Please Begin Yarnell Hill Fire Chapter XXII Here

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Chapter I, Chapter II, Chapter II supplement, Chapter III, Chapter IV, Chapter V, Chapter VI, Chapter VII, Chapter VIII , Chapter IX,  Chapter X, Chapter XI, Chapter XII , Chapter XIII, Chapter XIV,  Chapter XV,  Chapter XVI, Chapter XVII, Chapter XVIII, Chapter XIX, Chapter XX and Chapter XXI.

© Copyright 2016 John Dougherty, All rights Reserved. Written For: Investigative MEDIA

Comments

  1. Joy A. Collura says

    YARNELL FIRE NUMBER 3

    YEAH.

    my cell got smashed yesterday but I got an unusual text- I thought it was OLD so I called the number because it use to have name tied to number but the cell drop screwed my cell…anyways it was a text at 3:13pm when a local called fire dept and the fire dept DID NOT KNOW about smoke/fire in the hills NE at 2pm…wasn’t 4 million enough?

    keep you posted…maybe Alan Sinclair’s time making movie will be on pause to come handle another fire…heading to fire dept now…

    • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

      Alan Sinclair is assigned to the ‘Fuller’ fire at the moment.

      He MAY have only been ‘on set’ back on July 11 and 12 just to watch his son, Ethan Sinclair, play one of the FAKE ‘Blue River Hotshots’.

      In other words… no ‘contracted’ ongoing ‘commitment’ to the ‘FILLUM’.

        • Joy A. Collura says

          Nothing yet. I went to asses it by text locations… One near the church and one near five miles out. I called yfd and got message machine requesting call back on a 2pm call the chief received on a fire and I will be adding this to a request so need new FOIA form and its followup to this call because peeples valley FD and contracted dispatcher heard nothing on frequency for this area today. Man Hall and Whittaker are having a beautiful third and final round on ufc. I had to call and cancel out a surgeon… Based on their fabricated doc notes but all she added that did not match my sound recorded visit but what she added was a total cover her ass if surgery went wrong but never happened… I don’t care if she claims to be the best if you can lie as simple as first visit get to know and ready for surgery than what would you do if you foul up surgery…sure hate when people have angles and agendas and lies to make sure they are clear…God will handle them but they won’t cut on me…is our world just a bullshit or do I seem to draw it in…???

  2. Gary Olson says

    Muzzy says
    JULY 21, 2016 AT 7:14 PM

    So Gary,

    I read (can’t remember where) of at least two IHCs that prided themselves on their diverse membership. Was I dreaming?

    And I say, No…you are probably just confused by the alphabet soup of letters for all of these agencies, USFS, BLM, NPS, BIA, USF&WS. All of these wildland firefighters all look alike to YOU PEOPLE but there are HUGE differences between the primary federal agencies with wildland firefighting responsibilities.

    There are also very deep divides and interagency prejudices that rival the very worst racial issues that divide our country…most of them are fully justified. BUT…I would have to write a book (gee, now there is an idea) to explain what those are, the reasons for them, and all of the nuances in between those reasons that would fully explain them.

    But…back to what you are asking about. The USFS is like the military…it is generally color blind and a true equal opportunity employer as long as you aren’t a woman or gay, black, brown, white and every shade in between is okay…just as long as you are male…and straight.

    The BIA…not so much. Their agency is BUILT upon a sold foundation of complete and total Congressional, Judicial and Executive Branch approved racial discrimination that not only favors Native Americans, but hires ONLY (almost always, almost no exceptions) Native Americans.

    IF you want to know what kind of problems this policy CAN lead to,,,read this comment and multiply the problem times an entire federal agency at every level. And I do love my Native American brothers and sisters, but I am still THAT GUY!

    And of course, anytime you severely limit you pool of qualified candidates…you will accomplish two big things right away. You will hire only THOSE people and you WILL NOT get the best people and sometimes you will get only those people who are in completely over their heads and pose a real danger to themselves and the community they are supposed to be serving from their first day on the job.

    http://www.investigativemedia.com/please-begin-yarnell-hill-fire-chapter-xxii-here/#comment-342506

    Any more questions? If you have them, ask someone else.

    Oh…and one more thing just to show you how much I do love my Native American brothers and sisters, the bottom of the wildland firefighting barrel is without a doubt comprised of almost all Anglo people in…the National Park Service.

    They are “Numba 10”, as my old Vietnam vet crewmen used to say, except for those who came from the USFS. AND Native Americans have a long and proud tradition of fighting wildfires in this nation and many of them are “Numba 1.”

    I was raised on the Happy Jack (AKA Hopi Jack) Hotshots by a Native American crew boss who was one of the best and much of our crew was Native American. In addition, our district AFMO was Native American as was almost all of the rest of the district fire personnel back in the day. They were all some of the best who ever saddled up to hit the fire line.

    I am going to stop writing now before I go to far. Whoops….too late.

      • Gary Olson says

        Well…after so many years of total immersion, it becomes a way of life. And when I said, “Any more questions? If you have them, ask someone else.” I just meant more questions about the third rail…race relations and interagency politics to a lesser degree.

        The Prescott Fire Department of the GMIHC where just the tip of the iceberg and it really gets complicated when you go below the federal level to the myriad of other agencies who now play the game.

        It is all very tribal or maybe like the Game of Thrones? Although I. don’t think I have the cable package that has that show on it because I have never seen it…so that is a real shot in the dark while searching for an appropriate analogy.

  3. Gary Olson says

    Bob said,

    Bob Powers says
    JULY 22, 2016 AT 7:18 AM

    You are a real case of I am important and know it all.
    But if you check Woody wood pecker holds a copy right that will put you in court if you use it without a release to you. Yap its like Smokey.

    I expect you to be proud of your logo as I am of mine
    and I have two others that I worked with.
    CHILAO and SWATOOTH.

    I am as proud to have served on all three.
    OH we were building hot line and chasing the flames while your crews were MOPPING UP.

    Our LOGO was recognized nation wide I don’t even remember yours. Burnt trees that’s all you saw because they brought you in for mop up. Latrine duty ???????

    And I say, “I really do love you Bob…in a manly kind of way, not an Oak Grove Hotshot kind of way.”

    • Bob Powers says

      Just a game of hot shot jabs. No insults intended. Bump up, Bump up, Coming Through Coming Through. Love you to in a hot shot way.

      Hay have you noticed some crews have changed their Logos to new ones.

      • Gary Olson says

        No…I can’t even wrap my head around the fact that there are now over 100 hotshot crews from so many different agencies, much less learn their names or logos. I was raised with the supreme sense of superiority that ONLY the USFS should have hotshot crews.

  4. WantsToKnowTheTruth says

    **
    ** FISH OUT OF WATER

    Repy to Gary Olson post on July 21, 2016 at 2:02 am

    >> Gary Olson said…
    >>
    >> I am going to stick with my opinion that the name, the “Blue Ridge Hotshots”
    >> is in the public domain as well as the work Brian Frisby did on behalf of
    >> the American tax payers on the Yarnell Hill Fire while he was on the
    >> government payroll.
    >>
    >> So… the big question remains, why all the changes?
    >>
    >> And why the fuck couldn’t they have come up with a better logo than a fish
    >> jumping out of a river for a bad ass U.S. Forest Service Hotshot Crew and
    >> saved that logo for a movie about an anglers retreat or bed and breakfast
    >> in a “River Runs Through It” or whatever?
    >>
    >> The only thing worse would have been a Woody Woodpecker with a shovel
    >> over his head chasing some flames with a face… am I right?

    Well… maybe the (quote) “only thing worse” would be something along the lines of going to all that trouble to avoid any legal conflict(s) with the REAL “Blue Ridge Hotshots” Type 1 IHC organization’s name/logo ownership rights… and then just STEALING your FAKE logo for your FAKE Type 1 IHC Crew from yet ANOTHER legitimate and REAL Type 1 IHC Hotshot organization.

    As in… the “Salmon River Hotshots”, based in California.

    Here is a PUBLIC photo of the ACTUAL logo for the ACTUAL ‘Salmon River Hotshots’ showing a ‘river’ in the bottom half of the logo and a ‘Salmon’ jumping out of the river ( EXACTLY like the ‘made up’ logo for the movie’s FAKE ‘Blue River Hotshots’ )…

    The ‘Salmon River Hotshots’ logo is the first one on the far left in the top row on the following page…

    https://www.pinterest.com/pin/558446422516728833/

    And ( once again ), here is a PUBLIC photo posted from ‘the set’ of the ‘FILLUM’ showing their FAKE ‘Blue River Hotshots’ logo on the ‘Helmets’ sitting on the bumper of a vehicle…

    https://www.instagram.com/p/BHx_XUIju__/?taken-by=darineppich&hl=en

    The ‘movie people’ even used the same BLUE and YELLOW SKY-BACKGROUND colors for their FAKE ‘Blue River Hotshots’ logo as the REAL ‘Salmon River Hotshots’ logo.

    You. Just. Can’t. Make. This. Stuff. Up.

    I think if this 55-60+ MILLION dollar ‘FILLUM’ actually makes any money ( or even if it doesn’t? )… the REAL ‘Salmon River Hotshots’ in California should at least get a couple of new ATVs out of the deal.

    • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

      Here’s another PUBLIC photo posted from ‘the set’ of the ‘FILLUM’ with another view of the LOGO they are using for their FAKE ‘Blue River Hotshots’.

      Alan Sinclair’s own ‘relationship’ ( if any ) to the ‘FILLUM’ is still not known.. but he WAS somehow able to wrangle a part for his own son in the ‘FILLUM’.

      Ethan Sinclair is playing one of the FAKE ‘Blue River Hotshots’.

      Left to right in the following PUBLIC photo…
      Alan Sinclair, Josh Brolin, Ethan Sinclair, Alan Sinclair’s wife Colleen Dolly Sinclair

      Ethan Sinclair is ‘in costume’ and has on WFF-issue olive drab pants and a ‘dark-blue’
      T-Shirt with the ‘Blue River Hotshots’ logo on it…

      https://twitter.com/ASINCLAIR13/status/752693890201690113

      ** THE REAL ‘SALMON RIVER HOTSHOTS

      And here’s a PUBLIC ‘group photo’ of the REAL ‘Salmon River Hotshots’ posted in May of 2015…

      https://www.instagram.com/p/2sF9C7qeWb/

    • Gary Olson says

      Whoops…I didn’t mean to offend the Salmon River Hotshots, but I would have put some flames or black burnt trees in the logo. But…I was always a Go Big or Go Home kind of guy.

      • Gary Olson says

        That really does look like a bunch of guys in that photo I do NOT want to piss off. The more I look at it, the better I really like the Salmon River Hotshots logo with the beautiful salmon jumping out of that gorgeous river.

    • Muzzy says

      WTKTT says,”The ‘movie people’ even used the same BLUE and YELLOW SKY-BACKGROUND colors for their FAKE ‘Blue River Hotshots’ logo as the REAL ‘Salmon River Hotshots’ logo.”

      But the differences are even greater. The movie logo is much more simple and graphic, black fish on a light ground, three bold stripes. The Salmon River logo has way too much detail to read at 20 paces. In addition, their helmets are a bright blue. This will make it easier for the viewer to distinguish the two crews during the action scenes. I know you old hands can tell which
      crew is which, even in those group pix where each guy is as big as a flake of dandruff, but to the rest of us, those logos are a muddy mess. Add in the beat up helmets smudged with soot and we’re lost. That’s why the good guys always wore white hats.

      Now, they could have kept the name of BR, but they would have wanted to simplify and brighten their logo and helmets. Can you imagine the hew and cry that would result? Better to create a new unit and only piss off a few curmudgeons on a blog in a corner of the Internet ?

      • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

        Reply to Muzzy post on July 22, 2016 at 7:53 am

        >> Muzzy said…
        >>
        >> WTKTT says,”The ‘movie people’ even used the same BLUE
        >> and YELLOW SKY-BACKGROUND colors for their FAKE ‘Blue
        >> River Hotshots’ logo as the REAL ‘Salmon River Hotshots’ logo.”
        >>
        >> But the differences are even greater. The movie logo is much
        >> more simple and graphic, black fish on a light ground, three
        >> bold stripes. The Salmon River logo has way too much
        >> detail to read at 20 paces.

        Not an EXACT match ( detail-wise ), fer sure… but forget even the COLOR choices
        and the other ‘small details’ for a moment and you are still left with…

        ** The REAL “Salmon River Hotshots”
        ** LOGO is a Salmon jumping out of a River.

        ** The FAKE “Blue River Hotshots” ( created by the ‘movie people’ )
        ** LOGO is a Salmon jumping out of a River.

        Common denominator: The LOGO is a Salmon jumping out of a River.

        If push came to shove… I think the ‘movie people’ really WOULD owe the REAL “Salmon River Hotshots” enough to maybe buy a coupla new ATVs.

        The REAL point ( as with many of the things being discovered about this TRIBUTE ‘fillum’ )… is one of ‘competence’ and ‘attention to detail’ ( or lack thereof.

        It means the ‘movie people’, who were already choosing to change HISTORY and change the NAME of the “Blue Ridge Hotshots” to the “Blue River Hotshots” didn’t even lift a finger to CHECK and see if the FAKE logo ‘theme’ that they were designing was already ( technically ) “in use” by any other REAL Type 1 IHC Hotshot crew.

        I really did think these movie ‘props’ people were BETTER than that.

  5. WantsToKnowTheTruth says

    Reply to Gary Olson post on July 20, 2016 at 3:17 pm

    >> Gary Olson said…
    >>
    > The U.S. government does not have any intellectual property rights
    >> except that that are specifically provided for by federal law.
    >> For example, Smokey the Bear and his likeness, the U.S, Forest
    >> Service shield, the NPS arrowhead or the BLM triangle are
    >> all protected.
    >>
    >> Some things they let slide, but just try and use Smokey Bear’s
    >> likeness etc. in your business or hobby and you will find out
    >> just how serious the federal government takes those things… as
    >> in felony charges.

    You mean, like, as the top level BANNER on your non-US Forestry affiliated ‘Foundation’ page asking for ‘donations’?…

    Something like THIS… ( Smokey The Bear reading mail… )

    The Eric Marsh Foundation for Wildland Firefighters…
    https://www.facebook.com/ericmarshfoundationforwildlandfirefighters/

    Here is a direct link to that ‘Smokey the Bear reading his mail’ photo currently being used by that ‘Foundation’ for it’s own top-level BANNER image…

    NOTE: It even SAYS ‘Smokey’ on his HATBAND…

    https://scontent.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/12523206_961193240640526_3797220969372260465_n.jpg?oh=9d86d407d160c94704f411ce858c0e64&oe=57EE8DC1

    According to Wikipedia… the image of ‘Smokey the Bear’ isn’t just ‘copyrighted’ by the Federal Government, it is actually protected from unauthorized use by it’s OWN frickin’ special LAW… the ‘Smokey Bear Act of 1952’…

    ————————————————————————
    The fictional character Smokey Bear, created by the art critic Harold Rosenberg, is administered by three entities: the United States Forest Service, the National Association of State Foresters, and the Ad Council. Smokey Bear’s name and image are protected by U.S. federal law, the Smokey Bear Act of 1952 (16 U.S.C. 580 (p-2); 18 U.S.C. 711).
    ————————————————————————

    You cannot PRETEND you are associated with the ‘US Forestry Service’… if you are NOT.

    • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

      And here is just ONE small passage from the actual FEDERAL LAW named…
      The Smokey Bear Act of 1952 (16 U.S.C. 580 (p-2); 18 U.S.C. 711).

      From…
      http://www.fs.usda.gov/Internet/FSE_DOCUMENTS/fsmrs_100517.pdf
      ———————————————————————————
      Smokey Bear Act
      Act of May 23, 1952
      (P.L 82-359, Ch. 327, 66 Stat. 92;18 U.S.C 711; 16 U.S.C. 580p-2)

      Sec. 1.

      Whoever, except as authorized under rules and regulations issued by the Secretary of Agriculture after consultation with the Association of State Foresters and the Advertising Council, knowingly and for profit manufactures, reproduces, or USES the character “ Smokey Bear”, originated by the Forest Service, United States Department of Agriculture, in cooperation with the Association of State Foresters and the Advertising Council for use in public information concerning the prevention of forest fires, or any facsimile thereof, or the name ” Smokey Bear” shall be FINED not more than $250 or IMPRISONED not more then six months or BOTH.
      ———————————————————————————

      FINE… IMPRISONMENT…. or BOTH

      Again… you CANNOT try to make people think you are associated with the US Forestry Service ( by using its protected ICONS and IMAGERY )… when you are NOT.

      It’s ILLEGAL.

    • Gary Olson says

      I am pretty sure that is what I told you. There are no intellectual property rights for the U.S. Government except those that are specifically provided for by law…but for those that are…they take VERY seriously and the enforcement is very real.

  6. WantsToKnowTheTruth says

    **
    ** THE FAKE “MATT’S SALOON”

    Joy covered some of this i her post just below… but here is some more ‘detail’ and some ‘proof’ that this TRIBUTE film is probably going to give ‘Prescott’ a ‘clear miss’…

    Another ‘Question’ about the ‘FILLUM’ got answered today.

    Q: Will they be shooting any scenes in Prescott itself?

    A: Apparently NOT. It’s now been ‘confirmed’ that they have just selected various parts of downtown Sante Fe, New Mexico and they are just going to ‘pretend’ that is ‘downtown Prescott’.

    I know a lot of people were probably EXPECTING this TRIBUTE film crew to show in Prescott at SOME point… for SOMETHING… but it looks like they ( the movie people ) really are just going to give Prescott a ‘clear miss’ for this TRIBUTE film.

    http://www.abqjournal.com/810774/evangelos-is-back-in-the-movies.html

    From the article…
    ———————————————————————-
    PHOTO: A ‘made up’ sign that says “Matt’s Saloon” installed over the exiting “Evangelo’s Cocktail Lounge” sign at the corner of Galisteo and San Francisco street in downtown Sante Fe, New Mexico

    SANTA FE, N.M. — Evangelo’s Cocktail Lounge, the downtown Santa Fe institution at Galisteo and San Francisco, has become “Matts Saloon.”

    The temporary makeover is for a movie… “Granite Mountain”.

    It stars Josh Brolin, Jeff Bridges (who had a scene filmed in Evangelo’s for his Academy Award winning role in “Crazy Heart”) and Jennifer Connelly,

    Santa Fe stands in for Prescott, Ariz., for the movie.

    A replica old-timey advertisement mentioning Prescott has been painted on a wall across from “Matts Saloon.”
    ———————————————————————-

    There actually IS a REAL ( famous ) “Matt’s Saloon” in downtown Prescott… and it actually IS right there on ‘Whiskey Row’ by the Prescott Courthouse square and across the street from the ‘Prescott Brewing Company’.

    And they ( the movie people ) have apparently gotten permission to use the ACTUAL “Matt’s Saloon” sign from Prescott ( with a longhorn skeleton head mounted in the middle ) for their FAKE version of the place there in downtown Sante Fe. ( or maybe they did NOT get permission and are just using a duplicate of the sign, anyway? ).

    The website for the REAL “Matt’s Saloon” on Whiskey Row in Prescott, AZ is here..

    Matt’s Saloon (928) 771-8788 – 112 S Montezuma St., Prescott, Arizona
    http://www.mattssaloon.com/home.php

    “Matt’s Saloon” on Whiskey Row in Prescott was mentioned many times in the memorials and obituaries for some of the deceased Granite Mountain Hotshots.

    Just one example ( mentioning deceased GM Hotshot Kevin Woyjeck )…

    MEN’S JOURNAL
    Article Title: The Last Battle of the Granite Mountain Hotshots
    Author: Josh Eells
    h t t p : //w w w .mensjournal.com/features/articles/norman-reedus-the-wild-one-w209199
    —————————————————————————
    Aside from the occasional twinge of loneliness, Kevin Woyjeck was having a blast working as a Granite Mountain Hotshot. On his nights off, he’d go two-stepping at a honky-tonk called Matt’s Saloon, on Whiskey Row in downtown Prescott.
    —————————————————————————

    And ( as Joy was pointing out below ) there HAVE also been several ‘casting calls’ posted on the New Mexico Film Office’s PUBLIC ‘Bulletin Board’ for ‘extras’ who can TWO-STEP to show up on the set for work TODAY and TOMORROW ( and Friday ) there in Sante Fe…

    —————————————————————————
    11:12 am July 18, 2016

    Granite Mountain needs couples who know how to two-step to work on Granite Mountain on Wednesday and Thursday evening in Santa Fe. Send photos, height, weight, and phone number to castingabq (at) gmail.com with the subject “TWO-STEP.”

    9:58 am July 18, 2016

    EG Casting is looking for young Caucasian cowboy types (especially women) between 18-35 to work on a scene on Granite Mountain this Wednesday and Thursday (July 20 – 21) in the Santa Fe Area. It is a paid gig, and will likely go late into the night. If you own any western style clothing and you fit into this age range, feel free to submit. ONLY submit if you have NOT worked on this particular film yet. Send photo, height, weight, and phone number to castingabq (at) gmail.com with the subject “Bar.”

    12:50 pm July 20, 2016

    Granite Mountain, a feature film with Josh Brolin, Jeff Bridges and Miles Teller is looking for pretty girls to work in a scene tomorrow, Thursday July 21. Great bar dancing scene, good camera time. Email a photo with height, weight and phone number to castingabq (at) gmail.com. Put Pretty Girl in the subject line.

    8:05 pm July 20, 2016

    Granite Mountain starring Josh Brolin and Jeff Bridges is looking for men 18 to 36 to work in a bar scene with a bunch of pretty girls on Friday,July 22, an evening/night call. These are paid positions. Email a photo with height, weight and phone number to castingabq (at) gmail.com. Put MEN in the subject line.
    —————————————————————————

    • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

      Followup…

      Again… just a little ‘more detail’ backing up what Joy already posted below.

      A little ‘tea shop’ that is across the street from this ‘Evangelo’s Cocktail Lounge’ in downtown Sante Fe ( which the movie people have turned into the FAKE “Matt’s Saloon” from downtown Prescott ) confirmed that the movie was ‘shooting’ there today.

      The movie crew apparently took over the entire street and this little ‘tea shop’ put a sign out front offering ‘Free Tea’ to the “Granite Mountain” movie people.

      https://twitter.com/ArtfulTea/status/755851201162252288

      PUBLIC Twitter Photo caption says…
      ———————————————
      ArtfulTea – July 19, 2016 – 2:00 PM
      Filming #GraniteMountain on our street.
      Cast & crew invited in for iced tea.
      You, too, Jeff Bridges!

      ———————————————

      Sign ( in the photo ) says…

      ———————————————-
      WELCOME “GRANITE MOUNTAIN” FILM CREW!
      Complimentary Ice Cold Tea Inside!
      You too, Jeff!

      ———————————————-

      • John McCabe says

        Wow… you consider yourself an ‘investigator,’ yet speculate in such a biased manner of capitalizating certain words and oozing with passive aggressiveness– you sir are certainly far from a truth seeker. I am blown away by your sick obsession of such a tragedy that I can only think you have the exact chemical embalance as a serial killer. Do you have friends? Family? Children? Anything? Or do you spend every waking moment thinking about the death of others who did have a life filled with caring people and actual things to do? If you are truly someone who wants to ‘KNOW THE TRUTH’ then confront the people involved in person. Don’t hide behind your computer stalking innocent individuals you have never met, obsessing about their everyday lives, speculating about how they spend every second of their day, when you don’t have the Goddamn balls to face them in reality.

        • Joy A. Collura says

          John McCabe says
          JULY 20, 2016 AT 11:53 PM: If you are truly someone who wants to ‘KNOW THE TRUTH’ then confront the people involved in person.

          Good to see John here. Glad you popped on…Vow to keep 15-year-old John McCabe’s murder a secret lasted 42 years…your name made me think of that poor soul who the loved ones and investigators and just every day taxpaying civilians like us folks here who had to wait FORTY TWO years to have the answers come out about little old John…so there are way too many that ARE thankful for the efforts to bring out as much information to the world not ourselves or a select click of folks but THE WORLD so the world can get the information as it arrives and properly assess the fires well knowing that we all come from diverse lifestyles and backgrounds and everyone will perceive it different. Remember John, this is a pattern and not only 19 men died…the many losses on other fallen as well here locally due to the slurry drops and the NH3 and its trade secrets…that is reality…and I have seen a very horrific terrifying serial killer upfront (even had the prosecutor alert me way ahead of time of their release from prison) and the deception of a serial killers ways and I do not feel WWTKTT has been deceptive and its your opinion but it is not factual to make an assessment like such without details or sources or resources and for the most part if WWTKTT did not do some areas the way that person does we would not have reached some areas in clarity. NOW for confronting the people in person…I have tried that…even been in a court setting tied to the fire aftermath when its never been a place I ever been or think anyone should be in this modern world and I really left alot of documents out of that room so I would not throw people under the bus…http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:mh_FilGHEI8J:www.examiner.com/article/cronyism-nepotism-and-favoritism-a-small-town-courthouse+&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us…we live in a town and county where I was made aware is set up very tight knit and yet I have alot of health concerns and even that I am dealing with liars….you don’t want to lie to me…I will research and call it out…purge style or as I get it…but no way are you John going to tell me who eye-witnessed that fire-ME… both fires and think I am going to allow this just keep happening to more lives. I am deeply sorry we have human lives lost and their loved ones who can get sensitive or jump on us for keep looking but no way is it going to be allowed to just be GOD HAD THE PLAN FOR THEM when too many times there are just too many folks coming to me thanking us for the efforts here on IM…you cannot imagine how many peak here with their hand over their eyes but still read…alot in my opinion should not come here but their choice…I actually have tried to pull away at times myself…I am not obsessed or addicted to the site yet I do ramble…and I do not know where I would be if I did not have a free area to share how these fires have affected me that I have sold off alot of assets to make sure the loved ones were taken care of or the homeowners…the people that God led to me in all this…those people…they have to MOVE FORWARD to survive but they are sooooooooooooo thankful for IM page and for a place where the truth is STILL being seeked…NOW I have the balls to face any area in my life…I lead it with pure heart…I have always seen people twist and screw along the way when I touch an area that one thinks should not be touched.
          I am sure if you came here telling us your married life and kids and your LinkedIN…wwtktt may return you the favor but when you come as JOHN MCCABE where there are at least 100 of them in the world ranging in age 35-106 scattered all over…you look my name up sir you find just a few; some REAL like the lady in Florida and Wisconsin and some that uses my id as I check my annual report…so really glad you stopped by and hope you are not one of those POP-INS and are here to remain…enough rambles but I do not support this man’s comment comparing WWTKTT to a serial killer…very distasteful and maybe that was your dig…maybe you feel WWTKTT has been distasteful but if so NAME THE AREAS direct versus just popping in and recently reading the page because that screws alot of people up…POP INS…stay awhile…or do not waste your energy and stay off…but pop-ins do not add up to much in life…except Santa Claus or the tooth fairy…

        • Charlie says

          Joy found out that there was a John McCabe murdered at the age of 15 and then it took 42 years to solve the murder. That indeed is sad since closure was withheld from his family and friends, perhaps some died never knowing who killed that young person. You see,

          I know the feeling and sometimes watch America’s most wanted. John Walsh lost his 6 year old son and has never gotten a clue as to the rotton felon who took that child’s life.

          Crimes against people come in many forms. My own son had his arm ripped loose when he was caught up in a winch. You see as a miner I operated those types winches on what is called a slusher bucket. They have a valve and if perchance you get your glove caught up in the winch the second you remove the other hand from the valve control the winch immediately stops. However, those valves at times get defective and need to be replaced. In the case of my son the valve would stick and the winch would continue to run. His screaming as he was being torn apart in the winch brought his supervisor. You can imagine, the supervisor knew Ted was a beginning underwater welder–on his first job. The supervisor knew about the valve, he said he should have replaced it–but neglected to do so. The supervisor would have never hurt my son on purpose, yet he neglected to take care of something that was a real danger–especially to a new person learning on the job. His neglect caused a million dollar settlement, yet the incident eventually became a reason for my son’s death. No amount of money could replace his life, yet because some superintendent did not take safety precautions, he is no longer here. Like John Walsh, there is hardly a day goes by that I don’t think about him, something I am certain the folks that lost loved ones understand.

          WTKTT is a hero in discovering details and uncovering redactions to bring out the facts of what caused the deaths of the 19 GMHS crew. He is just one on this site that have worked and watched the true story and reasons the men died unfold. He is not the only one involved–most are retired or ongoing wild land fire fighters who are not happy that the tragedy has been hidden behind a smoke screen to save reputations. Dr. Ted Putnam says that many people just want to keep the blinders on–they rather accept what has been fed them and go on. He is one of the ones who does not accept the story as it has been told. He says it is tragic that people are trying to save face at the expense of future wild land lives. He has 15 years of smoke jumping experience, has investigated wild land fire deaths, such as the 14 that died at Storm King, and as a smoke jumper has actually saved young green wild land fire fighters of the ilk of Donut–when they were about to take action that was certain to cause their deaths. But he is only one among the many well experience wild land fire fighters that are unsettled to the story fed the public–these men have evidence contrary to the story being told by officials.

          If you have evidence to clear certain people, John McCabe, please let us have it. Right now we know that Marsh and Steed went against all safety rules called the ten and eighteen. Even the simple version initialed LCES were disregarded. Lookout, communication, escape route, and safety zone as I recollect and if you are a wild land fire fighter you should know how to apply these and why. Your supervisor should not only know these rules but strictly adhere to them. The lives of his men are dependent upon the common sense rules of what are called the ten and eighteen.

          When Marsh and Steed totally neglected to follow the rules and risked their mens lives by breaking all of them then we see what I would call a crime. Needlessly and neglectfully killing 17 can not make you a hero. Yet evidence shows that this is exactly what they did. Steed though it is understood did argue with Marsh–he knew the danger, yet for reasons still not revealed we yet can not publicly explain. Donut has withheld information for the longest of time–some he has put out in his book, although he says there is more to be revealed. He, as a green horn wild land fire fighter said the safety rules that keep wild land fighters alive are “Hillbilly”. He figured it was enough to rely on his estimation of things, or the “Greek Gods” above him. They let him down and if it were not for Blue Ridge Brian Frisby showing up on an ATV by accident, our humble friend Donut would be dead with the other GMHS. I think a hangover and sickness allowed him to replace the usual Lookout, another stroke of luck on his part. I never understood why he withheld vital information from the start–perhaps when he lawyered up, the advice was to keep mum–plenty others that had info were told to keep mum as well.

          If you condemn, WTKTT–you better add at least a hundred more people that want to get the facts out. I stood there with many of them where the men went down after the fire. I stood there only a short hour or so right at the spot they went down while I watched the raging wild fire take off. Joy wanted to take that route they took–it was deceptive. Those 17 men were killed by their bosses careless actions–sad but true. We keep being fed that this was totally Marsh’s decision to risk their lives for empty structures. I believe there were others insisting he bring his men down despite the risk and breaking of all common sense. Cowboy Rick McKensie, family here for 150 years had told them early that morning to not get caught down there in that manzanita with that fire taking off. But cowboys have lived this country–they know what can be done, and what can not.

            • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

              Reply to Diane lomas post on
              July, 28 2016, at 12:30 PM

              >> Diane lomas asked…
              >>
              >> Do the granite mountain families
              >> risk losing any of their benefits as a
              >> result of uncovering the truth of
              >> why the men died?

              You would think not… but the way things REALLY work ( in Arizona, anyway )… the answer is YES.

              There have been a number of credible reports ( some backed up with documentation obtained by InvestigativeMEDIA via valid FOIA requests ) that several of the “family members” have been treated VERY badly… to the point of being denied benefits and/or access to the millions of dollars donated by the public that was supposed to go to ALL ‘family members’.

              The ‘Arizona 100 Club’ became the ‘gatekeeper’ for these millions and millions of dollars in donations and THEY have apparently been the ones ‘controlling’ the disbursements only as THEY see fit.

              Stay on THEIR ‘good side’… and you possibly receive some of the publicly donated money . Piss THEM off… and you get NOTHING.

              There are also credible reports that family members like Marcia .McKee ( deceased hotshot Grant McKee’s mother ) have never even received one red cent of the automatic LODD ( Line Of Duty Death ) benefit guaranteed by LAW.

              Marcia McKee was the first to file a ‘wrongful death’ lawsuit on behalf of her son, Grant McKee.

              Many other family members eventually did the same thing… but Marcia McKee was the first.

              Marcia McKee did not ‘settle’ her lawsuit like other family members did.

              Her original ‘wrongful death’ lawsuit is supposedly still ‘on appeal’ along with GWO others… even as of this writing.

        • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

          Reply to John McCabe post on July 20, 2016 at 11:53 pm

          >> John McCabe said…
          >>
          >> Wow… you consider yourself an ‘investigator,’ yet speculate
          >> in such a biased manner of capitalizating certain words and
          >> oozing with passive aggressiveness– you sir are certainly far
          >> from a truth seeker. I am blown away by your sick obsession
          >> of such a tragedy that I can only think you have the exact
          >> chemical embalance as a serial killer. Do you have friends?
          >> Family? Children? Anything? Or do you spend every waking
          >> moment thinking about the death of others who did have a
          >> life filled with caring people and actual things to do? If you
          >> are truly someone who wants to ‘KNOW THE TRUTH’ then
          >> confront the people involved in person. Don’t hide behind
          >> your computer stalking innocent individuals you have never
          >> met, obsessing about their everyday lives, speculating about
          >> how they spend every second of their day, when you don’t
          >> have the Goddamn balls to face them in reality.

          Mr. McCabe… THANK YOU for taking the time to participate in this ongoing PUBLIC discussion of a Historic National Tragedy.

          Do you, yourself, have any thoughts/opinions on what the real “Lessons to Learn” from this tragedy might be… in order to try and ( as much as humanly possible ) PREVENT such a terrible thing from ever happening AGAIN?

    • Joy A. Collura says

      Well looks like the hikers may be in the movie…two stepping 🙂
      Not as the hikers…
      Sonny loves dancing…and he has his acting card…he was in Tank Girl …he came out of the whorehouse in that movie..

      Soft giggles.

  7. Joy A. Collura says

    Granite Mountain, a feature film with Josh Brolin, Jeff Bridges and Miles Teller is looking for pretty girls to work in a scene tomorrow, Thursday July 21. Great bar dancing scene, good camera time.

    Granite Mountain starring Josh Brolin and Jeff Bridges is looking for men 18 to 36 to work in a bar scene with a bunch of pretty girls on Friday,July 22, an evening/night call. These are paid positions.

    right around here:
    https://www.google.com/maps/uv?hl=en&pb=!1s0x87185040d353314d:0xa78763cd646fcd2d!2m5!2m2!1i80!2i80!3m1!2i100!3m1!7e115!4s//geo2.ggpht.com/cbk?panoid%3DWu1uQdmjpuGJPnQNoy8_cw%26output%3Dthumbnail%26cb_client%3Dsearch.LOCAL_UNIVERSAL.gps%26thumb%3D2%26w%3D130%26h%3D87%26yaw%3D133.10599%26pitch%3D0!5s+-+Google+Search&imagekey=!1e2!2sWu1uQdmjpuGJPnQNoy8_cw

  8. Cheerleader says

    Looks like they’re looking for new extras:

    Granite Mountain feature film is now casting Caucasian men and women to work several days next week in the new movie. Producers are also looking fo rolder men and women who have not worked on the movie yet. Filming will take place next week in Santa Fe, New Mexico.

    Casting for Granite Mountain film with Josh Brolin and Jeff Bridges. Need Caucasian men and women (18-30) to work several days next week on Granite Mountain. Also casting people older people, submit if you have NOT worked on GM. Some of the dates will be in and around the SF area. Send a photo, height, weight, and phone number to castingabq@gmail.com with the subject Friends and Family.

  9. Robert the Second says

    Here is another link to a fairly comprehensive and well written research paper on the subject of Human Factors influencing the fatalities on the YH Fire, by Peter Vidmar of Trinity University (San Antonio,Texas).

    There is a Peter Vidmar that is a Senior Firefighter, Canon City Helitack Crew out of Pueblo, CO.

    The author speaks with a fairly keen knowledge and authority on the subject.

    The paper is titled: “Framing Tragedy: Rhetorical Strategies and Effects in the Wake of the Yarnell Hill Fire Fatalities.”

    https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&ved=0ahUKEwjMvJ3dpYPOAhUCLmMKHbdGAtUQFggcMAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fpetervidmar.weebly.com%2Fuploads%2F2%2F6%2F6%2F9%2F26691936%2Fhcommisgranitemountain.docx&usg=AFQjCNHhgpLS7H47PF4XkVVZdwuSsVnbEA&sig2=YDR5X_JJw0nZ2ONlBlVkDg&bvm=bv.127521224,d.cGc&cad=rja

    After discussing and then suggesting that “They [GMHS] and many other crews felt pressured not only to produce line, but also place themselves in harms’ way to defend empty structures” and that is why “they likely left the safety of the black so that they may reengage with the fire in the structures around the ranch and in the town of Yarnell.”

    He concludes his paper with this regarding Human Factors: “Echoing the feeling of Ted Putnam following the South Canyon Fire, there is not enough organizational focus on the many and varied human factors. It can and should be the place of the academe to offer examples of how they might be considered in novel and useful ways.”

    • Charlie says

      Sometimes I wonder if the country is producing too many educated idiots. It is fine to have a bat hide to hang on your wall–Joy found mine blown into the desert–proof I spent my time in the confines of modern education. But it is quite often the simplest people that have the wisdom sometimes lacking in the educated idiot variety. When Rick McKensie told the GMHS crew on the morning of their demise not to get caught down in that manzanita if that fire is anywhere near, he was using what my Dad used to say was common horse sense. You know that if you get lost and happen to be horse back, give the horse rein–that horse will take you home.

      Experience that Rick had as a cowboy and bow hunter working in and around that manzanita made him fully aware of the danger of getting caught up in it. I too have had my share of working in dense manzanita–forget attempting to run through it–it just can’t be done. In fact Joy and I worked our way through that very basin and experienced the density. I call it bear wallow material where about the only thing that can do a good job getting through it is a bear rolling himself through. There were plenty areas so thick you could see where that had happened–but humans do not have the tough hide of a bear and chain sawing through it is a slow process. One thing is certain once in it you certainly want to work your way out–get to that two track was the best option and once there stay on it and get to the other side of the Weavers where there is a deficit of mazanita and you can work yourself down the West side in an upright stance.

      The people we hiked all declined to attempt the manzanita patches in the area that had not burned–it was enough for them to see the mess–why go through a briar patch?

      If those GMHS were trained by a professional wild land fire fighing school they should get their money back.

      Then we consider that they had at first refused and Marsh suggested Blue Ridge–yet eventually gave in to pressure. They were wanted to work near Glen Isla to do their second bidding–structure protection. The fellows above their grade knew they were on a mountain and would be coming downhill with a fire raging that could turn at any time–their own meteorological reports has warned them of 45mph gusts likely to reverse the fire at any time. I saw the storms from top of the Weavers and the two track–I did not need the report to know what was apt to happen. Experience of living the deserts and hills since childhood in tents and outdoors gave me that understanding. Now I wonder if
      the idea that mixing of wild land fire fighting and structure protection is a good idea. I don’t see Pulaski’s and garden hoses much help in a wild land fire the magnitude of what we saw that day of June 30, 2013. But as Willis has said, they could not just set there in the black, they wanted to protect structures–thats what they do–which he meant is what they did before being ordered down there.

  10. WantsToKnowTheTruth says

    >> On July 20, 2016 at 11:11 am, Muzzy said…
    >>
    >> BTW, concerning the question of whether the Donut rescue by BR
    >> was accidental or planned, I believe it was planned in that BR
    >> knew they would probably have to rescue the crew buggies and
    >> other equipment, as had happened on other fires. Frisby was
    >> probably more aware of both Donut’s position and what the fire
    >> was doing than anyone on the fire, so he “swung by” to see if
    >> he could help. That sounds like a PLAN by a guy who didn’t want
    >> the hero treatment, just a guy who was doing his job…

    >> On July 20, 2016 at 1:33 pm, Robert the Second ( RTS ) replied…
    >>
    >> Muzzy…. Thanks for posting this. I have felt this way all along about
    >> the BRHS scooping McDonough.
    >>
    >> I always thought Frisby was a lot more aware and cognizant of the
    >> deteriorating fire weather and increasing fire behavior. The GMHS’ and
    > their cavalier attitude toward McDonough and his way-too-close trigger
    >> point, with no heads up by his own Crew, gave that away.

    Muzzy ( and RTS ).

    You are both completely WRONG about whether Frisby’s ‘rescue’ of Brendan McDonough had anything to do with Brian Frisby DECIDING to ‘go check on him’ even without being told/asked to do so.

    It didn’t ( as per Brian Frisby himself ).

    Just a little over an HOUR after Frisby ‘accidentally’ stumbled across Brendan out there near the old-grader as he was on his way out to meet Marsh for that second face-to-face Marsh had requested at 3:26 PM… Brian Frisby himself was RECORDED by Prescott National Forest employee Aaron Hulburd telling THEM ( Hulburn, Jason Clawson and KC ‘Bucky’ Yowell ) that he had (quote) “just happened to stumble upon the lookout”.

    We don’t even need any ‘Unit Logs’ or ‘Interviews’ to confirm this.

    The RECORDING has Brian Frisby himself SPEAKING and TELLING Hulburd, Clawson and Yowell that he only accidentally ‘stumbled upon the lookout’ as he was driving out to meet Marsh.

    Brendan McDonough himself testified that HE ( McDonough ) believed Frisby had been specifically ‘coming to get him’ even before McDonough could even make a request that he do so… and McDonough apparently STILL believes this ‘fantasy’… since he said that is what happened in his own ‘for profit’ BOOK…

    …but McDonough is ( and always has been ) MISTAKEN.

    That is NOT what happened… and even just a little over an HOUR after ‘the rescue’ we have the actual RECORDING of Brian Frisby himself saying that is NOT what happened.

    Just for REFERENCE… here is a ’roundup’ of how this ‘moment’ has been portrayed in all the for-profit BOOKS that have been published so far, followed by ‘the Horse’s Mouth’… and Brian Frisby’s OWN account.

    From the ‘books’ ( in the order they have been published )…

    Kyle Dickman’s book “On the Burning Edge”…
    ———————————————————
    Just before the weather update about the wind shift, Marsh had called Frisby requesting another face-to-face meeting. Things were changing quickly. He wanted to coordinate Blue Ridge’s and Granite Mountain’s efforts. Frisby agreed and took off in the Razor to meet with Marsh on the ridge for another talk.

    He never got there.

    By the time he reached the little clearing, Donut was standing by the grader with his radio in his hand, looking stunned. He’d just keyed the mic to call Blue Ridge– the only way for Donut to be extracted from hell– when he saw that Frisby was already there. Frisby whipped the Razor into a U-turn. Donut handed him the radio and said, “Talk to Steed and Marsh.” Donut wanted them to hear from Frisby that he was safe. “I’ve got Donut and he’s leaving his lookout,” Frisby said. “The fire activity is picking up and we’re moving our rigs. Do you want us to move yours?” “Affirm,” said Marsh. He watched as Frisby floored the ATV and they raced away ahead of the flames.
    ———————————————————

    NOTE: This is actually fairly accurate, including the TIME ( circa 3:26 PM ) when Marsh first requested that second ‘face-to-face’ with Frisby… and NO mention of ANY thoughts on either Marsh’s or Frisby’s part of ‘checking on Brendan’ in any way, shape or form. The ‘rescue’ was ‘accidental’.

    Fernanda Santo’s book “The Fire Line”…
    ———————————————————
    McDonough had to get out of there. He was about to call Frisby, the Blue Ridge Hotshots’ superintendent, and ask him for a ride out of the wild, when Frisby zipped by in his ATV and stopped. McDonough hopped aboard. Steed radioed McDonough and said, “I’ve got eyes on you and the fire, and it’s making a good push.” Frisby stomped on the gas, zoomed past the old grader, and made a beeline to the spot where Granite Mountain had parked its buggies on a patch of yellowed grass.
    ———————————————————

    NOTE: Fernanda Santos makes absolutely NO mention of the fact that the only reason Frisby was ‘zipping by’ Brendan’s location in his ATV, at that time, was because he was heading up for a that second face-to-face meeting that Marsh had requested circa 3:26 PM, just BEFORE the crucial weather report. According to Santos… there was absolutely NO reason at all being given to the reader WHY Frisby was anywhere near Brendan at that time. As if Frisby was just out ‘joy riding’ in his ATV and ‘zipping by’ Brendan’s location when he ‘accidentally’ saw him.

    Santos is also totally mistaken that the ‘rescue’ took place at the ‘old-grader’, or even just WEST of there.

    She is WRONG. It did NOT.

    According to Brendan’s own (public) ADOSH testimony… Brendan emerged from the brush at the same ‘T-intersection’ where he had been ‘dropped off’ earlier that afternoon… which was some distance EAST of the old-grader itself.

    If Brendan HAD ’emerged’ WEST of that ‘T-intersection’ and near the old-grader, Brian Frisby would NOT have ‘stumbled across him’ as he drove by out there on that main two-track.

    BTW: Of all the for-profit BOOKS published ( so far, anyway ), the Santos ‘tome’ is the one that, by far, contains the MOST factual inaccuracies.

    Now here is Brendan’s own version, as he tell it in his own for-profit BOOK.

    Even in his own recently published book he seems to still be under the delusion that Brian Frisby had arrived at his location specifically because he was ‘concerned’ about him.

    That was NOT the case.

    To this day… Brendan seems incapable of believing that it was a complete and total ‘accident’ that Frisby happened to ‘stumble upon him’ when he did.

    Brendan McDonough’s book “My Lost Brothers”…
    ———————————————————
    I was fighting back thoughts of burning up, of feeling the fire rush out at me from the brush around me. Not having eyes on the fire was the worst part. You feel like you’re going to turn your head and the fire is going to come rushing at you through the trees with no warning. A wave that will burn you alive in three seconds.

    I burst out of the brush at the clearing and brought the radio up to my mouth. I was going to call Brian, the Blue Ridge super. The dozer was there and I was about to hit the button for a pickup when I saw something rolling into the far edge of the clearing on fat black wheels.

    I couldn’t believe what I was seeing. Was it a mirage? I ran toward it, and saw it was the Blue Ridge UTV. I felt a huge weight lift off me.

    Brian Frisby had seen the flames moving toward me and had anticipated my need for a ride out— Eric had asked for a face-to-face meeting, so Brian swung by my position on the way.

    I hopped on and handed Brian the radio so he could talk directly to Jesse and Eric.
    This guy just saved my life, I thought.

    ———————————————————

    NOTE: In addition to being mistaken about Frisby ‘anticipating’ Brendan’s need for a ‘ride out’… Brendan’s mention of the ‘dozer being there’ ( where he emerged ) doesn’t even match his own testimony to ADOSH that he did NOT emerge at the ‘old-grader’ at all… but EAST of there at the ‘T-Intersection’ where Frisby had dropped him off earlier in the day.

    ***** Now here is the “Horse’s Mouth”.

    Brian Frisby’s OWN words, as he was speaking to Prescott National Forest employees Aaron Hulburd, Jason Clawson, and KC ‘Bucky’ Yowell… a little more than an hour after having ‘stumbled upon’ Brendan and ‘rescuing’ him.

    NOTE: The following has actually been posted 3 or 4 times.

    Here is just one link back to where it appeared in Chapter 19 of this ongoing discussion…

    http://www.investigativemedia.com/please-begin-yarnell-hill-fire-chapter-xix-here/#comment-324945

    From Aaron Hulburd’s VIDEO with filename M2U00271, at the moment when Frisby was ‘talking’ to him and Clawson and Yowell… and Hulburd was ‘recording’ that conversation…

    Video M2U00271 in the Public Evidence Record…
    ———————————————————-
    +0:31 ( 1729:31 / 5:29:31 PM )
    ( Brian Frisby ): …and Eric decided that the trail that kinda follows that ridge… in the green… ( ? that that’s the route )… and that lookout was down below… and I went in to go tie in with Eric… and that’s when it picked up. I just happened to stumble upon the lookout… without the… ( ? rest of ’em )… and I grabbed him… and then we got the rigs out.

    ———————————————————-

    The words coming out of Brian Frisby’s OWN mouth, on June 30, 2013…

    “I just happened to stumble upon the lookout.”

    It will be very interesting to see how the for-profit ‘FILLUM’ depicts ‘the rescue’.

    As a PLAN ( which it wasn’t ).
    As a total ‘accident’? ( which it was ).
    As… ???… something else?

    Maybe they will decide the more ‘exciting’ depiction would be to have actor Miles Teller ( McDonough ) being already almost surrounded by flames and actuallly contacting actor Rene Herrera ( Frisby or Farsby or whatever NAME they are giving him as a FAKE ‘Blue River Hotshot’ ) and we see Rene Herrera ONLY THEN ‘racing’ out to ‘save’ Miles Teller with the best 3D CGI and exciting MUSIC that Hollywood has to offer.

      • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

        Reply to Muzzy post on July 20, 2016 at 5:35 pm

        >> Muzzy said…
        >>
        >> I’m sure that’s how he presented it.
        >> What was he supposed to say,
        >> “Yeah, I knew Marsh would leave Donut out
        >> to get crispycrittered so I swung around to pick
        >> him up. You should have seen that puny
        >> assed safety zone they picked out!”

        I think the moment that Brian Frisby and Trueheart Brown dropped Brendan off at the ‘T-Intersection’ just east of the old-grader… right around 12:30 PM… they knew very well that there was NO VALID SAFETY ZONE there in that area… regardless of what Jesse Steed or Eric Marsh had told Brendan.

        That’s probably where the offer of “If you need us… just call us and we’ll come get you” came from.

        It wasn’t an idle ‘favor’ being offered.

        They knew damn well that if this kid got into trouble… SOMEONE with a 4 wheeler was going to HAVE to come and get him…. and since Granite Mountain had managed to get theirs ‘crispycrittered’ on another fire and hadn’t even bothered to replace it… they knew it was “Tag… you’re it” as far as anyone even HAVING a UTV/ATV out there in that area that day.

        But that still doesn’t mean that factored into Frisby’s thinking at 3:26 PM, when Marsh inexplicably asked Frisby to eat dust for 15 minutes and come ALL THE WAY back UP there… for some still-unknown reason….

        …and then Frisby ( who had a lot going on himself at that point ) also inexplicably agreed to that ‘request’, at that late hour, and dropped what he was doing to go UP there.

        There’s still never been a good explanation as to WHY Marsh wanted Frisby to schlep his ass all the way back UP to the ridge at that crucial point in the burn cycle.

        It HAD to be because of something Eric Marsh wanted Frisby to SEE… and to SEE it in a way that Marsh thought only the view from the ridge would provide.

        Otherwise… why not just DISCUSS whatever Marsh had in mind over the radio?

        The entire ‘second face-to-face’ still doesn’t even really make much sense… and no one has been able to successfully interview Frisby ( and/or Brown ) to determine if there is MORE to be known about what the second ‘face-to-face’ was even SUPPOSED to be ABOUT ( versus just discussing something over the radio ).

        >> Muzzy also said…
        >>
        >> At that point, he didn’t know they were all goners.
        >> He was too much of a gentleman/team player to
        >> admit that he was cleaning up after Marsh, as
        >> others had done before.

        Well… there’s the rub… eh?

        We still have NO IDEA what Type 1 IHC Superintendent Brian Frisby might have ‘thought’ about Eric Marsh and/or the entire GM organization.

        He MAY actually be someone who, himself, ended up ‘not too surprised’ that they got themselves killed.

        The ‘essence’ of him ( and the other Blue Ridgers ) religiously dodging all attempts to interview them for all this time might be because they are still trying, with all their might, not to ADMIT that they, themselves, thought Granite Mountain was just “an accident looking for a place to happen”… and then they found the place.

        Perhaps it’s just a simple as a full commitment to the “If you don’t have anything good to say… don’t say anything at all” approach.

        As for “that might just be the way Frisby presented it” ( rescuing Brendan )… I don’t think there’s any reason to doubt that it really was all just as ‘matter of fact’ as Frisby described it.

        From listening to all the radio traffic and other off-the-cuff recordings that captured Frisby speaking… I don’t think he was known for being any kind of ‘Chatty Kathy’ either ON or OFF the radio.

        We don’t HEAR the ‘question’ that either Jason Clawson, Aaron Hulburd or KC ‘Bucky’ Yowell actually ASKED him in that M2U00271 video.

        All we hear is Frisby’s ‘matter of fact’ short ‘report’…

        1. I was on my way out to tie in with Eric ( as he requested ).
        2. I happened to STUMBLE upon the lookout.
        3. I got HIM ( and only him ) out of there.
        4. We then got all the buggies out of there.

        Bada-bing. Bada-boom.

        Dem’s just ‘da facts’.

        And I think those WERE ‘da facts’.

        In other words… I don’t think at that point where we hear Frisby speaking that he was ‘filled’ with ANY sorts of urges to even ‘downplay’ what he was thinking or feeling… or that the whole situation was an unfolding ( but not unexpected ) ‘fuck up’ on Granite Mountain’s part.

        Someone asked him how it was that Brendan was not WITH the others… or something along those lines… and he simply TOLD them.

        No editorializing needed.

    • Robert the Second says

      McDonough posted in his book:

      “I WAS FIGHTING BACK THOUGHTS OF BURNING UP, OF FEELING THE FIRE RUSH OUT AT ME. NOT HAVING EYES ON THE FIRE WAS THE WORST PART. YOU FEEL LIKE YOU’RE GOING TO TURN YOUR HEAD AND THE FIRE IS GOING TO COME RUSHING AT YOU THROUGH THE TREES WITH NO WARNING. A WAVE THAT WILL BURN YOU ALIVE IN THREE SECONDS.” (EMPHASIS ADDED).

      “I WAS FIGHTING BACK THOUGHTS OF BURNING UP, OF FEELING THE FIRE RUSH OUT AT ME.”

      This sounds to me like he had already experienced this before.

      “NOT HAVING EYES ON THE FIRE WAS THE WORST PART.”

      No lookout or anyone watching the fire to notify him of danger? Sounds like he had done this before also, AND gotten away with it. LCES? What’s that?

      “YOU FEEL LIKE YOU’RE GOING TO TURN YOUR HEAD AND THE FIRE IS GOING TO COME RUSHING AT YOU THROUGH THE TREES WITH NO WARNING. A WAVE THAT WILL BURN YOU ALIVE IN THREE SECONDS.”

      Again, this sounds to me like he had already experienced this before, maybe on the ‘Nevada’ [Holloway] Fire or the Doce Fire or ??.

      This entire paragraph suggests to me that he had actually experienced this before and he was merely recounting it for his book, for the ‘drama’ of it all.

      Remember, at least Fire Order Number 10 (Fight fire aggressively having provided for safety first), was HILLBILLY, and he/they were much smarter than that.

      • Muzzy says

        RTS,

        Go to the book at:

        https://books.google.com/books?id=PYqDCgAAQBAJ

        Use the search box to find “Jesse set the anchor” to find a passage about another close call during the Doce Fire.

        I’d be curious to hear your assessment of the situation he describes. Is he tarting it up, or were they close to death? It sounds like a stupid, unsafe action on their parts to me, though not quite as stupid as leaving good black to go into a box canyon during an outflow event on a fire front, but still. What do you think?

      • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

        Reply to Robert the Second (RTS) post on July 20, 2016 at 8:13 pm

        >> RTS said…
        >>
        >> “I WAS FIGHTING BACK THOUGHTS OF BURNING UP, OF FEELING
        >> THE FIRE RUSH OUT AT ME.”
        >>
        >> This sounds to me like he had already experienced this before.

        Yep. No telling how MANY times… but definitely at least just 12 DAYS before Yarnell, on the Doce Fire.

        The ‘descriptions’ about the fire ‘engulfing him’ he uses as he describes his thoughts coming off his lookout mound match what is in the actual PROLOGUE of McDonough’s book.

        His book STARTS OUT ( the PROLOGUE itself ) with him re-counting the near-death experience that he and Christopher MacKenzie had just 12 days before Yarnell, on the Doce fire.

        They had just ‘arrived’ there… and Jesse Steed pointed at some thick-brush area and told McDonough and MacKenzie to ‘burn it out’.

        They picked a spot and literally ‘waded INTO’ Brush that was head-high and so thick it was knocking their helmets off as they worked their way through it.

        And then they just fired up their drip-torches and started ‘lighting things up’.

        Next thing they know… McDonough and MacKenzie find themselves caught in the middle of what appears to have been an ‘area ignition’ being caused by their OWN drip-torches and the fires they were lighting in the head-high brush.

        They barely made it out alive.

        They ended up having to THROW their drip-torches AWAY from themselves as far as they could to stop the ‘area ignitions’ right around themselves, and then crawl on their hands and knees UNDER the thick brush to make it back out to the ashphalt road where they had come from.

        Even in his PROLOGUE… Brendan admits they “Chose the wrong place to go in” and they had ‘underestimated’ how DRY and EXPLOSIVE that fuel really was.

        Brendan CLOSES this ‘dramatic PROLOGUE’ to his own book by saying that after crawling back to the road in the nick of time with MacKenzie… he wanted to QUIT being a Hotshot right then and there.

        But he didn’t. He continued working the Doce Fire, and went to Yarnell with everyone else just 12 days later.

        • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

          Followup…

          I know that the person who was REALLY writing ‘Brendan’s book’ ( author Stephan Talty – ‘Captain Phillips’ ) was just ‘doing his job’ as a writer and was the one who must have convinced Brendan that before the book got ‘into’ all the drug-use and heroin addiction and stuff that they needed to “hook the readers” and “pull them in” with something EXCITING…

          …but I’m still not sure using that ‘near-death’ experience that McDonough and MacKenzie had on the ‘Doce’ fire was the best way to do that.

          I think a lot of ‘readers’ might have been like me.

          I started reading the ‘book’ with the most open mind possible… but by the time I reached the end of that PROLOGUE… I really only had one distinct impression.

          “THESE are the kinds of guys who are supposed to be the ‘elite’ Navy Seals of Wildland Firefighting? People who ‘chose the wrong place’ to enter head-high explosively-dry fuel and don’t even seem to know what COULD ( and did happen ) the minute they started ‘lighting it all up’?”

          “What a bunch of DUMBASSES”.

          And if you believe this ‘story’ that Brendan told about happened to him and Christopher MacKenzie just 12 days before Yarnell… how they both almost ‘bought the farm’ in head-high explosive fuel because of bad decision making…

          …then you have to pause for a moment and think again about poor Christopher MacKenzie himself.

          McDonough “left the building” and was not WITH them as they all made that risky move… but circa 4:25 PM or so… there was Christopher MacKenzie finding himself ( once again ) ‘pushing through’ head-high super-dry explosive fuel, with no ‘eyes on the fire’… and watching the SMOKE just build and build and build over his head as they kept ‘bushwhacking’ towards some dubious destination that ‘lie ahead’ ( somewhere ).

          I’ll bet every ALARM was ‘going off’ in his head and he was probably THINKING of what happened just 12 days earlier… and how he ALMOST died THAT time.

          But the Just. Kept. Moving. Forward.

          Never taking the time to ‘re-evaluate’ their situation and their ‘decision making’.

          It remains TRULY ‘tragic’.

          • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

            Whoops. TYPO up above.

            Should have read like this…

            —————————————————————-
            But THEY Just. Kept. Moving. Forward.

            Never taking the time to ‘re-evaluate’ their situation and their ‘decision making’.

            It remains TRULY ‘tragic’.
            —————————————————————-

          • Gary Olson says

            As I have said before…several times…if anybody is an elite Navy SEAL type in wildland firefighting…it is smokejumpers. Hotshots…if there is any comparison to a military branch…are the Marines.

            And you get what you pay for…YOU don’t put enough money into recruiting, training or retaining hotshots to have all squared away hotshots…you are lucky you get as many as you do.

            And however you cut it…hotshots are the best of the best….even if the best of the best are not as good as you think they should be…or they really need to be.

      • The Truth Will Always Remain Elusive says

        The real question regarding this commentary is why didn’t someone from the rest of the crew (who knew that Brendan had left his look-out spot when the fire had chased him out) act as HIS look-out, and show some concern for HIS safety, when the fire had already run him off of his lookout point??

        To me, this question looms large, because at THAT point in time, the look-out was the ONLY one in any sort of danger, and all of the accounts and reports including Brendan’s own accounts, indicate the he was seemingly left to fend for himself when his life was clearly in danger.

        • Robert the Second says

          TTWARE,

          This was discussed in some detail several chapters back and I have been unable to find it.

          You are absolutely correct here.

          The GMHS Overhead were pretty cavalier and slack in this regard, allegedly acting as his Lookout, since the GMHS had the best overall vantage and Lookout points of anyone on the entire YH Fire.

          As you put it: “he was seemingly left to fend for himself when his life was clearly in danger.”
          More to the point, he WAS left to fend for himself.

          It was as if McDonough was down there entirely on his own, setting his own WAY-TOO-CLOSE trigger point, watching and waiting TOO LONG before leave once he hit his trigger point, and then contemplating where to go to DEPLOY his fire shelter rather than head up to the black above him.

        • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

          Reply to The Truth Will Always Remain Elusive ( TTWARE )
          post on July 21, 2016 at 9:24 am

          >> TTWARE said…
          >>
          >> all of the accounts and reports including Brendan’s own accounts,
          >> indicate the he was seemingly left to fend for himself when his
          >> life was clearly in danger.

          Throughout ALL of his ‘interviews’ following the tragedy… Brendan seemed to have been ‘coached’ to not make a ‘big deal’ out of this ‘evacuation’ from his lookout post.

          And he was TRUE to that ( apparent? ) ‘coaching’ when being interviewed by the SAIT ( once ) and ADOSH ( TWICE ).

          It was ‘no big whoop’ ( according to Brendan ).

          Then… his FOR-PROFIT book comes out and now it’s all a “close encounter of the deadly kind” and he’s talking about how he thought he might be engulged by flames even when he was just walking down from the mound.

          But regardless of McDonough’s own ongoing CREDIBILITY issues… YOU are RIGHT.

          The ONLY ‘evidence’ that has arisen to date that shows there was any real concern on either Marsh’s or Steed’s part for Brendan McDonough’s welfare after he left them and was driven down to that ‘lookout mound’ at 12:25 PM by Blue Ridge Hotshots Brian Frisby and Trueheart Brown is that ‘conversation’ Brendan reports having with Jesse Steed, circa 3:33 PM, just after Byron Kimball’s crucial ‘weather report’ hit the radio.

          McDonough said that immediately after that 3:30 PM weather report from Kimball about the approaching 40-50 mph wind gusts and expected fireline ‘reversaly’.. he and Steed ‘decided’ ( together ) that it was time for Brendan to leave that lookout mound.

          But then that is it.

          Steed’s only ‘advice’ to Brendan when Brendan confirmed he was leaving that mound was “Okay. Cool. Do what you need to do”.

          Nothing like…

          “Brendan… you better haul your ass UP HERE to this SAFE BLACK like RIGHT NOW… and I mean DOUBLE-TIME or better… you might be in deep shit soon.”

          OR

          “Brendan… you better press that radio button and CALL BLUE RIDGE to come and get you like RIGHT NOW… and make SURE they still have a functioning UTV within range to do that… or you could be in deep shit REAL soon.”

          Nope. NOTHING like that from Brendan’s direct supervisor ( or from DIVSA Marsh ) and the men that were responsible for his safety.

          AND… no evidence whatsoever that Marsh or Steed themselves ever lifter a finger ( or pushed a radio button ) to make SURE for THEMSELVES that this critical ‘going to get Brendan’ operation was even going to be possible at that critical moment in time.

          Just… “Okay. Cool. Do what you need to do”.

  11. Gary Olson says

    Muzzy did a good job of bringing my thoughts on the Battlement Creek Fire forward which saved me some searching…so thanks for that. I don’t have much to add except to reaffirm that we knew exactly where the Mormon Lake crew was and they knew exactly where we were, the shift plan told us or we could have looked up and seen them working if we would have wanted or needed to see where they were at.

    If Shawna Legarza would have been honest with the job she was entrusted with in the name of wildland firefighter safety, the six minutes for safety would have discussed the importance of NOT having an incompetent fire overhead coming up with a plan to have one hotshot crew start a burn out below another one…on purpose.

    And yes…people have always made a big deal about Tony being head down burning with the others. Why not? He had already done what a crew boss was supposed to do, he had identified the impending threat and he had sent most of his crew to safety. It’s just that in his arrogance he wanted to finish burning out their line and thought those he kept with him and he could make it out at the last minute, but he was wrong.

    The analogy that I use is if a track repair foreman thought he had to finish pounding in some spikes before the train got to their job site because management had sent the train on it’s way before their work was completed, but told the repair crew to be sure and get out the way BEFORE the train got to where they were working but also get the job done BEFORE they leave.

    The crew boss looked up, saw the train coming, sent the majority of his crew to safety but kept a select team with him to pound in the last few spikes. And because the train was almost upon them, he picked up a sledgehammer to hammer spikes as well to hurry up and get the job done, but he badly misjudged how fast the train was going, or would be going.

    • Gary Olson says

      Oh…and one more thing. The U.S. government does not have any intellectual property rights except that that are specifically provided for by federal law. For example, Smokey the Bear and his likeness, the U.S, Forest Service shield, the NPS arrowhead or the BLM triangle are all protected.

      Another good example is the readily identifiable outline of a federal agent badge because that could be duplicated and used as a master key that opens almost every door. It is a federal felony to be in possession of a federal badge or the likeness of a federal badge if you are not a sworn federal agent. But almost everything else is in the public domain, books, writing, manuals, photographs…you name it, you own it. Or at least you are a c- owner along with approximately 350 million other U.S. citizens.

      I’m pretty sure the name of the Blue Ridge hotshots and their crew symbol which used to be a firefighter repelling down a rock face (since they were certified as a hotshot repelling crew but I don’t know if they still do that or what their logo is now)…is not protected by federal law. Every crew just makes up their own logo. I always like the logo of the ZigZag hotshots off the Mt Hood National Forest. It was the same as the Zig Zag rolling papers bohemian hippie dude who looks like he is smoking a joint. Which the Zig Zag rolling paper company could have objected to on copyright laws but I guess they didn’t care under the circumstances. The Happy Jack logo that I came up with after I became crew boss WAS the U.S. Forest Service Shield but instead of a beautiful gold tree in the center, I had them draw up a burned up black snag which was hotshot humor and I always expected to get in trouble for that one but nobody ever called me on it. Some things they let slide, but just try and use Smokey Bear’s likeness etc. in your business or hobby and you will find out just how serious the federal government takes those things…as in felony charges.

      Likewise, I don’t think you need a federal employees permission to use their name or their likeness to represent them or something they did at work since they, and what they do on the job belongs to the public and not to them since they are on the payroll and are civil servants.

      So…I suspect that the reasons the movie people changed the names etc. has nothing to do with either the government or those employees refusing to cooperate with the project and their reasons are there own. That is why I can write a book about what happened on the Yarnell Hill Fire…it is all in the public domain as WTKTT likes to say, it’s not like we are talking about Exxon Mobile..

      • Gary Olson says

        Insert “trademark” laws instead of “copyright laws” were appropriate. Also add things like songs, you don’t have to pay a royalty to sing the “Star Spangled Banner” like you are supposed to if you sing the “Happy Birthday” song, at least in a commercial setting, also web sites, cut and past from federal websites all you want except for those things specifically protected by federal law, everything on the FBI web site for example except for their badge.

          • Gary Olson says

            Why yes Joy,it does as a matter of fact…on July 31. Thank you so much, that is a beautiful e-card.

        • Bob Powers says

          I would add that the Oak Grove Hot Shots Woody Wood Pecker was designed by the owner of the studio Lintz and it was listed under a LLC. copy rights.
          But you are right most were not.
          The use of the name and name of the crew could be under Royalty agreements that were not given with out compensation. A book is different.

          • Gary Olson says

            Most were not? I bet NO others were trademarked. Who would bother to do that and pay hundreds of dollars in registration fees? For one thing, when I have gone through that process, you have to prove a commercial application by category (and teh more categories, it costs a lot more money) for what you want to trademark before your trademark can even be considered for registration. It is not an easy or cheap process.

            A book is different than what? A movie? I can write about what Brian Frisby the U.S. Forest Service Blue Ridge hotshot did in his official capacity as a public servant on the public payroll in a book but they can’t in a movie?

            I cut class the day they discussed intellectual property rights in my police science courses in college but we know you didn’t even go to college so how is it that you think you are qualified to give an opinion on what privacy rights a federal employee has from acts they did as public servants?

            Joy and Sonny could probably sue the movie people, but I would like to wish Brian Frisby good luck in that endeavor because he is probably going to need it, but I will defer to somebody who knows what the fuck they are talking about, which precludes you.

            • Gary Olson says

              And besides that, who the fuck is going to infringe upon a Woody Woodpecker logo trying to hit some flames with eyes, a mouth and little flame hands with a shovel anyway?

              The ZigZag Hotshots have the coolest logo, Oak Grove had the lamest one.

              Now…;the Santa Fe Hotshots had the BEST one…ever. An Indian Warrior, an Anglo Mountain Man and a Spanish Conquistador…all riding side by side on horses as recognition of the three races who comprised the Santa Fe Hotshots, almost always in equal numbers with a tribute to Santa Fe’s storied and colorful history for more than 300 years.

              I approved it, but I did not create it, or even think of it, that was done by Richard Lastyona, who was (probably still is) from the Laguna Pueblo, but I still have the original artwork. Santa Fe Hotshots…email me at garylolson@yahoo.com and I will send it to you!

              FYI…your history is off on your web site. What you show as the “original” artwork is a later version that came in some time after I left. What you now show as the “current” artwork is actually very similar to the true original artwork, but there are significant differences. Just a another little stroll down memory lane.

              • Gary Olson says

                Also, unless you know something I don’t, the original Santa Fe Hotshots who were disbanded for performance and disciplinary reasons in the mid 1970’s had Al Lopez as their crew boss. Al ended up with the Carson Hotshots a few years later were he even had a worse run of it. But he was a hellava nice guy…

                • Bob Powers says

                  You forgot the White Boots, and the logo was donated to Oak grove at no cost by the Studio. It was designed by both the Superintendent Larry Boggs and Lutzs the creator of
                  WOODY WOOD PECKER. One of the only recognized comic book and screen caricature’s to ever be a Logo for a Hot Shot Crew. He allowed the use with authorization and a LLC.
                  In the 60,s most of the Hot Shot Crews were designing their LOGO,s which then became a standard for recognition.
                  A little history for you Gary.

                  • Gary Olson says

                    WELL Bob…I do have to admit that having the creator of Woody the Woodpecker give your crew the rights to use him on your logo is pretty cool…IF you know that history.

                    Otherwise…having a Wood Pecker on a bad ass hotshot crew logo is a non sequitor…meaning “it does not follow” since I was one of those dumb ass “college boy” and it is pretty lame.

                    • Gary Olson says

                      Although FYI…even if I were buddies with the creators of Donald Duck or Atom Ant…I would still NOT put those characters on a bad ass hotshot crew logo. Well…maybe Atom Ant?

            • Gary Olson says

              Oh…and one more thing Fred. The coolest hardhats ever…bar none and hands down…the Payson Hotshots. I was always sooooo jealous.

              But those were for the all district fire personnel right? Or was it just the hotshots?

              • Robert the Second says

                Gary,

                Thanks for the compliment and I am in total agreement on being the coolest hardhat color scheme out there.

                We did it originally, so that aircraft could see us through the trees. Then, once we realized that most women just loved them, we of course, continued on.

                The bees, wasps, and hornets really like them too, so that was kind of a hassle at time.

                • Robert the Second says

                  And yes, many of the District wildland fire people eventually adopted the colors as well because they probably wanted to look cool too, right.

                • Gary Olson says

                  Well…nothing in the nation from anyone else ever compared to that color scheme. Very, very, cool.

                • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

                  Reply to Robert the Second ( RTS ) post on
                  July 21, 2016 at 12:21 pm

                  >> RTS said…
                  >>
                  >> Gary,
                  >> Thanks for the compliment and I am in total
                  >> agreement on being the coolest hardhat color
                  >> scheme out there.
                  >>
                  >> We did it originally, so that aircraft could see
                  >> us through the trees. Then, once we realized
                  >> that most women just loved them, we of
                  >> course, continued on.
                  >>
                  >>
                  >> The bees, wasps, and hornets really like them
                  >> too, so that was kind of a hassle at time.

                  Yes. VERY COOL Helmets.

                  Here are the ‘Payson Hotshots’ ( with the cool helmets )… walking right at the camera…

                  https://www.flickr.com/photos/gilaforest/7355287670

                  • Robert the Second says

                    Joy,

                    And the author, Anna Hiatt, chose to be willingly ignorant of the truth by intentionally neglecting what really occurred there that day from those of us that were there.

                    She chose instead to follow the alleged investigation report ‘facts’ and those touted by AZ AUSA Mike Johns..

                    The investigators, knowing that Crew Boss Larry Terra was NOT with the Crew when they were burned over, concluded that his absence would have had no significant out come on the fatalities. He left the fireline with the only radio and went to the store, returning as the fire was sweeping across the Control Road between Bonita Creek and Walk Moore Canyon. WTF?

                    She also takes many liberties similar to author Kyle Dickman.

                    Check out the Shift Plan cover on June 28, 1990, 2 days after the fatalities. Pretty crass!

                    http://www.fireleadership.gov/toolbox/staffride/downloads/lsr11/lsr11_iap_28.pdf

                    • Woodsman says

                      RTS,

                      Thanks for the shift plan link. Classy! I realize no one has the right not to be offended but come on! Some camp slug dufus came up with the piece of art I’m sure.

                      When reading about the legal battle that ensued following the Dude fire, I noticed this about the assistant us attorney, Mike Johns:

                      “Meanwhile, Janet Napolitano, then the U.S. Attorney for the District of Arizona, and Assistant U.S. Attorney Mike Johns—a former wildland firefighter and a crew foreman from 1968 to 1971 in the Payson Ranger District, where the Dude Fire occurred—were preparing the federal government’s defense against wrongful-death and personal-injury claims filed by the families of the deceased inmates, surviving inmates, Perryville crew representative Dave LaTour and by correctional officer Larry Terra.”

                      I don’t really have any specific point here but more of a curiosity. What was Johns’ history as a wff? Hotshot? Payson? Do you know him?

                      I also noted that this was not Scott Hunt’s first rodeo concerning legal ‘challenges’ following a fatality on a wildfire.

                      Thanks!

                      Woodsman

                    • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

                      Did you see the SNAKE and his ‘quote’?

                      “I’ve had it with this shake and bake”.

                      Just TWO DAYS after people burned to death inside ( and outside ) their shelters on the same fire?

                      Unbelievable.

                      That person should have been FIRED and never let near a fire situation EVER AGAIN.

                    • Robert the Second says

                      Woodsmsan,

                      Regarding AZ AUSA Mike Johns, it depends on where and what forum he posts his bio. Mostly, he is full of shite.

                      Here’s one from his very informative article titled: FIRE LAW.

                      http://www.iawfonline.org/summit/2005%20Presentations/2005_pdf/Johns.pdf

                      “MICHAEL A. JOHNS

                      – Assistant United States Attorney, Phoenix, Arizona.

                      – Payson Ranger District, Tonto National Forest, Helitack and Hotshot Crew Foreman,
                      1968-1971. ”

                      The Payson HS was an AD Crew in 1973 and officially a Type I HS Crew in 1974.

                      He was on Helitack, however, he is NOT truthful by claiming he was a [Payson] District Hotshot Crew Foreman anywhere in that range from 1968 to 1971.

                    • Woodsman says

                      RTS,

                      Thanks for the background on that guy. I figured you would know. I found it interesting that he was supposedly a HS foreman turned us attorney tasked with defending the gov’t against claims following wildfire fatalities.

                      Appreciate it.

                      Woodsman

                    • Robert the Second says

                      Woodsman,

                      And the Perryville Crew legal debacle was a legal nightmare for the inmates’ families.

                      “Marvin and Catherine Chacon et al. v. State of Arizona never went to trial. Neither did lawsuits filed against the state by Dude Fire survivors Geoff Hatch and Patrick Flippen. On March 10, 1993, after nearly three years of depositions, hearings and countless court filings, Judge Sherry Hutt dismissed the claims and granted a judgment in favor of the state of Arizona. In an earlier ruling, Hutt had said that it was the U.S. Department of Agriculture’s Forest Service, not the state of Arizona, that controlled the fire-suppression efforts on the Dude Fire, and because of that, the case could only be decided at the federal level.”

                      The inmates were not covered under the Public Safety Officers’ Benefits Program, which is administered by the Department of Justice’s Bureau of Justice Assistance (BJA).

                      “The BJA stood by its original determination, and on June 25, 1992, once again denied the death-benefit claims. With one more administrative appeal left, [Inmate Family Attorney]Stephens filed again. But the BJA was unbending in its interpretation of the bill, and the families’ death benefits claims were denied for the third and final time on August 25, 1992”

                      “Without further administrative recourse, on October 14, 1992, Stephens filed suit in the U.S. Court of Federal Claims, in Washington, D.C. In Marvin A. Chacon et al. v. The United States, Stephens argued on behalf of the families of the deceased firefighters that by ignoring statements made by Warden Copeland and Arizona Assistant Attorney General Albrecht, the decision by BJA was “arbitrary and capricious, and not supported by substantial evidence,” and that it violated the agency’s own requirement to “give substantial weight to the evidence and findings of facts presented by state, local, and federal administrative and investigative agencies.”

                      “Nevertheless, in an opinion dated January 27, 1994, Judge Diane Gilbert Weinstein granted the U.S. government’s motion to dismiss the case, explaining that the inmates could not be considered to be serving a public agency, because according to the Arizona Department of Corrections, state prisoners are not considered to be employees of the state or the Department of Corrections. Nor could they be considered volunteers for the purpose of the law, Weinstein said, since the inmates were involuntarily committed and thus could not be properly considered to be volunteering their services to the state by serving on the fire crew. “While the choice to join the fire-suppression detail was termed ‘voluntary,'” Weinstein wrote, “serving on some detail was mandatory” as a condition of each man’s incarceration.”.

                      “A year later, the U.S. Court of Appeals for the Federal Circuit, in Washington, D.C., affirmed the lower court’s decision.”

                    • Woodsman says

                      RTS,

                      From your reference according to the Supe of the Alpine IHC JP Mattingly:

                      “In the interview, Mattingly also questioned the priorities of the incident commanders. “They seemed more concerned with saving structures,” Andrews wrote in her log. She quoted Mattingly as saying, “Should we have been in there at all?”

                      Incidentally, the structures were evacuated so fire managers were concerned with saving EMPTY structures. They should have said ’empty’ structures in the article.

                      So clearly history is repeating itself over & over and the arrogant incompetent cluelessness of fire management trudges on…

                      WFF’s out there, are you listening???

                      Woodsman

            • Joy A. Collura says

              gary said:
              Joy and Sonny could probably sue the movie people, but I would like to wish Brian Frisby good luck in that endeavor because he is probably going to need it, but I will defer to somebody who knows what the fuck they are talking about, which precludes you.

              MY REPLY: since I am hearing behind the scenes spliced information on this movie and the hikers- some that know say yes and some say no we are not in it nor do we want that- unless the whole story is being told and they hike with us—not doing SAIR narratives like other authors have done..so yes you are correct Gary there will be a lawsuit if we are used in the movie wrong and like I said earlier I finally feel at ease because we have the right area and right lawyer to handle big entities so I say anyone at this point “omit” us in their book or movie unless they have spoke to us again and have approval and had us fact check their work and to this date noone has come to us so NOTHING is approved for any future releases…including the material on us must be fact checked on authors not just movies-

      • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

        Reply to Gary Olson post on July 20, 2016 at 3:17 pm

        >> Gary Olson said…
        >>
        >> I suspect that the reasons the movie people changed the
        >> names etc. has nothing to do with either the government
        >> or those employees refusing to cooperate with the project
        >> and their reasons are there own. That is why I can write a
        >> book about what happened on the Yarnell Hill Fire…it is all in
        >> the public domain as WTKTT likes to say, it’s not like we are
        >> talking about Exxon Mobile..

        I agree with just about everything you said above… but here is something to consider.

        ( Have to keep this short. Totally outta time ).

        When the ‘Wildland Firefighters Foundation” ( that thing run by someone named Vicki Minor who used to run lunch wagons at fires and her son Burke ) came under scrutiny not long ago for possible ‘mis-use’ of the millions of dollars they were getting in response to the ‘Yarnell Hill Fire’… a complete AUDIT was ordered by a Judge.

        As part of that ‘audit’… the ‘auditors’ looked at this program they had started whereby you could just go to their website and order T-Shirts with all kinds of Fire Crew names and logos on them…. and the ‘profits’ go right into the Wildland Firefighter Foundation’s general fund.

        The auditors wanted to know where the fuck all THAT money was going, as well as what they were doing with all the ‘Yarnell Hill Fire’ donations.

        As part of that ‘audit’… there was something about the Wildland Firefighter Foundation saying that the ONLY T-Shirts they could ‘SELL’ with Crew names and ‘logos’ on them ( Hotshot or otherwise ) were ones where they had the expressed PERMISSION of that ‘Crew Unit’ to be doing that… since THEY are the rightful ‘owners’ of both that NAME and that LOGO.

        So there’s that, anyway.

        Whether or not it’s ‘on file’ at the USPTO as either a ‘copyrighted’ or ‘trademarked’ name and/or logo… there are still ‘implied ownership’ rights… and you WILL get your butt in a sling if you just start willy-nilly ‘selling’ shit with those NAMES and LOGOS on them without the ‘owner’s permission’.

        Bottom line is that we do NOT know WHY ( yet ) the ‘movie people’ felt the need to erase history and create a FAKE Type 1 IHC organization called the “Blue River Hotshots”.

        They are currently filming at a FAKE bar they have created in Sante Fe… but they still went to the trouble to use the REAL NAME of the SAME BAR back in Prescott.

        They obviously have that BAR OWNER’S ‘permission’ to be ‘using his name and logo’ there in Sante Fe… right down to the longhorn skull on the sign.

        If they do NOT… well… they damn well better get it.

        So something is ‘funky’ with this ‘Blue River Hotshots’ thing given the fact that something like that is far more important than just the name of some BAR that some of the GM Hotshots used to go to.

        SOMEONE put a ‘wrench in the works’ there, somehow, with this “Blue River Hotshots” thing.

        • Gary Olson says

          Yes but…I am going to stick with my opinion that the name, the “Blue Ridge Hotshots” is in the public domain as well as the work Brian Frisby did on behalf of the American tax payers on the Yarnell Hill Fire while he was on the government payroll.

          So…the big question remains, why all the changes? And why the fuck couldn’t they have come up with a better logo than a fish jumping out of a river for a bad ass U.S. Forest Service Hotshot Crew and saved that logo for a movie about an anglers retreat or bed and breakfast in a “River Runs Through It” or whatever?

          The only thing worse would have been a Woody Woodpecker with a shovel over his head chasing some flames with a face….am I right?

          • Gary Olson says

            Maybe the movie should hire me to negotiate with the U.S. Forest Service, I got pretty good at telling them (management) to fuck off.

            • Gary Olson says

              And yes, I can see where logos are completely different. Those have no official connection to the government whatsoever…otherwise you would NOT have a bohemian hippie dude smoking a joint as the logo for the ZigZag Hotshots which copies the official logo for Zig Zag Rolling Papers.

              • Bob Powers says

                You Seem to be fixated on Woody Wood Pecker.
                Jealous I suppose but back then many were before your time.

                Yes the Hot Shot crews have the Rights to their LOGOS and their Names. The use must be authorized to copy or use.
                Each Seperiate HS crew has to have a seperiate Name and LOGO.

                • Gary Olson says

                  As WTKTT said…I think there are SOME implied rights to hotshot logos but I will bet you about $800.00 I can get the U.S. Government Patent and Trademark Office to give me the exclusive rights to the now defunct Oak Grove Hotshot Logo with Woody The Woodpecker chasing some flames with a shovel AND I will have it placed on some toilet paper and send you a roll and keep the rest for myself.

                  In any case…ANY rights issued by the USP&TO have to be ENFORCED by those who have those roghts. So even after I get the right to your Wood Pecker, I will have to hire attorneys to go around the world and sue everybody else who wants to put the now defunct Oak Grove Hotshot Woodpecker logo on their own rolls of toilet paper to try and recover monetary damages that I lost because I didn’t get to sell ALL of the rolls of Oak Grove Wood Pecker toilet paper. But thanks for the history lesson anyway. .

                  • Bob Powers says

                    You are a real case of I am important and know it all.
                    But if you check Woody wood pecker holds a copy right that will put you in court if you use it without a release to you. Yap its like Smokey.

                    I expect you to be proud of your logo as I am of mine
                    and I have two others that I worked with.
                    CHILAO and SWATOOTH.

                    I am as proud to have served on all three.
                    OH we were building hot line and chasing the flames while your crews were MOPPING UP.

                    Our LOGO was recognized nation wide I don’t even remember yours. Burnt trees that’s all you saw because they brought you in for mop up. Latrine duty ???????

      • Gary Olson says

        And not that it matters to most people, but I do have my original federal agent badge but it was given back to me encased in about one pound of lucite after I retired so it would be pretty hard to talk your way onto an airplane with a gun by flashing that badge. In addition, when an agent retires, they are given a new badge with the words “Retired” in lieu of a number, which still opens a lot of doors…in a good way, for truth, justice and the American Way.

    • Muzzy says

      I’m a relative newbie here, but I noticed a few of your posts coming up at once, so I assume you are new also. If so, welcome! I got a lot of help from everyone here when I first started posting, so I’d like to pass that on to you. I hope I’m not being presumptuous, but I hope this brief summary will encourage any lurkers out there to join the group.

      For lessons learned on the YHF, that’s a big question, and I feel like we’re still trying to figure out what actually happened and why. I have stuck around here because of my respect for the other posters who are experts in their fields and are dedicated to learning the truth about YHF.
      I had been reading here for a few months before I started posting a couple months ago. I have mostly asked questions to help understand what went wrong at YHF. I would suggest reading the articles on the site by John Dougherty as they inform much of what I know about the fire. Then read the Serious Accident Incident Report and the ADOSH report linked via the right column on every page.

      I can’t speak for anyone but myself, but my lesson learned from Battlement Creek, Yarnell Hill and others would be don’t work for a bad boss. Failing that, it would be don’t follow a bad boss from a place of safety into a chimney choked with dry fuel into which a fire front is rushing. Third lesson learned is that the FF management and investigation system is more interested in saving reputations of working overhead than in developing useful lessons learned, especially when the problems boil down to so-called human factors. As you read the site, you will hear of all kinds of lapses on the YHF, from a bungled initial attack, to supes not showing up or walking out, to spending more time ordering lunch than keeping track of personnel, bungled transitions, a poisonous mix of wildland urban interface and structural firefighters overseeing hotshots, the list goes on. And then, 19 young men died. But the SAIR found that no one did anything wrong. Even after 40 years, official lessons learned from Battlement Creek are based on lies, a word I don’t use lightly.

      Aside from a distracting and inexplicable fascination with the Granite Mountain movie which is currently in production?, much of recent discussion has been about how to recognize and prevent bad decision making under the stress of deteriorating conditions. RTS and others have been vocal about the dangers of fighting fires in the WUI, and Gary has started writing a book about it.

      What brings you here? With your moniker, I assume you are a WLFF, so what do you see as the lessons learned?

    • Woodsman says

      Lessons learned, you ask?

      Here’s one of many from me:

      It’s a really bad idea to rob a hotshot crew of its most critical leadership resources to fill overhead positions. It’s a really, really bad idea to plan to do it ahead of time instead of as a last resort. (see Appendix J – Resource Orders starting at pg 32. Look at C-5, GMIHC. Read the positions for the crew members. Strange, right? ie: Marsh – STCR, Steed – TFLD? My professional opinion is that the IMT, through the ‘buddy buddy system, PLANNED to rob all kinds of resources from GM for various reasons not the least of which is extra $$ for the personnel AND their sponsoring agency. Anyone who claims that resource order is all straight and on the up & up IS A DAMN LIAR!)

      If you do steal leadership resources from a hotshot crew, whether planned or off the cuff, it’s a really, really, REALLY bad idea to put them in charge of a division containing their own resources.

      Good question on lessons learned as there are many. Muzzy touched on several key points as well.

      I’d tell you all about municipal fire departments and their hybridization into the wildland realm AND my laser-focused analysis of what a battalion chief is…..but I’ve been beat to hell in the heat this week and I’m just going to relax now instead.

      Good question, Type 6. I hope you get more answers!

      Woodsman

        • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

          I’ll be darned. Even beyond on the sharp insights… I didn’t realize there was a “life of the party” component in there as well. LOL.

          • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

            Whoops. TYPO. Meant to say…

            I’ll be darned. Even beyond ALL the sharp insights… I didn’t realize there was a “life of the party” component in there as well. LOL.

        • Woodsman says

          Cheer,

          OK. I’ll go on if you insist.

          Lessons Learned.

          Lesson: “something learned through experience” noun

          Learned: “acquired by learning; a learned behavior” adjective

          source: Merriam-Webster

          It should be pointed out that firefighters can learn all the lessons in the world but if they fail or refuse TO APPLY them then it’s no good at all. We can all spend an extraordinary amount of energy right here in this forum (and many are actually contained in these comments) to identify ‘lessons learned’ from the Yarnell fire, and it would be very worthwhile to do so, But the key to the entire exercise is that wildland firefighters will apply them to future actions and decisions in order to prevent these tragedies from occurring in the future. That’s my goal. Prevention.

          With that said, here’s one more “lesson that has already been identified in the past on a tragedy fire that ‘went in one ear & out the other’ of wildland firefighters across the country”

          It’s a really bad idea to double-up one aerial resource for both Air Attack AND Lead Plane at the same time.

          Again, it’s been identified as a no-no in the past but management just didn’t seem to give a shit about it. I don’t want to hear any more excuses about it either.

          Freelancing aircraft disconnected from the operational needs of ground resources? Yeehaw!!! “Hold my beer and watch this!”

          Crew in distress and yelling into the radio? Can’t you see I’m busy?

          stupid bastards…

          Woodsman

          • Robert the Second says

            Woodsman,

            You posted: “It should be pointed out that firefighters can learn all the lessons in the world but if they fail or refuse TO APPLY them then it’s no good at all.”

            Exactly!

            And that was certainly the case with the GMHS. They knew or should have known all the lessons, especially those lessons relevant to fires in their own backyard, their own turf. WTF!.

            And so, they both failed and refused to apply them.

    • Joy A. Collura says

      Type6 says
      JULY 20, 2016 AT 4:43 AM was here and I say welcome back Type6

      my lessons learned on the fire or its aftermath?

      • Joy A. Collura says

        I would have to state my lessons learned from listening to others and reading alot of foias and just peaking to this page that there is more political push and pulls within this industry that is better left not talking about it or you may lose something from that- may it be your mind trying to gain as much information to be documented for the world to see that in reality NOT ALL the information can be shown as it happens because you could see much reaction of the wrong kind…remember people who use to come up to me with alot of excitement down right tug their head down tight and low in hopes I do not see them when they use to come to me and reach for me and say hi and then there are those who will say “troublemaker, how are u?” knowing full well they are being heard by their cronies and I down right say “wonderful.”..then asked “you finally done with the fire?” then I say which one…Sadler…Cart fire..Cramer fire…Rock Creek…Tuolumne fire..Spanish Ranch..Blue RIbbon….30-mile…Dude…Storm King/South Canyon…Coeur d’Alene CA which no movie was done for those loved ones but 78 died in a burn over not 19…Griffith Park fire…loss of 15 in Blackwater fire and as well our own IM Bob Power’s dad in the Rattlesnake fire ….Mann Gulch…Hauser Creek fire/Inaja fire/Loop fire where appx a dozen died, the Buckhorn fire…because I am not just getting foias for the fire that took 19 lives- I am seeing the common denominator in all fires and their tragedies…yet not once has anyone explained how come those loved ones do not have a movie but this last one they get a movie dedicated to their namesake as the title vs NO EXIT…On any fire, leadership and human factors shape our engagement with the fire and the management of risk… I feel they are in need of serious update. I strongly believe “experience and hands on” matters versus years in a position…I see that as my number one observation in the history the percentage laid more on less experience not on less years but not very well experienced in all areas within its job position on recognizing dangers. I also find it telling that in all the tragedies there seem to be a boss in the loss so that needs to be reviewed seriously. That is not good. I mean you can have young inexperienced ones on the line- the folks don’t know what they don’t know, and they are trusting their leadership and overhead to get them through. Their inexperience is understandable, and we need to do a better job of training and educating them, but most importantly empowering them. How do you react if your plan is challenged by a first or second year firefighter? How does a well seasoned firefighter deal with the political pulls and pushes on the line? appx 19 of 26 separate burnover incidents we have fatalities that occur in this time period-between 1448-1642. One of the most striking things about this is the short average time from blow-up to entrapment. It was listed at 24 minutes. I say you must be within 11 minutes of your safety zone PERIOD to ensure everything is ready for what is about to come. As I have done ALOT of interviews…alot…Shit I should make a true documentary on the interviews…but the point is they all said this common factor: during that late day we seem to acknowledge the fire is the strongest and we are at our weakest yet we still follow orders- in my life I have seen THE ENEMY and in this I call roaring late day wild fire THE ENEMY and I do not attack my enemy when I am weak and he is strong…????…to me I would have a mandatory break between 1:38pm-2:38pm because if you walk like I do ALOT…you know that is the ideal time to re-coop/reorganize and rest the mind for proper mental decisions ahead but America sees lunch when it sees lunch…In my research I have seen the pyramid of command poorly defined except Gary Olson- he said he was the TOP and the rest were the bottom; not poorly defined. I knew where he stood in his group but there is too many HATS going on is my opinion that chaos and confusion can happen. Like Marsh was the Superintendent but then became DIV that day can cause confusion…I am not for intermixing just to gain positions on your assignment…I mean in the chef world..when someone said “YES CHEF”…I knew it was me not the sous chef or station chef…in the kitchen they had no name they were just a tool to produce an outcome and that is what I see lacks in this industry of firefighting—too many want the POSITION…the TITLE…the higher paycheck…I see alot of WE have to do something when it should be the BOSS analyzes it and assess his plan and it is followed using the 10&18 and lces at all times and never dropping down into unburned fuel with a fire so near…I also do not like to see Burn crew from another fire independently lights around structures…multiple folks in charge but when it comes down to it 19 men die and you do not take the account and responsibility of your role that day- it’s wrong. Who the hell was in charge on that fire? Too many…and not enough alive are willing to share about it—but accept awards…bonus checks…it is a horseshit. I learned by both fires here that while both Initial Attack and Extended Attack are safe methods of controlling a fire, the transition period between them is extremely dangerous.If we had a strong leader in there they would see that with what resources are available and equals complexity in my opinion…keep it simple… if you are on my watch EVERY man or women is getting home…I cannot promise uninjured because mistakes are made of another due to extreme dehydration and did not follow the safety rules…but I am getting you home…take this youtibe link for a sample…https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UeEz5054-lo…excellent canvas ol western style print of YHF, right…someone commented to me Thu, Jul 21, 2016 at 3:53 PM: “Total FICTION.
        Even in the oil painting… it doesn’t even show the ‘fuel’ that would keep the
        fire burning and based on the ‘perspective’ and the ‘height’ of the ‘cartoon’
        firefighters… they could have easily just ‘run away’ and TOWARDS the
        viewer to get AWAY from the oncoming fireline.

        They don’t even have the WIND blowing in the right direction.

        This is GARBAGE.”
        and that person is right….I am seeing too much horse shit and not enough people wanting to clean it up…so it is a freaking mess…but we just keep getting our checks and we keep paying our taxes to this kind of shit and we do not see ENOUGH not EVEN from the Hollywood world people attention to the areas needing attention and they are ok with it because again it’s a paycheck and we are doing a tribute and an honorable thing as we keep handing out flags and hearing Taps like there is no tomorrows…well, there ain’t for some and that is why I stay in this and keep learning…I can ramble more but want to head out with Sonny to get wood.

    • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

      Reply to Type6 post on July 20, 2016 at 4:43 am

      >> Type6 asked…
      >>
      >> I was wondering what y’alls lessons learned are. Thanks.

      There are PLENTY of “Lessons to be Learned” from ALL THREE DAYS of this Yarnell Hill Fire fiasco… right on up to the “Greatest Blunder in the History of Wildland Firefighting” which took place on Sunday afternoon.

      But as for Sunday afternoon alone…

      1. If you don’t follow the established and accepted ‘rules of engagement’ for your own profession that have ALREADY been ‘paid for’ with MANY other lives… you could easily DIE.

      2. If you believe that these ‘rules’ which have already been paid for via the highest possible price are somehow “Hillbilly”, or that you are “Smarter than that”… you could easily DIE.

      NOTE: The two ‘quotes’ in number 2 above come directly from former Granite Mountain Hotshot Brendan McDonough, in his testimony to Arizona’s Department of Occupational Safety and Health ( ADOSH ) during THEIR legally-required investigation of the 19 fatalities in that Arizona Forestry workplace.

      Brendan McDonough was TRAINED by Eric Marsh, Jesse Steed, and the other senior members of the organization known as the ‘Granite Mountain Hotshots’.

      • Charlie says

        Brendan Mc Donut ought to demand his money back from whoever trained him as a wild land fire fighter==How was he able to graduate with a WTF attitude? Can you imagine working alongside Donut in a dangerous situation–but then his superiors abandoned him in a tight spot that would have killed him as well as the others. He had a lucky star that day — he ought to play the lottery with his luck. But like all luck situations, there is a time when luck does not help and common sense rules the day. Had he known enough about wild land fire fighting he would have never needed luck–he would not have been in that dangerous spot to start with. Once that fire went beserk, every firefighter had the duty to find a safe zone (they were in the black) and just set there and watch the big dog eat.

        I wonder why they were learning lessons they should have already known. Maybe Roy Hall could shed some light on why the crew were ordered down in a no-no-never situation in order to do what Willis says they do–protect structures. But you see people that have any clout in this thing must consult their lawyers before they talk. Joy, their attorney, has to give anything said a jaundiced eye if it does not ring true to what keeps the system intact and tidy looking. There can’t be simple truth said in this situation–the public and especially the forest service and honchos involved want this painted with no blame despite the fact that all common sense wild land fire fighting rules were broken thus resulting in the deaths of 17 innocent souls whose only fault was to strictly take orders from their risk taking bosses. And who encouraged those bosses to do the unthinkable?

        Norb tells me that since running two wild land fire fighting crews he never had a problem mixing the two situations–the hybrid wild land fire fighters that both protect structures and wild land fires. But then he also said he would never put his men in a situation he was able to access by hiking the route they made and surveying all the available information. He is retired–never lost a man on the job, but then he ascribes to the safety rules of wild land fire fighting and was not wont to risk his crew foolishly or because some boss above him was demanding he do the same. He is not alone from all the men who are well informed on applying common sense rules to taking care of their crews. I think the lessons were actually known but in the GMHS case the bosses blatantly disregarded them.

        If anything, a young firefighter best evaluate the crew he wants to join. Provencio and RTS and others had pointed out the dangers of working with GMHS and even Donut spoke of how close he was to expiring on previous jobs. Your survival rate will go way down when you have a crew that considers the safety rules as Hill Billy. It tells me that this person hasn’t a clue and if he learned that from his bosses then he was truly in real danger.

        The then mayor of Prescott told me that common sense goes a long ways–he knew I had refused to go down into that basin with the wild fire I was observing apt to change direction at any time. Forget worrying about the bear, it is the fire that will eat you. Just watched the true story movie where a gal and her boyfriend went camping in the Canadian Park–he got ate and she escaped with many injuries. Good God who the hell goes into bear country without something of either a good caliber or a 12 guage? Not Sonny for sure–it is like going down hill toward a fire with wind change warnings and planting yourself in a briar patch that extends for miles.

        Lesson learned? Plenty on this one–some of these wild land fire fighting crews are woefully lacking in their ability to safely attack wild fires. I see that GMHS was in that category.

  12. WantsToKnowTheTruth says

    **
    ** THE ‘BLUE RIVER HOTSHOTS’ CREW CARRIERS

    Regarding this TRIBUTE ‘fillum’ thing… it’s still fascinating to find clues emerging about how ‘inaccurate’ and ‘off the rails’ it really MIGHT turn out to be.

    A few more PUBLIC photos posted ‘from the set’ now prove, beyond a shadow of a doubt, that the ‘movie people’ have either just DECIDED, or have been FORCED to make absolutely NO mention of the organization known as the “Blue Ridge Hotshots” in this ( supposed ) “True account of the Yarnell Hill Fire”.

    Instead… they have willy-nilly just created this totally FAKE ‘Type 1 IHC’ organization known as the “Blue River Hotshots”… complete with its own FAKE ‘Logo’ showing a Salmon jumping out of a river.

    And just about 1 week ago… ( on July 11 and 12 ) they apparently ‘filmed’ the scene where actor Miles Teller ( playing Brendan McDonough ) is ‘rescued’ by the “Blue River Hotshots”.

    Actually… the following photos answer BOTH of the following questions once and for all…

    Q1: Have they really changed the name of the “Blue Ridge Hotshots” to the “Blue River Hotshots”?

    A1: YES. ‘Helmets’ with the FAKE ‘Blue River Hotshots’ NAME and the FAKE LOGO have already been seen in other photos… but the ones below actually show the FAKE name painted on the side of actual US Forestry Service aquamarine-colored Crew Carriers being used in the ‘FILLUM’.

    Q2: Did/Does Eric Marsh’s longtime friend Alan Sinclair really have a REASON to be on the movie set?

    A2: YES. It is still unknown if Alan Sinclair, himself, has any kind of official ‘consulting’ contract with the movie people, but the PUBLIC photos below now prove that Alan Sinclair’s own recently graduated-from-high-school SON, Ethan Sinclair, is actually IN this ‘FILLUM’ and is playing one of the “Blue River Hotshots”.

    ** FIRST DAY OF ‘BLUE RIVER HOTSHOT’ FILMING ( JULY 11 )…

    Direct link to a PUBLIC ‘Tweet’ posted on July 11 saying that this was the ‘First day of filming’ which featured “Blue River Hotshots” ( including Alan Sinclair’s son Ethan )…

    https://twitter.com/ASINCLAIR13/status/752693890201690113

    Left to right in the photo…
    Alan Sinclair, Josh Brolin, Ethan Sinclair, Alan Sinclair’s wife Colleen Dolly Sinclair

    PUBLIC Photo CAPTION…
    —————————————————————
    ‏@ASINCLAIR13 – Alan Sinclair’s PUBLIC Twitter handle
    @OddSinclair – Ethan Sinclair’s PUBLIC Twitter handle

    First day of filming with our friend Josh Brolin. #GraniteMountain
    —————————————————————

    NOTE: In the photo above, Ethan Sinclair is in Hotshot-issue olive-drab fatigues and the ‘blue’ T-shirt he is wearing has a ‘Blue River Hotshots’ logo on it. The LOGO they ‘made up’ for this FAKE “Blue River Hotshots” organization that has an image on it of a ‘Salmon’ jumping out of a river.

    SIDENOTE: Allan Sinclair’s wife is/was a ‘Roller Derby’ person and her ‘stage name’ is ‘Dolly-de-los-Muertos’, which is a spoof off the name of the Latino Holiday known as “Dia-de-los-Muertos” ( Day of the Dead ), and her ‘stage name’ means “Dolly of the Dead”. “Dolly-de-los-Muertos” skates for the team known as the “Coffin Draggers”. ( No… I’m not making any of that up. Just ‘Google’ it if you don’t believe me. )

    ** SECOND ( FINAL ) DAY OF ‘BLUE RIVER HOTSHOT’ FILMING ( JULY 12 )…

    Looks like July 12 was the one ( and ONLY ) day they spent any time filming any scenes that have anything to do with “Blue River Hotshots” and the rescue of actor Miles Teller playing McDonough.

    It remains to be seen if they are TRUE to reality there and depict the rescue as the complete and total ‘accident’ that it was… or whether they try to portray it as some kind of ‘planned’ event.

    Alan Sinclair’s son ( Ethan ) posted the following PUBLIC photos taken that day…

    NOTE: Ethan Sinclair posted 3 PUBLIC photos at once here. It’s one of those Twitter ‘triple frame’ photo posts. Each photo is ‘clickable’ and brings up a larger version in another panel.

    https://twitter.com/OddSinclair/status/752992989513814017

    PUBLIC Photo CAPTION…
    —————————————————————
    Ethan ( wheat thin ) Sinclair
    ‏@OddSinclair

    Ya boy done, with movie numba one.
    —————————————————————

    ** FIRST PHOTO – LEFT SIDE

    Left to right.. Ethan Sinclair, actor Miles Teller ( playing McDonough ), Alan Sinclair

    US Forestry aquamarine-colored Crew Carrier is in the background with the FAKE name of BLUE RIVER HOTSHOTS fully painted where a real Type 1 IHC name would normally be.

    ** SECOND PHOTO – UPPER RIGHT SIDE

    Left to right… Ethan Sinclair, and ( apparently ) Latino actor Rene Herrera, who is listed on the FILLUM’s IMDB page as playing the (quote) “Blue River Hotshot Captain”.

    Background just shows ‘basecamp’ for that shooting session.

    ** THIRD PHOTO – LOWER RIGHT SIDE

    Left to right… Ethan Sinclair, actor Miles Teller ( playing McDonough ).

    Almost the same as photo 1… but this time just Ethan and Miles ( and without Ethan’s DAD Alan Sinclair in the photo ).

    In the background ( to the RIGHT ) is another shot of the the BLUE RIVER HOTSHOTS Crew Carrier… and in the background ( to the LEFT ) is a vehicle that looks like just a pickup with a camper top painted to look like a ‘Prescott Fire Department’ vehicle ( white with red stripes )… but it also has “Granite Mountain Hotshots” painted on the back tailgate.

    It’s unclear if this is an ‘actual’ vehicle that might have been rented from the City of Prescott… or something just ‘made up’ for the movie.

    Neither the GM ‘Superintendent’ or ‘Chase’ trucks appear to have been just simply a pickup with a camper top.

    NOTE: Miles Teller is actually a tall person… but Alan Sinclair’s son Ethan is UNUSUALLY tall, which is why he is ‘towering’ over Teller ( and even his father ) in these photos.

    So they really ARE taking this thing ‘off the rails’ of the TRUTH with at least the IMPORTANT ‘detail’ of what the NAME of the other Type 1 IHC Hotshot crew that was working alongside Granite Mountain really was.

    There is a ‘story’ there that has yet ( but I’m sure will eventually ) ‘be told’ about WHY this is so.

    As in… whether the ‘movie people’ just DECIDED this on their own or whether that US Forestry Service and/or the ‘Blue Ridge Hotshots’ organization and/or ( perhaps ) even just Blue Ridge Hotshots themselves REFUSED to ‘cooperate’ with this production and this TRUBUTE film and they are FORCING the movie people to “leave them totally out of it” and never mention their REAL names.

    And while it remains unclear if Alan Sinclair himself ( one of author John Maclean’s research assistants along with someone named Holly Neill ) has any kind of ‘official’ relationship to this movie as either a ‘paid’ or ‘unpaid’ consultant… it now remains EQUALLY UNCLEAR whether Alan Sinclair just ‘arranged’ to have his own son play a part in the movie… or whether that happened in any kind of ‘normal’ way.

    There are NO prior ‘acting’ credits for ‘Ethan Sinclair’, and his name does NOT appear on the official IMDB cast list as of this writing.

    • Charlie says

      If the movie directors truly want facts instead of fiction Joy Collura can compile a list of at least 50 top men, most wild land fire fighters that should be consulted. For proper details, WTKTT is top on the list–JD, Gary Olson, RTS, Norb, Muzzy, Bob Powers, Dr. Ted Putnam, RockSteady, Provencio, just to name a few. Nine out of ten are elite wild land firefighters and cover an encyclopedia of knowledge when it comes to fighting wild fires. Seems instead the movie directors are relying on a rookie that barely knew anything about wild land fire fighting and a widow that has an agenda.

      It kind of reminds me of the movie “Everest”. They made it look like the guy that was in charge of taking people up there as some sort of hero. If you read it right he was inadequately prepared and caused the deaths of people he had accepted big money from to guide them up there. Like Marsh, he died trying to rectify his mistakes and save people not physically fit to make such a trip–people he should have never even hiked. Yet the movie made a rascal look good in the public eye.

    • Muzzy says

      WTKTT,

      Re: So they really are taking this off the rails’ of the TRUTH with at least the IMPORTANT ‘detail’ of what the NAME of the other Type 1 IHC Hotshot crew that was working alongside Granite Mountain really was.

      I’m curious to know why the small detail of the name of the IHC is of such importance to some of you. Yes, it may indicate that the Feds refused cooperation, but AFAIK, there is no trademark on unit names, so it was probably the director’s choice not to use the name. Maybe they wanted to inject a non-white face into an otherwise all white cast. If so, the choice of an Hispanic actor may be a hidden tribute to Coconino, Geronimo, and other units that are mixed Anglo, Hispanic, and Native. I’m down with that. Changing the name would make sense.

      I have lots of concerns about how this story will get the Hollywood treatment, but changing unit names isn’t in the top 10. Charlie mentioned “Everest,” which I didn’t see, but I did read the true story and agree that there was a lost opportunity there, one very similar to this one, to show the compromises that are made when a leader perceives an existential threat to his livelihood. I recently rented a video of a real hero/rescue situation (The Finest Hours) that could have been so dramatic if the director had just told it in near real time, but instead they opted to insert a fiancé and back story that didn’t happen and that added nothing but a pretty face, and a sappy ending that was the payoff. In real life, the hero was married, his wife was home sick with a cold, and she didn’t even see him until he came off duty a few days later. There was lots of noise and water in between, but little feeling for how frightening it must have been to be out in a nor’easter in an overloaded boat at night.

      Hollywood has been asked to provide more rolls for women, but tacking two dimensional pretty girls onto stories like this, which are all about the dynamics of all-male groups, does nothing to advance diversity, and ruins the main story.

      We won’t know how the GM story will be handled until it cones out, and even the director, actors and writers may not know until post-production, so I will bide my time before passing judgement. I’m pessimistic, but miracles happen.

      BTW, concerning the question of whether the Donut rescue by BR was accidental or planned, I believe it was planned in that BR knew they would probably have to rescue the crew buggies and other equipment, as had happened on other fires. Frisby was probably more aware of both Donut’s position and what the fire was doing than anyone on the fire, so he “swung by” to see if he could help. That sounds like a PLAN by a guy who didn’t want the hero treatment, just a guy who was doing his job…

      • Muzzy says

        Re: Coconino, Geronimo, and other units that are mixed Anglo, Hispanic, and Native

        Not sure where I got Coconino IHC!

        • Gary Olson says

          I doubt there has EVER been ANYBODY on the Geronimo Hotshots who was NOT from the San Carlos Apache Tribe or at least had a BIA Native American Tribal registration number issued to them based on their Native American blood. The BIA is the only government agency that can legally discriminate based on race…it is called Indian Preference.

          So no mixing of the races on those crews…you are almost certainly Native American if you are on a BIA sponsored hotshot crew.

          • Robert the Second says

            Gary,

            You posted: “I doubt there has EVER been ANYBODY on the Geronimo Hotshots who was NOT from the San Carlos Apache Tribe or at least had a BIA Native American Tribal registration number issued to them based on their Native American blood.”

            Geronimo Hot Shots (2000) Randy Anderson having served as the Foreman in (1999).

            And in (2010-2012) was David Provencio, Jr.

            https://gacc.nifc.gov/swcc/dc/nmsdc/documents/Crews/NMSDC_Hotshot_Crew_History_2013.pdf

            • Gary Olson says

              Ya…that doesn’t count. I worked with many BIA employees over the decades that did not look any more like a Native American than I do or ever say they were Native Americans.

              By BIA standards, you can get a tribal registration number IF you have one drop of Native American blood, which is the way it should be as far as I am concerned. I am not offering any opinion whatsoever on the policy or how it is implemented (see…Elisabeth Warren).

              I simply know that they probably DO have that tribal registration number AND that goes on the application or the application goes in the round file.

              I am going to BET you that Randy Anderson and David Provencio, Jr. have those numbers…period. Once again…it is called Indian Preference and it IS how the system works…period. The only way that policy is EVER circumvented is if NO Native American applied for the job…or if they need someone so qualified and specialized that no Native American meets that criteria. Maybe Mr. Anderson and Mr. Provencio were those people, maybe a hotshot crew boss could be that special, but they also very well may have their own registration numbers.

              Those numbers are not specific to any single tribe or agency, for example, a tribal member from some east coast tribe can apply for a BIA or tribal job in California and receive the same consideration as a member of that California tribe. But someone who is from the tribe of Norsemen does NOT receive any consideration. It’s a pretty good gig if you have, or can get a tribal number and you want a government job.

            • Gary Olson says

              And I just reviewed the “history” of the Santa Fe Hotshots in this document and some of it I wrote in response to an email several years ago but most of it is WRONG and INCOMPLETE and MISLEADING.

              So if that is an example, some of what is written in that history PDF is accurate and it is a good start, but much of it is wrong, incomplete and misleading…probably throughout it for most if not all of the crews.

              • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

                Reply to Gary Olson post on July 21, 2016 at 5:13 pm

                >> Gary Olson said…
                >>
                >> And I just reviewed the “history” of the Santa Fe
                >> Hotshots in this document and some of it I wrote
                >> in response to an email several years ago but
                >> most of it is WRONG and INCOMPLETE
                >> and MISLEADING.

                WONG and/or INCOMPLETE and/or MISLEADING information present on an NIFC ( gacc GOV ) website?

                I’m SHOCKED.

                SHOCKED, I tell you.

                >> Gary Olson also said…
                >>
                >> So if that is an example, some of what is written in
                >> that history PDF is accurate and it is a good start,
                >> but much of it is wrong, incomplete
                >> and misleading…probably throughout it for most if
                >> not all of the crews.

                Well… if the following ‘blurb’ about the ‘Gernonimo’ Hotshots can be believed… then there was “trouble in River City’ for the entire first FOUR YEARS they were being ‘allowed’ to call themselves a ‘Type 1 IHC Hotshot Crew’…

                ————————————————————
                Geronimo Interagency Hotshot Crew History (1991 to Present)

                The Geronimo Interagency Hotshot Crew (IHC) is hosted by the San Carlos Apache Tribal Natural Resources Program. The San Carlos Apache Reservation is located in Southeastern Arizona.

                In 1991, the crew received its Interagency Hotshot Crew status as the Geronimo Interagency Hotshot Crew, hosted by the BIA San Carlos Agency. From 1991-1995 the crew was unfamiliar with Hotshot responsibilities, and had difficulties functioning appropriately. At the end of the 1995 fire season, with uncertainty in budget, the San Carlos Apache Tribe was approached by the BIA to assume control of the Hotshot Program.

                In 1996, the San Carlos Apache Tribal Natural Resources Program began administering the crew under a PL93-638 contract. Michael Longknife assumed the Superintendent position and hired new crewmembers and squad bosses. Longknife, who had previously worked for the Globe and Helena Hotshots, helped advance the crew to its peak capabilities, like an IHC should perform.
                ————————————————————–

                So ( providing this is TRUE )… let me see if I have this right…

                1. In 1991… they were ‘certified’ as a REAL ‘Type 1 Hotshot’ Crew with the name “Geronimo Hotshots”… but they were ‘owned and operated’ by the BIA agency based in San Carlos.

                2. For the next FOUR YEARS… from first being even ‘certified’ as a full-blown Type 1 IHC Crew…. they had their heads up their asses and were (quote) “unfamiliar with Hotshot responsibilities, and had difficulties functioning appropriately.”… yet they were STILL allowed to be considered a ‘fully functioning’ and ‘fully certified’ BIA Type 1 IHC Crew? For all FOUR of those years when they didn’t seem to even know what they were DOING?

                3. After FOUR YEARS of this ‘fully certified’ BIA Type 1 Hotshot crew being known to have its head up its ass… the BIA finally ‘gave up’ on it and, at the end of the 1995 fire season, asked the ‘ San Carlos Apache Tribal Natural Resources Program’ to take this ‘Geronimo Hotshot’ Turkey off its hands?

                4. Michel Longknife ( cool name, BTW ) is ‘hired’ and he finally gets these ‘Hotshots’ to the level they SHOULD have been BEFORE they were even certified or ALLOWED to be a ‘Type 1 Hotshot Crew’?

                If all of that really is TRUE… that a ‘Type 1 Hotshot Crew’ that was CERTIFIED then spent its first FOUR YEARS of existence not even ‘meeting’ the minimum criteria for a ‘Hotshot Crew’ at all…

                …then I refer everyone back to the discussions that have taken place on this forum about that very same situation possibly existing with ‘Granite Mountain’ itself.

                If this ‘Gernonimo Hotshot History’ is accurate… then being ‘certified’ to actually BE a ‘Type 1 Hotshot Crew’ at all apparently doesn’t mean a whole hell of a lot.

                It seems to mean you can NOT really be qualified… and still get the initial ‘Type 1’ certification… and then you can CONTINUE to be ‘not qualfied’ for YEARS and YEARS… and you never actually LOSE that ‘certification’.

                It still remains to be learned WHO actually ‘signed off’ on Granite Mountains’ ‘certification’ that they were fully ready to BE a ‘Type 1 IHC Crew’ in the FIRST place.

                Supposedly… THREE different people ‘signed off’ on Granite Mountain when they were still in their ‘Type 1 IHC Trainee’ phase, and after the THIRD ‘sign off’… they were ‘certified’ and that’s when Eric Marsh got the call in the middle of a fire season and then scraped the letter ‘T’ off the bumper of the GM Supt. Truck with his pocket knife… and they all ‘celebrated’.

                But we still don’t have the NAMES of ANY of those THREE people that ‘signed off’ on Granite Mountain and ALLOWED them to even be considered a fully qualified ‘Type 1 IHC’.

                And the ‘Geronimo Hotshots’ History now shows that even though you can get the ‘certification’… that doesn’t mean you SHOULD have or that you really ARE ‘qualified’ to be a Type 1 IHC Crew.

          • Muzzy says

            So Gary,

            I read (can’t remember where) of at least two IHCs that prided themselves on their diverse membership. Was I dreaming?

      • Robert the Second says

        Muzzy.

        You posted: “BTW, concerning the question of whether the Donut rescue by BR was accidental or planned, I believe it was planned in that BR knew they would probably have to rescue the crew buggies and other equipment, as had happened on other fires. Frisby was probably more aware of both Donut’s position and what the fire was doing than anyone on the fire, so he “swung by” to see if he could help. That sounds like a PLAN by a guy who didn’t want the hero treatment, just a guy who was doing his job”

        Thanks for posting this. I have felt this way all along about the BRHS scooping McDonough.

        I always thought Frisby was a lot more aware and cognizant of the deteriorating fire weather and increasing fire behavior. The GMHS’ and their cavalier attitude toward McDonough and his way-too-close trigger point, with no heads up by his own Crew, gave that away.

        • Muzzy says

          Yes,

          I’ve often thought how sad it is that Frisby hasn’t told his story. Given the times of Marsh/GM interactions with him, and the rescue and the eventual outcome, I think he is the one most in need of debriefing, a one-man lessons taught. I suspect he was at loggerheads with Marsh all day, Frisby trying to find a way for Marsh to do enough to look useful without endangering his crew. He must be heartbroken that he failed, even though it was not his fault, I can imagine he sees it as a failure of his own leadership skills that he couldn’t get through Marsh’s thick skull.

          I’d still like to know whose voice was so much louder than Frisby’s and so compelling that those guys ended up where they did.

          • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

            Muzzy ( and RTS ).

            You are both completely WRONG about whether Frisby’s ‘rescue’ of Brendan McDonough had anything to do with Brian Frisby DECIDING to ‘go check on him’ even without being told/asked to do so.

            Just a little over an HOUR after Frisby ‘accidentally’ stumbled across Brendan out there near the old-grader as he was on his way out to meet Marsh for that second face-to-face Marsh had requested at 3:27 PM… Brian Frisby himself was RECORDED by Prescott National Forest empllyee Aaron Hulburd telling THEM ( Hulburn, Jason Clawson and KC ‘Bucky’ Yowell ) that he had just ‘accidentally stumbled upon the lookout’.

            We don’t even need any ‘Unit Logs’ or ‘Interviews’ to confirm this.

            The RECORDING has Brian Frisby himself SPEAKING and TELLING Hulburd, Clawson and Yowell that he only accidentally ‘stumbled upon the lookout’ as he was driving out to meet Marsh.

            Brendan McDonough himself testified that HE ( McDonough ) believed Frisby had been specifically ‘coming to get him’ even before McDonough could even make a request that he do so…

            and McDonough apparently STILL believes this ‘fantasy’… since he said that is what happened in his own ‘for profit’ BOOK…

            …but McDonough is ( and always has been ) MISTAKEN.

            That is NOT what happened… and even just a little over an HOUR after it happened we have the actual RECORDING of Brian Frisby himself saying that is NOT what happened.

            • Muzzy says

              WTKTT,

              RE: The RECORDING has Brian Frisby himself SPEAKING and TELLING Hulburd, Clawson and Yowell that he only accidentally ‘stumbled upon the lookout’ as he was driving out to meet Marsh.

              I’m sure that’s how he presented it. What was he supposed to say, “Yeah, I knew Marsh would leave Donut out to get crispycrittered so I swung around to pick him up. You should have seen that puny assed safety zone they picked out!”

              At that point, he didn’t know they were all goners. He was too much of a gentleman/team player to admit that he was cleaning up after Marsh, as others had done before.

              • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

                Reply to Muzzy post on July 20, 2016 at 5:35 pm

                >> Muzzy said…
                >>
                >> I’m sure that’s how he presented it.
                >> What was he supposed to say,
                >> “Yeah, I knew Marsh would leave Donut out
                >> to get crispycrittered so I swung around to pick
                >> him up. You should have seen that puny
                >> assed safety zone they picked out!”

                I think the moment that Brian Frisby and Trueheart Brown dropped Brendan off at the ‘T-Intersection’ just east of the old-grader… right around 12:30 PM… they knew very well that there was NO VALID SAFETY ZONE there in that area… regardless of what Jesse Steed or Eric Marsh had told Brendan.

                That’s probably where the offer of “If you need us… just call us and we’ll come get you” came from.

                It wasn’t an idle ‘favor’ being offered.

                They knew damn well that if this kid got into trouble… SOMEONE with a 4 wheeler was going to HAVE to come and get him…. and since Granite Mountain had managed to get theirs ‘crispycrittered’ on another fire and hadn’t even bothered to replace it… they knew it was “Tag… you’re it” as far as anyone even HAVING a UTV/ATV out there in that area that day.

                But that still doesn’t mean that factored into Frsiby’s thinking at 3:26 PM, when Marsh inexplicably asked Frisby to eat dust for 15 minutes and come ALL THE WAY back UP there… for some still-unknown reason….

                …and then Frisby ( who had a lot going on himself at that point ) also inexplicably agreed to that ‘request’, at that late hour, and dropped what he was doing to go UP there.

                There’s still never been a good explanation as to WHY Marsh wanted Frisby to schlep his ass all the way back UP to the ridge at that crucial point in the burn cycle.

                It HAD to be because of something Eric Marsh wanted Frisby to SEE… and to SEE it in a way that Marsh thought only the view fro the ridge would provide.

                Otherwise… why not just DISCUSS whatever Marsh had in mind over the radio?

                The entire ‘second face-to-face’ still doesn’t even really make much sense… and no one has been able to successfully interview Frisby ( and/or Brown ) to determine is there is MORE to be known about what the second ‘face-to-face’ was even SUPPOSED to be ABOUT ( versus just discussing something over the radio ).

                >> Muzzy also said…
                >>
                >> At that point, he didn’t know they were all goners.
                >> He was too much of a gentleman/team player to
                >> admit that he was cleaning up after Marsh, as
                >> others had done before.

                Well… there’s the rub… eh?

                We still have NO IDEA what Type 1 IHC Superintendent Brian Frisby might have ‘thought’ about Eric Marsh and/or the entire GM organization.

                He MAY actually be someone who, himself, ended up ‘not too surprised’ that they got themselves killed.

                The ‘essence’ of him ( and the other Blue Ridgers ) religiously dodging all attempts to interview them for all this time might be because they are still trying, with all their might, not to ADMIT that they, themselves, thought Granite Mountain was just “an accident looking for a place to happen… and then they found the place”.

                Perhaps it’s just a simple as a full commitment to the “If you don’t have anything good to day… don’t say anything at all” approach.

                As for “that might just be way Frisby presented it” ( rescuing Brendan )… I don’t think there’s any reason to doubt that it really was all just as ‘matter of fact’ as Frisby described it.

                From listening to all the radio traffic and other off-the-cuff recordings that captured Frisby speaking… I don’t think he was known for being any kind of ‘Chatty Kathy’ either ON or OFF the radio.

                We don’t HEAR the ‘question’ that either Jason Clawson, Aaron Hulburd or KC ‘Bucky’ Yowell actually ASKED him in that M2U00271 video.

                All we hear is Frisby ‘matter of fact’ short ‘report’.

                1. I was on my way out to tie in with Eric ( as he requested ).
                2. I happened to STUMBLE upon the lookout.
                3. I got HIM ( and only him ) out of there.
                4. We then got all the buggies out of there.

                Bada-bing. Bada-boom.

                Dem’s just ‘da facts’.

                And I think those WERE ‘da facts’.

                In other words… I don’t think at that point where we hear Frisby speaking that he was ‘filled’ with ANY sorts of urges to even ‘downplay’ what he was thinking or feeling… or that the whole situation was an unfolding ( but not unexpected ) ‘fuck up’ on Granite Mountain’s part.

                Someone asked him how it was that Brendan was not WITH the others… or something along those lines… and he TOLD them.

                No editorializing needed.

            • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

              Followup…

              See a longer post above about this that actually has the exact words that came out of Brian Frisby’s mouth as he was ‘reporting’ what happened with the ‘rescue’, only a little more than an hour after it happened, to Prescott National Forest employees Aaron Hulburd, Jason Clawson, and KC ‘Bucky’ Yowell.

              Frisby TOLD them…

              “I just happened to STUMBLE upon the lookout.”

              http://www.investigativemedia.com/please-begin-yarnell-hill-fire-chapter-xxii-here/#comment-342393

    • Charlie says

      Well if the movie makers faked the Blue Ridge Hotshot’s name by calling them the Blue River crew then we know this is going to be another fiction. The Blue Ridge refused a situation that would have gotten them killed–seems they get little attention but I have heard that a few intend to tell what they know someday. Under the contract they have they are obligated to keep mum about what they know. But someday that rule will no longer be valid.

      This thing has already taken years–some are angered that people on this site continue to search out facts. They have too–pages and pages of testimony have been blacked out–if you don’t believe that get hold of their official investigative reports. These type cover up and self serving investigations often take years to get to the truth. But in this day and age of the internet too many wise men are not happy to brush this tragedy under the rug. They want facts not fiction. Not only the loved ones deserve it but the tax payer that was billed millions for a fire that by all good reason could have been doused the very first day it started. The excuse that it was too risky to put wild land fire fighters to work during the night hours doesn’t work. Norb tells me in these hot conditions he has had his crews preferring to work the night hours–it is cooler and is nothing but part of the wild land fire fighting work. Two or three good men could have been there in thirty minutes or less–had it contained when it was in the bud and in the boulders. Yet three local fire departments refused to make the effort. You can bet if they had seen a camp fire up there they would have been there in a heart beat. Conditions were extreme and they can spot a cigarette at 5 miles. What has become of our fire fighting world–shit my Dad and I contained similar lightening strikes only with shovels and picks at a greater distance from camp than this one was from Yarnell and in steeper terrain. The newly educated fire man–is it preferred that the fire becomes a million dollar affair–and in this Yarnell incident–a man killer as well. I have to admit those agent orange retardant drops make a nice spectacle–but that is another subject.

  13. Robert the Second says

    Here’s an interesting January 26, 2015 article by CRAP inventor Ivan Pupulidy in the IAWF Wildfire magazine titled: “Novices, Experts, and Errors: Toward a Safer Fire Ground.”

    http://wildfiremagazine.org/article/novices-experts-and-errors-toward-a-safer-fire-ground/

    His section headings and illustration titles include: “Introduction: “Daring greatly” and a shift to learning; Approaches to Error; Experts and novices; Table 1. Expectations of Novice and Expert (adapted from Flyvbjerg 2001); Table 2. Five levels of learning: Novice to Expert (adapted from Dreyfus & Dreyfus in Flyvbjerg 2001); a Summary: A learning approach to prevention, and a fairly good Bibliography of sources.”

    His summary includes: “The first article in this series (“Recognize error to prevent accidents,” August 2014) discussed the journey from novice to expert. This article introduces the importance of understanding the differences in perspectives between novice and expert and it shows how experts, acting in a complex system, can find themselves in unfamiliar situations. Recognizing that the environment is delivering the unexpected may be easiest for the expert; however, this requires humility and allowing oneself to be vulnerable enough to admit that all the answers are not known.”

    “There is also a growing understanding that the novice has a very important perspective to offer, which can only be useful if we are all humble enough to ask, listen and engage in group sensemaking. It is important for both leaders and followers to consider the importance of “upward voice” – beginners/novices should embrace the discomfort of vulnerability and speak up; experts should embrace the discomfort of vulnerability and create a safe environment for the powerless to speak up, when they see something “dumb, dangerous or different.””

    “Simple, complicated and complex systems produce very different results, ranging from the predictable to the highly uncertain. As a result, interaction with these systems in the moment and during reviews has to be very different. While simple systems may respond to linear management processes, complex systems require sensemaking, learning and improvisation, instead of command, control and checklists (McDaniel 2007). Expertise improves a leaders’ ability to recognize complex situations that require adaptive responses. Understanding the difference between these systems and the role of error recognition must be reflected in the review of incidents and accidents, so that we can include learning in our approaches to prevention.”

    We will also need to check out his first article in this series (“Recognize error to prevent accidents,” August 2014).

    • Joy A. Collura says

      that name rings a bell..putting Dr. Ted Putnam aside where I know he was mentioned there at some point..did he ever in his life live in Las Cruces , NM like 80-84′ where Sonny raised his kids on a golf course and is he almost rounding up to 60y.o.- ??? same fella? I also knew an Ivan but back in Jersey long ago…when I was a 1940-50’s dancer…you do not hear that name often…ok heading to read article but heading seems familiar—I may of read it already but thank you RTS

    • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

      Reply to Robert the Second ( RTS ) post on July 19, 2016 at 8:13 pm

      >> RTS said…
      >>
      >> Here’s an interesting January 26, 2015 article by CRAP inventor Ivan Pupulidy
      >> in the IAWF Wildfire magazine titled: “Novices, Experts, and Errors: Toward
      >> a Safer Fire Ground.”

      http://wildfiremagazine.org/article/novices-experts-and-errors-toward-a-safer-fire-ground/

      Thank you for that link. Indeed… ‘interesting’ stuff ( given WHO the author is ).

      I’d also draw everyone’s attention to something that was posted back in the last chapter of this ongoing discussion which contained some pretty revealing ‘off the cuff’ comments on a Facebook page from this ‘infamous’ Ivan Pupulidy guy.

      The complete post is here…

      http://www.investigativemedia.com/please-begin-yarnell-hill-chapter-xxi-here/#comment-336612

      It contains a copy of a PUBLIC discussion about the Yarnell Fire that took place on Type 1 Hotshot Superintendent Don Feser’s PUBLIC ‘Facebook’ page and also included OTHER ‘Type 1 Hotshot Superintendents’.

      On April 10, 2015 ( a year and a month ago ), Don Feser had a PUBLIC conversation on his Facebook page following the article that John Dougherty of InvestigativeMEDIA wrote about how “Brendan McDonough will testify if legally required”.

      And Don Feser was pulling no punches with regards to the SAIT investigation.

      He set the ‘tone’ of the conversation with this comment…

      “Nobody bothered to ask McDonough what the last inter-crew radio messages were? They must have used the “if you don’t want to know the answer, don’t ask the question” investigative technique.”

      and this comment of his as well…

      “What I have read regarding Yarnell doesn’t pass the smell test.”

      And it went on from there… with ‘agreement’ about the ‘Tactical Errors’ obviously made in Yarnell and WHY the SAIT had REFUSED to mention what was so obvious.

      Basically a SCATHING review of the SAIT from these former Type 1 IHC Hotshot Superintendents and high-level Wildland Firefighters… and an opinion from Feser himself that Mike Dudley, Jim Karels, and other SAIT members probably need to (quote) “go down” for the botch job they did.

      And guess who was actually PART of this PUBLIC conversation?

      The mysterious Ivan Pupulidy… who we now know was basically the ‘secret author’ of the SAIT’s “Nobody did anything wrong, Move along” narrative.

      Here is just ONE of the PUBLIC comments that Ivan Pupulidy made…
      ————————————————————————————————-
      Comment from: Ivan Pupulidy – April 10, 2015 at 10:40 PM

      We should begin to question some of the assumptions we hold dear in favor of learning from normal work. I am personally really tired of accidents. Bill Miller shared a statistic at FML that the land management agencies loose an average of 16 people per year – when will we give up secrets to keep our friends alive?
      ———————————————————————————————-

      “When will we give up SECRETS to keep our friends ALIVE?”
      Ivan Pupulidy

      • Charlie says

        On the thought of accidents–One would wonder if the bicycle accident Marsh had could have affected his irrational decision to order his crew into the manzanita trap. View Joy’s photos of the very area the crew perished in that box canyon. She had taken the photos early the morning of June 30, 2013 when we worked our way through the maze to get to the fire edge while it was still in the boulders atop the Weaver Range. Amazingly we watched Marsh cross the fire edge several times–twice to converse with us–we were within a few yards of the fire edge that early morning at least an hour before the rest of his crew began their trek up the mountain.

        Once the fire worked itself down the mountain and got into that manzanita then it became the horrendous wildfire spectacle that not even an army could have contained. These men were watching it from a different spot on the two track than where we were–actually Joy and I watched it take off about a quarter mile south of where they were and near where they decided to go down.

        One thing ought to be changed–that is that is that to be a wild land fire fighter one must strictly take orders on a daily basis. If your boss has you breaking wild land fire fighting safety rules you ought to be encouraged to refuse instead of being obligated to strictly take orders. I believe if these men had been trained to refuse to disobey common sense safety rules that the bosses were willing to break, they would be alive today.

        Provencio, RTS, and some other wild land fire fighting superintendents remaining anonymous had seen the GMHS crew as a disaster destined to happen–their refusal to put their own crews in situations that were against the safety rules of wild land fire fighting shows their concern for the safety of their crews. When I asked Norb, a man retired now who supervised two wild land fire fighting crews if he would have sent his men down in that canyon with that fire where it was and weather conditions know, he said absolutely not. But he is only one of the many fire fighters who have looked at the situation and said the same. It goes to show that you can be a superintendent of a crew but not necessarily a savvy one.

        There was indeed one hero that is not much mentioned. Brian Frisby of the Blue Ridge crew that saved Donut. Donut would have been another casualty had not Frisby shown up on an ATV. There was no way Donut could have made it out on foot and had he deployed with his flimsy fire blanket at the old grader as he had in mind, he certainly would have perish. The tires burned off that and even the floor plate of steel turned blue with some old cream cans very close to the grader having the lead seal melted out like a tear drop.

        Strangely these men had fought a very similar fire in manzanita right out of Prescott (Doce Fire). They should have known the danger of trying to challenge that type hot fire, especially the fact that you never go downhill toward a fire like that, and they would have known how difficult that thick manzanita is to get through. There is no running if the wind changes–that the knew was going to happen from meteorological reports. They should have known a canyon acts as a chimney and even without the chimney a wildfire goes twice as fast with only a 10% uphill grade. Weren’t they knowledgeable that they were breaking all the LCES? Certainly they had no lookout, and claimed communications were screwed up, they had no escape once down in that box canyon and the safety zone they provided for themselves was totally inadequate in a manzanita patch.

        People continue to make out like these bosses that ran the Yarnell Hill Fire are heroes even though they made a mess of their job and wound up killing 17 innocent soul

        .Perhaps most all first responders are heroes to take on a risky job as is a veteran willing to risk his life. But when you put three bullets in a six shooter and spin the cylinder, then stick it to your head and pull the trigger–that is your choice. But when you stick it to 17 other heads, not your own, then you have committed a crime. So I see that strictly obeying orders from a superintendent that has no clue and is willing to go against all common sense and all rules of safe wild land fire fighting is a situation that needs plenty of modification.

        First rule after those deaths is to reveal the truth. The first rule goes along to save lives of future wild land fire fighters. Reputation protection and cover up is bullshit when it is at the expense of lives. ADOSH was right in fining the max on this job–was it $500,000? They knew it was a fuck up–and so do too many wild land fire fighters who know the facts.

        • Joy A. Collura says

          Charlie said: Brian Frisby of the Blue Ridge crew…

          MY REPLY- True story of the Fallen 19 Firefighters of the Granite Mountain Hot Shots Crew from Prescott Arizona–http://www.imdb.com/title/tt3829920/trivia?ref_=tt_trv_trv — yet we just again on IM “proved” EVEN the movie is not TRUE-
          BLUE RIVER, Charlie…you see…they changed the name on us…where have we been…not in any caves lately?

          It’s a bullshit,

  14. Robert the Second says

    Here is a March 7, 2014 Wildfire Magazine article by Richard C. McCrea titled “The Yarnell Hill Fire: A review of lessons learned.” Wildfire magazine is published by the (IAWF) The International Association of Wildland Fire.

    Not really any new insights here, although he does echo what we have been saying for years:

    “The real story is YH was much like many other entrapments in the last 20 years and the mistakes made are nothing new. I might as well have been writing about the South Canyon Fire of 1994. Other reviews of entrapment fires during the last 20 years have pointed out many of the same deficiencies in team management and safety practices. Are we condemned to keep making the same mistakes far into the future?”

    “Skookum is a native American word used by some tribes in the Pacific Northwest, which means someone that could be counted on and reliable and hard-working. We need skookum leaders that will make wise decisions or we are condemned to repeating the same mistakes and a YH type tragedy will happen again.”

    He talks of the Federal fire policy, IMT’s, fire behavior, Wildland Urban Interface, revisiting tactics and strategy, and more, however, there is NO actual discussion on Human Factors and only a brief quote from author Stephen Pyne regarding leadership and Human Factors, i.e. “flawed judgement.”

    — Stephen Pyne, Proceedings of 3rd Fire Behavior and Fuels Conference, October 25-29, 2010, Spokane, Washington, USA. International Association of Wildland Fire.

    http://wildfiremagazine.org/article/the-yarnell-hill-fire-a-review-of-lessons-learned/

    • Joy A. Collura says

      I like Stephen Pyne… He is a quality man like John MacLean and Dr. Ted Putnam..it was funny because I was reading his book when the week he emailed us for a unique hike and time and I did not know he was emailing me so timing but very much like the way those three men present themself to the world…yes even though Maclean’s friends told me what he said about me…still like him…how can you not…good man. Well storming here. We tried to help Leo the homeless man to get him out of rain but he said he has a ride he was waiting on for Dr appt but so many people look so sick and I keep getting you look healthy (healthy means Joy put on weight and they are being kind…) I am doing hard labor lately but it ain’t helping and I’m eating right and alkaline… But shhh I do like a quality beef jerkey once in awhile…no lectures.. We all have something we do that ain’t good…Josh, thought about you when I was helping the homeless man…how is your brother doing…tell your brother I said hello…hope to see him soon.. Let him know I want to hike the trails with him….he is welcome anytime… Serious let him know..
      Soft smiles..

    • Joy A. Collura says

      So RTS

      So many repetitive moments than how come back in the day when 14 died …why didn’t the film industry make a whole HOLLYWOOD film on those hotshots name not on the industry… What made these 20 stand out enough to have their own movies and gobs and gobs of money that no other tragedy in the industry saw …I have never understood why other hotshots can’t be honored but there is a movie on the gmhs only…can you help me make sense on that… Here we have HOW many similar tragedies but now its time to make a movie???? Why not then?

      • Robert the Second says

        Joy,

        Regarding the 1994 South Canyon Fire, the 14 that were killed were a mix of Hot Shots, Smokejumpers, and 2 Helitack.

        As far as why there was no movie for this 1994 fatality fire compared to the YH fire, I have no idea.

    • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

      Reply to Robert the Second ( RTS ) post on July 19, 2016 at 6:44 pm

      >> RTS said…
      >>
      >> Here is a March 7, 2014 Wildfire Magazine article by Richard C. McCrea
      >> titled “The Yarnell Hill Fire: A review of lessons learned.” Wildfire magazine
      >> is published by the (IAWF) The International Association of Wildland Fire.
      >>
      >> Not really any new insights here, although he does echo what we have
      >> been saying for years:

      http://wildfiremagazine.org/article/the-yarnell-hill-fire-a-review-of-lessons-learned/

      Thanks for that link. Totally RELEVANT.

      • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

        >> WTKTT said…
        >> Thanks for that link. Totally RELEVANT.

        …and ( I should have said )… Totally WELL WRITTEN.

        It’s amazing even this one no-nonsense article hasn’t received more recognition.

        The TRUTH hurts… but much less than burning to death does.

  15. says

    Your comment is awaiting moderation.

    The take-away from Rattlesnake Fire was don’t bring lunch down so you can’t see the fire but what is the takeaway in your minds from the Yarnell fire. We learn lessons in this so what are yours.

  16. Type6 says

    The take-away from Rattlesnake Fire was don’t bring lunch down so you can’t see the fire but what is the takeaway in your minds from the Yarnell fire. We learn lessons in this so what are yours.

  17. WantsToKnowTheTruth says

    Reply to Joy A. Collura post on July 18, 2016 at 2:56 pm

    >> Joy A. Collura said…
    >>
    >> I think Jeff is playing Duane S.
    >>
    >> it adds up behind the scenes-

    Looks like TODAY was the ‘first day on set’ over there in New Mexico for actor Jeff Bridges, and the following PUBLIC Instagram photo seems to CONFIRM that Bridges will, in fact, be ‘playing’ Prescott’s FIRST ‘Wildland Division Chief’ Duane Steinbrink in the ‘FILLUM’…

    https://www.instagram.com/p/BIAsrMtjLIG/?taken-by=jonwad

    ———————————————
    July 18, 2016 – 1:00 PM ( 7 hours ago )

    jonwad
    Great day in the studio w Jeff Bridges.
    Here w our director and the REAL Duane ( Steinbrink ).
    #granitemountain

    ———————————————

    That really IS Duane Steinbrink there on the left side of the photo along with actor Jeff Bridges ( center ) and director Kosinski standing on the right. It also looks like former GM-Hotshot-turned-actor Pat McCarty there with his BACK to the camera.

    So if Jeff Bridges really is playing ‘Duan Steinbrink’… it begs the question about whether there is even any character in the ‘FILLUM’ named ‘Darrell Willis’?

    NONE of the other male cast members ( other than Bridges ) shown on the IMDB page is anywhere near Darrell Willis’ age.

    Are they just going to give the ‘Darrell Willis’ character a ‘clear miss’ in this TRIBUTE ‘fillum’?

    OR ( perhaps? ) did the ‘real’ Darrell Willis somehow REFUSE to give his own permission to even be ‘represented’ in this ‘fillum’… or something?

    I guess we’ll find out.

    By the way… the people who are REALLY out there ‘hunting’ for anything and everything they can find that has anything to do with this movie are, of course, the pre-existing FAN CLUBS for all the actors involved in the film.

    Here’s just one that is posting almost HOURLY with ‘new information’, photos, videos ( anything they can find ) regarding this in-progress ‘FILLUM’…

    It’s the ‘Taylor Kitsch’ FAN CLUB…

    http://www.fanforum.com/f309/%5Bno-exit-granite-mountain%5D-thread-1-we-cant-wait-see-taylor-firefighter-63171824/index15.html

    • Joy A. Collura says

      wwtktt said: OR ( perhaps? ) did the ‘real’ Darrell Willis somehow REFUSE to give his own permission to even be ‘represented’ in this ‘fillum’… or something?

      MY REPLY: I know we the eyewitnesses/hikers/last civilian hikers to see the GMHS REFUSED any future books or movies unless they fact check with us before anything went out to the world-
      we saw what has been placed out and want NO part in ANY future articles, news/media, books or movies or even plays for that matter.

      I am watching for the eyewitness hikers (us) (best to omit us) in any format that makes another money nowadays that is not having a set aside income for these GMHS kids’ futures in writing-I do have on the back burner a “willing” lawyer who practices in the areas of government investigations, professional liability, and civil litigation in the “exact” area I would need if needed so make sure your powers to be clearly” get that anyone thinking to use us or the NOT TRUE narrative in SAIR about us- for almost 3 decades this is that lawyers field- every lawyer I have dined with and had good times in downtown Phnx heard my behind the scenes facts/documented journey and they even say wow Joy that could of never happened any better (perfect lawyer) so I may be a housewife desert walker with no income but I now know the right folks — I can see how people feel more confident when they feel they got a lawyer to help them out…because all I have to do is the ground work of document, document, document and that includes certain ones of the YCSO outfit and their actions towards the hikers because every area matters-
      even chief Ben Palm and his very slow acknowledgement letter of my FOIA request matters—“just saying”…also Peeples Valley fire dept…and etc…

    • Joy A. Collura says

      by the way you are AI 🙂

      you seem to have a better handle on things but good to see a public confirmation of what I just wrote about…right Muzzy…

  18. WantsToKnowTheTruth says

    **
    ** TENDERFOOT FIRE UPDATE
    **
    ** CHIEF BEN PALM STILL INSISTS ‘FUEL ABATEMENT’ SAVED THE TOWN

    Yarnell Fire Chief Ben Palm appears to be ‘doubling down’ on his claim that some kind of massive ‘fuel abatement’ effort is what kept the recent Yarnell ‘Tenderfoot Fire’ from ravaging the town.

    He ( Palm ) just made a new BLOG post on the Yarnell Fire Department website.

    http://yarnellfire.org/tenderfoot-and-many-more-2/

    From that BLOG post…
    —————————————————————————–
    TENDERFOOT AND MANY MORE

    By Chief Ben Palm

    On June 8th, Yarnell residents experienced the fury of another fire. This time, the blaze called Tenderfoot, took no homes and more importantly, no lives. Yarnell Fire District wants to thank all of our residents for taking preparedness seriously. We all learned valuable lessons from the 2013 fire, and this time we were a prepared community. The recent Fuels Abatement Project proved successful in protecting our homes. The initial attack on Tenderfoot was also an important factor. But the community’s preparedness by creating defensible space and doing as Emergency Officials instructed was also a very important step in protecting lives and property. As your fire Chief, I personally thank you and the YFD Board of Directors for their support of the Fuels Project. I also thank YFD Captain John Rice and Volunteer Jeff Shearer, who responded in the initial attack.
    —————————————————————————–

    The recent Fuels Abatement Project proved successful in protecting our homes.

    There is still absolutely NO indication that ANY serious ‘fuel abatement’ work was done there on the EAST side of Yarnell prior to the June 8 ‘Tenderfoot fire’.

    There is also NOTHING on the Yarnell Fire Department website itself that gives any indication WHERE any of this ‘work’ that Chief Ben Palm keeps referring to might have even been done.

  19. WantsToKnowTheTruth says

    **
    ** ASK AWAY

    Just a general ‘announcement’.

    It’s been brought to my attention that someone is trying to ‘contact’ me regarding the Yarnell Hill Fire.

    Someone who is known to be doing their own ‘research’ into the incident and who is also known to be ‘reading’ this Forum.

    Well… here I am.

    Ask away.

    There’s nothing to be afraid of.

    • Muzzy says

      Re: Well… here I am.

      Ask away.

      There’s nothing to be afraid of.

      Just in case the person has tried to comment but does not seem to be successful due to anti-spam measures, keep trying. New posters should be aware that posts containing more than one link will be held for moderation, and you may need to post three or four posts before they are published, even without links.

  20. Joy A. Collura says

    I said alot but it was too long and probably best not public-

    so to keep it simple.

    The madness of misinformation and misleading and deception-
    it has to stop…
    nothing good can come from anything but documented facts not redacted narratives-

    or more will perish..oh yeah Twisp fire…oops….

          • Joy A. Collura says

            “Marvel” Duane Allen Steinbrink…

            these actors and ones playing actors…

            they have to know this is like BIG BROTHER tv reality on cbs…they have “no clue” who the person is feeding me and my background in who is who I know…look around Josh…who is it that let’s me know what’s up—who can you trust on set to just let loose?

            Tell me I am wrong about Jeff playing Duane 😉

            “diary room” time 🙂

          • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

            Reply to Joy A. Collura post on July 18, 2016 at 2:56 pm

            >> Joy A. Collura said…
            >>
            >> I think Jeff is playing Duane S.
            >> it adds up behind the scenes-

            I could see that. Jeff Bridges even LOOKS a little like Duane Steinbrink, the FIRST ‘Wildland Division Chief’ for the City of Prescott.

            He’s the one that Eric Marsh thought he might ‘replace’ as ‘Wildland Division Chief’ when Stenibrink retired in 2010… but Eric Marsh got ‘passed over’ for that job at that time and the City of Prescott brought former STRUCTURE department Fire Chief ( and non-wildland firefighter ) Darrell Willis out of retirement instead.

            Someone didn’t think Eric Marsh was ‘ready’ for the ‘Wildland Divison Chief’ position.. so in came non-wildland FF Darrell Willis.

            But if Jeff Bridges is going to be PLAYING ‘Duane Steinbrink’… then I wonder if ‘Darrell Willis’ character is even in the film at all.

            Maybe the ‘movie people’ are going to just use Bridges as some kind of COMPOSITE character who is supposed to represent BOTH Duane Steinbrink AND Darrell Willis?

            Obviously if the ‘movie people’ have already decided to just change the NAME of the “Blue Ridge Hotshots” to the “Blue River Hotshots”… then they don’t give much of a crap about being ‘accurate’.

            So maybe they are going to just ‘pretend’ that Duane Steinbrink never retired at all… and have Bridges play him and pretend he really was the ‘Prescott Fire Department Wildland Division Chief’ even on the day all of the GM Hotshots burned to death.

            If you are going to pay those multi-millions of dollars just to even HAVE someone like Bridges in your ‘movie’… then you don’t just make him the “third firefighter from the left”.

            You get your MONEY’S WORTH and give him a FEATURED role.

  21. WantsToKnowTheTruth says

    **
    ** ACTOR JOSH BROLIN LAUNCHES A PUBLIC ATTACK ON INVESTIGATIVE MEDIA

    Well… I guess THIS was sort of ‘bound to happen’.

    Apparently… someone has only now ‘informed’ actor Josh Brolin ( who is playing Eric Marsh in this Granite Mountain ‘movie’ thing ) that there is ( and always has been ) a PUBLIC discussion taking place about the National Historic Tragedy know as the “Yarnell Hill Fire”… and that ONE of those ‘places’ is right here on this ongoing InvestigativeMEDIA PUBLIC forum.

    About 15 hours ago ( at 1 or 2 AM in the wee hours of the morning? )… Josh Brolin posted a ‘screenshot’ of the ‘InvestigativeMEDIA’ site on his own PUBLIC social media ( Instagram ) page.

    That PUBLIC photo ( with his own PUBLIC commentary and, after 15 hours, the PUBLIC comments of others who follow his PUBLIC social media site(s) )… is HERE…

    https://www.instagram.com/p/BH80HK1jtoi/?taken-by=joshbrolin&hl=en

    Josh Brolin’s own PUBLIC comment(s) are below.

    He actually had a LOT to say ( moreso than usual when he posts a PUBLIC photo )…. and it is all “as one might expect” from someone who doesn’t even seem to know that there are still many, many QUESTIONS that remain regarding what happened in Yarnell on June 30, 2013…

    ———————————————————————————–
    joshbrolin
    Hey folks. I want everyone to follow this site. It’s some bozo named Joseph or Jonathan or James Doughtery who’s supposedly (you can tell he wrote his own Wiki page) an award winning investigative journalist who has figured out that our extremely non-investigative but respectful story about the perishing of 19 Granite Mountain Hotshots in June of 2013 is being played by non-hotshots!!! Actors!!! And advisors who are making sure we stay as close to the verbiage hotshots and Wildland firefighters alike use (because we don’t know given WE’RE ACTORS!!!) are being called out as going Hollywood! Strangely Hollywood is New Mexico and New Orleans now. It hasn’t been Hollywood for a long time. Personally, we are trying to tell stories that are socially relevant and moving as America hits a high dislike around the world. To tell a crew of hotshots stories seems to conjure part of what has made America great: a sense of community, selflessness, unspoken altruism, and of course, shitty pay. We aren’t making these hotshots into martyrs but, rather, respectfully acknowledging all wildland firefighters for their service and skills. Why is it that there’s always somebody who needs attention and wants to call it dirty when we have @us_hotshots @wildlandfirefighting @wildland_firefighters and many family members supporting us to no immediate benefit to them? You’re not going away Joe, John, Jason, and you have our attention, but don’t for a second think that you’re bigger than what these fire fighters represented. That is not your legacy. Yours is a different one.

    ———————————————————————————–

    • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

      Followup…

      The rest of the PUBLIC comments that have already been left on actor Josh Brolin’s PUBLIC photo of the ‘InvestigativeMEDIA’ website are also “as one would expect”.

      At least we know ( for sure ) know that actor Josh Brolin hasn’t deluded HIMSELF into thinking he is working on a project that is going to shed any real light on what actually happened in Yarnell on June 30, 2013.

      At least we know ( for sure ) now that actor Josh Brolin, himself, KNOWS that all he is doing is making a TRIBUTE movie… to the GM Hotshots ( specifically ) and all ‘Hotshots’ at large.

      That’s fine. Go for it. Do what you are being PAID ( a LOT of money ) to do.

      People WILL go and see it. It might even make money for the producers.

      But there are people ( family members included ) who still KNOW there is ‘more to learn’ about HOW and WHY those men died that day… and that there has been an extensive and involved ‘coverup’… and no ‘movie’ is going to make that go away.

      • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

        Whoops. TYPO up above….

        Meant to say…

        At least we know ( for sure ) now that actor Josh Brolin hasn’t deluded HIMSELF into thinking he is working on a project that is going to shed any real light on what actually happened in Yarnell on June 30, 2013.

        At least we know ( for sure ) now that actor Josh Brolin, himself, KNOWS that all he is doing is making a TRIBUTE movie… to the GM Hotshots ( specifically ) and all ‘Hotshots’ at large.

    • Charlie says

      One thing is certain John Daugherty would certain to be slammed by someone–generally idiots who would deny the facts. Certainly no one denies the idea that most of the men were heroes following orders of two; et.al, who can not claim the title. Young men pushed to their deaths through their agreement to strictly follow orders puts no blame on their part. But the pushers Marsh and Steed, whom in early incidents had proven to squeak by without injuring their men with their dare devil tactics failed when they lost those 17 young souls under their command at Yarnell. The whole fire management was a failure–even to the evacuation of the residents–itself another squeak by situation. Despite the obvious, awards, handshakes and congratulations for saving locals lives were handed out like candy. At least some in ADOSH saw the truth and fined the maximum to people involved in this tragedy.

      So why slam JD? It is just that when you stand up with the truth you will always step on some toes. JD’s reputation stands for itself–he is doing a heroes duty by standing in the line of fire. Too bad the actors and directors don’t do through research and consult John with his three plus years of experienced investigation on this fire. They might then agree with ADOSH and many of the elite wild land fire fighters that support IM and are well in agreement with John Daugherty’s investigative reports.

      • Charlie says

        It is too bad Josh and the others involved in the movie are not willing to stand for the truth in this tragedy. If they were willing to stand in the line of fire as we see JD, Gary Olson, Dr. Ted Putnam, RTS, WTKTT, RockSteady, Bob Powers, Provencio Muzzy, Woodsman, Marti, Norb, and so many others–generally found on this site then they could also be heroes to the wild land fire fighting profession. Heroes because they would clean up some bad acting in the management of wild land fire fighting that caused the deaths of those young souls under Marsh and Steed as well as their superiors. They would be heroes because the exposure of the bad actions that Marsh and Steed led their men into were totally out of line with proper wild land fire fighting proceedures. Good God, dropping off into a box canyon of the densest dehydrated manzanita possible, with no look out, no escape route, weather reports of gusts of winds headed directly toward the men and arguements between Marsh and Steed as to leaving the safety of black to enter the most deadly situation to save abandoned structures stinks to high heaven.

        Nearly all of the aforementioned men are elite people in the fire fighting profession. They are wild land fire fighters and supervisors of long time experience and wisdom in the field, having supervised their crews properly over decades of time. At least four are known and respected wild land death investigators. I have not listed the many others that post on this site and point out the disasterous way Marsh, Steed and their bosses were allowing and likely encouraging the GMHS crew preform in their dangerous manner. I would like to see any bunch of wild land bosses argue against the reputations and wisdom of the group I have listed above.

        Now Joy tells me it seems from her review of the photos concerning the movie that there are many of Donut and Marsh–likely she thinks a movie mostly about those two. Donut is probably among the poorest examples of a wild land wild fire fighter you can find. He has proven this by telling the media that the rules of fire fighting safety are “Hillbilly”. He barely escaped a situation more than once that he should have never been in the first place. Blue Ridge supervisor Brian Frisby saved his ass and that only by chance. Then we have Marsh who certainly failed miserably as a supervisor by neglectfully and needlessly placing his men in high risk situations that eventually got them killed. It is interesting to know he was a nice guy and loved horses, but that did not make him a safe supervisor–information proved by Provencio, RTS and other supervisors who before the death of the 19 watched how motivated Marsh was to prove himself at the risk of his men’s lives.

        Sadly in all this is that Mike Dudley and others in the profession turned their eyes from this evidence and testimony of respected supervisors so that reputations could be saved–but this is at the expense of lives of future wild land fire fighter lives. A great expense indeed. Shit, they did not even want Dr. Ted Putnam to hike up to the site, yet he is the renowned wild land fire fighter of wild land death investigations, being a 15 year veteran smoke jumper himself before becoming involved in wild land fire death investigations. Go look at the pages and pages of black out of the Forest Investigation. You would think this was a blacked out CIA investigation of top secret documents of the highest order.

        ADOSH even had problems getting to documents that were stalled and redacted, yet their investigation speaks to what is actually going on here. Their maximum allowable fine of a bad management job of the Yarnell Hill Fire tells the story.

        You can pretend all you want and deny the voices of the many well informed and knowledgeable men and women that post on this site and thereby you deny the facts in this case. You also then put the young lives of future wild land fire fighters at risk. Protecting your reputation is not worth more than those young lives. That is what some of authority are doing here. It behooves the movie makers, in between their smokes, to wake up to the seriousness of the Yarnell Hill Fire.

        In this I have failed to mention the many people that have died here at Yarnell–at 90 deaths out of 645 residents in the three years since the fire. I believe that the retardant that was dumped to the tune of over 230,000 gallons next residences, and now add another 100,000 gallons or so since the recent fire has had much to do with that. There are 8-16% of these ingredients hidden from the public under patent laws so that residents and public near these chemical dumps do not know what they are inhaling. Gary Olson, long time wild land fire fighter now has COPD–wonders did his exposure over the years have anything to do with his recent diagnosis–and I myself also have suddenly come up with the same. And I do know the main ingredient that gives off NH3 ammonia gas is a lung cell destroyer. We need to know the other ingredients and their effects on our health considering how skewed the death toll has been here at Yarnell since the deadly fire. The forest service here has had no qualms in dumping hundreds of thousands of gallons of this shit near our town yet they know there has been no long time study of its effects on human health. I sure as hell will and has killed thousands of fish and aquatic life when accidentally dumped in rivers.

        There is much more that certain people want the public to believe concerning the actions at Yarnell during the wild fire that began on June 28, 2013 and when it ended in the deaths of the 19 GMHS on June 30,2013. Some of us are not willing to allow the truth to be hidden behind a smoke screen of lies, blacked out documents, and refusals to listen to men of long experience in wild land fire fighting profession.

    • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

      **
      ** ACTOR BROLIN REMOVES HIS PUBLIC ATTACK-POST

      Well… sure enough… it appears that someone had a little ‘conversation’ with famous actor Josh Brolin ( like, perhaps, the people that are PAYING him MILLIONS of dollars to appear in THEIR movie ) and ‘reminded’ him that THEY are just trying to MAKE LOTS OF MONEY themselves and they don’t need the kind of ‘controversial publicity’ regarding the effort that Brolin was trying to stir up with his PUBLIC ‘Social Media’ posting(s).

      It’s just a TRIBUTE film. Period. End of story. Nothing more / nothing less.

      They ( the producers and investors ) do not CARE what REALLY happened to ‘Granite Mountain’… or WHY it might have happened… nor do they care if anyone ELSE cares about the real “Lessons Learned” that might keep OTHER firefighters from suffering the same horrible fate as GM.

      They are just making a ‘movie’ that they want people to pay money to go and see… so that they can receive the maximum return on their HUGE ‘investment(s)’ ( Reportedly in the 55-60+ MILLION dollar range ).

      That’s all.

      Please ‘check controversy ( and the TRUTH ) at the door’.

      So famous actor Josh Brolin’s PUBLIC ‘attack post’ of his that he put up in the wee hours of yesterday morning has now ( of course ) ‘disappeared’.

      But just for ‘reference’… here are all the PUBLIC comments that had been left actor Josh Brolin’s PUBLIC posting as of last night, before that PUBLIC page ‘disappeared’.

      I repeat… these are all PUBLIC comments made on a fully PUBLIC Internet web page at a time when it was STILL PUBLIC and BEFORE it ‘disappeared’.

      If people don’t realize that everything that happens on the InterWeb is being RECORDED by public ‘Wayback’ machines and by the caches in their browsers…. well… then they NEED to realize that and remember that when making PUBLIC COMMENTS on PUBLIC web pages.

      So here is that PUBLIC page ( and the PUBLIC comments that were left ) as of last night, BEFORE it ‘disappeared’.

      SIDENOTE: Most of these PUBLIC comments left on that PUBLIC posting by famous actor Josh Brolin are simply ‘hilarious’ and worth reading just for a good chuckle.

      ———————————————————————
      joshbrolin ( Josh Brolin )
      Hey folks. I want everyone to follow this site. It’s some bozo named Joseph or Jonathan or James Doughtery who’s supposedly (you can tell he wrote his own Wiki page) an award winning investigative journalist who has figured out that our extremely non-investigative but respectful story about the perishing of 19 Granite Mountain Hotshots in June of 2013 is being played by non-hotshots!!! Actors!!! And advisors who are making sure we stay as close to the verbiage hotshots and Wildland firefighters alike use (because we don’t know given WE’RE ACTORS!!!) are being called out as going Hollywood! Strangely Hollywood is New Mexico and New Orleans now. It hasn’t been Hollywood for a long time. Personally, we are trying to tell stories that are socially relevant and moving as America hits a high dislike around the world. To tell a crew of hotshots stories seems to conjure part of what has made America great: a sense of community, selflessness, unspoken altruism, and of course, shitty pay. We aren’t making these hotshots into martyrs but, rather, respectfully acknowledging all wildland firefighters for their service and skills. Why is it that there’s always somebody who needs attention and wants to call it dirty when we have @us_hotshots @wildlandfirefighting @wildland_firefighters and many family members supporting us to no immediate benefit to them? You’re not going away Joe, John, Jason, and you have our attention, but don’t for a second think that you’re bigger than what these fire fighters represented. That is not your legacy. Yours is a different one.

      ** COMMENTS

      goingdirect
      Right on, Mr. Brolin. This blog site is full of vile slander and cruel attacks. It is about time the sewer lid comes off. My hat’s off to you for lifting it up, but beware the stench.

      jackkalian
      There’s always a Judas-little-c*nt.

      _dusty45s_
      I have the highest respect for legitimate journalists, whose numbers are extremely low in an age of corporate media in North America. Not only does this guy come across as a stereotypical tin foil hatter, but his writing is terrible, which one would assume to be a core requirement of a journalist.

      apd1037
      Well said Josh!!! This guy is beyond disrespectful and thinks he is going to uncover something that just is not there and I dont think he cares who he takes down in the process

      agmisner (at) joshbrolin ( Amanda Misner ( Wilkinson ) )
      don’t let this guy get to you, he has been talking shit about our men ( GMIHS) since day one.

      mobraa86
      If I were a man I’d take my hat off.

      riviera_civiera (at) joshbrolin
      he’s from a new generation that does not think of the consequences of what they put online…. Content does not have to be true, factual or even real anymore.

      meinturtle
      You should cast him as Hysterical Onlooker #2.

      song_dog1027
      From what I’ve read so far (it’s a little late for a big ol bag of BS) he just seems to string a few big (and somewhat unrelated) words together (probably hoping we’re all too dumb to know what he’s saying, so we’ll just sit there with a dumbfounded look and say “ah ha”), peppered with a few integral names and POOF…..you’re an investigative reporter. There is something about his writing that is very Geraldoish. The sad thing, in all his glory seeking, is that he doesn’t realize he’s hurting people with lies and rhetoric.

      song_dog1027
      PS…I’m pretty sure my cat could do a better investigative story, while he sat and licked his own ass. Okay, that’s my cue…goodnight.

      md506med
      I spent two summers on a BLM wildland crew in AZ. I’m happy to see attention being given to the job and (hopefully) more quality folks coming to the table. The fact it’s about Granite Mountain makes it even more meaningful. Thank you.

      dodgebreeze
      Missing 3-ballers . . Good shiza here Hollywood!

      frostystunts
      An empty can makes a lot of noise… Usually those with the least knowledge make the most noise

      mickharrison1977
      JB, thank you and all the crew for making this movie. As for the ‘Investigative Fucktard’, depopulation for him and his ilk would be saving grace of all mankind…by the way, on a more positive note America and her people are not disliked, its just the US political elite, their financiers and foreign policy that are intensely disliked! To that end bollocks to them and carry on making good movies. Slainte!

      papa_dash
      This asshole has no idea of the dedication, hard work and respect that you men have put into this film. The power of the pen has now revealed the dickhead behind it. I know most of you guys and know how hard you worked for this, thanks guys

      hehami
      Their story is one of heroism and great sacrifice. It should be told. Keep on truckin, sir!

      oddsinclair ( Ethan G. Sinclair )
      Lol. I wonder how personally his life is affected by wildland fire fighters. My house hold revolved heavily around it. I grew up around it. You’re doing it a justice josh. I wouldn’t sweat over this joke.

      marvelduane ( Marvel Duane Steinbrink )
      You have the support from all those that matter. We love and appreciate all that you and the others are doing to honor our 19.

      ———————————————————————

      • Charlie says

        Exactly WTKTT–not much interest in the real story from the bozo crowd. They can’t bear to have their story challenged when it involves millions. What they do not understand is that Joy and I are survivors of that fire and this old codger stood right there on that two track shortly before those supposed knowledgeable bosses ordered their crew to descend into a trap. I am not a firefighter but damn well knew better to drop off into a trap. You can not make heroes out of bosses that killed their men. However the men that were ordered to their death were heroes–17 young men that believed their bosses knew what they were doing. Now tell me how Marsh and Steed are heroes when they did the unthinkable. Joy and I have hiked too many wild land fire fighters that have surveyed the situation–not one has said it was a heroic idea to drop your crew off into that box canyon with an uncontrollable wildfire apt to change direction anytime. All to a man, and I am talking experienced wild land fire fighting bosses–said that was a complete no-no and against all common sense and the wild land fire fighter safety rules of the ten and eighteen. Try anyway they can but you can not make heroes out of bosses that kill their men on those conditions, nor can you use Donut, a rookie and man without a clue when it comes to wild land fire fighting be a valid representation of what wild land fire fighters are about.

        Nothing will convince this old mountain man of what I know from common sense and from every elite wild land fire fighter that investigated the incident. Granted there are a number who have an agenda to make a pigs ear into a silk purse–but it can’t be done with the facts as they are.

        However, I will concede that a young man ought be very careful picking a wild land fire fighter boss. He ought to know that some bosses are not really qualified to be that and will needlessly risk your neck. It would be well to be schooled in all the safety rules like LCES and be prepared to refuse to engage when your boss wants you to break them All the LCES were broken by Marsh and Steed–and as a direct result they killed the 17 under them. If anything Marsh and Steed have done as a legacy is to teach wild land fire fighters how not to fight fires or needlessly risk your crew.

        • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

          Once again… well said Charlie.

          Thank you for pointing out again that regardless of anything else that was in the emails that US Forestry employee Mike Dudley was receiving ( shortly after the tragedy ) from respected Type 1 IHC Hotshot Superintendents was that ‘information’ that it was KNOWN in Hotshot circles that there are some Type 1 outfits that are ‘safer’ than others.

          They were telling US Forestry employee Mike Dudley ( the person tasked with doing the official investigation of the greatest blunder in Wildland Firefighting History ) in WRITING that this was COMMON KNOWLEDGE… and there were only a few Type IHC Hotshots in ‘the business’ that they would trust with their own sons LIVES… but Mike Dudley didn’t lift one finger to even ‘follow up’ on that ‘potentially relevant’ information.

          So we can only assume that situation, as it was being described to US Forestry employee and SAIT Co-Lead Mike Dudley, still EXISTS ‘out there’.

          That there really might be OTHER ‘Type 1 IHC’ organizations that are ( like Granite Mountain appears to have been ) just an “accident looking for a place to happen”.

          When airplanes fly into the ground… it is not uncommon for EVERY SIMILAR AIRCRAFT to be GROUNDED until real ‘investigators’ can say, for sure and certain, that the same ‘threat’ does not exist fleet-wide.

          When the ‘Granite Mountain’ Type 1 IHC airplane ‘flew right into the ground and killed everyone onboard’ that day… there should have been a COMPLETE and TOTAL industry-wide review of ‘the fleet’ to make SURE there were not OTHER similar ‘organizations’ that were a similar “accident waiting to happen”.

          A complete and total industry-wide qualifications review of ALL ‘supervisory’ personnel… and efforts made to make SURE all of those organizations were following the ‘rules of the profession’ and didn’t think all that was just “Hillbilly stuff” and “we’re smarter than that now” ( Both quotes directly from the only survivor of the Granite Mountain ‘crash’ ).

          Even NOW… where would be the HARM in such a system-wide ‘review’… just to make SURE no one else is out there playing Ranger-Danger on any kind of ‘regular’ basis?

          Answer: No harm whatsoever.

          It would only be a GOOD thing to do… and just MIGHT reduce the chances of another ‘crash into the side of a mountain’ that COULD have been ‘prevented’.

        • Robert the Second says

          Charlie,

          Well said.

          You posted: “You can not make heroes out of bosses that killed their men. …. Try anyway they can but you can not make heroes out of bosses that kill their men on those conditions, …. ”

          A well respected Hot Shot, within a week of this tragedy, basically said the very same thing: “You can’t make heroes out of somebody that f**ked up.”

          So then, ‘they’ must maintain that image of heroes killed by the big, bad fire, and since there was nothing anyone could have done to prevent it, then it was nobody’s fault,

          Thanks for saying what needs to be said.

    • Joy A. Collura says

      Wwtktt-

      you would not see Miles Teller waste his time like Josh did this week and not because he is alot younger just not his style— Josh; placing his energy to do his one-sided attack (the world loves this kid Teller)— Josh needs to realize that Tex Gilligan (Sonny) went back for me in the same exact area those men dropped down that same exact afternoon on 6-30-13 and yet we are alive so we just want to know all the details to make sense of it all— Sonny cannot understand HOW anyone would drop into that basin…box canyon…so when Josh was here in Yarnell- what did you think when you went out there- did you go to the two track road and look down where they passed on? (

      Yarnell, AZ. RIP 19: Granite Mountain Hotshots. Respectfully. ? A video posted by Josh Brolin (@joshbrolin) on May 21, 2016 at 8:53pm PDT

      )
      I cannot even see Jennifer doing that- she is more reserved…and who is Taylor playing; isn’t he like 35? and as far as Jeff Bridges..The Big Lebowski, I can see him and Alex Russell with Sonny enjoying a brew-ski…chilling- that guy is a hoot…I think if we ever do a meet-up party on IM, Jeff should be there 🙂 actually Geoff Stults (from ben part-7th Heaven to I Hope They Serve Beer in Hell part Dan) he is funny as hell too— he is 39 so who is he playing? also who is the evacuee that they are placing in this movie? Ryan Busch playing Deford looks like him…finally they list him but we knew he was long before IMDB..

  22. Robert the Second says

    Gary, as you well know, today is the 1976 Battlement Creek Fire anniversary. This document was attached to the national Situation Report today and all I could provide was a link.

    http://www.nwcg.gov/sites/default/files/six-minutes-for-safety/This-Day-in-History/TDIH_BattlementCreek.pdf

    You and Dr. Putnam have commented on the lies and coverups about this fire, so would you please compare this “6 Minutes For Safety” article to the truth of what and why these fatalities actually occurred. Thanks.

      • Robert the Second says

        Muzzy, thanks. I forgot about this.

        There are readily discrepancies. No, make that outright lies!

        The “6 Minutes for Safety” version posted:

        “The burnout squad consisted of the crew boss, squad boss and 2 crewmembers. The rest of the crew is improving the handline down the ridgetop. At this same time another crew is burning out in the bottom of the draw (Point C-D). The draw burns readily, uphill toward the ridge and the Mormon Lake crew.

        NEITHER CREW KNEW OF THE SPECIFIC LOCATION OR ASSIGNMENT OF THE OTHER.”

        And Gary tells us the truth with this on May 5, 2016:

        “1, The Happy Jack Hotshots knew exactly where the Mormon Lake Hotshots were…we could see them on the fucking slope above us.

        “2. The Mormon Lake Hotshots knew exactly where the Happy Jack Hotshots were, they could see us on the fucking slope below them.”

        Regarding the “The burnout squad consisted of the crew boss, squad boss and 2 crewmembers,” the Crew Boss was actively burning out rather than managing his Crew and watching out for them.

        • Muzzy says

          “Regarding the “The burnout squad consisted of the crew boss, squad boss and 2 crewmembers,” the Crew Boss was actively burning out rather than managing his Crew and watching out for them.”

          Yes, and even worse, the crew boss was well aware that he shouldn’t have been there, but he wanted to stay back to get the burn just so. Then the FS decides (apparently) that the crew boss’s arrogance and the crew’s obedience to patently foolhardy orders was not the problem, only that they should have worn different clothes and carried different equipment. IOW, they could have survived their unsafe acts if they had different stuff, so, keep up the unsafe behavior, we’ll just get you more stuff. Is that the lesson learned that would have saved the 19?

          • Muzzy says

            From Gary at the link below:

            Darrell Willis told me himself that he was a student of the Battlement Creek Fire Disaster. Don’t you think it might have been helpful for Willis to read what kind of crew boss Tony Czak was and what he did wrong to not only kill himself but two others as well, plus a fourth who was severely burned with third degree burns over most of his body? Maybe Willis could have recognized that quality in Marsh and even managed to associate Marsh’s nickname (One Up) with the potential of the same thing happening to his “sons.” And now don’t you think it might be helpful to possibly saving the lives of future wildland firefighters by linking the reckless behavior of Tony Czak with that of Eric Marsh to clearly demonstrate what CAN and HAS happened?

          • Joy A. Collura says

            muzzy said:
            Hey Joy,

            Hope all is well with you!
            ——————————-
            MY REPLY:
            The pain is constant…keeping my body balanced/alkaline and on the bilateral kidney stones down to one present on the scan and the colon after almost into the eighth week I had success and I have to accredit the doctor not me…the apricots and pears and plums and prunes were not a success as much as I would like to admit but the doctor’s methods were and well as it helps one area it causes another area to go odd and then they give you a pill for that but the actual surgery is just in my opinion way off…I am third in line for a cancellation but this month is just waiting and it is Sonny’s month…I sent the crew here the photos of what Sonny pulled down all on his own with a come-along and chain and wench; a forty foot tower..I helped stack and clean but I had nothing to do with the destruction of the tower but I will be making frames from some good barn wood and one will go to the family- as Sonny said we both arrived and were gonna decline the project since it was based free barn wood but out of all the wood not any to equal to the hard labor and heat but then you see the 2 very young kids…I will tell you Muzzy that Josh Brolin has to comprehend alot of us here have been tied to the world he lives nowadays at one phase or another in our lives so we are not gonna “buy” into his 24 hour tactics to make a brownie point amongst those on his set like oh-e we have a genuine movie star on our side—as Josh has done publicly in his life time (name drop)— I only have very minimal just so few can go back and fact check me out but I am not a fan of his recent tactic not only on Investigative Media and his one sided attack but also in his famed position his position on other political areas- he knows better but he is not a groomable guy in that sense- he does what he does when he is up late in the company of people he is trying to make them feel “impressed” by his quickie support tactic; clap, clap Josh…I predicted that it would be down by the 33rd hour—well, overall “doing”…over-heated doing yardwork at Sonny’s thinking of my pool at home…great day to “plunge”…but been more like a “purge” day..projectile vomiting kind of day…thanks for asking…Roy Moore the ol’ rancher died…man too many keep dropping like flies…also Will Smith the actor and Josh Brolin both stated publicly they are not in this world to solve mysteries or investigate crimes…so do not expect the kid to be a person who will really take the time to look and GET what this site is about…the movie will come and the movie will go and the truth will either be there at the forefront or hidden…but the dvd will be in the sale bin when if done properly for all fallen should stay firm in the “truth” documentary section…like a good Pearl Harbor or war movie because in a sense it is a war going out on those lines…I mean look at how many wounded…injured…dead…it could be less disastrous but it seems someone running the show thinks they are being valiant…as the flags are folded and handed to each widow and loved one and the Taps song fades and the bugle players march away…when are we going to be a world that honors the honorable by natural old age deaths not avoidable situations…

  23. WantsToKnowTheTruth says

    **
    ** PAT MCCARTY AND JOSH BROLIN AT “BROLIN’S PAD”…

    Former GM Hothshot-turned-actor-movie-consultant Pat McCarty finally wrangled himself an invitation back to actor Josh Brolin’s multi-million dollar rented PAD where he is staying while playing ‘Eric Marsh’ in this ‘movie’ thing.

    Actor Josh Brolin himself posted the following PHOTO on his own PUBLIC Instagram page…

    https://www.instagram.com/p/BHtXuxij0h8/?taken-by=joshbrolin&hl=en

    Here is the TEXT that Brolin entered for this PHOTO…
    —————————————————————
    joshbrolin
    Firefighter Pat McCarty and me hanging out the house up on the hill.
    We call it 8150 because of its elevation. I just finished a workout.
    He just finished a beer. He looks way more relaxed than I do.
    #us_hotshots #wildland_firefighters #wildlandfirefighting
    #granitemountain #black_label_media

    —————————————————————

    He ( McCarty ) looks like he’s having a good time. That’s great.

    In another Instagram post… actor Josh Brolin stated that former GM Hotshot Pat McCarty isn’t just a ‘consultant/actor’ on the film. Brolin goes so far as to say that McCarty is now the ‘heart’ of the effort and everyone’s ‘inspiration’.

    I hope wherever they ‘premier’ this move ( Prescott? Nah. I doubt it ) that they let McCarty walk the red carpet like the rest of the ‘glamoratti’, and not have him sneak in the side door like all the rest of the ‘techies’ usually have to do.

    As for the PAD where Brolin is staying… that’s the place that New Mexico film buffs already identified just HOURS after Brolin started posting pictures he was taking from that place on his PUBLIC Instagram account.

    People in New Mexico ( and Sante Fe ) recognized the ‘house’ right away.

    Josh Brolin is staying HERE, in Sante Fe, while he plays ‘Eric Marsh’ in the movie…

    3256 Paseo Del Monte, Santa Fe, NM 87501

    Corner of Paseo Ponderosa and Paseo Del Monte, in the Hyde Park Estates area, Northeast of Sante Fe, New Mexico, in Sante Fe County.

    The number of the house is painted on the side of the house itself in 2 foot high vertical numbers, just to the right of the garage door.

    ** BILL GABBERT INTERVIEW REQUEST DELETED?

    Also… something ODD just happened.

    Just between the time I found this ‘photo’ and was able to ‘copy’ the comment from it above… another ‘comment’ that was right underneath Brolin’s initial TEXT that I also went back to ‘copy’ got DELETED.

    There WAS a comment left there on this photo of Brolin and McCarty that was from Bill Gabbert, the sole author of the ‘Wildfire Today’ BLOG site.

    Bill Gabbert was commenting ( via his OWN ‘Instagram’ account ) on this photo of Brolin and McCarty… and he also was fully indentifying himself and asking actor Josh Brolin if he could INTERVIEW him for ‘Wildfire Today’.

    But that comment has just been DELETED ( by Brolin himself? ).

    • Charlie says

      Something I do hope they add to the movie is the religious angle the GMHS are known for. Jim Jones would have been proud of how the leaders here buffaloed their subordinates into the “God thing”, with the duly appointed and respectfully followed leaders of the group. I am so proud that Donut found a God of sorts. Somewhere down the line it might hit him that the God the GMHS crew had was a bit bogus. Any God that would lead you into an inferno sounds like the devil to me. But Willis did say that God had other plans for them–what?–stoking furnaces?
      Well praise the good lord and pass the bullets–maybe a shot of whiskey or a beer too. That is a damn good god with that type thinking–or in other words a lord that gives one brain enough to have one. I like atheists–they tell the truth more often.

      I have had some thoughts on this since I was there where they went down. Why would I know better while 19 men did not. It damn sure is not because I am more intelligent. But experience since child hood of living though these storms had inculcated into my subconscious what I knew was going to happen without conscious awareness. Those wind changes had happened with the same conditions so often and suddenly during my childhood that I knew it would happen without having to think about it. Joy did not know it, nor did those men. It was a matter of subconscious for me, and even after I had gotten Joy to follow, it was a task to keep her moving. You can die trying to save others–but we did beat the bell toll by ten or eleven minutes- good enough–but barely.

      • Bob Powers says

        If you have not watched all the movies that have been produced over the past 70 years they are all Hollywood productions.
        The fires are faked the actions of the Fire Fighters are not correct appropriate or factual. The movie is to make money and the more horrific the fire the scenes and the heroism the better. It is a move not a history film.

        Every one is heroes no one did any thing that killed the crew they will die HEROES in the movie,
        I wont spend my time watching it or commenting on it.

        • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

          Reply to Bob Powers post on July 17, 2016 at 11:02 am

          >> Bob Powers said…
          >>
          >> The movie is to make money and the more horrific the fire
          >> scenes and the heroism the better. It is a move not a history film.

          Yep.

          See the ‘new’ post above that has a link to actor Josh Brolin’s own PUBLIC ‘social media’ page where he has now launched how own personal ATTACK against John Dougherty and InvestigativeMEDIA.

          It appears that even now…. actor Josh Brolin is completely ‘clueless’ that people like YOURSELF… with your reputation, experience and ‘skin in the game’…. are among those who have never bought into the BULLSHIT following the Yarnell Hill tragedy… and who are STILL concerned about the “Lessons to be Learned” and keeping OTHER firefighters from suffering the same fate as GM.

          http://www.investigativemedia.com/please-begin-yarnell-hill-fire-chapter-xxii-here/#comment-342153

        • rocksteady says

          Hey Bob, I believe everyone one of us on here should watch the movie and make a list of all of the inaccuracies portrayed in the movie, so that when the media and or movie critics start toot the horn of this movie as being so great, they can come to IM and see the list of falsehoods…

          Sort of like the old days when you paid your nickel to guess how many jelly beans were in the 1 gallon pickle jar… You pay to play… 🙂

          Spending $15 and a couple hours of your time in a dark air conditioned theatre in order to be able to come on here and say “I have seen the movie and its total horse shit” is what your nickel is giving you the first hand opportunity to do..

          Maybe we should start it off that everyone can pledge a nickel to see how many wrong things (jelley beans) are noticed in this movie (pickle jar)…

          I am going to say 278…

          We will have to find an impartial 3 person judging team though in case there is controversy if a bit in the movie is a lie, an inaccuracy, or maybe just an oops that was unavoidable…

          • Muzzy says

            I think it’s important to distinguish between factual lapses that serve to make the plot more understandable and those that divert attention from important truths. For example, the names and units of individuals who tried to correct Marsh’s risky and poorly disciplined firefighting style are not important, but if there is no mention of those things at all, an important opportunity is lost. Frequently, movies contain composite characters that represent the same or similar real-life characters in the plot. For example, the whole real-life city government may be represented by the Willis character, such that his words would reflect all the problems with higher-ups. That is ok, as there are already so many people to keep track off. What would be wrong is skirting the issue of budget concerns and the insecurity and even perceived danger to the hotshot crew that might have driven the decision making when the crew left the black, or just as they descended into the box canyon.

            I’m afraid that the plot will be driven instead by the false narrative that the virtuous, innovative, and worthy Marsh was driven from firefighting by the big, bad, snobbish Feds, and forged his own path through a supportive and grateful local department who valued him, and his leadership style, which was good-natured but tough.

            There are a couple of ways to play this kind of plot. If I were doing this, I would choose Das Boot (submarine story of WWII German captain and crew released in the 60s or 70s) as the model, moody, gritty, taut, slow moving but suspenseful. A story of a good but flawed working stiff just trying to make a living, ground in a mill cranked by powerful men who are far away in miles and worldview. It would be excellent (in my head, anyway), but even in my fantasy, I know it won’t make money.

            Let’s face it, this is going to be an action film for 18-35 year old white males. Sorry, Gary, no extra bar pickup opportunities for hotshots!

            • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

              Reply to Muzzy post on July 18, 2016 at 12:34 pm.

              >> Muzzy said…
              >>
              >> Frequently, movies contain composite characters that
              >> represent the same or similar real-life characters in the plot.

              Exactly.

              They have already announced that they have ‘cast’ an ‘Incident Commander’ ( Actor John Trejo, who is HALF Roy Hall’s age )… but it’s still not clear who ( or what ) actor ‘Jeff Bridges’ is playing.

              My guess there would be ‘Darrell Willis’… but they might be using Bridges ( since he’s so expensive ) as a ‘composite’ of any number of people and ( like you said ) just representing “the powers that be” in Prescott.

              But I really doubt that they will ACTUALLY show the screwed-up command structure that was happening in Yarnell on June 30, 2013.

              Actor Trejo is going to supposedly be an ‘Incident Commander’… and presumably the ‘Roy Hall’ character… but I doubt they are going to even go near the fact that at the time the men died… there were TWO fully functioning ‘Field OPS’ in Yarnell… one of whom ( Paul Musser ) had just ‘jumped in’ to the fire from being just the ‘Planning OPS’ that day… and that this ‘confusion’ might have actually been a contributing factor in the deaths of those men ( Conflicting ORDERS coming from multiple sources ).

              Nah… too complicated for just a TRIBUTE movie.

              Of COURSE anyone who knows anything about the Yarnell Hill Fire will probably be able to pick this TRIBUTE thing apart all over the place… but the REAL concern is whether or not they take it into ‘La-la Land’ and it ends up TOTALLY ‘off the rails’ with regards to the TRUTH.

              Arizona Occupational Safety and Health agency ALREADY determined ( officially ) that it was a VERY screwed-up ‘workplace’…. and they have ALREADY issued HISTORIC fines. The most they have EVER issued against any Arizona employer…. and indeed… the MAXIMUM they were even ALLOWED to issue, by law.

              Will this TRIBUTE thing even ‘go there’?

              Will people be walking out of the theatre sayinig…

              “Man… those poor guys. That workplace was FUCKED UP”.

              Or will people be walking out of the theatre with the same look on their faces that the family members had when they walked out of that original “Special Accident ( cough, cough ) Investigation Report” meeting… with not a single CLUE as to WHY 19 supposedly professional firefighters burned to death on the floor of a blind box canyon full of explosive fuel, with no lookout?

              No one is expecting these ‘movie people’ to INVESTIGATE anything… but they still have to make CHOICES just to get this puppy in the can.

              CHOICES like… where do THEY think Marsh actually was… and did Marsh actually ORDER Steed to bring the men down following an argument where Steed himself said flat-out he considered it a ‘dangerous move’ and did not WANT to attempt it?

              We shall see.

  24. WantsToKnowTheTruth says

    **
    ** NOT SO CONTROLLED BURN

    Movie actor Geoff Stults, who is one of the ‘fake Hotshots’ in this Granite Mountain ‘movie’ thing, has posted a new video on his own PUBLIC ‘Instagram’ page showing himself and the other ‘fake’ Hotshots actually near some REAL fire this time.

    Geoff Stults calls it a (quote) “not so controlled burn”.

    It actually looks like the REAL firefighters on the movie set DID have this ‘under control’… but maybe it just didn’t look that way to actor Geoff Stults.

    Here is the VIDEO…

    https://www.instagram.com/p/BHXBiMYBTUX/?taken-by=geoffmstults

    Something interesting to notice in this video is that as the camera pans around… we appear to see al;most TWO full ‘Hotshot’ crews.

    The crew BEHIND the camera appears to be the ‘fake’ Granite Mountain Hotshots… but when actor Geoff Stults pans around to what is in FRONT of him… we seem to see ANOTHER full set of Hotshots ‘leading’ them.

    Maybe this is the ‘Sante Fe Hotshtos’, who have also been rumored to have been HIRED to assist in the making of this Granite Mountain ‘movie’ thing.

  25. WantsToKnowTheTruth says

    **
    ** ALAN SINCLAIR IS ALSO A PAID MOVIE CONSULTANT?

    It is already known that former GM Hotshot Pat McCarty is being ‘paid’ to be a primary consultant for this ‘Granite Mountain’ movie thing and is somehow appearing in the film itself… and that former GM Hotshot Brandon Bunch is already listed as being a PAID ACTOR for the film ( playing his deceased
    friend Garret Zuppiger )…

    …but it now appears that Eric Marsh’s old ( close ) friend Alan Sinclair ( and the Incident Commander for the recent Yarnell ‘Tenderfoot Fire’ ) is ALSO involved in the ‘production’ in some official capacity.

    Here is a PHOTO that actor Josh Brolin ( who is playing deceased GM Hotshot Eric Marsh ) posted to his PUBLIC Instagram page.

    It was taken ‘on the set’ with Brolin in full Hotshot costume with former GM Hotshot Pat McCarty on Brolin’s ‘right’… and now Alan Sinclair on his ‘left’…

    https://www.instagram.com/p/BHW_dWnDHcq/?taken-by=joshbrolin&hl=en

    Here is the TEXT that Brolin himself posted along with the photo…

    ——————————————————————
    joshbrolin
    Me, Firefighter Pat McCarty, and Incident Commander Alan Sinclair on a hero rock watching a controlled fire just before a big rain rolled in.
    New Mexico. @wildland_firefighters @wildlandfirefighting @us_hotshots #standuppeople #goodpeople

    ——————————————————————

    Yes… this is the SAME ‘Alan Sinclair’ who just recently published his own ‘research’ into the Yarnell Hill Fire along with former firefighter Holly Neill. ( See below in this same chapter ).

    These are the TWO people that book author John Maclean calls his “research team”.

    It is also RUMORED that ‘Alan Sinclair’ himself *might* be the person that Amanda Marsh is now in a ( her words ) “relationship” with.

    According to Amanda Marsh’s own ‘description’ of this ‘person’… Alan Sinclair fits her ‘description’ and Amanda Marsh was known to have been ‘visiting’ the ‘Tenderfoot Fire’ incident recently where Alan Sinclair was the ‘IC’.

    Who Amanda Marsh is or isn’t in a ‘relationship’ with is, of course, her business, but if it really is “one of author John Maclean’s researchers’ and someone who is KNOWN to have already publicly been releasing his own ‘evidence’ regarding the Yarnell Hill Fire… and who CONTINUES to be one of author John Maclean’s ‘researchers’… that puts a slightly different ‘perspective’ on things.

    In Amanda Marsh’s own words…

    The Arizona Republic ( AZCENTRAL )
    Article Title: Holding on to what was theirs: A Granite Mountain Hotshot widow’s story
    Published: 4:02 a.m. MST June 26, 2016 – By: Yvonne Wingett Sanchez
    http://www.azcentral.com/story/news/local/arizona-best-reads/2016/06/26/granite-mountain-hotshot-widows-story/85890188/

    From this recent article…
    ——————————————————-
    Amanda Marsh is ‘the widow’, but she is not alone.

    She has found love again, to another first responder. They met last year.

    She guards the details of their relationship but said he’s someone who was
    also “very close” to the fire.

    They share their grief.

    “He gives me all kinds of room to be who I need to be, and to grieve,” she says.
    “I’m still very married to Eric, but I AM in a relationship with another man.”

    ——————————————————-

    • Robert the Second says

      WTKTT,

      What do you mean by this statement? What “previously unknown group of Type 1 Hotshots who were actually working the Yarnell Hill Fire” are you specifically referring to?

      “It actually means the people doing this movie thing have, apparently, researched it SO well that they have found a previously unknown group of Type 1 Hotshots who were actually working the Yarnell Hill Fire.”

      • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

        Reply to Robert the Second ( RTS ) post on July 16, 2016 at 6:25 pm

        >> RTS said…
        >>
        >> WTKTT,
        >>
        >> What do you mean by this statement? What “previously unknown
        >> group of Type 1 Hotshots who were actually working the Yarnell
        >> Hill Fire” are you specifically referring to?

        That was total sarcasm. Sorry you missed it.

        And I already responded to this below where you asked the same exact question…

        http://www.investigativemedia.com/please-begin-yarnell-hill-fire-chapter-xxii-here/#comment-342079

        BTW: I typed that ‘sarcasm’ when I thought the reference to “Blue RIVER Hotshots” was just some massive TYPO fuck-up on the part of the ‘movie’ people.

        Turns out it is neither a TYPO nor a ‘fuck-up’.

        They ( the movie people ) really ARE either DECIDING and/or have been FORCED to change the name of the “Blue RIVER Hotshots” to the “Blue RIVER Hotshots”.

        And since they have already announced that Latino actor Rene Herrera is playing the leader of the “Blue RIVER Hotshots”… does that mean they are also DECIDING and/or are being FORCED to change his ‘character’ name from “Brian Frisby” to ( perhaps ) something like “Bernie Farsby”?

        • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

          Dang… another TYPO on MY part.

          Meant to say ( above )…

          They ( the movie people ) really ARE either DECIDING and/or have been FORCED to change the name of the “Blue RIDGE Hotshots” to the “Blue RIVER Hotshots”.

    • Robert the Second says

      WTKTT,

      You posted: “It is also RUMORED that ‘Alan Sinclair’ himself *might* be the person that Amanda Marsh is now in a ( her words ) “relationship” with.”

      That’s exactly what it is, a RUMOR.

      Sinclair and both Eric and Amanda Marsh have/had been friends since Eric worked on the Globe Ranger District, long before the June 2013 YH Fire.

      And he is likely NOT a paid movie consultant since that may very well be a conflict of interest with his real job.

      • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

        Reply to Robert the Second ( RTS ) post on
        July 16, 2016 at 6:29 pm

        >> RTS said…
        >>
        >> Sinclair and both Eric and Amanda Marsh have/had been
        >> friends since Eric worked on the Globe Ranger District, long
        >> before the June 2013 YH Fire.

        It’s also true that Amanda Marsh told the reporter that the ‘new man’ that she is “in a relationship with” is someone she only met ‘last year’.

        Given the long friendship between Alan Sinclair and Eric Marsh… it seems likely that Amanda would certainly have ‘met’ Alan Sinclair sooner than just 1 year ago… but it also remains a fact that Alan Sinclair FITS the general description.

        >> RTS said…
        >>
        >> And he is likely NOT a paid movie consultant since that may very
        >> well be a conflict of interest with his real job.

        So… how is Prescott Fire Department employee Pat McCarty pulling it off?

        If the people you work for give you PERMISSION to accept an ‘outside contract’… then it’s not a ‘conflict of interest’ at all.

        The “conflict of interest” with regards to Alan Sinclair that would ‘bother’ me is if he is accepting money for working on a movie which the producers themselves have ALREADY ‘announced’ really just has the sole purpose of GLORIFYING the “Granite Mountain Hotshots”… but then Alan Sinclair remains listed as one of author John Maclean’s PRIMARY RESEARCH ASSISTANTS for that ‘commercial venture’ and while THAT ‘for profit’ book limps its way to the marketplace.

        Not sure how many movie sets you have been on… but they don’t usually let just ‘sightseers’ hang around on the actual set… much less around the lead actors while they are in full costume and makeup and ‘at work’.

        If you are THERE ( as the photo shows Sinclair was )… you usually have an ‘official’ REASON to be there.

        Even if Sinclair is doing something for the movie as an ‘unpaid consultant’… I think that makes his ‘other’ role as one of John Maclean’s primary research assistants more than a little ‘suspect’.

        Maybe John Maclean himself didn’t fall off the turnip truck yesterday… and he is smart enough to ‘sort out’ the agendas of his own ‘research assistants’.

        I certainly hope so.

        • Robert the Second says

          WTKTT,

          You posted: “but it also remains a fact that Alan Sinclair FITS the general description.”

          Amanda Marsh’s interview said “She has found love again, to another first responder. They met last year.”

          Sinclair does NOT FIT “the general description” because he is NOT “another first responder” and they did NOT just meet “last year.”

          She has to have another beau that is a “first responder” and they “met last year.”

          • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

            See my other comment above.

            Yes.. given the LONG ‘friendship’ between Alan Sinclair and Eric Marsh… it DOES seem highly likely that Sinclair would have met Amanda earlier than just 1 year ago.

            But as for ‘first responder’… I think a lot of these WFF people DO consider themselves ‘first responders’… and the media is now well accustomed to referring to them that way ( even if they are not ACTUALLY, officially part of any kind of ‘Initial Attack’ crew ).

            But with or without any potential ‘romantic’ connection back to Amanda Marsh… I think Alan Sinclair’s involvement with the ‘movie’ thing still might represent a direct ‘conflict of interest’ with his OTHER self-appointed role as one of author John Maclean’s PRIMARY RESEARCHERS.

            I just hope author John Maclean is doing the correct amount of ‘buyer beware’ for any/all ‘research information’ he is getting from BOTH Alan Sinclair AND Holly Neill.

          • Joy A. Collura says

            A local here can confirm she is not dating Sinclair and he knew Eric and has been there for his best friend and its dumb to read that wwtktt..like a national enquirer tidbit because there is more public information that also proves sinair has a lovely wife and so I disagree of talk about marsh and Sinclair… RTS is spot on here

            • Joy A. Collura says

              I do think because Alan was a “friend” to Eric for a very long time long before GMHS and long before either men had married their sweethearts that he is the proper person to represent Eric Marsh for any book or movies and I do not feel it is a conflict or interest- how? Because he is an incident commander?

              also did not mean you were giving out tidbit comparable to national enquirer just seem so far fecthed like something you read in those kind of places…sorry wwtktt

              • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

                Joy… see my other comment below.

                Based on what you have said… count me as someone who now no longer believes any ‘rumors’ that Alan Sinclair is the person who Amanda Marsh is having a ‘relationship’ with ( other than friendship ).

                But Alan Sinclair IS, still, the person who just recently revealed himself as that ‘other’ ‘primary researcher’ working for book author John Maclean ( along with this Holly Neill person ).

                And now there he is ( in Josh Brolin’s own photo ) also showing up ‘on the movie set’.

                • Joy A. Collura says

                  yeah but again Alan was a friend a long time to Eric so to me I would want my good friend to represent me in all areas about me…you know.

            • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

              Thank you, Joy. Based on that… then I am no longer someone who believes the rumor that the person Amanda Marsh *might* now be having a ‘relationship’ with is Alan Sinclair.

              But regardless… Alan Sinclair IS also the person who recently revealed himself as that ‘other’ PRIMARY research assistant working WITH Holly Neill…. and that both of them have been working FOR book author John Maclean.

              His ‘relationship’ to the ‘movie’ is not fully known… but that really is HIM sitting on that rock ‘on the movie set’ with former GM Hotshot-turned-actor-and-movie consultant Pat McCarty… and lead actor ( playing Eric Marsh ) Josh Brolin.

  26. WantsToKnowTheTruth says

    **
    ** THE ‘BLUE RIVER HOTSHOTS’ — UPDATE

    As it turns out… that doesn’t appear to be a TYPO at all on the IMDB page.

    Darin Eppich is a ‘producer’ involved with this ‘Granite Mountain’ movie thing and he has been ‘on the set’ there in New Mexico and posting photos to his own PUBLIC social media ( Instagram ) site.

    Look closely at the following photo he posted ‘from the set’…

    https://www.instagram.com/p/BHx_XUIju__/?taken-by=darineppich&hl=en

    Sitting on the ‘bumper’ of the US Forestry-colored vehicle, next to the ‘camera slate’ with the ‘Granite Mountain’ film logos are two BLUE HELMETS.

    The BLUE HELMETS actually say “The Blue RIVER Hotshots”… and the logo is some kind of made-up Salmon jumping out of a ‘River’.

    So it appears that the listing of Latino actor ‘Rene Herrera’ as being cast to play the “Captain of the Blue River Hotshots” on the IMDB page isn’t some kind of massive TYPO at all.

    What appears to be actually going on here is that either the Movie people DECIDED not to actually use the name “Blue Ridge Hotshots”… or they could not obtain PERMISSION from the US Forestry Service and/or the “Blue Ridge Hotshots” organization to use their name in the film.

    So they just CHANGED it from “Blue Ridge Hotshots” to “Blue River Hotshots” and made up their own fake logo for this fake Type 1 IHC crew.

    Also… producer Darrin Eppich has now also ‘put to rest’ another rumor that the movie people might actually try to film at the actual ‘Granite Mountain Station 7’ in Prescott.

    Eppich has posted ANOTHER photo of what appears to be the ‘fake’ Granite Mountain Station 7 there in New Mexico… with the actual 2 Granite Mountain Crew Carriers parked at it…

    https://www.instagram.com/p/BH5LpLSjXpH/?taken-by=darineppich&hl=en

    There are still NO reports of anyone even trying to obtain ‘filming permits’ anywhere in the Prescott area… so it really does look like the ‘movie people’ have decided to give Arizona ( and Prescott and Yarnell ) a complete and total ‘miss’ with regards to this ‘movie’ thing.

    • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

      Another interesting PUBLIC Instagram post from the set of this ‘Granite Mountain’ movie thing from producer Darin Eppich.

      This one is actually a VIDEO which shows the ‘fake smoke’ they are using extensively.

      It’s a ‘fogging machine’ on steroids.

      It does NOT look REAL at all… but movie goers/payers will probably buy it… and isn’t that all that really matters?

      https://www.instagram.com/p/BHvtDlEjdUW/?taken-by=darineppich&hl=en

      • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

        Also… 48 hours ago… Actor Miles Teller was allowed to ‘leave’ the New Mexico film set and go off and appear as a ‘presenter’ at this year’s EPSY awards.

        Miles Teller is now known to be the one playing Brendan McDonough… and the producers have already said that whatever this film is ‘about’… the ‘story’ is somehow being told via the relationship between Eric Marsh and Brendan McDonough.

        Whatever.

        It is also known that Miles Teller is trying to LOOK like Brendan McDonough and is going with the same sort of ‘blond-hair buzz cut’.

        But at the EPSY awards… the media freaked out because it’s the first time they’ve seen Miles Teller with his ‘blond hair’… and they were all accusing him of trying to imitate Eminem, or look like him.

        Anyway… here is probably the only glimpse prior to the movie coming out of what Miles Teller’s imitation of Brendan McDonough actually LOOKS like…

        http://www.esquire.com/style/news/a46709/miles-teller-hair/

  27. WantsToKnowTheTruth says

    **
    ** BARNBURNER

    Looks like this ‘Granite Mountain’ movie thing is including the obligatory “Barn Burning + Frightened Horses” that one would expect in a ‘Fire’ movie.

    Executive Producer Ellen Schwartz has posted TWO photos to her PUBLIC Instagram account taken on the ‘set’ of the ‘movie’.

    One is a ‘barn’ engulfed in flames, and the other is a the standard ‘Frightened/Rearing’ horse.

    Here is the ‘Barn Burning’…

    https://www.instagram.com/p/BHuaXTvgX1G/

    And here is the ‘Frightened/Rearing horse’…

    NOTE: There is no actual FLAME seen near the horse in this photo as it is ‘rearing up’ ( under what appears to be the control of a ‘trainer’? I certainly hope so )… but there is plenty of SMOKE…

    https://www.instagram.com/p/BHuiUXmgDDp/?taken-by=ellenhschwartz

    I guess we can expect the following obligatory blurb as the credits roll… but perhaps with a ‘twist’ this time?…

    “No animals were harmed during the making of this picture… and just as a precaution… they were all treated with EMDR ( Eye Movement Desensitization and Reprocessing ) therapy afterwards just in case any of them were suffering from any PTSD. They all appear to be just fine.”

    • Gary Olson says

      Now this….“No animals were harmed during the making of this picture… and just as a precaution… they were all treated with EMDR ( Eye Movement Desensitization and Reprocessing ) therapy afterwards just in case any of them were suffering from any PTSD. They all appear to be just fine.”

      is a HOOT!

      Although I like it better when “the obligatory “Barn Burning + Frightened Horses” that one would expect in a ‘Fire’ movie” happens at night…it is always so much more DRAMATIC!

      • Charlie says

        On the discussion of good men– no one is throwing stones in a glass house.

        On that mountain at the very spot those men descended toward the Helms bombproof safety zone, Joy and I did argue as did Marsh and Steed as to the directions to take. I was adamant not to drop down into that basin, Joy was adamant to drop down. The difference there was Joy was not wanting to go up the mountain and that hike through the basin was a shorter and direct route back to Yarnell. Also we are both adult people and I am not her boss, nor is she mine. Marsh had power over Steed, but I had none over Joy and her decision. Yet by the time I topped the mountain enough sense came into me to return and demand she follow me out in a direction away from the fire. See Joy and I had hiked from the MVD in Prescott all the way to Wilhoit until her husband got off work and picked us up about about 2AM. Then we hiked Saturday toward the fire line until evening when she saw a black bear and decided we ought to turn back. Then Sunday we took that long route through the brush and heat of the day–so she was definitely tired. I was as well–but Joy is a city gal and despite her hiking in the Desert, she does not know danger when she should.

        I doubt I would have been charged with negligence for not going back, but if I had not I am certain she would not have made it out her way in time. She, however did not know the danger of going toward a reversible fire that she believed would only continue toward Peeples Valley and that despite my telling her that the thunder storms were a bad omen and there would be no escape if it changed and we were caught in that basin. Despite her stubbornness, I could not imagine living with the guilt of not going back to once again trying to drag her out. She weighs in at over 200 and me at 140–so not an easy chore. Fortunately she was there with sore and swollen feet and her boots off, still under that small pinon tree. She had been there 40 minutes when I got back and likely would have been there until the GMHS headed back toward her on the two track.

        Does that make me a hero? Hell no. In fact I had some anger to the fact that I had to go back and risk the chance that the fire would change and I had lost that time putting myself more at risk then back track up the mountain again in the 100 degree plus day.

        The sad thing here is that Marsh and Steed knew they were risking their men and those men were under their command. Joy was not under my command, yet I could have made the mistake of leaving her to her own peril. When I decease, which doctors say should be by this coming November, I certainly want to meet Marsh and Steed on the other side to find out why they risked their mens lives for structure protection.

    • Charlie says

      The tragedy of the Yarnell Hill Fire movie is that the real story will not be told. When we passed a prison crew in orange jump suits picking up trash along the highway, there were two of the men ahead of the main group. I told Joy there is Marsh and Steed. That is were they would be for their negligence in protecting the lives of the 17 young men under their command that they caused the deaths of. There are a few others that are above Marsh and Steed that would be joining the crew as well. Instead we see Marsh’s widow and others touting them as heroes and attempting to make them out as wonderful examples of the wild land fire fighting profession and its management. Nothing could be so far from the truth.

      Yesterday Joy and I went to see if we would take down a tower for the lumber. In the photos it looked good, but once there you could see that it was rotted badly–two platforms of the 40 foot high structure were rotted so badly that the 2×6 planks had partially falled out so much that about half the platforms were missing. You could only walk on the outer rim of edge wise 4×8 lumber that rimmed the platform on top. The top platform was about 10’x10′ and the lower platform about 20×20 ft. with a rotted stairway up to it. Of the four supporting logs, one had rotted so that it had to be reinforced with steel straps and two by sixes and meantime another had rotted almost in two. A good wind would have blown it over into his home or one of the structures on either side.

      The thing was it certainly was not worth the rotted lumber for the job of removing it. Joy learned that five people had refused to remove it and a professional crew saw it as too dangerous and too near the $350,000 home, a dog kennel and a sheds on both sided of this thing that would sustain damage if it fell wrong. But we noticed he had two young kids and he is a hero in his Army Sergeant profession of training German Shepherds for the military. Those kids were bound to get onto to that structure and fall through either platform or off that rickety ladder that lead to the top. He said lightening had struck the tower before, why the reinforced leg on one side, but I noticed another supporting timber had pretty well rotted as well.

      One thing about much of Arizona pine logs is that they don’t get enough moisture during growth and even the new lumber of this area is brittle. It does not stand weather long either and is prone to rot quickly–you are better off with Oregon or northern pine if you need strength and longevity.

      So seeing what this man does and that he himself would not be a good candidate to do this job. I thought what the hell, I have the experience and can drop that tower–and if I were ten years younger in twice the time–this is what Joy calls a God thing to do–and maybe it is. Perhaps Joy will post pictures of the tower and this old guy up near the top with chain saw hanging off with one hand and the other topping the tower so I can fall it in pieces so that his home and sheds and kennel were not damaged. I have never liked heights, but never thought much of dropping down mine shafts–this reminded me of an old mine hoist structure.

      The point is the pro was right in not risking his men or those structures to do that job. He would have had to do it himself to avoid risking others, something he apparently did not want to do. So up there, I felt like Gary must have felt acting like Evil Kanevil. But I definitely had good reason to fall that tower seeing those little kids involved and knowing this guy with a cookie cutter Poulan chain saw had no clue.

      That man came out and watched and his two young ones with him and I was assured they kept well back as did I have to make sure Joy did as well. The risk was my own, had I allowed Joy to get hurt or that man or those kids then I should have deserved an orange jump suit as well. It is only common sense to take care of the safety of persons involved in a dangerous situation — to not do so then your negligence that injures or kills others is criminal even if your intentions were honorable.

      Will this movie teach that lesson and make managers of wild land fire fighters careful of their subordinate’s lives?

      The Tower and the man and wonderful children– He left during the job, But when he returned, he must have wondered and been relieved at seeing that the rotted tower was gone–it is still loaded on my old 73 Chevy and trailer behind–not very good firewood but good starter wood–but Joy says about four pieces of good barnwood and she is going to have me cut four strips out of one to send to her mom back east. He mom makes unique picture frames and Joy has some family photos she wants framed that way.

      • Charlie says

        plus she wants to make a frame for this family as a memento since that tower was there for many decades. Joy said she will email the InvestigativeMedia crew the photos.

        • Joy A. Collura says

          Charlie-

          it was also an enlightenment day too for Kyle-
          not because of us following through to break the tower down but because
          I said something to him private and he went in his home called his mother and said his mother has too had the same message I saw—and to confirm the private message- the horse I spoke to Kyle about; when he was young his father use to ride horses so it meant something to his family when I mentioned the horse and no way I could know that…I said I did not mention it to be creepy or freaky but this man Donald just wanted the message to be shown and I almost kept quiet. I explained to Kyle that this death was sudden and fast and he was too young and the rest was private to Kyle…he looked at me like no one could know how his dad died but he died of a sudden stroke and that was it- that is how life can change oh so quick like the blinking of an eye just like 19 men dying and the lives around them forever changed—so part of my mother’s side genetics surfaced for me today as the doc said he has to do a hida on me in addition to the other tests to rule out or rule in the gall bladder- My insurance did not cover this special prescription he gave me and I have to take it before the test and $60 but my mom said that is nothing…some of her meds are into the hundreds and I told her I am not a pharmaceutical gal so ain’t there another way—of course “ain’t” bothers some like I am uneducated but it stuck to me from my Mississippi visiting days- that and “reckon”…the photos of that tower were sent to the IM crew- check your inboxes. I need to figure my schedule out so no IM reading for me today…too many doctors- one here and another there just seems like a bullshit to me but I am “listening” and it is not too easy for me to pay for this stuff to take before tests—I can see Metamucil or electrolytes…good night…I told them today from MY point of view I can’t be too bad if it is an appt here and there setup vs just getting it handled…has anyone had to deal with this route due to type of insurance? Now I do wish the good old days were back when insurance was different…OBAMADONTCARE is not for me…I want to go in and get it done when I finally surrender to that area so it is hard to grasp—go here and there and follow ups and etc…

      • Robert the Second says

        Charlie,

        You posted: “The tragedy of the Yarnell Hill Fire movie is that the real story will not be told. …. Instead [of Marsh and Steed being held accountable for negligence in the deaths of 17 men’ we see Marsh’s widow and others touting them as heroes and attempting to make them out as wonderful examples of the wild land fire fighting profession and its management. Nothing could be so far from the truth.”

        Thanks for saying what needs to be said.

        • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

          Even recently… on the THIRD anniversary…. some major media outlets were actually saying things like “…and the fire overtook them where they were WORKING”… or… “…the Hotshots had been WORKING on the western part of the fire when the wind-driven fire surrounded them and cut off their escape routes”.

          A total and complete inability to accept the FACT that the only reason they were in a place where they would have ‘no escape’ and be ‘burned to death’ is because they DECIDED ( themselves ) to BE there.

          They were not WORKING that ‘area’ where they burned to death.

          They were simply MOVING from where they were SAFE… to where they were NOT SAFE…. and they paid the ultimate price for that risky/bad decision.

          But just like Mike Dudley and the SAIT didn’t want to ‘go there’ with regards to any testimony about PRIOR bad decision making on the part of this organization and its leadership… the MEDIA itself still doesn’t want to ‘go there’ with regards to any possible scenario other than… “The big bad fire just came and got them”.

          It’s really quite astounding what is ( and always has been ) going on with this ‘story’… and people’s inability to even be interested in ‘the truth’.

          It is ( and always has been ) telling us a LOT about OURSELVES… and how we somehow CLING to ‘hero worship’ and the lengths some people in the ‘hero business’ will go to just to keep ‘butts in the seats’.

          • Charlie says

            True statements here from WTKTT. WTKTT is a hero of mine along with Gary, Bob, RTS and others here-all honorable people willing to hold to the truth in this horrible situation that occurred because of failure to respect the laws of nature and rules of safety. Had persons of experience been honest from the beginning rather than trying to protect reputations this web site would have never been necessary. The nature of lies is their down the line and sadly it involves more wild land fire fighter lives. All the attempts to paint this thing as an accident only adds to the danger of wild land fire fighting. Lives are worth the truth here.

  28. WantsToKnowTheTruth says

    **
    ** THE ‘BLUE RIVER’ HOTSHOTS…
    **
    ** …AND MORE ‘STUPID HOTSHOT PET TRICKS’…

    Well… this ‘Granite Mountain’ movie thing keeps ‘announcing’ more and more ‘actors’ signing onto the thing… and the OFFICIAL IMDB page is now saying they have cast a semi-famous Latino actor named ‘Rene Herrera’ to play the Superintendent of the “Blue River Hotshots” ( no typo there )…

    http://www.imdb.com/title/tt3829920/fullcredits?ref_=tt_cl_sm#cast

    I’m actually suddenly quite encouraged by this OFFICIAL ‘announcement’.

    It actually means the people doing this movie thing have, apparently, researched it SO well that they have found a previously unknown group of Type 1 Hotshots who were actually working the Yarnell Hill Fire.

    Maybe we all really WILL learning something about the Yarnell Hill Fire by seeing this movie after all.

    And following the already-released video of actor Geoff Stultz and other actors playing ‘Granite Mountain Hotshots’ puking their socks off after accepting the self-waterboarding 4-4-40 ‘challenge’… I guess it was inevitable that we now have more ‘video’ from the movie set of more classic ‘stupid Hotshot Pet Tricks’.

    Here is former Granite Mountain Hotshot turned ACTOR ( playing his deceased old-friend Garret Zuppiger ) opening beer bottles on the movie set with his chainsaw…

    https://www.instagram.com/p/BGxy9Tvjoh4/?taken-by=dylzenvision

    • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

      Correction for above.

      Latino actor ‘Rene Herrera’ is NOT being officially listed as playing the ‘Superintendent’ of the ‘Blue River Hotshots’.

      He is being officially ‘announced’ as playing just the ‘Captain’ of the ‘Blue River Hotshots’.

      And as for the ‘Opening bottles with a chainsaw’ trick…

      The WORLD RECORD is actually 23 bottles opened in 60 seconds.

      Guinness World Records
      http://www.guinnessworldrecords.com/world-records/89681-most-beer-bottles-opened-by-chainsaw-in-one-minute
      ——————————————————————————–
      The most beer bottles opened by chainsaw in one minute is 23 and was achieved by Andrew Younghusband (Canada) on the set of “Tougher Than It Looks”, in Toronto, Ontario, Canada, on 25 April 2016.

      Andrew broke the record on his FIRST attempt.
      —————————————————————————

      Yes… his LAST NAME really is “Younghusband” ( all one word ).
      Can’t make this stuff up.

      And here is a VIDEO of the previous world record holder from 2014.

      The reason he didn’t reach 23 is because he chipped the glass on some of the bottles as he was opening them with his chainsaw… so in official ‘world record’ circles… that ‘disqualifies’ those bottles.

      SIDENOTE: Yes… this really is dangerous… and if you don’t use eye protection when doing it ( Brandon Bunch himself was NOT )… then you are pretty much an idiot.

      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DN_-haAMPT4

      ** FIVE BOTTLES AT ONCE!

      Now HERE is something else that SHOULD ( also ) be in the “Guinness Book of World Records”.

      Some dude posting a public YouTube video of him opening FIVE BOTTLES AT ONCE with his Chainsaw.

      That’s right… FIVE BOTTLES AT THE SAME MOMENT!

      Apparently, the only reason he didn’t go for a full SIX-PACK was because the dinky bar on the chainsaw he was using just wasn’t LONG enough…

      You really should watch this.

      Makes Brandon Bunch look like a rank amateur with HIS one-at-a-time ‘movie set’ trick…

      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AOda_e6EtHs

    • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

      Correction for above.

      Latino actor ‘Rene Herrera’ is NOT being officially listed as playing the ‘Superintendent’ of the ‘Blue River Hotshots’.

      He is being officially ‘announced’ as playing just the ‘Captain’ of the ‘Blue River Hotshots’.

      And as for the ‘Opening bottles with a chainsaw’ trick…

      The WORLD RECORD is actually 23 bottles opened in 60 seconds.

      Guinness World Records
      http://www.guinnessworldrecords.com/world-records/89681-most-beer-bottles-opened-by-chainsaw-in-one-minute
      ——————————————————————————–
      The most beer bottles opened by chainsaw in one minute is 23 and was achieved by Andrew Younghusband (Canada) on the set of “Tougher Than It Looks”, in Toronto, Ontario, Canada, on 25 April 2016.

      Andrew broke the record on his FIRST attempt.
      —————————————————————————

      Yes… his LAST NAME really is “Younghusband” ( all one word ).
      Can’t make this stuff up.

      And here is a VIDEO of the previous world record holder from 2014.

      The reason he didn’t reach 23 is because he chipped the glass on some of the bottles as he was opening them with his chainsaw… so in official ‘world record’ circles… that ‘disqualifies’ those bottles.

      SIDENOTE: Yes… this really is dangerous… and if you don’t use eye protection when doing it ( Brandon Bunch himself was NOT )… then you are pretty much an idiot.

      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DN_-haAMPT4

      • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

        ** FIVE BOTTLES AT ONCE!

        Now HERE is something else that SHOULD ( also ) be in the “Guinness Book of World Records”.

        Some dude posting a public YouTube video of him opening FIVE BOTTLES AT ONCE with his Chainsaw.

        That’s right… FIVE BOTTLES AT THE SAME MOMENT!

        Apparently, the only reason he didn’t go for a full SIX-PACK was because the dinky bar on the chainsaw he was using just wasn’t LONG enough…

        You really should watch this.

        Makes Brandon Bunch look like a rank amateur with HIS one-at-a-time ‘movie set’ trick…

        https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AOda_e6EtHs

    • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

      Followup to the post above…

      Here is former Granite Mountain Hotshot turned ACTOR ( playing his deceased old-friend Garret Zuppiger ) opening beer bottles on the movie set with his chainsaw…

      https://www.instagram.com/p/BGxy9Tvjoh4/?taken-by=dylzenvision

      Yes… that really is one of the ACTUAL ( original ) Granite Mountain Crew Carriers seen there in the background while former GM Hotshot turned ACTOR Brandon Bunch is opening the beer bottle with his chainsaw there on the ‘set’ of this movie thing.

      The movie people have rented the ACTUAL ( original ) Granite Mountain vehicles from the City of Prescott for $45 a day per vehicle.

    • Robert the Second says

      WTKTT,

      What do you mean by this statement? What “previously unknown group of Type 1 Hotshots who were actually working the Yarnell Hill Fire” are you specifically referring to?

      “It actually means the people doing this movie thing have, apparently, researched it SO well that they have found a previously unknown group of Type 1 Hotshots who were actually working the Yarnell Hill Fire.”

      • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

        That was total sarcasm. Sorry you missed it.

        I was just facetiously ‘complimenting’ the movie people on apparently researching the Yarnell Fire so well that they somehow ‘found’ another group of Hotshots called the “Blue River Hotshots”… in ADDITION to the group we KNOW was there… “the Blue RIDGE Hotshots”.

        At the time I typed that ‘sarcasm’… I thought we were looking at just some massive TYPO fuck-up on the part of these ‘movie people’.

        As it turns out… it is neither a ‘type’ nor a ‘fuck-up’.

        They really ARE changing the name of the “Blue Ridge Hotshots” to the “Blue River Hotshots” just for this ‘movie’ thing… and they have even ‘invented’ a FAKE LOGO for their “Blue River Hotshots” that uses pretty much the same COLORS as the Granite Mountain Logo… but shows some ‘Salmon’ jumping out of some cartoonish ‘river’.

        That means they either DECIDED to NOT mention the REAL organization known as the “Blue Ridge Hotshots”… *OR*…. the were FORCED to change the name because the US Forestry service and/or the Blue Ridge Hotshots organization REFUSED PERMISSION for that ‘brand name’ to be used in their little ‘movie’.

        See the following ‘new’ post up above about this… with a link to a PHOTO of the actual ‘Blue Helmets’ they are actually using for this ‘made up’ group of Hotshots they are calling the “Blue River Hotshots’…

        http://www.investigativemedia.com/please-begin-yarnell-hill-fire-chapter-xxii-here/#comment-342038

        Makes you wonder…

        If they ( the movie people ) are either DECIDING or being FORCED to change the name of an organization directly involved in a National Historic Tragedy from “The Blue RIDGE Hotshots” to “The Blue RIVER Hotshots”… then as they film the scene where Latino actor Rene Herrera rescues actor Miles Teller ( Brendan McDonough ) from the lookout mound… are they going to change actor Rene Herrera’s character name from “Brian Frisby” to “Bernie Farsby”?

        • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

          Followup….

          It’s also a damn shame that the people doing this ‘movie’ that will ( perhaps in record time ) just up there in that cardboard bin of $2 dollar DVDs near the Wal-Mart cash registers either felt the need and/or were FORCED to ‘change the name’ of the OTHER group of Type 1 Hotshots who were THERE in Yarnell that historic day.

          Brian Frisby’s ACCIDENTAL ‘saving’ of Brendan McDonough was one of the ONLY ‘good’ things that happened that day… and now the movie-going public will forever not even know his name or the ACTUAL name of the Type 1 IHC organization that he ran.

          If the ‘movie’ people really WANTED to use ‘real names’ here ( as they are doing with everyone and everything associated with the Granite Mountain organization )… but were FORCED to ‘change all the names’ by the US Forestry Service… then you have to wonder if Brian Frisby and Trueheart Brown ever had anything to say about it.

          Could it be that Frisby and Brown were just told to continue to “Shut The Fuck Up” and just “go along” with US Forestry decisions… as has been the case all along with them ( and the rest of the ‘Blue Ridge Hotshots’ )?

          Trueheart Brown left the ‘Blue Ridge Hotshots’ organization some time ago… but he is still a USFS employee working on another US Forest facility in Arizona.

          I just wonder how Brian Frisby is going to ( ultimately ) feel about everyone who sees the movie just believing that someone with some name like “Bernie Farsby” with the “Blue RIVER Hotshots” is the one who actually saved Brendan McDonough’s life that day?

          Or maybe it’s the other way around.

          Maybe Frisby and Brown ( and ALL the other Blue Ridge Hotshots ) are still so ‘afraid’ of being generally known as having anything to do with this National Historic Tragedy that THEY are the ones who refused to allow their ‘names’ to be used in the film?

          Dunno. All I know is… there is a ‘story’ there about this ‘choice’ alone that needs to come out sooner or later.

          • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

            Whoops. TYPO up above.

            I MEANT to say…

            It’s also a damn shame that the people doing this ‘movie’ that will ( perhaps in record time ) just END UP there in that cardboard bin of $2 dollar DVDs near the Wal-Mart cash registers either felt the need and/or were FORCED to ‘change the name’ of the OTHER group of Type 1 Hotshots who were THERE in Yarnell that historic day.

    • Charlie says

      What I don’t understand is why Amanda, Willis, Dudley, and a bunch of their cronies are not the real actors. They have done such a good job in their acting and changing the truth that I know I am certain they could challenge the best among the actors mentioned.

  29. Bob Powers says

    Bringing this to the top for Joy

    According to what the Doctors told my Nephew and his Wife they cant start any CF treatment until a child is 12. Don’t know why.
    The treatment is also $25,000 a week for 6 months. Medicaid won’t cover it so its one of those only the rich cures. The cancer changed the whole game the Dr. said. She is at the children’s Hospital in San Francisco which is a top rated place. This new Doctor is pulling some strings to get to some new treatments once she is past the Cancer treatment Chemo and all another 3 months.

    She has a long ways to go. A 7 year old sits there in bed and tells her mom and dad and Grandma that she knows she is safe because she has Guarding Angels that are with her all the time and talk to her. Maybe so?????????????????????

    .

    • joy a collura says

      Just woke up. I have to get up at 2:15 but quickly answer you. Actually what she sees is real… I know certain loved ones have not liked some areas I have seen but Grant confirmed what I too have witnessed is real even Sinclair…there is much realness to what she sees…it’s because our purity can see beyond…if I saw her I would share to her about a little girl and her family I got to know before she was shown the world and became a famous child prodigy..have her look up Akiane and highly recommend her book to her and not only was her family athiest non believers when Akiane saw things like your niece can and Me too and Akiane painted what she saw…the other day I spent time with RTS and he did not even catch things only he knows and not the world but yes I too have these areas foreign to me but real…have her ask Him if he has any gifts she can share about her angels.. May it be by voice or art or poetry but take a shot and if nothing do not be discouraged because in its moment it happens and every moment the place poison in her…move move move even if bed bound…and more water…and hold steady to the Word she is hearing from her angels…its real…and when people look at ya in oh how cute…its actually not always so cute and unicorn life-like…I was told long ago let my body just rest but walk always but I put on hold my adrenaline junkie ways and weight poured on me and it was just recently I was told in eighteen months I will be thin again and do not take the meds and listen to what they plan to do for surgery and we will decide from that point if I do or not…I think I’m ready with all the pressurized pain month after month but was told hold on…it will be fine…
      Back to sleep but sounds great where she is at…good to hear..zzz

  30. Joy A. Collura says

    RTS-

    on topic of sharing your Faith-

    everyone has a right to be who they are but in a very undisciplined unstructured really cultured world; it would be nice for the healthy-minded to do less talking and judging and more quiet guidance and prayers for others having the disconnect to Him vs saying it to them—-now with that being said on Sunday January 4th 2015 I was up in Yarnell doing defensible space when my phone alerted me my perimeter cameras at home went off and I was like YCSO??? why YCSO? I call YCSO and they said they stopped by to serve me papers (Marsh case) so I was like if they are in no hurry can I finish up what I am doing than meet them at my home after 3pm…I then set up all my cameras to video this moment of being served and as I was doing that in crunch time I got a what you call WRONG NUMBER call- the old man said is so and so there & I told him wrong number but I STOPPED everything I was doing not because I wanted to do that but God guides me and I turned my pc on and looked up the name—I then went and called around to folks I know and said the almost 100 year old man was put into a nursing home after his wife died and then I called nursing home and the lady said that man has on paper NO VISITORS or INCOMING INFORMATION and I asked her if she would just slip that man’s name and I will call back in a few hours because I was awaiting my company (YCSO was the company) and a few hours later she said YES THE MAN LIT UP WHEN SHE MENTIONED HIS NAME…I called the old man back and told him update where his pal was and he was delighted- they were old friends and good pals/war buddies and he thought he was killed in war and he dreamnt he was alive and called last known number someone gave him and he asked my why I did all that for him and I told him it was the right thing to do and he said he was 97 y.o. and would never knew how to do all that- next day I got call from the woman of the husband that called me and thanked me alot for taking the time for her husband. It meant the world to them and if there was any money or gift they can offer and I said no, that was God not me. I explained to her at the moment he called I was tied up with deep uncertainty & anxiety that a woman felt so deep to consider me a threat in any fashion that I was being served for an injunction against harassment & best I ever been is emotional/irrational at little moment times not alot or daily and I thought it was human if broken and not healthy minded to have those moments from me my entire life when up against a wall with certain folks of YCSO breathing down my ass and Chief Ben Palm sharing to someone that one of his own firefighters and one old one text me “the chief is trying to get you arrested” and it went on for months so it grew old and I made out of frustration a comment BUT NEVER thought it would publicly mar my perfect record— and 8 days later the couple re-called me and thanked me again for that very very special tear jerking deeply emotional time because by the time they arrived he died in his friends arms that afternoon. I told her sometimes in the fast pace world of ME mentalities we do not take the time to listen to Him or we all opt to pick our times and actions but it was good to know I brought two military brothers back together—the other guy his wife had died and he went into a deep trance the staff said until this friend came and he lit up like nothing they ever saw and I even had the staff call and thank me for giving them that special moment to see because he had been there for years as a stubborn locked up man but God heals at the times needed…so always think WRONG NUMBER could change a person’s life like recently I was making a call for Bill G on air tankers and I dialed wrong number and the person ends up being a person who is very much into keeping it simple…it was a much needed time for them too but in it I gave that WRONG NUMBER at first Bill G and a whole thing came out of that wrong number too- small tiny world…I occasionally have strange times like that…but in all that RTS…people are gonna share…but you told Gary that these folks did not do preaching and again its not what we heard first hand—and that was all I wrote—you came back with the “cheese and cracker” stuff and the G & D stuff…where did that come from because I did not talk about that and yet you directed it to me…because people say that does not mean a thing to me…than back to human factors I have seen THE TOP religious men say stuff like that and I thought if they are capable than anyone is because it a human choice to the situation at hand and HOW one deals with stress…you ever see yourself handle stress and you pat your back but another time you react so unlike yourself…it is called being human in a LAW RESTRICTED WORLD might get you in court or jail due to the broken systems all around us even the churches…I never SPOKE UP in my case to the judge asking for change of venue to be disrespectful it was just I never saw HOW a comment and Willis hearsay could lead to a mark on my record but not one empathetic moment from judge for the documented mess I saw for months—I mean countless hours of YCSO and stuff…it was an unfair moment to my life but I am at peace with it and glad nowadays Gary removed it off his site but like I said what good can come from THE BIG LIE posted right under their photo- It just came off like whoah…now for me to say that and I saw what I seen in that journey- wouldn’t I be one to cheer that kind of stuff on—nah because we all face grief and hard moments and life is what it is…and for that life goes on…now RTS have a great day 🙂 I answered ya..

    • Joy A. Collura says

      by the way that is the ninth time I hooked up old war buddies in my life time- three by wrong numbers—

    • Robert the Second says

      Joy, thanks for sharing all that you posted above. Definitely ‘a God thing’ is what I call those, and several times with you too.

      You posted: “you came back with the “cheese and cracker” stuff and the G & D stuff…where did that come from because I did not talk about that and yet you directed it to me…because people say that does not mean a thing to me.”

      It was to make a point about free speech and the hypocrisy of those people that are ‘offended’ by people talking about God or using Jesus’ name or whatever.

      Forgive me for being unclear when I posted that.

    • Joy A. Collura says

      someone I know grew up with a Roy Hall who then went on to be a NM Sheriff- wondered if it was the same

      • Gary Olson says

        I don’t think so, as far as I know, all of his adult life was spent with USFS and I think it was all on the Apache Sitgreaves National Forest out of Springerville AZ, but I might be wrong.

        • Joy A. Collura says

          ok. than I have met him by Greer- thought so— he has a bunch of kids— he was a nice man if same guy…

          • Joy A. Collura says

            seems weird for me..so if it is same guy than Roy – a good man and Willis a good man… I just do not get it…I think back to the start of this all and how Willis went out on a stadium and Hoorah people applauded and Donut went on a country singer’s stage and Hoorah people applauded and Roy has a decent article put out yet 19 men died—what is all the hoorah for????

            I’d be having my head down in such depth of sorrow
            I mean I did not even KNOW the men and I hang my head down shaking it trying to make sense of it all what I eye-witnessed 6-30-13…

            And from folks in that area called me the gal who craved 15 minutes of fame and it is not even a thought because “fame” does not sit well with me and not anything I want for “my” life…but I do so bad seek answers that seems so many rather close the door to me and judge me versus get I am the one who was on the same mountain as the 20 men and I am alive…so I want to learn all I can on those last hours…who were these men…and the people that day…and I doubt the movie is going to provide purity so all I can do is seek foias and public information yet in it I so bad wish one person had a break down and just came to this site and finally spoke—I mean why hasn’t the dispatchers wrote me back—that was months ago??? How long does a foia request have to be acknowledged?
            One day is my hope that I can learn the final hours…it’s very sad.

            • Gary Olson says

              Joy,

              I don’t believe anybody is saying that anybody in this situation is not a good man. They are men that made big mistakes and have so far been able and unwilling to admit it publicly.

              I don’t agree with WTKTT that “depraved indifference” or a “depraved heart” was involved in Eric Marsh’s, Jesse Steed’s or anyone else’s decision on June 30, 3013, either. I certainly think that both of them were good men as well.

              For any act in this situation to rise to the “depraved” level would have to mean;

              Depraved, morally corrupt; wicked.
              “a depraved indifference to human life”

              Because;

              “The State of Arizona doesn’t classify the crime of manslaughter as voluntary or involuntary. It’s either “manslaughter” or “negligent homicide.”

              Manslaughter in Arizona

              Arizona law defines manslaughter quite broadly, with many possible scenarios potentially giving rise to this charge. These include:

              1) Intentionally assisting another in committing suicide. In most states, including Arizona, assisted suicide is illegal, even if performed by medically trained and licensed professionals. In Arizona, assisting in a suicide, regardless of medical training, is considered manslaughter.

              2) Intentionally or knowingly killing a person after adequate provocation and in the heat of passion or during a sudden quarrel. This means that the crime was not premeditated, but is instead the result of “sudden quarrel or heat of passion.”

              3) Intentionally killing another person while being forced to do so due to the threat or use of immediate unlawful deadly force, which “a reasonable person in his situation would have been unable to resist,”; or

              4) Recklessly causing the death of another person.

              5) Causing the death of an unborn child by injuring the mother. There are several important exceptions to this, and protects those who performed authorized abortions, those who provided medical services on the mother or child and the mother of the unborn child.

              Negligent Homicide in Arizona

              Negligent homicide is very similar to manslaughter; however, manslaughter is a “recklessness” standard which requires a gross deviation from a standard of conduct verses a “negligence” standard involving a gross deviation from a standard of care.”

              And I think number 4, “Recklessly causing the death of another person.” clearly applies.

              So I think the argument would be about whether the actions of Marsh and Steed were “manslaughter” or “negligent homicide” because their actions were reckless and it would take a jury to decide if those actions were simply “reckless” or a “grossly deviant” form of negligent.

              If I speed through a school zone by going really, really fast just after school has let out for the day and take my eyes off the road to pick up one of my eight track cassettes that have fallen on the floorboards while trying to read a telephone number on my pager and kill children in a cross walk in Arizonaistan, I would be guilty of either manslaughter or negligent homicide.

              If I keep going after I hit those children and they die because I did not stop to render aid or call for help, I think I would have demonstrated “depraved indifference” and therefore be guilty of a higher charge, which would be a degree of murder and not manslaughter or negligent homicide.

              The first example doesn’t make me a “bad person” but the second example certainly does. It just makes me a very careless and reckless person who deserves to be punished according to the law in Arizonaistan..

              As far as striding out onto a football field to be applauded as some kind of hero instead of sitting at home staring at the walls in a semi catatonic state which is where I would have been under similar circumstances doesn’t make you a bad man either…it just makes you a man who is divorced from reality and in denial about what just happened and your role in the disaster. .

              • Gary Olson says

                Whoops “I don’t believe anybody is saying that anybody in this situation is not a good man. They are men that made big mistakes and have so far been UNable and unwilling to admit it publicly.

              • Joy A. Collura says

                Gary said- If I speed through a school zone by going really, really fast just after school has let out for the day and take my eyes off the road to pick up one of my eight track cassettes that have fallen on the floorboards

                MY REPLY- where were you in 1981? That’s exactly what happen to my step-brother in Brick, NJ but the man took off and my brother had severe brain damage and all he was doing was playing basketball after school—
                sucks that there is alot of humans that are not forthcoming even my father who took a life yet it always remained hidden-
                are they afraid of losing their lifestyles? what if being forthcoming is part of God’s plan too Gary—why was their death the only plan God had—what if He wanted everyone to share their accounts purely

                I agree about your last part on the field and the disconnect just too bad though because there is just too many who keep quiet to a day I eye witnessed— stinks — but life goes on— and it does 🙂

                • Gary Olson says

                  Well…that was a hypothetical. I don’t really have a pager anymore, the company I used for years went out of business. But I do still have an eight track player in my Jeep because I don’t want to buy the “White Album” again.

                  And I am going to have to correct myself. I think that anybody who is, or has been involved in the cover up of the Yarnell Hill Fire tragedy is a “BAD” person.

                    • Joy A. Collura says

                      I lived at 1123 Old Freehold Rd Toms River ( https://www.google.com/maps/@39.975108,-74.1987705,3a,75y,95.99h,90t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m4!1s-vCTswOJlm31QccE0M34Tw!2e0!7i13312!8i6656!4b1!6m1!1e1 )
                      in 1981.- an old farm home smack in the center of cookie cutter new homes around the time and other farm houses- I would ride my bike all the time to Point Pleasant beach using Hooper Avenue—thru Brick to 88E to the shore to play with the horseshoe crabs and surf—you could not ever get my out of there— I use to sew bikinis for women and that is how my beginnings began for air brushing women before photo shoots— Point Pleasant beach…some fun times. I was 9 years old…I lived MORE life from age 7-12 than I have in my 40’s-
                      were you there for military? or for global security? I was one branches go getter gal to get their balls in a bucket—they liked me because I did not charge and they did not like getting their golf balls…my brothers charged when they did it near our home…that was their fun money…they would tell me to skat so I went where I could for free—

                    • joy a collura says

                      Gary. No need to explain. I know exactly where and just so you know some of the folks died and one has dementia so soon you may be ok to talk about it.

                    • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

                      Reply to Joy A. Collura says
                      July 13, 2016 at 4:57 pm

                      >> Joy said…
                      >>
                      >> I was one branches go getter gal
                      >> to get their balls in a bucket—they
                      >> liked me because I did not charge
                      >> and they did not like getting their
                      >> golf balls…my brothers charged
                      >> when they did it near our home…
                      >> that was their fun money…they
                      >> would tell me to skat so I went
                      >> where I could for free—

                      Joy… somehow it comes as no surprise whatsoever that you have always been pretty good at getting people’s ( non-gender specific ) “balls in a bucket”.

              • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

                Reply to Gary Olson says post on
                July 13, 2016 at 3:39 pm

                >> Gary Olson said…
                >>
                >> I don’t agree with WTKTT that “depraved indifference”
                >> or a “depraved heart” was involved in Eric Marsh’s,
                >> Jesse Steed’s or anyone else’s decision on June
                >> 30, 3013, either. I certainly think that both of them
                >> were good men as well.

                Well… in pure LEGAL terms… applying the additional charge of “depraved indifference” to an act that has already taken a human life doesn’t mean ANYONE ( the court included ) is passing any judgement on the ‘moral character’ of the accused.

                It’s just a LEGAL term that can increase the severity of a ‘negligence’ charge by establishing that the accused SHOULD have KNOWN that their ‘actions’ might result in serious injury or death to others… but they went ahead and did it anyway.

                Thus ( for that moment and that incident, anyway )… a “depraved indifference” to the consequences of pursuing their own agenda.

                The example most often use in LEGAL circles is the “shooting at a car” scenario.

                Even if you THOUGHT you were only going to hit the tires or the trunk of a vehicle by ‘shooting at it’… if you end up shooting at the moving car ( with occupants ) anyway… and you kill someone in the car… then you are guilty ( among other things ) of “depraved indifference”.

                You KNEW there was a CHANCE that firing a gun at a car might kill an occupant… but you went ahead and ‘pursued your own agenda’ and you did it anyway.

                The ‘depravity’ part, in these cases, means that you were just enough messed up in the head to pursue your OWN ‘agenda’… no matter what the COST to others in your charge… and you were ‘indifferent’ to those COSTS of pursuing your OWN ‘agenda’.

                If Eric Marsh and/or Jesse Steed has survived… there SHOULD have been ‘criminal’ charges. No question.

                And the resulting trial(s) would have been historic in nature, given that people tend to think that ALL ‘fireman’ are, somehow, automatically ‘heroes’ just because they pass a few tests and get put ON, or in CHARGE of, fire crews.

                The ‘trial’ would have shown that it doesn’t matter WHO you THINK you are… you still aren’t allowed to KILL people you are in charge of because of your own agenda(s).

                The lawyers for Marsh and/or Steed would have basically had to try and PROVE that neither one of them really thought there was anything even remotely dangerous about ordering the people in their charge to drop into a blind box canyon full of explosive, unburned fuel within a half mile of a raging, wind-driven wildfire at the height of the burn cycle.

                In other words… it would have become the “Bad decisions with good outcomes” defense.

                Or… ( for lack of a better term )… the “Ranger Danger” defense.

                The lawyers would have had to make some kind of argument along the lines of “They made these kinds of risky decisions ALL THE TIME and nothing bad had ever happened… so my clients had no reason to believe the same sort of decisions on THAT day would lead to a bad outcome”.

                *OR*… the lawyers might have had to argue to the jury that Marsh and/or Steed were simply so untrained in their own profession that they could not possibly have been expected to KNOW they were ordering the people in their charge into a ‘life threatening’ situation.

                Brendan McDonough himself has already ‘floated’ that particular ‘defense’ in one of his own public radio interviews while he’s been out SELLING his ‘book’.

                Here is a transcript of his KTAR radio interview…

                http://ktar.com/player/?a=322233

                ———————————————————–
                +2:35
                Interviewer: Tell us a little bit about what Wildland Firefighters DO?

                Brendan McDonough: So… ya know… the… the MAIN objective for US is… is the SAME as structure firefighters. Save lives. That’s a… that’s a BIG thing we have because right now we’re facing the urban interface. A huge… ya know… a huge dilemma. With what we’ve seen in Alberta, Canada this summer is… ya know… we lost sixteen hundred homes and… ya know… thank god we haven’t lost anybody yet.

                +5:31
                As the day unfolded… the storm had come in and the weather had started to change, and then, ya know, the winds had started to shift, which changed the direction of the fire… and so… we started to have homes threatened to the north… and then it was the northeast… and then the homes were burning IN town… ya know… and that’s when I left my lookout spot… right before then. And so… as… ya know… this fire just kinda SHIFTED… throughout the day… it really.. ya know… had a lotta SURPRISES for us. And… and… even in structural… there’s certain things that happen that we just can’t seem to comprehend… and that’s when… ya know… my… my brothers… for their reasons and for what they believed in… decided to leave their position… to try and get back to Yarnell.

                +6:44
                Some of the things we were basing our judgement off… ya know… wasn’t… wasn’t correct. And… for that… for that to be said… it’s… it’s humans. We… we… we make errors. So… we really struggle with… ya know… why… why did this happen. Something had to have gone wrong. Someone had to have made a mistake. And it’s not as much as someone made a mistake… it’s… it’s someone made a DECISION based on the information they had… and sometimes the information we have just isn’t enough… or it… or it’s not close enough to the timeframes and things like that. And we… we couldn’t expect it to burn as fast as it did… so… we… you know… we’re faced to be put in certain situations that we… in the beginning, you sign up for.

                ————————————————————

                Brendan said…

                “…it really.. ya know… had a lotta SUPRISES for us.”
                “…we couldn’t expect it to burn as fast as it did.”

                So if Steed and/or Marsh had lived… and their lawyers had to bust their asses to DEFEND their decision making that day… Brendan might have been called to the stand to say EXACTLY what he already said publicly while out SELLING his ‘book’.

                That they all called themselves ‘Wildland Firefighters’… but that they couldn’t possibly have been EXPECTED to fully understand what can happen when thunderstorm outflow winds hit a Wildland fireline.

                And the ‘jurors’ might have actually nodded their heads and BELIEVED that bullshit.

                Unbelievable.

                • Gary Olson says

                  Well…I am not used to the term “depraved” used in a legal setting, since I am more familiar with the federal definition of manslaughter that uses the word “malice”

                  18 U.S. Code § 1112 – Manslaughter

                  (a) Manslaughter is the unlawful killing of a human being without malice. It is of two kinds:

                  Voluntary—Upon a sudden quarrel or heat of passion.

                  Involuntary—In the commission of an unlawful act not amounting to a felony, or in the commission in an unlawful manner, or without due caution and circumspection, of a lawful act which might produce death.

                  Malice – 1. A desire to harm others or to see others suffer; extreme ill will or spite.

                  2. Law
                  a. The intent to commit an unlawful act without justification or excuse.
                  b. An improper motive for an action, such as desire to cause injury to another.

                  And since it wasn’t in a sudden quarrel or heat of passion, I think if it were a federal charge (which it would never be unless it were a federal fire) the charge should be “involuntary manslaughter.”

                  But since it would be an Arizona state charge and if both you and I were on the jury, I would vote for “manslaughter” right off the bat, but you probably could convince me to change my vote for the more serious charge of “negligent homicide” because what Marsh and Steed did unbelievably stupid even though what Steed did was understandable to me, not excusable…understandable.

                  So…I think our disagreement over the use of the word “depraved” is a moot point since in this situation it would be an Arizona statute and even if it would have been a federal fire, they would then use the federal statute. You must live in a state that uses “depraved”, which will make it easier to figure out who you are.

                  • Gary Olson says

                    And one of my goals of participating in this thread has been to make wildland firefighters aware that the world is changing.

                    Even as of TODAY, they can PROBABLY count on the following happening.

                    1. No investigating agency, either federal or state, especially state, will recommend any charges against them.

                    2. No prosecutor will bring any charges against them even if an investigating agency does recommend charges being filed.

                    3. No judge is going to deny a directed verdict to dismiss the charges even if a investigating and prosecuting agency brings the charges.

                    4. No jury is going to convict even if an investigating agency, prosecutor and judge brings the charges and lets it go to a jury.

                    BUT…the key words there are PROBABLY and TODAY. Probably is not good enough for me and even though that is the way it probably is today, it may not be that way tomorrow, so why break all of the rules and do something so stupid nobody can understand why on earth you did it and save yourself the trouble of both killing those under your supervision AND worrying about going to prison after you have spent everything you have or ever will have on a shit bag attorney (and fines) to try and keep you out of prison.

                    Oh…and one more thing. Buy professional liability insurance. I carried one million dollars (1,000,000) of liability insurance the entire time I worked in law enforcement that I paid for myself. It was only about $350.00 a year and it is tax deductible.

                • Charlie says

                  WTKTT is right on–unbelievable that Marsh and Steed would risk and cause the deaths of seventeen lives yet they did for a fact do that. Unbelievable that people are gullible enough to go along with those that would cover the facts by their so called expert opinions and redactions–especially considering that safety of future wild land fire fighters is at stake.

  31. Gary Olson says

    Well…here is a first for IM…I think. Thanks to the Yahoo home page I just diagnosed myself with a non curable fatal illness that is going to greatly decrease my life expectancy that is almost always found in smokers…COPD. Fuck me…what next? A brain tumor and now this!

    I started comparing why I said I couldn’t go on the long steep hike to the Granite Mountain Hotshot Park with the symptoms of COPD and guess what? I’m sure I have it. A medication that can relieve the symptoms of COPD was advertising on Yahoo and everything lines up. Nintey per cent of the deaths from COPD come from developing countries. Gee…I feel like I won the lottery…except in reverse.

    Chronic obstructive pulmonary disease (COPD) is a type of obstructive lung disease characterized by long term poor airflow. The main symptoms include shortness of breath and cough with sputum production. COPD typically worsens over time.[1] Eventually walking up stairs or carrying things will be difficult.[2] Chronic bronchitis and emphysema are older terms used for different types of COPD.[2][3] The term “chronic bronchitis” is still used to define a productive cough that is present for at least three months each year for two years.[4]

    Tobacco smoking is the most common cause of COPD, with a number of other factors such as air pollution and genetics playing a smaller role.[5] In the developing world, one of the common sources of air pollution is poorly vented heating and cooking fires.[2] Long-term exposure to these irritants causes an inflammatory response in the lungs resulting in narrowing of the small airways and breakdown of lung tissue.[6] The diagnosis is based on poor airflow as measured by lung function tests.[7] In contrast to asthma, the airflow reduction does not improve much with the use of a bronchodilator.[2]

    And for wildland firefighters out there…heads up.

    Occupational exposures

    Intense and prolonged exposure to workplace dusts, chemicals and fumes increase the risk of COPD in both smokers and nonsmokers.[36] Workplace exposures are believed to be the cause in 10–20% of cases.[37] In the United States they are believed to be related to more than 30% of cases among those who have never smoked and probably represent a greater risk in countries without sufficient regulations.[1]

    A number of industries and sources have been implicated, including[8] high levels of dust in coal mining, gold mining, and the cotton textile industry, occupations involving cadmium and isocyanates, and fumes from welding.[36] Working in agriculture is also a risk.[8] In some professions the risks have been estimated as equivalent to that of one half to two packs of cigarettes a day.[38] Silica dust exposure can also lead to COPD, with the risk unrelated to that for silicosis.[39] The negative effects of dust exposure and cigarette smoke exposure appear to be additive or possibly more than additive.[38]

    • Gary Olson says

      Unless I can get a lung transplant, but they say that is usually a long shot. Does anybody out there have some good lungs you don’t need anymore?

      • Gary Olson says

        Well…this is locking the barn door after all of the fuckin’ horse have been stolen.

        Prevention – Most cases of COPD are potentially preventable through decreasing exposure to smoke and improving air quality.

        Good tip…thanks.

        • Joy A. Collura says

          I never smoked and I hear by publicly offer to see if my lung is suitable for you. It use to be a well conditioned properly excersized lung until my losses in 9/11 than my life locked in a trap and the best I do for my lungs now is at ease or steep walks and hikes… But if serious let’s talk…I never thought to donate a body part dead or alive..yet let’s discuss private how serious or if its another rhetorical situation

          • Joy A. Collura says

            also note the devil is real Gary

            I can in person tell you how tight he is in creating chaos and division-

            did anyone think about him on 6-30-13?

            no…it was God that had that plan some say…

            I disagree.

            I feel there is man made errors and this town and its surrounding communities view a person like me who is doing NO different than a media outlet when asking for foias…you never see me discuss my results recently as I get them—I learn from it and go on but it helps bring clarity to the fire for me…areas I need clarity—now if I saw an area that needed to be public I would either ALERT you all here or tell you to go get a commercial purpose foia on such and such topic…but in no way am I gonna tie myself into the crony system based on the non-commercial definition played within the state of Arizona…this state has now proven to me how the law means something for me but not them…then one wonders HOW the people are fighting and killing cops but then certain cops can kill a man November 2013 someone near and dear to knowing someone on this fire and yet they did no wrong..accountability/etc. just some 44 y.o. man depressed who needed to be shot ??? It is a truly SCREWED UP system. If I could I would move as far away from the state I fell in love and was born and raised in…A R I Z O N A. The people running the shows really have disappointed me and if I knew of a place where I could live off the land legally and away from civilization I would…My grandpa told me of a neat spot in Hawaii he spent time with Shirley Temple and maybe some day I will do that area-

            • Joy A. Collura says

              alot of locals are talking about police shooting even Josh Brolin so let’s look at local footage of a fatal killing—

              https://youtu.be/FG0160ulYfg

              these are the ones I “know of”—

              It is another area that needs a serious LOOKIE LOO at

              is it that the system is broken or the people are or both-

              Fatal shootings by law enforcement in Yavapai County since 2000:

              June 10, 2001, Cottonwood: Gary Michael Gamblin, 30, shot by YCSO Deputy Victor Dartt. Deputies responded to a report of a family fight in the 2500 block of Mountain View. While deputies were trying to take Gamblin into custody, he resisted. Both Dartt and Gamblin were shot. Gamblin died at the scene.

              April 19, 2002, Prescott: Shannon Allen, 30, shot by Prescott Police Sgt. Ken Morley. Members of the Partners Against Narcotics Trafficking task force were conducting a warrant search on a home in the 800 block of Division Street when Allen, who was in bed, grabbed a gun and pointed it at Morley, who shot him.

              May 14, 2002, Prescott Valley: Richard Behner, 48, shot by Prescott Valley Police Officer Bill Burns. Behner was being sought for violation of a court order when officers confronted him in a parking lot in the 2400 block of Great Western Drive. He pulled a .357 semi-automatic handgun out of the car, fired it at officers, and Burns shot him.

              Oct. 18, 2003, Black Canyon City: John Lichtenwalter, 73, shot by three YCSO deputies: Ben Lenett, Frank Alvarez, and Ryan Goodell. They went to Lichtenwalter’s home because he had called a Texas healthcare provider threatening suicide. Lichtenwalter had a handgun and the three deputies ordered him to put it down. Instead, he pointed it at them, and the deputies fired.

              Jan. 8, 2004, Seligman: Uve Reesh, 46, shot by YCSO Deputy Steve Polanchak. Reesh was believed to have run over and killed a man, and then dumped the body. As deputies were putting up crime scene tape at a location on Stagecoach Road, Reesh drove up and tried to run down a deputy. Polanchak fired at the car, killing Reesh.

              July 31, 2004, Prescott Valley: Martin Andrews, 25, shot by Prescott Valley Police Officers Mark Postula and Jake Jackson. Officers responded to a West Sauter Drive address for a report of shots fired. The two officers encountered Andrews in a garage, he pointed a .223 caliber rifle at them, and they returned fire.

              Feb. 28, 2006, Wilhoit: Chad Chlebowski, 30, shot by YCSO Deputy Chris Krogedal.

              Deputies responded to a home in the 8800 block of South Donald Trail for a report of domestic violence. Chlebowski confronted them with a gun and Krogeldal shot him.

              June 3, 2006: Spring Valley: Daniel R. Price, 44, shot by YCSO deputy Shane Weber.

              Price’s brother called 911 to report the Price was threatening him. When Weber responded to the home in the 17000 block of Lake View Court, Price confronted him with a gun and a small explosive and Weber fired.

              Feb. 4, 2009, Chino Valley: Charles Eddlemon, 26, shot by CVPD Officer Brian Eckenboy. Eddlemon was driving “erratically,” police said, and, after crashing his car in the 1900 block of Yellow Brick Road, became aggressive and charged Eckenboy, who fired multiple rounds.

              April 1, 2009, Black Canyon City: An unidentified man shot by YCSO Deputies Ted Direen and William Suttle. The man was the subject of a pre-arranged drug buy at a gas station. When the deputies identified themselves, the man drove his car at them, and the deputies fired at him. The car continued a quarter-mile and crashed, at which point, deputies determined that the man had been fatally shot.

              Feb. 25, 2010, Ash Fork: Andy Hammond, 43, shot by YCSO Deputy Christopher Clouse. Clouse answered a call for a man who pulled a gun at a business and stole a truck. Clouse caught up to Hammond at a gas station, where Hammond, wearing a bullet-proof vest, drew a gun. Clouse fired a single shot.

              April 17, 2010, Prescott Valley: Donald Smith, 54, shot by Prescott Valley Police Officers Jake Jackson and Tyrane Payne. Police were called to Smith’s home in the 5200 block of Stetson Drive for a report of a physical domestic violence incident. Smith confronted officers with a knife. A TASER was used, but was ineffective, and Jackson and Payne shot him.

              April 2, 2011, Cottonwood: Betty Shanafelt, 62, shot by Cottonwood Police Officer Steve Phoenix. Shanafelt was reportedly suicidal and told four officers to kill her; they tried a TASER twice without success. When Shanafelt drew a gun on Phoenix, he fired three times with a rifle.

              Sept. 4, 2011, Yarnell: Tammy Mack, 51, shot by YCSO Deputy Ron Williams. A caller to 911 reported that Mack was attacking her husband with a shovel. Williams confronted her inside the home and she attempted to stab him with a knife. Williams fatally shot Mack.

              April 11, 2013, Cottonwood: Kodie Victor, 67, shot by Cottonwood Police Officer Scott Dever. Police responded to the 1300 block of East Gila Street for a report of a suicidal man with a handgun. While they talked to Victor, he pointed his gun at Dever, who fired.

              Nov. 20, 2013, Prescott: Larry Clay, 44, shot by Prescott Police Officer Jared Willis. Clay, reportedly suicidal, confronted Willis with two large kitchen knives outside his home in the 4400 block of Hornet Drive. When Clay refused orders to drop them and charged Willis, the officer fired three times.
              (NOTE- this retired fire chief Willis’s son who was a part of a fatal shooting)

              Oct. 17, 2014, Dewey: Harvey Mullenax, 31, shot by YCSO Deputy Jason Morgan. Mullenax, a possible suspect in a vehicle theft, was contacted by Morgan as he walked across Highway 169. Mullenax attacked Morgan, using his patrol car to run him down, before Morgan was able to draw his gun and fire.

              Dec. 18, 2014, Dewey: Daniel Gray, 51, shot by YCSO Deputy Justin White. Gray was in his home in the 1200 block of Oxbow Drive when two deputies, called by a former girlfriend who said Gray was suicidal, arrived. Gray had a gun, and pointed it at White, who shot him five times.

              March 21, 2015, Cottonwood: Enoch Gaver, 21, shot by Cottonwood Police Officer Richard Hicks. Gaver was involved in a melee in a Walmart parking lot in which eight officers fought with nine members of the same family. Gaver reportedly wrestled a gun away from another officer before Hicks shot him.

              May 30, 2015, Cottonwood: Ebin L. Proctor, 18, shot by YCSO Deputy Steven Gorman. Proctor ran from a traffic stop in the Verde Village, was cornered, and a TASER and pepper spray were “ineffective” in subduing him, a spokesman said, after which Proctor attacked Gorman, who shot him.

              Sept. 2, 2015, Williamson Valley: Arthur Bates, 45, shot by YCSO Deputy Ethan Stover. Bates was walking around the outside of his home in the 4300 block of Marlow Drive, firing a gun, seemingly at random targets. When several deputies surrounded him, ordering him to drop the weapon, he refused, saying he wanted to commit suicide. Bates pointed the gun at Stover, and Stover fired one shot.

              Sept. 25, 2015, Wilhoit: Jeffrey Blood, 45, shot by YCSO Deputies Dakota Brinkley and Brandon Warren and State Trooper Christopher Wilson. Blood was at a party at his home in the 9200 block of South Steven Trail, where he was reportedly shooting in the back yard. The three officers ordered him to drop the gun. When he threatened them, they shot him.

              We should really take a step back and think about it,
              My dad killed someone and because he was an officer they made sure PR worked its magic and praised and awarded him for saving a life and got him where he had lung surgery of all things and no jail time or held repsonsible (your today topic; lungs) as he had lung cancer…I knew then there was a “devil” Gary and I knew then how the system works…just sucks is all…I wish I never seen it…but it is what it is…

              I can’t be much of a voice if a man of credentials like him can’t get anywhere than who am I—

              http://www.examiner.com/article/cronyism-nepotism-and-favoritism-a-small-town-courthouse

          • Gary Olson says

            Thank you Joy, you really are a sweetheart. And I was just joking. I do wheeze everywhere I go, continually gulp for air in the middle of conversations, and it feels like my lungs are heavy like something is pressing on them when I walk very far, but I don’t want to live that long anyway.

            I was just shocked to learn I have a non-curable terminal illness because of smoke inhalation. I think I need to write more about that on this thread. I have known for decades I have a problem in addition to the permanent damage done to my larnyx with the growths and lesions on it, I just didn’t know it has a name or how serious it can be.

            I also think young firefighters should be made aware that this condition is potentially something they could be faced with, although clearly it affects some a lot more than others.

            There is no question in my mind Fred breathed a lot more smoke than I did and there must not be anything wrong with him. At least nothing that a good psychiatrist might not be able to help him with.

            I don’t really know if anybody in the wildland firefighting community has ever put 2+2 together and added it up to 4. Breathing nasty shit in smoke for long periods of time is bad for you.

            My assistant crew boss breathed every thing I ever breathed for 10 years and he did it one year before me and one year after me and he’s OK (more or less). But I just found out it what is wrong with me….has a name, COPD.

            And frankly, I would like to sharpen that stick up and shove it up the Granite Mountain Hotshot Committee’s ass and break it off with the help of the ACLU because I am now handicapped and I can’t visit their fucking park…dirty BASTARDS!

            • Robert the Second says

              Gary,

              You posted July 10, 2016: “There is no question in my mind Fred breathed a lot more smoke than I did and there must not be anything wrong with him. At least nothing that a good psychiatrist might not be able to help him with.”

              HaHa, aren’t you the funny one. I think you’re the one – AT TIMES – that needs the ‘good psychiatrist.’

              Psychiatrists are those folks that couldn’t quite make it in school as a psychologist, so they instead chose for the psychiatrist option.

              Psychiatrists don’t really ‘help’ anyone. They give their patients drugs, lots of drugs, and more drugs.

              Dr. Peter Breggin was one of the first to write about the dangers of psychiatry and drugs and has written about these same dangers for many years. phttp://www.breggin.com/

              And yes, I know there are others that claim otherwise.

              • Gary Olson says

                OK, OK, OK, Fred, just another bad joke to see if I could get a rise out of you. I figure you miss the good ole days when you worked everyday with world class ball busters and I am just thinking of you and trying to make your retirement just a little bit better. Your welcome.

                It sound like you and Tom Cruise might have more in common than just good looks.

                https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tFgF1JPNR5E

                I know how busy you are, so it starts at about 8:45.

                • Bob Powers says

                  Gary
                  just to add I smoked till I was 40 started at 16.

                  Ate smoke all those years the worst I have is Harding of the Arteries. No Lung Problems at all. Lots of Joint Problems from the onset of Authorities. Blood pressure and Ulcers. Stuff you just live with.

                  I am sorry to hear about your condition.

                  You retire then things start going to Shit.

                  I have a Grand Niece my Nephews Daughter 7 Years old
                  she has been fighting Cystic Fibroses for 5 years and has lost one lung and has only 60% of another. Then last year she got bone cancer they have to remove her shoulder the 12th to remove the Cancer. with her lung as is she may not survive the operation.

                  Just saying we all face uncertain times—- live and enjoy each day and look to tomorrow.

                  Take care Gary.

                  I always say I had a hell of a ride with no regrets that’s a Good Life.

                  • Gary Olson says

                    Thank you Bob, my story is not a sad one, it is a happy one, you have seen and done many of the things I have, wildland firefighting really is a noble profession with some awesome sights.

                    Now this,

                    I have a Grand Niece my Nephews Daughter 7 Years old she has been fighting Cystic Fibroses for 5 years and has lost one lung and has only 60% of another. Then last year she got bone cancer they have to remove her shoulder the 12th to remove the Cancer. with her lung as is she may not survive the operation.”

                    This is a sad story, the likes of which tear my heart out.

                    • Bob Powers says

                      Gary
                      Little Caylee made it through the operation and they believe they Got the Cancer.
                      Her CF has been a great challenge and they are hopeful the Chemo may assist in healing the lungs they have never had a child with Both affliction’s so this is a new thing to them.
                      Her age has been a problem for the treatment until she got Cancer.

                      We have, all in my Family shed a lot of tears but She is a tough little 7 year old.
                      She would put many of us big bad guys to shame the way she faces each day.

                      So the day so far has been good to Caylee and her Family. She has been given a longer stay here with all of us.

                    • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

                      Reply to Bob Powers post on
                      July 12, 2016 at 8:49 pm

                      >> Bob Powers said…
                      >>
                      >> Little Caylee made it through the
                      >> operation and they believe they
                      >> Got the Cancer.

                      That’s wonderful news, Bob.

                    • Gary Olson says

                      Well…I guess that is a silver lining to an otherwise horrific story…situations like this are what make me question just what the Great Creator is thinking.

                    • Joy A. Collura says

                      MY REPLIES IN CAPS BELOW-

                      Bob Powers says
                      JULY 12, 2016 AT 8:49 PM

                      Gary
                      Little Caylee made it through the operation and they believe they Got the Cancer. WONDERFUL NEWS- NOW IT IS TIME TO REST, EXERCISE AND STRETCH AND GET THE POISONS OUT AND GET TO LIVING…AND DRINK MORE WATER 🙂 AND ENJOY HER FAMILY AND FRIENDS!

                      Her CF has been a great challenge I AM GENETICALLY A CARRIER OF THAT DISEASE- CYSTIC FIBROSIS AND SO SORRY TO HEAR KIDS FACING IT—I DO NOT HAVE CHILDREN DUE TO MY GENETIC MAKEUP BUT I AM RELIEVED IN A WAY—

                      and they are hopeful the Chemo may assist in healing the lungs they have never had a child with Both affliction’s so this is a new thing to them. WELL, I HAVE HAD A LONG ASS JOURNEY WITH MY BS AND ON TOPIC I STAY FAR FROM THE POISONS AND IF I PULL THROUGH IT WILL BE POISON FREE BUT SURE HATE TO HEAR AND GO AND VOLUNTEER IN KIDS HOSPITAL AREAS TO SEE THEM FACING THIS…KIDS ARE BETTER TO BOUNCE BACK THAN ADULTS I RECKON BUT STILL SUCKS!

                      Her age has been a problem for the treatment until she got Cancer. REALLY? HER AGE…HOW COME…

                      We have, all in my Family shed a lot of tears but She is a tough little 7 year old.MY FAVORITE AGE IN LIFE— YOU CAN DO ALOT AT SEVEN

                      She would put many of us big bad guys to shame the way she faces each day.WELL WHAT THE HECK ELSE CAN SHE DO—YOU LEARN YOU GOT ONE THING THAN ANOTHER AND THEN YOU TEST YOUR GENETICS AND LEARN ALOT IS THERE BUT SOME EARLY AGE ENVIRONMENT SO WHERE LOOK AT AREAS SHE RESIDED IN—IT’S A BREAK DOWN PROCESS BUT IN ADULTS IT IS MAINLY STRESS BUT KIDS ARE DIFFERENT—

                      So the day so far has been good to Caylee and her Family. She has been given a longer stay here with all of us.WAY COOL—LET CAYLEE KNOW I KNOW SHE CAN DO THIS—ROCK ON GIRL!

                • Robert the Second says

                  Gary, thanks for sharing the YouTube link. Cruise does an excellent job arguing his points opposing psychiatry and their use of. psychotropic drugs. The Scientologists, of which he is one, have also done a very good job exposing the dangers of Psychiatry and Psychotropic drugs.

                  In 1969 Scientologists established the Citizens Commission on Human Rights (CCHR), a watchdog group that investigates and exposes psychiatric violations of human rights.

                  I believe that Scientology is one of many false religions. So, in no way am I endorsing or approving Scientology, only that they for many years now, have aggressively researched and revealed the dangers of Psychiatry and Psychotropic drugs.

                  Even though I may be philosophically or otherwise opposed to someone or their beliefs, if they make a good, cogent argument or case for or against something, then I will accept it.

                  They even offer a free DVD titled: ‘Psychiatry, An Industry of Death.’ Check it out, it’s FREE.

                  • Robert the Second says

                    WTKTT,

                    You posted on July 17, 2016 at 1:31 PM: “One of my own ( personal ) criteria for ‘sound doctrine’ happens to include a requirement that it doesn’t fucking contradict itself ever 4 ‘paragraphs’ or ‘chapters’ or ‘verses’ and require scholars working for over a thousand years to try and figure out what it all means.”

                    Outstanding. Good for you.

                    Then you should know that Biblical ‘sound doctrine’ “doesn’t fucking contradict itself ever[y] 4 ‘paragraphs’ or ‘chapters’ or ‘verses’ and require scholars working for over a thousand years to try and figure out what it all means.”

                    The Bible is proven true everyday and certainly every time there is another archeological find.

                    You will choose to believe what you choose to believe as I will,and we will just have to continue to ‘agree to disagree.’

                    • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

                      Reply to Robert the Second ( RTS )
                      post on July 17, 2016 at 1:50 pm

                      >> RTS said…
                      >>
                      >> You will choose to believe what
                      >> you choose to believe as I will, and
                      >> we will just have to continue
                      >> to ‘agree to disagree.’

                      Yep.

                      And the next time some moron is allowed to be the official ‘spokesman’ for civil-service agencies at the first official ‘press conference’ following another National Tragedy and offers up ( as an official explanation ) that the ‘reason’ supposed professional firefighters all burned to death on the floor of blind box canyon full of explosive, unburned fuel, with no lookout, one-half mile from a raging wind-driven fireline at the height of the burn cycle is because…

                      “God had a different plan for those men.

                      …then I imagine we will have this discussion again.

                      At least YOU are not one of the ‘morons’ who can just ‘accept’ that as the ‘total explanation’… and you HAVE been doing your homework on this incident.

                      You actually DO have my (ongoing) ‘respect’ for that.

                      Carry on.

                  • Joy A. Collura says

                    back to our feature presentation:

                    wildfire folks who fight these fires/state/federal/government transparency.

                    a top priority.

                    The investigation to date has focused exclusively on the acquisition and review of public documents.

                    but wouldn’t it be great to be flies on the wall at certain places

                    just saying…

                    Extravagant spending and cozy relationships sets the stage for more serious issues

                    Wildfire Season is currently happening…any concerns this season to look at?

                    Uh, no Joy…move along… 🙂

                • Gary Olson says

                  Of course this is the video that made America aware that Tom Cruise is unhinged. He is intolerant of people who don’t think like he does, don’t worship like he does, don’t believe in the same things he believes in and don’t agree with him and his world view.

                  Do you know anybody like that? I do. I know several and one of them in named Darrell Willis and there are a lot of people just like him. People who think there should be religious tests in America to be Americans.

                  People who think it is OK to spread THEIR brand of religion at work and to people under their control and supervision…you know….bad people who the Founding Fathers would NOT approve of. People they might hang…because things were tougher and stricter back then…you know, in the good ole days. .

                  • Robert the Second says

                    Gary,

                    You asked if I knew any ‘intolerant people’ who don’t believe, think, or worship like Tom Cruise or others and then posted: “one of them [is] named Darrell Willis and there are a lot of people just like him. People who think there should be religious tests in America to be Americans.”

                    Really? Are you serious?

                    “People who think it is OK to spread THEIR brand of religion at work and to people under their control and supervision…you know….bad people who the Founding Fathers would NOT approve of. People they might hang…because things were tougher and stricter back then…you know, in the good ole days. .”

                    Here’s a pretty good paper titled “A Godless Constitution?: A Response to Kramnick and Moore by Daniel L. Dreisbach on the very issue of ‘Religious Tests’ in American during it’s formative years during the Constitutional framing.

                    http://www.leaderu.com/common/godlessconstitution.html

                    Neither Darrel Willis nor the GMHS forced any religion on anyone nor did they ‘.spread THEIR brand of religion at work and to people under their control and supervision.’

                    Where do all you guys come up with that? Many, if not most, of these GMHS men are/were Christians. Christianity is a RELATIONSHIP with Jesus Christ, it is NOT a religion or a ‘brand of religion.’

                    The ones who really ‘spread THEIR brand of religion at work and to people under their control and supervision’ are those that believe in and practice Secular Humanism, where Man and/or Government is/are God.

                    Check out the U.S. Supreme Cort ruling in the ‘Town of Greece (NY) vs. Galloway court case.

                    The case dealt with the LEGISLATIVE body of local Government.

                    https://www.oyez.org/cases/2013/12-696

                    “Though the respondents testified that they felt OFFENDED by these prayers, Justice Kennedy distinguished between OFFENSE and COERCION and noted that the former [OFFENSE] does NOT violate the Establishment Clause.”

                    In other words, there no legal recourse in being ‘offended.’ Myself and others are ‘offended’ by all kinds of stuff every single day and we just deal with it. We tolerate them, so they have to tolerate us. It goes both ways.

                    • Joy A. Collura says

                      rts said-Neither Darrel Willis nor the GMHS forced any religion on anyone nor did they ‘.spread THEIR brand of religion at work and to people under their control and supervision.’

                      MY REPLY- I met firefighters who have stated they learned about God from men on the GMHS crew-
                      that is facts. Let’s talk about the 5 firefighters that did defensible space on Sonny’s property- FACTS…Andrew Williams was friends with Deford and learned about God from him..FACTS! I could go on…

                    • Robert the Second says

                      Joy,

                      You posted on July 10, 2016: “MY REPLY- I met firefighters who have stated they learned about God from men on the GMHS crew-
                      that is facts. Let’s talk about the 5 firefighters that did defensible space on Sonny’s property- FACTS…Andrew Williams was friends with Deford and learned about God from him..FACTS! I could go on…”

                      Well, go on then.

                      The First Amendment Establishment Clause allows for Freedom OF Religion and NOT Freedom FROM Religion.

                      Those men were allowed to talk about anything they wanted to talk about.

                    • Joy A. Collura says

                      RTS

                      The point was made.

                      You said none had talked or persuaded or whatever the sentence was…just waking up later than usual and you said they did not yet Andrew William learned about God from Deford so yes there was that going on so you come back now with freedom of speech but any person who does not get what you say and specifically ask for your leadership quality to explain it you pass it over like you did me down below.. Its obvious your freedom of speech is much like my own father who was a Leo and born 8-21 so I would say its like corresponding with my father who says stuff and when I don’t comprehend he abandons my questions… I’m pegging you that way and moved on. Yo ur freedom of speech is selective and what audience you want…its OK…I have to get..taking sonny to hospital.. He was in er and now moving him tonphnx area to fix foreign body to eye…

                    • Robert the Second says

                      Joy,

                      So it’s okay to use God’s name in vain (GD this or that, Jesus f**king Christ, etc.) but it’s NOT okay to talk about God?

                      What law states that someone is not allowed to talk about God?

                      Do you consider talking about God to be the same as ‘forcing religion’ on someone or spreading ‘their brand of religion’?

                    • Gary Olson says

                      I would really like to know how you and so many others would feel if Darrell Willis, those who support him back then and now and all of the others that pushed and is some cases….even forced their brand Christianity on the Granite Mountain Hotshot crew would feel and what you would say…if he and the others were Muslim’s pushing that religion on others.

                      You don’t think that having a squad boss, crew boss or senior crewman say OK…everyone who wants to either pray in God’s name or hear about the Word Of God and Jesus Christ assemble over here and implied that everyone who doesn’t want to be accepted, have any friends or remain on the crew can go somewhere else…made any difference to how they exercised their “free will.”

                      Oh…and how about if the last words out of Jesse Steed’s mouth on the radio before he followed Eric Marsh’s order to descend into a brush choked death chute directly into the path of a fire storm of Biblical proportions was….Allahu Akbar! How would you and those who think like you do feel then.

                    • Gary Olson says

                      Oh…and one more thing. As I have said before, I am not a Mormon, but I have an affinity for those who are even though one of my great great uncles was one the most famous pioneer era Mormons (at least in Arizona and Utah) Jacob Hamblin.

                      There was at least one Mormon on the crew, even though he was a convert because he married one, so he may not have been targeted by Mormon haters as much as he would have been otherwise. Everybody can understand getting converted to a false religion if the girl of your dreams is one and that is a condition to get her to marry you.

                      And one of YOUR leaders…Franklin Graham has made his hatred of Mormons publicly known as so many of your leaders and people like Darrell Willis and those who think like him have.

                      Look closely at a Mormon and you will probably see someone who is sensitive to religious persecution and defensive of religions who are considered to be false religions by people like you. Which is just reason Donald Trump is going to lose the election in a historic landslide…threatening Senator Jeff Flake in HIS house…really?

                      After all, every Christian is a member of a break-a-way sect of the Catholic Church. That is all you are my friend…an outspoken and intelligent spokesperson of one particular minority Christian break-a-way SECT…nothing more.

                    • Joy A. Collura says

                      rts said: Do you consider talking about God to be the same as ‘forcing religion’ on someone or spreading ‘their brand of religion’?

                      MY REPLY: depends on source…you have to hear some locals here and I would say YEPPERS

                    • Robert the Second says

                      Gary,

                      No telling where this will appear.

                      You posted on July 12, 2016 at 6:55 PM: “You don’t think that having a squad boss, crew boss or senior crewman say OK…everyone who wants to either pray in God’s name or hear about the Word Of God and Jesus Christ assemble over here and implied that everyone who doesn’t want to be accepted, have any friends or remain on the crew can go somewhere else…made any difference to how they exercised their “free will.”

                      Why not? We all have the freedom of choice. I guess those that were weak and need to ‘belong’ or ‘go along to get along’ would give in to that and others would simply exercise their ‘free will’ and walk away.

                      You also posted: “Oh…and how about if the last words out of Jesse Steed’s mouth on the radio before he followed Eric Marsh’s order to descend into a brush choked death chute directly into the path of a fire storm of Biblical proportions was….Allahu Akbar!”

                      “How would you and those who think like you do feel then[?].”

                      These last 2 are Logical Fallacies, so I’m listing several that I think may apply here.

                      Argument from ignorance (appeal to ignorance, argumentum ad ignorantiam) – assuming that a claim is true because it has not been or cannot be proven false, or vice versa.

                      Argument from silence (argumentum ex silentio) – where the conclusion is based on the absence of evidence, rather than the existence of evidence.

                      Shifting the burden of proof (see – onus probandi) – I need not prove my claim, you must prove it is false.

                      Correlation proves causation (post hoc ergo propter hoc) – a faulty assumption that correlation between two variables implies that one causes the other.

                      Equivocation – the misleading use of a term with more than one meaning (by glossing over which meaning is intended at a particular time).

                      Red herring – a speaker attempts to distract an audience by deviating from the topic at hand by introducing a separate argument the speaker believes is easier to speak to.

                      Reification (concretism, hypostatization, or the fallacy of misplaced concreteness) – a fallacy of ambiguity, when an abstraction (abstract belief or hypothetical construct) is treated as if it were a concrete, real event or physical entity. In other words, it is the error of treating as a “real thing” something that is not a real thing, but merely an idea.

                      False analogy – an argument by analogy in which the analogy is poorly suited.

                    • Robert the Second says

                      Gary,

                      I have no idea where this post will end up either.

                      You posted: July 12, 2016 at 7:47 PM “And one of YOUR leaders…Franklin Graham has made his hatred of Mormons publicly known as so many of your leaders and people like Darrell Willis and those who think like him have.”

                      Franklin Graham’s alleged ‘hatred of Mormons’ is NOT with Mormons themselves, but with their False Religion. And no man is my leader, therefore, Franklin Graham is NOT one of my leaders. Jesus Christ is my leader.

                      You are generalizing and using more Logical Fallacies.

                      I have never heard Darrel Willis speak ill of the Mormons and so I think you are falsely accusing him with that statement.

                      You also posted: “Look closely at a Mormon and you will probably see someone who is sensitive to religious persecution and defensive of religions who are considered to be false religions by people like you. Which is just reason Donald Trump is going to lose the election in a historic landslide … threatening Senator Jeff Flake in HIS house…really?”

                      The Mormons are extremely devoted to their ‘religion’ and their alleged religious leaders and very family oriented. If they would only look into the Mormon Doctrine, they would realize how bizarre it is.

                      Yes, the Mormons are “sensitive to religious persecution and defensive of religions who are considered to be false religions.”

                      You are taking quite a leap down the slippery slope here. And completely jumping from one conclusion to another with this one: “Which is just [one] reason Donald Trump is going to lose the election in a historic landslide … threatening Senator Jeff Flake in HIS house…really?”

                      You may be right. Only time will tell.

                      You also posted: “After all, every Christian is a member of a break-a-way sect of the Catholic Church. That is all you are my friend…an outspoken and intelligent spokesperson of one particular minority Christian break-a-way SECT…nothing more.”

                      What you posted about Christians being members of a breakaway sect of the Catholic Church is partially true. And so, what is wrong with breaking away from something so blatantly false and corrupt?

                      The Catholic Church in its own Catholic Encyclopedia mentions time and again that Catholicism is “based on paganism.”

                      The remaining quotes are from the very comprehensive and informative link below.

                      “Incidentally, similar paths from “sect” to “world religion” took place among the Buddhists, Jainists, Sikhs, and Bahai faiths but none of these grew and spread with such vigor as the Christian faith, primarily because its message of a loving God forgiving, adopting, and cleansing sinful man apart from religious works of that sinful man was as revolutionary then as it is today.”

                      “The earliest Christian church was established by Jesus Christ and richly developed by His disciples and especially the Apostle Paul’s missionary journeys.”

                      “It began as a Jewish sect and its members were referred to as “Followers of The Way”. Which was based primarily on Jesus’ own words in John 14:6 “I AM the way the truth and the life, no man comes to the Father but by Me.’”

                      “In the book of Acts, the Bible reports that these “Followers” were called “Christians” for the first time in Antioch. It was a derisive term which meant “little Christs”. The name given in derision was a perfect fit for what true Christianity represented: being a smaller version i.e. representative or imitator of Christ, so the name was a hit among Christians and it stuck.”

                      http://www.truthforsaints.com/Christian_Denominations/Christian_Denominations.html

                    • Woodsman says

                      RTS,

                      It’s a doggone shame that not one of those argument types you have quoted apply to Gary’s question(s). Not even close, man. Including the latin was a nice touch though…made it sound so sophisticated. Keep trying, you may get one…eventually. Never give up! haha

                      You are at your most entertaining when you go the uber-quote high-brow ultra-sophistication route.

                      I know. I know. I can ESAD,,,,,,,

                      Woodsman

                    • Woodsman says

                      RTS,

                      You said:

                      “These last 2 are Logical Fallacies, so I’m listing several that I think may apply here.”

                      The term ‘logical fallacy’ makes no sense. I will explain it in your native tongue, it’s a contradictio in terminis. If something is logical then it’s of sound reasoning. If something is a fallacy than it’s not of sound reasoning. So ‘logical fallacy’ is similar to saying ‘same difference.’ (man, I hate that one)

                      Was your understanding of Gary’s statement a formal or informal fallacy? Start there. That should help you figure out what you believe is wrong with the argument and identify the proper fallacy if there is one. Throwing up a hodgepodge of possibilities just seems silly.

                      OK. I got this one: Go jump in a lake, Woodsman!!!

                      Woodsman

                    • Gary Olson says

                      RTS said, “And no man is my leader, therefore, Franklin Graham is NOT one of my leaders”

                      Sorry bout that…you people all look alike to me.

                    • Gary Olson says

                      OK Fred…I am going to admit it, trying to understand your argument makes my head hurt, I’m not saying it’s not one helluva good argument, I’m just saying it makes my head hurt to try and follow it.

                      So…I am going to try to keep this simple from my end. I think that saying what Willis said, which was the crew died because God had a different plan for those men, a statement that you have said you agree with…is no different in my mind to saying, “Allahu Akbar” which literally means “God is greater” or “God is the greatest.” but is used to mean, “In the name of God” or “God’s will.”

                      And of course it is also used as a battle cry when Islamic Terrorists are about to deliberately commit mass murder of non combatants as opposed to how we do it, with bombs delivered by war planes, attack helicopters and cruise missiles instead of trucks. So when we kill civilians, it is morally acceptable because they are collateral damage and not targeted kills…I guess?

                      Actually…I don’t know what is wrong with going back to how both our enemies and “we” did it during WWII…kill everyone we can until they stop fighting (see, the fire bombings of Dresden, the Blitz of London and the atomic bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki, you know…to see which bomb worked best, Little Boy or Fat Man.) by deliberately targeting civilian populations to demoralize the enemy and to deny them recruits, supplies, and a base of operations?

                      They say we can’t kill our way out of this mess. And I say maybe that’s because we haven’t started trying hard enough…yet. But forgive…I digress.

                      So…once again here is my point. How would you feel if Jesse Steed would have said into the radio just before he led his crew to their deaths on Eric Marsh’s orders, “Allahu Akbar.” And of course that also assumes Steed would have been of the Muslim faith.

                      I am betting that invoking God’s name for what happened or was about to happen would NOT have okay with either you or former PFD Pastor Willis. In other words, I beleive you are fine with YOUR God being up to his neck in what happened but you would not feel the same way about Allahu being in the mix.

                      As far as you never hearing Willis defame Mormons…I was a lot closer to Willis than ever have ever been, I got that one right on the money. Take it to the bank and cash it…because it’s good.

                    • Gary Olson says

                      And FYI – It is pretty hard to throw a rock in any of the western states and NOT hit a Mormon, someone who respects and likes Mormons, or someone who doesn’t have a family member who is Mormon. So…watch where you throw rocks, even in Prescott…the place is crawling with them.

                    • Gary Olsoln says

                      Whoops, “As far as you never hearing Willis defame Mormons…I was a lot closer to Willis than YOU ever have ever been, I got that one right on the money. Take it to the bank and cash it…because it’s good.”

                    • Gary Olson says

                      Whoops, it should read, “As far as you never hearing Willis defame Mormons…I was a lot closer to Willis than YOU ever have ever been, I got that one right on the money. Take it to the bank and cash it…because it’s good.”

                      And I am NOT advocating a tactical nuclear strike on Raqqa and beyond. But I am saying that if it’s a binary choice…us or them…I pick THEM.

                    • Gary Olson says

                      Oh…and one more thing. You said, “Which is just [one] reason Donald Trump is going to lose the election in a historic landslide … threatening Senator Jeff Flake in HIS house…really?”

                      You may be right. Only time will tell.”

                      And YOU may right, only time will tell. Although it is a win/win for me.

                      If we can get another progressive in the White House, I think it will be better for everyone who is not part of the top 1%,

                      But either way, it will be OK with me since I have my piece of the pie and I am right smack in the middle of Trump’s demographic base…an angry old white guy who was never anything more than a blue collar worker at heart even though I wore a white collar for 18 years. Well…it was either white or BDU…depending on the day.

                    • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

                      Reply to Gary Olson post on
                      July 15, 2016 at 12:22 am

                      >> Gary said…
                      >>
                      >> OK Fred…I am going to admit it, trying
                      >> to understand your argument makes
                      >> my head hurt,

                      An awful lot of ‘fancy talk’ for just…

                      “I do not WANT to answer that question”.

                      ( Which, itself, is an answer ).

                      If there was any set of ‘imaginary friends’ that Eric Marsh was ‘aligned with’ at the time of his death… it would appear to be of the ‘Buddhist’ kind.

                      There is a statue of Buddha on his ACTUAL grave marker on his ACTUAL grave there in the Prescott Pioneer cemetery.

                      So maybe the more relevant question to ask is…

                      Who was allowed to decide that a Christian cross be stuck in the ground on the spot where he died?

                      And not just ANY ‘Christian cross’, either.

                      Someone made a choice to use the ‘Budded cross’ variant for all 19 ‘crosses’.

                      The ‘Budded Cross’ is also known as the Apostles’ Cross, the Treflée, Botonée or Cathedral Cross.

                      It supposedly has its own origins from the time when Christianity was being ‘saved’ by the Irish and many pre-Christian Celtic ( RTS would call them ‘pagan’ ) symbols where being ‘integrated’ into the ‘product branding’ and the ‘icons’.

                      So WHO decided that THAT is the ‘cross’ that should mark the places where all 19 of those men died… regardless of their ‘religious’ affiliations ( or lack thereof )?

                      Darrell Willis?
                      Deborah Pfingston?

                      I actually don’t think it was Amanda Marsh.

                    • Gary Olson says

                      Those are all really good questions that I would like to know the answers to. As everyone knows by now, I really believe in the separation of church and state.

                      As I have also said before, I worked at what I consider to be the center of the Catholic Faith in the United States for 12 years that is actually named Santa Fe = Holy Faith and another 4 years at what could be described as the secondary location…Albuquerque which is a 300 year city named after the Spanish Duke of Albuquerque and I never once, I repeat never once, felt ANY influence in any way on how we conducted the work for the people as public servants.

                      I don’t think there is any excuse for the quasi born again Christian intrusion into the GMIHC when they were alive or now that they are dead. They were civil servants, not employees of Christ.

                      And discriminate against a Muslim, or an atheist or someone who practices the Shinto faith and you discriminate against me.

                      Oh…and one more thing RTS, atheists and many other people think all religious beliefs are…BIZARRE. You are the pot calling the kettle black.

                      So…let me get this straight. Just because a dead body isn’t where you left it the night before the next morning…that means it came back alive and floated up or down or sideways to heaven and is going to come back to Earth in the future so you have to get ready for that event?

                      Take your personal belief out of that scenario and tell how BIZARRE that sounds, but you and the Mormons share that very same belief. in exactly the very same way, for the very same reasons.

                    • Robert the Second says

                      Woodsman says
                      July 14, 2016 at 7:19 pm

                      “RTS,

                      It’s a doggone shame that not one of those argument types you have quoted apply to Gary’s question(s). Not even close, man. Including the latin was a nice touch though … made it sound so sophisticated. Keep trying, you may get one…eventually. Never give up! haha”

                      Thanks for your reply. You know I post these from time to time to draw you out of the shadows.

                      You posted that not one of the logical fallacies apply, yet you provide me no counter argument and/or proof. Pretty weak.

                      The Latin was in the original citations, not mine. At least I cite my sources and/or provide links for people to verify, more than most do.

                      “You are at your most entertaining when you go the uber-quote high-brow ultra-sophistication route.”

                      Not taking any “uber-quote high-brow ultra-sophistication route.” At least I cite my sources and/or provide links for people to verify, more than most do.

                      “I know. I know. I can ESAD,,,,,,,”

                      That’s up to you.

                    • Robert the Second says

                      Gary Olson says
                      July 14, 2016 at 11:38 pm

                      “RTS said, “And no man is my leader, therefore, Franklin Graham is NOT one of my leaders”
                      Sorry bout that…you people all look alike to me.”

                      So then, what distinguishing feature(s) and/or how do all of us “people all look alike” to you?

                      Is that from all your years of Law Dog experience that you acquired that alleged skill?

                    • Robert the Second says

                      Gary,

                      You posted July 15, 2016 at 12:22 am:

                      “I am betting that invoking God’s name for what happened or was about to happen would NOT have okay with either you or former PFD Pastor Willis. In other words, I beleive [sp?] you are fine with YOUR God being up to his neck in what happened but you would not feel the same way about Allahu being in the mix.”

                      Not quite sure what you mean by “invoking God’s name for what happened or was about to happen would NOT have okay with either you or former PFD Pastor Willis.”

                      I can assure you that many, if not most, of those men were “invoking God’s name for … [what] was about to happen” to them in their Deployment Zone and while they were dying. So that would have been okay with me and likely former PFD Pastor Willis as well..

                      As I have said before many times, The Bible holds and I believe that everything happens because God allows it

                      And regarding the “you would not feel the same way about Allahu [sp?] being in the mix” posting; it depends.

                      Yes, I would be okay with someone believing in Allah (‘in the mix’). Once again as you well know (or should know) , it’s our constitutional First Amendment right of Freedom of Religion.

                      I am NOT okay with someone invoking Allah’s name as they took the Crew to their deaths, similar to Muslim terrorist suicide bombers. That’s religious fanaticism and murder!.

                      And it’s a bogus argument. Give me the names, places, dates, etc. of ‘Christian’ serial killers, murderers, and/or terrorists.

                      And if you cite either the Crusades and/or the Spanish Inquisition, that was the murderous Roman Catholic Church, back in the day.

                      You also posted: “I don’t think there is any excuse for the quasi born again Christian intrusion into the GMIHC when they were alive or now that they are dead. They were civil servants, not employees of Christ.”

                      As you well know, it’s in the Constitution and it’s called the First Amendment right of Freedom of Religion.

                      You also posted: “And discriminate against a Muslim, or an atheist or someone who practices the Shinto faith and you discriminate against me.”

                      How am I discriminating against you or anyone else by simply DISAGREEING with you or your religious beliefs and/or stance?

                      You also posted: “Oh…and one more thing RTS, atheists and many other people think all religious beliefs are…BIZARRE. You are the pot calling the kettle black.”

                      As you well know (or should know) we are all entitled to our beliefs and associations based on the First Amendment.

                      You also posted: “So…let me get this straight. Just because a dead body isn’t where you left it the night before the next morning…that means it came back alive and floated up or down or sideways to heaven and is going to come back to Earth in the future so you have to get ready for that event?”

                      Jesus’ death and resurrection and coming back again (The Second Coming) was/is prophesied in The Bible for thousands of years.

                      The Bible is being proven true and accurate every single day.

                      You also posted: “Take your personal belief out of that scenario and tell how BIZARRE that sounds, but you and the Mormons share that very same belief. in exactly the very same way, for the very same reasons.”

                      It is NOT my personal belief. It is prophesied in The Bible.

                      And yes, me “and the Mormons share that very same belief. in exactly the very same way, for the very same reasons.”

                      It’s in The Bible. But they also follow The Book of Mormon, which are ‘traditions of men,’ of which is in The Bible, and we are warned against following,i.e. ‘traditions of men,’

                    • Robert the Second says

                      Gary,

                      Some clarification about the Crusades.

                      “Crusades were fought for many reasons: to capture Jerusalem, recapture Christian territory, or defend Christians in non-Christian lands; as a means of conflict resolution among Roman Catholics; for political or territorial advantage; and to combat paganism and heresy.”

                      Much of The Crusades was battling against the Muslim terrorism of that day.

                    • Gary Olson says

                      That is the most delusional account I have ever read anybody come up with for the Crusades. That isn’t rewriting history…that is entirely making it up. And I am no apologist for the Saracens, but you make it easy to dislike Christians. And I am a Christian.

                    • Robert the Second says

                      Gary,

                      You posted on July 16 at 1236 am: “That is the most delusional account I have ever read anybody come up with for the Crusades. That isn’t rewriting history…that is entirely making it up. And I am no apologist for the Saracens, but you make it easy to dislike Christians. And I am a Christian.:

                      Interesting that you would feel that way. I am not delusional nor rewriting history. Those are not my words or thoughts. They are right out of Wikipedia, so take it up with them.

                      “The Crusades were a series of religious wars (broadly defined) by the Latin Church that took place between the 11th and 15th centuries, though historians do not agree on any single definition of a crusade, or which specific military campaigns should be included.”

                      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crusades

                  • Robert the Second says

                    Gary,

                    You posted on July 15, 2016 at 12:59 pm: “… As everyone knows by now, I really believe in the separation of church and state.”

                    The separation of church and state is NOT an American construct. It is NOT in our Constitution and it came about from a misinterpretation of something Thomas Jefferson wrote in a letter to the Danbury Baptists in 1802.

                    “.To messers. Nehemiah Dodge, Ephraim Robbins, & Stephen S. Nelson, a committee of the Danbury Baptist association in the state of Connecticut.

                    Gentlemen

                    The affectionate sentiments of esteem and approbation which you are so good as to express towards me, on behalf of the Danbury Baptist association, give me the highest satisfaction. my duties dictate a faithful and zealous pursuit of the interests of my constituents, & in proportion as they are persuaded of my fidelity to those duties, the discharge of them becomes more and more pleasing.

                    Believing with you that religion is a matter which lies solely between Man & his God, that he owes account to none other for his faith or his worship, that the legitimate powers of government reach actions only, & not opinions, I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should “make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof,” thus building a wall of separation between Church & State. Adhering to this expression of the supreme will of the nation in behalf of the rights of conscience, I shall see with sincere satisfaction the progress of those sentiments which tend to restore to man all his natural rights, convinced he has no natural right in opposition to his social duties.

                    I reciprocate your kind prayers for the protection & blessing of the common father and creator of man, and tender you for yourselves & your religious association, assurances of my high respect & esteem.

                    Th Jefferson
                    Jan. 1. 1802.”

                    Here is a link to the Communist Constitution of 1936. . Check out Article 124.

                    “ARTICLE 124. In order to ensure to citizens freedom of conscience, the church in the U.S.S.R. is separated from the state, and the school from the church. Freedom of religious worship and freedom of antireligious propaganda is recognized for all citizens.”

                    • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

                      Reply to Robert the Second ( RTS ) post
                      on July 16, 2016 at 9:18 am

                      >> RTS said…
                      >>
                      >> The separation of church and state is
                      >> NOT an American construct. It is NOT
                      >> in our Constitution and it came about
                      >> from a misinterpretation of something
                      >> Thomas Jefferson wrote in a letter to the
                      >> Danbury Baptists in 1802.

                      Sometimes you just don’t ‘Google’ long enough ( or you just stop when you find what supports the point you WANT to make ).

                      It has been decided MANY times by the Supreme Court ( the ultimate interpreter of the US Constitution and US Law ) that the ‘establishment’ clause that is ( very much ) IN the US Constitution ‘establishes’ the ‘separation of church and state’ in this country.

                      Good summary of just SOME of those Supreme Court decisions is HERE…

                      Article Title: Yes… there IS a Constitutional Separation of Church and State
                      http://www.huffingtonpost.com/dale-hansen/yes-there-is-a-constituti_b_8171550.html

                    • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

                      Just ONE example from the article above.

                      Everson v. Board of Education..

                      Article Title: Yes… there IS a Constitutional Separation of Church and State
                      http://www.huffingtonpost.com/dale-hansen/yes-there-is-a-constituti_b_8171550.html

                      ——————————————–
                      It seems that to some people, if the words don’t explicitly appear in the constitution then the idea they refer to isn’t constitutionally guaranteed. Viewing it in these simplistic terms is meant to dismiss the entire argument; as if every decision based on the separation of church and state is somehow invalid because the term separation of church and state doesn’t appear in the constitution.

                      Of course the problems with this assertion are many. First and most basic is the fact that the Supreme Court is the ultimate interpreter of federal constitutional law. This means that while the term “separation of Church and State” may never appear in the constitution itself, the Court ruling in the case of Everson v. Board of Education stated “the clause against establishment of religion by law was intended to erect ‘a wall of separation between Church and State.’”
                      ———————————————–

                    • Gary Olson says

                      I am still going to tell her that you are a religious and intolerant BIGOT…and boy howdy, is she ever going to be pissed off at YOU and all of your little bigoted and intolerant friends!

                    • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

                      Reply to Robert the Second ( RTS ) post
                      July 17, 2016 at 4:35 pm

                      >> RTS said…
                      >>
                      >> WTKTT,
                      >>
                      >> Thanks for the information on the
                      >> alleged Separation of Church and State.
                      >>
                      >> However, I do NOT give much credence
                      >> to the uber-Liberal Huffington Post.

                      The ‘alleged’ Separation of Church and State?

                      You’re cracking me up now.

                      The Huffington post is not ‘the source’.

                      The Supreme Court of the United States is.

                      I know you know how to ‘Google’ so I’ll just let you look up the case references.

                    • Robert the Second says

                      WTKTT,

                      Yes, I know that the Supreme Court was the actual SOURCE of the rulings.

                      What I meant to say was that I prefer to put more emphasis on other explanatory media sources explaining the Court rulings, such as Wall Builders.

                      The Huff Po is far too uber-Liberal for me to accept anything they post as credible. Thanks.

                  • Gary Olson says

                    Robert,

                    I didn’t say our Constitution said there shall be a separation of church and state. I said I believe in the separation of church and state.

                    And without getting down into the weeds and giving an explanation with all of the nuances, this is the clause that almost everyone except for you quotes as a reference that there shall be a separation of church and state. So…take it up with the Founding Fathers.

                    U.S. Constitution

                    First Amendment – Religion and Expression

                    Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

                    And this is a LOT better, thank you for admitting your mistake describing the Crusades,

                    You cut and pasted, “The Crusades were a series of religious wars (broadly defined) by the Latin Church that took place between the 11th and 15th centuries, though historians do not agree on any single definition of a crusade, or which specific military campaigns should be included.”

                    And as far as Wikipedia goes, I like to use it as well and even donate to it but it is notoriously unreliable as a factual source of accurate quotes. That piece was obviously written by a western Christian…probably somebody like you.

                    This is the part you cut and pasted that I disagree with,

                    1. “Crusades were fought for many reasons: to capture Jerusalem, (True)

                    2. recapture Christian territory, (It was NOT Christian territory, (Christians invaded THEIR territory)

                    3. or defend Christians in non-Christian lands; (The Christians would not have needed to be defended if they hadn’t invaded someone eles’s land and would not have been where they should not have been in the first place AND BINGO on this part “non-Christian lands, so you DO get it?)

                    4. as a means of conflict resolution among Roman Catholics; for political or territorial advantage; and to combat paganism and heresy.” (Oh yes…I do see now that you can cut and paste the correct part to describe the Crusades, “for political or territorial advantage”, very good)

                    As far as this spelling goes,” Allahu [sp?” take it up with Wikipedia.

                    ]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allahu_Akbar_(disambiguation)

                    You said “Not quite sure what you mean by “invoking God’s name for what happened or was about to happen would NOT have okay with either you or former PFD Pastor Willis.”

                    This is what I was referring to, saying in so many words what happened to the crew was God’s Will, “God had a different plan for those men”

                    That is the same thing as saying “Allah Akbar”, and one way that is used means, “as God wills” or I place it in God’s hands.

                    You said, “Jesus Christ is my leader.” And I say, the Great Creator is MY leader, Jesus Christ works for God. And if you keep it up, I am going to tell the Great Creator what you said,

                    So I am going back to the beginning of this “discussion” for clarification,

                    “I don’t think there is any excuse for the quasi born again Christian intrusion into the GMIHC when they were alive or now that they are dead. They were civil servants, not employees of Christ.”

                    People who think it is OK to spread THEIR brand of religion at work and to people under their control and supervision…you know….bad people who the Founding Fathers would NOT approve of.

                    And as far as my investigative skills goes by saying, “all you people look alike to me”, I was clearly referring to the fact that all of you religious bigots look alike to me which have nothing to do with my alleged investigative skills.

                    From Wikipedia, “The English noun bigot is a term of abuse aimed at a prejudiced closed-minded person, especially one who is intolerant or hostile towards different social groups (especially, and originally, other religious groups) and especially one whose own beliefs are perceived as unreasonable or excessively narrow-minded, superstitious or hypocritical.”

                    This is really fun. I know I haven’t been able to go to the dunes or to Moab for some time now and there must not be any fires for you to fight. Unfortunately, I don’t have as much patience as you do to look up quotable quotes and wander around the internet looking for stuff to post that you THINK supports you ridiculous arguments, I have the time, I just don’t have the patience.

                    • Gary Olson says

                      Whoops, “Well…as usual WTKTT said what I wanted to say before I said it AND he said it better.”

                    • Robert the Second says

                      Gary,

                      You posted: “And I say, the Great Creator is MY leader, Jesus Christ works for God. And if you keep it up, I am going to tell the Great Creator what you said,”

                      He already knows.

                      And furthermore, Jesus Christ does NOT work for God, He is BOTH the Son of God AND God. The Bible clearly speaks of: God the Son, God the Father, and God the Holy Spirit.

                      From the very beginning we see God as a Trinity. The plural pronouns “us” and “our” in Genesis 1:26 indicate this when God said, “Let us make man in our image, in our likeness, and let them rule over the fish of the sea and the birds of the air, over the livestock, over all the earth, and over all the creatures that move along the ground.”

                      “1 John 5:20 And we know that the Son of God has come and has given us insight to know him who is true, and we are in him who is true, in his Son Jesus Christ. This one is the true God and eternal life.”

                      “John 10:28-33 (NIV)

                      28 I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand. 29 My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father’s hand. 30 I and the Father are one.”

                    • Gary Olson says

                      Whoops…wrong place, “I am still going to tell her that you are a religious and intolerant BIGOT…and boy howdy, is she ever going to be pissed off at YOU and all of your little bigoted and intolerant friends!”

                    • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

                      Reply to Robert the Second (RTS) post on
                      July 16, 2016 at 8:42 pm

                      >> RTS said…
                      >>yer
                      >> And furthermore, Jesus Christ does
                      >> NOT work for God,

                      Oh fer cryin;’ out loud.

                      I’ll call yer ‘John 10:28-33 ( NIV )’ and raise you a ‘John 6:38 ( NIV )’ ( Yes… same ‘John’ guy and same NIV Bible started by that General Electric Engineer in Seattle named Howard Long that you are so dedicated to )

                      “For I have come down from heaven not to do my will but to do the will of him who sent me.”

                      Sure SOUNDS like a ‘contractor’ talking.

                      I think I’ve used that exact phrase myself a few times when I’ve shown up unannounced as a ‘sharpshooter’ and the local management asks “What the fuck are YOU doing here”… but it probably sounded more like…

                      “For I have come down from corporate headquarters not to do my will but to do the will of him who sent me. So pull up a chair and start answering some questions.”

                    • Robert the Second says

                      Gary,

                      I will admit to being close minded when it comes to God and Jesus Christ because that is what The Word tells us, to focus on Him and not on the world and worldly things.

                      You posted: “The English noun bigot is a term of abuse aimed at a prejudiced closed-minded person, especially one who is intolerant or hostile towards different social groups (especially, and originally, other religious groups) and especially one whose own beliefs are perceived as unreasonable or excessively narrow-minded, superstitious or hypocritical.”

                      Quite a loaded definition too, adding the word “prejudiced” using circular reasoning to come to that conclusion.

                      Clearly, I am NOT “intolerant or hostile towards different social groups (especially, and originally, other religious groups).”

                      I merely DISAGREE with them as I consider those beliefs to be unbiblical and in many cases pagan, permissible non-bigot conclusions on my part.

                      The same ‘bigot’ definition you cite can be used against this, within the definition: “and especially one whose own beliefs are perceived as unreasonable or excessively narrow-minded, superstitious or hypocritical.”

                      This conclusion is from another person judging this alleged person with different beliefs.

                      So, by your definition, whomever says my Christian “beliefs are perceived as unreasonable or excessively narrow-minded, superstitious or hypocritical” is also a bigot.

                      Therefore, your definition of ‘bigot’ applies to you all as well.

                      This all fits so well with today’s societal notion of ‘being offended.’ So what. Deal with it.

                    • Robert the Second says

                      WTKTT,

                      You posted: “Oh fer cryin;’ out loud.

                      I’ll call yer ‘John 10:28-33 ( NIV )’ and raise you a ‘John 6:38 ( NIV )’ ( Yes… same ‘John’ guy and same NIV Bible started by that General Electric Engineer in Seattle named Howard Long that you are so dedicated to )”

                      It’s that time …

                      “For the time will come when people will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear.” 2 Timothy 4:3

                      “In whose case the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelieving so that they might not see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God.”
                      2 Corinthians 4:4

                      Believe whatever you want to believe.

                      As I have posted before, I use the NIV because it’s fairly easy for others to understand.

                    • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

                      Reply to Robert the Second ( RTS )
                      post on July 17, 2016 at 12:35 pm

                      >> RTS said…
                      >>
                      >> It’s that time …
                      >>
                      >> “For the time will come when people
                      >> will not put up with sound doctrine.

                      I’ve got a news flash for you.

                      That ‘time’ has ALWAYS been around.

                      Some people ALWAYS have their ‘bullshit’ alarms set… and as well they should.

                      One of my own ( personal ) criteria for ‘sound doctrine’ happens to include a requirement that it doesn’t fucking contradict itself ever 4 ‘paragraphs’ or ‘chapters’ or ‘verses’ and require scholars working for over a thousand years to try and figure out what it all means.

                      You can ‘believe it’ ( ALL of it )… and just look beyond all the contradictions… but that still doesn’t make it ‘sound doctrine’.

                      You and I both know that the whole “Subservience versus the Trinity Concept” argument/debate has been going on for centuries…. and ANYONE can find ANY number of ‘quotes’ to support EITHER side of the argument all through ANY translation.

                      >> RTS also said…
                      >>
                      >> Believe whatever you want to believe.

                      Right back atcha. ( and we certainly don’t need each other’s ‘permission’ to do so ).

                  • Robert the Second says

                    Gary,

                    No telling where this post will end up.

                    You posted: “If we can get another progressive in the White House, I think it will be better for everyone who is not part of the top 1%,”

                    ‘[A]nother progressive in the White House’ – are you kidding me?

                    Progressive is merely a modern euphemism for a Socialist, a Marxist, and even a Fascist these days.

                    Another progressive in the White House will almost ensure the demise of our country.

                    How will that benefit our country?

            • Gary Olson says

              And sputum, it’s disgusting, but I am like a sputum machine 24./7. That seems to be just about all my body produces anymore…sputum. .WTF….Over?

              A sputum culture is a test to detect and identify bacteria or fungi (plural of fungus) that are infecting the lungs or breathing passages. Sputum is a thick fluid produced in the lungs and in the airways leading to the lungs.

            • Gary Olson says

              Actually…I have already lived several lifetimes, or at least if feels that way and it was one hell-of-a-ride. It was an E Ticket ride combined with Mr. Toad’s Wild Ride all in one. I really do feel sorry for everyone that is never going to be able to do the things I have done and see the things I have seen. Once again to the America people…thank you.

              • Joy A. Collura says

                You have a hardworking beautiful wife and you have great times…I cannot imagine this earth minus YOU so really…you can live several lifetimes…but I like to think you will be here a long long long time…go play ball…or something…when you talk or type like this I say “tune YOU out” because he is dancing to a shitty tune today—LIFE is so freaking great several times over that I cannot imagine to think of our lives without GARY

                • Gary Olson says

                  Gee…Joy, I don’t know what so say other than to say I will go ahead and stick around as long as I can.

                  I really am thinking about blogging some more about this smoke inhalation thing, I think the USFS and MEDC have really missed all of the warning signs and opportunities to make a difference for a few decades now.

                  My situation was well known by everybody who either knew me or knew of me back in the day and I was probably the worst case in Region 3 but I was not the only one.

                  And gee whiz, you just kicked RTS’s ass with this comment, I am glad I am not on your shit list right now. OMG.

                  http://www.investigativemedia.com/please-begin-yarnell-hill-fire-chapter-xxii-here/#comment-341684

                  • Robert the Second says

                    Gary,

                    Kicked his ass? Hardly.

                    It’s only fair to post the RTS reply to which Joy did not reply.

                    “Joy,

                    So it’s okay to use God’s name in vain (GD this or that, Jesus f**king Christ, etc.) but it’s NOT okay to talk about God?

                    What law states that someone is not allowed to talk about God?

                    Do you consider talking about God to be the same as ‘forcing religion’ on someone or spreading ‘their brand of religion’?”

                    • Joy A. Collura says

                      I AM WHAT I AM my father use to say to me.
                      My reply to RTS since he feels like he does on faith sharing…Allah will help those who help Him.

                      Now I could be telling you that as my reply out of GET THE POINT humor or maybe out of fear because if you go to salomotic you can see how many mosques are in our own America and this is the faith that murdered a lot I known in the name of Him and or how about the South Phoenix cop who got an award the same day as my dad as an officer but it was the day I learned he was one of the ten men in a dark alley who stuffed me. In a dumpster in 1988 left me to die with a concrete parking space divider but that officer was doing that for his religious beliefs too…hmm..the spreading of any word or Word must be done in a healthy way by healthy minded folks because too many in authority sleep amongst their congregations… So there is your answer. and in know there is a very mixed up cultural world out there so instead of saying yeah its good to have faith sharing I rather talk to my Father and have a personal relationship asking Him and praising Him and fearing Him not man….. Where is mine down below….my answer…your turn…also remember with Marti Reed not here and being the only female and I can be emotional and irrational I waited for Him to say what I need to say…The healthy minded should not be directing or getting all philoshical… They should freely be given the not so blessed with the proper tools to gain healthy ways mind body and soul so the way you react RTS to Gary saying its OK to say His name in vain but you can’t spread the Word…one who is healthy would not point fingers with questions but step up to the plate and lead with hope encouraging optimism… Questions like you said can lead to more negative paths than good ones… Now with that all being said I love God…He loves me and from that it depends how much time Him and I build together that I can be of any service to another…so if my Bible is dusty…pretty much means my life us rusty…than if you see others in that spot …simple prayer is all tgatbis needed not is itnok to say His name in vain? And feel your question needed my reply now you got a God guided one..

    • Charlie says

      Got a little taste of that agent orange fire retardant Gary. Well just about every Uranium miner I knew is already dead from lung cancer or COPD and smoking helped. I have the COPD diagnosis and never was a smoker. Hell Joy and Norb left me behind on their hike up the Weavers. People keep dumping the chemicals and we reap the results.

  32. Gary Olson says

    Joy says, (but she is having trouble posting this from her cell phone).

    Godisnowhere.

    Said it here before…its how you read it… God is now here or god is nowhere… Gary I will share to you God is in everything but that day it was not of His hands but man made errors that was present and RTS always come to defense to Willis and I stand behind Willis too…he made choices through this all that may not satisfy man but God cloaks us all not those who seek him because listening to thousands of folks since I was little and how they come to have a relationship with Him..they were not seeking…my best friend is over 100 and she always said a person coat says a lot about themselves and I thought what..they are poor or not or they keep with fads..what.. But she meant the cloak of Spirit…RTS has his opinion but from the purity of Christianity one is not to defend or judge or do what he is doing but even RTS pop could tell you if he was still amongst the earth..RTS is rts..even his pops couldn’t curve him to comprehend the purity of each soul…instead he gets locked on ideals and ideas and RTS could use a moment to get Gary has every right to have his way of thoughts

    • Robert the Second says

      Gary,

      You posted: “I think I summed it up very well when I told John Dougherty the following in his article …,

      http://www.phoenixnewtimes.com/news/yarnell-hill-fire-the-granite-mountain-hotshots-never-shouldve-been-deployed-mounting-evidence-shows-6656696

      “If you accept that this horrific catastrophe — unprecedented in the history of hotshots — is because God had a different plan for those 19 men, THEN YOU’RE NOT GOING TO GO BEYOND GOD’S WILL FOR CAUSAL FACTORS, AND THAT MEANS YOU’RE GOING TO LEAVE THE DOOR OPEN FOR THIS TO HAPPEN AGAIN,” says Gary Olson, a former superintendent of Arizona’s Happy Jack Hotshots, founder of the Santa Fe Hotshots, …” (EMPHASIS ADDED).

      WRONG! Since July 1, 2013, I have and I will continue to support Darrel Willis’ claim that God had a different plan for those men that fateful day AND also ‘TO GO BEYOND GOD’S WILL [SEARCHING] FOR CASUAL FACTORS’ in my journey to do research all that I can to discover the causes, and reasons regarding the YH Fire Human Factors that influenced the deaths of the 19 GMHS on 30 June 2013.

      The search for the truth regarding the Human Factors is an uphill struggle indeed, with countless roadblocks and other struggles. Human Factors has been called an ‘imperfect science’ by some, however, it must be researched because that is what gets WFF’s and others into life-or-death predicaments in hazardous wildland fire situations.

      One must research aviation Human Factors papers to seek answers since there is such a lack of it in the WF world.

      This is an amazing paper written in 1998 that basically comes very close to summing up why the YH Fire fatalities occurred when they continued to support their dangerous and faulty plan to leave their SZ.

      http://ntrs.nasa.gov/archive/nasa/casi.ntrs.nasa.gov/20020063485.pdf

      Then, there is that feigned desire by some to ‘search for the truth.’

      From Amanda Marsh’s own PUBLIC “Eric Marsh Foundation for Wildland Firefighter’s” Facebook page. “I want the Yarnell Hill Fire to be studied for the truth of what happened so that future fighters can learn.”

      “Amanda Marsh posted: “I WANT THE YARNELL HILL FIRE TO BE STUDIED FOR THE TRUTH OF WHAT HAPPENED SO THAT FUTURE [FIRE] FIGHTERS CAN LEARN. (EMPHASIS)

      She posted: “I ask that when the Granite Mountain Hotshots are discussed it is done with kindness and sensitivity. I want the Yarnell Hill Fire to be studied for the truth of what happened so that future fighters can learn. THERE IS TRUTH AND THERE ARE LIES. I AM FINE WITH THE TRUTH. The lies truly break my heart.” (EMPHASIS ADDED)

      That may be what she posted on her Facebook page, however, the reality of the situation is entirely different. I empathize with her regarding the lies breaking her heart. The truth to those that do not or will not believe it can be very painful, and so, It’s easier to take the easy way out and call it lies.

      Syndicated columnist Thomas Sowell posted: ‘When you want to help people, you tell them the truth. When you want to help yourself, you tell them what they want to hear.’

      Do the facts not matter to those who are denouncing those that attempt to expose the truth to those that claim to want it? Does the actual fate of future WFF’s they supposedly want to help not matter to them, as much as their symbolic presence on public forums?

      From the time since the YH Fire and SAIR, those that have claimed to seek and/or speak the truth (e.g. alleged ‘FACTUAL’ Investigation Report) have instead actually sought to suppress the very concept of the truth as it relates to the Human Factors that led to the the GMHS’ deaths with these conclusions.

      The SAIR claimed ‘The Team found no indication of negligence, reckless actions, or violations of policy or protocol.’ Stated in the affirmative: they did everything right, yet 19 men died.

      Not f**king possible”

      The painful farce of calling the WFF’s decisions and actions on 30 June 2013 “no indication of negligence, reckless actions, or violations of policy or protocol” shows how far the ‘Powers That Be’ would go to disguise, downplay and outright lie about WHY these deaths occurred. and It fed the pretense that the tried-and-trued Basic WFF Rules didn’t work and don’t work, and so there were no new lessons to learn.

      It’s actually more like: Suppress the truth; oppress, discredit, and smear those that discover it and attempt to expose the truth; and kill the messenger(s) that would oppose the Party Line. Then others will see what happens to those that attempt to seek the truth and will instead avoid it, because they don’t want the same abuse by the Don’t Really Want To Know The Truth crowd.

    • Rocksteady says

      I do not believe in God. Period…

      Call me an aetheist or a heathen, I don’t care. I do not believe that an “ever loving God would allow such pain on his followers…

      May I rot in purgatory forever for posting that but I do not care…

      Like they say “Go ahead, send me to hell, I will just figure out a burn off operation to put it out”..,

      • Robert the Second says

        Rocksteady,

        Its still a free country. You’re entitled to your own beliefs.

        Here’s a link that will much better than I can, explain a cogent answer to your questions and doubts about a loving God allowing bad things.

        http://www.christiananswers.net/q-eden/edn-t023.html

        And ‘purgatory’ is a Roman Catholic construct based on multiple pagan beliefs. Most Catholics no longer believe in it, but the RC Church doctrine still strongly holds that belief.

        It’s so the Catholic believers can ‘buy’ their way into heaven through Sunday Masses, also based on paganism.

        No comment on being able to burn your way out of or extinguish the flames of Hell.

        • Gary Olson says

          He’s Canadian, although that’s a free country as well.

          And yes, I think Amanda Marsh and others like her are only interested in the truth they want to hear.

          • Rocksteady says

            I don’t drink the religious Kool -Aid.

            I did go to the link RTS and still am a non believer

            I am all about tangible evidence…

            Sort of like Sasquatch, show me PROOF of their existence (bodies, good video, some tangible evidence)…

            I don’t believe in ghosts, UFO’s, Aliens or anything else until it can be proven..,

            • Robert the Second says

              Rocksteady,

              I do not drink the religious Kool -Aid either. I believe in God because of faith and things I’ve experienced. Things have occurred in our lives that have no possible explanation other than God

              I’m glad you went to the link I posted and it’s okay that you are still a .non believer. It took me years.

              You posted: “I am all about tangible evidence” I can understand that.
              There is a verses in Romans 1:19-21, that talks about that.

              “For what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood from His workmanship, so that men are without excuse. For although they knew God, they neither glorified Him as God nor gave thanks to Him, but they became futile in their thinking and darkened in their foolish hearts.…”

              I too don’t believe in ghosts, UFO’s, Aliens, and even more … .evolution, the Big Bang Theory, Global Warming, or anything else until it can be proven.

              I don’t know if it’s possible to “prove” that God. exists. I believe that God exists, and we can know that, we can give reasons, and those reasons amount to proof, but not scientific proof, except in an unusually broad sense.

      • Charlie says

        Rock Steady–more atheists than Christians will make it to heaven–they probably wont want to stay there though–I for one don’t handle bullshit too well. Dying ain’t so bad, when I was on life support it was damn good being on the plane of the dead–

  33. WantsToKnowTheTruth says

    Reply to Joy A. Collura post on July 7, 2016 at 9:50 pm

    >> Joy A. Collura asked…
    >>
    >> So when Pat McCarty went structural in 2010 and now an actor…
    >> did Clayton fill his shoes as squad boss at that time?
    >>
    >> http://www.prescott-az.gov/_d/agendas/2010-05-25_2613_min.pdf

    Based on the content of that link, and the ‘minutes’ of that Prescott City Council meeting… the answer seems to be ‘yes’.

    At THAT meeting ( held on May 25, 2010 ), Pat McCarty’s ‘move’ from being a ‘Squad Leader’ with the Granite Moutain Hotshots over to the ‘structural’ fire department was approved… and then so was Clayton Whitted’s ‘move up’ to ‘Squad Leader’, as well as then either Phillip Maldonado’s and/or Austin Mork’s ‘move up’ to replace the ‘Senior Wildland Firefighter’ job now also being ‘vacated’ by moving Whitted to
    ‘Squad Leader’.

    From the ‘minutes’ of that May 25, 2010 Prescott City Council meeting…
    ————————————————————-
    PRESCOTT CITY COUNCIL
    SPECIAL MEETING
    TUESDAY, MAY 25, 2010
    PRESCOTT, ARIZONA

    MINUTES of the Prescott City Council Workshop held on May 25, 2010 in the City Hall Council Chambers, 201 South Cortez, Prescott, Arizona

    Mr. Bates introduced the following people:

    Pat McCarty previously held the position of Squad Leader in the Wildland Division and was appointed to the new position of Structure Firefighter.
    – Clayton Whitted promoted from Wildland Firefighter to Squad Leader
    – Phillip Maldonado promoted from Seasonal Wildland Firefighter to Senior Wildland Firefighter
    – Austin Mork promoted from Seasonal Wildland Firefighter to Senior Wildland Firefighter

    ————————————————————-

    According to an interview that Pat McCarty did with NBC News back on May 22, 2014, McCarty left the ‘Granite Mountain’ crew ( in 2010 ) to (quote) “start a family”…

    NBC News
    Article Title: Hotshots Return to Arizona a Year After Yarnell Hill Wildfires
    Published: May 22, 2014 – By Alex Johnson
    http://www.nbcnews.com/storyline/western-wildfires/hotshots-return-arizona-year-after-yarnell-hill-wildfires-n111576
    —————————————————————————————–
    Hotshot crews are the cream of the crop, recruited from other fire agencies to staff elite teams that take on the toughest, most dangerous assignments.

    “I would relate it to special operations in the military branch,” said Pat McCarty, a former Granite Mountain Hotshot who left the unit before last year’s deadly fire to start a family.

    “You’re sleeping in the dirt. You’re eating in the dirt. Everything you do is in the dirt,” all while lugging heavy equipment in packs that weigh as much as 70 pounds, McCarty said Wednesday.

    “It’s the most intense experience.”

    McCarty detailed the harrowing life of a Hotshot at a hearing of the board of the Prescott Public Safety Personnel Retirement System transcribed by the local Prescott ENews website.

    The board is considering a request from Juliann Ashcraft, the widow of one of the Granite Mountain Hotshots who died last year, for full survivor and retirement benefits even though her husband was a seasonal employee — that is, one who worked only during the height of wildfire season.

    Still, McCarty, the former Hotshot, said Wednesday that his assignment with the Granite Mountain unit was “one of the most gratifying things I’ve ever done in my life.”
    ——————————————————————————————

    Due to the ‘two links per message’ rule… see the ‘Next Reply’ for how Pat MaCarty probably first got involved with “The MOVIE” thing…

    ( Continued Next ‘Reply’ )…

    • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

      ** Pat McCarty was in the original GQ “No Exit” article…

      Pat McCarty’s connection to the ‘movie’ probably began when he was one of the featured ‘interviewees’ in that original Sean Flynn GQ Magazine article entitled “No Exit”, which the original ‘movie’ was ( supposedly ) based on.

      From that original GQ “No Exit” article… by Sean Flynn…
      Published in 2013 by the ‘Conde Nast’ Entertainment Group.
      http://www.gq.com/long-form/no-exit
      —————————————————————————————
      That’s why Pat McCarty signed on in the spring of ’05—to travel. “I was going to get to see places in this country most people never see,” he says. In five seasons—he transferred to the city side of the Prescott Fire Department in 2010—he fought wildfires in every state west of the Mississippi and most of the Southeast.

      And he did see things most people will never see, spectacular and wondrous things, made even more so by how hard he labored to see them.

      “You’re working your balls off all day with nineteen other guys, they’re all as miserable as you are, you’re cutting fire lines all day,” he says. And at the end of one of those days, you’ll cut a line that ties in with another on the north rim of the Grand Canyon, and then you’ll sit on the edge, legs dangling. The sky will be tangerine and persimmon to the west, and an atmospheric inversion will trap all the smoke in the canyon below, so you will see only gray until, every few minutes, a smoldering log will break loose and crash into the depths and explode like fireworks.

      “And it’s the most beautiful thing,” McCarty says, “you’ve ever seen in your life.”
      —————————————————————————————

      The ‘Conde Naste’ entertainment group ( which owns GQ magazine ), already had this thing going where ‘articles’ they would publish in their various eZines would find their way to being made into MOVIES… and that’s how this whole “No Exit” movie thing got started.

      The ‘Conde Naste’ group thought they would just ‘rinse and repeat’ and try to turn that GQ article into another ‘movie’.

      But what eventually happened was that author ‘Sean Flynn’ himself, and his original article, got ‘thrown under the bus’ as the whole MOVIE project went out for investment, and other producers got involved ( it happens ).

      They got rid of ‘Sean Flynn’ as one of he ‘authors’ ( and the title “No Exit” right along with him )… and now the actual in-production MOVIE only lists screenwriters Ken Nolan ( Blackhawk Down ) and Eric Warren Singer ( American Hustle ).

      But Pat MaCarty was already ‘known’ to the original ‘Conde Naste’ entertainment group as a former GM Hotshot and Squad Leader.

      So regardless of eventually throwing original GQ author ‘Sean Flynn’ and his ‘No Exit’ article under the bus… the ‘Conde Naste Entertainment’ group is still backing the movie and they just ‘added’ ‘Black Label Media’ and ‘Di Bonavetura Pictures’ as fellow ‘producers.

      Pat MaCarty has his own PUBLIC ‘Instagram’ page, and he’s been ‘updating’ it since he got involved with the movie.

      That Pat MaCarty ‘Instagram’ page is HERE…

      azelkhunter ( Arizona Elk Hunter ) – Pat McCarty’s Instagram page
      https://www.instagram.com/azelkhunter/

      In one of his latest photos and the comments being left… we see actor Josh Brolin himself telling Pat McCarty that he is the PRIMARY influence on whatever the movie is going to show about actually ‘being’ a Hotshot.

      See the next ‘Reply’ for a link to that recent posting…

      • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

        Again… Pat McCarty’s PUBLIC Instagram page is here…

        azelkhunter ( Arizona Elk Hunter ) – Pat McCarty’s Instagram page
        https://www.instagram.com/azelkhunter/

        He posted the following photo to his PUBLIC Instagram page just YESTERDAY.

        It shows one of the other actors playing one of the other GM Hotshots backlit by the sun and walking along ( carring a chainsaw )…

        https://www.instagram.com/p/BHln3zZAAHx/?taken-by=azelkhunter

        The two comments left on this photo posted YESTERDAY come from actor Josh Brolin himself, and former GM Hotshot Brandon Bunch, who has ALSO been hired to be in the movie and actually has ‘Billing’ in the cast list as playing his old friend and deceased GM Hotshot Garrett Zuppiger.

        joshbrolin – Actor Josh Brolin’s Instagram ‘handle’
        bunchofgrams – Brandon Bunch’s Instagram ‘handle’.

        ——————————————————-
        azelkhunter ( Pat McCarty )
        These guys have put a lot of work into getting this film correct and accurate to represent all hotshots with integrity and passion. Very happy with where we are and how they have all done. Couldn’t be more proud to work with these guys. #granitemountain #GMIHC #granitemountainhotshots

        joshbrolin ( Actor Josh Brolin )
        My brother, if it wasn’t for you, this wouldn’t be what it is.
        You are the heart of this hopeful manifestation.
        #respectfully

        bunchofgrams ( Brandon Bunch )
        Pat you are the man. Thanks for your hard work dude.

        ——————————————————-

        So there is actor Josh Brolin himself saying ( to Pat McCarty ) that he is not just some ‘consultant’ on this ‘Granite Mountain Movie’ thing. Brolin himself is now calling McCarty the HEART of the ‘thing’, and that whatever representation is made by the movie of what being a Hotshot is like will be mostly coming from this McCarty guy.

        Interesting.

        • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

          And in the following VIDEO posted by former-GM-Hotshot-turned-actor Pat McCarty… we see one of the only confirmations of an actual SCENE that was actually being filmed for the movie.

          In this video… Pat McCarty and fellow former-GM-turned-actor Brandon Bunch are ‘dropping’ a tree that looks like it’s supposed to be a ‘fake’ lightning strike ( toad ).

          We know they were actually FILMING this scene because at the end of McCarty’s video clip, after the tree hits the ground, we hear any number of people in the background yelling CUT!

          https://www.instagram.com/p/BHPvICcgyVN/?taken-by=azelkhunter

            • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

              Reply to Robert the Second ( RTS ) post on
              July 9, 2016 at 6:39 pm

              >> RTS said…
              >>
              >> Pay attention to all the dead standing trees in the
              >> right background from insects or disease.

              Yes. That ‘Valles Caldera’ area where they are filming has been ‘hard hit’ by both infestations AND bad wildfires in the not-so distant past.

              Such as… the June 2011 Las Conchas Wildfire ( which burned 93,000+ acres in that area )… and the May 2000, Cerro Grande fire… which was that one that started as an escaped prescribed fire and ended up burning 47,000 acres and destroying over 280 homes in the Los Alamos and Valles Caldera area(s).

              It’s actually hard to tell which trees are ‘fire kill’ and which are ‘bug kill’ out there… as this person discovered…

              http://tomtrek.com/valles-caldera-los-alamos-and-abiquiu/

              9th photo down on the page…

              CAPTION: “Thought these were beetle-kill, but it’s due to a 2011 fire ( Las Conchas Wildfire ) that burned 30,000 acres here…”

              The Daily Mail
              Article Title: Firemen fight to isolate 20,000 barrels of nuclear waste at Los Alamos plant as blaze threatens to become largest in New Mexico state history
              Published: 12:28 EST, 2 July 2011
              http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2008649/Los-Alamos-wildfire-Residents-flee-firefighters-battle-blaze-near-nuclear-complex.html
              ——————————————————————–
              The Las Conchas Fire has charred nearly 93,000 acres of thick pine woodlands on the slopes of the Jemez Mountains ( and the Valles Caldera ) since erupting on Sunday near the Los Alamos National Laboratory.
              ——————————————————————–

              ( Continued next Reply due to ‘2 link limit’ )…

              • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

                ( Continued from previous ‘Reply’ )…

                4th photo down on that “Daily Mail’ news article page…

                http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2011/07/01/article-2008649-0CCF811F00000578-859_634x436.jpg

                Photo Caption: Smoke from what will almost certainly be the state’s largest ever wildfire rises behind the The Valles Caldera National Preserve near Los Alamos.

                What you are seeing in that photo is actually a ‘view’ from the middle of the ‘Valles Caldera’ and back towards the area where the ‘Granite Mountain’ movie people are now actually filming.

                A LOT of trees burned around there back in 2011.

                Also…

                Check out this photo of actor James Badge Dale, all dressed up as ‘Jesse Steed’, observing the ‘Valles Caldera’ landscape there on the south slope of Mt. Pajarito, where they have been doing a lot of filming…

                https://www.instagram.com/p/BG5mk4cjxkf/?taken-by=black_label_media

                There are a LOT of ‘dead trees’ there in the background.

                Hard to tell if THEY are ‘bug kill’, or from the 2011 Las Conchas fire, but that’s pretty much what most of the ‘landscape’ out there actually looks like.

                BTW: The IMDB page for the movie is still not ‘admitting’ that actor James Badge Dale is playing ‘Jesse Steed’… but this photo is more secondary proof that he is ( along with some other photos they have posted on social media sites ). Actor James Badge Dale is the only actor in those photos ( other than James Brolin, playing Marsh ) seen wearing a RED Helmet.

      • Joy A. Collura says

        small world they are filming this movie in Sonny’s old stomping grounds…he may say “hey, Joy that is the spot my dad and I put out the lightning strike fire…” and I know because I went to these spots first hand…

        Sonny took me to this place in 2012-his old stomping areas–same time we went to pond in NM by Mule Creek…Sonny has ALOT of H IS T O R Y in NM—

        A photo posted by Patrick McCarty (@azelkhunter) on Jul 5, 2016 at 5:59am PDT

        Good morning! A photo posted by Patrick McCarty (@azelkhunter) on Jul 5, 2016 at 5:59am PDT

  34. Gary Olson says

    WTKTT said “And that’s what we have occurring with the ongoing YH Fire investigation regarding Leadership and Human Factors.”

    And I say, FYI, I got around just now to writing a couple of paragraphs specific to the Yarnell Hill Fire overhead team and Darrell Willis.

    http://www.ourfiregods.com/reserved4.html

    So…please click early and click often and please send this link to your friends and everyone else on your mailing list and ask them to do the same.

    • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

      From…
      http://www.ourfiregods.com/reserved4.html

      The cumulative decisions made by the Yarnell Hill Fire Overhead Team were staggering in their level of sheer incompetency and gross negligence.

      Which is EXACTLY what the investigators for the Arizona Department of Safety and Health ( who are professionals at investigating ‘workplace’ accidents and fatalities ) concluded… and they then made ‘history’ themselves by issuing the MAXIMUM citations and fines that they are even allowed to, by law.

      http://archive.azcentral.com/news/arizona/articles/20131203state-forestry-division-fined-willful-serious-violations.html

      Published: Thu Dec 5, 2013 12:47 AM
      ———————————————————————-
      Arizona forestry officials knowingly disregarded wildfire-planning rules, sent crews into hazardous areas without adequate safety provisions and then failed to withdraw 19 Granite Mountain Hotshots as the Yarnell Hill Fire raged toward them last summer, a state safety commission ruled Wednesday.

      Citing the Arizona State Forestry Division’s willful and serious safety violations during its handling of the fatal blaze, the Industrial Commission of Arizona unanimously issued $559,000 in fines and penalties. That includes $25,000 to each firefighter’s family or estate.

      The sanctions were based on a scathing report issued Wednesday by workplace-safety investigators, who found multiple infractions.

      The commission assessed a $70,000 fine against the Forestry Division, plus $25,000 per deceased firefighter, under that citation. The fine represents the maximum amount allowable for a “willful” violation. The term does not connote malicious intent, but reflects knowing negligence.
      ———————————————————————-

      Arizona Forestry might have been able to play enough ‘legal games’ to overwhelm family attorney Patrick McGroder and get him ( and the legitimate ‘wrongful death’ lawsuits ) ‘off the playing field’… but they can’t ‘erase’ the actual ADOSH report and its findings.

      The only we still do NOT know is the FULL length and breadth and full DETAILS of the ‘bad decision making’ that day which left 19 men dead on the floor of a fuel-filled blind box canyon.

      I believe ALL of those ‘details’ will ’emerge’, sooner or later.

      History has a way of making sure they DO, when it comes to ‘National Historic Tragedies’.

      • Robert the Second says

        Gary,

        On your website you posted: “Or as former Prescott Fire Department Wildlands Division Chief Darrell Willis has proclaimed, “It was just one of those things that happened. You can call it an accident. I just say that God had a different plan for that crew at this time”, and I call pure and unadulterated BULLSHIT on that entire concept! Even though I can sincerely say I believe in God just as much as wannabe [Pastor] Darrell Willis does. God wasn’t on the Godforsaken Yarnell Hill Fire, I believe the Great Creator was busy elsewhere on June 30, 2013, helping those who help themselves.”

        I have always agreed with Willis’ statement about God having a different plan for those men that day. Everything happens because God allows it.

        I’m going to take issue with a few of the other statements below.

        You posted: “God wasn’t on the Godforsaken Yarnell Hill Fire.” Sure He was on the YH Fire . God is Omnipresent, He is everywhere.

        Here’s a link from the website allaboutgod.com with many Bible verses verifying His Omnipresence. There are many others.

        http://www.allaboutgod.com/god-is-omnipresent-faq.htm

        You posted: “I believe the Great Creator was busy elsewhere on June 30, 2013, helping those who help themselves.” You are free to believe whatever you want to believe but that is nowhere at all in The Bible, God’s Word.

        The genesis of that statement ostensibly came out of Greek mythology in the fifth century before Jesus Christ. Various philosophers over the next two-and-a-half millennia repeated the unbiblical phrase. The most notable one in 1736, when Ben Franklin popularized it in Poor Richard’s Almanac, which basically ensured the statement a permanent place in American thought.

        • Robert the Second says

          Clarification to the above: “The Great Creator [God] was … helping those who help themselves.”

          You are free to believe what you want, however, the statement that God helps those who help themselves is nowhere in the Bible.

          The genesis of that statement ostensibly came out of Greek mythology in the fifth century before Jesus Christ. Various philosophers over the next two-and-a-half millennia repeated the unbiblical phrase. The most notable one in 1736, when Ben Franklin popularized it in Poor Richard’s Almanac, which basically ensured the statement a permanent place in American thought.

          • Gary Olson says

            You and I have had this discussion before (more or less) and even though we have far more in common than we do in differences…this is just one of those things we disagree on.

            As far as my quote goes…I had no idea where that came from and I did not mean to imply it came from the Bible.

            Thank you for reading my web page, I need the hits to make this page come up when people search for the key words. And for lots of reasons, I am trying to keep it relatively short and simple for those outsiders who may randomly click on it without getting into a lot of explanations or nuances.

            I think I summed it up very well when I told John Dougherty the following in his article you can read here,

            http://www.phoenixnewtimes.com/news/yarnell-hill-fire-the-granite-mountain-hotshots-never-shouldve-been-deployed-mounting-evidence-shows-6656696

            But…”The voice of what actually happened, we’ll never know,” Willis says. “We’re not going to have that information from [the dead men].”

            Willis continues, “It was just one of those things that happened. You can call it an accident. I just say that God had a different plan for that crew at this time.”

            Invocation of a spiritual cause for the hotshots’ deaths has triggered sharp criticism from former wildland firefighters interviewed for this story.

            “If you accept that this horrific catastrophe — unprecedented in the history of hotshots — is because God had a different plan for those 19 men, then you’re not going to go beyond God’s will for causal factors, and that means you’re going to leave the door open for this to happen again,” says Gary Olson, a former superintendent of Arizona’s Happy Jack Hotshots, founder of the Santa Fe Hotshots, and, later, a U.S. Bureau of Land Management criminal investigator.

            I interpreted what Willis way saying as a big cop out. “We will just never know because they are dead and that’s the way God wanted it.” That may not be what he meant, but that is what he said.

            “There is nothing to see here…move along. This just couldn’t be helped.” Which is what I am saying BULLSHIT to, not Willis’ belief in God or his interpretation of how God works in our daily lives.

  35. Gary Olson says

    Joy said, “I will catch up on my IM reading but boy—was floored by Gary’s new link—wow! man, harsh. I shook my head when I clicked on it—never expected that at all.”

    And I do keep editing it, so if you haven’t read it for awhile, please click on it again…and again.

    http://ourfiregods.com/reserved4.html

    And I say, Yes, it is harsh. But the question is…”Is it true?”

    And you say?

    • Joy A. Collura says

      Gary Olson says ”Is it true?”

      And you say?

      MY REPLY- first off it felt good to have my court case be replaced; the link is gone—

      http://ourfiregods.com/reserved1.html than I learned the organizational chart—
      YOU are above me and for that I will reply to you… 🙂

      First thought when I got to link was why was Dave’s pic used on such a topic? We hiked that guy and it seems undeserving to tie his artistic fire photo to that topic…you agree???— I know it was an AZCENTRAL pic …but let’s not give that paper any kind of royalties OR CREDIT OR FACE TIME— plus its an overused photo— so for that I think why that pic except it IS one of the top pics taken of the YHF- so I get that-

      Now the pic of the couple- again poor choice because if you have a beef with Marsh’s leadership but as you know I do not like to discuss private or public this topic because I learned long ago it is a sensitive topic that hurt others’ feelings…”my online actions”…SO I STAY OUT…

      I was almost not going to reply because it would mean I am either “enabling/engaging” as others told me “privately” but I would like you to break it down…starting with the title:
      The Big Lie.

      What is the BIG LIE?

      I TRULY THINK PEOPLE JUST HAVE DIVERSE PECEPTIONS ON THE YHF…

      like here I have been for years documenting the YHF but Denise Roggio asked me recently are you conspirator when I am just trying to get facts and documents to properly assess it…
      See
      different perception.
      My family and even Sonny wish I could walk 100% away from the fire because there is not a moment I am trying to think where else will a public document lead me to better clarity…

      I will in CAPS below break down your link content and try and figure out why I thought it was harsh in CAPS..I think it was like the title and photo upfront- you could do contracted title/photo work for Dougherty—

      Gary’s site said in quotes:

      “If you tell a lie big enough and keep repeating it,
      people will eventually come to believe it.”

      I DO NOT BELIEVE THAT. TRUTH WORKS IT WAY TO THE SURFACE, I THINK PAUSES OR DELAYS ALWAYS RED FLAGS ME…UNLESS AGING AND GETTING FORGETFUL…ALSO SOME QUESTIONS EVOKE IMMEDIATE REPLIES BUT SOME HAVE TO “THINK” HOW THEY HAVE TO PRESENT IT PUBLICLY…BUT IF YOU ASK “DETAIL/DIRECT” QUESTION AND THEY PAUSE THAN YOU HAVE TO WONDER…SO DELAYS NEED TO BE FOUND IF ITS APPROPRIATE FOR QUESTION AT HAND AND WHY I AM ANSWERING YOUR QUESTION AS SOON AS I SAW VS PASSING BY IT OR IGNORING IT…SOMEONE OF YOUR SOLID BACKGROUND ASKS ME A QUESTION LIKE THAT THAN YOU DESERVE MY REPLY…I WANT US TO BE CONNECTED AND NOT DISCONNECTED EVEN THOUGH YOU HIT A TOPIC I TRY TO STAY AWAY FROM…YOU DO REMEMBER I WAS IN A COURT ROOM WITH ONE OF THE PEOPLE FROM THAT SITE…AND I AM AT PEACE WITH IT NOWADAYS…THE BODY IS AMAZING THING…THIN OR NOT…YOU CAN NAB A LIAR WHEN YOU WATCH THEIR BODY MOVEMENTS AND SINCE YOU CANNOT SEE MY BODY MOVEMENTS I AM TELLING YOU I SHOOK MY HEAD THINKING…UGH WHEN I WENT TO THE LINK…AND BY ME DESCRIBING MY ACTIONS I HOPE YOU CAN SEE MY PURE HONESTY EVEN THOUGH YOU CANNOT SEE ME BUT IT IS FUNNY BECAUSE AS I FIRST SAW IT I THOUGHT OF HOLLY NEILL IN RECENT TIMES WHEN IN PERSON SHE SAID TO ME THAT MAYBE PEOPLE GOT THE NEGATIVITY/FEAR OF ME OR SONNY FROM MY VERY OWN PHOTO PAGES AND I THOUGHT THAT IS A “COP OUT” IN A SENSE BECAUSE REALITY IS THAT IS MY PRIVATE PAGE FOR FAMILY AND FRIENDS THAN SONNY TOLD JOANNA DODDER JOY HAS PHOTOS (SUMMER 2013) AND LINK WAS SHARED OVER TIME TO PEOPLE WHO WANTED TO VIEW PHOTOS TO GET A SENSE OF THE FIRE AND SUCH BUT WHY WOULD I OMIT MY OWN PRIVATE PICS JUST TO APPEASE THE WORLD—THAT “IS” WHO I AM —LET THE PEOPLE JUDGE IF THEY MUST; I DO NOT CARE—BUT TO JUDGE ME AS BEING SCARY OR FEARFUL BASED ON THAT PAGE—HORSESHIT—YOU WANT SCARY— I CAN INTRODUCE YOU TO ONE I WATCHED DO BAD STUFF AND WENT TO PRISON AND IS OUT ALREADY —A SERIAL KILLER—THAT PERSON IS SCARY BECAUSE SHE IS CHARISMATIC AND IS PROBABLY IN ONE OF YOUR CHURCHES NOW—AND YOU KNOW WHAT I HAVE BEEN CORRESPONDING WITH ONE OF SONNY’S EX-WIVE’S KIDS AND IT HELPED ME ALOT BECAUSE THAT WAS 20-30 YEARS AGO THAT MARRIAGE SO IT HELPED ME REALIZE SONNY IS WHO HE IS AND I AM DIFFERENT THAN HIM BUT THAT DOES NOT EQUAL NEGATIVISM JUST DIFFERENCES AND THAT IS `100% OKAY SO THAN I BEGAN TO SEE YOUR LINK AS NOT A NEGATIVE AND I THOUGHT ARE YOU TRYING TO BRAINWASH YOURSELF JOY TO “BELIEVE” A BELIEF AND I SAY NO—GARY WOULD NEVER PLACE OUT SOMETHING SO HEAVY UNLESS HE WAS LIKE BOB HAS SAID BEFORE “OFF HIS MEDS” OR HE SERIOUSLY SEES THE ENTIRE PACKAGE…SO FOR THAT I WILL TAKE THE TIME AND READ THE LINK FULLY–K. WHERE BEFORE I SAW PIC AND TITLE AND BLINDED MY EYES WITH MY RIGHT HAND AND QUICKLY CLICKED OFF THERE…

      Joseph Goebbels, Reich Ministry of Public Enlightenment and Propaganda

      Is the truth about what happened to the Granite Mountain Hotshots on the Yarnell Hill Fire important? YES…BEEN TRYING FOR YEARS GARY

      To me it is ME TOO

      and I have appointed myself as an
      advocate and spokesperson for our dead 19 Granite Mountain Hotshots, which includes Eric Marsh. I HAVE JUST TRIED TO GATHER DOCUMENTED INFORMATION TO MAKE SENSE OF IT ALL— BUT I AM NOT A SPOKESPERSON BUT BEEN KNOWN TO BE OUTSPOKEN…IT SHOULD OF BEEN A PRIORITY BUT IT WAS NOT TO MANY I FELT IT SHOULD OF BEEN…

      Why? Because as Edmund Burke said, “Those who
      don’t know history are doomed to repeat it.” VERY TRUE GARY….BUT IN MY LIFETIME I AM WATCHING MORE AND MORE MAKING THEIR “OWN” HISTORY…WHICH DOES NOT EQUAL REAL TIME REALITY.

      This is much worse than simply failing to learn the lessons of wildland firefighting history because it guarantees the same tragedy will happen again, VERY TRUE.

      again…and again. TRUE. TRUE.

      Why am I so sure it will happen again? BECAUSE IT HAS BEEN FOR DECADES IF YOU LOOK AT OLD FIRES AND THIS ONE…NO CHANGES HAVE BEEN PROPERLY MADE BECAUSE INSTEAD OF LAYING IT ON THE LINE PURELY WE SEE MORE BRUSHING IT UNDER RUGS THAT NOW LOOKS LIKE HILLS HOW MUCH WAS BRUSHED UNDER THE RUG—OK MOUNTAINS NOT HILLS…

      Because the horrible deaths of the Granite Mountain Hotshots on the Yarnell Hill Fire is actually
      the third time in history the very same thing has happened to hotshot crews in the very same way for very similar reasons. There was the El Cariso
      Hotshots on the Loop Fire of 1966, the Mormon Lake Hotshots on the Battlement Creek Fire of 1976 and now…the Granite Mountain Hotshots on the
      Yarnell Hill Fire of 2013. Once is an anomaly, twice is a coincidence and three times is a pattern. The deaths of the Prineville Hotshots on the South
      Canyon Fire of 1994 were an outlier compared to all other hotshot deaths on the three previously mentioned disaster fires.
      AMEN!

      And although there have been dozens of disaster wildfires that have killed many hundreds of wildland firefighters, I am a student of only the Loop, the
      Battlement Creek, the South Canyon and now the Yarnell Hill because those are the only wildfires that killed hotshots, TRUE, WHEN I LISTENED TO JIM ROTH AND HIS STORY OF LOSING HIS BROTHER ON STORM KING—“HOW MANY YEARS AGO WAS THAT??”…
      Storm King Mountain™ (STORMKINGMTN . COM) IS HIS SITE…I ENJOYED THAT COUPLE ALOT…AND ONE OF THE TOP FOLKS HOLLY NEILL INTRODUCED ME TOO SUMMER 2014. TOP NOTCH FOLKS.

      which is all I ever was (on the fire
      line) or wanted to be. Not all wildland firefighting hand crews are designated as elite Type 1A hotshot crews..

      .the best of the best. And in fact, only a very
      small percentage qualify for this rating which included the Granite Mountain Interagency Hotshot Crew. I HAVE MET ALOT OF FIREFIGHTERS SINCE 6-28-13 AND I HAVE TO STATE YOU ARE SPOT ON THERE…

      The circumstances and the conditions surrounding the hotshot deaths on these other fires were nowhere near as shocking as those on the Yarnell Hill
      Fire for too many reasons to discuss in this format. AGREED.

      The inexplicable decisions made by Marsh on the Yarnell Hill Fire have left the wildland firefighting
      community dumbfounded and turned upside down.
      SO TO DATE- WHAT ARE THE RESOURCES AND SOURCES OF “DOCUMENTED” DECISIONS MARSH MADE ON 6-30-13 AND NOT BASING IT ON PRIOR THINKING OR PRIOR FIRES OR LISTENING TO JUST THE DOCUMENTED FACTS ON 6-30-13 WHAT ARE THESE DECISIONS HE MADE PERSONALLY AND SOLELY HIMSELF?

      We know exactly why all other hotshots died, but even after all of this time has passed, wildland
      firefighters are still searching for some logical explanation to understand why Marsh killed his crew other than…sometimes bad things happen to good
      people. AGAIN…WHEN THERE IS SO MANY THAT WERE “ON THE FIRE” STATING TO ME THE HIKER THEY NUMBER ONE DID NOT EVEN KNOW MARSH WAS TRANSITIONED TO A NEW POSITION THAT DAY AND THEY ALL WERE FLOORED MYSTERIOUSLY HOW COME THEY WERE STILL IN THERE…WHAT KEPT THEM IN THERE THAT LONG AND AT LOCATION THEY WERE AT,,,SO THERE IS MISSING DETAILS THAT PEOPLE ON THE FIRE COULD HELP BRING CLARITY…VERSUS BASING IT SOLELY ON IT HAD TO BE HIM BECAUSE HE WAS “IN CHARGE” BECAUSE TOO MANY DID NOT EVEN KNOW HE WAS—WHAT I SAW FROM MARSH WAS A MOUNTAIN SCOUT ASSESSING AREAS OF THE WEAVERS LIKE A SUPER FAST SPEED OF A RABBIT…BUT I WOULD LIKE TO SEE THE DOCUMENTED AREAS NOT SOME HIGHER UPS LATER STATING THIS OR THAT OR THEY WOULD NOT JUST SIT THERE BEING FIREFIGHTERS AND GO RE-ENGAGE ???? FACTS. WHAT ARE THE STUFF THAT IS ACTUALLY PUBLIC THAT PLACES MARSH AS THAT SOLE PERSON WHO DID THAT VERSUS RTS SAYING MARSH WAS IN CHARGE…HOW DOES THAT WORK…VERBALLY…DOES MARSH SIGN A PAPER STATING HE TOOK OVER AS DIV Z??? WHERE IS IT AT THE “MOMENT” ON 6-30-13 THAT HAS SOME PHYSICAL DOCUMENT MARSH WAS OFFICIALLY TRANSITIONED TO A NEW ROLE AND STEED THAN BECAME THE BOSS BECAUSE I HEARD BY WAY TOO MANY THAT WHOLE TIME WAS CHAOTIC FROM YCSO DEPUTY STATING THAT TO FIREFIGHTERS TO DISPATCHERS—SO DURING CHAOS—PURE CHAOS WHERE IS THIS DOCUMENT THAT MARSH REALLY TRANSITIONED…

      That explanation is unacceptable and is all the Serious Accident Investigation Team concluded in their Serious Accident Investigation Report, THEY FOLLOWED A DIFFERENT GUIDELINE AND IN IT THEY TOOK FACTS TO FORMULATE THEIR CONCLUSIONS BUT INDEED A NARRATIVE—

      which reads like what it is…poorly written bureaucratic contradictory, deceptive, and disingenuous doublespeak. Or as former Prescott Fire Department
      Wildlands Division Chief Darrell Willis has proclaimed, “God had a different plan for those men.” NO, GOD DID NOT HAVE ANOTHER PLAN…GOD HAS ONE PLAN AND THAT IS THE TRUTH WILL PREVAIL…

      So sayeth I, Gary L. Olson, former U.S. Forest Service wildland firefighter (Prescott National Forest) hotshot crew b
      oss (Happy Jack Interagency Hotshots, Coconino National Forest), hotshot crew founder YOU HAD TO KNOW FRED THEN— HE HAS BEEN IN THAT AREA LONG TIME…DID YOU SEE ANOTHER ALOT ON THE JOB?

      and crew boss (Santa Fe Interagency Hotshots, Santa Fe Nation
      al Forest), YOU SHOULD BE THERE ON THE MOVIE SET—SEEMS LIKE THEY ARE IN YOUR HOMETOWN…
      Assistant District Fire Management Officer (Tesuque & Espanola Ranger Districts, Santa National Forest), Santa Fe National Forest Dispa
      tcher, Zone Interagency Fire Operations Center Coordinator, Coconino County (Arizona) WHAT DECADE?

      Deputy Sheriff, Santa Fe National Forest Chief Law Enforc
      ement Officer and retired Supervisory Criminal Investigator and Senior Special Agent (BLM New Mexico State Office, BLM Arizona State Office & USDI –
      BLM Washington D.C. Office of Law Enforcement and Security (1974 – 2006, Prescott, AZ, Flagstaff AZ, Santa Fe, NM, Phoenix,
      AZ, Albuquerque, NM, Farmington, NM, Phoenix, AZ).WOW…LIKE I SAID SOMEONE WITH THOSE CREDENTIALS- IT DOES FLOOR ME HOW THE CHIEF BEN PALM DENIED YOU ACCESS BECAUSE I WAS TOLD BY STATE THAT THEY TAKE FIREFIGHTERS OUT THERE CURRENT AND RETIRED…SO STRANGE TO SEE THAT GARY…

      God Bless America! YOU BET!

      OKAY NOW THAT I READ IT ALL AND REPLIED…I STILL THINK CONTENT IS OKAY AND IT WAS TITLE AND PHOTOS THAT THREW ME OFF BUT SO RELIEVED THE COURT CASE RECORDINGS ARE HIDDEN BECAUSE A CONTRACTED CRIMINAL INVESTIGATOR WE RECENTLY HIKED WAS GOING TO YOUR SITE AND I WAS LIKE UGH SO NOW HE CANNOT SEE THEM 🙂

      • Joy A. Collura says

        CAPS below my reply:

        On June 30, 2013, Eric Marsh ordered his crew,I HAVE HEARD THIS TOPIC FROM ALOT—EVEN PEOPLE OF THE HIGHEST QUALIFICATIONS TO ASSESS IT BUT I STILL THINK I SEE NO SUPPORTING INFORMATION FOR ME TO SOLIDIFY MY VIEW THERE TO AGREE OR NOT AGREE—

        the Granite Mountain Interagency Hotshots to their deaths on the
        Yarnell Hill Fire in Arizona over the repeated objections of his assistant crew boss, Captain Jesse Steed who was
        burned alive with 17 crewmen under his command because he ultimately followed Marsh’s orders.AGAIN I HAVE HEARD PEOPLE STATING THIS EVEN TO THE POINT A DR. TED PUTNAM WOULD NOT MIND BEING SUBPOENA ON THE THIS TOPIC SO THERE MUST BE SOME PRIVATE NOT YET SURFACED INFORMATION ON THIS TOPIC—

        Eric Marsh’s inexcusable behavior resulted in arguablySTILL AWAITING THE DOCUMENTS TO BACK UP FOR THIS DAY 6-30-13 THIS HAPPENED—

        the single worst loss of life of wildland firefighters (19) on a
        fire in history and almost doubled the total number hotshots killed on all other wildfires (24) in the line of duty since
        hotshot crews were first created by the U.S. Forest Service in southern California in 1946 – 1947. IT WAS THE SINGLE WORST LOSS OF LIFE AND IT SHOULD OF NEVER HAD TO HAPPEN—

        What happened on the Yarnell Hill Fire was unimaginable…SO TRUE.

        right up to the minute it became our reality and was the
        single biggest blunder in wildland firefighting history that shook us to our very core.
        Marsh’s blatant disregard for
        almost all of the safety rules I LEARNED THAT FROM RTS AND BOB AND I UNDERSTAND IT NOW FULLY…. and guidelines SAME HERE…that were developed to keep wildland firefighters safe at the cost of
        countless lives over more than 100 years in the United States were catastrophic and can’t be overstated. Marsh’s
        reckless actions were completely off all of the known disaster fire charts and graphs and caused everyone to
        recalibrate their own Disaster Fire O’Meters by redefining the very term itself.BUT AGAIN I SAW MARSH AWAY FROM THE MEN SO HOW MUCH DIRECT INVOLVEMENT DID MARSH HAVE FOR THE FINAL HOURS…WHO WAS INDIRECTLY SPEAKING TO BOTH MEN AND REALLY THE CORE OF IT ALL…WHAT IF IT WAS A GOOD DIRECTION ONE THOUGHT HE GAVE BUT IT WAS MISINTERPRETED ??? WHAT IF HE LATER MET UP — THERE IS TOO MANY GAPS TO FILL IN BEFORE IT CAN BE PROPERLY ASSESSED…

        Unfortunately, “The Big Lie” is being perpetuated by the 100 Club of Arizona and the Eric Marsh Foundation for
        Wildland Firefighters. I HAVE HEARD FROM GMHS LOVED ONES NOT THE BEST STUFF ON THE 100 CLUB OF ARIZONA SO I DO NOT KNOW THEIR AREA “YET”…I MIGHT FOCUS THERE AND DO SOME FOIAS THERE…BUT AS FOR THE EM FOUNDATION…I THINK IT IS SAFE TO ASSUME SHE WANTS HER HUSBAND TO BE REMEMBERED FOR THE POSITIVES NOT ANYTHING NEAR TO ANYTHING ELSE AND AS I SPEAK TO CERTAIN ACTORS—IT IS THE GENERAL ASSUMPTION THERE TOO THAT THE MOVIE IS A TRIBUTE—TO CAPTURE THE GOOD FROM THIS TRAGEDY…

        Please contact them and ask them to stop telling lies about what happened on the Yarnell Hill
        Fire to the Granite Mountain Interagency Hotshot Crew. WHERE DID THEY STATE LIES? HELP ME UNDERSTAND.

        The lives of more wildland firefighters are at risk (.) PERIOD PLACED HERE. THERE WILL BE MORE IF THE ONES RUNNING IT DO NOT GET IT IS TIME FOR CHANGES…ALL THAT MONEY WENT TO BUILD A MEMORIAL THAT SOON ENOUGH BE GROWN IN AND DENSE AGAIN AND I WILL BE ON THE TRAILS AND RARELY SEE ANYONE TRAVERSE THRU THE THICK DENSE AREAS LIKE US…

        because of
        their lies and irresponsible behavior. I HAVE NOT SEEN ANY- OR HEARD ANY BUT I DID HEAR SOME DID NOT LIKE THE WAY THE 100 CLUB OF ARIZONA RAN IT—

          • Joy A. Collura says

            you are welcome 🙂

            I did reply mainly because I hate to see the high quality work of David sitting on a page like that —

            the rest was just added bonus or SKIM/PASS OVER

      • Gary Olson says

        What decade was I a deputy sheriff? I was a reserve deputy sheriff while going to college at NAU 1974-1976 (kind of like a work study program to get a foot in the door), and a full time regular deputy for 1 year in 1977-1978.

        I worked for Sheriff Joe Richards, who was without a doubt one of the biggest assholes who ever ran a sheriffs department in Arizona…which has world class assholes as sheriffs in general, see….Sheriff Joe Arpaio in particular.

        I graduated as the “Outstanding Cadet” from the interagency police training academy. You can see me getting my award from Sheriff Joe Richards himself in my other “I love me video” here with all of my other videos..

        https://www.youtube.com/user/DeadEndPSA

        My signature “I love me video” is called “Let the Day Begin” and has a really bitchin’ soundtrack…as do all of my videos.

        • Joy A. Collura says

          my father worked for Sheriff Joe Arpaio and he adored the man and to hear the behind the scene stories I feel a book or movie can be written—but probably be like watching the September 2017 flick due out…Hollywood has a way of screwing up purity—

          My dad was a Leo so he liked the assholes of the world…seems he attracted that too…but he died and I have a trunk full of his sheriff goodies I don’t think I should be seeing or having—seems personal…

          Now I see why YOU are above me…I watched video…I loved that organizational chart—wish I could pull that off…it looks sweet

                • Gary Olson says

                  Well…I keep hoping someone will bite (other than you and a very few others…no offense) at my book ideas, but so far…no dice.

              • Gary Olson says

                Yes…those photos were taken while I was on a counter drug operation on the Mexican border in Arizona. I was driving across a back country area responding to where some sensors going off and I drove into that hole, which was embarrassing because I had to be winched out of it .

            • Gary Olson says

              Those photos were taken behind the BLM Field Office in Farmington NM, which is where I was working on 9/11.

              That was an oil and gas inspector who dressed up like an Islamic Terrorist after 9/11 and they wanted some photos of me arresting him. I went along with the gag but never really understood the point of it.

              Farmington was really on the radar screen at that time because all of the western U.S. natural gas supply is controlled from there and lots of other oil and gas infrastructure was and still is…susceptible to terrorist attacks in that area.

          • Gary Olson says

            Thank you Joy , but the organizational chart was drawn up as a gag for the Santa Fe National Forest management team and was specific to the Santa Fe Hotshots because I was known as the “other kind” of crew boss when compared to Fred.

            I was kind of a top down manager, but as I keep saying, that is how I was taught to do it and the way I think everyone except Fred and Bob did it and they still do it. So…they are the odd men out…not me.

            • Joy A. Collura says

              after talking to Woody recently I think he was seeing it happen as the seventies came into the eighties and he really described the people he was accustom to; YOU than the new type…the college educated nerds who talked about diseased insects versus what he said if they harvested and rid of trees properly than maybe the bugs would not hit an infestation level of killing so many…so maybe there is a POINT in hands on folks like YOU vs the ones fresh lick out of college…if you have 65-70 trees per acre less chance of that disease problem to become a real problem vs 700 trees per acre than yeah maybe you will see like in that video of tall toothpick many many trees dead due to insects..

        • Gary Olson says

          You can also see photos in the same video from when I was selected to be the U.S. Department of Interior liaison to President Bill Clinton’s personal Secret Service Security Detail when he visited the Grand Canyon with Vice President Al Gore to sign the proclamation making the Grand Staircase Escalante into a national monument which was highly controversial at the time.

          I was the only USDI employee who rode in the presidential motorcade that day and everyone lining the roads waved and cheered as I rode over to the El Tovar Lodge from the Tusayan airport where Air Force One landed and I met the president.

          I almost flattened Robert Redford that day when he stepped out of a car right in front of me as I was barreling through a parking lot with the other two members of the USSS liaison detail, a senior Secret Service Special Agent and a Coconino County Sheriff’s Office detective.

          No one was there that evening to wave goodbye to me when I left however… which was really a big let down after an otherwise really big day. Just another little stroll down memory lane.

  36. Gary Olson says

    Of course if I were a selfish thoughtless person and I owned horses and most if not all of my friends owned horses, or I knew people who had horsed my friends and family could borrow, I wouldn’t give a fuck if it were a long, steep hike up the backside of the Weaver Mountains to get to the PUBLIC state park either.

    ONE reason I am so pissed off? Because of the growths in my throat and the damage to my airway and diminished lung capacity (whenever I get a new doctor, they have a hard time believing me when I say I have never smoked) and ruptured disks in my back…I am never going to be able to visit the deployment site now and pay my respects to OUR crew because Chief “Money Shot” Ben D’over fucked me.

    I thought there was an “Americans With Disabilities Act of 1990” that said you have to make parks accessible to all Americans or at least try and make reasonable accommodations for all Americans. I am going to have to research that act, maybe I can get the ACLU to represent me in a lawsuit against Arizonastan? I am pretty sure I am hot the only one who will never get to visit the Granite Mountain Hotshot State Park.

    I would really like to see Amanda Marsh under oath in a civil lawsuit describing in detail ALL of the efforts she made to find a way to make HER park accessible to people like me.

    • Gary Olson says

      Well…that didn’t take very long.

      “The Americans with Disabilities Act of 1990[1][2] (ADA) is a wide-ranging civil rights law that is intended to protect against discrimination based on disability. Enacted by the U.S. Congress in 1990, it affords similar protections against discrimination to Americans with disabilities as the Civil Rights Act of 1964,[3] which made discrimination based on race, religion, sex, national origin, and other characteristics illegal. In addition, unlike the Civil Rights Act, the ADA also requires covered employers to provide reasonable accommodations to employees with disabilities, and imposes accessibility requirements on public accommodations.”

      A reasonable accommodation is an adjustment made in a system to accommodate or make fair the same system for an individual based on a proven need. Accommodations can be religious, academic, or employment related and are often mandated by law. Each country has its own system of reasonable accommodations. The United Nations use this term in the Convention on the Rights of Persons with Disabilities, saying refusal to make accommodation results in discrimination. It defines a ‘reasonable accommodation’ as:

      “Reasonable accommodation” means necessary and appropriate modification and adjustments not imposing a disproportionate or undue burden, where needed in a particular case, to ensure to persons with disabilities the enjoyment or exercise on an equal basis with others of all human rights and fundamental freedoms;”

      So the question remains. Exactly WHAT did Amanda Marsh do to follow this law. Maybe I should personally SUE her? She was acting as an “agent” of the state. Did she have “indemnity” in her quasi official capacity…or is she civilly liable for her actions or lack thereof?

      Inquiring minds want to know?

      • Gary Olson says

        Or will Amanda Marsh get Representative Quid Quo Pro Fann to get with her buddy Tobin and pass a law that the ADA doesn’t apply in Arizonastan? I have always tried my very best to be a good friend…or a bad enemy.

      • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

        At the very meeting when this entire ‘design’ for the State Park was ‘approved’ with an 8-2 vote… this ‘Board’ also ( only then ) realized that they SHOULD have always been requiring all the ‘polling’ of the ‘wishes of the family members’ that Amanda Marsh SAID she had been doing to have been more ‘formalized’ and ‘documented’.

        From the minutes of that September 8, 2015 meeting…

        “A recommendation was given that all future correspondence to the families are formalized.”

        Whoops. A little LATE.

        If they had realized earlier there was a good chance that Amanda Marsh had NOT been ‘polling ALL the family members’ at all while she was ‘representing’ them ( ALL of them ) on this ‘Board’… things might have turned out a lot different.

        It still remains astounding that the 2 DISSENTING votes against this ‘design’ came from the only two representatives on the Board who were there to represent the ACTUAL ‘Wildland Firefighting Community’… and THEIR ‘wishes’.

        Arizona State Forester Jeff Whitney
        and former Prescott Fire Chief and Wildland Division Chief Darrell Willis.

        So the HEADLINES should have always actually been…

        “Design for Arizona State Park honoring Wildland Firefighters forges ahead despite REJECTION by representatives of the Wildland Firefighting Community itself”

        It still remains to be seen how they are going to pull off the ‘dedication’… now pushed back 5 months from original announced date of June 30, 2016 to the new scheduled date of November 30, 2016.

        VERY FEW of the ‘family members’ and ‘dignitaries’ who will basically be REQUIRED to be at this ‘dedication’ will EVER be able to do this ‘hike’ at all.

        Not to mention the media that everyone will ( of course ) WANT to be there to ‘cover it all’.

        So they are STILL going to have to plan and arrange some EASY ACCESS out to the deployment site come November just to get this damn thing ‘dedicated’ and ‘open’.

        That’s probably what the next FOUR meetings will be about.

        How to plan the ‘dedication’ since there’s no way in hell the ‘access’ they decided on is going to be adequate for doing the ‘dedication’ itself.

        Unless, of course, they just blow that off as well and decide to just have the ‘ribbon cutting ceremony’ ( or whatever the heck they are going to do ) down there in Karen Fann’s brother’s 3/4 of a MILLION dollar ‘parking lot’… with no bathroom facilities. ( Bring in some port-a-potties just for the event? Dunno ).

        And the whole world just gets to see the dedication of a ‘parking lot’?

        As far as ‘easy’ access goes… it certainly still doesn’t meet the requirements of the ADA legislation… but anyone who wants to go out there WITHOUT doing this stupid 3 mile hike just to get to the ‘ridge’ and look DOWN can STILL just drive down Baker Lane in Glen Ilah, pull of the side of the road ( there’s nothing there )… and you are now less than 1/2 mile and less than 1,000 yards from the southeast corner of the ‘Arizona State Park’.

        The hike to the ‘park boundary’ from THERE is also mostly on level ground and through existing ‘trails’. These are the remnants of the old ROAD that USED to go all the way to the deployment site back when that exact location was some kind of ‘mining camp’.

          • Joy A. Collura says

            Gary Olson says
            JULY 9, 2016 AT 4:12 PM

            But are you trespassing if you go this route?

            the route WWTKTT described Gary if you parked near the locked gate on Foothills near the retired fire chief Truman Ferrell and real estate man Dorman Olson/Hovans/Bogart/Baker you will pass a no trespassing sign and on barker lane dirt path you would be walking on investment property of Nu-Hart llc and curve pass Owens/Silvia than leading to “open” land owned by Minch/731 Corp and then heading to the overgrown area where old burro trail is which is 731 corp land bordering Helm’s…than you will be on state land 800-20-057 then you reach restricted areas of 800-25-001E state land…keep in mind there is no proper fencing or signing in ANY of this area and under Arizona state law cannot be enforced for NO TRESPASSING….

            • Joy A. Collura says

              yet do not put it pass the cronies to make a trespassing charge happen just because they have the power to play that game-

              • Gary Olson says

                That is exactly what I am afraid of. I think if I get the authorities in Arizonaistan a shot at me, they will probably take it. So…

        • Joy A. Collura says

          wwtktt said-Not to mention the media that everyone will ( of course ) WANT to be there to ‘cover it all’.

          MY REPLY- the media that asked we showed them short cuts—
          they all know the legal ways—

        • Joy A. Collura says

          wwtktt said:As far as ‘easy’ access goes… it certainly still doesn’t meet the requirements of the ADA legislation… but anyone who wants to go out there WITHOUT doing this stupid 3 mile hike just to get to the ‘ridge’ and look DOWN can STILL just drive down Baker Lane in Glen Ilah, pull of the side of the road ( there’s nothing there )… and you are now less than 1/2 mile and less than 1,000 yards from the southeast corner of the ‘Arizona State Park’.

          or they can park at Sonny’s- but Barker Lane is a “locked” gate access and not an actual road just a dirt path that is on Nu-hart llc that leads to the lone ocotillo trail of the old cloudcroft amendment and Barker Lane by Foothill is near retired fire chief so I would not recommend it and Barker Lane runs into boulders and then a residential home of Cliff and Shirley who lost their home in the YHF so really park at Sonny’s—

  37. WantsToKnowTheTruth says

    Reply to Joy A. Collura post on July 7, 2016 at 8:03 pm

    >> Joy A. Collura said…
    >>
    >> Oh and by the way Woody called and talked to State Park long
    >> ago because Woody and Rex did not have a problem of allowing
    >> them to build parking lots on their land.
    >>
    >> Interesting also that he felt that it would be a faster way to deployment
    >> site so it could be used as an educational tool.
    >>
    >> So the media stated that wrong because it came straight from him and
    >> he brought it up.
    >>
    >> The memorial park as it is will be a bad thing.

    It has always been an absolute ‘mystery’ how the ‘Access Sub-Committee’ for this ‘Yarnell Hill Memorial Site Board’ just seemed to ‘give up’ on even TRYING to work things out with Rex Maughan and Woody and the other property owners to come up with a ‘good’ plan for ‘access’ to the new Arizona State Park.

    You are right. There is nothing in the minutes of the ‘meetings’ for this Board that indicates Rex Maughan was ever absolutely REFUSING to ‘work with the Board’.

    He was concerned about ‘splitting’ his property into weird parcels… but the minutes from the meetings themselves say that he was willing to continue working with the ‘Board’ to ‘work something out’… and the ‘minutes’ even say that Arizona Senator Pierce was supposed to keep ‘negotiating’ with the property owners. ( Rex, Woddy, etc. ).

    Then… suddenly… from just one meeting of the Board to the next ( sometime between the February 27, 2015 and April 10, 2015 meetings ) is when Yarnell Fire Chief Ben Palm went out and ‘hiked’ the area that has now become the ‘trailhead’… and first presented HIS idea of doing a ‘hiking trail’ in from the south, across State Trust Land at that April 10, 2015 meeting.

    Even at THAT April 10, meeting… the ‘minutes’ say that Arizona Senator Pierce was STILL supposed to ‘keep taking’ to Rex Maughan and the other property owners.

    But by the time the NEXT meeting took place ( on May 29, 2015 )… the ‘trailhead’ up from Highway 89 is now being referred to in the meeting minutes as the ONLY way for the public to ever access the site… and they never mentioned even TRYING to obtain better access ever again.

    But nowhere in ANY of the minutes was there ever a VOTE about this ‘access plan’, or even a MOTION to just ‘give up’ on trying to work out ‘better access’ with the landowners.

    Chief Ben Palm just ‘presents’ his ‘hiking trail from Highway 89’ idea at one meeting… and the very next meeting it is being called a ‘done deal’… with no VOTE about it.

    Very strange.

    I don’t think ANYONE is actually ‘happy’ with the convoluted, arduous ‘hiking trail’ that this Yarnell Memorial Board came up with as the ONLY way to access the new State Park.

    The $768,000 that State Representative and Yarnell Hill Memorial Site Board member Karen Fann’s BOTHER then received for just building the stupid 13 car ‘parking lot’ down on Highway 89 is actually FAR more money than the parcels of land around Yarnell that are adjacent to the State Park ( and would have provided ‘easy’ access to the Park ) are even WORTH.

    ** THE PDF FILE USED AT THE LAST MEMORIAL BOARD MEETING

    This ‘Yarnell Hill Memorial Site Board’ finally just got around to publishing the PDF ‘Presentation’ file that they prepared for the last June 22, 2016 meeting.

    Here is the official Arizona State Parks website where all the ‘agendas’ and ‘meeting meetings’ of the ‘Yarnell Hill Memorial Site Board’ are required ( by Arizona Open Meeting laws ) to be published…

    http://azstateparks.com/committees/Yarnell.html

    And here is a link to the actual ‘PDF Presentation’ that was used at the recent June 22, 2016 meeting, which the PUBLIC only previously got a ‘glimpse’ of via the TV cameras that were there covering that meeting…

    http://azstateparks.com/committees/downloads/YHMSB_Presentation06-22-16.pdf

    In the PDF document itself…

    PDF page 6: Development Timeline
    Says the 18 car parking lot ( Cost: $768,000+ ) was completed June 16, 2016.

    PFF page 8: Photo of completed Parking Lot.
    There are only 13 parking spaces for cars and and a small area for 5 motorcycles.

    PDF page 9: A ‘Google maps’ slide showing the main 2.85 mile hiking trail up from the parking lot to the ‘Observation Deck’… which we can now see is actually located right around the spot on the upper ridge where Granite Mountain ‘left the two track’ and descended into the blind box canyon.

    The ‘Google Map’ shows the planned location(s) along the 2.85 mile hiking trail for all 19 of the ‘bio plaques’ for each of the deceased Granite Mountain Hotshots.

    The very first one you come across after leaving the parking lot will be the ‘bio plaque’ for Eric Marsh. The next one ( about one hundred yards later ), is supposed to be the one for Jesse Steed.

    The rest of the ‘bio plaques’ follow, spaced evenly along the hiking trail. The LAST ‘two’ before reaching the ‘Observation Deck’ will be the ones for Grant McKee, and then ( lastly ) Sean Misner.

    PDF page 12: Closeup photos of one of the natural-rock ‘Stairs’ that was built on one of the steeper parts of the 2.85 mile main hiking trail.

    PDF page 18: Artist’s rendering of the ‘lobster cage’ baskets ( gabions ) that will be ‘encircling’ the actual deployment site. The rendering does NOT show the ‘BOULDERS and CHAINS’ that would eventually be installed BETWEEN the ‘baskets’… as per the wishes of Amanda Marsh and ( supposedly ) some small subset of other ( still unknown ) ‘family members’.

    PDF page 22: A photo of the actual ‘lobster cages’ ( gabions ) installed at the deployment site and now fall filled with rocks. The ‘BOULDERS and CHAINS’ that Amanda Marsh wanted have also now been fully installed in-between the rock-filled ‘baskets’.

    NOTE: The whole current ‘blocked off’ design for the deployment site ( including the ‘lobster cages’ and the BOULDERS and CHAINS ) passed by an 8-2 vote… but the two people who voted AGAINST this entire idea were the Arizona State Forester himself ( Jeff Whitney ) and the former Prescott Wildland Division Chief ( Darrell Willis ). This 8-2 vote was all about Amanda Marsh ( and some small subset of other unknown family members? ) just ‘getting their way’ with regards to what the actual deployment site access was to be at this new Arizona State Park.

    PDF page 27: The ‘Future Development’ slide which shows what the additional $229,000 dollars will be used for.

    PDF page 38: Close-up photo of the metal sign installed at the bottom of the metal stairway down at the parking lot which says…

    NO TRESPASSING.
    Granite Mountain Hotshots Memorial State Park
    Is Not Yet Open to the Public.
    Please DO NOT ENTER.
    Expected Open Date: Fall 2016

    PDF page 40 ( of 40 )
    Suggested time/date for FOUR more ‘planned’ meetings of this Yarnell Hill Memorial Site Advisory Board, before the Board automatically expires at the end of this year.. including the planned ‘Opening day’ for the park now pushed all the way out from original planned dedication on June 30, 2016 to November 30, 2016…

    – August 17, 2016 – 1 pm.
    – October 19, 2016 – 1 pm.
    – November 23, 2016 – 1 pm.
    – November 30, 2016 – GRAND OPENING!

    • Gary Olson says

      Do you want me to take an educated guess why the access to the park was handled like it was? Rhetorical question…of course you do.

      Amanda Marsh and her unknown subset of families, who certainly include her henchpeople (and you know who you are) never did want anyone to have ANY access to the deployment site or the park in general. If you can’t keep everyone out period…what is the next best thing?

      Yes…you are correct, make it as difficult as possible for everyone else to get there while they (the special people) make off-the-record arrangements for themselves with landowners to gain easy access because they will play on people’s emotions and guilt that they DESERVE special access because they are special people.

      So…everything is going to Amanda Marsh’s Master Plan for her to get everything she wanted in the first place except they don’t even have to spend any of the millions of dollars that were donated to them by the public to get their way,…they get to use public dollars in addition to the thirteen or fourteen MILLION dollars they already got.

      And as a bonus…Karen Fann’s brother (and so did she as a kickback) got a butt load of money to built a parking lot no one will ever use except to pull over long enough to throw out beer bottles and dirty diapers because that is what the public does at those kind of places.

  38. Joy A. Collura says

    So this loved one I mentioned he did not even know about the $43,000 donation October 2013 that was to directly go to the
    spouses, children and fiancés of the 19 fallen firefighters and to the surviving member of Crew 7.
    I never hear anything new about this again—
    like has anyone used the $43,000 from the group to further educate themselves—

    alot of money went out to this tragedy so cannot imagine APS donating to finish a memorial project that should of been designed much different and is a problem in the waiting with future unknown rescues and such—- when it is the improper burn out operation that burned their APS poles just recently—screwed up world—-

    see in article:

    Yavapai College honors the brave men of Granite Mountain Hotshots Crew 7 by establishing the Granite Mountain
    Hotshots Scholarship fund for the purpose of providing financial assistance for postsecondary education to the
    spouses, children and fiancés of the 19 fallen firefighters and to the surviving member of Crew 7.

    http://www.elks.org/SharedElksOrg/lodges/files/2350_December2013Newsletter.pdf

    • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

      The Corral Newsletter
      Coolidge-Florence Elks Lodge #2350
      Florence, Arizona
      Published: December, 2013

      http://www.elks.org/SharedElksOrg/lodges/files/2350_December2013Newsletter.pdf

      From PDF page 9 ( of 11 page )…
      ——————————————————————————————-
      Yavapai College Foundation
      Granite Mountain Hotshots Scholarship

      SCHOLARSHIP CHARTER

      The thirty identified beneficiaries of the scholarship fund will include the 15 children (one yet unborn), 13 spouses of the fallen Prescott Granite Mountain Hotshots and the one surviving Hotshot crew member.

      For beneficiaries enrolling at Yavapai College, the fund will provide scholarships for up to two years toward the costs of tuition and fees, books, supplies, and room and board.

      For beneficiaries pursuing postsecondary education or training at an institution other than Yavapai College, the fund will provide scholarships for up to two years, in an amount equivalent to the Yavapai College scholarship.

      Over time, should the scholarship fund grow large enough, Yavapai College Foundation may be able to offer scholarship assistance for up to two additional years for beneficiaries pursuing a degree, certificate or vocational education.

      After all beneficiary scholarship obligations have been met, any money remaining in the fund will be used to provide scholarships for students in the Yavapai College fire science, or closely related program.

      PHOTO: Arizona Elks Lodge Members holding a large, printed CHECK for $43,000 made out to the ‘Yavapai College Foundation Granite Mountain Firefighters Fund’.
      ———————————————————————————————–

  39. Joy A. Collura says

    So when Pat McCarty went structural in 2010 and now an actor —did Clayton fill his shoes as squad boss at that time?

    http://www.prescott-az.gov/_d/agendas/2010-05-25_2613_min.pdf

    and in that link I noted Mando–he was continuing to grow within the GMHS and why would he go from a high position to than doing garbage?

    I hiked him,,,Sonny felt he was a foreigner from another country as I saw his quietness as a blessing not knowing WHO he was or even if he was hiddenly planted there or not but he seem to just BE there as we hiked the Weather Channel and I thought it was a good thing—

    I wonder if Mando gets an aka actor spot too like Pat—

    sometimes I feel “ahhh” one step closer to walk away from it all (yhf) than I bump into someone and lately it has been on my hikes or walks or the doctor’s waiting room as they are the ones that bring it up—like meeting a loved one as they expressed their take on last Yarnell fire in ugh disbelief as they went on their ugh on first fire and I not knowing they lost someone in the 6-30 fire stated I hope the pure nature of 6-30-13 surfaces but until then I just have stance missing elements and it should of never happened and hope for the truth to prevail—and then bam- they explain their loss—so then I am like there must be a select group that of the loved ones choose not to like me from the get go because I did not walk away or my style of me but when I keep meeting loved ones of the GMHS and homeowners—I then keep looking….because these our God-guided moments where I am being shown these folks & one was in Scottsdale and one was in Wickenburg—nowhere near the town of Prescott—