Please begin Yarnell Hill Fire Chapter XXIII here

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Chapter I, Chapter II, Chapter II supplement, Chapter III, Chapter IV, Chapter V, Chapter VI, Chapter VII, Chapter VIII , Chapter IX,  Chapter X, Chapter XI, Chapter XII , Chapter XIII, Chapter XIV,  Chapter XV,  Chapter XVI, Chapter XVII, Chapter XVIII, Chapter XIX, Chapter XX, Chapter XXI and Chapter XXII.

© Copyright 2016 John Dougherty, All rights Reserved. Written For: Investigative MEDIA

Comments

  1. Charlie says

    joy is tough goes up the hill with sonny. See I do not like to talk but joy is there and in the know. Sorry to say but Marsh and Steed dd kill the men they had supervision over. World facts and we yet do not know who prodded Marsh. Steed and Marsh are not heroes they did the wrong thing even knowing that. It is like a nervous cop killing a citizen.

  2. WantsToKnowTheTruth says

    **
    ** AIR ATTACK RORY COLLINS ‘CONFIRMED’ ( TO THE SAIT ) THAT
    ** HE TOLD THOMAS FRENCH AND JOHN BURFIEND IN ‘BRAVO 33’
    ** TO TURN THEIR ATTENTION TO YARNELL AT 3:50 PM.

    Reply to Diane Lomas post on September 13, 2016 at 3:55 pm

    >> Diane Lomas said…
    >>
    >> I have a question relating to air attack on the Yarnell Hill fire:
    >>
    >> Did saving private and commercial landholdings for timber
    >> play into air attack’s decision to remain in the Peeple’s Valley
    >> area dropping retardant for 40 extra minutes on June 30,2013
    >> when they had been directed to fly to Yarnell?

    Well… I don’t believe ANY of the ‘land’ in that area qualified as ‘timber holdings’.

    At best… it would have only qualified as ‘grazing land’, if anything… and by the time the fireline was near the ‘Model Creek’ area and ‘Hays Ranch Road’… the only ‘property’ being threatened was PRIVATE property ( Maughan Ranch land ) and PRIVATE residences ( Model Creek and Peeples Valley ).

    That being said… there is NO evidence that I know of that has surfaced to support a theory that, after Thomas French and John Burfiend ( in aircraft known as ‘Bravo 33’ that day ) were TOLD at 3:50 PM by the current ‘Air Attack’ to switch the *focus* of Air Support to the Yarnell side of the fire… that anyone on the ground then ‘over-rode’ that ‘directive’ and insisted that ‘Air Support’ STAY focused on the NORTH side of the fire.

    It would still appear that it was simply Thomas French and/or John Burfiend, in ‘Bravo 33’ who decided ( themselves ), once the previous ‘Air Attack’ Rory Collins left the area at 3:58 PM, to stay *focused* on what they had been doing up there on the NORTH end, even though the obvious ‘immediate threat’ was now on the Yarnell side of the fire… and even though they had TOLD Rory Collins ( at 3:50 PM ) that they were switching their focus to Yarnell and were (quote) “headed that way”.

    There are also no ‘radio captures’ in the current evidence record which show that anyone else on the ground was purposely ‘diverting’ French and Burfiend from doing what they had said they would do at 3:50 PM.

    But there is also ( supposedly ) no FULL recording of the ‘Air To Ground’ channel in this timeframe.

    The Eric Panebaker AFUE ( Aerial Firefighting Use and Effectiveness ) Study Group that was there in Yarnell appears to have been ONLY doing a contiguous recording of the ‘Air To Air’ radio channel… even though ‘specifications’ for the AFUE Study itself say that BOTH the ‘Air To Air’ AND the ‘Air To Ground’ channels are supposed to be recorded at each Incident ‘studied’.

    If the Panebaker AFUE Study Group really did make a contiguous recording of the ‘Air to Ground’ channel similar to the one they DID make for the ‘Air To Air’ channel… that ‘Air To Ground’ radio channel recording has still never seen the light of day.

    There is also the ‘mysterious’ Dan Sullivan.

    Dan Sullivan was ‘ordered up’ via ROSS at 9:34 AM on the morning of Sunday, June 30, 2013 to be a ground-based ‘Air Support Group Supervisor’ ( ASGS ) for the Yarnell Hill Fire that day.

    Dan Sullivan was ‘based’ in ‘Prescott’. His ‘order number’ was O-30, and both that ‘resource order’ and testimony from other individuals places ASGS Dan Sullivan ARRIVING in Yarnell that Sunday around 10:30 AM… about 1 hour after he was ‘ordered up’ via the ‘Prescott Dispatch Center’.

    Someone named Brad Zettler was ALSO ‘ordered up’ as an ASGS for Yarnell the night BEFORE, at 10:49 PM on Saturday, June 29, 2013. His ‘order number’ was O-16.2. He was already there in Yarnell before Dan Sullivan arrived. Brad Zettler WAS interviewed by ADOSH, and in that interview he said he arrived in Yarnell as early as 7:30 AM on Sunday, June 30, 2013.

    But Zettler then became basically just the HEB1 ( Helibase Manager ) for the Yarnell Hill Fire… and remained ‘HEB1’ for the rest of the day just dealing with ‘Helicopters’ and the location of the ‘Helibase’ for Yarnell operations.

    Brad Zettler CONFIRMED ( to ADOSH ) that this ‘other’ ASGS named Dan Sullivan HAD arrived in Yarnell circa 10:30 AM or so… but the only thing Brad Zettler says this Dan Sullivan person did that day was to help him ( Zettler ) locate a better ‘Helispot’ for the Helciopters than the one that was in use on the north side of Hays Ranch Road.

    Don Glassgow, the manager of the ‘Maughan Rances’ was offering the use of a small airstrip on the ‘Maughan Ranch’ property… and Zettler says Dan Sullivan agreed to go ‘check it out’. But Sullivan reported back that he didn’t like that airstrip as a better alternative to just using the ‘crop circles’ there on the north side of Hays Ranch Road.

    But that is ALL we know about what ASGS ‘Dan Sullivan’ ever did that day in Yarnell.

    Yarnell ‘Air Support Group Supervisor’ ( ASGS ) Dan Sullivan was ( apparently ) NEVER ‘interviewed’ by ANYONE.

    We KNOW he was there all day… because Glen Ilah resident Bryan Smith has confirmed that it was Dan Sullivan himself who ‘rescued’ him and his 84 year-old-cousin Pearl Moore ( Rest In Peace ) later that afternoon, circa 4:45 PM, on the streets of Glen Ilah. It was NOT ‘Gary Cordes’, as was originally reported by ‘The Arizona Republic’ ( AZCENTRAL ).

    Dan Sullivan remained ‘on the clock’ as an ASGS for the rest of the day… but there is no evidence ( or testimony ) that he was actually interacting with the ‘Air Support’ over Yarnell at all at any time that day, or whether HE, himself, might have been, somehow, ‘assigning any priorities’ for the ‘Air Support’ at any time that day. Maybe he did. Maybe not.

    ** SEVEN DAYS

    In just SEVEN days, on September 21, 2016, ‘Oral Arguments’ will finally be heard in the appeal regarding the consolidated ‘Yarnell Property Damage’ lawsuits.

    If the decision of the lower court judge ( Maricopa County judge Richard Gama ) to not even let these lawsuits ‘have their day in court’ is overturned by the appeals court… then the lawsuits are once again clear to head to a TRIAL.

    If there is no ‘settlement’ of ALL of the 165+ consolidated lawsuits known as “ACRI et al. v. STATE et al”… then the resulting TRIAL will most assuredly FOCUS on this whole ‘Air Support’ issue… for the ENTIRE three days of the Yarnell Fire leading up to the disaster and the fatalities on Sunday.

    If that happens… it’s probably worth pointing out that not only will ASGS Dan Sullivan most likely be called to the ‘witness stand’ and will have to ( finally ) swear to “tell the WHOLE truth” and reveal everything he did ( or didn’t ) do that day…

    …the whole ‘story’ about WHY the ‘Air Support’ never arrived over Yarnell in the later afternoon will also become a ‘focus’ of the trial itself.

    And, as it happens, not only do we have the ‘radio capture’ of Air Attack Rory Collins TELLING ‘Bravo 33’ ( Thomas French and John Burfiend ) to ‘switch their focus’ to Yarnell at exactly 3:50 PM that day… and French telling Collins he would do exactly that and was “headed that way”…

    …there is ALSO actual ‘testimony’ from Air Attack Rory Collins himself saying that is EXACTLY what he had TOLD Thomas French and John Burfiend ( Bravo 33 ) to do.

    ADOSH was never ‘allowed’ to interview Air Attack Rory Collins… but Mike Dudley and Jim Karels of the Arizona Forestry contracted SAIT investigation team WERE.

    And in the now-public ‘Interview Notes’ from that SAIT interview with Air Attack Rory Collins… CONFIRMED what the radio captures themselves tell us.

    That he DID, in fact, TELL ‘Bravo 33’ ( Thomas French and John Burfiend ) to immediately switch the ‘focus’ of the Air Support to the Yarnell side of the fire at 3:50 PM, on Sunday, June 30, 2013.

    But even though Thomas French ‘acknowledged’ that ‘order’ and told Collins he was “headed that way” ( at 3:50 PM )… Thomas French and John Burfiend ended up doing no such thing. They stayed ‘focused’ on no-longer-high-priority projects on the NORTH side of the fire until it was too late to make any difference with ‘Air Support’ down on the Yarnell / Glen Ilah side of the fire.

    ( Continued Next Reply )

    • Charlie says

      No timber to speak of here, pinon does not qualify, and the toothpick trees for lumber were not valuable–something about the trees in the vicinity–if you should make them into lumber, it would be brittle and easily rotted. Arizona timber in this area is very dangerous if you put loads on it. Be that as it is, like the Yahoos that brag about their efforts at saving Yarnell.

      Now here is something to contemplate. You hike up a trail and the first thing to meet is a sign with Eric Marsh name on it. Holy shit, the man killed 18 under him and now he is the first on the trail. Then Jessie Steed who did finally listen to Eric is next. Good lord, let us define heroes.

      Heroes do not kill their crews because they wanted to prove themselves. Saving a structure or attempting to save a structure does not define you as a hero no more than saving a burning car by shooting a fire extinguisher makes you a hero. But to attempt to save a structure at the expense of 18 lives should not even qualify you to be posted on that trail up to see where the men that obeyed your strict orders daily died. Believing in your bull shit and its enormous cost of lives, II do say disqualifies you as a hero. See in this world, make believe does not work. The facts are there and 17 young souls are dead because of Marsh, Steed and whoever else involved caused the fire to escalate and whoever caused the men to try to protect the Helms Ranch.

      Do it right, tell the truth and be done with it. Trying to make heroes out of men that killed their crew will only cost future wild land fire fighter lives. Honesty always works out for the best.

      • Charlie says

        Now some are going to say, Sonny, what the hell does he know. Well go read RTS, Provencio, John Daugherty, Gary Olson, Dr. Ted Putnam, Woodsman, WTKTT, Norb, Ben, Charlie Mosely, CIA, and I could add 50 more reputable wild land fire fighters and citizen investigators that know my statements are facts. A shame that reputations are coming before lives yet you have the best and elite among knowledgeable men in the wild fire fighting professions telling the truth of why these GMHS did die.

  3. Gary Olson says

    Well…I made it back from my two week vacation down in the dunes…I think. That is to say I think I was gone for two weeks, not that I think I am back…I know I am back. Although not only is it a little hard for me to keep track of time (Is this a…what day is this?) but it is a little hard for me to keep track of when my vacations start and when they stop.

    Yes…I never grow tired of rubbing it in to you bread winners out there in cyber world…the good news is that you are still relevant, the bad news is that you are still relevant.

    I stay in a camp ground while I am down there without any television or internet unless I go use the Wi-Fi at their office, which I don’t generally do. So it is going to take me a while to catch up on what has been going on here on the blog to see if I have anything constructive to add or even if I have something that isn’t constructive to add, because that is what I do.

    In the meantime…I have a rhetorical question for you, who are indeed my closest friends and confidants. Do you think Trouble looks for me wherever I go and sometimes finds me; or do you think I look for trouble wherever I go and sometimes find it?

    http://oregondunes.com/1BadJeepers.html

    I would especially like my good friend from Canada (Rocksteady) to watch this video. God Bless the Canadian people who are some of our best friends and closest allies!

  4. WantsToKnowTheTruth says

    **
    ** THAT’S A WRAP?

    They may have a few more misc scenes to film over there in New Mexico, but the actor that was hired to play ‘Eric Marsh’ ( Josh Brolin ) in this ‘Granite Mountain’ fillum thing is now saying ‘Goodbye’ to the project…

    From actor Josh Brolin’s PUBLIC Instagram page…

    https://www.instagram.com/p/BJvp0QfgUID/

    ————————————————————–
    Comment from: joshbrolin – 12 hours ago.

    Bye New Mexico. Thank you for an amazing four months!
    ————————————————————–

    • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

      So whatever ‘decisions’ these filmmakers were REQUIRED to make about what THEY think actually ‘happened’ have already been made and that footage is now “in the can”.

      All that remains to be seen is what THEY decided THEY think ‘happened’… and based on what evidence.

      This is also one of those movies that needs one of those “And then THIS is what happened” INFO boxes appearing at the end.

      I wonder if, right before the credits roll, their ‘And then THIS is what happened’ box will say something like…

      —————————————————————–
      An Arizona Forestry contracted SAIR investigation found that no one did anything wrong in Yarnell, despite the fact that 19 supposedly elite firefighters burned to death in that Arizona Forestry workplace… but Arizona’s own Department of Occupational Safety and Health, legally responsible for investigating fatal workplace accidents, levied historic citations and FINES against Arizona Forestry and found that extreme incompetence and negligence on the part of supervisors working the Yarnell Hill Fire contributed to the ‘entrapment’ and ‘deaths’ in that Arizona Forestry workplace.
      —————————————————————-

      OR… maybe their ‘INFO BOX’ at the end of the film and before the credits roll will just say….

      —————————————————————-
      You may now reach under your seat and remove the plastic American flag that has been pre-placed there and please wave it vigorously on your way out of the Theatre.
      —————————————————————-

      OR… something ‘in-between’ those two options?

  5. Bob Powers says

    After a lot of thought I am at a loss as to what WTKTT is calling or identifying who is the
    NEW HYBRID FIRE FIGHTERS
    Dose the Identification actually encompass all the City, County and State Fire Fighters or has there been a separation of different Cities, Counties and States ?
    It seems that they are all being lumped together which is a show of ignorance about Wild Land Fire Fighters through out the Country.
    Gary’s —Rise of the Hybrid Fire Fighters seems to have taken a new twist by WTKTT and now Woodsman’s references which are slightly different..

    Let me be clear — there are many wild land fire organizations out there that are Highly Qualified outside the Federal Agencies.
    The West has many of these State and County Organizations that are not Hybrid. Some but not all City and Rural Fire departments have qualified Wild land Fire Fighters.

    In the Federal Agencies you have to work your way up thru the Fire Organization with Training Assignments and S-Courses before you fill positions in the ICS system. That includes reviews from the Districts to the Supervisors Office, Regional Office to NIFC reviews on Type 1 and Type 2 positions.

    The States answer to each Region their State is in and the City’s and County’s answer to each State.
    So there may be some holes in the process but to class all in one Category is as I have said before ASININE.

    HYBRID is a term which has no boundaries or it is a situation where some Fire Fighters are being upgraded with out full qualifications and used outside their units. That is not Happening on every Fire. and probably less than 5% of the time.

    Some of you are assuming that many of these units are not fully trained or Qualified, that my friends is Wrong.

  6. WantsToKnowTheTruth says

    **
    ** FATIGUED BIA WILDLAND FIREFIGHTER CHARGED WITH
    ** HOMICIDE IN THE DEATHS OF TWO OF HIS CREWMATES

    The deaths took place just this last Saturday. Charges have been filed.

    FOX 9
    Article Title: Charges: Driver fell asleep in crash that
    killed 2 Michigan ( Wildland ) Firefighters
    Published: Aug 29 2016 04:40PM CDT
    Updated:Aug 29 2016 06:07PM CDT
    http://www.fox9.com/news/197080901-story

    From that article…
    —————————————————————————–
    BLAINE, Minn. (KMSP) – A Michigan ( wildland ) firefighter is being charged with criminal vehicular homicide in connection with the crash that killed two of his fellow firefighters and injured several others on Interstate 35W in Blaine, Minn. Saturday, August 27, 2016.

    The firefighters were on their way to the Box Canyon Fire in Utah.

    The crash took place at approximately 3:00 p.m. near the intersection of I-35W and 95th Avenue in Blaine. The truck carrying the firefighters drifted off the right shoulder, struck the median cable barriers and rolled.

    The driver, identified as Michael Allen Johnson, 28, of Baraga, Mich. told police he believed he fell asleep behind the wheel and woke up to one of the passengers yelling at him as the truck veered off the road.

    Johnson said he attempted to gain control of the vehicle, but it crashed into the median barrier.

    Johnson told police he had been awake for nearly 28 hours when the crash occurred. He also admitted to smoking marijuana that morning and doing cocaine two days earlier.

    Law enforcement officials say Johnson appeared impaired and was acting combative at the scene of the accident.

    23-year-old James “Kimmy” Shelifoe Jr. and 25-year-old Alan “AJ” Swartz, both of Baraga, were killed in the crash. The other five passengers were taken to local hospitals, but all are expected to recover.

    The crew was part of a three-vehicle convoy traveling from Michigan’s Upper Peninsula to Utah to help fight the Box Canyon Fire. The firefighters were members of the Beartown Firefighting Crew in Baraga, Mich., according to the Keweenaw Bay Indian Community ( KBIC ).

    The Beartown Firefighting Crew is a Type 2 hand crew co-sponsored by the KBIC and
    the Federal Bureau of Indian Affairs ( BIA ).

    The Keweeknaw Bay Indian Community says the deceased firefighters will return home to Michigan on Tuesday. They will depart Minneapolis at 6:30 a.m. and are expected to arrive in Baraga later that day.

    Johnson is charged with two counts of criminal vehicular homicide for gross negligence. He will make his first court appearance in Anoka County on Tuesday morning.
    —————————————————————————–

    Rest in peace… James “Kimmy” Shelifoe Jr. and Alan “AJ” Swartz.

    So… it looks like if you are in a position of ‘authority’ on a Wildland Crew and you are so exhausted that your judgement and ability to perform your job and make ‘safe’ decisions is impaired… and that impairment results in the DEATH of others who you are responsible for… you really CAN ( should / will ) be charged with ‘Homicide’.

    Also… ( Lesson to Learn? )… time for better DRUG TESTING of ALL Wildland Firefighters?

    • Joy A. Collura says

      It is pretty cool how life rolls…or rocks….and how unbelievable it is how we are all universally connected and as I have my foias in for personal clarity and spent gobs of funds and blm is to drop their fee to me tomorrow I took step back today and packed my hiking stuff and said goodbye to Sonny and he looked at me like maybe I was not serious and yet I closed my eyes and opened my heart. Done and time to….He looked at me and said “no just drained.” I have had extreme flank pain and I do not know how I have hiked this month or did my cardio exercises and as my eyes closed it was IN that moment I learned something about me. I known my husband since the 80s and as we had our elite crowd out for dinner we spent a moment with my husband than headed to the man cave and the whole time I think of my fire aftermath journey and I am trying to figure WHO is the best in the world fire behavior analyst that is NOT currently wrapped in contracted work with anyone and maybe send me their bid to spend time with me for three full 8 hour business days signing a confidentiality contract reviewing all I have on the fire before I do podcast phase…can you name any. World, I am NOT a conspiracy theorist…I see myself who jumbles thoughts and do not think them through at times before oral or written delivery…that I publicly and privately advocate for pure unredacted knowledge not what some feed out..the stuff that does not show…thank you to the people recently in my life because I know I am not alone and we are on right track….just have to ensure all details are properly thoroughly done but good to know where I am right now is just the start of what’s to come…Thank you…

      Gary…thank you and wwtktt for everything lately and the shadowed people too…thank you. The shadowed people saw me ill…they saw it was tough but I just put one foot in front of the other and eventually the day was over and the size of my edema on lower extremities especially left foot…Whoah…please locals as well as loved ones of the men keep the faith…be better not bitter as one gmhs family member tries to share…September 21 is only one part that will be historical…man….ufc is on so good night…

      Oh and Sonny thanks alot of people but I am grateful for Diane’s contribution lately…

        • Joy A. Collura says

          Do you all know what I love about Bob Powers…he gets a label for this and that yet he knows who he is and remains here…he also will get justice as well as Jim Roth and so many other fallen…when the truth happens it will not be YHF…it will be BETTER and most healing and I mean MOST healing for Bob Powers and always World be assured I never keep fire information on any cell or pc or at his cabin or my home…at no time do we carry the details on us but we know the RIGHT Folks have it. I told you a few years back I figured this out but such a relief God led us to an entity that can physically support all and I mean all we ever sajd about our times on both fires. Some try to sway or say are you sure or mar me purity wise…I am happy. One couple said I hope you are financially taken care of when this is all done. When I was a kid I did odd jobs for folks for free and I have never changed…nothing odder than trailing with my hiking pal Sonny and this recent visit the guy was to spend a little time here but he stayed alot longer stating anyone who wants to know the fire need to spend the time with us and my first thought when he said it was not anyone because I know Jerry P. came and I really never thought that family of all would have a disconnect from us…someone had to be in their ears. I dreamnt of Donut last night….he was just thinking like hey for my life history give me some slack…I got a daughter…Im one of the grunts…we like time and half days as much as the big shots like making billions…

          For morality and humanity I stay with this…

          When i was throwing up on tbe trail all the men thought…oh no…that was jt…end of hike…but kept plotting on..throw up intense than one foot in front of the other so it can be done with bad health too and so Bob me staying at it js not just for the locals and 19..it js for you too…truth will be..and dont change because gary or wwtktt say what they do because the details would not shock gary but he would ponder his thoughts maybe before speaking…which i do think gary does…again world when the time arrives I want no monies…we all hit the same dirt in the end so thats enough for me and God has my plans…

        • Joy A. Collura says

          I like your smile Diane…

          keep that kind of energy up.

          I do not know where you came from but you ask the right questions…and I like that.

          I passed directly to 100 people and 22 on doors or car windshields or bulletin boards the flyer to go to the appeals case—I cannot tell you HOW MANY are in serious NEED right now or poor health…it is sad and it hurts me to listen to some who are like me that are not pharmaceutical folks now has a drug store- I also mailed one day 80 people locally than next day 5 more so I have now alerted about the case since I do not do social media I did my part to let people know if they are disabled or need a ride—how to make sure to get them there. Over 200 people KNOW about it IN PERSON…let’s keep the word fresh and going…3 weeks away-

    • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

      Followup…

      Minnesota does NOT have the “death penalty”… but they do have LWOP ( Life Without Parole ) for ‘murder’ convictions.

      So Wildland Firefighter Michael Allen Johnson of the BIA Type 2 “Beartown” crew cannot be sentenced to death for killing his crewmates.

      Minnesota abolished the death penalty way back in 1911 after a botched hanging.

      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Williams_%28murderer%29
      —————————————————————————–
      On 13 February 1906, Williams was to be executed in the basement of the Ramsey County Jail in Saint Paul. Unfortunately, the rope that was being used to hang him proved to be too long. When Williams hit the floor after dropping through the trap door of the gallows, three police officers had to hold his body up by the rope for over 14 minutes, until he finally died of strangulation.

      Williams’s botched execution was used by opponents of the death penalty in Minnesota to argue that capital punishment should be abolished in the state. Minnesota abolished the death penalty in 1911, and since then it has never been reinstated.
      ——————————————————————————

        • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

          Followup…

          Apparently ALL THREE of these convoyed ‘vehicles’ belonging to this BIA Type 2 “Beartown” Wildland Firefighting crew were HAULING ASS and breaking the speed limit ( big time ) at the time of the fatal accident.

          From the ‘criminal complaint’…
          —————————————————————
          Statements were obtained from various witnesses traveling on Highway 35W at the time of the crash.

          One witness described driving southbound on Highway 35W and seeing the three fire truck vehicles approaching him at a high rate of speed.

          The witness moved to the right lane of traffic to allow the vehicles to passhim.

          The witness estimated the vehicles to be traveling approximately 80 to 90 mph in a 70 mph zone.

          After the third vehicle passed, the witness observed the third vehicle swerve into the right lane of traffic approximately three times. The vehicle then swerved again traveling across the lane of traffic onto the right side of the roadway.

          The vehicle attempted to correct itself but traveled back across the highway ultimately crashing into the barrier on the left.

          The box separated from the cab and rolled several times.

          Another witness described contacting 911 before the crash out of concern of the driving conduct of the vehicle.

          This witness called 911 back after observing the crash and provided consistent details regarding the accident.
          —————————————————————-

    • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

      **
      ** OTHER ‘BEARTOWN’ WILDLAND FIREFIGHTERS ARRESTED
      ** AFTER THE FATAL ACCIDENT?

      A very strange ‘video’ has been posted ( publicly ) to YouTube.

      It shows an entire Crew Carrier full of “Beartown” Wildland Firefighters with ‘zip ties’ on their wrists and forced to sit on the ground behind their “Beartown” Crew Carrier… in a gas station parking lot… with police everywhere.

      The person who shot this video says she took it shortly AFTER the ‘fatal accident’ where two of the “Beartown” BIA Type 2 crewmembers had been killed on August 27, near Blaine, Minnesota.

      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XwIzI2F2xXA&app=desktop

      From the ‘description’ supplied for this video…
      ————————————————————————————-
      Posted to YouTube by: Lily Blessed
      Bear Town (Michigan) Firefighters being detained in Bloomington Minnesota….. No idea why.

      Published on Aug 27, 2016

      I visited SA on 98th and Old Shakopee Road Yesterday and came upon this scene. I decided to record because it just looked so odd….. 9 firefighters with zip ties on their wrists sitting next to their truck. This morning, I found an article saying that earlier they were in an accident in Minnesota, and 2 of their crew members were sadly killed. But, this truck does not look damaged at all…. Very confusing.
      ————————————————————————————-

      ‘Old Shakopee Road’ is right outside of Bloomington, Minnesota and not that far from where the fatal accident took place.

      This might be a case where the other ‘Beartown’ Crew Carrier that was NOT involved in the fatal accident was allowed to go on its way… but as soon as he police learned that the driver of the Crew Carrier that rolled over and killed those two ‘Beartown’ firefighters was admitting to ‘drug use’… an APB might have gone out to STOP the ‘other’ ‘Beartown’ Crew Carrier and ‘detain’ the rest of the crew for questioning.

      Whatever is going on here ( in this video )… there is no question that it’s one of these BIA Wildland Type 2 “Beartown” Crew Carriers and all the firefighters have been ‘zip-tied’ and told to sit on the ground.

      • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

        In the ‘comments’ section for the video above ( which has already been viewed THOUSANDS of times now )… the woman who posted it verifies that she took HER video around 6 PM… about 3 hours AFTER the fatal accident involving the OTHER “Beartown” Crew Carrier.

        Her ‘comment’ also now suggests the police WERE ‘looking for drugs’ in the possession of that other half of the BIA Type 2 “Beartown” Crew.

        —————————————————————————-
        Comment by: Lily Blessed
        What I don’t understand is why this happened…… The accident was shortly after 3pm, I took this video a little after 6pm. I don’t know what they would all be placed in zip ties….. The police were also going through something on the trunk of their squad car, wearing purple rubber gloves. Very odd scene. Then, finding out about the accident today….. Made me very confused!

        —————————————————————————-

        • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

          And now there is THIS ‘weird’ comment being left on that video of the BIA Type 2 “Beartown” Wildland Crew all ‘zip-tied’ outside their carrier.

          This person seems to be claiming they were THERE, and part of the ‘crew’… and that the reason they were all ‘zip-tied’ is because the police didn’t know that the crew did not know they had lost 2 of their own yet… and the police were worried they all might get ‘aggressive’… or something.

          ——————————————————————
          Comment by: Jesse Ekdahl
          Just to clear the air, this is the 2nd crew along with the lead truck. In the defense of the crew and the police officers, the firefighters were restrained because the police didn’t know the crew didn’t know that lives were taken. The police were worried that we would act in aggression’.

          ——————————————————————

          WTF?

          It is still MUCH more likely that the police now had PCRTB ( Probably Cause Reason to Believe ) that there were DRUGS onboard that other BIA Type 2 “Beartown” Crew Carrier… and that is why they stopped it ( and zip-tied the crew ). To SEARCH the carrier… AND the Crew.

          • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

            Followup…

            It’s also ‘not credible’ that upwards of 3 hours had gone by… and this other BIA Type 2 “Beartown” Wildland Crew Carrier and its occupants would not have already been aware of both the accident and the fatalities with the ‘other’ Crew Carrier’ ( Since they were all in a convoy and were all HAULING ASS when the accident took place ).

      • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

        **
        ** SECOND VIDEO SHOWING ‘ZIP-TIED’ BEARTOWN WFFs…

        Here is ANOTHER video which shows those BIA Type 2 “Beartown” Wildland Firefighters all ‘zip-tied’ and being forced to sit on a curb outside their Crew Carrier while being ‘questioned’ by police.

        From TV station WCCO – CBS – Minnesota.
        PUBLIC Video Title: Driver Charged In Crash That Killed 2 Firefighters
        https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YsR4eoY_tgU

        At +1:27 into this video is ‘new’ video footage of those ‘zip-tied’ Wildland Firefighters and the narrations covering that video footage says…

        ————————————————————————–
        Two hours AFTER the crash… a SECOND “Beartown” truck carrying nine more
        firefighters was stopped in Bloomington, their hands restrained behind their backs.
        They sat along a curb, individually questioned, and let on their way.

        ————————————————————————–

        It depicts the same scene as the other video posted above…

        https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XwIzI2F2xXA&app=desktop

        So ( according to station WCCO ), while these other BIA Type 2 “Beartown” Wildland Firefighters WERE detained, zip-tied, and questioned by police… none of them were ‘arrested’.

        IANAL ( I Am Not A Lawyer )… but since when are the police actually ALLOWED to handcuff ( zip-tie ) people ( anyone ) and DETAIN THEM on the side of the road… without actually CHARGING them with anything first?

        If that is now LEGAL… then we ALL need to ‘wake up and start paying attention’.

        • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

          ** WILDLAND FIREFIGHTER MICHAEL ALLEN JOHNSON
          ** WAS DENIED AN ATTORNEY, AFTER REQUESTING ONE

          This whole thing just gets ‘weirder’ by the minute.

          BIA ‘Beartown’ Type 2 crewmember Michael Allen Johnson was ‘arraigned’
          this morning ( in Minnesota ) on those TWO charges of ‘vehicular HOMICIDE’.

          But the ‘Associated Press’ is now reporting that he ( Johnson ) was
          DENIED AN ATTORNEY during this ‘arraignment’.

          The San Diego Union-Tribune ( Associated Press Article )
          Bodies of 2 firefighters returning to Michigan
          Published: 12:07 p.m. Aug. 30, 2016 – By The Associated Press
          http://www.sandiegouniontribune.com/news/2016/aug/30/bodies-of-2-firefighters-returning-to-michigan/

          ———————————————————————-
          MINNEAPOLIS (AP) — The bodies of two firefighters killed in a crash on a Minnesota interstate are being returned to their home state of Michigan.

          A procession of vehicles left a south Minneapolis funeral home early Tuesday. Firefighters from Minnesota’s Fire Service Foundation were escorting the bodies of James Shelifoe Jr. and Alan Swartz back to the Keweenaw Bay Indian Community, where they served as Beartown firefighters based in Baraga on Michigan’s Upper Peninsula.

          Seven other firefighters were hurt when their truck crashed Saturday on Interstate 35W in the Minneapolis suburb of Blaine. They include Michael Johnson, the firefighter behind the wheel of the truck. Johnson has been charged with two felony counts of criminal vehicular homicide. Unconditional bail was set at $250,000, and his request for a public defender was denied Tuesday.
          ———————————————————————-

          “Unconditional bail was set at $250,000, and HIS REQUEST for a public defender was DENIED.”

          Between this and the ‘detained’ and ‘zip-tied’ firefighters on the side of the road ( without even charging them with anything )… someone wanna tell me what the fuck is going in Minnesota?

          Did Minnestoa ‘secede from the United States’ recently and the people so obssessed with just waiting to record the next stupid thing out of Donald Trump’s mouth just ‘missed it’?

          Just in case anyone has forgotten… here are your ‘Miranda Rights’ as guaranteed
          by the 5th and 6th ammendments to the US Constitution…

          ————————————————————————-
          “You have the right to remain silent. Anything you say can and will be used against you in a court of law. You have the RIGHT to an ATTORNEY. If you cannot afford an attorney, one will be PROVIDED for you.”
          ————————————————————————-

          And also just in case anyone has forgotten… here are your ‘6th ammendment’ rights
          as guaranteed by the US Constitution since 1789… including the ‘right to legal
          counsel’ ( even if you can’t afford one )…

          ————————————————————————-
          “In all criminal prosecutions, the accused shall enjoy the right to a speedy and public trial, by an impartial jury of the State and district wherein the crime shall have been committed, which district shall have been previously ascertained by law, and to be informed of the nature and cause of the accusation; to be confronted with the witnesses against him; to have compulsory process for obtaining witnesses in his favor, and to have the Assistance of Counsel for his defence.
          ————————————————————————-

          In all criminal prosecutions, the accused shall enjoy the right… to have the Assistance of Counsel for his defence.”

          • Bob Powers says

            You haven’t been in Court Much Have You??????
            Arraignments are to notify you of the charges and notify you of your rights to Trial and Defense. Must be done within 48 Hours.

            For a judge to Appoint a Public Defender there has to be proof of Income
            And ability to secure a private Attorney.

            This Person has a job and income so he must show cause that he can not afford an Attorney then one will be appointed.

            • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

              Reply to Bob Powers post on August 31, 2016 at 7:11 am

              >> Bob Powers said…
              >>
              >> You haven’t been in Court Much Have You??????

              You’d be surprised.

              >> Bob Powers said…
              >>
              >> Arraignments are to notify you of the charges and
              >> notify you of your rights to Trial and Defense.

              AND you have a RIGHT to have legal counsel present at that ‘arraignment’… because this is also where BOND is set ( or, perhaps, denied )… and no one can expect someone who isn’t familiar with the courts to know all the ins and outs there.

              Your ‘right to an attorney’ is part of ‘Miranda’… and the moment you are ‘read your rights’… you can/should do two things.

              1. Not say anything to anyone BUT your ‘legal counsel’ ( not the police, not anyone but someone who is on YOUR side ).

              2. Immediately request to speak with an attorney. If you don’t have one, or even if you do but there isn’t time for him/her to get to where you are… then a PUBLIC DEFENDER is required to be made available to you.

              Even if you KNOW you won’t eventually ‘qualify’ for a PUBIC DEFENDER in the long run… you STILL have the right to request that the ‘arraignment’ itself be ‘postponed’ until your regular lawyer can get to where you are… or you have the time to hire one to attend the arraignment with you.

              You CANNOT be flat-out DENIED access to a PUBLIC DEFENDER until the COURT itself has done a proper ‘Financial Analysis’ ( which also follows its own codified procedures ) and determined that you are not ‘eligible’ for one.

              Even Minnesota LAW says this.

              MINNESOTA STATUTE 611.17 – FINANCIAL INQUIRY
              https://www.revisor.leg.state.mn.us/statutes/?id=611.17

              611.17 FINANCIAL INQUIRY; STATEMENTS; CO-PAYMENT; STANDARDS FOR DISTRICT PUBLIC DEFENSE ELIGIBILITY.

              “Upon a request for the appointment of counsel, the court shall make an appropriate determination of financial eligibility under paragraph (a) of the applicant…”

              This Minnesota LAW also says…

              “The applicant shall be under a continuing duty WHILE represented by a public defender to disclose any changes in the applicant’s financial circumstances. The state public defender shall furnish appropriate forms for the financial statements, which must be used by the district courts throughout the state.

              So… even in Minnesota… you are ENTITLED to the counsel of a PUBLIC DEFENDER for the ENTIRE process of even ‘determining’ if you are ALLOWED to have a ‘Court-appointed’ PUBLIC DEFENDER.

              You cannot be DENIED access to ‘Counsel’ at ANY point in the ‘proceedings’ ( from arrest, through arraignment, and on into initial pre-trial hearings ) if this OFFICIAL “Determination of Financial Status” has NOT been ‘completed’.

              We don’t know the full circumstances here with regards to what just went on with this Michael Allen Johnson guy.

              It sounds like he did NOT have the good sense to just “keep his mouth shut” and NOT speak to the police without being represented by counsel… and that he also did NOT know that he had every right to do that… and every right to ASK for an ‘attorney’ the moment they were reading him his Miranda.

              >> Bob Power said…
              >>
              >> Must be done within 48 Hours.

              Not necessarily. Even before an arraignment, you can ask for a ‘delay’ even if it’s just in order to give your regular attorney ( if you have one ) time to get where you are and be the one standing beside you at your arraignment entering your ‘plea’ for you… AND then handling the BOND issues with the Judge.

              >> Bob Powers also said…
              >>
              >> For a judge to Appoint a Public Defender there
              >> has to be proof of Income And ability to secure a
              >> private Attorney.

              Yes… but I’m not just talking about the ‘long run’… and whether you will eventually go all the way to trial with a court-appointed public defender.

              Even Minnesota LAW says you can/should be consulting with a PUBLIC DEFENDER *while* this ‘Financial Evaluation’ is being made.

              From the same Minnesota ‘Financial Inuiry’ law up above…

              ——————————————————————-
              An inquiry to determine financial eligibility of a defendant for the appointment of the district public defender shall be made whenever possible PRIOR to the court appearance and by such persons as the court may direct. This inquiry may be combined with the prerelease investigation provided for in Minnesota Rule of Criminal Procedure 6.02, subdivision 3. In no case shall the district public defender be required to perform this inquiry or investigate the defendant’s assets or eligibility. The court has the sole duty to conduct a financial inquiry.
              ——————————————————————-

              In no case shall the district public defender be required to perform this inquiry or investigate the defendant’s assets or eligibility. The court has the sole duty to conduct a financial inquiry.

              In other words… even the PUBLIC DEFENDER ( which you are entitled to have access to the moment you request one ) isn’t even ALLOWED to conduct the ‘Financial Inquiry’ itself. It is totally up to the COURT to do that and you are entitled to still have access to a PUBLIC DEFENDER until the COURT has completed this ‘official’ ‘Financial Inquiry’.

              >> Bob Powers also said…
              >>
              >> This Person has a job and income so he must
              >> show cause that he can not afford an Attorney
              >> then one will be appointed.

              See above. The LAW says it is the other way around.

              It is the sole responsibility of the COURT to do this ‘Financial Inquiry’. The ‘defendant’ is required to ‘cooperate’… but the ‘onus’ is on the COURT to prove the ‘defendant’ does NOT qualify.

              And until such time as the COURT completes this mandated ‘Financial Inquiry’… you STILL have the right to legal counsel even if just to guide you through this ‘Financial Inquiry’ process itself.

              What we still don’t know is if Michael Allen Thompson was being DENIED access to legal counsel just to even get himself through his arraignment and BOND process… or if the Minnesota COURT had ALREADY done this ‘Financial Inquiry’ they are REQUIRED ( by LAW ) to do in order to DENY him public counsel.

              It’s not likely that this Minnesota Court could have actually ( truly ) completed all the required steps of that ‘Financial Inquiry’ in just 48 hours.

              Either way… it looks like this Michael Allen Johnson guy WAS allowed to ‘bond out’ ( even without benefit of counsel )… and his next Court pre-trial court appearance is on September 27th.

              If there was anything ‘wonky’ regarding his ‘arraignment’… then whatever counsel he DOES have by September 27th can take that up with the Judge.

              • Bob Powers says

                Normally a public defender is present for all Arraignments.

                If the accused has an Attorney they are present if not the Public defender can represent for the arraignment and request the appointment discussion on Bail is set at a Bail hearing.
                The bail is set at the Arraignment.
                So yes and no a public defender may have been present for the hearing. The defendant can request one be appointed at the hearing. Based on the paper work they fill out prior to the Arraignment the Judge can deny or appoint.

                No laws are violated by not having a Lawyer at the Arraignment..

                • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

                  We still don’t know the ‘full story’.

                  It SOUNDS like this Michael Allen Thompson guy did NOT ask to speak with a lawyer ( ANY lawyer ) as soon as he was arrested. He should have. He’s in a lot of trouble and he should have not ‘volunteered’ ANY information without the advice of counsel.

                  As for the ‘arraignment’… we don’t know if he even had a ‘public defender’ to consult with or represent him, even then.

                  But according to Minnesota Law, and THEIR own ‘rules’ regarding ‘Financial Inquiry’… if the Judge at that arraignment flat-out DENIED him access to a ‘public defender’…. without a FULL ‘Financial Inquiry’ having been completed yet… then that is ‘wonky’.

                  I really don’t think there’s any chance they ( that Minnesota COURT ) would have been able to do a FULL ‘Financial Inquiry’ as per their own LAWS ( copies of tax returns, etc. ) in just the 48 hours between his arrest and his arraignment.

            • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

              Followup…

              There is also the following from the actual MINNESOTA CRIMINAL PROCEDURE LAW regarding requiring the COURT ( not the defendant ) to perform a FULL “Financial Inquiry” before being able to DENY anyone a ‘public defender’…

              https://www.revisor.leg.state.mn.us/court_rules/rule.php?type=cr&id=5

              ————————————————————
              Subd. 5.Partial Eligibility and Reimbursement.

              The ability to pay part of the cost of adequate representation at any time while the charges are pending against a defendant must not preclude the appointment of the district public defender for the defendant. If the court, after finding the defendant eligible for district public defender services, determines that the defendant now has the ability to pay part of the costs, it may require a defendant to make partial payment as provided in Minnesota Statutes, section 611.20.
              ————————————————————

              See the ‘implication’ there?

              If you ASK for an ‘attorney’… then you MUST be ‘provided with one. If it is determined LATER that you are NOT actually ‘eligible’ for a public defender to take you all they way through your trial… then you MIGHT even be asked to ‘reimburse’ the court for some of the ‘legal services rendered’.

              Again… direct quote from actual MINNESOTA LAW…

              “The ability to pay part of the cost of adequate representation at ANY TIME while the charges are pending against a defendant MUST NOT preclude the appointment of the district public defender for the defendant.”

              A Judge can’t just take a look at you and ‘think’ you can probably afford an attorney… and then just DENY you a PUBLIC DEFENDER based on his ‘assumptions’.

              It HAS to be FULLY ( and legally ) determined that you are NOT ELIGIBLE before anyone can DENY you that.

              And ( in the meantime, while that FULL ‘Financial Inquiry’ is taking place )… you MUST NOT be denied a ‘public defender’ if you want one.

              But even in the case of determining whether someone is eligible for a long-term public defender… the determination is NOT just based on whether you are truly ‘indigent’ in the case where you have no job, and no address, and you eat your meals at the YMCA.

              The term ‘indigent’ means whether or not there’s really any way in hell you will be able to afford a ‘proper defense’ against the charges being made against you.

              Again… this is clearly stated in Minnesota’s own ‘Financial Inquiry’ LAW…

              Minnesota Statutes
              611.17 FINANCIAL INQUIRY; STATEMENTS; CO-PAYMENT; STANDARDS FOR DISTRICT PUBLIC DEFENSE ELIGIBILITY.
              https://www.revisor.leg.state.mn.us/statutes/?id=611.17

              ————————————————–
              (a) Each judicial district must screen requests for representation by the district public defender. A defendant is financially unable to obtain counsel if:

              (2) the court determines that the defendant, through any combination of liquid assets and current income, would be unable to pay the reasonable costs charged by private counsel in that judicial district for a defense of the same matter.
              ————————————————–

              “unable to pay the reasonable costs charged by private counsel in that judicial district for a defense of the same matter”

              So it really does come down to what you actually CHARGED with… how COMPLICATED that ‘trial’ will be… and whether or not there really is any way in hell the person charged will be able to AFFORD that ‘defense’, give whatever the ‘going rate’ is being charged by ‘private counsel’.

              If it’s a complicated FELONY TRIAL… the actual ‘costs’ to mount a ‘fair defense’ ( in today’s dollars ) could add up to HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS OF DOLLARS.

              If you add up every single asset and paycheck and any other possible access to money that a ‘defendant’ might have… and it still doesn’t come anywhere NEAR what it’s going to cost to mount an adequate ‘defense’ using PRIVATE attorneys…

              …then that defendant qualifies as being ‘legally indigent’ with regards to whether or not they really are going to be able to AFFORD their own ‘defense’ against the charges.

              And it has long since been determined that it would be ‘discrimination’ ( as in… only the RICH can get a fair trial ) to try and FORCE someone to mount a defense that ( in today’s dollars ) there is no way they can possibly afford.

              So… enter stage left… a ‘public defender’.

              • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

                And something tells me that if you add up every single penny sitting in this Michael Allen Johnson guy’s bank accounts, and whatever you can find under his couch cushions… AND you add in whatever ‘pay’ he was making as a member of a BIA Type 2 handcrew and whatever ‘real estate’ he might own is worth…

                …then he *might* be able to ‘afford’ to properly DEFEND himself ( with private attorney’s and today’s ‘going rates’ ) against a simple ‘assault’ charge, or something…

                …but as for being able to mount a ‘proper defense’ against TWO separate FELONY charges of VEHICULAR HOMICIDE?

                I doubt it.

                That’s not to say that someone or something ‘else’ might end up ‘kicking in’ her to help PAY for his defense… like some ‘help’ from the Indian Tribe OR some provisions for full payment of legal expenses coming from ‘Insurance Policies’ attached to the ‘tribe’ or the ‘vehicle’…

                …but I’m just talking about the guy, himself, personally.

                Something tells me HE ( himself, personally ) could still easily be found ‘legally indigent’ with regards to ever having a chance in hell of PAYING ( himself ) for a proper defense give the ‘going rate’ for competent criminal attorneys.

              • Bob Powers says

                The fact still is that an Arraignment is just that.

                You are notified of your charges and your rights and Bail is set.

                at that point you can request a Public defender or state you have an Attorney.

                The Public Defender can then be appointed after a review of the Financial ability of the Defendant.

                I will state again an arraignment is a different thing.

                You are ask if you understand your charges and your rights by the JUDGE, he then sets bail

                At that point you can request a public Defender the judge can appoint then or deny and appoint latter based on the Ability to pay.

                If his paper work showed he had sufficient income to hire a lawyer then the Judge would deny the request. at the Arraignment Hearing.

                Felony $250,000 Bail is normally not discussed at the Arraignment but at a Hearing at a later date.
                Misdemeanor’s can be argued for reduction at the Arraignment and a reduction or Release on own recognizances. to appear at subsequent court Hearings.

                It is not uncommon for a defendant to not have a Lawyer at an Arraignment.

                • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

                  >> Bob Powers said…
                  >>
                  >> At that point you can request a public
                  >> Defender the judge can appoint then or
                  >> deny and appoint latter based on the
                  >> Ability to pay.

                  According to Minnesota LAW ( see above )… a defendants ‘ability to pay for his own defense’ can ONLY be fully ascertained by the COURT doing a FULL ‘Financial Inquiry’ as spelled out in that LAW shown above.

                  And that LAW even says that is such a FULL ‘Financial Inquiry’ has NOT been completed… then a defendant should NOT be ‘denied access to a public defender’ at ‘any point in the proceedings until that FULL inquiry has been completed’.

                  So my original point still stands.

                  If that Judge flat-out DENIED Michael Allen Thomspon’s STATED REQUEST for a ‘public defender’ right there at his ‘arraignment’… and BEFORE the COURT had completed a FULL ‘Financial Inquiry’ ( according to their own LAW )… then something is ‘wonky’ there.

                  The LAW itself states that the DEFAULT is to GRANT ( not DENY ) the defendant a ‘public defender’ until such time as it IS determined ( via a FULL Inquiry ) if he will be eligible for a ‘public defender’ going all the way to trial.

                  Their own LAW even states that the defendant is supposed to have access to a ‘public defender’ to even just ‘guide’ them through the ‘Financial Inquiry’ itself.

                  • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

                    I am NOT trying to ‘defend’ this Mr. Michael Allen Thompson… OR his actions.

                    I’m just pointing out that on the surface… what the ‘Associated Press’ article says happened at his ‘arraignment’ seems a little ‘wonky’.

                    Regardless of the ‘arraignment’ issues… what’s your ‘opinion’ about the other Crew Carrier being ‘stopped’ and those firefighters ‘zip-tied’ and forced to sit on a curb… WITHOUT having been CHARGED with anything?

                    • Bob Powers says

                      ON THE SERFACE???

                      THE JUDGE DOSE NOT KNOW THE LAW ????

                      I have no clew and neither do you on the reasons the crew was detained?

                      You do not have to charge any one to detain them. You can tell them they are being cuffed until you have made all the inquires necessary.

                      (they are not under arrest at this time)

                      You are hand cuffing them for your protection and theirs.
                      You have suspicion to believe______________
                      What ever Drugs ETC.

                      WERE ANY ARRESTED????
                      Or were they all released.

                      Again I nor you at this time have any Idea.

                      Was this a BIA funded crew?

                      Was this a Contract crew from the reservation?

                      It could make a big difference if they are Government Employees or Pickup Contract FF. from the Reservation.

    • Charlie says

      Can’t see why he does not get the honors like the GMHS leaders–after all he was headed to go to work fighting a wild land fire. doing what wild land fire fighters do–He might have been the one least hung over, one with least lack of sleep, and best choice to drive the crew. He killed his cohorts using bad judgement to be a driver to be sure–but killing two is not as bad as killing 19.

      • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

        Reply to Charlie post on August 30, 2016 at 4:24 pm

        >> Charlie said…
        >>
        >> He might have been the one least hung over, one with least lack
        >> of sleep, and best choice to drive the crew.

        Now there’s a ‘disturbing’ thought…. because that might actually be TRUE.

        For people whose first instinct is to say… “if that Firefighter was SO tired… and/or so ‘messed up’… then why wasn’t someone else driving?”… the answer actually *might* be that the rest of the crew was even MORE “tired and/or messed up”, and he really was the one that was in the “best shape” to be driving out of ALL of them.

        As of this moment… I can find NO evidence that the US Bureau of Indian Affairs ( BIA )… or any OTHER ‘responsible agency’… has initiated any ‘official investigation’ into this incident that has left TWO BIA Wildland Firefighters dead and at least 5 others in the hospital.

        I am seeing NO ’24 hour report’ or ‘delegation of authority’ or even any ‘investigation announcement’ letters from ANY ‘Wildland Agency’ with regards to this terrible accident involving ‘Wildland Firefighters’.

        One of the key questions here is if that Wildland Firefighter who was driving hadn’t slept for more than 24 hours… was that HIS fault… or had he been REQUIRED to be putting in that kind of brutal work schedule prior to this incident?

        Was this BIA Type 2 “Beartown” Wildland Firefighting unit ‘on the clock’ for all those hours prior to this accident… with absolutely NO observation of the required 2:1 work/rest ratio?

        If there does NOT end up either a SAIT or a CRP or any other ‘official’ Agency investigation into the deaths of these two BIA Wildland Firefighters… then obviously the question will be… “Why NOT?”.

        • Bob Powers says

          First—Driving a vehicle with that many passengers requires a Equivalent of a Bus License. How many had that License is the first question. was he the first Driver or Second Driver?

          Second —Federal Government also requires 8Hrs. driving and rest time per operator, The Crew Boss should be monitoring that not each Driver.

          Third — This Accident was on a public Road and Subject to the Investigation of the State Police. Not the Federal Agency.

          Forth —- While in Travel Status you are on the Payroll. Even if you are ridding along and sleeping you are in travel Statius. To and from work assignment.

          To my Knowledge this type of accident (Vehicle on a Highway) dose not
          require a SAIT or a CRP. The State Highway Patrol or other Law Enforcement Agency dose the investigation and Sites on State Law.
          That is acceptable to the Government as an official investigation.

          Also The Government carries Vehicle insurance like any other Vehicle owner.
          The Driver is Insured for any Liability. When someone dies it usually is sited as Manslaughter not intentional. Bail can be reduced or waived at another hearing when the Defendant has their Lawyer. The Court system moves at its own time frames.

          • Bob Powers says

            This is another reason the Federal Government should do Drug testing like most Law enforcement agencies do.

            The Blood tests will show any concentration of Meth or Marijuana.

            They both stay in the blood for up to 30 days.

          • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

            Reply to Bob Powers post on August 31, 2016 at 7:39 am

            >> Bob Powers said…
            >>
            >> First—Driving a vehicle with that many passengers
            >> requires a Equivalent of a Bus License.

            Nope. ( Not according to NIFC ‘Interagency Standards’, anyway ).

            Crew Carriers only usually carry 9-10 people… and in the case in question.

            There DOES come a point when you need what is called a ‘commercial operator’s license’, but the NIFC ‘Interagency Standards’ say you don’t need one until you are driving more than 16 ( Sixteen ) people at the same time.

            In the case in question… there were only 9 people in that Crew Carrier that was being driven by “Beartown” Firefighter Michael Allen Johnson ( including him ).

            The actual US Department of the Interior ( USDI or just DOI ) Bureau of Indian Affairs ( BIA ) Wildland Fire Operations manual is here…

            BIA Wildland Fire & Aviation Program Management & Operations Guide
            http://www.indianaffairs.gov/nifc/operations/bluebook/index.htm

            See “Chapter 8 – Safety and Risk Management”

            Then scroll down to the “Motor Vehicle Operation Policy” section

            From that section…
            ———————————————————
            Motor Vehicle Operation Policy

            All individuals operating a motor vehicle in performance of duties in support of the BIA, must comply with the requirement of the BIA Motor Vehicle policy requirements 5 CFR 930, and 485 DM 16. Regional Directors,

            Agency Superintendents, and FMO’s will be responsible for ensuring full compliance, including safe operation of motor vehicles as well as immediate response to issues of non-compliance. All motor vehicle operators will be required to possess a current Government Motor Vehicle Operators Identification Card.

            Potential drivers annually must complete GSA form 3607
            ———————————————————

            So here is what ( according to just the blurb above from BIA’s own Wildland Operations Manual ) you ARE supposed to have…

            The VEHICLE must comply with…

            BIA Motor Vehicle policy requirements 5 CFR 930, and 485 DM 16.

            The OPERATOR of any BIA vehicle must have…

            – A current Government Motor Vehicle Operators Identification Card.
            – Annually must complete GSA form 3607.

            So the ‘key’ is this Government Motor Vehicle Operators Identification Card.

            Form: OF-346
            U.S. Government Motor Vehicle Operator’s Identification Card.

            Basically… anyone can get one of those. Where the ‘rubber meets the road’ is when it comes to the ‘Interagency Standards’ and what is REQUIRED above and beyond that easily-obtaineable ‘Government Vehicle Operator ID Card’.

            Here is what ‘Interagency Standards’ say…

            2016 Interagency Standards for Fire and Fire Aviation Operations
            Department of the Interior ( Bureau of Indian Affairs – BIA )
            Bureau of Land Management
            National Park Service
            U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service
            Department of Agriculture ( U.S. Forest Service )
            https://www.nifc.gov/PUBLICATIONS/redbook/2016/RedBookAll.pdf

            ———————————————————–
            2012 wording…

            Employees operating any motor vehicle with a GVWR of 26,000 pounds or more, towing a vehicle 10,000 pounds GVWR or more, hauling hazardous material requiring the vehicle to be placarded, or transporting 16 or more persons (including the driver) must possess a valid Commercial Drivers License (CDL) with all applicable endorsements.
            —————————————————————
            2016 wording…

            SAFETY AND RISK MANAGEMENT CHAPTER 7
            Release Date: January 2016

            Employees operating a motor vehicle that meets any of the following criteria must possess a valid Commercial Driver’s License (CDL) with all of the applicable endorsements:

            – Has a gross combination weight rating or gross combination weight of 26,001 pounds or more, whichever is greater, inclusive of a towed unit(s) with a gross vehicle weight rating or gross vehicle weight of more than
            10,000 pounds, whichever is greater; or

            – Has a gross vehicle weight rating or gross vehicle weight of 26,001 pounds or more, whichever is greater; or

            – Is designed to transport 16 or more passengers, including the driver; or

            – Is of any size and is used in the transportation of hazardous materials.

            – Hazardous materials means any material that has been designated as hazardous under 49 U.S.C. 5103 and is required to be placarded under subpart F of 49 CFR part 172 or any quantity of a material listed as a select agent or toxin in CFR part 7
            ———————————————————

            So according to ‘Interagency Standards’ ( which cover BIA as well as all other NIFC participating agencies… from 2012 until the present ) you don’t need a ‘CDL’ ( Commercial Driver’s License ) until you are ‘driving’ 16 or more people at once ( including yourself ) in any particular vehicle.

            >> Bob Powers also said…
            >>
            >> How many had that License is the first question. was he the
            >> first Driver or Second Driver?

            According to Interagency Standards ( see above )… no one needs ‘that license’ you are thinking of ( commercial drivers license ) unless they are ever driving 16 or more people at a time.

            Crew Carriers usually only have up to 10 people in them… so ( according to NIFC Standards ), no one ever driving a ‘Crew Carrier’ needs any kind of ‘special’ license at all, other than a valid State Driver’s License and a valid ‘Government Vehicle Operator ID Card’.

            >> Bob Powers also said…
            >>
            >> Second —Federal Government also requires 8Hrs. driving
            >> and rest time per operator.

            Nope. The ‘8 hour’ thing is there for ‘rest time before driving’… but actual ‘drive time’ can be up to 10 hours ( or MORE if you just say it’s an ’emergency’ ).

            From PDF page 163, in the ‘Safety and Risk Management Chapter 7 of the current 2016 Interagency Standards for Fire and Fire Aviation Operations…
            ———————————————————
            No driver will drive more than 10 hours (behind the wheel) within any duty-day.

            – Multiple drivers in a single vehicle may drive up to the duty-day limitation provided no driver exceeds the individual driving (behind the wheel) time limitation of 10 hours.

            – A driver shall drive only if they have had at least 8 consecutive hours off duty before beginning a shift.

            Exception to the minimum off-duty hour requirement is allowed when essential to:
            Accomplish immediate and critical suppression objectives.
            Address immediate and critical firefighter or public safety issues.

            ————————————————————

            >> Bob Powers also said…
            >>
            >> Third — This Accident was on a public Road and Subject
            >> to the Investigation of the State Police. Not the Federal Agency.

            Wrong. See below.

            >> Bob Powers also said…
            >>
            >> Forth —- While in Travel Status you are on the Payroll.
            >> Even if you are ridding along and sleeping you are in
            >> travel Statius. To and from work assignment.

            Yes. Which means you ARE “on the job”… riding in a ‘Government’ vehicle. Fatal accidents involving Government vehicles and/or ‘Government employees’ are REQUIRED to be ‘investigated’ by the Agency responsible for both.

            >> Bob Powers also said…
            >>
            >> To my Knowledge this type of accident (Vehicle on a
            >> Highway) dose not require a SAIT or a CRP.

            Yes. It does. See below.

            Also… that similar ‘rollover’ accident this summer which killed 2 BLM FFs who were ‘on the clock’ and driving a BLM vehicle IS being ‘investigated’ with a full blown SAIT. Results have not been published yet.

            >> Bob Powers also said…
            >>
            >> The State Highway Patrol or other Law Enforcement Agency
            >> dose the investigation and Sites on State Law.
            >> That is acceptable to the Government as an official investigation.

            Nope. Not according to the actual ‘Operations Manuals’ for agencies like US Forestry, Bureau of Land Management, National Park Service, Bureau of Indian Affairs, etc. etc. They each have their OWN ‘requirements’ to investigate any/all fatal accidents involving their vehicles and/or employees.

            See more about this down below.

            >> Bob Powers also said…
            >>
            >> Also The Government carries Vehicle insurance like any other
            >> Vehicle owner. The Driver is Insured for any Liability. When
            >> someone dies it usually is sited as Manslaughter not intentional.

            BIA Type 2 “Beartown” Crewman Michael Allen Johnson has already been officially CHARGED… and the ‘charges’ are very specific.

            TWO ( separate ) ‘counts’ of “Criminal Vehicular Homicide (Gross Negligence)”.

            The “Gross Negligence” part is is already there in the charges themselves, which makes this pretty damn serious. The ‘Gross Negligence’ part is pretty much the same as the ‘Depraved Indifference’ aspect that *could* be applied of this really was an actual ‘manslaughter’ charge.

            From the actual ‘charges’ filed by Tony Palumbo, Prosecutor for Anoka County, Minnesota, which has jurisdiction in this case…

            Charge: Criminal Vehicular Homicide (Gross Negligence)
            Minnesota Statute: 609.2112.1(a)(1)
            Maximum Sentence: 0-10 Years and/or $6,000.00 – $20,000.00
            Offense Level: Felony

            So regardless of the ‘Homicide’ reference in the charge itself… the maximum sentence in Minnesota for this particular charge would be 10 years in prison and a $20,000 fine for EACH COUNT.

            Since there are TWO counts… then if they really want to ‘throw the book’ at this guy… he could be sentenced to TWO ( sequential ) 10 year prison terms and $40,000 in fines. ( 20 years in prison an $40,000 fine ).

            >> Bob Powers also said…
            >>
            >> Bail can be reduced or waived at another
            >> hearing when the Defendant has their Lawyer.

            That’s correct. Next ‘court appearance’ for Michael Allen Johnson is September 27, 2016.

            If anything was ‘wonky’ regarding Mr. Johnson’s ‘arrest’… ‘interrogation’… and/or ‘arraignment’… then ( hopefully ) he will have counsel by then and they can take it up with the Judge.

            ** AGENCY INVESTIGATION REQUIRED ( BUT NOT HAPPENING? )

            Due to the length of this post ( and number of links already present )… the explanation of why an ‘Agency Investigation’ seems REQUIRED will be in the next ‘Reply’…

            • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

              ** ‘ON THE CLOCK’ AGENCY VEHICLE ROLLOVER FATALITIES
              ** REQUIRE A ‘SPECIAL ACCIDENT INVESTIGATION’

              Less than 2 months ago, TWO ‘Bureau of Land Management’ ( BLM ) employees were killed in a single-vehicle ‘rollover’ accident that took place in Nevada.

              These BLM firefighters were ‘in transit’ ( coming BACK from an assignment ), but were still ‘on the clock’ and drving an ‘Agency’ vehicle.

              That meets the ‘criteria’ for a ‘Special Accident Investigation’ as established in even the 2016 ‘Interagency Standards Guide’, and such an Agency ‘Investigation’ was IMMEDIATELY started upon news of the ‘rollover’ fatalities.

              The Reno Gazette-Journal – RENO, Nevada
              UPDATE: Names of BLM firefighters killed in crash released
              Published: 5 a.m. PDT July 12, 2016 – Jose Olivares, RGJ
              http://www.rgj.com/story/news/2016/07/11/blm-firefighters-killed-nevada-highway-crash/86938496/

              From that article…
              —————————————————————–
              The Nevada Highway Patrol has identified the fatalities of the crash as Jacob Omalley, 27, the driver, and Will Hawkins, 22, the right-front passenger. Both are from Winnemucca. Middle-seat passenger Zachery McElroy, 23, from Reno, sustained non-life threatening injuries and was transported to Renown Regional Medical Center via Care Flight. He is in stable condition, according to a BLM news release.

              Original post:

              A procession was held Monday as the bodies of two BLM firefighters were escorted from Winnemucca to Reno.

              Nevada Highway Patrol and local agencies formed a procession ending at the corner of East Second Street and Kirman Avenue.

              The two died in a Sunday evening crash about 37 miles north of Winnemucca. NHP said tire failure may have caused the crash. Trooper Jim Stewart said the three firefighters were the only ones in the vehicle when it crashed Sunday near the junction of State Highway 140 and U.S. 95.

              They were returning from looking for lightning-sparked wildfires.

              The driver was among the two deaths. The injured firefighter was flown by helicopter to a Reno hospital, where he’s in stable condition.

              BLM spokesman Rudy Evenson says an AGENCY CRASH INVESTIGATION TEAM is on the way to the area.

              More detail will be posted as it becomes available.

              The Associated Press contributed to this report.
              ———————————————————-

              “BLM spokesman Rudy Evenson says an AGENCY CRASH INVESTIGATION TEAM is on the way to the area.”

              Another article about this ‘rollover’ accident which says speicfically that a Serious Accident Investigation Team ( SAIT ) was immediately put together to investigate these ‘rollover’ fatalities…

              BLM Discusses Fatal Accident
              Published: JUly 14, 2016 7:34 AM – By Steven Field
              http://www.buckaroonews.com/2016/07/blm-discusses-fatal-accident/

              From that article…
              ———————————————————
              Jessica Gardetto, Public Affair Specialist for the Bureau of Land Management (BLM) explains that on July 10th, a BLM Winnemucca District Engine Crew had just finished doing a routine check for fires after lighting, when they were involved in a single vehicle accident.

              The crew were returning to Winnemucca from Denio in a Unimog, which is a large wildland fire engine. Nevada Highway Patrol lists the accident as a single vehicle accident due to tire failure.

              At this time the BLM is conducting its own investigation, through their Serious Accident Investigation Team, which is still on going.

              One of the reasons for the additional investigation is to help accidents like this from happening in the future.
              ———————————————————–

              “BLM is conducting its OWN INVESTIGATION, through their Serious Accident Investigation Team ( SAIT ), which is still on going. One of the REASONS for the ADDITIONAL INVESTIGATION is to help accidents like this from happening in the FUTURE.”

              Worth repeating…

              “One of the REASONS for the ADDITIONAL INVESTIGATION is to help accidents like this from happening in the FUTURE.”

              ( Continued next ‘Reply’ )…

            • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

              And here is BLM’s own ‘press release’ immediately following the July ‘rollover fatalities’ involving its own personnel and its own vehicle.

              It clearly states this ‘rollover accident’ was automatically initiating a full “Serious Accident Investigation Team”

              US Department of the Interior ( USDI )
              Bureau of Land Management ( BLM )
              NEWS RELEASE
              BLM News Release No. WDO 2016-023
              Memorial Service for Fallen Firefighters Jacob O’Malley and Will Hawkins to be
              Held in Winnemucca on Tuesday, July 19th
              Published: 07/14/16
              Contacts:
              Contacts: Jessica Gardetto, 208-957-1355, jdgardetto (at) blm.gov
              http://www.blm.gov/nv/st/en/info/newsroom/2016/july/winnemucca_memorial.html

              —————————————————————–
              Winnemucca, Nev. – Memorial services will be held for BLM wildland firefighters Jacob O’Malley and Will Hawkins who lost their lives in a single-vehicle accident July 10 on Nevada State Route 140.

              The services will take place at the Winnemucca Events Complex Exhibit Hall from 1:00 – 4:00 p.m. on Tuesday, July 19, in Winnemucca, Nevada.

              The BLM firefighters were returning from duty in the Denio area on their way back to Winnemucca when the accident occurred at about 5:20 p.m. Sunday evening. Jacob, 27, and Will, 22, were killed in the rollover accident.

              Their coworker, Zachery McElroy, 23, was flown to Renown Medical Center in Reno, where he was treated and released Tuesday afternoon.

              The BLM fire crew was returning from a routine patrol looking for lightning fires in the area when the accident occurred.

              The two men both resided in Winnemucca, though Jacob was from Lake Tahoe’s Zephyr Cove and Will was from Reno. The families of Jacob and Will have established private family memorial services in the Lake Tahoe and Reno areas, respectively.

              “Everyone is invited to attend the Winnemucca services on Tuesday to honor Jacob and Will – two brave, hardworking firefighters who were dearly loved by their families and coworkers,” said BLM Nevada State Director John Ruhs.

              The BLM deployed a Serious Accident Investigation Team ( SAIT ) to determine the accident cause and other information.

              Winnemucca Events Complex
              1000 Fairgrounds Road
              Winnemucca, NV 89445

              —————————————————————–

              “The BLM deployed a Serious Accident Investigation Team ( SAIT ) to determine the accident cause and other information.”

              And here is WHY the BLM ‘agency’ was REQUIRED to immediately put together a “Serious Accident Investigation Team” to do its own investigation of the rollover fatalities.

              It’s because the 2016 ‘Interagency Standards’ document ( shared by all Federal Level Wildland Firefighting ‘Agencies’ including BLM, USFS, BIA, etc. ) REQUIRES it.

              2016 Interagency Standards for Fire and Fire Aviation Operations
              Department of the Interior ( Bureau of Indian Affairs – BIA )
              Bureau of Land Management
              National Park Service
              U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service
              Department of Agriculture ( U.S. Forest Service )
              https://www.nifc.gov/PUBLICATIONS/redbook/2016/RedBookAll.pdf

              —————————————————————
              Chapter 18 – REVIEWS AND INVESTIGATIONS

              Distinct types of wildland fire incidents and accidents have specific investigation REQUIREMENTS.

              Wildland Fire Incident and Accident Types and Definitions

              Serious Wildland Fire Accident – An unplanned event or series of events that resulted in death, injury, occupational illness, or damage to or loss of equipment or property.

              For wildland fire operations, a SERIOUS ACCIDENT involves ANY of the following:

              – One or more fatalities;

              – Three or more personnel who are inpatient hospitalized as a direct result of or in support of wildland fire operations;

              – Property or equipment damage of $250,000 or more; and/or

              – Consequences that the Designated Agency Safety and Health Official (DASHO) judges to warrant a Serious Accident Investigation
              —————————————————————

              The recent ‘rollover fatalities’ involving the Bureau of Indian Affairs sponsored “Beartown” Type 2 Crew is ( for all intents and purposes ) the SAME as what happened in Nevada back in July.

              So why are we not ALREADY hearing that a SAIT is ‘on the job’ and investigating THOSE BIA related vehicle / personnel ‘rollover fatalities’?

              The ‘Standards’ don’t say any participating Agency is allowed to just ‘pick and choose’ which ‘fatality accidents’ involving Agency equipment and personnel they will ‘investigate’… and which ones they won’t.

              Doesn’t work that way.

              • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

                Followup…

                And even though the ‘Department of the Interior’ and its Wildland ‘Agencies’ ( National Park Service, Bureau of Indian Affairs, etc. ) all ‘adhere’ to the same NIFC ‘Standards’ shown above…

                …if you actually ‘drill down’ on the ‘Bureau of Indian Affairs’ websites to their OWN ‘published’ Standards… you find the exact same thing with regards to WHEN they are REQUIRED to initiate a “Serious Accident Investigtion”.

                Bureau of Indian Affairs
                Wildland Fire Operations Manual
                Chapter 17 – Reviews and Investigations
                http://www.indianaffairs.gov/cs/groups/xnifc/documents/text/idc013077.pdf

                PDF page 10 ( of 25 pages )
                ———————————————————-
                Wildland Fire Incident/Accident Types and Definitions

                Serious Accident Investigation ( SAI )

                An unplanned event or series of events that resulted in death, injury,occupational illness, or damage to or loss of equipment or property.

                A serious accident would involve any of the following:

                – One or more fatalities;

                – Three or more personnel who are inpatient hospitalized as a direct result of or in support of wildland fire operations;

                – Property or equipment damage of $250,000 or more; and

                – Consequences that the DASHO judges to warrant a Serious
                Accident Investigation
                ———————————————–

                There were TWO fatalities involve in last week’s ‘rollover’ of that Bureau of Indian Affairs “Beartown” Type 2 Crew Carrier, and at least 3 of the remaining crewmembers are STILL in the hospital.

                But still no sign of any ‘investigation’.

                • Bob Powers says

                  They usually take the investigation report of the Police agency in evolved. If an accident happens on a Government road or close to the home base then the agency will respond and basically work with the responsible Law Enforcement agency’s investigation.

                  In other words they use the Law enforcement investigation as their main report if the Agency is not available immediately. Even then they are not fully trained or outfitted with the equipment that the State police have to investigate accidents.

                  I will state that the FS and BLM require a Commercial license for Eng. operators and for Crew Carriers regardless of number of passengers. BIA should be the same but what ever.

                  .

                  • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

                    Of course they ‘use’ the local Law Enforcement ‘reports’ as ‘part’ of their ‘Agency investigation’.

                    But they ( the Agency involved ) is STILL supposed to do a SAIT ( or CRP ) of their own when there is at least 1 fatality and/or at least 3 FFs ‘admitted’ to the hospital.

                    This recent BIA Type 2 Crew ‘rollover’ is even WORSE than the BLM one in July.

                    In both cases… 2 Agency FFs KILLED… but the BIA Beartown rollover had MANY other ‘serious’ injuries and even now there are at least 3 of those surviving BIA crew members still in the hospital.

                    So where is the SAIT for this BIA ‘Beartown’ rollover… as there was ( immediately ) one for the July BIA rollover?

                    • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

                      Whoops. Typo in that final ‘question’ above.

                      The ‘July, 2016’ rollover fatalities in Nevada was a BLM incident, not BIA.

                      The ‘question’ above should have been…

                      “So where is the SAIT for this BIA ‘Beartown’ rollover… as there was ( immediately ) one for the July BLM rollover?”

  7. WantsToKnowTheTruth says

    **
    ** JUDGE THAT WILL ‘PRESIDE’ OVER THE YARNELL PROPERTY DAMAGE ‘APPEAL’
    ** IS ON GOVERNOR DOUG DUCEY’S ‘SHORT LIST’ TO BE APPOINTED ( BY DUCEY )
    ** TO THE ARIZONA SUPREME COURT.

    The “Presiding Judge’ for ‘Division 1’ of the Arizona Appellate Court, Judge Kent E. Katani, is the one who will ( supposedly ) be making the actual ‘decision’ with regards to the ‘appeal’ of the Yarnell Property Damage lawsuits… and the one ‘presiding’ over the ‘Oral Arguments’ that are ( finally ) going to take place for that ‘appeal’ this coming September 21, 2016.

    What is interesting to NOTE, however, is that just a few weeks ago… it was ‘announced’ PUBLICLY that this ‘Kent E. Katani’ Judge is now on Arizona Governor Doug Ducey’s ‘short list’ for nominees to fill 2 vacant seats on Arizona’s actual ‘Supreme Court’.

    Here is one of the articles that ( according to Arizona law ) is now requesting PUBLIC ‘comment’ about Governor Doug Ducey’s ‘short’ list’ of Supreme Court candidates.

    And notice who is ( literally ) at the TOP OF THE LIST…

    THE SEDONA TIMES
    Article Title: Public Comments Sought on Arizona Supreme Court Applicants
    Published: August 9, 2016
    http://sedonaeye.com/public-comments-sought-on-arizona-supreme-court-applicants/

    From that article…
    ————————————————————————
    The public is asked for comments on eleven applicants for TWO new positions on the Arizona Supreme Court.

    The applicants are:

    Kent E. Cattani, an Arizona Court of Appeals Judge – Division I
    Pamela S. Frasher Gates, a Maricopa County Superior Court Judge
    Thomas A. Gilson of Beus Gilbert, PLLC
    Andrew W. Gould, an Arizona Court of Appeals Judge – Division I
    Randall M. Howe, an Arizona Court of Appeals Judge – Division I
    John R. Lopez, IV of the Arizona Attorney General’s Office
    Robert J. McWhirter of the Law Office of Robert J. McWhirter
    Jennifer M. Perkins of the Arizona Attorney General’s Office
    Robert G. Schaffer of Lewis Roca Rothgerber Christie, LLP
    Peter B. Swann, an Arizona Court of Appeals Judge – Division I
    Samuel A. Thumma, an Arizona Court of Appeals Judge – Division I

    The appointment of a Supreme Court Justice is a transparent process and public input importantly helps the Commission on Appellate Court Appointments fairly and effectively evaluate each candidate. Applications are posted online at http://www.azcourts.gov/jnc.

    The Commission on Appellate Court Appointments will review the applications and hear comments at a public meeting on September 1, 2016.

    The meeting will be held in Room 101 of the Arizona State Courts Building, 1501 West Washington. Citizens may address the Commission at that time or send written comments to 1501 West Washington, Suite 221, Phoenix, AZ 85007 or to jnc (at) courts.az.gov.

    Comments must be received by August 30, 2016, to be considered.

    Anonymous comments cannot be considered.

    At the September 1, 2016, meeting, the Commission will decide which applicants will be interviewed for the openings. The Commission will begin interviewing the selected applicants on September 29, 2016. After the interviews, the Commission will recommend at least three nominees for each opening to Governor Doug Ducey, who will APPOINT the new justices.
    ————————————————————————

    So anyone in Arizona who has anything to say about this ‘Judge Kent E. Cattani’ guy only has until this coming TUESDAY ( August 30, 2016 ) to do it.

    And if this ‘Judge Kent E. Cattani’ guy DOES end up on the short-short list for the either one of the TWO available Arizona Supreme Court positions… then he will begin to be ‘interviewed’ for that job just 8 ( EIGHT ) DAYS after he ‘presides’ over the ‘Oral Arguments’ in the Yarnell Property Damage appeals case ( with 165+ plaintiffs involved ).

    Judge Cattani is NOT being asked ( or required in any way ) to decide the actual ‘results’ of ANY of the 165+ Yarnell Property Damage lawsuits.

    This ‘appeal’ is ONLY about whether lower court ( Maricopa County ) Judge Richard Gamma ‘exceeded his authority’ in his ‘decision’ to not even ALLOW those 165+ plaintiffs to even have their ‘day in court’ on the matter(s)… as ( supposedly ) guaranteed in the Arizona Constitution.

    Only an ‘actual trial’ ( with evidence presented, and witnesses called to testify UNDER OATH ) could possibly ever ‘decide’ the issues.

    Judge Katani is ONLY required to ‘decide’ if these 165+ plaintiffs really ARE ‘entitled’ ( as per the Arizona Constitution ) to… ( win OR lose )… simply have their ‘day in court’.

    One can only hope ( indeed, expect ) that Judge Cattani will NOT let his current ‘consideration’ for an appointment ( by Governor Doug Ducey ) to Arizona’s actual Supreme Court to influence his decision making in this appeal in any way, shape or form.

    Any ‘considerations’ regarding “staying on Governor Ducey’s good side” with regards to his potential ‘promotion’ should ( hopefully ) NOT influence his decision making in any way.

    ( All fingers and toes crossed… anyway ).

    • Joy A. Collura says

      Hum….Bob Powers…since August 17 6:16am I have tried to make time to ask questions but I have been very ill. First RTS…do you remember my 19 rock pile on the official staff ride path? I was pure when I made that and someone knocked it down and destroyed it and I rebuilt it. People can knock my honorable mark where I last saw the man…but Im on the Weavers from antelope creek to hillside az more than anyone and so keep knocking it down and STEAL the special rocks and the one where turbyfills dad wrote on but one day wwtktt your tag name on this blog will happen…but for now keep gathering but now for Bob Powers…I hope you enjoyed fishing…I know I do…I need to know since you were not present who fed or told you about Lowman that you come here to praise their actions. The size and placement of the backburns-were they sufficient to effectively save the town? Name the size and locations. How long and how wide were each of the 2 specific referenced burnouts as well how close at the closest point and the farthest point of the pattern were each of the 2 to the closest homes…they were designed to protect and how large of an appx acreage was the actual size of the town and were the backburns set up in depth, on only one side of the same? What time of day and or night were each of the same established aerial or manual and were they reinforced with retardant drops? And how many minutes or hours did it take for each of the sep. stages to be prepared.

      • Joy A. Collura says

        After my surgeries if I saw you in person and after my surgeries in person I would like to show you whomever fed you that is misinformed and unfair and not a true friend or they are not fully aware to the proper knowledge and I know I paid alot for foias and still awaiting since some a year and Spring 2016 but I do have knowledge about the fire you praised on…please be patient…the truth in due factual time is happening

      • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

        Reply to Joy A. Collura post on August 29, 2016 at 12:21 am

        >> Joy A. Collura said…
        >>
        >> …keep knocking it down and STEAL the special rocks and the one
        >> where turbyfills dad wrote on but one day wwtktt your tag name
        >> on this blog will happen…but for now keep gathering

        Joy… I know you are ‘famous’ for your run-on sentences… but the way you phrased that one above and ‘ran’ those two thoughts together I feel the need to make something clear.

        I have never set foot in the “Great State of Arizona”… and from what I NOW know about Arizona… I absolutely never plan to.

        I am ( personally ) horrified that ANYONE would ‘disturb’ that memorial that you and Sonny had started up there on the Weaver mountains. It seems like it might have been ‘removed’ just prior to those ‘Beta Tests’ of that court-mandated ‘Staff Ride’… almost as if the people planning that ‘Staff Ride’ did not WANT that ‘memorial’ to be there… or did not WANT the ‘Family Members’ to even SEE it when they did that court-mandated ‘Family Staff Ride’.

        If so… that’s disgusting behavior… and they should APOLOGIZE for it.

        • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

          Followup…

          If the people planning that court-mandated ‘Yarnell Fire Staff Ride’ really ARE the ones who removed/destroyed that rock pile memorial that you and Sonny created up there near the original ‘anchor point’… it might actually be a case where these people were SO ‘obsessed’ with controlling the ‘information’ and the ‘presentation’ for this ‘Staff Ride’ ( especially since the court had ordered at least one of the ‘Betas’ to be specifically for ‘Family Members’ ) that they just didn’t even want to have to TALK about it as the ‘Staff Ride’ passed it.

          In other words… they had no ‘plans’ to insert ANY discussion into the ‘Staff Ride’ about the fact that there HAD been ‘hikers’ up there… who HAD met those men in that same location… but THEY managed make it out of there safely that day.

          They ( perhaps ) didn’t even want ANYONE on the ‘Staff Ride’ ( especially any ‘Family Members’ ) to even see that ‘memorial’ and ask any questions like “Who put THIS here?”… since it wasn’t them.

          Just a theory… but I’m still just trying to comprehend why ANYONE would be so twisted in the head as to DESTROY / REMOVE that memorial that you and Sonny started up there.

          • Charlie says

            Certainly, WTKTT, that memorial was a marker of the place we passed them on their way up. It was also the point from which Joy photographed those men as they continued up the mountain toward the fire edge. Joy’s photo went front pages nationwide and was I believe the very last photo of the complete group of GMHS serving under Eric Marsh. We again saw that photo recently on the front page of a newspaper–I believe the Tucson newspaper–Joy can tell you. Beside that, Joy took over 1500 other photos that day, including close up of the terrain early morning right in the basin and very close to where the men later perished.

            We erected a stone monument and asked people that passed to add a stone in honor and rememberance of the 19. Below the monument we arranged 19 rocks with a rock in the middle of the closed space of the 9 to honor Donut. We saw him as a casualty as much as those 19. The reason for that monument was not only to mark the spot we passed and honor the GMHS crew, it was erected because the public is denied access to honor the men at the actual site they died. I do not understand that since all other sites, such as where the 14 died at the Storm King fire in Colorado, 13 at Mann Gulch, and on an on are left accessible to the public and for instance, Dr. Ted Putnam, lead investigator for the Storm King deaths of 14, has accessed the Storm King location many times, and at least 5 times I know of to the Mann Gulch place where 13 were killed. Yet he even was denied access to the GMHS death basin. Don’t hold your breath getting permission to the death basin, since another investigator of long time experience with top credentials, Gary Olson was also denied. Joy and I both went there but only with ADOSH people and they had badges to get themselves through–also instrumental in fining the FS the max fine of over $500,000. Using the excuse that it is too delicate for the widows such as Amanda Marsh to allow people in there sounds fishy to an old timer like me. Why would these widows be anymore delicate of this when we only hear this in Arizona, not Storm King or any of the other sites of wild land fire fighter deaths? Why would the tax payers foot the bill to buy half a section for these people when we are not buying any land for the recent deaths of other fire fighters?

            The sad thing is that all fire fighters who know their beans about wild land fire fighting go there and get an education as to how so many men could make such gross errors that would cause their deaths. Accidents seldom are truly accidents and some so called accidents and acts of God are absolutely not accidents. The GMHS deaths were caused–Negligence, carelessness, strictly obeying orders without question, playing a game to impress, and other human factors enter in. This site and the men in the know–long time wild land superintendents, some of the finest civilian investigators and wild land fire death and cause investigators have been laying it out for over three years now despite the many attempts to smoke screen the truth.

            Reputations will not be saved at the risk of future wild land fire fighters. Any awards handed out for a so-called good job at Yarnell in ether the GMHS or Tenderfoot fire should be rescinded–Hang your Head Tom Dooly.

            Arson and murder are without statute of limitations. Post Mortem charges have much effect. They do remind careless and lackluster wild land fire superintendents, and other bosses responsible for the young lives under them to take due care of their men’s lives. No one wants a legacy of neglectfully killing his or her crew.

      • Bob Powers says

        They had two days to prep and burn two seperiate Burn Outs one out side the other clear around the Town of Lowman it worked well and saved a town of 5 00.

        • Joy A. Collura says

          Bob. Imagine it was Yarnell not Lowman. And those burnouts worked so how big wide deep long were the burnouts to be effective for Yarnell instead of Lowman. ..use imagineering please…im not satisfied…exactly what are we talking about outside. What time…was it at night…what time of the day was it set. I need minut details…

          • Joy A. Collura says

            If you had the two days in Yarnell what would you have done and this fire in lowman was it outside east or west or north and what time…in the middle nigt2…did ittake 1hour..12 hours…im interested

            • Bob Powers says

              You are talking two different locations and fuel types.
              Lowman is in a canyon which means the fire could work up and down hill. Its not a big town sits within a 1 x 1 Square mile area.
              It also sits on a river which is on one side of the town.

              The fire was wide spread south of Lowman.
              Prepare a line out say a quarter Mile from Lowman and around the town then one in close. Pre burn the first out a Quarter mile then when the fire gets close set a back fire from the second to burn to the Main fire. you do that as the fire goes around the town.
              It takes Highly qualified Back Firing specialists to run such a plan to perfection. Not a bunch of FF with torches and no knowledge of what they are doing. It is a preplanned and executed maneuver.

              Yarnell Should have been the priority the Morning of the 30th.
              There was time Manpower and location to prep and burn before 4 PM. Protection of the Town again should have been the priority
              I believe that should have been the focuses at 6 AM.

              They spent all there energy trying to put in direct line and cat line that could not hold not to mention wasting all that Slurry on an open brush field.

              • Bob Powers says

                That River is the South Fork of the Payette River goes thru the town on the South side. Also a main road running north was used as a burn out to hold the fire from moving back to the east.

                they actually used roads and tractor line south of Lowman to keep the fire out of town.

                A little town south of Lowman–Pioneerville was also saved by back firing around the town/village.

                • Muzzy says

                  Joy,

                  I hope Bob doesn’t mind my stepping in here. Here is a longer answer Bob gave a while ago:

                  http://www.investigativemedia.com/please-begin-yarnell-hill-fire-chapter-xxiii-here/#comment-343578

                  I asked Bob what he would have done ideally at YHF. His plan required 2-3 dozers and a crew. YHF only had one or two dozers, and at least one of them had no red carded driver.

                  Just the same, Bob opined that they could have finished by lunch. Just imagine, if they could have had what they needed, there would have been 19 tired and hungry guys buying out the pancake supply at the Ranch Restaurant. Instead…

                  • Bob Powers says

                    Thanks Muzzy

                    It is frustrating because I always believed keeping a Wildfire out of and away from structures was how I was trained as the first priority.

                    That dose not mean getting into a structure area and fighting fire from there. Some times you have to build line where it is safe and some structures just end up in the wrong place.

                    The individual cabins/houses out in the middle of the Forest or brush lands are on their own. Part of the Fuel.

                    Small towns need to be looked at differently with out putting WLFF at risk.

                    Yarnell had some good possibilities to be protected.
                    I believe a type 2 or 1 IC could have done that on the 30th. That’s my 20/20 hind site any way.

                    Talking with an old friend of mine who spent the last of his Carrier as the Head of Training for the BLM at NIFC I learned a little a couple of weeks ago.

                    The Type 4 and 5 ICs were created in the system to appease the CITY FIRE DEPARTMENTS.
                    When home land security bought into ICS every thing changed.

                    So a Capitan on a Engine could be classed as a IC with out the S-courses that normally went with IC 3,2.1’s They wanted to insure the name went with the job did not have to be only WL Fire had to cover Structure fires. There lies the HYBIRD FF.

                    NOTE–a IC3 in the Federal system in the 90s was a basic crew boss and some times squad boss. Small fires from a tree to 10 Acers some times more but very seldom. You have from 1 to 15 people under you. They increased the IC3 level up to Sector Boss old—ICS STLD Strike Team Leader. then dropped the qualifications back to the IC 4 and 5 which is a small 1 to 3 resources fire.

                    Look at the makeup of the Yarnell Hill Fire and you have your answer why it went to hell.
                    The level of ability at the IC5. IC4, and IC3 are just not sufficient to deal with the complexity they had.

                    • Joy A. Collura says

                      actually blm do not use dozers ? localdaid it was not them so where would a foia come from…which entity has that

                    • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

                      Reply to Diane Lomas post on
                      August 30, 2016 at 9:26 am

                      >> Diane Lomas said…
                      >>
                      >> Muzzy mentions that the YHF had
                      >> one or two bulldozers on it.
                      >>
                      >> Do we know the names of these
                      >> drivers and their qualifications?

                      For the FIRST dozer… NAMES, yes.
                      For the SECOND dozer… NAMES, no.

                      For BOTH dozers… QUALIFICATIONS, no.

                      NONE of these ‘dozer operators’ were ever ‘interviewed’ by any investigators.

                      ** THE FIRST DOZER
                      ** ( FROM YAVAPAI COUNTY )

                      Joy A. Collura obtained ( via an Arizona Open Records Request ) the actual ‘time sheets’ for that FIRST Yavapai County dozer that arrived in Yarnell on Sunday morning, June 30, 2013.

                      That FIRST dozer was a Yavapai County Dozer being ‘contracted’ by Arizona Forestry to work the Yarnell Hill Fire.

                      Here is a ‘text’ version of that ‘timesheet’ for the dozer that was working the south end of the Yarnell Hill fire on June 30, 2013. There were TWO ‘shifts’ worked for that dozer on Sunday by TWO different ‘operators’. Operator Paul Morin is the one who showed up with the dozer on Sunday morning ( with no red-card qualifications and no handheld radio )… and he ‘operated’ that dozer until 9:00 PM Sunday night. 2 hours later, at midnight on Sunday, Operator Donald Rezzonico took over and continued ‘operating’ that dozer all night and on until 2:00 PM the next day.

                      The actual ‘timesheet’ obtained by Joy A. Collura from Yavapai County…
                      ——————————–
                      Dozer: Cat D7R
                      Serial # 06562
                      From: Yavapai County

                      Shift 1:
                      START: June 30 – 0700 (7 AM)
                      STOP: 2100 (9 PM)
                      Hrs: 14
                      Operator: Paul Morin

                      Shift 2:
                      START: July 1 – 0000 (Midnight)
                      STOP: 1300 (2 PM)
                      Hrs: 13
                      Operator: Donald Rezzonico
                      ———————————–

                      This FIRST dozer ( and its operator on Sunday, Paul Morin ) was the one that ended up on the ‘missing persons’ list following the deployment.

                      When DPS Ranger 58 Helicopter was given permission to take off and begin searching for the ‘missing persons’ at 5:16 PM… they were told ( we still don’t know by who ) to look for 20-25 people… including an entire Hotshot crew, a Division Supervisor, and a ‘bulldozer’ and its operator(s).

                      No one seemed to know WHERE that FIRST bulldozer or its operator, Paul Morin, was following the deployment… and so they were both added to the ‘missings persons’ list following the deployment and Ranger 58 was told to ‘look for them’ as well.

                      ** THE SECOND DOZER ( MAY MACHINERY )

                      As per Yarnell Fire Resource Order E-39, the SECOND Dozer for Yarnell wasn’t even ‘ordered’ until just after NOON ( 12:05 PM ) on Sunday, June 30, 2016, just 5 minutes after Air Attack ‘Bravo 3’ ( Rusty Warbis and Paul Lenmark ) had arrived over the fire to take over the Air Operations… and the first VLAT drops were made in coordination with SPGS2 Darrell Willis to try and protect the Double-Bar-A Ranch in Peeples Valley.

                      That SECOND dozer resource order was then ‘fulfilled’ with a Type 2 dozer from private contractor ‘May Machinery’ and was listed as follows…

                      DOZER – T2 – AZA1S – May Machinery – 05142 (1996 CAT D5HWL )

                      That SECOND dozer ( only ordered at 12:05 PM Sunday ) had a ‘Needed’ time in the resource order of 1400 ( 2:00 PM ) that same Sunday… and then an ‘Assigned’ time in the resource order of 1357 ( 1:37 PM )… but is not actually ‘seen’ arriving in Yarnell until 4:36:10 PM… just about 3 minutes before Jesse Steed would make his first ’emergency’ radio call from out in the box canyon.

                      That SECOND dozer was captured in Panebeaker Air Study video 20130630_1643_EP passing by the camera setup there on Hays Ranch Road at 4:36:10 PM… heading WEST towards the Model Creek Elementary School Incident Command Post ( ICP ).

                      The resource orders do not say who the OPERATOR was to be for that SECOND dozer… but there is a good chance it was one of the co-owners/operators of ‘May Machinery’ itself… either Mr. Bill May or Mr. William May III ( the 3rd ).

                      Regardless of whether the ‘operator names’ are known or not for either dozer… NONE of the actual ‘qualifications’ for ANY of those dozer operators has ever been established.

                      The only thing that IS known is that the operator who came with the FIRST ‘Yavapai County’ dozer, under an Inter-Agency agreement, showed up in Yarnell WITHOUT the proper red-card quallifications to be operating a dozer for Arizona Forestry.

                      That is why SPGS1 Gary Cordes had to then ‘baby-sit’ that dozer as DOZB/HEQB that morning… and got ‘stuck’ doing that until he could get Blue Ridge Hotshot Cory Ball to ‘relieve’ him of that job circa 10:30 AM Sunday.

                    • Bob Powers says

                      There was ONE Dozer on the 30th.
                      Another one showed up later.

                      I always believed there were more on contract that were not that far away. I do not think there was a priority set the night of the 29th for more than one dozer. Which became another a big mistake.

                      The people in charge were just not doing their job or were just over run with any ability to accomplish an objective.

                    • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

                      Reply to Bob Powers post on
                      August 30, 2016 at 12:54 pm

                      >> Bob Powers said…
                      >>
                      >> There was ONE Dozer on the 30th.
                      >> Another one showed up later.

                      Yes. That SECOND Dozer that showed up in Yarnell at 4:36 PM ( just 3 minutes before Jesse Steed’s first emergency radio call ) wasn’t even ORDERED until 12:05 PM on Sunday, June 30, 2013.

                      That’s the dozer resource order that was ‘filled’ with the one from private contractor “May Machinery”.

                      The one ( and ONLY ) dozer they had to use since that morning was the one that came from Yavapai County… and showed up with operator Paul Morin who had no red-card and no radio.

  8. WantsToKnowTheTruth says

    **
    ** BLUE SCREEN

    As the ‘principal photography’ phase of this ‘Granite Mountain’ fillum comes
    to a close this week… interesting PUBLIC photo has been posted by one of
    the ’emgmedia’ camera persons who has been posting photos from the
    film sets all along.

    It’s a photo of a MASSIVE BLUE SCREEN that was set up OUTDOORS for
    a scene filmed something this last week…

    https://www.instagram.com/p/BJWQ8ucj0f9/?taken-by=emgmedia

    Probably had something to do with the filming of the actual ‘deployment/burnover’.

    That’s the only scene I can think of that might have required this massive effort and
    this massive expense. You’d need PLENTY of room to film the actual ‘deployment/burnvoer’
    scene ( involving 19 actors at once )… but you would still need all that BLUE SCREEN
    so the CGI people can ‘do their thing’ later and try to make it look realistic.

    And when you can’t find a studio big enough… you just ‘make your own’ ( OUTDOORS ).

    Another ‘grip’ working on the ‘fillum’ who has also been posting PUBLIC photos
    from the ‘set’ all along has now also posted something which suggests that HE
    will be officially ‘off the clock’ this coming Friday, September 2, 2016… and then
    ( for him ) it’s off to ‘vacation’ in Canada and Europe…

    https://www.instagram.com/p/BJdn8qHjMGv/?taken-by=darineppich

    That also matches original reports that this ‘principal photography’ phase was
    only going to last until the first week of September.

    • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

      And the ‘fanclub’ for actor Taylor Kitsch ( who has been playing deceased Granite Mountain Hotshot Christopher MacKenzie ) is still ‘hard at work’ scouring the InterWeb ( as they have been for months now ) for anything and everything they can find that either depicts or mentions their heart-throb ( Kitsch ) and his association with this GM ‘fillum’ thing.

      And they really are quite GOOD at it ( finding everything and anything that is out there ).

      THEY are now ‘reporting’ that there have already been some ‘wrap parties’ this weekend.

      Some of the actors playing some of the deceased GM Hotshots are already ‘moving on’ to their next projects… so that’s just another indicator that any/all scenes involving ALL of the deceased GM Hotshots are now ‘in the can’ and these actors are free to move on.

      This ‘Fan Club’ is up to two complete ‘threads’ about the GM ‘fillum’ alone… with many ‘pages’ for each thread. Their ‘second’ thread is up to 11 ( Eleven ) full PAGES now… and here is a direct link to that ‘page’ and the most recent ‘updates’ from THEM regarding what is happening there in New Mexico…

      http://www.fanforum.com/f309/%5Bgranite-mountain%5D-thread-2-because-his-mustache-game-strong-63175134/index11.html

      From that PUBLIC fan-forum ‘page’…
      ———————————————————————————-
      Comment from Taylor Kitsch fan: worthyoflove
      Today – Sunday, August 28, 2016 – at 2:39 PM

      Definitely a wrap party last night, Miles was there…mustache shave watch is on.

      Quote:( from Producer Ellen Schartz’s PUBLIC Instagram page )…

      ellenhschwartz
      #granitemountain #wrapparty #almostdone #santafe #newmexico

      “Almost Done”

      Quote: ( from actor Alex Russell’s PUBLIC Instagram page )…

      alexrussell ( Photo )
      https://www.instagram.com/p/BJqsOmjgZno/?taken-by=alexrussell

      On set in my yellows. Can’t believe this leg of the journey is coming to a close. Truly one of the most incredible and important experiences of my life. The people I’ve met, the beautiful connections I’ve made. Thank you to all #hotshots, to all #wildlandfirefighters and their families. A lot of movies being made about super heroes these days. This is a movie about real life heroes, putting themselves on the line, battling Mother Nature so that we can all rest easy. It’s been my great privilege to be a part of thanking and honoring them through the telling of this story. The story of the #granitemountainhotshots Immeasurable love and respect. #granitemountain
      ———————————————————————————-

      • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

        Direct link to Blacklabel Media Film Company producer ‘Ellen Schwartz’s’ PUBLIC Instagram page… and the photo mentioned above from one of the first ‘wrap parties’ for this Granite Mountain ‘fillum’ principal photography phase…

        https://www.instagram.com/p/BJpFnpKg7Bs/?taken-by=ellenhschwartz&hl=en

        According to this PUBLIC photo posted by Producer Ellen Schwartz… this ‘wrap party’ took place 23 hours ago ( Saturday night ) at the Sante Fe Hilton.

        Ellen Schwartz is actually listed as one of the ‘Executive Producers’ for this ‘fillum’ ( there are usually more than one ‘Executive Producers’ for a project like this ).

        Her ‘top level’PUBLIC Instagram HOME page is here…

        https://www.instagram.com/ellenhschwartz/?hl=en

        She had been posting ‘photos’ from the set on a pretty regular basis herself… right up until that time when Josh Brolin posted his PUBLIC ‘Instagram’ attack post against John Dougherty and InvestigativeMEDIA.

        Since then… it seems she ‘stopped’ posting any PUBLIC photos or messages directly related to the film.

        And that would stand to reason.

        She ( as an Executive Producer and responsible for making SURE the ‘investors’ in this film see their expected ROI ( return on investment ) ) might have actually been the one to TOLD actor Josh Brolin to DELETE that ‘attack post’ of his against John Dougherty and InvestigativeMEDIA. ( which Brolin DID do… not even 24 hours after he posted it ).

        If she is the one who TOLD Brolin to take that ‘attack’ post down ( because it wasn’t in the best interests of the film’s investors )… then it stands to reason she would have then ALSO ( herself ) ‘cut back’ on posting any PUBLIC photos from the set or any other PUBLIC information about the ‘filming’.

      • Charlie says

        Maybe those actors and others could all rest easy under better fire management–but except Yarnell==take a look, half the homes burned down and 110 deaths of locals since the fire. Talk about mismanagement of a wild land fire–this one wins a huge prize–history making–A killer managed fire–killed the crew of 19 and burned down half the town. Now if that is not a boondoggle nothing is. What am I missing as to the big heroics we heard of here? Definitely the grunts are heroes even though they blindly followed the blind. But several here are implicated every bit as much I think even more that driver that “accidentally” wrecked a bus after 28 hours without sleep and having had indulged in drugs not long before. The boss that died must not have been hungover as well for either considering that he would allow someone that depleted to drive his crew. That reminds me of the boss that ordered a depleted and hungover GMHS crew into a dangerous entanglement that made it impossible to outrun a wild fire he knew was about to change. His ordering their dash against time and natures wind changes was a foolish act that needs complete examination and explanation.

        • Charlie says

          Something that ought to be cleared up is that the wind had changed much earlier than what we hear posted. It did change sooner but the terrifying rate that it took came later in the day. At a bit after one on top of the Weavers-I could already feel a slight change with the calm before the storm we were watching advance our way. It was one damn good reason to go back and fetch Joy and believe me my mind was on high alert due to what was bound to happen. You see, where the GMHS were and where Joy was she could not detect any breeze or wind at all–but at the top of the Weavers, the wind factor was easily felt.

          Surely the men had been advised by radio that the wind was changed–but when. Do only the bosses get this info and how willing was Marsh and Steed to share it with the other men? Maybe Donut could tell us their attitude in those instances. Oh, I forgot, he forgot and is lawyered up as well.

          • Charlie says

            Why would you exit the west side of the Weavers and not the East into the manzanita, catclaw, scrub oak? If you use your binoculars from the Arrowhead Bar and Cafe you can see how sparse the vegetation is on the west side of the Weavers. Duh–with a fire raging to the East Side, winds changing direction, you do not drop down in a box canyon with 60%slope and manzanita so dense you have to literally crawl through it in places and reverse and go around other places. No sprinting, no damn way a bear goes through even unless he wallows across some of it. How do Joy and I know? We went through that shit above Helms, very near where GMHS were entrapped in the death basin. Her photos, time and date stamped do not lie.

            Joy was like the GMHS though, a mind that toward the fire and Helms was an option that would get them out quicker. Hot, 106 F , tired, and watching that fire explode then head off toward People’s Valley gave them no mind that all hell could break loose with an ascending storm coming from Prescott area.

            If you want to understand a storm, know that once you feel a calm in this country, generally on the high desert with that storm visible–give yourself between 15 to 30 minutes until the winds from the storm will pick up and come at you. That was why I had panic in my heart once watching the exploding fire and the storm coming our way. I can say this because as a youngster, we lived on the high deserts and when we saw a pending storm and the calm before it we knew thirty minutes was our max time to have our tent buckled down, our clothes hanging out put away and even our tin utensils put up else they would be gone in the wind — sort of like the truth up to lately about the Yarnell Hill Fire.

  9. WantsToKnowTheTruth says

    **
    ** PERSONAL RECORDING DEVICES ARE ALLOWED AT THE
    ** UPCOMING YARNELL PROPERTY DAMAGE APPEAL ‘ORAL ARGUMENTS’

    At 11:00 AM on Wednesday, September 21, 2016, Presiding Judge Ken E. Cattani ( and/or Acting Presiding Judge Lawrence F Winthrop ) will hear “Oral Arguments” in Case Docket number “CA-CV 15-0349”, with Case Name “ACRI et al. v. STATE et al.”

    Case Name: “ACRI et al. v. STATE et al.” ( Yarnell Hill Property Damage suit with 165+ plaintiffs )
    Case Docket Number: CA-CV 15-0349

    This is the appeal of the original “Property Damage” lawsuit(s) with 165+ ( ONE HUNDRED AND SIXTY FIVE plus ) separate ‘plaintiffs’ all suing for ‘damages’ as a result of negligence on the part of those ‘managing’ the 2013 Yarnell Hill Fire.

    ** RECORDING DEVICES ALLOWED AT ‘ORAL ARGUMENTS’

    From the Arizona ‘Court of Appeals’ website itself… the page that ‘explains’ the ‘Oral Argument’ process…

    http://www.azcourts.gov/coa1/Oral-Arguments

    From that page…
    ————————————————————————————-
    Oral Arguments

    The Court will notify counsel at least 20 days in advance of the setting of oral arguments. Oral arguments set for the next 30 days are listed in the calendar. When oral argument has been granted, the Court generally allows 20 minutes to each of the two sides to the case. When there is more than one party on a side of a case, their respective counsel should decide among themselves how to divide oral argument. It is helpful in such a circumstance to inform the Court at the outset of the argument of the manner in which argument is to be divided.

    Rules for courtroom conduct are here. ( clickable link on page at link above. ).

    The Court makes unofficial digital audio and video recordings of each oral argument, which it maintains until the case to which they relate has been mandated or otherwise closed. These recordings are not created as, and do not constitute, official records of Court proceedings.

    The recordings may be accessed here ( when they become available )…

    http://www.azcourts.gov/coa1/Oral-Argument-Recordings

    Pursuant to the Court’s policy, a VISITOR may use a personal device on his or her person to audio record an oral argument WITHOUT seeking PERMISSION, as long as he or she gives prior notice to the Court or to its staff.

    All OTHERS ( official media, representatives, etc. ) who wish to audio- or video-record or broadcast an oral argument must submit a prior written request and may do so only by order of the Court. Persons using personal recording devices that disrupt the dignity of the proceedings may be ordered to stop the recording.
    ——————————————————————————————

    NOTICE that, unlike other Arizona Court Proceedings, the ‘official recording’ of these ‘Oral Arguments’ is SUPPOSED to be AUTOMATICALLY posted to the above link as soon as there has been a ‘decision’ regarding this ‘Appeal’. It is NOT necessary to submit an Arizona Open Records request to obtain THESE ‘recordings’. They are SUPPOSED to be automatically posted at that PUBLIC link listed above.

    • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

      Reply to Bob Powers post on August 27, 2016 at 7:54 am

      >> Bob Powers said…
      >>
      >> Brought this to top for Rocksteady.

      The original ‘question’ from ‘rocksteady’ was…

      >> On August 24, 2016 at 7:31 am, rocksteady asked…
      >>
      >> Does anyone on here know if CalFire or LA County Fire has a policy
      >> where the FF must wear a shelter?? That is the question..

      And the response was…

      >> On August 27, 2016 at 7:53 am, Bob Powers replied…
      >>
      >> Yes LA County and Cal Fire do
      >> The Structure crews do not they are the ones wearing the Turn Outs,
      >> Running Hose not WLFF.
      >> No gear of any kind under turn out coat.
      >> There is a difference between the two with in the Urban Interface.

      And here again is that ‘photo’ from the recent ‘Sand Fire’ ( the one with the entrapment at the US Forestry Bear Divide Station ) of an LA County FF playing WFF. ( Hybrid FF ).

      This guy is at the end of a hose lay trying to attack a fireline that is suddenly ‘flaring up’ and threatening his life…

      …and he has absolutely NO ‘pack’ or ‘fire shelter’…

      http://photos.dailynews.com/2016/07/photos-deadly-sand-fire-destroys-18-homes-burns-22000-acres/#25

      Photo Caption: Santa Clarita, California. An LA County firefighter finds himself in a tad bit of trouble as flames from the Sand Fire get too close. This was a spot fire that he tried to get to but they had to pull out. This is along Placerita Canyon Road. ( Photo by Mike Meadows ).

      NOTE: At the link above… you may have to scroll down below the TOP photo/slideshow to see that ‘photo number 25’ of the ‘Hybrid’ FF fighting the ‘Sand Fire’.

      • Bob Powers says

        This is what I said WTKTT.

        The person in this picture has City/County Fire truck turn outs heavy pants and Coat,
        Belongs to a Structure Engines used for House Fires. They do not carry Fire Shelters or Packs they very seldom get more than 100 Ft. from there truck.
        LA COUNTY WILD LAND UNITS are like the State and Feds. Two different animals.
        Same organization.

        As well as the picture on the lower Right they are not Wild land FF’s.

        I would agree they are Hybrid FF more to the tune of Structure protection than any thing else.

        We have these guys here in Twin Falls that will lay hose in the city limits to put out Grass and Bruch Fires next to Structures, They go to Wild Fires strictly for the purpose of putting out Structures or Fires around Structures.

        • Bob Powers says

          That Big Blue Pack that the LA County guys are carrying is the Fire Shelter.
          In some of the other Pictures.

          • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

            Yes. Some of the other photos DO show these ‘Hybrid’ guys carrying those ‘Blue Pack’ Fire shelters while they are fighting the fire.

            Pretty inconsistent, though, if you look at other online sites and other photos from this ‘Sand Fire’.

            SOME of seem to be carrying them… SOME aren’t.

            • Bob Powers says

              Good or bad?

              If I did not have to carry one Manditory I would not have chosen to.

              I will say of all the County Departments that I ever worked with LA County was By Far the Best Wildland units in the Country.

              They were top notch back in the 60’s do not expect that’s changed.
              I never considered them HYBIRD’S even to this day.

              LA COUNTY is a highly professional Fire Organization.

              I will leave it at that.

        • Woodsman says

          LA County wildland units are like the state & feds? Two different animals?

          I’ll give you the opportunity to amend that statement before I’m required to thoroughly jump your shit.

          Your move, Mr. Bob.

          Woodsman

          • Bob Powers says

            You did not understand Plain English?

            LA County has Brush Units and Structure units Study the LA county land scape.

            You have unincorporated areas that have Homes on private Land out side city limits and out side State and Federal Land.

            So jump away Mr. City Fireman or are you one of those WTKTT so fondly calls Hybrid I truly begin to wonder?

            • Woodsman says

              Mr. Bob,

              Out of respect for my elders, I’m going to tone down the reaming on this one.

              I’m not a hybrid firefighter & definitely not a “city” firefighter. I have said I’m a reformed hybrid but that’s not exactly true because although I was both wildland & municipal for a period of time, my allegiance began with wildland so I never fully ‘crossed over.’ I have a somewhat unique perspective on the situation because of this & it doesn’t hurt that my position as a paid state forestry technician/wildland firefighter requires that I train municipal folks in wildland fire (it’s written in my annual job description), so I know of which I speak from this perspective.

              Wool doggie! All this time I was under the impression that you were a defender of the US Forest Service (and California specifically) til death do us part, but until now I didn’t realize you were also a defender of city/country hybrid wannabes.

              Your world & what you have known has been systematically destroyed, Bob. The Forest Circus was once a world renowned organization & it exists as a facade of its previous existence today. It still does have some shining stars out there (tru brown) but the organization as a whole has been neutered & destroyed. The USFS sucks but at least it doesn’t suck s bad as the USDI Park Service – oh man, they suck so bad it’s an embarrassment to mankind.

              As a state wildland firefighter, we can actually still get our mission accomplished efficiently. The Forest Circus sits on it’s ass & purposely let’s the fire get huge because of all the bullshit they must go through to get the machine functioning whereas we just put it out. I was Asst Crew Boss in Montana in 2004 where they ordered us off the line & we pleaded to stay because of a small section of unsecured line. We could have handled it with 1 squad & an hours time but were denied. The next day that bitch got out just like we knew it would, ran up on over the Continental Divide, & the Management Team bragged in the next morning briefing that we were now the priority fire in the nation – great job, assholes!

              Most federal organizations want the fire to get big so the big money starts flowing. The hybrids have figured out how to tap into this cash. We don’t get hazard pay or have the many encumbrances or pressures the federales have so we can just do the job the tax payers demand at much lower cost.

              You will never be convinced how bad the feds suck. Not even after they lost most of their own fucking fire station. You will…

              • Woodsman says

                conjure excuse after excuse as to why it happened but it will never be that they suck & become a bloated misguided mismanaged organization riding the coat tails of its successful past.

                The wheels have fallen off the truck, Bob. They have squandered the treasure built by tough men of the past. It’s an absurd embarrassment to forest firefighting. You know it. You know I’m right. I sorry your great former federal agency has ended up in the toilet.

                One only has to review these fires to see it: total failure. Sonny is right and you don’t have to be one of us to figure it out. In fact, it can blind one to acceptance of truth if they are a WFF because of our years of indoctrination. Wildland firefighting is not a high-tech occupation. It would save lives to admit this fact & leave our enormous egos at home when headed to take care of a wildfire. Alas, but we don’t. We all want to stroke our egos, cash the big check, revel in the accolades of hero worship, make the system huge & complicated, & deflect blame for anything that goes wrong anywhere but squarely where it should be. We hold our hands out for more money to solve the problem when the problem cannot be solved with more money.

                The internet has changed everything. The public can plainly see the man behind the curtain. It’s a joke, personally & professionally embarrassing, & a let-down to people who have the money confiscated from them to fill the coffers where our paychecks come from.

                Woodsman

                • Bob Powers says

                  What can I expect from a State Firemen?????

                  Your statements are ABSURD to the maximum degree.

                  While yes the Forest Service has changed it still puts out fire to state they let a fire get big to make money is in its self asinine but then only those out side the Feds like to play that game and it is a game.

                  I am ashamed of you Woodsman you have fallen into the quagmire. But then I am beginning to expect no less from you.

                  I stand on My Principles, experience and knowledge.
                  Those are my assists I do not see what you see nor hear what you say from current USFS Wild Land Fire Fighters.

                  End of Story.

                • Charlie says

                  Thanks Woodsman. Joy and I have learned so much from wild land fire fire fighters. There definitely needs some changes, and Bob does agree that the Yarnell incident was a terrible job of management–even mentioning the expensive and useless dumping of retardant in open territory.

                  As far as the Tenderfoot fire, at first taken care of by the local fire men a back burn that became a major fire effort to control, I can see that allowing city fire men to play wild land fire fighting people is a mistake. The error here allowed power lines to burn, and another major fire that topped the mountain and expanded toward the east and north so that even Peeples Valley became threatened. Wild land fire fighting crews did come in finally to control what was locally started, when it seemed obvious to me they would have been working in different areas, been cognizant of the power lines and many cell towers we have on that mountain and knowing that the fire would be better allowed to flow to the south east as the winds were taking it.

                  I am convinced now that once a fire is started in the wild lands, then only the wild land fire fighter types ought to be on the job.

                  However the locals did create a lot of power line work, cell tower work, burn a few structures and cause tons of retardant to be dropped near the town. They of course believe the retardant is safe, but Sonny knows that is a crock.

                  Then think of all the jobs created for the expanded fire they made. I don’t blame the man that takes orders, but I do blame the people that ordered such.
                  It did add a cost of millions to the tax payer bill.

  10. Joy A. Collura says

    September 21st 2016 11am

    http://apps.supremecourt.az.gov/aacc/1ca/1cacalendar.htm

    http://apps.supremecourt.az.gov/aacc/1ca/1cacalendar.htm

    I ask the WORLD to please be present in person or in prayer for this appeals that it be God’s will to GO TO TRIAL — I WANT AS MANY PEOPLE WE CAN GET TO BE THERE SO THE JUDGE SEE THE IMPORTANCE THAT “SAFETY MATTERS”—if it goes to trial — hopefully I will hook up with a professional podcast person and make a non-profit show and we will go through from day one to now all the details I got behind the scenes and if it is a non-commercial purpose foia we discuss- I will STILL state my questions public and let you know which answers requires others to do a commercial one…I cannot tell you HOW MUCH information I hold on to and some say I thought you were transparent…MY FIRE ACCOUNT has been transparent and there are some I keep in the loop on behind the scenes but some I do not because I learned they carry agendas and angles. However my gut feels the information I hold I will not only SHARE IT but I will give you every tiny detail how it came to be…my hopes in it is for people who were THERE know I know what I know and its only due time they can keep withholding…

    Paul Morin…you wanna start telling us your activities and account on 6-30-13?…

    Musser and Hall?

    Just saying…

    In these podcasts I will take you to the people and the places—
    where the very spot retardant was dropped to who is still alive and how they are today…

    By the time the podcast is done you will KNOW Yarnell and the people and places and you will know what I know on the fires—

      • Joy A. Collura says

        and I won’t need Hollywood to get the message out either WHO the GMHS were—I have documented THAT area extremely well and when I have stopped gathering you will know the men probably better than some of their loved ones…and again I am properly documenting them and I WILL be expressing my humble opinion with much purity and NO angle and NO agenda and I will not change YCSO to Yarnell officers…it will not be Blue River..it WILL BE Blue Ridge…and it will be real and it will be raw…and yes it takes time because I know we live in a sue happy world and I have to present it with purity and enough documents so these TWISTERS have no chance at their games…when it is presented there will be NO WAY anywhere can sue me…and I turned down tv shows and movies and I will present that during podcasts who I turned down with linked documentation….and no actors will be involved making a buck off a tragedy and then maybe those people will be cornered to SPEAK UP that indeed NEED TO…

        • Joy A. Collura says

          when that time arrives…I feel I gave YOU over three years to tell your story-

          So do not get all “oh-why-me. why now!”

          You will have had your time but you OPTED to SPEAK UP when cornered-

          the world will see it that way—because that is the only way it could be seen.

          • Joy A. Collura says

            I will also with documentation BREAK DOWN fact vs fiction in ALL books that are published already about YHF…these podcasts will be PUBLIC and I will give ANYONE permission to use the information as you need to PROPERLY ASSESS THE YHFires…they cannot be used to FIT YOUR NARRATIVES OR GAINFUL NEEDS— in any gainful profitable cause(s)

            • rocksteady says

              Maybe I am just confused but I can not tell which case on which date and which court room you are referring to.. Help!!

              • Joy A. Collura says

                that was why I placed links in there-

                this is the properties that burned down 6-30-13 that was Dismissed late Spring 2016…appeals date…

                COURTROOM 2
                2nd Floor, 1501 W. Washington, Phoenix, Arizona

              • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

                Reply to rocksteady post on
                August 25, 2016 at 1:49 pm

                >> rocksteady said…
                >>
                >> Maybe I am just confused but I can not tell
                >> which case on which date and which court
                >> room you are referring to.. Help!!

                At this link ( posted above )…

                http://apps.supremecourt.az.gov/aacc/1ca/1cacalendar.htm

                If you ‘scroll down’ to ‘September 21, 2106’ ( Department ‘E’ )… you find the following ‘schedule’ now being PUBLICLY posted…

                ———————————————————-
                Arizona – Court of Appeals – Division One Schedule(s)

                Calendar for…

                WEDNESDAY, SEPTEMBER 21, 2016 – COURTROOM 2

                2nd Floor, 1501 W. Washington, Phoenix, Arizona

                Department E
                Oral Argument
                Kent E Cattani, Presiding Judge
                Lawrence F Winthrop, Acting Presiding Judge

                O/A 9:30 AM —- 1 CA-CV 15-0291 – POWER RD-WILLIAMS v. GILBERT et al.
                O/A 10:15 AM — 1 CA-CV 15-0357 – LEVINE v. PHOENIX/SUNS
                O/A 11:00 AM — 1 CA-CV 15-0349 – ACRI et al. v. STATE et al.
                Conference —– 1 CA-CV 15-0572 FC – TILSON v. MORRISON
                Conference —– 1 CA-CV 15-0603 – MOORE v. PARHAM et al.

                —————————————————————–

                So THIS is the ‘relevant’ entry now showing on the Court Calendar…

                O/A 11:00 AM — 1 CA-CV 15-0349 – ACRI et al. v. STATE et al.

                O/A means “Oral Arguments’.

                So the ‘English’ would be…

                At 11:00 AM on Wednesday, September 21, 2016, Presiding Judge Ken E. Cattani ( or Acting Presiding Judge Lawrence F Winthrop ) will hear “Oral Arguments” in Case Docket number “CA-CV 15-0349”, with Case Name “ACRI et al. v. STATE et al.”

                Case Name: “ACRI et al. v. STATE et al.” ( Yarnell Hill Property Damage – 165+ plaintiffs )

                Case Docket Number: CA-CV 15-0349

                This is the appeal of the original “Property Damage” lawsuit(s) with 165+ ( ONE HUNDRED AND SIXTY FIVE plus ) separate ‘plaintiffs’ all suing for ‘damages’ as a result of negligence on the part of those ‘managing’ the 2013 Yarnell Hill Fire.

                The actual ‘Case Docket’ ( what the public is allowed to see, anyway ) is here…

                http://apps.supremecourt.az.gov/aacc/appella/1CA%5CCV%5CCV150349.PDF

                There are currently only 8 ( EIGHT ) pages in this PUBLIC docket file. The first page doesn’t show much and you have to ‘scroll down’ to see the rest.

                The case that is ‘on appeal’ ( as per the docket file above ) is…

                ————————————————-
                MAR
                CV2014-007698
                Tort: Non – Motor Vehicle; Property Damage
                J Richard Gama, Authoring Judge of Order

                ————————————————-

                That’s the case from the ‘lower court’ ( Maricopa County Court ) where this Judge Gamma guy wouldn’t even let it come to a trial.

                He ‘threw it out’ by saying that the plaintiff’s had ‘no case’ because he ruled that Arizona Forestry never has even one single atomic molecule of responsibility to EVER lift a finger to protect any citizen’s LIFE or PROPERTY.

                A lot of the ‘plaintiffs’ aren’t even suing for ‘property damage’, per se, such as complete home reimbursement. SOME of the ‘plaintiffs’ are suing specifically because of the totally botched EVACUATION notices ( and/or lack thereof ) and seeking compensation for the ‘personal possessions’ that were lost because Arizona Forestry didn’t even give them enough fucking time to SAVE those things… whereas a more ‘timely’ and ‘competent’ evacuation notice WOULD have given them time to do so. This includes CARS and things that some people didn’t even have time to drive out of the danger zone because of the botched evacuation notices.

                Judge Gamma ‘acknowledged’ those ‘plaintiffs’ when he threw the whole case out and ALSO ruled that Arizona Forestry never had ( or EVER has ) one single atomic molecule of responsibility to NOTIFY any ‘citizens’ or even ‘law enforcement’ about ANYTHING… even if they know damn well that it’s time for people to get out of harms way.

                This upcoming ‘hearing’ ( and that’s all it is ) is NOT going to decide the 165+ consolidated “Property Damage” claims themselves.

                This is ONLY about them ( the appeals court ) deciding whether or not Judge Gama was full of shit and acting ‘above his authority’ with those rulings ( since there are Arizona State Constitutional issues involved )… and that these poor people really do simply deserve to have their “day in court”… win or lose.

                If Judge Gammas decision is ‘upheld’… that will be historic… because from that moment on it is now the ‘law of the land’ in Arizona that Arizona State Forestry is NEVER required to EVER lift a finger to either PROTECT any citizen’s LIFE or PROPERTY… and NEVER required to tell anyone anything regarding when it would be a good idea to ‘evacuate’.

                And if they ever DO… then they are NOW automatically committing ‘negligence’ because they are not SUPPOSED to. Not EVER.

                Actually… whichever way this upcoming decision goes… it’s going to be “Historic”.

                  • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

                    When the 165+ ( ONE HUNDRED AND SIXTY FIVE plus ) cases originally got ‘consolidated’ into one single case back down at the Maricopa County Court level… plaintiff “Gordon Acri” was simply the first name on the list of plaintiffs… when listed in ALPHABETICAL order.

                    So from then on… the NAME of the ‘consolidated’ Property Damage lawsuits just became…

                    ACRI et al. v. STATE et al”

                    The ‘et al’ after ACRI still represents the other 164 original individual lawsuits.

                    • Joy A. Collura says

                      if you want to know more…let me know…otherwise I am handwriting 80 locals to let them know the importance of attendance for 9-21-16 11am so I am not on this page but looking up PO BOXES to mail these out later- I am hoping any of you reading this MARK THAT DATE on ANY of your social media spots because I don’t do social media and I want the NUMBERS there- alot of people work and cannot be there…

                  • Joy A. Collura says

                    ACRI.

                    don’t mind me. I am very ill this hour. However I want you in another country to know the people…

                    ACRI is Gordon Acri. He lives by me in Congress in a stonewall castle he built because his little girl drew it and said this is her dream home and he built it using local material in making it.

                    he was one of the first to be able to SEE the damage of the fire:

                    Wed Jul 3, 2013 11:55 PM
                    As investigators began piecing together the events that led to the catastrophe, an Arizona Republic reporter ventured behind the fire lines with a resident whose property sustained heavy damage.

                    “Look at the cars. There’s nothing left of them,” said Gordon Acri as he drove down what he said was Lakewood Drive in Glen Ilah, on the southern fringe of Yarnell. Acri, a contractor, was just beginning to build his dream home, was granted access to the area to retrieve his grader, a piece of heavy equipment used to smooth out land.

                    When Acri got to his land, his grader appeared untouched, but it wouldn’t start. A cement mixing truck he owned was torched.

                    “This was like Disneyland before,” he said. “It was a paradise.”

                    He surveyed what is still a spectacular view of the Valley framed with a magnificent blue sky, south of his property.

                    “Not a damn thing left,” Acri said.

                    Acri visited another home that was scorched a couple of days earlier to retrieve a friend’s medical supplies. He said a house his friend was working on was diminished to “a stack of bricks.”

                    A cat somehow survived the blaze and was hiding in an adjacent lot, even though metal tool sheds had melted into what Acri described as a “puddle of aluminum.”

                    “It’s incredible the heat that was in that fire,” he said. “I don’t see how anything could survive.

                    “The town was just like Roman candles going off everywhere and flare-ups from propane tanks. There had to be at least 15 propane tanks that I heard. And you hear the gas go and then you hear the explosion, and you see the ball of fire.”

                    Acri said he was on a hill east of the town when he saw the wall of fire move through.

                    “When the wind changed, it just stopped that wall of fire that was heading right for Main Street,” he said. “You can’t imagine that much force just being redirected by (the) changing direction of the wind.”

                    “It was just total fire everywhere,” he said. “I can’t even describe it.”

                    The glimpse of a random damage pattern comes as sheriff’s officials expressed concerns about whether residents could have been injured or killed if they refused to evacuate.

                    Residents were asked to call a hotline to check on whether their property was damaged, but the line also serves as a way for sheriff’s deputies to account for those residents.

              • Charlie says

                WTKTT is always on top of things. Thanks for your assertions. We are much on the same page, you quite a degree above me on abilities.

                So I make an opinion–Marsh and Steed after all evidence is in, are murderers, they killed 17 souls by their ignorance and hope to impress their bosses and the world by risking those young lives. It would have worked had they not killed their men by unduly risking their lives. Of course, they would not have done this dastardly deed, except they had been chided to do so. See, the world, especially the boys that were involved, and they are high and mighty, do not want this truth out, simply because they are implicated as well.

                Many will say FU Sonny. I know, but I smile and say, hey, I saw what they did see, and some 40 minutes later went back to retrieve a hard head with her boots off waiting to do exactly what they were soon to do and from the very spot on the two track they went down into that death trap.

                I saw that the other day in a kid of 24 treating an old man of 72 like shit because he had a badge and an older man Morales treating this same person with due respect. I think the younger man in time will understand, even if he has taken a life. But to take 17 lives is even a greater burden.

                • Charlie says

                  To add to the sadness of this all is a movie making a goddess out of Amanda Marsh and a hero our of Eric. Truly they both, after most revelations are in, reveal the real motives are exposed. Eric wanted to be Willis number 2, and Amanda wants to portray that image. But Eric could never be half of Willis. Many times I have said Willis had much to do with this, but my mind tells me that I am wrong. Something tells me Willis trained these fellows right, and had nothing to do with causing the deaths, even remotely,

                  I had the number 19 floating over my head the Christmas night that Joy and I hiked up to the two track and above that to honer the 19. Joy has that photo and took it after she said I see the number 19 above your shoulder then I said take a photo. It turned out dimer than when she saw it, but very real.

                  But I apologize to Willis, because my heart says this is a true person, and some other asshole he would like to kill caused this tragedy/

                  • Charlie says

                    This new hybrid generation of wild land fire fighters. They believe the garbage that their leaders are invincible Greek Gods of Wild Land Fire Fighting so that their brains go to sleep. Edgar Allen Poe would love this shit and make another world horror seller book out of it. Good thing this was not where Marsh, Steed and the bosses killed prisoners or the book would have doubled in mind control sales.

                    How do you kill 17, unless there is mind control issue? You must obey strictly obey orders daily. And to emphasize that, many times you are ordered to do 10 or 30 at anytime just to see if you will obey those daily orders.

    • Joy A. Collura says

      on Sat, Aug 27, 2016 at 1:58 AM I received a beautiful touching message as I was to do my vomit session (daily and throughout the day always to look forward to at no notice) but in that message I want the world to recognize why I am still here and what’s the purpose and this person noted it:

      “….You and I both know the ‘movie business’……That’s how the ‘movie business’ goes and people who are
      not familiar with it are the ones who end up thinking it was all some kind
      of cathartic experience and that they have made “friends for life”.

      But nothing can make the Yarnell Hill Tragedy ‘go away’.

      Books will come… and books will go.
      Movies will come… and movies will go.

      But learning the REAL TRUTH about what REALLY HAPPENED that day is
      still the only thing that represents the best chance for all the firefighters
      of TODAY and the FUTURE of making sure it never happens again
      to THEM the way it did that terrible day in June of 2013.

      You are someone who has ALWAYS understood this, Joy.

      You didn’t ASK to become one of the last persons to see and talk to these
      men before they burned to death.

      You didn’t ASK to become one of the only persons alive who actually
      ‘experienced’ the same ‘conditions’ that day… and saw what those men
      saw… and walked where they walked just before they would all die.

      But you also have ALWAYS known that what happened that day should
      NEVER happen again and that there has always been a HIGHER PURPOSE
      to trying to ‘figure it out’ than just wallowing in self-pity and trying to ‘fix’
      one’s own personal PTSD or ‘feelings’ about it all.”

      —————————————————–
      ————————————————=-=

      the rest of the message was a tear jerker and appreciated yet remains private…
      bottom line KEEPING PEOPLE ALIVE matter to me…that’s WHY I am still here. Trying to get the ONES who are STILL ALIVE who withhold their accounts to SPEAK UP!

      thank you for recognizing that through my adversities and poor health and having to shelf the vanity in this and never deny anyone who has come our way so they can learn and assess for their own self and guide them where to gain their own documented information- there were many times because I have this pressurized obstruction of a mess in the forefront that swells my entire body with fluid that I wanted to for vanity sake ‘hide out’ but all I can do is buy a NEWme bodyweight poster and do the work- place one foot in front of the other and do the cardio at min. 3-4 times a week with an ongoing up and down fever and some bad shit vomiting episodes that take its toll on me. If I do the work than I know I have done my best even if I look so not right as I use to be…I know I did the work each week…and I say that about this fire too. Each week I have done the best I could for what was at hand…I just sat and wrote 80 individual people because that was all I could afford for envelopes and such but I wish I could of sent all the people we helped direct which was almost 500 people but I wrote the 80 who I felt needed to know I will BE THERE 9-21 for them. IT MATTERS! Attendance does matter because I also know this Michael Parrish is good and he IS charismatic and this is not a lawyer up against a jury but a judge—- just this Spring 2016 I dined at a spot with some high up lawyers and they told me it is not just Prescott the nepotism/crony ways- it is all over…and they pretty much know they have to do their best/all each case full well knowing when he walked in that door he saw WHAT lawyer and WHAT judge and knew he was screwed…so since there is no jury in this at this point IT MATTERS ATTENDANCE AND I HOPE ANYONE WITH SOCIAL MEDIA gets this message out for me…please….IT MATTERS…not so much for my life but to the many lives who fight fires—

  11. WantsToKnowTheTruth says

    **
    ** BEAR DIVIDE STATION ‘ENTRAPMENT’ – MORE INFO

    >> On August 24, 2016 at 6:05 pm, Bob Powers said…
    >>
    >> WTKTT
    >> for some more clarity on the Compound.
    >> My friend past HS Supr.

    Just to be clear… this ‘former Superintendent’ you are talking to was actually a ‘Superintendet’ for the ‘Bear Divide Hotshots’ organization itself, yes?

    >> Bob Powers also said…
    >>
    >> The propane tank is sitting behind the Parking Garage.

    Yes. Only 19 feet from it.

    Google Earth indicates the propane tank at the Bear Divide Station was
    about 16 feet in length, and about 3 and 1/2 feet wide… and is only 19
    feet from the edge of the closest building ( parking garage? ).

    According to the GASTEC company… a 16 foot long by 3 1/2 foot wide
    ( horizontal ) propane tank IS, in fact, able to hold 1,000 gallons of propane.

    https://www.gasteconline.com/tank-chart.php
    —————————————————————
    1,000 Gallon Propane Tanks

    Common Uses: Whole home systems, home heating, generators, pool heat.

    Commercial Uses: Heating, commercial cooking, dry cleaning, crop drying and temp heating.

    Size and Capacity: This tank is approximately 3 1/2 feet tall/wide by 16 feet
    long and will hold 800 gallons when filled to 80% capacity, 1,000 gallons
    at 100% capacity.

    —————————————————————

    >> Bob Powers also said…
    >>
    >> The large building to the right is the Office, Mess hall and Barracks.

    Yes. All ‘connected’ to each other so basically all just ‘one building’.

    >> Bob Powers also said…
    >>
    >> They did not burn.

    And a damn good thing… because that’s where those 14 firefighters became ‘entrapped’ as the entire Bear Divide compound ‘burned over’.

    With all those tall trees ( some of them just FEET away ) from that ‘larger building’… a few more airborne embers and/or a little more ember wash across that NARROW parking lot… and this ‘story’ could have easily turned tragic.

    I am as glad as I can possibly be that no one is currently trying to rent a ‘Toyota Center’ there in northern Los Angeles or Santa Clarita… and having to check Vice President Joe Biden’s ‘schedule’.

    But it WAS an ‘entrapment’ involving 14 firefighters… and it still deserves to be ( properly ) investigated.

    >> Bob Powers also said…
    >>
    >> There was brush clearance and Roads around them.

    Brush, yes. Trees, no. Very tall… thick with leaves… and some just FEET away from the building.

    Ditto for the ‘residences’ also there on that Bear Divide Station property.

    THEY all burned to the ground.

    >> Bob Powers also said…
    >>
    >> Hope that helps.

    Ask your ‘former HS Superintendent’ friend if he is aware of there ever being a discussion about ‘firewising’ that US Forestry compound… especially the area where they were ‘renting out’ those ‘residences’.

    Only 4 of the 5 ‘residences’ and/or ‘slabs/hookups’ were actually ‘occupied’ on July 23, 2016.
    Whatever was there ( in that area of the compound ) burned to the ground.

    ** CONFIRMATION OF ENTRAPMENT

    As it turns out… there are MANY online articles and video interviews with the firefighters who actually LOST their rental residences there on the grounds of the US Forestry compound.

    And in some of these articles and videos… they basically tell the same story that the SAFENET does ( but with some slight discrepancies as to the TIME the entrapment/burnover actually took place there at that US Forestry Bear Divide Station.

    The two firefighters who were ‘involved’ in the entrapment who have give the most ‘interviews’ so far are US Forestry employees Ramon Chavez and James Robledo. The only other Firefighter who has been named as occupying one of the other residences is Sergio Toscano,

    Apparently… Sergio Toscano remained working off somewhere else and was not at the Bear Divide Station when the entrapment/burnover took place… but both Chavez and Robledo definitely WERE there and part of the ‘entrapment’ ( along with the rest of their Engine crew and supposedly ‘some Hotshots’ ).

    Ramon Chavez is the one that the media couldn’t get enough of as far as ‘interviews’ go because he is also the one who lost his home previously to the ‘Station’ fire there in Angeles Forest back in 2009. The media couldn’t resist that and he has been, by far, the one they have wanted to ‘interview’ the most.

    Ramon Chavez was a US Forestry Engine Captain, and he and his wife and 3 children were ‘renting’ one of those ‘double-wides’ there at that Bear Divide Station.

    It appears that James Robelo, who was renting one of the ‘other’ residences there at that station, was NOT an ‘Engine Captain’ like Chavez… but appears to have been assigned to Ramon Chavez’s Engine as a ‘crewman’.

    As both Ramon Chavez and James Robelo tell it… they were off working with their TYPE 3 Engine on other parts of the ‘Sand Fire’ when they were notified ( supposedly by a Helicopter pilot ) that the ‘Sand Fire’ was burning in the direction of that ‘Bear Divide Station’ where they both lived.

    They were both then ( supposedly ) given PERMISSION ( it is not clear by WHO ) to ‘break off’ their line duties and go and try and protect their OWN homes there at the Bear Divide Station.

    They were THERE ( at the Station ) when the fire actually made its run at the Station sometime Saturday.

    They BOTH say that they ( and their entire Engine Crew ) were “trying to defend our own homes right up until the LAST SECOND”.

    The Santa Clarita Valley Signal
    Article Title: Firefighters stood by helplessly as own homes burned
    Published: July 25, 2016 9:37 p.m. – By Jim Holt
    http://www.signalscv.com/section/36/article/154821/

    From that article…
    ————————————————————
    U.S. Forest Service firefighters Ramon Chavez and James Robledo were on the line battling the Sand fire Saturday when they received word from a helicopter pilot that their own homes were in the path of the fire, according to a Chavez family member.

    Five of the 18 structures burned to the ground by the fast-moving brush fire since Friday were dwellings on U.S. Forest Service land that served as homes for Forest Service employees. Four firefighters and one fire technician lived in those dwellings.

    All of the homes exploded in a ball of fire that rolled down Sand Canyon from Bear Divide on Saturday, talking out the USFS homes, a damaging at least two movie ranches and destroying two additional residences.

    “My brother was fighting the fire in Bear Divide when he was given notification from a chopper pilot that my brother’s home was one of the homes threatened,” Chavez’s sister Lucia Reyes told The Signal Monday.

    Chavez and Robledo were given PERMISSION, she said, to fight the fire at their own homes in the Angeles National Forest.

    “How many of his fellow firefighters helped I don’t know, but they also had some help from HOTSHOTS,” she said.

    “They all tried to save his house.

    “They had a good amount of time and a plan that worked in the past but that fire, when it came over the crest, exploded like a fireball and engulfed those houses,” Lucia Reyes said.

    “They watched their houses burn side by side,” she said.

    Chavez, a married father of three whose wife was in San Diego at the time of the fire, and Robledo, married with five kids, ran for shelter at a nearby U.S. Forest Service station, she said.

    A third firefighter, Sergio Toscano, also lost his U.S. Forest Service home, said Forest Service spokesman Nathan Judy.

    “He was on the line fighting the fire,” Judy said, noting Toscano was working with a different crew than the one assigned to Chavez and Robledo.

    Toscano learned later that his house had burned down, Judy said.
    ——————————————————————————–

    So there still MIGHT have been some SBFD ( San Bernadino Fire Department ) Engines or FFs involved in this ‘entrapment’… but information coming from Chavez, Robelo and Chavez’s own sister paints a different picture. That Chavez ( US Forestry Engine Captain ) and Robelo ( US Forestry employee and crewman on Chavez’s engine ) and the REST of Chavez’s US Forestry Engine crew joined forces with some US Forestry HOTSHOTS to try and defend their own homes there on that US Forestry Station (quote) “right up until the last minute”.

    So that ( might ) make this ‘entrapment’ solely US Forestry employees.

    There are already 2 links in this post… so because of the ‘2 link limit’ I’ll post some links to some of the other ( many ) interviews with US Forestry employees Ramon Chavez and James Robelo as ‘Replies’… including the one where James Robledo himself says they became ( his own word ) TRAPPED there for ( in his recollection ) about a half-hour while the fire burned over the Bear Divide Station.

    • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

      Forgot to point out above… even Ramon Chavez’s SISTER says her brother told her that after trying to “defend their homes with the help of some HOTSHOTS” up to the last possible moment… they ended up having to RUN up to the actual ‘Beard Divide Station’ building…

      “Chavez… and Robledo… RAN FOR SHELTER at a NEARBY U.S. Forest Service station, she said.”

      That matches this entry in the SAFENET…

      ——————————————————————————
      Because of the situation and fast moving fire, they only had seconds to enter the Bear Divide Hotshot Quarters. Firefighters had to stay sheltered in place for undetermined about of time do to the intense fire behavior, heat and Hazardous Smoke from 5 residents that caught fire. A Forest Service recreation vehicle was also on fire. Adding to the exposure to Hazardous Material Smoke to all 14 firefighters.

      Once the fire crossed Little Tujunga canyon road from the east and was now posing a threat to the station, a firing operation commenced by that time it was TOO LATE and over the radio the words “RUN RUN RUN”

      All 14 firefighters made it into the Bear Divide Hotshot quarters.
      ——————————————————————————

      There is NO mention in the SAFENET that these ‘firefighters’ might have ALL actually been US Forestry employees… who all eventually became ‘entrapped’ because US Forestry Engine Captain Ramon Chavez and one of his crewman, US Forestry employee James Robledo, had been given PERMISSION to go there and try to defend their OWN homes.

    • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

      ** KHTS RADIO AM 1220
      **
      ** VIDEO INTERVIEW WITH RAMON CHAVEZ, THE CAPTAIN OF
      ** US FORESTRY ENGINE E19-ANF ( ANGELES NATIONAL FOREST ).

      Los Angeles Radio station KHTS AM 1220 had remarkably good coverage of the ‘Sand’ Fire… and this Radio Station has it’s own VIDEO interview team(s) complete with their own ‘flying DRONE cameras’.

      As the ‘Sand Fire’ was nearing full containment… they caught on to the ‘story’ of the US Forestry firefighters who had lost their homes at the Bear Divide Station.

      They they conducted on-camera interviews with BOTH US Forestry Engine ‘E19 – ANF’ ( of the Angeles National Forest ) Captain Ramon Chavez… and one of his crew members, fellow US Forestry employee James Robledo.

      Both Ramon Chavez and James Robledo were part of the ‘entrapment’ that eventually took place there at the Bear Divide Station.

      The KHTS video interviews are actually just PUBLIC ‘YouTube’ videos that they have been posting to their own KHTS ‘YouTube Channel’.

      Here is the link to the on-camera interview with US Forestry E-19-ANF Engine Captain Ramon Chavez.

      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1yKJFvq992c

      And here is a TRANSCRIPT of the part of that VIDEO interview where Chavez describes what happened there at that Bear Divide Station ( including the day BEFORE, Friday ).

      It includes the offset times into the video of some interesting PHOTOS and some VIDEO taken at the Station itself ( some using a DRONE CAMERA ).

      The ‘Interviewer’ was KHTS reporter Drake Hougo.
      Both Ramon Chavez and his wife, Bonnie, are in ‘front of the camera’.

      ——————————————————————————————
      Interviewer: KHTS AM 1220 is beginning a new video series to share the struggles and perseverance of four firefighter familes who lost their homes at the Bear Divide Fire Station to the Sand Fire. To the Chavez family, Saturday, July 23 will be a day they always remember.

      +0:23 – Video shows a still photo of Ramon Chavez’s ‘BALLCAP’ that has an emblem on it that says “Engine 19 – Bear Divide”.

      +0:35 – Video shows a photo of Ramon Chavez’s actual TYPE 3 Engine 19 ( E19 ANF ). The ANF stands for ‘Angeles National Forest’.

      Interviewer: Ramon Chavez, the captain of a Type 3 Fire Engine, was battling the Sand Fire near the ( 14? ) Freeway while his wife, Bonnie, and their three kids were in San Diego. When the wind shifted the blaze began moving towards the Bear Divide Fire Station, threatening the modular residences on the property. Soon after, everything was lost to the fire.

      +0:48 – A pre-burn photo of the grey-with-white-trim trailer that was the Chavez home.
      +0:53 – A photo of the burned Chavez residence.
      +0:54 – Ramon Chavez speaking to the camera…

      Ramon Chavez: We lost our home along with all of our belongings. Everything was a total loss from the fire.

      +1:03 – We now see actual DRONE footage of the burned Chavez residence.

      Ramon Chavez: There at the… uh… station where we lived. We lived on a Forest Service compound and fire station… and the entire compound was impacted. It was a total of five homes that were destroyed. Uhm… one was vacant, and the other four were occupied. Everything was a total loss.”

      +1:11 – Another still photo of another destroyed home at the Bear Divide Station )

      Interviewer: Ramon and his crew did everything they could to save the structures, but the fire was just too big.

      +1:24 – Ramon Chavez speaking to the camera again.

      Ramon Chavez: We pulled off of the line from where we were to go back up to the top to start to basically ‘prep’ and make sure that everything was in place because we… we… uh… anticipated the fire coming up and impacting the compound at some point the following day… which was Saturday ( July 23, 2016 )… which was when the station was… uh… impacted… and that’s when we lost all the homes. We were there… and we did everything we could up until the very last second without compromising our personal safety and the safety of our… our crew.

      +1:35 – Video footage of the Chavez home BEFORE it burned and what appears to be footage of the fire approaching the Bear Divide Station itself. This might have been on Friday afternoon, since Chavez says above that he actually went there to the Bear Divide Station on Friday ‘prep’ in anticipation of what might happen (quote) “The following day” ( Saturday, July 23, 2016 ).

      +1:46 – Interesting video of the compound and more destroyed structures. Lots of smoke. Fading light ( late evening? ) and fires still burning in the debris there.

      The rest of the ‘interview’ focuses on the ‘aftermath’ and how Ramon and Bonnie and their 3 children are doing, and what their ‘plans’ are.

      And the rest of the video is interlaced with more interesting ‘CAMERA DRONE’ footage taken post-burnover there at the Bear Divide Station.
      ————————————————————————————————–

      NOTICE that US Forestry employee Ramon Chavez does NOT mention what he and the other firefighters did once they stopped “defending their homes up until the last second”. In this interview… Chavez himself makes no mention of having to RUN up to the Bear Divide barracks itself in order to survive the burnover.

      But according to Ramon Chavez’s SISTER… she says he told HER that is exactly how they survived that day.

      The NEXT post will be the on-camera interview with the other US Forestry employee, James Robledo, who was a crewman on Chavez’s US Forestry Engine E19-ANF. In THAT interview, Robledo himself says they became ( his word ) “TRAPPED”.

      • Bob Powers says

        Well WTKTT your lack of wild fire understanding is not accurate.

        Green Trees catch fire from Ladder fuels or flames that reach them. With no fuel close to the standing trees no flames reached them around the HS Barracks.
        Blown embers normally do not torch trees alone.

        Now the Trailer/Prefab homes that you can see in the Google Earth 3 together are another matter. Quite a bit of Brush and trees in and behind the Cinderblock fence.
        Once those caught fire the then could and did leap from tree to tree. and caused more damage. You can see the green trees in the after photo.

        Any way the other two homes Cinderblock Construction on the Compound that you can see on google did escape with minor damage to no damage.

        History Fact–Cinderblock fences were put in around Homes on the Angeles NF Stations do to the Rattle Snake Problems, they are every where.

        The people being called crew man that had trailer homes are actually Crew bosses or Squad bosses. The Captain and his Tank Truck Operator Assistant (Called a crewman) No crewman not supervisors have homes they live in the Barracks. I would guess the other two regular homes in the Google were the Superintendent and Asst. Basically Full Time people have access to Homes on a compound. or Trailer pads.
        Not sure if the Trailers were Government owned or private? If you are renting from the Government you call it your home ( just terminology).

        My use of the Propane tank was for orientation only. The heat from a burning structure would possibly cause the tank to explode. Normally they vent unless exposed to direct heat for some time they heat up then vent with more heat they can explode. The key is direct intense heat. A tree burning over them would flame out the leaves and not cause damage to the tank in most cases.

        I guess they could have all deployed Shelters on the Heli port and taken their 50/50 chances. That seems to be their only other alternative at the time.
        .
        Almost forgot yes the Superintendent I talked to and know personally ( he was at the HS reunion this year) was the Superintendent for severial years at Bear Divide. He now lives in Glendale.

        • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

          Thanks for responding… but did you get a chance to ask your ‘friend’ the following question I asked up above?…

          Ask your ‘former HS Superintendent’ friend if he is aware of there ever being a discussion about ‘firewising’ that US Forestry compound… especially the area where they were ‘renting out’ those ‘residences’.

          • Bob Powers says

            I think what you talk about in Fire wise was covered on the Compound annually. My Friend was totally shocked that any thing Burned. The Crew always spent their first month of May doing Brush clearance and grass around the Compound Structures.. Their was as well a Fuel Break around the compound 30 Ft wide as a buffer and location to Back fire This may have been what the crew was waiting to do when the Fire dictated they had no time.

            What is being discussed and re-evaluated in Southern California and the rest of the State is a total revamp of Difensiable space and safe clearance. There was never the homes burned thru the 90’s that is happening to day I understand the Federal Government is revamping the Calculations on the Fire projection charts do to the critical increase in fire spread with the past 10 year drought..

            The State requirements have not changed in 70 Years.
            30 Ft. around Homes and 15 Ft. around out buildings. clearance of 10 ft. around Propane Tanks. Trim trees up 10 Ft off the Ground and remove ladder fuels with in the 30 Ft.

            The New Drought conditions of the past 10 years are dictating a whole new concept in extreme fire and protecting structures.

            I in my 33 carrier never saw the homes that are being destroyed today and the required clearance almost always was enough to save structures. There is a whole new ball game out there and it needs a new strategy. In Prevention and Suppression.

            • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

              Thank you, Bob.

              I agree that new strategies are needs… but they have to be based on new policies as well.

              The only constant is change itself.

              You do have to wonder why they ( Captain Ramon Chavez, Squad leader Robleno, etc. ) waited so long to even attempt whatever firing options were available to them.

              According to US Forestry Engine E19-ANF Captain Ramon Chavez himself… they were perfectly aware that the ‘Bear Divide Station was going to be ( Chavez’s own word ) “impacted” a full day BEFORE the Sand Fire actually arrived there.

              Chavez even says he had left his other line assignment ( with permission ) on Friday, July 22, 2016 to go and do what he called ‘prep work’ at that Bear Divide Station… but no details yet on what that was all about.

              The bottom line is that they waited too long on Saturday, July 22, 2016 and then still brought a knife to a gunfight and tried to battle the oncoming firestorm with hand tools and hoses.

              • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

                Typo above.

                The entrapment/burnover at the US Forestry Bear Divide Station was on Saturday, July 23… not Friday, July 22.

                Ramon Chavez SAYS he went to the Station with his Engine E19-ANF on Friday, July 22, 2016 to do some kind of “prep work”… but the actual burnover and entrapment didn’t actually happen until the next afternoon on Saturday, July 23, 2016.

                • Bob Powers says

                  A Firing Operation has to have a go ahead by overhead.

                  I think some place they said they asked and were denied because the main fire was to far away.

                  Would have to look back at the beginning of this discussion.
                  It may have been on Wildfire today.

                  • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

                    Reply to Bob Powers post on
                    August 26, 2016 at 1:01 pm

                    >> Bob Powers said…
                    >>
                    >> A Firing Operation has to have a go
                    >> ahead by overhead.
                    >>
                    >> I think some place they said they
                    >> asked and were denied because the
                    >> main fire was to far away.
                    >>
                    >> Would have to look back at the beginning
                    >> of this discussion.

                    I think you might be referring to something that Robert the Second ( RTS ) said further down in this ‘Chapter 23’… in-between his current fire assignments…

                    That ‘comment’ from RTS is here…

                    http://www.investigativemedia.com/please-begin-yarnell-hill-fire-chapter-xxiii-here/#comment-345005

                    And here is what he seemed to ‘know’…
                    —————————————————
                    On August 20, 2016 at 8:59 am
                    Robert the Second ( RTS ) said…

                    WTKTT, yes, the video clip from the HS Crew is only 6 seconds. I’m sure there are more. I sent it to you with hopes you’d be able to post it on IM. The Corrective Action by Pete Duncan within the SAFENET was nothing more than a rephrasing of the event and what occurred. It appears this one may be on its way to a coverup. I heard the HS wanted to fire off around the station early and were told it was too soon. Big mistake. It took less than 30 seconds to run up a chute at them.
                    ————————————————

                    RTS said…

                    “I heard the HS wanted to fire off around the station early and were told it was TOO SOON. Big mistake. It took less than 30 seconds to run up a chute at them.”

                    So it DOES appear that US Forestry Engine E19-ANF Captain Ramon Chavez and his crew of 4… and US Forestry employee and ‘Squad Leader’ James Robledo and HIS crew ( of uknown size ) WERE ‘ready’ to do firing operations there to try and protect their OWN homes…

                    …but SOMEONE ELSE was PREVENTING them from doing it… until it was too late to make any difference.

                    Those US Forestry employees who were allowed to be there trying to protect their own homes seemed to know fully well what their only chance was ( since no Retardant drops were even possible )… but it seems like someone ELSE had been PREVENTING them from doing what they knew needed to be done.

                    An ‘investigation’ would be able to find out WHO that ‘someone’ really was and help ‘contribute’ to the “Lessons Learned” that should come out of this close-call ‘entrapment’ there at that US Forestry Bear Divide station.

                    • Woodsman says

                      When I first read this statement from RTS, I wondered why a USFS fire station was located at the top of a chute? And if so, (for the view or whatever,) why was the entire compound not constructed and maintained in such a way that firefighters would not have to risk their lives defending it with a wildfire in proximity?

                      Woodsman

                    • Bob Powers says

                      The Station has been there for a long time they added the HS crew roughly in the mid 60s. . It was a Helitack Base prior to the HS Crew and had an Engine base back into the 50s

                      To My Knowledge this is the first fire in a long time to hit that area.

                      Again extreme burning conditions seem to be playing HELL with a lot of towns and Structures Through out California and other Drought Areas.

                      What use to be good protection and clearance is turning into a Night Mare. Spread Factors and Flame Lengths are going beyond the Projection Charts.

                      Back Firing or new term Firing Out is a tricky situation especially when the Head of a Fire is coming Up Canyon at you.

                      Not sure why this was the station location sometimes the Stations were built where there were Springs that were developed for Water.
                      Note the two tanks up the Mountain above the Station.

    • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

      ** KHTS AM 1220
      **
      ** VIDEO INTERVIEW WITH US FORESTRY FIREFIGHTER
      ** JAMES ROBLEDO… ( RAMON CHAVEZ’S NEIGHBOR. )…

      Radio Station KHTS AM 1220 also did an on-camera interview with US Forestry Firefighter James Robledo. He was US Forestry employee and Engine E19-ANF Captain Ramon Chavez’s next-door neighbor that at the US Forestry Bear Divide Station.

      He was also ( apparently ) a ‘crewmember’ on Captain Ramon Chavez’s E19-ANF US Forestry Engine and helped Chavez ( and the entire E19 Crew ) try and defend those houses at that Station “until the last moment”, when they all had to RUN up to the Bear Divide Station main building in order to survive the Station burnover.

      This is the interview where James Robledo himself says ( on camera ) that they ended up (quote) “TRAPPED UP THERE” during the burnover at the Station.

      Robledo recalls being “TRAPPED” for at least 30 minutes.

      YouTube Video Title…
      Firefighter Family, Five Daughters Forced To Relocate After Sand Fire – KHTS News – Santa Clarita

      Direct link to this KHTS AM 1220 YouTube VIDEO…

      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l8iZnhvIQDE&list=PLW-NsE29a3OWeWG3LuBmpE8yM2vPQ0cDg

      The ‘Interviewer’ was KHTS reporter Drake Hougo.
      US Foresty Firefighter James Robledo and his wife are facing the camera.
      The Robledos have 5 ( FIVE ) daughters.
      The Robledos lost their family dog in the burnover.

      Here is a TRANSCRIPT of that part of the relevant part of the VIDEO…

      ———————————————————-
      +0:20
      Interviewer: The Robledos were one of four firefighter familes that lost their
      home in the devastating ‘Sand Fire’. Along with his neighbor,
      Ramon Chavez, James Robledo helped fight the oncoming fire until it was TOO LATE.
      He watched from a nearby hill as his family’s house burned down.

      James Robledo: We were TRAPPED UP THERE for… I wanna say about 30 minutes
      before you could even see anything. It went from day to night. When I was there fightin’ the fire… I saw it burn… and… uh… I knew we lost everything… but it didn’t really hit till the next day.

      +0:40 – A still photograph of what appears to be the remains of both the
      Chavez and Robledo residences still ‘on fire’ there at the Bear Divide Station.
      Possible taken by James Robledo himself following the ‘entrapment’ and
      the worst of the ‘burnover’

      +0:54 – A flying DRONE CAMERA video of the destroyed Robledo residence
      there at that US Forestry Bear Divide Station.

      +1:00 – More post-burnover video of the destruction at that US Forestry Station.
      ————————————————————-

      • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

        Photo of ‘add on’ to main building…

        Notice the SHRUBS planted right next to the walls of the building, the tall trees, and the multiple BARBECUE GRILLS right by the building. Either these grills had their OWN Propane tanks… or they were actually tied’ into the nearby 1,000 ( ONE THOUSAND ) gallon tank seen in the satellite photos 19 feet off the corner of the ‘garage’…

        So much for ‘firewising’ at this USFS facility.

        http://www.beardividehotshots.com/images/2000/misc/bear_divide_crew_trucks.jpg

        • Bob Powers says

          5 Galion Propane Tanks for Grills have no fire regulations for location from dwelling has nothing to do with Fire wise.
          A 100 Gallon Propane tank must be a minimum of 15 Ft. from Dwellings.

          So Much for your Knowledge of actual State Laws.
          FIREWISINGWTKTT.

    • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

      ** GOFUNDME PAGE FOR FIREFIGHTER ‘SERGIO TOSCANO’

      The other firefighter known to have lost his residence during that July 23, 2016 ‘Bear Divide’ entrapment and burnover was named ‘Sergio Toscano’.

      Unlike Ramon Chavez and James Robledo, Sergio Toscano was not part of
      Ramon Chavez’s Engine E19-ANF Engine Crew.

      Sergio Toscano was a ‘Lead Firefighter’ for the ‘Little Tujunga Hotshots’.

      Also contains photos of destruction at Bear Divide, including one
      of FF ‘Sergio Toscano’ surveying the damage…

      https://www.gofundme.com/2g3dduf6

      As of August 25… 458 people have donated $28,715 of $50k goal.

      Sergio Toscano is a ‘Lead Firefighter’ for the Little Tujunga Hotshots.

      They ( The Little Tujunga Hotshots ) were on assignment in the Cleveland National Forest ( Camp Pendleton in San Diego, California ) when the entrapment/burnover took place at the Bear Divide Station on July 23, 2016… so the HOTSHOTS that Ramon Chavez told his SISTER were helping defend the homes and became part of the ‘entrapment’ could not have been members of the ‘Little Tujunga Hotshot’ organization.

      The ‘About’ text for Sergio Tuscano’s ‘GoFundMe’ page…
      —————————————————————————
      I am creating the page for a freind and fellow fireman. One of our firefighters lost his home during the Sand Fire on the Angeles National Forest on July 23, 2016.

      Sergio Toscano, a Senior firefighter for the Little Tujunga Hotshots, lost his home when the Sand Fire burned through the Bear Divide Ranger station and destroying his home. Sergio has been a firefighter for the US Forest Service for the past four years. He took a lead firefighting position with the Little Tujunga Hotshots this year and prior to his time fighting fire was a US Marine for four years. Sergio has a young son who was with his mother at the time of the fire.

      At the time his home was lost, Sergio was on assignment in the Cleveland National Forest near San Diego on a wildfire that burned over 2000 acres with no structures lost. He heard of his lost only after coming off the fireline and was immediately taken home to start the process of recovering what ever he can.

      He is unaware that this page is being created for him and everything that is collected will go straight to him so he can begin to rebuild what he has lost. Any little help will be greatly appecieated and being a guy of little words, Sergio will be speechless at any generosity he receives. Thank you!
      —————————————————————————

    • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

      ** GOFUNDME PAGE FOR USFS ENGINE E19-ANF CAPTAIN RAMON CHAVEZ

      The ‘GoFundMe’ page created July 24, 2016 ‘on behalf of Bonnie Chavez’,
      the wife of US Forestry employee and Engine E19-ANF Captain Ramon Chavez.

      This ‘GoFundMe’ page was created by ‘Cia Reyes’, who is the SISTER
      of US Forestry Engine E19-ANF Captain Ramon Chavez, and the one who told the media Ramon Chavez told HER they had to RUN to the ‘Bear Divide’ main station at the last moment on July 23, 2016 in order to survive the burnover there.

      As of this writing ( August 25, 2016 ), 54 people have contributed $4,144 towards a top goal of raising $10,000.

      https://www.gofundme.com/2g3kq9gk

      The page also contains PHOTOS of the destruction there at that ‘Bear Divide’ Station.

    • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

      ** OFFICIAL ‘SAND FIRE OPERATIONS’ PERIMETER MAPS

      These are the ACTUAL MAPS that are still sitting at the PUBLIC NIFC FTP distribution site for official ‘Operations’ regarding the ‘Sand Fire’.

      The USFS and the NIFC maintain this PUBLIC ‘FTP site’ in order to distribute any/all ICS ‘Operations’ documents during any give fire season. No ‘password’ or ‘logon’ is required. It is a PUBLIC ‘FTP’ site.

      NOTE: On BOTH of the ‘Operations Maps’ below, the actual ‘Bear Divide Station’
      location is easy to find. It is always the large BLUE DOT with the map label ‘H-1’ right
      off the southwest corner of the ‘Magic Mountain Wilderness Area’. The BLUE DOT
      marks the exact location of the HELIPAD that was there on the grounds of that
      ‘Bear Divide Station’ off Little Tujunga Road.

      The official ‘Sand Fire’ perimeter as of 1800 ( 6:00 PM ), July 23, 2016…

      http://ftp.nifc.gov/incident_specific_data/calif_s/2016_Incidents/CA-ANF-003008_Sand/GIS/Products/20160723/OPS_E_land_20160723_1800_Sand_CAANF3008.pdf

      The ‘Operations Map’ above shows the uncontained perimeter of the ‘Sand Fire’
      approaching the Bear Divide Station from the EAST… but still some distance away
      from it, even at 6:00 PM on Saturday, July 23, 2016.

      The official ‘Sand Fire’ perimeter 12 hours later, as of 0600 ( 6:00 AM ), July 24, 2016…

      http://ftp.nifc.gov/incident_specific_data/calif_s/2016_Incidents/CA-ANF-003008_Sand/GIS/Products/20160724/OPS_E_land_20160724_0600_Sand_CAANF3008.pdf

      The map above shows how far the ‘Sand Fire’ had progressed in just 12 hours.
      It obviously ‘burned over’ the Bear Divide Station from the EAST ( after jumping
      over the Little Tujunga Road ) as the fire perimeter was pushing WEST.

      • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

        ** THE BEAR DIVIDE STATION WAS INSIDE OF AN
        ** AIR OPERATIONS ‘AVOIDANCE AREA’.

        One of the obvious ‘questions’ regarding this attempt on the part of USFS employee and Captain of ‘Bear Divide’ Engine E19-ANF to save his own home and the home of his ‘squad leader’ James Robledo is WHY… with all the LEAD TIME they had… did they not receive any AIR SUPPORT to help ‘defend’ that US Forestry ‘Bear Divide Station’.

        The following ‘official’ AIR OPERATIONS document for the ‘Sand Fire’ shows that the US Forestry’s ‘Bear Divide Station’ was right in the middle of an ‘official’ ‘Retardant Drop Avoidance Area’.

        They were not ALLOWED to make any ‘retardant drops’ there in that ‘Avoidance Area’… even though their own USFS ‘Bear Divide Station’ needed to be ‘defended’ because it had not been ‘firewised’.

        As with the ‘Operations’ maps linked to above… the BLUE DOT with the ‘H-1’ map label right to the LEFT of the first letter ‘A’ in the map label saying ‘Avoidance Area’ marks the actual HELIPAD that was there at that ‘Bear Divide’ Station.

        http://ftp.nifc.gov/incident_specific_data/calif_s/2016_Incidents/CA-ANF-003008_Sand/GIS/Products/airops.pdf

        • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

          NOTE: When you see a marked ‘Avoidance Area’ on any of these “Air Operations” on these official NIFC ‘Operations Maps’ on that official USFS FTP site… it goes back to the ‘agreement’ that USFS had to make when they were ordered by a Court to do that ‘Environmental and Health Impact for Aerial Retardants’ study ( which turned out to be a BOGUS report… but the Court accepted it, anyway ).

          Even though USFS had agreed to REMOVE the ‘ferro cyanide’ anti-corrosion component of the retardant that was proven to have been the reason for the thousands and thousands of FISH the had been killing… USFS still had to agree to establish strict ‘Avoidance Areas’ where NO RETARDANT could be used due to the KNOWN ( and still UNKNOWN ) environmental and health impacts of aerial retardants.

          So that’s why there was NO AIR SUPPORT for ‘Bear Divide’ Engine Captain Ramon Chavez and his crew there at that ‘Bear Divide Station’.

          Their OWN ‘US Forestry Bear Divide Station’ was INSIDE and established ‘Avoidance Area’ for retardant drops.

          • Bob Powers says

            The Canyon next to bear divide is a high quality water way for the LA Basin water program. severial drainages the feed out of the Angeles NF are designated as such.

            • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

              Reply to Bob Powers post on August 26, 2016 at 4:39 pm

              >> Bob Powers said…
              >>
              >> The Canyon next to bear divide is a high quality water way
              >>for the LA Basin water program. severial drainages the feed
              >> out of the Angeles NF are designated as such.

              Thank you, Bob.

              And regardless of the fact that US Forestry agreed to stop using any retardants with the KNOWN fish-killer ‘ferro cyanide’ anti-corrosion component… they STILL had to agree to ( as much as humanly possible ) NEVER drop this ‘retardant’ shit anywhere near critical waterways.

              And so… to this day… pretty much EVERY ‘National Forest’ has ‘Avoidance Areas’ ( like the one on the Angeles National Forest ) where no retardant is ever to be dropped except in cases of extreme emergencies.

              One of the big ‘fish kills’ with retardant drops was right there in California, in 2009, on the Santa Ynez River on the ‘Los Padres National Forest’. Lots of ‘endangered’ steelhead trout were killed.

              As you know… the ‘Los Padres National Forest’ is just northwest of the ‘Angeles National Forest’ where this ‘Sand Fire’ recently was.

              So it must have been KNOWN to US Forestry employee and Engine E19-ANF Captain Ramon Chavez ( and everyone else associated with that ‘Bear Divide Station’ ) that there wasn’t even a chance of getting any ‘retardant’ drops there at that ‘Bear Divide Station’. Only ‘water drops’ from helicopters, if anything at all.

              All the more reason for that Bear Divide Station ( and the residences there ) to have been ‘Firewised’ as best as possible.

              I mean… it you already KNOW that if push comes to shove you won’t even be ABLE to get any ‘retardant’ drops at all.. no matter how much ‘Air Support’ is available… then that it all the more reason to make damn sure you are ‘Firewised’ as much as possible.

              Here’s an article that mentions this PROMISE that US Forestry had to make to establish these ‘Retardant Drop Avoidance Areas’…

              Live Science
              Article Title: Does Flame Retardant Work?
              Published: August 30, 2013 04:47pm ET
              By Marc Lallanilla, Assistant Editor |
              http://www.livescience.com/39345-does-flame-retardant-work.html

              From the article…
              ——————————————————————
              When confronted with a raging wildfire, the U.S Forest Service has several weapons in its firefighting arsenal, including ground crews who create firebreaks and aircraft that dump water and flame retardants.

              But the use of flame retardants has come under increased scrutiny in recent years: While some question the cost-effectiveness of using the substances, environmental groups are concerned that the bright red chemical slurry can have a deadly effect on plants and wildlife.

              “It looks good on television,” Andy Stahl, executive director of Forest Service Employees for Environmental Ethics (FSEEE) in Eugene, Ore., told LiveScience. However, “there’s no benefit to its use,” Stahl said.

              There’s no hard evidence that flame retardants actually increase a firefighting crew’s initial success in containing a fire, limiting its spread or lowering the number of homes lost, Stahl explained. “None of these are improved by the use of fire retardant,” Stahl said.

              What’s in retardants?

              The flame retardants used in fighting wildland fires are very different from the retardants used in bedding, clothes and other household items. For fighting forest fires, retardants consist primarily of ammonium compounds such as ammonium phosphate, ammonium sulfate and others.

              ( NOTE: There are many other ‘chemicals’ included in retardant mixtures, some of which remain completely UNKNOWN because the companies that manufacture the retardants are allowed to keep these ‘other ingredients’ SECRET because of US Patent and Trade Secret Laws. The full array of chemicals used has never even been disclosed agencies tasked with doing Environmental and Human Health studies because of the same ‘Trade Secret’ laws ).

              These compounds are also used in agricultural fertilizers. That, according to several researchers, is precisely the problem: When dumped into a wilderness area, these fertilizers stimulate the growth of certain weedy, fast-growing plants that outcompete slower-growing plant species, some of which are rare or endangered.

              Additionally, if these compounds find their way into a stream or lake, the fertilizers can kill off fish and other aquatic species, causing a harmful algal bloom. These events reduce the amount of oxygen in a body of water and encourage the growth of toxic algae.

              These environmental problems have been addressed by changes to the compounds used in the fire retardant slurry mixture, the AP reports, and despite the FSEEE’s contention that flame retardant is of limited effectiveness, the Forest Service maintains that the chemicals are essential to controlling blazes. “When enough people in enough places say retardant helps, we have to believe they’re not making it up,” Cecilia Johnson, an agency fire chemicals technical specialist, told the AP.

              The Forest Service and groups like the FSEEE (which is largely made up of current and former Forest Service employees) won’t likely resolve their ongoing feud anytime soon. Stahl’s group has filed a number of lawsuits against the Forest Service, and these suits have resulted in some significant changes in the way the agency fights fires.

              For example, to minimize impacts on aquatic life, the Forest Service has agreed to limit the use of flame retardant in areas within 300 feet of streams and lakes; the agency has also issued maps showing “retardant-specific avoidance areas” for each national forest.

              “The forest service has committed to not dump retardant in those areas unless somebody’s life is in danger,” Stahl said. Whether that will actually happen in the midst of a raging inferno, however, is unclear, he said.
              ——————————————————————

    • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

      ** BEAR DIVIDE AND LITTLE TUJUNGA HOTSHOTS HAVE BEEN
      ** DEMOTED TO ‘TYPE 2 IA’ STATUS

      In addition to it being known that the ‘Little Tujunga Hotshots’ were off ‘on assignment’ elsewhere on July 23, 2016… it appears the actual ‘Bear Divide Hotshots’ ( whose station was burned over during that burnover/entrapment ) were ‘elsewhere’ as well.

      So it appears that the HOTSHOTS that Ramon Chavez says were part of the ‘defense’ effort and the ‘entrapment’ there could NOT have been from either the ‘Little Tujunga’ or the ‘Bear Divide’ Hotshot organizations.

      Bear Divide Hotshots website – Their own ‘sit300’ report(s)…

      SIT300 – SOUTHERN CALIFORNIA GEOGRAPHIC AREA
      http://www.beardividehotshots.com/sit300.html

      This document contains the actual ‘SIT300’ report ( Excel Spreadsheet )…
      http://gacc.nifc.gov/oscc/predictive/intelligence/IS500.xls

      Document above says that as of today ( August 24, 2016 ), both the ‘Bear Divide’ Hotshots AND the ‘El Cariso’ Hotshots have dropped back to ‘Type 2 IA ( Initial Attack )’ status versus regular ‘Type 1 IHC’ status.

      • Bob Powers says

        When your crewman start going back to Collage you either get firefighter HS detailers from other regions or drop back based on number of Crewman.

        Back in the day we managed to keep the crew to at least 20 we had 25 at the first of the year and planed pickup of HS from other regions to keep the crew going some times as late as the end of November.

        • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

          Reply to Bob Powers post on August 26, 2016 at 8:20 pm

          >> Bob Powers said…
          >>
          >> When your crewman start going back to Collage you
          >> either get firefighter HS detailers from other regions or
          >> drop back based on number of Crewman.

          Thank you, Bob.

          I can’t find any documentation ( yet ) about WHEN both the “Little Tusunga Hotshots” and the “Bear Divide Hotshots” BOTH had to ‘drop back’ to just being listed as “Type 2 IA” crews this season… but it DOES appear that both organizations STARTED this season with full “Type 1 IHC” status.

          So yea… it is ( relatively speaking ) getting ‘late in the season’… and the colleges have started their semesters again… so the ‘dropbacks’ very well could just have to do with ‘attrition’ and the loss of ( eligible ) crewman.

          The ‘point’ here is that regardless of their current ‘status’ levels… it does NOT appear that the HOTSHOTS which Ramon Chavez apparently told his sister were ‘helping’ at the ‘Bear Divide Station’ ( and also involved in the entrapment ) were EITHER from the ‘Bear Divide Hotshots’ ( whose home base was that station itself ) OR the nearby “Little Tusunga Hotshots”.

          I’m still trying to find out if there really were any HOTSHOTS involved in that entrapment at all… and if so… who they might have been.

          It couldn’t have been a ‘full contingent’ of Hotshots… or the reported number of FFs involved in the ‘entrapment’ would have been up in the 25+ personnel range.

          We KNOW that both Ramon Chavez’s E19-ANF Engine ( and its full crew of 5 ) were involved in the ‘entrapment’ together with whatever full ‘crew’ Roblado was the ‘squad leader’ of… so that already accounts for MOST ( if not ALL ) of the 14 firefighters known to have been involved in that ‘Bear Divide Station Entrapment’.

          If there WERE any HOTSHOTS involved over and above these 2 crews… there weren’t many of them.

          • Bob Powers says

            A HS Squad could be 10 with the Engine crew of maybe 4.
            You said Roblado was listed as a Squad Boss he could have had his Squad with him.

            If a HS crew goes below 18 they drop back from Type 1 to Type 2 or a IA Crew. They normally still have the 7 Ft 13/13 or more appointments who are some Year around (4 or 5)

            • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

              Reply to Bob Powers post on August 27, 2016 at 7:45 am

              >> Bob Powers said…
              >>
              >> A HS Squad could be 10 with the Engine crew of
              >> maybe 4.

              Well… there doesn’t seem to be any ‘maybe’ about that.

              The ‘photo’ that US Forestry Engine E19-ANF Captain Ramon Chavez posted to his own PUBLIC Facebook page of his own ‘Engine 19’ and CREW has Captain Ramon Chavez himself taking the picture ( with his mobile phone )… and there are FOUR crewman standing in front of Engine 19.

              It is a Type 3 Engine US Forestry Engine.

              >> Bob Powers also said…
              >>
              >> You said Roblado was listed as a Squad Boss he
              >> could have had his Squad with him.

              Again… according to the following article… there is no “could have had his Squad with him” about it.

              The following article says he ( US Forestry Squad Boss James Robledo ) DID have what ‘Crew’ he is a ‘Squad Boss’ for WITH him on the afternoon of Saturday, July 23, 2016… when that entrapment/burnover took place at that Bear Divide Station.

              The following article places BOTH US Forestry employees Ramon Chavez AND James Robledo there at that station… trying to save their OWN residences there… and it says they BOTH had their (quote) “Respective Crews” with them as well.

              KHTS AM 1220
              Article Title: Firefighter Family, Two Daughters Forced To Relocate After Sand Fire Destroys Home
              Published: August 18, 2016
              http://www.hometownstation.com/santa-clarita-news/breaking-news/fire-2/firefighter-family-five-daughters-forced-to-relocate-after-sand-fire-destroys-home-175355

              From that article…
              ————————————————————
              James Robledo and his family lived in a home on the Bear Divide Fire Station, off Sand Canyon Road.

              On Saturday, July 23, flames began approaching the Forest Service compound, built amidst the rugged mountains of the Angeles National Forest.

              James Robledo, and his neighbor, Ramon Chavez, battled the oncoming fire with their respective crews until the firefighters personal safety was at risk, forcing them to retreat to a nearby hillside.

              Taking refuge in a cinder block building above their homes, James Robledo watched as flames engulfed and burned down his family’s home.

              Once it was SAFE to leave, Robledo left the mountain to meet his wife and daughters, who were on vacation with their grandparents.

              The next day, James, his wife, Tanya, and two of the girls returned to the site of their former house—now a pile of rubble, ash and lost memories. The oldest girl is currently staying with her biological father at his house in Santa Clarita. Two of the daughters stay with their biological mother due to split custody.Donate – Santa Clarita Disaster Coalition

              Among the irreplaceable, the family lost their dog, a chocolate lab named Benny, who was a source of comfort and love to the girls.
              ————————————————————

    • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

      ** US FORESTRY EMPLOYEE SEARCH

      The following is just more proof that Ramon Chavez and James Robledo ( who became entrapped along with 12 other firefighers at that Bear Divide Station ) were, in fact, US Forestry employees, and that James Robledo was, in fact, a ‘squad boss’ and not just a ‘grunt’.

      Just Google the words: US Forestry employee search

      And this link appears as the first ‘Search’ result…

      http://www.fs.fed.us/about-agency/contact-us/employee-search

      On that page, enter any NAME and it will tell you what ‘postion’ they
      ( currently ) hold within US Forestry.

      * Search results for “Ramon Chavez”…

      Name: Ramon Chavez
      Title: Firefighter
      Location: Region 5 – Pacific Southwest (Calif., Hawaii, Guam, Trust Territories)
      R5,Angeles NF,Los Angeles River RD
      Contact: 661-269-2808 x (phone)
      Email: ramonchavez (at) fs.fed.us

      * Search results for “James Robledo”…

      Name: James Robledo
      Title: squad boss
      Location: Region 5 – Pacific Southwest (Calif., Hawaii, Guam, Trust Territories)
      R5,Angeles NF,Los Angeles River RD
      Contact: 818-362-1216 x (phone)
      Email: jrobledo (at) fs.fed.us

      • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

        Followup…

        ** JAMES ROBLEDO HAD HIS OWN CREW
        ** AND THEY ALSO BECAME INVOLVED IN THE ENTRAPMENT?

        James Robledo’s US Forestry ‘Employee search’ lookup states that he was, in fact, a “squad boss” and not just a “grunt”… and the followng article suggests that even though a photo posted by Ramon Chavez himself shows James Robledo as part of his ‘Engine E19-ANF’ crew at one time… that on the day of the burnover/entrapment, James Robledo was in charge of his OWN “Crew”… which he ( like Ramon Chavez ) brought to the ‘Bear Divide’ station to try and help save his own home there.

        The following article says…

        “James Robledo, and his neighbor, Ramon Chavez, battled the oncoming fire with their RESPECTIVE crews”

        Key phrase: “RESPECTIVE crews”

        As in… they each were in charge of separate CREWS.

        The article then confirms they ( BOTH Crews ) had to RETREAT to the main building there at the ‘Bear Divide’ compuound in order to survive the burnover.

        “Taking refuge in a cinder block building above their homes, James Robledo watched as flames engulfed and burned down his family’s home.”

        KHTS AM 1220
        Article Title: Firefighter Family, Two Daughters Forced To Relocate After Sand Fire Destroys Home
        Published: August 18, 2016
        http://www.hometownstation.com/santa-clarita-news/breaking-news/fire-2/firefighter-family-five-daughters-forced-to-relocate-after-sand-fire-destroys-home-175355

        From that article…
        ————————————————————
        James Robledo and his family lived in a home on the Bear Divide Fire Station, off Sand Canyon Road.

        On Saturday, July 23, flames began approaching the Forest Service compound, built amidst the rugged mountains of the Angeles National Forest.

        James Robledo, and his neighbor, Ramon Chavez, battled the oncoming fire with their respective crews until the firefighters personal safety was at risk, forcing them to retreat to a nearby hillside.

        Taking refuge in a cinder block building above their homes, James Robledo watched as flames engulfed and burned down his family’s home.

        Once it was SAFE to leave, Robledo left the mountain to meet his wife and daughters, who were on vacation with their grandparents.

        The next day, James, his wife, Tanya, and two of the girls returned to the site of their former house—now a pile of rubble, ash and lost memories. The oldest girl is currently staying with her biological father at his house in Santa Clarita. Two of the daughters stay with their biological mother due to split custody.Donate – Santa Clarita Disaster Coalition

        Among the irreplaceable, the family lost their dog, a chocolate lab named Benny, who was a source of comfort and love to the girls.
        ————————————————————

        SIDENOTE: With all the time they ( Chavez, Robledo and their ‘respective CREWS’ ) were actually THERE at that ‘Bear Divide’ Station and just ‘waiting’ for the fire to arrive… you have to wonder why ‘Benny’ ( the chocolate lab ) ended up having to DIE in the fire. You would think Robledo ( or SOMEONE ) would have had plenty of time to get ‘Benny’ up to the main building or the garage. Poor ‘Benny’.

    • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

      ** RAMON CHAVEZ’S ANGELES NATIONAL FOREST ENGINE E-19
      ** THE ONLY USFS ENGINE ‘ASSIGNED’ TO THE BEAR DIVIDE STATION

      Proof that Type 3 Engine E19-ANF is, in fact, assigned to operate out of the ‘Bear Divide’ Station on the Angeles National Forest.

      This is the actual ‘Engine’ that US Forestry employee Ramon Chavez was the ‘Captain’ of during the entrapment/burnover at the ‘Bear Divide Station’ on July 23, 2016.

      http://www.wrightwoodcalif.com/bigpines/WrightwoodScannerFreqs/FireStationLocations.html

      ——————————————————————————-
      Fire Stations and Apparatus

      Agency Identifiers…

      ANF – ANGELES NATIONAL FOREST

      Station Equipment / Crews…

      ANF – 19 – BEAR DIVIDE E19, Crew 1 (Bear Divide Hotshots)
      ——————————————————————————-

      There is only ONE ‘Engine’ listed as being ‘assigned’ to the ‘Bear Divide Station’… and it was, in fact, Ramon Chavez’s Type 3 E19-ANF Engine.

      And that ‘Bear Divide Station’ was, in fact, also the HOME BASE for the Type 1 IHC ‘Bear Divide Hotshots’ ( who were apparently all off on another assignment when the July 23, 2016 entrapment and burnover took place ).

    • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

      ** RAMON CHAVEZ’S PUBLIC FACEBOOK PAGE

      Just more confirmation that Ramon Chavez was, in fact, the ‘Captain’ of US Forestry Engine E19-ANF of the ‘Angeles National Forest’… and the only USFS Engine operating out of that US Forestry ‘Bear Divide’ station where he also LIVED with his wife, Bonnie, and their 3 children.

      Ramon Chavez’s PUBLIC Facebook page…

      https://www.facebook.com/ray.chavez.982

      Ramon Chavez’s PUBLIC ‘About’ information…

      Works at: BEAR DIVIDE at USDA Forest Service ( since 2003 to present )
      Married to: Bonnie Chavez ( since April 4, 2009 ).

      Also… a direct link to a PUBLIC photo Ramon Chavez posted to his PUBLIC Facebook page showing US Forestry ‘Engine 19’ of the ‘Angeles National Forest’ ( E19-ANF ) stationed at the US Forestry’s BEAR DIVIDE facility.

      The photo also shows his FOUR crewman ( as of April 23, 2014 ).

      His neighbor, US Forestry employee James Robledo, is standing there with that E19 Engine Crew, second from the right, with his arms folded, sunglasses, and a ballcap.

      https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=839997116015232&set=ecnf.100000148535183&type=3&theater

  12. Charlie says

    Sept. 25, 2015, Wilhoit: Jeffrey Blood, 45, shot by YCSO Deputies Dakota Brinkley and Brandon Warren and State Trooper Christopher Wilson. Blood was at a party at his home in the 9200 block of South Steven Trail, where he was reportedly shooting in the back yard. The three officers ordered him to drop the gun. When he threatened them, they shot him.3

    Lucked out today, I did not get shot. I got stuck on 89 when I turned around–the ground is soft from recent rains so I could not back up, Deputy Morales was first on the scene since some one called said there is a guy. Morales is one fine deputy–was there when I was coptered out with a heart attack –said he would pull me out of the ditch but rules won’t let them help you. That young deputy showed up later 24 years of age, and had me looking at his pencil like I was drunk. I told him give me a breathalizer since my eyes did not move the way he wanted. Well hell, nothing so they went on since I had called Joy to bring a jack an shovel. They made sure I had water, and offered to get me some so When do I ever drive without a handy man jack and shovel–the one time I am going in to Wickenburg to get a wood spliter. Life is good, but be careful.

    Do not mess with Mr. Brinkley–he might be young but he already had a recent kill–Joy posted it. You wonder how that people go out into the country places and have to shoot a man dead. Seems like the new video age people are ready to shoot you in a heartbeat. Joy thinks it is due to the video games, but I have no opinion–likely Mr. Brinkley felt threatened. If a man points a gun at you, you better shoot fast.

    • Charlie says

      Brings to mind, Will LePoint–French man had us pinned down shooting near us with his 22 rifle about 75 yards distance. Bullets were pinging off old well rigs and metal near us. I returned fire with my 45, but not directly at him, but did ventilate his tin roof. Will quit shooting then so there was no reason to kill him. See, a friendly return fire stopped it all and later Will and I became friends. He told me he was shooting our way just to keep us sharp. I think it was his bad Vodka that had him doing it.

        • Charlie says

          See how the world has changed–The sheriff was called because I was stuck in a ditch. The asshole that called the sheriff did not stop and offer aid, but instead caused me trouble. This is your new mentality. Had I called the sheriff on Will, he likely would have been shot dead by a trigger happy deputy or minimally spent years in a penitentiary. These days people have lost perspective of life–Dog eat dog, fuck you attitude. Just like the 90 year old that was turned in maybe 5 houses down the street from me. I have passed her yard sale shit, even bought a painting for $20 and a couple other things from her. She has had a recent heart attack, but neighbors here turned her into county so they put a big thing on her door to clean up her shit. (Was it the same one that turned me in for my dangerous wild chickens?) Good Lord, why do that to some widow on her last legs? Joy and I offered to help her clean up because of her big county sign ordering her to do so. . But she says, no, she has not long to live and has lived her all her life as a free person doing what is fine on her own property. The county can go to hell. I understand–but now this is the new world. The horror story of where people instead of helping someone like that would call authorities to see what damage they can do. Where do these people that do that to the elderly come from? Some from California–others I do not know. Not real honest and freedom loving Americans for sure.

          • Charlie says

            Say do not misread this. Two men did stop, elderly folk, and though they did not know me, gladly hooked a chain on my 73 chevy truck and had me out in a jiffy. They were in my age bracket so did not have to call a sheriff, and knew exactly what to do to remedy the situation. I met Joy on the way up Yarnell Hill, my new dog pissed and puked and diarrhea ed in my cookie cutter roller skate Versa Note Nissan on the way down. Joy was not happy about that, but hell, the dog couldn’t help it.

            • Charlie says

              Bob, a nice guy, never killed one of his crew–but no different that us all. We try to keep above board, please the FS and big shots, or else.

  13. Bob Powers says

    WTKTT

    for some more clarity on the Compound.

    My friend past HS Supr.

    The propane tank is sitting behind the Parking Garage.
    The large building to the right is the Office, Mess hall and Barracks.
    They did not burn.
    There was brush clearance and Roads around them.
    Hope that helps

  14. WantsToKnowTheTruth says

    Reply to Woodsman post on August 24, 2016 at 4:37 am

    >> Woodsman said…
    >>
    >> I actually can imagine it as I witness a portion of the absurdity each year.
    >> If I had a dollar for every wannabe city firefighter that wants to use
    >> me & my agency for red card quals so they can get in the action, I would
    >> be able to take early retirement & wouldn’t need a pension check.

    Have any of these ‘wannabee’ city firefighters just ‘jonesing’ for their ‘red-card’
    quals so they can get ‘in on all this Unified Command $$$$$ action’ actually ever
    OFFERED you a ‘dollar’ ( or more? ) if you would just ‘sign their little taskbooks’?

    >> Woodsman also said…
    >>
    >> Subsequently I annually lose my voice telling them NO!

    I hear ya… but seriously… any of them ever OFFER you ‘a dollar’ ( or more ) to say YES?

    >> Woodsman also said…
    >>
    >> Alas, some find someone else who let’s them in the system & they end
    >> up on the fire lines across the land. You can’t fix stupid.

    But you CAN ( SHOULD ) make it harder for them to GET the ‘qualifications’.

    And by YOU… I don’t mean YOU.

    I mean the people responsible for this whole “Will someone please sign my taskbook
    that says I know how to do something” revolving turnstyle approach to WFF training.

    • Woodsman says

      No. No one has ever offered me any money to sign their taskbook or help them get a red card.

      I make those who seek a red card go through the proper procedure ie: they can grab a shovel & start from the bottom like me. Do I have attitude & a chip on my shoulder with these inquiries? You damn right I do! I however, do what I can for those willing to do it the right way. I’m not very polite to those that endeavor to cheat the system. (Most don’t think they are cheating because of massive egos) I wish I had more pull to change unearned quals but my power is limited. That doesn’t keep me from trying. One major problem is some municipal firefighters truly believe they are more qualified than they actually are due to being a big shot in their world when it’s not the case at all. We are seeing the effects of this over & over these days. It’s crap.

      I’m just one wff that has managed to gain a significantly high fireline leadership position through work, following procedure, & time. It should take a long time to progress through the system. Others find ways to skirt the rules. That’s fraud.

      Woodsman

      • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

        Reply to Woodsman post on August 24, 2016 at 5:43 pm

        >> Woodsman said…
        >>
        >> One major problem is some municipal firefighters truly believe
        >> they are more qualified than they actually are due to being a
        >> big shot in their world when it’s not the case at all. We are seeing
        >> the effects of this over & over these days. It’s crap.

        I can easily see how some ‘Engine Captain’ from the structural side might get his/her CRWB and/or DIVS taskbook fired up… and expect someone to just ‘sign off’ on it the very first time he/she completes a ‘Unified Command’ assignment on a Wildfire of any size.

        They probably come INTO the assignment thinking… “Hell… I got this. I run Engines / Crews all the time. No big whoop. Just find the houses and hose ’em down. Hey… somebody wanna sign this stupid ‘Taskbook’ for me?”

        CAWRT comes to mind as well.

        Conduct your OWN ‘classes’ and ‘refreshers’… have everyone show up… and have the ones that already have the red-card ratings just ‘sign off’ on the taskbooks for the ones that don’t. Revolving-door turnstyle approach to ‘training’.

        >> Woodsman also said…
        >>
        >> It should take a long time to progress through the system.
        >> Others find ways to skirt the rules. That’s fraud.

        Speaking of ‘Have your own classes and get people’s taskbooks signed’…

        One of the only FEW ‘DIVS Trainee’ assignments that Eric Marsh had was actually getting DIVS credit for just ‘coordinating’ some field exercises at one of the ‘Arizona Wildfire and Management Academy’ things at that Emery Riddle Aviation School outside of Prescott.

        A ‘school’ that HE, himself, started with one of his former wives from the living room of their trailer, before he went to work for the Prescott Fuels Crew.

        They organize this AWIMA thing as if it is an ‘Incident’… and all the teachers and management assume standard ICS ‘positions’ for that one week of ‘classes’… and these ‘bogus ICS assignments’ actually then COUNT towards ‘Trainee’ signoffs in their ‘Taskbooks’ for those positions ( Like IC and OPS and DIVS and yada, yada, yada ).

        What a racket.

        The person who actually ‘signed off’ on Eric Marsh’s FINAL ‘evaluation’ trainee assignment for the red-card position of DIVS ( Division Supervisor )… was none other than Aaron Hulburd of the nearby Prescott National Forest.

        So the man who would eventually record Eric Marsh’s last known words with his ‘Helmet Camera’ was actually the last person to ‘evaluate’ Marsh for his ability to be a competent DIVS… and the one who ‘recommended’ that ‘this trainee’ ( Marsh ) be APPROVED to function in that capacity.

      • Charlie says

        Woodsman, this world works on fraud. As a manager of a half way house for recovering alcoholics and drug addicts I was told to use all government funds possible else the next time funds might be cut. See, what these fire Chiefs, l
        Yarnell group do not get it is that the citizen needs to start looking into how their funds are treated We now are becoming more aware of how our funds are abused, well that is if we are a concerned tax payer..

    • Charlie says

      Woodsman, you have to like your input. I agree, keep those city firemen to their work. There are very few that would understand a wild fire, just as a wild land fire fighter has not business trying to use his Pulaski and risking his life to get to a damn house fire to do it. Common sense says if you want a city fireman on the job, you better have a leash tied to him.

      Look at the back burn here laid out by our local firemen. It back fired for sure and best I can tell the later wild land fire fighters had to come in to make line to keep the back burn from destroying more than it did. We wonder how city fire men can make decisions about wild land fires with their limited knowledge in that area. Well Joy is looking more closely into the Tenderfoot Fire, but yet to get the FOIA reports–there has been plenty of delay on that, and I can guarantee it will have redactions abundant.

  15. WantsToKnowTheTruth says

    **
    ** ‘ARIZONA 100 CLUB’ EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR ( SHARON KNUTSON-FELIX )
    ** FORCED TO RESIGN OVER SHENANIGANS WITH ‘GRANITE MOUNTAIN’ MONEY

    >> On August 23, 2016 at 4:58 pm, Diane Lomas said…
    >>
    >> Arizona 100 Club-interesting article by azcentral about investigation
    >> of the 100 Club resulting in resignation of Sharon Felix.

    Thanks for the ‘heads up’ on that, Diane.

    Here’s just ONE of the articles now hitting the ‘wire’…

    The Arizona Republic ( AZCENTRAL )
    Article Title: 100 Club of Arizona questions its own spending on Granite Mountain Hotshots’ families
    Published: 5:06 p.m. MST August 22, 2016 – By Robert Anglen
    http://www.azcentral.com/story/news/local/arizona-investigations/2016/08/21/arizona-100-club-non-profit-admits-granite-mountain-hotshot-donations-misspent-yarnell-hill-fire/87414628/

    From that article….
    ——————————————————————————
    The board of the 100 Club of Arizona, which collected $4.6 million for families of 19 firefighters who died at Yarnell Hill, raised concerns about the executive director’s spending and management decisions, according to its president.

    One of the key organizations responsible for managing those donations now questions how some of the money was used, with hundreds of thousands of dollars spent on sightseeing trips, high-end restaurants and hotels for hotshots’ families.

    The 100 Club of Arizona collected $4.6 million for families of 19 Granite Mountain Hotshots. The non-profit’s board president said some spending decisions could damage the public’s opinion of the organization, which has been providing financial support to families of police officers and firefighters killed or injured in the line of duty since 1968.

    An Arizona Republic investigation found concerns over spending and management decisions — including the termination of a bookkeeper who first raised questions about expenses — led to an internal AUDIT and the RESIGNATION of Sharon Knutson-Felix, the 100 Club’s longtime executive director.

    The Arizona 100 Club is overseen by a volunteer board of more than a dozen community leaders and a four-member executive team that includes the executive director.

    “There were a series of management decisions made by Sharon that looked and felt improper,” 100 Club board President Stephen Horrell Jr. said. “(The issues) are going to start and stop with Sharon and the board’s reaction to what we need to do so it will never, ever happen again.”
    ——————————————————————————

    There have been ‘rumors’ ( and some evidence ) of these kinds of ‘financial shenanigans’ going on with the ‘Arizona 100 Club’ since shortly after the Yarnell tragedy… and the fact that it all might only be beginning to come to light now ( and the ongoing Shakespearean aspects of this entire tragedy ) just brings a particular quote to mind…

    “Foul deeds will rise, Though all the earth o’erwhelm them, to men’s eyes”
    Hamlet ( 1.2.256 )

    This could end up just being the ‘scratching of the surface’ when it comes to this ‘Arizona 100 Club’ and the way it has handled the public donations.

    They have said over and over ( in the press ) that they have provided ‘assistance’ to ALL of the Granite Mountain family members… but it is still reported that the biological mother of deceased Grant McKee has never seen ONE SINGLE DIME of even just the “Line of Duty Death Benefit” that this ‘Arizona 100 Club’ was claiming they had already ‘delivered’ to ALL the ‘immediate family members’ just 72 hours after the tragedy.

    There have always been ‘reports’ of just CERTAIN ‘family members’, and people who were NOT even actual legal ‘family members’ ( like just girlfriends and/or fiances of dead Hotshots ) getting ‘preferential treatment’… while other legitimate DIRECT family members were receiving NOTHING.

    More to come on this, I’m sure.

    • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

      Followup…

      So… the ‘Arizona 100 Club’ board President Stephen Horrell Jr. is now saying…

      “(The issues) are going to START and STOP with Sharon and the board’s reaction to what we need to do so it will never, ever happen again.”

      Looks like they ( the Board ) really think all they need to do is throw Sharon Knutson-Felix ‘under the bus’… and that will be the end of it.

      We all know things are NEVER ‘that simple’.

      So more to come on this… I’m sure.

    • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

      Diane… the following is a question you asked not long ago which I really have been meaning to answer…

      >> On August 5, 2016 at 4:37 pm, Diane Lomas asked…
      >>
      >> If the 100 Club is non-profit with public donations isn’t there
      >> an obligation to distribute funds equally?

      The SHORT answer is… “No”.

      Just because an organization is a ‘non-profit’ does not AUTOMATICALLY mean they are REQUIRED to ‘distribute’ anything at all in any kind of ‘equal manner’.

      Non-profits ARE required to “live up to their own chartered purpose”… and they need to stay within their own ‘mission statements’… but the actual nuts-and-bolts of doling out ‘donations’ is usually left up to them.

      Even the ‘Red Cross’ is only REQUIRED to ‘distribute’ a certain percentage of the donations it receives towards the ‘stated purposes’ of the organization.

      However… that being said… there ARE times when a ‘non-profit’ IS supposed to distribute every penny being ‘donated’ in an ‘equal manner’… if that is what they, themselves, ADVERTISED they were going to do when they kick up some kind of ‘special donation’ drive.

      And there WAS such a thing ‘kicked up’ by this Arizona 100 Club.

      There WAS a ‘special bank account’ that was set up and ADVERTISED ( by them ) shortly after the incident that they SAID was specifically for the ‘family members’ only and that donations to THIS ‘special account’ WOULD be ‘distributed equally’ to all of the 19 families.

      If that is the STATED PURPOSE of such a ‘special account’… then to do otherwise then falls into the plain-old-vanilla category of ‘fraud’.

      But even with such a STATED PURPOSE for a ‘special account’ like that… the organization is still allowed ( and even expected ) to ‘exercise some discretion’.

      Example: The term ‘Family Members’ is pretty generic… so even with such a STATED PURPOSE of ‘equal distribution to all Family Members’… the organization still gets to decide who is ( or is NOT ) to be considered a ‘Family Member’ and part of the ‘equal distribution’. Sisters, Brothers, Cousins, Aunts, Uncles, Fiances’, Girl/BoyFriends etc. would not usually be ‘included’ in such a definition even for a special fundraising effort like that.

      So there were ‘decisions’ still being made not only with regards to ‘who gets what coming from the GENERAL donations that ‘Arizona 100 Club’ was receiving… but also with regards to this ‘SPECIAL ACCOUNT’ that had the STATED purpose of ‘equal distribution to all Family Members’.

      And there really WERE these ‘Multiple Sources of Donations’ that this ‘Arizona 100 Club’ was involved with. SOME people were donating directly to the ‘General Fund’ of that organization, and some people were donating directly to this ‘SPECIAL ACCOUNT’ they had also set up to receive ‘donations’ SPECIFICALLY for Granite Mountain ‘Family Members’. They had ( supposedly ) even set up the ‘account’ so that donations could be specifically ear-marked for specific GM ‘Families’, if that’s what the donor wanted to do.

      Where the rubber meets the road is in the ‘bookkeeping’ and the ‘accounting’, and
      whether all that money ( and who it was going to, for what ) remained ‘traceable’.

      Well… the AZCENTRAL investigation has revealed the following…

      ———————————————————————————–
      Scant information is available publicly about the money the Arizona 100 Club gives to survivors. The Form 990s non-profits are required to fill out annually for the Internal Revenue Service do not require individual itemization of recipients, only the type of benefit and the number of people who received them.

      The 100 Club tax returns account for money spent on hotshot survivors in a single line: “Benefits to survivors.” Its audited financial statements read much the same way, boiling down benefits to a line item called “Granite Mountain Hotshots Families Assistance.”
      ———————————————————————————–

      So even their own ‘financial statements’ make it hard to know what they were ( and still ARE ) REALLY doing with all that money.

      • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

        Maybe the following is ‘better’ example of what I was trying to say.

        The ‘mission statement’ for this duly-registered not-for-profit ‘Arizona 100 Club’ thing DOES say that they provide ‘generic support’ to the surviving family members of officers and fireman killed in the line of duty.

        But the AZCENTRAL article now reveals things like them just ‘deciding’ to buy the lone SURVIVOR of the Yarnell tragedy ( Brendan McDonough ) a NEW TRUCK.

        It also seems obvious ( now ) that they were always the ones PAYING for Brendan McDonough’s PTSD therapy.

        So even though Brendan McDonough did not DIE in the Yarnell fire… and he, himself, was not an ACTUAL ‘Family Member’ of any of the Hotshots who DID lose their lives in the line of duty… it would NOT have been totally ‘out of line’ for them to be ‘supporting’ Brendan and buying him TRUCKS ( or anything else )… as long as they felt they were fulfilling a ‘support’ role consistent with their ‘mission statements’.

        However… it DOES matter where the MONEY for ‘Brendan’s Truck’ was actually COMING from.

        If it was ‘coming from’ their own ‘General Fund’… then that is money they really are allowed to ‘decide what to do with’ as long as they stay within their ‘chartered purpose’ and ‘mission statement’.

        But if the money for Brendan’s new TRUCK came from this SPECIAL ACCOUNT that was advertised as being for ‘Family Members of deceased GM Hotshots’ only… well… then that’s a problem. They would THEN be using ‘public donations’ ( made to that special account ) for things OTHER than the ‘stated purpose’ for THOSE donations.

        But, apparently, the ‘Arizona 100 Club’ bookkeeping was so ‘wonky’ that there is really no way to tell if they were doing things like that.

        It looks like they WERE just treating ALL of the money that was ‘available’ to them as if it was all just in the ‘General Fund’.

      • Charlie says

        Over the years, If I ever learned anything, it is to give directly to those in need. Now and then you get fooled, but it does not matter to the heart. True, I think, the Red Cross, United Way, and a few others do their good works, but still you never make a mistake giving directly to a person in need. If they take wrongly it is on them not you.

    • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

      Another ‘Arizona Republic’ article related to the ‘Arizona 100 Club’ story.

      This one is from ‘E.J. Montini’ of AZCENTRAL…

      He points out ( and rightly so ) that even this latest ‘investigation’ could just be the “tip of the iceberg”… since the ‘Arizona 100 Club’ still hasn’t ACTUALLY provided a copy of the ‘audit’ that took place and still REFUSES to disclose exactly where all the ‘Granite Mountain’ money actually went.

      If this Sharon-Knutson Felix person really did have the ‘complete authority’ to do things like buy back wedding dresses from fiances’ for $1,000 ( with not even an accounting of what then HAPPENED to this ‘alleged’ wedding dress )… then that literally IS just the “tip of the iceberg”. We are talking about MILLIONS and MILLIONS of dollars here… not just an arbitrary decision to buy some $1,000 wedding dress off someone.

      The Arizona Republic ( AZCENTRAL )
      Article Title: Montini: 100 Club must be 100 percent transparent to restore trust
      Published: 5:05 p.m. MST August 22, 2016 – By EJ Montini
      http://www.azcentral.com/story/opinion/op-ed/ej-montini/2016/08/22/arizona-100-club-yarnell-hill-fire/89108630/

      From that article…
      ———————————————————————————
      One of the most trusted – even venerated – charities in the Valley is the 100 Club, with its stated mission “to provide immediate financial assistance to families of public safety officers and firefighters who are seriously injured or killed in the line of duty, and to provide resources to enhance their safety and welfare.”

      An expansive article by The Arizona Republic’s Robert Anglen calls into questions some of the financial decisions made by the club in providing assistance to families of 19 Granite Mountain Hotshots lost in the Yarnell Hill fire. Internally there were concerns if the donated money was spent properly. Club officials spoke to Anglen about this.

      Still, the most troubling aspect of Anglen’s report is a line reading:

      “Although 100 Club officials confirmed all expenses reported by The Republic, they were unwilling to provide a line-item accounting of expenditures for hotshot families, saying financial disclosure laws do not require them to report how money donated from the public was spent.”

      Trust. Trust is everything. And the only way to ensure trust is transparency.

      Anglen reports that Internal Revenue Service reports don’t require individual itemization and that the club didn’t offer it. Now that there have been questions about expenditures by the club that should change. The club should go above and beyond what is legally required and do simply what is right.

      Open the books. Keep them open. Line by line. Expenditure by expenditure. Put it online for everyone and anyone to see.

      Why not?

      The public wants assist and first responders and their families who need help. But they deserve a little reassurance about how the money is spent.

      Stephen Horrell Jr., the board president of the 100 Club, outlined a number of procedures implemented to restore the public’s sense of trust in the organization.

      That’s not difficult.

      All the 100 Club needs to do is to be 100 percent transparent 100 percent of the time.
      ———————————————————————————

      And NONE of these articles even begin to address some of the things that have been ‘reported’… such as…

      1. At least one of the direct biological parents of one of the deceased Hotshots ( Grant McKee’s mother Marcia McKee ) has reported NEVER receiving one single dime from this ‘Arizona 100 Club’… and that includes even this ‘automatic’ ‘Line of Duty Death Benefit’ ( $15,000 ) which is one of the ‘prime directives’ of this organization. The ‘Arizona 100 Club’ said on their own website, just 4 days after the tragedy, that they had ALREADY distributed this automatic $15,000 LODD benefit to ALL of the family members of ALL of the deceased Hotshots… but at least one ( are there others? ) says it ‘never happened’… much less ANY other support whatsoever.

      2. There are NO QUOTES ( Good, bad or ugly ) in the ‘article’ from ANY of the family members themselves. Is that because they were actively REFUSING to discuss any of this… or is it because the reporter didn’t even bother to talk to any of the ‘family members’ themselves. Yes… some would probably ‘praise’ the ‘Arizona 100 Club’ for things they received and help supplied… if they were some of the ones that stayed on Sharon-Knutson Felix’s GOOD side… but others might reveal that if you did NOT stay on this woman’s good-side… then you got exactly JACK SHIT from the ‘Arizona 100 Club’.

      3. Does ANY of the ‘arbitrary decision making’ detailed in this article have ANYTHING to do with the fact that 2 of the ‘Designated Family Support’ persons ( Someone named J.P. Vicente and someone named Ray Maoine ) were both specifically asked by some of the GM Family Members to NOT attend the court-mandated Question/Answer session held back on February 5, 2016? The J.P. Vicente guy was named ( by Sharon-Knutson Felix ) as Arizona 100 Club’s ‘Firefighter of the Week’ for his ( supposed ) ‘support of the GM Family Members’… but then the same J.P. Vicente ‘Family Support’ guy ended up having the POLICE called on him by the Superintendent of the Prescott Pioneer Cemetery.

      And THAT ‘incident’, where Vicente had the POLICE called on him, also had something to do with the ‘shape’ and ‘construction’ of the ‘Memorial’ and the placement of future gravesites for future GM Family members… which the Arizona Republic article now reveals were ‘gravesites’ that were directly PAID FOR by this ‘Sharon-Knutson Felix’ woman.

      So what really WAS the connection between this ‘Family Support’ person named J.P. Vicente ( who had the POLICE called on him ) and this ‘Sharon-Knutson Felix’ person?

      • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

        Whatever is still ‘missing’ from this ‘investigation’ into this ‘Arizona 100 Club’… such as the actual ‘details’ behind expenditure entries like this one…

        $456,000 for memorials. The 100 Club helped pay expenses for various memorials to the Granite Mountain Hotshots.

        ( Really? WHICH ‘memorials’? WHERE?… and WHAT ‘part’ of them? )

        …if you read ‘all the lines’ and also ‘in-between the lines’ of this most recent investigation in the ‘Arizona 100 Club’… it basically ‘confirms’ what has already been both ‘reported’ and ‘suspected’ for quite some time.

        That this Sharon Knutson-Felix person was running that organization and dispensing the millions and millions of PUBLIC DONATIONS like she was the ‘owner’ of ALL of it… and answerable only to herself.

        Even the organization’s CREDIT CARD(S) had HER personal NAME on them… and not the name of the not-for-profit organization itself.

        So… if you stayed on HER ‘good side’… then maybe you got some ‘help’ ( $$$$$ ) and some ‘invitations’ to all the trips to New York with expense accounts and FREE ‘gravesite’ plots at the Pioneer Cemetery and who-knows-what-else.

        If you did NOT ‘play ball’ and stay on HER ‘good side’… you likely got NOTHING.

        And I still don’t think the General PUBLIC, who were the ones SENDING her those ‘millions and millions of dollars’, realizes that was how it was all working.

        • Joy A. Collura says

          My bullet list…

          check mark…

          one mark off my list…

          Finally ….

          early on looking jnto this area is now being shown pubicly…

          I thought it would of been done sooner but it is at least publicly at forefront…there are other similiar organizations on my check list that need to be in same limelight as 100 club…and even ? fire districts who need to be at forefront showing same transparency.

          Thank you Diane and wwtktt…I am glad to see this as well as Paul Morin…will you please step forward and publicly share to the world your account the final hours 63013…

        • says

          Maybe I missed this information about Marcia McKee but has the 100 club done the right thing by her and provided what is rightfully her’s due to her son’s death in the Yarnell hill fire?

          • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

            Diane… one the most glaring ‘omissions’ from this recent AZCENTRAL article about the meltdown in this ‘Arizona 100 Club’ is the fact that the ‘article’ contains nothing at all coming from ANY of the actual ‘Family Members’ that this whole operation was meant to ‘Help’.

            It is not known if the reporter ever even bothered to basically ‘poll’ the Family Members to find out what THEIR views of this ‘Arizona 100 Club’ and their actions ( or lack thereof ) actually were… but even if they did… there is no mention of them doing that anywhere in the article.

            I’m sure some of the ‘reports’ from ‘Family Members’ themselves would have been in the ‘Good’ category… but SOME of them might have also been in either the ‘Bad’ or even ‘Ugly’ categories.

            So there is NO mention of Marcia McKee… and anyone having even bothered to check with HER about her ‘treatment’ by this ‘Arizona 100 Club’.

            It is STILL ‘reported’ that even though this ‘Arizona 100 Club’ SAID ( just 4 days after the tragedy ) that they had ALREADY distributed their mission-statement-required $15,000 LODD benefits to ALL of the ( directly eligible ) Family Members that they actually did no such thing.

            That SOME ‘Family Members’ ( like Marcia Mckee ) have never seen a DIME of that ‘benefit’… much less any of the other ‘benefits’ or ‘invitations to trips’ or ‘gravesite plots’ or who-knows-what-else this ‘Arizona 100 Club’ was offering to OTHER ( select ) ‘Family Members’.

    • Charlie says

      While they are at it, it would not be a bad idea to investigate the local Presbyterian Church and see how they distributed their hundreds of thousands in donations. A couple people to talk to are the McCrakins, lost it all, but got a bad treatment by their account. This was not really a church deal, but instead the church was used. Anyone that handles hundreds of thousands of donations wont mind an investigation–especially since they are Christian oriented.

  16. WantsToKnowTheTruth says

    **
    ** BEAR DIVIDE RANGER STATION ENTRAPMENT
    **
    ** ONE THOUSAND GALLON PROPANE TANK?

    Reply to Robert the Second ( RTS ) post on August 23, 2016 at 4:52 pm

    >> RTS said…
    >>
    >> In the WUI Structure Defense, California FIRESCOPE paper on
    >> page 3, they discuss the use of TEMPORARY Refuge Areas.

    So ( in California, anyway ), it’s perfectly OK ( and even ‘codified’ with ‘acronyms’ ) to not be able to access your established ‘Safety Zone’ via your established ‘Escape Route’… as long as you have a TRA somewhere in-between to save your ass?

    Well… ( to quote Dana Carvey )…

    “Isn’t that special”.

    This is one of those things that you just have to LAUGH at the way these ‘Forestry’ people try to ‘codify’ common sense with their little acronyms.

    Of COURSE if you have lost your situational awareness and you allow your established ‘Escape Routes’ to become compromised BEFORE you have the good sense to utilize them you are going to be ‘looking’ for a TRA to try and “Save Your Ass”.

    For people so fond of ‘acronyms’, it’s a wonder they didn’t just call them SOAZ ( Save Our Assess Zones ).

    SIDENOTE: It’s a shame Granite Mountain didn’t know about TRAs. They had one larger than a football field just 100 yards away from where they decided to go with the ‘shake and bakes’ instead.

    TRA or not… the situation STILL meets the ‘official’ NWCG definition of an ‘entrapment’ ( as you, yourself said so as you quoted that NWCG definition ).

    So let an INVESTIGATION determine whether the reason there were no fatalities or injuries during this classic ‘entrapment’ situation was because there just ‘happened’ to be a TRA around… and let the same investigation determine whether that really was a valid TRA… or whether these 14 firefighters are simply damn LUCKY to be alive.

    Bob Powers is now calling the building right next to the bunkhouse a ‘cookhouse’.

    Was there a PROPANE TANK there?

    Are we looking at a situation where if things had gone just a little differently… they might STILL be picking up body parts there at that ‘entrapment’ to try and figure out how many firefighters were even THERE?

    ** FOLLOWUP…

    Answering my own question from above.

    According to Google Satellite imagery taken just last February ( 2016 ) of this ‘Bear Divide Ranger Station’ there WAS a HUGE PROPANE TANK right next to the building.

    Once again… click the following link… and a ‘RED balloon’ will appear exactly on the roof of the building where the 14 FFs were able to survive their ‘entrapment’…

    https://www.google.com/maps/place/34%C2%B021'33.3%22N+118%C2%B023'48.2%22W/@34.3591946,-118.3967941,48m/data=!3m1!1e3!4m5!3m4!1s0x0:0x0!8m2!3d34.359256!4d-118.396735

    Go into ‘Satellite mode’ and then keep ‘Zooming down’ on the Building.( if all of that isn’t already done when the page appears ).

    Look just to SOUTH of the EAST corner of the building.

    About 25 feet off the SE corner of the building is a HUGE ( WHITE ) PROPANE TANK.

    We are talking about 20 feet long and probably a 1,000 ( ONE THOUSAND ) gallon Propane Tank within 25 feet of the building.

    The HUGE tank is partly ‘shaded’ in the ‘Satellite’ view because ( guess what )… there are LARGE TREES near this HUGE PROPANE TANK because that USFS facility itself was NOT ‘firewised’.

    So it really does look like, if things had gone just a little differently that day… investigators might STILL be picking up body parts there at that entrapment site.

    Are valid TRA’s allowed to have 1,000 ( ONE THOUSAND ) gallon PROPANE TANKS within 25 feet of them?

    Were these 14 firefighters even AWARE they were trying to survive a complete burnover / entrapment in a building with a 1,000 ( ONE THOUSAND ) gallon PROPANE TANK right next to it?

    • Woodsman says

      Remember you don’t bend them, you don’t break them….the 10 standing ORDERS. They are admitting the 10 can’t be followed always at all times. Whose wonky now? And don’t tell me a new acronym makes OK because it’s ‘in the book.’

      Woodsman

      • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

        Since these ‘Forestry people’ seem to have ‘acronyms’ for EVERYTHING ( and that tends to codify and/or justify ‘bad decison making’? )…

        …I wonder if they have an acronym for the following scenario…

        1. No LCES in place or it has been ‘compromised’ ( either because those involved think it’s ‘Hillbilly’ or that they are ‘smarter than that’ or because they just don’t give a fuck about that sort of thing and they are in it for the ‘Ranger Danger’ aspects of the ‘job’ ).

        2. No TRAs readily available.

        3. No survivable deployment site.

        Maybe there’s an ‘official’ acronym for THAT ‘scenario’, too.

        Something like?…

        WHOOPS ( We Had Objectives Other (than) Personnel Safety ).

        • Bob Powers says

          Here again your ignorance on the propane tank.

          Note– the Brick wall separating the tank from flammable material?????
          Sitting on a green grass lawn………

          Woodsman You know better.

          The only way there could be heat on that tank is if the building caught fire
          RIGHT???????.

          And yes there were severial 10 Standard orders that were not followed.

          But then again we are dealing with SBFD a City department but we will have to wait and see if a investigation happens.

          • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

            Reply to Bob Powers post on August 23, 2016 at 9:05 pm

            >> Bob Powers said…
            >>
            >> yes there were severial 10 Standard orders that
            >> were not followed.
            >>
            >> But then again we are dealing with SBFD a City department

            Well, actually, at this point ( see all the new posts up above )… there is no evidence than any SBFD or ‘City’ crew was involved in this entrapment/burnover at the Bear Divide Station at all.

            It appears to have been ONLY “US Forestry” firefighters ( Angeles Nation Forest Engine E19-ANF with Captain Ramon Chavez and crew… and US Forestry employee and ‘Squad Leader’ James Robledo and HIS ‘Crew’ ).

            There MAY have been at least one other ‘Engine’ involved but so far it’s not clear if that was even the case.

            That Bear Divide Station was the HOME of Engine E19-ANF, and Ramon Chavez and ‘Squad Leader’ James Robledo had apparently been given PERMISSION to both take their full ( separate ) CREWS there to that Station to try and ‘defend’ it when the all became ‘entrapped’.

            >> Bob Powers also said…
            >>
            >> We will have to wait and see if a investigation happens.

            It still appears for all the world like this was an official ‘entrapment’ involving ( perhaps ) ONLY US Forestry employees and it took place ON US Forestry property and AT an actual US Forestry ‘Station’.

            So if there is NOT an investigation… there will also have to be a reason given WHY it isn’t meeting the established criteria for having one.

            No one is saying anyone did anything wrong.

            But even from what we already know of the circumstances… it absolutely warrants an ‘investigation’ that might lead to ‘Lessons Learned’.

            Regardless of the SAFENET report already filed… US Forestry employee and ‘Squad Leader’ James Robledo has already testified to the media that in that attempt to save those HOUSES there at that facility… they became ENTRAPPED.

    • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

      Followup…

      Just in case anyone might be wondering what the sudden explosion of a 1,000 gallon propane tank might look like… here is just ONE video that shows it happening…

      The explosion of the 1,000 gallon propane tank comes at +34 seconds.

      LANGUAGE WARNING: The entire audio track for this video following the explosion is nothing but nonstop “Holy SHITS!”.

      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C_fXM2Fesag

      The propane tank at the Bear Creed Divide Ranger Station was only about 25 feet away from BOTH the ‘cookhouse’ and the ‘bunkhouse’ ( where the 14 entrapped firefighters took refuge ).

      If that propane tank had ( due to a bad chain of events or just plain bad luck ) ‘gone off’ during the complete burnover of that US Forestry compound… there probably would have been nothing left of EITHER the ‘cookhouse’ OR the ‘bunkhouse’.

      • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

        Same explosion of the same 1,000 gallon propane tank on September 9, 2013,
        in Schellville, just south of Sonoma, CA.

        Filmed from a different angle.

        In this one… the explosion comes at +19 seconds… but the same LANGUAGE WARNING applies. The entire second half of the video is nothing but “Holy SHITs!”

        https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OOpxRTzJWgU

        • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

          And here is what the explosion of a 1,000 gallon propane tank looks like at NIGHT… and near some buildings.

          WARNING: Some people might find this one disturbing. A firefighter was ‘injured’ ( but not killed ) in this propane tank explosion… but there is also a lot of SCREAMING in this one…

          https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AVEJVvIqRXs

      • Woodsman says

        Google BLEVE.

        What I can’t help but wonder is why 14 firefighters supposedly assigned to engines, which are required to be positioned for rapid egress, chose to shelter in place instead of hauling ass outta there. The fatal attraction of structures? Expectations of management? Structural firefighters assigned to those engines had to know that propane tank was there. What the hell is going on?

        Woodsman

        • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

          Since there hasn’t been an investigation ( yet )… it’s hard to say WHEN these firefighters totally lost their situation awareness… or WHY.

          If they, themselves, were just ‘assuming’ one of those buildings at that station qualified as a ‘valid Safety Zone’ ( and not just a TRA ‘Save our Assess Zone’ )… then here comes the “Nobody seems to know how big is big enough” question again when it comes to ‘Safety Zones’.

          The fact that there DOES appear to have been a no-shit 1,000 gallon propane tank just outside the building they chose to take refuge in ( as stupid as that was ) is secondary to the fact that they ended up ‘entrapped’ at that facility in the first place.

          Pretty rough terrain around there… but if they simply had been able to exit the driveway of the facility and get back up to that main highway… they should have been able to go anywhere they needed to be truly ‘safe’.

          Were they trying to ‘die on their swords’ just because the ‘structures’ at that facility happened to be ‘rented’ by ‘firefighters’?

          Prevention was the only cure here.

          One look at Google Maps shows that unless that entire compound had been ‘firewised’… there wasn’t much anyone could have done to save it.

          It had TWO ‘fuel choked’ canyons running right at it from both the north and the south and right up to the compound itself… with NO ‘fire breaks’ at those points where the fuel-choked canyons entered the compound itself.

          This was a pretty classic ‘California terrain’ scenario… and there are ( at least SHOULD be ) tons of “Lessons to Learn” here for all involved.

          I’m still trying to find out if SBFD ( while thankfully still PLUS 14 firefighters ) might be MINUS 2 or 3 ( or even 4 or 5? ) ‘Engines’.

        • Robert the Second says

          WTKTT and Woodsman,

          I have been packing my stuff for a fire assignment, so obviously not really paying attention to IM details, so I will will defer to whatever you find, for now.

          Check out the Jesusita Fire entrapment in 2009. Maybe they learned their lessons from them.

          https://higherlogicdownload.s3-external-1.amazonaws.com/WILDFIRELESSONS/Jesusita_Entrapment_Report.pdf?AWSAccessKeyId=AKIAJH5D4I4FWRALBOUA&Expires=1472009019&Signature=UF2q2Dyy6yCEXJ7x%2F8o9FQRbfAc%3D

          • Woodsman says

            Whoo doggie, that was a great read!

            Like I said, Cali is the founder & originator of the hybrid firefighter model.

            Fatal attraction of structures? You betcha don’t cha know.

            Structures identified as safety zones by fire line leadership. They prepositioned their scba’s inside the structure prior to arrival of the fire. While attempting to ride it out in their nifty TRA, a sliding glass door explodes giving them a clue that maybe it’s time for them to find another TRA but not before sustaining life threatening burns.

            Cul-de-sac identified as a safety zone with estimated 100′ flame lengths…

            Fatal attraction of structures!

            It’s shocking what effect trying to save a box of plywood & 2×4’s has on some people.

            Go Hybrids! Go!

            Woodsman

            • Woodsman says

              Based on new information by wtktt, I rescind my hybrid accusation on the Bear Divide entrapment as I now have reason to believe there were primarily USFS firefighters involved in defense of the federal facility.

              Woodsman

  17. WantsToKnowTheTruth says

    **
    ** BEAR CREEK DIVIDE RANGER STATION ‘ENTRAPMENT’ VIDEO

    Reply to Robert the Second ( RTS ) post on August 20, 2016 at 8:59 am

    >> RTS said…
    >>
    >> WTKTT, yes, the video clip from the HS Crew is only 6 seconds.
    >> I’m sure there are more. I sent it to you with hopes you’d be
    >> able to post it on IM.

    I have uploaded exactly what you sent me ( byte for byte ) to YouTube and set it as a PUBLIC video.

    The direct link to the video is…

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y1GjZm7dsaw

    I also added a full copy of the SAFENET that has already been filed with regards to this ‘entrapment’ to the ‘description’ of the video… just in case that original SAFENET report suddenly ‘disappears’ from the SAFENET database.

    Here is the ‘About’ text for this PUBLIC YouTube video…

    ——————————————————————————————–
    * BEAR CREEK DIVIDE RANGER STATION ENTRAPMENT

    This video was shot on July 23, 2016 by one of the firefighters who was involved in the ‘entrapment’ which took place at the ‘Bear Creek Divide Ranger/Fire Station’ in the Angeles National Forest, during the SAND FIRE of July-August 2016.

    The firefighter was ‘sheltering in place’ during the entrapment at the only building at that ‘Bear Divide Ranger Station’ which was NOT destroyed during the burnover at that location.

    The video is only 6 seconds in length, but it shows the fire as it was burning down the other structures at that ‘Bear Creek Divide Ranger Station’.

    Here is the actual SAFENET report filed regarding this ‘entrapment’ at the Bear Creek Divide Ranger Station on July 23, 2016…

    ( snip )
    A full copy of the SAFENET filed for this ‘entrapment’ incident
    ( /snip )
    —————————————————————————————

    NOTE: I can still find NO evidence that ANY kind of ‘investigation’ is taking place with regards to this near-fatal entrapment on the ‘Sand Fire’.

    Those firefighters are LUCKY to be ALIVE… and the entire incident NEEDS to be INVESTIGATED so that the “Lessons to Learn” can be also then become common knowledge.

    • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

      Followup… something very ODD just happened.

      Within 25 minutes of me posting that ‘Bear Creek Divide Ranger Station’ entrapment video ( with the accompanying copy of the SAFENET report )… the video received exactly 47 ( FORTY SEVEN ) ‘hits / views’.

      That is unusual.

      Only thing I can think that would cause that is because the ‘Sand Fire’ is still actively being reported in the media… and any number of ‘media’ outlets might have ‘Google Alerts’ set for themselves regarding anything that has anything to do with the ‘Sand Fire’ appearing on the ‘InterWeb’.

      So maybe some MSM ( Mainstream Media ) outlets are now fully aware of this near-fatal ‘entrapment’ that took place there at that Bear Creek Divide Ranger Station back on July 23… AND the associated ‘SAFENET’ report that was filed ( but no INVESTIGATION yet ).

      • Robert the Second says

        CORRECTION: The short video clip is NOT from the HS, it is from the entrapped SBFD Engine FF’s seeking refuge in the Bear Divide HS Barracks.

        • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

          Reply to Robert the Second ( RTS ) post
          August 22, 2016 at 8:59 am

          >> RTS said…
          >>
          >> CORRECTION: The short video clip is NOT from the HS,
          >> it is from the entrapped SBFD Engine FF’s seeking
          >> refuge in the Bear Divide HS Barracks.

          Copy that. I did NOT include any specific reference to WHO any of these FFs might have been in the ‘description’ of the video up at YouTube.

          The SAFENET itself ( oddly enough ) seems to be going out of its way to NOT ‘identify’ who ANY of these 14 FFs really were.

          You say that at least SOME of them ( including the guy who shot the 6 second video ) belonged to an Engine Crew from the ‘San Bernadino County Fire Department’… correct?

          But what about your original HS reference?

          Were ALL 14 of these trapped firefighters on SBFD Engines?… or were any of them Hotshots?

          The SAFENET just says it was ’14 firefighters’… but it DOES say they were ‘under the command’ of a ‘Structure Group Supervisor’.

          SIDENOTE: According to other articles… some of the houses / trailers that were there WERE occupied ( rented? ) by USFS ‘Hotshots’… but THEY were ( apparently ) not there and off working OTHER fires on July 23, 2016.

          If there were no ‘Hotshots’; involved… and all 14 FFs belonged to ‘Engines’… then did the Engines themselves suffer any damage?

          One of the photos above shows the ‘Forestry’ vehicle that was mentioned in the SAFENET and it was, in fact, totally destroyed.

          So just wondering about the ‘Engines’ themselves… if ( in fact ) all these FFs who survived that entrapment were all ‘Engine Crew’.

          14 FFs would represent ( what? )… at least THREE different ‘Engines’ that also had to have been parked there at that Ranger Station during the entrapment?

          • Robert the Second says

            WTKTT,

            You posted: “But what about your original HS reference? … Were ALL 14 of these trapped firefighters on SBFD Engines?… or were any of them Hotshots?”

            NONE of them were Hot Shots as far as I know. And that error was due mostly to fatigue from working long hours on a fire myself, and reading and typing it out on a cell phone.

            The Engines in Southern CA are usually configured into Strike Teams, consisting of FIVE (5) of the same kind and type, with common
            communications and a leader. They may be pre-established and sent to an incident – or – formed at an incident.

            So, the Engines could have been staffed with 2 to 5 personnel each.

            • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

              Thank you.

              So… ( correct me if I’m wrong )… it looks like the ‘responsibility’ for actually INVESTIGATING this ‘close-call’ and the near loss of 14 more firefighters in one swell foop lies with CALFIRE?

              As Google Maps Satellite views AND both PRE and POST burnover photographs indicate… that building where they were entrapped was by NO MEANS any kind of valid ‘Safety Zone’. They are simply damn lucky they chose the one structure at that compound that would NOT ending up burning to the ground.

              Just more “Bad decison making… with good outcomes”.

              Tick tock… tick tock.

              • Robert the Second says

                WTKTT,

                Not positive, but I think that the responsibility for an investigation would be based on whatever jurisdiction and/or whatever fire personnel involved.

                The incident would likely have been classified as an entrapment.

                The 2008 NWCG Glossary of Wildland Fire Terminology states:

                “Burnover – A situation where personnel or equipment is caught in an advancing flame front.”

                “Entrapment – A situation where personnel are unexpectedly caught in a fire behavior-related, life-threatening position where planned escape routes or safety zones are absent, inadequate, or compromised.”

                “An entrapment may or may not include deployment of a fire shelter for its intended purpose. These situations may or may not result in injury. They include “near misses.”‘

                This was definitely an entrapment, however, utilizing any sound structure as a safe area is acceptable and covered in the WUI training and referred to as TRA (Temporary Refuge Areas).

                • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

                  I agree there is no way this ‘incident’ would NOT meet the definition of an ‘entrapment’.

                  But “Sound Structure”?

                  Have another look at THIS photo of one of the “Sound Structures” there at that “Bear Creek Ranger Station” that burned up ( this is also the photo that shows the US Forestry Vehicle parked in front of it totally burned up )…

                  NOTE: When the following page appears… scroll down past the ‘Slideshow’ photo(s) at the TOP of the page to see the photo below that…

                  http://photos.dailynews.com/2016/07/photos-sand-fire-continues-to-move-toward-full-containment/#5

                  Concrete-Block building.
                  What appears to be a ‘tin’ roof as well.
                  Totally fucking DESTROYED.

                    • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

                      GROAN!… another brain fart, above… sorry.

                      The facility that burned up is, of course, US Forestry’s “Bear Divide Ranger Station”.

                      There is no ‘Creek’ in there at all.

                    • Robert the Second says

                      WTKTT,

                      In the WUI Structure Defense, California FIRESCOPE paper on page 3, they discuss the use of TEMPORARY Refuge Areas.

                      “Temporary Refuge Area (TRA) – a preplanned
                      area where firefighters can immediately take
                      refuge for temporary shelter and short – term relief without using a fire shelter in the event that emergency egress to an established Safety Zone is compromised. Examples: lee side of
                      structure, inside of structure, large lawn or parking area, cab of apparatus.
                      NOTE: Although Safety Zones and viable Escape Routes shall always be identified in the WUI environment, they may not be immediately available should the fire behavior increase unexpectedly. Often a Temporary Refuge Area (TRA) is more accessible in the WUI environment. A TRA will provide temporary shelter and short-term relief from an approaching fire without the use of a fire shelter and allow the responders to develop an alternate plan to safely survive the increase in fire behavior.”

                      Based on this definition, these FF”s did just that. I have heard Southern CA FF’s talk about doing this on several occasions. Even the house you refer to that EVENTUALLY burned down, provided the FF’s with a temporary safe zone out of the radiant and convective heat.

                      This is not something I plan on doing as the FF’s did on the Jesusita Fire, however, I definitely plan for them as a contingency.

                    • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

                      Reply to Robert the Second ( RTS ) post
                      on August 23, 2016 at 4:52 pm

                      >> In the WUI Structure Defense,
                      >> California FIRESCOPE paper on
                      >> page 3, they discuss the use of
                      >> TEMPORARY Refuge Areas.

                      So ( in California, anyway ), it’s perfectly OK ( and even ‘codified’ with ‘acronyms’ ) to not be able to access your established ‘Safety Zone’ via your established ‘Escape Route’… as long as you have a TRA somewhere in-between to save your ass?

                      Well… ( to quote Dana Carvey )…

                      “Isn’t that special”.

                      This is one of those things that you just have to LAUGH at the way these ‘Forestry’ people try to ‘codigy’ common sense with their little acronyms.

                      Of COURSE if you have lost your situational awareness and you allow your established ‘Escape Routes’ to become compromised BEFORE you have the good sense to utilize them you are going to be ‘looking’ for a TRA to try and “Save Your Ass”.

                      For people so fond of ‘acronyms’, it’s a wonder they didn’t just call them SOAZ ( Save Our Assess Zones ).

                      TRA or not… the situation STILL meets the ‘official’ NWCG definition of an ‘entrapment’ ( as you, yourself said up above ).

                      So let an INVESTIGATION determine whether the reason there were no fatalities or injuries during this classic ‘entrapment’ situation was because there just ‘happened’ to be a TRA around… and let the same investigation determine whether that really was a valid TRA… or whether these 14 firefighters are simply damn LUCKY to be alive.

                      Bob Powers is now calling the building right next to the bunkhouse a ‘cookhouse’.

                      Was there a PROPANE TANK there?

                      Are we looking at a situation where if things had gone just a little differently… they might STILL be picking up body parts there at that ‘entrapment’ to try and figure out how many firefighters were even THERE?

                    • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

                      WTKTT said…

                      ————————————————-
                      Bob Powers is now calling the building right next to the bunkhouse a ‘cookhouse’.

                      Was there a PROPANE TANK there?

                      Are we looking at a situation where if things had gone just a little differently… they might STILL be picking up body parts there at that ‘entrapment’ to try and figure out how many firefighters were even THERE?
                      ——————————————–

                      Answering my own question again.

                      According to Google Satellite imagery taken just last February ( 2016 ) of this ‘Bear Divide Ranger Station’ there WAS a HUGE PROPANE TANK right next to the building.

                      Once again… click the following link… and a ‘RED balloon’ will appear exactly on the roof of the building where the 14 FFs were able to survive their ‘entrapment’…

                      https://www.google.com/maps/place/34%C2%B021'33.3%22N+118%C2%B023'48.2%22W/@34.3591946,-118.3967941,48m/data=!3m1!1e3!4m5!3m4!1s0x0:0x0!8m2!3d34.359256!4d-118.396735

                      Go into ‘Satellite mode’ and then keep ‘Zooming down’ on the Building.

                      Look just to SOUTH of the EAST corner of the building.

                      About 25 feet off the SE corner of the building is a HUGE PROPANE TANK.

                      We are talking about 20 feet long and probably a 1,000 ( ONE THOUSAND ) gallon Propane Tank within 25 feet of the building.

                      The HUGE tank is partly ‘shaded’ in the ‘Satellite’ view because ( guess what )… there are LARGE TREES near this HUGE PROPANE TANK.

                      So it really does look like, if things had gone just a little differently that day… investigators might STILL be picking up body parts there at that entrapment site.

                      Are valid TRA’s allowed to have 1,000 ( ONE THOUSAND ) gallon PROPANE TANKS within 25 feet of them?

                    • Woodsman says

                      TRA…is that like a garage of a house a la Twisp? Personnel apparently are not seeing these fires coming & they are exceeding their expectations when they get there. Maybe we all need a national pause & reset of the entire wildfire system. It’s madness. Interagency teams, unified command, ICS….smooth as fucking silk.

                      Woodsman

                    • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

                      Reply to Woodsman post on
                      August 23, 2016 at 6:29 pm

                      >> Woodsman said…
                      >>
                      >> TRA…is that like a garage of a
                      >> house a la Twisp?

                      AYUP.

                      ‘Temporary Refuge Area’.

                      They ( the two Washington DNR guys and the contract dozer operator ) even elected to STAY in that ‘TRA’ ( a garage ) when they had the chance to LEAVE aboard one of the ( at least ) FOUR engines that was on Woods Canyon Road that afternoon.

                      But not long after they just let that ‘Engine’ leave without them onboard… the 3 of them found out what the ‘Temporary’ part of ‘Temporary Refuge Area’ means.

                      Their ‘TRA’ was now burning to the ground.

                      >> Woodsman also said…
                      >>
                      >> Personnel apparently are not
                      >> seeing these fires coming & they
                      >> are exceeding their expectations
                      >> when they get there. Maybe we
                      >> all need a national pause & reset
                      >> of the entire wildfire system. It’s
                      >> madness. Interagency teams,
                      >> unified command, ICS….smooth as
                      >> fucking silk.

                      I think the ‘wheels’ have been coming off the bus for quite some time now… and the ‘prime directive’ is simply to try and keep the PUBLIC from finding that out.

                      It’s actually a MIRACLE that they ( we ) aren’t having to drag dead firefighters off just about ANY of these major fires.

                      Can you imagine how many ‘close-calls’ take place very season that we NEVER even HEAR about?

                    • Woodsman says

                      I actually can imagine it as I witness a portion of the absurdity each year. If I had a dollar for every wannabe city firefighter that wants to use me & my agency for red card quals so they can get in the action, I would be able to take early retirement & wouldn’t need a pension check. Subsequently I annually lose my voice telling them NO! Alas, some find someone else who let’s them in the system & they end up on the fire lines across the land. You can’t fix stupid.

                      Woodsman

              • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

                Sort of ‘answering my own question’ here…

                Reply to WantsToKnowTheTruth ( WTKTT ) post
                on August 22, 2016 at 9:20 pm

                >> WTKTT said…
                >>
                >> So… ( correct me if I’m wrong )… it looks like
                >> the ‘responsibility’ for actually INVESTIGATING
                >> this ‘close-call’ and the near loss of 14 more
                >> firefighters in one swell foop lies with CALFIRE?

                Still not sure what the ‘command structure’ looked like on the day of the near-fatal entrapment itself ( Saturday, July 23, 2016 ) but as of the official InciWeb ‘morning report’ for the Sand Fire 7 days later, on June 30… the ‘Sand Fire’ had definitely gone to ‘Unified Command’ with SCIIM Team 3 IC Mike Wakoski ‘calling the shots’.

                CALFIRE was ( at that time ) just being listed as an ‘assisting agency’…

                InciWeb – The Sand Fire – Angeles National Forest
                http://inciweb.nwcg.gov/incident/article/4878/31990/

                —————————————————
                The Sand Fire is under unified command with Southern California Interagency Incident Management Team 3 ( Incident Commander Mike Wakoski ) and Los Angeles County Fire (Deputy Chief Vince Pena). Assisting agencies include Los Angeles Sheriff’s Department, Los Angeles Fire Department, California Office of Emergency Services, CAL FIRE, California Highway Patrol, Los Angeles County Public Works, Los Angeles Department of Water and Power, Southern California Edison, Metrolink, Los Angeles County Animal Care and Control, and American Red Cross.
                ——————————————————-

                • Bob Powers says

                  Bear Dived Station is Federal Land Angeles NF.

                  The Station buildings and Barracks are of Cinder Block Construction way safer than the pictures would indicate.
                  The roofs are almost flat with Tar covered with pea size rock the only wood showing is the Fascia and soffit. also the windows are metal framed set in concrete blocks.
                  WAY SAFER THAN A FIRE SHELTER.

                  Most of the Stations on the Angeles were built the same with Cinder Block construction in the 40s and 50s.

                  • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

                    Reply to Bob Powers post on
                    August 23, 2016 at 8:35 am

                    >> Bob Powers said…
                    >>
                    >> The Station buildings and Barracks
                    >> are of Cinder Block Construction
                    >> way safer than the pictures would indicate.

                    Really?

                    I guess you didn’t look at the photos I posted below of the destruction there at this Bear Creek Divide Ranger Station.

                    Here’s a relevant one…

                    http://photos.dailynews.com/2016/07/photos-sand-fire-continues-to-move-toward-full-containment/#5

                    Scroll down past the ‘Slideshow’ photo(s) at the top of the page to then see a photo of one of the totally DESTROYED ‘CB Block’ buildings there at that Bear Creek Divide Ranger station.

                    The CAPTION for this photo reads…

                    ————————————————
                    Fire crew survey a structure at the US Forest Service Bear Divide fire station that was destroyed by the Sand Fire in the Angeles National Forest above Santa Clarita on Sunday, July 31, 2016. The fire is 41,432 acres and 93 percent contained. (Photo by Watchara Phomicinda/ Southern California News Group)
                    ————————————————

                    >> Bob Powers also said…
                    >>
                    >> Most of the Stations on the Angeles
                    >> were built the same with Cinder Block
                    >> construction in the 40s and 50s.

                    And some of the ones at the Bear Creek Divide Ranger Station were still TOTALLY DESTROYED.

                    Again… see the photo at the link above.

                    >> Bob Powers also said…
                    >>
                    >> The roofs are almost flat with Tar
                    >> covered with pea size rock the only
                    >> wood showing is the Fascia and soffit.
                    >> also the windows are metal framed
                    >> set in concrete blocks.

                    Well… the ‘roofs’ at that Bear Creek Divide Ranger Station don’t match that description.

                    And as for the ‘windows’… see the photo above. They were destroyed as well.

                    >> Bob Powers also said…
                    >>
                    >> WAY SAFER THAN A FIRE SHELTER.

                    So what are you trying to say, Bob?

                    That these 14 Firefighters who became ‘entrapped’ at that Bear Creek Divide Ranger Station were never in any danger at all?

                    That they made GOOD decisions that day?

                    If so… I disagree.

                    I think they are ALL very ‘lucky to be alive’.

                    That ‘compound’ was not FIREWISED in any way… and was NOT any kind of valid SAFETY ZONE.

                    Satellite photos prove it.

                    Click the following LINK and ‘Google Maps’ will appear with a RED balloon sitting on the center of that ‘barracks’ building at the Bear Creek Divide Ranger Station where those FFs managed to SURVIVE that ‘entrapment’ on July 23, 2016…

                    https://www.google.com/maps/place/34%C2%B021'33.3%22N+118%C2%B023'48.2%22W/@34.3592604,-118.3989237,17z/data=!3m1!4b1!4m5!3m4!1s0x0:0x0!8m2!3d34.359256!4d-118.396735

                    Go into ‘Satellite’ mode.
                    Keep ‘Zooming down’ on the little RED ‘ballon’ which marks the ‘barracks’.

                    Looks like the ‘roofs’ have been updated to ASPHALT SHINGLES ( which burn well )… and look at all the fucking TREES surrounding the building.

                    That ‘area’ was not even ‘firewised’ in ANY way.

                    There are WAY too many ( big ) trees near that ‘barracks’ and WAY too close to the building.

                    Some of those BIG trees are actually TOUCHING the buildings.

                    Those FFs who became entrapped in that ‘barracks’ building are ‘lucky to be alive’.

                    And this actually brings up a “Lesson to Learn” even if there is never any official investigation of this incident.

                    It’s a “Practice What You Preach” lesson.

                    How can US Forestry ever expect people building in the WUI to take all these “You MUST firewise” crap seriously when US Forestry itself doesn’t even do it for their OWN ‘Ranger Stations’ out there in the boondock?

                    These USFS ‘Ranger Stations’ out in the middle of nowhere should ALL be a ‘shining example’ of how to FIREWISE a structure/compound.

                    But this ‘Bear Creek Divide Station’ that just burned to the ground was nothing but a ‘shining example’ of what NOT to do.

                    • Woodsman says

                      Exactly. There should be absolutely no excuses for losing buildings like that. I don’t give a shit who told whom to burnout, not burnout, or what?? No prep should be needed except for minimal checks for any USFS ranger station to withstand fire. They should be maintained consistently at the beginning of each season. I also agree that they should be the example. No excuse.

                      And just where was this hotshot crew located while their housing burned to the ground? Not off forest, I hope. Sure would suck to get that message.

                      Can’t wait for my buddy Ol’ Gary to read this one – gonna be great fun to hear his assessment of the situation.

                      Woodsman

                    • Bob Powers says

                      The buildings you posted were wood construction the one that had the metal roof was Cinder Block it stood the metal roof collapsed on it note the small building that stood in front of the building on the station that burned same construction as I stated.

                      The Barracks and cook house did not burn what else do you need to know.

                      I will say this plain —I have been to the Bear Divide Station on several occasions while on the Angeles NF.

                      Talked with two of my friends who told me that the Barracks and Cook house were not damaged. There was a storage house and several trailers that burned. along with a building that had a metal roof which was a training facility according to my friends. The rest of the station was just fine and was not touched by the fire.

                      They were safer there than any place else.

                      THE BARRACKS NEVER CAUGHT FIRE It also had a Green lawn clear around it and the Cook House.

                      IT WAS WAY SAFFER THAN A POTATO BACKER…………..Fire Shelter……………………….

                      Your assessment of Fire wise comes from where???? You have seen no pictures of the complete compound to make that assessment.

                      TWO BUILDINGS BURNED and 4 TRAILORS ON THE COMPOUND. That’s IT…………..

                    • Robert the Second says

                      See post above on ‘Temporary Refuge Areas.”

                      http://www.investigativemedia.com/please-begin-yarnell-hill-fire-chapter-xxiii-here/#comment-345244

                      WTKTT and Woodsman, I agree with you on Federal compounds, that they should be good, shining examples of Firewise. instead of in the ‘Red Rock’ category.

                      And this Hot Shot Crew and other nearby South Zone HS Crews were likely on fire assignments off-forest and/or other Division(s) on the same fire for all we know. while their housing burned to the ground.

                      That’s the way it goes sometimes. There are only so many Resources.

              • Robert the Second says

                WTKTT,

                Based on your post above regarding USFS (Angles NF) and Los Angeles County and CDF, I would say that the USFS and LA County would be the responsible investigative agencies, with maybe the SBFD because of their FF’s being involved, Maybe

                • Bob Powers says

                  We all herd from several of you that M should have ran to the Rocks rather than lie down and die.

                  Well these FF decided that the Barracks was the safest place to be and 14 survived with out injury the Barracks did not burn. Accordingly there are no reports of their Engines Burning either unless I missed something?????

                  What more do you want?????????????

                    • Charlie says

                      While they are at it, it would not be a bad idea to investigate the local Presbyterian Church and see how they distributed their hundreds of thousands in donations. A couple people to talk to are the McCrakins, lost it all, but got a bad treatment by their account. This was not really a church deal, but instead the church was used. Anyone that handles hundreds of thousands of donations wont mind an investigation–especially since they are Christian oriented.

                    • Charlie says

                      Bob said:Back to your Fucking they could run to the Rocks at Yarnell. These guys went to the safest structure on the Compound and walked away. Again what the Fuck do you want.

                      There’s a lot more to this story if you want it tomorrow Good Luck.

                      Ok Bob, I do wonder if you have been to the death site. I think if not, you could get permission with your credentials. Tell Chief Ben Palm that you are a top dog in wild land fire fighting–that should get you permission. They will shoot anyone else if they get near the site.

                      If you get there tell me that the boulders would not be a better alternative than taking the time to build brush around yourself with those flimsy blankets that melted like the lead out of those old tin cans.

                      I am just an old miner, civilian, and some degree of a mountain man since child hood. Maybe I am missing something, but with that boulder pile, and if you investigate it as I have, I would say every man would have survived had they used that huge area of boulders.

                      Tell me, did I fuck up by taking myself and Joy out through the boulders? I thought that was our hope, whilst we did not have copters to get us out or people to rescue us, or promise of retardant and water drops on our heads.

                      I am reminded of the GMHS who for some crazy reason, took a dive into a danger zone that Joy and I had to argue over. She wanted to do that dive as well. But Joy had no previous knowledge of fires and what they can do or how brewing storms can change winds in a heartbeat.

                      I am game to listen because I know you know your shit from years of fire fighting. I am only an old miner wild limited knowledge. The fuck up by the GMHS bosses, maybe you have some inside dope to share as to how that could happen since I am baffled, yet am not in a way because as sure as I am sitting here some one ordered this disaster.

                  • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

                    Reply to Bob Powers post on
                    August 23, 2016 at 5:31 pm

                    >> Bob Powers said…
                    >>
                    >> Well these FF decided that the Barracks
                    >> was the safest place to be and 14
                    >> survived with out injury.

                    How do we KNOW there were ‘no injuries’?

                    They are trying to PRETEND this Incident ‘never even happened’… so how do we KNOW no one was injured or suffered an ‘ill effects’?

                    >> Bob Powers said…
                    >>
                    >> The Barracks did not burn.

                    And it ended up just about the ONLY structure at that compound that did NOT burn.

                    So those firefighters are DAMN LUCKY.

                    >> Bob Powers also said…
                    >>
                    >> Accordingly there are no reports of
                    >> their Engines Burning either unless
                    >> I missed something?????

                    There are ‘no reports’ of any vehicles damages except that one Forestry Vehicle which was absolutely TOASTED.

                    If they are actively trying to ‘cover this up’… then they may have totally LOST any number of Engines and they are just not admitting it ( yet ).

                    >> Bob Powers also said…
                    >>
                    >> What more do you want?????????????

                    Just the usual. The TRUTH.

                    Are YOU seriously taking the position that 90+ percent of a US Forestry compound was totally destroyed and 14 firefighters who became ‘entrapped’ at that facility just ‘happened’ to survive there…

                    …and that this is just “No big whoop”?

                    “Nothing to see ( or LEARN ) here”?
                    “Move along… move along?”

                    • Bob Powers says

                      WTKTT
                      Again you are wrong what the Fuck do you want.

                      FIVE of the Ranger Station Structures were not damaged.

                      Where are you getting 90%.????

                      Did you read the information on the 14 or did you just ignore it????

                      They had some smoke inhalation but did not require medical attention. NO BURNS NO INJURIES.

                      You are trying to make this some big whoop not me.

                      Do I believe there should be a full investigation Hell Yes.

                      My information says most of the structures on the compound were not Burned.

                      Until you have the entire picture stop making things up.

                      90% you really are a Dumb SOB.

                      Back to your Fucking they could run to the Rocks at Yarnell. These guys went to the safest structure on the Compound and walked away. Again what the Fuck do you want.

                      There’s a lot more to this story if you want it tomorrow Good Luck.

                      You certainty are making up your own.

                    • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

                      >> Bob Powers said…
                      >>
                      >> Do I believe there should
                      >> be a full investigation Hell Yes.

                      Thank you.

                      For a minute there.. I actually thought you were trying to say this was “No big whoop… Nothing to see here… Move along”.

                      >> Bob Powers said…
                      >>
                      >> My information says most of the
                      >> structures on the compound
                      >> were not Burned.

                      Well… unless you want to ‘share’ exactly where ‘your information’ is coming from… I think I’ll stick with actual post-fire PHOTOGRAPHS of the area which show it was MOSTLY DESTROYED.

                      And when I say 90+ percent burned… I’m NOT talking about just the ‘structures’ that were there.

                      The place BURNED OVER, Bob.

                      BIG TIME.

                      >> Bob Powers said…
                      >>
                      >> They had some smoke inhalation
                      >> but did not require medical
                      >> attention. NO BURNS NO INJURIES.

                      There ARE reports of ‘mysterious injuries’ on this ‘Sand Fire’… and in the timeframe associated with the July 23, 2016 ‘burnover’ there at that Bear Divide Ranger Station.

                      But officials will NOT confirm WHERE ( or HOW ) these ‘injuries’ were sustained.

                      Can YOU tell me ( for sure and certain ) these ‘injuries’ were NOT related to that ‘burnonver’ at that Ranger Station?…

                      Here is just ONE article where these mysterious ‘firefighter injuries’ are being reported…

                      http://www.dailynews.com/general-news/20160731/massive-sand-fire-nearly-contained-after-more-than-a-week

                      ——————————————-
                      One of the region’s biggest fires in years, the Sand fire started July 22 near Sand Canyon Road and the 14 Freeway in Santa Clarita. The cause of the blaze is still under investigation.

                      The fire killed one man, 67-year-old Robert Bresnick, who apparently died fleeing the fire in his car, fire officials said.

                      Additionally, three firefighters were injured,
                      ——————————————-

                      SAFENETS do NOT often tell “the whole story”.

                    • Bob Powers says

                      I just love your snarky little Games WTKTT.

                      1. Information comes from personal friends that are retired one was the Superintendent at Bear Divide he went to the station when the road was open.

                      Injuries to FF are numerous from twisted ankles to smoke inhalation and dehydration.
                      to Burns on a fire this size with Thousands of FF your guess is as good as mine.

                      You are making a lot of Move drama here with out specific facts.

                      Do not take News media as all there is they take pictures of burned building not the ones that did not burn.

                      Also clarify your self when you say 90% of the building were burned and then say you meant that the fire burned 90% of the fuel.

                      Ill stick to my information from reliable sources.

                • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

                  Copy that.

                  I’m actually trying to ‘reconstruct’ the actual first 48 hours of this ‘Sand Fire’… as far as ‘management’ goes… but it’s slow going so far.

                  The ‘Sand’ Fire actually STARTED on Friday, July 22, 2016 at about 2:10 p.m. along the northbound side of the freeway near Sand Canyon Road.

                  The ‘Initial Response’ was all ‘Los Angeles County Fire Department’ and LACFD was also where the first ‘announcements’ and ‘alerts’ about this ‘new’ wildfire were originating.

                  It’s hard to tell how rapidly ( or not ) the ‘command structure’ changed as the fire increased all day Friday and on into Saturday, July 23… up to the time the ‘entrapment’ took place at that Bear Divide Ranger Station.

                  One Local LA news agency says that the ‘command and control’ for this Sand Fire was ALWAYS totally with the “Los Angeles County Fire Department’ ( LACFD ).

                  There is no question, however, that the ‘entrapment’ itself took place ON a ‘National Forest’ ( the Angeles ) and AT an actual US Forestry ‘facility’ ( The Bear Divide Ranger Station ).

                  More later.

                  • Bob Powers says

                    Once the Fire hits the forest then you end up with s Unified Command.
                    All Agencies that have land evolved go into their Co-op Agreements and set up the overhead structure.

                    Gets a little confusing.
                    The Structure Protection units at Bear Divide sounds to be San Bernardino (City or County Units) Still confusing here as to number of Engines W the 14 FF.
                    Their job was to PROTECT THE BEAR DIVIDE STATION ? Don’t know?
                    That in its self put them entrapped at the Station when the fire made a run at them.
                    The new WLUI structure protection.

    • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

      ** MORE ‘INFORMATION’ ( AND PHOTOS ) REGARDING THE
      ** ‘BEAR CREEK DIVIDE RANGER STATION’ ENTRAPMENT
      ** WHICH TOOK PLACE JULY 23, 2016 ON THE ‘SAND FIRE’.

      U.S. Forest Service – Bear Divide Fire Station
      Address: 21501 N Sand Canyon Road, Canyon Country, CA 91387
      The entrance to ‘N Sand Canyon Road’ and the ‘Bear Divide Ranger/Fire Station’ is off of Little Tujunga Canyon Road, right near where it intersects with the ‘Santa Clara Truck Trail.

      GPS coordinates ( decimal ) for the ‘Bear Divide Ranger/Fire Station’ are…
      Latitude: 34.359256
      Longitude: -118.396735

      34.359256, -118.396735

      Click the following LINK and ‘Google Maps’ will appear with a RED balloon sitting on the center of that ‘barracks’ building at the Bear Creek Divide Ranger Station where those FFs managed to SURVIVE that ‘entrapment’ on July 23, 2016…

      https://www.google.com/maps/place/34%C2%B021'33.3%22N+118%C2%B023'48.2%22W/@34.3592604,-118.3989237,17z/data=!3m1!4b1!4m5!3m4!1s0x0:0x0!8m2!3d34.359256!4d-118.396735

      BTW… the man who was killed in the ‘Sand Fire’… Robert Bresnick, 67, was discovered dead about 7:20 p.m. Saturday, July 23 ( same day as the entrapment ) inside a burned car parked in a driveway outside a home in the 26700 block of Iron Canyon Road in Santa Clarita.

      That is only 2.58 miles north ( and slightly west ) of the ‘Bear Divide Ranger / Fire Station’.

      For ‘perspective’… 2.58 miles is just a little farther than the distance between the Granite Mountain Hotshots ‘lunch spot’ and the center of the Boulder Springs Ranch.

      Reports say he was trying to save his ( two ) dogs from his residence there on Iron Canyon Road but then got trapped by the fire and tried to survive inside of of his car.

      If the firefighters at the Bear Creek Divide Ranger Station did not have that ‘building’ in which to shelter and had tried to ‘ride out’ the burnover in vehicles… they MAY have simply suffered the same fate as Mr. Robert Bresnick that day.

      ** WILDFIRE TODAY photo…

      Wildfire Today
      Article Title: Sand fire destroys homes near fire station in the Angeles National Forest
      http://wildfiretoday.com/2016/07/27/sand-fire-destroys-fire-station-in-the-angeles-national-forest/

      PHOTO AT TOP OF ARTICLE
      The remains of one of the Bear Divide Ranger Station buildings in the burned Angeles Forest.

      Direct link to the photo itself…
      http://wildfiretoday.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/07/img_3585-768×576.jpg

      The photo was taken HERE… looking almost due SOUTH from the spot where ‘N Sand Canyon Road’ ( which is also the driveway for the ‘Bear Canyon Divide Ranger / Fire Station’ ) intersects with the Santa Clara Truck Trail.

      Latitude: 34.359923
      Longitude: -118.395463
      34.359923, -118.395463

    • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

      ** MORE ‘INFORMATION’ ( AND PHOTOS ) REGARDING THE
      ** ‘BEAR CREEK DIVIDE RANGER STATION’ ENTRAPMENT
      ** WHICH TOOK PLACE JULY 23, 2016 ON THE ‘SAND FIRE’.

      U.S. Forest Service – Bear Divide Fire Station
      Address: 21501 N Sand Canyon Road, Canyon Country, CA 91387
      The entrance to ‘N Sand Canyon Road’ and the ‘Bear Divide Ranger/Fire Station’ is off of Little Tujunga Canyon Road, right near where it intersects with the ‘Santa Clara Truck Trail.

      GPS coordinates ( decimal ) for the ‘Bear Divide Ranger/Fire Station’ are…
      Latitude: 34.359256
      Longitude: -118.396735

      34.359256, -118.396735

      Click the following LINK and ‘Google Maps’ will appear with a RED balloon sitting on the center of that ‘barracks’ building at the Bear Creek Divide Ranger Station where those FFs managed to SURVIVE that ‘entrapment’ on July 23, 2016…

      https://www.google.com/maps/place/34%C2%B021'33.3%22N+118%C2%B023'48.2%22W/@34.3592604,-118.3989237,17z/data=!3m1!4b1!4m5!3m4!1s0x0:0x0!8m2!3d34.359256!4d-118.396735

      BTW… the man who was killed in the ‘Sand Fire’… Robert Bresnick, 67, was discovered dead about 7:20 p.m. Saturday, July 23 ( same day as the entrapment ) inside a burned car parked in a driveway outside a home in the 26700 block of Iron Canyon Road in Santa Clarita.

      That is only 2.58 miles north ( and slightly west ) of the ‘Bear Divide Ranger / Fire Station’.

      For ‘perspective’… 2.58 miles is just a little farther than the distance between the Granite Mountain Hotshots ‘lunch spot’ and the center of the Boulder Springs Ranch.

      Reports say he was trying to save his ( two ) dogs from his residence there on Iron Canyon Road but then got trapped by the fire and tried to survive inside of of his car.

      If the firefighters at the Bear Creek Divide Ranger Station did not have that ‘building’ in which to shelter and had tried to ‘ride out’ the burnover in vehicles… they MAY have simply suffered the same fate as Mr. Robert Bresnick that day.

      ** WILDFIRE TODAY photo…

      Wildfire Today
      Article Title: Sand fire destroys homes near fire station in the Angeles National Forest
      http://wildfiretoday.com/2016/07/27/sand-fire-destroys-fire-station-in-the-angeles-national-forest/

      PHOTO AT TOP OF ARTICLE
      The remains of one of the Bear Divide Ranger Station buildings in the burned Angeles Forest.

      Direct link to the photo itself…
      http://wildfiretoday.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/07/img_3585-768×576.jpg

      The photo was taken HERE… looking almost due SOUTH from the spot where ‘N Sand Canyon Road’ ( which is also the driveway for the ‘Bear Canyon Divide Ranger / Fire Station’ ) intersects with the Santa Clara Truck Trail.

      Latitude: 34.359923
      Longitude: -118.395463
      34.359923, -118.395463

      ( Continued Next ‘Reply’ due to the ‘only 2 links per post’ rule )…

    • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

      ** MORE ‘INFORMATION’ ( AND PHOTOS ) REGARDING THE
      ** ‘BEAR CREEK DIVIDE RANGER STATION’ ENTRAPMENT
      ** WHICH TOOK PLACE JULY 23, 2016 ON THE ‘SAND FIRE’.

      U.S. Forest Service – Bear Divide Fire Station
      Address: 21501 N Sand Canyon Road, Canyon Country, CA 91387
      The entrance to ‘N Sand Canyon Road’ and the ‘Bear Divide Ranger/Fire Station’ is off of Little Tujunga Canyon Road, right near where it intersects with the ‘Santa Clara Truck Trail.

      GPS coordinates ( decimal ) for the ‘Bear Divide Ranger/Fire Station’ are…
      Latitude: 34.359256
      Longitude: -118.396735

      34.359256, -118.396735

      Click the following LINK and ‘Google Maps’ will appear with a RED balloon sitting on the center of that ‘barracks’ building at the Bear Creek Divide Ranger Station where those FFs managed to SURVIVE that ‘entrapment’ on July 23, 2016…

      https://www.google.com/maps/place/34%C2%B021'33.3%22N+118%C2%B023'48.2%22W/@34.3592604,-118.3989237,17z/data=!3m1!4b1!4m5!3m4!1s0x0:0x0!8m2!3d34.359256!4d-118.396735

      BTW… the man who was killed in the ‘Sand Fire’… Robert Bresnick, 67, was discovered dead about 7:20 p.m. Saturday, July 23 ( same day as the entrapment ) inside a burned car parked in a driveway outside a home in the 26700 block of Iron Canyon Road in Santa Clarita.

      That is only 2.58 miles north ( and slightly west ) of the ‘Bear Divide Ranger / Fire Station’.

      For ‘perspective’… 2.58 miles is just a little farther than the distance between the Granite Mountain Hotshots ‘lunch spot’ and the center of the Boulder Springs Ranch.

      Reports say he was trying to save his ( two ) dogs from his residence there on Iron Canyon Road but then got trapped by the fire and tried to survive inside of of his car.

      If the firefighters at the Bear Creek Divide Ranger Station did not have that ‘building’ in which to shelter and had tried to ‘ride out’ the burnover in vehicles… they MAY have simply suffered the same fate as Mr. Robert Bresnick that day.

      ** WILDFIRE TODAY photo…

      Wildfire Today
      Article Title: Sand fire destroys homes near fire station in the Angeles National Forest
      http://wildfiretoday.com/2016/07/27/sand-fire-destroys-fire-station-in-the-angeles-national-forest/

      PHOTO AT TOP OF ARTICLE
      The remains of one of the Bear Divide Ranger Station buildings in the burned Angeles Forest.

      ( Continued Next ‘Reply’ due to the ‘only 2 links per post’ rule )…

    • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

      ** BEAR CREEK DIVIDE RANGER STATION ‘ENTRAPMENT’…
      **
      ** DAILY NEWS PHOTO 1…

      Photo 19 on this page shows one of the burned residences at the ‘Bear Divde Ranger / Fire Station’…

      http://photos.dailynews.com/2016/07/photos-deadly-sand-fire-destroys-18-homes-burns-22000-acres/#1

      ** DAILY NEWS PHOTO 2…

      More DAILY NEWS photos… with a GOOD one ( Photo 5 of 13 ) of building(s) destroyed at the Bear Divide Ranger Station…

      The following link has a number of photos of the burned ‘Bear Divide Ranger Station’
      and the area around it…

      Photo 5 is by Watchara Phomicinda/ Southern California News Group…

      This photo ALSO shows the ‘Forest Service’ vehicle that was destroyed…

      http://photos.dailynews.com/2016/07/photos-sand-fire-continues-to-move-toward-full-containment/#1

    • Charlie says

      Scary stuff that retardant–indeed. It may be the silent killer next to its twin agent orange, why I call it agent orange retardant. Twenty one thousand fish die in the Fall River once doused with this crap and we are not alarmed to dump it on and near our residences.

      Let me give you a little of my own history with this stuff. Not before but after the many hikes we made over and around this stuff, I began to lack breath in a big way. Sometimes I would find myself having to pause when walking across the Wal Mart parking lot and any kind of hike was a challenge. When finally I did go to the Doctor about this problem, he ran the tests. He stated your heart is at risk, you are not getting enough oxygen to the heart. It was determined as well that I was in the beginning stages of COPD, needed heart stents, and warned if I did not get them a heart attack would be eminent The actual heart attack happened after I had the stents and had just visited the cardiologist complaining of heart pains. It was right outside his office at the Prescott VA that I attempted to get into the emergency entrance but could not make it. About all I remember was the excruciatinig pain that goes along with a heart attack. I was transferred to the Yavapai Regional Hospital where Joy says I was at for ten days, in the Intensive Care Unit. They had to put in two more stents, and those did not last but a few weeks until I again was returned, this time by helicopter from the Congress gas station back to ICU where two more stents were added to the four. Thank God for morphine at the hospital because I would have gladly jumped out of that copter above the Weavers to get rid of that pain. Those boys in the copter have no pain meds and give you only a fucking aspirin that is worthless, but they do hope it thins your blood to keep you alive. So that thirty minute trip back to Prescott is one I hate to remember.

      The point is, I see that many of the Yarnell people after the fire were complaing that they were having breathing problem–mostly older folk, but a few we know in their 40’s and 50’s which I consider young. Well even my age is young at seventy if you look at my many aunt’s on my Dad’s side. They were in their 90’s, When I visited, Aunt Minni she was cooking wild blackberry pies and taking care of her worn out second husband, Bill of 65 years of age. He couldn’t go into the back yard and fetch a bucket of water with the hand pump. On the farm, there was no running water, and their toilet was an outhouse, yet that place was spotless and that lady knew how to manage well. That blackberry pie was made with berries I helped pick and at that time their farm land was being farmed by a relative since Bill was out of commission.

      The thing is, their environment was clean, and chemicals were not a part of their world–they attended church on a tractor, their only transportation–and about the only thing that second husband could manage to do.

      In this fast forwarded world of chemical applications people seem to look the other way, but just as lawsuits and knowledge and internet access have increased, people have become aware of how big business had and has managed to pull the wool over the public eye. You still see people smoking cigarettes despite the knowledge of their health destructiveness. They are brain washed into doing these poisons and the big business tycoons smile at the profits they make despite the horrible effects their product has on people. Indeed, anytime the human body ingests these chemicals it suffers. Of the twenty one hidden chemicals, some are cumulative, meaning these young firemen will not have health effects until later in life. With older folks, we have already accumulated enough chemical from everyday life, now add a dose of highly reactive ammonia with the other chemical soup and our already compromised immune system, lungs, heart, the effects are deadly. We see cancer, heart attacks, COPD, escalated –partly due (maybe mostly) due to the depletion of lung capacity directly caused by the lung killing ammonia in that retardant. Satellite pictures showed a high concentration of NH3 in the Yarnell area after the fire—other chemicals were not evaluated.

      This is serious business–the millions made on retardant dumps is an industry that will fight to keep feeding you their deadly soup. When people are in a money game they are winners–with those billions they can buy many of the political cronies and use every psychological ploy and brain washing method to make the public believe their shit is safe. Don’t buy it.

      Now we come to the Yarnell Fire. They will say that this retardant did save homes despite a 45mph fire that was laid down by fierce winds and went though those dumps like they were not there. Half the town burned, and without the dumps half the town would have burned anyway. I believe these people that run the fires damn well know this, but again drop this shit as much as you can because it looks good to the public, plenty millions are made and passed around, and who gives a shit about the aftermath on health to individuals that supposedly had their town saved by that shit. I am certain many of the lower bosses are fooled, but plenty are not and are in on the game and do not question these antics.

      I have learned much from some of the most experienced and knowledgeable wild land fire fighting elite. Not all agree with the retardant idea that I think is a deadly solution to attempts at hindering a fire. I do know in a fierce wind like we had that shit is practically useless to stop or even slow a fire. We saw it at Yarnell–but do not hold your breath–another Yarnell fire, the Tenderfoot Fire with the backburn started by local firemen caused the need to again drop tons of that retardant right next residents on the east side of HWY 89. Again a reason that local firemen ought to stay out of the wild land fire fighting business unless they put out such things as a lightening strike. I did not see that backburn as proper by what a knowledgeable wild land fire fighting crew would have done under those conditions where the fire was on the other side of a mountain and being driven away from Yarnell.

      I think it does go to prove what Gary says, wild land fire fighting and structure fire fighting do not mix. However the locals did get a great write up as if they saved Yarnell–that is the hero worshipers trying to make the public believe a lie. They did not save Yarnell by that burn but did burn three structures, mess up the electrical supply for days, and cause another chemical drop right next to town. Accolades again–unreasonable–I do recommend structure fire fighters to stay with your occupation–leave the wild land decisions to people that know proper proceedure.

    • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

      **
      ** BEAR CREEK DIVIDE RANGER STATION ‘ENTRAPMENT’…
      **
      ** ‘GO FUND ME’ ACCOUNTS RAISE MONEY FOR FIREFIGHTERS
      ** WHO LOST HOMES AT THAT ‘BEAR DIVIDE RANGER STATION’.

      The fact that most of the buildings at that ‘Bear Creek Divide Ranger Station’ burned to the ground was being reported early on… but there was NEVER any mention of the ‘entrapment’ of the 14 firefighters which ALSO took place at the same time at that ‘Station’… on July 23, 2016.

      Here is just another article going on about how at least one of the FFs who were occupying those destroyed homes/trailers had also already lost his home in another fire earlier this year…

      This article NAMES those firefighters who were occupying those homes at this ‘Bear Creek Divide Ranger Station’.

      KTLA – Channel 5 – Los Angeles
      Article Title: Firefighter Whose Home Burned in 2009 Blaze Loses Home in Sand Fire
      Published: 7:25 PM, July 25, 2016, by Cindy Von Quednow,
      http://ktla.com/2016/07/25/firefighter-loses-second-home-in-sand-fire/

      From that article…
      ————————————————————————-
      A firefighter who had previously lost a home in a major 2009 blaze lost another home in the Sand Fire, which has scorched more than 50 square miles in the eastern Santa Clarita area, officials said.

      Five homes associated with the Bear Divide Ranger Station were destroyed in the Sand Fire — and three of those homes were occupied by firefighting personnel, the Los Angeles Times reported. One of the firefighters also lost a home during the Station Fire in 2009, Angeles National Forest fire Chief Robert Garcia told the newspaper.

      The Santa Clarita Valley Signal identified the three firefighters as Ramon Chavez, James Robledo and Sergio Toscano.

      Multiple fundraising efforts have sprung up online to help raise money for the firefighters and their families.

      As of Tuesday morning, a GoFundMe account for Toscano, a senior firefighter for the Little Tujunga Hotshots, had raised more than $20,000. Toscano’s son was staying with the firefighter’s mother elsewhere when the Sand Fire hit their home, according to the GoFundMe account set up on his behalf.

      According to an update on the page, the funds will be split with other Forest Service families affected by the blaze.

      A YouCaring page — which has raised just shy of raising $10,000 as of Tuesday morning — was set up for the Chavez, Robledo and Toscano families, along with the Shock family, which also lost a home in the area.

      The Sand Fire has burned more than 35,000 acres, destroyed 18 homes. One person was found dead in the burn area; he had not been identified.
      ————————————————————————-

      NOTE: The person who was found dead did NOT die in the actual ‘Bear Divide Ranger Station’ burnover. He was found dead in his car about 2.58 miles north of that ‘Ranger Station’. He had returned to his home to try and save his 2 dogs and became ‘entrapped’ himself and then tried to ‘ride out’ the burnover in his vehicle. He was found dead inside that vehicle in the 26700 block of Iron Canyon Road in Santa Clarita.

      The deceased man was Robert Bresnick, 67 years old.

      His body was discovered at 7:20 p.m. Saturday, July 23, just a few hours AFTER the ‘entrapment’ of the 14 firefighters at the ‘Bear Divide Ranger Station’.

      • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

        Corrections for the post above.

        I must have ‘Creek’ on the brain today, for some reason.

        Anywhere it says ‘Bear Creek Divide’ above… should have just been ‘Bear Divide’.

        It was the ‘Bear Divide Ranger Station’ that was destroyed in the fire.

        There is no ‘Creek’ in the name.

      • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

        Reply to Diane lomas post on August 23, 2016 at 4:58 pm

        >> Diane lomas said…
        >>
        >> Arizona 100 Club-interesting article by azcentral about
        >> investigation of the 100 Club resulting in resignation of Sharon Felix.

        Thank you for the ‘heads up’ on this, Diane.

        There have ALWAYS been rumors ( and some evidence / testimony ) that this ‘Arizona 100 Club’ outfit was playing ‘fast and loose’ with the Yarnell Hill Fire public donations.

        Looks like the ‘Board’ of this outfit now thinks they can just throw this ‘Sharon-Knutson Felix’ person ‘under the bus’ and be ‘done with it’.

        We all know things are never that simple and what has now been revealed might only be the ‘tip of the iceberg’.

        Here’s a link to a longer ‘Reply’ up above with a link to the actual ‘Arizona Republic’ investigation / report…

        http://www.investigativemedia.com/please-begin-yarnell-hill-fire-chapter-xxiii-here/#comment-345277

  18. Joy A. Collura says

    I want everyone to know my time with Snakeman I learned about Hybrids —of the snake world…

    On here I learned about hybrids of the firefighter world but on the Granite Mountain set there is an actor I do not think he gets it-

    the snake on his neck has too large a head to be just a bulll snake…it is a hybrid between a rattler and bull…Snakeman use to have the bull snake in with the Rattler and when it had babies they looked strange as a baby…I have seen up close and photos or on my zazzle page of a hybrid mojave and diamondback as well as a hybrid tiger and speckled rattler….another characteristic you can see the scaling between the eyes when in person and that tear drop line by the eye that lacks in a bull…but do not be mistaken…would have to see in person because it is characteristic for a pissed off bull snake to mimic a rattler and puff the head out and rattle noise like a diamondback…

    https://www.instagram.com/p/BJUDBsQjlGb/

    • Joy A. Collura says

      also on hybrids-

      I have seen bull snake body but viper head and fangs and also the other way around…rattler body but no fangs and bull snake head…that is a true real life hybrid…i also see bull snake head with odd structure with fangs and unidentifiable body of both bull and diamondback…so would be interested to know what was on his shoulder…best known only in person

      • Charlie says

        Another casualty–Richard Fletcher, born Dec. 25, 1946 passed. Three years younger than myself. This is after the Tenderfoot Fire and Yarnell Fire. Now we have 111 deaths since the fire. I suspect the dying will pick up again now that we got a double dose of the retardant. We will continue to keep track of deaths involving the agent orange retardant. What new secret ingredients did they add to this shit? Since it is secret they can play with the chemicals you have to breath ==So you trust these fellows? Watch what they redact by the pages, and watch how Joy is denied public information about the fire. The account there was garbage designed to protect the cronies. So why do I have reason to believe them on other accounts–especially concerning agent orange retardant, its secret ingredients (does it include rat poison or DDT? Give me one good reason to hide chemicals we are subjected to? How do these Yahoos get away with hiding what they are subjecting human subject to? I for one do not like being used as a guinea pig. These people are not honest–they damn well know that it is a given that the ammonium nitrates and phosphates give off a lung killing ammonia gas. When you mix chemicals you then create new chemicals—ammonia is very reactive with other elements and compounds–so reactive in fact it will destroy your lungs and kill you if you get a concentrated whif of that shit. But we need to know what other chemicals are involved to know what compounds are formed from this slop dropped on us. This shit is so reactive it killed thousands of fish in drops accidentally made into rivers.

        So how many deaths out of 645, now down to 500 souls since the fire, do we need to have EPA or WHO involve in scrutinizing this agent orange chemical slop?

        Maybe since we were denied the truth of why the 19 are dead, we will also be denied a proper investigation of why 111 souls of Yarnell are dead after the 19. Pisses me off that this amount of people are dead, yet no government agency has responded to seeing what is going on here at Yarnell.

        Best we can do is to keep tabs on the people that are dying. Right now since the deaths of the 19 GMHS the ration of civilian deaths to wild land fire fighter deaths is 1:6. For every firefighter dead, six civilians have expired since the fire. With a kill ration like that where 1/6 of the population is dead in so short a time, it equates to the black death.

        To put it in perspective, if 1/6 of the population of the US were to die as has happened in Yarnell in this short time since the fire we would be looking at over 45 million deaths. That happens and some questions would be answered or heads would roll.

        • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

          The Associated Press
          Debate over fire retardant toxicity rages in West
          Published June 22, 2012 Associated Press
          http://www.foxnews.com/us/2012/06/22/debate-over-fire-retardant-toxicity-rages-in-west.html

          From that article…
          ———————————————————————–
          In 2002, a slurry bomber inadvertently dumped between 1,000 and 2,000 gallons of fire retardant on the Fall River about 25 miles south of Bend, Ore.

          The retardant IMMEDIATELY killed all of the river’s fish, an estimated 21,000 mainly juvenile brown trout, redband trout and mountain whitefish over a six-mile stretch.

          But the culprit in that case was sodium ferrocyanide, which became toxic to fish under certain environmental conditions and is longer used in fire retardant.

          “We found out the hard way there was a small amount of chemical in some of the products that did have this characteristic,” said Cecilia Johnson, fire chemicals technical specialist at the agency’s Missoula Technology and Development Center in Montana.
          ———————————————————————–

          The relevant QUOTE from one of US Forestry’s ‘chemicals specialist’ at the USFS Labs in Missoula…

          “We found out the HARD WAY there was a SMALL AMOUNT OF CHEMICAL in some of the products that did have this characteristic ( of KILLING living creatures ).”

          So what ELSE might be ‘remaining’ for US Forestry to “find out the HARD WAY”?

          That there might be… as yet… still ‘small amounts of chemical’ present in this shit that has NEVER been subject to any ‘testing’… because the companies are being ALLOWED to never REVEAL everything that’s involved due to ‘trade secret’ laws?… not even for the ONLY ‘Health Effects’ study US Forestry has ever done and only then because they were FORCED to do so by a Court-Order?

          By the way… with regards to that ‘bogus’ one-an-only Health -Effects study that US Forestry ever HAS done…

          Not only did the ‘report’ freely admit they NEVER tested ALL of the chemicals in the retardants for possible ‘Health Risks’ ( because even they were supposedly not allowed to KNOW about everything that is even IN the retardant )… the same ‘Health Study’ made absolutely NO attempt to study ‘Health Risk’ based on AGE.

          There was absolutely NO attempt to look at what the “Health Effects” might be for individuals who might ALREADY have compromised respiratory systems due to just ‘age’ or ‘existing respiratory ailments’… or BOTH.

          • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

            By the way… below is a LINK to that now-infamous 2007 ‘report’ that US Forestry was FORCED to come up by a COURT ORDER when it was discovered they had been applying these modern ‘fire retardants’ all over the place for YEARS… but had NEVER even bothered to do any kind of ‘Environment Impact’ study on the shit.

            NOTE: This is basically just US Forestry’s SUMMARY of the underlying Court-ordered ‘Health Effects’ study which was actually conducted by a company that ( inexplicably ) US Forestry itself was ‘allowed’ to select and to contract with. That was a well-known government contract firm known as ‘Labat / Anderson’.

            Aerial Application of Fire Retardant
            Environmental Assessment
            United States Department of Agriculture
            Forest Service – Fire and Aviation Management
            Washington, DC
            October 2007

            http://www.fs.fed.us/fire/retardant/fire_retardant_ea_with_errata_.pdf

            NOTE: This report acknowledges what US Forestry says they had to learn the HARD WAY ( as in… AFTER thousands of FISH had died ) that the ‘corrosion inhibitor’ sodium ferrocyanide that was being used just to save wear and tear on the tanks and hoses was, in fact, KILLING fish. The report says the use of ‘sodium ferrocyanide’ was ‘discontinued’… but they also say it was simply ‘replaced’ with OTHER ‘corrosion inhibiting’ chemicals.

            But they won’t say WHAT ‘sodium ferrocyanide’ was replaced WITH.

            ( You would have thought that the word ‘cyanide’ would have given someone a CLUE… before having to learn the HARD WAY about that ‘ingredient’. So who knows WHAT they have ‘replaced’ it with just in order to try and save wear-and-tear on the tanks and hoses ).

            Here is just one excerpt from this court-ordered study ‘summary’ document…
            ——————————————————-
            Aerial fire retardant is used to reduce the wildfire intensity and rate of spread. For safety reasons the general public is excluded from the vicinity of wildfire suppression activities. Consequently, the public is not normally exposed to aerial application of fire retardant.
            ——————————————————-

            So no big whoop, right?

            According to US Forestry… the PUBLIC is not NORMALLY exposed to ‘retardant’… so what’s the big deal?

            The UNDERLYING study was actually done under government contract with a laboratory known as ‘Labat / Anderson’.

            https://www.fws.gov/southwest/es/Documents/R2ES/Final%20BO-USFS_Use_of_Fire_Retardants_pt1.pdf

            Here is just one ‘passage’ from THEIR actual ‘Retardant Health Effects’ Study…
            ————————————————————-
            There are 21 chemical ingredients in products on the Qualified Products List that meet one or more of the criteria of carcinogenicity, low LD50s, or reportability to EPA and/or OSHA.

            Many of these chemicals are contained in more than one formulation.

            No toxicity data were available for several individual ingredients. Therefore, risks from these ingredients were NOT evaluated.

            Cancer slope factors were unavailable for several chemicals that were identified as potential carcinogens. Therefore, cancer risks from these chemicals could NOT be quantified.

            NO toxicity information is available for guar gum, performance additives, clay, or coloring agents.

            These ingredients MAY have TOXIC potential.
            —————————————————————

            So even the US Forestry-contracted SCIENTISTS who did the actual STUDY for them freely admit there was a whole lotta shit in the retardants that meet the criteria for ‘cancer causing agents’… and that there was also a whole lotta shit in the retardants for which they had no DATA at all… but they went ahead with the ‘Heath Effects Study’ they were getting PAID to do ( with taxpayer dollars ) anyway and concluded there were “No long-term Health Risks” to HEALTHY mammals.

            Even with what they DID know… they still made absolutely NO attempt to study the ‘Health Effects’ based on AGE or on people with already-compromised respiratory systems.

          • Charlie says

            Thanks for the link on the fish slaughter in Fall River-WTKTT. Ferrocyanide is less toxic than cyanide. HCN, hydrogen cyanide needs only 200ppm concentration in air to kill a human within 10-50 minutes. Ten times that concentration (2000)ppm works to kill within a minute. So depending upon the concentration you will die breathing that shit in the air if you stay with it long enough.

            If you study this stuff, it was historically made by passing ammonia over glowing coal. The coal porvides the carbon. It must be known that a certain concentration of HCN is made by soup dumps on hot coals of a wild fire. The soup is laden with ammonia–and I would suspect that the potassium and sodium produce those deadly substances in amounts that are hazardous to health. When they add a ferrocyanide to the soup then concentrations must increase. Cyanide is a lung killer along with the ammonia–only cyanide if you get up to 200 ppm will kill within 10-60 minutes.

            Now we see why these things are trade secret ingredients. When the local fire department set their backburn, a huge retardant dump had to be called in –to save Yarnell on the north end–and maybe to try to keep the back burn fire from spreading more. The retardant did no good and you can see where the fire even burned back over the retardant, cooking up some deadly hydrogen cyanide and who knows what else in the chemical soup was created.

            One thing is certain, do not cook that ammonium phosphate, nitrate and chemical soup at home and breath the fumes. You will be joining the 111 Yarnellites and the 19–your death will be by suffocation if you get your concentration up to 200ppm and stay a while.

            Lung problems here have been the issue that Joy and I have both felt–and so have many of the people here after the fire. If you do not get enough oxygen to the heart, you have a heart attack and die–well maybe you live but then in a diminished capacity and with predictions that you won’t live long–in my case the cardiologist said I had 10% chance to make it a year. So not only that your life becomes miserable in certain capacity and you are tied to a drug if you do not take, you won’t last a month.

            This is big business, they know these facts and I am certain I can verify them when the Chemical Engineer visits. Maybe he has a low down on the secret shit as well.

            My Dad studied mining books on a daily basis. He was quite intelligent eventhough self taught. He once said it is not the tobacco that kills people as much as it is the arsenic and other chemicals sprayed on the crop that winds up in the lungs. Arsenic indeed is a cancer cause.

            I do know that some clays are used in the retardant. Many clays contain asbestos fibers. They also contain silicate particles, triolites that are known to cause respiratory problems, silicosis, etc.–and unless analyzed can have other elements as well.

            And WTKTT informs us of a bogus study that did not include people with age or existing respiratory, heart or cancer problems.

            Remember, Zack Ashoor, the young man that hiked the area soon after the fire had asthma and he died not long after the hikes to the area. He was 29, the same age as my son–not scientific, but I believe that the hike compromised him enough to put him over the edge. I say this because both Joy and I suffered shortness of breath after hiking through that shit.

            Had we known what we know now, we certainly would have avoided that area for some months. But what do you do when you live here and see that they have no qualms to pollute the area, even right next to homes?

            Maybe the deaths we are having of the magnitude we see will bring in some big guns and a proper study of this terrible mixture I know is a poison agent orange retardant.

            • Charlie says

              If we prove out that the 111 people of Yarnell died by direct and indirect effects of the fire (there was a suicide and sadness deaths as well) added to the chemical slop poured on our land, then I would like a memorial especially for these people.

              1800 acres should be set aside but we won’t restrict it or need a fire chief to give you permission to go there. We will want a true story of the criminal soup that killed them due to their age or lung and heart disability. Also we would want a mention of the 19 and a true story of what killed them. Maybe we could take the money awarded like the widows got money and donate it to a better training and hiring practice for wild land fire fighters and bosses, and include better equipment. Use the ground to train wild land fire fighters and maybe set it aside adjoining the 19 and their 320 acres. There is plenty of state land to do that with and plenty manzanita and boulders to train in up there. Oh I was figuring 16.5 acres per death and rounded off a bit–That would be about three sections of land to honor the 111.

              • Charlie says

                Twenty one chemicals, many with carcinogenic properties–What the fuck and the Forest Service says it is safe. Heat is a great changer of chemicals. Once that ammonia hits the hot wild fire the resulting chemicals produced are now changed to new ones.
                We know at least some cyanide is made–a very deadly substance. “The killing of murders was done with sodium or potassium cyanide dropped into acid or acidic water produces the deadly cyanide gas that chokes the victim to death.
                Now we have 21 chemicals in a soup and a fire to heat them–Wonder if their study included the fire, And if you use mammals exempting the human mammal, then what does this really mean?

                What would be nice is for us to take all these yahoos that want to dump it next our homes and have them breath this shit over a heated stove for a couple days in a closed chamber. If they come out OK after 20 years with no cancer, no heart attacks, etc. then let the asses dump it on humans that are convinced it by then a good thing, as they have been doing without any study and lying to the public of its safety.

                • Charlie says

                  Things very dangerous in wild land fire figting:

                  1. Bosses that don’t give a fuck about your ass–are willing to risk it and put you in deadly situations by strictly obeying orders from those above them.

                  2. A partner that thinks the safety rules are Hill Billy–

                  3.Retardant–has 21 chemicals and ammonia gas–some are carcinogenic, cyanide gas and other compounds created along with lung killing ammonia. (You can loose a lung and you can still function) Don’t believe your FS. They have elements willing to redact, suppress and award people that have fucked up.

                  4. Flimsy fire blankets that melt in manzanita. False sense of security–don’t use them when you have a huge boulder pile nearby to get into. Use only in the boulder pile if you have one.

                  5. Believing that God is going to hang around and save your ass when you are breaking all sensible rules of safety.

                  6. Allowing yourself to believe there are such things as Greek Gods of Fire Fighting. A myth, when you see that a Greek God of Fire Fighting has a bad history of risk taking you better find another Greek God, then use your brain,

                  Dropping off into a box canyon filled with manzanita and a raging fire just around the bend and a 45 mph wind predicted to change the direction at any time.

                  This is a miner’s idea of some things concerning staying alive in a wild land fire. If you are camped out and near a lightening strike and physically able to take your shovel there immediately–especially if it is in the boulders–get up there quick and contain the damn thing. You will be a hero and save lives and millions in tax dollars and even save your camp as well.

                  • Bob Powers says

                    WTKTT
                    Many of us Fire Fighters have been in that position of our life time in fire. NO SIDE AFFECTS.
                    I was hit wit Retardant on numerous occasions working line where retardant was dropped pre and post as well. NO SIDE AFFECTS. nor to any one I personally know.

                    I also supervised a mix plant and loading ramp for 8 years on the Sawtooth NF. Twin Falls Tanker Base.
                    My assistant ran it for 10 years and had no side affects from 1974 to 1984.

                    I do not know what else to tell you.
                    Toxic to Humans seems to be a far stretch to me.
                    Ya there is a strong smell of ammonia. Toxic ??????

                    • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

                      Yes… you have pointed all that out before… and once again I would say “Good for you” ( and the limited subset of people you know with similar exposure ).

                      But maybe you ( and they ) are just “lucky”.

                      I gather you ( and the ones you mention ) were all in pretty damn good shape when all this ‘exposure’ was taking place. No already-compromised respiratory systems, no severe allergies, no bad asthma, etc. etc.

                      The point here is that even in addition to there NEVER having been a FULL study of ‘Health Effects’ with regards to ALL of the ‘ingredients’ being used in this crap… even the bogus study that WAS done admits it paid NO attention to either AGE or pre-existing health conditions.

                      What has happened in Yarnell following that disaster is unusual… and borders on ‘another disaster’ all unto itself… and it deserves to be studied.

                      This sort of thing is EXACTLY what the CDC’s NIFC investigation unit is all about… and I’m surprised they haven’t picked up on this yet and launched their own ‘investigation’.

                      Maybe it’s not even the ‘retardant’. Maybe it’s something else ( which deserves to be understood ).

                      But Sonny’s math is correct.

                      If you apply the DEATH RATE in the Yarnell area following the fire to the full general population of the USA… you are talking about 41 MILLION DEATHS in a specific area… and just since Yarnell.

                      Let me put that into perspective for you.

                      The most populated state in the entire USA is California… but even California only has about 38 million people.

                      So imagine if… in just a 3 year period… the ENTIRE State of California was ‘wiped out’ for some mysterious reason(s).

                      THAT really is the statistical magnitude of what is ( and has been ) happening in Yarnell.

                    • Bob Powers says

                      Sorry to say knowing Arizona and all the older people that go there with different ailments there is a higher death in some of those retirement areas. People with Congestive Hart Failure go to low humidity areas. Many go that have cancer and others that are over 70. Lung and breathing problems go to Arizona.
                      It is what it is.
                      I do not know if there is a static in Sun City Arizona but that is a retirement place that has a high death rate as well

                    • Bob Powers says

                      WTKTT
                      What do you mean the limited Subset of People I know????
                      I am talking Thousands of FF’s
                      and Hundreds I know.
                      If that is limited I’ll stand corrected.
                      The way you say the people in Yarnell were Dying would indicate that many FF would be doing the same after a large exposure that is not happening.as far as Age there are many in their 50s that are and have been exposed to Retardant.
                      We were exposed to the earlier retardants that had the chemicals that were killing fish.
                      Again no side affects.

                      I am not just talking about my self I am talking about many FF I know who are retired and many who are still working.

                      No there is no effect from retardant two Retired or working Wild Land FF. Related to Lung Damage or other Chemical afflictions.

  19. WantsToKnowTheTruth says

    **
    ** TWISP FIRE TRAGEDY – ONE YEAR ANNIVERSARY

    Twisp River Fire: August 19, 2015

    Deceased: US Forestry employee Tom Zbyszewski, 20
    Deceased: US Forestry employee Andrew Zajac, 26
    Deceased: US Forestry employee Richard Wheeler, 31

    Severely Injured: US Forestry employee Daniel Lyon, 26

    No more poignant way to mark the first ‘anniversary’ of the Twisp Fire tragedy than to pause for a moment and listen to the WORDS coming from the lone Survivor of that tragedy AND some of the ‘family members’…

    ** Jennifer Zbyszewski, Lifelong US Forestry employee and the
    ** MOTHER of deceased US Forestry employee Tom Zbyszewski.

    KOMO NEWS
    Article Title: Twisp parents reflect one year after fire
    http://komonews.com/news/local/i-just-want-to-remember-how-much-i-loved-him
    —————————————————————————–
    TWISP, Wash. — There’s no official marker. No sign, no banner, no post in the ground.

    Instead, it requires wandering off of Highway 20, driving 10 minutes west, and turning down a winding dirt road. The path bends and curves as it snakes its way up into the hillside. There are signs telling people to turn away.

    Jennifer Zbyszewski understands that.

    One of the firefighters ( killed on Woods Canyon Road ) was her only son, Tom.

    “He grew up in the Forest Service. I worked there his whole life,” Jennifer said.

    “It’s not comforting for me to go there. It’s heart-wrenching, because it looks like a simple situation that shouldn’t have happened,” Zbyszewski says.
    ——————————————————————————-

    Again ( and worth repeating )… Jennifer Zbyszewski’s comment about her son losing his life after being sent up a residential road to protect an EMPTY house… ABOVE an uncontained wildfire…

    “It looks like a simple situation that SHOULDN’T HAVE HAPPENED.”

    More quote(s)…

    ** Daniel Lyon – Former US Forestry employee and sole survivor
    ** from the crew of ‘Engine 642’.

    NOTE: The following ‘quotes’ are from THREE different ‘interviews’ that sole survivor Daniel Lyon has granted on the occasion of this first anniversary of the Twisp tragedy.

    1. The Seattle Times – Article: “Out of the Flames of Hell”.
    2. The Seattle Met – Article: “Every Other Day, I Was a Ball of Tears”.
    3. K5-NBC – Article: “Injured firegither talks opens up about recovery”.

    ——————————————————————————-
    As the anniversary of the Twisp fire approaches, Daniel Lyon says he’d like fire agencies, homeowners and the general public to think twice about sending fire crews into danger to protect rural homes, a view shared by Tom Zbyszewski’s parents.

    “Looking back on it, if it were up to me, most of these wildfires, they need to let them burn if lives are at risk,”

    Lyon says. “Once you lose a firefighter, they ain’t coming back.”

    The hardest thing to know how to respond to is when people say, “There’s a reason you’re here.”

    There’s a reason my buddies should be here too.

    I still get to go through life and enjoy thngs. Little things.
    And… uh… ya know… I have three buddies who don’t get to do that anymore.

    People can’t see at night the emotional stuff you go through.

    You have a lot of mental flashbacks about what happened… and you constantly have to relive the story.

    If we can hopefully save a life from this kind of loss… then that’s really the only good thing that can come out of it at this point.

    Daniel Lyon
    ————————————————————————————–

    “Daniel Lyon says he’d like fire AGENCIES, homeowners and the general public to THINK TWICE about sending fire crews into danger to PROTECT RURAL HOMES…”

    “…a view SHARED by Tom Zbyszewski’s PARENTS.”

    “If we can hopefully SAVE A LIFE from THIS kind of loss… then that’s really the only good thing that can come out of it at this point.”

    • Charlie says

      Well if they set aside 320 acres for 19 wild land fire fighters that sets a precedent. That means 16.84 acres of land needs to be set aside as a memorial for every wild land fire fighter that dies from this point forward. In the case of two deaths that translates to 34 acres of that California turf where they died needs to be restricted–only the widows can tromp there and only the local Fire Chief can determine who else beside the widows can visit and pay homage. Also they need to set aside a nice parking lot and make a trail so people can view the death site from a distance.

      If you think this is absurd then you dishonor those men that do not get equal treatment for their heroic efforts at fighting fire.

      Common sense goes a long ways and in America we want to treat all in fairness. No matter if you fuck up as a fire man, you kill your crew, you still ought to get accolades, get land set aside, and be able to fly in a jet air plane.

      Is there something I am missing? Sorry, but if you do otherwise, then you cheat some.

      • Charlie says

        No the above comment was not in jest but in all seriousness. The men that have died in the Twisp fire deserve every bit as much attention as the 19 here. To deny them a 34 acre restricted memorial site, a fence, a parking lot and trail, and a commander over that area is a dishonor to those men. If this happens, there will be a lot less wild land fire fighter deaths because people might start loosing areas they cherish. For example Joy lost an area she used to hike a lot in and loved to visit. When people get burned, they will start to demand the real reasons these men are being killed.

        • Charlie says

          This was a tragedy that once exposed properly and depicted in the media and on film in truth will change much to save future wild land fire fighter lives. I am certain many can not handle the truth that were directly involved in the tragedy. I am talking of the supposed heroes that managed this fire and caused those deaths on the main. Some of their family, friends and supporters want to detract from the facts, and it is understandable to some degree, I suppose. But a fuck up is a fuck up, and what we got at Yarnell concerning the lightening stike that was allowed to become a situation that the management lost control of became a historical fuck up managed by none other than Eric Marsh directing Jesse Steed and both being at the mercy of the structure protectors above them. Forget the talk of how is your comfort level shit. Words spoken by your commander in a strictly obey orders (well understood meaning) or else can be softly said, but to do otherwise in this type system can cost your job. When we see double dipping Willis and Marsh about to follow suit, good lord, why would you question a man who knows his shit, and got there because he knew how to take orders and smooth the flow. Rocking the boat would get you rocked in that type system. The old saying of who you know and not what you know definitely applied here, still does. To let out the truth would upset the tax payer (who is he, the cronies are the experts). Definitely withhold information, make it costly and hard to even get the redacted and I mean essential information redacted pages. But even with so many redactions, people (especially those like WTKTT, Gary Olsen, Dr. Ted Putnam, JD and etc. of high quality intelligence and experience in investigations) filter out the bull shit and come to the facts. You just can not get by these fellows that have been there and are not green behind the ears. If you think you can cover up and make swine into sweet wine then you have your finger up your ass and your brain is fogged. But this is good and it is the good god we like to see–the one willing to speak the truth and his minions of truth.

          It fattened some pocket books, and cronies handed out awards like candy and lies bolstered up a failed effort. Swine became sweet wine for a time. But life and truth are as they are–both unforgiving if you indeed want to continue in the lie.

          The movie makers turn from the truth of the real situation–but like many of the books already written they do reveal personal lives. But why not get a truthful and valuable title of meaning like–How to Kill 17 Young Men if You Are a Wild Land Fire Fighting Boss or something that actually happened at Yarnell and will actually bring people to understand how it happened and what might be done to change this type tragedy.

          This was a horror story–something I see akin to the doctor that killed an estimated 160 patients, but hospitals kept giving him accolades and good recommendations despite their knowing he was either killing his patients or was indeed a stupid physician. They did not want him exposed and tainting their hospital reputation. People do not go to hospitals that have doctors that kill unless they are unaware of those incidents. Only other doctors knew and they kept their mouths shut. Except we see here that Provencio, RTS, Dr. Ted Putnam and plenty others in this wild land fire fighting profession did not keep their mouths shut, but those in higher positions have labored–like the hospital elite–to keep any true thing this might taint their reputations to be redacted, hidden, or avoided so that the system flows with all glory possible.

          It is an old English slave ship. Chains and shackles and a beating if you protest. But some where along the line those you shackled and chained come back at you with the truth. You fucked them over, now we need to know why and what remedy the slave traders can do to correct their evil.

          If you make a psychological study of allowing most individuals to gain power, you will see that it always go awry. When a simple study of allowing Berkeley college students to become either a prisoner or a guard, the abuses of the guards became so violent in less than two weeks that this experiment had to be stopped. It reminds me of the ability of the GMHS bosses to become labeled as Greek Gods able to make you do 20 or 30 like my Basic Army training that I understand how mind controlled these men had become. In civilian life to be ordered that way would indeed be abusive. In the military I do understand war and the need to be at another’s absolute command. But at Yarnell it needlessly cost those 17 lives.

          • Charlie says

            Especial thanks to WTKTT, Gary Olson, Ted Putnam–

            WTKTT makes all us of Irish decent proud–has something few have in analytical abilities.

            Gary Olson is old, wise and fearless. Traits and values the cowards that covered the truth and continue to do will never have.

            Ted Putnam loves life and has dedicated himself to helping keep alive future wild land fire fighters by exposing the truth. Anyone that jumps out of an airplane into a blazing fire and stays alive after 15 years of doing it is beyond a doctorate–not one to tangle with–he has knowledge and understanding that will direct people beyond even staying alive in a fire situation.

            Sonny Gilligan–a fellow that appreciates all the good men above and all those that work so hard at getting to what can save young lives.

      • Woodsman says

        Charlie,

        It’s ironic that GM required approximately 16.5 ac of a safety zone to survive the radiant heat according to the research. Of course this does not take into consideration of numerous other factors in determining safety zone size, not the least of which is convective heat. Truth is nobody knows how big is big enough but your 16.84 number in this case is interesting. And no, I don’t believe anyone ran the numbers in the land donation scheme.

        Woodsman

        • Charlie says

          I had not though of it that way Woodsman. That boulder pile near them was beyond the 16.5 acres and if you have a chance to go there to the site you will see that they could have made it there in less time than the cutting out and piling brush they did. I guess the Greek Gods missed that one and there were a number of places you could get down below and under huge boulders.

          Oddly when I hiked to a place we are told Donut stood and decided to go to the grader site, he was in an area that had a few boulders about. But if I was at the correct place, then right below it was a deep depression below the boulders –about six feet down where one to five men could have dropped down and let the fire go over or around. Pulaski saved his men by keeping them in a mine tunnel, where I believe if below the fire would be even safer since heat rises or lies level to the ground.

          I see the system as a mind fuck when men are willing to do what they know was wrong because their bosses are Greek Gods. True the men were very young, but were relying on the experience of their risk taking bosses to keep them alive, I believe without a good knowledge of what not to do and what are absolute no-nos in wild land fire fighting such as dropping off into that entanglement of manzanita with no escape and even though Marsh and Steed had weather warnings of extreme wind changes coming their way. I did not need those weather warnings–you could see the storms to the NE and knew they would be from the east headed toward Yarnell. Donut taught us the disdain for safety rules–he did not need to know them–he was smart enough to barely escape before without them and now had he not lucked out with Frisby showing up, he too would be a casualty.

          It goes to show there `are plenty of errors and careless actions that need to be exposed and addressed. Plenty of guys like yourself with long time wild land fire fighting experience know this. Yet I am certain there are many crews that are run on with the common sense rules in mind–Provencio speaks of how he saw that Marsh was a risk taker with his men and doing things against all good common sense. Perhaps Marsh had hoped to show up other crews by those risks, but he certainly failed as a wild land fire fighter superintendent by killing all his crew, and then himself as well.

          Whether or not they make a hero out of the bosses, I really do not care. But tell the truth at the same time. I personally don’t know how you can be a hero by killing your crew by doing everything at risk and against all fire fighting safety rules. Some say the rules are just suggestions, then if so all common sense was broken and undue risk taken. That is what Dr. Ted Putnam wants and I think every wild land fire fighting boss worth his beans.

          I would think most of the wild land fire fighters think structure protection is taboo for the wild land fire fighter, Mixing them is dangerous. Let the structure protectors do their job–they have the equipment, tanks, knowledge, etc. to do that job and it is quite different to what we see wild land fire fighters doing. I think a citizen is just about equipped as much or better with a garden hose to do that than a wild land fire fighter. That is especially true in 45mph winds with thick manzanita laying down flames out 50-100ft and embers flying for hundreds of yards. One can only say what were these bosses thinking to risk men in a no win situation like that?

    • Charlie says

      Thanks for sharing this from Daniel Lyon WTKTT. Joy showed me a photo of my son’s tombstone. He has a diver in full helmet and suit on the life line with bubbles coming off the diving suit carved on the tombstone. He, like the wild land fire fighter entered a profession that was dangerous and depended upon those above and around him to make sure he returned from his missions alive. Their diligence kept him alive, that is until one day the bosses that managed things failed. Their negligence at first cost him to loss an arm as he was torn apart in a wench. Then in time he was killed by a negligent change in medication, but even at that time of his death he was a straight A chemical engineering student. Ironically I will soon be talking to a chemical engineer-.

      When I see the many young lives that were wasted at Yarnell, I know the value of those lives lost and their heroism. David Lyon speaks well about how important it is to do strict attention and give utmost importance to protecting those young lives. When leadership does not give due diligence to that mandate, then the system that allowed those supervisors to direct those young lives becomes a threat and needs to be cured.

  20. WantsToKnowTheTruth says

    **
    ** JAEWNIIP
    **
    ** Just ANOTHER Entrapment With No Investigation In Progress

    And this one was NASTY.

    – Took place just recently, on July 23, 2016, on the ‘Sand’ fire.

    – 14 ( FOURTEEN ) Firefighters had to ‘shelter in place’ to survive, apparently inside a structure at the Bear Divide Ranger Station.

    – Most of the other buildings at the Station then ( apparently ) burned down.

    – Forest Service vehicle also destroyed in the ‘burnover’.

    And the ONLY reason there is anything appearing at SAFENET is because whoever filed
    the SAFENET has come to realize this incident has NOT been properly reported, or is
    even being investigated ( yet ).

    From the END of the SAFENET report…

    “As of this date I believe there has been no CA-1’s, CA-2’s or Exposure forms filed, nor has any of the employees been medically checked out for the exposure to Hazard Material smoke and particulates.

    In Summary it is common knowledge what took place at Bear Divide Fire Station, with five residences burning down and a Forest Service vehicle destroyed and a shelter in place Burn Over Entrapment by 14 Firefighters that it warrants an immediate investigation so that the lessons learned from this can be shared with all fire personnel to avoid future entrapments.”

    Here is the actual SAFENET just recently filed…

    http://safenet.nifc.gov/view_safenet.cfm?id=36548&__ncforminfo=02BhvxBv2ef5tRUuXcU-FiE_w-GX5weUcjI2iqSjkDOcuTsa3MXsTHLA5XbljgEYAT2ZYGRWqHtOuVsLn37-BtetkPy5id3T

    The contents of this SAFENET report…
    ————————————————————————
    SAFENET – Wildland Fire Safety & Health Reporting Network

    SAFENET Event Information

    SAFENET ID: 20160810-0002 – [Corrective Actions]
    Event Start Date: 07/23/2016 1525
    Event Stop Date: 07/23/2016 1725
    Incident Name: Sand
    Fire Number: ANF-3164
    State: California
    Jurisdiction: USFS
    Local Unit: Angeles National Forest Los Angeles River Ranger District
    Incident Type: Wildland
    Incident Activity: Line
    Stage of Incident: Extended Attack
    Position Title: ( No entry )
    Task: Structure Protection
    Management Level: 3
    Resources Involved: ( No entry )

    Contributing Factors

    – Contributing Factors: Fire Behavior, Communications, Human Factors
    – Human Factors: Decision Making, Leadership, Situational Awareness
    – Other Factors: ( No entry )

    Narrative

    Reporting Individual: Describe in detail what happened including the concern or potential issue, the environment (weather, terrain, fire behavior, etc), and the resulting health issue.

    On July 23, 2016 at approximately at 15:15 Hours The Sand Fire Angeles National Forest Incident Number ANF-3164, an “in-alignment fire run Burned Over” The Bear Divide fire station, entrapping 14 Firefighters.

    The Firefighters led by Structure Group had to make decisive decision during flight or fight and made the correct decision by giving the command through leader’s intent for all 14 Firefighters to “Shelter In Place”!

    Because of the situation and fast moving fire, they only had seconds to enter the Bear Divide Hotshot Quarters. Firefighters had to stay sheltered in place for undetermined about of time do to the intense fire behavior, heat and Hazardous Smoke from 5 residents that caught fire. A Forest Service recreation vehicle was also on fire. Adding to the exposure to Hazardous Material Smoke to all 14 firefighters.

    Once the fire crossed Little Tujunga canyon road from the east and was now posing a threat to the station, a firing operation commenced by that time it was to late and over the radio the words “Run Run Run” all 14 firefighters made it into the Bear Divide Hotshot quarters.

    As of this date I believe there has been no CA-1’s, CA-2’s or Exposure forms filed, nor has any of the employees been medically checked out for the exposure to Hazard Material smoke and particulates.

    After reviewing Chapter 18 of the Interagency Standards Fire and Aviation Operations Guide Reviews and Investigations, Wildland Fire Incident and Accident Types and Definitions situation can easily be defined and falls into the category of Near Miss Entrapment “Burn Over”, which would require Washington Office notification.

    Immediate Action Taken

    Reporting Individual : please describe actions you took to correct or mitigate the unsafe/unhealthful event.

    In Summary it is common knowledge what took place at Bear Divide Fire Station, with five residences burning down and a Forest Service vehicle destroyed and a shelter in place Burn Over Entrapment by 14 Firefighters that it warrants an immediate investigation so that the lessons learned from this can be shared with all fire personnel to avoid future entrapments.

    Corrective Actions
    20160810-0002-CA001
    ————————————————————————

    • Charlie says

      And a little about the Yarnell entrapment and corrections there of. Joy did inform me that 90 deaths since the fire is not correct. The number has increased to 110. Twenty more than I thought. One hundred ten is almost exactly 1/6 of the population. In percentages that is rounded off to 17% of our population dead after the fire. If 17% of America were decimated since the fire we would have some raised eyebrows–especially if no

      EPA, WHO, or other government agencies did not look into the situation. But if the government agencies did not look closely at 19 deaths why would 110 deaths mean anything considering these are civilian deaths–non hero types–you know mostly elderly who do not seem to count highly on the roster.

      So, with the Yarnell Fire we got huge tanker loads in jumbo jets dropped on us to the tune of over 230,000 gallons. Now we have the Tenderfoot Fire that again recently dumped more hundreds of thousands of gallons to the East side of Yarnell and again within a few feet of those residences. Before they were dumped to the west side and north sides–this time all along the East of Yarnell and Glen Isla. This is a great experiment of the health effects, especially on the elderly with already compromised health. We now have the town well surrounded with unknown chemical soup never term evaluated for health effects, so maybe we can see how many new victims will fall to this chemical soup called argent orange retardant.

      — I think the same Jumbo Jet was used for a dumper, maybe even the same pilot and chemical release big business (millions involved here). I don’t know if the same secret ingredients in the lung killing ammonium nitrates and phosphates were there since they are unknown and can range from 8-16% trade secret. Maybe even more if the fellows that mix the deadly soup slip up on their mix. Trade secrets when this shit is dumped near humans? Unconscionable I say–God forbid you dump one barrel of chemical shit, even diesel fuel waste and EPA finds out and good reason. Human health and safety are foremost–at least on a small scale dump.

      Sad thing this killer shit was dumped to stop the back burn started by the local fire department. They supposedly saved the town even though the fire was completely over the mountain and winds to the east–no weather change in site and winds did as predicted, After all the weather was clear all the time of the fire. Kuykendahl and his haunting words–“Common Sense goes a long ways”, very appropriate in the fire fighting world. But we will look the other way–these were structure protectors, not wild land fire fighters by profession.

      WTKTT knows the amount dumped during the Tenderfoot Fire and I hope he does post it. Considering that 16% of 236,000 gallons is 37,760 gallons of unknown chemicals beyond the ammonium nitrates and phoshpates, good lord that is equal to 686 and a half 55 gallon drums of this unknown shit in that Yarnell dump in our back yards just during the Yarnell debacle. I suspect that you can double that now with the Tenderfoot Fire, so that we have 1372 drums of that chemical surrounding our abodes. I hope your kids are not playing in it and be sure not to put any in your fish bowl or drink or garden with the run off waters–fish die immediately from its effects–supposedly the long term effects on humans are known. They claim to know the short term effects even though no scientific studies to date have been made.

      Kind of reminds me, if you are a spelunker or like to investigate mine holes–always take a canary or your pet parakeet along. If that fellow keels over dead, he is giving you five minutes or so to get to fresher air. Maybe we need to carry a gold fish bowl around Yarnell. That five minutes or so goes to no minutes if it is concentrated radon–Some remember when we used to put our heads between our legs as kids when practicing for a nuke attack in the 50’s and 60’s. Only reason to do that is to kiss your ass good bye. But in the case of all chemicals and uranium low or high grade, the effects are time bombs on your health.

      I am not kidding about this, it all happened. Not only did we get these chemicals called in to decorate our neighborhoods, we were declared a war zone again and the back burn even burned out the electrical system for a number of days–enough to drive people again to shelters and spoil their food while they were gone. My sis, when it happened the lights went out in Mesa for some time was in Phoenix. Her large freezer of frozen meat and other foods had rotted so badly that even after cleaning it, the smell remained so that she had to replace the freezer as well.

      I certainly think this thing should have a very close investigation, not only in the 19 deaths but also in the 110 non hero deaths since the Yarnell Fire some years ago. This chemical soup is dangerous as most chemicals are. I know, some of these fire men will say, Oh shit, the Forest Service and these companies making billions off these retardant dumps will tell you this orange chemical soup is not dangerous. Maybe Gary will rethink it since he now knows he has COPD–on his recent post. He ain’t no (double negatives and slang OK by the Irish if you get the point) crybaby but damn sure deserves compensation for that malady as much as any mesothelioma patient does–and maybe some of the 110 Yarnellites do as well.

      I mention Glen Isla and Yarnell–the combined census was 645 before the fire but many left and now also reduce that number by 110–likely a few more by the time I visit with a chemical engineer to see what his thoughts are on this soup.

      Oh, Joy has given almost $60 to the local Yarnell Fire Department to get the FOIA. Her inquiry as to why she still does not have it is because the chief is on vacation. We did see his pretty HumVee among many other official trucks down at the memorial parking spot the tax payer paid $678,000 for. Maybe he is back and she will get the info she is seeking.

      Sad that too many forget they are humbled by being public servants–they must answer the tax payer questions–after all their pay checks are made by the sweat off the backs and works of the citizen. An accounting for 19 lives, 110 local lives, and millions of wasted dollars tax money due to error and negligent actions must be made.

      • Charlie says

        That was a gross error on my part–since the ammonia soup is also a lung killing chemical with unknown term effects the actual number of 55 gallon drums of chemical dropped during the Yarnell fire would be 4, 291 drums of chemical soup. That is about 7 drums of chemical for each person before the fire. Well if that is not enough, add the Tenderfoot fire dump and you have at least 7 more drums for the already depleted population. But do not fear, these big businesses, their specialists and doctors on their payroll will be glad to assure you–as will your State Forest Service–you have no reason for concern.

        • Charlie says

          The title of this site is the Yarnell Hill Fire. Some will wonder why other fires since and before this are discussed. If you do not change your clothes it is a good idea to wash them. We are seeing the same old clothes, and there has been so much washing they have gotten some big holes. The Yarnell Fire was a huge hole exposing some nasty parts. It is time for coming clean with a new suit of clothes.

          • Charlie says

            El Cajon fire–Since I mined in a gold mine about seven miles east of Pine Valley, I was very close to El Cajon. Those mountains had the same manzanita growth we witnessed in the area–especially around that mine. If you go to the Doce fire area and pass on through the burned area for a mile or so you will again see what was burned away and trapped the GMHS crew. As a citizen, you will be amazed at the entanglement right off the road for a number of miles adjoining the Doce burn off that lies just beyond it on the Iron Springs Road leading from Prescott to Skull Valley. You will see a few ATV trails into that shit and you will know even though you are not a fire man, that if that ATV dies, God forbid a fire breaks out. That is the shit those men got trapped into and not even an ATV trail to try to out run a 45mph wind and said to be an 11mph fire advance. I can tell you that 11mph is a dumb estimate on an uphill run (they were going downhill toward the fire edge). With embers flying beyond you in that shit there would be no escape. Forget those flimsy fire blankets –put your head between your legs and kiss your ass goodbye time. If you go below the Doce fire you will see there isn’t even a nearby bare boulder SZ to run to in most of that terrain. What defies imagination if you bother to visit the area, is why anyone, much less a wild land fire fighter would get himself in a no escape, suicide situation, when you clearly see the deathly action to go there.

            But why we need to get past the hero cover up and come to the truth. Why keep sacrificing fire men, when the reasons these men are dead is already well known.

            Now we have movie men making up more hero worship. Sad indeed, but we have 110 elderly dead here after the fire, no mention there I am sure. So damn many errors, bad judgements, bad bosses that had lack of common sense in wild land fire fighting to protect those they bossed, and a huge waste of tax payer millions, yet we play the stupid game allowing this to go on as an accident or God thing. If your God had other things for these men to do so he killed these young souls then he is fucked up in the head. Get real and expose the poor management, the poorly advised and trained supervisors and the hiring of risk taking superintendents and others willing to risk lives for vacant structures.

            I was an acquaintance of Dave, Dolan Springs fire chief. I once asked him after noticing all the structures that burned around Dolan Springs that none were saved–I said why not? He explained that we are not trained to save structures but only to contain the burning structure so the fire does not spread. He said it is too dangerous to risk lives for a structure. That was a structure fire man talking–he was right–if it was a deal where he had to risk his men or his life to save a structure, forget it. But here at Yarnell we saw the risk and killing of 17 young men by so wild land fire fighters. I think Dave, though a structure specialist, would have been a Dr. Putnam, Gary Olsen, Provencio, RTS, Woodsman, Powers, Norb or any one of the many wild land fire fighter bosses I have met and said –sorry fellows, I won’t risk your life by entrapping you in an unimaginable risky situation just to save empty structure. Yet these men are debased for their opinions and right thinking when they should be the heroes in the movie exposing the many errors of judgement from the hiring practices to the stupidity of risking young wild land fire fighters for no good reason.

            Indeed you can be applauded for baking pies or making cookies for these men, but for hiding the truth and playing like the Yarnell death of 19 young wild land fire fighters in the prime of their life was an accident an that Marsh and Steed deserve Greek God status when they were a major part in killing their 17 subordinates, is a lie and will only lead to a continuation of practices that will continue to kill more innocent young souls.

            You that condone these practices and hide the truth pat yourselves on the back as though you did a great job at Yarnell, yet half the town burned, a full crew of hot shots died, the tax payer funded a multimillion dollar debacle and I see no shame at all for how this fire was managed and how the 19 died.

            Sometimes I see red when 3 local fire departments did not respond to a fire on 320 acres that had been sanctioned as an extreme fire danger–but instead allowed it to turn into a major wild land fire. That was not the climax of the debacle–19 deaths was and is a historic lesson in fire fighting that if the truth is told will save many, many lives and millions in tax money.

            The memorial thing is ridiculous as it is being played out. What would be the right action would to make that area a training ground where men could learn how not to fight wild land fires. Let people and future wild land fire fighters know how Marsh and Steed fucked up to kill those under them and how Donut would have succumbed except by good fortune to escape when he also was not savvy to safety and keeping alive in a wild land fire.

            Award does go to Blue Ridge wild land fire fighter that saved Donut’s ass. And whoever was setting back fires in the Shrine area were only following orders from headquarters whom certainly did not pay any attention to wind and weather information that should have saved Marsh and his crew.

            Hey, don’t get mad at me–these are facts of the way it was and is,
            and plenty of men of integrity agree to them. If you want to get in bed with lies it is at the peril of future wild land fire fighter lives. To loose one young life because people worry about their reputation bears a burden on you–not the people that want the truth brought to light.

      • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

        Reply to Charlie post on August 19, 2016 at 9:30 pm

        >> Charlie said…
        >>
        >> And a little about the Yarnell entrapment and corrections
        >> there of. Joy did inform me that 90 deaths since the fire
        >> is not correct. The number has increased to 110.
        >> Twenty more than I thought. One hundred ten is almost
        >> exactly 1/6 of the population. In percentages that is rounded
        >> off to 17% of our population dead after the fire.

        That’s incredible ( and most likely unprecedented ).

        SOMEONE really DOES need to look into all this.

        And you are ( and always have been ) absolutely RIGHT about the lack of any ‘comprehensive’ study on the effects to Human Health regarding the most common retardants.

        The ONLY ( supposedly ) real ‘scientific’ study that has ever been done was the one that US Forestry was ORDERED to do by a Judge.

        An environmental group filed a LAWSUIT against US Forestry some years ago when it discovered that US Forestry had NEVER done any kind of “Effects on Human Health” study for all the new generation of ‘retardants’ they had been willy-nilly dropping all over the landscape for YEARS.

        The JUDGE in that LAWSUIT then ORDERED US Forestry to do an “Effects on Human Health” study… but the JUDGE then also inexplicably allowed US Forestry to be the ones to chose WHO would do the study.

        They ( US Forestry ) chose a firm that was already closely connected with the US Government and the ‘tests’ were done in THEIR laboratories.

        When the final court-ordered ‘Effects on Human Health’ study came out of US Forestry.. the report itself stated flat-out that the ‘tests’ were done WITHOUT knowing what some of the ‘trademark secret ingredients’ were… and even for some of the known ingredients the ‘report’ admitted that no ‘cancer curves’ had EVER been done on even some of those KNOWN ingredients… and that THIS court-ordered study didn’t bother to do them, either.

        And the JUDGE in the original case ‘accepted’ all this as ‘valid testing’, and since the ‘results’ of this ‘report’ said that “No known harmful effects to mammals” was found… the lawsuit resolved and that was the end of that.

        So to this day… US Forestry ‘quotes’ that original court-ordered ‘report’ ( that didn’t even really test ALL of the ingredients ) when they say that modern aerial fire retardants have ‘no known adverse health effects for mammals’.

        But out of the other corner of their mouth… it is STILL part of the RULES of delivery for this ‘stuff’ to NEVER dump it anywhere NEAR any rivers or streams or water supplies and their own RULES also say it really should NEVER be dumped ON any structures or persons.

        So it seems even US Forestry knows to ‘doubt’ its OWN taxpayer-paid-for report.

        The REAL study remains to be performed… and I’m sure US Forestry will NEVER just do that on their own. It will take ANOTHER lawsuit and this time ( hopefully ) a new JUDGE who will not ‘accept’ a report that knowingly ‘excluded’ ingredients form testing as any kind of VALID ‘Health study’.

        >> Charlie also said…
        >>
        >> Sad thing this killer shit was dumped to stop the back burn
        >> started by the local fire department. They supposedly
        >> saved the town even though the fire was completely over
        >> the mountain and winds to the east–no weather change in
        >> site and winds did as predicted,

        That’s correct.

        The ‘retardant drops’ that were being done in the later afternoon on the ‘Tenderfoot’ fire up there on the north side of Yarnell were specifically designed to keep the manual-backburn that had already been started AWAY from structures ( and Highway 89 ) there on the NORTH side of town… since the firefighters had mis-calculated the actual wind direction when they STARTED those ‘manual ignitions’.

        The wind was not blowing UPSLOPE when they started those ignitions.
        It was blowing CROSS-SLOPE.

        That is why the McKinney workshop/garage burned to the ground as a result of those manual ignitions.

        The MEDIA spent the entire afternoon ( and evening ) filming and reporting on the ‘Tenderfoot Fire’ as if that fire near town was actually part of the original ‘Tenderfoot Fire’.

        It wasn’t.

        What they were ‘filming’ and ‘reporting’ on and what the firefighters were trying to CONTAIN for the rest of the afternoon ( and on into dark ) was the massive manual-ignitions that THEY had STARTED there on the east side of Yarnell.

        And in ALL of the photos and videos and ‘Air15’ Helicopter footage that exists… there is still NO SIGN of these ‘graded fire breaks’ that Yarnell Chief Ben Palm and then Incident Commander Alan Sinclair kept talking about.

        New York Times Correspondent Fernanda Santos showed up there herself in Yarnell that afternoon… and confirmed this is what Ben Palm was telling everyone… and Santos said Palm actually SHOWED her a MAP that had ‘thick red lines’ on it indicating where these ‘graded fire breaks’ were SUPPOSED to have been created with all that grant money that poured into the Yarnell Fire Department.

        That MAP which Fernanda Santos said ( in writing ) Chief Ben Palm showed her that very afternoon must still be in Chief Ben Palm’s possession.

        >> Charlie also said…
        >>
        >> WTKTT knows the amount dumped during the Tenderfoot Fire
        >> and I hope he does post it.

        Actually… I have NO IDEA how much ‘retardant’ was ‘dumped’ onto the Tenderfoot Fire. The only think I know is that if you watch all of the ‘Air15’ video footage… there were at least 4 full loads ‘dumped’ by VLATs and at least 3 other smaller ‘drops’ by a LAT ( two-engine Large Air Tanker ) that afternoon before ‘air operations’ ceased at dark.

        So while no EXACT number has been published… it certainly was a LOT of retardant being ‘concentrated’ on that northern part of Yarnell in order to keep the manual-ignitions headed off to the northeast and not ‘creeping’ back towards town.

        One would have to see the same sort of ‘Incident documents’ for the ‘Tenderfoot Fire’ that ended up being publicly released for the ‘Yarnell Fire’ to get an EXACT count of how much retardant was dropped where, and when.

        • Charlie says

          There were no graded fire breaks as you said WTKTT. However there were some dirt roads up toward the towers and along the poles that burned half way up the mountain. You could hardly call them fire breaks and the fire went gangbusters up that mountain paying no attention to those two track dirt roads.

          I figured you would have the info on the retardant drops–maybe Joy will come up with them in all the FOIA she has requested. Kind of like pulling teeth to get them and here you even get the deputy Sheriff called if you ask for them. But then it seems that Joy scares hell out a few just by her appearance on an issue. But more scary would be Dr. Ted Putnam if he showed up. He just is not known and stupidly denied even a hike to the area as was well respected Gary Olsen. I hope they put this shit in the movie just to get this thing in perspective.

          • Charlie says

            Here is a thought–If after killing your crew, you did your time for your negligence, would you not make a good adviser on how not to kill the next crew? It would like a criminal who had spent a long time in jail advising the younger ones how bad it is to fuck up that way and why the next group of supervisors ought to concern themselves more about the safety of their subordinates and less about their reputation as structure protectors.

        • Charlie says

          Joy is still working on getting the incident reports. I suspect redactions will be rampant.

          Joy predicted that Chief Ben Palm would not meet her as he had told his underlings to tell her. She was ten minutes early at the fire station, but I suppose he had other obligations that excused him from coming down to meet Joy and facilitate the FOIA reports Joy wants.

          It is amazing to me how much the media portrays the Tenderfoot Fire as saving Yarnell. The public eats up shit like that. So if a cop or a fire man says something it seems to be god writing on gold tablets. Well don’t always believe it. You might be looking for the golden tablets that old Joe Smith claimed he had. Moroni was a bad speller–worse than me. But I won’t hold it against him, my sis is Mormon. Joy is Nomron a backward mormon. Women that have many husbands are nomrons, mormons spelled in reverse.

          Religion is a soothing agent to fools that want to donate to fellows that do not like to do diligent and useful work. Old Jesus said sell your shit and go preach. Someone will give you food. But these modern day takers use religion to do what Jesus said–like to be seen for their dress and bull shit and lord it over the masses. On occasion I have had a number of drinks with Jesus. Many of the Mexican men like the name Jesus on their kids so you can get drunk with Jesus there just about anytime. I feel for the Mormon kids on bikes in tie and suit on hot days trying to do their good thing. A few of them wise up in older ages–but then if they get into the big times forget it. The enjoyment of being seen like they have a fucking pipe line to God ruins them. Hey, I am not picking on Mormons some with good morals but like all religions–fucked up==control issues You can fool some people but not all people.

          These control things is what kills people. Control issues killed the 19. This is serious business that needs to be addressed. But then, there are always willing fools to go die for a cause and if it is not structures then there are some that will even strap explosives around their body to kill themselves and others thinking it is a good thing. Those fellows claim good morals too–some even have plenty concubines. Again, you see how convinced humans become in the religious realm to do such shit–even to the point of thinking 70 virgins are awaiting them if they do so. Good god isn’t one or two virgins enough for these guys?

          A few do escape the Sharia bull shit–and you think this is not related to wild land fire fighting or underground mining? Well in the US at least, probably you do not find a hell of a lot of virgins–but who here is looking for virgins?

          • Charlie says

            Control issues–how about Waco the Whaco? People believe him–the government is very serious–they killed the whole bunch, even the kids there. These swat team boys like to practice on people like that. But then there was wrong by the whaco swat teams since it would have been no problem to either lock up Koresh or shoot him when he visited in town. But then in America you have the right to believe in any whaco you want to. It can get you killed if you are too simple, and even if not if you are near enough to that type action. I think some of the swatters killed their own accidentally in that screw up.

            The point is the babies gave away their minds to fools. And so they killed Jesus and according to historical records continued to kill followers. But the followers think they have it made by being a martyr. Let me tell you the gods that be don’t care for ignorant fools. So be very careful of your boss–there is no guarantee to get to 70 virgins or play a harp if you allow your boss to kill you. Your boss can be a miner, David Koresh, a wild land fire fighter superintendent. It will never be Sonny but Maybe old Buddha knew something on the side that could keep you alive.

            Advice to young wild land fire fighters–get hold of the old timers–RTS, Bob Powers, Gary Olsen, Ted Putnam–they are alive and kept their men alive because they knew something that your Yarnell bosses did not.

    • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

      Followup…

      The ‘destruction’ of ‘residences’ ( at least FIVE ) at this ‘Bear Divide Fire Station’ actually WAS ‘in the news’ a little over 2 weeks ago… but the SAFENET report filed ( see above ) is the first we are hearing of the close-call entrapment of up to 14 ( FOURTEEN ) firefighters forced to “shelter in place” at that same ‘Bear Divide Fire Station’.

      Here is Wildfire Today’s Bill Gabbert ‘reporting’ on that ‘Sand Fire’ destruction at that ‘Bear Divide Fire Station/Camp’ ( complete with some photos of the destruction )… but at NO TIME does writer Bill Gabbert ( or any of his article ‘commenters’ ) mention there was also an ‘entrapment’ situation involving 14 ( FOURTEEN ) firefighters…

      Wildfire Today
      Article Title: Sand fire destroys homes near fire station in the Angeles National Forest
      Published: July 27, 2016
      http://wildfiretoday.com/2016/07/27/sand-fire-destroys-fire-station-in-the-angeles-national-forest/

      From that ( very brief ) article…
      ———————————————————————————–
      PHOTO: Shows destruction at the ‘Bear Divide Fire Station’

      PHOTO CAPTION: “The remains of one of the Bear Divide Ranger Station buildings in the burned Angeles Forest.”

      Five homes that were a part of the Angeles National Forest’s Bear Divide Ranger Station were destroyed by the Sand fire, officials announced a press conference on Monday.

      The buildings were home to several firefighters, several of whom were fighting the Sand fire, The L.A. Times reported.

      Read more about the Sand fire here. ( clickable link ).

      ( This photo of the Bear Divide Ranger Station was shared with us by a reader. Date, time and other credit info are unknown. )

      ** COMMENTS made on this article…

      2 thoughts on “Sand fire destroys homes near fire station in the Angeles National Forest”

      Comment by: Ken – July 27, 2016 at 9:42 pm,
      The Bear Divide Fire Station was not destroyed. Some govt residences and trailers on govt trailer pads were destroyed.

      Comment by: Darin – July 27, 2016 at 9:51 pm
      It wasn’t actually the fire station right? It was a few residences associated with the fire station. Your headline is misleading.
      ———————————————————————————–

  21. WantsToKnowTheTruth says

    **
    ** ENTRAPMENT AT THE ‘BLUE CUT’ FIRE – CAJON PASS – CA
    **
    ** 48 HOURS AGO – NO DEATHS… BUT SOME INJURIES

    The Victor Valley News
    Article Title: Firefighters Injured After Being Entrapped By Blue Cut Fire
    Published: August 16, 2016
    Updated: August 18, 2016
    http://www.vvng.com/firefighters-injured-after-being-entrapped-by-blue-cut-fire/

    From that article…
    ————————————————————————————————-
    Firefighters Injured After Being Entrapped By Blue Cut Fire

    Cajon Pass, CA – SIX firefighters became entrapped by wildfire today while defending homes and assisting evacuations in the Swarthout Canyon area west of Cajon Pass.

    The six firefighters were part of two San Bernardino County Fire (SBCoFD) engine companies assigned to the area northwest of Cajon Blvd.

    Firefighters were able to shelter in place within a nearby structure, but two firefighters sustained minor injuries. Both firefighters were transported to a local hospital where they were treated and released and are now back on the fire line defending structures.

    One SBCoFD fire engine sustained moderate fire damage.
    ——————————————————————————————————–

    There is NOTHING about anyone doing an ‘investigation’ of this ‘entrapment with injuries’.

    One of the reasons might be that I believe the ‘tripwire’ for whether an ‘investigation’ is mandatory is whether or not there are a minimum of THREE firefighters ‘injured’, or not.

    In this case… only TWO of the firefighters in the entrapment were sent to the hospital, but they were also then just ‘treated and released’ and are now ( according to the article above ) simply (quote) “back on the fire line DEFENDING STRUCTURES” again.

    Forget the fact that an ENGINE appears to also have been almost destroyed.

    That, alone, does not appear to ever be reason enough to ‘mandate’ an ‘investigation’.

    What is fairly IRONIC here is that THIS ‘entrapment’ just 48 hours ago appears to have taken place in the EXACT same specific ‘area’ ( the Swarthout Canyon area west of Cajon Pass ) where one of the FIRST known ‘shelter deployments’ ever took place back on June 22, 1964.

    That June 22, 1964 ‘entrapment’ took place in the very SAME ‘Cajon Pass’ area as this most recent ‘entrapment’… and involved 36 members of the the El Cariso Hotshots.

    Yes… the same ‘El Cariso’ Hotshots who would then go on to have 12 members of their crew DIE in the ‘Loop Fire’ on the Angeles National Forest just 2 years later… on November 1, 1966.

    Wildfire Today
    Article Title: One of the first times a fire shelter was used
    Published: November 12, 2013 – By Bill Gabbert
    http://wildfiretoday.com/2013/11/12/one-of-the-first-times-a-fire-shelter-was-used/

    From that article…
    ————————————————————————————————-
    El Cariso Hotshots entrapment, June 22, 1964 – CAJON PASS, CA…

    A former member of the El Cariso Hotshots, a southern California crew based on the Cleveland National Forest, sent us a copy of a newspaper article from August 9, 1964 that described a “new three-pound bodyguard” carried by U.S. Forest Service firefighters. It was one of the early versions of the tent-like aluminum fire shelters which are now standard issue for most wildland firefighters in the United States.

    But what was news to me was an entrapment of 36 members of El Cariso on June 22 of that year when they deployed their shelters on a fire near San Bernardino County’s Cajon Pass

    The article said they set an escape fire, then deployed the shelters in the freshly blackened area.

    No one was burned, except for one crewmember who was in a different location and did not use his fire shelter. He suffered serious burns which could have been worse, Lynn Biddison the Forest Fire Control Officer said, if he had not been wearing another new piece of equipment, a cotton shirt treated to be fire resistant.

    The Hotshots were told at the time that it was the first time fire shelters had been deployed in a life-saving situation.

    Someone correct me if I’m wrong, but I believe when 12 members of El Cariso were entrapped and killed on the Loop Fire on the Angeles National Forest two years later on November 1, 1966, they were not carrying their fire shelters because a decision had been made that it was not necessary because the fire was relatively quiet.

    NOTE: This article was UPDATED the NEXT DAY, on November 13, 2013, by Bill Gabbert

    Concerning the use of fire shelters on the Look Fire, below is a passage from the ( official ) report on that fatal fire:

    King and his assistant, Burchett, had organized their “Hot Shots” into two crews instead of the normal three crews as they were less than full strength at the time of this fire call. Foreman Leak was in charge of the lead crew and Foreman Moore in charge of the rear crew. They left their fire shelters on their truck. Their fire resistant shirts had worn out and were not replaced prior to this fire call. Angeles National Forest radios were not available for assignment to King as the last one at Contractor’s Point had been previously given to the Del Rosa crew.
    —————————————————————————————————

    • Robert the Second says

      WTKTT, I emailed you a short video clip from inside the Bear Divide Barracks as the Sand Fire burned around it

      • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

        Reply to Robert the Second ( RTS ) post on August 19, 2016 at 6:50 pm

        >> RTS said…
        >>
        >> WTKTT, I emailed you a short video clip from inside the Bear
        >> Divide Barracks as the Sand Fire burned around it.

        Thanks. Short indeed. Only 6 seconds long?
        Or did something go haywire with my download?

        Also… original 3GP video quality is poor and it’s hard to really
        make anything out ( but the FIRE does sound like a ‘freight train’, fer sure ).

        Where did you get this video?

        • Robert the Second says

          WTKTT, yes, the video clip from the HS Crew is only 6 seconds. I’m sure there are more. I sent it to you with hopes you’d be able to post it on IM.
          The Corrective Action by Pete Duncan within the SAFENET was nothing more than a rephrasing of the event and what occurred. It appears this one may be on its way to a coverup. I heard the HS wanted to fire off around the station early and were told it was too soon. Big mistake. It took less than 30 seconds to run up a chute at them. 

          • Robert the Second says

            WTKTT,

            CORRECTION: The short video clip is from the entrapped SBFD Engine FF’s seeking refuge in the Bear Divide HS Barracks.

            It should read: “yes, the video clip from the SBFD Engine Crew is only 6 seconds …”

          • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

            Reply to Robert the Second ( RTS ) post on
            August 20, 2016 at 8:59 am

            >> RTS said…
            >>
            >> WTKTT, yes, the video clip from the HS Crew is only 6 seconds.
            >> I’m sure there are more. I sent it to you with hopes you’d be
            >> able to post it on IM.

            I have uploaded exactly what you sent me ( byte for byte ) to YouTube and set it as a PUBLIC video.

            The direct link to the video is…

            https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y1GjZm7dsaw

            I also added a full copy of the SAFENET that has already been filed with regards to this ‘entrapment’ to the ‘description’ of the video… just in case that original SAFENET report suddenly ‘disappears’ from the SAFENET database.

            Here is the ‘About’ text for this PUBLIC YouTube video…

            ————————————————————————
            * BEAR CREEK DIVIDE RANGER STATION ENTRAPMENT

            This video was shot on July 23, 2016 by one of the firefighters who was involved in the ‘entrapment’ which took place at the ‘Bear Creek Divide Ranger/Fire Station’ in the Angeles National Forest, during the SAND FIRE of July-August 2016.

            The firefighter was ‘sheltering in place’ during the entrapment at the only building at that ‘Bear Divide Ranger Station’ which was NOT destroyed during the burnover at that location.

            The video is only 6 seconds in length, but it shows the fire as it was burning down the other structures at that ‘Bear Creek Divide Ranger Station’.

            Here is the actual SAFENET report filed regarding this ‘entrapment’ at the Bear Creek Divide Ranger Station on July 23, 2016…

            ( snip )
            A full copy of the SAFENET filed for this ‘entrapment’ incident
            ( /snip )
            —————————————————————-

            NOTE: I can still find NO evidence that ANY kind of ‘investigation’ is taking place with regards to this near-fatal entrapment on the ‘Sand Fire’.

            Those firefighters are LUCKY to be ALIVE… and the entire incident NEEDS to be INVESTIGATED so that the “Lessons to Learn” can be also then become common knowledge.

            • Robert the Second says

              WTKTT,

              Thank you for researching and re-configuring and posting the 6-second video onto YouTube.

              There is more out there I’m sure.

              That is correct, there is NO evidence that ANY kind of ‘investigation’ is taking place with regards to this near-fatal entrapment on the ‘Sand Fire’.

              We shall see, time will tell. There were numerous Federal, State, and Municipal Agencies involved and I hope that the SBFD steps up and does one, since it was their FF’s that were involved.

              Get in touch with the SBFD Public DIS-information Officers and see what they have.

              • Woodsman says

                You don’t think the federal agency that had their buildings nuked on their own land should do an investigation into the circumstances that caused it, but the city or county should instead since it was their folks involved in riding out the fire?

                • Robert the Second says

                  Woodsman,

                  I’m thinking it’s going to be the USFS and LA County doing the bulk of the Investigation with maybe the SBFD as well because of their FF’s being involved.

                  • Woodsman says

                    Makes sense. I would think the FS would be seriously inclined to figure out what the hell happened, primarily for firefighter safety & secondarily because buildings are freaking expensive.

                    Try to keep the dumbasses from killing themselves out there.

    • Bob Powers says

      Even if El Cariso had the shelters there was no time to use them they wee in a steep chimney
      which funneled the heat and flames right at them they could not have deployed if they wanted to they had seconds on steep terrain above the fire which went up the Chimney in seconds.

      After that it was Mandatory in California to Carrie Shelters though they would have done no good in that situation.

      The USFS R5 decided if it was issued safety Equipment you carried it.

      • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

        Reply to Bob Powers post on August 21, 2016 at 7:13 am

        >> Bob Powers said…
        >>
        >> They wee in a steep chimney which funneled the heat and
        >> flames right at them

        Yes… they were… and so was ‘Granite Mountain’.

        Looks like ‘Granite Mountain’ never got the ‘memos’ about ‘walking through fuel-choked chimneys within 1/2 mile of a dynamic wind-driven wildfire’ and what a STUPID ‘choice’ that always is.

        Even former Yarnell Fire Chief Peter Andersen said, after the tragedy that to make such a choice was… “You might as well be standing in a fireplace with the flue open.”

        The Phoenix New Times
        Article Title: Yarnell Hill Fire Investigation Ignored Major Mistakes by the State
        Published: Wednesday, October 16, 2013 at 12 p.m.- By John Dougherty
        http://www.phoenixnewtimes.com/news/yarnell-hill-fire-investigation-ignored-major-mistakes-by-the-state-6667860

        —————————————————————
        Like tens of thousands of people who’ve closely examined the circumstances leading up to the hotshots’ deaths, Anderson doesn’t understand why the crew was in the box canyon in the first place, much less at a time of day when wildfires typically display their greatest intensity and when thunderstorm warnings had been issued.

        “Anybody who has ever taken a wild-lands class is warned about box canyons,” Andersen says. “You might as well be standing in a fireplace with the flue open.”

        The question of why the men were there haunts Andersen. And, he says, the lack of substantive conclusions in a report issued September 28 after a state-commissioned investigation into their deaths has left him unsatisfied.

        “I think it’s a big cover-up, a big snow job,” he says.
        —————————————————————

        >> Bob Powers also said…
        >>
        >> After that it was Mandatory in California to Carrie Shelters

        Mandatory… for WHO? Hotshots only? Plenty of photos around of these ‘hybrid’ California structure/wildland firefighters NOT carrying any shelters at all, even to this day.

        >> Bob Powers also said…
        >>
        >> The USFS R5 decided if it was issued safety Equipment you carried it.

        So… only applies to USFS people?

        Look at the following photograph taken just recently ( on July 23, 2016 ), of LA County ‘Firefighters’ trying to fight the ‘Sand Fire’.

        This guy is at the end of a hose lay trying to attack a fireline that is suddenly ‘flaring up’ and threatening his life…

        …and he has absolutely NO ‘pack’ or ‘fire shelter’…

        http://photos.dailynews.com/2016/07/photos-deadly-sand-fire-destroys-18-homes-burns-22000-acres/#25

        Photo Caption: Santa Clarita, California. An LA County firefighter finds himself in a tad bit of trouble as flames from the Sand Fire get too close. This was a spot fire that he tried to get to but they had to pull out. This is along Placerita Canyon Road. ( Photo by Mike Meadows ).

        • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

          Followup…

          The photo of the FF standing knee-deep in grass with NO FIRE SHELTER and trying to fight the recent ‘Sand Fire’ at the link above comes up as the SECOND photo on that page. You have to scroll down a bit past the top photo of the Helicopter to see it.

          And here is that same California FF just moments later… ( still with NO SHELTER ) desperately trying to get his hose back to his little truck and get the fuck OUT of where he was…

          http://photos.dailynews.com/2016/07/photos-deadly-sand-fire-destroys-18-homes-burns-22000-acres/#33

          Photo Caption: Santa Clarita, California. An LA County FD patrol truck finds itself in a very warm position as they tried to come in and put out a spot fire along Placerita Canyon Road. The fire got bigger than they anticipated. They did get out. ( Photo by Mike Meadows )

          • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

            For that second photo above… same deal… you have to scroll DOWN under the photo of the Helicopter to see it. It’s the SECOND photo on that page.

            Logo on the FF’s little truck in the photo above is…

            LA County Fire Department

            • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

              And notice the TREE in that second photo above, right next to that “Los Angeles County Fire Department” vehicle as that FF ( with NO Fire Shelter ) is trying to get himself and his little truck the fuck OUT of there.

              The TREE shows that the WIND was blowing TOWARDS this guy… who had NO FIRE SHELTER.

              The photographer himself says this FF ‘made it out’.
              Looks like it was a pretty close call, though.

              • Bob Powers says

                To Make Myself Clear.

                In the 19 60s The Forest Service Spoke only for its self.

                The Regions were allowed to set their own additional Safety Requirements. R5 was a region that required the carrying of shelters on all fires for ALL R5 Fire fighters and if any one came to R5 they were required to carry Fire shelters on Fires.
                Many Regions as Gary has said took severial years to have the Mandatory requirement. as well as BLM and the Park Service.

                At that time the State and Many Counties adopted the same thing in California. Buy 1967/68 it was fully implemented.
                in CALIFORNIA—–

                There was no ICS until the 1980s and then it exploded.

                As for Engines and crews they have to put on and take off their gear every time they get in and out of the Engine.
                The gear is to balky to sit in a seat. Not sure what your LACO guy was doing would assume the Gear was in the Cab.

                My gear was always in the front seat with me in my small Engine Patrol Truck 125 Gal. Unit.

                The new Packs the carry today are full of stuff and they are put on when they reach the Fire these packs carry the Shelter.
                Us old guys back when had them attached to our canteen belt.
                we had the old army type belts with the shoulder straps the shelter set in between the Canteens on the back of the belt on mine. some strapped them on above the belt. it was easer to have every thing attached to your belt back then and most regulars did. By the late 60s we had vests that had a back carry pack that was also adopted by most FFs and crews.
                I will say I really like the new Packs wish I had one way back then. We NEVER CARRIED 40 LBS back then.

                • rocksteady says

                  Does anyone on here know if CalFire or LA County Fire has a policy where the FF must wear a shelter??

                  That is the question..

                  • Bob Powers says

                    Yes LA County and Cal Fire do

                    The Structure crews do not they are the ones wearing the Turn Outs, Running Hose not WLFF.
                    No gear of any kind under turn out coat.

                    There is a difference between the two with in the Urban Interface.

  22. WantsToKnowTheTruth says

    **
    ** SOBERANES ( BIG SUR ) DOZER OPERATOR FATALITY REPORT

    The ‘Cal Fire’ ‘green sheet’ ( preliminary ) report on the death of contract bulldozer operator Robert Reagan has been published.

    It’s fairly complete ( with photos ) and it’s pretty clear what happened.

    A combination of ‘bad circumstances’ ( an Engine blocking his path on a road ) and ‘bad decison making’ ( how to get around that Engine in the DARK ).

    Mr. Reagan was trying to reach a work assignment while traveling on a narrow dirt road ( in the dark ), but there was an Engine blocking that ‘lower’ road he was on. He took another ‘higher’ road that branched off and ran ‘above’ the ‘lower’ road… and as soon as he passed the engine he tried to return to the ‘lower’ road in a place that had an 81 percent slope.

    The dozer he was driving actually had a fully-enclosed CAB… with both ‘rollover’ protection bars and additional rollover ‘sweeps’ installed on the sides… but as the dozer rolled over… Mr. Reagan was ‘ejected’ out the left side for ( apparently ) two reasons…

    1. He wasn’t wearing his seatbelt.
    2. The LEFT door of the enclosed cab had been left OPEN.

    The dozer actually ‘contacted’ the back of the ‘Engine’ he was trying to get around on that ‘lower’ road as it rolled over and as Mr. Reagan was ‘ejected’.

    The report says that it had been DISCUSSED how Mr. Reagan was supposed to ‘get around’ that Engine that night and that he was SUPPOSED to have traveled farther on the ‘upper’ road to a place where he could have tried to return to the ‘lower’ road on only about a 42 percent grade… but Mr. Reagan apparently decided ( on his own ) to try to return to the ‘lower’ road ( in the dark ) on an 81 percent grade as soon as he thought he was ‘clear’ of the back of the Engine blocking the lower road.

    There are charts, diagrams ( and photos ) that show pretty clearly what happened.

    WARNING: The ‘Article’ and the ‘Cal Fire’ report displayed at the following link contains at least FOUR photographs of the actual ‘accident scene’ photographed the next day in the ‘daylight’… including the actual overturned dozer still in the same position it was when Mr. Regan was crushed under it. Mr. Reagan’s BODY had already been REMOVED from underneath the dozer the previous night and BEFORE these photos were taken… but some people might consider these photos ‘disturbing’ to see, anyway. You have been WARNED.

    The article below also goes into more detail about the COMPANY that Mr. Reagan had been working for having its license suspended 8 times in just 4 years.

    KQED – The California Report
    Article Title: Cal Fire Probe Details Death of Dozer Driver in Big Sur Blaze
    Published: August 5, 2016 – By Ted Goldberg
    https://ww2.kqed.org/news/2016/08/05/soberanes-fire-bulldozer-operator-killed/

    From that article…
    —————————————————————————————
    A preliminary report from Cal Fire investigators says that a bulldozer driver killed while working on the massive fire near Big Sur was ejected from his machine as it tipped over on a steep embankment, possibly because he wasn’t wearing a seat belt.

    The Cal Fire “green sheet” says the operator — earlier identified as Robert Reagan, 35, of the Fresno County town of Friant — died nearly instantly after being pinned to the ground as the bulldozer turned over.

    The report on the incident, which Cal Fire emphasizes is still under investigation, says Reagan may not have been wearing the bulldozer’s lap-style seat belt and that it’s likely the left door of the machine’s cab was open.

    Reagan, who was working for Madera County-based Czirban Concrete Construction, a Cal Fire contractor, had been assigned to bulldoze a fire line on the northwestern edge of the Soberanes Fire. The area where Reagan was working is characterized by steep ridges, deep canyons and is accessible only by a network of narrow dirt roads.

    After being briefed by another dozer operator and conferring with firefighters, he began maneuvering his machine toward the proposed line shortly before 11 p.m. on July 26.

    Reagan’s path was blocked by a fire engine parked on a dirt road, so he guided his dozer onto a roadway that ran parallel to and above the first one. His new path required him to drive down a steep embankment to get back to the lower road and reach his assignment. Although he had identified a spot he felt would be safe, the report said, he instead steered his machine onto the lip of an 81 percent slope and started down.

    A firefighter stationed at the engine on the lower road told investigators he saw Reagan’s dozer slide down the slope. The bulldozer’s blade struck the edge of the embankment, he said, causing the machine to roll onto its left side. The dozer eventually came into contact with the fire engine’s rear bumper.

    Reagan “was ejected from the cab and was pinned beneath the left sweep,” the report states. Sweeps are sets of heavy bars meant to protect the operator’s cab.

    A paramedic who was nearby at the time pronounced Reagan dead.
    —————————————————————————————

    A copy of the ACTUAL ‘Cal Fire’ report is viewable ( with photos ) at the BOTTOM of the article above… but the following is also a ‘direct’ link to the ‘Cal Fire’ report itself ( with charts, diagrams and photos ) as uploaded to the SCRIBD Online PDF Document Service…

    https://www.scribd.com/document/320307394/Cal-Fire-Report-on-Soberanes-Fire-Fatality#download&from_embed

    • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

      Followup…

      Here is another photo of the ‘accident’ scene which was NOT included in the article above OR in the actual ‘Cal Fire’ preliminary report.

      It was taken AFTER Mr. Robert Reagan’s dozer itself was REMOVED from the accident scene… and a makeshift ‘memorial cross’ was placed at the spot where his body was found ( under the dozer ).

      Same WARNING as above applies.

      SOME people might find this photo ‘disturbing’. You have been warned.

      The ‘wooden cross’ has the name ‘Robert Reagan III’ on it, and the photo was taken by someone standing on the ‘lower’ road which had the ‘Engine’ blocking it that night… and looking back up the 81 percent grade ’embankment’ and up towards the ‘higher road’ that Mr. Reagan had been on trying to get AROUND that ‘Engine’ blocking his way.

      Notice just to the LEFT of the cross you can still see where the BLADE of Mr. Reagan’s dozer ‘dug in’ to the embankment as it was ‘rolling over’.

      The photo is the 6th one down from the top on the following article that contains several photos from the ‘Soberanes’ fire…

      http://www.firstpost.com/printpage.php?idno=2928382&sr_no=0

      The CAPTION on the photo reads…

      ———————————————————————————
      A cross is seen at the site where bulldozer operator Robert Reagan of Fresno County was killed in a rollover on 26 July, while fighting the Soberanes Fire. His sister Hannah Cunnings said that Reagan was the kind of person who would offer to put snow chains on your car or fix an engine that needed fixing. “Even since he was a boy he just really wanted to help people,” she said, crying. The Monterey County Sheriff’s Office said Reagan is survived by a common-law wife and two young daughters. Cunnings said her brother and his wife also cared for a young niece. Reuters
      ———————————————————————————

      A DIRECT link to just the photo itself is as follows…

      http://s1.firstpost.in/wp-content/uploads/2016/08/3_California-fire.jpg

    • says

      Yarnell hill fire-these details trouble me:

      1. Brendan states in his book,My lost brothers, that voices from hotshots during mayday calls is Eric marsh yet others attribute the voice to Jesse steed or others.

      2. Near or at time of deployment marsh is heard to say “that is right where we need it” ( referring to retardant drop).
      Who was he communicating with at that time?

      3. Apparently analog watches that granite mountain was wearing could determine time of death–where are they?

      4. From radio transmissions to appears that Eric marsh could have lived at least 10 minutes after the burn over. Is this fact part of a cover up that men could have lived 10 minutes or more instead of much shorter time?

    • Charlie says

      This dozer story reminds me when Dad and I were coming back from his copper mine near Duncan, AZ and on our way home to his BiG Chief Mine west of Lordsburg, we ran into a number of cars parked and people waving us to stop. A station wagon had stopped, run out of gas and in the back seat was a man who had gotten out of his D8 and somehow wound up under the tracks of it so that it ran over him just below his butt. Both legs were crushed and a boot was there on his matress with the leg bone sticking straight up out of it. No one wanted to haul him in he was such a mess, but Dad and I helped the drivers load him into the back seat of Dad’s 53 caddy and rushed him on into Lordsburg to the hospital.

      I saw that man a few years later with no legs and rubber pads selling pencils on the main sidewalk of Lordsburg. I was surprised he had lived–dozers are dangerous.

      • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

        Reply to Charlie post on August 22, 2016 at 1:11 am

        >> Charlie said…
        >>
        >> dozers are dangerous.

        Yes, they are.

        Especially when you don’t wear the provided seat belt(s), and you leave the doors unlatched, and then you try to navigate down an 81 percent slope in the DARK because you are in some kind of hurry ( or someone has TOLD you to be in a hurry ) to get where the people paying you want you to start working.

        Just in case it wasn’t obvious from the report above…

        A 90 percent slope value would be ( you guessed it ) “The Cliffs of Dover”.
        A 90 percent slope is STRAIGHT DOWN ( Vertical direction ).

        So an 81 percent slope ( which is what this dozer operator was trying to drive down in the DARK ) is just ‘9 percent less than STRAIGHT VERTICAL’.

        He was ( supposedly ) told to travel farther on the ‘upper road’ before trying to drive back down to the ‘lower road’… and reach a place that was still steep ( and still dangerous in the dark ) with only about a 43 percent ‘slope’ back down to the ‘lower road’… but either he misunderstood those instructions OR ( perhaps ) thought he HAD reached the point where he was told to drive back down to the lower road… but could not SEE the slope he was attempting at that point because of the DARK.

        It’s all very sad… and it should NOT have happened.

        • Woodsman says

          100% slope is 45 degrees not vertical. Think of rise over run. 1 foot horizontal to 1 foot vertical equals 100% slope. 1:1. 80% is steep. That’s why there are foot pads on the dash of the dozers. No seatbelt & running the machine with the door(s) open is a no-no.

          Woodsman

          • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

            Reply to Woodsman post on August 23, 2016 at 3:44 pm

            >> Woodsman said…
            >>
            >> 100% slope is 45 degrees not vertical.
            >> Think of rise over run. 1 foot horizontal to 1 foot
            >> vertical equals 100% slope. 1:1.

            You are absolutely right. Thank you. I stand corrected.

            I really did just think that a ‘slope’ which represents a 45 degree angle would also then be considered a 45 degree ‘slope’.

            As you point out… not so much.

            According to the ‘rise vs. run’ approach… therIn the ‘Ce actually is NO possible way to represent ‘absolute vertical’ with this kind of ‘slope degree’ approach.

            If the ‘run’ is 0 ( no run distance, absolute vertical ) then you can’t even calculate a ‘slope’ value because no matter what the ‘rise’ might be… the result of dividing the ‘rise’ by the ‘run’ ( zer0 ) will always be ZERO.

            In the ‘Cliffs of Dover’ example ( or for any near-vertical )… if you had a 1,000 foot ‘rise’ versus only ( say ) a 1 foot ‘run’ down there at the bottom ( not full vertical but close )… the ‘slope percent’ in that case would actually be a whopping 100,000 percent!

            So yea… once you get past a ’45 degree angle’… the ‘rise vs. run’ approach starts to get WAY over 100 percent the close you get to vertical.

            >> Woodsman said…
            >>
            >> 80% is steep. That’s why there are foot pads on the dash
            >> of the dozers. No seatbelt & running the machine with
            >> the door(s) open is a no-no.

            It remains incredibly sad that this happened.

            If there WAS that ‘upper road’ and that ‘intersection’ right there… then why the hell didn’t the ‘Engine’ park up that slope and leave the main ( lower ) road CLEAR so other vehicles could get where they needed to go?

            Somehow… this feels a lot like those other fatalities where an Engine was forced to try and ‘miss’ a bunch of firefighters just STANDING there on the inside curve of a very narrow dirt road… and in the attempt to drive AROUND the firefighters who were just STANDING there on the side of the raod… then Engine slipped off the road and fell about 1,000 feet.

            The firefighters blocking the road should have just MOVED instead of forcing the Engine to try and ‘hug the edge’ of that dangerous curve.

            If that Engine had not been blocking that lower road… ( or had moved out of the way when necessary ) it’s highly likely Mr. Reagan would still be with us.

            • Woodsman says

              A 45 degree angle IS a 45 degree slope. It’s also a 100 PERCENT slope. It’s common for people to confuse degree with percent. Slope is usually referred to in percent. I just didn’t want you or anyone else to misunderstand how steep the incline Mr. Reagan (R.I.P.) attempted to descend which led to his tragic death was.

              I agree that the engine apparently blocking the way affected the outcome. I wish events and decisions were different as they could have been & should have been. That’s a little of my hindsight bias speaking, admittedly.

              Woodsman

  23. Gary Olson says

    I am moving this to the top because it is important and I don’t want it to get lost in the weeds. We, led by the NWCG, are collectively training our young firefighters to die by telling them those damn WF death shrouds will save them.

    I also owe an apology to the Prescott Fire Department but I’m not going to give them one. I started out on the blog three years ago blaming THEM for the death of the crew, but I have EVOLVED (Silence of the Lambs – Part 2). The PFD are just from floating cancer cells in the bloodstream, the malignant tumor mass in this scenario is the NWCG who represent everything wrong with ICS..

    rocksteady says
    AUGUST 17, 2016 AT 7:31 AM

    GAry, I was not recommending deploying a shelter in a non survivable area, I was simply drawing a line of thought processes, where the original comment was “Lyon ran out of the fire”. I assumed other, non WFF types on this site may have jumped to the conclusion that if GMIHS had done same that they would have survived.

    I was trying to head the theory off at the pass… Due to the extreme heat and incredible rates of spread, there would have been ZERO chance of the GMIHS personnel outrunning the Yarnell Hill Fire…

    I tried to do that by stating that the Twisp fire was a different fuel type and fire behaviour, basically telling people that even if that was a standard order, to drop packs and run, rather than deploying, it would not have helped in the Yarnell scenario.

    Guess I did not articulate it well enough…

    I was using the online Canadian-American dictionary and guess something got missed in the translation ?

    Reply
    Gary Olson says
    AUGUST 17, 2016 AT 9:17 AM

    My sincerest apologies, I sure am glad all of you Canadians are so darn nice, ya, you becha…you know.

    I do have my radar up all of the time because I got so much push back when I and others championed this argument way back when. I really do feel strongly that we (and no…I don’t have a mouse in my pocket, I mean “we” as in everybody) led by the NWCG are collectively training our young WF to die through brainwashing to overly depend on those damn death shrouds to save them.

    This over dependence leads to unacceptable reckless behavior the same way some people drive faster and take more chances because they have both seat belts and air bags.

    There is a whole chapter on this topic swirling around inside my head. But in the meantime, I do apologize to you…our northern friend.

    FYI…I came very close to being a Canuck myself…my mother and father seriously looked at staying in Canada on their way to the Land of the Midnight Sun, while they were living in construction camps and my father was working on the Alcan Highway, but they kept going north so I was born in the U.S. Territory of Alaska.

    I love to say that I was born in a U.S. territory. No one can ever guess where I was born when I say I was born in one, all they can come up with is Guam.

    • Gary Olson says

      Wait, I didn’t read this right.

      “I was trying to head the theory off at the pass… Due to the extreme heat and incredible rates of spread, there would have been ZERO chance of the GMIHS personnel outrunning the Yarnell Hill Fire…”

      OK…let’s get together some time at the actual deployment site, (and don”t want anyone to start bitchin’ at me for this analogy, it is the best I can come up with, if you can come up with a better one, I will use it) I will have an M-4 (with which I am very proficient in the use of and a deadly shot) and I will give you two choices.

      I. I will shoot you in the head multiple times right where we stand.

      or

      2. I will give you a X minutes (and I would like WTKTT to fill in the X based on all of his calculations up to this point) head start to run…and then I will start shooting at you. I will probably still hit you and you will just die tired, but at least you will be on your feet running away from the threat.

      And I will bet you anything you want to bet…that you will RUN as fast and as far as your legs will carry you can.

      So please…everyone…shut the fuck up and quit telling our WF they shouldn’t even try to live by running no matter how small the chances are they will survive.

      • says

        In the case of granite mountain and what their chances would have been had they run—due to radio transmissions from AA to marsh shortly before and at time of deployment (“we are going to bring you the VLAT etc but need to know where you are) isn’t it possible that the hotshots were positioning themselves for assistance from AA and possibly thought being under the shelters was their best option until AA arrived?
        There were reports that Eric marsh was attempting radio transmissions about 10 minutes after the burn over. Could he have been trying to give AA details on their location in the hopes of saving his crew?

      • rocksteady says

        You make a good analogy….

        But look at the video of Willis “commending” the crew for staying all together in the deployment site, that no one broke ranks and ran for it, “they died as a cohesive unit”…

        Is that an unwritten rule in the US where the crew HAS to stay and die together?? I doubt it, probably just the militaristic mindset of Hotshot crews… But I could be wrong…

        The over dependence/false sense of security, as well as the astounding costs of the next generation shelters were all part of the reason that all of Canada, not just one Province squished the policy of having/training/packing and using the darn things…

        • Gary Olson says

          I haven’t been able to reach a conclusion as to why the entire crew laid down and died together, but here are some of my thoughts and the militaristic mindset of hotshot crews as you put it could be one of them.

          1. They were really that cohesive of a crew which would not be uncommon for a hotshot crew.

          2. They truly believed in Jesse Steed that much to lay down and die with him because he said that is what they should do.

          3. They were aware fire shelters had recently been used successfully on a fire they were on in similar conditions and fuels, I think it was the Holloway Fire.

          4. They were a relatively inexperienced crew although that does not account for the actions of Steed and a few others who were experienced.

          But my leading theory is that they were just that brainwashed by the system. Unless you have been through the indoctrination process that they put WF firefighters through, you have no idea of how pervasive and strong it really is. Which is why I am afraid there are more Granite Mountain crews out there waiting to die and why I am pushing so hard on this topic.

          I don’t believe there is any place in any of the fire shelter training that the concept of “how big is big enough” is even mentioned much less taught. And if there could be just one thing come out of this disaster…I think it should be that.

          Teach wildland firefighters about the LIMITATIONS of those death shrouds. This is why I think ultimately the NWCG is responsible for the deaths of the crew and I would have based all lawsuits on that fact…after I went over their deeply flawed training with a fine tooth comb and proved they were never taught to even think about that factor.

          There is no other explanation I can think of why 19 mature men would lay down and willing be burned alive in an area about the size of a three car garage when they needed 16.5 acres to escape after using their fire shelters without serious injuries.

          Now…we can argue for the rest of time exactly how much less space they could have gotten away with and at least survived. If they would have tried deploying those things inside a ONE acre space I would have understood, but will never understand doing so in a 20′ by 30′ space…never.

          • Joy A. Collura says

            Or maybe the men as a group really were spent and they were so close to ranch that they thought help was coming…if not by air attack…by the dozer driver who has still not yet been properly interviewed

        • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

          Reply to rocksteady post on August 17, 2016 at 11:29 am

          >> rocksteady said…
          >>
          >> But look at the video of Willis “commending” the crew for
          >> staying all together in the deployment site, that no one
          >> broke ranks and ran for it, “they died as a cohesive unit”…

          What Mr. ‘God, Guts and Glory’ military-wannabee and preacher-wannabee all-rolled-into-one Darrell Willis ACTUALLY said ( to the media ) was…

          “…they died with honor.

          As if doing anything else but laying down and comitting suicide would have been a ‘dishonorable’ thing to have done… for civil-service employees ( NOT military people ) making just a little bit more than minimum wage.

          Willis’ statements ( most of them ) from the ‘deployment’ site remain in the ‘unbelievable’ category.

          Willis should have NEVER been allowed to be the one doing that initial press conference following the tragedy… and the fact that he WAS even allowed to do it and to say the stupid things he ended up saying that day is just more proof that these kind of ‘culture kills’ problems are firmly ENSCONCED in this ‘civil service’ agency called “The Forestry Service”.

          Here is exactly what Willis’ said to the media from the deployment site itself…

          ———————————————————————————-
          The… the voice of what actually happened… we’ll never know.
          We’re not gonna have that information from them.

          But… uh… I can tell ya that they died with honor.

          That… uh… they stuck together.

          One of the things that… that… is… uh… very unique about this situation is 19 firefighters saw and felt the same way.

          They… uh… nobody cut and run the other direction.
          Nobody tried to get out of the way.
          They all deployed.
          They were a very cohesive team.

          ———————————————————————————

          Here’s the original posting of the COMPLETE transcript of Willis’ ‘presentation’ to the press out at the deployment site…

          On December 13, 2013 at 9:56 pm, WantsToKnowTheTruth ( WTKTT ) posted…

          ** THE COMPLETE TRANSCRIPT OF DARRELL WILLIS’ PRESS CONFERENCE
          ** HELD AT THE DEPLOYMENT SITE JULY 23, 2013.

          http://www.investigativemedia.com/granite-mountain-hotshots-were-asked-if-they-could-protect-yarnell/#comment-5642

            • Joy A. Collura says

              I am feeling rough today and so want to ccomprehend how one thinks one lies or is a scumbag…have you ever witnessed such…the man spoke hearsay in my court case but I never saw in 2013 media to that court case to attended memorial. Events to ever feel Willis lied…I also seen and interviewed non involved fire community folks in regards and they shared to ne their account which involved Willis…That day that final moment with eyewitnesses confirmation Willis was unaware when they were around him…I know people who use tiny planes so on a day like that where there is missing elements still present I am going to state until all information arrives can we please be mindful of labels…I have to state I am disappointed in certain mannerisms Willis shown since the fire but every human being has told a lie in their lifetime and I even asked nuns and priests. …I get being frustrated but names like such…I cannot comprehend yet I have been fighting a 105 fever and been rough pain so maybe I need either further education or more sleep…rest. Publicly even at worst when he had to play a role of “sides” in a court room I felt he was good…hopefully I can get what today’s topic means if a new day arrives..good night

              • Joy A. Collura says

                I feel confident even as the hours oassed what I said at my low point. Yesterday we were doing get your life needs in order for Sonny and when the banker was talking I out of know where brought up a past event in his life that I could never know and I never met him before or nor do I hang out in Scottsdale banks much but Sonnys daughter was trying to kindly cover up what I just spoke and he looked at her and said she is right in what she said but noone knew about it but the guy who was there and him and I brought up racism was core to event and another she is right was said so I dont claim I am anything but me yet I read people well and with Willis I can see him have a label omission but not liar…also due to his position he may of learned what THEY needed him to know but do not bank Willis knew much…I wish Roy Hall and Musser and Abel were properly interviewed or even by me…Hall has not been properly shown for his role in the yhf not in the media or sair so you want to say anything…until the proper folks step forward labels like scumbag seem not right…back to sleep…long driving day kind of day…

                • rocksteayd says

                  I called Mr. Willis that for several reasons…

                  I do have some training in reading body language and there were several indicators in his first TV interview that he was definitively “making stuff up”…

                  Secondly, he is privy to exactly what Donut had to come clean about and get off his chest….

                  Since Donut has failed miserably to grow a set of cajoles and come forward, Mr. Willis should have either A. Convinced Donut to come clean, or B. Release the information to investigators.

                • says

                  Regarding joys suggestion of interviewing key personnel that were not interviewed following the Yarnell hill fire—-if this is feasible seems like joy could obtain some important information.

                  • Joy A. Collura says

                    I have no clue what proper words to label it are but I think without all the missing elements and I know factually since the fire he has privvy to additional fire facts that he did not have on that final hours- and he has not spoke in a media format but there is a person if I was placed on the court stand I would share where I got alot of tedious details with either documented details or sound recordings where I am able to state such in manner I did on him private or public and on this blog…yet I will not throw any of Willis or Marsh’s folks under the bus as I stated in court unless I was subpoenaed to do so- too crony of a county—I can state this; both sides of litigation would benefit to put me on the stand…

              • Joy A. Collura says

                what way?

                on stating more information should be presented on topic of Willis before calling him names like such on this blog?

                God led to me TOO MANY since the fire that is either on the fire community or on that fire or use to work for him or know him personally…I know too much on certain areas and all I can do is lead people where to dig…and you go back to page one to now and you will see I did in some fashion and if I did not…there are total of five different people who have the details behind the scenes in case I pass on…I won’t die with it like Willis stated some answers died with the men—I think if the right folks just speak public we will see not all the answers died with the men- right Mr. Morin 🙂 and R. Hall 🙂

                • rocksteady says

                  Joy… There are several reasons that I called him that.

                  I do have some law enforcement training and one of those was reading body language. There are several places within his media press release that there are indications that he is lying.

                  Secondly, he KNOWS exactly what Donut needed to get off his chest, but has never come forward with it. He should have either recommended that Donut speak up, or he would. The families of the fallen want to know the truth, Willis has some knowledge of the missing bits 9the stuff Donut had to get off his chest), but he still, after 3 years, is not willing to tell all he knows.

                  Based on that, I used the scumbag word..

              • Joy A. Collura says

                feel what way? Diane, I am “swungover”.
                ..
                https://youtu.be/TOPSETBUgvQ

                I can say this…I am No…Able Grable
                maybe at times a chucklehead…and in the day you thought as I danced I was filled with helium…especially when I jitterbug danced…I think if one asked Willis or Paul Morin or Roy Hall anything even to this day about that fire they would say TAKE A POWDER…lay off…

                You coming to IM, Diane…you are my killer diller hope that maybe more will surface…

                When I think of you…I so see the whip…the push…the lindy hop…so let’s do the jive and see what can happen if you just ask…maybe something…maybe not…

                No I am not drinking any jitter sauce or hot toddies…
                https://youtu.be/cbaNYWkQYYA

                I love you “golden generation” who introduced me at age 9 to the good ol’ days…where women were more “real” and men were well men…torso tossing; a favorite pass time…

                this should be a part of physical ed in HS…the decades of dancing…hopefully whatever the heck is going on with my body will be solved in September and back to normalcy…

                meantime…thank you Diane for your continued participation on this blog.

                God Bless You!

    • Muzzy says

      Rocksteady said: …the original comment was “Lyon ran out of the fire”.

      Yes, but the very bad, not very narrative, suggests that he didn’t try and fail to outrun the fire. The fire had overrun his truck as it lay in the drainage (or the truck went through the flaming front before it stopped), so Lyon had no choice but to run through the fire to get back to the road. He suggests that if he’d had structural FF turnouts and SCBA, he might have been fine. His boots protected his feet, and his eyes and eyebrows were saved by his sunglasses, and his helmet protected his head until he lost it (his helmet, not his head).

      It’s possible that if he had been able to keep the shelter with him, it might have helped protect him, but those things are so flimsy, the effort may have slowed down his escape, so it would be a wash. As you know, I don’t think the engine should have been there at all, and if carrying a shelter contributed to his being there, I am happy to forbid them on the fire line.

      • Gary Olson says

        I don’t think the fire shelter was ever a factor in the Twisp fire one way or the other. I also doubt that Lyons ever had one with him since I don’t think he would have had it on inside the engine and then in the chaos of the crash, he probably couldn’t locate it or even think about trying to find it.

        I don’t think people who work on engines ever give much thought to their fire shelters since they always assume they will just drive away in their engine if things get back. Engine crewmen are rarely more than the length of a hose lay away from a way to escape the fire, although there have been significant exceptions such as on the Esperanza Fire.

        • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

          Reply to Gary Olson post on August 17, 2016 at 1:05 pm

          >> Gary Olson said…
          >>
          >> I don’t think the fire shelter was ever a factor in the Twisp
          >> fire one way or the other.

          Not for ‘Engine 642’.

          There is not one piece of evidence which suggests that either Daniel Lyons ( who ran up the embankment ) or the other 3 firefighters ( who burned to death inside the Engine itself ) were even WEARING their ‘packs’ when they were inside the Engine.

          >> Gary Olson also said…
          >>
          >> I also doubt that Lyons ever had one with him since I don’t
          >> think he would have had it on inside the engine.

          See above. This is a GOOD POINT.

          There is NO EVIDENCE that ANY of those men were still actually WEARING their packs while they were in the Engine.

          And certainly not the DRIVER, right?

          I mean.. how would actually DRIVE one of these things if you WERE still wearing a full field-pack-with-shelter.

          I don’t think the seat even goes back FAR enough for that to be accomplished.

          >> Gary Olson also said…
          >>
          >> and then in the chaos of the crash, he probably couldn’t locate
          >> it or even think about trying to find it.

          There actually isn’t much evidence that Daniel Lyon has ever really been fully ‘interviewed’ about what happened that day… by ANYONE.

          It’s perfectly possible he doesn’t remember a thing about what happened.

          His last ‘clear’ recollection might be just riding in the engine… and then he has said he remembers some details about his ‘evac’… but there has never been anything published which says he recalls any ‘details’ about the crash itself, or his decision making process at that point.

          Engine 642 did not ‘crash’ all that hard. It never ‘flipped’ over or anything like that. It just left the road and ran down the embankment in an already-in-flames area.

          So when the Engine came to REST… it can be assumed that ALL FOUR of those FFs were still conscious… and beyond and the “Holy shits” that might have been spoken it’s also reasonable to assume there was some conversation about “what do we do now? do we get out or stay IN here?”.

          How much TIME elapsed, after Engine 642 ‘came to rest’ before Daniel Lyon ( sitting in the left rear seat, behind the driver ) pushed that back left passenger door open ( and just LEFT it open, according to the reports ) and charged UP the embankment?

          How much ‘conversation’ was there INSIDE the engine before he did that?

          Maybe Daniel doesn’t remember… but maybe he DOES and no one has ever bothered to even ASK him that question.

          Apparently… regardless of any conversation… Daniel Lyon made his own decision(s).

          He decided to at least TRY and ‘stay alive’… no matter what.

          And he succeeded.

          It still remains a question whether the OTHERS would have also ‘survived’ if they had made the same decision(s) Daniel Lyon did.

          >> Gary Olson also said…
          >>
          >> I don’t think people who work on engines ever give much
          >> thought to their fire shelters since they always assume
          >> they will just drive away in their engine if things get back.
          >> Engine crewmen are rarely more than the length of a
          >> hose lay away from a way to escape the fire, although
          >> there have been significant exceptions such as on the
          >> Esperanza Fire.

          There is still a LOT we don’t know about what happened that day at the Twisp Fire.

          There were ( at least ) FOUR ‘Engines’ up there in that residential neighborhood, ABOVE that uncontained Wildfire, when the shit hit the fan.

          THREE of them were able to make it DOWN Woods Canyon Road ( AFTER Engine 642 had failed to do so ).

          NONE of those Engines should have been up there at all… but there are still a lot of ‘details’ missing regarding this tragedy.

          Reports ‘suggest’ that a ‘tire popped’… but there is still nothing with regards to maintenance records for that converted pickup truck with a flatbed and a water tank added called ‘Engine 642’.

          How OLD were the tires?

          Was Richard Wheeler ( the one who was driving Engine 642 that day ) even ‘qualified’ to be driving it at all?

    • Muzzy says

      Gary said: “I love to say that I was born in a U.S. territory. No one can ever guess where I was born when I say I was born in one, all they can come up with is Guam.”

      Hmm, from the looks of you, I would have guessed Arizona Territory…

        • Gary Olson says

          And speaking (OK…writing) of my video snipet, I hope Otis will not mind me sharing part of the email he sent to me.

          Otis said, “Gary, in your latest dune video – you were the Dude, El Duderino, absolutely nailed it. Better than Jeff Bridges. I did have you pegged as Walter when I first started reading your posts (sometimes I expected you to talk about your hotshot buddies the way Walter talked about ‘nam), but the Dude suits you better.”

          https://youtu.be/hsYWuKR49Fk

          And I say – Otis was correct in assuming I would be far more like Walter Sobchak than the the Dude, especially 3 years ago when this blog first started.

          But I have been working hard at changing and becoming more like “His Dudeness … Duder … or El Duderino, if, you know, you’re not into the whole brevity thing” because well…Mr. Sobchak IS wrapped a little to tight.

          And so was I for most of my career, so I am EVOLVING (.”is this a…What day is this?”) Which is why I was SO excited when I saw the first part of that video…I think I am making some real progress and I am very happy Otis sees it as well.

          There just isn’t much I really care about any more…but FYI, I do still care about what happened to our crew on the Yarnell Hill Fire.

          In the meantime, just as Bob did…I must bid you adieu because the shifting sands in the dunes are once again whispering my name…and I must go. Ciao!

  24. WantsToKnowTheTruth says

    NOTE: Bringing this comment up from down below because… well…
    because it deserves to be its own ‘parent’ comment and not get ‘lost in the weeds’…

    On August 16, 2016 at 7:52 am, rocksteady said…

    Us Canuckians to the North DO NOT PACK shelters…..

    Therefore, we do not need to run from fires, as we practice situational awareness and avoidance of potential fire entrapment situations.

    When you feel vulnerable to start with, NO “Ultimate Survival Shelter” on your hip, you learn where not to be when fires get snappy…

    In the world of climate change, the way to fight wildfires is to “BACK OFF AND BURN OFF”….

    That is my own personal mantra… I would not say its copyrighted, but pretty close.

    Safety is number 1 in Canada…

    It is blatantly explained to the general public that the WFF WILL NOT go into situations to protect structures, that what fire departments do…. We will not risk the lives of our unprotected workers (NOMEX, not SCBA) to save your possessions and structures… Hope you got insurance…. And none of us are willing to die to save some crappy frigging trees….

    Its actually a pretty easy system to follow…

    • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

      Rocksteady said…

      ————————————————————–
      Safety is number 1 in Canada…

      It is blatantly explained to the general public that the WFF WILL NOT go into situations to protect structures, that what fire departments do…. We will not risk the lives of our unprotected workers (NOMEX, not SCBA) to save your possessions and structures.
      —————————————————————

      And just a few months ago… the head grand-poobah-mucky-muck of THIS country’s WILDLAND Firefighting Industry ‘blatantly’ said the EXACT OPPOSITE…

      Article Title: Forest Service Chief vows to protect COMMUNITIES “no matter what”
      Published: April 28, 2016
      http://wildfiretoday.com/2016/04/28/forest-service-chief-vows-to-protect-communities-no-matter-what-the-budget/

      —————————————————————-
      Tom Tidwell, Chief of the U.S. Forest Service, discussed the 2016 wildfire season in two venues recently. Earlier this month he testified before the Senate Appropriations Committee, and on Wednesday he talked with the Associated Press while he was in Denver for a conference about forest health.

      Tidwell said ( when he was testifying to the Senate Appropriations Committee )…

      “…we will CONTINUE to carry out our responsibilities on the ground to be able to PROTECT THE COMMUNITIES… no matter what the budget.”
      —————————————————————-

      How did Gary Olson put it?

      “Acceptable Losses”?

      But ‘Ssssssssshhhhhhhhh’.!. don’t tell the ‘kids’ signing on for this part-time work there is any such thing and that we are EXPECTING such ‘losses’ to ‘fulfill the mission’.

      We need to keep the “butts in the seats”.

      • Bob Powers says

        Protecting Communities is not fighting House Fires.

        Burn outs and fuel breaks ahead of the Fire is Protecting communities.

        Example The Pioneer Fire Idaho last week the FS Boise NF.
        24 Hours ahead of the Fire did two back burns/Burnouts in stages to Protect the Town of Lowman Idaho. It worked and the town was totally saved. That is what can be done when there is time.

        In California the Fire north of Sacramento there was no time to do that the fire went right into town, City County and State Fire departments attacked where they could and put out house fires where they could. That’s the other end of ICS where different departments Carrie out their individual responsibilities.

        There are no acceptable losses in wild land fire. There are no Federal Directives mandating such management or suppression tactics.

        GONE FISHING AND HORSE RIDDING SEE YA NEXT WEEK.

          • rocksteady says

            I also forgot to add that in Canada, to the best of my knowledge, we do not have hybrid structural/wildland crews…

    • Joy A. Collura says

      I have a question-

      Damin Anthony Pashilk.

      where is he at right now- I have some surgeries due but I want to interview him personally- if not him- his wife Jennie. I am serious. Who is his attorney? If his attorney gets hash tagged to this comment; I have never been more serious in my entire life; call me. (480) 280-5813. I never would ever visit a person in the system aka prison but I have to see his take on this for myself- I have to be point blank blunt and that I am not on board to believe what is being fed in the media just because it was written or reported– I want to hear his take on it- and has YCSO picked up their phone and got involved and tried to interview this man for their investigation of Tenderfoot fire?

      Wow.
      Shaking my head.

      • Joy A. Collura says

        recent wildfire victims- be mindful on your anger on this fella and the current vent- until further details surface and you get to HEAR this fella…his side…

        and I hope those “missing elements” see this latest report…

        “shaking my head”

    • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

      Reply to Muzzy post on August 16, 2016 at 5:47 pm

      >> Muzzy said…
      >>
      >> The man arrested for starting the Clayton Fire was an inmate FF.

      http://www.nbcbayarea.com/news/local/Great-Guy-Damin-Pashilk-Suspected-Arsonist-Arrested-for-Starting-Clayton-Fire-Cal-Fire-390341221.html

      Thanks for the ‘heads up’.

      It’s a little suspicious that while they were so EAGER to ‘announce’ they had ‘caught him’ ( to the cheers and applause of a gathered crowd )… they ( the authorities ) are also REFUSING to even say what makes them even THINK he is the one responsible… or what ‘evidence’ and/or ‘testimony’ actually LED to this ‘arrest’.

      I can see them withholding SOME details they might know about the fire ignitions themselves that might ‘tie’ this individual to those ‘ignitions’… ( since that is the sort ‘knowledge’ that belongs to a ‘crime scene’ and the prosecutors always want to withhold from potential suspects )… but it’s weird that they will say NOTHING about what might have LED them to this person in the first place.

      Testimony from some ‘witness’ that they don’t want to disclose to the media ( yet )?

      • Muzzy says

        He is scheduled for arraignment today; the indictment will contain some details. He’s being held on $5MM bond. Neither the person listed as his lawyer nor the woman who answered his home phone would speak to the media. They’ve been following him for a year, so there are likely to be other fires involved.

        • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

          Pretty good article about today’s ‘arraignment’…

          Some details emerging… and it’s actually not looking too good for this guy.

          Surveillance videos placed his vehicle at multiple ( prior ) ignitions.. then they apparently got a ‘court order’ to install some kind of secret GPS tracking device on his vehicle ( yes… this can happen folks ).

          Now GPS data actually places that same vehicle at the scene ( and in the same timeframe ) as OTHER ‘ignitions’.

          http://www.latimes.com/local/lanow/la-me-alleged-arsonist-arraigned-20160817-snap-story.html

  25. Bob powers says

    Gary your answer Federal Employees have a Union and have had one since 1969.
    There is still the same NAFE Union no the can not Strike.
    They can bargain.

    The union in the 1970’s got us time and a half, Hazard Pay and Sunday Differential.
    I was part of that Bargaining unit in California. We went national and won.

    That union is still active today. Not as big or as well covered as it should be which is to bad.

    • Bob Powers says

      Woops that’s NFFE National Federation of Federal Employees.

      They are a fairly large organization in California and can insert themselves into the discussion on Safety and Fatalities on Forests where they have Active Locals.

    • Gary Olson says

      NO…they don’t have collective bargaining rights just as I said Bob. As usual you are short on facts and long on personal opinion, which is usually wrong except when it comes to fire line issues, which you should stick to by the way because you look a lot less foolish when you only opine on things you DO know about.

      Here is a quick run down on what collective bargaining rights are Bob. “A collective bargaining agreement is the ultimate goal of the collective bargaining process. Typically, the agreement establishes wages, hours, promotions, benefits, and other employment terms as well as procedures for handling disputes arising under it.”

      All of that stuff is set by the U.S. Congress and signed off on by law by the President. It is called the Civil Service Protection Act and associated laws, rules and regulations.

      Unless you were trying to fool everyone that by saying they can “bargain”, that have collective bargaining rights, which can only exist if the demands are backed up by the power to strike. Why don’t you check with all of the PATCO union members and ask them how that worked out for them? Oh…that’s right, you can’t. They were all FIRED by Ronald Reagan because their work demands were not met and they went on strike and the union was destroyed.

      What you and your former union colleagues had and they continue to have…is “collective bitching” backed up by the threat that they will bitch some more if they demands aren’t met. They are not a union in the true sense of the word Bob, just like I said.

      The organization you mentioned is an embarrassment to real unions and a disgrace to all of the men and women who had their heads busted open and were murdered by thugs hired by the rich and powerful to keep the working masses in their place.

      Gee…I think I am EVOLVING…morphing into a….OMG, SOCIALIST, which is a step up from a progressive. I sure hope I don’t become the “C” word, we know THAT doesn’t work.

      • Bob Powers says

        They can Bargain For Work Safety and Stuarts can take work issues and appeals to the Forest and Region. I said they could not strike but then you never belonged to one so I expect you Know little to nothing about Government Unions.

        I sat down with 6 others and set up some Bargained rights with The Angeles NF at the SO with the Supervisor and The personnel Officer after we were awarded a Local with close to 200 members.

        So getting Time and a Half and Hazard pay was a Embarrassment to who?

        Or the Fair Labor Standard Act. NFFE was and is a great Government Union.
        Check it out instead of going off the wall. Who do you think went to Congress and got all of that passed the Union.
        Of course you were still a PUNK KID who reaped the rewards of others. Law enforcement and Fire Fighter Retirement was another hard fought Union Law that Congress Passed. You never paid for that either just took it for granite right.

        HAY GARY YOU CAN KISS MY ASS

  26. WantsToKnowTheTruth says

    **
    ** JUSTIN BEEBE’S FATHER SAYS…
    **
    ** “HE WANTED TO BE REMEMBERED FOR SAVING HOUSES”

    Not a lot of new details emerging regarding the Saturday death of first-year Lolo Hotshot Justin Beebe… but his family members have been doing a bunch of ‘interviews’.

    Beyond the regular “He died doing what he loved” quotes… there is this ( from Justin’s FATHER )…

    NBC-5 – Westminster, Vermont
    Article Title: Family of fallen firefighter speaks about his legacy
    Published 7:07 PM EDT Aug 15, 2016 – By Helena Battipaglia
    http://www.wptz.com/news/family-of-fallen-firefighter-speaks-about-his-legacy/41217496

    From that article…
    ———————————————————————————–
    “It was about saving houses and saving people’s lives and saving property,” Justin’s dad Sheldon Beebe said. “That’s what he wanted to be remembered for.”
    ———————————————————————————–

    • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

      Just to be clear… the ‘Lolo Hotshots’ organization was/is a Type 1 Interagency WILDLAND firefighting organization.

      It was NOT a ‘Structural Firefighting’ organization.

      • Gary Olson says

        Yes, and from the LoLo National Forest…a U.S. Forest Service crew. The cancer called ICS has metastasized into the liver. I think it might be too late to save the patient.

        • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

          Reply to Gary Olson post on August 15, 2016 at 7:46 pm

          >> Gary Olson said…
          >>
          >> Yes, and from the LoLo National Forest…a U.S. Forest Service
          >> crew. The cancer called ICS has metastasized into the liver.
          >> I think it might be too late to save the patient.

          It would seem so.

          And speaking of “too late to save the patient”…

          The official ( and legally required ) ’24-hour report’ regarding 26 year old Justin Beebe’s death is now ‘online’ at the ‘Wildland Lessons Learned’ Center.

          It took them a fucking HOUR and a HALF to get the poor ‘injured’ ( not dead yet ) kid any real medical attention.

          Justin Beebe struck by a tree at 1600 ( 4:00 PM )
          Justin Beebe was ‘Injured’ and NOT killed instantly.
          Justin Beebe finally reaches Helibase at 1730 ( 5:30 PM )
          Justin Beebe pronounced DEAD by a local Doctor: 1746 ( 5:46 PM ).

          This may turn out like the other recent tree-strike fatality where the poor kid ‘bled out’ before they got him any real medical attention.

          ** LESSONS LEARNED CENTER

          ( Actually… it might be time to RENAME this USFS gizmo to the
          “Lessons NOT Learned Center” )

          Strawberry Fire Tree Strike Fatality ( 2016 )
          http://www.wildfirelessons.net/orphans/viewincident?DocumentKey=b8c4e15c-4c37-40c5-bbd8-41f95b6e750c

          ** 24 Hour Report…

          http://www.wildfirelessons.net/HigherLogic/System/DownloadDocumentFile.ashx?DocumentFileKey=fcd0feb4-ca3d-c82d-5356-ac967599dd99&forceDialog=0

          Complete contents of the 24-Hour report…
          —————————————————————————–
          United States Department of the Interior
          NATIONAL PARK SERVICE
          100 Great Basin National Park
          Baker, Nevada 8931

          08/14/2016

          MEMORANDUM

          To: Laura Joss, Pacific West Regional Director
          From: Steve Mietz, Superintendent, Great Basin National Park
          CC: Bill Kaage, Dan Buckley, Matt Johnson, Martha Lee, Robin Wills, Susan Stewart,
          Ralph Rau, Larry Stewart, Shane Greer
          Subject: 24 – Hour Preliminary Report – Strawberry Fire

          THE FOLLOWING INFORMATION IS PRELIMINARY
          AND SUBJECT TO CHANGE

          Location: Great Basin National Park
          Date of Occurrence: August 13, 2016
          Time of Occurrence: approximately 1600 hours
          Local Agency Administrator: Steve Mietz
          Activity: Fireline Operations
          Number of Fatalities: 1
          Property Damage: None

          Narrative:

          At approximately 1600 hours ( 4:00 PM ), a Lolo Interagency Hotshot crew member was hit by a falling tree, sustaining critical injuries.

          Line EMTs and paramedics assigned to the division responded and a short haul capable helicopter was launched.

          A short-haul extraction was initiated at 1730 ( 5:30 PM ) and the injured firefighter was transported to helibase.

          Life Flight paramedics, in consultation with a physician in Ely, declared the firefighter deceased at 1746 ( 5:46 PM ).

          A Coordinated Response Protocol (CRP) Team and Learning Review Team (LRT) has been mobilized and will receive an in-briefing and delegation of authority at 1800 hours today.

          Steve Mietz
          Superintendent, Great Basin National Park

          —————————————————————————–

          ** More CRaP on the way…

          Unfortunately… I mean that literally.

          Despite the fact that the ‘accident’ took place on a fire that was on NPS land, and was being jointly managed by BLM, NPS… they have both ‘delegated authority’ for the fatality investigation over to the US Forestry Service.

          BLM and NPS still use the “Serious Accident Investigation Protocol” for investigating fatalities… but US Forestry did away with the SAIT following Yarnell and THEY now default to using Ivan Pupulidy’s and John Phipp’s new “Coordinated Response ( Accident ) Protocol” ( CRaP ).

          So if the PARENTS of Justin Beebe REALLY want to know the TRUTH about HOW and WHY they have suddenly and tragically lost their 26 year old son… someone should tell them they might as well just go ahead and hire their own ‘private detectives’ right now and let them start their OWN ‘investigation’ right away.

          • rocksteady says

            I don’t think that you can blame the father for his comments….

            As it was the kids first year as a hotshot, maybe he was disillusioned as to what a hotshot really does, and passed that error onto his father..

            • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

              Reply to rocksteady post on August 16, 2016 at 7:41 am

              >> rocksteady said…
              >>
              >> I don’t think that you can blame the father for
              >> his comments….
              >>
              >> As it was the kids first year as a hotshot, maybe
              >> he was disillusioned as to what a hotshot really
              >> does, and passed that error onto his father..

              And you don’t see THAT as an ‘issue’… at all?

              That people ( young men and women ) might be ‘signing on’ for the JOB without the faintest fucking idea what the job is really SUPPOSED to be… and that it’s not meant to be simply what they WANT it to be?

              Sorry… if that is the case… I ( personally ) see that as a PROBLEM that needs to be corrected.

              Take the JOB if you really want to… but not because you think it’s something that it is NOT.

              With regards to Justin Beebe’s father’s comment… OTHER family members are NOT saying the same thing.

              OTHER family members have been quoted as saying that THEY were sure Justin Beebe just wanted to be a ‘Paramedic’ ( just like GM Hotshot Grant Mckee… who was also working his ‘first season’ with that Hotshot crew when he died on the floor of that blind box canyon, June 30, 2013 ).

              So… like so many others… it seems possible that Justin Beebe did NOT “die doing what he wanted to do”… he was only DOING ‘that’ job because he thought it might GET him to what he REALLY “wanted to be doing”.

              • Bob powers says

                We all did that WTKTT. You gotta go thru the jobs to get to where you want to be.

                I know a hundred kids the put their self’s thru Collage on HS Crews. Some were in Forestry others were not.

                On the LOLO he learned right away he was not going to be saving homes. its mountains and Trees………

              • Rocksteady says

                WTKTT…

                Pull in your frigging horns… I never said it was not a problem… I said the kid may have had unrealistic visions and expectations as to what a hotshot was in his mind…

          • Bob Powers says

            In the Condition and location of the Injured One and a Half hours to get him out was not bad. this is wilderness not down town 15 Min. response. Looks like they got an EMT to him fast but what they had to then do to get him out is a different story. I doubt there was any Med Helicopter on Scene even one that could pull him out of the Timber.

            This is a Farley simple investigation and it happens more than it should.
            Falling trees and Rolling Rocks are a natural Hazard. Burning tops of snags can fall in any direction can also fall while a tree is being cut.

            What are you expecting in this investigation it is not a complex thing.

            A falling tree and one person in the wrong place at the wrong time.
            I think the how and why will be released.

            • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

              Reply to Bob Powers post on August 16, 2016 at 7:50 am

              >> Bob Powers said…
              >>
              >> In the Condition and location of the Injured One
              >> and a Half hours to get him out was not bad.

              Really?

              Did I miss an ‘article’ appearing somewhere that actually DESCRIBES the exact ‘Conditions’ and/or the exact ‘Location’ of this latest fatality… or the exact ‘distances’ involved… or the exact readiness of any/all resources to then handle this ‘Incident within an Incident’?

              If I did ( miss that article and/or report )… please provide a link.

              There is still a LOT we DO NOT KNOW about exactly HOW this all went down.

              >> Bob Powers also said…
              >>
              >> Looks like they got an EMT to him fast but what they
              >> had to then do to get him out is a different story.
              >> I doubt there was any Med Helicopter on Scene
              >> even one that could pull him out of the Timber.

              Ah… okay… so I guess I didn’t ‘miss an article’.

              You are right… there are many DOUBTS left here and too much that is NOT KNOWN ( yet ) to say things like “ONE AND A HALF HOURS to get him out was ‘not bad'”.

              >> Bob Powers also said…
              >>
              >> This is a Farley simple investigation and it happens
              >> more than it should.

              I don’t think we know NEAR enough to say “this can/will be a simple investigation”.

              1. Was the fire ‘transitioning’? I doubt they lost 90 percent of the overhead overnight like the Cedar Creek fire did just before the Navajo Hotshots almost died… but what was the actual ‘management’ status at the time THIS fatality took place?

              2. Is this another case where OTHER ‘Units’ had ( perhaps ) already REFUSED a ‘mop up’ assignment in that area… and ( perhaps ) management just kept ‘asking around’ until they found a Unit stupid enough to take the assignment? ( It’s happened before… and also resulted in fatalities ).

              3. What WAS the ‘assessment’ of the area? Should a ‘Faller’ team have been sent in first?… OR ( perhaps )… is that what was actually happening and that is how Justin Beebe died? His family says he worked as a LOGGER prior to doing anything with ‘Wildland Fire Fighting’. So it stands to reason Justin ‘sailed’ through the WFF chainsaw