Please begin Yarnell Hill Fire Chapter XXV here


Chapter I, Chapter II, Chapter II supplement, Chapter III, Chapter IV, Chapter V, Chapter VI, Chapter VII, Chapter VIII , Chapter IX,  Chapter X, Chapter XI, Chapter XII , Chapter XIII, Chapter XIV,  Chapter XV,  Chapter XVI, Chapter XVII, Chapter XVIII, Chapter XIX, Chapter XX, Chapter XXI, Chapter XXII, Chapter XXIII and Chapter XXIV.


© Copyright 2017 John Dougherty, All rights Reserved. Written For: Investigative MEDIA


  1. Robert the Second says

    The AZ Supreme Court denied Ms. McKee a review of her YH Fire lawsuit.

    Supreme Court
    PHOENIX, ARIZONA 85007-3231
    TELEPHONE: (602) 452-3396
    May 15, 2017

    Arizona Supreme Court No. CV-17-0045-PR
    Court of Appeals, Division One No. 1 CA-CV 15-0800
    Maricopa County Superior Court Nos. CV2014-009068,
    CV2014-009069, and CV2014-009070

    The following action was taken by the Supreme Court of the State of Arizona on May 15, 2017, in regard to the above-referenced cause:

    ORDERED: Petition for Review = DENIED.

    Justice Gould did not participate in the determination of this matter.
    Janet Johnson, Clerk

    David L Abney
    Brock J Heathcotte
    Daniel P Schaack
    Michael L Parrish
    Amy M Wood

    • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

      Reply to Robert the Second ( RTS ) post on May 20, 2017 at 9:50 am

      >> RTS said…
      >> The AZ Supreme Court denied Ms. McKee a review of her YH Fire lawsuit.

      Thank you for the ‘heads up’ on that.

      I have always believed that if you are looking for any actual ‘bravery’ with regards to the Yarnell Hill Fire tragedy and its aftermath… you need not look any farther than Marcia McKee.

      I hope she continues to fight for finding out the TRUTH about why she needlessly lost her only son and her best friend on June 30, 2013.

      As for this most recent development…

      At least they ( the Arizona supreme court ) acknowledged the fact that ( now ) supreme court justice Andrew Gould was one of the judges on the appeals court who ruled against Marcia McKee’s original appeal, and they ( apparently ) cut him out of the loop on THIS decision ( as they should ).

      That means the ‘decision’ came down to just 6 others.

      Scott Bales, John Pelander, Ann Timmer, Robert Brutinel, Clint Bolick, John Lopez IV.

      Obviously it wasn’t a 3/3 tie… or the ‘decision’ would have had to default in Marcia Mckee’s favor.

      I wonder what the actual ‘vote count’ was.

      • Joy A Collura says

        I know it has to be difficult to hear news in hopes of resolution Marcia-

        Yet in His time there will be-

        (((R E S O L U T I O N)))

        ….or was it revolution…

        terrible terrible terrible terrible terrible terrible
        news in Manchester- Sorry for the losses there.

        I use to get so offended that a group tied me to any kind of medium who-hoo stuff awhile back and then some lady said take my class on animal communications- it is your path to life and I was like “I know—I am living it”….

        I do not need a class on it but maybe fine tune my thought process.

        The only thing I do which I learned from Dr. Ted Putnam early on was be mindful focused and I began meditation. I have no whoopie-dee-do weirdo crap born as a medium except depth meditation is all I have done alot of this 2017-

        For a goof and only that due to heat temps rising (my thermometer says 104) I have attended class via telepathic…conference call…the ladies all range in age all the way up to almost 70 years old and all professionals of elite areas and wow amazing life histories even one is a kick ass scientist I wish I had that brain of hers. I always use the word “creepy” if I do not know why or how something is happening in my space…like when Sonny’s counselor found her daughter dead on the floor yet her daughter is as alive as I ever seen and I am sharing data only they knew or understood….or the sheriff sends me a link to a thief and I got right on who I felt could identify them and then I got a missing person report and it just keeps rolling…we went to pick up free Craigslist telephone poles and I meet the young man who I have no clue his name just his face as a man stands next to him saying he is Jack and told me things to bring up to him—things only him and Jack knew who ends up being his deceased father— whoah…then I had in meditation a woman and dead 2 yr old and Sonny had a roll in the yard thinking it was recent visitor and yet 2 days later at the library Charla comes in asking about 2yr old Ronnie McGee (I saw it before the event happened)—

        then class came

        “Joy, I want you to read “NAME OF PERSON”‘s pet(s)

        and I replied how can I read- what book should I read to…her pets?.

        I just do not get that whole way of things and if I see stuff I usually rebuke it
        but I have to be straight I have not rebuked fire data…they all laughed as I explained and they said I share my thought process aloud in vocal as well as in writing and its about true isn’t it—I did not have the structure or parental moments others did or even the proper schooling—I mean the variety of early-hood schools I went to were not that great…the name Constitution or such sounds better than to actually attend it- zip code it and access the area; I ain’t kidding. I lived all over Phoenix…so anyways…

        “Joy, read her pet animal(s)”

        and I said “I am blank…is there a system to do this magic moment. I don’t see anything…what am I to do or look for”

        and as I said it I did see and the teacher said “share what you are seeing I know you see something” and I was vulnerable so deeply reminded of how a small group labelled me so I felt stuck to speak what I seen- what if I see something my mind just made up- they convinced me to share and as I did it was like explaining a scene by scene tv episode and the women said to the teacher can I say something and the teacher said ok…”Joy is spot on with every detail- she is gifted “…

        Funny. me? gifted?

        To me a gift for Joy would be a free year of massages or vanity back for I have no clue the lady I see as I pass a mirror here and there…or free fresh produce for a year- those are gifts I would like not this shit. That is for others- I do not know why I always rebuke it but I do know I can connect to alot that others cannot and they have confirmed the data I see is spot on and accurate and consistent. The reason I bring this up. Recently Bill Gabbert went on leave from WILDFIRE TODAY and Jason P. is there and I get updates and in one update I used the data in my meditation and I just want to mark this date because the bleachers tell me this Summer is “it” and I think for the first time I think he is right…I really feel confident now even though I am away from home..helping clear an area and working on a few cases….there is a lady KEELY CHRISTABEL BEAUDRY CULVER who was in news recently as MISSING since 2015 yet I feel she is alive and living away from family and police….I do not think like others say she has to be dead being gone that long…I feel she led an early to life reckless way and she had to escape the area…I think she is lost for her reasons not something bad but if anyone here knows that name let the people know who are searching for her as if she died—let them know she is at least alive….

        Marcia, I again am deeply sorry for your losses and how you were treated after the fire- and I hope one day at least you get to see your seeds flourish—

        Happy Summer All-

  2. Joy A Collura says

    For the bleachers who read this—

    some of the experts who did the interviews on both investigations did not ask the questions you thought would be asked…. I get ya there…

    Some of the entities really do not give a shit about the truth…

    some really wanted to know what are the questions that need to be asked…

    some had no idea where to look for stuff….

    ADOSH was about getting the documents and personnel areas and pay attention to training they had or didn’t have..get all the records…

    so when I finally read your bleacher comment I have to stick up for some of these HUMAN BEINGS assigned to investigate this tragedy…

    what factors were they looking for…

    you see they do not know what you know so it is not like they could ask questions unless they knew what you know…

    there was some predisposed concerns….

    alot of us know the jist so far…why did GMHS take that assignment anyways?

    Noone ever removed the BIAS in this tragedy even to this date-

    None of the people have yet connected to understand the ergonomics of this all…

    In my opinion EVERY person who signed off on a FINAL INVESTIGATION REPORT did the world a great disservice if you felt what you placed out acceptable. I may be offline mainly for 2017 but I want the world to know June and July is going to be very productive months behind the scenes.

    I also want to ask the world if anyone knew about the two year old DEE RONALD MCGEE (Ronnie) found dead over in my area February 10 1942…I am looking for data there— if you have any please call 480.280.5813 or email or a man named “Blackey”…

      • Joy A Collura says

        Diane Lomas says
        MAY 18, 2017 AT 11:33 AM

        Did Marty Cole serve as safety officer for the Yarnell Fire?

        Maybe John Dougherty is detained at the moment Diane to answer you—the answer may be in his article at this link:

        A state dispatcher contacted Marty Cole at 2:24 p.m. and requested that he report to the fire as a safety officer. Cole lives in Chino Valley and faced at least an hourlong drive to reach the incident command center in Peeples Valley.

        As with New Times’ other request of her, Forestry Division public information officer Dennett didn’t respond to e-mails and voicemails requesting information on when Cole and two other safety officers, also requested on the afternoon of June 30, arrived and assumed duties in Yarnell.

        Safety officers are principal advisers to incident commanders in fire-management operations.

        Among safety officers’ primary concerns are extreme fire behavior, escape routes, and safe zones — the exact issues that Granite Mountain discussed but operational chiefs ignored or misunderstood.

        It’s vital to note that a safety officer has authority to override chain of command when an immediate threat to life or risk of serious injury is evident.

        • says

          Reply to Joy about safety officers on the Yarnell Hill Fire,

          So apparently there were about three safety officers including Marty Cole that arrived at the fire on the afternoon of June 30,2013. The reason I inquired about Marty Cole is because with what I was reading it sounded like there was a lack of safety officers on this fire.

          Maybe these officers arrived in the midst of the chaos and didn’t have an opportunity to get ahead of events of that day to be effective?

            • says

              If evidence is produced that that Yarnell Hill Fire was accelerated by artificial means after the initial lightning strike what could be the consequences?

          • says


            Thank you for the link to the article that John Dougherty wrote regarding safety officers on the Yarnell Hill Fire–it did answer my questions and I thought it was an informative article.

            It appears that there were no safety officers on the fire prior to at least 2 pm when things were chaotic.

            The article noted that IF a safety officer had been present earlier they could have requested that when Marsh stated they were moving from the ridge Marsh could have been requested to provide more information and thus the crew may have been stopped from moving off the ridge.

            Interesting statement from Campbell in this article–“they (Granite Mountain) knew the rules were against them when they were going downhill in the green but rules don’t always stop hotshots from attempting to accomplish a mission. The culture of a hotshot crew is a problem-they aren’t one to hold back. They are braver than they ought to be”.

  3. WantsToKnowTheTruth says

    Reply to rocksteady post on April 21, 2017 at 1:28 pm

    ( Brought up from down below in a thread that was running out of room. )

    >> Rocksteady said…
    >> He ( Air Attack Rory Collins ) suggested ( Lead Plane ‘Bravo 33 ) go
    >> there ( the Yarnell side of the fire ), as an Air Attack has a view
    >> of the fire that the ground forces do not.

    Granted… MOST of the time the ‘conversations’ between the designated ‘Air Attack’ and his/her ‘Lead Plane’ come across sounding like ‘suggestions’…

    …but there are STILL times when the ‘Air Attack’ can/should outright TELL his ‘Lead Plane’ to change the priorities and TELL the ‘Air Support’ under his/her command what to do.

    And that is exactly what happened in Yarnell at 3:50 PM.

    The current/active/designated ‘Air Attack’ ( Rory Collins ) TOLD his ‘Lead Plane’ ( pilot = Thomas French ) to switch priority to the Yarnell side of the fire.

    It was NOT simply a ‘suggestion’.

    Rory Collins told Thomas French ( at exactly 3:50 PM )… “I NEED you to swing down there”.

    That’s as close as you get to an actual ORDER in this confusing pseudo-military style command/control organizational environment.

    Thomas French in ‘Bravo 33’ even SAID ( immediately ) that he was ‘complying’ with that ‘directive’ and was ( immediately ) “headed that way”…

    …but then he did no such thing.

    It took ‘Bravo 33’ another 40 minutes before they even bothered to ‘fly down’ to the Yarnell side to even begin evaluating the situation.

    • says

      Reply to WTKTT’s comment on April 23,2017 at 1:21 pm regarding AA

      Why do you think that AA ignored Rory Collins’ directive to go to the Yarnell side of the fire for an additional 40 minutes after stating that they were basically “on their way” ?

      • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

        Reply to Diane Lomas post on April 24, 2017 at 9:08 am

        >> Diane Lomas said…
        >> Why do you think that AA ignored Rory Collins’ directive to go
        >> to the Yarnell side of the fire for an additional 40 minutes after
        >> stating that they were basically “on their way” ?

        I believe the ‘answer’ is absurdly ( and tragically ) simple.

        I don’t think it had anything to do with any ‘ranchers’ or, indeed, any post-3:50 PM ‘override’ directives that we still may not know about coming from the ground.

        I believe that it all simply had to do with ‘task fixation’.

        Thomas French had been working hard ( as Lead Plane ) guiding retardant drops there on the north side of the fire for some time prior to 3:50 PM.

        He had been ‘laying retardant lines’ in both the Model Creek Road and the Miner’s Camp Road area(s).

        But circa 3:50 PM… he had not ‘completed’ that task to his own satisfaction.

        As the Air-To-Air channel recordings do indicate… he ( himself ) was concerned about a ‘gap’ that still existed between the east end of the retardant line in the Miner’s Camp Road area and the west end of the retardant line in the Model Creek Road area.

        He wanted to ‘connect the dots’ and JOIN those two retardant lines together.

        He was in the process of lining up some drops to do that very thing at 3:50 PM, when Air Attack Rory Collins called on the radio and told hm “We’ve got a heck of a lot of fire headed straight for Yarnell” and Collins then TOLD French he NEEDED to “swing around” and go to the south side of the fire.

        French acknowledged that ‘directive’ at 3:50 PM and said (quote) “We’re headed that way”.

        He received permission from Collins to do one more SEAT drop there on the north end of the fire ( since that is what he was about to do when Collins called on the radio )… and both Collins and French AGREED that both the on-scene and the incoming VLATs should then be immediately put to use on the Yarnell side of the fire.

        But then Air Attack Rory Collins left the Yarnell airspace just 8 minutes later, at 3:58 PM.

        Thomas French then ignored everything he had agreed to with Collins at 3:50, and he proceeded to use ALL the available air tankers in an effort to ‘finish up’ that retardant line project on the north side… even though the wind had already drastically changed and the actual threat on the north side had abated.

        According to the Air-To-Air radio channel recordings… it was only when Thomas French became ‘happy’ with the way those retardant lines came out on the north side that he even bothered to try and head to the Yarnell side of the fire.

        So what I ‘think’ is that the answer is tragically simple.

        Thomas French got ‘anal retentive’ and ‘task fixated’ about that ‘gap’ between his retardant lines on the north side and when Collins left the airspace and he then felt free to do whatever the fuck HE wanted to do… HE decided to use ALL the available tankers just to ‘fill in the gap’ between his two little retardant lines.

        He thought he had the TIME for that kind of ‘task fixation’… and he went right about making HIMSELF happy with how that ‘project’ on the north side looked before ever starting to even turn his attention to the Yarnell side.

        TIME was the ‘enemy’ circa 3:50 PM… but French either didn’t realize that or simply didn’t care.

            • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

              Yes. That is ( and always has been ) possible.

              But there is no ‘evidence’ that is what was going down that afternoon.

              It really does look like the ‘decision’ to ‘stay’ task-fixated on the north end of the fire ( even though the real threat there had abated and the real ’emergency’ was on the opposite end of the fire ) took place inside the ‘Bravo 33’ aircraft itself. Occupants were Thomas French, John Burfiend and trainee Clint Cross.

              French was the actual ‘pilot’… so that plane did nothing unless it was French’s decision or something he was in agreement with.

              • rocksteady says

                Did the original Air Attack know that GMIHS was seeking black ops through unburned fuel to the Boulder Springs bombproof ranch? Did he tell the Air Attack taking over this?

                If its no to either or both, you can not blame the Bravo 33 crew for completing an assignment. All they knew was GMIHS was supposedly in the black hunkering down…. Even with the fire transitioning to the South, if they were not told before hand that Granite was gonna be in there, how would you hold them accountable for not going to the South? From the air it would look like the fire is turning to the South, driven by the Wind, evacs were complete and retardant drops would have done sweet nothing to prevent the homes from burning. Lost Cause.

                • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

                  Reply to rocksteady post on
                  May 4, 2017 at 12:36 pm

                  >> rocksteady asked…
                  >> Did the original Air Attack know that
                  >> GMIHS was seeking black ops through
                  >> unburned fuel to the Boulder Springs
                  >> bombproof ranch?

                  In what timeframe?

                  SIDENOTE: By ‘original Air Attack’ I’m assuming you are referring to Air Attack Rory Collins, who left the Yarnell airspace at 3:58 PM because his pilot was ‘timing out’ on the maximum hours he/she was allowed to fly that day.

                  ADOSH was never allowed to interview Rory Collins.

                  The following SAIT members DID ‘interview’ Collins just 13 days after the tragedy, at 11:00 AM on July 13, 2013…

                  SAIT Co-Lead Jim Karels ( Florida State Forester )
                  SAIT Co-Lead Mike Dudley ( US Forestry employee )
                  SAIT support person Jimmy Rocha
                  SAIT support person Jay Kurth

                  …but in the few ‘notes’ that have ever been published from that SAIT interview there is NOTHING to indicate Air Attack Rory Collins knew that Granite Mountain had ever left the ‘safe black’, or were even ‘planning’ to do any such foolish thing.

                  But that stands to reason… since Air Attack Rory Collins did, in fact, have to leave the Yarnell airspace at 3:58 PM.

                  The SAIT says GM didn’t actually leave the ‘safe black’ until right after Wade Parker’s final photo taken at the ‘rest spot’ location at 4:04 PM. ( 6 minutes AFTER Collins left the Yarnell airspace ).

                  At exactly 3:50:08 PM, OPS1 Todd Abel is heard telling Eric Marsh ( directly )…

                  “Okay… I copy… ah… just keep me updated… ah… ya know… you guys hunker and be safe and then… ah… we’ll get some air support down there ASAP.”

                  SIDENOTE: We still do NOT know what OPS1 Todd Abel’s “Okay, I copy” was about at the start of that audio clip captured by Robert Caldwell. Abel was obviously ‘acknowledging’ some other piece of ‘information’ that Eric Marsh had just given him… but we still don’t know what Marsh had just told Abel at that point. It remains possible that Marsh had, in fact, just informed Abel that he had every intention of bringing GM out of the safe black and down to the Boulder Springs Ranch… and when OPS1 Abel then said “hunker and be safe” he meant “Once you get to that RANCH”. OPS1 Todd Abel testified that he recalls NOTHING about this recorded conversation he obviously had with Eric Marsh at exactly 3:50:08 PM.

                  The 3:50:08 conversation between OPS1 Todd Abel and DIVSA Eric Marsh lasted exactly 12 seconds, and ended at exactly 3:50:20 PM.

                  Exactly 16 seconds later, at 3:50:36 PM, is when we hear Air Attack Rory Collins telling his ‘Lead Plane’ ( pilot = Thomas French ) that there had been a “heck of a wind shift”, and that there was now “a lot of fire headed towards Yarnell” and that they ( Bravo 33 ) should immediately “swing around and take a look at that”.

                  And at exactly 3:50:56 PM… ‘Lead Plane’ pilot Thomas French acknowledged that ‘directive’ from his current ‘Air Attack’ and said “Copy… we’re headed that way”.

                  At no time during that 3:50:36 PM to 3:51:03 radio exchange on the A2A channel between Air Attack Rory Collins and his ‘Lead Plane’ pilot Thomas French is there any mention or discussion of ‘Granite Mountain’.

                  >> rocksteady also asked…
                  >> Did he tell the Air Attack taking over this?

                  See above. There is absolutely nothing on any A2A radio channel recording which shows that Air Attack Rory Collins ever mentioned ‘Granite Mountain’ to his Lead Plane pilot ‘Thomas French’.

                  The closest we get is that during that 3:50:36 PM when Collins told French to switch priority to the Yarnell side of the fire… Collins DID mention Eric Marsh ( indirectly ).

                  Right after French ‘acknowledged’ the ‘directive’ from Collins to head to Yarnell with “Copy… we’re headed that way”… Rory Collins then simply informed French that the person to ‘contact’ once French flew down to that side of the fire was ‘Division Alpha’ ( Eric Marsh )…

                  What Collins actually said to French ( at exactly 3:50:58 PM ) was…

                  “Ground contact out there… ahhh… I was talkin’ to… Alpha”

                  Then French responded/acknowledged by saying…

                  <i""Ground Contact Alpha"

                  But there was no mention of ‘Granite Mountain’ or that there were any ‘Hotshot’ crews working that end of the fire at all.

                  >> rocksteady also said…
                  >> If its no to either or both, you can not blame
                  >> the Bravo 33 crew for completing an assignment.

                  You seem to be equating whether or not ‘Air Support’ was fully aware some Hotshot crew was ‘moving’ to whether or not there was any reason for ‘Air Support’ to feel any sense of ‘importance’ and switch their priority to the Yarnell/Glen Ilah side of the fire.

                  What about the TOWN(S)… and the PEOPLE in them?

                  See above.

                  Air Attack Rory Collins is recorded TELLING his ‘Lead Plane’ to switch focus to the Yarnell / Glen Ilah side of the fire because THAT is where the FIRE was now heading… and he ( Collins ) felt that was certainly a good enough reason ( all by itself ) to give his ‘Lead Plane’ that directive at 3:50:36 PM.

                  >> rocksteady also said…
                  >> All they knew was GMIHS was supposedly
                  >> in the black hunkering down….

                  If by ‘they’… you mean Thomas French, John Burfiend and Clint Cross ( the occupants of aircraft ‘Bravo 33’ )… then it is still a mystery what they did or didn’t know about the status of ‘Granite Mountain’ at any time from 3:50 PM onward.

                  Again… there was NO MENTION of ‘Granite Mountain’ ( or any other Hotshot crew or ground resource ) when Air Attack Rory Collins gave French the ‘directive’ to switch his focus to the Yarnell / Glen Ilah side of the fire.

                  There is also still the ongoing controversy about whether or not ‘Bravo 33’ ever ‘flew down to check on them’.

                  Thomas French and John Burfiend testified that ( at some still-unknown time ) it was THEY who called OPS1 Todd Abel on the Air-To-Ground channel and it was THEY who were asking HIM whether they should do a ‘full stop’ and go ‘check’ on some ‘crew’ they thought they heard was ‘headed to a safety’ zone.

                  They ( French and Burfiend ) testified it was OPS1 Todd Abel ( not Air Attack Rory Collins ) who then informed them that it was just ‘Granite Mountain’… and they were ‘in the safe black’… and so NO… there was NO NEED for them ( French and Burfiend ) to ‘fly down there’ to check on anyone at all.

                  But OPS1 Todd Abel testified it was the exact OPPOSITE.

                  OPS1 Todd Able testified that HE was the one who CALLED ‘Bravo 33’ and ASKED them ‘go check on Granite Mountain’… and then they DID…. and reported back to Abel that GM was, in fact, ‘in the safe black’.

                  So which is it?

                  Did ‘Bravo 33’ ( French, Burfiend and Cross ) ever actually DO that ‘safety check’ on GM that Abel swears they did?

                  We still don’t know.

                  Someone on either side of that ‘testimony’ is ( and always has been ) LYING about what really did ( or didn’t ) happen there.

                  • says


                    Thank you for providing more details about AA’s information and what is known about communication between AA and Granite Mountain.

                    As we seek access to the Air to Ground communications on 6/30/2013 it is helpful to know a little more about that afternoon.

                    I don’t understand how so much of this information is held in private. Initially I thought that criminal charges could be brought against personnel if facts were revealed as to what happened but as I believe you pointed out that may not be the case so how can people withhold facts that will bring clarity to this situation?

                    Lying and protecting reputations is unacceptable.

                  • Robert the Second says


                    You posted: “It remains possible that Marsh had, in fact, just informed Abel that he had every intention of bringing GM out of the safe black and down to the Boulder Springs Ranch… and when OPS1 Abel then said “hunker and be safe” HE MEANT ONCE YOU GET TO THAT RANCH.” (EMPHASIS ADDED) OPS1 Todd Abel testified that he recalls NOTHING about this recorded conversation he obviously had with Eric Marsh at exactly 3:50:08 PM.”

                    I disagree. Abel was telling him/them to “hunker and be safe” right where they were, in the good black.

                    • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

                      Reply to Robert the Second ( RTS ) post
                      on May 6, 2017 at 9:02 pm

                      >> RTS said…
                      >> I disagree. Abel was telling him/them
                      >> to “hunker and be safe” right where
                      >> they were, in the good black.

                      That has always been the most accepted ‘assumption’… but the truth is… we don;t really know that for sure.

                      At exactly 3:50:08 PM, when Robert Caldwell captured only that 12 second long exchange between OPS1 Todd Abel and DIVSA Eric Marsh… you can hear Marsh ‘breathing hard’ as if he was walking along petty fast… and it’s pretty much accepted now that by 3:50 PM, Marsh was, in fact, already ‘scouting ahead’ to the Boulder Springs ranch.

                      If Marsh had left that ‘rest spot’ area circa 3:40 PM, when he learned that Brian Frisby was NOT going to continue on up to the saddle for that ‘face-to-face’ Marsh had requested… then 10 minutes later ( at 3:50 PM ) Marsh was probably almost to ( or already at ) the spot now known as the ‘Descent Point’.

                      Marsh might have actually already began his ‘descent’ into the fuel-filled blind box canyon and that is the explanation for his recorded statement to OPS Abel… “I’m makin’ my way off the top”.

                      So either Marsh really did tell OPS1 Todd Abel exactly what he was doing and exactly what his intentions were ( to bring GM down to the Boulder Springs Ranch ) during the parts of that 3:50 PM exchange, or he did not.

                      If he did NOT tell OPS1 Abel exactly what he was doing at that moment, and exactly what he meant by <"I'm makin' my way off the top"… then Marsh was intentionally LYING to OPS1 Todd Abel during that 3:50 PM radio exchange.

                      It remains possible that Marsh was NOT ‘lying’ during that conversation… and that OPS1 Todd Abel was now informed exactly what the ‘plan’ was… and all we hear Abel telling Marsh was “Okay… I copy ( about the plan )”… and then telling Marsh to ‘hunker and be safe’ once reaching that ranch ‘safety zone’.

                      It remains non-credible that OPS1 Todd Abel doesn’t ‘recall’ that 3:50 PM conversation with Marsh… or any additional details.

                    • says


                      The fact that Todd Abel does not recall the 3:50 pm conversation with Marsh is troubling—-it gives the impression that he (Abel) is not being truthful and is hiding information.

                    • Robert the Second says


                      Hearken back to this post regarding stress, multitasking, and tunnel vision on sight and sound regarding your comment.


                      Here is another link to an article on similar matters regarding memory under stress.


                      I am somewhat ambivalent on what he says regarding this, however, I will say that whenever a Hot Shot Crew Superintendent tells you they are “in good black” you tend to believe them AND you just chock that away in the back of your mind that they are in a safe place, so you can focus on other matters.

                      Marsh, on the other hand, was know to be disingenuous and less than truthful at times.

                    • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

                      Reply to Diane Lomas post on
                      May 15, 2017 at 10:48 am

                      >> Diane Lomas said…
                      >> Just had a thought about litigation—-
                      >> Are air attack and forestry departments
                      >> both subject to litigation?

                      Just about anyone is ‘subject to litigation’.

                      ‘Any dispute’ can end up ‘in litigation’.

                      Even ‘US Forestry’.

                      Example: The reason the ‘Aerial Firefighting Study’ ( AFUE ) was even taking place that day in Yarnell is because US Forestry LOST ‘litigation’ that had been brought against it and a JUDGE ‘ordered’ them to do such a study.

                      US Forestry had ALSO been ordered ( by a JUDGE, in court ) to do an ‘Environmental’ study when it was proven that US Forestry had been dropping retardant for YEARS without having ANY idea what it impact it was having on the environment… or people.

                      So yea… just about anything can be ‘litigated’, at some point.

                      From ‘The Free Dictionary’…
                      Litigation ( noun )

                      An action brought in court to enforce a particular right. The act or process of bringing a lawsuit in and of itself; a judicial contest; any dispute.

                    • says


                      The answer that you provided about litigation for air attack and the Forestry Dept. seemed to apply more to the Forestry Dept than air attack.

                      Does air attack have more latitude with their decisions?

                    • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

                      Reply to Diane Lomas post on
                      May 16, 2017 at 10:18 am

                      >> Diane Lomas said…
                      >> Does air attack have more latitude with
                      >> their decisions?

                      According to the WFFs who have been posting to this discussion ( some of whom have actual ‘Air Attack’ background and experience )… the answer is ‘yes”.

                      ‘Air Attack’ has a GREAT deal of ‘latitude’ with regard to ‘decision making’… including not really ever being REQUIRED to do anything at all with regards to request ‘coming from the ground’.

                      And that probably is as it should be.

                      Only the ‘flyboys’ themselves know what it is ( or is not ) possible to do at any given moment while flying a fire.

                      Ground forces might ‘request’ things all day long… but only the guys/gals in the air know the capabilities of the aircrafts, and whether something can be done ‘safely’.

                • says


                  When you say that “evacs were complete” were you referring to evacuations in Yarnell?

                  My information is that evacuations were not complete in Yarnell leaving most of the town’s residents vulnerable to the approaching fire.

                  • rocksteady says

                    Sorry, I meant to say that the evacs were underway, by another resource assigned to do it, so why would Granite head there to do it? There is video showing the other resource getting people out..

                    • says

                      I am not sure why another resource assigned to Yarnell did not take care of evacuations but by all accounts that I know of it did not go smoothly with the assigned resource and it appears that Granite Mountain was called upon to assist with this.

                    • rocksteady says

                      Diane Lomas says
                      “I am not sure why another resource assigned to Yarnell did not take care of evacuations but by all accounts that I know of it did not go smoothly with the assigned resource and it appears that Granite Mountain was called upon to assist with this.”

                      You are assuming that Granite was asked to do this, however in all of the documentation by Abel et al, they all deny ever asking Granite to do this….

                      SO, we have 2 options:

                      A) Abel et al are lying under oath
                      B) Granite went rogue and paid the price.

                      Someday, maybe someday, the truth about which option really occurred will be known.

                    • says

                      Wasn’t Granite Mountain called to help in the Yarnell area when they were in the black?

                      Asked if they could spare resources by maybe Musser?

                      First time they were asked they declined but later agreed.

                    • Robert the Second says


                      You posted: “Wasn’t Granite Mountain called to help in the Yarnell area when they were in the black?”

                      Yes, Yarnell Structure Protection Specialist Cordes requested them through OPS, OPS then requested them through DVIS A??, and he / they said they were “committed to the black, send BRHS, they’re already there.”

                      WTKTT can cite chapter and verse of the above.

                      “First time they were asked they declined but later agreed.”

                      I agree with the first half (see above) and disagree with the second half.

                      Yes, they declined, however, they did not “later agree,” but instead left without informing and/or advising anyone (OPS, AA, Adjoining Forces, etc.) because of their habit of being disingenuous and coy.

                      Moreover, they had been “discussing our options” for hours that day on the GMHS Crew Net about whether to remain in the black or whether to leave the black and reroute elsewhere, likely the BSR.

                      In other words, they had basically planned on leaving, and as usual, they just didn’t want anyone to know their intentions, what they were doing, where they were going, etc.

        • says

          I could understand AA taking the time to complete one more seat drop that he and Collins agreed to but after that no.
          His supervisor had given him a directive which he acknowledged so until we can obtain more records I think that we will need to agree to disagree on this WTKTT.

          • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

            Diane Lomas says

            Reply to Diane Lomas post on April 26, 2017 at 11:01 am

            >> Diane Lomas said…
            >> I could understand AA taking the time to complete one
            >> more seat drop that he and Collins agreed to but after
            >> that no.

            I agree.

            >> Diane Lomas also said…
            >> His supervisor had given him a directive which he
            >> acknowledged so until we can obtain more records
            >> I think that we will need to agree to disagree on this WTKTT.

            Just to be clear… I was in no way ‘justifying’ what happened by proposing the ‘explanation’ above.

            You asked me WHY I thought there was a 40 minute delay, and based on the available evidence ( including all the Air-To-Air radio channel recordings ) I think the ‘task fixation’ scenario is the most likely ‘explanation’.

            I also believe Rory Collins failed to make it CRYSTAL CLEAR to his ‘Lead Plane’ that the situation had risen to the level of an ’emergency’.

            I think Collins should have said ( over the radio ) something more along the lines of…

            “The wind has shifted drastically, and we’ve now got a heck of a lot of fire headed straight for Yarnell. If there’s any chance of protecting anything down on that end of the fire we have to do it NOW… before we lose the chance. So you NEED to head down there RIGHT NOW. Do you COPY?”

            • rocksteady says

              “The wind has shifted drastically, and we’ve now got a heck of a lot of fire headed straight for Yarnell. If there’s any chance of protecting anything down on that end of the fire we have to do it NOW… before we lose the chance. So you NEED to head down there RIGHT NOW. Do you COPY?”…..

              and he should have added….

              “and I think those Granite boys have left their safe zone and are going black ops to get to the damn ranch, which is bomb proof by the way…”……

              • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

                Reply to rocksteady post on
                May 4, 2017 at 12:38 pm

                >> rocksteady said…
                >> and he should have added….
                >> “and I think those Granite boys have left their
                >> safe zone and are going black ops to get to
                >> the damn ranch, which is bomb proof by the way…”……

                The SAIT says that Granite Mountian ‘Gaggled up’ and left the safe black circa 4:04 PM. They were basing that solely on an assumption that Wade Parker took a ‘photo’ at the ‘rest spot’ at 4:04 PM… but that has never actually been the case.

                Yes… Wade Parker’s ( final ) text message to his mother WAS sent at 4:04 PM… but the photograph attached to it was onethat he ( Parker ) actually took 13 minutes earlier, at 3:51 PM.

                It still remains possible that GM had ALREADY ‘gaggled up’ and were ALREADY ‘heading south’ circa 4:04 PM… and Wade Parker simply sent that final ‘text’ to his mother while they were ALREADY ‘hiking south’ and towards the Boulder Springs Ranch.

                But either way… Air Attack Rory Collins really did leave the Yarnell airspace at 3:58 PM, and there is still no indication that Air Atack Rory Collins himself was ever aware that ‘Granite Mountain’ had already ( or even had any plans to ) “leave the safe black”.

                When Air Attack Rory Collins called his ‘Lead Plane’ ( pilot = Thomas French ) at exactly 3:50:36 PM and TOLD him to switch the attention of Air Support to the Yarnell / Glen Ilah side of the fire… it was because that is where the FIRE was now HEADED… and they were going to quickly lose any ‘window of opportunity’ to even try and protect anything down there unless they shifted the focus RIGHT THEN ( at 3:50 PM ).

                According to the Air-To-Air radio channel recordings… Collins’ directive to his ‘Lead Plane’ to switch the focus of Air Support to the Yarnell / Glen Ilah side of the fire had NOTHING to do with ‘Granite Mountain’.

          • says

            Reply to WTKTT’s comment on May 7 ,2017 at 9:02 p.m.:

            Did Marsh tell Todd Able that he was bringing Granite Mountain to Boulder Springs Ranch?

            I think it is more likely that Marsh did tell Able what he was doing and what his intentions were (to being Granite Mountain to Boulder Springs Ranch)

            OPS Able doesnt recall that 3:50 p.m. conversation with Marsh yet Able is heard saying “ok I copy that about the plan” (Hail Mary Plan)

            I think that Able’s statements regarding the 3:50 pm conversation on 6/30/2013 are unbelievable and that he was involved in the planing and execution of “the Hail Mary Plan”

            • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

              The 3:50:08 PM Robert Caldwell recording ( which only lasts for 12 seconds, as far as we know ) BEGINS with DIVSA ( Eric Marsh ) FINISHING a ‘status report’ to OPS1 ( Todd Abel ).

              We do NOT here the ‘full report’ that Marsh was supplying at that time.

              We ONLY hear the LAST SENTENCE of that ‘report’ when Marsh finishes with the sentence “…I’m workin’ my way off the top”.

              That is when Todd Abel replies with just…

              ” Okay… I copy”.

              He does NOT mention a plan… Abut his “I copy” WAS in response to everything Marsh had just reported to him.

              • WantsToKnowTheTruth says


                Since we only hear 12 seconds from that 3:50:08 PM radio conversation between OPS1 Todd Abel and DIVSA Eric Marsh… it may NOT have been just a ‘status report’ coming from Marsh to Abel.

                There is no telling how LONG that ‘conversation’ really was… or what was really fully exchanged between those two men.

                The SAIT actually ‘played’ those 12 seconds out of that full ‘conversation’ for OPS1 Todd Abel when he was interviewed.

                Todd Abel actually ‘confirmed’ that was him talking to Eric Marsh in that 12 second video ( recorded by now-deceased GM Hotshot Robert Caldwell )… but then Abel testified that he absolutely doesn’t recall ever having that conversation with Marsh… or what ELSE they discussed.

                That has always been ( and remains ) non-credible.

      • says

        Just saw news headline about the proposed Rosemont Copper mine in the Santa Rita mountains near Tucson——-

        “US Forest Service is poised to sign one of the two federal permits needed for a giant mile wide open pit copper mine in Arizona”

        • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

          From a study done by the Massachusetts Institute of Technology ( MIT )…

          Environmental Damages of Mining

          Open pit mining

          Open pit mining, where material is excavated from an open pit, is one of the most common forms of mining for strategic minerals. This type of mining is particularly damaging to the environment because strategic minerals are often only available in small concentrations, which increases the amount of ore needed to be mined.

          Environmental hazards are present during every step of the open-pit mining process. Hardrock mining exposes rock that has lain unexposed for geological eras. When crushed, these rocks expose radioactive elements, asbestos-like minerals, and metallic dust. During separation, residual rock slurries, which are mixtures of pulverized rock and liquid, are produced as tailings, toxic and radioactive elements from these liquids can leak into bedrock if not properly contained.

      • Joy A. Collura says

        John doesn’t realize how those countries operate or else he does and has a lot more bravery than I do. I was married to a lady who’s father was a high official in another country and at that time Tito Herra was president of the state of Chihuahua and it was well known that certain parties and drug operations were protected. This situation extends to all Latin American countries. If a mining company pays off the right officials they can operate carte blanche. We listened to your interview John and your looking at that kind if influence you run a high risk being IN those countries and exposing the crony system there. It is not much difference on the 19 and its aftermath. There is a book on a guy…Irish man…that worked against the rubber industry that was into murder and so forth…he exposed a bunch of English influence that gave more importance to profit vs human lives…he eventually got hung…he was hired by the English to investigate their own companies…so be careful John exposing these assholes…we still have Yarnell and the other fires to do. Smiles.
        The above is a statement from Tex Gilligan on Joy’s cell.
        Joy: remember the Peru/Chile/Argentina…alike protected the Nazis…they were the safe haven for the German Nazis.
        A lot of buy offs in the universe.
        You are in our prayers.
        Peru is rough in false arrests….stay safe.

  4. WantsToKnowTheTruth says

    Reply to Diane Lomas post on April 14, 2017 at 3:18 pm

    >> Diane Lomas said…
    >> CELL PHONE Communications on YHF:
    >> I cannot understand why phone records haven’t been obtained from 6/30/2013.

    Some of them were.

    ADOSH obtained the cellphone ‘call records’ for Darrell Willis for the entire year of 2013… up to and including June 30, 2013.

    ADOSH also requested the same records for Eric Marsh… but even though Marsh was being paid a stipend by the City of Prescott for his cellphone and the City of Prescott consequently had every right to request his cellphone records… they refused to do so and told ADOSH that if they wanted Eric Marsh’s cellphone records they would have to get them via his widow… Amanda Marsh.

    There is no other information in the public evidence record about whether ADOSH requested and/or obtained the cellphone records of anyone else… but there IS a document which proves that Jim Karels of the Arizona Forestry SAIT investigation requested not only the ‘call records’… but the actual RTT ( Range To Tower ) packet history for up to 26 different Yarnell-related cellphone numbers.

    See below for a copy of that actual document.

    >> Diane Lomas also said…
    >> Even in the case of cell phones being destroyed in the fire and elsewhere I thought
    >> it was possible to recover the records.

    It is ( and was ).

    The Arizona Counter-Terrorism Information Center ( ACTIC ) was given all the phones that were recovered from the deployment site… except for Eric Marsh’s, which mysteriously ‘disappeared’ from the Coroner’s office after having been removed from his front short pocket at the start of his autopsy.

    They ( ACTIC ) were the ones who recovered most of the ‘data’ from most of the phones. Many of the ‘photographs’ they recovered became part of the public evidence record… but none of the ‘other data’ ( like call histories ) ever did.

    Rest assured… ACTIC doesn’t just ‘scrape’ smartphones just to find ‘pictures’.

    If they are able to recover ‘photos’… then they were also able to ‘recover’ everything else from that phone and that ‘data’ was most assuredly delivered back to Arizona Forestry on the same hard-drive containing the recovered ‘pictures’ and ‘videos’.

    No one seems to know whatever happened to those actual hard drives that were used to contain the full ‘data’ recovered from those smartphones.

    All Jim Karels and Mike Dudley and Randy Okon and the rest of the SAIT ever ‘published’ were whatever photos or videos they ‘chose’ to.

    >> Diane Lomas also said…
    >> Isn’t this accomplished by law enforcement agencies in criminal situations?

    Yes. See above.

    If you ask ACTIC to ‘scrape’ a phone… they give you EVERYTHING ( Call Logs and Call History and Browser Cache/History data included ).

    >> Diane Lomas also said…
    >> How can this information be obtained? FOIAs?

    If you are using a phone that is being paid for with taxpayer dollars… then yes… a ‘Freedom of Information Act’ request can be used to obtain call records.

    This is why the City of Prescott HAD to supply ADOSH with ALL of Darrell Willis’ cellphone records when asked to do so. Darrell Willis was using a ‘company phone’, totally paid for with tax dollars from the City of Prescott.

    For ‘personal phones’… then you have to either be the owner/subscriber to obtain the records… OR part of a legal ‘investigation’ ( and not necessarily just a ‘criminal’ investigation.

    Both the SAIT and ADOSH would have had the ‘authority’ to obtain the call records of pretty much anyone they wanted to… even if it had taken some back-and-forth with some lawyers to get it done.

    >> On April 20, 2017 at 11:00 am, Diane Lomas said…
    >> In videos firefighters can be heard asking for Musser’s cell phone number.

    Yes. In one of the Aaron Hulburd videos filmed right there in the parking lot of the Shrine of St. Joseph… we actually SEE and HEAR newly arrived Safety Officer Tony Sciacca placing a cellphone call to ( apparently ) Arizona Forestry’s Russ Shumate just to ASK Shumate for Paul Musser’s cellphone number.

    The transcript of that part of that video is as follows…

    Video length: 28.512 seconds

    NOTE: As the video starts… Safety Officer Tony Sciacca is out of his truck and walking around right where the pavement of Shrine road ends there at the St. Joseph Shrine parking lot. He has just called someone named ‘Russ’ with his cellphone and he is going to ask ‘Russ’ for Paul Musser’s new cellphone number. This is most likely ‘Russ Shumate’… the ICT4 in Yarnell on Saturday who also knows Paul Musser.

    Safety Officer Tony Sciacca: ( talking on his cellphone )
    Hey Russ… Tony Sciacca… how are ya, brother?
    Hey… I’m lookin’ for Paul Musser’s phone number. I’m in a pinch and I… I had his old number but I don’t have his new number. Do you hav… can you text it to me?
    Please. I really need it bad right ’bout now.

    Safety Officer Tony Sciacca: Thanks. Bye.


    >> Diane Lomas also asked…
    >> Where are these records?
    >> Some of these cell phone conversations must contain vital information about
    >> what was occurring on the fire and may prevent a future disaster.

    Agreed… but if you are talking about ‘conversations’… it is not likely the carriers themselves were ‘recording’ any of the actual ‘conversations’ themselves.

    ( Notice I said “not likely”. These days… who the hell knows ).

    As Edward Snowden has let us all know… the National Security Agency ( NSA ) can ( and DOES ) do that anytime they simply ‘feel’ like doing it… but even though the NSA has plenty of taxpayer dollars ( actual NSA budget is, of course, classified, but in 2013 it was estimated at around $10.8 billion )… and plenty of ‘juice’ ( the NSA facility in Fort Meade, Maryland is the largest single consumer of ‘electricity’ in the entire State of Maryland )… even they still don’t have the ‘disk space’ to be recording every freakin’ cellphone conversation.

    Even THEY only record the ones they simply want/need to.

    If you decide to run for public office… and you end up hiring people to run your campaign who turn out to be unregistered ‘foreign agents’ and/or actively being recruited as Russian spies… then YEA… don’t be surprised ‘down the road’ to discover that at some point some donut-eating tech at NSA was told to ‘throw the switch’ and start ‘recording’ you…

    …but a bunch of firefighters just working some wildfire somewhere?… not likely.


    Just 11 days after the tragedy of June 30, 2013, newly established SAIT Co-Leader Jim Karels sent a FAX request directly to Verizon Wireless asking them to ‘preserve’ the cellular network call/location records ( RTTs ) for 26 different cellphone numbers.

    The actual cellphone numbers listed in the FAX request were all REDACTED in the copy of the FAX request that Arizona Forestry eventually released.

    A copy of this FAX request to Verizon is the second page ( PDF page 2 ) of a document in the public evidence record named…

    “A01-A04 – ASF000001 – INV to 80INV.pdf”

    It is sitting in this Folder in the public evidence record…

    Dropbox / AZ Forestry Division Investigation / Correspondence

    It is the only PDF document in the ‘Correspondence’ Folder that was part of the original Arizona Forestry SAIT investigation records dump.

    Here is a TEXT version of that same document ( including the 26 REDACTED cellphone numbers )…


    To: Verizon Wireless
    From: Jim Karels, SAI Team Leader
    Date: July 11, 2013

    The Arizona State Forester has delegated authority to me to lead a Serious Accident Investigation into the deaths of 19 firefighters on the Yarnell Hill Fire. In that capacity, I am requesting preservation of the RTTs for the following cell phone numbers from 1300 to 1645 ( 1:00 pm to 4:45 pm ) on June 30, 2013.


    If you have questions, you may contact me at 850-228-7763 or Randy Okon at 406-531-1570.

    Thank you for your assistance in this matter.

    Signed: Jim Karels

    The ‘RTTs’ that Jim Karels was asking Verizon to ‘preseve’ are MORE than just the ‘call records’ ( who was talking to who and when ) for a Verizon cellphone.

    RTT stands for ‘Range To Tower’.

    Every time you use your cellphone ( to either call or text ), the ‘Range To Tower’ information is also being ‘recorded’ as part of your call history.

    This RTT ‘history’ can, in fact, be used to LOCATE your exact position at the time you were either making a call or sending a text.

    It has nothing to do with GPS. These ‘Range To Tower’ packets existed before they even started putting actual GPS chips into smartphones, and even with your GPS turned OFF… the RTT information can be used to pinpoint your location.

    So Jim Karels was obviously interested in not only the basic ‘who was talking to who when’ call record information. He was obviously curious whether any of the RTT information for any of the cellphones used by any of the Granite Mountain Hotshots might be able to ‘fill in some blanks’ about exactly where they WERE that afternoon… and WHEN.

    Verizon used to only preserve the full ‘RTT’ information on any particular cellphone number for 7 days… but they changed that prior to 2013 and now preserve that information for ( supposedly ) only 30 days.

    Jim Karels’ FAX request to Verizon was just 11 days after June 30, so the RTTs for all 26 numbers should have been still available.

    There is no document in the SAIT evidence folder which shows any ‘response’ from ‘Verizon’ to this request… of if any of the ‘data’ was ever supplied back to the SAIT.

    • WantsToKnowTheTruth says



      An interesting ( and informative ) document.

      The same RTTs that SAIT Co-Lead Jim Karels was requesting from Verizon for 26 different cellphone numbers would be known as PCMDs on the Sprint network… or simply ‘Activity Logs’ on the T-Mobile network.

      Law and Order – Cellphone Analysis – Part 2

      From that document…
      Historical Tracking

      Cell Site Analysis (CSA) is the science of reconstructing the physical movements of a mobile phone or communication device. The evidence from this advanced investigation can attribute contact between individuals, indicate proximity to a crime scene, define patterns of movement of suspects, and confirm or dispute alibi statements.

      To perform a Cell Site Analysis, you have to understand how cell towers are built and operate.

      Most (but not all) cell towers are three-sided. On each of these sides, there are three panels. The middle panel is the transmitter, while the outer panels are the receivers. The two outside panels “listen” for inbound signals. Something like how our two ears compare slight differences in sound to determine location and direction of movement, these two outside panels do the same. This allows a smooth hand-off from tower to tower when the caller is mobile.

      Each tower has three directional antennas. A directional antenna receives signals with more intensity from the direction it is pointed. It filters this, versus signals it receives from directions outside its field.

      Cell Site Analysis

      The Cell Site Analysis (CSA) starts with a court order or search warrant requesting call detail records with the cell tower that were used doing the call. The CSA, with information from particular tower locations, will tell you what parts of the city you are in but not what street you are on. For most investigations, knowing the handset was in a general area—and could not have been in another area—is enough to confirm or deny an alibi about a date, time, location.

      The CSA will only allow an investigator to state the call was from an area covered by the cell tower, not a single address. That means it is better suited to eliminate alibi locations than to prove the handset was in one specific house or block.

      However, some pretty strong inferences can be made based on the CSA and how towers work. Most towers are divided into three 120-degree sides. (Some are six 60-degree sides.) Depending on the cellular service provider who operates the cell tower, these sectors will be identified as 1,2,3; A,B,C; Alpha, Beta, Gamma for a beam width of 120-degree coverage tower. For a 60-degree coverage tower, combinations of this alpha-numeric will identify which slice of the pie is involved. Each tower has a reception range from less than a mile to 12 miles. Each area covered by the sector can be narrowed to within one-tenth of a mile. Side 1 on AT&T and Verizon towers faces north. This is for the typical tower…exceptions exist.

      If possible, ask for cell tower information within 7 to 15 days. Then ask the service provider to provide the PCMD (Sprint), RTT (Verizon) or Activity Log (T-Mobile). This can put a handset down to a certain distance from the tower.

      For example, the handset was between 6/10 ths and 7/10 ths of a mile from this specific tower within the sector with compass readings of 300 degrees (WNW) and 60 degrees (ENE).

      • Robert the Second says


        Good info and thanks for the lesson.

        According to Wired magazine, the largest (one million square feet) NSA data center is near Bluffdale, Utah.

        And for a “balanced” view, here is the “Domestic Surveillance Directorate “Defending Our Nation. Securing The Citizens,” code-named “Bumblehive.”

        “It is the first Intelligence Community Comprehensive National Cyber-security Initiative (IC CNCI) data center designed to support the Intelligence Community’s efforts to monitor, strengthen and protect the nation. Our Utah “massive data repository” is designed to cope with the vast increases in digital data that have accompanied the rise of the global network.”

        “NSA is the executive agent for the Office of the Director of National Intelligence (ODNI) and is the lead agency at the center.”

        How nice, one of the “3 Big Lies.” Trust me, I work for the Government, and I’m here to help you.

        • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

          Reply to Robert the Second ( RTS ) post on April 21, 2017 at 6:56 pm

          >> RTS said…
          >> According to Wired magazine, the largest (one million square
          >> feet) NSA data center is near Bluffdale, Utah.

          “Our Utah ‘massive data repository’ is designed to cope with the vast increases in digital data that have accompanied the rise of the global network.”

          Well then… I take back what I said up above.

          Maybe they really DO now have the ‘disk capacity’ to record every freakin’ cellphone conversation.

          Again, as Edward Snowden has kindly now let us ALL know, the NSA operates from the perspective that their MANDATE is to COLLECT information… and that no ‘permission’ is needed.

          If it CAN be ‘collected’… then they just go ahead and do it.

          The ANALYSIS of that ‘collected data’ is where they think silly things like LAWS then enter into the picture.

          Your tax dollars at work.

          • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

            The following ‘report’ just appeared.

            It confirms that what Eric Snowden has kindly ( and bravely ) let us ALL know about the MASSIVE surveillance that the NSA is constantly doing DID have some ‘impact’…

            …but only kinda sorta.

            NBC News
            Article Title: NSA Collected Americans’ Phone Records Despite Law Change: DNI Report
            Published: May 2, 2017 – By: Reuters

            WASHINGTON — The U.S. National Security Agency ( NSA ) collected more than 151 million records of Americans’ phone calls last year, even after Congress limited its ability to collect bulk phone records, according to an annual report issued Tuesday by the top U.S. intelligence officer.

            It found that the NSA collected the 151 million records even though it had warrants from the secret Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Court to spy on only 42 terrorism suspects in 2016.

            Officials argued Tuesday that the 151 million records collected last year were relatively few compared with the number collected under procedures that were stopped after former NSA contractor Edward Snowden revealed the surveillance program in 2013.

    • says

      Reply to WTKTT regarding Darrell Willis’ cell phone :

      I understand that Willis’ cell phone, paid for by city of Prescott, was searched for records–could he have possibly had another private cell phone with him that he paid for and which records were not submitted after the fire?

      • says

        Extreme temperature of Yarnell fire:

        “in the case of the Biscuit fire and many other fires, the hottest and most dangerous burns were those set by the firefighters themselves as backburns”

        The Wildfire Reader page 335

        Can anyone explain where backburns were set on the Yarnell fire that could explain how hot this fire was burning?

        • Robert the Second says


          Wildfire Reader author George Wuerthner is the ecological projects director for the Foundation for Deep Ecology, where he does research and writes about environmental issues. For many years he was a full-time freelance photographer and writer and has published thirty-eight books on natural history, conservation history, ecology, and environmental issues.

          He is also a professional photographer and the co-author of Welfare Ranching: The Subsidized Destruction of the American West (Island Press 2002).

          Laudable experience and qualities indeed, however, I see NO wildland fire and/or prescribed burning EXPERIENCE in there. So then, I would discount his claims of “the hottest and most dangerous burns were those set by the firefighters themselves as backburns.” He has no idea what he is talking about.

          First off, there are no such thing as backburns.

          The Biscuit Fire was one of many fires in areas the USFS manged for Spotted Owl habitat, therefore they excluded RX burning and any other form of fuel treatments because of the Endangered Feces Act. This lack of fire resulted in massive dead and down fuel loadings that resulted in explosive and extreme plume dominated fire behavior when they finally burned.

          On the contrary, the hottest and most dangerous burns are NOT those set by the firefighters themselves, but those where the Federal land Management Agencies refuse to do their jobs as land managers and utilize fire as the historical “tool” it has been for thousands of years.

          The Yarnell Fire burnouts were very minor compared to the fire behavior in the natural drought-stressed, massive fuel loadings of decadent chaparral that had not burned in over 48 years.

          Wildfire Reader author George Wuerthner is merely using drama and hyperbole to stimulate his readers.

          • says

            Reply to RTS:

            What is the difference between a back burn and burn out?

            For example, fire chiefs who are hybrid called it back burn on the Tenderfoot fire.

              • Joy A Collura says


                A good piece of data to share to you about the chief on Tenderfoot fire—if you ask him before 2013 what was his earned experiences with actual fires or fighting fires or even training with wildfires or any fires or his fire folk mentors—see what he says—see if it matches up to what I has been God guided and gathered from people who went to school with him …worked with him and EMT trained with him and were buffaloed how he was a chief all of a sudden after YHF without the proper legal posting of the position so other qualified could apply…what happen to that proper route that local FFs were disturbed about to this day on that topic- Never has been answered yet— years later.

                See if it matches up to some of the amazing people who really have spent time and passion dealing with fires and their transparency- and see if they say BACK BURN…probably won’t see it said much from fire industry veterans.

                We all fight fires different. I mean as an example just today in defensible space work Tex puts on his flame thrower and turns it wrong way and blows out flames; big swoosh…no biggie and his spot with no wind burned out fast yet Joy the more reserved avoidable gal gives it a try doing it a tiny right in front of her only spot so she could quickly shovel it out and Tex says something about snake holes and I look his way and not in front of me and this weird crazy high wind took my tiny spot into me taking a shovel and putting it out and so it taught me you can have the seasoned experience like Tex but when he jumps on ya saying “Jesus F’ing Christ”—that seems like poor leadership when he is suppose to be showing me how to help him out yet to know him he was keeping it down and real talk but when I go in saying I am not flame thrower savvy—stay close by and he opts not because I want to burn right in front of me not in a walk sway back and forth way wide experienced way because I want to learn what I am holding first…so patience should be a leaders top priority as well as comprehension we all observe and absorb at different pace and levels…Tex is very experienced when it comes to fighting fires probably much more than some who are currently fighting them but hell he is horrible as a trainee or leadership role and if that same wind happened at his SHWOOSH moment he would feel the desert needed some cleaning up…let it burn…it will burn out…(maybe that’s the new leader ways) Has anyone really looked at all the maps on fires since YHF and thereafter…really PAID ATTENTION to what they place out public on their map to eyewitness and property owners pictures to see real time data versus maps just placed out public…

                Diane- keep reading that book Wildfire Reader as there IS fire industry folks in that book. Stephen Pyne who we hiked is in there and what about page 276/286 Ingalsbee….GO DIANE!!!

                You should read and jot down corresponding cross references to any and all items and statistics you feel particularly noteworthy and drawn to— than your references catalog then becomes YOUR expertise which you can utilize to bolster the GEM YOU ARE FOR YOUR PARTICIPATION THIS LONG and continue to ask the questions becomes then you become de facto an EXPERT in your own right- Secondly chapter 24 covered alot and any questions you have an are ensure if it has been asked already— GO TO EACH CHAPTER and click CTRL and F and the search box pops up and write in your inquiry words and it will share if we discussed it already-

                December 1st 2016 marked for me the most important fire data I learned thus far…and as people come here PLEASE QUESTION after all a fire that died down quite a bit….June 28 to 29 2013 really watch the fire…around noon when Fernandez shows up in the hovering BLM helicopter on the morning of June 30 2013…look at ADOSH line 1436…A: “I guess the significant thing is the fire stopped moving. Um and by morning there was very little smoke left on it.”
                Take line 890…Q2: “Is,uh, he he did give you a size on it? A. “when he finally found it. He he he had a hard time finding it.” That Shumate answer corresponds to the data of the folks referring to the same size of a Buick…the interview has many incongruencies like the timeline the eyewitness (US Tex and Joy) has as we watched and listened on 6-30-13….Barry Hicks (line 2044, Q2) “How’d they describe it to you?” (line 2046 A: “Um, very little activity until the spot fire, then phenomenal fire behavior uphill, downhill, runs simultaneously.” Line 2049, Q2: “Both directions?”…SOME OF THE MISSING ELEMENTS hinges on “keeping the fire active” when it was not…was this a medieval feast that fed and nurtured such an affair until it just got too hot and too windy…what about the interviews and times we the hikers spent with some from DOC-LEWIS CREW…Why hasn’t Craig Knapp learned the soul of this fire for McKee and the homeowners or the lack of since some remain quiet all these years later—….and why hasn’t he interviewed or spent time early on with some of these willing folks…why wait for a court time—some were willing to do depositions very early on—Has anyone focused to other data that is not ye PUBLIC on fires…YHF…any…and really PAID ATTENTION…answer me this—WHAT HAD BEEN GOING ON JUST PRIOR TO CHANGE OF COMMAND 6-30-13….oh yes the FIRE STOPPED MOVING and LITTLE SMOKE LEFT ON IT…
                Narrow it down to the FINAL TRUE TO LIFE DATA—their testimony—and our own EYEWITNESS accounts and photos of hearing and seeing the explosions and seeing flames….SHUMATE LINE 2046, A: “Um, very little activity until the spot fire then phenomenal fire behavior uphill, downhill runs simultaneously.” Sooooooo here is where the WORLD fails me the eyewitness that to date noone wants to publicly engage or “go there” with timeline logical set of detailed and direct questions and answers…such as HOW BIG was that spot fire Hick should of asked Shumate…and how far did it jump in order to be this ferocious ninja bad ass spot fire…was it an acre in size???? was it 10 acres? did it travel a 100 yards??? or 1000??? was it in an odd straight line or a teardrop in shape?
                YOU SEE WE THE EYEWITNESS WATCHED AND TIMED HOW LONG IT TOOK TO TRAVEL UP THE MOUNTAIN AND GAVE THE WORLD OUR ACCOUNT yet some missing elements still have not…why not those in the industry on that fire when 19 men died….how come when in 1995 3 firefighters died atf jumped in saying that is what they do when firefighters fall…well how about 19 men???? where was atf????

                Diane- this was a commercial request and I enclose what that chief Ben Palm wrote me:

                Fri, Jan 27, 2017 at 5:17 PM


                Here is some information that was asked about from the district.

                Commercial Request:

                1. There has never been a document giving me authority or agreement to access any State Park.

                2. I do not have a document of any type of someone who has been granted “special access”, you might need to take that up with the State Parks.

                3. There was never an agreement between YFD and state park. I do not have any information on state land and state parks. You will have to ask them about this issue.

                4. I am waiting on the board to get my evaluations from board records.
                The Red Card is one paper .25
                The qualifications that are asked for must be specific. Please submit new request.

                5. I do not have paperwork that shows position or role on Memorial Board. State Parks will have that and it might be in minutes.

                6. We do not have any paperwork on use of Hummer. This vehicle is used for official fire duties. It is a command vehicle and the Fire Chief is the only person who uses it. GMC, H3, 2008

                7. I do not know what you mean by film industry accounts with the staff rides. The Fire Chief was on every Staff Ride the state had for 2016. Role calls or lists of names will have to be given by the Department of Forestry and Fire Management.

                8. There is no documentation of presence of Fire Chief on the hill with A.C.E.

                9. The Fire Chief receives a salary of 42,000 per year for all years asked.

                10. There were no Staff Rides for the Film industry that Yarnell Fire was involved with.

                11. The map that was shown to Santos was already given in last request. If an additional paper is needed .25

                The total price for this request will be .50 for two pages.


                Yarnell Fire Department
                Chief Ben Palm

                (928) 671-0553-cell
                (928) 427-6578-office

                PO Box 581
                Yarnell, AZ. 85362

                Diane- I never heard anything further after this email from the chief nor received that foia where he states some fees on some pages and that was in January–So what I can say as much investigating that I have done..the best is yet to come out…and it will….we are reaching the right spots behind the scenes and this blog will be first to hear about it when it does happen…I have not looked at my USDA…forestry….state…blm FOIAS much this 2017 due to getting Tex situated and just never the proper sit down time…
                Sitting where he is now is not organically the right spot to be for me…hoping to dodge death from disease in his new area—
                I shake my head and limit my times…what he has there is aggressive and fighting flies that would win any UFC fight anytime of the year even with the Irish McGregor…a losing battle when a landfill and horse/goat farm and crop farms are within miles…

                Diane- thank you for your participation. I do not know HOW you learned about IM yet it is nice to see outside the fire industry folks involved too….

                All my best to John Dougherty and I am so sorry to hear you were detained recently- home on my anniversary….known each other almost 30 years yet married 24 of them…however cannot explain 2011 to present except you ever watch Twilight Zone?

                  • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

                    As for the Yarnell Fire…

                    The fire went from ‘almost out’ to ‘flaring up’ and ‘escaping’ over the east-flank two-track road at the same time helicopter N14HX was hovering directly over the fire and ‘delivering’ a load of ‘bladder bags’ late Saturday afternoon.

                    Helitack Nate Peck had been ‘dropped off’ out at the old hang-gliding launch pad being used as the ‘helispot’ that day when N14HX first landed there about 11:00 AM Saturday morning.

                    That ‘helispot’ was about 1/4 mile north of the fire location and well clear of the fire itself.

                    Nate Peck left the Helispot and joined the 6 members of the Lewis DOC Crew to help ‘mop up’ the fire during Saturday afternoon.

                    Later that afternoon, when it was decided ( by ICT4 Russ Shumate ) to deliver ‘bladder bags’ to the men rather than use the available N14HX ‘Bambi Bucket’ for water drops, Helitack Nate Peck was still at the fire location along with the Lewis DOC Crew.

                    Helitack Nate Peck ( the one certified to ‘receive’ and ‘unhook’ any Helicopter deliveries ) did NOT return to the Helispot to ‘receive’ the bladder bags.

                    Since Peck was right there at the actual active fire location with the other men, someone ( the N14HX pilot? ) decided the easiest and fastest thing to do was to hover directly over the men where they were already fighting the fire and deliver the bladder bags directly to them.

                    It was while Helicopter N14HX was ‘hovering’ over them and ‘delivering’ the bladder bags that the fire ‘flared up’ and ‘escaped’ over the two-track road and down into the ‘drainages’ on the eastern slope.

                    It remains perfectly possible ( if not highly likely ) that the ‘rotor wash’ from Helicopter N14HX is what actually CAUSED this ‘flare up’ and was the reason the Saturday initial attack on an almost-out fire then became the SECOND ( and eventually tragic ) Yarnell Fire being fought on Sunday.

                    No investigators ever even bothered to interview the PILOT of BLM-contract Helicopter N14HX.

                    We still have no idea WHO the PILOT of Helicopter N14HX was… or whether he/she really had any Wildland Firefighting experience ( or savvy ) at all.

                  • rocksteady says

                    Wildfire is a very dynamic thing… It can go from setting very idle to a active fire with very little change in perceived weather conditions.

                    For example, (these are just hypothetical numbers, not true validated measurements)…

                    Overnight, the air temperature would have been down quite a bit, relative humidity should have been up a bit…

                    Not sure if there was an inversion or not (an inversion is layer of stagnant air that traps air movement from rising upwards (hot air rises). With an inversion, the higher you go the warmer the air is (usually, as you go higher the air gets colder).

                    Once you reach a certain air temperature, you “break the inversion”… This means the stagnant trapped air on the ground starts to rise significantly, at a an accelerated rate as compared to normal day time heating air movement.. Once it breaks, the air rises, drawing in air at the ground level in, causing a fresh supply of oxygen. Once the cycle begins, it is like when you are lighting a woodstove and finally get the chimney to “draft”….

                    Another possibility is just the conditions themselves… The area was drought ridden, with excessive amounts of cured fuels. A fire burning at 80 F, with a wind speed of 2 mph may look fairly benign, however, once that temp hits 90 F with a wind of 6 mph, the characteristics totally change..

                    In my organization we call it “being on the bubble”… temp and RH and wind are not at the point where real fire behaviour is experienced, but change the numbers by a small amount and suddenly you will get very aggressive behaviour, then once convection develops (major column going skyward, sucking in air from all directions, fanning the fire) you can get a convection driven fire which is basically unstoppable. It takes Mother Nature to change the weather conditions to get the fire to slow (temp/rh/wind/time of day etc etc)

                    Experienced fire fighters have seen a fire go from a “piece of crap scrub fire’ (aka Yarnell on the 29th) to a massive beast (Yarnell on the 30th)….

                    That is why it is totally imperative that a FIRE BEHAVIOUR SPECIALIST analyzes the forecasted weather predictions, to create a fire behaviour advisory, showing the potential rates of spread of the fire, intensities, flame heights etc to ensure that fire fighters are kept safe. Then it is imperative that everyone knows about the forecast (morning briefing), THEN EVERYONE ACT ACCORDING TO THE PREDICTION (no going rogue, leaving the black, travelling through unburned fuels, without anyone knowing where you are), then screaming for help, when you are in such deep shit that no resource available on the fire can save your ass for making such a stupid decision, then crawling into a fire shelter cause every other single option to survive has been taken off the board.

                    • says

                      To quote Randall O’Toole:

                      The decline in logging and grazing due to ecological concerns fire has become the new gravy train–

                      money for fire suppression is nearly unlimited but activities to reduce fire hazards like prescribed burning are woefully underfunded”

                      So—if fire is burning out there is limited funding available but if it is increasing in activity more funds and resources can be released to the situation.

                      I am wondering if manipulation through a helicopter hovering low over spot fire or other strategies to increase fire behavior on the yhf as it appeared to be dying down on June 29 could account for the fire getting out of control?

                • says

                  You asked how I learned about IM——
                  I was living in Tucson at the time of the fire and began reading news coverage. Some of the articles that I read referenced IM so I started reading to learn more.
                  I also read other news accounts but have styed with IM.

              • Joy A Collura says

                Your comment is awaiting moderation.

                in case that assumptions falls down or someone says that is AU not USA— here is his email reply:
                Mon, Apr 24, 2017 at 5:37 PM
                h t tps://w ww.g ebhp?sourceid=c hrome-instant&ion=1&e spv=2&ie=U TF-8#q=glossary+firefighting+terms

                have a nice ANZAC day

                David Bowman
                Professor of Environmental Change Biology
                School of Biological Sciences
                The University of Tasmania
                Private Bag 55
                Hobart TAS 7001


                mobile: 042 88 94 500

                Tel (Int): +61 3 6226 1943
                Tel (Aus): 03 6226 1943

                Fax (Int): +61 3 6226 2698
                Fax (Aus): 03 6226 2698

                ht tp://w ww.u

                skyp e davi d.bow man0

                Research ID A-2930-2011

                Honorary Professor
                Archaeology and Natural History
                School of Culture, History and Language
                The Australian National University
                Canberra, ACT 2601

                • Joy A Collura says

                  burnout: a tactic that involves burning the area between an established control line some distance from the fire and the main fire; sometimes called backburn or backfire, but the official term is burnout

                  source: h t tp:// methowvalleynews. co m/2014/ 08/15/a-wildfire-glossary-what-the-firefighters-terms-mean/

            • Robert the Second says


              Backburn is not a proper wildland firefighting term. It’s a term those not practiced and versed in WF have used for a few years now.

              It’s either burning out or backfiring. Burning out is to be done in the normal course of building fireline, burning out the unburned pockets of fuel.

              A back fire usually is a major operational endeavor that may require a lot of resources and always is based on weather and fire conditions and timing.

              We you hear someone using the term ‘backburn’ then you know that they don’t know what they’re talking about.

          • says

            I have been reading about explosives being used in firefighting.

            Wildfire Reader page 264—“most technological ‘advance in fire line construction involves explosives. Devices like ‘blaster cord’ are used to blast still and brush for fire lines especially on very steep and rocky ground”

            The YHF was burning on steep and rocky ground (boulders) etc.
            Do you know if explosives were utilized on this fire?

            • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

              Reply to Diane Lomas post on April 26, 2017 at 11:17 am

              >> Daine Lomas asked…
              >> The YHF was burning on steep and rocky ground (boulders) etc.
              >> Do you know if explosives were utilized on this fire?

              There is absolutely no evidence that any ‘explosives’ were used, at any time, in the 2013 Yarnell Hill Fire firefighting efforts.

                • Robert the Second says


                  It could have been any number of things, found in most rural communities, mostly in residents’ shed:s:

                  Large or small Propane Tanks, especially 5 gallon BBQ ones

                  Dynamite and/or other mining explosives

                  Stored gasoline or any other fuel

                  Old military ordnance, i.e souvenirs

                  Abandoned vehicles with gasoline in the tank still

                  • Joy A Collura says


                    Rts is correct yet in addition I have interviews from both the homeowners to people in the fire industry on that fire who report of an “unknown/unidentifiable” explosion noise 6.30.13 out past Baluco/Whitehead area and the ones in the fire industry can identify the items listed in RTS list but not the noise they heard-

                    as for Sonny the man who cannot hear but certain noises; he heard it—what I heard sounded like gun shots fired than flames- that is all I can say from the mountain tops but Sonny has his way which differs from mine.

                    as I shared to a widow of the GMHS October 2013 via email—I will turn over every spot when it comes to wildfires and how 19 men died 6-30-13— which use to be just YHF and Tenderfoot but now sadly its many more wildfires because anyone who is anyone knows there is more to hear about on the gatlinburg fire that affected people I care about…and in about 10 to 15 years you might just be sitting aside a lake fishing hearing a retired FF nearby as he is drinking and fishing as he cusses to the line that catches zip and you hear him talking to the fallen…or maybe finally someone that was a part in this all will just come here one late night anonymously and open up with no fears or pressures—just lay it out as pure as possible.

                    Hold on to hope Diane that people will eventually open up-

                    • Cheerleader says

                      below content is spoken from the bleachers:

                      ((((((April 27 2017 3:17pm correspondence from bleachers to Woodsman’s “cheerleader”—>))))))

                      Diane thank you for staying here &, WTKTT, thank you for your detailed answer, regarding the Saturday “escape across the two-track” which, according to the ADOSH interview, referenced earlier, in Line1050-1060 turns out to be “sometime in mid-afternoon” and coincides, later with narrative starting at Line 1082, which refer to the “slopover” occurring at the same time as the sling-load of bladder bags are being dropped off… do you think that is before or after 3:30pm… and do you think, the reference to “getting more people up there” might have been before or shortly after the “slopover event”? At any rate, please, drop back a few hours in time to between 11:00am and 12:00noon and revisit the dropbox with the various Dean Fernandez photos and compare ALL those (plus, any Rory Collins shots, you feel might be appopriate) views of the actual fire status… STILL ON THE ORIGIN SIDE of the two-track… pretty clean dirt pathway with seemingly well-defined “burnscar” flank dimensions, right or wrong? Back to the above Line 1082 segment and the Q&A is defining “creep” and the rate-of-creep at some point, prior to “slopover” …with SHUMATE’S reply to the question of “One to two foot?” being, “It was probably less than that because it was on the grass that they were describing to me.” What do you think, either, the “one to two foot” or “probably less” refers to as a rate-of-time, as in the Q2 “(unintelligible)” notation? If we back up to “creep” being “probably less… than one foot per whatever” and assume, we are not dealing with “per second” rates… and return-back-in-time to the Fernandez photos… WHAT IS YOUR DESCRIPTION OF THE FIRE INTENSITY AND ESTIMATE OF UNBURNED FUEL REMAINING ON THE “FIRE” SIDE OF THE TWO-TRACK? From this point in tune/time and “fire activity status”…temps-wind-humidity of that specific time of day and TheCREEP versus TheMEN (how-many-men-against-how-long-and-wide-is-the-two-track-with-what-amount-of-unburned-fuel)… 11:30 tick-tick-tick 3:30pm ??? OK… that is Saturday’s “challenge” of MAN-against-FIRE! Sunday is a WHOLE DIFFERENT STORY and that is where the questions surrounding “both directions” and “two witnesses” and ”mystery man” and the-stage-is-set by starting with Line 1429 (Q2) leading into Line 1436 of SHUMATE’S answer of “I guess the significant thing is the fire finally stopped moving. Um and by morning there was very little smoke left on it.” The primary open question is the *****time frame******* from the above description until the Q&A of “both directions” and “phenomenal fire behavior” (perhaps, best to start with Line 2028) and consider, if you will, the same set of questions as have been postulated for the
                      MAN-against-FIRE “challenge” of Saturday (same men, maybe more men… same approximate time of day and weather… same intensity or lack thereof of fire or not)?

                      Diane, just, needs to politely define the time frame on her explosion inquiry because there would be no items that RTS listed out in the desert areas where the early day explosion noise was noted and heard by many. I would anticipate such noises on his list closer to Glen Ilah and Yarnell later that day on 6.30.13 and already have time stamped and identified those noises and locations and what blew up. I have that already mapped out.

                      Also it is time to locate the “cowboy” who, also, heard an explosion (and try, as best we can, to narrow down his timeline, as well).

                      Diane, Wildfire Reader is good to read yet Bill Gabbert’s page “WildfireToday”… an absolute “treasure-trove” for someone, like myself and others (many-missing-puzzle-pieces).

                      Some have traveled recently to a “fire collaterative meeting” and listened (as well, commented, as appropriate)… all the while, intently observing the various primary participants and even gained key EYEWITNESS to their own fire—who watched, as a pivotal burnout operations not reported on another fire was set, which ran “backwards” in the direction of some land that should of never happened—

                      Diane- h ttp ://quillandfox.c om/main/wp-content/uploads/2013/10/sincerelyty.jpg

                      We appreciate you.

                    • says

                      Reply to explosions and loud noises like gunfire on YHF:
                      I’m reading that:

                      Firefighters may use a “wide arsenal of incendiary devices to ignite burnouts; handheld drip torches,fusees,flares launched by special pistols and mortars,truck mounted flame-throwers ‘terratorches’,helicopters with suspended barrels of diesel fuel and aircraft delivered incendiary bomblets called ‘ping pong balls”.

                      I am wondering how many of these devices may have been used on the Yarnell Hill Fire to increase the fire activity?

                      Wildfire Reader p. 273

                    • says

                      Reply to Bleachers and Cheerleader,

                      Thank you for your encouraging and supportive comments.

                      I enjoy being a part of this blog and discussion.

      • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

        Reply to Diane Lomas post on April 22, 2017 at 10:04 am

        >> Diane Lomas said…
        >> I understand that Willis’ cell phone, paid for by city of Prescott,
        >> was searched for records

        Actually… that is not the case.

        His ‘physical phone’ was never ‘confiscated’ by anyone… nor ‘searched’.

        It was ADOSH that requested his ‘call records’ from the City of Prescott and they, in turn, got Willis’ records from the cell carrier and turned them over to ADOSH.

        Willis willingly turned over some photographs he had taken that Sunday with his ‘smartphone’ to the SAIT investigators… but no one ever actually ‘scraped’ Willis’ physical phone.

        >> Diane Lomas also said…
        >> could he have possibly had another private cell phone with him
        >> that he paid for and which records were not submitted after the fire?

        By all accounts… no.

        Willis appears to have only had the one ‘smartphone’… and he was using that ‘City of Prescott’ supplied ‘smartphone’ as both his business and personal device.

        It was Eric Marsh that has always been rumored to have had TWO cellphones.

        It was Deborah Pfingston herself ( Andrew Ashcraft’s mother ) that first stated ( on this public forum ) that ( paraphrasing ) “Anyone who knew Eric knows that he always had TWO cellphones with him out in the field”.

        It has never been verified whether Eric Marsh really did ( or did not ) have TWO cellphones or whether he had both of them with him in Yarnell.

          • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

            Reply to Diane Lomas post on April 24, 2017 at 9:51 am

            >> Diane Lomas said…
            >> Did ATF participate in the investigation of the deaths
            >> of Granite Mountain?

            As far as I know… no.

            The moment it was discovered that this Federally-certified Type 1 IHC Hotshot crew was not, in fact, ‘owned and operated’ by the Federal Government… all Federal agencies did all they could to ‘distance’ themselves from the ‘investigations’.

            The only ‘exception’ was the obvious ‘insertion’ of Mike Dudley, USDA US Forestry employee, as a Co-Leader of the ‘official’ investigation ( along with all the other Federal employees that were also brought in as subject matter experts, etc. ).

            The only reason the cellphones were submitted to the Arizona Counter-Terrorism Information Center ( ACTIC ) for full analysis is because the only thing the Yavapai County Sheriff’s office had to try and ‘examine’ the phones is this bullshit piece of software called ‘Cellibrite’.

            ‘Cellibrite’ is used by most municipal and state-level law enforcement agencies to ‘scrape’ cellphones and pull all the data off them… but it ONLY works if the device is able to power on and function normally. ‘Cellibrite’ also can’t get around any password protection on the devices… which was necessary for a few of the Granite Mountain cellphones.

            So Yavapai County Sheriff’s office simply asked ACTIC for their technical expertise and ‘equipement’ to help scrape ALL of the recovered cellphones.

            By the way… It’s actually the ATFE now.

            Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives.

          • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

            Daryl Willis was deemed to be ‘cooperating’ with investigators.

            He had already supplied what he said were any ‘pertinent’ photographs from his phone to the SAIT… and the City of Prescott cooperated fully with ADOSH’s request for ALL of his ‘phone call records’ for even the entire month of June, 2013.

            The Yavapai County Sheriff’s Office had already decided there had been no direct ‘foul play’ ( from a law enforcement perspective ) involved in any of the 19 deaths, so there was no active ‘criminal’ investigation.

            Could ADOSH have decided they NEEDED to ‘scrape’ Darrell Willis’ phone and made a request for it? Sure… but the Prescott City Attorney would have probably put up a pretty good fight over that and ADOSH would have had to supply some good PCRTB ( Probable Cause, Reason To Believe ) in order to win that legal fight.

            Darrell Willis was most certainly a ‘suspect’ with regards to who might have given some kind of ‘order’ or ‘directive’ to Granite Mountain that afternoon… and the ADOSH investigators most certainly looked hard and long at that possibility… but there has never been any ‘evidence’ that Willis was actually involved in the actual ‘move’ out of the ‘safe black’ that day.

            • says

              Without scraping his phone how can it be proved that Willis did not order Granite mountain to leave their black (burned) spot to come to Yarnell or influnce AA to stay in Peeples Valley after 2pm on 6/30/2013 to drop retardant?

              • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

                Reply to Diane Lomas post on April 26, 2017 at 3:21 pm

                >> Diane Lomas said…
                >> Without scraping his phone how can it be proved
                >> that Willis did not order Granite mountain to
                >> leave their black (burned) spot to come to Yarnell
                >> or influnce AA to stay in Peeples Valley after 2pm
                >> on 6/30/2013 to drop retardant?

                As in… how do you prove a ‘negative’?

                That’s always hard… but the standard approach is that if there is no evidence that someone ever actually DID something… then it can be assumed they did NOT.

                That’s pretty much the case with Darrell Willis.

                There is ( currently ) no evidence that he did either of those things… and a ‘scrape’ of his phone would probably not supply any more ‘negative evidence’ than his actual phone records.

                There is, of course, always the ‘Air-To-Ground’ radio channel conversations.

                If Willis was ‘talking’ to ‘Bravo 33’ and telling them to do anything… that is where that ‘evidence’ lies.

                But no ‘Air-To-Ground’ radio channel recordings have ( as yet ) surfaced.

                All we have to go on there are the occasional captures of the A2G conversations accidentally recorded in some of the Panebaker Air-Drop videos and in some of the Aaron Hulburd videos.

                In none of those ‘accidental’ A2G conversation captures do we ever hear Willis talking directly to ‘Air Attack’ about anything.

                • says

                  Air to Ground communications—

                  These records have been very difficult to uncover.

                  I am assuming that they could reveal facts about the fire that may incriminate personnel at the fire which could lead to charges but what about the widows who just want the truth so they know wht happened to their loved ones?

                  Is there not a way that the truth can be laid out without criminal charges ensuing?

                  • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

                    I don’t know about there being anything in the ‘Air To Ground’ radio channel recordings that might ‘automatically’ lead to any ‘charges’… but they would most certainly provide the ‘answers’ to many ongoing ‘mysteries’ about what really happened that tragic afternoon.

                    There are MANY reports ( even in the SAIT ) of both Eric Marsh and Jesse Steed themselves actually ‘talking’ to ‘Bravo 33’ ( Thomas French, John Burfiend and Clint Cross ) over the A2G radio channel.

                    But those ‘reports’ ( some of which we still have no idea where they came from ) remain confusing.

                    Example: There is a ‘report’ that at some point, Jesse Steed himself was talking directly to ‘Air Attack Bravo 33’ and telling them ( quote ) “We are headed to a RANCH that we have IN SIGHT”.

                    There has never been any full ‘context’ provided for this ‘reported’ conversations… such as exactly WHEN that happened… and/or whether or not the reason Jesse Steed was ‘informing’ Air Attack about that was also accompanied by some kind of ‘request’ for ‘Air Attack’ to either act as their ‘lookout’ at that time and/or provide any kind of ‘support’ for their risky ‘move’ through that blind box canyon.

                    The only proof we have that this ‘reported’ conversation actually DID take place is the fact that DPS Officer Eric Tarr later ‘testified’ that the REASON he suggested they ‘fly a search line’ in the helicopter towards the Boulder Springs Ranch is because he ( Tarr ) had, in fact, OVERHEARD this ‘conversation’ between Jesse Steed and ‘Bravo 33’… and Eric Tarr DID recall hearing Steed say “We’re headed to a RANCH we have IN SIGHT”.

                    Eric Tarr said he overheard this while he was, in fact, monitoring the ‘Air To Ground’ radio channel that afternoon.

                    The FULL ‘conversation’ that might have taken place at that time would certainly provide more details about what led to the actual tragedy.

                    That’s just ONE example of what a complete recording of all the A2G conversations might reveal about what was really happening that afternoon.

                    There are MANY other ‘mysteries’ that could ALSO be solved via the A2G recordings.

                    • says

                      A2G recordings:

                      Is there a possibility that these recordings may reveal communication between Bravo 33 and Granite Mountain in the hour or so leading up to the deployment that could have included Granite Mountain requesting air support and Bravo 33 not responding due to committments in Peeples Valey after 4 pm on 6/30/2013?

  5. WantsToKnowTheTruth says

    Reply to Diane Lomas post on April 20, 2017 at 4:00 pm

    >> Diane Lomas said…
    >> As I listened to an earlier video where Mike Dudley was speaking
    >> to a group of firefighters about the Yarnell Hill Fire he stated that
    >> in the box canyon where Granite Mountain was trapped they had
    >> fire in back of them and fire in front of them.
    >> Where was the fire in back of them coming from?

    From the same ‘fireline’ that is clearly seen in all of the photos they took at the ‘rest spot’ in the safe black, just before leaving that area.

    That ‘fireline’ eventually spread due south and first ‘flowed’ around the mounds out in the middle bowl known as ‘Big Round Top’ and ‘Little Round Top’, and then ‘flowed’ in two directions

    Due south towards the mouth of the box canyon.
    Due southwest ( and up the slope ) towards the ‘Descent Point’ saddle

    Remember that both ‘fire’ and ‘water’ are similar in that they will both follow the laws of ‘fluid dynamics’. They will both ‘flow’ along the path of ‘least resistance’.

    Watch the following video ( the whole thing ).

    It is a ‘through the looking glass’ style video based on actual raw aerial footage taken by the ABC 15 media helicopter as it was filming over Yarnell from 4:00 PM to 4:50 PM that tragic afternoon.

    The helicopter footage used for the following video was taken in the 4:20 PM timeframe, after the fireline had crossed over Brendan’s ‘lookout mound’ location, and was then ‘flowing’ around those mounds out in the ‘middle bowl’ and heading right at the ‘box canyon’.

    This ‘idea’ that at the moment Granite Mountain realized they were in trouble, they were then immediately seeing fire both ‘ahead’ and ‘behind’ them was first ‘floated’ by Darrell Willis during that initial July 23, 2013 press conference that was held at the deployment site.

    Darrell Willis first put that ‘idea’ out there as just some way to possibly explain WHY Granite Mountain chose to deploy on the floor of the box canyon, rather than make any attempt at all to ‘drop packs and run’ and even TRY to make it back up over the ridge they had just come down from.

    It was in the ‘lead up’ to Willis’ now infamous statement saying that the offical reason all those men burned to death was because it was “God’s plan”.

    Here is exactly what Darrell Willis first said back on July 23, 2013 during that initial press conference at the deployment site…

    Darrell Willis: They had committed to go downhill.

    They were committed to come downhill.

    They… they probably saw the fire in this area and then… ah… were looking for a place because they knew that they had fire on both sides of ’em… they had fire behind ’em… and now they had fire ahead of them… and so at the site that’s fenced behind me they began to do some work… and… ya know… the timeframe is really, really short… that they had to work. Ah… they carved… started cuttin’ out a safety zone with their saws.

    The… the voice of what actually happened… we’ll never know.
    We’re not gonna have that information from them.

    But… uh… I can tell ya that they died with honor.

    That… uh… they stuck together.

    They… uh… nobody cut and run the other direction.
    Nobody tried to get out of the way.
    They all deployed.
    They were a very cohesive team.

    uh… ya can call it an accident… I just say…
    God had a different plan for that crew at this time.


    Oddly enough, though… this is the ONLY time during that press conference that Darrell Willis spouted that ‘official line’ that was emerging back in the ongoing SAIT investigation that Granite Mountain must have chose to ‘deploy’ because they must have simultaneously seen fire ‘ahead’ and ‘behind’ them.

    Later in the same press conference… Willis then only relies on the ‘uphill versus downhill’ rate-of travel argument for the reason why GM decided to ‘deploy’ on the floor of the box canyon.

    He never again says ( with the same certainty ) “They saw fire BEHIND them”.

    Willis ‘drops back’ to only suggesting they MIGHT have.

    ** From the Q/A part of the press conference…

    Even in this question from a reporter, after Willis was specifically asked to EXPLAIN how it was that fire came at them from BOTH directions at the same time… Willis only mentions the fire that was AHEAD of them and coming at them from the mouth of the box canyon.

    And he is now just saying that the reason they didn’t ‘retreat’ was just because of TIME and ‘uphill versus downhill’ travel rate argument and is only now saying IF they ‘saw fire’ behind them… not that they actually DID with the same certainty he has ‘announced’ during the narrative part of the press conference.

    Q: Chief… they came down… I mean it all looks black right now. Is there a way you can tell, you know, did the fire come down there and around here at the same time… or how did this area get engulfed in flames?

    Darrell Willis: The fire behavior… ah… folks have said that it came around here ( points to mouth of canyon ).. and if ya look… uh… if ya look at that… uh… little swale here it’s… it basically would lead you to believe that the fire came up this direction and up these little drainages here.

    Q: And they wouldn’t have been able to get up that way ( points up to the ridge )?

    Willis: No. They couldn’t of… it… ya know… it may have taken ’em… uh… 20 minutes to get off that… it woulda taken ’em 45 to get back up… or… or more… to get back up that… so once you’re committed downhill there’s really no way to make any time goin’ uphill. So IF they had fire here and they were tryin’ to climb… they woulda never made it… their best option was where they deployed

    Later… same thing… no mention of ‘fire behind them’ when asked about their ‘options’…

    Q: Chief… I know they only had a very short time to pick a spot to deploy their shelters… but can you talk about how optimal a spot this is for shelter deployment… um… I guess the goal is to try and get as much of a seal around ya as ya can?

    Darrell Willis: It was the best they had at the time.

    Uh… it… at the time… based.. ya know… on our… uh… thought that the fire was movin’ up this camon… canyon… it’s the best they had at the time.

    There was NO other options.
    There wasn’t an option to escape… uphill.
    This is where they had to deploy.


    Keep in mind that it is still totally unknown when the ‘moment of realization’ was, or how much TIME Granite Mountain really had that afternoon.

    That would have been the moment that Willis was referring to when he first said publicly, and with an air of ‘certainty’…

    “…they knew that they had fire on both sides of ’em… they had fire behind ’em… and now they had fire ahead of them”

    Willis was actually making it SOUND like they FIRST saw fire ‘behind them’… and only AFTER that saw fire ‘ahead’ of them and felt ‘trapped’ enough to believe that deploying on the floor of the fuel-filled canyon was their ‘only option’.

    The only thing we know for sure is that by 16:39:25 ( 4:39 PM plus 25 seconds ), when we first hear Jesse Steed trying to contact John Burfiend in ‘Bravo 33’… Granite Mountain had ALREADY done all of the following things…

    1. Realized they were in deep trouble.
    2. Considered ALL their options.
    3. Decided to deploy there on the floor of the fuel-filled box canyon.
    4. SEARCHED for the right place to deploy.
    5. Chosen a place and committed to it.
    6. Given out work assignments to ‘improve the site’
    7. Sawyers pulled ropes on their saws and were already ‘at work’
    8. Others assisting with brush removal and ‘burning out around ourselves’ work.

    We know they were already ‘at work’ actually clearing the deployment site when we first hear Jesse Steed because that is not ‘over modulation’ being heard on that first transmission. You can already HEAR the chainsaws running ( at least two ) in the background… and the primary reason Jesse Steed is heard YELLING in that first transmission is because he was close to the saws running and was raising his voice just as much to make sure he could hear HIMSELF speaking into the radio as to be sure the receiving party could hear/understand him over the din as well.

    So the actual ‘moment of realization’ itself that afternoon still all depends on how much TIME had actually elapsed BEFORE 4:39:25 PM in order to complete all the ‘tasks’ listed above.

    It could have only been a few minutes… but could easily have also been as long as 5 to 8 ( or even 10 ) minutes.

    Probably the MOST time-consuming ‘task’ from the list above is the part about searching/finding/choosing the actual place to deploy.

    Maybe they had ‘seen’ that ‘clearing’ already as they were moving east and BEFORE the ‘moment of realization’ and were able to ‘retreat’ to it fairly quickly and ‘get to work’ improving it.

    But maybe not.

    Maybe they really had to ‘struggle’ to even FIND that small clearing in the middle of that tangled mess of vegetation… and wasted MANY precious minutes doing so.

    • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

      Reply to Robert the Second ( RTS ) post on April 1, 2017 at 10:06 am

      >> RTS said…
      >> Courthouse News article on latest AZ Appeals Court ruling against the
      >> families that sued the State of AZ for their homes destroyed by yhe YH Fire.

      Thanks for the ‘heads up’ on this latest ‘ruling’ in the ‘property damage’ lawsuit(s).

      Courthouse News Service
      Article Title: Arizona Ducks Small Town’s Wildfire Claims
      Published: March 31, 2017 by Allie Weintraub

      From the article…
      PHOENIX (CN) – ( The State of ) Arizona is off the hook for extensive property damage caused by a deadly lightning-sparked wildfire in 2013, the Arizona Court of Appeals ruled Thursday.

      The property owners claimed state officials’ negligence, along with their failure to give timely evacuation notice to residents, made Arizona liable for damages.

      The appellate court disagreed.

      Ruling in the residents’ favor would require Arizona to act as insurer of all private property against natural disasters, Judge Kent Cattani wrote for the three-judge panel. Requiring that would create a “self-defeating incentive” for Arizona to stop fighting wildland fires, Cattani concluded.

      Direct link to the actual ‘ruling’ document…,%201%20CA-CV%2015-0350.pdf

      The ( Arizona ) Appellate Court did NOT actually ‘disagree’ with the following…

      “The property owners claimed state officials’ negligence, along with their failure to give timely evacuation notice to residents, made Arizona liable for damages.”

      Instead… the Appellate Court said they must ‘ASSUME’ the allegations of negligence are CORRECT…

      From PDF page 2 of the ‘ruling’ itself…
      The Residents asserted civil claims against the State, alleging that the State had negligently managed the firefighting efforts, negligently failed to protect Yarnell from the fire, and negligently failed to provide a timely evacuation notice, all leading to the destruction of their property.

      We consider only the ( original ) pleading itself, and we ASSUME THE TRUTH of all well-pleaded factual allegations and indulge all reasonable inferences from those facts.

      In other words… Appellate Court Judge Kent E. Cattani ( speaking for himself AND on behalf of the Judge Lawrence F. Winthrop and Judge Peter B. Swann ) is NOT rendering any opinion on the FACTS of the original ‘pleading’.

      Only an actual ‘day in court’ ( which the residents of Yarnell still DESERVE ) can decide that.

      Judge Cattani is ONLY stating ( as Appeal Court judges for cases that have NOT ever even been to trial are REQUIRED to do ) that it MUST be ASSUMED that the alleged FACTS in the pleading are CORRECT… and that the ‘suppression’ efforts at the Yarnell Hill Fire were an absolute cluster-fuck and one of the greatest examples of ‘negligence’ one could ever imagine.

      All he is doing is ‘affirming’ the decision of Judge Gama from the lower court who said that it doesn’t matter if it was all a gigantic display of gross negligence and incompetence. The only thing that ‘matters’ is that despite what most of the good ‘citizens’ of Arizona might BELIEVE… Arizona State Forestry never has one single atomic molecule of ‘responsibility’ or ‘duty’ to ever lift a single finger to ever ‘protect’ any Arizona citizen and/or their property.

      Not EVER ( no matter what all the fireman who get dispatched BELIEVE their ‘job’ is ).

      But Katani takes his “opinion” one step further and basically says that if it were ever possible for any ‘fireman’ working for Arizona State Forestry to EVER be held ‘accountable’ for even the worst negligence and incomptence one could ever imagine… that would just result in Arizona Forestry never bothering to ever do anything at all.

      From PDF page 4 of the ‘ruling’ itself…
      The parties AGREE that prevention or suppression of wildfires ( like the emergency response to any natural disaster ) is a fundamental public safety obligation, and that public policy should encourage a prompt and efficacious response from the State. But imposing a tort duty based on the State’s undertaking to provide an emergency response could instead encourage inaction: the State could shield itself from liability by simply doing nothing.

      Total horseshit.

      The GOOD news is that attorney Craig Knapp himself KNOWS this is ‘Total horseshit’.

      Also from the article…
      “The Arizona Court of Appeals incorrectly concluded that it would be bad public policy to hold the state liable for negligence in fighting wildfires,” attorney Craig Knapp said in a statement. “The best public policy is, we believe, to hold the state as liable as any private citizen for any negligence that it commits when it decides to act.”

      Attorney Craig Knapp said they plan to file a motion for reconsideration by April 14.

      If denied, the residents plan to appeal their case to the Arizona Supreme Court.

      “What we can say for certain is that we will keep fighting for the residents of Yarnell,” Knapp said.

      More to come… and it will now be up to the Arizona Supreme Court to decide what ‘good public policy’ means… and whether ‘good public policy’ really means you can/should have a bunch of incompetent yahoos on the ‘public payroll’ running around committing ‘gross negligence’ who are NEVER capable of being held ‘accountable’ for their fuck-ups.

        • says

          CELL PHONE Communications on YHF:

          I cannot understand why phone records haven’t been obtained from 6/30/2013.

          Even in the case of cell phones being destroyed in the fire and elsewhere I thought it was possible to recover the records.

          Isn’t this accomplished by law enforcement agencies in criminal situations?

          How can this information be obtained? FOIAs?

          • says

            In videos firefighters can be heard asking for Musser’s cell phone number.

            Where are these records?

            Some of these cell phone conversations must contain vital information about what was occurring on the fire and may prevent a future disaster.

          • says

            Cell phone communication :

            To quote WTKTT:

            SAIT and ADOSH would have had “the authority” to obtain the call records of
            pretty much anyone they wanted to–even if it had taken some back and forth with some lawyers to get it done

            Why didn’t this happen especially for Eric Marsh’s cell phone?

            • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

              Reply to Diane Lomas post on April 23, 2017 at 7:28 am

              >> Diane Lomas said…
              >> Cell phone communication :
              >> To quote WTKTT:
              >> SAIT and ADOSH would have had “the authority” to
              >> obtain the call records of pretty much anyone they
              >> wanted to–even if it had taken some back and forth
              >> with some lawyers to get it done
              >> Why didn’t this happen especially for Eric Marsh’s cell phone?

              No one knows.

              Not yet, anyway.

              Remember, however, that even though the Arizona Department Of Health and Safety ( ADOSH ) is an official State-level investigation authority ( and with all the powers that go with it )… it was never the JOB of ADOSH to determine exactly what happened with the deaths of the 19 Hotshots.

              There came a point in their ‘workplace safety’ investigation where they already had enough ‘evidence’ to issue multiple ‘willful serious’ workplace safety violations for that screwed-up Yarnell workplace… and they also realized that they were now ‘pegging the meter’ on the actual maximum level of fines they are even allowed ( by law ) to levy on any Arizona employer.

              So they really didn’t ‘finish’ their investigation.

              Once they were already ‘pegging the meter’ and had hit the ‘maximum fines allowed’ just based on the evidence and testimony they had already ‘collected’… they ‘called it a day’ and really didn’t bother pursuing things that they still could have just to find out what REALLY happened.

              As for the SAIT… look above at that document which shows Jim Karels officially requesting the RTT ( Range To Tower ) records for 26 different Yarnell-related cellphone numbers.

              Probably a large majority of those cellphone numbers belonged to the Granite Mountain Hotshots themselves ( however many of them actually had valid cellphone numbers ).

              But there is NOTHING in the SAIT ‘evidence record’ to indicate if Verizon ever did ‘comply’ with that request and NOTHING to indicate whether the SAIT ever received the ‘call records’ and the RTT data for those 26 cellphone numbers.

              What?… did Verizon REFUSE to supply the information?

              Even that ‘refusal letter’ ( if it happened at all ) should have been part of the ‘public evidence record’ once the SAIT was forced ( via Arizona Open Records laws ) to supply ALL of their ‘evidence’.

              This is probably just more proof that, just like the original Aaron Hulburd videos, Jim Karels and Mike Dudley and Randy Okon ended up LYING about what was actually ‘in their possession’ and they never actually released ALL of the ‘evidence’ that had been assembled by the SAIT… even though that is what the LAW required them to do.

              They only ‘released’ what they WANTED to… and to hell with silly little things like LAWS.

              • says

                Reply to WTKTT
                Regarding cell phones:
                What can be done at this point to access cell phone records for all Granite Mountain hotshot cell records including Eric marsh?

                • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

                  Reply to Diane lomas post on
                  April 23, 2017 at 7:51 pm

                  >> Diane lomas said…
                  >> Regarding cell phones:
                  >> What can be done at this point to access
                  >> cell phone records for all Granite Mountain
                  >> hotshot cell records including Eric marsh?

                  Unless VERIZON actually REFUSED to supply the records officially requested by SAIT Co-Lead Jim Karels… then whatever the SAIT received should still be sitting in a filing cabinet somewhere, even though they ‘pretended’ to not have this information when it came time for a PUBLIC release of ALL the evidence obtained during this totally-tapayer funded ‘investigation’.

                  An ‘Arizona Open Records Request’ and/or an FOIA should produce those records. Remember… it is a FELONY to actually DESTROY ‘evidence’.

                  As for Eric Marsh’s cellphone… his widow got tired of all the controversy and supposedly shared some kind of ‘Eric Marsh cellphone records’ with people.

                  Kinda, sorta.

                  She still refuses to show the actual ‘documents’ and just expects everyone to ‘take her word for it’ regarding what may or may not be in those ‘records’.

                  It is also still not known if these ‘records’ she is/was referring to are just a copy of the usual phone bill one might get in the mail… or whether they really are the FULL packet-level records that can/should be supplied by the Carrier.

                  John Dougherty wrote an article about this and was able to talk to Amanda Marsh herself about it…

                  Article Title: Eric Marsh had no cell phone communications in hours before deployment, his widow says
                  Published: December 20, 2015, by John Dougherty

                  (Story updated at 9:05 a.m., Dec. 21, 2015 to include Amanda Marsh’s statement that Eric Marsh only carried ONE cell phone.)


      • Robert the Second says

        And always remember that in spite of any and all ASF and/or IMT blunders or anything else, it was the sole responsibility of the GMHS Crew Leaders on the YH Fire on June 30, 2013, to protect the safety and welfare of those they supervised, i.e. the GMHS, which included themselves.

        • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

          Only an actual “day in court”, with witnesses finally being FORCED to ” tell the truth, the WHOLE truth, and nothing BUT the truth”, will reveal the FULL scope of what really happened that weekend… and not just on Sunday.

          The ‘negligence’ started on Friday… and CONTINUED for the entire weekend.

          • Robert the Second says

            Yes, agreed. But a competent HS Crew with good, competent supervisors would have remained in the good black and not traveled through the green when they did. They’d all still be alive.

            • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

              And competent ‘management’ would have made SURE they DID.

              It still remains an absolute mystery whether or not Thomas French and John Burfiend and Clint Cross ( in aircraft ‘Bravo 33’ ) were ever actually ‘instructed’ to fly down to the Yarnell side of the fire to make SURE that Granite Mountain was ‘staying put’ in the ‘safe black’… or… if they even WERE ‘instructed’ to do so… whether they actually DID.

              OPS1 Todd Abel ‘testified’ that he DID ‘instruct’ them to do so… and that they DID do the ‘safety check’… and then reported back that GM was, in fact, ‘safe’.

              But Thomas French and John Burfiend ‘testifed’ it was the exact OPPOSITE. They ‘testified’ that it was THEIR idea to go and do a ‘safety check’ on a ‘crew headed to a safety zone’ ( GM )… but that it was then OPS1 Todd Abel who ‘called them off’ on that ‘mission’ and said it wasn’t necessary. So they did NOT do the ‘safety check’.

              Both of those ‘versions’ of what happened that afternoon CANNOT both be TRUE.

              Someone has always been ‘lying’ about it.

              • says

                Is this the same radio conversation where AA heard that Granite Mountain was moving to their safety zone as asked if they should take a time to check out their situation and were told that there was no need as it was Granite Mountain who were safe?

              • says

                Possibly Todd Able did not want AA to be aware of Granite Mountain’s movements toward Yarnell as it might interfere with the Hail Mary plan that was in process and needed to be kept secret as it went against wildland firefighting rules.

                • Robert the Second says


                  What WFF Rules are you referring to here?: “the Hail Mary plan that was in process and needed to be kept secret as it went against wildland firefighting rules.”

                  • says

                    As you may know I am a retired elementary school teacher without fire training but from what I have read one of the wild land fire “rules” or watchout situations” that I was referring to here is *no unburned fuel between firefighters and the fire* .

                    • Robert the Second says


                      Okay. That’s a Watch Out Situation, so one can violate or break a but fail to know it, recognize it and mitigate it.
                      There were other Watch Outs in place that likely precluded them from accomplishing this operatiion, like
                      Weather getting hitter and drier, the winds increasing and/or changing direction,
                      Instructions and assignments not clear, no communication, etc.
                      Doing this on my phone so insure of how this will come out

                    • says

                      Thank you for engaging in this dialogue with me. I usually prefer to follow facts in a situation and resist jumping to conclusions but the resistance to cooperate block access to necessary information has changed my mind.
                      WTKTT suggested earlier on this blog that I should “fire away with my theories” about what I think could have happened on Yarnell when we have been stonewalled and had important evidence withheld .

                      My point is that with the dynamic and dangerous conditions present at the Yarnell Hill fire
                      on the afternoon of 6/30/2013 fire fighters (and commanders) in the
                      area were well aware of the dangers of all the conditions that you mentioned above and if they knew that a crew was ignoring these dangers and
                      engaging in what could be conceived as a
                      suicide mission steps would have most likely been
                      taken to stop them.
                      Not everyone would have tried to stop them—- those who were trying to stop the disaster unfolding that they allowed would be pulling out all the stops to
                      prevent what mismangement had created and would have worked with Granite Mountain to try to pull off this audacious feat—to help Yarnell and its citizens and save face for the agencies in charge of the fire.

                      Again—these are my theories based on what could have happened

                    • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

                      Reply to Diane Lomas post on
                      April 10, 2017 at 12:00 pm

                      >> Diane Lomas said…
                      >> …if they ( other ‘managers’ ) knew that a
                      >> crew was ignoring these dangers and
                      >> engaging in what could be conceived
                      >> as a suicide mission steps would have
                      >> most likely been taken to stop them.

                      In a public speech to a roomful of firefighters on June 20, 2014… Yarnell SAIT Co-Lead Mike Dudley admitted that the fact that DIVSA Eric Marsh was using the ‘private’ GM Intra-crew radio frequency to communicate with the only resouce in his Division ( Granite Mountain ) was definitely a ‘contributing factor’ to what eventually happened that tragic Sunday.

                      DIVSA Marsh was moving his ‘resources’ ( GM ) OUT of their ‘assigned division’ ( Division A ) and into ANOTHER adjacent ‘Division’ ( DIVS Z )… but since that move and the discussions over the radio that led up to it were NOT taking place over the ‘open TAC’ radio channels… other managers and personnel on the fire were not fully aware of what was taking place.

                      According to Mike Dudley… this DID ‘short circuit’ the ‘normal’ process of other ‘managers’ on the fire becoming fully aware of the movement of resources… and the normal chance to provide ‘input’ or… indeed… perform an intervention.

                      If ALL the other ‘managers’ on the fire HAD been fully aware of what Marsh was trying to pull off and ‘ordering’ Granite Mountain to do… would Marsh and/or Steed had ‘listened’ to anyone or followed any advice to NOT make the attempt and ‘stay in the black’?

                      Hard to say.

                      But even though the published SAIR report did NOT mention this… SAIT Co-Lead Mike Dudley himself later admitted that these ‘private conversations’ over a ‘private channel’ between a DIVS ( Marsh ) and a resource Superintendent ( Steed ) which could NOT be ‘heard’ by anyone who didn’t have the GM ‘private’ radio frequency was definitely a ‘contributing factor’ to the tragedy.

                      People like RTS ( and others ) can go on all day long about how it wasn’t anyone else’s ‘responsibility’ to monitor GM’s movements that day… but the REALITY is that…. given the conditions that afternoon… if more ‘managers’ HAD been FULLY aware of what Marsh was ordering GM to do… there MIGHT have been an ‘intervention’ that day… or at least some ‘gut check’ radio calls along the lines of…

                      “Are you SURE you know what the fuck you are doing? Are you SURE you have a ‘lookout’ and your own ‘eyes’ on this thing? Are you FULLY aware how fast this fire is moving towards your planned ‘escape route’?”

                    • Robert the Second says


                      On April 13th you posted:

                      “But even though the published SAIR report did NOT mention this… SAIT Co-Lead Mike Dudley himself later admitted that these ‘private conversations’ over a ‘private channel’ between a DIVS ( Marsh ) and a resource Superintendent ( Steed ) which could NOT be ‘heard’ by anyone who didn’t have the GM ‘private’ radio frequency was definitely a ‘contributing factor’ to the tragedy.”

                      “People like RTS ( and others ) can go on all day long about how it wasn’t anyone else’s ‘responsibility’ to monitor GM’s movements that day… but the REALITY is that…. given the conditions that afternoon… if more ‘managers’ HAD been FULLY aware of what Marsh was ordering GM to do… there MIGHT have been an ‘intervention’ that day… or at least some ‘gut check’ radio calls along the lines of…”

                      Really? Will you kindly refresh my memory and people like me on me/us “go[ing] on all day long about how it wasn’t anyone else’s ‘responsibility’ to monitor GM’s movements that day…’

                      All Wildland Fire Supervisors have the responsibility to monitor their Resources as much as those Resources also have the same responsibility to notify their supervisors, i.e. Fire Order No. 7 “Maintain prompt communications with your forces [resources], your supervisor, …”

                      Todd Able did contact them, verified their location, and told them to “hunker and be safe.”

                      I assure you that I would have been inquiring about what Marsh and/or the GMHS was up to, what they were doing, their location, etc. because of his past experience of being disingenuous, outright lying, and “deliberately vague” according to SAIT Co-Tea Leader Mike Dudley, addressing those same Utah WFF’s.

                      So, please refresh mine and others’ memories on this matter. Thanks.

              • Robert the Second says


                I disagree. Neither competent or incompetent management would have ensure the GMHS safety that day. Only GMHS could ensured their safety.

                Nobody held a literal or figurative gun to the GMHS’ head(s) – individually or collectively – and forced them to leave the safe black. And retardant air support on the fire and/or on the GMHS especially would have been a near possibility even in ‘perfect’ weather according to French and Burfiend.

                And I agree with Rocksteady and his conclusions on AA. AA cannot order anyone in the air to do anything, They were more like suggestions.


                • says

                  Did politics and Peeple’s Valley landowners play a role in the loss of Yarnell and 19 mens’ lives?

                  If the AA supervisor had not left Peeple’s Valley air space at 3:50 pm on 6/30/2013 perhaps the remaining AA would have flown to Yarnell at that time and reduced some of the destruction that the fire caused and even helped Granite Mountain.

                  I think that AA could have been influenced through political pressure to continue dropping retardant in Peeple’s Valley to protect wealthy ranchers’ property and without their supervisor on site they were free to do that.

                  If this is the case no wonder there is so much GUILT over the loss of these men.

                  • says

                    AA supervisor left Peeples Valley air space—–

                    Could the AA supervisor have left Peeple’s Valley airspace due to a disagreement among AA pilots, ground supervisors etc and himself about continued support in that area after a wind shift and resources being needed in Yarnell?

                    • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

                      Not likely.

                      If you look carefully at all the ‘Air Logs’ that are in the public evidence record… and you ‘add up’ the time that Rory Collins was ‘in the air’ that day… then what Rory Collins himself said about his pilot ‘timing out’ turns out to be TRUE.

                      Rory Collins was not flying the small plane he was in that Sunday over Yarnell.

                      Some other guy ( or gal ) was.

                      After two full investigations… we still don’t really know WHO that ‘pilot’ was that was flying AA Rory Collins around all day Sunday.

                      But if you add up the HOURS in the ‘Aircraft Logs’ for that plane for Sunday, June 30, 2013… then yes… that ‘pilot’ really was about to ‘time out’ circa 4:00 PM on Sunday, June 30, 2013…. and THAT is why Rory Collins had to pass off the AA duties to John Burfiend in ‘Bravo 33’ at 3:58 PM, when Collins and his pilot actually left the Yarnell airspace.

                      I’m not ‘dissing’ any of your theories about who or what might have been fully influencing the air support that day.

                      I’m just saying that when it comes to WHY AA Rory Collins had to leave Yarnell at 3:58 PM… it really does appear to be what he said.

                      His ‘pilot’ had flown all the hours he was ‘allowed’ to that day.

                    • says

                      April 13 reply to WTKTT:

                      Thank you WTKTT for your measured informative reply.
                      I do not feel that you are dissing my theories about what could have happened on the Yarnell Hill fire on 6/30/2013–they are theories to be hashed out ,as you indicated,on this site.
                      Your evidence of the logs totally the amount of hours that Rory Collins’ pilot had flown on 6/30/2013 indicated that indeed his pilot needed to leave at that point for safety reasons,not because of a possible power struggle.
                      Strange that we do not know the pilot’s name-I assume that this was requested in a FOIA.

                • says

                  As I listened to an earlier video where Mike Dudley was speaking to a group of firefighters about the Yarnell Hill Fire he stated that in the box canyon where Granite Mountain was trapped they had fire in back of them and fire in front of them.

                  Where was the fire in back of them coming from?

                  • Robert the Second says


                    There was NO fire in back of them.The SAIT completely made that up.

                    Go to the SAIR link below and to page 77, and the idealized image in Figure 16 allegedly indicating the “Fire splitting with south head entering the middle bowl and north head moving toward the entrapment bowl”


                    This is in step with the ongoing SAIT past practice of first establishing a conclusion and then finding the facts to fit that conclusion in all wildland fire fatality “factual reports” where WFF are killed by fire.

                    • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

                      The world first heard of this “They had fire both BEHIND them and AHEAD of them” theory that the SAIT was coming up with when Darrell Willis towed the line and ‘announced’ it at the first press conference on July 23, 2013.

                      But even in that press conference… Willis only ‘postulated’ that theory to help explain WHY Granite Mountain decided to deploy on the floor of the canyon when he was delivering the ‘narrative’ part of the press conference.

                      In the following Q/A session… Willis went right back to only suggesting they MIGHT have seen fire ‘behind’ them ( up on the ridge where they came from ) and that it only MIGHT have factored into their decision making.

                      See the following additional ‘post’ about this up above…


                  • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

                    Reply to Diane Lomas post on
                    April 20, 2017 at 4:00 pm

                    >> Diane Lomas said…
                    >> As I listened to an earlier video where
                    >> Mike Dudley was speaking to a group
                    >> of firefighters about the Yarnell Hill Fire
                    >> he stated that in the box canyon where
                    >> Granite Mountain was trapped they had
                    >> fire in back of them and fire in front of them.
                    >> Where was the fire in back of them
                    >> coming from?

                    Diane… see a longer ‘Reply’ up above posted as a new ‘Parent Comment’…


            • says

              Please note: This comment includes some of my “theories” for which there is not direct evidence at this time but rather are possibilites that make sense to me and are open to discussion.

              Granite Mountain declined the first time they were requested to move resources to Yarnell to help but shortly after began moving in that direction in spite of the danger . Initially Granite Mountain asked if Blue Ridge could do it as they were closer but since that wasn’t going to happen Granite Mountain took the job after Marsh was pressured by his supervisors and convinced that Granite Mountain was the only unit that could save Yarnell. This argument not only appealed to Marsh’s “can do” spirit and fit in with him needing to prove himself as well as the idea of “risk a lot to save a lot”. He then ordered Steed ,who pointed out the dangers, to move the men.

              What could have overridden their concern for their personal safety??Not only were their jobs on the line but possibly more important to the men was their moral obligation to help if they could.
              With the fire out of control and previous plans failing, Marsh ,in cooperation with others on the fire such as Todd Able and Cortes entered into the Hail Mary plan in a last minute attempt to save Yarnell and the vulnerable residents in that area.

              Aware of the dangers but hoping that with AA support, cooperation from peers and their skills it was worth the risk . They just might have been successful if AA had not remained in Peeple’s Valley for 40 minutes during the critical timeframe when they were directed to Yarnell on the afternoon of 6/30/2013.

              To be continued——

              • says

                Continuation of Yarnell Hill Fire theories—–(again, these are theories based on what could have happened)

                Afternoon of 6/30/2013:
                With fire north of Yarnell in Peeple’s Valley retardant drops were focused in Peeple’s Valley to protect buildings and ranch land in that area. Darryl Willis was coordinating drops from AA up until about 3;50 pm. About this time there was a wind shift which changed the fire threat from the North (Peeple’s Valley area) to the South (Yarnell area). This is when the air attack supervisor left the air space directing remaining AA to head to Yarnell and help out there. AA stayed in Peeple’s Valley instead . The ranchers would have been opposed to this loss of protection for themselves even though the wind shift reduced their threat and would most likely have used political pressure to keep Willis and others dropping retardant in Peeple’s valley rather than allow support to Yarnell. .At this point Willis could have authorized Dan Sullivan or others qualified to continue the drops in Peeple’s Valley while he tended to other fire issues.

                • rocksteady says

                  With the fire behaviour intensities and rates of spread exhibited by this fire, IF, even IF, Air Attack could have got in there, retardant would not have been effective. The spotting from the fire would have jumped across any retardant line they laid.

                  Retardant does not put out fire, it suppresses it. It is put out by men and women with hoses and hand tools.

                  Laying load after load of fire suppression agent (aka retardant) would have been futile and useless. yeah, they could have tried it, but as I said above the spotting would have jumped across the retardant and kept going..

                    • rocksteady says

                      Cause they were in deep shit and knew that they had to try something…

                      Sort of like their attempt to clear out a safe zone, burn off and deploy.

                      They were in deep deep shit and had to try… Did not work..

                  • says

                    Reply to Rocksteady,

                    Rocksteady I believe that you are describing how fire retardant would have been ineffective as fire gathered more strength about 4:30pm

                    Prior to that at about 3:50 pm when AA remained in Peeple’s Valley for another 40 minutes maybe there had been a chance for the retardant to reduce fire to Yarnell
                    structures and possibly help granite mountain. Dropping retardant in Peeple’s Valley after the wind shift at 3:50 pm helped ranchers in that area who had political influence.
                    In my opinion Yarnell and granite mountain didn’t receive the protection they deserved because ranchers and politicians influenced fire managers and others to stay in an area that no longer needed their protection at the expense of another (Yarnell) that desperately needed it.

                    • rocksteady says

                      I have to disagree.

                      When the original fire was doing its thing, the Peeples Valley side was the priority, as it was the active front. Because it was the priority, due to fire behaviour, that is where the retardant was being placed. Once the wind shifted, the South flank then became the head of the fire, thus the active front. However, at that time there was considerable distance for the fire to cover until it reached YArnell.

                      I believe the managers etc on the fire underestimated the potential for the fire to reach Yarnell as aggressively as it did.

                      It still baffles me that based on the forecast weather etc for the day, as well as existing fuel moisture content that the warning signs were ignored. The fire behaviour forecast for the operational period (that was allegedly talked about in the morning briefing), as well as the radio updates from the weather specialist, seem to have gone right over peoples heads.

                      I do not believe that political pressure from ranchers etc made any difference in where the priority was. The priority would always be the value at risk (which may be ranches/homes etc) regardless of location or ownership.

                      Granite did not receive the protection they needed, as you put it because:

                      a) they went black ops and made a move without the overhead knowing it.

                      b) they went rogue, breaking or bending most of the watch outs and fire orders on a “suicide mission” in order to get to Yarnell and help evacuate and then be declared as “heroes”… Well, that was the intention anyways… did not work out as planned.

                      c) they were not following the plans of the morning briefing OR any amendments to the plan that were evolving during the day… “stay in the black, hunker down…”

                    • rocksteady says

                      Even if they had laid retardant along the South side, as you suggest, in those sort of winds it is absolutely no guarantee that spotting would not have occurred across that line.

                      One ember spewing juniper, mesquite, manzanita etc in a wind of 50 mph will cross a 100 foot wide retardant line like it was not there.

                    • says

                      Reply to Rocksteady’s comment about AA dropping retardant in the Yarnell area at 3:50-4:30 pm:

                      You stated that dropping retardant in Yarnell at that time would have been ineffective due to weather conditions etc.—-Then why did Rory Collins suggest that AA fly to Yarnell and “see what they could do there” due to changing weather conditions. He made a point of bringing this to their attention before he left that airspace so he must have been concerned and thought that they could help in spite of the conditions.

                    • Robert the Second says


                      You are correct on all your assumptions and conclusions regarding the GMHS that day

                    • rocksteady says

                      He suggested Rory go there, as an Air Attack has a view of the fire that the ground forces do not. So he was suggesting that if Rory went down there and found suitable, effective targets, that they should be attempted. However I suspect even if he had gone down there, it would have been a no -go due to the weather and smoke.

                      It is a very common practice that if air attack or other aircraft are in the air that ground personnel ask the to “look at things”…. The air attack plane is fast, agile and has an experienced fire person in the passengers seat.

        • Gary Olson says

          I agree 100 percent with my old friend. And I’m pretty darn happy to still see him posting. I was even happier to see my relatively new friend, since I measure most my friends in decades now, Bob Powers make some guest appearances.

          I haven’t gone away, just in case anybody was worried about me. I just haven’t had anything worthwhile to add for quite some time, although I know that hasn’t ever stopped me before, but people do change.

          I am still willing to be a good listener who will promise anyone who wants to share with me anonymity, although I won’t keep what you tell me a secret. There are too many people who have already made that deal with the Devil. : )

          • says

            Some of my ” theories”” are stated in a post on IM on the afternoon of April 8
            This includes leaving the black and AA..
            There has been push back from RTS which is fine-all part of a good discussion I think.

            Looking forward to your reactions,

            • Gary Olson says

              Yes, I agree with your theory on why the crew left the black (if I remember right, Steed refused twice and had to ordered to do it a third time) except I would add to “Marsh ,in cooperation with others on the fire such as Todd Able and Cortes entered into the Hail Mary plan in a last minute attempt to save Yarnell and the vulnerable residents in that area.”

              And here I would add “Or at least look good while trying even though any reasonable WF at their collective fire experience either did know, or should have know that their efforts didn’t have a chance of succeeding under those fire conditions and other circumstances…so heavy on the look good trying.”

              I know you have suggested AA stayed up north in an effort to protect rich and influential ranch owners at the expense of the town, that may be true, I just hope its not because that would be much worse than my lowest opinion of those who were involved such as Willis.

              I can also tell you that IMHO, no reasonable and experienced line WF would ever attempt such a risky maneuver based on hoping they get air support because air support is so fickle and dependent on so many uncontrollable variables.

              I never assumed air attack would be able to help us on the line ever, and so they never disappointed me. I’m not saying that could not have been Marsh’s plan, I am just saying that anybody who did that would have to have a death wish.

              I can also tell you that in my four years of fire management once I was off the line as a grunt, I never experienced, or even heard of, or suspected that fire teams were putting that kind of priority on private land, but Arizona Division of Forestry is a highly political organization and they might be susceptible to that kind of pressure from people like Maughn, Pierce and Fann.

              And Willis survived as the Fire Chief of a inbred small town fire chief for about 15 years…so I do know he was and still is very savvy at playing in cut throat political circles. And even when he was fired as Chief, he was given a Golden Parachute that would make anyone envious…including me. So…if we ever find out that is what really happened, I will neither be surprised or disappointed. I will just say, “That figures.”

              And please keep in mind, my old friend RTS, is an apologist for “them” depending on who “them” are and what day of the week it is, bless his heart, but nobody is perfect. Some of them he guts and some of them he lets live, bless his heart.

      • says

        A friend in Tucson just let me know about the fire on Mt. Lemmon-started in Molino Basin a few days ago and is now called “Shovel Fire” which appears to be further north on Mt. Lemmon.

        Mesa IHC working both fires

  6. rocksteady says

    Reposting the question, as it got buried under some Trump political/absolutely non fire related posts..

    So has there been any significant push for fuels management activities around communities since the Yarnell Fire????

    Being that its all chaparral, manzanita, mesquite (whatever) that has zero timber value, why not go out and treat areas around communities to 1000 yards (be it with mechanical mulching or prescribed fire) and then maintain it thru fire or what have you every 3 to 5 years???

    Just looking at photos and maps, seems to be pretty easy ground that a large mulcher type machine could do a lot of ground in a day…

    • Gary Olson says

      Do I detect just a hint of recrimination? OK…fair enough. And yes, I saw your question but I did not take a stab at it because there was a whole bunch of discussion a while back on exactly that and it is far too complicated and nuanced for me to try and explain, so someone like Joy, Sonny or WTKTT need to point you to where it was at…because it was a lot.

      And it had to do with large amounts of grant money perhaps being misspent and maybe just outright fraud from Chief Ben D’Over and gross exaggeration of what was accomplished becyaseJoy and Sonny could not see what they had claimed to accomplish on the ground or get them to give up budgets, and accounting records by FOIA. It sounds like it was a real mess.

      • Gary Olson says

        Oh…and one more thing. You are going to have to start worrying about Trump soon enough because I am pretty sure after we invade Australia and Mexico…Canada is next! Sure, yeah, yeah becha…so heads up Canuck!

      • rocksteady says

        Yeah, I remember that there were issues of the $ being handed over but no treatments being done…

        I was just wondering if the practice had come to the forefront and been implemented to help protect communities? as it is apparent that all of the fire fighting resources in the world can’t stop some fires…

        The Trump stuff to me is pure entertainment… I have no ability to vote him in or out, so just watch the “show” and either laff my arse off or shake my head, depending on what he is saying or doing at that particular moment…

        • Gary Olson says

          You have the right attitude brother. That’s pretty much where I am at as well. He can’t restore the USA to where we were and who we were in the 1950’s. And just as soon as his supporters accept that one simple fact…he will become a footnote, albeit a very bad one in our nations colorful and tumultuous history.

          When thinking about what we do sometimes, I like to remember what Sir Winston Churchill said about Americans and that was we always do the right thing, but only after exhausting all other possibilities.

          • says

            Reply to Gary Olson and WTKTT about Granite Mountain Hot shots autopsies:

            After reading your comments as to what torture the hotshots endured rather than instant death I am wondering if that is why the autopsy reports were so long in coming out—–the effect the reports may have had on lawsuits rather than privacy issues.

            So glad that folks like Gary and WTKTT are providing their input as well as JD to get the truth out.

            • Gary Olson says

              They said it was to protect the privacy of the families. I have no interest in protecting the privacy of the families, but I have a lot of interest in acknowledging how the hotshots died and all of the circumstances surrounding their deaths in the public interest of preventing this from happening a fourth time.

              I personally think it was to protect the privacy of the agencies and their employees who were responsible for all of the contributing factors in those deaths.

                • says

                  I apologize if my question below seems repetitive but the answer is not clear to me. The 40 minutes that air attack stayed in Peeple’s Valley at 3;50 p.m. on 6/30/2013 seems like the “elephant in the room” that could have made a difference for Granite Mountain.

                  If air attack had flown to the Yarnell area at 3:50 pm on 6/30/2013 , as directed by their supervisor, what would have been the chances of saving Granite Mountain?

                    • says

                      Hi Bob,
                      Good to see you jump on here with all your experience.
                      You mentioned that air attack did not fly to Yarnell at 3:50 p.m. on 6/30/2013 because no one knew the location of Granite Mountain. As I recall air attack was directed at that time to Yarnell to assist with changing conditions in Yarnell area–Granite Mountain wasn’t mentioned.
                      So why didn’t air attack fly over that area as directed? In moving from Peeple’s Valley to Yarnell they may have caught sight of the yellow shirts or something else identifying Granite Mountain—AA did not leave Peeple’s Valley for another 40 minutes when conditions had badly deteriorated due to smoke, wind and fire.
                      Unless there is information that I am missing AA did not even try to comply with directives to at least help Yarnell and in the process may have helped Granite Mountain.

                    • says


                      I understand that by the time that AA arrived in the Yarnell area at about 4:30 p.m. 6/30/2013 there would have been considerably more smoke and fire than at 3:50 pm when they were first directed to Yarnell limiting visibility on the ground. What I dont understand is why AA didn’t follow their supervisor’s directive and fly directly to Yarnell at 3:50 p.m. What delayed them in Peeple’s Valley for 40 minutes and how can we find out?

                    • rocksteady says

                      Diane, something that non fire folks don’t seem to understand is that even though it appears quasi military, the fire fighting game is not as strict as some are reading into it.

                      Air attack was working on Peebles Valley, trying to complete a mission, the outgoing air attack said “take a run down to Yarnell and see what you can do there”…

                      That was not a “direct order”. One air attack to another is not a command position, so in all reality it was more of a suggestion. Air attack is spinning around in the air, assessing fire movement and behaviour and deciding what is the best usage of the incoming loaded air tankers. Firefighting is a very dynamic activity, making changes and split second decisions is very common.

                      The air attack that took over felt it was important to finish off the Peebles Valley assignment (leaving a retardant line incomplete leaves opportunity for escapes to sneak around and bite you in the butt), as well, from what I have read, he had no idea that Granite Mountain was down to the South. From all accounts, the other fire fighting forces were evacuating the Yarnell area, so air attack did not realize that there were 19 guys in the middle of nowhere in trouble. Communications on this fire were an absolute cluster. A full hot shot crew going “black ops” and moving from one flank of a fire to another without supervisors knowing of the move is absolutely unheard of.

                      It just is not done… If they would have survived, they would have been fired.

        • says

          Ranchers in vicinity of Yarnell hill fire —did anyone influence air attack to remain in the Peeples Valley in the timeframe of 3:50-5p.m. When air attack was directed to assist in Yarnell?

          • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

            There is no evidence currently in the public record that would support that… but since there is also still no evidence or testimony that explains WHY ‘Bravo 33’ ( John Burfiend, Thomas French and Clint Cross ) did NOT proceed down to the Yarnell side of the fire when they were TOLD to do so by their Air Attack Supervisor ( Rory Collins ) at 3:50 PM… I suppose anything is still possible.

            • says

              The ranchers had the most to benefit from the additional air attack support during that timeframe . Makes me wonder if the outcome could have been different for granite mountain if air attack had flown to the Yarnell area when they were directed to.

                  • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

                    Circa NOON, when the first VLAT arrived, the answer is yes.

                    ‘Bravo 3’ became the air attack at that time ( when Rory Collins had to leave Yarnell and go refuel )… and Rusty Warbis and Paul Lenmark absolutely confirmed to ADOSH investigators that they were coordinating those first VLAT drops of the day with someone on the ground named ‘Darrell Willis’.

                    But the ‘ground contacts’ for the rest of the afternoon remain a bit of a mystery.

                    There is SOME evidence that, as the retardant drops continued throughthroughout the afternoon there on the NORTH side of the fire that the ‘ground contacts’ varied and included a list of people such as ( but not even limited to ) OPS1 Todd Abel, SPGS2 Darrell Willis, OPS2 Paul Missed, Fireman Corey Moser… etc. etc.

              • says

                Second thoughts about air attack’s delay in flying to Yarnell area at 3:50 p.m. on 6/30/2013——–

                Could it have been a safety concern for planes dropping the retardant?

                I am reading in My Lost Brothers that ” a pilot can only fly a few feet above the ground when he’s carrying the slurry. A lot of the time, he’s putting the aircraft through severe updrafts and plumes of hot ash rising from the fire. Those plumes cause turbulence.”

                Does this statement apply only to the DC-10s or can it also pertain to the aircraft that the air attack crew were flying that day?

                • says

                  Not sure if the statement above about the need for air attack to fly at low altitude for retardant drops is accurate—maybe someone who has time can weigh in.

                  • rocksteady says

                    I have experience with air tankers and retardant drop but am not an air attack officer, but here is my thoughts.

                    The tankers do not drop from too low down for several reasons a) safety of course. If something goes wrong in the plane they need the extra altitude in order to try to make a safe landing somewhere. b) The retardant, when released comes from a confined tank, and requires time to spread, in order to provide effective coverage. If it the plane was too low, it would just be a big old mud pie hitting the ground.

                    From my experience, the tankers drop at approximately 100 feet above tree top, however with there not being any real trees in Yarnell, they would not have been 100 feet off the ground only. Mud pie would have been the result.

                    Each aircraft has specific parameters of how high they fly when they release the load, based on air speed, based on release system (belly tank or MAFFS, etc) as well as the desired coverage level on the forest fuels targeted.

                    If you look at the video footage of the supertanker dropping on Yarnell or other fires, you can see that they are not flying too low.

                    An experienced air attack officer, such as Bob Powers (HEY! Anyone seen Bob around?? )….would be able to provide more technical data.

                    • says

                      If I understand correctly Bravo 33 would have been a smaller plane but capable of making retardant drops.
                      In your opinion would the weather and fire conditions at 3:50-4:15 p.m. on 6/30/2013 have created unsafe flying conditions for Bravo 33 to fly from Peeple’s Valley to Yarnell and participate in retardant drops during that time?

                    • rocksteady says

                      Bravo 33 was a Lead Plane or Bird Dog plane. It is a small twin engine plane, not capable of dropping retardant. It is an overhead supervisory aircraft.

              • says


                Earlier on this blog Gary Olson mentioned the issue of minimalizing regarding issues on the Yarnell Hill Fire.

                With Gary’s background as an investigator I trust that he can give us insight into this factor as it affects covering up what we still don’t know about this fire.

                My question is—-how do we effectively deal with minimalizing in our efforts to reveal the truth?

                • Gary Olson says

                  We can’t. I tried…I lost. They won. They hold all of the cards, but thanks for thinking of me. You can’t fight city hall.

                  Or in this case, the city, county, state and federal governments. Public opinion, private opinion, family’s opinions, WF community opinion, non WF community opinion, mainstream media opinion. You name it.

                  • says

                    Does this mean that we are left to come to our own conclusions based on the few facts that we have ?

                    If so, I have a few theories that I would like to put out there for what it is worth.

                    • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

                      Fire away with any ‘theories’ you like. This is probably the best place to ‘hash them out’.

                      There are MANY people following this ongoing discussion who are familiar with the ‘existing’ evidence ( and the lack thereof ).

                    • Gary Olson says

                      Well…I was probably being a little overly pessimistic, I just meant I can’t solve the case like I thought I could when I started.

                      Everything that happened on the God forsaken Yarnell Hill Fire will eventually be known, it’s just taking longer than I hoped it would.

                      If two people know a secret, it will usually only stay a secret if one of them is dead. I think there are a lot of people who know everything that happened on the YHF.

                      But in any case, I agree with the Wizard, I would love to read your theories.

            • says

              Would an air attack supervisor have authority over air attack personnel?
              When Roy Collins directed Bravo 33 to fly to Yarnell to address the situation there would he have more authority than an air attack crew or was Bravo 33 empowered to disregard his communication and make their own decisions?

              • Rockstea says

                It is not a matter of disregarding communications. It is more like here are the objectives, do what you can based on weather, visibility, resources, chance of success etc etc.

                • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

                  But there are STILL times when the ‘Air Attack’ can/should outright TELL his ‘Lead Plane’ to change the priorities and TELL the ‘Air Support’ under his/her command what to do.

                  And that is exactly what happened in Yarnell at 3:50 PM.

                  The current/active/designated ‘Air Attack’ ( Rory Collins ) TOLD his ‘Lead Plane’ ( pilot = Thomas French ) to switch priority to the Yarnell side of the fire.

                  Thomas French ( and John Burfiend ) in ‘Bravo 33’ even SAID they were then ( and immediately ) “headed that way”…

                  …but they did no such thing.

                  It took them another 40 minutes before they even bothered to ‘fly down’ to the Yarnell side to even begin evaluating the situation.

  7. Gary Olson says

    Dear Woodsman,

    I know you are fearless, but are you scared yet? I am, in fact…I am terrified something is very wrong and I am powerless to do anything about it. I need a hug.

    Please pray for our constituional federal representative democracy also commonly known as a Constitutional Republic. I’m afraid all hope is lost.

    Thank you, your old friend, comrade-in-arms seperated by time and space and brother from another mother. I hope to see you on the other side when this veil of tears is finally lifted.


    Gary, AKA Big G, the Jackhammer, El Oslo, Dad, Pappa, Pappy, Big G little O, El Jefe, Fuckin’ Asshole and too many others to list in this format.

    • Gary Olson says

      Oh…and one more thing. Almost everyday there is something so alarming on the MSM it makes me pee pee a little bit on myself. How is that even possible? I mean…almost every DAY!

      • Gary Olson says

        I learned a long time ago to NEVER ask the question I don’t want to know the answer to, but I am going to break that rule. Is this what you had in mind when you helped elect Our Dear Leader?

        I mean…every reasonable person suspected he was Arizona Road Lizard CRAZY, but he is exceeding everyone’s expectations…by a lot.

        Here is just one really small example that struck a chord with me because of my age.

        You do know they were shipping Australians home in body bags from our war in the former colony of French Indochina that was run Michelin to make tires while that coke whore was snortin’ lines and bangin’ models in Club 54 (or was it bangin’ lines of coke and snortin’ whores…I bet he was too fucked up most of the time to know the difference) on five (5) separate bogus deferments his daddy Morebucks paid for…right?

        What kind of an American can’t get along with the Australians for God’s sake! What comes next…declaring war on Canada? I mean…the cray fuck has already threatened to invade Mexico. I would support that if his Spawn of Satan ( Don Jr. and Eric) will lead the invasion force.

        • Gary Olson says

          I really hate to make this personal for you Woodsman, but you are my people. And I pray to God you don’t have any sons and maybe any daughters if you help that madman get another four years as the most powerful person on the planet and maybe even finish out his first four.

          From your descriptions of where you live (rural Red America), your job (working class) and your socioeconomic status…your kids are exactly who that madman will send to die in a foreign land for reasons you won’t even be able to understand once you strip the red, white and blue bunting off of his lies.

          I’m not even going down the road that there is no question in my mind he has been fully compromised by the Russian intelligence services and Putin owns him…that is too scary for me to even think about for very long…whoops, I just had a little accident and it wasn’t just a little pee pee. I pissed all over myself thinking about what Putin is going to get him to do to us…fuck me and call me Sally!

          • Gary Olson says

            Whoops, I was too shook up from pissing myself to even get my very own catch phrase I made up right,

            Fuck me silly and call me Sally! (C. G. Olson, Circa 1976)

            • Gary Olson says

              OK…I want you to stay with me for just a little while longer. YOU people voted for Trump because he is such a great businessman who makes great decisions, picks the best people, and will do the best job to make America Great Again…right?

              I want you to think about something with complete and total objectivity for just a few minutes…OK.

              President Trump selected the point man for his administration and our entire nation to be the guy who didn’t stop to think that the phone calls and text messages he is making to the fuckin’ Russian Ambassador to the United States are going to be monitored by our intelligence services in and around Washington D.C.!!!

              This same guy was a Three Star General and was in charge of military intelligence for our war of choice in Iraq for God’s sake! And then he ran the Defense Intelligence Agency, which is just one (1) of something like seventeen (17) separate U.S. Intelligence services that are all headquartered within a 50 mile radius of where the fuckin’ Russian Ambassador normally operate

              I mean…everyone who doesn’t live in a Cone Of Silence knows (thanks to Edward Snowden if for no other reason AND the movie they made about him) that the NSA listens to what everybody says whenever the fuck they want to. That is how they put those Hellfire misses from the Predator and Reaper drones down the dung burning stove pipes of those Islamic terrorists and send them them to hell while their playin’ stinky finger.with each other in shit hole backwater of the tribal lands in all of those shithole “Stan” countries like Arizonistan.

              Who the fuck doesn’t about that and you don’t have to be a former Lt. General who ran G2 for all of Iraq…you just have to go to the fuckin’ movies once in a while or whatch TV…sometimes.

              And then he gets caught…gee whiz, who the fuck could see that one coming…assures our Vice President he only talked about the weather and never even brought up, “oh yeah, and don’t worry about those sanctions because they are good as gone when we get in office…so”, so the VP goes on all of the talk shows and puts his credibility with the American people on the line…and now he can’t be sure he didn’t talk about lifting the sanctions with the fuckin’ Russian Ambassador because he can’t remember what they talked about.

              Forget about all of the reasons why this was a bad idea and how many laws were violated…and just think about how FUCKIN’ STUPID CAN THIS FLYN GUY CAN BE?

              But he can’t be stupid…that isn’t possible. They say he was the greatest intelligence officer of his generation. So…then, you have to ask yourself just how bad is his JUDGEMENT AND JUST HOW BAD IS THE JUDGEMENT OF THE MAN WHO MADE SOMEONE LIKE THAT THE POINT MAN FOR ALL U.S. INTELLIGENCE THAT IS SUPPOSED TO KEEP ALL OF US SAFE!

              What the fuck am I missing in this equation?

              • Gary Olson says

                Well…even I can recognize my Trump Tracking is NOT healthy so I am going to check out again. It’s just been raining and cold here in the Dunes so I have been watching Way to much of the lyin’ fake news MSM.

                I really do need to switch over and start drinking the Fox News(?) Kool Aid. Where cain I order that anyway? Does it come in a powder that is water soluble? Or is it more like a big tube of shit I have to squeeze into my mouth?

                I am guessing from the Woodsman’s rant about Whoopee do fuckin’ ding dong are we going to start following the Constitution now…fuck me silly and call me Sally (paraphrased) that he was referring to Obama’s use of Presidential Orders to circumvent Congress, but that is just a guess?

                So…my question is (after noting Our Dear Leaders excessive use of Presidential Orders in his first three years in office, it has been at least that long…right? Frankly, I have lost track of time) do two Constitutional Wrongs make a Constitutional Right?

                And I didn’t make it through today without making a little pee pee on myself when I heard Our Dear Leader was openly discussing the latest North Korean missle crisis in public in a busy restaurant with the Prime Minister of Japan and it looked like the New England Patriots owner Bob (if you aren’t cheating, you aren’t trying hard enough) Kraft and their bimbo’s, I mean Mrs. Abe and Our Dear Leaders bimbo.

                I wonder what level of security clearance most of the people in that restaurant have? I know what I had to go through every five years to keep my Top Secret security clearance and it was about as pleasant as I would imagine it would be to have a gerbil crawl up my ass (please note how I worded that although IF I ever did have a gerbil crawl up my ass, I would tell you because you are among my closest friends and confidants and I am off the Rez so I have nothing to hide…anymore)!

                Some of the fake news MSM call Mar-a-Largo Our Dear Leaders “estate” and nothing could be further from the truth. Anybody with an Amex card and more money than brains (unless they have an ulterior motives…say like about half of the worlds security services including those of our “friends and allies, if the fuckin’ Canadians are smart they will start tracking Our Dear Leaders calls and conversations) in addition to all of the people who pay the two hundred grand to have memberships there (at Mar-a-Largo) so whatever Mar-a-Largo is…it is not Trumps estate…it is a commercial hotel and resort with a fancy restaurant where they won’t let my people stay or even eat (sorry Woodsman) and they serve snails and fish eggs and call it food.

              • Gary Olson says

                Sooooooooo……who out there in cyber land thinks Lt. General Michael Flynn who was a three star career military lifer who lived and died for his entire adult life by a strict chain-of-command thinks he was on a one mission to interface with the fuckin’ Russians on his own accord…a loose cannon?

                And who thinks he was on a specific mission under the direct control of POTUS and was acting on and speaking on his behalf, with not only his knowledge and support, but acting under his (POTUS) direct control?


                • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

                  Reply to Gary Olson says
                  February 13, 2017 at 10:11 pm

                  >> Reply to Gary Olson…
                  >> Sooooooooo……who out there in cyber land
                  >> thinks Lt. General Michael Flynn who was
                  >> a three star career military lifer who lived
                  >> and died for his entire adult life by a strict
                  >> chain-of-command thinks he was on a one
                  >> mission to interface with the fuckin’ Russians
                  >> on his own accord…a loose cannon?

                  And just HOURS after the man he and his boss think was born in Kenya actually ‘announced’ the ‘sanctions’ for the known ‘help’ another country gave in getting them elected?

                  Hmmmm…. let me see…

                  ( Hand NOT raised ).

                  >> And who thinks he was on a specific mission
                  >> under the direct control of POTUS and was
                  >> acting on and speaking on his behalf, with not
                  >> only his knowledge and support, but acting
                  >> under his (POTUS) direct control?

                  ( Hand raised ).

                  And if anyone also thinks ( tonight ) that the ‘resignation’ negotiations that were obviously going on all today didn’t include some ‘promise’ of a PARDON for Flynn if/when he is arrested for violating the Logan Act and/or arrested for outright TREASON…

                  …then ( as I said in my other post above )… I have some Mar-A-Lago ski-lift tickets to sell you.

                  I actually have access to some actual Donald Dumpster ‘supporters’… and even THEY have confided they have had to change their underwear many times recently…

                  ….and some of those underwear changes were when they were actually watching Saturday Night Live.

                  It’s nice to see SNL ‘relevant’ again.

              • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

                Reply to Gary Olson post on
                February 13, 2017 at 7:17 am

                >> Gary Olson said…
                >> OK…I want you to stay with me for just a little
                >> while longer. YOU people voted for Trump
                >> because he is such a great businessman who
                >> makes great decisions, picks the best people,
                >> and will do the best job to make America Great
                >> Again…right?
                >> I want you to think about something with complete
                >> and total objectivity for just a few minutes…OK.
                >> President Trump selected the point man for his
                >> administration and our entire nation to be the guy
                >> who didn’t stop to think that the phone calls and
                >> text messages he is making to the fuckin’ Russian
                >> Ambassador to the United States are going to be
                >> monitored by our intelligence services in and
                >> around Washington D.C.!!!
                >> What the fuck am I missing in this equation?

                Of course he ‘stopped and thought about it’.

                For anyone who thinks a former head of the Defense Intelligence Agency didn’t know there was a high likelihood that anything he might have said over ANY telephone line that gets answered inside the US Russian Embassy in Washington would NOT be ‘fully recorded’ by BOTH the US and the Russian Intelligence services… then I have some ski lift tickets to sell you for Mar-A-Lago.

                So now that Flynn has been thrown under the bus just like Donald Dumpster flushes his own undocumented workers down the toilet there at ‘Mar-A-Lago’ on a regular basis… there really is only one big question remaining.

                WHY did Flynn still feel like it was okay to jump on a most-likely-to-be-recorded telephone line anyway, and tell the Russians not to ‘worry’ about the Obama sanctions put in place for Russia knowingly ‘helping’ the Dumpster win the election?

                Gee….. I dunno… let’s take some ‘guesses’.

                1. Maybe because the person you helped get elected and who has now elevated your failed career as an intelligence officer to the most important ‘intelligence’ assignment in this country simply TOLD you to make the call(s) just hours after the guy who you BOTH think was born in Kenya put the sanctions into place?

                2. ( This is actually part of #1 ) Maybe because the guy TELLING you to make the calls and who is so stupid that he thinks you can’t even trace hackers unless you catch them in act is also now the same guy who can PARDON you if any shit hits the fan like you going on trial for violations of the Logan Act and/or actual TREASON charges? ( Both of which could still happen if Flynn doesn’t wander over to Arlington and eat his gun ) ?

                3. ( This is long shot… but also possible ) Maybe because, as just a Director of ONE of the Intelligence agencies ( the DIA )… you THOUGHT that no other agency had ‘cracked’ the telecom at the Russian embassy… and so you still THOUGHT that YOUR call to the Russian ambassador would NOT be ‘recorded’… but since you were just DIA and not NSA you had no idea that you were WRONG… and that every word you would say WOULD be recorded by the NSA?

                SIDENOTE: The DIA guys/gals are good… but as compared to the guys/gals over at the NSA… the DIA folks might as well consider themselves as employees at Radio Shack.

                4. ( This is actually part of #3 ) Maybe that along with only THINKING you were ‘safe’ to make the call ( as just a DIA flunkee Director and not a real NSA guy )… you also then didn’t realize that the narcissistic sociopath that you tied your wagon to when you started the “Lock Her Up” chant at his convention would then also FIRE the ‘acting Attorney General’… who had already been ADVISED of the content of your telephone conversations with the Russian Ambassador?

                Not exactly the ‘someone’ you want suddenly ‘cut loose’ by your 13-year-old-trapped-in-a-71-and-a-half-year-old-body boss and now free to ‘back-channel’ the MSM, eh?

                5. ( Maybe this is actually the simplest explanation ).
                He ( Flynn ) just didn’t care. His new chance to create this new ‘world order’ that he and Steve Bannon and Bannon’s own ‘Reichland Minister of Information’ Stephen Miller have beenworking so hard on was just too much of a driving force for Flynn to stop and worry about pesky crap like ‘laws’ and whatnot.

                Flynn is ( and has been for some time ) simply ‘out there’.

                It’s the reason he was forced to RESIGN as Defense Intelligence Director in the first place, which then led him to fire up his own ‘Global Intelligence’ company with his own bat-crap crazy son and go to work for BOTH the Turkish government AND the Russians. ( Putins version of FOX NEWS, RT Television, etc. ).

                In his waning days at DIA… Flynn’s ‘intelligence assesments’ were known to contain nothing but what his colleagues started to call ‘Flynn Facts’.

                As in… delusions that Flynn was trying to pawn off as ‘facts’.

                It reached the point where his ‘Intelligence Assesments’ were nothing but reprints of the same bat-shit crazy stuff Steve Bannon was printing on a daily basis over at ‘Breitbart’.

                Anyway… all of the above are just ‘educated guesses’… but you were wondering what you might be ‘missing’… so there are just some ‘suggestions’ to think about.

                The karma is building fast.

                Even faster than I thought it would.

                And we all know that when you base a campaign on nothing but racism, bigotry and hatred… the ‘karma’ most often turns out to be a WHOPPING ( non-gender specific, of course ) bitch.

                • Gary Olson says

                  I for one have my hand raised to pardon General Flynn. Something made him go off the rails, but he is a true American hero and patriot. I personally think he let his very well earned hatred of Islamic terrorists cloud his judgement.

                  Four Star General Barry McCaffrey, who has been critical of General Flynn has described his military intelligence service and that of special operations commander General Stanley McChrystal as being a very effective and particularly deadly team who destroyed so many of our enemies in both Iraq and Afghanistan.

                  We all owe General Flynn our deepest respect and gratitude for his stellar military service to our nation. His subsequent civilian service…not so much.

                  • Gary Olson says

                    In other words, I think General Flynn was prepared to sell out the Crimea and the rest of Ukraine, Georgia, Moldova and the entire Balkan Pennisula in addition to perhaps Poland and the Baltic countries of Estonia, Latvia and Lithuania and maybe even Finland in exchange for an alliance with the white, Christian radical Islamic hating and powerful nuclear armed Russian Federation led by a stone cold killer of epic proportions…Vladimir Putin.

                    Would it have been worth it for U.S. Who the fuck knows, that is way over my pay grade?

                    But I have got to admit, it does sound a little crazy when I add up what I think Flynn was going to give up to buy the help of that rat faced bastard Putin. Just sayin….

                    • says

                      As I am watching the current news about Flynn and Trump and the role of investigative journalists in this issue I am wondering what it will take to bring about the whole truth of the Yarnell Hill Fire?
                      Will key people such as Eric Panabaker,
                      blue Ridge hotshots,Brendan (doughnut) and others not interviewed by the investigations be subpoenaed to testify and answer important questions?

                    • Gary Olson says

                      Unfortunately Diane, I think I can say without fear of being guilty of using hyperbole that no one, other than a few of us who participate here are not only comfortable, but completely happy with the status quo.

                      And the status quo is essentially the following;

                      “The Yarnell Hill Fire burned with the intensity and unpredictability that was impossible to predict in advance and therefore the deaths that resulted from this extreme fire behavior were a tragic accident that was impossible to prevent.

                      No one who was involved in the suppression efforts of the Yarnell Hill Fire, from either on the Granite Mountain Hotshots, actual fire overhead team or the agencies responsible for these suppression efforts did anything wrong, nor was there anything they could have done differently to foresee or prevent this terrible tragedy.”

                      The following is a partial list of those who support the preceding statement.

                      1. Arizona State Division of Forestry

                      2. Governor of Arizona

                      3. Arizona State Legislature

                      4. Almost every citizen of Arizona and every other State of Arizona employee or official led by Senator Karen Fann and Speaker Shit For Brains Tobin.

                      5. Main Stream Media led by the Arizona Republic, Prescott Courier and Arizona television stations.

                      6. Yavapai Couty officials led by the Sheriff’s Office, Cental Yavapai Fire Department and the County Board of Supervisors and almost every county resident.

                      7. The City of Prescott Mayor, City Council , City Manager
                      City Attorney, City Fire Department and almost all citizens of the city.

                      8. The U.S. Forest Service, the Bureau of Land Management, everyone else in the USDA, the USDI and all of their attorneys, officials, managers and all other employees plus everyone else who works for the federal government as either an employee or in an elected official.

                      9. All family members of the 19 Granite Mountain Hotshots who were burned alive and coughed up their own burning lung tissue so hard they detached their tongues from the back of their mouths with the exception of Mrs. McKee who was taken advantage of and/or cheated by almost everyone who was charged with finding some way to help or mitigate the resulting family disaster which included but was not limited to, the Arizona 100 Club, attorney Alex Vakula, City of Prescott officials and the State of Arizona officials, the Arizona Court system and a bunch of other people, all of whom I, Gary L. Olson personally think are dirty low down worthless bags of swine excrement who should all be tarred and feather and then run out of the state on a rail and a bunch of other really bad and disgusting things I am to ashamed to type out in this format and all of you know I have not found anything before now that has ashamed me so it must be really, really, really bad.

                      Everyone else who has any power or influence in Prescott, Yavapai County, the State of Arizona or the federal government and a bunch of other people but I am tired of this whole 1 finger typing thing.

                      I am holding out for the best Apple computer money can buy with all related peripherals, attachments, and bells and whistles because I am so sick and tired of constantly spending an inordinate amount of time fuckin’ around with PC’s.

                      So…if you have four thousand dollars or any part thereof, you want to contribute to my, “Buy Gary a bitchin’ (non gender specific) Apple Computer” please email me at

                      If on the other hand, you are an attorney representing the Arizona 100 Club, Prescott Arizona attorney Alex Vakula, or any one else I may have offended please call me at 1-800-EAT-SHIT to discuss terms of a settlement.

                      Thank You


                      P.S., Yes you are correct. It rained today and was cold so I have just been hangin’ out. So, you know…fuck it. But at least I am not on Trump Watch tonight, it’s someone else’s turn but as usual I do appreciate WTKTT filling in so many blanks. Now…if I could just get him and the Woodsman off their dead asses my book project might get somewhere.

                    • Gary Olson says


                      Do you think I am an incredibly lonely, bored and pathetic person so l have to deliberately try to provoke people to fuck with me just so I have someone to interact with?

                      I think we know each other well enough and we are close enough you can and will tell me the truth. Do you think I am a sad person?

                    • Gary Olson says

                      Oh…and one more thing. LinkIn ask me again a couple of days ago if I wanted to link with Mrs. McKee’s dead son.

                      Which really pissed me off all over again. Actually that is hyperbole…it just made me feel sad.

                    • Gary Olson says

                      Oh…and one more thing. What I think is happening with LinkedIn, is that when I signed up with them, I must have given them authorization to send crawler sniffer bots inside my computer’s hard drive to match names they find there with the same names registered with their service.

                      So it is all done automatically with one computer communicating with another and comparing their files. Kind of spooky…huh?

                      I think this will periodically continue until a person who is authorized to do so…tells LinkedIn that Grant McKee was burned alive on the Yarnell Hill Fire due to the extreme incompetence of those whose
                      duty and responsibility it was to properly recruit, train, manage, supervise and lead him into situations that are frequently managed by Chaos where the SNAFU and FUBAR, which are further complicated and made even more challenging and dangerous by REMF.

                      But the Granite Mountain Hotshot management tea catastrophically failed in the most basic task of leading a hotshot crew into battle because all of the problems I listed above are present to varying degrees on every large complex campaign wildfire…and hotshots are just expected to deal with them while still fighting fire aggressively but providing for safety first.

                      The only thing wrong with my theory about how LinkedIn works, is that their computer keeps trying to link me with people like Jenna Jameson, Mia Malcova and Alexis Texas?
                      And I don’t even know who these people are, much less personally know them, or know of them, so…

    • Gary Olson says

      Fuck me silly and call me Sally…this tablet misspelled El Oso. This auto correct on this iPad is driving me fuckin’ crazy…and I don’t have far to go. Actually…typing with one finger on this fuckin’ thing is about to drive me crazy for keeps.

      I am actually a pretty good typist on a regular computer but mine crapped out a few months ago (yes…I told you all about it) because I took a typing class at the Santa Fe Community College (but I dropped out of class when I hit 30 words per minute) when I I went from being a hotshot crew boss to an office worker…talk about a hard fuckin’ transition,

      I never was worth a shit as an office worker (even in my second career) and I think everybody knew that about me but they felt sorry for me and I was pretty good in the field so they let me slide on the office work part.

      The USFS isn’t worth a flyin’ fuck in general but almost all FIRE people (including most of those who don’t work for the USFS, except for those dipshits they call Battalion Chiefs…right Woodsman) are the salt of the earth! Even if you fuckers still haven’t told me what the fuck happened to our crew on the YHF.

      • says

        You asked if i thought you are a lonely,pathetic person that provokes others to interact with you and do I think you are a sad person.
        My answer, since you asked is that you ,along with many of us who are retired and aging, are searching for relevance in your life where you can bring your experience to make a difference.
        You have helped me understand what the hotshots experienced as they were dying–I might have concluded that they died very quickly from noxious gases and superheated air without your information. It spotlights the enormity of the wrong done to the hotshots and the need to find justice for them. You seem committed to make this right for them in spite of all the roadblocks.

        • says

          Perhaps I am naive in my thinking but it seems to me that what people want most regarding the Yarnell Hill Fire is the truth pure and simple— continued attempts to brush it under the rug is an insult to the men that died.

          • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

            Reply to Diane Lomas post on February 16, 2017 at 1:07 pm

            >> Diane Lomas said…
            >> Perhaps I am naive in my thinking but it seems to me that
            >> what people want most regarding the Yarnell Hill Fire is the
            >> truth pure and simple

            Some ‘people’ still do… but ( as Gary was pointing out ) some ‘people’ do not… and they NEVER have ( wanted to know the truth ).

            Knowing EXACTLY what happened to cause a group of men who were supposed to be highly trained wildland firefighters to ignore all the established rules of their own profession and die horribly on the floor of an explosive fuel-filled blind box canyon still represents the BEST way to try, as much as humanly possible, to make sure nothing similar ever happens again.

            But first… you have to WANT to make sure ( as much as humanly possible ) that it never happens again.

            If you really don’t even CARE if it ever happens again… then you also don’t care what really happened in Yarnell.

            The moniker I have always used to participate in this public discussion is still exactly the way I feel about it.

            I ( for one ) still “Want To Know The Truth’.

            There are still LIVES at stake.

            “All truths are easy to understand once they are discovered.
            The POINT is to DISCOVER them.”
            Galileo Galilei

            “Truths and roses both have thorns about them… but neither should ever be avoided,”
            Henry David Thoreau

            “Truth will always be truth, regardless of lack of understanding, disbelief or ignorance.”
            W. Clement Stone

            >> Diane Lomas also said…
            >> continued attempts to brush it under the rug is
            >> an insult to the men that died.

            Totally agree.

            Anyone who has either already lied or is still withholding information about what really happened in Yarnell on Sunday, June 30, 2013… should be ashamed of themselves.

              • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

                There is no ‘expiration date’ for ‘Wanting To Know The Truth’ about what really happened in Yarnell on June 30, 2013.

                As long as people are being asked to ‘suit up’ and go trapsing into the boondock to fight wildland fires… it will ALWAYS remain important to know EXACTLY how the leadership decisions and failures in Yarnell contributed to so many lives being lost… and WHY so many young men, who had put their faith in that same ‘leadership’, never got to live out the rest of their lives.

        • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

          Reply to Diane Lomas post on February 15, 2017 at 3:50 pm

          >> Diane Lomas said…
          >> You have helped me understand what the hotshots experienced
          >> as they were dying–I might have concluded that they died very
          >> quickly from noxious gases and superheated air without
          >> your information. It spotlights the enormity of the wrong done
          >> to the hotshots and the need to find justice for them.

          ‘Died very quickly’ is relative.

          It depends on what your definition of ‘very quickly’ is.

          Some people ( firefighters included ) think that ‘dying from the inhalation of noxious gases and/or superheated air’ is like some kind of ‘light switch’.

          That the moment your lungs fill with what is going to kill you… you simply ‘turn off’ like a light switch.

          That is not the case ( as Gary pointed out above and as the Yarnell-related autopsy reports confirm ).

          Just take the case of ‘drowning’.

          Same thing. Most people think that when your lungs fill with the water that is going to now kill you… that you simply ‘turn off’ like a light switch.

          Again… that is NOT the case.

          Even people who have ‘come back from the dead’ in drowning related incidents have verified that you remain fully conscious while you witness your own brain-stem survival functions kick in to try and save your life and ‘expel’ whatever it is in your lungs that is trying to kill you.

          And it’s not pretty.

          The published autopsy reports related to the tragedy in Yarnell on June 30, 2013, should be REQUIRED READING for anyone who wants to be a wildland firefighter.

          Indeed… when you take your ‘Shelter Training’ course… you should be REQUIRED to read those autopsy reports… every single word of them.

          The life that gets saved by doing that might be your own.

          I remember when I was being taught to drive a car.

          The ‘Drivers Education’ course at my high school REQUIRED us to watch a movie called ‘Mechanized Death’.

          It was not pretty… and that was the point.

          There was a ‘waiver form’ you could get signed by your parents if you did NOT want to watch this ‘movie’ about what can happen to the human body in various sorts of car accidents… but I have always been GLAD I chose to watch this movie. I believe it has made me a safer driver for my whole life.

          Anyone who participates in any activity where YOUR attention to SAFETY is the only thing that can prevent terrible things from happening to you and/or others SHOULD be made fully aware of what CAN happen if you IGNORE those ‘safety rules’.

          I suppose that even if wildland firefighter trainees can/should be REQUIRED to read those autopsy reports… there would still have to be some kind of ‘waiver form’ so that those who think they are ‘too delicate’ to read such a thing have a way to ‘opt out’… and that’s okay… but for most ‘trainees’ it would certainly behoove them to read those autopsy reports and KNOW what CAN happen if they ever ignore the rules of their profession.

          I believe it would make them ‘safer drivers’ out on the firelines.

        • Gary Olson says

          Well…you did a really good job of describing where I am at in my life…searching for meaning and relevance. And yes, I would very much like to re-write history and in my revision this tragedy would never have even have happened and the Granite Mountain Hotshots would still be alive to grow old with those who love them, just like almost all WF do.

          But…since that isn’t a possibility, I would at least like history and the rest of us to acknowledge what how much they suffered in the end and how they ended up deploying fire shelters in an area about the garage when they needed an area about the size of a horse pasture in which to successfully do so.

          And FYI, it was JD who fought for and ultimately got the autopsy reports from the establishment that revealed the truth…they suffered unimaginable pain and death was their best friend that day that finally released them from their agony.

          And it was WTKTT who read and interpreted those autopsy reports that made me understand exactly how much they suffered. All I did was write it in plain terms everyone can understand on this blog, because if they suffered the pain,the least I can do is acknowledge their suffering.

          And yes…until those reports were released, the common thinking on this blog was that they suffered very little, which makes us and everyone who loved them feel better, but it was a great disservice to their memory. It was understood here that they were hit by a fast moving blast of superheated air that instantly collapsed their lungs and they simply died. I guess this has happened some of the times WF died, that kind of sounds like that was how it is believed the 14 on the South Canyon Fire died, but that is probably a lie as well.

          I honestly believe that if Eric Marsh could speak to us…he would want the truth told in order to save WF lives in the future by stripping any heroics or misconceptions from the bare truth so everyone can easily understand exactly what happened and thereby lessen the chances the very same thing will happen a FOURTH time to a hotshot crew.

          They say history doesn’t repeat itself…but it rhymes. One time is an anomaly, two times is a coincidence, and the three times is a pattern. Somebody I have a lot of respect for told me in a sidebar email that they thought my role here and in writing about what happened in a book was one more assignment for me from our fire gods.

          Oh…and one more thing. Even though Fred, Bob, the Woodsman and I have had some public slap fights like little bitches (non gender specific) behind the scene, we have remained as brothers from other mothers. WF are like a lot of other organized gangs…it’s blood in and blood out.

          • Gary Olson says

            Oh…and one more thing Diane,

            I think of the way the WF culture has described how WF die as being similar to what is known as minimization by criminals to describe their culpability in their crimes.

            Everywhere you look in the case of the YHF…those who were partly responsible have done their best to minimize their participation in everything that went wrong that day. And it was literally everything in the cascading and sequential falling of dominoes, one right after the other.

            Investigators are trained in interrogation techniques that encourages this type of behavior. For example, if someone is describing how they raped and murdered a girl, but they also explain they didn’t mean for it to happen and it was her fault because she screamed…the investigator agrees by saying something like, “That’s right… it’s wasn’t your fault, you just did what she made you do, if you were really an evil person, why heck…you would have cut her up and eaten her too! But you didn’t do that, in fact, you covered her up with dirt so she wouldn’t be laying out exposed. You not really a bad person, we can work this out together.”

            And pretty soon, everybody is on the same page and the investigator has bonded with the bad guy while they work together to fill in the blanks.

            Minimization…listen for it wherever and whenever guilty people are trying to hide the truth and their own culpability. .

            • Gary Olson says

              And just to be clear since I might be assuming everyone knows what I am referring to with my reference above, this is the third time in history I believer the same exact thing has happened in the same exact way for the same exact reasons to hotshot crews.

              This is my count, even though there have been four disaster fires that involved hotshot crews in history.

              My list goes like this;

              The Loop Fire of 1966, 12 El Cariso Hotshots burned alive and several others seriously burned because of hotshot crew boss hubris and agency mismanagement.

              The Battlement Creek Fire of 1976, 3 Mormon Lake Hotshots burned alive and a fourth seriously burned because of hotshot crew boss hubris and agency mismanagement.

              The South Canyon Fire of 1994, 9 Prineville Hotshots burned alive along with two helitack and 3 smokejumpers. Incident Commander stupidity, inexperience and agency mismanagement.

              The Yarnell Hill Fire of 2013, 19 Granite Mountain Hotshots burned alive because of hotshot crew boss hubris and agency mismanagement.

              And that is why I always say, “One time is an anomaly, two times is a coincidence, and the three times is a pattern.”

              There will be a fourth time, it’s only a question of when and then everyone will have to ask themselves, “What could I have done to prevent this from happening a fourth time?”

              • Gary Olson says

                Oh…and one more thing Diane, just in case you weren’t with us the last time I wrote about the following, which I am planning on detailing out in my highly acclaimed and much anticipated tome, “Rise of the Hybrid Firefighters.”

                Even though I consider the South Canyon Fire, which most people mistakenly call the Storm King Fire, an outlier fire from the Loop, the Battlement Creek and the Yarnell Hill Fires, it was eerily similar to the Battlement Creek Fire in terms of the primary factors as well as contributing factors in the deaths of the WF.

                The ones that jump into my mind are as follows;

                1. These fires were less than 40 miles apart.

                2. The significant presence of Fuel Type X, which was known to burn so hot it could carry carry fire wildfire fast enough to run down and kill adult Mule deer.

                3. Out of state WF which included the Prineville Hotshots who were from Oregon, who were unfamiliar with the fuel types on the fire, especially Fuel Type X (frost killed Gambel Oak).

                4. Working above an uncontrolled wildfire during the burning period which was the hottest and windiest part of the day.

                5. Inadequate look outs and failure to follow multiple WF safety guidelines and rules.

                6. Both fires burned in early to mid July.

                7. Both fires were mis-management by the BLM.

                8. Neither fire had pre-determined escape routes or safety zones that were realistic for WF to be able to get to.

  8. WantsToKnowTheTruth says


    Followup to the post directly below, which contains just a TEXT version of the document filed with the Arizona Supreme Court.

    InvestigativeMEDIA has now run an article on this filing….

    Article Title: Mother of deceased Granite Mountain Hotshot firefighter files petition with Arizona Supreme Court
    Published: February 4, 2017 – By John Dougherty

    There is a link in the article to a copy of the ACTUAL ( PDF ) document that was filed with the Arizona Supreme Court.

    A direct link to that copy of the ACTUAL document is as follows…

  9. WantsToKnowTheTruth says


    Below is a TEXT version of the actual ‘Petition for Review’ that has now been officially filed with the Arizona Supreme Court regarding the ‘wrongful death’ lawsuit being brought on behalf of deceased Granite Mountain Hotshot Grant McKee. The suit is being legally filed on Grant Mckee’s behalf by his biological mother, Marcia McKee.

    The document is now a PUBLIC document and can be viewed by anyone with a valid PACER ( Public Access To Court Records ) account… but for those who don’t have one… a TEXT version of the complete ‘Petition for Review’ is now included below.

    NOTE: This TEXT version of the document is being shown here with the complete and full ‘permission’ of Marcia McKee herself.

    There were two EXHIBITS also included in this ‘Petition for Review’ submitted to the Arizona Supreme Court. Those lengthy EXHIBITS are simply copies of other already-existing PUBLIC documents and this TEXT version of the ‘Petition’ just ‘summarizes’ those documents.

    The document gives at least FOUR reasons WHY the Arizona Supreme Court should rule that the Arizona Appeals Court has erred in their recent decision to NOT allow this ‘wrongful death’ lawsuit to proceed to trial.

    Those FOUR reasons are ‘summarized’ in the very first paragraphs of the ‘Petition’.

    Here are those ‘summations’ ( in order ) from the top of the document…


    The Court should grant the petition because the Court of Appeals’ Opinion conflicts
    with a 2006 Opinion by Division Two finding no waiver of a widow’s right to sue an
    employer for wrongful death of her employee husband, although the widow was entitled to
    workers’-compensation death benefits—and had actually applied for them. MA Cab
    Service, Inc. v. Industrial Comm ‘n, 213 Ariz. 342 (App. 2006).


    This is exactly what ‘State Supreme Courts’ are FOR.

    Resolve ‘conflicts of justice’ being delivered by other courts in the State.

    ‘Division One’ of the Arizona Court of Appeals has just recently ruled AGAINST Marcia McKee when the ‘other’ Division ( Division Two ) of the same damn Appeals Court ruled in the exact opposite way in an almost identical case that THEY ‘reviewed’.

    So now the Arizona Supreme Court has to decided WHICH of their own two ‘Court of Appeals’ Divisions might have had their heads up their asses.

    In other words… ‘Division One’ of the Appeals Court didn’t seem to give a damn what the OTHER ‘Division’ of the same Arizona Appeals Court had ALREADY decided in a previous case… and if Marcia McKee’s case had simply been heard by that ‘other Division’ of the same damn Court then it would probably already be headed back to TRIAL, as it should.

    So yea… time for the ‘Supremes’ in Arizona to weigh in.

    Here are the OTHER ‘summaries’ at the top of the document…

    Second, another recurring issue of statewide importance supporting the petition’s grant is Division One’s approval of Intergovernmental Agreements between cities and the State without the required, specific city approval of the duration of the IGAs, in violation of A.R.S. 11-952(F)’s plain words.

    This is probably the most complicated ‘legal’ argument still ‘attached’ to this case and it has to do with ‘Intergovernmental Agreements’ ( IGAs ) like the one that was ( supposedly ) in place between The City of Prescott ( the owners of the Granite Mountain Hotshots ) and Arizona Forestry ( the owners of the 2013 Yarnell Hill Fire and one of the ‘Employers’ involved on the day the 19 GM Hotshots died ). See the full document below for the ongoing ‘arguments’ here about IGAs.

    Third, Division One failed to allow jury resolution of the employer’s “willful misconduct,” a purely fact-based defense to employer immunity

    This is another BIG one… and another one of the ‘issues’ that can now ONLY be decided by the State ‘Supreme Court’.

    It’s the CATCH-22 issue whereby the Arizona State Constitution has ‘definitions’ in it about when someone is allowed to at least have their ‘day in court’ over a ‘wrongful death’ allegation that are in complete CONTRADICTION with each other.

    When you have these kinds of blatant CONTRADICTIONS in a ‘State Constitution’… only a State Supreme Court can ‘decide’ the ‘issues’.

    This is the part of the ‘Petition’ that also has the potential to go all the way up to the actual United States Supreme Court.

    Only SOME States have these kinds of ‘contradictions’ regarding ‘wrongful death’ suits… and that is what the US Supreme Court is FOR. Only THEY can decide if some States in the Union should be allowed to be doing things one way… while others abridge their US/State citizens rights. ( See “Equal Justice and Protection Under the Law’ in the US Constitution ( Bill of Rights ).

    Fourth, Division One has limited the intentional-infliction-of-emotional-distress tort in
    ways that will adversely affect tort litigants and cases across Arizona


    This is the ‘issue’ that still includes the fact that there is clear evidence of a potential ‘coverup’ on the part of Arizona Forestry ( and US Forestry ) in the aftermath of the Yarnell tragedy, the details of which can ONLY be fully known if/when this case is ALLOWED to PROCEED.


    Due to LENGTH… it will take a couple of ‘Replies’ ( below ) to display the entire document.

    So here it is ( starting with the next ‘Reply’ )…

    • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

      8777 North Gainey Center Drive, Suite 165
      Scottsdale, Arizona 85258, (480) 991-7677
      David L. Abney, Esq. (009001) — abney (at)
      Attorneys for Petitioners / Plaintiffs / Appellants


      Case No.: ( TBA )

      Petitioners / Plaintiffs / Appellants

      MARCIA McKEE, the surviving mother of
      GRANT QUINN McKEE, both individually
      and on behalf of all statutory beneficiaries
      of GRANT QUINN McKEE, deceased,


      Respondents / Defendants / Appellees.

      STATE OF ARIZONA, a public entity; and
      DIVISION, apublic entity,

      Arizona Court of Appeals, Div. One
      Case No. 1 CA-CV 15-0800

      Maricopa County Superior Court
      CV 2014-009068, CV 2014-009069 and
      CV 2014-009070 (consolidated)
      Hon. J. Richard Gama


      The Court should grant the petition because the Court of Appeals’ Opinion conflicts with a 2006 Opinion by Division Two finding no waiver of a widow’s right to sue an employer for wrongful death of her employee husband, although the widow was entitled to workers’ compensation death benefits—and had actually applied for them. MA Cab Service, Inc. v. Industrial Comm ‘n, 213 Ariz. 342 (App. 2006).

      Second, another recurring issue of statewide importance supporting the petition’s grant is Division One’s approval of Intergovernmental Agreements between cities and the State without the required, specific city approval of the duration of the IGAs, in violation of A.R.S. 11-952(F)’s plain words. Third, Division One failed to allow jury resolution of the employer’s “willful misconduct,” a purely fact-based defense to employer immunity. Fourth, Division One has limited the intentional-infliction-of-emotional-distress tort in ways that will adversely affect tort litigants and cases across Arizona

      The Four Issues

      Intergovernmental Agreement (“IGA”). An Arizona city can make an IGA with the State turning one of its firefighters into a temporary State employee. But to do that, the city must first pass an ordinance or resolution “approving” the IGA’s “duration.” A.R.S 11-952(F). If the city fails to do that, the IGA cannot even “be filed or become effective.” Id.

      But Prescott passed no ordinance approving the purported IGA’s duration. Thus, Grant McKee was never a State employee and the State has no employer-based immunity from suit under A.R.S. 23-1022(A). Did the trial court and Court of Appeals err by finding the State had employer immunity under A.R.S. 23-1022(A)?

      Willful misconduct. The State’s misconduct killed Grant and his 18 Hot Shot companions. Marcia McKee alleged—and the Industrial Commission of Arizona found— that the State Forestry Division had committed willful misconduct. See Complaint 232-36 and Exh. 2. Should the jury have been allowed to determine that the State’s conduct was willful misconduct nullifying any A.R.S. 23-1022(A) immunity?

      Waiver. Grant McKee was an adult not dependent on his mother for support; she was not dependent on him for support. Neither asked for nor accepted any workers’ compensation benefits. Thus, no waiver occurred of Marcia’s A.R.S. 12-611 right to sue the State for causing her son’s wrongful death. Did the trial court and Court of Appeals err by finding waiver and approving immunity under A.R.S. 23-1022(A)?

      Intentional infliction of emotional distress. Is Marcia McKee entitled to assert claims for intentional infliction of emotional distress arising: (1) from the State causing her son to suffer a horrendous death or (2) from the State’s cover-up of its wrongdoing?

      ( Continued next ‘Reply’ )

    • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

      1. This Court should grant review because properly interpreting IGAs is a matter of statewide importance.

      The Court of Appeals found immunity because it held that a purported IGA between Prescott and the State transformed Grant from a Prescott firefighter into a temporary State employee. After all, a public agency’s employee who works under another public agency’s jurisdiction or control because of an IGA is deemed to be an employee of both agencies under the workers’ compensation immunity provisions. A.R.S. 23-1022(D).

      But grant of immunity to the State arose from misreading the plain words of A.R.S. 11-952(F), which provide that:

      Appropriate action by ordinance or resolution or otherwise pursuant to the laws applicable to the governing bodies of the participating agencies approving or extending the duration of the agreement or contract shall be necessary before any such agreement, contract or extension may be filed or become effective.

      Prescott did pass a resolution approving the IGA, under the IGA-approval statute, A.R.S. 11-952(A) (“[T]wo or more public agencies . . . may enter into agreements with one another for joint or cooperative action.”). This is the Prescott resolution:

      RESOLUTION NO. 2952


      WHEREAS, the parties hereto are empowered to enter Into cooperative intergovernmental agreements pursuant to ARS Section 37-623(E) for the prevention and suppression of wildfires on forest, wIld and agricultural lands; and

      WHEREAS, the CIly of Prescott operates a fire department within the corporate limits of the City of Prescott, and In close proximity to forest, wild and agricultural lands; and

      WHEREAS, It would be to the benefit of the citizens of Prescott and the citizens of the community for the City of Rescott to enter Into a cooperative intergovernmental agreement for the prevention and suppression of wfidfires on forest, wild and agricultural lands with the State Forester.


      SECTION 1. THAT, the City of Prescott hereby approves the Intergovernmental Agreement with the Arizona State Land Department – Fire Management Division for the prevention and suppression of wildfires on forest, wild and agrioultural lands, attached hereto as Exhibit “A”.

      SECTION 2, THAT, the Mayor and Staff we hereby authorized to execute the attached Intergovernmental Agreement and to take any and all steps deemed necessary to accomplish the above.

      PASSED, APPROVED AND ADOPTED by the Mayor and Council of the City of Prescott. Arizona, this 11th day of MARCH 1997.

      Signed: PAUL S. DALY, Mayor

      Signed: JUDY CARSON, Acting City Clerk

      Signed: JOHN R. MOFFITT, City Attorney


      But although Prescott approved the IGA, it never passed any ordinance or resolution “approving or extending the duration of the agreement.” A.R.S. 11-952(F). Thus, the IGA could not be “filed or become effective.” Id.

      Despite the statute’s actual words, the Court of Appeals held that “approving or extending the duration of the agreement” did not mean approving the duration of the agreement or extending the duration of the agreement, but instead meant “approving (1) the agreement, or (2) the duration of any extension of the agreement.” Opinion at 12.

      That rewriting of A.R.S. 11-952(F): (1) adds more to the statute than exists within it; (2) nullifies the need for specific action approving or extending the duration of an IGA before it can be filed or become effective; (3) violates the plain-meaning rule; and (4) ignores English grammar and usage. The Court of Appeals has effectively re-drafted the statute’s key phrase by adding two commas, changing the meaning of that phrase from its original “approving or extending the duration of the agreement” to “approving, or extending the duration of, the agreement.”

      In statutes, commas are not mere ornaments. In Braden, for example, this Court found the State immune from APSA claims based on one missing comma. Estate of Braden ex rel. Gabaldon v. State, 228 Ariz. 323, 326 12 (2011) (“The absence of a comma after the phrase ‘labor union’ makes a difference.”). “The plain meaning of a statute,” after all, “will typicalIy heed the commands of its punctuation.” Pawn 1st, L.L.C. v. City of Phoenix, 231 Ariz. 309, 311 16 (App. 2013).

      The two commas the Court of Appeals effectively added to the statute are not grammatically optional. Instead, adding them fundamentally changes the meaning. The Court of Appeals should have refused to rework the statute. See Int’l Chiropractors Ass’n v. N.M. Bd. of Chiro. Examiners, 323 P.3d 914, 923 (N.M. App. 2013) (Court declines invitation to “re-punctuate” a statute to add two commas that would “re-write” the statute to comport with its opinion on how the statute should be interpreted.).

      After all, there already is a statute dealing with approving an IGA. A.R.S. 11-952(A) (“two or more public agencies . . . may enter into agreements”). So there is no need to re-punctuate the statute dealing with approving or extending an IGA’s duration to turn it into yet another stature dealing with approving an IGA. As this Court has instructed, every phrase, clause, and sentence of a statute must be given meaning so no part will be redundant. Deer Valley Unified Sch. Dist. No. 97 v. Houser, 214 Ariz. 293, 295 8 (2007). Division One’s rewrite, however, creates a redundancy out of whole cloth.

      This Court should grant review since a strict, narrow interpretation of A.R.S. 11-952(F) is vital for cities and fire departments across Arizona because of the importance of the duration of IGAs. They should be as long as needed, and no longer. After all, IGAs alter the sovereign, legal, and financial rights: (1) of the State, (2) of local governing authorities with which the State is trying to make IGAs, and (3) of local employees and their families and loved ones.

      The State Forestry Division, which operates what amounts to a core skeleton staff depends on IGAs to obtain the innumerable firefighters needed to actually handle its vital wildfire containment efforts. Making sure there is proper approval of the duration of IGAs is thus a matter of statewide interest and importance supporting grant of this petition.

      ( Continued next ‘Reply’ )…

    • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

      2. This Court should grant review because whether an employer engaged in “willful misconduct” is an issue reserved for Arizona juries.

      Even if the purported IGA were valid—which it is not—under A.R.S. 23-1022(A), if an employer’s willful misconduct causes an employee’s injury, and the misconduct indicates willful disregard of the employee’s life, limb, or bodily safety, “the injured employee may either claim compensation or maintain an action at law for damages against the person or entity alleged to have engaged in the willful misconduct.” A.R.S. 23-1022(B) explains that: “Willful misconduct” in this context means “an act done knowingly and purposely with the direct object of injuring another.”

      The Opinion stated the Complaint “does not allege these acts were done knowingly and purposely with the direct object of injuring the firefighters.” Opinion 19. But Marcia specifically alleged the State committed “willful misconduct.” Complaint 236.

      Moreover, Marcia was not alone in alleging “willful misconduct.” The Industrial Commission of Arizona (“ICA”) investigated this disaster and officially found—as the Complaint alleged—that the State’s failure to protect the firefighters had caused their deaths and was not just “serious” misconduct, but misconduct that was both “serious” and “willful Complaint 232-35, 246. The ICA not only found willful and serious misconduct, it imposed an unprecedented penalty against the State Forestry Division of $25,000 for each firefighter it killed. A copy of the ICA ‘s “Citation and Notice of Penalty”—a public record subject to judicial notice—is attached as Exh. 2.

      As far as “willful misconduct” under A.R.S. 23-1022(A), Marcia has the right to have the jury decide intent, which does not need to be established by direct proof, and which the jury may determine and infer from all the facts and evidence. State v. Quatsling, 24 Ariz. App. 105, 108 (1975). See Harris v. Itzhaki, 183 F.3d 1043, 1051 (9th Ci r. 1999) (Intent “should be left to the jury.”). Here, reasonable jurors could conclude just what the ICA found, that the State’s conduct was “serious” and “willful.” For instance:

      – At about 1:00 p.m. on June 30, 2013, the Division Zulu Supervisor abandoned the Hotshots to their fate, fled to the incident command post, and never returned. Complaint at 164-68 (IR 1). Reasonable jurors could conclude that only someone who intended to injure the Hotshots would act so wantonly.

      – At about 3:58 p.m. on June 30, 2013, Air Tactical Group Supervisor Rory Collins left the firefighting effort with no explanation or proper turn-over and went to his Deer Valley home. Collins had been in charge of the aerial water and retardant drops needed to fight the fire and protect the Hotshots. Abandonment of his post left the Hotshots, including Grant, confronting death with no hope of rescue or safety. Complaint 207-10 (IR 1). Reasonable jurors could find he displayed “willful misconduct.”

      Because Marcia McKee’s case ended through a motion to dismiss, the Complaint’s facts asserting a basis for finding willful misconduct must be taken as true and all reasonable inferences from them must be taken in Marcia’s favor. Steinberger v. McVey ex rel. County of Maricopa, 234 Ariz. 125, 131 1123 (App. 2014).

      Moreover, a defendant’s “mental state must necessarily be ascertained by inference from all relevant surrounding circumstances.” In re William G., 192 Ariz. 208, 213 (App. 1997). A party is responsible for intentionally causing a harmful consequence if the party “knows or believes that the consequence is certain, or substantially certain, to result from [the party’s] act.” Restatement (Second) of Torts 870 at 280, cmt. b (1979). Intent is evident if a person acts “knowing that the consequence is substantially certain to result.” Restatement (Third) of Torts; Physical and Emotional Harm 1(b) at 3 (2010). It is an old story that deliberately leaving a person in danger’s path can show intent to kill. 2 Samuel 11:14-17 (King James 1611) (soldier deliberately left in harm’s way is killed).

      Here, a reasonable jury could find that State employees harbored an intent to injure amounting to “willful misconduct,” since they acted knowing the deaths of some or all of the Hotshots, including Grant, were substantially certain.

      ( Continued next ‘Reply’ )…

    • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

      3. Division One and Division Two are in direct conflict on when waiver arises when an employer’s misconduct kills an employee.

      Division One found waiver of the right to pursue a wrongful-death claim in a workers’ compensation case under circumstances where Division Two would find no waiver. AAA Cab Service, Inc. v. Industrial Commission, 213 Ariz. 342, 344 6 (App. 2006) (Because of “the legislative history of 23-1024(A), we conclude that, if the legislature had intended a final award to constitute an election of workers’ compensation, it would have included express language to that effect. This court cannot write a term into the statute that the legislature did not include.”). The importance of the waiver issue statewide—and the divisional conflict—support granting the petition for review.

      The conflict between Division One and Division Two involves the workers’ compensation waiver-of-immunity statute, A.R.S. 23-1024, which provides:

      A. An employee, or his legal representative in event death results, who accepts compensation waives the right to exercise any option to institute proceedings in court against his employer or any co-employee acting within the scope of his employment, or against the employer’s workers’ compensation insurance carrier or administrative service representative.

      B. An employee, or his legal representative in event death results, who exercises any option to institute a proceeding in court against his employer waives any right to compensation.

      Four principles flow from A.R.S. 23-1024. First, a deceased worker’s “legal representative” may bring a wrongful-death action if the estate has not accepted workers’ compensation. A “legal representative” is a “personal representative or conservator.” A.R.S. 14-9101(8). There can be a wrongful-death action as long as the deceased worker’s legal representative has not accepted any workers’ compensation.

      Second, under A.R.S. 23-1024, the only categories of litigants expressly subject to waiver are (1) employees and (2) deceased employees’ legal representatives. Either category must have accepted workers’ compensation benefits. Marcia is not suing as legal representative. A.R.S. 14-9101(8). Instead, Marcia is directly suing in her own name as a surviving parent. She never accepted any workers’ compensation benefits for her son’s death; her son never accepted any benefits for his injuries. He died before that could happen. So he never waived his right to sue.

      Third, since there has been no actual waiver of any right to sue, the state’s claim that A.R.S. 12-611 prevents a wrongful-death lawsuit is untenable. Because there has been no waiver (by Grant, his nonexistent legal representative, or Marcia), the State’s negligence in causing Grant’s death “is such, as would, if death had not ensued, have entitled” Grant “to maintain an action to recover damages.” A.R.S. 12-611.

      Fourth, accepting workers’ compensation benefits is the “single” legislatively- designated act creating waiver of an injured worker’s right to sue the employer. AAA Cab Service, Inc. v. Industrial Comm’n, 213 Ariz. 342, 343 3 (App. 2006).

      In AAA Cab Service, a taxicab driver died on the job, allegedly because of his employer’s negligence. His widow filed a wrongful-death action against the employer and then, one month later, also filed a claim for workers’ compensation benefits. The ICA issued an award to the widow. The widow then withdrew her ICA claim and proceeded solely with her superior-court wrongful-death claim. An ALJ found that, under A.R.S.23-1024, the widow could withdraw her workers’ compensation claim since she had never accepted workers’ compensation benefits (like Marcia McKee). Id. at 343 1-2.

      The employer appealed, arguing the widow’s original pursuit of a claim “for workers’ compensation” barred her from a civil wrongful-death action. The employer, however, conceded that “the legislature designated a single act as creating a waiver of an injured worker’s right to file a lawsuit against his or her employer: `accept[ing] compensation.’ 23-1024(A).” Id. at 343 113.

      AAA Cab Service held that A.R.S. 23-1024, as “the relevant statute,” “designates only one act triggering its waiver provision—accepting compensation.” Id. at 343-44 5 (emphasis added). Under A.R.S. 23-1024, “acceptance of benefits [is] the ‘sole statutory test'” for deciding existence of waiver for a survivor seeking to bring a wrongful-death action. Id. at 344 5, 141 P.3d at 824 (quoting Southwest Cooperative Wholesale v. Superior Court, 13 Ariz. App. 453, 459 (1970)).

      Besides 23-1024’s controlling terms, neither Grant nor Marcia took any workers’ compensation benefits. Thus, neither of them committed waiver, which is either the express, voluntary, intentional relinquishment of a known right or conduct warranting an inference of an intentional relinquishment. Compass Bank v. Bennett, 240 Ariz. 58, 60 11 (App. 2016). Absent waiver, which never occurred, the State can claim no immunity.

      ( Continued next ‘Reply’ )…

    • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

      4. This Court should grant review because a victim’s physical presence at the scene and specific targeting of the victim are not essential IIED elements.

      The Court of Appeals found Marcia had no IIED claim because she “failed to allege that she was present at the time of the allegedly extreme and outrageous conduct leading to her son’s death, or that any of defendants’ conduct was directed at her.” Opinion at 26.

      This Court should grant review because IIED claims are a key feature of many Arizona tort cases. Interpreting the IIED tort to require a victim’s physical presence at the scene of the wrongdoing or specific targeting of the IIED victim unfairly limits the effective prosecution of IIED claims across Arizona.

      Naturally enough, Marcia did not allege she was in the canyon where her son perished and did not allege she was in the back rooms where the State concocted the cover-up directed both at the public and at the firefighters’ statutory beneficiaries. But physical presence is not an essential element to an IIED claim.

      Contemporaneous perception is required for some IIED claims. Restatement (Third) of Torts: Physical & Emotional Harm 46 cmt. m (2012). But as much as anyone else, given the conflagration’s remote site, Marcia was a contemporaneous witness. She saw the dreadful images of the wildfire and heard news reports about Grant’s death. Practically speaking, she contemporaneously perceived this tragedy. Id. See also Croft v. Wicker, 737 P.2d 789, 792 (Alaska 1987) (A third person “foreseeabl y harmed by extreme and outrageous conduct may state [an IIED] cause of action.”). As much as anyone else not in on it, Marcia contemporaneously perceived the cover-up. She was thus effectively “present” during the State’s extreme and outrageous cover-up. Opinion at 26.

      Physical presence is not essential for the tort—nor should it be. After all, Section 46 only requires that: “An actor who by extreme and outrageous conduct intentionally or recklessly causes severe emotional harm to another is subject to liability for that emotional harm and, if the emotional harm causes bodily harm, also for the bodily harm.”

      Ultimately, whether conduct is extreme and outrageous depends on each case’s facts, including the parties’ relationship (State v. grieving mother), whether the defendant abused a position of authority (the State did), whether the victim was especially vulnerable (she was), whether the defendant knew of the vulnerability (it was obvious), and the defendant’s motive (evade blame). Id. at 46 cmt. d.

      The Complaint alleged the State was liable for IIED because it: (1) had committed extreme and outrageous misconduct; (2) recklessly disregarded the near certainty that emotional distress to Marcia would result; and (3) caused Marcia to suffer severe emotional distress Complaint 308, 311-12 (IR 1). Those are the standard IIED elements. Intentional Torts 16, Intentional Infliction of Emotional Distress (Elements of Claim), RAJI (Civil) (5th ed. July 2013).

      The State acted recklessly despite knowing the risk of severe emotional harm to relatives of firefighters combating the fire. The State did that although the burden to protect the firefighters was slight relative to the magnitude of risk. Complaint 309 (IR 1). The State’s misconduct killed Grant horribly, giving Marcia a claim for IIED.

      The State continued its extreme and outrageous conduct after Grant died by conducting a cover-up to avoid blame. Complaint 314 (IR 1). The State’s cover-up violated the public trust and multiplied Marcia’s “emotional devastation.” Complaint 315 (IR 1). She trusted the State with her son’s life during the State’s firefighting efforts. Complaint 316 (IR 1). The State’s betrayal of her trust, and its cover-up, caused her to suffer severe emotional distress and depression—just when she was most vulnerable. Complaint 316-17 (IR 1).

      The IIED claim arising from the State’s cover-up is not subject to any immunity defense. After all, the cover-up began after Grant died. This IIED claim is separate from Marcia’s other claims. This, if all other claims fail, the IIED claim survives.

      A cover-up concerning how a loved one died is extreme and outrageous conduct intentionally inflicting extreme emotional distress. For instance, in Thomas v. Hospital Bd. of Directors of Lee County, 41 So.3d 246 (Fla App. 2010), a nurse and doctor tried to protect themselves from being sued by lying about the cause of their patient’s death.

      Based on that cover-up, the Florida Court of Appeals approved the IIED claim: “We believe that in a situation where a person’s loved one has died, it would be apparent to anyone that the person would be susceptible to emotional distress and, therefore, that the action of providing false information concerning the loved one’s cause of death meets the standard for a claim of outrage (intentional infliction of emotional distress).” Id. at 256.

      That reasonable and just principle should apply here as well.

      ( Continued next ‘Reply’ )…

    • WantsToKnowTheTruth says


      Marcia McKee respectfully asks the Court to grant the petition for review.

      DATED this 27th day of January, 2017.

      /s/ David L. Abney, Esq.
      Signed: David L. Abney
      Attorneys for Petitioners/Plaintiffs/Appellants

      Certificate of Compliance

      This document: (1) uses Times New Roman 14-point proportionately spaced typeface for text and footnotes; (2) contains 3,492 words (by computer count); and (3) averages less than 280 words per page, including footnotes and quotations.

      Certificate of Service

      On this date, the above-signing lawyer e-filed this document with the Clerk of the Arizona Supreme Court, and mailed two copies of it to each of the following:

      – Mark Brnovich, Esq. and Brock Heathcotte, Esq.,
      1275 West Washington Street, Phoenix, Arizona 85007-2926,
      DefensePhx (at), Brock.Heathcotte (at), (602) 542-7664, Fax: (602) 542-3393,
      Attorneys for Respondents/Defendants/Appellees.

      – Michael L. Parrish, Esq.,
      1850 N. Central Ave., Ste. 2100, Phoenix, AZ 85004,
      (602) 279-1600, mike.parrish (at),
      Attorneys for Respondents/Defendants/Appellees.

      /s/ David L. Abney, Esq.
      Signed: David L. Abney

      Exhibit 1

      A copy of the original decision issued by the Arizona Court of Appeals regarding MCKEE v. STATE, et al.

      Arizona Division 1 Court of Appeals Presiding Judge Andrew W. Gould ( who had already been sworn in as one of Governor Doug Ducey’s 2 new Arizona Supreme Court Justices ) delivered the opinion of the Appeals Court, in which Judge Peter B. Swann and Judge Patricia A. Orozco joined.

      NOTE: See the original document for the complete ‘Exhibit 1’.

      Exhibit 2

      A copy of just part of the original Arizona Division of Occupational Safety and Health ( ADOSH ) investigation report related to the 2013 Yarnell Hill Fire, including the 4 ‘Willful Serious’ Workplace Safety Violations ( one of which caused the death of the 19 Granite Mountain Hotshots ) and the associated ( maximum and historic ) fines and penalties that were levied against employer Arizona Forestry.

      Industrial Commission. of Arizona
      Arizona Division of Occupational Safety and Health ( ADOSH )
      Inspection Number: 317242683
      Inspection Dates: 07/01/2013 – 12/03/2013
      Issuance Date: 12/05/2013
      CSHO ID: L3419
      Citation and Notification of Penalty
      Company Name: Arizona State Forestry Division, State of Arizona
      Inspection Site: Weaver Mountains/Yarnell Hill Fire, Yarnell, AZ 85362
      Citation 1 Item 1 Type of Violation: Willful Serious
      Date By Which Violation Must be Abated: 12/11/2013
      Assessed PENALTY: $70,000 ( SEVENTY THOUSAND DOLLARS )

      A.R.S. Section 23-403(A): The employer did not furnish to each of his employees employment and a place of employment which were free from recognized hazards that were causing or likely to cause death or serious physical harm to their employees, in that the employer implemented suppression strategies that prioritized protection of non-defensible structures and pastureland over firefighter safety, and failed to prioritize strategies consistent with Arizona State Forestry Division – Standard Operational Guideline 701 Fire Suppression and Prescribed Fire Policy (2008). When the employer knew that suppression of extremely active chaparral fuels was ineffective and that wind would push active fire towards non-defensible structures, firefighters working downwind were not promptly removed from exposure to smoke inhalation, bums, and death:

      FOUR Distinct ( and separate ) WILLFUL / SERIOUS violations are cited:

      a) Yarnell Hill Fire, Yarnell, Arizona: On June 30, 2013, between 1230 and 1430, and after the general public had been evacuated, thirty-one members of Structure Protection Group 2, charged with protecting non-defensible structures in the vicinity of the Double Bar A Ranch, were exposed to smoke inhalation, burns, and death by wind driven wildland fire.

      b) Yarnell Hill Fire, Yarnell, Arizona: On June 30, 2013, from and after 1530, one member of the Granite Mountain Interagency Hotshot Crew that continued to serve as a lookout was exposed to smoke inhalation, burns, and death by a rapidly progressing wind driven wildland fire.

      c) Yarnell Hill Fire, Yarnell, Arizona: On June 30, 2013, from and after 1530, approximately thirty firefighters continued indirect attack activities in Division Z (Zulu) and were exposed to smoke inhalation, burns, and death by a rapidly progressing wind driven wildland fire.

      d) Yarnell Hill Fire, Yarnell, Arizona: On June 30, 2013, from and after 1530, 19 members of the Granite Mountain Interagency Hotshot Crew continued in suppression activities, until 1642 when they were entrapped by a rapidly progressing wind driven wildland fire.

      Date By Which Violation Must be Abated: 12/11/2013
      Assessed PENALTY: $70,000 ( SEVENTY THOUSAND DOLLARS )


  10. WantsToKnowTheTruth says


    As part of her continuing example of bravery, tenacity, and her simple ‘Search for the Truth’… just 48 hours ago, Marcia McKee ( and her lawyers ) filed an official ‘Petition for Review’ with the Arizona Supreme Court.

    She is now officially asking the ‘Arizona Supreme Court’ itself to ‘Review’ the recent decision made by the lower ‘Arizona Court of Appeals’.

    That ‘filing’ is now showing up on the case ‘docket’ at the following link…

    See the ( new ) entry number 28 in the ‘Case History’ record…

    28. 30-Jan-2017 FILED: Email Notice from ASC ( Arizona Supreme Court )
    re: Petition for Review filed 1/27/17, request for partial record.


    The ‘request for partial record’ part of that entry means that the Arizona Court of Appeals has been officially ‘notified’ by the Arizona Supreme Court to supply the ‘records’ of their hearing of the case up to the Supreme Court.

    This does not automatically mean that the Arizona Supreme Court has decided to ‘allow’ the ‘Petition for Review’. It just means they need the ‘records’ from the Court of Appeals so they can make that ‘decision’.

    I don’t have a PACER ( Public Access to Court Electronic Records ) account, so I can’t see what was actually just ‘filed’ with the Arizona Supreme Court, but maybe someone else can.

    Either way… here is what is supposed to be contained in that ‘Petition for Review’ submitted to the Arizona Supreme Court.

    Arizona Judicial Branch
    Court of Appeals
    Procedures Manual

    On PDF page 8, which explains the ‘progression’ of an Arizona Court of Appeals case… and what can happen even after the Court of Appeals has made a ‘decision’…

    19. The ‘Losing’ party ( in an Arizona Court of Appeals decision ) may file a
    ‘Motion for Reconsideration’ with the Court of Appeals, and/or a ‘Petition for Review’
    with the Arizona Supreme Court

    20. The ‘Winning’ party ( in the same case ) may timely file a ‘Response to Petition
    for Review’ with the Arizona Supreme Court

    21. Arizona Supreme Court either grants or denies ‘Petition for Review’ and issues
    appropriate order


    So Marcia McKee is now at ‘Step 19’ and has now filed her ‘Petition for Review’ of the Arizona Court of Appeals decision with the Arizona Supreme Court.

    Here is what the Arizona Supreme Court ‘Procedures’ manual says about that…

    PDF page 32
    Chapter XII – The Petition for Review
    Seeking Further Review in the Arizona Supreme Court

    Any party who believes that the Court of Appeals decision was wrong can file a “Petition for Review” with the Clerk of the Arizona Supreme Court within thirty (30) days after the Court of Appeals issues its decision. That time is not extended if the decision is sent to the parties by mail.

    The party opposing the Petition for Review may file a “Response to the Petition for Review” in the Arizona Supreme Court. (A form of the Petition for Review is attached as Form 23, and a form of the Response to the Petition for Review is attached as Form 24.) Below is a description of the formatting requirements and contents of the Petition for Review and the Response to the Petition for Review.


    A. The parties filing the Petition for Review and the Response to the Petition for Review should follow all of the requirements for paper size, font size, margins, page numbers, headings, etc. described in Step 1 of “Opening Brief.”

    B. The Petition for Review and the Response to the Petition for Review may not exceed 3,500 words. A Cross-Petition combined with a Response to a Petition for Review may not exceed 6,500 words.

    C. A copy of the Court of Appeals decision must be attached to the Petition for Review.


    A. The Petition for Review (Form 23) and the Response to the Petition for Review (Form 24) must contain a discussion of:

    1. The issues presented for review;

    2. A list of additional issues not decided by the Court of Appeals that may need to be decided by the Arizona Supreme Court if review is granted;

    3. A statement of the important facts; and

    4. The reasons for granting or denying the Petition for Review, such as whether (1) an Arizona decision controls the point of law in question, (2) a decision of the Arizona Supreme Court should be overruled or modified, (3) the Court of Appeals has made conflicting decisions, or (4) an important issue of law has been decided incorrectly. This section is important because the Supreme Court is not required to review Court of Appeals decisions.


    The Petition for Review must be filed within 30 days after entry of the Court of Appeals’ decision.

    A party opposing the Petition for Review ( then ) has thirty (30) days to file a Response to the Petition for Review if the Petition for Review was hand-delivered or electronically served. If the Petition for Review was mailed, the opposing party has thirty-five (35) days from the date of mailing to file the Response to the Petition for Review.

    When the Arizona Supreme Court decides whether it will grant or deny the Petition for Review, it will mail a copy of its decision to the parties. You may provide consent to receive documents from the court electronically by completing, signing and filing Form 26.

    If the Petition for Review is GRANTED, the Supreme Court will issue an Order stating whether supplemental briefs or oral argument will be permitted.

    If a Petition for Review is DENIED, no further appeal to a state court is permitted. Motions to reconsider the denial of a petition for review are not allowed.

      • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

        Reply to Rocksteady post on February 3, 2017 at 6:47 pm

        >> Rocksteady said…
        >> Good for Marcia… I hope she keeps pushing until the truth comes out

        Someone should make a ‘movie’ about THIS brave woman.

        I wonder if Meryl Streep ( you know… that ‘underrated actress’ ) is available?

        See the FULL TEXT of the ‘Petition for Review’ that Marcia McKee has filed with the Arizona Supreme Court up in this new posting…

        NOTE: This TEXT version of the PUBLIC document has been posted here to the forum with the full permission of Marcia McKee, in case someone doesn’t have a PACER ( Public Access to Court Electronic Documents ) account.

        There are still undecided ‘issues’ here that could cause this case to go all the way to the United States Supreme Court.

        Such as…

        Is a STATE allowed to have LAWS on its books that directly CONTRADICT each other with regards to who is ‘allowed’ to file a ‘wrongful death’ lawsuit… and under what circumstances.

  11. rocksteady says

    So has there been any significant push for fuels management activities around communities since the Yarnell Fire????

    Being that its all chaparral, manzanita, mesquite (whatever) that has zero timber value, why not go out and treat areas around communities to 1000 yards (be it with mechanical mulching or prescribed fire) and then maintain it thru fire or what have you every 3 to 5 years???

    Just looking at photos and maps, seems to be pretty easy ground that a large mulcher type machine could do a lot of ground in a day…

  12. WantsToKnowTheTruth says



    Only 32 days after the June 30, 2013 Yarnell Hill Fire tragedy… ABC NEWS Investigative Producer James Gordon Meek had already learned that there had been some kind of ‘Aerial Firefighting Study Group’ present in Yarnell the day of the tragedy, and they were there ‘recording data’.

    On August 1, 2013… James Gordon Meek sent his first ( of many ) ’email’ to Jennifer Jones ( APR Public Affairs Specialist U.S. Forest Service, Washington Office, Fire and Aviation Management ) inquiring about this ‘Air Study’ at the Yarnell Hill Fire.

    SIDENOTE: As far as we know… James Gordon Meek’s inquiries to USFS were the FIRST ones coming ‘from the outside’ regarding these AFUE recordings. Others would follow in the weeks and months to come ( and after the SAIR report was released in September of 2013 )… but James Gordon Meek ( apparently ) submitted the first FOIA requests for these ‘AFUE recordings’.

    After several email exchanges back and forth… the US Forestry Service finally admitted to him that YES… there HAD been a USFS sponsored ‘AFUE Air Study’ team operating in Yarnell on the day of the tragedy… and they HAD been making ‘recordings’ at the time prior to, during, and after the 19 Hotshots died.

    On August 5, 2013… James Gordon Meek submitted his own FOIA request(s) on behalf of ABC NEWS requesting ALL of these ‘USFS AFUE recordings’… and his FOIA included a stern WARNING to U.S. Forestry that these recordings were obviously of ‘strong’ interest to the ‘public’… and that USFS should not attempt to declare a ‘privacy’ exemption.

    His actual WARNING to USFS in his FOIA included the following paragraph(s)…

    Presidential Memorandum for Heads of Executive Departments and Agencies Concerning the Freedom of lnformation Act, 74 Fed. Reg. 4683 (Jan. 21, 2009) emphasizes that the Freedom of Information Act reflects a “profound national commitment to ensuring an open Government” and directing agencies to “adopt a presumption in favor of disclosure.”

    ln this case, the public interest is strong because the information reveals the operations or activities of the government in carrying out a firefighting operation that led to the deaths of 19 firefighters.

    There is significant media and public interest about what went wrong at Yarnell Hill. The U.S. Forest Service should NOT deny access to the requested records because they may be embarrassing; that rationale is NOT permissible.

    James Gordon Meek ( Investigative Producer for ABC NEWS )


    James Gordon Meek also sent an email directly to the head of U.S. Forestry ( Tom Harbour, at that time ) requesting details regarding the ‘chain of custody’ for these USFS AFUE Air Study recordings.

    2 days later, on August 7, 2013, USFS Public Affairs person Jennifer Jones responded to James Gordon Meek with a ‘chain of custody’ description regarding the USFS AFUE Air Study ‘recordings’.

    That email revealed that only HOURS after the tragedy on June 30, 2013, A ‘USFS employee’ on the AFUE team ( presumably USFS employee Eric Panebaker, but she does not name him ) realized the IMPORTANCE of the recordings they now had in their possession… and he immediately gathered the full ‘team’ together to ‘collect’ ALL of the recordings they had ALL been making that day.

    He ( Eric Panebaker ) then collected ALL of those ‘recordings’ onto a ‘hard drive’, and then waited 3 days ( until July 4, 2013 ) until the SAIT had finally ‘assembled’ in Yarnell ( Mike Dudley, Jim Karels, etc. ) and he then informed THEM of this ‘evidence’ they had.

    The next day… he ( Eric Panebaker ) handed the ‘hard drive’ with ALL of the AFUE recordings to a ( quote ) ‘SAIT team member’.

    So Mike Dudley, Jim Karels and the SAIT were the ones to first actually receive ALL of the ‘AFUE’ recordings just as soon as the SAIT had assembled and been given its ‘delegation of authority’ to begin investigating the Yarnell tragedy.

    That complete email to ABC NEWS Investigative Producer James Gordon Meek was as follows…

    From: Jones, Jennifer E -FS ( mailto – jejones (at) )
    Sent: Wednesday, August 07, 2013 11:42 AM
    To: Meek, James ( ABC NEWS Investigative Producer )
    Cc: Harbour, Tom -FS; Drelick, Donna -FS; Kay, Leo F -FS
    Subject: AFUE Recordings Info

    To: James Gordon Meek
    ABC NEWS Investigative Producer
    24-hour mobile/text: 202-236-XXXX james.meek (at)

    Hi James, per your request to Tom Harbour, here is information on the chain of custody of the AFUE recordings – if you have any questions about this, please let me know, thanks!

    June 30, 2013 – A U.S. Forest Service employee who was with the AFUE group when they were recording the data on the Yarnell Hill Fire asked the group to provide him with all of the data that they had collected.

    July 1, 2013 – The U.S. Forest Service employee took possession of the data and contacted their supervisor to find out when the Serious Accident Investigation Team (SAIT) would be arriving in Phoenix and how the AFUE data could be provided to them.

    July 4, 2013 – The U.S. Forest Service employee met with the SAIT and told them that they had raw data from the AFUE group that was on the Yarnell Hill fire on the day of the incident.

    July 5 or 6, 2013 – The U.S. Forest Service employee passed off the hard drive containing the data to an SAIT team member.

    Jennifer Jones, APR Public Affairs Specialist U.S. Forest Service
    Washington Office, Fire and Aviation Management
    National lnteragency Fire Center
    Office (208) 387-5437
    Mobile (208) 631-0406



    I’ll post some more emails about this as a ‘Reply’ to this posting.

      • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

        There’s more. I’m putting it together right now.

        These are just some of the USFS ’emails’ related to the Yarnell AFUE study that were already obtained via FOIA… and if anyone is now pretending they don’t have them… they are ( of course ) LYING.

        • WantsToKnowTheTruth says


          What that first email above PROVES is that it really WAS Mike Dudley, Jim Karels and the SAIT who were the very FIRST ‘recipients’ of the actual FULL ‘raw data files’ that were ‘collected’ from the AFUE team members the very night ( and the following morning ) from whatever devices the AFUE team had been using on June 30, 2013.

          That ‘hard drive’ which ( supposedly ) contained absolutely EVERYTHING they had ( including possibly BOTH their A2A and A2G recordings ) never left Arizona before it was physically HANDED to some unnamed person on the SAIT team ( on July 5 or 6 ).

          It is still not known if Eric Panebaker ‘handed over’ a COPY of ALL the data that was collected… or whether he actually gave that mysterious SAIT member the ACTUAL ( original ) hard drive he had used to ‘collect’ the data from his team members just hours after the tragedy itself.

          And where is that actual ( original ) hard-drive now?

          Are we supposed to believe it was DESTROYED, or something?

    • WantsToKnowTheTruth says



      This is just sort of going to be a ‘dump’ of many other emails related to the original FOIA request(s) made to USFS by ABC NEWS Investigative Producer James Gordon Meek just 32 days after the Yarnell Tragedy.. but they all ‘lead up’ to the email already printed above.

      This is just what went on ‘leading up’ to that email above… and will include ABC NEWS Investigative Producer James Gordon Meek’s actual FOIA request to U.S. Forestry.

      They are mostly in SEQUENTIAL order… starting with USFS ‘Public Affairs Specialist’ Jennifer Jones’ very first ’email’ response to James Gordon Meek.

      What you will see is a ‘progression’ on the part of Jennifer Jones of first trying to supply ABC NEWS with ‘unrelated’ information ‘not responsive to the request’, but then she sends OTHER emails off to Arizona Forestry and gets ‘educated’ herself about what does or doesn’t exist with regards to the AFUE recordings.

      But as you read… keep in mind that even though Jennifer Jones is a top level USFS PIO… she seems totally unaware that USFS employee ( and SAIT Co-Lead ) Mike Dudley has ALREADY been in possession of a ‘hard drive’ that contains ( supposedly ) ALL of the actual AFUE ‘raw data’ collected the night of June 30, 2013.

      She eventually ‘discovers’ this… even though that hard drive had been ‘handed’ to USFS employee Mike Dudley and his SAIT team a MONTH earlier… on July 5 ( or 6 ).

      It’s going to take a few ‘Replies’ to ‘dump’ these emails, due to length limits for any one post.

      So away we go.

      Here is USFS Public Affaris Specialist Jennifer Jones ( in the USDA USFS Washington office ) responding to ABC NEWS Investigative Producer James Gordon Meek’s FIRST email to HER, on August 1, 2013… followed by the sequential ‘responses’…

      ** AUGUST 1, 2013

      NOTE: The ‘Carl Bambarger’ that USFS Public Affairs Specialist ‘Jennifer Jones’ is about to refer to has a ‘LinkedIN’ page that says…

      Carl Bamburger: Aviation Program Leader at US Forest Service, San Dimas Technology Development Center

      From: “Jones, Jennifer E -FS” ( jejones (at) )
      Sent: Aug 1, 2013, at 10:00 AM,
      To: Meek, James ( ABC NEWS Investigative Producer )
      Subject: Re: Airtanker Study Info

      Hi James, per your request, here is info about the airtanker study/testing that Carl Bambarger is currently engaged in, if you have any additional questions or need more info, shout, thanks!

      Aerial Firefighting Use and Effectiveness (AFUE) Study

      – The Forest Service initiated the Aerial Firefighting Use and Effectiveness (AFUE) study to evaluate the effectiveness of firefighting aircraft that deliver water or wildland fire chemicals to support incident management objectives on wildfires.

      – The AFUE study will develop processes, technology, and performance metrics that will, when implemented, become part of Forest Service aerial firefighting operations.

      – The AFUE study addreses questions such as:

      Was the aircraft used on initial attack, extended attack, or a large fire?
      Did the aircraft support incident objectives?
      On how many fires-and which ones-were airtankers used?
      Was the drop at the right height and speed for that aircraft and its delivery system?
      How many gallons were dropped, and what was the level of coverage?
      How can technology improve tracking, documentation, evaluation, and avoidance in delivery of water or wildland fire chemicals?

      – Phase 1 of AFUE began in summer 2012 and is continuing in 2013, collecting data on a limited number of incidents using a specifically designed form to capture the above information and other fire, aircraft and drop data.

      – Phase 2, which will begin when Phase 1 is completed, will focus on metrics developed during Phase 1 and any data gaps. Phase 2 will also address the implementation of processes, systems, and technology that may be more complex in terms of funding, technology, operational changes, or additional time requirements.

      – Next Generation Airtanker Testing

      – Next Generation Airtankers must receive Interagency Airtanker Board (IAB) approval for their tanking systems and retardant delivery performance standards before they can begin flying wildfire suppression missions.

      – Testing is being conducted in support of the IAB approval process. This includes grid testing, which is one of the requirements to attain IAB approval. During this test, the Airtanker drops retardant that is captured in containers and measured to determine whether it can provide sufficient levels of coverage to be used in wildfire suppression.

      Jennifer Jones, APR Public Affairs Specialist U.S. Forest Service
      Washington Office, Fire and Aviation Management
      National lnteragency Fire Center
      Office (208) 387-5437
      Mobile (208) 631-XXXX

      NOTE: James Gordon Meeks knows that response is NOT what he was ‘asking for’… but he sticks with the ‘game’ and just clarifies his request…

      From: Meek, James []
      Sent: Thursday, August 01, 2013 11:10 AM
      To: Jones, Jennifer E -FS
      Subject: Re: Airtanker Study Info

      Thanks, Jennifer. I appreciate the quick response.

      What data or records were collected on airtanker ops on the Yarnell Hill Fire?

      Also, I was looking at some AP photos of Yarnell Hill and it looks like USFS released photos to the media of the fire being fought. Is there a way to obtain those?

      NOTE: Jennifer Jones is now either ‘pretending’… or really did NOT know ( as of August 1, 2013 ) that USFS employee Mike Dudley and his SAIT team had already been in possession of the ‘AFUE recordings’ that Meek is asking about for over a MONTH…

      From: Jones, Jennifer E -FS” ( jejones (at) )
      Sent: Aug 1, 2013, at 10:23 AM,
      To: Meek, James ( ABC NEWS Investigative Producer )
      Subject: Re: Airtanker Study Info

      Hi James, I am sorry but I am not clear on your first question – are you talking about what data or records may have been collected on airtanker ops on the Yarnell Hill fire in relation to the study you are inquiring about? If not, if you could please be more specific about what information you ‘re looking for, that would be helpful.

      Second, the Yarnell Hill fire was an Arizona State Forestry Division Fire, not a U.S. Forest Service fire, so I am guessing that the photos were released by them – their information officer is Carrie Dennett, you can reach her at (602) 399-3078. If you are sure that photos were released by the U.S. Forest Service, please send me the AP info and I will try to run down where they came from as they didn’t come from my office.


      Jennifer Jones, APR Public Affairs Specialist U.S. Forest Service
      Washington Office, Fire and Aviation Management
      National lnteragency Fire Center
      Office (208) 387-5437
      Mobile (208) 631-XXXX

      NOTE: James Meek now makes it CLEAR to USFS employee Jennifer Jones what it is he has already HEARD about ( the AFUE study in Yarnell and possible ‘recordings’ made )… and THAT is what he is actually ‘inquiring’ about…

      From: Meek, James ( ABC NEWS – Investigative Producer )
      Sent: 1 Aug 2013 13:46:27 -0400
      To: Jones, Jennifer E -FS
      Subject: Re: Airtanker Study Info

      I’ll look for the photo cutline. I’m aware of the state having operational control of the Yarnell Hill Fire but USPS assets were also used, as you know.

      To clarify, I’m asking what kind of records or data related to the USFS study were collected on the Yarnell Hill Fire. I’m aware generally of devices being placed on airtankers as part of the study to log drops of retardant, for example.

      An official also mentioned to me that as part of the USFS study that radio transmissions of pilots, incident commanders, dispatch and/or ground crews, etc., may have been RECORDED as well.

      James Gordon Meek ( ABC NEWS – Investigative Producer )

      Continued next ‘Reply’…

      • Charlie says

        Thanks WTKTT. This information and obvious withholding of information and defensive measures taken to the extreme tell us that the FS has taken a stand of us against them-FS vs Public. This stance is a crack in their armor indeed.

        We hope that the information that WTKTT has revealed and its layout are forwarded to the FBI and our new President Trump so he can have a better look at how the USFS has been operating. He might want to have one of his investigators have a close look at the way the FS has continued to hide and redact documents essential to the understanding of what went wrong at the Yarnell Hill Wild Land fire debacle. I am certain our President will consider the truth of the cause of the deaths of those 19 men a matter of utmost importance. He will perhaps give it a very close look especially seeing how some in the Department of Interior system are using the system for political ends–for example using Twitter to compare photos of Obama vs Trump inaugural attendance, something totally inappropriate for the job they are hired to do.

        What is the FS hiding on the retardant plane videos and communication recordings. Will they show the back burns, and will they show how inept bosses and communicators were and how the men were actually positioned with their obvious commands to go where no man should go. It might even show Joy and Sonny going away from the Atom Bomb Wild Fire to a safe zone on the west side of the Weavers while the men were going straight into a death trap. Good Lord what idiot ordered them down there to die like that?

        • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

          Reply to Charlie post on January 23, 2017 at 12:00 pm

          >> Charlie said…
          >> I am certain our President will consider the truth of the cause
          >> of the deaths of those 19 men a matter of utmost importance.

          You really don’t have a clue who just ‘accidentally’ got elected President.

            • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

              He’s certifiable.

              His narcissism appears to have no boundaries.

              Even worse than Nixon.

              Even today, after 3 of his own cabinet picks and all major Congressional representatives have disavowed the use of ‘torture’… HE is STILL saying he ‘believes in it’. He says it is probably not ‘pleasant’… but it’s NOT torture and it is ‘useful’.

              He stood in front of the memorial ‘wall of stars’ at the CIA and rambled incoherently about his inauguration… and then committed actual treason by ‘announcing’ that he endorses committing ‘war crimes’ overseas.

              ‘Treason’ is defined in the Constitution ( Article III ) as giving “Aid and Comfort to the enemy”. Videos of Trump’s statement that he will just “take the oil” the next chance he gets are circulating all over the Middle East… and our actual ‘enemies’ are now saying they are ‘inspired to fight even harder’ and kill even more of our servicemen and servicewomen abroad. Trump has given them new ‘Aid and Comfort’ to fight on ( even harder ).

              As for ‘Accidental President’… that is now just one of the ‘labels’ being assigned to him.

              He LOST the popular vote by more votes than anyone in history who was still allowed to actually take the oath of office.

              Trump was only ‘allowed’ to take the actual oath of office because of a total of just 77,744 votes spread out over 3 different states ( Pennsylvania, Wisconsin and Michigan ).

              That isn’t even enough people to fill the ‘FedExField’ football stadium in Landover, Maryland, where the Washington Redskins play ( Capacity: 79,000 seats ).

              That is also just 0.06 ( SIX ONE-HUNDRETHS OF ONE PERCENT ) of the total votes cast for either Trump or Clinton… and any ‘statistician’ will tell you a ‘margin’ that LOW is well into the ‘Accidental’ category.

              Just Google the following 3 words…

              Trump Accidental President

              OR… just click the following link and it will do the search for you…


    • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

      USFS EMAILS ( continued )…

      Now that ABC NEWS Investigative Producer Gordon Meek has made it CLEAR to Jennifer Jones that he has already heard ( from an unnamed source ) about the USFS AFUE ‘Study’ that was taking place in Yarnell on June 30, 2013… here is USFS Public Affairs Specialist Jennifer Jones now asking Arizona Forestry PIO Carrie Dennet about the ‘Aerial Firefighting Use and Effectiveness’ ( AFUE ) recordings that are being ‘requested’ by ABC NEWS Investigative Producer James Gordon Meek…

      NOTE: Jennifer Jones has NOT responded back to James Gordon Meek yet, but would do so one half hour after this email to Carrie Dennet ( at 5:02 PM ) and would then CONFIRM to James Gordon Meek that an AFUE study HAD been taking place in Yarnell on June 30, 2013.

      But Arizona Forestry’s Carrie Dennet herself would NOT respond to this email from Jennifer Jones until the NEXT DAY… when she tells Jones that she, herself, is ‘clueless’ about any sort of ‘radio captures’ related to any ‘Aerial Study’.

      So somehow… in the half-hour between when Jennifer Jones sent the following email to Carrie Dennet and when she would CONFIRM back to James Meek that there HAD been an ‘AFUE Study’ going on in Yarnell… Jennifer Jones had that CONFIRMED to her in some other way.

      There is no email showing HOW Jennifer Jones got that ‘confirmation’… at least nothing that is ‘undredacted’… so perhaps in that half-hour she made some ‘phone calls’ which didn’t get documented *OR* she was ‘informed’ via one of the ‘FULLY REDACTED’ emails shown below.

      Maybe she actually called USFS employee Mike Dudley herself in this ‘half hour’ timeframe and finally found out that Dudley really did have this AFUE ‘raw data’ hard drive for over a MONTH already.

      From: Jones, Jennifer E -FS ( jejones (at) )
      Sent: Thursday, August 01, 2013 4:26 PM
      To: Carrie Dennett ( Fire Information and Prevention Officer for Arizona Forestry )
      Subject: ABC News Inquiry

      Hi Carrie, my name is Jennifer Jones, I work for the U.S. Forest Service at the National lnteragency Fire Center in Boise, Idaho. I am the person that Mary Zabinski said could send a few examples of investigation report release communication plans, which I am happy to do and will do by the end of this week or the first of next week.

      Meantime, when we get calls regarding the investigation of the Yarnell Hill accident, should we direct those to you or is there another PIO who has been assigned to the investigation team?

      If you could please provide me with some contact information, that would be really helpful.

      FYI, ABC News is inquiring about recordings of radio transmissions that may have been made as part of an airtanker study as aircraft involved in that study were apparently in the area of the Yarnell Hill fire when the accident occurred – our aviation staff believes that the request for the recordings should be made to the investigation team.

      If you have any questions or need more information, please let me know, thanks!

      Jennifer Jones, APR
      Public Affairs Specialist
      U.S. Forest Service
      Washington Office, Fire and Aviation Management
      National lnteragency Fire Center
      Office (208) 387-5437
      Mobile (208) 631-0406

      NOTE: Here is Arizona Forestry’s PIO Carrie Dennet’s response sent the next day.. August 2, 2016. She ( Dennett ) herself seems ‘clueless’ about the AFUE ‘raw data’ already in the possession of the Arizona Forestry SAIT for over a month at this point…

      ALSO NOTE: This Arizona Forestry Carrie Dennet person ( with a wink/wink nod/nod back to Jennifer Jones ) refers to valid ‘media requests’ as them just ‘trying to find a (quote) “crack in our armor”… as if it’s just a ‘contest’ and some kind of “US against THEM’ situation for her and Jones.

      From: Carrie Dennett
      Sent: 2 Aug 2013 00:39:00 +0000
      To: Jones, Jennifer E -FS
      Subject: RE: ABC News Inquiry

      Hi Jennifer,

      Yes, we would love any examples you have. I have some examples from Carrie Templin ( BLM )… but the more I have, the better.

      You can refer any investigation questions to me. At this point, our position is that the investigation is still ongoing, and the report will be released sometime in September.

      Beyond that, no one is saying any more. All of the media knows that… they are just looking for a crack in our armor, as you well know.

      As for the airtanker study radio transmissions …they want transmissions for stuff not related to Yarnell Hill? I’m not sure how that will help them. If it’s not transmissions related to the Yarnell Hill Fire, the investigation team wouldn’t have them. The airtanker study was done by the USFS, right? I guess I’m confused as to what they want.

      Thanks for the help!

      Carrie Dennett
      Fire Information and Prevention Officer
      Arizona State Forestry Division
      1110 W. Washington St., Suite 100
      Phoenix, AZ 85007
      602-399-XXXX (mobile)

      At this point… we see ‘Jennifer Jones’ communicating with all kinds of people like the ‘Carl Bambarger’ at San Dimas who was in charge of the AFUE Study… and Mike Dudley and USFS Director Tom Harbour… but the actual CONTENT of all of these emails has been REDACTED…

      …but ALL of these ‘FULLY REDACTED’ emails were definitely ‘discussing’ the ABC NEWS inquiry about the AFUE Study. Notice all the NAMES that are now being ‘included’ in this ‘discussion’ about James Gordon Meek’s emails.

      NOTICE the first one here… someone named ‘Sharp, Drag B’, a USFS employee, is sending an email to ‘KlassyKayel’ at a private email address with YAHOO.COM, regarding the ‘ABC News Inquiry’… and the content of that email has also been REDACTED…

      From: Sharp, Drag B -FS
      Sent: 2 Aug 2013 11:17:43 +0000
      To: ‘’
      Subject: Fw: ABC News Inquiry


      From: Baird, Robert A -FS
      Sent: Thursday, August 01, 2013 07:26 PM
      To: Jones, Jennifer E -FS; Harbour, Tom -FS; Hinaman, Arthur W -FS; Olsen, Dan -FS; Fortner, James P -FS; Sharp, Drag B -FS
      Subject: Re: ABC News Inquiry


      From: Jones, Jennifer E -FS
      Sent: Thursday, August 01, 2013 11:12 PM Coordinated Universal Time
      To: Harbour, Tom -FS; Hinaman, Arthur W -FS; Baird, Robert A -FS; Olsen, Dan -FS;
      Fortner, James P -FS; Sharp, Drag B -FS
      Subject: FW: ABC News Inquiry

      (110)(5).Deliberative Process Privilege


      Jennifer Jones, APR Public Affairs Specialist U.S. Forest Service
      Washington Office, Fire and Aviation Management
      National lnteragency Fire Center
      Office (208) 387-5437
      Mobile (208) 631-0406

      From: Roth, Robert -FS
      Sent: Thursday, August 01, 2013 5:07 PM
      To: Jones, Jennifer E -FS; Bambarger, Carl D -FS; Dudley, Mike -FS
      Cc: Linse, Paul -FS
      Subject: Re: ABC News Inquiry


      From: Jones, Jennifer E -FS
      Sent: Thursday, August 01, 2013 11:03 PM Coordinated Universal Time
      To: Roth, Robert -FS; Bambarger, Carl D -FS
      Cc: Linse, Paul -FS
      Subject: ABC News Inquiry


      Jennifer Jones, APR Public Affairs Specialist U.S. Forest Service
      Washington Office, Fire and Aviation Management
      National lnteragency Fire Center
      Office (208) 387-5437
      Mobile (208) 631-0406

      Continued next ‘Reply’…

    • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

      USFS EMAILS ( continued )…

      Jennifer Jones didn’t hear back from Arizona Forestry’s Carrie Dennet until the next day ( August 2 )… but somewhere in the half-hour between her last email to James Meek on August 1, 2013 and the very next one she would send to James Meek ( at 5:02 PM ) SOMEONE finally ‘clued her in’ that that really WERE actual RECORDINGS made by a USFS AFUE ‘Aerial Firefighting Study’ team there in Yarnell on Sunday, June 30, 2013.

      So here is Jennifer Jones ( armed with this new knowledge about the existence of the AFUE recordings ) responding to ABC NEWS Investigative Producer James Gordon Meek at 5:02 PM on August 1, 2013.

      USFS Public Affairs Specialist ‘Jennifer Jones’ now CONFIRMS to James Gordon Meek that an AFUE study WAS taking place in Yarnell on June 30, 2013.

      It is also now obvious that in that half-hour since her last email to Meeks… she was TOLD to ‘inform’ him that he would now have to submit an official FOIA to get those recordings.

      She was probably TOLD to do that in either some phone calls during that half hour… or perhaps in one of the UNREDACTED emails ( or even in an email that has been OMITTED from their response to the FOIA for ALL these Yarnell related emails ).

      Either way… here is the actual ‘August 1’ email exchange continuing between USFS employee Jennifer Jones and ABC NEWS Investigative Producer James Meek…

      She also ‘knows enough’ now about the existing AFUE RECORDINGS to tell Meek that further requests are going to have to go through the USFS ‘Regional’ office out there in Arizona ( as in… where USDA OGC lawyer Steve Hattenbach works )…

      From: Jennifer Jones E-FS;
      Sent: August 1. 2013, 5:02 PM
      To: James Gordon Meek ( Investigative Producer for ABC NEWS )
      Subject: AFUE Study Aerial Recordings

      Hi James…

      I have confirmed that an Aerial Firefighting Use and Effectiveness (AFUE) study crew was in the vicinity of the Yarnell Hill fire when the accident with the Granite Mountain Hotshot Crew occurred and WAS RECORDING AUDIO.

      The audio recordings HAVE been turned over to the Yarnell Hill fire accident investigation team.

      Per our conversation, you will need to submit a Freedom of Information Act (FOIA) request for them.

      Information about how to do that is available on this website

      I am still waiting to hear back from our southwest regional office staff about the best point of contact for you to request any other audio recordings that may exist, they have told me they will let me know by tomorrow.

      Hope that helps, if you have any additional questions or need more information, let me know, thanks!

      Jennifer Jones, APR Public Affairs Specialist U.S. Forest Service
      Washington Office, Fire and Aviation Management
      National fnteragency Fire Center
      Office (208) 387-5437
      Mobile (208) 631-XXXX

      NOTE: James Gordon Meek responds immediately and says he will send the FOIA for the now-known-to-exist AFUE RECORDINGS the very next day…

      From: Meek, James ( ABC NEWS – Investigative Producer )
      Sent: 1 Aug 2013 20:23:39 -0400
      To: Jones, Jennifer E -FS
      Subject: Re: AFUE Study Recordings

      Thanks. I’ll send the FOIA tonight.

      Continued next ‘Reply’…

      • says

        AFUE Study Recordings——–

        There is plenty of evidence existing to not disclose these recordings which attaches more importance to them and makes us wonder what can possibly be contained there?

        • says

          FOIA information and radio transmissions —
          By what criteria other than personal info can this Ido be redacted? I am speaking specifically of radio communication between pilots and those on the ground from 3:00-4:30 p.m. On June 30,2013.

          • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

            Reply to Diane lomas post on February 9, 2017 at 1:53 pm

            >> Diane lomas said…
            >> FOIA information and radio transmissions —
            >> By what criteria other than personal info can this Ido be redacted?

            The U.S. Government official FOIA website
            Frequently Asked Questions

            From that official U.S. Government website…
            What are FOIA EXEMPTIONS?

            Not all records are required to be released under the FOIA. Congress established NINE exemptions from disclosure for certain categories of information to protect against certain harms, such as an invasion of personal privacy, or harm to law enforcement investigations. The FOIA authorizes agencies to withhold information when they reasonably foresee that disclosure would harm an interest protected by one of these nine exemptions. The nine exemptions are described below.

            Exemption 1: Information that is classified to protect national security.

            Exemption 2: Information related solely to the internal personnel rules and practices of an agency.

            Exemption 3: Information that is prohibited from disclosure by another federal law.

            Exemption 4: Trade secrets or commercial or financial information that is confidential or privileged.

            Exemption 5: Privileged communications within or between agencies, including those protected by the:

            – Deliberative Process Privilege ( provided the records were created less than 25 years before the date on which they were requested )
            – Attorney-Work Product Privilege
            – Attorney-Client Privilege

            Exemption 6: Information that, if disclosed, would invade another individual’s personal privacy.

            Exemption 7: Information compiled for law enforcement purposes that:

            – 7(A). Could reasonably be expected to interfere with enforcement proceedings
            – 7(B). Would deprive a person of a right to a fair trial or an impartial adjudication
            – 7(C). Could reasonably be expected to constitute an unwarranted invasion of personal privacy
            – 7(D). Could reasonably be expected to disclose the identity of a confidential source
            – 7(E). Would disclose techniques and procedures for law enforcement investigations or prosecutions
            – 7(F). Could reasonably be expected to endanger the life or physical safety of any individual

            Exemption 8: Information that concerns the supervision of financial institutions.

            Exemption 9: Geological information on wells.

            What are FOIA EXCLUSIONS?

            Congress has provided special protection in the FOIA for three narrow categories of law enforcement and national security records. The provisions protecting those records are known as “exclusions.” The first exclusion protects the existence of an ongoing criminal law enforcement investigation when the subject of the investigation is unaware that it is pending and disclosure could reasonably be expected to interfere with enforcement proceedings. The second exclusion is limited to criminal law enforcement agencies and protects the existence of informant records when the informant’s status has not been officially confirmed.. The third exclusion is limited to the Federal Bureau of Investigation and protects the existence of foreign intelligence or counterintelligence, or international terrorism records when the existence of such records is classified. Records falling within an exclusion are not subject to the requirements of the FOIA. So, when an office or agency responds to your request, its response will encompass those records that are subject to the FOIA.

            The most ‘abused’ exemption ( and, indeed, the one used most often by the U.S. Forestry Service as they try to make it look like they are cooperating but also still trying to ‘hide’ information ) is the ‘Deliberative Process’ exemption.

            Some Federal managers and employees ( like those at U.S. Forestry ) think that ‘exemption’ means they can ‘exclude’ anything that shows anyone even asking other managers or employees a ‘question’… and then also redacting the ‘responses’ they might be receiving to those ‘questions’.

            That was never the ‘intent’ of the ‘Deliberative Process’ FOIA exemption.

            When U.S. Forestry finally supplied the written ‘Unit Logs’ from all of the Blue Ridge Hotshots with regards to the Yarnell incident… they also tried to claim that the MASSIVE REDACTIONS they performed on THOSE ‘Unit Logs’ were due to what THEY called ‘Sensitive Information’.

            ‘Sensitive’… to WHO?… and WHY?

            They have never said.

            Look at the list of valid FOIA exemptions above.

            There is nothing that says ‘Sensitive Information’.

            They ( USFS ) continue to think THEY can pretend to be a branch of the ‘military’ and make decisions about what information they think is ‘Sensitive’ ( or not ) like it was some kind of ‘National Security’ issue, or something.

            Total horseshit.

            If all Federal agencies were free to decide, for themselves, what information THEY consider to be ‘Sensitive’ or ‘Emnbarassing’… then the response to most FOIAs would be nothing but piles and piles of BLACK PAGES.

            >> Diane lomas also said…
            >> I am speaking specifically of radio communication between
            >> pilots and those on the ground from 3:00-4:30 p.m. On June 30,2013.

            When U.S. Forestry was finally forced to release the known-to-exist AFUE Air Study recordings ( made by their own employees being paid to participate in their own USFS-funded Aerial Firefighting Study )… someone at USFS still took the time to go through every recording and manually insert an audible ‘tone’ at every point in the recordings where the beginning of a transmission was identifying either the aircraft calling/responding, or the designations of the responders themselves.

            That was an enormous effort on someone’s part… yet they still ‘screwed up’ and forgot to insert ‘tones’ into the recordings when the airmen were actually using someone’s NAME while they were talking to them on the radio.

            But what that ‘effort’ demonstrates is that the USFS lawyers KNEW they could no longer keep the ‘recordings’ a secret under any of the NINE valid FOIA ‘exemptions’.

            The effort they made to ‘tone out’ personal aircraft identifications and call-signs just meant they were admitting the only valid FOIA ‘exemption’ they could ‘cling’ to would be the one(s) about ‘personal information’, or something.

            When the SAIT was also finally forced to release its own ‘evidence’ folder… it also included an ‘Aerial Firefighting Study’ folder.

            But even after all the effort made to ‘hide’ the identities of aircraft and airmen in the USFS FOIA release… the SAIT had made no such effort and there were no ‘tones’ inserted into THEIR copies of the recordings at all.

            It is still not known if that ‘Aerial Firefighting Study’ folder in the SAIT evidence package actually contains ALL of the ‘recordings’ made by the AFUE Air Study team on June 30, 2013.

            According to already-public USFS emails… AFUE team member and USFS employee Eric Panebaker handed an actual ‘hard drive’ over to the Yarnell SAIT investigation team on July 5, 2013, just after the SAIT had received its initial ‘Delegation of Authority’ to start their investigation.

            That known-to-exist ‘hard drive’ handed over to the SAIT just days after the tragedy supposedly contained EVERYTHING that Eric Panebaker and his fellow AFUE Air Study team members had been ‘recording’ on June 30, 2013.

            That ‘hard drive’ ( and the information on it ) was the ‘property’ of U.S. Forestry, since they ( and us taxpayers, of course ) were the ones paying for that ‘Study’ and for ALL of the hardware being used.

            But it is still NOT KNOWN if what was eventually contained in the SAIT ‘Aerial Firefighting Study’ evidence folder contains the TOTALITY of what was actually ON that known-to-exist ‘hard drive’ that Eric Panebaker handed to the SAIT on July 5, 2013.

            • Robert the Second says

              A couple links regarding Government and public records which includes any and all AFUE recordings and / or transcripts.

              18 USC 1663. Protection of Government Property – Protection of Public Records and Documents.


              “There are several important aspects to this offense. First, it is a specific intent crime. This means that the defendant must act intentionally with knowledge that he is violating the law. See United States v. Simpson, 460 F.2d 515, 518 (9th Cir. 1972). Moreover, one case has suggested that this specific intent requires that the defendant know that the documents involved are public records. See United States v. DeGroat, 30 F. 764, 765 (E.D.Mich. 1887).

              “The acts proscribed by this section are defined broadly. Essentially three types of conduct are prohibited by 18 U.S.C. § 2071(a). These are: (1) concealment, removal, mutilation, obliteration or destruction of records; (2) any attempt to commit these proscribed acts; and (3) carrying away any record with the intent to conceal, remove, mutilate or destroy it. It should be noted that all of these acts involve either misappropriation of or damage to public records. ….”

              18 USC 1664. Protection of Government Property – Theft of Government Information


              “Section 641 of Title 18 prohibits theft or receipt of stolen government information as well as theft of the documents, computer discs, etc., that contain the information. ….”

              ” … the Criminal Division believes that it is inappropriate to bring a prosecution under 18 U.S.C. § 641 when: (1) the subject of the theft is intangible property, i.e., government information owned by, or under the care, custody, or control of the United States; (2) the defendant obtained or used the property primarily for the purpose of disseminating it to the public; …”

              • WantsToKnowTheTruth says


                Anyone who has the ‘power to subpoena’ can issue one to just about anyone, for just about anything.

                That includes ‘depositions’… which can happen outside of a courtroom but you are still ‘under oath’ and required to tell “The TRUTH, the WHOLE truth and nothing BUT the TRUTH” and subject to the same potential perjury charges as would be the case in an actual courtroom.

                In all cases… a person still has the right the take the ‘5th ammendment’. ( and not answer any questions )… but remember that many people are confused about the 5th amendment.

                It can only be invoked if you think answering the question(s) might lead to your OWN ‘self-incrimination’.

                You can’t invoke the 5th amendment just because you think answering a certain question might be bad for someone ELSE.

                In other words… you can’t invoke the 5th amendment and refuse to answer question(s) just to protect your ‘buddies’.

    • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

      USFS EMAILS ( continued )…

      So now that USFS employee Jennifer Jones has CONFIRMED to ABC NEWS Investigative Producer James Meek ( at 5:02 PM on August 1, 2013 ) that the AFUE RECORDINGS he was asking her about really DO exist… here comes the ABC NEWS FOIA request.

      It actually wasn’t the very next day, as Meek had indicated he would do.

      It obviously went through the ABC NEWS lawyers first so they could ‘get it right’… and include all the legal ‘shots across the bow’ to USFS about WHY they should not ( and could not ) try to ‘withhold’ the now-known-to-exist AFUE RECORDINGS.

      On August 5, 2013, ABC NEWS Investigative Reporter Producer James Gordon Meek
      then made his first FOIA request directly to US Forestry.

      NOTE: ABC Producer James Gordon Meek still did not know, as of this email, that these AFUE recordings were already being referred to by ‘people in the know’ ( and by Mike Dudley and his SAIT team, who had the actual ‘raw recordings’ for over a month now ) as the ‘Panebaker Recordings’, after AFUE Group Member and USFS employee Eric Panebaker.

      This is a VERY well written FOIA request coming from ABC NEWS…

      From: Meek, James – ABC NEWS Producer – ( mailto: James.Meek (at) )
      Sent: Monday, August 05, 2013 12:39 AM
      To: Jones, Jennifer E-FS; Chambers, Lawrence F -FS; FS-wo FOIA
      Cc: Galli, Cindy
      Subject: ABC NEWS FOIA REQUEST: Yarnell Fire radio recordings by USFS

      JAMES GORDON MEEK Investigative Producer ABC NEWS
      1717 Desales St., NW, Suite 440
      Washington, DC 20036 (202) 236-1931

      United States Forest Service
      U.S. Department of Agriculture
      USDA Forest Service – FOIA Service Center
      1400 Independence Avenue, SW Mail Stop: 1143
      Washington, DC 20250-1143

      5 August 2013


      Dear Sir or Madam:

      ABC NEWS requests under the Freedom of Information Act the following sets of files which currently reside within the offices of the United States Forest Service of the United States Department of Agriculture:

      1) A copy of the audio files and/or tape recordings of all nearby radio traffic made by an Aerial Firefighting Use and Effectiveness (AFUE) study crew in the vicinity of the Yarnell Hill, Arizona, Fire on 30 June 2013, when the Prescott, Arizona, Fire Department’s Granite Mountain Interagency Hotshot Crew engaged the fire and 19 firefighters from the crew were subsequently killed by the blaze. The existence of these recordings in USFS holdings was confirmed in an email from public affairs officer Jennifer Jones on August 1, 2013 (attached).

      2) We also request a copy of any and all transcript or transcripts of the above mentioned audio files and/or tape recordings.

      3) I also request a copy of any memoranda, reports or other documents concerning the above mentioned tape recordings and/or digital audio files.

      This FOIA request is by a representative of the news media for news reporting purposes.

      This request should be placed into the FOIA processing fee category “representative of the news media,” and therefore no fees should be assessed for search, review nor duplication costs of the first 100 pages of records.

      I agree to pay reasonable costs associated with the reproduction of the requested records, up to a maximum of$200 without requesting my further permission.

      In order to assist you in properly classifying this non-commercial FOIA request, I assert that I am a professional journalist actively engaged in news reporting as an investigative producer in Washington, D.C., for ABC NEWS, a major news organization. The records I am requesting will be used for news reporting purposes. Please release all segregable and releasable portions in an expedited fashion.

      It will be highly inappropriate for the U.S. Forest Service to withhold these materials.

      For example, exemption b(6) and b(7)(c) would not be applicable.

      Exemption 6 protects information about individuals in “personnel and medical files and similar files” when the disclosure of such information “would constitute a clearly unwarranted invasion of personal privacy.”

      Determining whether there is a clearly unwarranted invasion of personal privacy requires a balancing of the public’s right to disclosure against the individual’s right to privacy. The release of these materials would not be a clearly unwarranted invasion of personal privacy.

      Many of the individuals are deceased and no protectable privacy interest exists. Any residual family interest is strongly counterbalanced by the families’ interest in getting to the truth about this horrific incident, and in preventing any such future occurrence.

      Furthermore, the public interest in preventing future such disasters strongly dictates release.

      The Court of Appeals for the District of Columbia Circuit has declared that, “under Exemption 6, the presumption in favor of disclosure is as strong as can be found anywhere in the Act.”

      The D.C. Circuit has observed that if there is a public interest in disclosure that outweighs the privacy interest, the information should be disclosed.

      The President has issued instructions to agencies to presume disclosure.

      Presidential Memorandum for Heads of Executive Departments and Agencies Concerning the Freedom of lnformation Act, 74 Fed. Reg. 4683 (Jan. 21, 2009) emphasizes that the Freedom of Information Act reflects a “profound national commitment to ensuring an open Government” and directing agencies to “adopt a presumption in favor of disclosure.”

      ln this case, the public interest is strong because the information reveals the operations or activities of the government in carrying out a firefighting operation that led to the deaths of 19 firefighters.

      The U.S. Forest Service may be erroneously tempted to rely on the Favish case or the New York Times v. NASA case to deny access to these records. The Favish case is readily distinguishable because the Supreme Court ruled that the protectable privacy interest in the Favish death scene photographs was based on the family’s fears of “intense scrutiny by the media” and cultural traditions relating to the treatment of bodies.

      In this case, these factors are inapplicable; the subject matter is different and the families want to see the TRUTH come out about this incident.

      The New York Times case is also distinguishable because the purpose of withholding the records was to protect family members from the pain of hearing final words of loved ones. In that situation, the words had no probative value in learning what happened to astronauts. In the present case of the requested audio files or tapes, the communications recorded encompassed a broad sweep of time, not just the final moments, and more importantly, the communications help to inform the public of what transpired, given conflicting accounts.

      There is significant media and public interest about what went wrong at Yarnell Hill. The U.S. Forest Service should not deny access to the requested records because they may be embarrassing; that rationale is not permissible.

      Similarly, Exemption 7(C) provides protection for law enforcement information, the disclosure of which “could reasonably be expected to constitute an unwarranted invasion of personal privacy.”

      While the audio file or tape might be considered, loosely, law enforcement information, the exemption is also inapplicable for the reasons described above. The public interest in this material outweighs the negligible privacy interest.

      The presumption of openness described by the PRESIDENT in his Freedom of Information Act Memorandum applies as well.

      James Gordon Meek ( Investigative Producer for ABC NEWS )

      Continued next ‘Reply’…

    • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

      USFS EMAILS ( continued )…

      At the same time that ABC NEWS Investigative Producer James Meek submitted that FOIA for the AFUE RECORDINGS… he also ( apparently ) sent an email directly to USFS Director ( at that time ) Tom Harbor requesting to know the ‘chain of custody’ for the AFUE RECORDINGS that were now known to exist.

      I say ‘apparently’ because while we see ‘Jennifer Jones’ responding to this ‘request’ ( and referring to Meek’s request to Harbor )… USFS did NOT supply the actual email that Meek sent to Harbor.

      NOTE: The following email is the same one already printed up above in the “SHORT STORY” section which PROVES that USFS Mike Dudley and his SAIT were in full possession of a ‘hard drive’ supposedly containing ALL of the AFUE recordings as early as July 5 or July 6, 2013.

      So TWO days after receiving the ABC NEWS FOIA request… on August 7, 2013… USFS Press Officer ‘Jennifer Jones’ responded to ABC Investigative Producer James Gordon Meek…

      Notice, at this point, that USFS Press Officer ‘Jennifer Jones’ is now ‘including’ the absolute head of US Forestry ( at that time ), ‘Tom Harbour’, on the emails back to ABC NEWS… and Jones mentions that this ‘timeline of possession’ and ‘chain of custody’ information regarding the ‘Panebaker AFUE Recordings’ was the result of a direct ‘request’ from ABC News Producer James Meek sent to USFS Director ‘Tom Harbour’ himself…

      From: Jones, Jennifer E -FS ( mailto – jejones (at) )
      Sent: Wednesday, August 07, 2013 11:42 AM
      To: Meek, James ( ABC NEWS Investigative Producer )
      Cc: Harbour, Tom -FS; Drelick, Donna -FS; Kay, Leo F -FS
      Subject: AFUE Recordings Info

      To: James Gordon Meek
      ABC NEWS Investigative Producer
      24-hour mobile/text: 202-236-XXXX james.meek (at)

      Hi James, per your request to Tom Harbour, here is information on the chain of custody of the AFUE recordings – if you have any questions about this, please let me know, thanks!

      June 30, 2013 – A U.S. Forest Service employee who was with the AFUE group when they were recording the data on the Yarnell Hill Fire asked the group to provide him with all of the data that they had collected.

      July 1, 2013 – The U.S. Forest Service employee took possession of the data and contacted their supervisor to find out when the Serious Accident Investigation Team (SAIT) would be arriving in Phoenix and how the AFUE data could be provided to them.

      July 4, 2013 – The U.S. Forest Service employee met with the SAIT and told them that they had raw data from the AFUE group that was on the Yarnell Hill fire on the day of the incident.

      July 5 or 6, 2013 – The U.S. Forest Service employee passed off the hard drive containing the data to an SAIT team member.

      Jennifer Jones, APR Public Affairs Specialist U.S. Forest Service
      Washington Office, Fire and Aviation Management
      National lnteragency Fire Center
      Office (208) 387-5437
      Mobile (208) 631-0406

      2 minutes later.. ABC NEWS Investigative Producer James Gordon Meek ‘acknowledges’ the email he just received from ‘Jennifer Jones’… ( and CCs ‘Tom Harbour’ as well )…

      From: Meek, James
      Sent: 7 Aug 2013 11:44:45 -0400
      To: Jones, Jennifer E -FS
      Cc: Harbour, Tom -FS;Drelick, Donna -FS;Kay, Leo F -FS;Galli, Cindy
      Subject: RE: AFUE Recordings Info

      Thank you.

      9 minutes later… ABC Investigative Producer James Gordon Meek sends this ‘followup’ email to USFS Director ‘Tom Harbour’ himself… with the ‘chain of possession’ timeline on the AFUE recordings that Meek just received attached to the email…

      James Gordon Meek is ‘appreciative’ of the ‘chain of custody’ information… but he now wants to know whose ass he needs to light a fire under to get the ACTUAL RECORDINGS…

      From: Meek, James
      Sent: 7 Aug 2013 11:53:12 -0400
      To: Kay, Leo F -FS; Harbour, Tom -FS
      Subject: RE: AFUE Recordings Info

      Gentlemen – This is helpful. But if we could also determine today how to release the recordings as soon as possible to ABC News, I’d be grateful to get some guidance on that. I understand the sensitivities, but as I said to you both yesterday, and wrote in our FOIA request, the public interest clearly outweighs any impulse not to release it.

      The State of Arizona quickly released its audio recordings of DPS phone calls and radio traffic two weeks ago, so precedent has been established for the USFS to do it expeditiously, particularly in light of the fact that USFS officials failed to publicly disclose this evidence was collected on Yarnell Hill, much less disclose it to USFS leadership ( apparently ) or to Arizona’s Forester Scott Hunt or the Prescott Fire Department’s leadership prior to an ABC News inquiry on 1 August. I also offered in a call to Larry chambers last week to make our request outside of the FOIA process, and I received no guidance whatsoever.

      James Gordon Meek
      ABC NEWS Investigative Producer
      24-hour mobile/text: 202-236-1931 – james.meek (at)

      Continued next ‘Reply’…

      • Robert the Second says


        Thank you once again for all your thorough, informative posts. Please keep up your usual good work.

    • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

      USFS EMAILS ( continued )…

      In-between the time when USFS Public Affairs Specialist Jennifer Jones first admitted to ABC NEWS Inestigative Producer James Gordon Meek that the Yarnell AFUE recordings DID exist ( on August 1, 2013 ) and the time when ABC NEWS submitted it’s FOIA request for those recordings ( on August 5, 2013 ), Jennifer Jones was sent ‘another’ email to James Meek.

      On August 2, 2013, at 1:06 PM, USFS Public Affairs Specialist Jennifer Jones sent the following ‘new’ ( unsolicited ) followup email to ABC NEWS Investigative Producer James Gordon Meek.

      It contains ‘other information’ that Jones had now been ‘fed’ ( by others ) about ‘audio recordings’ that might exist…

      From: Jones, Jennifer E -FS ( jejones (at) )
      Sent: Aug 2, 2013, at 1:06 PM
      To: Meek, James ( ABC NEWS Investigative Producer )
      Subject: Airtanker/Dispatch Recording Follow-up

      Hi James, per our conversations over the last couple of days, here is additional info I have gained pertaining to any audio recordings that might exist in relation to the Yarnell Hill Fire:

      * The regional dispatch center, ( Southwest Coordination Center in Albuquerque, NM ) does not record audio nor do airtanker bases.

      * Audio recordings may or may not have been made at local dispatch centers, such as the Prescott dispatch center. To find out what recordings may exist, and to request copies, please contact Carrie Dennett, public affairs officer for the Arizona State Forestry Division, her email is carriedennett (at)

      * In case you’re interested, here is a link to the Yarnell Hill fire aircraft log. It has all the information on the aircraft that were dispatched, the Estimated Time of Arrivals as well as the information about the weather hold at the Prescott dispatch center for the airtankers. I am told by staff there is an error in the 6/30 1731 log entry where it states that T-911 (DC-10) was coming from Prescott, apparently it was flying out of Mesa-Gateway.

      Hope that helps, thanks!

      Jennifer Jones, APR Public Affairs Specialist – U.S. Forest Service
      Washington Office, Fire and Aviation Management
      National lnteragency Fire Center
      Office (208) 387-5437
      Mobile (208) 631-XXXX

      Then James Gordon Meek responded…

      From: Meek, James ( ABC NEWS – Investigative Producer )
      Sent: 2 Aug 2013 16:22:59 -0400
      To: Jones, Jennifer E -FS
      Subject: Re: Airtanker/Dispatch Recording Follow-up

      Thanks. But the USFS study aircraft DID record radio traffic, you said yesterday.

      NOTE: The ‘quote’ that James Gordon Meek is referring to from ‘yesterday’ ( August 1 ) is when Jennifer Jones confirmed that the AFUE Study in Yarnell WAS ‘recording audio’…

      The day before ( August 1 ) Jennifer Jones had finally admitted to Meek…

      “Hi James, I have confirmed that an Aerial Firefighting Use and Effectiveness (AFUE) study crew was in the vicinity of the Yarnell Hill fire when the accident with the Granite Mountain Hotshot Crew occurred and WAS RECORDING AUDIO.”

      NOTE: All of the ’email exchanges’ above ( including the FOIA request from ABC NEWS Investigative Producer ) eventually led to the ‘release’ of REDACTED copies of ( just SOME of? ) the Panabaker AFUE raw audio and video recordings that Mike Dudley and the SAIT already had in their possession since just days after the tragedy.

      What was eventually ‘released’ in reponse to this ABC NEWS FOIA request were copies of the recordings whereby someone had actually taken the time to ‘TONE OUT’ all references to ANY ‘call signs’ or ‘aircraft designations’ in ALL of the VIDEO and AUDIO recordings.

      It wasn’t until the SAIT was FORCED to release its ( supposedly ) complete ‘evidence folder’ that there were finally ‘unredacted’ copies of these AFUE recordings available… but it is still NOT KNOWN if that ‘Aerial Firefighting Study’ FOLDER that was in the FOIA-forced SAIT ‘evidence’ release contains ALL of the AFUE ‘raw-data’ that was on that original ‘hard-drive’ that was physically ‘handed over’ to the SAIT team just 5 days after the tragedy and immediately after they had ‘assembled’ in Arizona.

      The WHEREABOUTS of that ORIGINAL ‘hard-drive’ which ( supposedly ) contained
      ALL of the AFUE raw-data ( including possible Air-To-Ground radio channel recordings
      as well as Air-To-Air radio channel recordings ) is still UNKNOWN.

      • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

        Minor ‘typos’ in the first paragraph of the last post.

        I said ‘was sent’ when I should have just said ‘sent’.

        That August 2 email from Jennifer Jones to ABC NEWS Investigative Producer James Gordon Meek was just a ‘followup’ email that Jones herself SENT back to Meek.

        So that first paragraph above should have read like this…

        In-between the time when USFS Public Affairs Specialist Jennifer Jones first admitted to ABC NEWS Investigative Producer James Gordon Meek that the Yarnell AFUE recordings DID exist ( on August 1, 2013 ) and the time when ABC NEWS submitted its FOIA request for those recordings ( on August 5, 2013 ), Jennifer Jones SENT ‘another’ email to James Meek.

      • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

        As for the following statement from Jennifer Jones in her August 2 ‘followup’
        email back to ABC NEWS Investigative Producer James Meek…

        * Audio recordings may or may not have been made at local dispatch centers,

        On October 18, 2013, ADOSH conducted their own in-person interview with Norval Tyler, the DIRECTOR of the Arizona State Forestry Dispatch Center.

        The very FIRST question he was asked was whether or not that ‘Dispatch Center’ had the ability to RECORD AUDIO… and Tyler said YES.

        From the very start of ADOSH’s interview with Norval Tyler…

        Q2 = Marshal Krotenberg, ADOSH Lead Investigator
        Q3 = Dave Larsen, WFA / ADOSH Investigator ( Rest in Peace )
        A = Norval Tyler, Director of the Arizona State Forestry Dispatch Center
        36 Q3: Can I, can I get the name of the interviewee again? I didn’t, I didn’t catch
        37 that.
        39 A: Norval Tyler; first name N-O-R-V-A-L, last name Tyler, T-Y-L-E-R.
        41 Q3: Thank you very much.
        43 Q2: Norval I-I – how is — how is the communication center working, currently?
        45 A: How is it currently working? In what aspect?
        47 Q2: Are all the features and functions that, uh, are intended to be functioning
        48 functioning as they should?
        50 A: They are, yes.
        52 Q2: Um, have there been any, uh, communication problems in the last, uh, year
        53 maybe that, that’s been problematic at the Deer Valley Center?
        55 A: Nothing with the hardware that’s in place at Deer Valley.
        57 Q2: Um, does, uh, d- do you have the ability to, uh, record audio?
        59 A: We do.
        61 Q2: And has that always – was that in place in June?
        63 A: There are audio recording capabilities on our – not on all our consoles, but
        64 they – there are on three-quarters of the consoles in there.


      • Robert the Second says


        Maybe …. but it’s obviously not in either the SAIR or the ADOSH Reports.

        I would hope and think that it was at least considered and/or discussed amongst the GMHS Crew itself and/or with the Squad Bosses and/or with Acting Supt. Steed!

        However, I doubt it would have been discussed with DIVS A Marsh because that would have been a Crew decision, not necessarily a DIVS one.

    • says

      Eric Panebaker

      I am trying to understand Eric Panebaker’s role in the firefighting evidence of the Yarnell Hill Fire.
      Was he an employee of the USFS when he collected this evidence?
      The air tanker study was done by the USFS from what I have read.
      Does any of this overrule FOIA requests?

      It appears that all legal avenues have been pursued through FOIA requests etc. Are there other options such as assistance from senators and govt officials to release this information?

      • Robert the Second says


        Eric Panebaker works in Region 5 – Pacific Southwest (Calif., Hawaii, Guam, Trust Territories) for R5, Regional Office,Fire And Aviation Management. Email address is

        Yes, the air tanker study was done by the USFS, a Federal Agency

        The FOIA request route is the means of access.

        All legal avenues are in the process of being pursued through FOIA requests ,etc.

        The other options such as assistance from senators relies on information form and govt officials to release this information.

  13. Gary Olson says

    The Woodsman wrote,

    Trump’s message seems to be in response to a intel agency purposely sowing mis-information in order to benefit certain political establishments over another in the midst of an election & transfer of power.


    I’m not well researched on that entire story about the Russian hacking our election which turned out to be made up by our own intel community out of whole cloth.

    And I say, I missed that whole thing but I don’t watch that much Fox News?. The only part of that I’m aware of is that Brennan and everyone else has said from day one there were no indication the vote tallies had been manipulated by anyone or that any voting machines were hacked into?

    The only part of that issue I am aware of, are allegations that the Russian intelligence services, primarily the GRU, released damaging information from Podesta’s (and others in the Clinton campaign) email account to embarrass and discredit Hillary Clinton and although the Russians had similar information from hacks into the Republican campaign they didn’t release any of that through a third party to Julian Assange to publish in Wikileaks.

    Bottom line…I have never heard anyone say Trump didn’t win legitimately by having the needed votes to win the Electoral College and therefore legitimately won the election. The only thing that is an unknown…is however many people voted for Trump or didn’t vote for Hillary by either staying home or giving a protest for Gary Johnson or Jill Stein.

    That is why I am following both Obama’s and Clinton’s example and accepting Trump as the legitimate President of the United States. I think that is part of my job as an American Citizen. Trump won and that is why I think it is part of his job to now stop SHITTING IN FRONT OF ME AND THEN RUBBING MY NOSE IN IT while he smirks that tiny round hole in his face he calls his mouth and making nonsensical and erratic gestures with his tiny hands because it’s distracting. BUT…he can’t seem to stop himself…or control his mouth or tiny hand gestures.

    President Trump is NOT the President of the Republican Party Base…he is the President of the United States and I think he should start acting like it.

    Which is just one reason I am a far better man than he is. Why is it important if he keeps hurting my feelings? Because there are tens of millions of people just like me and the biggest tool a President has is the support of the majority American people and without that…he will have a failed Presidency and then we will all lose.

    Oh and one more thing. From your description of yourself and socioeconomic status…Donald Trump would,t walk across the street to piss on you if you were on fire. I believe however you think President Obama or Hillary were or are…both of them would have least pissed on you.

    • Gary Olson says

      Oh and one more thing. From your description of yourself and socioeconomic status…Donald Trump wouldn’t walk across the street to piss on you if you were on fire. I firmly believe however, regardless of what you think about President Obama and Hillary…both of them will at least piss on you, especially if you are on fire.

      • Gary Olson says

        OK…just ONE more post on this subject and then I am going to let it go. I got some ridin’ to do.

        The other day I mentioned the vast army of private contractors who made and are still making the wars of both Iraq and Afghanistan possible while keeping troop levels at artificially low numbers.

        This has enabled private companies like former Vice President Dick Cheney’s firm Halliburton to make unimaginable profits from those wars. Halliburton focuses on service jobs like truck drivers but other firms hire private armies of security contractors. I used to work with three guys who disappeared to that part of the world several years ago to work as security contractors.

        The founder of what was the biggest and most successful mercenary firm was called Blackwater (my former partner went to work for them in about 2004) and was named Erik Prince. Blackwater did have the contract to provide security for all of the state department staff but were finally put out of business in name only after several of them lit up a roundabout with automatic weapons after somebody’s car backfired and they killed a couple of dozen Iraqi civilians.

        Erik Prince then went on to rename Blackwater and start building a private army for the United Arab Emirates because their ruling class is not the same as the majority of their citizens so they need mercs who will kill their own people on demand. Erik Prince is now working for the Trump transition team hiring executives to run the federal government.

        Guess who is Erik Prince’s sister is? That’s right, she is President Trump’s pick to be the Secretary of Education…Betsy Devos, who made a name for herself, other than by being the heiress to Amway, by privatizing schools in Michigan. And that is now what she is going to try and do nationwide with lots of Department of Education money. She and her Republican donors then own the companies that run the private schools and they make a butt load of money, taxpayer money then goes to their bottom line rather than into educating children or paying teachers livable wages.

        Republican politicians equals privatization because they and their donors can make unimaginable wealth off of the sweat of men like the Woodsman. Private prisons has been a huge best seller for them now nationwide for decades. Why should some of the people who read this blog care?

        A lot of forestry technician work is already contracted out, building fuel breaks, planting trees AND wildland firefighting. Hear me now and believe me later (SNL) IF you are voting for your pocketbooks, you had damn well better vote for a progressive next time or you are going to vote yourself out of any chance for a career because it will just be a few more short steps until almost all wildland firefighting is contracted out and then there goes any sense of normalcy, benefits, or pensions, while they hire the same type of team (retired USFS) who ran the Yarnell Hill Fire on contract.

        That is all those boys were, hired fire mercs who had no accountability when the shit hit the fan because many of them even refused to even show up and answer questions.

        You think it is bad now. Just wait a few more years years of Republican, especially Team Trump control and you might very well see it get a whole lot worse, especially after they privatize Medicare, Social Security and most of the rest of the federal government, not so they can do a better job or save money, but just so they can make UNIMAGINABLE profits, just sayin….

        • Gary Olson says

          Oh…and one more thing. Have you noticed that little round hole in Trump’s face he calls his mouth…looks just like the mouth on a blow up sex doll?

          Not that I ever seen one of those close up you understand. But check it out and you will see I am right.

          Hey great news everyone. I found President Trump’s illegitimate daughter (or at least ONE of his illegitimate daughters/children)…Dooneese.

        • Woodsman says


          Thank you for the background info & your honest concern with the ‘working class’ folks like me. I appreciate it. I may end up getting screwed but I haven’t met a politician yet that has my interests in mind over theirs That’s why I believe that I’m personally responsible for my own success or failure based on my own merits & God given abilities. It’s possible to create a system of equal opportunity but not one of equal outcomes for all people.

          I also get a huge kick out of the banter back & forth between two antique hotshot crew bosses about the fires of yesterday – good stuff! Your respective primary responsibilities were to ensure the general welfare of your crews & I’m certain you both did that at all times to the best of your abilities. I found it an enormous challenge being the leader of a type 2 hand crew which was fraught with many disadvantages over what both you & RTS enjoyed. Primarily you 2 enjoyed a more cohesive group of men that were accustomed to working together. The worst part for me was building & maintaining this type of cohesiveness with a gaggle of men thrown together by management at the last minute for a 14-21 day assignment populated with wff that many were total strangers to the rest. Maybe my leadership style or expectations of crew performance was too high but it was no cake walk holding these crews together to meet the mission while getting no one injured or killed – so HATS OFF to both of you! I’ve always respected the type 1 crews & at the same time been envious of the way they work so well together. I never asked any of my crew to do something I had not done before many times. I never ate before them or had better perks than they did. I looked out for them first & management later once my crew was taken care of.

          Thank you both (you & RTS – Bob too!) for the many lessons and laughs.

          I would ask you to consider in the future that ‘privatization’ & organizations manipulating government (the people) so that they can enjoy ‘UNIMAGINABLE profits’ off the backs of the taxpayers IS NOT the exclusive domain of one political party over another. ‘The guise’ of Republican or Democrat makes neither ‘right.’ ‘Climate Issues’, ‘Health Care Issues’ and many other ‘Issues’ are linked to many for-profit & ‘non-profit’ making simply obscene amounts of money. In fact, it’s ALL about the money. I would just ask the you ‘share the wealth’ when rightfully condemning this vile behavior across the board regardless of political affiliation. The behavior on behalf on 1 ideology over another still does not excuse the behavior or make it better or worse.

          The Clinton foundation, in 2014, had:
          “Total revenue (line 12) ……………………… $177,804,612.00
          Total grants to charity (line 13) ………………$5,160,385. 00
          Total expenses of………………………. ……….$91,281,145.00
          Expenses include: salaries (line 15)……….$34,838,106.00
          Fund raising fees (line 16a)……………….$850, 803.00
          Other expenses (line 17)……………$50,431,851.00!

          They list 486 employees (line 5).

          So it took 486 people who are paid $34.8 million and $91.3 million in fees and ‘expenses’, to give away $5.1 MILLION WHICH IS LESS THAN 3% OF TOTAL REVENUES!

          Line 22 shows ending year net assets/fund balances of $332,471,349.00 which is up $85,171,891 from the year prior!”

          Would you classify this example as ‘unimaginable profits?’ I’d add a link but I’d rather not get ‘Fostered’.

          Thanks to both you, RTS, & Bob for many lessons learned and the banter of 2 old hotshot crew bosses. I enjoy that! Good health & blessings to you guys!


          Ps: and now I discover that one of you antique hotshot crew bosses has PLEDGED his own $$, time, and put HIS OWN reputation ON THE LINE for HIS LOVE of people generally & firefighters and their families specifically in order to find the truth, maximize lessons learned, & prevent incidents like Yarnell Hill from ever happening again!!! THAT is an act of unselfish LOVE. God bless you & keep you in good health, Mr. Schoeffler!

          • Gary Olson says

            Touché Woodsman! I think we can both agree there is no one (at least that we know of) in Washington who is looking out for either one of our interests over their own. And I know that you know, that I do not have a dog in this fight, my lot is cast and I am satisfied with it. I am however, deeply concerned for those are following in my footsteps just like I followed in Bob’s and I want everyone to have the same opportunities that Bob, Fred and I had to have a great career, or at least a good one fightin’ fire…because it was an E-Ticket ride to be sure.

            And no…my job (at least) was much easier than running any lesser crew. I did have to take a Type II SWFF crew (Hispanic not Native American) to Washington State ONCE for a few weeks in the fall for some control burns that got a way from them as a CLO. It was without a doubt the worst experience I ever had on a fire line and one I did not want in the first place because I knew exactly how it was going to be and I was thankfully able to resist ever doing it again.

            As you know, hotshot crews by comparison are tight, cohesive, bonded, units held together by a common purpose and a common goal….fight fire safely, aggressively and effectively while making as much money as is possible which all comes under the banner of esprit de corps. Anyone, or anything that got in the way of that was at risk from the group, especially anyone from inside the crew itself.

            Almost everything we did, from donating blood as a crew (I told them they had two choices, they could either give blood…or sweat it. Everyone always chose to freely give) to sitting in a bar together for hours while reliving the last fire, the next fire or some other fire was designed around building our cohesiveness and esprit de corps as a unit.

            As a result, anyone who was not willing and able to be a productive and happy cog in the engine of a high performance turbo charged firefighting machine was not there for very long one way or the other. Hotshot crews usually police themselves and impose their own common mores, ethos, crew culture and traditions on each member of the crew that is willing and able to accept those conditions to become, and then remain part of the crew.

            Most hotshot crews are built upon so much experience and inner strength with deep,reserves of highly capable and willing crew members, who can seamlessly move up, down or sideways in the hierarchy and command and control structure as the situation demands without a problem. Especially in today’s WF world because of the professionalization of hotshot crews with the administrative standards that are now required of every hotshot crew. In short, a good hotshot crew can be put on autopilot if the situation on conditions arise and they can safely and productively manage themselves while doing the right thing.

            Which need I say it again? Is why what happened on the Yarnell Hill Fire is so…inexplicable as in…something that can not be explained or understood.

            A good hotshot crew, and I never worked on anything but a good hotshot crew, are a true joy and pleasure to manage. A bad hotshot crew can be one of your worst nightmares come true and should be avoided at all costs. Fortunately…there aren’t many crews like the Carson Hotshots around. And I seriously doubt they have changed except to maybe get worse since I last worked around them in 1988.

            But hey…thanks for the slow pitch. I must be in a mood to pontificate today.

            • Robert the Second says


              You posted: “… what happened on the Yarnell Hill Fire is so…inexplicable as in…something that can not be explained or understood.”

              Exactly. It painfully and fatally defies logic.

              And I believe that the Carson Hot Shot Crew, under recent new management, has vastly improved.

              • Gary Olson says

                RTS said, “It painfully and fatally defies logic.”

                And I say, I will never be able to describe exactly how I feel as succinctly or as well as you have.


                And I believe that the Carson Hot Shot Crew, under recent new management, has vastly improved.

                Thank God…those boys were more like an organized gang of hoodlums and thugs than hotshots back in the day. I used to feel so sorry for Al Lopez…they never gave him a break. I wouldn’t have lasted a week with that crew…I would have been disappeared if I hadn’t run away first. And I would have RUN..

                And I just have got to say it one more time with the Woodsman…you be the MAN!

          • Robert the Second says


            Once again, thank you for the kind words My Friend. We were obviously raised different, to stand up for what is right and what we believe in.

  14. Charlie says

    Agent orange slurry drop poster used during Dump Trump march in above link. This was interesting since some others are getting wise to the sickness and death caused by this secret ingredient infested ammonium sulfate and nitrate pollutant. Not only does it have its detrimental effects on humans, it instantly kills fish and other aquatic life then enters off into the Pacific Coast Ocean waters to cause the red bloom and the huge areas of dead ocean zones. Nitrogen and Phosphorous, the greater constituents of retardant, are the nutrients that feed these algae blooms that create the dead zones. Nitrates also come from sewage so combine the sewage with retardant and the algae bloom becomes even more abundant. In effect the agent orange retardant dumps are not only contributors to killing life but that of killing the planet. When the fish are all gone, then the planet itself becomes threatened. Sad part–these billion dollar retardant companies have all these facts–most of this is easily seen on Wikipedia, even to how retardant dumped on burning embers produces cyanide. Yet they are able to not only convince the public that this slop is good for us, but they can add certain “secret ingredients”–something they want to hide from public view since they are afraid these ingredients will be found for what they are–dangers to the health of people and pollutants to the environment. Fortunately there are a few wise people out there protesting the use of these poisons.

    Fred Shoeffler is becoming a hero in his own right. . He is suing to get his FOIA information. This type information should be instantly public because there are enough experienced and educated individuals with no hooks to be able to give unbiased opinions and advice to help prevent future casualties in the wild land fire fighting industry. They need every bit of that hidden and redacted information so they can explain the unthinkable–what the GMHS 19 were ;prodded into doing. By all accounts of experienced men of the ilk of Fred we know that every safety rule was broken, yet the Marsh and Steed, with Steed quite reluctant, did strictly follow orders, as did their subordinates to do the unthinkable in an Atom Bomb type wild fire even knowing weather conditions, the density of the manzanita, and the absolute gamble of lives with men armed with no more than pick axes (so called Pulaskis) to defend structures that could not even be defended with huge fire engines. On the death of these young men it is absolutely mandatory that their deaths and any information related to those deaths be made up to public scrutiny and wild land experienced fire men. Grand Jury should be convened to ascertain if criminal charges should be made. Unless all information is out and any responsible parties prosecuted, these practices will continue.

    There are a few who will continue in their quest for the truth in these wild fire disasters despite the billion dollar industry that wants to keep all truth hidden under the heroism banner by redactions, threats, and subterfuge. As citizens we applaud those citizens and wild land fire fighting elite who continue to work toward a better and safer wild land fire fighting situation. Many future lives will be saved in this work–generally young men in their 20’s, such as the GMHS young heroes who have had all their life deprived from them and the devastation it has brought to their families and loved ones.
    One can only give shame to those that have hidden the truth and had anything to do with causing this tragedy.

    If you really want to get the truth about Eric Marsh, go to the Prescott Fire Department and get your FOIA –you will be enlightened and many questions will be answered. Prescott Fire Department has been open and willing to answer questions to help people get at the truth and Joy has gotten all she asked there. Now the local Yarnell fire department, Peeples Valley Fire Departmen, and the FS are having to be sued to get any facts from them. They simply believe that the public does not have the right to their information without a court order. BLM will give you some information but at an exorbitant cost–yet these people sit in an office working for you. I hope Trump passes a law that when requested, this information should be published in the media so that all know what their public servants and these billion dollar industries are doing with their tax monies.

        • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

          It has ALWAYS been ‘highly likely’ that the Panebaker ‘Aerial Firefighting Use and Effectiveness’ ( AFUE ) team that was there ‘filming’ and ‘recording’ in Yarnell on Sunday, June 30, 2013 was ALSO recording the ‘Air To Ground’ radio channel traffic in the same way they were recording ALL of the ‘Air-To-Air’ radio channel traffic.

          As far as can be determined… it would have been a REQUIREMENT of ANY ‘AFUE’ team to be doing it.

          Documents related to this AFUE ‘Study’ state that the recording of ALL RADIO TRAFFIC ( including both the A2A and A2G channels ) is essential to the ‘Effectiveness’ part of the actual AFUE acronym.

          Government ‘Contracts’ being offered for ‘Aerial Modules’ to participate in this AFUE study state clearly that the recording of ALL RADIO TRAFFIC ( especially all A2A and A2G radio traffic ) is not ‘OPTIONAL’ for participation in the AFUE Study. It is an absolute REQUIREMENT.

          If the Panebaker AFUE team was NOT making contiguous recordings of BOTH the A2A and the A2G radio channel traffic on June 30, 2013… then it remains to be learned WHY they were NOT… because it seems like that was/is an absolute REQUIREMENT for the AFUE study ‘protocol’ itself.

      • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

        Reply to Charlie post on January 22, 2017 at 9:52 am

        >> Charlie said…
        >> Here is a link to give you a look into how much trouble Fred is
        >> having to get what should be an easy task–especially for a
        >> person of his standing.
        >> ( See link above )

        Back in the previous Chapter 24, I posted an email that was obtained via FOIA that was ‘authored’ ( back in April of 2014 ) by USDA ( United States Department of Agriculture ) OGC ( Office of General Counsel ) lawyer Steve Hattenbach.

        USDA OGC lawyer Steve Hattenbach ( based in the USDA Arizona Regional office ) was the one handling ( at that time ) FOIA requests directed at US Forestry regarding the Yarnell Hill Fire.

        In this email… we see USDA OGC lawyer Hattenbach telling US Forestry employees that he considers one of their ‘options’ is to have him simply REFUSE to respond to a valid ( legal ) FOIA request, if they ( the USFS employees ) don’t feel like responding to it.

        The SUBJECT of this FOIA request that Hattenbach was suggesting he was ‘inclined’ to just simply REFUSE to respond to was, in fact, the “Panebaker Air Study Videos”.

        Here is that original posting…

        On October 1, 2016 at 3:08 pm, WantsToKnowTheTruth posted…

        Speaking of the ‘infamous Steve Hattenbach’, the USDA ‘Office of General Counsel’ ( OGC ) lawyer who was ‘helping’ US Forestry hide information regarding the Yarnell Hill Fire…

        Here is USDA OGC lawyer Steve Hattenbach communicating directly with US Forestry employees asking them if he should just go ahead and flat-out REFUSE to fulfill valid, legal ‘Freedom of Information Act’ ( FOIA ) requests coming from the Arizona ADOSH investigators.

        This was just one in a series of FOIA requests whereby ADOSH was trying to obtain copies of the ‘Panebaker AFUE Air Study’ videos shot in Yarnell that were already known to exist and were already known to have been in the possession of Mike Dudley, Jim Karels, and the rest of the SAIT investigation ‘team’.

        Your tax dollars at work…

        From: Hattenbach, Steve – OGC ( Lawyer – USDA Office of General Counsel )
        Sent: Tuesday, April 22, 2014 10:51 AM
        To: Joyner, Calvin -FS; Agpaoa, Liz -FS
        Cc: Daniels, Janine -FS; VanBruggen, Bill -FS
        Subject: Yarnell Hill

        Cal, Liz, Bill,

        I would like 30 minutes with you to discuss 3 topics related to inquiries about Yarnell Hill.

        First: Attached is the draft response letter back to ADOSH from your employees responsive to the February request. It has been reviewed and approved by each employee. I simply want to run it by you before I send it.

        Second: Attached is a SECOND ( FOIA ) request from ADOSH. When I sent my letters offering written questions from ADOSH for unanswered or remaining questions, I was not anticipating multiple requests. However, I am not sure we want to deny this on that basis alone.

        The referenced video is publicly posted on YouTube by our recent FOIA requestor.

        This video was released as part of the air retardant study videos released by Washington last year. There is one person in the agency named Panebaker who is a Forestry tech in R4. I do not know whether that is the person who the video is ascribed to. I can speculate the purpose of the questions. I asked my WO ( USDA OGC Washingtion Office ) for direction or advice on April 4th and received none. I thought I’d run this by you also.


        1). I refuse.

        2). Someone (me) tries to figure out if we know who took the video and try to answer the questions.

        Third: AZ Attorney General has asked me several questions verbally.

        I am inclined to REFUSE to provide further information however I wanted to run that by you as well.

        Steve Hattenbach ( Lawyer – USDA OGC )

      • Gary Olson says

        OMG! My already sky high opinion of RTS just shot up into outer space. Now there is a MAN who doesn’t **** around and puts his money and time were his mouth is.

        I take back everything bad I have ever said about RTS and I now forgive him for being a shirker and begging for the day shift from Plans on the Murdock Basin Fire so he could have good light in order to change his hotshot crews messy diapers.

        • Gary Olson says

          OK…just one more war story. Hotshot crews always used to be instructed to carry at least two weeks worth of clothing and other supplies in their fire packs. This was almost always more than enough because we usually didn’t spend more than 3 to 5 days on any given fire.

          We normally pulled one really long shift when we first arrived of up to 36 hours with just cat naps on the line during breaks while CHAOS was in control and managing the fire. Then there would be either one or two follow up shifts of 16 hours or so with a goal of working 12 hours on the line.

          There would then typically be one or maybe two shifts of mop up while the fire team satisfied themselves we had caught the fire and then all of the mop up would be turned over to Type 2, 3 or 4 hand crews and engine crews with hose lays from roads or cat lines.

          A day shift went (in theory) from 0600 until 1800 and then the night shift worked (on the line) from 1800 until 0600 hours. Each shift would hold their positions on the line until relieved by the next shift. And of course with travel by army trucks, buses or vans to drop points and then long hikes up the mountain, those times could widely vary with significant delays..

          So anyway…the Murdock Basin Fire was very high up and almost to the tree line and I remember pulling about 14 shifts which as I said, was highly unusual. Of course to be on the line by 0600 counting travel time we would be awoken from our slumber next to the Klieg flood lights and huge diesel generators to in line for chow at 0400 when it was dark and cold and our boots would be frozen or at least very stiff from heavy dew, sweat and or water from the day before if we were working a day shift.

          We must have shifted to a day shift at some point (right before we were snowed in…in July probably) because the overhead asked me if my crew needed a day of R & R to do laundry. So I remember sitting up in the cold, wet, dark morning next to one of my squad bosses. And I said to him while I searched for my frozen Whites with 12 inch tops in the dark, “Hey… overhead wants to know if we need R&R to do laundry? How you doing on changes of underwear?

          Because of course underwear could get pretty crusty filled with bacteria with all of the sweating from hiking and taking messy dumps near the line (which was why Fred had the Payson Hotshots all wear diapers, but he had to change them) bad food etc. so crotch rot and funky butt could become a real problem without any showers or even with showers without a change of underwear. .

          He sat up in the dark…looked at me and replied, “Well, I got one pair on and another pair in my fire pack…so I guess I’m good for another two weeks.”

          So I told the overhead we didn’t need no stinkin’ R&R to do laundry. That’s how we fought fire back in the day, crotch rot and funky butt be damned when wildland firefighters were manly men, doing masculine things, in a macho way (SNL) and the sheep ran scared!

          • Gary Olson says

            Actually Fred is right. I am just an old bullshitter. The truth is…Fred just changed his squad bosses diapers and then they changed the diapers for their respective squads.

            • Robert the Second says


              Thanks for the remarks. However, it’s not quite how I remember the Murdoch Basin Fire.

              You posted: “I take back everything bad I have ever said about RTS and I now forgive him for being a shirker and begging for the day shift from Plans on the Murdock Basin Fire so he could have good light in order to change his hotshot crews messy diapers.”

              Not a shirker and definitely not begging for day shift. I never beg.

              And I think you were confused on and disappointed about lack of good light for your Hot Shot Crew.

              But that’s okay because I know you’re getting older and ore feeble and your memory is failing as evidenced by your “oh one more thing” posts.

              It’s okay

                • Gary Olson says

                  Oh…and one more thing. I’m pretty sure Fred did take the overhead up on their offer to take his crew to town for R&R so they could hand wash their panties and other unmentionables, so…

  15. WantsToKnowTheTruth says

    Reply to Woodsman post on January 21, 2017 at 12:54 pm

    >> Woodsman said…
    >> I am encouraged by Zinke as head of the Interior dept.
    >> There is no way that someone of his credentials will not
    >> see the problems in the current national fire policy. It’s
    >> blatantly obvious there are real problems with the way
    >> we manage wildfire on public lands currently.

    I wonder how he feels about ‘access to information’… because the Trump team just TODAY made that a ‘big issue’ for the Department of the Interior ( generally ) and the National Park Service ( specifically ).

    Montana Rep. Ryan Zinke, Trump’s nominee to lead the Deaprtment of the Interior ( DOI… which, of course, includes the National Park Service ( NPS ), BIA and Bureau of Land Management ( BLM )…

    …is mentioned in the following article about how the new administration immediately ‘shut down’ the National Park Service’s Twitter accounts ( ALL of them… INCLUDING the ones that report EMERGENCIES to the PUBLIC ) just because a photo was posted that compared the crowds at Obama’s inaUguration to the crowds at Trump’s inaUguration yesterday.

    Article Title: Trump Administration tells National Park Service to halt tweets
    Published: 8:05 PM ET, Sat January 21, 2017

    Zinke does not appear to have been ‘involved’ in this ‘shutdown’ of the Twitter accounts just because Trump didn’t like what was showing up there, but he is mentioned in the article.

    From the article…
    After the National Park Service retweeted messages that negatively compared the crowd sizes at Barack Obama’s 2009 inauguration to Donald Trump’s inauguration Friday, representatives from the new administration asked the Interior Department’s digital team to temporarily STOP using Twitter — a decision the agency now claims was out of a concern the account was HACKED.

    So that’s the new ‘public media policy’ for this administration?

    If ANYTHING shows up that THEY simply don’t like… it is immediately going to be considered possible ‘hacking’ ( cough, cough )… and that alone will be their ‘justification’ for shutting things down and/or removing the posts they don’t like?

    Well, isn’t that special.

    What’s also ‘special’ is that their obsession with controlling Trump’s image also shut down some very IMPORTANT accounts…

    That order ( from the new administration ) to STOP tweeting impacted ALL accounts under the Interior Department’s purview, including individual National Park accounts that are, at times, used to communicate EMERGENCY MESSAGES to visitors.

    There were thousands upon thousands of visitors in Washington this weekend.

    As it turns out… MOST of them were there for the RALLIES today and not even for the inauguration itself, but BOTH ‘groups’ were actually ‘overlapping’ and there in/around the ‘National Parks’ at the same time, compounding the situation.

    What if some ’emergency’ had actually developed today in or around the MALL or the National Park(s) there in DC?

    Now we learn that at some point… and just because the new administration didn’t like a ‘Tweet’… there’s a chance that people might NOT have had access to ( perhaps ) important ’emergency’ information in the normal way if/when they needed it.


    Once the Trump media control team ( Steve Bannon, Kellyanne Conway, etc. ) realized they had shut down ALL of the DOI / NPS Twitter accounts… including the ones that report EMERGENCIES… they issued an ‘update’ to their ‘social media guidance’ directives and allowed their Twitter accounts to become active again… but NOT for anything to do with any ‘policy’.

    They still want a ‘Social Media gag order’ in place on anything related to ‘Policy Matters’ until Zinke is confirmed.

    Again… from the article…
    “Now that social media guidance has been clarified, the Department and its bureaus should resume Twitter engagement as normal this weekend, with the exception of social media posts on the Secretary’s policy priorities, which will be outlined upon confirmation.”

    Trump’s nominee to lead the department, Montana Rep. Ryan Zinke, is expected to be confirmed in the near future.

    So the big question now is…

    If the ‘new administration’ is obviously going to be this paranoid about ‘bad news’ across the board… and this ‘trigger happy’ about shutting down existing public information accounts at Government Agencies ( like the National Park Service ) the moment they see something they simply don’t like…

    …what are the chances we will ever see the actual ‘investigation report’ that is now ‘in the works’ at the National Park Service with regards to the tragic ( and fatal ) ‘Chimney Tops 2’ fire?…

    >> On January 19, 2017 at 5:52 pm, calvin said…
    >> Investigation of the Chimny tops 2 fire coming.

    • Woodsman says

      Why were federal employees of the federal agency known as the NPS ‘tweeting’ this type of content using the federal accounts? If that’s info deemed relevant or interesting & someone wants to share it, why not use your personal account to do so? A ‘comparison photo’ sounds like it would be possible to be interpreted as controversial so why take the chance of causing a problem for yourself? Bone headed move. Someone just lost their chances for the brainiac of the year award. I hope the person(s) who did that are already ‘retired in place’ or they just put their livelihood ie: pension at risk…and for what? Folks should take a deep breath! Haha


    • says

      Just watched a video of the Pagami Fire. It was mentioned there that the rangers did not have radio reception once they were under the shelters. Made me wonder if Granite Mountain could communicate by radio once they were under their shelters?

      • Robert the Second says

        Diane, probably not, but it would not have mattered. It would have done them no good at all by then. They failed to use them to communicate with AA and/or OPS to advise them what they were intending to do BEFORE they left their perfectly good Safety Zone.

        And the GMHS knew or should have known radios don’t usually work well inside fire shelters from their basic training.

        • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

          Reply to Robert the Second ( RTS ) post on
          January 22, 2017 at 1:54 pm

          >> RTS said…
          >> And the GMHS knew or should have known radios don’t usually
          >> work well inside fire shelters from their basic training.

          Does the ‘basic training’ you speak of even ‘go there’?

          Because it certainly seems like Type 1 Hotshot Crew Superintendent Eric Marsh himself was totally unaware that his low-power handheld radio would probably not work well ( or at all ) once he covered himself with his metal-foil-lined fire shelter. ( sic: A Faraday Cage ).

          One of the last statements of his life ( to John Burfiend in ‘Bravo 33’ ) was…

          “We’ll give you a call when we are UNDER the sh– shelters”.

            • Robert the Second says


              Here is the 2014 Beaver Fire Entrapment Facilitated Learning Analysis (FLA) that also address weakened radio transmissions.


              On page 26, “G. Using a Radio Inside Your Fire Shelter DIVS C had the presence of mind to slide the radio antenna out of the shelter for better radio transmissions.”

              “Firefighters should review the 2003 MTDC Fire Tech Tip – Fire
              Shelters Weaken Radio Transmissions from Hand-Held Radios:

              “In addition, on all incidents, all command channels should be inserted at the beginning of the radio com plan. This enabled DIVS C to successfully operate his radio in the darkness of the fire shelter.”

              • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

                Thank you for the links… but what I am still wondering is whether or not there is ANY mention of this chance that handhelds won’t work when ‘in shelter’ in the actual ‘basic training’ you already referred to.

                What you posted above are links to FLAs and obscure online ‘Equip Tips’.

                That’s fine… at least the ‘problem’ is ‘acknowledged’.

                But when you say ‘basic training’… I am assuming CLASSES.

                In other words… in whatever CLASS you have to take that teaches you how to deploy a fire shelter… is it absolutely PART of that CURRICULUM to ALSO mention the potential ‘radio malfunctions’ when fully ‘in shelter’?

                Or are WFFS being allowed to ‘walk away’ from these ‘basic CLASSES’ thinking their handheld radios can/should work just fine even when fully ‘in shelter’?

                • Robert the Second says


                  You posted: “…. whether or not there is ANY mention of this chance that handhelds won’t work when ‘in shelter’ in the actual ‘basic training’ you already referred to.”

                  After researching the subject, I would have to agree that the hand-held radio issue is NOT addressed in any of the basic WFF training.

                  It was NOT discussed in the NWCG S-130 Basic WFF training course Instructor Guide.

                  Additionally, the “Large New Generation Fire Shelter Now Available” Fire Tech Tip (June 2005) by MTDC Project Leader Tony Petrillii (1994 South Canyon Fire survivor) makes NO mention of radio transmission troubles from within a deployed fire shelter.


                  Here is the general NIFC link regarding Fire Shelters.


                  Unfortunately, the NFES 2710 2003 “New Generation Fire Shelter Booklet PMS 411” link was not functioning

                  FLAs and ‘Equip Tips’ should be part of ones training and annual refreshers.

                  So, hopefully, this is being taught in at least the basic WFF courses.

                  • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

                    Reply to Robert the Second post on
                    January 23, 2017 at 4:03 pm

                    >> RTS said…
                    >> After researching the subject, I would have
                    >> to agree that the hand-held radio issue is
                    >> NOT addressed in any of the basic WFF
                    >> training.

                    I want to say ‘Thank you for confirming that’… but since that is really, really BAD NEWS… I’m not going to.

                    ‘Copy that’ will have to do ( for now ).

        • Woodsman says


          I read the complaint. Serious respect and debt of gratitude from me to you for your courage and perseverance in the matter. Possessing the brass ones you do to stay on task as you are may end up saving countless wff lives in the future. Thank you.


          • Robert the Second says


            Thanks for the compliments My Friend. It always is, was, and will be, first about The Truth, and then about WFF safety and saving lives and Lessons Learned.

            • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

              Reply to Robert the Second ( RTS ) post on
              January 22, 2017 at 2:43 pm

              >> RTS said…
              >> It always is, was, and will be, first about The Truth, and then
              >> about WFF safety and saving lives and Lessons Learned.

              Could not possibly AGREE more.

      • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

        Diane… the actual METAL FOIL layer/lining of a standard Wildland Fire Shelter will, in and of itself, tend to BLOCK RADIO TRANSMISSIONS ( both transmits and receives ) once you are underneath it.

        This is called the ‘Faraday Effect’ ( discovered by Michael Faraday in 1845 ) and it is well documented…

        Getting ‘underneath’ or ‘inside’ a layer of metal foil creates what is known as a ‘Faraday CAGE’, which blocks radio transmissions…

        The reception or transmission of radio waves to or from an antenna within a Faraday cage is heavily attenuated or blocked by the cage.

        Apparently… firefighters are not TAUGHT about this ‘Faraday effect’ in any of the training classes regarding the use of standard foil-based fire shelters.

        It is even apparent that Granite Mountain Superintendent Eric Marsh himself was unaware of this ‘effect’ since one of the last statements of his life ( captured in one of Aaron Hulburd’s video recordings ) was something he said over the radio to Air Attack ‘Bravo 33’ ( Thomas French, John Burfiend and Clint Cross )…

        “We’ll give you a call when we are UNDER the sh– shelters”.

        It still remains highly likely that the various ‘pops’ and ‘clicks’ heard in the same video shortly after that might actually have been Eric Marsh ( or other Hotshots out at the deployment site ) still trying to ‘communicate’ via radio with ‘Bravo 33’… but the fact that they were now UNDER that layer of METAL FOIL was preventing them from actually accomplishing that.

        There was absolutely no mention of any of this ( or even the obvious possibility of it ) in the official ‘Special Accident Investigation Report’… and so there was no chance of any of this even becoming a “Lesson to Learn” following the Yarnell tragedy.

        Firefighters would seem to remain in blissful ignorance… thinking that they will be able to fully use their radios even after they get UNDER these ‘shelters’.

          • Robert the Second says


            GTS and delve into how stressful, near death situations radically affects our thinking and information processing.

            Our brains basically shut down and cannot process any new information. We go into Tunnel vision mode and rely on those actions most familiar to us.

            Check into Daniel Goleman’s many research papers.

            • Robert the Second says


              Below are two Situational Awareness Matters website articles, somewhat similar. They both include the same short video clip on SA.

              Here is their subtitle: “Helping individuals and teams understand human factors, reduce the impact of situational awareness barriers, and improve decision making under stress.”



              • Robert the Second says

                Hopefully, you will read the above Situational Awareness article.

                This was a most fascinating and remarkable finding.

                “Researchers at Johns Hopkins University ran a series of audible and visual tests on human subjects, measuring the loss of acuity while engaging them in activities designed to narrow attention.

                “The results were a shocker.

                “The experiment was designed to [examine] tunnel vision – and it did. But a completely unexpected event occurred. While the vision was being tunneled, the performance of the audible control center decreased. That was not a typo. TUNNELED VISION LED TO DIMINISHED HEARING. Turns out, focusing on something intently led the audio cortex to turn down the volume.
                When the researchers performed an experiment to tunnel the hearing, the performance of the visual control center decreased. Again, no typo. TUNNELED HEARING LED TO DIMINISHED VISION. (EMPHASIS ADDED)

                (EMPHASIS ADDED)

                Given these findings, it is likely that this MAY have had some influence on WHY the GMHS did what they did when they left their perfectly good Safety Zone and walked down into a death trap.

                I am searching for the original study.

              • says


                Thank you-these articles are interesting and I can see how they can be relevant to the stress that the hotshots were under that day

                I hope that this is part of the training for wildland firefighters.

  16. Gary Olson says

    Just a quick note to tell you that after millions of years (or just a few IF you are a fundamentalist Christian) the Oregon Dunes are still here and wet. But I want to take a moment to say, “May God Bless the United States of America, our new President Elect and the peaceful transfer of power without tanks tearing up the streets.” Because if he succeeds…our great nation succeeds. Amen.

    • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

      A lot of history is about to made at NOON tomorrow.

      The moment Trump takes the ‘oath of office’… he will become all of the following…

      1. The person with the LOWEST approval rating ( by far ) of anyone to ever take the oath of office as long as such records have been kept.

      2. The FIRST person to ever take the oath of office with no prior experience whatsoever in ‘public service’.

      3. The FIRST person to ever take the oath of office who will be in direct violation of Article 1, section 9, clause 8 of the United States Constitution ( an impeachable offense ) the moment he finishes taking the oath itself.

      4. The OLDEST person to ever take the oath of office. Tomorrow, Donald Trump will be more than 70 and 1/2 years old, with the actual numbers being ‘all sevens’… 70 years, 7 months, 7 days old. At least it’s not ‘all snake-eyes’. He is reported to be averse to any kind of exercise and his favorite foods are rumored to be a toss-up between hamburgers and/or pork chops.

      5. The FIRST person to ever take the oath of office who has had MULTIPLE ( more than one ) failed marriages.

      6. The FIRST person to have ever LOST the popular vote in a presidential election by the largest margin in history ( he lost by at least 2.09 percent ) and still be able to actually take the oath of office.

      7. The ONLY person to ever take the oath of office who is ALREADY being actively ‘investigated’ by BOTH the FBI and the Senate Intelligence Committee for possible illegal ‘contacts’ and/or ‘collusions’ with foreign governments ( and/or ‘agents’ thereof ) during the course of his presidential campaign, and/or possible direct violations of the ‘Logan Act’.

      And that’s just the ‘short’ list.

        • Woodsman says

          So…we’re going to start adhering to the Constitution now? When did this happen? This is seriously the absolute best fucking news I’ve heard in the 21st century… maybe my entire life!!! I gotta run & tell my friends. Thank you, Jesus. I had just about given up all hope in the restoration of the rule of law in this country! Yessssssss!!!


        • Charlie says

          Here we have RTS–Fred Shoeffler–26 years a wild land fire fighter and superintendent being refused by the FS the FOIA requests he made. if this is not the ultimate proof of hiding information then what is? These FS people should be quickly producing the information Fred wants. Fred with his credentials deserves to have the information so he can give his valuable input and opinions on what might be done to improve wild land fire fighting techniques. It looks to be a cover up to the nth degree and at all costs in order to hide the truth.

          I do hope that Trump has installed a new man to run the Dept. of Agriculture. Someone who is honest and will quickly order the information to Wild Land elite fire fighters and public people interested in what is taking place with their tax dollars. Tax Dollars are secondary to Fred–he wants to know all about why and how those men were sent into a bad spot so that their lives were taken. Good God of Heaven and Hell, what kind of asshole would withhold information from men like RTS, Gary Olson, Bob Powers, Woodsman, Dr. Ted Putnam and other wild land fire fighters trying to improve conditions in wild land fire fighting–especially making it safer so that such killing incidents as the 19 deceased GMHS does not happen again.

          When every effort is made to withhold this information we see that the proof of a cover up is made and it is mandatory that whoever withholds this information should be immediately removed from office. These people are public servants, and may the media expose their wrong doing.

      • Woodsman says


        Here’s some thoughts on a very important matter that you have been talking about several times since the most recent election. The author is Karl Denniger of market The truth is Trump won in a landslide. This will take several posts.

        “That’ll be enough”

        “Let me make a few observations.

        First, eight years ago, and again four years ago, America elected a President. Fully half, give or take a couple of percent, disagreed with the outcome.

        There were exactly zero riots, fires, “mass protests” and similar following that outcome despite the fact that half the population vehemently disagreed with it.

        This time around, not so much.

        Now I want you think very carefully about the following.

        Most of the land mass of this nation is owned and resided upon by people who are in “red” (that is, the winner this time) areas of the country. With the exception of certain urban centers and right along the Mexican/Texas border there are very few “solid” blue areas.

        Those urban centers consume roughly 90% of the energy and food in this country yet they comprise 5-10% of the land mass. The “red” areas produce 95% of the food and energy this nation consumes and occupies 90-95% of the land mass.

        Do you really think that doing something like eliminating the last pieces of the structure our founding fathers put in place to prevent tyranny of the majority from being able to take hold is a good idea?

        A little history lesson: Prior to the 17th Amendment ratified in 1913 it was impossible for the Federal Government to shove any program down the throats of the 50 states. That’s because the state legislatures had effective control of the Senate and could recall their Senators.

        The House was elected by the people, the Senate was elected by The State Legislatures (and could be recalled by same) and The President was elected by the Electors, which were voted for in the popular vote.

        The latter provides a modest but real increase in the representation of “flyover” states; that is, those with lower population counts. In other words it is a check and balance in the ultimate tyranny of democracy.

        Yes, I said democracy is ultimately tyrannical — because it is.

        America is not a Democracy. It is a Constitutional Republic. This is very important; in a democracy 50%+1 can render the 50%-1 slaves by mere vote. Those who are in the minority in a democracy have no rights at all. Democracy is best represented by two wolves and a sheep voting on what’s for dinner.

        We are all minorities in some form or fashion. If you’re gay, black, yellow, male, female, whatever — all it takes is some other set of groups to get together and decide to oppress you, and in a democracy you’re ****ed.”

        • Woodsman says

          “America’s founding fathers put in place two systems to prevent this. The first was the bicameral legislature; a House elected by the people at large and a Senate elected by the State Legislators. This structure guaranteed that a landmass that amassed 50%+1 of the population (not even in the same state or states!) could not band together and shove down the throat of the States any policy measure because you needed the concurrence of more than half the state legislatures, where each were delegated but two votes to their Senators who were accountable to said legislature, to pass anything at all.

          This evaporated with the passage of the 17th Amendment. Now you only needed 50%+1 of the people in a given state to pass anything you wanted and they could all live in a tiny percentage of the land mass — such as is the case with Illinois where more than half the population lives in the immediate area of Chicago.

          What came right after that? Prohibition, shoved down the throat of the States, less than 7 years later!

          What also came after it was an unbridled expansion of the Federal Government into state affairs. Indeed, virtually everything became a “legitimate” federal matter. Why? Because it was impossible for the States to prevent it.

          Do you think the founders were wrong to do what they did, and the 17th Amendment corrected that?

          If you believe so then please consider this.

          Ever drive through small town America?

          Hell, how about “not-so-small-town” America?

          Many of these towns look like something out of a WWI or WWII European war movie. There was one factory or maybe two, but now it sits empty, weeds growing out of the parking lot as high as your head, all the windows are broken out and the roof has caved in. Over on the outskirts there’s a Walmart that pays $9/hour, but only offers 20 hours/week. The factory paid $30/hour, full-time, plus benefits and food, power, medicine and beer cost half of what it does now. 90% of what formerly were little diners and shops in the “center” of the town, which might have one actual traffic light, are gone — boarded up and often literally falling apart. There might be one bank left, a branch of a big national chain, and maybe an antique store. Maybe. All the factory jobs left for China and Mexico and everything else died when the middle-class incomes to support them disappeared. We did that as a nation with our “progressive” and “global” agenda driven by the 50%+1 that live in the closest big city 200 miles away.

          The locals who used to work in the fields within 10 or 20 miles from that town are all unemployed too. Why? Because the illegal Mexicans came and we refused to throw them out. They work for a few bucks a day in cash, no taxes, no unemployment, no nothing. No American can live on that; the embedded cost of just trying to stay alive would leave you with zero. But the Mexicans work hard and then sleep 10 to a single-room apartment, which incidentally is a total ****hole as you’d expect given that density of occupation. They don’t care; it’s better than what they had in Mexico, you see, and they can Western Union home some of the money. This is the face of “immigration”, mostly illegal, that really exists in this country. They brought their third-world ****hole here and while it’s a little bit better than what they had in the process of doing it they dragged us into the gutter with them.

          The people who lived in that town did and most who are still there do go to church every weekend, and some go again during the week, usually on Wednesday. There’s usually one, sometimes two churches. Every one of them has the word “God” or “Christ” in the name on the front. They mean it when it comes to their faith and in addition that’s where all the local people shake hands, exchange chit-chat on the last week and, for younger people, it’s where they meet one another. You know, girls and boys. Yeah. Faith is real there, you see, and it’s Christian. But from your point of view that’s deplorable and that “those people” don’t like the idea of making a wedding cake for a gay marriage is deserving of a federal lawsuit and loss of the bakery (which is, as a result, now closed — putting yet more people out of work.) The people who live in these towns don’t see your point of view as a civil rights matter but rather as attacking God.

          What was left after the factory was displaced isn’t enough to run a “service economy”, which is why it never showed up there and the old business buildings are all boarded up. Nobody can afford $8 lattes on a $9/hour wage for 20 hours a week and nobody would want them if they could. There’s probably a McDonalds on the outskirts, and a couple of self-serve gas stations with a convenience store. It sells cheap beer and lots of it to the locals who have nothing to do but drink and then go to church and pray for forgiveness for last night’s 12 pack. None of the jobs at any of these places, except maybe the store manager, makes more than $9/hour and Obamacare has forced all the regular workers down to 20 hours a week on top of it. Try living on $180/week gross sometime — before FICA and Medicare is taken out, never mind gas for the car and the rapidly-escalating car insurance bill — and you might understand. Yes, I know the car is 15 years old and runs like crap. What do you expect on under $1,000/month of income?”

        • Woodsman says

          “This is what 40 years of sending jobs overseas with “trade deals” did. It’s what Amazon did. It’s what Walmart and its Chinese supply line did. It’s what “progressive America” did, and then to add insult to injury the teachers in the public schools tell all the kids that Mommy and Daddy are bad people and hate both the planet and their own kids because they don’t drive a $30,000 Prius or a $60,000 Tesla.

          This is everywhere in rural America. Get in your car and out of your comfort zone some time and you’ll see it. It’s not far from wherever you are. I’ve driven through dozens of these formerly-alive places in the last six months — every one of them dead today, but full of real people. I never met one such person that was a racist, xenophobic *******, but they’re not very happy, and the people they’re unhappy with are those very same folks you wanted to keep in office in Washington DC.

          If you think the destruction of small town America is confined to farms you forget the other half — energy. Would you like your lights to work? Many of those small towns are dead because of the insanity of our energy policy — or lack thereof, tied to left-wing whackjob nonsense.

          Now you want to add insult to injury when they show up to vote, exactly as civics tells them we have a right to do, and a large number of you in the cities did not show up.

          They bought into the message of bringing American jobs back to America and ejecting those who have no right to be here. You call them xenophobic, racist and small-minded — they call it a shot at decent employment for the first time in 30 years.

          They believe in the Henry Ford model of American business, and they’re not wrong to do so. Make the product here, pay the people well enough to be able to afford it, and you’ll do just fine.

          They win the election, in short, and you lose.

          Then you decide to be a sore loser and loot, burn, beat people, issue threats, cry, whine on social media and try to obstruct everything by any means possible — legal or not. You bus people in to “protest” and riot, you “petition”, you raise hell in short — oh, and all this after you implored the other side to “respect the outcome of the election” and lambasted them for suggesting they might want to merely count the ballots twice!

          Note again, as I pointed out above, that eight years ago, and four years ago, these very same people were on the losing end of your stick exactly as they had been for the previous three decades yet they did none of the above. They understand duplicity and your double-standard quite well, seeing as they did the honorable thing and respected the outcome twice in a row despite getting screwed sequentially both times. The only thing your brand of government offered them in the end was Medicaid or worthless “health insurance” through the exchange; the former has no doctors that accept it within 20 miles and the latter has a $5,000 deductible before it pays anything, which is utterly laughable when you consider these folks have a gross wage of under $1,000 a month.

          Now the question: Are you prepared for the possibility they might decide en-masse that they’re done with this crap — and with you? That they’re not going to take it any more?

          What if the people who live in the “red” areas, that is, those who produce the food and energy that are consumed to the 90th percentile in the “blue” areas, decide they’re not going to do that for the blue areas any more? What if their middle finger goes up, in short?

          Remember, we allegedly do not permit slavery in this country any more — which means that which someone owns they have the right to sell – or not sell. They have the right to produce – or, more to the point, not produce.

          What if the people who peacefully conceded the result of two elections over the last eight years despite vehemently opposing the outcome decide that if the “blue” folks can riot, loot, beat people who vote the “wrong way” and similar they will not accept any further election result that doesn’t go their way, and instead of rioting or burning things they will simply shut off the flow of food and energy to said “blue” areas? After all, you don’t value them at all — you consider them subhuman, racist, xenophobic, deplorable and irredeemable — all at once.

          I’ll tell you what happens if they take that decision: Every major city in the country would go feral within hours.”

          • Woodsman says

            “Within days those cities would not be blue, they’d be blackened and reduced to ash as those very same “protesters” you like so much loot, burn and shoot at each other trying to get the last scraps of food and fuel remaining. They would then probably try to come out of the cities and take by force what had been denied them, only to run into a major problem – the “red guys” have more guns, they know the land because they live there, and more importantly they actually hit what they aim at, having had plenty of practice feeding their families with deer, wild boar and similar. Mr. Gang Banger against Mr. Deer Hunter isn’t a very fair fight, when you get down to it.

            Oh by the way there’s a phrase for what this would mean, if you haven’t figured it out by now: Civil War.

            Is that what you want?

            It’s where your actions are headed, if you keep doing what you’re doing — and nobody knows exactly where the tipping point is.

            Better think long and hard, those of you in the “blue” places who are running this crap. You do not have a snowball’s chance in Hell of being able to grow enough in the way of crops on the landmass you control to feed a tenth of your population and every squirrel in your trees would be shot dead and eaten within an hour after this began. Silent spring indeed. Never mind the fact that most of you “wonderful snowflakes” couldn’t shoot, skin, butcher and cook a deer — or even a squirrel — if you had to. Never mind that a good 80% of you couldn’t manage to run one mile if you were being chased by someone interested in eating you.

            The day that cellophane-wrapped chicken stops showing up in the grocery store is literally the day 90% of Blue America starves.

            Nobody in their right mind wants such an outcome. But where do you think this all goes if you keep it up, eh?

            Every bit of it has been enabled by the 17th Amendment and tyranny of the majority — a tyranny you wish to increase by doing things such as abolishing the Electoral College.

            There’s a very good reason our founding fathers designed a Constitutional Republic instead of a Democracy. They understand the problem with democracy: It doesn’t work. Democracy always ends up leading to riots and civil war, because exactly what the blue folks are doing now escalates until everyone starts shooting everyone.

            A Constitutional Republic avoids this outcome because even a very large majority cannot infringe the rights of everyone else — even when the majority lives in big, concentrated places like cities.

            That was the magic sauce of the original design in our legislature and Presidency. It’s why we have an Electoral College — to provide a bit of “overweighting” to those places that are utterly crucial to the cohesiveness and survival of the nation as a functional republic — that is, a bit more balance against tyranny of the majority of 50%+1.

            We got rid of the biggest check and balance with the 17th Amendment and I have, for decades, maintained that whenever America finally is declared dead and done, and the book is closed, that will be written in as the reason our nation’s political system failed. It’s the only Amendment we cannot reasonably repeal, because to do so would require the sitting Senate to vote itself out of a job. I’m sure you can figure out how likely that is.

            But we can avoid doing more violence to our Constitution — and we had better, or the outcome, given the annals of history available to anyone who cares to look, is quite certain. If you want to see how this turns out should you keep pressing the issue go have a look at the map of how many states Trump won .vs. Clinton, or how the county-by-county map looks. You’ll see a lot more red of various shades than you will blue.

            The bottom line? Go ahead and be a sore loser. Go ahead and whine. Go ahead and try to change what our representative process led to. Go ahead and decide to loot, burn and beat. Refuse to accept the result of the election, if you insist. Hell, go ahead and try to threaten or even bribe the electors! Make sure you tear down the last little bit of foundation and structure inherent in the design of the legislature and executive of the United States. Who needs it; it’s all in the name of being “progressive”, right — even if when counted by landmass, counties or states the election was a landslide for Trump.

            Just don’t be surprised, if you keep it up, that at some point, given that you’re utterly reliant on those you’re abusing for the basics of life — the loaf of bread, the gallon of gasoline, the electricity that powers your lights — they decide they’ve had enough. That day your supply of cellophane-wrapped meat and plastic bag full of bread disappears like a fart in the wind. There comes a time when those who you’ve put the boot to for so long, and then try to deny the ability to change things peacefully through the representative process our founding fathers gave us, decide that despite their religious beliefs and good manners they’re not going to service you on their knees any more.

            Don’t be dumb enough to think you can keep doing what you’ve been doing forever because you can’t and if you go too far there will be no warning, no second chances and no saying you’re sorry. It’ll just happen starting with one final stupid act — and then we all lose.”


            • Charlie says

              Woodsman has it right–and listening to Trump I must say he has said some wonderful things. I did not vote either way since I did not see either as viable candidates. However, Trump appeared to be the one with a significant sense above the liar Hillary.

              But when do you know that a politician is lying? The answer is when they open their mouth. So will Trump actually do what he says? We certainly hope so since most of us are saddened to see our jobs moved out of the country–but big business and 99% of billionaire business men are not loyal to any country. Their loyalty is to the dollar and the profit margin.

              The loyalty to the constitution and this country is with the Rancher, Farmer, Laborer, and Individuals generally in the middle. Of course this being a Christian based country for the most part it includes most of those people but not exclusive to them. Remember Thomas Paine was an atheist or agnostic, yet great part of developing this Republic. Our great President George Washinton and about 50 others of the signers of the Constitution are masons–ascribe to that society. Donald Trump has a masonic ring on a statue of his–so if so then he would subscribe to the New World Order–and is that on line thing that should be considered. Those that want the New World Order thing are not exactly attached to the American idea as Trump expresses it.

              Here is a list of some of the Masons–Joseph Smith, George Bush, Bill Clinton, Newt Gingrich, Colin Powell, Storm Thurmond, Bob Dole, Jack Kemp, Barry Goldwater, Jesse Helms, Andrew Jackson, Lyndon Johnson, Harry Truman, Franklin Roosevelt, James Garfield, William Taft, Ronald Reagan, Al Gore, James Monroe, James Polk, James Buchannan, James Garfield, William McKinley, Warren Harding, Gerald Ford. and this is just a small list of your leaders. These people that rule the world include people in the Illuminati, Bilderberg Group, Skull and Bones, Free Masons Is their idea of brotherhood bad? Seems the majority are much like the Christian–good fellows that never know what the fuck the boys in charge are doing and how their particular God idea is going to rule the layman. Most laymen have not the time or interest to involve in matters the elite lay out for them.

              These people of the elite generally consider themselves as citizens of the world, and their allegiance to solely America in my opinion is quite suspect. Most of them are just as happy living in a French Mansion as they are in a Trump Tower. However they do like to do obeisance to a statue of Abe Lincoln, even though he was not a Freemason–it looks good to the population.

              So is Donald Trump simply another person with rhetoric? Watching Bill and Hillary’s facial reactions at the Inauguration and include George Bush with an ugly expression when Trump said the end of the politicians getting fatter at the expense of selling this country out (I am paraphrasing but the expressions insinuations of Trump were real) made me think the man is at least ruffling feathers.

              We shall see, but my own opinion is that Trump is in the same class as all the other politicos.

              Woodsman is correct in what he says about the Blues and Reds. If Woodsman would run for President, he would get my vote because he is true to form and knows this should be a Republic, not a Demon Cracy. You see there is rarely an honest politician–maybe Honest Abe was the last of a dying breed.

              I do feel that if a civil war ensues–and that is likely if the social welfare state comes apart–it may be orchestrated or indeed it may come because the fellows feeding the masses do go on strike as Woodsman believes may happen.

              But then those in power already have plans for that type scenario. You can get satellite images of the barbed wire encampments and those are not for illegals. Fema has plans for all the problems this country is destined for–and Joy’s idea that the round a bouts are part of it makes sense. Amazing how little the American people know about the system and how much trust they put into their elected officials.

              The thing about change and if Trump is for real (I do not believe his rhetoric), then he is facing some mighty heavy forces willing to block his efforts.

              It makes me thing about how many promises Bush, Obama, Reagan, and so on made to get in office, yet they were never fulfilled. A good research on that proves the politician tells the public ears what he believes they want to hear and what will get him or her in office–then after a time we see they become a part of the system as now established. The fire fighting system is along those lines as we can see. And maybe there is no other way it can go until it breaks.

              For sure, America was strong when the people had industry. But now we are a service economy. Your job is flipping burgers or stocking shelves of Chinese junk at Wal Mart, or at a bank as a teller and the like. Very little left here to do unless you know how to roll tacos. Not many of the new generation are willing to work as a farm laborer and that has been handed to the illegal for the most part. Farmers and Ranchers are not willing to pay wages the American would want and they say if they did they would not make a profit. So there is much to consider–yet if we let the influx of illegals go unchecked this country would indeed become a third world country–something that it may be destined to in time despite all the good efforts of people like Woodsman.

              Which President had a committee of scientists determine what the planet could support population wise without coming to a disastrous end? I believe on Iron Mountain these elite scientists decided that half a billion was about the limit–we are about 6 billion too populated according to that finding.

              They might be right since the 6 billion people are doing a great job polluting the planet and with all the plastic, retardants, nuclear plants, Isis Virus, just to name a few, we might just soon have a planet that can only support that many–It is not doing too well with the 6 and a half billion right now.

              If Jesus raptures only 144 thousand then he has it figured at a lower figure. Well drop me another bottle of Crown Royal Jesus. I might need it and so may some others if Trump is lying though his teeth.

              • Woodsman says

                Thanks, Charlie. I trust no one until they have proven trustworthy. I’m also willing to give just about anyone a chance though. Trump is something a little different than what we have had in the past so time will tell on his dedication to his spoken plans. It’s an uphill battle for certain.

                Those who talk solely of the popular vote numbers & imply that the election results thereby are invalid in some way (not even taking into account the evidence of substantial vote fraud,) are really advocating for TYRANNY OF THE MAJORITY. A goal of mine was to illustrate just exactly what that tyranny entails.

                A major portion of city people simply have no clue how the rest of the country lives. The are seen as backwoods, redneck hicks (woodsmen?) but the regular folks are mostly producers of things of tangible benefit to society…wood fiber, minerals, the roads you drive, energy produced so we can run our electric-powered luxuries. “Common” folk are the heart and soul of the country & without their hard work the country would grind to a halt. Instead of looking down their noses at them & deciding what’s best for them by telling them how to live their lives in all ways, a simple “thank you for what you do” every once in a while would be a much better way to go. I’m talking about the lineman in the ice-storm at 2:00am freezing his tail off repairing the electric feed to your home so your thermostat makes heat blow out of your floor registers again; the septic/sewer/plumber man so the shit disappears down the pipe instead of over-flowing onto the floor of your bathroom; the logger because the last time I checked most houses & furniture were made from wood (not to mention TOILET PAPER!), etc, ect. etc.

                Some have lost touch with the proud regular people and decided they know better on how they should live their lives. I have not…hell, I’m one of them being the lowly forest technician…& I can relate for several reasons:

                1. crap flows downhill & I’m the one the has to do the actual work since the new crop of managers didn’t get the memo that forestry is hard work that takes place in the woods not behind a desk.

                2. I’m the son of a career sea-going officer in the US military who was raised in a family of automobile factory workers…and…was the first in his family to earn a college degree. Through him I was able to earn my own college education but, I’ve always been one to enjoy the results of hard work because at the end of the day I enjoy seeing accomplishments. I can relate to regular people because I’m not exactly ‘elite’ material myself (thank God!)

                From a young age I’ve always been a free thinker. It’s the way I’m wired. I can spot a scam from 80 chains away.

                Will the new administration reverse the utter destruction to middle-class America that’s gone on for so long? Time will tell. I do know that people have been programmed against taking responsibility for themselves & their families which make people reliant on Uncle Sugar government to take care of them. The problem is that the others who desire to take care of themselves have to pay for it. This has caused the costs of everything from houses to cars to food to health care etc to skyrocket! I would love a new pickup but it costs double what the first home I lived in! not to mention the taxes & insurance I’d had to pay each year for the priviledge of owning it, would have paid rent in my first place for 10 months!

                As you can see, I’m a regular guy doing honest work trying to raise a family…so I get a little irritated when others want to tell me how to live my life and that tyranny of the majority is attempted to be sold as a great idea for everyone!

                There’s a reason that one of Gary’s greatest times of his life was as a hotshot…a groundpounder of epic proportions! The camaraderie of men working together like clockwork to meet a common goal with grit, determination, and honest hard work . Celebrating life with a beer around the bonfire in the off-season amongst treasured friends you serve with to make the world a better place by protecting our nations forests & fields from the ravages of wildfire. Sounds really good to me! Will we get back to basics as a nation like this again? Well…YES, WE CAN!!! It’s going to take honesty, hard work, believing in yourself, self reliance & personal responsibility. There is no free lunch.

                God bless America!


                • Gary Olson says

                  The Woodsman said, “There’s a reason that one of Gary’s greatest times of his life was as a hotshot…a groundpounder of epic proportions!”


                  And I say, That’s very true.

                  Wait a minute…is that a double entendre (I had to look it up to spell it)? “A a groundpounder of EPIC proportions?”

                  Are you actually saying I would have been a better hotshot (and everything else) IF I hadn’t been so darn FAT?

                  And as far as President Donald J. Trump goes (just as long as he doesn’t bring on a nuclear winter because I am not as tough as Joy is)…I have decided to give him the benefit of the doubt and hope that he can help my people (Blue Collar Workers, no matter what religion, ethnicity, gender, race, or sexual orientation, etc. they may be).

                  And IF he CAN’T…or WON’T? I certainly hope we elect somebody next time who will! Because right now…they are ******…and not in a good way!

                  Like my old friend RTS said a bit downstream, “Only time will tell.” Tick Tock ****** *******!

                  • Gary Olson says

                    Oh…and one more thing RTS. I’m pretty sure the photo of me standing in front of the com trailer waiting to “load up” to “hit the line” is from the Murdock Basin Fire in the Wasatch Mountain Range.

                    Ahhhh…memories of our Glory Days!

                    I had a friend was a big baseball player
                    back in high school
                    He could throw that speedball by you
                    Make you look like a fool boy
                    Saw him the other night at this roadside bar
                    I was walking in, he was walking out
                    We went back inside sat down had a few drinks
                    but all he kept talking about was

                    Glory days well they’ll pass you by
                    Glory days in the wink of a young girl’s eye
                    Glory days, glory days

                    Well there’s a girl that lives up the block
                    back in school she could turn all the boy’s heads
                    Sometimes on a Friday I’ll stop by
                    and have a few drinks after she put her kids to bed
                    Her and her husband Bobby well they split up
                    I guess it’s two years gone by now
                    We just sit around talking about the old times,
                    she says when she feels like crying
                    she starts laughing thinking about


                    My old man worked 20 years on the line
                    and they let him go
                    Now everywhere he goes out looking for work
                    they just tell him that he’s too old
                    I was 9 nine years old and he was working at the
                    Metuchen Ford plant assembly line
                    Now he just sits on a stool down at the Legion hall
                    but I can tell what’s on his mind

                    Glory days yeah goin back
                    Glory days aw he ain’t never had
                    Glory days, glory days

                    Now I think I’m going down to the well tonight
                    and I’m going to drink till I get my fill
                    And I hope when I get old I don’t sit around thinking about it
                    but I probably will
                    Yeah, just sitting back trying to recapture
                    a little of the glory of, well time slips away
                    and leaves you with nothing mister but
                    boring stories of glory days

                    Chorus (repeat twice)

                    Bruce Spingsteen

                    • Gary Olson says

                      You know…the main reason I posted the photo of me in my first year as a hotshot standing in front of the Twin Otter comin’ back from a fire in the Gila Wilderness Area in southern New Mexico is because my baby face and stupid grin reminds me of so many of the Granite Mountain Hotshot Crew…Wade Parker and Travis Turbyfill for starters..



                      I wish Wade,Travis and all of the others GMIHS would have had hotshot crew bosses like I did.

                      Which is a reality check to remind me of why I have been here on this thread for so long and I know that is the reason why YOU people are still here as well.

                    • Gary Olson says

                      Whoops, I should have said,

                      1. Cut hand line and back fire it; or
                      2. Cut hand line and burn it out; or
                      3. Cut hand line, back fire it AND burn it out;
                      4. Repeat as often as is necessary.
                      5. Mop it up and COLD TRAIL it.
                      6. Go to the bar with the crew and talk about the last fire, the next fire…or some other fire.

                      Pretty ******* simple.

                  • Woodsman says


                    I love you, man. I meant ‘epic’ as you felt larger than life at the time (and you were right!)…had the world by the balls, so to speak. You ARE huge though, haha!

                    I’m cautiously optimistic as well, mainly because the regular folks have been screwed for so long that it’s hard to believe it will ever change. We’ll see.

                    I would like to see more unity of all people. Even though I’m doing OK, it was not long ago at all that I didn’t know how I was going to pay for basic needs. I know what it’s like to not have much food in the cupboard (hones your rifle skills quick.) Iwas different at the time as I had a safety net – I knew my parents wouldn’t let me starve. Many good people do not have that same safety net. I like to believe I never would have gone to that safety net but when a man has nothing to eat, who knows? I do know that there are many good people who are struggling and I hope that situation can be turned around.

                    I thought of you and your fond memories of your hotshot days. Times were simpler than, no? Bet it was great! Good health and blessings to you friend!!!


                    • Gary Olson says

                      I goin’ with you on President Trump…for the next four years or maybe more, because as you said, we do live in a Constitutional Republic.

                      So…we can’t talk the talk IF we don’t walk the walk.

                    • Gary Olson says

                      Oh and one more thing, you said “Times were simpler than, no?”

                      And I say, “yes they were.”

                      1. Cut hand line and back fire it; or
                      2. Cut hand line and burn it out; or
                      3. Cut hand line, back fire it AND burn it out;
                      4 Repeat as often as is necessary.
                      5. Mop it up.

                      Pretty ******* simple.

                    • Gary Olson says

                      Whoops out of order,

                      Gary Olson says
                      JANUARY 21, 2017 AT 11:04 AM

                      Whoops, I should have said,

                      1. Cut hand line and back fire it; or
                      2. Cut hand line and burn it out; or
                      3. Cut hand line, back fire it AND burn it out;
                      4. Repeat as often as is necessary.
                      5. Mop it up and COLD TRAIL it.
                      6. Go to the bar with the crew and talk about the last fire, the next fire…or some other fire.

                      Pretty ******* simple.

                    • Woodsman says

                      Gary said:

                      “I goin’ with you on President Trump…”

                      My intentions were not so much to be a Trump advocate but more of a Constitutional Republic of our great nation advocate. While I agree the 2 choices we were presented with couldn’t be more bizarre…the wife of a former president that imho is part of a group of individuals and organizations that have brought great harm to our country and the people OR a real estate mogul tv personality. But in my mind we are in need of something different that what we have had for a long, long time. We will see.

                      I am encouraged by Zinke as head of the Interior dept. There is no way that someone of his credentials will not see the problems in the current national fire policy. It’s blatantly obvious there are real problems with the way we manage wildfire on public lands currently.



                    • Gary Olson says

                      The Woodsman said, “My intentions were not so much to be a Trump advocate but more of a Constitutional Republic of our great nation advocate.”

                      That is what I meant as well. I did say that I expected everyone to accept the results of the elections…and I realized I should follow former President Obama and Hillary Clinton’s and accept the the will of the people who managed to get the complicated election algorithm right.

                      Although…IMHO, President Trump could make me feel a little bit better if he would stop opening my wounds with a wire brush and pouring salt in them with his apparent inability to deliver anything other than his stump speech which focuses solely on how much better he is than anyone else and the HHHUUGE landslide he won by, neither one of which are true.

                      It is time IMHO…too stop running for President, because yes…Donald Trump won and too start governing by telling us exactly how he is going to make the working people of this country’s lives better other than vague promises and generalized statements.

                      Raising the minimum age limits for Medicare eligibility, Social Security, and eliminating the Affordable Care Act without a replacement ready that is going to make medical care to continue to available to so many of his supporters in the rust belt are NOT the best places to start…I think, but then again, he is the expert.

                      I do find it interesting that so many people hate Obama Care but love the ACA. I have also cringed when so many people who voted for President Trump have said while being interviewed…”I sure hope I don’t lose the health care coverage for my family under the ACA because I took Trump seriously…but not literally. I really didn’t believe he would do most of the things he promised.”

                      in addition, as a veteran of our failed War on Drugs and after spending so much time on the Mexican Border….I can hardly wait to see The Big Beautiful Magnificent and HHHUUGE WALL on our border with Mexico and the Cashiers Check from el banco central del Estado Mexicano to pay for it.

                      If I were President Trump, I wouldn’t take a personal check from el Presidente de los Estados Unidos Mexicanos…Enrique Peña Nieto because I bet it will bounce and then our account will be overdrawn which will cost us a lot of overdraft fees we can’t afford.

                      But then again…he is the HHHHHUUUUGGGLLY businessman who hasn’t declared bankruptcy more than 7 times because he knows how to borrow money PLANNING on paying back less than he owes under renegotiated terms (which sounds good to me because unlike the Bank of China, I don’t own any Treasury Bills) I started with just a small loan from my father. It’s harder for me to imagine a better spokesperson for the disappearing middle class.

                      However, there is a HHHHUUUGGE difference between being obstructionists and governing
                      and now the real show begins. I can hardly wait because I am so excited to see all of the wonderful things Donald Trump, Steve Mnuchin


                      and Andrew Puzder


                      are going to do for my people.

                    • Gary Olson says

                      Oh…and like I said a ways downstream…I wouldn’t worry if I were a middle aged WF much less a young one just starting out with a family to support who needs the health insurance my job offers.

                      I am sure all of that talk about privatizing LOTS MORE public sector jobs is just bloviating talk…right? After all…it’s not like our current and last wars were fought with vast private armies of mercs and service providers that generated unimaginable wealth for private companies like former Vice President Cheney’s Halliburton because you know…you can’t trust the lying media. I just heard President Trump assure the people at the CIA his fued with them was never real…it was all manufactured by the dishonest media and NOT him on Twitter talking about him being an asset of the Russian Intelligence Services who has been compromised with personal and business related escapades (awkward) in Russia. I just can’t imagine someone with Donald Trump’s background having personal or professional issues…can you?

                      No…really, that is NOT a rhetorical question. Can you?

                    • Gary Olson says

                      I mean…lying dishonest mainstream media aside, I did read President Trump directly compare our great nations intelligence professionals, who are indeed the best among us, to Nazi’s who were responsible for the deaths of more than 80 million people during WWII.

                      President Trump did write on his Twitter account,

                      Donald J. Trump ✔ @realDonaldTrump
                      Intelligence agencies should never have allowed this fake news to “leak” into the public. One last shot at me.Are we living in Nazi Germany?
                      4:48 AM – 11 Jan 2017

                      That…while I have never heard him say a single bad thing about former KGB Colonel (who was station chief in EAST GERMANY)…Vladimir Putin.

                      Does any of that give you pause…or am I just an old worry wart who has been listening to too much fake news?

                      What do you think about that? I really do want to know? You are obviously a very smart, highly educated, deeply patriotic and very articulate forester or…Woodsman.

                    • Woodsman says

                      I’m not well researched on that entire story about the Russian hacking our election which turned out to be made up by our own intel community out of whole cloth. A more immediate & viable threat to our electronic voting equipment is the ctr 4 Am. progress & the corporation which manufactures the machines who both are actual run/funded by a certain individual of Hungarian descent and a prominent party donor.

                      Managers of major agencies & flag officers in the military as well, seem to be more political figures in order to achieve the respective positions. That being the case, these people are more susceptible to corruption.

                      I don’t know much of what a ‘tweet’ is but I assume it’s sort of a social media instant messaging type of thing. Trump’s message seems to be in response to a intel agency purposely sowing mis-information in order to benefit certain political establishments over another in the midst of an election & transfer of power. It’s interesting that he used the ‘nazi’ reference because it’s similar to fighting fire with fire. People that use those techniques frequently are not accustomed to being on the receiving end of them & it throws them off-balance.

                      I stay informed in my way but I gotta tell you, in my estimation there is a veritable shit-ton of mis-information to sift through in today’s world to get to the truth. It’s a lot of ‘white noise.’

                      As far as Putin goes, we have more than our fair share of skeletons in the closet. We have woven our own tangled web in the past. It’s hard to tell what’s what.


                    • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

                      Reply to Woodsman post on
                      January 21, 2017 at 8:41 pm

                      >> Woodsman said…
                      >> I’m not well researched on that entire
                      >> story about the Russian hacking our
                      >> election which turned out to be made
                      >> up by our own intel community out
                      >> of whole cloth.

                      Well… that right there is the ‘sign of the times’.

                      You admit you don’t know enough about something to support the final conclusion you have already made ( and believe ).

                      Nothing to see.
                      Move along.

                      >> Woodsman also said…
                      >> I can spot a scam from 80 chains away.

                      Then all you need to do ( in this case ) is to take a few more steps forward from your current ’82 chain’ distance.

                    • Woodsman says

                      Fair enough. Educate me. Did Brennan initially claim the Russians interfered in the election and later said it wasn’t true after all? I’m listening.

                      I’ll edit my statement:

                      “I’m not well researched on that entire
                      >> story about the Russians ALLEGEDLY hacking our

                      What would be your most accurate reflection of the facts in this topic?

                    • Gary Olson says


                      Thank you for your thoughtful response. I don’t know anything about Zinke except that he is a relatively new Congressman and a former Navy SEAL.

                      I’m not sure what any of that has to do with knowing how wildfire should be managed in the future so you must know something about him I don’t other than he bonded with Donald Trump Jr. over hunting?

                      I also know that most political observers expected the job to go to Washington State’s Cathy Anne McMorris Rodgers who has been a faithful and loyal Republican political figure in national politics for some time who seemed eminently more qualified for the job than Zinke to me?

                      I also have written before on this thread that based on my experience, Democratic administrations always meant better budgets and more positive attention than Republican administrations did.

                      Now…I don’t want anyone to pick a President based on who makes things better for land management agencies and it never made any difference to me personally since I was a soldier in the disastrously failed War on Drugs and that shielded me from budget cuts that hurt normal land management types.

                      Other than national security…I have said on this thread I am a single issue voter these days. Who will stop transferring almost all of the wealth in this country to just a few individuals? This has been going on for almost 40 years now. If that person is President Trump…I will vote for him in four years.

                      I just happen to think that someone who very well be the poster boy for the east coast liberal democratic elite establishment up until a couple of years ago…is not that person but I certainly hope he is since he now had the job.

                      And I don’t know about any of President Trump’s Russian connections other than he and former KGB Colonel who is a mass butcher of civilians (in Grozny and now Syria) who has journalists and political opponents murdered or put into gulags Vladimir Putin who has invaded almost all of his neighbors in recent years and is poised to invade more of them in the near future really seem to have a bromance going on.

                      So…this makes me want to see his tax returns in the worst way so I can see IF he has any close business connections in Russia. And given his personal and professional history, it is only too easy for me to believe he may be compromised by the Russian intelligence services.

                      I don’t think there is any doubt now in anyone’s mind except for his that the Russian Government played a key role in helping him to get elected over Hillary Clinton…is there? Which makes me ask the question…”Why did they do that?”, since I don’t believe in coincidences.

                      And just for the record…I would have been perfectly satisfied (more or less) with President Jeb! other than he would have cut land management agencies budgets even more and continued the hemorrhaging of what little wealth the disappearing middle class has left to the top 1%.

                    • Gary Olson says

                      Oh…and one more thing. I do know President Trump Tweeted the following:

                      Donald J. Trump ✔ @realDonaldTrump
                      Russia just said the unverified report paid for by political opponents is “A COMPLETE AND TOTAL FABRICATION, UTTER NONSENSE.” Very unfair!

                      4:13 AM – 11 Jan 2017

                      I’m not sure quoting the Russian Government is all that helpful to him…at least as far as I am concerned.

                      Donald J. Trump ✔ @realDonaldTrump
                      Russia has never tried to use leverage over me. I HAVE NOTHING TO DO WITH RUSSIA – NO DEALS, NO LOANS, NO NOTHING!
                      4:31 AM – 11 Jan 2017

                      Nor do I think that just taking his word for his lack of involvement in Russia is reasonable given his background…or even without his background since President Ronald Reagan so famously said, Trust but verify” when it came to dealing with the Russians.

                      Donald J. Trump ✔ @realDonaldTrump
                      Intelligence agencies should never have allowed this fake news to “leak” into the public. One last shot at me.Are we living in Nazi Germany?
                      4:48 AM – 11 Jan 2017

                      And I jsut happen to think that no one should compare anything to Nazi Germany other than Pol Pot and the Khmer Rouge, Turkey treatment of the Kurdish and Armenian people, Bashar Al-Assad and Putin’s treatment of Sunni Muslims in Syria, Putin’s treatment of Chechen civilians, and last but not least…the great Stalin purges of his own people. I also happen to think that no one should ever compare our intelligence services in any context to Nazi’s in any conceivable way.

                      Donald J. Trump ✔ @realDonaldTrump
                      The dishonest media likes saying that I am in Agreement with Julian Assange – wrong. I simply state what he states, it is for the people….
                      5:25 AM – 5 Jan 2017

                      I don’t think any person who wants to be taken seriously should ever quote Julian Assange.

                      Donald J. Trump ✔ @realDonaldTrump
                      to make up their own minds as to the truth. The media lies to make it look like I am against “Intelligence” when in fact I am a big fan!
                      5:45 AM – 5 Jan 2017


                      Donald J. Trump ✔ @realDonaldTrump
                      The “Intelligence” briefing on so-called “Russian hacking” was delayed until Friday, perhaps more time needed to build a case. Very strange!

                      And I think that putting Intelligence in quotes appeared to be Trump mocking the intelligence agencies as in the old reliable…”Military Intelligence is an oxymoron.”

                      Donald J. Trump ✔ @realDonaldTrump
                      Julian Assange said “a 14 year old could have hacked Podesta” – why was DNC so careless? Also said Russians did not give him the info!
                      4:22 AM – 4 Jan 2017


                      Donald J. TrumpVerified account

                      WikiLeaks proves even the Clinton campaign knew Crooked mishandled classified info, but no one gets charged? RIGGED!

                      See previous about quoting Julian Assange as a trustworthy and reliable source, nor would I rely on Wikileaks since our “Intelligence Agencies” agree he has blood on his hands for publishing the leaks by Ms. Manning that had the names and descriptions of Afghanistan “Intelligence” human assets.

                      The problem with defending President Trump…is Donald Trump himself. IF you are going to an apologist for President Trump…you are going to be mighty busy for the next few years doing nothing but making excuses for President Trump.

        • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

          Reply to Woodsman post on January 20, 2017 at 10:22 pm

          >> Woodsman said…
          >> WTKTT,
          >> Here’s some thoughts on a very important matter that you have
          >> been talking about several times since the most recent election.
          >> ( snip )

          Thank you for all of that… including your multi-post ‘manifesto’ of sorts.

          I have to make this short because I’m on a ‘dumbphone’ and I’m currently out exercising my right as an American to protest and taking part in what is already a historic event.

          I have not read *all* of your ‘posts’. ( I actually stopped when I hit the racist parts )… but I will… because if you took all that time to ‘compose’ all of that… the least I can do ( later ) is finish reading it all.

          But first I need to finish ( along with millions of others today ) reminding some people that if you are going to pick fights… be sure to show up with the proper sized weaponry.

          Well, I was there and I saw what you did
          I saw it with my own two eyes
          So you can wipe off that grin,
          I know where you’ve been
          It’s all been a pack of lies.

          Phil Collins – “In the Air Tonight”

  17. calvin says

    Investigation of the Chimny tops 2 fire coming.

    Wtf. Thanks for the follow up to my last post. And for the link you provided. It does appear that officials knew the cause of the fire early on. Too bad they didn’t go ahead and say the juveniles were also the ones to start the first chimney tops fire. Seems like a safe assumption, right?

  18. calvin says

    I learned how to share a link. Only been about 3 years.

    This video was about two days before the fire blew up and escaped the containment lines that were established as THE plan to suppress the chimney tops 2 fire.

    This plan included letting the chimney tops trail burn as it was included in the 400pus acre containment area. Interestingly, the trail had been renovated in 2014 to the cost of approximately $750k.

    • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

      Reply to calvin post on January 14, 2017 at 10:22 am

      >> calvin said…
      >> I learned how to share a link. Only been about 3 years.
      >> This video was about two days before the fire blew up and escaped the
      >> containment lines that were established as THE plan to suppress the
      >> chimney tops 2 fire.

      Thank you, calvin. Fascinating video… especially the HIGH-RESOLUTION ‘close-ups’ of that small fire just 48 hours before 13 people would lose their lives because it had not been ‘suppressed’.

      This video alone seems to be definitive ‘proof’ that there WERE all kinds of ‘opportunities’ for ‘suppression’ other than GSMNP Fire Management Officer Greg Salansky’s decision to just “let it burn” and ‘hope for the best”.

      Given the extreme drought conditions and the extreme fire danger at the time this video was taken… there certainly ARE ‘similarities’ here between this fire and the 2013 Yarnell Hill Fire.

      In BOTH cases… there wasn’t the proper sense of ‘urgency’ on the part of the ‘professionals’ tasked with the initial suppression efforts, and no full recognition that there was a limited ‘window of opportunity’ before something very BAD and very TRAGIC *could/would* happen ( given the conditions and the weather forecasts )… including needless and totally unnecessary loss of life.

      What’s also interesting in the video is that the WIND was obviously already becoming a ‘factor’, even 48 hours BEFORE the ‘blowup’… and also the fact that even these supposed ‘containment lines’ were just park roads that were still fully open to the PUBLIC.

      Even by your own accounts… and even on the day of the ‘blowup’ itself ( Monday, November 28, 2016 )… there was still such a lack of any sense of ‘urgency’ that there were still ‘hikers’ out there on those GSMNP trails and they, themselves, almost became ‘victims’ of this fire.

      >> calvin also said…
      >> BTW
      >> This plan included letting the chimney tops trail burn as it was included in the 400pus
      >> acre containment area. Interestingly, the trail had been renovated in 2014 to the
      >> cost of approximately $750k.

      What did GSMNP Fire Management Officer ( and Chimney Tops 2 Incident Commander ) Greg Salansky think was going to happen… under those extreme fire conditions, the fuel loads, and the predicted weather?

      That it would just slowly burn right up to his ‘containment lines’ ( park roads ) and just ‘go out’?

      Speaking of VIDEOS and “The Chimney Tops 2 Fire”…

      Even on the night of the blowup… comments were already appearing on various social media sights with people saying they had ALREADY heard that the “Chimney Tops 2 Fire” might have been STARTED by “people playing with matches”.

      Some of those comments said they believed it was something that had already been ‘reported’ on the TELEVISION… even BEFORE the ‘blowup’ began.

      I finally found the ‘source’ of those early ‘reports’.

      There really WAS a ‘TV’ report as early as 5:00 PM on Monday, November 28, 2016, which featured an on-camera ‘interview’ with GSMNP Park Ranger ‘Ed Morin’, who said the ‘suspected’ SOURCE of the fire was already, in fact, “people playing with matches”.

      The same interview also said that this same GSMNP Park Ranger ‘Ed Morin’ was the same one who had initially ‘spotted’ the ‘Chimney Tops 2’ Fire when it began the afternoon of November 23, 2016.


      ‘Channel 8’ Reporter Kyle Grainger was there in Gatlinburg all day on Monday, November 28, 2016.

      Kyle Grainger was ‘on the air’ and giving a LIVE update at 5:01 PM that Monday, at the very TOP of the ‘Channel 8’ 5:00 PM News broadcast.

      Video Title: Hikers warned of wildfires.

      Here is a direct link to this PUBLIC video sitting on the ‘Channel 8’ Server…

      NOTE: Your browser must be able to play MP4 videos directly ( or have a plugin installed that can ) in order for the following link to work…

      Reporter Kyle Grainger was at the ‘Gatlinburg Scenic Overlook’ just northwest of Gatlinburg, on the ‘Gatlinburg Bypass’. He was actually standing right here, next to the ‘photograph’ that is there explaining the view in the distance…

      35.711369, -83.530065

      Just in case that video ‘disappears’… here is a complete Transcript of this ‘Channel 8’ PUBLIC video… including his ‘on camera’ interview with GSMNP Park Ranger ‘Ed Morin’…

      ( Subtitle showing at bottom of screen: WILDFIRE GROWING IN SMOKIES )
      ( It is exactly 5:01 PM and it is still ‘daylight’ in Gatlinburg )

      +0:00 ( 5:01 PM, Monday, November 28, 2016 )

      Anchor reporter: We go LIVE to channel 8 reporter Kyle Grainger now in Gatlinburg… he’s been there all day. Kyle?… How is it now?

      Kyle Grainger: It’s still windy out here, guys… and it’s still VERY smoky.

      We’ve got a lot of leaves that are flying across the parking lot.

      We’re actually at one of the overlooks on the Gatlinburg Bypass.

      ( ? ) is just down the way there… but you can see… VERY difficult to see into downtown Gatlinburg because of all the smoke up here that has been created. A lot of ash in the air… so… you know… it’s kind of flying into your eyes. A lot of people were stopping here to look… you know… they’re covered over with their masks.

      Let me show you a different perspective. The picture at the bottom of your screen in the video actually is what it is going to look like on a normal day with this same view were we are standing now. You can see just all of the smoke there.

      I am told that the fire… ah… continues to spread.

      They continue to have issues with this because of the winds tonight.

      They have made contact with about thirty people or so that are hiking in the park, near this area.

      Park service trying to get a hold of those folks and let them know what the situation is.

      ( Video now ‘cuts’ to an earlier ( taped ) interview with ‘National Park Service ( NPS ) Spokesperson’ Dana Soehn )

      NPS Spokesperson Dana Soehn: Thirty people that we knew were in the back-country that we have evacuated and given
      notices to through text messages and also our marking all of the back-country trails…
      so we have several trails that have closed.

      ( Video now ‘fades’ to another earlier interview with GSMNP Ranger Ed Morin, an older man with glasses, a GSMNP ‘ball cap’, and a bright yellow overjacket ).

      GSMNP Ranger Ed Morin: We had reports of… ( pause )… ya know… people throwin’ matches. ( He imitates the ‘striking’ and the ‘throwing of matches’ as he says this ). Uh… Uhm… unsubstantiated… but we had reports of that. The fire IS… WAS ‘human caused’. It’s under investigation.

      Kyle Grainger: Ed Morin… one of the rangers that you saw there in that… uh… interview… he actually spotted this fire when it started… at only about two acres… and then continually has grown to what we believer is five hundred… if not MORE… but… uh… again… park rangers say they really can’t get a perspective because of just how smoky it is. I do want to give you a perspective of how far this fire has traveled throughout the course of the day today… ‘Chimney Tops’ being over here ( he points to them on the overlook map )… in this area just below Mount Le Conte. We understand that embers flew up to three miles away… near the ‘Twin Creeks’ area, actually causing more spot fires… and NOW the fire has ‘jumped’ parts of the ‘Twin Creek’ road there… in that area. This is also the Bud… Bud Ogle cabin area… and is NOW… uh… creeping up the ridgeline towards the ‘Park Vista’ ( Hotel ). So that’s kinda the idea of how this fire has spread today. The concern continues to be these winds that blow around.

      I can tell you… we have LOTS of things flying through the parking lot. We have tree limbs that are coming down as well… so… as you drive overnight tonight… if you have any plans to be driving around in these smoky areas… or where the winds are picking up… that’s also some of the other problems tonight.

      Reporting live in Gatlinburg… Kyle Grainger, local eight news.

      Anchor reporter: Alright. Kyle… thanks a lot.



      Again… the part of that interview that did, in fact, go ‘on the air’ at 5:00 PM Monday, November 28, 2016… a few hours BEFORE the ‘blowup’ and the fatalities…

      GSMNP Ranger Ed Morin: We had reports of… ( pause )… ya know… people throwin’ matches. ( He imitates the ‘striking’ and the ‘throwing of matches’ as he says this ). Uh… Uhm… unsubstantiated… but we had reports of that. The fire IS… WAS ‘human caused’. It’s under investigation.

      • WantsToKnowTheTruth says


        Again… speaking of ‘videos’ related to the recent fatal ‘Chimney Tops 2’ fire disaster… the following is an interesting ‘compilation’…


        The day after the ‘blowup’… someone did a good job of ‘collecting’ a whole bunch of ‘videos’ taken by various people that were shot DURING the fatal ‘blowup’ the day before.

        Most of these video clips were shot from INSIDE the ‘blowup’ at various place like downtown Gatlinburg itself, and places just west of there on Highway 321 where motels and residences were engulfed in flames.

        YouTube Video Title: “LIVE FOOTAGE ( Collection ) – Gatlinburg Fire”
        Published on November 29, 2016

        Begins with another ‘escape’ video… similar to the one that hit social media the night of the blowup… but this one has ‘background radio traffic’. There was a radio in the truck that was ‘scanning’ fire and police frequencies during the ‘blowup’ and this ‘escape’ ( also from Chalet Village? )… and you can hear the chaos and the confusion that was happening on the radio at that time. This video *may* have actually been shot by a firefighter riding in the passenger seat of an actual engine ‘on duty’ during the ‘blowup’.

        NOTE: LANGUAGE WARNING for this ‘first video segment’.

        Another Kyle Grainger ‘live’ report from Gatlinburg at 11:00 PM Monday night.

        Video shot by someone driving right through downtown Gatlinburg at the height of the actual Monday night firestorm. He passes Engines actively battling fires in the downtown area.

        Citizen video taken in downtown Gatlinburg mid-afternoon on Monday a few hours before the blowup. Smoke in downtown is incredible and the winds are ALREADY picking up in downtown Gatlinburg. She describes the winds as already being in the 15-20 mph range, and she actually says “the wind is coming from the direction of the Chimney Tops”.

        Citizen video taken from downtown Gatlinburg at the height of the firestorm, after dark, on Monday night. Video is looking in the ‘Park Vista Hotel’ direction and shows that ‘hillside’ engulfed flames.

        Some ‘transcripts’ from this video that starts at 15:28…
        Video author: “This is the fire burning where Park Vista is. I don’t know if you can see it or not… but the whole mountain where the hotel is on fire. It’s all engulfed right now.”
        Video author: “I can hardly stand still, the wind is blowing so hard, and there’s so much ASH in the air”.
        Video author says “The whole mountainside where Park Vista is, the big round hotel above Gatlinburg, is completely engulfed in flames.”
        Video author: “I don’t know if you heard that or not but there were huge explosions just now on top of the mountain… the flames shooting up I don’t know what… something just BLEW UP.”
        Video author: “There’s some of the flames that are shooting up from whatever the explosion just was that went off”.
        Video author: “There are firetrucks and ambulances from all over Sevier County comin’ up through here.”
        Video author: “LISTEN!… there’s ANOTHER EXPLOSION! I hope that’s not the Park Vista hotel. That’s a huge hotel with lots of people in there.”
        Video author: “The wind right now is SO… the wind is probly blowin’ 40 to 50 miles an hour. It’s knocking everything down and it’s making the flames… it’s making the flames SO much worse.”
        Fire truck pulls into parking lot where he is filming and someone yells out at him from the fire truck “STOP FILMING and GO!”
        Video author: “Okay guys… the fire department is here now and they’re saying I have to stop filming and go now. The flames are gettin’ too close down here now to all the hotels. I’m OUT.”


        Video taken during the firestorm, just west of Gatlinburg at the junction of Highway 321 and ‘West Ogle Drive’, by David Ball and China Green of WVLT. It shows the ‘Sleepy Bear Motel’ now fully engulfed in flames.

        Some Dialog from this video…
        David Ball: “Hey guys… David Ball and China Green here. We’re outside of Gatlinburg on ( Highway ) 321 at Ogle Drive. There are several structures on fire around us. Right now crews are comin’ in. Several fire departments from all over east Tennessee are comin’ in to help fight this fire. China walk with me over here… You can see here’s one of the structures that’s on fire right now.”

        China Green: “So this is the ( Sleepy Bear? ) hotel… or what’s left of it. We’ve been hearing ‘bombing’ sounds. Things are just blowing up at this hotel. It’s literally just about gone. I’ve never seen anything like this. It’s literally every street you turn on… there’s something else engulfed in flames.”

        Channel 11 field reporter Curtis McLoud.
        Video report from near the ‘Gatlinburg Welcome Center’, at the height of the fire storm. He interviews two evacuees from Gatlinburg who saw their houses and business burn down and already know they have lost ‘everything’.

        More video taken from downtown Gatlinburg during the height of the firestorm. Fire engine seen hauling ass through the smoke in downtown Gatlinburg.

        • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

          Correction(s) for above.

          Got my ‘west’ and ‘east’ mixed up.

          Most of the video segments above taken on Highway 321 ( like the one of the ‘Sleepy Bear Motel’ on fire ) are of hotels and buildings burning to the EAST of Gatlinburg… not the WEST.

    • says

      I have a question about clearing around structures in Yarnell prior to the first fire—from the ADOSH report I read that from 2005-2011 $169,000 was spent in the Yarnell area to clear 375 acres and $27,500 in 2007 to clear 40 acres near Peeples Valley. Wondering why Yarnell was so lacking in defensible space if all that money was spent to remove brush etc. ?

      • Charlie says

        That is a good question Diane-the money came in but where was the work? But here is an interesting video link to You Tube showing Yarnell and the Prison Crew as they worked the Yarnell Hill Fire. You can see the fuses being thrown–just one of the ways that back burns and burn outs are made. Was this on Yarnell Hill and what time would it be if so–I am trying to identify the exact location of the back burn–might be hard since I can’t find the video of the back burn above the Shrine. This might go extinct as well so enjoy while you can.

        Pretty sure Joy has photos of the BS ranch three weeks before when there was no defensible space there then again immediately before the fire when it became known as a bomb proof safety destination and had now the wide defensible space. If not the perhaps WTKTT can give us how to get satellite photos on certain dates, for example three weeks before June 30, 2013 and then again on June 30, 2013. Or would those also be redacted?

        What are the chances that we were in Buckeye Arizona looking at a F-150 4×4 to maybe purchase when right next too it was the GMHS water truck with logo and all on it. We asked if it were for sale, but the Buckeye Jones Ford Dealer said it was there to be serviced. Buckeye is the west side of Phoenix on I-10 toward LA. Strange to see that considering who we are.

          • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

            Reply to Diane lomas post on January 18, 2017 at 10:22 am

            >> Diane lomas asked…
            >> The prison firefighters could participate in back burns
            >> using hand thrown fuzees?

            Yes. The ‘Prison Crews’ are ‘supposed’ to be fully qualified ‘Type 2’ handcrews… which means they are also ‘supposed’ to be capable of doing ‘most’ of the things you would expect of a Wildland handcrew.

            That includes hiking TO/FROM the fire itself, line work, saw work and manual ignitions ( backburns, burnouts, etc. ).

            That being said… there is currently NO evidence in the public record that the DOC ‘Lewis’ Crew itself was ever asked to perform, or ever attempted to perform, any ‘manual burnouts’ ( using fusees or drip-torches or anything else ) on either Saturday, June 29, 2013, or the following day, Sunday, June 30.

            According to ALL available testimony about the ‘tactics’ used by Russ Shumate for his ‘Initial Attack’ on Saturday… there were never any ‘planned burnouts’ or ‘backfires’ involved.

            He considered the Saturday ‘Initial Attack’ to just be a ‘mop up’ operation ( since there was little to no fire or even ‘smokes’ showing on Saturday morning )… and that’s why he only sent 6 members of the DOC Lewis Crew up there and also decided to let his ICT4 ‘Trainee’ Justin Smith handle things that Saturday.

            On Sunday… Darrell Willis was given some ‘DOC’ crews to help with structure protection out at the Double-Bar-A Ranch… but that was primarily the YUMA DOC Crew, and not anyone from the ‘Lewis’ DOC crew.

            So the clip in the above linked video showing members of the Lewis DOC Crew happily lighting and tossing ‘fusees’ does NOT appear to have been something they were doing at the 2013 Yarnell Hill Fire.. It appears to be a video clip from some OTHER fire the Lewis Crew worked in 2013.

            But since there is still so much that is NOT known about what really happened on both June 29 and June 30, 2013… and so much that is still NOT in the ‘public evidence record’… I suppose anything is still possible.

            • Charlie says

              It would be interesting to know all the areas the Prison Crew has worked. It is hard to identify the area, although very similar to the Yarnell area–there is in the video clips from various areas, some not near the Yarnell incident.

              There seems to be a continuous cover up in the Yarnell Fire Debacle–people that were wanting to talk had been threatened and ordered to keep their mouths shut. We have talked personally with these individuals with impeccable reputations. These individuals want the truth out, but of course they have not and likely will never be interviewed. So, if anything is known, the truth has been covered up by making a debacle into a heroic performance. Truth is that the situation of killing 19 men may never be exposed properly–people prefer the heroism doctrine over the truth. Indeed this deserves a Grand Jury attention and outside investigation.

              It can make you sick at the stomach to think of how people operate to protect their reputations and profit margins at the expense of truth and the loss of life and safety of wild land fire fighters –those grunts that risk it all for a small wage.

              • Charlie says

                Joy believes the fusee throw is toward the Peeples Valley area–Since she has hiked that area for years–back with Snake Man, Frankie and some others over a ten or so year span. Snake Man and Frankie were prospectors and hikers with Snake Man a fellow that rounded up Snakes and kept them loose in his house right up behind the Ranch House Cafe, where he also worked as a dish washer for a long period of time.

                Both Snake Man (Tommy Megan) and Frankie Serros died of brain tumors–Joy and I visited Snake Man’s ash box at the Prescott Veteran’s Graveyard. My Dad’s grave is there only about 50 feet from where Snake Man’s ash box is. The VA keeps cremation remains in something that looks like postal boxes for a memorial and burial to veterans. Snake Man was a Viet Nam vet and my dad was a WW1 machinegunner at Alsace Lorainne.

                They were both entering mines and wading water that was saturated with Arsenic. Joy wanted me to go in that mine but I could smell the Arsenic and told her you best keep out of that mine. So there are some mines around here that contain Arsenic and likely Cyanide solutions with that. If you want to investigate them be sure you have rubber boots high enough to keep the liquid off your skin and it might be a good idea to wear a respirator and carry a canary bird or mouse in a cage. If that bugger keels over then get the hell out–radon, hydrogen sulphide gasses, and carbon monoxide are just a few of the gasses that can kill as quick as a wild fire.

                If you wade the water your skin will absorb a fine dose of those chemicals–and those fellows were making numerous trips into that one mine since there are crystals back in there. I believe the many doses they got produced the brain tumors. Joy now has two herself. Add to that the respiratory problems she developed after the many hikes through the retardant, it is a wonder she has not joined Snake Man and Frankie. She is sick in bed today–we visited the doctor yesterday and they prescribed a bunch of medicine–and since it is raining she will be confined to bed at least for a couple days.

                Joy by the way had her snake boot bit entering the mine I above referred to and right after both Frankie and Snake Man had entered the audit. The boot held OK but the broken off fang managed to get enough spray on her leg so that the skin absorbed enough venom to put her in the hospital with a swollen leg and a black leg about 11 inches up on the left side. Her hands and arms on both sides swelled up huge so they were no longer recognizable–anyhow the doctor bill ran about 48 grand–Joy is still paying payments on that bill.

                They killed that snake so you won’t have to worry about him if you enter that mine–but avoid all the water in it you can.

                Now about the photo and whether it is Yarnell. Joy is at this moment contacting the Prison Crew members as to exactly where that video was taken. So we should know the facts there. Joy is pretty confident it is toward Peeples Valley–but no better way than to go to the horses mouth.

                The Prison Crew responded to an ad when we needed someone to do defensible space here after the Yarnell Fire. I must say those men don’t mess around and had my place looking good in two days and after hauling off many loads of brush. They were doing lots of good works for people in that area–shows that there are many prisoners that do not need to be there.

                About 80 per cent of these crimes now a days are related to dope and alcohol and it works out that about 20 per cent of those fellows doing time need to stay there. The rest should have alternative ways of dealing with the crimes. But the prison system is big business similar to the retardant business. When you have billion dollar industries inculcated into the system it is almost impossible to remove them no mater how faulty they become. Their influence and money buys everything from the medical profession to high political influence to continue their crimes against humanity. The sadness is that they can make criminal activity–such as the killing of the 19 and the many deaths due to retardant dumps look like heroic action. Hell they can even hand out awards for such action when many of those responsible should be prosecuted. But they will say we don’t live in a perfect world and this was God’s will for the men or else it was just an accident and part of the job being a wild land fire fighter.

                I wonder what a Grand Jury would decide–I know what many on this site have decided and they are the experts you would find on a Grand Jury. That would change things for the better–A remedy would be found to prevent the type carelessness we saw that killed those men.

        • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

          Reply to Charlie post on January 17, 2017 at 9:24 pm

          >> Charlie said…
          >> …here is an interesting video link to You Tube showing Yarnell
          >> and the Prison Crew as they worked the Yarnell Hill Fire.
          >> You can see the fuses being thrown–just one of the ways that
          >> back burns and burn outs are made.
          >> Was this on Yarnell Hill and what time would it be if so…

          This YouTube video with the title “Lewis Crew 2013” ( which was posted publicly by someone named ‘Kara White’ back on April 14, 2014 ) contains clips from many different ‘locations’ where the Arizona Department of Corrections ( DOC ) ‘Lewis Crew’ was working ( presumably all in 2013 )… including the 2013 Yarnell Hill Fire.

          The clips ( and photos ) appear to be all ‘mixed’ up’ and not in any kind of
          ‘sequential’ or ‘location’ order.

          The clips of them ‘throwing fusees’ ( to ignite vegetation on purpose ) at +4:40 into the video does NOT appear to be the Yarnell Area… but the terrain IS ‘similar’ and it DOES appear to be ( somewhere? ) in Arizona.

          Only the person who put that video together could say for sure exactly WHERE all these ‘video clips’ and ‘photos’ were actually taken.

          NOTE: I can find no ‘official’ ( public ) connection between the ‘Kara White’ who posted this video of the ‘Lewis DOC Crew’ and the ‘Arizona Department of Corrections’ ( in general ) and/or the ‘Lewis DOC Crew’ specifically.

          She may have been someone who just knew one of the crew members and was posting the video as a ‘favor’ to that person.

          The proof of that seems to come from the one-and-only comment that has been made on this video.

          After posting the video to YouTube… ‘Kara White’ herself left the only comment on the video and she simply said…

          “Here you go, baby”

          …as if she was simply posting as a ‘favor’ to someone she calls ‘baby’.

        • says

          Informative article that you shared,thank you. It is clear that providing defensible space around structures is essential to protecting homes. Thank you for the data.

        • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

          Reply to Robert the Second ( RTS ) post
          on January 17, 2017 at 9:34 pm

          >> RTS said…
          >> Not quite a complete answer to your question. Good article
          >> on the beneficial value of creating defensible space around
          >> your structures.

          Interesting ( and accurate ) ‘conclusion’ in this Pacific Biodiversity Institute ( PBI ) report…

          The fact that the Yarnell Hill Fire grew out of control was predictable.
          The interior chaparral shrublands that it burned through are notorious for
          high intensity wildfire. There was extreme fire weather during the fire
          coupled with very dry vegetation as a result of long-term drought, high
          temperatures, intense sunshine and persistent winds. Unfortunately, it
          appears that insufficient attention was placed on the critical warning
          signals of extreme fire weather and fuel conditions, leading to an
          unfortunate loss of lives.


          Worth repeating…

          The fact that the Yarnell Hill Fire grew out of control was PREDICTABLE.

          Unfortunately, it appears that insufficient attention was placed
          on the CRITICAL WARNING SIGNALS of extreme fire weather and fuel
          conditions, leading to an unfortunate loss of lives.

          I wonder if the PBI has taken a hard look at the tragic ‘Chimney Tops 2’ fire yet.

          They really could just ‘reprint’ most of that same paragraph.

          • Robert the Second says


            Here’s a link for January 17, 2017 Wildfire Today article titled: “Chimney Tops 2 Fire discussed at Senate Confirmation Hearing,” with a short
            < 3-minute video clip on the discussion with Montana Representative Ryan Zinke to be the Interior Dept. Secretary.


            A second article, dated January 7, 2017 titled: "Former Fire Management Officer fought off the Chimney Tops 2 Fire saving his home."


            • Woodsman says


              Thanks for the links. I hold out hope that Cdr Zinke, if approved as the next head of Interior, will make an honest assessment of the fire policy of all the important federal agencies under his command… and take appropriate measures to make changes as required.

              Your second link? I’ll withhold judgement of the retired NPS FMO for now but I will say the story of his account is (IMHO) simply dripping with irony as well as a sprinkling of facepalm. Wait…was that a judgment?


              PS: with the risk of sounding like a know-it-all & Mr. Perfect… my private property has trails (firelines) throughout that I maintain with a GASOLINE powered leafblower… and I burn it off annually under the proper conditions. An uncontrollable wildfire there is not possible because a major lack of available fuel (particularly ladder fuels that would allow a surface fire into the canopy.) The place is overrun with all sorts of wildlife.

              OK. I admit it. I’m a know-it-all.


    • Charlie says

      Gary Olson will appreciate this photo of a uranium miner–

      This article is about Church Rock Uranium mining about 7 miles NE of Gallup, NM. Since I worked for United Nuclear at that very mine I can tell you a bit about this miner. He is not a long time experienced miner like the photo I saw of Gary’s Dad He is damn sure unhappy since you can see he has already stuck a steel–his arm definition tells me he has not been working a jack leg for long or doing a lot of lifting. I would say he is really about what we would class Donut as a wild land fire fighter experience–very new at the profession. His face would be looking like a coal miner’s face if he had been at the mine face very long. Looks like he just started one hole, stuck his steel, then now was working the second hole and maybe has that steel stuck from the look on his face.

      The chain link wire hanging behind him means he might be starting a new round to blast 6 or eight feet forward. However since he is drilling foot holes first, that is either from inexperience or else he is trying to do long holes. You would want to drill your back holes (top) ones first and bottom ones last since the water and muck from the uppermost holes would drain down and likely fill the bottom holes. If he is drilling long holes–test holes that can reach out 75 ft. in a fan shape to hunt hot uranium spots (the geologist comes along with a long probed Geiger counter to check these holes) then it is odd to start with down holes again.

      However if you look at the black streaks on the wall around him then you would know he is in a very hot area with high grade pitchblende ore. He is working in conditions that explain why a miner is not so anxious to do second shifts and why most of us figured we were at war every day.

      One thing wrong with the picture is that he is doing is working there without the chain link wire overhead. That was a good reason to get yourself killed or fired if a safety inspector showed up, because sandstone can not be sounded like hard rock, so a slab could easily kill that young miner without bolted wire mesh overhead. I suspect from the look on his face that was one of his last shifts as a miner. Sticking steel is the same as a wild land fire fighter that is too sick too work or that keeps breaking safety rules–he best stay home. If that is a steel stuck above his head then he is in deep shit–well he is in double deep shit and literally standing in deep radioactive shit.

      It is amazing how similar the miner and wild land fire fighter look after a days work–yellow wet suits and black as hell. I am half Black (moms maiden name) but was always full black after a days work in the uranium mine. I wonder who is blacker–the uranium miner or the wild land fire fighter (after work that is). So much from the Black Irishman old Sonny.

      • Charlie says

        Oh shit–no safety glasses on–sure fire at the United Nuclear mine–they should be hanging on your jacket so you could put them on quickly if you saw a light headed your way. Those damn things got mucked up so quick that you had to take them off or keep wiping them to see what the hell you were doing–but you needed to put them on if a safety or mine inspector showed. In the mines no one can sneak up on you because the light of someone coming will get to you before they do.

        Anyway that guy has so many similarities to breaking safety rules as the GMHS, and even was sticking his steel. Things that get people in trouble–that miner needed better training but the dangers are the same–health hazards but the accident hazards go up with careless operations.

      • Charlie says

        Miner’s lingo for chain link is wire mesh and dynamite is powder. Defensible space in miner’s lingo means about 100 yards back from my blasting area.

        • Charlie says

          It is amazing how much can be gleaned from photos and from an experienced eye visiting a site. I started the mining experience as early as 9 years of age when I would go underground with my Dad in his copper, silver and gold mines and help him with his work. He worked entirely by hand and used an old black smith hand forge to sharpen and temper his hand steel. I can still hear his rhythmic pinging of the hand steel with his 8 pound single jack driving that steel into the hard rock to make out his rounds. He was a proud old Irish miner–he never worked a day in his life on social security–he did not believe in government hand outs–but thought the only way was though individual effort. He definitely had a work ethic that some men do lack in this new age of the welfare state. I can truly say there were scant days I did not see him do a days labor–and that was only when he had to go for supplies or some type business.

          The working men and women have been this nation’s greatness. Those are also the people willing to go to war for this nation — our greatest resource in keeping this nation free and great. This becoming one with the world is bull shit. If you want to become one with the world then you can handily leave this country–there are plenty places to go. And many of them are not that bad and might suit your interest better than this country does. For instance, many people live in Mexico, Belize, Canada, Australia, etc. If you google Costa Rica you see you can buy property there and easily emigrate there. So there are plenty alternatives to the good old USA. But better have some type retirement income–you won’t be allowed to earn a living if not a citizen there.

          • Charlie says

            Well the point was that if you take the long experienced wild land fire fighters, many that post on this site, and put them on a hike where the men were and they do have a look at all the operation of the day of doom for the 19, then you will get a true view of what went down and why 19 men are needlessly dead. When we hiked the investigators Bret and Bruce of ADOSH, neither had the knowledge and experience of a wild land fire fighter. Neither had experience along the firefighting line, yet they knew wrong had been done and recommended the maximum fines for a bad operation. I mean, what else could you say, even a regular citizen could see the errors.

            But had experienced men been able to see the deadly actions taken then there would have been no awards, no heroic actions to protect structures touted, and no bally ho political cover up. Instead firm action would be taken to cure the defects that caused the deaths of those men would be taken.

            The shame is that media has gone along with the heroism BS and all the books carry on along the same lines. Only Gary Olson, RTS, Woodsman, Dr. Ted Putnam, and others well experienced on the wild land fire lines have diligently pointed out the errors. Add to that the citizens such as WTKTT and JD and others on here that show their concerns and add their diligence to help cure errors and bad actions that cost not only lives but millions in tax moneys and displaced and distraught home owners. These are the heroes along with the young men sacrificed by the fire gods.

  19. Charlie says

    I had not read Joy’s comment. We have gained much from IM and the people on it. Most we believe true to the long journey to the truth concerning the death of the 19 young lives sacrificed by the so called fire gods and their system. Much has been learned from the hundreds of thousands of gallons of fire retardant spread about the small community of Yarnell. We have learned its effects on especially the elderly and those compromised in thier health. Both Joy and I have been diligent in listening to others and seeing the many citizen health problems and the highly skewed death count since the Yarnell and Tenderfoot fire retardant drops. ( Because at least 100 residents abandoned Yarnell-Glen Isla since the fire the population dwindled to about 550 residents. Of that Joy has counted close to 150 deaths since the retardant drops–that amounts to almost a third of the population dead in the few short years since the Yarnell fire of June, 2013. Both Joy and i have since suffered respiratory and in my own case both respiratory and cardiac problems. Whether down the line this information will help people and expose the problems related to wild land fires it will depend upon whether there is proper investigation of both elements or not. Still I have to believe some will give ear to the information learned from this site and apply it to saving their crews and even considering whether civilian health problems can be related to retardant dumps near residences. Perhaps maybe even a law would come about so the population will know what secret ingredients are added to the already pollutant ammonium compounds in the retardant.

    The future of this country is bleak if you look at the infiltration of the Muslim radicals, And generally the Muslim community is quiet because obviously they understand the Koran and its commands toward infidels. In a way not far from old Christianity of the Middle Ages where people were treated much the same as Sharia Muslims do those disagreeing with their belief system.

    We in this country have become much like a Police state. About 99% of the people do not know if they have to leave the big cities because of a terrorist dirty bomb, nuclear attack, or perhaps deadly biological or gas attacks, then they will be subject to arrest if going onto public lands to camp. They do not know it is illegal to be there without purchasing a land pass and that would likely even be restricted so that people will be rounded up into camps–something like the Arapaio tent camps were in Phoenix and like we see in refuge holdings.

    At this point in time this country, hated by so many other countries, is a powder keg that is destined to explode with so many loose nuts ready to do their dirty work. It is already happening but on a small scale. When there is a lock down such as we saw under Martial Law then you hope you will have a few stores of water and food–there will be pandemonium in the big cities and people clamoring to escape like we have never before seen.

    Joy pointed out that the emplacement of these roundabouts when we know they are in error for logic are really there as slow down and future check points to deter and control the population. They are killing a number of people now, but the FEMA people must see them as a necessity. Police are already finding them handy places to get people slowed down so they can get a look at people going by. Perhaps a good thing for criminal control but it is a dangerous for the general flow of traffic. You could say someone is looking forward to the pandemonium that is bound to ensue sooner or later.

    Are some of these burnouts another experiment to see how things will go and keep people on their toes? Some things go unknown to the general population–maybe Putin knows more about the American situation and what undercover black opts is going on here than our general public. I suspect he and the Chinese both do.

    It is kind of like the UFO situation–are they alien or government projects–or perhaps both? Last night we watched a large well lighted UFO for some time. It sat in the SW for about 15 minutes then decided to move to the E for some time. Then dissappeared after a half hour or so in that spot. Not a helicopter by no means–Joy has a photo on her phone. There at Dolan Spring I pointed out these things to her. I had been watching them through my screened tent where I was camped out during the summers. She has some shots of those things shooting green lasers about and toward the ground and some other shots of these things having odd configurations like doors in the center and smaller craft about them–and I have seen these things cross the complete sky horizon to horizon in seconds and return and do the same in seconds–

    Technology or aliens? Who knows by we are told the Government in the know is 50 years ahead of the general population in technology due to security concerns. Yet with all the technology the CIA fellows will tell you there are flaws in the system and we can expect somewhere along the line that the twin tower ordeal will be overshadowed in magnitude of destruction and cost of lives.

    Perhaps Trump’s Wall, if he builds it, will provide some safety net–but then quite a few of those terrorists have made the Canadian border their favorite. One thing I agree on with Trump–look at those doing the bad–and those are in the Muslim community as far as terrorism is concerned. Those facts however are like the fire facts. See too many people, like the Bush family had big oil interests. Money, Money honey. –19 Saudi Arabians flew the planes so we attack Iraq. The American people for the most part thought it made sense and so did the Saudi’s that Bush allowed out while no other planes could fly. People are totally swayed by the propaganda–and what else is new–I can’t tell you who is playing basketball right now–but I can tell you that Trump likely did hire whores to piss on Obama’s bed in Russia. I don’t know what Trump has on Putin but with today’s technology, Trump and Putin probably watch each other going at it now and again–and where do our phones come from–mostly China. So everyone is looking at everyone else and then telling it on these Social Networks or on line.

    I suspect Americans won’t need a diet plan in the near future–our Government will again ration things out (FEMA now, et. al.) just as they did in the depression years of the 30’s. Well at least for the general public.

    But don’t worry, just be a good Boy Scout and follow their motto “BE PREPARED”.

    Joy you have done your best–sorry for you illness since the Retardant dumps–as I am for all those ill from that–someone has to be a guinea pig I suppose and we and the folks of Yarnell have served well in that capacity.

    May the Irish Gods bless you all and good old Jesus as well for you good people of the land of America. Glad Jesus turned a few gallons of water to wine and people could enjoy drinking during a ceremony. We might need some more of that sort of thing.

    • Charlie says

      There is of course a FS attitude and that is carried with many indiviuals as well that certain places should not exist–for example Yarnell being in a dangerous situation, unincorporated, and in a dense manzanita area. The thought is that these cabins, small communities and private lands in forested areas ought not be there in the first place—and so if a fire burns them out it forces people back into the big cities where things can be managed better by the powers that be. Perhaps something can be said for that if you have private land and do not keep your property cleared with the modern term defensible space. Don’t you just love these bullshit terms? Mind fuck terms is what i call a lot of it when you can’t just say keep your property area so it doesn’t burn. Defensible space ought to be where you have a machine gun mounted with a few claymores around and it may come to that some day.

      With the world the way it is I believe we need a few people living in the wild–they may be the only ones to carry on the human race when nuclear war breaks out. Strangely it seems that in India and other areas researched – has vitrified pottery and skeletons in the area that were dropped in the same fashion nuclear blasts kill people. . The radioactive residues are high in those places–that one in India had to be abandoned since the cancer incidence was too high in the area. So these were dated when the Chinese books had mentioned them and descriptions of nuclear type devices were being used by the gods–and the gods are back again–only hybrids these days. It is food for thought and archaeology not yet taught in schools. Actually there has been the use of crosses and swastikas for for many millennia before Christ and before Hitler. Just hope you are not around when the gods and their hybrids get pissed and have their hands on these killer technologies.

      How many of these nuclear power plants do we now have? The little country of Britain has 16, we have 99 with 5 in construction, and the world has 447 with 65 in construction. Can you imagine if Hitler were now bombing England with more accurate V-2’s and better explosives? He would not need a nuclear bomb–they have it already provided and that country would become a desolate nuclear waste land. That goes for the US as well with our soon to be 104. Can you imagine if these terrorists–and do not think it is not in their minds to do–figure a way to blow up a bunch of these. The southern hemisphere might one day have a surge of refugees.

      Australia has no nuclear reactors that we know of though there are plenty that want them. It might wind up being a safe haven for the English since you can go there if you are English. It does have 33% of the world’s Uranium and plenty of open land. I don’t know where the US population would go? But how many Americans even know how careless our political system has been in polluting our land–and these reactors are definitely pollution this country will regret–except the billionaires that are behind these things–and the majority of them either live out of the country in a safer area or they keep a safe area and castle to run to when the shit hits the fan.

      I can tell you that there won’t be many in that underground city below Denver unless it has to be a temporary thing being caught here.

      Most are smart like the Nazi’s. There is plan B, C, D,… and most are already in place. It might be good to own a nuclear sub and that is a strange thing that something like that might be man’s last safe haven.

      OK–these future generations have been fucked by the past one–well at least by a small percentage of their past generation. About 99% of the population has no clue.

      • Charlie says

        Considering the possibilities, putting up a wall between Mexico and US might be a bad idea. If all hell breaks loose here in the nuclear department Mexico might be the only alternative to escape a nuclear war zone—Could be we wind up being the people wanting to emigrate. I speak fluent Spanish–that is a good idea here in Arizona. Pretty soon the Hispanic population will outnumber the Anglo. That goes for all these Southwestern states that the US has acquired from Mexico.

        In my opinion Trump ought to lighten up on Mexico–they indeed are better off as neighbors not antagonists. Generally the Mexican people are good stock. What we get though is the news about the dope runner rogues there—and even they are just supplying the demand the US has for their product. And the system here is glad to oblige fighting the dope runners to the tune of billions. A better thi