Please begin Yarnell Hill Fire Chapter XXV here

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Chapter I, Chapter II, Chapter II supplement, Chapter III, Chapter IV, Chapter V, Chapter VI, Chapter VII, Chapter VIII , Chapter IX,  Chapter X, Chapter XI, Chapter XII , Chapter XIII, Chapter XIV,  Chapter XV,  Chapter XVI, Chapter XVII, Chapter XVIII, Chapter XIX, Chapter XX, Chapter XXI, Chapter XXII, Chapter XXIII and Chapter XXIV.

 

© Copyright 2017 John Dougherty, All rights Reserved. Written For: Investigative MEDIA

Comments

  1. Gary Olson says

    Dear Woodsman,

    I know you are fearless, but are you scared yet? I am, in fact…I am terrified something is very wrong and I am powerless to do anything about it. I need a hug.

    Please pray for our constituional federal representative democracy also commonly known as a Constitutional Republic. I’m afraid all hope is lost.

    Thank you, your old friend, comrade-in-arms seperated by time and space and brother from another mother. I hope to see you on the other side when this veil of tears is finally lifted.

    Sincerely,

    Gary, AKA Big G, the Jackhammer, El Oslo, Dad, Pappa, Pappy, Big G little O, El Jefe, Fuckin’ Asshole and too many others to list in this format.

    • Gary Olson says

      Oh…and one more thing. Almost everyday there is something so alarming on the MSM it makes me pee pee a little bit on myself. How is that even possible? I mean…almost every DAY!

      • Gary Olson says

        I learned a long time ago to NEVER ask the question I don’t want to know the answer to, but I am going to break that rule. Is this what you had in mind when you helped elect Our Dear Leader?

        I mean…every reasonable person suspected he was Arizona Road Lizard CRAZY, but he is exceeding everyone’s expectations…by a lot.

        Here is just one really small example that struck a chord with me because of my age.

        You do know they were shipping Australians home in body bags from our war in the former colony of French Indochina that was run Michelin to make tires while that coke whore was snortin’ lines and bangin’ models in Club 54 (or was it bangin’ lines of coke and snortin’ whores…I bet he was too fucked up most of the time to know the difference) on five (5) separate bogus deferments his daddy Morebucks paid for…right?

        What kind of an American can’t get along with the Australians for God’s sake! What comes next…declaring war on Canada? I mean…the cray fuck has already threatened to invade Mexico. I would support that if his Spawn of Satan ( Don Jr. and Eric) will lead the invasion force.

        • Gary Olson says

          I really hate to make this personal for you Woodsman, but you are my people. And I pray to God you don’t have any sons and maybe any daughters if you help that madman get another four years as the most powerful person on the planet and maybe even finish out his first four.

          From your descriptions of where you live (rural Red America), your job (working class) and your socioeconomic status…your kids are exactly who that madman will send to die in a foreign land for reasons you won’t even be able to understand once you strip the red, white and blue bunting off of his lies.

          I’m not even going down the road that there is no question in my mind he has been fully compromised by the Russian intelligence services and Putin owns him…that is too scary for me to even think about for very long…whoops, I just had a little accident and it wasn’t just a little pee pee. I pissed all over myself thinking about what Putin is going to get him to do to us…fuck me and call me Sally!

          • Gary Olson says

            Whoops, I was too shook up from pissing myself to even get my very own catch phrase I made up right,

            Fuck me silly and call me Sally! (C. G. Olson, Circa 1976)

            • Gary Olson says

              OK…I want you to stay with me for just a little while longer. YOU people voted for Trump because he is such a great businessman who makes great decisions, picks the best people, and will do the best job to make America Great Again…right?

              I want you to think about something with complete and total objectivity for just a few minutes…OK.

              President Trump selected the point man for his administration and our entire nation to be the guy who didn’t stop to think that the phone calls and text messages he is making to the fuckin’ Russian Ambassador to the United States are going to be monitored by our intelligence services in and around Washington D.C.!!!

              This same guy was a Three Star General and was in charge of military intelligence for our war of choice in Iraq for God’s sake! And then he ran the Defense Intelligence Agency, which is just one (1) of something like seventeen (17) separate U.S. Intelligence services that are all headquartered within a 50 mile radius of where the fuckin’ Russian Ambassador normally operate

              I mean…everyone who doesn’t live in a Cone Of Silence knows (thanks to Edward Snowden if for no other reason AND the movie they made about him) that the NSA listens to what everybody says whenever the fuck they want to. That is how they put those Hellfire misses from the Predator and Reaper drones down the dung burning stove pipes of those Islamic terrorists and send them them to hell while their playin’ stinky finger.with each other in shit hole backwater of the tribal lands in all of those shithole “Stan” countries like Arizonistan.

              Who the fuck doesn’t about that and you don’t have to be a former Lt. General who ran G2 for all of Iraq…you just have to go to the fuckin’ movies once in a while or whatch TV…sometimes.

              And then he gets caught…gee whiz, who the fuck could see that one coming…assures our Vice President he only talked about the weather and never even brought up, “oh yeah, and don’t worry about those sanctions because they are good as gone when we get in office…so”, so the VP goes on all of the talk shows and puts his credibility with the American people on the line…and now he can’t be sure he didn’t talk about lifting the sanctions with the fuckin’ Russian Ambassador because he can’t remember what they talked about.

              Forget about all of the reasons why this was a bad idea and how many laws were violated…and just think about how FUCKIN’ STUPID CAN THIS FLYN GUY CAN BE?

              But he can’t be stupid…that isn’t possible. They say he was the greatest intelligence officer of his generation. So…then, you have to ask yourself just how bad is his JUDGEMENT AND JUST HOW BAD IS THE JUDGEMENT OF THE MAN WHO MADE SOMEONE LIKE THAT THE POINT MAN FOR ALL U.S. INTELLIGENCE THAT IS SUPPOSED TO KEEP ALL OF US SAFE!

              What the fuck am I missing in this equation?

              • Gary Olson says

                Well…even I can recognize my Trump Tracking is NOT healthy so I am going to check out again. It’s just been raining and cold here in the Dunes so I have been watching Way to much of the lyin’ fake news MSM.

                I really do need to switch over and start drinking the Fox News(?) Kool Aid. Where cain I order that anyway? Does it come in a powder that is water soluble? Or is it more like a big tube of shit I have to squeeze into my mouth?

                I am guessing from the Woodsman’s rant about Whoopee do fuckin’ ding dong are we going to start following the Constitution now…fuck me silly and call me Sally (paraphrased) that he was referring to Obama’s use of Presidential Orders to circumvent Congress, but that is just a guess?

                So…my question is (after noting Our Dear Leaders excessive use of Presidential Orders in his first three years in office, it has been at least that long…right? Frankly, I have lost track of time) do two Constitutional Wrongs make a Constitutional Right?

                And I didn’t make it through today without making a little pee pee on myself when I heard Our Dear Leader was openly discussing the latest North Korean missle crisis in public in a busy restaurant with the Prime Minister of Japan and it looked like the New England Patriots owner Bob (if you aren’t cheating, you aren’t trying hard enough) Kraft and their bimbo’s, I mean Mrs. Abe and Our Dear Leaders bimbo.

                I wonder what level of security clearance most of the people in that restaurant have? I know what I had to go through every five years to keep my Top Secret security clearance and it was about as pleasant as I would imagine it would be to have a gerbil crawl up my ass (please note how I worded that although IF I ever did have a gerbil crawl up my ass, I would tell you because you are among my closest friends and confidants and I am off the Rez so I have nothing to hide…anymore)!

                Some of the fake news MSM call Mar-a-Largo Our Dear Leaders “estate” and nothing could be further from the truth. Anybody with an Amex card and more money than brains (unless they have an ulterior motives…say like about half of the worlds security services including those of our “friends and allies, if the fuckin’ Canadians are smart they will start tracking Our Dear Leaders calls and conversations) in addition to all of the people who pay the two hundred grand to have memberships there (at Mar-a-Largo) so whatever Mar-a-Largo is…it is not Trumps estate…it is a commercial hotel and resort with a fancy restaurant where they won’t let my people stay or even eat (sorry Woodsman) and they serve snails and fish eggs and call it food.

              • Gary Olson says

                Sooooooooo……who out there in cyber land thinks Lt. General Michael Flynn who was a three star career military lifer who lived and died for his entire adult life by a strict chain-of-command thinks he was on a one mission to interface with the fuckin’ Russians on his own accord…a loose cannon?

                And who thinks he was on a specific mission under the direct control of POTUS and was acting on and speaking on his behalf, with not only his knowledge and support, but acting under his (POTUS) direct control?

                Hmmmmmmm?

                • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

                  Reply to Gary Olson says
                  February 13, 2017 at 10:11 pm

                  >> Reply to Gary Olson…
                  >>
                  >> Sooooooooo……who out there in cyber land
                  >> thinks Lt. General Michael Flynn who was
                  >> a three star career military lifer who lived
                  >> and died for his entire adult life by a strict
                  >> chain-of-command thinks he was on a one
                  >> mission to interface with the fuckin’ Russians
                  >> on his own accord…a loose cannon?

                  And just HOURS after the man he and his boss think was born in Kenya actually ‘announced’ the ‘sanctions’ for the known ‘help’ another country gave in getting them elected?

                  Hmmmm…. let me see…

                  ( Hand NOT raised ).

                  >> And who thinks he was on a specific mission
                  >> under the direct control of POTUS and was
                  >> acting on and speaking on his behalf, with not
                  >> only his knowledge and support, but acting
                  >> under his (POTUS) direct control?

                  ( Hand raised ).

                  And if anyone also thinks ( tonight ) that the ‘resignation’ negotiations that were obviously going on all today didn’t include some ‘promise’ of a PARDON for Flynn if/when he is arrested for violating the Logan Act and/or arrested for outright TREASON…

                  …then ( as I said in my other post above )… I have some Mar-A-Lago ski-lift tickets to sell you.

                  I actually have access to some actual Donald Dumpster ‘supporters’… and even THEY have confided they have had to change their underwear many times recently…

                  ….and some of those underwear changes were when they were actually watching Saturday Night Live.

                  It’s nice to see SNL ‘relevant’ again.

              • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

                Reply to Gary Olson post on
                February 13, 2017 at 7:17 am

                >> Gary Olson said…
                >>
                >> OK…I want you to stay with me for just a little
                >> while longer. YOU people voted for Trump
                >> because he is such a great businessman who
                >> makes great decisions, picks the best people,
                >> and will do the best job to make America Great
                >> Again…right?
                >>
                >> I want you to think about something with complete
                >> and total objectivity for just a few minutes…OK.
                >>
                >> President Trump selected the point man for his
                >> administration and our entire nation to be the guy
                >> who didn’t stop to think that the phone calls and
                >> text messages he is making to the fuckin’ Russian
                >> Ambassador to the United States are going to be
                >> monitored by our intelligence services in and
                >> around Washington D.C.!!!
                >>
                >> What the fuck am I missing in this equation?

                Of course he ‘stopped and thought about it’.

                For anyone who thinks a former head of the Defense Intelligence Agency didn’t know there was a high likelihood that anything he might have said over ANY telephone line that gets answered inside the US Russian Embassy in Washington would NOT be ‘fully recorded’ by BOTH the US and the Russian Intelligence services… then I have some ski lift tickets to sell you for Mar-A-Lago.

                So now that Flynn has been thrown under the bus just like Donald Dumpster flushes his own undocumented workers down the toilet there at ‘Mar-A-Lago’ on a regular basis… there really is only one big question remaining.

                WHY did Flynn still feel like it was okay to jump on a most-likely-to-be-recorded telephone line anyway, and tell the Russians not to ‘worry’ about the Obama sanctions put in place for Russia knowingly ‘helping’ the Dumpster win the election?

                Gee….. I dunno… let’s take some ‘guesses’.

                1. Maybe because the person you helped get elected and who has now elevated your failed career as an intelligence officer to the most important ‘intelligence’ assignment in this country simply TOLD you to make the call(s) just hours after the guy who you BOTH think was born in Kenya put the sanctions into place?

                2. ( This is actually part of #1 ) Maybe because the guy TELLING you to make the calls and who is so stupid that he thinks you can’t even trace hackers unless you catch them in act is also now the same guy who can PARDON you if any shit hits the fan like you going on trial for violations of the Logan Act and/or actual TREASON charges? ( Both of which could still happen if Flynn doesn’t wander over to Arlington and eat his gun ) ?

                3. ( This is long shot… but also possible ) Maybe because, as just a Director of ONE of the Intelligence agencies ( the DIA )… you THOUGHT that no other agency had ‘cracked’ the telecom at the Russian embassy… and so you still THOUGHT that YOUR call to the Russian ambassador would NOT be ‘recorded’… but since you were just DIA and not NSA you had no idea that you were WRONG… and that every word you would say WOULD be recorded by the NSA?

                SIDENOTE: The DIA guys/gals are good… but as compared to the guys/gals over at the NSA… the DIA folks might as well consider themselves as employees at Radio Shack.

                4. ( This is actually part of #3 ) Maybe that along with only THINKING you were ‘safe’ to make the call ( as just a DIA flunkee Director and not a real NSA guy )… you also then didn’t realize that the narcissistic sociopath that you tied your wagon to when you started the “Lock Her Up” chant at his convention would then also FIRE the ‘acting Attorney General’… who had already been ADVISED of the content of your telephone conversations with the Russian Ambassador?

                Not exactly the ‘someone’ you want suddenly ‘cut loose’ by your 13-year-old-trapped-in-a-71-and-a-half-year-old-body boss and now free to ‘back-channel’ the MSM, eh?

                5. ( Maybe this is actually the simplest explanation ).
                He ( Flynn ) just didn’t care. His new chance to create this new ‘world order’ that he and Steve Bannon and Bannon’s own ‘Reichland Minister of Information’ Stephen Miller have beenworking so hard on was just too much of a driving force for Flynn to stop and worry about pesky crap like ‘laws’ and whatnot.

                Flynn is ( and has been for some time ) simply ‘out there’.

                It’s the reason he was forced to RESIGN as Defense Intelligence Director in the first place, which then led him to fire up his own ‘Global Intelligence’ company with his own bat-crap crazy son and go to work for BOTH the Turkish government AND the Russians. ( Putins version of FOX NEWS, RT Television, etc. ).

                In his waning days at DIA… Flynn’s ‘intelligence assesments’ were known to contain nothing but what his colleagues started to call ‘Flynn Facts’.

                As in… delusions that Flynn was trying to pawn off as ‘facts’.

                It reached the point where his ‘Intelligence Assesments’ were nothing but reprints of the same bat-shit crazy stuff Steve Bannon was printing on a daily basis over at ‘Breitbart’.

                Anyway… all of the above are just ‘educated guesses’… but you were wondering what you might be ‘missing’… so there are just some ‘suggestions’ to think about.

                The karma is building fast.

                Even faster than I thought it would.

                And we all know that when you base a campaign on nothing but racism, bigotry and hatred… the ‘karma’ most often turns out to be a WHOPPING ( non-gender specific, of course ) bitch.

                • Gary Olson says

                  I for one have my hand raised to pardon General Flynn. Something made him go off the rails, but he is a true American hero and patriot. I personally think he let his very well earned hatred of Islamic terrorists cloud his judgement.

                  Four Star General Barry McCaffrey, who has been critical of General Flynn has described his military intelligence service and that of special operations commander General Stanley McChrystal as being a very effective and particularly deadly team who destroyed so many of our enemies in both Iraq and Afghanistan.

                  We all owe General Flynn our deepest respect and gratitude for his stellar military service to our nation. His subsequent civilian service…not so much.

                  • Gary Olson says

                    In other words, I think General Flynn was prepared to sell out the Crimea and the rest of Ukraine, Georgia, Moldova and the entire Balkan Pennisula in addition to perhaps Poland and the Baltic countries of Estonia, Latvia and Lithuania and maybe even Finland in exchange for an alliance with the white, Christian radical Islamic hating and powerful nuclear armed Russian Federation led by a stone cold killer of epic proportions…Vladimir Putin.

                    Would it have been worth it for U.S. Who the fuck knows, that is way over my pay grade?

                    But I have got to admit, it does sound a little crazy when I add up what I think Flynn was going to give up to buy the help of that rat faced bastard Putin. Just sayin….

                    • says

                      As I am watching the current news about Flynn and Trump and the role of investigative journalists in this issue I am wondering what it will take to bring about the whole truth of the Yarnell Hill Fire?
                      Will key people such as Eric Panabaker,
                      blue Ridge hotshots,Brendan (doughnut) and others not interviewed by the investigations be subpoenaed to testify and answer important questions?

                    • Gary Olson says

                      Unfortunately Diane, I think I can say without fear of being guilty of using hyperbole that no one, other than a few of us who participate here are not only comfortable, but completely happy with the status quo.

                      And the status quo is essentially the following;

                      “The Yarnell Hill Fire burned with the intensity and unpredictability that was impossible to predict in advance and therefore the deaths that resulted from this extreme fire behavior were a tragic accident that was impossible to prevent.

                      No one who was involved in the suppression efforts of the Yarnell Hill Fire, from either on the Granite Mountain Hotshots, actual fire overhead team or the agencies responsible for these suppression efforts did anything wrong, nor was there anything they could have done differently to foresee or prevent this terrible tragedy.”

                      The following is a partial list of those who support the preceding statement.

                      1. Arizona State Division of Forestry

                      2. Governor of Arizona

                      3. Arizona State Legislature

                      4. Almost every citizen of Arizona and every other State of Arizona employee or official led by Senator Karen Fann and Speaker Shit For Brains Tobin.

                      5. Main Stream Media led by the Arizona Republic, Prescott Courier and Arizona television stations.

                      6. Yavapai Couty officials led by the Sheriff’s Office, Cental Yavapai Fire Department and the County Board of Supervisors and almost every county resident.

                      7. The City of Prescott Mayor, City Council , City Manager
                      City Attorney, City Fire Department and almost all citizens of the city.

                      8. The U.S. Forest Service, the Bureau of Land Management, everyone else in the USDA, the USDI and all of their attorneys, officials, managers and all other employees plus everyone else who works for the federal government as either an employee or in an elected official.

                      9. All family members of the 19 Granite Mountain Hotshots who were burned alive and coughed up their own burning lung tissue so hard they detached their tongues from the back of their mouths with the exception of Mrs. McKee who was taken advantage of and/or cheated by almost everyone who was charged with finding some way to help or mitigate the resulting family disaster which included but was not limited to, the Arizona 100 Club, attorney Alex Vakula, City of Prescott officials and the State of Arizona officials, the Arizona Court system and a bunch of other people, all of whom I, Gary L. Olson personally think are dirty low down worthless bags of swine excrement who should all be tarred and feather and then run out of the state on a rail and a bunch of other really bad and disgusting things I am to ashamed to type out in this format and all of you know I have not found anything before now that has ashamed me so it must be really, really, really bad.

                      Everyone else who has any power or influence in Prescott, Yavapai County, the State of Arizona or the federal government and a bunch of other people but I am tired of this whole 1 finger typing thing.

                      I am holding out for the best Apple computer money can buy with all related peripherals, attachments, and bells and whistles because I am so sick and tired of constantly spending an inordinate amount of time fuckin’ around with PC’s.

                      So…if you have four thousand dollars or any part thereof, you want to contribute to my, “Buy Gary a bitchin’ (non gender specific) Apple Computer” please email me at garylolson@yahoo.com.

                      If on the other hand, you are an attorney representing the Arizona 100 Club, Prescott Arizona attorney Alex Vakula, or any one else I may have offended please call me at 1-800-EAT-SHIT to discuss terms of a settlement.

                      Thank You

                      Gary

                      P.S., Yes you are correct. It rained today and was cold so I have just been hangin’ out. So, you know…fuck it. But at least I am not on Trump Watch tonight, it’s someone else’s turn but as usual I do appreciate WTKTT filling in so many blanks. Now…if I could just get him and the Woodsman off their dead asses my book project might get somewhere.

                    • Gary Olson says

                      Diane,

                      Do you think I am an incredibly lonely, bored and pathetic person so l have to deliberately try to provoke people to fuck with me just so I have someone to interact with?

                      I think we know each other well enough and we are close enough you can and will tell me the truth. Do you think I am a sad person?

                    • Gary Olson says

                      Oh…and one more thing. LinkIn ask me again a couple of days ago if I wanted to link with Mrs. McKee’s dead son.

                      Which really pissed me off all over again. Actually that is hyperbole…it just made me feel sad.

                    • Gary Olson says

                      Oh…and one more thing. What I think is happening with LinkedIn, is that when I signed up with them, I must have given them authorization to send crawler sniffer bots inside my computer’s hard drive to match names they find there with the same names registered with their service.

                      So it is all done automatically with one computer communicating with another and comparing their files. Kind of spooky…huh?

                      I think this will periodically continue until a person who is authorized to do so…tells LinkedIn that Grant McKee was burned alive on the Yarnell Hill Fire due to the extreme incompetence of those whose
                      duty and responsibility it was to properly recruit, train, manage, supervise and lead him into situations that are frequently managed by Chaos where the SNAFU and FUBAR, which are further complicated and made even more challenging and dangerous by REMF.

                      But the Granite Mountain Hotshot management tea catastrophically failed in the most basic task of leading a hotshot crew into battle because all of the problems I listed above are present to varying degrees on every large complex campaign wildfire…and hotshots are just expected to deal with them while still fighting fire aggressively but providing for safety first.

                      The only thing wrong with my theory about how LinkedIn works, is that their computer keeps trying to link me with people like Jenna Jameson, Mia Malcova and Alexis Texas?
                      And I don’t even know who these people are, much less personally know them, or know of them, so…

    • Gary Olson says

      Fuck me silly and call me Sally…this tablet misspelled El Oso. This auto correct on this iPad is driving me fuckin’ crazy…and I don’t have far to go. Actually…typing with one finger on this fuckin’ thing is about to drive me crazy for keeps.

      I am actually a pretty good typist on a regular computer but mine crapped out a few months ago (yes…I told you all about it) because I took a typing class at the Santa Fe Community College (but I dropped out of class when I hit 30 words per minute) when I I went from being a hotshot crew boss to an office worker…talk about a hard fuckin’ transition,

      I never was worth a shit as an office worker (even in my second career) and I think everybody knew that about me but they felt sorry for me and I was pretty good in the field so they let me slide on the office work part.

      The USFS isn’t worth a flyin’ fuck in general but almost all FIRE people (including most of those who don’t work for the USFS, except for those dipshits they call Battalion Chiefs…right Woodsman) are the salt of the earth! Even if you fuckers still haven’t told me what the fuck happened to our crew on the YHF.

      • says

        Gary,
        You asked if i thought you are a lonely,pathetic person that provokes others to interact with you and do I think you are a sad person.
        My answer, since you asked is that you ,along with many of us who are retired and aging, are searching for relevance in your life where you can bring your experience to make a difference.
        You have helped me understand what the hotshots experienced as they were dying–I might have concluded that they died very quickly from noxious gases and superheated air without your information. It spotlights the enormity of the wrong done to the hotshots and the need to find justice for them. You seem committed to make this right for them in spite of all the roadblocks.

        • says

          Perhaps I am naive in my thinking but it seems to me that what people want most regarding the Yarnell Hill Fire is the truth pure and simple— continued attempts to brush it under the rug is an insult to the men that died.

          • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

            Reply to Diane Lomas post on February 16, 2017 at 1:07 pm

            >> Diane Lomas said…
            >>
            >> Perhaps I am naive in my thinking but it seems to me that
            >> what people want most regarding the Yarnell Hill Fire is the
            >> truth pure and simple

            Some ‘people’ still do… but ( as Gary was pointing out ) some ‘people’ do not… and they NEVER have ( wanted to know the truth ).

            Knowing EXACTLY what happened to cause a group of men who were supposed to be highly trained wildland firefighters to ignore all the established rules of their own profession and die horribly on the floor of an explosive fuel-filled blind box canyon still represents the BEST way to try, as much as humanly possible, to make sure nothing similar ever happens again.

            But first… you have to WANT to make sure ( as much as humanly possible ) that it never happens again.

            If you really don’t even CARE if it ever happens again… then you also don’t care what really happened in Yarnell.

            The moniker I have always used to participate in this public discussion is still exactly the way I feel about it.

            I ( for one ) still “Want To Know The Truth’.

            There are still LIVES at stake.

            “All truths are easy to understand once they are discovered.
            The POINT is to DISCOVER them.”
            Galileo Galilei

            “Truths and roses both have thorns about them… but neither should ever be avoided,”
            Henry David Thoreau

            “Truth will always be truth, regardless of lack of understanding, disbelief or ignorance.”
            W. Clement Stone

            >> Diane Lomas also said…
            >>
            >> continued attempts to brush it under the rug is
            >> an insult to the men that died.

            Totally agree.

            Anyone who has either already lied or is still withholding information about what really happened in Yarnell on Sunday, June 30, 2013… should be ashamed of themselves.

              • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

                There is no ‘expiration date’ for ‘Wanting To Know The Truth’ about what really happened in Yarnell on June 30, 2013.

                As long as people are being asked to ‘suit up’ and go trapsing into the boondock to fight wildland fires… it will ALWAYS remain important to know EXACTLY how the leadership decisions and failures in Yarnell contributed to so many lives being lost… and WHY so many young men, who had put their faith in that same ‘leadership’, never got to live out the rest of their lives.

        • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

          Reply to Diane Lomas post on February 15, 2017 at 3:50 pm

          >> Diane Lomas said…
          >>
          >> You have helped me understand what the hotshots experienced
          >> as they were dying–I might have concluded that they died very
          >> quickly from noxious gases and superheated air without
          >> your information. It spotlights the enormity of the wrong done
          >> to the hotshots and the need to find justice for them.

          ‘Died very quickly’ is relative.

          It depends on what your definition of ‘very quickly’ is.

          Some people ( firefighters included ) think that ‘dying from the inhalation of noxious gases and/or superheated air’ is like some kind of ‘light switch’.

          That the moment your lungs fill with what is going to kill you… you simply ‘turn off’ like a light switch.

          That is not the case ( as Gary pointed out above and as the Yarnell-related autopsy reports confirm ).

          Just take the case of ‘drowning’.

          Same thing. Most people think that when your lungs fill with the water that is going to now kill you… that you simply ‘turn off’ like a light switch.

          Again… that is NOT the case.

          Even people who have ‘come back from the dead’ in drowning related incidents have verified that you remain fully conscious while you witness your own brain-stem survival functions kick in to try and save your life and ‘expel’ whatever it is in your lungs that is trying to kill you.

          And it’s not pretty.

          The published autopsy reports related to the tragedy in Yarnell on June 30, 2013, should be REQUIRED READING for anyone who wants to be a wildland firefighter.

          Indeed… when you take your ‘Shelter Training’ course… you should be REQUIRED to read those autopsy reports… every single word of them.

          The life that gets saved by doing that might be your own.

          I remember when I was being taught to drive a car.

          The ‘Drivers Education’ course at my high school REQUIRED us to watch a movie called ‘Mechanized Death’.

          It was not pretty… and that was the point.

          There was a ‘waiver form’ you could get signed by your parents if you did NOT want to watch this ‘movie’ about what can happen to the human body in various sorts of car accidents… but I have always been GLAD I chose to watch this movie. I believe it has made me a safer driver for my whole life.

          Anyone who participates in any activity where YOUR attention to SAFETY is the only thing that can prevent terrible things from happening to you and/or others SHOULD be made fully aware of what CAN happen if you IGNORE those ‘safety rules’.

          I suppose that even if wildland firefighter trainees can/should be REQUIRED to read those autopsy reports… there would still have to be some kind of ‘waiver form’ so that those who think they are ‘too delicate’ to read such a thing have a way to ‘opt out’… and that’s okay… but for most ‘trainees’ it would certainly behoove them to read those autopsy reports and KNOW what CAN happen if they ever ignore the rules of their profession.

          I believe it would make them ‘safer drivers’ out on the firelines.

  2. WantsToKnowTheTruth says

    **
    ** THE ACTUAL ‘PETITION FOR REVIEW’ FILED WITH THE ARIZONA SUPREME COURT
    ** REGARDING GRANT MCKEE’S ‘WRONGFUL DEATH’ LAWSUIT.

    Followup to the post directly below, which contains just a TEXT version of the document filed with the Arizona Supreme Court.

    InvestigativeMEDIA has now run an article on this filing….

    InvestigativeMEDIA
    Article Title: Mother of deceased Granite Mountain Hotshot firefighter files petition with Arizona Supreme Court
    Published: February 4, 2017 – By John Dougherty
    http://www.investigativemedia.com/mother-of-deceased-granite-mountain-hotshot-firefighter-files-petition-with-arizona-supreme-court/

    There is a link in the article to a copy of the ACTUAL ( PDF ) document that was filed with the Arizona Supreme Court.

    A direct link to that copy of the ACTUAL document is as follows…

    http://www.investigativemedia.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/02/PetitionforReview.pdf

  3. WantsToKnowTheTruth says

    **
    ** THE ACTUAL ‘PETITION FOR REVIEW’ FILED WITH THE ARIZONA SUPREME COURT
    ** REGARDING GRANT MCKEE’S ‘WRONGFUL DEATH’ LAWSUIT.

    Below is a TEXT version of the actual ‘Petition for Review’ that has now been officially filed with the Arizona Supreme Court regarding the ‘wrongful death’ lawsuit being brought on behalf of deceased Granite Mountain Hotshot Grant McKee. The suit is being legally filed on Grant Mckee’s behalf by his biological mother, Marcia McKee.

    The document is now a PUBLIC document and can be viewed by anyone with a valid PACER ( Public Access To Court Records ) account… but for those who don’t have one… a TEXT version of the complete ‘Petition for Review’ is now included below.

    NOTE: This TEXT version of the document is being shown here with the complete and full ‘permission’ of Marcia McKee herself.

    There were two EXHIBITS also included in this ‘Petition for Review’ submitted to the Arizona Supreme Court. Those lengthy EXHIBITS are simply copies of other already-existing PUBLIC documents and this TEXT version of the ‘Petition’ just ‘summarizes’ those documents.

    The document gives at least FOUR reasons WHY the Arizona Supreme Court should rule that the Arizona Appeals Court has erred in their recent decision to NOT allow this ‘wrongful death’ lawsuit to proceed to trial.

    Those FOUR reasons are ‘summarized’ in the very first paragraphs of the ‘Petition’.

    Here are those ‘summations’ ( in order ) from the top of the document…

    ——————————————————————————–
    PETITION FOR REVIEW

    The Court should grant the petition because the Court of Appeals’ Opinion conflicts
    with a 2006 Opinion by Division Two finding no waiver of a widow’s right to sue an
    employer for wrongful death of her employee husband, although the widow was entitled to
    workers’-compensation death benefits—and had actually applied for them. MA Cab
    Service, Inc. v. Industrial Comm ‘n, 213 Ariz. 342 (App. 2006).

    ———————————————————————————

    This is exactly what ‘State Supreme Courts’ are FOR.

    Resolve ‘conflicts of justice’ being delivered by other courts in the State.

    ‘Division One’ of the Arizona Court of Appeals has just recently ruled AGAINST Marcia McKee when the ‘other’ Division ( Division Two ) of the same damn Appeals Court ruled in the exact opposite way in an almost identical case that THEY ‘reviewed’.

    So now the Arizona Supreme Court has to decided WHICH of their own two ‘Court of Appeals’ Divisions might have had their heads up their asses.

    In other words… ‘Division One’ of the Appeals Court didn’t seem to give a damn what the OTHER ‘Division’ of the same Arizona Appeals Court had ALREADY decided in a previous case… and if Marcia McKee’s case had simply been heard by that ‘other Division’ of the same damn Court then it would probably already be headed back to TRIAL, as it should.

    So yea… time for the ‘Supremes’ in Arizona to weigh in.

    Here are the OTHER ‘summaries’ at the top of the document…

    ———————————————————————————
    Second, another recurring issue of statewide importance supporting the petition’s grant is Division One’s approval of Intergovernmental Agreements between cities and the State without the required, specific city approval of the duration of the IGAs, in violation of A.R.S. 11-952(F)’s plain words.
    ———————————————————————————

    This is probably the most complicated ‘legal’ argument still ‘attached’ to this case and it has to do with ‘Intergovernmental Agreements’ ( IGAs ) like the one that was ( supposedly ) in place between The City of Prescott ( the owners of the Granite Mountain Hotshots ) and Arizona Forestry ( the owners of the 2013 Yarnell Hill Fire and one of the ‘Employers’ involved on the day the 19 GM Hotshots died ). See the full document below for the ongoing ‘arguments’ here about IGAs.

    ———————————————————————————
    Third, Division One failed to allow jury resolution of the employer’s “willful misconduct,” a purely fact-based defense to employer immunity
    ———————————————————————————-

    This is another BIG one… and another one of the ‘issues’ that can now ONLY be decided by the State ‘Supreme Court’.

    It’s the CATCH-22 issue whereby the Arizona State Constitution has ‘definitions’ in it about when someone is allowed to at least have their ‘day in court’ over a ‘wrongful death’ allegation that are in complete CONTRADICTION with each other.

    When you have these kinds of blatant CONTRADICTIONS in a ‘State Constitution’… only a State Supreme Court can ‘decide’ the ‘issues’.

    This is the part of the ‘Petition’ that also has the potential to go all the way up to the actual United States Supreme Court.

    Only SOME States have these kinds of ‘contradictions’ regarding ‘wrongful death’ suits… and that is what the US Supreme Court is FOR. Only THEY can decide if some States in the Union should be allowed to be doing things one way… while others abridge their US/State citizens rights. ( See “Equal Justice and Protection Under the Law’ in the US Constitution ( Bill of Rights ).

    ———————————————————————————-
    Fourth, Division One has limited the intentional-infliction-of-emotional-distress tort in
    ways that will adversely affect tort litigants and cases across Arizona

    ———————————————————————————-

    This is the ‘issue’ that still includes the fact that there is clear evidence of a potential ‘coverup’ on the part of Arizona Forestry ( and US Forestry ) in the aftermath of the Yarnell tragedy, the details of which can ONLY be fully known if/when this case is ALLOWED to PROCEED.

    ** THE ‘TEXT’ VERSION OF THE ‘PETITION’…

    Due to LENGTH… it will take a couple of ‘Replies’ ( below ) to display the entire document.

    So here it is ( starting with the next ‘Reply’ )…

    • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

      KNAPP & ROBERTS, P.C.
      8777 North Gainey Center Drive, Suite 165
      Scottsdale, Arizona 85258, (480) 991-7677
      David L. Abney, Esq. (009001) — abney (at) krattorneys.com
      Attorneys for Petitioners / Plaintiffs / Appellants

      IN THE SUPREME COURT STATE OF ARIZONA

      Case No.: ( TBA )

      Petitioners / Plaintiffs / Appellants

      MARCIA McKEE, the surviving mother of
      GRANT QUINN McKEE, both individually
      and on behalf of all statutory beneficiaries
      of GRANT QUINN McKEE, deceased,

      v.

      Respondents / Defendants / Appellees.

      STATE OF ARIZONA, a public entity; and
      the ARIZONA STATE FORESTRY
      DIVISION, apublic entity,

      Arizona Court of Appeals, Div. One
      Case No. 1 CA-CV 15-0800

      Maricopa County Superior Court
      CV 2014-009068, CV 2014-009069 and
      CV 2014-009070 (consolidated)
      Hon. J. Richard Gama

      PETITION FOR REVIEW

      The Court should grant the petition because the Court of Appeals’ Opinion conflicts with a 2006 Opinion by Division Two finding no waiver of a widow’s right to sue an employer for wrongful death of her employee husband, although the widow was entitled to workers’ compensation death benefits—and had actually applied for them. MA Cab Service, Inc. v. Industrial Comm ‘n, 213 Ariz. 342 (App. 2006).

      Second, another recurring issue of statewide importance supporting the petition’s grant is Division One’s approval of Intergovernmental Agreements between cities and the State without the required, specific city approval of the duration of the IGAs, in violation of A.R.S. 11-952(F)’s plain words. Third, Division One failed to allow jury resolution of the employer’s “willful misconduct,” a purely fact-based defense to employer immunity. Fourth, Division One has limited the intentional-infliction-of-emotional-distress tort in ways that will adversely affect tort litigants and cases across Arizona

      The Four Issues

      Intergovernmental Agreement (“IGA”). An Arizona city can make an IGA with the State turning one of its firefighters into a temporary State employee. But to do that, the city must first pass an ordinance or resolution “approving” the IGA’s “duration.” A.R.S 11-952(F). If the city fails to do that, the IGA cannot even “be filed or become effective.” Id.

      But Prescott passed no ordinance approving the purported IGA’s duration. Thus, Grant McKee was never a State employee and the State has no employer-based immunity from suit under A.R.S. 23-1022(A). Did the trial court and Court of Appeals err by finding the State had employer immunity under A.R.S. 23-1022(A)?

      Willful misconduct. The State’s misconduct killed Grant and his 18 Hot Shot companions. Marcia McKee alleged—and the Industrial Commission of Arizona found— that the State Forestry Division had committed willful misconduct. See Complaint 232-36 and Exh. 2. Should the jury have been allowed to determine that the State’s conduct was willful misconduct nullifying any A.R.S. 23-1022(A) immunity?

      Waiver. Grant McKee was an adult not dependent on his mother for support; she was not dependent on him for support. Neither asked for nor accepted any workers’ compensation benefits. Thus, no waiver occurred of Marcia’s A.R.S. 12-611 right to sue the State for causing her son’s wrongful death. Did the trial court and Court of Appeals err by finding waiver and approving immunity under A.R.S. 23-1022(A)?

      Intentional infliction of emotional distress. Is Marcia McKee entitled to assert claims for intentional infliction of emotional distress arising: (1) from the State causing her son to suffer a horrendous death or (2) from the State’s cover-up of its wrongdoing?

      ( Continued next ‘Reply’ )

    • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

      1. This Court should grant review because properly interpreting IGAs is a matter of statewide importance.

      The Court of Appeals found immunity because it held that a purported IGA between Prescott and the State transformed Grant from a Prescott firefighter into a temporary State employee. After all, a public agency’s employee who works under another public agency’s jurisdiction or control because of an IGA is deemed to be an employee of both agencies under the workers’ compensation immunity provisions. A.R.S. 23-1022(D).

      But grant of immunity to the State arose from misreading the plain words of A.R.S. 11-952(F), which provide that:

      Appropriate action by ordinance or resolution or otherwise pursuant to the laws applicable to the governing bodies of the participating agencies approving or extending the duration of the agreement or contract shall be necessary before any such agreement, contract or extension may be filed or become effective.

      Prescott did pass a resolution approving the IGA, under the IGA-approval statute, A.R.S. 11-952(A) (“[T]wo or more public agencies . . . may enter into agreements with one another for joint or cooperative action.”). This is the Prescott resolution:

      —————————————————————————————-
      RESOLUTION NO. 2952

      A RESOLUTION OF THE MAYOR AND COUNCIL OF THE CITY OF PRESCOTT, YAVAPAI COUNTY, ARIZONA, AUTHORIZING THE CITY OF PRESCOTT TO ENTER INTO AN INTERGOVERNMENTAL AGREEMENT WITH THE ARIZONA STATE LAND DEPARTMENT – FIRE MANAGEMENT DIVISION FOR A COOPERATIVE AGREEMENT FOR FIRES ON FOREST, WILD AND AGRICULTURAL LANDS, AND AUTHORIZING THE MAYOR AND STAFF TO TAKE ANY AND ALL STEPS NECESSARY TO ACCOMPLISH THE ABOVE,

      WHEREAS, the parties hereto are empowered to enter Into cooperative intergovernmental agreements pursuant to ARS Section 37-623(E) for the prevention and suppression of wildfires on forest, wIld and agricultural lands; and

      WHEREAS, the CIly of Prescott operates a fire department within the corporate limits of the City of Prescott, and In close proximity to forest, wild and agricultural lands; and

      WHEREAS, It would be to the benefit of the citizens of Prescott and the citizens of the community for the City of Rescott to enter Into a cooperative intergovernmental agreement for the prevention and suppression of wfidfires on forest, wild and agricultural lands with the State Forester.

      NOW, THEREFORE, BE IT RESOLVED BY THE MAYOR AND COUNCIL OF THE CITY OF PRESCOTT AS FOLLOWS:

      SECTION 1. THAT, the City of Prescott hereby approves the Intergovernmental Agreement with the Arizona State Land Department – Fire Management Division for the prevention and suppression of wildfires on forest, wild and agrioultural lands, attached hereto as Exhibit “A”.

      SECTION 2, THAT, the Mayor and Staff we hereby authorized to execute the attached Intergovernmental Agreement and to take any and all steps deemed necessary to accomplish the above.

      PASSED, APPROVED AND ADOPTED by the Mayor and Council of the City of Prescott. Arizona, this 11th day of MARCH 1997.

      Signed: PAUL S. DALY, Mayor

      ATTEST:
      Signed: JUDY CARSON, Acting City Clerk

      APPROVED AS TO FORM:
      Signed: JOHN R. MOFFITT, City Attorney

      ——————————————————————————————

      But although Prescott approved the IGA, it never passed any ordinance or resolution “approving or extending the duration of the agreement.” A.R.S. 11-952(F). Thus, the IGA could not be “filed or become effective.” Id.

      Despite the statute’s actual words, the Court of Appeals held that “approving or extending the duration of the agreement” did not mean approving the duration of the agreement or extending the duration of the agreement, but instead meant “approving (1) the agreement, or (2) the duration of any extension of the agreement.” Opinion at 12.

      That rewriting of A.R.S. 11-952(F): (1) adds more to the statute than exists within it; (2) nullifies the need for specific action approving or extending the duration of an IGA before it can be filed or become effective; (3) violates the plain-meaning rule; and (4) ignores English grammar and usage. The Court of Appeals has effectively re-drafted the statute’s key phrase by adding two commas, changing the meaning of that phrase from its original “approving or extending the duration of the agreement” to “approving, or extending the duration of, the agreement.”

      In statutes, commas are not mere ornaments. In Braden, for example, this Court found the State immune from APSA claims based on one missing comma. Estate of Braden ex rel. Gabaldon v. State, 228 Ariz. 323, 326 12 (2011) (“The absence of a comma after the phrase ‘labor union’ makes a difference.”). “The plain meaning of a statute,” after all, “will typicalIy heed the commands of its punctuation.” Pawn 1st, L.L.C. v. City of Phoenix, 231 Ariz. 309, 311 16 (App. 2013).

      The two commas the Court of Appeals effectively added to the statute are not grammatically optional. Instead, adding them fundamentally changes the meaning. The Court of Appeals should have refused to rework the statute. See Int’l Chiropractors Ass’n v. N.M. Bd. of Chiro. Examiners, 323 P.3d 914, 923 (N.M. App. 2013) (Court declines invitation to “re-punctuate” a statute to add two commas that would “re-write” the statute to comport with its opinion on how the statute should be interpreted.).

      After all, there already is a statute dealing with approving an IGA. A.R.S. 11-952(A) (“two or more public agencies . . . may enter into agreements”). So there is no need to re-punctuate the statute dealing with approving or extending an IGA’s duration to turn it into yet another stature dealing with approving an IGA. As this Court has instructed, every phrase, clause, and sentence of a statute must be given meaning so no part will be redundant. Deer Valley Unified Sch. Dist. No. 97 v. Houser, 214 Ariz. 293, 295 8 (2007). Division One’s rewrite, however, creates a redundancy out of whole cloth.

      This Court should grant review since a strict, narrow interpretation of A.R.S. 11-952(F) is vital for cities and fire departments across Arizona because of the importance of the duration of IGAs. They should be as long as needed, and no longer. After all, IGAs alter the sovereign, legal, and financial rights: (1) of the State, (2) of local governing authorities with which the State is trying to make IGAs, and (3) of local employees and their families and loved ones.

      The State Forestry Division, which operates what amounts to a core skeleton staff depends on IGAs to obtain the innumerable firefighters needed to actually handle its vital wildfire containment efforts. Making sure there is proper approval of the duration of IGAs is thus a matter of statewide interest and importance supporting grant of this petition.

      ( Continued next ‘Reply’ )…

    • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

      2. This Court should grant review because whether an employer engaged in “willful misconduct” is an issue reserved for Arizona juries.

      Even if the purported IGA were valid—which it is not—under A.R.S. 23-1022(A), if an employer’s willful misconduct causes an employee’s injury, and the misconduct indicates willful disregard of the employee’s life, limb, or bodily safety, “the injured employee may either claim compensation or maintain an action at law for damages against the person or entity alleged to have engaged in the willful misconduct.” A.R.S. 23-1022(B) explains that: “Willful misconduct” in this context means “an act done knowingly and purposely with the direct object of injuring another.”

      The Opinion stated the Complaint “does not allege these acts were done knowingly and purposely with the direct object of injuring the firefighters.” Opinion 19. But Marcia specifically alleged the State committed “willful misconduct.” Complaint 236.

      Moreover, Marcia was not alone in alleging “willful misconduct.” The Industrial Commission of Arizona (“ICA”) investigated this disaster and officially found—as the Complaint alleged—that the State’s failure to protect the firefighters had caused their deaths and was not just “serious” misconduct, but misconduct that was both “serious” and “willful Complaint 232-35, 246. The ICA not only found willful and serious misconduct, it imposed an unprecedented penalty against the State Forestry Division of $25,000 for each firefighter it killed. A copy of the ICA ‘s “Citation and Notice of Penalty”—a public record subject to judicial notice—is attached as Exh. 2.

      As far as “willful misconduct” under A.R.S. 23-1022(A), Marcia has the right to have the jury decide intent, which does not need to be established by direct proof, and which the jury may determine and infer from all the facts and evidence. State v. Quatsling, 24 Ariz. App. 105, 108 (1975). See Harris v. Itzhaki, 183 F.3d 1043, 1051 (9th Ci r. 1999) (Intent “should be left to the jury.”). Here, reasonable jurors could conclude just what the ICA found, that the State’s conduct was “serious” and “willful.” For instance:

      – At about 1:00 p.m. on June 30, 2013, the Division Zulu Supervisor abandoned the Hotshots to their fate, fled to the incident command post, and never returned. Complaint at 164-68 (IR 1). Reasonable jurors could conclude that only someone who intended to injure the Hotshots would act so wantonly.

      – At about 3:58 p.m. on June 30, 2013, Air Tactical Group Supervisor Rory Collins left the firefighting effort with no explanation or proper turn-over and went to his Deer Valley home. Collins had been in charge of the aerial water and retardant drops needed to fight the fire and protect the Hotshots. Abandonment of his post left the Hotshots, including Grant, confronting death with no hope of rescue or safety. Complaint 207-10 (IR 1). Reasonable jurors could find he displayed “willful misconduct.”

      Because Marcia McKee’s case ended through a motion to dismiss, the Complaint’s facts asserting a basis for finding willful misconduct must be taken as true and all reasonable inferences from them must be taken in Marcia’s favor. Steinberger v. McVey ex rel. County of Maricopa, 234 Ariz. 125, 131 1123 (App. 2014).

      Moreover, a defendant’s “mental state must necessarily be ascertained by inference from all relevant surrounding circumstances.” In re William G., 192 Ariz. 208, 213 (App. 1997). A party is responsible for intentionally causing a harmful consequence if the party “knows or believes that the consequence is certain, or substantially certain, to result from [the party’s] act.” Restatement (Second) of Torts 870 at 280, cmt. b (1979). Intent is evident if a person acts “knowing that the consequence is substantially certain to result.” Restatement (Third) of Torts; Physical and Emotional Harm 1(b) at 3 (2010). It is an old story that deliberately leaving a person in danger’s path can show intent to kill. 2 Samuel 11:14-17 (King James 1611) (soldier deliberately left in harm’s way is killed).

      Here, a reasonable jury could find that State employees harbored an intent to injure amounting to “willful misconduct,” since they acted knowing the deaths of some or all of the Hotshots, including Grant, were substantially certain.

      ( Continued next ‘Reply’ )…

    • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

      3. Division One and Division Two are in direct conflict on when waiver arises when an employer’s misconduct kills an employee.

      Division One found waiver of the right to pursue a wrongful-death claim in a workers’ compensation case under circumstances where Division Two would find no waiver. AAA Cab Service, Inc. v. Industrial Commission, 213 Ariz. 342, 344 6 (App. 2006) (Because of “the legislative history of 23-1024(A), we conclude that, if the legislature had intended a final award to constitute an election of workers’ compensation, it would have included express language to that effect. This court cannot write a term into the statute that the legislature did not include.”). The importance of the waiver issue statewide—and the divisional conflict—support granting the petition for review.

      The conflict between Division One and Division Two involves the workers’ compensation waiver-of-immunity statute, A.R.S. 23-1024, which provides:

      A. An employee, or his legal representative in event death results, who accepts compensation waives the right to exercise any option to institute proceedings in court against his employer or any co-employee acting within the scope of his employment, or against the employer’s workers’ compensation insurance carrier or administrative service representative.

      B. An employee, or his legal representative in event death results, who exercises any option to institute a proceeding in court against his employer waives any right to compensation.

      Four principles flow from A.R.S. 23-1024. First, a deceased worker’s “legal representative” may bring a wrongful-death action if the estate has not accepted workers’ compensation. A “legal representative” is a “personal representative or conservator.” A.R.S. 14-9101(8). There can be a wrongful-death action as long as the deceased worker’s legal representative has not accepted any workers’ compensation.

      Second, under A.R.S. 23-1024, the only categories of litigants expressly subject to waiver are (1) employees and (2) deceased employees’ legal representatives. Either category must have accepted workers’ compensation benefits. Marcia is not suing as legal representative. A.R.S. 14-9101(8). Instead, Marcia is directly suing in her own name as a surviving parent. She never accepted any workers’ compensation benefits for her son’s death; her son never accepted any benefits for his injuries. He died before that could happen. So he never waived his right to sue.

      Third, since there has been no actual waiver of any right to sue, the state’s claim that A.R.S. 12-611 prevents a wrongful-death lawsuit is untenable. Because there has been no waiver (by Grant, his nonexistent legal representative, or Marcia), the State’s negligence in causing Grant’s death “is such, as would, if death had not ensued, have entitled” Grant “to maintain an action to recover damages.” A.R.S. 12-611.

      Fourth, accepting workers’ compensation benefits is the “single” legislatively- designated act creating waiver of an injured worker’s right to sue the employer. AAA Cab Service, Inc. v. Industrial Comm’n, 213 Ariz. 342, 343 3 (App. 2006).

      In AAA Cab Service, a taxicab driver died on the job, allegedly because of his employer’s negligence. His widow filed a wrongful-death action against the employer and then, one month later, also filed a claim for workers’ compensation benefits. The ICA issued an award to the widow. The widow then withdrew her ICA claim and proceeded solely with her superior-court wrongful-death claim. An ALJ found that, under A.R.S.23-1024, the widow could withdraw her workers’ compensation claim since she had never accepted workers’ compensation benefits (like Marcia McKee). Id. at 343 1-2.

      The employer appealed, arguing the widow’s original pursuit of a claim “for workers’ compensation” barred her from a civil wrongful-death action. The employer, however, conceded that “the legislature designated a single act as creating a waiver of an injured worker’s right to file a lawsuit against his or her employer: `accept[ing] compensation.’ 23-1024(A).” Id. at 343 113.

      AAA Cab Service held that A.R.S. 23-1024, as “the relevant statute,” “designates only one act triggering its waiver provision—accepting compensation.” Id. at 343-44 5 (emphasis added). Under A.R.S. 23-1024, “acceptance of benefits [is] the ‘sole statutory test'” for deciding existence of waiver for a survivor seeking to bring a wrongful-death action. Id. at 344 5, 141 P.3d at 824 (quoting Southwest Cooperative Wholesale v. Superior Court, 13 Ariz. App. 453, 459 (1970)).

      Besides 23-1024’s controlling terms, neither Grant nor Marcia took any workers’ compensation benefits. Thus, neither of them committed waiver, which is either the express, voluntary, intentional relinquishment of a known right or conduct warranting an inference of an intentional relinquishment. Compass Bank v. Bennett, 240 Ariz. 58, 60 11 (App. 2016). Absent waiver, which never occurred, the State can claim no immunity.

      ( Continued next ‘Reply’ )…

    • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

      4. This Court should grant review because a victim’s physical presence at the scene and specific targeting of the victim are not essential IIED elements.

      The Court of Appeals found Marcia had no IIED claim because she “failed to allege that she was present at the time of the allegedly extreme and outrageous conduct leading to her son’s death, or that any of defendants’ conduct was directed at her.” Opinion at 26.

      This Court should grant review because IIED claims are a key feature of many Arizona tort cases. Interpreting the IIED tort to require a victim’s physical presence at the scene of the wrongdoing or specific targeting of the IIED victim unfairly limits the effective prosecution of IIED claims across Arizona.

      Naturally enough, Marcia did not allege she was in the canyon where her son perished and did not allege she was in the back rooms where the State concocted the cover-up directed both at the public and at the firefighters’ statutory beneficiaries. But physical presence is not an essential element to an IIED claim.

      Contemporaneous perception is required for some IIED claims. Restatement (Third) of Torts: Physical & Emotional Harm 46 cmt. m (2012). But as much as anyone else, given the conflagration’s remote site, Marcia was a contemporaneous witness. She saw the dreadful images of the wildfire and heard news reports about Grant’s death. Practically speaking, she contemporaneously perceived this tragedy. Id. See also Croft v. Wicker, 737 P.2d 789, 792 (Alaska 1987) (A third person “foreseeabl y harmed by extreme and outrageous conduct may state [an IIED] cause of action.”). As much as anyone else not in on it, Marcia contemporaneously perceived the cover-up. She was thus effectively “present” during the State’s extreme and outrageous cover-up. Opinion at 26.

      Physical presence is not essential for the tort—nor should it be. After all, Section 46 only requires that: “An actor who by extreme and outrageous conduct intentionally or recklessly causes severe emotional harm to another is subject to liability for that emotional harm and, if the emotional harm causes bodily harm, also for the bodily harm.”

      Ultimately, whether conduct is extreme and outrageous depends on each case’s facts, including the parties’ relationship (State v. grieving mother), whether the defendant abused a position of authority (the State did), whether the victim was especially vulnerable (she was), whether the defendant knew of the vulnerability (it was obvious), and the defendant’s motive (evade blame). Id. at 46 cmt. d.

      The Complaint alleged the State was liable for IIED because it: (1) had committed extreme and outrageous misconduct; (2) recklessly disregarded the near certainty that emotional distress to Marcia would result; and (3) caused Marcia to suffer severe emotional distress Complaint 308, 311-12 (IR 1). Those are the standard IIED elements. Intentional Torts 16, Intentional Infliction of Emotional Distress (Elements of Claim), RAJI (Civil) (5th ed. July 2013).

      The State acted recklessly despite knowing the risk of severe emotional harm to relatives of firefighters combating the fire. The State did that although the burden to protect the firefighters was slight relative to the magnitude of risk. Complaint 309 (IR 1). The State’s misconduct killed Grant horribly, giving Marcia a claim for IIED.

      The State continued its extreme and outrageous conduct after Grant died by conducting a cover-up to avoid blame. Complaint 314 (IR 1). The State’s cover-up violated the public trust and multiplied Marcia’s “emotional devastation.” Complaint 315 (IR 1). She trusted the State with her son’s life during the State’s firefighting efforts. Complaint 316 (IR 1). The State’s betrayal of her trust, and its cover-up, caused her to suffer severe emotional distress and depression—just when she was most vulnerable. Complaint 316-17 (IR 1).

      The IIED claim arising from the State’s cover-up is not subject to any immunity defense. After all, the cover-up began after Grant died. This IIED claim is separate from Marcia’s other claims. This, if all other claims fail, the IIED claim survives.

      A cover-up concerning how a loved one died is extreme and outrageous conduct intentionally inflicting extreme emotional distress. For instance, in Thomas v. Hospital Bd. of Directors of Lee County, 41 So.3d 246 (Fla App. 2010), a nurse and doctor tried to protect themselves from being sued by lying about the cause of their patient’s death.

      Based on that cover-up, the Florida Court of Appeals approved the IIED claim: “We believe that in a situation where a person’s loved one has died, it would be apparent to anyone that the person would be susceptible to emotional distress and, therefore, that the action of providing false information concerning the loved one’s cause of death meets the standard for a claim of outrage (intentional infliction of emotional distress).” Id. at 256.

      That reasonable and just principle should apply here as well.

      ( Continued next ‘Reply’ )…

    • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

      Conclusion

      Marcia McKee respectfully asks the Court to grant the petition for review.

      DATED this 27th day of January, 2017.

      KNAPP & ROBERTS, P.C.
      /s/ David L. Abney, Esq.
      Signed: David L. Abney
      Attorneys for Petitioners/Plaintiffs/Appellants

      Certificate of Compliance

      This document: (1) uses Times New Roman 14-point proportionately spaced typeface for text and footnotes; (2) contains 3,492 words (by computer count); and (3) averages less than 280 words per page, including footnotes and quotations.

      Certificate of Service

      On this date, the above-signing lawyer e-filed this document with the Clerk of the Arizona Supreme Court, and mailed two copies of it to each of the following:

      – Mark Brnovich, Esq. and Brock Heathcotte, Esq.,
      OFFICE OF ARIZONA ATTORNEY GENERAL,
      1275 West Washington Street, Phoenix, Arizona 85007-2926,
      DefensePhx (at) azag.gov, Brock.Heathcotte (at) az.ag, (602) 542-7664, Fax: (602) 542-3393,
      Attorneys for Respondents/Defendants/Appellees.

      – Michael L. Parrish, Esq.,
      STINSON LEONARD STREET LLP,
      1850 N. Central Ave., Ste. 2100, Phoenix, AZ 85004,
      (602) 279-1600, mike.parrish (at) stinsonleonard.com,
      Attorneys for Respondents/Defendants/Appellees.

      /s/ David L. Abney, Esq.
      Signed: David L. Abney

      Exhibit 1

      A copy of the original decision issued by the Arizona Court of Appeals regarding MCKEE v. STATE, et al.

      Arizona Division 1 Court of Appeals Presiding Judge Andrew W. Gould ( who had already been sworn in as one of Governor Doug Ducey’s 2 new Arizona Supreme Court Justices ) delivered the opinion of the Appeals Court, in which Judge Peter B. Swann and Judge Patricia A. Orozco joined.

      NOTE: See the original document for the complete ‘Exhibit 1’.

      Exhibit 2

      A copy of just part of the original Arizona Division of Occupational Safety and Health ( ADOSH ) investigation report related to the 2013 Yarnell Hill Fire, including the 4 ‘Willful Serious’ Workplace Safety Violations ( one of which caused the death of the 19 Granite Mountain Hotshots ) and the associated ( maximum and historic ) fines and penalties that were levied against employer Arizona Forestry.

      ————————————————————————————–
      Industrial Commission. of Arizona
      Arizona Division of Occupational Safety and Health ( ADOSH )
      Inspection Number: 317242683
      Inspection Dates: 07/01/2013 – 12/03/2013
      Issuance Date: 12/05/2013
      CSHO ID: L3419
      Citation and Notification of Penalty
      Company Name: Arizona State Forestry Division, State of Arizona
      Inspection Site: Weaver Mountains/Yarnell Hill Fire, Yarnell, AZ 85362
      Citation 1 Item 1 Type of Violation: Willful Serious
      Date By Which Violation Must be Abated: 12/11/2013
      Assessed PENALTY: $70,000 ( SEVENTY THOUSAND DOLLARS )

      A.R.S. Section 23-403(A): The employer did not furnish to each of his employees employment and a place of employment which were free from recognized hazards that were causing or likely to cause death or serious physical harm to their employees, in that the employer implemented suppression strategies that prioritized protection of non-defensible structures and pastureland over firefighter safety, and failed to prioritize strategies consistent with Arizona State Forestry Division – Standard Operational Guideline 701 Fire Suppression and Prescribed Fire Policy (2008). When the employer knew that suppression of extremely active chaparral fuels was ineffective and that wind would push active fire towards non-defensible structures, firefighters working downwind were not promptly removed from exposure to smoke inhalation, bums, and death:

      FOUR Distinct ( and separate ) WILLFUL / SERIOUS violations are cited:

      a) Yarnell Hill Fire, Yarnell, Arizona: On June 30, 2013, between 1230 and 1430, and after the general public had been evacuated, thirty-one members of Structure Protection Group 2, charged with protecting non-defensible structures in the vicinity of the Double Bar A Ranch, were exposed to smoke inhalation, burns, and death by wind driven wildland fire.

      b) Yarnell Hill Fire, Yarnell, Arizona: On June 30, 2013, from and after 1530, one member of the Granite Mountain Interagency Hotshot Crew that continued to serve as a lookout was exposed to smoke inhalation, burns, and death by a rapidly progressing wind driven wildland fire.

      c) Yarnell Hill Fire, Yarnell, Arizona: On June 30, 2013, from and after 1530, approximately thirty firefighters continued indirect attack activities in Division Z (Zulu) and were exposed to smoke inhalation, burns, and death by a rapidly progressing wind driven wildland fire.

      d) Yarnell Hill Fire, Yarnell, Arizona: On June 30, 2013, from and after 1530, 19 members of the Granite Mountain Interagency Hotshot Crew continued in suppression activities, until 1642 when they were entrapped by a rapidly progressing wind driven wildland fire.

      Date By Which Violation Must be Abated: 12/11/2013
      Assessed PENALTY: $70,000 ( SEVENTY THOUSAND DOLLARS )
      ————————————————————————————————-

      END OF ‘PETITION FOR REVIEW’

  4. WantsToKnowTheTruth says

    **
    ** MARCIA MCKEE IS TAKING HER ‘WRONGFUL DEATH’ CASE
    ** FILED ON BEHALF OF HER SON ( DECEASED GRANITE MOUNTAIN HOTSHOT
    ** GRANT MCKEE ) ALL THE WAY TO THE ARIZONA SUPREME COURT

    As part of her continuing example of bravery, tenacity, and her simple ‘Search for the Truth’… just 48 hours ago, Marcia McKee ( and her lawyers ) filed an official ‘Petition for Review’ with the Arizona Supreme Court.

    She is now officially asking the ‘Arizona Supreme Court’ itself to ‘Review’ the recent decision made by the lower ‘Arizona Court of Appeals’.

    That ‘filing’ is now showing up on the case ‘docket’ at the following link…

    http://apps.supremecourt.az.gov/aacc/appella/1CA/CV/CV150800.PDF

    See the ( new ) entry number 28 in the ‘Case History’ record…

    —————————————————————————————-
    28. 30-Jan-2017 FILED: Email Notice from ASC ( Arizona Supreme Court )
    re: Petition for Review filed 1/27/17, request for partial record.

    —————————————————————————————-

    The ‘request for partial record’ part of that entry means that the Arizona Court of Appeals has been officially ‘notified’ by the Arizona Supreme Court to supply the ‘records’ of their hearing of the case up to the Supreme Court.

    This does not automatically mean that the Arizona Supreme Court has decided to ‘allow’ the ‘Petition for Review’. It just means they need the ‘records’ from the Court of Appeals so they can make that ‘decision’.

    I don’t have a PACER ( Public Access to Court Electronic Records ) account, so I can’t see what was actually just ‘filed’ with the Arizona Supreme Court, but maybe someone else can.

    Either way… here is what is supposed to be contained in that ‘Petition for Review’ submitted to the Arizona Supreme Court.

    Arizona Judicial Branch
    Court of Appeals
    Procedures Manual
    http://www.azcourts.gov/Portals/21/Pro%20Se%20Forms/ProSeGuide.pdf

    On PDF page 8, which explains the ‘progression’ of an Arizona Court of Appeals case… and what can happen even after the Court of Appeals has made a ‘decision’…

    ———————————————————————————————
    19. The ‘Losing’ party ( in an Arizona Court of Appeals decision ) may file a
    ‘Motion for Reconsideration’ with the Court of Appeals, and/or a ‘Petition for Review’
    with the Arizona Supreme Court

    20. The ‘Winning’ party ( in the same case ) may timely file a ‘Response to Petition
    for Review’ with the Arizona Supreme Court

    21. Arizona Supreme Court either grants or denies ‘Petition for Review’ and issues
    appropriate order

    ———————————————————————————————

    So Marcia McKee is now at ‘Step 19’ and has now filed her ‘Petition for Review’ of the Arizona Court of Appeals decision with the Arizona Supreme Court.

    Here is what the Arizona Supreme Court ‘Procedures’ manual says about that…

    PDF page 32
    ———————————————————————————————-
    Chapter XII – The Petition for Review
    Seeking Further Review in the Arizona Supreme Court

    Any party who believes that the Court of Appeals decision was wrong can file a “Petition for Review” with the Clerk of the Arizona Supreme Court within thirty (30) days after the Court of Appeals issues its decision. That time is not extended if the decision is sent to the parties by mail.

    The party opposing the Petition for Review may file a “Response to the Petition for Review” in the Arizona Supreme Court. (A form of the Petition for Review is attached as Form 23, and a form of the Response to the Petition for Review is attached as Form 24.) Below is a description of the formatting requirements and contents of the Petition for Review and the Response to the Petition for Review.

    STEP 1 – PREPARATION

    A. The parties filing the Petition for Review and the Response to the Petition for Review should follow all of the requirements for paper size, font size, margins, page numbers, headings, etc. described in Step 1 of “Opening Brief.”

    B. The Petition for Review and the Response to the Petition for Review may not exceed 3,500 words. A Cross-Petition combined with a Response to a Petition for Review may not exceed 6,500 words.

    C. A copy of the Court of Appeals decision must be attached to the Petition for Review.

    STEP 2 – CONTENTS

    A. The Petition for Review (Form 23) and the Response to the Petition for Review (Form 24) must contain a discussion of:

    1. The issues presented for review;

    2. A list of additional issues not decided by the Court of Appeals that may need to be decided by the Arizona Supreme Court if review is granted;

    3. A statement of the important facts; and

    4. The reasons for granting or denying the Petition for Review, such as whether (1) an Arizona decision controls the point of law in question, (2) a decision of the Arizona Supreme Court should be overruled or modified, (3) the Court of Appeals has made conflicting decisions, or (4) an important issue of law has been decided incorrectly. This section is important because the Supreme Court is not required to review Court of Appeals decisions.

    TIMING

    The Petition for Review must be filed within 30 days after entry of the Court of Appeals’ decision.

    A party opposing the Petition for Review ( then ) has thirty (30) days to file a Response to the Petition for Review if the Petition for Review was hand-delivered or electronically served. If the Petition for Review was mailed, the opposing party has thirty-five (35) days from the date of mailing to file the Response to the Petition for Review.

    When the Arizona Supreme Court decides whether it will grant or deny the Petition for Review, it will mail a copy of its decision to the parties. You may provide consent to receive documents from the court electronically by completing, signing and filing Form 26.

    If the Petition for Review is GRANTED, the Supreme Court will issue an Order stating whether supplemental briefs or oral argument will be permitted.

    If a Petition for Review is DENIED, no further appeal to a state court is permitted. Motions to reconsider the denial of a petition for review are not allowed.
    ———————————————————————————————–

      • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

        Reply to Rocksteady post on February 3, 2017 at 6:47 pm

        >> Rocksteady said…
        >>
        >> Good for Marcia… I hope she keeps pushing until the truth comes out

        Someone should make a ‘movie’ about THIS brave woman.

        I wonder if Meryl Streep ( you know… that ‘underrated actress’ ) is available?

        See the FULL TEXT of the ‘Petition for Review’ that Marcia McKee has filed with the Arizona Supreme Court up in this new posting…

        http://www.investigativemedia.com/please-begin-yarnell-hill-fire-chapter-xxv-here/#comment-470213

        NOTE: This TEXT version of the PUBLIC document has been posted here to the forum with the full permission of Marcia McKee, in case someone doesn’t have a PACER ( Public Access to Court Electronic Documents ) account.

        There are still undecided ‘issues’ here that could cause this case to go all the way to the United States Supreme Court.

        Such as…

        Is a STATE allowed to have LAWS on its books that directly CONTRADICT each other with regards to who is ‘allowed’ to file a ‘wrongful death’ lawsuit… and under what circumstances.

  5. rocksteady says

    So has there been any significant push for fuels management activities around communities since the Yarnell Fire????

    Being that its all chaparral, manzanita, mesquite (whatever) that has zero timber value, why not go out and treat areas around communities to 1000 yards (be it with mechanical mulching or prescribed fire) and then maintain it thru fire or what have you every 3 to 5 years???

    Just looking at photos and maps, seems to be pretty easy ground that a large mulcher type machine could do a lot of ground in a day…

  6. WantsToKnowTheTruth says

    **
    ** THE ‘CHAIN OF CUSTODY’ FOR THE PANEBAKER YARNELL
    ** AFUE AIR STUDY VIDEOS AND RADIO RECORDINGS

    ** THE SHORT STORY

    Only 32 days after the June 30, 2013 Yarnell Hill Fire tragedy… ABC NEWS Investigative Producer James Gordon Meek had already learned that there had been some kind of ‘Aerial Firefighting Study Group’ present in Yarnell the day of the tragedy, and they were there ‘recording data’.

    On August 1, 2013… James Gordon Meek sent his first ( of many ) ’email’ to Jennifer Jones ( APR Public Affairs Specialist U.S. Forest Service, Washington Office, Fire and Aviation Management ) inquiring about this ‘Air Study’ at the Yarnell Hill Fire.

    SIDENOTE: As far as we know… James Gordon Meek’s inquiries to USFS were the FIRST ones coming ‘from the outside’ regarding these AFUE recordings. Others would follow in the weeks and months to come ( and after the SAIR report was released in September of 2013 )… but James Gordon Meek ( apparently ) submitted the first FOIA requests for these ‘AFUE recordings’.

    After several email exchanges back and forth… the US Forestry Service finally admitted to him that YES… there HAD been a USFS sponsored ‘AFUE Air Study’ team operating in Yarnell on the day of the tragedy… and they HAD been making ‘recordings’ at the time prior to, during, and after the 19 Hotshots died.

    On August 5, 2013… James Gordon Meek submitted his own FOIA request(s) on behalf of ABC NEWS requesting ALL of these ‘USFS AFUE recordings’… and his FOIA included a stern WARNING to U.S. Forestry that these recordings were obviously of ‘strong’ interest to the ‘public’… and that USFS should not attempt to declare a ‘privacy’ exemption.

    His actual WARNING to USFS in his FOIA included the following paragraph(s)…

    ————————————————————————————
    Presidential Memorandum for Heads of Executive Departments and Agencies Concerning the Freedom of lnformation Act, 74 Fed. Reg. 4683 (Jan. 21, 2009) emphasizes that the Freedom of Information Act reflects a “profound national commitment to ensuring an open Government” and directing agencies to “adopt a presumption in favor of disclosure.”

    ln this case, the public interest is strong because the information reveals the operations or activities of the government in carrying out a firefighting operation that led to the deaths of 19 firefighters.

    There is significant media and public interest about what went wrong at Yarnell Hill. The U.S. Forest Service should NOT deny access to the requested records because they may be embarrassing; that rationale is NOT permissible.

    Sincerely,
    James Gordon Meek ( Investigative Producer for ABC NEWS )

    ————————————————————————————–

    James Gordon Meek also sent an email directly to the head of U.S. Forestry ( Tom Harbour, at that time ) requesting details regarding the ‘chain of custody’ for these USFS AFUE Air Study recordings.

    2 days later, on August 7, 2013, USFS Public Affairs person Jennifer Jones responded to James Gordon Meek with a ‘chain of custody’ description regarding the USFS AFUE Air Study ‘recordings’.

    That email revealed that only HOURS after the tragedy on June 30, 2013, A ‘USFS employee’ on the AFUE team ( presumably USFS employee Eric Panebaker, but she does not name him ) realized the IMPORTANCE of the recordings they now had in their possession… and he immediately gathered the full ‘team’ together to ‘collect’ ALL of the recordings they had ALL been making that day.

    He ( Eric Panebaker ) then collected ALL of those ‘recordings’ onto a ‘hard drive’, and then waited 3 days ( until July 4, 2013 ) until the SAIT had finally ‘assembled’ in Yarnell ( Mike Dudley, Jim Karels, etc. ) and he then informed THEM of this ‘evidence’ they had.

    The next day… he ( Eric Panebaker ) handed the ‘hard drive’ with ALL of the AFUE recordings to a ( quote ) ‘SAIT team member’.

    So Mike Dudley, Jim Karels and the SAIT were the ones to first actually receive ALL of the ‘AFUE’ recordings just as soon as the SAIT had assembled and been given its ‘delegation of authority’ to begin investigating the Yarnell tragedy.

    That complete email to ABC NEWS Investigative Producer James Gordon Meek was as follows…

    —————————————————————————————
    From: Jones, Jennifer E -FS ( mailto – jejones (at) fs.fed.us )
    Sent: Wednesday, August 07, 2013 11:42 AM
    To: Meek, James ( ABC NEWS Investigative Producer )
    Cc: Harbour, Tom -FS; Drelick, Donna -FS; Kay, Leo F -FS
    Subject: AFUE Recordings Info

    To: James Gordon Meek
    ABC NEWS Investigative Producer
    24-hour mobile/text: 202-236-XXXX james.meek (at) abc.com

    Hi James, per your request to Tom Harbour, here is information on the chain of custody of the AFUE recordings – if you have any questions about this, please let me know, thanks!

    June 30, 2013 – A U.S. Forest Service employee who was with the AFUE group when they were recording the data on the Yarnell Hill Fire asked the group to provide him with all of the data that they had collected.

    July 1, 2013 – The U.S. Forest Service employee took possession of the data and contacted their supervisor to find out when the Serious Accident Investigation Team (SAIT) would be arriving in Phoenix and how the AFUE data could be provided to them.

    July 4, 2013 – The U.S. Forest Service employee met with the SAIT and told them that they had raw data from the AFUE group that was on the Yarnell Hill fire on the day of the incident.

    July 5 or 6, 2013 – The U.S. Forest Service employee passed off the hard drive containing the data to an SAIT team member.

    Jennifer Jones, APR Public Affairs Specialist U.S. Forest Service
    Washington Office, Fire and Aviation Management
    National lnteragency Fire Center
    Office (208) 387-5437
    Mobile (208) 631-0406

    —————————————————————————————

    ** THE LONG STORY

    I’ll post some more emails about this as a ‘Reply’ to this posting.

      • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

        There’s more. I’m putting it together right now.

        These are just some of the USFS ’emails’ related to the Yarnell AFUE study that were already obtained via FOIA… and if anyone is now pretending they don’t have them… they are ( of course ) LYING.

        • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

          Followup…

          What that first email above PROVES is that it really WAS Mike Dudley, Jim Karels and the SAIT who were the very FIRST ‘recipients’ of the actual FULL ‘raw data files’ that were ‘collected’ from the AFUE team members the very night ( and the following morning ) from whatever devices the AFUE team had been using on June 30, 2013.

          That ‘hard drive’ which ( supposedly ) contained absolutely EVERYTHING they had ( including possibly BOTH their A2A and A2G recordings ) never left Arizona before it was physically HANDED to some unnamed person on the SAIT team ( on July 5 or 6 ).

          It is still not known if Eric Panebaker ‘handed over’ a COPY of ALL the data that was collected… or whether he actually gave that mysterious SAIT member the ACTUAL ( original ) hard drive he had used to ‘collect’ the data from his team members just hours after the tragedy itself.

          And where is that actual ( original ) hard-drive now?

          Are we supposed to believe it was DESTROYED, or something?

    • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

      ** THE ‘CHAIN OF POSSESSION’ FOR THE PANEBAKER YARNELL
      ** AFUE AIR STUDY VIDEOS AND RADIO RECORDINGS

      ** THE LONG STORY

      This is just sort of going to be a ‘dump’ of many other emails related to the original FOIA request(s) made to USFS by ABC NEWS Investigative Producer James Gordon Meek just 32 days after the Yarnell Tragedy.. but they all ‘lead up’ to the email already printed above.

      This is just what went on ‘leading up’ to that email above… and will include ABC NEWS Investigative Producer James Gordon Meek’s actual FOIA request to U.S. Forestry.

      They are mostly in SEQUENTIAL order… starting with USFS ‘Public Affairs Specialist’ Jennifer Jones’ very first ’email’ response to James Gordon Meek.

      What you will see is a ‘progression’ on the part of Jennifer Jones of first trying to supply ABC NEWS with ‘unrelated’ information ‘not responsive to the request’, but then she sends OTHER emails off to Arizona Forestry and gets ‘educated’ herself about what does or doesn’t exist with regards to the AFUE recordings.

      But as you read… keep in mind that even though Jennifer Jones is a top level USFS PIO… she seems totally unaware that USFS employee ( and SAIT Co-Lead ) Mike Dudley has ALREADY been in possession of a ‘hard drive’ that contains ( supposedly ) ALL of the actual AFUE ‘raw data’ collected the night of June 30, 2013.

      She eventually ‘discovers’ this… even though that hard drive had been ‘handed’ to USFS employee Mike Dudley and his SAIT team a MONTH earlier… on July 5 ( or 6 ).

      It’s going to take a few ‘Replies’ to ‘dump’ these emails, due to length limits for any one post.

      So away we go.

      Here is USFS Public Affaris Specialist Jennifer Jones ( in the USDA USFS Washington office ) responding to ABC NEWS Investigative Producer James Gordon Meek’s FIRST email to HER, on August 1, 2013… followed by the sequential ‘responses’…

      ** AUGUST 1, 2013

      NOTE: The ‘Carl Bambarger’ that USFS Public Affairs Specialist ‘Jennifer Jones’ is about to refer to has a ‘LinkedIN’ page that says…

      Carl Bamburger: Aviation Program Leader at US Forest Service, San Dimas Technology Development Center

      ———————————————————————————————-
      From: “Jones, Jennifer E -FS” ( jejones (at) fs.fed.us )
      Sent: Aug 1, 2013, at 10:00 AM,
      To: Meek, James ( ABC NEWS Investigative Producer )
      Subject: Re: Airtanker Study Info

      Hi James, per your request, here is info about the airtanker study/testing that Carl Bambarger is currently engaged in, if you have any additional questions or need more info, shout, thanks!

      Aerial Firefighting Use and Effectiveness (AFUE) Study

      – The Forest Service initiated the Aerial Firefighting Use and Effectiveness (AFUE) study to evaluate the effectiveness of firefighting aircraft that deliver water or wildland fire chemicals to support incident management objectives on wildfires.

      – The AFUE study will develop processes, technology, and performance metrics that will, when implemented, become part of Forest Service aerial firefighting operations.

      – The AFUE study addreses questions such as:

      Was the aircraft used on initial attack, extended attack, or a large fire?
      Did the aircraft support incident objectives?
      On how many fires-and which ones-were airtankers used?
      Was the drop at the right height and speed for that aircraft and its delivery system?
      How many gallons were dropped, and what was the level of coverage?
      How can technology improve tracking, documentation, evaluation, and avoidance in delivery of water or wildland fire chemicals?

      – Phase 1 of AFUE began in summer 2012 and is continuing in 2013, collecting data on a limited number of incidents using a specifically designed form to capture the above information and other fire, aircraft and drop data.

      – Phase 2, which will begin when Phase 1 is completed, will focus on metrics developed during Phase 1 and any data gaps. Phase 2 will also address the implementation of processes, systems, and technology that may be more complex in terms of funding, technology, operational changes, or additional time requirements.

      – Next Generation Airtanker Testing

      – Next Generation Airtankers must receive Interagency Airtanker Board (IAB) approval for their tanking systems and retardant delivery performance standards before they can begin flying wildfire suppression missions.

      – Testing is being conducted in support of the IAB approval process. This includes grid testing, which is one of the requirements to attain IAB approval. During this test, the Airtanker drops retardant that is captured in containers and measured to determine whether it can provide sufficient levels of coverage to be used in wildfire suppression.

      Jennifer Jones, APR Public Affairs Specialist U.S. Forest Service
      Washington Office, Fire and Aviation Management
      National lnteragency Fire Center
      Office (208) 387-5437
      Mobile (208) 631-XXXX
      ——————————————————————————————-

      NOTE: James Gordon Meeks knows that response is NOT what he was ‘asking for’… but he sticks with the ‘game’ and just clarifies his request…

      ——————————————————————————————-
      From: Meek, James [mailto:James.Meek@abc.com]
      Sent: Thursday, August 01, 2013 11:10 AM
      To: Jones, Jennifer E -FS
      Subject: Re: Airtanker Study Info

      Thanks, Jennifer. I appreciate the quick response.

      What data or records were collected on airtanker ops on the Yarnell Hill Fire?

      Also, I was looking at some AP photos of Yarnell Hill and it looks like USFS released photos to the media of the fire being fought. Is there a way to obtain those?
      —————————————————————————————–

      NOTE: Jennifer Jones is now either ‘pretending’… or really did NOT know ( as of August 1, 2013 ) that USFS employee Mike Dudley and his SAIT team had already been in possession of the ‘AFUE recordings’ that Meek is asking about for over a MONTH…

      —————————————————————————————–
      From: Jones, Jennifer E -FS” ( jejones (at) fs.fed.us )
      Sent: Aug 1, 2013, at 10:23 AM,
      To: Meek, James ( ABC NEWS Investigative Producer )
      Subject: Re: Airtanker Study Info

      Hi James, I am sorry but I am not clear on your first question – are you talking about what data or records may have been collected on airtanker ops on the Yarnell Hill fire in relation to the study you are inquiring about? If not, if you could please be more specific about what information you ‘re looking for, that would be helpful.

      Second, the Yarnell Hill fire was an Arizona State Forestry Division Fire, not a U.S. Forest Service fire, so I am guessing that the photos were released by them – their information officer is Carrie Dennett, you can reach her at (602) 399-3078. If you are sure that photos were released by the U.S. Forest Service, please send me the AP info and I will try to run down where they came from as they didn’t come from my office.

      Thanks!

      Jennifer Jones, APR Public Affairs Specialist U.S. Forest Service
      Washington Office, Fire and Aviation Management
      National lnteragency Fire Center
      Office (208) 387-5437
      Mobile (208) 631-XXXX
      ———————————————————————————————-

      NOTE: James Meek now makes it CLEAR to USFS employee Jennifer Jones what it is he has already HEARD about ( the AFUE study in Yarnell and possible ‘recordings’ made )… and THAT is what he is actually ‘inquiring’ about…

      ———————————————————————————————-
      From: Meek, James ( ABC NEWS – Investigative Producer )
      Sent: 1 Aug 2013 13:46:27 -0400
      To: Jones, Jennifer E -FS
      Subject: Re: Airtanker Study Info

      I’ll look for the photo cutline. I’m aware of the state having operational control of the Yarnell Hill Fire but USPS assets were also used, as you know.

      To clarify, I’m asking what kind of records or data related to the USFS study were collected on the Yarnell Hill Fire. I’m aware generally of devices being placed on airtankers as part of the study to log drops of retardant, for example.

      An official also mentioned to me that as part of the USFS study that radio transmissions of pilots, incident commanders, dispatch and/or ground crews, etc., may have been RECORDED as well.

      James Gordon Meek ( ABC NEWS – Investigative Producer )
      ———————————————————————————————–

      Continued next ‘Reply’…

      • Charlie says

        Thanks WTKTT. This information and obvious withholding of information and defensive measures taken to the extreme tell us that the FS has taken a stand of us against them-FS vs Public. This stance is a crack in their armor indeed.

        We hope that the information that WTKTT has revealed and its layout are forwarded to the FBI and our new President Trump so he can have a better look at how the USFS has been operating. He might want to have one of his investigators have a close look at the way the FS has continued to hide and redact documents essential to the understanding of what went wrong at the Yarnell Hill Wild Land fire debacle. I am certain our President will consider the truth of the cause of the deaths of those 19 men a matter of utmost importance. He will perhaps give it a very close look especially seeing how some in the Department of Interior system are using the system for political ends–for example using Twitter to compare photos of Obama vs Trump inaugural attendance, something totally inappropriate for the job they are hired to do.

        What is the FS hiding on the retardant plane videos and communication recordings. Will they show the back burns, and will they show how inept bosses and communicators were and how the men were actually positioned with their obvious commands to go where no man should go. It might even show Joy and Sonny going away from the Atom Bomb Wild Fire to a safe zone on the west side of the Weavers while the men were going straight into a death trap. Good Lord what idiot ordered them down there to die like that?

        • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

          Reply to Charlie post on January 23, 2017 at 12:00 pm

          >> Charlie said…
          >>
          >> I am certain our President will consider the truth of the cause
          >> of the deaths of those 19 men a matter of utmost importance.

          You really don’t have a clue who just ‘accidentally’ got elected President.

            • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

              He’s certifiable.

              His narcissism appears to have no boundaries.

              Even worse than Nixon.

              Even today, after 3 of his own cabinet picks and all major Congressional representatives have disavowed the use of ‘torture’… HE is STILL saying he ‘believes in it’. He says it is probably not ‘pleasant’… but it’s NOT torture and it is ‘useful’.

              He stood in front of the memorial ‘wall of stars’ at the CIA and rambled incoherently about his inauguration… and then committed actual treason by ‘announcing’ that he endorses committing ‘war crimes’ overseas.

              ‘Treason’ is defined in the Constitution ( Article III ) as giving “Aid and Comfort to the enemy”. Videos of Trump’s statement that he will just “take the oil” the next chance he gets are circulating all over the Middle East… and our actual ‘enemies’ are now saying they are ‘inspired to fight even harder’ and kill even more of our servicemen and servicewomen abroad. Trump has given them new ‘Aid and Comfort’ to fight on ( even harder ).

              As for ‘Accidental President’… that is now just one of the ‘labels’ being assigned to him.

              He LOST the popular vote by more votes than anyone in history who was still allowed to actually take the oath of office.

              Trump was only ‘allowed’ to take the actual oath of office because of a total of just 77,744 votes spread out over 3 different states ( Pennsylvania, Wisconsin and Michigan ).

              That isn’t even enough people to fill the ‘FedExField’ football stadium in Landover, Maryland, where the Washington Redskins play ( Capacity: 79,000 seats ).

              That is also just 0.06 ( SIX ONE-HUNDRETHS OF ONE PERCENT ) of the total votes cast for either Trump or Clinton… and any ‘statistician’ will tell you a ‘margin’ that LOW is well into the ‘Accidental’ category.

              Just Google the following 3 words…

              Trump Accidental President

              OR… just click the following link and it will do the search for you…

              https://www.google.com/search?hl=en&as_q=Trump+accidental+president&as_epq=&as_oq=&as_eq=&as_nlo=&as_nhi=&lr=&cr=&as_qdr=all&as_sitesearch=&as_occt=any&safe=images&as_filetype=&as_rights=

    • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

      USFS EMAILS ( continued )…

      Now that ABC NEWS Investigative Producer Gordon Meek has made it CLEAR to Jennifer Jones that he has already heard ( from an unnamed source ) about the USFS AFUE ‘Study’ that was taking place in Yarnell on June 30, 2013… here is USFS Public Affairs Specialist Jennifer Jones now asking Arizona Forestry PIO Carrie Dennet about the ‘Aerial Firefighting Use and Effectiveness’ ( AFUE ) recordings that are being ‘requested’ by ABC NEWS Investigative Producer James Gordon Meek…

      NOTE: Jennifer Jones has NOT responded back to James Gordon Meek yet, but would do so one half hour after this email to Carrie Dennet ( at 5:02 PM ) and would then CONFIRM to James Gordon Meek that an AFUE study HAD been taking place in Yarnell on June 30, 2013.

      But Arizona Forestry’s Carrie Dennet herself would NOT respond to this email from Jennifer Jones until the NEXT DAY… when she tells Jones that she, herself, is ‘clueless’ about any sort of ‘radio captures’ related to any ‘Aerial Study’.

      So somehow… in the half-hour between when Jennifer Jones sent the following email to Carrie Dennet and when she would CONFIRM back to James Meek that there HAD been an ‘AFUE Study’ going on in Yarnell… Jennifer Jones had that CONFIRMED to her in some other way.

      There is no email showing HOW Jennifer Jones got that ‘confirmation’… at least nothing that is ‘undredacted’… so perhaps in that half-hour she made some ‘phone calls’ which didn’t get documented *OR* she was ‘informed’ via one of the ‘FULLY REDACTED’ emails shown below.

      Maybe she actually called USFS employee Mike Dudley herself in this ‘half hour’ timeframe and finally found out that Dudley really did have this AFUE ‘raw data’ hard drive for over a MONTH already.

      ———————————————————————————
      From: Jones, Jennifer E -FS ( jejones (at) fs.fed.us )
      Sent: Thursday, August 01, 2013 4:26 PM
      To: Carrie Dennett ( Fire Information and Prevention Officer for Arizona Forestry )
      Subject: ABC News Inquiry

      Hi Carrie, my name is Jennifer Jones, I work for the U.S. Forest Service at the National lnteragency Fire Center in Boise, Idaho. I am the person that Mary Zabinski said could send a few examples of investigation report release communication plans, which I am happy to do and will do by the end of this week or the first of next week.

      Meantime, when we get calls regarding the investigation of the Yarnell Hill accident, should we direct those to you or is there another PIO who has been assigned to the investigation team?

      If you could please provide me with some contact information, that would be really helpful.

      FYI, ABC News is inquiring about recordings of radio transmissions that may have been made as part of an airtanker study as aircraft involved in that study were apparently in the area of the Yarnell Hill fire when the accident occurred – our aviation staff believes that the request for the recordings should be made to the investigation team.

      If you have any questions or need more information, please let me know, thanks!

      Jennifer Jones, APR
      Public Affairs Specialist
      U.S. Forest Service
      Washington Office, Fire and Aviation Management
      National lnteragency Fire Center
      Office (208) 387-5437
      Mobile (208) 631-0406
      ———————————————————————————————-

      NOTE: Here is Arizona Forestry’s PIO Carrie Dennet’s response sent the next day.. August 2, 2016. She ( Dennett ) herself seems ‘clueless’ about the AFUE ‘raw data’ already in the possession of the Arizona Forestry SAIT for over a month at this point…

      ALSO NOTE: This Arizona Forestry Carrie Dennet person ( with a wink/wink nod/nod back to Jennifer Jones ) refers to valid ‘media requests’ as them just ‘trying to find a (quote) “crack in our armor”… as if it’s just a ‘contest’ and some kind of “US against THEM’ situation for her and Jones.

      ———————————————————————————————
      From: Carrie Dennett
      Sent: 2 Aug 2013 00:39:00 +0000
      To: Jones, Jennifer E -FS
      Subject: RE: ABC News Inquiry

      Hi Jennifer,

      Yes, we would love any examples you have. I have some examples from Carrie Templin ( BLM )… but the more I have, the better.

      You can refer any investigation questions to me. At this point, our position is that the investigation is still ongoing, and the report will be released sometime in September.

      Beyond that, no one is saying any more. All of the media knows that… they are just looking for a crack in our armor, as you well know.

      As for the airtanker study radio transmissions …they want transmissions for stuff not related to Yarnell Hill? I’m not sure how that will help them. If it’s not transmissions related to the Yarnell Hill Fire, the investigation team wouldn’t have them. The airtanker study was done by the USFS, right? I guess I’m confused as to what they want.

      Thanks for the help!

      Carrie Dennett
      Fire Information and Prevention Officer
      Arizona State Forestry Division
      1110 W. Washington St., Suite 100
      Phoenix, AZ 85007
      602-399-XXXX (mobile)
      ——————————————————————————-

      At this point… we see ‘Jennifer Jones’ communicating with all kinds of people like the ‘Carl Bambarger’ at San Dimas who was in charge of the AFUE Study… and Mike Dudley and USFS Director Tom Harbour… but the actual CONTENT of all of these emails has been REDACTED…

      …but ALL of these ‘FULLY REDACTED’ emails were definitely ‘discussing’ the ABC NEWS inquiry about the AFUE Study. Notice all the NAMES that are now being ‘included’ in this ‘discussion’ about James Gordon Meek’s emails.

      NOTICE the first one here… someone named ‘Sharp, Drag B’, a USFS employee, is sending an email to ‘KlassyKayel’ at a private email address with YAHOO.COM, regarding the ‘ABC News Inquiry’… and the content of that email has also been REDACTED…

      ———————————————————————–
      From: Sharp, Drag B -FS
      Sent: 2 Aug 2013 11:17:43 +0000
      To: ‘KlassyKayel@yahoo.com’
      Subject: Fw: ABC News Inquiry

      ( EMAIL CONTENT FULLY REDACTED )
      ————————————————————————–

      ————————————————————————–
      From: Baird, Robert A -FS
      Sent: Thursday, August 01, 2013 07:26 PM
      To: Jones, Jennifer E -FS; Harbour, Tom -FS; Hinaman, Arthur W -FS; Olsen, Dan -FS; Fortner, James P -FS; Sharp, Drag B -FS
      Subject: Re: ABC News Inquiry

      ( EMAIL CONTENT FULLY REDACTED )
      ————————————————————————–

      ————————————————————————–
      From: Jones, Jennifer E -FS
      Sent: Thursday, August 01, 2013 11:12 PM Coordinated Universal Time
      To: Harbour, Tom -FS; Hinaman, Arthur W -FS; Baird, Robert A -FS; Olsen, Dan -FS;
      Fortner, James P -FS; Sharp, Drag B -FS
      Subject: FW: ABC News Inquiry

      (110)(5).Deliberative Process Privilege

      ( ‘DELIBERATIVE PROCESS’ EXEMPTION BEING CLAIMED )
      ( EMAIL CONTENT FULLY REDACTED )

      Jennifer Jones, APR Public Affairs Specialist U.S. Forest Service
      Washington Office, Fire and Aviation Management
      National lnteragency Fire Center
      Office (208) 387-5437
      Mobile (208) 631-0406
      ————————————————————————–

      ————————————————————————–
      From: Roth, Robert -FS
      Sent: Thursday, August 01, 2013 5:07 PM
      To: Jones, Jennifer E -FS; Bambarger, Carl D -FS; Dudley, Mike -FS
      Cc: Linse, Paul -FS
      Subject: Re: ABC News Inquiry

      ( EMAIL CONTENT FULLY REDACTED )
      ————————————————————————–

      ————————————————————————–
      From: Jones, Jennifer E -FS
      Sent: Thursday, August 01, 2013 11:03 PM Coordinated Universal Time
      To: Roth, Robert -FS; Bambarger, Carl D -FS
      Cc: Linse, Paul -FS
      Subject: ABC News Inquiry

      ( EMAIL CONTENT FULLY REDACTED )

      Jennifer Jones, APR Public Affairs Specialist U.S. Forest Service
      Washington Office, Fire and Aviation Management
      National lnteragency Fire Center
      Office (208) 387-5437
      Mobile (208) 631-0406
      ————————————————————————–

      Continued next ‘Reply’…

    • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

      USFS EMAILS ( continued )…

      Jennifer Jones didn’t hear back from Arizona Forestry’s Carrie Dennet until the next day ( August 2 )… but somewhere in the half-hour between her last email to James Meek on August 1, 2013 and the very next one she would send to James Meek ( at 5:02 PM ) SOMEONE finally ‘clued her in’ that that really WERE actual RECORDINGS made by a USFS AFUE ‘Aerial Firefighting Study’ team there in Yarnell on Sunday, June 30, 2013.

      So here is Jennifer Jones ( armed with this new knowledge about the existence of the AFUE recordings ) responding to ABC NEWS Investigative Producer James Gordon Meek at 5:02 PM on August 1, 2013.

      USFS Public Affairs Specialist ‘Jennifer Jones’ now CONFIRMS to James Gordon Meek that an AFUE study WAS taking place in Yarnell on June 30, 2013.

      It is also now obvious that in that half-hour since her last email to Meeks… she was TOLD to ‘inform’ him that he would now have to submit an official FOIA to get those recordings.

      She was probably TOLD to do that in either some phone calls during that half hour… or perhaps in one of the UNREDACTED emails ( or even in an email that has been OMITTED from their response to the FOIA for ALL these Yarnell related emails ).

      Either way… here is the actual ‘August 1’ email exchange continuing between USFS employee Jennifer Jones and ABC NEWS Investigative Producer James Meek…

      She also ‘knows enough’ now about the existing AFUE RECORDINGS to tell Meek that further requests are going to have to go through the USFS ‘Regional’ office out there in Arizona ( as in… where USDA OGC lawyer Steve Hattenbach works )…

      ——————————————————————————————–
      From: Jennifer Jones E-FS;
      Sent: August 1. 2013, 5:02 PM
      To: James Gordon Meek ( Investigative Producer for ABC NEWS )
      Subject: AFUE Study Aerial Recordings

      Hi James…

      I have confirmed that an Aerial Firefighting Use and Effectiveness (AFUE) study crew was in the vicinity of the Yarnell Hill fire when the accident with the Granite Mountain Hotshot Crew occurred and WAS RECORDING AUDIO.

      The audio recordings HAVE been turned over to the Yarnell Hill fire accident investigation team.

      Per our conversation, you will need to submit a Freedom of Information Act (FOIA) request for them.

      Information about how to do that is available on this website
      http://www.fs.fed.us/irn/foia/

      I am still waiting to hear back from our southwest regional office staff about the best point of contact for you to request any other audio recordings that may exist, they have told me they will let me know by tomorrow.

      Hope that helps, if you have any additional questions or need more information, let me know, thanks!

      Jennifer Jones, APR Public Affairs Specialist U.S. Forest Service
      Washington Office, Fire and Aviation Management
      National fnteragency Fire Center
      Office (208) 387-5437
      Mobile (208) 631-XXXX
      ——————————————————————————————

      NOTE: James Gordon Meek responds immediately and says he will send the FOIA for the now-known-to-exist AFUE RECORDINGS the very next day…

      ——————————————————————————————
      From: Meek, James ( ABC NEWS – Investigative Producer )
      Sent: 1 Aug 2013 20:23:39 -0400
      To: Jones, Jennifer E -FS
      Subject: Re: AFUE Study Recordings

      Thanks. I’ll send the FOIA tonight.
      ——————————————————————————————

      Continued next ‘Reply’…

      • says

        AFUE Study Recordings——–

        There is plenty of evidence existing to not disclose these recordings which attaches more importance to them and makes us wonder what can possibly be contained there?

        • says

          FOIA information and radio transmissions —
          By what criteria other than personal info can this Ido be redacted? I am speaking specifically of radio communication between pilots and those on the ground from 3:00-4:30 p.m. On June 30,2013.

          • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

            Reply to Diane lomas post on February 9, 2017 at 1:53 pm

            >> Diane lomas said…
            >>
            >> FOIA information and radio transmissions —
            >> By what criteria other than personal info can this Ido be redacted?

            The U.S. Government official FOIA website
            Frequently Asked Questions
            https://www.foia.gov/faq.html

            From that official U.S. Government website…
            ———————————————————————
            What are FOIA EXEMPTIONS?

            Not all records are required to be released under the FOIA. Congress established NINE exemptions from disclosure for certain categories of information to protect against certain harms, such as an invasion of personal privacy, or harm to law enforcement investigations. The FOIA authorizes agencies to withhold information when they reasonably foresee that disclosure would harm an interest protected by one of these nine exemptions. The nine exemptions are described below.

            Exemption 1: Information that is classified to protect national security.

            Exemption 2: Information related solely to the internal personnel rules and practices of an agency.

            Exemption 3: Information that is prohibited from disclosure by another federal law.

            Exemption 4: Trade secrets or commercial or financial information that is confidential or privileged.

            Exemption 5: Privileged communications within or between agencies, including those protected by the:

            – Deliberative Process Privilege ( provided the records were created less than 25 years before the date on which they were requested )
            – Attorney-Work Product Privilege
            – Attorney-Client Privilege

            Exemption 6: Information that, if disclosed, would invade another individual’s personal privacy.

            Exemption 7: Information compiled for law enforcement purposes that:

            – 7(A). Could reasonably be expected to interfere with enforcement proceedings
            – 7(B). Would deprive a person of a right to a fair trial or an impartial adjudication
            – 7(C). Could reasonably be expected to constitute an unwarranted invasion of personal privacy
            – 7(D). Could reasonably be expected to disclose the identity of a confidential source
            – 7(E). Would disclose techniques and procedures for law enforcement investigations or prosecutions
            – 7(F). Could reasonably be expected to endanger the life or physical safety of any individual

            Exemption 8: Information that concerns the supervision of financial institutions.

            Exemption 9: Geological information on wells.

            What are FOIA EXCLUSIONS?

            Congress has provided special protection in the FOIA for three narrow categories of law enforcement and national security records. The provisions protecting those records are known as “exclusions.” The first exclusion protects the existence of an ongoing criminal law enforcement investigation when the subject of the investigation is unaware that it is pending and disclosure could reasonably be expected to interfere with enforcement proceedings. The second exclusion is limited to criminal law enforcement agencies and protects the existence of informant records when the informant’s status has not been officially confirmed.. The third exclusion is limited to the Federal Bureau of Investigation and protects the existence of foreign intelligence or counterintelligence, or international terrorism records when the existence of such records is classified. Records falling within an exclusion are not subject to the requirements of the FOIA. So, when an office or agency responds to your request, its response will encompass those records that are subject to the FOIA.
            ———————————————————————

            The most ‘abused’ exemption ( and, indeed, the one used most often by the U.S. Forestry Service as they try to make it look like they are cooperating but also still trying to ‘hide’ information ) is the ‘Deliberative Process’ exemption.

            Some Federal managers and employees ( like those at U.S. Forestry ) think that ‘exemption’ means they can ‘exclude’ anything that shows anyone even asking other managers or employees a ‘question’… and then also redacting the ‘responses’ they might be receiving to those ‘questions’.

            That was never the ‘intent’ of the ‘Deliberative Process’ FOIA exemption.

            When U.S. Forestry finally supplied the written ‘Unit Logs’ from all of the Blue Ridge Hotshots with regards to the Yarnell incident… they also tried to claim that the MASSIVE REDACTIONS they performed on THOSE ‘Unit Logs’ were due to what THEY called ‘Sensitive Information’.

            ‘Sensitive’… to WHO?… and WHY?

            They have never said.

            Look at the list of valid FOIA exemptions above.

            There is nothing that says ‘Sensitive Information’.

            They ( USFS ) continue to think THEY can pretend to be a branch of the ‘military’ and make decisions about what information they think is ‘Sensitive’ ( or not ) like it was some kind of ‘National Security’ issue, or something.

            Total horseshit.

            If all Federal agencies were free to decide, for themselves, what information THEY consider to be ‘Sensitive’ or ‘Emnbarassing’… then the response to most FOIAs would be nothing but piles and piles of BLACK PAGES.

            >> Diane lomas also said…
            >>
            >> I am speaking specifically of radio communication between
            >> pilots and those on the ground from 3:00-4:30 p.m. On June 30,2013.

            When U.S. Forestry was finally forced to release the known-to-exist AFUE Air Study recordings ( made by their own employees being paid to participate in their own USFS-funded Aerial Firefighting Study )… someone at USFS still took the time to go through every recording and manually insert an audible ‘tone’ at every point in the recordings where the beginning of a transmission was identifying either the aircraft calling/responding, or the designations of the responders themselves.

            That was an enormous effort on someone’s part… yet they still ‘screwed up’ and forgot to insert ‘tones’ into the recordings when the airmen were actually using someone’s NAME while they were talking to them on the radio.

            But what that ‘effort’ demonstrates is that the USFS lawyers KNEW they could no longer keep the ‘recordings’ a secret under any of the NINE valid FOIA ‘exemptions’.

            The effort they made to ‘tone out’ personal aircraft identifications and call-signs just meant they were admitting the only valid FOIA ‘exemption’ they could ‘cling’ to would be the one(s) about ‘personal information’, or something.

            When the SAIT was also finally forced to release its own ‘evidence’ folder… it also included an ‘Aerial Firefighting Study’ folder.

            But even after all the effort made to ‘hide’ the identities of aircraft and airmen in the USFS FOIA release… the SAIT had made no such effort and there were no ‘tones’ inserted into THEIR copies of the recordings at all.

            It is still not known if that ‘Aerial Firefighting Study’ folder in the SAIT evidence package actually contains ALL of the ‘recordings’ made by the AFUE Air Study team on June 30, 2013.

            According to already-public USFS emails… AFUE team member and USFS employee Eric Panebaker handed an actual ‘hard drive’ over to the Yarnell SAIT investigation team on July 5, 2013, just after the SAIT had received its initial ‘Delegation of Authority’ to start their investigation.

            That known-to-exist ‘hard drive’ handed over to the SAIT just days after the tragedy supposedly contained EVERYTHING that Eric Panebaker and his fellow AFUE Air Study team members had been ‘recording’ on June 30, 2013.

            That ‘hard drive’ ( and the information on it ) was the ‘property’ of U.S. Forestry, since they ( and us taxpayers, of course ) were the ones paying for that ‘Study’ and for ALL of the hardware being used.

            But it is still NOT KNOWN if what was eventually contained in the SAIT ‘Aerial Firefighting Study’ evidence folder contains the TOTALITY of what was actually ON that known-to-exist ‘hard drive’ that Eric Panebaker handed to the SAIT on July 5, 2013.

            • Robert the Second says

              A couple links regarding Government and public records which includes any and all AFUE recordings and / or transcripts.

              18 USC 1663. Protection of Government Property – Protection of Public Records and Documents.

              https://www.justice.gov/usam/criminal-resource-manual-1663-protection-government-property-protection-public-records-and

              “There are several important aspects to this offense. First, it is a specific intent crime. This means that the defendant must act intentionally with knowledge that he is violating the law. See United States v. Simpson, 460 F.2d 515, 518 (9th Cir. 1972). Moreover, one case has suggested that this specific intent requires that the defendant know that the documents involved are public records. See United States v. DeGroat, 30 F. 764, 765 (E.D.Mich. 1887).

              “The acts proscribed by this section are defined broadly. Essentially three types of conduct are prohibited by 18 U.S.C. § 2071(a). These are: (1) concealment, removal, mutilation, obliteration or destruction of records; (2) any attempt to commit these proscribed acts; and (3) carrying away any record with the intent to conceal, remove, mutilate or destroy it. It should be noted that all of these acts involve either misappropriation of or damage to public records. ….”

              18 USC 1664. Protection of Government Property – Theft of Government Information

              ttps://www.justice.gov/usam/criminal-resource-manual-1664-protection-government-property-theft-government-information

              “Section 641 of Title 18 prohibits theft or receipt of stolen government information as well as theft of the documents, computer discs, etc., that contain the information. ….”

              ” … the Criminal Division believes that it is inappropriate to bring a prosecution under 18 U.S.C. § 641 when: (1) the subject of the theft is intangible property, i.e., government information owned by, or under the care, custody, or control of the United States; (2) the defendant obtained or used the property primarily for the purpose of disseminating it to the public; …”

              • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

                Yes.

                Anyone who has the ‘power to subpoena’ can issue one to just about anyone, for just about anything.

                That includes ‘depositions’… which can happen outside of a courtroom but you are still ‘under oath’ and required to tell “The TRUTH, the WHOLE truth and nothing BUT the TRUTH” and subject to the same potential perjury charges as would be the case in an actual courtroom.

                In all cases… a person still has the right the take the ‘5th ammendment’. ( and not answer any questions )… but remember that many people are confused about the 5th amendment.

                It can only be invoked if you think answering the question(s) might lead to your OWN ‘self-incrimination’.

                You can’t invoke the 5th amendment just because you think answering a certain question might be bad for someone ELSE.

                In other words… you can’t invoke the 5th amendment and refuse to answer question(s) just to protect your ‘buddies’.

    • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

      USFS EMAILS ( continued )…

      So now that USFS employee Jennifer Jones has CONFIRMED to ABC NEWS Investigative Producer James Meek ( at 5:02 PM on August 1, 2013 ) that the AFUE RECORDINGS he was asking her about really DO exist… here comes the ABC NEWS FOIA request.

      It actually wasn’t the very next day, as Meek had indicated he would do.

      It obviously went through the ABC NEWS lawyers first so they could ‘get it right’… and include all the legal ‘shots across the bow’ to USFS about WHY they should not ( and could not ) try to ‘withhold’ the now-known-to-exist AFUE RECORDINGS.

      On August 5, 2013, ABC NEWS Investigative Reporter Producer James Gordon Meek
      then made his first FOIA request directly to US Forestry.

      NOTE: ABC Producer James Gordon Meek still did not know, as of this email, that these AFUE recordings were already being referred to by ‘people in the know’ ( and by Mike Dudley and his SAIT team, who had the actual ‘raw recordings’ for over a month now ) as the ‘Panebaker Recordings’, after AFUE Group Member and USFS employee Eric Panebaker.

      This is a VERY well written FOIA request coming from ABC NEWS…

      ——————————————————————————————-
      From: Meek, James – ABC NEWS Producer – ( mailto: James.Meek (at) abc.com )
      Sent: Monday, August 05, 2013 12:39 AM
      To: Jones, Jennifer E-FS; Chambers, Lawrence F -FS; FS-wo FOIA
      Cc: Galli, Cindy
      Subject: ABC NEWS FOIA REQUEST: Yarnell Fire radio recordings by USFS

      JAMES GORDON MEEK Investigative Producer ABC NEWS
      1717 Desales St., NW, Suite 440
      Washington, DC 20036 (202) 236-1931 james.meek@abc.com

      United States Forest Service
      U.S. Department of Agriculture
      USDA Forest Service – FOIA Service Center
      1400 Independence Avenue, SW Mail Stop: 1143
      Washington, DC 20250-1143

      5 August 2013

      FREEDOM OF INFORMATION ACT REQUEST

      Dear Sir or Madam:

      ABC NEWS requests under the Freedom of Information Act the following sets of files which currently reside within the offices of the United States Forest Service of the United States Department of Agriculture:

      1) A copy of the audio files and/or tape recordings of all nearby radio traffic made by an Aerial Firefighting Use and Effectiveness (AFUE) study crew in the vicinity of the Yarnell Hill, Arizona, Fire on 30 June 2013, when the Prescott, Arizona, Fire Department’s Granite Mountain Interagency Hotshot Crew engaged the fire and 19 firefighters from the crew were subsequently killed by the blaze. The existence of these recordings in USFS holdings was confirmed in an email from public affairs officer Jennifer Jones on August 1, 2013 (attached).

      2) We also request a copy of any and all transcript or transcripts of the above mentioned audio files and/or tape recordings.

      3) I also request a copy of any memoranda, reports or other documents concerning the above mentioned tape recordings and/or digital audio files.

      This FOIA request is by a representative of the news media for news reporting purposes.

      This request should be placed into the FOIA processing fee category “representative of the news media,” and therefore no fees should be assessed for search, review nor duplication costs of the first 100 pages of records.

      I agree to pay reasonable costs associated with the reproduction of the requested records, up to a maximum of$200 without requesting my further permission.

      In order to assist you in properly classifying this non-commercial FOIA request, I assert that I am a professional journalist actively engaged in news reporting as an investigative producer in Washington, D.C., for ABC NEWS, a major news organization. The records I am requesting will be used for news reporting purposes. Please release all segregable and releasable portions in an expedited fashion.

      It will be highly inappropriate for the U.S. Forest Service to withhold these materials.

      For example, exemption b(6) and b(7)(c) would not be applicable.

      Exemption 6 protects information about individuals in “personnel and medical files and similar files” when the disclosure of such information “would constitute a clearly unwarranted invasion of personal privacy.”

      Determining whether there is a clearly unwarranted invasion of personal privacy requires a balancing of the public’s right to disclosure against the individual’s right to privacy. The release of these materials would not be a clearly unwarranted invasion of personal privacy.

      Many of the individuals are deceased and no protectable privacy interest exists. Any residual family interest is strongly counterbalanced by the families’ interest in getting to the truth about this horrific incident, and in preventing any such future occurrence.

      Furthermore, the public interest in preventing future such disasters strongly dictates release.

      The Court of Appeals for the District of Columbia Circuit has declared that, “under Exemption 6, the presumption in favor of disclosure is as strong as can be found anywhere in the Act.”

      The D.C. Circuit has observed that if there is a public interest in disclosure that outweighs the privacy interest, the information should be disclosed.

      The President has issued instructions to agencies to presume disclosure.

      Presidential Memorandum for Heads of Executive Departments and Agencies Concerning the Freedom of lnformation Act, 74 Fed. Reg. 4683 (Jan. 21, 2009) emphasizes that the Freedom of Information Act reflects a “profound national commitment to ensuring an open Government” and directing agencies to “adopt a presumption in favor of disclosure.”

      ln this case, the public interest is strong because the information reveals the operations or activities of the government in carrying out a firefighting operation that led to the deaths of 19 firefighters.

      The U.S. Forest Service may be erroneously tempted to rely on the Favish case or the New York Times v. NASA case to deny access to these records. The Favish case is readily distinguishable because the Supreme Court ruled that the protectable privacy interest in the Favish death scene photographs was based on the family’s fears of “intense scrutiny by the media” and cultural traditions relating to the treatment of bodies.

      In this case, these factors are inapplicable; the subject matter is different and the families want to see the TRUTH come out about this incident.

      The New York Times case is also distinguishable because the purpose of withholding the records was to protect family members from the pain of hearing final words of loved ones. In that situation, the words had no probative value in learning what happened to astronauts. In the present case of the requested audio files or tapes, the communications recorded encompassed a broad sweep of time, not just the final moments, and more importantly, the communications help to inform the public of what transpired, given conflicting accounts.

      There is significant media and public interest about what went wrong at Yarnell Hill. The U.S. Forest Service should not deny access to the requested records because they may be embarrassing; that rationale is not permissible.

      Similarly, Exemption 7(C) provides protection for law enforcement information, the disclosure of which “could reasonably be expected to constitute an unwarranted invasion of personal privacy.”

      While the audio file or tape might be considered, loosely, law enforcement information, the exemption is also inapplicable for the reasons described above. The public interest in this material outweighs the negligible privacy interest.

      The presumption of openness described by the PRESIDENT in his Freedom of Information Act Memorandum applies as well.

      Sincerely,
      James Gordon Meek ( Investigative Producer for ABC NEWS )
      ——————————————————————————–

      Continued next ‘Reply’…

    • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

      USFS EMAILS ( continued )…

      At the same time that ABC NEWS Investigative Producer James Meek submitted that FOIA for the AFUE RECORDINGS… he also ( apparently ) sent an email directly to USFS Director ( at that time ) Tom Harbor requesting to know the ‘chain of custody’ for the AFUE RECORDINGS that were now known to exist.

      I say ‘apparently’ because while we see ‘Jennifer Jones’ responding to this ‘request’ ( and referring to Meek’s request to Harbor )… USFS did NOT supply the actual email that Meek sent to Harbor.

      NOTE: The following email is the same one already printed up above in the “SHORT STORY” section which PROVES that USFS Mike Dudley and his SAIT were in full possession of a ‘hard drive’ supposedly containing ALL of the AFUE recordings as early as July 5 or July 6, 2013.

      So TWO days after receiving the ABC NEWS FOIA request… on August 7, 2013… USFS Press Officer ‘Jennifer Jones’ responded to ABC Investigative Producer James Gordon Meek…

      Notice, at this point, that USFS Press Officer ‘Jennifer Jones’ is now ‘including’ the absolute head of US Forestry ( at that time ), ‘Tom Harbour’, on the emails back to ABC NEWS… and Jones mentions that this ‘timeline of possession’ and ‘chain of custody’ information regarding the ‘Panebaker AFUE Recordings’ was the result of a direct ‘request’ from ABC News Producer James Meek sent to USFS Director ‘Tom Harbour’ himself…

      ——————————————————————————–
      From: Jones, Jennifer E -FS ( mailto – jejones (at) fs.fed.us )
      Sent: Wednesday, August 07, 2013 11:42 AM
      To: Meek, James ( ABC NEWS Investigative Producer )
      Cc: Harbour, Tom -FS; Drelick, Donna -FS; Kay, Leo F -FS
      Subject: AFUE Recordings Info

      To: James Gordon Meek
      ABC NEWS Investigative Producer
      24-hour mobile/text: 202-236-XXXX james.meek (at) abc.com

      Hi James, per your request to Tom Harbour, here is information on the chain of custody of the AFUE recordings – if you have any questions about this, please let me know, thanks!

      June 30, 2013 – A U.S. Forest Service employee who was with the AFUE group when they were recording the data on the Yarnell Hill Fire asked the group to provide him with all of the data that they had collected.

      July 1, 2013 – The U.S. Forest Service employee took possession of the data and contacted their supervisor to find out when the Serious Accident Investigation Team (SAIT) would be arriving in Phoenix and how the AFUE data could be provided to them.

      July 4, 2013 – The U.S. Forest Service employee met with the SAIT and told them that they had raw data from the AFUE group that was on the Yarnell Hill fire on the day of the incident.

      July 5 or 6, 2013 – The U.S. Forest Service employee passed off the hard drive containing the data to an SAIT team member.

      Jennifer Jones, APR Public Affairs Specialist U.S. Forest Service
      Washington Office, Fire and Aviation Management
      National lnteragency Fire Center
      Office (208) 387-5437
      Mobile (208) 631-0406
      ——————————————————————————————–

      2 minutes later.. ABC NEWS Investigative Producer James Gordon Meek ‘acknowledges’ the email he just received from ‘Jennifer Jones’… ( and CCs ‘Tom Harbour’ as well )…

      ——————————————————————————————–
      From: Meek, James
      Sent: 7 Aug 2013 11:44:45 -0400
      To: Jones, Jennifer E -FS
      Cc: Harbour, Tom -FS;Drelick, Donna -FS;Kay, Leo F -FS;Galli, Cindy
      Subject: RE: AFUE Recordings Info

      Thank you.
      ———————————————————————————————

      9 minutes later… ABC Investigative Producer James Gordon Meek sends this ‘followup’ email to USFS Director ‘Tom Harbour’ himself… with the ‘chain of possession’ timeline on the AFUE recordings that Meek just received attached to the email…

      James Gordon Meek is ‘appreciative’ of the ‘chain of custody’ information… but he now wants to know whose ass he needs to light a fire under to get the ACTUAL RECORDINGS…

      ———————————————————————————————-
      From: Meek, James
      Sent: 7 Aug 2013 11:53:12 -0400
      To: Kay, Leo F -FS; Harbour, Tom -FS
      Subject: RE: AFUE Recordings Info

      Gentlemen – This is helpful. But if we could also determine today how to release the recordings as soon as possible to ABC News, I’d be grateful to get some guidance on that. I understand the sensitivities, but as I said to you both yesterday, and wrote in our FOIA request, the public interest clearly outweighs any impulse not to release it.

      The State of Arizona quickly released its audio recordings of DPS phone calls and radio traffic two weeks ago, so precedent has been established for the USFS to do it expeditiously, particularly in light of the fact that USFS officials failed to publicly disclose this evidence was collected on Yarnell Hill, much less disclose it to USFS leadership ( apparently ) or to Arizona’s Forester Scott Hunt or the Prescott Fire Department’s leadership prior to an ABC News inquiry on 1 August. I also offered in a call to Larry chambers last week to make our request outside of the FOIA process, and I received no guidance whatsoever.

      James Gordon Meek
      ABC NEWS Investigative Producer
      24-hour mobile/text: 202-236-1931 – james.meek (at) abc.com
      ———————————————————————————————-

      Continued next ‘Reply’…

      • Robert the Second says

        WTKTT,

        Thank you once again for all your thorough, informative posts. Please keep up your usual good work.

    • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

      USFS EMAILS ( continued )…

      In-between the time when USFS Public Affairs Specialist Jennifer Jones first admitted to ABC NEWS Inestigative Producer James Gordon Meek that the Yarnell AFUE recordings DID exist ( on August 1, 2013 ) and the time when ABC NEWS submitted it’s FOIA request for those recordings ( on August 5, 2013 ), Jennifer Jones was sent ‘another’ email to James Meek.

      On August 2, 2013, at 1:06 PM, USFS Public Affairs Specialist Jennifer Jones sent the following ‘new’ ( unsolicited ) followup email to ABC NEWS Investigative Producer James Gordon Meek.

      It contains ‘other information’ that Jones had now been ‘fed’ ( by others ) about ‘audio recordings’ that might exist…

      ———————————————————————————————
      From: Jones, Jennifer E -FS ( jejones (at) fs.fed.us )
      Sent: Aug 2, 2013, at 1:06 PM
      To: Meek, James ( ABC NEWS Investigative Producer )
      Subject: Airtanker/Dispatch Recording Follow-up

      Hi James, per our conversations over the last couple of days, here is additional info I have gained pertaining to any audio recordings that might exist in relation to the Yarnell Hill Fire:

      * The regional dispatch center, ( Southwest Coordination Center in Albuquerque, NM ) does not record audio nor do airtanker bases.

      * Audio recordings may or may not have been made at local dispatch centers, such as the Prescott dispatch center. To find out what recordings may exist, and to request copies, please contact Carrie Dennett, public affairs officer for the Arizona State Forestry Division, her email is carriedennett (at) azsf.gov

      * In case you’re interested, here is a link to the Yarnell Hill fire aircraft log. It has all the information on the aircraft that were dispatched, the Estimated Time of Arrivals as well as the information about the weather hold at the Prescott dispatch center for the airtankers. I am told by staff there is an error in the 6/30 1731 log entry where it states that T-911 (DC-10) was coming from Prescott, apparently it was flying out of Mesa-Gateway.

      http://fire.az.gov/node/409/attachment/newest

      Hope that helps, thanks!

      Jennifer Jones, APR Public Affairs Specialist – U.S. Forest Service
      Washington Office, Fire and Aviation Management
      National lnteragency Fire Center
      Office (208) 387-5437
      Mobile (208) 631-XXXX
      ———————————————————————————————

      Then James Gordon Meek responded…

      ———————————————————————————————
      From: Meek, James ( ABC NEWS – Investigative Producer )
      Sent: 2 Aug 2013 16:22:59 -0400
      To: Jones, Jennifer E -FS
      Subject: Re: Airtanker/Dispatch Recording Follow-up

      Thanks. But the USFS study aircraft DID record radio traffic, you said yesterday.
      ———————————————————————————————-

      NOTE: The ‘quote’ that James Gordon Meek is referring to from ‘yesterday’ ( August 1 ) is when Jennifer Jones confirmed that the AFUE Study in Yarnell WAS ‘recording audio’…

      The day before ( August 1 ) Jennifer Jones had finally admitted to Meek…

      “Hi James, I have confirmed that an Aerial Firefighting Use and Effectiveness (AFUE) study crew was in the vicinity of the Yarnell Hill fire when the accident with the Granite Mountain Hotshot Crew occurred and WAS RECORDING AUDIO.”

      NOTE: All of the ’email exchanges’ above ( including the FOIA request from ABC NEWS Investigative Producer ) eventually led to the ‘release’ of REDACTED copies of ( just SOME of? ) the Panabaker AFUE raw audio and video recordings that Mike Dudley and the SAIT already had in their possession since just days after the tragedy.

      What was eventually ‘released’ in reponse to this ABC NEWS FOIA request were copies of the recordings whereby someone had actually taken the time to ‘TONE OUT’ all references to ANY ‘call signs’ or ‘aircraft designations’ in ALL of the VIDEO and AUDIO recordings.

      It wasn’t until the SAIT was FORCED to release its ( supposedly ) complete ‘evidence folder’ that there were finally ‘unredacted’ copies of these AFUE recordings available… but it is still NOT KNOWN if that ‘Aerial Firefighting Study’ FOLDER that was in the FOIA-forced SAIT ‘evidence’ release contains ALL of the AFUE ‘raw-data’ that was on that original ‘hard-drive’ that was physically ‘handed over’ to the SAIT team just 5 days after the tragedy and immediately after they had ‘assembled’ in Arizona.

      The WHEREABOUTS of that ORIGINAL ‘hard-drive’ which ( supposedly ) contained
      ALL of the AFUE raw-data ( including possible Air-To-Ground radio channel recordings
      as well as Air-To-Air radio channel recordings ) is still UNKNOWN.

      • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

        Minor ‘typos’ in the first paragraph of the last post.

        I said ‘was sent’ when I should have just said ‘sent’.

        That August 2 email from Jennifer Jones to ABC NEWS Investigative Producer James Gordon Meek was just a ‘followup’ email that Jones herself SENT back to Meek.

        So that first paragraph above should have read like this…

        ————————————————————————
        In-between the time when USFS Public Affairs Specialist Jennifer Jones first admitted to ABC NEWS Investigative Producer James Gordon Meek that the Yarnell AFUE recordings DID exist ( on August 1, 2013 ) and the time when ABC NEWS submitted its FOIA request for those recordings ( on August 5, 2013 ), Jennifer Jones SENT ‘another’ email to James Meek.
        ————————————————————————-

      • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

        As for the following statement from Jennifer Jones in her August 2 ‘followup’
        email back to ABC NEWS Investigative Producer James Meek…

        * Audio recordings may or may not have been made at local dispatch centers,

        On October 18, 2013, ADOSH conducted their own in-person interview with Norval Tyler, the DIRECTOR of the Arizona State Forestry Dispatch Center.

        The very FIRST question he was asked was whether or not that ‘Dispatch Center’ had the ability to RECORD AUDIO… and Tyler said YES.

        From the very start of ADOSH’s interview with Norval Tyler…

        Q2 = Marshal Krotenberg, ADOSH Lead Investigator
        Q3 = Dave Larsen, WFA / ADOSH Investigator ( Rest in Peace )
        A = Norval Tyler, Director of the Arizona State Forestry Dispatch Center
        ——————————————————————————-
        36 Q3: Can I, can I get the name of the interviewee again? I didn’t, I didn’t catch
        37 that.
        38
        39 A: Norval Tyler; first name N-O-R-V-A-L, last name Tyler, T-Y-L-E-R.
        40
        41 Q3: Thank you very much.
        42
        43 Q2: Norval I-I – how is — how is the communication center working, currently?
        44
        45 A: How is it currently working? In what aspect?
        46
        47 Q2: Are all the features and functions that, uh, are intended to be functioning
        48 functioning as they should?
        49
        50 A: They are, yes.
        51
        52 Q2: Um, have there been any, uh, communication problems in the last, uh, year
        53 maybe that, that’s been problematic at the Deer Valley Center?
        54
        55 A: Nothing with the hardware that’s in place at Deer Valley.
        56
        57 Q2: Um, does, uh, d- do you have the ability to, uh, record audio?
        58
        59 A: We do.
        60
        61 Q2: And has that always – was that in place in June?
        62
        63 A: There are audio recording capabilities on our – not on all our consoles, but
        64 they – there are on three-quarters of the consoles in there.

        ——————————————————————————–

      • Robert the Second says

        Diane,

        Maybe …. but it’s obviously not in either the SAIR or the ADOSH Reports.

        I would hope and think that it was at least considered and/or discussed amongst the GMHS Crew itself and/or with the Squad Bosses and/or with Acting Supt. Steed!

        However, I doubt it would have been discussed with DIVS A Marsh because that would have been a Crew decision, not necessarily a DIVS one.

    • says

      Eric Panebaker

      I am trying to understand Eric Panebaker’s role in the firefighting evidence of the Yarnell Hill Fire.
      Was he an employee of the USFS when he collected this evidence?
      The air tanker study was done by the USFS from what I have read.
      Does any of this overrule FOIA requests?

      It appears that all legal avenues have been pursued through FOIA requests etc. Are there other options such as assistance from senators and govt officials to release this information?

      • Robert the Second says

        Diane,

        Eric Panebaker works in Region 5 – Pacific Southwest (Calif., Hawaii, Guam, Trust Territories) for R5, Regional Office,Fire And Aviation Management. Email address is ericpanebaker@fs.fed.us.

        Yes, the air tanker study was done by the USFS, a Federal Agency

        The FOIA request route is the means of access.

        All legal avenues are in the process of being pursued through FOIA requests ,etc.

        The other options such as assistance from senators relies on information form and govt officials to release this information.

  7. Gary Olson says

    The Woodsman wrote,

    Trump’s message seems to be in response to a intel agency purposely sowing mis-information in order to benefit certain political establishments over another in the midst of an election & transfer of power.

    and

    I’m not well researched on that entire story about the Russian hacking our election which turned out to be made up by our own intel community out of whole cloth.

    And I say, I missed that whole thing but I don’t watch that much Fox News?. The only part of that I’m aware of is that Brennan and everyone else has said from day one there were no indication the vote tallies had been manipulated by anyone or that any voting machines were hacked into?

    The only part of that issue I am aware of, are allegations that the Russian intelligence services, primarily the GRU, released damaging information from Podesta’s (and others in the Clinton campaign) email account to embarrass and discredit Hillary Clinton and although the Russians had similar information from hacks into the Republican campaign they didn’t release any of that through a third party to Julian Assange to publish in Wikileaks.

    Bottom line…I have never heard anyone say Trump didn’t win legitimately by having the needed votes to win the Electoral College and therefore legitimately won the election. The only thing that is an unknown…is however many people voted for Trump or didn’t vote for Hillary by either staying home or giving a protest for Gary Johnson or Jill Stein.

    That is why I am following both Obama’s and Clinton’s example and accepting Trump as the legitimate President of the United States. I think that is part of my job as an American Citizen. Trump won and that is why I think it is part of his job to now stop SHITTING IN FRONT OF ME AND THEN RUBBING MY NOSE IN IT while he smirks that tiny round hole in his face he calls his mouth and making nonsensical and erratic gestures with his tiny hands because it’s distracting. BUT…he can’t seem to stop himself…or control his mouth or tiny hand gestures.

    President Trump is NOT the President of the Republican Party Base…he is the President of the United States and I think he should start acting like it.

    Which is just one reason I am a far better man than he is. Why is it important if he keeps hurting my feelings? Because there are tens of millions of people just like me and the biggest tool a President has is the support of the majority American people and without that…he will have a failed Presidency and then we will all lose.

    Oh and one more thing. From your description of yourself and socioeconomic status…Donald Trump would,t walk across the street to piss on you if you were on fire. I believe however you think President Obama or Hillary were or are…both of them would have least pissed on you.

    • Gary Olson says

      Oh and one more thing. From your description of yourself and socioeconomic status…Donald Trump wouldn’t walk across the street to piss on you if you were on fire. I firmly believe however, regardless of what you think about President Obama and Hillary…both of them will at least piss on you, especially if you are on fire.

      • Gary Olson says

        OK…just ONE more post on this subject and then I am going to let it go. I got some ridin’ to do.

        The other day I mentioned the vast army of private contractors who made and are still making the wars of both Iraq and Afghanistan possible while keeping troop levels at artificially low numbers.

        This has enabled private companies like former Vice President Dick Cheney’s firm Halliburton to make unimaginable profits from those wars. Halliburton focuses on service jobs like truck drivers but other firms hire private armies of security contractors. I used to work with three guys who disappeared to that part of the world several years ago to work as security contractors.

        The founder of what was the biggest and most successful mercenary firm was called Blackwater (my former partner went to work for them in about 2004) and was named Erik Prince. Blackwater did have the contract to provide security for all of the state department staff but were finally put out of business in name only after several of them lit up a roundabout with automatic weapons after somebody’s car backfired and they killed a couple of dozen Iraqi civilians.

        Erik Prince then went on to rename Blackwater and start building a private army for the United Arab Emirates because their ruling class is not the same as the majority of their citizens so they need mercs who will kill their own people on demand. Erik Prince is now working for the Trump transition team hiring executives to run the federal government.

        Guess who is Erik Prince’s sister is? That’s right, she is President Trump’s pick to be the Secretary of Education…Betsy Devos, who made a name for herself, other than by being the heiress to Amway, by privatizing schools in Michigan. And that is now what she is going to try and do nationwide with lots of Department of Education money. She and her Republican donors then own the companies that run the private schools and they make a butt load of money, taxpayer money then goes to their bottom line rather than into educating children or paying teachers livable wages.

        Republican politicians equals privatization because they and their donors can make unimaginable wealth off of the sweat of men like the Woodsman. Private prisons has been a huge best seller for them now nationwide for decades. Why should some of the people who read this blog care?

        A lot of forestry technician work is already contracted out, building fuel breaks, planting trees AND wildland firefighting. Hear me now and believe me later (SNL) IF you are voting for your pocketbooks, you had damn well better vote for a progressive next time or you are going to vote yourself out of any chance for a career because it will just be a few more short steps until almost all wildland firefighting is contracted out and then there goes any sense of normalcy, benefits, or pensions, while they hire the same type of team (retired USFS) who ran the Yarnell Hill Fire on contract.

        That is all those boys were, hired fire mercs who had no accountability when the shit hit the fan because many of them even refused to even show up and answer questions.

        You think it is bad now. Just wait a few more years years of Republican, especially Team Trump control and you might very well see it get a whole lot worse, especially after they privatize Medicare, Social Security and most of the rest of the federal government, not so they can do a better job or save money, but just so they can make UNIMAGINABLE profits, just sayin….

        • Gary Olson says

          Oh…and one more thing. Have you noticed that little round hole in Trump’s face he calls his mouth…looks just like the mouth on a blow up sex doll?

          Not that I ever seen one of those close up you understand. But check it out and you will see I am right.

          Hey great news everyone. I found President Trump’s illegitimate daughter (or at least ONE of his illegitimate daughters/children)…Dooneese.

          http://www.nbc.com/saturday-night-live/video/the-lawrence-welk-show/n12318?snl=1

        • Woodsman says

          Gary,

          Thank you for the background info & your honest concern with the ‘working class’ folks like me. I appreciate it. I may end up getting screwed but I haven’t met a politician yet that has my interests in mind over theirs That’s why I believe that I’m personally responsible for my own success or failure based on my own merits & God given abilities. It’s possible to create a system of equal opportunity but not one of equal outcomes for all people.

          I also get a huge kick out of the banter back & forth between two antique hotshot crew bosses about the fires of yesterday – good stuff! Your respective primary responsibilities were to ensure the general welfare of your crews & I’m certain you both did that at all times to the best of your abilities. I found it an enormous challenge being the leader of a type 2 hand crew which was fraught with many disadvantages over what both you & RTS enjoyed. Primarily you 2 enjoyed a more cohesive group of men that were accustomed to working together. The worst part for me was building & maintaining this type of cohesiveness with a gaggle of men thrown together by management at the last minute for a 14-21 day assignment populated with wff that many were total strangers to the rest. Maybe my leadership style or expectations of crew performance was too high but it was no cake walk holding these crews together to meet the mission while getting no one injured or killed – so HATS OFF to both of you! I’ve always respected the type 1 crews & at the same time been envious of the way they work so well together. I never asked any of my crew to do something I had not done before many times. I never ate before them or had better perks than they did. I looked out for them first & management later once my crew was taken care of.

          Thank you both (you & RTS – Bob too!) for the many lessons and laughs.

          I would ask you to consider in the future that ‘privatization’ & organizations manipulating government (the people) so that they can enjoy ‘UNIMAGINABLE profits’ off the backs of the taxpayers IS NOT the exclusive domain of one political party over another. ‘The guise’ of Republican or Democrat makes neither ‘right.’ ‘Climate Issues’, ‘Health Care Issues’ and many other ‘Issues’ are linked to many for-profit & ‘non-profit’ making simply obscene amounts of money. In fact, it’s ALL about the money. I would just ask the you ‘share the wealth’ when rightfully condemning this vile behavior across the board regardless of political affiliation. The behavior on behalf on 1 ideology over another still does not excuse the behavior or make it better or worse.

          The Clinton foundation, in 2014, had:
          “Total revenue (line 12) ……………………… $177,804,612.00
          Total grants to charity (line 13) ………………$5,160,385. 00
          Total expenses of………………………. ……….$91,281,145.00
          Expenses include: salaries (line 15)……….$34,838,106.00
          Fund raising fees (line 16a)……………….$850, 803.00
          Other expenses (line 17)……………$50,431,851.00!

          They list 486 employees (line 5).

          So it took 486 people who are paid $34.8 million and $91.3 million in fees and ‘expenses’, to give away $5.1 MILLION WHICH IS LESS THAN 3% OF TOTAL REVENUES!

          Line 22 shows ending year net assets/fund balances of $332,471,349.00 which is up $85,171,891 from the year prior!”

          Would you classify this example as ‘unimaginable profits?’ I’d add a link but I’d rather not get ‘Fostered’.

          Thanks to both you, RTS, & Bob for many lessons learned and the banter of 2 old hotshot crew bosses. I enjoy that! Good health & blessings to you guys!

          Woodsman

          Ps: and now I discover that one of you antique hotshot crew bosses has PLEDGED his own $$, time, and put HIS OWN reputation ON THE LINE for HIS LOVE of people generally & firefighters and their families specifically in order to find the truth, maximize lessons learned, & prevent incidents like Yarnell Hill from ever happening again!!! THAT is an act of unselfish LOVE. God bless you & keep you in good health, Mr. Schoeffler!

          • Gary Olson says

            Touché Woodsman! I think we can both agree there is no one (at least that we know of) in Washington who is looking out for either one of our interests over their own. And I know that you know, that I do not have a dog in this fight, my lot is cast and I am satisfied with it. I am however, deeply concerned for those are following in my footsteps just like I followed in Bob’s and I want everyone to have the same opportunities that Bob, Fred and I had to have a great career, or at least a good one fightin’ fire…because it was an E-Ticket ride to be sure.

            And no…my job (at least) was much easier than running any lesser crew. I did have to take a Type II SWFF crew (Hispanic not Native American) to Washington State ONCE for a few weeks in the fall for some control burns that got a way from them as a CLO. It was without a doubt the worst experience I ever had on a fire line and one I did not want in the first place because I knew exactly how it was going to be and I was thankfully able to resist ever doing it again.

            As you know, hotshot crews by comparison are tight, cohesive, bonded, units held together by a common purpose and a common goal….fight fire safely, aggressively and effectively while making as much money as is possible which all comes under the banner of esprit de corps. Anyone, or anything that got in the way of that was at risk from the group, especially anyone from inside the crew itself.

            Almost everything we did, from donating blood as a crew (I told them they had two choices, they could either give blood…or sweat it. Everyone always chose to freely give) to sitting in a bar together for hours while reliving the last fire, the next fire or some other fire was designed around building our cohesiveness and esprit de corps as a unit.

            As a result, anyone who was not willing and able to be a productive and happy cog in the engine of a high performance turbo charged firefighting machine was not there for very long one way or the other. Hotshot crews usually police themselves and impose their own common mores, ethos, crew culture and traditions on each member of the crew that is willing and able to accept those conditions to become, and then remain part of the crew.

            Most hotshot crews are built upon so much experience and inner strength with deep,reserves of highly capable and willing crew members, who can seamlessly move up, down or sideways in the hierarchy and command and control structure as the situation demands without a problem. Especially in today’s WF world because of the professionalization of hotshot crews with the administrative standards that are now required of every hotshot crew. In short, a good hotshot crew can be put on autopilot if the situation on conditions arise and they can safely and productively manage themselves while doing the right thing.

            Which need I say it again? Is why what happened on the Yarnell Hill Fire is so…inexplicable as in…something that can not be explained or understood.

            A good hotshot crew, and I never worked on anything but a good hotshot crew, are a true joy and pleasure to manage. A bad hotshot crew can be one of your worst nightmares come true and should be avoided at all costs. Fortunately…there aren’t many crews like the Carson Hotshots around. And I seriously doubt they have changed except to maybe get worse since I last worked around them in 1988.

            But hey…thanks for the slow pitch. I must be in a mood to pontificate today.

            • Robert the Second says

              Gary,

              You posted: “… what happened on the Yarnell Hill Fire is so…inexplicable as in…something that can not be explained or understood.”

              Exactly. It painfully and fatally defies logic.

              And I believe that the Carson Hot Shot Crew, under recent new management, has vastly improved.

              • Gary Olson says

                RTS said, “It painfully and fatally defies logic.”

                And I say, I will never be able to describe exactly how I feel as succinctly or as well as you have.

                and

                And I believe that the Carson Hot Shot Crew, under recent new management, has vastly improved.

                Thank God…those boys were more like an organized gang of hoodlums and thugs than hotshots back in the day. I used to feel so sorry for Al Lopez…they never gave him a break. I wouldn’t have lasted a week with that crew…I would have been disappeared if I hadn’t run away first. And I would have RUN..

                And I just have got to say it one more time with the Woodsman…you be the MAN!

          • Robert the Second says

            Woodyman,

            Once again, thank you for the kind words My Friend. We were obviously raised different, to stand up for what is right and what we believe in.

  8. Charlie says

    http://www.investigativemedia.com/womens-march-on-washington-jan-21-2017/_dsc0083/

    Agent orange slurry drop poster used during Dump Trump march in above link. This was interesting since some others are getting wise to the sickness and death caused by this secret ingredient infested ammonium sulfate and nitrate pollutant. Not only does it have its detrimental effects on humans, it instantly kills fish and other aquatic life then enters off into the Pacific Coast Ocean waters to cause the red bloom and the huge areas of dead ocean zones. Nitrogen and Phosphorous, the greater constituents of retardant, are the nutrients that feed these algae blooms that create the dead zones. Nitrates also come from sewage so combine the sewage with retardant and the algae bloom becomes even more abundant. In effect the agent orange retardant dumps are not only contributors to killing life but that of killing the planet. When the fish are all gone, then the planet itself becomes threatened. Sad part–these billion dollar retardant companies have all these facts–most of this is easily seen on Wikipedia, even to how retardant dumped on burning embers produces cyanide. Yet they are able to not only convince the public that this slop is good for us, but they can add certain “secret ingredients”–something they want to hide from public view since they are afraid these ingredients will be found for what they are–dangers to the health of people and pollutants to the environment. Fortunately there are a few wise people out there protesting the use of these poisons.

    Fred Shoeffler is becoming a hero in his own right. . He is suing to get his FOIA information. This type information should be instantly public because there are enough experienced and educated individuals with no hooks to be able to give unbiased opinions and advice to help prevent future casualties in the wild land fire fighting industry. They need every bit of that hidden and redacted information so they can explain the unthinkable–what the GMHS 19 were ;prodded into doing. By all accounts of experienced men of the ilk of Fred we know that every safety rule was broken, yet the Marsh and Steed, with Steed quite reluctant, did strictly follow orders, as did their subordinates to do the unthinkable in an Atom Bomb type wild fire even knowing weather conditions, the density of the manzanita, and the absolute gamble of lives with men armed with no more than pick axes (so called Pulaskis) to defend structures that could not even be defended with huge fire engines. On the death of these young men it is absolutely mandatory that their deaths and any information related to those deaths be made up to public scrutiny and wild land experienced fire men. Grand Jury should be convened to ascertain if criminal charges should be made. Unless all information is out and any responsible parties prosecuted, these practices will continue.

    There are a few who will continue in their quest for the truth in these wild fire disasters despite the billion dollar industry that wants to keep all truth hidden under the heroism banner by redactions, threats, and subterfuge. As citizens we applaud those citizens and wild land fire fighting elite who continue to work toward a better and safer wild land fire fighting situation. Many future lives will be saved in this work–generally young men in their 20’s, such as the GMHS young heroes who have had all their life deprived from them and the devastation it has brought to their families and loved ones.
    One can only give shame to those that have hidden the truth and had anything to do with causing this tragedy.

    If you really want to get the truth about Eric Marsh, go to the Prescott Fire Department and get your FOIA –you will be enlightened and many questions will be answered. Prescott Fire Department has been open and willing to answer questions to help people get at the truth and Joy has gotten all she asked there. Now the local Yarnell fire department, Peeples Valley Fire Departmen, and the FS are having to be sued to get any facts from them. They simply believe that the public does not have the right to their information without a court order. BLM will give you some information but at an exorbitant cost–yet these people sit in an office working for you. I hope Trump passes a law that when requested, this information should be published in the media so that all know what their public servants and these billion dollar industries are doing with their tax monies.

        • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

          It has ALWAYS been ‘highly likely’ that the Panebaker ‘Aerial Firefighting Use and Effectiveness’ ( AFUE ) team that was there ‘filming’ and ‘recording’ in Yarnell on Sunday, June 30, 2013 was ALSO recording the ‘Air To Ground’ radio channel traffic in the same way they were recording ALL of the ‘Air-To-Air’ radio channel traffic.

          As far as can be determined… it would have been a REQUIREMENT of ANY ‘AFUE’ team to be doing it.

          Documents related to this AFUE ‘Study’ state that the recording of ALL RADIO TRAFFIC ( including both the A2A and A2G channels ) is essential to the ‘Effectiveness’ part of the actual AFUE acronym.

          Government ‘Contracts’ being offered for ‘Aerial Modules’ to participate in this AFUE study state clearly that the recording of ALL RADIO TRAFFIC ( especially all A2A and A2G radio traffic ) is not ‘OPTIONAL’ for participation in the AFUE Study. It is an absolute REQUIREMENT.

          If the Panebaker AFUE team was NOT making contiguous recordings of BOTH the A2A and the A2G radio channel traffic on June 30, 2013… then it remains to be learned WHY they were NOT… because it seems like that was/is an absolute REQUIREMENT for the AFUE study ‘protocol’ itself.

      • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

        Reply to Charlie post on January 22, 2017 at 9:52 am

        >> Charlie said…
        >>
        >> Here is a link to give you a look into how much trouble Fred is
        >> having to get what should be an easy task–especially for a
        >> person of his standing.
        >>
        >> ( See link above )

        Back in the previous Chapter 24, I posted an email that was obtained via FOIA that was ‘authored’ ( back in April of 2014 ) by USDA ( United States Department of Agriculture ) OGC ( Office of General Counsel ) lawyer Steve Hattenbach.

        USDA OGC lawyer Steve Hattenbach ( based in the USDA Arizona Regional office ) was the one handling ( at that time ) FOIA requests directed at US Forestry regarding the Yarnell Hill Fire.

        In this email… we see USDA OGC lawyer Hattenbach telling US Forestry employees that he considers one of their ‘options’ is to have him simply REFUSE to respond to a valid ( legal ) FOIA request, if they ( the USFS employees ) don’t feel like responding to it.

        The SUBJECT of this FOIA request that Hattenbach was suggesting he was ‘inclined’ to just simply REFUSE to respond to was, in fact, the “Panebaker Air Study Videos”.

        Here is that original posting…

        http://www.investigativemedia.com/please-begin-yarnell-hill-fire-chapter-xxiv-here/#comment-348378

        On October 1, 2016 at 3:08 pm, WantsToKnowTheTruth posted…

        Speaking of the ‘infamous Steve Hattenbach’, the USDA ‘Office of General Counsel’ ( OGC ) lawyer who was ‘helping’ US Forestry hide information regarding the Yarnell Hill Fire…

        Here is USDA OGC lawyer Steve Hattenbach communicating directly with US Forestry employees asking them if he should just go ahead and flat-out REFUSE to fulfill valid, legal ‘Freedom of Information Act’ ( FOIA ) requests coming from the Arizona ADOSH investigators.

        This was just one in a series of FOIA requests whereby ADOSH was trying to obtain copies of the ‘Panebaker AFUE Air Study’ videos shot in Yarnell that were already known to exist and were already known to have been in the possession of Mike Dudley, Jim Karels, and the rest of the SAIT investigation ‘team’.

        Your tax dollars at work…

        ————————————————————————————–
        From: Hattenbach, Steve – OGC ( Lawyer – USDA Office of General Counsel )
        Sent: Tuesday, April 22, 2014 10:51 AM
        To: Joyner, Calvin -FS; Agpaoa, Liz -FS
        Cc: Daniels, Janine -FS; VanBruggen, Bill -FS
        Subject: Yarnell Hill

        Cal, Liz, Bill,

        I would like 30 minutes with you to discuss 3 topics related to inquiries about Yarnell Hill.

        First: Attached is the draft response letter back to ADOSH from your employees responsive to the February request. It has been reviewed and approved by each employee. I simply want to run it by you before I send it.

        Second: Attached is a SECOND ( FOIA ) request from ADOSH. When I sent my letters offering written questions from ADOSH for unanswered or remaining questions, I was not anticipating multiple requests. However, I am not sure we want to deny this on that basis alone.

        The referenced video is publicly posted on YouTube by our recent FOIA requestor.

        http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y07WjZGdJQ4

        This video was released as part of the air retardant study videos released by Washington last year. There is one person in the agency named Panebaker who is a Forestry tech in R4. I do not know whether that is the person who the video is ascribed to. I can speculate the purpose of the questions. I asked my WO ( USDA OGC Washingtion Office ) for direction or advice on April 4th and received none. I thought I’d run this by you also.

        Options:

        1). I refuse.

        2). Someone (me) tries to figure out if we know who took the video and try to answer the questions.

        Third: AZ Attorney General has asked me several questions verbally.

        I am inclined to REFUSE to provide further information however I wanted to run that by you as well.

        Steve Hattenbach ( Lawyer – USDA OGC )
        ———————————————————————————————-

      • Gary Olson says

        OMG! My already sky high opinion of RTS just shot up into outer space. Now there is a MAN who doesn’t **** around and puts his money and time were his mouth is.

        I take back everything bad I have ever said about RTS and I now forgive him for being a shirker and begging for the day shift from Plans on the Murdock Basin Fire so he could have good light in order to change his hotshot crews messy diapers.

        • Gary Olson says

          OK…just one more war story. Hotshot crews always used to be instructed to carry at least two weeks worth of clothing and other supplies in their fire packs. This was almost always more than enough because we usually didn’t spend more than 3 to 5 days on any given fire.

          We normally pulled one really long shift when we first arrived of up to 36 hours with just cat naps on the line during breaks while CHAOS was in control and managing the fire. Then there would be either one or two follow up shifts of 16 hours or so with a goal of working 12 hours on the line.

          There would then typically be one or maybe two shifts of mop up while the fire team satisfied themselves we had caught the fire and then all of the mop up would be turned over to Type 2, 3 or 4 hand crews and engine crews with hose lays from roads or cat lines.

          A day shift went (in theory) from 0600 until 1800 and then the night shift worked (on the line) from 1800 until 0600 hours. Each shift would hold their positions on the line until relieved by the next shift. And of course with travel by army trucks, buses or vans to drop points and then long hikes up the mountain, those times could widely vary with significant delays..

          So anyway…the Murdock Basin Fire was very high up and almost to the tree line and I remember pulling about 14 shifts which as I said, was highly unusual. Of course to be on the line by 0600 counting travel time we would be awoken from our slumber next to the Klieg flood lights and huge diesel generators to in line for chow at 0400 when it was dark and cold and our boots would be frozen or at least very stiff from heavy dew, sweat and or water from the day before if we were working a day shift.

          We must have shifted to a day shift at some point (right before we were snowed in…in July probably) because the overhead asked me if my crew needed a day of R & R to do laundry. So I remember sitting up in the cold, wet, dark morning next to one of my squad bosses. And I said to him while I searched for my frozen Whites with 12 inch tops in the dark, “Hey… overhead wants to know if we need R&R to do laundry? How you doing on changes of underwear?

          Because of course underwear could get pretty crusty filled with bacteria with all of the sweating from hiking and taking messy dumps near the line (which was why Fred had the Payson Hotshots all wear diapers, but he had to change them) bad food etc. so crotch rot and funky butt could become a real problem without any showers or even with showers without a change of underwear. .

          He sat up in the dark…looked at me and replied, “Well, I got one pair on and another pair in my fire pack…so I guess I’m good for another two weeks.”

          So I told the overhead we didn’t need no stinkin’ R&R to do laundry. That’s how we fought fire back in the day, crotch rot and funky butt be damned when wildland firefighters were manly men, doing masculine things, in a macho way (SNL) and the sheep ran scared!

          • Gary Olson says

            Actually Fred is right. I am just an old bullshitter. The truth is…Fred just changed his squad bosses diapers and then they changed the diapers for their respective squads.

            • Robert the Second says

              Gary,

              Thanks for the remarks. However, it’s not quite how I remember the Murdoch Basin Fire.

              You posted: “I take back everything bad I have ever said about RTS and I now forgive him for being a shirker and begging for the day shift from Plans on the Murdock Basin Fire so he could have good light in order to change his hotshot crews messy diapers.”

              Not a shirker and definitely not begging for day shift. I never beg.

              And I think you were confused on and disappointed about lack of good light for your Hot Shot Crew.

              But that’s okay because I know you’re getting older and ore feeble and your memory is failing as evidenced by your “oh one more thing” posts.

              It’s okay

                • Gary Olson says

                  Oh…and one more thing. I’m pretty sure Fred did take the overhead up on their offer to take his crew to town for R&R so they could hand wash their panties and other unmentionables, so…

  9. WantsToKnowTheTruth says

    Reply to Woodsman post on January 21, 2017 at 12:54 pm

    >> Woodsman said…
    >>
    >> I am encouraged by Zinke as head of the Interior dept.
    >> There is no way that someone of his credentials will not
    >> see the problems in the current national fire policy. It’s
    >> blatantly obvious there are real problems with the way
    >> we manage wildfire on public lands currently.

    I wonder how he feels about ‘access to information’… because the Trump team just TODAY made that a ‘big issue’ for the Department of the Interior ( generally ) and the National Park Service ( specifically ).

    Montana Rep. Ryan Zinke, Trump’s nominee to lead the Deaprtment of the Interior ( DOI… which, of course, includes the National Park Service ( NPS ), BIA and Bureau of Land Management ( BLM )…

    …is mentioned in the following article about how the new administration immediately ‘shut down’ the National Park Service’s Twitter accounts ( ALL of them… INCLUDING the ones that report EMERGENCIES to the PUBLIC ) just because a photo was posted that compared the crowds at Obama’s inaUguration to the crowds at Trump’s inaUguration yesterday.

    Article Title: Trump Administration tells National Park Service to halt tweets
    Published: 8:05 PM ET, Sat January 21, 2017
    http://www.cnn.com/2017/01/21/politics/trump-national-park-service-tweets/

    Zinke does not appear to have been ‘involved’ in this ‘shutdown’ of the Twitter accounts just because Trump didn’t like what was showing up there, but he is mentioned in the article.

    From the article…
    ————————————————————————-
    After the National Park Service retweeted messages that negatively compared the crowd sizes at Barack Obama’s 2009 inauguration to Donald Trump’s inauguration Friday, representatives from the new administration asked the Interior Department’s digital team to temporarily STOP using Twitter — a decision the agency now claims was out of a concern the account was HACKED.
    ————————————————————————-

    So that’s the new ‘public media policy’ for this administration?

    If ANYTHING shows up that THEY simply don’t like… it is immediately going to be considered possible ‘hacking’ ( cough, cough )… and that alone will be their ‘justification’ for shutting things down and/or removing the posts they don’t like?

    Well, isn’t that special.

    What’s also ‘special’ is that their obsession with controlling Trump’s image also shut down some very IMPORTANT accounts…

    ————————————————————————-
    That order ( from the new administration ) to STOP tweeting impacted ALL accounts under the Interior Department’s purview, including individual National Park accounts that are, at times, used to communicate EMERGENCY MESSAGES to visitors.
    ————————————————————————-

    There were thousands upon thousands of visitors in Washington this weekend.

    As it turns out… MOST of them were there for the RALLIES today and not even for the inauguration itself, but BOTH ‘groups’ were actually ‘overlapping’ and there in/around the ‘National Parks’ at the same time, compounding the situation.

    What if some ’emergency’ had actually developed today in or around the MALL or the National Park(s) there in DC?

    Now we learn that at some point… and just because the new administration didn’t like a ‘Tweet’… there’s a chance that people might NOT have had access to ( perhaps ) important ’emergency’ information in the normal way if/when they needed it.

    Unbelievable.

    Once the Trump media control team ( Steve Bannon, Kellyanne Conway, etc. ) realized they had shut down ALL of the DOI / NPS Twitter accounts… including the ones that report EMERGENCIES… they issued an ‘update’ to their ‘social media guidance’ directives and allowed their Twitter accounts to become active again… but NOT for anything to do with any ‘policy’.

    They still want a ‘Social Media gag order’ in place on anything related to ‘Policy Matters’ until Zinke is confirmed.

    Again… from the article…
    ————————————————————————-
    “Now that social media guidance has been clarified, the Department and its bureaus should resume Twitter engagement as normal this weekend, with the exception of social media posts on the Secretary’s policy priorities, which will be outlined upon confirmation.”

    Trump’s nominee to lead the department, Montana Rep. Ryan Zinke, is expected to be confirmed in the near future.
    ————————————————————————-

    So the big question now is…

    If the ‘new administration’ is obviously going to be this paranoid about ‘bad news’ across the board… and this ‘trigger happy’ about shutting down existing public information accounts at Government Agencies ( like the National Park Service ) the moment they see something they simply don’t like…

    …what are the chances we will ever see the actual ‘investigation report’ that is now ‘in the works’ at the National Park Service with regards to the tragic ( and fatal ) ‘Chimney Tops 2’ fire?…

    >> On January 19, 2017 at 5:52 pm, calvin said…
    >>
    >> Investigation of the Chimny tops 2 fire coming.

    http://www.knoxnews.com/story/news/local/tennessee/2017/01/16/multi-agency-panel-review-chimney-tops-fire/96547690/

    • Woodsman says

      Why were federal employees of the federal agency known as the NPS ‘tweeting’ this type of content using the federal accounts? If that’s info deemed relevant or interesting & someone wants to share it, why not use your personal account to do so? A ‘comparison photo’ sounds like it would be possible to be interpreted as controversial so why take the chance of causing a problem for yourself? Bone headed move. Someone just lost their chances for the brainiac of the year award. I hope the person(s) who did that are already ‘retired in place’ or they just put their livelihood ie: pension at risk…and for what? Folks should take a deep breath! Haha

      Woodsman

    • says

      Just watched a video of the Pagami Fire. It was mentioned there that the rangers did not have radio reception once they were under the shelters. Made me wonder if Granite Mountain could communicate by radio once they were under their shelters?

      • Robert the Second says

        Diane, probably not, but it would not have mattered. It would have done them no good at all by then. They failed to use them to communicate with AA and/or OPS to advise them what they were intending to do BEFORE they left their perfectly good Safety Zone.

        And the GMHS knew or should have known radios don’t usually work well inside fire shelters from their basic training.

        • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

          Reply to Robert the Second ( RTS ) post on
          January 22, 2017 at 1:54 pm

          >> RTS said…
          >>
          >> And the GMHS knew or should have known radios don’t usually
          >> work well inside fire shelters from their basic training.

          Does the ‘basic training’ you speak of even ‘go there’?

          Because it certainly seems like Type 1 Hotshot Crew Superintendent Eric Marsh himself was totally unaware that his low-power handheld radio would probably not work well ( or at all ) once he covered himself with his metal-foil-lined fire shelter. ( sic: A Faraday Cage ).

          One of the last statements of his life ( to John Burfiend in ‘Bravo 33’ ) was…

          “We’ll give you a call when we are UNDER the sh– shelters”.

            • Robert the Second says

              WTKTT,

              Here is the 2014 Beaver Fire Entrapment Facilitated Learning Analysis (FLA) that also address weakened radio transmissions.

              http://wildfiretoday.com/documents/Beaver_Fire_Entrapment_FLA.pdf

              On page 26, “G. Using a Radio Inside Your Fire Shelter DIVS C had the presence of mind to slide the radio antenna out of the shelter for better radio transmissions.”

              “Firefighters should review the 2003 MTDC Fire Tech Tip – Fire
              Shelters Weaken Radio Transmissions from Hand-Held Radios:

              “In addition, on all incidents, all command channels should be inserted at the beginning of the radio com plan. This enabled DIVS C to successfully operate his radio in the darkness of the fire shelter.”

              • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

                Thank you for the links… but what I am still wondering is whether or not there is ANY mention of this chance that handhelds won’t work when ‘in shelter’ in the actual ‘basic training’ you already referred to.

                What you posted above are links to FLAs and obscure online ‘Equip Tips’.

                That’s fine… at least the ‘problem’ is ‘acknowledged’.

                But when you say ‘basic training’… I am assuming CLASSES.

                In other words… in whatever CLASS you have to take that teaches you how to deploy a fire shelter… is it absolutely PART of that CURRICULUM to ALSO mention the potential ‘radio malfunctions’ when fully ‘in shelter’?

                Or are WFFS being allowed to ‘walk away’ from these ‘basic CLASSES’ thinking their handheld radios can/should work just fine even when fully ‘in shelter’?

                • Robert the Second says

                  WTKTT,

                  You posted: “…. whether or not there is ANY mention of this chance that handhelds won’t work when ‘in shelter’ in the actual ‘basic training’ you already referred to.”

                  After researching the subject, I would have to agree that the hand-held radio issue is NOT addressed in any of the basic WFF training.

                  It was NOT discussed in the NWCG S-130 Basic WFF training course Instructor Guide.

                  Additionally, the “Large New Generation Fire Shelter Now Available” Fire Tech Tip (June 2005) by MTDC Project Leader Tony Petrillii (1994 South Canyon Fire survivor) makes NO mention of radio transmission troubles from within a deployed fire shelter.

                  https://www.fs.fed.us/t-d/pubs/pdfpubs/pdf05512325/pdf05512325dpi72.pdf

                  Here is the general NIFC link regarding Fire Shelters.

                  https://www.nifc.gov/fireShelt/fshelt_training.html

                  Unfortunately, the NFES 2710 2003 “New Generation Fire Shelter Booklet PMS 411” link was not functioning

                  FLAs and ‘Equip Tips’ should be part of ones training and annual refreshers.

                  So, hopefully, this is being taught in at least the basic WFF courses.

                  • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

                    Reply to Robert the Second post on
                    January 23, 2017 at 4:03 pm

                    >> RTS said…
                    >>
                    >> After researching the subject, I would have
                    >> to agree that the hand-held radio issue is
                    >> NOT addressed in any of the basic WFF
                    >> training.

                    I want to say ‘Thank you for confirming that’… but since that is really, really BAD NEWS… I’m not going to.

                    ‘Copy that’ will have to do ( for now ).

        • Woodsman says

          RTS,

          I read the complaint. Serious respect and debt of gratitude from me to you for your courage and perseverance in the matter. Possessing the brass ones you do to stay on task as you are may end up saving countless wff lives in the future. Thank you.

          Wood

          • Robert the Second says

            Woodsmith,

            Thanks for the compliments My Friend. It always is, was, and will be, first about The Truth, and then about WFF safety and saving lives and Lessons Learned.

            • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

              Reply to Robert the Second ( RTS ) post on
              January 22, 2017 at 2:43 pm

              >> RTS said…
              >>
              >> It always is, was, and will be, first about The Truth, and then
              >> about WFF safety and saving lives and Lessons Learned.

              Could not possibly AGREE more.

      • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

        Diane… the actual METAL FOIL layer/lining of a standard Wildland Fire Shelter will, in and of itself, tend to BLOCK RADIO TRANSMISSIONS ( both transmits and receives ) once you are underneath it.

        This is called the ‘Faraday Effect’ ( discovered by Michael Faraday in 1845 ) and it is well documented…

        https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Faraday_effect

        Getting ‘underneath’ or ‘inside’ a layer of metal foil creates what is known as a ‘Faraday CAGE’, which blocks radio transmissions…

        https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Faraday_cage

        —————————————————————-
        The reception or transmission of radio waves to or from an antenna within a Faraday cage is heavily attenuated or blocked by the cage.
        —————————————————————-

        Apparently… firefighters are not TAUGHT about this ‘Faraday effect’ in any of the training classes regarding the use of standard foil-based fire shelters.

        It is even apparent that Granite Mountain Superintendent Eric Marsh himself was unaware of this ‘effect’ since one of the last statements of his life ( captured in one of Aaron Hulburd’s video recordings ) was something he said over the radio to Air Attack ‘Bravo 33’ ( Thomas French, John Burfiend and Clint Cross )…

        “We’ll give you a call when we are UNDER the sh– shelters”.

        It still remains highly likely that the various ‘pops’ and ‘clicks’ heard in the same video shortly after that might actually have been Eric Marsh ( or other Hotshots out at the deployment site ) still trying to ‘communicate’ via radio with ‘Bravo 33’… but the fact that they were now UNDER that layer of METAL FOIL was preventing them from actually accomplishing that.

        There was absolutely no mention of any of this ( or even the obvious possibility of it ) in the official ‘Special Accident Investigation Report’… and so there was no chance of any of this even becoming a “Lesson to Learn” following the Yarnell tragedy.

        Firefighters would seem to remain in blissful ignorance… thinking that they will be able to fully use their radios even after they get UNDER these ‘shelters’.

          • Robert the Second says

            Diane,

            GTS and delve into how stressful, near death situations radically affects our thinking and information processing.

            Our brains basically shut down and cannot process any new information. We go into Tunnel vision mode and rely on those actions most familiar to us.

            Check into Daniel Goleman’s many research papers.

            • Robert the Second says

              Diane,

              Below are two Situational Awareness Matters website SAMatters.com articles, somewhat similar. They both include the same short video clip on SA.

              Here is their subtitle: “Helping individuals and teams understand human factors, reduce the impact of situational awareness barriers, and improve decision making under stress.”

              http://www.samatters.com/understanding-stress-part-5-tunnel-vision/

              http://www.samatters.com/explaining-tunnel-vision/

              • Robert the Second says

                Hopefully, you will read the above Situational Awareness article.

                This was a most fascinating and remarkable finding.

                “Researchers at Johns Hopkins University ran a series of audible and visual tests on human subjects, measuring the loss of acuity while engaging them in activities designed to narrow attention.

                “The results were a shocker.

                “The experiment was designed to [examine] tunnel vision – and it did. But a completely unexpected event occurred. While the vision was being tunneled, the performance of the audible control center decreased. That was not a typo. TUNNELED VISION LED TO DIMINISHED HEARING. Turns out, focusing on something intently led the audio cortex to turn down the volume.
                When the researchers performed an experiment to tunnel the hearing, the performance of the visual control center decreased. Again, no typo. TUNNELED HEARING LED TO DIMINISHED VISION. (EMPHASIS ADDED)

                “This led the researchers to conclude that A PERSON INTENTLY LISTENING TO AUDIBLE CUES, LIKE A RADIO OR CELL PHONE, COULD HAVE DIMINISHED VISUAL PERFORMANCE. It also led the researchers to conclude A PERSON INTENTLY FOCUSED ON SOMETHING VISUAL COULD HAVE DIMINISHED HEARING.
                (EMPHASIS ADDED)

                Given these findings, it is likely that this MAY have had some influence on WHY the GMHS did what they did when they left their perfectly good Safety Zone and walked down into a death trap.

                I am searching for the original study.

              • says

                RTS,

                Thank you-these articles are interesting and I can see how they can be relevant to the stress that the hotshots were under that day

                I hope that this is part of the training for wildland firefighters.

  10. Gary Olson says

    Just a quick note to tell you that after millions of years (or just a few IF you are a fundamentalist Christian) the Oregon Dunes are still here and wet. But I want to take a moment to say, “May God Bless the United States of America, our new President Elect and the peaceful transfer of power without tanks tearing up the streets.” Because if he succeeds…our great nation succeeds. Amen.

    • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

      A lot of history is about to made at NOON tomorrow.

      The moment Trump takes the ‘oath of office’… he will become all of the following…

      1. The person with the LOWEST approval rating ( by far ) of anyone to ever take the oath of office as long as such records have been kept.

      2. The FIRST person to ever take the oath of office with no prior experience whatsoever in ‘public service’.

      3. The FIRST person to ever take the oath of office who will be in direct violation of Article 1, section 9, clause 8 of the United States Constitution ( an impeachable offense ) the moment he finishes taking the oath itself.

      4. The OLDEST person to ever take the oath of office. Tomorrow, Donald Trump will be more than 70 and 1/2 years old, with the actual numbers being ‘all sevens’… 70 years, 7 months, 7 days old. At least it’s not ‘all snake-eyes’. He is reported to be averse to any kind of exercise and his favorite foods are rumored to be a toss-up between hamburgers and/or pork chops.

      5. The FIRST person to ever take the oath of office who has had MULTIPLE ( more than one ) failed marriages.

      6. The FIRST person to have ever LOST the popular vote in a presidential election by the largest margin in history ( he lost by at least 2.09 percent ) and still be able to actually take the oath of office.

      7. The ONLY person to ever take the oath of office who is ALREADY being actively ‘investigated’ by BOTH the FBI and the Senate Intelligence Committee for possible illegal ‘contacts’ and/or ‘collusions’ with foreign governments ( and/or ‘agents’ thereof ) during the course of his presidential campaign, and/or possible direct violations of the ‘Logan Act’.

      And that’s just the ‘short’ list.

        • Woodsman says

          So…we’re going to start adhering to the Constitution now? When did this happen? This is seriously the absolute best fucking news I’ve heard in the 21st century… maybe my entire life!!! I gotta run & tell my friends. Thank you, Jesus. I had just about given up all hope in the restoration of the rule of law in this country! Yessssssss!!!

          Woodcraft

        • Charlie says

          Here we have RTS–Fred Shoeffler–26 years a wild land fire fighter and superintendent being refused by the FS the FOIA requests he made. if this is not the ultimate proof of hiding information then what is? These FS people should be quickly producing the information Fred wants. Fred with his credentials deserves to have the information so he can give his valuable input and opinions on what might be done to improve wild land fire fighting techniques. It looks to be a cover up to the nth degree and at all costs in order to hide the truth.

          I do hope that Trump has installed a new man to run the Dept. of Agriculture. Someone who is honest and will quickly order the information to Wild Land elite fire fighters and public people interested in what is taking place with their tax dollars. Tax Dollars are secondary to Fred–he wants to know all about why and how those men were sent into a bad spot so that their lives were taken. Good God of Heaven and Hell, what kind of asshole would withhold information from men like RTS, Gary Olson, Bob Powers, Woodsman, Dr. Ted Putnam and other wild land fire fighters trying to improve conditions in wild land fire fighting–especially making it safer so that such killing incidents as the 19 deceased GMHS does not happen again.

          When every effort is made to withhold this information we see that the proof of a cover up is made and it is mandatory that whoever withholds this information should be immediately removed from office. These people are public servants, and may the media expose their wrong doing.

      • Woodsman says

        WTKTT,

        Here’s some thoughts on a very important matter that you have been talking about several times since the most recent election. The author is Karl Denniger of market ticker.org. The truth is Trump won in a landslide. This will take several posts.

        http://market-ticker.org/akcs-www?post=231656

        “That’ll be enough”

        “Let me make a few observations.

        First, eight years ago, and again four years ago, America elected a President. Fully half, give or take a couple of percent, disagreed with the outcome.

        There were exactly zero riots, fires, “mass protests” and similar following that outcome despite the fact that half the population vehemently disagreed with it.

        This time around, not so much.

        Now I want you think very carefully about the following.

        Most of the land mass of this nation is owned and resided upon by people who are in “red” (that is, the winner this time) areas of the country. With the exception of certain urban centers and right along the Mexican/Texas border there are very few “solid” blue areas.

        Those urban centers consume roughly 90% of the energy and food in this country yet they comprise 5-10% of the land mass. The “red” areas produce 95% of the food and energy this nation consumes and occupies 90-95% of the land mass.

        Do you really think that doing something like eliminating the last pieces of the structure our founding fathers put in place to prevent tyranny of the majority from being able to take hold is a good idea?

        A little history lesson: Prior to the 17th Amendment ratified in 1913 it was impossible for the Federal Government to shove any program down the throats of the 50 states. That’s because the state legislatures had effective control of the Senate and could recall their Senators.

        The House was elected by the people, the Senate was elected by The State Legislatures (and could be recalled by same) and The President was elected by the Electors, which were voted for in the popular vote.

        The latter provides a modest but real increase in the representation of “flyover” states; that is, those with lower population counts. In other words it is a check and balance in the ultimate tyranny of democracy.

        Yes, I said democracy is ultimately tyrannical — because it is.

        America is not a Democracy. It is a Constitutional Republic. This is very important; in a democracy 50%+1 can render the 50%-1 slaves by mere vote. Those who are in the minority in a democracy have no rights at all. Democracy is best represented by two wolves and a sheep voting on what’s for dinner.

        We are all minorities in some form or fashion. If you’re gay, black, yellow, male, female, whatever — all it takes is some other set of groups to get together and decide to oppress you, and in a democracy you’re ****ed.”

        • Woodsman says

          “America’s founding fathers put in place two systems to prevent this. The first was the bicameral legislature; a House elected by the people at large and a Senate elected by the State Legislators. This structure guaranteed that a landmass that amassed 50%+1 of the population (not even in the same state or states!) could not band together and shove down the throat of the States any policy measure because you needed the concurrence of more than half the state legislatures, where each were delegated but two votes to their Senators who were accountable to said legislature, to pass anything at all.

          This evaporated with the passage of the 17th Amendment. Now you only needed 50%+1 of the people in a given state to pass anything you wanted and they could all live in a tiny percentage of the land mass — such as is the case with Illinois where more than half the population lives in the immediate area of Chicago.

          What came right after that? Prohibition, shoved down the throat of the States, less than 7 years later!

          What also came after it was an unbridled expansion of the Federal Government into state affairs. Indeed, virtually everything became a “legitimate” federal matter. Why? Because it was impossible for the States to prevent it.

          Do you think the founders were wrong to do what they did, and the 17th Amendment corrected that?

          If you believe so then please consider this.

          Ever drive through small town America?

          Hell, how about “not-so-small-town” America?

          Many of these towns look like something out of a WWI or WWII European war movie. There was one factory or maybe two, but now it sits empty, weeds growing out of the parking lot as high as your head, all the windows are broken out and the roof has caved in. Over on the outskirts there’s a Walmart that pays $9/hour, but only offers 20 hours/week. The factory paid $30/hour, full-time, plus benefits and food, power, medicine and beer cost half of what it does now. 90% of what formerly were little diners and shops in the “center” of the town, which might have one actual traffic light, are gone — boarded up and often literally falling apart. There might be one bank left, a branch of a big national chain, and maybe an antique store. Maybe. All the factory jobs left for China and Mexico and everything else died when the middle-class incomes to support them disappeared. We did that as a nation with our “progressive” and “global” agenda driven by the 50%+1 that live in the closest big city 200 miles away.

          The locals who used to work in the fields within 10 or 20 miles from that town are all unemployed too. Why? Because the illegal Mexicans came and we refused to throw them out. They work for a few bucks a day in cash, no taxes, no unemployment, no nothing. No American can live on that; the embedded cost of just trying to stay alive would leave you with zero. But the Mexicans work hard and then sleep 10 to a single-room apartment, which incidentally is a total ****hole as you’d expect given that density of occupation. They don’t care; it’s better than what they had in Mexico, you see, and they can Western Union home some of the money. This is the face of “immigration”, mostly illegal, that really exists in this country. They brought their third-world ****hole here and while it’s a little bit better than what they had in the process of doing it they dragged us into the gutter with them.

          The people who lived in that town did and most who are still there do go to church every weekend, and some go again during the week, usually on Wednesday. There’s usually one, sometimes two churches. Every one of them has the word “God” or “Christ” in the name on the front. They mean it when it comes to their faith and in addition that’s where all the local people shake hands, exchange chit-chat on the last week and, for younger people, it’s where they meet one another. You know, girls and boys. Yeah. Faith is real there, you see, and it’s Christian. But from your point of view that’s deplorable and that “those people” don’t like the idea of making a wedding cake for a gay marriage is deserving of a federal lawsuit and loss of the bakery (which is, as a result, now closed — putting yet more people out of work.) The people who live in these towns don’t see your point of view as a civil rights matter but rather as attacking God.

          What was left after the factory was displaced isn’t enough to run a “service economy”, which is why it never showed up there and the old business buildings are all boarded up. Nobody can afford $8 lattes on a $9/hour wage for 20 hours a week and nobody would want them if they could. There’s probably a McDonalds on the outskirts, and a couple of self-serve gas stations with a convenience store. It sells cheap beer and lots of it to the locals who have nothing to do but drink and then go to church and pray for forgiveness for last night’s 12 pack. None of the jobs at any of these places, except maybe the store manager, makes more than $9/hour and Obamacare has forced all the regular workers down to 20 hours a week on top of it. Try living on $180/week gross sometime — before FICA and Medicare is taken out, never mind gas for the car and the rapidly-escalating car insurance bill — and you might understand. Yes, I know the car is 15 years old and runs like crap. What do you expect on under $1,000/month of income?”

        • Woodsman says

          “This is what 40 years of sending jobs overseas with “trade deals” did. It’s what Amazon did. It’s what Walmart and its Chinese supply line did. It’s what “progressive America” did, and then to add insult to injury the teachers in the public schools tell all the kids that Mommy and Daddy are bad people and hate both the planet and their own kids because they don’t drive a $30,000 Prius or a $60,000 Tesla.

          This is everywhere in rural America. Get in your car and out of your comfort zone some time and you’ll see it. It’s not far from wherever you are. I’ve driven through dozens of these formerly-alive places in the last six months — every one of them dead today, but full of real people. I never met one such person that was a racist, xenophobic *******, but they’re not very happy, and the people they’re unhappy with are those very same folks you wanted to keep in office in Washington DC.

          If you think the destruction of small town America is confined to farms you forget the other half — energy. Would you like your lights to work? Many of those small towns are dead because of the insanity of our energy policy — or lack thereof, tied to left-wing whackjob nonsense.

          Now you want to add insult to injury when they show up to vote, exactly as civics tells them we have a right to do, and a large number of you in the cities did not show up.

          They bought into the message of bringing American jobs back to America and ejecting those who have no right to be here. You call them xenophobic, racist and small-minded — they call it a shot at decent employment for the first time in 30 years.

          They believe in the Henry Ford model of American business, and they’re not wrong to do so. Make the product here, pay the people well enough to be able to afford it, and you’ll do just fine.

          They win the election, in short, and you lose.

          Then you decide to be a sore loser and loot, burn, beat people, issue threats, cry, whine on social media and try to obstruct everything by any means possible — legal or not. You bus people in to “protest” and riot, you “petition”, you raise hell in short — oh, and all this after you implored the other side to “respect the outcome of the election” and lambasted them for suggesting they might want to merely count the ballots twice!

          Note again, as I pointed out above, that eight years ago, and four years ago, these very same people were on the losing end of your stick exactly as they had been for the previous three decades yet they did none of the above. They understand duplicity and your double-standard quite well, seeing as they did the honorable thing and respected the outcome twice in a row despite getting screwed sequentially both times. The only thing your brand of government offered them in the end was Medicaid or worthless “health insurance” through the exchange; the former has no doctors that accept it within 20 miles and the latter has a $5,000 deductible before it pays anything, which is utterly laughable when you consider these folks have a gross wage of under $1,000 a month.

          Now the question: Are you prepared for the possibility they might decide en-masse that they’re done with this crap — and with you? That they’re not going to take it any more?

          What if the people who live in the “red” areas, that is, those who produce the food and energy that are consumed to the 90th percentile in the “blue” areas, decide they’re not going to do that for the blue areas any more? What if their middle finger goes up, in short?

          Remember, we allegedly do not permit slavery in this country any more — which means that which someone owns they have the right to sell – or not sell. They have the right to produce – or, more to the point, not produce.

          What if the people who peacefully conceded the result of two elections over the last eight years despite vehemently opposing the outcome decide that if the “blue” folks can riot, loot, beat people who vote the “wrong way” and similar they will not accept any further election result that doesn’t go their way, and instead of rioting or burning things they will simply shut off the flow of food and energy to said “blue” areas? After all, you don’t value them at all — you consider them subhuman, racist, xenophobic, deplorable and irredeemable — all at once.

          I’ll tell you what happens if they take that decision: Every major city in the country would go feral within hours.”

          • Woodsman says

            “Within days those cities would not be blue, they’d be blackened and reduced to ash as those very same “protesters” you like so much loot, burn and shoot at each other trying to get the last scraps of food and fuel remaining. They would then probably try to come out of the cities and take by force what had been denied them, only to run into a major problem – the “red guys” have more guns, they know the land because they live there, and more importantly they actually hit what they aim at, having had plenty of practice feeding their families with deer, wild boar and similar. Mr. Gang Banger against Mr. Deer Hunter isn’t a very fair fight, when you get down to it.

            Oh by the way there’s a phrase for what this would mean, if you haven’t figured it out by now: Civil War.

            Is that what you want?

            It’s where your actions are headed, if you keep doing what you’re doing — and nobody knows exactly where the tipping point is.

            Better think long and hard, those of you in the “blue” places who are running this crap. You do not have a snowball’s chance in Hell of being able to grow enough in the way of crops on the landmass you control to feed a tenth of your population and every squirrel in your trees would be shot dead and eaten within an hour after this began. Silent spring indeed. Never mind the fact that most of you “wonderful snowflakes” couldn’t shoot, skin, butcher and cook a deer — or even a squirrel — if you had to. Never mind that a good 80% of you couldn’t manage to run one mile if you were being chased by someone interested in eating you.

            The day that cellophane-wrapped chicken stops showing up in the grocery store is literally the day 90% of Blue America starves.

            Nobody in their right mind wants such an outcome. But where do you think this all goes if you keep it up, eh?

            Every bit of it has been enabled by the 17th Amendment and tyranny of the majority — a tyranny you wish to increase by doing things such as abolishing the Electoral College.

            There’s a very good reason our founding fathers designed a Constitutional Republic instead of a Democracy. They understand the problem with democracy: It doesn’t work. Democracy always ends up leading to riots and civil war, because exactly what the blue folks are doing now escalates until everyone starts shooting everyone.

            A Constitutional Republic avoids this outcome because even a very large majority cannot infringe the rights of everyone else — even when the majority lives in big, concentrated places like cities.

            That was the magic sauce of the original design in our legislature and Presidency. It’s why we have an Electoral College — to provide a bit of “overweighting” to those places that are utterly crucial to the cohesiveness and survival of the nation as a functional republic — that is, a bit more balance against tyranny of the majority of 50%+1.

            We got rid of the biggest check and balance with the 17th Amendment and I have, for decades, maintained that whenever America finally is declared dead and done, and the book is closed, that will be written in as the reason our nation’s political system failed. It’s the only Amendment we cannot reasonably repeal, because to do so would require the sitting Senate to vote itself out of a job. I’m sure you can figure out how likely that is.

            But we can avoid doing more violence to our Constitution — and we had better, or the outcome, given the annals of history available to anyone who cares to look, is quite certain. If you want to see how this turns out should you keep pressing the issue go have a look at the map of how many states Trump won .vs. Clinton, or how the county-by-county map looks. You’ll see a lot more red of various shades than you will blue.

            The bottom line? Go ahead and be a sore loser. Go ahead and whine. Go ahead and try to change what our representative process led to. Go ahead and decide to loot, burn and beat. Refuse to accept the result of the election, if you insist. Hell, go ahead and try to threaten or even bribe the electors! Make sure you tear down the last little bit of foundation and structure inherent in the design of the legislature and executive of the United States. Who needs it; it’s all in the name of being “progressive”, right — even if when counted by landmass, counties or states the election was a landslide for Trump.

            Just don’t be surprised, if you keep it up, that at some point, given that you’re utterly reliant on those you’re abusing for the basics of life — the loaf of bread, the gallon of gasoline, the electricity that powers your lights — they decide they’ve had enough. That day your supply of cellophane-wrapped meat and plastic bag full of bread disappears like a fart in the wind. There comes a time when those who you’ve put the boot to for so long, and then try to deny the ability to change things peacefully through the representative process our founding fathers gave us, decide that despite their religious beliefs and good manners they’re not going to service you on their knees any more.

            Don’t be dumb enough to think you can keep doing what you’ve been doing forever because you can’t and if you go too far there will be no warning, no second chances and no saying you’re sorry. It’ll just happen starting with one final stupid act — and then we all lose.”

            Wood

            • Charlie says

              Woodsman has it right–and listening to Trump I must say he has said some wonderful things. I did not vote either way since I did not see either as viable candidates. However, Trump appeared to be the one with a significant sense above the liar Hillary.

              But when do you know that a politician is lying? The answer is when they open their mouth. So will Trump actually do what he says? We certainly hope so since most of us are saddened to see our jobs moved out of the country–but big business and 99% of billionaire business men are not loyal to any country. Their loyalty is to the dollar and the profit margin.

              The loyalty to the constitution and this country is with the Rancher, Farmer, Laborer, and Individuals generally in the middle. Of course this being a Christian based country for the most part it includes most of those people but not exclusive to them. Remember Thomas Paine was an atheist or agnostic, yet great part of developing this Republic. Our great President George Washinton and about 50 others of the signers of the Constitution are masons–ascribe to that society. Donald Trump has a masonic ring on a statue of his–so if so then he would subscribe to the New World Order–and is that on line thing that should be considered. Those that want the New World Order thing are not exactly attached to the American idea as Trump expresses it.

              Here is a list of some of the Masons–Joseph Smith, George Bush, Bill Clinton, Newt Gingrich, Colin Powell, Storm Thurmond, Bob Dole, Jack Kemp, Barry Goldwater, Jesse Helms, Andrew Jackson, Lyndon Johnson, Harry Truman, Franklin Roosevelt, James Garfield, William Taft, Ronald Reagan, Al Gore, James Monroe, James Polk, James Buchannan, James Garfield, William McKinley, Warren Harding, Gerald Ford. and this is just a small list of your leaders. These people that rule the world include people in the Illuminati, Bilderberg Group, Skull and Bones, Free Masons Is their idea of brotherhood bad? Seems the majority are much like the Christian–good fellows that never know what the fuck the boys in charge are doing and how their particular God idea is going to rule the layman. Most laymen have not the time or interest to involve in matters the elite lay out for them.

              These people of the elite generally consider themselves as citizens of the world, and their allegiance to solely America in my opinion is quite suspect. Most of them are just as happy living in a French Mansion as they are in a Trump Tower. However they do like to do obeisance to a statue of Abe Lincoln, even though he was not a Freemason–it looks good to the population.

              So is Donald Trump simply another person with rhetoric? Watching Bill and Hillary’s facial reactions at the Inauguration and include George Bush with an ugly expression when Trump said the end of the politicians getting fatter at the expense of selling this country out (I am paraphrasing but the expressions insinuations of Trump were real) made me think the man is at least ruffling feathers.

              We shall see, but my own opinion is that Trump is in the same class as all the other politicos.

              Woodsman is correct in what he says about the Blues and Reds. If Woodsman would run for President, he would get my vote because he is true to form and knows this should be a Republic, not a Demon Cracy. You see there is rarely an honest politician–maybe Honest Abe was the last of a dying breed.

              I do feel that if a civil war ensues–and that is likely if the social welfare state comes apart–it may be orchestrated or indeed it may come because the fellows feeding the masses do go on strike as Woodsman believes may happen.

              But then those in power already have plans for that type scenario. You can get satellite images of the barbed wire encampments and those are not for illegals. Fema has plans for all the problems this country is destined for–and Joy’s idea that the round a bouts are part of it makes sense. Amazing how little the American people know about the system and how much trust they put into their elected officials.

              The thing about change and if Trump is for real (I do not believe his rhetoric), then he is facing some mighty heavy forces willing to block his efforts.

              It makes me thing about how many promises Bush, Obama, Reagan, and so on made to get in office, yet they were never fulfilled. A good research on that proves the politician tells the public ears what he believes they want to hear and what will get him or her in office–then after a time we see they become a part of the system as now established. The fire fighting system is along those lines as we can see. And maybe there is no other way it can go until it breaks.

              For sure, America was strong when the people had industry. But now we are a service economy. Your job is flipping burgers or stocking shelves of Chinese junk at Wal Mart, or at a bank as a teller and the like. Very little left here to do unless you know how to roll tacos. Not many of the new generation are willing to work as a farm laborer and that has been handed to the illegal for the most part. Farmers and Ranchers are not willing to pay wages the American would want and they say if they did they would not make a profit. So there is much to consider–yet if we let the influx of illegals go unchecked this country would indeed become a third world country–something that it may be destined to in time despite all the good efforts of people like Woodsman.

              Which President had a committee of scientists determine what the planet could support population wise without coming to a disastrous end? I believe on Iron Mountain these elite scientists decided that half a billion was about the limit–we are about 6 billion too populated according to that finding.

              They might be right since the 6 billion people are doing a great job polluting the planet and with all the plastic, retardants, nuclear plants, Isis Virus, just to name a few, we might just soon have a planet that can only support that many–It is not doing too well with the 6 and a half billion right now.

              If Jesus raptures only 144 thousand then he has it figured at a lower figure. Well drop me another bottle of Crown Royal Jesus. I might need it and so may some others if Trump is lying though his teeth.

              • Woodsman says

                Thanks, Charlie. I trust no one until they have proven trustworthy. I’m also willing to give just about anyone a chance though. Trump is something a little different than what we have had in the past so time will tell on his dedication to his spoken plans. It’s an uphill battle for certain.

                Those who talk solely of the popular vote numbers & imply that the election results thereby are invalid in some way (not even taking into account the evidence of substantial vote fraud,) are really advocating for TYRANNY OF THE MAJORITY. A goal of mine was to illustrate just exactly what that tyranny entails.

                A major portion of city people simply have no clue how the rest of the country lives. The are seen as backwoods, redneck hicks (woodsmen?) but the regular folks are mostly producers of things of tangible benefit to society…wood fiber, minerals, the roads you drive, energy produced so we can run our electric-powered luxuries. “Common” folk are the heart and soul of the country & without their hard work the country would grind to a halt. Instead of looking down their noses at them & deciding what’s best for them by telling them how to live their lives in all ways, a simple “thank you for what you do” every once in a while would be a much better way to go. I’m talking about the lineman in the ice-storm at 2:00am freezing his tail off repairing the electric feed to your home so your thermostat makes heat blow out of your floor registers again; the septic/sewer/plumber man so the shit disappears down the pipe instead of over-flowing onto the floor of your bathroom; the logger because the last time I checked most houses & furniture were made from wood (not to mention TOILET PAPER!), etc, ect. etc.

                Some have lost touch with the proud regular people and decided they know better on how they should live their lives. I have not…hell, I’m one of them being the lowly forest technician…& I can relate for several reasons:

                1. crap flows downhill & I’m the one the has to do the actual work since the new crop of managers didn’t get the memo that forestry is hard work that takes place in the woods not behind a desk.

                2. I’m the son of a career sea-going officer in the US military who was raised in a family of automobile factory workers…and…was the first in his family to earn a college degree. Through him I was able to earn my own college education but, I’ve always been one to enjoy the results of hard work because at the end of the day I enjoy seeing accomplishments. I can relate to regular people because I’m not exactly ‘elite’ material myself (thank God!)

                From a young age I’ve always been a free thinker. It’s the way I’m wired. I can spot a scam from 80 chains away.

                Will the new administration reverse the utter destruction to middle-class America that’s gone on for so long? Time will tell. I do know that people have been programmed against taking responsibility for themselves & their families which make people reliant on Uncle Sugar government to take care of them. The problem is that the others who desire to take care of themselves have to pay for it. This has caused the costs of everything from houses to cars to food to health care etc to skyrocket! I would love a new pickup but it costs double what the first home I lived in! not to mention the taxes & insurance I’d had to pay each year for the priviledge of owning it, would have paid rent in my first place for 10 months!

                As you can see, I’m a regular guy doing honest work trying to raise a family…so I get a little irritated when others want to tell me how to live my life and that tyranny of the majority is attempted to be sold as a great idea for everyone!

                There’s a reason that one of Gary’s greatest times of his life was as a hotshot…a groundpounder of epic proportions! The camaraderie of men working together like clockwork to meet a common goal with grit, determination, and honest hard work . Celebrating life with a beer around the bonfire in the off-season amongst treasured friends you serve with to make the world a better place by protecting our nations forests & fields from the ravages of wildfire. Sounds really good to me! Will we get back to basics as a nation like this again? Well…YES, WE CAN!!! It’s going to take honesty, hard work, believing in yourself, self reliance & personal responsibility. There is no free lunch.

                God bless America!

                Woodsman

                • Gary Olson says

                  The Woodsman said, “There’s a reason that one of Gary’s greatest times of his life was as a hotshot…a groundpounder of epic proportions!”

                  http://ourfiregods.com/reserved2.html

                  And I say, That’s very true.

                  Wait a minute…is that a double entendre (I had to look it up to spell it)? “A a groundpounder of EPIC proportions?”

                  Are you actually saying I would have been a better hotshot (and everything else) IF I hadn’t been so darn FAT?

                  And as far as President Donald J. Trump goes (just as long as he doesn’t bring on a nuclear winter because I am not as tough as Joy is)…I have decided to give him the benefit of the doubt and hope that he can help my people (Blue Collar Workers, no matter what religion, ethnicity, gender, race, or sexual orientation, etc. they may be).

                  And IF he CAN’T…or WON’T? I certainly hope we elect somebody next time who will! Because right now…they are ******…and not in a good way!

                  Like my old friend RTS said a bit downstream, “Only time will tell.” Tick Tock ****** *******!

                  • Gary Olson says

                    Oh…and one more thing RTS. I’m pretty sure the photo of me standing in front of the com trailer waiting to “load up” to “hit the line” is from the Murdock Basin Fire in the Wasatch Mountain Range.

                    Ahhhh…memories of our Glory Days!

                    I had a friend was a big baseball player
                    back in high school
                    He could throw that speedball by you
                    Make you look like a fool boy
                    Saw him the other night at this roadside bar
                    I was walking in, he was walking out
                    We went back inside sat down had a few drinks
                    but all he kept talking about was

                    Chorus:
                    Glory days well they’ll pass you by
                    Glory days in the wink of a young girl’s eye
                    Glory days, glory days

                    Well there’s a girl that lives up the block
                    back in school she could turn all the boy’s heads
                    Sometimes on a Friday I’ll stop by
                    and have a few drinks after she put her kids to bed
                    Her and her husband Bobby well they split up
                    I guess it’s two years gone by now
                    We just sit around talking about the old times,
                    she says when she feels like crying
                    she starts laughing thinking about

                    Chorus

                    My old man worked 20 years on the line
                    and they let him go
                    Now everywhere he goes out looking for work
                    they just tell him that he’s too old
                    I was 9 nine years old and he was working at the
                    Metuchen Ford plant assembly line
                    Now he just sits on a stool down at the Legion hall
                    but I can tell what’s on his mind

                    Glory days yeah goin back
                    Glory days aw he ain’t never had
                    Glory days, glory days

                    Now I think I’m going down to the well tonight
                    and I’m going to drink till I get my fill
                    And I hope when I get old I don’t sit around thinking about it
                    but I probably will
                    Yeah, just sitting back trying to recapture
                    a little of the glory of, well time slips away
                    and leaves you with nothing mister but
                    boring stories of glory days

                    Chorus (repeat twice)

                    Bruce Spingsteen

                    • Gary Olson says

                      You know…the main reason I posted the photo of me in my first year as a hotshot standing in front of the Twin Otter comin’ back from a fire in the Gila Wilderness Area in southern New Mexico is because my baby face and stupid grin reminds me of so many of the Granite Mountain Hotshot Crew…Wade Parker and Travis Turbyfill for starters..

                      http://www.cbs5az.com/story/22770789/yarnell-hill-fire-wade-parker-remembered-for-baseball-passion

                      https://www.firehero.org/fallen-firefighter/travis-turbyfill/

                      I wish Wade,Travis and all of the others GMIHS would have had hotshot crew bosses like I did.

                      Which is a reality check to remind me of why I have been here on this thread for so long and I know that is the reason why YOU people are still here as well.

                    • Gary Olson says

                      Whoops, I should have said,

                      1. Cut hand line and back fire it; or
                      2. Cut hand line and burn it out; or
                      3. Cut hand line, back fire it AND burn it out;
                      4. Repeat as often as is necessary.
                      5. Mop it up and COLD TRAIL it.
                      6. Go to the bar with the crew and talk about the last fire, the next fire…or some other fire.

                      Pretty ******* simple.

                  • Woodsman says

                    Gary,

                    I love you, man. I meant ‘epic’ as you felt larger than life at the time (and you were right!)…had the world by the balls, so to speak. You ARE huge though, haha!

                    I’m cautiously optimistic as well, mainly because the regular folks have been screwed for so long that it’s hard to believe it will ever change. We’ll see.

                    I would like to see more unity of all people. Even though I’m doing OK, it was not long ago at all that I didn’t know how I was going to pay for basic needs. I know what it’s like to not have much food in the cupboard (hones your rifle skills quick.) Iwas different at the time as I had a safety net – I knew my parents wouldn’t let me starve. Many good people do not have that same safety net. I like to believe I never would have gone to that safety net but when a man has nothing to eat, who knows? I do know that there are many good people who are struggling and I hope that situation can be turned around.

                    I thought of you and your fond memories of your hotshot days. Times were simpler than, no? Bet it was great! Good health and blessings to you friend!!!

                    Wood

                    • Gary Olson says

                      I goin’ with you on President Trump…for the next four years or maybe more, because as you said, we do live in a Constitutional Republic.

                      So…we can’t talk the talk IF we don’t walk the walk.

                    • Gary Olson says

                      Oh and one more thing, you said “Times were simpler than, no?”

                      And I say, “yes they were.”

                      1. Cut hand line and back fire it; or
                      2. Cut hand line and burn it out; or
                      3. Cut hand line, back fire it AND burn it out;
                      4 Repeat as often as is necessary.
                      5. Mop it up.

                      Pretty ******* simple.

                    • Gary Olson says

                      Whoops out of order,

                      Gary Olson says
                      JANUARY 21, 2017 AT 11:04 AM

                      Whoops, I should have said,

                      1. Cut hand line and back fire it; or
                      2. Cut hand line and burn it out; or
                      3. Cut hand line, back fire it AND burn it out;
                      4. Repeat as often as is necessary.
                      5. Mop it up and COLD TRAIL it.
                      6. Go to the bar with the crew and talk about the last fire, the next fire…or some other fire.

                      Pretty ******* simple.

                    • Woodsman says

                      Gary said:

                      “I goin’ with you on President Trump…”

                      My intentions were not so much to be a Trump advocate but more of a Constitutional Republic of our great nation advocate. While I agree the 2 choices we were presented with couldn’t be more bizarre…the wife of a former president that imho is part of a group of individuals and organizations that have brought great harm to our country and the people OR a real estate mogul tv personality. But in my mind we are in need of something different that what we have had for a long, long time. We will see.

                      I am encouraged by Zinke as head of the Interior dept. There is no way that someone of his credentials will not see the problems in the current national fire policy. It’s blatantly obvious there are real problems with the way we manage wildfire on public lands currently.

                      Thanks!

                      Woodsman

                    • Gary Olson says

                      The Woodsman said, “My intentions were not so much to be a Trump advocate but more of a Constitutional Republic of our great nation advocate.”

                      That is what I meant as well. I did say that I expected everyone to accept the results of the elections…and I realized I should follow former President Obama and Hillary Clinton’s and accept the the will of the people who managed to get the complicated election algorithm right.

                      Although…IMHO, President Trump could make me feel a little bit better if he would stop opening my wounds with a wire brush and pouring salt in them with his apparent inability to deliver anything other than his stump speech which focuses solely on how much better he is than anyone else and the HHHUUGE landslide he won by, neither one of which are true.

                      It is time IMHO…too stop running for President, because yes…Donald Trump won and too start governing by telling us exactly how he is going to make the working people of this country’s lives better other than vague promises and generalized statements.

                      Raising the minimum age limits for Medicare eligibility, Social Security, and eliminating the Affordable Care Act without a replacement ready that is going to make medical care to continue to available to so many of his supporters in the rust belt are NOT the best places to start…I think, but then again, he is the expert.

                      I do find it interesting that so many people hate Obama Care but love the ACA. I have also cringed when so many people who voted for President Trump have said while being interviewed…”I sure hope I don’t lose the health care coverage for my family under the ACA because I took Trump seriously…but not literally. I really didn’t believe he would do most of the things he promised.”

                      in addition, as a veteran of our failed War on Drugs and after spending so much time on the Mexican Border….I can hardly wait to see The Big Beautiful Magnificent and HHHUUGE WALL on our border with Mexico and the Cashiers Check from el banco central del Estado Mexicano to pay for it.

                      If I were President Trump, I wouldn’t take a personal check from el Presidente de los Estados Unidos Mexicanos…Enrique Peña Nieto because I bet it will bounce and then our account will be overdrawn which will cost us a lot of overdraft fees we can’t afford.

                      But then again…he is the HHHHHUUUUGGGLLY businessman who hasn’t declared bankruptcy more than 7 times because he knows how to borrow money PLANNING on paying back less than he owes under renegotiated terms (which sounds good to me because unlike the Bank of China, I don’t own any Treasury Bills) I started with just a small loan from my father. It’s harder for me to imagine a better spokesperson for the disappearing middle class.

                      However, there is a HHHHUUUGGE difference between being obstructionists and governing
                      and now the real show begins. I can hardly wait because I am so excited to see all of the wonderful things Donald Trump, Steve Mnuchin

                      http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/steve-mnuchins-controversial-history-foreclosure-crisis/story?id=44840027

                      and Andrew Puzder

                      http://money.cnn.com/2016/12/08/news/economy/andrew-puzder-trump-labor-secretary/index.html

                      are going to do for my people.

                    • Gary Olson says

                      Oh…and like I said a ways downstream…I wouldn’t worry if I were a middle aged WF much less a young one just starting out with a family to support who needs the health insurance my job offers.

                      I am sure all of that talk about privatizing LOTS MORE public sector jobs is just bloviating talk…right? After all…it’s not like our current and last wars were fought with vast private armies of mercs and service providers that generated unimaginable wealth for private companies like former Vice President Cheney’s Halliburton because you know…you can’t trust the lying media. I just heard President Trump assure the people at the CIA his fued with them was never real…it was all manufactured by the dishonest media and NOT him on Twitter talking about him being an asset of the Russian Intelligence Services who has been compromised with personal and business related escapades (awkward) in Russia. I just can’t imagine someone with Donald Trump’s background having personal or professional issues…can you?

                      No…really, that is NOT a rhetorical question. Can you?

                    • Gary Olson says

                      I mean…lying dishonest mainstream media aside, I did read President Trump directly compare our great nations intelligence professionals, who are indeed the best among us, to Nazi’s who were responsible for the deaths of more than 80 million people during WWII.

                      President Trump did write on his Twitter account,

                      Donald J. Trump ✔ @realDonaldTrump
                      Intelligence agencies should never have allowed this fake news to “leak” into the public. One last shot at me.Are we living in Nazi Germany?
                      4:48 AM – 11 Jan 2017

                      That…while I have never heard him say a single bad thing about former KGB Colonel (who was station chief in EAST GERMANY)…Vladimir Putin.

                      Does any of that give you pause…or am I just an old worry wart who has been listening to too much fake news?

                      What do you think about that? I really do want to know? You are obviously a very smart, highly educated, deeply patriotic and very articulate forester or…Woodsman.

                    • Woodsman says

                      I’m not well researched on that entire story about the Russian hacking our election which turned out to be made up by our own intel community out of whole cloth. A more immediate & viable threat to our electronic voting equipment is the ctr 4 Am. progress & the corporation which manufactures the machines who both are actual run/funded by a certain individual of Hungarian descent and a prominent party donor.

                      Managers of major agencies & flag officers in the military as well, seem to be more political figures in order to achieve the respective positions. That being the case, these people are more susceptible to corruption.

                      I don’t know much of what a ‘tweet’ is but I assume it’s sort of a social media instant messaging type of thing. Trump’s message seems to be in response to a intel agency purposely sowing mis-information in order to benefit certain political establishments over another in the midst of an election & transfer of power. It’s interesting that he used the ‘nazi’ reference because it’s similar to fighting fire with fire. People that use those techniques frequently are not accustomed to being on the receiving end of them & it throws them off-balance.

                      I stay informed in my way but I gotta tell you, in my estimation there is a veritable shit-ton of mis-information to sift through in today’s world to get to the truth. It’s a lot of ‘white noise.’

                      As far as Putin goes, we have more than our fair share of skeletons in the closet. We have woven our own tangled web in the past. It’s hard to tell what’s what.

                      Wood

                    • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

                      Reply to Woodsman post on
                      January 21, 2017 at 8:41 pm

                      >> Woodsman said…
                      >>
                      >> I’m not well researched on that entire
                      >> story about the Russian hacking our
                      >> election which turned out to be made
                      >> up by our own intel community out
                      >> of whole cloth.

                      Well… that right there is the ‘sign of the times’.

                      You admit you don’t know enough about something to support the final conclusion you have already made ( and believe ).

                      Nothing to see.
                      Move along.

                      >> Woodsman also said…
                      >>
                      >> I can spot a scam from 80 chains away.

                      Then all you need to do ( in this case ) is to take a few more steps forward from your current ’82 chain’ distance.

                    • Woodsman says

                      Fair enough. Educate me. Did Brennan initially claim the Russians interfered in the election and later said it wasn’t true after all? I’m listening.

                      I’ll edit my statement:

                      “I’m not well researched on that entire
                      >> story about the Russians ALLEGEDLY hacking our
                      >> election which WAS ADMITTED BY THE SAME AGENCY (CIA UNDER BRENNAN) TO KNOWN TO BE FALSE THE WHOLE TIME.”

                      What would be your most accurate reflection of the facts in this topic?

                    • Gary Olson says

                      Woodsman,

                      Thank you for your thoughtful response. I don’t know anything about Zinke except that he is a relatively new Congressman and a former Navy SEAL.

                      I’m not sure what any of that has to do with knowing how wildfire should be managed in the future so you must know something about him I don’t other than he bonded with Donald Trump Jr. over hunting?

                      I also know that most political observers expected the job to go to Washington State’s Cathy Anne McMorris Rodgers who has been a faithful and loyal Republican political figure in national politics for some time who seemed eminently more qualified for the job than Zinke to me?

                      I also have written before on this thread that based on my experience, Democratic administrations always meant better budgets and more positive attention than Republican administrations did.

                      Now…I don’t want anyone to pick a President based on who makes things better for land management agencies and it never made any difference to me personally since I was a soldier in the disastrously failed War on Drugs and that shielded me from budget cuts that hurt normal land management types.

                      Other than national security…I have said on this thread I am a single issue voter these days. Who will stop transferring almost all of the wealth in this country to just a few individuals? This has been going on for almost 40 years now. If that person is President Trump…I will vote for him in four years.

                      I just happen to think that someone who very well be the poster boy for the east coast liberal democratic elite establishment up until a couple of years ago…is not that person but I certainly hope he is since he now had the job.

                      And I don’t know about any of President Trump’s Russian connections other than he and former KGB Colonel who is a mass butcher of civilians (in Grozny and now Syria) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Grozny_%281999%E2%80%932000%29 who has journalists and political opponents murdered or put into gulags Vladimir Putin who has invaded almost all of his neighbors in recent years and is poised to invade more of them in the near future really seem to have a bromance going on.

                      So…this makes me want to see his tax returns in the worst way so I can see IF he has any close business connections in Russia. And given his personal and professional history, it is only too easy for me to believe he may be compromised by the Russian intelligence services.

                      I don’t think there is any doubt now in anyone’s mind except for his that the Russian Government played a key role in helping him to get elected over Hillary Clinton…is there? Which makes me ask the question…”Why did they do that?”, since I don’t believe in coincidences.

                      And just for the record…I would have been perfectly satisfied (more or less) with President Jeb! other than he would have cut land management agencies budgets even more and continued the hemorrhaging of what little wealth the disappearing middle class has left to the top 1%.

                    • Gary Olson says

                      Oh…and one more thing. I do know President Trump Tweeted the following:

                      Donald J. Trump ✔ @realDonaldTrump
                      Russia just said the unverified report paid for by political opponents is “A COMPLETE AND TOTAL FABRICATION, UTTER NONSENSE.” Very unfair!

                      4:13 AM – 11 Jan 2017

                      I’m not sure quoting the Russian Government is all that helpful to him…at least as far as I am concerned.

                      Donald J. Trump ✔ @realDonaldTrump
                      Russia has never tried to use leverage over me. I HAVE NOTHING TO DO WITH RUSSIA – NO DEALS, NO LOANS, NO NOTHING!
                      4:31 AM – 11 Jan 2017

                      Nor do I think that just taking his word for his lack of involvement in Russia is reasonable given his background…or even without his background since President Ronald Reagan so famously said, Trust but verify” when it came to dealing with the Russians.

                      Donald J. Trump ✔ @realDonaldTrump
                      Intelligence agencies should never have allowed this fake news to “leak” into the public. One last shot at me.Are we living in Nazi Germany?
                      4:48 AM – 11 Jan 2017

                      And I jsut happen to think that no one should compare anything to Nazi Germany other than Pol Pot and the Khmer Rouge, Turkey treatment of the Kurdish and Armenian people, Bashar Al-Assad and Putin’s treatment of Sunni Muslims in Syria, Putin’s treatment of Chechen civilians, and last but not least…the great Stalin purges of his own people. I also happen to think that no one should ever compare our intelligence services in any context to Nazi’s in any conceivable way.

                      Donald J. Trump ✔ @realDonaldTrump
                      The dishonest media likes saying that I am in Agreement with Julian Assange – wrong. I simply state what he states, it is for the people….
                      5:25 AM – 5 Jan 2017

                      I don’t think any person who wants to be taken seriously should ever quote Julian Assange.

                      Donald J. Trump ✔ @realDonaldTrump
                      to make up their own minds as to the truth. The media lies to make it look like I am against “Intelligence” when in fact I am a big fan!
                      5:45 AM – 5 Jan 2017

                      and

                      Donald J. Trump ✔ @realDonaldTrump
                      The “Intelligence” briefing on so-called “Russian hacking” was delayed until Friday, perhaps more time needed to build a case. Very strange!

                      And I think that putting Intelligence in quotes appeared to be Trump mocking the intelligence agencies as in the old reliable…”Military Intelligence is an oxymoron.”

                      Donald J. Trump ✔ @realDonaldTrump
                      Julian Assange said “a 14 year old could have hacked Podesta” – why was DNC so careless? Also said Russians did not give him the info!
                      4:22 AM – 4 Jan 2017

                      and

                      Donald J. TrumpVerified account
                      ‏@realDonaldTrump

                      WikiLeaks proves even the Clinton campaign knew Crooked mishandled classified info, but no one gets charged? RIGGED!

                      See previous about quoting Julian Assange as a trustworthy and reliable source, nor would I rely on Wikileaks since our “Intelligence Agencies” agree he has blood on his hands for publishing the leaks by Ms. Manning that had the names and descriptions of Afghanistan “Intelligence” human assets.

                      The problem with defending President Trump…is Donald Trump himself. IF you are going to an apologist for President Trump…you are going to be mighty busy for the next few years doing nothing but making excuses for President Trump.

        • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

          Reply to Woodsman post on January 20, 2017 at 10:22 pm

          >> Woodsman said…
          >>
          >> WTKTT,
          >>
          >> Here’s some thoughts on a very important matter that you have
          >> been talking about several times since the most recent election.
          >>
          >> ( snip )

          Thank you for all of that… including your multi-post ‘manifesto’ of sorts.

          I have to make this short because I’m on a ‘dumbphone’ and I’m currently out exercising my right as an American to protest and taking part in what is already a historic event.

          I have not read *all* of your ‘posts’. ( I actually stopped when I hit the racist parts )… but I will… because if you took all that time to ‘compose’ all of that… the least I can do ( later ) is finish reading it all.

          But first I need to finish ( along with millions of others today ) reminding some people that if you are going to pick fights… be sure to show up with the proper sized weaponry.

          ———————————————–
          Well, I was there and I saw what you did
          I saw it with my own two eyes
          So you can wipe off that grin,
          I know where you’ve been
          It’s all been a pack of lies.

          Phil Collins – “In the Air Tonight”
          ———————————————–

  11. calvin says

    http://www.knoxnews.com/story/news/local/tennessee/2017/01/16/multi-agency-panel-review-chimney-tops-fire/96547690/

    Investigation of the Chimny tops 2 fire coming.

    Wtf. Thanks for the follow up to my last post. And for the link you provided. It does appear that officials knew the cause of the fire early on. Too bad they didn’t go ahead and say the juveniles were also the ones to start the first chimney tops fire. Seems like a safe assumption, right?

  12. calvin says

    https://youtu.be/vEMPyOMmTtc

    I learned how to share a link. Only been about 3 years.

    This video was about two days before the fire blew up and escaped the containment lines that were established as THE plan to suppress the chimney tops 2 fire.

    BTW
    This plan included letting the chimney tops trail burn as it was included in the 400pus acre containment area. Interestingly, the trail had been renovated in 2014 to the cost of approximately $750k.

    • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

      Reply to calvin post on January 14, 2017 at 10:22 am

      >> calvin said…
      >>
      >> https://youtu.be/vEMPyOMmTtc
      >>
      >> I learned how to share a link. Only been about 3 years.
      >>
      >> This video was about two days before the fire blew up and escaped the
      >> containment lines that were established as THE plan to suppress the
      >> chimney tops 2 fire.

      Thank you, calvin. Fascinating video… especially the HIGH-RESOLUTION ‘close-ups’ of that small fire just 48 hours before 13 people would lose their lives because it had not been ‘suppressed’.

      This video alone seems to be definitive ‘proof’ that there WERE all kinds of ‘opportunities’ for ‘suppression’ other than GSMNP Fire Management Officer Greg Salansky’s decision to just “let it burn” and ‘hope for the best”.

      Given the extreme drought conditions and the extreme fire danger at the time this video was taken… there certainly ARE ‘similarities’ here between this fire and the 2013 Yarnell Hill Fire.

      In BOTH cases… there wasn’t the proper sense of ‘urgency’ on the part of the ‘professionals’ tasked with the initial suppression efforts, and no full recognition that there was a limited ‘window of opportunity’ before something very BAD and very TRAGIC *could/would* happen ( given the conditions and the weather forecasts )… including needless and totally unnecessary loss of life.

      What’s also interesting in the video is that the WIND was obviously already becoming a ‘factor’, even 48 hours BEFORE the ‘blowup’… and also the fact that even these supposed ‘containment lines’ were just park roads that were still fully open to the PUBLIC.

      Even by your own accounts… and even on the day of the ‘blowup’ itself ( Monday, November 28, 2016 )… there was still such a lack of any sense of ‘urgency’ that there were still ‘hikers’ out there on those GSMNP trails and they, themselves, almost became ‘victims’ of this fire.

      >> calvin also said…
      >>
      >> BTW
      >> This plan included letting the chimney tops trail burn as it was included in the 400pus
      >> acre containment area. Interestingly, the trail had been renovated in 2014 to the
      >> cost of approximately $750k.

      What did GSMNP Fire Management Officer ( and Chimney Tops 2 Incident Commander ) Greg Salansky think was going to happen… under those extreme fire conditions, the fuel loads, and the predicted weather?

      That it would just slowly burn right up to his ‘containment lines’ ( park roads ) and just ‘go out’?

      Speaking of VIDEOS and “The Chimney Tops 2 Fire”…

      Even on the night of the blowup… comments were already appearing on various social media sights with people saying they had ALREADY heard that the “Chimney Tops 2 Fire” might have been STARTED by “people playing with matches”.

      Some of those comments said they believed it was something that had already been ‘reported’ on the TELEVISION… even BEFORE the ‘blowup’ began.

      I finally found the ‘source’ of those early ‘reports’.

      There really WAS a ‘TV’ report as early as 5:00 PM on Monday, November 28, 2016, which featured an on-camera ‘interview’ with GSMNP Park Ranger ‘Ed Morin’, who said the ‘suspected’ SOURCE of the fire was already, in fact, “people playing with matches”.

      The same interview also said that this same GSMNP Park Ranger ‘Ed Morin’ was the same one who had initially ‘spotted’ the ‘Chimney Tops 2’ Fire when it began the afternoon of November 23, 2016.

      ** CHANNEL 8 REPORTER KYLE GRAINGER – INTERVIEW WITH ‘ED MORIN’

      ‘Channel 8’ Reporter Kyle Grainger was there in Gatlinburg all day on Monday, November 28, 2016.

      Kyle Grainger was ‘on the air’ and giving a LIVE update at 5:01 PM that Monday, at the very TOP of the ‘Channel 8’ 5:00 PM News broadcast.

      Video Title: Hikers warned of wildfires.

      Here is a direct link to this PUBLIC video sitting on the ‘Channel 8’ Server…

      NOTE: Your browser must be able to play MP4 videos directly ( or have a plugin installed that can ) in order for the following link to work…

      https://d2pvyxdw30n8fd.cloudfront.net/WVLT/v583cb8cd16ee7/c1b0fae65aac4964838a8e979969660f-SD.mp4

      Reporter Kyle Grainger was at the ‘Gatlinburg Scenic Overlook’ just northwest of Gatlinburg, on the ‘Gatlinburg Bypass’. He was actually standing right here, next to the ‘photograph’ that is there explaining the view in the distance…

      35.711369, -83.530065

      Just in case that video ‘disappears’… here is a complete Transcript of this ‘Channel 8’ PUBLIC video… including his ‘on camera’ interview with GSMNP Park Ranger ‘Ed Morin’…

      ————————————————————————————————
      ( Subtitle showing at bottom of screen: WILDFIRE GROWING IN SMOKIES )
      ( It is exactly 5:01 PM and it is still ‘daylight’ in Gatlinburg )

      +0:00 ( 5:01 PM, Monday, November 28, 2016 )

      Anchor reporter: We go LIVE to channel 8 reporter Kyle Grainger now in Gatlinburg… he’s been there all day. Kyle?… How is it now?

      +0:05
      Kyle Grainger: It’s still windy out here, guys… and it’s still VERY smoky.

      We’ve got a lot of leaves that are flying across the parking lot.

      We’re actually at one of the overlooks on the Gatlinburg Bypass.

      ( ? ) is just down the way there… but you can see… VERY difficult to see into downtown Gatlinburg because of all the smoke up here that has been created. A lot of ash in the air… so… you know… it’s kind of flying into your eyes. A lot of people were stopping here to look… you know… they’re covered over with their masks.

      Let me show you a different perspective. The picture at the bottom of your screen in the video actually is what it is going to look like on a normal day with this same view were we are standing now. You can see just all of the smoke there.

      I am told that the fire… ah… continues to spread.

      They continue to have issues with this because of the winds tonight.

      They have made contact with about thirty people or so that are hiking in the park, near this area.

      Park service trying to get a hold of those folks and let them know what the situation is.

      +00:59
      ( Video now ‘cuts’ to an earlier ( taped ) interview with ‘National Park Service ( NPS ) Spokesperson’ Dana Soehn )

      NPS Spokesperson Dana Soehn: Thirty people that we knew were in the back-country that we have evacuated and given
      notices to through text messages and also our marking all of the back-country trails…
      so we have several trails that have closed.

      +1:13
      ( Video now ‘fades’ to another earlier interview with GSMNP Ranger Ed Morin, an older man with glasses, a GSMNP ‘ball cap’, and a bright yellow overjacket ).

      +1:15
      GSMNP Ranger Ed Morin: We had reports of… ( pause )… ya know… people throwin’ matches. ( He imitates the ‘striking’ and the ‘throwing of matches’ as he says this ). Uh… Uhm… unsubstantiated… but we had reports of that. The fire IS… WAS ‘human caused’. It’s under investigation.

      +1:27
      Kyle Grainger: Ed Morin… one of the rangers that you saw there in that… uh… interview… he actually spotted this fire when it started… at only about two acres… and then continually has grown to what we believer is five hundred… if not MORE… but… uh… again… park rangers say they really can’t get a perspective because of just how smoky it is. I do want to give you a perspective of how far this fire has traveled throughout the course of the day today… ‘Chimney Tops’ being over here ( he points to them on the overlook map )… in this area just below Mount Le Conte. We understand that embers flew up to three miles away… near the ‘Twin Creeks’ area, actually causing more spot fires… and NOW the fire has ‘jumped’ parts of the ‘Twin Creek’ road there… in that area. This is also the Bud… Bud Ogle cabin area… and is NOW… uh… creeping up the ridgeline towards the ‘Park Vista’ ( Hotel ). So that’s kinda the idea of how this fire has spread today. The concern continues to be these winds that blow around.

      I can tell you… we have LOTS of things flying through the parking lot. We have tree limbs that are coming down as well… so… as you drive overnight tonight… if you have any plans to be driving around in these smoky areas… or where the winds are picking up… that’s also some of the other problems tonight.

      Reporting live in Gatlinburg… Kyle Grainger, local eight news.

      +2:35
      Anchor reporter: Alright. Kyle… thanks a lot.

      +2:37
      VIDEO ENDS

      —————————————————————————————–

      Again… the part of that interview that did, in fact, go ‘on the air’ at 5:00 PM Monday, November 28, 2016… a few hours BEFORE the ‘blowup’ and the fatalities…

      +1:15
      GSMNP Ranger Ed Morin: We had reports of… ( pause )… ya know… people throwin’ matches. ( He imitates the ‘striking’ and the ‘throwing of matches’ as he says this ). Uh… Uhm… unsubstantiated… but we had reports of that. The fire IS… WAS ‘human caused’. It’s under investigation.

      • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

        Followup…

        Again… speaking of ‘videos’ related to the recent fatal ‘Chimney Tops 2’ fire disaster… the following is an interesting ‘compilation’…

        ** VIDEO FOOTAGE TAKEN DURING THE ‘BLOWUP’ ITSELF

        The day after the ‘blowup’… someone did a good job of ‘collecting’ a whole bunch of ‘videos’ taken by various people that were shot DURING the fatal ‘blowup’ the day before.

        Most of these video clips were shot from INSIDE the ‘blowup’ at various place like downtown Gatlinburg itself, and places just west of there on Highway 321 where motels and residences were engulfed in flames.

        YouTube Video Title: “LIVE FOOTAGE ( Collection ) – Gatlinburg Fire”
        Published on November 29, 2016
        https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qRRF8IJ3r3k

        +0:00
        Begins with another ‘escape’ video… similar to the one that hit social media the night of the blowup… but this one has ‘background radio traffic’. There was a radio in the truck that was ‘scanning’ fire and police frequencies during the ‘blowup’ and this ‘escape’ ( also from Chalet Village? )… and you can hear the chaos and the confusion that was happening on the radio at that time. This video *may* have actually been shot by a firefighter riding in the passenger seat of an actual engine ‘on duty’ during the ‘blowup’.

        NOTE: LANGUAGE WARNING for this ‘first video segment’.

        +5:51
        Another Kyle Grainger ‘live’ report from Gatlinburg at 11:00 PM Monday night.

        +10:10
        Video shot by someone driving right through downtown Gatlinburg at the height of the actual Monday night firestorm. He passes Engines actively battling fires in the downtown area.

        +11:34
        Citizen video taken in downtown Gatlinburg mid-afternoon on Monday a few hours before the blowup. Smoke in downtown is incredible and the winds are ALREADY picking up in downtown Gatlinburg. She describes the winds as already being in the 15-20 mph range, and she actually says “the wind is coming from the direction of the Chimney Tops”.

        +15:28
        Citizen video taken from downtown Gatlinburg at the height of the firestorm, after dark, on Monday night. Video is looking in the ‘Park Vista Hotel’ direction and shows that ‘hillside’ engulfed flames.

        Some ‘transcripts’ from this video that starts at 15:28…
        ———————————————————————————-
        +15:50
        Video author: “This is the fire burning where Park Vista is. I don’t know if you can see it or not… but the whole mountain where the hotel is on fire. It’s all engulfed right now.”
        +16:09
        Video author: “I can hardly stand still, the wind is blowing so hard, and there’s so much ASH in the air”.
        +16:25
        Video author says “The whole mountainside where Park Vista is, the big round hotel above Gatlinburg, is completely engulfed in flames.”
        +1641
        Video author: “I don’t know if you heard that or not but there were huge explosions just now on top of the mountain… the flames shooting up I don’t know what… something just BLEW UP.”
        +17:08
        Video author: “There’s some of the flames that are shooting up from whatever the explosion just was that went off”.
        +17:50
        Video author: “There are firetrucks and ambulances from all over Sevier County comin’ up through here.”
        +18:00
        Video author: “LISTEN!… there’s ANOTHER EXPLOSION! I hope that’s not the Park Vista hotel. That’s a huge hotel with lots of people in there.”
        +18:36
        Video author: “The wind right now is SO… the wind is probly blowin’ 40 to 50 miles an hour. It’s knocking everything down and it’s making the flames… it’s making the flames SO much worse.”
        +19:29
        Fire truck pulls into parking lot where he is filming and someone yells out at him from the fire truck “STOP FILMING and GO!”
        +19:40
        Video author: “Okay guys… the fire department is here now and they’re saying I have to stop filming and go now. The flames are gettin’ too close down here now to all the hotels. I’m OUT.”

        ————————————————————————-

        +1945
        Video taken during the firestorm, just west of Gatlinburg at the junction of Highway 321 and ‘West Ogle Drive’, by David Ball and China Green of WVLT. It shows the ‘Sleepy Bear Motel’ now fully engulfed in flames.

        Some Dialog from this video…
        ——————————————————————————–
        David Ball: “Hey guys… David Ball and China Green here. We’re outside of Gatlinburg on ( Highway ) 321 at Ogle Drive. There are several structures on fire around us. Right now crews are comin’ in. Several fire departments from all over east Tennessee are comin’ in to help fight this fire. China walk with me over here… You can see here’s one of the structures that’s on fire right now.”

        China Green: “So this is the ( Sleepy Bear? ) hotel… or what’s left of it. We’ve been hearing ‘bombing’ sounds. Things are just blowing up at this hotel. It’s literally just about gone. I’ve never seen anything like this. It’s literally every street you turn on… there’s something else engulfed in flames.”
        ———————————————————————————–

        +24:21
        Channel 11 field reporter Curtis McLoud.
        Video report from near the ‘Gatlinburg Welcome Center’, at the height of the fire storm. He interviews two evacuees from Gatlinburg who saw their houses and business burn down and already know they have lost ‘everything’.

        +33:25
        More video taken from downtown Gatlinburg during the height of the firestorm. Fire engine seen hauling ass through the smoke in downtown Gatlinburg.

        • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

          Correction(s) for above.

          Got my ‘west’ and ‘east’ mixed up.

          Most of the video segments above taken on Highway 321 ( like the one of the ‘Sleepy Bear Motel’ on fire ) are of hotels and buildings burning to the EAST of Gatlinburg… not the WEST.

    • says

      I have a question about clearing around structures in Yarnell prior to the first fire—from the ADOSH report I read that from 2005-2011 $169,000 was spent in the Yarnell area to clear 375 acres and $27,500 in 2007 to clear 40 acres near Peeples Valley. Wondering why Yarnell was so lacking in defensible space if all that money was spent to remove brush etc. ?

      • Charlie says

        That is a good question Diane-the money came in but where was the work? But here is an interesting video link to You Tube showing Yarnell and the Prison Crew as they worked the Yarnell Hill Fire. You can see the fuses being thrown–just one of the ways that back burns and burn outs are made. Was this on Yarnell Hill and what time would it be if so–I am trying to identify the exact location of the back burn–might be hard since I can’t find the video of the back burn above the Shrine. This might go extinct as well so enjoy while you can.

        Pretty sure Joy has photos of the BS ranch three weeks before when there was no defensible space there then again immediately before the fire when it became known as a bomb proof safety destination and had now the wide defensible space. If not the perhaps WTKTT can give us how to get satellite photos on certain dates, for example three weeks before June 30, 2013 and then again on June 30, 2013. Or would those also be redacted?

        https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M6aUgP2YSXY

        What are the chances that we were in Buckeye Arizona looking at a F-150 4×4 to maybe purchase when right next too it was the GMHS water truck with logo and all on it. We asked if it were for sale, but the Buckeye Jones Ford Dealer said it was there to be serviced. Buckeye is the west side of Phoenix on I-10 toward LA. Strange to see that considering who we are.

          • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

            Reply to Diane lomas post on January 18, 2017 at 10:22 am

            >> Diane lomas asked…
            >>
            >> The prison firefighters could participate in back burns
            >> using hand thrown fuzees?

            Yes. The ‘Prison Crews’ are ‘supposed’ to be fully qualified ‘Type 2’ handcrews… which means they are also ‘supposed’ to be capable of doing ‘most’ of the things you would expect of a Wildland handcrew.

            That includes hiking TO/FROM the fire itself, line work, saw work and manual ignitions ( backburns, burnouts, etc. ).

            That being said… there is currently NO evidence in the public record that the DOC ‘Lewis’ Crew itself was ever asked to perform, or ever attempted to perform, any ‘manual burnouts’ ( using fusees or drip-torches or anything else ) on either Saturday, June 29, 2013, or the following day, Sunday, June 30.

            According to ALL available testimony about the ‘tactics’ used by Russ Shumate for his ‘Initial Attack’ on Saturday… there were never any ‘planned burnouts’ or ‘backfires’ involved.

            He considered the Saturday ‘Initial Attack’ to just be a ‘mop up’ operation ( since there was little to no fire or even ‘smokes’ showing on Saturday morning )… and that’s why he only sent 6 members of the DOC Lewis Crew up there and also decided to let his ICT4 ‘Trainee’ Justin Smith handle things that Saturday.

            On Sunday… Darrell Willis was given some ‘DOC’ crews to help with structure protection out at the Double-Bar-A Ranch… but that was primarily the YUMA DOC Crew, and not anyone from the ‘Lewis’ DOC crew.

            So the clip in the above linked video showing members of the Lewis DOC Crew happily lighting and tossing ‘fusees’ does NOT appear to have been something they were doing at the 2013 Yarnell Hill Fire.. It appears to be a video clip from some OTHER fire the Lewis Crew worked in 2013.

            But since there is still so much that is NOT known about what really happened on both June 29 and June 30, 2013… and so much that is still NOT in the ‘public evidence record’… I suppose anything is still possible.

            • Charlie says

              It would be interesting to know all the areas the Prison Crew has worked. It is hard to identify the area, although very similar to the Yarnell area–there is in the video clips from various areas, some not near the Yarnell incident.

              There seems to be a continuous cover up in the Yarnell Fire Debacle–people that were wanting to talk had been threatened and ordered to keep their mouths shut. We have talked personally with these individuals with impeccable reputations. These individuals want the truth out, but of course they have not and likely will never be interviewed. So, if anything is known, the truth has been covered up by making a debacle into a heroic performance. Truth is that the situation of killing 19 men may never be exposed properly–people prefer the heroism doctrine over the truth. Indeed this deserves a Grand Jury attention and outside investigation.

              It can make you sick at the stomach to think of how people operate to protect their reputations and profit margins at the expense of truth and the loss of life and safety of wild land fire fighters –those grunts that risk it all for a small wage.

              • Charlie says

                Joy believes the fusee throw is toward the Peeples Valley area–Since she has hiked that area for years–back with Snake Man, Frankie and some others over a ten or so year span. Snake Man and Frankie were prospectors and hikers with Snake Man a fellow that rounded up Snakes and kept them loose in his house right up behind the Ranch House Cafe, where he also worked as a dish washer for a long period of time.

                Both Snake Man (Tommy Megan) and Frankie Serros died of brain tumors–Joy and I visited Snake Man’s ash box at the Prescott Veteran’s Graveyard. My Dad’s grave is there only about 50 feet from where Snake Man’s ash box is. The VA keeps cremation remains in something that looks like postal boxes for a memorial and burial to veterans. Snake Man was a Viet Nam vet and my dad was a WW1 machinegunner at Alsace Lorainne.

                They were both entering mines and wading water that was saturated with Arsenic. Joy wanted me to go in that mine but I could smell the Arsenic and told her you best keep out of that mine. So there are some mines around here that contain Arsenic and likely Cyanide solutions with that. If you want to investigate them be sure you have rubber boots high enough to keep the liquid off your skin and it might be a good idea to wear a respirator and carry a canary bird or mouse in a cage. If that bugger keels over then get the hell out–radon, hydrogen sulphide gasses, and carbon monoxide are just a few of the gasses that can kill as quick as a wild fire.

                If you wade the water your skin will absorb a fine dose of those chemicals–and those fellows were making numerous trips into that one mine since there are crystals back in there. I believe the many doses they got produced the brain tumors. Joy now has two herself. Add to that the respiratory problems she developed after the many hikes through the retardant, it is a wonder she has not joined Snake Man and Frankie. She is sick in bed today–we visited the doctor yesterday and they prescribed a bunch of medicine–and since it is raining she will be confined to bed at least for a couple days.

                Joy by the way had her snake boot bit entering the mine I above referred to and right after both Frankie and Snake Man had entered the audit. The boot held OK but the broken off fang managed to get enough spray on her leg so that the skin absorbed enough venom to put her in the hospital with a swollen leg and a black leg about 11 inches up on the left side. Her hands and arms on both sides swelled up huge so they were no longer recognizable–anyhow the doctor bill ran about 48 grand–Joy is still paying payments on that bill.

                They killed that snake so you won’t have to worry about him if you enter that mine–but avoid all the water in it you can.

                Now about the photo and whether it is Yarnell. Joy is at this moment contacting the Prison Crew members as to exactly where that video was taken. So we should know the facts there. Joy is pretty confident it is toward Peeples Valley–but no better way than to go to the horses mouth.

                The Prison Crew responded to an ad when we needed someone to do defensible space here after the Yarnell Fire. I must say those men don’t mess around and had my place looking good in two days and after hauling off many loads of brush. They were doing lots of good works for people in that area–shows that there are many prisoners that do not need to be there.

                About 80 per cent of these crimes now a days are related to dope and alcohol and it works out that about 20 per cent of those fellows doing time need to stay there. The rest should have alternative ways of dealing with the crimes. But the prison system is big business similar to the retardant business. When you have billion dollar industries inculcated into the system it is almost impossible to remove them no mater how faulty they become. Their influence and money buys everything from the medical profession to high political influence to continue their crimes against humanity. The sadness is that they can make criminal activity–such as the killing of the 19 and the many deaths due to retardant dumps look like heroic action. Hell they can even hand out awards for such action when many of those responsible should be prosecuted. But they will say we don’t live in a perfect world and this was God’s will for the men or else it was just an accident and part of the job being a wild land fire fighter.

                I wonder what a Grand Jury would decide–I know what many on this site have decided and they are the experts you would find on a Grand Jury. That would change things for the better–A remedy would be found to prevent the type carelessness we saw that killed those men.

        • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

          Reply to Charlie post on January 17, 2017 at 9:24 pm

          >> Charlie said…
          >>
          >> …here is an interesting video link to You Tube showing Yarnell
          >> and the Prison Crew as they worked the Yarnell Hill Fire.
          >>
          >> You can see the fuses being thrown–just one of the ways that
          >> back burns and burn outs are made.
          >>
          >> Was this on Yarnell Hill and what time would it be if so…
          >>
          >> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M6aUgP2YSXY

          This YouTube video with the title “Lewis Crew 2013” ( which was posted publicly by someone named ‘Kara White’ back on April 14, 2014 ) contains clips from many different ‘locations’ where the Arizona Department of Corrections ( DOC ) ‘Lewis Crew’ was working ( presumably all in 2013 )… including the 2013 Yarnell Hill Fire.

          The clips ( and photos ) appear to be all ‘mixed’ up’ and not in any kind of
          ‘sequential’ or ‘location’ order.

          The clips of them ‘throwing fusees’ ( to ignite vegetation on purpose ) at +4:40 into the video does NOT appear to be the Yarnell Area… but the terrain IS ‘similar’ and it DOES appear to be ( somewhere? ) in Arizona.

          Only the person who put that video together could say for sure exactly WHERE all these ‘video clips’ and ‘photos’ were actually taken.

          NOTE: I can find no ‘official’ ( public ) connection between the ‘Kara White’ who posted this video of the ‘Lewis DOC Crew’ and the ‘Arizona Department of Corrections’ ( in general ) and/or the ‘Lewis DOC Crew’ specifically.

          She may have been someone who just knew one of the crew members and was posting the video as a ‘favor’ to that person.

          The proof of that seems to come from the one-and-only comment that has been made on this video.

          After posting the video to YouTube… ‘Kara White’ herself left the only comment on the video and she simply said…

          “Here you go, baby”

          …as if she was simply posting as a ‘favor’ to someone she calls ‘baby’.

        • says

          RTS,
          Informative article that you shared,thank you. It is clear that providing defensible space around structures is essential to protecting homes. Thank you for the data.

        • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

          Reply to Robert the Second ( RTS ) post
          on January 17, 2017 at 9:34 pm

          >> RTS said…
          >>
          >> Not quite a complete answer to your question. Good article
          >> on the beneficial value of creating defensible space around
          >> your structures.
          >>
          >> http://www.pacificbio.org/initiatives/fire/yarnell_fire.html

          Interesting ( and accurate ) ‘conclusion’ in this Pacific Biodiversity Institute ( PBI ) report…

          —————————————————————
          The fact that the Yarnell Hill Fire grew out of control was predictable.
          The interior chaparral shrublands that it burned through are notorious for
          high intensity wildfire. There was extreme fire weather during the fire
          coupled with very dry vegetation as a result of long-term drought, high
          temperatures, intense sunshine and persistent winds. Unfortunately, it
          appears that insufficient attention was placed on the critical warning
          signals of extreme fire weather and fuel conditions, leading to an
          unfortunate loss of lives.

          —————————————————————

          Worth repeating…

          The fact that the Yarnell Hill Fire grew out of control was PREDICTABLE.

          Unfortunately, it appears that insufficient attention was placed
          on the CRITICAL WARNING SIGNALS of extreme fire weather and fuel
          conditions, leading to an unfortunate loss of lives.

          I wonder if the PBI has taken a hard look at the tragic ‘Chimney Tops 2’ fire yet.

          They really could just ‘reprint’ most of that same paragraph.

          • Robert the Second says

            WTKTT,

            Here’s a link for January 17, 2017 Wildfire Today article titled: “Chimney Tops 2 Fire discussed at Senate Confirmation Hearing,” with a short
            < 3-minute video clip on the discussion with Montana Representative Ryan Zinke to be the Interior Dept. Secretary.

            http://wildfiretoday.com/tag/chimney-2-fire/

            A second article, dated January 7, 2017 titled: "Former Fire Management Officer fought off the Chimney Tops 2 Fire saving his home."

            http://wildfiretoday.com/2017/01/11/former-fire-management-officer-fought-off-the-chimney-tops-2-fire-saving-his-home/

            • Woodsman says

              RTS,

              Thanks for the links. I hold out hope that Cdr Zinke, if approved as the next head of Interior, will make an honest assessment of the fire policy of all the important federal agencies under his command… and take appropriate measures to make changes as required.

              Your second link? I’ll withhold judgement of the retired NPS FMO for now but I will say the story of his account is (IMHO) simply dripping with irony as well as a sprinkling of facepalm. Wait…was that a judgment?

              Woodsman

              PS: with the risk of sounding like a know-it-all & Mr. Perfect… my private property has trails (firelines) throughout that I maintain with a GASOLINE powered leafblower… and I burn it off annually under the proper conditions. An uncontrollable wildfire there is not possible because a major lack of available fuel (particularly ladder fuels that would allow a surface fire into the canopy.) The place is overrun with all sorts of wildlife.

              OK. I admit it. I’m a know-it-all.

              Woodcutter

    • Charlie says

      Gary Olson will appreciate this photo of a uranium miner–http://inthesetimes.com/article/18852/uranium-mines-and-mills-reca-act

      This article is about Church Rock Uranium mining about 7 miles NE of Gallup, NM. Since I worked for United Nuclear at that very mine I can tell you a bit about this miner. He is not a long time experienced miner like the photo I saw of Gary’s Dad He is damn sure unhappy since you can see he has already stuck a steel–his arm definition tells me he has not been working a jack leg for long or doing a lot of lifting. I would say he is really about what we would class Donut as a wild land fire fighter experience–very new at the profession. His face would be looking like a coal miner’s face if he had been at the mine face very long. Looks like he just started one hole, stuck his steel, then now was working the second hole and maybe has that steel stuck from the look on his face.

      The chain link wire hanging behind him means he might be starting a new round to blast 6 or eight feet forward. However since he is drilling foot holes first, that is either from inexperience or else he is trying to do long holes. You would want to drill your back holes (top) ones first and bottom ones last since the water and muck from the uppermost holes would drain down and likely fill the bottom holes. If he is drilling long holes–test holes that can reach out 75 ft. in a fan shape to hunt hot uranium spots (the geologist comes along with a long probed Geiger counter to check these holes) then it is odd to start with down holes again.

      However if you look at the black streaks on the wall around him then you would know he is in a very hot area with high grade pitchblende ore. He is working in conditions that explain why a miner is not so anxious to do second shifts and why most of us figured we were at war every day.

      One thing wrong with the picture is that he is doing is working there without the chain link wire overhead. That was a good reason to get yourself killed or fired if a safety inspector showed up, because sandstone can not be sounded like hard rock, so a slab could easily kill that young miner without bolted wire mesh overhead. I suspect from the look on his face that was one of his last shifts as a miner. Sticking steel is the same as a wild land fire fighter that is too sick too work or that keeps breaking safety rules–he best stay home. If that is a steel stuck above his head then he is in deep shit–well he is in double deep shit and literally standing in deep radioactive shit.

      It is amazing how similar the miner and wild land fire fighter look after a days work–yellow wet suits and black as hell. I am half Black (moms maiden name) but was always full black after a days work in the uranium mine. I wonder who is blacker–the uranium miner or the wild land fire fighter (after work that is). So much from the Black Irishman old Sonny.

      • Charlie says

        Oh shit–no safety glasses on–sure fire at the United Nuclear mine–they should be hanging on your jacket so you could put them on quickly if you saw a light headed your way. Those damn things got mucked up so quick that you had to take them off or keep wiping them to see what the hell you were doing–but you needed to put them on if a safety or mine inspector showed. In the mines no one can sneak up on you because the light of someone coming will get to you before they do.

        Anyway that guy has so many similarities to breaking safety rules as the GMHS, and even was sticking his steel. Things that get people in trouble–that miner needed better training but the dangers are the same–health hazards but the accident hazards go up with careless operations.

      • Charlie says

        Miner’s lingo for chain link is wire mesh and dynamite is powder. Defensible space in miner’s lingo means about 100 yards back from my blasting area.

        • Charlie says

          It is amazing how much can be gleaned from photos and from an experienced eye visiting a site. I started the mining experience as early as 9 years of age when I would go underground with my Dad in his copper, silver and gold mines and help him with his work. He worked entirely by hand and used an old black smith hand forge to sharpen and temper his hand steel. I can still hear his rhythmic pinging of the hand steel with his 8 pound single jack driving that steel into the hard rock to make out his rounds. He was a proud old Irish miner–he never worked a day in his life on social security–he did not believe in government hand outs–but thought the only way was though individual effort. He definitely had a work ethic that some men do lack in this new age of the welfare state. I can truly say there were scant days I did not see him do a days labor–and that was only when he had to go for supplies or some type business.

          The working men and women have been this nation’s greatness. Those are also the people willing to go to war for this nation — our greatest resource in keeping this nation free and great. This becoming one with the world is bull shit. If you want to become one with the world then you can handily leave this country–there are plenty places to go. And many of them are not that bad and might suit your interest better than this country does. For instance, many people live in Mexico, Belize, Canada, Australia, etc. If you google Costa Rica you see you can buy property there and easily emigrate there. So there are plenty alternatives to the good old USA. But better have some type retirement income–you won’t be allowed to earn a living if not a citizen there.

          • Charlie says

            Well the point was that if you take the long experienced wild land fire fighters, many that post on this site, and put them on a hike where the men were and they do have a look at all the operation of the day of doom for the 19, then you will get a true view of what went down and why 19 men are needlessly dead. When we hiked the investigators Bret and Bruce of ADOSH, neither had the knowledge and experience of a wild land fire fighter. Neither had experience along the firefighting line, yet they knew wrong had been done and recommended the maximum fines for a bad operation. I mean, what else could you say, even a regular citizen could see the errors.

            But had experienced men been able to see the deadly actions taken then there would have been no awards, no heroic actions to protect structures touted, and no bally ho political cover up. Instead firm action would be taken to cure the defects that caused the deaths of those men would be taken.

            The shame is that media has gone along with the heroism BS and all the books carry on along the same lines. Only Gary Olson, RTS, Woodsman, Dr. Ted Putnam, and others well experienced on the wild land fire lines have diligently pointed out the errors. Add to that the citizens such as WTKTT and JD and others on here that show their concerns and add their diligence to help cure errors and bad actions that cost not only lives but millions in tax moneys and displaced and distraught home owners. These are the heroes along with the young men sacrificed by the fire gods.

  13. Charlie says

    I had not read Joy’s comment. We have gained much from IM and the people on it. Most we believe true to the long journey to the truth concerning the death of the 19 young lives sacrificed by the so called fire gods and their system. Much has been learned from the hundreds of thousands of gallons of fire retardant spread about the small community of Yarnell. We have learned its effects on especially the elderly and those compromised in thier health. Both Joy and I have been diligent in listening to others and seeing the many citizen health problems and the highly skewed death count since the Yarnell and Tenderfoot fire retardant drops. ( Because at least 100 residents abandoned Yarnell-Glen Isla since the fire the population dwindled to about 550 residents. Of that Joy has counted close to 150 deaths since the retardant drops–that amounts to almost a third of the population dead in the few short years since the Yarnell fire of June, 2013. Both Joy and i have since suffered respiratory and in my own case both respiratory and cardiac problems. Whether down the line this information will help people and expose the problems related to wild land fires it will depend upon whether there is proper investigation of both elements or not. Still I have to believe some will give ear to the information learned from this site and apply it to saving their crews and even considering whether civilian health problems can be related to retardant dumps near residences. Perhaps maybe even a law would come about so the population will know what secret ingredients are added to the already pollutant ammonium compounds in the retardant.

    The future of this country is bleak if you look at the infiltration of the Muslim radicals, And generally the Muslim community is quiet because obviously they understand the Koran and its commands toward infidels. In a way not far from old Christianity of the Middle Ages where people were treated much the same as Sharia Muslims do those disagreeing with their belief system.

    We in this country have become much like a Police state. About 99% of the people do not know if they have to leave the big cities because of a terrorist dirty bomb, nuclear attack, or perhaps deadly biological or gas attacks, then they will be subject to arrest if going onto public lands to camp. They do not know it is illegal to be there without purchasing a land pass and that would likely even be restricted so that people will be rounded up into camps–something like the Arapaio tent camps were in Phoenix and like we see in refuge holdings.

    At this point in time this country, hated by so many other countries, is a powder keg that is destined to explode with so many loose nuts ready to do their dirty work. It is already happening but on a small scale. When there is a lock down such as we saw under Martial Law then you hope you will have a few stores of water and food–there will be pandemonium in the big cities and people clamoring to escape like we have never before seen.

    Joy pointed out that the emplacement of these roundabouts when we know they are in error for logic are really there as slow down and future check points to deter and control the population. They are killing a number of people now, but the FEMA people must see them as a necessity. Police are already finding them handy places to get people slowed down so they can get a look at people going by. Perhaps a good thing for criminal control but it is a dangerous for the general flow of traffic. You could say someone is looking forward to the pandemonium that is bound to ensue sooner or later.

    Are some of these burnouts another experiment to see how things will go and keep people on their toes? Some things go unknown to the general population–maybe Putin knows more about the American situation and what undercover black opts is going on here than our general public. I suspect he and the Chinese both do.

    It is kind of like the UFO situation–are they alien or government projects–or perhaps both? Last night we watched a large well lighted UFO for some time. It sat in the SW for about 15 minutes then decided to move to the E for some time. Then dissappeared after a half hour or so in that spot. Not a helicopter by no means–Joy has a photo on her phone. There at Dolan Spring I pointed out these things to her. I had been watching them through my screened tent where I was camped out during the summers. She has some shots of those things shooting green lasers about and toward the ground and some other shots of these things having odd configurations like doors in the center and smaller craft about them–and I have seen these things cross the complete sky horizon to horizon in seconds and return and do the same in seconds–

    Technology or aliens? Who knows by we are told the Government in the know is 50 years ahead of the general population in technology due to security concerns. Yet with all the technology the CIA fellows will tell you there are flaws in the system and we can expect somewhere along the line that the twin tower ordeal will be overshadowed in magnitude of destruction and cost of lives.

    Perhaps Trump’s Wall, if he builds it, will provide some safety net–but then quite a few of those terrorists have made the Canadian border their favorite. One thing I agree on with Trump–look at those doing the bad–and those are in the Muslim community as far as terrorism is concerned. Those facts however are like the fire facts. See too many people, like the Bush family had big oil interests. Money, Money honey. –19 Saudi Arabians flew the planes so we attack Iraq. The American people for the most part thought it made sense and so did the Saudi’s that Bush allowed out while no other planes could fly. People are totally swayed by the propaganda–and what else is new–I can’t tell you who is playing basketball right now–but I can tell you that Trump likely did hire whores to piss on Obama’s bed in Russia. I don’t know what Trump has on Putin but with today’s technology, Trump and Putin probably watch each other going at it now and again–and where do our phones come from–mostly China. So everyone is looking at everyone else and then telling it on these Social Networks or on line.

    I suspect Americans won’t need a diet plan in the near future–our Government will again ration things out (FEMA now, et. al.) just as they did in the depression years of the 30’s. Well at least for the general public.

    But don’t worry, just be a good Boy Scout and follow their motto “BE PREPARED”.

    Joy you have done your best–sorry for you illness since the Retardant dumps–as I am for all those ill from that–someone has to be a guinea pig I suppose and we and the folks of Yarnell have served well in that capacity.

    May the Irish Gods bless you all and good old Jesus as well for you good people of the land of America. Glad Jesus turned a few gallons of water to wine and people could enjoy drinking during a ceremony. We might need some more of that sort of thing.

    • Charlie says

      There is of course a FS attitude and that is carried with many indiviuals as well that certain places should not exist–for example Yarnell being in a dangerous situation, unincorporated, and in a dense manzanita area. The thought is that these cabins, small communities and private lands in forested areas ought not be there in the first place—and so if a fire burns them out it forces people back into the big cities where things can be managed better by the powers that be. Perhaps something can be said for that if you have private land and do not keep your property cleared with the modern term defensible space. Don’t you just love these bullshit terms? Mind fuck terms is what i call a lot of it when you can’t just say keep your property area so it doesn’t burn. Defensible space ought to be where you have a machine gun mounted with a few claymores around and it may come to that some day.

      With the world the way it is I believe we need a few people living in the wild–they may be the only ones to carry on the human race when nuclear war breaks out. Strangely it seems that in India and other areas researched – has vitrified pottery and skeletons in the area that were dropped in the same fashion nuclear blasts kill people. . The radioactive residues are high in those places–that one in India had to be abandoned since the cancer incidence was too high in the area. So these were dated when the Chinese books had mentioned them and descriptions of nuclear type devices were being used by the gods–and the gods are back again–only hybrids these days. It is food for thought and archaeology not yet taught in schools. Actually there has been the use of crosses and swastikas for for many millennia before Christ and before Hitler. Just hope you are not around when the gods and their hybrids get pissed and have their hands on these killer technologies.

      How many of these nuclear power plants do we now have? The little country of Britain has 16, we have 99 with 5 in construction, and the world has 447 with 65 in construction. Can you imagine if Hitler were now bombing England with more accurate V-2’s and better explosives? He would not need a nuclear bomb–they have it already provided and that country would become a desolate nuclear waste land. That goes for the US as well with our soon to be 104. Can you imagine if these terrorists–and do not think it is not in their minds to do–figure a way to blow up a bunch of these. The southern hemisphere might one day have a surge of refugees.

      Australia has no nuclear reactors that we know of though there are plenty that want them. It might wind up being a safe haven for the English since you can go there if you are English. It does have 33% of the world’s Uranium and plenty of open land. I don’t know where the US population would go? But how many Americans even know how careless our political system has been in polluting our land–and these reactors are definitely pollution this country will regret–except the billionaires that are behind these things–and the majority of them either live out of the country in a safer area or they keep a safe area and castle to run to when the shit hits the fan.

      I can tell you that there won’t be many in that underground city below Denver unless it has to be a temporary thing being caught here.

      Most are smart like the Nazi’s. There is plan B, C, D,… and most are already in place. It might be good to own a nuclear sub and that is a strange thing that something like that might be man’s last safe haven.

      OK–these future generations have been fucked by the past one–well at least by a small percentage of their past generation. About 99% of the population has no clue.

      • Charlie says

        Considering the possibilities, putting up a wall between Mexico and US might be a bad idea. If all hell breaks loose here in the nuclear department Mexico might be the only alternative to escape a nuclear war zone—Could be we wind up being the people wanting to emigrate. I speak fluent Spanish–that is a good idea here in Arizona. Pretty soon the Hispanic population will outnumber the Anglo. That goes for all these Southwestern states that the US has acquired from Mexico.

        In my opinion Trump ought to lighten up on Mexico–they indeed are better off as neighbors not antagonists. Generally the Mexican people are good stock. What we get though is the news about the dope runner rogues there—and even they are just supplying the demand the US has for their product. And the system here is glad to oblige fighting the dope runners to the tune of billions. A better thing of course would be let our government cordon off areas for dopers and provide the dope at a cheap cost. But thing how many billions would be saved by sidelining the law enforcement costs and the billions as well holding so many dope criminals.

        Well anyway if you keep out the illegals, you are likely to find your working class diminished–and I doubt you find many people wanting to do farm labor.

  14. Joy A. Collura says

    Wwtktt-

    I want to wish you a happy new year.

    So many times my Leo father would say “seeing is believing” Joy.

    But what you SEE…is it truth Dad? Just because its seen?

    And since I was a kid I have been known to do amazing illusions and card tricks and so many neat stuff with invisible thread. A sort of odd kid…stunts and tricks…many look back and thought how did she…no way..scratching their heads..

    Seeing is believing…and my reply always since a kid… depends…

    where are you at in life…are you one tied to the fire industry or were personally affected…so depends on not only how you see it…perceptions..but how it is shown…or not shown..

    How does one speak up when there is an area bigger than some IM blog to be a platform to voice…where does one go…to feel safe to share…where…

    I was told by the bleachers in soon time I will get my seeing is believing moment and I do not see the way others see…

    Wwtktt is right from day one…any one and that includes me too if they cannot source so it has no curtains fogs or mirrors and it is said as pure as you came to such knowledge than carries no weight…yes 5 of us saw the evidence and yes 5 of us know how serious this is because as you are SEEING WWTKTT it is not just about YHF…

    It is strange to see the end or cliff notes and figure out what and how is the best way to ensure the data gets out not to the right audience but to the 🌎 world that everyday people get it.

    Just yesterday Donna of Red Cross said the ycso found the missing remains of the YHF aftermath of suicide hiker Mark Danielson and making sure to match up to dental records. When we first reported that on IM …Karen Patterson asked us on our hikes to be on lookout for her missing acquaintance Mark we did..we even hiked ycso..even people knew how many hours of dedication we did to look yet we learn from a local that did not even know the hours we did..just an innocent sharing of her life stuff..hmmm….where are the folks who stated Joy if we learn anything we will let you know…There has been many users in the YHF aftermath towards not just us bit many to meet their needs…narratives…agendas..angles.

    However going into 2017 my focus will be less fire and more to family and friends since 2016 took so many lives even almost both us hikers…and my TN family/folks are my focus after that bad fire…🔥

    So if I have a FOIA out…feel safe entity you are not my focus because what I pay for to get from you will not even match to the truths I have seen since August 2016. It would have to take people waking up and SEEING that I alone or even a small or large group could do much unless the proper set of folks engaged actively…I do not surrender yet I do pause…but I hope the bleachers during my pause surface…and stop focusing on “do you know how dangerous this is Joy..”….I have not spoken yet so y’all can do it properly and right but like I said YET..

    I always felt it was your place to speak up not me….but there will come a day even if its when old and ragged I will organize all the incoming data and purely place it out. Hard to do in current phase but any chance I am at my foia storage unit I am always organizing…that will never pause…

    In the start IM was just that…a place to state anything coming in to us…but my court case shifted it..saw the way a crony nepotism county works but when I do speak up and if they never do…you will see how many are affected not just by YHF but the ones in their own backyard…people who have lived their lives in high society positions…something I just won’t live even if I hit a jackpot or was heired such..always kids and elders will be my focus until I pass on…

    Kids are our future…what we do and say today does matter…So I am saying going into 2017 I am still at stance the bleachers keep doing what you do but I cannot know any further data because I am at the phase I just want the world to know as much as I know…but we all see why we cannot share until you work it out…I am tired of whispers…10 years ago…I had a dental hygienist Diane who we had the best times together may it be a hike or girly shopping or whatever we did..I had to close my times with her because she was stunning and graceful yet she would call me and talk normal than whispers…I would ask why the whisper and she said due to her husband’s career and her father’s very public high position they could not know she was good friends with me a housewife hiker who did not put my 40 hours in to any job area…like I was either great for hikes and shopping but no way could THEY know we hang out ALOT..I really enjoyed her and yet once she whispered I had to be straight up and tell her the whispers had to stop and she said she couldn’t so I blocked her numbers and emails and her snail mail letters were never opened and discarded. I am not the whispering kind or hold on to data…think of the kids..they are our future…so either keep telling me you are one step closer to the right….

    Because in the end if you don’t get right…get left….

    I just need to focus more to staying home than help another right now…this is my shifting year away from anything familiar and see new light into His plan…

    I will pop on in 2018. This is my year off IM so that will help some to gain a voice and not feel at ease for me to post their thoughts…2016 was a lot spoken under my name but not my thoughts…I tried to assist a lot of you but did not see any growth from it so now your seeds are spoken but now 2017 is my time to transition…I will not be looking to see what is said so if it is crucial than just email yarnellhikers19@gmail.com or leave voicemail 480.280.5813

    Have a Happy New Year world…
    And if it cannot be ☺ because soon a man will take office…than
    keep the faith and strength and always be mindful for the unexpected because in my community its caused a deep direct division because of the election…I can only focus to the now and here and ensure I know my watering sources if traditional is cut off and best food supply if that is cut off…

    Let me close…with…what images seem to appear may not be what it is….so look where the places not much talked about…for the raw truths…

    And Gary I do hope in my absence that I am taking long path like Marti Reed has…that don’t waste a reply on politics or what I wrote because I am not peaking here and John Dougherty can trace my ip address to prove that to be fact…I bet Bob and Marti’s 2016 was different not coming to IM but for pop ins…I am actually not coming at all not even fkr pop ins….I just have a lot of folks who need my energy elsewhere.

    Even if my blm foia comes back in a few weeks with important crucial data…it will be only be sent via email to the regulars of IM…Thank you John Dougherty for a new chapter…first and last comment for 2017…

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