Please begin Yarnell Hill Fire Chapter XXV here


Chapter I, Chapter II, Chapter II supplement, Chapter III, Chapter IV, Chapter V, Chapter VI, Chapter VII, Chapter VIII , Chapter IX,  Chapter X, Chapter XI, Chapter XII , Chapter XIII, Chapter XIV,  Chapter XV,  Chapter XVI, Chapter XVII, Chapter XVIII, Chapter XIX, Chapter XX, Chapter XXI, Chapter XXII, Chapter XXIII and Chapter XXIV.


© Copyright 2017 John Dougherty, All rights Reserved. Written For: Investigative MEDIA


  1. Joy A. Collura says

    where is everyone?

    so how is everyone’s Summer going?

    Since 6-8-17 I lost 63 pounds—it was 57 this morning but I had a very high intense workout and walk-
    I did it the hard way- cut out sugars and salts and oils and follow a strict type O diet-
    now I just have to take weight loss to total miles I walked and worked out—and graph it up…
    Life seems to be all about graphs and charts anyways…probably best for me as I ramble on-

    Another area I cleared out is my phones- gone.
    Yep the 480 and 928 no longer belong to me-
    With Sonny totally out of the picture and this time it is indeed totally done because of his lack ofs—
    I even pulled myself out of all legal areas too-
    He is where he is enjoying life-
    Yet his crap was tied to my number so best way to resolve that— get rid of phones-

    I want to thank the people who made it happen that I have probably the first hybrid fire industry handmade backpack that covers air to ground and structural and wildlands— It even has DESERT WALKER on it.

    Now that I have way too much time on my hands I am opening the horizons- h
    t t p s ://fred. stlouisfed. org/series/M2
    been reading about M-zero to the ghost levels of M-3

    In the total amount of money circulating in the money supply…where’s my money lying..Mzero is cash on hand…M1: cash on hand …bank…money on demand…
    M2: cash on hand and bank physically there and money market n short term funds bond investment short term maturity…M3 is for the wealth….does it exist..ghost…

    Worried about Mzero to 2…???

    Trillions in M2
    And of those trillions
    When u go to the money Mzero…It varies…and as low as 10% and minimal

    As Monday’s total solar eclipse sweeps from Oregon to South Carolina, U.S. I bet electric power and grid operators were glued to their monitoring systems and Sonny had his paid for eclipse glasses and probably enjoyed it as well—I know when I dropped my phones the guy on the line said he was in Idaho Falls and it was amazing the eclipse so I googled his area and got this:

    So anyone in the fire industry who watch these fires…some selective and some full out “watching”…do you ever think about the tactics today versus almost 20 years ago and do you think what is the future gonna look like…did you ever predict today’s tactics 20 years ago?
    Can you TIME CAPSULE TODAY a prediction? How many in the industry knew 20 years ago there would be the birth of the hybrid FF?

    Tyler Durden said: “Imagine if you will, what would happen if you pulled an American family from the 19th century, and plopped them in the middle of downtown Los Angeles during rush hour. They’re not given a warning, they’re not given any kind of primer on what they’re about to experience, and the occurrence is completely inexplicable. How long do you suppose they would last before they cried uncle? Would they even survive? The odds probably aren’t so good. Of course, the reverse is probably also true. If you and your family were wrenched from the comforts of the present and hurled back into a previous era, you might not fare so well either”…

    (but what about the fire industry- I would love to know HOW they would fight these fires if the money gravy train wasn’t present. (keep in mind the background data: 1. All commerce will cease.
    2. Communications will shut down. 3. Without electricity, all forms of fuel that our society relies on will stop flowing 4. And of course many of those farms will lack water, as will your plumbing.
    5. When the grocery stores are stripped bare, the pharmacies won’t be far behind. 6. And finally, one of the most shocking things that people will have to deal with, is the lack of GPS…In summary, law and order will break down at every level, and death will be around every corner. It’s one thing to grow up and live in an era that lacks electricity, but to be sent back to such a time on a moments notice would be one of the most challenging things that a person accustomed to modern amenities would ever face…so with that in mind how will they fight fires—will they suppress them FASTER then???)

    I am just hoping you all are doing good-
    I have been doing the labs and screenings and such and trying right now to rid of some clots naturally—and just good to visit here and say H E L L O

  2. Robert the Second says

    Today, mid-afternoon on August 19th, is the anniversary of the fatal 2015 Twisp River Fire on the Okanogan-Wenatchee NF in northeastern Washington, where three USFS employees were killed by fire after their Engine drove off the road in thick, blinding smoke, and several other USFS and Washington DNR employees working with the bulldozer, were burned after leaving the safety of the garage they sought refuge in once it caught fire.

    “Jennifer Zbyszewski, mother of Tom Zbyszewski, has read the report, and called it “well-written and a good summary of what happened.””

    Little does she know that ALL wildland fatality reports are written based on FIRST establishing the CONCLUSION and then finding the “FACTS” to fit that conclusion. The Twisp River Fire CRaP Review is no exception.

    “Zbyszewski herself is a Forest Service employee on the Methow Valley Ranger District, and is now back on the job.”

    There are several other employees that had connections to those that died that day that still work at the Methow Valley Ranger District, so please keep them in your prayers today.

    The wind shift was a COMMON, well-known local factor (Watch Out 4). Check out the Cliff Mass Blog link below.

    Washington Weather Research and Consulting meteorologist Paul Werth also noted in a January 2015 article that:

    “Topography matters”

    “The Methow Valley and similar narrow, rugged drainages are “really susceptible to hot, dry windy conditions” conducive to wildfire because of their topography, Werth said.

    “When marine air pushes up over the Cascade Mountains it drops down into the narrow valley and flows toward the Columbia River. As the air descends down the valley it compresses, warms and dries through a process called “adiabatic warming.””

    “The Methow Valley is a wind tunnel that the air is getting forced down 4,000-5,000 feet, and getting hotter and drier as it moves down the valley. For every 1,000 feet [elevation loss] air warms 5.5 degrees,” Werth said.”

    “That’s why it’s really a hot spot for fire, just due to topography,” he said. The Entiat Valley, Wenatchee Valley and Lake Chelan see similar weather patterns, he said.”

    Moreover, one of the Investigators revealed that those WFF on the left flank followed the basic WFF Rules and were just fine, while those on the right flank did NOT follow the Fire Orders or recognize and mitigate the Watch Out Situations and that is where all the firefighters were burned and died.

        • Bob Powers says

          We all dug deep but could find none. The Pictures joy talked about never resurfaced or verified to be from the shrine area.
          They could very well have been spot fires. No mention of any firing out or back fires from any one on the fire in that area. Still a unsubstantiated clame…

            • Bob Powers says

              Diane We have been through this in back chapters.

              They are Government Employees and were told not to discuss the fire with any one. By the Us attorneys for their own protection.
              Like it or not I and others called it a gag order. It dose not mean they have information the Government dose this all the time now. The redacted would answer questions maybe. The Government attorneys did the redactions before the release of the logs. They as represenitives had that right like it or not.

              So there we are stuck. Do I agree no I do not.

        • Joy Collura says

          Diane besides the videos and the FACTUAL ACTUAL folks who were working the fire in that area…lets say 4 Yarnell locals and a television station…if anyone else…I have not heard or seen it surface yet…

  3. Robert the Second says

    Happy August 1st.

    This is as good a time as any to refresh your interest and memory in the ongoing search for the truth regarding the Air-to-Air and Air-to-Ground AFUE recordings and transcripts.

    On August 1, 2013… ABC News Investigative Reporter James Gordon Meek sent his first ( of many ) emails to Jennifer Jones ( APR Public Affairs Specialist U.S. Forest Service, Washington Office, Fire and Aviation Management ) inquiring about this ‘Air Study’ at the Yarnell Hill Fire.

      • Robert the Second says

        Here are some quotes from the U.S. regarding your post:

        “Before they were able to collect useful AFUE data, the tragic burn-over involving the GMHS occurred …”

        “…. the AFUE team provided all of its original records to the [SAIT[.”

        “… All of the AFUE records were made publicly available by the State of Arizona through a link to an electronic ‘dropbox’ account …”

        “… All of the AFUE records were made publicly available by the State of Arizona through a link to an electronic ‘dropbox’ account, which contained all of the files from the state’s accident investigation.”

        • says

          I just reread Fred Schoeffler’s request for all Yarnell Hill fire air to ground voice recordings and written trNscripts from 3-5 pm on 6/30/13.
          He asked the court to compel USDA to turn over all records.
          Has this request been complied with?

      • Joy A Collura says

        Diane….I got mine…but that was from Arizona State Forestry…I don’t think they gave me it all…there is a missing binder still and hmmm cough cough…grow up you grown up men that were on the fire. I guarantee you Diane there is a kaleidoscope of data needing a helpful push forward…where is the big gorilla…the great grape ape anyways….or is he orange like wildfires….

        • says

          I just watched an older you tube video from ABC 15
          Regarding the SAIT investigation as it was beginning to form. A comment was made that someone , I believe the name was Marshall was asked to leave this group due to OSHA concerns.

          • Joy A Collura says

            Diane —a wonderful guy I found Marhsall to be…

            55 y.o. Marshall Eric Krotenberg.

            all I know Diane is I always gave my evidence as I got it to him—I really liked his team of him and Bruce Hanna and Brett Steurer and as I learned from google about who was running this area—here is what I learned about him:
            83′—Started Working at Tracer Research Corporation as a Field Project Leader
            85′—-Started Working at Western Technologies, Inc as a Project Manager
            86′—Started Studying Bachelor Of Science:
            Soil And Water Science at University of Arizona/Left Job at Western Technologies, Inc as a Project Manager
            90′—-Left Job at Tracer Research Corporation as a Field Project Leader
            91′—Started Working at Arizona Department Of Environmental Quality as a Compliance Officer – Drinking Water/Started Studying Ms, Toxicology at University of Arizona
            92′—Started Working at Arizona Department Of Occupational Safety And Health as a Compliance Officer
            95′—Started Working at City Of Tucson as a Industrial Hygienist
            98′—Started Working at Trw Vehicle Safety Systems as a Industrial Hygiene
            02′—Started Working at Rimkus Consulting Group as a Senior Consultant
            10′—Started Working at Arizona Division Of Occupational Safety And Health as a Compliance Officer
            12′—-Started Working at Arizona Division Of Occupational Safety And Health as a Compliance Supervisor
            another search engine search:
            83-90- Tracer Research Corporation
            85-86: Western Technologies, Inc (Project Manager/Field/Lab Technician)
            91-92 Arizona Department of Environmental Quality Compliance Officer – Drinking Water
            98-01 TRW Vehicle Safety Systems
            02-12′ Rimkus Consulting Group Environmental Division Manager
            10-12′ Arizona Division of Occupational Safety and Health Compliance Officer/Safety Compliance Supervisor
            12-14′ Arizona Division of Occupational Safety and Health Compliance Supervisor

            SO what was interesting when I first saw his pic, Diane was I remember that face from Paradise Valley/Chandler and Phoenix Scottsdale area as life has passed me by so I began to see WHO and their work backgrounds and how that fits in HOW TO DETERMINE HOW AND WHY 19 men died and if any rules were broken under their company guidelines….I started looking from that time the SAIR came out and a little before yet MOST when EN taught me what FOIAS/public records were and how she was in alot of foia log books for inquiries so I thought maybe I should do the same too…I won’t give up on the men mainly because of the children who are busy having to rebuild their lives so when they grow up they knew someone was looking for them…Did you know just on the Thompson rancher fire I have a hefty search time foia fee to pay but they want $7500 more and I am trying to figure how to make it work because the data is important to the future- but ain’t that crazy when you ask for FOIA from BLM that I would get that kind of reply yesterday—boggles my mind…because it stated it like that is just the start—$7500—it could even be MORE…for public records…??????…Sonny’s newer 2014 car blew up/exploded in flames earlier when he was driving it he smelled fire smoke he said and got out then it blew up— I hope they investigate that to see if it was someone trying to kill him or something—don’t add up with a newer car like that. Man, with all the rattlers coming his way after the rains and all the rough karma…I am just glad I did not witness this explosion…I really had an unforgettable week and I am focused to hikes and foias and health….Sorry I get on here and try and get Donut to share more yet if people would not ask me…like how would I know…I have seen Donut 16 times since the YHF and all in same room at same time may it be at bank or street- stuff like that—we never talked even when I said to his friend who I hiked Mando—no hi from Donut just Mando…so I just share public what others share to me…I was not even thinking of Donut— really it is an all about Joy summer to regain health and stuff….even barely seen Sonny this summer….I will close that I did have a life changing event this week (a newness) and I am trying to figure out what is right in it…do I just keep doing something for me or do I think always of the people around me like I always have…it’s an intoxicating decision that only I have to face- but I better face it…my neighbors asked me to come by today and I did see about 1/3 of the neighborhood and they asked me to hike them to the DZ…and share my day that day versus the media stuff…I told them they organize it all I will go- done it 34 times…what’s another time…they offered to pay me too and I do not run that way—-I will always take the time out freely for that in hopes someone I take shares their account or photos or story—you never know what they can give—could be good stuff—-

            • says

              Thank you for the information about Marshall.
              I am surprised that the SAIT team was not more objective.
              It appears that this team was possibly manipulated to produce a certain outcome rather than focus on the truth

              • says

                I came across some earlier quotes from Ted Putnam that are relevant “The biggest tribute we should do for these firefighters is to TELL the truth” and the state forestry division ordered GMHS to come off the mountain and go to Yarnell.

                • Norb Szczurek says

                  As you know by now the bottom line for crew safety lies with the crew supervisor and the crew members themselves. With that being said, the question remains – why did they leave the safe black? I don’t have any proof or facts to support this other than my experience, but I believe someone had to request/order them down. That in my mind is the only explanation a Type 1 crew ( fairly new but some experience) would leave solid black. Again, the safety of the crew remains with the crew supervisor. I believe this is where the human factors ( referenced before) come into play.

                  • Joy Collura says

                    Hey Norb…that is the obvious foreseen human factors but what about factors that lie not seen yet…could those factors assist in properly assessing this fire or are we better to buy into narratives?
                    What I have learned so far with much time sweat and money involved…that a fire can only be investigated so far when politics and agenda happen vs pure truth as it happened…

                    • Joy Collura says

                      Look at this…Diane and I who have nothing to do with the industry are up at 3 or 4am losing sleep….is anyone else?

                    • Norb Szczurek says

                      After I posted I realized I was stating the obvious – I have been called “captain obvious” before.
                      Over the past years there have been a lot of late nights spent on this tragic event, recently not so much. Thanks to people like you that continue to search for the real answers.

        • says

          I have been rereading the ADOSH report and found this statement from the introduction of granite mountain IHC Entrapment and Burnover Investigation:
          “Through ADOSH, we were given access to all information and personnel that we requested with the exception of the employees of the USDA forest service. The USDA forest service declined the request to allow their employees to be interviewed for this investigation.”
          On what grounds is this allowed?

          • Robert the Second says


            You may find this article helpful and interesting:


            “Recently, it was discovered that a support fire crew, the Blue Ridge Hotshots, were close to the fire and the last persons to be in radio communications with the 19 fallen fire fighters. Investigators from the state Forestry Division interviewed members of the Blue Ridge Hotshots. However, the interview notes taken by those investigators have not been disclosed publicly; nor did any information from those interviews appear in the Forestry Division’s later report on the fire.

            IAFF Local 3066 in Prescott and the Arizona state association have expressed concerns that the Forestry Division has purposely withheld important factual information learned from the Blue Ridge Hotshots in order to curtail its report and avoid accountability by the Forestry Division and its management officials.

            In addition, uncovered information indicates that members of the Blue Ridge Hotshots have been issued a ‘gag order’ directing them not to speak about their activities and contacts with the Granite Mountain Hotshots team before they were overrun by the fire.

            General President Harold Schaitberger authorized this Guardian Policy matter to examine the situation, to gain access to the withheld information by utilizing the Arizona open records law, and to take other appropriate action to ensure that all of the relevant information about the tragic deaths of the 19 IAFF members is fully and finally disclosed.

            On September 10, 2014, on behalf of the IAFF, the Professional Fire Fighters of Arizona, and the United Yavapai Firefighters Local 3066, requests were submitted to both the Arizona State Forestry Division and the Arizona Division of Occupational Safety and Health, under the Arizona open records law. A.R.S. §39-121. These requests seek all notes, statements, memoranda, summaries, transcripts, drafts, findings, photographs, radio transmissions, videos, and all other documents and materials in any way related to the Blue Ridge Hotshots and the Yarnell Hill Fire and the deaths of the 19 fire fighters on June 30, 2013.

            These two state agencies have until October 1, 2014 to respond to these requests.”

            Recall, that there never really was a “gag order” by the USFS. There was Agency “direction” in the form of official letters and supervisory “direction” which then allows the Agency to discipline their employees for insubordination or failure to follow orders if they do not comply.

            • says

              Thank you for this information and the link to the article-I have just started reading it. Wanted to ask you if the location of the Blue Ridge hotshots just before the bud over is known.
              Hopefully the content of the communications between them and granite mountain shortly before the burn over will be revealed soon

              • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

                Reply to Diane lomas post on August 8, 2017 at 12:06 pm

                >> Diane Lomas asked…
                >> Wanted to ask you if the location of the Blue Ridge
                >> hotshots just before the burn over is known.


                Based on other evidence that IS available… such as…

                1. The HEAVILY REDACTED Blue Ridge Unit Logs that were eventually released.
                2. Photographs
                3. Videos

                …the whereabouts of all but one of the Blue Ridge Hotshots in the timeframe prior to the 4:42 PM ‘burnover’ are known.

                The one Blue Ridge Hotshots whose exact ‘whereabouts’ and ‘activities’ in this pre-burnover timeframe are still NOT fully known would be Cory Ball… the BR Hotshot who was assigned earlier in the day to act as HEQB/DOZB for the Yavapai County bulldozer that was working that Yarnell end of the fire that entire day.

                In his Unit Log ( and in one of his written statements that was left UNREDACTED )… Cory Ball states that in this ‘timeframe’…

                ( quote )

                “…me and one other assigned by SPGS1 ( Gary Cordes ) to scout out possible dozer line ( southwest of Yarnell and near Glen Ilah subdivision ).”

                Cory Ball had borrowed an ATV from the Yarnell Fire Station and was in the process of attempting to fulfill this ‘directive’ from Gary Cordes in the timeframe prior to the burnover.

                If even just UNREDACTED copies of those original Blue Ridge Hotshot Unit Logs could be obtained… we would probably know a LOT more about what really happened that day.

                The CLAIM that US Forestry originally made for the MASSIVE ‘redactions’ in the Blue Ridge Hotshot Unit Logs was simply ‘sensitive information’.

                ‘Sensitive’… to WHO?… and for WHAT REASON?

                FOIA laws state specifically that ’embarrassing information’ is NEVER a valid reason for claiming ‘redactions’ on a publicly available document.

                As much as some WFF’s like to ‘pretend’ they are a ‘pseudo-military’ organization… only the actual military or actual government intelligence agencies are allowed to claim redactions due to ‘classified information’.

                Whatever lies beneath those MASSIVE ‘black outs’ in the Blue Ridge Hotshots Unit Logs might tell the complete ‘story’… but we would certainly know a LOT more details about that day if those ‘redactions’ were not there.

                • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

                  Typo in paragraph above.

                  I left the word ‘not’ out of a sentence.

                  Last paragraph above should have read like this…

                  Whatever lies beneath those MASSIVE ‘black outs’ in the Blue Ridge Hotshots Unit Logs might not tell the complete ‘story’… but we would certainly know a LOT more details about that day if those ‘redactions’ were not there.

                  • says

                    Blue ridge hotshot’s—
                    I am wondering if the Blue Ridge hotshot’s and others set a fire in the shrine area to try to stop the fire from burning into the Boulder Spri ngs Ranch area. Could this be in part why Blue Ridge information has been redacted and they have been prevented from testifying?
                    It has been stated that Blue Ridge were among the last to communicate with Granite Mountain–could they have been trying to warn them of the fire that they may have set in shrine area?

                    • Joy Collura says

                      Diane…books and movies can be made…men and women may receive accolades…yet in the end…God is not interested in the stories just the TRUTH…the lips that lay sealed as some say until they die…life happens and have hope that as time unfolds and some work through their trauma and grief…I recently stepped out of my normalcy and I have to figure out when moving forward I am true versus what I just as a foggy phase to my life. I have now saw bravery through the tragedy and its not in the movie but the children who carry on….those are the brave ones…

                    • Joy Collura says

                      Diane…as you see my life I have never led it by puppet strings yet in that I need to allow God to cloak me tighter…so the word of God radiates
                      The men
                      movie address

                    • says

                      If Blue Ridge set a fire in the shrine area that burned west to attempt to keep fire out of the BSR area and may have contributed to the entrapment of GMHS Blue Ridge could have been devastated.
                      If they lit the fire in the shrine area I’m sure they had no idea that GMHS could be entrapped by this action.

                    • says

                      I am not the first to ask about Blue Ridge and or other firefighters setting a fire in the Shrine area prior to burnover. Joy stated that there was footage from a news crew that recorded this.

                    • Bob Powers says

                      The main fire caught the crew.
                      Two separate heads ran south crossing the Tractor line that was built in the Morning and went thru the air tanker slurry line moving south over the flats. This southern run was created by 20 plus MPH winds. There was no one near the BSR that could have set a Back Fire in those conditions.

                  • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

                    Two ways…

                    1. Request the UNREDACTED copies of the ‘Blue Ridge Unit Logs’ ( which are KNOWN to be in US Forestry’s possession ), let them claim the same ‘sensitive information’ exclusion… and then appeal the FOIA response, let it go to court, and let a JUDGE decide what constitutes ‘sensitive information’. They are NOT allowed to make redactions to things in an FOIA response just because THEY consider things in the documents to be ‘sensitive information’.

                    2. Encourage someone who has access to the original Blue Ridge Hotshot Unit Logs to simply ‘leak’ them online somewhere.

                  • says

                    Reply to Bob powers about firing out from BSR—I was referring to firing out from the Shrine–not from BSR. In your opinion could a back fire have occurred from The Shrine?

                    • Robert the Second says


                      Discussions over the years with WFF’s in The Shrine as they were disengaging and pulling out said there were no burnouts or backfiring operations, only extreme natural fire resulting from the intense outflow winds from the North.

                      I think it is long past time for you to accept that the GMHS supervisors, along with some PFD influence regarding structure protection, were responsible for their deaths.

                      No one forced or ordered or made them leave their perfectly good Safety Zone.

      • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

        Reply to Diane lomas post on August 12, 2017 at 10:16 am

        >> Diane lomas said…
        >> Perhaps the release of the film “Only The Brave” will result in renewed
        >> interest in the truth of what happened on this fire.

        I believe it will.

        Considering the level of ‘coverup’ that followed this tragedy… it would be negligence on the part of the mainstream media to NOT cover this aspect of ‘the story’ at the same time they are reporting on the new ‘fillum’ when it is released.

        A ‘film’ is always just a ‘film’.

        It is a ‘dramatization’… and it is meant to make money for the investors.

        But any ‘fillum’ that CLAIMS it is ‘based on a true story’, or actually claims to BE the ‘true story’ ( as actor Josh Brolin has already claimed publicly )… the people who review movies themselves have an obligation to let viewers know where the ‘fillum’ stands on the BULLSHIT meter.

  4. Joy A Collura says

    • says

      When Granite Mountain was asked to help with resources in Yarnell and they declined why didn’t Blue Ridge take on this responsibility?
      Not sure that I have understood why Granite Mountain ended up taking such a huge role.

      • Robert the Second says


        Brian Frisby and the Blue Ridge Hot Shots stepped in and acted in a quasi Division Supervisor and Task Force role respectively once DIVS Z Rance Marquez abandoned his Division, supposedly because he had no resources.

        DIVS are either assigned a geographic piece of fireline or a specific task as a Group Supervisor, i.e. Structure Group. They cannot just abandon their responsibilities without notifying Operations and getting someone to fill that role in their stead.

        Regarding: “Not sure that I have understood why Granite Mountain ended up taking such a huge role.”

        I’m not sure that you have either.

        The two primary GMHS leadership were ultimately responsible for the safety and welfare of those they supervised – period – their crew, the GMHS. And they failed miserably at that. Marsh, even though separate from the Crew in a DIVS role continued to try to lord it over Steed and adversely influence him to do what he wanted rather than what was safe for the Crew.

        The PFD also had a hand in their imagined and perceived structure protection role that day as well as on the previous Doce Fire.

        PFD Wildland Battalion Chief Willis at the July 2013 basically said (paraphrasing) hat it was ‘ingrained in them … that structures came first and firefighter safety was a last resort.’

        He also used the Logical Fallacies of False Analogy and Equivocation when he stated that was why firemen run into burning buildings, And he also claimed that no WFF was satisfied sitting in the black while structures were threatened below.

        Please do your best to let go of the ‘hero’ fairy tale, that the big bad fire killed them, and there was nothing anyone could have done to prevent that. The only heroes on the GMHS are the Rookies, the first and second year crewmembers that were following the lead of the more experienced ones.

        • says

          Thank you RTS,
          I hadn’t realized the impact that Rance MartineZ’ departure had on resources and that Blue Ridge needed to cover for this.
          This also highlights the significance of the power struggle that Marsh and Steed were experiencing.
          Since marsh was supervising did he request blue ridge to cover Rance’s responsibilities?
          I’m wondering what was happening for the 51 minutes from blow up to burn over?
          Was this time spent in a power struggle with marsh and steed and possibly others?

          • Robert the Second says


            That’s what good WFF’s do, especially good Hot Shot Crews, they make things happen, many times not a good idea because they are often making a ‘failed system’ work. I believe the Frisby and the BRHS took the lead on covering for Marquez. Marsh may have had some say in it but don’t know for sure.

            I believe the power struggle between the GMHS overhead was ongoing for quite some time regarding their personalities and different supervisory styles. The Crew loved working for Steed.

            You posted: “I’m wondering what was happening for the 51 minutes from blow up to burn over?”

            Like the other two classic, fatal “lunch spot” fires I referred to the other day, they were waiting to be engaged and engaged to wait, basically nothing very physical.

            And: “Was this time spent in a power struggle with marsh and steed and possibly others?”

            Yes indeed. Reread this AZ Central article:

            I would hope there was some type of power struggle with others as well, like with the Squad Bosses and others that were supporting Steed and his reluctance to leave the safe black. There are MANY alive today that were on the YH Fire monitoring the GMHS Crew net “discussing our options” radio transmissions that heard all this.

        • Robert the Second says


          Surely, you have read and reread the “discussing our options” account on this IM site and the AZ Central article posted on this IM site numerous times.

          I seriously doubt that he was giving his men more time to rest.

          He was doing his best to stand his ground against DIVS A Marsh’s commands, disparagement, and protests.

          He was trying to keep them safe in the good black, their Safety Zone.

  5. Joy A. Collura says ( ridgeline hilltop, above the lunch spot…) (Cerrillos, New Mexico)

    for the locals who keep asking me where on the Weavers did they film ONLY THE BRAVE—-

    the link provides you some source of many—that is the made for movie not REALITY folks-
    anyone in the film industry knows it is the best financial route to film in NM
    it was filmed alot in NM—

    • Joy A Collura says

      Dear Donut 🍩

      I got a call about you last night…scruffy and glazed….and greeting about everyone as Bro or brother nowadays…

      Then I fell asleep after that talk.

      Donut, I than in dream state saw you come to my home at 12:28pm and we talked for a good bit and I asked can we hike out to some crucial spots I eyewitnessed and surprisingly you said you bet and that it looks like I could use a hike.

      I could not take offense because in reality I can walk 50 miles and have and still so far stout. I have dropped this summer so far almost 40 pounds just eliminating salt oils and sugars and mainly a cruciferous way but still have not got to point where I am not stout yet…so in REAL TIME Donut I think it would be a great healing time for you and I to do just that without a soul knowing…just you and me getting on the Weavers real time and talk. The person who called stated you made a challenge to a IC person to call you ( )
      …If you come to my home be prepared I know I was there 6.30.13 but any questions I had for that day I have documented so maybe I can even offer you some clarity and realities to the day you were ill…maybe you do not even know some data because you were eating a hamburger…I think much healing would happen for us both and no one ever has to know….I think in this all you have had to watch in each setting how to represent and with me you can be raw and real and messy and no one would ever ever know until I passed on. That’s my guarantee to you no matter your age…ok….you can be 50 and come to my home at 12:28pm….my door is always open. You may feel the public did You right so far but I know more…you ever want to learn what I know…my door is open.

      Yet you want to challenge a IC on social media to call ya…I extend the same that we have a private time in person to go over the day because maybe just maybe some of the whispers fed to you were giving you wrong data with no sources and so maybe just maybe I can give you some internal healings because I think you deserve it after all you to me are not the survivor but the other kid who had a seizure who I have seen in my meditation is a survivor too…the rookies. Had he not got ill in recent weeks he would of been out there. You know also your position that day was a gift from Above because it was not your normal position for you and another loved one would have her husband today. Also the survivor role fits only so far because you are last alive yet you left early enough and did not face the same final moments that the media and world are glazing it out to be. You survived alright but always until I pass will feel watching from the mountaintop feel you were in danger in unburned fuel on that little hill we saw you hot as hell and miserable.

      When the gravy runs dry…and it usually does…I will be here.

      God Bless to you Donut…

      • Joy A Collura says

        …the rookies.

        Explain only to you in person why I pluralized that knowing it was not your first season.

      • Robert the Second says


        Error message on your Facebook link above. )

        “The page you requested cannot be displayed right now. It may be temporarily unavailable, the link you clicked on may be broken or expired, or you may not have permission to view this page.”

        • Woodsman says


          Here is a portion of the discussion:

          Replies to William M.’s comment on Brendan Mcdonough’s post.
          View post
          William M. Riggles
          “We’re taking the fire head on and saving the town!!!” What can 19 hotshots with chainsaws, shovels and pulaskis do to stop a fire driven by downdrafts off a storm cell? That’s one line in the movie, makes me hate it! It’s the “hero” mentality that led to your crew getting trapped! The darn movie glorified it.
          3Hide · Jul 19
          View previous replies…
          Brendan Mcdonough
          William M. Riggles as in overhead I mean the IC team. I can sit here and factually negate what your saying. My supt during my few seasons as a hotshot asked the crew multiple times there comfort level and turned down plenty of assignments. We can take a look at a few things in Yarnell. When the plane dropped on my brothers test burn in the morning, which my supt had given them information about requesting they drop on the green side of the test burn and they dropped right on the test burn. What would of happened if they could of carried that out? Let’s look at there decision to go direct. They only went a few hundred yards if that and told the team if we can’t get a helicopter to work with us on this direct edge we don’t feel comfortable going any further. They didn’t get a helicopter so they didn’t go any further. You talk about the weather event, what about the fact that there was two weather events that day and people have said they didn’t get that relayed information. I had mentioned my brothers being asked to head to Yarnell and the reference to the time frames what about that? Does no one get held accountable for those trigger points and time frames that changed so drastically and weren’t calculated for properly? Oh ya I forget the fact they switched teams mid day? Also a plane sent by someone on the team to go check on my brothers and report back, they didn’t do it, so they timed out and didn’t even pass on the information to the incoming plane to what needed to be done. They talk about not knowing where there safety zone was. We were told that morning by someone on the team that the ranch was a bombproof safety zone. We can do this all day, who ultimately made the decision my crew but I dare you and others to ask why, why did they make that decision. Because they were asked too and told they had enough time and weren’t properly informed. If you care to carry this conversation on my cell phone is on my Facebook page and I reply back to my messages.
          4Hide · Jul 21
          William M. Riggles
          No thanks. This feels too confrontational. Sorry about busting in on your page. Later my friend, take care.
          2Hide · Jul 21

          “We can do this all day, who ultimately made the decision my crew but I dare you and others to ask why, why did they make that decision.”

          I want to know why as well, Mr. McDonough, I very much do. Take care of yourself.


          • Woodsman says

            Here is another comment by Mr. Riggles that I know RTS will like… & so do I.

            William M. Riggles
            I am the type of person who would of refused to follow everyone else down that canyon. I base my decisions on logic and experience, not emotions and “everybody else is doing it”. Maze Creek, CO (1978), our crew boss refused to hike us into a canyon one morning, the other crews called us names as they passed us by. The boss said as soon as the sun hits that hillside all those spots from yesterday will blow up. He called it right, several crews had to run a mile or more uphill with the fire on their tails. The stragglers almost didn’t make it. I was a rookie back then, and I learned a valuable lesson that saved OUR lives later. I say this because everybody on fire needs to think for themselves. Call out bad decisions and discuss it among the crew. I’m not afraid to speak in the face of adversity. It saves lives.
            Edited · 2Hide · Jul 21
            William M. Riggles
            Tammy Clow-Kennedy My audience hopefully are the people who work in wildland fire.
            1Hide · Jul 21
            Elizabeth Shaffer
            You worthless piece of shit. Go fuck yourself william …
            Hide · Jul 21
            Brendan Mcdonough
            William M. Riggles the Statement refers to a different fire. Also I don’t see that you were apart of the research team who investigated the Yarnell hill fire. Even if you did read the investigation there was factual information left out of the investigation because of time restraints on finishing. There is a radio transmission asking my brothers to get to Yarnell and to even speed it up was left out of the investigation and no one will admit to asking them to do so. What about the fact my brothers were told by multiple resources that they had an hour plus before the fire would hit the north end of town? When it burned through the entire north end and south end within 15 mins or so. Get your facts straight before you open your mouth about dead men who can’t defend themselves. I want people to learn about the tragedy but you have provided no true research beyond what you are told. I mean no disrespect but talk to someone who is truly still investigating the fire and finding new information about it daily.
            Edited · 12Hide · Jul 21
            William M. Riggles
            Thanks for the personal response Brendan. I did assume the overhead requested the crew to go to Yarnell. I also heard there was a transmission requesting the crew. I have followed this closely. From the last photo the crew took, I can tell a lot about the weather affecting your fire. They don’t teach this stuff anymore.

            …And in reward for Mr. Riggles solid safety viewpoint he was presented with the 100% classy advice to go fuck himself. Lovely.

            Hey Mr Riggo: Keep the message alive. I was presented with something eerily similar to what you describe just a couple of months ago. Ordered to hike my crew down a drainage to cut line with fire below coming into the peak of the burn cycle. My answer? Ummm.No. I filed a complaint on that one.


          • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

            Reply to Woodsman post on July 28, 2017 at 3:09 pm

            >> Woodsman said…
            >> Here is a portion of the ( Brendan McDonough Facebook ) discussion:…

            Brendan says a LOT of interesting things there, in just a few short paragraphs.

            One of the most interesting is THIS…

            Brendan McDonough said…

            …a plane sent by someone on the team to go check on my brothers and report back, they didn’t do it, so they timed out and didn’t even pass on the information to the incoming plane to what needed to be done.

            Brendan is obviously referring to the ongoing ‘mystery’ of whether or not the aircraft designated ‘Bravo 33’ ( Occupants: Thomas French, John Burfiend and trainee Clint Cross ) ever actually did stop and do a ‘safety check’ on Granite Mountain that afternoon… when all the shit was hitting the fan.

            OPS1 Todd Abel testified that he did, in fact, ASK ‘Bravo 33’ to ‘fly down and check on Granite Mountain’… and Abel also testified that they DID, in fact, do that and reported back to him that GM was ‘in the safe black’.

            But Thomas French and John Burfiend ‘testified’ ( to the SAIT ) that it was the exact opposite.

            THEY ‘testified’ that they, themselves ( on their own ) had heard about some ground headed to a ‘safety zone’… and that it was THEIR idea to do a ‘full stop’ on the Air Operations and fly down to check on this ‘crew’.

            THEY testified that THEY are the ones who then asked OPS1 Todd Abel if he wanted them to fly down and do this ‘safety check’… but that it was OPS1 Todd Abel who ‘shut them down’ and said it wasn’t necessary since the ‘crew’ in question was ‘Granite Mountain’ and they were already in the ‘safe black’.

            BOTH of those ‘versions’ of what happened cannot both be TRUE.

            Someone is ( and always has been ) LYING about just this one important ‘event’ from the afternoon of June 30, 2013.

            I believe that proves Brendan has, in fact, been ‘keeping up’ with discussions on this IM forum.

            It was HERE where that ‘discrepancy’ in the testimonies about this supposed ‘safety check’ were first discussed… and after 2 investigations, 4 books and a movie… I believe this forum is still the ONLY place where the truth about that one event is still even being sought.

            Another interesting thing in McDonough’s recent Facebook post…

            Brendan McDonough also said…

            Let’s look at there decision to go direct. They only went a few hundred yards if that and told the team if we can’t get a helicopter to work with us on this direct edge we don’t feel comfortable going any further. They didn’t get a helicopter so they didn’t go any further.

            That appears to be NEW information.

            This was NOT reported in any investigation… or in any BOOK… including Brendan’s OWN book…. nor does Brendan appear to have mentioned this little tidbit in any public interview he has given while out doing his ‘book tours’.

            There actually IS ‘photographic evidence’ ( including VIDEO evidence ) that Helicopters WERE ‘supporting’ the work that Granite Mountain was doing up there on that ridge.

            The incident where the ‘Skycrane Helicopter’ almost crashed into the VLAT that was coming over the ridge is one example.

            Blue Ridge Hotshot Brian Frisby’s written testimony about Helicopters working ‘out there’ is another example.

            The reason that Skycrane was ‘out west’ there near the ridge is because it WAS making drops in the area where Granite Mountain was working.

            The pilot of that ‘Skycrane’ was ( apparently ) NEVER interviewed by ANYONE.

            There is also no evidence in the public record of this ‘request for helicopter support’ that Brendan ( only now? ) appears to be saying came from Granite Mountain.

            No member of the ‘team’ ( fire command? ) that Brendan seems to be referring to ever testified to receiving any such ‘request’ from Granite Mountain that day.

            Brendan continues to give the impression of what many have suspected for so long now.

            That even now… he does, in fact, ‘know more’ than he is willing to say about things that happened that day.

            • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

              Typo above.

              I left the word ‘crew’ out of a sentence.

              Paragraph above should have read like this…

              THEY ( Thomas French and John Burfiend ) ‘testified’ that they, themselves ( on their own ) had heard about some GROUND CREW headed to a ‘safety zone’… and that it was THEIR idea to do a ‘full stop’ on the Air Operations and fly down to check on this ‘crew’.

            • Woodsman says


              …and if memory serves, didn’t Bravo33 ask ops if ‘we need to take a time-out’ during this supposed crew ‘welfare check?’

              • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

                Reply to Woodsman post on July 28, 2017 at 7:43 pm

                >> Woodsman said…
                >> …and if memory serves, didn’t Bravo33 ask ops
                >> if ‘we need to take a time-out’ during this
                >> supposed crew ‘welfare check?’


                Here is the exact testimony from the SAIT’s own ‘interview’ with ‘Bravo 33’…

                From PDF page 15 ( of 60 pages ) in the SAIT ‘Yarnell Investigation Notes’…

                I heard something about a crew being in a safety zone. I called ops ( Todd Abel ) and asked “do we STOP and go look for the crew?” Ops said “no, they are safe, it’s Granite Mountain”. I didn’t know that Blue Ridge was there until we were home watching the news.

                So yea… according to French and Burfiend… they WERE perfectly ready to call a ‘time-out’ in the Air Support operations just to fly down and make SURE that Granite Mountain was OK and staying ‘in the safe black’.

                Now compare that with OPS1 Todd Abel’s own ‘recollection’ of the same event… ( from PDF page 40 of Abel’s interview with the ADOSH investigators )…

                I then jump on the radio, uh, on air to ground with Bravo 33 and, uh, asked John Burfiend… I said hey… when you get a chance… I need you to run down to the south end…. I need you to run down, uh, south and check on Granite – Division Alpha and Granite Mountain and Blue Ridge.

                He said “copy that”.

                So then John made a run down there, everybody looked good, the were in the black… no, you know ev- no issues, no nothing. So everybody was good.

                So someone has always been LYING about this.

                My money on the REAL story would be the way Thomas French and John Burfiend tell it… and here are just a few reasons why…

                1. Notice that French and Burfiend say they had no idea that the Blue Ridge Hotshots were even AT the Yarnell Hill Fire until they heard it later on television…. but also notice that OPS1 Todd Abel testified that ‘checking on the Blue Ridge Hotshots’ was PART of the ‘request’ he supposedly made of French and Burfiend. If that ‘request’ really had been made… then French and Burfiend WOULD have been ‘aware’ ( at the moment ) that the ‘Blue Ridge Hotshots’ WERE on the south side of the fire.

                2. If French and Burfiend really did do a ‘timeout’ and go and check on Granite Mountain, Division Alpha, and the Blue Ridge Hotshots… you would think there would be some ‘evidence’ of that somewhere in the Air-To-Air radio channel traffic.

                There is NOTHING… and we DO have an absolute ‘contiguous’ A2A radio channel recording covering this entire timeframe.

                There is absolutely NO A2A radio traffic to indicate that ‘Bravo 33’ ever took ANY kind of ‘timeout’ to go and do any kind of ‘welfare check’ on anyone that afternoon.

                So that tends to also support French and Burfiend’s side of the story.

                They probably did OFFER to take such a ‘timeout’ and go do the ‘welfare check’… but the reason there is no A2A radio traffic to indicate they ever did such a thing… is because OPS1 Todd Abel really did ‘call them off’ and tell them it wasn’t necessary… so it never happened.

                The ADOSH investigators were allowed to interview OPS1 Todd Abel… but they were never allowed to interview Thomas French, John Burfiend or Clint Cross ( the occupants of ‘Bravo 33’ ).

                • Woodsman says

                  In other words, McDonough believes Bravo33 neglected to check on GM when instructed to & abandoned them by not passing on the task to the incoming aircraft while preponderance of evidence suggests that they had every intention to do just that when they heard of a crew moving to a safety zone, but did not due to a ground supervisor instructing them it was not necessary. If this is true, why was the task offered by the aircraft to check on the crew turned down?

                  Gee…if we just had a known copy of the A2G radio traffic we could clear this up toot sweet. Too bad something like an air-study research project wasn’t taking place on this fire that day. Oh, wait…

                  • Robert the Second says

                    Woodsman and WTKTT,

                    Good discussion, thanks.

                    “Gee…if we just had a known copy of the A2G radio traffic we could clear this up toot sweet. Too bad something like an air-study research project wasn’t taking place on this fire that day. Oh, wait…”

                    That is correct, just wait, I am working on it.

                    Germane to the discussion, here are some of my favorite McDonough Facebook posts and responses.

                    “You talk about the weather event, what about the fact that there was two weather events that day and people have said they didn’t get that relayed information.”

                    Really? The GMHS had the best vantage point of anyone on the entire YH Fire, save Air Attack. It is safe to say that they could clearly SEE the weather coming in and they also acknowledged the weather updates, i.e. “the relayed information.” What about the People have said …”. What people, who said…?

                    “Does no one get held accountable for those trigger points and time frames that changed so drastically and weren’t calculated for properly?”

                    Correct, No one gets held accountable for those trigger points and time frames that changed so drastically and weren’t calculated for properly” because that is each Resource’s responsibility to do that.

                    GTS “Weather forecasts and the law” and this is what you get.

                    18 U.S. Code § 2074 – False weather reports
                    Current through Pub. L. 114-38.

                    “Whoever knowingly issues or publishes any counterfeit weather forecast or warning of weather conditions falsely representing such forecast or warning to have been issued or published by the Weather Bureau, United States Signal Service, or other branch of the Government service, shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than ninety days, or both.

                    (June 25, 1948, ch. 645, 62 Stat. 795; Pub. L. 103–322, title XXXIII, § 330016(1)(G), Sept. 13, 1994, 108 Stat. 2147.)”

                    Clearly, the NWS “time frames” (forecast) were based on their best professional judgement of the changing weather, i.e. the intense outflow winds. The trigger points set by Operations were also based on their best professional judgement of the changing weather which changes fire behavior, basic S-190.

                    Also, McDonough spouts: “Oh ya I forget the fact they switched teams mid also,”

                    Okay, so what? The basic WFF Rules still apply no matter who is in charge of the fire. Each Resource Boss is ultimately responsible for the safety and welfare of those they supervise. Period!

                    “They talk about not knowing where there safety zone was.”

                    So what again. That was the GMHS responsibility to do that based on the Basic WFF Rules, i.e. Fire Order Number 7 – maintain prompt communications with your supervisor …” and LCES. They chose NOT to do that based on their habit of not wanting the Overhead to know their intentions, etc.

                    We can do this all day, who ultimately made the decision my crew but I dare you and others to ask why, why did they make that decision.

                    “Because they were asked too and told they had enough time and weren’t properly informed.”

                    Really? They were asked to? Once again, the Basic WFF Rules applied here. Each Resource Boss is ultimately responsible for the safety and welfare of those they supervise. Period!

                    “William M. Riggles the Statement refers to a different fire.”

                    So what, he is making a point about following the Basic WFF Rules and how they work, every time.

                    “Also I don’t see that you were apart of the research team who investigated the Yarnell hill fire.”

                    Correct because they do not want those like William Riggles on the investigation teams. The SAIT was comprised of those that would toe the Party Line and conclude that there was “no indication of negligence, reckless actions, or violations of policy or protocol.” In other words, they did everything correctly and 19 WFF died in one fell swoop. That is impossible!

                    The SAIT ensured that they would first establish a conclusion (see above) and find the “facts” to fit that conclusion. Classic from as far back as the 1949 Mann Gulch Fire.

                    “Even if you did read the investigation there was factual information left out of the investigation because of time restraints on finishing.”

                    Factual information left out, are you kidding me? Yes, indeed, there was all kinds of “factual information” left out of the SAIR and not just because of “time restraints on finishing.” See above.

                    “There is a radio transmission asking my brothers to get to Yarnell and to even speed it up was left out of the investigation and no one will admit to asking them to do so.”

                    Yes, there was that radio transmission and it does not matter who said that. See above – Each Resource Boss is ultimately responsible for the safety and welfare of those they supervise. Period!

                    “What about the fact my brothers were told by multiple resources that they had an hour plus before the fire would hit the north end of town? ”

                    What about it? See above. They had the best vantage point of anyone on the YH Fire, save AA. Plus, following the Basic WFF Rules and the fact that each Resource Boss is ultimately responsible for the safety and welfare of those they supervise. Period!

                    “When it burned through the entire north end and south end within 15 mins or so.”

                    That is correct and the GMHS saw all of that transpiring before their very eyes, their professional, experienced eyes. Moreover, Captain Steed was insisting that they could not or would not make it to the BSR as demanded by DIVS Marsh. In addition, there is the informative NIFC training poster titled “Only Minutes – Blowup to Burnover” which indicates that the GMHS had an entire 52 minutes to make a good sound decision and they fatally failed becaue of all the time the GMHS Overhead were having a power struggle over their Crew Net radio (which MANY WFF heard and have record of).


                    “Get your facts straight before you open your mouth about dead men who can’t defend themselves.”

                    On the contrary, William Riggles does have his facts straight. it is McDonough that does NOT have his “facts” straight.

                    Unfortunately and very predictably, those men are dead and cannot defend themselves BECAUSE they repeatedly failed to follow the Basic WFF Rules like so many others, especially those on the YH Fire that day and countless other wildland fires every fire season.

                    “I want people to learn about the tragedy but you have provided no true research beyond what you are told.”

                    If McDonough wants us “to learn about the tragedy” then maybe it would be wise for him to stop lying and start telling us the truth about what he heard that day on the GMHS Crew net and other GMHS discussions that led up to their fatalities.

                    I, addition, I think William Riggles is using his past wildland fire training and experiences to come to the conclusions he openly points out, to the chagrin of SOOOO many that have no clue of what they are talking about, purely based on emotions and “what they are told.” It’s time to set your fawning, obsequious, and worshiping public straight McDonough.

                    “I mean no disrespect but talk to someone who is truly still investigating the fire and finding new information about it daily.”

                    There are those of us that are doing just that McDonough.


                    Go the the BLUE word “sued” in the second line which is the link to the actual lawsuit.

                    • Robert the Second says

                      I inadvertently skipped one:

                      “We can do this all day, who ultimately made the decision my crew but I dare you and others to ask why, why did they make that decision.”

                      Yes, correct, the GMHS ultimately made the decision to abandon their perfectly good Safety Zone at the worst possible time.

                      Do this all day? Are you kidding me, McDonough has been doing this all day for several years now, since June 30, 2013. It’s SOOO much easier to blame it all on the weather, the various IMT’s and/or overhead, whatever, rather than buck up and admit the truth.

                      And that includes the REAL reason that you were elected to be the GMHS Lookout that fatal day. Do you suppose it had anything to do with you being the most hung over and sick from it that day?

                      You dare us, really? Here goes – WHY did they make that fatal decision?

                    • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

                      Reply to Robert the Second ( RTS ) post
                      on July 29, 2017 at 11:48 am

                      >> RTS said…
                      >> Woodsman and WTKTT,
                      >> Good discussion, thanks.

                      And a good ‘breakdown’ of McDonough’s ‘comments’ yourself… thank you.

                      It really is quite astounding… the things that lone GM survivor Brendan McDonough has just spewed out publicly on Facebook.

                      Yes… there is just ONE sentence where he admits that his ‘crew’ made the ultimate fatal decisions(s) all on their own…

                      …but mostly he is still just playing the ‘deflection’ game and making a case that it was simply mis-information from OTHERS that caused his crewmates to burn to death on June 30, 2013.

                      That being said… this litany of “Hey… what about THIS….” and the ‘mysteries’ that still abound about what really happened that day is mostly accurate.

                      In other words… McDonough HAS been paying attention to ( as he himself might say ) what ‘others’ still refer to as “conspiracy theories”.

                      In that regard… he just proved he’s a pretty well-informed “conspiracy theorist” himself ( and he believes many of the ‘theories’ that are still on the table ).

                      What fascinates me about his latest spew is what appears to be NEW INFORMATION that is only now coming out…

                      …such as his claim now that the reason GM stopped building line after just 100 yards is because they DECIDED to ‘stop’ because neither their acting Sup ( Steed ) or their in-field Division Supervisor ( Marsh ) could arrange for ( specifically ) ‘Helicopter Support’ out there where they were building line.

                      I am still checking all the available testimony and records ( including Brendan’s )… but so far there is absolutely NO EVIDENCE to back up this ‘new’ claim being made by McDonough.

                      On the contrary… in some of McDonough’s own statements in his own ( TWO ) interviews with ADOSH investigators… it is Brendan himself who makes several references to the ‘Helicopters’ that WERE ‘out there’ making drops near where GM was building line.

                      But let’s say this NEW information from Brendan about GM actually DECIDING to ‘stop building line’ circa 1:30 PM ( which is when they reached their farthest poiint, had lunch there, and decided to go no further ) is actually TRUE.

                      That begs the NEW question…

                      “If they DECIDED to stop building any line or making any progress on their assignment as early as 1:30 PM that day ( for whatever the real reason turns out to be )…. then why the fuck didn’t they just COME DOWN?

                      It was Air Attack ‘Bravo 3’ ( Warbis and Lenmark ) who thought ( circa that same 1:30 PM timeframe ) that GM was ( by then ) ‘out of the game’ and just ‘staged’ out there doing nothing and ‘waiting for a new assignment’.

                      And it was Air Attack Rory Collins who testified… (quote) “They had plenty of time to make it back to their buggies that afternoon”.

                      The ‘timeframe’ between 12:30 PM ( when Brian Frisby and Trueheart Brown left that first face-to-face meeting with Marsh and Steed out on the ridge ) and 4:00 PM ( when they finally DID ‘abandon their assignment’ and leave the safe black ) has really never been fully ‘investigated’ at all.

                      There are almost FOUR HOURS there where very little is known about what Granite Mountain and/or Division Alpha Eric Marsh were actually DOING ‘out there’.

                      If they DECIDED to ‘stop working’ as early as 1:30 PM… then what were they doing for the next several HOURS.

                      Just ‘sandbagging’ it and making overtime and waiting for ‘end of shift’?

                      If they KNEW ( as early as 1:30 PM, now, according to Brendan McDonough ) that they weren’t even going to TRY and make any progress with their ‘assignment’ from that morning… then why didn’t they COME DOWN?

                      More later.

                    • Robert the Second says


                      You posted: “… If they DECIDED to ‘stop working’ as early as 1:30 PM… then what were they doing for the next several HOURS.”

                      Revisiting two of the other classic “lunch spot” fires – 1994 South Canyon Fire (CO) and the 2002 30-Mile Fire (WA), may give at least some explanation of WHY fatalities occurred on these fires. I contend that it was as if time stood still for them, as if they were in some kind of suspended animation or stupor.

                      Regarding the YH Fire, what the hikers Sonny “Tex” Gilligan and Joy Collura observed early that morning is insightful. (“What I saw was a group of men [who] were totally spent. They looked like they were tired. They weren’t somebody you would want to fight a fire,” Gilligan says. “They needed rest.” ). As you ell know, conclusions drawn from the GMHS Toxicology Reports .embedded within the Autopsy Reports. provides good insight as to the GMHS condition that morning and by extension, that day.

                      In addition, there was the ongoing “discussing our options” GMHS Crew Net radio conversation heard by anyone within range that was privy to anyone that was in range and had the GMHS Crew net frequency.

                      During this time, it was fairly evident that there was a bit of a power struggle between DIVS A Marsh and GMHS Acting Supt. Steed.


                      According to the above article: “In the radio call, Marsh told Steed to leave the “black,” which was safe, and join him at the ranch. Steed protested, saying such a move would be dangerous. The radio exchange turned into a dispute.”

                      “”My understanding of the argument between Eric Marsh and Jesse Steed … was that Steed did not want to go down,” Paladini said.”

                      “According to Paladini’s account, Steed objected until Marsh gave him a direct order to descend.”

                      “As the back-and-forth conversation continued, it became apparent that Steed, a U.S. Marine veteran, consented to the command to relocate the team. But he told Marsh he thought it was a bad idea.”

                      “During one of the final radio transmissions, according to the account, Steed told Marsh the crew was not going to make it.”

                      I allege that Steed, using Mitigated Speech, in deference to authority based on his Marine Corps training and experience, conceded to Marsh’s unsafe command and decision and took his men off the hill. And the GMHS influenced by Groupthink all followed him to their deaths.

                      The Mitigated Speech issue is classic, derived from Human Factors researcher Malcolm Gladwell in ‘Outliers.’

                      “Mitigated Speech: The chapter “The Ethnic Theory of Plane Crashes” describes the central role mitigated speech (the ways in which we soften the meaning of what we’re saying…for example, when your boss says, “We should probably rewrite this report,” it’s mitigated speech meaning, “Rewrite this report, now”) plays in cockpit conversations just before a plane crashes. Gladwell reviews transcripts from black box recordings to show how mitigated speech gets in the way of the clear and direct communication that needs to happen in desperate situations.”

                      Regarding making decisions under distractions and stress, “John Hopkins University researchers found, “By narrowing attention, … attention shifts from vision to audition caused increased activity in auditory cortex and decreased activity in visual cortex and vice versa, reflecting the effects of attention on sensory representations.” The experiment was designed to create tunnel vision, but a completely unexpected event occurred. While vision was being tunneled, performance of the audible control center decreased” [17]. The researchers further found that tunneled vision leads to diminished hearing. Tunneled hearing led to diminished vision. The researchers concluded that a person intently listening to audible cues, like a radio or cell phone, could have diminished visual performance. In some cases, when the stress is severe enough, the hearing receptors in the brain may shut off completely, referred to as auditory exclusion [17]. This clearly relates to wildland firefighting.”

                      “Thus, the GMHS would primarily “see” the weather and fire behavior that they were focused on, however, their own brains may have sabotaged or delayed their ability to perceive and react to threats from those recognized hazards or even from the focus they were directing their attention to, typical of all humans engaged in this type of encounter. Numerous cell phone and radio conversations occurred during the YH Fire, likely distracting them from truly ‘seeing’ the emerging weather and fire behavior hazards and reevaluating priorities contributing to their steady drift into failure. The firefighters were aware of the forecast weather that morning; the risk factor was high enough to make them think twice, but they deferred to their own judgment, unknowingly falling victim to distractions. The weather forecast warned of considerable thunderstorm outflow wind danger, but the GMHS seemingly discounted those warnings, and left their Safety Zone at the worst possible time. Arizona is well known for its dynamic, sometimes tragic large fires; late June is considered extremely hazardous, i.e. the Dude Fire (1990) when 6 WFF died, where severe outflow winds also set the stage for potential deathtraps, and where harsh Human Failure also won out.”

                      Source: Epic Human Failure on June 30, 2013 – 8th International AHFE Conference

      • Joy A Collura says

        and you know what as well Donut…

        some called me up bewildered by you recently standing with God on your public figure facebook page…I had to print it before it was edited out.

        yet you know even there is an area of the movie that is not facts yet you do not have the courage to even tell the director—

        that’s a mislead to the world.

        you just allow it to be labelled “that’s Hollywood”…looks cool.

        When you get a hospital bill as hefty as I did and been paying it since 2009 slowly…you will know all too well the aftermath of the wild and how it affects ya…
        your body and your pocket…I was really disturbed you would allow that to happen in the film but hell who am I…


        I will continue to be nobody as I continue to sharpen my skills and keep training to be able to utilize the sources of information and subsequent an analysis that is pure and real and raw.

        I am still ashamed Cordes ever took any accolades in reference to YHF.

        I know Tarr and True had a very tough spot on that 6.30.13 yet what a shame as they go to any other fire after YHF and look out on mountain tops and do they even connect the dots…what;s really happening…

        all these hotshots who brotherhood the data that Marsh was at the ranch—are you relying that information based on the EMDL? there is no actual proof that exists just voices chattering thru the brotherhood…some article out with no actual tangible source in article…yet the only thing I ever saw was a widow shared her husband went back…back from??? so really there is no source…that is like me talking about incidents within an incident within an incident….do you know one incident you could not even get it from any autopsies results…I would love for one day to go over with both True and Tarr in person the data I have and they share a few answers to my questions- just a few.

        Marsh’s final hours have not been pushed forward and when it does I know alot will have to let go of the pre-judgement and knock off the bullshit narratives,,,,

        it’s a bullshit.

        How many brotherhood doors closed 6.30.13? how many bought into the narratives?

        I would think it has to be TERRIBLE to learn and teach young men and women today…to improve and be better when people in the industry hide and omit because you are worried of some damn lawsuit….before this is all over…karma will happen.

        I know RTS…live and breathe the 10 and 18 and LCES yet this a separate section-
        let me dragon breath it out-

        I bet there is many in leadership positions who can’t wait to get out of the business…when you use to love it. It’s a joke people.

        RTS…the lies lay in areas within the industry and sure Donut lacks the comprehension he should of spoke up 6.30.13 or soon after even it was to time stamp a personal video to self BEFORE everyone got in his ears with ideologies and bullshit…or on correcting the wrong(s) on the movie about him.

        Tell me what is there to be proud of if you are a current leader in the industry- if you work in an industry with management who seem to have hard time being true and honest?? You have fine men who perish yet they only look at the fact of the men Steed and Marsh and their decisions yet let’s be blinded to the big picture here people….

        Wildland Firefighting. Structural Firefighting…Hybrids…CalFire…etc and what the hell are white trucks with logos reading fire remediation doing on the fire lines during an active fire not the aftermath? wtf?

        How long do we have to live in agony before one of you finally get a set— and speak up?

        Actually it does not matter how enormous they are…don’t matter the power you have…if you were ON the YHF and you actually would rather me a NOBODY to share…vs YOU????

        Shit, now due to some of the loved ones (and I say some)…we get a super-fantastic bitchin’ HOTSHOT movie coming out that will serve to seduce multitudes of young men and women into donning greens and yellows in quest for glory… with NO TRUTHS of the real dangers of man’s hubris against natural force of wildfire…More will die.

        More parents and widows and lonely lost children heartbroken-

        can we finally make a change?

        I changed today. I did take a risk. I had a spark happen that took my dusty bible and made my life pretty darn rusty…I assessed the risks too. I THOUGHT it out but in the end…on the line I was another person entirely- or was I? Did I emancipate earlier…
        it felt liberating—felt like a life long new path—and well it really feels terrific!

        Anyways- enough rambling…just speak up…the money train you got rolling is a train wreck in the waiting…

        thank you for today sir-
        learned alot about life and about risks.

        • Joy A Collura says

          I ask the director right here right now what healing can come from your end of the movie…you want to honor the 19 then you do not end a movie in tragedy but give the world 🌎 and the men a better ending and my photo best represents because it shows the men coming Home…ending your movie in tragedy is yet another tragedy…I hope you add in more photos or footage of the men coming home…that is the right thing to do especially when this movie plans to profit and probably gain accolades too.

          Fred and Provencio- take in person time to visit me and we may have to meet near Montana to go to the core but I think its time you knew an area maybe you are or are not yet familiar with…sorry for the recent Montana death of a f2f…prayers to the families…

          • Joy A Collura says

            Do you think that marsh was not at the BSR but possibly behind the men in an effort to push them forward?

            Due to the sensitivity of the matter- for you I can share off here the documents of not what I feel but what is known- I will not answer that question public until I have 4 more interviews to make the proper assessment versus others perceptions- sound good. Not all the data is in to properly make that assessment on or off line. That was why I was floored others have spoken that he was at the ranch-

      • Joy A Collura says

        Our lives don’t matter

        Its what be leave behind

        reason I do not belong to anything and have no problem being a nobody-

        Its not to ourselves

        But the future we give Glory

        so yes you “edited” Donut- got that- well noted but if you say it right first time around no need to edit is my thinking…no need to go back and shift and omit words…there is no audience really in this life…but all we can do is take the risks…I did yesterday with well thought I would second guess my decision after and I had not—I really can see the whole picture why and how and left thinking…hmmm…wow…alrighty then…

        I know the Doce fire from all the interviews and foias I personally have done and could you tell the world on your facebook page that rattlesnake moment…it would be great to hear about it…I would really love to know because as the desert walker I am always running into them here in the Rattler capital in Congress…Sonny has had an abundance on his property this Summer and just today his dog “Lucky” saved Sonny’s life with his special bark as a mojave almost got him…so it is a good topic for you to share on…how did it feel and what came of it?

  6. WantsToKnowTheTruth says

    Reply to Gary Olson post on July 25, 2017 at 9:24 am

    >> Gary Olson said…
    >> And I think without trying to, the movie trailer actually captures
    >> the underlying and in my opinion, the primary reason the crew died.
    >> They were trying to take the fuckin’ fire head on and save “a” town,
    >> as opposed to what my old friends Bob and his brother Bob would have
    >> done. Fold our gloves in half for a cushion on our hardhats that we
    >> are using as a pillow and kick back and watch Mother Nature’s grand show.

    You may be exactly right.

    Especially about the “without trying” part.

    Everyone involved with making this “fillum” might THINK they have cranked out some kind of “Tribute to Hotshots” film, but in the end ( after the credits roll ) a lot of people who don’t even know anything about what REALLY happened in Yarnell might be leaving the theaters shaking their heads and saying to themselves…

    “What a bunch of dumbshit yahoos”.

    If they really have taken the “let’s take the fire head-on with nothing but hand tools” crap too far… I hope the actual WFC ( Wildland Firefighting Community ) as a whole officialy REJECTS this “fillum”.

    >> Gary Olson also said…
    >> Oh… and one more thing. I really agree with WTKTT that the movie title
    >> really sucks. How about we start a contest to see who can come up
    >> with the best title.

    I think it’s too late for that.

    I just saw the new movie “Dunkirk” and this recently released “Only the Brave” fillum trailer, complete with Josh Brolin ( Eric Marsh ) talking to some cloud of smoke and asking “You wanna PIECE of me????”, was actually shown on the ‘big screen’ just before the main feature ( Dunkirk ) started.

    So I guess that YouTube release of the trailer wasn’t just some kind of ‘test flight’ for the “Only the Brave” title choice, to see what a an initial public ‘reaction’ might be.

    I guess they really are “going with it”.

    It would be highly unusual for any Studio to change the name of a film AFTER they have already started showing the ‘official trailer’ in the actual movie theaters.

    That’s too bad.

    I still think it’s a VERY poor choice.

    There was nothing wrong with calling the film “Granite Mountain”, as they decided to do after rejecting the FIRST title of “No Exit”.

    It’s a shame the people involved didn’t have the backbone to just go with their original already thought-out choice of “Granite Mountain”.

    That IS what the film is about… and if someone was going to make this ‘tribute’ movie about this crew… then the ‘crew’ deserved not to have it end up with a title that becomes just a ‘footnote’ about it being the FOURTH TIME that title has been ‘reused’.

    That’s right… the FOURTH time ( not just the THIRD time ).

    Turns out there was yet ANOTHER movie named “Only The Brave” released in 1930, and it starred Gary Cooper… and the ‘footnotes’ about this title being ‘reused’ yet again are already online at public sites like Wikipedia.

    So the 1994 “Only the Brave” movie that was about the PYROMANIAC who ends up forcing her friends and family to watch her burn herself to death wasn’t the FIRST use of this “Only the Brave” thing. It was the SECOND ‘reboot’ of that movie title.

    Here is the Wikipedia page already ‘updated’ with ‘footnotes’ that this 2017 movie entitled “Only the Brave” is the FOURTH TIME that title has been used for a ‘fillum’…

    And here is the IMDB page for the 1930 “Only the Brave” movie starring Gary Cooper, Mary Brian and Phillips Holmes.

    ** “Only The Brave” – 1930

    The film is about a Union Army captain who travels into Confederate territory as a spy with false dispatches hoping to mislead the Confederate forces. His mission is complicated when he falls in love with a southern woman who comes to his aid.

    So that means TWO of the FOUR movies named “Only the Brave” are ‘war movies’… and it;s just the OTHER TWO that are BOTH about people burning to death.

  7. Gary Olson says

    I agree with WTKTT and Joy that the scenes from the trailer that include the people running down the street, the crew standing in front of the Alligator Juniper and the radio transmission from Marsh saying they are going to meet the fire head on and save their town are probably from either the Doce Fire 0r a reasonable facsimile.

    Which is what I thought when I wrote my insightful review of said trailer. However, I was trying not to get down into the weeds…but WTF, we have come this far. So….

    I am going to bring out two theories that have been put forward on this thread over the past few YEARS (and Sonny is still with us….Praise the Lord and pass the ammunition). The first theory is courtesy of Robert the Second otherwise known as Bob and states that Marsh had a history of piss poor prior bad decisions with good outcomes, so he got in the habit of sucking eggs (this homespun analogy refers to farm dogs who get in the bad habit of suckin’ eggs laid by the chickens and therefore they are egg suckin’ dogs). I think we can all agree that usually the more people get away with pushing the envelope, the more they keep doing it…until they finally cross the line. So…I think even though the radio transmission in the trailer isn’t associated with the Yarnell Hill Fire…the attitude very much is. And it took the Yarnell Hill Fire to break Marsh of suckin’ eggs…in a very final way at the cost of the lives of his crew.

    The second theory is an amalgamation of several contributors, I think…but I have lost track. And this theory states that since Marsh and his crew had such good luck being the heroes of Prescott for saving the old juniper tree and they got really great press from the Doce Fire in general, it was not only intoxicating, in the end it proved to be deadly.

    And this was because they were under the gun from the pencil neck geeks MF’s who were fiddling with the City of Prescott’s budget shortfall who were looking to ax the crew because they could not submit enough falsifies expense vouchers and reimbursable invoices to make the crew “revenue neutral”,

    Therefore, they were looking to cut the Wildlands Fire Division entirely and that stupid fuck Willis had put Marsh on notice that all of their jobs were on the line. So…I think Marsh pulled out all of the stops and all of these factors in addition to the chip on shoulder and his insatiable ego made him overrule Captain Steed three (3) times and order his crew to their deaths in an attempt to at least “look good” while trying to save the shit hole (sorry about that, I guess I am still a little bitter…and angry) known as Yarneli in order to generate some bitchin’ press and save their jobs.

    And I think without trying to, the movie trailer actually captures the underlying and in my opinion, the primary reason the crew died. They were trying to take the fuckin’ fire head on and save “a” town, as opposed to what my old friends Bob and his brother Bob would have done. Fold our gloves in half for a cushion on our hardhats that we are using as a pillow and kick back and watch Mother Nature’s grand show.

    Which in this particular case, was a firestorm of Biblical proportions while the BTU’s stored in that collection of sheet rock and plywood and other miscellaneous energy stored in the fuel bed of trees with doors and windows known as Yarnell was released by the Yarnell Hill Fire. Although once the firestorm passed, I would have moved in with my crew to help clean up the mess and look for survivors. I’m not callous…I’m just pragmatic. So…

    • Gary Olson says

      Oh…and one more thing. I really agree with WTKTT that the movie title really sucks. How about we start a contest to see who can come up with the best title. After all…we all want the movie to do well don’t we? This movie is going to celebrate the well spent lives of the hotshots who toiled for decades in obscurity in the shadow of the candy ass smoke jumpers. The hotshots….the best of the best who are the real heroes of the big campaign or “project” fires.

      So…here are my picks;

      “Descent Into Hell”

      “Into the Valley of Death”

      “Firestorm From Hell” or just “Firestorm” if you are into the whole brevity thing (“The Big Lebowski”)

      “Fire On The Mountain”


      “Oh Shit…Oh Dear!”

      “Fuck Me Silly & Call Me Sally”

      And my personal favorite, “WTF…OVER!”

      • Gary Olson says

        Okay….I have really enjoyed the quality time I have spent with you over the past few days, but the gentle breeze passing over the red rocks of Moab is whispering my name…I must go.

        And btw…it is going to hotter than hell down there…so wish me luck. Never mind, I don’t need luck…cause I am so damn good (Yep…still got it, I can talk the talk even if I can’t walk the walk). Ciao!

          • Joy A Collura says

            in much reality…the movie is not going to be about the mistakes or errors or missing data

            as much as it will be about these men who were “differently” connected to the fire industry in a whole

            and about their living lives…in all I know on the movie so far it really has been kept to show a piece of the industry and these 19-

            and how at one time no one really even knew who they were until the saving of an alligator tree on the Doce fire which made news-

            and they were the men to family and friends and community (closely knit)

            but not the world

            and not like it happened…

            and I think that has been hard to share a loss so grand to the world for them….

            so we all here have to comprehend the tone we get for being here for trying to make sense and bring forth the facts and documents…or frustrations and opinions-

            and yet I do not think the people reading us here on IM really comprehend we are human and get frustrated at times especially some of us who have data awaiting for the right ones to speak up…

            I try to do the men right especially when one of them put in my head long ago…July 2013 that mind set to do what is right—

            and I guess that is why it always goes back to me wondering if one even thinks like that—-“how would you like someone to do that to you?”

            yet we all grieve differently and as much as RTS you want to bring forth the word LIES

            …this is a kid…

            a kid who immediately had the world in his ears whispering then a book deal then a movie deal and he had his own stuff he was dealing with before the fire events

            so I hope he does not take the world wanting answers as feeling beaten down because I have met alot of the loved ones RTS who do not feel like some of us but Donut did publicly say what he said on facebook so its natural for us to reply….

            and the loved ones want to remember their living lives not them dying or how or why…it’s just too hard- especially when the world and us KEEP on talking and writing about it.

            imagine being the family to one of the men as you are draped over the aftermath of that loved one when all along their Spirit was cloaked over the person tightly holding them saying we were all brothers…we are ok now…we all remained…we died warrior angels and forever they the loved ones are still here until God’s time of our time here…you almost feel a pull to Above because the pain is so much—

            so the movie title because of their huge warm hearts should be called “warrior angels” for I know they help many of us carry on….vs FUBAR

            Their lives want to be remembered that too much is put on Donut when in reality they all knew Donut differently than one another….there is an area as Donut spoke that can offer more…without Donut ever having to be the one and those folks are not kids but “grown ass” men and they should speak up…

            and not one man in any meditation has come across that Donut is the answer but he could clear some areas up…and none feel bad for the choices he is making to life…none.

            If anything I see warmth and big hearts- some frustrated yet it cores to the city folks so I tried doing my foias to gain clarity there so either I am not getting all the data from the city but there is frustration with areas tied to the city—- there is more to this story beyond anything Donut can offer RTS— he is just a young kid…. now surrounded by people who have labelled this site as a distasteful place to engage—

            and people who want to name us haters for we write out our thought process vs giving nice organized views and thoughts and essays-
            except AI (wwtktt)…

            this is real time and real people here and so as much as I want to know more to what I eye witnessed we have to give Donut the space and time and maybe one day he will share…but yes he does have more data…his book and facebook is not THE END…

            I will not tell you how to write because I am the last one to do that who never forms ONE sentence but I just want you to know we do not have to support the man who speaks not but we can pray he one day is able to share more and more…

            In 2015 I had something really great happen but it just paused as fast as it happened….
            yet I always go back to my favorite poem…because it is so true
            no matter if one lives by choice or not I see them because they are always with me…my love has no time or space…just continues on forever…
            and I will never ever stop and I will keep listening and looking and remembering long after the days are gone…these men deserve the truths to be known…that is what I will always do…always…

            This 2017 I have been shifting out areas that have done my health no good- In it I am more aware

            Not aware ENOUGH yet since I still keep DOT DOT DOT and not yet one real sentence and it about drives me batty as it would another “trying” to read it or make sense…

            but I get what you meant RTS just wondering how can we do better…because he ain’t the answer—-

            • Robert the Second says

              Joy, thanks for the heartfelt diatribe.

              You posted: “… too much is put on Donut when in reality they all knew Donut differently than one another”

              McDonough heaped all this upon himself, he made that choice.

              I agree, he is not the answer, however, he has a lot of the answers.

              • Joy A Collura says

                I had to go google the word diatribe…

                as you might of seen over time…I am not the “brightest” kid….

                (di·a·tribe ˈdīəˌtrīb/ noun
                a forceful and bitter verbal attack against someone or something.)

                I am not at all being attacking towards you nor bitter but when you said lies…I had to meditate on it and I was sharing maybe there is a better way to reach Donut….he is just a kid and he had concerns before the fire so that was why… I too get frustrated and feel like “come on Donut..”

                I deeply apologize if I came off like that especially to you because I have the deepest respect for you the person and you in the industry

                ( I AM SORRY ) –

                I had got a call and you actually know the person I got the call from…and in that call they explained the fact is Donut is a young kid….

                Yes, McDonough heaped all this upon himself, he made that choice and he is living through it— in his way—his know how—-

                I too agree, he is not the answer, however, he has a lot of the answers. YEP!

                again I am sorry and thank you for getting me to google…I would of never guessed that as the definition…

                • Robert the Second says

                  Joy, you’re fine, I did not take it personal. And surely you noticed I prefaced it with HEARTFELT so as to soften it for you a bit.

                  You would HAVE finally figured out what it meant.

                  One of the main things that irritates me is how McDonough is outright ling and then using the name of Almighty God in his Facebook posts to justify his behavior.

                  I believe they call that blaspheme.

                  • Joy A Collura says

                    RTS said “One of the main things that irritates me is how McDonough is outright ling and then using the name of Almighty God in his Facebook posts to justify his behavior.”

                    I believe they call that blaspheme.

                    Joy replied:

                    Actually there is a few in the past week who called me or spoke to me in person who feel the same way who know the kid—-so yes, agreed.
                    It really makes them upset.
                    I just told them he is just a kid and they told me come on Joy…you can carry that so long…someone has to let him know…

              • Joy A Collura says

                my husband called and he said you more than likely meant “running on or rambling…as I tend to…without really getting to any point” because the word has a few meanings…well either way I wish Donut will share…

                HERE IS LOCALS NEWS:

                Mon, Jul 31, 2017 at 5:40 PM

                Yarnell Hill Fire Memorial Park®
                UPDATE – July 28, 2017
                To our neighbors, local businesses and visitors: these updates will be provided as
                regularly as possible to keep you in the loop about Progress in the Park.
                1. The County inspected and approved the first 8 feet of block and rebar on
                July 24.
                2. The grout in the first 8 feet of block has been poured.
                3. The forms on the first 8 feet of block have been removed except around the
                two door frames.
                COMING UP:
                1. Attach the waterproofing membrane.
                2. Remove the barricade supporting the dirt on the East side of the building.
                3. Backfill the North, East, and South sides with pea gravel.
                4. Install 2 more rows of block.
                5. Have County inspect last 2 rows of block installed.
                6. Welding work on Observation Deck header.
                7. Install “J” bolts for floor joists.
                8. Install floor joists, flooring and then waterproof it.
                The Park Updates are distributed via email to the distribution lists of Leah
                Tidey and Denise Roggio, plus all Bard Members of the weaver Mountains
                Chamber of Commerce. It is also posted on Bulletin Boards in Yarnell, Glen
                Ilah and Peeples Valley.
                If you have questions about the Yarnell Hill Fire Memorial Park, or have skills,
                ideas, time, energy or money to contribute – in small or large amounts – we’d
                love to hear from you! PLEASE CONTACT
                Memorial Committee Chair: Gerald Montgomery
       or 480-694-9767,
                Volunteer Coordinator: Linda Ma –
       or 415-823-3131
                Memorial Committee Members (in addition to the above members: Jack Rauh
                (Construction Manager), Lew and Marcie Theokas, Julia Dockery, Chuck Tidey
                (YHRG Board Liaison), Frances Lechner

                • Joy A Collura says

                  There is one FOIA of many that I always felt was odd I never got…but I did get this reply:

                  Tue, Nov 1, 2016 at 5:05 PM

                  After review, our attorney has advised that our FOIA fee policy is in conflict with State Statute i.e. there is no differentiation between commercial and non-commercial. We apologize for the mix-up and will be sending you the documents we have responsive to your request at no cost as this was our error. I have asked staff to include the mailing in tomorrows – Wednesdays – mail. As a side note, our policy is being re-written to mirror statute as I type this email.

                  We will levy fees for future requests in accordance with the State.

                  My sincerest apologies for our mistake.
                  but never did hear or get anything about THE MAN who was on fire who I feel is ONE of the GROWN MEN who could tell much more than Donut…never did get that data yet…

                  I also thought about Donut and his age and I thought so why not include the others who were grown ups there….because I do not think he can offer the same clarity as some and my hopes is MacLean’s book touches base on that topic….

                  Diane Lomas, since being online what can you tell me about what you have learned so far from the missing data on aerial and how would you explain who Cordes and Abel are to me and what was their roles on the afternoon of YHF?

                  RTS is correct in his consistent claim of responsibility of GMHS yet it’s way more complicated than just that. It really is…

    • Charlie says

      Good to hear Gary Olson again. As for the title,of the movie it would be well served named HOW THE BOSSES CAN KILL A WILDLAND FIRE CREW.

      • Charlie says

        Gary is spot on like usual but nobody cares to hear the truth. If you do not believe it than watch the trailer comments by Sony official trailer on YouTube and how they delete what they want. The cookie cutter honcho lover crowd exists. Brown noser crowd. I don’t want to watch the trailer. The title was enough for me. You can’t fix stupid. Obviously there were some heroes and some bone headed negligent and careless bosses. Death of all those young men should not have been taken so lightly. Those who caused the deaths should be expelled and punished.

    • says

      It has been stated that after Granite Mountain went into their shelters there was no further communication from them other than a keyed mic noise —-was this due to the lack of ability to use radios while in the shelters or something else?

      • rocksteady says

        It was alleged that the shelters caused interference, that they may have been trying to transmit but the shelters just caused static..

      • Joy A Collura says

        I have ocean front property here in Arizona Diane
        . you really think the story is told yet on Yarnell hill fire

        and do you or anyone believe the movie is going to be the true story as Josh Brolin has it on his Instagram?


        It would take the collaboration of togetherness and in this tragedy all we saw all around was division…

        shit..a man who use to eat with one of the loved ones just kinda vanished after the fire from the forefront in their lives they were grieving a terrible loss and another who was like a son just stops all communications and visits…because you were on the fire…

        that man I hope since the fire FINALLY healed and grew close again with the family.

        But no … No way can there EVER be a TRUE story unless the loved ones met with everyone and told the story by fact based information not withholding…so this new movie you bet come Oct 22 I will be sharing scene by scene my humble opinions because I do have the foias…and the interviews and I was there for that fire like it or not…

        and I know one day RTS will have to say I stand corrected on a topic…and a few others..

        the stuff that happens is happening but slowly and justly and rightly behind the scenes and I am not gonna screw it up by saying I got the answer and say it public…

        A lot of sweat and alot of choked up tears and years to screw it up because some elementary folks say show me your…
        Even as a young lady and the world knows I never did.

        I got news…but NOT A DAY goes by that either I or the others are not ON THIS…

        The truth Josh Brolin will remain and prevail but not in any made for profit books or movies….but by making the right moves quietly….

        in the end you took part in a movie to honor and memorialize the GMHS and that industry and share perceptions of others…of their truth as they saw it…

        you quickly jumped on the band wagon last summer to bash John Dougherty. That shows me where your character in life lays. Instead of researching it out.

        There is a lot of us me included that never even saw those first articles placed out by John Dougherty until others like you pointed it out. I came around with John right a week before Fall 2013 so when I read it I thought what the fudge…the graphics…the story…whoah…but had he not taken that risk there would be no story…had we not been on that hill ensuring the public of that WHO KNOWS what narrative would of been given…

    • Robert the Second says

      Gary posted: “Fold our gloves in half for a cushion on our hardhats that we
      >> are using as a pillow and kick back and watch Mother Nature’s grand show.”

      We called it Letting the Big Dog Eat, You let the fire do it’s thing and THEN you go in and safely engage and pick up the pieces.

  8. WantsToKnowTheTruth says


    Regarding this recently released “fillum” trailer…

    Where to start?

    Oh… I know… regardless of all the hot runny bullshit that is ‘previewed’ in this trailer… how about starting with the ( new ) TITLE for this “fillum”.

    This will mark the THIRD TIME a major motion picture has been called “Only The Brave”.

    It’s obvious that this ‘name change’ has something to do with the “musical distributors” that has been going on with original producers BlackLabel media throwing “Lionsgate” under the bus and then working a deal with Sony pictures instead ( and now, somehow, Columbia Pictures has jumped into the fray as well )…

    Lionsgate were the ones who distributed the previous other two “ain’t it a shame” movies that BlackLabel media has produced recently… which have BOTH almost “lost them their shirts” and have BOTH only barely ‘broken even’.

    I’m talking about the BP Oil Spill disaster movie and the Boston Marathon movie.

    BOTH of them just barely broke even… and investors treat “breaking even” as bad as LOSING money.

    Investors NEVER want to just “break even”. They want to MAKE MONEY.

    So for this THIRD “ain’t it a shame” movie coming out of BlackLabel productions… they obviously decided that Lionsgate wasn’t up to the job and so that’s when they dumped them and “shopped it around” to someone who might help them MAKE MONEY and not just BREAK EVEN again.

    Enter “Sony Pictures” ( and Columbia Pictures ).

    So somewhere in there someone decided that releasing a movie titled simply “Granite Mountain” was going to be the “kiss of death” at the box office and it needed something ‘better’.

    That’s fine. That’s their job. Find a way to get more people to go to the movie.

    That’s why they make the “big bucks”.

    But to pull the “Let’s make money” wagon up to the title “Only The Brave”… when there have already been TWO other movies with that same title?


    And it’s not even the SECOND movie called “Only The Brave” that is the problem.

    The SECOND one was the one about the Japanese-American Soldiers who wanted to fight for their country. That IMBD page is here…

    ** 2006 movie “Only The Brave”
    ** IMDB page..

    It’s the FIRST “Only The Brave” movie that turns out to be really CREEPY here.

    The FIRST major motion picture to have the name “Only The Brave” was released in 1994, and here is what it was actually ABOUT…

    Drumroll, please… and hang on to your collective hat(s)…

    The FIRST movie named “Only The Brave” was about a girl growing up in a troubled household who finds meaning in her life by becoming a PYROMANIAC.

    She is setting shit on fire the whole move… and the climax is when she forces her friends and family to watch her set herself on fire and burn herself to death.

    I shit you not.

    Here is the IMBD page for that FIRST movie to be named “Only The Brave”…

    ** 1994 “Only The Brave”
    ** IMDB page…

    A part of me is ready to believe that instead of this new third-time-around name choice of “Only The Brave” for this Granite Mountain Tribute film just being a total fuck-up on the part of some highly paid person sitting in a cubicle at Sony Pictures… that it might have actually been some kind of sick, cruel JOKE

    The Granite Mountain Hotshots ( and their memory ) deserve better than this.

    If they go ahead and RELEASE this movie under that “Only The Brave” title… then it will be forever tainted with footnotes about it being the THIRD go-around… and the fact that someone apparently didn’t even know how to use Google.

    More ( about this stupid “fillum” trailer ) later.

    • WantsToKnowTheTruth says


      Here is a direct link to the official IMDB SUMMARY page for the very first motion picture to bear the title “Only The Brave”

      Alex is in love with her best friend, Vicki, her mother has disappeared and she SETS FIRE TO THINGS in her spare time. Vicki comes from an abusive home and wants Alex to run away with her. Alex is a bit of a nerd and a teachers pet, so takes advantage of this by trying to seduce her drippy school teacher. Alex watches as Vicki, unable to escape her terrible home-life and an psychological wreck, sets alight to herself and BURNS TO DEATH

      So you do have to wonder…

      Is it possible that someone at Sony Pictures who sits in a marketing cubicle making 6 figures really didn’t even know how to use Google?

  9. Joy A Collura says

    also I want to share when watching trailer…remember the Doce fire was in their town so when we see trailer…keep in mind they may not be showing the Yarnell situation but their town..the Doce fire…

    • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

      Reply to Joy A Collura post on July 23, 2017 at 12:18 am

      >> Joy A. Collura said…
      >> also I want to share when watching trailer…remember the Doce fire was in their
      >> town so when we see trailer…keep in mind they may not be showing the Yarnell
      >> situation but their town..the Doce fire…


      It’s just a ‘trailer” ( and only the first one, as well. Even ‘trailers’ CHANGE as time goes on ).

      There is a lot of “mystery meat” in any “fillum trailer”.

      The audio line about “We’re gonna take the fire head on and save our town” might be just some bullshit made-up radio transmission from the part of the movie that covers the Doce Fire, near Prescott, just BEFORE they burned to death at Yarnell.

      There also appears to be a scene in the trailer where ( apparently ) Christopher MacKenzie ( actor Taylor Kitsch? ) is physically DRAGGING actor Miles Teller ( Brendan McDonough ) out of some intense burnover situation.

      That could just be more happy-horseshit based on the TRUE story of how MacKenzie and McDonough almost burned THEMSELVES to death on the Doce Fire with their ill-planned and ill-executed manual burnout ( as documented in McDonough’s own book ).

  10. Gary Olson says

    Well…after all of our speculation over the past few months and even years about how the movie would approach their presentation of the Yarnell Hill Fire Disaster, it now appears to me from viewing the trailer (thanks for the link Joy) they actually got the primary and overwhelmingly most important question right. And that is “The Why.”

    As in…why did the Granite Mountain Interagency Hotshot Crew hike down into box canyon filled with highly explosive fuel that was a natural chimney in direct violation of almost every wildland firefighting hard and fast rule (the 10) and in addition to every guideline (the 18) and every common sense recommendation (the LCES) that have been painstakingly developed over 100 years at the cost of hundreds of lives?

    Which by the way, has impressed me a great deal…and I think I am pretty darn hard to impress at this point of my life when it comes to things I consider myself a subject matter expert on.

    So…the trailer both leads and concludes with the answer we have all been pontificating, speculating and questioning for several years now. Of course even the movie trailer doesn’t fill in all of the gaps in our complete understanding of how our unthinkable nightmare became our horrible reality within a few New York minutes, but it’s a very public start.

    The movie trailer for, “Only The Brave – The true story of the Granite Mountain Hotshots” begins with Josh Brolin, who is the actor playing Eric Marsh making a very forceful declarative statment in a radio transmission, “We’re going to take the fire head on and save our town.”

    Now of course there is a small measure of literary license utilized in this statement, they were in fact in the process of executing a maneuver in an attempt to get into position to take the fire head on to save “a” town (Yarnell) not “their” town (Prescott) but those are minor details.

    The salient point is this, the Granite Mountain Interagency Hotshot Crew were all burned alive (save one sad sack who got lucky…but it is often better to be lucky than good) because they were doing everything they could to take the fire head on to save a town.

    And taking wildfires head on is something that wildland firefighters who want to live long enough to grow old just don’t do…ever. According to my research, the Yarnell Hill Fire was generating somewhere north of 12,ooo British Termal Units (BTU’s) per foot, per second of released energy when it hit the crew.

    A hand crew…even a hotshot crew, can’t possibly take a fire head on that generating more than 100 BTU’s per foot, per second of fire line intensity. That amounts to experiencing Mother Nature at one of her most fiercest moments. That is when wildland firefighters who don’t have death wishes back off, stand down and show some measure of respect for the grand spectacle God has created unfolding before their very eyes….and that was a firestorm of Biblical proportions.

    Other than that folks…it looks like it is going to be one bitchin’ movie and Josh Brolin (I mean…have you seen “No Country For Old Men”) and Jeff Bridges (I mean…have you seen “The Big Lebowski” – The Dude Abides) are two of my favorite actors.

    In addition to that…my stock has already gone up, now when I tell people I am a retired elite wildland firefighter…they don’t always say, “Oh…you must have been a smokejumper!” Fuck jumpers and the horses they rode in on, we have our own movie now. Hardly anyone who has even seen “Red Skies Over Montana” are still alive today anyway.

    Thanks Eric Marsh…I owe you brother!

    • Gary Olson says

      Well…I just re read my post and there are even more gramerical errors than I usually make, but I was just too DAM mad when I rote it to care. But….I’m sure you still managed to get my point, the FAMILIES, the Yavapai/Prescott Wildland Firefighting Cosa Nostra (Our Thing) and I finally agree on something. And that is the movie about the deaths of the Granite Mountain Hotshots looks like it is going to be pretty good, even if you discount the expected obligatory, theatrical, and usual Hollywood enhancements, God Bless America!

      The only thing from the trailer that really got to me was when Jeff Bridges (Who is he playing anyway? That stupid fuck Willis or that other Prescott Fire Department jerk off Steinbrink or whatever his name is? I hope to God it isn’t that stupid fuck Willis, just sayin….) says, “…SEAL Team 6 of firefighters…”, which as I have stated before, isn’t true. Hotshots are elite grunts and groundpounders, the best of the best, but they are still “conventional” forces
      that are often utilized in large numbers supported by even larger numbers of lesser crews. I don’t think Navy SEALS are used that way from watching the news.

      Hotshots are often used as the “Tip of the Spear” and are given the most demanding, challenging, and dangerous assignments where the highest degree of physical conditioning, training, discipline, and determination are required, but their specialty is fighting the “Big Ones” and leaving the little baby fires to the “non conventional” forces, which are the smokejumpers. And once the little baby fires start to grow into monsters, the jumpers pack up their chutes and high tail it back to their lofts to lick their wounds cause they got their candy asses kicked.

      So…I think hotshots should be compared to Marine infantry, if there is any appropriate military force comparison, because wildfires can’t think…or aim. Which is why we should win every time and there is no such thing as acceptable casualties. Everyone should go home every time (barring the occasional freak accident because wildland firefighting is an inherently dangerous job, but so is being a clerk in a convenience store as I have said before) except for ONE reason and ONE reason alone….human error.

      Well…I guess I do have a couple of other complaints about the movie trailer. How do you work a blaze “near Montana” anyway? Fight fire in Idaho, Wyoming, North Dakota, South Dakota or Canada? WTF…Over? And there was nothing preventing Granite Mountain from “setting foot” on the fire line just as hundreds of hand crews other than hotshot crews are doing today somewhere in the country and they did many times as Granite Mountain 7.

      The only reason Granite Mountain wanted the hotshot designation was to satisfy Eric Marsh’s insatiable ego and because he had. a giant chip on his shoulder and he wanted to prove the U.S. Forest Service wrong because they had shit canned him for drinking alcohol and smoking dope on the fire line when he was left in charge of the Globe Hotshots for a few shifts.

      Oh…and because that stupid fuck Willis and the Prescott Fire Department wanted to milk that federal cash cow dry to pad the City of Prescott’s budget by systematically falsifying their expenses and through bogus federal grants and reimbursements, but that is another story that wouldn’t make a very good fuckin’ movie.

      OK…OK…I’m going to stop this waste of my time even though I have a lot of time to waste. Let’s all just enjoy the movie and the furtherance of the Eric Marsh Legend. After all…18 men paid for it with their lives.

      I’m sorry…I got just one more., “as long as you can breathe, you can survive?” Well…I suspose that is true to a certain point. The crew was still breathing when their were coughing up chunks of their burned lungs so hard they disconnected their tongues from the backs of their mouths, so they were found with all of their tongues hanging out…so surely that statement is correct only to a certain point of no return…right? I mean…how much charred lung can a firefighter cough up and still survive?

      • Gary Olson says

        Okay…you’re right, that wasn’t fair to Marsh. I should have said “19 men paid for it with their lives.”

        And as I have stated before, if Marsh were here with me today, or I was with him, I would hug him and we would cry together…but only after I had slapped the bitch out of him.

      • says

        You have the ability to bring reality to the situation—men coughing so hard to expels burning material that their tongues were found out of their mouths.

        Their suffering was obvious and can’t be glazed over.

        I believe that Jeff Bridges played Duane Steinbrink.

        • Gary Olson says

          FYI – I didn’t write that originally, the doctors who performed the autopsies wrote it except they used bigger and more complicated words. I am just repeating it so we don’t forget.

          Back story…the official position on this thread as written by one very experienced and knowledgeable insider was that when wildland firefighters died from being burned over, they essentially sucked super heated gases into their lungs, which in turn made their lungs collapse and they died. We actually thought it wasn’t a great way to go, but we had convinced ourselves it was relatively painless all things considered and they really didn’t suffer all that much.

          I was like everybody else. I accepted that explanation at face value because I had never given it a lot of thought and I wanted to believe it as much as anyone else. What a crock of shit!

          I was then stunned and deeply dismayed when WTKTT explained to me exactly what the ME’s said in the autopsies and what it meant in plain English. And now I am doing penance for being so damn dumb and gullible to believe something so fucking stupid by reminding myself and everyone else every chance I get what those men went through so no one gets away with minimizing what happened to them and why it happened…not on my watch.

          They endured it, the least I can do is acknowledge what they endured. I don’t want anyone to go see that movie without knowing the truth if I can help it. I don’t want the deaths of the crew to be minimized or glorified in any way, I don’t want any current and future wildland firefighters to have any misunderstanding or misconception of what it might mean if they pull an Eric Marsh.

          I know from my 7 years as a hotshot crew boss just how much power and prestige goes with that title in the wildland firefighting world. And with great power and prestige comes great responsibility. We get to roll in it when it goes right and we get to own it when it goes wrong. That’s how it has to be or the system will collapse.

          • Gary Olson says

            Well…I guess I am not really part of the “we” and haven’t been for a long time. I should have said they (hotshot crew bosses) get to roll in it when things go right and have to own it when things go wrong.

            The high point in my life was as a THE hotshot crew boss on the Santa Fe National Forest and that is when I stopped developing as a person except for a very thin veneer I managed to maintain during my 18 years as a Supervisory Criminal Investigator, Senior Special Agent working for the BLM Washington D. C. Office of Law Enforcement and Security.

            And now in my golden years I have retreated to the happy place in my mind…as the Santa Fe Interagency Hotshot Crew Superintendent. It’s my story…I can tell it however I want to, nobody cares anyway and it makes me happy. : )

      • Joy A Collura says

        Gary said:
        Oh…and because that stupid fuck Willis and the Prescott Fire Department wanted to milk that federal cash cow dry to pad the City of Prescott’s budget by systematically falsifying their expenses and through bogus federal grants and reimbursements, but that is another story that wouldn’t make a very good fuckin’ movie.

        Joy said: it would make a great movie the city tie to them indeed…it was sad when chief Fraijo publicly talked about Prescott like he did yet highlighted Prescott Valley like a savior- that movie should be called the sins of omissions, Gary
        good to see you back. Sonny says hello. He was at er today— it’s a bullshit- the meds are a messed up world…

        • Gary Olson says

          Tell Sonny…”Howdy, good to hear you are still tickin”, Irish…take a lickin’ and keep on tickin”!”

          And thank you, but I’m not back…it’s not healthy for me and brings darkness into my Happy Place. Nothing has changed for me…I still got my ass kicked and couldn’t solve this case. I am just making a guest appearance to comment on the trailer…because, well, I don’t know why exactly?

            • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

              On July 22, 2017 at 11:47 pm, Joy A. Collura said…

              >> Old Irish saying…
              >> “Fiú i bás mheabhlaireacht minic”

              “Even in death there is ( often ) deception.”

    • Joy A Collura says

      gary said:
      every wildland firefighting hard and fast rule (the 10) and in addition to every guideline (the 18) and every common sense recommendation (the LCES) that have been painstakingly developed over 100 years at the cost of hundreds of lives?

      joy said: it is over a thousand…not hundreds…yet here we are…2017…and still it happens

      • Robert the Second says


        You posted: “joy said: it is over a thousand…not hundreds…”

        Thousands of what? Are you referring to Gary’s “at the cost of hundreds of lives” post?

        Are you saying that there have been over a thousand lives lost in wildland fires? If so, where do you get your numbers from?

        I’m pretty sure I’m gonna have to go along with Gary on the hundreds of lives. Although you may be correct if you are considering the global or international number of lives lost on wildland fires.

        • Joy A Collura says

          I am watching this global…

          Every life matters

          I’m out at the caves so next time I am home I will go get the sources of what I was trying to get across..

          Tomorrow I have procedure…so should be back on later in week.

              • Joy Collura says

                Funny.I just have to laugh. Just reading this and I just mentioned it (stand
                corrected) above earlier somewhere. I have been at Sonny’s scorpion black widow Brown
                Recluse rattlesnake farm…aka
                Place…seen them all today…He does not need security here…the caves and the desert are fun yet in cooler less muggier temps…
                He even has swarms of bees and
                flying ants here in a weird amount…must be mating season. Anything you fear in insects and wildlife Sonny loves them here…I head home soon. I was not trying to be harsh on Josh but he has to take it serious that even if I or Tex pass on we gave the data to proper folks to get this worked on RIGHT and with no bias

  11. rocksteady says

    My province (British Columbia) has been declared a state of emergency due to wildfires. Got about 200 on the go, many interface with evacs etc. Major cold front blew in last night and we lost a whole pile of containment that we had accomplished over the previous week..

        • Joy A Collura says

          don’t be confused—-

          there is a movie already called what they named it ONLY THE BRAVE:

          After being forced into internment camps during WWII, 1400 Japanese-American men successfully petitioned the government to serve during the war. Forming the 100th Infantry Battalion, these men went on to complete impossibly dangerous missions including the rescue of the 36th Division in Texas. Today, they are the most decorated unit of their size in American history. This is their story.
          Starz Media LLC
          Partner rating
          Release date

          • Robert the Second says

            Okay …. so how does your Japanese internment camp movie even remotely relate to this ridiculous and nauseating Hollywood sham titled Only the Brave?

            The YH Fire movie, allegedly “based on true events” is maybe how the GMHS really did fight wildlfires. Otherwise, it is a gross distortion, and travesty! It makes my skin crawl. Josh Brolin is a complete idiot. This is NOT how those that fight fires by the WFF Rules act. .

            Hollywood has now become part of the cover up that will seal the deal for all time about this horrific event.

            If the SW Regional Safety Officer doesn’t come out and completely dismiss this perpetration as total bovine feculence, then I guess we, as Safety Officers will be the only rogue mavericks out on the line trying to lookout for the young inexperienced ground pounders. No one else will.

            It reminds me of the 1998 Howie Long movie titled Firestorm.

            • Joy A Collura says

              RTS- how does the two relate- SAME MOVIE TITLE.
              Was wondering why they named it that…

              It is a director’s vision along with the guidance of the loved ones and people on the line that day and etc…

              and yes…safety officers are not shown the respect and appreciation as it cores down to just that—-
              SAFETY MATTERS!

              let us watch this film with a clean mind…yes Hollywood has glazed it even in the starting line…save our town…it was a town in their county but not their town…

            • Joy A Collura says


              do not bother leaving comments kind or not-

              I left a nice one yet they are monitoring WHO can or cannot leave a comment there- I have saved every comment before they deleted it —that they eventually got rid of including mine…

              That is wrong…that is more editing and cropping and its crap because I said nothing negative.

              that’s a bullshit.

              • Robert the Second says

                I looked up the movie with the same name, so thanks for pointing that out.

                I still think this GMHS trailer is pure garbage, which is a reflection of what the movie will be like.

                Based solely on the trailer, the YH Fire movie, allegedly “based on true events” is very likely how the GMHS really did fight wildlfires.

                The many reviewer comments of this trailer on YouTube are likewise nauseating.

  12. Joy A Collura says

    I saw this trend coming…Chief Scott Freitag

    Should fire departments continues to handle EMS calls? Or should private ambulance companies take it over? Would it save cities money do to that? Join Scott as he discusses the realities of the situation with Prescott, Ariz Fire Chief Dennis Light and Central Arizona Fire & Medical Authority Chief Scott Freitag.

    • Joy A Collura says

      So Chief Fraijo was not the chief to the GMHS? he just became the “media” face for that city…???

      It was Willis? who were Marsh’s boss.

      Why is so much blame being laid on to the city-

      I have all the documents pertaining to GMHS that they offered because I asked for it all-
      paid quite a bit of monies for it—

      So I wonder if the city suppressed data to me-

      because in that readings it does not add up-

      if anything the city shifted that it was this fire industry failing to provide me the cost data financial papers I asked in records-
      which they NEVER shared that-

      I do not like this shifting of blame or excusing as I hear in this podcast….we are all human beings…chief said he wanted the mayor to meet with the families and if the families were being told that…there is more to that families so please do not feed into it….the chief took role on that he felt he wanted to take role to diffuse…but there is another side…the chief senses there could of been more communications….yeah HOW ABOUT the communications between 3 to 4pm 6.30.13 where the men were told by radio a vlat was on its way…and let’s talk that 3 to 4pm chief-

      Chief talks about John Dougherty on the podcast as this is all “conspiracy theorists”

      Chief: I am JOY A COLLURA and you may not even know but there is much suppression and oppression and there is data…and you keep wanting the city involved as you publicly talk— how about you— come have a formal interview with me and let us go over the data. Since you are known as the “communicator”…

      The fire industry folks I have shared to in person— they know — how about when Dodder told us to go to your dept. and how we were treated when she said we should show you all our photos. Your dept. did not treat us respectively or with any empathy….and no sincerity…it was like “oh crap” the way we were made to feel in your building there. So you want to talk about the city…the city is the only ones there who were active in reaching us and fulfilling all our public records requests- not you or your entity.

      • Joy A Collura says
        Mile High Show, Episode 11 preview- Dan Fraijo

        what I find odd is he has his thoughts he shares out public as you hear the podcasts and its his thoughts but John Dougherty and people discussing the YHF are conspiracy theorists


        • Joy A Collura says

          Or how the investigation would of looked like if all the data they received was put into account vs suppression and oppression

        • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

          Reply to Diane lomas post on July 10, 2017 at 10:06 am

          >> Diane lomas said…
          >> I wonder what the investigation regarding the Yarnell Hill Fire
          >> would have looked like if Granite Mountain had not been a
          >> city hotshot crew?

          Well… for starters… if ‘Granite Mountain’ had been a fully ‘Federally sponsored’ Type 1 IHC Crew ( as most of them are ) instead of just a ‘Federally certified’ crew that happened to be ‘sponsored’ by a Municipality…

          …in addition to a standard US Forestry Federal level ‘SAIT’ …the incident on June 30, 2013 would have also AUTOMATICALLY ‘required’ another ( separate, independent ) investigation by the USDA ‘Office of Inspector General’ ( OIG ) office.

          The additional ( independent ) OIG investigation would have been REQUIRED BY LAW regardless of whatever ‘Special Accident Investigation’ was being conducted by US Forestry itself.

          It never happened.

          ‘Granite Mountain’ was, in fact, ‘certified’ by the Federal Government to be who they were claiming to be ( a Nationally-available Type 1 Hotshot Crew )… but regardless of that ‘Federal Certification’… when the tragedy happened the Feds basically ‘disavowed any ownership or association’ with a fire crew called ‘Granite Mountain’.

          So even the ‘Special Accident Investigation’ that DID take place ( with no independent OIG investigation ) wasn’t a ‘normal’ Federal-level investigation.

          It was ‘owned’ by the State of Arizona and Arizona State Forestry… the very ’employers’ of ‘Granite Moujntain’ on the day they were killed in that Arizona Forestry workplace.

          • Bob Powers says

            All true the reason the Federal Government did not own them was they were not Federal Employees. Had Granit Mt. been on a Federal Fire then they would have been paid by the Agency and under all coverage of a Federal Investigation.

            Note all Type II pickup crews are certified by the Government as well they go to different fires State, County and Federal.

            Federal Jurisdiction is on Federal Land or Federal Employees only.

            • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

              Reply to Bob Powers post on July 12, 2017 at 12:20 pm

              >> Bob Powers said…
              >> All true the reason the Federal Government did not
              >> own them was they were not Federal Employees.

              Correct… and that is why even if ‘Granite Mountain’ HAD been subcontracted for a ‘Federal Fire’… and that is where they had burned to death… I think the USDA OIG office would have found a way to ‘wiggle out’ of doing the required investigation.

              See below.

              >> Bob Powers also said…
              >> Had Granit Mt. been on a Federal Fire then they
              >> would have been paid by the Agency and under
              >> all coverage of a Federal Investigation.

              Maybe. Maybe not.

              See the actual TEXT of the actual LAW below.

              It ONLY refers to ‘Forest Service firefighters’ and ( in other places ) ‘Forest Service Employees’.

              It says nothing about ‘subcontractors’ temporarily working for the Feds, which is what Granite Mountain would have been had they been ‘working’ a ‘Federal Fire’.

              >> Bob Powers also said…
              >> Federal Jurisdiction is on Federal Land or
              >> Federal Employees only.

              It all would have come down to the definition of ‘Federal Employee’, and whether the OIG’s responsibility to investigate ‘Federal employee’ deaths included ‘Sub-contractors’.

              The lawyers would have had field day arguing whether or not the 19 GM Hotshots were actual ‘Federal employees’ at the moment they all burned to death.

              Here is the actual LAW that REQUIRES the OIG office to do ‘independent’ investigations of Willand Fire fatalities ( but only if the deceased were actual ‘Federal employees’ )…

              H.R. 3971 (107th Congress): To provide for an independent investigation of Forest Service firefighter deaths that are caused by wildfire entrapment or burnover.


              One Hundred Seventh Congress of the United States of America


              Begun and held at the City of Washington on Wednesday,
              the twenty-third day of January, two thousand and two

              An Act

              To provide for an independent investigation of Forest Service firefighter deaths that are caused by wildfire entrapment or burnover.

              Be it enacted by the Senate and House of Representatives of the United States of America in Congress assembled,


              In the case of each fatality of an officer or employee of the Forest Service that occurs due to wildfire entrapment or burnover, the Inspector General of the Department of Agriculture shall conduct an investigation of the fatality. The investigation shall not rely on, and shall be completely independent of, any investigation of the fatality that is conducted by the Forest Service.

              SEC. 2. SUBMISSION OF RESULTS.

              As soon as possible after completing an investigation under section 1, the Inspector General of the Department of Agriculture shall submit to Congress and the Secretary of Agriculture a report containing the results of the investigation.

              Speaker of the House of Representatives.
              Vice President of the United States and
              President of the Senate.


              • Bob Powers says

                When on a Federal Fire Sub contractors are considered under Federal Hire and Jurisdiction. That is all Sub Contractors Engines, Tractors, Crews, Bus drivers and camp help.

                • Bob Powers says

                  Federal Employees also are paid even on a fire no matter Jurisdiction their Base 40 Hours is out of the Federal Funded Budget pay. Thus the heavy toll on Budgets that has been a problem for several years. The only relief is that State and County reimburse total cost. All Federal Fires have no reimbursement to the agency.

        • Bob Powers says

          Probably not much difference. Although there would have been more Federal investigation. It is what it is today.

    • Joy A Collura says

      John Dougherty-

      You were mentioned by chief Dan F. in his podcast towards the end— on the topic of CONSPIRACY THEORISTS- but without this site and Wildfiretoday we the people do not have a way to share…around 24:58…25:09…25:16 marks…

  13. Bob Powers says


    The Deadliest 10 days in wild land fire history.

    June 30th to July Ninth— Three crews 48 fire fighters.

    The Yarnell Fire 19 June 30th
    The South Canyon Fire 14 July 6th
    The Rattle Snake Fire 15 July 9th

    NO LCES at a critical time in the Fire activity. Over run by the main fire.

    • Joy A Collura says

      Sorry for the loss of your father.

      Thank you Bob Powers.

      It took me YEARS to hear it…debate it…learn it…comprehend it and really GET IT…it took many interviews…and many talks…

      I truly thank you Bob Powers and RTS from day one to allow me to understand at my own pace yet you did not judge me…you remained firm and that FIRM way made me curious as a non firefighter how come these 2 men were so firm on that topic.

      God Bless You Both
      Yet I think he has with knowledge like that…

        • Bob Powers says

          I for one have never been afraid to admit that My Father made a huge mistake by not posting a look out after he and the foreman hiked out to look at the Back Fire & decided not to post a Look Out.

          • Bob Powers says

            Granit Mountain made a huge mistake. The Supervisor and Division Supervisor Made huge mistakes and men died including them.

            South Canyon was no different the Division Supervisor made a huge mistake as did the Hot Shots and Smoke jumpers Men Died.

            The 10 and 18 are simple not complicated we are all trained in fire suppression training manuals give us the same information as the 10 and 18 all the 10 and 18 dose is put the safety rules in one place they are ORDERS AND SITUATIONS THAT HAVE KILLED PEOPLE OVER THE YEARS WHEN NOT FOLLOWED.


            LCES is nothing more than a piece of the orders. A critical piece.
            A Fire Fighters life depends on those 4 things every minuet you are on the line.

            • Joy Collura says

              Yes but in the start if you remember I debated without all facts public how can you assess that but after much research and learning I now see how one can firmly say that with or without more data.

              • Bob Powers says

                Bottom line each Fire Fighter is trained and responsible for their own safety. That is and has always been the first year training of S110 which includes the 10 and 18.

                From Squad Boss to Incident Commander. From First year FF to Hot Shot crewman, Smoke Jumper, Engine Crewman From a 2 man fire to a 4,000 man fire. Each individual is responsible for their safety and the safety of the people under them..

    • Joy A Collura says

      I do have a fire industry inquiry.

      If I got a photo of one vehicle on a fire at the scene and then get a foia or public records and see they sent out to be paid for another vehicle because it is more monies for that district…is that fraud? Or is it common deceptive practice nowadays?

      Thank you for anyone in fire industry for replying.

    • rocksteady says


      End of June (before monsoons)
      Ugly terrain
      Aggressive fire behaviour
      Planning and communications issues

      Gives you some insight as to how complex things are on a wildfire incident. It is easy to sit back and type on the computer that “if they did this or that” all would have been fine… Maybe so, but at the time and in the spot they were in they did not have that luxury…

      • Robert the Second says


        You posted: “Gives you some insight as to how complex things are on a wildfire incident. It is easy to sit back and type on the computer that “if they did this or that” all would have been fine… Maybe so, but at the time and in the spot they were in they did not have that luxury…”

        I’m gonna have to disagree with you, in part, on this one. They clearly had that luxury.

        If they had only followed the WFF Rules ALL their usual way of selectively following them, they

        • Robert the Second says

          Auto correct screwed it up, so reposting.

          If they had only followed ALL the WFF Rules instead of their usual way of selectively following them, they would have done just fine and still be alive.

          • rocksteady says

            Maybe I worded it wrong RTS,…. My point was we can analyze to death everything that occurs on a fire, post occurrence, on a site like this fairly easily, however when you are on a dynamic, ever changing incident (like Nuttall) it is not as easy as some non WFF types seem to think it is/should be.

            I agree with the 10 and 18 and safety always of WFF over structures and other values…..

            I also feel that the US relies too much on Hotshot crews to build and burn line UNSUPPORTED…. There may be a helicopter or 2 or a VLAT around, but the Nuttall scenario is the first time I ever recall hearing of a HotShot crew having a hoseline in place…

        • Joy A Collura says

          After what I know now

          I AGREE STRONGLY with RTS and Bob Powers on the 10 and 18 and lces.

          End of story.

  14. WantsToKnowTheTruth says


    The fourth anniversary of the 2013 Yarnell Hill Fire tragedy has come and gone.

    It was a pretty ‘quiet’ one.

    Upwards of 2 million taxpayer dollars paid for the first ‘Memorial Park’ in Arizona’s history… and there wasn’t even a single ‘commerative’ event or moment held there.

    Zero. Zip. Nada.

    In the words of Arizona Parks Director Sue Black…

    “Nothing is planned. We’re just going to have a regular day at the park.”

    As for the mainstream media ( MSM )… most of the articles published were just repeating the same long-standing myth about what happened.

    That they were actively ‘fighting the fire’, and then the wind changed and the fire killed them.

    “The big bad fire just came and got them.”

    Nothing to see here ( except 19 metal crosses stuck in the ground ).
    Move along, move along.

    Here is just one example.

    The only thing good about this ‘article’ is that it reminds us ( as it should ) of the names and ages of the 19 men who needlessly lost their lives in Yarnell on the afternoon of June 30, 2013…

    Article Title: Remembering the Granite Mountain Hotshots four years later
    Published: 5:58 PM, Jun 30, 2017

    PRESCOTT, Ariz. ( KGUN9-TV )

    A time of remembrance this morning to honor the 19 Granite Mountain Hotshots who died fighting the Yarnell Hill Fire.

    Four years ago today, the crew was battling the fire when a wind shift sent flames racing toward them, trapping them.

    The names of each firefighter was also read aloud during the ceremony.

    Ashcraft, Andrew – Age: 29
    Caldwell, Robert – Age: 23
    Carter, Travis – Age: 31
    Deford, Dustin – Age: 24
    MacKenzie, Christopher – Age: 30
    Marsh, Eric – Age: 43
    McKee, Grant – Age: 21
    Misner, Sean – Age: 26
    Norris, Scott – Age: 28
    Parker, Wade – Age: 22
    Percin, John – Age: 24
    Rose, Anthony – Age: 23
    Steed, Jesse – Age: 36
    Thurston, Joe – Age: 32
    Turbyfill, Travis – Age: 27
    Warneke, William – Age: 25
    Whitted, Clayton – Age: 28
    Woyjeck, Kevin – Age: 21
    Zuppiger, Garret – Age: 27

    The flames from the Yarnell Hill Fire destroyed 127 homes.

    Even the very person who is PAID to know ( and tell others ) what REALLY happened couldn’t come up with much of anything to say this year.

    Brit Rosso, the actual paid Director of the actual taxpayer-funded “Wildland Fire Lessons Learned Center”, ( WFLLC ) was asked to put a special ‘fourth anniversary message’ up on the official WFLLC website.

    But all even he could come up was some story about how some friend of his once met the Granite Mountain Hotshots, and then wrote Rosso a letter and asked him to pass it along to all the GM family members. Rosso says he did that ( which is then disputed by a parent of one of the Hotshots ).

    That ‘official fourth anniversary’ message from Rosso is here…

    The Official ‘Wildland Fire Lessons Learned Center’
    Article Title: In Honor of the Granite Mountain Hotshots
    Published: June 30, 2017
    By: Brit Rosso – Director of the Wildland Fire Lessons Learned Center.

    The very first comment on Rosso’s offical ‘fourth anniversary message’ was from David Turbyfill… the father of deceased Granite Mountain Hotshot Travis Turbyfill.

    Mr. Turbyfill points out that even now, on the fourth anniversary, more proof continues to emerge about how he ( and other family members ) have always been treated like shit because they simply dare to ‘Want To Know The Truth’ about how their loved ones REALLY died.

    David Turbyfill said ( to Britt Rosso )…

    Comments on “In Honor of the Granite Mountain Hotshots”

    Comment by: David Turbyfill
    Posted: June 30, 2017 at 6:01 am

    What a lovely heartfelt, thoughtful letter.

    Too bad I never got to read or know of it before, but just so typical of how I have been treated during this entire tragedy.

    Yes I am mad and saddened by the system and the process.

    To the leadership of Fire, be mindful of how your actions or inactions affect people,

    Parents NEVER get to move on.

    David Turbyfill


    So now that yet another anniversary has come and gone we can can back to the REAL work of finding out ( as much as humanly possible ) what really happened that day… and how to PREVENT ( as much as humanly possible ) anything similar from EVER happening again.

    THAT is what those men who died would really, truly, WANT us to be doing.

    Lives are STILL ‘at risk’.

    Carry on.

    • Joy A Collura says

      Well…I was by mere chance at right spot at right time and had no clue it was to take place 6.30.13…Sonny was in er for a blood clot and after we happen to be at a public spot where many loved ones were and what I wish for is the loved ones to share among another versus to me what they shared because each one keep sharing to me about a certain media outlet does have stored away or made “gone” what we have gathered already over time so my question there is there a way to “PUSH” a media outlet to make public a piece of footage they were told not to…legally can we get that footage. I know foias and public records mean nothing in that area so how do I get that pushed forward and out public versus hidden. Also the park was packed on 6.30.13…my husband saw the GMHS buggies coming down the hill as he went up the hill to work- I was up in Prescott and ran into a loved one where his eyes were still filled up and wet and it was late day and that person knows without me telling so the industry and locals that were on scene already shared what I already note behind the scenes to him…David also has every right to feel sad with a vein running of disappointment because we know him and others were not shown the respect they deserved for the loss of a child. You are right wwtktt- this anniversary overall was quiet yet in Phoenix they did hold a special event for the families and loved ones…I have heard from some they were never contacted to help in contributing to the movie due out on their loved ones so they will be seeing movie to see how they portray the men as individuals.

  15. rocksteady says

    Day before the 4th anniversary of the tragedy, but we still don’t have answers…….

    The people who know the truth still have not come forward..

    All of the hard work and discussion that has occurred on this site really has not helped to find out why it happened…

    Frustrating that we have twenty some chapters of discussion on here, with lots of really good intel that has been analyzed and assessed…. and we don’t seem to be any closer…..

    Still great to see everyone here is still fighting for answers, we have not just given up and walked away…

    The lives of the GMIHS crew mean more to me than just throwing my arms in the air and saying screw it…

    Tomorrow I will wear my commemorative Granite Mountain T- shirt to work, to honor those lost, as well to indicate that we still want answers…

    RIP fellas, you ARE NOT forgotten…

        • says

          Reading today on Wildfire Today
          37 thoughts on “first claim filed for death on Yarnell Hill Fire”. Comment from Calvin Clark on nov. 17,2013 is relevant:
          “At this point it seems the lack of accountability and total whitewash of any true understanding of this incident is going to cost the taxpayers dearly, maybe the lessons learned will be to TELL THE TRUTH “

          • Bob Powers says

            Yes we as Fire man should always remember no mater what caused the Deaths. They are our brothers and on other Fires our Sisters. Rest in Peace.
            The 9th of July I will again remember My Father and the 14 who died with him on the Rattle Snake Canyon Fire July 9th 1953.


          • says

            Also in comments from 2013? Is one from joe w. Stating that the fire that trapped granite mountain came from one that was set in the vicinity of Helms ranch and that men know the truth out this who are not speaking up.

            • says

              we know that the fire that trapped the men was burning at about 2,000 degrees–are these temperatures typical of a fire in that fuel or more typical in one that is set with drip torches , etc.?

              • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

                The temperature would be typical of a fire in THAT fuel type… but ( more importantly ) in THAT LOCATION.

                The entire box canyon served as a ‘chimney’ concentrating the heat and the intensity… just like firefighters are ( supposedly ) taught in ‘Fire Behavior 101’ classes.

                It made no difference how the fire that entered the mouth of that box canyon ‘chimney’ got started.

                Once it ( the fire ) DID enter that canyon… the wind and the fire and the dry, oily, explosive fuel combined to create a ‘furnace’ that could have fired pottery.

                The only survivable scenario was to not have been in that location at all.

                • Bob Powers says

                  Drip Torches do not make fire any hotter.
                  A fire creates its own heat based on many factors.
                  Fuel, wind, location or Topography, slope fuel moisture,

                  Based on the info and time lapse photos that were done by WTKTT there were two heads that ran at the crew with high winds pushing them. There were no other flames or smoke column from the Helms area during the blow up. The Crew could see the Ranch coming down the canyon they could not see what the main fire was doing until it hit the mouth of the canyon.

                  • WantsToKnowTheTruth says


                    Think about it…

                    If a fire HAD been ‘started’ somewhere near the Helms Ranch… then even without having posted a lookout… it would have been CLEARLY visible to Acting GM Superintendent Jesse Steed when he ( and the GM crew ) arrived at that ‘Descent Point’ and/or during the whole time they were ‘Descending’ to the floor of the box canyon.

                    The fireline that ‘got them’ was the same one they had been photographing there in the ‘safe black’… before they decided to LEAVE that location.

                    And because they violated the established rules of their profession and ‘lost sight of the fire’ with ‘no lookout in place’… they had no idea how FAST that very same fireline was crossing that ‘middle bowl’ and rushing towards the mouth of the box canyon they decided to ‘drop into’.

                    • Joy A Collura says

                      wwtktt- a news channel took footage of over by the Shrine/Sesame/Helms that day and that footage was sealed to not go public “ever”-

                      there is GMHS loved ones and locals who know about this data and a father of one of the 19 men also recently shared to me more data on that very topic.

                      However there is no way to push a news channel to produce it publicly.

                      shame on that news channel.

                    • Joy A Collura says

                      Nice recap of the sair wwtktt yet if you are local and been interviewing and watching…too much oppression and suppression going on so again without all the facts laid out public than we will keep the pipe dream a live alive for the Sait….however wouldn’t be my first let down in life…the moment pat McMahon after decades of entertaining in one moment changed the lives of many grownup kids when he said the who lamp bag parts were rigged…I was lucky enough at legend city to get a bag from Ladmo in the 70s.. So I guess I was part of the act and did not know it…one day someone will slip from their locked in suppression…and again will affect the grown up kids of the world…seems that’s the way the world goes…still shame on pat and shame on the news channel who has hid that for 4 years.

                    • Joy A Collura says

                      And let us look at Shrine to Helms
                      and the ACTUAL PHOTOS I took and how many of the vehicles stationed there as I took the pic as the eyewitnesses and tell me how many of those folks in the the photos and the vehicles ever even made it to inquiry day of the investigations. Please explain to the world why then if nothing took place my photos show Blue Ridge there and others yet you do not see a proper investigation done to one of the most crucial areas that a flame front is coming right yet it was not until 3 to 4 pm mark you hear the homeowners explain the chaos of vehicle events and how did George’s
                      wall get knocked down whena dozer on trailer was eyewitnessed to make turn on that land…why so much edited moments…every point counts near the men and where they died…from the Helms to the Shrine I have people tell me they were there but yet never made it to the sair?????

                    • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

                      Deceased Granite Mountain Hotshot Kevin Woyjeck’s father’s first name is, in fact, ‘Joe’.

                      Whether he is the ‘Joe W.’ in the comment from 2013 about a ‘fire’ being set on June 30, 2013 in the vicinity of the Boulder Springs Ranch has never been verified.

          • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

            This might be ‘Captain Obvious’… but one thing to make sure and pay attention to with the new “Are you a Human Being?” safety catch for posting is whether or not the ‘math captcha’ has EXPIRED or not.

            By the time you finish typing even a short message, the ‘captcha’ that loaded with the page has already ‘expired’… and there will be this message ( in red lettering ) under the “Are you a human?” question…

            “Time limit is exhausted. Please reload the CAPTCHA.”

            That does NOT mean you need to reload the PAGE.
            To ‘reload the captcha’…. you need to press the little ‘circle of arrows’
            just to the right of the math boxes above the ‘Post Comment’ button.

            That loads a new CAPTCHA without reloading the page… then you can ‘do the math’ and hit ‘Post Comment’ and your comment should go through.

    • Joy A. Collura says (never forgotten…always remembered)

      SO last Friday another fire near me…He will go to Yarnell court 7-19-17 10am for criminal citation-

      I am investigating it and having hard time finding the current map of Congress Arizona as of TODAY to look over his burn scars…everything is blocked or cached even forestry link has no current look so if anyone knows how to see current TODAY map- please let me know—Rocksteady?

      A pilot friend of mine is trying to see if I can fly over and get LIVE time aerial—

      just google:
      Yavapai County Rancher Trash Burning Leads To A Bigger Problem

      What is up with watermelon in 2017? has anyone got a GOOD watermelon in 2017? I mean like a melon should be??? same with apricots….what gives…

      • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

        Reply to Joy A. Collura post on June 24, 2017 at 11:25 pm

        >> Joy A. Collura said…
        >> just google:
        >> Yavapai County Rancher Trash Burning Leads To A Bigger Problem

        Here is a direct link to one of the articles…

        KAFF News
        Article Title: Yavapai County Rancher Trash Burning Leads To A Bigger Problem Near Congress

        From the article…
        A Yavapai County rancher is in trouble after he conducted some burning on his ranch last Friday that led to a bigger fire. Sheriff’s officials say 82-year-old James Thompson was burning trash in a trash can on his ranch near Congress, when he went to go get some water. When he returned, the fire spread to the field and then to two sheds and a vehicle. Fire crews responded to the area on Hillside Road at Thompson Ranch, Hillside at around noon. Fire officials used water drops and other methods to keep the fire away from a nearby ranch and railroad tracks. Thompson told deputies he wasn’t aware of a countywide fire ban, even though there was a digital sign posted on Highway 89 in Congress talking about the ban. The man was cited for reckless burning.

        And from the first public comment made on the article…

        On June 23, 2017 at 4:00 pm, Joy A. Collura commented…

        Hello world. It is not Hillside nor Hillside Peak or Hillside Rd.

        It is rd 62/S Date Creek Rd.

        So that is the news nowadays huh…copy and paste media releases…

        How about going and fact checking how the burn scar is and how can people believe what they read anymore…they had in police report on tenderfoot fire another rancher as suspect when the rancher was not even in the area. Do your own research world. The media is failing us by just copy and pasting media releases.

    • calvin says

      Joy. Thanks.
      It looks like a pretty good path from the descent point to the deployment site.
      Woukd you say that trail was established prior to 6/30 2013?
      I do realize it would not have been improved like it is in the video.

      Wtk. Any other photos that may capture the area/trail just after the fire? Thanks

      • Bob Powers says

        I would bet that new trail meets the requirements of a hiking trail. established by the State and feds to meet grade specifications. It would not be the path taken by the crew. They would have taken the path of less resistance and striate down the mountain as much as possible.

      • Joy A Collura says

        hi calvin—reply to: JUNE 25, 2017 AT 10:26 AM

        calvin asked: Would you say that trail was established prior to 6/30 2013?

        joy replied: oh hell no—I am even SHOCKED BEYOND BELIEF how the very trail we bear wallowed through 6.30.13 was thought up by someone on the board to make it out that way of our way out that fateful day…it was no way a trail…not even near to the 2 track…that can be confirmed by archival satellite images as well as my photos-
        From highway 89 to the Deployment Zone will always bewilder me WHO came up with the trail and did they know the very trail to honor the men would be the CBS Morgan Loew documented trail of the hikers on 6.30—but BEFORE was using washes or scaling boulders or bear wallowing through…

    • says

      I am reading in The Wildfire Reader p.221 that “many in the firefighting community know their puny efforts are meaningless, but it is perceived as important to make the attempt,no matter how futile”
      This struck a chord with me as I thought of granite mountain hotshots asked to undertake an impossible task but committed to it anyway to appear they were making the attempt.

      • says

        Another statement in Wildfire Reader that caught my attention is on page 217
        “Given the major ecological and evolutionary influence of fire in most western ecosystems, and the undisputed negative impacts on natural fire regimes from livestock grazing, it may be time to terminate livestock production on public lands”

  16. WantsToKnowTheTruth says


    “…the tree did not behave as Justin thought it would.”

    ‘Thank you’ to forum participant ‘Robert the Second’ ( RTS ) for pointing out that the ( final ) “Strawberry Fire Fatality Learning Review” report was published just a few days ago, on June 9, 2017.

    It’s the FULL report about what caused the death of first-year Lolo Hotshot Justin Beebe at the ‘Strawberry Fire’ back on August 13, 2016.

    It’s a comprehensive report… but I see nothing in there that justifies the 9 ( NINE ) full months it has taken for USFS employee and investigation lead Mike Dudley ( of Yarnell investigation fame ) to finally publish THIS report.

    The report is on the following page at the Wildland Fire Lessons Learned Center…

    Wildland Fire Lessons Learned Center
    “A lesson is learned when we change our behavior
    The Strawberry Fire Tree Strike Fatality ( 2016 )

    The report confirms the long-standing rumor that Justin Beebe was actually just ‘filling in’ that day as a member of Lolo Hotshot Saw Team 1 when he was killed by a ‘snagged tree’ that he was trying to bring to the ground with a chainsaw.

    2016 was Justin Beebe’s FIRST SEASON as a ‘Lolo Hotshot’.

    Beebe was NOT hired as a ‘Sawyer’. He was, officially, just a first-year basic crew member.

    From the report itself…

    Just prior to departure for the Strawberry Fire, a Lolo Senior Firefighter accepted an assignment as a Crew Boss Trainee, creating an opening for Firefighter Justin Beebe to join Saw Team 1. Justin’s previous saw experience, including hardwood logging in Vermont combined with skills demonstrated during his re-certification in May, positioned him for the assignment as sawyer. On the Strawberry Fire, Justin would get his FIRST CHANCE TO RUN A SAW on a Hotshot Crew Saw Team.

    And again, at another place in the ‘report’, it mentions that Justin Beebe was just ‘filling in’ as a Sawyer on the day he died and was only ‘hoping’ to one day be an ( offical ) IHC Sawyer “in the future”…

    Justin had recently joined Saw Team 1, having previously demonstrated he was a capable sawyer. On the Strawberry Fire assignment, he filled a position vacated when a regular saw team member accepted an assignment as Crew Boss Trainee. By filling in on Saw Team 1, Justin was demonstrating his skills for a possible saw position in the future.

    The report goes into great detail about the ‘task’ that Justin Beebe had undertaken on this, his (quote) “FIRST CHANCE TO RUN A SAW on a Hotshot Crew”.

    It was a ‘double snag’ on a steep, rocky hillside.

    TWO previously burned trees had gotten ‘hung up’ when they fell into a third, unburned tree.

    Justin was able to ‘drop’ one of the TWO ‘hangs’ without incident, apparently.

    It was his attempt to drop the SECOND of the TWO ‘hangs’ that killed him.

    In a nutshell… as Justin finished his first through-cut at the base of the second ‘hung tree’… the bulk of the snag tree above his cut was then free to ‘swing towards’ the tree it was hung up in.

    But the snag tree did NOT then ‘fencepost’ into the ground, as might be expected.

    The upper part of the snag tree was so ‘entwined’ with the base tree that it then ( according to the report ) began to ‘swing like a pendulum’ back towards the base tree. The report itself used the example of a tetherball on a rope swinging freely back towards its own base pole.

    It was only AFTER this ‘pendulum swing’ that the upper part of the ‘hung’ tree then dislodged from the base tree and began a fall to the ground… but now ( because of the momentum from the ‘pendulum swing’ ) it was reversing direction and falling back TOWARDS Beebe, instead of AWAY from him.

    Beebe was trying to clear himself and ‘escape’ away from where he had been standing while making his ‘cut’, but ( according to a witness ), Beebe had his back completely turned to the site and was not really aware of the ‘pendulum swing’ and that the tree was now falling directly at him… so Justin had no chance whatsoever to even try and take any ‘evasive action’.

    From the report…
    As reported by the observing Lead Sawyer, Justin “had his back to the tree and never saw what got him.” He seemed to be intent on getting distance from the snag and never determined the true direction of the fall.

    The falling tree struck Justin Beebe squarely in the head and he was knocked to the ground, immediately unconscious. The tree did NOT end up on TOP of Justin. He was not ‘pinned under it’.

    The head injury Justin sustained in that one moment would prove to be fatal.

    As for whether or not Justin really had the right ‘experience’ and ‘expertise’ to even be attempting this complicated ‘double snag’ on that steep hillside… the report has this to say…



    Justin was qualified as a B-Faller. The felling operation in which he was engaged was within the scope of a B-certified sawyer. His crew, other saw-team members, and

    Justin believed he was qualified to cut this tree. Nothing indicates that their process or reasoning was misaligned with what is normal. Saw-certified members of the Learning Review Team, including B and C Fallers, concurred that they would have attempted this falling operation.

    According to his saw partner’s account, Justin felt comfortable cutting the tree. Apparently, the tree did not behave as Justin thought it would.

    This situation of being carded, comfortable, and surprised is not only common but is exemplified by the frequently expressed notion that “everyone has a tree story,” meaning that nearly every sawyer is surprised by a tree at some point in his or her career.

    “…the tree did not behave as Justin thought it would.”

    The report does NOT include Justin’s actual ( full )’Red Card’ qualifications, or his ‘FALB’ Taskbook’ indicating WHEN ( and HOW ) he had supposedly achieved a ‘FALB’ rating… nor does the report indicate how much actual EXPERIENCE Justin had at attempting to do what he was doing when he was killed.

    The report then goes on to confirm that it really did take over an hour-and-a-half to actually get Justin back to at least the Strawberry Fire Helibase. That is where he was pronounced dead at 1746 ( 5:46 PM ).

    From one of the ‘timelines’ in the report…

    1600 – Medical Emergency first declared over the radio.
    1731 – Helicopter H551 arrives at Strawberry Helibase with Justin on board. Other professional air ambulance personnel who were already ‘waiting’ there at that Helibase for Justin to arrive ran an EKG on Justin before removing him from H551. That EKG showed ‘no signs of life’.
    1746 – Patient death declared right there at the Strawberry Helibase in consultation with an ER Doctor via remote telephone link.


    So that’s 1 hour and 31 minutes from the time the ‘Emergency’ was first declared to when Justin Beebe finally ‘arrived’ at the Stawberry Helibase.

    Helicopter H551 had actually originally ‘launched’ from the Strawberry Helibase at 1623… just 23 minutes after the ‘Emergency’ was declared and a ‘short haul’ extraction for Justin had been ‘requested’… but instead of launching already rigged for short haul extraction, H551 launched rigged for a ‘rappel mission’ instead.

    As the report then details… this turned into a time-consuming situation that resulted in the ‘rappel’ mission first being attempted over the site of the emergency… and then Helicopter H551 having to abandon that first mission… much to ( as the report itself says ) the ‘anger’ of the personnel on the ground attending to Justin.

    H551 had to then go BACK to the intermediate H1 Helispot between the incident and the Strawberry Helibase and spend the time to ‘reconfigure’ for a short-haul extraction before returning to where Justin Beebe was.

    That ‘reconfigure for short-haul instead of rappel’ took almost another half-hour ( 23 minutes… from 1632 to 1655 )

    There was also additional time lost because no one attending to Justin on the ground realized ( at first ) that the ‘basket’ which Justin Beebe was in ( a Transverse Rescue Stretcher (TRS) ) was NOT all that was going to be needed to accomplish the ‘short haul’ extraction. Even once H551 reconfigured for ‘short haul extraction’ and returned to the scene… two H551 Helitack had to be ‘inserted’ via short-haul to the scene in order to install an additional ‘Bauman Bag’ around Justin’s TRS gurney in order to actually perform the short-haul extraction.

    That operation along ( according to the timeline ) took another 17 full minutes ( 1659 to 1716 ).

    The report, however, says that none of this added any (quote) ‘significant time’ to the rescue mission…

    H551 first arrived on the accident scene rigged to rappel, did their reconnaissance, tried to rappel in the rescuers but aborted due to shifting winds, and then went to a nearby location to configure for short-haul. This did not actually add significant time to the mission. However, to the people on the ground who did not understand the sequence of events to expect in this procedure, when H551 hovered to attempt to deploy the rappellers and then flew away, it appeared that the short-haul extraction was aborted, and each minute that passed was excruciating. They did not understand why the helicopter did not have the short-haul line attached to just come in, “hook Justin up” in the TRS, and fly him away.

    “This did not actually add significant time to the mission.”


    Almost a full-half hour isn’t considered ‘significant’ when a man is fighting for his life?

    The report also verifies that for the 10-15 minutes it took to actually perform the short-haul extraction… no one was able to continue giving CPR to Justin Beebe. The report does NOT claim this was a major contributing factor to Justin’s death. CPR was ‘restarted’ as soon as possible after the short-haul extraction to Helispot H1, and it continued while Justin was then ‘onboard’ Helicopter H551 for the ‘second run’ over to the Strawberry Helibase… but even so… when Justin arrived at the Strawberry Helibase his EKG had already ‘flat-lined’ and there were (quote) “no signs of life”.

    The report does NOT say what ( if any ) Justin’s “signs of life” were BEFORE the start of the short-haul extraction itself and the temporary cessation of CPR.

    One of the other long-standing ‘rumors’ has also been that because of the long delay that Justin might have actually ‘bled to death’ before being extracted.

    That is ( according to the report ) NOT the case… and that ‘rumor’ is now dispelled.

    There is NO MENTION in the report of any significant ‘bleeding’ following the accident, and the ’cause of death’ is reported as being pure ‘head injuries’.

    ( Continued next ‘Reply’ )…

    • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

      ( Continued )…

      And even though the report says that Justin’s simple FALB Red-Card saw rating ‘qualified’ him to be attempting what he was doing… it’s important to note that this report is also now REQUIRING what amounts to a pretty extensive OVERHAUL and UPGRADE of current NWCG chainsaw training AND ‘qualification tracking’.

      In other words… is the (current ) FALB training and certification process ACTUALLY producing people who are actually able to ( safely ) do what they are supposed to be able to do?

      The report seems to have its doubts.

      From the report…

      Themes 1 and 2: Risk Management/Saw Operations

      1. Bolster the interagency chainsaw training curriculum and qualification tracking standards.

      – Provide additional training for cutting hung trees in the S-212 curriculum or in the Advanced Feller courses, including cutting procedures that do not use the conventional pie cut method ( horizontal and sloping cut ), backcut with a stump shot, and holding wood to determine direction. The increased complexity of this style of cut is due to uncertainty in the fall direction.

      – Emphasize the size-up process of cutting a hung tree, including the evaluation of escape routes. If we can increase the awareness of the complexity of cutting green or dead-hung trees to all levels of sawyers, we will begin to address the gap of experience now existing among different experience levels of fellers.

      – During training and evaluations, emphasize the importance of intra-saw team communication in the risk-management process during saw operations to promote a culture where all firefighters are included in risk-management discussions.

      – Evaluate ways to improve how sawyers communicate about the options available when given a cutting assignment, including whether to cut or to flag and make known.

      – Expedite release of the newly developed US Forest Service guidance on saw operation complexity so that it can be included in seasonal saw refresher classes as soon as possible.

      – NPS will evaluate the newly developed US Forest Service guidance on saw operation complexity for use in Service or across agencies.

      – The US Forest Service will develop a consistent saw training tracking system ( e.g., use IQCS as an interagency standard for saw qualification tracking ).

      Thanks again to RTS for the alert about the appearance of this final report.

      It SHOULD now be REQUIRED READING for anyone trying to achieve ANY of the NWCG FALx sawyer ratings… and for anyone who ever pulls a rope on a chainsaw anywhere near a Wildland Fire.

      • Robert the Second says

        WTKTT, thanks for posting this.

        Focus on these items:

        (1) Figures 5 and 7 on pages 9 and 10. They want you to believe that the fatal falling accident occurred on terrain this steep. It did NOT. The fatality site was basically on a flat bench with steep, 60% to 80% slopes above and below it.

        (2) “The Accident” on page 11, paragraph 2 has some inaccurate and/or questionable information, e.g whether or not he was still carrying his saw, the distance “away from his cutting position” was much more than 15 feet, more like 50 feet or more.

        (3) Figure 8 on page 12 suggests that the support tree and “hang up” was on a very steep slope. See (1). Totally FALSE! The slopes above and below the fatality site were that steep, however, the fatality site was on a fairly flat bench.

        (4) “1620 – Line Medic (1 Tango), a paramedic, arrived on scene and administered drugs.” Those drugs were in the form of Epinephrine, or ‘Epi.’ Page 16

        (5) “Appendix C – Helmet Report” on pages 39-40, Figures C1 and C2. This is clearly NOT his hardhat because personnel on the scene at the time stated the front of his hardhat was shattered away on one side and his helmet suspension webbing and stitching did NOT remain intact as they claim. They stated the suspension clips were all shattered.

        Surprisingly, the CRP Team makes an accurate statement here: “The impact of this tree was likely far greater than that, [3780 Newtons (850 Pounds)] thus beyond the limitations of the helmet,” however, they do NOT go into any other detail. Instead, they show us a hardhat that indicates scuff marks and minimal damage clearly survivable with none to minimal injury.

        • says

          Robert the second and wants to know the truth,
          Thank you for your comments and information. You give us the facts and truth when it is hard to find in these documents.

  17. Robert the Second says

    The AZ Supreme Court denied Ms. McKee a review of her YH Fire lawsuit.

    Supreme Court
    PHOENIX, ARIZONA 85007-3231
    TELEPHONE: (602) 452-3396
    May 15, 2017

    Arizona Supreme Court No. CV-17-0045-PR
    Court of Appeals, Division One No. 1 CA-CV 15-0800
    Maricopa County Superior Court Nos. CV2014-009068,
    CV2014-009069, and CV2014-009070

    The following action was taken by the Supreme Court of the State of Arizona on May 15, 2017, in regard to the above-referenced cause:

    ORDERED: Petition for Review = DENIED.

    Justice Gould did not participate in the determination of this matter.
    Janet Johnson, Clerk

    David L Abney
    Brock J Heathcotte
    Daniel P Schaack
    Michael L Parrish
    Amy M Wood

    • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

      Reply to Robert the Second ( RTS ) post on May 20, 2017 at 9:50 am

      >> RTS said…
      >> The AZ Supreme Court denied Ms. McKee a review of her YH Fire lawsuit.

      Thank you for the ‘heads up’ on that.

      I have always believed that if you are looking for any actual ‘bravery’ with regards to the Yarnell Hill Fire tragedy and its aftermath… you need not look any farther than Marcia McKee.

      I hope she continues to fight for finding out the TRUTH about why she needlessly lost her only son and her best friend on June 30, 2013.

      As for this most recent development…

      At least they ( the Arizona supreme court ) acknowledged the fact that ( now ) supreme court justice Andrew Gould was one of the judges on the appeals court who ruled against Marcia McKee’s original appeal, and they ( apparently ) cut him out of the loop on THIS decision ( as they should ).

      That means the ‘decision’ came down to just 6 others.

      Scott Bales, John Pelander, Ann Timmer, Robert Brutinel, Clint Bolick, John Lopez IV.

      Obviously it wasn’t a 3/3 tie… or the ‘decision’ would have had to default in Marcia Mckee’s favor.

      I wonder what the actual ‘vote count’ was.

      • Joy A Collura says

        I know it has to be difficult to hear news in hopes of resolution Marcia-

        Yet in His time there will be-

        (((R E S O L U T I O N)))

        ….or was it revolution…

        terrible terrible terrible terrible terrible terrible
        news in Manchester- Sorry for the losses there.

        I use to get so offended that a group tied me to any kind of medium who-hoo stuff awhile back and then some lady said take my class on animal communications- it is your path to life and I was like “I know—I am living it”….

        I do not need a class on it but maybe fine tune my thought process.

        The only thing I do which I learned from Dr. Ted Putnam early on was be mindful focused and I began meditation. I have no whoopie-dee-do weirdo crap born as a medium except depth meditation is all I have done alot of this 2017-

        For a goof and only that due to heat temps rising (my thermometer says 104) I have attended class via telepathic…conference call…the ladies all range in age all the way up to almost 70 years old and all professionals of elite areas and wow amazing life histories even one is a kick ass scientist I wish I had that brain of hers. I always use the word “creepy” if I do not know why or how something is happening in my space…like when Sonny’s counselor found her daughter dead on the floor yet her daughter is as alive as I ever seen and I am sharing data only they knew or understood….or the sheriff sends me a link to a thief and I got right on who I felt could identify them and then I got a missing person report and it just keeps rolling…we went to pick up free Craigslist telephone poles and I meet the young man who I have no clue his name just his face as a man stands next to him saying he is Jack and told me things to bring up to him—things only him and Jack knew who ends up being his deceased father— whoah…then I had in meditation a woman and dead 2 yr old and Sonny had a roll in the yard thinking it was recent visitor and yet 2 days later at the library Charla comes in asking about 2yr old Ronnie McGee (I saw it before the event happened)—

        then class came

        “Joy, I want you to read “NAME OF PERSON”‘s pet(s)

        and I replied how can I read- what book should I read to…her pets?.

        I just do not get that whole way of things and if I see stuff I usually rebuke it
        but I have to be straight I have not rebuked fire data…they all laughed as I explained and they said I share my thought process aloud in vocal as well as in writing and its about true isn’t it—I did not have the structure or parental moments others did or even the proper schooling—I mean the variety of early-hood schools I went to were not that great…the name Constitution or such sounds better than to actually attend it- zip code it and access the area; I ain’t kidding. I lived all over Phoenix…so anyways…

        “Joy, read her pet animal(s)”

        and I said “I am blank…is there a system to do this magic moment. I don’t see anything…what am I to do or look for”

        and as I said it I did see and the teacher said “share what you are seeing I know you see something” and I was vulnerable so deeply reminded of how a small group labelled me so I felt stuck to speak what I seen- what if I see something my mind just made up- they convinced me to share and as I did it was like explaining a scene by scene tv episode and the women said to the teacher can I say something and the teacher said ok…”Joy is spot on with every detail- she is gifted “…

        Funny. me? gifted?

        To me a gift for Joy would be a free year of massages or vanity back for I have no clue the lady I see as I pass a mirror here and there…or free fresh produce for a year- those are gifts I would like not this shit. That is for others- I do not know why I always rebuke it but I do know I can connect to alot that others cannot and they have confirmed the data I see is spot on and accurate and consistent. The reason I bring this up. Recently Bill Gabbert went on leave from WILDFIRE TODAY and Jason P. is there and I get updates and in one update I used the data in my meditation and I just want to mark this date because the bleachers tell me this Summer is “it” and I think for the first time I think he is right…I really feel confident now even though I am away from home..helping clear an area and working on a few cases….there is a lady KEELY CHRISTABEL BEAUDRY CULVER who was in news recently as MISSING since 2015 yet I feel she is alive and living away from family and police….I do not think like others say she has to be dead being gone that long…I feel she led an early to life reckless way and she had to escape the area…I think she is lost for her reasons not something bad but if anyone here knows that name let the people know who are searching for her as if she died—let them know she is at least alive….

        Marcia, I again am deeply sorry for your losses and how you were treated after the fire- and I hope one day at least you get to see your seeds flourish—

        Happy Summer All-

        • Joy Collura says


          Thank you for your strength and perseverance.

          Gary…remember about my dad and how he died raised red flags…finally since December 2015 the police finally are on the investigation log report for me. Maybe see something…but it made me think of how many in the world who lose someone and do not get the proper assessments or proper closure.

          Recently an author/writer asked me to recollect my 6.30.13 and my account is very public but glad to see them still fact checking…because if it was written as it was asked to me I know wwtktt would be like another book of incorrects…

          I just hope everyone is well and happy. ☺

          A few days back…Tex wanted to break down a 3300sqft barn for the free material at a Cave Creek home and next time I agree to help I will make sure its not 109 degrees out…ouch.

          Nothing yet on my end but I imagine its coming as it usually does near the anniversary of. 6.30.13…seems like that’s when it all happens all over again.

          I came here to ask Wwtktt a question:
          From day one to now what year do you feel showed the most progress in learning about the true parts to not only yhf but to other fires similiar in nature as well.

        • Joy A. Collura says

          Black Label and Lionsgate have not commented on why their distribution agreement collapsed. But informed sources indicated that disagreements on release dates and marketing strategies were factors.
          Sony pictures and Black Label made deal and new release date of Granite Mountain movie is October 20 2017.

          • Joy A Collura says

            I was at a Prescott event yesterday overhearing a firefighter talking about the gmhs trail and how he is so familiar to the entire trail the men hiked so I said “are you talking about the gmhs memorial trail or the staff ride trail or the trail the men took 6.30.13?” He said the memorial park trail is the entire trail the men took 6.30.13 and that is where I asked where he got his source and he said he was there that day so not to embarrass the fella but I asked you know the trail and all the plaques well? And he replied I can tell you where they all are he said. He only knew 5 of the 19 plaques
            and again in wrong order. World, the observation desk is the only known area as we found flagging and that entire gmhs trail is not the way the men were that day 6.30.13 and I know the plaques so well because I have been to area 34 times and I know each men where there plaque is because in reality that was our trail out 6.30.13 except the decline to 89…we went Acri’s way…but I can go blindfolded and still tell you it begins with Eric than Jesse than Clayton than Robert than both Travis’ than Chris than Ashcraft than Joe than Wade than Anthony (he is near where we dropped down to Acri’s) than Garret than Scott than Dustin than Billy than Kevin than John than Grant than Sean…the guy was like why remember where they all were…I said you said you knew the entire park so well yet I guarantee there is not many that know the history and the terrain and the wildlife as much as it is engrained in me and just yesterday a waitress asked how come I tipped $19 on a ten dollar meal and I said thank you for your service but I tip always a dollar for each man who no longer has that opportunity to tip or engage in life as we all do…it is a very sad memory to think this was avoidable in many ways…happy birthday Clayton and in all my travels you all will be remembered as heroes and I am still working on getting stuff out there even though Sonny and I no longer trail…and he is more about building shade areas…cannot blame him when it is about to be 115 to 118 degree weather. I have paused on Ronny McGee and Keely Christabel beaudry culver until after 6.30.13,
            my bday and the 4th of July. Thank you for the tips I got from people reading here. The firefighter also did not know the deployment zone area and where the men took their last breathes. If you are a firefighter and you are taking the trail to honor the men…terrific but if any of you go speaking public at an event be careful who is listening because there is more to the 19 than the steps you took and you brag in the manner you did like you know it all and I am financially invested beyond and I was there and even I do not know it all. I am not bragging but stating facts…I was there and I will always be there and I will not be taken that freedom away as it once was…and the men will always be remembered every day not just 6.30 each year.
            Defensible space education is my number one focus for a lot of people do not know what is really happening across this USA and I will always help to make sure residents cooperate a safer terrain from the way these wildfires are happening…Happy 4th y’all…and Happy Summer Birthdays

            • Joy A Collura says

              Also there is locals hoping chief Ben Palm sees Avondale posting for fire chief n asst for … $100,000 to $150,000…wishful thinking….be nice to see Yarnell gets the fresh start they deserve….

              If he does not see it….there has to be someone who wants $150,000 a year…maybe someone will come out of retirement again?

            • Robert the Second says

              Joy, thanks for posting this about the wanna-be braggart and Poser. It’s a good thing you set him straight and kinda put him in his place, hopefully, in front of others.

  18. Joy A Collura says

    For the bleachers who read this—

    some of the experts who did the interviews on both investigations did not ask the questions you thought would be asked…. I get ya there…

    Some of the entities really do not give a shit about the truth…

    some really wanted to know what are the questions that need to be asked…

    some had no idea where to look for stuff….

    ADOSH was about getting the documents and personnel areas and pay attention to training they had or didn’t have..get all the records…

    so when I finally read your bleacher comment I have to stick up for some of these HUMAN BEINGS assigned to investigate this tragedy…

    what factors were they looking for…

    you see they do not know what you know so it is not like they could ask questions unless they knew what you know…

    there was some predisposed concerns….

    alot of us know the jist so far…why did GMHS take that assignment anyways?

    Noone ever removed the BIAS in this tragedy even to this date-

    None of the people have yet connected to understand the ergonomics of this all…

    In my opinion EVERY person who signed off on a FINAL INVESTIGATION REPORT did the world a great disservice if you felt what you placed out acceptable. I may be offline mainly for 2017 but I want the world to know June and July is going to be very productive months behind the scenes.

    I also want to ask the world if anyone knew about the two year old DEE RONALD MCGEE (Ronnie) found dead over in my area February 10 1942…I am looking for data there— if you have any please call 480.280.5813 or email or a man named “Blackey”…

      • Joy A Collura says

        Diane Lomas says
        MAY 18, 2017 AT 11:33 AM

        Did Marty Cole serve as safety officer for the Yarnell Fire?

        Maybe John Dougherty is detained at the moment Diane to answer you—the answer may be in his article at this link:

        A state dispatcher contacted Marty Cole at 2:24 p.m. and requested that he report to the fire as a safety officer. Cole lives in Chino Valley and faced at least an hourlong drive to reach the incident command center in Peeples Valley.

        As with New Times’ other request of her, Forestry Division public information officer Dennett didn’t respond to e-mails and voicemails requesting information on when Cole and two other safety officers, also requested on the afternoon of June 30, arrived and assumed duties in Yarnell.

        Safety officers are principal advisers to incident commanders in fire-management operations.

        Among safety officers’ primary concerns are extreme fire behavior, escape routes, and safe zones — the exact issues that Granite Mountain discussed but operational chiefs ignored or misunderstood.

        It’s vital to note that a safety officer has authority to override chain of command when an immediate threat to life or risk of serious injury is evident.

        • says

          Reply to Joy about safety officers on the Yarnell Hill Fire,

          So apparently there were about three safety officers including Marty Cole that arrived at the fire on the afternoon of June 30,2013. The reason I inquired about Marty Cole is because with what I was reading it sounded like there was a lack of safety officers on this fire.

          Maybe these officers arrived in the midst of the chaos and didn’t have an opportunity to get ahead of events of that day to be effective?

            • says

              If evidence is produced that that Yarnell Hill Fire was accelerated by artificial means after the initial lightning strike what could be the consequences?

              • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

                Reply to Diane Lomas post on
                May 24, 2017 at 10:21 am

                >> Diane Lomas said…
                >> If evidence is produced that that Yarnell Hill
                >> Fire was accelerated by artificial means after
                >> the initial lightning strike what could be the
                >> consequences?

                That completely depends on the ‘evidence’ itself.

                It also depends on whether any ‘intent’ can be proved.

                In a worst-case scenario ( for whoever might have been ‘accelerating’ the fire and for what reason )… such ‘evidence’ could produce 19 murder charges.

          • says


            Thank you for the link to the article that John Dougherty wrote regarding safety officers on the Yarnell Hill Fire–it did answer my questions and I thought it was an informative article.

            It appears that there were no safety officers on the fire prior to at least 2 pm when things were chaotic.

            The article noted that IF a safety officer had been present earlier they could have requested that when Marsh stated they were moving from the ridge Marsh could have been requested to provide more information and thus the crew may have been stopped from moving off the ridge.

            Interesting statement from Campbell in this article–“they (Granite Mountain) knew the rules were against them when they were going downhill in the green but rules don’t always stop hotshots from attempting to accomplish a mission. The culture of a hotshot crew is a problem-they aren’t one to hold back. They are braver than they ought to be”.

            • says

              I have a thought about the saddle where Granite Mountain descended downward toward Boulder Springs Ranch.

              Is there any evidence that anyone in the hotshot crew resisted taking this route?

              I thought that I saw a photograph earlier of Eric Marsh pointing directly to this path off the two track in front of Jesse Steed as if insisting that he go down there. Maybe not–does anyone have information about this?

              • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

                Reply to Diane Lomas post on
                May 31, 2017 at 2:01 pm

                >> Diane Lomas said…
                >> I have a thought about the saddle where
                >> Granite Mountain descended downward
                >> toward Boulder Springs Ranch.
                >> Is there any evidence that anyone in the
                >> hotshot crew resisted taking this route?

                Yes. Brendan McDonough himself eventually reported to Darrell Willis that he had heard ( over the GM intra-crew radio channel ) what amounts to an ‘argument’ between DIVSA Eric Marsh and acting GM Superintendent Jesse Steed.

                McDonough would later ‘confirm’ this testimony he initially gave to Willis when McDonough was interviewed by Mr. Bill Gabbert of ‘Wildfire Today’.

                Others in a position to know have reported that this argument/discussion referred to by McDonough actually resulted in Jesse Steed basically REFUSING to take GM down to the Boulder Springs Ranch via the route he was being told to take ( through the blind box canyon and unburned fuel )… and that the ‘discussion’ ended when Eric Marsh finally gave Steed a ‘direct order’ to do it… and Steed eventually gave in.

                What has never been fully known is the exact TIME of this ‘discussion/argument’ between Steed and Marsh.

                Did it all take place between about 3:50 PM and 4:04 PM, and BEFORE Granite Mountain ever left the ‘safe black’ and started to head south?

                ** OR ***

                Did it take place only after Jesse Steed ‘arrived’ at what is now known as the ‘Descent Point’ up there on that ‘Saddle’ and Steed finally saw Marsh’s pink ribbons indicating he should take the men down into that unburned fuel in that blind box canyon?

                ** OR **

                Was there a ‘discussion/argument’ in BOTH places?

                Once back at the safe-black, when Steed didn’t think it was a good idea to even attempt the ‘move’ at all… and then ( perhaps ) AGAIN at the ‘Descent Point’ when Steed himself could finally see the insanity he was being asked to commit himself and the men under his charge to?

                We still don’t know.

                No one ( that we know of, including Bill Gabbert ) has ever had the good sense to try and get Brendan to indicate the exact TIME he heard this ‘discussion/argument’ between Steed and Marsh.

                I could understand McDonough not knowing ( himself ) the exact TIME he heard it… but I’m sure he can recall the ‘circumstances’ when he heard it… such as WHERE he was at that moment and WHAT he was doing when he heard it.

                All Brendan has to do is supply the WHERE and the WHAT and his exact whereabouts and and the exact TIME can easily be determined from ‘other evidence’.

                Brendan’s exact whereabouts from the time he left his Lookout Mound to the moment he pulled into the Ranch House Restaurant as part of the ‘Blue Ridge Convoy’ are completely KNOWN, at this point… right down to the minute/second.

                >> Diane Lomas also said…
                >> I thought that I saw a photograph earlier of
                >> Eric Marsh pointing directly to this path off
                >> the two track in front of Jesse Steed as if
                >> insisting that he go down there. Maybe not–does
                >> anyone have information about this?

                I know of no such photograph that is in the ‘public record’.

                Doesn’t mean it doesn’t exist.

                We KNOW there was a massive ‘coverup’ following this tragedy and it is still not clear if even ALL the photographs that might have been recovered from the devices being used by the deceased Granite Mountain Hotshots have ever actually seen the light of day.

                • says


                  This points to the fact that turning down assignments in reality can be very difficult.

                  Apparently Jesse Steed may not have thought that the path down off the two track road through unburned vegetation under current conditions was an acceptable option for his men and may not have been able to adequately advocate for them under the circumstances to protect them

                  • Robert the Second says


                    Or you could go to this post to you from May 26th


                    Yes, turning down assignments for some can be difficult.

                    Jesse Steed definitely thought that the path down off the two track road through unburned vegetation under current conditions was an unacceptable option for his men and most definitely did not adequately advocate for them under the circumstances to protect them; the primary responsibility of every WFF supervisor.

                    He was following the classic deference to authority and using Mitigating (Indirect / Hinting) Speech, most likely from his Marine Corps training and experience.

  19. WantsToKnowTheTruth says

    Reply to rocksteady post on April 21, 2017 at 1:28 pm

    ( Brought up from down below in a thread that was running out of room. )

    >> Rocksteady said…
    >> He ( Air Attack Rory Collins ) suggested ( Lead Plane ‘Bravo 33 ) go
    >> there ( the Yarnell side of the fire ), as an Air Attack has a view
    >> of the fire that the ground forces do not.

    Granted… MOST of the time the ‘conversations’ between the designated ‘Air Attack’ and his/her ‘Lead Plane’ come across sounding like ‘suggestions’…

    …but there are STILL times when the ‘Air Attack’ can/should outright TELL his ‘Lead Plane’ to change the priorities and TELL the ‘Air Support’ under his/her command what to do.

    And that is exactly what happened in Yarnell at 3:50 PM.

    The current/active/designated ‘Air Attack’ ( Rory Collins ) TOLD his ‘Lead Plane’ ( pilot = Thomas French ) to switch priority to the Yarnell side of the fire.

    It was NOT simply a ‘suggestion’.

    Rory Collins told Thomas French ( at exactly 3:50 PM )… “I NEED you to swing down there”.

    That’s as close as you get to an actual ORDER in this confusing pseudo-military style command/control organizational environment.

    Thomas French in ‘Bravo 33’ even SAID ( immediately ) that he was ‘complying’ with that ‘directive’ and was ( immediately ) “headed that way”…

    …but then he did no such thing.

    It took ‘Bravo 33’ another 40 minutes before they even bothered to ‘fly down’ to the Yarnell side to even begin evaluating the situation.

    • says

      Reply to WTKTT’s comment on April 23,2017 at 1:21 pm regarding AA

      Why do you think that AA ignored Rory Collins’ directive to go to the Yarnell side of the fire for an additional 40 minutes after stating that they were basically “on their way” ?

      • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

        Reply to Diane Lomas post on April 24, 2017 at 9:08 am

        >> Diane Lomas said…
        >> Why do you think that AA ignored Rory Collins’ directive to go
        >> to the Yarnell side of the fire for an additional 40 minutes after
        >> stating that they were basically “on their way” ?

        I believe the ‘answer’ is absurdly ( and tragically ) simple.

        I don’t think it had anything to do with any ‘ranchers’ or, indeed, any post-3:50 PM ‘override’ directives that we still may not know about coming from the ground.

        I believe that it all simply had to do with ‘task fixation’.

        Thomas French had been working hard ( as Lead Plane ) guiding retardant drops there on the north side of the fire for some time prior to 3:50 PM.

        He had been ‘laying retardant lines’ in both the Model Creek Road and the Miner’s Camp Road area(s).

        But circa 3:50 PM… he had not ‘completed’ that task to his own satisfaction.

        As the Air-To-Air channel recordings do indicate… he ( himself ) was concerned about a ‘gap’ that still existed between the east end of the retardant line in the Miner’s Camp Road area and the west end of the retardant line in the Model Creek Road area.

        He wanted to ‘connect the dots’ and JOIN those two retardant lines together.

        He was in the process of lining up some drops to do that very thing at 3:50 PM, when Air Attack Rory Collins called on the radio and told hm “We’ve got a heck of a lot of fire headed straight for Yarnell” and Collins then TOLD French he NEEDED to “swing around” and go to the south side of the fire.

        French acknowledged that ‘directive’ at 3:50 PM and said (quote) “We’re headed that way”.

        He received permission from Collins to do one more SEAT drop there on the north end of the fire ( since that is what he was about to do when Collins called on the radio )… and both Collins and French AGREED that both the on-scene and the incoming VLATs should then be immediately put to use on the Yarnell side of the fire.

        But then Air Attack Rory Collins left the Yarnell airspace just 8 minutes later, at 3:58 PM.

        Thomas French then ignored everything he had agreed to with Collins at 3:50, and he proceeded to use ALL the available air tankers in an effort to ‘finish up’ that retardant line project on the north side… even though the wind had already drastically changed and the actual threat on the north side had abated.

        According to the Air-To-Air radio channel recordings… it was only when Thomas French became ‘happy’ with the way those retardant lines came out on the north side that he even bothered to try and head to the Yarnell side of the fire.

        So what I ‘think’ is that the answer is tragically simple.

        Thomas French got ‘anal retentive’ and ‘task fixated’ about that ‘gap’ between his retardant lines on the north side and when Collins left the airspace and he then felt free to do whatever the fuck HE wanted to do… HE decided to use ALL the available tankers just to ‘fill in the gap’ between his two little retardant lines.

        He thought he had the TIME for that kind of ‘task fixation’… and he went right about making HIMSELF happy with how that ‘project’ on the north side looked before ever starting to even turn his attention to the Yarnell side.

        TIME was the ‘enemy’ circa 3:50 PM… but French either didn’t realize that or simply didn’t care.

            • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

              Yes. That is ( and always has been ) possible.

              But there is no ‘evidence’ that is what was going down that afternoon.

              It really does look like the ‘decision’ to ‘stay’ task-fixated on the north end of the fire ( even though the real threat there had abated and the real ’emergency’ was on the opposite end of the fire ) took place inside the ‘Bravo 33’ aircraft itself. Occupants were Thomas French, John Burfiend and trainee Clint Cross.

              French was the actual ‘pilot’… so that plane did nothing unless it was French’s decision or something he was in agreement with.

              • rocksteady says

                Did the original Air Attack know that GMIHS was seeking black ops through unburned fuel to the Boulder Springs bombproof ranch? Did he tell the Air Attack taking over this?

                If its no to either or both, you can not blame the Bravo 33 crew for completing an assignment. All they knew was GMIHS was supposedly in the black hunkering down…. Even with the fire transitioning to the South, if they were not told before hand that Granite was gonna be in there, how would you hold them accountable for not going to the South? From the air it would look like the fire is turning to the South, driven by the Wind, evacs were complete and retardant drops would have done sweet nothing to prevent the homes from burning. Lost Cause.

                • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

                  Reply to rocksteady post on
                  May 4, 2017 at 12:36 pm

                  >> rocksteady asked…
                  >> Did the original Air Attack know that
                  >> GMIHS was seeking black ops through
                  >> unburned fuel to the Boulder Springs
                  >> bombproof ranch?

                  In what timeframe?

                  SIDENOTE: By ‘original Air Attack’ I’m assuming you are referring to Air Attack Rory Collins, who left the Yarnell airspace at 3:58 PM because his pilot was ‘timing out’ on the maximum hours he/she was allowed to fly that day.

                  ADOSH was never allowed to interview Rory Collins.

                  The following SAIT members DID ‘interview’ Collins just 13 days after the tragedy, at 11:00 AM on July 13, 2013…

                  SAIT Co-Lead Jim Karels ( Florida State Forester )
                  SAIT Co-Lead Mike Dudley ( US Forestry employee )
                  SAIT support person Jimmy Rocha
                  SAIT support person Jay Kurth

                  …but in the few ‘notes’ that have ever been published from that SAIT interview there is NOTHING to indicate Air Attack Rory Collins knew that Granite Mountain had ever left the ‘safe black’, or were even ‘planning’ to do any such foolish thing.

                  But that stands to reason… since Air Attack Rory Collins did, in fact, have to leave the Yarnell airspace at 3:58 PM.

                  The SAIT says GM didn’t actually leave the ‘safe black’ until right after Wade Parker’s final photo taken at the ‘rest spot’ location at 4:04 PM. ( 6 minutes AFTER Collins left the Yarnell airspace ).

                  At exactly 3:50:08 PM, OPS1 Todd Abel is heard telling Eric Marsh ( directly )…

                  “Okay… I copy… ah… just keep me updated… ah… ya know… you guys hunker and be safe and then… ah… we’ll get some air support down there ASAP.”

                  SIDENOTE: We still do NOT know what OPS1 Todd Abel’s “Okay, I copy” was about at the start of that audio clip captured by Robert Caldwell. Abel was obviously ‘acknowledging’ some other piece of ‘information’ that Eric Marsh had just given him… but we still don’t know what Marsh had just told Abel at that point. It remains possible that Marsh had, in fact, just informed Abel that he had every intention of bringing GM out of the safe black and down to the Boulder Springs Ranch… and when OPS1 Abel then said “hunker and be safe” he meant “Once you get to that RANCH”. OPS1 Todd Abel testified that he recalls NOTHING about this recorded conversation he obviously had with Eric Marsh at exactly 3:50:08 PM.

                  The 3:50:08 conversation between OPS1 Todd Abel and DIVSA Eric Marsh lasted exactly 12 seconds, and ended at exactly 3:50:20 PM.

                  Exactly 16 seconds later, at 3:50:36 PM, is when we hear Air Attack Rory Collins telling his ‘Lead Plane’ ( pilot = Thomas French ) that there had been a “heck of a wind shift”, and that there was now “a lot of fire headed towards Yarnell” and that they ( Bravo 33 ) should immediately “swing around and take a look at that”.

                  And at exactly 3:50:56 PM… ‘Lead Plane’ pilot Thomas French acknowledged that ‘directive’ from his current ‘Air Attack’ and said “Copy… we’re headed that way”.

                  At no time during that 3:50:36 PM to 3:51:03 radio exchange on the A2A channel between Air Attack Rory Collins and his ‘Lead Plane’ pilot Thomas French is there any mention or discussion of ‘Granite Mountain’.

                  >> rocksteady also asked…
                  >> Did he tell the Air Attack taking over this?

                  See above. There is absolutely nothing on any A2A radio channel recording which shows that Air Attack Rory Collins ever mentioned ‘Granite Mountain’ to his Lead Plane pilot ‘Thomas French’.

                  The closest we get is that during that 3:50:36 PM when Collins told French to switch priority to the Yarnell side of the fire… Collins DID mention Eric Marsh ( indirectly ).

                  Right after French ‘acknowledged’ the ‘directive’ from Collins to head to Yarnell with “Copy… we’re headed that way”… Rory Collins then simply informed French that the person to ‘contact’ once French flew down to that side of the fire was ‘Division Alpha’ ( Eric Marsh )…

                  What Collins actually said to French ( at exactly 3:50:58 PM ) was…

                  “Ground contact out there… ahhh… I was talkin’ to… Alpha”

                  Then French responded/acknowledged by saying…

                  <i""Ground Contact Alpha"

                  But there was no mention of ‘Granite Mountain’ or that there were any ‘Hotshot’ crews working that end of the fire at all.

                  >> rocksteady also said…
                  >> If its no to either or both, you can not blame
                  >> the Bravo 33 crew for completing an assignment.

                  You seem to be equating whether or not ‘Air Support’ was fully aware some Hotshot crew was ‘moving’ to whether or not there was any reason for ‘Air Support’ to feel any sense of ‘importance’ and switch their priority to the Yarnell/Glen Ilah side of the fire.

                  What about the TOWN(S)… and the PEOPLE in them?

                  See above.

                  Air Attack Rory Collins is recorded TELLING his ‘Lead Plane’ to switch focus to the Yarnell / Glen Ilah side of the fire because THAT is where the FIRE was now heading… and he ( Collins ) felt that was certainly a good enough reason ( all by itself ) to give his ‘Lead Plane’ that directive at 3:50:36 PM.

                  >> rocksteady also said…
                  >> All they knew was GMIHS was supposedly
                  >> in the black hunkering down….

                  If by ‘they’… you mean Thomas French, John Burfiend and Clint Cross ( the occupants of aircraft ‘Bravo 33’ )… then it is still a mystery what they did or didn’t know about the status of ‘Granite Mountain’ at any time from 3:50 PM onward.

                  Again… there was NO MENTION of ‘Granite Mountain’ ( or any other Hotshot crew or ground resource ) when Air Attack Rory Collins gave French the ‘directive’ to switch his focus to the Yarnell / Glen Ilah side of the fire.

                  There is also still the ongoing controversy about whether or not ‘Bravo 33’ ever ‘flew down to check on them’.

                  Thomas French and John Burfiend testified that ( at some still-unknown time ) it was THEY who called OPS1 Todd Abel on the Air-To-Ground channel and it was THEY who were asking HIM whether they should do a ‘full stop’ and go ‘check’ on some ‘crew’ they thought they heard was ‘headed to a safety’ zone.

                  They ( French and Burfiend ) testified it was OPS1 Todd Abel ( not Air Attack Rory Collins ) who then informed them that it was just ‘Granite Mountain’… and they were ‘in the safe black’… and so NO… there was NO NEED for them ( French and Burfiend ) to ‘fly down there’ to check on anyone at all.

                  But OPS1 Todd Abel testified it was the exact OPPOSITE.

                  OPS1 Todd Able testified that HE was the one who CALLED ‘Bravo 33’ and ASKED them ‘go check on Granite Mountain’… and then they DID…. and reported back to Abel that GM was, in fact, ‘in the safe black’.

                  So which is it?

                  Did ‘Bravo 33’ ( French, Burfiend and Cross ) ever actually DO that ‘safety check’ on GM that Abel swears they did?

                  We still don’t know.

                  Someone on either side of that ‘testimony’ is ( and always has been ) LYING about what really did ( or didn’t ) happen there.

                  • says


                    Thank you for providing more details about AA’s information and what is known about communication between AA and Granite Mountain.

                    As we seek access to the Air to Ground communications on 6/30/2013 it is helpful to know a little more about that afternoon.

                    I don’t understand how so much of this information is held in private. Initially I thought that criminal charges could be brought against personnel if facts were revealed as to what happened but as I believe you pointed out that may not be the case so how can people withhold facts that will bring clarity to this situation?

                    Lying and protecting reputations is unacceptable.

                  • Robert the Second says


                    You posted: “It remains possible that Marsh had, in fact, just informed Abel that he had every intention of bringing GM out of the safe black and down to the Boulder Springs Ranch… and when OPS1 Abel then said “hunker and be safe” HE MEANT ONCE YOU GET TO THAT RANCH.” (EMPHASIS ADDED) OPS1 Todd Abel testified that he recalls NOTHING about this recorded conversation he obviously had with Eric Marsh at exactly 3:50:08 PM.”

                    I disagree. Abel was telling him/them to “hunker and be safe” right where they were, in the good black.

                    • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

                      Reply to Robert the Second ( RTS ) post
                      on May 6, 2017 at 9:02 pm

                      >> RTS said…
                      >> I disagree. Abel was telling him/them
                      >> to “hunker and be safe” right where
                      >> they were, in the good black.

                      That has always been the most accepted ‘assumption’… but the truth is… we don;t really know that for sure.

                      At exactly 3:50:08 PM, when Robert Caldwell captured only that 12 second long exchange between OPS1 Todd Abel and DIVSA Eric Marsh… you can hear Marsh ‘breathing hard’ as if he was walking along petty fast… and it’s pretty much accepted now that by 3:50 PM, Marsh was, in fact, already ‘scouting ahead’ to the Boulder Springs ranch.

                      If Marsh had left that ‘rest spot’ area circa 3:40 PM, when he learned that Brian Frisby was NOT going to continue on up to the saddle for that ‘face-to-face’ Marsh had requested… then 10 minutes later ( at 3:50 PM ) Marsh was probably almost to ( or already at ) the spot now known as the ‘Descent Point’.

                      Marsh might have actually already began his ‘descent’ into the fuel-filled blind box canyon and that is the explanation for his recorded statement to OPS Abel… “I’m makin’ my way off the top”.

                      So either Marsh really did tell OPS1 Todd Abel exactly what he was doing and exactly what his intentions were ( to bring GM down to the Boulder Springs Ranch ) during the parts of that 3:50 PM exchange, or he did not.

                      If he did NOT tell OPS1 Abel exactly what he was doing at that moment, and exactly what he meant by <"I'm makin' my way off the top"… then Marsh was intentionally LYING to OPS1 Todd Abel during that 3:50 PM radio exchange.

                      It remains possible that Marsh was NOT ‘lying’ during that conversation… and that OPS1 Todd Abel was now informed exactly what the ‘plan’ was… and all we hear Abel telling Marsh was “Okay… I copy ( about the plan )”… and then telling Marsh to ‘hunker and be safe’ once reaching that ranch ‘safety zone’.

                      It remains non-credible that OPS1 Todd Abel doesn’t ‘recall’ that 3:50 PM conversation with Marsh… or any additional details.

                    • says


                      The fact that Todd Abel does not recall the 3:50 pm conversation with Marsh is troubling—-it gives the impression that he (Abel) is not being truthful and is hiding information.

                    • Robert the Second says


                      Hearken back to this post regarding stress, multitasking, and tunnel vision on sight and sound regarding your comment.


                      Here is another link to an article on similar matters regarding memory under stress.


                      I am somewhat ambivalent on what he says regarding this, however, I will say that whenever a Hot Shot Crew Superintendent tells you they are “in good black” you tend to believe them AND you just chock that away in the back of your mind that they are in a safe place, so you can focus on other matters.

                      Marsh, on the other hand, was know to be disingenuous and less than truthful at times.

                    • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

                      Reply to Diane Lomas post on
                      May 15, 2017 at 10:48 am

                      >> Diane Lomas said…
                      >> Just had a thought about litigation—-
                      >> Are air attack and forestry departments
                      >> both subject to litigation?

                      Just about anyone is ‘subject to litigation’.

                      ‘Any dispute’ can end up ‘in litigation’.

                      Even ‘US Forestry’.

                      Example: The reason the ‘Aerial Firefighting Study’ ( AFUE ) was even taking place that day in Yarnell is because US Forestry LOST ‘litigation’ that had been brought against it and a JUDGE ‘ordered’ them to do such a study.

                      US Forestry had ALSO been ordered ( by a JUDGE, in court ) to do an ‘Environmental’ study when it was proven that US Forestry had been dropping retardant for YEARS without having ANY idea what it impact it was having on the environment… or people.

                      So yea… just about anything can be ‘litigated’, at some point.

                      From ‘The Free Dictionary’…
                      Litigation ( noun )

                      An action brought in court to enforce a particular right. The act or process of bringing a lawsuit in and of itself; a judicial contest; any dispute.

                    • says


                      The answer that you provided about litigation for air attack and the Forestry Dept. seemed to apply more to the Forestry Dept than air attack.

                      Does air attack have more latitude with their decisions?

                    • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

                      Reply to Diane Lomas post on
                      May 16, 2017 at 10:18 am

                      >> Diane Lomas said…
                      >> Does air attack have more latitude with
                      >> their decisions?

                      According to the WFFs who have been posting to this discussion ( some of whom have actual ‘Air Attack’ background and experience )… the answer is ‘yes”.

                      ‘Air Attack’ has a GREAT deal of ‘latitude’ with regard to ‘decision making’… including not really ever being REQUIRED to do anything at all with regards to request ‘coming from the ground’.

                      And that probably is as it should be.

                      Only the ‘flyboys’ themselves know what it is ( or is not ) possible to do at any given moment while flying a fire.

                      Ground forces might ‘request’ things all day long… but only the guys/gals in the air know the capabilities of the aircrafts, and whether something can be done ‘safely’.

                • says


                  When you say that “evacs were complete” were you referring to evacuations in Yarnell?

                  My information is that evacuations were not complete in Yarnell leaving most of the town’s residents vulnerable to the approaching fire.

                  • rocksteady says

                    Sorry, I meant to say that the evacs were underway, by another resource assigned to do it, so why would Granite head there to do it? There is video showing the other resource getting people out..

                    • says

                      I am not sure why another resource assigned to Yarnell did not take care of evacuations but by all accounts that I know of it did not go smoothly with the assigned resource and it appears that Granite Mountain was called upon to assist with this.

                    • rocksteady says

                      Diane Lomas says
                      “I am not sure why another resource assigned to Yarnell did not take care of evacuations but by all accounts that I know of it did not go smoothly with the assigned resource and it appears that Granite Mountain was called upon to assist with this.”

                      You are assuming that Granite was asked to do this, however in all of the documentation by Abel et al, they all deny ever asking Granite to do this….

                      SO, we have 2 options:

                      A) Abel et al are lying under oath
                      B) Granite went rogue and paid the price.

                      Someday, maybe someday, the truth about which option really occurred will be known.

                    • says

                      Wasn’t Granite Mountain called to help in the Yarnell area when they were in the black?

                      Asked if they could spare resources by maybe Musser?

                      First time they were asked they declined but later agreed.

                    • Robert the Second says


                      You posted: “Wasn’t Granite Mountain called to help in the Yarnell area when they were in the black?”

                      Yes, Yarnell Structure Protection Specialist Cordes requested them through OPS, OPS then requested them through DVIS A??, and he / they said they were “committed to the black, send BRHS, they’re already there.”

                      WTKTT can cite chapter and verse of the above.

                      “First time they were asked they declined but later agreed.”

                      I agree with the first half (see above) and disagree with the second half.

                      Yes, they declined, however, they did not “later agree,” but instead left without informing and/or advising anyone (OPS, AA, Adjoining Forces, etc.) because of their habit of being disingenuous and coy.

                      Moreover, they had been “discussing our options” for hours that day on the GMHS Crew Net about whether to remain in the black or whether to leave the black and reroute elsewhere, likely the BSR.

                      In other words, they had basically planned on leaving, and as usual, they just didn’t want anyone to know their intentions, what they were doing, where they were going, etc.

        • says

          I could understand AA taking the time to complete one more seat drop that he and Collins agreed to but after that no.
          His supervisor had given him a directive which he acknowledged so until we can obtain more records I think that we will need to agree to disagree on this WTKTT.

          • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

            Diane Lomas says

            Reply to Diane Lomas post on April 26, 2017 at 11:01 am

            >> Diane Lomas said…
            >> I could understand AA taking the time to complete one
            >> more seat drop that he and Collins agreed to but after
            >> that no.

            I agree.

            >> Diane Lomas also said…
            >> His supervisor had given him a directive which he
            >> acknowledged so until we can obtain more records
            >> I think that we will need to agree to disagree on this WTKTT.

            Just to be clear… I was in no way ‘justifying’ what happened by proposing the ‘explanation’ above.

            You asked me WHY I thought there was a 40 minute delay, and based on the available evidence ( including all the Air-To-Air radio channel recordings ) I think the ‘task fixation’ scenario is the most likely ‘explanation’.

            I also believe Rory Collins failed to make it CRYSTAL CLEAR to his ‘Lead Plane’ that the situation had risen to the level of an ’emergency’.

            I think Collins should have said ( over the radio ) something more along the lines of…

            “The wind has shifted drastically, and we’ve now got a heck of a lot of fire headed straight for Yarnell. If there’s any chance of protecting anything down on that end of the fire we have to do it NOW… before we lose the chance. So you NEED to head down there RIGHT NOW. Do you COPY?”

            • rocksteady says

              “The wind has shifted drastically, and we’ve now got a heck of a lot of fire headed straight for Yarnell. If there’s any chance of protecting anything down on that end of the fire we have to do it NOW… before we lose the chance. So you NEED to head down there RIGHT NOW. Do you COPY?”…..

              and he should have added….

              “and I think those Granite boys have left their safe zone and are going black ops to get to the damn ranch, which is bomb proof by the way…”……

              • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

                Reply to rocksteady post on
                May 4, 2017 at 12:38 pm

                >> rocksteady said…
                >> and he should have added….
                >> “and I think those Granite boys have left their
                >> safe zone and are going black ops to get to
                >> the damn ranch, which is bomb proof by the way…”……

                The SAIT says that Granite Mountian ‘Gaggled up’ and left the safe black circa 4:04 PM. They were basing that solely on an assumption that Wade Parker took a ‘photo’ at the ‘rest spot’ at 4:04 PM… but that has never actually been the case.

                Yes… Wade Parker’s ( final ) text message to his mother WAS sent at 4:04 PM… but the photograph attached to it was onethat he ( Parker ) actually took 13 minutes earlier, at 3:51 PM.

                It still remains possible that GM had ALREADY ‘gaggled up’ and were ALREADY ‘heading south’ circa 4:04 PM… and Wade Parker simply sent that final ‘text’ to his mother while they were ALREADY ‘hiking south’ and towards the Boulder Springs Ranch.

                But either way… Air Attack Rory Collins really did leave the Yarnell airspace at 3:58 PM, and there is still no indication that Air Atack Rory Collins himself was ever aware that ‘Granite Mountain’ had already ( or even had any plans to ) “leave the safe black”.

                When Air Attack Rory Collins called his ‘Lead Plane’ ( pilot = Thomas French ) at exactly 3:50:36 PM and TOLD him to switch the attention of Air Support to the Yarnell / Glen Ilah side of the fire… it was because that is where the FIRE was now HEADED… and they were going to quickly lose any ‘window of opportunity’ to even try and protect anything down there unless they shifted the focus RIGHT THEN ( at 3:50 PM ).

                According to the Air-To-Air radio channel recordings… Collins’ directive to his ‘Lead Plane’ to switch the focus of Air Support to the Yarnell / Glen Ilah side of the fire had NOTHING to do with ‘Granite Mountain’.

          • says

            Reply to WTKTT’s comment on May 7 ,2017 at 9:02 p.m.:

            Did Marsh tell Todd Able that he was bringing Granite Mountain to Boulder Springs Ranch?

            I think it is more likely that Marsh did tell Able what he was doing and what his intentions were (to being Granite Mountain to Boulder Springs Ranch)

            OPS Able doesnt recall that 3:50 p.m. conversation with Marsh yet Able is heard saying “ok I copy that about the plan” (Hail Mary Plan)

            I think that Able’s statements regarding the 3:50 pm conversation on 6/30/2013 are unbelievable and that he was involved in the planing and execution of “the Hail Mary Plan”

            • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

              The 3:50:08 PM Robert Caldwell recording ( which only lasts for 12 seconds, as far as we know ) BEGINS with DIVSA ( Eric Marsh ) FINISHING a ‘status report’ to OPS1 ( Todd Abel ).

              We do NOT here the ‘full report’ that Marsh was supplying at that time.

              We ONLY hear the LAST SENTENCE of that ‘report’ when Marsh finishes with the sentence “…I’m workin’ my way off the top”.

              That is when Todd Abel replies with just…

              ” Okay… I copy”.

              He does NOT mention a plan… Abut his “I copy” WAS in response to everything Marsh had just reported to him.

              • WantsToKnowTheTruth says


                Since we only hear 12 seconds from that 3:50:08 PM radio conversation between OPS1 Todd Abel and DIVSA Eric Marsh… it may NOT have been just a ‘status report’ coming from Marsh to Abel.

                There is no telling how LONG that ‘conversation’ really was… or what was really fully exchanged between those two men.

                The SAIT actually ‘played’ those 12 seconds out of that full ‘conversation’ for OPS1 Todd Abel when he was interviewed.

                Todd Abel actually ‘confirmed’ that was him talking to Eric Marsh in that 12 second video ( recorded by now-deceased GM Hotshot Robert Caldwell )… but then Abel testified that he absolutely doesn’t recall ever having that conversation with Marsh… or what ELSE they discussed.

                That has always been ( and remains ) non-credible.

      • says

        Just saw news headline about the proposed Rosemont Copper mine in the Santa Rita mountains near Tucson——-

        “US Forest Service is poised to sign one of the two federal permits needed for a giant mile wide open pit copper mine in Arizona”

        • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

          From a study done by the Massachusetts Institute of Technology ( MIT )…

          Environmental Damages of Mining

          Open pit mining

          Open pit mining, where material is excavated from an open pit, is one of the most common forms of mining for strategic minerals. This type of mining is particularly damaging to the environment because strategic minerals are often only available in small concentrations, which increases the amount of ore needed to be mined.

          Environmental hazards are present during every step of the open-pit mining process. Hardrock mining exposes rock that has lain unexposed for geological eras. When crushed, these rocks expose radioactive elements, asbestos-like minerals, and metallic dust. During separation, residual rock slurries, which are mixtures of pulverized rock and liquid, are produced as tailings, toxic and radioactive elements from these liquids can leak into bedrock if not properly contained.

      • Joy A. Collura says

        John doesn’t realize how those countries operate or else he does and has a lot more bravery than I do. I was married to a lady who’s father was a high official in another country and at that time Tito Herra was president of the state of Chihuahua and it was well known that certain parties and drug operations were protected. This situation extends to all Latin American countries. If a mining company pays off the right officials they can operate carte blanche. We listened to your interview John and your looking at that kind if influence you run a high risk being IN those countries and exposing the crony system there. It is not much difference on the 19 and its aftermath. There is a book on a guy…Irish man…that worked against the rubber industry that was into murder and so forth…he exposed a bunch of English influence that gave more importance to profit vs human lives…he eventually got hung…he was hired by the English to investigate their own companies…so be careful John exposing these assholes…we still have Yarnell and the other fires to do. Smiles.
        The above is a statement from Tex Gilligan on Joy’s cell.
        Joy: remember the Peru/Chile/Argentina…alike protected the Nazis…they were the safe haven for the German Nazis.
        A lot of buy offs in the universe.
        You are in our prayers.
        Peru is rough in false arrests….stay safe.

  20. WantsToKnowTheTruth says

    Reply to Diane Lomas post on April 14, 2017 at 3:18 pm

    >> Diane Lomas said…
    >> CELL PHONE Communications on YHF:
    >> I cannot understand why phone records haven’t been obtained from 6/30/2013.

    Some of them were.

    ADOSH obtained the cellphone ‘call records’ for Darrell Willis for the entire year of 2013… up to and including June 30, 2013.

    ADOSH also requested the same records for Eric Marsh… but even though Marsh was being paid a stipend by the City of Prescott for his cellphone and the City of Prescott consequently had every right to request his cellphone records… they refused to do so and told ADOSH that if they wanted Eric Marsh’s cellphone records they would have to get them via his widow… Amanda Marsh.

    There is no other information in the public evidence record about whether ADOSH requested and/or obtained the cellphone records of anyone else… but there IS a document which proves that Jim Karels of the Arizona Forestry SAIT investigation requested not only the ‘call records’… but the actual RTT ( Range To Tower ) packet history for up to 26 different Yarnell-related cellphone numbers.

    See below for a copy of that actual document.

    >> Diane Lomas also said…
    >> Even in the case of cell phones being destroyed in the fire and elsewhere I thought
    >> it was possible to recover the records.

    It is ( and was ).

    The Arizona Counter-Terrorism Information Center ( ACTIC ) was given all the phones that were recovered from the deployment site… except for Eric Marsh’s, which mysteriously ‘disappeared’ from the Coroner’s office after having been removed from his front short pocket at the start of his autopsy.

    They ( ACTIC ) were the ones who recovered most of the ‘data’ from most of the phones. Many of the ‘photographs’ they recovered became part of the public evidence record… but none of the ‘other data’ ( like call histories ) ever did.

    Rest assured… ACTIC doesn’t just ‘scrape’ smartphones just to find ‘pictures’.

    If they are able to recover ‘photos’… then they were also able to ‘recover’ everything else from that phone and that ‘data’ was most assuredly delivered back to Arizona Forestry on the same hard-drive containing the recovered ‘pictures’ and ‘videos’.

    No one seems to know whatever happened to those actual hard drives that were used to contain the full ‘data’ recovered from those smartphones.

    All Jim Karels and Mike Dudley and Randy Okon and the rest of the SAIT ever ‘published’ were whatever photos or videos they ‘chose’ to.

    >> Diane Lomas also said…
    >> Isn’t this accomplished by law enforcement agencies in criminal situations?

    Yes. See above.

    If you ask ACTIC to ‘scrape’ a phone… they give you EVERYTHING ( Call Logs and Call History and Browser Cache/History data included ).

    >> Diane Lomas also said…
    >> How can this information be obtained? FOIAs?

    If you are using a phone that is being paid for with taxpayer dollars… then yes… a ‘Freedom of Information Act’ request can be used to obtain call records.

    This is why the City of Prescott HAD to supply ADOSH with ALL of Darrell Willis’ cellphone records when asked to do so. Darrell Willis was using a ‘company phone’, totally paid for with tax dollars from the City of Prescott.

    For ‘personal phones’… then you have to either be the owner/subscriber to obtain the records… OR part of a legal ‘investigation’ ( and not necessarily just a ‘criminal’ investigation.

    Both the SAIT and ADOSH would have had the ‘authority’ to obtain the call records of pretty much anyone they wanted to… even if it had taken some back-and-forth with some lawyers to get it done.

    >> On April 20, 2017 at 11:00 am, Diane Lomas said…
    >> In videos firefighters can be heard asking for Musser’s cell phone number.

    Yes. In one of the Aaron Hulburd videos filmed right there in the parking lot of the Shrine of St. Joseph… we actually SEE and HEAR newly arrived Safety Officer Tony Sciacca placing a cellphone call to ( apparently ) Arizona Forestry’s Russ Shumate just to ASK Shumate for Paul Musser’s cellphone number.

    The transcript of that part of that video is as follows…

    Video length: 28.512 seconds

    NOTE: As the video starts… Safety Officer Tony Sciacca is out of his truck and walking around right where the pavement of Shrine road ends there at the St. Joseph Shrine parking lot. He has just called someone named ‘Russ’ with his cellphone and he is going to ask ‘Russ’ for Paul Musser’s new cellphone number. This is most likely ‘Russ Shumate’… the ICT4 in Yarnell on Saturday who also knows Paul Musser.

    Safety Officer Tony Sciacca: ( talking on his cellphone )
    Hey Russ… Tony Sciacca… how are ya, brother?
    Hey… I’m lookin’ for Paul Musser’s phone number. I’m in a pinch and I… I had his old number but I don’t have his new number. Do you hav… can you text it to me?
    Please. I really need it bad right ’bout now.

    Safety Officer Tony Sciacca: Thanks. Bye.


    >> Diane Lomas also asked…
    >> Where are these records?
    >> Some of these cell phone conversations must contain vital information about
    >> what was occurring on the fire and may prevent a future disaster.

    Agreed… but if you are talking about ‘conversations’… it is not likely the carriers themselves were ‘recording’ any of the actual ‘conversations’ themselves.

    ( Notice I said “not likely”. These days… who the hell knows ).

    As Edward Snowden has let us all know… the National Security Agency ( NSA ) can ( and DOES ) do that anytime they simply ‘feel’ like doing it… but even though the NSA has plenty of taxpayer dollars ( actual NSA budget is, of course, classified, but in 2013 it was estimated at around $10.8 billion )… and plenty of ‘juice’ ( the NSA facility in Fort Meade, Maryland is the largest single consumer of ‘electricity’ in the entire State of Maryland )… even they still don’t have the ‘disk space’ to be recording every freakin’ cellphone conversation.

    Even THEY only record the ones they simply want/need to.

    If you decide to run for public office… and you end up hiring people to run your campaign who turn out to be unregistered ‘foreign agents’ and/or actively being recruited as Russian spies… then YEA… don’t be surprised ‘down the road’ to discover that at some point some donut-eating tech at NSA was told to ‘throw the switch’ and start ‘recording’ you…

    …but a bunch of firefighters just working some wildfire somewhere?… not likely.


    Just 11 days after the tragedy of June 30, 2013, newly established SAIT Co-Leader Jim Karels sent a FAX request directly to Verizon Wireless asking them to ‘preserve’ the cellular network call/location records ( RTTs ) for 26 different cellphone numbers.

    The actual cellphone numbers listed in the FAX request were all REDACTED in the copy of the FAX request that Arizona Forestry eventually released.

    A copy of this FAX request to Verizon is the second page ( PDF page 2 ) of a document in the public evidence record named…

    “A01-A04 – ASF000001 – INV to 80INV.pdf”

    It is sitting in this Folder in the public evidence record…

    Dropbox / AZ Forestry Division Investigation / Correspondence

    It is the only PDF document in the ‘Correspondence’ Folder that was part of the original Arizona Forestry SAIT investigation records dump.

    Here is a TEXT version of that same document ( including the 26 REDACTED cellphone numbers )…


    To: Verizon Wireless
    From: Jim Karels, SAI Team Leader
    Date: July 11, 2013

    The Arizona State Forester has delegated authority to me to lead a Serious Accident Investigation into the deaths of 19 firefighters on the Yarnell Hill Fire. In that capacity, I am requesting preservation of the RTTs for the following cell phone numbers from 1300 to 1645 ( 1:00 pm to 4:45 pm ) on June 30, 2013.


    If you have questions, you may contact me at 850-228-7763 or Randy Okon at 406-531-1570.

    Thank you for your assistance in this matter.

    Signed: Jim Karels

    The ‘RTTs’ that Jim Karels was asking Verizon to ‘preseve’ are MORE than just the ‘call records’ ( who was talking to who and when ) for a Verizon cellphone.

    RTT stands for ‘Range To Tower’.

    Every time you use your cellphone ( to either call or text ), the ‘Range To Tower’ information is also being ‘recorded’ as part of your call history.

    This RTT ‘history’ can, in fact, be used to LOCATE your exact position at the time you were either making a call or sending a text.

    It has nothing to do with GPS. These ‘Range To Tower’ packets existed before they even started putting actual GPS chips into smartphones, and even with your GPS turned OFF… the RTT information can be used to pinpoint your location.

    So Jim Karels was obviously interested in not only the basic ‘who was talking to who when’ call record information. He was obviously curious whether any of the RTT information for any of the cellphones used by any of the Granite Mountain Hotshots might be able to ‘fill in some blanks’ about exactly where they WERE that afternoon… and WHEN.

    Verizon used to only preserve the full ‘RTT’ information on any particular cellphone number for 7 days… but they changed that prior to 2013 and now preserve that information for ( supposedly ) only 30 days.

    Jim Karels’ FAX request to Verizon was just 11 days after June 30, so the RTTs for all 26 numbers should have been still available.

    There is no document in the SAIT evidence folder which shows any ‘response’ from ‘Verizon’ to this request… of if any of the ‘data’ was ever supplied back to the SAIT.

    • WantsToKnowTheTruth says



      An interesting ( and informative ) document.

      The same RTTs that SAIT Co-Lead Jim Karels was requesting from Verizon for 26 different cellphone numbers would be known as PCMDs on the Sprint network… or simply ‘Activity Logs’ on the T-Mobile network.

      Law and Order – Cellphone Analysis – Part 2

      From that document…
      Historical Tracking

      Cell Site Analysis (CSA) is the science of reconstructing the physical movements of a mobile phone or communication device. The evidence from this advanced investigation can attribute contact between individuals, indicate proximity to a crime scene, define patterns of movement of suspects, and confirm or dispute alibi statements.

      To perform a Cell Site Analysis, you have to understand how cell towers are built and operate.

      Most (but not all) cell towers are three-sided. On each of these sides, there are three panels. The middle panel is the transmitter, while the outer panels are the receivers. The two outside panels “listen” for inbound signals. Something like how our two ears compare slight differences in sound to determine location and direction of movement, these two outside panels do the same. This allows a smooth hand-off from tower to tower when the caller is mobile.

      Each tower has three directional antennas. A directional antenna receives signals with more intensity from the direction it is pointed. It filters this, versus signals it receives from directions outside its field.

      Cell Site Analysis

      The Cell Site Analysis (CSA) starts with a court order or search warrant requesting call detail records with the cell tower that were used doing the call. The CSA, with information from particular tower locations, will tell you what parts of the city you are in but not what street you are on. For most investigations, knowing the handset was in a general area—and could not have been in another area—is enough to confirm or deny an alibi about a date, time, location.

      The CSA will only allow an investigator to state the call was from an area covered by the cell tower, not a single address. That means it is better suited to eliminate alibi locations than to prove the handset was in one specific house or block.

      However, some pretty strong inferences can be made based on the CSA and how towers work. Most towers are divided into three 120-degree sides. (Some are six 60-degree sides.) Depending on the cellular service provider who operates the cell tower, these sectors will be identified as 1,2,3; A,B,C; Alpha, Beta, Gamma for a beam width of 120-degree coverage tower. For a 60-degree coverage tower, combinations of this alpha-numeric will identify which slice of the pie is involved. Each tower has a reception range from less than a mile to 12 miles. Each area covered by the sector can be narrowed to within one-tenth of a mile. Side 1 on AT&T and Verizon towers faces north. This is for the typical tower…exceptions exist.

      If possible, ask for cell tower information within 7 to 15 days. Then ask the service provider to provide the PCMD (Sprint), RTT (Verizon) or Activity Log (T-Mobile). This can put a handset down to a certain distance from the tower.

      For example, the handset was between 6/10 ths and 7/10 ths of a mile from this specific tower within the sector with compass readings of 300 degrees (WNW) and 60 degrees (ENE).

      • Robert the Second says


        Good info and thanks for the lesson.

        According to Wired magazine, the largest (one million square feet) NSA data center is near Bluffdale, Utah.

        And for a “balanced” view, here is the “Domestic Surveillance Directorate “Defending Our Nation. Securing The Citizens,” code-named “Bumblehive.”

        “It is the first Intelligence Community Comprehensive National Cyber-security Initiative (IC CNCI) data center designed to support the Intelligence Community’s efforts to monitor, strengthen and protect the nation. Our Utah “massive data repository” is designed to cope with the vast increases in digital data that have accompanied the rise of the global network.”

        “NSA is the executive agent for the Office of the Director of National Intelligence (ODNI) and is the lead agency at the center.”

        How nice, one of the “3 Big Lies.” Trust me, I work for the Government, and I’m here to help you.

        • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

          Reply to Robert the Second ( RTS ) post on April 21, 2017 at 6:56 pm

          >> RTS said…
          >> According to Wired magazine, the largest (one million square
          >> feet) NSA data center is near Bluffdale, Utah.

          “Our Utah ‘massive data repository’ is designed to cope with the vast increases in digital data that have accompanied the rise of the global network.”

          Well then… I take back what I said up above.

          Maybe they really DO now have the ‘disk capacity’ to record every freakin’ cellphone conversation.

          Again, as Edward Snowden has kindly now let us ALL know, the NSA operates from the perspective that their MANDATE is to COLLECT information… and that no ‘permission’ is needed.

          If it CAN be ‘collected’… then they just go ahead and do it.

          The ANALYSIS of that ‘collected data’ is where they think silly things like LAWS then enter into the picture.

          Your tax dollars at work.

          • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

            The following ‘report’ just appeared.

            It confirms that what Eric Snowden has kindly ( and bravely ) let us ALL know about the MASSIVE surveillance that the NSA is constantly doing DID have some ‘impact’…

            …but only kinda sorta.

            NBC News
            Article Title: NSA Collected Americans’ Phone Records Despite Law Change: DNI Report
            Published: May 2, 2017 – By: Reuters

            WASHINGTON — The U.S. National Security Agency ( NSA ) collected more than 151 million records of Americans’ phone calls last year, even after Congress limited its ability to collect bulk phone records, according to an annual report issued Tuesday by the top U.S. intelligence officer.

            It found that the NSA collected the 151 million records even though it had warrants from the secret Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Court to spy on only 42 terrorism suspects in 2016.

            Officials argued Tuesday that the 151 million records collected last year were relatively few compared with the number collected under procedures that were stopped after former NSA contractor Edward Snowden revealed the surveillance program in 2013.

    • says

      Reply to WTKTT regarding Darrell Willis’ cell phone :

      I understand that Willis’ cell phone, paid for by city of Prescott, was searched for records–could he have possibly had another private cell phone with him that he paid for and which records were not submitted after the fire?

      • says

        Extreme temperature of Yarnell fire:

        “in the case of the Biscuit fire and many other fires, the hottest and most dangerous burns were those set by the firefighters themselves as backburns”

        The Wildfire Reader page 335

        Can anyone explain where backburns were set on the Yarnell fire that could explain how hot this fire was burning?

        • Robert the Second says


          Wildfire Reader author George Wuerthner is the ecological projects director for the Foundation for Deep Ecology, where he does research and writes about environmental issues. For many years he was a full-time freelance photographer and writer and has published thirty-eight books on natural history, conservation history, ecology, and environmental issues.

          He is also a professional photographer and the co-author of Welfare Ranching: The Subsidized Destruction of the American West (Island Press 2002).

          Laudable experience and qualities indeed, however, I see NO wildland fire and/or prescribed burning EXPERIENCE in there. So then, I would discount his claims of “the hottest and most dangerous burns were those set by the firefighters themselves as backburns.” He has no idea what he is talking about.

          First off, there are no such thing as backburns.

          The Biscuit Fire was one of many fires in areas the USFS manged for Spotted Owl habitat, therefore they excluded RX burning and any other form of fuel treatments because of the Endangered Feces Act. This lack of fire resulted in massive dead and down fuel loadings that resulted in explosive and extreme plume dominated fire behavior when they finally burned.

          On the contrary, the hottest and most dangerous burns are NOT those set by the firefighters themselves, but those where the Federal land Management Agencies refuse to do their jobs as land managers and utilize fire as the historical “tool” it has been for thousands of years.

          The Yarnell Fire burnouts were very minor compared to the fire behavior in the natural drought-stressed, massive fuel loadings of decadent chaparral that had not burned in over 48 years.

          Wildfire Reader author George Wuerthner is merely using drama and hyperbole to stimulate his readers.

          • says

            Reply to RTS:

            What is the difference between a back burn and burn out?

            For example, fire chiefs who are hybrid called it back burn on the Tenderfoot fire.

              • Joy A Collura says


                A good piece of data to share to you about the chief on Tenderfoot fire—if you ask him before 2013 what was his earned experiences with actual fires or fighting fires or even training with wildfires or any fires or his fire folk mentors—see what he says—see if it matches up to what I has been God guided and gathered from people who went to school with him …worked with him and EMT trained with him and were buffaloed how he was a chief all of a sudden after YHF without the proper legal posting of the position so other qualified could apply…what happen to that proper route that local FFs were disturbed about to this day on that topic- Never has been answered yet— years later.

                See if it matches up to some of the amazing people who really have spent time and passion dealing with fires and their transparency- and see if they say BACK BURN…probably won’t see it said much from fire industry veterans.

                We all fight fires different. I mean as an example just today in defensible space work Tex puts on his flame thrower and turns it wrong way and blows out flames; big swoosh…no biggie and his spot with no wind burned out fast yet Joy the more reserved avoidable gal gives it a try doing it a tiny right in front of her only spot so she could quickly shovel it out and Tex says something about snake holes and I look his way and not in front of me and this weird crazy high wind took my tiny spot into me taking a shovel and putting it out and so it taught me you can have the seasoned experience like Tex but when he jumps on ya saying “Jesus F’ing Christ”—that seems like poor leadership when he is suppose to be showing me how to help him out yet to know him he was keeping it down and real talk but when I go in saying I am not flame thrower savvy—stay close by and he opts not because I want to burn right in front of me not in a walk sway back and forth way wide experienced way because I want to learn what I am holding first…so patience should be a leaders top priority as well as comprehension we all observe and absorb at different pace and levels…Tex is very experienced when it comes to fighting fires probably much more than some who are currently fighting them but hell he is horrible as a trainee or leadership role and if that same wind happened at his SHWOOSH moment he would feel the desert needed some cleaning up…let it burn…it will burn out…(maybe that’s the new leader ways) Has anyone really looked at all the maps on fires since YHF and thereafter…really PAID ATTENTION to what they place out public on their map to eyewitness and property owners pictures to see real time data versus maps just placed out public…

                Diane- keep reading that book Wildfire Reader as there IS fire industry folks in that book. Stephen Pyne who we hiked is in there and what about page 276/286 Ingalsbee….GO DIANE!!!

                You should read and jot down corresponding cross references to any and all items and statistics you feel particularly noteworthy and drawn to— than your references catalog then becomes YOUR expertise which you can utilize to bolster the GEM YOU ARE FOR YOUR PARTICIPATION THIS LONG and continue to ask the questions becomes then you become de facto an EXPERT in your own right- Secondly chapter 24 covered alot and any questions you have an are ensure if it has been asked already— GO TO EACH CHAPTER and click CTRL and F and the search box pops up and write in your inquiry words and it will share if we discussed it already-

                December 1st 2016 marked for me the most important fire data I learned thus far…and as people come here PLEASE QUESTION after all a fire that died down quite a bit….June 28 to 29 2013 really watch the fire…around noon when Fernandez shows up in the hovering BLM helicopter on the morning of June 30 2013…look at ADOSH line 1436…A: “I guess the significant thing is the fire stopped moving. Um and by morning there was very little smoke left on it.”
                Take line 890…Q2: “Is,uh, he he did give you a size on it? A. “when he finally found it. He he he had a hard time finding it.” That Shumate answer corresponds to the data of the folks referring to the same size of a Buick…the interview has many incongruencies like the timeline the eyewitness (US Tex and Joy) has as we watched and listened on 6-30-13….Barry Hicks (line 2044, Q2) “How’d they describe it to you?” (line 2046 A: “Um, very little activity until the spot fire, then phenomenal fire behavior uphill, downhill, runs simultaneously.” Line 2049, Q2: “Both directions?”…SOME OF THE MISSING ELEMENTS hinges on “keeping the fire active” when it was not…was this a medieval feast that fed and nurtured such an affair until it just got too hot and too windy…what about the interviews and times we the hikers spent with some from DOC-LEWIS CREW…Why hasn’t Craig Knapp learned the soul of this fire for McKee and the homeowners or the lack of since some remain quiet all these years later—….and why hasn’t he interviewed or spent time early on with some of these willing folks…why wait for a court time—some were willing to do depositions very early on—Has anyone focused to other data that is not ye PUBLIC on fires…YHF…any…and really PAID ATTENTION…answer me this—WHAT HAD BEEN GOING ON JUST PRIOR TO CHANGE OF COMMAND 6-30-13….oh yes the FIRE STOPPED MOVING and LITTLE SMOKE LEFT ON IT…
                Narrow it down to the FINAL TRUE TO LIFE DATA—their testimony—and our own EYEWITNESS accounts and photos of hearing and seeing the explosions and seeing flames….SHUMATE LINE 2046, A: “Um, very little activity until the spot fire then phenomenal fire behavior uphill, downhill runs simultaneously.” Sooooooo here is where the WORLD fails me the eyewitness that to date noone wants to publicly engage or “go there” with timeline logical set of detailed and direct questions and answers…such as HOW BIG was that spot fire Hick should of asked Shumate…and how far did it jump in order to be this ferocious ninja bad ass spot fire…was it an acre in size???? was it 10 acres? did it travel a 100 yards??? or 1000??? was it in an odd straight line or a teardrop in shape?
                YOU SEE WE THE EYEWITNESS WATCHED AND TIMED HOW LONG IT TOOK TO TRAVEL UP THE MOUNTAIN AND GAVE THE WORLD OUR ACCOUNT yet some missing elements still have not…why not those in the industry on that fire when 19 men died….how come when in 1995 3 firefighters died atf jumped in saying that is what they do when firefighters fall…well how about 19 men???? where was atf????

                Diane- this was a commercial request and I enclose what that chief Ben Palm wrote me:

                Fri, Jan 27, 2017 at 5:17 PM


                Here is some information that was asked about from the district.

                Commercial Request:

                1. There has never been a document giving me authority or agreement to access any State Park.

                2. I do not have a document of any type of someone who has been granted “special access”, you might need to take that up with the State Parks.

                3. There was never an agreement between YFD and state park. I do not have any information on state land and state parks. You will have to ask them about this issue.

                4. I am waiting on the board to get my evaluations from board records.
                The Red Card is one paper .25
                The qualifications that are asked for must be specific. Please submit new request.

                5. I do not have paperwork that shows position or role on Memorial Board. State Parks will have that and it might be in minutes.

                6. We do not have any paperwork on use of Hummer. This vehicle is used for official fire duties. It is a command vehicle and the Fire Chief is the only person who uses it. GMC, H3, 2008

                7. I do not know what you mean by film industry accounts with the staff rides. The Fire Chief was on every Staff Ride the state had for 2016. Role calls or lists of names will have to be given by the Department of Forestry and Fire Management.

                8. There is no documentation of presence of Fire Chief on the hill with A.C.E.

                9. The Fire Chief receives a salary of 42,000 per year for all years asked.

                10. There were no Staff Rides for the Film industry that Yarnell Fire was involved with.

                11. The map that was shown to Santos was already given in last request. If an additional paper is needed .25

                The total price for this request will be .50 for two pages.


                Yarnell Fire Department
                Chief Ben Palm

                (928) 671-0553-cell
                (928) 427-6578-office

                PO Box 581
                Yarnell, AZ. 85362

                Diane- I never heard anything further after this email from the chief nor received that foia where he states some fees on some pages and that was in January–So what I can say as much investigating that I have done..the best is yet to come out…and it will….we are reaching the right spots behind the scenes and this blog will be first to hear about it when it does happen…I have not looked at my USDA…forestry….state…blm FOIAS much this 2017 due to getting Tex situated and just never the proper sit down time…
                Sitting where he is now is not organically the right spot to be for me…hoping to dodge death from disease in his new area—
                I shake my head and limit my times…what he has there is aggressive and fighting flies that would win any UFC fight anytime of the year even with the Irish McGregor…a losing battle when a landfill and horse/goat farm and crop farms are within miles…

                Diane- thank you for your participation. I do not know HOW you learned about IM yet it is nice to see outside the fire industry folks involved too….

                All my best to John Dougherty and I am so sorry to hear you were detained recently- home on my anniversary….known each other almost 30 years yet married 24 of them…however cannot explain 2011 to present except you ever watch Twilight Zone?

                  • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

                    As for the Yarnell Fire…

                    The fire went from ‘almost out’ to ‘flaring up’ and ‘escaping’ over the east-flank two-track road at the same time helicopter N14HX was hovering directly over the fire and ‘delivering’ a load of ‘bladder bags’ late Saturday afternoon.

                    Helitack Nate Peck had been ‘dropped off’ out at the old hang-gliding launch pad being used as the ‘helispot’ that day when N14HX first landed there about 11:00 AM Saturday morning.

                    That ‘helispot’ was about 1/4 mile north of the fire location and well clear of the fire itself.

                    Nate Peck left the Helispot and joined the 6 members of the Lewis DOC Crew to help ‘mop up’ the fire during Saturday afternoon.

                    Later that afternoon, when it was decided ( by ICT4 Russ Shumate ) to deliver ‘bladder bags’ to the men rather than use the available N14HX ‘Bambi Bucket’ for water drops, Helitack Nate Peck was still at the fire location along with the Lewis DOC Crew.

                    Helitack Nate Peck ( the one certified to ‘receive’ and ‘unhook’ any Helicopter deliveries ) did NOT return to the Helispot to ‘receive’ the bladder bags.

                    Since Peck was right there at the actual active fire location with the other men, someone ( the N14HX pilot? ) decided the easiest and fastest thing to do was to hover directly over the men where they were already fighting the fire and deliver the bladder bags directly to them.

                    It was while Helicopter N14HX was ‘hovering’ over them and ‘delivering’ the bladder bags that the fire ‘flared up’ and ‘escaped’ over the two-track road and down into the ‘drainages’ on the eastern slope.

                    It remains perfectly possible ( if not highly likely ) that the ‘rotor wash’ from Helicopter N14HX is what actually CAUSED this ‘flare up’ and was the reason the Saturday initial attack on an almost-out fire then became the SECOND ( and eventually tragic ) Yarnell Fire being fought on Sunday.

                    No investigators ever even bothered to interview the PILOT of BLM-contract Helicopter N14HX.

                    We still have no idea WHO the PILOT of Helicopter N14HX was… or whether he/she really had any Wildland Firefighting experience ( or savvy ) at all.

                  • rocksteady says

                    Wildfire is a very dynamic thing… It can go from setting very idle to a active fire with very little change in perceived weather conditions.

                    For example, (these are just hypothetical numbers, not true validated measurements)…

                    Overnight, the air temperature would have been down quite a bit, relative humidity should have been up a bit…

                    Not sure if there was an inversion or not (an inversion is layer of stagnant air that traps air movement from rising upwards (hot air rises). With an inversion, the higher you go the warmer the air is (usually, as you go higher the air gets colder).

                    Once you reach a certain air temperature, you “break the inversion”… This means the stagnant trapped air on the ground starts to rise significantly, at a an accelerated rate as compared to normal day time heating air movement.. Once it breaks, the air rises, drawing in air at the ground level in, causing a fresh supply of oxygen. Once the cycle begins, it is like when you are lighting a woodstove and finally get the chimney to “draft”….

                    Another possibility is just the conditions themselves… The area was drought ridden, with excessive amounts of cured fuels. A fire burning at 80 F, with a wind speed of 2 mph may look fairly benign, however, once that temp hits 90 F with a wind of 6 mph, the characteristics totally change..

                    In my organization we call it “being on the bubble”… temp and RH and wind are not at the point where real fire behaviour is experienced, but change the numbers by a small amount and suddenly you will get very aggressive behaviour, then once convection develops (major column going skyward, sucking in air from all directions, fanning the fire) you can get a convection driven fire which is basically unstoppable. It takes Mother Nature to change the weather conditions to get the fire to slow (temp/rh/wind/time of day etc etc)

                    Experienced fire fighters have seen a fire go from a “piece of crap scrub fire’ (aka Yarnell on the 29th) to a massive beast (Yarnell on the 30th)….

                    That is why it is totally imperative that a FIRE BEHAVIOUR SPECIALIST analyzes the forecasted weather predictions, to create a fire behaviour advisory, showing the potential rates of spread of the fire, intensities, flame heights etc to ensure that fire fighters are kept safe. Then it is imperative that everyone knows about the forecast (morning briefing), THEN EVERYONE ACT ACCORDING TO THE PREDICTION (no going rogue, leaving the black, travelling through unburned fuels, without anyone knowing where you are), then screaming for help, when you are in such deep shit that no resource available on the fire can save your ass for making such a stupid decision, then crawling into a fire shelter cause every other single option to survive has been taken off the board.

                    • says

                      To quote Randall O’Toole:

                      The decline in logging and grazing due to ecological concerns fire has become the new gravy train–

                      money for fire suppression is nearly unlimited but activities to reduce fire hazards like prescribed burning are woefully underfunded”

                      So—if fire is burning out there is limited funding available but if it is increasing in activity more funds and resources can be released to the situation.

                      I am wondering if manipulation through a helicopter hovering low over spot fire or other strategies to increase fire behavior on the yhf as it appeared to be dying down on June 29 could account for the fire getting out of control?

                • says

                  You asked how I learned about IM——
                  I was living in Tucson at the time of the fire and began reading news coverage. Some of the articles that I read referenced IM so I started reading to learn more.
                  I also read other news accounts but have styed with IM.

              • Joy A Collura says

                Your comment is awaiting moderation.

                in case that assumptions falls down or someone says that is AU not USA— here is his email reply:
                Mon, Apr 24, 2017 at 5:37 PM
                h t tps://w ww.g ebhp?sourceid=c hrome-instant&ion=1&e spv=2&ie=U TF-8#q=glossary+firefighting+terms

                have a nice ANZAC day

                David Bowman
                Professor of Environmental Change Biology
                School of Biological Sciences
                The University of Tasmania
                Private Bag 55
                Hobart TAS 7001


                mobile: 042 88 94 500

                Tel (Int): +61 3 6226 1943
                Tel (Aus): 03 6226 1943

                Fax (Int): +61 3 6226 2698
                Fax (Aus): 03 6226 2698

                ht tp://w ww.u

                skyp e davi d.bow man0

                Research ID A-2930-2011

                Honorary Professor
                Archaeology and Natural History
                School of Culture, History and Language
                The Australian National University
                Canberra, ACT 2601

                • Joy A Collura says

                  burnout: a tactic that involves burning the area between an established control line some distance from the fire and the main fire; sometimes called backburn or backfire, but the official term is burnout

                  source: h t tp:// methowvalleynews. co m/2014/ 08/15/a-wildfire-glossary-what-the-firefighters-terms-mean/

            • Robert the Second says


              Backburn is not a proper wildland firefighting term. It’s a term those not practiced and versed in WF have used for a few years now.

              It’s either burning out or backfiring. Burning out is to be done in the normal course of building fireline, burning out the unburned pockets of fuel.

              A back fire usually is a major operational endeavor that may require a lot of resources and always is based on weather and fire conditions and timing.

              We you hear someone using the term ‘backburn’ then you know that they don’t know what they’re talking about.

          • says

            I have been reading about explosives being used in firefighting.

            Wildfire Reader page 264—“most technological ‘advance in fire line construction involves explosives. Devices like ‘blaster cord’ are used to blast still and brush for fire lines especially on very steep and rocky ground”

            The YHF was burning on steep and rocky ground (boulders) etc.
            Do you know if explosives were utilized on this fire?

            • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

              Reply to Diane Lomas post on April 26, 2017 at 11:17 am

              >> Daine Lomas asked…
              >> The YHF was burning on steep and rocky ground (boulders) etc.
              >> Do you know if explosives were utilized on this fire?

              There is absolutely no evidence that any ‘explosives’ were used, at any time, in the 2013 Yarnell Hill Fire firefighting efforts.

                • Robert the Second says


                  It could have been any number of things, found in most rural communities, mostly in residents’ shed:s:

                  Large or small Propane Tanks, especially 5 gallon BBQ ones

                  Dynamite and/or other mining explosives

                  Stored gasoline or any other fuel

                  Old military ordnance, i.e souvenirs

                  Abandoned vehicles with gasoline in the tank still

                  • Joy A Collura says


                    Rts is correct yet in addition I have interviews from both the homeowners to people in the fire industry on that fire who report of an “unknown/unidentifiable” explosion noise 6.30.13 out past Baluco/Whitehead area and the ones in the fire industry can identify the items listed in RTS list but not the noise they heard-

                    as for Sonny the man who cannot hear but certain noises; he heard it—what I heard sounded like gun shots fired than flames- that is all I can say from the mountain tops but Sonny has his way which differs from mine.

                    as I shared to a widow of the GMHS October 2013 via email—I will turn over every spot when it comes to wildfires and how 19 men died 6-30-13— which use to be just YHF and Tenderfoot but now sadly its many more wildfires because anyone who is anyone knows there is more to hear about on the gatlinburg fire that affected people I care about…and in about 10 to 15 years you might just be sitting aside a lake fishing hearing a retired FF nearby as he is drinking and fishing as he cusses to the line that catches zip and you hear him talking to the fallen…or maybe finally someone that was a part in this all will just come here one late night anonymously and open up with no fears or pressures—just lay it out as pure as possible.

                    Hold on to hope Diane that people will eventually open up-

                    • Cheerleader says

                      below content is spoken from the bleachers:

                      ((((((April 27 2017 3:17pm correspondence from bleachers to Woodsman’s “cheerleader”—>))))))

                      Diane thank you for staying here &, WTKTT, thank you for your detailed answer, regarding the Saturday “escape across the two-track” which, according to the ADOSH interview, referenced earlier, in Line1050-1060 turns out to be “sometime in mid-afternoon” and coincides, later with narrative starting at Line 1082, which refer to the “slopover” occurring at the same time as the sling-load of bladder bags are being dropped off… do you think that is before or after 3:30pm… and do you think, the reference to “getting more people up there” might have been before or shortly after the “slopover event”? At any rate, please, drop back a few hours in time to between 11:00am and 12:00noon and revisit the dropbox with the various Dean Fernandez photos and compare ALL those (plus, any Rory Collins shots, you feel might be appopriate) views of the actual fire status… STILL ON THE ORIGIN SIDE of the two-track… pretty clean dirt pathway with seemingly well-defined “burnscar” flank dimensions, right or wrong? Back to the above Line 1082 segment and the Q&A is defining “creep” and the rate-of-creep at some point, prior to “slopover” …with SHUMATE’S reply to the question of “One to two foot?” being, “It was probably less than that because it was on the grass that they were describing to me.” What do you think, either, the “one to two foot” or “probably less” refers to as a rate-of-time, as in the Q2 “(unintelligible)” notation? If we back up to “creep” being “probably less… than one foot per whatever” and assume, we are not dealing with “per second” rates… and return-back-in-time to the Fernandez photos… WHAT IS YOUR DESCRIPTION OF THE FIRE INTENSITY AND ESTIMATE OF UNBURNED FUEL REMAINING ON THE “FIRE” SIDE OF THE TWO-TRACK? From this point in tune/time and “fire activity status”…temps-wind-humidity of that specific time of day and TheCREEP versus TheMEN (how-many-men-against-how-long-and-wide-is-the-two-track-with-what-amount-of-unburned-fuel)… 11:30 tick-tick-tick 3:30pm ??? OK… that is Saturday’s “challenge” of MAN-against-FIRE! Sunday is a WHOLE DIFFERENT STORY and that is where the questions surrounding “both directions” and “two witnesses” and ”mystery man” and the-stage-is-set by starting with Line 1429 (Q2) leading into Line 1436 of SHUMATE’S answer of “I guess the significant thing is the fire finally stopped moving. Um and by morning there was very little smoke left on it.” The primary open question is the *****time frame******* from the above description until the Q&A of “both directions” and “phenomenal fire behavior” (perhaps, best to start with Line 2028) and consider, if you will, the same set of questions as have been postulated for the
                      MAN-against-FIRE “challenge” of Saturday (same men, maybe more men… same approximate time of day and weather… same intensity or lack thereof of fire or not)?

                      Diane, just, needs to politely define the time frame on her explosion inquiry because there would be no items that RTS listed out in the desert areas where the early day explosion noise was noted and heard by many. I would anticipate such noises on his list closer to Glen Ilah and Yarnell later that day on 6.30.13 and already have time stamped and identified those noises and locations and what blew up. I have that already mapped out.

                      Also it is time to locate the “cowboy” who, also, heard an explosion (and try, as best we can, to narrow down his timeline, as well).

                      Diane, Wildfire Reader is good to read yet Bill Gabbert’s page “WildfireToday”… an absolute “treasure-trove” for someone, like myself and others (many-missing-puzzle-pieces).

                      Some have traveled recently to a “fire collaterative meeting” and listened (as well, commented, as appropriate)… all the while, intently observing the various primary participants and even gained key EYEWITNESS to their own fire—who watched, as a pivotal burnout operations not reported on another fire was set, which ran “backwards” in the direction of some land that should of never happened—

                      Diane- h ttp ://quillandfox.c om/main/wp-content/uploads/2013/10/sincerelyty.jpg

                      We appreciate you.

                    • says

                      Reply to explosions and loud noises like gunfire on YHF:
                      I’m reading that:

                      Firefighters may use a “wide arsenal of incendiary devices to ignite burnouts; handheld drip torches,fusees,flares launched by special pistols and mortars,truck mounted flame-throwers ‘terratorches’,helicopters with suspended barrels of diesel fuel and aircraft delivered incendiary bomblets called ‘ping pong balls”.

                      I am wondering how many of these devices may have been used on the Yarnell Hill Fire to increase the fire activity?

                      Wildfire Reader p. 273

                    • says

                      Reply to Bleachers and Cheerleader,

                      Thank you for your encouraging and supportive comments.

                      I enjoy being a part of this blog and discussion.

      • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

        Reply to Diane Lomas post on April 22, 2017 at 10:04 am

        >> Diane Lomas said…
        >> I understand that Willis’ cell phone, paid for by city of Prescott,
        >> was searched for records

        Actually… that is not the case.

        His ‘physical phone’ was never ‘confiscated’ by anyone… nor ‘searched’.

        It was ADOSH that requested his ‘call records’ from the City of Prescott and they, in turn, got Willis’ records from the cell carrier and turned them over to ADOSH.

        Willis willingly turned over some photographs he had taken that Sunday with his ‘smartphone’ to the SAIT investigators… but no one ever actually ‘scraped’ Willis’ physical phone.

        >> Diane Lomas also said…
        >> could he have possibly had another private cell phone with him
        >> that he paid for and which records were not submitted after the fire?

        By all accounts… no.

        Willis appears to have only had the one ‘smartphone’… and he was using that ‘City of Prescott’ supplied ‘smartphone’ as both his business and personal device.

        It was Eric Marsh that has always been rumored to have had TWO cellphones.

        It was Deborah Pfingston herself ( Andrew Ashcraft’s mother ) that first stated ( on this public forum ) that ( paraphrasing ) “Anyone who knew Eric knows that he always had TWO cellphones with him out in the field”.

        It has never been verified whether Eric Marsh really did ( or did not ) have TWO cellphones or whether he had both of them with him in Yarnell.

          • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

            Reply to Diane Lomas post on April 24, 2017 at 9:51 am

            >> Diane Lomas said…
            >> Did ATF participate in the investigation of the deaths
            >> of Granite Mountain?

            As far as I know… no.

            The moment it was discovered that this Federally-certified Type 1 IHC Hotshot crew was not, in fact, ‘owned and operated’ by the Federal Government… all Federal agencies did all they could to ‘distance’ themselves from the ‘investigations’.

            The only ‘exception’ was the obvious ‘insertion’ of Mike Dudley, USDA US Forestry employee, as a Co-Leader of the ‘official’ investigation ( along with all the other Federal employees that were also brought in as subject matter experts, etc. ).

            The only reason the cellphones were submitted to the Arizona Counter-Terrorism Information Center ( ACTIC ) for full analysis is because the only thing the Yavapai County Sheriff’s office had to try and ‘examine’ the phones is this bullshit piece of software called ‘Cellibrite’.

            ‘Cellibrite’ is used by most municipal and state-level law enforcement agencies to ‘scrape’ cellphones and pull all the data off them… but it ONLY works if the device is able to power on and function normally. ‘Cellibrite’ also can’t get around any password protection on the devices… which was necessary for a few of the Granite Mountain cellphones.

            So Yavapai County Sheriff’s office simply asked ACTIC for their technical expertise and ‘equipement’ to help scrape ALL of the recovered cellphones.

            By the way… It’s actually the ATFE now.

            Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives.

          • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

            Daryl Willis was deemed to be ‘cooperating’ with investigators.

            He had already supplied what he said were any ‘pertinent’ photographs from his phone to the SAIT… and the City of Prescott cooperated fully with ADOSH’s request for ALL of his ‘phone call records’ for even the entire month of June, 2013.

            The Yavapai County Sheriff’s Office had already decided there had been no direct ‘foul play’ ( from a law enforcement perspective ) involved in any of the 19 deaths, so there was no active ‘criminal’ investigation.

            Could ADOSH have decided they NEEDED to ‘scrape’ Darrell Willis’ phone and made a request for it? Sure… but the Prescott City Attorney would have probably put up a pretty good fight over that and ADOSH would have had to supply some good PCRTB ( Probable Cause, Reason To Believe ) in order to win that legal fight.

            Darrell Willis was most certainly a ‘suspect’ with regards to who might have given some kind of ‘order’ or ‘directive’ to Granite Mountain that afternoon… and the ADOSH investigators most certainly looked hard and long at that possibility… but there has never been any ‘evidence’ that Willis was actually involved in the actual ‘move’ out of the ‘safe black’ that day.

            • says

              Without scraping his phone how can it be proved that Willis did not order Granite mountain to leave their black (burned) spot to come to Yarnell or influnce AA to stay in Peeples Valley after 2pm on 6/30/2013 to drop retardant?

              • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

                Reply to Diane Lomas post on April 26, 2017 at 3:21 pm

                >> Diane Lomas said…
                >> Without scraping his phone how can it be proved
                >> that Willis did not order Granite mountain to
                >> leave their black (burned) spot to come to Yarnell
                >> or influnce AA to stay in Peeples Valley after 2pm
                >> on 6/30/2013 to drop retardant?

                As in… how do you prove a ‘negative’?

                That’s always hard… but the standard approach is that if there is no evidence that someone ever actually DID something… then it can be assumed they did NOT.

                That’s pretty much the case with Darrell Willis.

                There is ( currently ) no evidence that he did either of those things… and a ‘scrape’ of his phone would probably not supply any more ‘negative evidence’ than his actual phone records.

                There is, of course, always the ‘Air-To-Ground’ radio channel conversations.

                If Willis was ‘talking’ to ‘Bravo 33’ and telling them to do anything… that is where that ‘evidence’ lies.

                But no ‘Air-To-Ground’ radio channel recordings have ( as yet ) surfaced.

                All we have to go on there are the occasional captures of the A2G conversations accidentally recorded in some of the Panebaker Air-Drop videos and in some of the Aaron Hulburd videos.

                In none of those ‘accidental’ A2G conversation captures do we ever hear Willis talking directly to ‘Air Attack’ about anything.

                • says

                  Air to Ground communications—

                  These records have been very difficult to uncover.

                  I am assuming that they could reveal facts about the fire that may incriminate personnel at the fire which could lead to charges but what about the widows who just want the truth so they know wht happened to their loved ones?

                  Is there not a way that the truth can be laid out without criminal charges ensuing?

                  • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

                    I don’t know about there being anything in the ‘Air To Ground’ radio channel recordings that might ‘automatically’ lead to any ‘charges’… but they would most certainly provide the ‘answers’ to many ongoing ‘mysteries’ about what really happened that tragic afternoon.

                    There are MANY reports ( even in the SAIT ) of both Eric Marsh and Jesse Steed themselves actually ‘talking’ to ‘Bravo 33’ ( Thomas French, John Burfiend and Clint Cross ) over the A2G radio channel.

                    But those ‘reports’ ( some of which we still have no idea where they came from ) remain confusing.

                    Example: There is a ‘report’ that at some point, Jesse Steed himself was talking directly to ‘Air Attack Bravo 33’ and telling them ( quote ) “We are headed to a RANCH that we have IN SIGHT”.

                    There has never been any full ‘context’ provided for this ‘reported’ conversations… such as exactly WHEN that happened… and/or whether or not the reason Jesse Steed was ‘informing’ Air Attack about that was also accompanied by some kind of ‘request’ for ‘Air Attack’ to either act as their ‘lookout’ at that time and/or provide any kind of ‘support’ for their risky ‘move’ through that blind box canyon.

                    The only proof we have that this ‘reported’ conversation actually DID take place is the fact that DPS Officer Eric Tarr later ‘testified’ that the REASON he suggested they ‘fly a search line’ in the helicopter towards the Boulder Springs Ranch is because he ( Tarr ) had, in fact, OVERHEARD this ‘conversation’ between Jesse Steed and ‘Bravo 33’… and Eric Tarr DID recall hearing Steed say “We’re headed to a RANCH we have IN SIGHT”.

                    Eric Tarr said he overheard this while he was, in fact, monitoring the ‘Air To Ground’ radio channel that afternoon.

                    The FULL ‘conversation’ that might have taken place at that time would certainly provide more details about what led to the actual tragedy.

                    That’s just ONE example of what a complete recording of all the A2G conversations might reveal about what was really happening that afternoon.

                    There are MANY other ‘mysteries’ that could ALSO be solved via the A2G recordings.

                    • says

                      A2G recordings:

                      Is there a possibility that these recordings may reveal communication between Bravo 33 and Granite Mountain in the hour or so leading up to the deployment that could have included Granite Mountain requesting air support and Bravo 33 not responding due to committments in Peeples Valey after 4 pm on 6/30/2013?

  21. WantsToKnowTheTruth says

    Reply to Diane Lomas post on April 20, 2017 at 4:00 pm

    >> Diane Lomas said…
    >> As I listened to an earlier video where Mike Dudley was speaking
    >> to a group of firefighters about the Yarnell Hill Fire he stated that
    >> in the box canyon where Granite Mountain was trapped they had
    >> fire in back of them and fire in front of them.
    >> Where was the fire in back of them coming from?

    From the same ‘fireline’ that is clearly seen in all of the photos they took at the ‘rest spot’ in the safe black, just before leaving that area.

    That ‘fireline’ eventually spread due south and first ‘flowed’ around the mounds out in the middle bowl known as ‘Big Round Top’ and ‘Little Round Top’, and then ‘flowed’ in two directions

    Due south towards the mouth of the box canyon.
    Due southwest ( and up the slope ) towards the ‘Descent Point’ saddle

    Remember that both ‘fire’ and ‘water’ are similar in that they will both follow the laws of ‘fluid dynamics’. They will both ‘flow’ along the path of ‘least resistance’.

    Watch the following video ( the whole thing ).

    It is a ‘through the looking glass’ style video based on actual raw aerial footage taken by the ABC 15 media helicopter as it was filming over Yarnell from 4:00 PM to 4:50 PM that tragic afternoon.

    The helicopter footage used for the following video was taken in the 4:20 PM timeframe, after the fireline had crossed over Brendan’s ‘lookout mound’ location, and was then ‘flowing’ around those mounds out in the ‘middle bowl’ and heading right at the ‘box canyon’.

    This ‘idea’ that at the moment Granite Mountain realized they were in trouble, they were then immediately seeing fire both ‘ahead’ and ‘behind’ them was first ‘floated’ by Darrell Willis during that initial July 23, 2013 press conference that was held at the deployment site.

    Darrell Willis first put that ‘idea’ out there as just some way to possibly explain WHY Granite Mountain chose to deploy on the floor of the box canyon, rather than make any attempt at all to ‘drop packs and run’ and even TRY to make it back up over the ridge they had just come down from.

    It was in the ‘lead up’ to Willis’ now infamous statement saying that the offical reason all those men burned to death was because it was “God’s plan”.

    Here is exactly what Darrell Willis first said back on July 23, 2013 during that initial press conference at the deployment site…

    Darrell Willis: They had committed to go downhill.

    They were committed to come downhill.

    They… they probably saw the fire in this area and then… ah… were looking for a place because they knew that they had fire on both sides of ’em… they had fire behind ’em… and now they had fire ahead of them… and so at the site that’s fenced behind me they began to do some work… and… ya know… the timeframe is really, really short… that they had to work. Ah… they carved… started cuttin’ out a safety zone with their saws.

    The… the voice of what actually happened… we’ll never know.
    We’re not gonna have that information from them.

    But… uh… I can tell ya that they died with honor.

    That… uh… they stuck together.

    They… uh… nobody cut and run the other direction.
    Nobody tried to get out of the way.
    They all deployed.
    They were a very cohesive team.

    uh… ya can call it an accident… I just say…
    God had a different plan for that crew at this time.


    Oddly enough, though… this is the ONLY time during that press conference that Darrell Willis spouted that ‘official line’ that was emerging back in the ongoing SAIT investigation that Granite Mountain must have chose to ‘deploy’ because they must have simultaneously seen fire ‘ahead’ and ‘behind’ them.

    Later in the same press conference… Willis then only relies on the ‘uphill versus downhill’ rate-of travel argument for the reason why GM decided to ‘deploy’ on the floor of the box canyon.

    He never again says ( with the same certainty ) “They saw fire BEHIND them”.

    Willis ‘drops back’ to only suggesting they MIGHT have.

    ** From the Q/A part of the press conference…

    Even in this question from a reporter, after Willis was specifically asked to EXPLAIN how it was that fire came at them from BOTH directions at the same time… Willis only mentions the fire that was AHEAD of them and coming at them from the mouth of the box canyon.

    And he is now just saying that the reason they didn’t ‘retreat’ was just because of TIME and ‘uphill versus downhill’ travel rate argument and is only now saying IF they ‘saw fire’ behind them… not that they actually DID with the same certainty he has ‘announced’ during the narrative part of the press conference.

    Q: Chief… they came down… I mean it all looks black right now. Is there a way you can tell, you know, did the fire come down there and around here at the same time… or how did this area get engulfed in flames?

    Darrell Willis: The fire behavior… ah… folks have said that it came around here ( points to mouth of canyon ).. and if ya look… uh… if ya look at that… uh… little swale here it’s… it basically would lead you to believe that the fire came up this direction and up these little drainages here.

    Q: And they wouldn’t have been able to get up that way ( points up to the ridge )?

    Willis: No. They couldn’t of… it… ya know… it may have taken ’em… uh… 20 minutes to get off that… it woulda taken ’em 45 to get back up… or… or more… to get back up that… so once you’re committed downhill there’s really no way to make any time goin’ uphill. So IF they had fire here and they were tryin’ to climb… they woulda never made it… their best option was where they deployed

    Later… same thing… no mention of ‘fire behind them’ when asked about their ‘options’…

    Q: Chief… I know they only had a very short time to pick a spot to deploy their shelters… but can you talk about how optimal a spot this is for shelter deployment… um… I guess the goal is to try and get as much of a seal around ya as ya can?

    Darrell Willis: It was the best they had at the time.

    Uh… it… at the time… based.. ya know… on our… uh… thought that the fire was movin’ up this camon… canyon… it’s the best they had at the time.

    There was NO other options.
    There wasn’t an option to escape… uphill.
    This is where they had to deploy.


    Keep in mind that it is still totally unknown when the ‘moment of realization’ was, or how much TIME Granite Mountain really had that afternoon.

    That would have been the moment that Willis was referring to when he first said publicly, and with an air of ‘certainty’…

    “…they knew that they had fire on both sides of ’em… they had fire behind ’em… and now they had fire ahead of them”

    Willis was actually making it SOUND like they FIRST saw fire ‘behind them’… and only AFTER that saw fire ‘ahead’ of them and felt ‘trapped’ enough to believe that deploying on the floor of the fuel-filled canyon was their ‘only option’.

    The only thing we know for sure is that by 16:39:25 ( 4:39 PM plus 25 seconds ), when we first hear Jesse Steed trying to contact John Burfiend in ‘Bravo 33’… Granite Mountain had ALREADY done all of the following things…

    1. Realized they were in deep trouble.
    2. Considered ALL their options.
    3. Decided to deploy there on the floor of the fuel-filled box canyon.
    4. SEARCHED for the right place to deploy.
    5. Chosen a place and committed to it.
    6. Given out work assignments to ‘improve the site’
    7. Sawyers pulled ropes on their saws and were already ‘at work’
    8. Others assisting with brush removal and ‘burning out around ourselves’ work.

    We know they were already ‘at work’ actually clearing the deployment site when we first hear Jesse Steed because that is not ‘over modulation’ being heard on that first transmission. You can already HEAR the chainsaws running ( at least two ) in the background… and the primary reason Jesse Steed is heard YELLING in that first transmission is because he was close to the saws running and was raising his voice just as much to make sure he could hear HIMSELF speaking into the radio as to be sure the receiving party could hear/understand him over the din as well.

    So the actual ‘moment of realization’ itself that afternoon still all depends on how much TIME had actually elapsed BEFORE 4:39:25 PM in order to complete all the ‘tasks’ listed above.

    It could have only been a few minutes… but could easily have also been as long as 5 to 8 ( or even 10 ) minutes.

    Probably the MOST time-consuming ‘task’ from the list above is the part about searching/finding/choosing the actual place to deploy.

    Maybe they had ‘seen’ that ‘clearing’ already as they were moving east and BEFORE the ‘moment of realization’ and were able to ‘retreat’ to it fairly quickly and ‘get to work’ improving it.

    But maybe not.

    Maybe they really had to ‘struggle’ to even FIND that small clearing in the middle of that tangled mess of vegetation… and wasted MANY precious minutes doing so.

    • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

      Reply to Robert the Second ( RTS ) post on April 1, 2017 at 10:06 am

      >> RTS said…
      >> Courthouse News article on latest AZ Appeals Court ruling against the
      >> families that sued the State of AZ for their homes destroyed by yhe YH Fire.

      Thanks for the ‘heads up’ on this latest ‘ruling’ in the ‘property damage’ lawsuit(s).

      Courthouse News Service
      Article Title: Arizona Ducks Small Town’s Wildfire Claims
      Published: March 31, 2017 by Allie Weintraub

      From the article…
      PHOENIX (CN) – ( The State of ) Arizona is off the hook for extensive property damage caused by a deadly lightning-sparked wildfire in 2013, the Arizona Court of Appeals ruled Thursday.

      The property owners claimed state officials’ negligence, along with their failure to give timely evacuation notice to residents, made Arizona liable for damages.

      The appellate court disagreed.

      Ruling in the residents’ favor would require Arizona to act as insurer of all private property against natural disasters, Judge Kent Cattani wrote for the three-judge panel. Requiring that would create a “self-defeating incentive” for Arizona to stop fighting wildland fires, Cattani concluded.

      Direct link to the actual ‘ruling’ document…,%201%20CA-CV%2015-0350.pdf

      The ( Arizona ) Appellate Court did NOT actually ‘disagree’ with the following…

      “The property owners claimed state officials’ negligence, along with their failure to give timely evacuation notice to residents, made Arizona liable for damages.”

      Instead… the Appellate Court said they must ‘ASSUME’ the allegations of negligence are CORRECT…

      From PDF page 2 of the ‘ruling’ itself…
      The Residents asserted civil claims against the State, alleging that the State had negligently managed the firefighting efforts, negligently failed to protect Yarnell from the fire, and negligently failed to provide a timely evacuation notice, all leading to the destruction of their property.

      We consider only the ( original ) pleading itself, and we ASSUME THE TRUTH of all well-pleaded factual allegations and indulge all reasonable inferences from those facts.

      In other words… Appellate Court Judge Kent E. Cattani ( speaking for himself AND on behalf of the Judge Lawrence F. Winthrop and Judge Peter B. Swann ) is NOT rendering any opinion on the FACTS of the original ‘pleading’.

      Only an actual ‘day in court’ ( which the residents of Yarnell still DESERVE ) can decide that.

      Judge Cattani is ONLY stating ( as Appeal Court judges for cases that have NOT ever even been to trial are REQUIRED to do ) that it MUST be ASSUMED that the alleged FACTS in the pleading are CORRECT… and that the ‘suppression’ efforts at the Yarnell Hill Fire were an absolute cluster-fuck and one of the greatest examples of ‘negligence’ one could ever imagine.

      All he is doing is ‘affirming’ the decision of Judge Gama from the lower court who said that it doesn’t matter if it was all a gigantic display of gross negligence and incompetence. The only thing that ‘matters’ is that despite what most of the good ‘citizens’ of Arizona might BELIEVE… Arizona State Forestry never has one single atomic molecule of ‘responsibility’ or ‘duty’ to ever lift a single finger to ever ‘protect’ any Arizona citizen and/or their property.

      Not EVER ( no matter what all the fireman who get dispatched BELIEVE their ‘job’ is ).

      But Katani takes his “opinion” one step further and basically says that if it were ever possible for any ‘fireman’ working for Arizona State Forestry to EVER be held ‘accountable’ for even the worst negligence and incomptence one could ever imagine… that would just result in Arizona Forestry never bothering to ever do anything at all.

      From PDF page 4 of the ‘ruling’ itself…
      The parties AGREE that prevention or suppression of wildfires ( like the emergency response to any natural disaster ) is a fundamental public safety obligation, and that public policy should encourage a prompt and efficacious response from the State. But imposing a tort duty based on the State’s undertaking to provide an emergency response could instead encourage inaction: the State could shield itself from liability by simply doing nothing.

      Total horseshit.

      The GOOD news is that attorney Craig Knapp himself KNOWS this is ‘Total horseshit’.

      Also from the article…
      “The Arizona Court of Appeals incorrectly concluded that it would be bad public policy to hold the state liable for negligence in fighting wildfires,” attorney Craig Knapp said in a statement. “The best public policy is, we believe, to hold the state as liable as any private citizen for any negligence that it commits when it decides to act.”

      Attorney Craig Knapp said they plan to file a motion for reconsideration by April 14.

      If denied, the residents plan to appeal their case to the Arizona Supreme Court.

      “What we can say for certain is that we will keep fighting for the residents of Yarnell,” Knapp said.

      More to come… and it will now be up to the Arizona Supreme Court to decide what ‘good public policy’ means… and whether ‘good public policy’ really means you can/should have a bunch of incompetent yahoos on the ‘public payroll’ running around committing ‘gross negligence’ who are NEVER capable of being held ‘accountable’ for their fuck-ups.

        • says

          CELL PHONE Communications on YHF:

          I cannot understand why phone records haven’t been obtained from 6/30/2013.

          Even in the case of cell phones being destroyed in the fire and elsewhere I thought it was possible to recover the records.

          Isn’t this accomplished by law enforcement agencies in criminal situations?

          How can this information be obtained? FOIAs?

          • says

            In videos firefighters can be heard asking for Musser’s cell phone number.

            Where are these records?

            Some of these cell phone conversations must contain vital information about what was occurring on the fire and may prevent a future disaster.

          • says

            Cell phone communication :

            To quote WTKTT:

            SAIT and ADOSH would have had “the authority” to obtain the call records of
            pretty much anyone they wanted to–even if it had taken some back and forth with some lawyers to get it done

            Why didn’t this happen especially for Eric Marsh’s cell phone?

            • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

              Reply to Diane Lomas post on April 23, 2017 at 7:28 am

              >> Diane Lomas said…
              >> Cell phone communication :
              >> To quote WTKTT:
              >> SAIT and ADOSH would have had “the authority” to
              >> obtain the call records of pretty much anyone they
              >> wanted to–even if it had taken some back and forth
              >> with some lawyers to get it done
              >> Why didn’t this happen especially for Eric Marsh’s cell phone?

              No one knows.

              Not yet, anyway.

              Remember, however, that even though the Arizona Department Of Health and Safety ( ADOSH ) is an official State-level investigation authority ( and with all the powers that go with it )… it was never the JOB of ADOSH to determine exactly what happened with the deaths of the 19 Hotshots.

              There came a point in their ‘workplace safety’ investigation where they already had enough ‘evidence’ to issue multiple ‘willful serious’ workplace safety violations for that screwed-up Yarnell workplace… and they also realized that they were now ‘pegging the meter’ on the actual maximum level of fines they are even allowed ( by law ) to levy on any Arizona employer.

              So they really didn’t ‘finish’ their investigation.

              Once they were already ‘pegging the meter’ and had hit the ‘maximum fines allowed’ just based on the evidence and testimony they had already ‘collected’… they ‘called it a day’ and really didn’t bother pursuing things that they still could have just to find out what REALLY happened.

              As for the SAIT… look above at that document which shows Jim Karels officially requesting the RTT ( Range To Tower ) records for 26 different Yarnell-related cellphone numbers.

              Probably a large majority of those cellphone numbers belonged to the Granite Mountain Hotshots themselves ( however many of them actually had valid cellphone numbers ).

              But there is NOTHING in the SAIT ‘evidence record’ to indicate if Verizon ever did ‘comply’ with that request and NOTHING to indicate whether the SAIT ever received the ‘call records’ and the RTT data for those 26 cellphone numbers.

              What?… did Verizon REFUSE to supply the information?

              Even that ‘refusal letter’ ( if it happened at all ) should have been part of the ‘public evidence record’ once the SAIT was forced ( via Arizona Open Records laws ) to supply ALL of their ‘evidence’.

              This is probably just more proof that, just like the original Aaron Hulburd videos, Jim Karels and Mike Dudley and Randy Okon ended up LYING about what was actually ‘in their possession’ and they never actually released ALL of the ‘evidence’ that had been assembled by the SAIT… even though that is what the LAW required them to do.

              They only ‘released’ what they WANTED to… and to hell with silly little things like LAWS.

              • says

                Reply to WTKTT
                Regarding cell phones:
                What can be done at this point to access cell phone records for all Granite Mountain hotshot cell records including Eric marsh?

                • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

                  Reply to Diane lomas post on
                  April 23, 2017 at 7:51 pm

                  >> Diane lomas said…
                  >> Regarding cell phones:
                  >> What can be done at this point to access
                  >> cell phone records for all Granite Mountain
                  >> hotshot cell records including Eric marsh?

                  Unless VERIZON actually REFUSED to supply the records officially requested by SAIT Co-Lead Jim Karels… then whatever the SAIT received should still be sitting in a filing cabinet somewhere, even though they ‘pretended’ to not have this information when it came time for a PUBLIC release of ALL the evidence obtained during this totally-tapayer funded ‘investigation’.

                  An ‘Arizona Open Records Request’ and/or an FOIA should produce those records. Remember… it is a FELONY to actually DESTROY ‘evidence’.

                  As for Eric Marsh’s cellphone… his widow got tired of all the controversy and supposedly shared some kind of ‘Eric Marsh cellphone records’ with people.

                  Kinda, sorta.

                  She still refuses to show the actual ‘documents’ and just expects everyone to ‘take her word for it’ regarding what may or may not be in those ‘records’.

                  It is also still not known if these ‘records’ she is/was referring to are just a copy of the usual phone bill one might get in the mail… or whether they really are the FULL packet-level records that can/should be supplied by the Carrier.

                  John Dougherty wrote an article about this and was able to talk to Amanda Marsh herself about it…

                  Article Title: Eric Marsh had no cell phone communications in hours before deployment, his widow says
                  Published: December 20, 2015, by John Dougherty

                  (Story updated at 9:05 a.m., Dec. 21, 2015 to include Amanda Marsh’s statement that Eric Marsh only carried ONE cell phone.)


      • Robert the Second says

        And always remember that in spite of any and all ASF and/or IMT blunders or anything else, it was the sole responsibility of the GMHS Crew Leaders on the YH Fire on June 30, 2013, to protect the safety and welfare of those they supervised, i.e. the GMHS, which included themselves.

        • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

          Only an actual “day in court”, with witnesses finally being FORCED to ” tell the truth, the WHOLE truth, and nothing BUT the truth”, will reveal the FULL scope of what really happened that weekend… and not just on Sunday.

          The ‘negligence’ started on Friday… and CONTINUED for the entire weekend.

          • Robert the Second says

            Yes, agreed. But a competent HS Crew with good, competent supervisors would have remained in the good black and not traveled through the green when they did. They’d all still be alive.

            • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

              And competent ‘management’ would have made SURE they DID.

              It still remains an absolute mystery whether or not Thomas French and John Burfiend and Clint Cross ( in aircraft ‘Bravo 33’ ) were ever actually ‘instructed’ to fly down to the Yarnell side of the fire to make SURE that Granite Mountain was ‘staying put’ in the ‘safe black’… or… if they even WERE ‘instructed’ to do so… whether they actually DID.

              OPS1 Todd Abel ‘testified’ that he DID ‘instruct’ them to do so… and that they DID do the ‘safety check’… and then reported back that GM was, in fact, ‘safe’.

              But Thomas French and John Burfiend ‘testifed’ it was the exact OPPOSITE. They ‘testified’ that it was THEIR idea to go and do a ‘safety check’ on a ‘crew headed to a safety zone’ ( GM )… but that it was then OPS1 Todd Abel who ‘called them off’ on that ‘mission’ and said it wasn’t necessary. So they did NOT do the ‘safety check’.

              Both of those ‘versions’ of what happened that afternoon CANNOT both be TRUE.

              Someone has always been ‘lying’ about it.

              • says

                Is this the same radio conversation where AA heard that Granite Mountain was moving to their safety zone as asked if they should take a time to check out their situation and were told that there was no need as it was Granite Mountain who were safe?

              • says

                Possibly Todd Able did not want AA to be aware of Granite Mountain’s movements toward Yarnell as it might interfere with the Hail Mary plan that was in process and needed to be kept secret as it went against wildland firefighting rules.

                • Robert the Second says


                  What WFF Rules are you referring to here?: “the Hail Mary plan that was in process and needed to be kept secret as it went against wildland firefighting rules.”

                  • says

                    As you may know I am a retired elementary school teacher without fire training but from what I have read one of the wild land fire “rules” or watchout situations” that I was referring to here is *no unburned fuel between firefighters and the fire* .

                    • Robert the Second says


                      Okay. That’s a Watch Out Situation, so one can violate or break a but fail to know it, recognize it and mitigate it.
                      There were other Watch Outs in place that likely precluded them from accomplishing this operatiion, like
                      Weather getting hitter and drier, the winds increasing and/or changing direction,
                      Instructions and assignments not clear, no communication, etc.
                      Doing this on my phone so insure of how this will come out

                    • says

                      Thank you for engaging in this dialogue with me. I usually prefer to follow facts in a situation and resist jumping to conclusions but the resistance to cooperate block access to necessary information has changed my mind.
                      WTKTT suggested earlier on this blog that I should “fire away with my theories” about what I think could have happened on Yarnell when we have been stonewalled and had important evidence withheld .

                      My point is that with the dynamic and dangerous conditions present at the Yarnell Hill fire
                      on the afternoon of 6/30/2013 fire fighters (and commanders) in the
                      area were well aware of the dangers of all the conditions that you mentioned above and if they knew that a crew was ignoring these dangers and
                      engaging in what could be conceived as a
                      suicide mission steps would have most likely been
                      taken to stop them.
                      Not everyone would have tried to stop them—- those who were trying to stop the disaster unfolding that they allowed would be pulling out all the stops to
                      prevent what mismangement had created and would have worked with Granite Mountain to try to pull off this audacious feat—to help Yarnell and its citizens and save face for the agencies in charge of the fire.

                      Again—these are my theories based on what could have happened

                    • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

                      Reply to Diane Lomas post on
                      April 10, 2017 at 12:00 pm

                      >> Diane Lomas said…
                      >> …if they ( other ‘managers’ ) knew that a
                      >> crew was ignoring these dangers and
                      >> engaging in what could be conceived
                      >> as a suicide mission steps would have
                      >> most likely been taken to stop them.

                      In a public speech to a roomful of firefighters on June 20, 2014… Yarnell SAIT Co-Lead Mike Dudley admitted that the fact that DIVSA Eric Marsh was using the ‘private’ GM Intra-crew radio frequency to communicate with the only resouce in his Division ( Granite Mountain ) was definitely a ‘contributing factor’ to what eventually happened that tragic Sunday.

                      DIVSA Marsh was moving his ‘resources’ ( GM ) OUT of their ‘assigned division’ ( Division A ) and into ANOTHER adjacent ‘Division’ ( DIVS Z )… but since that move and the discussions over the radio that led up to it were NOT taking place over the ‘open TAC’ radio channels… other managers and personnel on the fire were not fully aware of what was taking place.

                      According to Mike Dudley… this DID ‘short circuit’ the ‘normal’ process of other ‘managers’ on the fire becoming fully aware of the movement of resources… and the normal chance to provide ‘input’ or… indeed… perform an intervention.

                      If ALL the other ‘managers’ on the fire HAD been fully aware of what Marsh was trying to pull off and ‘ordering’ Granite Mountain to do… would Marsh and/or Steed had ‘listened’ to anyone or followed any advice to NOT make the attempt and ‘stay in the black’?

                      Hard to say.

                      But even though the published SAIR report did NOT mention this… SAIT Co-Lead Mike Dudley himself later admitted that these ‘private conversations’ over a ‘private channel’ between a DIVS ( Marsh ) and a resource Superintendent ( Steed ) which could NOT be ‘heard’ by anyone who didn’t have the GM ‘private’ radio frequency was definitely a ‘contributing factor’ to the tragedy.

                      People like RTS ( and others ) can go on all day long about how it wasn’t anyone else’s ‘responsibility’ to monitor GM’s movements that day… but the REALITY is that…. given the conditions that afternoon… if more ‘managers’ HAD been FULLY aware of what Marsh was ordering GM to do… there MIGHT have been an ‘intervention’ that day… or at least some ‘gut check’ radio calls along the lines of…

                      “Are you SURE you know what the fuck you are doing? Are you SURE you have a ‘lookout’ and your own ‘eyes’ on this thing? Are you FULLY aware how fast this fire is moving towards your planned ‘escape route’?”

                    • Robert the Second says


                      On April 13th you posted:

                      “But even though the published SAIR report did NOT mention this… SAIT Co-Lead Mike Dudley himself later admitted that these ‘private conversations’ over a ‘private channel’ between a DIVS ( Marsh ) and a resource Superintendent ( Steed ) which could NOT be ‘heard’ by anyone who didn’t have the GM ‘private’ radio frequency was definitely a ‘contributing factor’ to the tragedy.”

                      “People like RTS ( and others ) can go on all day long about how it wasn’t anyone else’s ‘responsibility’ to monitor GM’s movements that day… but the REALITY is that…. given the conditions that afternoon… if more ‘managers’ HAD been FULLY aware of what Marsh was ordering GM to do… there MIGHT have been an ‘intervention’ that day… or at least some ‘gut check’ radio calls along the lines of…”

                      Really? Will you kindly refresh my memory and people like me on me/us “go[ing] on all day long about how it wasn’t anyone else’s ‘responsibility’ to monitor GM’s movements that day…’

                      All Wildland Fire Supervisors have the responsibility to monitor their Resources as much as those Resources also have the same responsibility to notify their supervisors, i.e. Fire Order No. 7 “Maintain prompt communications with your forces [resources], your supervisor, …”

                      Todd Able did contact them, verified their location, and told them to “hunker and be safe.”

                      I assure you that I would have been inquiring about what Marsh and/or the GMHS was up to, what they were doing, their location, etc. because of his past experience of being disingenuous, outright lying, and “deliberately vague” according to SAIT Co-Tea Leader Mike Dudley, addressing those same Utah WFF’s.

                      So, please refresh mine and others’ memories on this matter. Thanks.

              • Robert the Second says


                I disagree. Neither competent or incompetent management would have ensure the GMHS safety that day. Only GMHS could ensured their safety.

                Nobody held a literal or figurative gun to the GMHS’ head(s) – individually or collectively – and forced them to leave the safe black. And retardant air support on the fire and/or on the GMHS especially would have been a near possibility even in ‘perfect’ weather according to French and Burfiend.

                And I agree with Rocksteady and his conclusions on AA. AA cannot order anyone in the air to do anything, They were more like suggestions.


                • says

                  Did politics and Peeple’s Valley landowners play a role in the loss of Yarnell and 19 mens’ lives?

                  If the AA supervisor had not left Peeple’s Valley air space at 3:50 pm on 6/30/2013 perhaps the remaining AA would have flown to Yarnell at that time and reduced some of the destruction that the fire caused and even helped Granite Mountain.

                  I think that AA could have been influenced through political pressure to continue dropping retardant in Peeple’s Valley to protect wealthy ranchers’ property and without their supervisor on site they were free to do that.

                  If this is the case no wonder there is so much GUILT over the loss of these men.

                  • says

                    AA supervisor left Peeples Valley air space—–

                    Could the AA supervisor have left Peeple’s Valley airspace due to a disagreement among AA pilots, ground supervisors etc and himself about continued support in that area after a wind shift and resources being needed in Yarnell?

                    • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

                      Not likely.

                      If you look carefully at all the ‘Air Logs’ that are in the public evidence record… and you ‘add up’ the time that Rory Collins was ‘in the air’ that day… then what Rory Collins himself said about his pilot ‘timing out’ turns out to be TRUE.

                      Rory Collins was not flying the small plane he was in that Sunday over Yarnell.

                      Some other guy ( or gal ) was.

                      After two full investigations… we still don’t really know WHO that ‘pilot’ was that was flying AA Rory Collins around all day Sunday.

                      But if you add up the HOURS in the ‘Aircraft Logs’ for that plane for Sunday, June 30, 2013… then yes… that ‘pilot’ really was about to ‘time out’ circa 4:00 PM on Sunday, June 30, 2013…. and THAT is why Rory Collins had to pass off the AA duties to John Burfiend in ‘Bravo 33’ at 3:58 PM, when Collins and his pilot actually left the Yarnell airspace.

                      I’m not ‘dissing’ any of your theories about who or what might have been fully influencing the air support that day.

                      I’m just saying that when it comes to WHY AA Rory Collins had to leave Yarnell at 3:58 PM… it really does appear to be what he said.

                      His ‘pilot’ had flown all the hours he was ‘allowed’ to that day.

                    • says

                      April 13 reply to WTKTT:

                      Thank you WTKTT for your measured informative reply.
                      I do not feel that you are dissing my theories about what could have happened on the Yarnell Hill fire on 6/30/2013–they are theories to be hashed out ,as you indicated,on this site.
                      Your evidence of the logs totally the amount of hours that Rory Collins’ pilot had flown on 6/30/2013 indicated that indeed his pilot needed to leave at that point for safety reasons,not because of a possible power struggle.
                      Strange that we do not know the pilot’s name-I assume that this was requested in a FOIA.

                • says

                  As I listened to an earlier video where Mike Dudley was speaking to a group of firefighters about the Yarnell Hill Fire he stated that in the box canyon where Granite Mountain was trapped they had fire in back of them and fire in front of them.

                  Where was the fire in back of them coming from?

                  • Robert the Second says


                    There was NO fire in back of them.The SAIT completely made that up.

                    Go to the SAIR link below and to page 77, and the idealized image in Figure 16 allegedly indicating the “Fire splitting with south head entering the middle bowl and north head moving toward the entrapment bowl”


                    This is in step with the ongoing SAIT past practice of first establishing a conclusion and then finding the facts to fit that conclusion in all wildland fire fatality “factual reports” where WFF are killed by fire.

                    • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

                      The world first heard of this “They had fire both BEHIND them and AHEAD of them” theory that the SAIT was coming up with when Darrell Willis towed the line and ‘announced’ it at the first press conference on July 23, 2013.

                      But even in that press conference… Willis only ‘postulated’ that theory to help explain WHY Granite Mountain decided to deploy on the floor of the canyon when he was delivering the ‘narrative’ part of the press conference.

                      In the following Q/A session… Willis went right back to only suggesting they MIGHT have seen fire ‘behind’ them ( up on the ridge where they came from ) and that it only MIGHT have factored into their decision making.

                      See the following additional ‘post’ about this up above…


                  • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

                    Reply to Diane Lomas post on
                    April 20, 2017 at 4:00 pm

                    >> Diane Lomas said…
                    >> As I listened to an earlier video where
                    >> Mike Dudley was speaking to a group
                    >> of firefighters about the Yarnell Hill Fire
                    >> he stated that in the box canyon where
                    >> Granite Mountain was trapped they had
                    >> fire in back of them and fire in front of them.
                    >> Where was the fire in back of them
                    >> coming from?

                    Diane… see a longer ‘Reply’ up above posted as a new ‘Parent Comment’…


            • says

              Please note: This comment includes some of my “theories” for which there is not direct evidence at this time but rather are possibilites that make sense to me and are open to discussion.

              Granite Mountain declined the first time they were requested to move resources to Yarnell to help but shortly after began moving in that direction in spite of the danger . Initially Granite Mountain asked if Blue Ridge could do it as they were closer but since that wasn’t going to happen Granite Mountain took the job after Marsh was pressured by his supervisors and convinced that Granite Mountain was the only unit that could save Yarnell. This argument not only appealed to Marsh’s “can do” spirit and fit in with him needing to prove himself as well as the idea of “risk a lot to save a lot”. He then ordered Steed ,who pointed out the dangers, to move the men.

              What could have overridden their concern for their personal safety??Not only were their jobs on the line but possibly more important to the men was their moral obligation to help if they could.
              With the fire out of control and previous plans failing, Marsh ,in cooperation with others on the fire such as Todd Able and Cortes entered into the Hail Mary plan in a last minute attempt to save Yarnell and the vulnerable residents in that area.

              Aware of the dangers but hoping that with AA support, cooperation from peers and their skills it was worth the risk . They just might have been successful if AA had not remained in Peeple’s Valley for 40 minutes during the critical timeframe when they were directed to Yarnell on the afternoon of 6/30/2013.

              To be continued——

              • says

                Continuation of Yarnell Hill Fire theories—–(again, these are theories based on what could have happened)

                Afternoon of 6/30/2013:
                With fire north of Yarnell in Peeple’s Valley retardant drops were focused in Peeple’s Valley to protect buildings and ranch land in that area. Darryl Willis was coordinating drops from AA up until about 3;50 pm. About this time there was a wind shift which changed the fire threat from the North (Peeple’s Valley area) to the South (Yarnell area). This is when the air attack supervisor left the air space directing remaining AA to head to Yarnell and help out there. AA stayed in Peeple’s Valley instead . The ranchers would have been opposed to this loss of protection for themselves even though the wind shift reduced their threat and would most likely have used political pressure to keep Willis and others dropping retardant in Peeple’s valley rather than allow support to Yarnell. .At this point Willis could have authorized Dan Sullivan or others qualified to continue the drops in Peeple’s Valley while he tended to other fire issues.

                • rocksteady says

                  With the fire behaviour intensities and rates of spread exhibited by this fire, IF, even IF, Air Attack could have got in there, retardant would not have been effective. The spotting from the fire would have jumped across any retardant line they laid.

                  Retardant does not put out fire, it suppresses it. It is put out by men and women with hoses and hand tools.

                  Laying load after load of fire suppression agent (aka retardant) would have been futile and useless. yeah, they could have tried it, but as I said above the spotting would have jumped across the retardant and kept going..

                    • rocksteady says

                      Cause they were in deep shit and knew that they had to try something…

                      Sort of like their attempt to clear out a safe zone, burn off and deploy.

                      They were in deep deep shit and had to try… Did not work..

                  • says

                    Reply to Rocksteady,

                    Rocksteady I believe that you are describing how fire retardant would have been ineffective as fire gathered more strength about 4:30pm

                    Prior to that at about 3:50 pm when AA remained in Peeple’s Valley for another 40 minutes maybe there had been a chance for the retardant to reduce fire to Yarnell
                    structures and possibly help granite mountain. Dropping retardant in Peeple’s Valley after the wind shift at 3:50 pm helped ranchers in that area who had political influence.
                    In my opinion Yarnell and granite mountain didn’t receive the protection they deserved because ranchers and politicians influenced fire managers and others to stay in an area that no longer needed their protection at the expense of another (Yarnell) that desperately needed it.

                    • rocksteady says

                      I have to disagree.

                      When the original fire was doing its thing, the Peeples Valley side was the priority, as it was the active front. Because it was the priority, due to fire behaviour, that is where the retardant was being placed. Once the wind shifted, the South flank then became the head of the fire, thus the active front. However, at that time there was considerable distance for the fire to cover until it reached YArnell.

                      I believe the managers etc on the fire underestimated the potential for the fire to reach Yarnell as aggressively as it did.

                      It still baffles me that based on the forecast weather etc for the day, as well as existing fuel moisture content that the warning signs were ignored. The fire behaviour forecast for the operational period (that was allegedly talked about in the morning briefing), as well as the radio updates from the weather specialist, seem to have gone right over peoples heads.

                      I do not believe that political pressure from ranchers etc made any difference in where the priority was. The priority would always be the value at risk (which may be ranches/homes etc) regardless of location or ownership.

                      Granite did not receive the protection they needed, as you put it because:

                      a) they went black ops and made a move without the overhead knowing it.

                      b) they went rogue, breaking or bending most of the watch outs and fire orders on a “suicide mission” in order to get to Yarnell and help evacuate and then be declared as “heroes”… Well, that was the intention anyways… did not work out as planned.

                      c) they were not following the plans of the morning briefing OR any amendments to the plan that were evolving during the day… “stay in the black, hunker down…”

                    • rocksteady says

                      Even if they had laid retardant along the South side, as you suggest, in those sort of winds it is absolutely no guarantee that spotting would not have occurred across that line.

                      One ember spewing juniper, mesquite, manzanita etc in a wind of 50 mph will cross a 100 foot wide retardant line like it was not there.

                    • says

                      Reply to Rocksteady’s comment about AA dropping retardant in the Yarnell area at 3:50-4:30 pm:

                      You stated that dropping retardant in Yarnell at that time would have been ineffective due to weather conditions etc.—-Then why did Rory Collins suggest that AA fly to Yarnell and “see what they could do there” due to changing weather conditions. He made a point of bringing this to their attention before he left that airspace so he must have been concerned and thought that they could help in spite of the conditions.

                    • Robert the Second says


                      You are correct on all your assumptions and conclusions regarding the GMHS that day

                    • rocksteady says

                      He suggested Rory go there, as an Air Attack has a view of the fire that the ground forces do not. So he was suggesting that if Rory went down there and found suitable, effective targets, that they should be attempted. However I suspect even if he had gone down there, it would have been a no -go due to the weather and smoke.

                      It is a very common practice that if air attack or other aircraft are in the air that ground personnel ask the to “look at things”…. The air attack plane is fast, agile and has an experienced fire person in the passengers seat.

        • Gary Olson says

          I agree 100 percent with my old friend. And I’m pretty darn happy to still see him posting. I was even happier to see my relatively new friend, since I measure most my friends in decades now, Bob Powers make some guest appearances.

          I haven’t gone away, just in case anybody was worried about me. I just haven’t had anything worthwhile to add for quite some time, although I know that hasn’t ever stopped me before, but people do change.

          I am still willing to be a good listener who will promise anyone who wants to share with me anonymity, although I won’t keep what you tell me a secret. There are too many people who have already made that deal with the Devil. : )

          • says

            Some of my ” theories”” are stated in a post on IM on the afternoon of April 8
            This includes leaving the black and AA..
            There has been push back from RTS which is fine-all part of a good discussion I think.

            Looking forward to your reactions,

            • Gary Olson says

              Yes, I agree with your theory on why the crew left the black (if I remember right, Steed refused twice and had to ordered to do it a third time) except I would add to “Marsh ,in cooperation with others on the fire such as Todd Able and Cortes entered into the Hail Mary plan in a last minute attempt to save Yarnell and the vulnerable residents in that area.”

              And here I would add “Or at least look good while trying even though any reasonable WF at their collective fire experience either did know, or should have know that their efforts didn’t have a chance of succeeding under those fire conditions and other circumstances…so heavy on the look good trying.”

              I know you have suggested AA stayed up north in an effort to protect rich and influential ranch owners at the expense of the town, that may be true, I just hope its not because that would be much worse than my lowest opinion of those who were involved such as Willis.

              I can also tell you that IMHO, no reasonable and experienced line WF would ever attempt such a risky maneuver based on hoping they get air support because air support is so fickle and dependent on so many uncontrollable variables.

              I never assumed air attack would be able to help us on the line ever, and so they never disappointed me. I’m not saying that could not have been Marsh’s plan, I am just saying that anybody who did that would have to have a death wish.

              I can also tell you that in my four years of fire management once I was off the line as a grunt, I never experienced, or even heard of, or suspected that fire teams were putting that kind of priority on private land, but Arizona Division of Forestry is a highly political organization and they might be susceptible to that kind of pressure from people like Maughn, Pierce and Fann.

              And Willis survived as the Fire Chief of a inbred small town fire chief for about 15 years…so I do know he was and still is very savvy at playing in cut throat political circles. And even when he was fired as Chief, he was given a Golden Parachute that would make anyone envious…including me. So…if we ever find out that is what really happened, I will neither be surprised or disappointed. I will just say, “That figures.”

              And please keep in mind, my old friend RTS, is an apologist for “them” depending on who “them” are and what day of the week it is, bless his heart, but nobody is perfect. Some of them he guts and some of them he lets live, bless his heart.

      • says

        A friend in Tucson just let me know about the fire on Mt. Lemmon-started in Molino Basin a few days ago and is now called “Shovel Fire” which appears to be further north on Mt. Lemmon.

        Mesa IHC working both fires

  22. rocksteady says

    Reposting the question, as it got buried under some Trump political/absolutely non fire related posts..

    So has there been any significant push for fuels management activities around communities since the Yarnell Fire????

    Being that its all chaparral, manzanita, mesquite (whatever) that has zero timber value, why not go out and treat areas around communities to 1000 yards (be it with mechanical mulching or prescribed fire) and then maintain it thru fire or what have you every 3 to 5 years???

    Just looking at photos and maps, seems to be pretty easy ground that a large mulcher type machine could do a lot of ground in a day…

    • Gary Olson says

      Do I detect just a hint of recrimination? OK…fair enough. And yes, I saw your question but I did not take a stab at it because there was a whole bunch of discussion a while back on exactly that and it is far too complicated and nuanced for me to try and explain, so someone like Joy, Sonny or WTKTT need to point you to where it was at…because it was a lot.

      And it had to do with large amounts of grant money perhaps being misspent and maybe just outright fraud from Chief Ben D’Over and gross exaggeration of what was accomplished becyaseJoy and Sonny could not see what they had claimed to accomplish on the ground or get them to give up budgets, and accounting records by FOIA. It sounds like it was a real mess.

      • Gary Olson says

        Oh…and one more thing. You are going to have to start worrying about Trump soon enough because I am pretty sure after we invade Australia and Mexico…Canada is next! Sure, yeah, yeah becha…so heads up Canuck!

      • rocksteady says

        Yeah, I remember that there were issues of the $ being handed over but no treatments being done…

        I was just wondering if the practice had come to the forefront and been implemented to help protect communities? as it is apparent that all of the fire fighting resources in the world can’t stop some fires…

        The Trump stuff to me is pure entertainment… I have no ability to vote him in or out, so just watch the “show” and either laff my arse off or shake my head, depending on what he is saying or doing at that particular moment…

        • Gary Olson says

          You have the right attitude brother. That’s pretty much where I am at as well. He can’t restore the USA to where we were and who we were in the 1950’s. And just as soon as his supporters accept that one simple fact…he will become a footnote, albeit a very bad one in our nations colorful and tumultuous history.

          When thinking about what we do sometimes, I like to remember what Sir Winston Churchill said about Americans and that was we always do the right thing, but only after exhausting all other possibilities.

          • says

            Reply to Gary Olson and WTKTT about Granite Mountain Hot shots autopsies:

            After reading your comments as to what torture the hotshots endured rather than instant death I am wondering if that is why the autopsy reports were so long in coming out—–the effect the reports may have had on lawsuits rather than privacy issues.

            So glad that folks like Gary and WTKTT are providing their input as well as JD to get the truth out.

            • Gary Olson says

              They said it was to protect the privacy of the families. I have no interest in protecting the privacy of the families, but I have a lot of interest in acknowledging how the hotshots died and all of the circumstances surrounding their deaths in the public interest of preventing this from happening a fourth time.

              I personally think it was to protect the privacy of the agencies and their employees who were responsible for all of the contributing factors in those deaths.

                • says

                  I apologize if my question below seems repetitive but the answer is not clear to me. The 40 minutes that air attack stayed in Peeple’s Valley at 3;50 p.m. on 6/30/2013 seems like the “elephant in the room” that could have made a difference for Granite Mountain.

                  If air attack had flown to the Yarnell area at 3:50 pm on 6/30/2013 , as directed by their supervisor, what would have been the chances of saving Granite Mountain?

                    • says

                      Hi Bob,
                      Good to see you jump on here with all your experience.
                      You mentioned that air attack did not fly to Yarnell at 3:50 p.m. on 6/30/2013 because no one knew the location of Granite Mountain. As I recall air attack was directed at that time to Yarnell to assist with changing conditions in Yarnell area–Granite Mountain wasn’t mentioned.
                      So why didn’t air attack fly over that area as directed? In moving from Peeple’s Valley to Yarnell they may have caught sight of the yellow shirts or something else identifying Granite Mountain—AA did not leave Peeple’s Valley for another 40 minutes when conditions had badly deteriorated due to smoke, wind and fire.
                      Unless there is information that I am missing AA did not even try to comply with directives to at least help Yarnell and in the process may have helped Granite Mountain.

                    • says


                      I understand that by the time that AA arrived in the Yarnell area at about 4:30 p.m. 6/30/2013 there would have been considerably more smoke and fire than at 3:50 pm when they were first directed to Yarnell limiting visibility on the ground. What I dont understand is why AA didn’t follow their supervisor’s directive and fly directly to Yarnell at 3:50 p.m. What delayed them in Peeple’s Valley for 40 minutes and how can we find out?

                    • rocksteady says

                      Diane, something that non fire folks don’t seem to understand is that even though it appears quasi military, the fire fighting game is not as strict as some are reading into it.

                      Air attack was working on Peebles Valley, trying to complete a mission, the outgoing air attack said “take a run down to Yarnell and see what you can do there”…

                      That was not a “direct order”. One air attack to another is not a command position, so in all reality it was more of a suggestion. Air attack is spinning around in the air, assessing fire movement and behaviour and deciding what is the best usage of the incoming loaded air tankers. Firefighting is a very dynamic activity, making changes and split second decisions is very common.

                      The air attack that took over felt it was important to finish off the Peebles Valley assignment (leaving a retardant line incomplete leaves opportunity for escapes to sneak around and bite you in the butt), as well, from what I have read, he had no idea that Granite Mountain was down to the South. From all accounts, the other fire fighting forces were evacuating the Yarnell area, so air attack did not realize that there were 19 guys in the middle of nowhere in trouble. Communications on this fire were an absolute cluster. A full hot shot crew going “black ops” and moving from one flank of a fire to another without supervisors knowing of the move is absolutely unheard of.

                      It just is not done… If they would have survived, they would have been fired.

        • says

          Ranchers in vicinity of Yarnell hill fire —did anyone influence air attack to remain in the Peeples Valley in the timeframe of 3:50-5p.m. When air attack was directed to assist in Yarnell?

          • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

            There is no evidence currently in the public record that would support that… but since there is also still no evidence or testimony that explains WHY ‘Bravo 33’ ( John Burfiend, Thomas French and Clint Cross ) did NOT proceed down to the Yarnell side of the fire when they were TOLD to do so by their Air Attack Supervisor ( Rory Collins ) at 3:50 PM… I suppose anything is still possible.

            • says

              The ranchers had the most to benefit from the additional air attack support during that timeframe . Makes me wonder if the outcome could have been different for granite mountain if air attack had flown to the Yarnell area when they were directed to.

                  • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

                    Circa NOON, when the first VLAT arrived, the answer is yes.

                    ‘Bravo 3’ became the air attack at that time ( when Rory Collins had to leave Yarnell and go refuel )… and Rusty Warbis and Paul Lenmark absolutely confirmed to ADOSH investigators that they were coordinating those first VLAT drops of the day with someone on the ground named ‘Darrell Willis’.

                    But the ‘ground contacts’ for the rest of the afternoon remain a bit of a mystery.

                    There is SOME evidence that, as the retardant drops continued throughthroughout the afternoon there on the NORTH side of the fire that the ‘ground contacts’ varied and included a list of people such as ( but not even limited to ) OPS1 Todd Abel, SPGS2 Darrell Willis, OPS2 Paul Missed, Fireman Corey Moser… etc. etc.

              • says

                Second thoughts about air attack’s delay in flying to Yarnell area at 3:50 p.m. on 6/30/2013——–

                Could it have been a safety concern for planes dropping the retardant?

                I am reading in My Lost Brothers that ” a pilot can only fly a few feet above the ground when he’s carrying the slurry. A lot of the time, he’s putting the aircraft through severe updrafts and plumes of hot ash rising from the fire. Those plumes cause turbulence.”

                Does this statement apply only to the DC-10s or can it also pertain to the aircraft that the air attack crew were flying that day?

                • says

                  Not sure if the statement above about the need for air attack to fly at low altitude for retardant drops is accurate—maybe someone who has time can weigh in.

                  • rocksteady says

                    I have experience with air tankers and retardant drop but am not an air attack officer, but here is my thoughts.

                    The tankers do not drop from too low down for several reasons a) safety of course. If something goes wrong in the plane they need the extra altitude in order to try to make a safe landing somewhere. b) The retardant, when released comes from a confined tank, and requires time to spread, in order to provide effective coverage. If it the plane was too low, it would just be a big old mud pie hitting the ground.

                    From my experience, the tankers drop at approximately 100 feet above tree top, however with there not being any real trees in Yarnell, they would not have been 100 feet off the ground only. Mud pie would have been the result.

                    Each aircraft has specific parameters of how high they fly when they release the load, based on air speed, based on release system (belly tank or MAFFS, etc) as well as the desired coverage level on the forest fuels targeted.

                    If you look at the video footage of the supertanker dropping on Yarnell or other fires, you can see that they are not flying too low.

                    An experienced air attack officer, such as Bob Powers (HEY! Anyone seen Bob around?? )….would be able to provide more technical data.

                    • says

                      If I understand correctly Bravo 33 would have been a smaller plane but capable of making retardant drops.
                      In your opinion would the weather and fire conditions at 3:50-4:15 p.m. on 6/30/2013 have created unsafe flying conditions for Bravo 33 to fly from Peeple’s Valley to Yarnell and participate in retardant drops during that time?

                    • rocksteady says

                      Bravo 33 was a Lead Plane or Bird Dog plane. It is a small twin engine plane, not capable of dropping retardant. It is an overhead supervisory aircraft.

              • says


                Earlier on this blog Gary Olson mentioned the issue of minimalizing regarding issues on the Yarnell Hill Fire.

                With Gary’s background as an investigator I trust that he can give us insight into this factor as it affects covering up what we still don’t know about this fire.

                My question is—-how do we effectively deal with minimalizing in our efforts to reveal the truth?

                • Gary Olson says

                  We can’t. I tried…I lost. They won. They hold all of the cards, but thanks for thinking of me. You can’t fight city hall.

                  Or in this case, the city, county, state and federal governments. Public opinion, private opinion, family’s opinions, WF community opinion, non WF community opinion, mainstream media opinion. You name it.

                  • says

                    Does this mean that we are left to come to our own conclusions based on the few facts that we have ?

                    If so, I have a few theories that I would like to put out there for what it is worth.

                    • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

                      Fire away with any ‘theories’ you like. This is probably the best place to ‘hash them out’.

                      There are MANY people following this ongoing discussion who are familiar with the ‘existing’ evidence ( and the lack thereof ).

                    • Gary Olson says

                      Well…I was probably being a little overly pessimistic, I just meant I can’t solve the case like I thought I could when I started.

                      Everything that happened on the God forsaken Yarnell Hill Fire will eventually be known, it’s just taking longer than I hoped it would.

                      If two people know a secret, it will usually only stay a secret if one of them is dead. I think there are a lot of people who know everything that happened on the YHF.

                      But in any case, I agree with the Wizard, I would love to read your theories.

            • says

              Would an air attack supervisor have authority over air attack personnel?
              When Roy Collins directed Bravo 33 to fly to Yarnell to address the situation there would he have more authority than an air attack crew or was Bravo 33 empowered to disregard his communication and make their own decisions?

              • Rockstea says

                It is not a matter of disregarding communications. It is more like here are the objectives, do what you can based on weather, visibility, resources, chance of success etc etc.

                • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

                  But there are STILL times when the ‘Air Attack’ can/should outright TELL his ‘Lead Plane’ to change the priorities and TELL the ‘Air Support’ under his/her command what to do.

                  And that is exactly what happened in Yarnell at 3:50 PM.

                  The current/active/designated ‘Air Attack’ ( Rory Collins ) TOLD his ‘Lead Plane’ ( pilot = Thomas French ) to switch priority to the Yarnell side of the fire.

                  Thomas French ( and John Burfiend ) in ‘Bravo 33’ even SAID they were then ( and immediately ) “headed that way”…

                  …but they did no such thing.

                  It took them another 40 minutes before they even bothered to ‘fly down’ to the Yarnell side to even begin evaluating the situation.

  23. Gary Olson says

    Dear Woodsman,

    I know you are fearless, but are you scared yet? I am, in fact…I am terrified something is very wrong and I am powerless to do anything about it. I need a hug.

    Please pray for our constituional federal representative democracy also commonly known as a Constitutional Republic. I’m afraid all hope is lost.

    Thank you, your old friend, comrade-in-arms seperated by time and space and brother from another mother. I hope to see you on the other side when this veil of tears is finally lifted.


    Gary, AKA Big G, the Jackhammer, El Oslo, Dad, Pappa, Pappy, Big G little O, El Jefe, Fuckin’ Asshole and too many others to list in this format.

    • Gary Olson says

      Oh…and one more thing. Almost everyday there is something so alarming on the MSM it makes me pee pee a little bit on myself. How is that even possible? I mean…almost every DAY!

      • Gary Olson says

        I learned a long time ago to NEVER ask the question I don’t want to know the answer to, but I am going to break that rule. Is this what you had in mind when you helped elect Our Dear Leader?

        I mean…every reasonable person suspected he was Arizona Road Lizard CRAZY, but he is exceeding everyone’s expectations…by a lot.

        Here is just one really small example that struck a chord with me because of my age.

        You do know they were shipping Australians home in body bags from our war in the former colony of French Indochina that was run Michelin to make tires while that coke whore was snortin’ lines and bangin’ models in Club 54 (or was it bangin’ lines of coke and snortin’ whores…I bet he was too fucked up most of the time to know the difference) on five (5) separate bogus deferments his daddy Morebucks paid for…right?

        What kind of an American can’t get along with the Australians for God’s sake! What comes next…declaring war on Canada? I mean…the cray fuck has already threatened to invade Mexico. I would support that if his Spawn of Satan ( Don Jr. and Eric) will lead the invasion force.

        • Gary Olson says

          I really hate to make this personal for you Woodsman, but you are my people. And I pray to God you don’t have any sons and maybe any daughters if you help that madman get another four years as the most powerful person on the planet and maybe even finish out his first four.

          From your descriptions of where you live (rural Red America), your job (working class) and your socioeconomic status…your kids are exactly who that madman will send to die in a foreign land for reasons you won’t even be able to understand once you strip the red, white and blue bunting off of his lies.

          I’m not even going down the road that there is no question in my mind he has been fully compromised by the Russian intelligence services and Putin owns him…that is too scary for me to even think about for very long…whoops, I just had a little accident and it wasn’t just a little pee pee. I pissed all over myself thinking about what Putin is going to get him to do to us…fuck me and call me Sally!

          • Gary Olson says

            Whoops, I was too shook up from pissing myself to even get my very own catch phrase I made up right,

            Fuck me silly and call me Sally! (C. G. Olson, Circa 1976)

            • Gary Olson says

              OK…I want you to stay with me for just a little while longer. YOU people voted for Trump because he is such a great businessman who makes great decisions, picks the best people, and will do the best job to make America Great Again…right?

              I want you to think about something with complete and total objectivity for just a few minutes…OK.

              President Trump selected the point man for his administration and our entire nation to be the guy who didn’t stop to think that the phone calls and text messages he is making to the fuckin’ Russian Ambassador to the United States are going to be monitored by our intelligence services in and around Washington D.C.!!!

              This same guy was a Three Star General and was in charge of military intelligence for our war of choice in Iraq for God’s sake! And then he ran the Defense Intelligence Agency, which is just one (1) of something like seventeen (17) separate U.S. Intelligence services that are all headquartered within a 50 mile radius of where the fuckin’ Russian Ambassador normally operate

              I mean…everyone who doesn’t live in a Cone Of Silence knows (thanks to Edward Snowden if for no other reason AND the movie they made about him) that the NSA listens to what everybody says whenever the fuck they want to. That is how they put those Hellfire misses from the Predator and Reaper drones down the dung burning stove pipes of those Islamic terrorists and send them them to hell while their playin’ stinky finger.with each other in shit hole backwater of the tribal lands in all of those shithole “Stan” countries like Arizonistan.

              Who the fuck doesn’t about that and you don’t have to be a former Lt. General who ran G2 for all of Iraq…you just have to go to the fuckin’ movies once in a while or whatch TV…sometimes.

              And then he gets caught…gee whiz, who the fuck could see that one coming…assures our Vice President he only talked about the weather and never even brought up, “oh yeah, and don’t worry about those sanctions because they are good as gone when we get in office…so”, so the VP goes on all of the talk shows and puts his credibility with the American people on the line…and now he can’t be sure he didn’t talk about lifting the sanctions with the fuckin’ Russian Ambassador because he can’t remember what they talked about.

              Forget about all of the reasons why this was a bad idea and how many laws were violated…and just think about how FUCKIN’ STUPID CAN THIS FLYN GUY CAN BE?

              But he can’t be stupid…that isn’t possible. They say he was the greatest intelligence officer of his generation. So…then, you have to ask yourself just how bad is his JUDGEMENT AND JUST HOW BAD IS THE JUDGEMENT OF THE MAN WHO MADE SOMEONE LIKE THAT THE POINT MAN FOR ALL U.S. INTELLIGENCE THAT IS SUPPOSED TO KEEP ALL OF US SAFE!

              What the fuck am I missing in this equation?

              • Gary Olson says

                Well…even I can recognize my Trump Tracking is NOT healthy so I am going to check out again. It’s just been raining and cold here in the Dunes so I have been watching Way to much of the lyin’ fake news MSM.

                I really do need to switch over and start drinking the Fox News(?) Kool Aid. Where cain I order that anyway? Does it come in a powder that is water soluble? Or is it more like a big tube of shit I have to squeeze into my mouth?

                I am guessing from the Woodsman’s rant about Whoopee do fuckin’ ding dong are we going to start following the Constitution now…fuck me silly and call me Sally (paraphrased) that he was referring to Obama’s use of Presidential Orders to circumvent Congress, but that is just a guess?

                So…my question is (after noting Our Dear Leaders excessive use of Presidential Orders in his first three years in office, it has been at least that long…right? Frankly, I have lost track of time) do two Constitutional Wrongs make a Constitutional Right?

                And I didn’t make it through today without making a little pee pee on myself when I heard Our Dear Leader was openly discussing the latest North Korean missle crisis in public in a busy restaurant with the Prime Minister of Japan and it looked like the New England Patriots owner Bob (if you aren’t cheating, you aren’t trying hard enough) Kraft and their bimbo’s, I mean Mrs. Abe and Our Dear Leaders bimbo.

                I wonder what level of security clearance most of the people in that restaurant have? I know what I had to go through every five years to keep my Top Secret security clearance and it was about as pleasant as I would imagine it would be to have a gerbil crawl up my ass (please note how I worded that although IF I ever did have a gerbil crawl up my ass, I would tell you because you are among my closest friends and confidants and I am off the Rez so I have nothing to hide…anymore)!

                Some of the fake news MSM call Mar-a-Largo Our Dear Leaders “estate” and nothing could be further from the truth. Anybody with an Amex card and more money than brains (unless they have an ulterior motives…say like about half of the worlds security services including those of our “friends and allies, if the fuckin’ Canadians are smart they will start tracking Our Dear Leaders calls and conversations) in addition to all of the people who pay the two hundred grand to have memberships there (at Mar-a-Largo) so whatever Mar-a-Largo is…it is not Trumps estate…it is a commercial hotel and resort with a fancy restaurant where they won’t let my people stay or even eat (sorry Woodsman) and they serve snails and fish eggs and call it food.

              • Gary Olson says

                Sooooooooo……who out there in cyber land thinks Lt. General Michael Flynn who was a three star career military lifer who lived and died for his entire adult life by a strict chain-of-command thinks he was on a one mission to interface with the fuckin’ Russians on his own accord…a loose cannon?

                And who thinks he was on a specific mission under the direct control of POTUS and was acting on and speaking on his behalf, with not only his knowledge and support, but acting under his (POTUS) direct control?


                • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

                  Reply to Gary Olson says
                  February 13, 2017 at 10:11 pm

                  >> Reply to Gary Olson…
                  >> Sooooooooo……who out there in cyber land
                  >> thinks Lt. General Michael Flynn who was
                  >> a three star career military lifer who lived
                  >> and died for his entire adult life by a strict
                  >> chain-of-command thinks he was on a one
                  >> mission to interface with the fuckin’ Russians
                  >> on his own accord…a loose cannon?

                  And just HOURS after the man he and his boss think was born in Kenya actually ‘announced’ the ‘sanctions’ for the known ‘help’ another country gave in getting them elected?

                  Hmmmm…. let me see…

                  ( Hand NOT raised ).

                  >> And who thinks he was on a specific mission
                  >> under the direct control of POTUS and was
                  >> acting on and speaking on his behalf, with not
                  >> only his knowledge and support, but acting
                  >> under his (POTUS) direct control?

                  ( Hand raised ).

                  And if anyone also thinks ( tonight ) that the ‘resignation’ negotiations that were obviously going on all today didn’t include some ‘promise’ of a PARDON for Flynn if/when he is arrested for violating the Logan Act and/or arrested for outright TREASON…

                  …then ( as I said in my other post a