Chapter I, Chapter II, Chapter II supplement, Chapter III, Chapter IV, Chapter V, Chapter VI, Chapter VII, Chapter VIII , Chapter IX, Chapter X, Chapter XI, Chapter XII , Chapter XIII, Chapter XIV, Chapter XV, Chapter XVI, Chapter XVII, Chapter XVIII, Chapter XIX, Chapter XX, Chapter XXI, Chapter XXII, Chapter XXIII and Chapter XXIV.
© Copyright 2017 John Dougherty, All rights Reserved. Written For: Investigative MEDIA
Cheerleader says
The “bait-and-switch”
from the surprisingly
frank Burn-Baby-Burn
“reincarnated”
Woodsman of Olde
into the “far safer and more politically correct”
Critic of Managerial Oversight Responsibility
(equally valid, tho’ it may be)
would seem to best be described, thusly…
“What are we
DOING
or
NOT DOING
to make BURN-BABY-BURN
more likely to be accident free
while providing an efficient service to THOSE taxpayers NOT
living in the Wildland-Urban-Interface, when it comes to wildfires in the US?”
WantsToKnowTheTruth says
** NEW CHAPTER XXVI ( 26 )
New Chapter XXVI ( 26 ) has been started.
As always… many thanks to John Dougherty and InvestigativeMEDIA for the
continuing patience and support for this ongoing discussion.
Direct jumplink to the new chapter…
http://www.investigativemedia.com/please-begin-yarnell-hill-fire-chapter-xxvi-here/
WantsToKnowTheTruth says
On March 29, 2018 at 10:19 pm, Robert the Second (RTS) said…
>> Good stuff Gary,
>>
>> Here is a link for Leadership and Biographical information on Dr. Putnam.
>>
>> https://www.fireleadership.gov/toolbox/leaders_meet/interviews/leaders_TedPutnam.html
>>
>> I will follow up at another time with his article titled:
>> “Accidents, accident guides, stories and the truth.”
>>
>> This amazing paper is published in the Proceedings of 11th International
>> Wildland Fire Safety Summit, April 4-8, 2011, Missoula, Montana, USA;
>> Published by the International Association of Wildland Fire,
>> Missoula, Montana, USA
Here is a link to where that ( full ) paper by Dr. Ted Putnam can be downloaded…
Eleventh International Wildland Fire Safety Summit
April 4-8, 2011 Hilton Garden Inn Missoula, MT
Promoting the Story of Wildland Fire Safety.
Presentation Title: Accidents, Accident Guides, Stories and the Truth
Presented By: Dr. Ted Putnam, Mindful Solutions
http://s000.tinyupload.com/?file_id=05262454341263280395
Robert the Second says
WTKTT,
Thank you for once again using your sleuth skills to locate Dr. Putnam’s paper and post a very unique link for it.
PLEASE TAKE THE TIME TO READ DR. PUTNAM’S PAPER AND WHAT HE HAS TO SAY ABOUT ACCIDENT AND FATALITY INVESTIGATIONS AND THE COVER-UPS THAT ARE A MAINSTAY OF THE OSTENSIBLE “FACTUAL” INVESTIGATIONS AND SAIRs!
“Accident Investigation Concerns
Although it seems obvious that accident investigations should strive to uncover the actual causes and conditions that led to the accident, this is seldom attempted let alone advocated in the relevant agency investigation guides used by wildland fire and other organizational (Airlines, NASA, Military, etc.) accident investigators. Failure to look for all discoverable causes and conditions leads to accident reports that are superficial in understanding or missing vital information on what really occurred as well as why it occurred. It is relevant for individuals and organizations to look at what accident guides investigations are focusing on compared to what
they could and ought to be focusing on. Specifically, we ignore the impact of the individual’s cognitive processing on accident causation.”
“Historically wildland fire entrapment investigations have operated with strong biases and typically left out entire quadrants of analysis, i.e. the cultural and intentional quadrants. Often these actions involve deceptive accounts but sometimes they involve misleading accounts. Why do people and agencies do this?”
“From accounts of [1949] Mann Gulch the only person known to be at the bottom of Mann Gulch, about the time the “spot fire” ignited, was the district ranger as he himself testified. What is noteworthy is that only the district ranger was allowed to talk about the spot fires in the bottom of Mann Gulch. At the Board of Review hearing NO ONE WAS ALLOWED TO CONTRADICT OR QUESTION THE RANGER’S STORY.” (EMPHASIS ADDED)
Unbelievable! THIS is the investigation where the “FIRST ESTABLISH A CONCLUSION, THEN FIND THE “FACTS” TO FIT IT” means of hiding the truth began resulting in a FULL cover=up.
“A Fire Expert who wanted to observe the spot-fires’ origins was FORBIDDEN TO DO SO BY THE TEAM LEADER, since it was not in the scope of the investigation. In the case of the Board of Review it is what they ignore and don’t talk about that screams of a cover-up.” (EMPHASIS ADDED)
“My summary points are that MANN GULCH WAS AN ELABORATE COVER-UP FROM THE START, did little to help future firefighters and mostly protected upper level managers and the Agency’s images. I invite readers to go back and take a more thorough look at the available evidence and to realize, like I have, that the Mann Gulch investigation set the pattern for later fatality investigations, namely that it is ok to cover-up the truth and blame firefighters and fire behavior than mental errors, cultures, managers or organizations. If our accident investigations don’t promote finding and telling the Truth then Lessons Learned, firefighter safety and High
Reliability Organizations are just convenient buzz words; lullabies numbing us out rather than keeping us awake to underlying conditions and causal elements which best account for our collective firefighter realities.” (EMPHASIS ADDED)
Dr. Putnam then goes on to discuss the partial cover-ups and whitewash of the 1994 South Canyon Fire and why he refused to sign the report.
“Thus the South Canyon report has elements of deliberate cover-ups like Mann Gulch and elements of partial cover-ups, with the promise that another report is coming and “trust us to fix the problems later.” No later team report was written.”
Dr. Putnam also reveals untold truths about the Alabaugh Canyon Fire (2007) in South Dakota that resulted in a fire shelter deployment and burns to two WFs and the Crandall Ranger Station tree felling accident in 2010.
Dr. Putnam and I disagree on the value of the tried-and-true WF Rules, especially the “10 and 18.” I hold that they work every time you utilize the Ten Standard Orders and observe, recognize, and mitigate the 18 Watch Outs. Tens of thousands of WF and Supervisors successfully utilize the 10 and 18 every single fire season.
After all, the fire signals to you what it is going to do — every time.
Gary Olson says
Yes, thank you WTKTT.
And I never stated this specifically in my meandering diatribe down below, but the reason, and the only reason, the Battlement Creek Fire Staff Ride Developement Committee was nasty to me while Shawna was so sweet to me, because she is such a smooth operator, is because I started insisting they were on the wrong track with the lessons that should have been learned from the Battlement Crrpreek Fire and they were in the early stages of designing a Staff Ride based on factually incorrect information.
Shawna wasn’t the only whore (non gender specific) on that committee, every one of them were agency and system whores (non gender specific), Shawna was just the Whore-In-Charge (WIC), which was of course is non gender specific. The non gender specific whores were her henchmen who did her dirty work while she treated me with kindness and respect as she humored me right up to the point of telling the truth about the Battlement Creek Fire.
And what is really, really, neat…is the fact I re-read my “Smoking Gun” document the other day that proves the Battlement Creek Fire Investigative Report was a cover up, and it also proves I came right out of the starting gate advocating to have the true story told during the Staff Ride.
And when you read the Smoking Gun document, please keep in mind that although it is specifically is about the Battlement Creek Fire, it is an proof and therefore an indictment of how corrupt the entire system is because it is run by fire gods who are WIC’s who have corrupt hearts and intent.
Not corrupt intent in the sense they are directly receiving things of value for their systemic corruption and gross mismanagement from outside sources, their unethical pay offs come in the form of promotions and other related benefits that even their retirement in based on, so they are whores until death.
I need to go back through my records and find their names and post them here on this thread as part of the historical record of the people who have blood on their hands from the Yarnell Hill Fire.
Speaking of having bloody hands, I can’t help but wonder if I have blood on my hands as well? Could I have done more to force them to tell the truth, should I have done that instead of resigning from that committee? Am I complicit in the deaths of the Granite Mountain Hotshots? Of course I am…not only did I resign from that corrupt committee rather than stay and fight, I helped build that entire corrupt system, I was on of those who were “in” as the Woodsman wrote.
Gary Olson says
Oh…and one more thing. The last meeting I had with BLM State Director, (who is the equivelant of a Regional Forester in the USFS) was regarding how to handle a felony investigation of a mining company operating on your Public Lands that I had been supervising.
So…what did I do after the meeting instead of calling “60 Minutes?” I went out with the Case Agent who was assigned to conduct the investigation and I instructed him to dig a hole. And then together and under my direction, we buried one more body for the BLM.
When I went to work for the BLM, we agreed on what I was, the only thing left for us to negotiate was which specific acts was willing to perform and for how much money.
#Complicit
Gary Olson says
Except I wasn’t in the situation poor FBI Special Agent Andy McCabe was in and 24 hours from retirement when they got him, I had a,ready reached full retirement age several years earlier, my finish line was artificially imposed by me.
But…when the BLM tried to find mental health professionals to find me unfit for duty, I was several years short of making it to my minimum retirement age and if they would have been successful, I would have been fired because my guns, credentials and Top Secret Security Clearance all would have been permanently taken away from me instead of just during my testing period.
I’m telling you straight up…the BLM has mostly .world class motherfuckers running that sorry agency because like I said, they are political appointees. Although some USFS managers can come close, even though they are career professionals who came up through the ranks. At some point, everyone who goes any higher has to be willing to at least compromise their integrity at least som of the time…am I right Mr. Mike Dudley? 🙂
Woodsman says
Yes, Gary, you’re complicit. That’s the bad news. The good news is you are MORE than making up for it by having the brass ones to tell the truth. Hell, I don’t think you even knew the truth until much later when you had the time to really take it all in. If it makes you feel better I wasn’t able to see the truth until recently myself. We get caught up in the system until one day we say to ourselves, ” hey! Wait just a fucking minute! DO WHAT??” I’m as guilty as you are, friend. We are awake now. That’s one of the primary reasons why I’m so pissed off. We’ve been had.
RTS is guilty too. We are responsible. BUT, it’s never too late to make a change. We got this….together. Technology has increased our odds for success.
Now back to my anger management therapy.
THE Woodsman
Gary Olson says
No…when I started this “journey” more than five years ago, I primarily blamed Darrell Willis and the Prescott Fire Department. Now I understand they are just symptons of the disease, not the disease themselves.
And to quote the comic strip Pogo, “We have met the enemy and he is us.”
I honestly and truly believe that if we can finally admit what was really primarily responsible for the hotshots deaths on the Loop, Battlement Creek and Yarnell Hill Fires, it really will make a huge difference in whether the fourth hotshot disaster ever occurs.
Hotshots will still be killed and seriously hurt on fires due to inherently dangerous circumstances like occurred on the South Canyon Fires and the tragic tree strikes, which sounds like they were certainly preventable deaths.
On a side note, most hotshot sawyers aren’t really professional fallers, especially when falling really big trees under complex conditions. The men who are really trained and experienced to do that highly technical work come as contractors from the logging industry who have thousands of hours of experience and on the job training in falling. Hotshots sawyers get a lot of saw time, but most of isnt actually dropping trees, especially the really big ones.
But like so many other things on this thread, those are side issues. They are very important issues, like “How Big Is Big Enough”, but they aren’t the primary issues here.
Admitting you have a problem…we all know is the first step in correcting that problem. We have a problem….let’s take steps to correct it!
Woodsman says
To expand on my statement, it’s not a simple process of placing each other in the appropriate “box” labeled COMPLICIT or NON-COMPLICIT as my words may be interpreted. We are all located somewhere on the spectrum of complicity, from very little to “all in.” It can be logically argued that even ‘civilians’ share complicity in fireline fatalities. When you examine people’s expectations of firefighters in protection of the forest resource and minimizing the impacts to private property, it simply must be considered by any rational human.
Using myself as an example, on July 28, 2002 I was on a crew as a basic firefighter near Happy Camp, CA engaged in the Stanza fire. 3 USFS engine crew members lost their lives when their engine lost traction at the edge of the road and rolled down the mountain. There were many causal factors to this accident. Has it bothered me since that night? You DAMN STRAIGHT it has! Even as an FFT2 (basic) I knew at the time of the hazard of that section of road due to the width, surface, and trouble with traffic on it. Adding smoke and darkness, it’s identified hazards killed three good people because management wasn’t sharp enough to change the way firefighters were using that section of road. BUT, I was a brand new guy, what the heck do I know? Double-BUT, I didn’t speak up other than to my crew boss. I certainly didn’t do everything in my power to stop it and it 100% could have and should have been stopped.
It takes time and experience for firefighters to build the toolbox that allows them to SEE…not merely observe but SEE! Until most gain this, through time spent on the line, we MUST rely on leadership to SEE FOR US and not merely OBSERVE!!!! Not only that, they must speak up about it and change how we are operating in the fire environment in response to the visual factors identified in the changing nature of wildfires.
Too many put their own self interests first as considerations for money, advancement, and to GO ALONG TO GET ALONG. The non-boat rockers possess something or things that are apparently more important than doing the right thing even though it may mean negative consequences personally. I’ve believed for a tragically long period of time that, as a wildfifre community, when it comes to safety: WE TALK THE TALK BUT WE DON’T WALK THE WALK!!! This must change or more will die in the future in similar incidents due to the human factors of sub-standard decision-making under stress.
So what does it take to effect real change in the business of wildland firefighting in the US? Courage and SELFLESSNESS!!! It takes people with their head on straight who have the intestinal fortitude to be able to tell management to shove it, “the people I’m responsible for ARE NOT going to do that!” In other words it takes the individual to first change themselves and others will follow. (thank you Mr. P)
In summary, the claim I made that you, me, RTS, and nearly everyone in this business is complicit in covering up after accidents is a very complicated matter. We should ask each other: “What are we DOING or NOT DOING to make wildland firefighting more likely to be accident free while providing an efficient service to the taxpayers when it comes to wildfires in the US?”
What are you doing to prevent injury/deaths on the fireline? What have you NOT done about it? Why? Give yourself an honest self-assessment. We have become specialists at lying to ourselves! We’ve got that down pat!
If you are responsible for others as a fireline leader, and you have concrete evidence of serial cover-ups by management in nearly every single major fireline accident investigation (and if you don’t by now, you must be brain dead or blinded by indoctrination into the system), what are you going to do about it? How will you go about making sure the people you are responsible for are safe on and off the line?
One more thing: the word “SAFE.” Maybe it has become over-utilized and by default a cliche’. “Let’s be safe out there!” ” Safety first every fire every time!” I propose we change it to PROTECTION of our people. My last sentence above should read:
How will you go about making sure the people you are responsible for are PROTECTED from harm on and off the line?
Woodsman
Woodsman says
…And it is a monumental barrier to learning when “management” doesn’t allow firefighters to actually learn from fatality investigations due to the rampant conspiracy to commit fraud by explicit burial of the real causes of fireline deaths by the investigation teams. Incidentally, these investigation teams are always packed full of the types of personnel Gary refers to as fire god or those on the fast-track to fire god status…those who would sell their own grandmother in order to preserve their paycheck, status and retirement funds for the future. Selfish and sick bastards… every last one of them!
WantsToKnowTheTruth says
Reply to Woodsman post
on April 3, 2018 at 9:07 am
>> Woodsman said…
>>
>> It is a monumental barrier to learning when
>> “management” doesn’t allow firefighters to
>> actually learn from fatality investigations
>> due to the rampant conspiracy to commit
>> fraud by explicit burial of the real causes
>> of fireline deaths
Monumental is right.
It’s as if the Airline Pilots Association is the only agency allowed to “investigate” airplane crashes.
As Gary has already pointed out… if that were the case then planes would be falling out of the sky and the only ‘explanation’ the grieving family members would be getting is “Flying is inherently dangerous. Get over it.”
At some point the responsibility for investigating Wildland fireline deaths has to be taken AWAY from the U.S. and State level Forestry agencies.
The argument that “We’re the only ones who understand what we do so we are the only ones qualified to investigate” is, and always has been, total bullshit.
The investigations must be TRULY ‘independent’.
As you and Gary have now both said…
Not just to LOOK… but to truly SEE.
Gary Olson says
Hallelujah brother! Can I get an amen? AMEN!
WantsToKnowTheTruth says
Reply to Woodsman post on April 3, 2018 at 8:57 am
>> Woodsman said…
>>
>> To expand on my statement… ( snip )
Incredibly well said.
Thank you.
Woodsman says
Your welcome. We have become experts at facade construction & replaced potential progress with extreme energy spent in the program of “covering the bases.” That’s why we have a Lessons Learned Center where the real lessons are not shared at all. It’s a sham.
WantsToKnowTheTruth says
‘Facade’. Good word.
Describes the situation perfectly.
——————————————————–
fa·cade
fəˈsäd/
noun
noun: facade; plural noun: facades; noun: façade; plural noun: façades
An outward appearance that is maintained to conceal a less pleasant or creditable reality.
——————————————————-
Diane lomas says
Woodsman,
I appreciate your ideas and words. They ring true!!
Gary Olson says
There is some confusion as to what I think of Eric Marsh. So…just to be clear, I don’t believe Mr. Marsh was a murderer. I do however, firmly believe Mr. Marsh was clearly guilty of 17 counts of manslaughter according to Arizona State law.
I believe that because I can read and comprehend the English language at a competent level. If you can do the same, then either you will agree with me, or you are a person who lives in denial and wants the world to be as you want it to be, rather than how it really is.
Now…both the police and prosecutors have enormous duscreation, we can even say they have complete discretion, as to whether to investigate and subsequently charge a person with any crime or not. But just because a person is never charged with a crime, certainly does not mean they are not guilty of that crime, it just means they are lucky or beyond the reach of the law…like being dead.
I am also a reasonable person, so if anyone can read the following law and explain why Mr. Marsh is not guilty of 17 counts of manslaughter, I would certainly like to read it. Othwise, there is no doubt in my mind, nor should there be any doubt in yours, that the acts of both Mr. Marsh and Jesse Steed leading up to the deaths of their crew clearly and squarely meet the very definition of, “Recklessly causing the death of another person.”
If knowingly and deliberately violating almost all of the rules and guidelines of wildland firefighting safety at the same against repeated warnings isn’t reckless, then I don’t know what reckless is? I didn’t write the law, shooting the messenger won’t change the facts…or the law.
https://www.azleg.gov/ars/13/01103.htm
13-1103. Manslaughter; classification
A. A person commits manslaughter
1. Recklessly causing the death of another person; or
2. Committing second degree murder as prescribed in section 13-1104, subsection A upon a sudden quarrel or heat of passion resulting from adequate provocation by the victim; or
3. Intentionally providing the physical means that another person uses to commit suicide, with the knowledge that the person intends to commit suicide; or
4. Committing second degree murder as prescribed in section 13-1104, subsection A, paragraph 3, while being coerced to do so by the use or threatened immediate use of unlawful deadly physical force upon such person or a third person which a reasonable person in his situation would have been unable to resist; or
5. Knowingly or recklessly causing the death of an unborn child by any physical injury to the mother.
B. An offense under subsection A, paragraph 5 of this section applies to an unborn child in the womb at any stage of its development. A person shall not be prosecuted under subsection A, paragraph 5 of this section if any of the following applies:
1. The person was performing an abortion for which the consent of the pregnant woman, or a person authorized by law to act on the pregnant woman’s behalf, has been obtained or for which the consent was implied or authorized by law.
2. The person was performing medical treatment on the pregnant woman or the pregnant woman’s unborn child.
3. The person was the unborn child’s mother.
C. Manslaughter is a class 2 felony.
Gary Olson says
Oh…and one more thing. The confusion regarding what I think of Eric Marsh is coming straight from Amanda, so I would like to take this opportunity to repeat other things I have also written in the past.
1. If I were with Eric now, I would hug him and we would cry together, but only after I had slapped the bitch (non gender specific) out of him. I have also written that I identify with Eric because I was a deeply flawed hotshot crew boss as well and fought my own demons…just like he did.
2. The data points I can see now and the threads that run between all three hotshot disaster fires, the Loop, the Battlement Creek and the Yarnell Hill Fire clearly reveal to me that Eric was also a victim and hero of that cursed fire, even though he was a deeply flawed hero of a corrupt and grossly mismanaged system.
Although the “Smoking Gun” I am in possession of, is directly related to the Battlement Creek Fire, it is evidence against and an indictment of the entire system led by people like Mike Dudley and Shawna Legarza who have sold their souls for professional advancement at the cost of hotshot lives in the past, as well as those in the future.
I know this because as I have written many times, once is an anomonly (the Loop Fire Of 1966), twice is a coincidence (the Battlement Creek Fire Of 1976) but three times (the Yarnell Hill Fire Of 2013) is a pattern, so it will happen again. It’s only a matter of when…not if.
And if management would have done the right thing after the Loop and Battlement Creek Fires, would the Yarnell Hill Fire have been avoided? I don’t know for sure, but one thing I do know, is that Darrell Willis told me that he was a student of the Battlement Creek Fire and I know Eric and his crew studied past disaster fires that certainly included both the Loop and Battlement Creek Fires.
The only problem with that, is that Darrell and Eric were studying the fake lessons and lies from the Battlement Creek Fire Staff Ride because after I told Shawna the truth and what needed to be studied, she thanked me for my interest, but informed she would be following the official accident report anyway. This, even though the two former hotshots, who were also Subject Matter Experts (SME) who had also been on the Battlement Creek Fire with me, told her the very same things I did at the same time.
This was in addition to Dr. Ted Putnam, who was not only an SME on the same staff ride because he had been a sector boss on the Battlement Creek Fire, he had been part of the Battlement Creek Fire Serious Accident Investigation Team (although it went by a different name) and he knew the report had been a cover up full of lies and he told Shawn’s Legarza the very same things we did, but she ignored him as well.
Like I said, I don’t know how much of a difference it would have made if the true lessons from the Battlement Creek Fire would have been learned, but if those lessons had been studied together with the true lessons that could have been learned from the Loop Fire instead of their lies…maybe the Yarnell Hill Fire would just be one more successfully fought and forgotten wildfire? Whatever those odds would have been…I would have gratefully taken them, wouldn’t you have done the same?
So…I’m sorry Amanda, but this isn’t about the dead hotshots of the past, it’s about the living Hotshots of the future. If you want to help, please let me know and we can work together to save the lives of all of the wildland firefighters of today and tomorrow, not just our beloved hotshots.
Joy A Collura says
I can write a novel reply Gary yet all I am going to state to the world is when you ask for foias or public records…YOU FOLKS who contacted these entities tied to a govt email or cell (TEXTS) thinking it was private (THINK AGAIN-) may you been an investigator or a grieving loved one or whomever you are—- thank you because your personal or govt cell that called or texted these folks showed me who is who in this and I can confirm Gary if you gained such data boy you would have a field day on that- RTS too and as well a few others…Sad screwy world we live in when this site is labelled as the lead component for their current problems when there is no other area where you can freely share. Sad huh. I mean you can freely share at the local bars…I am sorry Rocksteady and Diane are not able to post…
CALLING JOHN DOUGHERTY…new chapter please! We know you visited recently John—
http://www.investigativemedia.com/trumps-former-attorney-john-dowd-petitioned-clinton-to-pardon-former-arizona-governor/
Gary Olson says
Everyone should be able to post. I don’t think it is the size of the chapter, I think it is the anti spam thing a ma jig, you just need to be patient, save your work and then hit he back arrow, and then the forward arrow, once or twice, back and forth, you might even have to close all of the way out and log in again, but if your work is saved, it doesn’t matter, it just takes some time. It is a pain in the ass, but hey…we get to post here and share our thoughts with the world! So…
Joy A Collura says
http://www.investigativemedia.com/please-begin-yarnell-hill-fire-chapter-xxv-here/#comment-470716
Happy Anniversary Diane Lomas
Have you learned much else in the past year except maybe the site can make one a little stir crazy at times…
Joy A Collura says
Gary, the Heckler & Koch 27 is not a battle rifle and does not have the punch or the distance. It just takes the place of the M-249 but it is lighter. Basically a heavy barreled M-4 with a piston driven bolt.
I would marry my Grendel if it was allowed…6.5 Grendel would still be alot better than 5.56
the .300 blackout is useless after 300 yard Gary- it drops like a rock
Gary said God Bless America and Our Troops! Somebodies children are dying and suffering life long injuries, including PTSD for the rest of us.
THAT ALSO CAN BE STATED FOR THE FIRE INDUSTRY NOT JUST THE TROOPS GARY
Gary, we were right to be there at Vietnam but the Generals should of fought the war not the politicians—oh and again much like the fire industry…war then would of been over in 2 years…
this is a broken promise me being here but I am not talking fire data and the end of that talk did not go to a healing as I had wished for so I am here but not for fire stuff just the love of educating on guns since Gary is well rounded in his view I like to always put a twist on it but not late at night; at dinner time (wink) (NUMBA 10 please),
I love talking guns and politics and numismatics.
Gary Olson says
Yes…but in Arizona you couldn’t marry your Grendel unless it is a male Grendel.
And I guess we are just going to have to agree to disagree on our particular choice of firearms, but I do respect your opinion, especially since you are…you know…a chick. :). But I am going to have to take a hard look at the .300 Blackout ballistics. I will admit…I didn’t do that.
Actually, I misstated what I said about Vietnam. I am sure we didn’t belong there, but I think I did (paraphrased from “Full Metal Jacket”).
I am pretty good at compartmentaling things and I can put the morality of that war and many of our other wars of choice in one box and the courage and valor of those who fought them in another box.
That is one way I survived working for the federal govt. for 30 years in the jobs I had, I could compartmentalized “things.” These shitbags like Mike Dudley have to be pretty good at it to or they couldn’t look at themselves in the mirror.
The Vets taught me how to do that in the aftermath of the Battlement Creek Fire. We didn’t miss a beat and joked about WF who got burned over as being “ Crispy Critters”; which was another Vietnam term I think.
They didn’t need to take us out of rotation for the rest of the entire fuckin’ season. It cost us a lot of lost fire money and we weren’t living in that barracks and showering in a communal shower because we liked each other. Wildland firefighting is first and foremost about making extra money, overtime, hazard pay, double time on holidays in addition to nighttime and Sunday differential, etc. no tree huggers need apply. The only good tree is on the back of a logging truck and sometimes you have to burn down the forest in order to save it.
Gary Olson says
Joy,
I have been thinking about it and I don’t think I have to check the ballistics on the .300 Blackout because I don’t think it matters if it drops like a rock at 300 yards, we are talking about a battle rifle…not a sniper rifle. And I think in both LE and with the military, those are considered to be effective out to only about 100 yards. I guess after that, you could use Kentucky windage?
As far as the HK 27, it’s advantage is that it is built around a completely different operating system and keeping the M4 and it’s ariations clean enough to operate without jamming has been an issue from day one in Vietnam.
Not for LE and most sport shooters because I think it takes thousands of rounds to start causing problems and I think they see something like one malfunction every 600 or 700 rounds and LE just doesn’t shoot them that much, I guess the military does?
In any case, the HK 27 eliminates the entire issue, as do the Sig Sauer assault rifles with the new and improved operating systems, so I want one (HK 27) and in a .556 because like I said before, a heavier bullet is academic to me because our culture is built around the cheaper NATO round.
And you know when the Zombie Apocalypse comes and we have to raid the National Guard Armories in order to survive, we are going to want to be able to shoot NATO rounds, so…
Gary Olson says
Hey Joy,
What do you think of the HK MP5? I hated it because it definitely wasn’t a battle rifle, so I switched to an HK 53.
But even though we have MP 5’s in this realistic training video, we also have some bitchin’ Hueys with some great sound effects from those big beautiful and magnificent machines, but it also comes with a really bitchin’ sound track personally selected by me. Enjoy!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=56Zs9BKHpP8
Joy A Collura says
Hey Gary- when I was younger I knew HOW MANY RBIs and TDs completed and I even tried to keep up with all the guys who counted all the tail fins and the hood ornaments back to the 40’s…but who’s dating me that far back…the bottom line “who gives a shit”…I know nowadays not many do…back to joining your boat you sailed on…have a good night. I know mine won’t be so swell yet it is the right thing to do…so if there is any of you out there debating if you should just keep the YHF data details to yourself please remember sharing is the right thing to do…what I am about to share to someone tonight will shift my life forever but it’s the right thing to do…so yeah Gary sorry but not a solid phase in my life to be cutting it up with you. I am in prayer mode. God Bless-
Gary Olson says
It’s okay, I already know what you think of a gun that can’t drop a man like a rock at 300 yards and beyond, it ain’t worth having. And I agree with you, So…
Joy A Collura says
What do I think
of the 1960s technology- MP5?!?!
It was good for swat teams and anti terrorism units but was never designed to be a battle rifle.
I’m glad you switched to the short barrel 5.56…less over penetration…with the right ammo 😉
Great video sir
I like the old army helicopters…the hueys…
I still enjoy the ride it like you stole it one…or take the wheel one….
you know for us folks who others claim as “crazy” or “not right”…in all reality there has to be something said because we are at least raw and pure and say it as we see it may it not always be the proper way to express…yet what is the proper ways nowadays…I know Gary you are thinking hmmm… “AI”…aka WTKTT ;)…he is all proper…so proper one has to think if we are on the set of the Wizard of Oz…who stands behind that curtain, eh? 😉
I just spent a good hour earlier being very pure on a topic I thought was going to lead to a shift yet I walk away scratching my head…like a chimpanzee Gary. I think I even scratched under my arm pit. I do not want to keep this up- trying to do no more late night pop-ons but wanted to thumbs up the aerial shot videos—wonder what Rocksteady thought of it…He had to love it…
Gary Olson says
Wow…you really do know guns and stuff about them!
Joy A Collura says
Particularly, when statistics are involved right Gary—the determination of what constitutes a credible fact (and what does not) can contain elements of personal subjectivity. Isn’t it our mission to minimize subjective information and to provide highly factual content or is that just wtktt’s area. Therefore- I just got notified you were writing my name on IM so I ended up over here but I was not even reading here lately…been training…I recently Gary attended ARIZONA WILDFIRE ACADEMY and I am now a long term student of fire—what’s your views on that…(do not answer rocksteady…or you Norb…or you RTS…) I just wonder what Gary thinks because the last I knew you called me what on my 40 day fast and I am still here…I lost more weight this week then I did on the 40 day fast being treated for strep A with antibiotics even though it came back zero and I did come back + with tonsillitis and pharyngitis- ugh so on their dang meds…
leave you with some trivia:
“American Sniper” Chris Kyle’s longest confirmed kill, at 1.2 miles, was made using this rifle?
SINCE IT IS SO LATE I WILL GIVE YOU
A B C D CHOICES -OK….
a. Mk-12 5.56mm
b. .338-caliber Lapua
c. .50-caliber Accuracy International AS50
d. L42A1 Enfield 7.62mm
if you guessed “B”…then try this one on for size….Tommy Gun”, the M1 Thompson shoots what bullet?
.45 acp
AK-47 shoots what bullet?
Actually when the AK-47 was being tested in the mid 1940s the bullet shells were so top secret that after firing they were collected and reloaded or destroyed.
where were you Gary when you “first saw” your first desert eagle and could a .44 mag be chambered in one?
I was in Chandler Arizona when one of the Phoenix Suns Player was taking me to my doctor appt then we chilled by pool side and as I went up their spiral stairs where all the awards laid and the pool table was on 2nd level he showed me his collection and I thought “hell no” I’m not gonna touch another man’s weapon I hardly know…right 😉 Man, thank God I did not…tell you why in person…but I did like seeing that toilet spray water up at his place…that was another first to my life…I learned what a bidet was that day…
Life is surely funny
Happy Easter World
https://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=https%3A%2F%2Ftomfernandez28.files.wordpress.com%2F2013%2F12%2Fscreen-shot-2013-12-23-at-6-13-01-pm.png&imgrefurl=https%3A%2F%2Ftomfernandez28.com%2F2013%2F12%2F24%2Fdear-god-where-did-we-go-wrong%2F&docid=qVHduOV5xPBUYM&tbnid=CLt_qoFnrnZZAM%3A&vet=12ahUKEwjet_WdypjaAhUJ2GMKHWiMA6E4ZBAzKB0wHXoECAAQHg..i&w=2014&h=988&bih=760&biw=1536&q=god%20created%20man%20sam%20colt%20made%20them%20equal&ved=2ahUKEwjet_WdypjaAhUJ2GMKHWiMA6E4ZBAzKB0wHXoECAAQHg&iact=mrc&uact=8
https://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=https%3A%2F%2Fimage.spreadshirtmedia.com%2Fimage-server%2Fv1%2Fmp%2Fcompositions%2FP1012440574T812A231MPC1020611413PA1663PT17X19Y34D1008449835S59%2Fviews%2F1%2Cwidth%3D1200%2Cheight%3D630%2CappearanceId%3D231%2CbackgroundColor%3DE8E8E8%2Cversion%3D1515071979%2Fgod-made-man-samuel-colt-made-em-equal-men-s-premium-t-shirt.jpg&imgrefurl=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.spreadshirt.com%2Fgod%2Bmade%2Bman%2Bsamuel%2Bcolt%2Bmade%2Bem%2Bequal-A105671288&docid=keIwt2AXapOq0M&tbnid=sMoE2xPnOmycmM%3A&vet=10ahUKEwiM34OyypjaAhVI2GMKHX0DDYMQMwhnKDUwNQ..i&w=1200&h=630&bih=760&biw=1536&q=god%20created%20man%20sam%20colt%20made%20them%20equal%20sam%20colt&ved=0ahUKEwiM34OyypjaAhVI2GMKHX0DDYMQMwhnKDUwNQ&iact=mrc&uact=8
Joy A Collura says
SNAP
Happy April Fool’s Day too
Gary Olson says
Okay…okay…okay, Joy, you know more about guns and calibers, ballistics and gun trivia than anyone I have ever known and wayyyy more than me. And that bothers me…just a little bit. Say…when is the last time you had a psychological examination and passed it?
I had two of them in the late 90’s because there were some managers in the BLM who questioned my psychological fitness for duty. But I aced both of them and then I was the only person I knew that had not one…but two certifications I was mentally squared away and I think I was wayyyy more sane than most of the BLM Ring Masters who ran that fuckin’ CIRCUS!
And even though I am working on my MOAP that will show just how bad USFS managers were, even FIRE managers, (I mean…how do you think I came up with the title for my book anyway? I didn’t pull, “Betrayed By Our Fire God’s” out of thin air) all of them were bush league compared to the Major League players who ran the BLM.
And if you want to know why (of course you do) all, or almost all the top managers in the USFS are career employees, all, or almost all top managers in the BLM are political appointees and most of them come straight from the industries they are supposed to be regulating while they give away the candy store…your candy store.
And that included both Republican and Democratic administrations although the Republican ones were wayyyy worse. I worked under the Nixon, Ford, Carter, Reagan, Bush 41, Clinton and Bush Fuck Up administrations, so I know.
I shudder to think what it is like now under the Spawn Of Satan’ Adminisration. It has to be like drunken school children raiding the candy store with Pukaski’s.
But hey…elections have consequences and barring a thermo nuclear war, our country will survive and somebody will be there to pick up the pieces. I’m just glad I won’t be one of them this time.
I mean…you can disagree with me all you want about politics, as most of you fire dogs do, but there isn’t any doubt the Democrats are better for land management agencies and the enviroment than Republicans. But if that isn’t your hot button issue…that’s cool with me, I don’t like electric cars anyway.
True story. When I went to the Battlement Creek Fire Staff Ride, I said I would only go if they would also send both of my two old friends who had been on the Battlement Creek Fire with me. Those other bastards on the committee were being pretty nasty to me and I wanted some back up, so they agreed to my demand. Both of them were still USFS employees, one in Alaska and one in Montana so it was easy for them to do…expensive, but easy.
Anyway, one of them was my old sawyer partner (he ran first saw and I ran the number two saw, in other words…he was THE crew sawyer) who had been jumpin’ out of Missoula since he left the crew 30 years earlier.
Wow…this is a long story with very little pay off, but here we go. When we went the first day to go meet Shawna Legarza for lunch so she could tell us she was going to sell out the WF as a management hack and we walked out to the parking lot where my car was parked, which was a Honda Accord Hybrid (I never made that mistake again) he stopped short…spread out his arms and exclaimed in dismay, “Where do you put your FIREWOOD!”
Notice how I did that, complimented Joy and then immediately pivoted to fuck with BLM managers, USFS managers, politicians in general and Republicans in particular and nailed Shawn’s yet again for selling her soul to get to the top of the USFS FIRE program.
Athough she did make it all of the way to the top, which is pretty damn impressive for an ex hotshot crew boss And I did all of that while spinning a yarn as cover. I love being an old guy…except for the old part.
Gary Olson says
Oh…and brag about myself yet again. Although I’m not sure bragging that I got sent in for two Fitness For Duty psychological examinations is something MOST people would brag about?
Those BLM managers thought I must be crazy to fuck with them as much as I did. But nope…I was a SANE person just trying to cope while working inside an INSANE agency. It really was a good thing I knew where so many bodies were buried (because I had buried most of them or at least dug the holes) or I never would have made it to the finish line. 🙂
Gary Olson says
Oh…those BLM managers didn’t like the results of the first tests..so the bastards sent me in for another set of tests with another whole different set of both psychologists and psychiatrist doctors in a different state.
Those BLM managers were some real motherfuckers…but hey, it’s all behind me now!
And you can tell I never even think about more than in the morning, the afternoon and always at night. Talk about PTSD…I have PTSD just from trying to be a good employee in a really bad agency.
Gary Olson says
Okay…I’m on a roll. The very first “one on one” meeting I went to with a BLM State Director just a few short months after I went to work for them as a Special Agent. I went in…sat there for a few minutes while he kept writing
Finally he looked up and said, “Gary…….long pregnant pause, you do good work but…..another really long pregnant pause…you leave too many bodies on the trail.”
And then he went back to writing and I finally got up and walked out of his big corner office.
The very last meeting I went to with a BLM State Director (and the entire state management team including the Associate State Director) when the meeting was over and everyone was starting to pick up their notebooks etc., the Associate State Director looked at me and said, “What are you going to do now Gary…call 60 Minutes?”
And I was so proud of myself…I replied without missing a beat, “No Carl…I know how the game is played.”
I didn’t think that hill was worth risking dying on yet again… mostly because I was so close to the finish line.
Gary Olson says
Oh…and one more thing. It’s no wonder I went to the epicanthic border to work as much as I could.
The people I met there were a lot better class of people than I met in BLM Management Team meetings.
Those managers were some real motherfuckers, whoops, starting to repeat myself…again. I love being an old man…except for the old part.
Gary Olson says
Epicanthic…what the fuck does that even mean Apple Automatic Spell Correct?
“MEXICAN Border”
Gary Olson says
Whoops…I should have written that everyone on the Battlement Creek Fire Staff Ride Developement Committee were nasty to me except for the Chairperson of that committee, the San Juan Hotshot Crew Boss Shawna Legarza.
Shawna treated me with kindness and respect and humored me as much as she possibly could, right up to the point of telling the truth about what really happened on the Battlement Creek Fire.
The rest of the committee were all, or almost all, ex hotshot crew bosses who were in certified fire god level jobs at that point in their careers with grand titles.
Talk about about some really big egos, that bunch made me look as humble as Fred…almost. Their only problem was I had been beaten like a rented mule by some top shelf BLM managers who were some real motherfuckers for the previous 18 years, so none of those little bitches (non gender specific) intimidated or impressed me.
And needless to say, they didn’t think I belonged there and although their yapping and whining didn’t intimidate me, it did irritate me and since I was retiring, I was wayyyy over being irritated by a bunch of little bitches (non gender specific) so I resigned from Shawna’s committee.
I was really surprised that a lowly hotshot crew boss was ramrod for that bunch of ego driven arrogant bastards full of hubris, until I figured out Shawna had been identified for greatness wayyyyy early in her career.
And after I met her I understood why. Shawna was highly educated, intelligent, motivated, driven and squared away. And most of all, she was a really nice person who was politically savvy and very smooth. I could see why she was going far….and I’ll be damned, I was right. But just to be clear, being a woman certainly didn’t hurt her, but she had all of the boxes checked to get were she is at.
So….do I feel like a no good rat snitch bastard for doing what I am doing? Nope…like I have written many times. I’m not here to make friends or expand my Christmas Card List. If you can’t do the time…don’t do the crime.
And now it’s my turn…I control what I write here and elsewhere. Pay back is a real BITCH, (non gender specific).
Gary Olson says
Oh…and one more thing, I am very well aware that very few of you if any, are particularly interested in what happened on the Battlement Creek Fire or the Loop Fire.
You are interested in what happened on the Yarnell Hill Fire as I am. BUT…here is where my connecting data points and common threads between all of those fires come in.
IF…the truth would have been told about the Loop Fire and IF…the truth would have been told about the Battlement Crrek Fire, then maybe…just maybe, however small the chance would have been, maybe the Yarnell Hill Hill Fire would just be one more forgotten fire by now, you know…except for those people directly impacted by it like the residents of Yarnell etc.
Have you noticed I quit throwing rocks at the Prescott Fire Department years ago? And have now quit bitchin’ about Hybrid Firefighters (I leave that task to the Woodsman) I can see clearly now what the real problem is.
And it isn’t the Prescott Fire Department or Hybrid Fitefighters, it is a systemic failure and a refusal by the entire fuckin’ wildland firefighting complex to be honest with themselves or anyone else.
Like I have written several times…thank God the National Trasportation Safety Board isn’t like them or none of us would be any safer now traveling by air or common carrier than we were when the NTSB was first formed.
diane lomas says
Gary,
I am so glad that you are retired and can be candid in your remarks.
I am learning from your remarks about the BLM and the fire system.
Gary Olson says
Hi Diane,
Thanks and welcome back.
Joy A Collura says
TO REPLY ON THESE:
Gary Olson says
MARCH 30, 2018 AT 11:11 AM
Wow…you really do know guns and stuff about them
————————
Gary Olson says
APRIL 1, 2018 AT 1:18 PM
Okay…okay…okay, Joy, you know more about guns and calibers, ballistics and gun trivia than anyone I have ever known and wayyyy more than me. And that bothers me…just a little bit. Say…when is the last time you had a psychological examination and passed it?….Notice how I did that, complimented Joy and then immediately pivoted to fuck with BLM managers, USFS managers, politicians in general and Republicans in particular and nailed Shawn’s yet again for selling her soul to get to the top of the USFS FIRE program.
——————————
JOY’S REPLY:
I will appease your distraction techniques Gary….
and reply below-
yet we do know most skim you and me when they come here when we talk this stuff because they figure
there they go again those two
so let’s think of something good this time around…got anything?
I don’t.
Happy April Fool’s Day
and
Happy Easter!
Very apropos that this would come up on Easter Sunday Gary about “crazy”
They also thought Jesus was crazy
to the point that they were willing to crucify him for speaking the Truth.
And even in their ignorance Jesus still said forgive them for they know not what they do.
I look at it this way Gary…look at how many truly celebrate Easter for its pure definitions versus the commercial end of it…
have you ever went to church and saw Mr. Norton snoring away during a sermon?
is it the modus operandi and that it is very routine? uninteresting? Is the Holy Spirit not in that sanctuary or is it so much so it puts you so relaxed you nod off? How does one get the requisite skills of passing the message to us the people from Above and how many get the best messages while asleep? Does it have to always happen in a church? One man who is older than the mountain said he thought it was his weekly nap hour and would awake ‘God, be merciful to me, a sinner!’
I love politics and I love talking religion…
I do not get scared away
like one side of my family trained me to be a lover to the government and the Govt’ wants and needs for me- that never happened Gary— I am free as they come and I do not see that changing…that is where I do not see me yet fitting in to your certain parts to the industry
now my new industry too as a student to fire…I might have to earn my way through and not be able to ride the gravy promotion trains—
I am not a bacteria egg as one named their brother recently and I am not a trashy bunch of lizard shit either- She is getting up in her age and high up in the Mormon church but she sure has a way with words…but most people of Faith do 😉
back to the guns because all this other talk is making me sad I do not have a place to worship Him just in my heart…sooooooo
the .300 blackout is not a new cartridge
It came out in the late 80s and was designed to shoot with a sound suppressor and was called the .300 whisper and designed for hunting up to 200 yards quietly and why it was called whisperer and never meant to be a war fighting battle cartridge for wild boars and such. Its fat and slow…like me. They do load it faster but it still performs worse than a 7.62 x39 AK bullet
AK round is still better
As for the grendel and why I would marry it over man …the most distance and energy out of a standard AR. Most bang. Meaning power Gary. The grendel would never leave my side and makes me feel equal.
You have the right to keep and arm bears Gary….I mean bear arms…or is it bare arms?
https://www.google.com/search?q=you+have+the+right+to+bare+arms&rlz=1C1SNNT_enUS599US599&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwj81OLtu5raAhUOEHwKHTzxAJcQ_AUICigB&biw=1536&bih=760#imgrc=R1apWU3snhc89M:
I have a hard time with comprehension one of my flaws I must say. I look forward to be a long term student of fire and good thing I have poor comprehension I will fit in just perfect with the party 😉
The delayed roller block action of the HK was originally in the mg42…Hitler’s zipper so I was hoping Gary you would say I did not know ENOUGH about guns but you didn’t but in 1960s HK got the design from CETME in Spain for the HK 91 and then they made a smaller for the MP5.
Funny how a German company would pay a Spanish company for a German design. ?????
I had a psychological test almost 2 years into my trails with Sonny and they said I was a-ok and sharp and both licensed counselors are dear to me today on a personal level- we talk and hike and do medical massages together and always been great visits. I was being qualified to do contracted work and also passed those tests to help criminally minded mentally challenged folks learn the tools to lead a productive life vs homeless or gained more independence for the people struggling just to be a part to this modern life. I have taken a almost 60 year old Native American Lady who had a lobotomy and I was told to feed her pureed foods and I must feed her because she was unable to feed herself but I was able with no talk speak with her and in a much cave woman mannerisms by example showed her she can do it on her own. Same lady was in wheel chair and after a few months she was walking 3 miles the 7 day shift every other week that I worked and you saw how proud she was in how she stood and smiled. Sometimes some of us need that specialized time and attention to grow in life….
So yeah never be afraid of me Gary because I am God’s and I know and practice safety always even ask fire chief Pete Anderson…safety first with me always…and I am so glad Norb you got to meet Pete very much so—because human factors and safety will always be my platform on the aftermath of the YHF and many fires.
Good night. Rough 2 hours so nap time.
NEW CHAPTER PLEASE…
I have to hear Diane and Norb and Rocksteady, John.
please
also always write your comment than come here and copy and paste because the longer on page writing the better chance the captcha locks up
oh and Gary remember…yep… remember eyes and ears right here— are not working so well but well enough to know and feel truths…get your foia and public records or privacy act records today and include the names who you feel need to be included- I did the ones who did me harm to see where they laid in this all— I have to state some are just in a grieving process and that includes FFs and every day folks not just the ones affected by 6-30-13 directly…
Gary Olson says
Gee whiz, I already unconditionally surrendered, you win already!
Oh…and it goes without saying that now IF the truth is told about the Loop, Battlement Creek and Yarnell Hill Fires, maybe…just maybe…however small the chance may be…the next hotshot disaster fire will never happen?
This is because the fact is, none of those fires were the primary cause of the deaths of any of the El Cariso, Mormon Lake or Granite Mountain Hotshots. Their leaders were the primary cause of those deaths…that’s the truth.Oh…and one more thing, I am very well aware that very few of you if any, are particularly interested in what happened on the Battlement Creek Fire or the Loop Fire.
You are interested in what happened on the Yarnell Hill Fire as I am. BUT…here is where my connecting data points and common threads between all of those fires come in.
IF…the truth would have been told about the Loop Fire and IF…the truth would have been told about the Battlement Crrek Fire, then maybe…just maybe, however small the chance would have been, maybe the Yarnell Hill Hill Fire would just be one more forgotten fire by now, you know…except for those people directly impacted by it like the residents of Yarnell etc.
Have you noticed I quit throwing rocks at the Prescott Fire Department years ago? And have now quit bitchin’ about Hybrid Firefighters (I leave that task to the Woodsman) I can see clearly now what the real problem is.
And it isn’t the Prescott Fire Department or Hybrid Fitefighters, it is a systemic failure and a refusal by the entire fuckin’ wildland firefighting complex to be honest with themselves or anyone else.
Like I have written several times…thank God the National Trasportation Safety Board isn’t like them or none of us would be any safer now traveling by air or common carrier than we were when the NTSB was first formed.
Gary Olson says
Double whoops.
WantsToKnowTheTruth says
On March 26, 2018 at 12:29 pm, Gary Olson said…
——————————————————————————————————-
As I have written before, I am a student of the Loop, Battlement Creek, South Canyon and the Yarnell Hill Fires. All of course are the wildfires that killed Hotshots with flames, as opposed to random accidental deaths.
I am researching and writing about the data points all of these fires have in common and the threads that run through all of them. These common data points and threads meet the very definition of George Santayana’s famous quote.
https://en.m.wikiquote.org/wiki/George_Santayana
I hope to use my research and writing to beat “them” like the low down dirty dogs they are. These fire gods are now epitomized by my old friend…Shawna Legarza.
————————————————————————————————————
On March 26, 2018 at 6:57 pm, Woodsman said…
———————————————————————————————————–
“Progress, far from consisting in change, depends on retentiveness. When change is absolute there remains no being to improve and no direction is set for possible improvement: and when experience is not retained, as among savages, infancy is perpetual. Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it.”
George Santayana
———————————————————————————————————–
On March 28, 2018 at 11:20 am, Gary Olson also said…
( Regarding the similarities between the fatalities at the Loop, Battlement Creek, South Canyon and the Yarnell Hill Fires )…
———————————————————————————————————–
The system flaws were revealed for most to look at, very but few to see, which probably resulted in no changes and every since then we have just been lucky which will continue until the next time it happens.
————————————————————————————————————
“The system flaws were revealed for most to look at, very but few to see.”
And that is why so many have worked so hard ( for so long ) even just on this particular forum.
Not just to LOOK ( at every possible detail )… but to truly SEE… and genuinely increase the chances of saving the lives that have yet to be extinguished.
Carry on.
Gary Olson says
I’m impressed. I thought that was a “sleeper line” that would go unnoticed. And of course I was taking a shot at many, or maybe even most of “them”, but clearly I intended to exclude those who participate here on this thread.
I believe this impromptu crowd sourcing social investigation, review and analysis of the Yarnell Hill Fire is truly the first wildfire disaster investigation in the history that an honest alternative to what is the standard cover up and fairy tale that has always been the product of corrupt and mismanaged agency hacks with the heroic exception on Dr. Ted Putnam, who until now has been the one light in the darkness of deception, obfuscation, and obstruction systemically practiced by the agencies to cover up the true primary, secondary and causal factors in literally every serious accident wildfire investigation to date in order to protect those agencies and the civil servants running them and the careers of those who were directly responsible for the mismanagement, malfesonce, and incompetence with a conspiracy of lies, deception and half truths.
All of this while they were in reality committing very serious felony violations of federal law, one in particular everyone who watches the news should be very familiar with by now thanks to the Adminisrarion of President Trump. And that is 18 USC 1001 and not only sent Martha Stewart to federal prison for years, but may in the end bring down this current Presidency. I am not advocating or saying I want that to happen because I think there is at least some risk of serious civil disturbances and some level of civil war which will result in good people being killed on both sides…my people.
In other words, I am trying to emphasize this law, 18 USC 1001 isn’t an obscure and little known, understood or used federal statute. It is a workhorse and is used on a regular basis by all federal agents, not just those in the FBI.
I used this law all of the time in my previous life to help hold people accountable for their actions and enforce the rule of law that is currently being ignored and flaunted by SERIOUS ACCIDENT INVESTIGATION TEAMS on a regular basis in order to generate false and misleading SERIOUS ACCIDENT INVESTIGATION REPORTS AND CIVER UPS!
And guess what? Several experts have agreeed with me, my “Smoking Gun” from the Battlement Creek Fire Investigation is indeed a Smoking Gun, that now can’t be oversold because it is what it is.
And what it is, is a classic example of how the corrupt and mismanaged wildland firefighting agencies, specifically the U.S. Forest Service in this particular case, has been violating 18 USC 1001 among other federal statutes for decades now.
It is finally time for a little expose, which of course is well beyond the statute of limitations for prosecution, but hopefully the next one won’t be. And just as a little reminder, you need to be aware that federal law views the OMMISSION of facts…exactly like it views LIES pertaining to those same facts. STOP IT! AND DON’T DO IT ANYMORE! We the People, will be watching…YOU PEOPLE.
GOD BLESS AMERICA!
U.S. Code › Title 18 › Part I › Chapter 47 › § 1001
18 U.S. Code § 1001 – Statements or entries generally
US Code
Notes
Authorities (CFR)
(a) Except as otherwise provided in this section, whoever, in any matter within the jurisdiction of the executive, legislative, or judicial branch of the Government of the United States, knowingly and willfully—
(1) falsifies, conceals, or covers up by any trick, scheme, or device a material fact;
(2) makes any materially false, fictitious, or fraudulent statement or representation; or
(3) makes or uses any false writing or document knowing the same to contain any materially false, fictitious, or fraudulent statement or entry;
shall be fined under this title, imprisoned not more than 5 years or, if the offense involves international or domestic terrorism (as defined in section 2331), imprisoned not more than 8 years, or both. If the matter relates to an offense under chapter 109A, 109B, 110, or 117, or section 1591, then the term of imprisonment imposed under this section shall be not more than 8 years.
(b) Subsection (a) does not apply to a party to a judicial proceeding, or that party’s counsel, for statements, representations, writings or documents submitted by such party or counsel to a judge or magistrate in that proceeding.
(c) With respect to any matter within the jurisdiction of the legislative branch, subsection (a) shall apply only to—
(1) administrative matters, including a claim for payment, a matter related to the procurement of property or services, personnel or employment practices, or support services, or a document required by law, rule, or regulation to be submitted to the Congress or any office or officer within the legislative branch; or
(2) any investigation or review, conducted pursuant to the authority of any committee, subcommittee, commission or office of the Congress, consistent with applicable rules of the House or Senate.
(June 25, 1948, ch. 645, 62 Stat. 749; Pub. L. 103–322, title XXXIII, § 330016(1)(L), Sept. 13, 1994, 108 Stat. 2147; Pub. L. 104–292, § 2, Oct. 11, 1996, 110 Stat. 3459; Pub. L. 108–458, title VI, § 6703(a), Dec. 17, 2004, 118 Stat. 3766; Pub. L. 109–248, title I, § 141(c), July 27, 2006, 120 Stat. 603.)
Robert the Second says
Good stuff Gary,
Here is a link for Leadership and Biographical information on Dr. Putnam.
https://www.fireleadership.gov/toolbox/leaders_meet/interviews/leaders_TedPutnam.html
I will follow up at another time with his article titled: “Accidents, accident guides, stories and the truth.”
This amazing paper is published in the Proceedings of 11th International Wildland Fire Safety Summit, April 4-8, 2011, Missoula, Montana, USA; Published by the International Association of Wildland Fire, Missoula, Montana, USA
Gary Olson says
Right on, need that for my book. Thanks
Robert the Second says
Gary,
I emailed you a copy
Rocksteady says
Need a new chapter… can’t post
Woodsman says
Here is one of the main issues with the business of wildland firefighting in the United States: it’s an exclusive club. You’re in or you’re out. I’m lookin at you Todd fucking Abel, you wannabe wildfire guru battalion chief motherfucker. There’s two kinds of firefighters in the wildland arena: those who have progressed through the system the right way & those who have ‘fast-tracked’ bypassing the accepted advancement practices & poof! Big-time qualifications overnight. I’m lookin at YOU, Darryl Willis.
The life or death situation on the firelines of America manifests itself when those working on the fire don’t actually know which class their leaders come from either through ignorance or voluntary cognitive dissonance. So let me ask you: who is your supervisor & more importantly, how did they get there? Recognition of the answer to this question and hedging accordingly in your daily risk analysis JUST MAY SAVE YOUR LIFE!
Nothing can be taken for granted or assumed in the business of wildland firefighting. The sooner you accept this reality, the more likely you & those around will have an accident free successful mission. So, let’s THINK out there, people. It’s not rocket science!
The Woodsman
Woodsman says
Lesson #2
The pervasive national Let It Burn Unofficial Official Policy
The powers that be want it all to burn. At first glance one may believe this ideology is in reaction to a hundred year philosophy of maximum fire exclusion from the landscape… but it’s actually more than that, way more. The people behind the curtain pulling the strings as it were WANT IT ALL TO BURN. Why, you ask? Because it’s good for fuel reduction therefore lessening the impacts from wildfires that are likely to occur? Well, yes but it’s more than that. It is believed by some of those in power that humans are a blight to the planet, fire is a natural part of the ecology of the land, and by default it NEEDS to burn for the cleansing of mother earth. Oops, I almost forgot: just as the enormity of the military/industrial complex was identified years ago our society has entrenched another similar phenomenon: the wildfire/industrial complex. Big fires pay, big time. So how about it residents of Curry county, Oregon? How about you, Gatlinburg? Ever wonder why it took the Park Service 3 freaking days to actually attempt to extinguish a small fire in the rocks? Now you know why.
THE Woodsman
Woodsman says
.,.and if your home or your subdivision is in the way, TOO BAD, you shouldn’t have lived there anyway. You should live in a planned development with government water & sewer service. Mother Earth is more important than pesky human life. That’s the truth. You will not hear the truth, however. You will hear excuse after excuse. Failing to engage in aggressive initial attack in the name of firefighter safety is a common excuse. The old-timers know Exactly what I’m talking about. That’s what public information officers are used for: lying to the public in order to cover up the honest truth of what’s really being considered by fire managers in order to ‘contain’ a wildfire. FIRE USE, baby! Look it up.
Woodsman
Woodsman says
And speaking of fire managers placing the needs of ‘the resource’ ahead of human life, I have a story to share. Before I continue, let me first say that I’ve reached the limits of my tolerance to keep my mouth shut in order to play along with the charade.
Look here, leaders of wildfire across the land, I’ve given you upwards of 6 MONTHS to give us a factual report on the 2, count them 2!, tree strike fatalies in Montana last July & August. That’s right 2 fatality by tree strike on the same forest 2 weeks apart.
#1 The condition of the Lolo & Beaverhead-Deerlodge national forests was shocking! Square mile after square mile of dead lodgepole, a true mess unlike I’ve ever witnessed before in 20 years of service. It’s my understanding that active forest management including tree harvesting & thinning has all but been eliminated from consideration due to special interest groups and subsequent litigation preventing stand thinning and other silvicultural practices from occurring. Thus the public forests are miles of standing & down timber ripe for burning when lightning strikes. What a shameful piece of ground!
I’ve carried this with me for over 6 months: I received an unsolicited in person first hand account of the events surrounding the death of hotshot Witham on the Lolo Peak fire. Fireline leaders opted for use of mechanized equipment for dead tree snag removal in the fireline construction area but were OVERRULED by forest personnel, their objection being it was in an area classified as PROPOSED WILDERNESS AREA. (It wasnt true designated wilderness yet) That’s right, no machinery allowed! Out came the mechanized tree harvester and in went the hotshots (hand crew.) On the first shift Mr. Witham was killed by a tree strike. In summary, I have one question for my readers: are fire managers putting the resource ahead of human life? My answer is YES, they are.
RIP, Brent Witham, you deserved better leadership across the board. Also, deepest prayers for the feller-buncher operator who related his personal account of the true happenings of that day to me. It’s not your fault!
Trenton Johnson of Grayback forestry type 2 crew was the victim of the tree strike fatality 2 weeks prior to this event on the same forest. While I have no first hand knowledge of the circumstances in his death, I wonder what if any unnecessary risks were taken due to consideration of the resource needs in comparison to the preservation of human life.
Woodsman
Woodsman says
One can easily check behind my words if you don’t believe me. It’s written in black and white all over wildfire documents. Just go to the lessons learned center. There is an 11 min 26 sec video entitled ” Every Fire is an Opportunity to Treat a Landscape. ” This mentality has absolutely infected the management of wildfires in the United States today.
Woodsman says
…….and everyone knows you have to crack a few eggs to make an omelet, right? The civilians who lost their lives in Gatlinburg were the eggs. Afterall , every fire is an opportunity to treat a landscape. Read the management plan for GSM national park – reintroduce fire to the landscape as much as possible.
Gary Olson says
Dear Woodsman;
Whoa now…where did that come from.? What did I miss? In any case, you have certainly given me a lot to think about just after I finished watching the Stormy Daniels interview on “60 Minutes.” She is the gift that just keeps on giving!
And in return…here is what I have been thinking about today in the hope that it might give any WF who are still checking this thread something to think about while they are waiting for my much anticipated and highly acclaimed (at least conceptually) tome to be finished and published.
“I have been thinking a lot today about somebody in the USFS “authorizing” the El Cariso Hotshots and only them, to wear berets…black berets. I think that is really weird and the perfect metaphor or symbol for my theory that “Hubris is the number one killer of Hotshots.”
I mean…WTF, black berets? I knew that airborne units of the US Army are authorized to wear maroon berets and that Special Forces are authorized to wear green berets, like everyone else knows, but I was a little fuzzy on the black ones.
FYI…those used to be the sole honor for the glory covered 75th Ranger Regiment until General Shinseki, who was the Army Chief Of Staff at the time, fucked it up and decided everyone in the Army should wear a black beret…kind of like everyone getting blue ribbon for “participating.” And now the Rangers wear a tan one because Shinseki ruined what the black beret had come to symbolize for he elite Rangers first made famous for scaling the cliffs of Normandy on D Day.
But isn’t that weird, given the context of the time…1966, (while we were winning the Vietnam War, think John Wayne in “The Green Berets” and before Walter Cronkite decided we should just declare victory and withdraw after the disastrous Tet Offensive of 1968) that the El Cariso Hotshots would be considered so special somebody authorized them to wear black berets that were synonymous with the second only to Special Forces in fame…the storied Army Rangers?
As Hotshots, used to run in cadence to, “I want to be an Airborne Ranger, live a life of constant danger” etc. led by some an ex Vietnam door gunner and Huey Crew Chief who ended up being captured and held hostage by the Revolutionary Guard when the Shah was deposed because he was in Iran working under contract for Bell Helicopters for the Iranian Government and making a bunch of money at the time.
Anyway…I have been writing a chapter on the whole concept in my head today. Those black berets killed 12 El Cariso Hotshots (at least partially…no, they were symbolically totally responsible, or at least what the black berets symbolized was totally responsible for those deaths) and severely burned a bunch more of those stupid glory driven fucks who had a terminal case of “Hero Complex.”
Think about it.
Gary Olson says
Whoops, I meant to write, “as Hotshots, during my early years we used to “run in formation singing in cadence,” not running in cadence.
That tradition was lost once the Vietnam guys were all gone from our crew. But…it was inspiring while it lasted…I guess?
Running in formation and singing in cadence like Airborne Ranger wannabes was like a lot of things hotshot crew managers do to build esprit de corps that motivate ordinary people to do extraordinary things while working as the “tip of the WF spear” in situations that would make most people run the other way while saying…”FUCK THIS SHIT; I’m outta here!”
Gary Olson says
FYI,
As I have written before, I am a student of the Loop, Battlement Creek, South Canyon and the Yarnell Hill Fires. All of course are the wildfires that killed Hotshots with flames, as opposed to random accidental deaths.
I am researching and writing about the data points all of these fires have in common and the threads that run through all of them. These common data points and threads meet the very definition of George Santayana’s famous quote.
https://en.m.wikiquote.org/wiki/George_Santayana
I hope to use my research and writing to beat “them” like the low down dirty dogs they are. These fire gods are now epitomized by my old friend…Shawna Legarza.
Unfortunately, my very own personal most beloved and respected fire god, Bill Buck is in this same group. Like I have written many times, I don’t have any secrets from you, who are indeed among my closest friends and confidants.
There are just things I haven’t had a chance to tell you about yet and that will eventually include the “Smoking Gun” I am in possession of that Bill used to kill the Mormon Lake Hotshots on the Battlement Creek Fire.
SPOILER ALERT – The Battlement Creek Fire SAIT was in possession of this smoking gun but…wait for it….they covered it up and it was not mentioned in their final SAIR or anywhere else until it was sent to me 30 years later.
God Bless America!
Gary Olson says
Oh…and one more thing. It took my participation in this on going discussion for the past five years to “see” these common data points and threads in context after staring at them for years without seeing them and understanding what they are.
Now…I just have to be able to paint a picture for you by connecting the dots (data point and threads) one at a time so your eyes will be opened as well.
I hope I can do it. 🙂
Woodsman says
Well, Big G, grab a brush & a sheet of canvas & hop to it. Lives of good people are at stake here. There’s a better chance somebody will listen to you as your credentials are rock solid in the world of hotshots…if I recall, some of the best times of your life?
Woodsman says
“Progress, far from consisting in change, depends on retentiveness. When change is absolute there remains no being to improve and no direction is set for possible improvement: and when experience is not retained, as among savages, infancy is perpetual. Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it.”
George Santayana
Gary Olson says
OK…I’m on it. I will actually work on a Readers Digest version so I don’t have to wait for my book to come out to share my nuggets of wisdom and insight.
Plus…with those of you who are still here, I can skip the lengthy back story because you already know that part and you “get it.”
And yes…being a Wildland Firefighter and specifically a grunt and a ground pounder was the happiest times of my life. I have to insist on that because I was always so jealous and resentful of the luxurious life those who showed up in either their own engines or helicopters enjoyed.
And as I have said before, my happy place is back in the shadow of the magnificent Sangre de Christo Mountains in the Land Of Enchantment, Nuevo Mexico.
I liked Flagstaff as well, but I didn’t work or live most of the time in Flagstaff. I worked all of the time and lived most of the time at Happy Jack on the Long Valley Ranger District in the middle of friggin’ nowhere. It was like being at a Special Operations Group, Forward Operating Base where the Lord Of The Flies meets Animal House. So it is kind of hard to call that my “Happy Place.” A great place to learn how to be a hotshot, but…
Fun Fact…New Mexico has to print USA on their license plates because so many ignorant people in the rest of the country think anyone with a New Mexico plate is from a foreign country.
Gary Olson says
Oh…and one more thing. Whenever I have floated my “Hubris is the number one killer of hotshots to people who are former hotshots or those who know what it means to be a hotshot, they invariably say something like, “Yes, but hotshots have to have that in order to do their job.”
Which of course I agree with, but it is nuanced. Now of course if RTS were responding to this he would write something about no one needs hubris to be an effective hotshot, humility and an absence of braggadocio is far more important. So, just to be clear…I use hubris and “confidence” on a level of between 1 and 10 at a borderline 11 interchangeably. It is just easier to type or say,
one word…”hubris.”
And at the risk of using yet another totally inaccurate military comparison to WF because wildfires can’t think and due to the simple fact it has to follow the laws of nature, I am going to use one simply because it is easy to visualize.
“Those who recruit, train, supervise and manage hotshots have to pump them up and convince them of their own superiority and invincibility in order to make them believe they can succeed by fully committing to a full frontal assault on the machine gun position because they are just that good.”
That is what prepares ordinary people to be able and willing to undertake extraordinary tasks when their primordial survival instinct tells them to run away.
Now…this concept works really good most of the time because those who are actually leading the hotshots on the fireline understand and know how to apply “nuance” while prosecuting their missions and they know you don’t really charge the machine gun nest, you just know you could and be successful if it was really necessary to do so, but it’s not necessary or a good idea because you will probably DIE and beating the wildfire is never THAT important.
We only know of three times in the history of hotshots when this system has experienced catastrophic failure because those who were actually leading the hotshots failed to appropriately apply nuance at the appropriate time in the appropriate way. And of course that was on the Loop, Battlement Creek and Yarnell Hill Fires.
Gary Olson says
Think about it though. On those three fires, those hotshots had the discipline, confidence, courage, commitment, loyalty and belief in themselves and their leaders…they followed them into the maw of hell.
Is “into the maw of hell” to corny? All of those who died were burned alive…so I don’t think so.
Gary Olson says
And just as a reminder, I always exclude the South Canyon Fire on Storm King Mountain which is often mistakenly called the Storm King Mountain Fire.
Based on my study of that fire, those 9 Prineville Hotshots died more like the 7th Calvary Troopers died with General Custer at the Battle Of The Little Big Horn. There was no leadership present that day or a Last Stand.
There was only chaos, confusion, disorganization and panic, retreat, disaster and ultimately…horrible deaths.
Gary Olson says
I received some constructive criticism for my literary use of the comparison of how the Troopers in the 7th Calvary died in the Battle Of The Little Big Horn, so I am going to try and explain myself.
I know that sometimes when someone asks me what time it is, I tell them how to build a watch. So I do try to keep it short, but by doing so, especially in this abbreviated format, a lot is left out and is open to interpretation.
If you detected a tone of disgust and anger in my comparison, it was there, but was not directed at either the 9 Prineville Hotshots, the 2 helitack or the 3 smokejumpers who were burned alive on the steep slope of Storm King Mountain and this includes the jumper in charge and IC Don Mackey, nor the 274 Troopers and Induan Scouts who died from the 7th Calvary.
My anger in both cases is directed at the government who was responsible for all of the loss in both cases. The BLM in the first and the Department Of Army in the second, combined with the arrogance and criminal stupidity of General Custer which I think has been well documented and accepted by mainstream experts.
I think the original sins in the Battle Of The Little Big Horn, staying completely out of the moral right or wrong of the Indian Wars, was sending Troopers to fight an adversary with inferior weapons because the federal government was just to damn cheap and corrupt to provide its soldiers with the latest and best weapons that were available that incidentally their adversaries did have.
It was not only a lope sided battle in terms of numbers (several hundred against several thousand) but the Troopers were armed with single shot rifles whereas their adversaries had repeating rifles.
In terms of the chaos, confusion, disorganization etc. during the Battle Of The Little Big Horn and ultimate horrible deaths, I was referring to the latest archeological research (that I believe is accurate) that shows that rather than a disciplined and organized defense of their position resulting in a heroic last stand, it was rather hundreds of separate battles between individual combatants in complete confusion resulting in a total breakdown of command and control which resulted in a confused melee and slaughter of the Troopers, which was the fault of management, not the individual soldiers who gave their lives for their country and deserved much better.
As far as the South Canyon Fire goes, I have expressed my opinion in some detail regarding that fire on this thread before.
But as a short reminder, those wildland firefighters deserved much better from the government represented by the BLM as well because the BLM’s incompetence and failed policies resulted in those WF losing their lives for their country as well when it was totally avoidable and unnecessary.
The specific policy I am referring to is the BLM’s policy to make the first jumper out of the door the jumper in charge and Incident Commander regardless of their qualifications or skill set.
This probably works okay most of the time on small isolated smokejumper fires with very few people and resources to manage, but I think it can quickly become problamatic on larger and more complex fires.
I think it has been well documented that Don Mackey, although he was technically qualified to be IC, was more suited to keeping his head down and building fireline than managing a complex fire with mixed resources and agencies in a real hodgepodge of personnel, because Mackey had his head down constructing fireline when he should have been heads up with complete situational awareness to see they were constructing fireline ABOVE an uncontrolled wildfire without any anchor points on a very steep slope in what the Colorado Division Of Forestry calls Fuel Type X, that is frost killed Gamble Oak up to 12 feet high that is so explosive, fires in that fuel type have been documented to run down and kill adult mule deer, in addition to the fact that the area had been burned earlier by a ground fire through the understory that further prepped the overstory to literally explode in what was a giant canyon and natural chimney, with the WF above the fire when it did finally go off like a bomb.
And on top of that, the senior BLM engine supervisor from the local area was in charge until the jumpers showed up and then Mackey was in charge for some things, but the other guy was still in charge for other things and it kind of went back and forth which resulted in no one really being in charge.
And into this mess went an entire squad of 9 Prineville Hotshots from Oregon by helicopter insertion who were unfamiliar with the area or Fuel Type X.
Neither the Prineville Hotshot Crew Boss nor their Number 2 were with the squad that was sent in, they were both still waiting down at the helibase with the second squad and never made it to the fire when things went to hell in a hand basket.
I don’t think it is uncommon for a squad boss under those circumstances to lack the juice (status and influence) to call bullshit on the situation and refuse to go along in order to get along.
Now…that is my short interpretation of just some of the things that went wrong on the South Canyon Fire. Iif I have it wrong, I will be more than happy to read or listen to an opposing assessment and if it makes sense, I will modify my position accordingly on both the South Canyo Fire and the Battle Of The Little Big Horn.
I know I do have a tendency to blame management first and ask questions later given my long and at times unhappy relationship with “the suits”, especially those in the BLM who fucked up the Battlement Creek Fire as well and then blamed the firefighters for their incompetence and malfeasance, whoops….getting angry again, time to sign off.
Gary Olson says
Oh…and one more thing. The reason all of those firefighters were cutting fireline in a giant chimney above an uncontrolled wildfire in Fuel Type X…is because that’s where they all initially ended up in the first place.
And then on one ever looked around and said wait a minute…something is wrong with this scenario.
The helitack flew in to a ridge top and constructed a helispot because that’s what helitack do.
The hotshots were transported by the helitack to the helispot on the ridge top because that’s what hotshots do.
The smokejumpers jumped in and landed by parachuteo on the ridge top near the helispot because that’s what smokejumpers do.
And then everyone started cutting fireline from there because that’s what wildland firefighters do.
In hindsight, they didn’t need a helicopter or a helispot or any smokejumpers because there was an interstate highway running along the point of origin and the base of the fire.
Everyone could have simply gotten out of their vehicles, hiked up to the base of the fire and started constructing handline along the flank of the fire with a solid anchor point like the manual and all of their training told them to do. WTF…Over?
Gary Olson says
Oh…and several smokejumpers were further up the slope and they made it to the top and over the leeward side and survived.
One smokejumper, Eric Hipke, barely made it and survived with serious burns just in front of what really does sound more like an explosion than a fire front.
And Don Mackey could have survived, but he ran back down the slope to help the hotshots, so there’s that then…
Everything looks simple from my La-Z Boy recliner. I have all of the answers…just ask me because that’s what old men do.
Robert the Second says
Gary,
Thanks for the South Canyon Fire refresher once again and the Little Big Horn information.
I have a few points of clarification and emphases to make.
First off, IC Mackey was not building any fireline but was sharpening his chainsaw instead of managing the fire, a clear sign of stress and resorting to what one is most familiar with,
Second, the frost-killed chaparral was a major contributor to both the 1976 Battlement Creek Fire and the 1994 South Canyon Fires. It becomes basically freeze-dried whereby all the fuel moisture is removed making it aggressively volatile and a kindling-like contribution to the extremely low fuel moisture making the entire fuel bed available to burn violently.
http://coloradofirecamp.com/battlement-creek/vegetation-fuels.htm
In August 1983 a grass fire occurred at the Little Big Horn Battlefield in
Montana,which allowed archeologists to use metal detectors to locate shell casings and bullets and such.
I am positive i read that they concluded that the movie version of the Indians riding around the 7th Cavalry in circles was mostly drama and therefore false. However, I am unable to locate the research on it.
What the archeologists actually found were numerous sniper shooting holes with remnant shell casings at each one where they picked off many of them that way.
Gary Olson says
RTS,
Thank you, it has been a few years since I have studied the South Canyon Fire and I have never really focused on it so I knew I was off on some details.
However, I was pretty sure I had the gist of it right and you have confirmed that because you didn’t rip me apart.
One very interesting thing though, is the new information to me that Mackey was sharpening his chain saw which I never knew. And yes, as I have written many times, when all of us are under stress we revert to our ingrained training, which of course is why good training is so important, especially that training that simulates real world experiences.
And I am far from an expert on the Battle Of The Little Big Horn. I have mostly just always focused on the fact that a mismanaged and corrupt federal government sent US soldiers to fight a dirty war with inferior and drastically outdated weapons, probably because I am a gun nut and I always identify with those grunts in the trenches. I have never been able to visualize myself as what the vets used to call a REMF.
And BINGO…you hit on one of my favorite bones to chew on I did not mention in order to keep my post…shorter. And that is Fuel Type X on the South Canyon Fire.
I am not a student of the South Canyon Fire because as I have said, I don’t consider it a hotshot fatality fire like the Loop, Battlement Creek and the Yarnell Hill fires. I think it is a hotshot related fatality fire because 9 hotshots were burned alive on it, but I personally don’t think the mistakes that were made on it were hotshot mistakes. Nor do I think Mackey was was primarily responsible for what went wrong, he was both a victim and a hero.
I do however, believe deeply flawed agency policies which were revealed in a catastrophic failure that reflected systemic faults that were accepted because the cascading events of the South Canyon Fire hadn’t lined up (Swiss Cheese Effect) since the Battlement Creek Fire, a whole 18 years earlier and we as a species, or at least as a culture have pretty fucking short memories, to fall like dominoes. In that, if any one of them would have been removed from the sequence or equation, no one would have died and the South Canyon Fire would just be one more forgotten wildfire that was “successfully” fought.
But instead…the system flaws were revealed for most to look at, very but few to see, which probably resulted in no changes and every since then we have just been lucky which will continue until the next time it happens.
Speaking of the perils of ignoring the lessons of the history, I am working on my next MOAP (mother of all posts) that is going to include the common data points and threads that run between the Battlement Creek and South Canyon Fires, even though as I said, I am not as interested in the South Canyon Fire as I am the others, I leave that task to “generalists” in wildland firefighter safety such as yourself.
I have however, always been interested in those common data points between the two fires, which I find dumbfounding and a true indictment of the BLM Fire management people, especially those in the local area of Grand Junction.
Here are some of them off the top of my head,
Both fires,
1. Were in the same specific fuel type, which was the infamous but little known and understood (outside of the Colorado Division Of Forestry, I guess?) nicknamed Fuel Type X.
2. Out of state hotshots were killed on both fires who were unfamiliar with the area and specific fuel type.
3. Both fires had mixed inter agency resources between the BLM and USFS, which made them inherently more complex and difficult to manage which required higher expertise than the first jumper out of the fucking plane had!
4. Both fires burned at the same time of year with very close dates of occurrence.
5. Both fires trapped and killed wildland firefighters working in huge canyons and natural chimneys ABOVE THE FIRES!
6. Both fires burned on very steep slopes in very rugged terrain.
7. Fire conditions were nearly identical, including severe but anticipated winds.
8. Both fires were managed by the BLM.
9. Neither Fire investigative report identified any agency or system failures and were cover ups.
10. And my favorite…wait for it…Battlement Mesa and Storm King Mountain are only about 50 miles apart. Fuck Me!
I don’t want to oversell my “ Smoking Gun” claim. I never intended to wait this long to publish it but frankly, I have never had the format to do so before now. And the reason I don’t want to oversell it it, is because it will probably mean precious little to precious few and maybe just me because I know the complete backstory and I can see it for what it is. Written proof of a cover up of the Battlement Creek Fire and as far as I am concerned, a damning indictment of the entire system of agency fire investigation cover ups and proof of the dirty way the U.S. Forest Service in particular has operated for decades.
You know Mr, Mike Dudley, there wouldn’t be so many crazy cover up conspiracy theorists out here if there weren’t so fucking many governments cover ups that are revealed at regular intervals. It is also proof to me at least that Shawna Legarza isn’t the first fire god, nor will she be the last to sell her soul for self advancement.
Although…in the meantime RTS, I am curious what you will think of it and if you read it the same way I do (I might be a little off in my perspective since I am more than a little off the Rez) so I will send it to you just in case the USFS has me whacked and my hard drive “disappeared.” This way, they will have to wack you as well…Good Luck old friend!
See…18 USC 1001 and know the law viers an OMMISSION the very same way it views a LIE.
Gary Olson says
Speaking of being s gun nut and providing the best battle rifle possible for our troops and going back to an earlier discussion between Joy and I, I just want to state for the record I am a huge fan of the new Heckler & Koch 27 they are starting to equip our Marines with even though they cost more than 3 times what an FN Herstal manufactured M4 does. I can’t wait to get one of those nasty little bitches (non gender specific) for myself.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/M27_Infantry_Automatic_Rifle
Joy…although it looks like they are still way behind both of us on the need to upgrade to a heavier bullet like the .300 Blackout and I can’t remember you Serbian pick? Which is probably like I said before, we are too invested in the .556 NATO, probably because it was our idea in the first place?
God Bless America and Our Troops! Somebodies children are dying and suffering life long injuries, including PTSD for the rest of us.
Gary Olson says
As you can probably tell, I was heavily influenced by the few Vietnam combat vets on our crew at a young and very impressionable age.
I don’t know if we belonged in Vietnam or not, but I think I did. I think I would have made a good grunt and ground pounder. But then again…we all know what a high opinion I have of myself. 🙂
Robert the Second says
Woodsman,
Thanks for the good lessons.
This sure got you riled up Woodsman enough to write your spot post about “Todd fucking Abel, you wannabe wildfire guru battalion chief motherfucker” and “those who have ‘fast-tracked’ bypassing the accepted advancement practices & poof! Big-time qualifications overnight. I’m lookin at YOU, Darryl Willis.”
Good stuff sir. Feel free to share the details. Keep up the fine work.
WantsToKnowTheTruth says
**
** “ONLY THE BRAVE” MOVIE MARKETER WILL BE TRUMP’S 2020 CAMPAIGN MANAGER
You. Just. Can’t. Make. This. Shit. Up.
Brad Parscale, the guy who was hired by Blacklabel Media to help market the Yarnell Hill Fire Movie will now become Donald Trump’s actual 2020 Campaign Manager.
That is… if Trump isn’t in prison or hasn’t resigned or been impeached by then.
Variety magazine was the first media outlet to report about Brad Parscale being hired to promote the “Only The Brave” movie using both social media and tricks like HIRING former Navy Seals to ‘push’ the movie…
Variety
Article Title: ‘Only the Brave’ Taps Trump Digital Guru Brad Parscale
Published: October 19, 2017 2:00PM PT – By Brent Lang
http://variety.com/2017/film/news/only-the-brave-trump-brad-parscale-1202594267/
From that article…
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Brad Parscale, the digital media director for Donald Trump’s 2016 presidential campaign, was hired by the makers of “Only the Brave” to help the action-drama appeal to red-state moviegoers, Variety has learned.
Black Label Media, the film’s financier, retained Parscale to supplement online and social media marketing efforts. Sony Pictures is distributing the $38 million production.
Parscale advised the filmmakers to retain Marcus Luttrell, a former United States Navy SEAL whose heroic attempt to reach safety in Taliban-controlled parts of Afghanistan was dramatized in the 2013 film “Lone Survivor,” as an “influencer.” Luttrell was later paid to send out an email endorsement on the film’s behalf.
Parscale also suggested that the filmmakers emphasize charitable giving in an effort to avoid any criticism that “Only the Brave” was exploiting a real-life tragedy for profit. One suggestion Parscale offered was to create a digital ticker showing the amount that was going to charity. Parscale said they thought the approach might resonate with liberal moviegoers who wouldn’t be as interested in “Only the Brave.”
The film is targeted at heartland audiences, a group of moviegoers that Hollywood, a liberal-leaning industry, has struggled to reach in the past. Parscale’s efforts have been somewhat effective. Despite the weak tracking, insiders say the film is resonating more strongly in the South and Northwest, areas that are more receptive to President Trump.
The work was done through Parscale’s for-profit company Giles-Parscale. It has a number of corporate clients, including the Bank of San Antonio, Hotel Emma, and Trump International Reality. Parscale has said he is already working on Trump’s 2020 re-election effort. He was recently profiled on “60 Minutes,” where he talked about the critical role Facebook played in helping Trump pull off his 2016 election win.
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VOX
Article Title…
How Trump’s 2020 campaign manager is connected to the Russia scandal
Brad Parscale is linked to a data firm that has become a focus of the Trump-Russia investigation.
By Sean [email protected]@vox.com
Published: Feb 27, 2018, 1:55pm EST – By Sean Illing
From that article…
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President Donald Trump has named Brad Parscale to be his 2020 campaign manager.
On Tuesday morning, Trump released a statement calling Parscale a “longtime digital marketing strategist for President Trump” who was “essential in bringing a disciplined technology and data-driven approach to how the 2016 campaign was run.”
Trump is not being hyperbolic here: Parscale, who was in charge of the Trump campaign’s digital operations and worked closely with Facebook, Twitter, and Google to hone the campaign’s social media presence, was a huge part of why Trump won the White House. A 2017 profile on 60 Minutes called Parscale the “secret weapon” of Trump’s social media strategy.
“I understood very early that Facebook was how Trump was going to win,” Parscale said of the campaign’s use of social media during the 2016 presidential campaign. “I think we used it better than anyone ever had in history.”
But the young tech guru who ran the Trump campaign’s digital operations from his office in San Antonio is an extremely controversial choice to run the president’s 2020 campaign — particularly given that Trump’s 2016 campaign is still being investigated for potential collusion with Russia.
That’s because Parscale is intimately tied to a company called Cambridge Analytica, a shady data analytics firm that has become a major focus of both the House Intelligence Committee’s investigation into Russian meddling in the election and special counsel Robert Mueller’s probe.
Last December, Mueller requested that Cambridge Analytica turn over internal documents as part of his investigation into possible collusion between the Trump campaign and Russia during the 2016 election.
The thread connecting Russia, the Trump campaign, and Cambridge Analytica is Michael Flynn, Trump’s former national security adviser who was forced to resign after he reportedly lied to Vice President Mike Pence and the FBI about his phone conversations with a Russian envoy in 2016.
A series of reports last July by the Wall Street Journal’s Shane Harris, Michael Bender, and Peter Nicholas revealed that Peter Smith, a pro-Trump GOP operative, sought to acquire 30,000 deleted emails from Hillary Clinton’s private server. Two of the groups Smith reached out to had connections to Russia.
Smith told Harris that he was in regular contact with Flynn, who at the time was still working closely with Trump’s campaign. Harris also reported on intelligence assessments that outlined the efforts of Russian hackers to retrieve Clinton’s emails and pass them on to Flynn, who would then share them with the Trump campaign.
Via an August 2017 Associated Press report, we also know that Flynn was later forced to disclose “a brief advisory role with a firm related to a controversial data analysis company that aided the Trump campaign.”
That “data analysis” company was ( Brad Parscale’s company ) Cambridge Analytica.
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SIDENOTE: Brad Parscale himself remains one of the leading suspects with regards to who actually “gave the green light” to Wikileaks to start ‘dumping’ stolen emails just 29 minutes after Trump’s “grab ’em by the pussy” Access Hollywood tape first hit the airwaves last year.
On October 7, 2016…
At 4:03 PM – The “Access Hollywood” tape of Trump boasting about sexually harassing
women and “grabbing them by the pussy” is first released.
Just 29 minutes later…
At 4:32 PM – WikiLeaks begins posting Clinton campaign chairman John Podesta’s stolen emails.
WantsToKnowTheTruth says
Correction for the post above…
Donald Trump’s “grab ’em by the pussy” video did not come out in October of LAST year ( 2017 ).
It was first released to the public on October 7, 2016… BEFORE the 2016 election(s).
WantsToKnowTheTruth says
Followup…
Just hours ago… Facebook announced that Brad Parscale’s company ( Cambridge Analytica ) is now SUSPENDED from participating in that social media platform.
Whoops.
Pretty hard to continue to be a social media advertising troll when you are now SUSPENDED from Facebook.
Maybe Brad Parscale can go back to just paying Navy Seals to promote movies, like he did with the Yarnell Hill Fire Movie “Only The Brave”.
CBS NEWS
Article Title: Facebook suspends data firm used by Trump’s 2016 campaign
Publshed: March 17, 2018, 12:16 AM – By Caroline Linton
https://www.cbsnews.com/news/cambridge-analytica-suspended-facebook-trump-campaign/
From that article…
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Facebook on Friday suspended consulting firm Strategic Communication Laboratories, the parent company of data analytics firm Cambridge Analytica, for violating its policies on data collection and retention. President Trump’s 2016 data guru Brad Prascale, who has been named campaign manager of the 2020 re-election bid, hired Cambridge Analytica during the campaign. Cambridge Analytica has said it was key to Mr. Trump’s victory.
Julian Assange has said Wikileaks was approached by Cambridge Analytica in 2016 about potentially working together about the release of Hillary Clinton’s ( stolen ) deleted emails. According to The Wall Street Journal, Cambridge Analytica’s CEO Alexander Nix was emailed by Trump donor Rebekah Mercer asking if they might be able to better organize the release of ( the stolen ) Hillary Clinton emails by Wikileaks.
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WantsToKnowTheTruth says
**
** HEAD OF U.S. FORESTRY RESIGNS
ABC News
Article Title: U.S. Forest Service chief steps down amid sexual misconduct investigation
Published: Mar 7, 2018, 7:03 PM ET – By Stephanie Ebbs
http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/forest-service-chief-steps-amid-sexual-misconduct-investigation/story?id=53594798
From the article…
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The chief of the country’s forestry agency has stepped down amid an investigation into allegations of sexual misconduct, the U.S. Department of Agriculture confirmed to ABC News in a statement on Wednesday night.
A PBS News investigation first reported allegations against Chief Tony Tooke related to relationships with subordinates prior to when he assumed his current role. The U.S. Forest Service confirmed last week that an independent investigator was looking into concerns about Tooke’s behavior.
U.S. Agriculture Secretary Sonny Perdue confirmed that he accepted Tooke’s resignation.
The Forest Service is an agency within the USDA that fights wildfires and manages federal land. The agency had more than 35,500 employees as of September 2017, according to a federal database.
The agency has a history of problems related to sexual harassment and misconduct allegations.
The House Oversight Committee held a hearing on the issue after a Huffington Post Highline report was published in 2016 and multiple class-action lawsuits have been filed against the agency over the years.
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Woodsman says
Pattern recognition is a survival trait.
Joy A Collura says
you still exist Woodsman—
good to see you
started think you vanished like Norb and Diane 🙂
Joy A Collura says
special note to world—
Norb and Diane did not vanish
they just have the hardest time posting on IM
yet we do miss your input so maybe John Dougherty will be kind and make a new chapter ssSSoooNnnnn 😉
charlie says
That’s interesting about Donald Trump, Gary.
It’s also interesting to see how the military is doing double time right now.
I see big bus loads of troops being brought it in and tanks are on the move.
I noticed the Convoy headed California way during the night time hours.
That is unusual to see them moving in the night. What does it mean? To me it seems like ramping up for a major war effort. We weren’t able to whip their North Koreans before, and I wonder if this will turn out to be another Vietnam situation. China is backing North Korea and they’ve got plenty of bodies to supply in case North Korea runs short. Hang around as long as you can because life is going to get interesting.
Joy, nine lives but I’ve already used 6 up so I’ve got to be more careful. I’m just drinking rye whiskey mixed with apple juice for my health. The doctors ran a catheter up to my heart a couple weeks ago and couldn’t believe how clear my arteries were. Sad part of all this is it the forest service killed us by ruining our lungs with that 500,000 gallon dump on June 28 2013 and another 500,000 gal dump 2 years later. You can’t call them murderers can you? Well the population of Yarnell was reduced by over 20% in the few years after those excessive dumps of retardant. Gary Olson believes he was never affected by those retardant dumps. I think if you look closer he was affected. Young people can lose a lung and carry on. But the elders when their oxygen is compromised face tragedy. They go the way of the 20,000 plus fish that the retardant killed when dumped in a river. indeed, the resident of Yarnell during the retardant dumps had become a guinea pig for the forest service. But did the forest service list the names of the deceased after they dumped the retardant around Yarnell? Did they ever bother to investigate the situation where 20% of the population is now deceased since the retardant dumps? Do they dare look beyond the 19 wrongful deaths of the Wildland firefighters? No, reputations might be tainted. Okay before the dumps and before we hiked so many times through that s***. You took me off life support Joy so you know I was dead but if there were one good thing we could do for people would be to stop those damn dumps anywhere near a town site or a human population. Well to stop them. Because those Wild land firefighters are going to suffer in their later years.
Gary Olson says
You make a good point Sonny, I don’t even know now why I disagreed with you in the first place. How would I know what that nasty stuff does to the human body, it is chemicals? ‘Like many WF, I was painted more than a few times because we would often be at or near the head of the fire where they would be dropping, especially during the first 36 to 48 hours while the fire was being managed by Chaos and it was a rippin’ and a roarin’.
I can also tell you what would is the biggest threat to WF, it’s when that nasty stuff dries on clothes and line gear and then those things are not changed out or cleaned for days, weeks or ever. This means when it dries it would be turned into a powdered particulate form and would then be breathed continuously by the WF over time.
To make matters worse, WF wear slurry as a sign of pride in fire camp because that means you were in the shit. Nobody wanted to get hit by it because it smelled like manure and could really chafe you when it dried like around your collar, but if you did…you did.
The protocol calls for WF to lay prone out facing the drop with your hard hat on and chin strap down, but if there were trees around, I preferred to step behind one and then wait while it comes down like rain if the mix is right, the airspeed isn’t to fast and the bomber isn’t too low. There are videos of drops that have tore vehicles apart so it can hurt or kill you. Plus it can dislodge rocks and widowmakers, although I never heard of anyone being killed by a drop. But there’s a lot of things I haven’t heard of
Gary Olson says
I can tell you something else that is probably even more dangerous. And that is the powder we used to mix up big batches of jellied gasoline, especially for large scale control burns, but I It is also mixed for heli torches or vehicle mounted terra torches…I guess? We never used any breathing protection or hazmat type gloves and it kind of gets everywhere in the process.
I did have a close friend who had been a Santa Fe Hotshots for many years and had mixed a lot of that stuff up in the off season who died from kidney failure and I do know he was convinced that stuff was killing him.
charlie says
This is probably the safest place in the world considering you got 80 tanks here and busloads of troops coming out going out on the military range. They could wipe out j u a r e z and no time at all.. the only problem right here is the noise of the trains going by. Been getting ready for the rain stacking stuff and burning brush around the trailer. Lots of Mesquite and I saw two African antelope those big ones close by. Anyways doing pretty good but except for this hernia which slowed me up and my breathing is gotten worse than ever. Joy, if you came here I would give you two of these lots. There are five of them all together. Then you could build your own set up like you wanted.
I just got off the roof for this trailer. I went up there and sealed all the seams. I sealed myself as well. Me and paint and such don’t go together very well. Gary tells a sad story of how little the forest service and Wild land firefighting officials are concerned about the chemicals involved with slurry drops. The chemicals added to the slurry are trade secret, therefore, only a doctor treating a patient can find out what the hidden chemicals are. I suspect if people found out there would be quite an outrage. But that outrage ought to be expressed from just knowing the major constituents of the slurry. We do know that ammonia is a major lung cell killer. The least you breathe it the better off you are. Of course if it only depletes your lungs by 50% then you can still carry on. But the ammonia that comes off of that slurry has other dangers. Ammonium phosphate and nitrate content once applied to burning embers creates a certain amount of cyanide, a very deadly chemical well known or it’s killing effects. Now what the 5 to 15% hidden chemicals are, we have no idea. I haven’t been able to uncover any of those chemicals since I am not a doctor. And I can’t find a doctor interested enough to look into it. Even if he did he wouldn’t be able legally to reveal what he found. That stinks. How can the forest service or any government agent allow chemicals to be dumped on human beings or in the proximity of human life and human habitations without the public being informed of what those chemicals are. Life and health are being disregarded when this is allowed. When joy and I mention the deaths of so many people after the enormous slurry drops that surrounded Yarnell, we are very serious. Our own health has degraded to such a degree that both of us are limited in our actions and what we do after those slurry drops. Unbeknownst to us dangers of the slurry, we hiked through that chemical pollution many times soon after we were allowed back into the area. Joy even waded in the black chemical rain runoff. But noticing so many deaths after the drops, I began to research chemistry of the slurry. What I found and because more than 20% of the population is now deceased from Yarnell since the Yarnell fires, I now know how deadly this chemical slurry pollution can be especially to those compromised in their health already. If you go around the state where the elderly retire you will not find one city where 20% of the population dies within 3 years, unless of course it is Yarnell. We cannot let this tragic ending to people’s lives go unheard. Gary tells us of the carelessness of the forest service when they d o u s e t h e i r firefighters with these chemicals, knowing the dangers I am certain, yet not informing the men of the long term effects these pollutants will have on their health. This information that I have talked about is easily found out on Google. It is common knowledge among miners of old times that to make cyanide you simply put that dry ammonium nitrate or phosphate on to burning embers. Cyanide, as dangerous as it is, is used to release gold from sulfide ores. of course there are many old miners that suffered the side effects from being around cyanide, one of them being sudden death. It’s like my dad used to retort Mercury ores. He was very careful so he never got the effects, but Mercury ingested or fumes breathed causes one to lose all his teeth, hair to fall out, and as you have heard The Madness of Hatter’s. Hatters often we’re found insane because they were using Mercury in the process of making their hats. We are well aware that when billions are involved then many health issues will be overlooked by the and greed. when we needed uranium during the Cold War, miners were told that this low-grade uranium is harmless. that has been proven to be a lie, just as the cigarette companies told us smoking didn’t contribute to cancer. John Dougherty is doing a great work exposing the mining companies that could care less about the poor person’s health. They don’t mind creating dangerous pollution that harms people. For instance, the smelter in El Paso for years put off toxic fumes containing lead. When a psychologist tested people who had grown up within three or four mile radius of the smelter, he found that intelligent quotients we’re at least 10 points lower than people raised up outside the danger radius. the lead in the smoke was determined to be the cause, and God only knows what other effects that fumes had on people’s health. we will not tolerate continued disregard for the lives of humans. we will try to continue to educate people concerning the danger of the slurry drops.
Gary Olson says
FYI…the substance we used to make our own napalm is called Aluma-Gel.
https://www.frames.gov/fedb/13000/13663.html
I am going to take a wild guess and say that is made up of some really NASTY chemicals that most likely are hazardous to the health of those who come in direct contact with it.
charlie says
The alarm Bells went off! 9 people from Yarnell died during the month of January. The young Kevin Black is now down with throat cancer , and Bill is about dead as well. Hello folks, talking about a town that only had a population of 645 residents. There is something deadly wrong when a town that has already been cleaned out of 125 people now this last January loses nine more in one month and add to that two more and Dire Straits. Joy and I k n e w personally most of those people that are dead or suffering on the verge of death. It is sickening to say the least how the retardant has taken lives and health from the individuals and Yarnell. Indeed there is many more deaths than the 19 firefighters that must be accounted for due to the Yarnell fire and subsequent retardant slurry drops. Do not forget Yarnell got a double dose of slurry drops from Jumbo Jets exceeded 500000 gallons during the first dump alone. the second dump came a couple years later and you can see now how the chemical retardant dumps are a deadly solution to slowing wildfires. Joy and I are saddened because many of these people where our near friends we enjoyed company with. What will it take to break through the callousness of heart the money greedy and reputation guarding Forest people, fire leaders involved, and companies profiting from these deadly chemicals. We need to know what was in that retardant trade secret ingredients that were in the solution to the tune of 5 to 15%. What is going on because I had written the EPA about this, yet they didn’t see any reason to investigate. I think had it killed 20 javelina they would be on to it.
Gary Olson says
Joy,
You know me…I hate to criticize what others say, think, or do, but I am pretty sure that in order to starve a tumor to death, you have to starve to death the tumors host. Just sayin your plan doesn’t make much sense to me?
Gary Olson says
Oh…and one more thing. YOU are the tumors host.
Joy A Collura says
Not this again Gary—
I have so much to do in a day in my complex life which is rather boring and simple but let me explain since its raining here with heavy fog— YES it does mean packing only oxygenated nutrients IN with an extracted method and starving me the host of delicious succulent savory morsels but I take each day at hand and allow the body to do its healing and yes like I said last night the first meal I would beg to place on my lips was Cafe Monarch and hashtag it away all day and night or I would even like to visit my old Culinary crew and let them make me something unique and one of a kind because I know they make things for me with heart and love…and I think that would make for a great first meal…Clear fiber M-F helps me keep regulated and the weekends I allow the body r&r from that manipulated fiber method and I take in protein yet I can tell you this—the next vlog will show HOW MUCH the tumors are vanishing and I do plan to extend it past 40 days in a manner that I will keep current regimen EXCEPT I will mash and chew cucumbers and tomatoes and basil bananas and start bringing back in my avocado staples and asparagus and garlic and peppers and all the yummy stuff I am missing…It’s my one life- I did not get what Sonny got; 9 lives. So I want to be around a long time and so I know to do that I have to make sure I love the host in a way that shows her the beauties of this here world versus just getting by and saying I made it or I survived this or that…All my life I waited thinking someone else would show me the world through rosey glasses but I gave my heart a fresh start and this year I am my own Valentine…sounds gay huh…I made me my Valentine choice…it was soooo easy I said what do I want to hear this 2018 and I said I want to hear “Will you be my Valentine’s?” and so sappy me knows that is not gonna happen in real time so I said “Self, will you be my Valentine?” and I replied “Hell yes, you amaze me” 🙂 hee hee self love baby hee hee Who else better than me…I am always there for me…when you think about I am my own life experiment and I am a work of art…messy like VanGo Picasso; hee hee…thanks for the concern but I am locked in this method because I am once and for all going to balance my mind body and soul…I deserve it…
Gary Olson says
Well okay then. I don’t think I will try it for my tumor though, the process sounds just to darn complicated. And you know…Arizona Road Lizard CRAZY!
Joy A Collura says
rather be a Arizona Road Lizard CRAZY than a Lounge Lizard 😉
Gary Olson says
Although truthfully, whenever I talk about my brain tumor, it’s just a shallow ploy for sympathy. It was discovered by accident during a routine brain scan and it has never bothered me except for random outbreaks of something very similar to Tourette’ Syndrome whenever I go into Walmart to shop. Nowhere else…just Walmart, if you don’t count the outbreaks here on this thread, which I don’t.
After watching all of this news about background security investigations though, I think I might be screwed now if I was to ever need to have my Top Secret security Clearance renewed. Maybe I should have thought that one through before starting down this road? Whoops. I went through four of them over an 18 year period, and they were always stressful because no security clearance…no job.
Gary Olson says
Oh…and one more thing. The reason I don’t count my outburst on this thread is because my anger was righteous. And if you weren’t as outraged as I was…either you weren’t paying attention or you bought into “The Big Lie” being perpetuated by the agencies and the Yavapai County FIRE Cabal Cosa Nostra.
http://ourfiregods.com/reserved4.html
I’m pretty much over it now though. My rightoues anger has been replaced by resignation and acceptance. They won…again. So…
Gary Olson says
News Flash….Dateline….New York City, In case you missed it.
OK…that’s enough for me! I am throwing down the bullshit card on President Trump! Omarosa has ratted him out on “Big Brother, Celebrity Edition “and that’s enough for me because she was his wing woman originally.
Omarosa said we would all have to bow down to him when he won because it was the ultimate revenge and now she says she wouldn’t vote for him again in a million years.
And furthermore, she said, “It’s not my circus, not my monkeys, I’d like to say not my problem but I can’t say that because — like, it’s bad,” She also said, “No,” she said, “it’s going to not be OK. It’s not.” And, “I was haunted by tweets every single day, like what is he going to tweet next?” she said.
I am pretty sure this means it time to begin impeachment proceedings and have Omarosa testify against him. You pickin’ up what I’m puttin’ down? So… it. News Flash….Dateline….New York City
OK…that’s enough for me! I am throwing down the bullshit card on President Trump! Omarosa has ratted him out on “Big Brother, Celebrity Edition “and that’s enough for me because she was his wing woman originally.
Omarosa said we would all have to bow down to him when he won because it was the ultimate revenge and now she says she wouldn’t vote for him again in a million years.
And furthermore, she said, “It’s not my circus, not my monkeys, I’d like to say not my problem but I can’t say that because — like, it’s bad,” She also said, “No,” she said, “it’s going to not be OK. It’s not.” And, “I was haunted by tweets every single day, like what is he going to tweet next?” she said.
I am pretty sure this means it time to begin impeachment proceedings and have Omarosa testify against him. You pickin’ up what I’m puttin’ down? So…
Gary Olson says
Whoa now! Repeat…repeat. That training I received from the Department of Redundancy Department is really paying off!
Gary Olson says
Oh…and one more thing. Watching the daily news pertaining to the Trump Administration is kinda like watchin’ the Jerry Springer Show in the old days except thermonuclear missiles may be launched on any given day instead of chairs being thrown. So…you know…it’s a lot more exciting for me to watch.
Joy A Collura says
man..another Xanax moment for Gary
poor Gary
A reality show usually means FARTHEST from reality Gary…
MUCH editing for their agenda purpose and effect to make it popular and be influential to the cookie cutter minds that watch it and build trust in those engaging like you…ie. Gary
Those like Gary who are following the trails of the deepest darkest jungles ducking when they hear a noise between the vegetation looking and watching for the poison darts and spears hurtl’ing into Gary’s direction…
OK PEOPLE… take one…scene 2…
thank you Gary
Joy A Collura says
I did not say the above because you said life is not all about me and the Bill Murray insert but because Gary reality shows, I would say that the producers AREN’T concerned with the truth. That’s not high on any producer’s list of things that they’re attempting to capture. I would say that in best case scenarios, the essential truth of a scene or scenario is conveyed, and in worst case scenarios, it is completely falsified. SO just because they edited that Omarosa bit as it was done does not mean REALITY…if people edited the insert I did on my area awhile back on you then it could be taken out of context…have you seen the hashtag “HootSuite”, TweetDeck, Monitter, Trendsmap, Google Feedburner, Klout, TweetLevel, Twitalyzer after some of the stuff you put out….have you ever seen your rating???…
When I say facts another labels it biased opinions yet it is facts when it reflects this phase to my life that is ever-changing…I can tell you this Gary…there is always perceptions…we all share diverse ones here…let me ask you Gary, do you like roses? Not because in less than a week a Holiday is upon us…I would like to know if I said the word ROSES…what color? I think of Sultry Sangria Heirloom Roses or the Koko Loko…or the Smokin’ Hot…or the palest pink…https://img00.deviantart.net/f9b5/i/2013/193/f/9/thy_rarest_rose_by_marsiams-d6c14uv.jpg
but we have to ask ourselves Gary when some are on IM saying we are all on the same page here; I sit back an ponder “are we on the same book though…” or can one read…or comprehend…do you know HOW MANY years it took me to comprehend Bob Powers and the infamous RTS, Gary…Yeah, something sooooo simple…I have some areas I am okay at…but alot more areas I never even discovered yet…My husband tonight when I was talking to Aclu fella when I hung up asked me “is your life always going to be about the fires” and I replied it really has no yet even begun…
So I ask Gary that rose you are holding…are you seeing its beauty or are you focusing to the thorns…and the ooohhs and ahhhs…recently I learned to become one step closer to engaging in adult life vs. being a housewife hermit…I thought it long and hard (33 seconds) because in reality I cannot ever see me wondering if Omarosa’s edited conversation is TRUTH or NOT…but I can tell you if you believe your political rant made an impact on me…I think we all should worry about when the lights go out in Georgia…because Julie Chen took a pay cut just to get these folks on tv…
44 y.o. Omarosa Onee Manigault should only be getting “happy birthday” from me as her bday just passed as far as my comments…Trump was not her first rodeo at the White House and you should know Gary her in 1990 there as a Deputy Associate Director in the White House…she has history…she is not a dumb lady and well calculated….Central State University is a historically black university located in Wilberforce, Ohio and she got her BA…in 97′ she started Studying M.A. from Howard University and then back to her white house job yet again…I like that God led her path to Aaron Harvey Stallworth…neat God blessed man…so whatever lies ahead FOR ALL OF US I feel pretty happy I know God is there waiting….Some of us walk away with degrees from community colleges or Universities or that school of hard knocks but no matter where we come from or where we are going I know one thing I am NEVER going to take the news from Gary because what a reality person says as GOLD but maybe by some backup water perhaps (just in case you are right ;)) hee hee
When I hung out in CA, Gary and NO not with Norb or Bob but down in the areas you mention … I was playing a version of myself — a character — and with a nudge here and a shove there, it was clear what character these Hollywood folks wanted me to play and it was never ME…point is IT IS ALL FAKE…I didn’t feel it was a discredit to my true character because the situations that I was put in and the things I was asked to say were so far beyond my own reality that anyone I cared about who saw they knew ME…so I will let you have your jaw dropping rants as I insert a jaw breaker…really, OMAROSA Gary???? ugh. “oh my”
Joy A Collura says
sorry for typos
Gary Olson says
Okay, forget about using Omarora to impeach President Trump. I would be lost without the daily sideshow he produces for us at this point anyway. Removing him from office sure isn’t worth a civil war. I always just shrug and remind myself, “Elections have consequences.”
Maybe next time more people vote and those who don’t want another four years of a Trump Presidency won’t do really stupid things they thought were cute like casting protest votes for candidates who can’t possibly win like those idiots Sanders and Stein?
I guess I like roses? I never thought about it before. I can’t think of a flower I don’t like since I try to be inclusive at this point in my life. And if I had to pick a color, I guess I would do like almost everyone else and pick red. And no, I don’t like thorns of any kind and I do try to avoid things that hurt me. And no, I have never seen my rating, I didn’t know we had one.
Joy A Collura says
Gary-
I was on hike and I tried to post via phone-
no luck.
Sun, Feb 11, 2018 at 1:22 PM
Gary, I would never want to get a water Hemlock flower or the deadly nightshade flower and I reckon I think flowers are pretty outdoors but my mom likes them indoors for oxygen based reasons as she does Pilates and smokes Vantage 100s…I don’t get this world Gary…I am just making my way through it.
I can say this RAIN is in the forecast here so I did alot of hiking this weekend to make up the miles I will miss…I am on the 5th week as of yesterday of the fast and about 5 hours were hard today because I do all this activities and yet not getting some results I would like as FAST as my head would like yet Gary maybe that is a safe good thing…anyways I plan to extend fast until my goal is reached but incorporating soon say mashed cucumbers or gentle on the GI kinda oxygenated foods…I never liked red roses…I rather for the price of those to be practical and get me an inexpensive Blue Chinese Wisteria Tree or purple Yankee Doodle lilac bush or OMG how about hydrangeas (mmmmmm)….and some day I want a specific pine tree young one…do you like trees more than you do roses? I do. If I had a choice between a thorny rose bush I would pick a tree first…or cacti…The hardest loss I have had was my massive…mine was in the top 3 in the state of Arizona but a 100yr flood washed and killed it…SAD FACE indeed…and my other fav that just died this year was my massive saguaro and Aloe Ferox and it the feroc was 5 feet tall and so beautiful…I miss her indeed. Well enough about plants…I am trying to figure how to use a drone and SMOVE this hour than crash…I tried awhile ago to sleep then I tossed and turned and said forget it let me go answer Gary but I did at 1:22pm just never made it but I saved it in my inbox to post so there ya have it…Good night..
Joy A Collura says
duh.
the one that died was an aloe dichotoma
sad face
Joy A Collura says
na- na- na- na- na- (hum the McDonald’s your loving it theme song…)
the YHF is not the only place LYING …I mean I was laying there thinking how hard it is to reduce the scale # when in the day it was super simple (age and health most likely)…and I have not been near a Mcdonald’s (Sonny’s favorite place to get senior coffee 2 and 2) in almost a year…I never liked McDonald’s and I am not lying there…just was easy for Sonny to split a meal there as he was always in a rush and thankfully the visit was 1 time a month on the first..(thank you Jesus)…my father loved Burger King and I could not stand that place either for that fake smelling grilled burgers; chemicals….My mom NEVER has stepped into a fast food for food maybe to use restroom but never drinks or food; she is a sit down kinda gal in a nice high dollar spot…anyways it made me think Gary…how many are lying in this world besides some on the YHF who hiding stuff is to me the same as some layer to a LIE…how many billions has been sold at McDonald’s and yet how many millions are living? Do the math, huh…Yeah someone is lying that they do not go there to McDonald’s…”just saying”…and we all know that place is just as bad as throwing down a Hot Pocket which I never was into but my brother Bill did as a teen and Combos pretzel filled nougats; pizza flavor while my other brother was a Twinkie fan…anyways after being on this fast I thought would I ever go to a fast food place again? I rarely ate out much except the hot spotting phase and well that is dead and buried and never would do that again but I thought what place would I go to for my first meal out and I always enjoyed my old living spots eateries like HASHTAG Cafe Monarch…mmmm….I am a bit strange as they come because I have no quarrels in the day to drop $200-300 on my meal alone there…their steaks are my thing…I am blood type O so steak is my thing really…anyways my palette is not for Mickie Dees…only had shared meals because it was Sonny’s thing—if you had not ate solids for 40 days or more Gary what would your first meal be?
Joy A Collura says
As a kid Gary my family would tell you I was into not only climbing trees and identifying their common name but their scientific name and I would watch the weather and how they were treated each year and at age 4 I would water them if I felt they were not getting enough naturally. I was indeed a tree dweeb for sure—I fell out of many in my day too up in Pine Arizona my family would call my name and I would be so tiny and wave all happy at all of them so high up and as they looked at me so scared and I would just think I could fly so yes I did end up in emergency rooms here and there…I will show you a pic back channel some time…indeed a tree nut…and indeed not the brightest girl on the block yet bright in other ways…
I
H E A R T
Trees.
What is Woodsman up to anyways???
retired yet 😉
Sonny would say there is 2 kinds of trees too- the cord illegally cut in the back of his international
https://www.dropbox.com/sh/gb0ax9cykwvrsav/AAC3HhPQPpMK8gqLUk1LTqCba?dl=0&preview=P1000177.JPG
or the one he had not yet chain sawed-
Joy A Collura says
Gary- if he was not out loading cords of wood—the ol’ miner logger was also the most underpaid cowboy as he will tell you the Mexicans made more than he did…probably because the rancher did not care for Sonny staying in their humble abodes as Sonny took his pistol inside and shot mice of the wood rafters near the ceiling at night …but Sonny since young and even today likes old vehicles and fixing them up—
Sonny:
https://www.dropbox.com/sh/gb0ax9cykwvrsav/AAC3HhPQPpMK8gqLUk1LTqCba?dl=0&preview=P1000176.JPG
Gary Olson says
Your comment is awaiting moderation.
Chicken noodle soup or whatever the experts recommend because your body is going to react negatively I think?
Gary Olson says
Well…you certainly know a lot about flowers. And yes, I like trees, who doesn’t like trees? Although it sounds like there are some flowers I wouldn’t like and I do know of at least one tree I don’t like that some idiot thought was a good idea to plant all along the block fence sepersting the house from the street in Paradise Valley where we lived in during my first five year sentence in the Valley Of The Sun.
Those were Russian Olive trees, because they didn’t need much water they seemed to be a favorite of desert landscapers in Land Of Mordor. I used to have to clean up around them and trim them. Talk about thorns, my arms would be streaming blood with the sweat…yes Woodsman, STREAMING blood I say.
Although that reminds me of one of my old standby stories from NAU. They have a highly respected and well known school of Forestry there and people would sometimes say to me, “Say…you work for the Forest Service, what kind of tree is that? I would always reply the same way, “I’m a Firefighter, there are only two kinds of trees, those that are on fire, and those that aren’t. That one is the kind that’s not are fire.”
Oh…and one more thing. I should have said the Trump Presidency reminds me of the Jerry Springer Show except the entire world is their stage and the cast of characters is infinite. Although I thought we had it all once Stormy Daniels was on set and we had see it all. But nope…they just keep coming.
I don’t know about you RTS…but I’m not willing to give him a mulligan on that one even though the Evengalical leaders are. I know forgiveness is a cornerstone of our common Christian Faith, but I also know sinners have to first repent and atone for their sins…right? And President Trump hasn’t even admitted what he did much less asked the Lord for forgiveness. What do you think?
Gary Olson says
Whoops, ….”that one is the kind that’s not ON fire.”
Gary Olson says
Nahhhh…I screwed that stroll down memory lane up. That was bougainvilleas the landscapers planted everywhere on that lot in PV. Those things are really nasty with thorns. Pretty…but NASTY.
I can’t remember now where I used to get hurt by Russian Olive trees? It will come to me and I will get back with uou on that one.
Gary Olson says
I posted this historical document (1977) to assist both Bob and RTS (and other US Forest Service old timers, it is in the shape of the USFS Shield) in taking a little stroll down memory lane.
I pasted one on the inside of my hardhat underneath the suspension webbing when I started as a hotshot in 1975 so I could study it during breaks. Pretty good idea huh?
I should have submitted that as an Employee Suggestion….or did everybody else think of that one too?
http://ourfiregods.com/reserved1.html
Like we discussed the other day, my favorite was always Number 10, which I also thought should have been Numba One. And technically…in support of my Minimalist Theory of Safety, if you always followed that ONE order, that was the only one you needed….right?
I mean…it kind of sums up the other 9 plus all of the other safety advisories, guidelines, suggestions, standard operating procedures, general orders, policies, directives and recommendations…right?
Gary Olson says
Oh…and one more thing. I have been watching wayyyyy to much news the past couple of days about this whole, “Memo” thing and how the FBI and the DOJ are corrupted by left wing people who let politics get in the way of them doing their jobs. And everyone who has been following this thread know I trash talked about the FBI, but that’s just because they think they know everything, but they don’t know how to go into the backcountry like those of us who have worked and lived in the backcountry our whole lives can and do. So anyway…I‘m pissed off, so it’s time for another one of my work stories because this is my only outlet to express myself and you are among my closest friends and confidants.
President Bill Clinton and Vice President Al Gore went to the Grand Canyon in 1996 to sign the Presidential Proclamation creating the almost 2 million acre Grand Staircase – Escalante National Monument, that dumb ass President Trump has now greatly reduced in size. As you can imagine, having both the President and Vice President in the same place at the same time was a really big security deal involving hundreds of security people from dozens of agencies. Most of these were variations of special operations type tactical teams because they were covering mostly outdoor areas and uniformed people because they were assigned to static posts like in stairwells or wherever. I had just been instructed to bring both casual clothing and BDUs and show up in the high school gym at Tusayan at a certain time.
I expected to be either guarding a tree or a doorway and I was good with that, it all pays the same as we used to say on the fire line. But when I checked in… they told me to go into a room off the gym and I found I had been selected to be the USDI departmental representative on the three person inter-agency React Team assigned to President Clinton’s security detail. The React Team was made up of a Senior Secret Service Special Agent, a Coconino County Sheriff’s Office Detective and me…go figure? But…I just rolled with it because you know, “Sometimes you eat the bar and sometimes the bar eats you.” (The Cowboy in “The Big Lebowski”) I didn’t ask any questions since I learned early in my career to never ask the question I didn’t want to know the answer to which at the time was, “Why aren’t I guarding a tree or a doorway?” The inter-agency nature of that React Team was necessary because of the specific and compartmentalized nature of our nation’s laws.
The big deal was I got to be there when the President got off his plane which looked wayyyyy to big to be landing at the Tusayan airport and then I got to ride in his motorcade and hundreds of people were lining the streets waving to me as I went by; I felt very special and wanted. The only exciting thing that happened all day was some local Utah cowboys showed up with a big red, white and blue sign with a cartoon of the “Where’s Waldo” character that said, “Where’s OsWaldo?” as they were standing by their pickup truck on the motorcade route.
It was really a very clever sign and they had put a lot of work into it, but they screwed up because they had hunting rifles just like every other Utah cowboys has in their truck, which combined with the funny but implied threat against the President and Vice President of the United States backed up by high powered scoped rifles, made it turn into a very bad day for them. This was because the Secret Service guy I was with didn’t think anything about it was funny at all. And you know me, I do what I am told to do just as long as it isn’t illegal, immoral or any of those other reasons RTS is always quoting. And having those rifles in a National Park was illegal at that time and that was my area of jurisdiction on land administered on behalf of YOU PEOPLE by the USDI…my employer at the time. And I always tried my best to ride hard for the brand.
The only other exciting thing that happened as a result of that incident, is we weren’t where we were supposed to be when the President and Vice President got out of their vehicles at the historic El Tovar Lodge on the very scenic South Rim of the Grand Canyon. So we had to sprint from where we were with the cowboys on the entrance road to where the lodge was to catch up with the rest of the detail so we could be in position for the next problem, which thankfully never came. It was a good thing I wasn’t bullshitting you about not skimping on the Stairmaster because sometimes I did have to run or hike really long distances in the backcountry with a team, which was kind of like being on a fire with a hotshot crew, except we carried different tools.
So anyway…I was jogging as half speed as we ran in and out between parked cars in a huge parking lot that was packed with vehicles. And as I zigged when I should have zagged between one car in particular, a man stepped out of the front passenger side just as I ran past the rear of his vehicle. I immediately applied my brakes in an attempt to make a full stop but as you know, I weigh a lot. And forward momentum (velocity) X mass (my body weight) and E=mc2 because of the loose gravel on the asphalt meant I came very close to crushing the man who stepped out of that car because his back was up against his open car door, which wasn’t going to open any further in his favor.
Luckily for him (and me) I slid on the gravel and managed to stop just short of seriously hurting him but our noses were almost touching. Well technically…his nose was almost touching my sternum. It was another one of those weird moments in my life when my brain slowed down time by warping the space I was occupying and I saw his eyes get bigger and bigger the closer I got to him. By the time I managed to come to a complete stop…his eyes were about the size of small saucers. I was able to note one thing with interest as I was sliding towards him on the loose gravel, he had big blue eyes. The other thing I noticed as my mind once again took individual slides of what I was experiencing in slow motion with a…click…click…click, was the man with the big eyes was the actor Robert Redford who was attending the signing ceremony as a special guest of the President. The second good thing that happened that day, was they let us eat the fancy sandwiches after THOSE people were done eating lunch, because there were a lot of environmentally minded celebrities and political big shots there that day. But they had a lot of those little sandwiches and they were really good.
So…I know what you are wondering by now, IF you have made it this far. WTF does this have to do with my watching too much news today and being pissed off…right? The point of this story is this; the React Team just spent a lot of time that day just hangin’ out wherever the President was shootin’ the breeze while we waited for somebody to do something stupid. And IF they had and they had been lucky, they would have got to meet us and not one of the sniper or tactical teams. And this may surprise you, but at the time I had not yet morphed from a conservative caterpillar into a more progressive butterfly by digesting myself and converting an amorphous mess of cell soup into eyes, wings, antennae and other body parts of an adult butterfly.
And what is more…the Senior Secret Service Special Agent (who was Black or African American if you prefer) and detective (who was a standard Arizona White Guy) I was with, were also conservative law enforcement types and neither one of them liked President Clinton or Vice President Gore either. And so we spent part of the day bitchin’ about the damn liberals and you know…the damn Democrats. And while that was going on…I thought to myself, “What an amazing, wonderful and very special country I live in. Here I am hangin’ out with two guys I don’t even know and all of us feel free to complain about the politics of the people we were prepared to step in front of a bullet for without any fear…or even any concern of retaliation.” And today…I hope that very beautiful thing about our country isn’t changing?
So the bottom line is this; law enforcement is no different than FIRE. I worked for 14 years in FIRE and 20 years in law enforcement without ever knowing or even caring about of the politics or party affiliation of any person I worked except by sheer happenstance. And I never met, or ever even heard about any person who ever, at any time, for any reason, let their politics or personal opinions interfere with their job and the mission…period. And if I did find out by accident, they were almost always conservative Republicans because of the nature of those jobs and the people in those jobs.
There is ONE other thing that I witness that day that I found very interesting and humorous. Wherever the President or Vice President went, there was what they called Counter Assault Teams (CAT) very close to them. Even though I was prepared and willing to do my part and step in front of a bullet that day; not for President Clinton mind you, but for the President of the United States of America, I was pretty sure nobody was counting on me to actually save the day. And that is because I think they would loo to the CAT first.
These guys looked really bad ass crammed into armored Suburban’s with full black ninja suits, body armor, black balaclavas and ballistic helmets. And I didn’t even want to know what kind of firepower they had in those Suburban’s because I didn’t want them to have to kill me. Except at one point, and that is when they jumped out of their vehicles, stripped off their hoods and helmets and ran over to pose for a group photo on the edge of the spectacular Grand Canyon. They were laughing and joking for a few minutes and they looked like a college football team on spring break. And then the moment was suddenly over…and they looked really bad ass again.
And yes…IF you are wondering, IF I found myself in that same position today on a similar detail, I would take a bullet for President Donald Trump and you know how I feel about him. Not because he is President Trump; but because he is the President of the Untied States of America and everyone who is in the FBI, DOJ and every other serious American like most of you, would do the very same thing. So…lighten up on those agencies, they are staffed by patriotic Americans, just like you..
Oh…and one more thing. When the detail was finally over and I left the Grand Canyon National Park, nobody was lining the roadway to wave at me as I went by so I didn’t feel particularly special or wanted any longer.
Gary Olson says
And to round out my day, I did follow my old friend RTS’ advice and watch Fox News? To my surprise, anchor Shepard Smith said he thinks “The Memo” is a big “nothing burger” and anchor Neil Capitol said he didn’t know what to think?
I have taken a couple of Xanax and I have had some shots of bourbon and just as soon as the Xanax kick in…I am even going to check in with Breitbart, Mark Levin, Michelle Malkin (because she is HOT) and Alex Jones to hear and read what they think about the memo.
Gary Olson says
Neil Caputo, damn auto spell. What do you think RTS? Do you think Michelle Malkin is HOT and NASTY looking too?
Joy Collura says
Gary…did the bourbon kick in…??? We know the Xanax did.
Here is Michelle in her natural hot and nasty form RTS…please stick with Antastasia…Gary…she is a fire and I like Shell-
She reminds me of an old co-worker during college Kaja…
http://i.imgur.com/r00NtJU.jpg
Well I love freaking life. Love it.
Gary Olson says
No…they haven’t kicked in yet and this news cycle is driving me CRAZY!
I’m afraid I am going to have to paraphrase Associate Justice of the Supreme Court, Potter Stewart when he said, “I shall not today attempt further to define the kinds of material I understand to be embraced within that shorthand description [hard-core pornography]; and perhaps I could never succeed in intelligibly doing so. But I know it when I see it, and the motion picture involved in this case is not that”
So…I shall not attempt to further define what makes Michelle Malkin look so NASTY, but I know it when I see it.
Although given that post and your earlier Email, I am starting to think you must be on…something?
Joy A Collura says
Gary, I feel like I am on this fluffy cloud in Heaven….
I am at my 4 week part of a 40 day fast—it is life changing.
I mean serious I feel like I am “living” a book I would read….some kind of intense niacin flush that gives one a rush…
I feel like the angelic plane I have reached…
I am there.
it feels like I can feel every single beat of my heart…
the smiles that radiates my face feels so permanent…
I feel how close we are to the TRUTH to the forefront…
I feel like the part of my soul that was broken is just healing forever…
its freaking contagious this smile of mine…it is…
I was doing cartwheels and skipping down the Weavers today From Yarnell doing my 10 miles and getting texts from locals asking WHAT IS IT THAT HAS YOU CAPTIVATED?
I want that they wrote.
I move about like I am a fresh kid to life and jump up and down…it is too cool, Gary.
I said I love life…I do…I like it because noone but you Gary get it…Xanax or no xanax…you get it…Moab Baby Moab…jeep trails baby…Sonny gets you Gary…he is out jeeping right now in NM…I think he is tearing NM a new hole…as much as he gets…and he is getting around…
The GMHS shuttle bus driver had the hugest smile as I was twirling down the highway as he bussed the recent GMHS state park hikers back to Yarnell and his smile was HUGE as I was being so silly but I had just heard wonderful news…
I have bumper sticker idea Gary —- “Fire & Desire”—
I use to lay in the gray of my mind…where at time the blue haze would sting me…no longer…
Gary —you ready..get set…START
what is the first thing that comes to your mind when I say the word HEART?
For me, I think of chemicals…not beer or whiskey…I have to admit and my dad will tell you if he was still alive I am an adrenaline junkie…to get my heart racing…that is about rare…a cardiac electrophysiologist will tell you as I do their tests and they are like ???? but recently I feel the thumps … we are so close to having the data be to the surface…so close…
It is like we have all seen a 1000s winds blow…or that sun touch to the diamond glints on snow… adrenaline, epinephrine and norepinephrine; they are all pumped…do a 40 day fast, Gary…it will change you…
you will love it and may it show you areas to your life you only imagined in your head as I have had in 2018…Mother freaker Gary…I am not kidding….I am for reals…the fast will change you.
slow down (but not as much as Dr Ted Putnam)…enough to appreciate the blessings…smile and right now take in a deep breath…compliment one person today like say RTS since we both are always so hard on him here 😉 and focus on how awesome life is and name 3 things you are grateful for RIGHT NOW…
me; what I am grateful for:
1) way close to the T R U T H being a public display for the world
2) being able to walk those 10 miles today and yesterday with a bad knee…bad groin…bad hip and one hell of a blister…but wasn’t wearing my Whites gary–shit…
3) having no fear to open up an area I feared to do and that is a miracle…and not talking about recent times of skydiving…yet that event was nuts…but when I talked to my brother and my husband about how I need them to get me and allow me this moments because really I do deserve it…I do…
was it you Sonny who said I am bad and that is good and I will never be good and that’s not bad ???
Sense of humor…taste of adventures…may you have an open confident healthy glow…life is funny…most girls I met like the bad boys and they expect the bad boy to be just good to her and then the guys want good girls but be just bad for them…strange world huh…
I will end this Gary by saying I am GLAD I have KNOWN sadness because it made for me to really appreciate pure happiness…I know what I am thinking would bother most cookie cutters especially in my own neighborhood…I do not care…have mercy on me…
I can say this much…all the funds and time put out to make this time happen soon enough…all the books and movies in the world that have been made or still gonna will be like I just wish I would of waited to call this true story
just saying…
over…you turn Gary
looking forward to see the people who were on that fire see their reactions…..I have to see if I can make that happen first….
Gary Olson says
Joy,
I am going to be completely serious right now and you need to read this. You are fuckin’ out of your mind crazy and if you were institutionalized right now they would have you strapped to a bed and on a feeding tube.
If your husband, brother and whoever else is in your real life love you they will have an intervention for you and get you some professional help and to a hospital like…right now.
And in this case, I am like our President Trump because I am like…a really smart guy who is using all the best words.
Joy A Collura says
Joy,
I am going to be completely serious right now and you need to read this. You are fuckin’ out of your mind crazy and if you were institutionalized right now they would have you strapped to a bed and on a feeding tube.
———–
I read what you wrote (I do not agree)…what have I said or wrote that qualifies me such way? Because I live away from the normal way to life and hike M-F on the Weavers trying to keep gaining fire data? Or on the weekends you may see me fixing my pc or out at the shooting range or watching a movie or visiting the elders in town? Or because I allow myself to let go and let God work on my physical in the ways it needs to for healing? I cannot figure out what I did to make you feel I am crazy? Because I challenge the IC of YHF and one day it wont be a challenge just another chapter to this here journey of truths because to “know” me…is to know truth and heart…not craziness….I am respectful to self and others and fair and kind…even with my husband who I have said is my best bud and I did not enter that area normally or traditional and my husband would tell you like when Sonny use to wear his tshirts inside out (who does that)…my husband always felt if I just turned my shirts inside out to normal than I would be alright but you Gary have no idea the haunts of my earlier life that in real time I should be “crazy” for what I have seen to life but I am not—but I do believe in truth…I just do not roll in life like others…mine is all about happy energetic in the moments not programmed stuff and my brothers and my mother will tell you Gary I just have a unique style in living life…some use chemical liquids to make their day “happy” and well I am naturally just that way…so you have your perceptions and maybe others feel like you do but I do not live my life like the world—I live it like a joyful Wonder Woman using truth lassos…hee hee…I am a happy person and I follow heart in my own life…so I respect your perception but I do not agree…
————————–
If your husband, brother and whoever else is in your real life love you they will have an intervention for you and get you some professional help and to a hospital like…right now.
why? I do not get it. I reckon you never fasted for God before? I am doing good. Ask people here who have seen me…all is good…
And in this case, I am like our President Trump because I am like…a really smart guy who is using all the best words.
I am okay Gary…the only difference from 2017 to now is this fast and I have allowed God to use me and I agree there is a foreign newness but in the start of the year I had hard time getting going but now with the fast I am back to walking and the fast includes extracting oxygenated only nutrients and drinking alkaline water…I am watching Halle Barry in KIDNAP…I know what you mean about Heart Attack…I could not imagine to see my son be placed in a vehicle…intense highway scene…
Gary Olson says
Joy,
Although I am not a medical professional, or no longer a professional of any kind, I am pretty sure a 40 day fast is very unhealthy and potentially deadly. Or could simply result in permanent damage, like I don’t know…the muscle around your heart?
And even though not being a professional of any kind includes being a mental health professional, I am pretty sure anybody who is convinced a 40 day fast is a good thing to do could probably be classified as fuckin’ crazy.
BUT…I learned a long time ago that arguing with you is a complete waste of my time, even though I do have a lot of time to waste.
And in any case, I have done what I think is right and what I can do, which is to state my concern. So…you go girl!
Just don’t try to tell me even if this experiment works out for you it was a good idea. And that is because even somebody playing Russian Roulette can get lucky five clicks in a row…but the sixth one will be a real bitch (non gender specific).
And in any case, none of that means playing Russian Roulette was a good idea in the first place, even if you get a click when your turn comes. I mean…didn’t you even see “The Deer Hunter?”
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=OuGSXflBoWU
Gary Olson says
Oh…and one more thing. I made a career out of pushing the envelope (which I do not recommend to others by the way) you scare me and I try to be fearless.
And when the grid goes down, I am going to beg you to save me, so…
Gary Olson says
Whoops,
…BUT you scare me…
Gary Olson says
But…I’m not delusional since I know the weak link in my survival plan is the Internet won’t work when the grid goes down…so I might be screwed?
Joy A Collura says
reply in bold below
Joy,
Although I am not a medical professional, or no longer a professional of any kind, I am pretty sure a 40 day fast is very unhealthy and potentially deadly. Or could simply result in permanent damage, like I don’t know…the muscle around your heart?
——–
as for the heart that is why I walk 8 to 15 miles M-F—as for protein I take that in my extract of oxygenated greens which is by essential living and organic with hemp protein AND I am properly hydrated and oxygenated every day and if I was not— that is dangerous Gary— Fasting for 40 days is a great way to transform your Spiritual and physical health. I also do it for autophagy Gary…I’ve seen that it releases atomic power in the Spiritual realm…It’s a missing piece in many Christian’s lives today…ask how many Christians do it or have done it…most say that is old testament or simply no…Down through the years, Godly people who have done Mighty Things for God have testified to the necessity of prayer with fasting.(gonna copy and paste for a sec)…It is a way to humble ourselves before God (Psalm 35:13; Ezra 8:21). It brings revelation of our spiritual condition resulting in brokenness and change. It brings personal revival through the powerful moving of the Holy Spirit in our lives. It helps us better understand the Bible by making it more vital and practical. It transforms prayer into a richer and more personal experience. the Old and the New Testaments (see Isaiah 58:5, Psalm 69:10, Matthew 23:12, I Peter 5:6, and James 4:8-10). Humility is an attitude of the heart. “A broken and a contrite heart, O God, you will not despise (Psalm 51:17) (KJV).” God will hear us and respond to our cry when we come before Him in humility and brokenness–acknowledging and repenting of our sins, and asking Him to cleanse us by the blood of Jesus and to fill us with His Holy Spirit.
Fasting is not always the easiest godly discipline to practice. For those unaccustomed to it, going without food can be a struggle. The mental and emotional battles that may break out when we fast can sometimes be unsettling. Veteran fasters say this is a sure sign of the need to abstain from food and draw close to God. (end of Donna Partrow copy/paste)
———————-
And even though not being a professional of any kind includes being a mental health professional, I am pretty sure anybody who is convinced a 40 day fast is a good thing to do could probably be classified as fuckin’ crazy.
I like to call it in tune with my mind and body and soul… you call it crazy…it’s all good 🙂
————————————–
BUT…I learned a long time ago that arguing with you is a complete waste of my time, even though I do have a lot of time to waste.
it is never a waste of my time to engage with people seeking the truth to the YHF… also I do chew slow but not swallow until well chewed basil and mint and tomatoes so my jaw has the chewing action just so you know Gary and I use clear fiber so that area never fails on me during ketosis…but my husband will agree I am stubborn or hard-headed and yet if a NY pizza sat on my lap right now I might give up but go to Walmart or the places I have to choose for as eateries…not really too many around…however recently I did have the broth only part of ThaiPho at Tara’s in Prescott so I could socialize if that helps your psyche mentality of starving myself…I am a hermit but not ever second… and El Gato Azul made a very nice posole broth so I can socialize but I did not eat the matter in it but at Thai’s I had 3 tiny mini broccolis I chewed on and oh was it delicious…so YES I am not eating solids and yes I am staying FULLY hydrated and taking supplements to support the heart and skin and muscles…I am not an idiot…well I am when it comes to certain folks in this fire dealio…I mean last August should of never happened but it did and that person was probably thinking something a norm to me and it was just one whacked out day in its entirety and well I don’t error much like that but it is what it is…but I look at silver linings from bad situations anyways…thanks for the concern but doubt I will die from this…I feel too damn happy and good…but the fear of something else in me…but that won’t work…
————————–
And in any case, I have done what I think is right and what I can do, which is to state my concern. So…you go girl!
I will go and take my sodium, potassium, calcium, phosphate, and magnesium supplements now 😉 and when I bring foods back in I will start with 10 calories of body weight per day…Supplement with thiamine and other B vitamins 30 minutes before breaking the fast ….supplement with phosphorous, potassium, magnesium, and sodium before breaking the fast. —–
Just don’t try to tell me even if this experiment works out for you it was a good idea. And that is because even somebody playing Russian Roulette can get lucky five clicks in a row…but the sixth one will be a real bitch (non gender specific).
in a sense Gary— this is not my first rodeo when it comes to fasting silly— how do you think I can be so intuitive…
—————–
And in any case, none of that means playing Russian Roulette was a good idea in the first place, even if you get a click when your turn comes. I mean…didn’t you even see “The Deer Hunter?”
yes I did see the movie and you said Streep should play me remember…I think so too…she is a hoot… but that movie is a classic… how about this: https://youtu.be/fUJmVEB58TQ
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=OuGSXflBoWU
Joy A Collura says
do not be scared of me Gary
I am noone to be scared about—
shit, you are the polar bear
not me
Gary Olson says
Oh never mind. I just researched forty day fasts on the Internet and it looks like there is a variety of opinions and I’m pretty sure something has to be true before it can be put on the Internet so like President Trump used to say, “Who knows, who knows?”
At l east it doesn’t look like your body will consume your heart muscle. So…if you have that much willpower I should celebrate it with you rather than be like RTS and be a party pooper. So…good luck!
Gary Olson says
Nope, I can’t even watch the Deer Hunter scene again.
Joy A Collura says
gary said-if you have that much willpower I should celebrate it with you rather than be like RTS and be a party pooper. So…good luck!
it is not willpower—you want to get better or you don’t…I was not even getting around and I was unsure if it was a rut or Winter hibernation laziness or food intake so I awoke and said reboot it all….and simple as that…why is it we always together pull RTS into our discussions…he is probably fast asleep…remember he is the normal one in this crowd not us…we stay up until late hours.
Joy A Collura says
who is RTS to you Gary?
To me, he is the one to teach the lessons of responsibility, and lessons on associating, how to work for and with others, how to coincide viewpoints, and educate and organize others, and he has his core base and is not swayed…
and he works life through logic and facts…
he is confident.
Helps us here to explore our mental exploration sides and he gives us patience, time and effort.
He is a teacher of the fundamental natural laws.
I feel he is very independent and has a natural urge to initiate activities and is progressive by nature…
he not only has knowledge and understanding but he takes his time out and gives you the chance to absorb it at your own capability to learn the same.
His challenges if any is to understand the other peoples’ viewpoints if they are not balanced to his…
in some sense I feel RTS is responsible for you Gary and for Bob and even non industry me…to ensure we get what needs to be got…so he has a duty…I do believe in that alot.
I have found over the years him to be very generous of his time here on IM and in it he cultivates thoughtfulness by sharing his brilliant mind.
He has been original and resourceful (I know everyone now thinks I am talking about avatar wtktt but I am still on RTS)…
what I find to be stimulating is to see RTS here at IM engaging in group discussions often with Bob Powers right there with him as so many have challenged him but he never swayed..
he may say Gary I agree on this or that or I agree to disagree but overall he knows his shit…
I at times think my self-reliant independent thoughts make him flustered and the fact I dot…dot…dot…drives him mad…
I think he is about new challenges and opportunities…has a active relentless nature…I can see me doing menial tasks not RTS.
I can see him formulating new, more effective ways of doing things. Like my father, I feel if someone was to cause ill intent he would show caustic, irritable expressions but otherwise he really aims to educate not just himself but others…he is the right person to be in the area he is no matter what I heard months ago—“do not believe everything” others try to create— setups in life happen…I have seen it myself.
I strongly believe something going on in his life will flourish in 2019. so to sum one word CEMENT…he is the cement to your industry.
it is budding time for RTS
——————
Now let me cover you Gary 😉
Joy A Collura says
Now Gary— you know before I talk about you I will talk trash on me first—k…even the score up— I have a generous love for humanity and strong desire to be helpful to another. There is many depths that make me ME. I need to learn to develop emotion education (poor there; very unseasoned there) as well as giving more time to develop my intellect because as I know its there I sometimes am not mindful to try…I love being around philosophical older generation intellects vs fun party young folks…I have a deep appreciation for the outdoors and the beauties of nature. I have qualities of ingenuity and originality. My inborn independence and freedom side to me would be a versatile asset to someone needing every 10 days nurturing…and I am very pleased my plane is currently all about SELF expressing vs doing for another…like RTS should feel if he does not… I feel a duty and responsibility to this world to seek truth and ensure it come out…I am a very matter-of-fact person and I accept and get life as each day unfolds…I tend to disregard advice given to me and have no clue why I always been that way but always since a tot…so like I said earlier RTS does not like menial areas from my way of looking I do so I am the germinator ;)…so I am the one to take the time for the tedious stuff most would never ever…I am very sensitive worse than Gary…I am restless and can be creative…and one word to sum me up is MUD…I love mud…where that fits in have no clue but I wear mud about every time I go hiking…Mud acts as a physical barrier between my skin and the sun by blocking the sun’s UV rays. When the mud eventually dries out and cracks off, it leaves behind a residue that also blocks UV rays. The sun’s UV rays are constantly on the prowl for skin to damage. The white powder found on the aspen tree trunks has an SPF of 5…I like to learn the Earth and use it…vs chemical store bought stuff so I am very ancestral like—and I have a pet peeves like leaving lights on…my family leaves lights on growing up and it always bothered me and same with brushing my teeth or showering- I turn water off when brushing or washing…am I brain-washed because that is all self-taught because noone else does it….and I just trying to be picky…oh well…NOW TO GARY—>
——————
Firstly, I think Craig is a kick ass guy and I am sorry…same with the lioness loss…and wishing your family at least one “gets” all you are and have done….you are a polar bear I know that much…Gary, you have a natural gift of self expression…which was to be developed to educate others…you are born to uplift and are for the betterment of humanity…you are to impart the heavy facts people cannot handle may it be philosophical or just the basic truths to life…you have a heart and mind for others…you are made to co-interact and shake the mundane ways to life…you are a natural born counselor…you use the power of language to bring happiness to people’s face even if at times its a “oh my” kind of smile you give the world. Great sense of humor especially in politics…you crack me up…you live to the maxim but you also LIVE TO GIVE…you are the one who can easily earn and learn the trust to just about anyne…so who is the scary one; you. hee hee You have an obligation not a duty to the people— you cannot be around folks like me too long due to the emotional imbalance I can radiate your way—you use better judgement than me 😉
You are free from monotony and limitations—you stretch the limits—you have some scattered efforts and one day Dr Ted Putnam may have a chapter in your book dedicated to him but hell Ted might have a book long before you and he is still on the Mann Gulch stuff…”just saying” You and RTS share the same stuff as I said to RTS would go to you as well…yet you are more of a serious thoughtful shrewd efficient business minded fella in areas RTS would not do what you do….I feel like you make the decisions in all of your life paths and not easy to sway…You and I share the same when it comes to independence and freedom and noone is gonna interfere that…you seem more like a stable settled guy that jokes about xanax and bourbon but maybe the Arizona Republic will do an article as a bourbon hound like they did old Sonny…so you get a world label like ol’ Sonny…I think you are serious in your private spots but the public display is another side…I worry about your head/sinus area; where RTS I worry about his gut areas…and I worry as you age about your eye health…
Joy A Collura says
add-on or correction—
RTS if he sees harm– he is firm to correct you asap and not allow you to go at your pace— he sets you straight on SAFETY…lces…10 & 18…GROUPthink…etc
Gary Olson says
Well…you are right about one thing, Ted will have his own chapter in my book, he has already written it.
It is the story of the Battlement Creek Fire from his perspective. I’m very fortunate to have it.
Gary Olson says
My oldest daughter (who couldn’t keep Una) and my son in law have a German Short Hair Pointer. I dog sat him for a few weeks this summer when they moved and he is a really neat dog and I can tell that would be a good kind of dog to own. He is always hunting wherever he goes and whatever he does, he is always hunting. Una on the other hand was always in a moderate to high alert tactical mode.
And FYI…when Una leapt off that platform, she didn’t have any idea what was out there.
In the dark. She had never seen a raccoon before, all she knew is there were two of them and they were inside our perimeter and she was driven to protect us. For all she knew, there were two Velociraptors out there in the pitch black night.
And she still went because she believed that yea, though she walked through the Valley of the shawdow Of Death, she feared no evil because she thought she was the meanest and bravest one in the Valley.”
Which wasn’t true of course, but we all know if you have faith and believe in yourself, it will always go better than if you don’t. Una was an inspiration to me and a great watch dog. Una lived her entire life in Condition Orange and always positioned herself in a tactical position and was always looking for threats. If there were multiple entrances or approaches to wherever we were, she would choose where she could watch all of them (even if she has to expand her perimeter) at the same time and she would always place herself between me and the rest of the world.
And besides that, she didn’t have to be the baddest, all she had to do was alert me. I have the opposable thumbs and can rack the rounds and reload a bunch of different guns depending on where I am, what I am doing and what the threat level is.
I got tired of this news cycle so I started looking for GIF and memes for my website. And I found a perfect one for you, and a perfect one for me. I will post them later using my other computer.
I have learned my lesson about criticizing your fast, but I’m not sure you will be able to fast long enough to get rid of tumors or even shrink them down? I know this is a stupid question, but have you discussed your plan with a doctor who knows about tumors? Although just in case you are right, how long do you think I will have to fast to get rid of this tumor in my brain?
The following may be a repost, this tablet is a pain in the ass? But my computer sucks even worse.
Ted and I collaborated on the history of the BCF over several months a couple of years ago and he gave me a copy of his final product and permission to use it in my book. And I feel very fortunate to have his perspective on the fire. He was right there in the middle of it all. I was down at the bottom of the bowl that we burned out. I think it was many hundreds of acres? Anyway…it was big and steep.
Gary Olson says
Although for a 20 pound Yorkie mix, two bad ass raccoons are almost as bad. As you know, those things have claws like tactical fighting knives. I mean she had some deep slashes, especially on her underbelly and I didn’t have anywhere near enough money for a vet at 5he time. I just bought a bunch of tubes of antiseptic cream and changed the bandages a lot, but I couldn’t do anything about the puncture wounds but she was up to date on her shots. I did think she was a goner and on her way to Valhalla.
I didn’t have much money because my wife left me for 18 months right after I retired. So I have already had my practice run. Now…I don’t give a fuck. It’s been over forty years, but it seems like it has been much, much, much longer.
Gary Olson says
Oh…and one more thing. That basket I took a photo of Una In wasn’t her bed. That bed belonged to my youngest daughter’s Toy Fox Terrier who was a real little bitch who was always snarling and snapping at Una. But Una had quickly learned she couldn’t fight back so she retaliated by taking naps in that little bitches bed so she couldn’t use it. When Una went to sleep, she always slept in a hallway so she could guard all of the bedrooms at once, or where hallways intersected or a central area so she could watch all points of ingress or egress into the house I’m telling you, she was 20 pounds of tactical energy just waiting to explode. She also changed her position several times a night to confuse and disorient whatever may have been watching her from the shadows to confuse it. I’m telling you, that dog was scary smart. If she would have had opposable thumbs, I would have gotten her her own little gun with a laser sight and a backup tactical knife and then she would have been the biggest bad ass in the Valley Of The shadow of Death.
“Blessed is she, who in the name of charity and good will, shepherds the weak through the valley of darkness, for she is truly her brother’s keeper and the finder of lost children. And she will strike down upon thee with great vengeance and furious anger those who would attempt to poison and destroy her brothers….Badass!” (Pulp Fiction)
Gary Olson says
Oh…and one more thing. Una’s favorite quote she liked me to repeat for her is, “In Your Darkest Hour When The Demons Come Call On Me Brother And We Will Fight Them Together”
Okay, enough about my fuckin’ dog, she is waiting for me in the Great Hall of my people in Valhalla. I just have to try my best to be worthy to join her.
Gary Olson says
Joy,
http://www.ourfiregods.com/reserved1.html
The Bill Murray one is mine. The other two are yours…obviously.
Joy A Collura says
I totally get you there—
I have been a goofball lately huh
even my neighborhood pals and elders noticed—
I guess yoda is me huh
and you right I do have life all backwards and in some odd order yet I just finally fulfilled my bucket list and this Saturday will be my 5th week of the fast—
pretty cool willpower for Yoda indeed
Joy A Collura says
and as for Bill Murray- that is how I feel about my foias and public records—– same pond but HUGE redundant game mess they played me
Joy A Collura says
and you right
correction
YOU ARE RIGHT
Joy A Collura says
How can I fix it Gary?
is it even fixable?
I guess there is a group for these kind of things huh…
Yoda Therapy. Watch this you must.
https://youtu.be/Ck067-D7KvQ
Joy A Collura says
do you think I can one day be a Jedi or will I always be making my way through the dark side of life Gary….
Joy A Collura says
Gary, one thing I know in this aftermath=
there is alot of lies…alot of misleads…
Yet I am human and I live from my heart not what the world expects me to do…not even anywhere near traditional…
I would like to start a tradition and change mine and Sonny’s bucket list to what one felt was a more uplifting phrase and call it a LIFE LIST…so there you have it Gary…the only bad part is on my LIFE LIST I want know list just live the unexpected and spontaneous hours…breathing in good exhaling any toxic left in me….
By the way Gary—how the heck are you doing lately—
What made you think of Yoda today? and to post it here?
I know, bored huh-
I know it was not the Xanax or bourbon…Yoda is pure 😉
here is a bumper sticker idea for you:
https://anewkindofhuman.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/12/803e86052f46b83569a8942c976057b9-zen-art-yoda-quotes.jpg
Joy A Collura says
I want know list just live the
STUPID PC
it changed my NO to KNOW
correction
Gary Olson says
Bored.
Gary Olson says
Thank God for the Trump White House Reality Show. It’s very entertaining, a little scary…but very entertaining.2
Gary Olson says
I said the Bill Murray meme was for ME not YOU. Not everything is all about YOU.
1.. I think Bill Murray is really funny.
2. That is how I feel most days, I don’t have some or any of my ducks in a row, but they are all in the same pond. So..;I do have that going for me.
I’m not even sure what a “meme” is?,
Gary Olson says
Ted and I collaborated on the history of the BCF over several months a couple of years ago and he gave me a copy of his final product and permission to use it in my book.
Gary Olson says
Nope…way to young for me to even admire from a distance. The furthest I will go is the young people doing “Shuffle Dance Steps” to Haddaway’s “What Is Love”, (that I posted for RTS because the girl at the beginning blew him a kiss) which is a timeless song made famous in the classic movie, “Night At the Roxbury”,
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JRVfysTXhNA
Here is my favorite video of dance steps…another timeless classic.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_IvnPB5vLDk&list=RD_IvnPB5vLDk&t=97
Whoops, the Xanax are starting to kick in…gotta go.
Gary Olson says
Okay…time for just one more. One time Una and I were camping out and two raccoons were raiding our camp in the middle of the night. I kept telling her everything was okay and we didn’t care, but before I could grab her, she jumped off the sleeping platform I had in the back of my Jeep and engaged those damn raccoons in a death match.
By the time I scrambled out of the back of the Jeep, they were all locked in mortal combat in the pitch black night. Those raccoons where shrieking like banshees straight outta hell and Una was snarling and howling to boot.
I started kicking where the screams and shrieks were coming from and eventually flew up into the air and landed on top of Una and then the raccoons were able to escape into the night.
Una was cut up pretty bad and she was a bloody mess when I picked her up. I thought I was going to lose her for a few days…but that crazy little bitch eventually pulled through. But she never stopped challenging anything and everything that got in our way and violated whatever perimeter she has set in her mind…man or beast, she was fearless and CRAZY.
Joy A Collura says
classic movie, “Night At the Roxbury”,
Gary, what is truly funny about above is on the Seaside Shore in the early 90s there was guys really like that at the clubs…and I remember this guy who was training to be a FBI agent asked me to go outside get out of the noise and as we walked out my heel broke and one of those kind of guys in that flick begged for my broken heel and I said take the whole pair…they had a freak dance with those heels like in the flick that went on local tv station news…me and Rich cracked up…Rich was good friends with the girl Lisa I went with to the club (we loved to dance)…we walked the boardwalk and went out on the house boat and talked about his ex and at the time I was going to movies with his famous movie critic mom and those messed up guys who had my heels came on the boat and did that freak dance again…now I know WHY Gary I moved to a ghost town in the desert where most just keep dropping like flies around here since the fires away from those freaks….and at Bumper’s – Clifton, (part of a hotel on Rt. 3) NJ (now a Red Robin) and Bloomfield NJ you saw the Greek guys like those 2…it was hilariouuuuussss Gary. You couldn’t make that shit up…well SNL did but it was real stuff happening back then…
Thank you for the bluegrass link…I will show my mom…we use to every year have a family reunion in September in Mississippi and our family got down with the banjos and got ripping…dancing and all…I sure miss dancing…that was the only reason I went to clubs because you knew you can dance for hours on end and that was fun…Gary, do you remember Rockin Rodeo in Tempe or The Mint…Rockbar or Talking Sticks…those were great dance places in the day…Club Tribeca…or how about old school The Devil House or same place later Club Rio…what was the place my brother and I would go dance and hang out at…oh yeah Mill Ave…him and I together on the dance floor…we had people moving…anyone remember Dooley’s? (Apache Boulevard in the 70s/80s) My pops took us kids to the Yucca Tap Room…do you remember that place?
Gary Olson says
Joy, I pray this post finds you…NOT DEAD!
1. I have been on some crazy diets in my life that ultimately proved unsuccessful in the long run, but I am pretty sure you have taken it to the next, and perhaps the final step of Arizona Road Lizard CRAZY!
2. A 40 day fast? No thank you, I can think of a lot of better ways to die, or at least put my life on the line.
3. What comes to mind when you say “heart” at my stage in life? “Attack.”
4. Sonny has the right idea, I always liked the sunsets in New Mexico. I think it had something to do with the wind and red dust of the Navajo Rez between me and the setting sun. I also really liked the way the setting sun played off the snow during the Magic Hour in the Sangre de Christo Mountains above Santa Fe.
maybe I will follow him?
5. It must have been Sonny who said that, although I like it and I will start using it.
6. I did manage to find the right balance between Xanax and bourbon last night so I was able to check in with most of RTS’ echo chamber news sources last night regarding “The Memo” and it’s just as I thought…they are still Texas Road Armadillo CRAZY.
7. No…I didn’t go to any of those places. If I was goofing off in Phoenix it was with some guys from the crew…and we went to dance places, but not those kind.
8. And in case anyone is wondering. and I’m pretty sure you’re not, I never went looking for any dog much less a crazy Yorky mix who thought she wa a lioness trapped in a small dog’s body. I had to really watch out for her because although she had the heart of a lioness, she still had the jaws and teeth of a Yorky. So she was pretty good at starting fights she couldn’t finish. She was a rescue dog from my oldest daughter who couldn’t visit her apartment enough times to take care of her…and then on her way to a new home, she decided she was my dog. I had her for 13 of her 14 years. Bob told me what it would be like to lose her a long time ago…and he was right. She’s actually been gone for several months now., you know…so **** It!
Gary Olson says
Correction, I didn’t “lose her”, I followed Bob’s advice and let her go.
And yes, I like clogging. I just wish I could do it. I wrote a long time ago I liked it ever since I fought fire in North Carolina. And you know…I fought fire from an office so of course it was mandatory that we party like Salamander Huggers and Biches (non gender specific) at night.
Gary Olson says
Whoops…”BITCHES”.
Joy A Collura says
MY REPLY IN BOLD
Joy, I pray this post finds you…NOT DEAD!
Oh ok Gary…I do daily urinalysis and PH tests and it is quite an interesting thing to watch different hours be so perfect and others be like hurry up like really hurry up (the storm of it)….it has its moments the 40 day fast— yet I am very much alive Gary and it is life changing and if my tumor is not dissolved at 40 day mark I am extending it either until tumor is gone and the one is 75% gone and is not a grapefruit size but the size of the old toy silly putty egg container and that gives me hope to keep at it…sometimes it takes longer than 40 days…the only time I missed emotionally eating food was last Sunday when I thought an area was closing (emotion based) and last night was my 1st day of hunger pangs…and I always say do it under medical supervision if you do it…
Sonny is near T&C areas right now…probably in the hot springs…his cousin and him have been enjoying life…I was so pleased to hear he has trailed wherever his trails took him
1. I have been on some crazy diets in my life that ultimately proved unsuccessful in the long run, but I am pretty sure you have taken it to the next, and perhaps the final step of Arizona Road Lizard CRAZY!
I wish it was a diet but it is not…it is to bring the final clearing before the truth is presented Gary…a 40 day fast should reflect as a reboot to the system…if it was for diet reasons I would of gave up already because the weight does not drain off on the fast like one would think because it is working too much on alkalizing the body and removing the tumors and t cells.
2. A 40 day fast? No thank you, I can think of a lot of better ways to die, or at least put my life on the line.
it actually helps your life if you do it proper
3. What comes to mind when you say “heart” at my stage in life? “Attack.” you and Sonny both
4. Sonny has the right idea, I always liked the sunsets in New Mexico. I think it had something to do with the wind and red dust of the Navajo Rez between me and the setting sun. I also really liked the way the setting sun played off the snow during the Magic Hour in the Sangre de Christo Mountains above Santa Fe.
maybe I will follow him? he would enjoy that…he tends to like Grants NM for nostalgia so maybe you can meet at the junkyard bar in Grants…
5. It must have been Sonny who said that, although I like it and I will start using it. it does sound like Sonny
6. I did manage to find the right balance between Xanax and bourbon last night so I was able to check in with most of RTS’ echo chamber news sources last night regarding “The Memo” and it’s just as I thought…they are still Texas Road Armadillo CRAZY. I think alot of the media is fluff and you have to answer me this Gary for the bleachers…what are you going to do when the power grid is down?
7. No…I didn’t go to any of those places. If I was goofing off in Phoenix it was with some guys from the crew…and we went to dance places, but not those kind. oh my than you probably saw my giant dad there
8. And in case anyone is wondering. and I’m pretty sure you’re not, I never went looking for any dog much less a crazy Yorky mix who thought she wa a lioness trapped in a small dog’s body. I had to really watch out for her because although she had the heart of a lioness, she still had the jaws and teeth of a Yorky. So she was pretty good at starting fights she couldn’t finish. She was a rescue dog from my oldest daughter who couldn’t visit her apartment enough times to take care of her…and then on her way to a new home, she decided she was my dog. I had her for 13 of her 14 years. Bob told me what it would be like to lose her a long time ago…and he was right. She’s actually been gone for several months now., you know…so **** It!
same here Gary- every pet here was once at Sonny’s place…I never thought I would have a tiny dog myself…I am a hunting type dog like a german pointer dog and if I ever got one it has to be a pure breed w/ papers with certain pattern like this pup:
https://gfp-2a3tnpzj.stackpathdns.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/07/German-Shorthaired-Pointer-Puppies-For-Sale-600×600.jpg and some day I will get one…my grandpa had one and I always wanted one…I see me as an old lady owning one later down the road…
Gary Olson says
Oh…and one more thing. I wasn’t the only one who noticed how the red sunsets were reflected off the snow in the Sangre de Christo Mountains above the City of Holy Faith during the Magic Hour because that is why the Spanish Conquistadors named them the Blood of Christ Mountains in the first place.
Gary Olson says
And thinking about hiking for long distances in rugged and steep terrain in the backcountry with a Special Operations Team was like being with a hotshot crew on a fire except the tools we carried were different and the overall objectives were different made me think of a photo.
And you know me, when I can post one of my photos to illustrate a point…I like to do it. So I posted my favorite “hero” photo of me in the type of helicopter I had an unnatural attraction to…a Vietnam Era Bell Iroquois “Huey.” I love those helicopters and those of you who flew in them or 206’s and especially the Bell 212’s and 214″s know that familiar and distinctive sound of their rotors beating the air into submission, “Wop .wop .wop wop.”
I spent the first half of my LE career in Huey’s and the second half in Sikorsky UH-60 Black Hawks, but I never fell in love with the UH-60 helicopter like I did with the Huey’s. They aren’t proportioned right…know what I mean, their tails are to damn long? I guess they have to be for aerodynamic reasons, but they are ugly?
But forgive me, I digressed. So check out the photo and you will see at my feet the very same green North Face tear drop day pack I carried for years as a hotshot that I liberated from the USFS and pressed into service on behalf of the BLM.
And to keep things equal, I posted one of my favorite “hero” photos of me with a wildfire. It was pretty hot where I was standing, but you can see the wind pushing the flames with dark smoke parallel to where we were cutting hotline.
I don’t know why young men like to take hero photos with fire (except for RTS, he isn’t full of himself), maybe it’s like counting coup and smacking your enemy with physical contact without engaging it in actual combat?
That’s why I now think all hotshot crew bosses should be women. I have never met the woman who I would recommend as First Pulaski (I’m not saying they don’t exist, I’m just saying I haven’t met her…yet), but I have met a lot of women who would make good hotshot crew bosses. Partly because you can count on them to never yell, “HEY…WATCH THIS!”
And I posted another photo of my best Jeeping buddy because I could. She (Una) was tired after a tough day of Jeeping with me in the backcountry. I mean…how cute was she? Una didn’t have any idea she was cute, she thought she was a lioness trapped in a Yorky mix’s body on steroids.
http://ourfiregods.com/reserved1.html
Bob Powers says
Yes Had one in my hard hat still have the hard hat meatal with the sticker in it.
Gary Olson says
Me too, short brim Bullard. Were you a round brim Bullard or short brim man? I know RTS was a round brim Bullard man because they standardized theirs the way I remember it. I gave everyone a choice because I promoted and valued the expression of individualism whenever and wherever possible.
That sawyer we had was lucky he was a round brim Bullard man or he might have cut his throat, and it was a night shift wayyyy up in the mountains. He wasn’t medevacced until the next day because as you know our slicks weren’t flown at night.
The old Flagstaff crew boss (Mark Zumwalt, I bet RTS knew him) at about that time did cut his throat limbing a tree on project work, but he got control of it in the nick (no pun intended) of time.
Gary Olson says
I doubt they let anybody wear those old aluminum Bullard anymore because of lightning…maybe? But I bet the old timers fought hard to keep them. They were a lot lighter for one thing, but of course style and status. were the biggest reasons.
Our standard issue were the new plastic Bullards after about 1979; but guys were always watching for the metal ones at flea markets and garage sales and quite a few of them had them.
Bob Powers says
It was the short one. Had it till around 1990 when the full switch to Plastic happened. Never knew or herd of any one getting hit by lighting that wore one. We were seldom around power lines back then either..
Robert the Second says
Gary,
Nice faux pax. This statement smacks of utilizing a Participatory Leadership style.
“I gave everyone a choice because I promoted and valued the expression of individualism whenever and wherever possible.”
Gary Olson says
Ahhhhhhhh dagnabit, you caught me! Damn…you ARE smart!
Robert the Second says
Gary,
Regarding Fire Order Number 10 – Fight fire aggressively having provided for safety first. you posted: “… if you always followed that ONE order, that was the only one you needed….right?”
“I mean…it kind of sums up the other 9 plus all of the other safety advisories, guidelines, suggestions, standard operating procedures, general orders, policies, directives and recommendations…right?”
Yes it does sum up the other 9 orders, however, you have to already know those Fire Orders and apply them. So then, I agree with you in part and disagree in part, with both you and the Woodsman that we can get away with only one.
Gary Olson says
And yes of course I agree with you, all of them must be known and applied, or you will end up dead. I was just taking it to the extreme to illustrate the point that technically, if you always provide for safety first in every situation, you will have it covered. I have never disagreed or challenged the Ten, I didn’t even use the challenge or ever question the Thirteen. I only started rolling my eyes when they took those to Eighteen and now it’s way beyond that. I am just trying to say that I really think Paul Gleason was on to something.
Bob Powers says
Making # 10 #1 was for a reason to me although in reverse of the safety first being a reminder at 10. As #1 it would have set the stage for the 9 safety directions that followed.
No one that I ever knew ever believed that we could NOT fight Fire Aggressively and still provide for Safety. As Wild Land Fire Fighters we always attacked the Fire Aggressively and provided for Safety First..
Robert the Second says
Bringing this up out of the weeds as they say.
This is a VIMEO video from a contract Engine Crew on the 2012 Holloway Fire in Nevada and southern Oregon. It is subtitled: “… we saved the Granite Mt. Hotshot buggies from burning up!” by Oregon WF Colby Drake – the video was later removed from VIMEO site. and you cannot find this video clip anywhere else.
The GMHS engaged in Bad Decisions with Good Outcomes THREE TIMES on the Holloway Fire (2012) in Nevada; what they referred to as the “Nevada Fire” during their PFD ‘public record’ Squad Boss interview when the candidates were asked to give an example of ‘good leadership’ on a fire.
On two separate occasions, they posted no lookout(s) and the fire basically snuck up on them and they then had to fire out around themselves and their Buggies. They downplayed it by saying “… everything turned out alright.”
Another time on the same 2012 Holloway Fire, they were fortunate to have a contract Engine Crew save their Buggies because they parked them in the unburned and left nobody behind.
Go to (2:40-3:25), TURN OFF THE VOLUME in order to concentrate on what is occurring. Watch as the Engine Crew (one wearing a helmet cam) videos as the nozzelman squirts water on the flaming grass and sage brush, Then you see the GMHS Buggies come into view and notice the fire has jumped their road and/or dozer control line, with flames within about 20 feet of one of the Buggies.
As the nozzleman moves back to the left, concentrate on the upper left part of the screen and you will notice a handline adjacent to the black. Then begin to freeze-frame through the images and you will notice a GMHS with a black hardhat running downhill, down the handline in the upper left screen.
This is best visible when the nozzleman’s hardhat aligns with the handline in the upper left of the screen.
http://vimeo.com/48411010
The FIRST time someone else ‘saved’ the GMHS Buggies was on the 2012 Sunflower Fire (TNF) when they had parked their Buggies on the road above an unburned bowl of chapparal that was heating up. A HS Supt warned the GMHS and offered to move them, however, Marsh declined the offer.
McDonough later admitted in one of his interviews that “they took a little heat.” This was also reflected in the GMHS Crew video as they drove past flames coming up from below the road. I was unable to locate this video on YouTube any longer.
The SECOND time someone else ‘saved’ the GMHS Buggies from burning was on the 2012 Holloway Fire depicted in the VIMEO video clip above.
The THIRD time was when the BRHS ‘saved’ them on the YH Fire the morning of June 30, 2013.
In addition, the Holloway Fire was where the Zuni HS Crew filler deployed her fire shelter because she was getting overrun by the fire when she got separated from her Crew. The Holloway Fire SAIR is on the Wildland Fire LLC and has been posted on IM in the past.
The similarities of fuels, weather, topography, fire behavior, and HUMAN FACTORS closely mirror what took place on the YH Fire, which includes them having to fire out around themselves because of no lookout, the contract Engine Crew ‘saving’ their Buggies, and the ZUNI HS fire shelter deployment.
Methods says
The video is up and working and available.
Robert the Second says
On VIMEO?
Methods says
Yes, I haven’t done anything to remove it or take it down. It has always been available. Might be a browser issue if it won’t play correctly.
Robert the Second says
I said VIMEO, not you, took it down and it cannot be found there.
Joy A Collura says
firstly, great to see you Methods-
Been since September-
Hope all is well…
is this the old link?
http://www.investigativemedia.com/please-begin-yarnell-hill-fire-chapter-xxv-here/#comment-472591
charlie says
Wow. I didn’t know that 10 died in the last month. That area is contaminated and shouldn’t have been open for hiking. Trouble is we didn’t know all this until time elapsed. Had we known we certainly wouldn’t have like that area after the dumps.
Maybe people can start realizing how dangerous to health those retardant dumps are
The human body is very resilient. You know that looking back I have been through so many different injuries and even illness that would tax the survival-ability of just about anyone. But as time goes on our immune defenses and organs become compromised. You know from my uranium mining I have had well beyond 20 cancers removed from my body including tumors of melanoma and carcinoma period fact I’ve lost track of how many there are. Of course working Underground you breathe plenty of dust, diesel smoking a lot of those mines especially Union Carbide at the church Rock Mine, Dynamite explosion fumes also loaded with ammonia, the many heart attacks I’ve had, and yet my brain works enough to keep me going. The point is that the older we get the more compromise we are from the many things that may have happened to us and the many pollution we are exposed to
Yesterday is dead and gone, tomorrow is but a dream, today is all I have.
Life Goes On and we have to make the best of it today. I’m not finish just yet, but sometimes I feel like I am. Take heart, there’s one thing certain, things will change.
Happy trails. I count myself more the fortunate 4 knowing you, Joy. You make me smile and laugh. I guess I’m too simple. My advice on divorce is don’t do it. and why do it. Yet you are always welcome back on the trails with me. Gary would agree, you should be raising hell with old Sonny here. I need someone to work the wood burning stove. You can chop and load wood. Bad hernia here. Dogs aren’t much good for that. You are the finest person I have ever met or will know. Nobody can know how special you are as much as me. I mean what man in the world not even your husband can say he saw you in an extreme snow blizzard in the freezing cold in my outdoor shower with freezing water. You are some kind of Eskimo. (or) in the freezing blizzard chopping up wood and stacking it up the entire day until dark as I drank my Guinness or my snow cone whiskey bowls. My dad said the french men did that kind of thing. Make the woman work while the men watched and drank beers. My dad use to call certain ladies “40” as him and his pal buy a bucket of beer when they passed 2 stories buildings the ladies would peak their head out and say .40 cents today; 80 cents tomorrow. They were prostitutes. Times sure have increased. Beer was a nickel a bucket in the Chicago area and the ladies only cost 40 today 80 cents tomorrow. what a bargain. You are really just like one of the guys in alot of ways but definitely one of a kind. May the Irish Gods keep you well, prosper, and just know we all here care about you.
Too many of them are brainwashed into believing what the big money corporations want them to believe. Get that retardant killer away from our populations. Certainly there are a few so-called Elite individuals who believe it is okay to kill off the elderly, with the exception of themselves when they are elderly. In fact the elderly are a precious commodity to this world. They are bastions of experience and knowledge to pass along to those younger folks. That is just proven by reading the post on investigative media where the older retired bosses share their knowledge and wisdom with the younger men in their profession. Gary, RTS, Bob, Rocksteady and Norb. Hope you are doing good.
Good Lord Joy that is just too damn many people to die in that short of time. You can see that both you and I have suffered from the retardant. Me more than you I think because I’m older but you have gotten some bad effects from it as well. It’s amazing how people have skirted the issue.
I think the other thing beyond the death of the 19 firemen are the deaths of over a hundred and twenty of the elderly in the Yarnell area. Seems that people turn their heads when you mentioned that the more than 500,000 gallons of retardant dumps surrounding Yarnell and even on top of some residences watch the main contributing factor to those deaths. Anyone that wants to Google the retardant will find that it emits a deadly gas. When tank cars will that ammonia gas break open whole communities have been evacuated. It is highly poisonous and a killer to the lungs which never regenerate. Most elderly people are already compromised in their lungs. Not only that, ammonium nitrate and phosphate when applied to a fire or and burning Embers produces cyanide. Of course cyanide gas was wants you to kill prisoners. And the old way to make cyanide was to apply this ammonium phosphate and nitrate 2 charcoal Embers to make cyanide. They got a different method these days but the old one work very well and the cyanide is used to release gold from sulfide ores. So you see the forest service and the powers-that-be as well as the Israeli companies that make billions of dollars out of selling you the 95% ammonium nitrate sand phosphates that are dumped on you are not about to tell you the truth of how poisonous and dangerous their concoction is. Fortunately these days the internet has educated many people who are interested to be informed of the truth. The truth is sometimes hard to find but it is there if you can wade through the lies.
Dumping of retardant should be labeled the killing of the elderly. This is Germany all over during the Third Reich. Get rid of those that have low-iq and those that are ill at physical labor and the j e w and any of those that do not accept the f u e r e r ideas and commands. You and I would have been top on the list to add to the death list. Pointing out the death of the elderly would have been against his will
retardant is killing lots of people but it’s being kept Under Wraps kind of like the truth of the 19 deaths. Yes a dirty bomb would have been safer then the retardant dumps they made. Either way Yarnell should have been evacuated for quite a long time until the effects of the retardant we’re totally washed away. It is a fine thing to draw attention to that retardant problem. Despite the obvious deaths of people in the aftermath of those retardant dumps people are looking the other way as if these deaths never happened.
You see most of those firemen do not believe that retardant is at all dangerous. It kind of reminds me of the uranium mining where they had us brainwashed that low-grade uranium was not dangerous at all. Fact of the matter is one molecule of plutonium is all that is needed to start a cancer and there’s a certain amount of plutonium amongst the pitchblende uranium radiation. Always you will find that when big money is involved, the corporations operate without conscience.
Yes it would have been wise for and the whole town to be evacuated much like an area of radiation. I think the death toll is even higher than if Yarnell had been struck by radiation. Radiation is a slow killer if you get past the original blast where as this retardant has been Swift to kill its victims.
The Irish and leprechaun green. That guy is set up for St Patrick’s Day. And Ireland it be called The Emerald i s l e. Emeralds are beautiful Stone mostly come from Brazil. An emerald stone can approach the prices of diamond and to me it’s a more beautiful g e m. I bought another one of those recorders like the one I gave you Joy. But it’s a complicated I couldn’t record like I wanted to On My Guitar so went down and bought one of those cheap type that you put a cassette in and that damn thing sounds garble so I got to take it back to Walmart. That is unlike you to hear the news of your divorce. Must be something because your animals are your world. Your husband is what did you call him “Your Rock”
I would have to calculate this as a rare moment of emotions. Is it your health? your fast? May the Irish Gods keep you well.
The comments lately on IM are more of a personal discussion among friends and cohorts and people involved in the fire industry. I can imagine couple of old ladies who follow here have probably quit posting after recent times. Wives appalled.
Those kind of discussions are fine among friends privately but I didn’t see that the content is going to benefit the promotion of finding out the truth about the death of 19 young firefighters. It is True the tragedy always brings forth some levity. You see people at funerals laughing.
All things being said the truth is hidden because of politics. Someone up top decided it would be better to hide the truth than exposed those people whose reputation would be ruined. Someone wants to make wildland firefighter bosses look clean. But there was a lot of dirty work there in killing those men. So someone’s covering their own ass as well as comrades asses. Marsh & steed carry a heavy burden when they killed those men under them. But the public was done no justice by being fed a lie and young Wildland firefighters who risked their lives daily in the land of fire fighting are shorted.*
charlie says
Hope you are doing good, Wants To Know The Truth.
I speak in my phone.
So forgive the punctuation and English errors.
Some of the school teachers that watch this they’re going to grit their teeth.
Where is Ms. Lomas by the way?
Joy A Collura says
Thu, Jan 25, 2018 at 5:56 PM Gary is right. he gives terrible advice. 😉 My husband thought I was joking when I brought it up like I saw it on Candid Camera episode or something. ??? I was just trying to do right…if Gary can…why not me…I am about the same time in as Gary…I liked his reason so I ran with it…it did not even reach first base on believable at Date: Jan 25, 2018 12:08 PM….what kind of skills you got to pull that off—let me know back channel…I get laughed at…Well, Sonny is right. Probably because he heard it over and over for over six years…my husband is my best buddy…it confuses many over time…but early on I married my best friend…literally…I am not looking for trouble nor wanting trouble to find me…however this week was an odd week that I had know clue how to vlog that…but I can tell you this get well Paul My brother has his brain tumors in same areas as me and he got knocked real bad with pneumonia and I am less than 24 hours from me being at my 2 weeks of fasting of a 40 days fast…nice…I have had about over 30 hours of rough moments overall I think doing good; thumbs up. One guy fasted for 385 days and he went from 400 to 180— cool! I was going to sleep but I had to email my list to hubby so since on I finally am replying and YES Sonny just recently the rancher who had that burn barrel she died in December and Monday night Bob died over here and the book store owner and our friend Kathleen died of cancer….ALL cancers…and many NEVER had anything wrong with them before YHF…the numbers keep growing and the towns keep getting smaller. It is messed up. Sonny, I have had a research team assigned awhile back on this and they did state you were on to something when your neighbor in Yarnell died. There should be a true investigation. I sure miss going to all your old mines and it is by far the most unique situation and you cannot make this shit up…who goes west of the Grand Canyon with an old miner and journey off from the cookie cutter world…remember the opal mine…you sure know your stuff…no doubt…I never met a person who tells you drop your back pack and gear and just go out with yourself and “live”…and you took Earth and grass and what else? and you made us dishes and utensils out of earth clay than you taught me where water is and you taught so many ways to properly make a campfire with nothing…you taught me I can do it with a smile and sleep under the moonlit stars with all those different wildlife…I remember those little men with guns and you said take a photo and I ran across those pics and the Vernon one too…I liked the part where you stated YOU ARE FORTUNATE TO KNOW ME…I had to hidden chuckle on that…there is not 1 person on this site I can see doing that or 6 years like you showed me…In your honor in recent times to warm my body on a cold night I did have a pretty decent glass of Tullamore Dew on my fast to keep me warm…and to settle my tummy…I am still part Eskimo but not chopping wood lately or taking freezing showers where that plane took that photo and put it up in the local hardware store DO IT BEST in Dolan Springs of me taking a shower (the skies have eyes)…if anything I really want to let you know how your brother is so remind me to do that…I am like one of the guys when you think about it…I am the longest lasting female on IM 😉 probably because the others came to their senses…where are you Diane? Maybe Sonny is right…maybe our side smack got her to wash her hands of IM…or maybe she is just enjoying life like Bob Powers and Norb (you still coming out Norb?) and Otis with periodic stop bys…we