Comments

  1. Sonny Gilligan says

    Joy and I attended the rearranged fence showing: by invitation only and I believe it is to be closed now to the general public. Ered Matthews produced the play called “The Fence”: and Katy Cornelius, who was in charge of re arranging the artifacts from the fence have done an excellent job of honoring those men, The pieces of the original fence are about 4×7 feet and now arranged by three in a triangle so that you can walk around them. On each piece of fence is a photo of a GMHS with commentary and a brief history of their personal life. There are two large rooms of mementos and gifts left that honor the men.

    It was good to see the Mayor of Prescott, Marlin Kuykendall there to honor the men as well. He wants to hike with us the route the men took, which in distance is coincidentally comparable to the route he takes yearly at the White Sands Proving Ground near Alamogordo, NM. He tells me that one is 15+ miles long and over 5000 people hike it each year, mostly veterans, to commemorate the Bataan Death March. We certainly will hike the Mayor and perhaps Dr. Ted Putnam. I personally enjoy the hikes where Ted comes along since he has the expertise from 11 years of smoke jumping to understand what actions firefighters take and the whys, wheres, and whens of firefighting actions

    Joy has come up with more photos she has talked out of people here. One has a blue ridge helmet in it and the other shows two clear smoke columns. These are time stamped photos and will add to the understanding of events for that day. Ted is looking at the photos now and seeing their significance concerning the fire. She of course will share those photos with you and I think has to some already. .

    I am told that there are already some undercurrents to settling the suits out of court. I think it is inevitable considering the weight of evidence against the state. et. al, . When that happens much will never come to light except that which John Daugherty and others looking at this will let be known.

    In studying books on past fires such as those put out by John McClain, I have come to a conclusion that the old crony system is still at work. Seems that there is more concern for saving a crony’s job than there is for the safety of the lives of future firemen. I haven’t heard of even one boss being fired in this instance, yet we did hear that one Osha boss was transferred to a different position. I thought they would have started with the guy that told the Congress and Yarnell to stand down on the first day that lightening struck–especially considering the extreme fire alert we were on in the Yarnell area. Large signs posted at each end of the town warned of this danger and fires had to be put out immediately under the conditions of drought we were in. Shame on the bosses of bosses that ran this show–and as far as I can see–only cronyism, nepotism or plain stupidity would prevent a cleaning of house in this tragedy. Some ought to step down on their own in good conscience, but I suppose 19 deaths and a bumbled event hasn’t prodded them well enough yet Time may take care of that as more evidence appears.

    Thanks for all you do. I never really got closure on the death of my 29 year old son who was dear to my heart. His mom refused to let him learn mining with me–she said it was too dangerous–so he took up underwater welding. His death came in August of 99 after a tragic accident some years before left him without the use of his right arm. I have always believed he was murdered, but then I never got closure on that case. I got every detail I could but never really could get the information that I needed. These loved ones of the firemen who died deserve every piece of evidence they can get if they want it. I am told that some do not want it, and that too is their right. They can just keep their eyes closed and let those who want to know all the facts do exactly that. Joy and I will continue to reveal all we can find out–part of it is in honor of my son Ted, whom I will always consider a hero along with those who perished that terrible day of June 30, 2013..

    • Joy A Collura says

      reply to “Joy has come up with more photos she has talked out of people here.”

      I posted on bulletin flyers…I did not talk anyone out of their photos. We were at the legion. Sonny talked about the fire and then KHG stated she usually does not have her laptop on her but she did that day and she has a massive file of fire photos from Friday thru Sunday but scattered and not easily to view as she has private mixed with fire and just could not search pulling up the date so it is a chore but I did grab a few with a Blue Ridge helmet firefighter and the smoke stacks from Glen Ilah, near the Helms and Peeples Valley view.

      I doubt Dr Ted Putnam will be joining the hike with the mayor-

      The statement on court stuff—there has been so many discussions on that area but I hope it goes to court…my hope…

  2. WantsToKnowTheTruth says

    **
    ** ANNIVERSARY 1 – NEW INFORMATION COMES OUT – PART 3

    This one doesn’t actually qualify as ‘new information’ coming out, but it was still and interesting ‘piece’ that got air-time DURING the coverage of the anniversary events from the Prescott Court House.

    It contains an on-camera interview with Elizabeth Nowicki.

    WMBF NEWS ( YARNELL, CBS5 )
    Article: State keeping Yarnell Hill Fire secrets, say critics
    Posted: Jun 30, 2014 7:13 PM CDT
    Updated: Jul 01, 2014 9:34 AM CDT
    By Morgan Loew

    http://www.wmbfnews.com/story/25909911/state-keeping-yarnell-hill-fire-secrets-say-critics

    The written part of the article does a poor job of reporting what was actually said in the real VIDEO interview(s)… so here is a ‘transcript’ of just the actual VIDEO that accompanies the article…

    TRANSCRIPT OF VIDEO PART
    ————————————————–

    The video was introduced by CBS5 anchorman Sean McLaughlin who was sitting with co-anchor Catherine Anaya in the Prescott Courthouse Square and covering the actual first anniversary events at that location.

    Sean McLaughlin: And a growing number of critics are now saying that part of the blame goes on the investigators themselves. Investigative reporter Morgan Loew joins us live back at the studio in Phoenix with that part of our story tonight. Morgan?….

    Morgan Loew: Sean and Catherine… when the State Forestry division released its investigation it met with some harsh criticism for glossing over some of the biggest questions.

    ( Audio clip is played of a female dispatcher saying “There are confirmed 19 fatalities.” )

    Morgan Loew: The immediate question after any tragedy is… what went wrong?
    The report released by the Forestry Division left that question largely unanswered.

    ( Video cuts to an on-camera interview with Scott McKee, Grant McKee’s father )…

    Scott McKee: There’s a lot of things that have been withheld… and lied about… and… ( He shakes his finger at the camera and adds… ) you cannot lie to somebody about how their child died.

    Morgan Loew: Scott McKee’s son Grant was one of the Granite Mountain Hotshots. He and others refer to the State’s report as ‘a whitewash’. It blamed communications problems but did not hold anyone accountable.

    One year after the tragedy and the number of people accusing the State of ‘keeping secrets’ is growing.

    ( Video cuts to an on-camera interview with Elizabeth Nowicki )…

    Morgan Loew: How open has this investigation been, in your experience?

    Elizabeth Nowicki: The investigation hasn’t been particularly open at all.

    Morgan Loew ( narrating ): Elizabeth Nowicki is a law professor who has tried for months to get access to the investigative records that were not included in the State’s report.

    EN: The investigation team members, for example, uhm… withheld their notes from uhm… their interviews of key players on the Yarnell Hill Fire.

    Morgan Loew ( narrating ): Some of those interview notes allegedly taken during interviews with the Blue Ridge Hotshots working nearest the firefighters who died and among the last to speak to them on the radio. Investigators were also not allowed to interview everyone they wanted to.

    Morgan Loew: Why is it important that all of the records that SHOULD be released ARE released… in an investigation like this?

    Elizabeth Nowicki: What I have seen is that the withholding of information, the ‘circling… uhm… of the wagons’, can be incredibly damaging. It’s not the right thing to do. It’s not the way to move on. It’s not the way to make the fireline safer.

    Morgan Loew: Nowicki says in her experience that two of the side-effects of secrecy in an investigation are lawsuits and conspiracy theories.

    Last week we saw the first lawsuit arise from neighboring landowners against the State… and there are lots and lots of conspiracy theories making rounds on the Internet about what really happened on the mountain that day.

    Sean and Catherine ( back to you )…

    ————————————————–

    It’s nice to see even this kind of ‘acknowledgement’ on the part of the MSM of the immense problems that are now ‘common knowledge’ regarding the poor handling of the YHF investigation(s)…

    …but all-in-all it’s still really a piss-poor piece of reporting in that despite its title… it doesn’t even get into WHAT information might be being ‘kept secret’ other than some quick comment on Nowicki’s part about about the Blue Ridge interview notes being ‘withheld’.

    It is, essentially, just its own brand of ‘conspiracy theory’ reporting because all it does is say there are ‘secrets being kept’… but doesn’t explore the topic in any realistic way.

  3. Marti Reed says

    So the major thing I’ve been working on is a number of IMHO important Vehicle Timelines. And here’s what I have so far.

    RHR tag indicates visibility in photos/videos of RHR parking lot after deployment.

    Air2Air STARTS

    1510: 2:48:31 (ends 3:10)
    1544: 3:16:14 (ends 3:44)
    1628: 3:47:58 (i.e.3:48) (ends 4:28)
    1643: 4:30:50 (i.e. 4:31) (ends 4:43)
    1716: 4:45:19 (ends 5:16)

    SEEN BY AIR2AIR camera:

    Red Dbl-cab Wickenberg:
    1544+8:30 = 3:24:30 east/out
    1544+27:27 = 3:43 west/in goes back into Model Creek area. Right about when Musser was supposedly with Gary Cordes and contacting Granite Mountain about commitment to the ridge.
    1628+1752 = 4:06 east/out of Model Creek.
    4:30 Minimart v/Rick Thams
    RHR: RickTams-4:51, TomGarrigan-4:56 (? Rebel T3), ReasonVid, Story 5:07, Swartz-6:37, 6:38 and 6:44.
    (Paul Musser?)

    State Fire Panels: 1544+1 = 3:17 east and 1544+10:44 = 3:27 west
    (ICP and Blues videos)

    White Truck Pulling Big UTV: 1544+5:38 = 3:21:38 west (related to Bea Day?)

    Blue Truck: 1628+3:22 = 3:51 east
    RHR: Story 5:12:26
    (Has to be Rance Marquez but makes almost nada sense to me.)
    If Rance is telling the truth in his interview about post-deployment, his truck has to be heading east somewhere in the same video same time-frame as Darrell Willis — 1716 + 10 = 4:55, since his truck is in Story’s first pano at 5:12:26, four minutes after Willis appears. If he’s four minutes behind Willis, which fits his narrative, he would pass at 1716+14 = 4:59. And that video runs til 5:16. But there’s no blue Rance truck in that video.

    Also, if he’s telling the truth, Cougan’s truck would have to be there/then too, but that wouldn’t work. Cougan’s probably-just-pulled-in truck is in the Reason video, around 4:45-4:55, so Cougan would have had to have passed the video camera about 4:30 the same time as Coles (1643+1:25 = 4:31:20), the Black Ram (1643+2:47 = 4:34), and the BLM Engine and it’s accompanying white pickup (1716+:6 = 4:46). I suppose he could have passed the video before it started. But none of this timeline fits Rance’s story.

    I have seen neither of these trucks in either of these required times in the Air2Air video.

    StateFire: 1628+6 = 3:54 east
    RHR: Rich Tham 4:51, thru Tom Story
    (who??)
    (another with a rack passes west at 1628+35:39 = 4:24)
    (my last comment about this on June 16 was that I was beginning to think this might be Byron’s truck. That doesn’t match his story, tho. but parts of his story don’t make sense anyway).

    Prescott FD SUV: 1510 = 2:48:31 west and 1628+9:42 = 3:58 east
    RHR Story 1692 5:12:26 (I just id’d that, it’s the truck on the far left edge of Story’s panos).
    (Tony Sciacca)

    PrescottThreeTeam: (from PB 1616VLAT split)
    ClawsonTowingATV: + 8 sec = 4:13
    HulburgTowingATV: +11 sec
    Yowell: + 19 sec

    BLM Dan Philbin: 1628+36 = 4:14
    RHR Story 5:08, Swartz 6:44.

    StateFire IncidentManageTeam: 1628+40 = 4:28 east
    RHR Story 5:06
    (who??)

    White Tacoma “Fire”: 1643+1:25 = 4:31:20 east
    RHR: Rick Thams 4:51, Reason Video, Story 5:06.
    (Marty Cole)

    Black Ram Match: 1643+2:47 = 4:34 east
    RHR: Swartz 6:38:10 and 6:44:21
    (who??)

    WhiteTruck BLM Engine Companion 1716+:6 = 4:46 east
    BLM Engine: 1716+ :11 = 4:46 east
    I just realized if the BLM crew passed the camera at 4:46 they maybe couldn’t have made it to the 89/RHR any earlier than (if it took Willis 12:27 to do it abt the same time at about 23 mph) than 4:58. So Reason video might be about 4:56-4:58. They could have maybe done it faster than Darrell, but not by a lot, judging by the traffic.

    Prescott FD NoLightsOnTop: 1716+10 = 4:55 east
    RHR: Story 5:08 Swartz
    (Darrell Willis)
    So according to WTK on June 8, the time between Willis passing the cam and pulling up to the RHR (at 5:08) is 12:27. At avg 23 mph.

    Grey Dbl-cab “Fire”: 1716+25 = 5:10 east
    RHR: Swartz 6:44
    (Todd Abel)

    PS Also, regarding Musser. Calvin’s comment, that Musser was that that tall thin guy in the MiniMart photo made me chuckle. I hadn’t even thought of him as being tall, given how short the guy is that we think is Musser in the Story photos of prepping the Blue Ridge UTV.

    However, in the USFS photo IMG_0605, the overhead shot of the procession, the red Wickenberg truck is there, and so is a tall thin guy holding a white cowboy hat.

    • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

      Wow.. a LOT of GOOD ’roundup’ work there… Marti. Thank you.
      I’m reading / re-reading it all but it all looks pretty accurate to me.

      I know a lot of people don’t understand this focus on the vehicles, their owners,
      and their exact locations/whereabouts at various times… but there have been
      any number of times now where this exact information has led to OTHER
      discoveries with regards to how ACCURATE the ‘testimony’ is… and who
      is ( or is NOT ) giving good testimony about their activities that day.

      More later.

      • Marti Reed says

        I agree and thank you.

        The narrative of all of what happened via/out of that Ranch House Restaurant Parking Lot has never been written and I believe it’s extremely important.

        And I’m seriously troubled by the fact that Rance Marquez’ narrative, which he so carefully put together for the ADOSH interview, isn’t supported by the visual evidence. Maybe that’s just “the fog of war.” But it’s just not “making science” to me.

        • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

          Reply to Marti Reed post on July 2, 2014 at 9:36 pm

          >> Marti said…
          >> The narrative of all of what happened via/out of that Ranch House
          >> Restaurant Parking Lot has never been written and I believe it’s
          >> extremely important.

          Agree.

          By the way… I just finished re-reading Tyson Esquibel’s entire ADOSH interview to see if there really was any place in there where he describes
          the ‘near death’ experience we are only now hearing about from the
          Peeples Valley crew that was under his command ( there is, actually, NOTHING from Esquibel in his interviews to support the recent testimony from these Peeples Valley fireman )… and I found something I hadn’t seen before with regards to that pickup in the Tom Story photos that had all the EMT boards in the back of it.

          That MIGHT be Esquibel’s truck.

          He says the first ‘plan’ was to (quote)
          “…get all the ALS gear into the pickup that I was in.”

          SIDENOTE: ALS stands for “Advanced Life Support”.

          Page 62 of his ADOSH transcript is where they started asking
          him about what he was doing after the deployment.

          ———————————————————————————
          Q: Okay. So we hear about a deployment, and then does Gary Cordes give you some specific directions as to what he wants you to do?
          A: Uh, right after we heard the deployment, uh, yeah. We met at the, uh – we were all at the café.
          Q: Right.
          A: Uh, we got together with Blue Ridge.
          Q: Okay.
          A: And, um, the plan was to, um, get all the ALS gear into the pickup that I was in.
          Q: Mm-hm.
          A: And we were gonna take, um, uh, four additional medics with myself. I’m an EMT.
          Q: Okay.
          A: They were – they were gonna take the 4 medics, um, and then we were gonna, uh, either try to locate them or treat them when they were located. Uh, my truck was gonna go in with the Blue Ridge, um, supt, and, uh, they had a Rhino, and then they were gonna take their sup truck along with us; so it was gonna be those 3 vehicles that were gonna go – either try to locate them when it cooled down enough or, um, start treatment whenever they were able to find ’em.
          ———————————————————————————-

          >> Marti also wrote…
          >> And I’m seriously troubled by the fact that Rance Marquez’ narrative,
          >> which he so carefully put together for the ADOSH interview, isn’t
          >> supported by the visual evidence. Maybe that’s just “the fog of war.”
          >> But it’s just not “making science” to me.

          Also with regards to Tyson Esquibel’s interview… there seemed to be no doubt in his mind that Gary Cordes wasn’t just SPGS for Yarnell. Esquibel seemed to be sure that Cordes was a ‘Division Supervisor’ there on the south end of the fire since he was (quote) “doing all the things a Division Supervisor would do.”

          Esquibel was never even really aware that someone named ‘Marquez’ had showed up earlier and was declaring that HE was ‘DIvision Z’ Sup.

          To Esquibel… DIVSZ was Gary Cordes and no one ever gave him any reason to think otherwise. Interesting.

          • Marti Reed says

            I wrote an earlier response, but it got lost in moderation (typod my email address……)

            That white State Fire truck goes east by the videocam at 3:54 PM. So it can’t be Tyson.

            I’ve always thought Tyson was driving the big Glendale Special Ops van with the gold stripe. It’s out at the Youth Camp in one of the Blue Ridge photos. And that’s what he meant by “his pickup.” It was extremely specially outfitted for hazardous EMT kinds of stuff.

            It was dispatched that morning, and, I think, assigned to him. He had to catch a ride to the fire (don’t have the dispatch stuff open atm) with somebody else.

  4. Marti Reed says

    I just posted a video to You Tube called “Yarnell Fire Behavior Timelapse.”

    As I was, yesterday, still working on cleaning up my “Vehicle Timeline,” I found myself mesmerized and screen-snapped these. They’re not carefully calculated, time-wise, so I put the timestamps on the images, along with a few notations of what was happening.

    It starts a bit before the deployment, when you can see the big flames over the Shrine Road/Youth Camp area. It ends at the final frame of the final Panebaker Air2Ground video.

    Here’s the link. I hope it works. (I’m having a REALLY hard time posting comments here, as if I haven’t already paid my dues).

    I’m gonna put this up via Dropbox, also, but I only have so much bandwidth.

    http://youtu.be/6Il4vUrOYHU

    • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

      Well done, Marti.

      About a week before the anniversary… while we were ‘chasing cars’ on Hays Ranch Road, I also found it useful to SPEED UP these Panebaker Air-To-Air channel videos.

      I uploaded everything to YouTube and they do come in handy for TWO reasons…

      1) Finding vehicles without re-watching the LONG versions of the videos.

      2) Getting a full sense of the SPEED and the POWER with which that fire headed SOUTH.

      I uploaded them to the following PUBLIC YouTube account…

      YouTube Account Page for: WantsToKnowTheTruth…
      http://www.youtube.com/channel/UChknok8ZdSi8mPJ9nAK2L7A

      As of June 23… that account contains the following ‘sped up’ versions of the Panebaker Air-To-Air channel videos…

      NOTE: Your time-lapse is superior to these since you put the TIMES of the image
      captures right on the screen. These videos don’t have that. They are just pure
      SPED UP versions of the original videos… but they are, in fact, ‘continuous’ speed-ups
      and are now similar to the Matt-Oss video taken of the same timeframe from the
      the Congress side of Yarnell. They give you the FEEL of how fast that fire was moving.

      Panebaker Air-To-Air Channel videos 6 times faster than normal…

      1510-EP-X-6
      1544-EP-X-6
      1628-EP-X-6
      1643-EP-X-6
      1716-EP-X-6

      Panebaker Air-To-Air Channel videos 35 times faster than normal…

      1643-EP-X-35

      ** DETAILS ON EACH VIDEO

      1510-EP-X-6
      Published on Jun 23, 2014
      Panebaker Air-To-Air channel capture video 20130630_1510_EP at 6 times normal speed.
      Original video length: 22 minutes and 10 seconds (1,330 seconds).
      6x video length: 3 minutes 41 seconds (221 seconds).
      Each second of THIS video equals 6 seconds in the original.

      1544-EP-X-6
      Published on Jun 22, 2014
      Panebaker Air-To-Air channel capture video 20130630_1544_EP at 6 times normal speed.
      Original video length: 28 minutes 12 seconds (1,692 seconds).
      6x video length: 4 minutes 42 seconds (282 seconds).
      Each second of THIS video equals 6 seconds in the original.

      1628-EP-X-6
      Published on Jun 23, 2014
      Panebaker Air-To-Air channel capture video 20130630_1628_EP at 6 times normal speed.
      Original video length: 40 minutes and 14 seconds (2,414 seconds).
      6x video length: 6 minutes 42 seconds (402 seconds).
      Each second of THIS video equals 6 seconds in the original.

      1643-EP-X-6
      Published on Jun 22, 2014
      Panebaker Air-To-Air channel capture video 20130630_1643_EP at 6 times normal speed.
      Original video length: 12 minutes and 22 seconds (742 seconds).
      6x video length: 2 minutes 3 seconds (123 seconds).
      Each second of THIS video equals 6 seconds in the original.

      1716-EP-X-6
      Published on Jun 23, 2014
      Panebaker Air-To-Air channel capture video 20130630_1716_EP at 6 times normal speed.
      Original video length: 31 minutes and 25 seconds (1,885 seconds).
      6x video length: 5 minutes 14 seconds (314 seconds).
      Each second of THIS video equals 6 seconds in the original.

      1643-EP-X-35
      Published on Jun 23, 2014
      Panebaker Air-To-Air channel capture video 20130630_1643_EP at 35 times normal speed.
      Original video length: 12 minutes and 22 seconds ( 742 seconds ).
      21x video length: 21 seconds
      Each second of THIS video equals 35.3 seconds in the original

      • Marti Reed says

        Awesome! Thank you! I”ll definitely be checking these out, when I’m not as brain-dead as I currently am.

        I’ve been watching these videos for weeks, as I’ve searched for VIV (Very Important Vehicles).

        Watching the Panebakers, you really see that fire turn around with incredible power. And in the images that I”ve used, it seems you see the flaming front, or actually two of them, burning at the bottom of the “big bowl” (which it had come down) and also at the bottom of the “little bowl” which was filled with unburned fuel and would, thus become a chimney.

        And then the Mayday and then the smoke drops down and covers the flaming front. And then you see it all rising, intensifying, until eventually it bends over and over, and draws all the smoke down into Yarnell as Yarnell burns.

        Maybe there were back-burns which contributed to some destruction somewhere. But, to me, these images show a fire which was it’s own Master, which didn’t need anything, by then, from any miniscule humans to pursue the course it was bent on pursuing.

        • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

          >> Marti said…
          >> Maybe there were back-burns which contributed to some destruction
          >> somewhere.

          It is, of course, possible. The new Dakota Slone videos almost seem to support that theory… but ONLY on the EAST side of the fire towards
          Highway 89. They shed no light on what might have been happening
          out there in the Sesame area or near the Boulder Springs Ranch.

          >> Marti also said…
          >> But, to me, these images show a fire which was it’s own Master, which
          >> didn’t need anything, by then, from any miniscule humans to pursue
          >> the course it was bent on pursuing.

          Also agree.

          In the ‘sped up’ version of the 1643 video… it’s really quite clear that the same situation that was easily seen from the FRONT in all of the photos taken by Granite Mountain itself just increased in intensity and the only ‘help’ it needed was contact with that massive amount of ‘gasoline on a stick’ in that middle bowl and some wind behind it.

          The Panebaker videos show that the WESTERN edge of that same fireline photograhed so clearly by Christopher MacKenzie himself was ALREADY pushing DUE SOUTH when he took his photos… and simply CONTINUED to do that with no ‘backburns’ needed to help it reach that box canyon.

          That western edge of the fireline as seen clearly in Christopher’s own photos was only 4,400 feet from the mouth of the box canyon… even before they decided to take ‘the hike’.

          The Panebaker videos just show that WESTERN part of the fireline continuing to charge straight south…. and meet them at the mouth of the box canyon.

          Watching both the Matt Oss vide ‘time lapse’, taken from the Congress side, and now these ‘other side view’ time lapses running at the same (fast) speed but taken from the Peeples Valley perspective…

          …it is still inconceivable to me that they could not have known they were getting into deep tapioca just by LOOKING UP.

          YES… they lost sight of actual ‘flames on the ground’ when they dropped into that canyon… but both video perspectives now show that if they couldn’t see what was happening up in the AIR around them, and ahead of them… then they either had sun-blindness… or they were staring at the ground and not even LOOKING UP.

      • Marti Reed says

        These really are excellent!! Everybody should see them.

        I wrote awhile back that I thought everybody should watch the Air2Air videos, but it it does take a lot of time, watching the grass grow and blow in front of the conflagration.

        No more excuses. WTKTT you have made the whole fire and its changing nature and direction available for everyone to see.

        Great guitar meditation, also. I was having enuff trouble getting Lightroom to put the slideshow together right, and I thought about music, but couldn’t quickly think of anything appropriate.

        And it is so fortunate the Panebaker Crew went out and took these videos. For sure they were intended to analyze the effectiveness of aerial fire suppression, but they really documented the whole fire behavior and these videos are priceless.

      • Marti Reed says

        This version isn’t working well out of Dropbox. I’m going to re-export it in a smaller version and repost it. I just hate losing too much resolution.

  5. WantsToKnowTheTruth says

    **
    ** ANNIVERSARY 1 – NEW INFORMATION COMES OUT – PART 2

    As I was hoping might happen… the local Arizona Media Outlets returned to the their ‘raw footage’ archives from a year ago and some of the ‘anniversary’ reports featured video that either hasn’t actually been seen before or only appeared briefly ‘on the air’ and then was ‘pulled’ from their sites and sent to their archives.

    SIDENOTE: Why neither investigative team ( SAIT or ADOSH ) ever made ‘official’ requests for ALL of the raw video from these local media outlets is yet another mystery. They SHOULD have.

    One of those videos that showed up a few days ago that I don’t think ever made it ‘onto the air’ is footage taken on July 4, 2013 showing ‘Patrick Bernard’s’ property.

    Patrick Bernard is the guy who owns that property out at the FAR end of ‘West Way’. He is an artist and he was/is building a large home on that site.

    That is where Jerry Thompson and his ‘Sun City’ crew ( and brush truck(s) ) had been working doing ‘structure protection’ about 1/2 mile due south of the Shrine Road Youth Camp… and the location for ALL of Jerry Thompson’s photos and videos taken June 30, 2013.

    The REASON this ‘new video footage’ is important is that since the discussion leading right up to the first anniversary was including BACKBURN possiibilites… and the Jerry Thompson / Sun City crew was the crew that was working further WEST of town that day than anyone else, except for Tyson Esquibel’s crews over in Harper Canyon… any new evidence about what the Sun City Crews were actually DOING out there WEST of Yarnell remains totally relevant.

    This is the ‘video’ that ‘resurfaced’ a few days ago.
    The ‘Bernard Compound’ ( Jerry Thompson’s work location ) is featured in the second part…

    http://archive.cincinnati.com/VideoNetwork/2535192898001/Yarnell-residents-return-to-charred-homes

    The compound itself where they were working out there at the extreme western end of ‘West Way’ was similar in size to the ‘Boulder Springs Ranch’ ( 2 – 2.5 acres ) and was fairly ‘free’ of vegetation, so it is not exactly clear WHY they were out there doing a lot of work on it… or who even TOLD them to be out there working on it. Jerry Thompson and the Sun City trucks were apparently NOT ‘officially’ part of Tyson Esquibel’s ‘Task Force’ on the south end of the fire so they may have been getting their ‘work assignments’ directly from SPGS Gary Cordes.

    NOTE: Apparently… if you also drove out to the extreme western end of ‘Juniper Way’ you would also see this compound just a few hundreds yards west.

    The VIDEO shows that ( just like the Boulder Springs Ranch ) the compound mostly SURVIVED the intense burnover/burnaround… but there WAS some damage. Some vehicles that were ‘outside’ burned up, etc… but all in all the structures survived.

    So even though ‘Jerry Thompson’ and the ‘Sun City’ crew/trucks were working out there on structure protection pretty much farther WEST than any other crew in the Yarnell area ( except for Tyson Esquibel’s crews over in Harper Canyon ), there is NO EVIDENCE in either Thompson’s own videos or the newly released post-fire video footage of the Bernard compound that they did ANY BACKBURNING at all that day. At least not at THAT location… which is where they were right up until the moment they had to evacuate to the Ranch House Restaurant like everyone else did.

    As the fireline was approaching… they barely had time to get out of there themselves. Just one more ‘too close for comfort’ evacuation of firefighters that day in Yarnell. The ’embers’ were already falling on them in the last part of Thompson’s last video when he says “We need to get the hell out of here”. So it is VERY doubtful they would then pause to initiate ANY kind of ‘backburn’ as they were evacuating. It doesn’t appear that they had time for that, even if they had considered doing it.

    ** THE JERRY THOMSPON VIDEOS TAKEN AT THIS ‘PATRICK BERNARD’ COMPOUND…

    The BOULDER PILE seen in the new video footage just behind the ‘barn’ structure at the Patrick Bernard compound is exactly where Jerry Thompson and his crew were standing when Jerry Thompson shot all his photos and videos that ended up in the SAIR FOIA/FOIL package.

    They had ‘climbed up’ onto that boulder pile just west of the ‘barn’ specifically to see where the fireline was and to take those pictures and videos.

    ** IMG_1101.3gp – 1524 ( 3:24 PM )

    ** IMG_1134.3gp – 1627 ( 4:27 PM ) – Contains same sirens heard in YARNELL-GAMBLE video

    Shot from the same location as his still photo IMG_1898 that he took at 1624 ( 4:24 PM ).

    It has the same ‘loaf of bread’ rock formation in the close foreground.

    The center of THAT rock formation is exactly here…

    34.224534, -112.755400

    We can’t actually ‘see’ where Jerry Thompson was really standing when he shot this photo… but based on his apparent distance from the ‘loaf’ rock formation, his slightly ELEVATED position, and the TREE that is seen on the very left side of the panorama… it would appear that he had just worked his way down the north side of that large rock pile and was standing on a ‘ledge-like’ flat rock that is exactly here…

    34.223798, -112.756362

    • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

      **
      ** THE PATRICK BERNARD LAND PARCEL

      SIDENOTE: I’m not sure everyone was aware of this… but Yavapai County is using one of the new highly sophisticated online ‘Property Information’ systems that can tell you about ‘Land Parcels’ in Yavapai County, who owns them, and what the ‘assesed’ value is for tax purposes.

      It even accepts simple Latitude, Longitude coordinates.

      All you have to do is use plain old Google Maps to find the Lat/Long of any spot on the ground in Yavapai County… then just drop those coordinates into the online ‘Property Information’ system and you get information like the following…

      Lookup on the exact spot in that ‘Boulder Pile’ just west of the Patrick Bernard compound where Jerry Thompson shot his photos/videos…

      34.224534, -112.755400

      Land Parcel Search results…

      ** Yavapai County Land Parcel Interactive Search Page

      http://gis.yavapai.us/v4/

      The Yavapai County Land Parcel number that this compound is
      located on is 203-03-067E.

      Information for Yavapai County Land Parcel 203-03-067E
      ——————————————————————————————–

      * OWNER INFORMATION…

      Owner: BERNARD PATRICK J & MILLSSA REV TRUST
      Mailing address: PO BOX 865, YARNELL, AZ 853620865
      Secondary Owner: N/A
      Recorded Documents & Sales (1)
      Date: 08/08/2003
      Book/Page: 4061/3
      Type: Other
      Cost: $0

      * PARCEL INFORMATION…

      Check Digit: 1
      Physical Address: 17070 W West Way
      Incorporated Area: N/A
      Assessor Acres: 13.17
      Subdivision: N/A
      Subdivision Type: N/A
      School District: Yarnell Elementary SD #52
      Fire District: Yarnell FD
      County Zoning Violation: No Zoning Violation

      * IMPROVEMENTS

      Improvements (1)
      Type: Barn
      Floor area: 1800
      Effective/constructed: 1980

      * ASSESSMENT

      Note: Starting with the 2015 tax year, the Limited Property Value is the only value considered for taxation purposes, the Full Cash Value is no longer used for taxation.

      2014 Assessment
      2014 Assessed Limited Value: $9,497
      2014 Limited Value: $59,358
      2014 Full Cash Value: $59,358
      2014 Net Assessment Ratio: 16
      2014 Legal Class: Vacant or Other

      2015 Assessment
      2015 Assessed Limited Value: $9,497
      2015 Limited Value: $59,358
      2015 Full Cash Value: $59,358
      2015 Net Assessment Ratio: 16
      2015 Legal Class: Vacant or Other

      * TAXES

      Tax Area Code: 5270
      2013 Taxes Billed: $1,501
      ———————————————————————————————–

    • Joy A Collura says

      I bet the people I just hiked the past few days if they read your comment would love to see that link because that is spot on to the area I speak about that people need to come forward—-with all documentation—Pat Bernard as well has some fine videos—however, I have to state when I sat on that spot on boulder angle towards Bernards and Helms—I just am sorry I cannot conceive any human being going through Doug’s extended area BEFORE the fire—there was such a jungle of catclaw/scrub oak/and vegetation that would just rip you to shreds and a year later you can experience the torn skin but not like BEFORE the fire—let me go see the link you posted even though I am over my bandwidth until the 17th—

  6. calvin says

    There are three videos that have been posted on Facebook that are very relevant (IMO) to the discussions that have been had here at IM. These videos say they were taken at the Ash Creek Fire in 2012. They show a fire trap (?) a large group of WFF’s including a USFS hotshot group. These videos are very impressive as they show extreme fire behavior, the use of a safety zone, and you can hear in real time the response of the people involved.

    These videos were posted by a volunteer firefighter in Oregon. You can find these videos by looking at Trenton Snyder’s Facebook page. He posted these videos Saturday and Sunday.

    WTK… Could you provide a link to these videos like you did the Dakota Sloan videos? Thanks

    • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

      Reply to calvin post on July 2, 2014 at 2:43 am

      >> calvin said…
      >> There are three videos that have been posted on Facebook that are very
      >> relevant (IMO) to the discussions that have been had here at IM.

      Fascinating videos. Thanks for pointing them out.

      My take on these videos…

      Definitely not a ‘sit in a lawn chair and drink a beer’ kind of safety zone. It was large… but so was the fire. ALL fireman were ORDERED to get into their vehicles and ‘ride it out’ inside the vehicles. The ‘roll calls’ to verify ‘all crew accounted for’ took place over the radio after everyone was INSIDE their vehicles with all windows rolled up.

      No injuries ( thank goodness )… but after the ‘burnaround’…. EVERYONE was complaining of their ‘eyes burning’ and a lot of joking about the ‘crying’ ( everyone tearing up ). So it wasn’t a picnic. There might actually have been some ‘smoke inhalation’ issues for some of the FFs following this incident.

      These 3 videos are an illustration of what I was saying down below about it now being the ‘TwitBook’ generation that is ‘out on the fireline’. They have this overwhelming need to photo/video document their lives.

      At one point… a captain or supervisor actually put his HAND over this guy’s camera lens and said ‘no more pictures’. He followed it up with an order to EVERYONE ‘put the cameras away, fellas’.

      They didn’t.

      As soon as this captain/supervisor walked away the video was rolling again and also captures some others resuming their ‘picture taking’.

      I don’t think the guy was trying to ‘censor’ anyone. From his ‘tone’ it sounded like he was just trying to impress upon them that they were now entering an ’emergency’ situation and he just wanted them all focused and paying attention to what they might have to do and stop playing ‘tourist’. That’s hard for the TwitBook generation to do. These smartphones are now an extension of themselves and some of them NEVER actually turn them off. Not even when they are sleeping.

      The other fascinating thing ( to me, anyway ) about these videos is what they show with regards to the SKY and the HORIZON when you are on the ‘receiving end’ of an advancing firefront that you ARE going to let ‘go around you’.

      It has always bothered me that YES… Granite Mountain was apparently not even aware of the rapid advance of the fireline out in the ‘bowl’ even BEFORE they reached the saddle at 4:20… and YES… they certainly lost sight any chance to actually see FIRELINE for those 19 minutes after dropping OFF the saddle and descending…

      …but as these videos show… it still seems like they SHOULD have been able to discern a LOT about the proximity of the fire and what it was doing just by looking UP.

      Every step down that decent…. the smoke cloud up above ( and on the horizon that they COULD still see ) was building and building and getting bigger and bigger and I still can’t believe they didn’t SEE that and realize something ‘wicked this way comes’…. or at least take a moment to CHECK with ‘someone else’ about what was happening ‘out there’.

      They didn’t. They just kept going… and going… and going… until it was too late.

      Some kind of absolute inability to even ADMIT they might be making a mistake?

      Some kind of level of hubris that didn’t allow them to even consider they might
      have been wrong about their ‘assumptions’ and the ‘parameters of the mission’?

      They must have been able to see SOMETHING ‘out there’…. unless they were so
      focused on the ‘bushwhack’ that not even one of 19 men who are supposed to
      be fire experts even bothered to LOOK UP…. until it was too late.

      • calvin says

        Thank You WTKTT.

        1. What is the correct way to describe what happens in these videos? near miss, burnover, entrapment, SOP?

        2. The guy in the driver seat says he has deployed his fire shelter once and almost a second time (if I hear him correctly)

        3. The other guy talking a lot says he hasn’t experienced anything quite so bad (as what is happening in the video)

        4. The radio(s) seem to stop working just as the fire approaches/ surrounds the SZ

        5. Are events like this reported ?

        6. Thanks again WTKTT

        • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

          That first video ( the one that captures the actual burnover ) is pretty crazy.

          Sad part is watching that entire group of cows run directly off into
          the approaching fire.

          What’s really unbelievable is that while they are ‘closing up’ the vehicles
          you get a good look at what’s in the BACKS of all of them and there
          are GAS cans all over the place… from the ones in the backs of the
          Hotshot chase trucks to the ones that appear to be just sitting in people’s
          PACKS that were all thrown into the backs of pickups…

          …and then you see the hot, flaming embers falling everywhere even
          down past the windows of the vehicles themselves.

          They are lucky they all didn’t die in a massive explosion with all
          those gas cans exposed to the flaming embers.

          So I would add a question to Calvin’s list.

          Are there no procedures for making sure the gas cans are all offloaded
          into one vehicle… and then THAT vehicle needs to be AWAY from all
          the others?

          What about fusees?

          It also looks like they are lucky one of those packs just piled into the back of the pickups didn’t ‘go off’.

  7. The Truth Will Always Remain Elusive says

    The Prescott City Council voted to appeal the Ashcraft decision today, so apparently there was no deal to keep Prescott out of the lawsuit.

    Also, in the recent flury of articles the Courier published for the one year anniversary, there were some facts provided regarding the rumored, but only very briefly documented story of the crew that was running for their lives in the Shrine area, only to find their vehicles gone from where they parked them.

    This paricular incident envolved members of the Peeples Valley Fire Department, and the article was about them. Their leader was ordered by an overhead supervisor to move the vehicles, and when he resisted because the crew was still out on the line at the time the fire was blowing up, he was then absolutely ordered to move them, there-by abandoning the rest of the crew and leaving them to fend for themselves. The superior giving the order was not identified in the article.

    That overhead supervisor apparently was not concerned enough to go out and make direct contact with the crew and let them know he was ordering their vehicles be moved, along with assuring that they were going to be indeed, safe. Not a nice suprise to find out when you’re running for your lives to the vehicles you’re hoping will deliver you from death.

    The link to the article is here:

    http://dcourier.com/main.asp?SectionID=1&SubSectionID=1086&ArticleID=133345&TM=83850.59

    • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

      Reply to TTWARE post on July 1, 2014 at 8:24 pm

      >> TTWARE said…
      >>
      >> The Prescott City Council voted to appeal the Ashcraft decision today, so
      >> apparently there was no deal to keep Prescott out of the lawsuit.

      Um… yea… I would say that’s a given ( unless it’s one of the dirtiest legal tricks the world has ever seen… negotiate for something that has a deadline and then 24 hours after the deadline that the other side was up against… go back on your promise ).

      The articles never said the ‘negotiations’ over this were ever completed and they seemed to indicate that even all discussion about it stopped around June 20.

      So it looks like the REAL reasons why Prescott might have been removed from the wrongful death suits will remain a mystery for a while.

      Maybe the plaintiff’s lawyers really do believe that Prescott’s claim that they could never possibly be held liable for anything that happened with ( or because of ) any of their own employees that day really will ‘hold water’ in court.

      • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

        Following up my own post above with more about the other ‘possible’
        reason why Prescott was dropped from the ‘wrongful death’ lawsuits.

        We now KNOW there was no ‘quid pro quo’ deal in place that had anything to do with Andrew Ashcraft’s benefits… since Prescott didn’t even let 24 hours go by after ‘Remembering the Hotshots’ to prove they have every intention of ‘Forgetting the Hotshots’ by voting 4-2 in the City Council to fight every ruling that says they owe full-time employee benefits for Andrew Ashcraft.

        So there was no ‘deal in place’. That’s obvious now.

        But here is that original article, anyway, that appeared at 6:00 AM on the morning of the one year anniversary.

        It has the ‘other possible explanation’ in it.

        Prescott City Attorney John Paladini is saying flat-out that NO action on the part of ANY City of Prescott employee that leads to a death can make the City itself ‘liable’ for damages. Period. End of story. Even if it could be proved that Darrell Willis was ‘telling’ Eric Marsh to ‘get to town’… or that Darrell Willis was ‘one person removed’ from that and was telling someone like Jason Clawson to call them and ‘tell them that’….
        .
        …the City of Prescott would still in no way be ‘liable’ for the actions of that employee OR the other two employees ( Marsh and Steed ) that made the actual decision to lead 17 other ’employees’ into a potential death trap.

        Paladini is sure of Prescott’s ‘position’ and it is…

        “The reality is the city has statutory immunity (through Workers Comp), and can’t be held liable for wrongful death,” Paladini said.

        Maybe he’s actually right… and maybe the attorneys for the plaintiffs realize it.

        Prescott Daily Courier
        6/30/2014 6:00:00 AM
        Prescott City Council: Appeal of Ashcraft retirement decision up for review
        http://www.prescottaz.com/main.asp?SectionID=1&SubsectionID=1&ArticleID=133343

        PRESCOTT – A decision is expected this week on whether the City of Prescott will appeal a May ruling by its Public Safety Retirement Board to grant retirement benefits to the family of fallen Granite Mountain Hotshot Andrew Ashcraft.

        In a special meeting that will take place after the Prescott City Council’s regular workshop at 3 p.m. Tuesday, council members will discuss and possibly act on an appeal of the local Public Safety Personnel Retirement System (PSPRS) board’s decision regarding the application by Ashcraft’s widow Juliann Ashcraft.

        UPDATE: That meeting has already taken place. The Prescott City Council voted 4-2 to fight ANY requirement to pay full benefits to Juliann Ashcraft regardless of what Prescott’s own ‘Public Safety Retirement Board’ has to say about it.

        The council has conducted several discussions on whether to appeal that decision to Superior Court, as well as whether to accept a settlement proposal from Ashcraft’s attorney.

        This week, City Attorney Jon Paladini explained that Ashcraft’s attorneys earlier proposed dropping the city from the wrongful death lawsuits that were pending from the families of 12 of the fallen Hotshots. In exchange, the city would agree not to appeal Ashcraft’s decision, and would not oppose the similar retirement claims by the families of fallen Hotshots William Warneke and Sean Misner.

        Meanwhile, however, the one-year deadline for the wrongful death lawsuits was approaching on June 30, and the attorneys for the 12 Hotshot families ultimately filed their wrongful complaint this past Wednesday, without naming the City of Prescott as a defendant.

        Paladini said that leaves the city with the remaining decision on whether to appeal the board’s decision. And he maintains that the city did not delay its own decision to do an “end run” around the settlement offer.

        Rather, he said the city was awaiting “actuarial” figures on the estimated cost of adding the three Hotshots to its retirement program. The city has since learned that the increased retirement cost would be about $1.9 million, spread out over coming years.

        And Paladini says the decision to remove the city from the wrongful death lawsuit was likely based on the strength of the plaintiffs’ case, not on the settlement offer.

        “The reality is the city has statutory immunity (through Workers Comp), and can’t be held liable for wrongful death,” Paladini said.

        He added that two Yarnell Hill fire investigation reports that came out previously “exonerated the city.”

        “Our exposure was really, really minimal,” Paladini said.

        Ashcraft’s attorney Patrick McGroder said Friday afternoon that he had initially proposed the settlement agreement to the city, but later withdrew it in a June 20 letter.

        The letter states: “I have consulted with my clients regarding the efficacy of their wrongful death claims against the city. They agree with me that we will not pursue wrongful death claims against the city period, irrespective of any of the other terms of our settlement proposal.”

        McGroder said on Friday that he and his clients agreed that there should be no suggestion of a “quid pro quo” in the matter.

    • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

      Reply to TTWARE post on July 1, 2014 at 8:24 pm

      >> TTWARE said…
      >> Also, in the recent flury of articles the Courier published for the one year
      >> anniversary, there were some facts provided regarding the rumored, but only
      >> very briefly documented story of the crew that was running for their lives in the
      >> Shrine area, only to find their vehicles gone from where they parked them.

      That’s an amazing article. Lots of detail… and it significantly changes the ‘picture’
      of what was actually happening circa 4:15 to 4:30 in the Youth Camp area at the
      end of Shrine road.

      According to THIS account… those men were all still BACK THERE at the Youth Camp
      at the moment that PNF ‘off the radar’ hires Jason Clawson, Aaron Hulburd and KC ‘Bucky’ Yowell were filming the ‘Helmet Cam’ video from the St. Joseph Shrine parking lot.

      >> TTWARE also wrote…
      >> This particular incident involved members of the Peeples Valley Fire Department, and
      >> the article was about them. Their leader was ordered by an overhead supervisor to
      >> move the vehicles, and when he resisted because the crew was still out on the line
      >> at the time the fire was blowing up, he was then absolutely ordered to move them,
      >> there-by abandoning the rest of the crew and leaving them to fend for themselves.
      >> The superior giving the order was not identified in the article.

      It had to be Tyson Esquibel.

      Esquibel says basically NOTHING about this ‘almost fatal’ story in his interviews with both the SAIT and ADOSH investigators.

      >> TTWARE also wrote…
      >> That overhead supervisor apparently was not concerned enough to go out and
      >> make direct contact with the crew and let them know he was ordering their vehicles
      >> be moved, along with assuring that they were going to be indeed, safe.

      It’s worse than that.

      According to the article… the reason he ( Esquibel? ) was ORDERING the guys with the vehicles to MOVE OUT NOW was because he was already convinced the crew that was working out there at the WEST end of Harper Canyon were ‘goners’.

      The article suggests that the reason he ( Esquibel ) insisted they go ahead and leave RIGHT NOW is because ( quote ) “Those men can’t run that fast’.

      In other words… no use waiting for them because they won’t be able to outrun the fire at that point and might as well just let them ‘deploy’… .or something.

      Esquibel was actually ABANDONING them…. and even the local FF in the article says he ‘couldn’t believe it’.

      >> TTWARE also said…
      >> Not a nice suprise to find out when you’re running for your lives to the vehicles
      >> you’re hoping will deliver you from death.

      The article says the men were, in fact, ANGRY to discover their comrades had just driven off and left them… but then they add some ‘spin’ to the story saying that the absence of the vehicles *might* have helped saved their lives because they might have all been burned over at that location if they had actually stopped to get into vehicles. That’s how close it was. They credit their survival to being forced to get on the asphalt road by the Youth Camp at the point and literally ‘haul ass’ EAST to the St. Joseph Shrine parking lot where they say the vehicles were staged… and where they ALSO then say they witnessed the actual ‘burnaround’ over at the St. Joseph Shrine itself.

      That’s why I say that if the details here are correct… then when PDN ‘off the radar’ hires Jason Clawson, Aaron Hulburd and KC ‘Bucky’ Yowell were shooting the ‘Helmet-Cam’ video… then those vehicles MUST have still been ‘back there’ at the Youth Camp and hadn’t even made it to the Shrine Parking Lot yet… where they were going to ‘stage’.

      If they HAD… then would SEE THEM in the ‘Helmet Cam’ video.

      We don’t.

      All we see in the Helmet Cam video is Clawson, Hulburd and Yowell ( and their 3 vehicles ) in the actual parking lot of the St. Joseph Shrine even as late as 1640… DURING Steed’s and Caldwell’s repeated attempts to get John Burfiend to pay attention to them up in ‘Bravo 33’.

      I think even this one ‘new’ video alone is reason enough to call everyone back in for more interviews to get of this ‘straightened out’ since he piss-poor investigation(s) failed to do so.

      And THIS time… Prescott PNF ‘mystery men’ Jason Clawson, Aaron Hulburd and KC ‘Bucky’ Yowell need to be INCLUDED in that round of ‘interviews’.

      • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

        Correction for above:

        I said…

        >> I think even this one ‘new’ video alone is reason enough to call everyone
        >> back in for more interviews to get of this ‘straightened out’ since he piss-poor
        >> investigation(s) failed to do so.

        There is no VIDEO associated with the article posted by TTWARE.
        It’s just an article containing ‘testimony’ from the men involved…

        …but my opinion still stands. I think this one newly-surfaced accounting is enough to justify a complete new set of ‘interviews’…. including Clawson, Hulburd and Yowell this time.

        • mike says

          The investigations are over. The reports are written and there is no one clamoring to reopen the process that matters. The families are committed to the lawsuits now. The only ones who will be asking questions now are plaintiff and defense attorneys. I was surprised by some of the reported chatter by firefighters there that day around the one year mark, but I suspect that will get shut down when notices for depositions start going out.

          I have no idea what to expect from the legal process. If it goes to trial, I fear it will be brutal – defense attorneys are not known for caring about feelings. I suspect the GMHS will get savaged for their actions that day. I am sure the families were told this and decided to go ahead anyways. – not out of greed, but because they want the truth. Somehow I feel this is all going to end very badly.

          • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

            mike… of course it’s going to be brutal.

            Once Arizona Forestry decided not to do a real investigation… that was pretty much inevitable.

            As far as the ‘investigations are over’… I’m not so sure.

            One of the articles last weekend also said that there is actually ANOTHER ‘active investigation’ in progress being conducted by the Boise Idaho Fire Center experts. Not sure who contracted that. Might have been either the plaintiffs or the defendants in this case.

            Something tells me if it’s the Boise people it would have to be on behalf of the defendants. I don’t think the Boise people would take the side of the plaintiffs for any amount of money.

            Also… you said it yourself in your last sentence.

            One of the OUTCOMES for the upcoming BRUTAL court fight is that if the plaintiffs win… they WANT a NEW INVESTIGATION to finally to be done and done right.

            So even that is ‘on the line’.

            If Arizona Forestry really doesn’t want this ‘accident’ to EVER be fully and properly investigated… then they better WIN.

            • mike says

              Not sure the idea of winning so as to get a proper investigation is really meaningful. I think in order to win, the plaintiffs are going to have to pretty much uncover what happened that day on heir own, and the narrative is going to have to be different than what is out there now. If what is known remains as is now, I think the plaintiffs are behind. But, then again, they may know more than is publicly known. And I am not a lawyer either.

      • Marti Reed says

        Yikes.

        Just passing thru while posting a bunch of stuff, but reading this made me want to throw up.

        Remember, this is the guy who, in his ADOSH interview, blew everybody’s minds when he said he absolutely for sure knew he saw the Granite Mountain Buggies at the Boulder Springs Ranch that morning.

        • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

          Tyson Esquibel is also the guy who took all the air out of the room during his ADOSH interview when he basically told the ADOSH investigators that given the same set of circumstances… he would have ordered his crews to do exactly what GM did.

          Esquibel told them that in his mind… there is little to no separation between Wildland firefighting and protecting structures. It’s all the same.

          He was telling them that if he had the opportunity to do either… he would still feel an obligation to ‘move’ and ‘re-engage’… just like Marsh did.

    • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

      Reply to TTWARE post on July 1, 2014 at 8:24 pm

      >> TTWARE wrote…
      >> The link to the article is here:

      http://dcourier.com/main.asp?SectionID=1&SubSectionID=1086&ArticleID=133345&TM=83850.59

      Also in this article about this ‘near death’ experience on the part of Tyson Esquibel’s crew(s)… DOZER Operator ‘Justin Hernandez’ enters the picture once again… even though Justin Hernandez ( like PNF mystery men Jason Clawson, Aaron Hulburd and KC ‘Bucky’ Yowell ) was never interviews by ANYONE.

      From the article…
      ———————————————————————————————–
      The Blue Ridge Hotshots and the eight men from Yarnell, Wickenburg and Sun City came together from different directions at about 2:30 p.m. and followed a bulldozer to improve the line behind it.

      The dozer apparently was unable to cross a deep ravine and turned around. The eight men from Yarnell, Wickenburg and Sun City had to cut through the last quarter-mile or so of dense oak, catclaw and manzanita on their own. Brandon said he later found out from the dozer operator that he left not because of the ravine, but because he had been warned that the fire changed course.
      ———————————————————————————————–

      So bad enough that Justin Hernandez didn’t even pass along what he was hearing on the radio to the firefighters working right here WITH him… we now hear FF Bob Brandon say that he actually ‘talked to him ( Hernandez ) later’

      What does ‘later’ mean?
      Later that day?

      Hernandez ended up MISSING and DPS Helicopter Ranger 58 was actually ‘looking’ for him from the Air following the deployment.

      If this Peeples Valley FF Bob Brandon ‘talked to him later’… then was that BEFORE or AFTER someone found out that Hernandez was still alive?

      It’s not a pretty picture of this ‘evacuation’ that is ( had has been ) emerging ever since this fire. Talk about ‘lessons learned’. This is NOT the way to evacuate firefighters under ANY circumstances.

      The Peeples Valley firefighters were (apparently) abandoned ( by Tyson Esquibel? ) and ‘on their own’… almost died… then DOZER operator Justin Hernandez was, in turn, (apparently) ‘abandoned’ and left ‘on his own’ by both Blue Ridge and Gary Cordes and ended up on the ‘missing persons’ list for a police helicopter… also probably almost died.

      Not good.

      The article also features that picture taken by FF Bob Brandon at the Youth Camp while the fire was approaching. Makes you wonder how many OTHER photos Mr. Brandon might have that have never seen the light of day.

      If he stopped at that critical moment to take that picture… then I’ll bet he was taking pictures ALL DAY.

      • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

        Typos above….

        Should have read…

        It’s not a pretty picture of this ‘evacuation’ that is ( and HAS been ) emerging ever since this fire. Talk about ‘lessons learned’. This is NOT the way to evacuate firefighters under ANY circumstances.

        Oh… sorry… I forgot… Arizona Forestry spent a shitload of taxpayer dollars and has already diligently concluded that ‘no one did anything wrong that day’.

        My bad.

  8. Joy A Collura says

    this comment never made it to a reply to Bob Powers when he said 6-30 was silence day—

    see:
    I will not be here 6-30-14 and today at the Yarnell Memorial I met some real fine folks—firefighters- just the best people and saw Holly Neill— I left the Memorial after a short bit to see Doug and see if I can peak out on his property to where the back burn area was suppose to happen and until I review the photos and videos again after sitting on top of Doug’s area—I just cannot conceive it so PLEASE I ask all people that have photos and videos from 6-30-14 lawyered up or not SHOW THE RIGHT PEOPLE and that are investigative firefighters who feel as STRONGLY as me that the SAIR and the recent video on youtube by Mike Dudley just does a great disservice of the men and I am not wanting to think there was a back burn until you all realize YOUR information MATTERS!!!! Any media can write what they want but its YOUR information NEEDED to properly assess the YHF so PLEASE share—

    Oh my it was hard to meet one person today who knew one of the GMHS dearly and I don’t want to get into but it was eery for me yet I understand WHY God led it that way- just so torn up this weekend with the losses, seeing Yarnell faces and Sonny/my properties in Vernon still in threat of loss—but AH is ok.

    Also I miss my hiking pal. He seems so far away. I am going again to Glen Ilah and Yarnell tomorrow then to the Prescott 19 memorial at 4pm….it is just too hard to see the t-shirts sales and crap like that on this kind of weekend—seems insensitive but remember I am born July 1st so I am the extra-sensitive kind—keep you posted if I learn anything.

    • Information says

      Joy – when you say things like this that make it seem like there was a burn out when there really wasn’t it causes agony and pain to the families of the deceased GM they actually believe what you are saying. If there was a burn out it is pretty likely that people would know about it by now. Somebody would have said something. The fire that killed GM ws most probbly a spot fire that got out of control. Look at the way Glen Ilah burned. That was all spot fires from the ember wash.
      You have already asked people to come forward with their pictures and they will not. Unless you are willing to name names and tell people who to approach to ask for more information I am not sure why you keep posting rumors that only upset and confuse the families of the deceased GM guys. No offense intended Joy.

  9. Joy A. Collura says

    The past 2 days were difficult turning down many media requests and I saw Sean—CBS Morgan Loew camera guy coming out from my medical massage yesterday and because Morgan and Sean hiked both the GMHS trail areas and the way Tex (Sonny) took me and saved our lives but 19 men—correction; heroes did not make it out and we did—I honored Sean’s request to speak to Greg but I noticed Sean you did not air that but you did get my first time break down and I am sorry it was publicly shown but the past annual I saw the faces of these men from 6-30-13 not ever looking at media pics of the men really. Walking by and seeing the faces just brought it all back to the very spots I saw them 6-30-13 throughout the day. I just had a real decent medical massage and felt very balanced and in control especially my emotions until the end of the memorial as I passed the faces—I do not know HOW the families and loved ones who knew them do it—I am so heart broken. After walking away numerous stations wanted to talk and I was so in a daze I just answered their questions but I am very blessed to have spent the evening around love— the first person I ever met who told me the photos I had taken were of the GMHS Joanna Dodder and her husband Bruce and my last ever hike that had author Michael Kodas present as well as the Prescott Mayor and his family and some loved ones/friends of the GMHS—in honor of the 19 and Sonny who was not present we all drank Tullamoore Dew/Jameson/Jack Danielson and I had as well 3 Shirley Temples and many had guiness beer! Today is my birthday so I am not going to be online but I had to say thank you to all the support I saw from the Prescott Firefighting Community and thank you Wade Ward for I needed you at that very moment. It helped me a lot. I just looked at the photos and bawled—and kept thinking this should of never happened. I know I got the calls that people saw me on tv for that raw emotion and I am sorry for that because I hiked so many this past annual to the 19 area and all my tears were shed alone at the spot area the died not in some Courthouse public area and that was humiliating for me but I guess I just unraveled as I saw their faces. I wish people did not think about “lawyers” and “book sales” and there was a public area people can share their photos/accounts/videos freely so this YHF can be properly assessed because as much as I like Mike Dudley as a speaker on that recent youtube video—what a disservice him and Karels are doing—as I said to Storm King Technologies Jim Posh and his wife yesterday—it is about science and safety and common sense and as well people building in dense vegetation to carefully design their landscape look with some sort of defensible space in mind. I am very hurt deep inside that these children, widows and loved ones no longer have them yet until I pass on anyone who meets me will know about these heroes; the GMHS…I hope in God’s time for clarity and for the GMHS to continue on—and less politic rivalry in the firefighting community. Those are my hopes—
    Thank you to the loved ones of these fine men who came up to me and spoke to me or I recently hiked privately—that was a God thing—every day you all are on my mind— every second and not just the 19 but all affected by the YHF as well as all fallen heroes—

    • Bob Powers says

      Joy don’t fell humiliated its a human emotion and a love felt to cry. I have done it at my fathers memorial site and in public. I have also lost FS friends to fire accidents including 2 Smoke jumpers on storm king its always the remembrance to me of people I knew,
      You are a great Lady and add so much to this discussion.

  10. WantsToKnowTheTruth says

    **
    ** ANNIVERSARY 1 – NEW INFORMATION COMES OUT – PART 1

    There were a bunch of articles appearing all day yesterday regarding the first anniversary of the 19 fatalities at the Yarnell Hill Fire last June 30, 2013.

    Some important *new* information was coming out in these ‘articles’… mostly from the actual numerous interviews with family members and firefighters.

    I will post more about some of these later ( with more links ) but here is just a sampling…

    * AMANDA MARSH HAS ERIC’S CELLPHONE

    Amanda Marsh has been avoiding the press completely for a full year… but she now says she has had a ‘change of heart’ and wants to share more of what she knows and her experiences with ‘the community’ that she says has been ‘so kind to her’.

    The LONG interview she gave just prior to the anniversary is here…

    The Daily Courier
    Article: Amanda Marsh One Year Later
    Published: 6/30/2014 6:01:00 AM
    By Joanna Dodder Nellans
    http://www.dcourier.com/main.asp?SectionID=1&SubSectionID=1&ArticleID=133327&TM=8656.991

    From the article…
    ______________________________________________________________

    For Amanda Marsh, the one-year anniversary of the death of her husband
    Eric Marsh began a few weeks early on her birthday.

    June 17, 2013 was the last day she and Eric rode their horses Suzie and
    Shorty together. They were in Granite Basin, at the base of the mountain
    that gave the name to the Granite Mountain Hotshots that Eric had
    always led as a superintendent.

    “Then she said, ‘Eric and his crew are missing and I think they deployed their
    shelters,” Amanda recalled. She tried to call Eric but got no answer. She was
    hysterical when she called her mother. A neighbor heard her screaming and
    came to help. She asked the neighbor to go get their other neighbor, Prescott
    firefighter Duane Steinbrink. Duane and his wife picked her up and drove
    toward Prescott.

    Days later, officials told her they needed Eric’s dental records and a description
    of any tattoos. She wasn’t sure why.

    “About five days later it hit me,” she said. “Eric was unrecognizable.”

    Fearing the media would show up at Eric’s funeral, she didn’t tell anyone the
    funeral time until the night before. Eric had protected Granite Basin from the
    Doce wildfire just weeks earlier, so she wanted his funeral to be there.

    Eric’s non-working phone, signal mirror, Granite Mountain Hotshots belt
    buckle and wedding ring were returned to Amanda.
    ______________________________________________________________

    So Amanda Marsh DID receive at least ONE of Eric’s cellphones back ( he has been reported by those that knew him to have always carried TWO cellphones… one totally personal phone and another one being paid for by the City of Prescott ).

    The simple phrase ‘non-working phone’ doesn’t really indicated the real level of ‘damage’ and could mean a lot of things. It could simply have the ‘battery leads’ melted and other wise be in good working order… or it could be a mess.

    Even if it was a ‘mess’… it would still have been possible to retrieve data ( pictures, videos, call history records, text messages, emails, etc. ) from it IF it had been submitted to ACTIC ( Arizona Counter Terrorism Information Center ) like the YCSO police investigators did with EVERY other ‘damaged’ phone that entered the ‘chain of evidence’.

    There is no indication WHO gave this ‘non-working’ cellphone to Amanda Marsh… or if it ever did enter the official ‘chain of evidence’.

    One thing you can be sure of… ‘non-working’ probably does NOT mean ‘melted’.
    I doubt that anyone would have given a totally ‘melted’ hunk of plastic back to Amanda Marsh.

    ** CORY MOSER SAYS 25 TO 30 FIREFIGHTERS ‘SPENT THE NIGHT’
    ** AT THE BOULDER SPRINGS RANCH… AND THEY FORMED A ‘PACT’
    ** TO NEVER TALK ABOUT WHAT WENT ON THAT NIGHT.

    Cory Moser ( Prescott FF who was Willis TFLD1 and ‘right-hand-man’ that day on the north side of the fire ) granted an exclusive interview for the anniversary.

    In the VIDEO ( link will follow this message ) he says that he, himself, eventually DID go down to the south end of the fire and that he and up to 25 or 30 firefighters ‘spent the night’ out near the deployment site and were ‘awake all night’ apparently doing things like putting BOTH tarps AND American flags all over the deployment site hours before the YCSO police investigators ever got there.

    He also said something very strange to the reporter.

    He says that ALL of the firefighters who were ‘out there’ all night long near the deployment site formed a PACT amongst themselves to NEVER talk about what they were doing out there all night long.

    ** PRESCOTT APPEARS TO HAVE MADE A DEAL WITH ATTORNEYS FOR
    ** THE FAMILIES TO NOT CONTEST ASHCRAFT BENEFITS IN EXCHANGE
    ** FOR NOT BEING NAMED IN ANY LAWSUITS.

    Yesterday morning… at about 6:00 AM… the Prescott Daily Courier publshed an
    article ( link will be posted ) that says the Prescott City Council will review their decision
    to contest benefits for Andrew Ashcraft.in just a few days.

    The article contains interviews with Prescott City attorneys and the attorneys representing
    the families and they all acknowledge that up until June 20… a ‘deal’ was being actively
    discussed for the City of Prescott to NOT contest Ashcraft’s benefits so long as Prescott
    was not named in any ongoing lawsuits coming from family members.

    ** JULIANN ASCHCRAFT ( AND THE OTHER FAMILY MEMBERS )
    ** SAY THEY ‘STILL NEED TO KNOW THE WHOLE TRUTH’.

    A surprising number of family members granted full ‘interviews’ for the first anniversary.

    Juliann Ashcraft herself summarized all their feelings at this point.

    Station KESQ did an interview with Juliann Ashcraft.

    From the video / article ( link will be posted )…

    At 4:45 p.m., firefighters across the country and in the Coachella Valley took
    a moment of silence to honor the fallen heroes.

    “We’ve also taken the time to discuss the tragedy … and some of the lessons
    we can learn from that and how we can improve our delivery of services,
    and our response to wildfires,” said Griggs.

    The deaths sparked many questions, which are still unanswered to this day.

    “The thing I need to know most to heal are ANSWERS,” said Juliann Ashcraft,
    widow of hotshot Andrew Ashcraft. “I need the TRUTH. I need to know WHY my
    husband didn’t come home. I need to know WHY he died in that fire.”

    More later…

    • Sitta says

      Re: Eric Marsh’s cell phone

      I interpreted “non-working phone” to mean his personal cell (as opposed to his PFD-supplied cell phone). I hadn’t understood “non-working” to mean condition. Interesting.

      • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

        Marsh did not have a ‘PFD supplied’ cellphone, like Darrell Willis did. Marsh was simply receiving a stipend of about $37 per month to cover the costs of using one ( of two? ) of his personal phones for job related things. ADOSH knew this. They requested cellphone records from Prescott for BOTH Willis AND Marsh. Prescott supplied all of Willis’ records but Prescott attorneys told ADOSH that they would have to contact Amanda Marsh about Eric’s cell records. We now learn that Amanda had left the country. She was in Turkey.

        • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

          Followup… it was actually a ‘dodge’ on the part of the Prescott attorneys to ‘punt’ ADOSH off to Amanda Marsh. With a ‘stipend’ being paid for the phone… any employer has the right to request / obtain cell records for that employee’s phone directly from the carrier.

        • Sitta says

          D’oh. I should have remembered that Marsh had a stipend, not a company phone. Thanks for clearing that up.

          • Bob Powers says

            WTKTT
            There is so much destroyed when a accident scene is destroyed by people thinking they are helping. The immediate ceiling off of the site by professionals and no one connected to them or the fire left to secure the site from all. If this had been a Federal fire no one but fire fatalities investigators along with the Sheriff would have been allowed near the site.
            That is standard procedure. A really lot of information was lost that day because of the way the scene and the evidence was handled. by people that did not know what was important. As such there is a lot we will fail to learn from the entrapment.

      • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

        Reply to Sitta post on July 1, 2014 at 8:44 am

        >> Sitta said…
        >> I interpreted “non-working phone” to mean his personal cell (as opposed
        >> to his PFD-supplied cell phone). I hadn’t understood “non-working”
        >> to mean condition. Interesting.

        You might actually be right. If Marsh really did ‘always carry two phones’,
        then the phrase ‘non-working’ *MIGHT* actually mean the only phone that
        Amanda got back was the ‘personal’ one. It’s possible, I suppose….

        …but I don’t know which scenario is more ‘disturbing’…

        1) ‘Non-working phone’ mean Marsh only had ONE phone that day and SOMEONE ( Who? ) go it back to her somehow without it ever having
        gone through the YCSO police official ‘chain of evidence’. WHO would
        do that… and ( more importantly ) WHY? The YCSO investigators made it
        absolutely clear that cellphones were of the HIGHEST priority in their
        investigation… so who would then keep such an important piece of evidence
        ‘outside’ the ‘evidence chain’… and for what ulterior motives?

        2) ‘Non-working phone’ means Marsh WAS carrying TWO phones and SOMEONE ( again, Who? ) made sure she got his ‘personal’ one back. Whether that now means that it WAS ‘in working order’ would just be the next mystery…

        …but if (2)… then WHERE is the OTHER PHONE?

        WHO decided to ‘keep it’ even though only a ‘stipend’ was being paid for it and even that ‘other’ phone should have been ‘returned’ to Amanda Marsh… and why would NEITHER of these phones seem to have ever entered the official YCSO police investigator’s ‘chain of evidence’.?

        Now that Amanda is known to have at least ONE ( or perhaps the ONLY ) phone that Eric was using that day… and she is now in a position to talk about June 30, 2013 in a more open manner… we will find out more ( Like WHO gave it to her and WHEN ).

        • Marti Reed says

          From what I’ve seen, the whole YCSO “chain of evidence” narrative/mythology/whatever line is bogus. There was absolutely nothing to it, except for a bunch of words.

          • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

            Until the coroner issued their ‘official’ report on the actual cause of death for ALL 19 of those men… then for all intents and purposes… it WAS a ‘crime scene’ and is always treated that way… and all the standard rules of evidence collection applied and were in full legal force.

            It was DURING that time ( before the Coroner’s report was issued ) that (apparently) a lot of this evidence ‘went missing’.

            That’s pretty serious…. and some pretty serious ‘impeding an investigation’ or ‘tampering with evidence’ charges could be brought against anyone who was REMOVING things from that site and NOT handing them over to the police.

    • Sitta says

      Just watched Amanda Marsh’s video. It struck me as very brave and thoughtful, with some good advice for all of us at the end. I should have been more aware of how intrusive the publicity was/is for the survivors, but I suppose I thought that Yarnell was largely forgotten outside of the fire fighting community.

      • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

        Yarnell was ( as Gary Olsen pointed out many times ) the first major WFF fatality incident of the TwitBook age. Of course it ‘went viral’. Of course Amanda was ‘recognized’ even in Turkey. To think that wasn’t going to happen was just simply unrealistic. Perhaps that is yet another lesson that needs to sink in for all firefighters and anyone else on the public payroll and actively engaged in the ‘hero” business. The world is a smaller place… and the cameras are EVERYWHERE now. If you look at just the collection of photos and videos from June 30, 2013 coming from firefighters alone you see the new TwitBook generation ‘doing what they do” and photo/video documenting their lives. That isn’t going to change. So anyone in the ‘hero’ business these days ( and yes… their loved ones as well ) needs to be fully aware that nowadays… CELEBRITY status ( wanted or not ) is often just one Tweet or one free YouTube video clip away. The ‘world’ is ( quite literally ) ‘watching’ now.

      • Marti Reed says

        I was really really moved by Amanda’s video. So courageous, so honest, so powerfully articulated, and so hopeful.

        As someone who graduated from Prescott College and has served as sort of a “field mentor” for several of their students in New Mexico, I am inspired by her decision to work on a PhD there on dealing with grief, with a particular focus on those who have to do it “in the limelight,” so to speak.

        Our society doesn’t deal at all well with death and grief, much less when it involves a public event. My brother died in such a public event (altho much smaller but still really so for its time), and that public-ness added to the dysfunctionality of my family’s aftermath.

        I agree objectively with WTKTT’s statement about how this is where we are in the age of the Internet. But…..on the other hand……

        It was so important when the helmet-cam video was released in December. But, all things considered, could that have waited until January??? I was in quite a bit of agony about that.

        I think it’s really a challenge to discern how to write what we see, honestly, via the evidence, and yet be still conscious of and sensitive to the feelings of the family members. I really believe they should be our allies, and we should be theirs, even if that is really really difficult. We all need the truth, even if it’s hard. But I believe it’s in all our best interests, all things considered, to try to not be brutal in that quest.

        And we still don’t have the truth. The truth is still being hidden. For all kinds of various personal and institutional reasons. How do we ascertain how to access that truth while also respecting the dignity and reality of the central characters and their beloveds?

        I really don’t know. And it may be that Amanda Marsh will be able to turn on her flashlight in the smoke and mist and darkeness of all of this and help us all begin to discern a path.

  11. calvin says

    The comment posted by Robert at Wildfire Today * What have we learned from Yarnell* should be read by all followers of Yarnell here at IM

    Thanks Robert! Many thanks!

    • Bob Powers says

      Yes I read it. Doable should always be done with safety in place
      LCES—A simple lookout could have averted the whole incident.

  12. I agree with Bob Powers says

    I will not be here 6-30-14 and today at the Yarnell Memorial I met some real fine folks—firefighters- just the best people and saw Holly Neill— I left the Memorial after a short bit to see Doug and see if I can peak out on his property to where the back burn area was suppose to happen and until I review the photos and videos again after sitting on top of Doug’s area—I just cannot conceive it so PLEASE I ask all people that have photos and videos from 6-30-14 lawyered up or not SHOW THE RIGHT PEOPLE and that are investigative firefighters who feel as STRONGLY as me that the SAIR and the recent video on youtube by Mike Dudley just does a great disservice of the men and I am not wanting to think there was a back burn until you all realize YOUR information MATTERS!!!! Any media can write what they want but its YOUR information NEEDED to properly assess the YHF so PLEASE share—

    Oh my it was hard to meet one person today who knew one of the GMHS dearly and I don’t want to get into but it was eery for me yet I understand WHY God led it that way- just so torn up this weekend with the losses, seeing Yarnell faces and Sonny/my properties in Vernon still in threat of loss—but AH is ok.

    Also I miss my hiking pal. He seems so far away. I am going again to Glen Ilah and Yarnell tomorrow then to the Prescott 19 memorial at 4pm….it is just too hard to see the t-shirts sales and crap like that on this kind of weekend—seems insensitive but remember I am born July 1st so I am the extra-sensitive kind—keep you posted if I learn anything.

  13. Bob Powers says

    I would like to remember the Granit Mountain Hotshots tomorrow.
    I am asking all here to have a silent remembrance of the crew and make no comments here
    from midnight tonight till midnight tomorrow night 24 hours on June 30th.
    I plan to do just that. Remember their families on this first year, may they rest in peace.

    • Joy A Collura agrees with Bob Powers says

      I will not be here 6-30-14 and today at the Yarnell Memorial I met some real fine folks—firefighters- just the best people and saw Holly Neill— I left the Memorial after a short bit to see Doug and see if I can peak out on his property to where the back burn area was suppose to happen and until I review the photos and videos again after sitting on top of Doug’s area—I just cannot conceive it so PLEASE I ask all people that have photos and videos from 6-30-14 lawyered up or not SHOW THE RIGHT PEOPLE and that are investigative firefighters who feel as STRONGLY as me that the SAIR and the recent video on youtube by Mike Dudley just does a great disservice of the men and I am not wanting to think there was a back burn until you all realize YOUR information MATTERS!!!! Any media can write what they want but its YOUR information NEEDED to properly assess the YHF so PLEASE share—

      Oh my it was hard to meet one person today who knew one of the GMHS dearly and I don’t want to get into but it was eery for me yet I understand WHY God led it that way- just so torn up this weekend with the losses, seeing Yarnell faces and Sonny/my properties in Vernon still in threat of loss—but AH is ok.

      Also I miss my hiking pal. He seems so far away. I am going again to Glen Ilah and Yarnell tomorrow then to the Prescott 19 memorial at 4pm….it is just too hard to see the t-shirts sales and crap like that on this kind of weekend—seems insensitive but remember I am born July 1st so I am the extra-sensitive kind—keep you posted if I learn anything.

  14. mike says

    In the 6/26 article by Fernanda Santos in the NYT, she states the lawsuits of the 12 families specifically reference a back burn by CYFD firefighters that may have trapped the GMHS. I have not looked yet at the actual suits to see if there is more there. Apparently though, this may become an issue. This may explain why the CYFD is named in the suit (also Todd Abel works for CYFD). Hall, Shumate and Abel were all named in the suit, however Darrell Willis (as well as the City of Prescott) were not.

    • mike says

      I read the lawsuit. Says they recently discovered evidence of this and need to investigate further. Basically reserves the right to make this claim. Apparently does involve specifically the CYFD, not some property owner.

      • Bob Powers says

        My main conclusion on a back burn or burn out.
        If it was in the city of Yarnell or glen ilah it probably would not have affected the main fire moving WNW across the brush. no one would have been out in the brush setting back fires. While the could have been doing burn outs in town to protect individual structures. It would have been ill advised with the erratic winds.. Again the burnouts should not have affected the main fire and would have been short runs with in the towns them selves if such fires occurred. The main fire was already well established and spotting so other set fires would have had little effect on the main fire at that time.
        My observations we will have to see what the facts are.

        • Joy A Collura says

          My main conclusion on a back burn or burn out.
          If it was in the city of Yarnell or glen ilah ANGLES SHOWN TO US WHERE BETWEEN SESAME AND SHRINE OUT BY BALUCO AREA RIGHT BEFORE MAUGHAN AREA NEXT TO HELMS AS WELL AS ACROSS THE HWY 89 NEAR THE RANCH HOUSEit probably would not have affected the main fire moving WNW across the brush. THE MAIN FIRE WAS SEPARATE ACCOUNT IN WHAT WE WERE SHOWN AND NOT NEAR THE MAIN FIREno one would have been out in the brush setting back fires.IN GOD’S TIME PEOPLES ACCOUNTS MAY BE SHOWN PUBLICLY BUT FOR NOW I JUST LAY LOW AND LET GOD HANDLE THIS UNTIL THE PEOPLE COME OUT WITH THE VIDEOS AND PHOTOS ( I CAME OUT FROM DAY ONE WITH MINE AND CAN JUST HOPE THE REST DO TOO FREELY) BUT AGAIN I WILL NOT BE SHOCKED OR SURPRISED BY ANY NEW REVELATION OF A BACK BURN AND WHEN I HIKED WITH SANTOS THAT LADY HAD THE HEART FOR THE GMHS AND SEEING THIS FROM A RELIGIOUS CULTURE AND SHE EVEN WENT AND PAID FOR FIREFIGHTING TRAINING—SHE REALLY HAS GONE DEEP INTO LEARNING IT ALL—FINE WOMAN. I ADORE HER STYLE AND LIFE HISTORY AND DRIVE- While the could have been doing burn outs in town to protect individual structures. It would have been ill advised with the erratic winds..AMEN THERE Again the burnouts should not have affected the main fire and would have been short runs with in the towns them selves if such fires occurred. The main fire was already well established and spotting so other set fires would have had little effect on the main fire at that time.YES BUT WAS IT FACTUAL THAT THE MAIN FIRE KILLED THE 19 OR ONE SET SEPARATE—THAT IS THE CONCERN ALOT OF LOCALS WHO WERE THERE SAY—
          My observations we will have to see what the facts areIN GOD’S TIME!

            • joy a collura says

              Bob Powers says

              June 28, 2014 at 3:21 pm

              Joy
              I would suggest that people mistook spot fires for set backfires. we will have to see
              —- reply: it is possible yet there is photos/videos with equipment as I have stated here before that these accounts need to be public to properly assess it being I am not a firefighter and a firefighter can explain the vehicles/equipment. simple. SHOW the public the photos and videos so people can properly assess this YHF!

              • Bob Powers says

                Yes it is hard to comment on something we are not looking at to evaluate it.
                Back burns in town on specific pieces of property would I do not believe affect the main fire out in the brush nor would there be any reason to back fire with no other reason than the protection of structures or equipment. I don’t believe regular fire personnel would just start lighting fires without some goal and with no direct orders.
                To light fires to protect houses would also put other houses in danger so still makes no sense to me. The men and equipment could again be putting out a spot fire rather than lighting a fire just a thought.

                • Joy A Collura says

                  for an example—the one photo/video and that person knows who they are— they are on the hill next to the Ranch House with a torch lit and fire in background and when we were in evacuation we were told the fire jumped the highway but in the past annual people have shown us so many accounts and there is a photo/video out there that shows the fire did not jump the highway and yet it is not in any reports about that back burn and as well that burn took out homes—so I just have to keep laying low and be patient that in His time the stuff finally surfaces so people can FINALLY properly assess this fire-

                  • Bob Powers says

                    Again hard to say the person with the torch could have been waiting for the fire to get close to the highway to back burn and hold it to one side of the highway.
                    Again a very critical use of fire against fire in a structure area a highly questionable decision. If that is what was happening. Definitely should have been investigated by one of the 2 teems another misstep that could have given clarity. The pictures might help to tie down the crew and what was going on location and other facts. It is very interesting. Again in town and firing back into the fire would not effect the location GM was at. I would be more concerned with any kind of a back fire at the Bolder springs ranch that would have been critical. No such info has turned up on that so far.

    • Joy A. Collura says

      This is what I was saying Mike—I have seen things others have not so like I stated to Bob Powers I would not be surprised to see this surface—
      I have not heard from Santos in a few month—Hope to see her this weekend if she comes up-

      She along with John MacLean/Holly Neill have some very good solid sources.

      Sonny- about our 3 properties— the fire is under 10 miles away now and and there is 0% containment. Because of what happened at Yarnell last year, they are keeping everything really hush hush and they have sent an insane amount of resources out here to fight this thing. Hopes are high!!!!! Absolutely crazy that this is all going on on the anniversary of last years tragedy. So scary!!

      Willis told me it began on the reservation but no source to how yet-

    • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

      Reply to mike post on June 28, 2014 at 5:40 am

      >> mike said…
      >> Hall, Shumate and Abel were all named in the suit, however
      >> Darrell Willis (as well as the City of Prescott) were not.

      What is really *odd* about these ‘new filings’ is not simply that the City of Prescott and its employees ( Willis, Marsh, Steed ) are no longer being mentioned as direct ‘defendants’…

      The ‘new filings actually go OUT OF THEIR WAY to establish that not only was there no wrong-doing or negligence on the part of the two City of Prescott employees ( Marsh and Steed ) who led the other 17 employees under their care to their deaths..or on the part of their direct supervisor(s) ( Willis, others ) responsible for their training and their ‘culture of decision making’… the new filings actually say there was ‘total competence’ at all times… even up to the moment of death.

      That is the exact polar opposite of what the original ‘notice of claims’ ( from the same attorneys ) were trying to establish.

      Somehow… that smells of a ‘deal’ made with the City of Prescott.

      In cases like this… it is POSSIBLE that the City of Prescott reached its own ‘back-room’ deal with the attorneys representing the families who filed the original ‘wrongful death’ claims.

      As part of that deal… one of the ‘action items’ could have been the promise of certain statements like the ones we now see appearing in the re-filed petition(s) that basically ABSOLVES the City of Prescott ( and its employees working the Yarnell Fire and their inline supervisors ) of any hint of negligence.

      It’s possible. Happens all the time in cases like this.

      If there was no such ‘deal’ made with the City of Prescott… then the ‘turn around’ as represented by these new ‘statements’ is rather unexplainable.

      There is even MORE actual ‘evidence’ now than there was back in December when the ‘wrongful death’ notice of claims were originally filed that these City of Prescott employees ( Marsh and Steed ) WERE intentionally dis-regarding the rules of their profession AND the safety of the 17 men under their care in the pursuit of their own agenda(s)… and even more evidence now that this sort of of ‘bad decisions with good outcomes’ behavior and the pursuit of personal agendas while ‘on the job’ was not all that unusual for this City of Prescott organization.

      The case for ‘negligence’ on their part ( and, hence… direct responsibility going back to their own employers… the City of Prescott ) has never been stronger… so for the newly filed ‘suits’ to ‘not go there’ without there being some sort of ‘back-room deal’ in place to explain it would be a real mystery.

      Here is just one article that appeared about the newly re-filed suits and some ‘cuts’ from them that show the complete ‘turnaround’ with regards to City of Prescott employees Marsh and Steed… and their direct supervisors and employers… Darrell Willis and the City of Prescott itself…

      Prescott Valley News
      State of Arizona Sued by Yarnell Residents, Granite Mountain Hotshots Praised

      http://www.prescottvalleyenews.com/news/current-news/state-of-arizona-sued-by-yarnell-residents-granite-mountain-hotshots-praised

      From the article…
      _______________________________________________________________

      The lawsuit starts out by stating:

      “1. From June 28 to June 30, 2013, the Arizona State Forestry Division tried to contain, manage, and suppress the Yarnell Hill fire. It failed miserably.

      “2. Because of the Arizona State Forestry Division’s negligence, 19 firefighters died and much of Yarnell was destroyed.”

      The lawsuit continues to detail a perspective of the failure of the State of Arizona to effectively manage the fire. On page 5, however, the tone changes:

      “8. The brightest spot in this story of incompetent mismanagement was the Grainte Mountain Interagency Hotsot Crew’s unselfish, exemplary and courageous performance.

      “9. When most units under the Arizona State Forestry Division’s inept direction were doing little to contain the fire and to protect Yarnell, the Granite Mountain Interagency Hotshot Crew tried to initiate a burn-out and to protect Yarnell, the Granite Mountain Interagency Hotshot Crew tried to initiate a burn-out and tried to construct and improve firebreaks to contain the southern and eastern part of the Yarnell Hill Fire…

      “16. Despite getting no reliable information, support, and protection from the Arizona State Forestry Division just when it was most neded, the Granite Mountain Interagency Hotshot Crew continued to try to contain the fire and to protect themselves and Yarnell’s homes and people.

      “17. In fact, the Granite Mountain Interagency Hotshot Crew was moving into a new position where it could contributer its skills and efforts to containing the Yarnell Hill Fire when the fire unexpectedly advanced into its location.

      “18. Even then the members of the Granite Mountain Interagency Hotshot Crew did not shirk their duty and did not panic.

      “19. They prepared an area for their fire shelters and deployed them.

      “20. The Granite Mountain Interagency Hotshot Crew, unlike the Arizona State Forestry Division, consistently displayed exemplary competence, dedication and bravery.

      “21. Unlike the Division Zulu Supervisor and unlike the Air Tactical Group Supervisor, the members of the Granite Mountain Interagency Hotshot Crew did not abandon their duty. With the exception of one lookout, who himself was nearly cut off from rescue and killed, the entire Granite Mountain Interagency Hotshot Crew died in the unselfish service of others, including in the unselfish service of the grateful people of Yarnell.

      “22. If the Arizona State Forestry Division had competently managed, contained and suppressed the Yarnell Hill fire, no member of the Grainte Mountain Interagency Hotshot Crew would have died – and Yarnell and its people wouldhave escaped devastation.”

      _______________________________________________________________

      So even though there is now just as much evidence to prove that City of Prescott employee/supervisors Eric Marsh and Jesse Steed WERE guilty of ‘gross negligence that day’as there is now new evidence to prove that DIVSZ Rance Marquez was NOT…

      …Marsh and Steed get a ‘free pass’ now in the new filing… but Marquez is still getting thrown under the bus and is still ‘the bad guy’ who ‘broke the rules of his profession’ and ‘abandoned his position without properly notifying others of his whereabouts’ ( Marsh and Steed certainly did BOTH of those things ).

      It’s all a little ‘over the top’ in its ‘absolution’ being granted to Marsh, Steed ( and, consequently, the City of Prescott ). Almost as if the lawyers were being TOLD what to say by the City of Prescott itself to fend off further litigation(s) in exchange for ‘the deal’ that might have been made.

      Very strange.

      If that really is what is ‘going down’ ( a negotiated ‘deal’ between the planitiff’s lawyers and the City of Prescott itself )… then it is also *most* probably one of those things where NO ONE will EVER really know ‘the details’. As much as the ‘deal’ could stipulate that further litigation include statements like the ones we now see above ‘absolving’ the City of Prescott and its employees ( Willis, Marsh, Steed, etc. ) from any suggestions of ‘negligence’… there could be further stipulations that NO ONE ever DISCUSS the terms of whatever ‘deal’ was reached between the lawyer’s and the City of Prescott.

      If it turns out that *is* what we see happening now… you really can’t blame the Prescott City Manager and City attorney(s) for trying to cut *SOME* kind of ‘deal’ here and remove themselves from the litigation(s). Worst-case-scenario to avoid would be having a jury decide in favor of the plaintiffs and ALSO decide to double or triple the financial penalties.

      ALL the other defendants in the original ‘wrongful death’ notice of claims can absorb tremendous financial hits… but it was the City of Prescott that stood the best chance of showing up for SALE on Ebay if they lost any/all of the lawsuits.

      • Bob Powers says

        Of course if it goes to court the states side could provide a different conclusion of facts. The families suing would not want the City and there employees put in a bad light. Making the crew and supervisors heroes is an attempt to make it hard for the Defense to attach blame to them after creating sympathy with the jury.
        some of what I learned being a court bailiff for 8 years.

        • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

          Mr. Powers… see post above about ‘new things’ that emerged in articles/interviews published the day of the 1 year anniversary.

          Early in the morning on June 30, 2014… an article was published that says the attorneys for the City of Prescott HAD been ‘talking’ to the attorneys for the families about a ‘deal’..

          The City of Prescott hasn’t decided yet whether they are going to challenge/appeal the decision that Andrews Ashcraft deserves full benefits..

          The article suggests that the ‘deal’ that was being discussed as late as June 20 ( last week ) was that if the families would agree to remove Prescott from defendants in the wrongful death suits… then Prescott *MIGHT* decide to not ‘challenge’ the decision about Ashcraft’s benefits.

          The suits have been filed.
          They HAVE ‘removed the City of Prescott’ from the list of ‘defendants’.
          Whether that is a direct result of this ‘deal’ that was being discussed remains to be seen.

          The City of Prescott is expected to decide whether to ‘challenge’ the Ashcraft’s benefits ruling within the next few days.

          I suppose we will know more then whether there really is some ‘quid pro quo’ going on here.

          • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

            Scratch the comment above. Moments after I posted it… TTWARE posted his message saying the Prescott City Council did, in fact, vote TODAY to go ahead and contest ( appeal ) the Andrew Ashcraft benefits.

            So either there never was any ‘deal’ in place about that… or we are looking at one of the biggest legal back-stabs in history.

            I think it must be the former.

  15. WantsToKnowTheTruth says

    **
    >> Reply to Bob Powers post on June 27, 2014 at 6:52 am
    >>
    >> Bob Powers said…
    >>
    >> If I Am not mistaken Mcdonough Called Marsh on the intra
    >> crew to tell him the trucks were at the restaurant.
    >> Cant remember the exact words.

    You are not mistaken.

    See below for ‘the exact words’ from Brendan himself in his various testimony and video interviews.

    Both the official SAIR and the WFAR Yarnell Hill Fire reports state unequivocally that Brendan McDonough did, in fact, hear Eric Marsh and Jesse Steed ‘discussing their options about leaving the black’ over the Granite Mountain intra-crew radio frequency. ( See below ).

    As for when Brendan made his radio call ‘telling them the vehicles were now SAFE’…

    In BOTH his ABC NEWS interview with Brian Ross AND his interview with author ( and former Hotshot ) Kyle Dickman… Brendan says he called ‘his captain’ Steed to tell him the vehicles were ‘safe’ AFTER they were already ‘moved’ out of the Sesame area and PARKED in a (new) safe location.

    It is not clear from the either interview whether this meant Brendan called them from the Shrine area where the GM vehicles were initially ‘moved’ to after leaving the threatened location in the Sesame area… or whether PARKED meant when they were all finally moved to the Ranch House Restaurant.

    However.. in his hour-long video interview with the PRESCOTT DAILY COURIER… Brendan states that he made this ‘call’ to Captain Jesse Steed telling him the ‘vehicles were safe’ only AFTER all the GM vehicles had arrived all the way down at ( in Brendan’s own words ) “the cafe'”. ( The Ranch House Restaurant ).

    NOTE: It has since been determined that if Brendan really did make a radio call out to Jesse Steed to report that the GM vehicles were now ‘safe at the Ranch House Restaurant’… then that radio call had to have taken place almost exactly at the same time ( 1639 ) that Jesse Steed was making his first MAYDAY call on the Air-To-Ground channel.

    In BOTH of the video-taped interviews ( ABC NEWS and the PRESCOTT DAILY COURIER )… it is also made clear that Brendan was talking with Steed over his radio WHILE he was riding with Frisby in the UTV and AFTER the reported discussions between Frisby and Marsh/Steed about ‘moving the vehicles’… which means Brian Frisby MUST have handed Brendan his portable radio BACK after talking to to Marsh/Steed.

    So even BEFORE McDonough was dropped off by Frisby at the GM Superintendent truck and now had full access to that vehicle’s onboard radio ( and the GM intra-crew frequency ) Brendan had his portable back from Frisby which Brendan has testified to ADOSH had the GM intra-crew frequency set as its PRIORITY channel that day so that Brendan would not MISS any/all traffic on that frequency.

    ** SAIR – PDF page 30 ( of 122 pages )…

    BR Supt drops GM Lookout off at the Granite Mountain IHC Supt truck at about 1555 and then heads around the corner to get some of his crew to help move the Granite Mountain crew carriers. On the Granite Mountain intra-crew frequency, GM Lookout hears DIVS A and GM Capt talking about their options, whether to stay in the black or to come up with a plan to move.

    ** Wildland Fire Associates Report (WFAR) – PDF page 15 ( of 73 pages )…

    At 1555, fire was burning along the ridge north of Yarnell. The SPGS1 lost use of an air-to-ground radio frequency, and communication was interrupted. The BRIHC Superintendent dropped the GM Lookout off at the GMIHC Superintendents truck. The GMIHC crew carriers were moved. On the GMIHC intracrew frequency, GM Lookout heard the DIVS A and GMIHC Captain discussing the options of whether to stay in the black or to move (5).

    WFAR Footnote (5) says: From ADOSH Interview with GM Lookout.

    ** SAIT Yarnell Investigation Notes ( YIN ) – PDF page 42 ( of 60 pages )…

    They ( Brian Frisby and Brendan McDonough ) got back to trucks seem a little more hurried at this point. Blue Ridge supt is going to get some drivers. I ( Brendan speaking ) started the truck turned on the AC and made sure the truck radios were on the right Channel and volume UP.

    ** KYLE DICKMAN ARTICLE BASED ON INTERVIEW WITH BRENDAN MCDONOUGH

    Outside Magazine
    Article Title: The Yarnell Hill Fire
    By: Kyle Dickman ( former Type 1 Hotshot )
    Published September 17, 2013

    http://www.outsideonline.com/outdoor-adventure/YarnellFire.html

    From the article ( based on face-to-face interviews with Brendan McDonough )…

    On the morning of June 30, all 20 members of Prescott, Arizona’s Granite Mountain
    Hotshots headed into the mountains to protect the small town of Yarnell from an
    advancing blaze. Later that day, every man but one was dead. Through interviews
    with family, colleagues, and the lone survivor ( Brendan McDonough ), a former hotshot
    pieces together their final hours—and the fatal choices that will haunt firefighting forever.


    Donut drove Eric’s supe truck to the edge of Yarnell. There, he and the Blue Ridge
    hotshots joined a few engine companies who were wetting and widening a contingency
    dozer line—a last effort to stop the fire from burning straight down Highway 89.

    Donut radioed to Steed. “Buggies are PARKED.. I’m with Blue Ridge. If you guys need
    anything, let me know.”

    “Copy. I’ll see you soon.” It was the last time Donut spoke to Steed.

    ** ABC NEWS INTERVIEW WITH BRENDAN MCDONOUGH

    Brendan McDonough was interviewed in-person ( inside the Granite Mountain 7 Station building in Prescott ) by ABC News’ investigative reporter Brian Ross on August 7, 2013.

    ( NOTE: The actual link to the ABC interview is in a ‘Reply’ down below to prevent this posting from violating the one-link-per-posting rule and fall into ‘moderation’ ).

    From the (video) interview…

    Brendan McDonough: At that point… I could see the fire already… instead of moving
    NORTH… it started moving SOUTH.

    Brian Ross: Toward you?

    Brendan McDonough: Yea. Instead of BACKING towards us… it was… it had already
    become a HEAD.

    Brian Ross: Racing toward you.

    Brendan McDonough: Yes.

    Brian Ross: So… they could see this as well?

    Brendan McDonough: My-hmm. Yes sir… and… they said “If you need to get outta there go ahead and get outta there. We can see what’s goin’ on… we want you to be safe, too.” I just wanted to keep it short and simple… “If you need anything, CALL me. I’m on the other end of the fire. Whatever you need, I’m here.The buggies are PARKED”… then he said “Ok… see ya soon.”

    Brian Ross: Who was that?

    Brendan McDonough: Uh… Jesse Steed. My captain. I said “Allright… I’ll see ya soon.” He said “Ok”.

    * PRESCOTT DAILY COURIER VIDEO INTERVIEW
    * WITH BRENDAN MCDONOUGH

    Prescott Daily Courier
    Brendan McDonough believes everything happens for a reason
    By: Joanna Dodder Nellans – 8/7/2013 6:00:00 AM

    Both parts of the video interview are posted along with the article…

    ( NOTE: The actual link to the PRESCOTT DAILY COURIER interview is in a ‘Reply’ down below to prevent this posting from violating the one-link-per-posting rule and fall into ‘moderation’ ).

    From video interview…

    I was spinning my weather… and… my captain had reached me on the radio saying that we were gonna expect 180 degree wind shift and that we could expect gusts up to 50 to 60 miles per hour… and… once I heard that I knew the fire was gonna change rapidly and he understood that too… and at that point I was closer to the fire than the crew was… the actual active fire.

    At that point I continued to spin my weather… and… my captain was heads up for what was goin’ on… and could see what was goin’ on… and could see me… and… as I looked back to see how they’re doing I turned around and I could already see that the wind had shifted… and it had met my trigger point to re-evaluate where I was and I needed to find a different position.

    So I relayed to my captain and my sup that I needed to find a different position to be a lookout at… and they told me that they… they could see what was coming… they could see the fire’s edge and they were aware of what was happening with the fire and where I was at… and how close I was.

    So I started making my way back into this road that the other hotshot crew had dropped me off on… on an ATV… and… soon as I arrive at this road I turn around and I look back at the fire and I can just see a huge… just the smoke building… and it startin’ to gain a lot of potential to move towards us.

    I, ah, relayed this information back to my captain and he… he told me… “No… I can see what’s goin’ on Brendan… just… make sure you’re safe… make sure everything’s good for you.”… and… I’m startin’ to walk down this road and I’m switchin’ over my radio to call the other hotshot crew if I can get a ride and… as soon as I’m in the process of tryin’ to talk to them they’re already right there around the corner ready to pick me up.

    So at that point I loaded my stuff up… and… as I’m loading my stuff up… I hand my radio to the… the sup off of the other hotshot crew and… he’s relaying information to my superintendent and captain about where our vehicles are parked, that they’re gonna move ‘em for us, that they have me with them… and it’s safer for me to go out with him, back to the vehicles, back to the main road in Yarnell than to try and meet up with them… and he relayed information on what the fire’s doing and kinda what their goal was.. and… just giving them as much information as he could… on what was goin’ on… and… at that point.. um… I was already in the ATV and we’re on our way and I’m just… on the radio… I tell… uh… my superintendent and captain that if they need anything, give me a call, and that I’ll see ‘em soon.

    We had arrived at the vehicles… and Blue Ridge hotshot crew… they helped us bump those vehicles around to a different side of the fire, in a safer area… um… for them to be in… and at that point… I was pretty much with them… and… I mean… in this job you’re supposed to always remain flexible… and… uh… when I had left… my position was compromised… and my safety… and my crew understood… and they were comfortable with me leaving knowing that they could see the fire… and… um…

    I mean… as any… any crew member they always wish they could be with their crew… those are the guys ya love and ya wanna work with… and… when I was with Blue Ridge I felt very comfortable, ya know. It was.. It was almost like being… ya know… with a… it was at home. Good feeling… um… but our goal was to prep a dozer line which means to get ready to burn it… possibly… so we were gonna clear out a lot of the fuels that’s on this line that a dozer has pushed… heavy equipment has pushed… and within minutes of getting there… uh… the fire activity was just picking up and keep picking up from when I had left… and… around that time… this had to been around 4… 4:15, 4:30 ish… I’m guessing… my times on that day are really hazy… um… we ended up going… they kinda pulled the resources off and the divisions and… jus cus of what was goin’ on and people on their own were doing it jus… wasn’t… uh… safe area… cus at that point when we had moved we were even closer to the fire… and…

    We pulled off, we PARKED at a CAFE’, ( the Ranch House Restaurant ) and during the time, ya know, told my superintendent and captain that we had the VEHICLES in a SAFE area… and… once again… if they needed anything just give me a call and I’ll see ‘em soon… and that’s the last time that I talked to ‘em.

    • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

      ** ABC NEWS INTERVIEW WITH BRENDAN MCDONOUGH

      Here is the link to the ABC NEWS interview quoted in the post above.
      It is posted down here because only one link is allowed per post or a comment
      will fall into ‘moderation’…

      Brendan McDonough was interviewed in-person by ABC News’
      investigative reporter Brian Ross on August 7, 2013.

      http://abcnews.go.com/Blotter/brendan-mcdonough-sole-survivor-arizona-hotshot-firefighting-tragedy/story?id=19881553&singlePage=true

    • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

      * PRESCOTT DAILY COURIER VIDEO INTERVIEW
      * WITH BRENDAN MCDONOUGH

      Here is the link to the PRESCOTT DAILY COURIER interview quoted in the post above.
      It is posted down here because only one link is allowed per post or a comment
      will fall into ‘moderation’…

      Prescott Daily Courier
      Brendan McDonough believes everything happens for a reason
      By: Joanna Dodder Nellans – 8/7/2013 6:00:00 AM

      NOTE: Both parts of the video interview are posted along with the article…

      http://dcourier.com/main.asp?SectionID=1&SubsectionID=1&ArticleID=122030

      • calvin says

        Also. Picture #219 of 220 from Rick Tham seems to have been taken before the Russ Reason Video. It also appears that the Russ Reason video actually captures Rick Tham driving by the Ranch House, Reason and the reporter walk behind Tham’s truck.

        Marti. Thanks for bringing my attention to Tham’s set of photos

        • Marto Reed says

          OK I found the photo. It’s actually Yarnell Hill Fire June 28-30 2013 271.jpg Great catch! It was so dark I hadn’t caught it.

          To me, the vehicles in the photo don’t sync with the vehicles in the video, either in the parking lot or passing by on the road. Especially the ones passing by. Which passing-by vehicle are you suggesting Rick Tham is driving?

          The photo is time-stamped 4:51:19 AM.

          When I was synching his photos of the big red truck (Musser’s.) at the mini-mart, since he took one with his iPhone and the rest with this Minolta, it looked to me like the Minolta has the correct time, just says AM instead of PM.

          To me it looks like the guy standing by the drivers side door has a blue helmet on.

          My comments are getting stuck in moderation and I can barely see the type in the comment box on my iPad.

          Thanks again for catching this!

        • Marti Reed says

          Test. I”ve been trying to post replies to this convo, but I keep first getting stuck in moderation, and then my posts don’t show up at all. Hello?????

      • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

        No. That has been an ‘ongoing task’ ( to come up with an exact time for that ) since it was first discovered in the ‘raw footage’ archive of the Arizona Republic.

        The AZREPUBLIC archive does not have a ‘download’ option… so that video can only be ‘screen recorded’ which doesn’t give you any original metadata.

        Only the AZREPUBLIC has the ‘original’ and would be able to extract any metadata from it… or check the logs to see if the camera ( or the operator ) recorded an exact time for this video.

        It’s down to pretty narrow timeframe, however.

        It was definitely AFTER Marty Cole ( the WHITE TACOMA with its door open ) arrived at the RHR… which is now predictable since we see Cole’s white Tacoma passing the Panebaker camera at a fixed time….

        …and it was definitely BEFORE the Blue Ridge crew was told to go back to the rear of the parking lot and away from the press…

        I actually think it was just moments after Marty Cole arrived at the RHR in his white Tacoma pickup.

        Also… if you look carefully while Russ Reason is being interviewed… a WHITE pickup passes behind him and is immediately followed by a large LIME-GREEN firetruck/engine with a BLM logo on the driver’s side door.

        These SAME TWO vehicles are also seen passing the Panebaker camera at the very start of the 1716 A2A video. They both ‘stuck together’ with the LIME GREEN engine following that white pickup all the way down to the RHR.

        Since the ‘travel’ time from the Panebaker camera down to the RHR was staying pretty consistent for all the vehicles seen passing it ( about 8 to 10 minutes to reach RHR from Panebaker camera setup because of smoke and road conditions at that time of the day )… then just based on that white pickup and the LIME GREEN engine passing behind Russ Reason while he is being interviewed it should be pretty easy to further nail down the exact time of the Russ Reason interview.

        That ‘orange glow’ seen over Russ Reason’s left shoulder during the interview has already been determined to be pretty much directly over the actual deployment site out there beyond the Boulder Springs Ranch. The ‘line of sight’ ( as the bird flies ) from where the camera was filming Reason directly out over the Boulder Springs Ranch matches exactly where that ‘orange glow’ is under the smoke cloud.

        There was a time when I thought the Russ Reason interview was taking place at the exact moment of the ‘burnover’ ( 4:42 to 4:45 PM ?? )…. but I’m not so sure about that anymore. It MAY have been just a few minutes after that ( 4:46 to 4:50 ?? ).

        However… it most certainly was ‘right around that time’.

        • calvin says

          Rick Tham image #199 appears to have bee take before the Reason video. The camper top back of the white Tacoma (Cole?) is open and someone is standing beside the driver door possibly speaking with the driver. Mcdonough?

          • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

            You are talking about the Rick Tham photo that he took while he was ‘stuck in traffic’ a few hundred feet north of the Ranch House Restaurant, right? It’s a very DARK photo that shows all the cars lined up in that ‘curve in the road’ just before the RHR?

            Yes… you are right.. it shows part of the RHR parking lot, Marty Cole’s White Tacoma seems to already be there and the ‘back of the camper top’ is, in fact, UP ( open ).

            But I’m not seeing a number of ‘199’ for that photo..

            The photo I’m seeing is the second to last one in the set and it
            has this full filename….

            “Yarnell Hill Fire june 28-30 2013 271” ( JPEG photo )

            Direct link to the photo I’m seeing…

            https://www.dropbox.com/sh/02ue6bnjp6nazkm/AAAa-lsvLUB16n0wjQpatZlPa/Photos%20and%20Video/Rick%20Tham%20Photos#lh:null-Yarnell%20Hill%20Fire%20june%2028-30%202013%20271.JPG

            There IS someone ‘standing by the open driver door’ of Marty Cole’s white Tacoma. It MAY be Brendan… but it also might just be Marty Cole himself.

            Extreme ehancement on that part of the picture becomes sort of a ‘Rosarch test’. One moment it looks like someone with short hair with his back to the camera talking to the driver in the Tacoma ( Possible Brendan? )… but if you blink twice… it then looks like someone with a mustache and a hat on FACING the camera ( Marty Cole has a mustache ).

            Other things to note in this photo…

            Yes.. it APPEARS as if the ‘reporter’ who is ABOUT to catch Russ Reason and ask him if he wants to be interviewed is already standing out there on Highway 89 and talking to people in their cars.

            It also appears as if the fellow just to her left standing on the shoulder of the road is the camera guy who will then be ‘shooting’ the Russ Reason video in just a few minutes.

            Also… we can finally see the LOGO on the passenger door of that ALL-RED pickup truck ( with flashing lights ) that also is seen in all of Tom Story’s photos. The door logo on the driver’s side is ‘blocked’ in all of the Tom Story photos but now… in this Rick Tham photo… we have a clear shot at seeing the logo on the OTHER ( passenger side ) door.

            It says “Wickenburg Fire” in GOLD letters.

            So that really is the same ALL-RED pickup seen parked earlier up at the ICP just west of the vehicles belonging to PNF ‘off the radar’ hires Jason Clawson, Aaron Hulburd and KC ‘Bucky’ Yowell.

            Best shot of it up that at the ICP is in that video filmed from that truck that was LEAVING the ICP and captured close-ups of all the vehicles parked up there more than an hour before the deployment.

            Question still is… WHO was actually DRIVING that ALL-RED pickup that says “Wickenburg Fire” in GOLD letters on the door(s)?

            Marti has floated the theory that OPS2 Paul Musser might have BORROWED this ALL-RED “Wickenburg Fire” pickup when he launched out onto the fire as the second fully-functi0ning Field OPS that day.

            I still think that is perfectly possible… especially since we now know that IS the same ALL-RED pickup down in the parking lot of the Ranch House Restaurant and the same vehicle where the Tom Story photos seem to indicate a ‘meeting’ was taking place and FFs ( including McDonough? ) all seem to be looking at a MAP.

            • calvin says

              The guy driving the red pick up appears to be the tall slim FF in the white helmet that was photographed earlier by Tham (gas station parking lot) when he was wearing a cowboy hat. Possibly the same cowboy hat seen on the dash of the red truck in the Reason video as well as in the Swartz photos from the Town of Yarnell folder.

              The #199 was the sequential order number, sorry for the confusion.

            • Marti Reed says

              OK now that I’ve determined I can FINALLY post from my computer but not my ipad, and now that I’ve lost five comments I made before, and now that I’m really tired and have turned off LIghtroom.

              And so I’ll turn Lightroom back on and post this before the silence-vigil I agree with Bob Powers we might choose to observe.

              I’m not seeing the photo even remotely synching with the video, (and I could be wrong) regarding either the vehicles in the parking lot or, even especially more, the vehicles passing by in the road.

              Which vehicle do you, Calvin, think Thams is driving in in the video?

              The photo is time-stamped 4:51:19 AM. When I was looking at his photos of the red truck (Musser’s?) at the Mini-Mart, of which he has several shots with this Minolta and one with an iphone 4s, it looked to me that the Minolta is pretty accurate except for the AM part.

              So if that’s the case, this photo would have been taken at 4:51, and given that I don’t see the sync between it and the video (please feel free to correct me) I’ve been estimating it was taken after the video.

              And I’ve been consumed with some classes for the past five days so haven’t been able to post until today. But I want to say, thank you to WTKTT for finding Todd Abel’s truck on his FB page. I spent quite awhile there, but wasn’t focused on the truck, because I was then just trying to figure out his face.

              The lateness of that truck passing by the Air2Air camera threw me. I really thought, via what Willis (and TBH some others) said, that Todd was at the RHR parking lot before Willis got there.

              And also, over the past several days, I’ve been still thinking the red truck in the parking lot was the Ponderosa one (with the white banner behind it) and not the Wickenberg (without the banner behind it). Will go back and look at these all some more tomorrow in LIghtroom where I can sometimes gain more clarity.

              But I may not post until Tuesday, because I’m in the mood to honor that silence.

              Also I agree, after reading a whole bunch of recent articles about the lawsuits, that they are written pretty “strangely,” all things considered. Much more strangely than I anticipated.

              • Marti Reed says

                And thank you Calvin for catching this photo. I had downloaded it but not really looked at in in relationship to the parking lot because it was so dark.

                Great Catch!!!

              • Marti Reed says

                And PS. AFter messing around with a bit in LIghtroom, I’m seeing someone in a blue helmet near the driver’s side window of Marty Cole’s truck.

              • Marti Reed says

                Including the fact that CYFD is targetted when PFD isn’t. I guess that’s because of the backfire possibility?

                But I’m wracking my brain and can find nothing in it that substantiates a charge that any of the three major CYFD players, Todd Abel, Gary Cordes, or Cougan Carothers, had anything to do with a backfire in the area that would have impacted this fire in this way.

                • Marti Reed says

                  And the CYFD engine, at the time involved, was up at the Youth Camp, if I recall correctly.

                  (I could be wrong, I’m just working out of my brain. But I’m pretty sure that’s correct)/

                  I really can’t recall anybody from CYFD on this fire being at the right place at the right time to have done a burnout that would have impacted this fire in this way.

                  • Marti Reed says

                    And the wording definitely throws Rance Marquez and Rory Collins (whom I’m po’d at for other reasons) totally under the bus in a really unjustifiable way, IMHO.

                    Where is this coming from????

                    • Bob Powers says

                      I agree with you Marti. Again if the Back Fires were in the Town of Yarnell they would have been short runs, if along the highway in town as joy said a picture across from the Restaurant showed that could have been done once the fire was close to keep it from jumping the highway.
                      Again though with all the houses that could have been affected along with fire personnel it just dose not seem some one would be doing back fires in town. We definitely need more info.

              • calvin says

                Rick Tham image #115, 122, 177, 215, and 216 seem to show parts of a dark red Toyota Tacoma that I think Tham was driving. It passes the camera at the beginning of the Reason video.

        • Joy A Collura says

          The Russ Reason timestamp of video–
          when I hiked with some reporter
          we ran into Russ and I know I posted this awhile back but Russ said quarter to 5 but the waitress said it was more like 5pm so that is as close as they could help—

          • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

            Thank you, Joy.

            That ‘timeframe’ is actually accurate. It WAS somewhere right in there and we are about to nail down EXACTLY when.

            I don’t think I ever really expected Mr. Reason to know exactly when he was giving that interview. The poor man had only moments before realized that he was losing his ‘paid for’ home… and everything he owned but what he was able to throw in his vehicle.

    • Bob Powers says

      Thanks WTKTT
      So was Dudley covering for what McDonough actually heard, or just not up to the facts.
      he seemed to be covering the investigation rather than allowing open discussion.
      I am wondering if any thing was cut from the videoed discussion. Like hard questions?
      Just my thoughts but it seemed to generic and non confrontational. A room full of wild land fire fighters would have asked some hard questions after some of Dudley’s statements.
      At least in my day we never pulled any punches.

      • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

        Reply to Bob Powers post on June 28, 2014 at 6:01 am

        >> Bob Powers said…
        >> So was Dudley covering for what McDonough actually heard,
        >> or just not up to the facts.

        Good question. I would say BOTH.

        For all we know… it is perfectly possible that during his interview with the SAIT investigators… they might have actually ASKED Brendan if he ‘heard them discussing their options’… but when Brendan said “Yes… I did”… that was the end of it. They might have actually MOVED ON in the interview and NEVER actually asked the obvious followup question “What did you hear, Brendan”?

        They might not have WANTED to know.

        It might have messed up their pre-determined narrative and they didn’t
        want that to happen.

        So they just published what Brendan said he said ( That he heard them ‘discussing their options about leaving the black’ )… and that was that.

        Even as I type these words I find it totally unbelievable that they would have NOT then asked Brendan what he really heard… but then again… my 92 year old grandmother could have done better interviews than these SAIT guys did so I suppose nothing would really surprise me there.

        IMPORTANT: Did you know that the ‘SAIT Investigation Notes’ for Brendan McDonough’s official interview with them are the ONLY ones that do NOT
        say WHO actually conducted the interview? It is VERY strange ( and suspicious ) that ONLY this one set of interview notes would not be saying WHO was conducting and/or present for that interview… when EVERY other set of interview notes does.

        ALSO: There is still a huge mystery surrounding this same statement in the ADOSH contracted Wildland Fire Associates Report. ( WFAR ).

        The WFAR has pretty much the same exact statement as the SAIR report about Brendan definitely ‘hearing them discussing their options about leaving the safe black’… but the WFAR report then has the ‘Footnote 5’ symbol at the end of the sentence.

        The WFAR ‘Footnote 5’ at the bottom of the page says this statement from Brendan about him definitely ‘hearing them discussing their options’ was ( quote ) “taken from ADOSH interview with Brendan McDonough”.

        However… NOWHERE in EITHER of the TWO interviews that ADOSH actually did with Brendan does he ever make such a statement. Incredibly… the ADOSH investigators didn’t even ask him about it. The closest we get in the ADOSH interviews is when they ask Brendan if… while moving the vehicles… he was then AWARE of ‘what the crew was doing or what their plans were’. Brendan hesitates and then doesn’t really answer the question. All he says in reply is… “That wasn’t RELAYED directly TO me”.

        That is a DODGE of the question. It is not a YES and it’s certainly not a NO.
        It’s Brendan saying that even if he did hear something… it wasn’t DIRECTED
        at him and it even seems like he’d been coached by his lawyer ( who was sitting right next to him during both ADOSH interviews ) to make that ‘legal’ distinction about what to talk about and what NOT to talk about. The ‘coaching’ seems to have been “only talk about radio traffic directly related to YOU and what YOU were doing… nothing else.”

        Incredibly… the ADOSH investigators took Brendan’s DODGE of the question as a valid answer and didn’t ‘follow up’ about it.

        Brendan repeats this ( apparent ) ‘only talk about radio traffic directed AT you’ coaching just a few moments later in his interview when Dave Larsen ( Rest in Peace ) then asks Brendan if he heard the ‘deployment radio traffic’ in real time.

        Brendan hesitates again… and then tries the same kind of ‘that wasn’t relayed to me’ dodge that he did a few moments before. Brendan refuses to answer with a simple YES or NO and says… “That was on the command channel”.

        This time… Dave Larsen catches the attempt to ‘dodge’ the question and he REPEATS ( and clarifies ) the question. Larsen asks Brendan again… “Yea… but did you HEAR any of that?”. Brendan hesitates again ( probably looked at his lawyer for a moment ) and then pretty much admits he DID hear the deployment traffic in real time that day.

        I only wish Larsen had done the same thing in the interview a few moments before when Brendan ‘dodged’ the question about whether he heard them ‘discussing their options’. I wish Larsen had done the same ‘followup’ at that time and said “Yes… Brendan… I know that conversation was not being RELAYED specifically TO you… I am asking you if you HEARD any of it?”.

        Anyway… my POINT was that the ADOSH contracted WFAR report has the same claim in it that the SAIR does about Brendan ‘definitely hearing Marsh and Steed ‘discussing their options to leave the black’… and the WFAR report says it was ‘based on ADOSH interview with Brendan McDonough’… but there is no such statement from Brendan in any of the ADOSH interview audio recordings or transcripts.

        So what does that mean?

        Does it mean that the WFAR guys were just reproducing shit from the SAIR report and then ‘attributing’ it to statements in ADOSH interviews that don’t actually exist? Was all this intentional… or just more incompetence?

        I don’t know.

        There would now have to be full-blown ‘investigations of the investigations’ to probably clear things like this up.

        >> Bob Powers also wrote.
        >> he ( Mike Dudley ) seemed to be covering the investigation rather than
        >> allowing open discussion.

        Yes. He said it was ‘totally open to questions’ but when one fairly smart fellow in the audience started asking certain pertinent questions… Dudley just got more and more ‘annoyed’ that his ‘narrative’ was being ‘interrupted’.

        Example: One person in the audience who said he was a Hotshot supervisor started asking very relevant questions about the ‘intra crew’ conversations that Dudley has just said they KNOW took place. Dudley had ‘moved on’ in his presentation and was really just annoyed at being asked any questions about something he just said was a ‘done deal’. ( That no one recorded or heard those intra-crew conversations. Period. End of story ).

        >> Bob Powers also wrote…
        >> I am wondering if any thing was cut from the videoed discussion.
        >> Like hard questions?

        I actually don’t think so. It was just a ‘soft’ audience.

        No one wanted to even challenge the ‘loud talking US Forestry Service’ guy
        about anything. That’s too bad.

        >> Bob Powers also said…
        >> Just my thoughts but it seemed too generic and non confrontational. A room
        >> full of wild land fire fighters would have asked some hard questions after
        >> some of Dudley’s statements.

        There WAS a ‘Wildland Division’ section in the audience.
        Dudley pointed to them as soon as he took the stage saying…
        “Well… I can see the Wildland folks”.

        Even the fellow who wanted clarification on why the Arroyo crew didn’t get there and wanted to know more about the intra-crew communications was being very ‘careful’ talking to this ‘big dog’ from USF.

        He had valid questions… but Dudley just seemed annoyed with him.

        >> Bob Powers also wrote…
        >> At least in my day we never pulled any punches.

        Except for that one guy asking questions… I didn’t get any sense there was anyone in the room who knew enough about what happened in Yarnell to even begin to challenge some of the BS that Dudley was slinging from the stage.

        Even now… a full year later… I don’t think the Wildland Firefighting community knows very much at all about the ‘details’ of that day. What that says about there even being a chance of preventing more incidents like this in the future… I don’t know. Unless there is some renewed interest in the WFF community to actually KNOW what REALLY happened and to LEARN from it… then it’s just full speed ahead… business as usual.

        I am actually almost finished with a full transcript of this Mike Dudley dog and pony show from a few days ago. I think it’s important that there be a written record of what this US Forestry robot is out there saying to rooms full of firefighters. He’s almost just ‘telling his own story’ and in many ways isn’t even being consistent with what’s in his OWN report ( that he was co-leader on ).

        Example: He told this room full of firefighters that BOTH ICT4 Russ Shumate and BLM Dean Fernandez where physically THERE in Yarnell on Friday night, shortly after the fire was reported, and were ‘evaluating the fire in-person’ before deciding TOGETHER not to do anything about it until the next day.

        Complete horseshit.

        • mike says

          While there will be no “investigation of the investigations”, this is about to be all reopened, starting essentially from scratch. First, the defendants will get to respond to the suits, then discovery will begin. That means depositions galore. Question for you all. Does Brendan McDonough get deposed? If so, by whom?

        • Bob Powers says

          WTKTT and every one else out there——
          I am at least at ease knowing from My friend who is the Sawtooth Hot Shot Superintendent that he and his supervisors have heavily reemphasized the 10 and 18 and LCES as Identified Failures that occurred in the Yarnell hill fire
          That to me says the people on the ground know what happened and the basics were violated. Lessons learned The 10 standard FF Orders will keep you safe use them.
          While every thing else swirls around and around the people on the ground are focused.

  16. Joy A Collura says

    Fri, Jun 27, 2014 at 8:26 PM she replied by email/phone
    Sonny: AH is ok— her husband is assigned to the fire too.
    Good to know she is safe!

  17. Joy A. Collura says

    is this the only source to see if AH my banker is ok?
    https://safeandwell.communityos.org/zf/safesearch/search
    Thank you Barbara Buchanan for that link
    as the weekend unfolds if anyone gets any information please let me know in regards how this fire started-
    I am not worried about the ghost town or the garden or any of the 3 properties yet I am concerned for A.H.
    simple.
    Any info. to this fire I will appreciate it.

  18. Joy A. Collura says

    Sonny- look at these links to keep informed if the 3 places are in threat—I called Apache County Sheriff and so far its not quite there— shew.
    http://311info.net/—instaweb—Apache County Management—they are focused to 3144—we are at the y remember near 3-d storage—if it crosses hwy 60 Sonny good chance though because we are off huff puff—“Huff Puff” the magic dragon—go with your fire—ugh. I am not happy.
    Sonny, google the google map and put 3144 Vernon County Road, Vernon, Arizona and you can see how very close it is to our 3 properties. I already contacted the banker to make she is okay- nothing yet. How did this fire start? Anyone here know?

  19. Joy A. Collura says

    http://www.wfsb.com/story/25882311/san-juan-fire-explodes-to-2000-acres-in-northeast-az

    What the hell. I will have to call/email our banker who is buying the property but what are the chances that a year later we face another fire —the 3 properties Sonny and I bought cash together in 2012 are in evacuation/fire risk —???— and we are not even there. You see this Sonny? They should write a book about how much fire b.s. we see—all unavoidable b.s. fires. Geez. I just am shaking my head right now when my brother-in-law broke the news to me. Really? That was the property we did the septic, teepee, made the ghost town and cute little signs and sheds and the garden—

    Really? Last year on a Friday I had to spend the weekend assessing if the fire would be bad or not and possibly take homes and now I have to worry about another area—well, I say if my area burns—I had the permit and stupid case proving we did our defensible spaces and we have not been there since the banker took over in Fall 2012. Fudge.

    In Nevada they have gobs of signs that say “call this number to report a wildfire” and I just feel like saying under it WAIT 3 DAYS FIRST since that is our modern world of fighting fires. I am not pleased to see this especially when I have my plate full of events for the anniversary all the way until July 14th I am busy with GMHS/Yarnell Fire events—geez.

  20. Sonny Tex Gilligan says

    Ha, Joy sent me the video by Mike Dudley, Fed. Investigator. It was hard to believe he would start of saying that the GM hotshots were not dually trained and did not do structures. Apparently he did not listen or see the Willis Videos where Willis says protecting structures is what they do and more than once mentioned it. Now if Willis trained them who is telling the truth? It was so much hype I couldn’t waste much more time listening to in since we only get an hour here in Helena at the library. It is obviously a cover up and I for one can’t see why they don’t just say they screwed up. I did not see him mention that two fire departments were told to stand down when they wanted to put the fire out immediately. We don’t have the name of who told them to stand down but someone knows and should get that information public. . Joy and I knew that from talking directly to firefighters on both the Congress and Yarnell departments. We were told by several people that two different ranchers had retardant planes ready and they also were told to stand down the first day and without regard that the fire was on one of the rancher’s land. That information might be able to be verified by Joy as to the sources since she has an impeccable memory. Who told those ranchers to stand down if that information can be proven? It was absolutely a no burn and big signs at the beginning of each end of Yarnell said that. Buford in Yarnell said it was totally illegal to have any kind of fire around there and any fire at all had to be immediately attended to. He said he has been following these lightening strikes and seems they wasn’t to let them linger for some time. He told me he believes one should follow the money–there is big money, more federal grant money, more machinery to be produced, not to mention huge sums put out to battle these wildfires. Seems that lives come secondary in some of these cases and this seems to me to be one of those. I see firemen taking awards when they should be hanging their heads if they had anything at all to do with this mess. I sometimes have wondered because as a miner I sometimes opted out of situations that were life threatening–even when it cost my job. Miners don’t have the comraderie that firemen would because we worked alone and with maybe only a helper. Yet when 7 of us left our working spot to go home and I noticed that 12×12 timbers were mushrooming, I had my check written out. Six others did not and went back not sensing the danger and soon after I had quit were trapped by a cave in at that very spot. So is there group think on some of this stuff, and I think Dr. Ted Putnam works the psychological problem somewhat to that idea. Maybe training in independent thinking would help there, Young mens lives were at stake here and sacrificed to some damn stupid actions all the way around. I disagree with Willis who says there is no fault here. It is too obvious that there is plenty fault. There are plenty of good firefighters risking it all out there to let this go. They think the dead do not talk but I think they have said plenty and I think those men who are putting politics, profit and glory ahead of safety need to at a minimum be relieved of their duties. I do believe that Mr. Dudley as intelligent as he is, knows that he has fed us a line.

    I am glad that Osha saw fit to fine the forest service, although what difference does that make. It only says that someone was careless. That money they pay with tax money anyway. It does not make sense to me, rather, clean up the mess and retire or fire those involved.

  21. WantsToKnowTheTruth says

    **
    ** TODD ABEL’S VEHICLE IDENTIFIED

    * THE SHORT STORY

    Todd Abel was driving his own personal vehicle that day.

    It is an all-silver extended cab 4 door pickup truck that had small white signs on both the driver and the passenger side doors that simply said ‘FIRE’ in red letters.

    Todd Abel’s pickup truck is seen heading EAST on Hays Ranch Road at +26:25 in Panebaker Air-To-Air channel capture video 20130630_1716_EP.

    The 20130630_1716_EP video STARTS at 1645.19 ( 4:45.19 PM ) and is 31 minutes and 25 seconds long… so that means Todd Abel was passing the Panebaker video camera there up on Hays Ranch Road at 1711.44 ( 5:11.44 PM ).

    This Panebakger 1716_EP video is the SAME one that shows Darrell Willis ALSO moving EAST on Hays Ranch Road and headed for the Ranch House Restaurant at around +10:14 into the same 1716_EP video which means Darrell Willis preceded Todd Abel down to the Ranch House Restaurant and passes the same camera 16 minutes and 11 seconds EARLIER than Todd Abel at exactly 1655.33 ( 4:55.33 PM ).

    So even though Darrell Willis has stated to investigators that the first thing he did when arriving at the Ranch House Restaurant was ‘tie in with Abel’… that is not actually possible. More about this below in ‘THE LONG STORY’.

    This also means that there is no need even ‘looking’ for Todd Abel in any of the Tom Story photos taken at the Ranch House Restaurant. He wasn’t there yet. Again… more about this down below in the ‘LONG STORY’ section.

    **
    ** THE PROOF REGARDING TODD ABEL’S VEHICLE

    The proof that this 4-door Silver pickup with the small ‘FIRE’ signs on the side belongs to Todd Abel comes in 2 parts…

    1) Todd Abel has a Facebook page. His photos are all totally PUBLIC and viewable by ANYONE. They even show up just using ‘Google’. THREE photos on his Facebook page show him at a ski resort with his wife and driving that exact same Silver 4 door pickup.

    I will post direct links to these photos in ‘Replies’ down below so this comment doesn’t get hung up in moderation.

    2) That same Silver pickup is then seen in photos from the Operations center of the ‘Crown King Gladiator Fire’ where Todd Abel was known to be working as a DIVSUP.

    Again.. .direct link to this photo will be posted below in a ‘Reply’ to keep this comment from going into moderation.

    ** THE LONG STORY

    Darrell Willis arrived at the RHR parking lot about 11 minutes BEFORE Todd Abel even arrived there and the Tom Story photos show Willis participating in ‘other’ meetings outside of his vehicle BEFORE Todd Abel was even there.

    From Darrell Willis’ Unit Log notes in the same February 27, 2014 document…

    Page 42 ( of 51 pages )…
    ____________________________________________________________________________
    1640 – Heard radio conversation about deployment.
    1647 – Operations Able calls me on my cell phone and asks if I heard what is going on. He told me what he knew.

    NOTE: This is actually incorrect. According to Todd Abel… it was definitely Darrell Willis who called HIM circa 1647.

    1655 – I called TF Moser and informed him that I wanted him to take the Division, to hold the fire with resources on Model Creek Road and to pick up any slop overs.
    1715 – I responded to Yarnell and tied in with Operations Able and monitored radio traffic on Incident within an Incident.
    1745 – Tied in with GMIHC lookout McDonough to determine his welfare.
    _________________________________________________________________________________

    So while Willis certainly DID ‘tie in’ with Abel *eventually*… it certainly wasn’t the FIRST thing Willis did when he arrived at the RHR. Photographic evidence now shows that Willis ‘tied in’ with many ‘others’ much earlier than he did with Todd Abel… who only arrived some time AFTER Willis did.

    There is now also a good explanation as to why we do NOT (apparently) see Todd Abel ( or his vehicle ) in any of the Tom Story photos that cover the timeframe before Mr. Story moved to the BACK of the RHR parking lot.

    Todd Abel wasn’t even there yet.

    He was still ‘on his way’ down from the NORTH side of the fire at the time Tom Story took that entire first set of photos at the RHR.

    A previous post ( reprinted from down below ) establishes the time ( within 30 seconds ) that Darrell Willis himself actually arrived at the Ranch House Restaurant.

    _____________________________________________________________________
    WantsToKnowTheTruth on June 8, 2014 at 5:39 pm said:
    **
    ** PHOTO AND VIDEO PROOF OF WHEN DARRELL WILLIS
    ** ACTUALLY ARRIVED AT THE RANCH HOUSE RESTAURANT
    _____________________________________________________________________
    It was sometime in-between Tom Story photos 1681 and 1682 that Darrell Willis
    white-with-red-stripe pickup actually arrived at the Ranch House Restaurant and
    parked there ( facing north ) where the firefighter in the red helmet was seen
    standing in photo 1681.

    Tom Story photo 1681 was taken at 1707.45 ( 5:07.45 PM )
    Tom Story photo 1682 was taken at 1708.18 ( 5:08.18 PM )

    That is only 33 seconds between the 2 photos.

    Somewhere is those 33 seconds is when this Prescott Fire
    Department F-250 ( Darrell Willis ) ARRIVED at the Ranch House
    Restaurant and parked where that firefighter with the red-helmet was standing.

    For the sake of a ‘good guess’ as to when during those 33 seconds
    Darrell Willis actually ARRIVED and parked the truck… I am going to go
    with the ‘mid-point’ of the 33 seconds and just call Willis’ exact arrival
    time 1508.00 ( 5:08 PM ).

    The reason that F-250 is pointing NORTH when it is parked is ( I believe ) simply because Darrell Willis just approached the RHR from the NORTH, and then did sort of a ‘U-Turn’ as he pulled into the driveway and parked on the shoulder of the highway were that firefighter with the red-helmet had been standing.
    _________________________________________________________________

    So at the moment Willis was ‘arriving’ all the way down at the Ranch House Restaurant parking lot ( 1508.00 / 5:08.00 PM ) OPS1 Todd Abel hadn’t even passed that Panebaker camera heading EAST on Hays Ranch Road yet.

    It would still be ANOTHER 3 minutes and 44 seconds before Todd Abel would actually even pass that camera up north at 1711.44 ( 5:11.44 PM ).

    So when did Todd Abel actually ARRIVE at the Ranch House Restaurant, and how long had Willis already been there BEFORE Abel actually arrived?

    Well… when that white-with-red-stripe PFD pickup seen passing the Panebaker camera up north was first identified as the moment Darrell Willis was seen heading EAST on Hays Ranch Road… some calculations were done to determine how long it then took WILLIS to cover the remaining 4.7 miles from the Panebaker camera to the RHR parking lot.

    Again… information from a previous post reproduced HERE…

    _____________________________________________________________________
    WantsToKnowTheTruth on June 8, 2014 at 5:39 pm said:

    ** PHOTO AND VIDEO PROOF OF WHEN DARRELL WILLIS
    ** ACTUALLY ARRIVED AT THE RANCH HOUSE RESTAURANT
    ______________________________________________________________________

    PANEBAKER VIDEO 20130630_1716_EP STARTS AT 1645.19

    This video is 31 minutes and 25 seconds long.

    +10:14 ( 1655.33 / 4:55.33 PM )
    The white F250 pickup with the red stripe ( Prescott National Forest ) pickup seen in the Swartz photo(s) first appears at the right side of the camera frame heading EAST ( pretty quickly ) on Hays Ranch Road. This pretty much must be Darrell Willis now headed down to Yarnell where the same pickup will soon be seen ( in the Tom Story photographs ) arriving at the Ranch House Restaurant between 1707.45 and 1708.18 ( 5:07.45 and 5:08.18 PM ).

    Distance from video camera point to…

    U-Store-It in Yarnell: 3.19341 mi
    Point where Shrine Road meets Highway 89: 3.90369 mi
    Ranch House Restaurant: 4.76341 mi

    The TIME difference between when Willis’ pickup is seen crossing in front of the video camera on Hays Ranch Road and when it appears to have ARRIVED at the Ranch House Restaurant is…

    1708.00 – 1655.33 = 12 minutes and 27 seconds.

    In order for Darrell Willis to have covered the distance from the camera all the way to the Ranch House Restaurant in those 12 minutes and 27 seconds ( without stopping anywhere else on the way? ) means he would have needed to maintain an average speed of 22.93 mile per hour.

    This sounds just about right… since even Darrell Willis has said in his interviews that as he made that trip down into Yarnell… Highway 89 was ‘covered with smoke’ and the visibility was BAD. Darrell Willis himself has said he had to be ‘careful’ and the he ‘almost hit two horses just running down the Highway’. So it was SLOW GOING there on Highway 89 at that time when he was driving south towards the RHR.

    The same ‘visibility’ and ‘road conditions’ would have been in place when Todd Abel made the same trip down to Yarnell and Abel would have to have been driving just as carefully as Willis did… so if you add the same 12 minutes and 27 seconds that it took Willis to reach the RHR from the Panebaker camera setup to the time when Todd Abel passed the same Panebaker setup ( 1711.44 ) then that means Todd Abel could not have arrived at the RHR any sooner than 1724.11 ( 5:24.11 PM ).

    **
    ** TODD ABLE CAN’T BE IN ANY TOM STORY PHOTOS?

    So at the moment Willis was ‘arriving’ all the way down at the Ranch House Restaurant parking lot ( 1508.00 / 5:08.00 PM ) OPS1 Todd Abel hadn’t even passed that Panebaker camera heading EAST on Hays Ranch Road yet.

    It would still be ANOTHER 3 minutes and 44 seconds before Todd Abel would actually even pass that camera up north at exactly 1711.44 ( 5:11.44 PM ).

    Tom Story’s first photo set taken at the Ranch House Restaurant are photos 1677 through 1687, covering a 3 minute time period from 5:06 PM to 5:08 PM.

    1677 was taken at 5:06 PM
    1687 was taken at 5:08 PM.

    Tom Story then moved to the BACK of the Ranch House Restaurant parking lot, climbed a small set of stairs back there that used to go up to a trailer, and then took his SECOND set of photos there. This set of photos ( 1688 through 1702 ) covers the ‘next’ FOUR minute time period from 5:09 PM to 5:13 PM.

    Photo 1688 was taken at 5:09 PM ( 1 minute after the end of his first photo set ).
    Photo 1702 was taken at 5:13 PM. ( The last photo Story took at the RHR )

    So if Todd Abel was only passing the Panebaker camera up NORTH at 5:11.44 PM… it’s really not possible for him to be in ANY of the Tom Story photos taken at the Ranch House Restaurant.

    That means Todd Abel was NOT physically there in the RHR parking lot even when Frisby and Brown ‘launched’ on their ‘ground rescue mission’.

    Links to other photographs of Todd Abel’s Silver pickup will be posted as ‘Replies’….

      • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

        One more post…

        This is the ‘confirmation’ that Todd Abel was, in fact, a DIVSUP on the Crown King Gladiator fire ( along with his old engine crew buddy Dean Steward ) and so that really is Abel’s Silver pickup seen in the photo above taken by the Crown King Fire Operations center…

        ** Prescott Valley Tribune Article confirming Todd Abel
        ** was a DIVSUP at the Crown King Fire…

        5/23/2012 11:29:00 AM
        Article: Firefighters battle heat, wind in efforts to douse Gladiator blaze
        CYFD lends expertise, manpower in fight

        http://pvtrib.com/Main.asp?SectionID=1&SubSectionID=1&ArticleID=56054

        From the article…

        Central Yavapai Fire District has several personnel helping to fight the nearly 15,000-acre Gladiator Fire, including several who are members of the Southwest Type I Incident Management Team that is overseeing firefighting efforts. CYFD Acting Fire Marshal Rick Chase said the Type I team members include Asst. Chief of Operations Scott Bliss, who is a task force leader on the fire and Battalion Chief Jeff Polacek, serving as a task force leader trainee.

        Division Supervisors Capt. Todd Abel, and Capt. Dean Steward,

        Strike Team Leader trainee Capt. Doug Niemynski are also serving on the fire, as are Engineer J.W. Seets and Firefighter Jaron Kirk, who are manning a water tender.

    • calvin says

      WTK.

      I find it hard to believe that Willis did a U turn in a 2 lane road and was able to park perfectly with the front tires perfectly straight with a F250 4×4 extended cab pick up truck.

      It is possible, but unlikely (IMHO). And there is no actual photographic evidence that he did a U turn

      • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

        Calvin… maybe he went PAST that first driveway entrance to the RHR… pulled in the OTHER driveway… and than had a ‘straight shot’ at parking where he did with the vehicle facing north.

        There are Tom Story photos that precede that one which show other vehicles LEAVING that parking lot around that time via that closer driveway… so maybe that close driveway had a vehicle in it when Wills arrived and he HAD to go to the ‘next driveway’ and then ‘come back’ to where we see him parked.

        Regardless… there really is no doubt that is Willis’ truck.

        How he accomplished the ‘turn around’ to be facing north when parked
        is something only he could answer.

  22. Joy A Collura says

    John Dougherty-
    there was a comment I posted that was awaiting moderation then vanished
    ????
    just letting you know if you need to edit anything out—feel free—
    maybe it did not get posted due to email addies
    ?????

    • Bob Powers says

      Thanks Joy I had some info on him already.
      He is another one of the overhead that dose not put much emphases on the 10 & 18 or LCES.
      Not making safety Training easy on the ground pounders.

  23. Joy A. Collura says

    when I posted I inserted my talk in the middle of Mike Dudley’s email—
    oops.
    blunder.
    soft smiles.

    • Joy A. Collura says

      Bob Powers—you are too funny…

      you sound like the email I got from Sonny.

      I had to educate Sonny as I will you too—

      the speaker in that video led the SAIR investigation- his name is Mike Dudley.

      I thought it was a decent video but it did not teach these firefighting community the proper assessment to the YHF was all—

      I sent him an email Sent: Sunday, August 11, 2013 7:50 PM
      (content of email:
      we were at the fire line and curious to know why you all have not contacted us as witness’ as well as for the footage you can see on my hiking partner’s hiking page in comment wall she has a lot of photos from that day-
      not from highway or home backyard but there where the Hotshots were-
      we had meter readings at 43mph not 80-90 like Willis states
      and we know for fact that area did not have 10 ft chaparral but maybe wide intertwined and realistic it was 6ft max and the saddest part was the low altitude hovering/observing aircrafts that were not putting out any fires yet we did see indeed much fanning of the fire-
      We have much detail to that morning and afternoon- )

      and he replied Tue, Aug 13, 2013 at 6:35 AM
      (content of his email: Good morning Tex and Joy,
      Thanks for making contact with me. We had been alerted to your presence that day by the reporter from the Prescott paper and she gave us the pictures that were used in the article. However, we did not get a contact number to reach you. We would like to interview you and your hiking partner as to what you encountered and your observations. More importantly, what route you took to leave the area.)
      Then phone conference 8/13/13 2:04pm-2:48pm- Washington- Tim Foley (
      t1foley@hotmail.com
      ) ,incident meteorologist Brent Wachter , Richa Wilson (rwilson@fs.fed.us) & Wildland Fire Leadership- retired US Forestry-
      ( Tom Zimmerman (his link), Mike Dudley- (Tue, Aug 13, 2013 at 6:35 AM)
      USDA Forest Service
      mdudley@fs.fed.us
      801-540-4881
      That was our dealings with that speaker. I just wish because he is so at ease and comfortable and easy to listen to that he said a little more on the golden rules being broken and the cardinal rules too that were broken because that is unfair to the men and women listening to him. See how I use to say Jim Karels backing up the SAIRS did a great disservice — I now think this kind of speaking does too.

      I’d like to schedule a time to call you tomorrow if possible. Please let me know what time works for you.

      Thank you.

      Mike Dudley

      USDA Forest Service

      mdudley@fs.fed.us

      801-540-4881

    • Bob Powers says

      If in fact the spread charts in Dudley’s video are correct which are the same as the investigation report. I want to reemphasize that the main fire had crossed the saddle above the crew close to the same time 1640 they confronted the fire in front of them. That would have cut off any retreat back to the saddle. Also the charts indicate that the ridge to their left NE ridge line with some slop over. The fire engulfed the canyon and deployment site in less than 10 min.
      Again that is why we learned along time ago crews should never go into a canyon or a Shute
      from the top with an active fire uncontrolled close to them.
      Regardless of what Dudley said Fire fighters do not do that a hundred times with out a problem. With out LCES and several other safety factors in place you just do not do that.
      Mr. Dudley don’t give false information to fire fighters.

  24. Bob Powers says

    John——
    Looks like we lost some stuff from the 24, 25, and this morning can we get that back?
    like the new site.

    • Bob Powers says

      The you tube video that Joy posted June 20 2014 this morning and comments was part of the issing,

  25. WantsToKnowTheTruth says

    **
    ** CONFIRMED?
    ** THE WHITE TACOMA BELONGED TO MARTY COLE

    Marti… I was re-reading some of the posts below and wanted to point out that it DOES seem as if we have ‘confirmed’ that the WHITE TACOMA seen in all of Tom Story’s photos taken at the Ranch House Restaurant did, in fact, belong to Marty Cole. ( Marty Cole was the Safety Officer from Prescott that didn’t arrive in Yarnell until just shortly before the deployment ).

    The only ‘lingering’ head-scratcher I had was that it seemed like the white Tacoma passing the Panebaker A2A camera setup on Hays Ranch Road was a little too ‘early’ to be Marty Cole.

    I was mistaken. I was misremembering Cole’s testimony and thought that he had said he was at the ICP when he heard the deployment radio traffic.

    That is NOT the case. Marty Cole testified that he left the ICP at Model Creek School BEFORE the deployment traffic appeared on the radio. Cole was headed to Yarnell already, and only heard the deployment traffic when he stopped on the side of the road to try and obtain a ‘radio clone’ that he was UNABLE to obtain back at the ICP.

    So that does, in fact, match the ‘timing’ as seen in the Panebaker A2A video.

    Cole says he ‘saw some AZ State guys on the side of the road’ on his way to Yarnell and that is where he stopped to see if he could get a radio clone from THEM. They told him to ‘hold on’ because it was at that moment that that Steed’s first MAYDAY call was hitting the radio.

    We know that these ‘AZ State guys’ Cole is referring to were probably NOT the ‘Panebaker’ crew itself or we would be seeing Cole’s white Tacoma either stopping or slowing down in the video itself. It *could* have been the people we now see assembled at that ‘checkpoint’ where Hays Ranch Road meets Highway 89. That would also match the ‘timing’ as seen in the Panebaker video when Cole’s white Tacoma was passing THAT camera.

    So all the known photographic and video evidence is actually ‘in alignment’ for us to conclude that that pretty much HAS to the Marty Cole’s white Tacoma with the single word FIRE on the passenger door in RED letters.

    Now… as to why we are apparently *not* actually seeing Marty Cole himself in any of the Tom Story photos… I think Cole’s testimony explains that as well.

    Cole says that as soon as he got to the Ranch House Restaurant and was informed that Brendan McDonough was actually THERE over by the GM vehicles… Cole got with Brendan right away.

    NOTE: There is no evidence that anyone ever ‘announced’ over the radio that Brendan McDonough was at the RHR. It appears that people ( including Cole and Willis and Abel ) only found out about this in-person as they ARRIVED at the RHR.

    So it would appear that Cole just ‘got with Brendan’ over there between the GM vehicles right away and then probably wasn’t leaving him alone for even one second… which is why we don’t actually SEE him in the Tom Story photos. He was over there ‘in-between’ the GM vehicles or perhaps even inside one of the crew carriers with Brendan.

    Cole also says that at some point he ‘off loaded’ Brendan, but never explained what he meant by that. I’m assuming that means that later on, after the fatalities were reported, Cole ended up driving Brendan up to the ICP at Model Creek School. There is some other testimony that amounts to ‘Brendan sightings’ up at the ICP later that evening so I’m assuming that is how Brendan got to the ICP. Marty Cole drive him there and that is what Cole meant by ‘off loading Brendan’ in his testimony.

    With regards to Abel and Musser… and the vehicles THEY were driving… I’m putting another post together that will appear shortly.

    I believe I have found Abel’s vehicle. Todd Abel was driving his own personal pickup truck that day which is why it has been so hard to ‘spot’ in the photos / videos.

    As for Musser… it turns out that the Panebaker videos DO capture some vehicles coming OUT of Sickles Road itself and then making a RIGHT turn and heading directly EAST on Hays Ranch Road. Musser has said in his testimony that as soon as things were ‘under control’ over on Sickles Road is when he headed straight for Yarnell… so one of those vehicles seen actually coming OUT of Sickles Road and then heading EAST on Hays Ranch Road is probably Musser.

    More later.

    • Marti Reed says

      Yikes!!!

      I posted a reply yesterday to this that seems to have completely disappeared in this site translation.

      It was about how you once earlier posted that you thought Marty Cole was in the first of Tom Story’s photos. And I wrote that I thought that red bag he was holding might have been (as I had researched such things) might have Brendan’s “overnight bag.”

      • Marti Reed says

        And I also said I was very very interested in what,you,we’re finding out about Todd Abel’s vehicle

        • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

          Marti… yes… at one point I thought that guy with the mustache in Tom Story’s first photo who is ‘holding his hand out’ and the other guy is copying something that is written on the palm of his hand onto the palm of his OWN hand was Marty Cole. Now I am not so sure. The fellow in Tom Story’s photo looks ‘younger’ that the ‘retired’ Marty Cole ought to look.

          Still could be him, though… and yes.. he could already be holding a piece of Brendan’s gear since his testimony also says he ‘stowed Brendan’s gear in my vehicle’.

          Re: Todd Abel. The post is coming. It has ‘math’ in it and I have to be sure
          about some times in the Panebaker videos… but I am getting some wildly
          different ‘times’ when just trying to use the min/sec indicator in Windows
          Media Player. Standby. Solvable problem.

  26. John says

    On a side note I would like to mention that Dakota Slone, who took the Facebook videos of the fire, received a 4 year prison sentence for looting homes during the evacuation. Classy individual.

    • Joy A. Collura says

      First off— I love this new look John Dougherty to the site—easier for my eyes.

      To reply to John ? (no last name on comment; not Dougherty I do not think)

      — true Dakota did get such sentence and let us not forget this individual spent that day helping so many elder and locals to get out and it was not to steal from them and those people were not stolen from and will confirm that they would of not got out alive and their pets without Dakota. He ended up talking and hanging out that night with a few guys—the wrong crowd—and it is one of those wrong place moments — yet let’s make a strong example of the group but not really look at the facts and all of it and he was served a heavy sentence not really hearing his story may be due to appearance and that Southern mouth of his— I also feel it DOES NOT matter WHO brings their photos and videos to the public because it is not about the person but the information on the photo to properly assess this fire— There is more about the Slone boy I cannot share but he was in a bad spot—wrong moment.

      Photographers: Monica Mine area of Yarnell looks very stunning with the wildflower patch and the burnt background.—-off Hayes Rd. Private Property but Neb said it is absolutely beautiful. I have a serious left foot injury so I cannot walk it yet but I hope to see it. There is a cavewoman up there—if she does not have a shotgun in hand—she says whatever it takes she will not allow you to see it so good luck but it is suppose to be stunning—

      Penny who shared the photos/videos to me last week asked me this week to not share it and I explained that I only shared it to investigativemedia.com blog area and she has concerns to money rights so if anyone ever used and photo or videos of Dakota Slone for a publication she wants to be contacted first because she only gave me a sole right to get the photos a proper look out to properly assess fire—her email is hummingbirdhamilton@gmail.com

      Next, locals keep telling me to find Flame Propane guy Mike Fitz for he has the photos that has all we need to properly assess this fire and some guy name Sean. I have not located him but meanwhile a man name Carter and his wife Ann on Lakewood Court is sharing his account here at the Yarnell library (SAD–VERY SAD account) with me , Don Mason, Kari Flippen & Christina Cooper and how they did a slurry drop in Glen Ilah—was this ever in any reports? This drop. We never heard of a drop THAT close to the GMHS. He said that drop saved his and 3 other homes and that is the Manzanita/Lakewood area of Glen Ilah. Locals say B-Wear Boutique Pizzirusso family has good photos too. I have not seen her yet. He also said he has a photo from the source terrafirm something satellite photography that shows that slurry drop.

      Shew, I am trying to REMEMBER every detail thrown to me today—-oh do not forget to watch the History Channel spot done here on my birthday July 1st at 10pm in regards to Yarnell.

      Wilhoit; Neb is retired from many areas of firefighting world and even met someone who was fighting the fire that day and their topic of discussion as we ate at the senior center today was Friday the 28th they did not assess with air or hand crew that fire at all—binoculars ???
      Saturday night was misdiagnosed and they broke all fire rules—the fire was at that point burning down a hill—Sunday the fire created a firestorm which created that unusual thunderstorm/wind. However it was not all MOTHER NATURE because if that fire was put out earlier that storm was in a sense created due to the fire activity. The firefighter Neb and the others felt all Golden rules were violated—The way they pinched the skunked fires to head in the direction of the incident command post was questioned—Cardinal rule broken when there was no command setup already- Poor communication as this men Neb was there all 3 days listening to radio frequencies. The drops were made to funnel and the bucket drops to support that line to make it create a small area but why near the IC post. I AGREE with this comment he made and I support this 100%: –>WHY is Yarnell being given THAT MUCH money for a memorial that should go to Turbyfill’s fire shelter project and the GPS program. I agree.

      Errors were made and this fire still has not got the proper assessment it deserves for the ones affected by it. It is not a MOVE ON type situation when there IS answers still to unfold….I heard today that some people are not coming this weekend and some are not even living here again. I hope to hear more accounts this week. I look forward to seeing everyone this week because after July 14th this gal will not be available like I have been the past annual may I hit the trails again or get a job finally full time—not made my decision yet.

      Keep you updated as I get it even if it means not much to the investigation—its all a process…

      Oh Bob Powers— I am not a firefighter and I always give my culinary artistic flair vs. a firefighter terminology so I thank you dearly for always making the comments you do because I read your comment again now that I am AWAKE and I do in general know we do not look favorably upon things that are bitter yet its one of our basic tastes—yet in the cooking world bitter green foods most turn their nose up to it- DISGUSTING—EWWW—yet to me it is a delight to wake up the taste buds and very healthy. SO my hopes is to keep my voice going and may it seem bitter to hear that there may be a back burn yet not shown—I seriously seen these photos and I would not put out there anything to mislead or misinformation and that is why I express it is IMPORTANT these people show all their accounts so it can be properly assessed—I do not want to conceive that not yet announced back burn with documentation yet after all I have seen to date I would not be shocked if it came to light—so when something comes off foreign or bitter—do what Bob Powers–ask the questions because I will answer you or ramble in detail where I came to such statement—oh and on a culinary note, look for the young when getting your bitter greens—much more mild. I am hoping the young will come forward that was on this YH fire and share their accounts too. It does matter their accounts—

      DARN the lawyer up bs—

      The Hart Family is in the LA Times and they were tricked for a story—they did not want any part of the article and they are terribly frightened. I enjoy the freedom of speech and the media outlets but this family told a local they did not permit this insert of them—

    • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

      I don’t care if Al Capone himself was there in Yarnell that day. If he was taking photos and/or videos… I would like to see them.

      • Joy A Collura says

        I agree. Actually I am in the process of taking the photos we had on Sonny’s truck and putting it in a frame and this whole weekend I will be bannering publicly that ANYONE even if Capone was there too to send their accounts to PO BOX 42 YARNELL ARIZONA 85362—this is the time for remembering but it is also the time for people not to forget these men deserve YHF to be properly assessed

    • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

      Just to be clear… the link above is actually Dakota Slone Movie 6 on his Facebook page.

      Movie 6 – Sunday, June 30, 2013
      Talking to people up on Crest Way.

      NOTE: Road sign in video says intersection of ‘Crest Way’ and ‘Happy Way’… so it would appear THIS video was shot BEFORE they were evacuating out the NORTH end of Crest Way and BEFORE his previous two videos.( 4 and 5 ).

  27. Bob Powers says

    Joy—
    Need more info on the suggested back fires.
    Were they started by citizens?
    Were they started by Fire personnel on the fire?
    I am some what confused by this if a law suit is saying it I would not hold a lot of belief that it is fact with out proof.
    2 Investigations did not turn up any information on backfires or burn outs.
    If Blue ridge had any knowledge of any thing like that they would have been screaming to high heaven that a back fire trapped the hot shots. That would have been made clear to the investigation and at the walk thru by the superintendents after the fire. Fire personnel would not have ordered a backfire with the winds and erratic fire activity. So the home owners may have but would need more than hearsay for proof. any firing out in town would not have affected the location of GM. They already had a well established fire front.
    None of the fire crews or engines talked about a burn out in the investigations.
    After everything I am skeptical of this info. need a lot more facts.

    • Joy A. Collura says

      Good Morning Bob Powers- I just walked in the door—need much rest but it was important to answer you this as I have been gone in Flagstaff/Prescott since Saturday—also took someone the legal area to the 19 area—very long weekend that just ended (thank God too) but on Tue, Jun 24, 2014 at 9:42 PM email—Holly Neill educated me with a K&R Lawsuit PDF file- she said: You might want to read this, it came out today. There is no mention of a burnout in Yarnell, but they are saying that due to a lack of burnout, this is why Yarnell burned up.

      It seems as if they do not have video or photo evidence showing a burnout that could have affected GM. I don’t know why Yarnell folks are referring to the lawyers having a video to prove a burnout, do you?”============

      I will keep looking into this topic but as I hear the information I share it raw and to answer you I have no clue about the backburn except that Buford stated it was mentioned in a 90 page lawsuit that Wendy read and I have seen photos/videos of areas and angles that the folks need to post publicly to properly assess this fire. I can tell you with expertise how to do culinary artistic stuff or even airbrush ladies before a photo shoot to make a plain jane look hot—stuff like that but seeing things in a photo foreign to me needs to be seen by people who can properly assess this and no I personally do not want to conceive the theories of backburns yet I share it as it has been shown to me or spoken to me—I am up there a lot this week so keep you posted—helping United Way and so much the next few days so please Bob know I am trying to get more information/photos/videos yet a lot of the folks may resurface for the anniversary weekend is a hope of mine.—let you know Bob, ok. I am sorry for the delay. I did not have a way to reply until just now.

      • Bob Powers says

        Not a problem Joy thanks for the info I thought it sounded a little off but people say a lot and things get turned around.
        It has been almost a year and There are still some unanswered questions
        Take care BOB

      • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

        In his ADOSH interview… Gary Cordes told investigators that around the time that the fire was ‘coming into town’. it was “spotting ahead almost a half mile”.

        To people who are not even aware that fires can do that sort of thing… it might have actually *looked* like someone was ‘manually’ setting ‘backfires’ in places that were forward of the actual fireline.

        I am *not* discounting the possibility that some ‘manual backburns’ *might* have actually been initiated that day at the last minute… I am only passing on what Gary Cordes himself has told investigators.

        Matter of fact… if Cordes is right… then one ( or more ) of these ‘spot aheads’ could have been how the fire advanced so quickly across that ‘bowl’ and ended up being the fire that filled the box canyon and killed the 19.

        At the time the MacKenzie photos were taken and GM was still in the ‘safe black’…. the fireline is seen already advancing DUE SOUTH and it was only about 4,400 feet from the mouth of the box canyon. That’s only 0.83 miles ( a little more than two-thirds of a mile )… and that was even 20 to 30 minutes earlier than what Cordes is reporting about the ‘half mile’ spot-aheads. In another 20 minutes or so… the fireline was most certainly within a ‘half-mile’ of the box canyon and even a shorter ‘spot ahead’ event could have put fire right there at the mouth of that canyon. GM would have been already descending and unable to even see this ‘spotting ahead’ that Cordes is reporting.

        That’s why LOOKOUTS are so IMPORTANT.

        The following Dakota Slone movie actually seems to support what Gary Cordes has told investigators. It is the one where Dakota is heard yelling “The fire is now entering town”. It was taken from an elevated position up on ‘Crest Way’ to the EAST of Highway 89 and the video was shot looking WEST at the fire as it was, indeed, ‘coming into town’.

        There are fires ALL OVER the horizon and some do, in fact, look like they are out ‘ahead’ of the fireline and might be the result of the ‘spotting ahead’ that Gary Cordes was talking about.

        Dakota Slone – Movie 3 – Sunday, June 30, 2013
        “It’s now entering town!”.

        http://www.facebook.com/video/embed?video_id=483080561774400

        • Bob Powers says

          I was surprised that the video that was posted this morning
          The speaker just brushed over the crew and LCES as if it was no big deal. He also made a statement that you could do what GM did 100 times with out any problems are you F****** kidding me that is why we are killing fire fighters. Some one there should have called him on that one.

          • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

            This ‘presentation’ a few days ago by SAIT co-leader Mike Dudley just reminds me again of that Mark Twain quote….

            “It isn’t what he doesn’t know that scares me.
            It’s what he knows fer sure… that just ain’t so.”

            Even now… almost a full YEAR later… Dudley is simply plain WRONG about a number of ‘facts’ he is reporting to rooms full of firefighters.

            Example 1: Dudley says that that Granite Mountain would have had a ‘clear view’ of the fire for the entire time they were on the ‘alternate escape route’…. if they had only chosen to go that way.

            Nothing could be further from the truth.

            Example 2: Dudley says that the REASON Brendan McDonough doesn’t ‘know anything’ about the decisions being made by Marsh and Steed up on the ridge is simply because after he was picked up by Blue Ridge Supt. Brian Frisby… Brendan handed Frisby his radio… and never got it back.

            Complete horseshit.

            Here is that actual exchange from the video itself…

            +40:18
            Dudley says the reason that Brendan McDonough could not tell them anything about any of the decisions made was simply because “He gave his radio to the Superintendent of Blue Ridge”. Dudley left this audience with the impression that Brendan never got the radio BACK… and THAT is why he doesn’t know anything.

            A member of the audience then raised his hand to ask a question. Dudley stops… points at him… and says “Go ahead”…

            Question: “So he (Brendan) no longer had access to the CREW channel.”

            Dudley: BINGO!. That’s it.

            Then Dudley continues and says…

            “We KNOW there were communications taking place ( about the decisions ), but that was all taking place on the intra-crew channels. No one recorded any of that and no one heard any of that.”

            Bzzzzt. Sorry Mike. Not buying your BS there.

            Your own SAIR document states unequivocally that Brendan DID ‘hear them discussing their options’. You just wouldn’t print what he heard.

            Besides… you forget that there were FOUR Granite Mountain vehicles with FOUR onboard radios that had the GM intra-crew frequency… so there are potentially FOUR people right there that ‘probably’ heard the GM intra-crew conversations while the vehicles were being moved. ( Brendan and at least 3 other Blue Ridge Hotshots ).

            Frisby dropped Brendan right off at the GM Supt truck… and Brendan has always said the first thing he did there was fire up the truck… crank up the air-conditioner… and turn the RADIO volume up ‘all the way’ so he could be sure and hear if Steed and Marsh were ‘calling him’ on the GM intra crew. From that moment on… Brendan was ‘listening’ to ALL the conversations on the GM intra-crew. There is no doubt about that.

            Besides… even if someone were to believe Dudley that Brendan ‘gave his radio to Brian Frisby and didn’t get it back’….

            …then what about Brian Frisby?

            Now Brian Frisby has a radio with ( as Brendan has stated in his ADOSH interviews ) actually had its PRIORITY channel set to the GM intra-crew so as to never ‘miss’ any traffic on that channel.

            So what did Brian Frisby hear, then?

            This Mike Dudley video from a few days ago really deserves a published transcript… and I’m currently working on that.

            • Bob Powers says

              If I Am not mistaken Macdonough Called Marsh on the enter crew to tell him the trucks were at the restaurant. Cant remember the exact words.

              • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

                See new ( parent ) comment about this up above.
                It has the ‘exact words’ in it.

                In THREE separate interviews… Brendan states that he called Steed to tell him when the vehicles were ‘safe’. In two of those interviews only the word PARKED is used and it is not clear whether Brendan called Steed when they were ‘parked’ at the Shrine Youth Camp or ( eventually ) ‘parked’ at the RHR…

                …but in Brendan’s hour-long video interview with the Prescott Daily Courier he definitely seems to be saying that called Steed to tell him the vehicles were PARKED and SAFE only after reaching ( in Brendan’s own words ) “…the cafe’….”.

                Only problem with THAT, however, is that we now know that if Brendan waited until all of the GM vehicles were fully PARKED at the RHR before attempting to call Steed and inform him of this… then there was no one to answer the call. Steed was most probably already dead by then.

                So Brendan has testified over and over that he DID make this call to Steed and told him the GM vehicles were now PARKED and SAFE… but it’s still not clear EXACTLY when he did that.

          • SR says

            Video was a classic case of PC. Lot of talk about certs and quals, in a deep voice to make clear anyone contradicting this better be the President or even more senior. Lot of talk about pure wildland quals.

            No examination of actual culture, or the strange coincidence of the fact that a municipal crew didn’t seem familiar with local conditions, at very least, without even getting to LCES or past decisions.

  28. WantsToKnowTheTruth says

    **
    ** THE DAKOTA SLONE VIDEOS
    **
    ** HOW TO VIEW THE DAKOTA SLONE YFH MOVIES
    ** WITHOUT HAVING A FACEBOOK ACCOUNT

    Contrary to popular belief… you can either VIEW or DOWNLOAD pretty much ANYTHING from anyone’s ‘Facebook’ account without even ever having signed up for Facebook.

    Facebook’s ‘security policies’ are an absolute JOKE.

    In the case of ‘movies’… all you have to do is know what the URL is that Facebook has assigned for this ‘movie’… and then just replace the ‘www’ prefix in the URL with the letter ‘m’.

    This is NOT HACKING.

    It’s just a ‘common knowledge’ way to access content on Facebook WITHOUT even having an ‘account’ there.

    What is actually happening is that by replacing the ‘www’ prefix in the URL with the letter ‘m’… you are ‘fooling’ Facebook into thinking you are requesting the material from a MOBILE device.

    Facebook is too stupid to know whether you really ARE on a ‘Mobile’ device or not… so it coughs up the content with no further checking as to whether you are a valid Facebook user or if you are currently ‘Logged in’ to your Facebook account.

    So what follows are the DIRECT LINKS to the videos that are sitting in Dakota Slone’s Facebook account.

    They should all appear ‘straight away’ in your Browser regardless of whether you have a ‘Facebook’ account.

    The only drawback is that because Facebook really now thinks you are using a SMARTPHONE or some other MOBILE device… the videos that appear will be totally without any standard ‘Facebook’ formatting and will look like they were intended to appear on a ‘small device’.

    If you want to actually SAVE a copy of any of these movies to your own hard drive… all you should have to do is RIGHT-CLICK any of the links below and then select the ‘Save Link As’ option that should appear on the POPUP menu in your Browser.

    Dakota Slone currently has EIGHT videos from the Yarnell Hill Fire sitting in his Facebook album… so I am going to post the first link in THIS message and the other SEVEN in ‘Replies’ to this message in order to obey the WordPress rule of only having one active LINK in any one ‘comment’ so that the ‘comments’ don’t fall into ‘moderation’.

    Here is Dakota Slone’s FIRST video…

    Dakota Slone Movie 1 – Saturday evening, June 29, 2013

    This was taken right after SUNDOWN and shows the fire progression a few hours after it had (unfortunately) ESCAPED across that two-track road fire break…

    https://fbcdn-video-a.akamaihd.net/hvideo-ak-xpf1/v/t42.1790-2/1031708_483082561774200_351749994_n.mp4?oh=af99c2eaea6d413e2fd48ac7b9555b24&oe=53A54B2F&__gda__=1403341861_93cda54252083105cf0a66e133090b3e

  29. Marti Reed says

    As we discuss events happening around the time of the burnover, including the possibility that someone (I have no clue as to who) might have started a burnout that may have contributed to the fire that killed the GM 19, I would highly recommend that people watch the longer Panebaker videos that include the Air2Air communications. (Can’t post the link because I’m posting from my iPad while I’m recording on my computer)

    Whoever is interested in the fire behavior on this fire will be studying these videos for years.

    You can really see the whole fire turning around, clockwise, the column lowering and pushing towards Yarnell, and that location where GM was located. just glowing with fire. I’ve said to people that I’m currently watching (while trying to identify vehicles passing in front of that camera) the grass growing in front of a conflagration turning into a holocaust.

    Maybe there was a backburn. I’m totally open to that.

    But IMHO these videos show this fire turning around (just as Byron Kimball’s passing on of the NWS forecast/warning that it would) and pushing into that area with such a powerful force that it would, by itself, explain what happen in it’s wake.

  30. WantsToKnowTheTruth says

    **
    ** CORY MOSER’S WHITE-WITH-RED-STRIPE
    ** PRESCOTT FIRE DEPARTMENT PICKUP TRUCK

    Reply to calvin on June 19, 2014 at 3:42 am said:

    >> calvin said…
    >> The truck with the tag G-039EJ is not the same truck seen in
    >> Swartz photos or Tom Story photos. It does not have the same
    >> toolbox and it has a light bar mounted on the top of the cab.

    Thank you, calvin… YES… I was ‘looking too fast’.

    That is NOT a ‘close up’ of Darrell Willi’s white-with-red-stripe Prescott Fire Department pickup seen up there at the intersection of ‘Model Creek Road’ and ‘Double Bar-A ( Hays ) Ranch Road’.

    It’s Cory Moser’s.

    NOTE: For reference… THIS is the photo being discussed.
    It’s the one that shows all those fire vehicles assembled in
    the ‘smoke’ and making that ‘last stand’ up there at the
    intersection of ‘Model Creek Road’ and ‘Double Bar A ( Hays )
    Ranch road. The ‘road sign’ for this intersection is clearly seen
    in the photo as are the license plate numbers of at least
    TWO of the vehicles… including Cory Moser’s…

    https://www.dropbox.com/sh/20inrene9tcx74a/AACltJPUFfvmZqibRwGSJwWLa/ADOSH%20Yarnell%20Hill%20Investigation/Photos%20and%20Video/ASFD%20Photos/Miscellaneous%20Photos#lh:null-28.JPG

    All of the official ‘resource orders’ release in the FOIA/FOIL packages
    have a ‘Travel Mode’ field that may or may not contain the actual license
    number of the vehicle that the individual filling the order will be traveling in.

    Cory Moser’s DOES.

    His resource order ‘Travel Mode’ field says this…
    Travel Mode: AOV G039EJ ( License plate number )

    Moser was Willis’ TFLD trainee that Sunday in Yarnell and is also from Prescott.
    Moser is actually employed by the Prescott Fire Department itself.

    Moser was (apparently) NEVER interviewed by either the SAIT or by ADOSH and never even submitted any ‘Unit Log’ of his own from that day… but Moser IS mentioned other people’s ‘Unit Logs’ from Yarnell that DID in that document with ‘additional unit logs’ released ‘late’ by Arizona Forestry on February 27 2014.

    Document name: Unit-Logs-provided-on-2-27 ( PDF file ).

    Todd Foster’s ( Task Force 1 Leader ) ‘Unit Log’ is at the very top of that February 27, 2014 collection of log files.

    According to Foster… Cory Moser is the one who actually ‘implemented’ Willis’ ‘burnout’ plan out at the Double Bar A Ranch.

    In these same Unit Logs… Todd Foster is listed as the ACTUAL Task Force 1 LEADER and Cory Moser is simple listed as a ‘Trainee’.

    Todd Foster says he doesn’t know where Willis and Moser went after they left the Double Bar A ranch… but he THINKS that Moser went down to Yarnell with Willis…

    From the Unit Logs ( Todd Foster speaking )…
    __________________________________________________________________
    TFLD(t) Moser was asked to make contact with resources ( TNF E58 and BLM E3665 ) at Double Bar A Ranch that I had not been able to meet face-to-face yet. Assignment was to brief them on assignment to Task Force, ensure we had LCES, and assist Chief Willis with prepping the ranch. He was asked to get back to me with any additional needs or concerns.

    I met face-to-face with him ( Moser ) mid-day and he indicated he was comfortable with the plan and operations and briefed me on the ranch defence plan. Later Chief Willis, TLFD(t) Moser and the resources at the Double Bar A Ranch would implement their burn plan and leave the site as the fire moved around and through the ranch.

    In general, I did not work with TNF E58, BLM E3665, or Yuma DOC. They were at all times with Darrell Willis and Cory Moser in the Double Bar A Ranch. I did meet with them at the ranch at one point, and both indicated they were fine, had a plan in place and needed nothing further. Once the main fire impacted the ranch, they implemented their (burn) plan and departed the ranch area. Those resources departed with Willis to my knowledge, and I did not interact with them the rest of the day. I believe they went into Yarnell with Chief Willis to assist with structure protection there.
    __________________________________________________________________

    So Task Force 1 Leader Todd Foster didn’t know that Willis and Moser then took on that NEXT assignment of ‘making a stand’ up on Model Creek Road ( as shown in the Swartz photos and backed up by captured radio traffic )… and Foster also seems to be saying that Cory Moser DID go down to Yarnell with Willis… but in Willis’ own ‘Unit Logs’ in that same document we learn that was NOT the case…

    From Darrell Willis’ Unit Log notes in the same February 27, 2014 document…

    Page 41 ( of 51 pages )…

    1030 – TFLD Foster and Moser Arrived. Foster assigned to Model Creek, Moser to Double Bar A Ranch.
    1300 – Gave command to fire around ranch, resources holding around firing operation.
    1430 – Gave command for resources to leave ranch.
    1445 – Gave command to fire out along East side of main road as the resources evacuated.

    Page 42 ( of 51 pages )…

    Here is where Willis then describes how he arranged for the resources that WERE with him at the Double Bar A Ranch ( Moser included ) to now be used for his ‘new idea’ of ‘burning out’ along Model Creek Road.

    1515 – Discussed tactics with Operations Musser about firing south of Model Creek road to protect south. Approval granted. Assigned Ranch resources to begin firing from the Intersection of Double Bar A Ranch ( road ) WEST along Model Creek Road. Several slop overs occurred but were picked up.
    1600 – Task Force 1 requesting resources to conduct firing operations with Operations in Model Creek Subdivision. E-58 assigned due to their experience level.
    1630 – Firing completed to top of hill towards Model Creek. Fire behavior is moderating.
    1640 – Heard radio conversation about deployment.
    1647 – Operations Able calls me on my cell phone and asks if I heard what is going on. He told me what he knew.

    NOTE: This is actually incorrect. According to Todd Abel… it was definitely Darrell Willis who called HIM circa 1647.

    The NEXT entry ( 1655 ) is where Willis mentions Moser again…

    1655 – I called TF Moser and informed him that I wanted him to take the Division, to hold the fire with resources on Model Creek Road and to pick up any slop overs.

    1715 – I responded to Yarnell and tied in with Operations Able and monitored radio traffic on Incident within an Incident.
    1745 – Tied in with GMIHC lookout McDonough to determine his welfare.
    _________________________________________________________________

    So there’s some PROOF that Cory Moser ( and his white-with-red-stripe ) pickup did NOT go down to the Ranch House Restaurant Parking lot along with Willis… as Task Force 1 Leader Todd Foster suspected.

    Cory Moser is the one who ‘took over’ Willis’ ‘Division’ after deployment so that Willis could head down to Yarnell.

    So it is UNLIKELY that Moser’s ‘white-with-red-stripe’ Prescott vehicle could be any of those ‘white-with-red-stripe’ pickups seen in the Tom Story potos from the Ranch House Restaurant.

    Cory Moser’s complete ‘Resource Order’…

    From the “J – Resource Orders” document…
    Page 135 ( out of 213 )
    ________________________________________________________________
    Request Number: O-9
    Ordered Date/Time: 06/29/13 – 1935 PNT
    From: AZ-ADC (Dispatch) 800-309-7081
    To: AZ-ADC
    Qty: 1
    Resource Requested: TASK FORCE LEADER (TFLD) (T-A)
    Needed Date/Time: 06/30/13 – 0600 PNT
    Deliver To: YARNELL HILL
    From Unit: AZ-ADC
    To Unit: AZ-ADC
    Assigned Date/Time: 06/30/13 – 0755 PNT
    Resource Assigned Unit ID: AZ-PRC
    Resource Assgined: MOSER, CORY (AZ-ADC) (T)
    M/D Ind: M
    Estimated Time of Departure: 06/30/13 – 0800 PNT
    Estimated Time of Arrival: 06/30/13 – 0930 PNT
    Travel Mode: AOV G039EJ
    Financial Code: AZ-A1S-130688
    Special Needs REPORT TO YARNELL FD 22558 S.
    LOOKA WAY, YARNELL AZ. 85362
    Reporting Instructions: ( No entry )
    ________________________________________________________________

    Order confirmation NOTE on page 173 ( of 213 pages )…
    ________________________________________________________________
    Request Number: O-9
    Documentation: Request O-9 – TASK FORCE LEADER (TFLD) – [AZ-A1S 130688] YARNELL HILL has been filled with MOSER, CORY (AZ-ADC) by Robin Hansen (at) AZ-ADC – ROSS.
    Entered By: Robin Hansen (AZ-ADC) 06/30/2013 – 0755 PNT
    ________________________________________________________________

    • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

      Followup…

      In that photograph linked to above in the parent comment… the OTHER ‘License Plate’ number that is clearly readable is on that All-Red with white stripe truck with the RED light bar on the roof parked directly in front of the vehicle where the photo was taken. It has the Unit designator ‘C-81’ on the back.

      That is definitely Mark Sachara’s vehicle.

      His ‘Travel Mode’ entry in his ‘Resource Order’ ALSO happens to list the license plate number of the vehicle he was using that day…

      Travel Mode: AOV G541FG ( License plate )

      Mark Sachara is the Fire Chief of the Ponderosa Fire District and he was hired as yet another “Division Supervisor” ( DIVS ) that day.

      He is the one who will ‘take over’ DIVS Z from Rance Marquez following the deployment.

      Here is Mark Sachara’s actual ‘Resource order’ from the ‘J – Resource Orders’ document in the SAIT FOIA/FOIL release ( including the License Plate number of that RED truck he was drving in his ‘Travel Mode’ entry )…

      Mark Sachara was actually ‘ordered up’ as yet another DIVISION SUPERVISOR ( DIVS/SUP ) and part of the Type 2 SHORT team about 8:20 PM on SATURDAY NIGHT…

      …but apparently didn’t show up in Yarnell until about NOON on Sunday, June 30.

      ( That’s about a half hour after Rance Marquez showed up and was assigned DIVS Z ).

      J – Resource Orders
      PDF page 136 ( of 213 pages )…

      Request Number: O-11
      Ordered Date/Time: 06/29/13 – 2020 PNT
      From: AZ-ADC (Dispatch) 800-309-7081
      To: AZ-ADC
      Qty: 1
      Resource Requested: DIVISION/GROUP SUPERVISOR (DIVS) (T-A)
      Needed Date/Time: 06/30/13 0600 PNT
      Deliver To: YARNELL HILL
      From Unit: AZ-ADC
      To Unit: AZ-ADC
      Assigned Date/Time: 06/30/130948 PNT
      Resource Assigned Unit Id: AZ-PND ( Ponderosa Fire )
      Resource Assighed: SACHARA, MARK (AZ-ADC) [EFF/AD] (T)
      M/D Ind: M
      Estimated Time of Departure: 06/30/13 1000 PNT
      Estimated Time of Arrival: 06/30/13 1200 PNT
      Released Date: (No entry)
      Released To: (No entry)
      Travel Mode: AOV G541FG ( License plate )
      Financial Code: AZ-A1S-130688
      Special Needs: MIDDLE CREEK
      Reporting Instructions: ( No entry )

      Then… on Page 173… Order confirmation note is entered
      at 9:48 AM Sunday morning…

      Request Number: O-11
      Documentation: Request O-11 – DIVISION/GROUP SUPERVISOR (DIVS) – [AZ-A1S-130688] YARNELL HILL has been filled with SACHARA, MARK (AZ-ADC) by SUSAN BURGER (at) AZ-ADC ROSS.
      Entered By: SUSAN BURGER (AZADC) 06/30/2013 0948 PNT

      Then… down on page 210 in the AZ-ADC WildCad printout… it
      gives a ‘Demob date/time’ of July 4 for Mark Sachara which means
      he was on the fire for 4 days and demobbed the morning of July 4.

      Page 210…

      Req Number: 0-11
      Filled Catalog Item Code: DIVS
      Filled Catalog Item Name: DIVISION/GROUP SUPERVISOR
      Filled by Org Unit Code: AZ-ADC
      Res Prov Unit Code: AZ-PND ( Ponderosa Fire District )
      Assignment Name: SACHARA, MARK ( AZ-ADC )
      Mob ETA: Jue 30, 2013 – 12:00:00 PM
      Demob ETD: Jul 4, 2013 – 8:00:00 AM

      • Marti Reed says

        I confess, I’m currently entertaining an imaginative possibility that Musser WAS driving that bigger red Ponderosa Fire truck in the RHR parking lot, after all.

        It’s in all the right places at all the right times.

        Not only does it pass Air2Air at 3:24 PM, it also is, I think, photographed by Rick Tham four times at the Mini Mart (including once with a smartphone, and once leaving) at abt 4:30. If that’s him, he could have made the five miles to the Youth Camp at, say 30 mpg, by 4:36ish.

        He said that by time he got to the Youth Camp, he figured the BR-GM convoy had reached 89. The photo of the convoy driving past the Oak Park Lodge is at 4:32.

        Ponderosa is just a hop skip jump from the west side of Flagstaff, where I used to live. Maybe, for some reason, he was borrowing that truck?

        • Marti Reed says

          Typo Alert. 30 mph.

          And he could have made the 1.72 miles to the RHR parking lot by 4:47 (slipping him right in there between Papich’s photo of Brian, Trew etc getting the news at 4:39 and the beginning of the Reason video at maybe about 4:50.

        • Marti Reed says

          PS The need to map out these (and other) images finally drove me to look at my Google Earth map. Which I had seriously been avoiding since the news that they had put the January post-fire images there.

          Looking at Glen Ilah, which I had spent quite a bit of time exploring and plotting images and locations to, was really heart-breaking.

          But getting over that hurdle is paying off.

  31. Joy A. Collura says

    John Dougherty and people here-
    ok. Here it goes. I went to the 19 area and Glen Ilah community and parts of Yarnell.
    First off I owe all an apology telling you to go there not knowing anyone because I do know so many and it was a near ghosttown and first attempt alot are on vacation, relocated until home is built, relocated forever, or died. I am so sorry to see the losses. I have heard the divisions and depression amongst some there—too bad too. I know some want to just move forward so I guess it is better someone that knows the people reach out versus a stranger. I will do that too. I am focusing to Glen Ilah first then Shrine area then Sickles area. Again, I am so sorry for the 19 who lost their lives and for the homes lost but it was hard to hear the division of how deep their grief is and good to see Kevin is getting along with his home built. He had some very nice things yet he does not reflect on his loss of stuff and home but a very special person in his life; that person he told he would always take real good care of their stuff and it was safe with him so he has guilt in that way. I wish I could introduce folks and so they had a personal feel as well to the aftermath of the YHF to these special folks as I wish I could bring the community to the loved ones who lost those 19 because I wept so deep for Sparkey up there because he cannot visit the area; tears him up (meaning crying and tore; both)
    Looks like I can tell you now WHY noone has come forward in the community with their photos—called “lawyered up” as Buford shared to me today that a 90 page lawsuit is set in action and in that shows the backburn in the pages so the fireworks will come—I just wish and hoped it was out of court. I will keep going up there and spending my hikes there this Summer and let you all know all I learn—LIKE I learned from Sparkey that Amanda Marsh is still hoping to recover Eric Marsh’s wedding ring. Why don’t they let me the desert walker just metal detect that area and tell them what else they forgot to do—I mean you would think an investigator would of done that already—I am so tired. I had a long week last week of many miles and today was just 13 but up and down steep terrain- I feel truly broke up for the 19’s loved ones—sorry, it just hard to go up there and I will be there 3 times this week most likely if the folks who wanted to go show up—and I can tell you I never met the men and its hard for me so I can just imagine folks who did know them or are in the firefighting community. So, I am not a hugger but ({}) HUGS…this is a “big hug” that can be used to add some extra enthusiasm to the standard {} emoticon. I hope anyone locally who does not know let me share this— http://www.changeinthewind.org/the-fence.html — I will be there for sure on the 8th and do my best to be at the 10th and 11th. Does anyone know if they are doing an anniversary celebration—Jolene told me Tom with the old ghosttown is having something on top of the hill so I will have to look into it. Again, the backburn is in the 90 page lawsuit reported to me by Buford—so that may be why noone is showing photos. It does not mean I won’t stop trying—I just noticed because I don’t come by too much but where is Gary Olson and Elizabeth? anyone know?

    • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

      Thank you, Joy. ( ongoing thanks, of course ).

      It seems inconceivable that anyone would have been stupid enough to light a backfire that late in the afternoon with the WINDS doing what they were doing… but I suppose it has always been ‘possible’.

      It certainly would explain a lot… such as people like Gary Cordes always believing they had ‘plenty of time’ to reach the Boulder Springs Ranch ( since Cordes knew exactly what they were doing ) and then being ‘absolutely shocked’ that they ‘didn’t make it’.

      In fact… when Cordes was first ‘informed’ by Engine 59 boss Charlie Reyes that Granite Mountain had deployed he says himself in his interview that his very first reaction was… (quote) “Bullshit!”

      From Gary Cordes’ ADOSH interview…

      Q1 = Barry Hicks
      Q2 = Dave Larsen ( Rest in Peace )
      A = Gary Cordes
      _____________________________________________________
      Q1: Uh, he ( Eric Marsh ) tells air attack that he’s going to his designated, pre-designated safety zone…

      A: Right.

      Q1: …and he doesn’t say where that is, he just says, safety zone?

      A: Right.

      Q1: And so your assumption is…

      A: He had PLENTY OF TIME TO GET THERE, and he was headed to the Boulder Springs Ranch.

      Q1: Okay. Um, so uh, at, at some point um, air uh, during all of this, um, um, how did you uh, how did you hear of the uh, deployments?

      A: That was back when I met with the group uh, before I went in to do the rescues, uh, when I met with Engine 59. It was Engine 59 that told me that they had transmitted over the radio, over air to ground that they had deployed and I, and I, it was Charlie Reyes whose the, whose the engine boss down there and I told him BS, that uh, they didn’t need to deploy ‘cause the safety’s, they were in their safety zone and it was BOMB PROOF and he said NO, they NEVER MADE IT THERE, they got CUT OFF. And that’s when I knew obviously something bad had most likely occurred.

      Q1: Okay. Um, so there was no, there was no question in your mind though that when, when Eric indicated he was going to the safety zone, he wasn’t talking about the black, he was talking about the, the Helm Ranch?

      A: Yes, that would, that was my interpretation, yes.
      ______________________________________________________

      Also… not only is the 1 year ‘anniversary’ of the tragedy approaching… the date is complicated by the fact that June 30, 2014 is also ( apparently ) the cutoff date for when the ‘wrongful death’ claims already filed can actually be re-filed as full lawsuits.

      Since it’s already June 19… something tells me that if ANY of the multiple ‘wrongful death’ claims filed were going to be ‘settled out of court’ according to even the guidelines put forward in the claims themselves for doing so… that would have happened by now.

      • Joy A. Collura says

        my reply to that comment above and on Gary-
        Gary probably never hiked the maze-like terrain and did not know how dense it was so his BS comment to the deploying moment—reckon he had to be there to know what the men were up against. I knew that area. It haunts me what they were up against- now as for the photos and the backburn being in the 90pg lawsuit claim; I am still not going to wait for court. I am going to hike and as time goes by hope I get some to show—
        today I should have Jimmy’s photo—heading out soon for my Congress hike today- keep you posted as I learn it. have a great day.

        • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

          Reply to Joy A. Collura post on
          June 19, 2014 at 12:30 pm

          >> Joy said…
          >> Gary probably never hiked the maze-like terrain and
          >> did not know how dense it was

          I am sure you are right. There is still no definitive proof that Cordes was ever even AT the Boulder Springs Ranch before he told the first Hotshot crew that arrived ( but NOT the second Hotshot crew who would be working the same area ) that the Boulder Sprints Ranch was the ‘pre-determined safety zone’ for people working ‘that area’ west of Yarnell.

          It stands to reason that Cordes MUST have visited the place at least once… since he had been there since 11:30 PM the night before ‘scouting’ that entire area that he was being asked to be SPGS for…

          …but perhaps he only visited the BSR when it was DARK. The BSR itself is on its own little ‘rise’ out there and when you are standing in the cleared area of the ranch itself you do, in fact, have a pretty good ‘view’ of what the vegetation situation is ‘out there’ to the west in that canyon. All the photos taken at the BSR prove this is the case…

          …but if Gary Cordes had ONLY ever been out there to ‘check it out’ in the DARK… then he would still have had no frickin’ idea what things looked like due west of the compound. That might also help explain how he could been SO wrong about the actual SIZE of the ‘safety zone’. He said ( to ADOSH investigators ) that he thought it was 20-30 acres when it was, in fact, no more than 3 to 3 1/2 acres.
          That is not just ‘missing it by a little’. That is WILDLY WRONG.

          Regardless of his failure to be aware of the terrain out in the canyon or the ACTUAL size of the ‘safety zone’… I think Cordes might have never even considered they would be taking that ‘shortcut’.

          When Cordes testified that he was ( himself ) SURE what Marsh meant on the radio and that Marsh WAS headed SOUTH towards the Boulder Springs Ranch… I believe he ALSO was assuming they would be staying on that hiking trail that even Google Maps clearly shows heading all the way to the BSR.

          It’s a shame that the ADOSH investigators did not CLARIFY that with Cordes… but I guess it can be assumed that is what he was thinking. Part of the ‘shock’ for Cordes was probably ALSO learning that they did NOT ‘stay on that hiking trail’ and that they HAD elected to try and ‘cut through that canyon’.

          In all truth, however, we still do NOT know EXACTLY what Cordes ‘showed’ Marsh that morning… even when they WERE ‘looking at a Google Map on an iPad’. It is still perfectly possible that in those brief moments when they WERE doing that… that either Marsh or Cordes just ‘drew their finger’ across the map on the very route that GM ended up taking and agreed that was a legitimate ‘escape route’ to the ranch… without having ANY knowledge of what that ‘route’ would really entail.

          Again… no investigator bothered to ‘clarify’ that with Cordes.

          So you are right, Joy.

          Gary Cordes’ ‘assumption’ that Marsh/Crew had ‘plenty of time’ was (apparently) NOT based on any first-hand knowledge of the very ‘routes’ that he himself had pointed to that morning on a Google map and said ‘those are your pre-determined escape routes’.

          Just one more ‘missed opportunity’ for an intervention that day. Gary Cordes is the only one in fire command who apparently FULLY understood what Marsh MEANT when he announced ( on the radio ) “We’re making our way out our pre-determined escape route”…

          …but Cordes’ own unfamiliarity with the very routes he had told that person were his ‘pre-determined escape routes’ is what caused him to NOT jump in with a radio call along the lines of..

          “DIVSA… this is SPGS2, Cordes… are you SURE you have the TIME to do what you just said you’re planning on doing? I’m not sure you actually DO.”

          That never happened.

          Cordes simply thought they had ‘plenty of time’ and he never bothered to consult with Marsh about ‘the hike’ that he just heard ( over the radio ) was about to be attempted.

          So that’s the tragic ‘irony’ of that day.

          Everyone else in fire command turned out to be simply ‘confused’ about what Marsh ACTUALLY meant with his various ‘announcements’ over the radio… but the one person who was NOT CONFUSED at all… and knew EXACTLY what Marsh meant… was simply assuming ( just like Marsh/Steed and Crew ) that they had ‘plenty of time’… and so no further ‘consultation’ or ‘intervention’ was even attempted.

          • Joy A. Collura says

            “…think Cordes might have never even considered they would be taking that ‘shortcut’.”
            The shortcut was walking the boulders to the Helm’s with fire in sight hence why it haunts me HOW nineteen men dropped in a canyon that was an unusual maze-like dense terrain but there were 4 shortcuts better than that if someone from the fire dept. would share and confirm the photos I saw and is now in Craig Knapp’s 90 page suit—if that area was on fire due to firefighters and not original fire then the 4 shortcuts became none to the Helm’s from the black area. I just have a hard time thinking Marsh decided to drop vs staying high and walking the boulders right to the Helm’s—Donut? Willis? Blue Ridge? Would love your thoughts there. Oh yeah, “lawyered up” seems to be for the homeowners so I am sure its the same for you all-

            • SR says

              Are you talking about splitting the second saddle in the boulders, and then flanking down roughly where the east-facing trees survived in boulders close to the BSR? It’s a valid point. There are so many points throughout the day where people who should have been familiar with local conditions didn’t seem to base their decisions on them. I have irritated people already by talking about standards, but to do it again, if the “escape route” (which, as Marti correctly notes, wasn’t an escape route and was not being used to escape) had been scouted at all earlier in the day, it would have been quickly apparent that it was very rough going.

              I would say I am mystified that GM also didn’t reverse after the first few minutes of the slog, but have seen numerous people in numerous contexts stay committed to similar misadventures. People don’t like to admit mistakes and don’t like to walk back uphill, and since GM wasn’t looking to escape but rather to get to the “structures,” they were probably also reluctant to use the time to reverse.

              • Bob Powers says

                SR–I fully agree with all that you said above.
                Also Joy there was no back firing or firing out according to the investigation and several statements they had planed to but the fire jump containment lines before they could burn out lines. Could not tell you where those statements are but I read them way back.

                • Joy A Collura says

                  I read them too—right but I saw photos and videos and Buford states in the 90pg lawsuit the back burn not just one is in there so that means Knapp has documented information that supports that—otherwise he’d not put it in there—right?

              • FIRE20+ says

                Agree SR. People get stuck on “the plan” and feel the need to stick with it no matter what. Sticking with “the plan” is tunnel vision, like there’s no other option. Similar to prescribed fire…all the time and energy is spent on planning but the implementation feels like it’s secondary, and yet it is the most important phase.

                And Bob, each investigation did not interview every single firefighter assigned to YHF, nor the public. I’ve always believed a burnout was/is possible and will not be surprised if this comes to the surface. This is a normal tactic on wildfires and if the commo wasn’t in sync across the board, well…

                • Bob Powers says

                  You would have thought some body would have turned that up or crews like BR would have said something if they had seen or heard any thing they were running all over the place. You may be right though. I would have thought the investigation would have searched that out as there were rumors early on.

          • Joy A. Collura says

            I met with Jimmy today. I do not discount anyone’s account or photos but they are from 6-29-13 and I am looking for either the earliest first pics on 6-28-13 or 2-9pm on 6-30-13—oh geez…silly Joy. Be right back. When I was in Yarnell I was handed a link to photos from that time from the mother of the kid that went to jail–he took lots of pics those last hours so let me go figure out how to do her personal info to see them. duh. I forgot all about it.

          • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

            Correction for part of that post up above.

            I said…

            >> So that’s the tragic ‘irony’ of that day.
            >>
            >> Everyone else in fire command turned
            >> out to be simply ‘confused’ about what
            >> Marsh ACTUALLY meant with his various
            >> ‘announcements’ over the radio… but the
            >> one person who was NOT CONFUSED
            >> at all… and knew EXACTLY what Marsh
            >> meant… was simply assuming ( just like
            >> Marsh/Steed and Crew ) that they had
            >> ‘plenty of time’… and so no further
            >> ‘consultation’ or ‘intervention’ was even
            >> attempted.

            I didn’t mean to suggest that there isn’t ample evidence people OTHER than Gary Cordes KNEW that Marsh/Steed/Crew were ‘coming down’ and trying to get to Yarnell and/or were ( indeed ) ‘urging him to hurry’ ( as we perhaps hear in the YARNELL-GAMBLE video ). There is such evidence…

            …we just still don’t know WHO any of those ‘other people’ might have been. When I said ‘fire command’ I was only referring to the other members of the ‘official’ Type 2 (Short) team that was ‘officially’ running the fire that afternoon. All of THOSE other ‘fire command’ people ( IC Hall, OPS1 Abel, OPS2 Musser, etc. ) have already testified they thought something OTHER than what Gary Cordes KNEW ( that Marsh WAS ‘coming down’ ).

            It’s tricky to use the phrase ‘fire command’ for what went on that day… because the reality is that that is what was all messed up. There was the ‘Type 2 (Short) Team’ in place that morning… but the rest of the day was this mess involving them trying to ‘ramp up’ the ‘fire command’ to a True Type 2 team… but then punting that attempt and dialing all the up to ‘Type 1’ Incident before the ‘off the radar’ hires even got to Yarnell.

            There are a LOT of people who can be considered active ‘fire command’ circa deployment time that have NEVER been interviewed at all… so we don’t know WHAT they may have known, or thought about Marsh’s radio transmissions or what his intentions really were.

            Maybe some of them knew what Cordes knew and weren’t ‘confused’ at all.

            • calvin says

              And remember Willis’s statement (from the DZ) about…. we knew they were coming in a southerly direction.

              After seeing where Willis is (Model Creek with Sciacca cloning radios?) at the approximate time Marsh tells Able he is moving off the top; I just have to wonder two things.

              1. Was Willis referring to he and Sciacca knew they were headed in a Southerly direction?

              2. Is the conversation Willis overheard ( where GM says they are headed in a Southerly direction) the same conversation we hear part of between Able and Marsh?

              • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

                Yes… definitely… and perhaps some other points…

                1) Is that part of ( or even the SOLE reason ) Sciacca then headed straight down to Yarnell ended up out on Shrine Road?
                Sciacca was on the fire now as ‘Safety Officer’. When he heard ( with Willis ) they were headed SOUTH… perhaps he thought he better go down there and monitor their progress. Remember… by the time Sciacca got down there and saw the GM Crew Carriers coming out with the BR Carriers… Sciacca MISTAKENLY thought the GM crew were already INSIDE the Crew Carriers and he then never bothered to VERIFY his own assumption.

                2) In one of the Panebaker videos… Willis is heard asking OPS1 Todd Abel “Any progress yet?”. This is right around the time of the YARNELL-GAMBLE video. It has never been clear what ‘progress’ Willis was asking about. GM’s ‘hike’ into town?

                3) In the Panebaker video that captures Jason Clawson passing by the camera… he is actively TALKING on his RADIO as he passes the camera right around the exact moment of the YARNELL-GAMBLE video.

                WHO was he talking to? There is no corresponding background radio capture in that same Panebaker video at that moment that might match him actually ‘speaking’ on a TAC channel… so was he talking on the GM ‘intra-crew’ at that point?

                OR… (perhaps) that specific TAC channel transmission was simply not captured in the background of that same Panebaker video… but that really IS Jason Clawson we hear asking Marsh if he could ‘hurry to town’ in the YARNELL-GAMBLE video?

                • FIRE20+ says

                  WTKTT said:
                  “1) Is that part of ( or even the SOLE reason ) Sciacca then headed straight down to Yarnell ended up out on Shrine Road?
                  Sciacca was on the fire now as ‘Safety Officer’. When he heard ( with Willis ) they were headed SOUTH… perhaps he thought he better go down there and monitor their progress. Remember… by the time Sciacca got down there and saw the GM Crew Carriers coming out with the BR Carriers… Sciacca MISTAKENLY thought the GM crew were already INSIDE the Crew Carriers and he then never bothered to VERIFY his own assumption.”

                  Please read SAI Sciacca interview for what it’s worth. Because of the layout of the SAI interviews the time lines are difficult to ascertain the true meaning. From Sciacca SAI “BR was milling around and then loaded in the buggies. The fire clearly was coming into town.” “I didn’t know BR and GM were there.” “DIVS Chief Daryl Willis painted the picture about what was going on.”
                  OK, which is it? Did he know anything about T1 crews being there at all? If Chief Willis painted a true picture then I sure would think he wouldn’t leave out GMIHC. Just saying.

    • Joy A. Collura says

      oh and yes it does seem inconceivable —
      the winds were skunky like the fires and definately squirrely as my kestrel readings were up and down that day—yet at one point it hit 43mph yet keep in mind that I was on mountain top not down in any canyon for that reading

    • Joy A. Collura says

      Thu, Jun 19, 2014 at 8:11 PM I received an email from the lady we saved and her pets in regards to her son that is in jail for the YHF theft and she stated to go to his facebook page but I don’t have an account and it does not allow me access so let me know if anyone who has access to facebook can see the videos and photos because Dakota was there the entire day and night on 6-30-13 and he may be a great place to go and ask ?s to in regards to what he saw when he was not in someone’s burning home—I know you all here never heard but Diane in town had her home on fire and she was gathering all she could and it was getting to be where she HAD TO LEAVE the burning home and she left the safe open not taking it all and well the ones who stole ended up cleaning her home so to speak while it was burning so when she told me about her safe open & at one 1 town meeting this investigator said if you know about a home with a safe open and explained the contents & I raised my hand “yep, Diane”…it was weird to have thought your stuff burned but it was in the evidence dept. of things found on the men—anyways here is a link to Dakota and let’s thank him for the link to his photos while he is in jail. It might b helpful. Who knows. I cannot access them.
      https://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=100002173805540
      Got to Dakota’s site above and click on his album you can download pictures and video.

      • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

        **
        ** THE DAKOTA SLONE PHOTOS AND VIDEOS

        ** THE PHOTOS

        The photos in his Facebook account taken sometime during the early afternoon on June 30, 2013, were all taken from the south side parking lot of a small BUSINESS building right there on Highway 89 in Yarnell at this address…

        152 White Spar Hwy, Yarnell, Arizona

        There is a ‘red’ building there on the WEST side of Highway 89 with a flat, tin roof and gravel parking lots on both the north and south side of the building.

        There is also a large, shiny ‘aluminum can’ style roof vent on the roof of this business which is clearly visible on the right side of some of Slone’s photos.

        The photos were taken from that gravel parking lot just on the south side of the building, and looking NORTHWEST. It appears that someone had just parked their car there in that gravel lot on the south side of the business… and had then gotten up onto either the ROOF of the car/truck or they were simply standing on the hood or the trunk of the vehicle as the took the photos.

        The camera was exactly here…

        34.224053, -112.745824

        Regarding the SMOKE seen in these Dakota Slone photos…

        The smoke cloud seen on that other side of that ridge ( which runs along the north side of Shrine Road ) is exactly where the fire’s smoke cloud should be seen about the middle of the day on June 30. There is really nothing unusual about these photos at all and they match the smoke cloud seen in other photos taken about mid-day in Yarnell and looking to the NORTHWEST.

        There is no EXIF metadata available for these Facebook photos since they are NOT the ‘originals’ and they are simply Facebook ‘reformats’ of the original upload(s)… but the TIME is definitely about mid-afternoon just based on the ‘light-levels’ and the angle of the sun as seen in the photographs.

        The wind had not yet changed direction and that smoke cloud is coming from the HEAD of the fire that was still pushing towards Peeples Valley around that time.

        ** THE VIDEOS

        Taken at various places and times from Saturday
        evening, June 29… through Sunday, June 30, 2013.

        ** FIRST VIDEO – Saturday, June 29, 2013

        Taken the night of Saturday, June 30, shortly after sundown and looking WEST from Yarnell. The progress of the fire matches other photos and videos taken Saturday evening.

        ** SECOND VIDEO – Sunday, June 30, 2013 – circa 4:30 PM

        In the SECOND video at the top of his page… that is a ‘distance view’ of when the fire was cresting the ridge(s) over near Shrine road and perhaps the same moment that all fire resources were evacuating the Shrine area. You can apparently hear that same ‘siren’ that was being sounded by Tyson Esquibel over at the Youth Camp to ‘recall’ his crews from the end of Shrine road ( the Harper Canyon end ) that is ALSO heard in the Jerry Thompson videos AND in Blue Ridge Hotshot McCord’s YARNELL-GAMBLE video shot at exactly 1627 ( 4:27 PM ). He was standing in the driveway of a house at 11128 Crest Way in Yarnell… which is actually just one block EAST ( up the hill ) and one block SOUTH of the Yarnell Fire Station on ‘Looka Way’. He appears to have been standing exactly HERE at the top of the driveway at this address when he shot this video…

        34.220900, -112.744835

        NOTE: When he ZOOMS in to the NORTHWEST and towards the Shrine Road area in this video… you will see the white ‘church spire’ of the ‘Community Presbyterian’ church where he is going to stop and shoot his NEXT video not long after this one.

        ** THIRD VIDEO – Sunday afternoon – circa 4:40 PM

        His THIRD video… where he is shouting “It’s now entering town” is downright scary. There are firefronts EVERYWHERE on the horizon as he shoots due WEST.
        This video was shot at pretty much the same location as his SECOND video… up there near that driveway on Crest Way.

        ** FOURTH VIDEO – Sunday afternoon – circa 4:45 PM

        His FOURTH video ( the one where he never holds the camera still ) is equally scary. It looks like he probably WAS up there on ‘Crest Way’ on the EAST side of Highway 89 for the previous video… since they now appear to be ‘evacuating’ via the north end of Crest Way and they have stopped on the road right where the ‘Community Presbyterian’ Church is to shoot this video. They are shooting to the SOUTHWEST, towards the box canyon and across the parking lot of the church. This could actually be right around time of deployment. The camera is too shaky and the footage too ‘blurry’ to really make much of anything out in the VIDEO itself but some ‘still’ shots taken from the video frames might actually be ‘in focus’. The video camera was exactly HERE when this video was taken…

        34.223003, -112.744509

        That’s right at that point where Crest Way turns into Tabletop Way as it curls east and meets Highway 89.

        There are more videos… but they appear to all be AFTER the time of deployment.

        More later…

        • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

          Forgot to mention…

          All in all… the *new* Dakota Slone photos don’t seem to be all that significant… but the VIDEOS are actually quite important.

          They show the fire progression into Yarnell from an ELEVATED vantage point to the EAST of town… and a lot of the actual FIRELINES are now clearly visible instead of just a bunch of ‘smoke clouds’ as seen in most of the other photos/videos taken from ‘in town’ that afternoon.

          They really need to be studied further.

        • Joy A Collura says

          OK. great comment.

          I also was told he has more photos/videos on his phone so if I get those—let you know

  32. WantsToKnowTheTruth says

    **
    ** THE VIDEO THAT SHOWS CLAWSON, HULBURD AND YOWELL
    ** VEHICLES UP AT THE ICP CIRCA 3:15 PM

    Marti… that video that we thought only existed on YouTube is, in fact,
    in Mr. Dougherty’s online folder.

    It is sort of ‘hidden’ ( along with the other one with ‘blues’ song playing )
    in the following Dropbox folder…

    In the ADOSH Yarnell Hill Investigation folder…
    / Photos and Video / ASFD Photos / Miscellaneous Photos

    Here is a direct link to it…

    https://www.dropbox.com/sh/20inrene9tcx74a/AACltJPUFfvmZqibRwGSJwWLa/ADOSH%20Yarnell%20Hill%20Investigation/Photos%20and%20Video/ASFD%20Photos/Miscellaneous%20Photos#lh:null-VID_20130630_151521_240.wmv

    The other video we also thought only existed on YouTube with the ‘blues’
    song playing and filmed from inside that engine going WEST on Hays
    Ranch Road is also in this same ‘Miscellaneous Photos’ folder.

    Also… There IS a Panebaker video that captures Clawson, Hulburd and
    Yowell heading EAST on Hays Ranch Road and going down to Yarnell.

    It is one of the ‘regular’ Panebaker ( shorter ) videos and it does, in fact,
    ‘shoot the gap’ when there was a battery swapout in-progress with
    the Air-To-Air video setup.

    Panebaker ( Non-Air-To-Air channel ) video…

    20130630_161620_VLAT_split_1_EP

    At the very START of the video… Jason Clawson has already
    come over the hill in that aquamarine PNF Pickup towing a
    trailer and his UTV. Hulburd and Yowell are on the road behind him.

    At +9 seconds… Clawson is dead-center in the video.

    Then Hulburd passes the camera also towing his UTV… and
    KC ‘Bucky’ Yowell follows Hulburd in the white pickup with no
    trailer or UTV. They all have their lights on.

    They are going pretty slow because as the previous Panebaker
    video showed… there was some mobile home heading EAST that
    was backing up traffic on Hays Ranch Road.

    KC ‘Bucky’ Yowell falls behind a bit and actually doesn’t exit the
    left side of the video until +36 seconds.

    NOTE: This is the video that contains all the background communication
    with Eric Marsh and Jesse Steed. At +48 seconds in this video is when
    we here SOMEONE in fire command ( DIVS Mark Sachara? ) say on
    the radio…

    “Granite Mountain… what’s your STATUS right now?”

    …and then he gets that ‘dodgy’ status report back from both Marsh and Steed.

    More later…

    • Marti Reed says

      Ahhhhhhhh

      I was in the wrong Photos and Videos folder!! I was in just the basic one and hadn’t even see this in the ADOSH FOIA collection.

      Again, a site map of those Dropbox folders would come in very handy, because they’re posted in different reports.

      Thank you!!

    • Marti Reed says

      So. I found their truck on Panebaker Air2Air. It’s on 1544_EP. It goes by at +10:44,03 or 3:26PM. It’s the white double-cab State Fire truck with panel-type boxes on the sides. It had previously passed in the opposite direction in 1544_EP at + 1:18,26 or 3:16OM.

      Who would think that plain buttoned-up truck had such perfect taste for the appropriate music for the day?

      • Marti Reed says

        The two videos are really a great and useful video “panorama” of that whole Hays Ranch Road Scene, from the Incident Command Center to 89 and back again.

        • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

          Speaking of ‘panoramas’…

          ** PANORAMA PHOTO SHOWING
          ** PNF VEHICLES AT ICP CIRCA 3:22 PM.

          In the same ADOSH ‘Miscellaneous photos’ folder…

          / Photos and Videos /
          ASFD Photos / Miscellaneous Photos /

          Photo 26.JPG….

          https://www.dropbox.com/sh/20inrene9tcx74a/AACltJPUFfvmZqibRwGSJwWLa/ADOSH%20Yarnell%20Hill%20Investigation/Photos%20and%20Video/ASFD%20Photos/Miscellaneous%20Photos#lh:null-26.JPG

          This one is fascinating.

          It’s a FULL PANORMA basically totally ‘EAST to WEST’ and taken in the parking lot of the Model Creek School ICP itself at (supposedly) 3:22 PM.

          At the extreme far left of the photo… you can see ALL those vehicles that are also seen in the ‘video’ shot from the truck that was leaving the ICP. They are all ‘assembled’ over there on the side of the road just as you see them being ‘passed by’ in the video.

          Those 3 vehicles also seen in the ‘Helemt Cam’ video belonging to Bea Day Type 2 team PNF hires Jason Clawson, Aaron Hulburd, and KC ‘Bucky’ Yowell are all right there on the side of the road.

          Also… that ‘red pickup’ ( that says Ponderosa Fire on the door and belongs to Mark Sachara ) is also there… it’s just ‘hiding’ a little. It is actually ‘underneath the tree’ that there over on the left side of the panorama.

          There are actually TONS of photos in this particular folder that you won’t see anywhere else. Some VERY interesting shots ( like the one taken of Willis’ truck up-close and personal while it was up there at the intersection of Model Creek Road and Double-Bar-A Ranch ( Hays Ranch ) road. )

          Also TONS of photos from the memorial ‘processions’ with vehicles lined up all over the sides of the roads. Most of the same vehicles seen in Yarnell on Sunday are in these photos as well.

          More later.

          • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

            Forgot to mention… the PANORAMA photo above is *extremely* high-res so if you ‘view original’ you can see amazing detail even in the vehicles that appear ‘far away’.

            Correction: That ‘red pickup’ isn’t actually ‘under’ the tree at the far left… it is simply being ‘hidden’ by the tree. It is actually parked in the open some yards beyond the tree.

            Also… look to the EXTREME RIGHT of this PANORAMA. It actually captures the ‘vehicles’ that were parked under that limited ‘roofed parking garage’ outside the ICP.

            I would imagine these were the ‘primo’ parking spots since they are right there near the door of the ICP and the ‘roof’ was providing ash protection… so anyone allowed to park UNDER that tin roof was probably a ‘big dog’.

            One of the AZ State Fire trucks that appears later in the RHR parking lot is there under that parking roof…. down on the end.

            Also… that *might* be Todd Abel standing out there in the field next to that BLACK pickup.
            Looks like the same fellow that is seen later with the ‘famous mustache’ and the yellow helmet walking towards the Brush Truck in the Tom Story photo(s) taken at the RHR parking lot.

            • Marti Reed says

              Re Todd and the black truck via the pano.

              This photo was taken at 3:22:30 PM.

              There are a number of black double cab trucks on this fire. Some have chrome door handles, some don’t. The one in the RHR parking lot has chrome door handles.
              as this one does.

              There’s another photo that was taken at 3:00.50 PM that has this truck in it also, in the same spot. This photo has Tony Sciacca’s truck front and center. I don’t remember which folder I found it in ATM but it is IMG_20130630_150050_919.jpg.

              I don’t know ATM if Todd Abel was at the ICP during this time.

              The only similar black truck to pass the Air2Air camera does so in 1716 at + 2:47,01 or 4:47. Nine minutes before Darrell Willis passes it.

              • Marti Reed says

                I just don’t think, via his interview, that Todd Abel was at the ICP during that time framework.

            • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

              Reply to Marti Reed post on
              June 18, 2014 at 7:38 pm said:

              >> Marti said…
              >> Copy!

              I am also just going to ‘rattle off’ a number of other ‘fascinating’ photos in that ‘ASFD Photos / Miscellaneous Photos’ folder just in *case* you hadn’t spotted them.

              Apolgies in advance if you have ( spotted them already ).

              Here’s the first one…

              Byron Kimball (??) actually leaning on the back of his ‘blue pickup’ with a pretty good profile of him. If that really is him… he is OLDER than I thought…

              https://www.dropbox.com/sh/20inrene9tcx74a/AACltJPUFfvmZqibRwGSJwWLa/ADOSH%20Yarnell%20Hill%20Investigation/Photos%20and%20Video/ASFD%20Photos/Miscellaneous%20Photos#lh:null-IMG_20130630_141459_148.jpg

              Dark Navy Blue short-sleeved shirt.. TAN Khakis, sunglasses, grey hair and what’s looks to be YACM…

              ( Yet Another Cowboy Mustache )

                  • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

                    Marti… sorry… I missed this one yesterday.

                    My bad. I’ve been deferring to what you have researched on ‘the blue truck’ but I totally mis-remembered who you were assigning it to.

                    Yes. Probably Marquez’s and not Kimball.

                    BTW: I can’t find a reference picture of Marquez anywhere. We still really don’t know what he looked like.

                    So that COULD be him leaning on that truck up there at the ICP.
                    Dunno.

                  • Marti Reed says

                    I hate these narrow thread. So I’ll try 2 keep it short.

                    I’ve always started with IMG_3952 and Yarnell-Papich006 from the Papich folder. That has to be Cougan and Rance meeting with Cordes near the dozer line. Ties with two of Joy’s pix.

                    Then the video USB YARNELL HILL 21 from the Forest Service folder in the earlier Dropbox mix.

                    They’re from the back, but they stay together most of the day.

                    Googled Rance enuff to know he was in Phoenix. Found a pic of a Rance Marquez on one of those Google directory sites. Don’t know if that’s him, tho. But a resemblance.

                    That grey-haired guy doesn’t even come close.

                    Big problem I discovered Wednesday, tho.

                    That blue truck passes the Air2Air around 4PM.

                    Who knows???

                  • Marti Reed says

                    Also, in the Forest Service Photo 0605, from above the van procession, the Rance and Cougan trucks are together.

              • Marti Reed says

                And, yeah, once I finally found that whole collection, I downloaded the photos you’re describing. That Miscellaneous folder seems to be a combination of some of the others with a few thrown in that aren’t in the other folders (like the pano). Quite a jumble.

                I’m screen recording right now, so can’t look, but that red truck that looks like the one in the RHR parking lot isn’t actually it. It says Yavapai Fire, not Ponderosa Fire. At least it does in the video as that crew passes by it.

            • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

              Next one…

              Close-up of Willis’ truck taken at 3:47 WHILE he was up on Model Creek road as shown in the Swartz photo(s).

              This was taken AS the retardant drops were happening and Willis and some engines were trying to ‘make a stand’ up there on Model Creek Road.

              https://www.dropbox.com/sh/20inrene9tcx74a/AACltJPUFfvmZqibRwGSJwWLa/ADOSH%20Yarnell%20Hill%20Investigation/Photos%20and%20Video/ASFD%20Photos/Miscellaneous%20Photos#lh:null-28.JPG

              Willis’ ‘Prescott Fire Department’ pickup is right there front and center.
              License plate can be clearly read…
              G-039EJ

              There’s a road-sign in the photo. Clearly readable.
              It says…
              MODEL CREEK RD
              DOUBLE BAR A RANCH RD

              They are at the INTERSECTION where these roads meet and where they are also shown ‘making a stand’ in some of the Swartz photos.

              NOTE: ‘DOUBLE BAR A RANCH RD’ is the old name for ‘Hays Ranch Road’. The name of the road changed after the last purchase of the Ranch but street signs hadn’t changed yet as of June 30, 2013.

              OTHER engines in this photo…

              Another vehicle in front of Willis.
              BIG LINE GREEN Engine in front of THAT vehicle. That might be the same ‘green engine’ seen in the Swartz photo.

              Red Ford Pickup with white stripes
              C-81 Unit ID on the back.
              ‘Ponderosa Fire’ logo on back.
              Is this the same ‘Mark Sachara’, Ponderosa Fire Chief? red-truck… or someone ELSE who was there from ‘Ponderosa Fire’ that day? Dunno.
              red / white / red light bar on top.
              License plate clearly readable…
              G-541FG

              BIG TRUCK ( ENGINE? )
              Photo was taken from inside cab of ‘International’ (BIG) truck,
              which matches a photo from the other ‘Larz Garcia’ folder one
              directory back from this ‘Miscellaneous Photos’ folder.
              The radio mounted on the dash is identical to what is seen in the ‘Larz Garcia’ photo(s) and the coaxial cable and connectors are identical.

              • calvin says

                The truck with the tag G-039EJ is not the same truck seen in Swartz photos or Tom Story photos. It does not have the same toolbox and it has a light bar mounted on the top of the cab

                • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

                  Yes… thanks calvin.
                  I was ‘looking too fast’.

                  That isn’t Willis’ pickup.

                  It’s Cory Moser’s.
                  License plate matches
                  his ‘resource order’.

                  See new post above about Cory Moser.

              • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

                Followup…

                In that photograph linked to above in the parent comment… the OTHER ‘License Plate’ number that is clearly readable is on that All-Red with white stripe truck with the RED light bar on the roof parked directly in front of the vehicle where the photo was taken. It has the Unit designator ‘C-81’ on the back.

                That is definitely Mark Sachara’s vehicle.

                His ‘Travel Mode’ entry in his ‘Resource Order’ ALSO happens to list the license plate number of the vehicle he was using that day…

                Travel Mode: AOV G541FG

                Mark Sachara is the Fire Chief of the Ponderosa Fire District and he was hired as yet another “Division Supervisor” ( DIVS ) that day.

                He is the one who will ‘take over’ DIVS Z from Rance Marquez following the deployment.

                See a longer post about this not too far above that goes with the one identifying the Prescott Fire pickup in this photo as definitely Cory Moser’s vehicle.

            • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

              Next one…

              This is actually one child directory back in the ‘Larz Garcia’ folder but appears to be the same ‘engine’ as the ‘Willis truck’ photo above and in the same location.

              Same radio and coax cables on dashboard.

              https://www.dropbox.com/sh/20inrene9tcx74a/AADbR2wJoDMODyRNy4GvkhiZa/ADOSH%20Yarnell%20Hill%20Investigation/Photos%20and%20Video/ASFD%20Photos/Larz%20Garcia#lh:null-Picture%20009.jpg

              He appears to be CLIMBING up to that same ‘Model Creek Road’ and ‘Double-Bar-A Ranch Road’ intersection where the previous picture will then be taken.

              He is FOLLOWING that red pickup ( Mark Sachara? ) that will also then be seen at the intersection.

              • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

                Followup on photo above…

                For a moment… I thought this ‘big truck’ with pics being taken from the ‘inside’ was the same one as the one with the ‘blues’ playing and heading WEST on Hays Ranch Road…

                …but the radios mounted on the dashboards don’t seem to quite match. Same make/model, maybe… but the coax connectors are different.

                Then I saw that you had already ‘found’ that ‘blues’ truck heading west on Hays Ranch Road…

                On June 18, 2014 at 11:37 am
                Marti Reed said:
                ________________________
                So. I found their truck on
                Panebaker Air2Air. It’s on
                1544_EP. It goes by at
                +10:44,03 or 3:26PM. It’s the white double-cab State Fire
                truck with panel-type boxes on
                the sides. It had previously
                passed in the opposite direction in 1544_EP at +
                1:18,26 or 3:16OM.

                Who would think that plain
                buttoned-up truck had such
                perfect taste for the
                appropriate music for the day?
                _________________________

                So I don’t think that IS the same ‘truck’ we then see up fighting the fire on Model Creek Road. That one says ‘International’ all over the Glove Box and would indicate a LARGER vehicle.

                  • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

                    Copy.

                    BTW: That ‘red’ vehicle with Unit ID of C-81 in this ‘smoky photo’ is most definitely Mark Sachara… who would take over DIVSZ from Marquez later that day.

                    The license plate number matches exactly what is on Mark Sachara’s actual resource order in that “J – Resource Orders” document.

                    Page 136…
                    Request Number: O-11
                    Mark Sachara
                    Travel Mode: AOV G541FG ( License plate )

  33. WantsToKnowTheTruth says

    **
    ** MARK SACHARA – ADDITIONAL TYPE 2 SHORT TEAM DIVS ON
    ** SUNDAY AND OWNER OF THAT RED DOUBLE-DOOR PICKUP.

    I’m floating this one to the top since no more room down below to
    add additional information…

    >> WantsToKnowTheTruth on June 17, 2014 at 10:12 pm said:
    >>
    >> Marti… again… apologies for NOT making it clear that the video
    >> with the ‘Clawson, Hulburd and Yowell’ vehicles was, in fact, that
    >> one sitting on Youtube in EN’s account.
    >>
    >> It appeared BEFORE the Dropbox even came online.
    >>
    >> And YES… there are TONS of vehicles seen in this video… including
    >> EXACTLY who is parked right up there next to the Model Creek School.
    >>
    >> We also see that ‘red truck’ in this video…
    >>
    >> At exactly +33 seconds ( and before we get to see Clawson, Hulburd and
    >> Yowell’s vehicles )… I believe that is the same exact red double-door pickup
    >> we are GOING to see later at the RHR with that group of FFs ( apparently )
    >> consulting with Brendan McDonough and looking at a MAP spread out on the
    >> hood of it.
    >>
    >> It appears to say ‘Ponderosa Fire’ in GOLD letters on the driver’s side door.
    >>
    >> Mark Sachara is the current ‘Fire Chief’ of the ‘Ponderosa Fire Distrcit’ in
    >> Bellemont, Arizona ( Cococino County ).
    >>
    >> Mark Sachara was THERE in Yarnell that day… and is the one who took over
    >> Division Z from Rance Marquez after the burnover.
    >>
    >> Mark Sachara went on to be officially listed as ‘DIVS Z’ for Yarnell in the
    >> following day’s Incident Action Plan ( IAP ).
    >>
    >> In that IAP… Mark Sachara is also officially listed as having been part of Todd
    >> Abel’s “Incident Within An Incident” management team from the previous day,
    >> after the burnover.
    >>
    >> From just one ( of many ) lists of current Arizona Fire Departments/Districts…
    >>
    >> Ponderosa Fire Department
    >> P.O. Box 16359, Bellemont, AZ 86015
    >> (928) 773-8933
    >> Mark Sachara, Fire Chief

    And here is Mark Sachara’s actual ‘Resource order’ from the ‘J – Resource Orders’ document in the SAIT FOIA/FOIL release.

    Mark Sachara was actually ‘ordered up’ as yet another DIVISION SUPERVISOR
    ( DIVS/SUP ) and part of the Type 2 SHORT team about 8:20 PM on SATURDAY
    NIGHT…

    …but apparently didn’t show up in Yarnell until about NOON on Sunday, June 30.

    That’s about a half hour after Rance Marquez showed up and was
    assigned DIVS Z. Sachara would then replace Marquez as DIVSZ after the
    deployment… ( and also be part of Abel’s IWI team? ) but we still have no frickin’ idea what Sachara’s real assignment was up UNTIL that time… or what level of ‘engagement’ he had with anyone else that day.

    At least we KNOW that DIVS hire Rance Marquez showed up around 11:30 and was at least given an assignment that day ( Division Z ). Marquez then simply DISAPPEARED, without ever being ‘relieved’ of that position…

    …but in Sachara’s case… we still have NO IDEA what he was even SUPPOSED to be doing that day… yet there is his red pickup right in the thick of things at the Ranch House Restaurant and (apparently) the place where the ‘map meeting’ with Brendan McDonough actually took place ( on the hood of his truck ).

    Also… could HE be the mysterious voice that actually asks ( circa 4:16 PM )…

    “Granite Mountain… what’s your STATUS right now?”

    …smack in the middle of the 30 minute ‘blackout’ when the SAIR said no
    one in management had ANY ‘verifiable contact’ with Granite Mountain?

    SOMEONE kicked right in at 4:16 PM after Bravo 33 said to Ground command…
    “CALL them and see if DIVSA is actually WITH them ( Granite Mountain )” and did just that. They called GM and asked for status… and THEN fulfilled B33’s request and asked Marsh directly (quote) “…are you WITH Granite Mountain right now?”.

    That’s when Marsh DODGED the question and answered with something like…
    “Just checkin’ it out to see where we gonna jump out at”.

    Could that have been the free-floating DIV/SUP Mark Sachara asking
    Marsh those questions?

    Here are Mark Sachara’s ‘resource orders’…

    J – Resource Orders
    PDF page 136 ( of 213 pages )…

    Request Number: O-11
    Ordered Date/Time: 06/29/13 – 2020 PNT
    From: AZ-ADC (Dispatch) 800-309-7081
    To: AZ-ADC
    Qty: 1
    Resource Requested: DIVISION/GROUP SUPERVISOR (DIVS) (T-A)
    Needed Date/Time: 06/30/13 0600 PNT
    Deliver To: YARNELL HILL
    From Unit: AZ-ADC
    To Unit: AZ-ADC
    Assigned Date/Time: 06/30/130948 PNT
    Resource Assigned Unit Id: AZ-PND ( Ponderosa Fire )
    Resource Assighed: SACHARA, MARK (AZ-ADC) [EFF/AD] (T)
    M/D Ind: M
    Estimated Time of Departure: 06/30/13 1000 PNT
    Estimated Time of Arrival: 06/30/13 1200 PNT
    Released Date: (No entry)
    Released To: (No entry)

    Then… on Page 173… Order confirmation note is entered
    at 9:48 AM Sunday morning…

    Request Number: O-11
    Documentation: Request O-11 – DIVISION/GROUP SUPERVISOR
    (DIVS) – [AZ-A1S-130688] YARNELL HILL has been filled with
    SACHARA, MARK (AZ-ADC) by SUSAN BURGER (at) AZ-ADC ROSS.
    Entered By: SUSAN BURGER (AZADC) 06/30/2013 0948 PNT

    Then… down on page 210 in the AZ-ADC WildCad printout… it
    gives a ‘Demob date/time’ of July 4 for Mark Sachara which means
    he was on the fire for 4 days and demobbed the morning of July 4.

    Page 210…

    Req Number: 0-11
    Filled Catalog Item Code: DIVS
    Filled Catalog Item Name: DIVISION/GROUP SUPERVISOR
    Filled by Org Unit Code: AZ-ADC
    Res Prov Unit Code: AZ-PND ( Ponderosa Fire District )
    Assignment Name: SACHARA, MARK ( AZ-ADC )
    Mob ETA: Jue 30, 2013 – 12:00:00 PM
    Demob ETD: Jul 4, 2013 – 8:00:00 AM

    • Marti Reed says

      Rance Marquez didn’t just DISAPPEAR.

      His assignment was to go “do situational awareness” in preparation for the next day and, then, to report back to Incident Command. Which is exactly what he did.

      He checked out the scene, reached a stalemate with Eric, and then went back to ICP to report to either Roy Hall or Paul Musser. That’s exactly what he was supposed to do.

      Problem was, when got to ICP, the place was in a state of chaos, and neither Hall nor Musser were remotely interested in what he had to report. So he and Cougan went “free-lancing” as mostly EVERYBODY on that side of the fire was also doing, according to several people.

      And I’m not even particularly all that upset with Bea Day and “her” crew. Especially given the whole context. I did a bit of research on her. She, and her team, are extremely highly regarded. They were the Incident Management Team on the Thompson Ridge Fire (which GM fought), just before Tony Sciacca was Incident Commander on the Doce Fire (which Granite Mountain fought), just before the Yarnell Fire.

      They were, as a team, assigned to this fire, and then that assignment was cancelled, (while Glen Joki was having to get help from them anyway because the ROSS System was failing them) without, apparently, them knowing it, as they were putting themselves together.

      That whole day was just chaos. That’s not Bea Day’s Team’s fault. And then, she and some of her team stayed on in Prescott and managed the whole aftermath there. For which they were duly beloved. I haven’t witnessed that there were any hard feelings among members of either team towards the other in any of that day or afterwards. (She’s from Rio Rancho, New Mexico, so now I know she’s a neighbor…more small world stuff).

      On the other hand, they definitely should have been interviewed, by both the SAIT and ADOSH. That was a HUGE oversight, given the importance of their activities on this fire. And it does give their presence the appearance of flying somewhat undercover. But I don’t think they really were. And a LOT of people on that fire were used to working with that team, so they just started doing it when they showed up.

      And it may very well be that the “back-ordering” paperwork-filling-out was somewhat chaotic and sketchy, because the whole dispatch process, by that time was hugely focused on getting the relatively HUGE Type 1 Team dispatched and up and running.

      That’s my two cents anyway. And I still agree, the Clawson part of that crew was very likely waiting for Granite Mountain to show up over there on Shrine Road, needing a lift out, when they didn’t and the deployment did, instead.

      More Shakespeare.

      • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

        Marti… agree totally. No one was ‘pissed off’ when Bea Day’s people started to show up and were jumping in.

        Not really.

        Even ‘big dog’ Roy Hall told incoming ‘big dog’ Tony Sciacca everything was ‘a mess’ as Bea’s people started showing up.

        From Tony Sciacca’s ADOSH interview…
        ________________________________________________
        Tony Sciacca: Came in and tied in with Roy. And I said, you know, asked him what he had and he said, “Well look it, I got a mess.”
        ________________________________________________

        It is ASTOUNDING, however, to keep discovering ( as we chip away at the details ) how fully ‘engaged’ Bea’s ‘people’ were as we lead up to deployment… even though their actual work orders ( and reasons for officially/legally being involved ) had either ‘never gone through’ or were outright ‘cancelled’ before they even started showing up.

        They were ALL ( technically ) ‘freelancing’ at that point.

        Whether they were AWARE of that, or not, ( that they were ‘at work’ without valid ‘work orders’ in the system ) remains a big part of the total mystery.

        They were ‘doing their own thing’… and yes… they WERE certainly trying to ‘help’. Everyone was… but that’s not really the point.

        The BIG question is… in the course of ‘doing their own thing’ and ‘just trying to help’… did this ‘skunk team’ have their OWN contact with Granite Mountain and/or try to exert their OWN ‘influence’ over Marsh and Steed that day.

        Given who they were ( and where they were from ) and their familiarity with Marsh / Steed… it is MOST likely that Jason Clawson ( and/or ALL of them? ) had BOTH the GM private intra-crew frequency AND Marsh’s cell phone number ( perhaps even BOTH of Marsh’s cellphone numbers since their is testimony that Marsh ALWAYS carried TWO cellphones with him ).

        We are looking at a situation here where suddenly there was a THIRD fully functional and engaged ‘Field OPS’ working the fire ( Clawson ) who THOUGHT he had full authority to act in that capacity.

        We don’t even know if Clawson heard Musser talking to Marsh about GM’s ‘availability’. If he didn’t… he most certainly might have done exactly what Musser did and make his own ‘availability check’ directly to Marsh.

        Difference being… the inbund Bea Day people really didn’t receive any inbound breifings to speak of so they were ALL even more clueless about actual crew locations on the south end than Musser was when he made is ‘availability checks’.

        In other words… Clawson might have known that GM was ‘back there somewhere’ and under the impression they had been working side-by-side with Blue Ridge…

        …but Clawson probably had NO IDEA how ‘far away’ they really where.

        That’s why Clawson *MAY* have made his own request for Marsh to get GM ‘back to town’ ASAP… and then at 1627 ( 4:27 PM ) was calling him again ( in the YARNELL-GAMBLE video ) and wondering ‘where they were’ and why they hadn’t shown up in town yet.

        Marsh’s exasperation when he responds with “They’re comin’ from the heel of the fire” has ALWAYS sounded like he was frustrated with whoever was doing this URGING to ‘hurry up’ at 1627 NOT knowing that the original request for them to move involved a loooong hike. It might also have been just confusing to Marsh ( or he didn’t consider the fact ) that a THIRD OPS would now be working Yarnell and would NOT have been fully briefed about actual crew locations…. but that (seems to have been ) the reality with Clawson, et. al.

        I mean… this is like researching a plane crash where no one can figure out why the pilot might have made some choices that led to the crash… and then suddenly discovering there *MIGHT* have actually been another set of ‘air traffic controllers’ talking ( privately? ) to the pilot…

        …but NONE of those ‘other people’ were ever interviewed about their involvement that day.

        It’s really quite unbelievable.

        Maybe none of the ‘skunk team’ ( Bea Day’s obsoleted people ) had any contact with Marsh at all…

        …but given a lot of the evidence… it seems VERY likely that they did… and that itself should have warranted a FULL set of interviews of ALL of these ‘off the radar’ hires.

        More later…

        • Marti Reed says

          I’m gonna respond a little bit. but only a little, because I’m listening to, while re-reading, a BUNCH of related interviews.

          I just don’t want to use, at this point, pejoratives like “skunk team.”

          We still don’t know, exactly, what kind of team they were. i don’t think anybody does.

          Three things I’ve been thinking about.

          No team can actually “take charge” until they have officially transitioned into command. Roy Hall’s team wasn’t officially “in charge” until 10 AM-ish (not looking at notes). Although his newly chosen (before 10AM) Field Ops was briefing Eric about the strategy before then. So I guess it can be a bit fuzzy. But Eric was still not officially DivS until that 10AM transfer.

          There wasn’t even that level of clearness about Bea Day’s team taking command of the fire at the time they started arriving. There was no time determined about when that would happen. That order could have even meant “tomorrow,” or even later, since, even after the Type 1 Team was ordered, it didn’t even transfer into command until 1800 on TUESDAY. But Roy Hall is clear he wanted it ASAP.

          So you are correct that, even as that
          central West Team Zone team was showing up because Roy Hall realized early on that this fire needed more resources, they hadn’t officially been authorized to assume any POWER or AUTHORITY.

          And even though, apparently, there was a lot of “free-lancing” going on on the east side, any kind of “pressure” placed on a hotshot crew on the west side, or it’s DivS, to leave its “assignment” (even a pretty fruitless one at that point) without even knowing it’s relative location would be pretty beyond-the-pale. That’s pretty different from “Let’s move this enfpgine over here.” Of course, we don’t even KNOW if that even HAPPENED. They weren’t interviewed.

          Which leads to my second thought. Both Bea and the Clawson crew work for the US Forest Service. If ADOSH wanted to interview them, they would have most likely come under that gag order. I don’t see any record of ADOSH trying to interview them. But who knows??

          Third. I only remember seeing somewhere that someone saw Bea Day on a UTV. I don’t remember where that was. She lives near Albuquerque. It would have taken quite awhile for her to get there, unless she happened to have been closer. So I’m currently pretty dubious she was even there, yet.

          Back to the interviews.

          • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

            Reply to Marti Reed post on
            June 18, 2014 at 6:11 pm

            >> Marti said…
            >>
            >> I just don’t want to use, at this point,
            >> pejoratives like “skunk team.”

            You are right. My apologies. I was typing way too fast and that is just what ‘came out’.
            I’d gotten tired of referring to them as ‘freelancers’ ( because that isn’t really the correct way to describe them either )… so I guess I was just search for a new generic term to use for all these ‘Type 2’ off-the-radar hires whose orders either never went through or were actually cancelled by the time they even ‘got there’ that day.

            >> Marti also said…
            >> We still don’t know, exactly, what kind of
            >> team they were. i don’t think anybody
            >> does.

            I don’t even think THEY really knew, to be honest. It was all such a cluster f**k as they were showing up and NOT what they expected to find that I think they were all just as confused as anyone else that day.

            But they were still firemen… and they were THERE. They were just trying to find a way to ‘help’. Example: There is no evidence that anyone who was part of that morning ‘off the radar’ backfill hiring by Bea Day who showed up later and found out their orders never ‘went through’ said ‘f**k it’… and just LEFT.

            There is still evidence in the Dispatch logs that Bea Day DID send Roy Hall an email with ALL of the ‘off the radar’ people she had told to ‘head for Yarnell’… but I don’t think anyone ( investigators included ) has ever seen that email… or that full list of names.

            So no… we don’t know WHAT to call this ‘team’ that was assembling all afternoon becuase of Bea Day’s ‘off the radar’ hiring.

            You can’t say they were TRULY ‘self-dispatching’ ( they were ASKED to be there ) and you can’t say they were TRULY ‘freelancing’ ( some of them WERE given ‘official’ assignments and they performed them ) but we also still don’t know if we can say they were officially ( and from a legal perspective ) ‘working the fire’ if their work orders had actually been CANCELLED by the time they got there.

            They were just THERE… and actively ‘engaged’ in running the fire… whether they were ‘supposed to be’ or not.

            My biggest concern with all this is obviously Jason Clawson… and what HE was ACTUALLY doing. He was being considered by ‘the others’ to be an ‘Operations Section Chief’ that day ( the THIRD ONE on the same fire?? ).

            We still have NO IDEA what he was doing down there on Shrine road… WHO told him to be there… or if any of the other TWO OPS people running the fire even KNEW he was down there and actively engaging.

            What if Clawson really did make his own ‘availability check’ out to Marsh / GM like Musser did?

            I think that could be a game-changer… and here is why.

            Marsh didn’t working with Todd Abel or Paul Musser all the time…. but Clawson?… different story.

            Clawson was PNF and an ‘Ops Chief’ on Bea Day’s team roster which included a WHOLE lot of other ‘Prescott people’.

            Doing a TDWA ( Turn Down With Alternative ) might have been easy for Marsh to do when it was either Abel or Musser doing the ‘asking’… but if it was PNF Bea Day team OPS Jason Clawson himself doing the ‘asking’ it might have been a different story altogether.

            If it happened at all… then it’s possible there *MIGHT* have been an elevated level of ‘pressure’ on Marsh to try and do what he might have been being asked to do if it was coming from his ‘own people’ ( PNF Bea Day OPS Chief Jason Clawson ).

            All conjecture… unless there is ever a good round of interviews with these ( I don’t know what to call them ) people that have never been interviewed but were fully participating in what was happening that day.

      • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

        Reply to Marti Reed post on June 18, 2014 at 2:29 pm

        >> Marti said
        >> Rance Marquez didn’t just DISAPPEAR.

        Well, no… of course not.
        As they say in the NAVY… unless you have fallen overboard,
        then ya gotta be SOMEWHERE.

        However… Todd Abel ( The ONLY ‘Field OPS’ for most of the day ) went to great lengths in his ADOSH interview to label Marquez as (quote) “missing in action”.

        For whatever reason… people could not FIND him ( Abel included ) when they wanted to.

        OPS1 Todd Abel says he had no idea where Marquez was all afternoon until he ran into him again AFTER the deployment in the parking lot of the Ranch House Restaurant.

        That’s screwed up.

        Here you have the primary ‘Field OPS’ telling investigators he had NO IDEA where his own designated ‘Division Z’ Supervisor was even when ‘Division Z’ became the target of the fire and was ‘blowing up’.

        Wherever Marquez was most of the afternoon… he most certainly was not doing the things a designated Division Supervisor is SUPPOSED to be doing within the division he was assigned.

        For all intents and purposes… SPGS Gary Cordes was the defacto DIVSZ down there in Yarnell that day… making all the decisions about when the town should evacuate, when ALL resources should evacuate, and even when it was time for Air resources to ‘drop at will’ in Division Z.

        Rance Marquez made NONE of those crucial decisions.
        Gary Cordes did.

        • Marti Reed says

          I don’t want to belabor the point, so this is the last time I will do it. Rance was ASSIGNED to do a situational analysis of Div Z for RESOURCE ORDERING for the NEXT DAY. Period. He wasn’t ASSIGNED to stay there and fight the fire there. Especially without any RESOURCES assigned to him. He was ASSIGNED to then report back to Incident Command with that Intel. Which he tried to do.

          He says, “I tied in with Musser. I didn’t find Todd. Explained to him what I — what I’d found and that there just wasn’t any good options…and about that time, things started to get really busy…”

          So he and Cougan went to Sickles Road where the fire had just turned to. “We had to…move people out…

          “We basically went to point protection after that. It was forced on us.

          Q “did you and–Musser have that discussion….

          “…he understood what I was saying, but he had about two other radios going off in his ear plus other things going on, so he just said ‘Yeah, Um, we’re off — we’re going to have uh , at a later — later time,’

          OK he also says he saw Bea Day there herself at ICP, so I guess she was there.

          So it is true, Abel says he tried to get hold of Rance. And that, for some reason, was not possible. And that happened on this fire.

          And even you honor what Musser says, in spite of what Abel says Musser says. So just because Abel says Rance went AWOL, that doesn’t mean it’s true. It’s just Abel’s perception.

          But Rance did, in fact, do what he was ASSIGNED to do. Amd then some. For a long time. He did not even remotely DISAPPEAR.

          • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

            Reply to Marti Reed post on
            June 18, 2014 at 6:45 pm

            >> Marti said…
            >>
            >> I don’t want to belabor the point,

            We are not ‘belaboring’ the point at all.
            Your point is well taken.

            Yes… in RETROSPECT ( and with after-the-fact testimony ) it is now possible to ‘piece together’ what Marquez was doing and why it was ‘perceived’ ( that day ) by his co-workers that he was a ‘missing person’ and/or ‘left his Division’.

            So there is no ‘belaboring’.
            Just ‘clarifying’.

            >> Marti also said…
            >> Rance was ASSIGNED to do a situational
            >> analysis of Div Z for RESOURCE
            >> ORDERING for the NEXT DAY. Period.
            >> He wasn’t ASSIGNED to stay there and
            >> fight the fire there.

            Again. Point taken. That IS what happened.

            But being ‘assigned to do a situational analysis for tomorrow’s resource ordering’ for DIVSZ… and then just ‘reporting back’… and being ACTUALLY ‘assigned’ to BE Division Z Supervisor and remain actively engaged in RUNNING that Division are two different things. Rance knew he was fulfilling assignment (1)… but others ( THAT DAY ) were wondering why he wasn’t ALSO even trying to do task (2).

            But see FIRE20+ comments as well.

            This is ( apparently ) NOT what NORMALLY happens when someone is ‘officially’ designated a ‘Division Supervisor’ for a specific area of an ACTIVE fire.

            There was no IAP for June 30, as there was for the next day… where we can then see clearly that ‘Division Z’ included ALL of the town of Yarnell.

            Marsh officially became DIVSA circa 10:30 AM on Sunday when Shumate ‘handed the fire over’ to Type 2 (short) team ICP Roy Hall… but even then… that was just a ‘title’. I don’t think ANYONE had even stopped to do that kind of standard ‘Division Map’ which shows where even Incident Command ‘thinks’ one division starts and another one stops.

            So that’s what is truly weird.

            Marquez shows up ( later ) and someone says… “You’re Division Z… and only then Marquez himself discovers that no one has even bothered to figure out what his own Divison boundaries are (yet).

            So he goes off to do that himself.
            Gets into arguments with Marsh about it.

            He continues his ‘assignment’ and then reports back to ICP… but the only impression he left down on the south side was he was supposed to be Division Z… and determine its boundaries down there… but then no one on the south side of the fire ever hears from him again the rest of the afternoon.

            The actual ‘ground forces’ that WERE trying to ‘fight the fire’ down there must have been MIGHTILY confused by all this.

            Their ‘expectation’ when someone shows up and says “I’m DIVS X” is that they will, in fact, now be available to actually ‘manage’ DIVS X.

            That didn’t happen ( because that was never really Marquez’s real assignment in the first place? ).

            All they were left with was a geographical section of the incident area that was GOING to become the dead-center target of the active flamefront in a few hours… but there was no consensus as to WHO the ‘Division Supervisor’ for that targeted area really was.

            There was some guy who showed up earlier in the day and SAID he was ‘DIVS Z’… but no one DOWN THERE had seen or heard from him again after that.

            So the THEM… he was a ‘missing person’.
            That is all I am saying.

            They all jumped in and managed their situation as best they could ( Frisby playing DIVS, Cordes playing DIVS, etc, Even Esquibel making some decisions that probably SHOULD have gone through
            a DIVS ).

            This is called ‘total confusion’.

            It was present that day, on that south side of the fire… and *MAY* have been a major contributing factor to the tragedy that took place at 1645.

            It was a seriously chaotic and mismanaged
            workplace that day… with misplaced priorities… and people died.

            ADOSH has already concluded that this WAS the case.

            • Marti Reed says

              Copy.

              Good point, the difference between looking at this via hindsight while sitting here reading interviews vs what FFs in that area were dealing with. Blue Ridge was never “assigned” to anybody, and it appears, given the timing, they sorta kinda included themselves in DivA, and then sorta kinda had to become their own DivZ working in conjunction with Gary Cordes in terms of tactics.

              My sense regarding Esquibel is that he was considering Cordes his “supervisor” as he was assigned to his Structure Group, I think.

              It really is quite messy, and I have no idea, as I’m no FF, if this is unusual or usual or what.

        • FIRE20+ says

          Please recognize the Supt for Blue Ridge, Brian Frisby basically assumed the role of DIVS in the Zulu area (which was never officially engaged/named), because that’s what Supt’s do when there is a lack of leadership. Cordes, I recall him being on HWY 89 acting as LO…eventually tying into Musser & Sciacca. Brian literally saved the lives of firefighters that day. Recall in someones (sorry I can’t recall exactly who) interview a member of a strike team of engines asked if they needed to evacuate from the Shrine area and Brian yelled YES!! Cordes called for drops at will via Todd Abel because his radio stopped functioning on Air to Ground, for what reason I don’t comprehend. Never seen a King radio just randomly stop transmitting on A-G but for the user hitting a random key on the keypad. And this happened while on HWY 89 when he was with Musser and Sciacca.
          And as far as Marquez goes with his supposed assignment of only going out to the field to gather intel on resources needed, well that drives me a little crazy. When does a DIVS show up on a fire in the morning/afternoon and an OPS tells them to just go gather intel on resources needed and not engage? Really?! Marquez clearly tried to engage with Eric over and over but was beyond confused and felt he was handed bad ground so he went to ICP to tie in with OPS and still couldn’t make it work. Or look at Blue Ridge’s account of when Marquez left..he saw a column to the N and they never saw him again. And no Marquez didn’t disappear he moved to another area of the fire with Cougan and was still engaged while Brian Frisby tried to manage the no named DIVS and keep people safe.

          • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

            Reply to FIRE20+ on June 18, 2014
            at 8:26 pm

            >> FIRE20+ said…
            >>
            >> Cordes called for drops at will via Todd
            >> Abel because his radio stopped
            >> functioning on Air to Ground, for what
            >> reason I don’t comprehend.

            Gary Cordes explained this in his ADOSH interview.

            What REALLY happened is that the actual physical ‘transmit’ switch on his BK took a dump… and Cordes was forced to use the Motorola mounted in his truck. Problem there was that the Motorola has the right (standard) incident TAC frequencies programmed in… but it did NOT have the current incident A2G frequency. So Cordes still could not TRANSMIT over A2G and either didn’t have the time ( or didn’t know HOW? ) to plug that day’s correct A2G frequency into the Motorola… so he just limped along with it.

            From Gary Cordes’ ADOSH interview…
            ____________________________________
            I was trying to get a hold of Eric and this is about the time, right about this time, in this 1445 to 50 timeframe is when I was having a radio problem with my King radio. My transmissions weren’t getting out. I had a problem with my, uh, the switch to my mike went out and uh, so I had to switch over to a Motorola, it was a mobile unit mounted in my truck. Um, I lost, because of that, the group programming that I had I lost air to ground. I had all the other Tacs and the command channel and I just lost the air to ground frequency.
            ____________________________________

            >> FIRE20+ also said…
            >> When does a DIVS show up on a fire in
            >> the morning/afternoon and an OPS tells
            >> them to just go gather intel on resources
            >> needed and not engage? Really?!

            Exactly. The REAL mystery is not where Marquez went after showing up on the south side of the fire and ‘announcing’ that he was ‘Division Z Supervisor’.

            The REAL mystery is why he was even told to say that to them in the first place if he knew he wasn’t even TOLD to ‘hang around’ and actually BE the ‘Division Sup’ for that piece of ground.

            Having someone ‘assigned’ to just go do some INTEL so we can plug some shit into the computer for TOMORROW is actually FINE ( someone has to do that )…

            …but to call someone a ‘Division Supervisor’ for a section of the fire… and then not REQUIRE him to REMAIN there and fulfill that function is just ‘crazy land’.

            It confused the CRAP out of everyone there on the south side of the fire and *MAY* have been a major contributing factor to the tragedy that was to take place later in that ‘Divison without an active Supervisor’.

            If you KNOW the guy you send to a ‘Division’ to act as a SUP is really just going to be coming back and issuing a ‘report’… and then take off ‘freelancing’ on the fire…

            …then send someone ELSE down there as ‘active DIVSUP’ and make sure that Division really DOES have someone actually THERE and actively fulfilling that role.

            If you don’t… bad things could happen.

            • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

              Followup… regarding Cordes’ radio.

              They actually revisit the topic a few times in his ADOSH interview and the second time they do we hear Cordes explain why he could not REGAIN Air-To-Ground transmit capability.

              It wasn’t that he didn’t know the frequency ( or how to program a radio )… he says that the Motorola radio mounted in his truck that was now his only way to TRANSMIT ( on ANY channel ) was ‘not programmable’.

              From later on in Cordes’ ADOSH
              interview…

              Q1 = Barry Hicks
              Q2 = Dave Larsen ( Rest in Peace )
              A = Gary Cordes
              ______________________________
              A: I’m, I’m without air to ground um, the – I had two additional radios. I, normally I go in an off-district uh, vehicle that has multiple King uh, uh, mobile units and then I, I carry a portable. Because of the initial response, I was at home and they wanted immediate response, I took my duty truck which I had my King portable and then I had a um, Motorola um, which is NOT programmable uh…

              Q1: Right.

              A: …but did have the State groups in it and then I had a Motorola handheld as well, so I used the two Motorola’s um, for my communications but neither had the air to ground frequency in it.
              ______________________________

            • SR says

              I think you need to look at Marquez from the perspective of looking for convenient places to assign blame. Given conflicting accounts, he may have fully done everything he was asked to do and more, along with accurately assessing the situation (which others weren’t and didn’t) and suggesting different tactics. Or, he may have accurately assessed the situation, accurately suggested different tactics, and faced with flak from EM among other things not disengaged elegantly. But, he never made the decision to sit on hands regarding evacuation until it was way too late, he never made the decision to keep resources at tasks that were pointless and dangerous, and he was not involved in id’ing bombproof SZs that weren’t bombproof by existing standards, nor in many of the other issues that day. Also, as someone who DID accurately identify some real problems, he is in some ways a threat to others who didn’t, just by virtue of that. He hadn’t broken bread with some of these people, and he also wasn’t visible during key moments so there’s not a natural safety check of saying “Rance was there with us and did his share.”

              IMO, as regards the reasons people talk about this fire, he is a non-issue. Had people listened to his input, his input may have had positive effects that day. Had he stayed active and worked with Blue Ridge, though, there’s no reason to assume GM would have done anything differently.

          • Marti Reed says

            Is it usual or unusual to assign someone to be a DivS without assigning them any “resources”?

    • Marti Reed says

      Shhh, I’m whispering here .

      The possibly totally completely mistaken thought that has been developing all day in my mind today is that…

      The smaller Ponderosa FD truck is Sachera’s, and he was with the PFD truck that was doing structure protection (and in that photo with both of them) thru the deployment and later, and only then came down to the RHR parking lot. There are no Air2Air videos of either of these vehicles. And that would fit with the narrative that they drove down to Yarnell later.

      And the larger double-cab red pick-up that has the banner “Ponderosa Fire” was somehow borrowed or otherwise attained by Musser. I’ve been going around and around this all day.

      That larger red truck is repeatedly where Musser needs to be when he needs to be there. The smaller one isn’t.

      Ponderosa FD is just a hop skip jump west of West Flagstaff, barely beyond where I used to live.. Musser lives in Flagstaff. but I’m not sure exactly where.

      I’m currently thinking it’s possible (and I currently find myself mystified how people aquifer the vehicles they acquire) Musser somehow acquired that larger Ponderosa Fire truck and was using it that day, while Sachara was using that smaller Ponderosa truck seen with that other Prescott FD crew that was on the fire way after the deployment, and only then came down to Yarnell and then participated in the Prescott Honor Guard Team.

      Does this make sense? It’s pretty complicated.

      • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

        Marti.. I hear ya.

        By the way… it is absolutely confirmed that the ‘other’ red ‘Pondersa Fire’ truck with the C-81 Unit Designator on the back of it seen in that ‘smoky’ photo taken up there at the intersection of ‘Model Creek Road’ and ‘Double Bar A Ranch Road’ is, in fact, the vehicle that Pondersa Fire District Chief Mark Sachara was driving that day.

        The LICENSE PLATE ( G541FG ) matches exactly what is listed in Mark Sachara’s actual ‘Resource Order’.

        The ‘Prescott Fire Department’ white-with-red-stripe truck in same photo is also definitely ‘Cory Moser’. Same story. license plate ( G039EJ ) matches the one listed in Moser’s actual resource order.

        When the deployment took place… Willis asked Cory Moser to ‘take over the Division’ so Willis could scoot down to Yarnell… and Sachara was PART of that Division still fighting the fire there on Model Creek Road… so YES… that is additional ‘proof’ that Sachara’s RED truck should NOT be expected to be seen any of the Tom Story RHR photos.

        So that leaves the ‘other’ red truck.

        You might be exactly right.

        Musser might have come to Yarnell in his PERSONAL vehicle… never really expecting that he would be ‘Field OPS’ and out actually fighting the fire… so he may have NEEDED to borrow someone’s truck when he launched onto the fire as the second active ‘Field OPS’ and his first ‘battle’ was over there on Sickles Road.

        It would then also make sense that that ‘red truck’ now seen in the Tom Story photos is where we ( apparently ) see that group of FFs ‘huddled’ either going over the GM manifest and/or ‘looking at a map’.

        Unfortunately… Paul Musser’s ‘Travel Mode’ entry in his resource order is one of those that does NOT list the license plate number of his vehicle… but it also DOES say something a little interesting.

        It says he was driving a ‘Rental Car’ that day.

        O-16.12
        Paul Musser
        Travel Mode: AOV/POV/RENTAL

        So maybe ( just maybe ) that explains something.
        Instead of him using a ‘rental’ car to get out onto the fire ( and risk ash damage )… he BORROWED a ‘truck’ more suited to the task when he ‘launched’ out onto the fire as the second fully active ‘Field OPS’.

        I wish we had some photos of the vehicles that were actually at the 7:00 AM briefing at the Yarnell Hill Fire station. That would help identify what Musser was driving.

        Of course… all that might tell us is what the ‘Rental’ car his resource order says he was driving looked like. That still doesn’t mean he didn’t ‘borrow’ someone else’s vehicle later that day to be ‘Field OPS’ with.

        Swings of the axe.
        The tree will eventually fall.

        • Marti Reed says

          I don’t interpret AOV/POV/Rental to mean he was renting a vehicle. I interpret it as meaning he was authorized to do any of the above. So it’s really inconclusive. Unfortunately.

  34. SR says

    “It’s always irritated, people saying GM had no lookout, the ER wasn’t scouted, nobody knew what the ‘code’ EM used meant, on and on. ”

    Well, GM had no lookout. Fact. Seemingly, though they knew, as we now know clearly, that the winds were blowing the fire their way, no felt need for a lookout on their part. No felt need even to communicate their intentions to others so that other could step in as lookout.

    As far as what EM meant, well, midslope in the usage that everyone uses means one thing. Based on what we can here, EM seems to have meant either something else, or ??? You want to volunteer some unique meaning to midslope, Fire20+? Because I’ve never heard it used in anything other than its normal meaning. Not by skiers, not by chukar hunters, nor by people in this context. The language used was, fuzzy or foggy. The person on the other side of the conversation certainly should have pressed for specificity. Certainly EM should have given, without being asked, specificity, since the welfare of his crew may well have rested on it.

    You going to claim the ER WAS scouted? Give me a break,. Fire20. It wasn’t scouted, so far as any info available indicates. Fact.

    • Bob Powers says

      Taking pieces of radio traffic when your not hearing the whole conversation or the other side is not to come to the conclusion that the wording your hearing is some how a code talk turns into a poor excuse for investigating the facts.
      No one has said the ER was scouted not me not Fire20+.
      Get back to facts and we will all try to move forward.

      • SR says

        Facts would include noting that I never said EM was talking in code. Please don’t put words in my mouth. You and Fire20+ have both suggested that perhaps the person on the other side of the conversation understood what EM’s meaning was. I had asked, at that point, if EM was then talking in code or something, in a context which should make clear I don’t think he was doing so.

        Back up for a second. Code, or whatever other way that EM’s communication would be understood clearly by the person on the other side of it, would mean that people WERE informed with some specificity that GM was going to drop off of the 2-track and bushwhack to the BSR. Without a lookout, with the wind blowing the fire their way. That would be a heck of a story, but I have seen nothing to suggest that GM’s specific plans were communicated in that way.

        EM’s communication seem to us to be at best fuzzy on specifics, and seems to have been received that way on the other end, too, given seeming lack awareness of what GM was doing. This is what we know.

        If you know something more, suggesting to you that GM had relayed its specific route with clarity, please state those facts Bob, rather than trying to put words in my mouth.

        • Bob Powers says

          I refer to other statements below and leave it at that.
          No I do not nor have I ever thought that they told any body what they were doing that we have any reference to. But some may have heard a discussion on crew net as to what they were doing, but that has yet to be nailed down as fact.

          • SR says

            Other statements below would include this specific statement from me, when I asked in the theory sense if they were talking in code: “…I don’t think this code of any sort, fwiw. Whatever the reason, just a very unclear use of language when clarity would have been easily achieved… ”

            I left out an “is” in that sentence, so you can fault my typing, but I do think it quite clear that I was specifically stating I didn’t think this was, in Bob’s words, some kind of “code talk.”

            Thank you Bob for clarifying that you don’t presently think GM told anybody what they were doing. That is consistent with EM’s transmission lacking specifics, and consistent with the person on the other end likewise not understanding the words used in a way indicating GM’s specific plans and route. In terms of takeaways here, in any type of high-pressure environment, being clear and feeling free on the other end to ask for clarity is a good thing.

            • FIRE20+ says

              I concur SR, clear, concise delivery of intent is the best protocol, and if the receiving party doesn’t understand–ask! But nor have I ever said that EM, to my knowledge, told anybody their plans and the receiving party understood. Fact. My point is it’s possible. Crew net, cell phones and the fact the Air Study has revealed various voices talking to GM on the radio…to me possibilities are there. I don’t have proof of who said what to who but I do know the Air Study shows us it’s possible people knew. Same with the ER. Anything is possible, and just because the SAI doesn’t acknowledge this possibility does not mean a thing to me. Remember that investigation didn’t even find the burned pink roll of flagging? The LO…agree it would have been suicide to be acting as a LO and not see the imminent fire heading their way. Scenario: Is it possible EM was acting as LO and ran from some direction to save his crew? I say yes, certain death or not. Other LO’s? You ever heard of the Prescott Mining Co?
              And midslope, check out Brendan M’s ADOSH interview, pg 33 (12/26/13). Not saying this is everything, but I believe it’s possible he was briefed on this by EM in the morning. Not what I would say is mid slope, but perception is everything and I haven’t actually been to the site to say for myself.

              • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

                There is no evidence that SPGS Gary Cordes ever specifically consulted with GM about this ‘move’… but there is also all the evidence in the world that Gary Cordes had NO DOUBTS about what Marsh was ‘doing’ and where he was going.

                Cordes is the ONLY one in fire command who has admitted to this in his ADOSH interviews.

                Cordes KNEW.

                He even said he was sure they had (quote) “all the time in the world to get there… and they should have (gotten there)”

                In BOTH his SAIT and ADOSH interviews… Gary Cordes said he was not ‘surprised’ in any way that they died where they did. He was ONLY ‘surprised’ that they ‘didn’t make it to the BSR’.

        • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

          >> SR said…
          >> EM’s communication seem to us to be at best
          >> fuzzy on specifics,

          You are being too generous.

          There is all the evidence in the world that even when asked DIRECT questions like “What’s your STATUS right now?” and “Are you WITH Granite Mountain?”…

          …Marsh did nothing but either supply MINIMAL information or actually totally DODGE the question.

          It wasn’t ‘code talk’. It was someone who either didn’t even KNOW how to ‘Communicate effectively’… or was PURPOSELY choosing NOT to do so.

          Again… just take this ONE crucial exchange captured in the background of an Air-Study video at 4:16 PM… right smack in the middle of that 30 minute (supposed) ‘blackout’ period…

          (Someone in fire command): Are you WITH Granite Mountain right now?

          (Eric Marsh): Ah… just checkin’ it out to see where we’re gonna jump out at.

          That is a TOTAL DODGE of the question.

          He does NOT answer the question he was asked.
          He was either DEAF or he didn’t WANT to answer
          that question CLEARLY.

          Whoever was asking the question ( which we also now know was in response to Bravo 33 ASKING someone on the ground to ask that specific question since Bravo 33 wasn’t sure WHERE Marsh was )
          should have come RIGHT BACK with…

          “Copy that… but please VERIFY. Are you WITH Granite Mountain right now… or are you NOT?
          If NOT… then WHERE ARE YOU?”

          THAT is the question that Bravo 33 needed an answer to at that time… but never got it.

          >> SR also wrote…
          >> and seems to have been received that
          >> way on the other end, too, given seeming lack
          >> awareness of what GM was doing. This is
          >> what we know.

          Yes… however… we ALSO know that Gary Cordes never had ANY doubts ‘where they were’ or ‘what they were doing”. He said so in his own inteviews.

          Gary Cordes was NOT ‘suprised’ ( in any way ) that they deployed where they did. That is EXACTLY where he thought they might have done it.

          The ONLY thing Gary Cordes was ‘suprised’ about is that they ‘didn’t make it to the BSR’.

          Cordes was FULLY aware of what Marsh was doing but was also FULLY convinced they had all the time in the world to ‘pull it off’… and said so in his interviews.

          So this was all about ‘Situational Awareness’ on fire command’s part and the use of certain ‘words’.

          Whenever Marsh said ‘escape route’ or ‘ranch’… Marsh seemed to have been ASSUMING that whoever he was talking to was fully ‘up to speed’ on what those ‘words’ meant.

          Marsh simply didn’t realize that NONE of that had really ever been communicated to people that he was now interacting with on the radio ( Abel, Musser, others? ).

          ONLY Gary Cordes really knew what the ‘code words’ “escape route from this morning” and “ranch” ACTUALLY meant.

          Even Blue Ridge Firsby and Brown had no friggin’ idea what those ‘code phrases’ meant. They were LATE that morning and had missed ALL the official briefings and no one gave them ‘additional’ ones.

          Even with all their dealings with SPGS1 Cordes… apparently Cordes never even bothered to explain to Frisby or Brown what he had told GM that morning about ‘escape routes’ and ‘ranchs’ and whatnot.

          That all remained only ‘privately understood’ that day between Eric Marsh and Gary Cordes.

          • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

            Sorry about all the ‘typos’ above. That was from a mobile Android.

            It is not ‘Firsby’… his name is ‘Brian Frisby’.

            Speaking of which ( with regards to point being made above )… even though Cordes had decided that morning that the ‘Boulder Springs Ranch’ qualified as an adequate ‘safety zone’ for resources that WOULD be working the south end of the fire that day…

            …I can find NO EVIDENCE that the those ‘forces working the south end of the fire’ WERE ever told about it ( As in… Blue Ridge, Jerry Thompson and crew, etc. ).

            It would seem that ONLY Marsh was told about it when Cordes led him out to the Sesame Area that morning.

            Blue Ridge was eventually ‘right there’ in that same Sesame are all day… ( until they moved over to Youth Camp and THAT became their own self-appointed ‘safety zone’ )… but apparently had NEVER been told by ANYONE that they were supposed to consider the Boulder Springs Ranch to be a ‘safety zone’.

            Hence the confusion.

            If Brian Frisby and Trueheart Brown had received the SAME information about this ‘Boulder Springs Ranch as a safety zone’ thing… then later in the day… when Marsh started his ‘obtuse talk’… maybe Frisby and Brown would NOT have been confused at all about what Marsh was saying.

            And if they hadn’t been… maybe an ‘intervention’ would have taken place right there and then. A missed opportunity because Frisby and Brown hadn’t been told what Marsh had been told that morning.

            • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

              Sorry… one more followup…

              It’s not like Gary Cordes just ‘disappeared’ after he showed Eric Marsh where the Sesame area was and (supposedly) told him about the Boulder Springs Ranch right then and there.

              We KNOW that when Blue Ridge finally showed up out there later that morning that they WERE interacting DIRECTLY with Gary Cords. They even had to physically ‘relieve’ him of the dozer duties so that he could get back to town as SPGS1.

              So even though Gary Cordes was apparently standing right there in/around the Sesame area with Blue Ridge… it looks like Cordes NEVER did the same ‘Boulder Springs Ranch’ briefing with THEM that he did with the other Type 1 Hotshot Supt ( Marsh ) earlier that morning in the exact same place.

              Cordes chose to tell the FIRST Type 1 Hotshot crew that went to work ‘out there’ about the ‘Boulder Springs Ranch as a safety zone’… but then totally neglected to tell the same thing to the SECOND Type 1 Hotshot crew showing up to work in the exact same place.

              At least… that’s what the evidence shows ( or fails to show ).

              Only a GOOD ( complete ) set of interviews with Blue Ridge could clear up the ( important ) question of WHY the Supt. of one Type 1 Hotshot team working an area was fully briefed about that ‘ranch as safety zone’… whereas the OTHER Type 1 Hotshot Supt. was NOT ( which led to a crucial mis-communication and missed opportunity for a ‘sanity check’ later that afternoon ).

              • FIRE20+ says

                Good one WTKTT. This has been heavily on my mind today. ALWAYS doubted if BRIHC received the ‘bomb proof SZ’ briefing the GM received. This could lead to a direct communication breakdown. Blue Ridge didn’t receive a briefing and Brian & True scouted like normal with or without a briefing from anybody, being proactive. So BRIHC dropped Ball off to be HEQB, I am not believing Cordes stopped midstream to brief. Cordes has maintained the only reason he had anything to do with GMIHC was because he knew the roads–they were not his resource and neither were BRIHC–therefore not his resource to brief. Did OPS forget? Sure, Abel wanted to keep BR in his back pocket and Musser was busy doing something. Like they assumed the other guy was doing what they should’ve been doing. No assumptions in fire.

                • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

                  Exactly.

                  From the moment I first read the SAIR report and started reading bullshit like “But Frisby thought they meant the road they walked in on” or “But Frisby thought they meant a ranch to the north” ( Which was totally false… the SAIT was ‘putting that thought’ in Frisby’s head to justify their own narrative. )…

                  …my WTF alarms were going off.

                  How could ONE Type 1 Hotshot crew working an area have been given some ‘instructions’ about where a ‘pre-determined safety zone’ was for that workplace… but then just 90 minutes later ANOTHER Type 1 Hotshot crew shows up to work ( basically ) the SAME AREA and then have no idea later what the other guy was talking about with regards to ‘escape route’ and ‘safety zone’?

                  What kind of frickin’ ‘ball drop’ does THAT represent all by itself?

                  You are right. Gary Cords felt like he was just ‘doing them a favor’ by showing them where the Sesame Area was ( and where this stupid BSR was ).

                  He did not feel like it was ‘his job’ to be doing any of that… he only agreed to do it because he’d been driving around there all night and knew the shortcuts out there.

                  So right from the get-go… even though Yarnell would be totally included in DIVSZ… there was no ‘Division Z’ supervisor to feel like it WAS ‘his job’ to make sure all the resources working his division had ‘the same information’ with regards to IMPORTANT stuff like ‘designated safety zones’ and ‘escape routes’ and whatnot.

                  Blue Ridge shows up later… but then Cordes ( since he wasn’t DIVS… just SPGS for town ) felt no obligation to give THEM the same briefing he gave the other Type 1 Hotshot Supt. just 2 hours earlier?

                  Again… WTF?

                  I think the Blue Ridge notes establish that at one point… while they were ‘staged’ in the Sesame Area and just twiddling their thumbs waiting for someone ( anyone? ) to ‘give them something to do’… there was actual discussion amonst themselves that ONE of their possible ‘safety zone’ possibilities was to just ‘burn off the grass’ in that clearing where they found themselves… if they had to.

                  I think that indicates pretty clearly that they were NOT told by Cordes ( or anyone ) what Marsh was told just 2 hours earlier.

                  The ‘crazy time’ here is not that all Hotshot crews aren’t responsible for determining ( for themselves ) what their own ‘escape routes’ and ‘safety zones’ should be. They ARE supposed to do that…

                  …but in this case we have some guy named Cordes telling a Hotshot 1 Sup what his ‘pre-determined escape route and safety zone’ were supposed to be ( and hence, where they would DIE later )…

                  …but then 2 hours later another Type 1 Hotshot crew is right there in the same place and he doesn’t even bother to tell them the same thing.

                  I wish he had.

                  I believe that Brian Frisby was smart enough and ‘safety minded’ enough that if he had received the SAME briefing about ‘pre-determined escape route and safety zone’ that Marsh got from Cordes…

                  …that Frisby himself would have automatically understood what Marsh later SAID he was attempting to do and Frisby would have CHALLENGED his co-worker’s decision at THAT time… given the fire behavior HE was now seeing up close and personal.

                  So this one is back on Cordes again. If he told Type 1 Hotshot leader Marsh all about the BSR… then WHY would he not then make sure the SECOND Type 1 Hotshot leader working the SAME area had the SAME information?

  35. WantsToKnowTheTruth says

    **
    ** ANOTHER PHOTO SHOWING BEA DAY’S TYPE 2 PNF PEOPLE
    ** CLAWSON, HULBURD AND YOWELL WERE DEFINITELY THERE
    ** AS EARLY AS 3:18 PM

    In the ADOSH release package…

    Photos and Videos ASFD Photos Johsua Hudson

    https://www.dropbox.com/sh/20inrene9tcx74a/AABiUo5Swnmd89-Gdfg7-lupa/ADOSH%20Yarnell%20Hill%20Investigation/Photos%20and%20Video/ASFD%20Photos/Joshua%20Hudson#/

    Photo 25

    Shows same group of PNF vehicles up at ICP as seen in that video as it
    passes them… but this is EARLIER than that video.

    This photo has an internal timestamp of 6/30/2013 – 3:18 PM

    Based on Hudson’s other photographs in that folder such as photos taken at sundown the previous day… his timestamp on his ‘iPhone’ seems to have
    been accurate, even if it wasn’t connected to the network on Sunday.

    According to when the Dispatch logs actually say that Clawson, Hulburd and
    Yowell were ‘on their way’ to Yarnell… they COULD have arrived as
    early as 2:30 PM… but since the whole check-in process was screwed
    up and we still don’t have any real hard documentation on that ( not even
    from Rob Berry who says he was he one handling all the check-ins ) it’s
    not definite WHEN these 3 ‘Type 2’ Bea Day PNF hires actually arrived…

    …but this photo shows that they were at least definitely there as early
    as 3:18 PM that day. There is no one by their trucks and BOTH UTVs
    are unloaded and ‘missing’… so all three of them could have been
    out ‘bombing around’ the fire in their UTVs as early as 3:00 PM.

    • Marti Reed says

      Which “that video” are you referencing here? I know what you mean but I don’t have it. Where is it?

      • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

        Reply to Marti Reed on June 17, 2014 at 11:52 am

        >> Marti asked…
        >> Which “that video” are you referencing here?
        >> I know what you mean but I don’t have it. Where is it?

        ** THE SHORT STORY

        VID 20130630 151521 240

        Yarnell Hill Fire video provided by AZSF crew

        I was actually wrong. I thought the timestamp on this
        video was 3:30 PM. It was actually shot around the
        same time as the new photo found up above.

        ** THE LONG STORY

        Original post from Chapter IV ( 4 )…

        On February 8, 2014 at 4:44 am, WTKTT said:

        **
        ** THE REAL STORY OF THE HELMET-CAM VIDEO
        ** AND THE VEHICLES / OWNERS

        Jason Clawson, Aaron Hulburd and KC ‘Bucky’ Yowell.
        All Bea Day ‘Type 2’ team hires from Prescott National
        Forest. The actual ‘Type 2’ team order never ‘went through’
        that day so all these guys were basically ‘freelancing’.

        The real key to identifying these men in the Helmet-Cam video was first identifying all the VEHICLES that are clearly seen in the video.

        A lot of ‘official markings’ including license plate numbers are clearly seen in the Helmet-Cam video itself… but it was when this same group of THREE vehicles was also found in that other video parked on the side of the road at 1515 up at the ICP that identification became really simple.

        The TITLE of that video is…

        VID 20130630 151521 240
        Yarnell Hill Fire video provided by AZSF crew

        The crew that took the video is NOT the crew that takes the Helmet-Cam video. This video simply accidentally captures the vehicles of the crew that WILL take the Helmet-Cam video ( Clawson, Hulburd and Yowell ).

        At exactly +0:36 seconds into the video… it accidentally captures the entire ‘Helmet Cam Video’ crew VEHICLES ( all 3 of them ) parked there on the side of the road up by the ICP.

        They are the EXACT same vehicles that are GOING to be seen in the Helmet-Cam video shot at the St. Joseph Shrine parking lot one hour and twenty three minutes from now… trailers and all.

        Only the vehicles are there. No crew. So they all must have been INSIDE the Incident Command Post at the moment THIS video was shot OR ‘bombing around’ in their UTVs since they are not in their trailers at 1515.

        In the video… vehicles are passed by in this order…

        1) First seen is the regular-size aquamarine standard pickup ( minimal access-cab style with hard-enclosed bed ) with the white UTV trailer.

        This one appears later in the Helmet-Cam video just beyond the 2 firefighters ( Clawson – White helmet, Yowell – Black helmet ) seen when the Helmet-Cam operator ( Hulburd ) pans just east in the Shrine parking lot for a moment. The white UTV trailer ride-out is DOWN in this video and the UTV is not there so they might not have been in the ICP at this point. They might have been out ‘bombing around’ Model Creek in there UTV’s up NEAR the IC in this 1515 timeframe. Standard USFS Forestry ‘Shield’ logo is on the door. White stripes on side. Says ‘Fire’ in the stripes and Vehicle ID ( In big white letters on front ) is DV-93.

        DV stands for ‘Division Chief’.
        The 9 in 93 means ‘Prescott National Forest (PNF)’.
        The ’3′ in 93 means ‘PNF Ranger District 3′.

        That would be Jayson Clawson.

        Matches his job description AND his ‘Unit code’ ordering designation in the ‘WildCAD’ system at the Prescott Interagency Dispatch Center (AZ-PDC) Resource Status Availability page… which looks like this…

        ID, Resource, Status, Location
        DIV-93, Jason Clawson – PNF, DO OutSvc,
        District Office (Bradshaw)

        There is also a moment when Clawson walks by Hulburd in the Helmet-Cam video itself and once I had a name to search I found photos online that verify it is, in fact, him.

        2) Next ( at +0:37 in this video ) comes the first white extended cab pickup truck that will be seen in the Helmet Cam video. This one is has the ‘access cab’ configuration ( big side window but no double doors ) and ALSO has a UTV trailer attached. Same standard USFS Forestry ‘Shield’ logo on passenger door.

        The markings on the side door clearly say…

        FOR OFFICIAL USE ONLY
        US GOVERNMENT
        ( SHIELD LOGO – TOP: FOREST SERVICE )
        ( SHIELD LOGO – MIDDLE: U (Picture of Tree) S )
        ( SHIELD LOGO – BOTTOM: DEPARTMENT OF AGRICULTURE )
        EQUIPMENT NUMBER: 2038

        This is KC (Casey) ‘Bucky’ Yowell’s vehicle.

        Yowell is the one most clearly seen in the Helmet-Cam video itself standing in the middle of the road with his portable radio in his hand.

        Other pictures found online with a simple Google search for the words ‘Casey’ and ‘Prescott National Forest’ match exactly.

        His ‘Unit code’ ordering designation in the ‘WildCAD’ system at the (AZ-PDC) Prescott Interagency Dispatch Center Resource Status Availability page looks like this…

        ID, Resource, Status, Location
        CAPT 2, KC ‘Bucky’ Yowell, Out of Svc,
        District Office (Chino)

        3) Next VEHICLE… ( at +0:38 in the video )

        This one is same exact white extended cab pickup configuration as (2) but this one has forest green double stripes on the side. This is also the one that has the flat-style emergency lights rack mounted on the cab roof. The other white pickup does not have this. This one also has the black-metal ‘deer chucker’ mounted on the front whereas the other white pickup has no ‘deer chucker’. Green stripes on side have the word ‘Fire’ inside them right over the rear wheel cowlings. Same standard USFS Forestry ‘Shield’ logo on passenger door. Vehicle ID ( In Forest green letters on front ) is AZ-PNF (Prescott National Forest ).

        This is Aaron Hulburd’s vehicle.

        He is clearly seen in the Helmet-Cam video in a full frontal close-up after he takes the Helmet-Cam off and goes to place it on top of the cab of this vehicle.

          • Marti Reed says

            I remember seeing that video when you first posted it but I didn’t download it. And now in the AZSF folder of the Photos and Videos Folder via the dropbox link, there’s nothing like that there.

          • Marti Reed says

            I seriously have no clue where these videos are, other than Elizabeth’s YouTube account. Did they ever get posted to John Dougherty’s collection on Dropbox????

            • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

              Marti… I apologize. I didn’t make it clear where that video was. I was about to post all about it but I see that you found it.

              Yes… I was talking about that video that EN uploaded to her YouTube account even before Mr. Dougherty’s Dropbox came online.

              That filename ( with space characters ) is the name SHE gave to it. Still not sure if that’s the original filename or not…

              …and NO… I am searching my brains out at the moment and I can’t find the corresponding video in the actual Online Dropbox.

              Nor does there seem to be a match for this other ‘fascinating’ video that EN uploaded to her YouTube account…

              https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jfWi4WxBS98

              The video title EN gave this one is…

              VID 20130630 152616 965 – Yarnell Hill Fire Video Provided by AZSF crew

              It shows some ‘engine’ ( still not sure who ) pulling into Hays Ranch Road and then traveling WEST and headed TOWARDS the Model Creek School ICP. They are shooting video from inside cab of truck the whole time they proceed west. Only video like this I’ve ever seen. It was shot (supposedly?) at 1526.

              This is the known images of the ‘Panebaker’ setup itself there on the north side of the road as they pass by it.

              There are TONS of vehicles in this one and we finally get to see the ‘checkpoint’ that was set up where Hays Ranch Road meets Highway 89.

              Also… in this video… there are two HELMETS sitting on the dashboard.

              One is black and the other is red with yellow tape. They BOTH look like helmets we are going to see FFs wearing later in the Tom Story photos.

              Again… apologies for not making the location of that video clear. You should not have had to go on an Easter Egg hunt.

              • Marti Reed says

                Yep, I caught that one too. And no apologies needed.

                Somehow Dougherty just doesn’t have these and Elizabeth does, and I’ve figured out how to work around this.

        • Marti Reed says

          Ok so I did the google machine and found the way to download from YouTube, something I should have done long ago. So I can put it in lightroom and keyword it.

          Especially since it not only has that crew’s trucks in it, but also the big red truck that I’m pretty sure is Paul Musser’s (although I can’t for the life of me read the insignia on the door).

          I discovered several other photos of it, while sifting through photos that I hadn’t found yet in the Dropbox collection. Including one that is really early on in the RHR parking lot, and also two of it at the mini-mart and one of it leaving the mini-mart just at the right time.

          • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

            Marti… again… apologies for NOT making it clear that the video with the ‘Clawson, Hulburd and Yowell’ vehicles was, in fact, that one sitting on Youtube in EN’s account.

            It appeared BEFORE the Dropbox even came online.

            And YES… there are TONS of vehicles seen in this video… including EXACTLY who is parked right up there next to the Model Creek School.

            We also see that ‘red truck’ in this video…

            At exactly +33 seconds ( and before we get to see Clawson, Hulburd and Yowell’s vehicles )… I believe that is the same exact red double-door pickup we are GOING to see later at the RHR with that group of FFs ( apparently ) consulting with Brendan McDonough and looking at a MAP spread out on the hood of it.

            It appears to say ‘Ponderosa Fire’ in GOLD letters on the driver’s side door.

            Mark Sachara is the current ‘Fire Chief’ of the ‘Ponderosa Fire Distrcit’ in Bellemont, Arizona ( Cococino County ).

            Mark Sachara was THERE in Yarnell that day… and is the one who took over Division Z from Rance Marquez after the burnover.

            Mark Sachara went on to be officially listed as ‘DIVS Z’ for Yarnell in the following day’s Incident Action Plan ( IAP ).

            In that IAP… Mark Sachara is also officially listed as having been part of Todd Abel’s “Incident Within An Incident” management team from the previous day, after the burnover.

            From just one ( of many ) lists of current Arizona Fire Departments/Districts…

            Ponderosa Fire Department
            P.O. Box 16359, Bellemont, AZ 86015
            (928) 773-8933
            Mark Sachara, Fire Chief

            ** RE: YOUTUBE DOWNLOADS

            NOTE: The ‘YouTube’ video downloader that has always worked like a champ for me is..

            http://www.clipconverter.cc/

            • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

              Correction for above…

              That ‘red truck’ seen just before we see the Jason Clawson, Aaron Hulburd and KC ‘Bucky’ Yowell vehicles in the video mentioned above does NOT say “Ponderosa Fire” on the door.

              It actually says “Wickenburg Fire”.

              Mark Sachara’s red truck is the one that has the vehicle Unit ID number “C-81″ on the back and is seen in that ‘smoky’ photo of the vehicles up at the intersection of ‘Model Creek Road’ and ‘Double Bar A (Hays) Ranch Road”.

              As of this writing… it is still not known WHO was driving the red pickup that says “Wickenburg Fire” on the door.

        • Marti Reed says

          Something I’m finding interesting. I haven’t seen that bunch of vehicles cross the Air2Air camera so far. And I’ve been looking for them.

          But if the filename indicates an accurate beginning timestamp (PROTIP: name your files for the BEGINNING not the ENDING of a video!!) of 1515, that could be in the 6 minute timegap of (via the Air2Air videos) the 1510 video and the 1544 video (which starts at 1516).

          Thanks for bringing this back into the mix (at least, back into MY mix)!

          • Marti Reed says

            Oh doh!! We don’t know when they left the Incident Command Center. So I will go back and look to see if I can find them exiting.

          • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

            Marti…

            You probably already caught the new post
            above about this… but here is the same
            information down here.

            There IS a ‘Panebaker’ video that shows
            Clawson, Hulburd and Yowell headed
            to Yarnell… and it DOES ‘shoot the gap’ between ‘battery swapouts’ on the Air-To-Air channel video camera.

            Panebaker ( Non-Air-To-Air channel ) video…
            20130630_161620_VLAT_split_1_EP

            At the very START of the video… Jason Clawson has already come over the hill in that aquamarine PNF Pickup towing a trailer and his UTV. Hulburd and Yowell are on the road behind him.

            At +9 seconds… Clawson is dead-center in the video.

            This is the same Air Study video that captures the 4:16 PM radio exchanges with Eric Marsh and Jesse Steed.

            At about +33 is when we hear that first “Granite Mountain… what’s your STATUS right now?” query from someone in fire command ( Sachara? )… and then Marsh starts his ‘obtuse talk’ and never fully answers any of the questions.

  36. WantsToKnowTheTruth says

    **
    ** PHOTOS OF MARTY COLE ( MARTIN C. COLE )

    Marty Cole ( Full name Martin C. Cole ) is (apparently) 53 years old.
    He retired with a full pension from Prescott Fire Department 3 years
    ago, in 2011.

    When he retired… the Chino Valley Review ( he lives in Chino Valley )
    did a story about him and it has a really good picture of him.

    It shows him full face-front to the camera along with his son, Tyler Cole,
    who at the time the article was written has just been hired as a firefighter
    by the Prescott National Forest.

    The Chino Valley Review
    Article Title: Into the heat with my dad

    ( NOTE: I can’t seem to post the URL for this article. I will see if it posts
    as a ‘reply’ below. If not… this article is easily ‘Goggled’ using info above ).

    Marty Cole appears to be ‘just another guy with a mustache’.

    I believe he is the one on the left side of that Tom Story photo which shows an FF in a yellow helmet holding his ‘palm’ open for another guy with a CAMP ball cap on.

    What is happening there is that the FF with the yellow helmet ( Marty Cole? ) has something written on the palm of his hand and the guy in the CAMO ball cap is, in turn, reading that and writing it down on the palm of his OWN hand.

    I’m talking about the very first photo that Tom Story took in the RHR parking lot.
    Photo 1677. I believe that might be Marty Cole in the ‘bright yellow’ helmet on the left side. The WHITE TACOMA is already there with its door already open.

    • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

      Ok… I tried like 20 times to get that Chino Valley Review article
      URL to post… but no joy. WordPress is puking on SOMETHING in the URL itself.

      So to find that article ( and that picture of Marty Cole ) just use
      ‘The Google’ and search for all the following words…

      Marty Cole Chino Valley Review

      That article with that picture of Cole should be the very first
      HIT at the top of the Google search results.

  37. WantsToKnowTheTruth says

    **
    ** FOLLOWUP TO THE CANADIAN UPSLOPE TESTING
    **
    ** ESTIMATED RATES OF UPSLOPE TRAVEL APPLIED TO EACH
    ** SEGMENT OF THE ‘JOURNEY’ FROM DEPLOYMENT SITE BACK
    ** UP TO THE ‘DESCENT POINT’.

    Here is that ‘followup’ mentioned above which DOES show how the ‘rates of upslope travel’ in the Canadian study apply specifically to the ACTUAL 16 different ‘segments’ of any ‘return trip’ through the drainage that might have been attempted by Granite Mountain.

    I had to make this a ‘followup’ parent comment to get the maximum WordPress display width for the TABLES included below, so they wouldn’t be ‘messed up’.

    Again… those ‘meter per minute’ upslope travel rate values in the Canadian WFF study translate to…

    Gentle slopes ( 10 to 20 percent slope )…
    55 m/min = 2.05 mph / 180.446 feet per minute

    Steeper slopes ( 20 to 40 percent slope )…
    37 m/min = 1.37 mph / 121.391 feet per minute

    VERY Steep slopes ( 40 to 60 percent slope )…
    18 m/min = 0.67 mph / 59.0551 feet per minute

    So.. just using the ‘brute force’ approach here for the ‘slope rates’ versus ‘travel rates’ quoted in the Canadian study… here is each 100 ‘segment’ of the ‘Descent Point’ to ‘Deployment’ site trip ( in the drainage area ) with the corresponding ‘could be expected’ baseline travel rate now added to the end of each line…

    TABLE columns…
    Point#, Lat, Long, Run (ft), Elevation ( Rise ), Slope percent, Slope angle (degrees)

    ** NEW Column on the end: Estimated TIME to travel each 100 foot segment.

    01) 34.221838, -112.782458, +000.000 ft, 5492 ( -00 ft ), 00, 00.00 – On two-track

    NOTE: These next four 100 foot ‘segments’ of the ‘journey’ fall in the Canadian study ‘Steep slopes’ category ( 20 – 40 percent slope )… but even though they are all in the LOWER end of that category I just used their estimated 37 m/min = 1.37 mph / 121.391 feet per minute travel rate for ALL 20-40 percent slopes.

    That comes out to 2.02 feet per second which means it would (supposedly) would have taken 45.45 seconds to travel each of these FOUR 100 foot segments…

    02) 34.221864, -112.782120, +100.834 ft, 5468 ( -24 ft ), 24, 13.49, 45.45 sec
    03) 34.221886, -112.781779, +100.027 ft, 5442 ( -26 ft ), 26, 14.57, 45.45 sec
    04) 34.221873, -112.781431, +100.521 ft, 5414 ( -28 ft ), 28, 15.64, 45.45 sec
    05) 34.221844, -112.781109, +100.185 ft, 5390 ( -24 ft ), 24, 13.49, 45.45 sec

    Total time to travel these FOUR 100′ segments = 181.81 sec ( 3 mins 1.81 sec )

    The NEXT FOUR 100 foot segments of the journey fall into the VERY STEEP category ( 40 to 60 percent slope ) in the Canadian study. That reduces the ‘expected’ travel rate to 18 m/min = 0.67 mph / 59.0551 feet per minute. That comes out to just under 1 foot per second ( 0.98 ft per sec ) which means it (supposedly) would have taken 102.04 seconds ( 1 minute 42.04 seconds ) to travel each of these FOUR 100 foot segments…

    06) 34.221717, -112.780819, +100.352 ft, 5350 ( -40 ft ), 40, 21.80, 1:42.04
    07) 34.221580, -112.780543, +100.028 ft, 5308 ( -42 ft ), 42, 22.78, 1:42.04
    08) 34.221460, -112.780235, +100.365 ft, 5260 ( -48 ft ), 48, 25.64, 1:42.04
    09) 34.221378, -112.779915, +100.942 ft, 5220 ( -40 ft ), 40, 21.80, 1:42.04

    Total time to travel these FOUR 100′ segments = 408.16 sec ( 6 mins 48.16 sec )

    The next THREE 100 foot segments fall back into ‘category 2′ of the Canadian study… but this time on the HIGHER end of the 20-40 percent slope range. Regardless… according to the study that still comes out to 2.02 feet per second which means it would (supposedly) would have taken 45.45 seconds to travel each of these next THREE 100 foot segments.

    10) 34.221267, -112.779607, +100.509 ft, 5186 ( -34 ft ), 34, 18.77, 45.45
    11) 34.221052, -112.779398, +100.822 ft, 5150 ( -36 ft ), 36, 19.79, 45.45
    12) 34.220961, -112.779092, +100.028 ft, 5120 ( -30 ft ), 30, 16.69, 45.45

    Total time to travel these THREE 100’ segments = 136.35 sec ( 2 mins 16.35 sec )

    We are now getting down into the FLATTER areas, but for the next TWO 100 foot segments was are still ‘officially’ in the LOW end of category 2 as far as the Canadian study goes… so that still comes out to 2.02 feet per second which means it would (supposedly) would have taken 45.45 seconds to travel each of these next TWO 100 foot segments.

    13) 34.220923, -112.778767, +100.470 ft, 5097 ( -23 ft ), 23, 12.95, 45.45
    14) 34.220808, -112.778464, +100.366 ft, 5072 ( -25 ft ), 25, 14.03, 45.45

    Total time to travel these TWO 100′ segments = 90.9 sec ( 1 min 30.90 sec )

    For the next THREE 100 foot ‘segments’ we are now definitely down in the FLAT areas where there was basically no appreciable SLOPE at all.

    Just BEFORE the paragraph above from the report that establishes rates of travel for SLOPES… the Canadian report also establishes an estimated travel rate for ‘rough but flat’ terrain.
    __________________________________________________________________
    On the basis of the reconstructed travel rates of firefighters involved in the Mann Gulch and South Canyon fires, Butler et al. (2000) suggested that the average sustainable travel rates for firefighters over rough but flat terrain would average about 80 m/min, with faster rates as high as 128 m/min possible given stable footing.
    __________________________________________________________________

    Since there is hardly any ‘slope’ at all in the next THREE segments… but they could definitely be considered ‘rough’ terrain because of the manzanita… I am going to just use the travel rates established above in the report for this ‘kind’ of terrain. Since we are also talking about an ’emergency’ situation here… I am also going to assume that if there were ANY sections where they men MIGHT have been able to achieve the ‘faster rates’ quoted above in the report… it would be these three ‘relatively flat’ sections before they started really hitting the ‘sloped’ sections and started ‘losing time’.

    128 m/min = 4.772 mph / 419 feet per minute / 6.99 feet per second.

    That means it could have only taken 14.30 seconds to cover each of these 100 foot segments in ‘rough but flat’ terrain and they would have only had to maintain that ‘maximum speed’ for 31.30 seconds before reaching the SLOPED area(s).

    15) 34.220699, -112.778161, +100.431 ft, 5062 ( -10 ft ), 10, 05.71, 14.30 sec
    16) 34.220595, -112.777847, +100.630 ft, 5056 ( -06 ft ), 06, 03.43, 14.30 sec
    17) 34.220469, -112.777614, +084.641 ft, 5052 ( -04 ft ), 04, 02.29, 14.30 sec

    Total time to travel these THREE 100′ segments = 42.91 sec

    ** THE TOTALS

    Here are the ‘totals’ for each of the ‘group’ of segments above that fell into varying ‘slope rates’ and varying ‘estimated rates of travel’…

    STEEP ( Low end )
    Total time to travel these 4 100 foot segments = 181.81 sec ( 3 min 01.81 sec )
    VERY STEEP ( Low end )
    Total time to travel these 4 100 foot segments = 408.16 sec ( 6 min 48.16 sec )
    STEEP ( High end )
    Total time to travel these 3 100 foot segments = 136.35 sec ( 2 min 16.35 sec )
    STEEP ( Low end )
    Total time to travel these 2 100 foot segments = 090.90 sec ( 1 min 30.90 sec )
    ROUGH BUT RELATIVELY FLAT
    Total time to travel these 3 100 foot segments = 042.91 sec ( 0 min 42.91 sec )

    Total time to travel all 16 100 foot segments = 860.13 sec ( 14 min 20.13 sec )

    ** SUMMARY

    So… one more time for good measure… HERE is the full ‘segment’ table for the ‘journey’ without all the ‘explanatory’ notes from above. It just has the ‘expected travel time’ on the end of each line, according to the Canadian ‘upslope travel’ study… and then the TOTAL TIME again at the bottom of the table…

    TABLE columns…
    Point#, Lat, Long, Run (ft), Elevation ( Rise ), Slope percent, Slope angle (degrees)

    ** NEW Column on the end: Estimated TIME to travel each 100 foot segment.

    01) 34.221838, -112.782458, +000.000 ft, 5492 ( -00 ft ), 00, 00.00, On two-track
    02) 34.221864, -112.782120, +100.834 ft, 5468 ( -24 ft ), 24, 13.49, 0:45.45
    03) 34.221886, -112.781779, +100.027 ft, 5442 ( -26 ft ), 26, 14.57, 0:45.45
    04) 34.221873, -112.781431, +100.521 ft, 5414 ( -28 ft ), 28, 15.64, 0:45.45
    05) 34.221844, -112.781109, +100.185 ft, 5390 ( -24 ft ), 24, 13.49, 0:45.45
    06) 34.221717, -112.780819, +100.352 ft, 5350 ( -40 ft ), 40, 21.80, 1:42.04
    07) 34.221580, -112.780543, +100.028 ft, 5308 ( -42 ft ), 42, 22.78, 1:42.04
    08) 34.221460, -112.780235, +100.365 ft, 5260 ( -48 ft ), 48, 25.64, 1:42.04
    09) 34.221378, -112.779915, +100.942 ft, 5220 ( -40 ft ), 40, 21.80, 1:42.04
    10) 34.221267, -112.779607, +100.509 ft, 5186 ( -34 ft ), 34, 18.77, 0:45.45
    11) 34.221052, -112.779398, +100.822 ft, 5150 ( -36 ft ), 36, 19.79, 0:45.45
    12) 34.220961, -112.779092, +100.028 ft, 5120 ( -30 ft ), 30, 16.69, 0:45.45
    13) 34.220923, -112.778767, +100.470 ft, 5097 ( -23 ft ), 23, 12.95, 0:45.45
    14) 34.220808, -112.778464, +100.366 ft, 5072 ( -25 ft ), 25, 14.03, 0:45.45
    15) 34.220699, -112.778161, +100.431 ft, 5062 ( -10 ft ), 10, 05.71, 0:14.30
    16) 34.220595, -112.777847, +100.630 ft, 5056 ( -06 ft ), 06, 03.43, 0:14.30
    17) 34.220469, -112.777614, +084.641 ft, 5052 ( -04 ft ), 04, 02.29, 0:14.30 Deploy

    Total time to travel all 16 100 foot segments = 860.13 sec ( 14 min 20.13 sec )

    The ADOSH fire progression charts ( which were simply borrowed from the
    SAIT investigators ) show the fireline reaching the crest of the ridge near
    the SAIT’s chosen ‘Descent Point’ at approximately 1650 ( 4:50 PM ).

    Even the SAIT investigators never fully said WHERE they got this exact 1650 time from for the fireline ‘cresting the ridge’… but it can be assumed that this was solely based on a study of that ‘Matt Oss’ time lapse video taken from the Congress side of the fire that day.

    Figure 19 on PDF page number 84 of the SAIR document is an enlarged section of a still from from the Matt Oss video that shows the fire ‘cresting the ridge’ near where the SAIR also chose to define the ‘Descent Point’.

    There is no TIME given for this particular stillframe from the Matt Oss video, but it can be assumed they measured the frames of the Matt-Oss ‘speeded up’ time lapse video and concluded that this image of the fire cresting the ridge represents the 1650 time frame.

    I’m not going to argue that 1650 ‘timestamp’ in the SAIR for that ‘cresting event’ as per the Matt Oss video at this time ( even though there IS evidence to suggest they didn’t get that time quite right. It could have happened slightly LATER than 1650 ).

    So… if we assume that the 1639 MAYDAY call from Steed was, in fact, the exact moment when they first even REALIZED the trouble they were in, and we assume that 1650 is, in fact, the correct minute when the fire was GOING to reach the two-track road and the crest of that ridge…

    Then that only gave them 11 minutes to reach the two-track before
    being ‘caught’ by the fireline ( assuming there was no total area ignition at
    some point before 1650 ).

    I believe it has been established pretty clearly, however, that SOME amount of time had actually passed between when they first realized they were in trouble and the time when we hear Steed’s first MAYDAY. The primary evidence there is that at least TWO chainsaws are heard ‘at work’ right there next to Captain Jesse Steed DURING his FIRST MAYDAY call, which means enough time had already passed for them to…

    1) Realize they trouble they were in
    2) Decide to deploy
    3) Find a deployment site
    4) Pass out instructions to Crew
    5) Pull ropes on chainsaws
    6) Steed selects A2G channel and makes first MAYDAY call

    If we assume that the first FIVE events in the list above must have taken at least 120 seconds ( they MAY have even taken LONGER ) and we still ALSO assume that 1650 is when the fire was GOING to reach the two-track road ( according to the SAIT’s own fire progression chart )…

    Then that gave them at least 13 minutes to reach the two-track before
    being ‘caught’ by the fireline.

    That’s only 80 seconds less than the estimated travel times above based on that Canadian WFF ‘upslope’ travel study.

    ** FINAL NOTE ABOUT THIS STUDY

    While the firefighters who were being ‘tested’ were, in fact, aware that this was an ‘escape route’ upslope/sideslope timing test ( As in… an emergency situation ), and they were being asked to try and maintain a ‘max effort’ for the testing… there was certainly no ‘life or death’ immediacy ( or the corresponding adrenaline boost and/or performance increases that could probably be expected ) included in the study itself.

    They also were most certainly NOT trying to ‘kill’ any of the WFFs participating in the testing OR cause any heart attacks.

    They did NOT attempt to measure the ‘maximum distance’ that the test participants might have been able to maintain the travel rate(s).

    From the report itself…
    _________________________________________________________________
    This study did not set out to determine the maximum distance that firefighters could sustain without resorting to a brief rest period to recover and thus a corresponding reduction in the overall rate of travel. At some point, firefighters will experience an anaerobic collapse where they are physically not able to move any further.
    __________________________________________________________________

    This really is a totally RELEVANT report… and VERY well done… and
    should be REQUIRED READING for all WFFs. It has invaluable information
    and results for CHOOSING ‘Safety zones’ and ‘Escape routes’ in the first place.

    One more interesting set of ‘quotes’ from the ‘Conclusions and Implementation’
    section at the BOTTOM of the report…
    __________________________________________________________________
    Although the concept of escape routes has been a formally recognized element of wildland firefighter safety for almost 50 years (McArdle 1957; Moore 1959), there is little quantitative data or information available on firefighter travel rates using escape routes. This report and Dakin (2002) represent the first formal quantification of firefighter travel rates not only in Alberta but also in Canada.

    Traveling with packs and tools slows the firefighters whether they are on an improved escape route or in a standing timber cover type. Dropping packs and tools to reach the safety zone was shown to improve travel rates of firefighters by an average of 20% under the conditions tested. Roughly the same relationship exists on level ground as well as on slopes.

    ITALICIZED ( EMPHASIZED ) PARAGRAPH…

    Firefighters should IMMEDIATELY drop their packs and tools once they have made the decision to use an escape route to reach a safety zone—it could mean the difference between life and death.
    __________________________________________________________________

    So even though Eric Marsh kept referring to their decision to leave the black as some kind of ‘making our way out our escape route from this morning to our pre-determined safety zone’…

    …it’s perfectly obvious that is NOT really what he ( they ) were doing.

    In fact… it was their very LACK of any sense of ’emergency’ that killed them.

    If they HAD truly decided their ‘situation’ was urgent enough to ‘take an escape route to a safety zone’… then ( as the report suggests above )… they SHOULD have been HURRYING… possibly even HAULING ASS… even if just up on the two-track for the first part of the ‘hike’.

    They were not ( in any great hurry )… but they SHOULD have been.
    They thought they had all the time in the world to get where they were going.
    This was NOT an ‘escape’ to a ‘safety zone’ at all.

    It was simply Marsh/Steed deciding to abandon their Division assignment without fully discussing that decision with people who might have said “No… don’t do that… stay where you are and be safe”… and move themselves OUT of their assigned division to a completely DIFFERENT ‘Division’… ‘where the action was’.

    • mike says

      I agree with Bob. Picking at the decisions made after confronting the flaming front serves no good purpose. Every situation like this is different, “lessons” from this one probably won’t apply the next time. People have run and lived, people have run and died. People have gotten in their shelters and lived, others have done so and died. No one here (including Bob) knows what those few minutes were really like, what they could see, etc. You can calculate until the cows come home – they did not know how much time they had. They knew it wasn’t much. I am sure they were terrified. We do not know if they had done something else that they would have lived. I suspect that they thought (hoped) there was a chance what they were doing was going to work. In these type of situations you have to make what you think is the best decision and go with it. There is usually no second chance. I think when it comes to this part of the Yarnell tragedy, it would be best to just let it go.

      • Marti Reed says

        I pretty much agree with you here.

        Once they got here — and to me the REAL question is STILL why and how they got here — their options were so limited (but maybe if they had run maybe some of them would have survived) that it is counting the angels on the head of the pin at this point.

        But I think where WTKTT is trying to go is that maybe, in their training re deployment sites and such, the wildland ff folks need to take some of what this Canadian study is saying into account.

      • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

        Reply to mike post on June 16, 2014 at 9:39 pm

        mike…

        The ‘numbers’ above are nothing more than the conclusions coming out of some VERY good Canadian WFF research as it applies to what is now one of the greatest losses of life in the history of Wildland Firefighting.

        They are only numbers… but very well researched numbers.

        >> mike said…
        >> In these type of situations you have to make what you
        >> think is the best decision and go with it.

        Yes. You do. ( Keyword = BEST decision ).

        GOOD / BEST decisions are based on knowledge, experience, and knowing what DID or DIDN’T work before.

        >> mike also wrote…
        >> I suspect that they thought (hoped) there was a chance
        >> what they were doing was going to work.

        No need to suspect. They MUST have… or else they would have all RUN. Whether they should have even entertained the possibility that ‘what they were doing was going to work’ is what remains part of the story.

        >> mike also wrote…
        >> I think when it comes to this part of the Yarnell tragedy,
        >> it would be best to just let it go.

        If you actually stop and read the full Canadian research document… you will see that for some opportunities to ‘learn’ something that COULD end up saving lives… there is NO ‘CUT OFF’ point on the timetable.

        Some of the detailed research included in the recent research above revisits fires that happened more than 50 years ago.

        50 years from NOW… I imagine a similar document might actually be referencing what did ( or did not ) happen in Yarnell on June 30, 2013. I actually hope so.

        When it comes to learning something ( ANYTHING ) that might end up saving a life in the future… there is no need to ‘let it go’. Quite the opposite, actually. Hang on to it tight and learn EVERYTHING it is possible to learn.

        • mike says

          The study is interesting as it put #’s on this in way that apparently was not available before. But how it will really be more than an academic curiosity, I just do not see. In each situation like this, the question is whether to run or not. And that means deciding whether you have enough time in fact to run. Too many unique factors impact that in any given situation like this to allow it to be reduced to accurate calculation. And some of those factors are not known until afterwards (most obviously, how much time do you have). The decision to run or not will always be a judgment call, made hastily with limited, imperfect information. Not much to be gained second-guessing those types of decisions.

          • Bob Powers says

            Mike you absolutely have it nailed.
            No body is calculating distances at that point there estimating time to do what ever is best. Estimated time to retreat isn’t calculated but a guess. They were so far committed in that canyon and the time it took to get there. running back up it was not feasible. We also do not know for sure if the fire had lapped over the ridge above them as some progression charts have shown.
            I wanted to reference a posting that WTKTT made on June 13 @1219 am. Crew recount of recovery of bodies USA Today video
            2min 52sec. into it is a areal view of the road an pickup site at the deployment site.
            Boulder piles on either side and above site.
            Look at the truck parked and then the size and compactness of the boulders Many are the size of the truck or bigger trying to climb up thru those to me would have been a herculean feat to accomplish any kind of safety. They were at least well trained and experienced FF if they had thought there was any place that provided a better location for safety they would have taken it.
            They were in a trap and did the only thing they had left to do, dig in and deploy.
            A slim chance of survival but I think the only one they had. The only thing that stands out is why the hell were they there in the first place? Would have , could have , should have 20/20 hind site.
            Still the only lesson here is failure to follow the rules.
            Failure of the equipment that should give you better protection (Fire Shelters).

            • SR says

              You are stating a conclusion, that they were well-trained, to justify a decision, when the same point can be made regarding the original bushwhack — they were well-trained, we should defer to their judgment — to no lookout (well, they were well-trained, maybe they knew they didn’t need a lookout) — to what happened with their lookout when they did have one earlier in the day, to even the sleeves (well, they were well-trained, so knew when they could roll their sleeves up).

              The fire shelters performed as they were expected to.

              • mike says

                And you have persisted in harping on their decisions made after entrapment as evidence of some perceived training deficiencies or incompetence or naivety about using fire shelters – when those were really just horribly difficult decisions made under the most awful of circumstances that had to be made with limited information.

                If they had run and died, someone would be criticizing that. If they had a few more minutes, maybe they could have created an adequate area – I do not know, I was not there.

                Comparing this decision to ones that involved following established firefighting principles, where they had more than enough time to consider the alternatives, is simply inane.

                  • Bob Powers says

                    SR
                    My only reference was GM had enough experience to Identify areas that might have provided a better location for survival if they had passed an open area or rock/bolder area that could have provided a better location evidently they did not see or identify a place they could retreat to.
                    I was not referring to the other mistakes they made that day as we have been thru them and you know my stand on each and every one. The one thing relivent in there mind would have been any place that could have provided a better place to deploy, evidently they did not mentally identify one.
                    Refer to the picture I noted in the video and tell me where you think they could have possibly gone to in any of the bolder piles visible from the deployment site.
                    Huge boulders you can not climb over and from what I see most are 95% black. Not survivable if you could get into them. I rest my case.

                    • SR says

                      Saw the video. Didn’t see any lack of ability to access the boulders.

                      Also, as Frisby’s pickup of McDonough showed, there were ample options in that case, too, for escape, when deployment was being considered instead.

                      We are left with a deployment in an area that could be out of training materials in terms of an example of a bad place to deploy. It’s fine to have differences of opinion as to whether that was the best option for this crew. The takeaways that I hope others to get is that escape often is possible if you stay mindful of options and act early enough, and that deployment in a situation that is likely not survivable is not a good option.

                      Contrary to Mike’s assertion, those are in fact already established principles as well, and part of current training.

      • SR says

        You could just as easily say that picking at the decisions after the first day of the fire fails to serve any purpose. No need to learn anything, wipe the slate clean at the end of each fire.

        As regards decisions made once the risk of entrapment became imminent (several minutes before Steed’s transmission) they are relevant to others for training purposes. They are also very relevant in assessing the origins of other decisions. Decisions seldom happen in a vacuum. GM deployed in an area of dense fuels where there sustained direct flame contact on their shelters was basically assured. Earlier in the day, at a time of relative calm, their lookout assessed deployment options in front of them that may well have also not been survivable. With time to seek other options, and with a variety of resources available to him…had Frisby NOT happened upon him, it’s not clear to me if any effort was intended to help him escape. As discussed, SZ standards also were played a little fast and loose with. There is the matter of the tennis court. From a training perspective, there’s the specific issue of whether there was overreliance on fire shelters in situations they were not intended to be used in (to the exclusion of seeking other available options), and the general issue of whether there were or are any broader organizational tendencies to not observe standards.

        • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

          >> SR said…
          >> As regards decisions made once the risk of
          >> entrapment became imminent (several minutes
          >> before Steed’s transmission) they are relevant to
          >> others for training purposes.

          I could not possibly AGREE more STRONGLY.

          I still wonder what the ‘training walk-thrus’ at this deployment site ( for YEARS and YEARS to come? ) are going to say on the ‘handouts’.

          “Just cut a little more manzanita and everything will be fine?”

            • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

              Okay… what do YOU think the ‘training walks’ are going to emphasize for YEARS to come?

              Simply ‘Don’t ever be here in a situation like this. Nothing else to say?”

              I would certainly hope that whether or not the training walks EVER even have a moment where ‘other options’ they *might* have had will be freely discussed…

              …that the obvious FAILURES at the moment of deployment itself would be ‘reviewed’ for training purposes.

              Only SOME packs were ‘thrown clear’.
              Shirt sleeves still rolled UP.
              Only SOME wearing gloves.
              FEET not facing the oncoming fire.
              Etc., etc.

              And the carte-blanche answer should NOT be “well… they didn’t have time for any of that”.

              The ‘training’ takeaway should be that WHENEVER you are moving cross-country you MIGHT get ‘surprised’ just like they did… so your sleeves should ALREADY be down and your gloves ALREADY on…

              …and as for the pack thing… even the Canadian Deployment study points out that it should not even be POSSIBLE for you to ‘forget to throw your pack’. You should train, and train and train and train doing this so that the moment of pulling your fire shelter AND the moment you ‘throw your pack’ clear of the site is simply one CONTIGUOUS motion. Muscle memory.

              What would YOU add to the ‘training takeaway’ if YOU were standing right there where they died?

  38. WantsToKnowTheTruth says

    **
    ** ACTUAL SLOPE VALUES FOR THE BOX CANYON

    >> On June 15, 2014 at 9:31 am, SR said…
    >>
    >> Good discussion of travel rates, with an eye to objective
    >> discussion of escape/ retreat.
    >>
    >> http://training.nwcg.gov/pre-courses/S390/Advantage%20Article.pdf

    That’s a very RELEVANT study… professionally done with REAL WFFs
    under REAL upslope and sideslope conditions / considerations.

    From the report…
    __________________________________________________________________
    They pointed out that as the slope steepens, a firefighter’s rate of travel
    decreases proportionally. They considered an average rate of travel for a
    relatively gentle slope (i.e., 10–20%) to be approximately 55 m/min, and the
    average sustainable rate for slopes of 20–40% to be approximately 37 m/min.
    For slopes greater than 40%, they suggested that travel rates would diminish
    to less than 18 m/min.
    _________________________________________________________________

    Those ‘meter per minute’ values translate to…

    Gentle slopes ( 10 to 20 percent slope )…
    55 m/min = 2.05 mph / 180.446 feet per minute

    Steeper slopes ( 20 to 40 percent slope )…
    37 m/min = 1.37 mph / 121.391 feet per minute

    VERY Steep slopes ( 40 to 60 percent slope )…
    18 m/min = 0.67 mph / 59.0551 feet per minute

    The SAIT investigators never bothered to figure out the exact ‘slope’ of this ‘Descent Point’ down to the ‘Deployment Site’… or… if they did… they never
    bothered to PUBLISH that information.

    There was only a ‘general’ description of the topography in the SAIR…
    _________________________________________________________________

    PDF page 71 of the SAIR…
    Appendix B: Fire Environment & Behavior Analysis
    ENVIRONMENT
    Topography: The Yarnell Hill Fire occurred on a plateau in west central Arizona with elevations ranging from 4,500 to 6,052 feet above sea level. The fire area is characterized by a mountainous ridge that runs north-south through the western third of the fire area with more rolling terrain to the east (Figure 1). A one-mile long spur-ridge projects WNW-ESE from the main ridge at about the mid-point of the fire. Slopes vary from flat on the east side to 50%, with isolated steeper sites in the mountains on the west side. Numerous rocks and rock outcroppings are scattered through the fire area (Figure 2).
    __________________________________________________________________

    NOTE: There actually DOES appear to have been at least one 100 foot segment of Granite Mountain’s descent where they WERE dealing with an ‘almost 50 percent slope’ ( 48 percent )… but that was only for 100 feet. See below.

    So let’s do the ‘homework’ that the SAIT didn’t bother to do with regards to the ACTUAL ‘slope’ values present in that box canyon where the deployment took place.

    NOTE: For all of the calculations below… we are using the actual data published by the SAIR for the ‘Descent Point’ ( the point where they left the two-track road ) and their own published coordinates for the CENTER of the ‘Deopoyment Site’. The latter has proved to be accurate but their actual choice for the ‘Descent Point’ has never really been totally verified. Regardless… we will use what the SAIT published as ‘fact’ for this evaluation.

    The elevation at the Descent Point was 5492 ft.
    The elevation at the Deployment site was 5052 ft.

    That’s a change in elevation of 440 feet.

    As far as the DISTANCE goes… it turns out that that the 470 yards ( 1,410 feet ) published by the SAIT as the actual ‘distance’ from their chosen ‘Descent Point’ to the center of the ‘Deployment site’ was a straight line… and measured ‘as the bird flies’ to be 470 yards.

    That does NOT match the ACTUAL ‘ground distance’ covered as represented by their own ‘yellow squiggly line’ that (supposedly) shows the exact route GM took ‘in the drainage’ coming down from the two-track to the deployment site. THAT distance turns out to be 181 feet longer and 1,591 feet of actual ‘distance traveled’.

    Just for gags, though… and before I get into the actual ‘point by point’ trace of that ‘yellow squiggle line’ published by the SAIT… let’s just see what the ‘travel rates’ in the report above say regarding the ‘straight line’ distance measurement published by the SAIT.

    According to the SAIR…

    Distance ( a straight line ) from Descent point to Deployment site is…

    0.27 miles / 470 yards / 1,410 feet.

    At 55 m/min ( slope = 10-20 ) it would have taken 07.81 mins to travel 1,410 feet.
    At 37 m/min ( slope = 20-40 ) it would have taken 11.61 mins to travel 1,410 feet.
    At 18 m/min ( slope = 40-60 ) it would have taken 23.87 mins to travel 1,410 feet.

    ** THE REAL DISTANCE ( AND THE REAL SLOPE VALUES )

    The SAIR shows a ‘yellow squiggly line’ on one of their topo maps of the box canyon that (supposedly) represents the EXACT route that GM took for the Descent.

    That ‘yellow squiggle line’ comes off the two-track almost due east, then shows them turning southeast and coming down in a defined ‘drainage’ all the way to the floor of the box canyon, where it then ‘leveled off’. It then shows the ‘deployment site’ just a few hundred feet away across basically ‘level’ ground after they finished their descent in the drainage.

    I took that ‘yellow squiggly line’ from their TOPO map and ‘overlaid’ it onto an actual satellite image of the same route. I then plotted 17 different ‘points’ along that ‘yellow squiggly line’ each almost exactly 100 feet apart from each other… all the way from where they say GM exited the two-track down to the center of the deployment site.

    For EACH of these 17 ‘parts’ of their descent journey in that drainage… the actual GPS points AND the actual ‘Run’ and ‘Rise’ values ( used to calculate standard SLOPE values ) between each point are shown in the table below.

    ** THE DESCENT JOURNEY ( WITH SLOPE VALUES )…

    From ‘Descent Point’ down to ‘Deployment Site’, starting with estimated point where they exited the two-track road AND following exactly that ‘yellow squiggly line’ published in the SAIR as the actual path GM took down to the Deployment site ( via the drainage that was there )…

    TABLE columns…
    #, Lat, Long, Run (ft), Elevation ( Rise ), Slope (percent), Slope angle (degrees)

    01) 34.221838, -112.782458, +000.000 ft, 5492 ( -00 ft ), 00, 00.00 – On two-track
    02) 34.221864, -112.782120, +100.834 ft, 5468 ( -24 ft ), 24, 13.49
    03) 34.221886, -112.781779, +100.027 ft, 5442 ( -26 ft ), 26, 14.57
    04) 34.221873, -112.781431, +100.521 ft, 5414 ( -28 ft ), 28, 15.64
    05) 34.221844, -112.781109, +100.185 ft, 5390 ( -24 ft ), 24, 13.49
    06) 34.221717, -112.780819, +100.352 ft, 5350 ( -40 ft ), 40, 21.80
    07) 34.221580, -112.780543, +100.028 ft, 5308 ( -42 ft ), 42, 22.78
    08) 34.221460, -112.780235, +100.365 ft, 5260 ( -48 ft ), 48, 25.64
    09) 34.221378, -112.779915, +100.942 ft, 5220 ( -40 ft ), 40, 21.80
    10) 34.221267, -112.779607, +100.509 ft, 5186 ( -34 ft ), 34, 18.77
    11) 34.221052, -112.779398, +100.822 ft, 5150 ( -36 ft ), 36, 19.79
    12) 34.220961, -112.779092, +100.028 ft, 5120 ( -30 ft ), 30, 16.69
    13) 34.220923, -112.778767, +100.470 ft, 5097 ( -23 ft ), 23, 12.95
    14) 34.220808, -112.778464, +100.366 ft, 5072 ( -25 ft ), 25, 14.03
    15) 34.220699, -112.778161, +100.431 ft, 5062 ( -10 ft ), 10, 05.71
    16) 34.220595, -112.777847, +100.630 ft, 5056 ( -06 ft ), 06, 03.43
    17) 34.220469, -112.777614, +084.641 ft, 5052 ( -04 ft ), 04, 02.29 – Deployment

    Totals…

    Ground distance actually traveled = 1,591.151 feet

    That’s 181 feet farther than the straight line 1,410 ‘as the bird flies’ distance reported by the SAIR from the ‘Descent Point’ down to the ‘Deployment Site’.

    Total elevation drop from two-track to center of
    deployment site = 440 feet ( 5492 feet minus 5052 feet ).

    For an overall ‘Rise divided by Run’ Slope percent value from the Descent Point all the way to the center of the Deployment Site… we get these ‘Slope’ values…

    Rise ( 440 ft ) divided by Run ( 1591 ft ) = 0.27

    Overall Slope = 27 percent.
    Overall Slope Angle = 15.45 degrees

    So as you can see from these REAL ( actual ) SLOPE values for their journey down from the two-track ( if they really did come down in that drainage as the SAIT says they did )… you can’t just apply one single ‘rate of travel’ from the Canadian study to the the entire journey.

    The SLOPE values kept CHANGING… and some parts of the ‘journey’ took place where there was basically no SLOPE at all… and for SOME 100 foot segments of the ‘journey’ the slope was in the 40 percentile. VERY steep.

    That’s all I have time for at the moment.

    I am going to come back to this and try to use the estimates from the Canadian study to put a more exact ‘possible’ (return) rate of travel on these slope values, given each 100 foot ‘part’ of the journey… just to see what that looks like.

    More later…

    • SR says

      Good stuff.

      In terms of the rates of travel used in the Canadian study for uphill travel, I’d note in terms of slippage of rate that the brush etc. that slowed GM going down would have likewise been a factor on the way up.

      It’s also relevant to note the ratio and grade for, for instance, the distance from the deployment site to possible places of intermediate refuge, such as the knolls to looker’s right, which end up being moderate grades overall, with steeper pushes once the angle kicks at the more-rocky ground.

      • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

        Reply to SR post on June 16, 2014 at 8:05 am

        >> SR said…
        >> In terms of the rates of travel used in the Canadian
        >> study for uphill travel, I’d note in terms of slippage of
        >> rate that the brush etc. that slowed GM going down
        >> would have likewise been a factor on the way up.

        Probably so… but we still don’t know if they actually had the saws running on the way down and there really, truly was some ‘bushwacking’ going on by the fellas up front to try and make it easier travel for the fellas behind them. If that was the case… then there *MAY* have been a much clearer path *BACK* than there was going down.

        Plus… they had already come that way.

        Just that little bit of ‘familiarity’ of the route they gained on the way down could have offset the ‘slippage’ on the time estimates for a ‘return trip’. As in… they had already see the route and knew where the ‘clearest’ parts were.

        Some people call that ‘scouting’.
        Having first-hand knowledge of what a route looks like before you have to travel it again.

        See the new post above with the promised ‘segment by segment’ travel rates… based on the Canadian study.

        Somewhere in there… they actually might have only been missing about 80 seconds… which a full-blown life-or-death adrenaline performance boost *MIGHT* have easily
        supplied.

        >> SR also wrote…
        >> It’s also relevant to note the ratio and grade for, for
        >> instance, the distance from the deployment site to
        >> possible places of intermediate refuge, such as the
        >> knolls to looker’s right, which end up being moderate
        >> grades overall, with steeper pushes once the angle
        >> kicks at the more-rocky ground.

        I don’t think there’s any question that they had the TIME to reach any number of other ‘places’ to their left, right, and yes… even FORWARD of their position. The fireline was NOT coming ‘right at them’ even at 1639. It was coming AROUND the corner of that north-side rock ridge and still just ‘swinging around’ circa 1639. Even the officially published SAIT and ADOSH fire progression charts show this to be the case.

        It was all about Situational Awareness
        ( or, actually, the total LACK of it )

        They had no maps.
        They had done no scouting.
        They had no frickin’ idea what the terrain AHEAD of
        them even really looked like… or that once past that small knoll just ahead of them to their right there was that open draw just ahead of THAT which led AWAY from the fire and towards the Candy Cane Lane area.

        Regardless of what all the ‘contributing factors’ were that led them ( Marsh / Steed ) to even make this decision to break almost every rule in the book just for the sake of some perceived ‘higher purpose’… the ACTUAL ( tactical ) way they went about it really, truly is…

        “One of the greatest ( if not THE greatest ) blunders in the history of Wildland Firefighting”.

        • Marti Reed says

          Having just recently read Byron Kimball’s interview (and I’m writing this off the top of my head so I can’t directly quote him).

          He talks about how, in stressful/fearful situations, people — including firefighters — kind of “fall back” in their thinking (and I know I do). We kind of “close the ranks” to simplify the factors we are dealing with. Which can turn around and bite us.

          He talks about how, say, a DIVS will “become” a crew supervisor, a crew supervisor will “become” a captain, a captain will “become” a squad boss, and so on. People will “revert” to a level below where they are supposed to be (and normally are capable of) operating. And how, sometimes, in doing that, they “close off” to exactly the information they need. It’s just too overwhelming.

          He talks about how he thinks that really needs to be addressed. And he was very, very serious about that. And I think he was spot on.

          I really appreciate this analysis of those slope factors. It makes a lot of sense to me. Including from my own experience from ten years of backpacking and leading groups in the Grand Canyon. Including once on a broken foot. Going both up and down. When I learned the hard way that going up was, actually, relatively faster and easier than going down. That doesn’t “make any sense”, but it is true. Gravity can actually be a problem, relatively speaking.

          And I’m sitting here comfortably in front of a computer. Not suddenly realizing there is a fire headed in my direction.

          I think you have demonstrated that, if GM had accurately analyzed their situation at the very beginning of their encounter with the fact that the fire had looped around that point and was entering that canyon, it would have been possibly relatively better for them to drop their packs and scramble back up that canyon. They might have not all made it. But they might have.

          But what they did was commit together to something that really had no chance of succeeding, all things considered. Hunkering down in the relative bottom of a bowl that had a really fast hot fire aimed right at it.

          And that’s where Byron’s reflections come in. When they saw that fire coming at them from under them, and realized their situation, they probably “shut down” their ability to analyze it all really quickly, to calculate the relative values of scrambling back up vs hunkering down, and made something of a bet, and it was a losing bet.

          It’s just pretty hard to do that “math” when you realize you’re in a chimney and there’s a fire burning right underneath you.

          • Marti Reed says

            And also, Bob Powers’ envisioning an area ignition effect needs to be taken into consideration.

            All things considered, the absolute fact of the matter is they should have never ever been there in the first place.

            I guess quite a bit more training truly should be done regarding analyzing deployment sites vs just “drop the packs and run” and such if a crew finds itself in an extremely dangerous situation, but the fact of the matter is that this was NEVER an “escape route” to a “safety zone” from the get go. And that is what really needs to be DEALT WITH.

            • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

              Yes. It does.

              Even some people being interviewed said they were ‘pretty sure’ they thought they heard Marsh say something about ‘making our way out our escape route to our safety zone’… and then they indicated that even upon hearing THOSE WORDS they didn’t sense any kind of ’emergency’ or the need to even ‘pay attention’.

              That’s bullshit.

              Making a MOVE ( and using words to THAT effect ) is one thing.

              ‘Making our way out our ESCAPE route to our SAFETY zone’ should ALWAYS make people ‘sit up and pay attention’.

              WHENEVER those words ( ‘Escape’, ‘Safety Zone’ ) hit the airwaves… that SHOULD automatically be considered a ‘serious situation’ and a LOT of people should drop what they are doing and pay full attention at that point.

              If it is NOT an ’emergency’…
              then for chrissakes… don’t use
              those WORDS ( ‘Escaping’, etc. ).

              Those WORDS should be ‘reserved’ for situations as described ( and tested ) in the Canadian report. Whenever you are ‘escaping’ to your ‘safety zone’… it should be considered an ’emergency’ broadcast and all kinds of support calls and monitoring should then ‘kick in’ to make sure…

              1) Everyone knows WHERE you are
              2) Everyone knows your situation
              3) You are closely MONITORED
              until you do ‘escape’ to your ‘safety zone’.

              The general reaction to hearing words on the radio like “We’re making our way out our ESCAPE route to our SAFETY zone” should NEVER be treated with indifference or responses like…

              “Copy that. Whatever. Catch ya later”.

  39. SR says

    WTKTT said “The math as to whether running/climbing directly AWAY from the fire for those 7 minutes would have been ‘maintaining’ a time/distance factor enough to achieve a survivable result ( up on the two-track? ) is complicated and is totally based on the real speed of the fire and whether there really was, circa 1650, total ‘area ignition’.” I don’t think that’s the relevant math. Sustained retreat directly upslope isn’t physically doable in that situation. However, sidehill travel with only a short push uphill is doable at a good sustained clip. And, there was time for this, and available real estate to do this.

    • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

      Yes. There was. Standby for a post showing the ACTUAL ‘slope’ values at play here combined with information from that ( excellent ) Canadian study regarding what ‘rates of travel’ CAN be expected in ‘upslope/sideslope’ conditions… done with REAL testing with REAL WFFs under REAL conditions.

      The SAIT never even bothered to measure the actual SLOPE factors in that area, or publish any data about that.

      Well… I took their published ‘squiggly line’ and turned it into GPS coordinates complete with actual ‘slope’ values.

      I will post those results shortly.

      • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

        TABLE has been posted just above with that ‘yellow squiggly line’ from the SAIR reported plotted as 17 different GPS points exactly 100 feet apart… with the ‘Rise divided by Run’ standard SLOPE percents and SLOPE angles.

        There WERE places where the SLOPE percent they had to deal with was in the 40 percentile range… but then there are other places where it wasn’t near that bad…. and some 100 foot segments were basically on ‘level ground’.

        • Bob Powers says

          The real question that no one answered was the trail they cut and how open was it for a run back up hill thru brush around rocks or over them. In a bush whack you cut just enough to move thru it not necessarily a 4 ft. wide path so some areas would slow you down from a full run or fast retreat.
          Just remember they were cutting a path not building a trail or a “fire break” as at storm king MT. they retreated up a fire line wide and well defined only one made that run safely, and he had some bad burns.
          Also based on the looks of the moon scape burned area I would say there is a better than average chance that the canyon experienced area ignition with the collapse of the smoke column, again my guess with no proof. If so there was no flaming front to out run but a fire ball engulfing the entire canyon to the saddle. Again that is why canyons and draws are not a good place to be. The (loope Fire 1966) with fire below you. It is a flash over or area ignition of gasses coming off of preheated fuels like Brush in a contained environment.

          • Joy A. Collura says

            I can answer a portion of this comment. I can share to you depending the location of their true descend down—there are areas you can move down in a swift movement but not move up before that fire. the maze-like effect was on the steep way up but you could maneuver in certain areas without any bushwacking at all going down depending how the crew were led down-

            • Bob Powers says

              Joy thanks
              I am not sure you can help with where they descended as that to my knowledge was never determined and would have been obliterated by all that went up and down from the saddle to the site. You may be able to help WTKTT with the possible areas where there would have been less resistance.

              • FIRE20+ says

                Bob, you recall the audio caught on the Air Study? “The guys, uh Granite is makin their way down (predetermined escape route) from this mornin, it’s uh, south, mid slope, cut vertical. (We’ll) be makin our way down into the structures. (Are you on the ER) with Granite Mountain right now? Nah, I’m at the (house) where we’re gonna jump out at.”
                Barring all debatable words in this BUT the “south, mid slope, cut vertical”…what do you make of those words? “South” to me is S of the heel of the fire from their known location. “Midslope”, well that ones always bugged me. If I used that word in fighting fire I can picture what it means, but looking at GM’s movements I don’t get it. Is Eric calling the 2 track GM walked out on as mid slope? And “cut vertical”, well that has a few different possibilities that could’ve/should’ve left evidence behind. And in regard to your comment above “Just remember they were cutting a path not building a trail or a ‘fire break’ as at storm king MT.” That’s for sure, this path on Yarnell would have been rocky, steep and “vertical cut” leaving behind stobs that are pointed and not flush. Joe pokes. One person couldn’t have moved through that p-line quickly, let alone 19 people.

                • SR says

                  I think the whole “cut vertical” thing was window dressing; this was also a crew with a reported culture of secrecy as to crew movements. At the moment their route was described as “cut vertical,” it wasn’t cut, so at best this then would seem to have been a forward-looking statement. Cutting a well-cleared path would have led to an even slower pace than they had, so maybe they did a little cutting here and there, but emphasis on the little.

                  “Mid-slope” is also a little fuzzy in context.

                  Making their way down into “structures” is also fuzzy.

                  Same number of words could have told people exactly where they were and were headed.

                  • FIRE20+ says

                    Who’s to say that the person who asked if Eric was “on the escape route with Granite Mountain right now” didn’t know what those words meant? We still don’t know who this person is Eric is speaking to and to assume that NOBODY knew what Eric meant, well I disagree.

                    • SR says

                      Were they talking code then? Because with your 20+ years experience, you legitimately find what was said…unclear. And rightly so. Midslope normally means mid-slope, not a vertical line. Cut vertical implies, well, cut. When there is no evidence that route was scouted, much less improved, earlier in the day.

                      I don’t think this code of any sort, fwiw. Whatever the reason, just a very unclear use of language when clarity would have been easily achieved. Sort of like asking someone what they did yesterday and they respond, “a little of this and a little of that.”
                      One takeway on this point is the person on the other side of the conversation SHOULD have pressed for clarity.

              • Joy A. Collura says

                well we did find that burnt pink tape roll on the ridge and you can take OSHA and SAIR’s reports and know general area they descended but noone knows exact location—unless the YCSO took photos of the area and it shows in that the very first pis of area but I can tell you from the saddle to the other side of boulders it was a maze-like terrain and the men dropped somewhere between in and yes there were areas before that going down was areas you did not have to bushwack and yes, going up was not the same as going down not because of the steep terrain but how that dense area was intertwined in vegetation—but nobody can make pure calculations just guesses based on facts shown to date- I am excited- not because ABC will be here tomorrow but because I have to meet with 3 people who want to go over their photos this week—and I did not have to go to them just by running today I ran into them on the highway; sweet.

                  • Bob Powers says

                    Fire20+
                    I agree I have been confused by much of what you referred to. The only thing I could figure was the 2 parties knew what they were saying to each other and not being a part of the whole conversation with maybe parts missing we are left with some confusion here.

                    • FIRE20+ says

                      Again SR making statements like you know the guy on the other end of EM’s transmission first didn’t know what he meant, second they SHOULD have pressed for clarity. How do you know they didn’t? The whole damn fire wasn’t recorded on anyones phone/camera! It’s hard to believe that you think you know all this or at least write like you do. Your effort at take aways have good intent but I am not sure of the wholeness of them. It’s always irritated, people saying GM had no lookout, the ER wasn’t scouted, nobody knew what the ‘code’ EM used meant, on and on. You’re beginning to sound like one of the SAI Investigators.
                      P.S. Bob you might need to referee this one.

          • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

            Reply to Bob Powers post on
            June 16, 2014 at 8:04 am

            >> Mr. Powers said…
            >> The real question that no one answered
            >> was the trail they cut and how open
            >> was it for a run back up hill thru
            >> brush around rocks or over them.

            Yes. I don’t think it has ever been determined with any real certainty whether these fellas were ‘cutting their way’ down, or not.

            If the four chainsaws were ‘up front’ and ‘running’… then they could have been ‘clearing the way’ for the others behind them.

            >> In a bush whack you cut just enough
            >> to move thru it not necessarily a 4 ft.
            >> wide path so some areas would slow
            >> you down from a full run or fast retreat.

            Again… not a good enough investigation took place and not enough hard evidence to know about this. They might have been taking out every single impediment to a return trip while on the way down… OR… they might have been doing nothing of the sort. We still don’t know for sure.

            >> Just remember they were cutting a path
            >> not building a trail or a “fire break” as at
            >> storm king MT.

            See above. We can’t say for sure WHAT they might have been doing… or how WIDE a ‘path’ they were cutting, if they were cutting at all.

            >> Also based on the looks of the moon
            >> scape burned area I would say there is a
            >> better than average chance that the
            >> canyon experienced area ignition with
            >> the collapse of the smoke column, again
            >> my guess with no proof.

            Based on the ‘moonscaping’ and the photos… yes… I would also say that probably happened… but the BIG question would be WHEN it happened. What TIME?

            • SR says

              WTKTT, by pace you actually can infer that they weren’t cutting that much, and by extension that going back straight uphill would still be pretty obstructed. The type of brush they were moving through is pretty tangled, so removing a limb still leaves other limbs.

              • Bob Powers says

                Simple area ignition is at the point of Colum collapse. my guess 1649/1650.
                Again I have bush wacked with a crew thru thick brush cut enough for a person to walk thru when it is really thick only 1 saw can cut at a time we used brush hooks a lot for the same thing stuff the brush cut in a hole and move forward not any thing that would be a wide cut and some time just a couple of branches between bushes. Running would be greatly slowed by the open area. They were not expecting to go back up the way they came down.

  40. Bob Powers says

    Having reread some thing and have Fire20+ put me back on track I will first say what I have said before I hate trying to communicate thru typing what I think and feel.
    First let me say in no way was I insulting or attempting to ether SR or WTKTT.
    I was attempting to say my experience in wild land fire and training was much more than yours.
    My thoughts on the bolder fields were and still are different than yours, I will try again to explain further.
    From what I saw of the boulder fields on either side of the deployment site and for some distance above in the canyon, both pre and post burn. With my experience they did not look survivable, my evaluation. So I look at what GM overhead saw they walk down thru that canyon had any of them saw a location that they could have retreated to clearing or rock pile I believe they would have done so. Again that leads me to a conclusion they were where they were and dug in and deployed.
    Based on the things we have discussed over the past few months I would again ask the question. Did GM rely to heavily on deployment sites and the fire shelter? Even falling back to any other area where they were they were still faced with digging in and deploying.
    So these are my thoughts– hopefully with my understanding and experience. and not to assume that I am putting thoughts into GM overhead as to what they may or may not have thought.
    What did they believe the time estimate was to find a location, prep it and deploy? WTKTT has a couple of estimates even 7 min. is a very short time to burn over.

    Was there any place they could have retreated to in the time they felt they had that was any better? If there was they would have past it and had a mental note of it.

    I still do not believe that they thought when they deployed that any of them would die and they were sure most would survive.
    thus my statement on shelters 50/50 has nothing to do with percentage and only a death or survival- critically burned survival which none of us would wish for but happens.
    So some of you misunderstood my statement. Deploying where they were or some where else was of little difference. The out come was not good.
    I never said I would keep every body together so they could all die together.

    To try to retreat to a rock pile with little or no space to deploy would have at least meant certain death from preheated air in the time they had. Whit out a flat spot in dirt big enough for each shelter the preheated air would take you.
    Shelters must have an area to deploy and seal in oxygen put your face in the dirt where there is oxygen to breath.
    I saw nothing in the boulders to indicate that kind of area. The crew would have had to fight their way to the boulders and then climbed up and over them to find a place again I just do not believe there was time or location to deploy.
    They dug in and deployed, was it a good location, could they have found another, If they had no place to retreat to dropping packs and running was even a worse than deploy idea.
    So maybe I can say this right I believe they deployed where they were because they were out of options, trapped, and dug in and deployed. Others have done the same and survived and some have not.
    I believe they had a hope that they had done enough and would survive, they were scared as any of us would be but they stayed together and made that decision. Good or bad I am proud they stayed together and at least had a very small chance to survive. I say that believing at that point there was no other choice. that is my personal thoughts only.

    • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

      Bob Powers on June 15, 2014 at 1:03 pm said:

      Thank you (again) for detailing your experienced thought
      process on this. It matches all your previous descriptions
      and I can see that the more you revist it and rethink it you
      stand by even your original conclusions.

      They are VALID conclusions.
      You MAY be duplicating their own thinking process exactly.

      Every time there has been a WFF fatality… there has been a LOT
      of discussion about whether the decisions made on the part of
      those who died were the ‘correct’ ones… or if they had other
      ‘options’ that they did not consider which *MAY* have produced
      different results.

      There is nothing different going on here now… except, perhaps, for
      the fact that this is the first MAJOR fatality incident of the ‘new internet age’ and it is accompanied by TONS of photographic evidence that CAN be looked at and examined.

      I don’t think any other WFF fatality incident has had this same amount of photographic evidence available to the public.

      That availability of evidence is, of course, going to lead to varying opinions… even amongst ‘professionals’.

      >> Mr Powers wrote…
      >> What did they believe the time estimate was to find a location,
      >> prep it and deploy? WTKTT has a couple of estimates
      >> even 7 min. is a very short time to burn over.

      Yes. It is. That 7 minutes is even based on a LOT of ‘guessing’ such as WHEN they actually realized how much trouble they were in… and it also includes the ‘assumption’ that at least TWO of the keyed-mic static transmissions were a direct response to Bravo 33’s questions and *might* indicate that someone was at least still alive enough to key their mic and TRY to respond.

      We KNOW they ‘didn’t have much time’. Not much cutting was actually accomplished, many packs weren’t even thrown clear of where the men that owned them deployed, shirt sleeves were still fully ROLLED UP when they went into shelters, only some even bothered ( or had time ) to put their GLOVES on, some evidence showed that some men died WHILE they were still trying to get fully INTO their shelter… etc., etc.

      Even 7 minutes isn’t even half of the 19 minutes it (supposedly) took them to descend from the two-track to where they died… and any attempt to full-reverse full-retreat would have been uphill. The math as to whether running/climbing directly AWAY from the fire for those 7 minutes would have been ‘maintaining’ a time/distance factor enough to achieve a survivable result ( up on the two-track? ) is complicated and is totally based on the real speed of the fire and whether there really was, circa 1650, total ‘area ignition’.

      Plus… they were EXHAUSTED. Even Tex ( Sonny ) Gilligan said they all looked ‘spent/exhausted’ when they even first saw them that morning… and as an ex-miner who used to work two shifts in the mines… I think we can trust when a man like Mr. Gilligan says he saw ‘exhausted’ men. I think he knows exactly what that looks like. Add to that an entire day’s work in 100+ temperatures and their ability to even accomplish some of the physical feats that might/could be imagined at deployment time was already seriously compromised. Maybe they all simply knew that, too.

      As for the 50/50 chance… and what THEY might have been thinking… it is perfectly obvious that they KNEW the site they had chosen was way too small. They KNEW they had to ‘enlarge/improve’ it and tried to employ both cutting AND burning out around it. So I think they KNEW they weren’t looking at 50/50.

      Again… it all came down to time. If they had another 10 minutes… I am sure those 4 chainsaws could have turned that area into a good-sized parking lot… but any amount of TIME that gets added for ‘improving the site’ would just ALSO be added to the debate about why they weren’t trying to get OUT of there, instead.

      My only point when I responded below and quoted the ACTUAL online USDA Forestry Service Deployment training video was that even a photo that appears in the ‘official’ video looks pretty similar to that boulder field that was only 300 feet away from them… and it looks as if it was meeting the criteria spelled out in the ‘official’ ‘Selecting a Deployment Site’ section of the USDA video for a *possible* deployment site ( keyword = possible ).

      It was the ‘closest area where FUELS were SPARSE ( as compared to anywhere on the floor of the canyon ). As for the ‘super-heated’ gas argument… there simply wasn’t a good enough site investigation done to determine whether there was any spot above that visible scorch line on the boulder field where that *might* not have been as bad as people tend to think.

      As Tex ( Sonny ) Gilligan has said… that entire area was about the size of TWO football fields. If they could have gotten into the center of it… and buried their faces in the gaps between the rocks themselves… they *might* not have even needed their shelters draped over them for extra protection.

      More conjecture… I know… but one does have to wonder.

      It is too late now to REALLY go back and examine where ( if anywhere ) in those close boulder piles the conditions *might* have remained ‘survivable’. The only time that could have been done would have been with competent investigators and immediately after the incident.

      So the debate about whether they really made the ‘right choice’ will continue for YEARS to come. Maybe forever.

      • Bob Powers says

        WTKTT
        After thinking about what you said I wanted to re touch on something.
        The visible scorch line and gases or superheated air.
        There is a difference the scorch line is direct fire contact.
        the superheated air 600 to even 1500 deg. moves in front of the fire or flames in a canyon it is like a chimney in a fire place the flame dose not go up but the heat dose.
        A very hot fire with wind pushes that heat out in front of it covering the land scape. being on a rock pile with the heat hitting you one intake of breath and your lungs shrivel no more oxygen you die no fire ever touches you if your in a non fuel area. The shelter is to help you maintain oxygen within the shelter. Breathing air thru the crevices just wont get it in that situation. That is what I was getting at with the need for the proper use of the fire shelter. I am not trying to lecture you but explain wild land fire and what happens when you are caught in the middle of it. Dose that make sense to you?

        • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

          Yes. It does ( make sense ).

          At NO time have I ever been suggesting that just because they might have been able to make it somewhere where there was no ‘direct flame contact’ ( such as above the visible scorch lines ) that that would mean they were ‘safe’ or that that would automatically have been a ‘survivable’ area that afternoon.

          Yes… either *radiant* or *convective* heat or will kill you just as dead as direct flame contact… and if you can’t hold your breath long enough.. just the *superheated gases* will get you too. ( See the WFF who survived the burnover in Florida in the cab of his dozer. 3rd degree burns almost everywhere… but he survived because he WAS simply able to hold his breath long enough and not fry his lungs ).

          Unfortunately… the actual EVIDENCE that *might* have been able to prove what the *convective heat* and/or AIR TEMPERATURE(S) really were at various places other than the deployment site ( such as up in the boulder piles ) has been LOST.

          Example: There might have been lichens, molds and even insect evidence there in those Boulder Piles even just above the scorch lines to prove whether convective heat or superheated gases ever reached ‘non-survivable’ levels at those places… and for HOW LONG ( seconds? minutes? ) but that evidence would have to have been gathered as soon after the incident as possible… and certainly before the first ‘new rain’ following the incident.

          None of that was done. We’ll never know what that kind of evidence might have shown.

          For all we know… if that ash cloud also really did totally ‘collapse’ into that area like some kind of Pompeii effect as suggested by that one independent meteorologist… then even if they had made it to a place free from direct flame contact and fatal convective heat and gases… all the oxygen around them could have disappeared when the cloud collapsed and they might have suffocated just because of that event.

          Again… not enough EVIDENCE was collected to really KNOW whether any of these things were TRUE or not.

          It was a piss-poor investigation… and it’s too late now to go back and try and collect this kind of crucial physical evidence.

          • Bob Powers says

            When you look at the past investigation on fires this one just dose not meet what should be expected by the wild land fire community.
            Maybe because it was not a federal fire with the federal fire lab involvement. I had expected a full study of the fire shelter failures and why as well as accurate heat studies of the deployment site. The GPS units that were carried by the crew would also have been valuable for specific time and location. There is just a lot of open holes here that do no speak well for a thorough investigation to follow up on future safety for wild land FF. I ask the Fire Community why?

  41. Joy A Collura says

    Some day my path may cross with Sonny but he is no longer to my days 24/7 since the 11th when he headed North. This 19 dying and the fire has taken him down a path where he needs to separate himself because it has affected him deeply reminding him too much of the loss of his own son. I understand where he stands. I am back in Congress and finally accepted the major news channel’s invite in person to my hometown so here I am back near Yarnell. I had told the lady I was in Northern Nevada so any ?s would have to be via phone/email for interview but God has THIS plan you see…and here I am. Since I am here minus Sonny then that means I can now kick it into action of going deeper then I did before and that begins after my medical massage with Dee Sickles tonight- much needed- on just one day in the week I did a run/walk/hike of 49 miles and I am sore so I do plan to hike the legal areas and as well walk the neighborhood pen in hand and camera and go back to the ones I helped and see if any of them may not share publicly their pics afraid of folks who can gps it and such but it is a huge start if they let me take photo of their photo then cut out their home or private spot and share the “important” spots that need to be shared- enough on there is stuff out there and noone coming forward yet—I am taking the next step and putting one foot in front of another to see where it will lead me—maybe by the anniversary God’s plan will have revealed more from the axe cutting on that wood—
    I will bring my wood splitter and maul too—time to chop, chop, chop
    and bring out some more clarity.
    I wish Sonny the best wherever God leads him. I miss the dog and him greatly. A fine man. I had people on the way home come up to me and ask me if I was the lady that was on tv for the 19/YHF and that was the first time I am with my husband in normal vehicle and still be asked that away from the unlikely pair of me and Sonny always- I said “yes”—they said THANK YOU to us both but not to hurt my feelings but to Sonny more for making sure to educate the people that kestrels, temp, weather updates, machines of this or that never compare to the true experience that he had that day and took me away from the fire in the manner he did. She said I was blessed and lucky to have such a knowledgeable person and when she and her husband saw our accounts she had goose bumps knowing when I said in His time the truth will be revealed she said she felt that “hope”…I have no clue what I am going to appear like on tv because all my belongings are with Sonny and I mean makeup to clothes to important ids/documents. I think the shirt you see on my hike with Wayne and Holly Neill, Ted Putnam and MacLean- they honored me with a shirt and I may have Lois Porowski try and add patch on with her machine and wear that. I have to go buy a hair brush and stuff still—but barely can walk so wait for the massage first-
    As the week unfolds I will crack this out—no, you won’t hear me say back on the trails with Sonny right now—I am focused to here, my health and his healing of the 19 men and his son. Yet there may be a day we travel and pioneer and hike again— Happy Father’s Day to all Dads out there. good night.

    • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

      Thank you, Joy.
      Good luck to Sonny…

      and YES…

      To all Fathers who have lost sons or daughters…
      and all sons and daughters who have lost Fathers…

      …a very respectful Father’s Day to you all.

    • Marti Reed says

      You are one of my heros and yes to chop chop chop and one foot in front of the other on the path of both walking our prayers and seeking the truth and taking care of our bodies and healing ourselves and yes to the dads both living and beyond (including mine) and their children who need them and love them and miss them, and their partners/spouses/parents who do, too.

      Blessings.

      • Marti Reed says

        And blessings also to Sonny, who lost his son, as did my father when I lost my brother.

        May we all walk the path of Blessings and Gratitude.

  42. Marti Reed says

    I’m scrolling way down to the bottom of the page so I can repost this to the top of the page, because, given all the time and energy some of us have paid to analyzing/describing what’s going on in the Ranch House Restaurant parking lot after the deployment, I think it’s important:

    YAY!!!!

    I just found something in an Air2Air video that might be a possible match for that State Fire truck in the Story photos with the emt pallets in back.

    And, thus may be the truck Todd Abel was driving. (Because he had to come out somehow/sometime/somewhere.)

    In the _1628_EP video, at 0:06:09,13 (i.e. 3:54ish PM) realm, a truck passes the camera that looks like that one in the parking lot, sans all the stuff they’ve put into it in the parking lot.

    It’s the nearest match I’ve found in these videos, and it seems to be the “right” time. It’s about three minutes before we see Tony Sciacca pass in front of that camera.

    I haven’t found anything anywhere else that resembles it.

    • Marti Reed says

      And I’m gonna pull this comment up out of the weeds v
      below (where I describe Byron Kimball appearing in Tom Story’s photos, Swartz’s photos, and the Reason video) because I think it’s important, also:

      Marti Reed
      on June 13, 2014 at 8:27 pm said:
      Yikes.

      Reading Byron Kimball’s ADOSH Interview. Totally changing my picture. He was in Glen Illah when the fire began to come thru it. And then went to Ranch House Parking lot.

      (I now really think he’s who I’ve written above he is).

      But his vehicle isn’t in that mix. He says he had to keep moving his vehicle because it was “on the wrong side of the road.”

      Also he says, “And…watching the guys…talk…to Brendan three or four times where was the last time you saw him…where was, you know, trying to get reference as to how they could get set up to go in….”

      This is a REALLY interesting interview.

      Reply ↓

      Marti Reed
      on June 13, 2014 at 8:38 pm said:
      And he continues (for you WTKTT who said you thought that might be Brendan and others looking at a map):

      “And – where was that on the map and ah, versus, you know, did he know where they were planning on going…

      …I do not know if he was aware of what they planned to use as their access route….

      …down from – from where they were.

      Um, at the time I didn’t realize that’s who it was…

      …or what his job was.”

      • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

        I believe only a PROPER interview of the Blue Ridge Hotshot crew will reveal what Brendan really *KNEW* when he was being queried about WHERE they might have deployed.

        Brendan has had every opportunity to offer more information about what went on in that RHR parking lot… but he has declined to talk about any of that.

        I believe he DID know… and told Frisby and Brown.

        Remember… when Frisby and Brown left the Shrine area… they were still sure that even they had heard something about them ‘coming down’… that the route they were taking was that same road they walked in on and the same one Frisby and Brown had used to go up and meet with them.

        Blue Ridge also says they ‘stopped’ on the way out and met with ( redacted ) in the Shrine parking lot and ‘shared with him the INTEL we had.”

        That ( redacted ) person pretty much has to be Jason Clawson and that might explain WHY Clawson, Hulburd and Yowell are seen standing there in the Shrine parking lot and apparently WAITING for something. Based on the INTEL that Blue Ridge had ‘passed on’… Clawson might have thought that GM was SUPPOSED to ALSO come marching out from that Youth Camp area at any moment… and THAT is why we see them WAITING there ( for waaaaay too long ) in the Helmet Cam video.

        Not long after Blue Ridge ‘assembled’ in the Ranch House Restaurant parking lot… we see Frisby and Brown headed out in the UTV for the ‘ground rescue mission’… but they are now FIRST headed back through Glen Ilah and trying ( apparently ) trying to find a way back to the Boulder Springs Ranch.

        I still think that indicates that when they DID ask Brendan in the RHR parking lot if he knew where they might be… Brendan DID tell them it was most likely somewhere out there near the Boulder Springs Ranch.

        During all this… Clawson, Hulburd and Yowell remained up on Shrine Road with their vehicles and their UTVS. Why? Did THEY still believe that GM was supposed to come out THAT way… and they were still waiting for them there?

          • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

            Followup… if Frisby and Brown really did still think that GM had been ‘coming down’ on that same road they walked in on… then the ground rescue mission would have STARTED back up on Shrine road where they knew that had ‘dozer cleared’ roads and ‘black’ to work with just beyond the fireline.

            It did NOT.

            By the time they left the parking lot… their FIRST goal was to try and find a way back to the Boulder Springs Ranch through Glen Ilah.

            I believe that is because Brendan TOLD them that is where they should probably start looking. Brendan HAD heard all the intra-crew traffic and decision making. He KNEW where they ( Marsh/Steed/crew ) were actually going ( and WHY?? ).

            Frisby and Brown got ‘beaten back’ just on Lakewood / Manzanita and never found that other road that turned into the actual driveway out to the BSR…. but then they even went as far south as the Candy Cane Lane area in their UTVs trying to find a way ‘back there’ before giving up.

            I believe it was only then that some communication with Clawson took place.

            Clawson and Hulburd and Yowell had probably already unloaded their UTVs up there on Shrine road… but they had NO IDEA where any of those roads went past the parking lot of the St. Joseph Shrine.

            They needed Frisby and Brown to come up there to Shrine Road and SHOW THEM how to get back into that area where GM had been known to be working most of the day.

            So that’s what Frisby and Brown did. No other choice at that point. Try to ‘break through’ back up north by the Youth Camp and get back up to where they had met them earlier in the day… and then take the search from there. Clawson, Hulburd and Yowell were just ‘following’ Frisby and Brown because they were CLUELESS about all that and where ANY of those roads were back there.

            Only some ACTUAL ( professional ) interviews with a Blue Ridge crew that is free to talk without losing their jobs AND some ACTUAL ( professional ) interviews with the heretofore totally ignored Jason Clawson, Aaron Hulburd and KC ‘Bucky’ Yowell will clear all this up… as WELL as reveal what Brendan McDonough actually TOLD them in that RHR parking lot…

            …unless Brendan decides to talk about it some more in the meantime.

            • Marti Reed says

              I agree with what you are laying out here. I’ve ALWAYS thought the attempt to find them via the west side of Glen Ilah indicated they believed GM was in the Boulder Springs Ranch area. And I believed their belief had something to do with them having Brendan/intracrew frequency in their midst.

              As a matter of fact, when I was first looking at Ball’s photos, I thought HE was trying to find a way over to Boulder Springs Ranch because he believed that’s where GM was headed.

              AND

              It could be the case that they weren’t really sure (and were still thinking GM had headed down the road they had gone in on) until that gathering around the map in front of that red truck. I’m guessing when they were fleeing the Youth Camp (and Brian and Trew were busy trying to get engine crews out) no-one was paying that much attention to what Brendan was listening to.

              Until the deployment came over the radio.

              I always believed someone at the Ranch House Restaurant Realm HAD to have interrogated Brendan about what he had heard of Granite Mountain’s actual route. It was very frustrating that none of that was included in any investigations or anything.

              And until FINALLY NOW, via poring over those photos, and you seeing something that I can still barely see, and then FINALLY reading Byron Kimball’s ADOSH interview (who woulda thunk of THAT), that we now know they WERE trying to find out, via Brendan, where that crew had actually headed.

              And so, YES, the Prescott Three were up there on Shrine Road, expecting Granite Mountain to appear, via Brian’s INTEL, when BOOM the deployment came over the radio.

              And maybe they did have the intracrew frequency, but maybe it wasn’t working all that well?

              I was struck, when watching the Air2Air 1716 video, there’s almost nothing but static on the Air2Air frequency. Once those planes are in that smoke and ash that frequency is plugged, when it comes to the outside world listening in. It’s as if NOTHING is communicating out of that bowl except Air 2 Ground.

              PS I think I’ve spotted that red truck on Air2Air 1544 at +8:30, I.e. 3:24:30 PM.

              And, the truck I thought was Byron Kimball’s isn’t. It goes back west on Hays Road at 3:42 PM.

              And I still haven’t “found” Musser. He should be right there somewhere in 1544. Unless maybe he was driving that big red truck?

              • Marti Reed says

                Re the hunt for Todd Abel:

                In Swartz photo at 18:44, there’s a grey truck with a sign saying “Fire.” That truck passes the Air2Air 1716 at +25:19 or 5:10 PM. Seems a little bit late, but it’s the closest thing I can find, so far. That’s 15 minutes after Willis passes it.

              • Marti Reed says

                Also in that Swartz photo there is a black double-cab Dodge Ram in between what I think is Paul Musser’s truck and what may be Darrill Willis’s truck at 6:44 PM.

                That truck passes the videocamera at 4:34 PM

              • Marti Reed says

                But I still haven’t found anything definitive for Todd Abel. Darrell says in his ADOSH interview that when he got to the parking lot Todd Abel is already there. I’m seeing a variety of trucks between 4:40ish and Darrell’s truck at 4:55, but nothing definitive. There’s a two-minute break between the end of 1643 and the beginning of 1716 (which starts at 4:45), so it’s possible Todd Abel was that far ahead of Darrell, since the deployment is announced at 4:40 in that video. But I think I’m going to hang up my hat on this one.

              • Marti Reed says

                I never said, I guess why I think the big red truck is Paul Musser’s.

                It passes the air2air camera at 3:24:30, which is reasonable. It is in the Reason video, sitting over there on the left side. You can’t see it in that spot in the Tom Story wide-angle photos, but trucks got re-arranged between the Reason video and the Story photos (including the GM Sup Truck). And it’s in Swartz’s photo stamped 18:44.

                Musser doesn’t say in his interview when he left the Ranch House Restaurant. But, all things considered, I think it’s pretty safe to assume it wasn’t before 6:44.

                • Marti Reed says

                  And also that’s the truck the folks are gathered around the front of probably asking Brendan where he thought GM might be.

              • Marti Reed says

                I’m also starting to think it might be possible that the State Fire truck with the emt panels could be Byron Kimball’s truck.

                I think I”m wrapping this, unless someone has anything either really useful or countervening to add. I need to get back to my real life.

            • Marti Reed says

              And I REALLY think the Incident Management Team truck “belongs” to the incoming Type 1 Team. Two trucks with that insignia are headed west around 4:36 PM.

              I have NO CLUE, however, who from that team was at the Ranch House Restaurant Parking Lot after the deployment. ADOSH didn’t bother to interview any of them.

    • Marti Reed says

      BTW for a reference point:

      When Musser also passes that camera (via the Air2Air video 1628_EP) is at 0:40:06 from the start of the video (which was at 3:47:58 PM) , or about 4:30 PM. (I’m totally welcome to people fixing my math if I just screwed that up).

    • Marti Reed says

      And so what I am essentially saying, regarding that State Fire truck that we see with the emt pallets and the open door in Tom Story’s photos, is that that almost probably is the truck Todd Abel was driving.

    • Marti Reed says

      So, waking up and looking at the times, after finding two other “Vehicles of Interest” last night, I have the following times when they passed in front of the Air2Air video camera:

      Cougan Carothers: 3:51 PM
      State Forest/Todd Abel? 3:54 PM
      Paul Musser: 4:28 PM
      Darrell Willis: 4:55 PM

      There is another State Fire truck with the same markings as the one I’m connecting to Todd Abel, but with a rack and a bunch of stuff in the back bed, that is 30 seconds behind “Todd Abel Truck” coming out, so I thought that might be Byron Kimball. But it goes back “in” at 4:24 PM. And, unfortunately, there’s a critical 20 minute gap in coverage in these videos from 4:28 PM until 4:45 PM. So I don’t know if it came back “out.”

    • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

      Reply to Marti Reed post on June 13, 2014 at 9:26 pm

      Marti… I had a LONG post assembled in response to all the
      things you worked on yesterday… but I haven’t been able to
      get it to post since yesterday.

      So I’m going to try ‘breaking it up’ into a number of shorter
      ‘replies’ in order to find out which ‘section’ is causing WordPress
      to reject that section.

      I hope this isn’t too confusing… but here they come…

      >> Marti said…
      >> In the _1628_EP video, at 0:06:09 – 13 (i.e. 3:54ish PM) realm,
      >> a truck passes the camera that looks like that one in the
      >> parking lot, sans all the stuff they’ve put into it in the parking lot.

      Panebaker Air-To-Air channel video 20130630_1628_EP
      is exactly 40 minutes and 14 seconds long. It’s ACTUAL ( down
      to the second ) END time is 1628.12.

      The CREATION TIME in the EXIF data for this video is 1547.58.
      That also matches EXACTLY the ‘simple math’ of subtracting
      40 minutes and 14 seconds from 1628.12.

      So 1547.58 plus 6 minutes and 9 seconds is 1554.07 (3:54.07 PM).

      So you are spot on. We have already verified that that Contour 2 video camera had the EXACT ‘right time’ that day so that white double-door ‘STATE FIRE’ pickup with the red stripe, red/blue light bar on top, and silver metal toolbox mounted in the bed is passing that camera on Hays Ranch Road at exactly 3:54.07 PM.

      However… that means it CANNOT be Todd Abel’s vehicle heading down to the Ranch House Restaurant. It’s too early.

      Almost an HOUR too early.

      Todd Abel was still working some structure protection on the NORTH end of the fire all the way up through 1639 ( 4:39 PM ) when Steed’s MAYDAYS hit the radio. That is where Abel was when he jumped in during those MAYDAYS and told Burfiend to ‘wake up and pay attention’ and ANSWER those guys trying to contact him.

      Todd Abel immediately stopped what he was doing up on the NORTH end of the fire after the deployment transmissions and then headed directly down towards Yarnell… but that was in the 1645 ( 4:45 PM ) timframe. Maybe even a few minutes later than that.

      NOTE: There is no doubt, however, that that is the pickup seen later in the Tom Story photos. A super-enhancement from one of the video frames even shows that the LID of the silver-metal toolbox as not closed ‘all the way’ just the way we see it later in the Tom Story photo(s). The lid is not fully ‘flatly’ closed and is about an inch or two higher on the latch end than it is on the hinge end.

      BTW: There is yet ANOTHER white pickup with red stripe and almost identical configuration just behind this one and it passes the video camera about 2 minutes later… HOWEVER… it is DIFFERENT from all the others because it has that black steel mesh thing mounted at the top of the bed behind the pickup’s rear mirror. I don’t see any white pickup with that kind of black-metal screen in the truck bed anywhere in the Tom Story photos. Only other place I’ve seen THIS pickup with the black metal screen is in some of the AZ Forestry photos in the SAIT release showing all those vehicles that were assembled in that field across from the ICP ( until they moved them all to behind the ICP as the fire closed in on the School ). It was parked in that field right next to the Crew Carriers that say ‘Wildland Fire’ on them and being used to transport the DOC Lewis Crew around that day.

      • Marti Reed says

        WTK, what is your timestamp for the Reason video? I have yet to download/install Exif tools and my software isn’t reading a timestamp for that.

        • Marti Reed says

          Oh, doh. The reason I don’t have a stamp for it is because I screen-recorded it. So anyway, my question still stands….

          • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

            Marti… I ‘screen recorded’ it as well… so since day one I have been wondering what the EXACT timestamp is for that myself.

            We keep getting closer and closer to an EXACT time… but we are not there yet.

            It was obviously BEFORE the Blue Ridge Hotshots were told to get away from the press and re-assemble there at the BACK of the parking lot.

            It was also obviously AFTER that photo of Frisby and Brown taken by McCord right after they arrived at the RHR with Frisby and Brown looking very concerned… because ( Marty Cole’s? ) WHITE TACOMA isn’t there yet.

            I believe the Russ Reason video was shot just moments after that WHITE TACOMA pulled into the parking lot.

        • Marti Reed says

          I just had a head turnaround looking at that video. I just realized that the blue truck we see in Tim Story’s photos must be Rance’s and the red truck with the white camper we see in Joy’s and Papich’s photos must be Cougan’s because Cougan works for Central Yavapai Fire Dept and Rance doesn’t. I’ve been mis-identifying those trucks (and maybe those guys) all along. And the cognitive dissonance just caught up with me.

          The two and their trucks are seen in the USB YARNELL HILL 020 video in the Forest Service photos and Videos folder.
          So I’m still not sure we are ID-ing these two correctly.

          And what started this was looking at the Reason video. The red Central Yavapai truck w/the white camper is parked in front of the State Fire truck and in front of the Ranch House Restaurant. I don’t see the blue truck anywhere in that video.

          Also that big red truck on the north side of the parking lot with flashing lights is the same one as the one the possible “mapping with Brendan” group is gathered in front of. It has disappeared by the time Story takes his series of wide-angle shots. And it’s also seen in two of Swartz’s 6:38-ish PM photos. It has a white-ish cowboy hat sitting on the dashboard.

    • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

      **
      ** THE PICKUP SEEN AT +40:06 IN AIR-TO-AIR VIDEO

      Also spot-on regarding the OTHER singe-door access-cab style white pickup with the big square ‘Incident Management Team’ logo under the access cab window. That is ALSO the other ‘white pickup’ that we are then GOING to see in the Tom Story photos.

      It is definitely passing the camera on Hays Ranch Road as you said, going EAST at +40:06 into the video which means it is headed for Yarnell at exactly 1628.04 ( 4:28.04 PM ) ( 1628.12 end time minus 8 seconds ).

      There is also just a brief moment when the driver of that second white pickup sticks his head sort of out the window. It’s only for a few frames, but the driver of THAT truck definitely has a bright YELLOW helmet on.

      So as far as that being Paul Musser’s vehicle… I think we have the OPPOSITE issue as the other vehicle possibly being Todd Abel’s. This one is passing the camera TOO LATE to be Paul Musser and again… almost a full too late just as the other one is almost a full hour too SOON to be Todd Abel.

      We KNOW that Paul Musser was done with structure protection work on Sickles Road and had already headed down to Yarnell in the 1530 timeframe. Musser makes his 1542 ( 3:42 PM ) ‘availability’ radio call out to DIVSA Eric Marsh just before he met with Cordes down near Shrine Road in Yarnell ( or perhaps even right then when he was first standing there with Cordes ). When Musser made it to the Yarnell area circa 1542… there is no evidence he ever went BACK to the north again up to the time of deployment ( and beyond ).

      It is ALL GOOD, though, that you have spotted these 2 white ‘STATE FIRE’ pickups in this Panebaker video.

      These ARE the same pickups that are seen later in the Tom Story photos and they belonged to SOMEONE. We are just that much closer to finding out WHO.

      • Marti Reed says

        So I have looked at every vehicle traveling east on Hays during the first 15 minutes of 1544_EP which starts at 3:27 PM.

        Unless he’s driving stealth in a black Volkswagon or a UTV or one of two school buses or a grey pickup truck that you see various clones of in some places, or the almost not-labeled Arizona State Forestry (not Arizona Fire) truck that I think might be Byron’s (even tho I have problems even with that), or a red fire truck, or a horse-trailer or some just basic car, I can’t see anything that looks like it could be Paul Musser.

        • Marti Reed says

          And I just finished watching 1643_EP (which starts at 4:31 PM) and 1716_EP (which starts at 4:45 PM) and, other than the white Tacoma, I haven’t seen anything we see in the parking lot (other than Darell Willis’s truck) or anything I would connect even remotely to Todd Abel.

          Something is just not connecting here regarding either Paul Musser’s or Todd Abel’s heading out of the northern area down to Yarnell visual narrative scenario.

          • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

            Copy that. Sickles road is even WEST of where the Panebaker cameras were set up on Hays Ranch Road… so that eliminates the possibility that Musser could have been down on Sickles Ranch road earlier and then his move down to Yarnell would have been ‘missed’ by the cameras.

            Unless he hit one of the 2-3 minute ‘battery swapout’ moments for the Air-To-Air video captures… even if Musser was on Sickles road he HAD to still pass by the Panebaker setup whenever he headed to Yarnell.

            There was only ONE way out of that area and down to Yarnell from the ICP, Model Creek Road, or Sickles Road area… and that was EAST on Hays Ranch Road and past that Panebaker setup.

            Even Marty Cole went to the ICP… as late as he was that day. He heard the deployment transmissions from up on the NORTH end and only then ‘went directly down to the Ranch House Restaurant’.

            From Marty Cole’s SAIT interview…
            ____________________________________
            1600 I arrived at ICP at the school and check in. They were dropping helos at the back door of the school. There was no one to clone the radios. There was a large volume of fire coming off of the hill. Between ICP and Yarnell a little bit of raindrops were hitting the windshield. I came across a State of Arizona guy and thought that he might be able to clone my radio. He had ghostly look on his face. I could hear screaming in the radio and the pilot telling him to calm down. Shortly, I heard Eric say they were going to deploy and that he would call when they were in their shelters. I know Eric, he is very excitable but he was calm. About 16:40 Granite 7 called. I didn’t know who it was. Heard TA try to get intel. I left there and went to the restaurant.
            ____________________________________

            So I am back to thinking that the WHITE TACOMA is Marty’s Coles. His interview also says that he was waiting AT HOME for his official ‘order’ to show up ( email? ) before he ever left Prescott… so if he left directly from his home and came to Yarnell that would explain him using his ‘personal vehicle’ that day ( the WHITE TACOMA? ).

            There is also that Blue Ridge Hotshot McCord still photo that he took just moments after they all pulled into the RHR parking lot, and had JUST finished hearing the MAYDAY calls. It’s the one with Frisby and Brown looking very concerned and Brown with his ear glued to the radio.

            That WHITE TACOMA is NOT THERE yet.

            So that might also match Marty Cole saying he was still up NORTH ( at ICP? ) when he heard the MAYDAYS and only then headed directly down to the RHR.

            Again… that means that unless it happened during one of the 2-3 minute battery swapouts on the Panebaker A2A cameras… we SHOULD be seeing that WHITE TACOMA headed EAST on Hays Ranch Road just shortly after 1640 ( 4:40 PM ).

            More later.

            • Marti Reed says

              LOL!!!

              I just posted how it could be possible that white Fire Tacoma could be Marty Coles and then I found this!

              So we’re making great progress, and/but our two biggest subjects, Paul Musser and Todd Abel, are still missing in action (along with their vehicles) as far as showing up on their way to Yarnell.

              • Marti Reed says

                Yikes. The smell of smoke is coming into my house.

                I hope that doesn’t mean the Bosque is on fire.

      • Marti Reed says

        OK starting on 1643_EP, and guess what the FIRST vehicle to pass by is:

        The mysterious and elusive white Toyota Tacoma “van” sitting in the middle of all the action in the parking lot!!

        It’s at +1:23;20, which means 4:31:20 PM. Tantalizingly close, but still too early to be Todd Abel?

          • Marti Reed says

            Totally typo-ing here. Sorry. 1543_EP starts at 4:30. My brain is circling a mile a minute wondering if it’s still possible this could be Todd Abel.

        • Marti Reed says

          Just saw an Incident Management Team truck going IN pulling a big trailer. At + 5:45.

          So I’m wondering, is it possible that Incident Management Team truck we’re seeing in Story’s photos is connected to someone from the Type 1 team that’s preparing to take over the fire?

        • Marti Reed says

          So now I’m reading Marty Cole’s SAIT interview notes. (I can’t find him interviewed by ADOSH).

          He arrived at ICP at 4:00 PM. Next thing he says is “Between ICP and Yarnell a little bit of raindrops were hitting the windshield.”

          Then “I could hear screaming in the radio.”

          Then “I left there and went to the restaurant. I saw Blue Ridge and found out Granite Mountain had deployed. Blue Ridge had Brendan. I put his gear in my truck and said I would take care of him.”

          And it goes on. Point being, given the timing, and the interview (however sketchy it is), that white Toyota Tacoma in the middle of the action, that says “Fire,” could possibly be Marty Cole’s.

          • Marti Reed says

            Regarding Marty Coles context/SA.

            “I retired two years ago. I have 24 years in wild land fire. Eric Marsh and I started the Granite Mountain Hotshots.”

          • Marti Reed says

            This interview is pretty sketchy and needs fleshing out. I can’t believe ADOSH didn’t interview him, seeings to how he was the other Safety Officer who showed up via those back channels.

            But the importance, for us, being, his timing, via his interview, could connect him to that white,Toyota, and his relationship to what was going on regarding Brendan,

            • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

              Marti… a lot of posting regarding the WHITE TACOMA were ‘crossing the wires’ up above… but the bottom line is YES… I believe that WHITE TACOMA must belong to Marty Cole.

              He says in his interview that as SOON as he heard the MAYDAY calls he headed down to Yarnell from the ICP… but that’s creates a bit of weird timing with regards to when we actually see that WHITE TACOMA passing the Panebaker videos.

              According to that time when it is seen passing the camera… the MAYDAY calls hadn’t actually happened yet.

              I still think that is Marty Cole.
              Perhaps his recollection is fuzzy and he really was on his way to Yarnell ( as seen in the video ) just BEFORE the MAYDAY calls went out.

              That ‘open door’ on that WHITE TACOMA in the big middle of everything has always been curious to me. It was even seen ‘already open’ in the Russ Reason interview… which must have been moments after it arrived.

              It looks like the engine is still running and the lights are on… but someone still got out of the thing ( and is SOMEWHERE there in those groups of FFs ) that they forgot to even close the door on vehicle that still had its engine running.

              That means someone was in a HURRY the minute they hit that parking lot.

              Marty Cole did NOT find out that Brendan was with Blue Ridge until he actually arrived at the RHR parking lot… but the evidence indicates that once he did… then he was sticking with Brendan and ‘taking care of him’.

              Cole says he even ‘put Brendan’s gear in my vehicle’.

              Cole later says he ‘off-loaded’ Brendan to take care of other things… but he has never said WHERE he off-loaded him.

              We know that Brendan ended up at the ICP up north at some point. One of those Prescott FFs in that “How we removed the bodies” video said he was just sitting at the ICP and suddenly looked up… and there was Brendan standing over him.

              So yea… looking VERY much like that WHITE TACOMA belongs to Marty Cole.

              Swings of the axe…

        • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

          Reply to Marti Reed post on
          June 15, 2014 at 6:33 pm said:

          >> Marti said…
          >> Do we for sure know exactly when
          >> Musser made that call?

          ** SHORT STORY

          Yes. 1542.12 ( 3:42.12 PM )

          ** LONG STORY

          Musser’s callout to DIVSA Marsh comes at +0:06 seconds into this Panebaker video…

          20130630_154232_fire_behavior_EP

          Here is the EXIF metadata for that video…

          NOTE: We already KNOW we need to subtract 2 hours from any internal timestamp to get the correct time for this camera…

          File Name: 20130630_154232_fire_behavior_EP
          Creation Date: 2013:06:30 17:42:06
          Duration: 0:00:24.79
          Camera: NIKON COOLPIX P520
          GPS Time Stamp: 22:42:01.29 UTC
          GPS Time Stamp 2: ( AZ 15:42:01.29 PM )
          GPS Date Stamp: 2013:06:30
          GPS Position: 34 deg 16′ 19.82″, 112 deg 43′ 51.83″

          We also know that based on the ‘simple math’ of ‘Creation Time’ versus ‘Duration’… only 2 seconds were ADDED to that math result to come up with the filename END TIME timestamp of 154232…

          Seconds added, Creation Time, Duration, End Time, Subtraction, Filename
          +02, 17:42:06, 0:00:24.79, 1742.30, -2, 20130630_154232_fire_behavior_EP

          From the video…
          __________________________________________
          +0:06 ( 1542.12 – 3:42.12 PM )
          (Paul Musser): Division Alpha, Operations Musser.
          __________________________________________

          In his ADOSH interview… Musser said he was ‘almost certain’ that was the ONLY time he talked with Eric Marsh that day on the radio, so this pretty much MUST have been his ‘availability check’ radio call. The call was NOT answered right away by Marsh ( nor was it answered before the 24 second Panebaker video actually ENDS ) because we also know that at that exact moment he was ‘finishing’ some other radio conversations with Blue Ridge about moving the vehicles. Brendan had JUST been picked up by Frisby at that point.

          The moment just BEFORE Musser makes his radio call… we are hearing Eric Marsh finish his ‘report on the fire’ to someone where he has just informed whoever he was talking to that the fire had blown through the retardant line and was headed for Yarnell, which Eric Panebaker then jokes about with his quote “Where do we record THAT in the notes?”.

          • Marti Reed says

            Thanks!

            And I’ve been circling that panebaker callout and thinking Eric would most likely have been reporting that to Todd Abel.

            • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

              Most likely, yes.

              We KNOW Marsh wasn’t making that ‘fire report’ to Musser since Musser is the one who was just waiting for Marsh to finish talking and then Musser came on with his attempt to talk to Marsh.

              Also… even though we now have evidence that Jason Clawson was fully engaged at this point and considered by other ‘later arriving’ Bea Day Type 2 team members to be THEIR ‘Operations Section Chief’… I think the ‘Bea Day’ gang was also, at that point, the ‘CELLPHONE gang’.

              I think Jason Clawson was staying off the other team’s TAC frequencies and basically ‘doing his own thing’ via cellphone contact with his own DIVS ( Hulburd, Yowell, Phibin, etc. ).

              That’s why we don’t really ever HEAR Jason Clawson in any of these radio captures… yet we have more than a half-dozen documented cases of people saying they were ‘tieing in with Jason’ or otherwise ‘communicating’ with him as we lead up to the deployment timeframe.

      • Marti Reed says

        I’m really, really increasingly mystified about this “Incident Command Team” truck.

        That’s because I saw (via the Air2Air videos) several trucks approaching the Incident Command Center that had that same logo and, given the timing, seem to be connected to the Incident Command Type 1 team that is setting itself up to take over the fire.

        So I was wondering rtoday, is there possibly someone connected to that Type 1 Incident Command Team, organizing itself to take over the fire by Monday night, that might have been both video-recorded by Panebaker on the way down into Yarnell and then photographed by Tom Story in that whole sequence of images we are looking at.

        So I went to look at the Type 1 Incident Command Team Roster that is setting itself up to take over that fire by Monday evening, and I can’t find anybody that is connected to being close to this scenario at this time.

        Sorry. Reality is continuing it allude us.

    • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

      **
      ** BYRON KIMBALL’S PHOTOS

      In the online folder with Bryan Kimball’s photos… there is this
      one particular photo he took circa 5:05 PM…

      Filename: Column as Fire Moves into Yarnell 06_30 ( JPEG )

      This photo was taken by Byron Kimball at 5:05.26 PM and ( if his timestamp can be trusted ) he was still NOT at the Ranch House Restaurant just 2 minutes before Tom Story would start shooting his photos there.

      EXIF METADATA…

      Camera: Canon PowerShot SD600
      Camera 2: Also known as: Canon IXY Digital 70 (Japan);
      Camera 3: and Canon Digital IXUS 60 (Europe)
      Lens: 5.8 – 17.4 mm
      Shot at 5.8 mm (shot wide open)
      Exposure: Auto exposure, 1/50 sec, f/2.8, ISO 233
      Flash: Auto, Did not fire, Red-eye reduction
      Focus: Single, Auto AF point selection, with a depth of field of from 65.53 m to infinity.
      Date: June 30, 2013 – 5:05:26 PM
      File: 2,112 X 2,816 JPEG (5.9 megapixels)
      Color Encoding: Color space tagged as sRGB, without an embedded color profile.

      LOCATION…

      There is no GPS data embedded in the photo… but I can
      you exactly where he was standing when he took the picture.

      It was on the NORTH end of Yarnell itself, 1,372 feet south of the
      U-Store-It facility but still 2,350 feet north of where Shrine road
      meets Highway 89.

      Approximate address where he took photo would be
      127 White Spar Highway ( Highway 89 ), Yarnell, AZ.

      He is standing on the EAST side of the road so it looks like as
      he was heading SOUTH on Highway 89, he took a LEFT across
      the oncoming traffic and pulled his vehicle into a dirt road and
      parked his vehicle exactly here…

      34.227646, -112.741970

      He then appears to have gotten out of the vehicle and walked about 20 feet south on the shoulder of highway 89 and took the photo from exactly here…

      34.227568, -112.742083

      The center of that ‘blue’ house with the ‘brown’ roof seen on the right side of this photo is here…

      34.227568, -112.742600

      He was NOT DRIVING his vehicle at this point in time.

      It looks like he was definitely STOPPED at this location and was OUT of his vehicle and standing on the EAST shoulder of Highway 89, facing south.

      So Byron may have been HEADED to the Ranch House Restaurant… but at 5:05.26 PM he was still ‘stationary’ and not moving in that direction as yet. This makes it even less likely he could have then been ‘in place’ in the Ranch House Restaurant parking lot just 180 seconds later ( 3 minutes ) when Tom Story began shooting his photos there.

      • Marti Reed says

        That timestamp is not accurate.

        In his interview Byron says that Canon was seventeen minutes ahead, and he didn’t realize that at the time (is this a common theme yet?)

        He talks about how, he realized later, this was taken at the time of the deployment, when the fire was laying over and headed right towards the Ranch House Restaurant. He hadn’t heard about the deployment yet. As soon as he did, right after he took this photo, he drove to the Restaurant.

        And THANK you for your responses!!! I didn’t have those times at hand, so I was hoping you would connect this to those!

        Back to work! And I’ve now finally downloaded the 1643_EP video, so I can check it out.

        • Marti Reed says

          Marti’s Repeated-ad-Nauseum Moral of the Visual Narrative:

          Never ever ever ever ever EVER assume the timestamp on a camera is accurate. Unless they’re connecting somehow to a wireless network, they almost always are NOT ACCURATE.

          • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

            Copy that. I knew it couldn’t have been too far off, though, since the picture he was actually taking ( that enourmous ash cloud ) puts the photo into the ‘deployment’ timeframe.

            You are absolutely right, though. This really is more of a picture of the ash cloud COMING into Yarnell ( circa 1640 – 1650 ) than it is of the ‘after 5 PM’ timeframe.

            I REALLY wish Byron Kimball had also turned to the NORTH at that moment and taken one more picture of the sky in THAT direction… and I am sure we would be seeing the vehicle he was driving about 18-20 feet in front of him and parked in that driveway there.

            • Marti Reed says

              I was just about to ask “How do you know that?” when I figured that out. Oh Great Google Map ninja. I confess I still haven’t had the stomach to visit my Google Earth map since the new images came out.

              Totally agree.

              I really wish he had photographed his truck. And even a selfie would come in handy.

              • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

                Oh God… yes. Too bad all these guys weren’t ten year younger… or that Windows Mobile hadn’t caught on when it was fully available 10 years before all this iPhone and Google Android crap.

                I wish ALL of these guys had the ‘selfie’ instincts that the tweens/teens do now.

                That would have been REALLY helpful.

              • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

                BTW… it’s not martial arts… but there are some ‘tricks’.

                For a LOT of these photos… just use Google ‘Street View’… but LOOK UP.

                Power poles and power lines.

                They are always a little bit different and even if you don’t recognize the landscape… you can easily spot the subtle details in power poles and power lines.

                Example: That’s how I quickly found where Byron took that picture. There’s a 4-line drop gang of wires between poles on the left side of his photo.

                That means he had to be SOUTH of where those 4 line drops are actually entering the town of Yarnell… which happens to be just about 1/4 mile north of where he took the photo.

                Drive down the road just a bit with Google maps Street View… and watch for that 4-line gang drop in Bryon’s photo and the right matching poles… and Voila!… “you are there”.

    • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

      **
      ** DEFINITELY DAN PHILBIN IN THE RED HELMET

      >> Marti said…
      >> I decided the other night I think the tall guy with
      >> the red helmet and shoulder holster may be Dan
      >> Philbin. He seems super tall, relatively speaking.

      More GOOD news… we can scratch one more truck and its owner off the list. Definitely confirmed that that is Dan Philbin in the Red Helmet with the BLM logo and that is definitely HIS yellow stripe BLM truck parked across Highway 89 in the Tom Story photos.

      Tom Story photo 201303_Yarnell_Hill_1682 is the only one that clearly shows the vehicle ID number on the front fender of this white double-door BLM pickup parked on the other side of Highway 89.

      The number on the front driver-side fender is U-2311.

      NOTE: Only photos 1682 and 1682 clealy show the U-2311 Unit Designator on the front fender of that BLM truck. The full number is BLOCKED by Willis’ pickup in photos 1684 through 1687 and only the last two digits ( ’11’ ) are visible in those photos. In photos 1688 and 1689, the U-2311 number is blocked completely by Willis’ pickup. In photos 1690 and 1691 we can now see right through the open windows of Willis’ pickup over to the front fender of the BLM truck but only the last 3 digits ( ‘311’ ) of the U-2311 number are visible.

      Here is an external FLICKR photo of AZ-PHD U-2311 itself…

      https://www.flickr.com/photos/garciarf/7171650435/

      Photo title: BLM Fire Dodge Power Wagon
      Information posted about this photo…
      AZ-PHD U-2311
      Bureau of Land Management FireArizona Wildfire & Incident Management Academy
      Prescott, AZ, March 2012
      Felipe Garcia
      Flickr Username: FelipeGR90 – FLICKR Member since 2006
      Taken on March 12, 2012
      Canon EOS 7D
      262 Views

      And the LARGE firefighter with the red-helmet and the same ‘blue triangle’ BLM logo in photo 1682 who, at that moment, is staring directly at Tom Story when he took this photo is definitely Dan Philbin. Matches that photograph I found of him in that Bureau of Indian Affairs newlsetter when he was Superintendent of the Fort Apache Hotshots.

      Dan Philbin has already exited his BLM pickup parked across the street and is now standing in the Ranch House Restuarant parking lot in-between that single-door access-cab style white pickup with the red-stripe and the square AZ STATE logo under the access cab window… and that long double-door all-white pickup with the door open that just says FIRE on the closed passenger door.

      Given that there are only 33 seconds in-between Tom Story photos 1681 and 1682… I would say that Dan Philbin had to ‘pull up’ and park there on the WEST side of Highway 89 just seconds after Tom Story shot his photo 1681, in order for Dan Philbin to exit his vehicle, cross Highway 89, and then be seen standing there where he is in the parking lot just 33 seconds later when Tom Story would shoot his next 1682 photo.

      Tom Story photo 1681 was taken at 1707.45 ( 5:07.45 PM )
      Tom Story photo 1682 was taken at 1708.18 ( 5:08.18 PM )

      Given that… I would put Dan Philbin’s ‘arrival time’ there on the WEST side of Highway 89 about 10 seconds after photo 1681 was taken, which would be 1707.55 ( 5:07.55 PM ). That leaves him 23 seconds to throw it in PARK, exit his vehicle, cross Highway 89, and then be seen where he is standing in photo 1682. He must have been moving pretty quickly once he got out of his vehicle. He probably RAN across Highway 89.

      ** OTHER DAN PHILBIN INFO

      In the PUBIC part of the WildCAD computer system…
      Dan Philbin has the following ID and information…

      http://www.wildcad.net/WCAZ-PHCresources.htm

      ID: DC 2101
      Resource: Dan Philbin, AFMO

      ** DAN PHILBIN ‘BACKFILL’ ORDER

      Oddly enough… Dan Philbin DOES also have an entry in the ‘J – Resource Orders’ documents… but it is described by whoever entered it as just a ‘backfill’… and it wasn’t entered into THIS system until July 3, 2013, 3 days AFTER he was actually ‘ordered up’ for Yarnell.

      The ‘Ordered From’ column also does NOT have anything
      but what appears to be a ‘phone number’. ( No valid Dispatch
      Unit ID ).

      However.. the 623-445-0288 phone number being listed instead
      appears to be the Main FAX number for the ‘Arizona Interagency
      Dispatch Center’… according to this public website…
      http://www.aidc.az.gov/contact.asp
      Arizona Interagency Dispatch Center
      2901 W. Pinnacle Peak Road
      Phoenix, Arizona 85027
      Business Line: 623-445-0274
      Main Fax Line: 623-445-0288
      Logistics Fax Line: 623-445-0289
      To Report a Fire: 1-800-309-7081 / 623-582-0911

      Huh? Why list a FAX number as the ‘origin’ for the order?

      Unlike the other orders that also say ‘backfill’ for Hulburd and Yowell… MOST of the ‘order form’ fields ARE filled out for Dan Philbin including the ‘Released Date’ and ‘Released To’ fields.

      It also has the same ‘Special Needs’ note as Hulburd and Yowell’s entries that says ‘Dan helped secure the accident scene’… but this is not really the case. Only Clawson, Hulburd and Yowell were out at the ‘accident scene’… unless Philbin is actually one of the three ‘Incident within an Incident’ commanders that DPS Ranger 58 testimony says were also ‘allowed to enter the accident scene’ that afternoon.

      Page 171 of ‘J – Resource Orders’ document…

      Request number: O-159 ( There is NO corresponding order for Dan Philbin in other ROSS resource report. Only this one. )
      Ordered Date/Time: 07/03/13 – 1029 PNT
      From: 623-445-0288
      To: AZ-ADC
      Qty: 1
      Resource Requested: DIVISION / GROUP SUPERVISOR (DIVS) ( Philbin, Dan ( AZ-PDC ) )
      Needed Date/Time: 07/01/13 – 1300 PNT
      Deliver To: YARNELL HILL
      From Unit: AZ-PHC
      To Unit: AZ-ADC
      Assigned Date/Time: 07/03/13 – 1106 PNT
      Resource Assigned Unit ID: AZ-PHD
      Resource Assigned: Philbin, Dan ( AZ-PHC )
      M/D Ind: D
      Estimated Time of Departure: 07/03/13 – 1400 PNT
      Estimated Time of Arrival: 07/03/13 – 1700 PNT
      Released Date: 07/03/13 – 1332 PNT
      Released To: PHOENIX SKY HARBOR INTL ( PHX )
      Travel Mode: AOV
      Financial Code: AZ-A1S-130688
      Special Needs: This is a backfill. Dan helped secure the accident scene
      Reporting Instructions: ICP MIDDLE CREEK SCHOOL IN PEEPLES VALLEY 18912 HAYS RANCH ROAD, PEEPLES VALLEY, AZ.

      There is then this ‘followup’ NOTE regardig Phiblin’s ‘backfill’ order which appears on page 205…

      Req. No.: O-159
      Documentation: Request O-159 – DIVISION/GROUP SUPERVISOR
      (DIVS) – [AZ-A1S-130688] YARNELL HILL has been filled with
      Philbin, Dan (AZ-PHC) by Georgia Burns (at ) AZ-PHC ROSS
      Entered by: Georgia Burns (AZ-PHC) – 07/03/2013 1106 PNT

      However… there is NO entry for Philbin in the other ‘ROSS’ document at the bottom of this ‘J Resource Order’ document, as there also is for Willis’ order.

      SPECIAL NOTE: Even though there are these mysterious ‘backfill’ orders for PNF people Aaron Hulburd, KC ‘Bucky’ Yowell, and BLM buy Dan Philbin… there is NO SUCH BACKFILL order for Jason Clawson… who Dan Philbin says was his ‘Operations Section Chief’ at Yarnell that afternoon.

      Jason Clawson played a CRUCIAL management role in Yarnell from the time he arrived circa 2:30 PM until the time he himself was the one that confirmed there were 19 dead at the deployment site… and Dan Philbin says 2 or 3 times in his interview that Jason Clawson was HIS ‘Operations Section Chief’ on the fire that afternoon…

      …but there is no existing resource order in the publicly released documents for Jason Clawson ( Now possibly the THIRD fully active OPS on the fire that afternoon )… and Jason Clawson was NEVER interviewed by either the SAIT or by ADOSH.

      With regards to the resource ordering itself… it’s like someone is trying to pretend he was never really there.

      It is actually ALSO looking very much like the entire ‘Bea Day’ team that was being ordered up ‘off the radar’ by IC Roy Hall that morning didn’t care that they were ‘obsolete’ by the time they all started showing up in Yarnell. As unbelievable as it may seem… it looks like the ‘Bea Day’ Type 2 team just jumped into the fire ( without some of them even bothering to check in at the ICP at the School ) and started ‘running parts of the fire’ as if they WERE in charge… and not even checking with the existing command team.

      They had their own fully functioning ‘Field OPS’ ( Jason Clawson ) and their own functioning DIVS ( Hulburd, Yowell, Philbin, Others? ) and they were going where THEY wanted do and doing what THEY thought was ‘needed’.

      Since he seemed to be his own self-appointed ‘Field OPS’ that day … it is even possible that Jason Clawson might have made his own independent ‘availability check’ with DIVSA Eric Marsh ( just like Paul Musser did ) and it might even be Jason Clawson himself who issued his own request/directive for Granite Mountain to ‘get to town ASAP’… and it might even be Jason Clawson we hear in the YARNELL-GAMBLE video and (apparently) urging Marsh to get GM to town ‘as fast as possible’ circa 1627.

      So it really does *look* like Bea Day’s ‘off the radar’ Type 2 team people were ‘freelancing’ in Yarnell that day… and that is IMPORTANT… since NONE of these people ( including Bea Day herself ) have ever been interviewed by ANYONE.

      • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

        Mr. Dougherty…

        The entire comment above with date/time…

        WantsToKnowTheTruth on June 14, 2014 at 2:38 pm said:
        Your comment is awaiting moderation.

        …and title…

        ** DEFINITELY DAN PHILBIN IN THE RED HELMET

        …can be DELETED. It got stuck in ‘moderation’ since I broke the ‘only one link per post’ WordPress rule and the entire comment above has already been reposted below with only ONE active hyperlink in it.

    • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

      **
      ** DEFINITELY DAN PHILBIN IN THE RED HELMET

      NOTE: This is a repost since the first attempt fell into ‘moderation
      land’ because it had more than one link in it. This is an attempt
      to repost with only ONE active link in the same comment.

      >> Marti said…
      >> I decided the other night I think the tall guy with
      >> the red helmet and shoulder holster may be Dan
      >> Philbin. He seems super tall, relatively speaking.

      More GOOD news… we can scratch one more truck and its owner off the list. Definitely confirmed that that is Dan Philbin in the Red Helmet with the BLM logo and that is definitely HIS yellow stripe BLM truck parked across Highway 89 in the Tom Story photos.

      Tom Story photo 201303_Yarnell_Hill_1682 is the only one that clearly shows the vehicle ID number on the front fender of this white double-door BLM pickup parked on the other side of Highway 89.

      The number on the front driver-side fender is U-2311.

      NOTE: Only photos 1682 and 1682 clealy show the U-2311 Unit Designator on the front fender of that BLM truck. The full number is BLOCKED by Willis’ pickup in photos 1684 through 1687 and only the last two digits ( ’11’ ) are visible in those photos. In photos 1688 and 1689, the U-2311 number is blocked completely by Willis’ pickup. In photos 1690 and 1691 we can now see right through the open windows of Willis’ pickup over to the front fender of the BLM truck but only the last 3 digits ( ‘311’ ) of the U-2311 number are visible.

      Here is an external FLICKR photo of AZ-PHD U-2311 itself…

      https://www.flickr.com/photos/garciarf/7171650435/

      Phot