Comments

  1. Bob Powers says

    The Dailey Courier —-Judge Granted a new Stay till July 6th on the Law suits To allow for more Mediation at the requests of the Lawyers for both sides. Just picked it up on Prescott Dailey Courier site.

      • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

        Personally… I think this is absurd and I don’t know why the Judge keeps going along with all this.

        You just have to wonder what the real PROBLEM is here.

        Is this really ALL about the elusive Brendan McDonough… and WHEN these lawyers are finally going to pick up the phone and talk to each other and get a deposition done…

        …or is it much MORE than that.

        I understand that when ‘negotiations’ are taking place… a lot of back and forth has to happen… but if Arizona Forestry really is willing to ‘settle’ theses lawsuits rather than risk going to court ( as they are obviously doing )… then there’s no excuse for the required ‘back and forth’ to arrive at agreements to be taking this long.

        They have had plenty of time to discover if they are going to be at an ‘impasse’ on any of the issues on the table… and neither side is willing to compromise.

        And all it takes is just one known ‘impasse’ that will prevent a successful settlement and the report back to the Judge should be…

        “We are unable to reach a settlement. Proceed with court calendar”.

        • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

          Followup…

          I am the one who has actually been pointing out all along how complicated and how nuanced these kind of ‘legal negotiations’ can get… and how it all becomes a big poker game with ( sometimes ) there being even more than 52 cards in the deck and both sides wanted to keep adding even MORE cards…

          …but my point up above is that even all of this kind of legal wrangling can reach the point of being absurd.

          On one level, yes, it can get really complex.
          But at the BASE level… ‘mediation’ is actually very simple.

          Either the parties are going to be able to reach SOME kind of compromise on ALL of the issues laying on the table… or they are not.

          And all it takes is one impasse and the mediation should revert back to an active court case. It’s not fair to all involved to NOT do this in a timely way.

          And it doesn’t take a YEAR to find out that there are just some parts of the case where neither side is willing to “give in” and reach a compromise.

          Example: If Arizona Foresty is trying to settle all of this WITHOUT having to admit any kind of responsibility… but the plaintiffs in the ‘wrongful death’ suits aren’t buying that and are sticking to their guns in their ‘accountability’ demands…

          …well… then thats an ‘impasse’.

          Time to have a trial and let a Jury decide the issues.

          Gamesmanship is fine… and it’s what these lawyers get PAID to do.

          But it CAN all get ABSURD and then the adults have to get involved.

    • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

      Reply to Bob Powers post on June 5, 2015 at 9:21 pm

      >> Bob Powers said…
      >>
      >> Judge Granted a new Stay till July 6th on the Law suits
      >> To allow for more Mediation at the requests of the Lawyers for both sides.

      I think it’s worth pointing out that this ‘July 6’ date is now the equivalent of the ‘June 4’ date that just went by and it is the date when BOTH sets of attorneys are supposed to supply the Judge with their REPORTS.

      That mean the ACTUAL ‘mediation’ session have to take place prior to that date.

      That also means an awful lot of ‘stuff’ is not ‘ganging up’ on and around the second anniversary of the tragedy ( June 30 2105 ).

      The auction of the land where the deployment site it, the completion of the global mediations, etc. etc.

      Combine all that with what happened last year and lots of people being interviewed by the media because of the anniversary itself… and it’s going to be an interesting last couple of weeks of June.

      • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

        Whoops. Typo. Meant to say…

        That also means an awful lot of ‘stuff’ is NOW ‘ganging up’ on and around the second anniversary of the tragedy ( June 30 2105 ).

        • Bob Powers says

          And we may still see something from McDonough by or before June 30th

          A lot may be coming to a head in a short period of time.

  2. sonny says

    Marti, you can bet Maughan did not expect much return on that area as far as cattle or horse grazing are concerned. Manzanita is useless as cattle or horse feed and even deer prefer a different plant to graze on. I think these ranchers lease these lands at such low dollar that it does not matter whether they graze livestock there or not. Peeples Valley is where all the grasses are and where their stock stay and graze. Joy tells me there is a use for manzanita branches in cookie cutter homes with birdcages. Seems the birds like to roost on the branches. I do know the berries are good bear feed on some species.

    • Marti Reed says

      Manzanita makes AWESOME tea.

      What you are saying is what I was thinking all along. Which is why Hays’ interview surprised and interested me. I got the sense from it that, for the MOST part, they WERE grazing cattle in the Peeples Valley VALLEY area and on the Congress side of the Weavers.

      But it was also clear, from the interview, that “they” (and remember “they” essentially sold the ranch in 2000) WERE winter-grazing “in the Weavers” (because the valley area water-table rose too much in the winter and that made it less than ideal for cattle), and that that was why he was all jazzed about how he learned from the 1960s fire how much it “cleaned out the area” and made the grasses grow so much better, and that was why he learned how to “prescribe burn” (as it is called now) the bowls, especially after they put all those firelines in to protect Yarnell.

      So, obviously, at some point in time, “they” were no longer doing those burns, and then the manzanita etc started re-invading and taking over. I don’t remember if he said anything about when they stopped doing that.

      But I can imagine that when Maughan (a Quarterhorse breeder-raiser) bought the ranch, he had absolutely no interest in grazing cattle, and thus no reason in doing what it took to keep the manzanita out and the grass in. So that whole aspect of “range-management” ended and so did the cattle-grazing.

      And so Maughan, I suspect, just kept all that ranch-land in the interest of eventually selling to someone who would subdivide it, and, oh, also, it’s a great place to ride horses all over “our controlled land,” and from there, pretty much anywhere. Which I’m sure it has been.

      When I was a student at Prescott College, back in the early 1970’s (when it was where Embry-Riddle is now), I could saddle up my Appaloosa Mare and head out to the west to Granite Mountain and ride all around and all over it without a fence anywhere to stop me. It was a wonderful thing!! I doubt that lasted more than ten years after I graduated.

      Which brings us back to now. Without managing the manzanita etc with controlled burning, there is no “range-land” and, thus no cattle-grazing, even tho the grazing lease is “paid for.” Cheaply.

      So what Maughan has out there is a long-term investment for possible future development or sale-for-development and a great place, in the meantime, to ride horses. Except for where the manzanita and other increasingly yucky brush invasion makes it impossible to even do that. But who cares????

      At this point I’m thinking out loud.

      He’s sitting on whatever he has out there for future development.

      I actually, even give all our fanciful speculations, have a hard time thinking ANYBODY would want to acquire the area around the Deployment Site for “future development.” I mean, come on.

      And NOBODY is going to be interested in running cattle out there unless they’re willing to do the kind of range-management that keeps the grass in and the manzanita out. I don’t know the cost-benefit ratio on that.

      All things considered, however, that MIGHT be something Yarnell MIGHT possibly benefit from thinking about, all things considered. Because, apparently, just sitting back and letting all the Manzanita grow back doesn’t bode well for the future of Yarnell, as we have seen.

      So back to Rex Maughan. I don’t think he really has anything to gain from trying to stand in the way of this Memorial Site going forward. In the general scheme of things. It’s NOT going to simply GO AWAY. (And this message is also to you, YARNELL!!!)

      I’m thinking that, if I were Rex Maughan right now (and granted I might have a bit of a different perspective on this than he might have), and I wanted to hang on to my investment in that area in the interest of future development, I would simply put up a fence (or somehow make AZ Parks pay to do that with the money they have left over after “buying” the land for less than $500k) on my side of the roads going through my land out there, with BIG DO NOT TRESPASS signs on it, and, thus, by doing so, rid myself of my concerns about liability, with some well-placed locked gates so me and my friends can get through them easily (NOT a NEW THING), and kick back and enjoy the ride, and teach my grandkids how to successfully manage a lemonade stand.

      And the FIGHT would be OVER.

      And I might add. Host a Memorial BBQ every June 30.

      What’s to lose in that?

      • Marti Reed says

        OK Rex Maughan, you can pay me $10k for that brilliant analysis and advisement, which could potentially save you a whole lot of money if you’re contemplating out-bidding the Memorial Committee in order to try to maintain some kind of control over all of this, which most likely is not, in the long run, possible.

        Yarnell needs to understand the seriousness of the wildland fire community’s interest in this site.

        No matter what you do or don’t do……….

        It. Is. Not. Going. To. Go. Away.

        Deal with it.

      • Sonny says

        If anything the ranchers in the area would be glad to see the manzanita burned off. Yes a prescribed burn would do well for the area now and again and I had thought that was what they wanted when they did not bother to put the fire out early. There are plenty of areas around Yarnell that still have the manzanita overgrown. I think though that the powers that be have decided that we already have too much methane production from cattle and considering it all, the fewer cattle, the better according to their way of thinking. Seven billion people produce a bunch of methane as well.

        Probably your Maughan assessment is correct. However, considering the vast acres of Arizona that the Maughan ranches control, a measly 240 acres of non productive land must register low on his priority list. He was one of the few that might have actually benefited from the fire.

        • Marti Reed says

          “considering the vast acres of Arizona that the Maughan ranches control, a measly 240 acres of non productive land must register low on his priority list. He was one of the few that might have actually benefited from the fire.”

          i agree and I wouldn’t be surprised if they’ve worked out some kind of a deal by now.

          Unfortunately, since the Memorial Committee is in violation of State Open Meeting laws by not posting the minutes to their meetings since January, it’s REALLY hard to know what’s happening.

      • says

        I would bet that the Parks Department would be WAY more interested in paying for that fence if it made it less necessary to put in that three-mile climb to the site.

  3. Sonny Gilligan says

    Marti, you can bet Maughan did not expect much return on that area as far as cattle or horse grazing are concerned. Manzanita is useless as cattle or horse feed and even deer prefer a different plant to graze on. I think these ranchers lease these lands at such low dollar that it does not matter whether they graze livestock there or not. Peeples Valley is where all the grasses are and where their stock stay and graze. Joy tells me there is a use for manzanita branches in cookie cutter homes with birdcages. Seems the birds like to roost on the branches. I do know the berries are good bear feed on some species.

  4. WantsToKnowTheTruth says

    **
    ** DEPLOYMENT SITE LAND AUCTION HAS BEEN ANNOUNCED

    Well, it’s official.

    They are going ahead with the PUBLIC AUCTION of the land where the deployment site is located and it WILL be at 11:00 AM on the morning of the second anniversary of the tragedy.

    The Prescott Daily Courier
    PUBLIC NOTICES
    http://dcourier.com/main.asp?SectionID=7&SubSectionID=257&BrowseClass=1&Category=50

    From this just-published announcement…
    ———————————————————————-
    PUBLIC NOTICES

    ARIZONA STATE LAND DEPARTMENT 1616 WEST ADAMS STREET PHOENIX, ARIZONA 85007 PUBLIC AUCTION SALE NO. 53-117361 Pursuant to A.R.S. Title 37, notice is hereby given that the state of Arizona through its Arizona State Land Department (herein called ASLD), will sell at Public Auction to the highest and best bidder at 11:00 a.m. on Tuesday, June 30, 2015, at the Cortez Street entrance of the Yavapai County Courthouse, Prescott, Arizona, trust lands situated in Yavapai County to wit: TOWNSHIP 10 NORTH, RANGE 5 WEST, G&SRM, YAVAPAI COUNTY, ARIZONA PARCEL: S2, SECTION 9, CONTAINING 320.00 ACRES, MORE OR LESS LOCATION: WEST OF SR89 AND YARNELL, ARIZONA BENEFICIARY: PERMANENT COMMON SCHOOLS
    ———————————————————————-

    I hope they ( The PUBLIC Arizona State Yarnell Hill Fire Memorial Board ) are ready for other ‘bidders’ to show up… and have at least a little more than $500,000 at their disposal.

    Things are going to get REALLY WEIRD if someone other than the State of Arizona gets ahold of that piece of property.

    • Joy A. Collura says

      from reading this link:
      http://dcourier.com/main.asp?SectionID=7&SubSectionID=257&BrowseClass=1&Category=50
      If ground-disturbing activities will or may impact one or more Register Eligible Site or Sites, purchaser shall consult with the State Historic Preservation Office and otherwise take such actions as are necessary to avoid, preserve, protect, or mitigate impacts on the Register Eligible Site or Sites. In the event that avoidance, preservation and protection of the Register Eligible Site or Sites cannot be accomplished, purchaser shall ensure a Data Recovery Plan is developed in consultation with and acceptable to, the Arizona State Museum and the State Historic Preservation Office, or their successor agencies, and the Data Recovery is implemented and completed prior to the Register Eligible Site or Sites being affected. The artifacts and records recovered from the property shall be curated according to the Arizona State Museum (ASM) Conservation and Curation Standards as established in rules implementing the Arizona Antiquities Act.

      reply: good to know. I will let some interested elderly folks know—

      • Joy A. Collura says

        GENERAL INFORMATION: The ASLD may cancel this auction in whole or in part at any time prior to the acceptance of a final bid. A protest to this sale must be filed within 30 days after the first day of publication of this announcement and in accordance with

        ????????????????

        • Joy A. Collura says

          Max D. Masel State Land Real Estate Director

          this man is in the link…this man is also the one the day after my hearing I was issued his map which he did not agree with the imminent domain factor of Maughan/Baluco/S&P/Whitehead areas and that State supersedes County maps/assessments. He is a direct kind man even though we did not agree he did everything to make the desert walker understand the importance of not being on the Weavers in that restriction map of what he mailed and I have abided by it 100% since receiving such map. I am crystal clear of all boundaries set before me and will not cross any of them yet in it I still find the whole thing unjust. How come a man on a horse with many dogs can travel the same area as I once did on the Weavers or some people who knew the men were not allowed but some were…this pick and choose method is why I also continue to unravel the missing threads to this here Yarnell Fire and like one psychic reached out and stated—“you do not have to be on any hill to reach the truth…sometimes just taking a step back and looking at the puzzle even with missing pieces you see the whole puzzle in completion”…yet in a world where documents and sources are so important I am always available to new or old information pertaining to the YHF. One person said they had the sign photo and one said they would hike the area to get a new picture…I do not think either method is needed but if you have the photo still; any tiny detail is fine and post a link on investigative media for the world to properly assess. I do have to wonder besides the current map restrictions which is obvious not everyone has to abide by it nor is there the proper no trespassing signs…we know WWTKTT had an interest in the sign and we emailed Bob, Marti to email WWTKTT and information I could gather before or after the fire and in that Elizabeth Nowicki sent a private email vs public request for the forward of those emails. I could not forward due to their emails were in it and last time I did that a loved one of the GMHS was not pleased and I am not going to get caught up in any silliness. I did send my whole file to Elizabeth but I have no interest in corresponding private with her. I like her. I like her piece with Morgan Loew. I just do not have the capacity to comprehend the delivery of simple questions that I answered but not to her approval and said re-ask in 2016. I will not have anyone set me up or redirect or do any silly thing to get me caught up in horseshit. I have good character yet my impression from corresponding with Elizabeth that she may favor to agree or disagree on that topic. Yet if Joy A. Collura can get thousands of petition signatures of having good character in less than a week’s time I think it’s pretty simple and obvious that very little amount of people stated “I don’t want to get involved”…when it came down to it I had more support asap than not. Why is that I have asked a few and they reply “you gave me hope when I lost my child” and “you gave me hope when I lost everything” and “you gave me hope that maybe they will change the way they fight these fires” or “you gave me hope I can fight the fight with the diseases I face because you too have your plate full”…SO for LOVE, HOPE and FAITH I continue on trying to be there for any and every area to this fire no matter how tiny a detail. I have no gain in this at all. Sonny’s son spent this week with him and he said “Dad, I just do not see how you and Joy hike for fun like you two do or do all you have for these people until I spent this week with you. You do it for Ted. My brother. I get it.”…Until you lose a person to a tragedy you cannot fathom the depth you will go to and Sonny never got closure and it breaks him into the deepest pit of painful tears and for that Sonny does this for everyone in HOPES the loved ones of the GMHS have closure. (1 Corinthians 13:7)

          ****Here is the facts. I believe with all my heart that the hundreds and hundreds of firefighters as well as homeowners who crossed our paths will one day come forward with more details. ****

          Did you just catch that. I said here is the facts…and I believe…
          I felt I was reading the SAIR for a second or Dickman’s book…sounded good but where is the sources…the names and say you have in book our names as one interviewed and you referred to the SAIR…all it makes me want to do is write Karel and Dudley a FOIA for our interview transcripts because page 194 and 195 is not how it unfolded Kyle. You picked words and pieced your narrative just like the SAIR.

          Now for my statement above..most from the firefighting community we met Spring 2015 by mere chance when Sonny was out to get a welder and they were in our space…we were there first…also since that event it just keeps happening how the firefighting community keeps naturally being placed in our space not going out seeking any of it—

          Even in 2015 I cannot remember and I am very very sorry but I may of journaled it on here and there is record but we met by chance one of the men’s father in Prescott and he looked us in the eye and thanked us for our efforts yet all the efforts in the world will never bring his son back but maybe this will never happen again with such efforts of others. I am sorry to all the loved ones but its not easy when I have hiked some of you because it’s not. That simple. Phillip “Mando” Maldonado was at the Ranch House memorial and we had NO CLUE who he was—sonny thought maybe Al-Qaeda but Sonny did not want him on hike—how that played out was Shaun Efran and his crew were contracted out by Weather Channel to take short hike with the eyewitness hikers to do this piece https://vimeo.com/82920041 and as the crew and us awaited Shaun (BOSS) to get up to the highway Ranch House memorial we ran into this young man and he looked very bereaved in his body language. He did not speak much. When he heard we were going up to the mountain top to do a piece for Weather Channel I said he was welcome to join. He remained quiet but spoke here and there. I never asked any information of who he was but Shaun and the crew got to know him and learned he use to be a GMHS and I said “shew, I will have to let Sonny know he is not Al-Qaeda.” You see that hike Sonny walked ahead and mainly solo ahead ticked off I let a man on the hike. He just did not want to hike with a person he was not expecting but as time of the day unfolded and he knew who he was, he knew this was right. I think God orchestrated a lot of this aftermath but not the missing elements that led to the death of nineteen men. Mando never gave any private brotherhood chats on the GMHS to the hikers but you all can contact Shaun Efran…maybe to him he did. Yet we all knew it was RIGHT him being there. He had life happenings and was not able to get to Yarnell sooner so it was all by chance just like a lot of this aftermath of the fire. MAN, if I can gather every account that would make a story in itself but you see I am not looking for a story or a book or a movie but the plain simple missing elements not yet shown. If the SAIR can answer my questions than I will cease this all. I will let this all rest.

          • Joy A. Collura says

            I do not see the interest in the sign and I can only assume Elizabeth asked for what I sent in private because we use to post everything raw as we got it and than all of a sudden we are sending it via email or in person…number one, you can thank the hearsays & impurities of what I saw in my hearing for that and number two, what was your interest in the photos Elizabeth? Was it just to kinda keep in the online flow of WWTKTT? Just curious. I reread what I wrote above and it popped up in my head…because usually Marti and WWTKTT have the photo dissect interest. Each person has been shared a link in confidentiality with no written,verbal, online permission to distribute what we send in person or in email. We normally say “public” but if we say this is not to be posted public it is not because we give a shit but because we now see people are trying to dissect the hikers and shit for me to be followed two years later with same rhythm of folks…it don’t add up…just a house wife…desert walker…not even working currently…after my next health assessment I may though…

        • Marti Reed says

          Good catches Joy.

          That “Register Eligible Site or Sites” thing is pretty standard, and is the basis for lots of archaeological survey. It doesn’t guarantee the preservation of a site, just the documentation of it.

          When I was an archaeology major at the first incarnation of Prescott College, I spent eleven weeks excavating and mapping a small site complete with a kiva on Black Mesa. It took a bulldozer half an hour to destroy it.

          Of course it was even remotely close to being as nationally well-known as the Deployment Site.

          Although, CURRENTLY, all the stuff the Peabody Coal Company-financed Prescott College/Southern Illinois University Black Mesa Field School artifacts are a HUGE BIG FIRE-FIGHT in the realm of Native American recovery of their ancestral properties.

          So there’s that. Considering the circumstances.

          And, yes, I had highlighted that paragraph, also.

          And, yes, this also:

          “GENERAL INFORMATION: The ASLD may cancel this auction in whole or in part at any time prior to the acceptance of a final bid. A protest to this sale must be filed within 30 days after the first day of publication of this announcement and in accordance with”
          ……….

          Which means that if Maughan et al really don’t want the Memorial Site to happen, they can just protest the sale.

          Popcorn!!!

          ————-

          I can’t tell what the “date” of this “publication” is. Was it in April? Or today? Or yesterday?

      • says

        Joy~

        Got behind on my email. Just found yours.

        Just replied.

        Deal’s on.

        Hope it’s not too late.

        Namaste!

        (sometimes people have to hit me over the head to check my email)

        • Joy A. Collura says

          Joy~

          Got behind on my email. Just found yours.

          Just replied.

          Deal’s on.
          THANK YOU DEARLY. PERFECT TIMING TOO. SAVES ALOT OF STRESS THERE.

          Hope it’s not too late.
          NO. I HAVE BEEN TIED TO THE FIRE THIS WEEK AND SONNY SO I CEASED THE CRAIGSLIST LISTINGS BUT YOU BETCHA AND ITS A VOW IT WILL BE RETURNED- THANK YOU FOR THIS OPPORTUNITY—

          Namaste!
          WHENEVER I HEAR OR SEE THIS WORD; NAMASTE—IT REMINDS ME OF THE MANY PILATES AND YOGA SESSIONS WITH MY MOTHER WHO IS VERY MUCH INTO FITNESS…VERY DISCIPLINED STRUCTURED WOMAN…NOT ME…DESERT TRAILING FOR ME…YET I HAD MY YOGA/PILATES/AEROBICS DAYS…I THINK OF MY MOTHER PLACING SO GENTLE HER HANDS TOGETHER TO HER CHEST/HEART LIKE A PRAYER WAY OF HANDS AND SAYING NAMASTE AT THE END OF OUR EXERCISES…I WOULD THINK “I BOW TO YOU???” HUH…IT REMINDED ME OF THE FOLKS FROM INDIA I HAVE MET…MY MOM SAYS THE INNER PART OF HER HONORS THE INNER PARTS OF ME IS HOW IT WAS SHARED…
          (sometimes people have to hit me over the head to check my email)
          HEE HEE…I KNEW YOUR EMAIL RYTHYM SO I NEVER THOUGHT ANYTHING OF IT..FIGURED WHEN YOU SAW IT, YOU SAW IT KINDA THING AND AGAIN THANK YOU…YOU WILL BE PLEASED THAT I AM A FOLLOW THROUGH GAL…

          • Marti Reed says

            Sweet.

            *chuckles*

            The “god” in me greets the “god” in you. Even though you know I don’t believe in a “god” but in the communicative intelligence of the Universe.

            I used to be a long-distance swimmer. Totally disciplined. But now I’m just putting one foot in front of the other. And YOU have helped me keep doing just that.

    • Marti Reed says

      Thanks for posting this, WTKTT!!

      So………………………. No delay.

      A further thought.

      I read somewhere yesterday, and I can’t remember exactly what it was — minutes of some meeting or another — that Maughan was concerned about liability, having people cross his land.

      He was told liability wouldn’t be a problem because people would be notified they had to stay on the road or get permission to cross onto his land. I’m guessing that didn’t allay his concerns.

      Makes me wonder if a fence saying “No Trespassing” (something Joy has complained doesn’t exist and should) could be used for negotiating??

      • Joy A. Collura says

        Makes me wonder if a fence saying “No Trespassing” (something Joy has complained doesn’t exist and should) could be used for negotiating??

        reply: not so much a complaint as it is to reinforce that you cannot ARREST people on the Weavers if one state land restricted or private without proper signage and fencing…it is a YCSO matter on topic of Trespass in Arizona: First, Second and Third Degree..A.R.S. 13-1501/02/03/04….how does one trailing out there KNOW where they travel unless they are ODD like ME and look into it and get written permission from private land owners and have a state land permit. SHIT. almost EVERY person we met DID NOT KNOW even about having to have this permit…if anything the state should thank my ass for their increased revenue on recreational permits because I required it on hikes with me long before this fire…ask locals I began to be such a stickler that I would not hike with you IF you did not show me you had it when hiking in Congress. I am an Arizona gal and born here but the very state I love has me disappointed in the way some are running the show here—

    • says

      Another thought.

      To be honest, I don’t know if highest = best in this auction. And I’ve wondered, all things considered.

      Highest is just a number.

      Best is a judgement call.

      Could it be possible that the caller of that judgement could decide that the highest bid might not qualify?

      • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

        Reply to Marti Reed post on June 5, 2015 at 11:58 am

        >> Marti said…
        >>
        >> Best is a judgement call.

        Yes.

        Interesting phrasing popping up there in the actual public land sale notice.

        >> Could it be possible that the caller of that judgement could decide
        >> that the highest bid might not qualify?

        Yes.. but the other interpretation for ‘highest and best’ means that if even if someone is the ‘highest’ bidder… if the CHECK BOUNCES… then the land is now awarded to the next highest bidder whose check will NOT BOUNCE.

        In other words… “Highest and Best” could mean… “Highest offer that is actually backed up with real money”.

        • Marti Reed says

          Mmmmmmmm. Gotcha, thanks.

          So “best” simply could mean “having dollars in the account this check is written off of.” Makes sense.

          Still, wondering, all things considered, if “best” could mean one or a number of other things beyond that.

    • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

      The EXIF data embedded in this IMG_1896 says it was taken at 5:48 PM on June 30, 2013.

      It was taken with a network-connected Apple iPhone 4S so that time and date should be considered to be exactly correct.

      Here is some of the actual EXIF metadata embedded in the photograph…

      File Name: IMG_1896.JPG
      Directory: SAIT/Dropbox/BlueRidgeHotshotsPhotosVideos/Ball
      File Size: 1891 kB
      File Type: JPEG
      MIME Type: image/jpeg
      Camea Make: Apple
      Camera Model Name: iPhone 4S
      Date/Time Original: 2013:06:30 17:48:00 ( 5:48 PM )

      • Joy A. Collura says

        thank you. Another complimented time stamp to homeowners accounts/videos/photos. Thank you for the time stamp.

    • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

      The EXIF data embedded in this IMG_1891 says it was taken at
      4:48 PM ( plus 54 seconds ) on June 30, 2013.

      It was taken with a network-connected Apple iPhone 4S so that time and date should be considered to be exactly correct.

      The time of the actual deployment site burnover has been estimated to be 4:43 PM, so this photograph was taken by Blue Ridge Hotshot Cory Ball just 5 minutes and 54 seconds after that.

      Here is some of the EXIF metadata embedded in the photograph…

      File Name: IMG_1891.JPG
      Directory: SAIT/Dropbox/BlueRidgeHotshotsPhotosVideos/Ball
      File Size: 2.6 MB
      File Type: JPEG
      MIME Type: image/jpeg
      Camera Make: Apple
      Camera Model Name: iPhone 4S
      Date/Time Original: 2013:06:30 16:48:54 ( 4:48:54 PM )

      • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

        Followup…

        IMG_1891 was taken by Blue Ridge Hotshot Cory Ball looking WEST from the intersection of Lakewood Drive and Manazanita in the Glen Ilah subdivision.

        He was exactly here when he took his IMG_1891 photo with his iPhone 4S…

        34.218613, -112.760252

        The image that precedes this one in the same folder ( IMG_1890 ) was taken just about 2 minutes before ( at 4:47:02 PM ) a few yards south of where he took IMG_1891 and his IMG_1890 actually captured the roadsign there at that intersection of Lakewood Drive and Manzanita.

        The reason both photographs are so DARK and they look like nighttime is because the smoke column was directly over Glen Ilah and blocking out all sunlight at that point.

    • Marti Reed says

      Joy, there’s a narrative associated with these photos.

      Cory Ball borrowed a UTV from Yarnell Fire Department and drove up into Glen Illah under a request from Gary Cordes to connect with the dozer operator (we think — the whereabouts of the dozer and its operator after Ball’s photo of it at 3:30 pm have been a point of contention and confusion, and are STILL unknown) to check on the possibility of putting a dozer line out from the top of Manzanita (we had LONG discussions about this back in November/December-ish).

      He only got a short ways into Glen Illah before the fire forced him to scramble back to the Ranch House Restaurant Parking Lot. Where he waited until he made a second trip in at around 5:43 and took a lot more photos.

      So that’s what’s going on in these photos. We are REALLY indebted to Cory Ball and the Blue Ridge Hotshots for all their photos, without which we wouldn’t know half of what we know. They have been essential.

        • Marti Reed says

          PS. I’m still looking at those photos showing the/those firefighters up there in the boulders near the fire. Great catches!! I find them VERY interesting.

          Do you have ANY IDEA when you took them?

          I haven’t had the time to compare them to the photos I downloaded from JD’s dropbox, so I don’t know if some version of them is in those photos.

          Are these photos part of the photos in JD’s dropbox???

          Thanks in advance.

  5. Marti Reed says

    Before I reply to various comments below, I am wondering if anybody can provide me with a link to the actual (document) wrongful death lawsuit(s).

    I’ve been hunting and hunting today, and can’t seem to find anything but stories about it/them but no actual its/thems.

    I started searching for it/them after I read the actual property lawsuit (which was easy to find). It was an interesting read. I hadn’t actually read it before. Some interesting details I hadn’t seen before. I don’t know if they’re a result of actual interviews or just speculation. Also kind of a problematic timeline.

    Thanx in advance!!

    • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

      http://archive.azcentral.com/ic/pdf/0627yarnell-fire-maricopa-lawsuit.pdf

      Direct download of PDF file from AZCENTRAL archives.

      This is the one with individuals like Todd Abel and Roy Hall named as defendants in the wrongful death allegations. Their WIVES are also listed as defendants but this is SOP for cases like this. WIVES of defendants in civil Cases are usually also included in order to prevent defendants from simply transferring all their assets to their wives… which is always EASILY done.

      NOTE that actual full names of wives not even needed. Jane Doe Abel and Jane Doe Hall is all that’s needed.

        • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

          Reply to Marti Reed post on June 4, 2015 at 5:43 pm

          >> Marti said…
          >>
          >> Hmmmm. The property owners’ lawsuit is definitely a better read.

          As far as the amount of ‘detail’ regarding what the lawyers were claiming actually happened that entire weekend… YES… these ‘wrongful death’ claims were not nearly as comprehensive or detailed.

          The ESSENCE of these relatively SHORT “Wrongful Death” claims are items 58 and 59 under the first count of negligence claimed…

          ——————————————————————
          COUNT ONE – NEGLIGENCE

          58. At all relevant times, the Forester Defendants assumed control of the
          fire suppression efforts and had a duty to Plaintiffs and their decedents to
          use due care and comply with the standard of care for wildland fire
          suppression efforts.

          59. The Forester Defendants BREACHED these duties.

          ( Followed by list of specific breaches being claimed ).
          ——————————————————————–

          So that’s really the essence of the case and the lawyers are claiming that the actions ( and lack of actions ) on the part of Arizona Forestry Management that day ( which included AZF contractors Eric Marsh and Jesse Steed ) were NEGLIGENT… and people DIED because of this NEGLIGENCE.

          That’s the case that has to be proved.

          If this first count of negligence can’t be proved to a jury then it is doubtful all the other COUNTS of negligence which are also in the document will stand up.

          ** THERE WAS MORE DETAIL IN ORIGINAL ‘NOTICE OF CLAIMS’.

          However… the ORIGINAL “Notice of Claim” for “Wrongful Death” documents that preceded the actual claim filings also had “more detail” than appeared when the full suits were all filed in June of 2014.

          The followng is a link to the original “Notice of Claim” for the “wrongful death” of Andrew Ashcraft.

          This document was made publicy available by InvestigativeMEDIA at the following google DOCS folder.

          This copy of the original is a Microsoft Word document.

          http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=3&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0CC4QFjAC&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.investigativemedia.com%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2013%2F12%2FAshcraft-Claim-Letter-Final-12-19.doc&ei=mEdxVfyLIMeXsAWXhIL4Dg&usg=AFQjCNEx-nxLFk3Rlo6qh9asrz7F7mHjUQ&bvm=bv.95039771,d.b2w

          ALL of the other original “Notice of Claims” that were filed are basically identical to this one as far as the content and claims go. The only major difference in the individual original claims filed was that each document for each Hotshot contained different photos and information in the section marked “The Decedent”.

          These documents were all telling us exactly who these men were. The information about them, who they were, who they loved, and who loved them far surpassed anything that appeared in any MSM article prior to the filing of these “Notice of Claims”.

          The information in the “Synopsis” and the “Description of Incident” was also more detailed than what would end up appearing in the ACTUAL “Wrongful Death” claims themselves that would then be filed in June of 2014… just before the 1 year deadline for filing the actual suits ( June 30, 2014 ).

          In other words… the CLAIMS themselves got ‘refined’ into tighter ‘legalese’ somewhere between the filing of the original “Notice of Claims” in 2013 and the ACTUAL claims/lawsuits filed in June of 2014.

  6. Bob Powers says

    Every one should check out the film on unacceptable Risk over on Wild Fire Today
    Excellent information on Climate Change and its affect on Fire.

  7. Joy A. Collura says

    wow, guess who is in front of me

    in the Yarnell library.
    I met him 2 weeks before the fire.

    Ferrell Truman (retired chief of Yarnell fire after Pete Andersen/PAINTER nowadays …he was glad by Dickman’s book and being in it with a full set of grey hair. Pleasant speaking man. He is next to Ninabill/Dorman/McCrary/Holly Becker and his home was saved by the fire. yes his wood home.
    He thought it burned as he drove away in the rv and said South Carolina fishing here I come…but Yarnell inspires him to paint. His art has been up since May and will be up again this month in June, Meet and greet is June 18 a Thursday so come bring your books and get them autographed and see his paintings. I like this man. He looked at photo of Dickman and did not recognize the fella so I said “do you think he even interviewed you?” and he replied it was someone from Outside magazine so maybe but does not look too familiar the photo. He described how when he left at 445pm Dorman’s home was on fire and that compliments others accounts too.

    Thank you for being at the library versus on some hot hike today…always a learning adventure.

    • Joy A. Collura says

      I will stay a little longer but I am thinking a miscommunication and they went to Congress library so let me go see and call down there and ask…

      if so send the information tomorrow from another town because we are heading out to the mysterious turquoise mines…always a wildlife adventure…

        • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

          AMAZING work, Sonny.

          THANK YOU!

          I have all 47 photos. Truly GOOD WORK.

          I am geo-stamping them now… but that’s going to take a little time.

          You are right. The SIGN itself is damaged and is hard to read.

          Looks like a lot of the black paint used for the inset lettering just got burned away.

          The TOP half of the sign ( the WARNING part ) is still easily read, but the SMALL lettering underneath it is hard to make out.

          Here is my best guess at what the entire sign actually says…

          ————————————————————-
          WARNING
          DANGEROUS CONDITIONS
          DO NOT ENTER

          Any person ( destroying ) or ( defacing ) this
          sign ( will be ) in violation of Arizona legislative
          statues section 27 -363 ( and will be )
          guilty of ( ??? ) otherwise provided by
          ( ??? ) statutes 27 – 302.
          ————————————————————–

          It does not appear to specifically say anything about EXPLOSIVES, so I’m wondering now how the sign ever got referred to that way in the original investigation reports…

          …but it is pretty much right where it is supposed to be… and right where you and Joy have already verrfied it being.

          This is just more verification that this part of the ‘story’ that seems to be now firmly established.

          The dozer (apparently) DID complete its work that morning ‘improving’ that ‘Jeep Trail’ all the way to near where this sign was, and right up near the edge of the COLD BLACK… and this work WAS completed by 11:30 AM that day.

          So even by 11:30 AM that fateful day… the PLAN from early that Sunday morning had been basically COMPLETED already… and there WAS now a ‘dozer push’ all the way from the COLD BLACK out west back EAST to the Sesame Clearing area that *could* have been ‘burned off’ later that day, if conditions permitted.

          • Sonny says

            Yes–That is a good 10 mile plus rough hike the way you have to go to get in legally. Where they started cutting to where they ended by that big rock and boulders around the bend to the north. Walking down that decline is treacherous to say the least–I fell once and banged that new camera but it survived so the photos came out good enough. What the hell were they doing down here in these steep boulders. I am sure they thought the same thing and that short steep fire line they were doing was ended pretty quickly due to the situation. Considering their exhausted looks when we passed them and that 106 degree day they did more than was necessary and as far as I could tell really was an exercise in futility to start with. Morrison and Wooten would have said the same, but I will have to check with Ted Putnam or Wayne Neil to see what they thought since they were the ones that actually walked and marked the line from start to ending. See it would have helped slow the south east progression at the time they were working but at that time the north progression was already a wild firel with the winds driving it toward Peeples Valley–That we were watching and now that I think as to why we saw the crew in limbo was they had likely decided that there wasn’t a lot they could do anyhow.

            The burn out at the Shrine area where you see men lighting up things with a Zip torch had to be early when the winds were headed north but that does not make sense to me even now since from the Shrine if the fire goes north from where they were it would possible spread to the NE which would take it to U-Stow it area, before that houses including Chuck Tidy residence behind U-Stow It. Maybe ok if the thing continued N to Peeples Valley. But if it reversed then it went directly up to that bowl where they died. Actually it would pass through the Sesame Street portion that is dirt track below the Helms and all that brush was dense starting from the Shrine back south and really dense from Sesame street to helms and bowl area. It would seem to me that from what we were watching that it was more likely the burn out they were doing that reversed and caught the men. You could determine that by timing the video taken at the Shrine–It may have been that some boss must have not figured that the fire would ever change direction as it did. Down in the valley you could not see the thunder storms that we could see atop the mountains. It seems Donut and the Blue Ridge guy saving him were likely avoiding the reversal of that Shrine area burnout. The other thing if you look at the dozer trail in one of Shaun Efran’s hikes where there is snow and we are being interviewed you will clearly see the bulldozer trail as it was made between sesame and the helms, it also turns directly toward the Helms in an east westwardly direction. If they were doing a back burn along that bulldozer trail then that would have trapped the men with a reversal as well. However the only video evidence I have seen that is significant is those fellows running up the Shrine road above where the pavement ends using their zip torches. Is it standard procedure to burn along a bulldozer clearout if you are not afraid of a reversal of winds? Well what they did at the Shrine was OK as long as wind direction was right, but whew they could not have known that the GMHS were not too far South of them and at a higher elevation in a box canyon trying to bushwhack through the thickest manzanita Imaginable. Surely firefighters are aware that Arizona winds can reverse in a heartbeat–though that does not happen often.

            I was told that one Fema man Dennis Faulk did operate one of the dozers for a time. If I see him again I will ask him if it is true. He did a lot of work toward trying to get federal aid and was hard at his job spending extra hours helping people when he could have been doing his own pleasures. He was one who did deserve an award for his efforts in helping others. He is one hell of an organizer and leader too bad he wasn’t in charge of that fire itself from the get go. You can bet it would have been out on Friday night had he been involved.

            • Sonny says

              two corrections–drip torch not Zip torch but it was a zip fire. and Dennis Foulk is the correct spelling. Denny was super on the Fema project trying to restore the Yarnell area back to normal after the fire.

            • Marti Reed says

              Sonny, you wrote:

              “The burn out at the Shrine area where you see men lighting up things with a Zip torch had to be early when the winds were headed north but that does not make sense to me even now since from the Shrine if the fire goes north from where they were it would possible spread to the NE which would take it to U-Stow it area, before that houses including Chuck Tidy residence behind U-Stow It.”

              I’m not aware of this burnout. Or any visuals of it. Am I missing something?

              • Sonny says

                It was on u tube a long time ago and it just disappeared. Joy and I both saw it and when I saw the rock fence to the left we immediately knew where it was filmed. Joy might be able to fetch it again somewhere. Definitely they had their drip torches going as they were coming back toward the shrine and lighting up along the road. Joy also maybe can remember the firefighter who posted it. It was tied to a guy named Red something u tube uploads and Joy found it off his comment wall. That same u tube showed the other side of 89 activity as well. Plus the firefighters just hanging out at the Presbyterian church.

  8. Marti Reed says

    So, I’m going to re-post up here at the top some of the stuff I posted down below, because, given the possibility that the auction of the State Trust Land to the group having been given, by the Arizona State Legislature, the power and the money to create the Memorial for the Granite Mountain Hotshots at the locations of their deaths, by buying that land on behalf of the Arizona State Parks Department for the Granite Mountain Hotshots Memorial Site, could get seriously derailed on June 30,

    I think it’s important to understand the context of this whole thing.

    —————————————

    Way down below, I responded to a comment by Bob Powers, by describing the fact that the ONLY way this land transfer could happen, given the set-up of the Arizona State Trust Lands. I said this JUNE 2, 2015 AT 5:19 PM:

    “Just spent the day researching the whole Arizona State Trust Land and the Arizona State Parks realities.

    Interesting stuff.

    It is NOT POSSIBLE to “just transfer” land from Arizona State Trust Land to anything or anybody, including Arizona State Parks.

    Arizona State Trust Land does not belong to the State of Arizona. It belongs to the Trust, and the State only manages it.

    It MUST be either SOLD or LEASED, and the beneficiaries MUST BE COMPENSATED for the sale or use of the land at the highest market value.

    And not only does changing any of this require amending the Constitution of the State of Arizona, but it also requires an Act of Congress to amend the originating 1910 Enabling Act.

    A NUMBER of attempts have been made over the past 10 years or so to “reform” the Arizona State Trust Land management system (because EVERYBODY finds is highly problematic in one way or another), and they’ve ALL gone down in flames.

    So, yes, handing half a million dollars to the Memorial Board to purchase it and, in turn, hand it off to Arizona State Parks (an entity which has never been seriously supported or funded, except during Bruce Babbitt’s eight years as Governor) and has all but been starved out of functional existence since 2006) is about the ONLY way to transfer that land out of State Trust use and ownership and into some other kind of use.

    This whole day’s worth of research leaves me wondering, however, if, since the land was, apparently, most likely used for grazing leasing (they HAD to have been doing something “lucrative” with it or I’m sure they would have unloaded it a long time ago), who had those grazing leases? And what might THAT possibly have to do with anything?”

    Bob Powers then responded JUNE 3, 2015 AT 6:55 AM:

    “From the looks of Yarnell brush fields I doubt the allotments could hold many Cattle based on actual feed per Acer so probably not any where near LUCRATIVE . The Value set by the State some times is to much for Range Land and people just do not buy or bid on the land.
    Some local Ranchers Bid and are the only bidder on the Range Allotments so the bids are low for Leases.
    some Section allotments 640 Ac. can go for $100 a Year with only 1 local Rancher bidding. The income goes to the School Fund.”

    ———————————-

    At which point I responded JUNE 3, 2015 AT 10:24 AM:

    “Not one to leave any stone unturned when I’m really curious about something, I did discover this morning that there WAS a grazing lease on this piece of Arizona State Trust Land.

    It’s noted in the Minutes of the Arizona State Parks Board of Directors Meeting on April 16, 2014, where they’re discussing the Memorial.

    http://azstateparks.com/board/downloads/minutes/2014/ASPB_MINUTES_04-16-14.pdf

    From Page 5:

    “4. Yarnell Hill Memorial – staff briefing on the components of the bill and its affects
    on Arizona State Parks

    Please see the presentation posted online at azparks.com/board Presentation 04/16/14.

    Mr. Ream presented a map of the proposed area for the Yarnell Hill Memorial site. State
    Land Trust has identified 240 acres valued at about $1,000 per acre and the Yarnell Hill

    Memorial Site Board will need to make the recommendation to purchase the land. At that
    time the State Land Commissioner will need to make that land available for auction. Mr.
    Ream advised that an adjacent landowner does not want a memorial put on the land as
    the only access point to the site passes directly through his land. Currently there is a
    grazing lease on the land and the committee may be met with some difficulty throughout
    the process. The other access points are north of Yarnell and a good bit out of the way.

    Director Martyn advised the Committee that this bill does have the potential of being
    designated as an Arizona State Park officially and they will then have to play an active
    role in the management of the natural resources.”

    I’m guessing, at this point, the logical holder of that grazing lease would be Maughan. But I’m not sure.

    Maughan is really opposed to this Memorial. So……….I wouldn’t be surprised if WTKTT’s speculation might actually come true and Maughan showed up at that little auction on the steps of the Yavapai County Courthouse on June 30.”

    More to come, to keep the rule of one link per post.

    “:

    • Marti Reed says

      And then I wrote JUNE 3, 2015 AT 10:41 AM:

      ———————————-
      PS. Another REALLY interesting and relevant thing I found on this Google hunt is a 2005 “Oral history interview with Senator John Hays” by the Northern Arizona University Ecological Oral Histories Course.

      I just read the transcript, but there is a video attached, and I just downloaded that and will watch it. It may help make more sense of the locations Hays is describing.

      http://archive.library.nau.edu/cdm/ref/collection/cpa/id/63397

      He even describes the 1960’s wildfire that occurred, leading to the building of the fire-breaks we have been discussing.

      He talks a lot about their ranching history and the kind of ranching, grazing, land management, prescription burning, etc that was going on in the Yarnell/Peeples Valley/Weaver Mountains area.

      The Hays family was the original owner of the ranch that the Maughan family bought a chunk of.

      “Description CONTENT: In this oral history Senator Hays talks about the environmental history of the Peeples Valley region and his family’s relationship to the land. Topics also covered include cattle ranching and sheep herding, grasslands, fire control, invasive plants, water and weather. BIOGRAPHICAL HISTORY: The Ecological Oral Histories Course recorded the ecological impact and change from those who have lived and worked for years on the Colorado Plateau. The project was funded by an Environmental Research, Development, and Education for the New Economy (ERDENE) grant and administered by the Ecological Monitoring & Assessment Program and Foundation at Northern Arizona University.”

      —————————-

      It’s kind of confusing in the interview to know EXACTLY which parts of the Hays Ranch were sold to Maughan and when, and I couldn’t find anything EXACTY about that today.

      But it seems to me, from various readings, that in 2000 John Hays and his family sold pretty much MOST of the Hays Ranch to Rex Maughen, although John Hays still lives at the original headquarters house in Peeples Valley (and I’m still not sure exactly where that is), and was there during the Yarnell Fire, and was cited in one of the major stories about it.

      John Hays was both a State Representative and a State Representative and has held NUMEROUS positions all over the place regarding range management and all kinds of related things.

      The sense I get from all of this is that, yes, cattle have been grazed all over the place around Yarnell, including in the Weaver Mountains (especially in the winter), for a long long time. Which would possibly explain why Rex Maughan would possibly still own a grazing lease on the land parcel we are talking about, even though, mostly, Rex Maughan raises Quarterhorses.

      • Bob Powers says

        A couple of things—-

        Any grazing lease on that peace of property would be able to be researched for the cost. Each bid for those sections and the term of lease is open for review by public.
        Not sure how to get to the states records but they are required to release that info on each parcel under lease and who holds the lease, term, and bid some are on a 10 year term.

        The other problem is access if the land owner will not grant access then he controls the State trust land as the Memorial Board is finding out.
        As far as grazing I am sure it is better now after the fire has cleaned out the brush.
        and for a few years to come dependent on rain fall to produce foliage.
        The State dose have the authority to shut down the allotment to grazing for a period of time so their closure could keep the lessee out of the allotment.

        • says

          Thanks Bob!

          I’m kinda sorta thinking some combination of Sonny and/or Joy might even know more about this via boots on the ground. I’m thinking they would know if they’d seen cattle/sheep/horses on that rangeland.

          Apparently there weren’t any there on June 30, 2013.

          There might be some there now, though. All things considered, including probably some good grass.

          Although, as Hays describes it, they didn’t graze cattle there in the summer. Just in the winter.

          • Joy A. Collura says

            I’m kinda sorta thinking some combination of Sonny and/or Joy might even know more about this via boots on the ground. I’m thinking they would know if they’d seen cattle/sheep/horses on that rangeland.

            reply: cattle/sheep/horses you see more on the Congress/Aguila side and even Aguila has goats and mountain ram like you see near Hoover dam.
            Use to be long ago cattle but I would have to ask Culp or ranchers or OX ranch or Grantham for confirmation on that. Rex has horses but you see them mainly on highway 89 not way out there. Way out there again is plenty of skunks and rattlers relocated…javelinas/coyotes/cats/lions, deer and rarely a bear…you see coons…and plenty of squirrels and pack rats as if you were living in NJ…so many jam packed in one little area.

            • Marti Reed says

              Joy,

              What you’re saying is pretty much what I was thinking. I didn’t/don’t think Maughan is actually interested in cattle-ranching.

                • Joy A. Collura says

                  yes, I am happy too because so many times since two years have gone by I wanted to just sit back and read and just zone out on here but my life has not been that way.so this has been a nice peaceful day coming to Yarnell.

      • Joy A. Collura says

        The Hays family was the original owner of the ranch that the Maughan family bought a chunk of.

        ————————-
        reply: another tidbit piece of important notes…he also has cancer and at Christmas time he was rumored to be dead but Maria Luissa who owns the Shrine gave me the facts and as well as the ranch hand guy too and Ranch House owner Vicki V….he is doing okay considering…not dead. Let’s see how many people get wiped out here in the community…we will continue to research that retardant ingredients because maybe some of the elements is doing the old school ways and attack the fire fierce early on versus what they are doing…

        • says

          Sad news. But I was wondering………..I notice he was born seven years after my mom. So he’s getting up there.

          He seems like a really really nice and interesting guy.

          Apparently he’s also an artist.

      • Joy A. Collura says

        although John Hays still lives at the original headquarters house in Peeples Valley (and I’m still not sure exactly where that is), and was there during the Yarnell Fire, and was cited in one of the major stories about it.

        reply:
        http://eweb.co.yavapai.az.us/recorder/eagleweb/docSearch.jsp
        is one resource to further find out your answer on that-
        also my medical massager’s mom-in-law…elderly woman lives next to Hayes and I can run it by her next massage. I do not travel too much near his area because I was always near 800-20-047s&u area which the Helms own next to that parcel out by Peeples Valley. Hays owns 200-12-001d…that Monica Mine Rd. has a lot of private ownership.

        I do know by locals about a decade ago Hays was rumored to have financial sticklers and liens so maybe that is when Rex Maughan obtained it…???

        • Marti Reed says

          Thanks for that link. I have no idea what, mostly to do with that site.

          But I did find some activity between John Hays and Rex Maughan in 2000. So I think that has to do with the sale of the land.

        • Marti Reed says

          You wrote:

          “I do know by locals about a decade ago Hays was rumored to have financial sticklers and liens so maybe that is when Rex Maughan obtained it…???”

          He says in the interview that they all decided to sell it because they were getting older and couldn’t keep up the work. But financial concerns could have also been, understandably, involved.

    • Marti Reed says

      So, next I wrote, given all the above, on JUNE 3, 2015 AT 11:02 AM:

      ————————————————————

      And finally, I want to post (for the record) the April 1, 2014 State Land Department “Order Authorizing Additional Access With Regard to Closing Order No. 006-2013/2014,” the order that closed the area.

      It states that:

      “It has been determined to be in the best interest of the Trust to grant additional access for litigation purposes to the State’s attorneys, witnesses, experts and claimants, and potential claimants and their attorneys, witnesses and experts.

      IT IS ORDERED effective at 8:00 o’clock a.m. on the date of this Order, that access is now granted to the State’s attorneys, witnesses, experts and claimants, and their attorneys, witnesses and experts with the advance permission of the State Attorney General’s Office.”

      The original July 12, 2013 order, a copy of which is attached to this file and addressed to Rex and Ruth Maughan, says:

      “IT IS ORDERED that effective at 8:00 o’clock a.m. on the date of this Order, the subject land is closed to any and all access and use, except to the families of the fallen, those public safety officials charged with inverstigating the fire and protecting the public and rights of entry to be issued for official purposes. No applications will be accepted for surface and subsurface leases, permits, sales, minerals, oil and gas exploration and right-of-way applications, until further Order of the State Land Commissioner.”

      So I don’t know where that closure left the holder of the grazing lease (which, given this order copy addressed to the Maughans, could indicate they might have held that lease). It doesn’t say anything about that.

      But if it DID exclude the holder of that lease from entering that land, I wouldn’t be surprised if that entity might have been a bit more than ticked off about it.

      http://azstateparks.com/committees/downloads/Yarnell_Land_Closing_Orders.pdf

      • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

        >> Marti wrote…
        >>
        >> But if it DID exclude the holder of that lease from entering that land,
        >> I wouldn’t be surprised if that entity might have been a bit more
        >> than ticked off about it.

        Agree.

        And yes… ‘that entity’ ( and all kinds of other ‘entities’ that might have their own interests in that land ) are going to be free to try and ‘remedy the situation’ on their own behalf and for their own untethered interests…

        …at 11:00 AM on the steps of the Yavapai County Courthouse…. June 30, 2015.

        If the Memorial Board gets ‘nervous’ about this… their only option is to simply postpone the auction… and start seeing what their options are.

        I could be wrong… but their MIGHT be a way to change the process to sort of a ‘sealed bid’ thing… whereby you get the chance to ‘flush out’ potential bidders without actually PERFORMING the auction.

        That’s a little funky… but it might be LEGAL.

        In other words… switch to SEALED BIDS… and ‘rig’ the process so that if you actually see someone wants to outbid you… then you actually CANCEL the whole process so they can’t get what they want.

        And now you know WHO they are… and what kind of additional funding you are going to need to go up against them.

        This actually happens all the time in the ART world… especially when ‘private collections’ are involved.

        Here is the other crazy scenario ( and would seem to more aligned with what the widows actually want ).

        Another BIDDER might have every intention of allowing a memorial to be built… but they simply want to be the ones to DEED RESTRICT the land ( as they, perhaps, even donate it back to Arizona ) and retain the power to say who gets to visit the site.

        • says

          Man, I’ll tell you, all of this is WAY WAY WAY WAY WAY above my “pay-scale.”

          It’s a good thing macaroni and cheese goes better with New Mexico Red Chile, at this point.

          Between this, and the ADOSH vs AZDF embroglio, and the Lawsuits, and all the pain and agony, and McDonough’s PTSD, and the books and movies, and the Prescott wildland fire=fighter staffing issues, and God only knows what else, (including all the possible illnesses leading to deaths in Yarnell)………

          ………..whenever I look at photos of the Granite Mountain Hotshots, I just say, under my breath, “Just stay there in the black, just stay there in the black, just stay there in the black, just stay there in the black………………………………..”

          More Shakespeare.

      • Joy A. Collura says

        IT IS ORDERED effective at 8:00 o’clock a.m. on the date of this Order, that access is now granted to the State’s attorneys, witnesses, experts and claimants, and their attorneys, witnesses and experts with the advance permission of the State Attorney General’s Office.”

        reply:
        WITNESSES
        does that mean US the hikers are legally allowed on his area?????

          • Joy A. Collura says

            at 2:32pm a person from this site privately emailed me
            Email Title: No.
            Content: The answer to your question is “no.”

            To clarify my comment today above on WITNESS and US hikers- I was in a huddle local library in many talks like Southwest airlines great deals, May artist of the month became an extension to June Truman Ferrell who if you are interested in his art work after seeing it at the library contact hi trulohill@yahoo.com or –602-301-4062 and his meet and greet is June 18th 2pm-3pm and other topics like local romances and etc. and Chris found a churchkey so when someone saw what page I was on as they past by humor flew in the area on topic so someone asked

            “WITNESSES
            does that mean US the hikers are legally allowed on his area?????”

            so I postedwhat they said but for the record it was not meant for a joke- this person asked seriously but I, Joy, for the record know the fine print WITH WRITTEN PERMISSION…so hope this clears it for the world that I am clear I am not allowed on certain sections and for the RECORD…I no longer even travel the Weavers. The very state I love did me wrong as the desert walker and with no help from game and fish we buried wildlife so homeowners did not have to face that unpleasant death smell hearing the comments we can still smell where the men died and it was not that—it was big ass burned to death deer and as well javelina and coons and etc we buried tomake sure these homeowners could focus just on their losses their at home not the awful smell of death. Only one from game and fish thanked me for that hard work day in and night we did. It was not easy in that heat.

    • Marti Reed says

      After which, I finally wrote this JUNE 3, 2015 AT 11:18 AM:

      ———————————–

      Oh, and another PS.

      I case anybody thinks that land might not be worth the $501K that it would take to outbid the state, I’ve seen 20-acre parcels around Yarnell for sale for as much as $200k.

      So that little piece of territory itself might not (at the going current market value) be worth $501K, but it could EASILY be worth it for someone like Maughan, in the long scheme of things, all things considered.

      • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

        As I said below… not to quibble… but it’s not $501,000 dollars that’s needed.

        It’s only $500,000 plus one single Lincoln penny.

        I actually don’t think the ‘donations’ that have been raised so far by this Yarnell Hill Memorial Board can be LEGALLY ADDED to the $500,000 they have to purchase the land with. Those ‘donations’ are supposed to be for ‘other things’.

        Regardless… I believe the Yarnell Hill Memorial Board has actually only raised just a few thousand dollars so far.

        • Marti Reed says

          You said:

          “I believe the Yarnell Hill Memorial Board has actually only raised just a few thousand dollars so far.”

          Yes, I think that’s true, also, and I agree with you that those particular funds are designated for the Memorial, not the purchase of the land.

          And, also, yes, it’s one penny not one dollar.

          Although I don’t know, all things considered, that some kind of donation for the land COULDN’T be added to the pot. I haven’t seen anything that says that couldn’t be allowed.

          And I have no idea whether someone or other on the Board is or isn’t aware of all of this stuff. I have a hard time imagining that, given some of the “connections” that are, apparently involved, everybody is totally oblivious to all of this.

          But who knows????? It could be a VERY interesting second anniversary of the Fatal Deployment of the Granite Mountain Hotshots.

    • says

      SO.

      That’s where things may be at, and how they may have gotten there, heading into the June 30 auction of the parcel of Arizona State Trust Land by the Arizona Department of Lands, which has been engineered to be bought, via $500,000 given to the Memorial Site Board, by the Arizona Legislature, in order to purchase the location of the Deployment Site of the Granite Mountain Hotshots, and, thence pass it on to the otherwise woefully underfunded Arizona State Parks Department — a move that a number of Yarnell citizens and landowners, and at least one really really wealthy and powerful lease-holder (who owns the land that he is denying access to that is needed to create a reasonable access to the site), are seriously seriously seriously seriously opposed to, for a whole VARIETY of reasons.

      WHEW. Time to go to bed.

      Context. It has a history.

      • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

        Marti… thank you for ALL of that ‘homework’ and ‘context’.

        I think if anyone from the Yarnell Memorial Board read that ‘context’… and realizes you are right about what COULD happen…

        …their only option right now is to just call off the June 30, 2015 auction.

        At least the site then remains ( indefinitely? ) on actual State Trust Land… and completely under THEIR control with regards to ACCESS.

        That beats the heck out of some PROXY BIDDER from some anonymous LLC possibly getting ahold of it and building the “Granite Mountain Water Park”.

        Dare I say it?… “Six Flags Over Yarnell”?

        500K was never a realistic amount to allocate if they wanted to be ABSOLUTELY SURE it ends up a State of Arizona controlled ‘park’.

        • says

          You wrote:

          “Marti… thank you for ALL of that ‘homework’ and ‘context’.”

          You’re welcome. I found it absolutely fascinating.

          “…their only option right now is to just call off the June 30, 2015 auction.

          At least the site then remains ( indefinitely? ) on actual State Trust Land… and completely under THEIR control with regards to ACCESS.”

          That could very well be the case. A whole bunch more NEGOTIATION probably needs to happen. And that might not be impossible. This really doesn’t need to be a total fustercluck.

          I don’t see Maughan as the kind of guy who would be interested in a waterpark. But I’m guessing he probably didn’t appreciate that memo. I have no clue what he valued that access to that tiny piece of the Weavers for before all of this ruckus. I haven’t looked to see if he’s on the list of people on the Loss of Property Lawsuit. He didn’t lose any buildings.

          And it was really interesting how John Hays talked about that 1960’s wildfire essentially cleaning everything out and making it all better, and how he learned prescribed fire-burning as a result of it. And then used it.

          I don’t think Maughan lost anything but his friggin grazing lease, which he may not have actually been even using.

          But to have been, for all intents and purposes “emailed”, in no uncertain terms, that he was BANNED from the land adjacent to his ranch, and his lease being, for who knows how long, most likely VOIDED, by a state agency that he may have agreed with others had been related to the “mismanagement” of that fire…………

          ……………….and then be expected to be all nice about opening up his lands to WHATEVER in terms of WHOMEVER passing through them…………………………

          …………………………and knowing he has all the friggin dollars he would need to just outbid that Board and end that game forever…………………………given that he owns about fifteen ranches all over Arizona………………….

          I’m just trying to wander into his possible brain.

          I should seriously go to bed instead.

          Goodnight.

          • Marti Reed says

            Still sitting here cogitating.

            I have NO CLUE what Rex Maughan was using his land or his (most likely) lease in that big middle bowl and little bowl for.

            Rex Maughan’s big interest is not cattle. It’s Quarter Horses.

            Which is different from when the Hays Family owned the Hays Ranch, most of which they sold to Rex Maughan around about the year 2000.

            The Hays Ranch was ALL about cattle, and they used the Weaver Mountain area for WINTER grazing of their cattle.

            I’m not sure Rex Maughan even owns any cattle on that land, at least to any great extent.

            So I’m actually thinking he might have been sitting on that land (and that lease) more with the idea of eventually sub-dividing and “developing” it. Or something along those lines.

            I was actually stunned to see a piece of land way up north of the area we’ve been talking about (approximately in line with Model Creek Road but way over to the west of it), with NO access, up for sale for about $100k for about 20 acres. That doesn’t mean the owners think they’re gonna get that any time soon, but……………they can probably afford to sit on it until………..whenever.

            So, given that Maughan isn’t all that much into cattle, much less grazing cattle. I’m thinking his interest in this land has been more along the lines of the eventual “development” of it.

            Given that nobody’s now going to want to “buy,” much less “develop” that little parcel of land that’s being auctioned off on June 30…………….

            ………..I’m still stumped in my thinking about all of this.

            • Bob Powers says

              Again he also controls access with his private property almost surrounding the State Trust Land. It is worthless to a developer if they cant get access from the Hayes Ranch Road (BSR) Road.
              That is what happens with these kinds of Sections and why the Private land owner controls the State Grazing Rights.

              Dose Maughan have sheep? What is his Lease per year or dose he even have one? Maughan controls the access and there fore the land with out a lease agreement. Gets very complicated here.

              • Marti Reed says

                You wrote:

                “Again he also controls access with his private property almost surrounding the State Trust Land.”

                Yep. And that just may be all he’s really interested in. He doesn’t want people just “wandering around” on that land. Before the fire, he probably didn’t really care all that much.

                I still think, more and more, that ULTIMATELY he’s “sitting on” that land for eventual development. Which he intends to control, and profit from.

                Once upon a time, awhile back, we talked/speculated/imagined about how the Helmses could (and, in our minds, SHOULD, along with the whole town of Yarnell) leverage this whole thing. Apparently they weren’t interested in doing that.

                Apparently, folks out there continue to think this whole thing is just going to eventually “go away.”

                That’s just not going to happen.

            • Joy A. Collura says

              I have met people who have told me they get hunting permission to go out there in that area so maybe for those folks …??? but nah I have only seen cattle on the other side of 89 over out 202-10-014 areas

              • Marti Reed says

                Thanks for adding hunting to the list of possibilities.

                I’m just trying to learn all I can about what is “on the table” regarding this.

        • says

          On the other hand, Rex Maughan could just sit back and continue to deny the use of his land for access and watch Arizona Parks go through all kinds of difficulty putting in that difficult route to the site and not, frankly, even give a damn.

          This whole thing might not even matter one iota to him, all things considered. Or, at least matter $500,000.01 to him.

          Who knows??????????????

        • Joy A. Collura says

          That beats the heck out of some PROXY BIDDER from some anonymous LLC possibly getting ahold of it and building the “Granite Mountain Water Park”.

          Dare I say it?… “Six Flags Over Yarnell”?

          reply: my mother use to live directly behind Jackson NJ Six Flags (parkway exit 98; if you know Jersey you don’t say TOWN you say EXIT)- the fence had the safari zoo bordered her property…I saw baboons and all kinds of cool animals daily there. She had no fence the fence was the safari adventure. My mom had baboons and other animals break out into her yard—even hit big news one year—but yeah my luck Six Flags will be in my backyard here…you could be right but hope not…those baboons are not friendly…They would not have to bring in animals though—enough safari on the Weavers already

          • Marti Reed says

            This made me LOL!!

            A wildlife park.

            We have an awesome wildlife park over in Edgewood, east of Albuquerque. It does great animal rescue and equally great educational stuff.

            Plus yummy chuckwagon barbecues.

            Come to think of it, adding this to the mix.

            One thing Rex Maughan is well-known for (and beloved, also) is the late September BBQ/Quarterhorse Sale/party/art festival/general get-together that is also a benefit for the Arizona Cattleman’s Association.

            I think he inherited that extremely successful and popular tradition from John Hays.

            Just brain-storming here.

    • Joy A. Collura says

      well here we go again but who does the hikers bump into and in all places- Yarnell but the people in charge of Veteran Disability and a man with no legs and another with one leg and they were eating and ready to head to the 89 memorial. They asked how come there is no way to the area for handicapped folks and we said no folks at this time- restricted off and eventually they plan to make a rugged way in kind of thing and let me tell you “steam” filled the room so do not be shocked if a campaign on that starts because they learned they will not have handicap accessible way into there. I explained most likely emergency quad entrance but this man seemed to be like a marine who fought and is a hero kind of guy and for the rights of people with disabilities do not be shocked a campaign does not come from just this simple brief hello how are you meeting…you see us people with disabilities do not like to be viewed as a liability—we all are liabilities in some way—if you want to go to see the area and its not restricted- do it…I guarantee you they will want to avoid hiking highly populated rattlesnake areas though…I promise you that Weavers has its share of them because of snakeman relocating so many for over forty years and I even sent photos and such to game and fish on the pythons Snakeman let loose that we caught one on the night vision perimeter cameras so it is not just rattlers out there. Plus any locals that are blessed to see the African size mountain lion and we have seen up close than things like that I would say you want to hike it—hike and beware kind of thing—enter at your own risk signs kinda thing—good news I am at the library in Yarnell waiting for a local to come with the explosive sign photos so you will get them today WWTKTT—They are driving up here to meet me here because it is cooler than Congress so you will have solid confirmation where you can dissect the photo for gps and have fun—my hiking ad flyer has not brought me calls to take a hike in 100+ heat but it has people offering photos so there you have it—today depending when they arrive or tomorrow you will have photos. YAHOO!!!! I told them to be discreet when arriving at the library so if I am being watched no one will even know who they are and why they came up here. No name at this point will be publicly given but a camera or video camera name or cell name—okay but we will knock that task out for you once and for all and sorry for the delay but I just cannot hike it up there—the ranchers and locals support me and my venture to seek clarity and that is where we will piece the puzzle together as a community of online and offline folks wanting puzzle complete but in the end I still think some pieces will remain in the dirt bag of the vacuum cleaner that was sucked up so it will take ripping into that bag to get those pieces,,,

      • Marti Reed says

        Perfect. This thing is live. All it needs is to go viral.

        Are you reading this, Memorial Committee?

        You should be.

      • Joy A. Collura says

        good news I am at the library in Yarnell waiting for a local to come with the explosive sign photos so you will get them today WWTKTT

        reply: you have been sent all information requested by outside source. I hope it gives clarity.

    • Joy A. Collura says

      Maughan is really opposed to this Memorial. So……….I wouldn’t be surprised if WTKTT’s speculation might actually come true and Maughan showed up at that little auction on the steps of the Yavapai County Courthouse on June 30.”

      is there any public display of Rex being opposed?
      first I heard of this…
      Wow, he would be the one to have an interest to land lock that area and make such a purchase.
      interesting.

      • Marti Reed says

        It was in the minutes of the April 2014 Minutes of the Arizona Parks Board meeting that I posted upstream, but will re-post the link of here. They were discussing the Memorial, and it says:

        “Mr. Ream advised that an adjacent landowner does not want a memorial put on the land as the only access point to the site passes directly through his land. Currently there is a grazing lease on the land and the committee may be met with some difficulty throughout the process.”

        “Mr. Ream” is Jay Ream, “Deputy Director, Parks and Development.”

        WTKTT may be aware of some other documentation of Maughan’s opposition.

        • Marti Reed says

          Unfortunately, the Memorial Committee hasn’t posted any of their Minutes since January (which is a violation of Arizona’s Open Meeting Law), so we have, essentially no clue as to the content of their discussions about all of this.

          • Sonny says

            Sonny says

            June 5, 2015 at 1:32 pm

            Your comment is awaiting moderation.

            Marti, you can bet Maughan did not expect much return on that area as far as cattle or horse grazing are concerned. Manzanita is useless as cattle or horse feed and even deer prefer a different plant to graze on. I think these ranchers lease these lands at such low dollar that it does not matter whether they graze livestock there or not. Peeples Valley is where all the grasses are and where their stock stay and graze. Joy tells me there is a use for manzanita branches in cookie cutter homes with birdcages. Seems the birds like to roost on the branches. I do know the berries are good bear feed on some species.

    • Sonny says

      The brush in that area is growing back after two years and if we continue to have another couple years of decent rains then it will be close to what it was before the fire. If you hike the area now be sure to wear jeans and boots. Shorts and shower shoes as I have seen before won’t protect you.

      Right now cattle could do well with the dispersion of grass and other plants. Eventually manzanita will take it over though.

  9. WantsToKnowTheTruth says

    Reply to Marti Reed post on June 3, 2015 at 11:18 am

    NOTE: This was brought up from down below in a thread that was running out of room.

    >> Marti said…
    >>
    >> I case anybody thinks that land might not be worth the $501K that it would
    >> take to outbid the state, I’ve seen 20-acre parcels around Yarnell for sale
    >> for as much as $200k.
    >>
    >> So that little piece of territory itself might not (at the going current market
    >> value) be worth $501K, but it could EASILY be worth it for someone like
    >> Maughan, in the long scheme of things, all things considered.

    And ( all things considered )… a lot of people OTHER than Ranchers like Maughan.

    Couple of other points…

    That area just to the east of the boundary of this Section 9 ( in Township 10 North, Range 05 West ) where the DPS Ranger 58 Helicopter actually finally ‘sat down’ and dropped off DPS Officer/Medic Eric Tarr was also known as “the cattle pond” area.

    I think it’s a given that there were no cattle anywhere out in that area at anytime that entire weekend ( or for long time prior to that? )… but that doesn’t mean the area wasn’t considered by rancers ( like Maughan ) to be viable ( and valuable ) cattle grazing land. If it wasn’t… then what was the “cattle pond” doing right there?

    Also… it’s not $501 K that will get anyone but the Memorial Committee that land.

    It’s actually just an even $500 K plus one single extra penny… unless the members of the committee themselves start adding to the $500 K that morning with what’s in their own wallets.

    So I think we are left with FOUR potential ‘categories’ of people that might actually show up on the steps of the Yavapai County Courthouse at 11:00 AM on the morning of June 30, 2015, and be ‘bidding’ for that land.

    1) The Yarnell Hill Memorial Site Board. They only have ( max ) $500 K to bid.

    2) RANCHERS. Some of them ( like Maughan ) have even already stated they do NOT want any kind of PUBLIC MEMORIAL on that land so close to theirs… and regardless of any other property value they see… that alone could bring them to the auction with checkbooks larger than the Yarnell Hill Memorial Site Board.

    3) A small group of widows of the deceased Hotshots. State Representative Karen Fann, who was instrumental in even creating this Yarnell Hill Site Memorial Board and in seeing the legislation that created it pass the Arizona House and Senate, has ALWAYS said that she sides with the widows and was the one who originally tried to put the option into the legislation that assured that the widows would have a chance at obtaining the land and controlling it themselves.

    4) Others? – Given the publicity surrounding ALL of this… there is really NO TELLING who might come crawling out of the woodwork on the morning of June 30, 2015 and start bidding on that land. I used the example already of Ross Perot… who donated his own airplane just get that WFF statue flown into Prescott. He has $500K plus under just one of his couch cushions… but can anyone really be sure someone else LIKE Ross Perot might not show up that morning.

    Matter of fact… I’m pretty sure an auction like this allows for PROXY BIDDING.

    In other words… some ‘agent’ could show up and just start out-bidding EVERYONE… and no one will ever really know exactly WHO that ‘agent’ represents or WHO is actually acquiring the property.

    It won’t even be clear on the DEED, when the smoke clears.
    The ‘owner’ could be just some obscure LLC or organization with no names mentioned.

    • Marti Reed says

      LOL, WTKTT!!

      After I just took issue with your description of Cory Ball’s photos downstream, I was about to repost my “hidden in the weeds” posts to the top because I think they are important, for the sake of context. I think I probably still will.

      While we are (at least I am) constantly looking for SOMETHING regarding this whole fustercluck regarding what’s happening with the “Global Mediation,” given last week’s cancellation of Brendan McDonough’s THIRD deposition……

      The NEXT potential fustercluck could really EASILY happen at the end of this month, June 30, the second ANNIVERSARY of the deaths of the Granite Mountain Hotshots, on the steps f the Yavapai County Courthouse.

      That’s why I’m going to post to the top, the stuff I posted down below. CONTEXT. (While I, WAY past my bedtime, am making macaroni and cheese because I’m hungry for it).

      • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

        Given what happened on the FIRST anniversary… and “all of a sudden” people who were THERE feeling free to speak to the media… there really is NO TELLING what might happen this time around… as that date approaches.

        With regards to just the ‘fusterclucking’ that’s gone down in just the past few weeks… I still think it’s fascinating that there are still NO COMMENTS on the MSM articles about this THIRD cancellation of Brendan McDonough’s deposition.

        Actually… I take that back.

        Still ZERO ZIP NADA on the Daily Courier article… but there are now just TWO simple one-line comments on the AZCENTRAL article that had the REAL information in it about David Shapiro now pissing all over the proceedings and trying to limit his client to one-single-never-gonna-happen-again-take-it-or-leave-it deposition.

        Those ONLY two comments are…

        Mary Melcher – Jun 1, 2015 7:12pm
        He wants us to wait and buy the book

        Hal Francis – Wickenburg, Arizona – Jun 1, 2015 9:51pm
        We need to hear what he has to say.

      • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

        >> Marti said…
        >>
        >> While we are (at least I am) constantly looking for SOMETHING
        >> regarding this whole fustercluck regarding what’s happening with
        >> the “Global Mediation,” given last week’s cancellation of Brendan
        >> McDonough’s THIRD deposition……

        Rest assured. All of that is just simply ‘backdrafting’ at the moment.

        Open a door… add a little oxygen to the heat… and WHOOSH.

        It’s inconceivable ( to me, anyway ), that one or more of the Judges in any one of these pending litigations isn’t going to break out their wooden paddles, start paddling these attorneys, and start issuing SUBPOENAS for the elusive Mr. Brendan McDonough.

        I don’t think the PTSD claim can be sustained, either.

        Not for someone who just listed themselves on Facebook as a PUBLIC FIGURE and proudly printed their own CELLPHONE NUMBER on that same PUBLIC page.

        • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

          Now that I think of it… regarding this “elusive Mr. McDonough” thing…

          I HOPE the following has occurred to any/all of the attorneys that will finally get to ask him some non-softball questions.

          It has to do with the YARNELL-GAMBLE video/audio.

          That video was shot by ( supposedly ) Blue Ridge Hotshot Ronald Gamble at exactly 4:27 PM from the driver’s seat of one of the Blue Ridge Hotshot Crew Carriers.

          At that moment… the Blue Ridge Hotshots were actively ‘mounting up’ and just trying to get the FLOCK OUTTA THERE.

          At that same moment… Brendan McDonough was just a few yards away sitting in the Driver’s seat of the Granite Mountain Superintendent vehicle and ready to ‘convoy’ and follow the Blue Ridge Crew Carriers out of there.

          So that means that Brendan McDonough must have ALSO heard ( in FULL ) the same radio exchange that Ronald Gamble accidentally captured while he was shooting his iPhone video and trying to capture that ‘cool’ fire coming over the ridge up there.

          Brendan’s priority channel was the GM intra-crew… but since we hear Eric Marsh himself speaking ( at exactly 4:27 PM ) over the TAC channel in that YARNELL-GAMBLE video… that means for sure and certain that Eric Marsh himself was NOT talking to Jesse Steed at that moment over the GM intra-crew channel.

          So if there was no traffic at that moment on the GM intra-crew… then Brendan’s radio WOULD ( most likely ) have also LOCKED ON to this same TAC channel exchange as the radio in the Blue Ridge Crew Carrier did.

          So it is HIGHLY LIKELY that Brendan McDonough himself heard this entire radio exchange… and *might* be able to recall CALL SIGNS… and WHO seemed to be urging Eric Marsh to “Hurry Up” and get Granite Mountain to Yarnell.

          Personally… I still think it’s just as important to know WHO THAT WAS as it is to know exactly what Marsh ( in turn ) might have then been saying or doing to try and get Jesse Steed to ‘obey his orders’ and/or ‘Hurry up’ himself.

          If Brendan didn’t hear that exchange… or any others like it… so be it.

          But I sure hope someone realizes that just as it has always been HIGHLY LIKELY that Brendan heard all this additional GM intra-crew radio traffic following his evacuation from the lookout mound… it is JUST AS HIGHLY LIKELY Brendan heard all this OTHER radio traffic as well.

          And I hope someone remembers to ask him about ALL OF IT.

  10. Joy A. Collura says

    wwtktt-
    i am sending you the information as i catch pics i think might be of interest to you-
    i like some of the pics from the osha hike.
    toss if not.
    still after all this time no sign yet-
    I could of hiked to the area already the amount of time I spent looking if there was no bs order i got but i do not trust any sheninanigans because the paper i was served mentioned hiking than the judge said state had to say it to me than to have state serve me next morning with map- nah, not interested in getting caught up in horseshit—
    i will keep looking

    • Joy A. Collura says

      well, it is not easy for me to go through an unorganized format of photos but I did spend some time today looking but now we are having company unexpectedly popping in and I am not even over there so time for me to say good night…it is hard for me to go back through photos because I faced alot of losses in too many ways but my loved ones and seeing the journey of them die just makes me feel stronger to remain here alive. Shit. Tears rolling down my face. Why so many with disease? I told my husband today hanging out with Sonny takes the DIS out of mine…at puts me at EASE. Many I know who know our journey are laughing on that one saying WHAT…I knew it…back on the trails to the mysterious turquoise mines Sonny use to work in…so adios for now.

    • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

      Reply to Joy A. Collura post on June 2, 2015 at 1:52 pm

      >> Joy A. Collura said…
      >>
      >> wwtktt- i am sending you the information as i catch pics i think
      >> might be of interest to you – i like some of the pics from the osha hike.
      >> toss if not.

      Thank you, Joy. Yes…. I have received all of these pictures you have been sending.

      Fascinating photos… including all the ones of what might have appeared to be just insignificant shots of DOZER TRACKS at various places out there.

      You joked about how you were kidding Sonny about taking pictures of just simple DOZER TRACKS there on the ground… but once GPS location is applied to those photos they are telling an important part of the ‘story’ about the actual WORK that was taking place the morning and the afternoon of the tragedy.

      So again… that matches the ongoing theme here that EVERY PHOTO IS IMPORTANT.

      Even the ones that appear to be insignificant can ( and often DO ) contain small ‘clues’ that add up to more details about what was really happening out there that day.

      In other words… SMALL pictures are what always make up the LARGER picture.

      I am currently working with ALL of these photos and will report more on them later.

      Example: I am almost done with one of those “through the looking glass” crossfades from your photos of the mysterious ( unidentified ) firefighters clearly seen standing out there in the area where Granite Mountain was working BEFORE the full Crew arrived out there.

      It “crossfades” from your photo(s) into a LARGER “Google Earth” map showing exactly where all these men were standing out there as you captured them in your photos.

      Another example: Now that you have verified the APPROXIMATE location of the EXPLOSIVES sign… it turns out that TWO of the photos taken by Blue Ridge Hotshot Cory Ball ( His images IMG_1880 and IMG_1881 ) were NOT taken where it was previously thought they were taken.

      It was previously believed those two BR Hotshot Cory Ball images were taken of the dozer ‘pushing line’ back EAST on the ‘Cutover Trail’ that the Blue Ridge Hotshots were going to work on much later in the afternoon. That’s the first ‘work’ that anyone ever gave the Blue Ridge Crew that day and they didn’t even get to perform that task. As soon as the Blue Ridge Crew got ‘lined out’ on that Cutover Trail that connected to the Shrine Road Youth Camp… they were ordered to RTO ( Reverse Tool Order ) and haul ass and EVACUATE back to the Youth Camp.

      As it turns out… Cory Ball’s images IMG_1880 and IMG1881 were taken WAY out to the WEST and right there near this infamous EXPLOSIVES sign.

      Cory Ball was the Blue Ridge Hotshot who had to ‘ride with the dozer’ that Yavapai County loaned Arizona Forestry because it only showed up with a Yavapa County Public Works empoyee as ‘dozer operator’ and he didn’t have the right WFF ‘qualifications’ to be working an Arizona Forestry workplace ( He was not ‘red-carded’ as either an HEQB or a DOZB ).

      At exactly 11:27 AM on Sunday morning… Cory Ball got OUT of the dozer as it was approaching that EXPLOSIVES sign and THAT is when he took his two photos with filenames IMG_1880 and IMG_1881.

      Those two photos are now VISUAL PROOF that this Yavapai County Dozer with this mysterious ( unidentified ) Yavapai County Public Works employee driving it actually DID improve that ‘Jeep Trail’ that lead to the northwest away from the old-grader all the way out to that EXPLOSIVES sign…

      …and THAT work was COMPLETED as early as 11:30 AM that Sunday morning… 25 minutes BEFORE BR Supt. Brian Frisby and BR Captain Trueheart Brown actually went up to meet Eric Marsh and Jesse Steed for their 30 minute face-to-face meeting at exactly 11:55 AM to 12:25 PM.

      Matter of fact… this also now proves that the Blue Ridge GPS tracking data is showing Frisby and Brown actually travelling NORTHWEST from the old-grader to go and MEET UP with Cory Ball and the mysterious dozer operator at exactly the same time Cory Ball had exited the dozer to take those two photos of his ( IMG_1880 and IMG_1881 ).

      Cory Ball took those two photos within 45 seconds of each other at exactly 11:27 AM.

      The Blue Ridge GPS tracking data shows Brian Frisby and Trueheart Brown arriving at that exact location ( where Ball just took these two photos ) no more than 1 minute later.

      If there is ever more access granted to the Blue Ridge Hotshots… or if they are ever allowed to talk freely about their participation in the Yarnell Hill Fire… I believe we will learn that Frisby and Brown did NOT get ‘lost’ while they were trying to get up there to meet with Marsh and Steed. I believe we will discover they actually DECIDED to head up that Jeep Trail that lead northwest away from the old-grader because they wanted to meet-up with Corry Ball and SEE how far the dozer had gotten BEFORE they then turned around, went back to the old-grader… and then took the southern two-track away from the old-grader and on up to their face-to-face with Eric Marsh and Jesse Steed.

      >> Joy A. Collura also said…
      >>
      >> still after all this time no sign yet-

      Copy that.. but PLEASE don’t trouble yourself too much over this “photo of the EXPLOSIVES sign” thing. You and Sonny have both already verified down below that the ‘red teardrop marker’ on that Google Earth image is, in fact, the approximate location of that sign.

      The ONLY reason this EXPLOSIVES sign is important in any way is because it is actually mentioned in a number of pieces of public testimony as the place where the DOZER that was being supervised by Blue Ridge Hothshot Cory Ball ( acting as red-carded DOZB ) and that still mysterious ( unidentified ) Yavapai County Dozer operator actually STOPPED ‘improving’ that Jeep Trail and TURNED AROUND and headed back to the old-grader that morning.

      It is NOT necessary to actually SEE the sign itself.

      Google post-fire satellite imagery shows pretty much exactly where that ‘dozer push’ ended out there… and you and Sonny have now simply verified the testimony that exists about the dozer STOPPING its work right around where that EXPLOSIVES sign was located.

      That’s important enough all by itself… so THANK YOU ( and Sonny, too ) for taking the time to do that.

      It is ALSO enough that you have already now supplied that fascinating photo of the gas can and the corrugated metal sheets lying out there on the ground on that Jeep Trail. You also already verified that is ALSO the same location as the EXPLOSIVES sign because if you stand where that ‘gas can’ photo was taken and simply TURN AROUND… that is where the sign is. That ‘gas can’ photo is pretty much just more proof that the sign is right about there where the Google satellite imagery shows the dozer push ending.

      >> Joy A. Collura also said…
      >>
      >> I could of hiked to the area already the amount of time I spent looking if
      >> there was no bs order i got but i do not trust any sheninanigans because
      >> the paper i was served mentioned hiking than the judge said state had
      >> to say it to me than to have state serve me next morning with map- nah,
      >> not interested in getting caught up in horseshit—
      >> i will keep looking

      As stated already… it would be NICE if there was an actual photo of this infamous EXPLOSIVES sign that shows enough terrain so it can be fully GPS stamped… but
      it is NOT NECESSARY. Just verifying the approximate location is/was enough for now.

      Thank you for all that you do… and HAVE done… but there is NO NEED to even get
      anywhere close to any more ‘horseshit’ over this ‘hiking’ stuff just over something like this.

      • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

        Followup…

        Here is a JUMPLINK to that exact PUBLIC online folder containing Blue Ridge Hothshot Cory Ball’s photos from Sunday, June 30, 2013… in Yarnell.

        This folder contians the two images named IMG_1880 and IMG_1881 mentioned above. They are in the second row of photos… 3rd and 4th photos from the left..

        .https://www.dropbox.com/sh/02ue6bnjp6nazkm/AAD72skvle6Io8jtO_DmLQn7a/Photos%20and%20Video/BlueRidgeHotshotsPhotosVideos/Ball?dl=0

        • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

          And here is a DIRECT link to Cory Ball’s IMG_1880

          Cory Ball has EXITED the DOZER out near the EXPLOSIVES sign and he is taking this photo while standing on an already-improved part of the Jeep Trail and he is looking BACK to the SOUTHEAST towards Yarnell ( in the distance ).

          The REASON he apparently took this photo when he did ( 11:27 AM ) is because he was trying to take a picture of that SEAT plane which clearly appears in the sky in the upper left center of the photo… flying back towards Yarnell.

          This MAY have actually been a photo of Air Attack Rory Collins… but the plane looks took small for something an Air Attack would normally fly.

          https://www.dropbox.com/sh/02ue6bnjp6nazkm/AAD72skvle6Io8jtO_DmLQn7a/Photos%20and%20Video/BlueRidgeHotshotsPhotosVideos/Ball?dl=0&preview=IMG_1880.JPG

        • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

          And here is a DIRECT link to Cory Ball’s IMG_1881.

          He took this one just about 45 seconds after his previous IMG_1880 photo and he is standing in the exact same place on the improved part of the Jeep Trail where he took photo IMG_1880.

          All he did after taking his IMG_1880 of the ‘plane flying over’ was TURN AROUND and now take a photo of the mysterious Yavapai County Public Works employee operating the dozer a littler farther to the west… and possibly almost about to reach the infamous EXPLOSIVES sign.

          IMPORANT NOTE: Look in the upper left of this photo and you will clearly see a portion of the COLD BLACK that was, indeed, right there near where the dozer was going to STOP improving the Jeep Trail.

          That is COLD BLACK from the day/night before.

          No smokes. Not anywhere on the interior OR on the edge of the black.

          https://www.dropbox.com/sh/02ue6bnjp6nazkm/AAD72skvle6Io8jtO_DmLQn7a/Photos%20and%20Video/BlueRidgeHotshotsPhotosVideos/Ball?dl=0&preview=IMG_1881.JPG

          • Marti Reed says

            Thanks for all of this, WTKTT!

            I never had ANY IDEA where these two photos were taken and I do not remember any “It was previously believed those two BR Hotshot Cory Ball images were taken of the dozer ‘pushing line’ back EAST on the ‘Cutover Trail’ that the Blue Ridge Hotshots were going to work on much later in the afternoon.”

            As I remember it, we DID discuss where the photos that he took later of the dozer and the crew that afternoon were taken. Which was, in fact, “of the dozer ‘pushing line’ back EAST on the ‘Cutover Trail’”

            My question is HOW DO YOU KNOW where these two photos were taken? They are not geotagged. I am perfectly willing to accept that you have, via Google Earth/Map become way more familiar with that landscape than I am. But I really don’t know how you can be so certain that these photos were taken where you are saying they were taken.

            A problem I am having with your description above is this:

            “All he did after taking his IMG_1880 of the ‘plane flying over’ was TURN AROUND and now take a photo of the mysterious Yavapai County Public Works employee operating the dozer a littler farther to the west… and possibly almost about to reach the infamous EXPLOSIVES sign.”

            Thinking that 1881 is looking to the west doesn’t make any sense to me at all.

            1880 shows, clearly, Yarnell proper in the background. That would have, generally speaking, meant that Ball was shooting THIS photo facing, relatively speaking, toward the WEST.

            I agree that then he turned around. But that would mean that:

            1881 is taken in the OPPOSITE direction, i.e toward the EAST, with the hill coming down from the left, meaning he was taking this photo looking toward the EAST.

            So I have a question and a disagreement.

            Question: How do you KNOW Ball was taking these photos where you say he was taking them.

            Disagreement: I would lay humongous bets that he was taking these photos facing in the opposite direction you are saying he was taking them.

            • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

              Marti… it’s late here so this has to be short.

              I have ‘Google Earth’ “through the looking glass” crossfades for BOTH of these Cory Ball photos that ‘geo-places’ them to within ( I believe ) 100 feet of actual location.

              I just haven’t posted these “crossfades” yet… but I will.

              Hint: For 1880… Look closely at that MOUND in the right side of the photo. The ROCKS can be easily matched to Google Earth imagery.

              >> Marti said…
              >>
              >> Thinking that 1881 is looking to the west doesn’t
              >> make any sense to me at all.

              Look in the upper left corner of 1881.

              That is COLD BLACK from the previous day/night that was up on THE RIDGE.

              That means Ball was facing WEST while standing on the Jeep Trail up there near that EXPLOSIVES sign.

              • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

                Another quick followup…

                >> Marti said…
                >>
                >> 1880 shows, clearly, Yarnell proper in the background.
                >> That would have, generally speaking, meant that Ball
                >> was shooting THIS photo facing, relatively speaking,
                >> toward the WEST.

                I think you are a little mixed up as to EAST and WEST on this one.

                What I actually said was that for 1880… Ball was standing on the Jeep Trail and shooting to the SOUTHEAST.

                Until I can upload the Google Earth ‘through the looking glass’ crossfades… just call up Google Maps with satellite view of the area and locate the old-grader itself.

                The ‘view’ back towards Yarnell from even just the old-grader would be “looking to the SOUTHEAST”… not the WEST.

                The ‘Jeep Trail’ in question is the one that led directly to the NORTHWEST away from the old-grader… so even at ANY point along that ‘Jeep Trail’… a photo taken showing Yarnell like Ball’s 1880 does would be (generally) a view to the SOUTHEAST.

      • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

        Followup…

        And HERE is the Blue Ridge GPS tracking data from the 11:00 AM to 12:30 PM timeframe as mentioned in the post above.

        It shows Brian Frisby and Trueheart Brown heading UP the Jeep Trail to the northwest to where Cory Ball and the Dozer were ( near that EXPLOSIVES sign ) and then arriving right there in that location just about 1 minute after Cory Ball took his photos IMG_1880 and IMG_1881.

        It then shows Frisby and Brown TURNING AROUND, heading BACK to the old-grader, and then heading up the other two-track that lead SOUTH away from the old-grader and on up to their 30 minute face-to-face with Eric Marsh and Brian Frisby.

        Apparently Captain Brown left the GPS unit in the Polaris Ranger for the duration of this 30 minute meeting since the tracking data shows it to be absolutely stationary ( parked ) for that entire time.

        It then shows Frisby and Brown LEAVING that meeting ( with Brendan McDonough now onboard the Polaris Ranger ), heading back towards the old-grader, and then stopping for a moment ( at exactly 12:39 PM ) to let Brendan out so he could hike up to his lookout position on that mound where he would remain for the rest of the afternoon until he got into trouble.

        NOTE: The sequence showing Frisby and Brown purposely traveling to the NORTHWEST and up that Jeep Trail to meet with Cory Ball and the mysterious dozer operator actually comes at the very beginning of this Blue Ridge GPS tracking day.

        That’s because Blue Ridge Captain Brown didn’t even turn his GPS tracking unit ON until exactly 11:00 PM when he arrived out there near the old-grader, and the unit didn’t start recording valid GPS data ( still right there at the old-grader ) until 11:10 AM, just before they decided to head up that Jeep Trail to the northwest and meet with Cory Ball and the mysterious dozer operator.

        They actually ‘took off’ in that direction ( from the old-grader ) to meet with Ball at 11:23 PM… and they arrived at his location near the EXPLOSIVES sign at 11:28 AM… just 60 seconds after Ball had taken his two images IMG_1880 and IMG_1881.

        They then ‘scouted west’ just a little bit more and up into that drainage ( past the EXPLOSIVES sign )…and then they turned around and went ‘ricky-tick’ back to the old-grader and on up to their face-to-face meeting with Marsh and Steed.

        Blue Ridge GPS Tracking Data – Unit in possession of BR Captain Brown
        ———————————————————————————
        COLUMNS:

        Time – Latitude, Longitude – Distance traveled (feet) – Rate (mph) – Description

        1100 – VIDEO STARTS
        1101 – 1109 – VIDEO is running but tracking pointer doesn’t appear until 1110
        1110 – 34.231428, -112.782608 – 0000.000 – 00.00 – Pointer appears near old-grader
        1111 – 34.231428, -112.782608 – 0000.000 – 00.00 – Stationary
        1112 – 34.231464, -112.782528 – 0023.050 – 00.26 – Slight movement east on two-track
        1113 – 34.231464, -112.782528 – 0000.000 – 00.00 – Stationary
        1114 – 34.231311, -112.783531 – 0343.066 – 03.90 – Back west to old-grader itself
        1115 – 34.231362, -112.783678 – 0054.318 – 00.62 – Slight movement to west of old-grader
        1116 – 34.231309, -112.783705 – 0018.698 – 00.21 – Slight movement south in grader clearing
        1117 – 34.231309, -112.783705 – 0000.000 – 00.00 – Stationary
        1118 – 34.231309, -112.783705 – 0000.000 – 00.00 – Stationary
        1119 – 34.231309, -112.783705 – 0000.000 – 00.00 – Stationary
        1120 – 34.231309, -112.783705 – 0000.000 – 00.00 – Stationary
        1121 – 34.231309, -112.783705 – 0000.000 – 00.00 – Stationary
        1122 – 34.231309, -112.783705 – 0000.000 – 00.00 – Stationary
        1123 – 34.231367, -112.783689 – 0024.364 – 00.28 – Slight movement back north
        1124 – 34.231648, -112.784110 – 0163.805 – 01.85 – Headed northwest on jeep trail away from grader
        1125 – 34.231955, -112.784979 – 0339.999 – 03.85 – Continuing northwest on jeep trail
        1126 – 34.232284, -112.785290 – 0143.944 – 01.64 – Still headed northwest on jeep trail
        1127 – 34.232603, -112.785602 – 0161.395 – 01.83 – Still headed northwest on jeep trail
        1128 – 34.232603, -112.785602 – 0000.000 – 00.00 – Stationary
        1129 – 34.233197, -112.786809 – 0434.956 – 04.94 – Still headed northwest on jeep trail
        1130 – 34.233255, -112.787624 – 0249.851 – 02.84 – Still on jeep trail, now headed more westerly
        1131 – 34.233091, -112.788166 – 0176.292 – 02.00 – Still on jeep trail, now headed west
        1132 – 34.233091, -112.788166 – 0000.000 – 00.00 – Stationary
        1133 – 34.233202, -112.787822 – 0115.505 – 01.31 – Now headed back east on jeep trail
        1134 – 34.233277, -112.787340 – 0145.492 – 01.65 – Back east on jeep trail
        1135 – 34.233140, -112.786701 – 0227.090 – 02.58 – Now headed southeast on jeep trail
        1136 – 34.232476, -112.785451 – 0439.727 – 05.00 – Still headed southeast back towards old-grader
        1137 – 34.231348, -112.783676 – 0737.133 – 08.38 – Arrival back at western edge of old-grader clearing
        1138 – 34.230780, -112.782903 – 0414.637 – 04.70 – Went past grader, back to main two-track, then south
        1139 – 34.229727, -112.782962 – 0413.506 – 04.69 – Still headed south on two-track
        1140 – 34.228671, -112.782876 – 0395.696 – 04.49 – Still headed south on two-track
        1141 – 34.227811, -112.782962 – 0305.242 – 03.47 – Still headed south on two-track
        1142 – 34.226398, -112.783456 – 0584.841 – 06.64 – Still headed south on two-track ( towards anchor pt.)
        1143 – 34.225795, -112.783450 – 0236.614 – 02.68 – Still headed south on two-track
        1144 – 34.225107, -112.784395 – 0345.736 – 03.92 – Still headed to anchor point, now climbing to west
        1145 – 34.225152, -112.785468 – 0373.750 – 04.24 – Still climbing west up to anchor point
        1146 – 34.224704, -112.786186 – 0318.112 – 03.61 – At two-track junction now. ( Mystery panel location )
        1147 – 34.225072, -112.786514 – 0178.261 – 02.03 – Heading north on two-track toward anchor point
        1148 – 34.225715, -112.787088 – 0331.968 – 03.76 – Heading north on two-track toward anchor point
        1149 – 34.225258, -112.787452 – 0195.187 – 02.22 – Heading north on two-track toward anchor point
        1150 – 34.224872, -112.787951 – 0240.243 – 02.73 – Heading north on two-track toward anchor point
        1151 – 34.225387, -112.788166 – 0210.341 – 02.41 – Heading north on two-track toward anchor point
        1152 – 34.226309, -112.788616 – 0395.360 – 04.50 – Heading north on two-track toward anchor point
        1153 – 34.226977, -112.789528 – 0401.875 – 04,57 – Arrival at anchor point for face-to-face with Marsh/Steed
        1154 – 34.226977, -112.789528 – 0000.000 – 00.00 – Stationary
        1155 – 34.226977, -112.789528 – 0000.000 – 00.00 – Stationary
        1156 – 34.226977, -112.789528 – 0000.000 – 00.00 – Stationary
        1157 – 34.226977, -112.789528 – 0000.000 – 00.00 – Stationary
        1158 – 34.226977, -112.789528 – 0000.000 – 00.00 – Stationary
        1159 – 34.226977, -112.789528 – 0000.000 – 00.00 – Stationary
        1200 – 34.226977, -112.789528 – 0000.000 – 00.00 – Stationary
        1201 – 34.226977, -112.789528 – 0000.000 – 00.00 – Stationary
        1202 – 34.226977, -112.789528 – 0000.000 – 00.00 – Stationary
        1203 – 34.226977, -112.789528 – 0000.000 – 00.00 – Stationary
        1204 – 34.226977, -112.789528 – 0000.000 – 00.00 – Stationary
        1205 – 34.226977, -112.789528 – 0000.000 – 00.00 – Stationary
        1206 – 34.226977, -112.789528 – 0000.000 – 00.00 – Stationary
        1207 – 34.226977, -112.789528 – 0000.000 – 00.00 – Stationary
        1208 – 34.226977, -112.789528 – 0000.000 – 00.00 – Stationary
        1209 – 34.226977, -112.789528 – 0000.000 – 00.00 – Stationary
        1210 – 34.226977, -112.789528 – 0000.000 – 00.00 – Stationary
        1211 – 34.226977, -112.789528 – 0000.000 – 00.00 – Stationary
        1212 – 34.226977, -112.789528 – 0000.000 – 00.00 – Stationary
        1213 – 34.226977, -112.789528 – 0000.000 – 00.00 – Stationary
        1214 – 34.226977, -112.789528 – 0000.000 – 00.00 – Stationary
        1215 – 34.226977, -112.789528 – 0000.000 – 00.00 – Stationary
        1216 – 34.226977, -112.789528 – 0000.000 – 00.00 – Stationary
        1217 – 34.226977, -112.789528 – 0000.000 – 00.00 – Stationary
        1218 – 34.226977, -112.789528 – 0000.000 – 00.00 – Stationary
        1219 – 34.226977, -112.789528 – 0000.000 – 00.00 – Stationary
        1220 – 34.226977, -112.789528 – 0000.000 – 00.00 – Stationary
        1221 – 34.226977, -112.789528 – 0000.000 – 00.00 – Stationary
        1222 – 34.226977, -112.789528 – 0000.000 – 00.00 – Stationary
        1223 – 34.226977, -112.789528 – 0000.000 – 00.00 – Stationary
        1224 – 34.226977, -112.789528 – 0000.000 – 00.00 – Stationary
        1225 – 34.227216, -112.790698 – 0448.106 – 05.09 – Slight move north on two-track
        1226 – 34.226932, -112.790086 – 0214.886 – 02.44 – Slight move south on two-track
        1227 – 34.226507, -112.788713 – 0567.084 – 06.44 – Heading south back down two-track quickly now
        1228 – 34.225460, -112.788144 – 0435.904 – 04.95 – South on two-track
        1229 – 34.224830, -112.787833 – 0298.186 – 03.39 – South on two-track
        1230 – 34.225717, -112.787104 – 0406.622 – 04.62 – South on two-track
        1231 – 34.225185, -112.786546 – 0330.076 – 03.76 – South on two-track
        1232 – 34.224704, -112.786186 – 0208.207 – 02.37 – At two-track junction again. ( Mystery panel location )
        1233 – 34.225025, -112.785001 – 0477.361 – 05.42 – East on two-track back down towards old-grader
        1234 – 34.225877, -112.783424 – 0585.917 – 06.66 – North on two-track back towards old-grader
        1235 – 34.227881, -112.782887 – 0788.222 – 08.96 – North on two-track back towards old-grader
        1236 – 34.229185, -112.782823 – 0493.748 – 05.61 – North on two-track back towards old-grader
        1237 – 34.230037, -112.783016 – 0315.424 – 03.58 – North on two-track back towards old-grader
        1238 – 34.231093, -112.782823 – 0396.879 – 04.51 – North on two-track back towards old-grader
        1239 – 34.231255, -112.782807 – 0058.155 – 00.66 – Dropping Brendan off at road junction(s) near grader
        —————————————————————————

        • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

          Followup…

          Every time I post one of these ‘cuts’ from the Blue Ridge GPS tracking data I feel the need to point out the following…

          1) Brendan McDonough testified to ADOSH that Granite Mountain NORMALLY carried at least FOUR of these kinds of handheld GPS tracking units into the field with them whenever they worked a fire.

          2) Thanks to Calvin’s sharp eyes… we have ALWAYS known for SURE that they had at least ONE of these GPS units out there on that ridge with them in Yarnell… and it was right there attached to the left pack-strap of Robert Caldwell ( as seen in the MacKenzie photo of Caldwell facing Christopher’s camera with his lighted drip torch in his hand ).

          3) Robert Caldwell’s GPS unit ( which we KNOW he had that day ) has NEVER SHOWN UP in the evidence record. Not ever.

          Wouldn’t it be nice to at least see the same kind of CLEAR movement and location data represented by the Blue Ridge GPS data for at least even just Robert Caldwell that day.

          Better yet… what if Eric Marsh actually had one of the FOUR that Granite Mountain was supposed to always be carrying… and Marsh had it on like Captain Brown did.

          Maybe he ( Marsh ) did… and maybe that’s part of the reason that NO GPS UNIT has ever shown up in evidence record.

          More potential specific questions for Brendan, really.

          Does he know MORE than he has ever said about just WHO actually had a GPS unit with them out there that day?

          It’s pretty much a given that Brendan himself did not… but could he still possibly NAME the ( potentially ) FOUR other people who DID?

          • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

            This may or may not be relevant to the questions that Brendan could be asked about who, exactly, was in possession of GPS units that day… but it’s certainly ironic.

            The CRIME that Brendan McDonough actually did JAIL TIME for was for stealing a GPS unit.

            From Kyle Dickman’s original article about Yarnell…

            http://www.outsideonline.com/1926426/19-true-story-yarnell-hill-fire

            ———————————————————-
            Donut can trace his interest in firefighting to a fire-science class he took as a 14-year-old kid. He came to Granite Mountain during hard times. In December 2010, he’d spent a couple of nights in jail for possession of a stolen GPS.
            ———————————————————-

          • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

            Two more quick points about Granite Mountain and GPS units…

            1) NO INVESTIGATION ever bothered to even obtain an EQUIPMENT INVENTORY list for this organization known as “Granite Mountain”.

            Some BUDGET documents were requested ( and supplied ) by the City of Prescott… but NOWHERE in those documents is their any detail about equipment expenditures or acquisitions or whether the hand tools, power tools, radios, GPS units ( if any ) or any other support items were being paid for with City of Prescott dollars or out of these constant GRANT monies that were showing up.

            2) Eric Marsh was a GPS expert.

            In his OWN RESUME’… in his OWN PERSONNEL file… Eric Marsh took the time to point out that he was “Skilled in GPS”.

            From the document named “Eric Marsh Personnel File.pdf” that is
            part of the ADOSH public evidence release.

            On page 68 ( of 132 pages )… Eric S. Marsh’s RESUME’

            Eric Marsh himself listing his ‘additional skills’…
            —————————————————–
            I am skilled in the use of chainsaws, fireline tools, portable pumps and hoses, CAFS, various hand and power tools, basic computer skills, GPS, compass and maps.
            —————————————————–

            Eric Marsh himself said…

            “I am skilled in GPS”.

            So you tell me…

            If an Interagency Hotshot Crew always had at LEAST FOUR handheld GPS Units with them in the field ( as one of the crewmembers has already testified )… then what are the ODDS that the Superintendent, who was always off by himself ‘scouting’, and whose favorite personal hobby was off-road boondock bike riding ( by himself ) and who has stated in his own RESUME’ that he was “skilled in GPS”…

            …would NOT have had either his own personal or a ‘company’ GPS unit with him in the field on June 30, 2013?

  11. Sonny Gilligan says

    Marcia Weary says

    July 24, 2013 at 3:57 pm
    Are the rock piles pictured in the videos scree from mining? Was the bowl created from mining debris?
    reply:
    No. these are natural.

  12. Sonny Gilligan says

    LZ says

    August 2, 2013 at 7:20 pm

    As I listened to this interview I couldn’t help but get angrier as it went on. As a wildland firefighter for many years now retired I can only tell you I would never trust this man’s judgement on an incident. I couldn’t believe his ill placed rationale for firefighters taking risks to save structures. It’s lives (including thier own) property, natural resources, in that order. I also couldn’t help counting the number of 10 Standards and 13 situations violated. I understand this is a sensitive situation and my heart grieves for those families, but we’ve got to get beyond protecting reputations and tell the truth.

    reply:
    Exactly on this one. I would think if I had anything at all to do with overseeing that fire I would be headed to Guatamala or at least keep my head down. Whew to take awards and present yourself as a great firefighter? I have met quite a few since the fire and the majority scratch their heads on this one. Well we even have one of those bosses running for Mayor–I hope he bosses Prescott better than he did Yarnell. Well perhaps he did all right on his end but when you lose 19 young souls no one even associated with the Yarnell Fire Need present themselves as a hero yet whatever the dead ones did they want the world, especially other firefighters the absolute truth as to why they died.

  13. Joy A. Collura says

    Another Hotshot says

    August 7, 2013 at 8:51 am
    http://www.investigativemedia.com/granite-mountain-hotshot-crew-founder-darrell-willis-describes-last-moments-of-crew-at-deployment-site/

    I felt considering he just had such a heavy loss that I will never assess that John Dougherty video of him but since day one when I heard “God had another plan…”
    It just stuck to me to stay simple and share that weekend and let the EXPERTS who SEEK purity PROPERLY assess that weekend not me…but until more PEOPLE and VEHICLES and ETC surface NOONE can say their BOOK or MOVIE or anything is the DEFINITE account not even if we did a book or movie—but you bet we would show more information than the SAIR offered.

  14. WantsToKnowTheTruth says

    **
    ** WHAT HAPPENS NOW WITH MCDONOUGH?

    It’s hard to say.

    What we KNOW now ( according to AZCENTRAL ) is that this third cancellation of his deposition has to do with the fact that his attorney, David Shapiro, tried to play HARDBALL with Arizona Forestry and say that Brendan now only allow just ONE SINGLE deposition to take place, regardless of how many court cases Arizona Forestry is involved with and how many lawyers involved with however many court cases actually want a piece of McDonough.

    What we do NOT know is where this ‘requirement’ is coming from.

    In other words… WHO is now actually setting this REQUIREMENT that there only be ONE SINGLE deposition… with no chance at a ‘followup’ interview?

    Is it Mr. Shapiro?, Brendan McDonough?, Brendan’s therapist? Even OTHER people?

    ALL of the above?

    The SECOND attempt to depose Brendan on February 26, 2015 is the one that was cancelled at the last moment with Brendan’s criminal defense attorney David Shapiro submitting a letter to Arizona Forestry from the therapist that has (supposedly) been treating Brendan for PTSD. ( Post Traumatic Stress Disorder ).

    That therapist was simply ‘running the show’ and saying that under no circumstances did he/she think having Brendan do this “get it off his chest thing” was going to be good for him.

    Obviously some negotiations took place and then this THIRD May 28, 2015 deposition date was set… apparently also with the ongoing assumption ( as agreed to before even the FIRST scheduled deposition ) that if a ‘followup’ deposition was deemed necessary that McDonough would be OK with that.

    Sometime before May 28, it looks like that ‘assumption’ about additional depositions ( if necessary ) got taken off the table by Mr. David Shapiro.

    But was this simply because Brendan’s THERAPIST doesn’t really want him to do this at all… much less more than once… so it is the THERAPIST who is still “running the show” and trying to control multiple valid court case calendars like he/she did back in February?

    Does Brendan really HAVE PTSD to the point where it should be allowed to be affecting all these court calendars for all these court cases like this?

    I suppose we will find out.

    As far as we know… the Arizona Forestry lawyers had to ( once again ) walk into global mediation today and sit directly across the table from the lawyers representing the plaintiffs in the ‘wrongful death’ lawsuits… and they ( the AZF lawyers ) STILL don’t know everything that Brendan knows.

    But the ‘wrongful death’ case court calendars are still ‘frozen’ until around the end of June… so Arizona Forestry has until then to still try and get Brendan in the room and finish ‘mediation’ with the ‘wrongful death’ plaintiffs.

    Something that came out this morning actually *might* be just a little more proof that Brendan’s PTSD really is affecting his decisions and/or his ability to fulfill some of his obligations.

    The Arizona State appointed Yarnell Hill Fire Memorial Site Board had its FIFTH official meeting just yesterday, and the Prescott Daily Courier published a synopsis of what went on at the meeting.

    Joanna Dodder Nellans ( the reporter ) notes that Brendan McDonough has been ABSENT from the ‘last several’ meetings of this board even though he was appointed to be on it by Arizona Speaker of the House and Brendan voluntarily accepted that appointment.

    Apparently.. .no REASON has been given ( publicly ) for his absence from these meetings and his inability to fulfill even THIS job that he volunteered to do.

    The Prescott Daily Courier
    Article Title: Subcommittee will lead design of hotshots memorials
    Published: Monday, 6/1/2015 6:00:00 AM by Joanna Dodder Nellans
    http://dcourier.com/main.asp?SectionID=1&SubSectionID=1086&ArticleID=145965

    From the article…
    ———————————————————————-
    PRESCOTT – It’s likely that the site where 19 of Prescott’s Granite Mountain Hotshots perished will remain simple, with only white crosses marking the spots where they died in the Yarnell Hill Wildfire in 2013, alongside a memorial sign and a low wall to define the area and offer simple seating for visitors.

    The crosses are important to the hotshots’ families, said Amanda Marsh, widow of Granite Mountain Hotshots Superintendent Eric Marsh and a member of the Yarnell Hill Memorial Site Board.

    The board agreed unanimously to the design concepts at its Friday meeting in Prescott after hearing a presentation from design subcommittee co-chair Mike King, a retired Prescott National Forest supervisor. The lone hotshot survivor who was acting as a lookout at another location, Brendan McDonough, is on the board but has not attended the last several meetings.
    ———————————————————————-

    There have only been FIVE meetings of this Yarnell Hill Memorial Site Board… so depending on whether “has not attended the last several meetings” means the last TWO or the last THREE meetings… it still means Brendan has only attended about HALF of the meeting of this Memorial Board to which he was appointed by the Arizona Speaker of the House.

    The most important VOTES that this Committee has had so far have been at the last two meetings… so apparently Brendan has missed all of these important VOTES regarding whether to purchase the land, how to get access to it, and what the Memorial will actually look like.

    ** STILL A CHANCE SOMEONE ELSE COULD ACQUIRE THE LAND

    The article has a SIDEBAR which appears to contain the answers to some additional questions about the upcoming action on the steps of the Yavapai Courthouse at 11:00 AM on June 30, 2015… the very morning of the second anniversary of the tragedy.

    This topic also appears to have come up at the meeting itself and was being openly discussed Jay Ream, deputy director of the Parks Division of the Arizona State Parks was (apparently) at this latest Board Meeting and was answering questions.

    There is still no mention of this small group of GM Hotshot Widows who originally said they intended on buying the land themselves and then limiting who could have access to the deployment site.

    But board member Lenora Bennett Nelson herself openly raised the question of what happens if someone else shows up the morning of June 30 and starts bidding for the land.

    The minimum ( appraised ) value of the land is $304,000, but it was once again openly ( and publicly ) acknowledged that this Yarnell Memorial Board could not possibly put in a bid any higher than the $500,000 that was appropriated by the Arizona State Legistlature to buy the land.

    If a competing bid is entered for just 1 dollar about $500,000… then the Yarnell Hill Memorial Board will NOT become the owners of the deployment site. Someone ELSE will.

    From the sidebar accompanying the article…
    ———————————————————————-
    Auction is last step for state park

    The Yarnell Hill Memorial Site Board also heard Friday about progress on buying 320 acres surrounding and including the site where the Granite Mountain Hotshots died.

    The land is state trust land that the Arizona Constitution requires to be auctioned. State officials will conduct the auction on the steps of the Yavapai County Courthouse in Prescott at 11 a.m. on June 30, the second anniversary of the hotshots’ deaths.

    All the sale preparations are complete, said Jay Ream, deputy director of the Parks Division of the Arizona State Parks. The site will become a state park. “All we have left is the actual auction,” he said.

    “I can’t imagine why, but what happens if someone else wants it too?” board member Lenora Bennett Nelson said.

    “We are prepared to bid…and we anticipate being the successful bidder,” Ream responded.

    The minimum bid is $304,000, the appraised value of the land. The Arizona Legislature set aside $500,000. The money will go to schools since they are the beneficiaries of the sale of that state trust land.
    ———————————————————————-

    ** STILL NO ACCESS RIGHTS FROM LANDOWNERS…

    The other bit of news in the article published today is that according to the minutes of the last meeting, a significant effort was supposed to have been made to try to get Rex Maughan ( the rancher ) and other landowners to agree to the minimal pass-through rights for there to be access to the deployment site from the end of Shrine Road and southwest to the deployment site.

    This alternate access route would be FAR simpler than the other 3+ mile cross-country steep hike across State land. It would also just take people past the existing in-town memorial at the intersection of Highway 89 and Shrine Road. People could then just go down to the end of Shrine Road ( to where the Youth Camp was ) and then have a relatively short hike over relatively FLAT ground to reach the deployment site.

    Anyway… the NEWS from yesterday’s meeting is that apparently NO PROGRESS has been made on getting ANYONE ( Rex Maughan and others ) to even consider giving the Arizona State Parks Department the minimal access rights needed to allow this simper way to get to the deployment site.

    • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

      Correction for above.

      The FIFTH official meeting of the Arizona State appointed Yarnell Hill Fire Memorial Site Board actually took place last Friday ( May 29, 2015 ) and not yesterday.

      This Arizona PUBLIC Board remains in violation of the Arizona Open Meetings laws by not publishing the minutes of their meetings in a timely fashion.

      The AGENDAS and the MINUTES for these meetings of this Arizona PUBLIC Board are supposed to appear at the following PUBLIC site…

      http://azstateparks.com/committees/Yarnell.html

      The minutes for any meeting of any Arizona PUBLIC Board are supposed to be posted within 72 hours following any official meeting of the Board… and that includes DRAFT minutes that won’t be approved until the NEXT meeting of the Board.

      The minutes from even their April 10, 2015 meeting have yet to be posted.

      That is approaching almost TWO MONTHS late, according to Arizona law.

    • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

      Additional Correction for above.

      The actual MINUTES for this PUBLIC Yarnell Hill Fire Memorial Site Board’s April 10 meeting have STILL not been published online, as required by Arizona Law.

      The only way we actually know what took place during that April 10, 2015 meeting of this PUBLIC Board is because PDC reported Joanna Dodder Nellans has been making a point of attending these meetings and then reporting about what went on there.

      She posted the following report on the April 10 meeting just four days after it was held.

      It is in THIS article where we learned that the Board was still trying to work out access rights with Rancher Rex Maughan ( and other landowners ) for that SIMPLER way for the public to reach the deployment site…

      The Prescott Daily Courier
      Article Title: Public will get to submit designs for Hotshots memorial
      Published: 4/14/2015 6:02:00 AM by Joanna Dodder Nellans
      http://dcourier.com/main.asp?SectionID=198&SubSectionID=1&ArticleID=144158

      From the article…
      ————————————————————————————-
      Second Possible Route

      A second possible route would involve only about a 1.5-mile hike with a minor elevation change, Palm said. It would start at the west end of Shrine Road in Yarnell.

      That route would need an easement through two areas of land owned by Rex Maughn, a millionaire with ranches covering hundreds of thousands of acres in Arizona. While Arizona Sen. Steve Pierce has been talking with Maughn about possible access to the site, they haven’t discussed this particular route, Palm said later. Pierce is a Prescott rancher who also serves on the board.

      It would be great to have both access routes, said Chuck Tidey, a board member and chair of the Yarnell Hill Recovery Group that has been leading the effort to restore unincorporated Yarnell after the wildfire torched 127 homes there.

      The route from Highway 89 along Shrine Road also would pass by the memorial that the community of Yarnell is building at the corner of 89 and Shrine, Tidey noted. And it would pass by the Shrine of St. Joseph, as well as “Carraro’s Grotto,” a whimsical path through boulders that the late Alessio Carraro labeled as animals and other shapes.
      ————————————————————————————-

      That was almost TWO MONTHS ago on April 10, 2015.

      There is no indication ( as of this morning, June 1, 2015 ) that Arizona Senator Steve Pierce has made any progress convincing Rancher Rex Maughn ( or any other Yarnell landowner ) to grant any access rights for this simpler, ‘alternate’ way for the public to visit the deployment site.

      • Bob Powers says

        Thanks for all the update on the Memorial.

        I was at the Rattle Snake Memorial on our trip to Northern California on the 20th of May. It was rewarding and peaceful to me as all Memorials should be it is a place of remembrance that all should have and Fire Fighters should visit to discuss and understand why the Fire Fighters Died to help with there store of knowledge about Safety and Fire.

        Its FS land on the Mendocino NF They dedicated it to the memorial and built the memorial to the men who died fighting the fire on Federal land.
        Why cant the state do the same? It is on State land where they died.

        I had not been to the site for almost 6 years but it was very peaceful and rewarding for me and I walked out to the crosses on a hiking trail and tied flowers to the Cross of my Father for memorial Day. My Father is Buried in the place of his birth in Tryon Oklahoma a long way from Idaho and I do not get there very often.

        The Memorial sits out in the middle of a canyon on the old original road that is mostly dirt now
        it can be accessed from the top or bottom off the new main road into the Forest.
        one of the First to have crosses after the South Canyon Fire. The FS for years fought the installation of Crosses on National Forest Land.

        The State of Arizona needs to take a long hard look at there Regulations and dedicate this land with out a auction it is there responsibility to treat it as such.

        If interested go to the Mendocino NF Rattle Snake Fire Fighter Memorial on Google
        Some Pictures and information, it is also listed on the Forest Map.

        • Joy A. Collura says

          reply to:
          The State of Arizona needs to take a long hard look at there Regulations and dedicate this land with out a auction it is there responsibility to treat it as such.

          From the hikers: AMEN BOB POWERS!
          exactly. another money market bs thing.

        • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

          Reply to Bob Powers post on June 1, 2015 at 4:02 pm

          >> Bob Powers wrote…
          >>
          >> Its FS land on the Mendocino NF They dedicated it to the
          >> memorial and built the memorial to the men who died fighting
          >> the fire on Federal land.
          >> Why cant the state do the same?
          >> It is on State land where they died.

          Well… technically… that bottom half of Section 9 of Township 10 North Range 05 West is Arizona State TRUST Land.

          There’s a subtle difference between it being just flat-out ‘State Land’ and ‘State TRUST Land’.

          It means that the State of Arizona is really just holding the land “in TRUST’ for someone else… and in THIS case that ‘someone else’ happens to be the Arizona Public School System. Whoever BUYS this ‘Trust’ land… the proceeds for the sale go to the Arizona Public School System.

          What this Yarnell Hill Memorial Site Board is about to do is…

          1. Take some ( or all ) the $500,000 the Arizona State Legislature gave it and purchase all 320 acres of that south half of Section 9, Township 10 North, Range 05 West.

          2. Minimum bid is $304,000. If there is NO ONE bidding against them on the morning of June 30, 2015… then that’s probably the ‘bid’ that will get the land purchased.

          3. Arizona Public School System will get the $304,000.

          4. The Yarnell Memorial Site Board will immediately hand the land over to the Arizona State Parks System, who have agreed to develop and maintain the memorial site.

          So the ‘money’ we are talking about here is truly ‘funny money’. It was granted by one Arizona entity ( The AZ Legislature ) to another ( The Arizona Yarnell Hill Memorial Site Board ) to be used to pay for a piece of Arizona State Trust Land. The money goes right into the Arizona State Public School System and then land goes right into the Arizona State Parks System.

          So when all was said and done… the Arizona State Legislature could have just transferred $304,000 from the AZ General Fund to the School System fund and then deeded the land to Arizona Parks.

          However… that would have violated the Arizona Constitution and would have denied the School System the opportunity to make as much as they possibly could from the sale of the land ( to highest bidder ) instead of just getting the $304,000 ‘fair-value’ appraisal amount.

          It would have taken a very special piece of legislation coming from the Arizona Legislature to short-circuit this process and just GIVE the land to Arizona State Parks, since this is all based on Constitutional requirements… but it could still be done.

          Matter of fact… I think if someone ( anyone ) shows up on the steps of the Yavapai Courthouse at 11:00 AM on the morning of June 30, 2015 and yells out a bid of $500,001 dollars ( and outbids the Memorial Board )… I think we WILL then see some pretty special piece of legislation appear along the lines of eminent domain which would negate the land sale and just foce the land to become part of the Arizona Parks and Recreation Division.

          Ross Perot already donated his own airplane to fly that bronze statue of the Wildland Firefighter down to Phoenix and then to Prescott for the memorial service back in 2013. Ross Perot has always had a ‘side interest’ in this event.

          What if Ross Perot himself feels like that group of widows really SHOULD be able to control access to the place where their husbands died?

          Ross Perot could just check under one of his couch cushions and hand them a check for $500,001, and the land is theirs.

          The Memorial Board ONLY has $500,000. This is publicly known.
          Anyone who has just 1 dollar more than that can own the land themselves at 11:00 AM on the morning of June 30, 2013.

          >> Bob Powers also said…
          >>
          >> I had not been to the site for almost 6 years but it was very
          >> peaceful and rewarding for me and I walked out to the crosses
          >> on a hiking trail and tied flowers to the Cross of my Father
          >> for memorial Day.

          I believe the Prescott Daily Courier article linked to above also points out that all of the OTHER fatality sites must be ‘hiked to’… so what is being planned for the Yarnell memorial site falls into alignment with that.

          The ‘hike’ to the Yarnell site might be longer, steeper tougher than the others… but tradition seems to already have been established. Some kind of ‘hike’ SHOULD be involved to reach such a place.

          I have no idea how ‘handicap access’ fits into the equation here… for either the Federally owned/maintained memorial sites or the State Park ones.

          I know that one of the primary reasons that they are almost REQUIRED to keep this new Granite Mountain ‘State Park’ very, very simple is that there is a point where they WOULD have to make sure it is complete accessible for the handicapped… and they are trying to stay BELOW that threshold because they haven’t been given the money to cover THOSE expenses.

          • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

            Crapola. DATE typo up above. Meant to say 2015 and not 2013.

            Paragraph above should have been…

            The Memorial Board ONLY has $500,000. This is publicly known.
            Anyone who has just 1 dollar more than that can own the land themselves at 11:00 AM on the morning of June 30, 2015.
            .

          • Bob Powers says

            Two things on access.
            Hand Crews normally do not die on Roads they are out in the brush on a mountain. Handicap access to trails is considered Wilderness travel and access is based on your ability to travel in the wild.

            The main spot where the memorial is for the Rattle snake fire is handy cap accessible and next to a Road. from that point you can see the crosses across the canyon and you can drive to the top to access a trail the parking spot also has a restroom.

            The same with South Canyon there is a memorial site at the bottom of the mountain accessible by road you have to climb the mountain to see the crosses scattered along a trail.

            There is no regulation to make wild areas accessible to Handicapped.
            people. You are at your own risk in a wild land, forest, park, etc. The Trails are not built for wheel chairs however a ATV can be used in many areas and the Handicap use them.

            • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

              Obviously whatever kind of ‘trail’ they come up with needs to be ATV accessible for emergencies… but whether any part of the memorial needs to be ADA ( Americans with Disabilities Act ) compliant remains to be seen.

              Here is where Arizona State Representative Karn Fann said it’s going to come down to a matter of SCOPE…

              From the minutes of the Memorial Board’s meeting on
              February 27, 2015.

              Arizona State Representative Karen Fann expresses concern about the DESIGN o fthe memorial and that if it gets too elaborate they may start running into ADA ( Americans with Disabilities Act ) issues and requirements…

              ———————————————————
              Ms. Black asked if we’ve had ideas of our own yet on design and she understands the chairman of that committee is not present but does anyone have some ideas of what they’d like to see happen in the near future. We understand the access would be part of it, but has there been any ideas on how we might like to solicit those design ideas and make a determination on where we’ll go.

              Representative Fann stated everyone is still trying to figure out what they want to see but the vast majority states they want to leave it simple and raw.

              We need to be careful on SCOPE because if we get too far off the beaten track we could come up with something that could require ADA and restrooms, etc. and these are issues that will need to be considered.
              ———————————————————

              The ‘restroom’ issue was actually also raised ( twice ) during the previous Board meeting on January 6, 2015…

              ———————————————————
              4. Maintenance and preservation of the Yarnell Hill Memorial Site – Discussion of agency or group responsible for the maintenance and preservation of the site, funding if any needed for the perpetual upkeep, equipment, staffing and whether to form a sub-committee.

              Chairman Martyn stated that Yavapai County has graciously agreed to help with the maintenance of whatever direction the committee decides to go. Supervisor Simmons will be a big help with this. Other things that may need to be addressed is the possibility of having a restroom on the site. He asked for volunteers to sit on this committee and Mr. Fraijo volunteered. Mr. Martyn asked if Supervisor Simmons would chair this committee and he agreed.
              ————————————————————

              Later in the same meeting is when Mrs. Pfingston ( the mother of Andrew Ashcraft ) asked if she would serve on the design subcommittee. She said she would…and to this day she is the ONLY Granite Mountain family member on the committee that is actually deciding what the memorial should look like.

              ————————————————————
              Mr. Martyn asked if Mrs. Pfingston would like to be on sub-committee for the memorial and she stated she would love to participate.

              Mrs. Pfingston stated she would like it to be a hiking trail; she does not want to see cars back there if at all possible. Obviously it would have to be accessible by ATVs for emergencies. She has spoken to other hot shot crews that want to go out to help maintain the area. There’s a wildfire academy that could use the area for training. She would like to see a restroom at the site and there’s a great example of a biodegradable, clean, self-sufficient restroom at Highland Center in Prescott that would be great. Chairman Martyn reminded everyone that the committee would decide on all matters relating to the memorial site.
              ————————————————————

        • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

          Reply to Bob Powers post on June 1, 2015 at 4:02 pm

          >> Bob Powers wrote…
          >>
          >> The ( Rattle Snake ) Memorial sits out in the middle of a canyon
          >> on the old original road that is mostly dirt now
          >> It can be accessed from the top or bottom off the new main
          >> road into the Forest.
          >> One of the First to have crosses after the South Canyon Fire.
          >> The FS for years fought the installation of Crosses on
          >> National Forest Land.

          I imagine so, yes. The CROSS is a religious symbol associated with some pretty specific belief systems ( most of them Christian based ) and the Federal Government obviously has to be careful with stuff like that.

          Even the Arlington National Cemetery has 63 official religious symbols that can be ‘chosen’ by family members, including the official symbols for the WICCAN religion and even the official symbols for registered ATHEISTS.

          http://www.cem.va.gov/cem/docs/emblems.pdf

          —————————————————————-
          AVAILABLE EMBLEMS OF BELIEF FOR PLACEMENT
          ON GOVERNMENT HEADSTONES AND MARKERS

          From the 61 ( SIXTY ONE ) available headstone markers…

          (10) AARONIC
          (15) BAHAI
          (16) ATHEIST
          (18) HINDU
          (21) SUFISM ( REORIENTED )
          (22) TENRIKYO
          (23) SEICHO-NO-IE
          (28) ECKANKAR
          (35) SOKA GAKKAI
          (36) SIKH ( KHANDA )
          (37) WICCA
          ——————————————————————-

          According to the article… the Granite Mountain Memorial Design Subcommittee is now reporting they basically want to just ‘go with’ the ‘simple white crosses’ idea.

          I certainly hope that means they have actually already checked with ALL of the family members of the deceased before making this PUBLIC announcement of a design choice.

          There’s never been a complete breakout on the religious orientation or beliefs of ALL of the Granite Mountain Hotshots… and even for the ones that might not have had any particular preference I don’t think the families would make a big deal about a simple white cross marking the place where their loved one died…

          …but if this Memorial Subcommittee didn’t take the time to VERIFY that… well… then I don’t know what to say. That would be a screw-up.

          And speaking of ‘marking the place’… this announcement coming out of the design subcommittee verifies that they actually will, in the end, need to be ACCURATE with this and make sure even the simple white crosses are in the exact right place(s).

          I’m sure they will have to use the original YCSO Police detectives PHARO-3D images taken at the deployment site at first light on July 1, 2013.

          That hand-drawn ‘chart’ at the back of the SAIR report showing the fire shelters is probably accurate with regards to relative postioning of each of the shelters and were each body was found… but it’s pretty obvious that drawinig is NOT to SCALE.

          Based on the photos that have been released… the shelters were not nearly as close together or as ‘tightly grouped’ as that drawing in the SAIT would have people believe.

          The installation of the white crosses will have to show where all of the bodies REALLY were.

          >> Bob Powers also wrote…
          >>
          >> The State of Arizona needs to take a long hard look at there
          >> Regulations and dedicate this land with out a auction it is
          >> there responsibility to treat it as such.

          Actually… ‘Regulation’ isn’t quite the right word.

          It’s a little more than that.

          This whole ‘Arizona State Trust Land’ thing is actually codified in the Arizona CONSTITUTION… which makes ‘turning the knobs’ on some legislation to get around it that much harder.

          It can be done… be it will take a pretty serious piece of ’eminent domain’ legislation coming out of the Arizona Legislature and Senate and then off the Governor’s desk in order to just MOVE a piece of official ‘State Trust Land’ over to the State Parks Department.

          Again… it can be done… but not easily.

          • Bob Powers says

            While I know you are a stickler for specifics I will add my 2 cents here

            First State Trust lands have in the past been set-aside as Parks, Recreation areas and even logged for the timber. They can be sold or retained for other uses like grazing allotments where the State charges for there use.
            So Yes the State can set-aside the section the Crew died on if they so chose.

            Also Crosses are not a religious statement but a simple marker.
            The cemetery is the place for Religious symbolism.

            Also pin point accuracy is not the absolute necessity for the markers as close as possible will surface I doubt that the investigation was GPS accurate but who knows? They may have pinpointed each location.
            My point is it dose not mater it is the symbolism that counts with the Families. Close as possible will work for the site.

            • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

              Reply to Bob Powers post on June 1, 2015 at 9:20 pm

              >> Bob Powers said…
              >>
              >> While I know you are a stickler for specifics I will
              >> add my 2 cents here
              >>
              >> First State Trust lands have in the past been set-aside
              >> as Parks, Recreation areas and even logged for the
              >> timber. They can be sold or retained for other uses
              >> like grazing allotments where the State charges for
              >> there use.
              >> So Yes the State can set-aside the section the Crew
              >> died on if they so chose.

              I believe you.

              I haven’t fully researched the process by which a piece of Arizona State Trust Land can pass out of the ‘Trust’ part without the designated beneficiary getting justly compensated… but yes… we are talking about the government here. They can do what they want.

              If it was EASY to do, however, I would then wonder why they didn’t just go ahead and do that and why there is even going to be this stupid auction on the steps of the Yavapai County Courthose at 11:00 AM on the morning of the second anniversary of the tragedy ( June 30, 2015 ).

              I’m actually of the opinion that if there really is ANY way they can avoid having to have this public action… they should do that ( as Gary Olson would say ) “most ricki tick”.

              If there is ANY chance someone else might actually outbid the State or Arizona and become the owner of that deployment site… they should make SURE it doesn’t happen BEFORE it happens.

              That will just be a total joke and/or a nightmare if someone OTHER than the State of Arizona actually gets control of that piece of land.. for whatever reason(s).

              >> Bob Powers also said…
              >>
              >> Also Crosses are not a religious statement but a
              >> simple marker.
              >> The cemetery is the place for Religious symbolism.

              What you say is true…and sometimes even for cemeteries.

              Example: At the military graves near Normandy Beach… ALL of the graves have white ( marble ) CROSSES… but if the soldier was JEWISH then there is also a “Star of David” on the Cross itself.

              However… I certainly think that if any Granite Mountain family member has any OBJECTION to there being what could be construed as a “Christian Cross” marking their loved one’s place of death… it would be arrogant and rude for the planners of the memorial to not take their concerns into consideration and “do something else”.

              >> Bob Powers also said…
              >>
              >> Also pin point accuracy is not the absolute necessity
              >> for the markers as close as possible will surface

              In this case… the PHARO-3D images that are KNOWN to exist makes the “as close as possible” goal not only completely attainable but literally “exactly correct”.

              >> I doubt that the investigation was GPS accurate but
              >> who knows? They may have pinpointed each location

              I guess you’ve never seen any PHARO 3D images.

              If they want to put the crosses EXACTLY where every single one of those bodies was at dawn on Jule 1, 2013… it will be easily done.

              >> Bob Powers also said…
              >>
              >> My point is it dose not mater it is the symbolism that
              >> counts with the Families. Close as possible will work
              >> for the site.

              I think it DOES matter… and not just because ( in this case ) there is no excuse for it not to be 100 percent accurate.

              The only reason I can think of for it to not be 100 percent accurate is if someone actually takes a look at what the REALITY might turn out to be and decides that with all the hype about how “they all died together”… they then decide to EDIT the actual cross locations to more closely match what THEY think the families ( and the public ) would like to see.

              What I mean is… unless they dedicate themselves to accuracy ( which the PHARO 3D images can easily provide ).. they may decide that if one group of shelters ends up looking to be a little “off by itself”… they will willy-nilly MOVE that grouping close to the others so it “looks better” and doesn’t ‘upset the families’.

              • Bob Powers says

                Again I will say pin point accuracy is Great how ever it is not a necessity to be at the Head –Feet or center of body with in reasonable proximity is OK. I guess I differ with you on a Cross
                They have been used for centuries as a Marker and I have never considered them to be a CHRISTEN MARKER only a noted place where someone died or is Buried. The persons denomination, beliefs or non beliefs do not really matter or if they are atheists they should not have a marker at all. The whole concept here is to designate location of each individual not there differences or beliefs. All are Equal and all died together at what ever location with in close proximity.

                The fence enclosure already identifies the area which is oh ya on State Land.

                When states were formed they were given sections of land in each township and range in the west I have worked with these sections on the National Forest for my entire carrier.
                Normally Sections 16 and 36 although some adjusting and trading has occurred or the state has inherited the land thru Taxes etc.
                The parcels are managed for the School funding. could show you many, many sections which have never been sold sense Statehood many of those out in the middle of no where like the Section of State lands in Yarnell. These lands are managed by the States for many different uses and if sold the funds go to the State school system.
                State Trust Lands exist in all the western States. State Parks Are Built On Them. Cattle Graze on them. The FS and BLM suppress fires on them under Co-op agreements. with in there boundaries.
                In the Sawtooth National Recreation area I can show you a piece of State Trust land that a entire Fish Hatchery and Residences and Office was built for The State Fish and Game.
                As you have said the State is just trading dollars Give and get I it back from one pocket to the other.
                They could just as well designate the Memorial area and assign it to the State Parks and Recreation for upkeep.

                • Marti Reed says

                  Just spent the day researching the whole Arizona State Trust Land and the Arizona State Parks realities.

                  Interesting stuff.

                  It is NOT POSSIBLE to “just transfer” land from Arizona State Trust Land to anything or anybody, including Arizona State Parks.

                  Arizona State Trust Land does not belong to the State of Arizona. It belongs to the Trust, and the State only manages it.

                  It MUST be either SOLD or LEASED, and the beneficiaries MUST BE COMPENSATED for the sale or use of the land at the highest market value.

                  And not only does changing any of this require amending the Constitution of the State of Arizona, but it also requires an Act of Congress to amend the originating 1910 Enabling Act.

                  A NUMBER of attempts have been made over the past 10 years or so to “reform” the Arizona State Trust Land management system (because EVERYBODY finds is highly problematic in one way or another), and they’ve ALL gone down in flames.

                  So, yes, handing half a million dollars to the Memorial Board to purchase it and, in turn, hand it off to Arizona State Parks (an entity which has never been seriously supported or funded, except during Bruce Babbitt’s eight years as Governor) and has all but been starved out of functional existence since 2006) is about the ONLY way to transfer that land out of State Trust use and ownership and into some other kind of use.

                  This whole day’s worth of research leaves me wondering, however, if, since the land was, apparently, most likely used for grazing leasing (they HAD to have been doing something “lucrative” with it or I’m sure they would have unloaded it a long time ago), who had those grazing leases? And what might THAT possibly have to do with anything?

                  • Bob Powers says

                    You did a lot of research there I seem to have missed the legality of State Trust Lands.
                    You are right most are leased as range land for Grazing allotments but most are not big money makers unless bidders are vying for great grass allotments and even then the bids are not large amounts of money.
                    From the looks of Yarnell brush fields I doubt the allotments could hold many Cattle based on actual feed per Acer so probably not any where near LUCRATIVE . The Value set by the State some times is to much for Range Land and people just do not buy or bid on the land.
                    Some local Ranchers Bid and are the only bidder on the Range Allotments so the bids are low for Leases.
                    some Section allotments 640 Ac. can go for $100 a Year with only 1 local Rancher bidding. The income goes to the School Fund.

                    • Marti Reed says

                      Thanks, Bob. Makes sense.

                      Not one to leave any stone unturned when I’m really curious about something, I did discover this morning that there WAS a grazing lease on this piece of Arizona State Trust Land.

                      It’s noted in the Minutes of the Arizona State Parks Board of Directors Meeting on April 16, 2014, where they’re discussing the Memorial.

                      http://azstateparks.com/board/downloads/minutes/2014/ASPB_MINUTES_04-16-14.pdf

                      From Page 5:

                      “4. Yarnell Hill Memorial – staff briefing on the components of the bill and its affects
                      on Arizona State Parks

                      Please see the presentation posted online at azparks.com/board Presentation 04/16/14.

                      Mr. Ream presented a map of the proposed area for the Yarnell Hill Memorial site. State
                      Land Trust has identified 240 acres valued at about $1,000 per acre and the Yarnell Hill

                      Memorial Site Board will need to make the recommendation to purchase the land. At that
                      time the State Land Commissioner will need to make that land available for auction. Mr.
                      Ream advised that an adjacent landowner does not want a memorial put on the land as
                      the only access point to the site passes directly through his land. Currently there is a
                      grazing lease on the land and the committee may be met with some difficulty throughout
                      the process. The other access points are north of Yarnell and a good bit out of the way.

                      Director Martyn advised the Committee that this bill does have the potential of being
                      designated as an Arizona State Park officially and they will then have to play an active
                      role in the management of the natural resources.”

                      I’m guessing, at this point, the logical holder of that grazing lease would be Maughan. But I’m not sure.

                      Maughan is really opposed to this Memorial. So……….I wouldn’t be surprised if WTKTT’s speculation might actually come true and Maughan showed up at that little auction on the steps of the Yavapai County Courthouse on June 30.

                    • Marti Reed says

                      PS. Another REALLY interesting and relevant thing I found on this Google hunt is a 2005 “Oral history interview with Senator John Hays” by the Northern Arizona University Ecological Oral Histories Course.

                      I just read the transcript, but there is a video attached, and I just downloaded that and will watch it. It may help make more sense of the locations Hays is describing.

                      http://archive.library.nau.edu/cdm/ref/collection/cpa/id/63397

                      He even describes the 1960’s wildfire that occurred, leading to the building of the fire-breaks we have been discussing.

                      He talks a lot about their ranching history and the kind of ranching, grazing, land management, prescription burning, etc that was going on in the Yarnell/Peeples Valley/Weaver Mountains area.

                      The Hays family was the original owner of the ranch that the Maughan family bought a chunk of.

                      “Description CONTENT: In this oral history Senator Hays talks about the environmental history of the Peeples Valley region and his family’s relationship to the land. Topics also covered include cattle ranching and sheep herding, grasslands, fire control, invasive plants, water and weather. BIOGRAPHICAL HISTORY: The Ecological Oral Histories Course recorded the ecological impact and change from those who have lived and worked for years on the Colorado Plateau. The project was funded by an Environmental Research, Development, and Education for the New Economy (ERDENE) grant and administered by the Ecological Monitoring & Assessment Program and Foundation at Northern Arizona University.”

                    • Marti Reed says

                      And finally, I want to post (for the record) the April 1, 2014 State Land Department “Order Authorizing Additional Access With Regard to Closing Order No. 006-2013/2014,” the order that closed the area.

                      It states that:

                      “It has been determined to be in the best interest of the Trust to grant additional access for litigation purposes to the State’s attorneys, witnesses, experts and claimants, and potential claimants and their attorneys, witnesses and experts.

                      IT IS ORDERED effective at 8:00 o’clock a.m. on the date of this Order, that access is now granted to the State’s attorneys, witnesses, experts and claimants, and their attorneys, witnesses and experts with the advance permission of the State Attorney General’s Office.”

                      The original July 12, 2013 order, a copy of which is attached to this file and addressed to Rex and Ruth Maughan, says:

                      “IT IS ORDERED that effective at 8:00 o’clock a.m. on the date of this Order, the subject land is closed to any and all access and use, except to the families of the fallen, those public safety officials charged with inverstigating the fire and protecting the public and rights of entry to be issued for official purposes. No applications will be accepted for surface and subsurface leases, permits, sales, minerals, oil and gas exploration and right-of-way applications, until further Order of the State Land Commissioner.”

                      So I don’t know where that closure left the holder of the grazing lease (which, given this order copy addressed to the Maughans, could indicate they might have held that lease). It doesn’t say anything about that.

                      But if it DID exclude the holder of that lease from entering that land, I wouldn’t be surprised if that entity might have been a bit more than ticked off about it.

                      http://azstateparks.com/committees/downloads/Yarnell_Land_Closing_Orders.pdf

                    • says

                      Oh, and another PS.

                      I case anybody thinks that land might not be worth the $501K that it would take to outbid the state, I’ve seen 20-acre parcels around Yarnell for sale for as much as $200k.

                      So that little piece of territory itself might not (at the going current market value) be worth $501K, but it could EASILY be worth it for someone like Maughan, in the long scheme of things, all things considered.

    • The Truth Will Always Remain Elusive says

      1. If someone else purchases the land they will have no access to it., UNLESS it is an adjoining landowner. But, THAT scenario, would piss off a gazillion people so I don’t think they’d ever do it.

      2. The reason Brendan may not have been attending the last few meetings, perhaps, is that due to the current controversy about the ‘rumored argument’, he and Amanda Marsh may not want to be in the same room together.

      3. Which came first, the chicken or the egg? Did Shapiro’s ‘one deposition’ stand come as a response to the other ‘global mediation’ attorneys wanting to get in on this one, and then ADF balking, or did he make the stand previous to any of that, and THEN the ‘global mediation’ attorneys wanted to crash this party thinking they might not get another chance?

      • Joy A. Collura says

        reply to:
        1. If someone else purchases the land they will have no access to it., UNLESS it is an adjoining landowner. But, THAT scenario, would piss off a gazillion people so I don’t think they’d ever do it.

        my reply: how interesting it would be if the tragedies of yesteryears that laid upon the Weavers long before this tragedy and the Apaches or Navajo tribal leaders took serious to the gps coordinates they had received by the desert walker the importance to that terrain to them as well as gathering those important relics that lay up there that belongs to them and the Mormons and they purchase the land that once was already theirs. Many people will never know the truth to that tragedy either just like this one more than likely. Yet you may find an early 1900’s Mormon bible in certain areas or certain relics but nothing to piece together correctly that tragedy because the names flowing public were not the names to be looking at…just like this fire…we discuss Donut a lot or some of us label like myself Tarr/Frisby heroes but the reality the names not spoken (yet) are the ones who hold the key to the answers and deeper clarity to this fire, I mean how come we discuss Blue Ridge when homeowners have more said to seen others including Central Yavapai in that area and yet we do not hear too much on them or even the incident commandment folks. It is too hot WWTKTT yet we are looking into a pilot to fly over area and someone else offered to go up but I am not. I am not getting pulled into any horseshit. I tell them the current need on IM and they can decide to meet it or not. We are trying to get out of the heat. So piercing that sun today. Later I will attend the livestock and poultry/pea fowls…too hot. Sonny is ill. I am going to skim comments and we will go to that link and check map for you FINALLY.

        • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

          Reply to Joy A. Collura post on June 1, 2015 at 4:13 pm

          >> Joy A. Collura said…
          >>
          >> Sonny is ill. I am going to skim comments and we will go
          >> to that link and check map for you FINALLY.

          Super. Thank you, Joy.

          To repeat… it is NOT nearly as important to see a photograph of that infamous ‘WARNING: EXPLOSIVES’ sign as it is to just simply have someone verify exactly where it IS out there on that Jeep Trail.

          All you have to do is simply click on the following link and tell me if the ‘red balloon’ marker that should appear on the resulting Google satellite image is where that EXPLOSIVES SIGN really is…

          https://www.google.com/maps/place/34%C2%B013%2759.8%22N+112%C2%B047%2714.2%22W/@34.233286,-112.787277,17z/data=!3m1!1e3

          • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

            UPDATE: Joy… scratch my comment just above. I didn’t scroll down far enough a few moments ago to realize that you have ALREADY clicked that link and provided answers in the following message down below…

            http://www.investigativemedia.com/yarnell-hill-fire-chapter-xiv/#comment-298014

            So Thank you! ( To you AND Sonny ).

            So that ‘red tear drop’ marker on that satellite map is, in fact, pretty close to where this infamous EXPLOSIVES sign is.

            I think this can be considered verification that the dozer ( with Blue Ridge Hotshot Cory Ball onboard ) really did make it all the way to the edge of the cold black there at around 11:30 AM on the morning of June 30, 2013.

            There is testimony that the ‘turnaround point’ was the EXPLOSIVES sign… and it wasn’t because anyone thought they might get blown up. It was simply because that is the point where that Yavapai County dozer with the 12 foot fixed blad couldn’t make it any farther up the slope, and turned around and went back to old-grader.

            But according to both Arizona Forestry and ADOSH fire progression maps… that means the dozer WAS able to clear a path all the way to the edge of the ‘black’ there near the toe of that slope.

            And this work was completed circa 11:30 AM, just 5 minutes before Blue Ridge Superintendent Brian Frisby and BR Captain Trueheart Brown would even begin their 30 minute long face-to-face meeting with Eric Marsh and Jesse Steed.

            So the only mystery now is… if they actually did have a complete ‘dozer line’ cut all the way from the black on the western ridge to the Sesame Clearing area to the east ( where all the vehicles were parked ) by 11:30 AM…

            …then what ELSE was Granite Mountain doing for the rest of the afternoon… and WHY was it not completed 4 hours later, circa 3:30 PM?

            As far as we know… the PLAN in the morning was to have some ‘dozer line’ stretching across that valley that COULD be ‘burned off’ later on Sunday afternoon when the winds died down.

            In the morning… apparently no one in fire command at Yarnell believed the fire would be threatening Yarnell or Glen Illah THAT DAY.

            Their PLAN was to try and get a burnout in later that evening in order to provide protection for Yarnell the following day ( July 1, 2013 ).

            Well… it looks very much now like they had already gotten what they wanted by 11:30 AM. That’s the moment the dozer ‘connectec up’ the pushed dozer line to the cold black to the west right around that EXPLOSIVES sign.

            Of course… just an hour later Bravo 3 ( Warbis and Lenmark ) showed up to relieve Rory Collins as Air Attack and they could see right away that the fire was going to go into Yarnell THAT day… during THAT burn cycle… but why THAT knowledge was not fully communicated to ALL the people that needed to know it is still another story altogether of the ‘missed opportunities to successfully communicate’ that fateful day.

            • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

              Correction… left the digit ‘2’ out up above.

              Meant to type ’25 minutes’ instead of ‘5 minutes’.

              According to the Blue Ridge GPS Tracking data.. the actual face-to-face between Frisby/Brown and Marsh/Steed took place from 11:55 AM to 12:25 PM.

              So the paragraph above should have read like this…

              “And this work was completed circa 11:30 AM, just 25 minutes before Blue Ridge Superintendent Brian Frisby and BR Captain Trueheart Brown would even begin their 30 minute long face-to-face meeting with Eric Marsh and Jesse Steed.”

              • Bob Powers says

                Again you are missing the Point.

                What was GM doing after the Tractor line was in.

                They were assigned to connect Hand Line to the Tractor line along the Black edge of the Fire with and from a anchor point.

                The Fire changed the burn out plan or the fire was expected to back into the tractor line and it would stop it. They did not have a bad plan the weather just changed every thing.

                • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

                  Bob Powers says
                  Reply to Bob Powers post
                  on June 2, 2015 at 7:00 am

                  >> Bob Powers said…
                  >>
                  >> Again you are missing the Point.

                  No. I think it’s the other way around. Read on.

                  >> Bob Powers also said…
                  >>
                  >> What was GM doing after the Tractor line was in.
                  >>
                  >> They were assigned to connect Hand Line
                  >> to the Tractor line along the Black edge of
                  >> the Fire with and from a anchor point.

                  Exactly. Where I think YOU are ‘missing the point’ is that according to existing evidence and testimony… then that ‘plan’ was ALREADY accomplished right around 11:30 AM and the minute that dozer arrived at the EXPLOSIVES sign and now had fully improved dozer line connected all the was from the BLACK in the WEST to the Sesame Clearing in the EAST.

                  No one seemed to think this ‘dozer line’, in and unto itself, represented any real protection for the town of Yarnell. It was only being done with the idea that later that evening ( Sunday evening ) they *might* be able to ‘burn it off’ and create a better firebreak.

                  As for what Granite Mountain was really doing, then, from 11:30 AM onwards is, I think, where the real mystery lies.

                  I’m not sure it could be called ‘line construction’, for all intents and purposes. More like just what the DOC crew was doing in that area the day before and trying to just “cold mop” ( or California Cold Trace ) on that area around the anchor point.

                  What I’m still not seeing myself is that if there was now full dozer line connected all the way from the Sesame Clearing out to the BLACK by 11:30 AM… then what purpose would any similar ADDITIONAL line have been accomplishing south of that and more towards the two-track the GM walked up on?

                  Whatever THAT reasoning may have been has never been made clear in the evidence record.

                  Even Brendan was never actually ASKED about this.

                  Even though he told ADOSH several times that for the 3 hours in which he was on his lookout mound ( from approx 12:30 PM to 3:30 PM ) and that he could clearly see them… he was never asked, nor did he ever explain, exactly WHAT they were trying to accomplish… or WHY it needed more than another HOUR circa 3:30 PM after having had upwards of SIX hours ( 9:30 AM to 3:30 PM ) to accomplish this mysterious task.

                  I’m perfectly willing to believe they THOUGHT it was important to “tie something into something else” up there… but we still don’t know for sure EXACTLY which two POINTS we are talking about…

                  – or why GM couldn’t accomplish the task in time.
                  – or why Marsh refused to let Blue Ridge even help with the task and just let them stand around doing nothing.

                  • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

                    I guess this is where I am confused…

                    If we KNOW now that the DOZER had actually completed a fully improved dozer push all the way from the Sesame Clearing area out west to the BLACK itself…

                    …then was Granite Mountain trying to work their way NORTH around the edge of the existing black to “tie in” to that existing point where the DOZER had ‘met the black’ circa 11:30 AM…

                    …or was Granite Mountain building line more DUE EAST from the anchor point and trying to just cover that estimated 1900 feet and “tie in” to that OTHER two-track which heads SOUTH away from the old-grader.

                    That OTHER two-track leading SOUTH away from the old-grader ( the one GM actually used to walk up on that morning ) had been ‘improved’ by the DOZER as well… but only to about the toe of the western ridge slope.

                    If it’s the latter… then what were they planning on doing with that huge patch of unburned fuel that was going to be left between that southerly “tie in” point and the improved Jeep Trail that leads northwest away from the old-grader?

                    Were they just going to “light that up” as part of the burnoff… if/when the plan ever made it to that point?

                    I still think the exact details on all of this ‘work’ matters since whatever they were doing ( and refusing Blue Ridge’s help to complete ) is what actually kept them stuck up there for longer than they should have been that day… and is what eventually led to the TIME CRUNCH and the resulting poor decision making that got them all killed.

                    • Bob Powers says

                      The Hand line to tie into the dozer line is in fire terms SOP. To insure no hot spots rekindle at the black edge that is standard especially after the escape on Saturday.

                      The burn out was the plan you do not leave that much unburned fuel to run at a tractor line or any line. The burn out had to be at the right time and weather conditions I do not believe the IC and others thought the fire would change directions and that was their plan.

                      The crew was and I have said this over and over perfectly safe to stay next to the Black and retreat to the black they could have stayed there all day and night that had nothing to do with them being killed what caused that was moving out of the Black or away from it.

                      There was no time crunch as long as they worked and stayed close to the Black.
                      Poor decision making was pure and simple not following the 10 and 18.

                      Simple Fire Fighting 101— with or with out details that is simply how it is done—Connect point A to point B— BUILD LINE—Control Fire. The main goal of every wild fire.

                    • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

                      Reply to Bob Powers post on
                      June 2, 2015 at 9:01 am

                      >> Bob Powers said…
                      >>
                      >> The Hand line to tie into the dozer
                      >> line is in fire terms SOP.

                      Yes. I know… but you’re still not answering my question.

                      WHICH DOZER LINE?

                      Was Granite Mountain spending all that energy and spending all that time trying to “tie in” to that dozer line that we now know ended at the EXPLOSIVES sign and right there at the edge of the existing black…

                      …or were they trying to head more EAST down that drainage and “tie in” to that also-improved two-track that heads SOUTH from the old-grader? That’s the point that was only 1900 feet from the edge of the existing black.

                      In all honesty… these are just RHETORICAL questions. I do not EXPECT you to have the answers since the answers don’t even seem to be in the evidence record.

                      I’m just trying to make sure you understand what I’m wondering about.

                      WHICH DOZER LINE were they trying to “tie in” to, WHERE, and WHY was it taking so long and WHY were they refusing available help ( Blue Ridge ).

                      >> Bob Powers wrote…
                      >>
                      >> The burn out had to be at the right
                      >> time and weather conditions I do
                      >> not believe the IC and others thought
                      >> the fire would change directions and
                      >> that was their plan.

                      Copy that.. and that poor assumption on their part might be exactly what Eric Marsh was talking about when he told Jesse Steed “I could just feel this comin’, ya know”.

                      It simply remains a mystery why Marsh and Steed and Granite Mountain were ‘sticking with this plan’ when it really wasn’t going to work.

                      Even Air Attack Bravo 3 looked down at 12:30 PM and knew that ‘plan’ wasn’t making any difference… and wasn’t going to that day.

                      >> Bob Powers also said…
                      >>
                      >> Simple Fire Fighting 101— with or
                      >> with out details that is simply how
                      >> it is done—Connect point A to
                      >> point B— BUILD LINE—Control Fire.
                      >> The main goal of every wild fire.

                      I understand.

                      But in this particular case… I am simply still wondering EXACTLY what the “points” were… what was taking so long, and why they refused help in getting the work done.

                      None of THOSE questions have ever really been properly addressed.

                    • Bob Powers says

                      OK again from the anchor point on the south end of the fire hand line to the North until they hit the Tractor line that tied into the black at the explosive sign.

                      Why they did not take help from BR hell I don’t know they thought they could get the assignment done them self’s. Pride, didn’t think they needed help. We may never know why they made that decision.

                      My opinion 2 Crews on that piece of line would have been running over each other. The Division in my opinion was really only Sector size there are 2 to 3 Sectors in a Division or roughly 3 miles and that is just ruff estimates.

                      To the point that Steed said they had about an hour to finish their assignment. that says they did quite a bit of line in roughly 5 hours.

                    • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

                      Reply to Bob Powers post on
                      June 2, 2015 at 11:37 am

                      >> Bob Powers also said…
                      >>
                      >> OK again from the anchor point on
                      >> the south end of the fire hand line
                      >> to the North until they hit the
                      >> Tractor line that tied into the black
                      >> at the explosive sign.

                      Copy that. Thank you. While there still doesn’t seem to be a definitive piece of evidence which confirms that is what GM was actually trying to do… I tend to agree that this seems more likely. They were probably working their way AROUND the edge of the existing black, with direct attack, and just doing the California Cold Trail thing towards the north in the hopes of meeting that dozer line at that EXPLOSIVES sign.

                      >> Bob Powers also said…
                      >>
                      >> Why they did not take help from BR
                      >> hell I don’t know they thought they
                      >> could get the assignment done
                      >> them self’s. Pride, didn’t think they
                      >> needed help. We may never know
                      >> why they made that decision.

                      Maybe Brendan knows.

                      He was still ‘engaged’ at the time when Blue Ridge Superintendent Brian Frisby supposedly made the offer to come up there and help but Eric Marsh said NO and refused their help.

                      >> Bob Powers also said…
                      >>
                      >> My opinion 2 Crews on that piece of
                      >> line would have been running over
                      >> each other.

                      Maybe so… but we now know that the dozer reached the EXPLOSIVES sign around 11:30 AM, and then turned around and went back towards the old-grader.

                      At that point.. the two-track was improved all the way from the Sesame Clearing out to the EXPLOSIVES sign.

                      From a pure “Let’s get this DONE” standpoint… Blue Rdige ( Crew ) could have started line work from where the dozer stopped working SOUTH towards the anchor point… and if Granite Mountain had continued coming NORTH from the anchor point… the 2 Hotshot teams would have met in the middle and the whole PLAN would have been completed with plenty of time for BOTH sets of Hotshots to just hike back EAST to the Sesame Clearing area and back to their vehicles.

                      It’s not like something else would NOT have gotten done that day if they had just done this. During the time BR would have been just helping GM with this… they actually did nothing but stand around by their Crew Carriers in the Sesame Clearing area for hours doing nothing at all.

                      >> Bob Powers also said…
                      >>
                      >> To the point that Steed said they
                      >> had about an hour to finish their
                      >> assignment. that says they did
                      >> quite a bit of line in roughly 5 hours.

                      If we are going to assume their goal really was to complete handline around the black edge all the way NORTH to that EXPLOSIVES sign and the spot where the dozer had improved that Jeep Trail right up to the black…

                      …then yes… that was a little farther than trying to build line due east towards the other improved two-track.

                      How much farther?

                      Not much.. but some.

                      As a point of reference… let’s actually use that infamus NOTCHED ROCK that is actually seen in just about all of Christopher MacKenzie’s photos from the GM work area… and is also seen in MANY of the Joy Collura and ADOSH photos of that same area where GM was working.

                      From the ‘Notched Rock’ due NORTHEAST to the EXPLOSIVES sign…
                      1,917 feet / 639 yards / 0.36 Miles.

                      From the ‘Notched Rock due EAST to the other improved two-track….
                      1,787 feet / 596 yards / 0.34 Miles.

                      So regardless of which direction GM was actually heading with their line building… there really was only a difference of just 130 feet ( 43 yards ) between the two options.

                      Those measurements are not ‘guesses’ now that we have a confirmation where the EXPLOSIVES sign was and where the dozer actually ‘turned around’ that day on the NORTH Jeep Trail.

                      So call BOTH of the distances about the SAME. We now have a way to tell how much GM was ( or wasn’t ) getting done up there that afternoon.

          • Joy A. Collura says

            I had Sonny drop me off at the house today but I do not keep my archives at home so got those elsewhere than loaded some stuff up but I will not take my archives out to the caves/desert so any chance I am home I will get the archives elsewhere and examine for photo. So whatever comes first; the photo, the local, Sonny’s offer to take it as well as another—but have no clue which will come first.

      • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

        Reply to The Truth Will Always Remain Elusive ( TTWARE )
        post on June 1, 2015 at 3:26 pm

        >> TTWARE said…
        >>
        >> 1. If someone else purchases the land they will have no access to it.,
        >> UNLESS it is an adjoining landowner. But, THAT scenario, would
        >> piss off a gazillion people so I don’t think they’d ever do it.

        From what I can tell… there are already landowners with property adjacent to the that bottom half of Section 9 who couldn’t give a hootn’ crap whether what they do ( or don’t do ) pisses someone off, or not, so long as they are getting what they want.

        It WOULD behoove some of those landowners with property touching that south half of section 9 to OWN that land… and it really would NOT surprise me if they show up on the Yavapai County Courthose steps at 11:00 AM on June 30, 2015 and start trying to outbid the State for that land.

        >> TTWARE also wrote…
        >>
        >> 2. The reason Brendan may not have been attending the last few
        >> meetings, perhaps, is that due to the current controversy about the
        >> ‘rumored argument’, he and Amanda Marsh may not want to be in
        >> the same room together.

        Good point… but if you take as truth what Kyle Dickman himself is now saying ( in his book ) Amanda Marsh said to him… it’s hard to believe she would be either surprised or bothered by anything Brendan has to say.

        It was in Kyle Dickman’s PROLOGUE ( Page XV ) when he talked about first meeting Amanda Marsh and even then she told him that with regards to Eric… she knew THEY ( whoever she thinks THEY are ) were going to “Build him up… then tear him down”.

        In the PROLOGUE ( Page XV ) of Kyle Dickman’s book…
        ——————————————————————————–
        Much of Granite Mountain’s unique personality and culture stemmed from
        the crew’s leader, Eric Marsh. When I first met his widow, Amanda, at their
        horse ranch outside Prescott, she told me, “People are going to build him
        up — make him a hero — and then tear him down”. Her husband’s personal
        history was colored, but, more significantly, his fire-line record was varied.
        One hotshot superintendent who’d worked with Marsh called him a
        “bad-decisions, good-outcome guy”, while others considered him among
        the most skilled firefighters they knew. Marsh emerged as a highly intelligent
        and deeply complicated figure. He was key to understanding this tragedy.
        ————————————————————————–

        So it’s hard to believe Amanda Marsh would be ‘surprised’ in any way that some/all of the blame is going to be put on Eric Marsh… but maybe ( just maybe ) she really is pissed off at Brendan for how he has handled all this.

        As in… how BADLY he has handled all this.

        >> TTWARE also said…
        >>
        >>
        >> 3. Which came first, the chicken or the egg? Did Shapiro’s ‘one
        >> deposition’ stand come as a response to the other ‘global mediation’
        >> attorneys wanting to get in on this one, and then ADF balking, or did
        >> he make the stand previous to any of that, and THEN the ‘global
        >> mediation’ attorneys wanted to crash this party thinking they might
        >> not get another chance?

        Good question.

        What ARE we really looking at, here?

        Kudos to AZCENTRAL for finding out what really happened and not doing the same kind of obtuse reporting that the ‘Prescott Daily Courier’ is famous for… but even AZCENTRAL didn’t really get the cows into the barn.

        We still don’t know EXACTLY what went down here… or what the possiblities are now.

        It’s almost like Brendan, and his lawyer, and his therapist are DARING Judge Mosesso to issue an order that someone PROVE their client ( Brendan ) really does have PTSD bad enough to keep jerking everyone around like this.

        Back before the FIRST scheduled deposition ( which Brendan cancelled when he dumped Prescott City Attorney Jon Paladini in favor of Criminal Attorney David Shapiro ) this issue about whether there would be MORE THAN ONE DEPOSITION had already been addressed.

        That’s when ADOSH just wanted to postpone the first deposition from November 25 to December 14 just in case the ‘document dump’ scheduled for December 13 actually provided more evidence and more questions that only McDonough might know the answers to.

        But Judge Mosesso denied that ‘stay’; because Brednan’s own lawyer(s) and Arizona Forestry said they had NO PROBLEM with there being some FOLLOWUP depositions ( also under-oath ) if there needed to be.

        Now… two deposition cancellations later.. that has completely changed.

        Brendan’s lawyer is now all about just allowing ONE SINGLE DEPOSITION.

        Granted… anyone who wants to know what Brendan really knows has now had plenty of time to assemble the right list of QUESTIONS… but still… this guy is the key witness in a very complicated case involving THREE separate classes of legal proceedings ( ADOSH citation Hearing track, ‘Wringful Death’ Civil Cases(s), and ‘Property Damage’ Civil Case(s) ).

        That’s just the way it is… and the cards the guy has been dealt.

        It is unrealistic for him or his lawyers or advisers to think he can always be ‘calling the shots’ and setting the ‘agenda’.

        At any moment.. one Judge or the other is going to subpoena his ass.

        • Marti Reed says

          You wrote:

          “It WOULD behoove some of those landowners with property touching that south half of section 9 to OWN that land… and it really would NOT surprise me if they show up on the Yavapai County Courthose steps at 11:00 AM on June 30, 2015 and start trying to outbid the State for that land.”

          See what I wrote upstream about Maughan and the parcel. I TOTALLY agree with you.

    • rocksteady says

      Just thinking here….

      Wonder if suddenly Brandon will spill his guts on June 30th? The anniversary of the event, for maximum benefit, since he now declares himself “a public figure”?

      Right up there with the Kardashian ‘ s 🙁

      • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

        Dunno. Absolutely NOTHING would surprise me at this point.

        My whole thing with Brendan McDonough declaring his occupation to be “Public Figure” on his own Facebook page ( and the reason I was pointing it out )… is that if this guy is still going to be playing the PTSD card over in the court proceedings… it’s gonna be a little hard.

        I mean, c’mon… some guy is saying he has PTSD so bad he can’t sit through a private deposition and talk about things he’s already blabbed about to the media and church groups ( and who-knows-who-else ) over and over already…

        …but the same guy is now saying his OCCUPATION is ‘PUBLIC FIGURE’… and the guy publishes his own frickin’ CELLPHONE NUMBER in the ABOUT box on his own frickin’ PUBLIC Facebook page?

        Sorry. It just doesn’t ‘add up’.

    • rocksteady says

      With it coming close to the anniversary of the fire, I wonder if Brandon is going to “spill his guts” on the 30th of JUne??? After all, he is now a “public figure”, meaning publicity…

      He thinks hes right up there with Kim and Chloe 🙂

      • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

        As I said up above… the ‘juggling act’ Brendan seems to have going on here is that over in the LEGAL arena… he seems to want to claim he should receive ‘special handling’ and ‘special treatment’ because he still has PTSD so bad even the act of having to recall what happened that day is ‘traumatic’ for him…

        …but at the same time he has now changed his DESCRIPTION / OCCUPATION field on his PUBLIC Facebook page to say “Public Figure”… and he has actually PUBLISHED his own CELLPHONE number there in the ABOUT box on that same PUBLIC Facebook page.

        What… does he expect anyone who has any questions to just CALL him?

        Something is just not right here, and Brendan can’t have it both way.

        He can’t say he is a “Public Figure” and say he is dedicating his life to making sure everyone “Remembers his brothers” ( and all fallen WFF )… but continue to tell Judges and Lawyers he should receive special treatment with regards to just telling them what he knows about what really happened on June 30, 2013.

        It’s a VERY unusual situation… and I have no idea how it’s going to play out.

        I just hope that if Brendan is really still having that much trouble even just talking about what happened almost 2 years ago… that he is getting ( and will continue to get ) the REAL HELP that he seems to need.

  15. WantsToKnowTheTruth says

    **
    ** AZCENTRAL REPORTS ON LATEST DEPOSITION CANCELLATION

    Just as Marti predicted… AZCENTRAL has posted their article about the latest McDonough deposition cancellation… but the delay was just so they could find out a few more details.

    Sure enough… It looks like this David Shapiro guy is the culprit.

    All of a sudden he comes out with his own little poker-hand and nasty-grams and tried to say that his client ( McDonough ) will ONLY give ONE deposition.. no matter what ( unlike previously where Shapiro had agreed to followup depositions if necessary ).

    Shapiro is the one who was now trying to turn this one deposition into a BIG PARTY with all kinds of lawyers from all the different proceedings present at this one-and-only-take-it-or-leave-it deposition of McDonough.

    As I had guessed the other day.. it was Shapiro’s turn to piss all over the proceedings.

    It appears that AZF attorney David Selden wasn’t buying any of it and told Shapiro “not a chance”… we will depose for “Arizona Forestry versus ADOSH” but you and your client can negotiate separately with all the others who might want a piece of your evasive client.

    AZF attorney David Selden called Shapiro’s bluff.

    So Shapiro is now the one that ‘jumped the shark’ and he’s the one that has to ‘fix it’.

    Here’s the article appeared this evening…

    AZCENTRAL
    Article Title: Yarnell hotshot deposition delayed over legal dispute
    Published: 7:17 p.m. MST May 30, 2015 by Yvonne Wingett Sanchez
    http://www.azcentral.com/story/politicalinsider/2015/05/30/yarnell-fire-hotshot-brendan-mcdonough-deposition-postponed/28243273/

    From the article…
    ——————————————————————————–
    Deposition postponed … The sworn deposition of Brendan McDonough, the lone surviving member of the Granite Mountain Hotshots, did not take place last week as scheduled.

    Plans to depose him Thursday about the events surrounding the Yarnell Hill Fire, where 19 members of the crew perished, were derailed over a dispute about who could attend.

    McDonough has previously been interviewed by fire investigators and the media, but he has never answered questions about the accident under oath. Two prior scheduled depositions have been canceled.

    His testimony is of interest in litigation stemming from the catastrophe, particularly in light of recent claims that McDonough overheard a crucial radio transmission between hotshot crew bosses about the positioning of the firefighting team. The attorney representing state forestry has been trying to depose McDonough for several months tied to a workplace safety case, following revelations of McDonough’s alleged knowledge of those radio transmissions.

    Documents obtained by The Arizona Republic last week shed light on the dispute.

    McDonough’s attorney, David Shapiro, wrote to attorneys representing the state that McDonough would participate in one deposition, which could be attended by attorneys in both the workplace and civil litigation cases: “Unless, of course, your goal never was to foster transparency, encourage truth-finding, and minimize stress and trauma on the impacted parties,” Shapiro wrote in one e-mail.

    Dave Selden, attorney for state forestry, wrote he could not agree to the conditions, saying that he is only involved in the workplace-safety case and that Shapiro would have to make arrangements for future depositions with other attorneys.

    “My interest is to obtain the full, complete and truthful testimony of Mr. McDonough,” Selden wrote Shapiro. “I believe it will be less stressful for him and that the purpose of the deposition in obtaining his full, complete and truthful testimony will be enhanced if the deposition is not a spectacle attended by a large number of other persons.”

    McDonough is expected to shed light on what he heard during a radio conversation between Granite Mountain Hotshots supervisor Eric Marsh and his deputy, Jesse Steed, shortly before the crew was overcome by the fire. According to one unofficial account, Marsh was purported to have ordered Steed to abandon a safe zone and join him with the crew at another location near where the crew died a short time later.
    ——————————————————————————–

    ERRATTA: Photo number FOUR in the slideshow at the bottom of the page is incorrectly identified as a post-fire picture of the Boulder Springs Ranch. It is not. It’s another place southeast of the BSR that also had some defensive work already done and it survived the burn-over/around.

    • Marti Reed says

      Shall we start laying bets on what’s going to happen tomorrow?

      What a mess.

      With that story in mind, I was just checking out WildlandFire dot com and found myself reading through a 2010 thread. regarding the Esperanza Fire Investigation. that was bumped up into 2015 by a posting at the end of it regarding the movie being made from John Maclean’s book.

      All things considered, I think it’s worth reading, while await the next twist in the Yarnell Hill Wildfire saga.

      —————————————————–

      Thread: Esperanza Factual Report Analysis, 2007

      abercrombie Administrator

      Esperanza Factual Report Analysis, 2007

      I added these links – that clarify and correct the Esperanza Investigation Report- to the list (under Esperanza) on the Documents Worth Reading page of the Archives.

      For comparison, the Esperanza Investigation Report (in manageable, down-loadable pieces) is located on the CAL FIRE website. Ab.

  16. WantsToKnowTheTruth says

    **
    ** KYLE DICKMAN SOUNDS OFF ON CNN
    **
    ** HE TELLS HOMEOWNERS TO STOP EXPECTING FIREFIGHTERS TO DO ANYTHING

    The following appeared in the thread below that was discussing Kyle Dickman’s willy-nilly ( and unverified ) statement that it was Blue Ridge Superintendent Brian Frisby who ORDERED Peeples Valley FFs Bob Brandon and Matt Keehner to ABANDON their crewmates.

    It was about the CNN article that Kyle Dickman wrote just the other day ( My 27 ), on the day before Brendan’s most recent blown deposition ( May 28 ).

    It’s Kyle Dickman himself “going off” on homeowners ( in general ) and telling them to STOP even expecting firefighters to ever try and protect their homes OR their property.

    CNN
    Article Title: Stop expecting firefighters to save your homes
    By Kyle Dickman
    Posted/Updated 8:03 AM ET, Wed May 27, 2015

    http://www.cnn.com/2015/05/27/opinions/dickman-wildfire-threat/index.html

    • Marti Reed says

      You wrote:

      “It’s Kyle Dickman himself “going off” on homeowners ( in general ) and telling them to STOP even expecting firefighters to ever try and protect their homes OR their property.”

      KD wrote:

      “Homeowners should be proactively preparing for fires–as they do in Australia–by thinning brush around their homes and installing fire resistant roofs and siding. If they do, they shouldn’t have to risk their lives to save their homes. Nor should firefighters.

      With that edge alone, firefighters have a real and safe chance at protecting houses from even the worst of fires. In Yarnell, one ranch with adequate defensible space survived even after flames as high as 60 feet consumed the walls of brush that surrounded the buildings.

      Millions more American are moving into wildfire-prone areas every decade. With climate change expected to lengthen and intensify western droughts and fires expected to keep pace, homes will keep burning in record numbers. Unless, that is, homeowners act on the most American of ideas and start protecting their own property.”

      There’s a difference.

      • Gary Olson says

        In fact, with a position like that, I am going to have to reverse myself and read Mr. Dickman’s book. Of course I don’t own a Kindle, so I think that means I will have to order a hard cover copy. (On a side note Kyle, please email me your mailing address so I can send you my copy for your autograph, garylolson@yahoo.com

        And I will say this about Mr. Dickman’s book without even reading it yet…at least he was willing to put himself out there under his real name and give it a shot. This is a probably the most complicated fire in history to try and write about and besides you know what they say, “It’s probably close enough for government work!”

        • Marti Reed says

          I have mixed feelings about him.

          Like I said his narrative claiming Brian Frisby was the one who ordered the Peeples Vally FF to abandon the six in Harper Canyon was the straw that broke the camel’s back for me.

          AND I’m increasingly in the camp of “OK people, if you’re not going to mitigate your own wildfire danger, I don’t believe fire-fighters facing an out-of-control wildfire should be doing it for you.”

          Screw it.

          • Gary Olson says

            Well…I already liked you Marti, I especially like the “screw it” part. You know that is a drum I have been beating since day 1.

            As far as the Brian Frisby part, yes, that is too bad, Brian Frisby is one of my hero’s from the Yarnell Hill Fire. Eric Tarr is another one.

            But like I said, it was a complex fire and Kyle put himself out there and gave everyone a good starting place. I found throughout my career that the person who goes first often losses the most but that same person sometimes wins the most.

            At least the rest of us now have something to criticize. And I doubt that Mr. Dickman said his book is the definitive book on the fire, that sounds like something his publisher said to sell books.

        • SR says

          Hope this isn’t just clutter, but for things like that book if you were to want to read it on kindle and have an Android phone, you normally should be able to read it on you phone after downloading kindle to the phone. iPhones I am not sure about.

          • Gary Olson says

            Thank you if that was for me, but being a pretty low tech guy I had probably better stick with the hard copy.

  17. WantsToKnowTheTruth says

    **
    ** HOLLYWOOD MOVIE PRODUCER SAYS HIS YARNELL MOVIE
    ** WILL BE LIKE THE KYLE DICKMAN BOOK.
    **
    ** MORE ABOUT JUST WHO THE MEN WERE THAN ABOUT THE FIRE THAT
    ** KILLED THEM OR THE DECISIONS THEY MADE.

    The following PDC article appeard in just the last few days and I brought the link to it back up here so it doesn’t get lost down below… because THIS report about the movie now actually tells us what the movie itself is going to be like.

    This is an update on the movie project that was actually announced almost a year ago, on June 24, 2014.

    The Producer ( Lorenzo di Bonaventura ) is the same and so is the author of the screenplay ( Ken Nolan, who wrote ‘Blackhawk Down’ ), but the original director ( Scott Cooper, ‘Crazy Heart’ ) has backed out. No new director named yet.

    The Prescott Daily Courier
    Article Title: Hotshots movie in development
    Published: 5/27/2015 6:03:00 AM by Joanna Dodder Nellans
    http://dcourier.com/main.asp?SectionID=1&SubSectionID=1086&ArticleID=145778&TM=48728.38

    From the article…
    —————————————————————-
    A movie about Prescott’s fallen hotshot firefighters is still in the works, although some of the players have changed.

    Producer Lorenzo di Bonaventura of “Transformers” fame is in the development stage for the movie, planning the elements of the film, his publicist Arnold Robinson of Rogers and Cowan said.

    Ken Nolan, screenwriter of “Black Hawk Down,” currently is writing the script, Robinson added.

    “There are no actors attached to the project at this time, but discussions with talent are taking place,” Robinson said. Director Scott Cooper (“Crazy Heart” and “Out of the Furnace”) is no longer planning to work on the hotshot film, his spokesperson said.
    ———————————————————————-

    Later in the article… there is the following interesting quote from producer Lorenzo di Bonaventura.

    He didn’t have much to say last June 24 when this movie project was first announced and he was first named as producer… but now we hear him describing what ‘perspective’ he wants the movie to take…

    —————————————————————-
    “The nation came together to mourn the great loss of life by these heroes, but their bonds with each other makes their story so much more extraordinary and compelling,” di Bonaventura said. “The story of the Granite Mountain Hotshots, and the tragedy that befell them, is not as much about the fire as it is about a group of blue-collar guys and their families and the brotherhood that they form with one another.”
    —————————————————————-

    So the last sentence tells us what this movie is pretty much going to look like…

    “…not as much about the fire as it is about a group of blue-collar guys and their families and the brotherhood that they form with one another.”

    In other words.. pretty much just like the Kyle Dickman book.

    It’s going to be a “human interest” approach and just another “isn’t it great to be in the brotherhood” movie…and the actual ‘Yarnell Hill Fire’ is probably not going to be examined in any great detail.

    I hope this movie producer is paying attention to the reviews of the Dickman book.

    Yes… some people appreciate Dickman’s book for what it is ( just a chance to know a little more about the men who burned to death ) but MOST of the reviews are also proving that people DO want to KNOW more about WHAT HAPPENED that day… and Dickman’s book just leaves them hanging, disappointed, and wanting to know MORE.

    • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

      And once again ( just like in the comments on the article about the Granite Mountain Hotshots memorial ) the comment section for this ‘movie’ announcement has at least one local resident saying that they hope the movie uses the actual Yarnell Hill Fire area and the Prescott area for the location shoots… because that will be great for bringing more TOURISM dollars to Prescott.

      • says

        Speaking of comments on Daily Courier article, I find it interesting that, even as late as today, there are NO comments on the DC article about McDonough’s deposition being cancelled YET AGAIN.

        • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

          Copy that. Same for the AZCENTRAL article.

          Not even any comments from ‘the regulars’ at these sites. It qualifies as unusual.

          Maybe everyone is too busy picking their jaws up off the floor to comment yet. It realty has now crossed over into the ABSURD..

          Now that we know more about what just went down it’s hard to say if there really is a fix here short of an actual subpoena.

          If Brendan’s therapist is still running the show and is the one insisting there only be one single deposition for any / all lawyers who want a piece of Brendan… then this could amount to an impasse and Judge Mosesso really will have to step in.

  18. WantsToKnowTheTruth says

    **
    ** LOCATION OF EXPLOSIVES SIGN

    I’m bringing this back up to the top after a busy day of postings because I really think I’m making a very simple request that keeps getting ignored.

    Here is that same message from below that I’ve posted about FIVE times now…

    ————————————————————————————
    Thank you, Joy.

    I now have copies of those other 53 photos and I’m still looking at them.

    With regards to that one photo showing the old gas can on the ground right in front of those overlapping sheets of what looks like corrugated metal panels…

    …is that where the EXPLOSIVES sign was there out on that Jeep Trail?

    Are those the original ‘signs’ themselves there just lying on the ground by the gas can?

    Where exactly was that photo taken?

    It’s going to be hard to geo-tag it just from the photo itself since it’s just a photo of the ground and there isn’t much ‘terrain’ to go on.

    Also… as I said down below… if you have just a moment or two… could you simply just click on the following link and tell me if the ‘red balloon’ marker that appears is where that EXPLOSIVES SIGN really is?

    https://www.google.com/maps/place/34%C2%B013%2759.8%22N+112%C2%B047%2714.2%22W/@34.233286,-112.787277,17z/data=!3m1!1e3

    Thanks in advance!

    A photo of this infamous EXPLOSIVES sign would be nice… but it is still far more important to just determine, once and for all, exactly WHERE that sign was out there than to actually have a photo of it.
    —————————————————————————————–

    • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

      If that clickable link above is NOT actually working… and you do NOT get taken to a Google Maps Satellite view of the old-grader area with a RED Balloon where the dozer scrape appears to stop and, I believe, that old EXPLOSIVES sign was located…

      …then please let me know.

      There are other links/pages that can be used to accomplish the same thing here.

      • says

        The link IS working.

        However, it didn’t come up with the red balloon visible. I had to click on the magnifying glass next to the location fill in (where you have the longitude/latitude) and then the red balloon appeared.

        Too bad we can’t get close enough to see the gas tank.

        Come on Google!

        • says

          And this stupid WordPress is STILL automatically tagging my posts with an http//deleted tag and turning my name red.

          It’s getting really tiring.

          Please JD could you fix this?

    • Joy A. Collura says

      hi. popping in quick at the Wickenburg library. WWTKTT- the temps are high where we are now. Sunday I logged on laptop to get virus and desktop it took over 14 hours to fix the two Sunday and so I have been out running since 4:50am so I have not been able to do the photos but I did look 12-2am but had to crash because alarm was set for 4;33am—I am not forgetting you nor Dr. Ted Putnam just have a lot on my plate and it SHOULD solo be health but its not—
      To confirm Dr,. Ted Putnam; yes that couple was the same couple in Chino Valley. Is it coincidence? Or are we the hikers continuing to being followed??? And why follow us even going on two years? I am just typing real quick…no time to read…

      • Sonny Gilligan says

        Joy A Collura and Sonny Gilligan present here at Aguila library.

        replies:

        pretty damn close Sonny says and Joy says it is pretty close if not on it.
        we will further get information for you to have reliable source.

        reply in caps below:

        LOCATION OF EXPLOSIVES SIGN

        WHAT HAS BEEN HARD IS I HAVE FOUND PRIOR TO FIRE HIKES BUT NONE WITH SIGN YET. MAINLY PHOTOS & VIDEOS OF SNAKEMAN, FRANKIE AND ME RELOCATING RATTLESSNAKES BY THE DOZENS IN THAT AREA. FOR A LONG TIME AND I MEAN LONG TIME SNAKEMAN HAD BEEN RELOCATING SNAKES TO THIS AREA; OVER FORTY YEARS. MY BIBLE STUDY’S PAL’S HUSBAND WAS A MINER FRIEND OF SNAKEMAN. SHE CAN CONFIRM MY DIALECT. WHEN HE WAS DYING HE EVEN ON MY PERIMETER CAMERAS STATED NOT TOO LONG BEFORE HE DIED TO RELOCATING SOME TO MY BACKYARD BECAUSE I CEASED HIKES WITH HIM SUMMER 2009 BUT I COULD NOT COMPREHEND HIS QUIRKY WAYS- HE REMINDED ME OF THE MAN EDD BYRNES OF 77 SUNSET STRIP—I NICKNAMED SNAKEMAN “KOOKIE” BECAUSE HE PLAIN OUT WAS…PLUS HE DID WHAT THE FONZ AND KOOKIE DID ALWAYS WITH THAT DARN COMB. MOST YOUNG SOULS WON’T EVEN KNOW WHO EDD BYRNES IS BUT I AM A GAL WHO WATCHED THAT SHOW AND ALOT OF GOLDEN ONES FROM THE DAY…I LOVED THE LIFE AND LEGEND OF WYATT EARP WITH HUGH O BRIAN…

        I’m bringing this back up to the top after a busy day of postings because I really think I’m making a very simple request that keeps getting ignored.NOT IGNORED. I HAVE NOT EVEN DONE MY HEALTH STUFF. I KEEP PUTTING OTHERS BEFORE ME AND SOON I AM GOING TO BE FIRM AND JUST MAKE THE DARN APPOINTMENTS BUT STUBBORN ME HOLDS OFF HOPING TIME WILL JUST HEAL…SO DREAD THE DOCS-

        SONNY:
        WWTKTT
        Sorry for my tortoise way there. So you know we have to come into town some ten miles of dirt and rough roads, and It is sometimes hard to get a computer here at the library. So no intent to evade the question –Joy showed me that map of the burned out area and we saw the old grader area on the map of the burned out Weaver terrain.
        That red tear drop is just about right on as to the location of the explosives sign. You can see where the dozer cleared out an area then above that a ways is the sign. The road after the sign makes a jag to the North for maybe a few hundred yards if that much, It then veers back along the north side of the wash and canyon, very steep to first mine then crosses the wash back to the south and switches back toward the higher mine diggings. All that from memory, and Joy is still looking — she did take a photo of that sign but a lot of time has passed and she up to now has not found it. She will post or send to you if she discovers it.

        Do know that that dozer guy had some real rough going in that boulderous area from the grader to where he turned around.

        Here is that same message from below that I’ve posted about FIVE times now…
        AGAIN WE ARE SORRY—BUT THERE IS MORE THAN JUST THE HIKERS—I MEAN THERE IS CHIEF BEN PALM WHO DETERMINES WHO GOES AND WHO DOES NOT OUT THERE SO MAYBE CONTACT HIM AND ASK HIM…HEE HEE

        ————————————————————————————
        Thank you, Joy.
        NO PROBLEM.

        I now have copies of those other 53 photos and I’m still looking at them.
        GOOD

        With regards to that one photo showing the old gas can on the ground right in front of those overlapping sheets of what looks like corrugated metal panels…

        …is that where the EXPLOSIVES sign was there out on that Jeep Trail?
        YES IF YOU TURNED AROUND ROM TAKING THAT PHOTO- RIGHT THERE

        Are those the original ‘signs’ themselves there just lying on the ground by the gas can?
        WOULD HAVE TO SEE PHOTO AGAIN TO ANSWER- I DO NOT THINK SO BY MEMORY- OLD GAS TANKS AND 55 GALON BARREL DRUMS

        Where exactly was that photo taken?
        TRYING TO REACH A FIRM CONFIRMATION NOT YET
        BUT QUESTION TO YOU
        A LOCAL READ MY FLYER IN CONGRESS AND THINKS THEY HAVE THE PHOTO TOO
        THEY WILL NOT SHARE IT BUT HOW DO THEY LOOK AT THE GPS ON THE PROPERTIES—
        I CAN TELL THEM ON MY NEXT TIME TO LAUNDRY MAT BULLETING BOARD AREA

        It’s going to be hard to geo-tag it just from the photo itself since it’s just a photo of the ground and there isn’t much ‘terrain’ to go on.RIGHT

        Also… as I said down below… if you have just a moment or two… could you simply just click on the following link and tell me if the ‘red balloon’ marker that appears is where that EXPLOSIVES SIGN really is?

        Thanks in advance!

        A photo of this infamous EXPLOSIVES sign would be nice… but it is still far more important to just determine, once and for all, exactly WHERE that sign was out there than to actually have a photo of it.

    • Joy A. Collura and Sonny Gilligan says

      pretty damn close Sonny says and Joy says it is pretty close if not on it.
      we will further get information for you to have reliable source.

      reply in caps below:

      LOCATION OF EXPLOSIVES SIGN

      WHAT HAS BEEN HARD IS I HAVE FOUND PRIOR TO FIRE HIKES BUT NONE WITH SIGN YET. MAINLY PHOTOS & VIDEOS OF SNAKEMAN, FRANKIE AND ME RELOCATING RATTLESSNAKES BY THE DOZENS IN THAT AREA. FOR A LONG TIME AND I MEAN LONG TIME SNAKEMAN HAD BEEN RELOCATING SNAKES TO THIS AREA; OVER FORTY YEARS. MY BIBLE STUDY’S PAL’S HUSBAND WAS A MINER FRIEND OF SNAKEMAN. SHE CAN CONFIRM MY DIALECT. WHEN HE WAS DYING HE EVEN ON MY PERIMETER CAMERAS STATED NOT TOO LONG BEFORE HE DIED TO RELOCATING SOME TO MY BACKYARD BECAUSE I CEASED HIKES WITH HIM SUMMER 2009 BUT I COULD NOT COMPREHEND HIS QUIRKY WAYS- HE REMINDED ME OF THE MAN EDD BYRNES OF 77 SUNSET STRIP—I NICKNAMED SNAKEMAN “KOOKIE” BECAUSE HE PLAIN OUT WAS…PLUS HE DID WHAT THE FONZ AND KOOKIE DID ALWAYS WITH THAT DARN COMB. MOST YOUNG SOULS WON’T EVEN KNOW WHO EDD BYRNES IS BUT I AM A GAL WHO WATCHED THAT SHOW AND ALOT OF GOLDEN ONES FROM THE DAY…I LOVED THE LIFE AND LEGEND OF WYATT EARP WITH HUGH O BRIAN…

      I’m bringing this back up to the top after a busy day of postings because I really think I’m making a very simple request that keeps getting ignored.NOT IGNORED. I HAVE NOT EVEN DONE MY HEALTH STUFF. I KEEP PUTTING OTHERS BEFORE ME AND SOON I AM GOING TO BE FIRM AND JUST MAKE THE DARN APPOINTMENTS BUT STUBBORN ME HOLDS OFF HOPING TIME WILL JUST HEAL…SO DREAD THE DOCS-

      SONNY:
      WWTKTT
      Sorry for my tortoise way there. So you know we have to come into town some ten miles of dirt and rough roads, and It is sometimes hard to get a computer here at the library. So no intent to evade the question –Joy showed me that map of the burned out area and we saw the old grader area on the map of the burned out Weaver terrain.
      That red tear drop is just about right on as to the location of the explosives sign. You can see where the dozer cleared out an area then above that a ways is the sign. The road after the sign makes a jag to the North for maybe a few hundred yards if that much, It then veers back along the north side of the wash and canyon, very steep to first mine then crosses the wash back to the south and switches back toward the higher mine diggings. All that from memory, and Joy is still looking — she did take a photo of that sign but a lot of time has passed and she up to now has not found it. She will post or send to you if she discovers it.

      Do know that that dozer guy had some real rough going in that boulderous area from the grader to where he turned around.

      Here is that same message from below that I’ve posted about FIVE times now…
      AGAIN WE ARE SORRY—BUT THERE IS MORE THAN JUST THE HIKERS—I MEAN THERE IS CHIEF BEN PALM WHO DETERMINES WHO GOES AND WHO DOES NOT OUT THERE SO MAYBE CONTACT HIM AND ASK HIM…HEE HEE

      ————————————————————————————
      Thank you, Joy.
      NO PROBLEM.

      I now have copies of those other 53 photos and I’m still looking at them.
      GOOD

      With regards to that one photo showing the old gas can on the ground right in front of those overlapping sheets of what looks like corrugated metal panels…

      …is that where the EXPLOSIVES sign was there out on that Jeep Trail?
      YES IF YOU TURNED AROUND ROM TAKING THAT PHOTO- RIGHT THERE

      Are those the original ‘signs’ themselves there just lying on the ground by the gas can?
      WOULD HAVE TO SEE PHOTO AGAIN TO ANSWER- I DO NOT THINK SO BY MEMORY- OLD GAS TANKS AND 55 GALON BARREL DRUMS

      Where exactly was that photo taken?
      TRYING TO REACH A FIRM CONFIRMATION NOT YET
      BUT QUESTION TO YOU
      A LOCAL READ MY FLYER IN CONGRESS AND THINKS THEY HAVE THE PHOTO TOO
      THEY WILL NOT SHARE IT BUT HOW DO THEY LOOK AT THE GPS ON THE PROPERTIES—
      I CAN TELL THEM ON MY NEXT TIME TO LAUNDRY MAT BULLETING BOARD AREA

      It’s going to be hard to geo-tag it just from the photo itself since it’s just a photo of the ground and there isn’t much ‘terrain’ to go on.RIGHT

      Also… as I said down below… if you have just a moment or two… could you simply just click on the following link and tell me if the ‘red balloon’ marker that appears is where that EXPLOSIVES SIGN really is?

      https://www.google.com/maps/place/34%C2%B013%2759.8%22N+112%C2%B047%2714.2%22W/@34.233286,-112.787277,17z/data=!3m1!1e3

      Thanks in advance!

      A photo of this infamous EXPLOSIVES sign would be nice… but it is still far more important to just determine, once and for all, exactly WHERE that sign was out there than to actually have a photo of it.

      • Joy A. Collura says

        thank you Ered Matthews-
        I just ran into old material of yours-
        you and Morgan Loew captured the hikers as real and raw as possible.
        thank you.
        I am still trying to find photo.

  19. WantsToKnowTheTruth says

    **
    ** THE MYSTERY SUPERVISOR AT THE YOUTH CAMP – REDUX

    As we were once again discussing the Kyle Dickman book and its ERRATTA… and how he just willy-nilly states as a FACT that it was Blue Ridge Superintendent Brian Frisby who was ORDERING Peeples Valley FFs Bob Brandon and Matt Keehner to abandon their crewmates…

    …a number of interesting questions got asked.

    First and foremost… it is still NOT KNOWN exactly who it was that told Bob Brandon and Matt Keehner to abandon their own men in Harper Canyon. We have come close to identifying this person and the most likely candidate is Task Force Leader Trainee Tyson Esquibel.

    It is actually HIGHLY UNLIKELY it was Brian Frisby, as Kyle Dickman now states as fact.

    I’m going to respond to the questions that popped up on this thread below as best I can… and it will have to be one post at a time since it’s probably going to take a lot of Hyperlinks to get this done.

    So here goes. Responding to something TTWARE said first…

    Reply to The Truth Will Always Remain Elusive (TTWARE) post on May 29, 2015 at 8:37 pm

    >> TTWARE said…
    >>
    >> Since we’re discussing nuances of the reports involving the Harper
    >> Canyon thing, my recollection is that he stated that “the ‘incident
    >> commander’ for our area came and ordered me to move the vehicle”.

    You have a GREAT memory. That is EXACTLY correct.

    The HE you are referring to is Peeples Valley FF Bob Brandon, and the place he said this was NOT in the various media articles that appeared. It was in his OWN story… in his OWN words… as posted on the Yarnell Hill Recovery Group Website.

    Website: Yarnell Hill Recovery Group – Stories page
    Story by: Bob Brandon
    Title: Gets Caught in the Firestorm, Helps Rebuild
    http://www.yarnellhillrecoverygroup.org/our_stories/os_bob_brandon.html

    From Bob Brandon’s STORY… in his OWN words…

    NOTE: Bob Brandon makes it VERY clear here in his own story that he knew perfectly well who the Blue Ridge Hotshots were and when he was seeing him in that Youth Camp area. This is the account where Brandon identifies the person who would order them to leave as “the Incident Commander for our area”, just as you are remembering.

    I just wanted to point out that as mistaken as Brandon was about this person being an ‘Incident Commander’… he was also just as sure this person was NOT a ‘Blue Ridge Hotshot’.

    Also NOTE that even though Brandon seems to mis-identify this person as an IC… the way Brandon tells the story ( in his own words ) is that he is also definitely SURE this same IC person was there waiting for them in the St. Joseph Shrine Parking lot after he and Keehner slowly drove the vehicles out.

    This actually MATCHES some research that Marti did on Tyson Esquibel’s whereabouts in this timeframe and the stillframes Marti extracted from one of the Aaaron Hulburd M2Uxxxx videos which shows ( apparently ) the same YELLOW-HELMET FF with the chest harness seen out in the Youth Camp area standing back there by the Shrine just a little later.

    That actually MATCHES Brandon’s account here… in HIS own words… of this same ‘IC’ person who was ordering them around in the Youth Camp also meeting them again back there at the St. Joseph Shrine. More about this later.

    Here is Bob Brandon… in his OWN words and not filtered through a reporter…

    —————————————————————————————-
    About that time, the Blue Ridge Hot Shots arrived on our scene and they started to march in. It was actually a two-pronged attack on this road we were supposed to be cutting. We were to the north and they were to the south of us along the bulldozed road.

    Then the sky started really looking funny. To that point we never had any smoke or fire to speak of that was threatening us. The fire was quite a ways away, about a mile. My lookout came down off the mountain and said that there was a problem because he just got the weather report and they talked about the changing winds, but he didn’t understand what it meant.

    We looked up behind Boulder Mountain and we noticed that the fire was standing straight up, right behind Boulder Mountain about 100 feet high. And we’re thinking, That’s not right. Because the fire was way north of us, clear up to Peeples Valley.

    As the sky started to darken, we were getting really nervous about what was going on. Well the Hot Shots from Blue Ridge came running out of the woods, and I mean just as fast as they could go, and this was heavy forest. They just came running out of the woods, jumped in their trucks and left. And I’m thinking, Wait a minute. They’re professionals. We do this on a volunteer basis, so what aren’t we seeing?

    I had an alarm that we had set up. I was going to turn the siren on and start pressing the siren so they could hear us, and that meant to abandon and come back and we’ll get out. Well, when I started the alarm, the Incident Commander for our area came pulling up, and he said, “I want you to get these trucks out of here.”

    I says, “I can’t do that.”

    He said, “You have to do it now.”

    And I said, “No. There’s six men still like a mile out into the forest and they need to come back to this safe zone, because this is where they know it is.”

    And he said, “No. I’m telling you to leave now.”

    I told my lookout, I said, “Go to their trucks and put the keys in the ignition and start the trucks so when they come running out of the woods and they get to their truck they don’t have to look for their keys.”

    He said, “We’re not going to leave,” and I said, “Yeah, we’re going to leave but we’re going to drive very slow.”

    Well he didn’t want to and I told him, “We have to. This is what we have to do.”

    The next instant, the fire dropped right over the top of us like a gigantic hand and everything around us was on fire. It was pitch black. Matt could not even see the hood of the truck. You could see nothing. And there were fires and fireballs and flames in every direction.

    And I said, “Start driving very slow.”

    I turned on all my lights and started driving very slowly down this little path back to the Shrine. That was approximately 2 ½ miles. So we were just picking our way, really slow hoping that somebody would get to us or see the truck and get in.

    Well we drove all the way to the Shrine and about that time the Shrine was on fire. The hills were on fire around us and we met the IC and we told him that we’re not going any further.

    We said, “We need to get our six men that are back there.” We didn’t have any radio contact with them because it was so loud. It was like being in the back of a jet aircraft on a runway.

    So we were shouting at each other. About that time two Peeples Valley firefighters popped out through the black. And we got them over to the trucks and I said, “There’s still four more.”

    So he jumped back up to his truck and went back up the road. And he was met with the ones coming out with their trucks. So we all did meet at the Shrine.
    —————————————————————————————-

    >> TTWARE also said…
    >>
    >> The reason I remember that statement specifically is that it showed
    >> a complete lack of understanding (and training) regarding the incident
    >> command structure. There is only one IC on any given fire, period.

    That’s correct. It could not possibly have been Roy Hall.
    But see my other comment at the top.

    At the same time Bob Brandon seemed to be mistaken about the title of the person who would be ordering them to abandon their crewmates… Brandon was also definitelly SURE what the Blue Ridge Hotshots looked like and WHEN he was seeing them in the same area.

    He definitely does NOT think whoever was telling him to abandon his crewmates was a “Blue Ridge Hotshot”.

    ** BRANDON SPEAKS TO THIS MYSTERIOUS ‘IC’ AGAIN DOWN AT RHR…

    So we can say it’s a GIVEN that Bob Brandon was mis-identifying this one individual as an ‘Incident Commander’… but what is interesting in his own story, in his own words, is that he is CONSISTENT with this mis-identification and reports seeing/talking to this person no less than THREE times that afternoon.

    1) When this person ordered them to abandon their crewmates.
    2) At the St. Joseph Shrine after he and Keehner drove the vehicles out slowly.
    3) Once again down at the Ranch House Restaurant.

    More from Bob Brandon… in his OWN words…

    Here is the part where he says he spoke to this same ‘IC’ person again down at
    the Ranch House Restaurant…

    ———————————————————————
    I was fortunate enough that I had a camera in my jumper. So I was taking pictures all the time, any time I had a spare moment. And I took a picture of the slurry bomber that was actually driving right for what we later found out were the fallen firefighters.

    The four of us from Peeples Valley joined back up at the Ranch House and we decided we were going to go back to the Model Creek grade school. So we slowly made our way back.

    It was 4-ish, 4:30, in the afternoon and it was pitch black. You’d think it’s nighttime. You think, well you’re going to go back and have supper or get out of this because there’s nothing for you to do there. Because at that time Glen Ilah was virtually on fire and propane tanks were blowing up all around us and we just said, “You know there’s nothing we can do. You can’t go into that. It would be like going into a war zone.”

    So we told the IC we were going to go back down that way and that we would return in the morning or in the evening if they needed us, because we were basically on 24-hour duty. And we went back to Peeples Valley and waited out the evening and got ready for the next day.
    ———————————————————————

    So after seeing/talking to this mysterious IC person at least THREE times… there’s no doubt that Bob Brandon would be able to IDENTIFY this person if anyone asked him to.

    Kyle Dickman didn’t even do that.

    Dickman just decided for himself this ‘mystery person’ was Blue Ridge Superintendent Brian Frisby and he published that as a FACT in his book without even trying to verify it.

    And just for the sake of completeness… this online page is also where we find Bob Brandon describing being ‘inteviewed’ by investigators just 48 hours after the tragedy…

    ———————————————————————
    The next day they took us in and debriefed us. This was two days after the incident with the 19. They went through and looked at my pictures and took a flash card of them. And I don’t know what they did with them, but it was pretty good because my pictures had timelines on them, so they could see what happened at what time.

    Then they took information off our cellphones because that’s how we talked to, texted, each other. And those all had timelines on them, too. What time we were there. What time we were aware that the fire was about to overtake us. What time we got out. And some of the texts about whether we were safe.
    ———————————————————————

    To this day… all of this crucial ‘debriefing’ testimony and ‘evidence’ and ‘information’ that was gathered from Bob Brandon and the other Peeples Valley Firefighters has never seen the light of day… not even after many valid FOIA and Arizona Open Records requests.

    Okay… moving along to some of the other ( related ) questions that got asked…

    • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

      **
      ** HOW DO WE KNOW THAT’S TYSON ESQUIBEL IN THE
      ** BALL CAP AND CHEST HARNESS?

      Reply to Marti Reed post on May 29, 2015 at 8:03 pm

      >> Marti said…
      >>
      >> And as long as I’m writing down here in the weeds about the
      >> details regarding something that you and I are VERY interested in…
      >>
      >> I’m not looking at the images from the Ranch House Restaurant
      >> right now. But I have in my head-memory the image of the fire-fighter
      >> there that I think is the one you think is Tyson Esquibel and corresponds
      >> to the guy standing on the right of the UTV in the clearing at the Youth Camp.
      >>
      >> The question I have had, but have never asked is — What led you to
      >> believe that firefighter in the Ranch House Restaurant parking lot
      >> photo is Tyson Esquibel?
      >>
      >> I’m guessing, now, all things considered, you are correct. But I’m just
      >> curious how you determined that, given that at the time you were
      >> saying that, we hadn’t seen these videos which proved that it wasn’t
      >> Tony Sciacca, and we were much more sketchy about what was going on.
      >>
      >> I guess my question then, and thus now, was/is did you see something
      >> going on in those photos that tied that fire-fighter with that chest-holster
      >> and that yellow helmet to something definitive regarding “Tyson Esquibel”?
      >>
      >> I’m just curious.

      Tyson Esquibel’s PUBLIC Facebook page…

      https://www.facebook.com/tyson.esquibel

      There are plenty of 100 percent PUBLIC photos of Tyson Esquibel just sitting there on his Facebook page… and any number of them seem to confirm that is him in the Tom Story photos standing there in the Ranch House Restaurant parking lot with that ‘chest harness’ on and ( at that time, anyway ) that black baseball cap.

      We talked about all this back in Chapter 10 and the consensus was that it is perfectly possible Esquibel had a YELLOW HELMET on ( along with that same chest harness ) while he was out in the Youth Camp area… but as he drove that orange and white Glendale Fire Department extended cab pickup out of the Youth Camp and down to the RHR… he simply took off the YELLOW HELMET and replaced it with that Black Ball cap we then see him wearing in the Tom Story photos from the RHR parking lot.

      But he still had that same chest harness on even after switching from the YELLOW helmet to the black ball cap.

      You are actually the one who discovered more images that appear to be Tyson Esquibel in the last round of Aaron Hulburd videos.

      That requires more Hyperlinks… so will continue that next message…

      • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

        Back in Chapter 10 of this ongoing discussion…
        There was the following exchange regarding Tyson Esquibel…

        http://www.investigativemedia.com/yarnell-hill-fire-chapter-x/#comment-187441

        ————————————————————————
        ** WantsToKnowTheTruth says
        ** November 24, 2014 at 10:02 am

        Marti… on an airplane using a smartphone at the moment so it’s hard to cut/paste but here are some replies to multiple comments above.

        RE: Engine CEY P59
        You are right about the logo on the door. That isn’t Sun City FD logo. It is still definitely the same Engine CEY P59 seen in both video and Tom Story photos, though. Resource order E-5 with resource suborders E-5.1 thru E-5.4 showing crew members.

        RE: Yellow Helmet on FF with Chest Harness ( Tyson Esquibel? )
        Again… you are right. Meant to post about this the other day. Did another round of intense ‘color balancing’ myself on a blowup of that photo and there’s really no way that is a WHITE Helmet on that FF with the black chest harness standing out there near the BR Polaris Ranger in the Youth Camp. Has to be YELLOW. I think that puts it back to being Tyson Esquibel as the one who Bob Brandon was mistaking to be an ‘Incident Commander’ and the one who was ordering Brandon to move the vehicles and basically abandon his men out west in Harper Canyon. Esquibel was definitely wearing similar chest harness as seen in the photo.

        ** Marti Reed says
        ** November 24, 2014 at 10:36 am

        I did some screensnaps from some of the videos.

        On M2U00264, at +1:20 there’s a guy with a yellow helmet and a “bib harness” standing next to Brush Truck 103. Looks as close as I’ve seen in the videos
        to the guy with the yellow helmet in the Youth Camp photo. But I have no idea who this firefighter is. Just because he’s standing in the middle of the Youth Camp photo with the Blue Ridge UTV, doesn’t mean he is “the Commander” mentioned by Bob Brandon. And, yeah, I still think the “Commander” would have been, for these guys, Tyson Esquibel. And speaking of “safety issues.” A BUNCH of those guys walking out don’t even have helmets on, just baseball caps.

        ** WantsToKnowTheTruth says
        ** November 24, 2014 at 1:22 pm

        If you recall the past conversations about this ‘mystery IC’ who Bob Brandon says TOLD him to move the vehicles… what we still do NOT know is if Tyson Esquibel was simply wearing that ‘black ball cap’ all day ( as seen in the Tom Story photos )… or whether he, himself, had a YELLOW Helmet on when he was out in the Youth Camp area. He could have easily taken his Helmet off on the evacuation drive and put the ‘black ball cap’ on before reaching the RHR.

        I think in order to really solve the ‘Mystery IC’ problem… we need a little more detail from Bob Brandon himself.

        Gee… I wonder where we might find that.

        Oh… I don’t know… maybe in the FULL DEPOSITIONS he and the other Peeples Valley FFs say they gave to ‘investigators’ just 48 hours after they incident… but now seem to have disappeared off the face of the earth?

        ** Marti Reed says
        ** November 24, 2014 at 6:50 pm

        Yeppers!!!
        —————————————————————————-

        ** PHOTOS MATCH BOB BRANDON’S ACCOUNT?

        So back in Chapter 10 ( link above ) you said this…

        ——————————————————————-
        On M2U00264, at +1:20 there’s a guy with a yellow helmet and a “bib harness” standing next to Brush Truck 103. Looks as close as I’ve seen in the videos
        to the guy with the yellow helmet in the Youth Camp photo.
        ——————————————————————–

        That actually MATCHES the testimony from Bob Brandon that they actually spoke to this mysterious ‘IC’ guy TWICE out there that afternoon.

        ONCE when he ordered them to abandon their own crewmates because they (quote) “can’t run that fast”… than then AGAIN just a short while later when they reached the St. Joseph Shrine parking lot ( where you are seeing that same FF with the harness ).

        Here is that testimony from Bob Brandon about the SECOND time they ran into this same (mysterious) IC guy up there at the Shrine of St. Joseph…

        ——————————————————————–
        Well we drove all the way to the Shrine and about that time the Shrine was on fire. The hills were on fire around us and we met the IC and we told him that we’re not going any further.
        ——————————————————————–

        A LOT of this ‘matches’ the other evidence. The most recently released Aarron Hulburd videos DO show the Peeples Valley Fire Department vehicle(s) stopping there at the parking lot of the St. Joseph Shrine… exactly the way Brandon says they did.

        So this photo of the FF you say is “as close as I’ve seen in the videos to the guy with the yellow helmet in the Youth Camp photo” also matches Bob Brandon’s story and this photo COULD be of the same ‘IC’ guy that Brandon says he met again there in that parking lot.

        You know… this would have all been a lot easier if Kyle Dickman himself had even lifted one finger to try and VERIFY some of this before just willy-nilly deciding for himself this mysterious person was Brian Frisby.

        It was just a ‘lazy choice’ Dickman made.

        There is other testimony of both Frisby and Brown yelling across the Youth Camp at people to ‘get out’… so Dickman just assumed that meant any reports coming from anyone ( like Bob Brandon ) of being told to “get out” of that area had to be people remembering being told that by Brian Frisby.

        Just lazy reporting and lazy authorship.

        Another opportunity missed to find out what really happened that day.

        • says

          So given that I said this:

          “On M2U00264, at +1:20 there’s a guy with a yellow helmet and a “bib harness” standing next to Brush Truck 103. Looks as close as I’ve seen in the videos
          to the guy with the yellow helmet in the Youth Camp photo”

          …..back in November, now I don’t think that’s true, since…

          …..we can see the vehicle Tyson Esquibel was driving (as resourced in the Resource Order) driving out from the Youth Camp into the Shrine area right before the UTV driven/riddent by Frisby and Trew.

          And as that vehicle is driving by in Aaron’s video, we can hear Tyson communicating with Gary Cordes.

          OK now it’s REALLY time for me to hit the sack.

          • says

            On the other hand, maybe it’s possible that the guy in the video is the guy in the the photo and neither of them is Tyson Esquibel.

            Who friggin knows??????

            -/-

            • says

              That thing that I typed at the end was supposed to be a gesture that can be typed in Twitter that shows someone throwing their hands up into the air in mystification, but it didn’t work here.

              • says

                But I think the whole first point of this whole conversation is that whoever ordered that Peeples Valley fire-fighter to, apparently, abandon that crew working up in Harper Canyon wasn’t even remotely Brian Frisby.

                And the second point is that, given the seriousness of this incident, it really needs to be INVESTIGATED.

                All things considered.

                • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

                  Reply to Marti Reed post on
                  May 29, 2015 at 11:51 pm

                  >> Marti said…
                  >>
                  >> But I think the whole first point of this whole
                  >> conversation is that whoever ordered that
                  >> Peeples Valley fire-fighter to, apparently,
                  >> abandon that crew working up in Harper
                  >> Canyon wasn’t even remotely Brian Frisby.

                  I’m actually going to disagree with your choice of words there and say that I still consider it just HIGHLY UNLIKELY that it was Brian Frisby telling Bob Brandon to abandon his crewmates.

                  The truth is that there just hasn’t been a good enough investigation ( by ANYONE ) of this part of the ‘story’ to be sure.

                  Even Frisby’s own Unit Log says that he and Captain Brown were, in fact, YELLING at firefighters in the Youth Camp area to “get the hell out”.

                  There is also no question that what Blue Ridge Captain Brown says to KC ‘Bucky’ Yowell as they drive up to them in the Shrine parking lot, in response to KC ‘Bucky’ Yowell’s query of “How ya doin’, guy?” is…

                  “Tryin’ to keep fuckin’ idiots from burnin’ themselves up. God DAAAMN”.

                  So I don’t think the “not even remotely possible” phrase is 100 percent accurate.

                  It still MIGHT have been Frisby telling Brandon to get those vehicles out of there.

                  I just don’t know.

                  >> Marti also said…
                  >>
                  >> And the second point is that, given the
                  >> seriousness of this incident, it really needs
                  >> to be INVESTIGATED.
                  >>
                  >> All things considered.

                  And I think you just accurately described the other TAG LINE for this sub-thread.

                  It still goes back ( down below ) to a discussion of the Kyle Dickman book and his willy-nilly declaring that Brian Frisby was DEFINITELY the one ordering Brandon to abandon his crewmates.

                  How many ‘opportunities’ to actually discover the real truth for even moments like this are going to continue to be ‘missed’?

                  What do you even call what Kyle Dickman just demonstrated?

                  That he would actually make a move to publish a BOOK and actually dare to call it the “definitive account of the Yarnell Hill Fire”… when all we are discovering is that the guy was too lazy to even just TALK with people like Joy Collura, Sonny Gilligan, Bob Brandon and Matt Keehner?

                  What do you really call that?

                  Laziness?… or Incompetence?… or BOTH?

                  • says

                    I’d still say it’s 99.99999999999999999999999999999
                    percent likely that the guy ORDERING them to leave six crewmen at risk of losing their lives was NOT Brian Frisby.

                    If they HAD gotten killed because of this order (which could EASILY have been the case), his career would have been forever finished and he would be the target of a Wrongful Death Lawsuit.

                    And I’m sure he knows that. Unless I’m missing something.

                    Hmmmmmmmm sound familiar?

                    But they didn’t get killed so Esquibel isn’t facing that Lawsuit EITHER.

                    On the other hand, maybe this is exactly why AZDF was extremely comfortable with nobody investigating it. Or seeing pictures of it and reading conversations over cellphones and such about it.

                    And EXTREMELY uncomfortable with it being a part of the ADOSH citations.

                    Because that means it might just get investigated, after all.

                    I still think Brian should sue.

                    Like I wrote downstream, THIS was THE MAJOR reason I put down KD’s book and decided I didn’t really care about what he had to say about this thing.

                    I found it completely appalling.

                    This is NOT a game.

                    • The Truth Will Always Remain Elusive says

                      It was not Brian Frisby and here’s why:

                      ANYONE with a solid wildfire background would know that if 6 or ANY AMOUNT of firefighters were being overtaken by a wildfire, an ALL-STOP would need to be called immediately, and the number one priority on the fire would become the attempt to save the lives of THOSE people (sort of like what actually happened when GM deployed).

                      That fact that this did not occur is solid evidence to me the person involved did not have the experience or common sense to perform this act at the same moment he was ordering their ride to leave without them.

                      Hence, NOT Brian Frisby.

                    • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

                      I agree with 99.99999999999999999 percent and I also agree with TTWARE.

                      I really, really doubt it was Brian Frisby telling Bob Brandon and Matt Keehner to abandon their crewmates.

                      I really, really think the most likely candidate is still Task Force Leader Trainee Tyson Esquibel.

                      It’s just that this whole Harper Canyon / Youth Camp thing has always had ( and STILL has ) so many ‘loose ends’ it’s hard to go the full 100 percent on any of the current ‘assumptions’.

                      Captain Darby Starr was offered ( and he accepted ) a national level firefighter-of-the-year award for ( supposedly ) ‘saving’ himself and those other 5 FFs that were cutting line out there in Harper Canyon…

                      …but I’m still not sure even the story HE is telling is what really happened.

                      At some point… we REALLY do need to see/read those interview transcripts ( and the photographs ) from the Peeples Valley firefighters that WERE collected by Arizona Forestry but have never seen the light of day.

                      Having Brian Frisby and Trueheart Brown one day free to talk and not feel like they are members of the mafia, or something, would also be nice.

            • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

              Reply to Marti Reed post on May 29, 2015 at 11:42 pm

              >> Marti wrote…
              >>
              >> On the other hand, maybe it’s possible that the guy
              >> in the video is the guy in the the photo and neither
              >> of them is Tyson Esquibel.

              Exactly.

              There were also OTHER FFs wearing a similar chest harness that day who also appear in Tom Story photos at the RHR.

              In Tom Story photo 201303_Yarnell_Hill_1677, we see THREE FFs wearing the same ‘chest harness’.

              The one on the right with the black ball cap appears to be Tyson Esquibel ( because we can see his face pretty clearly and it matches photos of Tyson Esquibel ).

              But to his LEFT in the photo are TWO MORE FFs that seem to be wearing the same ‘chest harness’… and the first one to the left IS, in fact, also wearing a YELLOW Helmet. That’s the one who is also seen with the neck protector unfolded and up around his neck.

              To the left of HIM ( and in the foreground ) is the other FF with the bald head and talking on his cellphone. He has no head covering at all but his back is to the camera and we’ve never been able to see his face and/or identify him… but he, too, is wearing that ‘chest harness’ deal.

              Direct link to the Tom Story photo I’m talking about…

              https://www.dropbox.com/sh/02ue6bnjp6nazkm/AACUc_jX8WNPOrznsNSlYV-ea/Photos%20and%20Video/Tom%20Story%20Photos/201303_Yarnell_Hill_02?lst=&preview=201303_Yarnell_Hill_1677.jpg

              NOTE: There is also an FF with a RED HELMET in this photo seen sticking pretty close to the person who seems to be Tyson Esquibel. This FF has also never been identified. Maybe HE is the one with the RED HELMET seen in the photo(s) taken out at the Youth Camp.

              >> Marti also said…
              >>
              >> Who friggin knows??????

              A lot of people. Especially the ones who are IN the photographs or were standing nearby.

              I still can’t believe that throughout all of the SAIT and ADOSH interviews… they weren’t taking a moment as they had all these people ‘in the room’ to help them do their own identifications on who is in some of these critical photos.

              Again.. that’s like “Investigations 101”.
              Identify people in photographs.

          • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

            Reply to Marti Reed post on May 29, 2015 at 11:37 pm

            >> Marti said…
            >>
            >> And as that vehicle is driving by in Aaron’s video, we can
            >> hear Tyson communicating with Gary Cordes.

            Yes. I think it’s been established that the AUDIO track for that video does, in fact, capture Aaron Hulburd’s radio broadcasting what Tyson Esquibel is saying to Gary Cordes AS he is actually driving by Aaron Hulburd’s camera.

    • Marti Reed says

      Thanks for writing this up, WTKTT!

      It’s getting way past my bedtime, and so I’m a little bit brain-dead, but.

      It really is harrowing to read this. I’ve read it before, but thanks for posting it.

      I’m still not finding what you were “quoting” when you wrote down below the thing about the “white helmet.” Be that as it may.

      You wrote:

      “This actually MATCHES some research that Marti did on Tyson Esquibel’s whereabouts in this timeframe and the stillframes Marti extracted from one of the Aaaron Hulburd M2Uxxxx videos which shows ( apparently ) the same YELLOW-HELMET FF with the chest harness seen out in the Youth Camp area standing back there by the Shrine just a little later.”

      That’s not quite correct. Actually it’s pretty jumbled. What I was describing, regarding the yellow-helmeted guy with the chest harness standing on the right side of the Blue Ridge UTV in the clearing at the Youth Camp, about five minutes before we see everybody coming out into the Shrine area, is Papich’s photo IMG_3955.jpg.

      That’s the guy that, once upon a time, long ago, you had said you thought was Tyson Esquibel, via seeing him in one of Tom Story’s photos of the various and sundry fire-fighters in the Ranch House Restaurant parking lot. Which is probably true.

      And so I had asked you how you had identified that person as being Tyson Esquibel, because I hadn’t been able to FOR CERTAIN make that identification, even though, all things considered, it’s probably true.

      Regarding Tyson Esquibel “standing back there by the Shrine just a little later.” No.

      What I said was that, in Aaron’s video you can see Tyson Esquibel being the one coming out just in front of Brian and Trew and just behind the crew [that had been in danger in Harper Canyon} walking out.

      By “being the one coming out” I mean the vehicle that he was driving that day (the big Glendale truck) is seen right in front of Trew and Frisby on their UTV.

      NOT that he was “standing back there by the Shrine just a little later.”

      And, given what I am seeing in Aaron’s videos, I am not seeing a correlation between what Brandon is saying and what I am seeing in those videos. But that’s something that I am, at the moment, too tired and too past my bedtime and too brain-dead to go into at this time. But I probably will tomorrow.

      I had just, about 20 minutes before I started writing this, replied to TTWARE’s comment down below about the “Incident Commander” thing. I had said that I didn’t remember that having seriously entered into the conversation. I guess that’s because I, knowing that the Incident Commander was nowhere near this Youth Camp area, didn’t take that seriously. I guess I don’t remember that having been much of an issue on here. But maybe for some it was.

      This whole thing is such a serious mess. I really hope that sometime somehow someway (especially since Mosesso has denied AZDF’s attempt to get it “erased,” it gets truly INVESTIGATED.

      I truly believe there are a number of Lessons Learned that really need to be learned from this. On a whole bunch of sides and levels and whatevers.

      But the various and sundry narratives of it are so conflicted, at this point, and the visual record is so not in sync with those narratives, that I just see this as, at this point, a whole big jumble.

      It’s really frustrating, and it’s seriously time for me to go to bed.

      • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

        **
        ** SO WHERE DID THE ‘WHITE HELMET’ REFERENCE COME FROM?

        I was typing this last response in the series while you were typing.

        I probably should have posted this first since the whole “white helmet” thing is what you were most concerned about down below.

        Last but not least… here is that other question that was asked on this same side-thread about that mysterious Youth Camp person…

        Reply to Marti Reed post on May 29, 2015 at 7:49 pm

        >> Marti said…
        >>
        >> WTKTT, you said:
        >>
        >> “…someone who they have identified as their own ‘group supervisor’
        >> with a ‘white helmet’ appeared and started ordering them to get their
        >> two vehicles out of there immediately.”
        >>
        >> I know this is a picky little detail down here in the weeds, but since I
        >> care a lot about this, your “white helmet” in quotes caught my attention.

        Yes… and as it turns out… that was a ‘brain fart’ on my part.

        Bob Brandon himself does not actually use the words ‘white helmet’.

        We don’t have him using that exact description in any of his accounts about this person who was ordering him to abandon his crewmates.

        What we DO have ( from Bob Brandon ) are the following two descriptions…

        1) “Incident Commander” – From his own story at the Yarnell Recovery Site
        2) “Our Group Supervisor” – From the Daily Courier article.

        The ‘white helmet’ reference first popped in relation to this Bob Brandon account for the following two reasons…

        1) It might explain Brandon mistakenly describing the person he is talking about as an “Incident Commander”. We knew that Tony Sciacca was there in that area but it still wasn’t clear if Sciacca had ever made it all the way back to the Youth Camp to even BE someone telling Brandon to do anything.

        2) For a while… it looked like that ‘mystery person’ standing near the Polaris Ranger back in the Youth Camp had on a WHITE HELMET. Consensus now is that it is definitely a YELLOW helmet on that person.

        So good catch… and file that one away under ‘brain fart’.

        Bob Brandon described this mystery person with terms like “Incident Commander” and “Our Group Supervisor”… but he never actually said he was wearing any particular kind of head gear or helmet color.

        >> Marti also said…
        >>
        >> Also, when I read “white helmet.” I went scurrying back to look at
        >> the photos of Frisby and Trew and the UTV at, and fleeing from,
        >> the Youth Camp.
        >>
        >> In the image of them riding through the embers, Frisby has his
        >> typical black baseball cap on and Trew has a blue helmet on (which
        >> he had on, apparently, all day).
        >>
        >> Neither probably even OWNS a white helmet, I would bet.

        Correct… and it’s worth noting down here again that in Bob Brandon’s own account in his own words… he definitely could identify the ‘Blue Ridge Hotshots’ versus other people out there and there’s no reason to believe he could have accidentally been identifying any Blue Ridge Hotshot as either an “Incident Commander” or “Our Group Supervisor”.

        >> Marti also wrote…
        >>
        >> Also, I went back and looked at that image of the UTV in the middle
        >> of the clearing at the Youth Camp. After all of this convo, it was
        >> interesting to look at it again.
        >>
        >> I had white-balanced the image awhile back when I was trying to figure
        >> out who was in it.
        >>
        >> The guy standing to the right of the UTV (who, I think you once said
        >> you thought was, based on photos from the Ranch House Restaurant
        >> Parking Lot, Tyson Esquibel) has a YELLOW helmet on, not a white one.

        I agree. I thought ( myself ) it might have been WHITE but having done a lot of color balancing I think its pretty safe to say it’s a YELLOW Helmet on that FF.

        >> Marti also said…
        >>
        >> They guy standing to the left of the UTV has a RED helmet on.
        >> And I have NO CLUE who that is.

        That actually COULD be either Bob Brandon or Matt Keehner.

        What is absolutely astounding is that these photos were never showed to the people who were known to have been out in that Youth Camp area at that time… in order to identify exactly WHO these FFs are in these photos.

        That could still be done.

        Whoever was out there having these conversations near the Polaris Ranger
        should be able to recall those moments and who else was standing there.

        Maybe not by full first or last names.. but definitely WHO ‘in general’ was there.

        >> Marti also said…
        >>
        >> This photo was taken about, I think, five minutes before we see all
        >> these trucks and crews coming out of the area on the Aaron Hulburd videos.

        Yes.

        >> Marti also said…
        >>
        >> That YELLOW helmet was, I think, another of the reasons I didn’t
        >> think it was Tony Sciacca, way back when when we were discussing
        >> whether or not it was him. (Of course, at that time I had NO IDEA
        >> what Tony looked like but I didn’t think he would have been wearing
        >> a yellow helmet).

        Gotcha. A lot of this is coming back to me now.

        The reasons I thought it COULD have been Tony Sciacca back there giving
        those orders to Bob Brandon were at least twofold…

        1) We KNOW from Sciacca’s own testimony he was in the general area. We
        just didn’t know at that time how far back he’d ever gotten on Shrine Road.

        2) We KNOW Sciacca was wearing a WHITE HELMET and so could have
        easily been either mis-identified as an IC or a ‘Group Supervisor’… OR he
        might have even been identifying himself to others that way.

        The second round of Aarron Hulburd videos that were released pretty much
        proves that Tony Sciacca never really did get any farther west on Shrine
        Road than the parking lot of the St. Joseph Shrine.

        So WHITE helmet or not… Sciacca really could NOT have been the person
        back there at the Youth Camp ordering Bob Brandon and Matt Keehner to
        abandon their crewmates.

        I believe that’s the current consensus as far as Sciacca goes on this part of the story.

        >> Marti also said…
        >>
        >> But I knew at the time that it’s still hard to tell. But I now TRULY
        >> don’t believe anybody with a “White Helmet” (i.e. the official color
        >> of major OVERHEAD — for a REASON) was anywhere near the
        >> Youth Camp at that time.

        Well.. we can now see with our own eyes ( in the additional Aaron Hulburd videos ) that Tony Sciacca ( with HIS WHITE HELMET ) was very much ‘near the Youth Camp at that time’.

        The parking lot of the St. Joseph Shrine was just several hundred feet to the east of the entranceway to the Youth Camp.

        >> Marti also said…
        >>
        >> So that’s why I’m interested in where you got the “white helmet.”
        >> Was it from another article or something?

        No. It was from the tangled recesses of my brain and the many conversations we’ve had trying to figure out why Brandon might have mis-identified this ‘mystery person’ as an “Incident Commander”.

        Talking to a person with a WHITE Helmet might explain such a mis-identification… but now we are actually pretty short on people known to be wearing WHITE Helmets who can be placed all the way back at the Youth Camp at ANY time that day.

        So scratch the original thinking.

        Whatever was causing Bob Brandon to be mis-identifying this person who was ordering him to abandon his crewmates as an “Incident Commander” probably had nothing to do with the color of his helmet.

        >> Marti also said…
        >>
        >> BTW I think the paragraph from the article above pretty much
        >> kills any idea that it was Frisby. It essentially says Group Supervisor
        >> twice. That Group Supervisor would never have been Brian Frisby.

        I agree… and in Bob Brandon’s own account on the Yarnell Recovery Website he also makes it pretty darn clear that he knew exactly what the Blue Ridge Hotshots looked like and when he was seeing or talking to any of them.

        >> Marti also said…
        >>
        >> And since it wasn’t Gary Cordes (because he wasn’t there), it
        >> had to have been Tyson Esquibel, who, by the way, is seen in
        >> the Hulburd videos driving out JUST AHEAD of Brian and Trew
        >> and just AFTER the crew on foot walking out.

        Correct… and that puts us back were we left it before.

        All things considered… the MOST LIKELY candidate for this mysterious IC and/or “Group Supervisor” who was telling Bob Brandon and Matt Keehner to abandon their crewmates is Taks Force Leader Trainee Tyson Esquibel.

        The LEAST LIKELY candidate would be either Blue Ridge Superintendent Brian Frisby or Blue Ridge Captain Trueheart Brown.

        But instead of even lifting a finger to try and VERIFY anything… Kyle Dickman just went with the LEAST LIKELY candidate and says in his PUBLISHED work that it is a FACT that it was Brian Frisby.

        I would really, really, really, really like to know what Mr. Brian Frisby himself has to say about that.

        • Marti Reed says

          Thanks for hanging in there on this, WTKTT!

          I think we’re pretty much on the same page now.

          To be perfectly honest, it was this whole thing that, essentially, made me mostly lose interest in the book. I just found it appalling.

          And now I’m thinking the only way it makes sense is that the guy in the video standing near the engine is NOT Esquibel, because it IS Esquibel driving “his” truck out AFTER that other guy was captured in the video. And, yeah, I remember there were a number of guys rigged like that in the Ranch House Restaurant Parking Lot. And I, at the time, had no clue who any of them were.

          • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

            Another thing that is astounding with regards to the Kyle Dickman book is that there is no evidence whatsoever that this former Hotshot who is now saying he was trying to write the “Definitive account of the Yarnell Hill Fire” every lifted a finger to even TRY and talk to ANY of the Blue Ridge Hotshots.

            So here’s a Hotshot writing a book about Hotshots for other Hotshots and he never even lifted a finger to talk to the OTHER Hotshots who not only saved Brendan’s life but were the first FFs to be on the ground next to the bodies at the deployment site?

            Really?

            It would not have surprised me to read in his ‘sources’ section the same thing you can read in the ADOSH report… that every attempt was made to interview Blue Ridge Hotshots but U.S. Forestry did everything possible to prevent it.

            What DOES surprise me is that this Dickman guy apparently didn’t even TRY… and is perfectly comfortable just making his own assumptions about what Brian Frisby did or didn’t do that day… and that he was definitely the one telling other FFs to abandon their crewmates becase (quote) “They can’t run that fast”.

            ** KYLE DICKMAN SOUNDS OFF ON CNN

            By the way… have you seen this CNN article published just a few days ago.. on the day before Brendan’s last blown depostion ( May 27 )?

            It’s Kyle Dickman himself “going off” on homeowners ( in general ) and telling them to STOP even expecting firefighters to ever try and protect their homes OR their property.

            CNN
            Article Title: Stop expecting firefighters to save your homes
            By Kyle Dickman
            Posted/Updated 8:03 AM ET, Wed May 27, 2015

            http://www.cnn.com/2015/05/27/opinions/dickman-wildfire-threat/index.html

      • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

        >> Marti wrote…
        >>
        >> And, given what I am seeing in Aaron’s videos, I am not seeing a
        >> correlation between what Brandon is saying and what I am seeing
        >> in those videos.

        I hear ya.

        SOME of what we can now see happening in the most recent Aaron Hulburd video releases matches Bob Brandon’s description(s) of what went down that afternoon… but SOME of it does NOT.

        We CAN see a group of FFs on foot sort of ‘catching up’ to the trucks there in the St. Joseph Shrine parking lot. This DOES match part of Brandon’s description… and especially the part where one of the FFs on foot seems to do a “What the FUCK!” gesture out ahead to the FFs standing by the vehicle.

        That would match Brandon’s recollection that the FFs who had to run for their lives out of Harper Canyon were pretty PISSED when they discovered that they HAD been ‘left behind’; and the vehicles were not where they were expecting them to be.

        But as far as them running into this “Incident Commander” person there in the St. Joseph Shrine parking lot… I’m not really seeing that moment captured in the videos… if it even happened.

        I think the bottom line on this sub-thread is that we determined quite some time ago that it IS still possible to cut through the confusion and the conflicting reports and find out exactly what happened out there in the Youth Camp / Shrine Road area… but it’s going to take more interviews with the people involved.

        The SAIT and ADOSH investigators simply never got down to brass tacks on what was really happening there in that area. ADOSH heard enough to justify a workplace safety citation… and that’s all they are required to do.

        But the REAL truth ( and the maximum Lessons Learned ) relies on someone conducting more interviews with the participants.

        That’s what’s really sad to me.

        That Kyle Dickman would not only not even feel the need to lift a finger to try and figure this out even for a tome he was going to call a “definitive account of the Yarnell Hill Fire”… but that he went for the “easy way out’ and just put it all onto Brian Frisby… who apparently still can’t even open his mouth to defend himself without risking the loss of his job.

        It’s gonna get really, really intesting soon with regards to Frisby and Brown and Ball and the rest of the Blue Ridge Hotshots.

        Are we really going to see them testifying in any of the upcoming proceedings.. or not? Cant the FEDS really keep them bottled up for much longer?

  20. Marti Reed says

    And, PS.

    I can’t remember amid all the jumble.

    Is the June 1 date for the “global mediation” session still on, or has that been postponed, again, also?

    • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

      AFAWK… it is still ON.

      But there is no time to get the McDonough deposition stuff resolved unless they just put pedal to the metal and “get ‘er dun”.

      So just like the deposition situation in February whereby they were waiting until February 26 to depose Brendan and they had ‘global mediation’ just days later on March 2…

      it’s now “Deja Vu all over again”.

      They have blown their chance to depose Brendan and find out what he knows just days ( hours? ) before they have to sit across the table from the ‘wrongful death’ plaintiffs again.

      And once again… they will be staring across the table at the ‘wrongful death’ plaintiffs WITHOUT knowing what Brendan McDonough actually knows.

      If the fact that everyone has had to wait another 3 months just to be back in the EXACT same set of circumstances they were in on February 26 through March 2 wasn’t so SAD… it would be LAUGHABLE.

      The freeze in the court calendar for the ‘wrongful death’ suits extends to the end of June, I believe… so it’s possible what could happen here is that Arizona Forestry will now CANCEL the June 1 mediation session and try to use all of June to get Brendan deposed again.

      I would imagine this really has to be IT for them ( Arizona Forestry ).

      I can’t imagine the Judges involved here granting yet ANOTHER stay in the court calendars just because these attorneys can’t get their shit together.

      • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

        >> WTKTT…
        >>
        >> attorneys can’t get their shit together.

        What I actually meant by that is that until we find out more about what really happened yesterday… we are now supposed to believe that the same set of attorneys that have been trying to get the same witness into a room since October of 2014… and who were ‘ready to go’ with the actual depostion upwards of TWO times prior to yesterday…

        …are only NOW (suddenly) arguing about WHO gets to be ‘in the room’ and what questions can/should be asked?

        They have had TWO prior attempts to do the same exact thing they were supposed to do yesterday… and only NOW they are still trying to work out VERY basic details like who gets to ask what questions?

        Give.Me.A.Freakin’.Break.

        There HAS to be much more to this story than we know yet.

        It really CAN’T be that these attorney are THIS incompetent.

        • Marti Reed says

          Thank you!

          And yes: “Give.Me.A.Freakin’.Break.”

          And yes: “There HAS to be much more to this story than we know yet.”

          • Marti Reed says

            “There HAS to be much more to this story than we know yet.”

            I’m thinking there might be a really interesting article in the Arizona Republic/AZCentral on Sunday.

            But I could be wrong.

            Still, something to potentially look forward to.

      • Marti Reed says

        That’s exactly why I asked TWICE today:

        “Marti Reed says
        MAY 29, 2015 AT 11:51 AM

        Also,

        Marti Reed says MAY 29, 2015 AT 11:12 AM

        What I’m wondering now is (because I don’t understand this stuff) what are Mosesso’s options/obligations in all of this?

        Can he just order BOOM this is going to happen on this day at this time and determine who can be there and who can ask questions and who has to or doesn’t have to supply their questions to whom in advance?

        Just to get the darn thing DONE????”

        • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

          Reply to Marti Reed post on May 29, 2015 at 10:10 pm

          >> Marti said…
          >>
          >> What I’m wondering now is (because I don’t understand this
          >> stuff) what are Mosesso’s options/obligations in all of this?
          >>
          >> Can he just order BOOM this is going to happen on this day
          >> at this time and determine who can be there and who can
          >> ask questions and who has to or doesn’t have to supply
          >> their questions to whom in advance?

          No. Not really.

          He can supply the RULINGS that establish those parameters as he is requested to supply them… but he cannot DICTATE to counsel how they should go about practicing their own profession(s).

          >> Marti also said…
          >>
          >> Just to get the darn thing DONE????”

          It doesn’t really matter to him whether the ‘damn thing gets done’, or not.

          His job is really pretty simply.

          ADOSH issued some citations and some fines already.

          The Employer in question is totally disagreeing with everything that ADOSH has come with and they don’t want to pay a DIME.

          The Judge has to eventually just decide whether the citations and the fines should remain ‘as is’… or get ‘adjusted’ in some way.

          The Judge has NO obligation to help one side or the other.

          It’s complicated.

          He CAN order someone to testify ( issue a subpoena )… but only if he is ASKED to. He can’t initiate anything like that on his own.

  21. WantsToKnowTheTruth says

    **
    ** ARIZONA FORESTRY REQUEST FOR DISMISSAL OF
    ** TWO OF THE ADOSH CITATIONS HAS BEEN DENIED.

    >> On May 28, 2015 at 5:15 pm, WTKTT said…
    >>
    >> I think it’s worth mentioning that what is still being tossed back and forth here ( and
    >> what Judge Michael Mosesso has apparently still not issued a ruling on ) is whether
    >> Arizona Forestry is going to get its way and have some of the sub-items of ADOSH
    >> Citation 1 dismissed before things ever get to the ‘evidentiary’ part of this
    >> appeal process.

    I was wrong.

    I posted that yesterday before reading all the way through one of the new ALJ Hearing File documents that showed up online yesterday afternoon.

    In the document named “2015_05 Updated 05.26.15.pdf” posted just yesterday… there IS a copy of a RULING on this from Judge Mosesso.

    That document is sitting at the bottom of the public ALJ Hearing File at…

    https://sites.google.com/site/yarnellhillinformation/home/yarnellhillaljhearingfile

    Judge Mosesso has flat-out DENIED the request from Arizona Forestry to ‘dimisss’ ADOSH Citations 1(b) and 1(c).

    On page 46 ( of 143 pages )…
    ———————————————————————–
    ORDER

    IT IS ORDERED Respondent’s ( Arizona Forestry’s ) Motions to delete ( ADOSH ) Citation Item 1(b) and Item 1(c) are DENIED.

    By: MICHAEL A. MOSESSO
    Administrative Law Judge
    ———————————————————————–

    Arizona Forestry’s ‘Motion to Delete/Dismiss’ ADOSH Citation Item 1(b) is the one where the Arizona Forestry lawyers were selling the snake oil that because Brendan McDonough himself never (technically) told ADOSH he thought he was in any danger on the afternoon of Sunday, June 30, 2013… that ADOSH had no right to conclude that he might have been ( in danger ).

    Arizona Forestry’s ‘Motion to Delete/Dismiss’ ADOSH Citation Item 1(c) is the one where the Arizona Forestry lawyers were selling the snake oil that because no resources were ever actually ‘officially’ assigned to Division Z… that the citation for FFs being in danger in Harper Canyon should be dismissed because those guys were not ‘officially’ part of Division ‘Z’.

    Judge Mosesso himself described this piece of creative mental gymnastics and legal cliff-diving as the “Phantom Resources” issue.

    Judge Moseso’s ruling says that both of these claims are complete horseshit, and the original ADOSH Citations Item 1(b) and Item 1(c) will NOT be ‘dismissed’.

    Arizona Forestry can still try some other arguments at the Hearing itself to get these Citations mitigated or dismissed… but this ‘snake oil’ they just tried to sell has been recognized as such by Judge Moseso.

    The Kyle Dickman book is not mentioned, but as if there weren’t plenty of other reasons to dismiss the Item 1(b) Citation already… Kyle Dickman’s interviews with Brendan and his recounting of the events of Sunday afternoon directly contradict the claim that Arizona Forestry was making about Brendan not being in any danger.

    Brendan was in DEEP SHIT that afternoon… and ( even according to Kyle Dickman’s new book ) he KNEW IT. So it is unlikely Arizona Forestry will even TRY this argument again based on the testimony from Brendan that has now been published in Kyle Dickman’s book.

    The ADOSH citation for just that ‘needlessly unsafe workplace’ violation and just that one potential entrapment situation is going to stand ‘as is’… at least until this all gets to an official HEARING.

    • Marti Reed says

      Good catch, thanks!

      I hadn’t had time to read all the way through, either backwards or forwards, the whole file.

      And, actually, I’m not terribly surprised. Mosesso has, apparently, been “around the block” a few times with these lawyers.

      • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

        I think it’s worth noting that even if Judge Mosesso hadn’t ruled on this yet… the fact that Kyle Dickman’s book is now published and it is PRIMARILY based on extensive in-person interviews with McDonough would be enough of a reason to keep the ADOSH Item 1(b) Citation firmly in place.

        Kyle Dickman doesn’t just back up everything ADOSH had to say about Brendan being in real danger that day.

        Kyle Dickman’s ‘imagineering’ even extends to saying that Brendan was basically TERRIFIED as he came literally RUNNING off of his Lookout Mound and HAULING ASS down towards that ‘T’ intersection where he was going to accidentally run into Brian Frisby.

        If that isn’t true… then it’s now Brendan himself who has to take issue with Kyle Dickman’s ‘imagineering’.

        • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

          Followup…

          The day before Dickman’s book was actually published some parts of his ‘Foreword’ were published.

          That’s where Dickman describes McDonough’s evacuation as a MAD DASH and that Brendan was so freaked out at that point that Dickman uses words like RUNNING and STUMBLING and SWATTING aside the brush as he tore down the mound toward the old-grader.

          From a comment down below in this chapter I made on May 11, 2015…

          http://www.investigativemedia.com/yarnell-hill-fire-chapter-xiv/#comment-295270

          —————————————————————–
          Kyle Dickman is (apparently) characterizing Brendan’s evacuation as some actual MAD DASH down from the mound with Brendan actually SPRINTING ( Dickman’s word ) down towards the old-grader location and just frantically ‘swatting’ the vegetation out of his way because he was already sort of ‘freaking out’… or something… and that by the time he arrived where Frisby was about to pick him up… he ( Brendan ) KNEW his chances of either out-running the fire OR surviving a deployment by that old-grader were (quote) “NOT POSSIBLE” and “GRIM”.

          From what was published this morning…
          —————————————————————-
          Donut dropped off the back side of the granite knoll and started sprinting through brush so dry it cracked as he swatted it aside. Em­bers and ash drifted over his head. He plowed through the bushes toward a small clearing around the metal skeleton of a long-abandoned road grader.

          As he stumbled into the clearing, Donut suddenly realized it wasn’t possible to outrun the blaze—a nightmare scenario for every wildland firefighter, made worse by the fact that the clearing, his only chance for survival, was barely the size of a tennis court. He couldn’t outrun the fire. Flames had halved the distance between the drainage and the clearing in minutes. The wind thrashed the walls of scrub oaks and manzanita bushes surrounding the grader. Even if Donut deployed his fire shelter, an aluminum shield designed to deflect heat, his chances of surviving a burnover were grim. Marsh knew as much, too.
          ——————————————————————

          That totally contradicts everything Arizona Forestry was recently trying to establish in their ‘motion to dismiss’ that McDonough-related ADOSH citation.

          Arizona Forestry’s total ‘grounds’ for asking for dismissal was to tell Judge Mosesso that since there is no testimony from Brendan in either of his ADOSH interviews that HE was ever concerned about HIS situation at all that day… that that means there were no grounds for ADOSH to issue a citation relating to his possible entrapment that day.

          Looks like the Arizona Forestry lawyers forgot to actually check with Brendan before they submitted that bullshit to Judge Mosesso.
          —————————————————————————

          So given that actual recounting of Brendan’s situation by Kyle Dickman himself… I wouldn’t want to be any Arizona Forestry lawyer still trying to argue that just because Brendan never actually told any ADOSH investigator he was ‘afraid’ that afternoon… that he was in “no danger”.

        • Marti Reed says

          Mosesso may be a lot of things, all things considered.

          But, clearly, one of thing he is NOT is….

          stupid.

          • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

            Agreed… but in all honesty… he doesn’t get a whole lot of points for timely reactions, either. He really is either so busy he can’t issue rulings in less than a week… or he’s just plain LAZY.

    • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

      Whoops. TYPO above. Left the word NOT out of a sentence and changed its meaning.

      Paragraph above should have read like this…

      The Kyle Dickman book is not mentioned, but as if there weren’t plenty of other reasons to NOT dismiss the Item 1(b) Citation already… Kyle Dickman’s interviews with Brendan and his recounting of the events of Sunday afternoon directly contradict the claim that Arizona Forestry was making about Brendan not being in any danger.

  22. Marti Reed says

    On May 28, 2015 at 5:02 PM, WTKTT wrote:

    “The only BIG difference between now and then is that Prescott City Attorney Jon Paladini has spilled his guts about what Darrell Willis told him and the fact that McDonough now wants to “get stuff off his chest”.

    I’m not 100 percent sure how that Paladini moment could have changed things to the point where suddenly Arizona Forestry doesn’t even WANT the ADOSH lawyers to ask any/all questions of McDonough…”

    This is so convoluted. Tell me if I have something wrong here.

    Way back in October, AZDF (I think I’m gonna stick with that acronym going forward) was notified, if I recall correctly, that Brendan had this story he wanted to tell, and so THEN AZDF decided they wanted him to be deposed so they could be aware of what was in that story before they had to go forward and prepare for the trials and the ADOSH vs AZDF tribunal.

    So then Brendan got himself a new lawyer who had a problem with that date, and the deposition was postponed, much to AZDF’s consternation.

    They wanted that deposition so SO BADLY that they pushed for a subpoena of Brendan. Mosesso wouldn’t issue a subpoena.

    Then the February deposition got cancelled, apparently, because Brendan’s “therapist” “said” it would amplify Brendan’s PTSD.

    Then it got rescheduled for May about the time the news was saying Brendan would testify if he legally had to.

    So, I’m not seeing anything here that seems to be related to Paladini’s “spilling of his guts.” Nothing in that would have been NEWS to AZDF, unless I’m missing something. It was only NEWS to the public.

    Is it possible that the thing that has changed is that, up until “now” (or until that somewhat mysterious-t0-me statement from Shapiro that Brendan would testify if legally required) AZDF was assuming that only THEIR lawyers would be involved in the deposition?

    I’ve never been clear on this whole thing. I’ve never been clear on WHO was supposed to/allowed to be asking the questions in the deposition.

    And, at some point in the past couple of months the understanding was that there was an argument going on because AZDF was insisting that only THEY would be questioning Brendan (or even PRESENT at the deposition), and then, at least as I recall, that somehow changed. But I don’t recall where/how “we” knew about that.

    I think they’ve NEVER wanted anybody else to question Brendan, and maybe they were assuming that that was going to be the way the deposition would be managed, and then something changed about THAT, and that’s what this is all about.

    Am I somehow not getting this right?

    • says

      Also, on May 28, 2015 at 11:22 PM WTKTT wrote:

      “What’s really bizarre about what happened TODAY is to wonder WHY, all of a sudden, it was even an issue WHO would be allowed to be at the deposition and be asking questions.

      It certainly wasn’t an issue back in February of 2015 and up to just 48 hours before the previously scheduled deposition.

      All the ‘lawyers’ were ‘good to go’ for THAT under-oath depostion with no one having a cow about who might be going to ask what questions.”

      That relates, also, to what I wrote above.

      Just pulling this conversation together into one place.

      • Bob Powers says

        Additional Point

        Both Willis and Paladini went to the City Council and To the State Attorney with Brendan’s revelations. So they have all of that info before the News release by Paladini.

        • Marti Reed says

          Bob~

          See below where WTKTT explains to me that even though Willis and Paladini told AZDF, et al, about Brendan having a story to tell, they didn’t tell them WHAT the story was.

          So now I’m agreeing that Paladini’s public bombshell about what the story WAS may have had something to do with AZDF all of a sudden getting freaked out about who would be involved in Brendan’s May deposition.

          • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

            Keep in mind that even at the time these ‘revelations’ appeared in the ALJ Hearing File ( that Paladini and Willis had informed Arizona Forestry Brendan had something he wanted to “get off his chest” )… it was impossible to tell how MUCH Paladini and Willis had told Arizona Forestry… particularly AZF attorney David Selden.

            AZF Attorney Dave Selden was the one who was ‘authoring’ those memos to Judge Mosesso and the one who was making all the arguments to Mosesso about how important it was to have Brendan subpoenaed

            But even I am the one who said it appeared that AZF Attorney Daid Selden “knew more than he was willing to say”.

            Bottom line here is that we still do NOT KNOW how much Selden really knew ‘back then’… when he was asking Mosesso to subpoena Brendan.

            But it DOES APPEAR as if Selden knew ONLY that Brendan has some very important ‘additional information’ that he overheard on the crew intra-net… but neither Paladini nor Willis had mentioned the infamous ARGUMENT or the ORDER from Marsh.

            THAT was the WTF moment even for Arizona Forestry when Paladini suddenly ( and still inexplicably? ) decided to spill his guts to the media.

            I am still just GUESSING that this WTF moment is what has ‘changed things’ with regards to Brendan’s deposition… but I can’t think of anything else that WOULD have suddenly made it very important to Arizona Forestry that they now CONTROL this deposition in ways they didn’t seem concerned about back on February 26, 2015.

            Maybe before Paladini spilled his guts to the media… the Arizona Forestry lawyers were not even taking seriously what SAIT Co-Lead Mike Dudley said almost a year ago about people saying they “heard an argument at the saddle”.

            Maybe the Arizona Forestry lawyers were answering their own “what’s the worse that could happen” question regarding Brendan’s untold knowledge with something along the lines of… “So Brendan tells us that Marsh was out in front of Steed. So what”.

            But the moment Paladini is now saying that there is a good possibility Brendan McDonough will testify ( under oath ) that Arizona Forestry Management ( DIVSA Eric Marsh ) actually ORDERED those men to come down into that death trap…

            …everything changed.

            That’s a total game changer for any set of lawyers trying to sit across the table from some angry families suing your agency for ‘wrongful death’.

            • Marti Reed says

              You wrote:

              “But it DOES APPEAR as if Selden knew ONLY that Brendan has some very important ‘additional information’ that he overheard on the crew intra-net… but neither Paladini nor Willis had mentioned the infamous ARGUMENT or the ORDER from Marsh.

              THAT was the WTF moment even for Arizona Forestry when Paladini suddenly ( and still inexplicably? ) decided to spill his guts to the media.”

              Given that the SAIT leader, Mike Dudley, essentially “bombshelled” that Utah gathering of wildland firefighters way back in June 2014 with the “news” that there were “unconfirmed” “rumors” (based on a video that, apparently was circulating and still hasn’t been made public) of an “argument” between Eric Marsh and Jesse Steed, and that that “bombshell” was kind of “rocketing” back and forth over the Internet, I find it hard to believe that “no-one” at AZDF was paying any attention to that.

              As a matter of fact, I think I have it reliably in my memory banks that there is documentation that AZDF was trying to acquire that video and possibly some information regarding it.

              I think I read that somewhere in the ADOSH site documentation.

              So I find it hard to believe that there were no conversations going on between AZDF and their lawyers about the “high possibility” that that argument may have occurred between Marsh and Steed. From about June into about October when this whole thing was emerging.

              S0 starting there, and narrowing it down, it appears to me, right now, that the point of OMFG has to do with “THE ORDER from Marsh to Steed” part of what Palladino said was part of “the story” that Brendan wanted to “get off his chest.”

              Which DOES boomerang back to AZDF, since Eric, having been designated as Division Supervisor, was, at that point of designation, not only an employee of AZDF, but also then a part of the Incident Management Team.

              Major deal. For AZDF.

              If it is true that a member of the Incident Management Team ORDERED the Supervisor of an Interagency Hotshot Crew to do something that clearly put their lives in danger, that a WHOLE DIFFERENT BALLGAME, I would think, potentially legally.

              Of course that all leads back into the whole realm of “You have the right and the responsibility to turn down unsafe orders” yada yada yada yada yada.

              But even given that, I’m at this moment in time thinking that possible ORDER is the thing AZDF is choking up on and freaking out about.

              • says

                So, yes, I am agreeing with you.

                It’s the ORDER.

                That’s the game-changer.

                So, now, I’m sitting here thinking about that.

                And Brendan.

                Still a bit befuddled and thinking “out loud.”

                So, apparently, via all of this (but we still don’t have a deposition so we still DON’T KNOW) Brendan heard Eric Marsh order Jesse Steed to bring the crew “down” towards the Boulder Springs Ranch.

                We still don’t know whether that happened while they were still “up in the black” or “down at the saddle.”

                We’ve been “hunching” that, all things considered, the “argument” happened at the saddle.

                So what Brendan apparently “knows” is that this ORDER happened, and when it happened.

                So he’s been carrying this apparently heard “ORDER” around inside his head all this time, while espousing to the public (possibly understandably) that he though his leaders were doing/deciding the right thing; while not divulging to the ADOSH investigation (also possibly understandably at that time, but definitely not the RIGHT THING TO DO) (and all of this, apparently, while retaining LAWYERS who were. apparently, ADVISING him) that he knew this ORDER had taken place……..

                WHEW.

                Apparently, he really really really really really really really didn’t want anybody to know about that ORDER (even possibly himself, which, having been thru my share of PTSD and survivor guilt I understand the psychology), but something inside himself (and possibly a bunch of external pressure, as in, COME ON BRENDAN QUIT SITTING ON THE TRUTH WHICH WE THE FAMILIES REALLY REALLY REALLY WANT TO KNOW) just couldn’t keep living with that cognitive dissonance.

                And so FINALLY he has prepared himself to stand up in front of those various lawyers and those in-house microphones and talk about that and answer WHOMEVER’S questions. And talk as honestly (given the questions that would probably be lobbed at him) about that day.

                However much it may be inferred that he’s been gaming the system and the writers and the lawyers and the agencies in order to protect his own framework of “His Leaders Could Do No Wrong” and enjoying the benefits of all of that (the HERO mythology around Fire-fighters)…..

                …….that experience has come at an increasing cost to him.

                I really really really really hope Judge Mosesso choses to END ALL THE GAME PLAYING and order this deposition to occur as soon as possible. And let the chips fall where they may.

                That really needs to happen. ASAP.

                • says

                  And I’m really really really sick of this software automatically and mindlessly attaching this deleted Website thingy to my posts and therefore painting my name in red.

                  JD???????????

    • The Truth Will Always Remain Elusive says

      Both sides are allowed to be at depositions and ask questions. Otherwise, it is something that could not be referred to in court.

      The earlier depositions were scheduled before the “global mediation” efforts began. My speculation is that it’s highly likely that the rest of the global mediation lawyers (other than ADF and ADOSH) wanted to get in on the current deposition and THAT is what is causing the current dust-up.

      • Marti Reed says

        Thank you, and yes that makes sense.

        The “party” has increasingly gotten out of AZDF’s “control.”

        • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

          According the article in the Prescott Daily Courier that REPORTED the new deposition that was supposed to happen yesterday… PDC reporter Joanna Dodder Nellans says flat-out that the ‘global mediation’ is, in fact, a pretty BIG PARTY.

          Joanna Dodder Nellans says the ‘global mediation’ not only involves lawyers and plaintiffs for ALL of the following…

          1) “Arizona Forestry vs. ADOSH” ( Citation challenges. HEARING only. )
          2) Wrongful Death Lawsuits against Arizona Forestry ( Civil Court case )
          3) Property Damage lawsuits against Arizona Forestry ( Civil Court case ).

          The Prescott Daily Courier
          Article Title: Hotshot survivor agrees to May deposition
          Published: 5/14/2015 11:25:00 PM by Joanna Dodder Nellans
          http://dcourier.com/main.asp?SectionID=1&subsectionID=1086&articleID=145284

          From the article…
          ———————————————————————-
          Selden told the administrative law judge that he wants the deposition to take place before a June 1 mediation session. The global mediation will involve the ADOSH appeal as well as related lawsuits filed by more than 160 Yarnell property owners and 12 of the families of the fallen hotshots against State Forestry.
          ———————————————————————-

          So TTWARE might be right.

          This same “List of contestants” for the ‘global mediation’ might have also suddenly decided they all wanted to be “in the room” for Brendan’s deposition as well.

          Ya know… at this point… I don’t know why Judge Mosesso ( in the AZF versus ADOSH case ) doesn’t just say to everyone…

          We are GOING to have a HEARING ( no early citation dismissals ).
          We are GOING to call all kinds of witnesses ( like EVERYONE ).
          I am GOING to allow the PUBLIC to attend ALL Hearing sessions.
          I am GOING to allow Network Television cameras in the courtroom.
          I am GOING to allow all witness sessions to be televised.

          So everyone can just ‘get over it’.

          We are going LIVE with this.
          Make sure you all have your High-Definition TV makeup kits by then.

          • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

            SIDENOTE: How much you want to bet that if Judge Moseso did do anything even remotely resembling what I just suggested up above… that Arizona Forestry wouldn’t just pull the ripcord.

            By that I mean… exercise the option they have ALWAYS and STILL have.

            Just stop contesting the ADOSH Citations and just pay the fines.

            They ( Arizona Forestry ) could do that at ANY moment… and all this LJ Hearing and Judge Moseso stuff immediately just ‘goes away’.

            That doesn’t do much for them over in the other courtroom where the ‘wrongful death’ lawsuits are progressing… but it really would immediately make all this ALJ and Moseso stuff ‘go away’.

            ADOSH was DONE with all this when they issued their findings.
            They ‘pegged the meter’ on the citations and the amounts they were even legally able to charge the employer ( Arizona Forestry ).

            It was only ‘Arizona Forestry’ who couldn’t bring themselves to just “let it go” and pay the fines.

            THEY are the ones who decided to contest ALL of the ADOSH citations.

            Well… then THEY are also the ones who, at any moment, can also decide to just throw in the towel.

          • Marti Reed says

            Here is where I intended to write this:

            That’s exactly why I asked TWICE today:

            “Marti Reed says
            MAY 29, 2015 AT 11:51 AM

            Also,

            Marti Reed says MAY 29, 2015 AT 11:12 AM

            What I’m wondering now is (because I don’t understand this stuff) what are Mosesso’s options/obligations in all of this?

            Can he just order BOOM this is going to happen on this day at this time and determine who can be there and who can ask questions and who has to or doesn’t have to supply their questions to whom in advance?

            Just to get the darn thing DONE????”

            • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

              >> Marti said…
              >>
              >> Can he just order BOOM this is going to happen on
              >> this day at this time and determine who can be there
              >> and who can ask questions and who has to or doesn’t
              >> have to supply their questions to whom in advance?
              >>
              >> Just to get the darn thing DONE????”

              The SHORT answer: Not really.

              He’s NEUTRAL in this.
              He cannot step in and start doing their work FOR them.
              He can only issue procedural rulings that help things move along to a logical conclusion.

              His job is simple.

              ADOSH has already found an Employer was running an overly dangerous workplace and they have already ‘pegged the meter’ on the citations and the fines they are allowed, by law, to impose.

              At some point…. there just needs to be a HEARING ( not a trial ) about whther those citations and fines should be mitigated or adjusted.

              That’s it.

              If he actually does get too heavy handed and shows what could be construed as a BIAS for one side or the other… then the whole damn process could have to ‘rinse and repeat’ as one side ( or both sides ) file APPEALS.

              His biggest controlling element is the court calendar itself.

              A DATE has been set for the HEARING itself ( In October ).

              That quickly becomes the ‘motivator’ for both sides and he can make sure it remains the “Ready or not… here I come” day.

              The HEARING itself becomes the BOOM moment.

              Once the HEARING goes down… he is allowed to render his decision and all that’s left is to read it and weep.

              That’s the motivation for the lawyers to get off their asses and do what they are supposed to do.

              They can keep ASKING for extensions… but the Judge can say NO.

    • Marti Reed says

      So, also, as related to the above, and to bring this convo together into one place,

      On May 15, 2015 at 7:56 AM WTKTT wrote, regarding “Prescott Daily Courier
Hotshot survivor agrees to May deposition
 Published: Friday, May 15, 2015 by Joanna Dodder Nellans

      
http://dcourier.com/main.asp?SectionID=1&subsectionID=1086&articleID=145284”:

      “…..2) The article now seems to go out of its way to say that only ONE attorney will be ‘questioning’ Brendan at the deposition… and it’s an attorney for Arizona Forestry. There is no mention that any attorney for ADOSH will be present at the deposition.

      That doesn’t even match what I understand to be a valid deposition in cases like this.

      This means that ONLY ‘Arizona Forestry’ will be asking Brendan the questions and so ONLY Arizona Forestry will be able to ‘steer’ the deposition in the direction THEY want it to go.

      Usually… in a case like this ( and the way it was going to be both time previous to this )… BOTH sides of the case would agree to accept a deposition from a key witness like this… and it can become a substitute for being “called to the stand”… but only if both sides AGREE to this… and only if BOTH sides to get to ask questions just like they would if the witness was actually called to the stand in a courtroom.”

      • The Truth Will Always Remain Elusive says

        One has to understand the way the the Courier routinely prints stories.

        Generally, one can count on the information printed to be either late, dis-jointed, leaving out some critical details, or all of the above!

        Using my Courier decoder ring, I have determined that lawyers for all pertinent parties will be able to question and depose Brendan.

        • says

          Gotcha. Thanks!

          Still haven’t seen anything coming out yet from AZCentral/Arizona Republic about yesterday’s cancelled deposition. Although I haven’t had time today to do a search. They may be waiting for a few more things to unfold.

    • Marti Reed says

      Also,

      Marti Reed says MAY 29, 2015 AT 11:12 AM

      What I’m wondering now is (because I don’t understand this stuff) what are Mosesso’s options/obligations in all of this?

      Can he just order BOOM this is going to happen on this day at this time and determine who can be there and who can ask questions and who has to or doesn’t have to supply their questions to whom in advance?

      Just to get the darn thing DONE????

    • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

      Reply to Marti Reed post on May 29, 2015 at 10:46 am

      >> Marti said…
      >>
      >> So, I’m not seeing anything here that seems to be related to Paladini’s
      >> “spilling of his guts.” Nothing in that would have been NEWS to AZDF,
      >> unless I’m missing something. It was only NEWS to the public.

      One of the things you are a little ‘off’ on with your timeline above is the fact that according to the ALJ Documents that were appearing showing that Arizona Forestry had been ‘informed’ that Brendan had ‘additional testimony’… Arizona Forestry was not totally SURE what that testimony WAS.

      They were still describing it to Judge Mosesso using vague terms like “information previously not revealed to any investigator” in a vague timeframe of “decisions made AFTER the MacKenzie videos and just prior to deployment”.

      At the same time they were originally asking for the Judge’s OK to issue ‘deposition notification’ to McDonough ( which Judge Mosesso granted ) and also asking the Judge to subpoena Brendan to force him to show up ( which Judge Mosesso refused to do )… Arizona Forestry was NOT SURE exactly what it was that Brendan was going to testify to.

      Lawyers for Arizona Forestry explained that they had simply been INFORMED that Brendan had this “additional information” by Prescott City Attorney Jon Paladini and ( at that time ) Prescott Wildland Division Chief Darrell Willis.

      The BOMBSHELL for everyone involved was when City Attorney Jon Paladini seemed to suddenly decide it was OK to spill his guts about all this to the press.

      THAT is when even the attorneys for Arizona Forestry apparently found out EXACTLY what it was that Brendan wanted to “get off his chest”.

      It was the part about the infamous ARGUMENT… and the supposed scenario whereby Eric Marsh stopped NEGOTIATING with Steed and just flat-out ORDERED him to bring those men down off that ridge through that explosive fuel-filled box canyon.

      There really is no indication that the Arizona Forestry lawyers themselves had even heard that little tidbit of information from Paladini prior to his “chat with the media”.

      So as far as Arizona Forestry suddenly having a different take on WHO should be allowed to be at Brendan’s deposition(s), and WHAT questions can/should be asked… all I was saying is that this ‘Paladini moment’ *might* have had something to do with what is happening now.

      The Arizona Forestry lawyers seemed to be “good to go” with everything even just hours before the February 26 scheduled deposition. Then the letter showed up from Brendan’s PTSD therapist ( via David Shapiro ) and that deposition was called off.

      Now, all of sudden, it matters to AZF who is there and what questions can be asked?

      It doesn’t make any sense.

      Only thing I can think of is that the information provided to the media by Prescott City Attorney Jon Paladini really changed AZF’s entire perspective on the Brendan McDonough depositions.

      They ( AZF ) still desperately WANT and NEED to know what Brendan knows… but they also now need to control the way the information is revealed so as to not let TOO MUCH information end up ‘going public’. Where they are drawing the line on that and what they consider to be TOO MUCH INFORMATION… I do not know.

      That just seems to be the way they are suddenly behaving.

      They want a level of CONTROL over Brendan’s deposition that they didn’t even seem to care about as recently as February 26, 2015… and before Paladini’s “here’s what Willis told me” dump to the media.

      >> Marti also said…
      >>
      >> Is it possible that the thing that has changed is that, up until “now” (or
      >> until that somewhat mysterious-t0-me statement from Shapiro that
      >> Brendan would testify if legally required) AZDF was assuming that
      >> only THEIR lawyers would be involved in the deposition?

      I don’t think so. All the evidence is there that AZDF was perfectly aware that
      ADOSH would be fully present at either of the two scheduled depositions
      and would be fully armed with their own sets of questions.

      AZDF even acknowledged this to be their understanding when they were complaining to the Judge about ADOSH telling him how busy they were preparing for the McDonough depositions back in February of 2015.

      AZDF wasn’t making the case to Mosesso that ADOSH didn’t have the right to be doing all this ‘prep-work’ for the upcoming McDonough deposition. To the contrary. AZDF was telling Mosesso that they UNDERSTOOD how busy ADOSH was getting ready for the February 26 McDonough deposition because that’s exactly what THEY were doing as well for the entire first part of February.

      >> Marti also said…
      >>
      >> I’ve never been clear on this whole thing. I’ve never been clear on WHO
      >> was supposed to/allowed to be asking the questions in the deposition.

      If you read the existing ALJ documents… it seems perfectly clear that at least up until a few days ago… BOTH sides of the “Arizona Forestry vs. ADOSH” proceedings were fully aware ( and fully OK with the fact ) that they would BOTH have attorneys present at the deposition and that BOTH sides would get to ask whatever questions they wanted to.

      A deposition IS, in fact, like being “called to the stand”.

      Both sides AGREE to accept ‘sworn testimony’ from a witness… but usually ONLY if both sides get to “examine / cross-examine” AS IF the witness WAS ‘on the stand’.

      How Arizona Forestry could now believe they are entitled to be having some kind of PRIVATE under-oath deposition with McDonough… and why they would only now think that to be the case for this THIRD ATTEMPT to depose him… is still an absolute head-scratcher.

      Obviously there is ‘more to this story’ regarding what happened yesterday.

      • Marti Reed says

        Ahhhhhh, OK, now I understand better. I was missing that piece of the puzzle about how, even though AZDF knew Brendan had a story to tell, they didn’t know what that story was actually about.

        I had assumed that when Willis and Paldini had gone down to Phoenix they had told Scott Hunt (and whomever) what the story WAS.

        So, yeah, what you are saying is making more and more sense.

        And thanks for the clarification about the deposition expectations. Also thanks to everybody else who has chimed in and helped me understand this better.

        • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

          I think we’ve talked about this before… but it really is ‘not credible’ to think that someone wasn’t either RECORDING or TRANSCRIBING that MEETING between Prescott City Attorney Palladini and Darrell Willis and all of those attorneys for Arizona Forestry and the Arizona Attorney General’s office.

          This was a BIG DEAL.

          I’ll bet you couldn’t swing a cat in that room in Phoenix that day without giving an attorney a black eye.

          I would find it VERY hard to believe that such an important meeting has no ‘record’ of what was being said… and how much Palladini and Willis really DID tell David Selden and the other attorneys form the Arizona Attorney General’s office.

          If anything Palladini has said to the media is to be believed… then we also now have to believe that both he and Willis sat in that room with gaggles of well-dressed ( and well-paid ) State level attorneys… and they somehow chose to NOT tell them everything THEY knew?

          Then we are to believe that even though Paladini and Willis chose NOT to share everything they knew with the AZF attorneys that day… that suddenly Prescott City Attorney Jon Paladini would decide it was OK to tell it all to the media, instead?

          There are still an awful lot of ‘side stories’ here that need to be told.

  23. WantsToKnowTheTruth says

    **
    ** BRENDAN MCDONOUGH
    **
    ** OCCUPATION: PUBLIC FIGURE

    Given the continued shenanigans that went down today with regards to Brendan McDonough, the lawyers, and this ongoing deposition debacle…

    …I popped over to Brendan’s online ‘social pages’ to see if he actually might have had anything to say himself about today’s events.

    It occurred to me that Brendan might, himself, have had just about enough of all these lawyers and all this bullshit and he might be about THIS close ( fingers pinched close together ) to just saying “Fuck it… I’m telling my story MY way… on MY terms… and like RIGHT NOW”.

    No such luck. ( Well… not today, anyway ).

    But there were some interesting ‘developments’ over on Brendan’s ‘social presence’ public pages ( Twitter / Facebook ).

    On March 9 of this year ( 2015 ), Brendan McDonough suddenly appeared on Twitter at the following link…

    https://twitter.com/bmcdonough20

    His TweetPage graphics consisted of a background image of a wildfire at night ( not the Yarnell fire ) and a photo of him with his back to the camera standing in front of the 911 memorial at the site where the World Trade Centers stood in New York City.

    His first (test) Tweet was…

    —————————————————————
    Brendan McDonough ‏@ BMcDonough20 – Mar 9
    Hello Twitter! #myfirstTweet
    —————————————————————

    That remained the ONLY Tweet on his page… until just a few days ago.

    8 days ago… on May 20, Brendan suddenly posted another Tweet…

    ————————————————————
    Brendan McDonough @ BMcDonough20 – May 20
    During my time with Carry the Load I have found something that was lost inside me that I haven’t seen in a long… h t t p: / / fb.me/7hDTP1yIM
    ————————————————————

    ** Carry The Load

    The “Carry The Load” organization was started by two former Navy SEALS
    ( Clint Bruce and Stephen Holley ).

    “Carry The Load” is a registered Not-for-profit IRS 501(c)3 corporation with Tax ID #27-4568835

    The stated purpose of this not-for-profit company is pretty simple.

    They want to (quote) “Restore the True Meaning of Memorial Day”.

    They want to make sure people remember that ‘Memorial Day’ isn’t just an excuse to go out to the lake and drink beer and eat hamburgers.

    Their programs include marches and rallys and have actually expanded to include not only the whole month of May ( they refer to it as ‘Memorial May’ )… but they now also include firefighters, police and other first responders along with military personnel.

    This year ( 2015 ) Brendan McDonough took a very active part in a number of “Carry the Load” public events… which is what led to only his second Tweet ever just 8 days ago on his Twitter page.

    That ‘Tweet’ is actually just a ‘share’ link for something that Brendan also posted over on his own PUBLIC Facebook page.

    The LINK in his Tweet actually just jumps to that PUBLIC post on his Facebook page, which is actually a photo of Brendan walking in a “Carry the Load” event in Chattanooga, TN on May 20.

    The ‘copy’ ( text and comment ) for that public photo is as follows…

    ——————————————————————————–
    Brendan Mcdonough

    During my time with Carry the Load I have found something that was lost inside me that I haven’t seen in a long time. Something my brothers loved me for, I feel like a lot has been building up to that moment I had. I feel a little more at peace as the days go on and thankful for what God has given me. Thank you everyone for the love and support have a great week. The question I’ll leave you with is “who are you carrying?” — in Chatanooga, Tn. – May 20, 2015

    Comment from Ryan Gabriel – May 20 at 4:53pm
    Hooah! You got a lot of love brother from a lot of places worldwide!
    Nothing will stop you with God and our brotherhood!
    ——————————————————————————–

    What is interesting about Brendan’s PUBLIC Facebook page is how he is now listing his ‘occupation’ ( his ‘who am I’ descriptor ) on his own Facebook page BANNER.

    His Facebook HOME PAGE BANNER now says this…

    Brendan McDonough
    Public Figure

    His public ABOUT page now says this…

    About Brendan McDonough ( Public Figure )
    Page Info
    Phone:(928) 925-7856

    So PTSD or not… Brendan is now listing HIMSELF as a “Public Figure”, and seems resigned to that role for at least a while to come.

    He makes NO MENTION of still being ’employed’ by the “Wildland Firefighter Foundation” or doing his own PTSD counseling.

    I still think he ‘moved on’ from that job right around the time that Vicki Minor and her son Burke and that WFF organization had its feet in the fire over how they were spending the millions of dollars raised following the whole Yarnell thing… but there’s still been no actual confirmation that Brendan does NOT actually work for Vicki and Burke Minor anymore.

    • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

      Direct link to Brendan McDonough’s PUBLIC Facebook page…

      https://www.facebook.com/brendan.j.mcdonough

      The second photo down on his Facebook Timeline is also related to his recent participation in the Memorial Day “Carry The Load” event(s).

      This one appears to show him standing in front of the “Tour Bus” used by that organization to “spread the word” during the month of May.

      It appears from the various other photos that Brendan might have actually been on the “Tour Bus” with them this year.

      • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

        Actually… it looks like Brendan WAS on the “Carry the Load” tour bus this year as it started its “Memorial May” tour in New York City.

        There’s another photo of him actually marching in a “Carry the Load” event in New York City on May 3, 2015… and then the photo of him standing by the “Carry The Load” tour bus has him in Murfreesboro, TN, 12 days later on May 15, 2015.

        • Joy A. Collura says

          WWTKTT-
          awful sad.
          awful sad.
          well, I want to post an email I got about Dickman’s book and the lawyer’s reply on the hiker’s published account and I replied back “where in those 2 places did I say that exactly or even THEY said that. I never personally nor Sonny on that tragic day even used words to Marsh like bear wallowing or bushwacking and etc…”
          here is the email today so if anyone else saw mistakes this is the lawyer handling it so please start sending your corrections WWTKTT and Holley:

          From: “Zalcman, Amelia”
          Date: May 28, 2015 6:42 AM
          Subject: On the Burning Edge by Kyle Dickman

          Dear Mr. Gilligan and Ms. Collura
          I am an attorney for The Random House Publishing Group, a division of Penguin Random House LLC, publishers of On the Burning Edge by Kyle Dickman (the “Work”). I was forwarded your email of May 15, 2015 regarding Work and the reference to your interview regarding the Yarnell Hill fire. Your email indicated that you were concerned that Mr. Dickman did not specify the source of your interview. In the notes documenting his sources, Mr. Dickman does in fact refer to the Serious Accident Investigation Report as well as the work done by John Dougherty and notes that several interviews (including yours) come from those transcripts. I’ve cut and pasted those paragraphs here for your convenience. In the book they appear in the notes on pages 275-276.
          “Russ Shumate’s story came from comprehensive interview transcripts and hand- written notes from both the Arizona Department of Occupational Safety and Health Investigative Report and the Serious Accident Investigation Report. These notes, obtained through FOIA requests from the excellent independent journalist John Dougherty, among many others, also provided the foundation for all the Yarnell Hill chapters that follow.
          Details of Granite Mountain and other firefighters’ ex- perience on the Yarnell Hill Fire on June 30 came from conversations with Todd Abel, Conrad Jackson, Steve Emery, the Ferrells, and McDonough, as well as interview transcripts and notes from [the SAIR], among others, Abel, Russ Shumate, Byron Kimball, Gary Cordes, Paul Musser, Darrell Willis, Rance Marquez, Rory Collins, Brian Frisby, Rogers Trueheart Brown, three other Blue Ridge Hotshots, and the hikers Joy Collura and Tex Gilligan.

          I hope this clears up any confusion.

          Thank you

          Amelia Zalcman

          Amelia Zalcman
          Vice President
          Associate General Counsel
          Penguin Random House LLC
          (617) 244-1666 (ph)
          (212) 782-5004 (fax)
          azalcman@randomhouse.com

          • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

            There is a basic assumption being made by this ‘lawyer’ which is the same mistake a lot of other people ( other lawyers included ) have been making all along.

            That ‘assumption’ is that things that have been printed/published in the SAIR report or things that appear in the SAIT interview notes actually represent the truth or actually represent things people actually said.

            There are a LOT of things in the original SAIR report that make it sound like they are coming from things people actually said, or thought, or did… when that is NOT the case.

            Next thing you know… this lawyer will be saying that it’s ok to report the was a 30 minute blackout where no one was communicating with Granite Mountain just because that’s what was published in the SAIR.

            Or that Blue Ridge Superintendent Brian Frisby actually did think that Eric Marsh meant he was retreating to a ‘ranch up north’. You still have to love that one. The SAIT makes it sound like that was exactly what Frisby told them he thought… when Frisby’s own published Unit Logs indicate no such thing.

            There was a lot of “imagineering” going on in that original SAIR report.

            And for an author / publisher to come along and start saying they are now selling “The definitive account of the Yarnell Hill Fire”… that REQUIRED them to at least do a minimum amount of VERIFYING these things they just decided to REPRINT from ‘other sources’.

            The lawyer is trying to make it sound like just because Dickman found other reports of people saying or doing things.. then it was OK to reprint all that as the truth without even lifting a finger to verify any of it.

            Maybe that helps bring a book to market faster… but it doesn’t give you the right to start selling as “a definitive account”.

            The Dickman book is what it is.

            It’s a ‘human interest’ work with some background on the men who died that came out of interviews that only Dickman was granted because he was a ‘former Hotshot’.

            That’s it.

            It is ( by no means ) the “definitive account of the Yarnell Fire”.

            Not even close.

            • Marti Reed says

              I think what Joy is asking is for us to send our opinions/facts/corrections to the lawyer.

              I will probably do something like that tomorrow. I hope you will, too.

              I doubt the lawyer is reading what you just wrote, accurately, above.

              And, all things considered, at this point, I don’t think there’s much of anything that can be done about it.

              The book is published. It has a life of its own.

              But stil……….

              • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

                Reply to Marti Reed post on
                May 28, 2015 at 11:53 pm

                >> Marti said…
                >>
                >> I think what Joy is asking is for us to send our
                >> opinions/facts/corrections to the lawyer.
                >>
                >> I will probably do something like that tomorrow.
                >> I hope you will, too.

                Yes, I will… if I get the time to finish my own ERRATTA list for that book… but commenter “GoingDirect” ( Holly Neill ) herself pretty much ‘got it right’.

                She caught most of the MAJOR screw-ups and they have printed her comment publicly.

                The “buyer beware” moment has already happened up there.

                >> Marti also said…
                >>
                >> I doubt the lawyer is reading what you just
                >> wrote, accurately, above.

                Even if she was… she would still come back with… “Mr. Dickman states in his book that his narrative is based on various PUBLIC / PUBLISHED sources and not just his own personal interviews”.

                That’s the “line in the sand” she was drawing in her email to Joy Collura. That’s their “Whadda you want from us” moment.

                >> Marti also said…
                >>
                >> And, all things considered, at this point, I don’t think
                >> there’s much of anything that can be done about it.

                No. There isn’t.

                There certainly isn’t going to be any kind of “We’re so sorry we got all that wrong” or any kind of huge RETRACTION issued for a book they are selling under the false claim of it being “The definitive account of the Yarnell Hill Fire”.

                Not gonna happen… and that was the “shot across the bow” in this publisher / lawyer letter back to Joy.

                The lawyer does not CARE that Mr. Dickman took all kinds of words that had been put into Joy’s mouth and then published by other people… and then Mr. Dickman regurgitated the same mis-statements via his own ‘imagineering’.

                She ( the lawyer ) will ALWAYS be taking the stance here that regardless of whether Mr. Dickman felt the need to actually TALK to people ( who are still alive ) that he would be portraying and quoting in his book… that it’s still OK for him to just munge together a whole lot of things that OTHER people have SAID they SAID into his own ‘story’… and go with that.

                >> Marti also said…
                >>
                >> The book is published. It has a life of its own.

                One of Mark Twain’s constant ‘targets’ for his quotations was his own publishing industry.

                It was Mark Twain himself who was combating this very sort of “He said she said he said she said it so it’s ok for me to say it, too” stuff when he first wrote…

                “A falsehood can travel half way around the world while the truth is still putting on its shoes.”

                >> Marti also said…
                >>
                >> But stil……….

                As far as “But still..” goes… I think there is already plenty of commentary out there showing this book up for what it really is.

                If you want to read some intesting stories about what it’s like to be a Hothshot ( in general ) or what some of those men who burned to death were really like…

                …then by all means… buy / read Dickman’s book.

                If you want to read “the definitive account of the Yarnell Hill Fire”… then that is most certainly NOT what this book is.

                From the reviews and the commentary I’ve seen out there already… I think this is now pretty much a ‘given’.

                The author and/or publisher are NEVER going to be issuing any retractions or apologies for anything… no matter how many SMEs ( Subject Matter Experts ) chime in about how wrong Dickman was.

                I’m sure there are some other Hotshots out there as well who would mightily disagree with even just some of Dickman’s own narrative about ‘Hotshotty” sort of things.

                But they ( Dickman and/or Publisher ) won’t be apologizing for any of that, either.

                • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

                  Followup…

                  Wanted to make it clear that YES… I DO believe that BOTH the publisher and the author should issue a public apology for claiming this book is the “definitive account of the Yarnell Hill Fire” when it is NO SUCH THING…

                  …but I don’t believe that they are ever going to do that no matter how many people they hear from who know the ‘facts’ far better than they do.

                  That being said… let’s return to something YOU ( Marti ) pointed out down below.

                  It would NOT surprise me if the author and the publisher DO hear from a lawyer representing Mr. Brian Frisby.

                  In his book… Mr. Dickman is stating unequivocally that Mr. Brian Frisby was the one who was ordering fireman to move vehicles and abandon their crewmates.

                  Dickman is saying it was DEFINITELY Brian Frisby who said “They can’t run that fast” and was, essentially, telling Bob Brandon and Matt Keehner that their crewmates were probably already burning to death so they might as well go ahead and move the vehicles.

                  I could imagine Mr. Brian Frisby taking umbrage at being willy-nilly ( publicly ) accused of being the one to have said/done that.

                  It’s not flattering. Especially not for someone who is trying to be a respected fireman and Hotshot Superintendent.

                  So yea… maybe some of this Dickman ERRATTA really does rise to the level of SLANDER…

                  …but you can’t file a SLANDER lawsuit on someone else’s behalf. That’s called not having the proper ‘standing’ to file such a suit.

                  It has to come from the person who is being (supposedly) being ‘slandered’.

                  Maybe Frisby is the the one who said those things.
                  Maybe Dickman did talk to him.

                  But maybe NOT.
                  .

                  • Bob Powers says

                    I am lost here—-When the vehicles were being moved the crew was not in trouble and Frizby thought they were in the Black.
                    Why would he say that then.
                    I also doubt that Frizby would say something that negative in front of any one. Just dose not match his personality. .

                    • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

                      I think you just have the ‘wrong crew’ in mind.

                      What Peeples Valley firefighters Bob Brandon and Matt Keehner have already testified to is that while they were standing by the vehicles parked in the Youth Camp area and watching for any sign of the other 6 firefighters who had been working out west in Harper Canyon to ‘appear’…

                      …someone who they have identified as their own ‘group supervisor’ with a ‘white helmet’ appeared and started ordering them to get their two vehicles out of there immediately.

                      They refused… saying their were waiting for their own men and that is where those men expected the vehicles to be.

                      This ‘group supervisor’ apparently didn’t understand or didn’t care what they were saying. He supposedly told them “They can’t run that fast” ( implying that if they weren’t visible yet… it was too late ) and he again ORDERED them to get those vehicles out of there.

                      This time Brandon and Keehner complied… but only kinda-sorta… they fired up the vehicles and just started ‘creeping’ to the east and out of the Youth Camp.

                      Sure enough… Sun City Captain Darby Starr and the other 5 FFs ( including other Peeples Valley FFs ) emerged hauling ass from the west and were able to catch up to the vehicles.

                      They were apparently really PISSED that Brandon and Keehner had moved the vehicles and they weren’t where the men had expected them to be… but Brandon and Keehner explained what happened. That some guy had come along and told them to stop waiting for them to appear and to foreget about those other men and move the vehicles, anyway.

                      This is ALSO the ‘engines got PINCHED’ story that was then being mis-reported in SPGS1 Gary Cordes’ own SAIT Interview notes when he said…

                      ——————————————–
                      3 engines working on the shrine area got pinched. The crews that had hiked in couldn’t find their buggies when they came out because a water tender guy had moved their vehicles.
                      ——————————————-

                      Cordes was referring to this same incident back there at the Youth Camp where Brandon and Keehner had been ORDERED to move the Peeples Valley Water Tender and the other command vehicle by this mysterious “group supervisor” with a “white helmet”.

                      The fact that Cordes himself is mis-reporting the incident the way he is has always been taken to mean that even though he, himself, was SPGS1… that he could not have been the actual white-helmeted group supervisor that Brandon and Keehner were referring to.

                      That leaves a very short list of people that it could have been giving that ORDER to Brandon and Keehner… but the actual identity of that person has never been established.

                      Brandon and Keehner themselves allude to the fact that they went over all this with Arizona Forestry investigators in face-to-face interviews and testimony given just 48 hours after the tragedy… but those ‘transcripts’ ( and the photos and videos they also gave to the investigators ) have never seen the light of day.

                    • Marti Reed says

                      WTKTT, you said:

                      “…someone who they have identified as their own ‘group supervisor’ with a ‘white helmet’ appeared and started ordering them to get their two vehicles out of there immediately.”

                      I know this is a picky little detail down here in the weeds, but since I care a lot about this, your “white helmet” in quotes caught my attention.

                      So I went and read the DC article. The paragraph in the article, which you quoted downstream, says:

                      “Their group supervisor pulled up and told Brandon and Keehner they had to move their trucks out. Brandon refused, telling the commander that his crew was still in there. The supervisor repeated his order, saying the other guys couldn’t run that fast..”

                      This does not say anything about a “white helmet.”

                      Also, when I read “white helmet.” I went scurrying back to look at the photos of Frisby and Trew and the UTV at, and fleeing from, the Youth Camp.

                      In the image of them riding through the embers, Frisby has his typical black baseball cap on and Trew has a blue helmet on (which he had on, apparently, all day).

                      Neither probably even OWNS a white helmet, I would bet.

                      So, I’m not getting where you are getting the “white helmet” thing.

                      Also, I went back and looked at that image of the UTV in the middle of the clearing at the Youth Camp. After all of this convo, it was interesting to look at it again.

                      I had white-balanced the image awhile back when I was trying to figure out who was in it.

                      The guy standing to the right of the UTV (who, I think you once said you thought was, based on photos from the Ranch House Restaurant Parking Lot, Tyson Esquibel) has a YELLOW helmet on, not a white one.

                      They guy standing to the left of the UTV has a RED helmet on. And I have NO CLUE who that is.

                      This photo was taken about, I think, five minutes before we see all these trucks and crews coming out of the area on the Aaron Hulburd videos.

                      That YELLOW helmet was, I think, another of the reasons I didn’t think it was Tony Sciacca, way back when when we were discussing whether or not it was him. (Of course, at that time I had NO IDEA what Tony looked like but I didn’t think he would have been wearing a yellow helmet).

                      But I knew at the time that it’s still hard to tell. But I now TRULY don’t believe anybody with a “White Helmet” (i.e. the official color of major OVERHEAD — for a REASON) was anywhere near the Youth Camp at that time.

                      So that’s why I’m interested in where you got the “white helmet.” Was it from another article or something?

                      BTW I think the paragraph from the article above pretty much kills any idea that it was Frisby. It essentially says Group Supervisor twice. That Group Supervisor would never have been Brian Frisby.

                      And since it wasn’t Gary Cordes (because he wasn’t there), it had to have been Tyson Esquibel, who, by the way, is seen in the Hulburd videos driving out JUST AHEAD of Brian and Trew and just AFTER the crew on foot walking out.

                      Details down in the weeds. But details I think you might be interested in.

                    • says

                      And as long as I’m writing down here in the weeds about the details regarding something that you and I are VERY interested in………

                      I’m not looking at the images from the Ranch House Restaurant right now. But I have in my head-memory the image of the fire-fighter there that I think is the one you think is Tyson Esquibel and corresponds to the guy standing on the right of the UTV in the clearing at the Youth Camp.

                      The question I have had, but have never asked is — What led you to believe that firefighter in the Ranch House Restaurant parking lot photo is Tyson Esquibel?

                      I’m guessing, now, all things considered, you are correct. But I’m just curious how you determined that, given that at the time you were saying that, we hadn’t seen these videos which proved that it wasn’t Tony Sciacca, and we were much more sketchy about what was going on.

                      I guess my question then, and thus now, was/is did you see something going on in those photos that tied that fire-fighter with that chest-holster and that yellow helmet to something definitive regarding “Tyson Esquibel”?

                      I’m just curious.

                    • The Truth Will Always Remain Elusive says

                      Since we’re discussing nuances of the reports involving the Harper Canyon thing, my recollection is that he stated that “the ‘incident commander’ for our area came and ordered me to move the vehicle”.

                      The reason I remember that statement specifically is that it showed a complete lack of understanding (and training) regarding the incident command structure. There is only one IC on any given fire, period.

                    • says

                      In response to TTWARE above:

                      I don’t remember the term “Incident Commander” coming into the discussion.

                      The quote from the article is:

                      ““Their group supervisor pulled up and told Brandon and Keehner they had to move their trucks out. Brandon refused, telling the commander that his crew was still in there. The supervisor repeated his order, saying the other guys couldn’t run that fast..”

                      It’s clear from that the Brandon was confused as to which appropriate term he should have been using. But “Incident Commander” was never inside my head in any of those conversations.

                • The Truth Will Always Remain Elusive says

                  It is important to keep mind, and I doubt that the public in general really gives a shit about this seemingly minor detail, but many of the positive reviews that have already appeared on Amazon were from people who had been given “free” copies of the book prior to their reviews.

                  • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

                    Reply to
                    The Truth Will Always Remain Elusive
                    ( TTWARE ) post on
                    May 29, 2015 at 11:43 am

                    >> TTWARE said…
                    >>
                    >> It is important to keep mind, and I doubt
                    >> that the public in general really gives
                    >> a shit about this seemingly minor
                    >> detail, but many of the positive reviews
                    >> that have already appeared on Amazon
                    >> were from people who had been given
                    >> “free” copies of the book prior to their
                    >> reviews.

                    No matter how much ERRATTA is published regarding this Kyle Dickman book ( and it would almost take a whole ‘nother book about the book to get it all codified )… I think the opinions are still going to just fall into two distinct categories.

                    The old saying that comes to mind to describe those two distinct categories would be…

                    “To those who understand… no explanation is required. To those who do not… no explanation is possible”.

                    There will ALWAYS be people who will be accepting every word in this book as fact simply because it is a Hotshot writing ABOUT other Hotshots… and FOR other Hotshots.

                    Fine. Whatever.

                    It IS a good tome to help get to know just SOME of the men who burned to death a little better. There’s no doubt about THAT part.

                    But notice that with ALL of the pre-release copies that were handed out so that they could have some ‘reviews’ in the can by release day… not ONE of them appears to have gone to anyone who actually knows a thing or two about what really happened that day.

                    Example: Kyle Dickman himself ( in his book ) praises independent journalist John Dougherty for his own dedication to discovering and reporting the ‘whole truth’ about that weekend in Yarnell…

                    …but AFAIK Kyle Dickman didn’t give one of these advance copies to Mr. Dougherty.

                    Not even for a quick ‘fact check’.

                    Ditto for Mr. John MacLean and Ms. Holly Neill.

                    It’s perfectly obvious that both MacLean and Neill are ALSO very interested in ‘getting this right’… and they know a LOT about what happened that day…

                    …but there appears to have been no attempt whatsoever to give either of THEM an advanced copy of the book even just for simple proof-reading purposes ( which the book also could have used ).

                    Dickman had plenty of options to try and ‘get this right’ and make it a better book.

                    He decided to NOT exercise those options.

            • Marti Reed says

              It would be even better to cc Kyle Dickman while doing so. But I don’t have his email address.

    • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

      Yes. Checking those ‘updates’ out now… but evne though the documents are being
      posted today they are DATED 2 days ago ( May 26, 2015 )… so doubtful they contain
      any details about what actually happened TODAY ( May 28 ) and with regards to Brendan’s depostion being cancelled for the THIRD TIME.

      New files are appearing at the bottom of this public page…

      https://sites.google.com/site/yarnellhillinformation/home/yarnellhillaljhearingfile

      • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

        I think it’s worth mentioning that what is still being tossed back and forth here ( and what Judge Michael Mosesso has apparently still not issued a ruling on ) is whether Arizona Forestry is going to get its way and have some of the sub-items of ADOSH Citation 1 dismissed before things ever get to the ‘evidentiary’ part of this appeal process.

        That includes Citation 1 Item (b) where Arizona Forestry is now trying to claim that just because Brendan never told ADOSH he was in any ‘trouble’ that day… that the entire citation ADOSH issued for Brendan’s potential entrapment situation should be immediately DISMISSED.

        That claim was always essentially bullshit… but the Arizona Foresty lawyers still thought it was worth a shot… and they ‘worked it up’ and shot it over to Judge Mosesso’s desk.

        What has CHANGED since Arizona Forestry originally filed that motion for dismissal of Citation 1 Item (b)… is that Kyle Dickman’s book is now out.

        Kyle Dickman himself says that the information in his book about what was happening out there with Brendan came straight from Brendan McDonough himself. No question.

        Kyle Dickman’s re-telling of events fully supports everthing ADOSH concluded and issued fines for.

        So even the first book that has been published now with (supposedly) direct testimony from Brendan himself establishes that ADOSH was CORRECT about what was going down out there and was justified in issues those particular workplace safety violation citations.

        It would be pretty insane if Arizona Forestry still tries to push for dismissal of this one item now that Kyle Dickman’s book is out… with Brendan’s own testimony in it.

        • Joy A. Collura says

          wwtktt-
          I had planned to work on photos but Sonny stop by and wanted me to list his Harley Sportster which I took the photos but never yet listed because we spent most of the afternoon until now with a lady who was going from Colorado to Venice Beach and he allowed her to stay at his cabin so we spent some time discussing some interesting things about life and health—2 topics I appreciate. Sonny one one hand “done” with hikes with me to than let’s hit the turquoise mines I use to mine…NUMBER ONE focus for me is no hikes but get some funds and get my blood labs and body scans; I am not doing too hot. He always in the past takes a glimpse at me and feels”she is good enough- let’s go” and I do but not this time- the swelling on top of my head I know anyone else would already be attending as I try to weigh and wait it out because I dread the doctors…I am disappointed but not shocked about all you wrote today on Brendan…I was hoping he would speak up even without a lawyer at this point just as you mentioned. My computer says it has a dynamo combo virus and so I have to reset it to an earlier time…I am so tired to mess with it now but always something with these darn technology stuff. good night.

          • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

            Thank you, Joy.

            I now have copies of those other 53 photos and I’m still looking at them.

            With regards to that one photo showing the old gas can on the ground right in front of those overlapping sheets of what looks like corrugated metal panels…

            …is that where the EXPLOSIVES sign was there out on that Jeep Trail?

            Are those the original ‘signs’ themselves there just lying on the ground by the gas can?

            Where exactly was that photo taken?

            It’s going to be hard to geo-tag it just from the photo itself since it’s just a photo of the ground and there isn’t much ‘terrain’ to go on.

            Also… as I said down below… if you have just a moment or two… could you simply just click on the following link and tell me if the ‘red balloon’ marker that appears is where that EXPLOSIVES SIGN really is?

            https://www.google.com/maps/place/34%C2%B013%2759.8%22N+112%C2%B047%2714.2%22W/@34.233286,-112.787277,17z/data=!3m1!1e3

            Thanks in advance!

            A photo of this infamous EXPLOSIVES sign would be nice… but it is still far more important to just determine, once and for all, exactly WHERE that sign was out there than to actually have a photo of it.

          • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

            Reply to Joy A. Collura post on May 28, 2015 at 10:52 pm

            >> Joy A. Collura said…
            >>
            >> I am disappointed but not shocked about all you wrote today
            >> on Brendan…I was hoping he would speak up even without
            >> a lawyer at this point just as you mentioned.

            It would not SURPRISE me if Brendan really does say “The hell with all these lawyers” at this point and decides to tell HIS story, in HIS way…

            …but I ( me, personally ) still don’t think that’s the best thing for him to do at this point.

            It’s all about CREDIBILITY now and Brendan has dug himself a deep enough hole here that he’s going to have to get a little ‘dirty’ just to crawl back out of it. There are people who are not going to believe anything he has to say now no matter how many ‘books’ he puts his hand on and swears to tell the truth.

            I still think his BEST chance at crawling out of this hole he has dug for himself with the least amount of dirt in his shoes ( and to have the BEST chance of what he says be accepted as ‘the truth’. ) would still be to go the under-oath deposition route… and not walk in with any kind of AGENDA of his own as he did during his original interviews.

            He does appear READY to finally do that… so I hope they work out whatever bullshit is going on now that caused today’s third deposition attempt to be cancelled.

            What’s really bizarre about what happened TODAY is to wonder WHY, all of a sudden, it was even an issue WHO would be allowed to be at the deposition and be asking questions.

            It certainly wasn’t an issue back in February of 2015 and up to just 48 hours before the previously scheduled deposition.

            All the ‘lawyers’ were ‘good to go’ for THAT under-oath depostion with no one having a cow about who might be going to ask what questions.

            BOTH side were disappointed last time when it was cancelled right befor eit happened due to this (supposed) letter from Brendan’s therapist saying it wouldn’t have been good for Brendan to testify.

            So fast forward to today… and all of a sudden it looks like Arizona Forestry lawyers want to totally CONTROL who gets to even attend the deposition and who gets to ask any questions?

            That just adds ANOTHER layer of mystery to this whole screwed-up process of just trying to get a Hotshot to do what he should have done in the first place… and just tell the ‘whole TRUTH’ to investigators.

      • Marti Reed says

        Regarding the Deposition of Scott Hunt, which was ordered to take place on May 22, although it didn’t (possibly, given the documents, because neither he nor the requisite lawyers were going to be available at that time)………

        The documents are quite interesting, although WAY above my pay-scale to actually EVALUATE.

        There’s a pretty BIG FIGHT going on over this, on an equal par with the one going on over the deposition of Brendan McDonough.

        • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

          Reply to Marti Reed post on May 29, 2015 at 12:17 am

          >> Marti said…
          >>.
          >> There’s a pretty BIG FIGHT going on over this, on an equal par
          >> with the one going on over the deposition of Brendan McDonough.

          Yes… and while we still don’t really know what went down yesterday with regards to the THIRD attempt to depose Brendan being cancelled… some parts of documents filed over the deposition of Hunt might shed a little more light on what happened yesterday with McDonough.

          As part of ADOSH’s response to Arizona Forestry’s objections
          to retired State Forestry Scott Hunt being ‘deposed… ADOSH is seen telling ALJ Judge Mosesso that while they COULD supply more information about what they intend to ASK Scott Hunt during the deposition… they also make it clear to the Judge there is no REQUIREMENT for them to do so…

          From ALJ Hearing document “2015_05 Updated 05.26.15.pdf” sitting at…
          https://sites.google.com/site/yarnellhillinformation/home/yarnellhillaljhearingfile

          —————————————————————————-
          4. If the Administrative Law Judge ( Michael Mosesso ) would find
          it helpful for ADOSH to file supporting materials regarding
          the examples of areas of inquiry ADOSH listed in its request to
          depose Mr. Hunt, ADOSH has them available and will promptly
          do so at the ALJ’s request. ADOSH does however note that
          there is NO REQUIREMENT under the ADOSH rules to file
          supporting materials to support taking a deposition, or to let
          the opposing party know ahead of time some of the expected
          areas of questioning prior to a deposition.
          ———————————————————————–

          So the ‘consternation’ for YESTERDAY could be ADOSH actually asserting this ‘rule’ over the McDonugh deposition. The Arizona Forestry lawyers might only want to agree to allow ADOSH to ask Brendan questions if Arizona Forestry has a complete LIST of those questions beforehand ( which can presumably be passed on to Brendan’s lawyer David Shapiro so he can help prepare Brendan how to answer the questions )…

          …but ADOSH might be telling Arizona Forestry lawyers what they are telling Judge Mosesso up above.

          They are NOT REQUIRED to provide any kind of LIST of questions they intend to ask prior to any deposition.

          And how could this be any other way, really?

          When Brendan is under no obligation to actually GIVE this ‘under-oath’ deposition ( there is still no subpoena )… then finding out beforehand what ALL of the questions are going to be could just give him another reason to not show up at all. If he doesn’t like any of the questions that he now knows he’s going to be asked… he doesn’t have to show up.

          Same for the Arizona Forestry lawyers themselves.

          They only actually care about Brendan but so much here.
          They are NOT being paid to defend someone named ‘Brendan McDonough”.

          They are being paid to defend an agency called “Arizona Forestry”.

          So ditto for Arizona Forestry.

          They might not want to even let this deposition take place if there is even ONE question they know is going to be asked that THEY don’t want Brendan giving an answer to.

          I don’t know what that question might be… but it could be any number of things.

          They ( the Arizona Forestry laywers ) have an obligation to make this all come out well for THEIR client ( Arizona Forestry ) and they could really give a crap about someone named Brendan McDonough.

          Won’t it be a hoot if ADOSH turns around now and wants to schedule its OWN deposition of McDonough and be totally in-control of THAT deposition and ask any/all questions that Arizona Forestry doesn’t seem to want Brendan to answer.

          In other words… unless they just forget all this ‘behind close doors’ depositon stuff and agree to just put Brendan on a witness stand and accessible ( at that time ) by BOTH sets of lawyers…

          …then we really could end up with TWO separate depositions here.

          One is being run by Arizona Forestry.
          The other is being run by ADOSH

          and neither side is ‘invited’ to attend the other side’s deposition of McDonough.

          More crazy-town… but perfectly possible, I supposed.

          • says

            Thanks for describing this.

            What I’m wondering now is (because I don’t understand this stuff) what are Mosesso’s options/obligations in all of this?

            Can he just order BOOM this is going to happen on this day at this time and determine who can be there and who can ask questions and who has to or doesn’t have to supply their questions to whom in advance?

            Just to get the darn thing DONE????

            • Marti Reed says

              And I have no idea why my name keeps get posted in red and on the form under Website it keeps saying http://deleted even after I keep deleting that.

              So that’s what’s happening and I wish I knew how to permanently make it STOP.

    • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

      Reply to Bob Powers post on May 28, 2015 at 2:54 pm

      >> Bob Powers said…
      >>
      >> There is some new stuff in the ALJ mostly on State Forester Deposition.

      Yes. At the top of the following ‘updated’ document we now see the ORDER issued by Judge Mosseso which says that ADOSH’s request to do an under-oath deposition of former Arizona Forester Scott Hunt is GRANTED… and that the parties should go ahead and agree on a time and “get ‘er dun”…

      https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B6N47Z5CNR-CVkwxWlpyWEkybDQ/edit?pli=1

      ADOSH has not also asked Judge Mosesso to subpoena Scott Hunt… but if Hunt ( and his lawyer ) start to blow off the scheduled depositions like McDonough ( and his lawyer ) they very well may ask for one.

      • Marti Reed says

        LOL. YOu wrote that while I was picking my way through the filings, after which I wrote what I wrote up above:

        Marti Reed says
        MAY 29, 2015 AT 12:17 AM

        Regarding the Deposition of Scott Hunt, which was ordered to take place on May 22, although it didn’t (possibly, given the documents, because neither he nor the requisite lawyers were going to be available at that time)………

        The documents are quite interesting, although WAY above my pay-scale to actually EVALUATE.

        There’s a pretty BIG FIGHT going on over this, on an equal par with the one going on over the deposition of Brendan McDonough.

        • Marti Reed says

          So…… Mosesso’s order was signed May 20. The deposition, which was disputed MIGHTILY by the Lawyers representing Arizona Department of Forestry, was scheduled for May 22.

          One of the MANY issues raised by the ADOF lawyers was that the timing of the deposition was not “meetable” (for lack of, on my part, a better word) by either Scott Hunt or ADOF lawyers.

          The Mosesso order, dated May 20 says:

          “IT IS ORDERED that Complainant may notice the deposition of former State Forester Scott Hunt at a time and place that is mutually agreeable to the parties.”

          So what this is looking like, by me, is that Mosesso has overridden a whole host of objections by ADOF lawyers and has ordered the deposition anyway, but that the reason it hasn’t, apparently, happened yet is a matter of scheduling, which, as has been stated periodically downstream, is a completely normal thing to happen.

          On the other hand, the deposition may actually have happened by now but nothing has been added to this docket as a result of it. That may even be the case.

          It’s really too bad it is impossible to copy/paste the contents of these correspondences. I think they’re really important. I’m just too lazy/whatever to type them. I think this is a really important thing that is going on.

          • Marti Reed says

            To be honest, the biggest issue I have with the higher echelons of the Arizona State Department of Forestry is the decision to place a short Type 2 Incident Management Team in charge of the fire for June 30.

            Especially given the fact that a full Type 2 Incident Management Team was available close by IN PRESCOTT at that time.

            And especially given the fact that the short team was totally under-resourced and the IC spent most of Sunday filling in the holes in his team, instead of actually fighting the fire, including calling in resources from the full team.

            Basically Shumate called for a Type 2 team late Saturday night, but he was too brain-dead by then to fill out a REQUIRED Escaped Fire Analysis, and SOMEBODY at Arizona Department of Forestry, apparently unimpressed by the potential DANGER of that ESCAPED fire, let that “little” detail go by and ordered that Short Team, and Shumate said “OK, WHATEVER….”

            During the ADOSH interviews, under the time-pressure they were under, unfortunately, they never managed to comprehend the significance of this enough to ask the important questions about it. They just didn’t quite get there, although they almost did.

            I’m thinking, thus, that this is one of the areas they want to ask Hunt about, given the written reasons (which I am too lazy/whatever to type out) that they included in the request for this deposition.

            It is relevant that some of the reasons ADOF (sorry but I never have been able to figure out exactly what is the exactly appropriate acronym for the Arizona Department of Forestry) is contending the deposition of Hunt is that ADOSH already conducted their interviews and that if they didn’t gather enough information to actually support their charges, that is THEIR problem.

            Also, (and I am writing this off the top of my head and it’s late but I think it’s important) another thing ADOSH wants a deposition of Hunt has to do with what seem to be some National Weather Service (or maybe some other agency) meetings/briefings during the week before the Yarnell Hill Fire was ignited, having to do with EXTREME POTENTIAL FIRE WEATHER BEHAVIOR CONDITIONS in the area, and whether or not ADOF was paying any attention to them.

            I’ve seen some things noting that that was, indeed, happening, but I can’t, at the moment, refer to them.

            So I just want to note that these are the things that are, I think, involved in this whole back and forth that is going on regarding the deposition of Scott Hunt.

            • Marti Reed says

              I wrote up above:

              “and the IC spent most of Sunday filling in the holes in his team, instead of actually fighting the fire…”

              Which may be the reason why any kind of over-all STRATEGY for seriously mapping/planning out and paying serious attention to what was happening in Division A, as it related to the overall fire, even before the 2:00 PM, much less the 3:30 Pm, NWS, was totally failing to happen.

  24. WantsToKnowTheTruth says

    **
    ** THE DOZER HAD A 12 FOOT ( FIXED ) BLADE

    Reply to Bob Powers post on May 27, 2015 at 11:46 am

    >> Bob Powers said…
    >>
    >> ALL BLACK IS NOT EQUAL—You are correct how ever in fire terms cold or hot has
    >> to have a control LINE on it fully tied in. you cannot contain or control the fire
    >> without that line totally in.
    >>
    >> When we were discussing Cold trailing on Saturday on Initial Attack that is totally
    >> different once you stop the fire spread you go back and build line in those
    >> cold trail areas.
    >>
    >> Once the fire made the next day it required line on every inch of the fire direct or
    >> indirect. That is how it is done and that is what’s required.
    >>
    >> You do not cut corners.
    >> You build complete and tied in line. COLD BLACK OR NOT.
    >>
    >> The indirect cat line was a serious problem.
    >> Most tractor blades are 8 foot wide
    >> Was this a 12 foot blade?
    >> In all those rocks a 8 foot blade would be more functional

    Yes. It was a 12 foot ( fixed ) blade… and both SPGS1 Gary Cordes and
    Blue Ridge ( Frisby, Brown, Ball, etc. ) were disappointed about that.

    From PDF page 22 of the original SAIT Interview Notes…
    This is from the SAIT’s interview with SPGS1 Gary Cordes…
    ———————————————————————————-
    0800-0900
    – Dozer arrived. Took dozer I to put it to work.
    I didn’t like that it had a 12 ft. blade.
    0930
    – Blue Ridge showed up.
    – Dozer boss (Ball) took over the dozer.’’
    – It was ¾ of the way to the old dozer.
    – Eric said he didn’t want the dozer.
    ———————————————————————————-

    Key phrase(s)…

    Gary Cordes: “I didn’t like that it had a 12 ft. blade”.

    “Eric said he didn’t want the dozer”.

    NOTE: So here we have confirmation from SPGS1 Gary Cordes that not only did DIVSA Eric Marsh say he didn’t need the Blue Ridge Crew to be helping out with any linebuilding alongside Granite Mountain that day… Marsh ALSO said he didn’t need the bulldozer, either.

    In addition to the bulldozer having a disappointing 12 foot blade… there is also testimony that Blue Ridge was disappointed about it NOT being an ‘angled’ blade…

    From PDF page 60 of the original SAIT Interview Notes.
    This is from the SAIT’s Blue Ridge Interview notes…
    ———————————————————————————-
    There ( Blue Ridge’s ) original assignment was to relieve Gary Cordes, with the Structure Group. Brian and Trew came across the Dozer, he wasn’t carded Trew grabbed an extra radio/cloned it and gave it the Dozer operator, DOZP. The fire had been picking up all day, 6ft fl. Trew had Ball work with DOZP who didn’t know who he was working for, he had no supervisor, no division. DOZP said he was trying to be flexible with no plan. Trew made an announcement over radio Ball was working for Trew and had them go to Tac 3 because Trew had been scanning it all day and heard nothing going on figured it wasn’t really being used. They were to punch the road and open it up, the area near the grater and go towards GM. B and T went to the explosive sign and realized they couldn’t go any further.

    They were not at the 0900 briefing when the incoming team came in. @ 1100 they did notice buildup from the NE they were trying to bring the dozer line towards GM with the T1 dozer but were having a real tough time. It was steep, the DOZP didn’t have an angled blade, it was too hard.
    ———————————————————————————-

    Key phrase(s)…

    “…the DOZP didn’t have an angled blade, it was too hard”.

    “B and T went to the explosive sign and realized they couldn’t go any further”.

    NOTE: There yet another reference to this infamous ‘explosives sign’. This suggests that the ‘explosives’ sign really was right there at the END of that ‘Jeep Trail’ that led away from the old-grader to the northwest. That’s the route that Brian Frisby ( B ) and Trueheart Brown ( T ) took when first trying to get up to the high-ridge to meet with Marsh and Steed. When ‘B and T’ found out that ‘Jeep Trail’ leading northwest from the old grader was a ‘dead end’ ( at the explosives sign ), they turned around, went back past the old-grader, and then took that OTHER two-track leading away from the old-grader is a southerly direction That’s the one that Steed and the GM crew hiked out to the ridge on earlier that morning.

    • Bob Powers says

      Yes a full 12 ft. blade would have been a problem especially with out the ability to angle it.
      Made it a serious problem for line construction.

      • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

        This dozer that arrived with the 12 foot ( fixed ) blade still appears to have been on loan from Yavapai County.

        It is BR Hotshot Cory Ball himself who says the dozer operator ( whose name is still unknown ) was a COUNTY EMPLOYEE.

        From Blue Ridge Hotshot Cory Ball’s typed Unit Log…
        ——————————————————————————–
        Blueridge One requested me plus one to travel to fires edge.
        I was assigned ( to be DOZB because the ) county employee
        not IA qualified and did not have a radio.
        Gave radio from BRIHC to operator (xxxxxxx).
        ——————————————————————————–

        SIDENOTE: ‘Blueridge One’ is a reference to Blue Ridge Superintendent Brian Frisby. It was OPS1 Todd Abel that called Frisby at 10:00 AM and requested they get someone HEQB / DOZB qualified out there to relieve Gary Cordes on the dozer.

        That was the ONLY assignment that OPS1 Todd Abel gave Frisby at 10:00 AM.

        It was Frisby who then decided that rather then just run Cory Ball out there from the Yarnell Hill Fire Station… he would now have the entire Blue Ridge Crew ‘mount up’ and relocate out to the Sesame Clearing area where GM had parked their own Crew Carriers.

        That is where the Blue Ridge Crew would then sit for the next 4-5 HOURS doing NOTHING… until Gary Cordes decided to try that desperation move and clear out that Cutover Trail from the Sesame Clearing over to the Shrine Youth Camp and Harper Canyon areas.

        Testimony now shows that DIVSA Eric Marsh actually REFUSED to let Blue Ridge help Granite Mountain with their line work that day.

        So Granite Mountain busted their butts from 10:00 AM to 3:30 PM that day… while the entire Blue Ridge Crew sat around just about 3/4 of a mile away ( to the east ) down that two-track doing absolutely nothing at all for most of the day.

        That still doesn’t make ANY sense… especially since Gary Cordes ended up calling around later that afternoon wondering why Granite Mountain hadn’t FINISHED their assignment yet.

        If Eric Marsh had simply ALLOWED the Blue Ridge Crew to help with that line work up there on that ridge… maybe that entire project up there would have been ‘a wrap’ by as early as 2 PM that day… and none of us would even be here having this conversation.

  25. Bob Powers says

    So the Deposition got canceled again this time the Lawyers could not agree on who got to ask questions. Are you freeking kidding me? In the Prescott Dailey Courier This morning.

    • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

      The Prescott Daily Courier
      Article Title: Hotshot deposition cancelled today
      Published: 5/28/2015 6:01:00 AM
      http://dcourier.com/main.asp?SectionID=1&SubSectionID=1086&ArticleID=145802

      From the article…
      ————————————————————-
      A deposition by former Granite Mountain Hotshot Brendan McDonough scheduled to occur today, May 28, has been cancelled, his attorney David Shapiro said Wednesday.

      McDonough was prepared to give a statement about what he experienced on June 30, 2013, when all the other 19 Granite Mountain Hotshots died in the Yarnell Hill wildfire, Shapiro said. He was acting as a lookout in a location away from his fellow hotshots.

      But attorneys representing the state and other civil litigants couldn’t agree on which attorneys should be able to be present and question McDonough, Shapiro said. McDonough was prepared to allow ALL the attorneys to question him, Shapiro said.
      ————————————————————-

      Key statement…

      “McDonough was prepared to allow ALL the attorneys to question him, Shapiro said”.

      So now it’s lawyer David Shapiro’s turn to piss all over the process and feel like HE is getting HIS way, or something?

      Fer cryin’ out loud.

      You just can’t make this kind of shit up.

      I wonder who is going to play David Shapiro in Scott Cooper’s MOVIE?

      SIDENOTE: Scott Cooper’s latest movie… “Black Mass” ( with Johnny Depp playing gangster Whitey Bulger ) ran into some post-production issues but those have all been resolved and now there are trailers out for “Black Mass”. Release date this summer.

      So rumor has it that Director Scott Cooper ( Crazy Heart, Black Mass, etc. ) is now going to turn his full attention to the Granite Mountain movie project that was announced last June.

      • Marti Reed says

        From the article, which I had found yesterday:

        “Director Scott Cooper (“Crazy Heart” and “Out of the Furnace”) is no longer planning to work on the hotshot film, his spokesperson said..

          • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

            Thank you. I didn’t see that article appearing just yesterday.

            That’s the same producer that was announced back in June of 2014.

            Did you also see this from yesterday’s article?

            Same producer that will be doing the ‘Granite Mountain’ movie is CURRENTLY working with actor Mark Wahlberg on a movie about the “Deppwater Horizon” incident.

            From the Joanna Dodder Nellans PDC article…
            ————————————————————————-
            Di Bonaventura has worked with actors ranging from “The Rock” Dwayne Johnson on one of di Bonaventura’s G.I. Joe movies to Mark Wahlberg on his latest “Transformers” movie. Di Bonaventura currently is working on “Deepwater Horizon” with Wahlberg, reports the IMDb website.
            ————————————————————————–

      • Marti Reed says

        So, what do you think “other civil litigants” in “But attorneys representing the state and other civil litigants couldn’t agree on which attorneys should be able to be present and question McDonough” means?

        • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

          Speaking for myself… I believe ‘other civil litigants’ in that article is simply a reference to the plantiffs in the wrongful death lawsuits.

          So I believe the ‘shorthand’ being used in the article is…

          “Attorneys representing the state” = Any attorney from the Arizona State Attorney general’s office that has been ‘assigned’ to represent Arizona Forestry in EITHER the “Arizona Forestry vs. ADOSH” ALJ Hearing process *OR* in the “wrongful death” lawsuits *OR* in the other “Property damage” lawsuits.

          “Other civil litigants” = Anyone who isn’t a lawyer representing either Arizona Forestry or ADOSH. That leaves the plaintiffs in the ‘wrongful death’ lawsuits AND the remaining 150+ plaintiffs in whatever still-active ‘property damage’ suits haven’t been dismissed yet.

          It’s really, really bizarre how this McDonough deposition thing is going down.

          It would APPEAR to be happening in the ‘context’ of the “Arizona Forestry versus ADOSH” ALJ Hearing track… since that is where we have been seeing all the documents appearing asking ALJ Judge Michael Mosesso to not only authorize this McDonough deposition…but to subpoena him to be there.

          But even though all that correspondence has been showing up in the public part of the ALJ Hearing file… the actual despostion seems to be of great concern to the lawyers in the OTHER no-shit Civil Court cases like the wrongful-death lawsuits and the remaining ‘property-damage’ lawsuits.

          So it’s hard to say who all the “playas” are in this McDonough DEPOSITION game… or what the TRUE ‘context’ of it is.

          Example: Regardless of the documents we’ve seen flying about this McDonough deposition in the “Arizona Forestry vs. ADOSH” ALJ Hearing File… there is no true guarantee that whatever recorded TRANSCRIPT there might be resulting from this deposition could be considered PART of the “Arizona Foresty vs. ADOSH” proceeding.

          After the deposition… we might ‘discover’ that Arizona Forestry wants the actual ‘written TRANSCRIPT’ to suddenly appear to be part of the ‘evidence’ for either the ‘wonrful death’ or the ‘property damage’ lawsuits.

          There’ no telling, really. It’s all very incestuous at this point on the Arizona legal defense side of things.

          Same lawyers are ‘helping out’ with ALL THREE cases… ‘behind the scenes’.

      • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

        Correction for above. It’s really not clear WHICH attorneys are now currently having the disagreements that have led to this THIRD cancellation.

        Mr. Shapiro is the ‘messenger’ in the PDC article but it’s actually not clear if there are are also objections on HIS part contributing to this cancellation.

        It’s hard to say how this gets resolved.

        Theoretically… we should now see some documents appearing in the ALJ Hearing file pretty quickly detailing what the real issues are now. Judge Moses so will probably have to chime in on this.

        • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

          I’m also not sure the consternation at this point has all that much to do with WHICH lawyers are ‘allowed’ to be there at the deposition.

          I think the real issue now is more along the lines of lawyers representing Arizona Forestry getting VERY worried about which QUESTIONS will be asked.

          THEY ( the Arizona Forestry lawyers ) know which questions THEY plan to ask… but they probably have NO IDEA what questions attorneys representing ADOSH are planning on asking.

          And we also haven’t seen anybody even REQUESTING that they ‘pre-submit’ any kind of list of questions.

          It’s just a deposition. I don’t think there is actually a LEGAL requirement for either side to pre-submit that kind of ‘list of questions’.

          Brendan ALWAYS has the right ( either during a deposition or when actually on a witness stand ) to assert his own 5th ammendment rights… but ONLY if he feels the answer to a question he is being asked might result in slef-incrimination.

          Brendan still can’t invoke the 5th ammendment just because he doesn’t want to answer a question or because the actual ( TRUE ) answer might reflect badly on “his brothers”… or something.

          The 5th ammendment is only there for PERSONAL protection. You can’t invoke it just to protect someone ELSE or to just avoid answering a question you don’t like.

          But all that being said… since Brendan’s lawyer seems to be saying that Brendan was prepared to answer questions from ANY / ALL lawyers… that Mr. Shapiro has already advised Brendan of the realities just mentioned… and Brendan is OK with all that.

          This now seems to have something to do with what has happened since the last cancelled depostion.

          Just before February 26, 2015… the Arizona Forestry lawyers seemed perfectly OK with the ADOSH lawyers being at the deposition and basically asking whatever questions they wanted.

          Now… all of a sudden… that’s some kind of ‘show stopping’ issue.

          The only BIG difference between now and then is that Prescott City Attorney Jon Paladini has spilled his guts about what Darrell Willis told him and the fact that McDonough now wants to “get stuff off his chest”.

          I’m not 100 percent sure how that Paladini moment could have changed things to the point where suddenly Arizona Forestry doesn’t even WANT the ADOSH lawyers to ask any/all questions of McDonough…

          …but it does seem like it has had something to do with what happened today.

          I fully expect ALJ Hearing Judge Michael Mosesso to show up with his big wooden spanking paddle here at any moment.

          He’s been more than patient with these lawyers.

          • Marti Reed says

            Thank you so much, WTKTT, for wrestling with this, It is SO confusing. And I could easily walk away from trying to understanding it because of its MIND-NUMBINGNESS.

            One thing I find standing out in the confusion of ALL OF THIS (after reading everything posted upstream) is Brendan’s apparent open-ness (desire?) to be questioned by WHATEVER lawyers, while the agency lawyers battle all around him.

            I find that significant, all things considered.

            Although I could be wrong.

            He doesn’t seem to be the one “protecting Brendan.” Could that possibly mean he was never all that interested in “being protected”??????

            Which would mean somebody else was much more interested in “being protected”?????

            I know you have, and possibly correctly, more of a personal narrative of Brendan essentially “gaming everybody.” And that is, indeed, what it often looks like.

            But this current situation doesn’t look like that to me. It looks, to me, more like Brendan being perfectly willing to be deposed (that thing that everybody says is so so so so so difficult to go through) and questioned by whatever lawyers from whichever sides, and the Arizona Department of Forestry being the ones throwing the monkey wrenches into the whole thing……

            ……….which is ironic, given their initial desire to have him deposed.

            Which says to me ADOF ONLY wants him to be deposed by THEIR lawyers, and nobody else.

            That’s what it looks like to me right now.

            Awhile back I wrote that it Brendan really had a story he wanted to get off his chest, he should really just head over to Joanna Dodder’s office and get it off his chest.

            There were all kinds of reasons pointed out to me why that most likely wouldn’t have been the case.

            I could be way way way off the mark here, but wouldn’t it be ironic if that’s exactly what he did, out of total frustration with all the lawyers, including his own, right now?

            He could just go to her and say, “I don’t even know if I’m even remembering all this stuff correctly, because it’s easy to get stuff like this all jumbled up, but I’m totally sick and tired of all the games that are being played right now, and I just want to tell my story as I best remember it right now and let the chips fall where they may.”

            • Marti Reed says

              I mean, really, if he’s willing to be deposed and questioned by WHATEVER lawyers,

              I can’t believe he would be, by now after all of this insanity, afraid of being seriously interviewed by Joanna Dodder.

              Or even more interestingly, and probably hard-nosedly, by Yvonne Wingett Sanchez at Arizona Central. What a scoop THAT would be.

              • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

                I’m starting to sound like a broken record on this one… but I really do believe that it would be a mistake if Brendan just waltzed into a TV studio… or even just wrote some kind of ‘OP ED’ piece or posted something on his Facebook page with the signoff “…and that’s the TRUTH”.

                It’s about CREDIBILITY now. ( Brendan’s ).

                He really does owe it to himself and the families of these so-called ‘brothers’ of his to finally do what he should have done in the first place and make it as BELIEVABLE as he can.

                No matter what he does now… there will still be people who think he is still just pursuing how own ‘agenda’.

                But an under-oath deposition ( with actual possible perjury implications and penalties ) would be the BEST way to have whatever Brendan has to say now be accepted by the greatest number of people as “the TRUTH”.

                Regardless of what anyone has been ‘advising’ him to do or not do… Brendan is an ADULT who has dug this hole for himself and allowed himself to be in the position he finds himself.

                He is the one who has to ‘find the way out now’… and in a manner that doesn’t make it look like he’s STILL pursuing his own agenda and still jerking everyone around.

                • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

                  And yes.. even if the problem yesterday had nothing to do with Brendan and it’s now all about just the way the Arizona Forestry lawyers want it to ‘go down’… I think Mr. Shapiro needs to do HIS job and work this all out with his fellow lawyers on behalf of his client.

                  It really would be in Brendan’s BEST INTERESTS at this point for this official, sworn, under-oath deposition to take place… and Mr. Shapiro should do all he can to work through this setback and make it happen.

                  • Marti Reed says

                    No, you don’t sound like a broken record.

                    It’s just the way these conversations happen “here.”

                    And, yes, I’m realizing what you are saying is correct.

                    And I appreciate you saying that Brendan’s lawyer has some obligation to try to help untangle this thing, on behalf of his client.

                    • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

                      Something really funky must have gone down in order for this THIRD scheduled deposition to be cancelled.

                      Arizona Forestry lawyers needed this one to happen just as badly as they needed the Feb 26 one to happen because in just a few hours from now they have to ( again ) walk into a room and sit across the table from the ‘wrongful death’ plaintiffs.

                      Arizona Forestry still needs to know what Brendan really knows just as badly today as the did the night of March 1, 2015… the day before the ‘global mediation’ session.

                      We have not heard if the pre-scheduled June 1, 2015 mediation has been cancelled.

                      So it’s Deja-Vu all over again.

                      Arizona Forestry has to walk into a meeting and try to ‘settle’ these ‘wrongful death’ suits without knowing what Brendan McDonough really knows.

                      It’s going to be interesting to find out what could have been so objectionable yesterday that Arizona Forestry would have allowed it to be the reason they still don’t get to know what Brendan knows.

  26. Marti Reed says

    So……looking at Joy’s photos from her email. They still don’t “sync” numerically with what she wrote below in her descriptions of the photos that we couldn’t figure out what she was referring to.

    The file numbers start with CAM00473.jpg and run through CAM00526.jpg and look to be screensnaps of looking at a site or something that doesn’t look like what their Google site looks to me like. So I don’t know what these photos are of.

    They also say, in the metadata, “Make: LG Electronics, Model LG-L38C.” I don’t know what that refers to. They also have the date of 5/24/15, which, I assume, is when she captured those screensnaps.

    But some of what she is describing in her string of comments below corresponds to some of what I am seeing.

    And some of these photos I have never seen before, neither on the two Google Albums nor on the collection of “Hiker Photos and Videos” on JD’s Dropbox collection from the FOIA release. So I don’t know who took them, although a number of them DO correspond to her files either/both on Google or Dropbox.

    A thought at this preliminary moment. One of Joy’s concerns has ALWAYS been the photo of the two fire-fighters up high on the ridge (which is, in its original format in the Dropbox collection).

    I have to say here that when I zoomed way way in on that photo and tried to enhance it’s “viewability.” (which is not all that powerful, to be honest–people have a tendency to think one can work miracles on these–they can’t) the most important thing I saw was that both had black helmets on and neither had a RED helmet on. That is very very clear. Which means, I don’t think Eric is in that photo.

    Which is why I always thought that the two firefighters in that photo must have had to do with either the crew (part of the moki helitack crew plus part of the doc crew) that was being removed from the fire on Sunday morning via helicopter.

    Joy DOES HAVE photos in her Google album that I haven’t seen in the Dropbox collection of another fire-fighter in the rocks down below. I also think that firefighter has a black helmet on, but it’s hard to be sure.

    I downloaded A BUNCH of her Google Album photos, but, unfortunately, I discovered that when you download them, they are in a tiny format and stripped of all their metadata, so that when looking at them in lightroom, they’re really small and I can’t tell when they are time-stamped.

    Joy has some VERY interesting photos in the bunch she emailed to me and Bob Powers, and I forwarded tonight to WTKTT. A number of which I haven’t seen before. But I still don’t know how to exactly correlate them with the notes she wrote downstream.

    If it’s any help, if Joy could re-described those photos using the filenames attached to them in her email, that would really help us correlate those descriptions with the photos I think she is talking about.

    And a question to Joy: Did you take all of these photos?

    And an unrelated related side-note, since I’m a Human.

    The weather systems (El Nino (that is making life wonderful and lovely in New Mexico – because it’s pretty much dousing our wildfire season) are also causing all the havoc in Texas. So I’m experiencing some feelings about that. And I was aware of that while looking at the Fire Danger maps that show Oregon and Washington totally “in the red.”

    Let us all keep in mind that wildfire danger transcends our thinking about the Yarnell Hill Fire. I know we all are aware of that. I just wanted to say that.

    • Marti Reed says

      So Joy wrote downstream May 27, 2015 at 11:14 AM:

      “what I so far came across but the old gas tank is directly next to sign so if we can gps that photo that may help.”

      The image she sent in her email that looks to me like an “old gas tank” is CAM00513.jpg. I’m not positive this is what she’s talking about and I’m not sure this is going to be easy to geotag. But, apparently, I think this may be where she is trying to head us.

          • joy a. collura says

            very quick- Today on my travels of Congress…I started at the library until 4pm than dropped off laptop and visited retired sheriff home to ask if any new news on fire and hello from lois to him and off i went and i hiked all over town and spoke to people and one person says they may have that photo of explosive sign from hike I took them so we will see…I put flyers up…

            Outdoor Adventure Awaits…Adaptive Hiking

            I may have disabilities but I also have ABILITIES!
            It begins with one foot in front of the other.
            We all have our challenges—-I simply acknowledge mine and accept my new-normal and that’s okay!
            …..etc….well… long flyer…anyways in it I got one reply already and at end of flyer I said “until the day I pass on- always there for all affected by the YHF.” and the person was not reaching me for hiking information but wants to meet and show their account so working on that…
            I explained to the person the funny thing is at the library today the patrons suggested me make a flyer on hiking but put that at end about the fire and I will probably see people identify…oh the desert walker…we know her…let’s talk about the fire…hope more surface.
            You never know.
            I am beat. I was going to zone out either on photos or craigslist and I thought nah, sleepie time for me. I really appreciate the TOGETHERNESS here on this site and off the site—thank you. I too believe in what you believe Marti…enjoyed the email…I read it a few times…was just on cell and was tired to reply and I cannot log on to my email except for cell because I forgot the password. good night. I was asked by many they are shocked how many days in a row I hiked solo without Sonny and how am I doing it…I said I cant go out in the desert but for now I am not the desert walker but the street walker…runner…bum knee…reckon getting old is the best…Street walker? Too funny.

            • Marti Reed says

              Special secret. Turn you camera to black and white and be a “street photographer.”

              It’s very hip.

  27. Marti Reed says

    Only have time to jump in quickly.

    WantsToKnowTheTruth wrote on MAY 26, 2015 AT 3:46 PM:

    “Neither Gabbert, MacLean or Neill mention one word about all the ERRORS that are in Kyle Dickman’s own book, as published.
    …………..

    But there is still no mention on MacLean or Neill’s part ( or Gabbert, either ) of how far off-base Kyle Dickman himself was.

    If MacLean and Neill actually think the Dickman book itself IS ‘totally accurate’… then that doesn’t bode well for anything they might be thinking about publishing themselves.”

    I just discovered that Holly Neill wrote a LONG and SCATHING critique of KD’s book on Amazon.com, citing many of the things we have noted. In fact it’s so long it is too long to completely quote here.

    GoingDirect is Holly Neill:

    “3 of 6 people found the following review helpful
    Subject Matter Experts will undoubtedly note discrepancies…
    May 15, 2015
    Format: Kindle EditionVerified Purchase

    As an avid inquirer into the Yarnell Hill Fire, I believe that reliable facts are critical in unraveling the events that led to this tragic loss of 19 wildland firefighters. As a former wildland firefighter with over a decade of seasonal wildland fire experience, I admit I can be a harsh critic of those, even other firefighters, who write about important wildland fire events. But I also have the greatest respect for accurate and true to life accounts.

    There are factual errors in this book: some of them relatively minor and some not. In fairness, the available information about the fire is almost overwhelming, but it’s also incomplete. After all, the Serious Accident Investigation and a separate, later investigation by the Arizona Department of Occupational Safety and Health contradicted each other and neither was comprehensive enough to satisfy anyone with an inquiring mind.
    …………………………………….

    A firefighter’s home unit identification matters in a fatal fire, especially when it defines the agency in charge. On page 182, Mr. Dickman identifies Russ Shumate, the first incident commander on the Yarnell Hill Fire, as “ an incident commander for the Yavapai County Fire Department.” This is inaccurate. Shumate was Assistant Fire Management Officer for the Phoenix District of the Arizona State Forestry Division, for whom he had worked for about 16 years. Shumate’s involvement on the Yarnell Hill Fire was significant. He served as incident commander Type 4 from the beginning of the fire until the day of the fatalities, a period of nearly 48 hours. Mr. Dickman does not offer comprehensive detail about this critical timeframe during which the fire grew into a large and deadly conflagration. Shumate’s actions during that time reflect Arizona state fire policies and procedures and are an important part of the story.

    Of particular importance is Mr. Dickman’s handling of a critical radio exchange involving Eric Marsh, who normally filled the role of Granite Mountain superintendent, but was assigned Division Supervisor on the fire. Marsh has been accused of a 33 minute gap in communications as he led the crew down, and absolute conclusions state that no one knew of the crew’s plans to descend. It takes time and effort to sort out audio recordings in the Yarnell Hill Fire public records, to decipher what is being said and by whom. Mr. Dickman feels certain that a conversation time stamped 1614 hours in the audio evidence, (which is during the reported 33 minute gap,) has Marsh talking with Bravo 33 (call sign for Air Support Module).

    This audio includes additional important dialog with Marsh, which is not included in the author’s account. It is critical to accurately identify who Marsh is speaking with during this timeframe. Available evidence strongly suggests that this particular conversation was between Marsh and someone else, not Bravo 33.

    Marsh can also be heard in additional audio nearly 14 minutes later, which is also within the notorious 33 minute gap. He speaks with someone who urges the crew to “go a little faster”. This conversation is not discussed by the author and it also plays a very important role in the timeline.
    ……………………………………..

    The surviving Granite Mountain hotshot Brendan McDonough is due to be deposed in May of 2015, telling his story under oath for the first time. Mr. Dickman spoke often with McDonough and I hope that Mr. Dickman’s account from McDonough holds up regarding a crucial point, supporting the view that there was no disagreement about whether the crew should leave their position and head for Yarnell, despite recent rumors that there was some kind of quarrel between Division Supervisor Eric Marsh and acting Granite Mountain hotshot superintendent Jesse Steed. Mr. Dickman writes: ”Ultimately the choice was Marsh’s, and the orders Donut heard him deliver were clear: Move the crew along the escape route. If Steed or anybody else questioned his decision, they did so discreetly, because on the crew’s radio channel, nobody openly disagreed with Marsh.”

    It would have been Marsh’s ultimate decision to move the crew and this shouldn’t surprise anyone. The crucial unanswered questions remain why and what factors contributed to Marsh’s decision? The task of sorting out the Yarnell Hill Fire will take years. It is fluid, dynamic and constantly evolving. Mr. Dickman’s book is probably the first of many, but despite the publicity claim it’s a long way from being a “definitive” account.”

    • Marti Reed says

      Oops, forgot the link:

      This goes to page 2 of the comments on the Amazon Book Page for Kyle Dickman’s “On the Burning Edge: A Fateful Fire and the Men Who Fought It,” where GoingDirect’s comment is located:

      http://www.amazon.com/product-reviews/0553392123/ref=cm_cr_pr_btm_link_next_2?k=On+the+Burning+Edge%3A+A+Fateful+Fire+and+the+Men+Who+Fought+It&showViewpoints=1&sortBy=helpful&reviewerType=all_reviews&formatType=all_formats&filterByStar=all_stars&pageNumber=2

    • Marti Reed says

      Also just realized that, when I was having to edit out all the junk Amazon patched into my copy/paste, I lost “GoingDirect”

      The header of the comment should read:

      “4 of 7 people found the following review helpful
      Subject Matter Experts will undoubtedly note discrepancies…
      ByGoingDirecton May 15, 2015
      Format: Kindle EditionVerified Purchase”

      • Joy A. Collura says

        we too did an Amazon review as the hikers but it has not shown up but right on Holly—
        clap, clap, clap.
        Fact check is stated in back of book but it was not used at all for our account and now it looks like Shumate too.

        • Marti Reed says

          And I agree.

          This book was NOT fact-checked, despite the vigor with which KD asserts it was.

          My Kindle version of it has about 50 red-lined “notes” where I find what he is writing is not consistent with the evidence.

        • Marti Reed says

          And I still find it APPALLING that he didn’t interview you and Sonny. For a whole host of reasons.

        • Marti Reed says

          Ok, just found the email with the photos, and, after a couple of false tries (because I’m AWFUL at email) I forwarded it to WTKTT.

          So we can look at them. I’m seeing some I’m familiar with and some I haven’t seen before.

          I’m going to open them and put them in lightroom and look at them.

          Thanks!

    • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

      Good catch. Yes… I would put the odds at about 99 percent that ‘GoingDirect’ is, in fact, Holly Neill.

      But even if not… the comments are spot on.

      Kyle Dickman did seriously screw up his reporting on that 4:14 PM “Granite Montun… wuz yo status rat now?” radio conversation, and Dickman does completely ignore the crucial 4:27 PM YARNELL-GAMBLE video/audio capture.

      Just these two screw-ups alone in the book make you wonder about the veracity of all those other things he says happened that can’t even be independently verified.

      And ‘GoingDirect’ is right. If Brendan McDonough finally shows up for his under-oath deposition tomorrow and the content becomes known… we will then discover whether what Dickman has stated in his book is true… or whether McDonough has been playing Dickman like a violin along with everyone else.

      • Marti Reed says

        If you click on GoingDirect, it’s, in fact, Holly Neill, unless someone is pretending to be her, which I can’t imagine, given that review.

        • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

          Notice also that even as careful as Holly is with regards to assuming anything… in HER mind that YARNELL-GAMBLE video does, in fact, capture Eric Marsh responding to some still-unknown mystery person who IS, in fact, speaking directly to Marsh and urging him to HURRY UP.

          Even here in this discussion we continue to at least try and hold out the possibility ( albeit very slim possibility ) that Eric Marsh was reporting GM’s progress to someone other than the person urging someone to HURRY UP.

          It really IS still crucial to discover who that other mysterious speaker is in that video… and whether gt hey really were urging Marsh and GM to Hurry up’ that day. It MAY have been influencing the decision making.

          • Marti Reed says

            Exactly.

            And, for the sake of that “honesty” thing, I feel a need to remind readers who haven’t been with us through this long, winding, rocky, journey that…….

            It was Holly and John who SHOCKED everybody, including us, with their theory, in January of 2014, that the videos demonstrated that Eric was “at” the Helms Ranch, AHEAD of the crew, in that video and thus, at that time.

            We spent the next four or so next months mostly disagreeing with that, and being all, THAT COULDN’T POSSIBLY BE TRUE because………and because………and because…………………………….. . We, to some extent, to be honest, thought she was NUTS.

            It’s only been since about August last summer that “we” (and that’s a loose “we” because we were very conflicted about this) started seeing more and more “evidence” that that, indeed, might have been the case.

            But we’re still not 100% SURE about that. We still SON’T KNOW exactly where Eric was during that time.

            So, it may be some kind of sign of progress that “we” and Holly have moved, over this time, to something like the same page.

            When I was first reading KD’s book, mostly with my internet down, and marking it up with my red digital magic marker, I thought about writing a “review” of the book on Amazon. But I’ve never done that before, so I hesitated.

            And then I forgot about it, and, frankly, have been so disappointed in what would otherwise be an interesting book, that I just put it all aside.

            I appreciate Holly taking the time to write that up in at least enough detail to make the point. I wouldn’t even have been able to decide which of my many many red digital magic marker “errors” to begin with, much less continue to include, there are so many of them.

            Seriously, if I had ever written anything like that in college or graduate school, I would have been “failed.” And if I had continued to do it, I would have been “booted.” I have no doubt in my mind about that, whatsoever.

      • Marti Reed says

        And yes. The deposition is scheduled for tomorrow.

        And, as you wrote downstream, it has to be included in the documents on the ADOSH site.

        Maybe Kyle was so focused on “his story” which he has been developing all along, and “his contacts,” that he wasn’t paying any attention to what Holly and John were doing, much less what we and JD have been doing.

        I went back and read thru his earlier articles and interviews, and the book is basically the same story expanded.

        But, really, I was like, “wait, he’s saying Shumate was CYFD??????”

        The one pretty much did it for me. That’s a HUGE blunder.

        Plus, he said Gary Cordes was Structure Protection (I’m not looking at the book ATM, so I might get it slightly wrong) Specialist FOR the Town of Yarnell (like as if he was employed by them) and Darrell Willis was Structure Protection Specialist FOR the town of Peeples Valley (same tone).

        It’s like he never bothered to even research how the fire was even staffed.

        OK Gotta Run Will Be Back.

        • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

          I think Dickman ended up with the best book that HE, himself, was capable of producing.

          I think he WAS waiting ( and hoping ) like a lot of other people that Brendan McDonough would stop playing his bullshit games at any moment… but the longer that all went on I think he just started getting pressure from his publishers to go with whatever he had… and make it just a ‘human interest’ thing.

          And I think Dickman was even relieved when his publishers basically gave him permission to do that. I think Dickman, himself, might have already had his own ‘moment’ with himself along the lines of…

          “Holy shit… this is complicated. Someone REALLY doesn’t want the truth coming out here… and I’m not a professional investigator. I’m just gonna throw my interview notes together… lace ’em up with a basic storyline.. and I’m outta here. Let someone ELSE figure out what the hell really happened here.”

          • Marti Reed says

            Could very well be. To at least a certain extent.

            But still, a month or so in the midst of all that time, of paying some attention to some of the BASIC FACTS (like who the Overhead was actually working for and how they were structured on the fire) so someone like me wouldn’t have around fifty red digital magic marker notes in my Kindle edition about pretty basic things, would have done some wonders for his credibility, because Holly is not the only person increasingly questioning it.

            At this point, the “talk-talk” is about how everybody is even more counting on John Maclean writing the “REAL” book.

            And you know that ain’t gonna even BEGIN to happen until more of this legal stuff plays itself out a lot more. John Maclean knows how to not bow down to publisher pressure.

            I do think it was time for SOMETHING book-like to come out.

            And KD could have pulled this off with at least a bit more BASIC research, a LOT more humility (as in a disclaimer that a lot of stuff is still either muddy or still being SAT UPON, and so he has to “imagine” how things might have been — and drop all this crappola about this being THE DEFINITIVE narrative), and, what, a day or two with Sonny and Joy??????

            There would be a whole lot more people appreciating the book (including me) rather than thinking, hmmmmmmm what else did he screw up on or make up and thus make it so I have no clue what to believe when I read his narrative(s).

            Now that I’ve written all of this, I’m sitting here thinking about how it’s interesting that, given what Holly wrote on Amazon about the book, the article on Wildfire Today doesn’t include anything about her critique of his book, just her critique about the decidedly AWFUL review of the book.

            And the world turns.

            And I STILL can’t fathom, even though I’ve read other peoples’ comments in response to what I wrote, why, if it was so important to build that handline, Blue Ridge sat around playing cards all day while Granite Mountain was putting in the sweat equity.

            I guess there’s just something missing in how my brain works.

            Oh, and somebody asked about EN’s presentation to the American Meteorological Society on WildlandFire.com. It didn’t get much of a response.

            And on her blog, “somebody” had a post about how their favorite professor gave this presentation and “they” had submitted a bunch of questions to her about it and were waiting for her reply, even though “she” had said “she” wasn’t going to post the presentation publicly, …….

            ……so it’s impossible to know what she actually presented unless you were there.

            How convenient.

            • Marti Reed says

              And now that I’m piling things that don’t go here into here, while thinking about that handline, I want to say that I appreciate peoples’ writing about how that handline was still necessary, even though the dozer was cutting that dozer line across the top of the bowl. It makes sense.

              So thank you.

        • The Truth Will Always Remain Elusive says

          Marti,

          Depositions are not public record. There is a possibility that none of tomorrows deposition will ever see the light of day. If the case gets settled, I think that’s a given due to certain peoples desire to continue with the story line that no one did anything wrong.

          Also, even if the deposition information is given to the families as part of the settlement, it still may never see the light of day for the rest of us.

          • Marti Reed says

            I understand what you are saying.

            But I’m riffing off of WTKTT’s post a bit downstream that, because this deposition is in Mosesso’s court, and not the court of the lawsuits, it, legally speaking, doesn’t have anything to do with the lawsuits, and is, instead, ALL about the ADOSH vs ADOF tribunal, ALL of which, therefore, MUST be included in the (open, legally, to public inspection) docket on the ADOSH site.

            • The Truth Will Always Remain Elusive says

              Global Mediation = How to get everyone off the hook without anyone looking bad.

            • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

              All of the above is true… except for the ‘MUST be included’ phrase in the last sentence. I can’t find the exact post but if I actually said that I really didn’t mean to.

              Yes… ALJ Hearing Files are REQUIRED to be ‘public record’… and DURING the process itself.

              But NO… not EVERY SINGLE DOCUMENT that has to do with the challenge of the citations is required to be part of this ALJ Hearing file.

              Notice already in the existing ALJ Hearing file that certain ‘documents’ are referenced but they have NOT also been included in the ALJ Hearing file.

              Example: The LETTER that supposedly exists from Brendan’s supposed ‘therapist’ that Brendan would not be attending the February 26, 2015 under-oath deposition because he (supposed) had PTSD and this therapist (supposedly) thought it would be detrimental for Brendan to testify on that date.

              That LETTER has NOT been included in the actual ALK Hearing File, even though it is now being referenced in other documents and it’s also now a give that such a letter would NOT represent any kind of HIPPA violation were it to become public.

              TTWARE has it right up above.

              If Brendan’s deposition takes place as part of the proceedings for this “Arizona Forestry vs. ADOSH” hearing… it is NOT happening in the context of an actual “Civil Court Case” ( not really ) and that transcript MAY or MAY NOT actually end up in the online ALJ Hearing Files.

              A case where a document that we hadn’t seen before actually DID show up there was when Arizona Forestry was arguing about this whole ‘privilege log’ issue and they felt compelled to show Judge Mosesso the actual MANIFEST of documents they delivered to ADOSH… and their origin as far as AZF knew.

              We had never seen that ‘manifest’ before… even after many, many FOIA and Arizona Open Records requests were fulfilled by Arizona Forestry.

              So once again Arizona Forestry made it perfectly obvious that they have always had *some* Yarnell Hill related documents in their possession that they were ‘withholding’ from previous FOIA and Arizona Open Records requests.

              That COULD actually happen again with a transcript of Bredan’s interview. It COULD actually just become an ‘attachment’ to a filing to Jude Mosesso the way the SAIT document manifest did.

              But alas… TTWARE is also correct that depending on how all this goes down… the content of any depositions taken as part of this “Arizona Forestry vs. ADOSH” proceeding could become very difficult to obtain.

              At any moment… Arizona Forestry could withdraw their contest of the ADOSH citations and just agree to pay the damn fines and be done with it.

              If that actually happens… I am honestly not totally sure if even an Arizona Open Records request could get anywhere near that written transcription of Brendan’s under-oath deposition.

              And then TTWARE is spot-on again to mention that this strange-and-winding tale of the elusive Brendan McDonough and the games he has always been playing with pretty much EVERYONE here COULD get absolutely BURIED if Arizona Forestry itself makes it a hard-and-fast negotiating point over in the other ‘wrongful death’ court proceedings.

              Those ARE ‘Civil Cases’ duly registered and active in Arizona Civil Court… and in another judge’s courtroom.

              Access to Brendan’s written transcript over in the “ADOF vs. ADOSH” case is then just a matter of one attorney in the Arizona State Attorney General’s office handing an Arizona Open Records request to another attorney in the same office.

              Heck… in these twisted representations that could even come down to just one attorney in the AZ Attorney General’s office handing HIMSELF an ‘Arizona Open Records’ request.

              But that still doesn’t make it immediately public or immediately available.

              Arizona Forestry COULD start to play games and start to demand that the content of that deposition be SEALED as part of any ‘settlement’ with the families of the deceased.

              It actually would NOT surprise me if Arizona Forestry tries to do that… even if they ARE willing to settle the ‘wrongful death’ suits.

              Arizona Forestry still really, really, really, does NOT want ( and they have NEVER wanted ) the general media and the general public to know what actually happened out there that day.

              • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

                Followup…

                I am OPTIMISTIC that whatever Brendan finally has to say under-oath will become ‘common knowledge’ ( maybe not right away but in a reasonable amount of time )…

                …but TTWARE is still right.

                There are any number of possible scenarios whereby whatever Brendan has to say just becomes more ‘lost material’ just like the actual depositions and photos and videos that we KNOW were collected from the Peeples Valley Firefighters… but despite many, many FOIA and Arizona Open Records requests they still have yet to see the “light of day”.

                • Marti Reed says

                  Thank you so much, both of you TTWARE and WTKTT!

                  This stuff is SO complicated, and I appreciate mucho your helping me to better comprehend it.

                  It seems to me that ADOF’s relentless manipulations to with-hold evidence, that EVERYBODY KNOWS is going on, says, very clearly, to EVERYBODY, two things.

                  1. There is a bunch of stuff ADOF really really really really really doesn’t want anybody to know.

                  2. The above being true is some kind of acknowledgement that they know they/somebody didn’t do something right.

                  I understand an agency wanting to protect their “employees” from the kind of public scrutiny and BLAMING and legal damages that resulted from the Thirty-Mile Fire.

                  (Which is, of course, why the Arizona Legislature passed a bill and the governor signed it, to protect agencies from that).

                  However, I think, from what I’ve seen/read, that original “protectiveness” that originally influenced peoples’ thinking has been, all things considered, wearing thinner and thinner.

                  People know there’s something FISHY going on.

  28. WantsToKnowTheTruth says

    **
    ** STILL LOOKING FOR VERIFICATION ON EXPLOSIVES SIGN LOCATION

    Reply to joy a collura post on May 25, 2015 at 6:12 pm

    >> joy said…
    >>
    >> I will look again at the photos and when I see ANY photo I think you WWTKTT may be
    >> interested being I do not have your email I will at least email Bob & Marti them and
    >> they can say nah or yeah to you on here or private—sound oK?

    That’s fine, Joy, but as I said down below, it’s also not nearly as important to see an actual PHOTO of this infamous EXPLOSIVES sign as it is to simply get a confirmation ( from you, or someone, or anyone who knows ) regarding exactly WHERE IT IS out there on that two-track.

    Again… as I said down below… if you have just a moment or two… could you simply just click on the following link and tell me if the ‘red balloon’ marker that appears is where that EXPLOSIVES SIGN really is?

    https://www.google.com/maps/place/34%C2%B013%2759.8%22N+112%C2%B047%2714.2%22W/@34.233286,-112.787277,17z/data=!3m1!1e3

    Thanks in advance!

    NOTE: If a ‘popup’ box appears saying “Welcome to Google Maps!” and it is obscuring the ‘red balloon marker’ on the map… just click the ‘X’ CLOSE button on this popup window and get rid of it.

    There IS evidence that the dozer successfully improved that two-track leading away from the old-grader to the northwest all the way to the COLD BLACK… and that this infamous EXPLOSIVES sign did NOT deter them from doing that.

    That means that by about 12:30 PM on Sunday, June 30, 2013… there already WAS a ‘fully connected’ east-to-west dozer line stretching all the way from COLD BLACK in the west to the Sesame Clearing area to the EAST… and that this essentially already fulfilled the ‘plan’ of having this ‘line work’ completed that could be BURNED OUT later that evening when the wind died down.

    It also makes it more of a mystery what Granite Mountain was then CONTINUING to do up there all afternoon… until they got into serious TIME trouble and started making bad decisions that would then lead to their deaths.

    • Bob Powers says

      WTKTT JOY is having some bad health issues form what she said to me on E-Mail so may not respond for awhile she was trying to find a picture of the sign and was still looking.

      • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

        I understand. As I said above, though, it really isn’t nearly as important to see a photo of that infamous EXPLOSIVES sign as it is to just know exactly WHERE it is.

        I was hoping that ANYONE who knows that area could just take a moment, click on that link above, and verify if that is the location.

        • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

          Followup…

          Satellite imagery doesn’t lie. The post-fire satellite imagery DOES already indicate that the ‘Jeep Trail’ that leads away from old-grader to the northwest was, in fact, improved with the dozer to a width of almost two blades ( 24 feet ) all the way west to where the COLD BLACK already was that Sunday morning.

          Having someone finally confirm exactly WHERE this infamous EXPLOSIVES sign is would just help to verify things because there are a number of pieces of testimony in the public record regarding this EXPLOSIVES sign and how it was definitely a point on that two-track that was ‘reached’ and ‘improved’ by the dozer.

    • The Truth Will Always Remain Elusive says

      WTKTT said above:

      **That means that by about 12:30 PM on Sunday, June 30, 2013… there already WAS a ‘fully connected’ east-to-west dozer line stretching all the way from COLD BLACK in the west to the Sesame Clearing area to the EAST… and that this essentially already fulfilled the ‘plan’ of having this ‘line work’ completed that could be BURNED OUT later that evening when the wind died down.

      It also makes it more of a mystery what Granite Mountain was then CONTINUING to do up there all afternoon**
      ****************

      All BLACK is not equal. There is COLD BLACK, and then there is HOT BLACK. There is no evidence that I can recall that indicates the black was all COLD BLACK.

      With the burning conditions that existed that day, there were likely hot spots that were continuing to slowly chew against the wind into the un-burned grasses and brush. The only way to actually secure that section would be to line the edge, while working any threatening hot spots.

      I feel it’s likely their determination was that there was enough heat around in the black that they felt they had to line the whole thing to secure it.

      But, as you point out, any assistance that could have been provided to help in doing that, would seem to have been critical from a timing aspect.

      • Bob Powers says

        ALL BLACK IS NOT EQUAL—You are correct how ever in fire terms cold or hot has to have a control LINE on it fully tied in. you can not contain or control the fir with out that line totally in.

        When we were discussing Cold trailing on Saturday on Initial Attack that is totally different once you stop the fire spread you go back and build line in those cold trail areas.

        Once the fire made the next day it required line on every inch of the fire direct or indirect. That is how it is done and that is what’s required. You do not cut corners.
        You build complete and tied in line. COLD BLACK OR NOT.

        The indirect cat line was a serious problem. Most tractor blades are 8 foot wide was this a 12 foot blade? In all those rocks a 8 foot blade would be more functional

        Flip a coin on the BR crew they could have helped there and maybe not it was the Division Supervisors call. just more Chinese fire drill with lack of control and a plan by the IC. Division A did not lose the fire it was lost in the Northern part and burned under Division A Line The Cat line was the key but they could not fire it till night. their plan was to short sited.

        • The Truth Will Always Remain Elusive says

          Bob, you are correct. The control line has to be complete. In my attempt to explain that it, I made it sound like that was not the case.

      • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

        TTWARE said…
        “All black is not equal”.

        Exactly. That’s why I made sure to say COLD BLACK in that comment and not just BLACK.

        The point of convergence there where that dozer work seen in the post-fire satellite imagery meets the known black means the dozer would, in fact, have reached COLD BLACK created the day/night before.

        There is also no question there WAS some HOT BLACK out in that general area… and NOT just the HEAT that Granite Mountain themselves started that day with their own attempted indirect burnouts.

        There were ‘hot spots’ out there that are clearly visible even in the photos Joy Colours took before the GM crew even arrived out there and started lighting their own fires.

        The real question now is how all this ‘work’ that was going on all ‘related’.

        Did SPGS1 Gary Cordes KNOW that by 12:30 PM on Sunday he now already had a ‘completed dozer line’ all the way out to the cold black?

        • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

          Correction for above. TYPO.

          Obviously meant to type “Joy Collura” and not ‘Colours’.

          That was on a Smartphone with terrible keypad.

    • joy a collura says

      yes Bob is correct. I am in Congress- health not up to par and selling off some assets to meet life insurance premium and be able to do my cancer marker blood labs and cat scan which I had covered until I had to dish out some heavy funds due to another’s dubious sot behavior. Sonny is out by Bill Williams/Alamo Lake area with his dogs…one eyed horse and all the animals…I do miss the 5 foot iguana though and some of the peafowls—what an awesome photo to capture of 3 jackass/horse/turkey/peacocks and an iguana on the hiking trails and us. I do know I hiked it 6-13-13 and even before that many times and I have taken a photo of the sign and I sent Marti and Bob and now even Elizabeth requested a copy too but I did send her just the photos not the forward as requested to Bob/Marti what I so far came across but the old gas tank is directly next to sign so if we can gps that photo that may help. I will be at Congress Library on my laptop borrowing their bandwidth to do my craigslisting…selling my 2008 Suzuki S40 Boulevard, silver, 650cc 4 valve single cylinder ($2950)(I think I just sold it too) and misc. stuff to get back the funds I just put out. Dana DeLong is my interest to reach to do my FOIAs thanks to Dickman’s book because I catch things most would not even think to…now, as for your question. I WISH I had an organized system but out on the trails I was too limited in organizing so when I had time enough to do laundry I would unload my sd card to a thumb ehd but than 3 of my ehd is on the bluff of Lovelock NV thanks to someone…I can tell you as you see on the GOOGLE+ photos—some photos are not in sequence and some are—I cannot even “search” by date or year…my system has been messed some time and I have not been there to pay attention so again I will look for your photo that will have a gps on photo because I used a different camera on that hike—in 2016 after court thing is over I am willing to hike that area with someone who is approved to and I am too but I have NO INTEREST to put myself in a situation that can cause me any further bs. I am a simple gal—just the desert walker/house wife. I do meet with an investigator this week so I am looking forward to that. Good way to begin my start home. I am sure many would rather me be on trails with Sonny vs. me being home because that means I have the time—may not have the energy yet but I am walking and running to build me back up—may be slow but I will get there…so yes after long rambles WWTKTT I will keep looking for it after or in between my craiglisting…k.

  29. WantsToKnowTheTruth says

    **
    ** ERIC MARSH TOLD BRIAN FRISBY THAT THE GRANITE MOUNTAIN CREW DID
    ** NOT NEED THE BLUE RIDGE CREW’S HELP TO DO ANYTHING THAT DAY.

    Reply to Marti Reed post on May 24, 2015 at 9:28 pm

    >> Marti said…
    >>
    >> I agree, and have said a number of times downstream, that given the futility of what
    >> Granite Mountain was doing (apparently all by themselves–and why, if it was so
    >> important for them to be doing that, why wasn’t Blue Ridge helping them????), all
    >> things considered, and…..
    >>
    >> ….given the increasing severity of the weather forecasts (which, actually, had been
    >> already severe leading up to this Sunday June 30), including the predicted
    >> thunderstorms and their predicted chaotic impact on the fire…….
    >>
    >> …..since what they were doing was not completable and the conditions within which
    >> they were doing that was increasingly dangerous……
    >>
    >> ……they should have been ordered by SOMEONE to disengage and head to a safer
    >> place by 2:00 PM that afternoon, or, if that didn’t happen, to SIT THEMSELVES
    >> DOWN IN THE BLACK AND STAY THERE NO MATTER WHAT.
    >>
    >> The question I have had in my head all weekend as I have been reading what
    >> you and Bob have been writing is…….
    >>
    >> …..if, indeed, what Granite Mountain IHC was doing was because they were “assigned”
    >> to do it (apparently because it was considered to be “important”), why in the world
    >> was Blue Ridge IHC not lifting a finger to help them do that?
    >>
    >> I just don’t get it.

    I thought this could use a quick ’roundup’ and a few quotes from the existing evidence record.

    The truth is… not only did SPGS1 Gary Cordes tell ADOSH he basically had no friggin’ idea who Blue Ridge was actually ‘assigned’ to that day… Gary Cordes told ADOSH that Blue Ridge had, apparently, offered to HELP Granite Mountain with that ‘line work’ up there near the anchor point… but it was DIVSA Eric Marsh himself who turned them down and specifically told them their help ( the BR crew’s help, that is ) was NOT NEEDED.

    Here is where SPGS1 Gary Cordes testified to ADOSH that ‘Division Alpha’ Eric Marsh himself had TOLD Blue Ridge Superintendent Brian Frisby that he (quote) “didn’t need him up there”.

    From Gary Cordes’ ADOSH interview September 11, 2013…
    ——————————————————————————————
    1119 Q2: Blue Ridge was uh, working for Eric?
    1120
    1121 A: Um…
    1122
    1123 Q2: (Unintelligible)?
    1124
    1125 A: …you know, it initially sounded like he was assigned to alpha. Um, Eric told
    1126 him he didn’t need him up there and so Blue Ridge was kinda just, kind of
    1127 um, I guess just, they, they jumped over and started helping me for the most
    1128 part. They weren’t technically assigned to me but they were, they had jumped
    1129 in looking, you know, looking for work, so we identified the need in there to
    1130 improve this dozer line so that was their primary uh, primary goal.
    ———————————————————————————————-

    But let’s ‘back up the bus’ for a moment and do a little ’roundup’ on what evidence we have ( or don’t have ) about whether Blue Ridge was ever actually ASSIGNED to anyone that day or whether they really were just pretty much ‘freelancing’ all day.

    Let’s go back to the ‘horse’s mouth’ here and see if there is any evidence coming from any of the actual Blue Ridge Hotshots if, prior to the ‘Cutover Trail’ desperation effort in the later afternoon… they ( the crew ) had ever been given an actual ASSIGNMENT from any OPS or DIVS level person.

    The answer seems to be NO.

    Until someone can get the Blue Ridge Hotshots back into a room and able to freely answer questions about Yarnell… the only thing we have to go on are their own own heavily redacted Unit Logs, and there is NO EVIDENCE in those Logs that they were ever actually ASSIGNED to anyone in particular or that they ( the crew ) ever had any valid work assignment(s) until that desperation attempt to improve that Cutover Trail over to Shrine Road Youth Camp later in the afternoon.

    From Brian Frisby’s handwritten Unit Log…
    —————————————————————————–
    We arrived on the fire and checked in at 0800 and we were to hang tight for a assignment. At about 0900 we were told to go to the Yarnell Fire department and stage.

    At 1000 Operations called and asked if we could tie in with Structure group Cordes with a ( dozer boss ). We were instructed to go down Manzanita and Lakewood.

    As we got down the road we tied into ( Cordes ) who had the ( dozer ) working in front of him. He informed us that the dozer didn’t have a radio and he would like him to clear out the roads that ran north and south off the main two track.
    —————————————————————————–

    From Blue Ridge Captain Trueheart Brown’s Unit Log…
    —————————————————————————–
    0800 – Blue Ridge IHC arrives at Yarnell hill ICP and checks in and receives radio clone. Crew is told to stand by for an assignment.
    0845 – Blue Ridge IHC instructed to head to Yarnell FD station by incoming ( ?? OPS1 ?? ). We are not given any type of a briefing and we are told that Roy Hall’s state team is taking over the incident.
    0905 – Blue Ridge IHC arrives at Yarnell FD station and stages for an assignment. We are watching fire activity pick up while we are staged, this includes pockets of brush burning very actively. The north end of the fire is beginning to pick up significantly.
    1000 – Blue Ridge IHC is instructed via radio by ( OPS1 Todd Abel ) to tie in with ( SPGS1 Gary Cordes ) off of Lakewood and Manazanita rd. We are to tie in with him and get a DOZB off the crew to relieve him of DOZB duties so that he can return to structure group.
    —————————————————————————–

    So according to BR Captain Brown… the ONLY reason they were given for leaving the Yarnell Fire Station was to go and deliver a DOZB to Gary Cordes so he could get away from the dozer and get out of the boondock and back to town.

    There is NOTHING ELSE in Brown’s Unit Log about being told ( in the 10:00 AM timeframe by OPS1 Abel ) what the rest of the Blue Ridge crew should or shouldn’t be doing. The 10:00 AM call was just all about getting someone DOZB red-carded out there to relieve Gary Cordes.

    From Blue Ridge Hotshot Cory Ball’s Unit Log…
    —————————————————————————–
    0830: arrival at Peoples valley School. Received radio clone. No Briefing.
    Instructed to stage at school.
    0900: Instructed to travel to Yarnell Fire department. Staged at YFD.
    0930: Instructed to tie in with Structure group one. Inquiry about ( ??? ).
    1030: Traveled into Yarnell subdivision staged in meadow near fire
    Granite Mountain ( ??? ) assigned as ( ?????? ).
    Granite Mountain IHC ( GMIHC ) conducting burnout operations along fires
    edge near saddle off of two track road. ( XXXXXXXXXXXXXXX )
    ( XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX )
    Blueridge One requested me plus one to travel to fires edge.
    I was assigned ( HEQB for dozer because ) county employee not IA qualified
    and did not have radio. Gave radio from BRIHC to operator ( ???? ).
    —————————————————————————–

    So that’s pretty much it for the Blue Ridge Unit Logs.

    A LOT of testimony in there about OPS1 Todd Abel calling them at the Yarnell Fire Station circa 10:00 AM and jsut requesting that Cory Ball get delivered out there to relieve Gary Cordes on the dozer… but basically NO TESTIMONY that anyone had any actual ‘assigment’ for the Blue Ridge Crew. They just all ‘relocated’ from th eYFD to the Sesame area of their own accord without actually having any real reason to do that ( at 10:00 AM, anyway ).

    Continued next message…

    • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

      Continued from previous message…

      ** THE MANAGEMENT SIDE ( TESTIMONY )…

      The ‘other side of the coin’ is whether there is any real evidence coming from ‘fire management’ of the Blue Ridge Crew being given any kind of official ‘assignment’ prior to the later afternoon desperation work on the Cutover Trail.

      Again.. the answer seems to be NO.

      Both OPS1 Abel and SPGS1 Cordes acknowledge they contacted Blue Ridge to find a DOZB qualified person to relieve Cordes on the dozer… but there is NO testimony coming from even them. either, about them ever instructing the Blue Ridge Crew to be doing anything until much later in the afternoon.

      From OPS1 Todd Abel’s ADOSH interview on August 22, 2013…
      —————————————————————————-
      894 went down there, uh, after the briefing ran into, um, Blue Ridge out
      895 there, um, and they said hey, what would you like us to do? I said hey, why
      896 don’t you guys go stage at the school. I’m not sure exactly where I wanna put
      897 you guys yet. But I wanted that hotshot crew in my back pocket.
      898
      899 Q1: Right.
      900
      901 A: So we staged them there ( at the Model Creek School ).

      1053 Q1: Okay. So the dozer is, uh – the dozer is Gary’s – Cordes’?
      1054
      1055 A: Yeah, when – when the dozer showed up – it had been ordered the night before
      1056 – when the dozer showed up, um, Gary got a hold of him, ‘cause he knew we
      1057 wanted to start getting some work done as soon as possible. So he started, uh,
      1058 directing them on where to, uh, start doing dozer work. And then we took a,
      1059 uh, heavy equipment boss from Blue Ridge and assigned him to that dozer.
      ——————————————————————————

      That’s pretty much it for OPS1 Todd Abel’s testimony about all this.

      He does NOT specifically mention being the one to call Blue Ridge when they were staged at the Yarnell Fire Station… but he does say “We took an HEQB from Blue Ridge and assigned him to that dozer”.

      The “We” is probably referring to Gary Cordes and Todd Abel.

      It’s pretty obvious from other testimony that Gary Cordes communicated his need to be relieved off the dozer to OPS1 Todd Abel and that is when Abel either knew to call Blue Ridge ( since they would probably have someone HEQB and/or DOZB qualified ) or Abel was TOLD to call Blue Ridge.

      Regardless… Todd Abel said NOTHING about also having any kind of ‘assignment’ for the rest of Blue Ridge. The only reason he called them at 10:00 AM was to tell them to get that DOZB person out to Gary Cordes.

      Somehow… it *appears* as if it was Blue Ridge Supt. Frisby and BR Captain Brown who turned this simple request for a spare DOZB person into a “head ’em up and move ’em out” operation and they then proceeded to relocate ALL of Blue Ridge out there to the Sesame Clearing area where the GM Crew Carriers already were… even though there was no actual ‘assignment’ for the Blue Ridge Crew yet.

      From Gary Cordes’ ADOSH interview September 11, 2013…
      ——————————————————————-
      864 Q2: …okay. I think I have uh, I think I have most of that. Alright. Okay, I’d like
      865 to go on back to, I’m on page two of your uh, activity log and uh, so 8:40,
      866 8:45, you got – the dozer arrives, started on the work after briefing on Sesame
      867 Street, I ordered the dozer boss uh…
      868
      869 A: Stayed with dozer, pushing the line until Ball from Blue Ridge took over as
      870 the dozer boss.
      871
      872 Q2: Okay. And Ball was, what was that next one Ball was what, an operational –
      873 oh, briefed. Ball was briefed on (unintelligible)…
      874
      875 A: Right.
      876
      877 Q2: …uh…
      878
      879 A: And the attempt of what we were doing with the dozer line.
      880
      881 Q2: Well where did you start off, you must’ve started down in the…
      882
      883 A: Right at the, at the ranch at um, at – on Sesame Street, where Sesame first
      884 starts. That’s where we, we just improved that road so we would be able to
      885 bring vehicles in and um, uh, they were to go up where the grater is and then,
      886 and then branch there and then cut across the toe of the hill to that next trail.
      887 We were trying to incorporate those jeep trails if we could.

      794 transcends into 33. Um, basically what the fire had done is it continued to
      795 move throughout the day, move uh, northeast and I guess to go back, you
      796 know, let me go back and readdress the dozer line. We never finished the
      797 dozer line along the toe of the hill because the fire pooched out on the
      798 northeast corner of, of where you’re showing blue and advanced up that, end
      799 of that section four and um, so that took away the ability to use that, that road
      800 and, and tie into where we were gonna tie in. By the time they, they got up in
      801 the place and, and um, I had turned the dozer over to Blue Ridge to finish out
      802 the, the line, um, we couldn’t go north with the line so that created Sesame
      803 Street as our, our contingency line to, to use.
      804
      805 Q2: And you have a recollection of perhaps when that occurred?
      807 A: That was late morning, um, um, sometime after 10:00 or 11:00, somewhere in
      808 that timeframe. It had, it had made enough activity that we, we abandoned uh,
      809 the idea of putting that, that dozer line in on that side, um, it was – the activity
      810 was starting to pick up so I’m guessing 11:00 to – about 11 o’clockish,
      811 somewhere in that timeframe.

      1119 Q2: Blue Ridge was uh, working for Eric?
      1120
      1121 A: Um…
      1122
      1123 Q2: (Unintelligible)?
      1124
      1125 A: …you know, it initially sounded like he was assigned to alpha. Um, Eric told
      1126 him he didn’t need him up there and so Blue Ridge was kinda just, kind of
      1127 um, I guess just, they, they jumped over and started helping me for the most
      1128 part. They weren’t technically assigned to me but they were, they had jumped
      1129 in looking, you know, looking for work, so we identified the need in there to
      1130 improve this dozer line so that was their primary uh, primary goal. My
      1131 understanding was that, maybe it’s just my interpretation, but I, I thought I
      1132 had heard some conversation on the radio at one point uh, where Granite
      1133 Mountain would come in and tie in that uh, western edge of that line and start
      1134 working that back in. Um, that was my general understanding. Whether that
      1135 was a face to face with somebody from Blue Ridge or whether I heard that on
      1136 the radio, but that was my understanding of what the next, next work was
      1137 gonna be done.
      1138
      1139 Q2: Well was tying a, some type of hand line into the dozer line?
      1140
      1141 A: Right…
      1142
      1143 Q2: (Unintelligible)…
      1144
      1145 A: …right.
      1146
      1147 Q2: …down by the grater somewhere?
      1148
      1149 A: Right. Right.
      1150
      1151 Q2: Uh…
      1152
      1153 A: And that was, that was the, you know, you – we plan as we go and as things
      1154 occur through this and, and that was the, the idea then would be in the evening
      1155 we would try to burn that out so the black would be tied into the dozer line on
      1156 the west, we’d improve this dozer line, we’d burn off that dozer line and, and
      1157 bring it all the way around to, into that rock pile. We knew everything was
      1158 burning north of that ridge in there so we weren’t gonna save anything there.
      1159 The whole intent was to try to create some kind of defensibility for the town
      1160 because the town itself had nothing in there to really keep, keep fire out.
      ——————————————————————-

      And once again ( because it’s worth repeating )… here is that same section where SPGS1 Gary Cordes testified to ADOSH that ‘Division Alpha’ Eric Marsh himself had TOLD Blue Ridge Superintendent Brian Frisby that he (quote) “didn’t need him up there”.

      From Gary Cordes’ ADOSH interview September 11, 2013…
      ——————————————————————————————
      1119 Q2: Blue Ridge was uh, working for Eric?
      1120
      1121 A: Um…
      1122
      1123 Q2: (Unintelligible)?
      1124
      1125 A: …you know, it initially sounded like he was assigned to alpha. Um, Eric told
      1126 him he didn’t need him up there and so Blue Ridge was kinda just, kind of
      1127 um, I guess just, they, they jumped over and started helping me for the most
      1128 part. They weren’t technically assigned to me but they were, they had jumped
      1129 in looking, you know, looking for work, so we identified the need in there to
      1130 improve this dozer line so that was their primary uh, primary goal.
      ———————————————————————————————-

      Since Blue Ridge ( the crew ) basically ended up doing NOTHING for most of the day… and the fact that TIME, itself, became the difference between living or dying that day for Granite Mountain… it’s still interesting to speculate how things might have turned out different that day if instead of them just sitting around on their asses by their Crew Carriers in the Sesame Clearing… the Blue Ridge CREW had been allowed to just “join the party” there out at the west end of the two-track and had jumped in to help with that ‘line building’ out there.

      Blue Ridge ( or someone ) probably would have still been needed later for that desperation effort to improve that ‘Cutover Trail’ to the Harper Canyon area… but as far as the situation on the WEST end of the Sesame Trail two-track goes… things might have been much different if they had just simply been ‘pitching in’ with the line building out there where GM was working all day rather than sitting around doing absolutely NOTHING there by their Crew Carriers for most of the day.

      Maybe Brendan McDonough actually knows a little more about why in the world Eric Marsh ( and Jesse Steed? ) would have REFUSED their help that day… and maybe someone will remember to ask Brendan a few more questions about this during his under-oath deposition less than 48 hours from now.

      • Marti Reed says

        Copy. Thank you.

        Good to “know” more about “the reason” Blue Ridge spent the day getting paid for mostly hanging out with their buggies while Granite Mountain spent the day, at least parts of it, hopefully getting paid for putting in a hand line that, all things considered, wasn’t going to be able to have much of an effect on anything, while Cory Ball and that dozer operator (who may or may not have almost gotten himself killed but apparently that didn’t really matter to anybody but us and Calvin) spent the day putting in a dozer line (in, as it appears, preparation for some kind of imagined burnout that evening) that didn’t have any effect on the fire when it (as was consistent with the weather forecast) reversed itself under the effect of a thunderstorm cell and burned over the whatevers they put in place in that big bowl, along with the several thousands of dollars worth of retardant that Bravo 3 put in because they were so concerned that the fire was going to do exactly that, that afternoon, except they didn’t bother to tell anybody about that concern except a “Division Supervisor” who didn’t communicate that to anybody.

        And, yeah, I’ve read what Gary Olson has written.

        And I’ve read what you have written about the conversation on Wildfire Today about what John and Holly have written about someone’s review of Kyle Dickman’s book.

        This all is what makes me more and more inclined to throw my hands up in the air and wonder why I am even “here.”

        If all of this is considered “standard operating procedure,” I’m not sure I have much of anything more to say. Seriously.

        • Gary Olson says

          Marti, you are here because you care and because you are brilliant at what you do, and those are things that I can’t even begin to do. You and I just have some disagreement when it comes to, and I’m paraphrasing here, whether the system needs to be overhauled, broken down and reengineered, or whether the system is functioning about as well as can be expected given the amount of money spent on it. On it’s best day…NIFC is no SOUTHCOM and nothing else in wildland firefighting lines up in any kind of reality with the military. They spent trillions, WFF spends millions.

          I think it says something that everyone including me acknowledges you and WTKTT are both brilliant at identifying variable, factors etc., I just disagree with you and WTKTT sometimes when it comes to concluding what the conclusions should be. So…please hang in there with as much time as you can afford to give away here.

          I appreciate the hard work you do. And I have conceded many times that I don’t know either, we aren’t getting much help from those who could give us help if they wanted to. So…

          • Gary Olson says

            And I’m just going to throw out a couple of things here off the top of my head. And that is as a result of the Yarnell Hill Fire…the general public became aware of two things almost simultaneously, there is a complex wildland firefighting apparatus they pay for…and that system fails to function as well as people assumes it would.

            For example…there have been a number of comments made here that the GMIHC failed to meet the hotshot hype and were hardly the elite cream of the crop…best of the best blah, blah, blah.

            That’s just one of the dirty little secrets most people didn’t and still don’t know about the WFF apparatus…yes, the GMIHC WERE the elite crème of the crop, best of the best because that hyperbole is all RELATIVE, they were graded on a Bell Curve, not whatever is not a bell curve. In other words, if you think they had issues…you should check out their competition.

            You think some aspects are bad now? Let me give you some historical perspective. Hotshot crew bosses are GS-9’s today, with a staff of 6 full time employees as a minimum.

            When I started as a hotshot crew boss, the highest a hotshot crew bosses could be was a GS-7 and it was common to have no one else who was in a career status with year round employment or any benefits, retention was a real challenge…all of the time. That’s how I got in, everybody else around me kept quitting to go get a “real” jobs.

            • Gary Olson says

              In fact Marti…I will take it one step further as long as I am sharing and bring you up to speed on one of the hardest parts of my job as a hotshot crew boss. I was the door keeper for a revolving door.

              My squad bosses and senior crewmen…my friends, comrades and peer group came and went out the door to other fire jobs into engines, helicopters, fuels tech, forestry jobs with the USFS and other land management agencies.

              A hotshot job was a stepping stone on to bigger and better things back in the good ole days and most people didn’t stay for very long. And as you can imagine, this revolving door led in turn to a lot of problems when it came to professionalizing hotshot crews.

              You have probably (at least I would hope you have, how could you not have looked at my magnificent work) looked at my video

              https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UlnmLnoXENE.

              Anyway…watch it closely and you will see us using contract yellow school buses which led up to us using an open bed cattle truck one year because the USFS couldn’t reach an agreement over the cost of the school buses. This in turn led to us getting our own green school buses, but they were still school busses, not the crew carriers they use today…which are really, really bitchin’!

              At almost every aspect of how hotshot crews are run these days I exclaim…WOW, THOSE GUYS ARE REALLY LUCKY! A chase truck…dream on…an ATV dream on…tents to sleep in…dream on…toilet paper on the fire line…no way, we used sticks, rough and dry sticks that still the bark on them.

              In other words, things are really professional now compared to how it used to be, which of course really, really, really, begs the question, then what went so very wrong in such a big way on the Yarnell Hill Fire…smart guy? And I have to admit…you got me there.

              • Bob Powers says

                One step further.
                The FS created a fire God Job or what ever. If you were ready to move up the Fire ladder the best place to move to was a HOT SHOT CREW.

                GS 5,6,7–From there with that background of 2 to 4 years you were in a position to promote to the Districts any where as GS 7 or 9 and many carriers were enhanced by the Crew positions.
                People were given jobs biased on that back ground.
                Both of my GS7 and 9 positions were because of the Hot Shots.

                What Gary is saying is many good solid Fire fighters went thru the system and moved on few stayed a Hot shot Superintendent there full carrier. That in some cases created a lack of experience in the position as non Hot Shots began to fill Supervisory positions and no longer worked up thru the crew. New crews were formed with out the history or back ground of Hot Shot training.

                Having a stepping stone of positions today keeps the crews more in tact. GS 5-6-7-9 The 9’s then can move to Management level positions GS-11 and Possibly further.

                Dose the system weed out the week???? Maybe

                A lot of crews today run in a lot of different ways some good some not so good.

                I think that is what Gary was saying—

                • Gary Olson says

                  Yes, that is what I am saying and I am trying to get people to understand that they system is a lot stronger and better than used to be and justify to them (and myself) why I am defending a system that failed so badly by saying, “Hey…it used to be a lot worse, so don’t worry, that means it’s OK now.”

                  Or maybe “Hey…things could have been worse on the Yarnell Hill Fire….a lot more than 19 people could have died, so that means everything turned out as well as could be expected?”

                  Actually Bob….some days I don’t know what I’m trying to say because this event was so bad and so unprecedented and just so damn tragic.

                  • Marti Reed says

                    So……I’ve picked up a whisper that you have moved from Flagstaff to Washington.

                    Which would make it impossible for me to get me and my daughter to make a trip with me to Flagstaff to visit her dad and visit you. (Well I can visit her dad, but not you. Which is what I REALLY want to do. I could really care less about visiting her dad.)

                    Which would make it impossible for you and I to sit down together in some location in Flagstaff and have a true in-real-live conversation/argument about all of this for a couple of hours or so about all of this — which is what it deserves.

                    Have you REALLY moved to Washington?

                    {just asking for a friend, as they say….)

                    • Gary Olson says

                      Well…I am in the process of it, I made a comment back a little ways that said if my dear wife say’s it’s Easter…well you know the rest.

                    • Gary Olson says

                      yes, and discussing things in this format loses so much so getting together sometime would certainly be best.

  30. Gary Olson says

    Hello Everyone,

    (Note: My comment was to long so I broke it into two parts….Part 1)

    As some of you might have suspected, I did not go away for good, I just went away. I have just concluded a refreshing road trip on which I consumed way too much fossil fuel as I left way too big of a carbon foot print while driving thousands of miles in my Mongo (Blazing Saddles) van, mostly because I can.

    Although in my defense, I did some important things while on the road at various destinations. I am going to start listening to Al Gore and others like him on ways I can save the planet when they stop flying in really big and expensive planes that really use a lot of fossil fuel while going to conferences where they all agree how I should live. I personally think they should all use teleconferencing instead of flying to Geneva, Switzerland to meet in person.

    I have never understood how the far right can pillory Al Gore so savagely since he literally could have been the poster child for one of the greatest anti war anthems of the 60’s, “Fortunate Son” by Credence Clearwater Revival. You can probably guess I have been listening to my IPod playlist while on my not so little journey. And instead he volunteered to serve as a combat army infantry officer who ran the risk of not only being killed by the enemy, but being fragged by his own men. Normally his people liked to send my people and people of color to those kinds of places instead of their own sons and daughters.

    I have been checking in on the thread as conditions permit and following some of the discussions about KD’s book, I am not going to buy it, nor am I going to ask any questions, but I will read all of the analysis of it others are willing to do with great interest. I am also jotted down notes on my trip because I am preparing my mother of all posts (MOAP) that I hope to finish now that I am finally home.

    In my MOAP, I still fully intend to summarize everything I have picked up in side conversations or emails so you don’t have to wait for my book to come out to find out everything I think about where we are at in this investigation…as I know so many of you do. You see…I just can’t write with the appropriate gravitas this topic calls for, I know that Sonny and Joy get me and my quirky sense of humor and way of writing, even if so many of YOU PEOPLE do not.

    Now take the you people comment for example, WTKTT seemed to take great offense to my use of that term, but I did not intend to offend anyone. It was an oblique reference to one of my most favorite satire movies of all time that I watch again every couple of years…”Tropic Thunder.”

    I really enjoy watching quirky movies and especially everything that has ever been done by the Coen Brothers and I drive people around me crazy by intermixing movie quotes from a lot of movies, but especially their movies with everyday conversation and then I will say, “Do you know which movie that came from?” Now…I suspect that either WTKTT did not see “Tropic Thunder” or he didn’t think it was funny. WTKTT seems to always be able to write about this very serious topic with the appropriate amount of gravitas.

    I really wish this thread had a reset button on it and I could make every post I have ever made disappear and a neuralizer (Men In Black) to make all of you forget I was ever here…but it doesn’t and I don’t. So I am going to try to clean up some of the mess I made by not explaining myself well enough. The biggest misconception that I am afraid I am responsible for is the recurring theme about hotshot being mindless robots and that one really bothers me. So that is the first one I am going to try my best to fix.

    I like fire stories. I have spent countless hours on mop up and at bars both listening to, and telling fire stories about the last fire, the next fire or some other fire. Fire stories are what binds wildland firefighter together and they are how the present connects with both the past and the future. Fire stories are how wildland firefighters pass on the mores of their social group and culture. And so I am going to try to tell a few fire stories while I try to clean up my mess in the hope that using some actual examples will help you people understand what I am trying to say. If this one goes well…I have few others lined up.

    Listening to fire stories from those who had gone before me was how I learned what was expected of me, telling fire stories was how I told those who came after me what was to be expected of them. And as you know, I am fond of saying chaos is usually in charge of most true wildfires for the first 36 to 48 hours? And as a matter of fact sometimes chaos never lets go of control of the wildfire and some fires are managed by chaos until the bitter end. The Clint’s Fire on the Long Valley Ranger District on the Coconino National Forest is an example of one such fire.

    The “mindless robots” quote that so many of you people default to when you try to translate what I have said into language that you understand, I find…priceless. I never said hotshots were mindless anything. And as I said, maybe nobody should listen to anything I have to say on this subject. My last experience with a hotshot crew was in 1984. All of my experiences with hotshot crews were with Coconino National Forest hotshot crews (including the Santa Fe Hotshot Crew I built in the same image) that operated during the Bill Buck Era. FYI…Bill Buck who was the most feared and respected fire god who ever walked on the face of the earth who was hated by those who did not understand him and loved by those who did. Buck was also the Fire Management Officer on the Coconino National Forest who created his hotshots in his image.

    And as I have said many times, we were a hyper hotshot program on steroids, but I think most, if not all hotshot crews are, they almost have to be to do such a difficult job for so few benefits and relative low pay unless you are working overtime with hazard pay at nighttime on the weekend during a federal holiday, and then the pay is okay…if you work a lot of hours. Hotshots really have to develop an alternative universe to live in during the fire season with kind of a reverse pride at being grunts and ground pounders so that you are conditioned to say, “We like it, we love it, we want more of it” no matter how bad it gets along with the standard reply…”Sounds Good” no matter how bad it really sounds and the age old, “Thank you Sir…may I another?” But that is really hard to explain to you people.

    So my experiences might not have anything to do with the Granite Mountain Hotshots or any other hotshot crew for that matter? And it IS disturbing to me that they were mouthing off behind their crew boss’ back while he was discussing their options with Jesse Steed and maybe to his face if Steed had the transmit button pushed down at the time. Maybe the Granite Mountain Hotshots were so different from other crews, or at least crews I know that they were a democratically based gaggle of free thinkers and not a disciplined hotshot crew who trusted and believed in their crew leadership…I don’t know? I still don’t know why they went down that chute towards the fire below.

    I always worked with people who were better than me at every job I ever did, and that certainly included being a hotshot. I was even an accidental hotshot. I was actually hired by the Coconino to be a Fire Prevention Technician because that is what I had been on the Prescott, but I went out early in the season as a fill in with the Happy Jack Hotshots because they were short to the Clint’s Fire that was blowing out at 360 degrees and I experienced the first real adrenaline dump in my life. I was immediately hooked. Some people can try meth several times and never get hooked, and some people just do it once and WHAM…they’re addicts for life. It only took once for me and I instantly became an adrenaline junky.

    On that particular fire, there weren’t any mindless robots or they would have been in serious trouble! Well anyway, on this particular fire, the crew was instantly fragmented and was never able to regroup into any kind of cohesive unit. They say a battle plan never survives first contact with the enemy. A single hotshot crew became several smaller hotshot modules because Chaos became the Incident Commander just as soon as we stepped off the crew carrier, each one with its own leader and followers, which ebbed and flowed and constantly changed as the circumstances and what was directly in front of them changed. So the point is, everyone there except for me, was an expert wildland firefighter, not a mindless robot who were able to step up and assume the role as leader or follower depending on their individual circumstances and we eventually caught the fire… when the wind stopped blowing.

    Which brings up another point, wildland firefighters usually don’t ever really catch a true wildfire until the variables influencing that wildfire change. The wind dies down, the relative humidity goes up, the temperature comes down, the slope flattens out, the canyon ends, there is a break in the fuel either horizontally or vertically (maybe in part by a fire line), the fuel load is dramatically reduced, the fuel moisture content or type changes, and so forth and so on, or if you get lucky because sometimes it is better for wildland firefighters to be lucky than good.

    The sum of a hotshot crew is always greater than the sum of its individual parts, which is why the concept works.

    And as Marti described it, “But to, as you describe, totally denigrate the thoughts/perspectives/wisdom/experience of members of a crew and their hard-earned experience-based wisdom and disregard it because that’s how the system works??????”

    Yes, that is how the system works. Because as a crew is forming at the beginning of each fire season, and even if the crew consists of mostly returning veterans, that crew develops its own personality as it jells into a cohesive unit not unlike a fine Swiss watch.

    OK…that may be a slight exaggeration but I think you get the idea. A watch only works if all of the parts of it are working together to accomplish the same goal…to tell what time it is. And if all of the cogs, wheels, springs, and whatever else is in a watch are busy being individuals the watch isn’t going to be able to give very accurate times…right?

    In other words, if all of the parts are all trying to be unique individuals who are unable to subjugate their own individual personalities and desires to unite behind the most experienced and capable leaders to achieve a group identity with common goals and objectives while at the same time maintaining their own individual identities and capabilities who are able to step forward at a moment’s notice and accept a key role and perform at an optimum level, well then…the sum of the crew will not be greater than the sum of its individual parts…will it? That was a tough sentence to get through and I hope you didn’t get as lost as I did.

    Wildand firefighting agencies are looking for the best candidates they can find (given what the job offers in return) to fill their hotshot crews and some of the best people are the ones who do not need to be recognized for their own individual strengths and are happy to be contributing to the strength of the unit as a whole.

    • Gary Olson says

      (Note: My comment was to long so I broke it into two parts….Part 2)

      Marti went on to say,

      “If that is how “the system” works, and I appreciate your candidness regarding this, I truly believe there is a SERIOUS problem with “the system.”

      And if that “how the system works” process is, probably, related to what happened on June 30, 2013, leading to the deaths of so many of these awesome wildland Hotshots fire-fighters,
      I think “we” REALLY REALLY REALLY need to challenge that System.”

      To which I say, No… I don’t think we need to change the system, we just need to change the way you people view the system. The system works pretty good. Do you find it at all ironic that before the Yarnell Hill Fire, most of you had never even heard of a hotshot crew…and now most of you think you know the best way to run a hotshot crew. Please do not take offense at that comment, it sounds harsher than I mean it to, I just couldn’t think of a gentler way to say it.

      As I always say, since the inception of hotshot crews in the 1940’s, there have only been four disaster fires on which hotshots were killed. The first three on which 24 hotshots died, 24 of whom were cutting fire line above the uncontrolled wildfire. I still don’t know exactly what happened on the last one that almost doubled the number of hotshot deaths in a single incident at a time when wildland firefighters had been figuring out how the whole wildfire thing interacts within the laws of nature while they developed numerous check lists and safety protocols pretty much starting with the “REPORT OF THE FIRE SAFETY REVIEW TEAM, MARCH 1967, A PLAN TO FURTHER REDUCE THE CHANCES OF MEN BEING BURNED WHILE FIGHTING FIRES.” BUT…I now think I have a pretty darn good idea.

      I read some guys review on KD’s book. He said he wouldn’t read it because it was written by a hotshot about hotshots for hotshots and he said something about how he had never wanted to associate himself with young men who wanted to prove how macho they were in a militaristic culture with hazing.

      Yaa…him and me both after my first couple of weeks on the crew, I got my head humped so many times I had several bald spots running at different angles on my poor head. It didn’t take me very long after I first reported for work at Happy Jack to figure out I had stumbled into an environment that was exactly what I imagined it would be like if Animal House met The Lord Of The Flies at a Special Forces, Forward Operating Base. Those Happy Jack Hotshots my first season were definitely off the reservation and none of them showed any interest in returning to any kind of normal life time soon at the time, but I needed the job and I didn’t have anywhere else to go because I had already been kicked out of my college dorm room.

      Now I want to go over the Easter egg hunt again, since that analogy caused some confusion. After all, I am the guy who went from being a GS-5 Recreation Technician in 1984, whose primary job it was to clean out campground outhouses and take shit from everybody to being the guy who now only has to care what one person thinks…my dear wife. That occurred after the USFS tried to fire me because I could no longer fight fire because of smoke inhalation damage to my lungs and larynx. I filed a grievance and when I won, so they put me in charge of cleaning out the outhouses in campgrounds. The perch they built for me to preen myself on as a hotshot crew boss was very fine indeed, they just didn’t tell me the fall off it would be so precipitous and so far to the bottom when my time came to an end.

      And that is because of how the laws work in this country work. You see, it’s like this…she controls all of her salary (I don’t think I could ever convince a judge to make her give me spousal support) and at least 50% of mine since we were married before I got a permanent job with benefits with the USFS and in fact, she actually predates the USFS in my life, bless her heart and I went to work for them when I was 19. And since she actually earns a lot more than I do these days, that means she controls more than 85% of our combined income and I control the remainder. So…when she announces in a loud voice that it’s Easter…I start to immediately look for Easter eggs.

      That’s how it works in this life. Somebody almost always has the power to tell you when it’s time for you to start looking for Easter eggs. It’s just that now I have earned the right to literally tell everyone else to leave me alone. Now I know some of you must be wondering, “What kind of woman would spend almost all of a lifetime with a hotshot?” Much less somebody like me? Good question.

      I have been asking myself that for a very long time and I haven’t figured it out yet, so if you do…please let me know. I can tell you though that she has spent the majority of our time together as a critical care registered nurse who has worked primarily in intensive care and cardiac care units, although now she tries to help difficult people who have suffered traumatic brain injuries…so that may give you a clue. I think I might be an actual living case study for her.

      Anyway…back to the Easter egg analogy. You see…I figured that out a long time ago that somebody always had the power to tell you when it’s time for you to start looking for Easter eggs…NOW. And I have always been good with that. That is one reason I made a good hotshot…not a great hotshot, but a pretty good one. For all of you people out there who have neither understood that concept or accepted that fact, well…you probably haven’t done very well and it is unlikely it is going to get any better for you. Unless of course you are somebody like Lebron James or Steve Jobs or you at least have the potential to be like them…and that is highly unlikely to be the case for most of you.

      But the primary moral to this story is…hotshots are not mindless robots and they have never been mindless robots. And if any are, they probably won’t survive a serious encounter with an unforgiving enemy who shows no compassion or remorse and often doesn’t give second chances to get it right.

      • The Truth Will Always Remain Elusive says

        I will always believe that as the crew stood at the top of the bowl contemplating their descent. at least one of them, and probably even several of them, or even more, had alarm bells clanging loudly in their minds caused by thoughts of the 10 & 18 violations about to occur.

        Perhaps, even more so, some of the rookies, who had just had this information pounded into their heads over and over in classes at the beginning of the season.

        In the case of those folks, some of the one’s whose radar might have been at the highest alert level, might have felt like they shouldn’t or couldn’t voice their concerns as rookies.

        • Gary Olson says

          It has been my opinion ever since I watched the fade video made by WTKTT, that it would have been impossible for anyone who stood at that drop off point looking down into that boiling cauldron not to have fear coursing through their bodies. I am not talking about concern, or any of those kinds of descriptive words…I am talking about pure unadulterated fear.

          I have been told on several occasions from a squad boss who used to work with me, and who never questioned anything I ever asked him to do, that if I would have told him to go down into that chute he would have said something to the effect of…”hey, I love you man, but if you think I am going down there, you need to rethink your position.” And of course, his assessment is based on the empirical and incontrovertible evidence that is clear for everyone to see and evaluate in WTKTT’s video.

          Stunning…absolutely stunning. But yes, thank you for throwing me that softball so I could say this and thank you for your concurrence. I agree with you. There must have been a lot of terrified hotshots that day looking down into that valley.

          • SR says

            That was more or less Dudley’s view from the video — that he at least hoped some had second thoughts. For the rookies, people don’t necessarily do a great job translating book learning when faced with 1) stress, and 2) directions from group leaders. So, there were several heuristics working against the more junior crew members really having too many second thoughts. Along with better rate of travel info for specific types of vegetation, these events do in my mind suggest the need for more controlled decisionmaking experiments. Though, the point that there in fact haven’t been that many accidents may mean that overall there is no particular crisis.

            • Gary Olson says

              Yes, those are some of the reasons that I am having a really hard time blaming the crew itself for not speaking up, in fact I am having a hard time assigning blame in my own mind below Steed.

  31. Bob Powers says

    Anyone interested on Wild Fire Today has an article on the Dickman book review kind of interesting.

    • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

      What is truly weird about what just showed up on Gabbert’s ‘Wildfire Today’ BLOG is that his posting is just a reprint of something that John MacLean and Holly Neill wrote regarding how wrong just one particular REVIEW of Dickman’s book is/was.

      Neither Gabbert, MacLean or Neill mention one word about all the ERRORS that are in Kyle Dickman’s own book, as published.

      What they are going on about ( and what they wrote the article about ) is how many ERRORS there were in some other person’s simple REVIEW of the Dickman work.

      Granted, if Dickman and Neill are right about the things said the book review… then those those things ARE, in fact, “off the reservation” and need to be corrected. You have to wonder how in the hell even the reviewer could have been that wrong about anything Dickman had to say.

      But there is still no mention on MacLean or Neill’s part ( or Gabbert, either ) of how far off-base Kyle Dickman himself was.

      If MacLean and Neill actually think the Dickman book itself IS ‘totally accurate’… then that doesn’t bode well for anything they might be thinking about publishing themselves.

      It would mean they are just as clueless as Dickman is/was about some of the events of the weekend of June 28 through June 30, 2013.

      Here is what just appeared today over at Wildfire Today.

      Wildfire Today
      Article Title: Errors in a review of a book about the Yarnell Hill Fire
      Posted on May 25, 2015 by Bill Gabbert
      http://wildfiretoday.com/2015/05/25/errors-in-a-review-of-a-book-about-the-yarnell-hill-fire/

      ——————————————————-
      By John Maclean and Holly Neill

      Kyle Dickman’s new book, On the Burning Edge, about hotshot culture and the Yarnell Hill Fire, has been reviewed in the Saturday, May 23, edition of the Wall Street Journal by Mark Yost, who is identified as a firefighter and paramedic from Highwood, Illinois. The review makes a number of errors and misleading assertions about fire policy and the Yarnell Hill Fire independent of the material in Dickman’s book. Journal reviews receive respectful attention, but the review i