Please begin Chapter XIII here:
Chapter I, Chapter II, Chapter II supplement, Chapter III, Chapter IV, Chapter V, Chapter VI, Chapter VII, Chapter VIII , Chapter IX, Chapter X, Chapter XI and Chapter XII.
© Copyright 2015 John Dougherty, All rights Reserved. Written For: Investigative MEDIA
Please begin Chapter XIV that is now available on the site. Thanks everyone!
Thank you, John.
And here is a direct ‘clickable’ link to the new “Chapter XIV” ( Chapter Fourteen ) of
this ongoing discussion…
http://www.investigativemedia.com/yarnell-hill-fire-chapter-xiv/
Well…it seems I owe Brendan an apology.
“I’m sorry for every thing I have said about you up until now Brendan, we can all learn something from how clever you are, at least I know I can.”
You have played everybody for a fool and now you will get the last laugh on your way to the bank. Isn’t America Great?
Oh, and one more thing. I’m not going to buy any of the books, I am going to wait for the movie to come out. I bet there won’t be a dry eye in the house. I thought the movie about the Maersk Alabama was pretty good, although I did wait for it to come out on DVD. But I won’t do the same for the movie about the Yarnell HIll Fire, I will pay full ticket price with surround sound!
P.S. Marti…you could have written a book, but you can’t sell something you have demonstrated you are willing to give away for free. How much do you want to bet this thread is being used for research by any number of people writing books about the Yarnell Hill Fire and the day the Lone Survivor fought his way through the flames and lived to tell the tale…for a price?
P.S. WTKTT…if the Administrative Law Judge who is hearing this case had any stones, we would have already heard Brendan’s story by now…so don’t hold breath waiting for him to compel Brendan to talk.
Now that’s what I call a tight Brotherhood!
Well… I’m not sure about Judge Michael A. Mosesso. There’s really no telling what a Judge might do once he comes to realize that there’s a good chance the key witness in a case he/she happens to be presiding over is basically just jerking EVERBODY off. Some Judges don’t take kindly to that. We shall see.
As for the’book deal’… your instincts above are spot on. It’s pretty much a given, already, that this is just as much a MOVIE deal as it is a BOOK deal.
That’s how this Steve Fisher ( Brendan’s Beverly Hills agent ) guy operates. He doesn’t even DO deals unless there’s a screenplay and a movie looming ‘on the horizon’.
Ditto for this Stephan Talty ‘ghost writer’.
Ever since he coauthored the ‘Captain Philips’ book and got a taste of the kind of money that shows up when there’s also the chance of a movie deal… those are the projects HE has been focusing on.
One of the troubling aspects of both Fisher and Talty’s involvement is that neither one is dedicated to the TRUTH nearly as much as they are dedicated to just having a successful return on whatever they get involved with.
These guys are NOT biographers or interested in doing a documentary.
They are in the MOVIE business.
I hope you are right about the Judge. I always expect the worst, that way I am never disappointed and sometimes I am pleasantly surprised.
And I love a good ole God, Guts and Glory movie as much as the next guy. Like I said a long time ago, America needs and loves our heroes, that’s one big reason we make so many of them.
**
** NEW AZCENTRAL EDITORIAL DEMANDS THAT BRENDAN MCDONOUGH TESTIFY
This was just published a few hours ago at AZCENTRAL…
TO BRENDAN MCDONOUGH: Well enough to help write a book? Then TESTIFY!
Published by: Editorial board, The Arizona Republic, 6:09 p.m. MST April 22, 2015
From the article….
———————————————————————————–
Could the story of Brendan McDonough get any stranger?
Perhaps we’ll find out when we read the book he’s writing.
Our View: If the surviving hotshot heard something important, then he should testify under oath — not sell the info for $22 plus tax.
If McDonough is well enough to cooperate in writing a book, he is well enough to show up for a deposition.
———————————————————————————–
I also didn’t want to leave this ‘question’ from the AZCENTRAL Editorial Board hanging…
Q: Could the story of Brendan McDonough get any stranger?
A: You damn betcha. I don’t think this ‘Brendan’ guy has even scratched the surface of ‘the crazy town’ that he’s able to come up with if he tries even just a little harder.
In some ways… the “Brendan Show” might just be getting started, here.
Awhile back, someone requested some good video footage of wildland fire burning around a Safety Zone. Here is a link for the August 11, 204 Beaver Fire Entrapment Facilitated Learning Analysis (FLA). There is another link embedded in the FLA for the YouTube video footage of the event. This occurred on the Klamath National Forest in Northern California. This was a very interesting event with a good outcome and many lessons to be learned. Both reading the report and watching the video will benefit and educate you.
http://www.nifc.gov/wfstar/modules/summary/2014season/Beaver_Fire_Entrapment_FLA.pdf
I realize that you all are onto other subjects now but just wanted to close a loop here.
Go to the center of page 13 for the video clip and several fire progression photos.
Very well laid out package had enough area to survive in also open timber.
surprised the cat and truck weren’t both together.
Once the main fire started indrafting from the landing to the fire, I would have been tempted to run a drip torch around the edge of the bare dirt/fuel area. Add a bit more burned fuels versus unburned.
But that’s just me..
ME TOO looks like there was good ground fuel to work with.
**
** PRESCOTT DAILY COURIER ARTICLES ABOUT RECENT DEVELOPMENTS – NOT!
I was going to post some links to the Prescott Daily Courier articles regarding any number of recent important developments in the Yarnell / Granite Mountain story such as…
1) Arizona Forestry Lawyers ask for ANOTHER 30 days to settle ‘wrongful death’ lawsuits.
2) “Arizona Forestry vs. ADOSH” mediation has totally FAILED and ‘calendar’ is active again.
3) At right around the same time Brendan McDonough’s therapist and lawyer were cancelling his already-scheduled February 26, 2015 deposition because they say it would have been ‘not good’ for Brendan to talk about what he knows’… we learn that Brendan was signing a “tell-all” BOOK DEAL with a famous author in a ‘deal’ arranged by his California ‘agent’.
Practically no other paper has been covering these kinds of ‘stories’ as closely as the Prescott Daily Courier nor is there probably another media outlet which has a ‘readership’ with as much of an ‘interest’ in all these stories…
…but all of sudden it is like the Prescott Daily Courier has decided to STOP covering this story.
There are NO links I can give you to ANY Prescott Daily Courier articles about any of the above ‘new’ developments which are being widely covered by MANY other Arizona ( and National ) NEWS outlets.
The last ‘breaking news’ that the Prescott Daily Courier seemed to cover was when they immediately followed AZCENTRAL’s breaking news story about Brendan McDonough inquiring about the possibilities of him getting a ‘medical disability’ pension via City of Prescott.
They were ‘right there’ with their own version of that ‘story’ within HOURS… but since then… it’s like the PDC has decided to ‘lay off’ the Yarnell/GM/McDonough reporting altogether.
I’ve never seen them NOT covering these important ‘breaking stories’ for their readership the way the are NOT covering them at this particular moment in time.
So I don’t know what that means.
It’s just an OBSERVATION.
But… that being said… am I the only one who is actually still looking SIDEWAYS at ALL of this ‘news’ that has been ‘popping’ lately… and how suddenly AZCENTRAL seems to be taking a leading role in ‘breaking’ all this GM/McDonough related news?…
…AND the fact that all this stuff is ‘popping’ right here at the END of that 30 day ‘negotiation’ period between ‘Arizona Forestry’ lawyers and the ‘wrongful death’ platintiffs?
…AND the fact that the RESULT of that 30 day ‘negotiation’ is that Arizona Forestry says they now want ANOTHER 30 days to try and ‘settle’ with the Hotshot’s families?
Settle WHAT?
What will take ANOTHER 30 days that couldn’t be accomplished in the LAST 30 days?
Does anyone else think this SUDDEN announcement that Brendan does plan to ( and may have already done so ) “TELL ALL” about what he knows just might have something to do with trying to ‘satisfy’ some very angry and determined ‘wrongful death’ lawsuit plaintiffs?
Just like the ‘new fire shelter’ announcements suddenly ‘popping’ out of nowhere in the middle of this last 30 day negotiating period… could ‘Arizona Forestry’ actually trying to be showing the families that Brendan really is going to “tell the truth” at some point… like they want him to?
If the ‘book deal’ announcements we saw ‘popping’ today really do have ANYTHING to do with trying to influence the negotiations with the ‘wrongful death’ plaintiffs I hope they stick to their guns.
I hope they look the ‘Arizona Forestry’ attorneys in the eye from across the table and say “Brendan is free to make any private, commercial deals he wants with anyone he wants… WE still need him to testify UNDER-OATH and under PENALTY-OF-PERJURY about what is now PERFECTLY obvious he has known all along but was CHOOSING to withhold from all investigators.”
There is just simply a part of me that is still VERY suspicious about what’s been happening lately, given where the ‘negotiations’ actually are for the critical ‘wrongful death’ lawsuits.
From the moment Prescott City Attorney Jon Paladini suddenly ( and inexplicably ) decided to “spill his guts” about the Willis/McDonough meetings and conversations… right on through McDonough’s own agent suddenly ( and inexplicably ) deciding it is AOK to ‘spill HIS guts’ about Brendan’s months-old book deal…
…something isn’t passing the “smell test” here.
– City Attorney Jon Paladini did NOT have to say one word about anything…
– But he DID.
– Someone in Prescott City Human Resources ( Melissa Fousek? ) did NOT have to say anything about Brendan doing nothing but just inquiring about a ‘medical disability pension’…
– But he/she DID.
– McDonough’s agent did NOT have to say anything about any ‘book deal’…
– But he DID.
All of a sudden… a lot of people ( all at once ) are all seeming to decide ( all at once ) that it is now AOK to be ‘spilling their guts’ and ‘talking’ about these things… and things some of them have known for quite some time now.
WHY?
WHY is it OK to be talking now ‘all of a sudden’?
What are we (still) missing here?
As I said when the revelation broke a lot more information was sure to follow.
A member of the families told me two things one they will not settle with out the whole story.
Two they have more information not released about the same stuff that Brendon stated
and more. They can not discuss at this time but there Lawyer is prepared to go forward in the Lawsuit to uncover all the facts.
So I am still betting there is still a lot more still to come as this story unfolds and opens up.
PANDORAS BOX has been opened what will fall out next? Other witnesses with supporting evidence? That mysterious copy of the argument that has not surfaced yet that I was told about last Fall. Stuff we have not herd about yet that are under raps.
I think the pressure is building to a big explosion and the book deal added to it.
We have got a lot of information in the past 30 days compared to the past year.
Our Patience may be starting to pay off in the final story breaking soon. I do not doubt that the news media is out there looking for and digging now for information to break news stories before some one else beats them to it.
Reply to Bob Powers post on April 22, 2015 at 7:37 am
>> Bob Powers said…
>>
>> A member of the families told me two things…
>> one they will not settle with out the whole story.
That’s good. They shouldn’t.
But I hope they also realize that the smiling ‘lawyers’ on the other side of the table from them aren’t even near done ‘playing games’ yet.
Just having a ‘story’ that SHOULD have been told from day one suddenly ’emerge’ does NOT automatically mean anyone is finally getting the “truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth”.
If these Arizona Forestry lawyers are, in any way, turning to the families and saying “See.. Brendan’s gonna do a book. He’s gonna ‘tell all’ in the book… so whadda ya want from us?”… I hope the plaintiff’s maintain their mirrored smiles right back at them and say “…Sworn depositions. Under oath. Under penalty of perjury. ASAP. Make it happen.”.
>> Bob Powers also said…
>>
>> Two they have more information not released about the same
>> stuff that Brendon stated and more. They can not discuss at this
>> time but there Lawyer is prepared to go forward in the Lawsuit
>> to uncover all the facts.
Also good. No way they should even consider any ‘offers’ ( which are probably being made ) that suggest whatever evidence THEY have should ‘never see the light of day’ as a condition of any settlement.
WTKTT,
Paladini’s revelations are likely due to the City’s desire to be thrown clear of the slow-motion train wreck which is now occurring (so as to not be accused of having ‘hidden or covered anything up’). It’s also possible they were aware of more of the on-going situation (book deals, etc,) than we think they were.
I believe that the publisher’s motivation for disclosure at this time was, as I have stated previously, their desire to create an early buzz for the project, which I’m sure they try and do for all such projects. With McDonough apparently having been mum on a lot of different things with a lot of different people, it’s entirely possible that the person releasing the information for the publisher wasn’t aware of all of the legal machinations at work, and the subsequent fallout that would occur. Oops.
As for the Daily Courier, you’re giving them too much credit for a news organization. They do an awful lot of regurgitating of other entities stories, along with printing many PR releases verbatim. The reporting staff operates on a shoestring budget while under a tight reign from the editorial staff. While they SHOULD BE the lead news source for stories related to YH, these stories will continue to be broken by Investigative Media, The Arizona Republic, and the Phoenix New Times due to the reasons mentioned above. The DC will continue to gather the scraps and re-work other’s revelations as they have alway done. So, don’t hold your breath on the DC aspect.
TTWARE… thank you. Good observations and I think you are probably right on all counts.
As for the PDC thing… Yes… it’s mostly just ‘ambulance chasing’ journalism on their part but so far… they HAVE managed to stay at least a car length or two behind the news leaders on these Yarnell/GM/McDonough stories.
THIS time… they aren’t even trying to ‘catch up’ and it’s odd that even they have no ‘followup’ now to some of these stories that feature Prescott officials.
Maybe Joanna Dodder Nellans and Cindy Barks are both ‘on vacation’ at the same time… or something… ( or maybe they are purposely deciding not to contribute to these latest stories about their own hometown and officials in it ).
And speaking about books. I found something this past weekend that I was going to post, but I had to do other things and forgot.
Kyle Dickman is publishing a book about the Yarnell Fire. It’s called:
“On the Burning Edge: A Fateful Fire and the Men Who Fought It ”
http://www.amazon.com/On-Burning-Edge-Fateful-Fought/dp/0553392123
It will be released on May 12, 2015.
This Amazon page contains its first chapter. I haven’t read it yet.
Oh, and speaking, again, about BOOKS.
Looks like Fernanda Santos, is working on a book, too!!!
Looking Ahead: Wildfire Season 2015
http://uanews.org/calendar/59121-looking-ahead-wildfire-season-2015
“Join University of Arizona School of Journalism friends, faculty, students and alumni for a special evening in Phoenix spotlighting our science journalism program. It’s an opportunity for Valley friends and alumni to connect, stay up to date on the great things happening in the school, and listen to an informative Earth Day program on a vital ecological issue in Arizona and the Southwest. The centerpiece will be a panel discussion looking ahead to Arizona’s wildfire season featuring three of the top experts in the field.
Fernanda Santos, The New York Times Phoenix bureau chief, is the author of an upcoming book on the deadly Yarnell Hill Fire. Jim Paxon, former Southwest Interagency Management Team spokesman, kept the public informed on the Rodeo Chediski Fire. Donald Falk, a UA professor, is an internationally recognized expert in the ecology and science of wildland fires.
Beer, wine and hors d’oeuvres will be served.
…..Date: April 22, 2015”
Oh great. We’ve got a wildfire on the east side of the Sandias right now, in Las Huertas Canyon, which is above Placitas, a relatively ancient awesome town whose biggest wildfire/watershed/flooding concern is a wildfire in that canyon.
Apparently, a hotshot crew that was conducting prescribed burning on Mount Taylor is heading to this fire.
Let me guess. Somebody walked off from a campfire that they didn’t put out.
Fortunately, we’re currently having a cold spell, with higher humidity, after we had three red flag warnings during the past three weeks.
Nobody can figure out if we in the Southwest are going to be “saved” or not by the weak El Nino that seems to be forming in the Pacific.
We’re three weeks into the “nail-biting” wildfire season here, after an idiot, who was an accomplice to a murder a number of years back, set at least three, if not more, fires in the Bosque that runs right up through the middle of Albuquerque.
This is what it is like to actually live with wildfire.
Some of it is theory. Some of it isn’t.
OK, back to reading Chapter One of Kyle’s book.
Maybe I/We should write a book.
And, all that said………
I really do believe that Albuquerque/Bernalillo County is more prepared for wildfire than Prescott has, after the Yarnell HIll Fire, “trimmed its budget” to be.
Marti,
Prescott still has a hotshot crew. Basically anything Prescott itself needs in terms of preparedness can be done now and could have been done in the past without a municipally run and supervised hotshot crew. What Prescott as a town won’t have, now, is a “cool thing” in terms of prestige, a potential profit center for the town, and a way for a few senior members of the town’s bureaucracy to potentially stay busy (and paid) after handing the reins of their old jobs over.
Also, frankly, defensible space and fuels reduction aren’t rocket science. It’s kind of like homes in the southeast finding a way for their lawns to stay mowed and reasonably weed-free, you can find a way to do it without expensive municipal lawn-mowing crews. And the same should apply to cutting back a little brush in Prescott, 5 guys from a Home Depot parking lot can get a lot of this done.
Reply to Marti Reed post on April 21, 2015 at 12:49 pm
>> Marti Reed said…
>>
>> Kyle Dickman is publishing a book about the Yarnell Fire. It’s called:
>> “On the Burning Edge: A Fateful Fire and the Men Who Fought It ”
>> http://www.amazon.com/On-Burning-Edge-Fateful-Fought/dp/0553392123
>> It will be released on May 12, 2015.
Well, unless I’m mistaken, that photo on the ‘supposed’ cover of the book isn’t
even from the Yarnell Fire. That’s not a good sign.
>> Marti also wrote…
>>
>> This Amazon page contains its first chapter. I haven’t read it yet.
I hope that isn’t the REAL ‘first Chapter’.
It’s all nice to read that disjointed text about ‘the first day back’ on the 2013
GM season and learn how Jesse Steed was so happy to be the acting superintendent
he would design the workouts to make people puke… but it has the same ‘feel’
as the article he wrote way back when. You can never be sure when he’s desrcibing reality and when he’s ‘making it up’ as he goes along.
LOL!!
I guess we’re BOTH going to have to buy the book and DISSECT it!!!!
So I just read Chapter One.
It’s definitely worth reading. The thing about Kyle is that he first started with a Forest Service Engine Crew when he was an 18-year-old college student and then went on to be a member of the Tahoe Hotshots, who he profiled earlier in June of 2013 right before the Yarnell Hill Fire.
Reading this chapter, I think he’s been doing a BUNCH of interviewing. He HAD to, in order to write just that chapter. He lives in Santa Fe, so it wouldn’t be hard or travel-time-consuming to do that.
I think this could be a REALLY interesting book.
Interesting, and TRAGIC, thing about those Tahoe Hotshots is that, in November of 2013, they were all celebrating the end of the season, getting pretty inebriated in the process, and one of their squad leaders walked off out of the party and, somehow, ended up prostrate on the road he was walking on, and, as a bunch of the OTHER Hotshots drove down that road, the driver of that car (who was, apparently also “under the influence”) drove over that Hotshot, who was, then, found dead.
It’s really an interesting thing to Google.
There seems to be some questioning as to whether or not that Hotshot might have been, actually, already dead or not when the Driver-Hotshot drove over him.
(There was another vehicle involved in the whole narrative.)
Kyle hasn’t written about any of this. But I have to imagine he’s gone through some inner conflict about which tragedy to focus his attention on.
Reply to Marti Reed post on April 21, 2015 at 5:32 pm
>> Marti said…
>>
>> I think this could be a REALLY interesting book.
Yes. Maybe even truthful.
The bottom line with the ‘book deal’ information that has come out only today is that we have ALWAYS known this was ‘coming’… and certain projects have been in various stages of ‘completion’ there ‘in the background’ for quite some time.
It has simply been assumed that no one doing a ‘book’ about the Yarnell tragedy would dare go to press until the lawsuits all ‘play out’.
The only thing that is is a little weird here is the TIMING… and this little tidbit of news that we are now supposed to accept the fact that Brendan’s therapist was telling attorneys who work for the Arizona Attorney General’s office ( and are tasked with representing Arizona State Forestry ) that it would be ‘too traumatic’ for Brendan to go through with a pre-scheduled behind-closed-doors deposition with THEM… but at the very same time the ink was drying on a “tell-all” book deal between Brendan and some famous author(s).
Have to admit… didn’t see THAT one coming.
So yes… there will be MANY books about Yarnell.
Which ones might actually be TRUE remains to be seen.
If the families really do still want “The Truth”… they will stick to their guns and still try to have Brendan deposed. That’s about the only way that any information coming out because of any backroom ‘book deals’ has a chance of being ‘believed’.
Only some actual ‘under oath testimony’ ( with actual perjury penalties involved ) sands the best chance of convincing the greatest number of people that what someone is saying happened out there that day is, in fact, the TRUTH.
You wrote:
“If the families really do still want “The Truth”… they will stick to their guns and still try to have Brendan deposed. That’s about the only way that any information coming out because of any backroom ‘book deals’ has a chance of being ‘believed’.
Only some actual ‘under oath testimony’ ( with actual perjury penalties involved ) sands the best chance of convincing the greatest number of people that what someone is saying happened out there that day is, in fact, the TRUTH.”
Exactly.
We have labored here for almost two years to dig down through everything that has been published via FOIAs to pin down some kind of FACTS i.e TRUTH.
And even WE haven’t even been able to get at that TRUTH because of the with-holding, on the part of various significantly important agencies, of EVIDENCE.
So, yes, I do wonder how it is that someone like Kyle Dickman (much less Fernanda Santos) is able to, at this time, before Brendan has even been deposed, publish a book on what happened at Yarnell, when even WE, who have labored at every inch of this all this time for free, can’t get at it.
I’m thinking Kyle has been doing a WHOLE LOT of interviewing (which I think HAS to be the basis of that Chapter One).
Did he interview Brendan for this book??? Who knows????
*Buys More Popcorn And Pizza* while pre-ordering the Kindle version of Kyle’s book.
Because who knows?????
I doubt Kyle interviewed Brendan because if he had gotten THAT scoop, there would be no basis for Brendan’s own book.
I’m not excited about this release at all because it’s being described as the ‘definitive’ book on the YHF when the ACTUAL DEFINITIVE INFORMATION has not been released yet.
The thing you have to watch out for with this Kyle Dickman guy is what he kept demonstrating when he wrote that big article way back when. ‘Wind him up’ with just a little bit of information and he ‘takes off’ like one of those friction toys on the floor.
Example: In that original article of his… he was absolutely SURE that Granite Mountain MUST have been only halfway down the slope on their descent into the canyon before they saw he fire ‘appearing’ at the mouth of the box canyon. He also then reported ( as if it was absolute FACT and as if even Brendan might have told him this ) that Granite Mountain then had to run FORWARD and finish ‘descending’ before they even found the site where they deployed.
So forget the fact that if they were halfway UP the descent path, they still MIGHT have had a chance at a ‘full reversal’… and forget the chance that Kyle cites no actual ‘source’ for his theory… he still reported this as absolute FACT and that “that is the way it happened”.
I certainly hope his damn BOOK isn’t like that… or it is going to be just as hard to tell ( as it was in his Outsider Online magazine article ) when he is reporting something as TOLD to him or as SUPPORTED by evidence… and when he is just “making it up” like he’s good at doing.
OOOH BOY—–Just read on AZ Central that McDonough has signed a book deal to tell the whole story of Yarnell hill Fire. Before he even says any thing to the Families and the Public.
ARE YOU FRIQING KIDDING ME MONEY TALKS ???????????
So Brendan said that there was no bad decision etc, it was just an accident, but is now going to write a book about “no bad decisions”??
Sounds weird to me…
Right on–How can he turn tail now with his previous statement of no blame. Does that mean he is willing to make up a new story that pays and had let the loved ones down in their hope to find closure in this incident.
The general public likes tall tales–but those in the firefighting community and the loved ones of those deceased only want the facts.
One thing the bosses on this tragedy enjoy is the fact that all this attention is going to a green-horn firefighter who poo-poos the common sense rules of safety and whose ass was grass had not some well informed and brave blue ridge fireman rised his life to retrieve the look out that did not look out.
The focus needs to be on the whole picture and why those that ran this fire did it the way they did. Those phone records in the hands of certain of the widows and others need to be read and I am certain they are hoping that someone will bother to get them to see who was communicating with Marsh and Steed and when, etc. and why that Willis said they had lost communication immediately after Marsh or Steed said they were safe in the black. What about Hall’s records, Willis’s records and every boss that had any thing to do with the Yarnell fire–who, when and under oath what were they saying. You can bet there will be a lot of 5th amendment testimony.
I would still like to know why investigators never contacted Joy to find out about those photos of quads at the fire on Friday–actual photos that exist. Are these something that will be in one of the books and being skirted at this time for monetary reasons? Sad we do not have the Gary Olsen’, WTKT, Powers, Marti’s, Ted Putnam’s and people of such ilk on this tragedy–right here in Yarnell on the ground looking into these things– Tell me why the sheriff department, the officials of the fire department on this Yarnell fire tragedy would refuse one of the leading fire death investigators from being admitted to the area or shown the way they went. You would think that they would want that man’s opinion and ideas considering he had 11 years of smoke jumping and firefighting experience to go along with his expertise from past investigations in such incidents. What the hell was in their minds to refuse him?\
I understand that you can’t have 20 men working together and have independent thinkers who would disobey orders that might do others harm. But dropping off into a tangled up maze of manzanita had nothing to do with harming anyone but those who dropped off into that steep box canyon. There is where at least someone with a lick of sense would have balked. Something in the human factor has to be considered here–and I believe it has to start at the very top–was that Roy Hall? Who is next and who after all was right above Marsh and Steed? Did they disobey superiors? I think not, in fact — someone was asking Marsh or Steed to drop down to Yarnell and that Helms was the shortest but most dangerous route and a sure killer if that wind changed–something those men had to know since I knew it and am not the least bit educated in fire fighting methods. The old mayor Kuydendall said common sense goes a long ways.
That they knew, yet what human factors caused them to fail? It was hot and they were indeed tired and overworked. But then consider my age at 71 and that Joy and I had struggled through that manzanita, brambles, catclaw and dead brush at the very place they died earlier that morning. It took us about 3 hours to cross only about a mile of that mess. We were often backtracking to find another way around the dense maze of manzanita and often on our bellies crawling under dense brush to get through. Granted, Marsh would have beat our time, maybe by 2/3’s considering how I saw him going up that mountain like a jack rabbit. Whew he was in shape but those fellows he had command of that day looked bushed when we passed them on our way south about 9:30. So they went meekly to their deaths? Why when before them at the very spot they went down Joy and I argued and you could not have gotten me down there for any reason-yet an hour later with the fire even more progressed they did it? There has to be plenty of convincing to get someone to do that. Joy told me later that maybe a bear or mountain lion blocked them. Not 19 men I replied. A flying saucer had unloaded an army perhaps and forced them down or shot them with a mind controlling frequency that confused them–or more likely they were tired and listened to orders without to much attention to their own safety. I have to believe there were some bosses involved here and even above Marsh and Steed and they are hoping Donut will stay in the lime light.
Yes bosses, I saw it once in a mining job that I quit while 6 others stayed on and got caught back in a mine– but the boss said it was safe, still I was the only one to pick up my check– but mine jobs are easy to replace, miners are hard to find and you can always tramp a mine to get another the next day. Maybe those fellows were worried and had permanent homes– the human factor caught them.
Here’s a direct link to the article…
AZCENTRAL
Article Title: Yarnell Fire survivor gets book deal amid controversy
Published: 6:55 a.m. MST April 21, 2015
http://www.azcentral.com/story/news/local/arizona/2015/04/21/yarnell-fire-survivor-gets-book-deal-amid-legal-strife/26110225/
From the article….
—————————————————————
A Prescott wildfire lookout who lived through the deadly Yarnell Hill blaze of 2013 signed a book deal at about the same time his sworn testimony was canceled based on concerns from his therapist that a deposition would jeopardize his treatment for post-traumatic stress.
Former Granite Mountain Hotshots member Brendan McDonough has been working with best-selling author Stephan Talty to produce a book that, according to online promotional materials, will reveal “the untold story from the lone survivor of the Yarnell Hill Fire.”
McDonough, who has retained a private attorney and an agent, barely escaped flames that killed 19 fellow hotshots June 30, 2013. Reached by phone Monday, he declined to explain why his treatment precluded sworn testimony but did not prevent participation in a book. He referred calls to his legal representative and his agent.
—————————————————————
Brendan is functioning like a true ‘celebrity’ now.
All calls being referred to his ‘lawyer’ and his ‘agent’.
Something tells me that when ALJ Judge Michael A. Mosesso gets wind of this… he’s going to change his mind about how he doesn’t normally like to issue subpoenas for depositions.
By the way… Stephan Talty happens to be the co-author of the book that was turned into the ‘Captain Philips’ movie starring Tom Hanks.
Interestingly enough, there is now a later version of the same story, published by USAToday. Just a slight bit different.
Yarnell fire survivor gets book deal amid legal strife
Dennis Wagner, Yvonne Wingett Sanchez and Robert Anglen, The Arizona Republic 10:39 a.m. EDT April 21, 2015
http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2015/04/21/yarnell-fire-survivor-book-deal/26118665/
It has some links in it, including one to the original AZCentral article and one to the Publishers Marketplace site.
It also leaves out this sentence:
“McDonough’s lawyer in the ADOSH case, David M. Shapiro, said he was not aware of the book deal and could not comment on it.”
Both stories continue the bias that:
“The division The Arizona Division of Occupational Safety and Health, which is charged with finding the truth about on-the-job accidents, has sought to delay or prevent McDonough’s deposition.”
Which, as you have corrected me on, WTKTT, is “true,” but only by about three molecules.
>> Marti said…
>>
>> Both stories continue the bias that:
>> “The division The Arizona Division of Occupational Safety and
>> Health, which is charged with finding the truth about on-the-job
>> accidents, has sought to delay or prevent McDonough’s deposition.”
>>
>> Which, as you have corrected me on, WTKTT, is “true,” but only by
>> about three molecules.
Yes…. and in case anyone is ‘still scratching their head’ over this stupid statement that keeps popping up like a wine cork in MSM articles… here’s the ‘411 skinny’ on that again.
ADOSH was NEVER ‘objecting’ to or trying to ‘prevent’ Brendan McDonough’s under-oath deposition. The ONLY thing ADOSH did was ask Judge Mosesso to move it from November 26, 2014 to about two weeks later, right after December 13, 2014.
Why?… because December 13, 2014 was already the day that ADOSH and ‘Arizona Forestry’ where scheduled to do a ‘document exchange’ as part of the ongoing ‘discovery’ process in the case.
ADOSH just thought waiting until AFTER that document exchange would increase the chances of a BETTER interview with McDonough and a BETTER cross-examination. Some of the testimony/information in that December 13 ‘exchange’ might actually create even MORE questions that, perhaps, only Brendan can answer… so why not just wat the extra 2 weeks and depose him AFTER that document exchange?
That’s all there was to that… but the MSM ( Mainstream Media ) just LOVES to report about ‘conflict’ and ‘drama’… so they jumped all over this like it was some huge bone of contention between the ‘Arizona Forestry’ and the DOSH lawyers.
It wasn’t. Never was. Isn’t now.
ADOSH basicically couldn’t care less if Brendan is deposed at this point, or not. ADOSH has already told Judge Mosesso they don’t think anything Brendan has to say is going to change or mitigate their original findings and citations in any way.
For Brendan to actually supply even MORE evidence that fire management was making negligent and ill-informed decisions there in Yarnell that weekend is just going to be more ‘piling on’ to the evidence that is ALREADY ‘out there’.
Thank you for writing this.
For the record.
And there is also now an editorial in AZCentral, by EJ Montini.
“Smoldering doubts over Yarnell hotshot’s book deal”
http://www.azcentral.com/story/ejmontini/2015/04/21/yarnell-hill-fire-brendan-mcdonough-stephan-talty-book-deal/26117765/
He’s basically saying it’s OK for Brendan to “make money” off of his story, as people do.
However, he seems to be missing the point that, in context, Brendan could be continuing to get himself into even more trouble than he is already in, it seems to me.
And doesn’t it seem a bit strange that, as this thing seems to have been going on for some time, his lawyer is saying he didn’t know anything about it?
>> Marti said…
>>
>> And doesn’t it seem a bit strange that, as this thing seems
>> to have been going on for some time, his lawyer is saying
>> he didn’t know anything about it?
It’s perfectly possible he ( Mr. David Shapiro ) did NOT know about it.
It’s also perfectly possible we are going to end up discovering that Brendan McDonough has always been ‘playing’ everyone ‘like a violin’.
It is still about HIS agenda… and how HE wants to ‘control’ the narrative, and what HE wants to ‘get out of it’.
You wrote:
“It is still about HIS agenda… and how HE wants to ‘control’ the narrative, and what HE wants to ‘get out of it’.”
I’ve been SO going back and forth about that, as you obviously know, by know.
I keep thinking he’s just being jacked around by all the “other interested parties,” who are exploiting his trauma.
This could still fit in to that context.
(By the way, I still haven’t “contacted” Doug…..it’s the awkwardness thing. This morning before I stumbled on all of this, my thinking was, Doug is smart enough and “experienced” enough (in all this trauma/PTSD/Survivor’s Guilt stuff to be capable of “seeing” what’s going on with Brendan in all this drama, so I’ll just stay out of his relationship to it…..)
On the other hand, maybe you’re right, and it all IS Brendan’s agenda, and ALL his agenda, at play.
It’s still really hard for me to tell whether he’s the VICTIM in this or the PLAYA.
Regardless of whether EJMontini thinks Brendan is justified in making $$$$$ off of his story, at this point NOBODY is going to either BELIEVE him or TRUST him on ANYTHING ever again, imho.
Sorry for my various typos here and there. It’s cold in Burque and my hands are freezing.
>> Marti said…
>>
>> It’s still really hard for me to tell whether he’s the VICTIM
>> in this or the PLAYA.
He actually could STILL be BOTH.
In other words… I don’t think Brendan was alone in NOT wanting the whole truth to come out in the beginning… but when others around him realized that he was ‘onboard’ with that idea already…. they just sat back and let him be both VICTIM and PLAYA.
They KNEW that NOT telling the truth wouldn’t be good for Brendan in the long run… but as long as that was giving them what THEY wanted they ‘kept their mouths shut’.
So in that sense ( of not receiving proper legal advice early on )… Brendan was as much a VICTIM as a PLAYA.
I think he still has some pretty twisted ideas in his head about some need to ‘protect his brothers’, or something.
Protect them from WHAT… we’re not sure.
That’s just part of the whole mental thing going on with Brendan and how he may still be vacillating between VICTIM and PLAYA.
If it was just ‘an accident’… ( as he has always said he is sure it was ) then there has NEVER been an need to protect anyone FROM anything. Period. End of story.
My take is he drifted before GM, was always a sucker for peer pressure both negative and positive, and isn’t consciously manipulating anything. However, openly testifying to conduct that could be perceived as reckless, while it could help the victim’s families get just compensation for their losses, could be felt by him to be a betrayal. At the risk of seeming callous, I would also say that to the extent that he presents as a victim there are a lot of hidden compensations for that status in today’s world. It can be hard to walk away voluntarily from that treatment. So that’s not manipulation but definitely a temptation. The book will sell better if he’s still a victim.
Problem with this game on both VICTIMS/PLAYAS sides, it seems to me, is that I’m having a hard time imagining that book coming out after he has had to testify, either in a closed room with Mossaso, or an open courtroom with TV cameras.
Unless I’m missing something.
Kyle Dickman’s coming out with what I think is the first major book on the Yarnell Fire in May. He’s a major pro, has written a lot already about the fire, was once a hotshot himself, and it took HIM almost two years to get HIS book done.
Yes. Even as ‘confusing’ as all this is… you are absolutely right to remind us that there basically now HAS to be those kind of ‘background considerations’ on the part of an actual ‘publisher’.
In other words… it’s pretty hard to launch a marketing campaign that you’ve worked hard on which advertises a product as a “tell all” tome… when “what all is being told” is already common knowledge before you actually PUBLISH.
Marketing people really hate it when THAT happens. No question.
So there really MUST be an actual ‘monetary incentive’ component involved here now.
Maybe not even on Brendan’s part… but certainly on the Publisher’s part.
If they ‘signed the deal’ months ago ( as today’s information has said )… then were they ( the publishers and this famous author guy ) just as blind-sided by City Attorney Jon Paladini pulling his own little “tell all” preemptive strike?
Where they slamming their fists on their desks when Paladini’s story hit the wires…
…or were they ‘rubbing their hands together’?
Two different things you can do with your hands.
It’s hard to say… but I unless Jon Paladini is ‘on their payroll’ and participating in some kind of bizarre marketing campaign… ( NOT likely ) I have to imagine Brendan’s actual publisher and that famous author were PISSED at the ‘information’ that Paladini suddenly leaked.
When your marketing people are ready to go with the “TELL-ALL-TOME” campaign… it’s hard to have to tell them they might have to dial-it-back to the “CONFIRM-WHAT-EVERYONE-ALREADY KNOWS-TOME”. Not nearly as ‘exciting’ ( or profitable? ).
And, yeah, I agree it’s probably some combination.
But I think a lot of people are getting really tired of this thing, whatever it is.
WTKTT,
Knowing now (that he has known all along) that it really wasn’t an “accident”, I think he is headed for some really rough waters ahead.
I have in the past stated that I thought we should give Brendan the benefit of the doubt for his actions occurring within 1 to 1 1/2 years of the YHF. I listed several reasons such as possible PTSD, Brendan having received potentially suspect advice at a time when he was most vulnerable, along with the desire to protect some, or all of the names of his deceased brothers.
I still think that benefit of the doubt is warranted for THAT SPECIFIC TIME PERIOD, but it ended at the point in time he confided the truth to some, but not the families and the public-at-large.
The book announcement has put him in a huge pickle. He can’t finish the book until the court cases that he might have to testify in under oath are completed (which may take years). Otherwise, his testimony under oath including examination and cross may conflict with statements in the book.
And I doubt we’ll see anything in the book about “accident” or “hillbilly”.
I am positive that Brendan AND his attorney, are both wishing that that ‘announcement’ had not been made at this time, and in fact, had been put off until such time that all this other brouhaha had died down a bit.
There is absolutely nothing about this announcement that benefits Brendan or his attorneys efforts (or his possible disability claim with the City). If anything, it puts Brendan in a much worse light than his was in, even yesterday. It almost seems like it was done without either one’s knowledge, and the article confirms that fact for his attorney.
The ONLY benefit from this announcement is that the publisher has created an early buzz for the project. To me, it seems that it came at the expense of putting much more pressure on Brendan, with possible additional damage to his reputation.
It’s quite possible that the book deal is just another outsiders attempt to make money, using Brendan and the tragedy as the vehicle. What may have sounded like a good thing to Brendan at the time, may be one more thing in that long list that have come back to bite him.
I’m wondering. Did he have some sort of self-reconning way back in October? One that could have presented itself along the lines of, ‘Wait a minute, I can’t tell the truth in my book if I’ve never told anybody else the truth. That won’t play well’.
self-“reckoning”
You wrote:
“I am positive that Brendan AND his attorney, are both wishing that that ‘announcement’ had not been made at this time, and in fact, had been put off until such time that all this other brouhaha had died down a bit.”
I think you might be on to something here.
The possibility that “word got out” without Brendan even knowing about it.
Which would make more sense than if HE had made it public.
I tried to find that announcement on that “Publishers Marketplace” site, but you can’t access it unless you are a paid member.
Because what you wrote made me wonder, how, indeed, did this thing “break.”
I would be willing to bet ArizonaRepublic/AZCentral IS a paid member of Publishers Marketplace.
I’m thinking the way this “broke” was that somebody at AZCentral noticed it and then got one of the three writers of that article to call the “Los Angeles-based agent Steve Fisher.”
The AZCentral article says:
“In an interview last week, Los Angeles-based agent Steve Fisher confirmed that a book is in the offing.
“I suggested to Brendan that he should tell his story in book form, and he agreed and I arranged that for him,” Fisher said Friday. The narrative, he added, will focus on events leading “up to and after the fire and his efforts to help firefighter families.”
Fisher said the contract is with Hachette Book Group, and McDonough’s account will be written by Talty. The agreement was arranged several months ago, Fisher said, and the project is in early stages. Fisher would not discuss payment or any other details about the contract.
Talty said in an e-mail he will not talk about the book until it is published.”
This is in a paragraph BELOW the one which says:
“…Reached by phone Monday, he declined to explain why his treatment precluded sworn testimony but did not prevent participation in a book. He referred calls to his legal representative and his agent.”
I think, all things considered, it might just be the case that the next thing we will read about is that Brendan has fired this agent.
Because this story ain’t buying him any friends. Or time. I think Brendan got broadsided on this one.
Hopefully he’s learning something. I wouldn’t bank on it though.
And, also, yesterday, this was published on “Insurance Journal”:
Settlement Talks Continue in Arizona Wildfire Wrongful Death Case
April 20, 2015
http://www.insurancejournal.com/news/west/2015/04/20/365066.htm
“Parties in a wrongful-death lawsuit stemming from the 2013 Yarnell Hill Fire say they need more time to discuss a settlement.
Lawyers for the sides told a U.S. District Court judge on Friday that they’re working in good faith to resolve the case. They requested that it be put on hold until May 27.”
“The lawyers say they expect to reconvene settlement talks next month. They say talks have been complicated by a separate but related case that imposed fines and citations on the state Forestry Division.”
Notice that it says NOTHING about HOW ( or in WHAT way ) the ‘wrongful death’ settlements are being ‘complicated’ by the “Arizona Forestry vs. ADOSH” proceedings.
The ‘complication’ could actually be nothing more than this attempt to get the TRUTH out of Brendan McDonough.
This plays into/out of that whole thing where ADF is trying to get ADOSH to drop the citation related to Brendan being endangered by/via his Lookout Assignment by saying it would be oh so much less expensive and complicated and oh so much less TRAUMATIC for Brendan to NOT have to testify about that (via citing a STATUTE that has been REPEALED and so nobody is buying that game)……
……While at the SAME TIME pushing and prodding to get the judge to order him to be subpoenaed, even as the judge sees no reason and has no precedent to do so.
But I guess this is just another typical day in what lawyers do……………….
You wrote:
“Something tells me that when ALJ Judge Michael A. Mosesso gets wind of this… he’s going to change his mind about how he doesn’t normally like to issue subpoenas for depositions.”
My first thought was “Agree. *Buys More Popcorn*”
On the other hand, maybe not?
I’m thinking about how, when the “breaking news” about Brendan’s “new revelations” SEEMED to appear to be news in ADF’s favor, as we picked it all apart, we realized it might NOT be, ALL things considered.
This may be also more damaging to ADF than anybody else. THEY’RE the ones that REALLY REALLY want Brendan to “tell all” before they can fully have a strategy for negotiations in the “global mediation.”
It may be that, as has been the case all along, ADOSH and the Judge maybe could care less because it doesn’t really change their findings, especially enough to waste more time and $$$$$ than necessary on it.
I also find it interesting that as you and Bob Powers were perusing the newest filings, the appearance of what you were finding was that the battle was still drawn and blazing between the ADOSH/ADF lawyers and no “good faith” “mediation” looked possible; while the Insurance Journal article I posted above made it sound like both sides (families vis ADF with ADOSH somewhere at the table but we don’t know exactly “where”) were presenting to THAT Judge that the mediation was proceeding quite smoothly and successfully, but they just needed another month to kinda sorta “smooth out” their differences.
Given all of this, I don’t think it’s ALL that inevitable that Mosesso would necessarily decide to jump in and do ADF’s bidding, as he hasn’t all along.
Especially given how, as we have seen, ADF’s lawyers have been operating TOTALLY not “in good faith” all along.
ADOSH/Mosesso, it seems to me, still have NOTHING to lose to just let ADF continue to hang itself.
>> Marti said…
>>
>> ADOSH/Mosesso, it seems to me, still have NOTHING to lose
>> to just let ADF continue to hang itself.
That’s true…. but let me correct something here.
You make it sound like the “Arizona Forestry vs. ADOSH” case is all about ADOSH/Mosesso against ‘Arizona Forestry’.
That is NOT The case. Judge Michael A. Mosesso is the Arizona Administrative Law Judge that has been assigned to this “Arizona Forestry vs. ADOSH Citations” case… but he has no “dog in the hunt”.
He is not ‘affiliated’ with EITHER ADOSH or ‘Arizona Forestry’.
He is just the Judge that will be presiding over the eventual HEARING in this case ( and not a TRIAL or anything like that ) and he will making the actual decision ( himself, no jury ) about the validity of the original ADOSH fines and citations.
It is ADOSH alone that really could care less about what Brendan McDonough has to say, at this point.
ADOSH has been telling Judge Mosesso all along that they believe their Citations and fines, as already issued, will stand up to scrutiny as valid regardless of whether Brendan supplies any additional ‘testimony’, at this pont, which he should have done in the first place.
For there to be even MORE evidence that there was ‘negligence’ taking place at the management level that day would really just be ‘piling on’, as far as the ADOSH Citations are concerned.
There was plenty of evidence of that kind of chaos and mis-management and bad decision making going on that ENTIRE weekend without needing any additional ‘testimony’ from Brendan.
ADOSH is only allowed to issue a certain MAXIMUM amount of penalties to any one employer for any one incident… and ADOSH was ‘pegging the meter’ on the ‘Yarnell Hill Fire’ even before they finished their first round of interviews. It really is a miracle that MORE people didn’t die that day.
I totally agree with what you are saying here, and have been interpreting this in that way.
Which is why I am contemplating/asking/wondering if any of THIS act in this play changes anything in Mosseso’s position. And I’m thinking maybe it doesn’t.
It’s just more drama.
Or do you think it does change his thinking?
Reply to Marti Reed post on April 21, 2015 at 10:57 am
>> Marti said…
>>
>> Which is why I am contemplating/asking/wondering if
>> any of THIS act in this play changes anything in Mosseso’s
>> position. And I’m thinking maybe it doesn’t.
>>
>> Or do you think it does change his thinking?
It’s always hard to say how any Judge is going to react to discovering that a key witness in a case over which he/she happens to be presiding is discovered to be ‘jerking off’ the attorneys.
Don’t forget… Judges can issues “Orders to Appear” for just about ANY reason… even if they just want to hear something from your own lips and not filtered through therapists or attorneys.
They can also issue ‘contempt of court’ citations for any number of reasons… if they feel there really is blatant ‘contempt’ for the court proceedings taking place on anyone’s part… such as ( perhaps ) lying your way out of scheduled depositions and whatnot.
This whole this is seeming to go to ‘crazy town’ in such a hurry then nothing would surprise me at this point.
Judge Mosesso might feel the need to ‘jump in’ here and start issuing subpoenas… or he might not.
One thing you can be sure of… this isn’t your momma’s ADOSH citation hearing going on. This one is fast going ‘off the reservation’ and I don’t think either the Judge or the Attorneys for either side were quite prepared for the complete array of shenanigans here coming from Mr. Brendan McDonough.
I think it’s already at the point where everyone is just ‘making it up as they go along’ and no one really knows what is going to happen next.
Gotcha!
You wrote:
“I think it’s already at the point where everyone is just ‘making it up as they go along’ and no one really knows what is going to happen next.”
Which might be, all things considered (including all the crappola ADF’s lawyers are handing out), exactly the reason Judge Mosesso might actually be considering calling a halt to all this WASTEFULLY expensive legal/whatever drama and just issuing a friggin subpoena to Brendan to just testify under oath (without cameras).
Even though that isn’t his NORMAL standard operating procedure.
Just get it over with, already.
That won’t preclude Brendan being ALSO subpoenaed to testify again UNDER OATH (and in front of TV cameras) in the wrongful death lawsuits, if and when, because of what we are seeing as ADF’s NOT-IN-GOOD-FAITH manipulations vis-a-vis the ADOSH citations, the “global mediation” process breaks down, and the whole dang thing winds up in court.
Which is, according to what we are seeing, where it seems to be headed.
So what I just wrote above may be the “answer” to the question in what I wrote:
“…..if any of THIS act in this play changes anything in Mosseso’s position.”
And, in case anybody reading/writing here is on Twitter, I’m indebted to WildFireOps @WildFire_Ops for posting all of these stories. They’re following Prescott Wildfire stories closely.
Hah!
Now the story’s on Wildfire Today!
“Yarnell Hill Fire survivor gets book deal”
http://wildfiretoday.com/2015/04/21/yarnell-hill-fire-survivor-gets-book-deal/
“The only survivor of the Granite Mountain Hotshots’ tragedy during the 2013 Yarnell Hill Fire in Arizona has signed a book deal with a best-selling author. Brendan McDonough was serving as a lookout when the other 19 members of his crew were entrapped by the fire and killed.”
That might elicit some interesting comments!
So let me get this straight, he won’t tell his side of the story to a lawyer or judge, in court, as he suffers from PTSD and it would be too tough on him….but he is willing to sit and relive the whole shootin match with an author, to write a book about it..
I am confused… Isn’t testifying in court, and having a transcript done, in all reality, the same as writing a book???
Oh wait, you don’t get royalties from court testimony.. My bad..
You wrote:
“Isn’t testifying in court, and having a transcript done, in all reality, the same as writing a book???”
Actually, no, it’s not.
LOL! As I”m sure you know.
He’s GUARANTEEING he’s gonna have to testify in some kind of court, imho.
One way, or the other.
In a closed hearing with Mosseso, or an open one in front of TV cameras, if his stalling is the biggest reason they’re having to keep delaying the “settlement” process.
If someone’s telling him this is his “get out of ‘jail’ free” card, they and he may be sorely mistaken, it seems to me.
Oh my.
Where is my Angostura aromatic bitters?
I need some serious settling to my stomache…indeed.
This is very rough news to me.
Be right back…I have to throw up!
Shew, rough news here Bob Powers.
I hope Brendan in this new book is detailed to not just that final hours which with all the busy ways to that final hours he is “crystal clear” what he places out in the world as “his” testimony or account and remembers -GOD HAS THE PLAN- and that this public has been fed enough narratives already…PURITY WELCOMED ONLY!
I hope the realism cores to the beginning of the day on 6-30-13 when changing at the crew buggies off Sesame Street area and Brendan mentions the one man who was having radio concerns from the start and I really hope Brendan speaks about his pure demeanor that very morning and how the other men were interacting with his mood. I hope he talks about “how” he became the lookout for that Yarnell Hill Fire versus another person. I hope he talks about the ridge he was on and the lookout spot— we know what he was doing on the ridge and the lookout. I hope when he writes the book he has it engrained that 2 track ridge moment that aired over the radios and where a lady dispatcher is not in SAIR/OSHA reports nor ever interviewed. I hope Brendan realizes at some point each and every person has to meet our Maker and that I am sickened already over the people who have come to the hikers to share yet have not yet to investigators.
I am very very sad. This world is ridiculous,.
Terrible news for me personally to hear that this young man has decided to make the first account be shown in a book deal versus just coming out when SOOOOOO many lives were lost and SOOOOOO many lives this has affected…what a true shame.
Yet the only thing Sonny said was …Money talks and bullshit walks…
I have to let this media news sink in…is it hearsay or facts?
Where will the book go in the library?????
Fiction or non-fiction?????
Wait to see, I guess
If it ever gets actually published.
All things considered.
Joy:
I have to admit I LOLLED when I read this:
“Where is my Angostura aromatic bitters?”
But seriously.
I’m not quite sure what you mean by this:
“I hope the realism cores to the beginning of the day on 6-30-13 when changing at the crew buggies off Sesame Street area and Brendan mentions the one man who was having radio concerns from the start”
Are you talking about Rance Marquez, who is the only one who seems to have been having trouble with that?
And you say this:
“I hope he talks about “how” he became the lookout for that Yarnell Hill Fire versus another person.”
Absolutely!!!!!
EVERYTHING I have read/watched/heard says that a Lookout needs to be an EXPERIENCED (even to the level of a squad boss) wildland firefighter, completely on top of his/her game, who has enough authority to be able to even, if necessary, challenge decisions that are being contemplated by the Captain/Supervisor.
Sometimes, even, that Lookout is “elevated” to be a Division Lookout.
I totally don’t understand this decision.
To the extent that, it seems to me, a REAL Lookout would have, even if evacuated the way Brendan was, would STILL have understood the importance of continuing to keep track of both the SITUATION (even to the extent of driving to the Ranch House Restaurant, or even the Yarnell Fire Department, where he could have continued to keep his eyes on both the fire and the crew) and the location of the crew.
What is this deal about Granite Mountain choosing to designate their Lookout on the basis, seemingly, of his not really being quite “up to it” on the fireline that day?????
This has ALWAYS bugged me.
You wrote:
“I hope when he writes the book he has it engrained that 2 track ridge moment that aired over the radios and where a lady dispatcher is not in SAIR/OSHA reports nor ever interviewed. ”
I’m not exactly sure what you are referring to here, but I do know that you have periodically mentioned this dispatcher being silenced.
You said:
“Terrible news for me personally to hear that this young man has decided to make the first account be shown in a book deal versus just coming out when SOOOOOO many lives were lost and SOOOOOO many lives this has affected…what a true shame.”
See what we’ve been discussing above along the lines that Brendan (or his publishing “handlers”) may THINK he can just make the first account be in a book deal, but that dog ain’t gonna hunt, all things considered.
You wrote”
“is it hearsay or facts?”
I think it’s facts, at this point.
I thinks it’s a possibility, however, that it won’t stay “facts” for very long.
See what I wrote above about how it appears he may have been recruited into this “book deal,” and the deal was announced on that Publishers Marketplace website, at which point AZCentral decided to interview the agent, and then VOILA we now have what we now have.
The fruit-basket has been seriously upset.
EVENTUALLY, the TRUTH of this fire is going to emerge. It has to.
As you say, In God’s time. I’m not a major believer in what most Americans call “God.” On the other hand, I DO believe the Universe is intelligent, and, as Martin Luther King Jr. said, the arc of it bends toward justice.
As long as we HUMANS (as in all the recent PUSHES in the direction of truth and accountability regarding Police Brutality indicate) keep staying “AWOKE” and unwavering.
Which is EXACTLY what you and Sonny have been doing along.
And so I thank you, in general, and, specifically, for writing this post.
Back to the legal mumbo-jumbo a bunch more papers filed yesterday in the on going ADOSH –STATE legal disputes——-I did not note any thing earth shattering but I got a head ache trying
to read through it last night and gave up.
Still reading those myself and yes… it’s back to ‘mumbo jumbo’ while they try and work out some of these legal ‘issues’ and ‘points of order’ that have been laying on the table since BEFORE the ‘global mediation’ talks.
The key ‘takeaway’ is that they are, in fact, now RETURNING to filing more documents and trying to ‘work out’ some of these previous issues that went ‘on hold’ before the global mediation. ADOSH had said a few months ago that they didn’t feel it was even necessary to get ‘down in the weeds’ and spend any ‘billable hours’ on any of this stuff until after the March 2, 3 ‘global mediation’ sessions took place.
If things looked like they might ‘settle’… then all this ‘mumbo jumbo’ we are seeing now wasn’t even going to be necessary.
So what it appearing now in these documents means it really is “full steam ahead” and there isn’t going to be any kind of “settlement” in at least this “Arizona Forestry vs. ADOSH” case.
I also don’t see anything new regarding Brendan McDonough or his (supposed) PTSD diagnosis or anything about his ‘therapist’ and if/when a new deposition might be scheduled.
This last update really is nothing but the ‘mumbo jumbo’ of lawyers in the middle of a ‘discovery’ exchange both trying to force the other side to release more ‘evidence’ and ‘information’ than they really want to.
Gary said
Does anybody have any questions as to why my plan back in the day would have been to drop back to the next drainage and backfire the entire fucking valley?
Why do you think that is NOT what the GMIHC were doing?
It seems that was the plan being implemented by Cordes as he was sending Ball and Hernandez(?) near Glen Isla to scout for a place to push a dozer line?
So, are you you saying that you would have made the same move as GM, just earlier in the day?
Apologies if I am not misinterpreting, or just fail to understand.
I guess I didn’t make myself clear. If I would have been leading the Granite Mountain Hotshots and somebody insisted I do something, I would have opted for pulling back to state highway 89 and backfiring the Weaver Mountains, which would have included Yarnell and the surrounding communities filled with non defensible structures and people who had done little or nothing to save themselves or their property.
But since that idea would have been impractical and is merely a manifestation of my caustic, angry and sarcastic opinion of Yarnell and the Yarnell Hill Fire, in reality, I would have simply kicked back in the black and waited with my HAND CREW for the firestorm to pass before I thought about leaving the black at which time I would have radioed command to ask somebody in charge what they would like our next objective to be. And then given how chaotic the fire was, I would have evaluated those instructions carefully before committing my crew to that course of action.
Which brings up another point I am pretty sure I have made in the past. The Yarnell Hill Fire was an extreme example of chaos but one of the dirty little secrets of wildland firefighting is the first 36 to 48 hours on just about every fire is chaotic and that is where hotshot crews are supposed to excel.
Fire commanders can put hotshots out in that type of environment and have every expectation those crews will adapt and overcome while they remain self sufficient requiring little or no oversight from what is typically a fire team that is stretched thin and faced with multiple problems they need to overcome before they get down in the weeds with specific instructions for a hotshot crew.
Command should be able to give a hotshot crew general guidelines (i.e. anchor the west flank) and have every right to go on about a thousand other tasks while remaining confident that hotshot crew is working hard and safely on the western flank of the fire to stop its spread in that direction.
And I don’t think this is Monday morning armchair quarterbacking on my part. I think that WTKTT’s fade in and out Goggle Earth video made it crystal clear to everyone that standing at the top of that chute looking down into a valley as it was being consumed by a fiercely wind driven fire storm with a very impressive pyroclastic cloud towering over everything and then making a decision to descend into that chute was truly an inexplicable choice. Just ask Sonny, he took one look at the firestorm and he went quickly in the opposite direction and he had never been to any fire training or have any previous experience.
The more I learn about the Yarnell Hill Fire, the more I realize it had nothing in common with the other three hotshot fatality fires. But all three of those other fires (Loop, Battlement Creek, South Canyon) shared all of the important factors as commonalities.
Calvin
I do not know if Cordes really had a plan but it just dose not seem likely.
Nor do I believe that Marsh moved the crew to re-engage.
I can say from a Certified Back Firing specialist which I was on a California team
There are few criteria to meet if you plan such a strategy—–
1. There was no formal strategy.
2. The Timing was to late when the crew moved and would have been to late by 1200.
3. The fire weather forecast was way out side of a successful Back fire.
Not only the forecast but the current weather on the fire low humidity’s, high temp., squarely winds by 1500.
4. No line built and secure to fire from, with out endangering structures.
It would have taken a full 8 hour shift to build a line to backfire from with a cat and crew it was just to late to consider that option.
5. Not enough resources available that were not engaged with other assignments.
Almost all Back Fires are done at night when the weather is favorable the line is built and identified and the wind is in you favor. It take’s a lot of man power Engines and burning equipment. Safety for your firing crews and also no structures can be threatened.
Liability is a bitch when it comes to intentionally burning structures.
A back fire would not have meet the criteria to safely accomplish any objective on the south or east side of the fire.
As for the crew had they made the BSR they would have been stuck there for some time until they could walk out or get vehicles to haul them out.
There was no re-engage for a hand crew from 1600 on……
And we were lucky a Engine crew was not trapped and burned over as well trying to get to BSR.
In my opinion that is exactly why GM made the move from the safe black. Someone was intending a last ditch effort or “hail mary pass” when everything started going south. I know Bob and I differ on this, but I have seen it done a number of times under less than “text book” conditions. Some times it has worked and some times not, but I believe it was felt that was the only option left (I know conditions, timing and resources were not ideal) to divert the fire from non defendable structures . Knowing that the timing was crucial someone (don’t remember if they were identified or not) asked if they could get here faster, that’s when Marsh replied that they were coming from the heel of the fire. In my mind this is the only reason you would want a “Hotshot” crew to hustle down to the interface.
Don’t get me wrong – this in no means justifies the move from the safe black, but in my opinion is the only explanation for the move. Again, not justification by any means!
While only another possible reason to move I look at the time of day the location of the crew and the possibility of being stuck on the mountain for 3 plus hours.
We have no reason or request for the crew to move in any of the testimony so along with an option that they were moving to re-engage
is the also possibility of just getting off the mountain so they could tie into there vehicles.
1. The only thing said was they were moving to a Safety Zone.
2. No mention of moving to a new assignment. at the time Ball and the Cat moved it was already to late to build Cat line. The fire was already into Glen Isla based on WTKTT fade video by or before 1620.
3 The hurry up statement has never been directly tied to GM
and could be some one else talking to another person.
We still have some need for clarification.
And you are right there is no Identity of the person who made that statement. or nothing in the statements to indicate who made it or to who. That if said to GM should have been noted by some one.
My thoughts over the past 2 years. McDonough should have the answer if he herd the discussion there had to be a reason to move to the BSR????????????
What ever the reason they fail to provide for safety.
All good points Bob but I still don’t get it.
1. Moving to a Safe area, they were in the best safe area of anyone. To have an alleged argument about moving to a different safe area doesn’t make any sense.
2. No mention of moving to a new assignment, but really no mention of moving at all other than a safe area. But here I go talking myself out of my theory, if they were really moving to reengage why not have your buggies bumped to BSR to resupply and then transport to the new assignment?
3. Although this is not verified, I don’t know who else would have been coming from the heel of the fire – I think GM was the only one out there.
Yep, as you have said McDonough and others would have the answers. I know we both agree regardless of the reason they should never have left the safest place on the entire incident, until conditions allowed.
I agree with the best safe area out there why move.
What ever Marsh said to get Steed to move must have been acceptable . But wouldn’t Steed have known they were moving if some one asked Marsh to move the crew to re-engage? So just saying some thing dose not fit.
Why move from one Safety Zone to another and expose the crew to real danger. Those have been my questions for 2 years. If there was a plan why hide what you were doing. Talk to AA or OPS get eyes on you and advice at 1600 before committing to the move.
Agree with you on Marsh saying they were moving from the heel of the fire.
Just not sure about the hurry up statement. Was it really part of that discussion??????
Very Frustrating! This whole new wildland firefighting mantra of “being a learning organization/creating a learning culture” blah,blah,blah. People know what transpired on the mountain that day – yet no one is allowed to talk, especially the employees of the organization spouting the “learning culture!” Coming up on two years and the only real investigation has been on this site!
I got stuck in moderation –
So, I know I am not alone here. This is so frustrating! People have the answers but are not allowed to discuss the details of the event. Those employees are from the organization that has adopted the mantra of “a learning organization” yet won’t allow anyone to learn lessons because they won’t allow those involved to speak.. Does not seem like they really buy into their new mantra!
The only real investigation or learning has occurred on this site, although we don’t have all the answers (yet) thank you all for your diligence.
Having worked for the FS I am quite surprised at this new way of stopping employees from talking and redactions of statements. 30 years or even 20 ago that did not happen.
Mainly because the investigation was well done and the failures noted what was violated of the 10 SO and who was involved.
it has turned into a Legal fiasco. Not a learning event.
**
** MORE FROM PROFESSOR DOUG HULMES ABOUT BRENDAN MCDONOUGH
Oddly enough… the ‘Prescott Daily Courier’ has yet to even run even the generic Associated Press article from yesterday about the Lawyers in the ‘wrongful death’ lawsuits asking for yet ANOTHER 30 days to ‘settle’ the lawsuits…
…but they DID run an article YESTERDAY afternoon that features Brendan McDonough and talks more about that ‘Juniper Tree’ and Prescott College Professor Doug Hulmes again.
So this is actually a ‘followup’ to that discussion down below about Hulmes, McDonough and the Juniper tree.
In THIS article… we suddenly get a lot more DETAIL about that accidental ‘meetup’ that Professor Hulmes had out at the Juniper Tree with Brendan McDonough himself.
We NOW learn…
– Brendan was not ‘by himself’ when Hulmes accidentally ran into him a year ago ( in April of 2014 ) out at the tree. Brendan had hiked out there with TWO others ( unidentified ).
– This ‘accidental meetup’ was the FIRST time Brendan had returned to that Juniper tree since the tragedy.
– It was this same Professor Hulmes who, when the Doce fire broke out, notified Prescott National Forest Wilderness and Trails Manager Jason Williams about the Juniper tree… and Williams, in turn, was the one who had asked the Granite Mountain Hotshots if they could try and protect it.
– The GM Hotshots actually first considered cutting all the lower limbs of the tree OFF… but then decided against that and just cleared around it and did some ‘back burns’.
– The GM Hotshots actually LEFT the tree before the fire approached and had no idea if their efforts had succeeded until later.
– The GM Hotshots returned to the tree the NEXT DAY to find they had only partially succeeded. They found the tree SINGED and some flame actually still burning on one of the branches. That is when some of them climbed the tree and doused those flames with their water bottles.
– That SECOND day ( after returning to the tree and dousing the limb fires ) is when that famous ‘Pyramid Photo’ was taken there at the Juniper tree.
– This same Professor Hulmes has invited Brendan McDonough to attend a special ceremony to honor this ‘Juniper Tree’ that is happening this coming week, on April 23, the day before Arbor Day. It will be a public ceremony at the Arizona State Capitol Museum’s historic Senate chambers. There is no word whether Brendan McDonough actually plans to attend.
The Prescott Daily Courier
Article Title: Hotshots tree earns Magnificent 7 honor
Published: Friday, April 17, 2015 – 11:54 PM by Joanna Dodder Nellans
http://dcourier.com/main.asp?SectionID=1&SubSectionID=1&ArticleID=144281&TM=68707.55
From the article…
————————————————————————-
At 10 a.m. on April 23, the day before Arbor Day, a public ceremony at the Arizona State Capitol Museum’s historic Senate chambers will honor the Magnificent 7 trees as well as the Citizen Forester of the Year and communities that gain honors for planting trees. The public is welcome.
Professor Hulmes plans to attend with Joan Dukes, who first introduced him to the alligator juniper that she and others call the Grandfather Juniper. He also has invited (Brendan) McDonough.
————————————————————————-
Copy.
Look for an email.
**
** RESULTS OF LAST YARNELL HILL MEMORIAL BOARD MEETING ( APRIL 10, 2015 )
**
** AUCTION DATE SET – SOUTH HALF OF SECTION 9 APPRAISED AT $304,000
Once again… the Yarnell Hill Memorial Site Board is violating ‘Arizona Open Meeting’ laws and they have NOT published the ‘Draft Minutes’ of their last meeting within 72 hours.
Their last meeting took place a week ago on April 10, 2015.
But an article did appear a few days ago in the Prescott Daily Courier detailing what went on at this April 10 meeting.
The Prescott Daily Courier
Article Title: Public will get to submit designs for Hotshots memorial
Published 4/14/2015 6:02 AM by Joanna Dodder Nellans
http://dcourier.com/main.asp?SectionID=1&SubSectionID=1&ArticleID=144158&TM=68707.55
Highlights from the article…
– The Board is about to ask the PUBLIC to submit designs for the memorial.
– They ARE going to try and purchase all 320 acres comprising the entire South half of Section 9 where the deployment took place.
– NONE of the landowners around the site want to grant any kind of ‘access’ or ‘easement’ so that people can access the site.
– Yarnell Fire Chief Ben Palm has developed an ‘access plan’ throught other ‘State Land’ that involves a TWO MILE hike up STEEP terrain from somewhere down on Highway 89. There is only room for 3 vehicles to pull off Highway 89 at the trailhead. The article has a MAP showing where this ‘hiking trail’ would be. It actually ‘arrives’ up on the ridge at the same point where that ‘alternate escape route’ takes that turn heading to the east towards the Boulder Springs Ranch.
– The land has been valued at $950 per acre with total value $304,000.
– The actual ‘auction’ of the land is scheduled for 11:00 AM, Tuesday, June 30, 2015 on the steps of the Yavapai County Courthouse in Prescott.
And YES… that will be the actual morning of the THIRD anniversary of the tragedy itself… right in the same spot where they held last year’s ‘memorial’ service and will probably do so again this year.
There is still no word as to whether that small group of widows still plans to buy the land for themselves and be able to control access to it as they stated some months ago they intended to do. The recent article is only saying that (quote) “State officials are assuming no one will try to outbid them”.
What is worth noting, however, is that whoever *else* might end up bidding on the land will KNOW that this Yarnell Memorial Board only has a maximum of $500,000 they can use to buy the land.
That will actually make it easy to ‘outbid’ them on June 30, 2015.
The Yarnell Memorial Board won’t be able to match any bid over $500,000.
The article also says the NEXT meeting of this Yarnell Hill Memorial Board is now scheduled for May 29, 2015. Doesn’t say where. Probably the same place as the April 10 meeting ( Yavapai County Supervisor’s Office located in the County Administration Building at 1015 Fair Street in Prescott ).
By the way… some of the PUBLIC comments that have already appeared at the bottom of the article above are pretty weird.
One of them says it’s all just a ‘money making conspiracy’… and the OTHER one actually goes so far as to suggest that any official ‘memorial’ should be in Prescott itself in order to attract more visitors and more business and more money to the City of Prescott.
I kid you not.
Now that’s the Prescott (Everybody’s Hometown) that I know so well!
I noted the post by “Sharon Burke” in the comments on this story. Upon the conversion of the Courier’s commenting system from one that allowed an anonymous post, to the theoretically more accountable Facebook system, this person has appeared on each and every Yarnell related story, posting the most destructive and hateful “smack” possible about the survivors of the “Hotshots.” Given “Sharon’s” adoring remarks about the Kuykendall/Blair/Lamerson troika , that controls the City Council, most assumed “she” was one of the City Employee’s allegedly compelled to post comments as an employment condition in City Hall. After reading the latest installments noted above, it seems that this tragedy has produced an arguably obsessed serial poster out to wound the survivors. Many well meaning people did not understand or agree with the issues pursuant to the PSDRS benefits. Ms. Burke’s comments on this matter demonstrate that whatever concerns she has aired on Yarnell, is accompanied by a rather disturbing private agenda.
Reply to Noel Breen post on April 19, 2015 at 3:58 am
>> Noel Breen says…
>>
>> After reading the latest installments noted above, it seems
>> that this tragedy has produced an arguably obsessed serial
>> poster out to wound the survivors.
From what I can tell… this person seems to comment ( at length ) on EVERY article that the Prescott Daily Courier publishes… but yes… she seems to be SURE to always have some ‘didactic’ comment at the ready for anything related to the City Council or the Granite Mountain related articles.
Sometimes I can’t event tell, by the end of her comment, what point she is even TRYING to make.
She is also very often “almost right” ( but not quite ) with her “For your information” style posts… which can be very confusing.
That, …. along with routinely spewing misinformation somewhere within the majority of her analyses.
One of the worst social media allowances to ever be foisted upon the rest of us was facebook users who post on other sites being designated as “Top Commenters”.
It would be ok if they accepted it for what it really was (a designation for reaching a certain number of over-all posts), but too many of these people (her especially) seem to think it’s some sort of award for their in-depth, knowledgeable, and Pulitzer-worthy commentary, fostering a vicious cycle which never ends and only gets worse over time.
Yeah, she’s a real …………
I’ve actually increadingly had the feeling she’s been reading us. Just enough to dig up enough “facts” to make herself sound like she knows what she’s talking about.
Hey, Noel!!
I live in Albuquerque and went to Prescott College.
Maybe coffee sometime?
Correction for above.
This June 30, 2015 will only be the SECOND anniversary of the Yarnell Hill Fire tragedy, not the THIRD as stated above.
The actual Prescott Daily Courier article has this TYPO as well.
So the paragraph above should have read like this…
And YES… ( the land auction ) will be the actual morning of the SECOND anniversary of the tragedy itself… right in the same spot where they held last year’s ‘memorial’ service and will probably do so again this year.
Oh…and one more thing. Does anybody else see the irony (and that word is SO insufficient in this case) in that ADOSH, who I think we can all agree are the heroes of this story, found that one of primary reasons the Granite Mountain Hotshots died was because the fire team put too much emphasis on protecting property in and around Yarnell and now, those very same landowners will not grant access across their little slices of heaven to enable the public to get to the deployment site? I mean….really???
Does anybody have any questions as to why my plan back in the day would have been to drop back to the next drainage and backfire the entire fucking valley? And failing that…I would have found myself a soft patch of dirt, folded my gloves in half, put them on the top of my hardhat and then placed my head on the gloves and I would have truly enjoyed mother nature’s grand show. I would have watched that entire valley burn and I would never have left the black or broke a sweat.
And I was raised and excelled in a hyper hotshot program on steroids that rewarded those who only followed some of the rules some of the time and our motto was, FIGHT FIRE AGRESSIVELY…but provide for safety first. The actions of the GMHS on the Yarnell Hill Fire would have pegged my “oh…fuck…me…here we go” O’Meter!
I am starting to think the actions of the GMHS were such an anomaly…such an outlier…such a one time only…that the only lesson that can learned from this fire was the one the city of Prescott has already learned…the Granite Mountain Hotshots were a blueprint for disaster…thank God?
But none of that changes how much I grieve for all of them, especially the 18 who didn’t have a vote in what course of action they took. And yes…I am including McDonough on that list. That young man needs some guidance so he can start to turn his life around, I’m afraid this is going to get worse before it get’s better and it’s never going to get much better.
P.S., There is a way to change the system, but the way the GMHS families are going about it will not make any difference or change anything.
And for you old timers out there, the hyper hotshot program on steroids I am talking about was of course…Bill Buck’s Mighty Coconino! You remember HIM don’t you? The Greatest Fire God that ever walked the Earth!
**
** ‘WRONGFUL DEATH’ LAWSUIT ATTORNEYS ASK FOR ANOTHER 30 DAYS
** TO REACH A ‘SETTLEMENT’
Well… sure enough… the “clock ran out” yesterday ( April 17, 2015 ) on that original 30 day extension that was asked for after the March 2 and 3 ‘global mediation’ talks failed in
the ‘wrongful death’ lawsuits.
The attorneys asked the District Court Judge on March 9 for a ’30 day extension’, and he granted that extension on March 17, 2015.
The Arizona Forestry attorneys then had 30 days ( until yesterday ) to reach a ‘settlement’ with the families of the deceased Granite Mountain Hotshots.
Yesterday… they issued the required ‘progress report’ to the Judge… and they are now asking for ANOTHER 30 days to reach a ‘settlement’.
This time, however, they are saying the reason they need more TIME has something to do with the shenanigans going on with the OTHER ‘case’… the “Arizona Forestry vs. ADOSH” proceedings.
The original ‘press release’ yesterday was from the “Associated Press” itself… so this story is obviously all over the MSM ( Mainstream Media ) today.
Here is just one place ( in Arizona ) that reprinted the “Associated Press” story…
NEWS 4 – TUCSON – KVOA
Article Title: Settlement talks ongoing in Yarnell wrongful death case
Published: Apr 17, 2015 3:06 PM CDT by The Associate Press
http://www.kvoa.com/story/28832980/settlement-talks-ongoing-in-yarnell-wrongful-death-case
From the article…
———————————————————————————
PHOENIX (AP) – Parties in a wrongful-death lawsuit stemming from the 2013 Yarnell Hill Fire say they need more time to discuss a settlement.
Lawyers for the sides told a U.S. District Court judge on Friday that they’re working in good faith to resolve the case. They requested that it be put on hold until May 27.
The families of a dozen Granite Mountain Hotshots sued Arizona public agencies last year, seeking a definitive answer on what caused the deaths of 19 members of the crew. The lawsuit also seeks damages for funeral costs, pain and suffering, and lost income.
The lawyers say they expect to reconvene settlement talks next month. They say talks have been complicated by a separate but related case that imposed fines and citations on the state Forestry Division.
———————————————————————————
Something I noticed…
Unlike other previous reports ( even from the Associated Press ) about the ‘wrongful death’ lawsuits… they are now describing the actual PRIMARY GOAL of the lawsuits with one simple phrase…
“The families of a dozen Granite Mountain Hotshots sued Arizona public agencies last year, seeking a definitive answer on what caused the deaths of 19 members of the crew.”
In other words… even the MSM is now acknowledging what the families have said all along about these lawsuits.
The PRIMARY reason they were filed is because the families WANT TO KNOW THE TRUTH.
Given that fact… something tells me the ‘settlement’ issues are now focusing on all the new information that has been published lately and whether or not ( and WHEN and HOW ) Brendan McDonough will be compelled to ‘testify’.
The new 30 day extension could be ALL about whether or not Brendan is going to ever be ‘deposed’… or NOT.
Something also tells me that if Brendan’s therapist continues to assert that he NOT ‘testify’ about what he knows… it’s going to take MORE than just 30 days to ‘work that out’.
Followup…
If the ‘gloves come off’ now and ANY of these lawyers now want to see PROOF that Brendan really does have PTSD… and that his ‘therapist’ alone should be able to continue to ‘control’ the court calendar and the court proceedings in BOTH of the pending ‘cases’…
…that alone could take more than 30 days.
If the (supposed) PTSD diagnosis remains the ‘stumbling block’ to even getting a simple behind-closed-doors under-oath deposition out of Brendan… then someone is going to start requesting that the various Judges involved here ‘subpoena’ Brendan’s medical records… or get some kind of ‘sworn statement’ from the therapist.
Even that won’t all be able to ‘go down’ in less than 30 days.
WTKTT,
A long time ago you described how to search this site for previous comments. I was successful in doing so right after that, but now I seem to have forgotten the process because I am unable complete a search.
Could you please re-describe that process.
Also, does it have to be Chapter specific?
Thanks
** THE TEXT FILE WAY
What I have been doing all along is that every time a certain ‘Chapter’ of this ongoing discussion closes and a new one is started… I call up the one that just closed and I save the entire thing as a TEXT file to my hard drive.
I than ADD that ‘new’ ( finished ) Chapter TEXT file to the bottom of an ongoing HUGE ‘Master’ text file that contains ALL of the ‘finished’ Chapters.
When I want to go find something in a previous Chapter… I am them only dealing with ONE ‘Master’ document and I just use ‘Notepad’ to call it up and search through the whole thing in one swell foop.
** THE GOOGLE WAY
Every single ‘Chapter’ of this forum is now indexed PUBLICLY by Google.
You can tell Google to narrow the search down to only pages at InvestigativeMEDIA, and only pages that have the word ‘Chapter’ in them, which pretty much narrows the search down to ONLY all the ‘Chapters’ of this ongoing discussion.
Just go to http://www.google.com
In Google’s SEARCH input bar… just type this…
site:www.investigativemedia.com Chapter TTWARE
Google will come back with links to every single “Chapter” of this forum where the keyword TTWARE appears.
To narrow down the search… just keep adding ‘words’ to the end like this…
site:www.investigativemedia.com Chapter TTWARE dial it back
Google will then return only the ‘hits’ that have all four of those words in them… such as a link to “Chapter VIII” when you were telling me to “dial it back” some.
If you remember an ‘exact phrase’ that you are looking for… just add it to the end of your query but make sure the whole phrase in in QUOTATION MARKS… like this…
site:www.investigativemedia.com Chapter TTWARE “I do my best to keep up”
Google will then return only ONE hit… and it’s for “Chapter V ( FIVE )” when you actually said that in one of your comments.
NOTE: You COULD leave that first word ‘Chapter’ out of your search query… but then you will also get ‘hits’ to pages at InvestigativeMEDIA that aren’t ‘Chapters’ of this forum.
Way over my head Marti….
Keep up the good work….
Thanks, WTKTT
Forgot to add… don’t forget that ‘Google’ searches are case insensitive.
In other words… you could do a query like this…
site:www.investigativemedia.com Chapter TTWARE “I do my best to keep up”
OR it could be this…
site:www.investigativemedia.com Chapter ttware “I DO my BEST to KEEP up”
…and the result will be the SAME.
Google will return only ONE search ‘hit’… and it will be a link to “Chapter V (FIVE)” of this ongoing discussion where you actually said that in one of your comments.
Also forgot to add…
Obviously the ‘Google’ approach will produce links to the ‘Chapters’ of this discussion where what you are searching for might be on that page… but these will just be ‘jumplinks’ to the ‘Chapter’ pages themselves.
You will still need to click the link… and THEN use the “Find Text in the Page” menu option in your browser to ‘Find’ the comment inside that page itself.
That’s why I still prefer the ‘one ‘Master’ TEXT file option.
Regarding this whole “Motion to Dismiss” thingy.
I don’t really have the time to cite this chapter, verse, and page, and also I’m looking at the pdf downloaded instead of the one on the website, because it’s really too hard to navigate it on the website, but…….
The really INTERESTING stuff is is the BIG file, the “2015_03 Updated 04.03.15.pdf”
I hadn’t fortified myself to download and look at that HUGE file until this afternoon.
—————————————-
The BIG file:
https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B6N47Z5CNR-CUDZqdGhpWndxekE/edit
—————————————–
The only reason it’s so BIG is because it contains each of ASFD’s two “Motions to Dismiss” (the two parts of the citation), along with attaching what looks like ALL of the SAIT Report and a bunch of the ADOSH documentation to EACH one of these Motions.
My terminology might get a bit fuzzy here, because I don’t hold all these legal things in my head. And I’m kind of thinking this out as I go along. But here’s whats interesting.
Included in the middle all of this back and forth (on the pdf’s e-page 29) is an April 16, 2014 letter from Administrative Law Judge Joseph L. Moore, to ASDF’s lawyers stating:
“Recognizing that the Complainant has expressly declined to respond to Respondent’s “Motion for Summary Judgment,” filed April 10, 2014, I hereby deny the motion.
Not only is there no mechanism for summary adjudication of issues in these proceedings, but, even if there were, under any reasonable construct,whether or not there was a “willful” violation would clearly appear to involve a question of fact.”
The bottom of this letter from 2014 is stamped 15MAR25, so I’m assuming it is placed in the middle of all these back-and-forths means it has something to do with them.
This letter is actually included as Exhibit 1 in a letter from ICA Lawyer “ADOSH’S RESPONSE TO STATE FORESTRY’S TWO MOTIONS TO
DISMISS” (on pdf e-page 25), that begins by saying:
“Complainant, the Division of Occupational Safety and Health of the Industrial Commission of Arizona (“ADOSH”), hereby responds to Respondent State Forestry’s motions to dismiss Citation 1 Item 1(b) and (c). State Forestry’s motions — unsupported by applicable legal authority and not allowed in this forum — are meritless and should be denied, stricken and returned to the law firm which filed them.
Simply put, the Industrial Commission rules governing this ADOSH proceeding contain no mechanism for summary adjudication of issues. See A.A.C. R20-5-801 et seq. This forum has no equivalent of state or federal court’s Civil Rule 12(b) (motion to dismiss) or Civil Rule (summary judgment). State Forestry fails to point to any authority that would require the ALJ to hear and determine the equivalent of a Civil Rule 12(b) or Civil Rule 56 motion prior to giving the parties the opportunity to develop a factual record at hearing, and as State Forestry’s counsel is aware, none exists. State Forestry’ s legal and factual arguments should be made at the hearing, based on the facts developed and presented there.
The law firm which represents State Forestry and filed these motions to dismiss is well aware that no mechanism exists for summary adjudication in this forum. In the pending ADOSHv. Guthrie General matter (Inspection No. R1538-317023067), in which this same law firm represents Respondent Guthrie General, the ALJ issued an order on April 16, 2014 denying Guthrie General’s motion for summary judgment, noting inter alia that “there is no mechanism for summary adjudication of issues in these proceedings ….” See April 16, 2014 Order (attached as Exhibit 1). Likewise, in ADOSH v. Gehan Homes (Inspection No. H1793-317322709), this same law firm’ s numerous motions for dismissal and summary adjudication were denied in 2014 after ADOSH’ s counsel pointed out the lack of a procedural mechanism for summary adjudication in this forum. See Inspection No. H1793-317322709 (motions and orders in April and May of 2014).
Given the above, no good faith basis exists for the filing of motions to dismiss in this matter as well, wasting not just state taxpayers’ money but also wasting the ALJ’s and ADOSH’ s time by being forced to address and respond to motions which counsel for State Forestry knows this forum does not allow. These massive and improper motions (approximately four inches thick in total) should be denied, stricken and returned to the law firm.”
At which point, in order to follow this narrative, you have to jump to the top of the pdf, to e-page 1. Which is a letter from Cavanagh Law Firm to Judge Mosesso, stating:
“The recent documents filed in the case prompt ASFD to suggest that the most orderly and appropriate way for the Tribunal to deal with this case is for the Tribunal to use the authority and discretion conferred upon it by the Arizona Administrative Code to rule that the Arizona Rules of Civil Procedure should be applied to this matter.
The Arizona Administrative Code fully authorizes this Tribunal to apply the Rules of Civil Procedure. A.A.C. R20-5-644(A)(1) allows the Tribunal to conduct proceedings for “simplification of the issues.” A.A.C. R20-5-644(A)(5) allows the Tribunal to decide “other matters as may tend to expedite the disposition of the proceeding and to assure a just conclusion thereof.””
Along with a bunch of other stuff.
BELOW this letter (sometimes it’s really hard to pick your way through this stuff and make any sense of the timing), on pdf e-page 6, is the following from the ICA lawyer, “ERRATA TO ADOSH’S RESPONSE
TO STATE FORESTRY’S TWO MOTIONS TO DISMISS,” stamped 15March26.
It says:
“Complainant, the Division of Occupational Safety and Health of the Industrial
20 Commission of Arizona (“ADOSH”), files this Errata to its March 25, 2015 Response to State Forestry’s Two Motions to Dismiss. This Errata follows receipt of State Forestry’s letter, dated March 26, 2015, in which State Forestry urges the ALJ to rely upon “R20-5-644(A)(1)” and “R20-5-644(A)(5)” as ostensible authority for State Forestry’s motions to dismiss. State Forestry’s reliance upon these rules is misplaced, as these particular rules were repealed in 2001. (See attached.) The current Arizona Administrative Code rules governing this forum are located in A.A.C. R20-5-801 et seq., and do not provide for summary adjudication.”
So, I guess I just cited chapter, verse, and page.
Basically, as it appears to me, the gist of what is going on here is that what ADOSH is saying, and I think the judge agrees with, is that this whole conflict HAS to be disputed, ironed out, picked apart, put back together in the HEARING (according to the law), and not in this thingy that ASDF is repeatedly attempting to concoct, in various and sundry ways.
The good tax-paying citizens of the State of Arizona (whether it’s Great or not) ought to be being fully informed (Hello AZCentral???) of all of their oh-so-precious DOLLARS that the Arizona State Department of Forestry is, relatively uncontrollably, BURNING (while everybody is freaking out about those EXPENSIVE PENSIONS), on their behalf and out of their pockets, for all this (probably ultimately FUTILE, all things considered) legal obfuscation.
Wait, wait, WHERE again was it that ASDF wasted dollars doing various futile things related to a certain fire that they seem to be wasting even more dollars again on, via this whole GAME???
Sigh. I just can’t help but wonder, how it could POSSIBLY be — that this kind of expensive obfuscating is taught in Law School.
What could POSSIBLY make me think of THAT?
So none of this “Motions to Dismiss” thingy actually has, AT THIS TIME, ANYTHING to do with ASDF’s BOGUS claim that Brendan left his lookout location in an orderly PLANNED fashion, or that, because there were no fire-fighters “assigned” to Division Z, there were NO fire-fighters whose LIVES WERE THREATENED by the mismanagement IN Division Z.
It has more to do with them using all of that FICTION in order to get their “Motions to Dismiss” taken seriously by the Judge, on the basis of a statute that NO LONGER EXISTS and in a way that they have already tried doing before and already know is not LEGITIMATE.
Given what I wrote above, I would really like to see an accounting of how much MONEY this LEGAL GAME is racking up, especially since it still has, obviously, a LONG LONG LONG LONG way to go.
And, yeah, compared to THIS RACKET, I’d LOVE to get paid to the same hourly tune, for all the hours that, THANK YOU SONNY I REALLY APPRECIATE WHAT YOU SAID, we have put into this “Campfire” of “Citizen Investigators” with all our acknowledged warts and such.
And, yes, I know some really AWESOME LAWYERS. But these aren’t those. Not even close.
This whole thing is just a FRIGGIN RACKET.
OK, End of rant. This thingy just really p*sses me off.
Correction.
“It has more to do with them using all of that FICTION in order to get their “Motions to Dismiss” taken seriously by the Judge, on the basis of a statute that NO LONGER EXISTS and in a way that they have already tried doing before and already know is not LEGITIMATE.”
Should read:
“It has more to do with them using all of that FICTION in order to get their “Motions to Dismiss” taken seriously by the Judge, on the basis of a statute that NO LONGER EXISTS and in a way that THEIR LAWYERS have already tried doing before and already know is not LEGITIMATE.”
Marti… yes… you pretty much nailed it.
It really chaps the ‘Arizona Forestry’ lawyers’ asses that this is NOT a ‘regular’ civil court case proceeding and so a lot of their ‘bag ‘o tricks’ just won’t work.
It chaps them so much they are actually now ( in even the latest documents ) trying to tell ALJ Judge Michael Mosesso what his JOB is… and how he’s supposed to be doing it.
It would not surprise me at all if a real nasty-gram slap-down comes back from the desk of Judge Michael Mosesso following this latest round of “here’s how we think you should do your job” from these ( arrogant ) Arizona Forestry lawyers.
Keep in mind that these guys/gals are persistent enough in trying to get their way here that they have NOW stooped to mentioning ( in what they KNEW would be a PUBLIC document ) that the key witness in the case has been officially diagnosed with PTSD and is currently undergoing ‘treatment’ for it with an actual ‘therapist’.
The ONLY reason they mentioned that was to try and get Mosseso to go along with their motion to dismiss that ADOSH Citation 1 – Item 1(b) that pertains to Brendan.
They now are specifically telling Judge Mosesso…
—————————————————————-
As discussed in the Motion to Delete Citation 1, Item 1(b), however, ADOSH’S
interviews of Mr. McDonough contradict the allegations in Citation 1, Item 1(b).
In addition, considering the Motion to Delete Citation 1, Item 1(b) will ensure
that Mr. McDonough is not forced to recount the events surrounding the Fire
more than necessary.
—————————————————————-
Sounds like a THREAT, doesn’t it?
That’s because it IS.
They have just finished telling the Judge that poor, poor Brendan has PTSD and that’s why his therapist thought that having to testify to anything back on February 26, 2015 would have been “not good for poor, poor Brendan’… and now just paragraphs later they are flat-out threatening the Judge that if he doesn’t rule in THEIR favor on this… they are going to FORCE him to the stand to go over and over all of this AGAIN… and if that means the worsening of poor, poor Brendan’s medical condition… it will all be because Judge Mosesso was the ‘bastard’ who wouldn’t give THEM what they wanted.
I knew this wasn’t going to be ‘pretty’… but the arrogance and thoughtlessness and carelessness and unprofessionalism of these Arizona Forestry attorneys is even astounding me.
And it’s probably going to get WORSE.
I actually do believe that this recent ‘ploy’ on the part of the Arizona Forestry lawyers to try and FORCE Judge Mosesso to grant at least one of the their ‘motions to dismiss’ regarding Item 1(b) might even be a serious violation of the HIPPA laws… and they may be subject to some serious sanctions because of it.
Revealing the details of someone’s private medical condition in a public document just to try and use that as a ‘card’ you are playing in some stupid lawyer-poker-game is ‘off the reservation’.
Since I have been writing this whole thing, I haven’t had time to read what you wrote just down below, but I’ve been, otherwise, following all that you have been writing.
THIS:
“Revealing the details of someone’s private medical condition in a public document just to try and use that as a ‘card’ you are playing in some stupid lawyer-poker-game is ‘off the reservation’.”
Exactly. It seems to me that EVERYTHING they are doing is some version of “off the reservation.”
(And not to mention it, but, all things considered, it appears that the Southwest may be heading into a worse than last year to the point of SERIOUS wildfire season, with all that THAT could entail)
One thing that caught my curiosity, also, in all of this (including that this whole “revelation” by ASDF is a HIPPA violation), was that there is no EVIDENCE submitted (as long as they were, in violation of HIPPA, doing this anyway) supplied as to any documentation of what this therapist supposedly indicated.
It’s all just something Counsel is positing. Via WHAT? Who knows?????
One of the things I thought about as I read some of the things you wrote downstream, when you were wondering WHO might this “therapist” be, and why would any therapist be going along to get along, or whatever.
I was just sitting back, thinking about some of my own experiences.
Once upon a time, awhile ago, for five years, I was the “Outreach Minister” for the New Mexico Conference of Churches Affordable Housing Program.
It was my job to counsel people living in the apartments that the Conference owned. Sometimes I did that work between a serious rock and a serious hard place.
I was hired to do that job because, in the eyes of my mentor/boss, I was a “survivor.”
In order to do that job, I had to really work, and listen, and be, relatively speaking, non-judgemental, and gain the trust of people who were often dealing with all kinds of PSTD and other kinds of pressures. I worked very hard, and sensitively, in order to do that.
On the other side of the coin, I was also interacting with (and, to some extent, representing) the MANAGEMENT of that whole operation. Who wasn’t always all that happy with residents who were having all kinds of problems that created HASSLES for the management.
That’s what I mean by the rocks and the hard places.
I decided, in the course of doing what I was doing, that the well-being of my clients (the residents) was more important to my work than the well-being of the Management. It wasn’t by a HUGE ratio, but it was by a significant one. That ratio eventually got me fired.
Rocks and hard places.
I sat back a little bit earlier today and thought about the possibility that a therapist COULD, actually, based on my experience, determine (without being aligned with anything having to do with all the shenanigans we see via the ASFD and their lawyers) that it could be a seriously destructive thing for Brendan to, at this time, be deposed, even in a “private” deposition, GIVEN……..
…….ALL the obvious VULTURES that are flying around all of this thingy.
I could easily imagine myself realizing that, given all the PTSD and Surviver Guilt and High Profile Nature of all of this, I would want to help Brendan recover and re-re-cover and re-re-re-cover what he had inside his mind, given all the trauma and post-experience-publicized narratives that were/are flying all around his consciousness.
And that that could, actually, take some TiME.
I could SERIOUSLY imagine myself thinking that having, at this time, my client, be interrogated by a lawyer/lawyers, especially given these AGENDAS they are SERVING (as witnessed by the shenanigans above), could definitely be destructive to both my client’s ability to actually accurately re-member the deep and conflicted and delicate truth that is residing inside his mind and, thus, be able to present that truth to the families and fire-fighters who are in need of it.
So, yes, I can understand how a legitimate independent therapist could advise his Counsel that, all things considered, deposing Brendan at this time, and in this context, could be more harmful to him than useful for getting at the necessary truth.
I’m not saying that’s what’s going on.
I’m just saying I can see how it could be possible that that could be, at least in part, what’s going on.
>> Marti said…
>>
>> So, yes, I can understand how a legitimate independent
>> therapist could advise his Counsel that, all things
>> considered, deposing Brendan at this time, and in this
>> context, could be more harmful to him than useful for
>> getting at the necessary truth.
>>
>> I’m not saying that’s what’s going on.
>>
>> I’m just saying I can see how it could be possible that
>> that could be, at least in part, what’s going on.
Yes. It could.
I actually HOPE ( with all my fingers and toes crossed ) that this ‘therapist’ really is ‘independent’ and not ‘affiliated’ with any agency that has the word ‘Forestry’ or ‘Fire’ in its title… and that Brendan’s well-being and welfare is the ONLY consideration as to what treatment or courses of action are taken.
But at the same time… this is a unique set of circumstances in which Brendan has allowed himself to become ‘entangled’.
There are COURT cases that are ACTIVE and the ‘calendars’ are rolling.
He is the KEY WITNESS in those ‘cases’.
I don’t know if his ‘therapist’ has any experience his/herself with something like this… but part of his ‘treatment’ IS going to have to include handling any number of legitimate legal attempts to get him to ‘testify’ to things that he seems to know.
And yes… at some point here… one of the things that also MUST happen is that this ‘therapist’ ( or someone ) IS going to have to PROVE that the PTSD diagnosis is ‘for real’ and not just someone’s OPINION.
If it CONTINUES to seriously influence the court proceedings ( like it already has ) then at some point it can’t just be a lot of “taking someone’s word for it”. It will have to be PROVEN.
Brendan himself can/should be ‘shielded’ from that process…
but it is going to have to happen if this supposed ‘diagnosis’ continues to seriously influence the court proceedings.
Bottom line here is that since the Arizona Forestry lawyers just basically THREATENED Judge Mosesso with putting Brendan ‘on the stand’ if they don’t ‘get what they want’ from the Judge… even just over the Citation 1 – Item 1(b) thing… and there is already evidence that the ‘therapist’ didn’t even like the idea of a closed-door controlled ‘despostion’…
…then that therapist REALLY isn’t going to like it when all this starts to go to trial and Arizona Forestry makes good on its THREAT and wants to bring Brendan to the ‘stand’ in a PUBLIC hearing… complete with ( you can be sure ) CNN News Cameras.
It’s a mess.
Whatever it takes… I think the ‘therapist’ should realize that a closed-door, controlled deposition with no TV Cameras ( like what was supposed to happen back on February 26 ) is by far the ‘better option’ for his/her client.
Bottom line… I really do seriously hope this is all being handled by REAL professionals who DO know what they are doing.
It would be absolutely beyond tragic if this stupid Yarnell Hill Fire claims yet another victim… and I think you know what I mean.
By the way… see the SIDENOTE below with the ‘411 skinny’ in it regarding a possible HIPPA violation on the part of the Arizona Forestry lawyers.
As it turns out… since Brendan’s lawyer himself chose to SHARE that information with the Arizona Forestry lawyers… then it is ( legally speaking ) considered ‘fair game’.
Since it was being offered as the actual REASON why he and his client were ‘backing away’ from a non-subpoenaed deposition… then that information immediately entered the ‘relevant to the proceedings’ category.
Brendan’s lawyer did NOT have to share that kind of SPECIFIC medical information with anyone ( AZF and ADOSH Lawyers included ) in order to just ‘back away’ from that non-subpoena based deposition…
…but he DID.
Since he didn’t really have to ( but DID )… it would almost appear that it was a conscious CHOICE on his part to do so… at that time… and felt it was ‘in the best interests of his client’ to get that information ‘on the table’.
Sympathy? Leverage? Some other tactical advantage?
Who knows.
I just sincerely hope Brendan himself was consenting to this, and AWARE, that the minute that information left his Lawyers mouth it WOULD then become ‘Public information’.
I would hate to think Brendan himself has been ‘blind-sided’ by his actual specific medical information ‘going PUBLIC’ if he didn’t really want it to.
I’m agreeing with what you are saying.
And, as I am imagining myself being Brendan’s “therapist/counselor” — which is stretching it, but I was involved in some seriously SENSITIVE things — I would know, as a professional, that this couldn’t be delayed forever and that Brendan would, eventually, have to take some kind of witness stand and be deposed under oath.
My goal would be to help him REMEMBER. Both for his own sake and for what was eventually facing him. And for his responsibility, as an adult, to face that.
And I would, RIGHT NOW, be seriously engaged in trying to do that, even as I may have told his counsel that he was not quite in a mind-frame to do that RIGHT NOW.
As someone who has been involved in somewhat similar situations, I’m seeing this as a fairly intense one.
More extreme behavior WILDFIRE still burning.
You wrote:
“Since he didn’t really have to ( but DID )… it would almost appear that it was a conscious CHOICE on his part to do so… at that time… and felt it was ‘in the best interests of his client’ to get that information ‘on the table’.
Sympathy? Leverage? Some other tactical advantage?
Who knows.”
I think it could have been in consultation with his “therapist” who thought that that February deposition was not in the best interest of either Brendan or the truth.
There are two options.
A “private” deposition that, already, the “vulture” lawyers representing ASDF are trying to use repealed statutes to defend NOT deposing him vis-a-vis his having been at mortal risk in his lookout situation — and, so how trustworthy is THAT????
versus
A public deposition in what looks to be, at this point, all things considered, an actual public trial — given the apparent collapse of the Mediation.
To me, as a therapist/counselor, all things considered, I’d say LET’S BUY TIME, therefore go for the public deposition, even with the cameras rolling.
I don’t think Brendan’s afraid of the cameras, at this point, all things considered.
I know you have said that the evidence we have demonstrates that Brendan at least wanted to GET THIS TRUTH off his chest.
And I agree with that.
But I think some of that may be CONFLICTED, vis a vis the whole issue of Survivor Guilt, which can be a HUGE struggle.
My own Survival Guilt complex took me decades to even recognize, much less deal with. But I’m guessing whoever is counseling Brendan (I hope) is more up on that in 2015.
But I really think that’s a factor, and a difficult one.
So what I’m seeing (and I could be way inaccurate) at this moment is a BUYING OF TIME, in order to help Brendan work at articulating what he actually heard/experienced, given all the emotional trauma he naturally experienced, compounded by all the media hype, and all the circulating narratives that, understandably, may have shaped (even possibly inaccurately) his understanding of what actually happened.
Which leads me to my next thought.
Not only would I really like to know what is happening regarding the cash register attached to this whole legal racket thingy…..
I would also like to really know WHO EXACTLY in the Arizona State Department of Forestry is ORCHESTRATING this whole RACKET.
Through all of this, I haven’t been one to say that anybody involved in this fire should have been fired. Because I have, all along tried to LOOK UP. I think this fire was, mostly, mismanaged from the TOP. And everything else is a consequence of that.
Including, in the context of that total mismanagement, the fatal decisions of a crew left out on a ridge to do WHATEVER, while a fire was (as forecasted) picking itself up and turning itself around and causing its FORECASTED chaos, while nobody was much paying attention to that crew, given all the CHAOS that they were all, at the last minute, dealing with.
I recently watched a set of videos from a recent symposium in Albuquerque dealing with how to deal with SMOKE, especially on prescribed fires. SMOKE is a HUGE issue that has to be dealt with when doing the prescribed burns that really really need to be done.
One of the presenters was Roy Hall. It became clear to me that he is regarded with massive respect here in the Southwest. A lot of other presenters who were describing how they deal with the very real issues involved in bringing fire back into the landscape were trained by him and really honor his mentorship.
He spoke, with palpable pain, both in his voice and demeanor, of FAILURE. And everybody, I’m sure, knew what he was talking about. He was relating that to the FEAR that EVERYBODY who is doing the hard. but necessary, work of bringing fire back into the southwestern landscape, has to deal with.
There’s always that possibility that………..
I actually don’t blame what happened on Roy Hall.
Given this “Motion to Dismiss” game-racket thingy, and my ongoing questions about how, and by whom, it was determined (without doing the REQUIRED Escaped Fire Analysis) that deploying a Type 2 Short Team (scattered around Arizona), instead of the Type 2 Full Team (most of whose members including its IC were right there an hour away in Prescott) was, all things considered, an appropriate decision to make, given the potential consequences of what this fire could do.
I really think someone UP THE CHAIN in Phoenix is desperately, no matter what the cost, attempting to cover their personal rear end for all of this.
Reply to Marti Reed post on April 17, 2015 at 9:13 pm
>> Marti said…
>>
>> I would also like to really know WHO EXACTLY in the
>> Arizona State Department of Forestry is ORCHESTRATING
>> this whole RACKET.
It’s a good question.
Forgetting the ‘wrongful death’ lawsuits for a moment… just the ‘billable hours’ that have gone down for the “Arizona Forestry vs. ADOSH” thing alone have probably ALREADY exceeded the actual total amounts of the Citations themselves ( only $559,000 dollars… including all 19 lump sum payments of a lousy $23,000 to each of the 19 families ).
And they aren’t even near halfway done with this.
By the time even just the “Arizona Forestry vs. ADOSH” thing is over… the “billable hours’ could be in excess of 4 or 5 times the actual FULL amounts of the ADOSH ‘fines’ themselves.
So for SOMEONE there in ‘Arizona Forestry’… it ain’t about the stupid ‘fines’. That’s fer sure.
It’s more about admitting any ‘guilt’ and how that’s gonna swing the cash register into the stratosphere in the OTHER ‘cases’ if they don’t find a way to ‘settle’ the wrongful death suits.
If the ‘wrongful death’ lawsuits go to a jury… the actual amounts awarded COULD make the lousy $559,000 in ADOSH fines look like lunch money.
We are simply watching a team of attorneys who work for the State of Arizona doing what they HAVE to do, here.
They HAVE to try and defeat the ADOSH findings and somehow mitigate Arizona Forestry’s negligence and responsibility in this incident… or they are going to get KILLED in the wrongful death lawsuits monetary awards phase of that proceeding.
They KNOW that.
>> Marti also said…
>>
>> I really think someone UP THE CHAIN in Phoenix is
>> desperately, no matter what the cost, attempting to
>> cover their personal rear end for all of this.
There was never any real reason given why State Forester Scott Hunt was ‘replaced’. Was it really his own choosing?… or was HE just someone else that needed to be ‘thrown under the bus’?
If he was ‘forced out’… it’s a pretty short list as to WHO would have been able to perform THAT ‘hit’ at that level of governance.
This fire “continues to burn”… and yes… some people might still be making sure they have their Nomex on and their sleeves rolled up.
** REGARDING HIPPA
SIDENOTE: The 411 ‘skinny’ on whether or not the Arizona Forestry lawyers just committed any HIPPA violations by plastering Brendan’s medical status and condition all over a stupid ‘motion to dismiss’ filing is pretty much as follows…
If the medical information that came ‘into their possession’ was freely supplied by the source and it DOES pertain to ‘the case’… there really is no HIPPA violation.
In this instance… I’m afraid it looks more like Brendan’s lawyer David Shapiro that ‘dropped the ball’.
It was Brendan’s lawyer who had the responsibility here to make sure Brendan’s medical status and information remained ‘private’ and OUT of the case files… if that is what Brendan wished.
By freely admitting to the lawyers ( for either side ) in the case that Brendan has PTSD and that is why they were ‘backing out’ of a pre-scheduled deposition… that pretty much made that information ‘fair game’ at that point.
Backing out of a pre-scheduled deposition is definitely ‘relevant to the case proceedings’ and so ( therefore ) is the REASON why that was done.
Brendan’s lawyer did NOT have to share his client’s actual ( specific ) medical condition or information in order to just ‘back away’ from a non-subpoenaed deposition…
…but he DID.
It’s still pretty despicable that the Arizona Forestry lawyers would now be consciously plastering that obviously private information all over their PUBLICLY available silly ‘motions to dismiss’ crap just to try and convince the Judge to give them what they want… but there it is.
Regardless of choices that Brendan’s lawyer has made about what to ‘share’ about his client’s medical condition without even a subpoena in place… there were/are other ‘graceful’ ways for the lawyers to inform the Judge in the case about how this is affecting a ‘key witness’ in the case and is ability to grant a non-subpoenaed deposition.
You have to wonder.
Since there was no reason that Mr. David Shapiro really HAD to share his own client’s PTSD diagnosis and treatment in order to just ‘back away’ from that non-subpoenaed deposition…
…you almost have to believe it was a conscious CHOICE on his part to put that medical information ‘on the table’ at this point in the proceedings and that it really was ( in his mind ) in the ‘best interests of his client’ to do so.
Leverage? Sympathy? Some other tactical advantage?
Who knows.
I surely hope that Brendan himself knew that information was going to ‘go public’ the minute it left Shapiro’s mouth… and that Brendan himself isn’t now ‘blind-sided’ by it appearing in PUBLIC documents.
Whoops… typo up above.
Should have been…
This fire “continues to burn”… and yes… some people might still be making sure they have their Nomex on and their sleeves rolled ALL THE WAY DOWN.
OK. So I’m sitting here thinking about this, given how I might have been trying to handle this regarding my client, as a therapist/counselor/minister/whatever.
I’m “thinking out loud” here. It may be a complete failure.
I have determined that, all things considered, my client is not ready to be “deposed” by a bunch of lawyers-with-agendas-with-millions-of-dollars-at-stake.
(Who are representing a State Agency who really really really want that deposition so they can use it to bolster their case that something Brendan heard may indicate that that State Agency really is not at fault because some combination of Eric/Jesse made the decision, against all odds, to order/lead the crew into a situation that was non-survivable. Even though, all things considered, legally speaking, that narrative could actually turn around and bite them in the butt, because Eric was, as a Division Superintendent, part of the Incident Management Team, thus representing Arizona Department of Forestry).
Whether or not I know all of the above permutations, I communicate to my client’s lawyer. that I don’t believe my client is ready to be deposed in this way, given the circumstances.
My client’s lawyer communicates that to the lawyers representing ASDF. Without any supporting documentation from me (or even maybe with, but that documentation isn’t included in these files. Maybe because of HIPPA?)
My client’s lawyer doesn’t actually have to say that to the lawyers representing ASDF, but he does. He’s merely trying to communicate why his client is backing out of his scheduled deposition (which may have been a supreme mistake, given what happens next).
The lawyers representing ASDF then decide (in the midst of bits and pieces of this story going viral, via a media hit orchestrated by those same ASDF lawyers in order to make public that Brendan has some stuff to say that may implicate Eric/Jesse in the deaths of the GMHS)………..
……to use Brendan’s PTSD/Whatever status to try to hardcore PRESSURE the Judge on the ADOSH vs ASDF case to drop the citation against them regarding Brendan’s having been put at mortal risk on that fire (via a totally BOGUS narrative), citing a statute that was repealed in 2001 (which they know about).
So now I’m contemplating the fact that they have, at least up to now, REALLY wanted Brendan’s deposition, but NOW they really DON’T want whatever he might say about his OWN LIFE being put in mortal danger, so far so as to claiming that under a statute that they know has been repealed, THAT part of his story should be dealt with……DIFFERENTLY, i.e, being dismissed, because right now they are claiming that that wasn’t the case.
So that’s what I’m seeing right now. i could be mistaken, and I am, as I have always said I am, open to being corrected.
Yikes. Is all I have to say.
OK. After writing all of that I have to end my night by posting this. In honor of all the wildland fire-fighters who go out there and actually do the job, even tho some of the agencies that are their Overhead may not be all that committed to their actual safety while doing so.
Navajo Hotshots 2012 Fire Season
https://youtu.be/njk_uHhRmgQ?list=PLTErVrHH6uJgGEPDQR8QgrwM8D9gth1c6
Last night I wandered over to my local Blakes LottaBurger to get one of the best green chile cheeseburgers crafted in these United States.
It just so happened there was an Albuquerque Fire Department crew gathered there, also.
As I sat down and waited for my green chile cheeseburger to get made, I eavesdropped on their conversation.
They were talking about an up-coming wildland fire-fighting training event regarding fighting fires in our endangered Cottonwood Bosque that runs right up through the middle of Albuquerque..
They were talking about the sand-table part of it, about the plastic engines and the ribbons that would be draped around it representing the fire. There was some joking around about that. And then they were talking about where various bunches of brush needed to be cleared/burned out.
I was sitting there trying to listen in while trying not to be obvious.
After my number got called, I went up and got my green chile cheeseburger, and then, as I walked out, I just said “Thank You” to them.
They said, “Thank you” back to me. Even though they had no friggin idea how much time I have invested in trying to understand what they do.
I just wish the lawyers involved in this game-racket we are discussing, and the who-ever in the ASDF is involved in this “Thingy”, cared as much for the actual fire-fighters as I decided to try to communicate to my fire-fighters, that I did last night.
Here’s Roy Hall’s talk:
Roy Hall – Fire, Smoke Repeat: Managing Smoke on the Edge of Tomorrow
“Published on Mar 3, 2015
On November 6-8, 2014, multiple stakeholders gathered to learn about, share and discuss smoke management issues related to wildland fire. The following video is a presentation that occurred during the event, “Wildland fire smoke in the air- What does it mean to ME?””
https://youtu.be/s1yK7Orq9Ws?list=PLTErVrHH6uJgGEPDQR8QgrwM8D9gth1c6
**
** ARIZONA FORESTRY’S ‘MOTIONS TO DISMISS’
** CERTAIN PARTS OF ADOSH CITATION 1
These ‘motions’ have been been discussed below already… but here’s sort of a ‘recap’ of what they are all about, according to the latest documents appearing on the PUBLIC ALJ Hearing File web page.
There are FOUR ‘sub-items’ listed under ADOSH’s ‘Citation 1’ that ( in total ) amount to a maximum $70,000 fine for a ‘Willful / Serious’ workplace violation.
The Arizona Attorney General’s Office lawyers who have been assigned to defend Arizona Forestry while they ‘contest’ the ADOSH findings are asking ALJ Judge Michael Mosseso to ‘Dismiss’ TWO of those FOUR sub-items under ‘Citation 1’.
Those TWO sub-items are…
Citation 1 – Item 1(b) – Regarding the near-entrapment of Brendan McDonough.
Citation 1 – Item 1(c) – Regarding near-entrapments in Harper Canyon / Youth Camp area(s).
The attorneys for Arizona Forestry say these particular ‘Citations’ are groundless, baseless, and that there is no evidence to support them, so they want the Judge to basically ‘throw them away’ before this legal proceeding even reaches the evidentiary hearing stage.
Just for the sake of completeness… here is the complete ADOSH ‘Citation 1’ text including sub-items (a), (b), (c) and (d)…
ADOSH Citation 1
———————————————————————————————-
Citation 1 – Item 1 – Type of Violation: Willful Serious
A.R.S. Section 23-403(A): The employer did not furnish to each of his employees employment and a place of employment which were free from recognized hazards that were causing or likely to cause death of serious physical harm to their employees, in that the employer implemented suppression strategies that prioritized protection of non-defensible structures and pastureland over firefighter safety, and failed to prioritize strategies consistent with Arizona State Forestry – Standard Operation Guide 701 Fire Suppression and Prescribed Fire Policy (2008). When the employer knew that suppresssion of extremely active chaparral fuels was ineffective and that wind would push active fire towards non-defensible structures, firefighters working downwind were not promptly removed from exposure to smoke inhalation, burns and death:
a) Yarnell Hill Fire, Yarnell, Arizona: On June 30, 2013, between 1230 and 1430, and after the general public had been evacuated, thirty-one members of Structure Protection Group 2, charged with protecting non-defensible structures in the vicinity of the Double Bar A Ranch, were exposed to smoke inhalation, burns, and death by wind driven wildland fire.
b) Yarnell Hill Fire, Yarnell, Arizona: On June 30, 2013, from and after 1530, one member of the Granite Mountain Interagency Hotshot crew that continued to serve as a lookout was exposed to smoke inhalation, burns, and death by a rapidly progressing wind driven wildland fire.
c) Yarnell Hill Fire, Yarnell, Arizona: On June 30, 2013, from and after 1530, approximately thirty firefighters continued indirect attack activities in Division Z (Zulu) and were exposed to smoke inhalation, burns, and death by a rapidly progressing wind driven wildland fire.
d) Yarnell Hill Fire, Yarnell, Arizona: On June 30, 2013, from and after 1530, 19 members of the Granite Mountain Interagency Hotshot Crew continued in suppression activities, until 1642 when they were entrapped by a rapidly progressing wind driven wildland fire.
Date By Which Violation Muse be Abated: 12/11/2013
Assessed Penalty: $70,000 ( Maximum allowed for a Willful / Serious violation ).
———————————————————————————————–
** CITATION 1 – ITEM 1(b) – Regarding the near-entrapment of McDonough
Again… ADOSH Citation 1 – Item 1(b) says…
——————————————————————————————-
b) Yarnell Hill Fire, Yarnell, Arizona: On June 30, 2013, from and after 1530, one member of the Granite Mountain Interagency Hotshot crew that continued to serve as a lookout was exposed to smoke inhalation, burns, and death by a rapidly progressing wind driven wildland fire.
——————————————————————————————–
Now here is the ‘argument’ the Arizona Forestry lawyers are making to Judge Mosesso to support their request that he DISMISS this “Item 1(b)” of the citations right away…
——————————————————————————————–
A. The Statements Made By Mr. McDonough in His Two Interviews with ADOSH and the Photographs Mr. McDonough took After He Left His Lookout Position, Which ADOSH Ignored, Contradict the Allegations in Citation 1, Item 1(b)
Mr. McDonough was interviewed, at length, by ADOSH twice During the interviews, Mr. McDonough explained the circumstances surrounding his involvement with the Fire and his departure from his lookout position. Mr. McDonough’s account of the events surrounding the Fire does not support the allegations in to Citation 1, Item 1(b).
ADOSH was in possession of Mr. McDonough’s statements while it conducted its investigation and when it made its recommendations to the ICA. Furthermore, ADOSH was in possession of photographs taken by Mr. McDonough which clearly establish that he was not subject to the conditions alleged in Citation 1, Item 1(b). The photographs show that Mr. McDonough was not where ADOSH alleges he was at the time ADOSH alleges he was, as set forth in the Citations. ADOSH, however, elected to not discuss Mr. McDonough’s photographs during its two interviews with him.
As a whole, ADOSH either failed to comprehend the information it had or chose to ignore it.
Regardless of the reasons why ADOSH made the allegations that it made, it is undeniable that justice and efficiency require that when the very statements made by the individual who was purportedly exposed to a dangerous condition contradict the allegation that he was exposed to such a condition, that portion of the Citation must be deleted. Failure to do so will require Mr. McDonough, the parties, and the Tribunal to go through the unnecessary process of having Mr. McDonough testify about information that is already in the record and unequivocally supports deletion of Citation 1, Item 1(b).
——————————————————————————————–
First and foremost… the Arizona Forestry lawyers are MISTAKEN in assuming that ADOSH reached its conclusions for the Item 1(b) Citation solely on the basis of anything Brendan McDonough HIMSELF may ( or may NOT ) have said to them.
In his FIRST ADOSH interview on August 20, 2013, Brendan McDonough was obviously not aware of all the facts surrounding his own situation and he was confused ( and mistaken ) about even the very reason Blue Ridge Superintendent Brian Frisby had suddenly ‘appeared’ to rescue him.
August 20, 2013 was almost a MONTH before the actual SAIR report would be published.
That SAIR report is when we first learned that Eric Marsh had asked Brian Frisby to come up to meet HIM for a second ‘face-to-face’ meeting that day and THAT is the only reason Brian Frisby was headed WEST on that two-track that day ( at that time ) and then ‘accidentally’ came across Brendan abandoning his lookout position.
During his first ADOSH interview on August 20, 2013, Brendan himself seemed completely unaware that was the reason Frisby had ‘accidentally’ come across him to ‘rescue’ him that day, and completely unaware that Marsh had requested that second face-to-face with Frisby.
On August 20, 2013, Brendan actually told investigators that Brian Frisby had ‘seen’ the situation developing where he was and had already decided to ‘come and get him’. That is what Brendan seemed to actually believe.
Here is the part from Brendan’s FIRST ADOSH interview where he explains what HE believed to be the ‘reason’ why Frisby was there to get him before he even had to chance to call him…
NOTE: The published transcription for some parts of Brendan’s August 20, 2013 interview are wrong. The following is taken directly from the AUDIO recording of that interview and is more accurate than the published version…
Q1 = Barry Hicks, ADOSH investigator
A = Brendan McDonough
———————————————————————————————
1856 Q1: Right. And so, um, does Blue Ridge hear that you’re gonna depart and…
1857
1858 They could see what was going on and they are already headed there when I
1859 was leaving my knob to go down. Before I even called them on the
1860 radio he was already there.
1861
1862 Q1: He was comin’ to…
1863
1864 A: Yeah.
1865
1866 Q1: Comin’ to that point…
1866
1866 A: Yeah
1866
1866 Q1… so that – that came together really well. You didn’t…
1867
1868 A: Yeah.
1869
1870 Q1: …have to… with a lotta…
1871
1872 A: And… I mean, he told me.
1873
1874 Q1: Yeah.
1875
1876 A: I – I trust him.
1877
1878 Q1: Yeah. Okay.
——————————————————————————————–
So on August 20, 2013, Brendan was NOT aware that Brian Frisby had only ‘accidentally’ come across him there on the two-track. He was still under the mistaken impression that Frisby had traveled in his direction because he was already ‘aware’ of Brendan’s circumstances and had already ‘decided’ to ‘come and get him’.
Even on October 10, 2013, during his SECOND ADOSH interview, Brendan told ADOSH investigators that he still had not even READ the SAIR report that was published the morning of September 28, 2013.
So it is still not clear if even in Brendan’s SECOND ADOSH interview whether Brendan was fully aware that the circumstances of his ‘rescue’ were more ‘accidental’ than any kind of ‘plan’.
From Brendan’s SECOND ADOSH interview on October 10, 2013.
This is where he tells ADOSH he had STILL not even ‘read’ the SAIR report.
Q2 = Marshall Krotenberg – ADOSH lead investigator
A = Brendan McDonough
——————————————————————————————-
374 Q2: Do you have – have you – ha- have you had a chance to look at this Serious
375 Accident Investigation Report?
376
377 A: Um…
378
379 Q2: Or parts of it anyway?
380
381 A: I – I guess…
382
383 Q2: I’m not gonna ask you anything specific.
384
385 A: I mean, honestly, no, I haven’t looked at it yet.
——————————————————————————————-
So even though Brendan did NOT seem to be fully aware during EITHER of his ADOSH interviews how ‘chancy’ his ‘accidental rescue’ really was that day… he STILL acknowledged to ADOSH investigators ( in BOTH interviews ) that he was ‘aware’ that the ‘timing’ was TIGHT and that he had been ‘deciding where he could deploy’ and had, in fact, been actually physically pressing the TRANSMIT button on his radio to call for someone in Blue Ridge to ‘come and get him’ at the very moment Brian Frisby accidentally appeared where he was.
He also repeated ( to ADOSH ) his testimony that he gave to the SAIT investigators that he HAD been evaluating his ‘deployment’ options at that time, and that he even considered ‘alternatives’ other than that old-grader location that he said had already been ‘assigned’ to him ( by either Jesse Steed or Eric Marsh or BOTH ) as his ‘designated safety zone’.
In their own ‘Investigation Report’… ADOSH summarized these (multiple) conversations with Brendan like this…
Page 19 of the ADOSH Inspection Narrative
——————————————————————————————–
During the interview with McDonough, McDonough stated that he believes that had his escape been delayed for any number of reasons, he would have been faced with shelter deployment and burn-over.
——————————————————————————————–
As to whether or not it is TRUE that Brian Frisby had really only ‘accidentally’ stumbled across Brendan at that exact right moment that day in order to effect his ‘rescue’… the PROOF of that comes directly from the mouth of Brian Frisby himself.
And I mean ‘directly’ from Frisby’s mouth.
The entire section in Brian Frisby’s officially submitted handwritten Unit Log concerning this ‘accidental meetup’ with Brendan was BLACKED OUT ( REDACTED ) by the U.S. Forestry Service… but in the recently released ‘additional’ VIDEOS taken in Yarnell by Prescott National Forest employee Aaron Hulburd… we actually HEAR Brian Frisby himself explaining what happened regarding Brendan to the other PNF Employee KC ‘Bucky’ Yowell.
From Aaron Hulburd VIDEO with filename M2U00271
NOTE: This video is 59 seconds long but was filmed out at the end of the Shrine Road area just before Blue Ridge Captain Trueheart Brown said “Fuck it… let’s go for it” and then Blue Ridge Hotshots Brian Frisby, Trueheart Brown and Prescott National Forest employees Jason Clawson, Aaron Hulburd and KC ‘Bucky’ Yowell all decided to ‘break through’ the fireline and head WEST on the ‘ground rescue mission’.
——————————————————————————————-
+0:00
(Jason Clawson?): Ask them if the black plume is where they are.
+0:02
( OPS2 Paul Musser ): …point just… uh… (down) here in Yarnell.
+0:13
(Unknown – Aaron Hulburd?): How many were in there?
+0:21
(Brian Frisby): They were sittin’ in cold black.
+0:23
(Trueheart Brown): They were in black.
+0:25
(Aaron Hulburd?): (So) THAT’S what they were talking about? (The) Lookout?
+0:28
(Brian Frisby): No. No. (He’s) in black…
+0:30
(KC ‘Bucky’ Yowell?): ( Overlapping with Frisby ) I heard that (one).
+0:31
(Brian Frisby): …and Eric decided that the trail that kinda follows that ridge… green… goes around. That lookout was down below. I went in to go tie in with Eric… and that’s when it picked up. I just happened to stumble upon the lookout… without the… uh… I grabbed him. ( He’s out ).
———————————————————————————————–
So there is Brian Frisby himself describing the moment he encountered Brendan McDonough and he cleary says…
Brian Frisby: “I just happened to stumble upon the lookout”.
There was no PLAN in effect to ‘rescue’ Brendan. Not at the time that it happened, anyway. It was a complete ‘accident’ that Brian Frisby came across Brendan McDonough when he did that day and was then able to ‘rescue’ him from the approaching fireline.
The following ‘evidence’ that Brendan was, indeed, in grave DANGER that afternoon has also already been mentioned down below… but it is important and it is worth repeating here in this ‘summary’.
When filing their ‘motion’ to dismiss Citation 1 – Item 1(b), the Arizona Forestry lawyers also apparently forgot to check with their ‘own man’… the actual Co-Lead of Arizona Forestry’s own sub-contracted SAIT investigation. ( Mike Dudley ).
SAIT Co-Lead Mike Dudley never had ANY doubts that if Brian Frisby hadn’t ‘accidentally’ stumbled across Brendan when he did… that Brendan would have most likely been the ‘first fatality’ that day.
Mike Dudley even used the word “Guaranteed”.
From SAIT Co-Lead Mike Dudley’s PUBLIC statements made
on June 20, 2014, during a PUBLIC presentation in Utah…
———————————————————————————
The Blue Ridge superintendent… he was drivin’ the UTV… he’s picking up the lookout… he’s getting his crew ready to bail out… he’s gathering them up… and he knows he’s gotta move his buggies and Granite Mountain’s buggies… so he’s multi-tasking through this process as he’s tryin’ to have this communication.
I will also say… that if he had not come around the corner at the time that he did… the lookout woulda been the first fatality.
Guaranteed.
There was NO place for that lookout to have safely deployed… and he was WAY too close when he decided to bail out from where the fire was.
———————————————————————————-
As for the strange references to Brendan’s photographs in the Arizona Forestry motion… the Arizona Forestry lawyers seem to have forgotten that according to even the UNREDACTED parts of Brian Frisby’s own handwritten Unit Log… the MOMENT he and Brendan reached that area where the GM Supt and Chase trucks were parked… Brian Frisby himself was so concerned about how CLOSE the fireline was and how FAST it was moving that he decided there was “no time to lose” and no time to just WAIT for the other Blue Ridge ‘drivers’ to reach that location.
Brian Frisby dropped Brendan off at the GM trucks and then IMMEDIATELY continued SOUTH in the Sesame area to expedite getting ‘drivers’ up there to the trucks… since because of the fire behavior… there really was “no time to lose”.
It was WHILE Brian Frisby was acting on these concerns of his about how CLOSE the fire was and how FAST it was approaching that Brendan took some of those iPhone ‘photographs’ of his… which the Arizona Forestry lawyers now seem to want to say represent some kind of PROOF that Brendan was never in ‘any danger’ that day. Quite the opposite, really… including the fact that some of Brendan’s photos are showing a ‘smoke whirl’ right there near the GM vehicles which is just one more indication of ‘extreme fire behavior’ rapidly approaching his location.
In SUMMARY…
Arizona Forestry’s claim to ALJ Judge Michael Mossesso that there is no ‘evidence’ that Brendan McDonough was ever in any ‘danger’ that afternoon is beyond ABSURD.
**
** CITATION 1 – ITEM 1(c) – Regarding near-entrapments in the Harper Canyon and Shrine Road Youth Camp area(s)…
Again… ADOSH Citation 1 – Item 1(c) says…
——————————————————————–
c) Yarnell Hill Fire, Yarnell, Arizona: On June 30, 2013, from and after 1530, approximately thirty firefighters continued indirect attack activities in Division Z (Zulu) and were exposed to smoke inhalation, burns, and death by a rapidly progressing wind driven wildland fire.
——————————————————————–
That is the actual ‘Item 1(c)’ that the Arizona Forestry lawyers want Judge Mosesso to ‘dismiss’ outright… and HERE is their ( twisted ) reasoning at to WHY…
—————————————————————————————
IV. GRANTING THE MOTION TO DELETE CITATION 1, ITEM 1(C) WILL SIMPLIFY
THE ISSUES, EXPEDITE THE PROCEEDINGS, AND ACHIEVE JUSTICE.
In the same way ADOSH’s own investigation and records are devoid of any evidence that supports Citation 1, Item 1(b) ( that Brendan McDonough was in any danger ), ADOSH’s investigation and records also include zero evidence to support Citation 1, Item 1(c). Citation 1, Item 1(c) states that “approximately thirty firefighters continued indirect attack activities in Division Z (Zulu) and were exposed to smoke inhalation, burns and death by a rapidly progressing wind driven wildland fire” ( Citation 1, Item 1(c) ). But, as discussed in the Motion to Delete Citation 1, Item 1(c), at the time of the alleged exposure, there were zero firefighters assigned to Division Z. So Citation 1, Item 1(c) is completely baseless.
—————————————————————————————-
Arizona Forestry is NOT asking Judge Mosesso to DISMISS Item 1(c) because there is no EVIDENCE that the firefighters in the Harper Canyon and Shrine Road Youth Camp areas were never in any real danger or that accounts and testimony from some of them about how they almost became entrapped are FALSE.
Arizona Forestry is asking Judge Mosesso to DISMISS Item 1(c) simply because the AZF attorneys say there is no proof that ‘thirty firefighters’ were ever officially ASSIGNED to ‘Division Zulu’.
The actual ADOSH Citation never says they were.
There is no mention of the word ‘assigned’ in the actual ADOSH Citation.
It only says these firefighters ‘continued indirect attack activities’ INSIDE of a geographic area of the fire that could be construed to be “Division Zulu”, based on what certain ‘fire management’ officials said in THEIR testimony.
The ADOSH citation doesn’t say they ( the thirty firefighters themselves ) ever even really KNEW they could be considered to be working INSIDE of this ‘Division Zulu’… much less had full knowledge as to whether they were officially ‘assigned’ to this ‘Division’.
But they were THERE… and they WERE ‘working in that area’ when ( according to their own testimony ) some of their lives became endangered that afternoon.
In SUMMARY…
Arizona Forestry’s claim to ALJ Judge Michael Mossesso that ‘Item 1(c)’ is ‘completely baseless’ just based on whether the firefighters whose lives were in REAL danger ever even KNEW they were ‘assigned to Division Z’ that day is beyond ABSURD.
It is the Arizona Forestry lawyer’s claims themselves that are “completely baseless”.
It will be interesting to see what Judge Mosesso’s response is to this nonsense.
The Disappeared DIV Z according to AZ Fire there was no DIV Z and all the close calls attributed to it
do not exist because DIV Z did not exist or have any manpower assigned.
This is an interesting twist in the ALJ Hearing File.
If the BR Hot shots and Cat were not working DIV Z then Were they DIV A or were they assigned to the house protection unit. There was a DIV Z with a DIVS that then left the DIVS position but BR Frisby was working on line to tie into GM line DIV A. There was a division line worked out.
The State is somehow trying to say that there were no crews that were in harms way in DIV Z because it did not exist. They want to drop the Fines for those crews.
Might have to dig a little deeper on this one. ADOSH Clamed a DIV Z and crews assigned.
The ADOSH report stated in ( 1.C ) that Approximately 30 Fire Fighters where exposed to Hazards in Division Z,
Looks like some serious game playing here, by Lawyers.
Reply to Bob Powers post on April 17, 2015 at 8:18 am
>> Bob Powers said…
>>
>> The ADOSH report stated in ( 1.C ) that Approximately 30 Fire
>> Fighters where exposed to Hazards in Division Z,
>>
>> Looks like some serious game playing here, by Lawyers.
‘Game playing’, fer sure… but I wouldn’t even call it ‘serious’ for the sole reason that this ‘motion’ trying to get ADOSH Citation 1 – Item 1(c) dismissed is a ‘joke’… and whoever drafted it for the Arizona Attorney General’s office has/had their head up their ass.
They didn’t even get the actual WORDING and/or INTENT of the ADOSH citation right.
ADOSH Citation 1 – Item 1(c) ACTUALLY says…
——————————————————————–
c) Yarnell Hill Fire, Yarnell, Arizona: On June 30, 2013, from and after 1530,
approximately thirty firefighters continued indirect attack activities in Division
Z (Zulu) and were exposed to smoke inhalation, burns, and death by a
rapidly progressing wind driven wildland fire.
——————————————————————–
Notice that the ADOSH Citation NEVER says ( one way or the other ) whether ANYONE was actually ‘assigned’ to ‘Division Z’.
It only says that ( according to other testimony from lots of other people )… it could simply be construed that they were ‘WORKING IN’ a geographical area of the fire that others in fire command were already calling ‘Division Z’.
So now here comes this ridiculous claim from Arizona Forestry…
——————————————————————————–
IV. GRANTING THE MOTION TO DELETE CITATION 1, ITEM 1(C)
WILL SIMPLIFY THE ISSUES, EXPEDITE THE PROCEEDINGS,
AND ACHIEVE JUSTICE.
In the same way ADOSH’s own investigation and records are
devoid of any evidence that supports Citation 1, Item 1(b) ( that
Brendan McDonough was in any danger ), ADOSH’s investigation
and records also include zero evidence to support Citation 1,
Item 1(c). Citation 1, Item 1(c) states that “approximately thirty
firefighters continued indirect attack activities in Division Z
(Zulu) and were exposed to smoke inhalation, burns and death
by a rapidly progressing wind driven wildland fire” ( Citation 1,
Item 1(c) ). But, as discussed in the Motion to Delete Citation
1, Item 1(c), at the time of the alleged exposure, there were
zero firefighters assigned to Division Z. So Citation 1, Item 1(c)
is completely baseless.
——————————————————————————–
Again… AT NO TIME does the ADOSH citation actually claim that the firefighters in question were either ‘officially’ ( or themselves had knowledge they were ) ASSIGNED to something called ‘Division Z’.
The ADOSH citation just says that happens to be the geographic location where they were actually working when they were unnecessarily exposed to hazards that day.
Arizona Forestry’s motion is NOT asking Judge Mosesso to DISMISS Item 1(c) because there is no EVIDENCE that the firefighters in the Shrine Youth Camp and Harper Canyon areas were never in any real danger or that accounts and testimony from some of them about how they almost became entrapped are FALSE.
Arizona Forestry is asking Judge Mosesso to DISMISS Item 1(c) simply because the AZF attorneys want to ‘play games’ here and say there is no proof that ‘thirty firefighters’ were ever officially ASSIGNED to ‘Division Zulu’.
It’s nonsense. What is ‘baseless’ here is THEIR argument.
As if that isn’t enough… ‘Arizona Forestry’ isn’t even contesting the OTHER ( separate ) ADOSH citation which found that the establishment of ‘Division Z’ that day… but then WITHOUT making sure the assigned ‘Division Z Supervisor’ ever even really ‘took charge’ of that Division and fulfilled his responsibilities that day was another cause for the ‘chaos’ in the geographic area of the fire… where fatalities almost ( and also did ) take place that day.
The whole thing with Rance Marquez being officially ‘assigned’ to be ‘DIVSZ SUP’ that day but then just ‘bailing out’ and ‘disappearing’ back to Peeples Valley for the rest of the day is a SEPARATE Citation issued by ADOSH.
Arizona Forestry is NOT contesting that one at all. Not yet, anyway.
So Arizona Forestry is then basically STIPULATING that there really WAS a ‘Division Z’ that day… and it had an assigned supervisor.
WHO actually did ( or didn’t ) know they were now WORKING in that Division and FOR that ‘Division Supervisor[‘ is now permanently part of the total screw-ups and the mis-management that was going down in Yarnell that day… which is why ADOSH issued the Citations.
This really is ‘amateur hour’ on the part of whoever drafted that motion on behalf of “Arizona Forestry”.
Correction for above…
When I said ( regarding the separate Citation about Rance Marquez )…
“Arizona Forestry is NOT contesting that one at all. Not yet, anyway.”
That isn’t true. Arizona Forestry IS ‘contesting’ that citation regarding Rance Marquez never fulfilling his assigned duties and responsibilities as DIVSZ.
Arizona Forestry is, in fact, contesting ALL the ADOSH Citations.
Every single one of them.
That’s the whole reason for this “Arizona Forestry vs. ADOSH” proceeding.
“No one did anything wrong that day. Move along. Move along”.
What Arizona Forestry is NOT doing ( yet ) is asking Judge Mosesso for a ‘dispositive motion’ regarding the separate ‘DIVSZ’ citation.
dispositive motion = DISPOSE of the Citation even before they get to the evidentiary hearings in the case like they are asking for Citation 1, Items 1(b) and 1(c).
“In the same way ADOSH’s own investigation and records are
devoid of any evidence that supports Citation 1, Item 1(b) ( that
Brendan McDonough was in any danger ),”
BOTH HIKERS HERE BUT JOY REPLYING BELOW ABOUT OUR TIME:
I GUESS THEY FORGOT THE WEAVER MOUNTAIN EYEWITNESS HIKERS SAW THIS FIREFIGHTER THAT MORNING IN HIS LOCATION SO WE ARE “LIVING” EVIDENCE THAT THE FIREFIGHTERS IN THE AREA NOT JUST DONUT WERE IN DANGEROUS SPOT ESPECIALLY WHEN WE EYEWITNESS AND FILMED AND PHOTOGRAPHED HARPER CANYON GO UP IN 14 MINUTES. THAT IS WHEN I COULD NOT UNDERSTAND WHY SONNY SAID TO ME IF THE WIND CHANGES IT COULD KILL US. I DID NOT UNDERSTAND THAT WHEN HE SAID IT AND LEFT ME. I JUST SAT THERE BECAUSE I WAS SPENT AND HOT NOT BECAUSE I WAS MESMERIZED AS HE THINKS—I JUST DID NOT NOTE THE DANGER AS HE DID SO EARLY ON
Reply to The Hikers post on April 17, 2015 at 11:55 am
>> The Hikers said…
>>
>> “In the same way ADOSH’s own investigation and records are
>> devoid of any evidence that supports Citation 1, Item 1(b) ( that
>> Brendan McDonough was in any danger ),”
>>
>> BOTH HIKERS HERE BUT JOY REPLYING
>> WE ARE “LIVING” EVIDENCE THAT THE FIREFIGHTERS IN
>> THE AREA NOT JUST DONUT WERE IN DANGEROUS SPOT
This ‘motion’ that the Arizona Forestry lawyers have filed which is trying to establish that Brendan was ‘in no danger’ that day is patently ridiculous and represents nothing but ‘desperation’ and ‘amateur hour’ lawyering on their part.
They didn’t even read the frickin’ ADOSH Investigation report.
Page 19 of the ADOSH Inspection Narrative
———————————————————————
During the interview with McDonough, McDonough stated that he believes that had his escape been delayed for any number of reasons, he would have been faced with shelter deployment and burn-over.
———————————————————————
BOTH of Brendan’s ADOSH interview transcripts support this… but regardless of even that fact… the ADOSH Citation regarding Brendan’s potential entrapment situation was NOT solely based on what Brendan himself did or didn’t tell them. It was based on ALL the evidence regarding what actually happened ( and almost happened ) that day.
Brendan KNEW the danger he was in… which is WHY he was in the process of calling Blue Ridge to come and GET him at that same moment when Brian Frisby ACCIDENTALLY stumbled across him.
As if that wasn’t enough… the Arizona Forestry lawyers also apparently forgot to check with their ‘own man’… the actual Co-Lead of Arizona Forestry’s own sub-contracted SAIT investigation. ( Mike Dudley ).
SAIT Co-Lead Mike Dudley never had ANY doubts that if Brian Frisby hadn’t ‘accidentally’ stumbled across Brendan when he did… that Brendan would have most likely been the ‘first fatality’ that day.
Mike Dudley even used the word “Guaranteed”.
From SAIT Co-Lead Mike Dudley’s PUBLIC statements made on June 20, 2014, during a PUBLIC presentation in Utah…
———————————————————————–
The Blue Ridge superintendent… he was drivin’ the UTV… he’s picking
up the lookout… he’s getting his crew ready to bail out… he’s gathering
them up… and he knows he’s gotta move his buggies and Granite
Mountain’s buggies… so he’s multi-tasking through this process as
he’s tryin’ to have this communication.
I will also say… that if he had not come around the corner at the
time that he did… the lookout woulda been the first fatality.
Guaranteed.
There was NO place for that lookout to have safely
deployed… and he was WAY too close when he decided to
bail out from where the fire was.
————————————————————————
Arizona Forestry’s claim to ALJ Judge Michael Mossesso that there is no ‘evidence’ that Brendan McDonough was ever in any ‘danger’ that afternoon is ABSURD.
To define; THE HIKERS mean we are both present here.
In the photos and videos on 6-30-13 if any lawyer and investigator sat with us we can even pinpoint in video the area of all the firefighters and people we saw locations
Joy says on video live that day how many she saw if any of you listened
The hikers know exact location of people and vehicles and also the timing of off road vehicles on old grader road yet not any official investigators except OSHA inquired and walked the walk…
State and Forest and anyone else never yet took hike to see what the eyewitness hikers to the YHF saw on the Weavers that day. Prescott Mayor made comment to do it but never did. Same as some lawyers. I would of thought Joanna Dodder Nellans would of took the hike with as much coverage she has done and being the very first media person to have access to the photos and videos. She was the one who told us to go to Prescott fire station when we did not get a welcomed feeling once we arrived there. That was my first red flag but I just coughed it up as they just faced a huge loss and their thoughts are elsewhere but I never felt they even wanted access to the photos and videos.
‘
We did not see the bulldozer actually physically parked below the old mine between the old grader and the old mine on 6-30-13 yet there was a bulldozed area to park that was not there before this fire so that is where DIV Z was suppose to be up at, correct? WHO bulldozed that spot? It is not in reports we saw. Can you lead us to the records of who that person that made those tracks? Joy asked the FOIA for Glen Ilah area for the Hunter family and I guess we should have for all areas.
Reply to The Hikers post on April 17, 2015 at 11:13 am
>> The Hikers said…
>>
>> We did not see the bulldozer actually physically parked below
>> the old mine between the old grader and the old mine
>> on 6-30-13 yet there was a bulldozed area to park that was
>> not there before this fire so that is where DIV Z was suppose to
>> be up at, correct?
Field OPS1 Todd Abel testified that DIVSA Eric Marsh called him ( via cellphone ) and said that while he and DIVSZ Rance Marquez had, in fact, had some initial ‘disagreements’…. they eventually AGREED that the ‘Division boundary’ between ‘Division A’ and ‘Division Z’ would be the ‘old grader’.
So from that moment on ( circa 12:45 PM )… that meant that a ‘north-to-south’ boundary between the Divisions had been agreed upon… and the top level Operations Supervisor on the fire had been fully informed about it.
By north-to-south boundary… that means that all fire units and resources working to the WEST of the ‘old grader’ were to be considered working in ‘Division A’ ( Eric Marsh’s Division )… and all fire units and resources working to the EAST of the ‘old grader’ were to be considered working in ‘Division Z’ ( Rance Marquez’s Division ).
Notice that I say just ‘considered to be WORKING in’.
That doesn’t meant all fire units and resources were ever officially ASSIGNED to this ‘Division Z’ that was suddenly created in the middle of the working day.
Indeed… most of the people working for Structure Protection Group 1 Supervisor Gary Cordes there in and around Yarnell were never aware at all that this ‘Division Z’ had even been created… and that their own ‘Division Supervisor’ was now some guy named Rance Marquez.
That is one of the specific Citations that was issued by ADOSH with regards to that ‘unsafe workplace’ there in Yarnell on June 30, 2013.
ADOSH found that this confusion over ‘Division Z’, and DIVSZ supervisor Rance Marquez’s own failure to actually physically remain in Yarnell and PERFORM his ‘DIVSZ’ duties was a contributing factor to the chaos and the resulting potential and actual entrapment situations later in the day.
ADOSH also cited ‘fire management’ ( Incident Commander and Operations Level people ) in general for not making SURE that once this ‘Division Z’ was created/established… that it WAS being properly supervised and managed.
Even Field Operations Manager Todd Abel testified that he had no idea where his own ‘Division Z’ Supervisor was for most of the day… and he never really lifted a finger to even find out.
Field OPS1 Todd Abel’s contacts on the the SOUTH side of the fire were DIVSA Eric Marsh and SPGS1 Gary Cordes… and that was ( apparently ) good enough for him all day long.
Field OPS1 Todd Abel did not CARE that a ‘Division Z’ had actually been established… but no one was actually ‘running’ that established ‘Division’.
>> The Hikers also said…
>>
>> WHO bulldozed that spot? It is not in reports we saw. Can you
>> lead us to the records of who that person that made those tracks?
It is still basically a total mystery WHERE that bulldozer with the 12 foot blade they were using that morning actually CAME from… or WHO the operator was.
It was ‘supposedly’ ordered up the night before from a company called ‘May Machinery’… but it might actually have ended up a ‘County’ dozer loaned out use on the fire.
It was SUPPOSED to have come with a red-card capable manager… but did NOT.
It ONLY came with a ‘dozer operator’ whose NAME is still totally unknown.
He did NOT have a ‘red-card’… OR even have a working handheld radio.
That is why Blue Ridge Hotshot Cory Ball had to be assigned to the dozer ( he had a red-card ) and why Blue Ridge had to loan that operator a radio.
The lo-boy trailer for that bulldozer was parked out there in that clearing at the south end of the ‘Sesame clearing’ area… right past the point where the paved parts of Both Lakewood and Manazanita end and it turns in to that dirt road.
That is also where it is assumed this mysterious dozer operator had to ‘ride out the burnover’ in either the cab of the bulldozer or the cab of the lo-boy trailer.
DPS Ranger 58 Helicopter crew testimony says there were TOLD that they were also supposed to be ‘searching’ for this ‘missing’ dozer operator along with the ‘missing’ Granite Mountain crew.
It is still unknown WHO told the DPS Officers to also be ‘searching’ for the ‘missing’ bulldozer operator following the deployment radio traffic.
It could have been SPGS1 Gary Cordes, or OPS1 Todd Abel, or even OPS2 Paul Musser ( who was now the second active Field OPS on the fire ).
We still don’t know.
This mysterious bulldozer operator was NEVER interviewed by ANY set of investigators… even though he was actively being ‘searched for’ along with Granite Mountain that day.
**
** BRENDAN MCDONOUGH NO LONGER WORKS FOR THE
** WILDLAND FIREFIGHTER FOUNDATION
About 8 hours ago, the following article appeared in the “The Idaho Statesman”.
It looks like that “Wildland Firefighter Foundation” owned and operated by Vicki Minor and her son Burk is going to survive all the latest bad press about how they have been handling all the money that showed up following the Yarnell Tragedy.
But they will be doing it WITHOUT Brendan McDonough remaining ‘on staff’ for them.
The Idaho Statesman
Article Title: Wildland Firefighter Foundation makes changes following financial criticism
Published: April 16, 2015, by Rocky Barker
http://www.idahostatesman.com/2015/04/16/3753740/wildland-firefighter-foundation.html
From the article…
———————————————————————————–
The harsh words from some of the surviving family members of fallen firefighters about the Wildland Firefighter Foundation weren’t easy to hear for Vicki Minor, the executive director and founder of the group that is dedicated to helping them.
I reported in February that critics and former board members said the foundation has grown too fast and had too few controls in place to ensure proper spending. But it was the view of some family members that they were treated poorly or forgotten that was tough on the Boise woman who has dedicated more than 16 years to help firefighters’ families through their grief.
An independent review conducted by Boise consultant Karyn Wood for the foundation’s board confirmed many of the shortcomings I reported in February. There was a lack of clear policies and there was little oversight on expenses, reporting on how they gave money to firefighter survivors and clarity about how the money they raised was spent.
———————————–
Whoops… I hit ‘send’ too early on the post above.
Forgot to include the part of the article that says Brendan McDonough has (quote) “moved on” and is no longer employed by this ‘Wildland Firefighter Foundation’.
The article doesn’t say WHEN Brendan ‘moved on’… only that he has.
More from the same article…
——————————————————————————–
John Henshaw, a retired Forest Service manager from California and chairman of the board, said it has taken the recommendations seriously and intends to put them in place in the next six months.
Already Minor has hired an additional administrative assistant to help with the increased documentation the board has demanded. She’s in the process of hiring a chief financial officer, as recommended, and she plans to hire another person to help provide services to the survivors and injured firefighters.
That will bring staffing up to seven since Brendan McDonough, the only Granite Mountain Hotshot to survive the 2013 Yarnell Fire, has moved on.
——————————————————————————–
Followup…
As of February 11, 2015 ( about 2 months ago ) the “Wildland Firefighter Foundation” was still claiming that Brendan McDonough worked for them and one of his jobs was to help other victims with post-incident PTSD.
Here is that original “Idaho Statesmen” article about their ‘investigation’ of the “Wildland Firefighter Foundation”…
The Idaho Statesman
Article Title: Western residents have questioned a family-run Boise
foundation, forcing an independent review
Published: February 11, 2015 by Rocky Barker
http://www.idahostatesman.com/2015/02/11/3638949_charity-helps-families-but-also.html?rh=1
From that original February 11, 2015 article…
—————————————————————————–
The Idaho Statesman conducted its own investigation of the foundation, examining tax records for the past 12 years and talking to people who have worked with or been served by the foundation.
The newspaper found that in 2013, fueled by the publicity surrounding the Granite Mountain Hotshot deaths, the foundation raised $2,023,410 while spending $469,305 in benefits and other services to families, according to its filing with the Internal Revenue Service. It spent $339,973 on employee salaries, compensation and benefits. The rest went to other expenses and a big chunk to a reserve that can’t be spent without board approval, said Treasurer Cheryl Molis. She declined to say how much.
Today, the association has five full-time employees, including Brendan McDonough, the only Granite Mountain Hotshot to survive the Yarnell Fire. The $339,973 on employee costs for 2013 was an increase of $194,140 over 2012. Vicki Minor’s pay went from $68,999 in 2012 to $108,609 in 2013.
—————————————————————————-
Correction?
I’m actually now not sure the title of the post above shouldn’t have had a QUESTION MARK on the end of it.
I can find no announcement from the “Wildland Firefighter’s Association” itself to the effect that Brendan McDonough has “moved on” and no longer works for them.
Brendan McDonough is NOT listed as a “Staff Member” on the WFF website… but then again… I don’t believe he ever actually HAS appeared anywhere on their “Staff” page.
I suppose it is actually possible that reporter Rocky Barker for the Idaho Statesman screwed up in the article he published TODAY… and when he said Brendan has “moved on” he might *actually* have been referring to Brendan having “moved on” from being a firefighter way back when ( shortly after the Yarnell trafedy ) and that he is still considered to be “on staff” at the Wildland Firefighter’s Association.
Still checking to see if I can find any verification as to whether McDonough still ‘works’ there… or not.
Followup to followup…
Back in early September of 2014, the following “Brendan McDonough Healing Center” page appeared on Facebook… sponsored by the “Wildland Firefighters Foundation”…
HEALING RETREAT CENTER
For Mr. Brendan McDonough and the Wildland Firefighter Foundation
https://www.facebook.com/pages/Brendan-McDonough-Healing-Center/1444027372536748
That page has now been REMOVED from Facebook.
Not sure what that means.
At the following link… someone is still publishing a ‘screen capture’ of what that “Brendan McDonough Healing Center” page USED to look like on Facebook when the page was still ‘available’.
That screen snapshot is about halfway down the page at the following link.
If you simply use the ‘Find’ option in your Browser and search for “Brendan” your Browser will jump right down to it…
http://stopusdawsabuse.blogspot.com/
This is certainly not a criticism of Brendan, as I have repeatedly in the past been one who has advised that I think we should back-off of him a bit.
I still think that.
Having said that, in regards to his employment with the WFF Foundation to help others who have PTSD, I would think it would be nearly, or totally impossible for one who was awash in his own PTSD to be able to logically help others with their’s. If those were his intentions though, they were honorable.
I think considering all of the factors involved, it was almost a given that he was a very strong candidate for survivor”s guilt, and/or PTSD, and with his recent inquiry to the City, that seems to be the case. The recent court filings indicate that he has someone working with him on these issues.
I can only hope that his departure from both, the City, and the WFF Foundation were at his request and that he isn’t repeatedly getting flushed by those who say they are “on his side”.
We all want the truth put out there, sooner, rather than later. but, I still think that he is working through some HUGE issues, not the least of which, is his likely belief that speaking the truth will betray his allegiance to some of his brothers, perhaps dishonoring them, the fallout from which, could last for years.
Putting that out there would be a tall order, even if one didn’t have PTSD.
Reply to The Truth Will Always Remain Elusive ( TTWARE ) post
on April 16, 2015 at 8:51 pm
>> TTWARE said…
>>
>> I can only hope that his departure from both, the City, and the
>> WFF Foundation were at his request and that he isn’t repeatedly
>> getting flushed by those who say they are “on his side”.
Totally agree… but I have to repeat that I now think I should have put a QUESTION MARK at the end of the title of that post above.
As of this moment… I can’t CONFIRM that Brendan has “moved on” from the WFF job as the article above seems to be saying he has.
Until I can CONFIRM what this Rocky Barker guy with the Idaho Statesman said in his article today… there is still the *possibility* that this guy misspoke and when he said “Brendan has moved on”… he was actually referring to Brendan having “moved on” from Wildland Firefighting shortly after the tragedy.
That being said… I also have to agree with your other comment…
>> TTWARE said…
>>
>> In regards to his employment with the WFF Foundation to help
>> others who have PTSD, I would think it would be nearly, or totally
>> impossible for one who was awash in his own PTSD to be able
>> to logically help others with their’s.
Have to agree. I am no therapist, or even a counselor or social worker, but it doesn’t take a degree in psychology to realize it is NOT a good idea to have someone who seems to be officially diagnosed with their own PTSD ( and being actively treated for it ) being the “go to” guy for a Foundation and the one trying to help OTHERS deal with a tragic event in THEIR lives.
>> TTWARE also said…
>>
>> I think considering all of the factors involved, it was almost a given
>> that he was a very strong candidate for survivor”s guilt, and/or
>> PTSD, and with his recent inquiry to the City, that seems to be
>> the case. The recent court filings indicate that he has someone
>> working with him on these issues.
Speaking of the “recent court filings”… it was actually TOTALLY unprofessional ( and a possible violation of actual HIPPA laws ) for those Arizona Forestry lawyers to use Brendan’s ( supposed ) medical condition to just try and bolster their claims in a ‘motion’ filing to try and get what they want out of a Judge.
Those Arizona Forestry attorneys KNOW that, according to Arizona law, these ‘motions’ they are filing with ALJ Judge Michael Mosesso WILL be appearing ( on a timely basis ) in a PUBLIC setting… for anyone to read.
For them to just ‘announce’ that Brendan really does have a diagnosed medical condition, and he is ACTIVELY receiving treatment for it from a therapist… just to try and ‘sway’ a Judge to give them something they want… is really ‘off the reservation’ and they MIGHT be subject to ‘sanctions’ for such (stupid) behavior.
If they really needed to notify the Judge in this proceeding that a possible diagnosed medical condition on the part of a key witness in the case is going to heavily influence the proceedings… they did NOT have to plaster that all over a ‘motion filing’ for all the world to see.
There were/are other ways that information could have been relayed to the Judge in the case more ‘discreetly’… and with more care/concern for Brendan’s situation.
Especially since this ‘dispositive motion’ they are trying to push down the Judge’s throat is already complete and utter bullshit. They want the Judge to dismiss Item 1(b) of ADOSH Citation 1 just because they are trying to claim there is no evidence that Brendan was ever in any actual ‘danger’ that day.
The Co-Lead of Arizona Forestry’s own sub-contracted SAIT investigation ( Mike Dudley ) has ALREADY stated ( in PUBLIC ) that if BR Supt Brian Frisby had not ACCIDENTALLY stumbled across Brendan that afternoon and ‘rescued’ him… that Brendan would have been the (quote) “First fatality that day Guaranteed”.
>> TTWARE also said…
>>
>> We all want the truth put out there, sooner, rather than later. but, I
>> still think that he is working through some HUGE issues, not the
>> least of which, is his likely belief that speaking the truth will betray
>> his allegiance to some of his brothers, perhaps dishonoring them,
>> the fallout from which, could last for years.
Sorry. I just don’t buy that.
For all the following reasons…
1) We KNOW now that Brendan HIMSELF has asked any number of people that he be allowed to ‘get this off his chest’. He, HIMSELF, seems to instinctively KNOW that he needs to get this ‘monkey off his back’ before he can fully heal.
2) Brendan has stated any number of times that HE believes what happened that day was “just an accident”… and that it has “happened before”… and that he has (quote) “Never questioned their decisions before, why should I question them now?” If he REALLY believes those statements HE has (already) made… then there is NO reason for him to even think he is ‘dishonoring’ ANYONE by telling the TRUTH about what really happened that day.
3) MOST of the FAMILIES of ‘his brothers’ have stated over and over and over again that they WANT to know the TRUTH… no matter what it is. They have even filed lawsuits with the expressed intent of accomplishing that. If Brendan can’t see that withholding the information he has always had is hurting the very loved ones of “his brothers”… then he has MORE than just PTSD and he really DOES need professional help.
I am still not convinced ( especially after seeing how easily the Arizona Forestry lawyers will stoop to using someone’s medical condition to try and get what THEY want ) that Brendan isn’t still just involved in too many OTHER people’s damn AGENDAS.
Now that we KNOW there is a ‘therapist’ involved… then WHO is it?
Is it just one MORE person associated with the ‘Fire Service’ who may or may not have their OWN damn agenda here?
Federal WFF Employees are actually ‘entitled’ to have paid-for sessions for PTSD with a ‘therapist’… but it has to be someone ‘contracted’ and/or ‘approved’ by the U.S. Forestry Service.
Brendan wasn’t ‘Federal’… but is it a similar situation?
Whoever his ‘therapist’ is ( right now ) might have some ‘ties’ to the either Arizona State Forestry or the U.S. Forestry Service… and he’s getting his ‘help’ ( cough, cough ) for free THAT way?
WTKTT – This is a very minor detail, but I know you are a stickler for those, so FYI…the word “Forestry” is commonly used is the titles of state forestry departments but it is the U.S. Forest Service. And I know when you say Forestry Service, it is like nails on a chalkboard for Forest Service employees (and even some former FS employees or USDA-Forest Service employees). I never stopped working for the USFS, they just stopped paying me.
Thank you, Gary. Yes. Very confusing… so forgive me now ( and in the future ) if I get confused about what ALL the different people who work for agencies that have the word “Forestry’ in their title actually like to call themselves.
In this case… I really could care less who is or isn’t annoyed.
What I’d like to know NOW is…
Since some stupid, unprofessional lawyers that work for the Arizona Attorney General’s office ( and are ‘tasked’ with representing ‘Arizona Forestry’ against ADOSH ) have unnecessarily broadcasted that a key witness in the case has a diagnosed medical treatment… and his ‘therapist’ is actually influencing the case proceedings…
…then WHO is that ‘therapist’ now ‘influencing the proceedings’?
Is it…
1) A ‘private’ therapist that has no association with any agency that has the word ‘Forestry’ or ‘Fire’ in their title… and he/she is working for Brendan ‘pro bono’ like (apparently) his lawyer ( Shapiro ) is?
2) A ‘therapist’ that has been ASSIGNED and/or CHOSEN for Brendan by some ‘agency’ and that ‘agency’ is footing the bill?
3) A ‘therapist’ who may or may not be associated with any ‘agency’ that has the word ‘Forestry’ or ‘Fire’ in its title… but IS associated with one of the ‘legal teams’… and that ‘legal team’ is ‘footing the bill’ for Brendan’s ‘therapy’?
4) A ‘therapist’ directly associated with Vicki Minor’s “Wildland Firefighter Foundation” and the bill for this ‘therapist’ is being paid through some ’employer/employee’ benefit situation?
5) None of the above?
It is the unprofessional behavior of the Arizona Forestry lawyers that has now made it common knowledge that this ‘therapist’ is the one who caused Brendan’s already-scheduled and arranged deposition to be ‘cancelled’ back on February 26.
Thanks to them… this ‘therapist’ him/herself has now become ‘part of the story’ that is playing out.
So at some point… the actual ‘affiliations’ and/or ‘loyalties’ of this ‘therapist’ him/herself needs to also become ‘part of the story’.
Once again… here is that single sentence from the recently published ALJ Hearing documents which proves beyond a shadow of a doubt that this mysterious ‘therapist’ is now having a direct influence on the progress of the “Arizona Forestry versus ADOSH” legal proceedings…
————————————————————
The parties had to postpone the deposition because Mr. McDonough’s therapist stated that it would adversely affect the therapist’s work and progress with Mr. McDonough.
————————————————————
Notice that there is NO mention there that ‘the parties’ even bothered to consult with Brendan McDonough himself about this.
It was/is the THERAPIST ‘running the show’.
Okay. Fine. Whatever.
So WHO IS this ‘therapist’ now ‘running the show’?
What are his/her credentials?
What are his/her affiliations and/or loyalties?
Who is PAYING this therapist?
Yes, I did contact OSHA with some additional information that is already in file but pointed it out in regards to recent topics.
Who are OSHA’s lawyers?
They left a fantastic detail message…thank you whoever you were but as many know my cell to retrieve messages come out spaced and choppy. Better to email so I get clear message.
I just pass Sonny as he types away on Brendan.
I saw again my name and he wrote I was excited about the fire storm and I said I watched it and not in excitement like fireworks; ugh.
Not accurate.
Again, long hikes that week.
I was tired and spent.
We had alerted everyone on the hill about the fire.
I was at ease watching the fire.
I did not see the danger like Sonny.
Sonny is really a rugged mountain man and knows storms and lightning and fires by life experiences and I did not see the harm when he took off the longer way because at 1:11pm I felt I had plenty of time to get to the cattle pond than to McCrary’s than to Foothill UNTIL we saw videos and it covers a fire over by McCrary and Paul Silvia’s so nowadays I want more aerial footage from 1-4pm in that area to determine my own danger as Sonny feels we were in danger I stand strong saying I need more fact based information before I share such a detail.
I saw video but I need a time stamp on that video and very very curious HOW that fire began by Paul Silvia, very curious. So curious I hope the person out there reading this understands my curiosity on it. That does not add up. Hearing homeowners accounts do not add up to SAIR. Another odd thing, not one of these lawyers or investigators hiked even the community with us where we can point out where and who we saw these accounts from…I mean if I am investigating it I want every tiny detail…
WTKT covered Donut well. Certainly a counselor would want him to get the truth out there so he could relieve the pressure of knowing he is doing a great disservice to his fellow firefighters by keeping back the truth of what he knows about the fire. Keeping vital information to this investigation hidden in his sub conscious mind will only haunt his psyche and may even evidence itself in other illnesses. I do have a BA in psychology and masters in religion backed by two years of graduate studies in counseling and educational psychology. Whew would I ever advise to get these things off his back–the sooner the better. Yes some will be badly hurt by the facts, especially those who know it and want it hidden; however, the honoralble thing will benefit the majority of the loved ones and even more crucial is the fact it will show the errors that were committed in this atrocity.
Joy’s shirt logo says “Change the ways they fight wildfires” and “remember 6-30-13”. She has that right, and to sweep the truth under the rug here is bound to cost lives, money and resources if future methods alike what we saw in the Yarnell hoot-nanny.
Joy did call OSHA and received thanks from their attorneys. Donut was indeed in dire danger even before we left the fire scene from the location he was planted at during the time we were there on the two track, I think he did not, or someone did not know how much danger he was in but from where he was below the grader on that little hill in Harper Canyon.
What I saw when that fire exploded not far from him should have been a signal to get out of harms way in a hurry, yet he had determined to go to the old grader spot, I suppose because it has some clearing–perhaps 30 ft. at most around it. Well that was not enough since the old dried rubber on that old grader caught fire from the intense heat coming from beyond the 30 foot clearing. Old tin cans that were lead sealed near the clearing had the lead melted from the seal, so if that ATV had not appeared, Donut would have been among the deceased.
Oddly, we witnessed a wildfire that no amount of ground pounders could have stopped, yet neither Donut nor those men seemed to sense the danger they were in. Even Joy had her boots off watching the fire storm when I returned to retrieve her from where I hoped she would still be. Maybe the site was too much like the fireworks you see in big cities–mesmerizing. Add the heat of the day and stress of exhaustion and Dr. Ted Putnam’s expressions of the psychological factors in firefighting come to light. It certainly stands to reason that had those men been of sober thinking that day, no amount of cajoling or strict adherence to the wild fire sign that says to be a hot shot you must “strictly obey orders” have caused them to go down there.
Strictly Obey Orders meant to disobey all safety rules in this case and caused their deaths. Who gave those strict orders remains in question at this time, yet Sonny here believes that Marsh and Steed were lower men on the chain of command. When Nixon denied any order involving the White Water incident, or Obama in the latest episode of passing the buck, it is obvious they were covering their tracks
Hear now:. Dead men don’t talk–yet they do.
Reply to Sonny post on April 17, 2015 at 11:46 am
>> Sonny said…
>>
>> WTKT covered Donut well. Certainly a counselor would
>> want him to get the truth out there so he could relieve
>> the pressure of knowing he is doing a great disservice
>> to his fellow firefighters by keeping back the truth of
>> what he knows about the fire.
Well… what we CERTAINLY know now ( thanks to the unprofessional behavior of the Arizona Forestry lawyers ) is that THIS particular ‘therapist’ ( whoever he or she really is ) definitely did NOT want his/her client ( Brendan ) to “get the truth out” back on February 26, 2015.
We also know for CERTAIN ( due to recent mainstream media articles ), that back in the last part of 2014… Brendan McDonough himself very much DID want to “get the truth out” and he wanted all these people who keep pretending to be his “friends” and “advisers” to help him do that the the RIGHT and PROPER way ( via a sworn deposition ).
So somewhere between November 26 of 2014 and just prior to February 26, 2015 ( just 90 days )… everything changed… and it appears to all be on the advice of just one mysterious ‘therapist’.
>> Sonny also wrote…
>>
>> Keeping vital information to this investigation hidden in
>> his subconscious mind will only haunt his psyche and
>> may even evidence itself in other illnesses. I do have a
>> BA in psychology and masters in religion backed by
>> two years of graduate studies in counseling and
>> educational psychology.
>>
>> Whew would I ever advise to get these things off his
>> back–the sooner the better.
I have none of those ‘degrees’… and I am in no position to tell any ‘therapist’ how they are supposed to do THEIR job… but I, myself, would still like to see the reasoning on the part of any ( supposed ) therapist as to why it would NOT be a good idea for Brendan to tell “the whole TRUTH, and nothing BUT the TRUTH”… as he should have done in the first place… and as he has recently said he WANTS to do.
That is what we are being asked to believe, now.
That some (supposedly?) licensed and trained therapist does NOT think it is a good idea to let his/her client do what they have already SAID they WANT to do.
It begs the questions… WHO is this ‘therapist’ now actually controlling the agenda of an Arizona legal proceeding… and WHAT are his/her ‘affiliations’ and or ‘loyalties’ in this matter?
Is this ‘therapist’ associated, in any way, with either the Prescott Fire Department, Arizona Forestry, or even the U.S. Forestry Service?
Is Brendan McDonough REALLY getting the competent, independent professional help he needs at this point… or is the poor guy still buried up to his neck in OTHER people’s AGENDAS?
>> Sonny also said…
>>
>> Yes some will be badly hurt by the facts, especially those
>> who know it and want it hidden; however, the honorable
>> thing will benefit the majority of the loved ones and even
>> more crucial is the fact it will show the errors that were
>> committed in this atrocity.
There can be no full LEARNING without the TRUTH.
The families of most of ‘the fallen’ know that… and have stated over and over and over again that they want to know the full TRUTH… no matter what it is. They have gone to great trouble to file lawsuits with the specific expressed intent of ‘discovering’ the TRUTH.
To ignore THEIR wishes is to be truly ( and actively ) ‘dishonoring the fallen’.
In a little conversation WTKTT and I were having regarding Native American thinking and physics downstream, WTKTT wrote:
“The ‘physicist’ in me is very aware of all that.
One of the most fundamental beliefs in most Native American religious belief systems is that we ( you, I, every living thing ) are not ‘separate’ from the environment we find ourselves in… we are, indeed, PART of it.”
This little conversation led me back into re-membering where I had my mind turned around regarding the significance of the fact that Native Americans (and possibly most other indigenous people) don’t have nouns (i.e.) THINGS in their vocabulary, thus in their worldview. Which is why they are in dialogue with physicists these days.
For three years I participated in this thing called SEED. It evolved out of conversations that took place in the early 1990s between some physicists and some Native Americans who were really interested/involved in SCIENCE.
SEED eventually located itself in Albuquerque. And, thus I participated in its annual conferences for three years, beginning in 2002. I can’t remember whether it was the 2002 gathering or the 2003 gathering, but one of them was either in the shadow of either 911 or the invasion of Iraq, which became “the question” we applied ourselves to. It was really quite intense.
Anyway, I went wandering off into YouTube today to see if I could find anything related to it. I did.
I am going to post some of the videos I found, in which this whole arena regarding the differences between, and also the dialogue between, Native American thinkers and scientists (especially physicists) are relatively succinctly described.
I’m doing this here for two reasons.
One of them is related to how I have been viewing this fire. As I have been watching these videos and thinking about how my involvement in SEED had a huge impact in my own thinking, I have been realizing how much my process of “modeling” this fire in my own head is influenced by what I learned via SEED.
The other reason is that, as I have been wandering around this whole thing over the past year, I have become more and more aware of how important have been the contributions of Native Americans in both fighting wildfires and working towards mitigating them in advance.
One of the things I really want to do this year is to study that even more. So as I watched some of the SEED videos today, I kept thinking, hmmmmmmm, is it possible that that different way of perceiving the Universe and the way things flux within it, might be worth paying attention to in the realm of handling the role of fire on the landscape and also corralling the ponies when they get out of control?
The first video I’m posting is a 21-minute talk by a man named Leroy Little Bear. He was one of the co-founders of SEED. He is Blackfeet, Canadian. In this talk he relatively consisely describes what I think is at the heart of this conversation that is known as SEED.
Indigenous Knowledge and Western Science: Dr. Leroy Little Bear Talk
“Published on Jan 14, 2015
Indigenous academic Leroy Little Bear compares the foundational base of Blackfoot knowledge to quantum physics to an attentive audience at The Banff Centre as part of the Indigenous Knowledge and Western Science: Contrasts and Similarities event.
Leroy Little Bear is a member of the Blood Tribe of the Blackfoot Confederacy. He has served as a legal and constitutional advisor to the Assembly of First Nations and has served on many influential committees, commissions, and boards dealing with First Nations issues. He is a faculty member of Indigenous Leadership and Management at The Banff Centre.
Little Bear has written several articles and co-edited three books including Pathways to Self-Determination: Canadian Indians and the Canadian State (1984), Quest for Justice: Aboriginal Peoples and Aboriginal Rights (1985), and Governments in Conflict and Indian Nations in Canada (1988). Little Bear is also contributor to Reclaiming Indigenous Voice and Vision (UBC Press, 2000). He has maintained a lifelong professional interest in the philosophy of science, especially theoretical physics, from a First Nations perspective.”
https://youtu.be/gJSJ28eEUjI
The next video I am posting is an interview with a Native
American scientist by the name of Phillip Duran, who also talks about the differences/similarities in Native-American and European-American thinking and science.
Phillip Duran at the SEED Language of Spirit Conference
“Uploaded on Apr 8, 2011
Video presented by the Foundation for Global Humanity (http://www.f4gh.org/home). Albuquerque based SEED Graduate Institute has hosted a meeting of the minds between quantum physicists, Native American scholars, and linguists to discuss the underlying principles of the Universe, based on a mutual respect for their differences in worldviews. The format followed the late David Bohm’s work “On Dialogue”.
Phillip H. Duran, descendent of the Tigua Indians (not enrolled), earned B.S. and M.S. degrees at the University of Texas at El Paso, where he also conducted physics research, developed computer software, and taught courses in physics, mathematics, computer assembler language, and computer science. He currently resides in Rio Rancho, NM as an independent author, lecturer, and consultant. He is Vice President of the board of directors of Hamaatsa, a Native non-profit organization, assisting in the establishment of an eco-retreat center and indigenous learning model whose purpose is to promote spiritural wholeness and healing systems from traditional cultures and to revive indigenous life-ways and sustainable land stewardship principles for restoring our world.”
https://youtu.be/4W_5u6gRJpI
The next video I am posting is from that of a Non-Native-American by the name of Matthew Bronson, who speaks of how these interactions via SEED have impacted his thinking. There is a longer 2-part video available of this, but I’m posting the shorter, more succinct one.
Matthew Bronson interview at SEED Language of Spirit Conference
“Uploaded on Jun 18, 2010
Video presented by the Foundation for Global Humanity (http://www.f4gh.org). Albuquerque based SEED Graduate Institute has hosted a meeting of the minds between quantum physicists, Native American scholars, and linguists to discuss the underlying principles of the Universe, based on a mutual respect for their differences in worldviews. The format followed the late David Bohm’s work “On Dialogue”.
Matthew C. Bronson, Ph.D., is Associate Professor in the Department of Social and Cultural Anthropology and Director of Academic Assessment at the California Institute of Integral Studies in San Francisco. He is also a teacher educator at the University of California, Davis specializing in preparing high school teachers to respond to linguistic and cultural diversity.”
https://youtu.be/aNZThSgDDJE
And, finally, I am posting a much long speech given by Leroy Little Bear, at the Heard Museum in 2011 (published by Arizona State University) in which he goes into MUCH greater detail about the topics he discussed in the video above.
Leroy Little Bear: Native Science and Western Science (Video)
“The Library Channel is pleased to present the seventh installment of The Simon Ortiz and Labriola Center Lecture on Indigenous Land, Culture, and Community. Leroy Little Bear, Head of the SEED Graduate Institute, former Director of the American Indian Program at Harvard University and Professor Emeritus of Native Studies at the University of Lethbridge delivers his lecture Native Science and Western Science: Possibilities for a Powerful Collaboration.
Professor Little Bear believes now is the time for a collaboration between “Western Science” and “Indigenous Knowledge.” In the lecture he discusses the tenants or foundation of Indigenous thought and compares them to the Western paradigm. It is time to tap Indigenous knowledge as native languages can explain things that are paradoxes in English – such as “dynamics without motion” where Indigenous language explains nature without depending on the other language of math.
………
Delving even further he discusses the holistic, Native paradigm where everything is in flux (moving, changing) existing in energy waves. The energy waves are referred to as spirit. Everything is animate – so everything has spirit and is related. In that flux there are regular patterns that humans seek out to renew and sustain themselves.”
https://lib.asu.edu/librarychannel/2011/05/16/ep114_littlebear
There is a Blackfeet Interagency Hotshot Crew based in Browning, Montana, near Glacier National Park.
Fire Warriors. Chief Mountain Hot Shots. Directed by Darren Kipp
“Published on May 13, 2014
Fire Warriors. The film crew from 360 Degree Films spends 21 days on the fire line with the Chief Mountain Hot Shots from the Blackfeet Indian Nation during the most dangerous fire season in recorded history. The Chief Mountain Hot Shots are recognized as one of the best wild land fire fighting crews in the United States. The project brought together filmmakers George Burdeau, Robert DeMarce, Jeff Gritz, Andy George, Greg Ives, Darren Kipp, and Sam Mowry. Instrumental in the development of the project was legendary filmmaker Phil Lucas. Fire Warriors documents the strength and hard work of the Chief Mountain Hot Shots and is dedicated to all the fire fighters who never give up.”
https://youtu.be/Mg2hVB8llcs
Looks like more legal papers have shown up in the ALJ hearing file.
The State and ADOSH legal arguments.
Also the State wants to drop the portion on McDonough so he will not have to testify
some due to his mental state.
Sounds like the tribunal is making no headway in any agreements.
Reply to Bob Powers post on April 15, 2015 at 1:30 pm
>> Bob Powers said…
>>
>> Looks like more legal papers have shown up in the ALJ hearing file.
Direct link to the new document ( posted just a few hours ago )…
Filename: “2015_04 Updated 04.13.15.pdf”
https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B6N47Z5CNR-CbkFYZ3FlQ1ptNEU/edit?pli=1
The file was created 2 days ago… but only ‘uploaded’ today.
>> Bob Powers said…
>>
>> Also the State wants to drop the portion on McDonough so he will not have
>> to testify some due to his mental state.
Yes… but they are only seeking to ‘minimize’ what he has to testify to.
They are still acknowledging that his testimony is important.
We also now finally learn WHY the already-scheduled February 26, 2015 under-oath deposition was cancelled. ( Actually… the lawyers now just say it has been ‘postponed’,
meaning they still plan on re-scheduling it ).
It was because McDonough’s therapist didn’t want it to happen.
From the document itself…
———————————————————————————-
According to counsel for Mr. McDonough and Mr. McDonough’s therapist,
Mr. McDonough is suffering from post-traumatic stress disorder (“PTSD”)
arriving out of his involvement and survival of the Fire. Mr. McDonough’s
deposition was scheduled previously, but the parties had to postpone
the deposition because Mr. McDonough’s therapist stated that it would
adversely affect the therapist’s work and progress with Mr. McDonough.
Mr. McDonough’s testimony is important, but the extent to which he
must recount the events surrounding the Fire should be minimized.
———————————————————————————-
So here we see the Arizona Forestry lawyers trying to tell Judge Mosesso that Brendan has been OFFICIALLY diagnosed with “PTSD”… but without providing any letter from any therapist or doctor to back up their claim. That actually makes it “hearsay” on their part.
They are asking Judge Michael A. Mosesso to basically just “take their word for it” and make critical decisions ( in their favor ) in the case proceedings based on just that.
>> Bob Powers also wrote…
>>
>> Sounds like the tribunal is making no headway in any agreements.
Correct. There is NO SIGN of any ‘settlement’ here.
I haven’t finished reading the whole thing yet… but it’s really seems to just be a continuation of Arizona Forestry’s previously filed motions requesting Judge Mosesso to go ahead and DISMISS some of the ADOSH citations as ‘baseless’.
In particular… they want Judge Mosesso to dismiss the part where ADOSH established that Brendan McDonough himself was put in “danger of injury or death” that day.
Arizona Forestry says this is ‘baseless’ and not supported by any evidence.
Yea, right.
Brendan himself told ADOSH he was ‘looking for a place to deploy’ right around the moment when Brian Frisby ACCIDENTALLY stumbled across him and was then able to basically save his life that day.
Mike Dudley, the Co-Lead of the SAIT investigation… has also stated publicly ( on June 20, 2014 ) that if Brendan had not ACCIDENTALLY been rescued by Frisby that there is (his words) “No doubt Brendan would have been another casualty that day”.
The Arizona Forestry lawyers are also basically trying to tell Judge Mosesso what his JOB is… and that even though this isn’t even a ‘civil court case’… that he has the right to issue ‘dispositive orders’ and drop some/all of the ADOSH citations before even the evidential hearings take place.
NOTE: A ‘dispositive’ motion or order means what you would think. It is intended to DISPOSE of something… like some/all of the ADOSH citations.
This kind of “here’s how we think you should do your job” shit from the Arizona Forestry lawyers probably isn’t going to fly too many kites, here.
It’s pretty arrogant… and Judge Mosesso might even have a BAD reaction to being ‘lectured’ in this manner as to what his duties and responsibilities are.
I’m still reading the rest of this new ALJ Hearing document.
More later.
PS: The ‘recent’ media articles revealing that Brendan McDonough has only recently ‘inquired’ about a possible ‘medical disability pension’ actually fit right into the TIMING of this new back-and-forth between the Arizona Forestry lawyers and Judge Mosesso.
Even if Brendan KNEW he didn’t have a chance in hell of obtaining this ‘medical disablility’… the act of ‘inquiring about it’ itself became a piece of NEWS which now SUPPORTS the claims the Arizona Forestry lawyers are making to Judge Mosesso.
Simply ‘inquiring about’ or even actually ‘applying’ for a ‘medical disability’ is by no means proof you actually HAVE one… but it does make it look like you MIGHT.
It would not surprise me at all that if Arizona Forestry now just expects Judge Mosesso to “take their word for it” that Brendan has full-blown PTSD… and they want the Judge to make rulings in THEIR favor because of it…
…that Judge Mosesso could shoot right back and ask them to PROVE what they are just asking him to (simply) believe.
Followup…
The Arizona Forestry lawyers seem to have totally forgotten that it wasn’t just the ADOSH investigators that concluded that Brendan McDonough came VERY close to losing his life that day.
SAIT Co-Lead Mike Dudley had already come to the same conclusion months before that.
There had never been any doubt in Dudley’s mind that if Brian Frisby hadn’t ACCIDENTALLY stumbled across Brendan when he did… and was then able to ‘rescue’ Brendan… that Brendan would have been the ‘first fatality’ that day.
Here is exactly what SAIT Co-Lead Mike Dudley told that roomful of firefighters in Utah on June 20, 2014…
SAIT Co-Lead Mike Dudley…
———————————————————————–
The Blue Ridge superintendent… he was drivin’ the UTV… he’s picking
up the lookout… he’s getting his crew ready to bail out… he’s gathering
them up… and he knows he’s gotta move his buggies and Granite
Mountain’s buggies… so he’s multi-tasking through this process as
he’s tryin’ to have this communication.
I will also say… that if he had not come around the corner at the
time that he did… the lookout woulda been the first fatality.
Guaranteed.
There was NO place for that lookout to have safely
deployed… and he was WAY too close when he decided to
bail out from where the fire was.
———————————————————————-
I don’t know what to say.
I don’t like the looks of this at all. Everybody is just jerking out their own agendas on him. It makes my stomach turn.
OF COURSE he has PTSD. Nobody in their right mind wouldn’t.
You wrote a little ways down below:
“That just increases my concerns at to whether anyone is REALLY ‘watching’ him closely and is REALLY concerned about HIS welfare… and not their OWN agendas.”
I’ve felt that way since about day one, As you know. That’s why I’ve had a hard time coming down as hard as some others have come down upon him.
And that’s why I mentioned the “surviver guilt” thing down below that Doug helped me recognize and begin to deal with because he went through his own hell with that. LIke seriously. This is really serious stuff.
Like I said, that might have saved my life. As in “been there, done that.”
I even just looked at Twitter, and he hasn’t posted anything since he said “Hello Twitter!” 37 days ago.
And, yeah, I’m seriously wondering about the whole thing regarding WFF. Maybe they’re aware and doing something to support Brendan besides paying him and………maybe they’re not.
My next thought is that if my daughter were in something like Brendan’s shoes, I just don’t know. But I think she would come to me. I would hope so.
We’ve always had our ups and downs, but I’ve always been there on the other end of the phone for her no matter what.
Which leads me to what kind of relationship does he have with his parents, the mother of his child, is he floating around in space without any kind of genuine support from them????
Between this crappola and that of the USFS, whatever any of them say about lah dee dah SAFETY is just oh SO IMPORTANT…..
I just might be at a place where I may never believe one iota of that apparent BS ever again.
Which also is connected to my totally cynical feelings about those oooh-la-la shelters. Which is a whole NUTHER deal.
I don’t pray much. But I have, I think, a whole lot of, all things considered, a pretty good collection of angels. I’m sending them out in the direction of Prescott.
Federal WFFs are ‘entitled’ to have ‘paid-for’ sessions with a ‘therapist’ if there is evidence of work-related PTSD… but that ‘therapist’ has to be ‘approved’ and/or ‘selected’ by the U.S. Forestry Service.
Now that we KNOW Brendan is seeing a ‘therapist’ ( thanks to the unprofessional Arizona State Forestry lawyers )… could it be a similar situation for Brendan.
Brendan was not ‘Federal’…. but could his ‘arrangement’ be similar?
He is getting his ‘therapy’ paid-for by either Prescott Fire Department and/or Arizona Forestry ( or maybe even U.S. Forestry anyway )… but the ‘therapist’ is of THEIR choosing… and not HIS?
In other words… is it possible even this ‘therapist’ might have ‘ties’ to the Fire Service and might even have his/her OWN damn ‘agenda’ and/or ‘loyalties’?
Gary Olson-
the person who comments on article…
Gaelyn Olmsted, the Geogypsy
Here is her blog and her story is on there on Yarnell Hill Fire.
geogypsytraveler.c o m /category/places-ive-been/united-states/arizona/yarnell/
She stayed on widowed/retired Roberta Era’s property that burned down (Lakewood Dr)
I will never stop encouraging people who were AT the YHF or resided there in that community to share your accounts no matter how tiny it is…
I may not pop on here much and I may be out caving and doing other things but indeed every moment I even try to think I am away from the YHF and its aftermath God tells me WHO has the plan as once stated somewhere in regards to the YHF that God has the plan.
Now, I am in the library trying to get Sonny’s laptop to work and I noticed him typing away and a I passed by I did not want to disturb him but saw my name mentioned…ugh. I truly have stayed away to avoid my name used here directly or by another so no more further tangles can be made (recently only for 2015 commented/thanked Mr. Winston for his purity and sharing on here; we need much more like him on here)…it seems he is typing about the back burns. We are hiking pals. We saw that fire from different perceptions. I am going to directly state if you GO BACK to October 2013 archives where my journey first began on here…re-read the many rambles than you will see as time unfolded from October 2013 through December 2014 that I indeed wrote everything as it happened and my view on that topic is already journaled on here . Someone thinks I have been on Investigative Media since the start and not true. We were sent a link to the article after we did a hike with John Dougherty in the Fall 2013 and I left the site at the start of this year. We made inquiries and as well answered people’s questions October 2013 article and just popped on here and there after that. This site is not viewed by some as a good thing yet I have never denied hikes and always been upfront and available to the world in regards to the YHF and who the hikers are and why we were on the Weavers…I am sorry this site is not viewed as I view it- A PLACE OF FREEDOM OF SPEECH- (to an extent)…I know FROM THIS SITE, I learned a valuable lesson. I also think of this site as Marti Reed calls—campfire discussions—a place to go when you want to know what is new on the YHF. It has had its ups and downs…and before the fire you would only find me on hike Arizona or zazzle and I am not an internet gal so I learned this discussion on fire and all its details mainly from here and the people God led to us. We learned what division was even from people we hiked to people even on here. My hardest lesson was learning agendas and angles and also people telling hikers stuff but not investigators because they are afraid to lose their jobs, etc…Sad.
In direct to what Sonny is writing about. Yes, last Summer I did see photos and video that made it appear to be a back burn and YES I heard locals accounts yet their accounts have never been further investigated. Yes, I hiked with many but a few who “knew” the GMHS dearly and now for the woozy that has Sonny thinking of this right now most likely… We have not been on this site in recent months yet behind the scenes it is obvious God has the plan and in due time we will share all the people God LED TO US since 2015 to now to OSHA/John Dougherty and some on here/Dr. Ted Putnam. We have discussed this as eyewitness hikers on the YHF and because John Dougherty has kept this thread alive and strong he will be first than the others I just mentioned. If John decides he wants to do an article on the news we will not tell anyone else and let him have his story.
I hope everyone is doing well—
Enjoy your Spring!
I have to go see what Sonny wrote…I have to state this that a lot of the historical moments on this site I kept coming back just for that to see what he wrote because I do correct areas needed as WHO WANTS TO KNOW THE TRUTH knows that about me from back to the beginnings that was all I was doing…smiles.
Thank you Joy.
I’m so glad you posted this here, Joy!! So glad you are up and about and doing your thing!!
I really loved reading Gaelyn Olmsted, the Geogypsy’s blog, one part of which I actually tweeted out last night. (Even though she uses a Nikon for her AWESOME photography, my FAVORITE being that one of the Weaver Mountains shrouded in clouds as that February storm covered the southwest — I DO remember that storm!!)
You wrote:
“In direct to what Sonny is writing about. Yes, last Summer I did see photos and video that made it appear to be a back burn and YES I heard locals accounts yet their accounts have never been further investigated.”
I have to admit two things regarding what both you and Sonny are writing about.
1). I haven’t seen any visual evidence of this, as WTKTT is also saying he hasn’t, either. But then, as you say, we haven’t seen everything.
2). I have been harboring, on a shelf in a closet with only the door slightly cracked. something of what might be considered a “conspiracy theory” about this.
I spent some time, periodically, contemplating the fact that, as I “looked at,” in various ways, where the crews were during that crucial 3:30ish to 4:30ish time period, I mostly couldn’t come up with anybody that’s on the official rosters (or even the unofficial ones i.e. the “Prescotteers”), who would/could have been on the ground in a place where they could/would have been doing any back-burning.
Except, as I have been really hesitant to say this, the two fire-fighters by the name of Rance Marquez and Cougan Carothers, which is WHY I have, periodically, written that it really bothers me that their testimony to ADOSH doesn’t match the EVIDENCE that I have been able to discern via the visual files.
Those are the only people in the corral of people involved in this fire whose locations at that time are, in my humble opinion, questionable.
I’m not saying they decided to go somewhere and light a back-fire. I’m just saying that, since their testimony doesn’t match the visual records we have at this point. I’ve been, all along, wondering about that.
And who knows??????
As I have studied a whole lot of wildfires this past year, I’ve seen that a LOT of CIVILIANS who may or may not KNOW BETTER have periodically decided to take matters into their own hands and done back-burns themselves.
That happened quite a bit in Washington last summer/fall during the conflagration known as the Carlton Complex.
So, yeah, I think this is an important question. And I agree with WTKTT that where we are currently at remains shrouded in mystery.
I would say having seen other fires close to towns and homes that people without knowledge will some times set back fires. Having said that I would also clarify that those fires are usually in close proximity to houses and property.
While not normally well planed or of any danger to others they would blind in with the main fire and smoke column.
Fire Fighters on the other hand would not set large back fires with out some coordination or in a dire emergency. To my knowledge no back firing was reported by Fire fighters when the fire blew up they were all moving out to safety.
on the north and east sides of the fire. There was no time to fire the cat line.
My personal opinion is if there were seperiate smoke columns they were coming from spot fires that quickly were engulfed by the main fire.
The Humidity, Temperatures, fuel moisture and wind were highly probable for spot fires when the fire started making runs. In peoples Valley and Yarnell as well as Glen Isla spot fire were probably causing havoc in the residential areas where there was brush and grass and flammable materials on homes.
Again I doubt that any back fires would have threatened Fire Fighters but were last minuet ditch efforts for some people trying to save homes and they would have stayed to long at that point to have survived the fire. So highly unlikely.
I need to make a correction. I wrote:
“I mostly couldn’t come up with anybody that’s on the official rosters (or even the unofficial ones i.e. the “Prescotteers”), who would/could have been on the ground in a place where they could/would have been doing any back-burning.”
That’s not quite true. Darrell Willis’ Structure Protection Group DID do a backfire off of Model Creek Road starting around 3:30ish PM. And, yes, as Bob Powers wrote, that was all coordinated by Willis and “signed off” by Paul Musser, who was there personally on the ground at the start of it.
That might be what Sonny is referring to when he noted back-firing near Peeples Valley.
And thanks, Bob, for the reminder that what people could have been seeing was spot fires. That makes a lot of sense.
It makes way more sense than my “conspiracy theory,” so I’ll scratch Marquez and Cougan off the list, even though I STILL wonder why their narrative doesn’t match the evidence.
Especially, given all the detail Rance went into via his “notes” and his interview.
I confess I have had something of a hard time distinguishing “back-burn” from “burn-out,” as a newbie.
Back Burn/Burnout—-They are the same depends on terminology verses
new safer terminology..
Back Burn—Burning fuel between a line and the fire as the fire approaches
Burn out— Burning fuel to increase safe area before fire approaches but within the fire lines or planed fire area.
They don’t like to say back fire any more.
If you are interested, here is a very powerful short piece written by someone who has followed and written about the Yarnell Hill Fire from the very beginning.
http://www.christinanealson.blogspot.com/
Thanks Gary—
Thank you, Gary. Yes. Very poignant, moving… and very well written.
I agree with the author that that ‘stone monument’ is ‘out of scale’.
It is TOO BIG, too close to the tree, and if it is true that it is just all about Granite Mountain and doesn’t even bother to really talk about the actual historical significance of the tree itself… then that is unfortunate and doesn’t really establish the significance of what they did there.
And the solar-powered plastic angel is just… well… a little weird.
Someone told me “There’s a concrete “monument” in front of the tree now. Waaaaay larger than it needs to be, as if someone is working out their guilt”
I tend to agree with this assessment..
Reply to Gary Olson post on April 14, 2015 at 9:40 pm
>> Gary said…
>>
>> Someone told me “There’s a concrete “monument” in front
>> of the tree now. Waaaaay larger than it needs to be, as if
>> someone is working out their guilt”
>>
>> I tend to agree with this assessment..
So that got me wondering… WHO put this thing there… and WHEN?
Best I can find out… it was sponsored by the U.S. Forestry Service and they started working on it about a week before the first anniversary of the Yarnell Hill Fire tragedy.
The following story came out on the very day of the 1 year anniversary of the tragedy.
It details a ‘visit’ that Prescott College Environmental Studies Professor Doug made to the tree along with some of his students and they ‘accidentally’ ran in Brendan McDonough there at the tree.
It was not planned. Apparently… Brendan has simply been THERE at the tree by himself and he had no idea that ‘group’ would find him there.
It also puts a timestamp on when that ‘concrete monument’ was actually being installed… and WHO was doing it.
It was the U.S. Forestry Service… and they had started working on it just about a week before the first anniversary of the tragedy.
It was Bradshaw District Ranger Linda Jackson who is talking about the ‘monument’ in the article and it may have been mostly her idea, perhaps along with Prescott Forest Fire Staff Officer Pete Gordon.
The Prescott Daily Courier
Hotshot tribute: Community memorializes Hotshots in variety of ways
Pulblished 6/30/2014 6:01:00 AM
http://dcourier.com/main.asp?SectionID=1&SubSectionID=1&ArticleID=133328
From the article…
————————————————————————————
“It’s become kind of a living memorial,” said Hulmes, who recently took a group of visiting Norwegian students to the tree to help document it.
While there, Hulmes’ group ran into surviving Granite Mountain Hotshot Brendan McDonough, who explained to the students the Hotshots’ role in saving the tree.
Hulmes said he heard later from students who referred to their visit to the juniper tree as the most memorable part of their trip.
This past week, a U.S. Forest Service crew was working at the site of the tree to build a concrete plaque that would further memorialize the Hotshots’ history with the mammoth juniper.
Bradshaw District Ranger Linda Jackson said the plaque will explain the Hotshots’ dedication to the tree. “It tells the story of what they did out there, and why,” she said.
“The tree was really important to them, and (saving it) was one of the last things they did with us,” Jackson added. “Knowing how important the saving of that tree was, we wanted to honor them by displaying a plaque there. It will be in memory of them.”
Forest Service Fire Staff Officer Pete Gordon emphasized the emotional attachment the Forest Service has with the tree, and he urges any visitors to “tread lightly.”
“This is more than just a tree,” Gordon said. “We ask people to please, please respect the environmental conditions. We’re worried about the tree being stressed.”
————————————————————————————
Followup…
This has nothing to do with the ‘concrete monument’ at the tree… but while searching around I found this other ‘interesting’ story about people doing visits to the tree… and calling them ‘pilgrimages’…. and then performing ‘ceremonies’ there…
Walt Anderson’s story of a ‘pilgrimage’ ( his word ) he led to the Juniper Tree exactly one year ago on this date ( April 14, 2013 ).
He and about 30 others held some kind of ‘ceremony’ there where they were picking cards out of a deck at random and then reading off the name on the card. The cards alternated between names of Granite Mountain Hotshots and the names of tree species that have become extinct… or something like that.
A little weird… but it’s well written…
http://www.geolobo.com/?p=500
CORRECTION… Typo up above.
Walt Anderson’s self-described ‘pilgrimage’ to the Juniper Tree with about 30 other people happened on April 14, 2014… and not April 14, 2013 as I typed above. It was exactly one year ago from TODAY.
Again… that article is here…
GEOLOBO – The Personal Website of Walt Anderson
Article Title: The Hotshots & the Juniper
http://www.geolobo.com/?p=500
I actually hadn’t noticed this before… but apparently the same Prescott Professor named Doug Hulmes was also on THIS ‘pilgrimage’ to the tree… and he actually ends up telling the SAME story to Doug Hulmes and the others about how when he, himself, led some students to the tree on a previous occasion… they accidentally encountered Brendan McDonough there at the tree already.
From the article…
————————————————————-
When we reach the two trailheads at the end of the fire road, the rules change. We walk the final mile to the ancient juniper in complete silence. There is an air of anticipation.
We reach the revered juniper, pausing in the burned area to the north. Here Doug Hulmes, Prescott College professor and champion of sacred trees, explains how he and a group of students from Norway chanced to encounter the sole surviving member of the Granite Mountain Hotshots at this very tree not long ago.
————————————————————
Crap… another TYPO up above.
I type Professor Doub Hulmes name TWICE and the second time it should have been the name Walt Anderson.
On this ‘pilgrimage’ to the Juniper tree… it was Doug Hulmes himself telling his story TO Walt Anderson and the others about having accidentally met Brendan McDonough there at the tree ( by himself ) on a previous occasion.
Actually, that ceremony is not all that “weird.”
(I do think that angel is weird, though, but then, …… it’s also kind of “Prescott-weird.”)
I have also worked with Michael Dowd and, to a lesser extent, Connie Barlow.
One name for this “field” is “Ecological Spirituality.” It’s about understanding and celebrating the sacredness of nature. It’s not a new thing these days, but……….
In the early 1980’s, when I was the Minister at First Congregational Church in Flagstaff, I was at something of the forefront of this, at that time, “movement.”
I felt like I was almost alone in the Universe. Creation Spirituality was a very very very new thing to “The Church.” Doug was one of the people who supported my work, and Michael was one of my, I guess you could say, long-distance “mentors.”
The Paul Winter Consort (at that time the Artists in Residence at St. John the Divine Cathedral in New York City), when they were making their awesome recordings on the Colorado River and around the Grand Canyon, would come to my church and we would do services together.
Their “Missa Gaia” (Earth Mass) was both a breakthrough into understanding and freedom and a big massive juniper tree, I guess you could say, for me.
It rooted everything I was doing, from leading “sacred journeys” into the Grand Canyon, to doing outdoor wedding and memorial ceremonies all around Northern Arizona, to trying to stop a uranium mine on the south side of the Grand Canyon.
I had the following of every “environmentalist” (including some of the the pros at NAU — and the river-runners, too!) in the area.
It was only the Trustees who, ahem, weren’t so happy with me, because the “environmentalists” didn’t have the big incomes to fill the meager church coffers.
In those days, doing what the narrative you have pointed describes, with/for/in honor of the Great-Grandmother Juniper and “her boys” would have been second-nature for me, but definitely “weird” in the eyes of many.
These days, in Northern Arizona, as well as a lot of other places, it happens all the time.
And, speaking of “Evolutionary” Creation Spirituality (as opposed to the fundamentalist thing called “Creationism” which fundamentalists think should be taught instead of scientific evolutionary theory)……
I also later wrote for Lowell Observatory, having been hired by someone who had been a member of my church when I was the Minister. I wrote about stuff like cosmic astronomical evolution, something else that most people had/still have a hard time with because it was/is a radical departure from everything they had been taught about the Universe and their place in it.
I know because it even really shook up MY cosmology, and, I had been a student of evolution from probably birth (given who my father was),
I/we also folded that evolutionary cosmology into Creation Spirituality (the other key person in this arena being Matthew Fox) we were “evolving.”
I could go on and on about this. I did that, professionally, for 35 years.
It probably even played a part in that moment when I “saw” that camera sitting there in the middle of that Deployment Site and KNEW it was trying to tell me something important.
Kyrie from the Missa Gaia (Earth Mass):
“The Alaskan tundra wolf whose voice this Kyrie was based on, sings the same four-note howl seven times in an interval known as the tritone – the sax, tenor solo voices and chorus answering. The double-bell rhythm comes from Ghana.”
https://youtu.be/RDOe52U-oXY
Along those same lines, this, done by me while I spent the summer of 2010 citizen-investigating the intervention into the Deepwater Horizon catastrophe:
“Ocean Intervention Rov 2 Swims Through the Fish”
“On her very last day at the Deepwater Horizon Well Site, Ocean Intervention Rov 2 Dives and Surfaces Through Stunning Schools of Fish
With music by the Paul Winter Consort, “Sea Joy,” from the album named “Callings.””
These are my very very favorite robots (speaking of robots, as y’all conversed about downstream) on the entire planet. I experienced the bottom of the one-mile-deep Gulf of Mexico through their eyes for seven and a half months.
The combination of unspeakable joy and unspeakable tragedy is so well accompanied by this music from the Paul Winter Consort.
https://youtu.be/F3BMaEZTTyM
19 people died here, too, almost exactly five years ago.
I just had to share this kind of stuff to ritually counteract “Tax Day.”
LOL. Yes. Speaking of ‘rituals’.
This annual one where massive amounts of money are collected only from people who aren’t rich enough to hire the right people who can HIDE their income is a real doozy.
Bingo!
So it’s really really late, and I may regret writing this but, just to set the record straight.
I almost married Doug, and maybe should have. He’s an amazing guy.
I’m pretty sure he doesn’t like that piece of ugly concrete any better than we do.
And, now that I’ve said that, and am thinking about that……
He should be the one “counseling” Brendan.
Having been through the experience himself, he was the person who taught me about “surviver guilt.”
That probably saved my life.
Marti… thank you for all the comments above.
When I said ‘a little weird’… I was referring to the ‘ceremony’ itself, and not anyone’s ‘beliefs’ or ‘motivations’.
Pulling cards from a deck just sounds like something the Masons would do… and I find the ‘ceremonies’ they do a little ‘weird’, also.
The ‘beliefs’ you are describing all sound very ‘Native American’ ish… and I have no problem with that.
It would do us ALL good to remember that this is the only planet we have.
I think saying/writing it as “pulling cards from a deck” is just kind of an unfortunate way of saying it.
It’s just a common way of doing something in a random order.
And, yes, I/we were heavily “shaped” by both Native American and Buddhist “thinking.”
Regarding the Native American side of that, it got/gets a bit tricky in regards to “exploitive cultural appropriation.”
That was then, and still is, a HUGE issue.
Fortunately, I was VERY CAREFULLY trained by the International Indian Treaty Council, who had a vested interest in me not screwing things up and me teaching other people how to not screw things up, either.
But it can get dicey.
So, yes.
Speaking of which.
Are you aware that Native American “cosmology,” and thus language, includes no things/nouns?
That’s why there’s been a great conversation going on over the last ten years between indigenous folks and physicists.
They understand the same things almost exactly in the same ways.
Well… as long as we are sharing… yes… I am.
The ‘physicist’ in me is very aware of all that.
One of the most fundamental beliefs in most Native American religious belief systems is that we ( you, I, every living thing ) are not ‘separate’ from the environment we find ourselves in… we are, indeed, PART of it.
Most NA cultures believed, for example, that just the fact that we BREATHE ( as in… we INHALE an we EXHALE ) means that everywhere we go while we are alive… we breathe IN a part of the ‘place’ where we are… and we also ‘leave a part of ourselves’ there in that ‘place’ ( because we also EXHALE ).
From a pure ‘physics’ perspective… that is actually TRUE.
So it is no wonder, then, that for a very long time into the future… many will believe that that Juniper tree is a place where some ‘essence’ of the men who saved it still exists there, in that place, when THEY were THERE and alive… and vibrant… and (yes) happy.
Reply to Marti Reed post on April 15, 2015 at 1:28 am
>> Marti said…
>>
>>
>> I’m pretty sure he doesn’t like that piece of ugly
>> concrete any better than we do.
Actually… if he respects that tree ( and the surrounding natural environment ) as much as he seems to… he probably thinks it is even WAAAY more ‘inappropriate’ than we do.
I sure as hell hope those Forestry people didn’t disturb the root system when they were digging and pouring that CONCRETE base.
It really is WAAAY too CLOSE to the tree.
If they wanted there to just be a ‘plaque’ out there… they had a lot of other options. They just didn’t think about it enough.
Exactly.
Just another case of not thinking things through enough.
Hmmmmmmmmmmm…….
Where have we seen THAT before???????
The other ‘takeaway’ from these ‘stories’ I found of people doing what they call ‘pilgrimages’ to the tree was that ‘overlapping’ story of Brendan McDonough being ‘accidentally’ found out there at the tree.
The stories seem to suggest he was there all by himself.
That just increases my concerns at to whether anyone is REALLY ‘watching’ him closely and is REALLY concerned about HIS welfare… and not their OWN agendas.
It’s pretty disturbing to think that Brendan has actually been WORKING for what appears to be one of the only organized groups meant to HELP firefighters who might be suffering PTSD… and that he has been closely tied with this organization for OVER A YEAR…
…yet he is still looking into applying for PTSD related medical pension.
What does that tell us about the ability of this organization he, himself, WORKS for to actually get people ( their own employee included ) the RIGHT help they need.
I know this organization Brendan works for has had its problems lately having to answer for their behavior and the way they have been spending all the money they have received since June 30, 2013…
…but if this is the primary GO TO organization for WFFs in need of help recovering from a tragic experience… I think a hard look needs to be taken at their actual ability to actually DO anything for these people as well.
In other words… maybe it’s time the Forestry Service itself had BETTER options here instead of just relying on an organization started by someone who use to run lunch wagons at WFF campsites.
You said:
“maybe it’s time the Forestry Service itself had BETTER options here instead of just relying on an organization started by someone who use to run lunch wagons at WFF campsites.”
I just really don’t believe the USFS actually gives a damn.
I haven’t seen any proof of that at all in any of this. Not at all.
Gary Olson-
the person who comments on article…
Gaelyn Olmsted, the Geogypsy
Here is her blog and her story is on there on Yarnell Hill Fire.
http://geogypsytraveler.com/category/places-ive-been/united-states/arizona/yarnell/
She stayed on widowed/retired Roberta Era’s property that burned down (Lakewood Dr)
I will never stop encouraging people who were AT the YHF or resided there in that community to share your accounts no matter how tiny it is…
I may not pop on here much and I may be out caving and doing other things but indeed every moment I even try to think I am away from the YHF and its aftermath God tells me WHO has the plan as once stated somewhere in regards to the YHF that God has the plan.
Now, I am in the library trying to get Sonny’s laptop to work and I noticed him typing away and a I passed by I did not want to disturb him but saw my name mentioned…ugh. I truly have stayed away to avoid my name used here directly or by another so no more further tangles can be made (recently only for 2015 commented/thanked Mr. Winston for his purity and sharing on here; we need much more like him on here)…it seems he is typing about the back burns. We are hiking pals. We saw that fire from different perceptions. I am going to directly state if you GO BACK to October 2013 archives where my journey first began on here…re-read the many rambles than you will see as time unfolded from October 2013 through December 2014 that I indeed wrote everything as it happened and my view on that topic is already journaled on here . Someone thinks I have been on Investigative Media since the start and not true. We were sent a link to the article after we did a hike with John Dougherty in the Fall 2013 and I left the site at the start of this year. We made inquiries and as well answered people’s questions October 2013 article and just popped on here and there after that. This site is not viewed by some as a good thing yet I have never denied hikes and always been upfront and available to the world in regards to the YHF and who the hikers are and why we were on the Weavers…I am sorry this site is not viewed as I view it- A PLACE OF FREEDOM OF SPEECH- (to an extent)…I know FROM THIS SITE, I learned a valuable lesson. I also think of this site as Marti Reed calls—campfire discussions—a place to go when you want to know what is new on the YHF. It has had its ups and downs…and before the fire you would only find me on hike Arizona or zazzle and I am not an internet gal so I learned this discussion on fire and all its details mainly from here and the people God led to us. We learned what division was even from people we hiked to people even on here. My hardest lesson was learning agendas and angles and also people telling hikers stuff but not investigators because they are afraid to lose their jobs, etc…Sad.
In direct to what Sonny is writing about. Yes, last Summer I did see photos and video that made it appear to be a back burn and YES I heard locals accounts yet their accounts have never been further investigated. Yes, I hiked with many but a few who “knew” the GMHS dearly and now for the woozy that has Sonny thinking of this right now most likely… We have not been on this site in recent months yet behind the scenes it is obvious God has the plan and in due time we will share all the people God LED TO US since 2015 to now to OSHA/John Dougherty and some on here/Dr. Ted Putnam. We have discussed this as eyewitness hikers on the YHF and because John Dougherty has kept this thread alive and strong he will be first than the others I just mentioned. If John decides he wants to do an article on the news we will not tell anyone else and let him have his story.
I hope everyone is doing well—
Enjoy your Spring!
I have to go see what Sonny wrote…I have to state this that a lot of the historical moments on this site I kept coming back just for that to see what he wrote because I do correct areas needed as WHO WANTS TO KNOW THE TRUTH knows that about me from back to the beginnings that was all I was doing…smiles.
**
** MORE ANALYSIS REGARDING THE PRESCOTT ICMA REPORT
On Saturday ( April 11 ), Prescott eNews ran Lynne LaMaster’s latest ‘analysis’ of the differences between Joe Stutler’s original “Wildland’ report for the Prescott ICMA study and what the Prescott City Council saw in the end.
She makes it perfectly clear what was different between the two… but there is no new information about WHO actually made all these obvious changes between Stutler’s original draft and what then appeared in the final ICMA report.
Prescott eNews
Article Title: Changes to the ICMA Report: The Differences are Clear Featured
Published: 11.Apr.2015 Lynne LaMaster
http://www.prescottenews.com/index.php/news/current-news/item/25268-changes-to-the-icma-report-the-differenc
es-are-clear
While it is true that BOTH the original and the final drafts were obviously presenting a ‘Clear and present DANGER’ of a CATASTROPHIC Widlfire incident in and around Prescott… even the FsPro and FARSITE computer modeling information presented in Stutler’s original draft were ‘edited’ in subtle ways in the final version of the report.
One of the obvious changes that Lynne LaMaster did NOT document in her article was the following entire paragraph from Stutler’s original draft that was TOTALLY EXCLUDED from the final draft.
It’s the part where Stutler was listing what ‘additional consequences’ could be expected in the even of a CATASTROPHIC Wildfire event in and/or around Prescott.
From Joe Stutler’s original draft…
—————————————————————————
2. The political risk for both elected officials and local government
officials/leaders would be significant given the wildland fire risk is both
KNOWN and WELL DOCUMENTED, and sufficient mitigation to reduce
the risk is NOT taken and maintained.
—————————————————————————
It is also true, however, ( and Lynne LaMaster fails to mention this ) that once even Joe Stutler became aware of how much his original report had been ‘edited’… he filed a formal objection with the people that paid him for his work ( the ICMA itself ).
That led to an actual CONFERENCE CALL that included Stutler, ICMA reps, the Prescott Deputy City Manager, and (current) Prescott Fire Chief Dennis Light.
During that conference call… both Stutler’s original draft and the final report were compared and discussed… and Joe Stutler himself says he was then ‘satisfied’ that the actual decision makers in Prescott were now FULLY AWARE of everything he had reported and was originally recommending.
That is why Joe Stutler eventually ‘signed off’ on the ICMA report.
He says he was convinced that the people who were actually going to make the actual BUSNESS decisions for Prescott ( The City Managers and the Fire Chief ) had seen “everything there was to see” and could never claim they had not been ‘fully briefed’ and ‘fully informed’ about the real dangers of a CATASTROPHIC Widlfire event happening there in Prescott.
They were now free to ‘make their own business decisions’… and ‘own’ them.
There has still been no comment from the Prescott City Council about all this, even after Jon Paladini submitted his ‘report’ back to them regarding these ‘changes’ that were obviously made ( by WHO? ICMA people? Prescott people? ) to the 3rd party contractor’s original reports and what was in the ‘final’ report.
There MIGHT be more to come on this… but maybe not.
The CHANGES were obvious… but the ‘business decisions’ have also already been made.
Darrell Willis obviously does not LIKE the ‘business decision’ that were made ( he lost his double-dipping job as Prescott Wildland Division Chief because of them )… but it is still unknown what ( if anything ) Darrell Willis plans on doing about it all.
CORRECTION for above… I was wrong.
Lynne LaMaster’s article DOES catch the part where Stutler’s original warning about ‘political consequences’ ended up being TOTALLY EXCLUDED from the final report.
It is actually in her ‘Other Differences’ sections and she reported it this way…
———————————————————————
Stutler:
“The political risk for both elected officials and local government officials/leaders would be significant given the wild land fire risk is both known and well documented, and sufficient mitigation to reduce the risk is not taken and maintained.”
Final:
Omitted.
———————————————————————-
So I’m basically quite late in replying to this, but I owe it to you.
Thank you!!
I really appreciate her description of all of this. As a matter of fact, I was somewhat waiting with baited breath for it. I think she did a good job of it.
When this erupted earlier, I went back and looked at both of the Stutler reports, and sensed several differences, but it was too late and I was too braindead to delve into them, much less post them here. I’m glad she had the time to put them up side-by-side and describe them.
I really believe two things.
1) Stutler saw himself as a person hired to do the task of “analyzing” the risk that Prescott was facing and the resources they had in facing that, and then giving “his” recommendations regarding that. But that’s as far as he believed his task went. Which, all things considered,from his viewpoint, is understandable.
2) The people who decided to hire this company already, at the time they hired it, had an Opinion of what they wanted. They wanted something “less expensive” and “less risky” in terms of the benefits they decided they didn’t want to be held responsible for. Because they already sensed they “couldn’t afford it.”
Since Stutler saw his role the way he saw it, he was comfortable “handing off” the “business” decisions to the people in charge of the “business” decisions.
I still think the people in charge of the “business” decisions may be making a HUMONGOUS mistake. All things considered.
There is a “CoreLogic” Wildfire Risk Report, released early this year, which examines the residential properties potentially exposed to wildfire risk in 13 western states. It is quite interesting.
From what I have seen in it, Prescott is way more at risk from wildfire than most of any of the other cities they looked at, including Albuquerque, which to my eyes, seems to be taking these risks way more seriously than Prescott is, at this time.
Here is the link to the CoreLogic Wildfire Hazard Risk Report:
http://www.corelogic.com/research/wildfire-risk-report/2015-wildfire-hazard-risk-report.pdf
**
** ADOSH LAWYERS WANT TO SEE THE SAIT ‘MANAGEMENT REPORT’
** THAT THEY WERE REQUIRED TO PRODUCE.
Still combing through the latest ALJ Hearing file document(s) that were posted just a week ago ( April 6 ).
In the latest document covering exchanges ( so far ) in April… there are more responses from Arizona Forestry to ADOSH’s requests for things that are SUPPOSED to be in Arizona Forestry’s possession.
This is all still part of the ‘Discovery’ process taking place and that the ‘Exchange of documents/evidence’ that has been taking place since last year.
In this latest ALJ document we now learn that ADOSH wants Arizona Forestry to produce the ‘Management Report’ that was SUPPOSED to be one of the ‘paid for’ deliverables coming out of Jim Karel’s and Mike Dudley’s ‘Special Accident Investigation’.
We also now see the Arizona Forestry lawyers ‘playing STUPID’ on this and pretending they have no idea what ADOSH is even referring to.
The strategy there ( on the part of Arizona Forestry ) is that if they simply ‘PLAY STUPID’ on this… then they don’t have to explain to either ADOSH or Judge Mosesso why Jim Karels and Mike Dudley never even bothered to even DO this ‘Management Report’ that the were contracted to produce.
The latest ALJ Hearing File document ( uploaded on April 6 ) is…
“2015_04 Updated 04.06.15.pdf”
From that document…
—————————————————————————————-
ADOSH: REQUEST FOR PRODCUTION NO. 16:
Produce the “Management Evaluation Report” relating to June 2013 Yarnell Hill Fire
ASFD: RESPONSE TO REQUEST FOR PRODCUTION NO. 16:
Respondent ( Arizona Forestry ) is unfamiliar with a document entitled “Management Evaluation Report” ( the “Report” ) and therefore cannot produce the Report. If ADOSH is more specific as to tge document to which the Request refers, ASFD is willing to undertake additional steps to respond to the Request. As it stands, ASFD does not possess responsive documents to this this Request.
—————————————————————————————–
NOTE: The ‘tge’ in the paragraph above is the same spelling error seen in the original document filed by the Arizona Forestry lawyers. It was obviously supposed to be the word ‘the’.
The ‘Management Evaluation Report’ that ADOSH is referring to is the one that Jim Karels and Mike Dudley were specifically REQUIRED to produce along with the ‘Factual Report’ as one of the paid-for ‘deliverables’ coming out of their SAIT investigation.
They were specifically ORDERED to produce that ‘Management Evaluation Report’ in the actual ‘Delegation of Authority’ letter that created the SAIT itself.
The official “Delegation of Authority” letter, signed by Arizona State Forester Scott Hunt on July 3, 2013, is the document that allowed the “Special Accident Investigation Team” to start investigating the Yarnell Hill Incident on behalf of Arizona State Forestry.
It is also the document that specifically told the SAIT what their JOB was, and the ‘deliverables’ ( documents ) they were REQUIRED to produce.
Here is the full text of that “Delegation of Authority” document that was reproduced in the actual SAIR report itself as ‘Appendix G’…
—————————————————————————————–
To: Janice K. Brewer – Governor of Arizona
From: Scott Hunt – Arizona State Forester
Arizona State Forestry Division
Office of the State Forester
1110 W. Washington St., Suite 100
Phonenix, AZ 85007
(602) 771-1400
Serious Accident Investigation Team Delegation of Authority
On the afternoon of June 30, 2013, nineteen members of the Granite Mountain Type 1 Hotshot Crew from Prescott, Arizona were killed while fighting the Yarnell Hill Fire.
As the State Forester of Arizona, I authorize Jim Karel’s Serious Accident Investigation Team to conduct the accident review of the Yarnell Hill Fire.
This delegation is to perform the serious accident review of the Yarnell Hill Fire with the final objective of providing a FACTUAL and MANAGEMENT report for accident prevention.
I also authorize Mike Dudley as the Deputy Team Leader.
Your duties INCLUDE but are not limited to:
1. Organizing, conducting, and controlling the accident investigation.
2. Providing for in briefings and out briefings with affected agency officials.
3. Coordinating information exchange between team members, local law enforcement, coroner’s office, and others.
4. Requesting techincal, logistical, or other support as required to conduct the investigation.
5. Assist the State Forester’s information staff with addressing the media on your makeup, purpose, methodology, and estimated timelines, including attending press conferences if necessary.
6. The Forestry Division shall be the final repository for all team paperwork and reports.
7. Provide the following formal briefing reports:
A) Expanded Report ( 72 Hours )
B) Factual AND Management Report.
SIGNED by…
Scott Hunter – 7-3-13
Jim Karels, Team Leader, SAIT – 7-3-13
Mike Dudley, Deuputy Team Leader, SAIT – 7-3-13
—————————————————————————————–
The two relevant parts of this ‘Delegation of Authority’ document are…
—————————————————————————————–
This delegation is to perform the serious accident review of the Yarnell Hill Fire with the final objective of providing a FACTUAL and MANAGEMENT report for accident prevention.
Your duties INCLUDE but are not limited to:
7. Provide the following formal briefing reports:
A) Expanded Report ( 72 Hours )
B) Factual and Management Report.
—————————————————————————————–
So Arizona Forestry knows damn well what ‘Management Report’ ADOSH is referring to.
But as long as the Arizona Forestry lawyers ‘STAY STUPID’ about it and pretend they don’t even know what ADOSH is referring to, then they don’t even have to explain why this ‘Management Report’ that the SAIT was REQUIRED to produce was never actually done.
This MANAGEMENT report was SUPPOSED to NOT be one of these ‘Facilitated Learning Analysis’ (FLA) style reports and was SUPPOSED to be just a detailed report targeted for Fire Service Management about what ACTUALLY happened that day.
Jim Karels, Mike Dudley ( and the SAIT ) CHOSE to NOT produce this report, even though they were being PAID to do so, and Arizona Forestry was OK with that.
If ADOSH comes back and clarifies this request ( easily done )… it’s going to be hard for the Arizona Forestry lawyers to keep ‘PLAYING STUPID’ on this and we might ( finally ) see an explanation as to WHY this critical ‘Management Report’ was never even produced.
**
** AZCENTRAL EDITORIAL SAYS BRENDAN MUST BE DEPOSED
Four days after AZCENTRAL first broke the story about what City Attorney Jon Palladini was told Brendan McDonough knows… AZCENTRAL actually published their own editiorial about this.
It says flat-out that there is NO QUESTION now that Brendan MUST be deposed, under-oath.
AZCENTRAL
Article Title: Force out the truth of the Yarnell Hill inferno
Published 6:25 p.m. MST April 7, 2015 by the AZCENTRAL Editorial Board
http://www.azcentral.com/story/opinion/editorial/2015/04/07/force-out-truth-yarnell-hill-inferno/25439121/
From the article…
———————————————————————————–
Brendan McDonough, the lone survivor of the Granite Mountain Hotshots,
MUST be compelled to testify under oath to what he heard over the radio
on the day his 19 friends died.
We need to know…
What happened?
What did McDonough hear?
Why did they leave the black?
———————————————————————————–
Exactly-Donut continues to have a hole in it. There are other questions to be asked of Donut if and when our illustrious investigators become willing to put him under oath. One that bothers me is the fact that there were plenty of backfires being lit–those videos of that rock wall and those men in the shrine area lighting fires is enough to make me believe that was the reason that Joy and I barely escaped ourselves with a margin of only about 11 minutes. That also would have blocked the escape route of the 19 once the wind whipped around. From where I was seeing the fire when we left the two track where the men went down, Joy and I would have had plenty of time to escape the route I took, yet when we got to Foothills Drive where my car was parked, people were fleeing like flies with only about ten minutes since the fire was already entering Yarnell and a few hundred yards from us. The streets there were deterring it some, but had people been in the brush they would have perished along with the 19. Donut could have witnessed what backfires were being lighted at the time and heard as well over communications about others. Dr. Ted Putman stated hat he believed if backfires would have been made, it would more likely be to protect the ranch.. We talked to locals who stated they did see backfires being lighted between the Shrine and Sesame and also on the north end of the fire near Peeples Valley. That definetly is something that needs to be addressed–seems like backfires can be a deadly situation under some conditions.
I did mean to add that some photos and video show two separated smoke columns–That can be explained by backfires being lighted distant from the main fire–perhaps time stamps correlated with photos of those fellows lighting the fires with the smoke columns would confirm this. There is much to learn from this mismanaged fire–much that will undoubtedly come out if investigators do their job properly–And if they do–future ways they do things will undoubtedly prevent needless loss of life that we saw here.
I did mean to add that photos and video show separate smoke columns. One column appears separate to the main fire. Time stamps, could verify whether those back fires were set at a time that would have have spelled disaster for the 19. This whole mess of how this fire was handled needs to be cleaned to the bone so that future fire fighting practices improve–needless loss of life like this is a shame to the profession.
sonny… I just thought I would let you know that as I have been working with all 35 video clips that were taken between 4:00 PM and 4:42 PM that Sunday by the ABC15 News Helicopter… I HAVE been paying particular attention to these locations on the ground where people HAVE reported seeing ‘backfires’ being lit that day.
Unfortunately… I can tell you with a fair degree of certainty now that none of the aerial footage shot by this ABC15 New Helicopter sheds any more real light on that.
The ABC15 News Helicopter never ‘focused’ on the outskirts of either Yarnell or Glen Ilah, and any ‘background’ views of those areas sort of remains hidden and shrouded by the smoke of the main column(s).
I am still not finished analyzing all these ABC15 Helicopter video clips… but it is doubtful any of them are going to show any real evidence of any ‘backburns’ being lit out there ahead of the main firelines that day.
Joy tells me to let you know that we are going by photos and video and testimony that we have seen and heard, yet the people have not gone public with.the evidence. Joy can identify the people with these photos to investigators, something I am sure they would share if approached. Likely some of them have offered the evidence. Perhaps they got the response we got when we offered over 1500 photos that Joy took that day. We were told the photos were not important. Seems they had it all figured out without having to look into much detail. Nineteen men lost and you would have thought they would jump on any related detail. They still seem reluctant and instead of thanking us, we have been harassed to some extent for our efforts to get at what you work so hard at.
I would like to see some billionaire who cares about firefighters lives hire the likes of you, JD, Dr. Ted Putman, Bob Powers, Marti, and others concerned with the cause of the death of those young firefighters. He would have a top notch team of investigators who could and would get to the bottom of this tragedy. I am sure the comrades at arms would attempt to deter such investigation as they have attempted to discredit this web site and its people attempting to unravel those mysterious deaths.
We are out of the area for the most part and back to our desert abode. The donkey we have is better at investigating than most of what we saw in the Sair efforts, if indeed it were ever an investigation. Even after the report there was too much speaking with forked tongue by those involved in the investigations. I did not see it as much in the OSHA report but one has the feeling those fellows were pressured from higher sources to gloss over this thing– It must be like laying in bed with a rattlesnake that is looking you in the eye. You might be afraid to move– only all they have to worry about is their jobs–yet in this world that might mean your life as well. As a tramp miner I never had that worry–I could always have another job in a day or two, sometimes the same day. We always said shifters (bosses) are a dime a dozen, but miners are hard to find. I once asked a shifter why he would take a shitty joy at seven bucks an hour when he could be a miner making twenty six or more. Too bad in a way firefighters are too much like the army–in mining it is the reverse and the miner is more respected than the boss. Well of course that is relevant–some old worn out miners were bosses and well respected–they just couldn’t cut the mustard anymore. The one I liked best was a guy named Bylon. He brought a lunch with a thermos full of whiskey and we didn’t see him but twice a day–once in the morning and when we woke him up to leave at the end of a shift. We by the way were the best producers since he stayed out of the way. Well trained firefighters are definitely tough–but in the case of going down in that death bowl there has to be something that needs to be changed in the way the wildfire fighters operate–well let me say at least in the Yarnell system we saw that day.
Follow the money says the Gunsmith in Yarnell. He says he has watched the last five or six wildfires and he thinks they all could have been quenched early. Well if they are going to let them go like the Yarnell was, then we definitely need to upgrade the bosses efforts in keeping people alive and protecting property. Someone made a ton of money dropping jumbo jet loads of retardant and running large crews of fire fighters. What they did not expect was to see 19 young dead men as a result. If it was greed, the cost was infinite. But I think there are many factors here–safety issues when that thing had gone ballistic to releasing atomic bomb energy– disregard for weather conditions-disregard for overworked men– and maybe even someone trying to get glory for saving houses. Yet some have been arrogant enough to take glory and stupid enough to say that is what they do — drop down in a deadly situation to save houses.
People buy that crap because they do not have the facts–Thank you Joy, Thank you WTKT, Thank you especially JD for this site and the Bob Powers and Marti’s and those willing to give this their best in honor of those young men and their families and other concerned people who like myself do not have the abilities of what I have seen on this web site. We do want the truth–those lives are worth it.
Yes, Sonny… even apart from the information Brendan McDonough is still ( and has always been ) withholding… there are still a number of ‘mysteries’ to be solved about what was going on that weekend… especially on the fateful Sunday.
Example: We still have no idea what the ‘story’ is with the bulldozer and its operator. Did he really have to ‘ride out’ the firestorm himself inside the cab of either the dozer or the loboy trailer somewhere out there at the bottom of the Sesame clearing?
Was that why someone ( WHO? WHEN? ) told DPS Helicopter Ranger 58 that the dozer operator was ‘unaccounted for’ and another person they were supposed to be ‘searching’ for?
What does this dozer operator know about Gary Cordes’ ‘last-ditch-effort’ plans to try and create another ‘firebreak’ there to protect Glen Ilah… and did those ‘plans’ actually have ANYTHING to do with why Granite Mountain was now ( supposedly ) being ‘ordered’ to get the Boulder Springs Ranch?
And all of that ( the mysterious bulldozer and its equally mysterious operator ) is just ONE of the OTHER ongoing ‘mysteries’ that still needs to be solved.
What is worrisome about if/when Brendan will EVER actually reveal what he has ALWAYS known is the following quote directly from his criminal defense attorney ( David Shapiro ) as reported in the following article…
InvestigativeMEDIA
Article Title: McDonough will testify if legally required
Published April 10, 2015 By John Dougherty
http://www.investigativemedia.com/mcdonough-will-testify-if-legally-required/
From the article…
——————————————————————–
Brendan McDonough will testify if legally required about radio conversations between Granite Mountain Hotshots’ senior leaders in the moments immediately leading up to their deaths and 17 other members of the crew, his attorney says.
“Under certain circumstances, Brendan will tell his story to a court of law,” Prescott attorney Dave Shapiro says in an interview with InvestigativeMedia.com.
——————————————————————–
So, right there, we hear McDonough’s attorney pretty much outlining the ONLY way that Brednan will EVER tell what he knows.
His attorney says it will ONLY be to a “court of law”… and even then… it will ONLY happen (quote) “under certain circumstances”.
As for “to a court of law”… that means that if the ‘wrongful death’ lawsuits gets ‘settled’ out-of-court… then there will BE no active/sitting ‘court’ that can compel McDonough to testify. That case will be ‘closed’ and will NOT be ‘going to court’ if it is settled out-of-court.
The “Arizona Forestry vs. ADOSH” case is not actually a ‘civil court case’. It is simply a set of ‘procedures’ being followed whereby someone accused of workplace violations can CONTEST those citations and ( ultimately ) only results in a HEARING before an ‘Administrative Law Judge’.
This ‘path to a HEARING’ does have some of the same ‘powers’ as the court would in an actual ‘civil court’ case. ALJ Judge Michael A. Mosesso does ‘wear a black robe’ ( as they say ) and he DOES have the power to issue a ‘subpoena’… but he has already stated in previous attempts by Arizona Forestry to get him to subpoena McDonough that he is NOT in the habit of issuing subpoenas for witnesses just to force them to attend depositions.
If the ‘wrongful death’ court suits evaporate ( because of a settlement )… then the only chance left fulfill that part of Mr. David Shapiro’s statement that Brendan will ONLY reveal what he knows to a ‘court of law’… then the only chance that will remain for that to happen is if the “Arizona Forestry vs. ADOSH” case remains active and Judge Mosesso issues a ‘court order’ for Brendan to testify.
But even if that ‘court order’ happens… Mr. Shapiro is also saying there are other ‘circumstances’ that will govern whether or not Brendan agrees to testify.
Mr. Shapiro didn’t SAY what those ‘certain circumstances’ are.
Could one of those ‘other circumstances’ be that McDonough’s attorney will only allow him to testify if the court also agrees to SEAL that testimony?
In other words… ONLY the Judge and the Lawyers in the case get to ever actually see/hear what Brendan knows… and that information will remained as SEALED EVIDENCE in that court proceeding?
More come about all this, I’m sure.
And as Marti Reed has said any number of times…
“This fire isn’t even remotely done burning yet”.
Seems that Donut does have somewhat of a guilty conscience for withholding information.. He has taken in so much adoration and now it is fading–that must hurt. If he really wanted to be a good man he would feel the harm he is doing to the many lives that are connected to the deaths of those l9 men. They deserve the truth and no more bull shit about this tragedy. The only way Donut will save face and live clean is to come forward with the truth. He does not need a lawyer, Willis or anyone else to speak for him. The people know he did not cause their deaths but they do know his is withholding what he knows and for that he will always be considered a coward and liar. Yet if he comes forward as he should he will regain the respect he would deserve. It is sad Donut when you withhold things that demand to be revealed so people can have closure for the loss of their loved ones. If the likes of you had been involved in the situation where my son died back in 1999, you would definitely be on my shit list until you came clean and revealed the facts I needed to know. All the glory you have taken would mean nothing to me–you would have revealed yourself to be a scoundrel without conscience. Go right be true not a mouse afraid of daylight.
Reply to Sonny post on April 14, 2015 at 3:44 pm
>> Sonny said…
>>
>> The only way Donut will save face and live clean is to come
>> forward with the truth. He does not need a lawyer, Willis
>> or anyone else to speak for him.
No, he doesn’t. Last time I checked… First Amendment rights to “Freedom of Speech” were/are still in full affect.
However… Brendan’s PROBLEM now is that he has dug a deep enough hole for himself at this point that he pretty much HAS to get a little ‘dirty’ just to crawl his way back out of it.
What I mean is… no matter WHAT he does now… there are certain ‘camps’ of opinion that aren’t going to fully believe him no matter HOW he chooses to ‘do the right thing’ and do what he should have done in the first place… tell everything he knows relative to the incident.
He COULD just walk into any TV station, go on camera, and just ‘tell his story’… but many will still simply still be thinking “once a LIAR, always LIAR” and will wonder if he isn’t simply still following his own personal agenda, like he did with the original investigations, and either still isn’t telling everything he knows or is still trying to shape the narrative himself in some way.
He COULD also agree to an ‘under-oath’ deposition with no “conditions” or “certain circumstances” ( as his lawyer seems to be saying are now in place )… but even if he puts his hand on large stacks of books representing the tenets of every religion on the planet… there will STILL be some people who are going to doubt he is telling “the truth, the WHOLE truth, and nothing BUT the truth”.
So either way… Brendan is going to get a little ‘dirty’ here as he crawls out of this hole he has dug for himself.
Personally… I think it would be a MISTAKE for him to just walk into a TV station at this point.
This nonsense has gone on for so long now… I think he DOES need a “Lawyer” beside him and it DOES need to be officially SWORN testimony ( under penalty of perjury ).
I think that is the ONLY way for him to stay the ‘cleanest’ as he crawls out of this hole and have the best chance of having the greatest number of people ‘accepting’ his testimony as the TRUTH… and putting this all behind him once and for all.
My 2 cents, anyway.
Well said on this WTKT–I am too much of an optimist thinking he might come forward on his own– With coaches we definitely will get a tainted version, however, you are right that he will have a hard time saving face now and maybe a lawyer is his best hope to do that.
For Brendan’s own GOOD now… it is all about having whatever he has to say now being BELIEVED as the TRUTH.
His BEST chance for that is an ‘under-oath’ deposition/session that actually has potential penalties for ‘perjury’ associated with it.
That will give HIM the best chance at being BELIEVED… which is what he ultimately NEEDS for his own peace of mind, here.
And that is really the main goal here.
It’s not going to do this young man any real good to ‘spill his guts’ but still have people looking at him sideways for the rest of his life.
At least an ‘under-oath’ session will give him the best chance of reducing those ‘sideways looks’.
SOME will probably still not ‘believe’ him… or even openly still CHALLENGE what he says… but if he SWEARS to tell the truth like we ALL have to do from time to time… then MOST people WILL believe that whatever he says about what happened that day really is what happened that day.
He has no BEST option at this point… but I believe the ‘deposition’ route is better than just the ‘TV station’ option.
This really is a classic case of “the only real cure is prevention”.
His BEST option was to have never ‘dug this hole’ for himself in the first place.
**
** MORE NEWS ABOUT THE NEW FIRE SHELTER DEVELOPMENT
There are now ( supposedly ) only 5 ( FIVE ) days left before Arizona Forestry runs out of time to reach any kind of ‘settlement’ in the Yarnell Hill Fire ‘wrongful death’ lawsuits.
The Judge in the case had only agreed to keep the court calendar in this case ‘frozen’ for another 30 days back on March 17, 2015… so that only give Arizona Forestry five more days ( until April 17 ) to reach a ‘settlement’ with the plaintiffs before the whole thing is back on track for the courtroom again.
Sure enough… we mysteriously continue to see even MORE news articles suddenly ‘popping’ up about this ( supposed ) NEW Fire Shelter being worked on by the U.S. Forestry Service.
We NOW learn that David Turbyfill ( father of deceased GM Hotshot Travis Turbyfill ) HAS, in fact, been being allowed to participate in this design process.
David Turbyfill was allowed to submit his research data and list of materials that HE has been testing to the people in charge of this ‘new’ fire shelter project.
The person in charge of it happens to be Tony Pertrilli, who was a member of the original SAIT team that investigated the Yarnell Hill tragedy on behalf of Arizona Forestry.
Here is a NEW article about this ‘New Fire Shelter’ design that appeared only
yesterday in the Prescott Daily Courier…
The Prescott Daily Courier
Article Title: Development of next-gen fire shelter moves to next stage
Published 4/11/2015 6:01:00 AM by Joanna Dodder Nellans
http://dcourier.com/main.asp?SectionID=1&SubSectionID=1&ArticleID=144044&TM=70375.8
From the article…
———————————————————————————————-
U.S. Forest Service researchers have initially tested approximately 50 materials for the federal government’s next-generation emergency shelter for wildland firefighters.
Federal officials decided to move up their planned 2015 review of fire shelters to 2014, because of the deaths of 19 of Prescott’s Granite Mountain Hotshots on the Yarnell Hill wildfire on June 30, 2013.
New or improved shelters could be in firefighters’ hands as early as 2017, said Tony Petrilli, equipment specialist at the Forest Service’s Missoula Technology and Development Center.
Anyone was welcome to submit materials or designs they thought would work in a fire shelter. The Forest Service has been screening them for strength, durability, flammability, thermal performance and toxicity.
Among those who submitted materials is David Turbyfill of Prescott, father of fallen Granite Mountain Hotshot Travis Turbyfill.
Turbyfill manufactures and welds metal products, so he had no trouble creating a huge burner to blast flames onto the material. He posted the test on You Tube at youtu.be/Ps-OcG70hps.
“To me it was, ‘Prove the idea that there was a material available that would have made the event of June 30, 2013 a survivable event,'” Turbyfill said.
Turbyfill said he found the carbon infused fabric on the Internet. It was designed to shield kilns and industrial furnaces from flames.
———————————————————————————————-
I still can’t help but wonder about the actual TIMING for all these articles suddenly ‘popping’ in the MSM about this ‘new’ fire shelter.
That makes the THIRD major ‘announcement’ ( with increasingly more detail each time ) about these shelters just in the last 3 weeks… all of them right smack in the middle of this ‘mediation’ phase between Arizona Forestry and the ‘plaintiffs’ in the Yarnell Fire ‘wrongful death’ lawsuits.
One of the DEMANDS of the plaintiffs has always been that the WFF industry PROVE it has “Learned Something” ( anything? ) from Yarnell and will actively make CHANGES to industry standards and protocols to try and make sure nothing like Yarnell ever happens again.
So could all of these ‘press releases’ about the ‘new fire shelter’ actually just be tied to those demands… and the U.S. Forestry service is trying to PROVE ( during the actual mediation ) that they are actively at least working to improve SOMETHING following Yarnell?
NOTE: David Turbyfill and his wife ( the parents of Travis Turbyfill ) are NOT officially ‘plaintiffs’ in the wrongful death suits… but Travis’ wife Stephanie Turbyfill is.
Since almost the day after the tragedy… David Turbyfill ( himself an engineer ) has said he would make it one of his ‘missions in life’ to see to it that a NEW Fire Shelter design emerge as a result of the Yarnell Hill tragedy.
Kudos to John D. for his new commentary which came out this morning. It is well stated and includes many of the things we’ve all been thinking,
On another note, most of the recent information that relates to the radio traffic that Brendan allegedly heard of Marsh and Steed discussing their options, states that the discussion was about whether or not to leave the black.
Let’s not forget though, that at that point in time, Steed had no idea of the stunning visual that was going to be presented as he peered down from the top of the bowl while standing at the descent point.
While some narratives in the court filings allege that Brendan also heard a conversation that occurred when the crew reached the descent point, in any case, it is almost assured that another significant discussion DID ensue as Steed and crew came into view of the brush choked bowl, right before the descent.
Most likely, two distinctly separate conversations, with two distinctly separate disagreements. There might be a lesson somewhere in this.
Agree.
Even SAIT Co-Lead Mike Dudley’s statement(s) to that roomful of Utah firefighters on June 20, 2014 specifically said that the MULTIPLE ( as in, from more than one person ) ‘allegations’ they ( the SAIT ) received about an ‘argument’ all said it was at the “saddle” and it was about “which way to go”.
Once again… Mike Dudley’s exact quote on June 20, 2014…
————————————————————————–
There were some allegations that there was an argument between
the Captain and the Superintendent about which way to go… from
that saddle. Some people made that allegation.
————————————————————————–
There really is little doubt that even after whatever continued “comfort level” based conversations took place to convince Steed to bring the men south and out of the black… there must have been a HUGE WTF moment for Steed himself when he reached that saddle and saw the pink ribbon Marsh left pointing down into the canyon.
Even the SAIT sort of ‘got that part right’.
The SAIR report always divided the tragic decision making that afternoon into THREE critical ‘decision points’.
1) The decision to leave the black in the first place
2) The decision to try the ‘shortcut’ through the fuel-filled blind box canyon.
3) The decision to deploy versus trying ANY other option.
For all we know… there might even been a FINAL ( intense ) argument amongst the men themselves regarding decision point (3).
If any of you have time go over to Wild Fire Today and check out the Crew Boss training film
Probably late 40″ but was no different in the 50″s and early 60″s.
No Fire shirts, No Fire Pants No Fire Shelters and no Packs on your back.
Note the Shirt sleeves rolled down when on the fire line.
We wore kacky shirts, blue jeans Cotton or green Cotton paints.
So That might explain why I am classed as old school, Safety was priority.
When we got Fire shelters we carried them but we never wanted to use them and followed
the 10 &13/18. You didn’t look for deployment sites you planed safety zones we did not trust the Fire Shelter and treated it accordingly (POTATO BAKERS). We carried them because we were required to not because we thought we would ever use one.
When you fight fire with out one you learn a different way of protecting yourself.
As Canadians, we never thought of them as a safety option. Just a piece of heavy mandatory gear, that we did not have faith in, so would avoid getting into a scenario where that was the only option left.
Just looked at the crew Boss film again and it is actually early 1960’s
There are some 1960’s trucks in fire camp with the late 50’s green and gray paint jobs.
Reply to rocksteady post on April 11, 2015 at 10:54 am
>> rocksteady said…
>>
>> As Canadians, we never thought of them as a safety option.
>> Just a piece of heavy mandatory gear, that we did not have faith in.
Interesting point.
I wonder if a SURVEY has ever really been taken here in the USA asking the guys/gals who are ‘required’ to ‘carry’ these things whether THEY actually consider it ‘something they have any faith in’.
The moment I saw that initial press conference from the deployment site and the actual Prescott Fire Department Wildland Division Chief ( Darrell Willis ) stood there and could NOT answer a reporter’s question about what the actual ‘upper temperature limit’ was for the fire shelter(s)…
…I said to myself…
“Self… if an actual paid Wildland Division Chief doesn’t even have any frickin’ idea what the upper temperature limit is for these stupid things… then I wonder how many of the people who are supposed to USE them are just as clueless?”
It would be interesting to actually establish that ‘level of ‘cluelessness’.
If there are, in fact, hundreds ( thousands? ) of WFFs out there who don’t even have a clear understanding of what is even SURVIVABLE in these things…
…then ‘back up the bus, sparky’.
“Missoula… we have a PROBLEM”.
WE have had that problem for a long time—-
It is mandentory to go thru the training session on Shelters and yearly refreshers.
in the Federal Gov. Refreshers and every one is told the max heat and space from the fire needed. They also use old shelters or training shelters to deploy in so they understand the use and what to do.
Willis and his lack of knowledge is not an indication of all fire fighters.
While Fire Fighters know the capability of the shelter most practice the safe way to never use them.
The Look for Deployment sites instead of Safety Zones seems to be the new Idea of being able to push the limit and take risks by some who think the 10 and 18 are hillbilly and not modern enough.
My thoughts —- There are really very few deployments vs. numbers of fire fighters which means many are following the safety rules and not putting them selves in a position of ever having to deploy.
How many Fire Fighters do you think after Yarnell are thinking I do not ever want to be in a position to deploy what can I do to never use a fire shelter?
After seeing what happened to Granit Mountain that is a real concern.
Their last resort aint going to get it—-Since the Fire shelter was developed
it has only gone from 500 to 650 degree’s it can withstand. even if it goes to 1500 it is still a potato baker——It will take 4 to 5 years to put a better one on the market in the mean time learn to fight fire so you never have to use one.
I did it many others did it. Canada dose it. Become mental robots with the 10 and 18. Learn every thing you can about Wild Land Fire. Stay alert —-
Fight Fire Aggressively but ALWAYS provide for safety first—-
Amen brother!
I posted this commentary earlier this morning.
http://www.investigativemedia.com/yarnell-hill-fire-investigations-leave-a-shameful-legacy/
Thank you, John, for writing this and also posting it here.
I especially appreciate this:
“The state has abdicated its responsibility to conduct honest and thorough investigations that discover the truth about the events that led to the deaths of 19 young men and to share the information with the public and the families of the deceased.
Instead, Arizona has cruelly shifted that terrible responsibility to McDonough.
The state’s handling of the Yarnell Hill investigations has been shameful and certainly unworthy of the ultimate sacrifice made by the Granite Mountain Hotshots.”
It seems we may now know what happened, but the why I think remains elusive. Why did Marsh pull rank? Why did they have to get to the BSR? A lot of reasons have been advanced and all have been panned here for one reason or another. What plan did Marsh have in mind? Maybe McDonough knows something about that, maybe not. If Marsh had a plan, did he concoct it on his own? Are people in Arizona Forestry seeking to truncate this story even now, even with the new narrative that has come out?
Reply to mike post on April 11, 2015 at 7:18 am
All good questions, mike.
>> mike said…
>>
>> Maybe McDonough knows something about that, maybe not.
I think the only remaining chance to know the WHY is if it was actually mentioned during the earlier “discussing their options” conversations BEFORE the decision was made to ‘leave the safe black’..
They were on a ‘mission’… and unless Steed had consented to the ‘mission’ itself… they would have never left the black at all.
If Brendan and/or any of the Blue Ridge Hotshots didn’t hear THAT part of the “discussing their options” conversation… we’ll probably never really know WHAT the ‘mission’ that Steed had agreed to really was.
I believe that once they DID leave the black… the radio communications were probably then all just ‘tactical’ and the actual REASON they were doing it in the first place was probably no longer even being ‘discussed’.
All that being said…
Don’t forget that there are STILL indications and evidence that point to OTHER people who are still alive having ‘knowldege’ of WHY this move was being made.
Brendan isn’t the only one who still needs to ‘testify’ again and/or be DEPOSED.
Reply to John Dougherty post on April 11, 2015 at 1:41 am
>> John Dougherty said…
>>
>> I posted this commentary earlier this morning.
>>
>> http://www.investigativemedia.com/yarnell-hill-fire-investigations-leave-a-shameful-legacy/
John… thank you for this.
Yes… it’s time for another “Slowly I turned” moment and and time for EVERYONE to take a hard look at the shenanigans that have gone on with the investigations themselves.
As for the failure to even ask Brendan the right questions… I’m not sure we still have the ‘full story’ on that.
I think I’ve said this before but I believe there is still the distinct possibility that the investigators were being PREVENTED from even asking Brendan McDonough certain ‘questions’ and that that ‘stipulation’ was totally ‘off the record’ and arranged PRIOR to Brendan agreeing to ANY interviews.
At ALL THREE of Brendan’s (supposed) interviews… ( SAIT, 2 ADOSH ), there was (supposedly) an attorney sitting there right next to him.
The way the investigators would pull the car right up to the most crucial moments and then NOT ask Brendan the most obvious “Investigations 101” questions at those moments has always ( to me ) indicated that (perhaps) they were told beforehand that Brendan would REFUSE to answer any of those kinds of questions.
There’s a part of me that just cannot even BELIEVE ( and will probably NEVER believe ) that 3 sets of ‘investigators’ could have POSSIBLY been that ‘incompetent’.
Even when Brendan was finally given permission ( by who? ) to talk to the media following the release of the SAIR report… the same situation seemed to still exist.
The initial Prescott Daily Courier interview even stated flat-out that Brendan ( and/or his attorney ) had told them there would be (quote) “Things that Brendan will refuse to talk about”, but even they seemed to not be allowed to even say WHAT those ‘things’ were.
So to this day… I’m not fully convinced myself that there weren’t some “off the record” STIPULATIONS surrounding anyone’s attempt to interview Brendan McDonough… and that means Brendan’s OWN PRIVATE AGENDA has always been a component here in what the investigators were able to find out about June 30, 2013.
Whether that PRIVATE AGENDA was all Brendan’s idea… or whether he was being advised/coached about “what not to talk about” also remains part of the ‘mystery’.
It remains perfectly obvious that even with the questions the investigators DID think to ask Brendan… his responses reflected an obvious ‘coaching’ along the lines of….
“If they ask you about radio conversations… you ONLY have to talk about ones in which you were a direct, active participant. If they ask you about ANY other radio conversations… even ones you might have just overheard… just say things like ‘That wasn’t directed at me’ or ‘That wasn’t my decision’ or “That’s not something I feel comfortable talking about'”.
All THREE of those ‘example’ response above ARE, in fact, things that Brendan SAID back to investigators and interviewers whenever the conversation got close to things he might have just HEARD over the radio.
So there really did seem to be a PLAN, and an AGENDA and some obvious COACHING going on there on Brendan’s side of the table as he was ‘helped’ through these interviews.
WHO did that obvious COACHING?
Was it only his first attorney Emily Dolan?… or was it OTHER people/officials associated with the City of Prescott?
If Brendan is ever deposed… I think even THESE kinds of questions need to be asked.
WTKTT and Marti,
I read down below in the thread a question from Marti as to why a hotshot crew’s line gear can’t be taken off while constructing hand line and in addition to the detailed answer I gave below, there is another simpler answer. The total line gear from an entire hotshot crew would add up to several hundred pounds and make quite a pile.
And although it is probably hard for to you to visualize it, a hotshot crew can really make some time when constructing hand line in a progressive or bump up method. Since the average hand line is only about 18 inches wide and with every crewmember taking a lick, and with entire crew that’s in a groove and that is in rhythm, they can really cover some ground and before you knew it, a crew would be out of sight and quite a distance from their gear, with that distance growing with every tool stroke.
Then the problem comes when you try to bring the crew back together with their gear, does the entire crew hike back and if not, how many crewmembers would have to be taken out of the line to go back and retrieve it? So no…as a practical matter and for lots of reasons, a crew’s line gear has to stay on them.The key to me is to reduce the amount of weight a crew is carrying, there is not else that can be done in terms of carrying methods, they are light years ahead of where we were back in the day. And to really reduce the weight, you would have to able to guarantee flawless logistical support with regular resupply and well…that is not going to happen according to Murphy’s Law.
And specifically for Marti…the photo you were questioning appears to be a photo of a Type II crew comprised of casual or pick-up firefighters and they are treated differently and much less is expected from them for lots or reasons. And yes, for those guy’s strapping an aluminum and hard plastic gallon canteen around their shoulders with water that alone weighs eight pounds in addition to a 50 gallon track bag stuck in their pockets to cut holes in to make a poncho if it rains,well…that is about as good as it gets probably for THOSE kinds of crews even probably.
Also imagine if you can, how much those thin straps on that heavy canteen would cut into your shoulders and how that heavy canteen would feel banging you in the back of your head as you bend over and cut hand line or do other work bending over like mop up for hours on end.
It’s not a just job…it’s an adventure!
whoops I meant to say, “And yes, for those guy’s strapping an aluminum and hard plastic gallon canteen around their shoulders with water that alone weighs eight pounds in addition to a 50 gallon track bag stuck in their pockets to cut holes in to make a poncho if it rains,well…that is about as good as it gets probably for THOSE kinds of crews even probably TODAY.”
So when did pack animals fall ‘out of fashion’, then?
Mules don’t need pension plans, overtime, or even death benefits.
Any of those $250,000 Crew Carriers could easily haul some mule trailers.
Let the mules haul most of that shit… and just require the ground pounders to ALWAYS carry the shelters?
Just thinking out loud.
Well I do think you are right about cutting down on the gear. I have seen photos of those large blue packs the GMHS were carrying and I have wondered what was in them?
WTKTT
Mules—Pack 150 lbs. each that equates to 5 Mules and at least one handler. Some areas where Fire line is built you could never take a mule.
Just my rendering from working with pack animals.
Not sure what todays cost is on a back pack for Fire Fighters but they have been developed to be comfortable.
It depends on what they pack that makes up the weight.
Fire shelter, 8 to 16 lbs of water, 3 meals of food, coats, gloves, first aid kits, fusee’s , sig bottles of chain saw gas and oil, Head lamp and extra batteries, Radio and extra batteries, File, Flagging, Personal items–Cameras, socks, bandanas, Sawyers extra saw parts, file, saw shapes. and Chain Saw.
Not sure the final weight but some where between 30 and 45 Lbs.
I probably missed something but that is close.
A HS crew is outfitted to function for a 24 Hr. Shift. If they are left on the fire for many reasons.
*chuckles*
Having done both packs and mules, I think, for the purpose, I’d vote to stick with the packs.
More chuckles—-
Pack animals don’t like Fire at close range and Planes and Helicopters would scatter them like flies.
Packs are way more convenient——
The engineer in me is now picturing some fuel-cell powered mini-atv style mechanical MULE.
It can go ANYWHERE a man can go.
It never gets ‘spooked’. Not ever.
It never gets tired.
It doesn’t need pension, overtime, or death benefits.
It can carry all the SHIT that the men shouldn’t have to.
One steep further—–ROBOTS—-(FIREPROOF)
Thanks, Gary. Totally makes sense. Especially after watching this:
“Wildland Fire Go Pro Nevada Initial Attack”
https://youtu.be/GtWQ85q31aM
It’s pretty much the only thing I’ve see that shows the almost zen-like nature of building hand-line. And how quickly it moves.
The beginning of the video is a bit bumpy. But then it gets REALLY interesting.
Actually, one of the thoughts I’VE had is how much more comfortable those low-slung packs look than than the higher-up-on-the-back pack I used to haul all over the Grand Canyon.
Maybe they’re not, actually. But if I were still in my back-packing days, I’d surely be interested in trying that design out.
Gary forgot to mention Leap frog line construction in light fuels.
Done with 2 hot shot crews or with squads in the HS crew. very fast and
efficient line to get the max line construction in a fast movement.
Just adding on Gary did a good job of explaining above………..
Yes, I do think you are right, leap frogging is a faster line construction method. Maybe not as clean, but faster.
Packs have gotten a lot better. But the low slung packs are best if you’re bending over to use tools all day, and have a lot of upper body strength. They kind of suck for most women, because it’s tough to shift the weight to the hips. They also throw the weight out further from the body than a traditional hiking pack (think of 4-5 liters of water in a ring around the edge). Hard on the back and shoulders. I guess they’re pretty good for what they do and who uses them. They run about 35 pounds.
Marti, neat video, it say’s it all, the world has really changed, now almost everything is on YouTube.
Interesting related video:
“Wildland Fire – What’s in your Line Pack?” by Wandering Beast uploaded Nov 15, 2011:
https://youtu.be/aujC7wIs4Ys
Comes with a list.
WantsToKnowTheTruth says
April 10, 2015 at 10:04 pm
Reply to Marti Reed post on April 8, 2015 at 12:35 pm
>> Marti said…
>>
>> So, in looking around to find out if Prescott eNews had published what Lynne LaMaster
>> promised in her April 2 article………..
>>
>> “CITY ATTORNEY PALADINI COMPLETES INVESTIGATION OF ICMA ‘TAMPERING”…..
>> “Tomorrow we’ll look at some of the differences between the two reports.”
>>
>> ………which they still haven’t done……
>>
>> I discovered, via a facebook post on Prescott Firefighter’s Last Alarm, that
>> yesterday, on KCYA, there was an interview with Joe Stutler, the person who
>> did the wildland segment of the ICMA Report.
>>
>> The link on that facebook post goes to a website that doesn’t
>> have the interview archived.
>>
>> But KCMA does have it archived and it is here…
>>
>> Original MP3 audio file of this interview with Joe Stutler…
>>
>> http://www.kyca.info/audio/news/STUTLER%20WRAP.mp3
Thank you for finding this, Marti.
And here is a complete TRANSCRIPT of that RADIO interview with Joe Stutler.
** KYCA RADIO INTERVIEW WITH JOE STUTLER
Joe Stutler was the 3rd party contractor hired by ICMA to do the ‘Wildland’ evaluation for the report ICMA was hired to do for the City of Prescott.
Here he is being interviewed ( LIVE ) by radio station KYCA following Darrell Willis’ accusations ( in his own resignation letter ) that that part of the ICMA report was ‘tampered with’…
COMPLETE TRANSCRIPT OF THIS RADIO INTERVIEW
————————————————————————————
Announcer: The report ( in question ) is the wildland section of the ICMA analysis of the Prescott Fire Department. Former Wildland Division Chief Darrell Willis alleged in his letter of resignation last month that someone had tampered with it.
The man who investigated and wrote the wildland report at the request of the International County Management Association ( ICMA ), which had been retained by the City, was Joe Stutler, senior adviser to the Deschutes County Board of Commissioners in Bend, Oregon.
Mr. Stutler… DID someone tamper with your report?
Joe Stutler:
There’s not a yes or no answer there.
I was asked to work with ICMA on the report for the Prescott Fire Department and my particular area of expertise is wildland fire so I came to Prescott and did the interviews and field trip and looked around and so I put my report together and I sent it in to fellow professionals with ICMA that were dealing with EMS and dispatch and structural and the other aspects of Prescott Fire and I sent that in.
Must have been in February of 2014.
And then, ya know, it was like… ah… did not hear ANYTHING for several months despite several efforts to… ya know… coordinate the overall completion of the report.
And, as I recall, somewhere in June I found out that the ICMA report had been completed and submitted to the City of Prescott… and so I contacted ICMA said “Hey… I understand the report has been released. I’d like a copy of it”.
So when I got the copy of the report it was clear that my submissions to the overall report… the wildland thing… had in fact been changed.
If representatives from ICMA would have contacted me and said “Hey, we’re bringing this report together and let’s talk about these specific recommendations and in the context of the overall report”… I would have had that discussion and perhaps we could have reached common ground on some of the recommendations.
As it turned out… there was NO consultation and my report, that I was given credit for, was, in fact, changed.
And I don’t know WHO did that.
The only thing I know is that when I look at MY report and what I submitted and the final ICMA report… they were different.
The recommendations had been changed without any consultation whatsoever and, in fact, they had hired me to… ya know… do my best to represent the risk assessment. What I saw from a wildland fire perspective for Prescott. And so I did that.
And so I… when I got the report… I made contact with ICMA and I objected.
I said… ya know… that’s not my report and I don’t think it’s accurate in terms of what the risk… or the recommendations.
And so we went back and forth on that some… and finally ICMA says “Hey, we’re going to… uh… and we consent to you… you know… having contact with the City of Prescott and the Fire Chief and the Deputy City Manager to talk about your version of the report”… and I said “That’s great”.
So… within a day or so… I had a conference call with the Fire Chief and the Deputy City Manager… and I had forwarded them MY report… and we talked about the differences and MY assessment… and we had a very good discussion.
And they said thanks… thanked me for that… and then I had a subsequent email from the Chief with an action plan that he had for the report in terms of… you know… what it was going to take for ICMA, or Prescott, to… you know… implement some or all of the report… and I thought… that’s GOOD.
And I… and to… in fairness to the Chief and in fairness to the Deputy City Manager… uh… they listened… they asked good questions… and I… uh… understand that they… uh.. you know… they paid for a report and it’s going to be at that point a BUSINESS decision that the City of Prescott has for… you know… to… ah… implement all or some or none of the report.
That’s entirely up to them.
Announcer: At the request of City Councilman Charlie Arnold, City of Prescott Attorney Jon Paladini conducted and inquiry into Darrell Willis’ accusation of tampering. In a written report to the City Council, Paladini concluded that although there ARE differences in the draft report prepared by Joe Stutler and the final report presented to the City Council by ICMA… he could find NO evidence of tampering.
For the news 1490… I’m Don Steele.
————————————————————————————
END of KYCA RADIO INTERVIEW with Joe Stutler
Thanks for transcribing this.
I’m at the point, now. where, given what TTWARE has said, and various other things various other people have said in their comments on the Daily Courier articles, the proof was in the pudding before the (wink wink nod nod) start of this “independent” analysis and report.
It seems to me that there were, from the standpoint of what some call the “cabal,” i.e. the “good old boys” (which, all things considered, Willis et al might once have been a part of but clearly weren’t by this point), the mayor, the city manager, and various members of the City Council, approximately five issues here. But they’re intertwined, which is part of the complexity here.
1) Whether to keep hosting an IHC (which Fire Chief Dan Fraijo, understandably, needed a decision on ASAP). Or, if not that, what kind of thing to replace them with (which also Fire Chief Dan Fraijo needed a decision on ASAP).
2) What, generally speaking, kind of force configuration was needed, in order to maintain the capacity to respond to wildland fires that might endanger the city.
3) What, generally speaking, kind of crew was needed to do the fuels mitigation that the city needed.
4) Where and how to organize these varying, but still connected, operations within the Fire Department.
5) How to cut the costs of all of this. Which may be the biggest achilles heel in all of this in the long run.
It’s really really late fore me right now and I don’t have the two, but if I recall correctly, the biggest difference between his original report and the one that was then reprojected, was a downplay in the importance of maintaining a Wildland Division and a Crew to go with it.
The “city fathers” took that Division and wrapped it back inside of another Division in the Fire Department, and then, first hired, for, awhile an internal crew to do fuels mitigation, and are now proposing to outsource that function.
We’ve had our various conversations about the various alternatives that are possible, some of which might be less “expensive” than what Prescott was paying for by hosting an IHC crew.
What I have seen, ACTUALLY, in wandering around looking at things, is communities realizing the RISK they are in, putting forth MORE resources, both their own and their dollars (even with the similar financial pressures we are seeing in Prescott), to ramp UP the kind of stuff that Prescott is currently, as a result of this study, ramping DOWN.
So, I’m not sure what was said to Mr. Stutler to get him to go along to get along, so to speak.
I’m still not convinced, all things considered, that the City of Prescott is dong the right thing.
I was looking around, today, at various municipal and county Fire Departments in New Mexico involved in the Interagency Cooperative Wildfire Planning process, and I saw MANY that have Wildland Fire Divisions with significant high-level staffing and dedicated crews.
Reply to Marti Reed post on April 11, 2015 at 12:08 am
>> Marti said…
>>
>> What I have seen, ACTUALLY, in wandering around looking at
>> things, is communities realizing the RISK they are in, putting
>> forth MORE resources, both their own and their dollars (even
>> with the similar financial pressures we are seeing in Prescott),
>> to ramp UP the kind of stuff that Prescott is currently, as a
>> result of this study, ramping DOWN.
As for the ‘result of this study’ part… I think it’s worth noting that while there is NO QUESTION that final re-typed version of Joe Stutler’s original (raw) ‘Wildland Report’ that he delivered to whom HE was being paid to work for ( the ICMA itself ) was ‘condensed’ and ‘edited’… the original work he did about the potential Wildfire danger to Prescott was NOT changed all that much.
BOTH Joe Stutler’s original report AND the final edited version made it absolutely CLEAR that Prescott was ( and has always been ) in great danger of a CATASTROPHIC Wildfire incident.
Joe Stutler’s original (raw) draft contained TWO different ‘modeling’ studies for a CATASTROPHIC Widlfire even in the Prescott area. He used TWO different industry standard pieces of software to ‘model’ that. FARSITE and FsPro.
He even included ‘images’ and ‘fire spread projections’ from BOTH of those ‘modeling runs’ and he also explained what they meant in detail in the text of his original draft.
ALL of that data and information regarding these ‘modeling runs’ with FARSITE and FsPro survived ‘intact’ all the way to the FINAL report that was presented to the Prescott City Council.
So there really is no question that BOTH Joe Stutler’s original draft AND the final draft were BOTH painting the same picture of the high likelihood of a CATASTROPHIC Widlfire event being ‘highly likely’ in and around the City of Prescott.
Even Stutler’s warnings about how IF the limited Highway access to the area were to be ‘shut down’ by such an event for even a limited amount of time the effect on the local income would be as equally devastating to economic health Prescott as the fire itself.
So I really don’t know where Willis was coming from with regards to this ‘aspect’ of the ICMA report. Yes… the ‘Wildland’ section WAS a ‘condensed version’ of Stutler’s original… but the final draft was the same “pulling no punches” account of how disastrous ( and how likely ) a major Wildfire event could be as was Sutler’s original draft.
>> Marti also said…
>>
>> So, I’m not sure what was said to Mr. Stutler to get him to
>> go along to get along, so to speak.
According to Stutler himself… the CONFERENCE that he had just after the final report went to the Prescott City Council was, in fact, a full ‘review’ of both his ORIGINAL findings/recommendations AND a comparison to the published report.
He ( Stutler ) seemed to come out of that CONFERENCE fully convinced that regardless of how/why some of his ‘recommendations’ got changed from the original to the final draft(s)… there was then no doubt that the ‘decision makers’ were now fully aware of EVERYTHING he had said and/or recommended… and they would now take ALL of that into consideration as decisions were made.
So that’s why he eventually ‘signed off’ on the FINAL report.
He had had his OWN personal and direct conference with the decision makers and he walked away from that conference convinced that they had HEARD and UNDERSTOOD all of his original recommendations and why he had made them.
Unlike Darrell Willis, Stutler also apparently FULLY understood that no matter what was in that ‘Wildland’ section of the ICMA report… the City of Prescott was under NO obligation to pay ANY attention to ANY of it if they didn’t feel like it.
The entire purpose of the report was to just try and help the City Managers of Prescott make some hard BUSINESS decisions about what programs could still be supported given the ongoing budget crisis there in the City of Prescott.
And they DO have a TERRIBLE crisis. An estimated 60 million dollar deficit just for the upcoming 2015 budget year alone.
But regardless of what BUSINESS decisions we now see ‘going down’ in Prescott… there can be no doubt that the even the final version of the ‘Wildland’ section of the paid-for ICMA report represents a “You were WARNED” moment fo the City Managers of Prescott.
So what Willis is ‘railing’ against isn’t even so much who saw what version of a 3rd party contracted ‘Wildland’ section in a management report. Joe Stutler himself says that the people that ‘mattered’ definitely ended up seeing “all there is to see” there and he was, himself, SURE that they did.
What is upsetting Willis is the actual BUSINESS decisions that HAVE been made by the City Managers of Prescott.
He simply doesn’t AGREE with those decisions. That’s all.
What he intends to DO about that ( run for Mayor himself? ) remains to be seen.
Followup…
In the “You were WARNED” category… it’s interesting to note that even though MOST of Stutler’s original ‘additional consequences’ text regarding a CATASTROPHIC Widlfire hitting Prescott were left ‘intact’ all the way to the FINAL report… there was ONE thing Stutler mentioned that was TOTALLY REMOVED.
This ENTIRE paragraph from his original draft…
———————————————————
2. The political risk for both elected officials and local government
officials/leaders would be significant given the wildland fire risk is both
KNOWN and WELL DOCUMENTED, and sufficient mitigation to reduce
the risk is NOT taken and maintained.
———————————————————
In other words… even though the ‘rewrite’ was still pointing out all the DANGER… the part where Stutler himself was telling them that one of the ‘consequences’ of not being fully PREPARED for the event would be serious POLITICAL consequences is one of the only things that was FULLY REMOVED in the ‘final draft’.
**
** BRENDAN MCDONOUGH SEEKS PSPRS MEDICAL DISABILITY PENSION
This was published last night by AZCENTRAL…
AZCENTRAL
Article Title: Surviving hotshot from Yarnell Hill Fire seeks pension
Published 10:54 p.m. MST April 9, 2015 by Yvonne Wingett Sanchez
http://www.azcentral.com/story/news/arizona/investigations/2015/04/10/surviving-granite-mountain-hotshot-seeks-pension-benefits/25563257/
From the article…
—————————————————————————
Brendan McDonough, the sole surviving Granite Mountain hotshot, has inquired about state pension benefits nearly two years after the crew perished in the Yarnell Hill Fire, The Arizona Republic has learned.
McDonough, a former seasonal Prescott employee, did not pay into the Public Safety Personnel Retirement System, but he hopes to file for a “PSPRS medical disability retirement,” according to notes from a Prescott City Council briefing. He is not a member of the system and has not yet filed a claim.
Since McDonough was not a member of PSPRS and did not file for a medical retirement within a year of leaving his position with the city, the records said, “there does not appear to be a basis for his request.”
McDonough did not respond to requests for comment.
—————————————————————————
And ( just like clockwork ) the Prescott Daily Courier has now ‘followed up’ with their own article about Brendan seeking a retirement pension with an article published just a few hours ago….
The Prescott Daily Courier
Article Title: McDonough inquires with city about PSPRS benefits
Published: 4/10/2015 9:28:00 PM
http://dcourier.com/main.asp?SectionID=1&SubSectionID=1&ArticleID=144033
From the article…
——————————————————————-
PRESCOTT – Surviving Granite Mountain Hotshot Brendan McDonough has yet to make an official claim, but Prescott city officials say he has inquired about the possibility of applying for Public Safety Personnel Retirement System (PSPRS) benefits.
McDonough reportedly approached the city’s human resources department recently about applying for medical disability through the PSPRS.
In response to that inquiry, Human Resources Analyst Melissa Fousek sent McDonough an email on April 1, noting that the local fire PSPRS board’s attorney Donna Aversa had advised that McDonough would need to provide a copy of his claim to the local board, the City of Prescott, and the PSPRS administrator.
McDonough, who has declined a request for a comment, earlier said he was dealing with post traumatic stress disorder.
——————————————————————-
Am I the only one who is just cynical enough to wonder about the actual TIMING here?
The guy has had almost TWO years to be officially diagnosed with PTSD and get the help he needs… and only NOW some information is coming out that he thinks he still has it so bad that he deserves an actual ‘disablility pension’?
The TIMING *could* be related to all the news that has been ‘popping’ lately.
On ‘official’ diagnosis of PTSD would be a pretty convenient ‘answer’ to the upcoming questions he is going to have to answer about WHY he was basically choosing to ‘obstruct’ two official investigations into the cause of the tragedy.
This *could* even be something that is happening on the advice of his criminal attorney, Mr. David Shapiro.
Just saying you *think* you might have PTSD is one thing.
Actually filling out paperwork that is going to claim you DO have it ( and have always had it ) takes it more into the realm of ‘proof’ that could be admitted as ‘evidence’ when/if you need to ‘explain’ WHY you may or may not have done certain things.
Either way… I believe it’s not possible to achieve a PTSD related retirement pension without there being some kind of OFFICIAL diagnosis.
Maybe filing this paperwork begins the process of accomplishing that and ‘making it official’.
Again. The TIMING just seems a little ‘contrived’ here.
I find this really interesting, all things considered. And totally confusing. And also mystifying.
Retirement? Medical Disability?
OK. He’s probably seriously suffering from PTSD.That I can grant him. I’ve said it all along.
I just don’t know how to even evaluate this whatsoever.
As the AZCENTRAL article points out ( but NOT the PDC article )… records indicate that for a full year following the tragedy… Brendan’s was on some kind of ‘workmen’s comp’ claim that required periodic ‘check ins’ to keep the money flowing.
At NO time did he make a move to apply for any kind of ‘disability’, or mention to the people checking his claim status that he thought he had PTSD.
It is only “recently” ( as reported in BOTH articles ) that he started making inquiries about how to apply for a ‘medial disability’ through the City channels.
BOTH articles state that the response letter from Melissa Fousek of Prescott Human Resources ( Yes… the same Melissa Fousek who was on the GM Crew Boss selection committee in 2013 ) was sent back to Brendan on April 1, 2015.
That was just 10 days ago.
So think about the TIMING here.
That means Brendan made his INITIAL inquiries about obtaining ‘medical disability’ probably no farther back than just about 2 weeks ago.
If He was on workman’s Comp. he was still on the Fire departments employee roster they could not remove him as an employee while on Workman’s Comp I do not believe but I Could be wrong
Well… the following information published in the AZCENTRAL article ( but not in the PDC one ) says that Brendan DID actually ‘resign’ from the Prescott Fire Department… but then in the same ‘breathe’ it also says records show he continued to attend ‘worker-compensation evaluations’ even after that.
So I’m not really sure WHAT that means.
If he was even ‘attending’ any ‘evaluations’ related to ‘workers-compensation’… I assume that means he was still receiving some kind of WC benefits… even though he had ‘resigned’.
From the AZCENTRAL article…
————————————————————-
McDonough resigned from the city last year in the aftermath of the June 2013 fire, which claimed the lives of 19 of his colleagues. McDonough now works for a Boise, Idaho-based wildland firefighting organization.
Since the fire, according to the city records, McDonough has attended periodic worker-compensation evaluations overseen by the city’s risk-management pool.
Since McDonough was not a member of PSPRS and did not file for a medical retirement within a year of leaving his position with the city, the records said, “there does not appear to be a basis for his request.”
———————————————————–
Thanks, WTKTT!
Now it’s making a bit more sense to me. I was getting really tripped up by just all the language.
Having never been a “public employee,” sometimes I get a little bit lost in all this bureaucratic benefits stuff.
Even as one it can be a total jungle to employees as well.
**
** AGENDA FOR TODAY’S MEETING OF THE YARNELL MEMORIAL SITE BOARD
The next scheduled meeting of the PUBLIC Yarnell Hill Fire Memorial Site Board is bascially taking place right now ( 3:00 PM, April 10, 2015 ).
The AGENDA for this meeting was required to be made public weeks ago… but it was only posted on the following site THIS MORNING…
http://azstateparks.com/committees/Yarnell.html
This agenda now has some attachments in it not seen in other agendas which proves that the Board HAS agreed to go ahead and purchase the actual land where the tragedy occurred and we now also see a DATE being set for the required AUCTION of that land.
The land is PUBLIC TRUST land and can’t be ‘given’ to anyone. It has to be sold at PUBLIC AUCTION.
That auction is going to be held on June 30, 2015.
Here is the exact entry from the agenda…
“June 30, 2015 at 11:00AM the ASLD will sell the land at Public Auction to the
highest and best bidder for the purpose of the Yarnell Hill Memorial. The auction
will be held at the Yavapai County Courthouse, Prescott, AZ.”
The document now also answers the question about whether they are going to purchase the ENTIRE 320 acres that constitutes the entire ‘South half of Section 9’… or whether they were going to just purchase the EAST half of that southern half of Section 9 where the deployment site is located.
They are going to try to purchase all 320 acres. The entire south half of Section 9.
There is still no word whether that small group of ‘widows’ who wanted to purchase the same land and be the ones to ‘control’ who has access to the deployment site will be participating in this PUBLIC auction, or not.
The MINUTES for this PUBLIC Yarnell Hill Memorial Site Board meeting are supposed to be made public within 72 hours following this meeting… but this Board has also never been paying any attention to that part of the ‘Arizona Open Meetings’ laws so there’s no telling when they minutes from today’s meeting might actually show up.
Followup…
The AGENDA for today’s scheduled Yarnell Memorial Site Board meeting is also accompanied by a ‘PowerPoint’ presentation that is supposed to be used during today’s meeting.
This PowerPoint presentation is right under today’s agenda at the following site…
http://azstateparks.com/committees/Yarnell.html
It shows, for the first time, what the PROPOSED ‘access’ to the site might look like.
Since the Board has been unable to get any of the landowners in Glen Ilah and Yarnell to cooperate with regards to granting ANY ‘rights of way’ or ‘access rights’ through their property and out to that south half of Section 9… the PROPOSED access now appears to be a LONG TRAIL coming in from the SOUTH all the way from Highway 89 at the base
of the Weaver Mountains.
Not only will it be a LONG hike just to even get near the site… it will be an extreme CLIMB up from Highway 89 to the top of the Weavers.
The trail coming in from the SOUTH would actually ‘fetch up’ and arrive at that south half of Section 9 right about at the spot where the high-ridge two-track road takes that sudden
turn EAST and goes towards the Boulder Springs Ranch.
In other words… right about the point where the hikers Joy Collura and Tex (Sonny) Gilligan actually exited the area that day as they were coming off the high ridge.
There would, apparently, be some PARKING area also created way down on Highway 89 where this trail would start, but that is not pictured in the PowerPoint presentation.
They also have the minutes from the February 27th meeting posted now, also.
Yes. Interesting points…
1) NOBODY who owns any land surrounding the proposed memorial site wants to grant any ‘rights of way’ or ‘access rights’…. and they don’t have the money to start forcing the issue with anyone.
2) Mr. King DID ask directly if Lee and DJ Helm might be willing to SELL their property. Yarnell Fire Chief Ben Palm basically said “no way”. Mr. King followed that up with saying they shouldn’t take that as a definite NO… and should still keep pursuing that option. No mention was made of the fact that Lee and DJ Helm are part of the ‘property damage’ lawsuits against Arizona Forestry and are asking for 6+ million dollars in ‘damages’… and maybe that could be used as a ‘negotiating point’ here to try and actually OBTAIN the property itself.
3) No progress at all on a ‘design’ for the site. The only agreement is that it should probably be ‘very simple’ for three reasons. It will keep costs down, it will ‘respect’ what is being described as ‘sacred ground’ AND ( the most practical reason )… if it gets too ‘complicated’ or ‘advanced’ then they MIGHT bump up against State/Federal park requirements for BATHROOMS and ADA ( American Disablities Act ) requirements for handicap access to all aspects of the ‘memorial’.
4) The ‘Donations’ mechanism has been active on the Memorial Board website since February and their have been over 3,000 visits to that part of the site… but only $600 ( SIX HUNDRED ) dollars has been donated so far.
Forgot one ( interesting point from the Feb 27 minutes ).
5) The architect that is ‘donating’ his services to help propose ‘ideas’ for the memorial site itself wants everyone to ‘meet’ out there at the site and they set a tentative date of March 14 for that… but then concerns were expressed that if this Board schedules a ‘meeting’ out there ( and a quorum of Board members ends up in attendance ) then according to ‘Arizona Open Meetings’ laws this is now a ‘regularly scheduled meeting’ of this PUBLIC Board and the PUBLIC itself has to then be notified about it AND also ‘invited to attend’.
NO ONE wants THAT to ever happen… so they are now trying to figure out how to ‘meet’ out at the site WITHOUT it being an actual ‘scheduled meeting’ of this PUBLIC Board.
I guess we will find out in the ‘next’ set of minutes if they ever did ‘figure that out’ and how they accomplished that.
**
** “ARIZONA FORESTRY VERSUS ADOSH” ALJ HEARING FILES CONSOLIDATED
Something really strange just happened with all those “Arizona Forestry vs. ADOSH”
ALJ Hearing files sitting at the following PUBLIC URL…
https://sites.google.com/site/yarnellhillinformation/home/yarnellhillaljhearingfile
All of a sudden… they ALL show an ‘Update Time’ of April 8, 2015 ( between 11:47 and 11:48 AM ).
That includes the ALJ Hearing File documents going all the way back to July, 2013.
I think what has happened here is that someone (??) just CONSOLIDATED everything so that every single file represents everything that happened in any particular MONTH since they first started posting documents in July of 2013.
I don’t see anything MISSING or REMOVED yet… but I’m still comparing them to the originals.
From what I can tell… this REORG and CONSOLDATION was done to hide the fact that they online ALJ Hearing File page has NOT been being updated on the ‘first business day’ of each week as the home page for the ALJ Hearings says it is supposed to be.
Example: The documents that were only uploaded the other day, but had obviously been written/delivered back in MARCH have now been dumped BACK into the previous MARCH, 2015 filename. This masks the fact that they were 3 weeks late posting these documents.
Since all of the ‘Update’ dates on ALL of the Hearing files are now the SAME DAY ( April 8, 2015 ),
it is impossible to see now that they have never really been updating this online page according to the frequency required. ( First business day of each week ).
The file for April now ONLY contains that MANIFEST of all the documents/photos/videos that the SAIT delivered to ADOSH ( and where they all came from in the first place ) and the notice that the final ALJ Hearing has been moved from July to October 13, 2015.
** THE MANIFEST
Still combing through that extensive MANIFEST of EVIDENCE that Arizona Forestry says represents the totality of what THEY received from Jim Karel’s and Mike Dudley’s SAIT team.
Found another ‘interesting’ entry.
Remember: This MANIFEST is a reproduction of that the SAIT supposedly gave to Arizona Forestry who, in turn, is now supposed to be FULLY supplying to ADOSH.
So that means the ‘ORIGIN OF EVIDENCE’ column in the manifest itself was (supposedly) all filled out by people on the SAIT side of the equation.
This MANIFEST is saying that the SAIT is telling Arizona Forestry it received all of Christopher MacKenzie’s CANON Camera photos and videos from the Yavapai County Sheriff’s Office.
That does NOT match the ‘story’ told by Darrell Willis how HE received a CD back from MacKenzie’s father after he gave him the actual camera… and it was then Darrell Willis who supposedly passed that CD full of photos and videos on to the SAIT.
There is NO EVIDENCE in any of the YCSO documents to indicate that the YCSO ever had Christopher MacKenzie’s camera in their possession at any time or that this CANON Camera was ever examined by them or officially entered into the evidence record.
Check-out John’s new article above.
http://www.investigativemedia.com/mcdonough-will-testify-if-legally-required/
Kudos to John Dougherty for this important article.
He went as close to the ‘source’ as he could. Brendan’s lawyer David Shapiro.
In addition to answers to questions no other reporter seemed to even want to bother to find out… here are some other things we now know because of John’s good work…
1) Brendan’s attorney fees are NOT being paid for by the City of Prescott, or Arizona Forestry, or U. S. Forestry, or any external ‘Firefighter’ support organization. His criminal defense attorney ( David Shapiro ) is representing him ‘pro bono’ ( for free ).
2) The actual Arizona Attorney General was NOT present in that initial face-to-face meeting when Willis disclosed what Brendan told him privately to Arizona ‘officials’. It was simply some subset of staff attorneys from the Arizona Attorney General’s office.
3) It appears now that when SAIT co-leader Mike Dudley shot his mouth off on June 20, 2014 during his speech to that roomful of Utah firefighters and revealed that the SAIT had been told by more than one person there was an ‘argument’ between Marsh and Steed… that that had a lot to do with Brendan deciding to come forward soon after that information became PUBLIC and have that talk with Willis.
It should be noted that the fact remains that whichever ‘multiple persons’ SAIT Co-Lead Mike Dudley said had told the SAIT they heard an ‘argument’… it still appears that none of THOSE ‘persons’ was Brendan McDonough himself.
That still means the most likely ‘multiple persons’ that Mike Dudley was referring to were one or more of the three Blue Ridge Hotshots that had been driving the other Granite Mountain vehicles, which had the GM intra-net crew frequency automatically set as the PRIORITY radio channel.
The Blue Ridge Hotshots are still under a GAG ORDER from the U.S. Forestry Service and are still not allowed to talk about what any of them heard that day… if they want to keep their jobs.
According to this new article… David Shapiro said…
“The complexities of this situation are sufficient that Brendan isn’t going to make any statement until it is proper for him to do so,” Shapiro says. “When the time comes when it is legally proper for him to tell his side of the story, he will do it.”
Until it is PROPER for him to do so?
When the TIME comes?
Really?
The TIME when it was PROPER for Brendan to have told people tasked with investigating this incident everything he knows has COME and GONE over and over and over ( Yes, at least THREE times. SAIT interview and TWO ADOSH interviews ).
There is still going to have to come a moment for Brendan when he needs to ALSO supply an good EXPLANATION why he was ‘choosing’ to basically ‘obstruct’ official investigation(s).
No… I still don’t think there’s any chance of Brendan actually being CHARGED with that offense ( A Class 2 misdemeanor )… but it’s also still perfectly obvious now that he has actually COMMITTED that offense and he needs to explain WHY he chose to do that.
A lot of people think that the answer to that is ‘easy’ ( That he was scared, that he was trying to protect the ‘reputation’ of his ‘brothers’, yada, yada, yada )…
…but there might have been more to it than that.
Until Brendan himself says WHY he actually decided to ‘obstruct’ those official investigations… or if he was being ‘advised’ to do so… we won’t REALLY know ‘the full story’.
“Oh… what a tangled web we weave when first we practice to deceive”.
Sir Walter Scott, Marmion, Canto vi. Stanza 17.
Scottish author & novelist (1771 – 1832)
Followup…
Notice ( in this new article ) that not for one second does Brendan’s attorney Daivid Shapiro make any attempt to DENY anything that has just recently been published with regards to ‘the story’ already being reported.
That can be construed to mean it really is all TRUE… but he is just doing his job now as an attorney and trying to control the circumstances when Brendan has to finally CONFIRM the already-released information… and also finally supply the DETAILS that haven’t been published yet.
He knew they were coming off that mountain and yet he never called them to tell them what the fire was doing. Did he not want to interfere with his supervisors? He should have said something to the BR Superintendent when they brought the drivers for the trucks.
This is the other contention I have had for a long time the look out should have been minimum— Strike Team Leader Qualified— Not a 2 year FF who was sick.
There is just so many things a good lookout could have done.?????????
I think its going to take a little time for the new information to actually sink in… including the fact that for all intents and purposes… it all appears to be ‘confirmed’.
In Brendan’s case… the ‘story for public consumption’ for so long has been that he ‘signed off’ with Steed on the radio saying “Call me if you need me” and then he never know what his own Crew was doing after that.
Since that is now most apparently NOT the case… yes… a LOT of ‘new questions’ are now lying right there on the table.
And not just surrounding what Brendan did or didn’t do… or what the others who may have had this knowledge did or didn’t do ( The Blue Ridge Hotshots ).
The new information calls a lot of things into question.
If Brendan KNEW they were ‘on the move’ and where they were headed, and there was even the SLIGHTEST chance they might not have known how fast the fire was ‘blowing up’… why would Brendan even hesitate to just do a ‘reality check’ with them since he was (still?) their ‘designated lookout’ that day?
Absolute proof of a ‘Lesson Learned’ and why someone who doesn’t know how to take initiative should NEVER be assigned as a ‘lookout’?
If Marsh really was either near or already at the BSR at ANY point in time prior to the disaster… did SPGS1 Gary Cordes KNOW that?
Could THAT be why he ‘wasn’t surprised where they were’ and why he was telling Esquibel to send that engine ( or two ) to the BSR?
Somehow… Cordes had NO DOUBT that at least Marsh has made it there and needed a ‘pickup’?
And there is still the YARNELL-GAMBLE video.
Based on the NEW information… when we hear Marsh saying “They’re coming from the heel of the fire” at EXACTLY 4:27 PM… then that does place Marsh way out AHEAD of them ( at or near the BSR ) at 4:27 PM and his “coming from” reference was, indeed, from the perspective of “I’m DOWN HERE already… but THEY are ‘still coming'”.
WHO was Marsh actually talking to there on the public TAC channel?
It is still VERY important to know because, at 4:27 PM, there was still time for an intervention that day.
What does this new information do for the 4:17 PM transmission when we hear Marsh avoid the direct question from ( someone? WHO? ) as to whether he was “with Granite Mountain’ and he dodged that question with “Just checkin’ it out to see where we’re gonna jump out at”.
In the context of the NEW information… what does THAT actually mean now? “Jump out” from WHERE? The Boulder Springs Ranch?
Does that really indicate that getting to the BSR was just ‘phase 1′ of the plan and Marsh was still “Checkin’ it out to see where we gonna jump out at” after the men arrived there… to ‘fulfill the mission’?
What WAS the ‘mission’, really?
Just to get to the BSR… or there was already even more of a ‘plan’ in place?
Does Brendan know what the FULL plan was?
And… of course… the mother of all questions now.
If Marsh was anywhere out AHEAD of those men that day and acting as de-facto ‘Forward Lookout’ for them… then why are they all dead?
**
** WHO WAS REALLY AT THAT FIRST ‘MEETING’ WITH WILLIS AND PALADINI?
**
** HOW ABOUT THE ACTUAL ARIZONA STATE ATTORNEY GENERAL.
In the “I just now picked up on this” category with regards to the most recent Daily Courier article, I just noticed that unlike the AZCENTRAL article, the PDC article actually now tells us EXACTLY WHO was at that initial ‘meeting’ that Willis and Paladini arranged after Willis gave McDonough one full weekend to get his information to investigators… and Brendan failed to do that.
That’s when Willis got with Palladini ( and Arizona Forestry people? ) and told him/them what Brendan told him, and then someone ( Paladini? AZF people? ) arranged a meeting to inform ‘higher ups’ about all of it.
We FIRST heard that this kind of ‘meeting’ took place in the ALJ Hearing file when Arizona Forestry Lawyer David Selden was ‘talking’ directly to ALJ Judge Mosesso.
The actual quote ( from the ALJ Hearing file document ) was…
———————————————————————————-
Respondent ( Arizona Forestry ) has received CREDIBLE information from RELIABLE sources, including a Prescott official in the presence of the Prescott City Attorney ( John Paladini ), that Mr. McDonough heard radio transmissions BETWEEN crew members about their tragic actions in leaving the safety of “the black” and heading TOWARDS the location at which they perished.
———————————————————————————–
This always sounded like it might have been just a CONFERENCE CALL with Arizona Forestry lawyers ( David Selden, etc. ) on one end of the phone and Willis and Palladini on the other end.
But now we see this being reported in the latest PDC article…
———————————————————————————-
Willis said he told McDonough that he would give him a few days to take the information forward. When McDonough did not follow that advice, Willis contacted the State Forestry Department, as well as Paladini, about the new information.
That led to a Phoenix meeting, at which Willis was interviewed by officials with State Forestry, the Arizona Division of Occupational Safety and Health (ADOSH), and the Arizona Attorney General. Paladini said he sat in as Willis’ attorney.
———————————————————————————-
So that means this ‘moment they learned the information’ being reported by the Arizona Forestry lawyers in one of their letters to Jude Mosesso in the ALJ Hearing file which suggested it was some ‘phone call’ or ‘meeting’ between just THEM and (quote) “a Prescott official in the presence of the Prescott City Attorney” was much MORE than that.
According to the PDC article… there were a LOT more people there, including the Arizona Attorney General himself.
PDC article says everyone got in their cars and went to a ‘special’ face-to-face meeting somewhere in Phoenix and the ‘cast of characters’ PRESENT at that ‘meeting’ now includes…
1) Officials (lawyers? others?) with Arizona State Forestry.
2) Officials (lawyers? others?) with ADOSH.
3) The (actual) Arizona Attorney General himself.
4) Jon Paladini, Prescott City Attorney.
5) Darrell Willis, Former Prescott Wildland Division Chief.
So (apparently) the actual Arizona Attorney General was ‘in on this’ and also one of the first to hear this ‘new information’ being reported by Darrell Willis.
The PDC article ( unlike the AZCENTRAL article ) also now puts an exact DATE / TIMELINE on when all of this went down.
From the PDC article…
———————————————————————-
As Willis tells it, McDonough contacted him in October 2014 with new information, and Willis told him that he needed to “come forward with this” to the people who were investigating the fire.
That was late on a Friday – Oct. 10, 2014 – and Willis said he told McDonough that he would give him a few days to take the information forward. When McDonough did not follow that advice, Willis contacted the State Forestry Department, as well as Paladini, about the new information.
———————————————————————-
So here’s the ‘timeline’…
1) McDonough contacts Willis on Friday, October 10, 2014 and ‘spills his guts’ to Willis.
2) Willis realized the gravity of this, tells him “this can’t just sit with me” ( according to
AZCENTRAL article ) and Willis gives McDonough just the weekend to “do the right thing”
and go to ‘higher ups’ and tell him the same story.
3) Brendan does nothing all weekend.
4) Come Monday, October 12, Willis takes action on his own.
5) Willis goes to Prescott City Attorney Jon Paladini ( same day? ) and tells HIM the story.
6) Jon Paladini makes some phone calls and sets up a face-to-face meeting with others.
7) Within ( I imagine ) a day or two… a face-to-face meeting takes place in Phoenix.
Face-to-face meeting included ALL of the following people…
1) Officials (lawyers? others?) with Arizona State Forestry.
2) Officials (lawyers? others?) with ADOSH.
3) The (actual) Arizona Attorney General himself.
4) Jon Paladini, Prescott City Attorney.
5) Darrell Willis, Former Prescott Wildland Division Chief.
What’s blowing my mind here is that if any kind of ‘coverup’ is now going to be ‘alleged’ over this whole thing… it isn’t just some lawyers playing games in the background.
The actual frickin’ ATTORNEY GENERAL for the state of Arizona was (apparently) ‘in on it’.
Followup…
A point I forgot to make up above is that if this ‘face-to-face’ meeting in Phoenix went down like the latest PDC article says it did… then it sounds EXACTLY like it was sort of ‘psuedo-deposition’ with a LOT of lawyers present and it took place in front of the Arizona Attorney General himself.
Again… this part from the PDC article…
———————————————————-
That led to a Phoenix meeting, at which Willis was interviewed by officials with State Forestry, the Arizona Division of Occupational Safety and Health (ADOSH), and the Arizona Attorney General. Paladini said he sat in as Willis’ attorney.
———————————————————-
So you can forget about Paladini saying the only time he ‘wrote anything down’ was that memo he sent to the Prescott City Council.
The way the PDC article describes this actual face-to-face meeting… complete with Willis being ‘interviewed’ by lawyers ( and REPRESENTED by one – Paladini ) in front of the Arizona Attorney General himself…
…I find it NOT CREDIBLE that there would not also be a TRANSCRIPT of this original ‘interview’ and EXACTLY what former Prescott Wildland Division Chief Darrell Willis was now ‘testifying to’ in front of a chorus of lawyers AND the actual Arizona State Attorney General himself.
To have NOT had a stenographer present at that meeting would almost amount to ‘negligence’ on the part of all those attorneys… the Attorney General included.
I’m breaking the rule I decided upon yesterday (for the third time) to not post because I need to turn my path in the direction of elsewhere, at this time. But. I’m still reading and thank you (and everyone else) for this conversation.
The question I still have at the moment is this:
In the midst of all of this, what do you think of Darrel Willis’ charge that this revelation on the part of Palladini is a violation of his “attorney-client privilege” vis a vis Willis?
I am so seriously fuzzy about most of this whole legal stuff.
Although, I appreciate what you have said about that memo. As I have perused the City Council meetings/minutes, I have found that when they have a “Special” meeting, i.e., one in which they go into Executive Session, the Minutes of that Executive Session include a description of what that Session is in relationship to.
I’m not sure of how that specifically relates to a “Memo,” but I’m sure there’s some relationship to it.
Regarding the comments people are making regarding Brendan’s credibility, at this point, given everything including TIME, there are also comments regarding the credibility of these major players, including the following:
———————-
Stan Wnenta With NO disrespect to the 19, this tragedy is starting to smell bad. It sounds like information has been with held, lawyers hiding facts, and the public, who put out their hearts, are not allowed to know the truth because of legalities. Why would they possibly want to hide anything? Whats going on here?
Reply · Like · 2 · Follow Post · 13 hours ago
Claire Elizabeth Caldwell How do you think the families feel?
Reply · Like · 9 · 11 hours ago
What a circus.
Right now, at this exact moment, I’m sitting here thinking, all things considered,
The best thing Brendan could do right now, if he really cares about people like Claire Elizabeth Caldwell, is go over to the Prescott Daily Courier offices and sit down with Joanna Dodder (who is really good, imho, and just TALK.
Acknowledging that he’s been in shock and PTSD (understandably) and he has no idea what agendas the people that have been “advising” him have had, and that he may not be able to remember everything that happened and that he heard correctly, but this is what he is thinking now about what he heard and experienced, and that this has been the absolutely the most terrifying thing he has ever gone through.
That would move his story completely out of the realm of this whole friggin MACHINE and hand it over to the families, including Claire Elizabeth Caldwell, and the totally confused public,
I think he would be forgiven by mostly all who matter.
Even if what he has to say is a story that is really really really painful for a number of people to hear.
Pain is survivable.
Thanks Marti if you drop off stop by from time to time we enjoy your statements and info at least I do.
Your welcome Bob. And also thank you.
And yes I totally will. I just need to break my addiction to this and turn most of my attention to a mountain of stuff I’d much rather not do.
And I reiterate that, if someone (with credibility and/or experience) wants to correct me on my “rotating column” model/theory, I am really open to that.
Reply to Marti Reed post on April 10, 2015 at 1:30 am
>> Marti said…
>>
>> Right now, at this exact moment, I’m sitting here thinking,
>> all things considered,
>>
>> The best thing Brendan could do right now, if he really
>> cares about people like Claire Elizabeth Caldwell, is go
>> over to the Prescott Daily Courier offices and sit down
>> with Joanna Dodder (who is really good, imho, and
>> just TALK.
Brendan now has to deal with the old assumption “Once a LIAR… always a LIAR”.
Even if he went ‘on camera’ right now… he will STILL need to be DEPOSED in this matter.
There are just too many people that will be realizing he has ALWAYS had his own AGENDA that won’t be ready to believe he isn’t STILL just following his own mysterious AGENDA unless what they are hearing came out ‘under oath’ and under actual penalty of PERJURY.
Even then… a lot of people won’t be believing it.
He’s dug a pretty deep hole for himself here and he’s gonna get ‘dirty’ as he claws his way out of it.
He should have thought of that ( or been advised it would happen ) before he ever started pursuing this mysterious AGENDA of his.
Dont’ forget… this guy was specially appointed by the Arizona Speaker of the House to serve on the publicly funded ‘Yarnell Hill Site Memorial Board’. Whether he now gets to REMAIN on that publicly funded Board is just one more piece of ‘fallout’ he’s going to have to deal with.
Reply to Marti Reed post on April 10, 2015 at 1:01 am
>> Marti said…
>>
>> The question I still have at the moment is this:
>>
>> In the midst of all of this, what do you think of Darrel Willis’
>> charge that this revelation on the part of Palladini is a violation
>> of his “attorney-client privilege” vis a vis Willis?
I think Darrell Willis was under the mistaken impresssion that just because Prescott City Attorney Jon Paladini might have even been sitting by his side during that interview with AZF and ADOSH lawyers… that he and Paladini automatically had some kind of (private) attorney/client relationship.
That is NOT the case.
Paladini’s CLIENT is the City of Prescott itself, and not any one individual employee.
Willis was still an EMPLOYEE of the City of Prescott when he walked into Paladini’s office with this ‘story’. He is/was also the actual former “Wildland Division Chief” for the City.
That makes whatever happened next simply a City Attorney being concerned about whether information that might be about to go public from a FORMER City of Prescott employee ( Brendan McDonough ) would expose his client ( The City of Prescott ) to ‘new’ LIABILITIES with regards to the death of 19 Prescott City Employees at the Yarnell Hill Fire.
Willis was just a ‘middleman’ and just a ‘piece on the chessboard’ at that point, and not Paladini’s private ‘client’. It was an Employer/Employee thing, and not a regular attorney/client thing that was now taking place.
Willis ALSO contacted State Forestry Scott Hunt at the same time he engaged with Paladini. If Willis had ANY ‘expectations of privacy’ about the information he was imparting… then why did he do THAT?
If he just ASSUMED that what HE had to say would stay in the ‘inner circles’, and remain under any kind of attorney/client implications… then he should have NEVER also contacted non-attorney Scott Hunt. He should have just stuck with Paladini only and also gotten ASSURANCES that the conversations would be considered by Paladini as pure attorney/client stuff.
>> Marti also said…
>>
>> Although, I appreciate what you have said about that memo.
>> As I have perused the City Council meetings/minutes, I have found
>> that when they have a “Special” meeting, i.e., one in which they go
>> into Executive Session, the Minutes of that Executive Session
>> include a description of what that Session is in relationship to.
That’s because Arizona Law REQUIRES it be done that way.
The ACTUAL nuts-and-bolts CONTENT of the Executive Session still have to be ‘transcribed’ and ‘recorded’ exactly the way the law requires for the PUBLIC parts of the meeting… but those ‘Executive Session’ transcripts are NOT required to be available within 72 hours after the meeting… as the LAW requires for the PUBLIC minutes.
Those ‘Executive Session’ transcripts must ( by Law ) also exist… but they remain exempt from the simple ‘Public’s right to know’ laws regarding Arizona Open Meetings.
That does NOT mean they are ‘automatically’ exempt from an ‘Arizona Open Records’ request or ‘out of reach’ of the Arizona Court system, however.
Those ‘Executive Session’ transcripts are never PERMANENTLY out of the reach of an Arizona Open Records request and/or a FOIA/FOIL request and/or a Court request. It depends on what the ‘Executive Session’ was ABOUT, really, and THAT is required by Law to be PUBLIC information.
It’s complicated… but it’s not like some City Council is the equivalent of the “National Security Agency”, or something.
Example: If there is an allegation that the ‘Executive Session’ itself was not for one of the valid reasons you are even allowed to have one ( and there are, in fact, a limited range of valid reasons )… or that the ‘Executive Session’ itself violated some other rule of the Arizona Open Meetings laws… the Arizona Attorney General’s Office is automatically entitled to see EVERYTHING as they investigate the matter… and if some City Council doesn’t cough up the transcripts from the Executive Session… someone can actually go to JAIL over it.
>> Marti also said…
>>
>> I’m not sure of how that specifically relates to a “Memo,” but I’m
>> sure there’s some relationship to it.
We still don’t know what Paladini meant by a (quote) “MEMO to the City Council”.
Did he mean just ONE memo… to ONE of the Council members… or did he ‘CC’ (Copy) EVERY member of the council?
Does Paladini consider an EMAIL to be a MEMO… or was this actually typed up and hand-delivered?
>> Marti also said…
>>
>> Regarding the comments people are making regarding Brendan’s
>> credibility, at this point, given everything including TIME, there are
>> also comments regarding the credibility of these major players,
>> including the following:
The recent information ‘popping’ in the press certainly isn’t all that huge of a ‘revelation’ to US here on this forum. It’s really just a ‘confirmation’ of things we already knew/suspected.
But for the MSM and the general PUBLIC… this is a huge WTF moment.
I am SURE that once people let this new information ‘sink in’… there is going to be a “Slowly I turned” moment when people start wanting to know why even what MANY Public officials knew has taken so long to ‘come to the light of day’.
Coverups ( or anything that even LOOKS like one ) piss people off.
They just don’t like them… especially not from people on the PUBLIC payroll.
There is a whole new ‘chapter’ of ‘Why was this allowed to happen this way’ that is about to begin, here.
The Attorney General is an office in addition to a person. I doubt the AG for the state overall was there, so until someone confirms who represented the AG’s office, I wouldn’t put too much emphasis on that.
As far as attorney-client privilege between Palladini and Willis, I doubt Palladini ever represented Willis personally. Lots of employees are surprised to find out that the company attorney isn’t THEIR own attorney. I think that is what happened here.
Thanks, SR!
Reply to SR post on April 10, 2015 at 7:29 am
>> SR said…
>>
>> The Attorney General is an office in addition to a person.
>> I doubt the AG for the state overall was there, so until
>> someone confirms who represented the AG’s office,
>> I wouldn’t put too much emphasis on that.
Well… once again… it’s hard to tell whether this is just bad reporting, or poor use of the King’s English, or whether the statement in the PDC is, in fact, being very specific.
It’s actually an unusual set of circumstances here.
The Arizona State Attorney General’s Office ( as in, staff lawyers ) are the ones actually REPRESENTING ‘Arizona Forestry’ in the “Arizona Forestry vs. ADOSH” citation dispute(s).
So it only stands to reason that “Officials with the Arizona State Attorney General’s office” would have been there at that “meeting”.
But that’s not what the PDC article actually said.
It says (specifically) “the Arizona Attorney General”. ( As in ‘the person’ ).
If what the reporter REALLY meant to say was ‘Officials’ or ‘Attorneys’ simply *associated* with the AZ AG’s office… then the CLEAR way to have made sure that intent was communicated would have been more like this…
“That led to a Phoenix meeting, at which Willis was interviewed by officials with State Forestry, the Arizona Division of Occupational Safety and Health (ADOSH), and OFFICIALS ASSOCIATED WITH the Arizona Attorney General’s OFFICE.”
But that’s not how it was published.
As written… it could be *construed* to mean the actual AZ AG was actually there in that meeting.
It would not SURPRISE me at all if that was the case.
It could actually almost be EXPECTED that he would attend.
This is a BIG DEAL… and he is the HEAD ATTORNEY for a legal team that is, in fact, now charged with defending ‘Arizona Forestry’.
There are MILLIONS and MILLIONS of Arizona taxpayer dollars at stake here.
I could EASILY imagine him deciding to attend if, for no other reason, than to remove any ‘middle men’ on this and to make sure he was hearing for himself exactly what questions his staff lawyers would be asking and to make sure they were ‘getting it right’. He may have even have had some questions of his own.
>> SR also said…
>>
>> As far as attorney-client privilege between Palladini and Willis,
>> I doubt Palladini ever represented Willis personally. Lots of employees
>> are surprised to find out that the company attorney isn’t THEIR own
>> attorney. I think that is what happened here.
I would tend to agree.
Willis was still an EMPLOYEE of the City of Prescott when he approached Paladini with this. So this was simply a current City employee ( and former City Wildland Division Chief ) contacting the City Attorney about a legal matter that might have and impact on the City itself. It was not a private attorney/client relationship at that point. It was an ’employer/employee’ situation.
The article ALSO says that Willis contacted people connected with ‘Arizona Forestry’ at the SAME TIME he contacted Paladini.
If Willis was all that concerned about it all being kept secret… then he goofed.
If he wanted it ‘just between me and the guy I think represents me’ then he should have ONLY contacted Paladini and not anyone else.
But even then…. I believe Willis forgot that Jon Palladini is being paid to represent the entire City of Prescott and look out for the City’s best interests. Palladini’s actual CLIENT is the City itself… and NOT any/all of its individual employees.
SIDENOTE: That is exactly why Brendan decided to get a private attorney.
It was Paladini who was acting as Brendan’s ‘mediator’ to help arrange that first scheduled under-oath deposition back on November 26, 2014.
It was also Paladini who was going to ‘represent’ Brendan DURING the deposition just as he sat beside Willis during that first ‘dump’ of the information to the Arizona AG’s attorneys and ADOSH attorneys.
It looks like Brendan was either advised ( or realized himself ) at the last minute that going into that deposition with an attorney whose REAL job is to simply represent the entire City of Prescott was NOT in Brendan’s own “best interests”.
So he got his OWN attorney… complete with his own ( guaranteed under law ) attorney-client privilege firmly ‘in-place’.
There is nothing wrong with that. That was the SMART thing for him to do.
Correction for above…
I actually should have said…
SIDENOTE: That is PROBABLY why Brendan decided to get a private attorney.
The truth is that we have still not heard jack-shit from Brendan himself about ANY of this… including the why’s and wherefore’s of his actions going all the way back to the cancellation of that first deposition.
We really still do NOT know WHY Brendan decided to get his own CRIMINAL defense attorney instead of just letting Prescott City Attorney Jon Paladini ‘represent’ him for that first deposition.
It is EXTREMELY unlikely that the actual Arizona Attorney General (Tom Horne) was involved in this meeting.
Approaching the end of a scandal-ridden term in office, he didn’t personally participate in much of anything except his own damage control.
The PDC article was most likely trying to say “officials of the Arizona Attorney General’s office.
Reply to The Truth Will Always Remain Elusive (TTWARE) post
on April 10, 2015 at 8:58 am
>> TTWARE said…
>>
>> It is EXTREMELY unlikely that the actual Arizona Attorney General
>> (Tom Horne) was involved in this meeting.
>>
>> Approaching the end of a scandal-ridden term in office, he didn’t
>> personally participate in much of anything except his own
>> damage control.
I didn’t research the guy so I’ll take your word for it that he ‘pegs high’ on the asshole meter.
My ‘objective’ impression would be that if he was still being paid to be the Attorney General for Arizona… then it actually would be LIKELY he would want to be at this meeting. It was a BIG DEAL and he is in CHARGE of his own staff who are actually the ones charged with representing ‘Arizona Forestry’ in an issue that represents the possible loss of MILLIONS and MILLIONS of dollars to the taxpayers of Arizona.
>> SR also said…
>>
>> The PDC article was most likely trying to say “officials of the
>> Arizona Attorney General’s office.
Yes. It could be just simple inattention to the choice of words on the part of the reporter.
I would think ( since the poor choice of words DOES imply that he was there ) this would be a candidate for an ‘update’ or a published ‘correction’ for the article along the lines of…
ERRATA: The article above implies that the Arizona Attorney General himself attended the interview with Willis and Paldini. That was NOT the case. The meeting was only attended by staff lawyers from the Arizona Attorney General’s office since the Arizona Attorney General’s office is officially representing ‘Arizona Forestry’ in the “Arizona Forestry vs. ADOSH” legal proceedings.
Reply to The Truth Will Always Remain Elusive (TTWARE) post
on April 10, 2015 at 8:58 am
>> TTWARE said…
>>
>> It is EXTREMELY unlikely that the actual Arizona Attorney
>> General (Tom Horne) was involved in this meeting.
Scratch my other comments above.
John Dougherty’s new article published TODAY confirms that what the PDC article author should have said was that it was ‘just “Officials from the Arizona Attorney General’s Office” ( as in… staff lawyers ) that attended that face-to-face with Willis and Paladini… and NOT the actual Arizona Attorney General….
http://www.investigativemedia.com/mcdonough-will-testify-if-legally-required/
From the article…
————————————————————-
Willis says he gave McDonough “the weekend to come forth with this.”
The following Monday, Willis says he contacted Prescott City Attorney Jon Paladini and state Forester Scott Hunt. Willis and Paladini met with attorneys for the Forestry Division, ADOSH and the Attorney General’s office about two weeks later, he says. Willis says McDonough did not attend his meetings with Paladini or the state’s attorneys.
————————————————————-
I would still say, however, that it would be highly unusual for there to have been this kind of ‘interview’ taking place, with so many attorneys present, without there being some kind of TRANSCRIPT of the proceedings and what Willis was testifying to during this face-to-face meeting.
I made a comment below that went to moderation as I must have badly typed the email address:
To summarize. First, this week is a media watershed. The narrative has changed forever. The Republic editorial page called for McDonough to be deposed ASAP. Next, the media will want to hear from Blue Ridge. Second, unless Jon Palladini is an evil liar, the bit about Marsh saying “I’m sorry” lends veracity to his statement. You do not make that up. The difference between Palladini and Willis seems to be was it an “order” order. Palladini now says essentially ordered – i.e. a heckuva lot of pressure.
Just by reading the ( predictable ) public ‘comments’ that are appearing at the bottoms of these various articles that are now ‘popping’… it’s pretty obvious that even if Brendan is actually DEPOSED now… SOME people are NOT going to believe a single word coming out of his mouth.
Or… they MIGHT believe his ‘situational’ testimony ( Marsh was ahead of them and told/ordered Steed to bring them all down )… but NOT some of the actual ‘conversations’ he says he heard.
Because of the circumstances themselves, with Brendan obviously having his own ‘agenda’ from day one and CHOOSING to ‘withhold’ information to satisfy that ‘early’ agenda… some are already saying this time could be no different and we are still ONLY hearing what Brendan McDonough himself wants the world to think happened ( and was said ) out there.
All of this was inevitable the moment Brendan decided to NOT tell everything he knew ‘up front’.
Even if Brendan puts his hand on a stack of books representing the tenets of every organized religion on the planet… some are still going to say he is a LIAR and can’t be ‘believed’ or ‘trusted’.
So there will end up being ( as there always have been ) different ‘camps’ emerging.
One camp will believe him and believe we now have more ‘facts’.
Other camps will think he’s a pathological LIAR and MANIPULATOR and that nothing
he says can be trusted as ‘the truth’.
As for the “I’m sorry” part… that is going to be a BIG point of consternation.
Not only does it represent the ‘flash point’ for some saying “Look… there’s the admission of fault right there!”… it is also the ‘flash point’ for people who doubt Brendan to say “Look… there he is (again) just trying to shape the narrative the way he wants us to see it.”
What a mess.
Can Blue Ridge corroborate his testimony? Might be crucial.
Did you catch the following little ‘tidbit’ of information which is now ONLY appearing in the PDC article ( and not in the AZCENTRAL one )?
It seems to put an exact TIME on when Brendan started hearing the ‘discussions’.
From the PDC article…
———————————————————————-
The gist of the story, Paladini said, was that as the fire raged, McDonough and several Hotshots from the Blue Ridge crew had moved four Granite Mountain Hotshot vehicles out of the line of the fire.
When McDonough started one of the vehicles, the crew radio came on, and he reportedly overheard an ongoing discussion between Eric Marsh, the superintendent and a founder of the Hotshots, and his captain, Jesse Steed.
———————————————————————
This is actually now just a CONFIRMATION of what has ALWAYS been published in the SAIR and ADOSH reports… that Brendan “Heard them discussing their options”.
Well… as far as Blue Ridge goes… that means that there was this time period BEFORE any of them showed up out in the Sesame Area to help move any vehicles where Brendan would have been the ONLY one hearing THOSE conversations.
Brendan ‘started up the GM vehicles’ as soon as Frisby dropped him off by them ( The GM Supt and Chase trucks. Crew Carriers were farther south in the Sesame area ).
Frisby then took off in the UTV to go ‘get’ the one other driver it would take to move the GM Chase Truck while Brendan drove Marsh’s GM Supt. truck out.
Brendan had to wait right here ( and that’s when he took some of those iPhone photos of that ‘smoke whirl’ near him ) because Brendan had no frickin’ idea how to even get out of that area…. much less over to the Youth Camp.
So if this is confirmation now that the moment Brendan jumped into the GM Supt truck and fired it up and the ‘turned up the radio’ ( as he also testified to doing way back when ) then for at least about 5 minutes he was the only one listening to any conversation on the GM intra-crew in THAT timeframe.
But here is what is still ‘interesting’.
That may be when Brendan first started hearing them “discussing their options”… but there really is NO FRICKIN’ WAY that Marsh could have even been very far south on the two-track ( much less down near the BSR ) at the time when Frisby dropped him off at the GM Supt. Truck.
If there was an actual ARGUMENT… then it VERY LIKELY came sometime AFTER that when the other 3 Blue Ridge Hotshots WOULD have been onboard the other 3 GM vehicles.
More to come… I’m sure.
Note —-In most cases the crew truck radios are probably all on Priority Crew net. So they can communicate back and forth during transient.
so When all the trucks were started they immediately went to Crew net.
Also McDonough time frame may be a little of as to what was said and when. After he started the trucks. Also the BR crew would have herd
the other discussions coming off the ridge and the statements before deployment. They could still as well herd the argument not knowing what they were redacted on.
Copy ( all ) that.
It’s actually hard to say whether what appears to be ‘new’ little of tidbits of information coming out in the PDC article really are ‘new’ quotes from Palladini himself… or even just ’embellishments’ on the part of YAR ( Yet Another Reporter ).
It SOUNDED ( in the PDC article ) like adding this little new tidbit about Brendan first starting to HEAR this crucial stuff the moment he cranked the key on the GM Supt truck was this new YAR reporting more detail from Palladini…
…but it could have just been an ’embellishment’.
That STORY that Brendan “heard them discussing their options” just moments after Frisby dropped him off and then continued south to pick up some drivers has actually been ‘out there’ for quite some time.
The SAIR itself said that is when Brendan first heard them “discussing their options” Right after getting dropped off at the GM Supt and Chase trucks by Frisby.
So maybe the reporter was ‘remembering’ that already-published testimony and was taking the liberty of ADDING it to this new information from Paladini.
Either way… we are still NOT getting the FULL picture (yet) of exactly WHAT Brendan heard… and WHEN.
“Discussing your options” is not “Having an argument”… nor does it describe someone “ordering” someone to do anything.
THAT all has to be LATER than whatever Brendan heard as soon as he cranked the GM Supt Truck up.
People still wonder if we are ever really going to hear the WHY component here.
As in… WHY was it so frickin’ important to Eric Marsh that those men take that risk and get to the BSR that Marsh would even WANT to argue with the wishes of his own trusted Captain about it.
I believe there’s still a chance the answer to that MIGHT be in this actual “discussing their options” conversation that both the SAIR and ADOSH reports have ALWAYS said Brendan fully heard.
I have been going thru the daily courier and picked up additional things.
\
Paladini said the Reporter who contacted him—-already knew mch of the information and was asking for conformation. They already had 70 or 80 percent of the information. HE SAID
Paladini also said—–The only document I did of the conversation (with Willis) was a memo to the City Council,. Which cannot be released to the public due to Attorney–Client Privilege.
_————-The City is his Client any thing discussed between them is Private———-
A few other little odds and ends but those stood out.
If in fact Marsh said Yeah I know I’m sorry———-Then he was admitting to the crew it was his fault and responsibility they were where they were and if we have or when we get that as being said then his admission and apology goes to all of us out here, The Families, Fire Fighters and the public That I hope is worth a lot to us all. It won’t ease the pain but I hope it is a comfort to the sole.
Brendan it is your turn to give your Brothers and there families PEACE———
Reply to Bob Powers post on April 9, 2015 at 2:38 pm
>> Bob Powers said…
>> Paladini said the Reporter who contacted him— already knew much of the
>> information and was asking for conformation. They already had 70 or 80
>> percent of the information. HE SAID
I wonder, though, if the reporters really didn’t know any more that what was stated by the Arizona Forestry lawyers to Judge Mosesso in those documents when they were telling the Judge EXACTLY what McDonough was EXPECTED to testify to.
It really was a pretty ‘complete picture’… just lacking critical details.
So maybe Paladini just *thought* they knew ‘almost all of it’ without putting 2 and 2 together and realizing that ‘almost all of it’ was, in fact, already published in those ALJ Hearing documents.
Only the reporters themselves could now say how much of ‘what they knew and/or suspected and/or were trying to CONFIRM with Paladini came solely from the published ALJ documents… or whether the reporters (also) had ‘other sources’.
>> Bob Powers also said…
>>
>> Paladini also said—–The only document I did of the conversation (with Willis)
>> was a memo to the City Council,. Which cannot be released to the public
>> due to Attorney–Client Privilege.
>> ————-The City is his Client any thing discussed between them is Private———-
No. It is NOT.
That might be the way Paladini ( the lawyer ) is looking at it… but Paladini ( the civil servant and employee of a municipality ) needs to check his paystub and remember who it is ( and WHAT it is ) he actually WORKS for.
Whether or not ‘City Attorneys’ or other ‘Government employed Lawyers’ can invoke ‘attorney-client privilege’ is a long-debated topic and there are all kinds of ‘relevant’ case histories out there.
The argument essentially comes down to whether being an attorney for a Governmental Agency is PRIMARILY like being a ‘private lawyer’ with ‘private clients’ or not… or whether there is a more over-riding ( and fundamental ) responsibility for ‘transparency’ than one would expected between private attorneys and their private clients.
In other words… are ‘government attorneys’ government FIRST… and attorneys SECOND…
or is it the other way around.
Is the ‘attorney-client’ privilege they might claim based more on FUNCTION ( in a job capacity ) or it is based more on actual PRIVILEGE.
We now know there is a PUBLIC DOCUMENT sitting around somewhere.
It just so happens to have been sent by at ‘Government Attorney’ ( on the PUBLIC payroll ) to other ‘Government Officials’ ( also on the PUBLIC payroll ).
The ‘Freedom of Information Act’ (FOIA) has no specific ‘exception’ for ‘attorney-client’ privilege privacy claims.
I don’t think there will be any GREAT revelations ( as far as detail goes ) in seeing that actual ‘memo’ that Paladini says he sent to the City Council. It’s purpose was probably just to advise the City Council about the City’s ‘liabilities’ if this information ‘came out’ ( since Eric Marsh really WAS an employee of the City of Prescott ).
It WOULD be interesting to know, however, WHAT Paldini was ‘advising’ the Prescott City Council about all this.
Did he now think the City *might* be open to ‘other liabilities’ if this information turns out to be TRUE… or did he think it didn’t much matter and they could still invoke the same ‘worker’s compensation protections and exceptions’ that got them dropped from the original ( and ongoing ) ‘wrongful death’ suits?
>> Bob Powers also said…
>>
>> If in fact Marsh said Yeah I know I’m sorry———-Then he was admitting
>> to the crew it was his fault and responsibility they were where they were
Yes. There really wouldn’t be any other way to interpret that if it is true.
That being said… there is still a LOT that we do NOT KNOW regarding the ‘context’.
It really all depends WHEN Steed’s (supposed) “We aren’t going to make it ( to the ranch )” statement and then Marsh’s (supposed) “Yeah. I know. I’m sorry” exchange actually took place.
Was there actually any sense of URGENCY during this exchange?
What I mean is… did the parties involved actually fully realize yet that this was about to lead to an actual DEPLOYMENT… or did they still think it was a ‘survivable screwup’?
If Steed hadn’t seen any fire BEHIND them yet… did his “We’re not going to make it ( to the Ranch )” mean that he still had plans to just “turn around and go back”?
Marsh’s “I’m sorry” could mean an awful lot of different things, depending on exactly WHEN it was said and how much ‘context’ is implied by it.
Was it…
“I’m sorry. Even I can see you can’t make it here now. I hope you have time to retreat.”
OR
“I’m sorry. I guess you’re going to have to deploy out there. I hope you survive.”
OR
“I’m sorry. This looks fatal.”
Subtle differences, maybe… but each one tells a different ‘story’ about what happened NEXT… and WHY Marsh might have then decided to ‘join them’.
If there was actually HOPE that a deployment would be survivable… then Marsh really might have thought he could be of ‘help’ out there.
If there was actually NO HOPE of survival ( and both Marsh and Steed pretty much knew it )… then Marsh’s decision to ‘join them’ represents more of “deciding to fall on his sword” moment than any attempt to ‘help them’.
So the TIMING and the CONTEXT is still very important to know, here, on some of these newly reports ‘statements’ coming out of that box canyon.
WTKTT
My previous experience working for a city and sitting in on meetings also running for City council . I have learned when a city hired lawyer requests a closed meeting to discuss legal information that discussion is confidential and any legal briefs to the Council as well. A memo is a legal brief to the council in this case.
Any in chambers discussion on legal matters is not released to the public went thru a 8 months process at a little town called Filer where I worked concerning a Police officer. The city council had severial closed door sessions with the City Lawyer no Minuets were ever released. The Lawyer was also the City Attorney for Twin Falls and had been for 15 years so he knew his law.
There are some things the City Council can go into private session for.
Yes… but anytime they do… the SUBJECT of that ‘Executive Session’ MUST be clearly described in the PUBLIC minutes of the meeting when that ‘Executive Session’ was called.
This actually has nothing to do with the ‘communication’ that Paladini says he had with the “Prescott City Council”.
Paladini is quoted in the latest article as saying he sent a MEMO.
From the latest PDC article…
—————————————————————-
“The only document I did of the conversation (with Willis) was a MEMO to the City Council,” Paladini said. He maintained that the MEMO could not be released to the public because of the protection of “attorney-client privilege.”
—————————————————————-
What Paladini himself doesn’t seem to realize is that by doing these interviews with the media… and thereby actually revealing the SUBJECT and the CONTENT of what was in his MEMO… it will now be VERY hard for either Paladini or the Prescott City Council to claim ‘attorney-client’ privilege for that original MEMO from Paladini when/if it is requested via “Arizona Open Records” laws.
Here’s something from a site that talks about ‘attorney-client’ privilege in general… and doesn’t even get into the fact that CITY attorneys ( PUBLIC employees ) can’t even claim the same depth of ‘attorney-client’ privilege that private attorneys can…
————————————————————
Communications MUST be kept CONFIDENTIAL for the attorney-client privilege to apply. If the SUBSTANCE of attorney-client communications is DISCLOSED to persons outside the organization – or even to persons within the organization who are not directly involved in the matter – the attorney-client privilege may be extinguished.
————————————————————
The MEDIA counts as ‘persons outside the organization’ with regards to this memo that he sent to the Prescott City Council.
Now that Paladini has talked to the MEDIA about ‘the information’… it’s gonna be hard for him to say that memo is still ‘protected’.
All that being said…
I’ll repeat what I said above.
I don’t think there are any ‘revelations’ to be had in the content of that memo… other than ( perhaps ) finding out exactly whether Paladini now thought that if this NEW information turned out to be TRUE… what that might do to Prescott’s LIABILITY situation.
I’d still like to see that memo, though…. and what he told them about that.
Good Points things are starting to drop like flies——–
Whether that MEMO that Paladini admits he sent to the Prescott City Council ever sees the light of day…
…the vary fact that a City Attorney would be choosing to send a MEMO to the City Council at all regarding something some FORMER City Employee ( Brendan ) was now ‘saying’ is almost automatic proof that the City Attorney DID sense some new LIABILITY involved if the information was correct.
If the City Attorney was now sensing ‘possible new liabilities’ for the City and he did NOT inform the City Council about it right away… then he could be accused later of ‘negligence’ with regards to his own responsibilities to the City.
Wrap that all up… and I think it’s pretty safe to say that no matter what Willis says now… City Attorney Jon Paladini WAS convinced ( following their first meeting/discussion ) that a former employee of the City of Prescott had very likely ORDERED the other Prescott City Employees to take actions that resulted in their deaths… and he damn well better give the City Council a ‘heads-up’ on that.
WTKTT said,
WantsToKnowTheTruth says
April 6, 2015 at 9:15 pm
I think I’m about to ask a crazy question.
Actually… I’m sure of it.
I’m about to ask a crazy question.
WHERE did the REQUIREMENT come from that these guys/gals have to be dressed ( and functioning as ) PACK MULES pretty much EVERY MOMENT while they are actually ‘working’ and ‘cutting line’?
When you are ACTUALLY ‘cutting line’… and there is no immediate danger… why can’t you take your frickin’ pack OFF?
Of course it should be RIGHT THERE near you ( or no more than a few paces away )… but where did the REQUIREMENT come from that you have to WEAR the frickin’ thing EVERY MOMENT?
If something happens SO quickly that you can’t even take a few steps and pull your precious ‘fire shelter’ out of the bottom of your pack… then you probably don’t have the minimum 25 seconds to even use the damn thing, anyway, right?
Why is it absolutely VERBOTEN to take the pack OFF, at ANY time while you are actually just ‘swinging an axe’ or ‘scraping the ground’?
I say,
Well…as luck would have it, I can actually answer that question for you, complete with photographic evidence of a big screw up on my part. I just uploaded the photos to a hobby web site I am building. I think these are the most interesting photos ever taken on a wildfire I was on, because they actually capture a burn over with a few of my guys (Happy Jack Hotshots) and me.
We were the only crew on typical Tonto National Forest desert fire, we were trying to catch it, the crew was fragmented into miscellaneous modules, I usually did not cut fire line with the crew, but I was that day since I could not direct the crew as a unit because we were so broken down into such small units because of the extreme chaos.
So I gathered a few guys and started cutting line on the fire that was blowing out on multiple fronts. So I guess this was a fire we were the initial attack on that I forgot about when I wrote down below I only remembered one fire. So yes, Elizabeth, hotshots DO initial attack, it’s just that it is more common for engines, helitack and smokejumpers to do so. I know there a quite a few others I have also forgotten about.
1. Shows the advance front of a typical Tonto National Forest desert fire.
2. Shows the same fire front a short time later, much closer.
3. This is the key photo, it shows me at the front of a four man unit. The photo was taken just as the fire really blew up and I am caught spinning on my heals to run. The man behind me was the Squad Boss for Squad II, and he was caught recoiling from the intense heat a split second after me, but he has not yet turned to run, and the two crewmen behind him are still heads down cutting line unaware that we are getting ready to di di mau most ricky tick.
We ran into an area that did not have as much fuel while were actually burned over. I had taken my web gear with 4 quart canteens, my radios and my fire shelter in addition to my backpack which contained spare batteries, headlamp, poncho, rations, and another gallon of water, etc. off a few minutes before I started cutting line to make some adjustments when the fire blew out. I started cutting line with the fragmented squad without putting my gear back on, that is how fast the fire blew out. You can see fire shelters and gear on the others in the photo.
4. The last photo is the saddest one of all, it shows me wandering around aimlessly looking for my gear in the black after the fire front passed. Of course everything looked different with the vegetation burned off and I couldn’t find where I had put my gear down for some time. It was very embarrassing.
Here is the link to where I just posted the photos for your information and amusement so you can understand why it is “Why is it absolutely VERBOTEN to take the pack OFF, at ANY time while you are actually just ‘swinging an axe’ or ‘scraping the ground’?” and have a chuckle at my expense, since I can laugh about it now.
http://www.ourfiregods.com/reserved1.html
Unlike wildland firefighters of today, we did not consider the fire shelter a viable option since they were new to us and there had never been any deployments at that time. Even after there were successful deployments, I never considered the fire shelter to be a viable option. Running…yes, deploying a fire shelter…no.
Which is why I still believe my much earlier comments that the Granite Mountain Hotshots should have run, since they were deploying their fire shelters in an area that was not survivable due to the long flame lengths and extreme temperature.
No matter how bad my chances were to survive by running, I would rather die on me feet than lay down in the dirt to be burned alive. I am getting a little off topic here, but I believe the pendulum has swung the other way too far today with wildland firefighters believing in their fire shelters way too much and that is a direct result of the agencies trying to convince firefighters over the past few decades that fire shelters will save them.
The area the GMHS deployed in was obviously way to small to survive in per “How Big Is Big Enough.”
Correction, after looking closer at the last photo, I can see the Coconino National Forest radio around my waist and what would have been the fire net (Tonto National Forest) in my right hand.
The Picture show was like steeping back in time a lot of old memories of the life and times of a HS crew———Thanks Gary
right on
And yes, It really bothers me that one of the lessons learned from the Yarnell Hill Fire seems to be, “Let’s see if we can build a bigger, heavier, bulkier fire shelter and put even more emphasis on training firefighters fire shelters can save them, thereby actually ENCOURGING them take more risks and ignore more of the rules”, which is why I believe that although Mr. Turbyfill’s video is impressive, I strongly believe his passion is misplace and may have unintended consequence for wildland firefighters in the future.
I believe the families of the Granite Mountain Hotshots should be deferred to in every way possible regarding every emotional ( a memorial etc.) aspect of this tragedy, but they should be politely and respectfully ignored when it comes to lessons learned or how the wildland firefighting community should move forward. They lack the experience to make those kinds of recommendations. And I am truly sorry if that comment offends anyone, but I am not sorry for making the comment..
The Granite Mountain Hotshots didn’t die because their fire shelters were inadequate, they died because somebody in a leadership position on the GMHS taught them that, “The 10 Standard Firefighters Orders were hillbilly…old and that they were a lot smarter than that nowadays.”
Gary… thank you for ALL your posting above on this.
You also captured the ‘context’ in which I actually asked that ‘crazy question’.
It was way down below in a thread that was talking about the recent announcement ( right in the middle of these supposed ‘negotiations’ with GM family members ) from the U.S. Forestry Service that they ARE, in fact, going AHEAD with a ‘new shelter design’ as a direct result of the Yarnell incident.
I, myself, don’t have much of an opinion about whether this is a GOOD idea, or a BAD idea.
The question I asked was along the lines of “If it turns out that the NEW design is FAR SUPERIOR to the old one and DOES represent significantly IMPROVED chances of surviving a horrible situation… but there is most definitely a new WEIGHT component involved… will the advantages be enough to justify changing the existing RULE that you have to wear that entire friggin’ pack assembly ( shelter included ) every friggin’ moment… even when you are NOT in situations where it’s possible to get ‘caught off guard’.”
It sounds like you answered that.
The ‘hue and cry’ from the ‘experienced’ WFF folks is going to be NO.
Probably even HELL NO.
The big problem that Gary did not say is the amount of energy burned by packing 40 pounds up to a fire and all day in the 100 degree temps it will totally wear you out burn you out dehydrate you there fore you carry more water and that adds to the weight. When you talk about fatigue that is a very real source no matter how good of shape you are in.
May be Rocksteady can give all of us More info on Canada and how not having Fir Shelters is working with regard to Burn Fatalities?
WTKTT – I do agree with you on one very important point, why is it necessary to load wildland firefighters up like pack mules?
I think the 45 pound pack estimation is an inflated figure that I first heard come out of Chief Fraijo’s mouth in a news conference announcing the fatalities of the GMHS. I assumed that was a figure he picked up from Willis and that dumb ass retired USFS public information officer the Arizona State Game and Fish hired and who was loaned to Arizona State Forestry to Speak God’s Words over the fallen at the deployment site. And none of those 3 men have ever been on the line with a hand crew, except for Willis, who went out once with the GMHS once as a tag-a-long.
Water…is very heavy (about 8 pounds per gallon) and is the heaviest thing a wildland firefighter has to carry, especially on desert fires where it is necessary to carry 2 gallons for a day shift and 1.5 gallons for a night shift because re-supply is always hit and miss. But normally 1 gallon is sufficient for most fires.
And then here is a list of the kinds of things most experienced wildland firefighters carry in their day packs to give you an idea of the weight that is involved. And a great deal our weight used to be the headlamps that contained 4 D batteries, and we carried 4 D replacement batteries. In addition, I usually had to carry 2 heavy handheld radios, crew net and fire net with replacement batteries that were heavy. Today’s firefighters are carrying 1 lighter digital radio and LED headlamps with very small lightweight batteries and they should not have to carry replacement batteries.
Here is the list a well equipped firefighters should carry to survive a “Coyote” camp situation with limited resupply in relative comfort;.
Fire shelter, 4 fusees, 1 gallon of water, headlamp, poncho (for rain or sun protection & to wrap up in with a space blanket) space blanket, nylon cord (to make a hootch) head lamp, ration, reserve food (dried fruit, nuts, granola bars, jerky), spare pair of gloves, extra bandanas, compass and signal mirror.
That should be about 25 pounds of weight…max. I really don’t know where the 45 pound weight estimate is coming from. I couldn’t cut line for up to 16 hours with 45 pounds on my back and banging me in the back of my head.
And that is what the well dressed firefighter is carrying and is what I considered to be a minimum, although some guys tougher than me just went out with just their rat tucked in their shirt and 2 government quart canteens on their fire shelter belt. We also liked to carry miniature bottles of Tabasco sauce to make the old school gag-a-maggot C rations edible.
And here is some additional info why I see new heavier fire shelter as a real problem for future firefighters. Now…this is just one example of a common phenomenon that is similar to why some people (especially at first) quit wearing seat belts when air bags came out.
A few years ago, I attended a seminar regarding risk taking by those in law enforcement but it apples just as well to firefighters, the presenter used this example and he had all of the stats to back it up, which I don’t have, but you will still get the picture.
When the California Highway Patrol switched from Harley Davidson motorcycles to BMW motorcycles for their motor officers, their officer involved accident rate was supposed to drop by X because the new motorcycles handled so much better, where lighter and most importantly had a vastly improved braking system.
But their accident rate stayed about the same or actually went up. Why? Because the motor officers felt so cocky about their new rides, they went faster and took more chances.
That is what I’m afraid could happen with a bigger, heavier, bulkier fire shelter with increased emphasis on training and using them. Wildland firefighters will probably take additional risks they would not have otherwise taken with their old fire shelters because they believe the new magic cocoons will save them if they screw up, it’s just human nature, especially for many of those who are involved in wildland firefighters who are first and foremost…adrenaline junkies.
That is what I mean by “unintended consequences”, I think there should be a renewed emphasis put on following the rules or at least not disregarding them with as much contempt as the Granite Mountain Hotshots did according to Brendan McDonough.
Gary… it is hard to NOT agree with all your points about ‘improvements’ in PPE actually resulting in people just taking even MORE chances… ESPECIALLY if published test results on any new shelter design really are IMPRESSIVE and would tend to make FFs think the damn things will protect them in just about ANY situation.
I, myself, do NOT have the expertise ( or the influence ) to make any real decision about that.
I have two distinct ‘OF COURSE’ alarms in my head about that.
OF COURSE people should follow the hard-wrought rules of their profession and NEVER allow themselves to be put in a situation where they are depending on their PPE to save their lives.
But also…
OF COURSE if that ever ‘accidentally’ happens… I sure as hell would WANT to have the BEST PPE available that would let me come home to my family and then think about how badly I fucked up… ( for the rest of my natural life ).
I totally agree with your last paragraph.
Regardless of any technology improvements… there should have been a COMPLETE FULL STOP and REALITY CHECK in the ‘industry’ to make SURE there aren’t more units out there in the field who think that the RULES of their profession are just weak ‘guidelines’ they can choose to follow ( or not ) as it suits their own personal ambitions.
And it’s still not too late for that to happen.
If a football player just spikes a ball in and end-zone… he/she can be fined and/or ‘taken out of service’ for a number of games.
If ANY field unit is caught treating the WFF rules as just ‘guidelines’… the penalty should be ‘removal from the game’.
There should be CONSEQUENCES for ‘ignoring the rules’… even when it turns into a ‘bad decision with a good outcome’ and nobody died ( yet ).
Tighten up the ship. Do it NOW.
It could prevent this from happening again.
Yes, the issue is certainly complicated. I guess I just would like people to understand that a heavier and bulkier fire shelter is not going to be a magic bullet that will save firefighters the next time they get is a similar situation and there may be unintended consequences,.
With all this deep subterfuge the more and more I feel that there were surveillance cameras at the Boulder Springs Ranch pointing in the direction of the deployment sight. Thus they must have picked up the progression of the fire and ultimately Marsh walking back up to meet his men. This would be crucial evidence and with everything else that has been buried, there is no wonder why the Helm’s kept quiet as well. How chilling are these new revelations concerning the last conversations between Steed and Marsh? If Marsh really were down at the BSR or in the general vicinity, how could he not see the fire approaching as stated a billion times before on this site? These are deep, deep waters and we are only witnessing just a fraction of this whole ordeal.
Reply to John post on April 9, 2015 at 10:29 am
>> John said…
>>
>> With all this deep subterfuge the more and more I feel that there were
>> surveillance cameras at the Boulder Springs Ranch pointing in the
>> direction of the deployment sight. Thus they must have picked up the
>> progression of the fire and ultimately Marsh walking back up to meet
>> his men. This would be crucial evidence
Speaking only for myself… I have researched this as best as I possibly can using the existing body of published photographs taken in/around the Boulder Springs Ranch,
and I can find NO photographic evidence of any actual security cameras mounted anywhere on the WEST side of the BSR compound.
There are still some mysterious little ‘black boxes’ that are mounted right under the corners of the roof of the residence, back by the GARAGE, but there is no PUBLIC photo that I know of with good enough resolution to determine WHAT those ‘little black boxes’ really are.
If they WERE cameras… then it WOULD appear they were facing WEST and covering the driveway to the garage ( foreground ) and probably a view out into the box canyon ( background ).
But I repeat… I ( myself ) have been unable to verify WHAT those ‘little black boxes’ really are.
In addition… there is also NOTHING that actually resembles the same camera-with-floodlights that Lee Helm was using on the front gate anywhere on the WEST side of the compound.
There are actual CLOSEUP photos of that front-gate security camera, and it’s pretty LARGE. I definitely don’t see anything like it anywhere else on the compound.
Here is a post from back in Chapter Eleven detailing where those ‘closeup’ photos are in the public evidence record…
** CHAPTER XI ( ELEVEN )
On January 8, 2015 at 9:49 pm, WTKTT said…
** SAIT INVESTIGATOR WACHTER SITE VISIT PHOTOS CONTAIN
** ALL OF THE FOLLOWING…
**
** ACTUAL CLOSEUPS OF BSR FRONT GATE SECURITY CAMERA
** ACTUAL PHOTOS SHOWING SAIT INVESTIGATORS COPYING CAMERA DATA
** ACTUAL PHOTOS OF THE PUMPKIN THAT WAS SET UP AT BSR
In THIS folder in InvestigativeMEDIA’s SAIT online Dropbox…
SAIT-FOIA\Photos and Video\Wachter Site Visit Photos\July 7 visit
Actual CLOSEUPS of the Helm’s front gate security camera…
IMG_1012
IMG_1013 ( Best closeup view of Helm’s front gate security camera )
IMG_1014
What SAIT investigator Wachter actually seemed to be doing here was taking closeups of parts of the Boulder Springs Ranch that were showing how the EMBERS and ASH got all over everything. He was particularly fascinated with this as he was walking around the compound photographing windows, sides of buildings… and the actual front gate SECURITY camera itself ( covered with ASH ).
IMG_1015 through IMG_1019 also show the camera mounted on the corner of the building and pointed at the main gate.
If you zoom in on the camera lens… it says ‘spec technologies’ in an oval around the camera lens.
* SPECO TECHNOLGIES
This is the ‘product info’ page for the exact camera used at the Helm’s Ranch…
http://www.specotech.com/index.php/products/video/cameras/analog/item/106-ht7048irvf
Product information…
————————————————————————-
Analog Camera: HT7048IRVF
Day/Night Weather Resistant Bullet Cameras
with Digital Noise Reduction, 2.8-12mm Lens, Dark Grey Housing
Oval shape – Two spotlights attached.
————————————————————————-
>> John also said…
>>
>> and with everything else that has been buried, there is no wonder why
>> the Helm’s kept quiet as well.
There are no actual ‘transcripts’ or ‘recordings’ of any of the ‘interviews’ that both the SAIT and ADOSH investigation teams had with Lee and D.J. Helm.
The best we get are just some references to them ( and what they were doing around the time of the burnover ) in the SAIR document itself… and then some short notes in the ADOSH file from their on-site interview with them.
There is only one short note in the ADOSH notes about them saying they never saw ANY firefighter at or near the compound that afternoon… even while they were out there just before the fire reached the area and putting all their animals in the barn(s).
There is NO evidence ( or notes ) about any investigator ever even thinking to ASK them if they had Security Cameras on the WEST side of the compound in addition to the one fixed on the EAST ( main ) gate.
>> John also said…
>>
>> How chilling are these new revelations concerning the last conversations
>> between Steed and Marsh? If Marsh really were down at the BSR or in
>> the general vicinity, how could he not see the fire approaching as stated
>> a billion times before on this site? These are deep, deep waters and
>> we are only witnessing just a fraction of this whole ordeal.
Yes. All along… as the “pull” theory had been being discussed here on this forum ( that Marsh was out AHEAD of the others and not BEHIND them )… it has been a given that the moment that theory could be proved… the most IMPORTANT question would then be HOW could Eric Marsh have actually been out AHEAD of the men and not have seen the impending danger with enough time to have ( perhaps ) averted the tragedy.
TIME was critical. Even few minutes either way MIGHT have made the difference between life of death that afternoon.
The EXACT details about how Marsh could have been in a position to be their “Forward Lookout”… but everyone ended up dying anyway… will then be the ongoing ‘mystery’ until a good explanation is found.
Not much new in today’s Courier article that adds to what the Republic published last weekend. Paladini does relate what the reported response was after Steed radioed to Marsh the “we’re not going to make it” transmission.
Also, it doesn’t sound like Brendan’s lawyer is in a big hurry to let the facts see the light of day.
http://dcourier.com/main.asp?SectionID=1&SubSectionID=1&ArticleID=143964
As I read the Article I noted some new information.
When Steed called Marsh and said were not going to make it—-
—–Marsh said Yeah I know I’m sorry—-
More on Willis and Paladini ——-
They both went to the State Fire Attorneys and ADOSH Attorneys with the story and Willis retold it there Paladini was Willis Attorney at that discussion on what McDonough had told Willis.
It was also discussed with the city council.
With all this repeat it seems that Paladini would have the story down pat by now which means what was released is probable what was said to Willis By McDonough.
Very interesting information———–..
Willis testimony is admissible in court. It is not second hand.
What ever McDonough told Willis is direct testimony the same as telling an investigator. Thus Willis could well be called to testify now or latter at the scheduled hearing
Paladini was told by Willis which is hear say in a court of law.
Willis can testify on what he was told—- but Paladini can not testify on what Willis told him. he also could have heard the same from McDonough—. Being his attorney at the time he is exempt from being called as a witness to any thing McDonough said to him.
Out side a court of Law as the City Attorney he can now speak for the City.
My guess he dose not want himself or the City pulled into the secret web of not disclosing the information. He is I believe Protecting the City as there Lawyer.
Once the information was given to the State and ADOSH. The City and Paladini were free to do what ever.
There is another Story here with Willis and maybe why he quickly retired.
He also may have a Lawyer for all the backlash that will come his way.
As I said there is more to come from this chess game being played by Paladini, Willis and McDonough.
My same thoughts exactly, regarding your comments on the city attorney.
He does not operate in a vacuum. Any statements he made were with the knowledge and approval of his superiors.
The city is not being accused of any wrongdoing in any of the current lawsuits, and with the council, city manager (probably), city attorney, and whoever else in the fire department that knew about this information since last October, there was certainly a nearing point in time when the City could be accused of sitting on and covering this up.
This info release has removed the city from THAT huge potential mess.
And now, finally this:
4/9/2015 6:01:00 AM
Chronology of recent filings in State Forestry appeal of hefty fines
Joanna Dodder Nellans
The Daily Courier
“Here is a condensed chronology of some of the case filings in State Forestry’s appeal of fines related to the deaths of the 19 Granite Mountain Hotshots in the Yarnell Hill wildfire, along with background information from previous Daily Courier articles.”
http://dcourier.com/main.asp?SectionID=1&subsectionID=1086&articleID=143963
There are an unusual number of fragmented threads and conversations going on just below… but given everything that has been ‘popping’ lately in the media… that is to be expected.
I’m on airplanes all day again today so apologies for not placing some of the following short responses to things people were asking me to comment on down exactly where they should be.
I will try to do that when I get back near my desktop but for now I just wanted to let some now that I DID see the comments below and I will respond better when I can.
Bob Powers, down below, regarding information from his sources that is now ( and always has been? ) ADOSH trying to block any under-oath deposition of McDonough.
ME: No reason not to trust your sources. They could be right. I was only referring below to statements ADOSH lawyers have, in fact made, in various ALJ Hearing Files. Some of those statements have always SEEMED to indicate that ADOSH really doesn’t give a flying crap WHAT Brendan McDonough is trying to now ‘get off his chest’ and they don’t think it could possibly affect or mitigate any of the already issued citations.
Below… John Dougherty posted that known part of Brendan’s ADOSH interview where he SEEMS to be suggesting that everyone out on that ridge knew THAT MORNING that the two-track headed to the Boulder Springs Ranch.
ME: This statement from Brendan has always been so disjointed and contains so much ‘hemming and hawing’ it’s hard to tell what Brendan was really tetifying to. Did he really mean they were all fully aware that the two-track would eventually take a hellacious left hand turn and then go east? Hard to say… and the investigators really were so generally BAD at ‘ cutting through the crap’ in ALL these interviews the chance was lost to get Brendan to clarify what the hell he was actually testifying to.
More later…
Another thing we have mentioned, regarding how the Yarnell Hill Fire might have positioned itself to burn down the large bowl and then up the fuel-filled bowl in which the Granite Mountain Hotshots deployed, has been spotting.
On March 12, 2015, Wildland Fire Lessons Lessons pusblished a video of a webinar called “Spot Fires.”
“Brian Potter, a research meteorologist with the USDA Forest Service, presented a summary of the state of science behind spot fires. Spotting is one characteristic of “extreme fire behavior,” capable of short range acceleration of fires as well as producing long-distance spot fires that complicate management efforts. The presentation will summarize current knowledge and tools, as well as knowledge gaps.”
https://youtu.be/G8N6A8lN6ew?list=PLTErVrHH6uJja-ljtn7z9Q5Sz9WtCPGw1
A new Yarnell Hill ALJ hearing file addition to day. If I read it right it is pushing a hearing out to OCTOBER from AUGEST.
No SETTLEMENTS more requests between the State and ADOSH.
I did note a request for all of BR statements.
As I said yesterday it aint over by a long shot—-
The Tribunal from what I read was postponed from the 7th do to Personal Lawyer Problems.
WTKTT I am sure will post the info I don’t have his magic wand, To old to understand MAGIC.
The ALJ Hearing file page is here…
https://sites.google.com/site/yarnellhillinformation/home/yarnellhillaljhearingfile
The TWO new documents just filed TODAY ( at the bottom of the page ) are…
2015_03 Updated 04.03.15.pdf – Filed March 2015 – 5 hours ago
2015_04 Updated 04.06.15.pdf – Filed March 2015 – 5 hours ago
I’ve been on airplanes all day today ( and will be tomorrow ) and these documents barely fit on this stupidphone I have… so I can’t ‘cut and paste’ any of the VERY interesting things revealed in these documents… but I will do so as soon as I can.
I also have OTHER ABC15 Helicopter footage ‘crossfades’ to post when I get back near my desktop computer.
My VERY quick ‘evaluation’ of these two new documents ( that I still haven’t even finished reading yet )…
* SUMMARY
There is absolutely NO SIGN of any ‘settlement’ being reached or even any chance of that happening.
It looks like the ‘court calendar’ is about to become ‘unfrozen’ again and then it is FULL SPEED AHEAD to a full-blown HEARING.
And YES… because of the ‘pause’ in the calendar for ‘negotiations’ ( which have apparently totally FAILED ) and some very sad personal issues regarding some of the attorneys involved ( mother of one just had a heart attack, another suffered a bad fall injury, etc. ) the DATE for the actual HEARING in this “Arizona Forestry vs. ADOSH” case now seems to have been pushed ahead ( again ) from July 8, 2015 to October 13, 2015.
That’s a THREE MONTH increase.
* 2015_03 Updated 04.03.15.pdf – Filed March 2015 – 5 hours ago
This document is HUGE and contains TONS of ‘lawyer blah-blah’.
From what I can tell… it’s really mostly just all about Arizona Forestry now filing individual motions of dismissal requests for some/all of the actual ADOSH ‘citations’… and they also want that process to follow more closely the actual ‘Civil Case’ procedures than the ‘ALJ procedures’.
I have NOT finished reading this document.
It’s a testament to “lawyer blah-blah” and the number of trees they can kill.
Bottom line here is just more proof that the ‘court calendar’ is coming ‘unfrozen’ again shortly and there has been NO ‘settlement’ reached in this case.
* 2015_04 Updated 04.06.15.pdf – Filed March 2015 – 5 hours ago
Contains request(s) for the COMPLETE SAIT Interview notes and/or transcriptions of the SAIT’s interviews with any/all Blue Ridge Hotshots.
Even ADOSH can’t believe the bullshit notes the SAIT actually published from those interviews is really all they have…. given that Mike Dudley stated several previously UNKNOWN statements coming from members of Blue Ridge that he seemed to be recalling from those interviews but none of that was in the published SAIT Blue Ridge interview notes.
Arizona Forestry responds by saying that the SAIT people were NOT ’employees’ of Arizona Forestry and they don’t even know what the SAIT really had or didn’t have. They say all THEY ever got was the same obtuse and dis-jointed crap that was released in the “SAIT Interview Notes” document.
Interestingly enough… in order to ‘press their point’ and prove to Judge Mosesso that they DID supply everything the SAIT gave them to ADOSH already… they reprint their complete MANIFEST of the SAIT documents they received.
That MANIFEST shows some documents that I don’t think have ever actually been seen before, and it also has a ‘column’ that indicates exactly HOW ( As in… from WHO ) those documents/photos/videos entered into the SAIT’s possession.
Just TWO of the MANY interesting things to note in THAT manifest would be…
1) The SAIT has NO IDEA where the CD with Brendan’s iPhone photos and videos came from. They also have no idea if it contains ALL of the photos and videos that Brendan might have shot that day ( with accompanying audio ).
It is STILL possible that Brendan McDonough himself not only HEARD GM intra-crew conversations that has never reported to investigators… but that he, himself, might have also recorded some video/audio of one or more of these conversations which has also never seen the light of day.
2) The says they had the ‘Helmet Camera’ video early on… but they listed the SOURCE as simply “Unknown Firefighter”. So even the SAIT didn’t really want anyone to know that PNF off-the-radar hire Aaron Hulburd was ever at the Yarnell Fire and was the one actually shooting that video.
There’s more… but I am ‘outta time’.
Plane is ‘on approach’ to landing and gotta turn this puppy off.
After reading through a bit of the 850 page file and then giving up after a hundred or so pages, I only found one thing of note.
One of the citations that ADF is contesting is in regards to the “danger” that the resources in Div Z were placed in.
All of the interviews and documents cited concur with Marquez’s assertion that NO resources were ever assigned to Div Z. This includes interviews with both OPS and Marquez, himself. Add to that, that fact that no resource has ever stated that they were assigned by OPS to Zulu.
Even though there were plenty of resources east of the grader who were in great peril that afternoon, I think ADF has a good chance of getting this citation tossed on this technicality.
On another note, Marquez asserts no Div break was ever established, even though, as I recall, I believe Marsh told Able via phone that the grader was the “new” break, or that they had “worked it out”.
Anyone can choose to “release the hounds” and flood a case with motions… but that doesn’t mean you will get “dogs that will hunt”.
Personally… I think there is all the evidence in the world that there WAS a ‘Division Z’ established on the Yarnell Hill Fire on Sunday, June 30, 2013… and I believe ADOSH has already proved it.
Whether or not the actual ‘boundaries’ were ever fully defined and/or communicated to anyone… and whether or not the resources ‘working’ that now-established geographical ‘Division’ of the fire were ever fully informed they were ‘Division Z’ resources is just part of the astounding ‘screw-ups’ that were taking place that afternoon.
You have a guy ( Marquez ) testifying that he was TOLD he was ‘Division Z’, and he ends up in an ‘argument’ with the other ‘Division A’ about the exact boundaries of ‘Z’. OPS1 Todd Abel himself ( the man running the actual fire ) testified to ADOSH that he recalled ‘Division A’ phoning him and telling him that yes, he and ‘Division Z’ had ‘worked out a boundary’ eventually and it was the old-grader location.
That means that all resources WEST of a north-south line cut through the old-grader location were in ‘Division A’ ( At that time just Granite Mountain ) and all resources EAST of that same north-south Division line were all ( technically ) in “Division Z”.
It will be a hard road to go for the attorneys to actually PROVE that this was NOT the case that day.
They may be able to prove that no one who was now ( technically ) IN Division Z had any friggin’ idea they even WERE… but that is neither here nor there, legally speaking.
If the designated ‘Division Z’ Supervisor had actually REMAINED in the geographic Division he was now assigned ( and being paid ) to ‘Supervise’… maybe they would have.
But he didn’t. ‘Division Z’ went back north and was never ‘down there’ to actually RUN / SUPERVISE the ‘Division’ he had been assigned.
As ADOSH has ( I believe ) already shown… that most likely contributed to ALL of the chaos in ‘Division Z’ and the potential / actual entrapment situations that afternoon.
So, in looking around to find out if Prescott eNews had published what Lynne LaMaster promised in her April 2 article, “CITY ATTORNEY PALADINI COMPLETES INVESTIGATION OF ICMA ‘TAMPERING”
………_Tomorrow we’ll look at some of the differences between the two reports.”
………which they still haven’t done……
I discovered, via a facebook post on Prescott Firefighter’s Last Alarm, that yesterday, on KCYA, there was an interview with Joe Stutler, the person who did the wildland segment of the ICMA Report.
The link on that facebook post goes to a website that doesn’t have the intervew archived.
But KCMA does have it archived and it is here:
It’s the third report down on the page. I don’t know how long it will stay there.
“The report continues to make news. The man who wrote the report says what was released was different than what he wrote.”
http://www.kyca.info
OK here’s a link to the actual mp3:
http://www.kyca.info/audio/news/STUTLER%20WRAP.mp3
Reply to Marti Reed post on April 8, 2015 at 12:35 pm
>> Marti said…
>>
>> So, in looking around to find out if Prescott eNews had published
>> what Lynne LaMaster promised in her April 2 article,
>> “CITY ATTORNEY PALADINI COMPLETES INVESTIGATION
>> OF ICMA ‘TAMPERING”…..
>>
>> “Tomorrow we’ll look at some of the differences between the two reports.”
>>
>> ………which they still haven’t done……
>>
>> I discovered, via a facebook post on Prescott Firefighter’s Last
>> Alarm, that yesterday, on KCYA, there was an interview with
>> Joe Stutler, the person who did the wildland segment of
>> the ICMA Report.
>>
>> The link on that facebook post goes to a website that doesn’t
>> have the intervew archived.
>>
>> But KCMA does have it archived and it is here…
>>
>> Original MP3 audio file of this interview with Joe Stutler…
>>
>> http://www.kyca.info/audio/news/STUTLER%20WRAP.mp3
Thank you for finding this, Marti.
And here is a complete TRANSCRIPT of that RADIO interview with Joe Stutler.
** KYCA RADIO INTERVIEW WITH JOE STUTLER
Joe Stutler was the 3rd party contractor hired by ICMA to do the ‘Wildland’ evaluation for the report ICMA was hired to do for the City of Prescott.
Here he is being interviewed ( LIVE ) by radio station KYCA following Darrell Willis’ accusations ( in his own resignation letter ) that that part of the ICMA report was ‘tampered with’…
COMPLETE TRANSCRIPT OF THIS RADIO INTERVIEW
————————————————————————————
Announcer: The report ( in question ) is the wildland section of the ICMA analysis of the Prescott Fire Department. Former Wildland Division Chief Darrell Willis alleged in his letter of resignation last month that someone had tampered with it.
The man who investigated and wrote the wildland report at the request of the International County Management Association ( ICMA ), which had been retained by the City, was Joe Stutler, senior advisor to the Deschutes County Board of Commissioners in Bend, Oregon.
DID someone tamper with your report?
Joe Stutler:
There’s not a yes or no answer there.
I was asked to work with ICMA on the report for the Prescott Fire Department and my particular area of expertise is wildland fire so I came to Prescott and did the interviews and field trip and looked around and so I put my report together and I sent it in to fellow professionals with ICMA that were dealing with EMS and dispatch and structural and the other aspects of Prescott Fire and I sent that in.
Must have been in February of 2014.
And then, ya know, it was like… ah… did not hear ANYTHING for several months despite several efforts to… ya know… coordinate the overall completion of the report.
And, as I recall, somewhere in June I found out that the ICMA report had been completed and submitted to the City of Prescott… and so I contacted ICMA said “Hey… I understand the report has been released. I’d like a copy of it”.
So when I got the copy of the report it was clear that my submissions to the overall report… the wildland thing… had in fact been changed.
If representatives from ICMA would have contacted me and said “Hey, we’re bringing this report together and let’s talk about these specific recommendations and in the context of the overall report”… I would have had that discussion and perhaps we could have reached common ground on some of the recommendations.
As it turned out… there was NO consultation and my report, that I was given credit for, was, in fact, changed.
And I don’t know WHO did that.
The only thing I know is that when I look at MY report and what I submitted and the final ICMA report… they were different.
The recommendations had been changed without any consultation whatsoever and, in fact, they had hired me to… ya know… do my best to represent the risk assessment. What I saw from a wildland fire perspective for Prescott. And so I did that.
And so I… when I got the report… I made contact with ICMA and I objected.
I said… ya know… that’s not my report and I don’t think it’s accurate in terms of what the risk… or the recommendations.
And so we went back and forth on that some… and finally ICMA says “Hey, we’re going to… uh… and we consent to you… you know… having contact with the City of Prescott and the Fire Chief and the Deputy City Manager to talk about your version of the report”… and I said “That’s great”.
So… within a day or so… I had a conference call with the Fire Chief and the Deputy City Manager… and I had forwarded them MY report… and we talked about the differences and MY assessment… and we had a very good discussion.
And they said thanks… thanked me for that… and then I had a subsequent email from the Chief with an action plan that he had for the report in terms of… you know… what it was going to take for ICMA, or Prescott, to… you know… implement some or all of the report… and I thought… that’s GOOD.
And I… and to… in fairness to the Chief and in fairness to the Deputy City Manager… uh… they listened… they asked good questions… and I… uh… understand that they… uh.. you know… they paid for a report and it’s going to be at that point a BUSINESS decision that the City of Prescott has for… you know… to… ah… implement all or some or none of the report.
That’s entirely up to them.
Announcer: At the request of City Councilman Charlie Arnold, City of Prescott Attorney Jon Paladini conducted and inquiry into Darrell Willis’ accusation of tampering. In a written report to the City Council, Paladini concluded that although there ARE differences in the draft report prepared by Joe Stutler and the final report presented to the City Council by ICMA… he could find NO evidence of tampering.
For the news 1490… I’m Don Steele.
————————————————————————————
END of KYCA RADIO INTERVIEW with Joe Stutler
Bob Powers says APRIL 7, 2015 AT 2:00 PM
http://www.investigativemedia.com/yarnell-hill-fire-chapter-xiii/#comment-288677
This might have got lost to EN and all.
WantsToKnowTheTruth says APRIL 7, 2015 AT 3:26 PM
Reply to Bob Powers post on April 7, 2015 at 2:00 pm
>> Bob Powers said… >> >> This might have got lost to EN and all. >> >> http://www.investigativemedia.com/yarnell-hill-fire-chapter-xiii/#comment-288677
And just in case someone’s mouse is on the fritz today…
On April 6, 2015 at 9:35 pm, Mike Schinstock said…
————————————————————–
Elizabeth said that on the Clear Creek Fire Fred Schoeffler wanted his assistant or Squad Bosses to keep fighting fire after they were no longer comfortable doing so and the assistant or squad bosses basically gave Schoeffler the metaphorical middle finger and moved to the black regardless of Freds view. I was the foreman of the PHS at the time (Friday 14 July 2000 at 1430hrs) That never happened. Period. ————————————————————-
KEY Phrase: THAT NEVER HAPPENED, PERIOD.
Bob Powers says APRIL 7, 2015 AT 4:11 PM
Elizabeth you have no comment on the above statement ???????? It just debunked every thing you have promoted about Fred. and even your sources??????
Elizabeth says APRIL 8, 2015 AT 3:29 AM
Bob, I’m not sure what you are linking to, so I will just say this: I stand by what I said regarding Fred Schoeffler. I sincerely do.
No comment.
Just for the record:
Elizabeth says
APRIL 5, 2015 AT 4:46 PM
On the Clear Creek Fire, your pal Fred Schoeffler wanted his assistant or squad bosses to keep fighting fire AFTER they had decided they were no longer comfortable doing so, and the assistant or squad bosses basically gave Fred the metaphorical middle finger and moved to the black regardless of Fred’s view. That didn’t harm the careers of any of them. For example, Mike Shinstock (who was one of the senior guys under Fred on the Clear Creek Fire, if I recall correctly) ultimately became the Supt. of the Payson Hotshots after Fred was finally out. So senior guys on hotshot crews will absolutely disobey orders or push back if they feel like a Supt. is making unsafe demands. (On the Clear Creek Fire, based on what I was told, I believe Fred ranted while the guys were in or moving to the black, saying something on their crew net like “AM I GOING TO BE THE ONLY ONE OUT HERE FIGHTING FIRE????” Yes, Fred, you are. 🙂 )
I’m going to re-post this way up here at the top so EVERYBODY will see it and understand it, and so I don’t have to keep repeating myself, either in part or in whole.
And then I’m going to completely walk away from it, unless someone has something INTELLIGENT and ACCURATE to say that I feel interested in responding to.
This:
“In this presentation, a more accurate timeline and relevant photos will be presented, to assess how they line up with the presumed wind event, and relevant operational take-aways (such as the need to acknowledge that even the best, most accurate weather forecast might not be able to be linearly used in predicting in detail short term wildland fire behavior) will be discussed.”
I have NEVER assumed that that 3:30 PM forecast should have been “linearly” used in predicting anything “in detail.”
As a matter of fact, THAT has been one of my major points all along. And it’s one of the points that, essentially EN has, exasperatingly, not been able to get through HER head.
And her saying that she knows the “wind event” that was forecasted didn’t happen because she doesn’t seen lawn chairs blowing around in pictures………..
I’ve never talked about “a wind event.” I’m pretty sure most of us have tried to counter that idea over and over again, but “our counselor” has been the one ALL ALONG who’s kept PUSHING it.
I’ve talked about a the thunderstorm with an outflow boundary with winds up to 50 mph, which was actually what was forecasted. Which pushed the fire into a dynamic clockwise (as they do in the northern hemisphere) rotating column.
That is about the CAUSE of the changing prevailing wind (which, by the time 4:30 rolled around, was NOT coming out of the NW, as EN is still scratching her fingernails on the chalkboard while repeatedly trying to convince the universe.
The micro-effects of that thunderstorm outflow boundary are, as I have REPEATEDLY said, basically unpredictable, depending on a multitude of parameters, one of the biggest and most important being TOPOGRAPHY.
None of this is anything NEW to any of us, as has been demonstrated ad nauseum here, who have actually lived and worked in the southwest.
In some ways it’s totally rocket science and, in some other ways it’s totally not rocket science.
THE POINT BEING that when you have a fire like that, in explosive fuels, with that kind of weather heading toward it,
You don’t have to be a rocket scientist to listen to the friggin meteorologist via the friggin FBAN (both of whom ARE probably more of a “rocket scientist” than you are), and QUICKLY find yourself the nicest, clearest, safest place you possibly can (which CAN be VERY DIFFICULT to do IN THE LAST MINUTE) and
HUNKER DOWN.
Somebody DIDN’T DO THAT on the Yarnell Hill Fire. And they’re DEAD.
Fire Weather Behavior 101.
I’m VERY interested in what Fire Weather Behavior Experts have to say (and argue about, because that’s what they do) regarding the Yarnell Hill Fire. I find it absolutely fascinating. I find that rotating column REALLY absolutely fascinating.
That being said, EN is NOT a Fire Weather Behavior Expert.
Not even close.
Marti, says: “I’ve talked about a the thunderstorm with an outflow boundary with winds up to 50 mph, which was actually what was forecasted. Which pushed the fire into a dynamic clockwise (as they do in the northern hemisphere) rotating column.”
Marti, what is your specific support for the last part of your above statement, in which you assert that the alleged outflow boundary winds “pushed the [Yarnell Hill Fire] fire into a dynamic clockwise… rotating column”? That is one of the most interesting theories I have heard in a very long time, and it runs counter to my understand about how a column forms. You saying that outflow boundary winds PUSHED the YHF fire “into a dynamic … rotating column” is something that I have never seen posited by any scientist anywhere (regarding the YHF column or any other column). Maybe you picked it up from your dad, who clearly seems like he was an expert regarding weather. Regardless, I will happily take any citations or intel you are willing to share. Thank you in advance.
I am sure Marty will answer you—
But as usual you do not read this Blog very well or you would see and read about this rotating smoke cloud from WTKTT who also posted pictures.
The heat and wind together can create a fast rising and some times rotating smoke.
its not a tornado as it stays in one place but is highly visible and actually shows rotation.
In the LA Basin when a fire punches thru an inversion layer it is much the same but will pull the Fire with it some times that fast rising smoke column will show rotation
biased on the wind hitting it once above the smog layer or Inversion.
I have see this only a few times but it is quite amazing to watch.
Marti Thanks for your narrative above
Bob, it is you who did not read. Go back and re-read Marti’s comment.
Marti states that “thunderstorm with an outflow boundary with winds up to 50 mph actually PUSHED “the fire into a dynamic clockwise… rotating column.” Marti is saying that the column itself was caused by the “thunderstorm with an outflow boundary.” I have never heard of such a thing, but obviously Marti knows more since her father was a meteorologist, and I am hoping that she will expand on her understanding of the cause of the actual column!
Since you have never been on a real wild land fire and never seen a rotating column or even a fire swirl live you need to look at PICTURES.
As discussed down stream by WTKTT with pictures from Yarnell.
The thunder storm noted Winds did create a rotating column and I have seen it on a few occasions it is not a normal every day thing the conditions
have to be right.
You do not go back and read any thing so do not lecture me.
Bob, I have SEEN pictures of them.
But Marti indicated that the column of the YHF (presumably BOTH columns) was CAUSED by the outflow boundary, which is totally different than what I had been learning elsewhere about HOW columns form. I am trying to figure out where Marti got her intel teaching her that an outflow boundary can cause a column to form, so that I myself can try to learn more about such an interesting theory.
You said:
“Marti indicated that the column of the YHF (presumably BOTH columns) was CAUSED by the outflow boundary,”
EXCUSE ME, but I did not indicate that AT ALL.
The friggin FIRE caused the frigging column.
The outflow boundary wind caused the column to ROTATE.
THAT is what I said.
“I’ve talked about a the thunderstorm with an outflow boundary with winds up to 50 mph, which was actually what was forecasted. Which pushed the fire into a dynamic clockwise (as they do in the northern hemisphere) rotating column.”
Marti—Deep Breathing and again.
Namaste.
Amazing.
Marti, you are now saying that the alleged outflow boundary winds made the column rotate? (You actually said “The outflow boundary wind caused the column to ROTATE”?)
Hm. That’s interesting. Where are you getting that from? I have never heard such a thing, but obviously you know more than I do, because your dad was a meteorologist, so any help you can give on this would be stellar. Thank you! 🙂
And I should have added “I apologize if I am missing some obvious point!”
First off, there were no “alleged” outflow boundary winds.
There has been nothing in the past year and a half, at least so far as I know, that has contested the existence of those outflow boundary winds.
So, all things considered, given what I have seen, I’m willing to accept them as being beyond the definition of alleged.
Regarding what you said:
“Marti, you are now saying that the alleged outflow boundary winds made the column rotate?”
See this, which is inside of this thread, so I guess you think your time is too “valuable” to actually spend about five minutes of your precious time reading this actual thread.
http://www.investigativemedia.com/yarnell-hill-fire-chapter-xiii/#comment-289299
Not to mention ALL of the posts, most of which I wrote this morning, below this one.
You say:
“I have never heard such a thing.”
Apparently, you haven’t been paying attention.
Which doesn’t surprise me, all things considered.
I’ve been saying that the thunderstorm outflow winds cause the fire, and thus, its column, to rotate for MONTHS.
PS.
Please DO your OWN homework.
Marti, you are saying that the COLUMN was rotating because the FIRE was rotating? The FIRE was rotating – that is your contention?
With all due respect, I am pretty sure that that is not how it works….
I already said, in great detail, how and why I might be mistaken.
I am perfectly willing for anybody, who has the creds and the experience to know better, to correct me.
That’s, honestly, why I wrote that post.
I have been writing about a “rotating column” for MONTHS.
Nobody has EVER CHALLENGED me on that.
If the model inside my head is wrong, I would LOVE to know about that.
I watched the Air Study Videos. I haz eyes.
We had an EXTENSIVE conversation about this in Chapter XII.
It is NOT NEW.
There is also THIS:
“Yarnell Hill Fire Geographical Analysis by Tom Dolan.”
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IP_2wWqTisU&feature=youtu.be
Which is connected to this:
Yarnell Hill Fire by Tom Dolan
http://www.outdoorstorms.com/yarnellhillfire.htm
And further described in this:
Yarnell Revisited
http://www.geolobo.com/?p=483
Good stuff same thing we talked about down a chapter or 2.
For some one who is going to talk about Fire weather EN is totally lost.
She al ready admitted she has never even hiked in a western forest,
but knows all about weather in the mountains and the effects of weather an