Please begin Chapter XIII here:
Chapter I, Chapter II, Chapter II supplement, Chapter III, Chapter IV, Chapter V, Chapter VI, Chapter VII, Chapter VIII , Chapter IX, Chapter X, Chapter XI and Chapter XII.
© Copyright 2015 John Dougherty, All rights Reserved. Written For: Investigative MEDIA
Please begin Chapter XIV that is now available on the site. Thanks everyone!
Thank you, John.
And here is a direct ‘clickable’ link to the new “Chapter XIV” ( Chapter Fourteen ) of
this ongoing discussion…
http://www.investigativemedia.com/yarnell-hill-fire-chapter-xiv/
Well…it seems I owe Brendan an apology.
“I’m sorry for every thing I have said about you up until now Brendan, we can all learn something from how clever you are, at least I know I can.”
You have played everybody for a fool and now you will get the last laugh on your way to the bank. Isn’t America Great?
Oh, and one more thing. I’m not going to buy any of the books, I am going to wait for the movie to come out. I bet there won’t be a dry eye in the house. I thought the movie about the Maersk Alabama was pretty good, although I did wait for it to come out on DVD. But I won’t do the same for the movie about the Yarnell HIll Fire, I will pay full ticket price with surround sound!
P.S. Marti…you could have written a book, but you can’t sell something you have demonstrated you are willing to give away for free. How much do you want to bet this thread is being used for research by any number of people writing books about the Yarnell Hill Fire and the day the Lone Survivor fought his way through the flames and lived to tell the tale…for a price?
P.S. WTKTT…if the Administrative Law Judge who is hearing this case had any stones, we would have already heard Brendan’s story by now…so don’t hold breath waiting for him to compel Brendan to talk.
Now that’s what I call a tight Brotherhood!
Well… I’m not sure about Judge Michael A. Mosesso. There’s really no telling what a Judge might do once he comes to realize that there’s a good chance the key witness in a case he/she happens to be presiding over is basically just jerking EVERBODY off. Some Judges don’t take kindly to that. We shall see.
As for the’book deal’… your instincts above are spot on. It’s pretty much a given, already, that this is just as much a MOVIE deal as it is a BOOK deal.
That’s how this Steve Fisher ( Brendan’s Beverly Hills agent ) guy operates. He doesn’t even DO deals unless there’s a screenplay and a movie looming ‘on the horizon’.
Ditto for this Stephan Talty ‘ghost writer’.
Ever since he coauthored the ‘Captain Philips’ book and got a taste of the kind of money that shows up when there’s also the chance of a movie deal… those are the projects HE has been focusing on.
One of the troubling aspects of both Fisher and Talty’s involvement is that neither one is dedicated to the TRUTH nearly as much as they are dedicated to just having a successful return on whatever they get involved with.
These guys are NOT biographers or interested in doing a documentary.
They are in the MOVIE business.
I hope you are right about the Judge. I always expect the worst, that way I am never disappointed and sometimes I am pleasantly surprised.
And I love a good ole God, Guts and Glory movie as much as the next guy. Like I said a long time ago, America needs and loves our heroes, that’s one big reason we make so many of them.
**
** NEW AZCENTRAL EDITORIAL DEMANDS THAT BRENDAN MCDONOUGH TESTIFY
This was just published a few hours ago at AZCENTRAL…
TO BRENDAN MCDONOUGH: Well enough to help write a book? Then TESTIFY!
Published by: Editorial board, The Arizona Republic, 6:09 p.m. MST April 22, 2015
From the article….
———————————————————————————–
Could the story of Brendan McDonough get any stranger?
Perhaps we’ll find out when we read the book he’s writing.
Our View: If the surviving hotshot heard something important, then he should testify under oath — not sell the info for $22 plus tax.
If McDonough is well enough to cooperate in writing a book, he is well enough to show up for a deposition.
———————————————————————————–
I also didn’t want to leave this ‘question’ from the AZCENTRAL Editorial Board hanging…
Q: Could the story of Brendan McDonough get any stranger?
A: You damn betcha. I don’t think this ‘Brendan’ guy has even scratched the surface of ‘the crazy town’ that he’s able to come up with if he tries even just a little harder.
In some ways… the “Brendan Show” might just be getting started, here.
Awhile back, someone requested some good video footage of wildland fire burning around a Safety Zone. Here is a link for the August 11, 204 Beaver Fire Entrapment Facilitated Learning Analysis (FLA). There is another link embedded in the FLA for the YouTube video footage of the event. This occurred on the Klamath National Forest in Northern California. This was a very interesting event with a good outcome and many lessons to be learned. Both reading the report and watching the video will benefit and educate you.
http://www.nifc.gov/wfstar/modules/summary/2014season/Beaver_Fire_Entrapment_FLA.pdf
I realize that you all are onto other subjects now but just wanted to close a loop here.
Go to the center of page 13 for the video clip and several fire progression photos.
Very well laid out package had enough area to survive in also open timber.
surprised the cat and truck weren’t both together.
Once the main fire started indrafting from the landing to the fire, I would have been tempted to run a drip torch around the edge of the bare dirt/fuel area. Add a bit more burned fuels versus unburned.
But that’s just me..
ME TOO looks like there was good ground fuel to work with.
**
** PRESCOTT DAILY COURIER ARTICLES ABOUT RECENT DEVELOPMENTS – NOT!
I was going to post some links to the Prescott Daily Courier articles regarding any number of recent important developments in the Yarnell / Granite Mountain story such as…
1) Arizona Forestry Lawyers ask for ANOTHER 30 days to settle ‘wrongful death’ lawsuits.
2) “Arizona Forestry vs. ADOSH” mediation has totally FAILED and ‘calendar’ is active again.
3) At right around the same time Brendan McDonough’s therapist and lawyer were cancelling his already-scheduled February 26, 2015 deposition because they say it would have been ‘not good’ for Brendan to talk about what he knows’… we learn that Brendan was signing a “tell-all” BOOK DEAL with a famous author in a ‘deal’ arranged by his California ‘agent’.
Practically no other paper has been covering these kinds of ‘stories’ as closely as the Prescott Daily Courier nor is there probably another media outlet which has a ‘readership’ with as much of an ‘interest’ in all these stories…
…but all of sudden it is like the Prescott Daily Courier has decided to STOP covering this story.
There are NO links I can give you to ANY Prescott Daily Courier articles about any of the above ‘new’ developments which are being widely covered by MANY other Arizona ( and National ) NEWS outlets.
The last ‘breaking news’ that the Prescott Daily Courier seemed to cover was when they immediately followed AZCENTRAL’s breaking news story about Brendan McDonough inquiring about the possibilities of him getting a ‘medical disability’ pension via City of Prescott.
They were ‘right there’ with their own version of that ‘story’ within HOURS… but since then… it’s like the PDC has decided to ‘lay off’ the Yarnell/GM/McDonough reporting altogether.
I’ve never seen them NOT covering these important ‘breaking stories’ for their readership the way the are NOT covering them at this particular moment in time.
So I don’t know what that means.
It’s just an OBSERVATION.
But… that being said… am I the only one who is actually still looking SIDEWAYS at ALL of this ‘news’ that has been ‘popping’ lately… and how suddenly AZCENTRAL seems to be taking a leading role in ‘breaking’ all this GM/McDonough related news?…
…AND the fact that all this stuff is ‘popping’ right here at the END of that 30 day ‘negotiation’ period between ‘Arizona Forestry’ lawyers and the ‘wrongful death’ platintiffs?
…AND the fact that the RESULT of that 30 day ‘negotiation’ is that Arizona Forestry says they now want ANOTHER 30 days to try and ‘settle’ with the Hotshot’s families?
Settle WHAT?
What will take ANOTHER 30 days that couldn’t be accomplished in the LAST 30 days?
Does anyone else think this SUDDEN announcement that Brendan does plan to ( and may have already done so ) “TELL ALL” about what he knows just might have something to do with trying to ‘satisfy’ some very angry and determined ‘wrongful death’ lawsuit plaintiffs?
Just like the ‘new fire shelter’ announcements suddenly ‘popping’ out of nowhere in the middle of this last 30 day negotiating period… could ‘Arizona Forestry’ actually trying to be showing the families that Brendan really is going to “tell the truth” at some point… like they want him to?
If the ‘book deal’ announcements we saw ‘popping’ today really do have ANYTHING to do with trying to influence the negotiations with the ‘wrongful death’ plaintiffs I hope they stick to their guns.
I hope they look the ‘Arizona Forestry’ attorneys in the eye from across the table and say “Brendan is free to make any private, commercial deals he wants with anyone he wants… WE still need him to testify UNDER-OATH and under PENALTY-OF-PERJURY about what is now PERFECTLY obvious he has known all along but was CHOOSING to withhold from all investigators.”
There is just simply a part of me that is still VERY suspicious about what’s been happening lately, given where the ‘negotiations’ actually are for the critical ‘wrongful death’ lawsuits.
From the moment Prescott City Attorney Jon Paladini suddenly ( and inexplicably ) decided to “spill his guts” about the Willis/McDonough meetings and conversations… right on through McDonough’s own agent suddenly ( and inexplicably ) deciding it is AOK to ‘spill HIS guts’ about Brendan’s months-old book deal…
…something isn’t passing the “smell test” here.
– City Attorney Jon Paladini did NOT have to say one word about anything…
– But he DID.
– Someone in Prescott City Human Resources ( Melissa Fousek? ) did NOT have to say anything about Brendan doing nothing but just inquiring about a ‘medical disability pension’…
– But he/she DID.
– McDonough’s agent did NOT have to say anything about any ‘book deal’…
– But he DID.
All of a sudden… a lot of people ( all at once ) are all seeming to decide ( all at once ) that it is now AOK to be ‘spilling their guts’ and ‘talking’ about these things… and things some of them have known for quite some time now.
WHY?
WHY is it OK to be talking now ‘all of a sudden’?
What are we (still) missing here?
As I said when the revelation broke a lot more information was sure to follow.
A member of the families told me two things one they will not settle with out the whole story.
Two they have more information not released about the same stuff that Brendon stated
and more. They can not discuss at this time but there Lawyer is prepared to go forward in the Lawsuit to uncover all the facts.
So I am still betting there is still a lot more still to come as this story unfolds and opens up.
PANDORAS BOX has been opened what will fall out next? Other witnesses with supporting evidence? That mysterious copy of the argument that has not surfaced yet that I was told about last Fall. Stuff we have not herd about yet that are under raps.
I think the pressure is building to a big explosion and the book deal added to it.
We have got a lot of information in the past 30 days compared to the past year.
Our Patience may be starting to pay off in the final story breaking soon. I do not doubt that the news media is out there looking for and digging now for information to break news stories before some one else beats them to it.
Reply to Bob Powers post on April 22, 2015 at 7:37 am
>> Bob Powers said…
>>
>> A member of the families told me two things…
>> one they will not settle with out the whole story.
That’s good. They shouldn’t.
But I hope they also realize that the smiling ‘lawyers’ on the other side of the table from them aren’t even near done ‘playing games’ yet.
Just having a ‘story’ that SHOULD have been told from day one suddenly ’emerge’ does NOT automatically mean anyone is finally getting the “truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth”.
If these Arizona Forestry lawyers are, in any way, turning to the families and saying “See.. Brendan’s gonna do a book. He’s gonna ‘tell all’ in the book… so whadda ya want from us?”… I hope the plaintiff’s maintain their mirrored smiles right back at them and say “…Sworn depositions. Under oath. Under penalty of perjury. ASAP. Make it happen.”.
>> Bob Powers also said…
>>
>> Two they have more information not released about the same
>> stuff that Brendon stated and more. They can not discuss at this
>> time but there Lawyer is prepared to go forward in the Lawsuit
>> to uncover all the facts.
Also good. No way they should even consider any ‘offers’ ( which are probably being made ) that suggest whatever evidence THEY have should ‘never see the light of day’ as a condition of any settlement.
WTKTT,
Paladini’s revelations are likely due to the City’s desire to be thrown clear of the slow-motion train wreck which is now occurring (so as to not be accused of having ‘hidden or covered anything up’). It’s also possible they were aware of more of the on-going situation (book deals, etc,) than we think they were.
I believe that the publisher’s motivation for disclosure at this time was, as I have stated previously, their desire to create an early buzz for the project, which I’m sure they try and do for all such projects. With McDonough apparently having been mum on a lot of different things with a lot of different people, it’s entirely possible that the person releasing the information for the publisher wasn’t aware of all of the legal machinations at work, and the subsequent fallout that would occur. Oops.
As for the Daily Courier, you’re giving them too much credit for a news organization. They do an awful lot of regurgitating of other entities stories, along with printing many PR releases verbatim. The reporting staff operates on a shoestring budget while under a tight reign from the editorial staff. While they SHOULD BE the lead news source for stories related to YH, these stories will continue to be broken by Investigative Media, The Arizona Republic, and the Phoenix New Times due to the reasons mentioned above. The DC will continue to gather the scraps and re-work other’s revelations as they have alway done. So, don’t hold your breath on the DC aspect.
TTWARE… thank you. Good observations and I think you are probably right on all counts.
As for the PDC thing… Yes… it’s mostly just ‘ambulance chasing’ journalism on their part but so far… they HAVE managed to stay at least a car length or two behind the news leaders on these Yarnell/GM/McDonough stories.
THIS time… they aren’t even trying to ‘catch up’ and it’s odd that even they have no ‘followup’ now to some of these stories that feature Prescott officials.
Maybe Joanna Dodder Nellans and Cindy Barks are both ‘on vacation’ at the same time… or something… ( or maybe they are purposely deciding not to contribute to these latest stories about their own hometown and officials in it ).
And speaking about books. I found something this past weekend that I was going to post, but I had to do other things and forgot.
Kyle Dickman is publishing a book about the Yarnell Fire. It’s called:
“On the Burning Edge: A Fateful Fire and the Men Who Fought It ”
http://www.amazon.com/On-Burning-Edge-Fateful-Fought/dp/0553392123
It will be released on May 12, 2015.
This Amazon page contains its first chapter. I haven’t read it yet.
Oh, and speaking, again, about BOOKS.
Looks like Fernanda Santos, is working on a book, too!!!
Looking Ahead: Wildfire Season 2015
http://uanews.org/calendar/59121-looking-ahead-wildfire-season-2015
“Join University of Arizona School of Journalism friends, faculty, students and alumni for a special evening in Phoenix spotlighting our science journalism program. It’s an opportunity for Valley friends and alumni to connect, stay up to date on the great things happening in the school, and listen to an informative Earth Day program on a vital ecological issue in Arizona and the Southwest. The centerpiece will be a panel discussion looking ahead to Arizona’s wildfire season featuring three of the top experts in the field.
Fernanda Santos, The New York Times Phoenix bureau chief, is the author of an upcoming book on the deadly Yarnell Hill Fire. Jim Paxon, former Southwest Interagency Management Team spokesman, kept the public informed on the Rodeo Chediski Fire. Donald Falk, a UA professor, is an internationally recognized expert in the ecology and science of wildland fires.
Beer, wine and hors d’oeuvres will be served.
…..Date: April 22, 2015”
Oh great. We’ve got a wildfire on the east side of the Sandias right now, in Las Huertas Canyon, which is above Placitas, a relatively ancient awesome town whose biggest wildfire/watershed/flooding concern is a wildfire in that canyon.
Apparently, a hotshot crew that was conducting prescribed burning on Mount Taylor is heading to this fire.
Let me guess. Somebody walked off from a campfire that they didn’t put out.
Fortunately, we’re currently having a cold spell, with higher humidity, after we had three red flag warnings during the past three weeks.
Nobody can figure out if we in the Southwest are going to be “saved” or not by the weak El Nino that seems to be forming in the Pacific.
We’re three weeks into the “nail-biting” wildfire season here, after an idiot, who was an accomplice to a murder a number of years back, set at least three, if not more, fires in the Bosque that runs right up through the middle of Albuquerque.
This is what it is like to actually live with wildfire.
Some of it is theory. Some of it isn’t.
OK, back to reading Chapter One of Kyle’s book.
Maybe I/We should write a book.
And, all that said………
I really do believe that Albuquerque/Bernalillo County is more prepared for wildfire than Prescott has, after the Yarnell HIll Fire, “trimmed its budget” to be.
Marti,
Prescott still has a hotshot crew. Basically anything Prescott itself needs in terms of preparedness can be done now and could have been done in the past without a municipally run and supervised hotshot crew. What Prescott as a town won’t have, now, is a “cool thing” in terms of prestige, a potential profit center for the town, and a way for a few senior members of the town’s bureaucracy to potentially stay busy (and paid) after handing the reins of their old jobs over.
Also, frankly, defensible space and fuels reduction aren’t rocket science. It’s kind of like homes in the southeast finding a way for their lawns to stay mowed and reasonably weed-free, you can find a way to do it without expensive municipal lawn-mowing crews. And the same should apply to cutting back a little brush in Prescott, 5 guys from a Home Depot parking lot can get a lot of this done.
Reply to Marti Reed post on April 21, 2015 at 12:49 pm
>> Marti Reed said…
>>
>> Kyle Dickman is publishing a book about the Yarnell Fire. It’s called:
>> “On the Burning Edge: A Fateful Fire and the Men Who Fought It ”
>> http://www.amazon.com/On-Burning-Edge-Fateful-Fought/dp/0553392123
>> It will be released on May 12, 2015.
Well, unless I’m mistaken, that photo on the ‘supposed’ cover of the book isn’t
even from the Yarnell Fire. That’s not a good sign.
>> Marti also wrote…
>>
>> This Amazon page contains its first chapter. I haven’t read it yet.
I hope that isn’t the REAL ‘first Chapter’.
It’s all nice to read that disjointed text about ‘the first day back’ on the 2013
GM season and learn how Jesse Steed was so happy to be the acting superintendent
he would design the workouts to make people puke… but it has the same ‘feel’
as the article he wrote way back when. You can never be sure when he’s desrcibing reality and when he’s ‘making it up’ as he goes along.
LOL!!
I guess we’re BOTH going to have to buy the book and DISSECT it!!!!
So I just read Chapter One.
It’s definitely worth reading. The thing about Kyle is that he first started with a Forest Service Engine Crew when he was an 18-year-old college student and then went on to be a member of the Tahoe Hotshots, who he profiled earlier in June of 2013 right before the Yarnell Hill Fire.
Reading this chapter, I think he’s been doing a BUNCH of interviewing. He HAD to, in order to write just that chapter. He lives in Santa Fe, so it wouldn’t be hard or travel-time-consuming to do that.
I think this could be a REALLY interesting book.
Interesting, and TRAGIC, thing about those Tahoe Hotshots is that, in November of 2013, they were all celebrating the end of the season, getting pretty inebriated in the process, and one of their squad leaders walked off out of the party and, somehow, ended up prostrate on the road he was walking on, and, as a bunch of the OTHER Hotshots drove down that road, the driver of that car (who was, apparently also “under the influence”) drove over that Hotshot, who was, then, found dead.
It’s really an interesting thing to Google.
There seems to be some questioning as to whether or not that Hotshot might have been, actually, already dead or not when the Driver-Hotshot drove over him.
(There was another vehicle involved in the whole narrative.)
Kyle hasn’t written about any of this. But I have to imagine he’s gone through some inner conflict about which tragedy to focus his attention on.
Reply to Marti Reed post on April 21, 2015 at 5:32 pm
>> Marti said…
>>
>> I think this could be a REALLY interesting book.
Yes. Maybe even truthful.
The bottom line with the ‘book deal’ information that has come out only today is that we have ALWAYS known this was ‘coming’… and certain projects have been in various stages of ‘completion’ there ‘in the background’ for quite some time.
It has simply been assumed that no one doing a ‘book’ about the Yarnell tragedy would dare go to press until the lawsuits all ‘play out’.
The only thing that is is a little weird here is the TIMING… and this little tidbit of news that we are now supposed to accept the fact that Brendan’s therapist was telling attorneys who work for the Arizona Attorney General’s office ( and are tasked with representing Arizona State Forestry ) that it would be ‘too traumatic’ for Brendan to go through with a pre-scheduled behind-closed-doors deposition with THEM… but at the very same time the ink was drying on a “tell-all” book deal between Brendan and some famous author(s).
Have to admit… didn’t see THAT one coming.
So yes… there will be MANY books about Yarnell.
Which ones might actually be TRUE remains to be seen.
If the families really do still want “The Truth”… they will stick to their guns and still try to have Brendan deposed. That’s about the only way that any information coming out because of any backroom ‘book deals’ has a chance of being ‘believed’.
Only some actual ‘under oath testimony’ ( with actual perjury penalties involved ) sands the best chance of convincing the greatest number of people that what someone is saying happened out there that day is, in fact, the TRUTH.
You wrote:
“If the families really do still want “The Truth”… they will stick to their guns and still try to have Brendan deposed. That’s about the only way that any information coming out because of any backroom ‘book deals’ has a chance of being ‘believed’.
Only some actual ‘under oath testimony’ ( with actual perjury penalties involved ) sands the best chance of convincing the greatest number of people that what someone is saying happened out there that day is, in fact, the TRUTH.”
Exactly.
We have labored here for almost two years to dig down through everything that has been published via FOIAs to pin down some kind of FACTS i.e TRUTH.
And even WE haven’t even been able to get at that TRUTH because of the with-holding, on the part of various significantly important agencies, of EVIDENCE.
So, yes, I do wonder how it is that someone like Kyle Dickman (much less Fernanda Santos) is able to, at this time, before Brendan has even been deposed, publish a book on what happened at Yarnell, when even WE, who have labored at every inch of this all this time for free, can’t get at it.
I’m thinking Kyle has been doing a WHOLE LOT of interviewing (which I think HAS to be the basis of that Chapter One).
Did he interview Brendan for this book??? Who knows????
*Buys More Popcorn And Pizza* while pre-ordering the Kindle version of Kyle’s book.
Because who knows?????
I doubt Kyle interviewed Brendan because if he had gotten THAT scoop, there would be no basis for Brendan’s own book.
I’m not excited about this release at all because it’s being described as the ‘definitive’ book on the YHF when the ACTUAL DEFINITIVE INFORMATION has not been released yet.
The thing you have to watch out for with this Kyle Dickman guy is what he kept demonstrating when he wrote that big article way back when. ‘Wind him up’ with just a little bit of information and he ‘takes off’ like one of those friction toys on the floor.
Example: In that original article of his… he was absolutely SURE that Granite Mountain MUST have been only halfway down the slope on their descent into the canyon before they saw he fire ‘appearing’ at the mouth of the box canyon. He also then reported ( as if it was absolute FACT and as if even Brendan might have told him this ) that Granite Mountain then had to run FORWARD and finish ‘descending’ before they even found the site where they deployed.
So forget the fact that if they were halfway UP the descent path, they still MIGHT have had a chance at a ‘full reversal’… and forget the chance that Kyle cites no actual ‘source’ for his theory… he still reported this as absolute FACT and that “that is the way it happened”.
I certainly hope his damn BOOK isn’t like that… or it is going to be just as hard to tell ( as it was in his Outsider Online magazine article ) when he is reporting something as TOLD to him or as SUPPORTED by evidence… and when he is just “making it up” like he’s good at doing.
OOOH BOY—–Just read on AZ Central that McDonough has signed a book deal to tell the whole story of Yarnell hill Fire. Before he even says any thing to the Families and the Public.
ARE YOU FRIQING KIDDING ME MONEY TALKS ???????????
So Brendan said that there was no bad decision etc, it was just an accident, but is now going to write a book about “no bad decisions”??
Sounds weird to me…
Right on–How can he turn tail now with his previous statement of no blame. Does that mean he is willing to make up a new story that pays and had let the loved ones down in their hope to find closure in this incident.
The general public likes tall tales–but those in the firefighting community and the loved ones of those deceased only want the facts.
One thing the bosses on this tragedy enjoy is the fact that all this attention is going to a green-horn firefighter who poo-poos the common sense rules of safety and whose ass was grass had not some well informed and brave blue ridge fireman rised his life to retrieve the look out that did not look out.
The focus needs to be on the whole picture and why those that ran this fire did it the way they did. Those phone records in the hands of certain of the widows and others need to be read and I am certain they are hoping that someone will bother to get them to see who was communicating with Marsh and Steed and when, etc. and why that Willis said they had lost communication immediately after Marsh or Steed said they were safe in the black. What about Hall’s records, Willis’s records and every boss that had any thing to do with the Yarnell fire–who, when and under oath what were they saying. You can bet there will be a lot of 5th amendment testimony.
I would still like to know why investigators never contacted Joy to find out about those photos of quads at the fire on Friday–actual photos that exist. Are these something that will be in one of the books and being skirted at this time for monetary reasons? Sad we do not have the Gary Olsen’, WTKT, Powers, Marti’s, Ted Putnam’s and people of such ilk on this tragedy–right here in Yarnell on the ground looking into these things– Tell me why the sheriff department, the officials of the fire department on this Yarnell fire tragedy would refuse one of the leading fire death investigators from being admitted to the area or shown the way they went. You would think that they would want that man’s opinion and ideas considering he had 11 years of smoke jumping and firefighting experience to go along with his expertise from past investigations in such incidents. What the hell was in their minds to refuse him?\
I understand that you can’t have 20 men working together and have independent thinkers who would disobey orders that might do others harm. But dropping off into a tangled up maze of manzanita had nothing to do with harming anyone but those who dropped off into that steep box canyon. There is where at least someone with a lick of sense would have balked. Something in the human factor has to be considered here–and I believe it has to start at the very top–was that Roy Hall? Who is next and who after all was right above Marsh and Steed? Did they disobey superiors? I think not, in fact — someone was asking Marsh or Steed to drop down to Yarnell and that Helms was the shortest but most dangerous route and a sure killer if that wind changed–something those men had to know since I knew it and am not the least bit educated in fire fighting methods. The old mayor Kuydendall said common sense goes a long ways.
That they knew, yet what human factors caused them to fail? It was hot and they were indeed tired and overworked. But then consider my age at 71 and that Joy and I had struggled through that manzanita, brambles, catclaw and dead brush at the very place they died earlier that morning. It took us about 3 hours to cross only about a mile of that mess. We were often backtracking to find another way around the dense maze of manzanita and often on our bellies crawling under dense brush to get through. Granted, Marsh would have beat our time, maybe by 2/3’s considering how I saw him going up that mountain like a jack rabbit. Whew he was in shape but those fellows he had command of that day looked bushed when we passed them on our way south about 9:30. So they went meekly to their deaths? Why when before them at the very spot they went down Joy and I argued and you could not have gotten me down there for any reason-yet an hour later with the fire even more progressed they did it? There has to be plenty of convincing to get someone to do that. Joy told me later that maybe a bear or mountain lion blocked them. Not 19 men I replied. A flying saucer had unloaded an army perhaps and forced them down or shot them with a mind controlling frequency that confused them–or more likely they were tired and listened to orders without to much attention to their own safety. I have to believe there were some bosses involved here and even above Marsh and Steed and they are hoping Donut will stay in the lime light.
Yes bosses, I saw it once in a mining job that I quit while 6 others stayed on and got caught back in a mine– but the boss said it was safe, still I was the only one to pick up my check– but mine jobs are easy to replace, miners are hard to find and you can always tramp a mine to get another the next day. Maybe those fellows were worried and had permanent homes– the human factor caught them.
Here’s a direct link to the article…
AZCENTRAL
Article Title: Yarnell Fire survivor gets book deal amid controversy
Published: 6:55 a.m. MST April 21, 2015
http://www.azcentral.com/story/news/local/arizona/2015/04/21/yarnell-fire-survivor-gets-book-deal-amid-legal-strife/26110225/
From the article….
—————————————————————
A Prescott wildfire lookout who lived through the deadly Yarnell Hill blaze of 2013 signed a book deal at about the same time his sworn testimony was canceled based on concerns from his therapist that a deposition would jeopardize his treatment for post-traumatic stress.
Former Granite Mountain Hotshots member Brendan McDonough has been working with best-selling author Stephan Talty to produce a book that, according to online promotional materials, will reveal “the untold story from the lone survivor of the Yarnell Hill Fire.”
McDonough, who has retained a private attorney and an agent, barely escaped flames that killed 19 fellow hotshots June 30, 2013. Reached by phone Monday, he declined to explain why his treatment precluded sworn testimony but did not prevent participation in a book. He referred calls to his legal representative and his agent.
—————————————————————
Brendan is functioning like a true ‘celebrity’ now.
All calls being referred to his ‘lawyer’ and his ‘agent’.
Something tells me that when ALJ Judge Michael A. Mosesso gets wind of this… he’s going to change his mind about how he doesn’t normally like to issue subpoenas for depositions.
By the way… Stephan Talty happens to be the co-author of the book that was turned into the ‘Captain Philips’ movie starring Tom Hanks.
Interestingly enough, there is now a later version of the same story, published by USAToday. Just a slight bit different.
Yarnell fire survivor gets book deal amid legal strife
Dennis Wagner, Yvonne Wingett Sanchez and Robert Anglen, The Arizona Republic 10:39 a.m. EDT April 21, 2015
http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2015/04/21/yarnell-fire-survivor-book-deal/26118665/
It has some links in it, including one to the original AZCentral article and one to the Publishers Marketplace site.
It also leaves out this sentence:
“McDonough’s lawyer in the ADOSH case, David M. Shapiro, said he was not aware of the book deal and could not comment on it.”
Both stories continue the bias that:
“The division The Arizona Division of Occupational Safety and Health, which is charged with finding the truth about on-the-job accidents, has sought to delay or prevent McDonough’s deposition.”
Which, as you have corrected me on, WTKTT, is “true,” but only by about three molecules.
>> Marti said…
>>
>> Both stories continue the bias that:
>> “The division The Arizona Division of Occupational Safety and
>> Health, which is charged with finding the truth about on-the-job
>> accidents, has sought to delay or prevent McDonough’s deposition.”
>>
>> Which, as you have corrected me on, WTKTT, is “true,” but only by
>> about three molecules.
Yes…. and in case anyone is ‘still scratching their head’ over this stupid statement that keeps popping up like a wine cork in MSM articles… here’s the ‘411 skinny’ on that again.
ADOSH was NEVER ‘objecting’ to or trying to ‘prevent’ Brendan McDonough’s under-oath deposition. The ONLY thing ADOSH did was ask Judge Mosesso to move it from November 26, 2014 to about two weeks later, right after December 13, 2014.
Why?… because December 13, 2014 was already the day that ADOSH and ‘Arizona Forestry’ where scheduled to do a ‘document exchange’ as part of the ongoing ‘discovery’ process in the case.
ADOSH just thought waiting until AFTER that document exchange would increase the chances of a BETTER interview with McDonough and a BETTER cross-examination. Some of the testimony/information in that December 13 ‘exchange’ might actually create even MORE questions that, perhaps, only Brendan can answer… so why not just wat the extra 2 weeks and depose him AFTER that document exchange?
That’s all there was to that… but the MSM ( Mainstream Media ) just LOVES to report about ‘conflict’ and ‘drama’… so they jumped all over this like it was some huge bone of contention between the ‘Arizona Forestry’ and the DOSH lawyers.
It wasn’t. Never was. Isn’t now.
ADOSH basicically couldn’t care less if Brendan is deposed at this point, or not. ADOSH has already told Judge Mosesso they don’t think anything Brendan has to say is going to change or mitigate their original findings and citations in any way.
For Brendan to actually supply even MORE evidence that fire management was making negligent and ill-informed decisions there in Yarnell that weekend is just going to be more ‘piling on’ to the evidence that is ALREADY ‘out there’.
Thank you for writing this.
For the record.
And there is also now an editorial in AZCentral, by EJ Montini.
“Smoldering doubts over Yarnell hotshot’s book deal”
http://www.azcentral.com/story/ejmontini/2015/04/21/yarnell-hill-fire-brendan-mcdonough-stephan-talty-book-deal/26117765/
He’s basically saying it’s OK for Brendan to “make money” off of his story, as people do.
However, he seems to be missing the point that, in context, Brendan could be continuing to get himself into even more trouble than he is already in, it seems to me.
And doesn’t it seem a bit strange that, as this thing seems to have been going on for some time, his lawyer is saying he didn’t know anything about it?
>> Marti said…
>>
>> And doesn’t it seem a bit strange that, as this thing seems
>> to have been going on for some time, his lawyer is saying
>> he didn’t know anything about it?
It’s perfectly possible he ( Mr. David Shapiro ) did NOT know about it.
It’s also perfectly possible we are going to end up discovering that Brendan McDonough has always been ‘playing’ everyone ‘like a violin’.
It is still about HIS agenda… and how HE wants to ‘control’ the narrative, and what HE wants to ‘get out of it’.
You wrote:
“It is still about HIS agenda… and how HE wants to ‘control’ the narrative, and what HE wants to ‘get out of it’.”
I’ve been SO going back and forth about that, as you obviously know, by know.
I keep thinking he’s just being jacked around by all the “other interested parties,” who are exploiting his trauma.
This could still fit in to that context.
(By the way, I still haven’t “contacted” Doug…..it’s the awkwardness thing. This morning before I stumbled on all of this, my thinking was, Doug is smart enough and “experienced” enough (in all this trauma/PTSD/Survivor’s Guilt stuff to be capable of “seeing” what’s going on with Brendan in all this drama, so I’ll just stay out of his relationship to it…..)
On the other hand, maybe you’re right, and it all IS Brendan’s agenda, and ALL his agenda, at play.
It’s still really hard for me to tell whether he’s the VICTIM in this or the PLAYA.
Regardless of whether EJMontini thinks Brendan is justified in making $$$$$ off of his story, at this point NOBODY is going to either BELIEVE him or TRUST him on ANYTHING ever again, imho.
Sorry for my various typos here and there. It’s cold in Burque and my hands are freezing.
>> Marti said…
>>
>> It’s still really hard for me to tell whether he’s the VICTIM
>> in this or the PLAYA.
He actually could STILL be BOTH.
In other words… I don’t think Brendan was alone in NOT wanting the whole truth to come out in the beginning… but when others around him realized that he was ‘onboard’ with that idea already…. they just sat back and let him be both VICTIM and PLAYA.
They KNEW that NOT telling the truth wouldn’t be good for Brendan in the long run… but as long as that was giving them what THEY wanted they ‘kept their mouths shut’.
So in that sense ( of not receiving proper legal advice early on )… Brendan was as much a VICTIM as a PLAYA.
I think he still has some pretty twisted ideas in his head about some need to ‘protect his brothers’, or something.
Protect them from WHAT… we’re not sure.
That’s just part of the whole mental thing going on with Brendan and how he may still be vacillating between VICTIM and PLAYA.
If it was just ‘an accident’… ( as he has always said he is sure it was ) then there has NEVER been an need to protect anyone FROM anything. Period. End of story.
My take is he drifted before GM, was always a sucker for peer pressure both negative and positive, and isn’t consciously manipulating anything. However, openly testifying to conduct that could be perceived as reckless, while it could help the victim’s families get just compensation for their losses, could be felt by him to be a betrayal. At the risk of seeming callous, I would also say that to the extent that he presents as a victim there are a lot of hidden compensations for that status in today’s world. It can be hard to walk away voluntarily from that treatment. So that’s not manipulation but definitely a temptation. The book will sell better if he’s still a victim.
Problem with this game on both VICTIMS/PLAYAS sides, it seems to me, is that I’m having a hard time imagining that book coming out after he has had to testify, either in a closed room with Mossaso, or an open courtroom with TV cameras.
Unless I’m missing something.
Kyle Dickman’s coming out with what I think is the first major book on the Yarnell Fire in May. He’s a major pro, has written a lot already about the fire, was once a hotshot himself, and it took HIM almost two years to get HIS book done.
Yes. Even as ‘confusing’ as all this is… you are absolutely right to remind us that there basically now HAS to be those kind of ‘background considerations’ on the part of an actual ‘publisher’.
In other words… it’s pretty hard to launch a marketing campaign that you’ve worked hard on which advertises a product as a “tell all” tome… when “what all is being told” is already common knowledge before you actually PUBLISH.
Marketing people really hate it when THAT happens. No question.
So there really MUST be an actual ‘monetary incentive’ component involved here now.
Maybe not even on Brendan’s part… but certainly on the Publisher’s part.
If they ‘signed the deal’ months ago ( as today’s information has said )… then were they ( the publishers and this famous author guy ) just as blind-sided by City Attorney Jon Paladini pulling his own little “tell all” preemptive strike?
Where they slamming their fists on their desks when Paladini’s story hit the wires…
…or were they ‘rubbing their hands together’?
Two different things you can do with your hands.
It’s hard to say… but I unless Jon Paladini is ‘on their payroll’ and participating in some kind of bizarre marketing campaign… ( NOT likely ) I have to imagine Brendan’s actual publisher and that famous author were PISSED at the ‘information’ that Paladini suddenly leaked.
When your marketing people are ready to go with the “TELL-ALL-TOME” campaign… it’s hard to have to tell them they might have to dial-it-back to the “CONFIRM-WHAT-EVERYONE-ALREADY KNOWS-TOME”. Not nearly as ‘exciting’ ( or profitable? ).
And, yeah, I agree it’s probably some combination.
But I think a lot of people are getting really tired of this thing, whatever it is.
WTKTT,
Knowing now (that he has known all along) that it really wasn’t an “accident”, I think he is headed for some really rough waters ahead.
I have in the past stated that I thought we should give Brendan the benefit of the doubt for his actions occurring within 1 to 1 1/2 years of the YHF. I listed several reasons such as possible PTSD, Brendan having received potentially suspect advice at a time when he was most vulnerable, along with the desire to protect some, or all of the names of his deceased brothers.
I still think that benefit of the doubt is warranted for THAT SPECIFIC TIME PERIOD, but it ended at the point in time he confided the truth to some, but not the families and the public-at-large.
The book announcement has put him in a huge pickle. He can’t finish the book until the court cases that he might have to testify in under oath are completed (which may take years). Otherwise, his testimony under oath including examination and cross may conflict with statements in the book.
And I doubt we’ll see anything in the book about “accident” or “hillbilly”.
I am positive that Brendan AND his attorney, are both wishing that that ‘announcement’ had not been made at this time, and in fact, had been put off until such time that all this other brouhaha had died down a bit.
There is absolutely nothing about this announcement that benefits Brendan or his attorneys efforts (or his possible disability claim with the City). If anything, it puts Brendan in a much worse light than his was in, even yesterday. It almost seems like it was done without either one’s knowledge, and the article confirms that fact for his attorney.
The ONLY benefit from this announcement is that the publisher has created an early buzz for the project. To me, it seems that it came at the expense of putting much more pressure on Brendan, with possible additional damage to his reputation.
It’s quite possible that the book deal is just another outsiders attempt to make money, using Brendan and the tragedy as the vehicle. What may have sounded like a good thing to Brendan at the time, may be one more thing in that long list that have come back to bite him.
I’m wondering. Did he have some sort of self-reconning way back in October? One that could have presented itself along the lines of, ‘Wait a minute, I can’t tell the truth in my book if I’ve never told anybody else the truth. That won’t play well’.
self-“reckoning”
You wrote:
“I am positive that Brendan AND his attorney, are both wishing that that ‘announcement’ had not been made at this time, and in fact, had been put off until such time that all this other brouhaha had died down a bit.”
I think you might be on to something here.
The possibility that “word got out” without Brendan even knowing about it.
Which would make more sense than if HE had made it public.
I tried to find that announcement on that “Publishers Marketplace” site, but you can’t access it unless you are a paid member.
Because what you wrote made me wonder, how, indeed, did this thing “break.”
I would be willing to bet ArizonaRepublic/AZCentral IS a paid member of Publishers Marketplace.
I’m thinking the way this “broke” was that somebody at AZCentral noticed it and then got one of the three writers of that article to call the “Los Angeles-based agent Steve Fisher.”
The AZCentral article says:
“In an interview last week, Los Angeles-based agent Steve Fisher confirmed that a book is in the offing.
“I suggested to Brendan that he should tell his story in book form, and he agreed and I arranged that for him,” Fisher said Friday. The narrative, he added, will focus on events leading “up to and after the fire and his efforts to help firefighter families.”
Fisher said the contract is with Hachette Book Group, and McDonough’s account will be written by Talty. The agreement was arranged several months ago, Fisher said, and the project is in early stages. Fisher would not discuss payment or any other details about the contract.
Talty said in an e-mail he will not talk about the book until it is published.”
This is in a paragraph BELOW the one which says:
“…Reached by phone Monday, he declined to explain why his treatment precluded sworn testimony but did not prevent participation in a book. He referred calls to his legal representative and his agent.”
I think, all things considered, it might just be the case that the next thing we will read about is that Brendan has fired this agent.
Because this story ain’t buying him any friends. Or time. I think Brendan got broadsided on this one.
Hopefully he’s learning something. I wouldn’t bank on it though.
And, also, yesterday, this was published on “Insurance Journal”:
Settlement Talks Continue in Arizona Wildfire Wrongful Death Case
April 20, 2015
http://www.insurancejournal.com/news/west/2015/04/20/365066.htm
“Parties in a wrongful-death lawsuit stemming from the 2013 Yarnell Hill Fire say they need more time to discuss a settlement.
Lawyers for the sides told a U.S. District Court judge on Friday that they’re working in good faith to resolve the case. They requested that it be put on hold until May 27.”
“The lawyers say they expect to reconvene settlement talks next month. They say talks have been complicated by a separate but related case that imposed fines and citations on the state Forestry Division.”
Notice that it says NOTHING about HOW ( or in WHAT way ) the ‘wrongful death’ settlements are being ‘complicated’ by the “Arizona Forestry vs. ADOSH” proceedings.
The ‘complication’ could actually be nothing more than this attempt to get the TRUTH out of Brendan McDonough.
This plays into/out of that whole thing where ADF is trying to get ADOSH to drop the citation related to Brendan being endangered by/via his Lookout Assignment by saying it would be oh so much less expensive and complicated and oh so much less TRAUMATIC for Brendan to NOT have to testify about that (via citing a STATUTE that has been REPEALED and so nobody is buying that game)……
……While at the SAME TIME pushing and prodding to get the judge to order him to be subpoenaed, even as the judge sees no reason and has no precedent to do so.
But I guess this is just another typical day in what lawyers do……………….
You wrote:
“Something tells me that when ALJ Judge Michael A. Mosesso gets wind of this… he’s going to change his mind about how he doesn’t normally like to issue subpoenas for depositions.”
My first thought was “Agree. *Buys More Popcorn*”
On the other hand, maybe not?
I’m thinking about how, when the “breaking news” about Brendan’s “new revelations” SEEMED to appear to be news in ADF’s favor, as we picked it all apart, we realized it might NOT be, ALL things considered.
This may be also more damaging to ADF than anybody else. THEY’RE the ones that REALLY REALLY want Brendan to “tell all” before they can fully have a strategy for negotiations in the “global mediation.”
It may be that, as has been the case all along, ADOSH and the Judge maybe could care less because it doesn’t really change their findings, especially enough to waste more time and $$$$$ than necessary on it.
I also find it interesting that as you and Bob Powers were perusing the newest filings, the appearance of what you were finding was that the battle was still drawn and blazing between the ADOSH/ADF lawyers and no “good faith” “mediation” looked possible; while the Insurance Journal article I posted above made it sound like both sides (families vis ADF with ADOSH somewhere at the table but we don’t know exactly “where”) were presenting to THAT Judge that the mediation was proceeding quite smoothly and successfully, but they just needed another month to kinda sorta “smooth out” their differences.
Given all of this, I don’t think it’s ALL that inevitable that Mosesso would necessarily decide to jump in and do ADF’s bidding, as he hasn’t all along.
Especially given how, as we have seen, ADF’s lawyers have been operating TOTALLY not “in good faith” all along.
ADOSH/Mosesso, it seems to me, still have NOTHING to lose to just let ADF continue to hang itself.
>> Marti said…
>>
>> ADOSH/Mosesso, it seems to me, still have NOTHING to lose
>> to just let ADF continue to hang itself.
That’s true…. but let me correct something here.
You make it sound like the “Arizona Forestry vs. ADOSH” case is all about ADOSH/Mosesso against ‘Arizona Forestry’.
That is NOT The case. Judge Michael A. Mosesso is the Arizona Administrative Law Judge that has been assigned to this “Arizona Forestry vs. ADOSH Citations” case… but he has no “dog in the hunt”.
He is not ‘affiliated’ with EITHER ADOSH or ‘Arizona Forestry’.
He is just the Judge that will be presiding over the eventual HEARING in this case ( and not a TRIAL or anything like that ) and he will making the actual decision ( himself, no jury ) about the validity of the original ADOSH fines and citations.
It is ADOSH alone that really could care less about what Brendan McDonough has to say, at this point.
ADOSH has been telling Judge Mosesso all along that they believe their Citations and fines, as already issued, will stand up to scrutiny as valid regardless of whether Brendan supplies any additional ‘testimony’, at this pont, which he should have done in the first place.
For there to be even MORE evidence that there was ‘negligence’ taking place at the management level that day would really just be ‘piling on’, as far as the ADOSH Citations are concerned.
There was plenty of evidence of that kind of chaos and mis-management and bad decision making going on that ENTIRE weekend without needing any additional ‘testimony’ from Brendan.
ADOSH is only allowed to issue a certain MAXIMUM amount of penalties to any one employer for any one incident… and ADOSH was ‘pegging the meter’ on the ‘Yarnell Hill Fire’ even before they finished their first round of interviews. It really is a miracle that MORE people didn’t die that day.
I totally agree with what you are saying here, and have been interpreting this in that way.
Which is why I am contemplating/asking/wondering if any of THIS act in this play changes anything in Mosseso’s position. And I’m thinking maybe it doesn’t.
It’s just more drama.
Or do you think it does change his thinking?
Reply to Marti Reed post on April 21, 2015 at 10:57 am
>> Marti said…
>>
>> Which is why I am contemplating/asking/wondering if
>> any of THIS act in this play changes anything in Mosseso’s
>> position. And I’m thinking maybe it doesn’t.
>>
>> Or do you think it does change his thinking?
It’s always hard to say how any Judge is going to react to discovering that a key witness in a case over which he/she happens to be presiding is discovered to be ‘jerking off’ the attorneys.
Don’t forget… Judges can issues “Orders to Appear” for just about ANY reason… even if they just want to hear something from your own lips and not filtered through therapists or attorneys.
They can also issue ‘contempt of court’ citations for any number of reasons… if they feel there really is blatant ‘contempt’ for the court proceedings taking place on anyone’s part… such as ( perhaps ) lying your way out of scheduled depositions and whatnot.
This whole this is seeming to go to ‘crazy town’ in such a hurry then nothing would surprise me at this point.
Judge Mosesso might feel the need to ‘jump in’ here and start issuing subpoenas… or he might not.
One thing you can be sure of… this isn’t your momma’s ADOSH citation hearing going on. This one is fast going ‘off the reservation’ and I don’t think either the Judge or the Attorneys for either side were quite prepared for the complete array of shenanigans here coming from Mr. Brendan McDonough.
I think it’s already at the point where everyone is just ‘making it up as they go along’ and no one really knows what is going to happen next.
Gotcha!
You wrote:
“I think it’s already at the point where everyone is just ‘making it up as they go along’ and no one really knows what is going to happen next.”
Which might be, all things considered (including all the crappola ADF’s lawyers are handing out), exactly the reason Judge Mosesso might actually be considering calling a halt to all this WASTEFULLY expensive legal/whatever drama and just issuing a friggin subpoena to Brendan to just testify under oath (without cameras).
Even though that isn’t his NORMAL standard operating procedure.
Just get it over with, already.
That won’t preclude Brendan being ALSO subpoenaed to testify again UNDER OATH (and in front of TV cameras) in the wrongful death lawsuits, if and when, because of what we are seeing as ADF’s NOT-IN-GOOD-FAITH manipulations vis-a-vis the ADOSH citations, the “global mediation” process breaks down, and the whole dang thing winds up in court.
Which is, according to what we are seeing, where it seems to be headed.
So what I just wrote above may be the “answer” to the question in what I wrote:
“…..if any of THIS act in this play changes anything in Mosseso’s position.”
And, in case anybody reading/writing here is on Twitter, I’m indebted to WildFireOps @WildFire_Ops for posting all of these stories. They’re following Prescott Wildfire stories closely.
Hah!
Now the story’s on Wildfire Today!
“Yarnell Hill Fire survivor gets book deal”
http://wildfiretoday.com/2015/04/21/yarnell-hill-fire-survivor-gets-book-deal/
“The only survivor of the Granite Mountain Hotshots’ tragedy during the 2013 Yarnell Hill Fire in Arizona has signed a book deal with a best-selling author. Brendan McDonough was serving as a lookout when the other 19 members of his crew were entrapped by the fire and killed.”
That might elicit some interesting comments!
So let me get this straight, he won’t tell his side of the story to a lawyer or judge, in court, as he suffers from PTSD and it would be too tough on him….but he is willing to sit and relive the whole shootin match with an author, to write a book about it..
I am confused… Isn’t testifying in court, and having a transcript done, in all reality, the same as writing a book???
Oh wait, you don’t get royalties from court testimony.. My bad..
You wrote:
“Isn’t testifying in court, and having a transcript done, in all reality, the same as writing a book???”
Actually, no, it’s not.
LOL! As I”m sure you know.
He’s GUARANTEEING he’s gonna have to testify in some kind of court, imho.
One way, or the other.
In a closed hearing with Mosseso, or an open one in front of TV cameras, if his stalling is the biggest reason they’re having to keep delaying the “settlement” process.
If someone’s telling him this is his “get out of ‘jail’ free” card, they and he may be sorely mistaken, it seems to me.
Oh my.
Where is my Angostura aromatic bitters?
I need some serious settling to my stomache…indeed.
This is very rough news to me.
Be right back…I have to throw up!
Shew, rough news here Bob Powers.
I hope Brendan in this new book is detailed to not just that final hours which with all the busy ways to that final hours he is “crystal clear” what he places out in the world as “his” testimony or account and remembers -GOD HAS THE PLAN- and that this public has been fed enough narratives already…PURITY WELCOMED ONLY!
I hope the realism cores to the beginning of the day on 6-30-13 when changing at the crew buggies off Sesame Street area and Brendan mentions the one man who was having radio concerns from the start and I really hope Brendan speaks about his pure demeanor that very morning and how the other men were interacting with his mood. I hope he talks about “how” he became the lookout for that Yarnell Hill Fire versus another person. I hope he talks about the ridge he was on and the lookout spot— we know what he was doing on the ridge and the lookout. I hope when he writes the book he has it engrained that 2 track ridge moment that aired over the radios and where a lady dispatcher is not in SAIR/OSHA reports nor ever interviewed. I hope Brendan realizes at some point each and every person has to meet our Maker and that I am sickened already over the people who have come to the hikers to share yet have not yet to investigators.
I am very very sad. This world is ridiculous,.
Terrible news for me personally to hear that this young man has decided to make the first account be shown in a book deal versus just coming out when SOOOOOO many lives were lost and SOOOOOO many lives this has affected…what a true shame.
Yet the only thing Sonny said was …Money talks and bullshit walks…
I have to let this media news sink in…is it hearsay or facts?
Where will the book go in the library?????
Fiction or non-fiction?????
Wait to see, I guess
If it ever gets actually published.
All things considered.
Joy:
I have to admit I LOLLED when I read this:
“Where is my Angostura aromatic bitters?”
But seriously.
I’m not quite sure what you mean by this:
“I hope the realism cores to the beginning of the day on 6-30-13 when changing at the crew buggies off Sesame Street area and Brendan mentions the one man who was having radio concerns from the start”
Are you talking about Rance Marquez, who is the only one who seems to have been having trouble with that?
And you say this:
“I hope he talks about “how” he became the lookout for that Yarnell Hill Fire versus another person.”
Absolutely!!!!!
EVERYTHING I have read/watched/heard says that a Lookout needs to be an EXPERIENCED (even to the level of a squad boss) wildland firefighter, completely on top of his/her game, who has enough authority to be able to even, if necessary, challenge decisions that are being contemplated by the Captain/Supervisor.
Sometimes, even, that Lookout is “elevated” to be a Division Lookout.
I totally don’t understand this decision.
To the extent that, it seems to me, a REAL Lookout would have, even if evacuated the way Brendan was, would STILL have understood the importance of continuing to keep track of both the SITUATION (even to the extent of driving to the Ranch House Restaurant, or even the Yarnell Fire Department, where he could have continued to keep his eyes on both the fire and the crew) and the location of the crew.
What is this deal about Granite Mountain choosing to designate their Lookout on the basis, seemingly, of his not really being quite “up to it” on the fireline that day?????
This has ALWAYS bugged me.
You wrote:
“I hope when he writes the book he has it engrained that 2 track ridge moment that aired over the radios and where a lady dispatcher is not in SAIR/OSHA reports nor ever interviewed. ”
I’m not exactly sure what you are referring to here, but I do know that you have periodically mentioned this dispatcher being silenced.
You said:
“Terrible news for me personally to hear that this young man has decided to make the first account be shown in a book deal versus just coming out when SOOOOOO many lives were lost and SOOOOOO many lives this has affected…what a true shame.”
See what we’ve been discussing above along the lines that Brendan (or his publishing “handlers”) may THINK he can just make the first account be in a book deal, but that dog ain’t gonna hunt, all things considered.
You wrote”
“is it hearsay or facts?”
I think it’s facts, at this point.
I thinks it’s a possibility, however, that it won’t stay “facts” for very long.
See what I wrote above about how it appears he may have been recruited into this “book deal,” and the deal was announced on that Publishers Marketplace website, at which point AZCentral decided to interview the agent, and then VOILA we now have what we now have.
The fruit-basket has been seriously upset.
EVENTUALLY, the TRUTH of this fire is going to emerge. It has to.
As you say, In God’s time. I’m not a major believer in what most Americans call “God.” On the other hand, I DO believe the Universe is intelligent, and, as Martin Luther King Jr. said, the arc of it bends toward justice.
As long as we HUMANS (as in all the recent PUSHES in the direction of truth and accountability regarding Police Brutality indicate) keep staying “AWOKE” and unwavering.
Which is EXACTLY what you and Sonny have been doing along.
And so I thank you, in general, and, specifically, for writing this post.
Back to the legal mumbo-jumbo a bunch more papers filed yesterday in the on going ADOSH –STATE legal disputes——-I did not note any thing earth shattering but I got a head ache trying
to read through it last night and gave up.
Still reading those myself and yes… it’s back to ‘mumbo jumbo’ while they try and work out some of these legal ‘issues’ and ‘points of order’ that have been laying on the table since BEFORE the ‘global mediation’ talks.
The key ‘takeaway’ is that they are, in fact, now RETURNING to filing more documents and trying to ‘work out’ some of these previous issues that went ‘on hold’ before the global mediation. ADOSH had said a few months ago that they didn’t feel it was even necessary to get ‘down in the weeds’ and spend any ‘billable hours’ on any of this stuff until after the March 2, 3 ‘global mediation’ sessions took place.
If things looked like they might ‘settle’… then all this ‘mumbo jumbo’ we are seeing now wasn’t even going to be necessary.
So what it appearing now in these documents means it really is “full steam ahead” and there isn’t going to be any kind of “settlement” in at least this “Arizona Forestry vs. ADOSH” case.
I also don’t see anything new regarding Brendan McDonough or his (supposed) PTSD diagnosis or anything about his ‘therapist’ and if/when a new deposition might be scheduled.
This last update really is nothing but the ‘mumbo jumbo’ of lawyers in the middle of a ‘discovery’ exchange both trying to force the other side to release more ‘evidence’ and ‘information’ than they really want to.
Gary said
Does anybody have any questions as to why my plan back in the day would have been to drop back to the next drainage and backfire the entire fucking valley?
Why do you think that is NOT what the GMIHC were doing?
It seems that was the plan being implemented by Cordes as he was sending Ball and Hernandez(?) near Glen Isla to scout for a place to push a dozer line?
So, are you you saying that you would have made the same move as GM, just earlier in the day?
Apologies if I am not misinterpreting, or just fail to understand.
I guess I didn’t make myself clear. If I would have been leading the Granite Mountain Hotshots and somebody insisted I do something, I would have opted for pulling back to state highway 89 and backfiring the Weaver Mountains, which would have included Yarnell and the surrounding communities filled with non defensible structures and people who had done little or nothing to save themselves or their property.
But since that idea would have been impractical and is merely a manifestation of my caustic, angry and sarcastic opinion of Yarnell and the Yarnell Hill Fire, in reality, I would have simply kicked back in the black and waited with my HAND CREW for the firestorm to pass before I thought about leaving the black at which time I would have radioed command to ask somebody in charge what they would like our next objective to be. And then given how chaotic the fire was, I would have evaluated those instructions carefully before committing my crew to that course of action.
Which brings up another point I am pretty sure I have made in the past. The Yarnell Hill Fire was an extreme example of chaos but one of the dirty little secrets of wildland firefighting is the first 36 to 48 hours on just about every fire is chaotic and that is where hotshot crews are supposed to excel.
Fire commanders can put hotshots out in that type of environment and have every expectation those crews will adapt and overcome while they remain self sufficient requiring little or no oversight from what is typically a fire team that is stretched thin and faced with multiple problems they need to overcome before they get down in the weeds with specific instructions for a hotshot crew.
Command should be able to give a hotshot crew general guidelines (i.e. anchor the west flank) and have every right to go on about a thousand other tasks while remaining confident that hotshot crew is working hard and safely on the western flank of the fire to stop its spread in that direction.
And I don’t think this is Monday morning armchair quarterbacking on my part. I think that WTKTT’s fade in and out Goggle Earth video made it crystal clear to everyone that standing at the top of that chute looking down into a valley as it was being consumed by a fiercely wind driven fire storm with a very impressive pyroclastic cloud towering over everything and then making a decision to descend into that chute was truly an inexplicable choice. Just ask Sonny, he took one look at the firestorm and he went quickly in the opposite direction and he had never been to any fire training or have any previous experience.
The more I learn about the Yarnell Hill Fire, the more I realize it had nothing in common with the other three hotshot fatality fires. But all three of those other fires (Loop, Battlement Creek, South Canyon) shared all of the important factors as commonalities.
Calvin
I do not know if Cordes really had a plan but it just dose not seem likely.
Nor do I believe that Marsh moved the crew to re-engage.
I can say from a Certified Back Firing specialist which I was on a California team
There are few criteria to meet if you plan such a strategy—–
1. There was no formal strategy.
2. The Timing was to late when the crew moved and would have been to late by 1200.
3. The fire weather forecast was way out side of a successful Back fire.
Not only the forecast but the current weather on the fire low humidity’s, high temp., squarely winds by 1500.
4. No line built and secure to fire from, with out endangering structures.
It would have taken a full 8 hour shift to build a line to backfire from with a cat and crew it was just to late to consider that option.
5. Not enough resources available that were not engaged with other assignments.
Almost all Back Fires are done at night when the weather is favorable the line is built and identified and the wind is in you favor. It take’s a lot of man power Engines and burning equipment. Safety for your firing crews and also no structures can be threatened.
Liability is a bitch when it comes to intentionally burning structures.
A back fire would not have meet the criteria to safely accomplish any objective on the south or east side of the fire.
As for the crew had they made the BSR they would have been stuck there for some time until they could walk out or get vehicles to haul them out.
There was no re-engage for a hand crew from 1600 on……
And we were lucky a Engine crew was not trapped and burned over as well trying to get to BSR.
In my opinion that is exactly why GM made the move from the safe black. Someone was intending a last ditch effort or “hail mary pass” when everything started going south. I know Bob and I differ on this, but I have seen it done a number of times under less than “text book” conditions. Some times it has worked and some times not, but I believe it was felt that was the only option left (I know conditions, timing and resources were not ideal) to divert the fire from non defendable structures . Knowing that the timing was crucial someone (don’t remember if they were identified or not) asked if they could get here faster, that’s when Marsh replied that they were coming from the heel of the fire. In my mind this is the only reason you would want a “Hotshot” crew to hustle down to the interface.
Don’t get me wrong – this in no means justifies the move from the safe black, but in my opinion is the only explanation for the move. Again, not justification by any means!
While only another possible reason to move I look at the time of day the location of the crew and the possibility of being stuck on the mountain for 3 plus hours.
We have no reason or request for the crew to move in any of the testimony so along with an option that they were moving to re-engage
is the also possibility of just getting off the mountain so they could tie into there vehicles.
1. The only thing said was they were moving to a Safety Zone.
2. No mention of moving to a new assignment. at the time Ball and the Cat moved it was already to late to build Cat line. The fire was already into Glen Isla based on WTKTT fade video by or before 1620.
3 The hurry up statement has never been directly tied to GM
and could be some one else talking to another person.
We still have some need for clarification.
And you are right there is no Identity of the person who made that statement. or nothing in the statements to indicate who made it or to who. That if said to GM should have been noted by some one.
My thoughts over the past 2 years. McDonough should have the answer if he herd the discussion there had to be a reason to move to the BSR????????????
What ever the reason they fail to provide for safety.
All good points Bob but I still don’t get it.
1. Moving to a Safe area, they were in the best safe area of anyone. To have an alleged argument about moving to a different safe area doesn’t make any sense.
2. No mention of moving to a new assignment, but really no mention of moving at all other than a safe area. But here I go talking myself out of my theory, if they were really moving to reengage why not have your buggies bumped to BSR to resupply and then transport to the new assignment?
3. Although this is not verified, I don’t know who else would have been coming from the heel of the fire – I think GM was the only one out there.
Yep, as you have said McDonough and others would have the answers. I know we both agree regardless of the reason they should never have left the safest place on the entire incident, until conditions allowed.
I agree with the best safe area out there why move.
What ever Marsh said to get Steed to move must have been acceptable . But wouldn’t Steed have known they were moving if some one asked Marsh to move the crew to re-engage? So just saying some thing dose not fit.
Why move from one Safety Zone to another and expose the crew to real danger. Those have been my questions for 2 years. If there was a plan why hide what you were doing. Talk to AA or OPS get eyes on you and advice at 1600 before committing to the move.
Agree with you on Marsh saying they were moving from the heel of the fire.
Just not sure about the hurry up statement. Was it really part of that discussion??????
Very Frustrating! This whole new wildland firefighting mantra of “being a learning organization/creating a learning culture” blah,blah,blah. People know what transpired on the mountain that day – yet no one is allowed to talk, especially the employees of the organization spouting the “learning culture!” Coming up on two years and the only real investigation has been on this site!
I got stuck in moderation –
So, I know I am not alone here. This is so frustrating! People have the answers but are not allowed to discuss the details of the event. Those employees are from the organization that has adopted the mantra of “a learning organization” yet won’t allow anyone to learn lessons because they won’t allow those involved to speak.. Does not seem like they really buy into their new mantra!
The only real investigation or learning has occurred on this site, although we don’t have all the answers (yet) thank you all for your diligence.
Having worked for the FS I am quite surprised at this new way of stopping employees from talking and redactions of statements. 30 years or even 20 ago that did not happen.
Mainly because the investigation was well done and the failures noted what was violated of the 10 SO and who was involved.
it has turned into a Legal fiasco. Not a learning event.
**
** MORE FROM PROFESSOR DOUG HULMES ABOUT BRENDAN MCDONOUGH
Oddly enough… the ‘Prescott Daily Courier’ has yet to even run even the generic Associated Press article from yesterday about the Lawyers in the ‘wrongful death’ lawsuits asking for yet ANOTHER 30 days to ‘settle’ the lawsuits…
…but they DID run an article YESTERDAY afternoon that features Brendan McDonough and talks more about that ‘Juniper Tree’ and Prescott College Professor Doug Hulmes again.
So this is actually a ‘followup’ to that discussion down below about Hulmes, McDonough and the Juniper tree.
In THIS article… we suddenly get a lot more DETAIL about that accidental ‘meetup’ that Professor Hulmes had out at the Juniper Tree with Brendan McDonough himself.
We NOW learn…
– Brendan was not ‘by himself’ when Hulmes accidentally ran into him a year ago ( in April of 2014 ) out at the tree. Brendan had hiked out there with TWO others ( unidentified ).
– This ‘accidental meetup’ was the FIRST time Brendan had returned to that Juniper tree since the tragedy.
– It was this same Professor Hulmes who, when the Doce fire broke out, notified Prescott National Forest Wilderness and Trails Manager Jason Williams about the Juniper tree… and Williams, in turn, was the one who had asked the Granite Mountain Hotshots if they could try and protect it.
– The GM Hotshots actually first considered cutting all the lower limbs of the tree OFF… but then decided against that and just cleared around it and did some ‘back burns’.
– The GM Hotshots actually LEFT the tree before the fire approached and had no idea if their efforts had succeeded until later.
– The GM Hotshots returned to the tree the NEXT DAY to find they had only partially succeeded. They found the tree SINGED and some flame actually still burning on one of the branches. That is when some of them climbed the tree and doused those flames with their water bottles.
– That SECOND day ( after returning to the tree and dousing the limb fires ) is when that famous ‘Pyramid Photo’ was taken there at the Juniper tree.
– This same Professor Hulmes has invited Brendan McDonough to attend a special ceremony to honor this ‘Juniper Tree’ that is happening this coming week, on April 23, the day before Arbor Day. It will be a public ceremony at the Arizona State Capitol Museum’s historic Senate chambers. There is no word whether Brendan McDonough actually plans to attend.
The Prescott Daily Courier
Article Title: Hotshots tree earns Magnificent 7 honor
Published: Friday, April 17, 2015 – 11:54 PM by Joanna Dodder Nellans
http://dcourier.com/main.asp?SectionID=1&SubSectionID=1&ArticleID=144281&TM=68707.55
From the article…
————————————————————————-
At 10 a.m. on April 23, the day before Arbor Day, a public ceremony at the Arizona State Capitol Museum’s historic Senate chambers will honor the Magnificent 7 trees as well as the Citizen Forester of the Year and communities that gain honors for planting trees. The public is welcome.
Professor Hulmes plans to attend with Joan Dukes, who first introduced him to the alligator juniper that she and others call the Grandfather Juniper. He also has invited (Brendan) McDonough.
————————————————————————-
Copy.
Look for an email.
**
** RESULTS OF LAST YARNELL HILL MEMORIAL BOARD MEETING ( APRIL 10, 2015 )
**
** AUCTION DATE SET – SOUTH HALF OF SECTION 9 APPRAISED AT $304,000
Once again… the Yarnell Hill Memorial Site Board is violating ‘Arizona Open Meeting’ laws and they have NOT published the ‘Draft Minutes’ of their last meeting within 72 hours.
Their last meeting took place a week ago on April 10, 2015.
But an article did appear a few days ago in the Prescott Daily Courier detailing what went on at this April 10 meeting.
The Prescott Daily Courier
Article Title: Public will get to submit designs for Hotshots memorial
Published 4/14/2015 6:02 AM by Joanna Dodder Nellans
http://dcourier.com/main.asp?SectionID=1&SubSectionID=1&ArticleID=144158&TM=68707.55
Highlights from the article…
– The Board is about to ask the PUBLIC to submit designs for the memorial.
– They ARE going to try and purchase all 320 acres comprising the entire South half of Section 9 where the deployment took place.
– NONE of the landowners around the site want to grant any kind of ‘access’ or ‘easement’ so that people can access the site.
– Yarnell Fire Chief Ben Palm has developed an ‘access plan’ throught other ‘State Land’ that involves a TWO MILE hike up STEEP terrain from somewhere down on Highway 89. There is only room for 3 vehicles to pull off Highway 89 at the trailhead. The article has a MAP showing where this ‘hiking trail’ would be. It actually ‘arrives’ up on the ridge at the same point where that ‘alternate escape route’ takes that turn heading to the east towards the Boulder Springs Ranch.
– The land has been valued at $950 per acre with total value $304,000.
– The actual ‘auction’ of the land is scheduled for 11:00 AM, Tuesday, June 30, 2015 on the steps of the Yavapai County Courthouse in Prescott.
And YES… that will be the actual morning of the THIRD anniversary of the tragedy itself… right in the same spot where they held last year’s ‘memorial’ service and will probably do so again this year.
There is still no word as to whether that small group of widows still plans to buy the land for themselves and be able to control access to it as they stated some months ago they intended to do. The recent article is only saying that (quote) “State officials are assuming no one will try to outbid them”.
What is worth noting, however, is that whoever *else* might end up bidding on the land will KNOW that this Yarnell Memorial Board only has a maximum of $500,000 they can use to buy the land.
That will actually make it easy to ‘outbid’ them on June 30, 2015.
The Yarnell Memorial Board won’t be able to match any bid over $500,000.
The article also says the NEXT meeting of this Yarnell Hill Memorial Board is now scheduled for May 29, 2015. Doesn’t say where. Probably the same place as the April 10 meeting ( Yavapai County Supervisor’s Office located in the County Administration Building at 1015 Fair Street in Prescott ).
By the way… some of the PUBLIC comments that have already appeared at the bottom of the article above are pretty weird.
One of them says it’s all just a ‘money making conspiracy’… and the OTHER one actually goes so far as to suggest that any official ‘memorial’ should be in Prescott itself in order to attract more visitors and more business and more money to the City of Prescott.
I kid you not.
Now that’s the Prescott (Everybody’s Hometown) that I know so well!
I noted the post by “Sharon Burke” in the comments on this story. Upon the conversion of the Courier’s commenting system from one that allowed an anonymous post, to the theoretically more accountable Facebook system, this person has appeared on each and every Yarnell related story, posting the most destructive and hateful “smack” possible about the survivors of the “Hotshots.” Given “Sharon’s” adoring remarks about the Kuykendall/Blair/Lamerson troika , that controls the City Council, most assumed “she” was one of the City Employee’s allegedly compelled to post comments as an employment condition in City Hall. After reading the latest installments noted above, it seems that this tragedy has produced an arguably obsessed serial poster out to wound the survivors. Many well meaning people did not understand or agree with the issues pursuant to the PSDRS benefits. Ms. Burke’s comments on this matter demonstrate that whatever concerns she has aired on Yarnell, is accompanied by a rather disturbing private agenda.
Reply to Noel Breen post on April 19, 2015 at 3:58 am
>> Noel Breen says…
>>
>> After reading the latest installments noted above, it seems
>> that this tragedy has produced an arguably obsessed serial
>> poster out to wound the survivors.
From what I can tell… this person seems to comment ( at length ) on EVERY article that the Prescott Daily Courier publishes… but yes… she seems to be SURE to always have some ‘didactic’ comment at the ready for anything related to the City Council or the Granite Mountain related articles.
Sometimes I can’t event tell, by the end of her comment, what point she is even TRYING to make.
She is also very often “almost right” ( but not quite ) with her “For your information” style posts… which can be very confusing.
That, …. along with routinely spewing misinformation somewhere within the majority of her analyses.
One of the worst social media allowances to ever be foisted upon the rest of us was facebook users who post on other sites being designated as “Top Commenters”.
It would be ok if they accepted it for what it really was (a designation for reaching a certain number of over-all posts), but too many of these people (her especially) seem to think it’s some sort of award for their in-depth, knowledgeable, and Pulitzer-worthy commentary, fostering a vicious cycle which never ends and only gets worse over time.
Yeah, she’s a real …………
I’ve actually increadingly had the feeling she’s been reading us. Just enough to dig up enough “facts” to make herself sound like she knows what she’s talking about.
Hey, Noel!!
I live in Albuquerque and went to Prescott College.
Maybe coffee sometime?
Correction for above.
This June 30, 2015 will only be the SECOND anniversary of the Yarnell Hill Fire tragedy, not the THIRD as stated above.
The actual Prescott Daily Courier article has this TYPO as well.
So the paragraph above should have read like this…
And YES… ( the land auction ) will be the actual morning of the SECOND anniversary of the tragedy itself… right in the same spot where they held last year’s ‘memorial’ service and will probably do so again this year.
Oh…and one more thing. Does anybody else see the irony (and that word is SO insufficient in this case) in that ADOSH, who I think we can all agree are the heroes of this story, found that one of primary reasons the Granite Mountain Hotshots died was because the fire team put too much emphasis on protecting property in and around Yarnell and now, those very same landowners will not grant access across their little slices of heaven to enable the public to get to the deployment site? I mean….really???
Does anybody have any questions as to why my plan back in the day would have been to drop back to the next drainage and backfire the entire fucking valley? And failing that…I would have found myself a soft patch of dirt, folded my gloves in half, put them on the top of my hardhat and then placed my head on the gloves and I would have truly enjoyed mother nature’s grand show. I would have watched that entire valley burn and I would never have left the black or broke a sweat.
And I was raised and excelled in a hyper hotshot program on steroids that rewarded those who only followed some of the rules some of the time and our motto was, FIGHT FIRE AGRESSIVELY…but provide for safety first. The actions of the GMHS on the Yarnell Hill Fire would have pegged my “oh…fuck…me…here we go” O’Meter!
I am starting to think the actions of the GMHS were such an anomaly…such an outlier…such a one time only…that the only lesson that can learned from this fire was the one the city of Prescott has already learned…the Granite Mountain Hotshots were a blueprint for disaster…thank God?
But none of that changes how much I grieve for all of them, especially the 18 who didn’t have a vote in what course of action they took. And yes…I am including McDonough on that list. That young man needs some guidance so he can start to turn his life around, I’m afraid this is going to get worse before it get’s better and it’s never going to get much better.
P.S., There is a way to change the system, but the way the GMHS families are going about it will not make any difference or change anything.
And for you old timers out there, the hyper hotshot program on steroids I am talking about was of course…Bill Buck’s Mighty Coconino! You remember HIM don’t you? The Greatest Fire God that ever walked the Earth!
**
** ‘WRONGFUL DEATH’ LAWSUIT ATTORNEYS ASK FOR ANOTHER 30 DAYS
** TO REACH A ‘SETTLEMENT’
Well… sure enough… the “clock ran out” yesterday ( April 17, 2015 ) on that original 30 day extension that was asked for after the March 2 and 3 ‘global mediation’ talks failed in
the ‘wrongful death’ lawsuits.
The attorneys asked the District Court Judge on March 9 for a ’30 day extension’, and he granted that extension on March 17, 2015.
The Arizona Forestry attorneys then had 30 days ( until yesterday ) to reach a ‘settlement’ with the families of the deceased Granite Mountain Hotshots.
Yesterday… they issued the required ‘progress report’ to the Judge… and they are now asking for ANOTHER 30 days to reach a ‘settlement’.
This time, however, they are saying the reason they need more TIME has something to do with the shenanigans going on with the OTHER ‘case’… the “Arizona Forestry vs. ADOSH” proceedings.
The original ‘press release’ yesterday was from the “Associated Press” itself… so this story is obviously all over the MSM ( Mainstream Media ) today.
Here is just one place ( in Arizona ) that reprinted the “Associated Press” story…
NEWS 4 – TUCSON – KVOA
Article Title: Settlement talks ongoing in Yarnell wrongful death case
Published: Apr 17, 2015 3:06 PM CDT by The Associate Press
http://www.kvoa.com/story/28832980/settlement-talks-ongoing-in-yarnell-wrongful-death-case
From the article…
———————————————————————————
PHOENIX (AP) – Parties in a wrongful-death lawsuit stemming from the 2013 Yarnell Hill Fire say they need more time to discuss a settlement.
Lawyers for the sides told a U.S. District Court judge on Friday that they’re working in good faith to resolve the case. They requested that it be put on hold until May 27.
The families of a dozen Granite Mountain Hotshots sued Arizona public agencies last year, seeking a definitive answer on what caused the deaths of 19 members of the crew. The lawsuit also seeks damages for funeral costs, pain and suffering, and lost income.
The lawyers say they expect to reconvene settlement talks next month. They say talks have been complicated by a separate but related case that imposed fines and citations on the state Forestry Division.
———————————————————————————
Something I noticed…
Unlike other previous reports ( even from the Associated Press ) about the ‘wrongful death’ lawsuits… they are now describing the actual PRIMARY GOAL of the lawsuits with one simple phrase…
“The families of a dozen Granite Mountain Hotshots sued Arizona public agencies last year, seeking a definitive answer on what caused the deaths of 19 members of the crew.”
In other words… even the MSM is now acknowledging what the families have said all along about these lawsuits.
The PRIMARY reason they were filed is because the families WANT TO KNOW THE TRUTH.
Given that fact… something tells me the ‘settlement’ issues are now focusing on all the new information that has been published lately and whether or not ( and WHEN and HOW ) Brendan McDonough will be compelled to ‘testify’.
The new 30 day extension could be ALL about whether or not Brendan is going to ever be ‘deposed’… or NOT.
Something also tells me that if Brendan’s therapist continues to assert that he NOT ‘testify’ about what he knows… it’s going to take MORE than just 30 days to ‘work that out’.
Followup…
If the ‘gloves come off’ now and ANY of these lawyers now want to see PROOF that Brendan really does have PTSD… and that his ‘therapist’ alone should be able to continue to ‘control’ the court calendar and the court proceedings in BOTH of the pending ‘cases’…
…that alone could take more than 30 days.
If the (supposed) PTSD diagnosis remains the ‘stumbling block’ to even getting a simple behind-closed-doors under-oath deposition out of Brendan… then someone is going to start requesting that the various Judges involved here ‘subpoena’ Brendan’s medical records… or get some kind of ‘sworn statement’ from the therapist.
Even that won’t all be able to ‘go down’ in less than 30 days.
WTKTT,
A long time ago you described how to search this site for previous comments. I was successful in doing so right after that, but now I seem to have forgotten the process because I am unable complete a search.
Could you please re-describe that process.
Also, does it have to be Chapter specific?
Thanks
** THE TEXT FILE WAY
What I have been doing all along is that every time a certain ‘Chapter’ of this ongoing discussion closes and a new one is started… I call up the one that just closed and I save the entire thing as a TEXT file to my hard drive.
I than ADD that ‘new’ ( finished ) Chapter TEXT file to the bottom of an ongoing HUGE ‘Master’ text file that contains ALL of the ‘finished’ Chapters.
When I want to go find something in a previous Chapter… I am them only dealing with ONE ‘Master’ document and I just use ‘Notepad’ to call it up and search through the whole thing in one swell foop.
** THE GOOGLE WAY
Every single ‘Chapter’ of this forum is now indexed PUBLICLY by Google.
You can tell Google to narrow the search down to only pages at InvestigativeMEDIA, and only pages that have the word ‘Chapter’ in them, which pretty much narrows the search down to ONLY all the ‘Chapters’ of this ongoing discussion.
Just go to http://www.google.com
In Google’s SEARCH input bar… just type this…
site:www.investigativemedia.com Chapter TTWARE
Google will come back with links to every single “Chapter” of this forum where the keyword TTWARE appears.
To narrow down the search… just keep adding ‘words’ to the end like this…
site:www.investigativemedia.com Chapter TTWARE dial it back
Google will then return only the ‘hits’ that have all four of those words in them… such as a link to “Chapter VIII” when you were telling me to “dial it back” some.
If you remember an ‘exact phrase’ that you are looking for… just add it to the end of your query but make sure the whole phrase in in QUOTATION MARKS… like this…
site:www.investigativemedia.com Chapter TTWARE “I do my best to keep up”
Google will then return only ONE hit… and it’s for “Chapter V ( FIVE )” when you actually said that in one of your comments.
NOTE: You COULD leave that first word ‘Chapter’ out of your search query… but then you will also get ‘hits’ to pages at InvestigativeMEDIA that aren’t ‘Chapters’ of this forum.
Way over my head Marti….
Keep up the good work….
Thanks, WTKTT
Forgot to add… don’t forget that ‘Google’ searches are case insensitive.
In other words… you could do a query like this…
site:www.investigativemedia.com Chapter TTWARE “I do my best to keep up”
OR it could be this…
site:www.investigativemedia.com Chapter ttware “I DO my BEST to KEEP up”
…and the result will be the SAME.
Google will return only ONE search ‘hit’… and it will be a link to “Chapter V (FIVE)” of this ongoing discussion where you actually said that in one of your comments.
Also forgot to add…
Obviously the ‘Google’ approach will produce links to the ‘Chapters’ of this discussion where what you are searching for might be on that page… but these will just be ‘jumplinks’ to the ‘Chapter’ pages themselves.
You will still need to click the link… and THEN use the “Find Text in the Page” menu option in your browser to ‘Find’ the comment inside that page itself.
That’s why I still prefer the ‘one ‘Master’ TEXT file option.
Regarding this whole “Motion to Dismiss” thingy.
I don’t really have the time to cite this chapter, verse, and page, and also I’m looking at the pdf downloaded instead of the one on the website, because it’s really too hard to navigate it on the website, but…….
The really INTERESTING stuff is is the BIG file, the “2015_03 Updated 04.03.15.pdf”
I hadn’t fortified myself to download and look at that HUGE file until this afternoon.
—————————————-
The BIG file:
https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B6N47Z5CNR-CUDZqdGhpWndxekE/edit
—————————————–
The only reason it’s so BIG is because it contains each of ASFD’s two “Motions to Dismiss” (the two parts of the citation), along with attaching what looks like ALL of the SAIT Report and a bunch of the ADOSH documentation to EACH one of these Motions.
My terminology might get a bit fuzzy here, because I don’t hold all these legal things in my head. And I’m kind of thinking this out as I go along. But here’s whats interesting.
Included in the middle all of this back and forth (on the pdf’s e-page 29) is an April 16, 2014 letter from Administrative Law Judge Joseph L. Moore, to ASDF’s lawyers stating:
“Recognizing that the Complainant has expressly declined to respond to Respondent’s “Motion for Summary Judgment,” filed April 10, 2014, I hereby deny the motion.
Not only is there no mechanism for summary adjudication of issues in these proceedings, but, even if there were, under any reasonable construct,whether or not there was a “willful” violation would clearly appear to involve a question of fact.”
The bottom of this letter from 2014 is stamped 15MAR25, so I’m assuming it is placed in the middle of all these back-and-forths means it has something to do with them.
This letter is actually included as Exhibit 1 in a letter from ICA Lawyer “ADOSH’S RESPONSE TO STATE FORESTRY’S TWO MOTIONS TO
DISMISS” (on pdf e-page 25), that begins by saying:
“Complainant, the Division of Occupational Safety and Health of the Industrial Commission of Arizona (“ADOSH”), hereby responds to Respondent State Forestry’s motions to dismiss Citation 1 Item 1(b) and (c). State Forestry’s motions — unsupported by applicable legal authority and not allowed in this forum — are meritless and should be denied, stricken and returned to the law firm which filed them.
Simply put, the Industrial Commission rules governing this ADOSH proceeding contain no mechanism for summary adjudication of issues. See A.A.C. R20-5-801 et seq. This forum has no equivalent of state or federal court’s Civil Rule 12(b) (motion to dismiss) or Civil Rule (summary judgment). State Forestry fails to point to any authority that would require the ALJ to hear and determine the equivalent of a Civil Rule 12(b) or Civil Rule 56 motion prior to giving the parties the opportunity to develop a factual record at hearing, and as State Forestry’s counsel is aware, none exists. State Forestry’ s legal and factual arguments should be made at the hearing, based on the facts developed and presented there.
The law firm which represents State Forestry and filed these motions to dismiss is well aware that no mechanism exists for summary adjudication in this forum. In the pending ADOSHv. Guthrie General matter (Inspection No. R1538-317023067), in which this same law firm represents Respondent Guthrie General, the ALJ issued an order on April 16, 2014 denying Guthrie General’s motion for summary judgment, noting inter alia that “there is no mechanism for summary adjudication of issues in these proceedings ….” See April 16, 2014 Order (attached as Exhibit 1). Likewise, in ADOSH v. Gehan Homes (Inspection No. H1793-317322709), this same law firm’ s numerous motions for dismissal and summary adjudication were denied in 2014 after ADOSH’ s counsel pointed out the lack of a procedural mechanism for summary adjudication in this forum. See Inspection No. H1793-317322709 (motions and orders in April and May of 2014).
Given the above, no good faith basis exists for the filing of motions to dismiss in this matter as well, wasting not just state taxpayers’ money but also wasting the ALJ’s and ADOSH’ s time by being forced to address and respond to motions which counsel for State Forestry knows this forum does not allow. These massive and improper motions (approximately four inches thick in total) should be denied, stricken and returned to the law firm.”
At which point, in order to follow this narrative, you have to jump to the top of the pdf, to e-page 1. Which is a letter from Cavanagh Law Firm to Judge Mosesso, stating:
“The recent documents filed in the case prompt ASFD to suggest that the most orderly and appropriate way for the Tribunal to deal with this case is for the Tribunal to use the authority and discretion conferred upon it by the Arizona Administrative Code to rule that the Arizona Rules of Civil Procedure should be applied to this matter.
The Arizona Administrative Code fully authorizes this Tribunal to apply the Rules of Civil Procedure. A.A.C. R20-5-644(A)(1) allows the Tribunal to conduct proceedings for “simplification of the issues.” A.A.C. R20-5-644(A)(5) allows the Tribunal to decide “other matters as may tend to expedite the disposition of the proceeding and to assure a just conclusion thereof.””
Along with a bunch of other stuff.
BELOW this letter (sometimes it’s really hard to pick your way through this stuff and make any sense of the timing), on pdf e-page 6, is the following from the ICA lawyer, “ERRATA TO ADOSH’S RESPONSE
TO STATE FORESTRY’S TWO MOTIONS TO DISMISS,” stamped 15March26.
It says:
“Complainant, the Division of Occupational Safety and Health of the Industrial
20 Commission of Arizona (“ADOSH”), files this Errata to its March 25, 2015 Response to State Forestry’s Two Motions to Dismiss. This Errata follows receipt of State Forestry’s letter, dated March 26, 2015, in which State Forestry urges the ALJ to rely upon “R20-5-644(A)(1)” and “R20-5-644(A)(5)” as ostensible authority for State Forestry’s motions to dismiss. State Forestry’s reliance upon these rules is misplaced, as these particular rules were repealed in 2001. (See attached.) The current Arizona Administrative Code rules governing this forum are located in A.A.C. R20-5-801 et seq., and do not provide for summary adjudication.”
So, I guess I just cited chapter, verse, and page.
Basically, as it appears to me, the gist of what is going on here is that what ADOSH is saying, and I think the judge agrees with, is that this whole conflict HAS to be disputed, ironed out, picked apart, put back together in the HEARING (according to the law), and not in this thingy that ASDF is repeatedly attempting to concoct, in various and sundry ways.
The good tax-paying citizens of the State of Arizona (whether it’s Great or not) ought to be being fully informed (Hello AZCentral???) of all of their oh-so-precious DOLLARS that the Arizona State Department of Forestry is, relatively uncontrollably, BURNING (while everybody is freaking out about those EXPENSIVE PENSIONS), on their behalf and out of their pockets, for all this (probably ultimately FUTILE, all things considered) legal obfuscation.
Wait, wait, WHERE again was it that ASDF wasted dollars doing various futile things related to a certain fire that they seem to be wasting even more dollars again on, via this whole GAME???
Sigh. I just can’t help but wonder, how it could POSSIBLY be — that this kind of expensive obfuscating is taught in Law School.
What could POSSIBLY make me think of THAT?
So none of this “Motions to Dismiss” thingy actually has, AT THIS TIME, ANYTHING to do with ASDF’s BOGUS claim that Brendan left his lookout location in an orderly PLANNED fashion, or that, because there were no fire-fighters “assigned” to Division Z, there were NO fire-fighters whose LIVES WERE THREATENED by the mismanagement IN Division Z.
It has more to do with them using all of that FICTION in order to get their “Motions to Dismiss” taken seriously by the Judge, on the basis of a statute that NO LONGER EXISTS and in a way that they have already tried doing before and already know is not LEGITIMATE.
Given what I wrote above, I would really like to see an accounting of how much MONEY this LEGAL GAME is racking up, especially since it still has, obviously, a LONG LONG LONG LONG way to go.
And, yeah, compared to THIS RACKET, I’d LOVE to get paid to the same hourly tune, for all the hours that, THANK YOU SONNY I REALLY APPRECIATE WHAT YOU SAID, we have put into this “Campfire” of “Citizen Investigators” with all our acknowledged warts and such.
And, yes, I know some really AWESOME LAWYERS. But these aren’t those. Not even close.
This whole thing is just a FRIGGIN RACKET.
OK, End of rant. This thingy just really p*sses me off.
Correction.
“It has more to do with them using all of that FICTION in order to get their “Motions to Dismiss” taken seriously by the Judge, on the basis of a statute that NO LONGER EXISTS and in a way that they have already tried doing before and already know is not LEGITIMATE.”
Should read:
“It has more to do with them using all of that FICTION in order to get their “Motions to Dismiss” taken seriously by the Judge, on the basis of a statute that NO LONGER EXISTS and in a way that THEIR LAWYERS have already tried doing before and already know is not LEGITIMATE.”
Marti… yes… you pretty much nailed it.
It really chaps the ‘Arizona Forestry’ lawyers’ asses that this is NOT a ‘regular’ civil court case proceeding and so a lot of their ‘bag ‘o tricks’ just won’t work.
It chaps them so much they are actually now ( in even the latest documents ) trying to tell ALJ Judge Michael Mosesso what his JOB is… and how he’s supposed to be doing it.
It would not surprise me at all if a real nasty-gram slap-down comes back from the desk of Judge Michael Mosesso following this latest round of “here’s how we think you should do your job” from these ( arrogant ) Arizona Forestry lawyers.
Keep in mind that these guys/gals are persistent enough in trying to get their way here that they have NOW stooped to mentioning ( in what they KNEW would be a PUBLIC document ) that the key witness in the case has been officially diagnosed with PTSD and is currently undergoing ‘treatment’ for it with an actual ‘therapist’.
The ONLY reason they mentioned that was to try and get Mosseso to go along with their motion to dismiss that ADOSH Citation 1 – Item 1(b) that pertains to Brendan.
They now are specifically telling Judge Mosesso…
—————————————————————-
As discussed in the Motion to Delete Citation 1, Item 1(b), however, ADOSH’S
interviews of Mr. McDonough contradict the allegations in Citation 1, Item 1(b).
In addition, considering the Motion to Delete Citation 1, Item 1(b) will ensure
that Mr. McDonough is not forced to recount the events surrounding the Fire
more than necessary.
—————————————————————-
Sounds like a THREAT, doesn’t it?
That’s because it IS.
They have just finished telling the Judge that poor, poor Brendan has PTSD and that’s why his therapist thought that having to testify to anything back on February 26, 2015 would have been “not good for poor, poor Brendan’… and now just paragraphs later they are flat-out threatening the Judge that if he doesn’t rule in THEIR favor on this… they are going to FORCE him to the stand to go over and over all of this AGAIN… and if that means the worsening of poor, poor Brendan’s medical condition… it will all be because Judge Mosesso was the ‘bastard’ who wouldn’t give THEM what they wanted.
I knew this wasn’t going to be ‘pretty’… but the arrogance and thoughtlessness and carelessness and unprofessionalism of these Arizona Forestry attorneys is even astounding me.
And it’s probably going to get WORSE.
I actually do believe that this recent ‘ploy’ on the part of the Arizona Forestry lawyers to try and FORCE Judge Mosesso to grant at least one of the their ‘motions to dismiss’ regarding Item 1(b) might even be a serious violation of the HIPPA laws… and they may be subject to some serious sanctions because of it.
Revealing the details of someone’s private medical condition in a public document just to try and use that as a ‘card’ you are playing in some stupid lawyer-poker-game is ‘off the reservation’.
Since I have been writing this whole thing, I haven’t had time to read what you wrote just down below, but I’ve been, otherwise, following all that you have been writing.
THIS:
“Revealing the details of someone’s private medical condition in a public document just to try and use that as a ‘card’ you are playing in some stupid lawyer-poker-game is ‘off the reservation’.”
Exactly. It seems to me that EVERYTHING they are doing is some version of “off the reservation.”
(And not to mention it, but, all things considered, it appears that the Southwest may be heading into a worse than last year to the point of SERIOUS wildfire season, with all that THAT could entail)
One thing that caught my curiosity, also, in all of this (including that this whole “revelation” by ASDF is a HIPPA violation), was that there is no EVIDENCE submitted (as long as they were, in violation of HIPPA, doing this anyway) supplied as to any documentation of what this therapist supposedly indicated.
It’s all just something Counsel is positing. Via WHAT? Who knows?????
One of the things I thought about as I read some of the things you wrote downstream, when you were wondering WHO might this “therapist” be, and why would any therapist be going along to get along, or whatever.
I was just sitting back, thinking about some of my own experiences.
Once upon a time, awhile ago, for five years, I was the “Outreach Minister” for the New Mexico Conference of Churches Affordable Housing Program.
It was my job to counsel people living in the apartments that the Conference owned. Sometimes I did that work between a serious rock and a serious hard place.
I was hired to do that job because, in the eyes of my mentor/boss, I was a “survivor.”
In order to do that job, I had to really work, and listen, and be, relatively speaking, non-judgemental, and gain the trust of people who were often dealing with all kinds of PSTD and other kinds of pressures. I worked very hard, and sensitively, in order to do that.
On the other side of the coin, I was also interacting with (and, to some extent, representing) the MANAGEMENT of that whole operation. Who wasn’t always all that happy with residents who were having all kinds of problems that created HASSLES for the management.
That’s what I mean by the rocks and the hard places.
I decided, in the course of doing what I was doing, that the well-being of my clients (the residents) was more important to my work than the well-being of the Management. It wasn’t by a HUGE ratio, but it was by a significant one. That ratio eventually got me fired.
Rocks and hard places.
I sat back a little bit earlier today and thought about the possibility that a therapist COULD, actually, based on my experience, determine (without being aligned with anything having to do with all the shenanigans we see via the ASFD and their lawyers) that it could be a seriously destructive thing for Brendan to, at this time, be deposed, even in a “private” deposition, GIVEN……..
…….ALL the obvious VULTURES that are flying around all of this thingy.
I could easily imagine myself realizing that, given all the PTSD and Surviver Guilt and High Profile Nature of all of this, I would want to help Brendan recover and re-re-cover and re-re-re-cover what he had inside his mind, given all the trauma and post-experience-publicized narratives that were/are flying all around his consciousness.
And that that could, actually, take some TiME.
I could SERIOUSLY imagine myself thinking that having, at this time, my client, be interrogated by a lawyer/lawyers, especially given these AGENDAS they are SERVING (as witnessed by the shenanigans above), could definitely be destructive to both my client’s ability to actually accurately re-member the deep and conflicted and delicate truth that is residing inside his mind and, thus, be able to present that truth to the families and fire-fighters who are in need of it.
So, yes, I can understand how a legitimate independent therapist could advise his Counsel that, all things considered, deposing Brendan at this time, and in this context, could be more harmful to him than useful for getting at the necessary truth.
I’m not saying that’s what’s going on.
I’m just saying I can see how it could be possible that that could be, at least in part, what’s going on.
>> Marti said…
>>
>> So, yes, I can understand how a legitimate independent
>> therapist could advise his Counsel that, all things
>> considered, deposing Brendan at this time, and in this
>> context, could be more harmful to him than useful for
>> getting at the necessary truth.
>>
>> I’m not saying that’s what’s going on.
>>
>> I’m just saying I can see how it could be possible that
>> that could be, at least in part, what’s going on.
Yes. It could.
I actually HOPE ( with all my fingers and toes crossed ) that this ‘therapist’ really is ‘independent’ and not ‘affiliated’ with any agency that has the word ‘Forestry’ or ‘Fire’ in its title… and that Brendan’s well-being and welfare is the ONLY consideration as to what treatment or courses of action are taken.
But at the same time… this is a unique set of circumstances in which Brendan has allowed himself to become ‘entangled’.
There are COURT cases that are ACTIVE and the ‘calendars’ are rolling.
He is the KEY WITNESS in those ‘cases’.
I don’t know if his ‘therapist’ has any experience his/herself with something like this… but part of his ‘treatment’ IS going to have to include handling any number of legitimate legal attempts to get him to ‘testify’ to things that he seems to know.
And yes… at some point here… one of the things that also MUST happen is that this ‘therapist’ ( or someone ) IS going to have to PROVE that the PTSD diagnosis is ‘for real’ and not just someone’s OPINION.
If it CONTINUES to seriously influence the court proceedings ( like it already has ) then at some point it can’t just be a lot of “taking someone’s word for it”. It will have to be PROVEN.
Brendan himself can/should be ‘shielded’ from that process…
but it is going to have to happen if this supposed ‘diagnosis’ continues to seriously influence the court proceedings.
Bottom line here is that since the Arizona Forestry lawyers just basically THREATENED Judge Mosesso with putting Brendan ‘on the stand’ if they don’t ‘get what they want’ from the Judge… even just over the Citation 1 – Item 1(b) thing… and there is already evidence that the ‘therapist’ didn’t even like the idea of a closed-door controlled ‘despostion’…
…then that therapist REALLY isn’t going to like it when all this starts to go to trial and Arizona Forestry makes good on its THREAT and wants to bring Brendan to the ‘stand’ in a PUBLIC hearing… complete with ( you can be sure ) CNN News Cameras.
It’s a mess.
Whatever it takes… I think the ‘therapist’ should realize that a closed-door, controlled deposition with no TV Cameras ( like what was supposed to happen back on February 26 ) is by far the ‘better option’ for his/her client.
Bottom line… I really do seriously hope this is all being handled by REAL professionals who DO know what they are doing.
It would be absolutely beyond tragic if this stupid Yarnell Hill Fire claims yet another victim… and I think you know what I mean.
By the way… see the SIDENOTE below with the ‘411 skinny’ in it regarding a possible HIPPA violation on the part of the Arizona Forestry lawyers.
As it turns out… since Brendan’s lawyer himself chose to SHARE that information with the Arizona Forestry lawyers… then it is ( legally speaking ) considered ‘fair game’.
Since it was being offered as the actual REASON why he and his client were ‘backing away’ from a non-subpoenaed deposition… then that information immediately entered the ‘relevant to the proceedings’ category.
Brendan’s lawyer did NOT have to share that kind of SPECIFIC medical information with anyone ( AZF and ADOSH Lawyers included ) in order to just ‘back away’ from that non-subpoena based deposition…
…but he DID.
Since he didn’t really have to ( but DID )… it would almost appear that it was a conscious CHOICE on his part to do so… at that time… and felt it was ‘in the best interests of his client’ to get that information ‘on the table’.
Sympathy? Leverage? Some other tactical advantage?
Who knows.
I just sincerely hope Brendan himself was consenting to this, and AWARE, that the minute that information left his Lawyers mouth it WOULD then become ‘Public information’.
I would hate to think Brendan himself has been ‘blind-sided’ by his actual specific medical information ‘going PUBLIC’ if he didn’t really want it to.
I’m agreeing with what you are saying.
And, as I am imagining myself being Brendan’s “therapist/counselor” — which is stretching it, but I was involved in some seriously SENSITIVE things — I would know, as a professional, that this couldn’t be delayed forever and that Brendan would, eventually, have to take some kind of witness stand and be deposed under oath.
My goal would be to help him REMEMBER. Both for his own sake and for what was eventually facing him. And for his responsibility, as an adult, to face that.
And I would, RIGHT NOW, be seriously engaged in trying to do that, even as I may have told his counsel that he was not quite in a mind-frame to do that RIGHT NOW.
As someone who has been involved in somewhat similar situations, I’m seeing this as a fairly intense one.
More extreme behavior WILDFIRE still burning.
You wrote:
“Since he didn’t really have to ( but DID )… it would almost appear that it was a conscious CHOICE on his part to do so… at that time… and felt it was ‘in the best interests of his client’ to get that information ‘on the table’.
Sympathy? Leverage? Some other tactical advantage?
Who knows.”
I think it could have been in consultation with his “therapist” who thought that that February deposition was not in the best interest of either Brendan or the truth.
There are two options.
A “private” deposition that, already, the “vulture” lawyers representing ASDF are trying to use repealed statutes to defend NOT deposing him vis-a-vis his having been at mortal risk in his lookout situation — and, so how trustworthy is THAT????
versus
A public deposition in what looks to be, at this point, all things considered, an actual public trial — given the apparent collapse of the Mediation.
To me, as a therapist/counselor, all things considered, I’d say LET’S BUY TIME, therefore go for the public deposition, even with the cameras rolling.
I don’t think Brendan’s afraid of the cameras, at this point, all things considered.
I know you have said that the evidence we have demonstrates that Brendan at least wanted to GET THIS TRUTH off his chest.
And I agree with that.
But I think some of that may be CONFLICTED, vis a vis the whole issue of Survivor Guilt, which can be a HUGE struggle.
My own Survival Guilt complex took me decades to even recognize, much less deal with. But I’m guessing whoever is counseling Brendan (I hope) is more up on that in 2015.
But I really think that’s a factor, and a difficult one.
So what I’m seeing (and I could be way inaccurate) at this moment is a BUYING OF TIME, in order to help Brendan work at articulating what he actually heard/experienced, given all the emotional trauma he naturally experienced, compounded by all the media hype, and all the circulating narratives that, understandably, may have shaped (even possibly inaccurately) his understanding of what actually happened.
Which leads me to my next thought.
Not only would I really like to know what is happening regarding the cash register attached to this whole legal racket thingy…..
I would also like to really know WHO EXACTLY in the Arizona State Department of Forestry is ORCHESTRATING this whole RACKET.
Through all of this, I haven’t been one to say that anybody involved in this fire should have been fired. Because I have, all along tried to LOOK UP. I think this fire was, mostly, mismanaged from the TOP. And everything else is a consequence of that.
Including, in the context of that total mismanagement, the fatal decisions of a crew left out on a ridge to do WHATEVER, while a fire was (as forecasted) picking itself up and turning itself around and causing its FORECASTED chaos, while nobody was much paying attention to that crew, given all the CHAOS that they were all, at the last minute, dealing with.
I recently watched a set of videos from a recent symposium in Albuquerque dealing with how to deal with SMOKE, especially on prescribed fires. SMOKE is a HUGE issue that has to be dealt with when doing the prescribed burns that really really need to be done.
One of the presenters was Roy Hall. It became clear to me that he is regarded with massive respect here in the Southwest. A lot of other presenters who were describing how they deal with the very real issues involved in bringing fire back into the landscape were trained by him and really honor his mentorship.
He spoke, with palpable pain, both in his voice and demeanor, of FAILURE. And everybody, I’m sure, knew what he was talking about. He was relating that to the FEAR that EVERYBODY who is doing the hard. but necessary, work of bringing fire back into the southwestern landscape, has to deal with.
There’s always that possibility that………..
I actually don’t blame what happened on Roy Hall.
Given this “Motion to Dismiss” game-racket thingy, and my ongoing questions about how, and by whom, it was determined (without doing the REQUIRED Escaped Fire Analysis) that deploying a Type 2 Short Team (scattered around Arizona), instead of the Type 2 Full Team (most of whose members including its IC were right there an hour away in Prescott) was, all things considered, an appropriate decision to make, given the potential consequences of what this fire could do.
I really think someone UP THE CHAIN in Phoenix is desperately, no matter what the cost, attempting to cover their personal rear end for all of this.
Reply to Marti Reed post on April 17, 2015 at 9:13 pm
>> Marti said…
>>
>> I would also like to really know WHO EXACTLY in the
>> Arizona State Department of Forestry is ORCHESTRATING
>> this whole RACKET.
It’s a good question.
Forgetting the ‘wrongful death’ lawsuits for a moment… just the ‘billable hours’ that have gone down for the “Arizona Forestry vs. ADOSH” thing alone have probably ALREADY exceeded the actual total amounts of the Citations themselves ( only $559,000 dollars… including all 19 lump sum payments of a lousy $23,000 to each of the 19 families ).
And they aren’t even near halfway done with this.
By the time even just the “Arizona Forestry vs. ADOSH” thing is over… the “billable hours’ could be in excess of 4 or 5 times the actual FULL amounts of the ADOSH ‘fines’ themselves.
So for SOMEONE there in ‘Arizona Forestry’… it ain’t about the stupid ‘fines’. That’s fer sure.
It’s more about admitting any ‘guilt’ and how that’s gonna swing the cash register into the stratosphere in the OTHER ‘cases’ if they don’t find a way to ‘settle’ the wrongful death suits.
If the ‘wrongful death’ lawsuits go to a jury… the actual amounts awarded COULD make the lousy $559,000 in ADOSH fines look like lunch money.
We are simply watching a team of attorneys who work for the State of Arizona doing what they HAVE to do, here.
They HAVE to try and defeat the ADOSH findings and somehow mitigate Arizona Forestry’s negligence and responsibility in this incident… or they are going to get KILLED in the wrongful death lawsuits monetary awards phase of that proceeding.
They KNOW that.
>> Marti also said…
>>
>> I really think someone UP THE CHAIN in Phoenix is
>> desperately, no matter what the cost, attempting to
>> cover their personal rear end for all of this.
There was never any real reason given why State Forester Scott Hunt was ‘replaced’. Was it really his own choosing?… or was HE just someone else that needed to be ‘thrown under the bus’?
If he was ‘forced out’… it’s a pretty short list as to WHO would have been able to perform THAT ‘hit’ at that level of governance.
This fire “continues to burn”… and yes… some people might still be making sure they have their Nomex on and their sleeves rolled up.
** REGARDING HIPPA
SIDENOTE: The 411 ‘skinny’ on whether or not the Arizona Forestry lawyers just committed any HIPPA violations by plastering Brendan’s medical status and condition all over a stupid ‘motion to dismiss’ filing is pretty much as follows…
If the medical information that came ‘into their possession’ was freely supplied by the source and it DOES pertain to ‘the case’… there really is no HIPPA violation.
In this instance… I’m afraid it looks more like Brendan’s lawyer David Shapiro that ‘dropped the ball’.
It was Brendan’s lawyer who had the responsibility here to make sure Brendan’s medical status and information remained ‘private’ and OUT of the case files… if that is what Brendan wished.
By freely admitting to the lawyers ( for either side ) in the case that Brendan has PTSD and that is why they were ‘backing out’ of a pre-scheduled deposition… that pretty much made that information ‘fair game’ at that point.
Backing out of a pre-scheduled deposition is definitely ‘relevant to the case proceedings’ and so ( therefore ) is the REASON why that was done.
Brendan’s lawyer did NOT have to share his client’s actual ( specific ) medical condition or information in order to just ‘back away’ from a non-subpoenaed deposition…
…but he DID.
It’s still pretty despicable that the Arizona Forestry lawyers would now be consciously plastering that obviously private information all over their PUBLICLY available silly ‘motions to dismiss’ crap just to try and convince the Judge to give them what they want… but there it is.
Regardless of choices that Brendan’s lawyer has made about what to ‘share’ about his client’s medical condition without even a subpoena in place… there were/are other ‘graceful’ ways for the lawyers to inform the Judge in the case about how this is affecting a ‘key witness’ in the case and is ability to grant a non-subpoenaed deposition.
You have to wonder.
Since there was no reason that Mr. David Shapiro really HAD to share his own client’s PTSD diagnosis and treatment in order to just ‘back away’ from that non-subpoenaed deposition…
…you almost have to believe it was a conscious CHOICE on his part to put that medical information ‘on the table’ at this point in the proceedings and that it really was ( in his mind ) in the ‘best interests of his client’ to do so.
Leverage? Sympathy? Some other tactical advantage?
Who knows.
I surely hope that Brendan himself knew that information was going to ‘go public’ the minute it left Shapiro’s mouth… and that Brendan himself isn’t now ‘blind-sided’ by it appearing in PUBLIC documents.
Whoops… typo up above.
Should have been…
This fire “continues to burn”… and yes… some people might still be making sure they have their Nomex on and their sleeves rolled ALL THE WAY DOWN.
OK. So I’m sitting here thinking about this, given how I might have been trying to handle this regarding my client, as a therapist/counselor/minister/whatever.
I’m “thinking out loud” here. It may be a complete failure.
I have determined that, all things considered, my client is not ready to be “deposed” by a bunch of lawyers-with-agendas-with-millions-of-dollars-at-stake.
(Who are representing a State Agency who really really really want that deposition so they can use it to bolster their case that something Brendan heard may indicate that that State Agency really is not at fault because some combination of Eric/Jesse made the decision, against all odds, to order/lead the crew into a situation that was non-survivable. Even though, all things considered, legally speaking, that narrative could actually turn around and bite them in the butt, because Eric was, as a Division Superintendent, part of the Incident Management Team, thus representing Arizona Department of Forestry).
Whether or not I know all of the above permutations, I communicate to my client’s lawyer. that I don’t believe my client is ready to be deposed in this way, given the circumstances.
My client’s lawyer communicates that to the lawyers representing ASDF. Without any supporting documentation from me (or even maybe with, but that documentation isn’t included in these files. Maybe because of HIPPA?)
My client’s lawyer doesn’t actually have to say that to the lawyers representing ASDF, but he does. He’s merely trying to communicate why his client is backing out of his scheduled deposition (which may have been a supreme mistake, given what happens next).
The lawyers representing ASDF then decide (in the midst of bits and pieces of this story going viral, via a media hit orchestrated by those same ASDF lawyers in order to make public that Brendan has some stuff to say that may implicate Eric/Jesse in the deaths of the GMHS)………..
……to use Brendan’s PTSD/Whatever status to try to hardcore PRESSURE the Judge on the ADOSH vs ASDF case to drop the citation against them regarding Brendan’s having been put at mortal risk on that fire (via a totally BOGUS narrative), citing a statute that was repealed in 2001 (which they know about).
So now I’m contemplating the fact that they have, at least up to now, REALLY wanted Brendan’s deposition, but NOW they really DON’T want whatever he might say about his OWN LIFE being put in mortal danger, so far so as to claiming that under a statute that they know has been repealed, THAT part of his story should be dealt with……DIFFERENTLY, i.e, being dismissed, because right now they are claiming that that wasn’t the case.
So that’s what I’m seeing right now. i could be mistaken, and I am, as I have always said I am, open to being corrected.
Yikes. Is all I have to say.
OK. After writing all of that I have to end my night by posting this. In honor of all the wildland fire-fighters who go out there and actually do the job, even tho some of the agencies that are their Overhead may not be all that committed to their actual safety while doing so.
Navajo Hotshots 2012 Fire Season
https://youtu.be/njk_uHhRmgQ?list=PLTErVrHH6uJgGEPDQR8QgrwM8D9gth1c6
Last night I wandered over to my local Blakes LottaBurger to get one of the best green chile cheeseburgers crafted in these United States.
It just so happened there was an Albuquerque Fire Department crew gathered there, also.
As I sat down and waited for my green chile cheeseburger to get made, I eavesdropped on their conversation.
They were talking about an up-coming wildland fire-fighting training event regarding fighting fires in our endangered Cottonwood Bosque that runs right up through the middle of Albuquerque..
They were talking about the sand-table part of it, about the plastic engines and the ribbons that would be draped around it representing the fire. There was some joking around about that. And then they were talking about where various bunches of brush needed to be cleared/burned out.
I was sitting there trying to listen in while trying not to be obvious.
After my number got called, I went up and got my green chile cheeseburger, and then, as I walked out, I just said “Thank You” to them.
They said, “Thank you” back to me. Even though they had no friggin idea how much time I have invested in trying to understand what they do.
I just wish the lawyers involved in this game-racket we are discussing, and the who-ever in the ASDF is involved in this “Thingy”, cared as much for the actual fire-fighters as I decided to try to communicate to my fire-fighters, that I did last night.
Here’s Roy Hall’s talk:
Roy Hall – Fire, Smoke Repeat: Managing Smoke on the Edge of Tomorrow
“Published on Mar 3, 2015
On November 6-8, 2014, multiple stakeholders gathered to learn about, share and discuss smoke management issues related to wildland fire. The following video is a presentation that occurred during the event, “Wildland fire smoke in the air- What does it mean to ME?””
https://youtu.be/s1yK7Orq9Ws?list=PLTErVrHH6uJgGEPDQR8QgrwM8D9gth1c6
**
** ARIZONA FORESTRY’S ‘MOTIONS TO DISMISS’
** CERTAIN PARTS OF ADOSH CITATION 1
These ‘motions’ have been been discussed below already… but here’s sort of a ‘recap’ of what they are all about, according to the latest documents appearing on the PUBLIC ALJ Hearing File web page.
There are FOUR ‘sub-items’ listed under ADOSH’s ‘Citation 1’ that ( in total ) amount to a maximum $70,000 fine for a ‘Willful / Serious’ workplace violation.
The Arizona Attorney General’s Office lawyers who have been assigned to defend Arizona Forestry while they ‘contest’ the ADOSH findings are asking ALJ Judge Michael Mosseso to ‘Dismiss’ TWO of those FOUR sub-items under ‘Citation 1’.
Those TWO sub-items are…
Citation 1 – Item 1(b) – Regarding the near-entrapment of Brendan McDonough.
Citation 1 – Item 1(c) – Regarding near-entrapments in Harper Canyon / Youth Camp area(s).
The attorneys for Arizona Forestry say these particular ‘Citations’ are groundless, baseless, and that there is no evidence to support them, so they want the Judge to basically ‘throw them away’ before this legal proceeding even reaches the evidentiary hearing stage.
Just for the sake of completeness… here is the complete ADOSH ‘Citation 1’ text including sub-items (a), (b), (c) and (d)…
ADOSH Citation 1
———————————————————————————————-
Citation 1 – Item 1 – Type of Violation: Willful Serious
A.R.S. Section 23-403(A): The employer did not furnish to each of his employees employment and a place of employment which were free from recognized hazards that were causing or likely to cause death of serious physical harm to their employees, in that the employer implemented suppression strategies that prioritized protection of non-defensible structures and pastureland over firefighter safety, and failed to prioritize strategies consistent with Arizona State Forestry – Standard Operation Guide 701 Fire Suppression and Prescribed Fire Policy (2008). When the employer knew that suppresssion of extremely active chaparral fuels was ineffective and that wind would push active fire towards non-defensible structures, firefighters working downwind were not promptly removed from exposure to smoke inhalation, burns and death:
a) Yarnell Hill Fire, Yarnell, Arizona: On June 30, 2013, between 1230 and 1430, and after the general public had been evacuated, thirty-one members of Structure Protection Group 2, charged with protecting non-defensible structures in the vicinity of the Double Bar A Ranch, were exposed to smoke inhalation, burns, and death by wind driven wildland fire.
b) Yarnell Hill Fire, Yarnell, Arizona: On June 30, 2013, from and after 1530, one member of the Granite Mountain Interagency Hotshot crew that continued to serve as a lookout was exposed to smoke inhalation, burns, and death by a rapidly progressing wind driven wildland fire.
c) Yarnell Hill Fire, Yarnell, Arizona: On June 30, 2013, from and after 1530, approximately thirty firefighters continued indirect attack activities in Division Z (Zulu) and were exposed to smoke inhalation, burns, and death by a rapidly progressing wind driven wildland fire.
d) Yarnell Hill Fire, Yarnell, Arizona: On June 30, 2013, from and after 1530, 19 members of the Granite Mountain Interagency Hotshot Crew continued in suppression activities, until 1642 when they were entrapped by a rapidly progressing wind driven wildland fire.
Date By Which Violation Muse be Abated: 12/11/2013
Assessed Penalty: $70,000 ( Maximum allowed for a Willful / Serious violation ).
———————————————————————————————–
** CITATION 1 – ITEM 1(b) – Regarding the near-entrapment of McDonough
Again… ADOSH Citation 1 – Item 1(b) says…
——————————————————————————————-
b) Yarnell Hill Fire, Yarnell, Arizona: On June 30, 2013, from and after 1530, one member of the Granite Mountain Interagency Hotshot crew that continued to serve as a lookout was exposed to smoke inhalation, burns, and death by a rapidly progressing wind driven wildland fire.
——————————————————————————————–
Now here is the ‘argument’ the Arizona Forestry lawyers are making to Judge Mosesso to support their request that he DISMISS this “Item 1(b)” of the citations right away…
——————————————————————————————–
A. The Statements Made By Mr. McDonough in His Two Interviews with ADOSH and the Photographs Mr. McDonough took After He Left His Lookout Position, Which ADOSH Ignored, Contradict the Allegations in Citation 1, Item 1(b)
Mr. McDonough was interviewed, at length, by ADOSH twice During the interviews, Mr. McDonough explained the circumstances surrounding his involvement with the Fire and his departure from his lookout position. Mr. McDonough’s account of the events surrounding the Fire does not support the allegations in to Citation 1, Item 1(b).
ADOSH was in possession of Mr. McDonough’s statements while it conducted its investigation and when it made its recommendations to the ICA. Furthermore, ADOSH was in possession of photographs taken by Mr. McDonough which clearly establish that he was not subject to the conditions alleged in Citation 1, Item 1(b). The photographs show that Mr. McDonough was not where ADOSH alleges he was at the time ADOSH alleges he was, as set forth in the Citations. ADOSH, however, elected to not discuss Mr. McDonough’s photographs during its two interviews with him.
As a whole, ADOSH either failed to comprehend the information it had or chose to ignore it.
Regardless of the reasons why ADOSH made the allegations that it made, it is undeniable that justice and efficiency require that when the very statements made by the individual who was purportedly exposed to a dangerous condition contradict the allegation that he was exposed to such a condition, that portion of the Citation must be deleted. Failure to do so will require Mr. McDonough, the parties, and the Tribunal to go through the unnecessary process of having Mr. McDonough testify about information that is already in the record and unequivocally supports deletion of Citation 1, Item 1(b).
——————————————————————————————–
First and foremost… the Arizona Forestry lawyers are MISTAKEN in assuming that ADOSH reached its conclusions for the Item 1(b) Citation solely on the basis of anything Brendan McDonough HIMSELF may ( or may NOT ) have said to them.
In his FIRST ADOSH interview on August 20, 2013, Brendan McDonough was obviously not aware of all the facts surrounding his own situation and he was confused ( and mistaken ) about even the very reason Blue Ridge Superintendent Brian Frisby had suddenly ‘appeared’ to rescue him.
August 20, 2013 was almost a MONTH before the actual SAIR report would be published.
That SAIR report is when we first learned that Eric Marsh had asked Brian Frisby to come up to meet HIM for a second ‘face-to-face’ meeting that day and THAT is the only reason Brian Frisby was headed WEST on that two-track that day ( at that time ) and then ‘accidentally’ came across Brendan abandoning his lookout position.
During his first ADOSH interview on August 20, 2013, Brendan himself seemed completely unaware that was the reason Frisby had ‘accidentally’ come across him to ‘rescue’ him that day, and completely unaware that Marsh had requested that second face-to-face with Frisby.
On August 20, 2013, Brendan actually told investigators that Brian Frisby had ‘seen’ the situation developing where he was and had already decided to ‘come and get him’. That is what Brendan seemed to actually believe.
Here is the part from Brendan’s FIRST ADOSH interview where he explains what HE believed to be the ‘reason’ why Frisby was there to get him before he even had to chance to call him…
NOTE: The published transcription for some parts of Brendan’s August 20, 2013 interview are wrong. The following is taken directly from the AUDIO recording of that interview and is more accurate than the published version…
Q1 = Barry Hicks, ADOSH investigator
A = Brendan McDonough
———————————————————————————————
1856 Q1: Right. And so, um, does Blue Ridge hear that you’re gonna depart and…
1857
1858 They could see what was going on and they are already headed there when I
1859 was leaving my knob to go down. Before I even called them on the
1860 radio he was already there.
1861
1862 Q1: He was comin’ to…
1863
1864 A: Yeah.
1865
1866 Q1: Comin’ to that point…
1866
1866 A: Yeah
1866
1866 Q1… so that – that came together really well. You didn’t…
1867
1868 A: Yeah.
1869
1870 Q1: …have to… with a lotta…
1871
1872 A: And… I mean, he told me.
1873
1874 Q1: Yeah.
1875
1876 A: I – I trust him.
1877
1878 Q1: Yeah. Okay.
——————————————————————————————–
So on August 20, 2013, Brendan was NOT aware that Brian Frisby had only ‘accidentally’ come across him there on the two-track. He was still under the mistaken impression that Frisby had traveled in his direction because he was already ‘aware’ of Brendan’s circumstances and had already ‘decided’ to ‘come and get him’.
Even on October 10, 2013, during his SECOND ADOSH interview, Brendan told ADOSH investigators that he still had not even READ the SAIR report that was published the morning of September 28, 2013.
So it is still not clear if even in Brendan’s SECOND ADOSH interview whether Brendan was fully aware that the circumstances of his ‘rescue’ were more ‘accidental’ than any kind of ‘plan’.
From Brendan’s SECOND ADOSH interview on October 10, 2013.
This is where he tells ADOSH he had STILL not even ‘read’ the SAIR report.
Q2 = Marshall Krotenberg – ADOSH lead investigator
A = Brendan McDonough
——————————————————————————————-
374 Q2: Do you have – have you – ha- have you had a chance to look at this Serious
375 Accident Investigation Report?
376
377 A: Um…
378
379 Q2: Or parts of it anyway?
380
381 A: I – I guess…
382
383 Q2: I’m not gonna ask you anything specific.
384
385 A: I mean, honestly, no, I haven’t looked at it yet.
——————————————————————————————-
So even though Brendan did NOT seem to be fully aware during EITHER of his ADOSH interviews how ‘chancy’ his ‘accidental rescue’ really was that day… he STILL acknowledged to ADOSH investigators ( in BOTH interviews ) that he was ‘aware’ that the ‘timing’ was TIGHT and that he had been ‘deciding where he could deploy’ and had, in fact, been actually physically pressing the TRANSMIT button on his radio to call for someone in Blue Ridge to ‘come and get him’ at the very moment Brian Frisby accidentally appeared where he was.
He also repeated ( to ADOSH ) his testimony that he gave to the SAIT investigators that he HAD been evaluating his ‘deployment’ options at that time, and that he even considered ‘alternatives’ other than that old-grader location that he said had already been ‘assigned’ to him ( by either Jesse Steed or Eric Marsh or BOTH ) as his ‘designated safety zone’.
In their own ‘Investigation Report’… ADOSH summarized these (multiple) conversations with Brendan like this…
Page 19 of the ADOSH Inspection Narrative
——————————————————————————————–
During the interview with McDonough, McDonough stated that he believes that had his escape been delayed for any number of reasons, he would have been faced with shelter deployment and burn-over.
——————————————————————————————–
As to whether or not it is TRUE that Brian Frisby had really only ‘accidentally’ stumbled across Brendan at that exact right moment that day in order to effect his ‘rescue’… the PROOF of that comes directly from the mouth of Brian Frisby himself.
And I mean ‘directly’ from Frisby’s mouth.
The entire section in Brian Frisby’s officially submitted handwritten Unit Log concerning this ‘accidental meetup’ with Brendan was BLACKED OUT ( REDACTED ) by the U.S. Forestry Service… but in the recently released ‘additional’ VIDEOS taken in Yarnell by Prescott National Forest employee Aaron Hulburd… we actually HEAR Brian Frisby himself explaining what happened regarding Brendan to the other PNF Employee KC ‘Bucky’ Yowell.
From Aaron Hulburd VIDEO with filename M2U00271
NOTE: This video is 59 seconds long but was filmed out at the end of the Shrine Road area just before Blue Ridge Captain Trueheart Brown said “Fuck it… let’s go for it” and then Blue Ridge Hotshots Brian Frisby, Trueheart Brown and Prescott National Forest employees Jason Clawson, Aaron Hulburd and KC ‘Bucky’ Yowell all decided to ‘break through’ the fireline and head WEST on the ‘ground rescue mission’.
——————————————————————————————-
+0:00
(Jason Clawson?): Ask them if the black plume is where they are.
+0:02
( OPS2 Paul Musser ): …point just… uh… (down) here in Yarnell.
+0:13
(Unknown – Aaron Hulburd?): How many were in there?
+0:21
(Brian Frisby): They were sittin’ in cold black.
+0:23
(Trueheart Brown): They were in black.
+0:25
(Aaron Hulburd?): (So) THAT’S what they were talking about? (The) Lookout?
+0:28
(Brian Frisby): No. No. (He’s) in black…
+0:30
(KC ‘Bucky’ Yowell?): ( Overlapping with Frisby ) I heard that (one).
+0:31
(Brian Frisby): …and Eric decided that the trail that kinda follows that ridge… green… goes around. That lookout was down below. I went in to go tie in with Eric… and that’s when it picked up. I just happened to stumble upon the lookout… without the… uh… I grabbed him. ( He’s out ).
———————————————————————————————–
So there is Brian Frisby himself describing the moment he encountered Brendan McDonough and he cleary says…
Brian Frisby: “I just happened to stumble upon the lookout”.
There was no PLAN in effect to ‘rescue’ Brendan. Not at the time that it happened, anyway. It was a complete ‘accident’ that Brian Frisby came across Brendan McDonough when he did that day and was then able to ‘rescue’ him from the approaching fireline.
The following ‘evidence’ that Brendan was, indeed, in grave DANGER that afternoon has also already been mentioned down below… but it is important and it is worth repeating here in this ‘summary’.
When filing their ‘motion’ to dismiss Citation 1 – Item 1(b), the Arizona Forestry lawyers also apparently forgot to check with their ‘own man’… the actual Co-Lead of Arizona Forestry’s own sub-contracted SAIT investigation. ( Mike Dudley ).
SAIT Co-Lead Mike Dudley never had ANY doubts that if Brian Frisby hadn’t ‘accidentally’ stumbled across Brendan when he did… that Brendan would have most likely been the ‘first fatality’ that day.
Mike Dudley even used the word “Guaranteed”.
From SAIT Co-Lead Mike Dudley’s PUBLIC statements made
on June 20, 2014, during a PUBLIC presentation in Utah…
———————————————————————————
The Blue Ridge superintendent… he was drivin’ the UTV… he’s picking up the lookout… he’s getting his crew ready to bail out… he’s gathering them up… and he knows he’s gotta move his buggies and Granite Mountain’s buggies… so he’s multi-tasking through this process as he’s tryin’ to have this communication.
I will also say… that if he had not come around the corner at the time that he did… the lookout woulda been the first fatality.
Guaranteed.
There was NO place for that lookout to have safely deployed… and he was WAY too close when he decided to bail out from where the fire was.
———————————————————————————-
As for the strange references to Brendan’s photographs in the Arizona Forestry motion… the Arizona Forestry lawyers seem to have forgotten that according to even the UNREDACTED parts of Brian Frisby’s own handwritten Unit Log… the MOMENT he and Brendan reached that area where the GM Supt and Chase trucks were parked… Brian Frisby himself was so concerned about how CLOSE the fireline was and how FAST it was moving that he decided there was “no time to lose” and no time to just WAIT for the other Blue Ridge ‘drivers’ to reach that location.
Brian Frisby dropped Brendan off at the GM trucks and then IMMEDIATELY continued SOUTH in the Sesame area to expedite getting ‘drivers’ up there to the trucks… since because of the fire behavior… there really was “no time to lose”.
It was WHILE Brian Frisby was acting on these concerns of his about how CLOSE the fire was and how FAST it was approaching that Brendan took some of those iPhone ‘photographs’ of his… which the Arizona Forestry lawyers now seem to want to say represent some kind of PROOF that Brendan was never in ‘any danger’ that day. Quite the opposite, really… including the fact that some of Brendan’s photos are showing a ‘smoke whirl’ right there near the GM vehicles which is just one more indication of ‘extreme fire behavior’ rapidly approaching his location.
In SUMMARY…
Arizona Forestry’s claim to ALJ Judge Michael Mossesso that there is no ‘evidence’ that Brendan McDonough was ever in any ‘danger’ that afternoon is beyond ABSURD.
**
** CITATION 1 – ITEM 1(c) – Regarding near-entrapments in the Harper Canyon and Shrine Road Youth Camp area(s)…
Again… ADOSH Citation 1 – Item 1(c) says…
——————————————————————–
c) Yarnell Hill Fire, Yarnell, Arizona: On June 30, 2013, from and after 1530, approximately thirty firefighters continued indirect attack activities in Division Z (Zulu) and were exposed to smoke inhalation, burns, and death by a rapidly progressing wind driven wildland fire.
——————————————————————–
That is the actual ‘Item 1(c)’ that the Arizona Forestry lawyers want Judge Mosesso to ‘dismiss’ outright… and HERE is their ( twisted ) reasoning at to WHY…
—————————————————————————————
IV. GRANTING THE MOTION TO DELETE CITATION 1, ITEM 1(C) WILL SIMPLIFY
THE ISSUES, EXPEDITE THE PROCEEDINGS, AND ACHIEVE JUSTICE.
In the same way ADOSH’s own investigation and records are devoid of any evidence that supports Citation 1, Item 1(b) ( that Brendan McDonough was in any danger ), ADOSH’s investigation and records also include zero evidence to support Citation 1, Item 1(c). Citation 1, Item 1(c) states that “approximately thirty firefighters continued indirect attack activities in Division Z (Zulu) and were exposed to smoke inhalation, burns and death by a rapidly progressing wind driven wildland fire” ( Citation 1, Item 1(c) ). But, as discussed in the Motion to Delete Citation 1, Item 1(c), at the time of the alleged exposure, there were zero firefighters assigned to Division Z. So Citation 1, Item 1(c) is completely baseless.
—————————————————————————————-
Arizona Forestry is NOT asking Judge Mosesso to DISMISS Item 1(c) because there is no EVIDENCE that the firefighters in the Harper Canyon and Shrine Road Youth Camp areas were never in any real danger or that accounts and testimony from some of them about how they almost became entrapped are FALSE.
Arizona Forestry is asking Judge Mosesso to DISMISS Item 1(c) simply because the AZF attorneys say there is no proof that ‘thirty firefighters’ were ever officially ASSIGNED to ‘Division Zulu’.
The actual ADOSH Citation never says they were.
There is no mention of the word ‘assigned’ in the actual ADOSH Citation.
It only says these firefighters ‘continued indirect attack activities’ INSIDE of a geographic area of the fire that could be construed to be “Division Zulu”, based on what certain ‘fire management’ officials said in THEIR testimony.
The ADOSH citation doesn’t say they ( the thirty firefighters themselves ) ever even really KNEW they could be considered to be working INSIDE of this ‘Division Zulu’… much less had full knowledge as to whether they were officially ‘assigned’ to this ‘Division’.
But they were THERE… and they WERE ‘working in that area’ when ( according to their own testimony ) some of their lives became endangered that afternoon.
In SUMMARY…
Arizona Forestry’s claim to ALJ Judge Michael Mossesso that ‘Item 1(c)’ is ‘completely baseless’ just based on whether the firefighters whose lives were in REAL danger ever even KNEW they were ‘assigned to Division Z’ that day is beyond ABSURD.
It is the Arizona Forestry lawyer’s claims themselves that are “completely baseless”.
It will be interesting to see what Judge Mosesso’s response is to this nonsense.
The Disappeared DIV Z according to AZ Fire there was no DIV Z and all the close calls attributed to it
do not exist because DIV Z did not exist or have any manpower assigned.
This is an interesting twist in the ALJ Hearing File.
If the BR Hot shots and Cat were not working DIV Z then Were they DIV A or were they assigned to the house protection unit. There was a DIV Z with a DIVS that then left the DIVS position but BR Frisby was working on line to tie into GM line DIV A. There was a division line worked out.
The State is somehow trying to say that there were no crews that were in harms way in DIV Z because it did not exist. They want to drop the Fines for those crews.
Might have to dig a little deeper on this one. ADOSH Clamed a DIV Z and crews assigned.
The ADOSH report stated in ( 1.C ) that Approximately 30 Fire Fighters where exposed to Hazards in Division Z,
Looks like some serious game playing here, by Lawyers.
Reply to Bob Powers post on April 17, 2015 at 8:18 am
>> Bob Powers said…
>>
>> The ADOSH report stated in ( 1.C ) that Approximately 30 Fire
>> Fighters where exposed to Hazards in Division Z,
>>
>> Looks like some serious game playing here, by Lawyers.
‘Game playing’, fer sure… but I wouldn’t even call it ‘serious’ for the sole reason that this ‘motion’ trying to get ADOSH Citation 1 – Item 1(c) dismissed is a ‘joke’… and whoever drafted it for the Arizona Attorney General’s office has/had their head up their ass.
They didn’t even get the actual WORDING and/or INTENT of the ADOSH citation right.
ADOSH Citation 1 – Item 1(c) ACTUALLY says…
——————————————————————–
c) Yarnell Hill Fire, Yarnell, Arizona: On June 30, 2013, from and after 1530,
approximately thirty firefighters continued indirect attack activities in Division
Z (Zulu) and were exposed to smoke inhalation, burns, and death by a
rapidly progressing wind driven wildland fire.
——————————————————————–
Notice that the ADOSH Citation NEVER says ( one way or the other ) whether ANYONE was actually ‘assigned’ to ‘Division Z’.
It only says that ( according to other testimony from lots of other people )… it could simply be construed that they were ‘WORKING IN’ a geographical area of the fire that others in fire command were already calling ‘Division Z’.
So now here comes this ridiculous claim from Arizona Forestry…
——————————————————————————–
IV. GRANTING THE MOTION TO DELETE CITATION 1, ITEM 1(C)
WILL SIMPLIFY THE ISSUES, EXPEDITE THE PROCEEDINGS,
AND ACHIEVE JUSTICE.
In the same way ADOSH’s own investigation and records are
devoid of any evidence that supports Citation 1, Item 1(b) ( that
Brendan McDonough was in any danger ), ADOSH’s investigation
and records also include zero evidence to support Citation 1,
Item 1(c). Citation 1, Item 1(c) states that “approximately thirty
firefighters continued indirect attack activities in Division Z
(Zulu) and were exposed to smoke inhalation, burns and death
by a rapidly progressing wind driven wildland fire” ( Citation 1,
Item 1(c) ). But, as discussed in the Motion to Delete Citation
1, Item 1(c), at the time of the alleged exposure, there were
zero firefighters assigned to Division Z. So Citation 1, Item 1(c)
is completely baseless.
——————————————————————————–
Again… AT NO TIME does the ADOSH citation actually claim that the firefighters in question were either ‘officially’ ( or themselves had knowledge they were ) ASSIGNED to something called ‘Division Z’.
The ADOSH citation just says that happens to be the geographic location where they were actually working when they were unnecessarily exposed to hazards that day.
Arizona Forestry’s motion is NOT asking Judge Mosesso to DISMISS Item 1(c) because there is no EVIDENCE that the firefighters in the Shrine Youth Camp and Harper Canyon areas were never in any real danger or that accounts and testimony from some of them about how they almost became entrapped are FALSE.
Arizona Forestry is asking Judge Mosesso to DISMISS Item 1(c) simply because the AZF attorneys want to ‘play games’ here and say there is no proof that ‘thirty firefighters’ were ever officially ASSIGNED to ‘Division Zulu’.
It’s nonsense. What is ‘baseless’ here is THEIR argument.
As if that isn’t enough… ‘Arizona Forestry’ isn’t even contesting the OTHER ( separate ) ADOSH citation which found that the establishment of ‘Division Z’ that day… but then WITHOUT making sure the assigned ‘Division Z Supervisor’ ever even really ‘took charge’ of that Division and fulfilled his responsibilities that day was another cause for the ‘chaos’ in the geographic area of the fire… where fatalities almost ( and also did ) take place that day.
The whole thing with Rance Marquez being officially ‘assigned’ to be ‘DIVSZ SUP’ that day but then just ‘bailing out’ and ‘disappearing’ back to Peeples Valley for the rest of the day is a SEPARATE Citation issued by ADOSH.
Arizona Forestry is NOT contesting that one at all. Not yet, anyway.
So Arizona Forestry is then basically STIPULATING that there really WAS a ‘Division Z’ that day… and it had an assigned supervisor.
WHO actually did ( or didn’t ) know they were now WORKING in that Division and FOR that ‘Division Supervisor[‘ is now permanently part of the total screw-ups and the mis-management that was going down in Yarnell that day… which is why ADOSH issued the Citations.
This really is ‘amateur hour’ on the part of whoever drafted that motion on behalf of “Arizona Forestry”.
Correction for above…
When I said ( regarding the separate Citation about Rance Marquez )…
“Arizona Forestry is NOT contesting that one at all. Not yet, anyway.”
That isn’t true. Arizona Forestry IS ‘contesting’ that citation regarding Rance Marquez never fulfilling his assigned duties and responsibilities as DIVSZ.
Arizona Forestry is, in fact, contesting ALL the ADOSH Citations.
Every single one of them.
That’s the whole reason for this “Arizona Forestry vs. ADOSH” proceeding.
“No one did anything wrong that day. Move along. Move along”.
What Arizona Forestry is NOT doing ( yet ) is asking Judge Mosesso for a ‘dispositive motion’ regarding the separate ‘DIVSZ’ citation.
dispositive motion = DISPOSE of the Citation even before they get to the evidentiary hearings in the case like they are asking for Citation 1, Items 1(b) and 1(c).
“In the same way ADOSH’s own investigation and records are
devoid of any evidence that supports Citation 1, Item 1(b) ( that
Brendan McDonough was in any danger ),”
BOTH HIKERS HERE BUT JOY REPLYING BELOW ABOUT OUR TIME:
I GUESS THEY FORGOT THE WEAVER MOUNTAIN EYEWITNESS HIKERS SAW THIS FIREFIGHTER THAT MORNING IN HIS LOCATION SO WE ARE “LIVING” EVIDENCE THAT THE FIREFIGHTERS IN THE AREA NOT JUST DONUT WERE IN DANGEROUS SPOT ESPECIALLY WHEN WE EYEWITNESS AND FILMED AND PHOTOGRAPHED HARPER CANYON GO UP IN 14 MINUTES. THAT IS WHEN I COULD NOT UNDERSTAND WHY SONNY SAID TO ME IF THE WIND CHANGES IT COULD KILL US. I DID NOT UNDERSTAND THAT WHEN HE SAID IT AND LEFT ME. I JUST SAT THERE BECAUSE I WAS SPENT AND HOT NOT BECAUSE I WAS MESMERIZED AS HE THINKS—I JUST DID NOT NOTE THE DANGER AS HE DID SO EARLY ON
Reply to The Hikers post on April 17, 2015 at 11:55 am
>> The Hikers said…
>>
>> “In the same way ADOSH’s own investigation and records are
>> devoid of any evidence that supports Citation 1, Item 1(b) ( that
>> Brendan McDonough was in any danger ),”
>>
>> BOTH HIKERS HERE BUT JOY REPLYING
>> WE ARE “LIVING” EVIDENCE THAT THE FIREFIGHTERS IN
>> THE AREA NOT JUST DONUT WERE IN DANGEROUS SPOT
This ‘motion’ that the Arizona Forestry lawyers have filed which is trying to establish that Brendan was ‘in no danger’ that day is patently ridiculous and represents nothing but ‘desperation’ and ‘amateur hour’ lawyering on their part.
They didn’t even read the frickin’ ADOSH Investigation report.
Page 19 of the ADOSH Inspection Narrative
———————————————————————
During the interview with McDonough, McDonough stated that he believes that had his escape been delayed for any number of reasons, he would have been faced with shelter deployment and burn-over.
———————————————————————
BOTH of Brendan’s ADOSH interview transcripts support this… but regardless of even that fact… the ADOSH Citation regarding Brendan’s potential entrapment situation was NOT solely based on what Brendan himself did or didn’t tell them. It was based on ALL the evidence regarding what actually happened ( and almost happened ) that day.
Brendan KNEW the danger he was in… which is WHY he was in the process of calling Blue Ridge to come and GET him at that same moment when Brian Frisby ACCIDENTALLY stumbled across him.
As if that wasn’t enough… the Arizona Forestry lawyers also apparently forgot to check with their ‘own man’… the actual Co-Lead of Arizona Forestry’s own sub-contracted SAIT investigation. ( Mike Dudley ).
SAIT Co-Lead Mike Dudley never had ANY doubts that if Brian Frisby hadn’t ‘accidentally’ stumbled across Brendan when he did… that Brendan would have most likely been the ‘first fatality’ that day.
Mike Dudley even used the word “Guaranteed”.
From SAIT Co-Lead Mike Dudley’s PUBLIC statements made on June 20, 2014, during a PUBLIC presentation in Utah…
———————————————————————–
The Blue Ridge superintendent… he was drivin’ the UTV… he’s picking
up the lookout… he’s getting his crew ready to bail out… he’s gathering
them up… and he knows he’s gotta move his buggies and Granite
Mountain’s buggies… so he’s multi-tasking through this process as
he’s tryin’ to have this communication.
I will also say… that if he had not come around the corner at the
time that he did… the lookout woulda been the first fatality.
Guaranteed.
There was NO place for that lookout to have safely
deployed… and he was WAY too close when he decided to
bail out from where the fire was.
————————————————————————
Arizona Forestry’s claim to ALJ Judge Michael Mossesso that there is no ‘evidence’ that Brendan McDonough was ever in any ‘danger’ that afternoon is ABSURD.
To define; THE HIKERS mean we are both present here.
In the photos and videos on 6-30-13 if any lawyer and investigator sat with us we can even pinpoint in video the area of all the firefighters and people we saw locations
Joy says on video live that day how many she saw if any of you listened
The hikers know exact location of people and vehicles and also the timing of off road vehicles on old grader road yet not any official investigators except OSHA inquired and walked the walk…
State and Forest and anyone else never yet took hike to see what the eyewitness hikers to the YHF saw on the Weavers that day. Prescott Mayor made comment to do it but never did. Same as some lawyers. I would of thought Joanna Dodder Nellans would of took the hike with as much coverage she has done and being the very first media person to have access to the photos and videos. She was the one who told us to go to Prescott fire station when we did not get a welcomed feeling once we arrived there. That was my first red flag but I just coughed it up as they just faced a huge loss and their thoughts are elsewhere but I never felt they even wanted access to the photos and videos.
‘
We did not see the bulldozer actually physically parked below the old mine between the old grader and the old mine on 6-30-13 yet there was a bulldozed area to park that was not there before this fire so that is where DIV Z was suppose to be up at, correct? WHO bulldozed that spot? It is not in reports we saw. Can you lead us to the records of who that person that made those tracks? Joy asked the FOIA for Glen Ilah area for the Hunter family and I guess we should have for all areas.
Reply to The Hikers post on April 17, 2015 at 11:13 am
>> The Hikers said…
>>
>> We did not see the bulldozer actually physically parked below
>> the old mine between the old grader and the old mine
>> on 6-30-13 yet there was a bulldozed area to park that was
>> not there before this fire so that is where DIV Z was suppose to
>> be up at, correct?
Field OPS1 Todd Abel testified that DIVSA Eric Marsh called him ( via cellphone ) and said that while he and DIVSZ Rance Marquez had, in fact, had some initial ‘disagreements’…. they eventually AGREED that the ‘Division boundary’ between ‘Division A’ and ‘Division Z’ would be the ‘old grader’.
So from that moment on ( circa 12:45 PM )… that meant that a ‘north-to-south’ boundary between the Divisions had been agreed upon… and the top level Operations Supervisor on the fire had been fully informed about it.
By north-to-south boundary… that means that all fire units and resources working to the WEST of the ‘old grader’ were to be considered working in ‘Division A’ ( Eric Marsh’s Division )… and all fire units and resources working to the EAST of the ‘old grader’ were to be considered working in ‘Division Z’ ( Rance Marquez’s Division ).
Notice that I say just ‘considered to be WORKING in’.
That doesn’t meant all fire units and resources were ever officially ASSIGNED to this ‘Division Z’ that was suddenly created in the middle of the working day.
Indeed… most of the people working for Structure Protection Group 1 Supervisor Gary Cordes there in and around Yarnell were never aware at all that this ‘Division Z’ had even been created… and that their own ‘Division Supervisor’ was now some guy named Rance Marquez.
That is one of the specific Citations that was issued by ADOSH with regards to that ‘unsafe workplace’ there in Yarnell on June 30, 2013.
ADOSH found that this confusion over ‘Division Z’, and DIVSZ supervisor Rance Marquez’s own failure to actually physically remain in Yarnell and PERFORM his ‘DIVSZ’ duties was a contributing factor to the chaos and the resulting potential and actual entrapment situations later in the day.
ADOSH also cited ‘fire management’ ( Incident Commander and Operations Level people ) in general for not making SURE that once this ‘Division Z’ was created/established… that it WAS being properly supervised and managed.
Even Field Operations Manager Todd Abel testified that he had no idea where his own ‘Division Z’ Supervisor was for most of the day… and he never really lifted a finger to even find out.
Field OPS1 Todd Abel’s contacts on the the SOUTH side of the fire were DIVSA Eric Marsh and SPGS1 Gary Cordes… and that was ( apparently ) good enough for him all day long.
Field OPS1 Todd Abel did not CARE that a ‘Division Z’ had actually been established… but no one was actually ‘running’ that established ‘Division’.
>> The Hikers also said…
>>
>> WHO bulldozed that spot? It is not in reports we saw. Can you
>> lead us to the records of who that person that made those tracks?
It is still basically a total mystery WHERE that bulldozer with the 12 foot blade they were using that morning actually CAME from… or WHO the operator was.
It was ‘supposedly’ ordered up the night before from a company called ‘May Machinery’… but it might actually have ended up a ‘County’ dozer loaned out use on the fire.
It was SUPPOSED to have come with a red-card capable manager… but did NOT.
It ONLY came with a ‘dozer operator’ whose NAME is still totally unknown.
He did NOT have a ‘red-card’… OR even have a working handheld radio.
That is why Blue Ridge Hotshot Cory Ball had to be assigned to the dozer ( he had a red-card ) and why Blue Ridge had to loan that operator a radio.
The lo-boy trailer for that bulldozer was parked out there in that clearing at the south end of the ‘Sesame clearing’ area… right past the point where the paved parts of Both Lakewood and Manazanita end and it turns in to that dirt road.
That is also where it is assumed this mysterious dozer operator had to ‘ride out the burnover’ in either the cab of the bulldozer or the cab of the lo-boy trailer.
DPS Ranger 58 Helicopter crew testimony says there were TOLD that they were also supposed to be ‘searching’ for this ‘missing’ dozer operator along with the ‘missing’ Granite Mountain crew.
It is still unknown WHO told the DPS Officers to also be ‘searching’ for the ‘missing’ bulldozer operator following the deployment radio traffic.
It could have been SPGS1 Gary Cordes, or OPS1 Todd Abel, or even OPS2 Paul Musser ( who was now the second active Field OPS on the fire ).
We still don’t know.
This mysterious bulldozer operator was NEVER interviewed by ANY set of investigators… even though he was actively being ‘searched for’ along with Granite Mountain that day.
**
** BRENDAN MCDONOUGH NO LONGER WORKS FOR THE
** WILDLAND FIREFIGHTER FOUNDATION
About 8 hours ago, the following article appeared in the “The Idaho Statesman”.
It looks like that “Wildland Firefighter Foundation” owned and operated by Vicki Minor and her son Burk is going to survive all the latest bad press about how they have been handling all the money that showed up following the Yarnell Tragedy.
But they will be doing it WITHOUT Brendan McDonough remaining ‘on staff’ for them.
The Idaho Statesman
Article Title: Wildland Firefighter Foundation makes changes following financial criticism
Published: April 16, 2015, by Rocky Barker
http://www.idahostatesman.com/2015/04/16/3753740/wildland-firefighter-foundation.html
From the article…
———————————————————————————–
The harsh words from some of the surviving family members of fallen firefighters about the Wildland Firefighter Foundation weren’t easy to hear for Vicki Minor, the executive director and founder of the group that is dedicated to helping them.
I reported in February that critics and former board members said the foundation has grown too fast and had too few controls in place to ensure proper spending. But it was the view of some family members that they were treated poorly or forgotten that was tough on the Boise woman who has dedicated more than 16 years to help firefighters’ families through their grief.
An independent review conducted by Boise consultant Karyn Wood for the foundation’s board confirmed many of the shortcomings I reported in February. There was a lack of clear policies and there was little oversight on expenses, reporting on how they gave money to firefighter survivors and clarity about how the money they raised was spent.
———————————–
Whoops… I hit ‘send’ too early on the post above.
Forgot to include the part of the article that says Brendan McDonough has (quote) “moved on” and is no longer employed by this ‘Wildland Firefighter Foundation’.
The article doesn’t say WHEN Brendan ‘moved on’… only that he has.
More from the same article…
——————————————————————————–
John Henshaw, a retired Forest Service manager from California and chairman of the board, said it has taken the recommendations seriously and intends to put them in place in the next six months.
Already Minor has hired an additional administrative assistant to help with the increased documentation the board has demanded. She’s in the process of hiring a chief financial officer, as recommended, and she plans to hire another person to help provide services to the survivors and injured firefighters.
That will bring staffing up to seven since Brendan McDonough, the only Granite Mountain Hotshot to survive the 2013 Yarnell Fire, has moved on.
——————————————————————————–
Followup…
As of February 11, 2015 ( about 2 months ago ) the “Wildland Firefighter Foundation” was still claiming that Brendan McDonough worked for them and one of his jobs was to help other victims with post-incident PTSD.
Here is that original “Idaho Statesmen” article about their ‘investigation’ of the “Wildland Firefighter Foundation”…
The Idaho Statesman
Article Title: Western residents have questioned a family-run Boise
foundation, forcing an independent review
Published: February 11, 2015 by Rocky Barker
http://www.idahostatesman.com/2015/02/11/3638949_charity-helps-families-but-also.html?rh=1
From that original February 11, 2015 article…
—————————————————————————–
The Idaho Statesman conducted its own investigation of the foundation, examining tax records for the past 12 years and talking to people who have worked with or been served by the foundation.
The newspaper found that in 2013, fueled by the publicity surrounding the Granite Mountain Hotshot deaths, the foundation raised $2,023,410 while spending $469,305 in benefits and other services to families, according to its filing with the Internal Revenue Service. It spent $339,973 on employee salaries, compensation and benefits. The rest went to other expenses and a big chunk to a reserve that can’t be spent without board approval, said Treasurer Cheryl Molis. She declined to say how much.
Today, the association has five full-time employees, including Brendan McDonough, the only Granite Mountain Hotshot to survive the Yarnell Fire. The $339,973 on employee costs for 2013 was an increase of $194,140 over 2012. Vicki Minor’s pay went from $68,999 in 2012 to $108,609 in 2013.
—————————————————————————-
Correction?
I’m actually now not sure the title of the post above shouldn’t have had a QUESTION MARK on the end of it.
I can find no announcement from the “Wildland Firefighter’s Association” itself to the effect that Brendan McDonough has “moved on” and no longer works for them.
Brendan McDonough is NOT listed as a “Staff Member” on the WFF website… but then again… I don’t believe he ever actually HAS appeared anywhere on their “Staff” page.
I suppose it is actually possible that reporter Rocky Barker for the Idaho Statesman screwed up in the article he published TODAY… and when he said Brendan has “moved on” he might *actually* have been referring to Brendan having “moved on” from being a firefighter way back when ( shortly after the Yarnell trafedy ) and that he is still considered to be “on staff” at the Wildland Firefighter’s Association.
Still checking to see if I can find any verification as to whether McDonough still ‘works’ there… or not.
Followup to followup…
Back in early September of 2014, the following “Brendan McDonough Healing Center” page appeared on Facebook… sponsored by the “Wildland Firefighters Foundation”…
HEALING RETREAT CENTER
For Mr. Brendan McDonough and the Wildland Firefighter Foundation
https://www.facebook.com/pages/Brendan-McDonough-Healing-Center/1444027372536748
That page has now been REMOVED from Facebook.
Not sure what that means.
At the following link… someone is still publishing a ‘screen capture’ of what that “Brendan McDonough Healing Center” page USED to look like on Facebook when the page was still ‘available’.
That screen snapshot is about halfway down the page at the following link.
If you simply use the ‘Find’ option in your Browser and search for “Brendan” your Browser will jump right down to it…
http://stopusdawsabuse.blogspot.com/
This is certainly not a criticism of Brendan, as I have repeatedly in the past been one who has advised that I think we should back-off of him a bit.
I still think that.
Having said that, in regards to his employment with the WFF Foundation to help others who have PTSD, I would think it would be nearly, or totally impossible for one who was awash in his own PTSD to be able to logically help others with their’s. If those were his intentions though, they were honorable.
I think considering all of the factors involved, it was almost a given that he was a very strong candidate for survivor”s guilt, and/or PTSD, and with his recent inquiry to the City, that seems to be the case. The recent court filings indicate that he has someone working with him on these issues.
I can only hope that his departure from both, the City, and the WFF Foundation were at his request and that he isn’t repeatedly getting flushed by those who say they are “on his side”.
We all want the truth put out there, sooner, rather than later. but, I still think that he is working through some HUGE issues, not the least of which, is his likely belief that speaking the truth will betray his allegiance to some of his brothers, perhaps dishonoring them, the fallout from which, could last for years.
Putting that out there would be a tall order, even if one didn’t have PTSD.
Reply to The Truth Will Always Remain Elusive ( TTWARE ) post
on April 16, 2015 at 8:51 pm
>> TTWARE said…
>>
>> I can only hope that his departure from both, the City, and the
>> WFF Foundation were at his request and that he isn’t repeatedly
>> getting flushed by those who say they are “on his side”.
Totally agree… but I have to repeat that I now think I should have put a QUESTION MARK at the end of the title of that post above.
As of this moment… I can’t CONFIRM that Brendan has “moved on” from the WFF job as the article above seems to be saying he has.
Until I can CONFIRM what this Rocky Barker guy with the Idaho Statesman said in his article today… there is still the *possibility* that this guy misspoke and when he said “Brendan has moved on”… he was actually referring to Brendan having “moved on” from Wildland Firefighting shortly after the tragedy.
That being said… I also have to agree with your other comment…
>> TTWARE said…
>>
>> In regards to his employment with the WFF Foundation to help
>> others who have PTSD, I would think it would be nearly, or totally
>> impossible for one who was awash in his own PTSD to be able
>> to logically help others with their’s.
Have to agree. I am no therapist, or even a counselor or social worker, but it doesn’t take a degree in psychology to realize it is NOT a good idea to have someone who seems to be officially diagnosed with their own PTSD ( and being actively treated for it ) being the “go to” guy for a Foundation and the one trying to help OTHERS deal with a tragic event in THEIR lives.
>> TTWARE also said…
>>
>> I think considering all of the factors involved, it was almost a given
>> that he was a very strong candidate for survivor”s guilt, and/or
>> PTSD, and with his recent inquiry to the City, that seems to be
>> the case. The recent court filings indicate that he has someone
>> working with him on these issues.
Speaking of the “recent court filings”… it was actually TOTALLY unprofessional ( and a possible violation of actual HIPPA laws ) for those Arizona Forestry lawyers to use Brendan’s ( supposed ) medical condition to just try and bolster their claims in a ‘motion’ filing to try and get what they want out of a Judge.
Those Arizona Forestry attorneys KNOW that, according to Arizona law, these ‘motions’ they are filing with ALJ Judge Michael Mosesso WILL be appearing ( on a timely basis ) in a PUBLIC setting… for anyone to read.
For them to just ‘announce’ that Brendan really does have a diagnosed medical condition, and he is ACTIVELY receiving treatment for it from a therapist… just to try and ‘sway’ a Judge to give them something they want… is really ‘off the reservation’ and they MIGHT be subject to ‘sanctions’ for such (stupid) behavior.
If they really needed to notify the Judge in this proceeding that a possible diagnosed medical condition on the part of a key witness in the case is going to heavily influence the proceedings… they did NOT have to plaster that all over a ‘motion filing’ for all the world to see.
There were/are other ways that information could have been relayed to the Judge in the case more ‘discreetly’… and with more care/concern for Brendan’s situation.
Especially since this ‘dispositive motion’ they are trying to push down the Judge’s throat is already complete and utter bullshit. They want the Judge to dismiss Item 1(b) of ADOSH Citation 1 just because they are trying to claim there is no evidence that Brendan was ever in any actual ‘danger’ that day.
The Co-Lead of Arizona Forestry’s own sub-contracted SAIT investigation ( Mike Dudley ) has ALREADY stated ( in PUBLIC ) that if BR Supt Brian Frisby had not ACCIDENTALLY stumbled across Brendan that afternoon and ‘rescued’ him… that Brendan would have been the (quote) “First fatality that day Guaranteed”.
>> TTWARE also said…
>>
>> We all want the truth put out there, sooner, rather than later. but, I
>> still think that he is working through some HUGE issues, not the
>> least of which, is his likely belief that speaking the truth will betray
>> his allegiance to some of his brothers, perhaps dishonoring them,
>> the fallout from which, could last for years.
Sorry. I just don’t buy that.
For all the following reasons…
1) We KNOW now that Brendan HIMSELF has asked any number of people that he be allowed to ‘get this off his chest’. He, HIMSELF, seems to instinctively KNOW that he needs to get this ‘monkey off his back’ before he can fully heal.
2) Brendan has stated any number of times that HE believes what happened that day was “just an accident”… and that it has “happened before”… and that he has (quote) “Never questioned their decisions before, why should I question them now?” If he REALLY believes those statements HE has (already) made… then there is NO reason for him to even think he is ‘dishonoring’ ANYONE by telling the TRUTH about what really happened that day.
3) MOST of the FAMILIES of ‘his brothers’ have stated over and over and over again that they WANT to know the TRUTH… no matter what it is. They have even filed lawsuits with the expressed intent of accomplishing that. If Brendan can’t see that withholding the information he has always had is hurting the very loved ones of “his brothers”… then he has MORE than just PTSD and he really DOES need professional help.
I am still not convinced ( especially after seeing how easily the Arizona Forestry lawyers will stoop to using someone’s medical condition to try and get what THEY want ) that Brendan isn’t still just involved in too many OTHER people’s damn AGENDAS.
Now that we KNOW there is a ‘therapist’ involved… then WHO is it?
Is it just one MORE person associated with the ‘Fire Service’ who may or may not have their OWN damn agenda here?
Federal WFF Employees are actually ‘entitled’ to have paid-for sessions for PTSD with a ‘therapist’… but it has to be someone ‘contracted’ and/or ‘approved’ by the U.S. Forestry Service.
Brendan wasn’t ‘Federal’… but is it a similar situation?
Whoever his ‘therapist’ is ( right now ) might have some ‘ties’ to the either Arizona State Forestry or the U.S. Forestry Service… and he’s getting his ‘help’ ( cough, cough ) for free THAT way?
WTKTT – This is a very minor detail, but I know you are a stickler for those, so FYI…the word “Forestry” is commonly used is the titles of state forestry departments but it is the U.S. Forest Service. And I know when you say Forestry Service, it is like nails on a chalkboard for Forest Service employees (and even some former FS employees or USDA-Forest Service employees). I never stopped working for the USFS, they just stopped paying me.
Thank you, Gary. Yes. Very confusing… so forgive me now ( and in the future ) if I get confused about what ALL the different people who work for agencies that have the word “Forestry’ in their title actually like to call themselves.
In this case… I really could care less who is or isn’t annoyed.
What I’d like to know NOW is…
Since some stupid, unprofessional lawyers that work for the Arizona Attorney General’s office ( and are ‘tasked’ with representing ‘Arizona Forestry’ against ADOSH ) have unnecessarily broadcasted that a key witness in the case has a diagnosed medical treatment… and his ‘therapist’ is actually influencing the case proceedings…
…then WHO is that ‘therapist’ now ‘influencing the proceedings’?
Is it…
1) A ‘private’ therapist that has no association with any agency that has the word ‘Forestry’ or ‘Fire’ in their title… and he/she is working for Brendan ‘pro bono’ like (apparently) his lawyer ( Shapiro ) is?
2) A ‘therapist’ that has been ASSIGNED and/or CHOSEN for Brendan by some ‘agency’ and that ‘agency’ is footing the bill?
3) A ‘therapist’ who may or may not be associated with any ‘agency’ that has the word ‘Forestry’ or ‘Fire’ in its title… but IS associated with one of the ‘legal teams’… and that ‘legal team’ is ‘footing the bill’ for Brendan’s ‘therapy’?
4) A ‘therapist’ directly associated with Vicki Minor’s “Wildland Firefighter Foundation” and the bill for this ‘therapist’ is being paid through some ’employer/employee’ benefit situation?
5) None of the above?
It is the unprofessional behavior of the Arizona Forestry lawyers that has now made it common knowledge that this ‘therapist’ is the one who caused Brendan’s already-scheduled and arranged deposition to be ‘cancelled’ back on February 26.
Thanks to them… this ‘therapist’ him/herself has now become ‘part of the story’ that is playing out.
So at some point… the actual ‘affiliations’ and/or ‘loyalties’ of this ‘therapist’ him/herself needs to also become ‘part of the story’.
Once again… here is that single sentence from the recently published ALJ Hearing documents which proves beyond a shadow of a doubt that this mysterious ‘therapist’ is now having a direct influence on the progress of the “Arizona Forestry versus ADOSH” legal proceedings…
————————————————————
The parties had to postpone the deposition because Mr. McDonough’s therapist stated that it would adversely affect the therapist’s work and progress with Mr. McDonough.
————————————————————
Notice that there is NO mention there that ‘the parties’ even bothered to consult with Brendan McDonough himself about this.
It was/is the THERAPIST ‘running the show’.
Okay. Fine. Whatever.
So WHO IS this ‘therapist’ now ‘running the show’?
What are his/her credentials?
What are his/her affiliations and/or loyalties?
Who is PAYING this therapist?
Yes, I did contact OSHA with some additional information that is already in file but pointed it out in regards to recent topics.
Who are OSHA’s lawyers?
They left a fantastic detail message…thank you whoever you were but as many know my cell to retrieve messages come out spaced and choppy. Better to email so I get clear message.
I just pass Sonny as he types away on Brendan.
I saw again my name and he wrote I was excited about the fire storm and I said I watched it and not in excitement like fireworks; ugh.
Not accurate.
Again, long hikes that week.
I was tired and spent.
We had alerted everyone on the hill about the fire.
I was at ease watching the fire.
I did not see the danger like Sonny.
Sonny is really a rugged mountain man and knows storms and lightning and fires by life experiences and I did not see the harm when he took off the longer way because at 1:11pm I felt I had plenty of time to get to the cattle pond than to McCrary’s than to Foothill UNTIL we saw videos and it covers a fire over by McCrary and Paul Silvia’s so nowadays I want more aerial footage from 1-4pm in that area to determine my own danger as Sonny feels we were in danger I stand strong saying I need more fact based information before I share such a detail.
I saw video but I need a time stamp on that video and very very curious HOW that fire began by Paul Silvia, very curious. So curious I hope the person out there reading this understands my curiosity on it. That does not add up. Hearing homeowners accounts do not add up to SAIR. Another odd thing, not one of these lawyers or investigators hiked even the community with us where we can point out where and who we saw these accounts from…I mean if I am investigating it I want every tiny detail…
WTKT covered Donut well. Certainly a counselor would want him to get the truth out there so he could relieve the pressure of knowing he is doing a great disservice to his fellow firefighters by keeping back the truth of what he knows about the fire. Keeping vital information to this investigation hidden in his sub conscious mind will only haunt his psyche and may even evidence itself in other illnesses. I do have a BA in psychology and masters in religion backed by two years of graduate studies in counseling and educational psychology. Whew would I ever advise to get these things off his back–the sooner the better. Yes some will be badly hurt by the facts, especially those who know it and want it hidden; however, the honoralble thing will benefit the majority of the loved ones and even more crucial is the fact it will show the errors that were committed in this atrocity.
Joy’s shirt logo says “Change the ways they fight wildfires” and “remember 6-30-13”. She has that right, and to sweep the truth under the rug here is bound to cost lives, money and resources if future methods alike what we saw in the Yarnell hoot-nanny.
Joy did call OSHA and received thanks from their attorneys. Donut was indeed in dire danger even before we left the fire scene from the location he was planted at during the time we were there on the two track, I think he did not, or someone did not know how much danger he was in but from where he was below the grader on that little hill in Harper Canyon.
What I saw when that fire exploded not far from him should have been a signal to get out of harms way in a hurry, yet he had determined to go to the old grader spot, I suppose because it has some clearing–perhaps 30 ft. at most around it. Well that was not enough since the old dried rubber on that old grader caught fire from the intense heat coming from beyond the 30 foot clearing. Old tin cans that were lead sealed near the clearing had the lead melted from the seal, so if that ATV had not appeared, Donut would have been among the deceased.
Oddly, we witnessed a wildfire that no amount of ground pounders could have stopped, yet neither Donut nor those men seemed to sense the danger they were in. Even Joy had her boots off watching the fire storm when I returned to retrieve her from where I hoped she would still be. Maybe the site was too much like the fireworks you see in big cities–mesmerizing. Add the heat of the day and stress of exhaustion and Dr. Ted Putnam’s expressions of the psychological factors in firefighting come to light. It certainly stands to reason that had those men been of sober thinking that day, no amount of cajoling or strict adherence to the wild fire sign that says to be a hot shot you must “strictly obey orders” have caused them to go down there.
Strictly Obey Orders meant to disobey all safety rules in this case and caused their deaths. Who gave those strict orders remains in question at this time, yet Sonny here believes that Marsh and Steed were lower men on the chain of command. When Nixon denied any order involving the White Water incident, or Obama in the latest episode of passing the buck, it is obvious they were covering their tracks
Hear now:. Dead men don’t talk–yet they do.
Reply to Sonny post on April 17, 2015 at 11:46 am
>> Sonny said…
>>
>> WTKT covered Donut well. Certainly a counselor would
>> want him to get the truth out there so he could relieve
>> the pressure of knowing he is doing a great disservice
>> to his fellow firefighters by keeping back the truth of
>> what he knows about the fire.
Well… what we CERTAINLY know now ( thanks to the unprofessional behavior of the Arizona Forestry lawyers ) is that THIS particular ‘therapist’ ( whoever he or she really is ) definitely did NOT want his/her client ( Brendan ) to “get the truth out” back on February 26, 2015.
We also know for CERTAIN ( due to recent mainstream media articles ), that back in the last part of 2014… Brendan McDonough himself very much DID want to “get the truth out” and he wanted all these people who keep pretending to be his “friends” and “advisers” to help him do that the the RIGHT and PROPER way ( via a sworn deposition ).
So somewhere between November 26 of 2014 and just prior to February 26, 2015 ( just 90 days )… everything changed… and it appears to all be on the advice of just one mysterious ‘therapist’.
>> Sonny also wrote…
>>
>> Keeping vital information to this investigation hidden in
>> his subconscious mind will only haunt his psyche and
>> may even evidence itself in other illnesses. I do have a
>> BA in psychology and masters in religion backed by
>> two years of graduate studies in counseling and
>> educational psychology.
>>
>> Whew would I ever advise to get these things off his
>> back–the sooner the better.
I have none of those ‘degrees’… and I am in no position to tell any ‘therapist’ how they are supposed to do THEIR job… but I, myself, would still like to see the reasoning on the part of any ( supposed ) therapist as to why it would NOT be a good idea for Brendan to tell “the whole TRUTH, and nothing BUT the TRUTH”… as he should have done in the first place… and as he has recently said he WANTS to do.
That is what we are being asked to believe, now.
That some (supposedly?) licensed and trained therapist does NOT think it is a good idea to let his/her client do what they have already SAID they WANT to do.
It begs the questions… WHO is this ‘therapist’ now actually controlling the agenda of an Arizona legal proceeding… and WHAT are his/her ‘affiliations’ and or ‘loyalties’ in this matter?
Is this ‘therapist’ associated, in any way, with either the Prescott Fire Department, Arizona Forestry, or even the U.S. Forestry Service?
Is Brendan McDonough REALLY getting the competent, independent professional help he needs at this point… or is the poor guy still buried up to his neck in OTHER people’s AGENDAS?
>> Sonny also said…
>>
>> Yes some will be badly hurt by the facts, especially those
>> who know it and want it hidden; however, the honorable
>> thing will benefit the majority of the loved ones and even
>> more crucial is the fact it will show the errors that were
>> committed in this atrocity.
There can be no full LEARNING without the TRUTH.
The families of most of ‘the fallen’ know that… and have stated over and over and over again that they want to know the full TRUTH… no matter what it is. They have gone to great trouble to file lawsuits with the specific expressed intent of ‘discovering’ the TRUTH.
To ignore THEIR wishes is to be truly ( and actively ) ‘dishonoring the fallen’.
In a little conversation WTKTT and I were having regarding Native American thinking and physics downstream, WTKTT wrote:
“The ‘physicist’ in me is very aware of all that.
One of the most fundamental beliefs in most Native American religious belief systems is that we ( you, I, every living thing ) are not ‘separate’ from the environment we find ourselves in… we are, indeed, PART of it.”
This little conversation led me back into re-membering where I had my mind turned around regarding the significance of the fact that Native Americans (and possibly most other indigenous people) don’t have nouns (i.e.) THINGS in their vocabulary, thus in their worldview. Which is why they are in dialogue with physicists these days.
For three years I participated in this thing called SEED. It evolved out of conversations that took place in the early 1990s between some physicists and some Native Americans who were really interested/involved in SCIENCE.
SEED eventually located itself in Albuquerque. And, thus I participated in its annual conferences for three years, beginning in 2002. I can’t remember whether it was the 2002 gathering or the 2003 gathering, but one of them was either in the shadow of either 911 or the invasion of Iraq, which became “the question” we applied ourselves to. It was really quite intense.
Anyway, I went wandering off into YouTube today to see if I could find anything related to it. I did.
I am going to post some of the videos I found, in which this whole arena regarding the differences between, and also the dialogue between, Native American thinkers and scientists (especially physicists) are relatively succinctly described.
I’m doing this here for two reasons.
One of them is related to how I have been viewing this fire. As I have been watching these videos and thinking about how my involvement in SEED had a huge impact in my own thinking, I have been realizing how much my process of “modeling” this fire in my own head is influenced by what I learned via SEED.
The other reason is that, as I have been wandering around this whole thing over the past year, I have become more and more aware of how important have been the contributions of Native Americans in both fighting wildfires and working towards mitigating them in advance.
One of the things I really want to do this year is to study that even more. So as I watched some of the SEED videos today, I kept thinking, hmmmmmmm, is it possible that that different way of perceiving the Universe and the way things flux within it, might be worth paying attention to in the realm of handling the role of fire on the landscape and also corralling the ponies when they get out of control?
The first video I’m posting is a 21-minute talk by a man named Leroy Little Bear. He was one of the co-founders of SEED. He is Blackfeet, Canadian. In this talk he relatively consisely describes what I think is at the heart of this conversation that is known as SEED.
Indigenous Knowledge and Western Science: Dr. Leroy Little Bear Talk
“Published on Jan 14, 2015
Indigenous academic Leroy Little Bear compares the foundational base of Blackfoot knowledge to quantum physics to an attentive audience at The Banff Centre as part of the Indigenous Knowledge and Western Science: Contrasts and Similarities event.
Leroy Little Bear is a member of the Blood Tribe of the Blackfoot Confederacy. He has served as a legal and constitutional advisor to the Assembly of First Nations and has served on many influential committees, commissions, and boards dealing with First Nations issues. He is a faculty member of Indigenous Leadership and Management at The Banff Centre.
Little Bear has written several articles and co-edited three books including Pathways to Self-Determination: Canadian Indians and the Canadian State (1984), Quest for Justice: Aboriginal Peoples and Aboriginal Rights (1985), and Governments in Conflict and Indian Nations in Canada (1988). Little Bear is also contributor to Reclaiming Indigenous Voice and Vision (UBC Press, 2000). He has maintained a lifelong professional interest in the philosophy of science, especially theoretical physics, from a First Nations perspective.”
https://youtu.be/gJSJ28eEUjI
The next video I am posting is an interview with a Native
American scientist by the name of Phillip Duran, who also talks about the differences/similarities in Native-American and European-American thinking and science.
Phillip Duran at the SEED Language of Spirit Conference
“Uploaded on Apr 8, 2011
Video presented by the Foundation for Global Humanity (http://www.f4gh.org/home). Albuquerque based SEED Graduate Institute has hosted a meeting of the minds between quantum physicists, Native American scholars, and linguists to discuss the underlying principles of the Universe, based on a mutual respect for their differences in worldviews. The format followed the late David Bohm’s work “On Dialogue”.
Phillip H. Duran, descendent of the Tigua Indians (not enrolled), earned B.S. and M.S. degrees at the University of Texas at El Paso, where he also conducted physics research, developed computer software, and taught courses in physics, mathematics, computer assembler language, and computer science. He currently resides in Rio Rancho, NM as an independent author, lecturer, and consultant. He is Vice President of the board of directors of Hamaatsa, a Native non-profit organization, assisting in the establishment of an eco-retreat center and indigenous learning model whose purpose is to promote spiritural wholeness and healing systems from traditional cultures and to revive indigenous life-ways and sustainable land stewardship principles for restoring our world.”
https://youtu.be/4W_5u6gRJpI
The next video I am posting is from that of a Non-Native-American by the name of Matthew Bronson, who speaks of how these interactions via SEED have impacted his thinking. There is a longer 2-part video available of this, but I’m posting the shorter, more succinct one.
Matthew Bronson interview at SEED Language of Spirit Conference
“Uploaded on Jun 18, 2010
Video presented by the Foundation for Global Humanity (http://www.f4gh.org). Albuquerque based SEED Graduate Institute has hosted a meeting of the minds between quantum physicists, Native American scholars, and linguists to discuss the underlying principles of the Universe, based on a mutual respect for their differences in worldviews. The format followed the late David Bohm’s work “On Dialogue”.
Matthew C. Bronson, Ph.D., is Associate Professor in the Department of Social and Cultural Anthropology and Director of Academic Assessment at the California Institute of Integral Studies in San Francisco. He is also a teacher educator at the University of California, Davis specializing in preparing high school teachers to respond to linguistic and cultural diversity.”
https://youtu.be/aNZThSgDDJE
And, finally, I am posting a much long speech given by Leroy Little Bear, at the Heard Museum in 2011 (published by Arizona State University) in which he goes into MUCH greater detail about the topics he discussed in the video above.
Leroy Little Bear: Native Science and Western Science (Video)
“The Library Channel is pleased to present the seventh installment of The Simon Ortiz and Labriola Center Lecture on Indigenous Land, Culture, and Community. Leroy Little Bear, Head of the SEED Graduate Institute, former Director of the American Indian Program at Harvard University and Professor Emeritus of Native Studies at the University of Lethbridge delivers his lecture Native Science and Western Science: Possibilities for a Powerful Collaboration.
Professor Little Bear believes now is the time for a collaboration between “Western Science” and “Indigenous Knowledge.” In the lecture he discusses the tenants or foundation of Indigenous thought and compares them to the Western paradigm. It is time to tap Indigenous knowledge as native languages can explain things that are paradoxes in English – such as “dynamics without motion” where Indigenous language explains nature without depending on the other language of math.
………
Delving even further he discusses the holistic, Native paradigm where everything is in flux (moving, changing) existing in energy waves. The energy waves are referred to as spirit. Everything is animate – so everything has spirit and is related. In that flux there are regular patterns that humans seek out to renew and sustain themselves.”
https://lib.asu.edu/librarychannel/2011/05/16/ep114_littlebear
There is a Blackfeet Interagency Hotshot Crew based in Browning, Montana, near Glacier National Park.
Fire Warriors. Chief Mountain Hot Shots. Directed by Darren Kipp
“Published on May 13, 2014
Fire Warriors. The film crew from 360 Degree Films spends 21 days on the fire line with the Chief Mountain Hot Shots from the Blackfeet Indian Nation during the most dangerous fire season in recorded history. The Chief Mountain Hot Shots are recognized as one of the best wild land fire fighting crews in the United States. The project brought together filmmakers George Burdeau, Robert DeMarce, Jeff Gritz, Andy George, Greg Ives, Darren Kipp, and Sam Mowry. Instrumental in the development of the project was legendary filmmaker Phil Lucas. Fire Warriors documents the strength and hard work of the Chief Mountain Hot Shots and is dedicated to all the fire fighters who never give up.”
https://youtu.be/Mg2hVB8llcs
Looks like more legal papers have shown up in the ALJ hearing file.
The State and ADOSH legal arguments.
Also the State wants to drop the portion on McDonough so he will not have to testify
some due to his mental state.
Sounds like the tribunal is making no headway in any agreements.
Reply to Bob Powers post on April 15, 2015 at 1:30 pm
>> Bob Powers said…
>>
>> Looks like more legal papers have shown up in the ALJ hearing file.
Direct link to the new document ( posted just a few hours ago )…
Filename: “2015_04 Updated 04.13.15.pdf”
https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B6N47Z5CNR-CbkFYZ3FlQ1ptNEU/edit?pli=1
The file was created 2 days ago… but only ‘uploaded’ today.
>> Bob Powers said…
>>
>> Also the State wants to drop the portion on McDonough so he will not have
>> to testify some due to his mental state.
Yes… but they are only seeking to ‘minimize’ what he has to testify to.
They are still acknowledging that his testimony is important.
We also now finally learn WHY the already-scheduled February 26, 2015 under-oath deposition was cancelled. ( Actually… the lawyers now just say it has been ‘postponed’,
meaning they still plan on re-scheduling it ).
It was because McDonough’s therapist didn’t want it to happen.
From the document itself…
———————————————————————————-
According to counsel for Mr. McDonough and Mr. McDonough’s therapist,
Mr. McDonough is suffering from post-traumatic stress disorder (“PTSD”)
arriving out of his involvement and survival of the Fire. Mr. McDonough’s
deposition was scheduled previously, but the parties had to postpone
the deposition because Mr. McDonough’s therapist stated that it would
adversely affect the therapist’s work and progress with Mr. McDonough.
Mr. McDonough’s testimony is important, but the extent to which he
must recount the events surrounding the Fire should be minimized.
———————————————————————————-
So here we see the Arizona Forestry lawyers trying to tell Judge Mosesso that Brendan has been OFFICIALLY diagnosed with “PTSD”… but without providing any letter from any therapist or doctor to back up their claim. That actually makes it “hearsay” on their part.
They are asking Judge Michael A. Mosesso to basically just “take their word for it” and make critical decisions ( in their favor ) in the case proceedings based on just that.
>> Bob Powers also wrote…
>>
>> Sounds like the tribunal is making no headway in any agreements.
Correct. There is NO SIGN of any ‘settlement’ here.
I haven’t finished reading the whole thing yet… but it’s really seems to just be a continuation of Arizona Forestry’s previously filed motions requesting Judge Mosesso to go ahead and DISMISS some of the ADOSH citations as ‘baseless’.
In particular… they want Judge Mosesso to dismiss the part where ADOSH established that Brendan McDonough himself was put in “danger of injury or death” that day.
Arizona Forestry says this is ‘baseless’ and not supported by any evidence.
Yea, right.
Brendan himself told ADOSH he was ‘looking for a place to deploy’ right around the moment when Brian Frisby ACCIDENTALLY stumbled across him and was then able to basically save his life that day.
Mike Dudley, the Co-Lead of the SAIT investigation… has also stated publicly ( on June 20, 2014 ) that if Brendan had not ACCIDENTALLY been rescued by Frisby that there is (his words) “No doubt Brendan would have been another casualty that day”.
The Arizona Forestry lawyers are also basically trying to tell Judge Mosesso what his JOB is… and that even though this isn’t even a ‘civil court case’… that he has the right to issue ‘dispositive orders’ and drop some/all of the ADOSH citations before even the evidential hearings take place.
NOTE: A ‘dispositive’ motion or order means what you would think. It is intended to DISPOSE of something… like some/all of the ADOSH citations.
This kind of “here’s how we think you should do your job” shit from the Arizona Forestry lawyers probably isn’t going to fly too many kites, here.
It’s pretty arrogant… and Judge Mosesso might even have a BAD reaction to being ‘lectured’ in this manner as to what his duties and responsibilities are.
I’m still reading the rest of this new ALJ Hearing document.
More later.
PS: The ‘recent’ media articles revealing that Brendan McDonough has only recently ‘inquired’ about a possible ‘medical disability pension’ actually fit right into the TIMING of this new back-and-forth between the Arizona Forestry lawyers and Judge Mosesso.
Even if Brendan KNEW he didn’t have a chance in hell of obtaining this ‘medical disablility’… the act of ‘inquiring about it’ itself became a piece of NEWS which now SUPPORTS the claims the Arizona Forestry lawyers are making to Judge Mosesso.
Simply ‘inquiring about’ or even actually ‘applying’ for a ‘medical disability’ is by no means proof you actually HAVE one… but it does make it look like you MIGHT.
It would not surprise me at all that if Arizona Forestry now just expects Judge Mosesso to “take their word for it” that Brendan has full-blown PTSD… and they want the Judge to make rulings in THEIR favor because of it…
…that Judge Mosesso could shoot right back and ask them to PROVE what they are just asking him to (simply) believe.
Followup…
The Arizona Forestry lawyers seem to have totally forgotten that it wasn’t just the ADOSH investigators that concluded that Brendan McDonough came VERY close to losing his life that day.
SAIT Co-Lead Mike Dudley had already come to the same conclusion months before that.
There had never been any doubt in Dudley’s mind that if Brian Frisby hadn’t ACCIDENTALLY stumbled across Brendan when he did… and was then able to ‘rescue’ Brendan… that Brendan would have been the ‘first fatality’ that day.
Here is exactly what SAIT Co-Lead Mike Dudley told that roomful of firefighters in Utah on June 20, 2014…
SAIT Co-Lead Mike Dudley…
———————————————————————–
The Blue Ridge superintendent… he was drivin’ the UTV… he’s picking
up the lookout… he’s getting his crew ready to bail out… he’s gathering
them up… and he knows he’s gotta move his buggies and Granite
Mountain’s buggies… so he’s multi-tasking through this process as
he’s tryin’ to have this communication.
I will also say… that if he had not come around the corner at the
time that he did… the lookout woulda been the first fatality.
Guaranteed.
There was NO place for that lookout to have safely
deployed… and he was WAY too close when he decided to
bail out from where the fire was.
———————————————————————-
I don’t know what to say.
I don’t like the looks of this at all. Everybody is just jerking out their own agendas on him. It makes my stomach turn.
OF COURSE he has PTSD. Nobody in their right mind wouldn’t.
You wrote a little ways down below:
“That just increases my concerns at to whether anyone is REALLY ‘watching’ him closely and is REALLY concerned about HIS welfare… and not their OWN agendas.”
I’ve felt that way since about day one, As you know. That’s why I’ve had a hard time coming down as hard as some others have come down upon him.
And that’s why I mentioned the “surviver guilt” thing down below that Doug helped me recognize and begin to deal with because he went through his own hell with that. LIke seriously. This is really serious stuff.
Like I said, that might have saved my life. As in “been there, done that.”
I even just looked at Twitter, and he hasn’t posted anything since he said “Hello Twitter!” 37 days ago.
And, yeah, I’m seriously wondering about the whole thing regarding WFF. Maybe they’re aware and doing something to support Brendan besides paying him and………maybe they’re not.
My next thought is that if my daughter were in something like Brendan’s shoes, I just don’t know. But I think she would come to me. I would hope so.
We’ve always had our ups and downs, but I’ve always been there on the other end of the phone for her no matter what.
Which leads me to what kind of relationship does he have with his parents, the mother of his child, is he floating around in space without any kind of genuine support from them????
Between this crappola and that of the USFS, whatever any of them say about lah dee dah SAFETY is just oh SO IMPORTANT…..
I just might be at a place where I may never believe one iota of that apparent BS ever again.
Which also is connected to my totally cynical feelings about those oooh-la-la shelters. Which is a whole NUTHER deal.
I don’t pray much. But I have, I think, a whole lot of, all things considered, a pretty good collection of angels. I’m sending them out in the direction of Prescott.
Federal WFFs are ‘entitled’ to have ‘paid-for’ sessions with a ‘therapist’ if there is evidence of work-related PTSD… but that ‘therapist’ has to be ‘approved’ and/or ‘selected’ by the U.S. Forestry Service.
Now that we KNOW Brendan is seeing a ‘therapist’ ( thanks to the unprofessional Arizona State Forestry lawyers )… could it be a similar situation for Brendan.
Brendan was not ‘Federal’…. but could his ‘arrangement’ be similar?
He is getting his ‘therapy’ paid-for by either Prescott Fire Department and/or Arizona Forestry ( or maybe even U.S. Forestry anyway )… but the ‘therapist’ is of THEIR choosing… and not HIS?
In other words… is it possible even this ‘therapist’ might have ‘ties’ to the Fire Service and might even have his/her OWN damn ‘agenda’ and/or ‘loyalties’?
Gary Olson-
the person who comments on article…
Gaelyn Olmsted, the Geogypsy
Here is her blog and her story is on there on Yarnell Hill Fire.
geogypsytraveler.c o m /category/places-ive-been/united-states/arizona/yarnell/
She stayed on widowed/retired Roberta Era’s property that burned down (Lakewood Dr)
I will never stop encouraging people who were AT the YHF or resided there in that community to share your accounts no matter how tiny it is…
I may not pop on here much and I may be out caving and doing other things but indeed every moment I even try to think I am away from the YHF and its aftermath God tells me WHO has the plan as once stated somewhere in regards to the YHF that God has the plan.
Now, I am in the library trying to get Sonny’s laptop to work and I noticed him typing away and a I passed by I did not want to disturb him but saw my name mentioned…ugh. I truly have stayed away to avoid my name used here directly or by another so no more further tangles can be made (recently only for 2015 commented/thanked Mr. Winston for his purity and sharing on here; we need much more like him on here)…it seems he is typing about the back burns. We are hiking pals. We saw that fire from different perceptions. I am going to directly state if you GO BACK to October 2013 archives where my journey first began on here…re-read the many rambles than you will see as time unfolded from October 2013 through December 2014 that I indeed wrote everything as it happened and my view on that topic is already journaled on here . Someone thinks I have been on Investigative Media since the start and not true. We were sent a link to the article after we did a hike with John Dougherty in the Fall 2013 and I left the site at the start of this year. We made inquiries and as well answered people’s questions October 2013 article and just popped on here and there after that. This site is not viewed by some as a good thing yet I have never denied hikes and always been upfront and available to the world in regards to the YHF and who the hikers are and why we were on the Weavers…I am sorry this site is not viewed as I view it- A PLACE OF FREEDOM OF SPEECH- (to an extent)…I know FROM THIS SITE, I learned a valuable lesson. I also think of this site as Marti Reed calls—campfire discussions—a place to go when you want to know what is new on the YHF. It has had its ups and downs…and before the fire you would only find me on hike Arizona or zazzle and I am not an internet gal so I learned this discussion on fire and all its details mainly from here and the people God led to us. We learned what division was even from people we hiked to people even on here. My hardest lesson was learning agendas and angles and also people telling hikers stuff but not investigators because they are afraid to lose their jobs, etc…Sad.
In direct to what Sonny is writing about. Yes, last Summer I did see photos and video that made it appear to be a back burn and YES I heard locals accounts yet their accounts have never been further investigated. Yes, I hiked with many but a few who “knew” the GMHS dearly and now for the woozy that has Sonny thinking of this right now most likely… We have not been on this site in recent months yet behind the scenes it is obvious God has the plan and in due time we will share all the people God LED TO US since 2015 to now to OSHA/John Dougherty and some on here/Dr. Ted Putnam. We have discussed this as eyewitness hikers on the YHF and because John Dougherty has kept this thread alive and strong he will be first than the others I just mentioned. If John decides he wants to do an article on the news we will not tell anyone else and let him have his story.
I hope everyone is doing well—
Enjoy your Spring!
I have to go see what Sonny wrote…I have to state this that a lot of the historical moments on this site I kept coming back just for that to see what he wrote because I do correct areas needed as WHO WANTS TO KNOW THE TRUTH knows that about me from back to the beginnings that was all I was doing…smiles.
Thank you Joy.
I’m so glad you posted this here, Joy!! So glad you are up and about and doing your thing!!
I really loved reading Gaelyn Olmsted, the Geogypsy’s blog, one part of which I actually tweeted out last night. (Even though she uses a Nikon for her AWESOME photography, my FAVORITE being that one of the Weaver Mountains shrouded in clouds as that February storm covered the southwest — I DO remember that storm!!)
You wrote:
“In direct to what Sonny is writing about. Yes, last Summer I did see photos and video that made it appear to be a back burn and YES I heard locals accounts yet their accounts have never been further investigated.”
I have to admit two things regarding what both you and Sonny are writing about.
1). I haven’t seen any visual evidence of this, as WTKTT is also saying he hasn’t, either. But then, as you say, we haven’t seen everything.
2). I have been harboring, on a shelf in a closet with only the door slightly cracked. something of what might be considered a “conspiracy theory” about this.
I spent some time, periodically, contemplating the fact that, as I “looked at,” in various ways, where the crews were during that crucial 3:30ish to 4:30ish time period, I mostly couldn’t come up with anybody that’s on the official rosters (or even the unofficial ones i.e. the “Prescotteers”), who would/could have been on the ground in a place where they could/would have been doing any back-burning.
Except, as I have been really hesitant to say this, the two fire-fighters by the name of Rance Marquez and Cougan Carothers, which is WHY I have, periodically, written that it really bothers me that their testimony to ADOSH doesn’t match the EVIDENCE that I have been able to discern via the visual files.
Those are the only people in the corral of people involved in this fire whose locations at that time are, in my humble opinion, questionable.
I’m not saying they decided to go somewhere and light a back-fire. I’m just saying that, since their testimony doesn’t match the visual records we have at this point. I’ve been, all along, wondering about that.
And who knows??????
As I have studied a whole lot of wildfires this past year, I’ve seen that a LOT of CIVILIANS who may or may not KNOW BETTER have periodically decided to take matters into their own hands and done back-burns themselves.
That happened quite a bit in Washington last summer/fall during the conflagration known as the Carlton Complex.
So, yeah, I think this is an important question. And I agree with WTKTT that where we are currently at remains shrouded in mystery.
I would say having seen other fires close to towns and homes that people without knowledge will some times set back fires. Having said that I would also clarify that those fires are usually in close proximity to houses and property.
While not normally well planed or of any danger to others they would blind in with the main fire and smoke column.
Fire Fighters on the other hand would not set large back fires with out some coordination or in a dire emergency. To my knowledge no back firing was reported by Fire fighters when the fire blew up they were all moving out to safety.
on the north and east sides of the fire. There was no time to fire the cat line.
My personal opinion is if there were seperiate smoke columns they were coming from spot fires that quickly were engulfed by the main fire.
The Humidity, Temperatures, fuel moisture and wind were highly probable for spot fires when the fire started making runs. In peoples Valley and Yarnell as well as Glen Isla spot fire were probably causing havoc in the residential areas where there was brush and grass and flammable materials on homes.
Again I doubt that any back fires would have threatened Fire Fighters but were last minuet ditch efforts for some people trying to save homes and they would have stayed to long at that point to have survived the fire. So highly unlikely.
I need to make a correction. I wrote:
“I mostly couldn’t come up with anybody that’s on the official rosters (or even the unofficial ones i.e. the “Prescotteers”), who would/could have been on the ground in a place where they could/would have been doing any back-burning.”
That’s not quite true. Darrell Willis’ Structure Protection Group DID do a backfire off of Model Creek Road starting around 3:30ish PM. And, yes, as Bob Powers wrote, that was all coordinated by Willis and “signed off” by Paul Musser, who was there personally on the ground at the start of it.
That might be what Sonny is referring to when he noted back-firing near Peeples Valley.
And thanks, Bob, for the reminder that what people could have been seeing was spot fires. That makes a lot of sense.
It makes way more sense than my “conspiracy theory,” so I’ll scratch Marquez and Cougan off the list, even though I STILL wonder why their narrative doesn’t match the evidence.
Especially, given all the detail Rance went into via his “notes” and his interview.
I confess I have had something of a hard time distinguishing “back-burn” from “burn-out,” as a newbie.
Back Burn/Burnout—-They are the same depends on terminology verses
new safer terminology..
Back Burn—Burning fuel between a line and the fire as the fire approaches
Burn out— Burning fuel to increase safe area before fire approaches but within the fire lines or planed fire area.
They don’t like to say back fire any more.
If you are interested, here is a very powerful short piece written by someone who has followed and written about the Yarnell Hill Fire from the very beginning.
http://www.christinanealson.blogspot.com/
Thanks Gary—
Thank you, Gary. Yes. Very poignant, moving… and very well written.
I agree with the author that that ‘stone monument’ is ‘out of scale’.
It is TOO BIG, too close to the tree, and if it is true that it is just all about Granite Mountain and doesn’t even bother to really talk about the actual historical significance of the tree itself… then that is unfortunate and doesn’t really establish the significance of what they did there.
And the solar-powered plastic angel is just… well… a little weird.
Someone told me “There’s a concrete “monument” in front of the tree now. Waaaaay larger than it needs to be, as if someone is working out their guilt”
I tend to agree with this assessment..
Reply to Gary Olson post on April 14, 2015 at 9:40 pm
>> Gary said…
>>
>> Someone told me “There’s a concrete “monument” in front
>> of the tree now. Waaaaay larger than it needs to be, as if
>> someone is working out their guilt”
>>
>> I tend to agree with this assessment..
So that got me wondering… WHO put this thing there… and WHEN?
Best I can find out… it was sponsored by the U.S. Forestry Service and they started working on it about a week before the first anniversary of the Yarnell Hill Fire tragedy.
The following story came out on the very day of the 1 year anniversary of the tragedy.
It details a ‘visit’ that Prescott College Environmental Studies Professor Doug made to the tree along with some of his students and they ‘accidentally’ ran in Brendan McDonough there at the tree.
It was not planned. Apparently… Brendan has simply been THERE at the tree by himself and he had no idea that ‘group’ would find him there.
It also puts a timestamp on when that ‘concrete monument’ was actually being installed… and WHO was doing it.
It was the U.S. Forestry Service… and they had started working on it just about a week before the first anniversary of the tragedy.
It was Bradshaw District Ranger Linda Jackson who is talking about the ‘monument’ in the article and it may have been mostly her idea, perhaps along with Prescott Forest Fire Staff Officer Pete Gordon.
The Prescott Daily Courier
Hotshot tribute: Community memorializes Hotshots in variety of ways
Pulblished 6/30/2014 6:01:00 AM
http://dcourier.com/main.asp?SectionID=1&SubSectionID=1&ArticleID=133328
From the article…
————————————————————————————
“It’s become kind of a living memorial,” said Hulmes, who recently took a group of visiting Norwegian students to the tree to help document it.
While there, Hulmes’ group ran into surviving Granite Mountain Hotshot Brendan McDonough, who explained to the students the Hotshots’ role in saving the tree.
Hulmes said he heard later from students who referred to their visit to the juniper tree as the most memorable part of their trip.
This past week, a U.S. Forest Service crew was working at the site of the tree to build a concrete plaque that would further memorialize the Hotshots’ history with the mammoth juniper.
Bradshaw District Ranger Linda Jackson said the plaque will explain the Hotshots’ dedication to the tree. “It tells the story of what they did out there, and why,” she said.
“The tree was really important to them, and (saving it) was one of the last things they did with us,” Jackson added. “Knowing how important the saving of that tree was, we wanted to honor them by displaying a plaque there. It will be in memory of them.”
Forest Service Fire Staff Officer Pete Gordon emphasized the emotional attachment the Forest Service has with the tree, and he urges any visitors to “tread lightly.”
“This is more than just a tree,” Gordon said. “We ask people to please, please respect the environmental conditions. We’re worried about the tree being stressed.”
————————————————————————————
Followup…
This has nothing to do with the ‘concrete monument’ at the tree… but while searching around I found this other ‘interesting’ story about people doing visits to the tree… and calling them ‘pilgrimages’…. and then performing ‘ceremonies’ there…
Walt Anderson’s story of a ‘pilgrimage’ ( his word ) he led to the Juniper Tree exactly one year ago on this date ( April 14, 2013 ).
He and about 30 others held some kind of ‘ceremony’ there where they were picking cards out of a deck at random and then reading off the name on the card. The cards alternated between names of Granite Mountain Hotshots and the names of tree species that have become extinct… or something like that.
A little weird… but it’s well written…
http://www.geolobo.com/?p=500
CORRECTION… Typo up above.
Walt Anderson’s self-described ‘pilgrimage’ to the Juniper Tree with about 30 other people happened on April 14, 2014… and not April 14, 2013 as I typed above. It was exactly one year ago from TODAY.
Again… that article is here…
GEOLOBO – The Personal Website of Walt Anderson
Article Title: The Hotshots & the Juniper
http://www.geolobo.com/?p=500
I actually hadn’t noticed this before… but apparently the same Prescott Professor named Doug Hulmes was also on THIS ‘pilgrimage’ to the tree… and he actually ends up telling the SAME story to Doug Hulmes and the others about how when he, himself, led some students to the tree on a previous occasion… they accidentally encountered Brendan McDonough there at the tree already.
From the article…
————————————————————-
When we reach the two trailheads at the end of the fire road, the rules change. We walk the final mile to the ancient juniper in complete silence. There is an air of anticipation.
We reach the revered juniper, pausing in the burned area to the north. Here Doug Hulmes, Prescott College professor and champion of sacred trees, explains how he and a group of students from Norway chanced to encounter the sole surviving member of the Granite Mountain Hotshots at this very tree not long ago.
————————————————————
Crap… another TYPO up above.
I type Professor Doub Hulmes name TWICE and the second time it should have been the name Walt Anderson.
On this ‘pilgrimage’ to the Juniper tree… it was Doug Hulmes himself telling his story TO Walt Anderson and the others about having accidentally met Brendan McDonough there at the tree ( by himself ) on a previous occasion.
Actually, that ceremony is not all that “weird.”
(I do think that angel is weird, though, but then, …… it’s also kind of “Prescott-weird.”)
I have also worked with Michael Dowd and, to a lesser extent, Connie Barlow.
One name for this “field” is “Ecological Spirituality.” It’s about understanding and celebrating the sacredness of nature. It’s not a new thing these days, but……….
In the early 1980’s, when I was the Minister at First Congregational Church in Flagstaff, I was at something of the forefront of this, at that time, “movement.”
I felt like I was almost alone in the Universe. Creation Spirituality was a very very very new thing to “The Church.” Doug was one of the people who supported my work, and Michael was one of my, I guess you could say, long-distance “mentors.”
The Paul Winter Consort (at that time the Artists in Residence at St. John the Divine Cathedral in New York City), when they were making their awesome recordings on the Colorado River and around the Grand Canyon, would come to my church and we would do services together.
Their “Missa Gaia” (Earth Mass) was both a breakthrough into understanding and freedom and a big massive juniper tree, I guess you could say, for me.
It rooted everything I was doing, from leading “sacred journeys” into the Grand Canyon, to doing outdoor wedding and memorial ceremonies all around Northern Arizona, to trying to stop a uranium mine on the south side of the Grand Canyon.
I had the following of every “environmentalist” (including some of the the pros at NAU — and the river-runners, too!) in the area.
It was only the Trustees who, ahem, weren’t so happy with me, because the “environmentalists” didn’t have the big incomes to fill the meager church coffers.
In those days, doing what the narrative you have pointed describes, with/for/in honor of the Great-Grandmother Juniper and “her boys” would have been second-nature for me, but definitely “weird” in the eyes of many.
These days, in Northern Arizona, as well as a lot of other places, it happens all the time.
And, speaking of “Evolutionary” Creation Spirituality (as opposed to the fundamentalist thing called “Creationism” which fundamentalists think should be taught instead of scientific evolutionary theory)……
I also later wrote for Lowell Observatory, having been hired by someone who had been a member of my church when I was the Minister. I wrote about stuff like cosmic astronomical evolution, something else that most people had/still have a hard time with because it was/is a radical departure from everything they had been taught about the Universe and their place in it.
I know because it even really shook up MY cosmology, and, I had been a student of evolution from probably birth (given who my father was),
I/we also folded that evolutionary cosmology into Creation Spirituality (the other key person in this arena being Matthew Fox) we were “evolving.”
I could go on and on about this. I did that, professionally, for 35 years.
It probably even played a part in that moment when I “saw” that camera sitting there in the middle of that Deployment Site and KNEW it was trying to tell me something important.
Kyrie from the Missa Gaia (Earth Mass):
“The Alaskan tundra wolf whose voice this Kyrie was based on, sings the same four-note howl seven times in an interval known as the tritone – the sax, tenor solo voices and chorus answering. The double-bell rhythm comes from Ghana.”
https://youtu.be/RDOe52U-oXY
Along those same lines, this, done by me while I spent the summer of 2010 citizen-investigating the intervention into the Deepwater Horizon catastrophe:
“Ocean Intervention Rov 2 Swims Through the Fish”
“On her very last day at the Deepwater Horizon Well Site, Ocean Intervention Rov 2 Dives and Surfaces Through Stunning Schools of Fish
With music by the Paul Winter Consort, “Sea Joy,” from the album named “Callings.””
These are my very very favorite robots (speaking of robots, as y’all conversed about downstream) on the entire planet. I experienced the bottom of the one-mile-deep Gulf of Mexico through their eyes for seven and a half months.
The combination of unspeakable joy and unspeakable tragedy is so well accompanied by this music from the Paul Winter Consort.
https://youtu.be/F3BMaEZTTyM
19 people died here, too, almost exactly five years ago.
I just had to share this kind of stuff to ritually counteract “Tax Day.”
LOL. Yes. Speaking of ‘rituals’.
This annual one where massive amounts of money are collected only from people who aren’t rich enough to hire the right people who can HIDE their income is a real doozy.
Bingo!
So it’s really really late, and I may regret writing this but, just to set the record straight.
I almost married Doug, and maybe should have. He’s an amazing guy.
I’m pretty sure he doesn’t like that piece of ugly concrete any better than we do.
And, now that I’ve said that, and am thinking about that……
He should be the one “counseling” Brendan.
Having been through the experience himself, he was the person who taught me about “surviver guilt.”
That probably saved my life.
Marti… thank you for all the comments above.
When I said ‘a little weird’… I was referring to the ‘ceremony’ itself, and not anyone’s ‘beliefs’ or ‘motivations’.
Pulling cards from a deck just sounds like something the Masons would do… and I find the ‘ceremonies’ they do a little ‘weird’, also.
The ‘beliefs’ you are describing all sound very ‘Native American’ ish… and I have no problem with that.
It would do us ALL good to remember that this is the only planet we have.
I think saying/writing it as “pulling cards from a deck” is just kind of an unfortunate way of saying it.
It’s just a common way of doing something in a random order.
And, yes, I/we were heavily “shaped” by both Native American and Buddhist “thinking.”
Regarding the Native American side of that, it got/gets a bit tricky in regards to “exploitive cultural appropriation.”
That was then, and still is, a HUGE issue.
Fortunately, I was VERY CAREFULLY trained by the International Indian Treaty Council, who had a vested interest in me not screwing things up and me teaching other people how to not screw things up, either.
But it can get dicey.
So, yes.
Speaking of which.
Are you aware that Native American “cosmology,” and thus language, includes no things/nouns?
That’s why there’s been a great conversation going on over the last ten years between indigenous folks and physicists.
They understand the same things almost exactly in the same ways.
Well… as long as we are sharing… yes… I am.
The ‘physicist’ in me is very aware of all that.
One of the most fundamental beliefs in most Native American religious belief systems is that we ( you, I, every living thing ) are not ‘separate’ from the environment we find ourselves in… we are, indeed, PART of it.
Most NA cultures believed, for example, that just the fact that we BREATHE ( as in… we INHALE an we EXHALE ) means that everywhere we go while we are alive… we breathe IN a part of the ‘place’ where we are… and we also ‘leave a part of ourselves’ there in that ‘place’ ( because we also EXHALE ).
From a pure ‘physics’ perspective… that is actually TRUE.
So it is no wonder, then, that for a very long time into the future… many will believe that that Juniper tree is a place where some ‘essence’ of the men who saved it still exists there, in that place, when THEY were THERE and alive… and vibrant… and (yes) happy.
Reply to Marti Reed post on April 15, 2015 at 1:28 am
>> Marti said…
>>
>>
>> I’m pretty sure he doesn’t like that piece of ugly
>> concrete any better than we do.
Actually… if he respects that tree ( and the surrounding natural environment ) as much as he seems to… he probably thinks it is even WAAAY more ‘inappropriate’ than we do.
I sure as hell hope those Forestry people didn’t disturb the root system when they were digging and pouring that CONCRETE base.
It really is WAAAY too CLOSE to the tree.
If they wanted there to just be a ‘plaque’ out there… they had a lot of other options. They just didn’t think about it enough.
Exactly.
Just another case of not thinking things through enough.
Hmmmmmmmmmmm…….
Where have we seen THAT before???????
The other ‘takeaway’ from these ‘stories’ I found of people doing what they call ‘pilgrimages’ to the tree was that ‘overlapping’ story of Brendan McDonough being ‘accidentally’ found out there at the tree.
The stories seem to suggest he was there all by himself.
That just increases my concerns at to whether anyone is REALLY ‘watching’ him closely and is REALLY concerned about HIS welfare… and not their OWN agendas.
It’s pretty disturbing to think that Brendan has actually been WORKING for what appears to be one of the only organized groups meant to HELP firefighters who might be suffering PTSD… and that he has been closely tied with this organization for OVER A YEAR…
…yet he is still looking into applying for PTSD related medical pension.
What does that tell us about the ability of this organization he, himself, WORKS for to actually get people ( their own employee included ) the RIGHT help they need.
I know this organization Brendan works for has had its problems lately having to answer for their behavior and the way they have been spending all the money they have received since June 30, 2013…
…but if this is the primary GO TO organization for WFFs in need of help recovering from a tragic experience… I think a hard look needs to be taken at their actual ability to actually DO anything for these people as well.
In other words… maybe it’s time the Forestry Service itself had BETTER options here instead of just relying on an organization started by someone who use to run lunch wagons at WFF campsites.
You said:
“maybe it’s time the Forestry Service itself had BETTER options here instead of just relying on an organization started by someone who use to run lunch wagons at WFF campsites.”
I just really don’t believe the USFS actually gives a damn.
I haven’t seen any proof of that at all in any of this. Not at all.
Gary Olson-
the person who comments on article…
Gaelyn Olmsted, the Geogypsy
Here is her blog and her story is on there on Yarnell Hill Fire.
http://geogypsytraveler.com/category/places-ive-been/united-states/arizona/yarnell/
She stayed on widowed/retired Roberta Era’s property that burned down (Lakewood Dr)
I will never stop encouraging people who were AT the YHF or resided there in that community to share your accounts no matter how tiny it is…
I may not pop on here much and I may be out caving and doing other things but indeed every moment I even try to think I am away from the YHF and its aftermath God tells me WHO has the plan as once stated somewhere in regards to the YHF that God has the plan.
Now, I am in the library trying to get Sonny’s laptop to work and I noticed him typing away and a I passed by I did not want to disturb him but saw my name mentioned…ugh. I truly have stayed away to avoid my name used here directly or by another so no more further tangles can be made (recently only for 2015 commented/thanked Mr. Winston for his purity and sharing on here; we need much more like him on here)…it seems he is typing about the back burns. We are hiking pals. We saw that fire from different perceptions. I am going to directly state if you GO BACK to October 2013 archives where my journey first began on here…re-read the many rambles than you will see as time unfolded from October 2013 through December 2014 that I indeed wrote everything as it happened and my view on that topic is already journaled on here . Someone thinks I have been on Investigative Media since the start and not true. We were sent a link to the article after we did a hike with John Dougherty in the Fall 2013 and I left the site at the start of this year. We made inquiries and as well answered people’s questions October 2013 article and just popped on here and there after that. This site is not viewed by some as a good thing yet I have never denied hikes and always been upfront and available to the world in regards to the YHF and who the hikers are and why we were on the Weavers…I am sorry this site is not viewed as I view it- A PLACE OF FREEDOM OF SPEECH- (to an extent)…I know FROM THIS SITE, I learned a valuable lesson. I also think of this site as Marti Reed calls—campfire discussions—a place to go when you want to know what is new on the YHF. It has had its ups and downs…and before the fire you would only find me on hike Arizona or zazzle and I am not an internet gal so I learned this discussion on fire and all its details mainly from here and the people God led to us. We learned what division was even from people we hiked to people even on here. My hardest lesson was learning agendas and angles and also people telling hikers stuff but not investigators because they are afraid to lose their jobs, etc…Sad.
In direct to what Sonny is writing about. Yes, last Summer I did see photos and video that made it appear to be a back burn and YES I heard locals accounts yet their accounts have never been further investigated. Yes, I hiked with many but a few who “knew” the GMHS dearly and now for the woozy that has Sonny thinking of this right now most likely… We have not been on this site in recent months yet behind the scenes it is obvious God has the plan and in due time we will share all the people God LED TO US since 2015 to now to OSHA/John Dougherty and some on here/Dr. Ted Putnam. We have discussed this as eyewitness hikers on the YHF and because John Dougherty has kept this thread alive and strong he will be first than the others I just mentioned. If John decides he wants to do an article on the news we will not tell anyone else and let him have his story.
I hope everyone is doing well—
Enjoy your Spring!
I have to go see what Sonny wrote…I have to state this that a lot of the historical moments on this site I kept coming back just for that to see what he wrote because I do correct areas needed as WHO WANTS TO KNOW THE TRUTH knows that about me from back to the beginnings that was all I was doing…smiles.
**
** MORE ANALYSIS REGARDING THE PRESCOTT ICMA REPORT
On Saturday ( April 11 ), Prescott eNews ran Lynne LaMaster’s latest ‘analysis’ of the differences between Joe Stutler’s original “Wildland’ report for the Prescott ICMA study and what the Prescott City Council saw in the end.
She makes it perfectly clear what was different between the two… but there is no new information about WHO actually made all these obvious changes between Stutler’s original draft and what then appeared in the final ICMA report.
Prescott eNews
Article Title: Changes to the ICMA Report: The Differences are Clear Featured
Published: 11.Apr.2015 Lynne LaMaster
http://www.prescottenews.com/index.php/news/current-news/item/25268-changes-to-the-icma-report-the-differenc
es-are-clear
While it is true that BOTH the original and the final drafts were obviously presenting a ‘Clear and present DANGER’ of a CATASTROPHIC Widlfire incident in and around Prescott… even the FsPro and FARSITE computer modeling information presented in Stutler’s original draft were ‘edited’ in subtle ways in the final version of the report.
One of the obvious changes that Lynne LaMaster did NOT document in her article was the following entire paragraph from Stutler’s original draft that was TOTALLY EXCLUDED from the final draft.
It’s the part where Stutler was listing what ‘additional consequences’ could be expected in the even of a CATASTROPHIC Wildfire event in and/or around Prescott.
From Joe Stutler’s original draft…
—————————————————————————
2. The political risk for both elected officials and local government
officials/leaders would be significant given the wildland fire risk is both
KNOWN and WELL DOCUMENTED, and sufficient mitigation to reduce
the risk is NOT taken and maintained.
—————————————————————————
It is also true, however, ( and Lynne LaMaster fails to mention this ) that once even Joe Stutler became aware of how much his original report had been ‘edited’… he filed a formal objection with the people that paid him for his work ( the ICMA itself ).
That led to an actual CONFERENCE CALL that included Stutler, ICMA reps, the Prescott Deputy City Manager, and (current) Prescott Fire Chief Dennis Light.
During that conference call… both Stutler’s original draft and the final report were compared and discussed… and Joe Stutler himself says he was then ‘satisfied’ that the actual decision makers in Prescott were now FULLY AWARE of everything he had reported and was originally recommending.
That is why Joe Stutler eventually ‘signed off’ on the ICMA report.
He says he was convinced that the people who were actually going to make the actual BUSNESS decisions for Prescott ( The City Managers and the Fire Chief ) had seen “everything there was to see” and could never claim they had not been ‘fully briefed’ and ‘fully informed’ about the real dangers of a CATASTROPHIC Widlfire event happening there in Prescott.
They were now free to ‘make their own business decisions’… and ‘own’ them.
There has still been no comment from the Prescott City Council about all this, even after Jon Paladini submitted his ‘report’ back to them regarding these ‘changes’ that were obviously made ( by WHO? ICMA people? Prescott people? ) to the 3rd party contractor’s original reports and what was in the ‘final’ report.
There MIGHT be more to come on this… but maybe not.
The CHANGES were obvious… but the ‘business decisions’ have also already been made.
Darrell Willis obviously does not LIKE the ‘business decision’ that were made ( he lost his double-dipping job as Prescott Wildland Division Chief because of them )… but it is still unknown what ( if anything ) Darrell Willis plans on doing about it all.
CORRECTION for above… I was wrong.
Lynne LaMaster’s article DOES catch the part where Stutler’s original warning about ‘political consequences’ ended up being TOTALLY EXCLUDED from the final report.
It is actually in her ‘Other Differences’ sections and she reported it this way…
———————————————————————
Stutler:
“The political risk for both elected officials and local government officials/leaders would be significant given the wild land fire risk is both known and well documented, and sufficient mitigation to reduce the risk is not taken and maintained.”
Final:
Omitted.
———————————————————————-
So I’m basically quite late in replying to this, but I owe it to you.
Thank you!!
I really appreciate her description of all of this. As a matter of fact, I was somewhat waiting with baited breath for it. I think she did a good job of it.
When this erupted earlier, I went back and looked at both of the Stutler reports, and sensed several differences, but it was too late and I was too braindead to delve into them, much less post them here. I’m glad she had the time to put them up side-by-side and describe them.
I really believe two things.
1) Stutler saw himself as a person hired to do the task of “analyzing” the risk that Prescott was facing and the resources they had in facing that, and then giving “his” recommendations regarding that. But that’s as far as he believed his task went. Which, all things considered,from his viewpoint, is understandable.
2) The people who decided to hire this company already, at the time they hired it, had an Opinion of what they wanted. They wanted something “less expensive” and “less risky” in terms of the benefits they decided they didn’t want to be held responsible for. Because they already sensed they “couldn’t afford it.”
Since Stutler saw his role the way he saw it, he was comfortable “handing off” the “business” decisions to the people in charge of the “business” decisions.
I still think the people in charge of the “business” decisions may be making a HUMONGOUS mistake. All things considered.
There is a “CoreLogic” Wildfire Risk Report, released early this year, which examines the residential properties potentially exposed to wildfire risk in 13 western states. It is quite interesting.
From what I have seen in it, Prescott is way more at risk from wildfire than most of any of the other cities they looked at, including Albuquerque, which to my eyes, seems to be taking these risks way more seriously than Prescott is, at this time.
Here is the link to the CoreLogic Wildfire Hazard Risk Report:
http://www.corelogic.com/research/wildfire-risk-report/2015-wildfire-hazard-risk-report.pdf
**
** ADOSH LAWYERS WANT TO SEE THE SAIT ‘MANAGEMENT REPORT’
** THAT THEY WERE REQUIRED TO PRODUCE.
Still combing through the latest ALJ Hearing file document(s) that were posted just a week ago ( April 6 ).
In the latest document covering exchanges ( so far ) in April… there are more responses from Arizona Forestry to ADOSH’s requests for things that are SUPPOSED to be in Arizona Forestry’s possession.
This is all still part of the ‘Discovery’ process taking place and that the ‘Exchange of documents/evidence’ that has been taking place since last year.
In this latest ALJ document we now learn that ADOSH wants Arizona Forestry to produce the ‘Management Report’ that was SUPPOSED to be one of the ‘paid for’ deliverables coming out of Jim Karel’s and Mike Dudley’s ‘Special Accident Investigation’.
We also now see the Arizona Forestry lawyers ‘playing STUPID’ on this and pretending they have no idea what ADOSH is even referring to.
The strategy there ( on the part of Arizona Forestry ) is that if they simply ‘PLAY STUPID’ on this… then they don’t have to explain to either ADOSH or Judge Mosesso why Jim Karels and Mike Dudley never even bothered to even DO this ‘Management Report’ that the were contracted to produce.
The latest ALJ Hearing File document ( uploaded on April 6 ) is…
“2015_04 Updated 04.06.15.pdf”
From that document…
—————————————————————————————-
ADOSH: REQUEST FOR PRODCUTION NO. 16:
Produce the “Management Evaluation Report” relating to June 2013 Yarnell Hill Fire
ASFD: RESPONSE TO REQUEST FOR PRODCUTION NO. 16:
Respondent ( Arizona Forestry ) is unfamiliar with a document entitled “Management Evaluation Report” ( the “Report” ) and therefore cannot produce the Report. If ADOSH is more specific as to tge document to which the Request refers, ASFD is willing to undertake additional steps to respond to the Request. As it stands, ASFD does not possess responsive documents to this this Request.
—————————————————————————————–
NOTE: The ‘tge’ in the paragraph above is the same spelling error seen in the original document filed by the Arizona Forestry lawyers. It was obviously supposed to be the word ‘the’.
The ‘Management Evaluation Report’ that ADOSH is referring to is the one that Jim Karels and Mike Dudley were specifically REQUIRED to produce along with the ‘Factual Report’ as one of the paid-for ‘deliverables’ coming out of their SAIT investigation.
They were specifically ORDERED to produce that ‘Management Evaluation Report’ in the actual ‘Delegation of Authority’ letter that created the SAIT itself.
The official “Delegation of Authority” letter, signed by Arizona State Forester Scott Hunt on July 3, 2013, is the document that allowed the “Special Accident Investigation Team” to start investigating the Yarnell Hill Incident on behalf of Arizona State Forestry.
It is also the document that specifically told the SAIT what their JOB was, and the ‘deliverables’ ( documents ) they were REQUIRED to produce.
Here is the full text of that “Delegation of Authority” document that was reproduced in the actual SAIR report itself as ‘Appendix G’…
—————————————————————————————–
To: Janice K. Brewer – Governor of Arizona
From: Scott Hunt – Arizona State Forester
Arizona State Forestry Division
Office of the State Forester
1110 W. Washington St., Suite 100
Phonenix, AZ 85007
(602) 771-1400
Serious Accident Investigation Team Delegation of Authority
On the afternoon of June 30, 2013, nineteen members of the Granite Mountain Type 1 Hotshot Crew from Prescott, Arizona were killed while fighting the Yarnell Hill Fire.
As the State Forester of Arizona, I authorize Jim Karel’s Serious Accident Investigation Team to conduct the accident review of the Yarnell Hill Fire.
This delegation is to perform the serious accident review of the Yarnell Hill Fire with the final objective of providing a FACTUAL and MANAGEMENT report for accident prevention.
I also authorize Mike Dudley as the Deputy Team Leader.
Your duties INCLUDE but are not limited to:
1. Organizing, conducting, and controlling the accident investigation.
2. Providing for in briefings and out briefings with affected agency officials.
3. Coordinating information exchange between team members, local law enforcement, coroner’s office, and others.
4. Requesting techincal, logistical, or other support as required to conduct the investigation.
5. Assist the State Forester’s information staff with addressing the media on your makeup, purpose, methodology, and estimated timelines, including attending press conferences if necessary.
6. The Forestry Division shall be the final repository for all team paperwork and reports.
7. Provide the following formal briefing reports:
A) Expanded Report ( 72 Hours )
B) Factual AND Management Report.
SIGNED by…
Scott Hunter – 7-3-13
Jim Karels, Team Leader, SAIT – 7-3-13
Mike Dudley, Deuputy Team Leader, SAIT – 7-3-13
—————————————————————————————–
The two relevant parts of this ‘Delegation of Authority’ document are…
—————————————————————————————–
This delegation is to perform the serious accident review of the Yarnell Hill Fire with the final objective of providing a FACTUAL and MANAGEMENT report for accident prevention.
Your duties INCLUDE but are not limited to:
7. Provide the following formal briefing reports:
A) Expanded Report ( 72 Hours )
B) Factual and Management Report.
—————————————————————————————–
So Arizona Forestry knows damn well what ‘Management Report’ ADOSH is referring to.
But as long as the Arizona Forestry lawyers ‘STAY STUPID’ about it and pretend they don’t even know what ADOSH is referring to, then they don’t even have to explain why this ‘Management Report’ that the SAIT was REQUIRED to produce was never actually done.
This MANAGEMENT report was SUPPOSED to NOT be one of these ‘Facilitated Learning Analysis’ (FLA) style reports and was SUPPOSED to be just a detailed report targeted for Fire Service Management about what ACTUALLY happened that day.
Jim Karels, Mike Dudley ( and the SAIT ) CHOSE to NOT produce this report, even though they were being PAID to do so, and Arizona Forestry was OK with that.
If ADOSH comes back and clarifies this request ( easily done )… it’s going to be hard for the Arizona Forestry lawyers to keep ‘PLAYING STUPID’ on this and we might ( finally ) see an explanation as to WHY this critical ‘Management Report’ was never even produced.
**
** AZCENTRAL EDITORIAL SAYS BRENDAN MUST BE DEPOSED
Four days after AZCENTRAL first broke the story about what City Attorney Jon Palladini was told Brendan McDonough knows… AZCENTRAL actually published their own editiorial about this.
It says flat-out that there is NO QUESTION now that Brendan MUST be deposed, under-oath.
AZCENTRAL
Article Title: Force out the truth of the Yarnell Hill inferno
Published 6:25 p.m. MST April 7, 2015 by the AZCENTRAL Editorial Board
http://www.azcentral.com/story/opinion/editorial/2015/04/07/force-out-truth-yarnell-hill-inferno/25439121/
From the article…
———————————————————————————–
Brendan McDonough, the lone survivor of the Granite Mountain Hotshots,
MUST be compelled to testify under oath to what he heard over the radio
on the day his 19 friends died.
We need to know…
What happened?
What did McDonough hear?
Why did they leave the black?
———————————————————————————–
Exactly-Donut continues to have a hole in it. There are other questions to be asked of Donut if and when our illustrious investigators become willing to put him under oath. One that bothers me is the fact that there were plenty of backfires being lit–those videos of that rock wall and those men in the shrine area lighting fires is enough to make me believe that was the reason that Joy and I barely escaped ourselves with a margin of only about 11 minutes. That also would have blocked the escape route of the 19 once the wind whipped around. From where I was seeing the fire when we left the two track where the men went down, Joy and I would have had plenty of time to escape the route I took, yet when we got to Foothills Drive where my car was parked, people were fleeing like flies with only about ten minutes since the fire was already entering Yarnell and a few hundred yards from us. The streets there were deterring it some, but had people been in the brush they would have perished along with the 19. Donut could have witnessed what backfires were being lighted at the time and heard as well over communications about others. Dr. Ted Putman stated hat he believed if backfires would have been made, it would more likely be to protect the ranch.. We talked to locals who stated they did see backfires being lighted between the Shrine and Sesame and also on the north end of the fire near Peeples Valley. That definetly is something that needs to be addressed–seems like backfires can be a deadly situation under some conditions.
I did mean to add that some photos and video show two separated smoke columns–That can be explained by backfires being lighted distant from the main fire–perhaps time stamps correlated with photos of those fellows lighting the fires with the smoke columns would confirm this. There is much to learn from this mismanaged fire–much that will undoubtedly come out if investigators do their job properly–And if they do–future ways they do things will undoubtedly prevent needless loss of life that we saw here.
I did mean to add that photos and video show separate smoke columns. One column appears separate to the main fire. Time stamps, could verify whether those back fires were set at a time that would have have spelled disaster for the 19. This whole mess of how this fire was handled needs to be cleaned to the bone so that future fire fighting practices improve–needless loss of life like this is a shame to the profession.
sonny… I just thought I would let you know that as I have been working with all 35 video clips that were taken between 4:00 PM and 4:42 PM that Sunday by the ABC15 News Helicopter… I HAVE been paying particular attention to these locations on the ground where people HAVE reported seeing ‘backfires’ being lit that day.
Unfortunately… I can tell you with a fair degree of certainty now that none of the aerial footage shot by this ABC15 New Helicopter sheds any more real light on that.
The ABC15 News Helicopter never ‘focused’ on the outskirts of either Yarnell or Glen Ilah, and any ‘background’ views of those areas sort of remains hidden and shrouded by the smoke of the main column(s).
I am still not finished analyzing all these ABC15 Helicopter video clips… but it is doubtful any of them are going to show any real evidence of any ‘backburns’ being lit out there ahead of the main firelines that day.
Joy tells me to let you know that we are going by photos and video and testimony that we have seen and heard, yet the people have not gone public with.the evidence. Joy can identify the people with these photos to investigators, something I am sure they would share if approached. Likely some of them have offered the evidence. Perhaps they got the response we got when we offered over 1500 photos that Joy took that day. We were told the photos were not important. Seems they had it all figured out without having to look into much detail. Nineteen men lost and you would have thought they would jump on any related detail. They still seem reluctant and instead of thanking us, we have been harassed to some extent for our efforts to get at what you work so hard at.
I would like to see some billionaire who cares about firefighters lives hire the likes of you, JD, Dr. Ted Putman, Bob Powers, Marti, and others concerned with the cause of the death of those young firefighters. He would have a top notch team of investigators who could and would get to the bottom of this tragedy. I am sure the comrades at arms would attempt to deter such investigation as they have attempted to discredit this web site and its people attempting to unravel those mysterious deaths.
We are out of the area for the most part and back to our desert abode. The donkey we have is better at investigating than most of what we saw in the Sair efforts, if indeed it were ever an investigation. Even after the report there was too much speaking with forked tongue by those involved in the investigations. I did not see it as much in the OSHA report but one has the feeling those fellows were pressured from higher sources to gloss over this thing– It must be like laying in bed with a rattlesnake that is looking you in the eye. You might be afraid to move– only all they have to worry about is their jobs–yet in this world that might mean your life as well. As a tramp miner I never had that worry–I could always have another job in a day or two, sometimes the same day. We always said shifters (bosses) are a dime a dozen, but miners are hard to find. I once asked a shifter why he would take a shitty joy at seven bucks an hour when he could be a miner making twenty six or more. Too bad in a way firefighters are too much like the army–in mining it is the reverse and the miner is more respected than the boss. Well of course that is relevant–some old worn out miners were bosses and well respected–they just couldn’t cut the mustard anymore. The one I liked best was a guy named Bylon. He brought a lunch with a thermos full of whiskey and we didn’t see him but twice a day–once in the morning and when we woke him up to leave at the end of a shift. We by the way were the best producers since he stayed out of the way. Well trained firefighters are definitely tough–but in the case of going down in that death bowl there has to be something that needs to be changed in the way the wildfire fighters operate–well let me say at least in the Yarnell system we saw that day.
Follow the money says the Gunsmith in Yarnell. He says he has watched the last five or six wildfires and he thinks they all could have been quenched early. Well if they are going to let them go like the Yarnell was, then we definitely need to upgrade the bosses efforts in keeping people alive and protecting property. Someone made a ton of money dropping jumbo jet loads of retardant and running large crews of fire fighters. What they did not expect was to see 19 young dead men as a result. If it was greed, the cost was infinite. But I think there are many factors here–safety issues when that thing had gone ballistic to releasing atomic bomb energy– disregard for weather conditions-disregard for overworked men– and maybe even someone trying to get glory for saving houses. Yet some have been arrogant enough to take glory and stupid enough to say that is what they do — drop down in a deadly situation to save houses.
People buy that crap because they do not have the facts–Thank you Joy, Thank you WTKT, Thank you especially JD for this site and the Bob Powers and Marti’s and those willing to give this their best in honor of those young men and their families and other concerned people who like myself do not have the abilities of what I have seen on this web site. We do want the truth–those lives are worth it.
Yes, Sonny… even apart from the information Brendan McDonough is still ( and has always been ) withholding… there are still a number of ‘mysteries’ to be solved about what was going on that weekend… especially on the fateful Sunday.
Example: We still have no idea what the ‘story’ is with the bulldozer and its operator. Did he really have to ‘ride out’ the firestorm himself inside the cab of either the dozer or the loboy trailer somewhere out there at the bottom of the Sesame clearing?
Was that why someone ( WHO? WHEN? ) told DPS Helicopter Ranger 58 that the dozer operator was ‘unaccounted for’ and another person they were supposed to be ‘searching’ for?
What does this dozer operator know about Gary Cordes’ ‘last-ditch-effort’ plans to try and create another ‘firebreak’ there to protect Glen Ilah… and did those ‘plans’ actually have ANYTHING to do with why Granite Mountain was now ( supposedly ) being ‘ordered’ to get the Boulder Springs Ranch?
And all of that ( the mysterious bulldozer and its equally mysterious operator ) is just ONE of the OTHER ongoing ‘mysteries’ that still needs to be solved.
What is worrisome about if/when Brendan will EVER actually reveal what he has ALWAYS known is the following quote directly from his criminal defense attorney ( David Shapiro ) as reported in the following article…
InvestigativeMEDIA
Article Title: McDonough will testify if legally required
Published April 10, 2015 By John Dougherty
http://www.investigativemedia.com/mcdonough-will-testify-if-legally-required/
From the article…
——————————————————————–
Brendan McDonough will testify if legally required about radio conversations between Granite Mountain Hotshots’ senior leaders in the moments immediately leading up to their deaths and 17 other members of the crew, his attorney says.
“Under certain circumstances, Brendan will tell his story to a court of law,” Prescott attorney Dave Shapiro says in an interview with InvestigativeMedia.com.
——————————————————————–
So, right there, we hear McDonough’s attorney pretty much outlining the ONLY way that Brednan will EVER tell what he knows.
His attorney says it will ONLY be to a “court of law”… and even then… it will ONLY happen (quote) “under certain circumstances”.
As for “to a court of law”… that means that if the ‘wrongful death’ lawsuits gets ‘settled’ out-of-court… then there will BE no active/sitting ‘court’ that can compel McDonough to testify. That case will be ‘closed’ and will NOT be ‘going to court’ if it is settled out-of-court.
The “Arizona Forestry vs. ADOSH” case is not actually a ‘civil court case’. It is simply a set of ‘procedures’ being followed whereby someone accused of workplace violations can CONTEST those citations and ( ultimately ) only results in a HEARING before an ‘Administrative Law Judge’.
This ‘path to a HEARING’ does have some of the same ‘powers’ as the court would in an actual ‘civil court’ case. ALJ Judge Michael A. Mosesso does ‘wear a black robe’ ( as they say ) and he DOES have the power to issue a ‘subpoena’… but he has already stated in previous attempts by Arizona Forestry to get him to subpoena McDonough that he is NOT in the habit of issuing subpoenas for witnesses just to force them to attend depositions.
If the ‘wrongful death’ court suits evaporate ( because of a settlement )… then the only chance left fulfill that part of Mr. David Shapiro’s statement that Brendan will ONLY reveal what he knows to a ‘court of law’… then the only chance that will remain for that to happen is if the “Arizona Forestry vs. ADOSH” case remains active and Judge Mosesso issues a ‘court order’ for Brendan to testify.
But even if that ‘court order’ happens… Mr. Shapiro is also saying there are other ‘circumstances’ that will govern whether or not Brendan agrees to testify.
Mr. Shapiro didn’t SAY what those ‘certain circumstances’ are.
Could one of those ‘other circumstances’ be that McDonough’s attorney will only allow him to testify if the court also agrees to SEAL that testimony?
In other words… ONLY the Judge and the Lawyers in the case get to ever actually see/hear what Brendan knows… and that information will remained as SEALED EVIDENCE in that court proceeding?
More come about all this, I’m sure.
And as Marti Reed has said any number of times…
“This fire isn’t even remotely done burning yet”.
Seems that Donut does have somewhat of a guilty conscience for withholding information.. He has taken in so much adoration and now it is fading–that must hurt. If he really wanted to be a good man he would feel the harm he is doing to the many lives that are connected to the deaths of those l9 men. They deserve the truth and no more bull shit about this tragedy. The only way Donut will save face and live clean is to come forward with the truth. He does not need a lawyer, Willis or anyone else to speak for him. The people know he did not cause their deaths but they do know his is withholding what he knows and for that he will always be considered a coward and liar. Yet if he comes forward as he should he will regain the respect he would deserve. It is sad Donut when you withhold things that demand to be revealed so people can have closure for the loss of their loved ones. If the likes of you had been involved in the situation where my son died back in 1999, you would definitely be on my shit list until you came clean and revealed the facts I needed to know. All the glory you have taken would mean nothing to me–you would have revealed yourself to be a scoundrel without conscience. Go right be true not a mouse afraid of daylight.
Reply to Sonny post on April 14, 2015 at 3:44 pm
>> Sonny said…
>>
>> The only way Donut will save face and live clean is to come
>> forward with the truth. He does not need a lawyer, Willis
>> or anyone else to speak for him.
No, he doesn’t. Last time I checked… First Amendment rights to “Freedom of Speech” were/are still in full affect.
However… Brendan’s PROBLEM now is that he has dug a deep enough hole for himself at this point that he pretty much HAS to get a little ‘dirty’ just to crawl his way back out of it.
What I mean is… no matter WHAT he does now… there are certain ‘camps’ of opinion that aren’t going to fully believe him no matter HOW he chooses to ‘do the right thing’ and do what he should have done in the first place… tell everything he knows relative to the incident.
He COULD just walk into any TV station, go on camera, and just ‘tell his story’… but many will still simply still be thinking “once a LIAR, always LIAR” and will wonder if he isn’t simply still following his own personal agenda, like he did with the original investigations, and either still isn’t telling everything he knows or is still trying to shape the narrative himself in some way.
He COULD also agree to an ‘under-oath’ deposition with no “conditions” or “certain circumstances” ( as his lawyer seems to be saying are now in place )… but even if he puts his hand on large stacks of books representing the tenets of every religion on the planet… there will STILL be some people who are going to doubt he is telling “the truth, the WHOLE truth, and nothing BUT the truth”.
So either way… Brendan is going to get a little ‘dirty’ here as he crawls out of this hole he has dug for himself.
Personally… I think it would be a MISTAKE for him to just walk into a TV station at this point.
This nonsense has gone on for so long now… I think he DOES need a “Lawyer” beside him and it DOES need to be officially SWORN testimony ( under penalty of perjury ).
I think that is the ONLY way for him to stay the ‘cleanest’ as he crawls out of this hole and have the best chance of having the greatest number of people ‘accepting’ his testimony as the TRUTH… and putting this all behind him once and for all.
My 2 cents, anyway.
Well said on this WTKT–I am too much of an optimist thinking he might come forward on his own– With coaches we definitely will get a tainted version, however, you are right that he will have a hard time saving face now and maybe a lawyer is his best hope to do that.
For Brendan’s own GOOD now… it is all about having whatever he has to say now being BELIEVED as the TRUTH.
His BEST chance for that is an ‘under-oath’ deposition/session that actually has potential penalties for ‘perjury’ associated with it.
That will give HIM the best chance at being BELIEVED… which is what he ultimately NEEDS for his own peace of mind, here.
And that is really the main goal here.
It’s not going to do this young man any real good to ‘spill his guts’ but still have people looking at him sideways for the rest of his life.
At least an ‘under-oath’ session will give him the best chance of reducing those ‘sideways looks’.
SOME will probably still not ‘believe’ him… or even openly still CHALLENGE what he says… but if he SWEARS to tell the truth like we ALL have to do from time to time… then MOST people WILL believe that whatever he says about what happened that day really is what happened that day.
He has no BEST option at this point… but I believe the ‘deposition’ route is better than just the ‘TV station’ option.
This really is a classic case of “the only real cure is prevention”.
His BEST option was to have never ‘dug this hole’ for himself in the first place.
**
** MORE NEWS ABOUT THE NEW FIRE SHELTER DEVELOPMENT
There are now ( supposedly ) only 5 ( FIVE ) days left before Arizona Forestry runs out of time to reach any kind of ‘settlement’ in the Yarnell Hill Fire ‘wrongful death’ lawsuits.
The Judge in the case had only agreed to keep the court calendar in this case ‘frozen’ for another 30 days back on March 17, 2015… so that only give Arizona Forestry five more days ( until April 17 ) to reach a ‘settlement’ with the plaintiffs before the whole thing is back on track for the courtroom again.
Sure enough… we mysteriously continue to see even MORE news articles suddenly ‘popping’ up about this ( supposed ) NEW Fire Shelter being worked on by the U.S. Forestry Service.
We NOW learn that David Turbyfill ( father of deceased GM Hotshot Travis Turbyfill ) HAS, in fact, been being allowed to participate in this design process.
David Turbyfill was allowed to submit his research data and list of materials that HE has been testing to the people in charge of this ‘new’ fire shelter project.
The person in charge of it happens to be Tony Pertrilli, who was a member of the original SAIT team that investigated the Yarnell Hill tragedy on behalf of Arizona Forestry.
Here is a NEW article about this ‘New Fire Shelter’ design that appeared only
yesterday in the Prescott Daily Courier…
The Prescott Daily Courier
Article Title: Development of next-gen fire shelter moves to next stage
Published 4/11/2015 6:01:00 AM by Joanna Dodder Nellans
http://dcourier.com/main.asp?SectionID=1&SubSectionID=1&ArticleID=144044&TM=70375.8
From the article…
———————————————————————————————-
U.S. Forest Service researchers have initially tested approximately 50 materials for the federal government’s next-generation emergency shelter for wildland firefighters.
Federal officials decided to move up their planned 2015 review of fire shelters to 2014, because of the deaths of 19 of Prescott’s Granite Mountain Hotshots on the Yarnell Hill wildfire on June 30, 2013.
New or improved shelters could be in firefighters’ hands as early as 2017, said Tony Petrilli, equipment specialist at the Forest Service’s Missoula Technology and Development Center.
Anyone was welcome to submit materials or designs they thought would work in a fire shelter. The Forest Service has been screening them for strength, durability, flammability, thermal performance and toxicity.
Among those who submitted materials is David Turbyfill of Prescott, father of fallen Granite Mountain Hotshot Travis Turbyfill.
Turbyfill manufactures and welds metal products, so he had no trouble creating a huge burner to blast flames onto the material. He posted the test on You Tube at youtu.be/Ps-OcG70hps.
“To me it was, ‘Prove the idea that there was a material available that would have made the event of June 30, 2013 a survivable event,'” Turbyfill said.
Turbyfill said he found the carbon infused fabric on the Internet. It was designed to shield kilns and industrial furnaces from flames.
———————————————————————————————-
I still can’t help but wonder about the actual TIMING for all these articles suddenly ‘popping’ in the MSM about this ‘new’ fire shelter.
That makes the THIRD major ‘announcement’ ( with increasingly more detail each time ) about these shelters just in the last 3 weeks… all of them right smack in the middle of this ‘mediation’ phase between Arizona Forestry and the ‘plaintiffs’ in the Yarnell Fire ‘wrongful death’ lawsuits.
One of the DEMANDS of the plaintiffs has always been that the WFF industry PROVE it has “Learned Something” ( anything? ) from Yarnell and will actively make CHANGES to industry standards and protocols to try and make sure nothing like Yarnell ever happens again.
So could all of these ‘press releases’ about the ‘new fire shelter’ actually just be tied to those demands… and the U.S. Forestry service is trying to PROVE ( during the actual mediation ) that they are actively at least working to improve SOMETHING following Yarnell?
NOTE: David Turbyfill and his wife ( the parents of Travis Turbyfill ) are NOT officially ‘plaintiffs’ in the wrongful death suits… but Travis’ wife Stephanie Turbyfill is.
Since almost the day after the tragedy… David Turbyfill ( himself an engineer ) has said he would make it one of his ‘missions in life’ to see to it that a NEW Fire Shelter design emerge as a result of the Yarnell Hill tragedy.
Kudos to John D. for his new commentary which came out this morning. It is well stated and includes many of the things we’ve all been thinking,
On another note, most of the recent information that relates to the radio traffic that Brendan allegedly heard of Marsh and Steed discussing their options, states that the discussion was about whether or not to leave the black.
Let’s not forget though, that at that point in time, Steed had no idea of the stunning visual that was going to be presented as he peered down from the top of the bowl while standing at the descent point.
While some narratives in the court filings allege that Brendan also heard a conversation that occurred when the crew reached the descent point, in any case, it is almost assured that another significant discussion DID ensue as Steed and crew came into view of the brush choked bowl, right before the descent.
Most likely, two distinctly separate conversations, with two distinctly separate disagreements. There might be a lesson somewhere in this.
Agree.
Even SAIT Co-Lead Mike Dudley’s statement(s) to that roomful of Utah firefighters on June 20, 2014 specifically said that the MULTIPLE ( as in, from more than one person ) ‘allegations’ they ( the SAIT ) received about an ‘argument’ all said it was at the “saddle” and it was about “which way to go”.
Once again… Mike Dudley’s exact quote on June 20, 2014…
————————————————————————–
There were some allegations that there was an argument between
the Captain and the Superintendent about which way to go… from
that saddle. Some people made that allegation.
————————————————————————–
There really is little doubt that even after whatever continued “comfort level” based conversations took place to convince Steed to bring the men south and out of the black… there must have been a HUGE WTF moment for Steed himself when he reached that saddle and saw the pink ribbon Marsh left pointing down into the canyon.
Even the SAIT sort of ‘got that part right’.
The SAIR report always divided the tragic decision making that afternoon into THREE critical ‘decision points’.
1) The decision to leave the black in the first place
2) The decision to try the ‘shortcut’ through the fuel-filled blind box canyon.
3) The decision to deploy versus trying ANY other option.
For all we know… there might even been a FINAL ( intense ) argument amongst the men themselves regarding decision point (3).
If any of you have time go over to Wild Fire Today and check out the Crew Boss training film
Probably late 40″ but was no different in the 50″s and early 60″s.
No Fire shirts, No Fire Pants No Fire Shelters and no Packs on your back.
Note the Shirt sleeves rolled down when on the fire line.
We wore kacky shirts, blue jeans Cotton or green Cotton paints.
So That might explain why I am classed as old school, Safety was priority.
When we got Fire shelters we carried them but we never wanted to use them and followed
the 10 &13/18. You didn’t look for deployment sites you planed safety zones we did not trust the Fire Shelter and treated it accordingly (POTATO BAKERS). We carried them because we were required to not because we thought we would ever use one.
When you fight fire with out one you learn a different way of protecting yourself.
As Canadians, we never thought of them as a safety option. Just a piece of heavy mandatory gear, that we did not have faith in, so would avoid getting into a scenario where that was the only option left.
Just looked at the crew Boss film again and it is actually early 1960’s
There are some 1960’s trucks in fire camp with the late 50’s green and gray paint jobs.
Reply to rocksteady post on April 11, 2015 at 10:54 am
>> rocksteady said…
>>
>> As Canadians, we never thought of them as a safety option.
>> Just a piece of heavy mandatory gear, that we did not have faith in.
Interesting point.
I wonder if a SURVEY has ever really been taken here in the USA asking the guys/gals who are ‘required’ to ‘carry’ these things whether THEY actually consider it ‘something they have any faith in’.
The moment I saw that initial press conference from the deployment site and the actual Prescott Fire Department Wildland Division Chief ( Darrell Willis ) stood there and could NOT answer a reporter’s question about what the actual ‘upper temperature limit’ was for the fire shelter(s)…
…I said to myself…
“Self… if an actual paid Wildland Division Chief doesn’t even have any frickin’ idea what the upper temperature limit is for these stupid things… then I wonder how many of the people who are supposed to USE them are just as clueless?”
It would be interesting to actually establish that ‘level of ‘cluelessness’.
If there are, in fact, hundreds ( thousands? ) of WFFs out there who don’t even have a clear understanding of what is even SURVIVABLE in these things…
…then ‘back up the bus, sparky’.
“Missoula… we have a PROBLEM”.
WE have had that problem for a long time—-
It is mandentory to go thru the training session on Shelters and yearly refreshers.
in the Federal Gov. Refreshers and every one is told the max heat and space from the fire needed. They also use old shelters or training shelters to deploy in so they understand the use and what to do.
Willis and his lack of knowledge is not an indication of all fire fighters.
While Fire Fighters know the capability of the shelter most practice the safe way to never use them.
The Look for Deployment sites instead of Safety Zones seems to be the new Idea of being able to push the limit and take risks by some who think the 10 and 18 are hillbilly and not modern enough.
My thoughts —- There are really very few deployments vs. numbers of fire fighters which means many are following the safety rules and not putting them selves in a position of ever having to deploy.
How many Fire Fighters do you think after Yarnell are thinking I do not ever want to be in a position to deploy what can I do to never use a fire shelter?
After seeing what happened to Granit Mountain that is a real concern.
Their last resort aint going to get it—-Since the Fire shelter was developed
it has only gone from 500 to 650 degree’s it can withstand. even if it goes to 1500 it is still a potato baker——It will take 4 to 5 years to put a better one on the market in the mean time learn to fight fire so you never have to use one.
I did it many others did it. Canada dose it. Become mental robots with the 10 and 18. Learn every thing you can about Wild Land Fire. Stay alert —-
Fight Fire Aggressively but ALWAYS provide for safety first—-
Amen brother!
I posted this commentary earlier this morning.
http://www.investigativemedia.com/yarnell-hill-fire-investigations-leave-a-shameful-legacy/
Thank you, John, for writing this and also posting it here.
I especially appreciate this:
“The state has abdicated its responsibility to conduct honest and thorough investigations that discover the truth about the events that led to the deaths of 19 young men and to share the information with the public and the families of the deceased.
Instead, Arizona has cruelly shifted that terrible responsibility to McDonough.
The state’s handling of the Yarnell Hill investigations has been shameful and certainly unworthy of the ultimate sacrifice made by the Granite Mountain Hotshots.”
It seems we may now know what happened, but the why I think remains elusive. Why did Marsh pull rank? Why did they have to get to the BSR? A lot of reasons have been advanced and all have been panned here for one reason or another. What plan did Marsh have in mind? Maybe McDonough knows something about that, maybe not. If Marsh had a plan, did he concoct it on his own? Are people in Arizona Forestry seeking to truncate this story even now, even with the new narrative that has come out?
Reply to mike post on April 11, 2015 at 7:18 am
All good questions, mike.
>> mike said…
>>
>> Maybe McDonough knows something about that, maybe not.
I think the only remaining chance to know the WHY is if it was actually mentioned during the earlier “discussing their options” conversations BEFORE the decision was made to ‘leave the safe black’..
They were on a ‘mission’… and unless Steed had consented to the ‘mission’ itself… they would have never left the black at all.
If Brendan and/or any of the Blue Ridge Hotshots didn’t hear THAT part of the “discussing their options” conversation… we’ll probably never really know WHAT the ‘mission’ that Steed had agreed to really was.
I believe that once they DID leave the black… the radio communications were probably then all just ‘tactical’ and the actual REASON they were doing it in the first place was probably no longer even being ‘discussed’.
All that being said…
Don’t forget that there are STILL indications and evidence that point to OTHER people who are still alive having ‘knowldege’ of WHY this move was being made.
Brendan isn’t the only one who still needs to ‘testify’ again and/or be DEPOSED.
Reply to John Dougherty post on April 11, 2015 at 1:41 am
>> John Dougherty said…
>>
>> I posted this commentary earlier this morning.
>>
>> http://www.investigativemedia.com/yarnell-hill-fire-investigations-leave-a-shameful-legacy/
John… thank you for this.
Yes… it’s time for another “Slowly I turned” moment and and time for EVERYONE to take a hard look at the shenanigans that have gone on with the investigations themselves.
As for the failure to even ask Brendan the right questions… I’m not sure we still have the ‘full story’ on that.
I think I’ve said this before but I believe there is still the distinct possibility that the investigators were being PREVENTED from even asking Brendan McDonough certain ‘questions’ and that that ‘stipulation’ was totally ‘off the record’ and arranged PRIOR to Brendan agreeing to ANY interviews.
At ALL THREE of Brendan’s (supposed) interviews… ( SAIT, 2 ADOSH ), there was (supposedly) an attorney sitting there right next to him.
The way the investigators would pull the car right up to the most crucial moments and then NOT ask Brendan the most obvious “Investigations 101” questions at those moments has always ( to me ) indicated that (perhaps) they were told beforehand that Brendan would REFUSE to answer any of those kinds of questions.
There’s a part of me that just cannot even BELIEVE ( and will probably NEVER believe ) that 3 sets of ‘investigators’ could have POSSIBLY been that ‘incompetent’.
Even when Brendan was finally given permission ( by who? ) to talk to the media following the release of the SAIR report… the same situation seemed to still exist.
The initial Prescott Daily Courier interview even stated flat-out that Brendan ( and/or his attorney ) had told them there would be (quote) “Things that Brendan will refuse to talk about”, but even they seemed to not be allowed to even say WHAT those ‘things’ were.
So to this day… I’m not fully convinced myself that there weren’t some “off the record” STIPULATIONS surrounding anyone’s attempt to interview Brendan McDonough… and that means Brendan’s OWN PRIVATE AGENDA has always been a component here in what the investigators were able to find out about June 30, 2013.
Whether that PRIVATE AGENDA was all Brendan’s idea… or whether he was being advised/coached about “what not to talk about” also remains part of the ‘mystery’.
It remains perfectly obvious that even with the questions the investigators DID think to ask Brendan… his responses reflected an obvious ‘coaching’ along the lines of….
“If they ask you about radio conversations… you ONLY have to talk about ones in which you were a direct, active participant. If they ask you about ANY other radio conversations… even ones you might have just overheard… just say things like ‘That wasn’t directed at me’ or ‘That wasn’t my decision’ or “That’s not something I feel comfortable talking about'”.
All THREE of those ‘example’ response above ARE, in fact, things that Brendan SAID back to investigators and interviewers whenever the conversation got close to things he might have just HEARD over the radio.
So there really did seem to be a PLAN, and an AGENDA and some obvious COACHING going on there on Brendan’s side of the table as he was ‘helped’ through these interviews.
WHO did that obvious COACHING?
Was it only his first attorney Emily Dolan?… or was it OTHER people/officials associated with the City of Prescott?
If Brendan is ever deposed… I think even THESE kinds of questions need to be asked.
WTKTT and Marti,
I read down below in the thread a question from Marti as to why a hotshot crew’s line gear can’t be taken off while constructing hand line and in addition to the detailed answer I gave below, there is another simpler answer. The total line gear from an entire hotshot crew would add up to several hundred pounds and make quite a pile.
And although it is probably hard for to you to visualize it, a hotshot crew can really make some time when constructing hand line in a progressive or bump up method. Since the average hand line is only about 18 inches wide and with every crewmember taking a lick, and with entire crew that’s in a groove and that is in rhythm, they can really cover some ground and before you knew it, a crew would be out of sight and quite a distance from their gear, with that distance growing with every tool stroke.
Then the problem comes when you try to bring the crew back together with their gear, does the entire crew hike back and if not, how many crewmembers would have to be taken out of the line to go back and retrieve it? So no…as a practical matter and for lots of reasons, a crew’s line gear has to stay on them.The key to me is to reduce the amount of weight a crew is carrying, there is not else that can be done in terms of carrying methods, they are light years ahead of where we were back in the day. And to really reduce the weight, you would have to able to guarantee flawless logistical support with regular resupply and well…that is not going to happen according to Murphy’s Law.
And specifically for Marti…the photo you were questioning appears to be a photo of a Type II crew comprised of casual or pick-up firefighters and they are treated differently and much less is expected from them for lots or reasons. And yes, for those guy’s strapping an aluminum and hard plastic gallon canteen around their shoulders with water that alone weighs eight pounds in addition to a 50 gallon track bag stuck in their pockets to cut holes in to make a poncho if it rains,well…that is about as good as it gets probably for THOSE kinds of crews even probably.
Also imagine if you can, how much those thin straps on that heavy canteen would cut into your shoulders and how that heavy canteen would feel banging you in the back of your head as you bend over and cut hand line or do other work bending over like mop up for hours on end.
It’s not a just job…it’s an adventure!
whoops I meant to say, “And yes, for those guy’s strapping an aluminum and hard plastic gallon canteen around their shoulders with water that alone weighs eight pounds in addition to a 50 gallon track bag stuck in their pockets to cut holes in to make a poncho if it rains,well…that is about as good as it gets probably for THOSE kinds of crews even probably TODAY.”
So when did pack animals fall ‘out of fashion’, then?
Mules don’t need pension plans, overtime, or even death benefits.
Any of those $250,000 Crew Carriers could easily haul some mule trailers.
Let the mules haul most of that shit… and just require the ground pounders to ALWAYS carry the shelters?
Just thinking out loud.
Well I do think you are right about cutting down on the gear. I have seen photos of those large blue packs the GMHS were carrying and I have wondered what was in them?
WTKTT
Mules—Pack 150 lbs. each that equates to 5 Mules and at least one handler. Some areas where Fire line is built you could never take a mule.
Just my rendering from working with pack animals.
Not sure what todays cost is on a back pack for Fire Fighters but they have been developed to be comfortable.
It depends on what they pack that makes up the weight.
Fire shelter, 8 to 16 lbs of water, 3 meals of food, coats, gloves, first aid kits, fusee’s , sig bottles of chain saw gas and oil, Head lamp and extra batteries, Radio and extra batteries, File, Flagging, Personal items–Cameras, socks, bandanas, Sawyers extra saw parts, file, saw shapes. and Chain Saw.
Not sure the final weight but some where between 30 and 45 Lbs.
I probably missed something but that is close.
A HS crew is outfitted to function for a 24 Hr. Shift. If they are left on the fire for many reasons.
*chuckles*
Having done both packs and mules, I think, for the purpose, I’d vote to stick with the packs.
More chuckles—-
Pack animals don’t like Fire at close range and Planes and Helicopters would scatter them like flies.
Packs are way more convenient——
The engineer in me is now picturing some fuel-cell powered mini-atv style mechanical MULE.
It can go ANYWHERE a man can go.
It never gets ‘spooked’. Not ever.
It never gets tired.
It doesn’t need pension, overtime, or death benefits.
It can carry all the SHIT that the men shouldn’t have to.
One steep further—–ROBOTS—-(FIREPROOF)
Thanks, Gary. Totally makes sense. Especially after watching this:
“Wildland Fire Go Pro Nevada Initial Attack”
https://youtu.be/GtWQ85q31aM
It’s pretty much the only thing I’ve see that shows the almost zen-like nature of building hand-line. And how quickly it moves.
The beginning of the video is a bit bumpy. But then it gets REALLY interesting.
Actually, one of the thoughts I’VE had is how much more comfortable those low-slung packs look than than the higher-up-on-the-back pack I used to haul all over the Grand Canyon.
Maybe they’re not, actually. But if I were still in my back-packing days, I’d surely be interested in trying that design out.
Gary forgot to mention Leap frog line construction in light fuels.
Done with 2 hot shot crews or with squads in the HS crew. very fast and
efficient line to get the max line construction in a fast movement.
Just adding on Gary did a good job of explaining above………..
Yes, I do think you are right, leap frogging is a faster line construction method. Maybe not as clean, but faster.
Packs have gotten a lot better. But the low slung packs are best if you’re bending over to use tools all day, and have a lot of upper body strength. They kind of suck for most women, because it’s tough to shift the weight to the hips. They also throw the weight out further from the body than a traditional hiking pack (think of 4-5 liters of water in a ring around the edge). Hard on the back and shoulders. I guess they’re pretty good for what they do and who uses them. They run about 35 pounds.
Marti, neat video, it say’s it all, the world has really changed, now almost everything is on YouTube.
Interesting related video:
“Wildland Fire – What’s in your Line Pack?” by Wandering Beast uploaded Nov 15, 2011:
https://youtu.be/aujC7wIs4Ys
Comes with a list.
WantsToKnowTheTruth says
April 10, 2015 at 10:04 pm
Reply to Marti Reed post on April 8, 2015 at 12:35 pm
>> Marti said…
>>
>> So, in looking around to find out if Prescott eNews had published what Lynne LaMaster
>> promised in her April 2 article………..
>>
>> “CITY ATTORNEY PALADINI COMPLETES INVESTIGATION OF ICMA ‘TAMPERING”…..
>> “Tomorrow we’ll look at some of the differences between the two reports.”
>>
>> ………which they still haven’t done……
>>
>> I discovered, via a facebook post on Prescott Firefighter’s Last Alarm, that
>> yesterday, on KCYA, there was an interview with Joe Stutler, the person who
>> did the wildland segment of the ICMA Report.
>>
>> The link on that facebook post goes to a website that doesn’t
>> have the interview archived.
>>
>> But KCMA does have it archived and it is here…
>>
>> Original MP3 audio file of this interview with Joe Stutler…
>>
>> http://www.kyca.info/audio/news/STUTLER%20WRAP.mp3
Thank you for finding this, Marti.
And here is a complete TRANSCRIPT of that RADIO interview with Joe Stutler.
** KYCA RADIO INTERVIEW WITH JOE STUTLER
Joe Stutler was the 3rd party contractor hired by ICMA to do the ‘Wildland’ evaluation for the report ICMA was hired to do for the City of Prescott.
Here he is being interviewed ( LIVE ) by radio station KYCA following Darrell Willis’ accusations ( in his own resignation letter ) that that part of the ICMA report was ‘tampered with’…
COMPLETE TRANSCRIPT OF THIS RADIO INTERVIEW
————————————————————————————
Announcer: The report ( in question ) is the wildland section of the ICMA analysis of the Prescott Fire Department. Former Wildland Division Chief Darrell Willis alleged in his letter of resignation last month that someone had tampered with it.
The man who investigated and wrote the wildland report at the request of the International County Management Association ( ICMA ), which had been retained by the City, was Joe Stutler, senior adviser to the Deschutes County Board of Commissioners in Bend, Oregon.
Mr. Stutler… DID someone tamper with your report?
Joe Stutler:
There’s not a yes or no answer there.
I was asked to work with ICMA on the report for the Prescott Fire Department and my particular area of expertise is wildland fire so I came to Prescott and did the interviews and field trip and looked around and so I put my report together and I sent it in to fellow professionals with ICMA that were dealing with EMS and dispatch and structural and the other aspects of Prescott Fire and I sent that in.
Must have been in February of 2014.
And then, ya know, it was like… ah… did not hear ANYTHING for several months despite several efforts to… ya know… coordinate the overall completion of the report.
And, as I recall, somewhere in June I found out that the ICMA report had been completed and submitted to the City of Prescott… and so I contacted ICMA said “Hey… I understand the report has been released. I’d like a copy of it”.
So when I got the copy of the report it was clear that my submissions to the overall report… the wildland thing… had in fact been changed.
If representatives from ICMA would have contacted me and said “Hey, we’re bringing this report together and let’s talk about these specific recommendations and in the context of the overall report”… I would have had that discussion and perhaps we could have reached common ground on some of the recommendations.
As it turned out… there was NO consultation and my report, that I was given credit for, was, in fact, changed.
And I don’t know WHO did that.
The only thing I know is that when I look at MY report and what I submitted and the final ICMA report… they were different.
The recommendations had been changed without any consultation whatsoever and, in fact, they had hired me to… ya know… do my best to represent the risk assessment. What I saw from a wildland fire perspective for Prescott. And so I did that.
And so I… when I got the report… I made contact with ICMA and I objected.
I said… ya know… that’s not my report and I don’t think it’s accurate in terms of what the risk… or the recommendations.
And so we went back and forth on that some… and finally ICMA says “Hey, we’re going to… uh… and we consent to you… you know… having contact with the City of Prescott and the Fire Chief and the Deputy City Manager to talk about your version of the report”… and I said “That’s great”.
So… within a day or so… I had a conference call with the Fire Chief and the Deputy City Manager… and I had forwarded them MY report… and we talked about the differences and MY assessment… and we had a very good discussion.
And they said thanks… thanked me for that… and then I had a subsequent email from the Chief with an action plan that he had for the report in terms of… you know… what it was going to take for ICMA, or Prescott, to… you know… implement some or all of the report… and I thought… that’s GOOD.
And I… and to… in fairness to the Chief and in fairness to the Deputy City Manager… uh… they listened… they asked good questions… and I… uh… understand that they… uh.. you know… they paid for a report and it’s going to be at that point a BUSINESS decision that the City of Prescott has for… you know… to… ah… implement all or some or none of the report.
That’s entirely up to them.
Announcer: At the request of City Councilman Charlie Arnold, City of Prescott Attorney Jon Paladini conducted and inquiry into Darrell Willis’ accusation of tampering. In a written report to the City Council, Paladini concluded that although there ARE differences in the draft report prepared by Joe Stutler and the final report presented to the City Council by ICMA… he could find NO evidence of tampering.
For the news 1490… I’m Don Steele.
————————————————————————————
END of KYCA RADIO INTERVIEW with Joe Stutler
Thanks for transcribing this.
I’m at the point, now. where, given what TTWARE has said, and various other things various other people have said in their comments on the Daily Courier articles, the proof was in the pudding before the (wink wink nod nod) start of this “independent” analysis and report.
It seems to me that there were, from the standpoint of what some call the “cabal,” i.e. the “good old boys” (which, all things considered, Willis et al might once have been a part of but clearly weren’t by this point), the mayor, the city manager, and various members of the City Council, approximately five issues here. But they’re intertwined, which is part of the complexity here.
1) Whether to keep hosting an IHC (which Fire Chief Dan Fraijo, understandably, needed a decision on ASAP). Or, if not that, what kind of thing to replace them with (which also Fire Chief Dan Fraijo needed a decision on ASAP).
2) What, generally speaking, kind of force configuration was needed, in order to maintain the capacity to respond to wildland fires that might endanger the city.
3) What, generally speaking, kind of crew was needed to do the fuels mitigation that the city needed.
4) Where and how to organize these varying, but still connected, operations within the Fire Department.
5) How to cut the costs of all of this. Which may be the biggest achilles heel in all of this in the long run.
It’s really really late fore me right now and I don’t have the two, but if I recall correctly, the biggest difference between his original report and the one that was then reprojected, was a downplay in the importance of maintaining a Wildland Division and a Crew to go with it.
The “city fathers” took that Division and wrapped it back inside of another Division in the Fire Department, and then, first hired, for, awhile an internal crew to do fuels mitigation, and are now proposing to outsource that function.
We’ve had our various conversations about the various alternatives that are possible, some of which might be less “expensive” than what Prescott was paying for by hosting an IHC crew.
What I have seen, ACTUALLY, in wandering around looking at things, is communities realizing the RISK they are in, putting forth MORE resources, both their own and their dollars (even with the similar financial pressures we are seeing in Prescott), to ramp UP the kind of stuff that Prescott is currently, as a result of this study, ramping DOWN.
So, I’m not sure what was said to Mr. Stutler to get him to go along to get along, so to speak.
I’m still not convinced, all things considered, that the City of Prescott is dong the right thing.
I was looking around, today, at various municipal and county Fire Departments in New Mexico involved in the Interagency Cooperative Wildfire Planning process, and I saw MANY that have Wildland Fire Divisions with significant high-level staffing and dedicated crews.
Reply to Marti Reed post on April 11, 2015 at 12:08 am
>> Marti said…
>>
>> What I have seen, ACTUALLY, in wandering around looking at
>> things, is communities realizing the RISK they are in, putting
>> forth MORE resources, both their own and their dollars (even
>> with the similar financial pressures we are seeing in Prescott),
>> to ramp UP the kind of stuff that Prescott is currently, as a
>> result of this study, ramping DOWN.
As for the ‘result of this study’ part… I think it’s worth noting that while there is NO QUESTION that final re-typed version of Joe Stutler’s original (raw) ‘Wildland Report’ that he delivered to whom HE was being paid to work for ( the ICMA itself ) was ‘condensed’ and ‘edited’… the original work he did about the potential Wildfire danger to Prescott was NOT changed all that much.
BOTH Joe Stutler’s original report AND the final edited version made it absolutely CLEAR that Prescott was ( and has always been ) in great danger of a CATASTROPHIC Wildfire incident.
Joe Stutler’s original (raw) draft contained TWO different ‘modeling’ studies for a CATASTROPHIC Widlfire even in the Prescott area. He used TWO different industry standard pieces of software to ‘model’ that. FARSITE and FsPro.
He even included ‘images’ and ‘fire spread projections’ from BOTH of those ‘modeling runs’ and he also explained what they meant in detail in the text of his original draft.
ALL of that data and information regarding these ‘modeling runs’ with FARSITE and FsPro survived ‘intact’ all the way to the FINAL report that was presented to the Prescott City Council.
So there really is no question that BOTH Joe Stutler’s original draft AND the final draft were BOTH painting the same picture of the high likelihood of a CATASTROPHIC Widlfire event being ‘highly likely’ in and around the City of Prescott.
Even Stutler’s warnings about how IF the limited Highway access to the area were to be ‘shut down’ by such an event for even a limited amount of time the effect on the local income would be as equally devastating to economic health Prescott as the fire itself.
So I really don’t know where Willis was coming from with regards to this ‘aspect’ of the ICMA report. Yes… the ‘Wildland’ section WAS a ‘condensed version’ of Stutler’s original… but the final draft was the same “pulling no punches” account of how disastrous ( and how likely ) a major Wildfire event could be as was Sutler’s original draft.
>> Marti also said…
>>
>> So, I’m not sure what was said to Mr. Stutler to get him to
>> go along to get along, so to speak.
According to Stutler himself… the CONFERENCE that he had just after the final report went to the Prescott City Council was, in fact, a full ‘review’ of both his ORIGINAL findings/recommendations AND a comparison to the published report.
He ( Stutler ) seemed to come out of that CONFERENCE fully convinced that regardless of how/why some of his ‘recommendations’ got changed from the original to the final draft(s)… there was then no doubt that the ‘decision makers’ were now fully aware of EVERYTHING he had said and/or recommended… and they would now take ALL of that into consideration as decisions were made.
So that’s why he eventually ‘signed off’ on the FINAL report.
He had had his OWN personal and direct conference with the decision makers and he walked away from that conference convinced that they had HEARD and UNDERSTOOD all of his original recommendations and why he had made them.
Unlike Darrell Willis, Stutler also apparently FULLY understood that no matter what was in that ‘Wildland’ section of the ICMA report… the City of Prescott was under NO obligation to pay ANY attention to ANY of it if they didn’t feel like it.
The entire purpose of the report was to just try and help the City Managers of Prescott make some hard BUSINESS decisions about what programs could still be supported given the ongoing budget crisis there in the City of Prescott.
And they DO have a TERRIBLE crisis. An estimated 60 million dollar deficit just for the upcoming 2015 budget year alone.
But regardless of what BUSINESS decisions we now see ‘going down’ in Prescott… there can be no doubt that the even the final version of the ‘Wildland’ section of the paid-for ICMA report represents a “You were WARNED” moment fo the City Managers of Prescott.
So what Willis is ‘railing’ against isn’t even so much who saw what version of a 3rd party contracted ‘Wildland’ section in a management report. Joe Stutler himself says that the people that ‘mattered’ definitely ended up seeing “all there is to see” there and he was, himself, SURE that they did.
What is upsetting Willis is the actual BUSINESS decisions that HAVE been made by the City Managers of Prescott.
He simply doesn’t AGREE with those decisions. That’s all.
What he intends to DO about that ( run for Mayor himself? ) remains to be seen.
Followup…
In the “You were WARNED” category… it’s interesting to note that even though MOST of Stutler’s original ‘additional consequences’ text regarding a CATASTROPHIC Widlfire hitting Prescott were left ‘intact’ all the way to the FINAL report… there was ONE thing Stutler mentioned that was TOTALLY REMOVED.
This ENTIRE paragraph from his original draft…
———————————————————
2. The political risk for both elected officials and local government
officials/leaders would be significant given the wildland fire risk is both
KNOWN and WELL DOCUMENTED, and sufficient mitigation to reduce
the risk is NOT taken and maintained.
———————————————————
In other words… even though the ‘rewrite’ was still pointing out all the DANGER… the part where Stutler himself was telling them that one of the ‘consequences’ of not being fully PREPARED for the event would be serious POLITICAL consequences is one of the only things that was FULLY REMOVED in the ‘final draft’.
**
** BRENDAN MCDONOUGH SEEKS PSPRS MEDICAL DISABILITY PENSION
This was published last night by AZCENTRAL…
AZCENTRAL
Article Title: Surviving hotshot from Yarnell Hill Fire seeks pension
Published 10:54 p.m. MST April 9, 2015 by Yvonne Wingett Sanchez
http://www.azcentral.com/story/news/arizona/investigations/2015/04/10/surviving-granite-mountain-hotshot-seeks-pension-benefits/25563257/
From the article…
—————————————————————————
Brendan McDonough, the sole surviving Granite Mountain hotshot, has inquired about state pension benefits nearly two years after the crew perished in the Yarnell Hill Fire, The Arizona Republic has learned.
McDonough, a former seasonal Prescott employee, did not pay into the Public Safety Personnel Retirement System, but he hopes to file for a “PSPRS medical disability retirement,” according to notes from a Prescott City Council briefing. He is not a member of the system and has not yet filed a claim.
Since McDonough was not a member of PSPRS and did not file for a medical retirement within a year of leaving his position with the city, the records said, “there does not appear to be a basis for his request.”
McDonough did not respond to requests for comment.
—————————————————————————
And ( just like clockwork ) the Prescott Daily Courier has now ‘followed up’ with their own article about Brendan seeking a retirement pension with an article published just a few hours ago….
The Prescott Daily Courier
Article Title: McDonough inquires with city about PSPRS benefits
Published: 4/10/2015 9:28:00 PM
http://dcourier.com/main.asp?SectionID=1&SubSectionID=1&ArticleID=144033
From the article…
——————————————————————-
PRESCOTT – Surviving Granite Mountain Hotshot Brendan McDonough has yet to make an official claim, but Prescott city officials say he has inquired about the possibility of applying for Public Safety Personnel Retirement System (PSPRS) benefits.
McDonough reportedly approached the city’s human resources department recently about applying for medical disability through the PSPRS.
In response to that inquiry, Human Resources Analyst Melissa Fousek sent McDonough an email on April 1, noting that the local fire PSPRS board’s attorney Donna Aversa had advised that McDonough would need to provide a copy of his claim to the local board, the City of Prescott, and the PSPRS administrator.
McDonough, who has declined a request for a comment, earlier said he was dealing with post traumatic stress disorder.
——————————————————————-
Am I the only one who is just cynical enough to wonder about the actual TIMING here?
The guy has had almost TWO years to be officially diagnosed with PTSD and get the help he needs… and only NOW some information is coming out that he thinks he still has it so bad that he deserves an actual ‘disablility pension’?
The TIMING *could* be related to all the news that has been ‘popping’ lately.
On ‘official’ diagnosis of PTSD would be a pretty convenient ‘answer’ to the upcoming questions he is going to have to answer about WHY he was basically choosing to ‘obstruct’ two official investigations into the cause of the tragedy.
This *could* even be something that is happening on the advice of his criminal attorney, Mr. David Shapiro.
Just saying you *think* you might have PTSD is one thing.
Actually filling out paperwork that is going to claim you DO have it ( and have always had it ) takes it more into the realm of ‘proof’ that could be admitted as ‘evidence’ when/if you need to ‘explain’ WHY you may or may not have done certain things.
Either way… I believe it’s not possible to achieve a PTSD related retirement pension without there being some kind of OFFICIAL diagnosis.
Maybe filing this paperwork begins the process of accomplishing that and ‘making it official’.
Again. The TIMING just seems a little ‘contrived’ here.
I find this really interesting, all things considered. And totally confusing. And also mystifying.
Retirement? Medical Disability?
OK. He’s probably seriously suffering from PTSD.That I can grant him. I’ve said it all along.
I just don’t know how to even evaluate this whatsoever.
As the AZCENTRAL article points out ( but NOT the PDC article )… records indicate that for a full year following the tragedy… Brendan’s was on some kind of ‘workmen’s comp’ claim that required periodic ‘check ins’ to keep the money flowing.
At NO time did he make a move to apply for any kind of ‘disability’, or mention to the people checking his claim status that he thought he had PTSD.
It is only “recently” ( as reported in BOTH articles ) that he started making inquiries about how to apply for a ‘medial disability’ through the City channels.
BOTH articles state that the response letter from Melissa Fousek of Prescott Human Resources ( Yes… the same Melissa Fousek who was on the GM Crew Boss selection committee in 2013 ) was sent back to Brendan on April 1, 2015.
That was just 10 days ago.
So think about the TIMING here.
That means Brendan made his INITIAL inquiries about obtaining ‘medical disability’ probably no farther back than just about 2 weeks ago.
If He was on workman’s Comp. he was still on the Fire departments employee roster they could not remove him as an employee while on Workman’s Comp I do not believe but I Could be wrong
Well… the following information published in the AZCENTRAL article ( but not in the PDC one ) says that Brendan DID actually ‘resign’ from the Prescott Fire Department… but then in the same ‘breathe’ it also says records show he continued to attend ‘worker-compensation evaluations’ even after that.
So I’m not really sure WHAT that means.
If he was even ‘attending’ any ‘evaluations’ related to ‘workers-compensation’… I assume that means he was still receiving some kind of WC benefits… even though he had ‘resigned’.
From the AZCENTRAL article…
————————————————————-
McDonough resigned from the city last year in the aftermath of the June 2013 fire, which claimed the lives of 19 of his colleagues. McDonough now works for a Boise, Idaho-based wildland firefighting organization.
Since the fire, according to the city records, McDonough has attended periodic worker-compensation evaluations overseen by the city’s risk-management pool.
Since McDonough was not a member of PSPRS and did not file for a medical retirement within a year of leaving his position with the city, the records said, “there does not appear to be a basis for his request.”
———————————————————–
Thanks, WTKTT!
Now it’s making a bit more sense to me. I was getting really tripped up by just all the language.
Having never been a “public employee,” sometimes I get a little bit lost in all this bureaucratic benefits stuff.
Even as one it can be a total jungle to employees as well.
**
** AGENDA FOR TODAY’S MEETING OF THE YARNELL MEMORIAL SITE BOARD
The next scheduled meeting of the PUBLIC Yarnell Hill Fire Memorial Site Board is bascially taking place right now ( 3:00 PM, April 10, 2015 ).
The AGENDA for this meeting was required to be made public weeks ago… but it was only posted on the following site THIS MORNING…
http://azstateparks.com/committees/Yarnell.html
This agenda now has some attachments in it not seen in other agendas which proves that the Board HAS agreed to go ahead and purchase the actual land where the tragedy occurred and we now also see a DATE being set for the required AUCTION of that land.
The land is PUBLIC TRUST land and can’t be ‘given’ to anyone. It has to be sold at PUBLIC AUCTION.
That auction is going to be held on June 30, 2015.
Here is the exact entry from the agenda…
“June 30, 2015 at 11:00AM the ASLD will sell the land at Public Auction to the
highest and best bidder for the purpose of the Yarnell Hill Memorial. The auction
will be held at the Yavapai County Courthouse, Prescott, AZ.”
The document now also answers the question about whether they are going to purchase the ENTIRE 320 acres that constitutes the entire ‘South half of Section 9’… or whether they were going to just purchase the EAST half of that southern half of Section 9 where the deployment site is located.
They are going to try to purchase all 320 acres. The entire south half of Section 9.
There is still no word whether that small group of ‘widows’ who wanted to purchase the same land and be the ones to ‘control’ who has access to the deployment site will be participating in this PUBLIC auction, or not.
The MINUTES for this PUBLIC Yarnell Hill Memorial Site Board meeting are supposed to be made public within 72 hours following this meeting… but this Board has also never been paying any attention to that part of the ‘Arizona Open Meetings’ laws so there’s no telling when they minutes from today’s meeting might actually show up.
Followup…
The AGENDA for today’s scheduled Yarnell Memorial Site Board meeting is also accompanied by a ‘PowerPoint’ presentation that is supposed to be used during today’s meeting.
This PowerPoint presentation is right under today’s agenda at the following site…
http://azstateparks.com/committees/Yarnell.html
It shows, for the first time, what the PROPOSED ‘access’ to the site might look like.
Since the Board has been unable to get any of the landowners in Glen Ilah and Yarnell to cooperate with regards to granting ANY ‘rights of way’ or ‘access rights’ through their property and out to that south half of Section 9… the PROPOSED access now appears to be a LONG TRAIL coming in from the SOUTH all the way from Highway 89 at the base
of the Weaver Mountains.
Not only will it be a LONG hike just to even get near the site… it will be an extreme CLIMB up from Highway 89 to the top of the Weavers.
The trail coming in from the SOUTH would actually ‘fetch up’ and arrive at that south half of Section 9 right about at the spot where the high-ridge two-track road takes that sudden
turn EAST and goes towards the Boulder Springs Ranch.
In other words… right about the point where the hikers Joy Collura and Tex (Sonny) Gilligan actually exited the area that day as they were coming off the high ridge.
There would, apparently, be some PARKING area also created way down on Highway 89 where this trail would start, but that is not pictured in the PowerPoint presentation.
They also have the minutes from the February 27th meeting posted now, also.
Yes. Interesting points…
1) NOBODY who owns any land surrounding the proposed memorial site wants to grant any ‘rights of way’ or ‘access rights’…. and they don’t have the money to start forcing the issue with anyone.
2) Mr. King DID ask directly if Lee and DJ Helm might be willing to SELL their property. Yarnell Fire Chief Ben Palm basically said “no way”. Mr. King followed that up with saying they shouldn’t take that as a definite NO… and should still keep pursuing that option. No mention was made of the fact that Lee and DJ Helm are part of the ‘property damage’ lawsuits against Arizona Forestry and are asking for 6+ million dollars in ‘damages’… and maybe that could be used as a ‘negotiating point’ here to try and actually OBTAIN the property itself.
3) No progress at all on a ‘design’ for the site. The only agreement is that it should probably be ‘very simple’ for three reasons. It will keep costs down, it will ‘respect’ what is being described as ‘sacred ground’ AND ( the most practical reason )… if it gets too ‘complicated’ or ‘advanced’ then they MIGHT bump up against State/Federal park requirements for BATHROOMS and ADA ( American Disablities Act ) requirements for handicap access to all aspects of the ‘memorial’.
4) The ‘Donations’ mechanism has been active on the Memorial Board website since February and their have been over 3,000 visits to that part of the site… but only $600 ( SIX HUNDRED ) dollars has been donated so far.
Forgot one ( interesting point from the Feb 27 minutes ).
5) The architect that is ‘donating’ his services to help propose ‘ideas’ for the memorial site itself wants everyone to ‘meet’ out there at the site and they set a tentative date of March 14 for that… but then concerns were expressed that if this Board schedules a ‘meeting’ out there ( and a quorum of Board members ends up in attendance ) then according to ‘Arizona Open Meetings’ laws this is now a ‘regularly scheduled meeting’ of this PUBLIC Board and the PUBLIC itself has to then be notified about it AND also ‘invited to attend’.
NO ONE wants THAT to ever happen… so they are now trying to figure out how to ‘meet’ out at the site WITHOUT it being an actual ‘scheduled meeting’ of this PUBLIC Board.
I guess we will find out in the ‘next’ set of minutes if they ever did ‘figure that out’ and how they accomplished that.
**
** “ARIZONA FORESTRY VERSUS ADOSH” ALJ HEARING FILES CONSOLIDATED
Something really strange just happened with all those “Arizona Forestry vs. ADOSH”
ALJ Hearing files sitting at the following PUBLIC URL…
https://sites.google.com/site/yarnellhillinformation/home/yarnellhillaljhearingfile
All of a sudden… they ALL show an ‘Update Time’ of April 8, 2015 ( between 11:47 and 11:48 AM ).
That includes the ALJ Hearing File documents going all the way back to July, 2013.
I think what has happened here is that someone (??) just CONSOLIDATED everything so that every single file represents everything that happened in any particular MONTH since they first started posting documents in July of 2013.
I don’t see anything MISSING or REMOVED yet… but I’m still comparing them to the originals.
From what I can tell… this REORG and CONSOLDATION was done to hide the fact that they online ALJ Hearing File page has NOT been being updated on the ‘first business day’ of each week as the home page for the ALJ Hearings says it is supposed to be.
Example: The documents that were only uploaded the other day, but had obviously been written/delivered back in MARCH have now been dumped BACK into the previous MARCH, 2015 filename. This masks the fact that they were 3 weeks late posting these documents.
Since all of the ‘Update’ dates on ALL of the Hearing files are now the SAME DAY ( April 8, 2015 ),
it is impossible to see now that they have never really been updating this online page according to the frequency required. ( First business day of each week ).
The file for April now ONLY contains that MANIFEST of all the documents/photos/videos that the SAIT delivered to ADOSH ( and where they all came from in the first place ) and the notice that the final ALJ Hearing has been moved from July to October 13, 2015.
** THE MANIFEST
Still combing through that extensive MANIFEST of EVIDENCE that Arizona Forestry says represents the totality of what THEY received from Jim Karel’s and Mike Dudley’s SAIT team.
Found another ‘interesting’ entry.
Remember: This MANIFEST is a reproduction of that the SAIT supposedly gave to Arizona Forestry who, in turn, is now supposed to be FULLY supplying to ADOSH.
So that means the ‘ORIGIN OF EVIDENCE’ column in the manifest itself was (supposedly) all filled out by people on the SAIT side of the equation.
This MANIFEST is saying that the SAIT is telling Arizona Forestry it received all of Christopher MacKenzie’s CANON Camera photos and videos from the Yavapai County Sheriff’s Office.
That does NOT match the ‘story’ told by Darrell Willis how HE received a CD back from MacKenzie’s father after he gave him the actual camera… and it was then Darrell Willis who supposedly passed that CD full of photos and videos on to the SAIT.
There is NO EVIDENCE in any of the YCSO documents to indicate that the YCSO ever had Christopher MacKenzie’s camera in their possession at any time or that this CANON Camera was ever examined by them or officially entered into the evidence record.
Check-out John’s new article above.
http://www.investigativemedia.com/mcdonough-will-testify-if-legally-required/
Kudos to John Dougherty for this important article.
He went as close to the ‘source’ as he could. Brendan’s lawyer David Shapiro.
In addition to answers to questions no other reporter seemed to even want to bother to find out… here are some other things we now know because of John’s good work…
1) Brendan’s attorney fees are NOT being paid for by the City of Prescott, or Arizona Forestry, or U. S. Forestry, or any external ‘Firefighter’ support organization. His criminal defense attorney ( David Shapiro ) is representing him ‘pro bono’ ( for free ).
2) The actual Arizona Attorney General was NOT present in that initial face-to-face meeting when Willis disclosed what Brendan told him privately to Arizona ‘officials’. It was simply some subset of staff attorneys from the Arizona Attorney General’s office.
3) It appears now that when SAIT co-leader Mike Dudley shot his mouth off on June 20, 2014 during his speech to that roomful of Utah firefighters and revealed that the SAIT had been told by more than one person there was an ‘argument’ between Marsh and Steed… that that had a lot to do with Brendan deciding to come forward soon after that information became PUBLIC and have that talk with Willis.
It should be noted that the fact remains that whichever ‘multiple persons’ SAIT Co-Lead Mike Dudley said had told the SAIT they heard an ‘argument’… it still appears that none of THOSE ‘persons’ was Brendan McDonough himself.
That still means the most likely ‘multiple persons’ that Mike Dudley was referring to were one or more of the three Blue Ridge Hotshots that had been driving the other Granite Mountain vehicles, which had the GM intra-net crew frequency automatically set as the PRIORITY radio channel.
The Blue Ridge Hotshots are still under a GAG ORDER from the U.S. Forestry Service and are still not allowed to talk about what any of them heard that day… if they want to keep their jobs.
According to this new article… David Shapiro said…
“The complexities of this situation are sufficient that Brendan isn’t going to make any statement until it is proper for him to do so,” Shapiro says. “When the time comes when it is legally proper for him to tell his side of the story, he will do it.”
Until it is PROPER for him to do so?
When the TIME comes?
Really?
The TIME when it was PROPER for Brendan to have told people tasked with investigating this incident everything he knows has COME and GONE over and over and over ( Yes, at least THREE times. SAIT interview and TWO ADOSH interviews ).
There is still going to have to come a moment for Brendan when he needs to ALSO supply an good EXPLANATION why he was ‘choosing’ to basically ‘obstruct’ official investigation(s).
No… I still don’t think there’s any chance of Brendan actually being CHARGED with that offense ( A Class 2 misdemeanor )… but it’s also still perfectly obvious now that he has actually COMMITTED that offense and he needs to explain WHY he chose to do that.
A lot of people think that the answer to that is ‘easy’ ( That he was scared, that he was trying to protect the ‘reputation’ of his ‘brothers’, yada, yada, yada )…
…but there might have been more to it than that.
Until Brendan himself says WHY he actually decided to ‘obstruct’ those official investigations… or if he was being ‘advised’ to do so… we won’t REALLY know ‘the full story’.
“Oh… what a tangled web we weave when first we practice to deceive”.
Sir Walter Scott, Marmion, Canto vi. Stanza 17.
Scottish author & novelist (1771 – 1832)
Followup…
Notice ( in this new article ) that not for one second does Brendan’s attorney Daivid Shapiro make any attempt to DENY anything that has just recently been published with regards to ‘the story’ already being reported.
That can be construed to mean it really is all TRUE… but he is just doing his job now as an attorney and trying to control the circumstances when Brendan has to finally CONFIRM the already-released information… and also finally supply the DETAILS that haven’t been published yet.
He knew they were coming off that mountain and yet he never called them to tell them what the fire was doing. Did he not want to interfere with his supervisors? He should have said something to the BR Superintendent when they brought the drivers for the trucks.
This is the other contention I have had for a long time the look out should have been minimum— Strike Team Leader Qualified— Not a 2 year FF who was sick.
There is just so many things a good lookout could have done.?????????
I think its going to take a little time for the new information to actually sink in… including the fact that for all intents and purposes… it all appears to be ‘confirmed’.
In Brendan’s case… the ‘story for public consumption’ for so long has been that he ‘signed off’ with Steed on the radio saying “Call me if you need me” and then he never know what his own Crew was doing after that.
Since that is now most apparently NOT the case… yes… a LOT of ‘new questions’ are now lying right there on the table.
And not just surrounding what Brendan did or didn’t do… or what the others who may have had this knowledge did or didn’t do ( The Blue Ridge Hotshots ).
The new information calls a lot of things into question.
If Brendan KNEW they were ‘on the move’ and where they were headed, and there was even the SLIGHTEST chance they might not have known how fast the fire was ‘blowing up’… why would Brendan even hesitate to just do a ‘reality check’ with them since he was (still?) their ‘designated lookout’ that day?
Absolute proof of a ‘Lesson Learned’ and why someone who doesn’t know how to take initiative should NEVER be assigned as a ‘lookout’?
If Marsh really was either near or already at the BSR at ANY point in time prior to the disaster… did SPGS1 Gary Cordes KNOW that?
Could THAT be why he ‘wasn’t surprised where they were’ and why he was telling Esquibel to send that engine ( or two ) to the BSR?
Somehow… Cordes had NO DOUBT that at least Marsh has made it there and needed a ‘pickup’?
And there is still the YARNELL-GAMBLE video.
Based on the NEW information… when we hear Marsh saying “They’re coming from the heel of the fire” at EXACTLY 4:27 PM… then that does place Marsh way out AHEAD of them ( at or near the BSR ) at 4:27 PM and his “coming from” reference was, indeed, from the perspective of “I’m DOWN HERE already… but THEY are ‘still coming'”.
WHO was Marsh actually talking to there on the public TAC channel?
It is still VERY important to know because, at 4:27 PM, there was still time for an intervention that day.
What does this new information do for the 4:17 PM transmission when we hear Marsh avoid the direct question from ( someone? WHO? ) as to whether he was “with Granite Mountain’ and he dodged that question with “Just checkin’ it out to see where we’re gonna jump out at”.
In the context of the NEW information… what does THAT actually mean now? “Jump out” from WHERE? The Boulder Springs Ranch?
Does that really indicate that getting to the BSR was just ‘phase 1′ of the plan and Marsh was still “Checkin’ it out to see where we gonna jump out at” after the men arrived there… to ‘fulfill the mission’?
What WAS the ‘mission’, really?
Just to get to the BSR… or there was already even more of a ‘plan’ in place?
Does Brendan know what the FULL plan was?
And… of course… the mother of all questions now.
If Marsh was anywhere out AHEAD of those men that day and acting as de-facto ‘Forward Lookout’ for them… then why are they all dead?
**
** WHO WAS REALLY AT THAT FIRST ‘MEETING’ WITH WILLIS AND PALADINI?
**
** HOW ABOUT THE ACTUAL ARIZONA STATE ATTORNEY GENERAL.
In the “I just now picked up on this” category with regards to the most recent Daily Courier article, I just noticed that unlike the AZCENTRAL article, the PDC article actually now tells us EXACTLY WHO was at that initial ‘meeting’ that Willis and Paladini arranged after Willis gave McDonough one full weekend to get his information to investigators… and Brendan failed to do that.
That’s when Willis got with Palladini ( and Arizona Forestry people? ) and told him/them what Brendan told him, and then someone ( Paladini? AZF people? ) arranged a meeting to inform ‘higher ups’ about all of it.
We FIRST heard that this kind of ‘meeting’ took place in the ALJ Hearing file when Arizona Forestry Lawyer David Selden was ‘talking’ directly to ALJ Judge Mosesso.
The actual quote ( from the ALJ Hearing file document ) was…
———————————————————————————-
Respondent ( Arizona Forestry ) has received CREDIBLE information from RELIABLE sources, including a Prescott official in the presence of the Prescott City Attorney ( John Paladini ), that Mr. McDonough heard radio transmissions BETWEEN crew members about their tragic actions in leaving the safety of “the black” and heading TOWARDS the location at which they perished.
———————————————————————————–
This always sounded like it might have been just a CONFERENCE CALL with Arizona Forestry lawyers ( David Selden, etc. ) on one end of the phone and Willis and Palladini on the other end.
But now we see this being reported in the latest PDC article…
———————————————————————————-
Willis said he told McDonough that he would give him a few days to take the information forward. When McDonough did not follow that advice, Willis contacted the State Forestry Department, as well as Paladini, about the new information.
That led to a Phoenix meeting, at which Willis was interviewed by officials with State Forestry, the Arizona Division of Occupational Safety and Health (ADOSH), and the Arizona Attorney General. Paladini said he sat in as Willis’ attorney.
———————————————————————————-
So that means this ‘moment they learned the information’ being reported by the Arizona Forestry lawyers in one of their letters to Jude Mosesso in the ALJ Hearing file which suggested it was some ‘phone call’ or ‘meeting’ between just THEM and (quote) “a Prescott official in the presence of the Prescott City Attorney” was much MORE than that.
According to the PDC article… there were a LOT more people there, including the Arizona Attorney General himself.
PDC article says everyone got in their cars and went to a ‘special’ face-to-face meeting somewhere in Phoenix and the ‘cast of characters’ PRESENT at that ‘meeting’ now includes…
1) Officials (lawyers? others?) with Arizona State Forestry.
2) Officials (lawyers? others?) with ADOSH.
3) The (actual) Arizona Attorney General himself.
4) Jon Paladini, Prescott City Attorney.
5) Darrell Willis, Former Prescott Wildland Division Chief.
So (apparently) the actual Arizona Attorney General was ‘in on this’ and also one of the first to hear this ‘new information’ being reported by Darrell Willis.
The PDC article ( unlike the AZCENTRAL article ) also now puts an exact DATE / TIMELINE on when all of this went down.
From the PDC article…
———————————————————————-
As Willis tells it, McDonough contacted him in October 2014 with new information, and Willis told him that he needed to “come forward with this” to the people who were investigating the fire.
That was late on a Friday – Oct. 10, 2014 – and Willis said he told McDonough that he would give him a few days to take the information forward. When McDonough did not follow that advice, Willis contacted the State Forestry Department, as well as Paladini, about the new information.
———————————————————————-
So here’s the ‘timeline’…
1) McDonough contacts Willis on Friday, October 10, 2014 and ‘spills his guts’ to Willis.
2) Willis realized the gravity of this, tells him “this can’t just sit with me” ( according to
AZCENTRAL article ) and Willis gives McDonough just the weekend to “do the right thing”
and go to ‘higher ups’ and tell him the same story.
3) Brendan does nothing all weekend.
4) Come Monday, October 12, Willis takes action on his own.
5) Willis goes to Prescott City Attorney Jon Paladini ( same day? ) and tells HIM the story.
6) Jon Paladini makes some phone calls and sets up a face-to-face meeting with others.
7) Within ( I imagine ) a day or two… a face-to-face meeting takes place in Phoenix.
Face-to-face meeting included ALL of the following people…
1) Officials (lawyers? others?) with Arizona State Forestry.
2) Officials (lawyers? others?) with ADOSH.
3) The (actual) Arizona Attorney General himself.
4) Jon Paladini, Prescott City Attorney.
5) Darrell Willis, Former Prescott Wildland Division Chief.
What’s blowing my mind here is that if any kind of ‘coverup’ is now going to be ‘alleged’ over this whole thing… it isn’t just some lawyers playing games in the background.
The actual frickin’ ATTORNEY GENERAL for the state of Arizona was (apparently) ‘in on it’.
Followup…
A point I forgot to make up above is that if this ‘face-to-face’ meeting in Phoenix went down like the latest PDC article says it did… then it sounds EXACTLY like it was sort of ‘psuedo-deposition’ with a LOT of lawyers present and it took place in front of the Arizona Attorney General himself.
Again… this part from the PDC article…
———————————————————-
That led to a Phoenix meeting, at which Willis was interviewed by officials with State Forestry, the Arizona Division of Occupational Safety and Health (ADOSH), and the Arizona Attorney General. Paladini said he sat in as Willis’ attorney.
———————————————————-
So you can forget about Paladini saying the only time he ‘wrote anything down’ was that memo he sent to the Prescott City Council.
The way the PDC article describes this actual face-to-face meeting… complete with Willis being ‘interviewed’ by lawyers ( and REPRESENTED by one – Paladini ) in front of the Arizona Attorney General himself…
…I find it NOT CREDIBLE that there would not also be a TRANSCRIPT of this original ‘interview’ and EXACTLY what former Prescott Wildland Division Chief Darrell Willis was now ‘testifying to’ in front of a chorus of lawyers AND the actual Arizona State Attorney General himself.
To have NOT had a stenographer present at that meeting would almost amount to ‘negligence’ on the part of all those attorneys… the Attorney General included.
I’m breaking the rule I decided upon yesterday (for the third time) to not post because I need to turn my path in the direction of elsewhere, at this time. But. I’m still reading and thank you (and everyone else) for this conversation.
The question I still have at the moment is this:
In the midst of all of this, what do you think of Darrel Willis’ charge that this revelation on the part of Palladini is a violation of his “attorney-client privilege” vis a vis Willis?
I am so seriously fuzzy about most of this whole legal stuff.
Although, I appreciate what you have said about that memo. As I have perused the City Council meetings/minutes, I have found that when they have a “Special” meeting, i.e., one in which they go into Executive Session, the Minutes of that Executive Session include a description of what that Session is in relationship to.
I’m not sure of how that specifically relates to a “Memo,” but I’m sure there’s some relationship to it.
Regarding the comments people are making regarding Brendan’s credibility, at this point, given everything including TIME, there are also comments regarding the credibility of these major players, including the following:
———————-
Stan Wnenta With NO disrespect to the 19, this tragedy is starting to smell bad. It sounds like information has been with held, lawyers hiding facts, and the public, who put out their hearts, are not allowed to know the truth because of legalities. Why would they possibly want to hide anything? Whats going on here?
Reply · Like · 2 · Follow Post · 13 hours ago
Claire Elizabeth Caldwell How do you think the families feel?
Reply · Like · 9 · 11 hours ago
What a circus.
Right now, at this exact moment, I’m sitting here thinking, all things considered,
The best thing Brendan could do right now, if he really cares about people like Claire Elizabeth Caldwell, is go over to the Prescott Daily Courier offices and sit down with Joanna Dodder (who is really good, imho, and just TALK.
Acknowledging that he’s been in shock and PTSD (understandably) and he has no idea what agendas the people that have been “advising” him have had, and that he may not be able to remember everything that happened and that he heard correctly, but this is what he is thinking now about what he heard and experienced, and that this has been the absolutely the most terrifying thing he has ever gone through.
That would move his story completely out of the realm of this whole friggin MACHINE and hand it over to the families, including Claire Elizabeth Caldwell, and the totally confused public,
I think he would be forgiven by mostly all who matter.
Even if what he has to say is a story that is really really really painful for a number of people to hear.
Pain is survivable.
Thanks Marti if you drop off stop by from time to time we enjoy your statements and info at least I do.
Your welcome Bob. And also thank you.
And yes I totally will. I just need to break my addiction to this and turn most of my attention to a mountain of stuff I’d much rather not do.
And I reiterate that, if someone (with credibility and/or experience) wants to correct me on my “rotating column” model/theory, I am really open to that.
Reply to Marti Reed post on April 10, 2015 at 1:30 am
>> Marti said…
>>
>> Right now, at this exact moment, I’m sitting here thinking,
>> all things considered,
>>
>> The best thing Brendan could do right now, if he really
>> cares about people like Claire Elizabeth Caldwell, is go
>> over to the Prescott Daily Courier offices and sit down
>> with Joanna Dodder (who is really good, imho, and
>> just TALK.
Brendan now has to deal with the old assumption “Once a LIAR… always a LIAR”.
Even if he went ‘on camera’ right now… he will STILL need to be DEPOSED in this matter.
There are just too many people that will be realizing he has ALWAYS had his own AGENDA that won’t be ready to believe he isn’t STILL just following his own mysterious AGENDA unless what they are hearing came out ‘under oath’ and under actual penalty of PERJURY.
Even then… a lot of people won’t be believing it.
He’s dug a pretty deep hole for himself here and he’s gonna get ‘dirty’ as he claws his way out of it.
He should have thought of that ( or been advised it would happen ) before he ever started pursuing this mysterious AGENDA of his.
Dont’ forget… this guy was specially appointed by the Arizona Speaker of the House to serve on the publicly funded ‘Yarnell Hill Site Memorial Board’. Whether he now gets to REMAIN on that publicly funded Board is just one more piece of ‘fallout’ he’s going to have to deal with.
Reply to Marti Reed post on April 10, 2015 at 1:01 am
>> Marti said…
>>
>> The question I still have at the moment is this:
>>
>> In the midst of all of this, what do you think of Darrel Willis’
>> charge that this revelation on the part of Palladini is a violation
>> of his “attorney-client privilege” vis a vis Willis?
I think Darrell Willis was under the mistaken impresssion that just because Prescott City Attorney Jon Paladini might have even been sitting by his side during that interview with AZF and ADOSH lawyers… that he and Paladini automatically had some kind of (private) attorney/client relationship.
That is NOT the case.
Paladini’s CLIENT is the City of Prescott itself, and not any one individual employee.
Willis was still an EMPLOYEE of the City of Prescott when he walked into Paladini’s office with this ‘story’. He is/was also the actual former “Wildland Division Chief” for the City.
That makes whatever happened next simply a City Attorney being concerned about whether information that might be about to go public from a FORMER City of Prescott employee ( Brendan McDonough ) would expose his client ( The City of Prescott ) to ‘new’ LIABILITIES with regards to the death of 19 Prescott City Employees at the Yarnell Hill Fire.
Willis was just a ‘middleman’ and just a ‘piece on the chessboard’ at that point, and not Paladini’s private ‘client’. It was an Employer/Employee thing, and not a regular attorney/client thing that was now taking place.
Willis ALSO contacted State Forestry Scott Hunt at the same time he engaged with Paladini. If Willis had ANY ‘expectations of privacy’ about the information he was imparting… then why did he do THAT?
If he just ASSUMED that what HE had to say would stay in the ‘inner circles’, and remain under any kind of attorney/client implications… then he should have NEVER also contacted non-attorney Scott Hunt. He should have just stuck with Paladini only and also gotten ASSURANCES that the conversations would be considered by Paladini as pure attorney/client stuff.
>> Marti also said…
>>
>> Although, I appreciate what you have said about that memo.
>> As I have perused the City Council meetings/minutes, I have found
>> that when they have a “Special” meeting, i.e., one in which they go
>> into Executive Session, the Minutes of that Executive Session
>> include a description of what that Session is in relationship to.
That’s because Arizona Law REQUIRES it be done that way.
The ACTUAL nuts-and-bolts CONTENT of the Executive Session still have to be ‘transcribed’ and ‘recorded’ exactly the way the law requires for the PUBLIC parts of the meeting… but those ‘Executive Session’ transcripts are NOT required to be available within 72 hours after the meeting… as the LAW requires for the PUBLIC minutes.
Those ‘Executive Session’ transcripts must ( by Law ) also exist… but they remain exempt from the simple ‘Public’s right to know’ laws regarding Arizona Open Meetings.
That does NOT mean they are ‘automatically’ exempt from an ‘Arizona Open Records’ request or ‘out of reach’ of the Arizona Court system, however.
Those ‘Executive Session’ transcripts are never PERMANENTLY out of the reach of an Arizona Open Records request and/or a FOIA/FOIL request and/or a Court request. It depends on what the ‘Executive Session’ was ABOUT, really, and THAT is required by Law to be PUBLIC information.
It’s complicated… but it’s not like some City Council is the equivalent of the “National Security Agency”, or something.
Example: If there is an allegation that the ‘Executive Session’ itself was not for one of the valid reasons you are even allowed to have one ( and there are, in fact, a limited range of valid reasons )… or that the ‘Executive Session’ itself violated some other rule of the Arizona Open Meetings laws… the Arizona Attorney General’s Office is automatically entitled to see EVERYTHING as they investigate the matter… and if some City Council doesn’t cough up the transcripts from the Executive Session… someone can actually go to JAIL over it.
>> Marti also said…
>>
>> I’m not sure of how that specifically relates to a “Memo,” but I’m
>> sure there’s some relationship to it.
We still don’t know what Paladini meant by a (quote) “MEMO to the City Council”.
Did he mean just ONE memo… to ONE of the Council members… or did he ‘CC’ (Copy) EVERY member of the council?
Does Paladini consider an EMAIL to be a MEMO… or was this actually typed up and hand-delivered?
>> Marti also said…
>>
>> Regarding the comments people are making regarding Brendan’s
>> credibility, at this point, given everything including TIME, there are
>> also comments regarding the credibility of these major players,
>> including the following:
The recent information ‘popping’ in the press certainly isn’t all that huge of a ‘revelation’ to US here on this forum. It’s really just a ‘confirmation’ of things we already knew/suspected.
But for the MSM and the general PUBLIC… this is a huge WTF moment.
I am SURE that once people let this new information ‘sink in’… there is going to be a “Slowly I turned” moment when people start wanting to know why even what MANY Public officials knew has taken so long to ‘come to the light of day’.
Coverups ( or anything that even LOOKS like one ) piss people off.
They just don’t like them… especially not from people on the PUBLIC payroll.
There is a whole new ‘chapter’ of ‘Why was this allowed to happen this way’ that is about to begin, here.
The Attorney General is an office in addition to a person. I doubt the AG for the state overall was there, so until someone confirms who represented the AG’s office, I wouldn’t put too much emphasis on that.
As far as attorney-client privilege between Palladini and Willis, I doubt Palladini ever represented Willis personally. Lots of employees are surprised to find out that the company attorney isn’t THEIR own attorney. I think that is what happened here.
Thanks, SR!
Reply to SR post on April 10, 2015 at 7:29 am
>> SR said…
>>
>> The Attorney General is an office in addition to a person.
>> I doubt the AG for the state overall was there, so until
>> someone confirms who represented the AG’s office,
>> I wouldn’t put too much emphasis on that.
Well… once again… it’s hard to tell whether this is just bad reporting, or poor use of the King’s English, or whether the statement in the PDC is, in fact, being very specific.
It’s actually an unusual set of circumstances here.
The Arizona State Attorney General’s Office ( as in, staff lawyers ) are the ones actually REPRESENTING ‘Arizona Forestry’ in the “Arizona Forestry vs. ADOSH” citation dispute(s).
So it only stands to reason that “Officials with the Arizona State Attorney General’s office” would have been there at that “meeting”.
But that’s not what the PDC article actually said.
It says (specifically) “the Arizona Attorney General”. ( As in ‘the person’ ).
If what the reporter REALLY meant to say was ‘Officials’ or ‘Attorneys’ simply *associated* with the AZ AG’s office… then the CLEAR way to have made sure that intent was communicated would have been more like this…
“That led to a Phoenix meeting, at which Willis was interviewed by officials with State Forestry, the Arizona Division of Occupational Safety and Health (ADOSH), and OFFICIALS ASSOCIATED WITH the Arizona Attorney General’s OFFICE.”
But that’s not how it was published.
As written… it could be *construed* to mean the actual AZ AG was actually there in that meeting.
It would not SURPRISE me at all if that was the case.
It could actually almost be EXPECTED that he would attend.
This is a BIG DEAL… and he is the HEAD ATTORNEY for a legal team that is, in fact, now charged with defending ‘Arizona Forestry’.
There are MILLIONS and MILLIONS of Arizona taxpayer dollars at stake here.
I could EASILY imagine him deciding to attend if, for no other reason, than to remove any ‘middle men’ on this and to make sure he was hearing for himself exactly what questions his staff lawyers would be asking and to make sure they were ‘getting it right’. He may have even have had some questions of his own.
>> SR also said…
>>
>> As far as attorney-client privilege between Palladini and Willis,
>> I doubt Palladini ever represented Willis personally. Lots of employees
>> are surprised to find out that the company attorney isn’t THEIR own
>> attorney. I think that is what happened here.
I would tend to agree.
Willis was still an EMPLOYEE of the City of Prescott when he approached Paladini with this. So this was simply a current City employee ( and former City Wildland Division Chief ) contacting the City Attorney about a legal matter that might have and impact on the City itself. It was not a private attorney/client relationship at that point. It was an ’employer/employee’ situation.
The article ALSO says that Willis contacted people connected with ‘Arizona Forestry’ at the SAME TIME he contacted Paladini.
If Willis was all that concerned about it all being kept secret… then he goofed.
If he wanted it ‘just between me and the guy I think represents me’ then he should have ONLY contacted Paladini and not anyone else.
But even then…. I believe Willis forgot that Jon Palladini is being paid to represent the entire City of Prescott and look out for the City’s best interests. Palladini’s actual CLIENT is the City itself… and NOT any/all of its individual employees.
SIDENOTE: That is exactly why Brendan decided to get a private attorney.
It was Paladini who was acting as Brendan’s ‘mediator’ to help arrange that first scheduled under-oath deposition back on November 26, 2014.
It was also Paladini who was going to ‘represent’ Brendan DURING the deposition just as he sat beside Willis during that first ‘dump’ of the information to the Arizona AG’s attorneys and ADOSH attorneys.
It looks like Brendan was either advised ( or realized himself ) at the last minute that going into that deposition with an attorney whose REAL job is to simply represent the entire City of Prescott was NOT in Brendan’s own “best interests”.
So he got his OWN attorney… complete with his own ( guaranteed under law ) attorney-client privilege firmly ‘in-place’.
There is nothing wrong with that. That was the SMART thing for him to do.
Correction for above…
I actually should have said…
SIDENOTE: That is PROBABLY why Brendan decided to get a private attorney.
The truth is that we have still not heard jack-shit from Brendan himself about ANY of this… including the why’s and wherefore’s of his actions going all the way back to the cancellation of that first deposition.
We really still do NOT know WHY Brendan decided to get his own CRIMINAL defense attorney instead of just letting Prescott City Attorney Jon Paladini ‘represent’ him for that first deposition.
It is EXTREMELY unlikely that the actual Arizona Attorney General (Tom Horne) was involved in this meeting.
Approaching the end of a scandal-ridden term in office, he didn’t personally participate in much of anything except his own damage control.
The PDC article was most likely trying to say “officials of the Arizona Attorney General’s office.
Reply to The Truth Will Always Remain Elusive (TTWARE) post
on April 10, 2015 at 8:58 am
>> TTWARE said…
>>
>> It is EXTREMELY unlikely that the actual Arizona Attorney General
>> (Tom Horne) was involved in this meeting.
>>
>> Approaching the end of a scandal-ridden term in office, he didn’t
>> personally participate in much of anything except his own
>> damage control.
I didn’t research the guy so I’ll take your word for it that he ‘pegs high’ on the asshole meter.
My ‘objective’ impression would be that if he was still being paid to be the Attorney General for Arizona… then it actually would be LIKELY he would want to be at this meeting. It was a BIG DEAL and he is in CHARGE of his own staff who are actually the ones charged with representing ‘Arizona Forestry’ in an issue that represents the possible loss of MILLIONS and MILLIONS of dollars to the taxpayers of Arizona.
>> SR also said…
>>
>> The PDC article was most likely trying to say “officials of the
>> Arizona Attorney General’s office.
Yes. It could be just simple inattention to the choice of words on the part of the reporter.
I would think ( since the poor choice of words DOES imply that he was there ) this would be a candidate for an ‘update’ or a published ‘correction’ for the article along the lines of…
ERRATA: The article above implies that the Arizona Attorney General himself attended the interview with Willis and Paldini. That was NOT the case. The meeting was only attended by staff lawyers from the Arizona Attorney General’s office since the Arizona Attorney General’s office is officially representing ‘Arizona Forestry’ in the “Arizona Forestry vs. ADOSH” legal proceedings.
Reply to The Truth Will Always Remain Elusive (TTWARE) post
on April 10, 2015 at 8:58 am
>> TTWARE said…
>>
>> It is EXTREMELY unlikely that the actual Arizona Attorney
>> General (Tom Horne) was involved in this meeting.
Scratch my other comments above.
John Dougherty’s new article published TODAY confirms that what the PDC article author should have said was that it was ‘just “Officials from the Arizona Attorney General’s Office” ( as in… staff lawyers ) that attended that face-to-face with Willis and Paladini… and NOT the actual Arizona Attorney General….
http://www.investigativemedia.com/mcdonough-will-testify-if-legally-required/
From the article…
————————————————————-
Willis says he gave McDonough “the weekend to come forth with this.”
The following Monday, Willis says he contacted Prescott City Attorney Jon Paladini and state Forester Scott Hunt. Willis and Paladini met with attorneys for the Forestry Division, ADOSH and the Attorney General’s office about two weeks later, he says. Willis says McDonough did not attend his meetings with Paladini or the state’s attorneys.
————————————————————-
I would still say, however, that it would be highly unusual for there to have been this kind of ‘interview’ taking place, with so many attorneys present, without there being some kind of TRANSCRIPT of the proceedings and what Willis was testifying to during this face-to-face meeting.
I made a comment below that went to moderation as I must have badly typed the email address:
To summarize. First, this week is a media watershed. The narrative has changed forever. The Republic editorial page called for McDonough to be deposed ASAP. Next, the media will want to hear from Blue Ridge. Second, unless Jon Palladini is an evil liar, the bit about Marsh saying “I’m sorry” lends veracity to his statement. You do not make that up. The difference between Palladini and Willis seems to be was it an “order” order. Palladini now says essentially ordered – i.e. a heckuva lot of pressure.
Just by reading the ( predictable ) public ‘comments’ that are appearing at the bottoms of these various articles that are now ‘popping’… it’s pretty obvious that even if Brendan is actually DEPOSED now… SOME people are NOT going to believe a single word coming out of his mouth.
Or… they MIGHT believe his ‘situational’ testimony ( Marsh was ahead of them and told/ordered Steed to bring them all down )… but NOT some of the actual ‘conversations’ he says he heard.
Because of the circumstances themselves, with Brendan obviously having his own ‘agenda’ from day one and CHOOSING to ‘withhold’ information to satisfy that ‘early’ agenda… some are already saying this time could be no different and we are still ONLY hearing what Brendan McDonough himself wants the world to think happened ( and was said ) out there.
All of this was inevitable the moment Brendan decided to NOT tell everything he knew ‘up front’.
Even if Brendan puts his hand on a stack of books representing the tenets of every organized religion on the planet… some are still going to say he is a LIAR and can’t be ‘believed’ or ‘trusted’.
So there will end up being ( as there always have been ) different ‘camps’ emerging.
One camp will believe him and believe we now have more ‘facts’.
Other camps will think he’s a pathological LIAR and MANIPULATOR and that nothing
he says can be trusted as ‘the truth’.
As for the “I’m sorry” part… that is going to be a BIG point of consternation.
Not only does it represent the ‘flash point’ for some saying “Look… there’s the admission of fault right there!”… it is also the ‘flash point’ for people who doubt Brendan to say “Look… there he is (again) just trying to shape the narrative the way he wants us to see it.”
What a mess.
Can Blue Ridge corroborate his testimony? Might be crucial.
Did you catch the following little ‘tidbit’ of information which is now ONLY appearing in the PDC article ( and not in the AZCENTRAL one )?
It seems to put an exact TIME on when Brendan started hearing the ‘discussions’.
From the PDC article…
———————————————————————-
The gist of the story, Paladini said, was that as the fire raged, McDonough and several Hotshots from the Blue Ridge crew had moved four Granite Mountain Hotshot vehicles out of the line of the fire.
When McDonough started one of the vehicles, the crew radio came on, and he reportedly overheard an ongoing discussion between Eric Marsh, the superintendent and a founder of the Hotshots, and his captain, Jesse Steed.
———————————————————————
This is actually now just a CONFIRMATION of what has ALWAYS been published in the SAIR and ADOSH reports… that Brendan “Heard them discussing their options”.
Well… as far as Blue Ridge goes… that means that there was this time period BEFORE any of them showed up out in the Sesame Area to help move any vehicles where Brendan would have been the ONLY one hearing THOSE conversations.
Brendan ‘started up the GM vehicles’ as soon as Frisby dropped him off by them ( The GM Supt and Chase trucks. Crew Carriers were farther south in the Sesame area ).
Frisby then took off in the UTV to go ‘get’ the one other driver it would take to move the GM Chase Truck while Brendan drove Marsh’s GM Supt. truck out.
Brendan had to wait right here ( and that’s when he took some of those iPhone photos of that ‘smoke whirl’ near him ) because Brendan had no frickin’ idea how to even get out of that area…. much less over to the Youth Camp.
So if this is confirmation now that the moment Brendan jumped into the GM Supt truck and fired it up and the ‘turned up the radio’ ( as he also testified to doing way back when ) then for at least about 5 minutes he was the only one listening to any conversation on the GM intra-crew in THAT timeframe.
But here is what is still ‘interesting’.
That may be when Brendan first started hearing them “discussing their options”… but there really is NO FRICKIN’ WAY that Marsh could have even been very far south on the two-track ( much less down near the BSR ) at the time when Frisby dropped him off at the GM Supt. Truck.
If there was an actual ARGUMENT… then it VERY LIKELY came sometime AFTER that when the other 3 Blue Ridge Hotshots WOULD have been onboard the other 3 GM vehicles.
More to come… I’m sure.
Note —-In most cases the crew truck radios are probably all on Priority Crew net. So they can communicate back and forth during transient.
so When all the trucks were started they immediately went to Crew net.
Also McDonough time frame may be a little of as to what was said and when. After he started the trucks. Also the BR crew would have herd
the other discussions coming off the ridge and the statements before deployment. They could still as well herd the argument not knowing what they were redacted on.
Copy ( all ) that.
It’s actually hard to say whether what appears to be ‘new’ little of tidbits of information coming out in the PDC article really are ‘new’ quotes from Palladini himself… or even just ’embellishments’ on the part of YAR ( Yet Another Reporter ).
It SOUNDED ( in the PDC article ) like adding this little new tidbit about Brendan first starting to HEAR this crucial stuff the moment he cranked the key on the GM Supt truck was this new YAR reporting more detail from Palladini…
…but it could have just been an ’embellishment’.
That STORY that Brendan “heard them discussing their options” just moments after Frisby dropped him off and then continued south to pick up some drivers has actually been ‘out there’ for quite some time.
The SAIR itself said that is when Brendan first heard them “discussing their options” Right after getting dropped off at the GM Supt and Chase trucks by Frisby.
So maybe the reporter was ‘remembering’ that already-published testimony and was taking the liberty of ADDING it to this new information from Paladini.
Either way… we are still NOT getting the FULL picture (yet) of exactly WHAT Brendan heard… and WHEN.
“Discussing your options” is not “Having an argument”… nor does it describe someone “ordering” someone to do anything.
THAT all has to be LATER than whatever Brendan heard as soon as he cranked the GM Supt Truck up.
People still wonder if we are ever really going to hear the WHY component here.
As in… WHY was it so frickin’ important to Eric Marsh that those men take that risk and get to the BSR that Marsh would even WANT to argue with the wishes of his own trusted Captain about it.
I believe there’s still a chance the answer to that MIGHT be in this actual “discussing their options” conversation that both the SAIR and ADOSH reports have ALWAYS said Brendan fully heard.
I have been going thru the daily courier and picked up additional things.
\
Paladini said the Reporter who contacted him—-already knew mch of the information and was asking for conformation. They already had 70 or 80 percent of the information. HE SAID
Paladini also said—–The only document I did of the conversation (with Willis) was a memo to the City Council,. Which cannot be released to the public due to Attorney–Client Privilege.
_————-The City is his Client any thing discussed between them is Private———-
A few other little odds and ends but those stood out.
If in fact Marsh said Yeah I know I’m sorry———-Then he was admitting to the crew it was his fault and responsibility they were where they were and if we have or when we get that as being said then his admission and apology goes to all of us out here, The Families, Fire Fighters and the public That I hope is worth a lot to us all. It won’t ease the pain but I hope it is a comfort to the sole.
Brendan it is your turn to give your Brothers and there families PEACE———
Reply to Bob Powers post on April 9, 2015 at 2:38 pm
>> Bob Powers said…
>> Paladini said the Reporter who contacted him— already knew much of the
>> information and was asking for conformation. They already had 70 or 80
>> percent of the information. HE SAID
I wonder, though, if the reporters really didn’t know any more that what was stated by the Arizona Forestry lawyers to Judge Mosesso in those documents when they were telling the Judge EXACTLY what McDonough was EXPECTED to testify to.
It really was a pretty ‘complete picture’… just lacking critical details.
So maybe Paladini just *thought* they knew ‘almost all of it’ without putting 2 and 2 together and realizing that ‘almost all of it’ was, in fact, already published in those ALJ Hearing documents.
Only the reporters themselves could now say how much of ‘what they knew and/or suspected and/or were trying to CONFIRM with Paladini came solely from the published ALJ documents… or whether the reporters (also) had ‘other sources’.
>> Bob Powers also said…
>>
>> Paladini also said—–The only document I did of the conversation (with Willis)
>> was a memo to the City Council,. Which cannot be released to the public
>> due to Attorney–Client Privilege.
>> ————-The City is his Client any thing discussed between them is Private———-
No. It is NOT.
That might be the way Paladini ( the lawyer ) is looking at it… but Paladini ( the civil servant and employee of a municipality ) needs to check his paystub and remember who it is ( and WHAT it is ) he actually WORKS for.
Whether or not ‘City Attorneys’ or other ‘Government employed Lawyers’ can invoke ‘attorney-client privilege’ is a long-debated topic and there are all kinds of ‘relevant’ case histories out there.
The argument essentially comes down to whether being an attorney for a Governmental Agency is PRIMARILY like being a ‘private lawyer’ with ‘private clients’ or not… or whether there is a more over-riding ( and fundamental ) responsibility for ‘transparency’ than one would expected between private attorneys and their private clients.
In other words… are ‘government attorneys’ government FIRST… and attorneys SECOND…
or is it the other way around.
Is the ‘attorney-client’ privilege they might claim based more on FUNCTION ( in a job capacity ) or it is based more on actual PRIVILEGE.
We now know there is a PUBLIC DOCUMENT sitting around somewhere.
It just so happens to have been sent by at ‘Government Attorney’ ( on the PUBLIC payroll ) to other ‘Government Officials’ ( also on the PUBLIC payroll ).
The ‘Freedom of Information Act’ (FOIA) has no specific ‘exception’ for ‘attorney-client’ privilege privacy claims.
I don’t think there will be any GREAT revelations ( as far as detail goes ) in seeing that actual ‘memo’ that Paladini says he sent to the City Council. It’s purpose was probably just to advise the City Council about the City’s ‘liabilities’ if this information ‘came out’ ( since Eric Marsh really WAS an employee of the City of Prescott ).
It WOULD be interesting to know, however, WHAT Paldini was ‘advising’ the Prescott City Council about all this.
Did he now think the City *might* be open to ‘other liabilities’ if this information turns out to be TRUE… or did he think it didn’t much matter and they could still invoke the same ‘worker’s compensation protections and exceptions’ that got them dropped from the original ( and ongoing ) ‘wrongful death’ suits?
>> Bob Powers also said…
>>
>> If in fact Marsh said Yeah I know I’m sorry———-Then he was admitting
>> to the crew it was his fault and responsibility they were where they were
Yes. There really wouldn’t be any other way to interpret that if it is true.
That being said… there is still a LOT that we do NOT KNOW regarding the ‘context’.
It really all depends WHEN Steed’s (supposed) “We aren’t going to make it ( to the ranch )” statement and then Marsh’s (supposed) “Yeah. I know. I’m sorry” exchange actually took place.
Was there actually any sense of URGENCY during this exchange?
What I mean is… did the parties involved actually fully realize yet that this was about to lead to an actual DEPLOYMENT… or did they still think it was a ‘survivable screwup’?
If Steed hadn’t seen any fire BEHIND them yet… did his “We’re not going to make it ( to the Ranch )” mean that he still had plans to just “turn around and go back”?
Marsh’s “I’m sorry” could mean an awful lot of different things, depending on exactly WHEN it was said and how much ‘context’ is implied by it.
Was it…
“I’m sorry. Even I can see you can’t make it here now. I hope you have time to retreat.”
OR
“I’m sorry. I guess you’re going to have to deploy out there. I hope you survive.”
OR
“I’m sorry. This looks fatal.”
Subtle differences, maybe… but each one tells a different ‘story’ about what happened NEXT… and WHY Marsh might have then decided to ‘join them’.
If there was actually HOPE that a deployment would be survivable… then Marsh really might have thought he could be of ‘help’ out there.
If there was actually NO HOPE of survival ( and both Marsh and Steed pretty much knew it )… then Marsh’s decision to ‘join them’ represents more of “deciding to fall on his sword” moment than any attempt to ‘help them’.
So the TIMING and the CONTEXT is still very important to know, here, on some of these newly reports ‘statements’ coming out of that box canyon.
WTKTT
My previous experience working for a city and sitting in on meetings also running for City council . I have learned when a city hired lawyer requests a closed meeting to discuss legal information that discussion is confidential and any legal briefs to the Council as well. A memo is a legal brief to the council in this case.
Any in chambers discussion on legal matters is not released to the public went thru a 8 months process at a little town called Filer where I worked concerning a Police officer. The city council had severial closed door sessions with the City Lawyer no Minuets were ever released. The Lawyer was also the City Attorney for Twin Falls and had been for 15 years so he knew his law.
There are some things the City Council can go into private session for.
Yes… but anytime they do… the SUBJECT of that ‘Executive Session’ MUST be clearly described in the PUBLIC minutes of the meeting when that ‘Executive Session’ was called.
This actually has nothing to do with the ‘communication’ that Paladini says he had with the “Prescott City Council”.
Paladini is quoted in the latest article as saying he sent a MEMO.
From the latest PDC article…
—————————————————————-
“The only document I did of the conversation (with Willis) was a MEMO to the City Council,” Paladini said. He maintained that the MEMO could not be released to the public because of the protection of “attorney-client privilege.”
—————————————————————-
What Paladini himself doesn’t seem to realize is that by doing these interviews with the media… and thereby actually revealing the SUBJECT and the CONTENT of what was in his MEMO… it will now be VERY hard for either Paladini or the Prescott City Council to claim ‘attorney-client’ privilege for that original MEMO from Paladini when/if it is requested via “Arizona Open Records” laws.
Here’s something from a site that talks about ‘attorney-client’ privilege in general… and doesn’t even get into the fact that CITY attorneys ( PUBLIC employees ) can’t even claim the same depth of ‘attorney-client’ privilege that private attorneys can…
————————————————————
Communications MUST be kept CONFIDENTIAL for the attorney-client privilege to apply. If the SUBSTANCE of attorney-client communications is DISCLOSED to persons outside the organization – or even to persons within the organization who are not directly involved in the matter – the attorney-client privilege may be extinguished.
————————————————————
The MEDIA counts as ‘persons outside the organization’ with regards to this memo that he sent to the Prescott City Council.
Now that Paladini has talked to the MEDIA about ‘the information’… it’s gonna be hard for him to say that memo is still ‘protected’.
All that being said…
I’ll repeat what I said above.
I don’t think there are any ‘revelations’ to be had in the content of that memo… other than ( perhaps ) finding out exactly whether Paladini now thought that if this NEW information turned out to be TRUE… what that might do to Prescott’s LIABILITY situation.
I’d still like to see that memo, though…. and what he told them about that.
Good Points things are starting to drop like flies——–
Whether that MEMO that Paladini admits he sent to the Prescott City Council ever sees the light of day…
…the vary fact that a City Attorney would be choosing to send a MEMO to the City Council at all regarding something some FORMER City Employee ( Brendan ) was now ‘saying’ is almost automatic proof that the City Attorney DID sense some new LIABILITY involved if the information was correct.
If the City Attorney was now sensing ‘possible new liabilities’ for the City and he did NOT inform the City Council about it right away… then he could be accused later of ‘negligence’ with regards to his own responsibilities to the City.
Wrap that all up… and I think it’s pretty safe to say that no matter what Willis says now… City Attorney Jon Paladini WAS convinced ( following their first meeting/discussion ) that a former employee of the City of Prescott had very likely ORDERED the other Prescott City Employees to take actions that resulted in their deaths… and he damn well better give the City Council a ‘heads-up’ on that.
WTKTT said,
WantsToKnowTheTruth says
April 6, 2015 at 9:15 pm
I think I’m about to ask a crazy question.
Actually… I’m sure of it.
I’m about to ask a crazy question.
WHERE did the REQUIREMENT come from that these guys/gals have to be dressed ( and functioning as ) PACK MULES pretty much EVERY MOMENT while they are actually ‘working’ and ‘cutting line’?
When you are ACTUALLY ‘cutting line’… and there is no immediate danger… why can’t you take your frickin’ pack OFF?
Of course it should be RIGHT THERE near you ( or no more than a few paces away )… but where did the REQUIREMENT come from that you have to WEAR the frickin’ thing EVERY MOMENT?
If something happens SO quickly that you can’t even take a few steps and pull your precious ‘fire shelter’ out of the bottom of your pack… then you probably don’t have the minimum 25 seconds to even use the damn thing, anyway, right?
Why is it absolutely VERBOTEN to take the pack OFF, at ANY time while you are actually just ‘swinging an axe’ or ‘scraping the ground’?
I say,
Well…as luck would have it, I can actually answer that question for you, complete with photographic evidence of a big screw up on my part. I just uploaded the photos to a hobby web site I am building. I think these are the most interesting photos ever taken on a wildfire I was on, because they actually capture a burn over with a few of my guys (Happy Jack Hotshots) and me.
We were the only crew on typical Tonto National Forest desert fire, we were trying to catch it, the crew was fragmented into miscellaneous modules, I usually did not cut fire line with the crew, but I was that day since I could not direct the crew as a unit because we were so broken down into such small units because of the extreme chaos.
So I gathered a few guys and started cutting line on the fire that was blowing out on multiple fronts. So I guess this was a fire we were the initial attack on that I forgot about when I wrote down below I only remembered one fire. So yes, Elizabeth, hotshots DO initial attack, it’s just that it is more common for engines, helitack and smokejumpers to do so. I know there a quite a few others I have also forgotten about.
1. Shows the advance front of a typical Tonto National Forest desert fire.
2. Shows the same fire front a short time later, much closer.
3. This is the key photo, it shows me at the front of a four man unit. The photo was taken just as the fire really blew up and I am caught spinning on my heals to run. The man behind me was the Squad Boss for Squad II, and he was caught recoiling from the intense heat a split second after me, but he has not yet turned to run, and the two crewmen behind him are still heads down cutting line unaware that we are getting ready to di di mau most ricky tick.
We ran into an area that did not have as much fuel while were actually burned over. I had taken my web gear with 4 quart canteens, my radios and my fire shelter in addition to my backpack which contained spare batteries, headlamp, poncho, rations, and another gallon of water, etc. off a few minutes before I started cutting line to make some adjustments when the fire blew out. I started cutting line with the fragmented squad without putting my gear back on, that is how fast the fire blew out. You can see fire shelters and gear on the others in the photo.
4. The last photo is the saddest one of all, it shows me wandering around aimlessly looking for my gear in the black after the fire front passed. Of course everything looked different with the vegetation burned off and I couldn’t find where I had put my gear down for some time. It was very embarrassing.
Here is the link to where I just posted the photos for your information and amusement so you can understand why it is “Why is it absolutely VERBOTEN to take the pack OFF, at ANY time while you are actually just ‘swinging an axe’ or ‘scraping the ground’?” and have a chuckle at my expense, since I can laugh about it now.
http://www.ourfiregods.com/reserved1.html
Unlike wildland firefighters of today, we did not consider the fire shelter a viable option since they were new to us and there had never been any deployments at that time. Even after there were successful deployments, I never considered the fire shelter to be a viable option. Running…yes, deploying a fire shelter…no.
Which is why I still believe my much earlier comments that the Granite Mountain Hotshots should have run, since they were deploying their fire shelters in an area that was not survivable due to the long flame lengths and extreme temperature.
No matter how bad my chances were to survive by running, I would rather die on me feet than lay down in the dirt to be burned alive. I am getting a little off topic here, but I believe the pendulum has swung the other way too far today with wildland firefighters believing in their fire shelters way too much and that is a direct result of the agencies trying to convince firefighters over the past few decades that fire shelters will save them.
The area the GMHS deployed in was obviously way to small to survive in per “How Big Is Big Enough.”
Correction, after looking closer at the last photo, I can see the Coconino National Forest radio around my waist and what would have been the fire net (Tonto National Forest) in my right hand.
The Picture show was like steeping back in time a lot of old memories of the life and times of a HS crew———Thanks Gary
right on
And yes, It really bothers me that one of the lessons learned from the Yarnell Hill Fire seems to be, “Let’s see if we can build a bigger, heavier, bulkier fire shelter and put even more emphasis on training firefighters fire shelters can save them, thereby actually ENCOURGING them take more risks and ignore more of the rules”, which is why I believe that although Mr. Turbyfill’s video is impressive, I strongly believe his passion is misplace and may have unintended consequence for wildland firefighters in the future.
I believe the families of the Granite Mountain Hotshots should be deferred to in every way possible regarding every emotional ( a memorial etc.) aspect of this tragedy, but they should be politely and respectfully ignored when it comes to lessons learned or how the wildland firefighting community should move forward. They lack the experience to make those kinds of recommendations. And I am truly sorry if that comment offends anyone, but I am not sorry for making the comment..
The Granite Mountain Hotshots didn’t die because their fire shelters were inadequate, they died because somebody in a leadership position on the GMHS taught them that, “The 10 Standard Firefighters Orders were hillbilly…old and that they were a lot smarter than that nowadays.”
Gary… thank you for ALL your posting above on this.
You also captured the ‘context’ in which I actually asked that ‘crazy question’.
It was way down below in a thread that was talking about the recent announcement ( right in the middle of these supposed ‘negotiations’ with GM family members ) from the U.S. Forestry Service that they ARE, in fact, going AHEAD with a ‘new shelter design’ as a direct result of the Yarnell incident.
I, myself, don’t have much of an opinion about whether this is a GOOD idea, or a BAD idea.
The question I asked was along the lines of “If it turns out that the NEW design is FAR SUPERIOR to the old one and DOES represent significantly IMPROVED chances of surviving a horrible situation… but there is most definitely a new WEIGHT component involved… will the advantages be enough to justify changing the existing RULE that you have to wear that entire friggin’ pack assembly ( shelter included ) every friggin’ moment… even when you are NOT in situations where it’s possible to get ‘caught off guard’.”
It sounds like you answered that.
The ‘hue and cry’ from the ‘experienced’ WFF folks is going to be NO.
Probably even HELL NO.
The big problem that Gary did not say is the amount of energy burned by packing 40 pounds up to a fire and all day in the 100 degree temps it will totally wear you out burn you out dehydrate you there fore you carry more water and that adds to the weight. When you talk about fatigue that is a very real source no matter how good of shape you are in.
May be Rocksteady can give all of us More info on Canada and how not having Fir Shelters is working with regard to Burn Fatalities?
WTKTT – I do agree with you on one very important point, why is it necessary to load wildland firefighters up like pack mules?
I think the 45 pound pack estimation is an inflated figure that I first heard come out of Chief Fraijo’s mouth in a news conference announcing the fatalities of the GMHS. I assumed that was a figure he picked up from Willis and that dumb ass retired USFS public information officer the Arizona State Game and Fish hired and who was loaned to Arizona State Forestry to Speak God’s Words over the fallen at the deployment site. And none of those 3 men have ever been on the line with a hand crew, except for Willis, who went out once with the GMHS once as a tag-a-long.
Water…is very heavy (about 8 pounds per gallon) and is the heaviest thing a wildland firefighter has to carry, especially on desert fires where it is necessary to carry 2 gallons for a day shift and 1.5 gallons for a night shift because re-supply is always hit and miss. But normally 1 gallon is sufficient for most fires.
And then here is a list of the kinds of things most experienced wildland firefighters carry in their day packs to give you an idea of the weight that is involved. And a great deal our weight used to be the headlamps that contained 4 D batteries, and we carried 4 D replacement batteries. In addition, I usually had to carry 2 heavy handheld radios, crew net and fire net with replacement batteries that were heavy. Today’s firefighters are carrying 1 lighter digital radio and LED headlamps with very small lightweight batteries and they should not have to carry replacement batteries.
Here is the list a well equipped firefighters should carry to survive a “Coyote” camp situation with limited resupply in relative comfort;.
Fire shelter, 4 fusees, 1 gallon of water, headlamp, poncho (for rain or sun protection & to wrap up in with a space blanket) space blanket, nylon cord (to make a hootch) head lamp, ration, reserve food (dried fruit, nuts, granola bars, jerky), spare pair of gloves, extra bandanas, compass and signal mirror.
That should be about 25 pounds of weight…max. I really don’t know where the 45 pound weight estimate is coming from. I couldn’t cut line for up to 16 hours with 45 pounds on my back and banging me in the back of my head.
And that is what the well dressed firefighter is carrying and is what I considered to be a minimum, although some guys tougher than me just went out with just their rat tucked in their shirt and 2 government quart canteens on their fire shelter belt. We also liked to carry miniature bottles of Tabasco sauce to make the old school gag-a-maggot C rations edible.
And here is some additional info why I see new heavier fire shelter as a real problem for future firefighters. Now…this is just one example of a common phenomenon that is similar to why some people (especially at first) quit wearing seat belts when air bags came out.
A few years ago, I attended a seminar regarding risk taking by those in law enforcement but it apples just as well to firefighters, the presenter used this example and he had all of the stats to back it up, which I don’t have, but you will still get the picture.
When the California Highway Patrol switched from Harley Davidson motorcycles to BMW motorcycles for their motor officers, their officer involved accident rate was supposed to drop by X because the new motorcycles handled so much better, where lighter and most importantly had a vastly improved braking system.
But their accident rate stayed about the same or actually went up. Why? Because the motor officers felt so cocky about their new rides, they went faster and took more chances.
That is what I’m afraid could happen with a bigger, heavier, bulkier fire shelter with increased emphasis on training and using them. Wildland firefighters will probably take additional risks they would not have otherwise taken with their old fire shelters because they believe the new magic cocoons will save them if they screw up, it’s just human nature, especially for many of those who are involved in wildland firefighters who are first and foremost…adrenaline junkies.
That is what I mean by “unintended consequences”, I think there should be a renewed emphasis put on following the rules or at least not disregarding them with as much contempt as the Granite Mountain Hotshots did according to Brendan McDonough.
Gary… it is hard to NOT agree with all your points about ‘improvements’ in PPE actually resulting in people just taking even MORE chances… ESPECIALLY if published test results on any new shelter design really are IMPRESSIVE and would tend to make FFs think the damn things will protect them in just about ANY situation.
I, myself, do NOT have the expertise ( or the influence ) to make any real decision about that.
I have two distinct ‘OF COURSE’ alarms in my head about that.
OF COURSE people should follow the hard-wrought rules of their profession and NEVER allow themselves to be put in a situation where they are depending on their PPE to save their lives.
But also…
OF COURSE if that ever ‘accidentally’ happens… I sure as hell would WANT to have the BEST PPE available that would let me come home to my family and then think about how badly I fucked up… ( for the rest of my natural life ).
I totally agree with your last paragraph.
Regardless of any technology improvements… there should have been a COMPLETE FULL STOP and REALITY CHECK in the ‘industry’ to make SURE there aren’t more units out there in the field who think that the RULES of their profession are just weak ‘guidelines’ they can choose to follow ( or not ) as it suits their own personal ambitions.
And it’s still not too late for that to happen.
If a football player just spikes a ball in and end-zone… he/she can be fined and/or ‘taken out of service’ for a number of games.
If ANY field unit is caught treating the WFF rules as just ‘guidelines’… the penalty should be ‘removal from the game’.
There should be CONSEQUENCES for ‘ignoring the rules’… even when it turns into a ‘bad decision with a good outcome’ and nobody died ( yet ).
Tighten up the ship. Do it NOW.
It could prevent this from happening again.
Yes, the issue is certainly complicated. I guess I just would like people to understand that a heavier and bulkier fire shelter is not going to be a magic bullet that will save firefighters the next time they get is a similar situation and there may be unintended consequences,.
With all this deep subterfuge the more and more I feel that there were surveillance cameras at the Boulder Springs Ranch pointing in the direction of the deployment sight. Thus they must have picked up the progression of the fire and ultimately Marsh walking back up to meet his men. This would be crucial evidence and with everything else that has been buried, there is no wonder why the Helm’s kept quiet as well. How chilling are these new revelations concerning the last conversations between Steed and Marsh? If Marsh really were down at the BSR or in the general vicinity, how could he not see the fire approaching as stated a billion times before on this site? These are deep, deep waters and we are only witnessing just a fraction of this whole ordeal.
Reply to John post on April 9, 2015 at 10:29 am
>> John said…
>>
>> With all this deep subterfuge the more and more I feel that there were
>> surveillance cameras at the Boulder Springs Ranch pointing in the
>> direction of the deployment sight. Thus they must have picked up the
>> progression of the fire and ultimately Marsh walking back up to meet
>> his men. This would be crucial evidence
Speaking only for myself… I have researched this as best as I possibly can using the existing body of published photographs taken in/around the Boulder Springs Ranch,
and I can find NO photographic evidence of any actual security cameras mounted anywhere on the WEST side of the BSR compound.
There are still some mysterious little ‘black boxes’ that are mounted right under the corners of the roof of the residence, back by the GARAGE, but there is no PUBLIC photo that I know of with good enough resolution to determine WHAT those ‘little black boxes’ really are.
If they WERE cameras… then it WOULD appear they were facing WEST and covering the driveway to the garage ( foreground ) and probably a view out into the box canyon ( background ).
But I repeat… I ( myself ) have been unable to verify WHAT those ‘little black boxes’ really are.
In addition… there is also NOTHING that actually resembles the same camera-with-floodlights that Lee Helm was using on the front gate anywhere on the WEST side of the compound.
There are actual CLOSEUP photos of that front-gate security camera, and it’s pretty LARGE. I definitely don’t see anything like it anywhere else on the compound.
Here is a post from back in Chapter Eleven detailing where those ‘closeup’ photos are in the public evidence record…
** CHAPTER XI ( ELEVEN )
On January 8, 2015 at 9:49 pm, WTKTT said…
** SAIT INVESTIGATOR WACHTER SITE VISIT PHOTOS CONTAIN
** ALL OF THE FOLLOWING…
**
** ACTUAL CLOSEUPS OF BSR FRONT GATE SECURITY CAMERA
** ACTUAL PHOTOS SHOWING SAIT INVESTIGATORS COPYING CAMERA DATA
** ACTUAL PHOTOS OF THE PUMPKIN THAT WAS SET UP AT BSR
In THIS folder in InvestigativeMEDIA’s SAIT online Dropbox…
SAIT-FOIA\Photos and Video\Wachter Site Visit Photos\July 7 visit
Actual CLOSEUPS of the Helm’s front gate security camera…
IMG_1012
IMG_1013 ( Best closeup view of Helm’s front gate security camera )
IMG_1014
What SAIT investigator Wachter actually seemed to be doing here was taking closeups of parts of the Boulder Springs Ranch that were showing how the EMBERS and ASH got all over everything. He was particularly fascinated with this as he was walking around the compound photographing windows, sides of buildings… and the actual front gate SECURITY camera itself ( covered with ASH ).
IMG_1015 through IMG_1019 also show the camera mounted on the corner of the building and pointed at the main gate.
If you zoom in on the camera lens… it says ‘spec technologies’ in an oval around the camera lens.
* SPECO TECHNOLGIES
This is the ‘product info’ page for the exact camera used at the Helm’s Ranch…
http://www.specotech.com/index.php/products/video/cameras/analog/item/106-ht7048irvf
Product information…
————————————————————————-
Analog Camera: HT7048IRVF
Day/Night Weather Resistant Bullet Cameras
with Digital Noise Reduction, 2.8-12mm Lens, Dark Grey Housing
Oval shape – Two spotlights attached.
————————————————————————-
>> John also said…
>>
>> and with everything else that has been buried, there is no wonder why
>> the Helm’s kept quiet as well.
There are no actual ‘transcripts’ or ‘recordings’ of any of the ‘interviews’ that both the SAIT and ADOSH investigation teams had with Lee and D.J. Helm.
The best we get are just some references to them ( and what they were doing around the time of the burnover ) in the SAIR document itself… and then some short notes in the ADOSH file from their on-site interview with them.
There is only one short note in the ADOSH notes about them saying they never saw ANY firefighter at or near the compound that afternoon… even while they were out there just before the fire reached the area and putting all their animals in the barn(s).
There is NO evidence ( or notes ) about any investigator ever even thinking to ASK them if they had Security Cameras on the WEST side of the compound in addition to the one fixed on the EAST ( main ) gate.
>> John also said…
>>
>> How chilling are these new revelations concerning the last conversations
>> between Steed and Marsh? If Marsh really were down at the BSR or in
>> the general vicinity, how could he not see the fire approaching as stated
>> a billion times before on this site? These are deep, deep waters and
>> we are only witnessing just a fraction of this whole ordeal.
Yes. All along… as the “pull” theory had been being discussed here on this forum ( that Marsh was out AHEAD of the others and not BEHIND them )… it has been a given that the moment that theory could be proved… the most IMPORTANT question would then be HOW could Eric Marsh have actually been out AHEAD of the men and not have seen the impending danger with enough time to have ( perhaps ) averted the tragedy.
TIME was critical. Even few minutes either way MIGHT have made the difference between life of death that afternoon.
The EXACT details about how Marsh could have been in a position to be their “Forward Lookout”… but everyone ended up dying anyway… will then be the ongoing ‘mystery’ until a good explanation is found.
Not much new in today’s Courier article that adds to what the Republic published last weekend. Paladini does relate what the reported response was after Steed radioed to Marsh the “we’re not going to make it” transmission.
Also, it doesn’t sound like Brendan’s lawyer is in a big hurry to let the facts see the light of day.
http://dcourier.com/main.asp?SectionID=1&SubSectionID=1&ArticleID=143964
As I read the Article I noted some new information.
When Steed called Marsh and said were not going to make it—-
—–Marsh said Yeah I know I’m sorry—-
More on Willis and Paladini ——-
They both went to the State Fire Attorneys and ADOSH Attorneys with the story and Willis retold it there Paladini was Willis Attorney at that discussion on what McDonough had told Willis.
It was also discussed with the city council.
With all this repeat it seems that Paladini would have the story down pat by now which means what was released is probable what was said to Willis By McDonough.
Very interesting information———–..
Willis testimony is admissible in court. It is not second hand.
What ever McDonough told Willis is direct testimony the same as telling an investigator. Thus Willis could well be called to testify now or latter at the scheduled hearing
Paladini was told by Willis which is hear say in a court of law.
Willis can testify on what he was told—- but Paladini can not testify on what Willis told him. he also could have heard the same from McDonough—. Being his attorney at the time he is exempt from being called as a witness to any thing McDonough said to him.
Out side a court of Law as the City Attorney he can now speak for the City.
My guess he dose not want himself or the City pulled into the secret web of not disclosing the information. He is I believe Protecting the City as there Lawyer.
Once the information was given to the State and ADOSH. The City and Paladini were free to do what ever.
There is another Story here with Willis and maybe why he quickly retired.
He also may have a Lawyer for all the backlash that will come his way.
As I said there is more to come from this chess game being played by Paladini, Willis and McDonough.
My same thoughts exactly, regarding your comments on the city attorney.
He does not operate in a vacuum. Any statements he made were with the knowledge and approval of his superiors.
The city is not being accused of any wrongdoing in any of the current lawsuits, and with the council, city manager (probably), city attorney, and whoever else in the fire department that knew about this information since last October, there was certainly a nearing point in time when the City could be accused of sitting on and covering this up.
This info release has removed the city from THAT huge potential mess.
And now, finally this:
4/9/2015 6:01:00 AM
Chronology of recent filings in State Forestry appeal of hefty fines
Joanna Dodder Nellans
The Daily Courier
“Here is a condensed chronology of some of the case filings in State Forestry’s appeal of fines related to the deaths of the 19 Granite Mountain Hotshots in the Yarnell Hill wildfire, along with background information from previous Daily Courier articles.”
http://dcourier.com/main.asp?SectionID=1&subsectionID=1086&articleID=143963
There are an unusual number of fragmented threads and conversations going on just below… but given everything that has been ‘popping’ lately in the media… that is to be expected.
I’m on airplanes all day again today so apologies for not placing some of the following short responses to things people were asking me to comment on down exactly where they should be.
I will try to do that when I get back near my desktop but for now I just wanted to let some now that I DID see the comments below and I will respond better when I can.
Bob Powers, down below, regarding information from his sources that is now ( and always has been? ) ADOSH trying to block any under-oath deposition of McDonough.
ME: No reason not to trust your sources. They could be right. I was only referring below to statements ADOSH lawyers have, in fact made, in various ALJ Hearing Files. Some of those statements have always SEEMED to indicate that ADOSH really doesn’t give a flying crap WHAT Brendan McDonough is trying to now ‘get off his chest’ and they don’t think it could possibly affect or mitigate any of the already issued citations.
Below… John Dougherty posted that known part of Brendan’s ADOSH interview where he SEEMS to be suggesting that everyone out on that ridge knew THAT MORNING that the two-track headed to the Boulder Springs Ranch.
ME: This statement from Brendan has always been so disjointed and contains so much ‘hemming and hawing’ it’s hard to tell what Brendan was really tetifying to. Did he really mean they were all fully aware that the two-track would eventually take a hellacious left hand turn and then go east? Hard to say… and the investigators really were so generally BAD at ‘ cutting through the crap’ in ALL these interviews the chance was lost to get Brendan to clarify what the hell he was actually testifying to.
More later…
Another thing we have mentioned, regarding how the Yarnell Hill Fire might have positioned itself to burn down the large bowl and then up the fuel-filled bowl in which the Granite Mountain Hotshots deployed, has been spotting.
On March 12, 2015, Wildland Fire Lessons Lessons pusblished a video of a webinar called “Spot Fires.”
“Brian Potter, a research meteorologist with the USDA Forest Service, presented a summary of the state of science behind spot fires. Spotting is one characteristic of “extreme fire behavior,” capable of short range acceleration of fires as well as producing long-distance spot fires that complicate management efforts. The presentation will summarize current knowledge and tools, as well as knowledge gaps.”
https://youtu.be/G8N6A8lN6ew?list=PLTErVrHH6uJja-ljtn7z9Q5Sz9WtCPGw1
A new Yarnell Hill ALJ hearing file addition to day. If I read it right it is pushing a hearing out to OCTOBER from AUGEST.
No SETTLEMENTS more requests between the State and ADOSH.
I did note a request for all of BR statements.
As I said yesterday it aint over by a long shot—-
The Tribunal from what I read was postponed from the 7th do to Personal Lawyer Problems.
WTKTT I am sure will post the info I don’t have his magic wand, To old to understand MAGIC.
The ALJ Hearing file page is here…
https://sites.google.com/site/yarnellhillinformation/home/yarnellhillaljhearingfile
The TWO new documents just filed TODAY ( at the bottom of the page ) are…
2015_03 Updated 04.03.15.pdf – Filed March 2015 – 5 hours ago
2015_04 Updated 04.06.15.pdf – Filed March 2015 – 5 hours ago
I’ve been on airplanes all day today ( and will be tomorrow ) and these documents barely fit on this stupidphone I have… so I can’t ‘cut and paste’ any of the VERY interesting things revealed in these documents… but I will do so as soon as I can.
I also have OTHER ABC15 Helicopter footage ‘crossfades’ to post when I get back near my desktop computer.
My VERY quick ‘evaluation’ of these two new documents ( that I still haven’t even finished reading yet )…
* SUMMARY
There is absolutely NO SIGN of any ‘settlement’ being reached or even any chance of that happening.
It looks like the ‘court calendar’ is about to become ‘unfrozen’ again and then it is FULL SPEED AHEAD to a full-blown HEARING.
And YES… because of the ‘pause’ in the calendar for ‘negotiations’ ( which have apparently totally FAILED ) and some very sad personal issues regarding some of the attorneys involved ( mother of one just had a heart attack, another suffered a bad fall injury, etc. ) the DATE for the actual HEARING in this “Arizona Forestry vs. ADOSH” case now seems to have been pushed ahead ( again ) from July 8, 2015 to October 13, 2015.
That’s a THREE MONTH increase.
* 2015_03 Updated 04.03.15.pdf – Filed March 2015 – 5 hours ago
This document is HUGE and contains TONS of ‘lawyer blah-blah’.
From what I can tell… it’s really mostly just all about Arizona Forestry now filing individual motions of dismissal requests for some/all of the actual ADOSH ‘citations’… and they also want that process to follow more closely the actual ‘Civil Case’ procedures than the ‘ALJ procedures’.
I have NOT finished reading this document.
It’s a testament to “lawyer blah-blah” and the number of trees they can kill.
Bottom line here is just more proof that the ‘court calendar’ is coming ‘unfrozen’ again shortly and there has been NO ‘settlement’ reached in this case.
* 2015_04 Updated 04.06.15.pdf – Filed March 2015 – 5 hours ago
Contains request(s) for the COMPLETE SAIT Interview notes and/or transcriptions of the SAIT’s interviews with any/all Blue Ridge Hotshots.
Even ADOSH can’t believe the bullshit notes the SAIT actually published from those interviews is really all they have…. given that Mike Dudley stated several previously UNKNOWN statements coming from members of Blue Ridge that he seemed to be recalling from those interviews but none of that was in the published SAIT Blue Ridge interview notes.
Arizona Forestry responds by saying that the SAIT people were NOT ’employees’ of Arizona Forestry and they don’t even know what the SAIT really had or didn’t have. They say all THEY ever got was the same obtuse and dis-jointed crap that was released in the “SAIT Interview Notes” document.
Interestingly enough… in order to ‘press their point’ and prove to Judge Mosesso that they DID supply everything the SAIT gave them to ADOSH already… they reprint their complete MANIFEST of the SAIT documents they received.
That MANIFEST shows some documents that I don’t think have ever actually been seen before, and it also has a ‘column’ that indicates exactly HOW ( As in… from WHO ) those documents/photos/videos entered into the SAIT’s possession.
Just TWO of the MANY interesting things to note in THAT manifest would be…
1) The SAIT has NO IDEA where the CD with Brendan’s iPhone photos and videos came from. They also have no idea if it contains ALL of the photos and videos that Brendan might have shot that day ( with accompanying audio ).
It is STILL possible that Brendan McDonough himself not only HEARD GM intra-crew conversations that has never reported to investigators… but that he, himself, might have also recorded some video/audio of one or more of these conversations which has also never seen the light of day.
2) The says they had the ‘Helmet Camera’ video early on… but they listed the SOURCE as simply “Unknown Firefighter”. So even the SAIT didn’t really want anyone to know that PNF off-the-radar hire Aaron Hulburd was ever at the Yarnell Fire and was the one actually shooting that video.
There’s more… but I am ‘outta time’.
Plane is ‘on approach’ to landing and gotta turn this puppy off.
After reading through a bit of the 850 page file and then giving up after a hundred or so pages, I only found one thing of note.
One of the citations that ADF is contesting is in regards to the “danger” that the resources in Div Z were placed in.
All of the interviews and documents cited concur with Marquez’s assertion that NO resources were ever assigned to Div Z. This includes interviews with both OPS and Marquez, himself. Add to that, that fact that no resource has ever stated that they were assigned by OPS to Zulu.
Even though there were plenty of resources east of the grader who were in great peril that afternoon, I think ADF has a good chance of getting this citation tossed on this technicality.
On another note, Marquez asserts no Div break was ever established, even though, as I recall, I believe Marsh told Able via phone that the grader was the “new” break, or that they had “worked it out”.
Anyone can choose to “release the hounds” and flood a case with motions… but that doesn’t mean you will get “dogs that will hunt”.
Personally… I think there is all the evidence in the world that there WAS a ‘Division Z’ established on the Yarnell Hill Fire on Sunday, June 30, 2013… and I believe ADOSH has already proved it.
Whether or not the actual ‘boundaries’ were ever fully defined and/or communicated to anyone… and whether or not the resources ‘working’ that now-established geographical ‘Division’ of the fire were ever fully informed they were ‘Division Z’ resources is just part of the astounding ‘screw-ups’ that were taking place that afternoon.
You have a guy ( Marquez ) testifying that he was TOLD he was ‘Division Z’, and he ends up in an ‘argument’ with the other ‘Division A’ about the exact boundaries of ‘Z’. OPS1 Todd Abel himself ( the man running the actual fire ) testified to ADOSH that he recalled ‘Division A’ phoning him and telling him that yes, he and ‘Division Z’ had ‘worked out a boundary’ eventually and it was the old-grader location.
That means that all resources WEST of a north-south line cut through the old-grader location were in ‘Division A’ ( At that time just Granite Mountain ) and all resources EAST of that same north-south Division line were all ( technically ) in “Division Z”.
It will be a hard road to go for the attorneys to actually PROVE that this was NOT the case that day.
They may be able to prove that no one who was now ( technically ) IN Division Z had any friggin’ idea they even WERE… but that is neither here nor there, legally speaking.
If the designated ‘Division Z’ Supervisor had actually REMAINED in the geographic Division he was now assigned ( and being paid ) to ‘Supervise’… maybe they would have.
But he didn’t. ‘Division Z’ went back north and was never ‘down there’ to actually RUN / SUPERVISE the ‘Division’ he had been assigned.
As ADOSH has ( I believe ) already shown… that most likely contributed to ALL of the chaos in ‘Division Z’ and the potential / actual entrapment situations that afternoon.
So, in looking around to find out if Prescott eNews had published what Lynne LaMaster promised in her April 2 article, “CITY ATTORNEY PALADINI COMPLETES INVESTIGATION OF ICMA ‘TAMPERING”
………_Tomorrow we’ll look at some of the differences between the two reports.”
………which they still haven’t done……
I discovered, via a facebook post on Prescott Firefighter’s Last Alarm, that yesterday, on KCYA, there was an interview with Joe Stutler, the person who did the wildland segment of the ICMA Report.
The link on that facebook post goes to a website that doesn’t have the intervew archived.
But KCMA does have it archived and it is here:
It’s the third report down on the page. I don’t know how long it will stay there.
“The report continues to make news. The man who wrote the report says what was released was different than what he wrote.”
http://www.kyca.info
OK here’s a link to the actual mp3:
http://www.kyca.info/audio/news/STUTLER%20WRAP.mp3
Reply to Marti Reed post on April 8, 2015 at 12:35 pm
>> Marti said…
>>
>> So, in looking around to find out if Prescott eNews had published
>> what Lynne LaMaster promised in her April 2 article,
>> “CITY ATTORNEY PALADINI COMPLETES INVESTIGATION
>> OF ICMA ‘TAMPERING”…..
>>
>> “Tomorrow we’ll look at some of the differences between the two reports.”
>>
>> ………which they still haven’t done……
>>
>> I discovered, via a facebook post on Prescott Firefighter’s Last
>> Alarm, that yesterday, on KCYA, there was an interview with
>> Joe Stutler, the person who did the wildland segment of
>> the ICMA Report.
>>
>> The link on that facebook post goes to a website that doesn’t
>> have the intervew archived.
>>
>> But KCMA does have it archived and it is here…
>>
>> Original MP3 audio file of this interview with Joe Stutler…
>>
>> http://www.kyca.info/audio/news/STUTLER%20WRAP.mp3
Thank you for finding this, Marti.
And here is a complete TRANSCRIPT of that RADIO interview with Joe Stutler.
** KYCA RADIO INTERVIEW WITH JOE STUTLER
Joe Stutler was the 3rd party contractor hired by ICMA to do the ‘Wildland’ evaluation for the report ICMA was hired to do for the City of Prescott.
Here he is being interviewed ( LIVE ) by radio station KYCA following Darrell Willis’ accusations ( in his own resignation letter ) that that part of the ICMA report was ‘tampered with’…
COMPLETE TRANSCRIPT OF THIS RADIO INTERVIEW
————————————————————————————
Announcer: The report ( in question ) is the wildland section of the ICMA analysis of the Prescott Fire Department. Former Wildland Division Chief Darrell Willis alleged in his letter of resignation last month that someone had tampered with it.
The man who investigated and wrote the wildland report at the request of the International County Management Association ( ICMA ), which had been retained by the City, was Joe Stutler, senior advisor to the Deschutes County Board of Commissioners in Bend, Oregon.
DID someone tamper with your report?
Joe Stutler:
There’s not a yes or no answer there.
I was asked to work with ICMA on the report for the Prescott Fire Department and my particular area of expertise is wildland fire so I came to Prescott and did the interviews and field trip and looked around and so I put my report together and I sent it in to fellow professionals with ICMA that were dealing with EMS and dispatch and structural and the other aspects of Prescott Fire and I sent that in.
Must have been in February of 2014.
And then, ya know, it was like… ah… did not hear ANYTHING for several months despite several efforts to… ya know… coordinate the overall completion of the report.
And, as I recall, somewhere in June I found out that the ICMA report had been completed and submitted to the City of Prescott… and so I contacted ICMA said “Hey… I understand the report has been released. I’d like a copy of it”.
So when I got the copy of the report it was clear that my submissions to the overall report… the wildland thing… had in fact been changed.
If representatives from ICMA would have contacted me and said “Hey, we’re bringing this report together and let’s talk about these specific recommendations and in the context of the overall report”… I would have had that discussion and perhaps we could have reached common ground on some of the recommendations.
As it turned out… there was NO consultation and my report, that I was given credit for, was, in fact, changed.
And I don’t know WHO did that.
The only thing I know is that when I look at MY report and what I submitted and the final ICMA report… they were different.
The recommendations had been changed without any consultation whatsoever and, in fact, they had hired me to… ya know… do my best to represent the risk assessment. What I saw from a wildland fire perspective for Prescott. And so I did that.
And so I… when I got the report… I made contact with ICMA and I objected.
I said… ya know… that’s not my report and I don’t think it’s accurate in terms of what the risk… or the recommendations.
And so we went back and forth on that some… and finally ICMA says “Hey, we’re going to… uh… and we consent to you… you know… having contact with the City of Prescott and the Fire Chief and the Deputy City Manager to talk about your version of the report”… and I said “That’s great”.
So… within a day or so… I had a conference call with the Fire Chief and the Deputy City Manager… and I had forwarded them MY report… and we talked about the differences and MY assessment… and we had a very good discussion.
And they said thanks… thanked me for that… and then I had a subsequent email from the Chief with an action plan that he had for the report in terms of… you know… what it was going to take for ICMA, or Prescott, to… you know… implement some or all of the report… and I thought… that’s GOOD.
And I… and to… in fairness to the Chief and in fairness to the Deputy City Manager… uh… they listened… they asked good questions… and I… uh… understand that they… uh.. you know… they paid for a report and it’s going to be at that point a BUSINESS decision that the City of Prescott has for… you know… to… ah… implement all or some or none of the report.
That’s entirely up to them.
Announcer: At the request of City Councilman Charlie Arnold, City of Prescott Attorney Jon Paladini conducted and inquiry into Darrell Willis’ accusation of tampering. In a written report to the City Council, Paladini concluded that although there ARE differences in the draft report prepared by Joe Stutler and the final report presented to the City Council by ICMA… he could find NO evidence of tampering.
For the news 1490… I’m Don Steele.
————————————————————————————
END of KYCA RADIO INTERVIEW with Joe Stutler
Bob Powers says APRIL 7, 2015 AT 2:00 PM
http://www.investigativemedia.com/yarnell-hill-fire-chapter-xiii/#comment-288677
This might have got lost to EN and all.
WantsToKnowTheTruth says APRIL 7, 2015 AT 3:26 PM
Reply to Bob Powers post on April 7, 2015 at 2:00 pm
>> Bob Powers said… >> >> This might have got lost to EN and all. >> >> http://www.investigativemedia.com/yarnell-hill-fire-chapter-xiii/#comment-288677
And just in case someone’s mouse is on the fritz today…
On April 6, 2015 at 9:35 pm, Mike Schinstock said…
————————————————————–
Elizabeth said that on the Clear Creek Fire Fred Schoeffler wanted his assistant or Squad Bosses to keep fighting fire after they were no longer comfortable doing so and the assistant or squad bosses basically gave Schoeffler the metaphorical middle finger and moved to the black regardless of Freds view. I was the foreman of the PHS at the time (Friday 14 July 2000 at 1430hrs) That never happened. Period. ————————————————————-
KEY Phrase: THAT NEVER HAPPENED, PERIOD.
Bob Powers says APRIL 7, 2015 AT 4:11 PM
Elizabeth you have no comment on the above statement ???????? It just debunked every thing you have promoted about Fred. and even your sources??????
Elizabeth says APRIL 8, 2015 AT 3:29 AM
Bob, I’m not sure what you are linking to, so I will just say this: I stand by what I said regarding Fred Schoeffler. I sincerely do.
No comment.
Just for the record:
Elizabeth says
APRIL 5, 2015 AT 4:46 PM
On the Clear Creek Fire, your pal Fred Schoeffler wanted his assistant or squad bosses to keep fighting fire AFTER they had decided they were no longer comfortable doing so, and the assistant or squad bosses basically gave Fred the metaphorical middle finger and moved to the black regardless of Fred’s view. That didn’t harm the careers of any of them. For example, Mike Shinstock (who was one of the senior guys under Fred on the Clear Creek Fire, if I recall correctly) ultimately became the Supt. of the Payson Hotshots after Fred was finally out. So senior guys on hotshot crews will absolutely disobey orders or push back if they feel like a Supt. is making unsafe demands. (On the Clear Creek Fire, based on what I was told, I believe Fred ranted while the guys were in or moving to the black, saying something on their crew net like “AM I GOING TO BE THE ONLY ONE OUT HERE FIGHTING FIRE????” Yes, Fred, you are. 🙂 )
I’m going to re-post this way up here at the top so EVERYBODY will see it and understand it, and so I don’t have to keep repeating myself, either in part or in whole.
And then I’m going to completely walk away from it, unless someone has something INTELLIGENT and ACCURATE to say that I feel interested in responding to.
This:
“In this presentation, a more accurate timeline and relevant photos will be presented, to assess how they line up with the presumed wind event, and relevant operational take-aways (such as the need to acknowledge that even the best, most accurate weather forecast might not be able to be linearly used in predicting in detail short term wildland fire behavior) will be discussed.”
I have NEVER assumed that that 3:30 PM forecast should have been “linearly” used in predicting anything “in detail.”
As a matter of fact, THAT has been one of my major points all along. And it’s one of the points that, essentially EN has, exasperatingly, not been able to get through HER head.
And her saying that she knows the “wind event” that was forecasted didn’t happen because she doesn’t seen lawn chairs blowing around in pictures………..
I’ve never talked about “a wind event.” I’m pretty sure most of us have tried to counter that idea over and over again, but “our counselor” has been the one ALL ALONG who’s kept PUSHING it.
I’ve talked about a the thunderstorm with an outflow boundary with winds up to 50 mph, which was actually what was forecasted. Which pushed the fire into a dynamic clockwise (as they do in the northern hemisphere) rotating column.
That is about the CAUSE of the changing prevailing wind (which, by the time 4:30 rolled around, was NOT coming out of the NW, as EN is still scratching her fingernails on the chalkboard while repeatedly trying to convince the universe.
The micro-effects of that thunderstorm outflow boundary are, as I have REPEATEDLY said, basically unpredictable, depending on a multitude of parameters, one of the biggest and most important being TOPOGRAPHY.
None of this is anything NEW to any of us, as has been demonstrated ad nauseum here, who have actually lived and worked in the southwest.
In some ways it’s totally rocket science and, in some other ways it’s totally not rocket science.
THE POINT BEING that when you have a fire like that, in explosive fuels, with that kind of weather heading toward it,
You don’t have to be a rocket scientist to listen to the friggin meteorologist via the friggin FBAN (both of whom ARE probably more of a “rocket scientist” than you are), and QUICKLY find yourself the nicest, clearest, safest place you possibly can (which CAN be VERY DIFFICULT to do IN THE LAST MINUTE) and
HUNKER DOWN.
Somebody DIDN’T DO THAT on the Yarnell Hill Fire. And they’re DEAD.
Fire Weather Behavior 101.
I’m VERY interested in what Fire Weather Behavior Experts have to say (and argue about, because that’s what they do) regarding the Yarnell Hill Fire. I find it absolutely fascinating. I find that rotating column REALLY absolutely fascinating.
That being said, EN is NOT a Fire Weather Behavior Expert.
Not even close.
Marti, says: “I’ve talked about a the thunderstorm with an outflow boundary with winds up to 50 mph, which was actually what was forecasted. Which pushed the fire into a dynamic clockwise (as they do in the northern hemisphere) rotating column.”
Marti, what is your specific support for the last part of your above statement, in which you assert that the alleged outflow boundary winds “pushed the [Yarnell Hill Fire] fire into a dynamic clockwise… rotating column”? That is one of the most interesting theories I have heard in a very long time, and it runs counter to my understand about how a column forms. You saying that outflow boundary winds PUSHED the YHF fire “into a dynamic … rotating column” is something that I have never seen posited by any scientist anywhere (regarding the YHF column or any other column). Maybe you picked it up from your dad, who clearly seems like he was an expert regarding weather. Regardless, I will happily take any citations or intel you are willing to share. Thank you in advance.
I am sure Marty will answer you—
But as usual you do not read this Blog very well or you would see and read about this rotating smoke cloud from WTKTT who also posted pictures.
The heat and wind together can create a fast rising and some times rotating smoke.
its not a tornado as it stays in one place but is highly visible and actually shows rotation.
In the LA Basin when a fire punches thru an inversion layer it is much the same but will pull the Fire with it some times that fast rising smoke column will show rotation
biased on the wind hitting it once above the smog layer or Inversion.
I have see this only a few times but it is quite amazing to watch.
Marti Thanks for your narrative above
Bob, it is you who did not read. Go back and re-read Marti’s comment.
Marti states that “thunderstorm with an outflow boundary with winds up to 50 mph actually PUSHED “the fire into a dynamic clockwise… rotating column.” Marti is saying that the column itself was caused by the “thunderstorm with an outflow boundary.” I have never heard of such a thing, but obviously Marti knows more since her father was a meteorologist, and I am hoping that she will expand on her understanding of the cause of the actual column!
Since you have never been on a real wild land fire and never seen a rotating column or even a fire swirl live you need to look at PICTURES.
As discussed down stream by WTKTT with pictures from Yarnell.
The thunder storm noted Winds did create a rotating column and I have seen it on a few occasions it is not a normal every day thing the conditions
have to be right.
You do not go back and read any thing so do not lecture me.
Bob, I have SEEN pictures of them.
But Marti indicated that the column of the YHF (presumably BOTH columns) was CAUSED by the outflow boundary, which is totally different than what I had been learning elsewhere about HOW columns form. I am trying to figure out where Marti got her intel teaching her that an outflow boundary can cause a column to form, so that I myself can try to learn more about such an interesting theory.
You said:
“Marti indicated that the column of the YHF (presumably BOTH columns) was CAUSED by the outflow boundary,”
EXCUSE ME, but I did not indicate that AT ALL.
The friggin FIRE caused the frigging column.
The outflow boundary wind caused the column to ROTATE.
THAT is what I said.
“I’ve talked about a the thunderstorm with an outflow boundary with winds up to 50 mph, which was actually what was forecasted. Which pushed the fire into a dynamic clockwise (as they do in the northern hemisphere) rotating column.”
Marti—Deep Breathing and again.
Namaste.
Amazing.
Marti, you are now saying that the alleged outflow boundary winds made the column rotate? (You actually said “The outflow boundary wind caused the column to ROTATE”?)
Hm. That’s interesting. Where are you getting that from? I have never heard such a thing, but obviously you know more than I do, because your dad was a meteorologist, so any help you can give on this would be stellar. Thank you! 🙂
And I should have added “I apologize if I am missing some obvious point!”
First off, there were no “alleged” outflow boundary winds.
There has been nothing in the past year and a half, at least so far as I know, that has contested the existence of those outflow boundary winds.
So, all things considered, given what I have seen, I’m willing to accept them as being beyond the definition of alleged.
Regarding what you said:
“Marti, you are now saying that the alleged outflow boundary winds made the column rotate?”
See this, which is inside of this thread, so I guess you think your time is too “valuable” to actually spend about five minutes of your precious time reading this actual thread.
http://www.investigativemedia.com/yarnell-hill-fire-chapter-xiii/#comment-289299
Not to mention ALL of the posts, most of which I wrote this morning, below this one.
You say:
“I have never heard such a thing.”
Apparently, you haven’t been paying attention.
Which doesn’t surprise me, all things considered.
I’ve been saying that the thunderstorm outflow winds cause the fire, and thus, its column, to rotate for MONTHS.
PS.
Please DO your OWN homework.
Marti, you are saying that the COLUMN was rotating because the FIRE was rotating? The FIRE was rotating – that is your contention?
With all due respect, I am pretty sure that that is not how it works….
I already said, in great detail, how and why I might be mistaken.
I am perfectly willing for anybody, who has the creds and the experience to know better, to correct me.
That’s, honestly, why I wrote that post.
I have been writing about a “rotating column” for MONTHS.
Nobody has EVER CHALLENGED me on that.
If the model inside my head is wrong, I would LOVE to know about that.
I watched the Air Study Videos. I haz eyes.
We had an EXTENSIVE conversation about this in Chapter XII.
It is NOT NEW.
There is also THIS:
“Yarnell Hill Fire Geographical Analysis by Tom Dolan.”
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IP_2wWqTisU&feature=youtu.be
Which is connected to this:
Yarnell Hill Fire by Tom Dolan
http://www.outdoorstorms.com/yarnellhillfire.htm
And further described in this:
Yarnell Revisited
http://www.geolobo.com/?p=483
Good stuff same thing we talked about down a chapter or 2.
For some one who is going to talk about Fire weather EN is totally lost.
She al ready admitted she has never even hiked in a western forest,
but knows all about weather in the mountains and the effects of weather and fire on a smoke column and the fire line.
Oh well some times people are impressed with them self’s and don’t need to have any real back ground.
Thanks Bob!
I’ve just gotten finished rewatching, several times over, WTKTT’s sped up videos from the Air 2 Air videos (which I shouldn’t being spending my time on right now but I wanted to check myself). And I hadn’t watched those for awhile cuz……time.
I don’t know if I’m seeing things. Sometimes it looks like part of the smoke is going one way and the other part of the smoke is going the other way. So it “looks” like it is rotating.
It looks that way more at some times than it does at other times.
Actually, in the first one, 1510, it actually looks like the smoke is moving counter-clockwise. And then it just all stands up and starts pushing the opposite directions.
I’ve always “seen” that/those smoke column/columns as “rotating.” But maybe that’s an optical illusion….
….based on the model in my head based on the FACT that, as the outflow boundary winds gradually started over-powering the prevailing southwesterly winds, the head of the fire “rotated” in direction clock-wise, heading first a bit more ene, then east then ese then sse then south then ssw then possibly wsw, when it hit the bottom of the deployment bow.
And then the whole column bent over and all the smoke engulfed yarnell.
So that’s the model I have in my head. The head of the fire didn’t just “switch.” It “turned.”
And those prevailing southwest winds didn’t just vanish from the face of the earth. Prevailing winds don’t do that.
At 15-20 mph, they were increasingly overpowered by the outflow winds moving in and blowing, from the northeast at “up to 50 mph.”
So that’s what pushed the direction of the fire to move clockwise around that compass.
So maybe knowing THAT is making me “see” it in the smoke column.
I guess that’s where/why Tom Dolan’s stuff really made an impression on me. And reinforced my “model” of a “rotating” column.
I can’t, in my head, imagine that model, based on those facts, without it inferring something of a “rotating” column.
I don’t know.
That’s why I would really really really like to read/see a true professional modeling of this fire and whether it was a rotating column, or, for that matter, a double rotating column, or whether it wasn’t even rotating at all.
It really is very complicated. But lots of these fires are, and that doesn’t mean they can’t be modeled and, relatively speaking, understood better by doing so.
But that’s WAY above my pay grade.
But, then, that’s why I’m not out there publicly selling …………..
(I could use another word for that but I won’t cuz JD wouldn’t like me for doing that but believe me those words DO get used in the profession for doing that sort of thing) …….
…..my “skills” as some kind of trustworthy “professional” interpreter of the fire weather behavior on this fire and the “Lessons To Be Learned” from it.
WTKTT’s YouTube channel is here:
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UChknok8ZdSi8mPJ9nAK2L7A
You have to scroll quite a ways down to get to the collection of sped-up Panebaker Air-To-Air videos.
I wrote:
“And then the whole column bent over and all the smoke engulfed yarnell.”
I’m thinking THAT might be a consequence of the prevailing southwesterlies dying down, as they often do later in the afternoon.
That’s possibly a factor in the fact that, after about midnight, a prevailing wind from the southeastish (from all the way down near Tucson) moved in and started blowing smoke and dust and call kinds of crud around, causing everybody who was sleeping out that night to get woked up and have to drive to the ICP in order to get out of it and get back to sleep.
I have never been able to see into the Colum’s but I would bet the Flames are in a swirl motion under the smoke column. which causes the heat and smoke to rise in a swirl or twisting motion.
Just my thoughts but the on film with the display in green and red seemed to show an almost tornado type effect from the ground up..
Copy.
Which is why I would LOVE IT if someone at the level of Doug Campbell et al would do a SERIOUS (I think Tom Dolan’s thing is REALLY important but possibly inaccurate in many points, but that was in 2013) friggin PROFESSIONAL ANALYSIS of the fire behavior weather on this fire.
It doesn’t change the fact that, in my humble opinion, given the forecast/s and FBAN’s warnings, which were accurate, all the “overhead” on that fire should have paid attention and told their crews to disengage and HUNKER DOWN RIGHT NOW (or ASAP) at approximately something like 2;00 PM, or, if that didn’t seem serious enough,
SERIOUSLY after that 3;30 PM NWS report that was captured by FBAN Byron Kimball (WTF was AZFire paying him to be there for, anyway????) and then sent out by him.
Unfortunately, I’ve written about this so much that I’m fried.
If EN was TRULY SERIOUS about understanding and communicating WTF happened on this fire, (like I have been all along,) this whole thing about how the VAST MAJORITY of the overhead on this fire were not seriously paying attention to the forecasts — (including the possibility that the ACTUAL Supervisor 0f the Granite Mountain Hotshots wasn’t either), that should be the MAJOR FOCUS of her (possibly last-minute) focus, as she heads to deliver a paper to the collection of much more experienced people than she is, who will hear it
PS I have, agonizingly, made a decision to not post any comments for the next 48 hours, because I REALLY need to focus on other things.
Elizabeth says
APRIL 9, 2015 AT 3:50 AM
Marti, you are saying that the COLUMN was rotating because the FIRE was rotating? The FIRE was rotating – that is your contention?
With all due respect, I am pretty sure that that is not how it works….
————————————
Marti Reed says
APRIL 9, 2015 AT 9:14 AM
I already said, in great detail, how and why I might be mistaken. [And, then again, I might not. I don’t know.]
[That’s why] I am perfectly willing for anybody, who has the creds and the experience to know better, to correct me.
That’s, honestly, why I wrote that post.
I have been writing about a “rotating column” for MONTHS.
Nobody has EVER CHALLENGED me on that.
If the model inside my head is wrong, I would LOVE to know about that.
Yeah, I missed a chunk of the conversation that I know is at the bottom of this chapter.
Part of why I decided to go look again.
Here’s a related on of his videos, in which he describes what he’s seeing in his Doppler Radar analysis:
Granite Mountain Hotshots Last Stand At Yarnell Hill
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=drQZSfZmjbE&feature=youtu.be
One thing that keeps invading my thoughts as I sit here watching the “Spot Fires” webinar, is that Tom Dolan, based on his modeling, says that he thinks a 2000 degree temperature in the bowl would have been a result of the collapse of the column (I see, in the Air2Air video a bending over of the column, but not, neccessarily collapse of the column, but then I haven’t ever watched anything that shows a column collapse so I don’t know) and all of the burning stuff (including, as I have read elsewhere that happens, burning smoke and other chemicals) that that column had within itself.
And he made that video in August 2013, before the SAIR came out.
I remember reading that his conclusions were disputed, but I have no idea where or when or by whom.
But what he is saying here makes sense to me. But then, I am no expert on fire weather behavior. And I don’t pretend to be. I consider myself, first and foremost, just a lowly student of wildfire.
One of the things in evaluating fire activity that is common to us and I just never mentioned it.
When you are expecting wind and squirrely winds from weather forecasts
when GM Moved they should have anticipated possible Spot fires in the valley below them where they were headed in that highly volatile fuel type
a spot fire could grow fast and block their route.
When you do a check list it is another consideration what is the fire going to do if it turns South and burns in my direction– increased wind predicted–Spot Fires– large fuel bed–no fire break–What’s the possibility of that happening– is the possibility big enough to make a change in the plan to move to the BSR.
So yes you always consider spot fires in that fuel type. with the weather.
If so what other options do I have????????
If any what ifs stand out stay in the black. there are no other options..
You might sit there for an hour or you might sit there for 5 or more hours.
but your going home to see your family. As a Division Boss I had no problem telling crews to sit it out in the black till the fire made its full run.
Its no shame to be safe and sit it out it happens a lot on a lot of fires.
Bring the BLACK with you its a lot better than a fire shelter.
And, speaking of this:
“I’m VERY interested in what Fire Weather Behavior Experts have to say (and argue about, because that’s what they do) regarding the Yarnell Hill Fire. I find it absolutely fascinating. I find that rotating column REALLY absolutely fascinating.
On April 30 Wildland Fire Lessons Learned Center will host a Webinar called “Vortices and Wildland Fire” from 1:00 pm – 2:;00 PM MDT.
They usually post these webinars to their YouTube channel within about two hours after the webinar ends.
“Scott Goodrick, a research meteorologist with the USDA Forest Service, and Jason Forthofer, a mechanical engineer with the USDA Forest Service, will present a summary of vortices and wildland fire. Vortices are almost always present in the wildland fire environment and can sometimes interact with the fire in unpredictable ways, causing extreme fire behavior and safety concerns. In this presentation, the current state of knowledge of the interaction of wildland fire and vortices is examined and reviewed. A basic introduction to vorticity is given, and the two common vortex forms in wildland fire are analyzed: fire whirls and horizontal roll vortices. Attention is given to mechanisms of formation and growth and how this information can be used by firefighters.”
https://attendee.gotowebinar.com/register/6350584912361558018
Their YouTube channel is here:
WildlandFireLLC
https://www.youtube.com/user/WildlandFireLLC
Elizabeth ask me a couple of days ago about case files on supervisors that were sued for wrongful death liability in burn overs.
I haven’t looked up the files but here are 2 of the Fires.
30 MILE FIRE—
CRAMER FIRE—Salmon/Challis
Exactly.
“Exactly” what, Marti? 🙂
Bob, thanks for sharing this, but I still have found NO civil lawsuits in which a supervisor such as Eric Marsh was held personally liable for something akin to gross negligence. You suggest that the Thirtymile Fire was one such case, but, as best I can tell, on the Thirtymile Fire, Ellreese Daniels was *NOT* pursued successfully in a civil lawsuit. Here’s a link:
http://www.seattletimes.com/seattle-news/dismissal-of-parents-lawsuit-marks-end-of-thirtymile-fire-litigation/
Who was sued personally in a civil lawsuit on the Cramer Fire, Bob?
A crew Boss I cant remember his name and do to personal thing that have come up have not had time to research that.
The Daniels case is to show that you can be sued I at no time have said that any one succeeded but the law suits them selves have successful.
I only said there are cases where supervisors have been sued. over the past 15 years it is becoming more prevalent. That is why the feds changed the fatality fire investigations so they were not causing undue law suits on there employees.
Don’t assign any responsibility which they did in the past and caused severial
Liability Law Suits to the direct supervisor who violated the 10 and 18 as assigned by the investigation.
The sentence Law suits them selves have successful.
SHOULD HAVE BEEN
The law suits them selves have successfully been filed.
Marti posted a link to Kelly Close’s paper about exponentially increasing fire behavior, which I think is well worth reading. (I had referenced it a long time ago, but Marti actually links to it, which is super.) There had been some discussion about steady-state ROS, but Close talks about the difficulty that arises with exponentially-increasing fire behavior (because it is hard to perceive and process, at least initially).
In addition, it is worth cutting and pasting an exchange Marti and I had regarding Kenny Jordan, a former hotshot superintendent who had to deploy his shelter even though a subsequent investigation found that he had followed the wildland firefighting “rules” (e.g. the Ten Standard Orders or whatever version of them existed at the time):
Marti Reed says
APRIL 7, 2015 AT 2:52 PM
Le sigh.
Ken Jordan discusses the Yarnell Hill Fire.
Apparently he disagrees with EN’s assessment.
“Ken Jordan, retired Hotshot Superintendent, talks about how his shelter deployment changed how he approached firefighting and running the crew, including placing emphasis on training and physical agility, changing the culture of after-hours drinking, and “breaking the cool barrier.”
https://vimeo.com/channels/791569/102780014
Reply
Elizabeth says
APRIL 7, 2015 AT 5:28 PM
Le sigh right back atcha. He agrees with me, Marti – I *GOT* the intel from his video. Perhaps you should watch it a bit more carefully, friend (and also watch Bret Butler’s webinar). (In an unrelated vein, Marti, it is good to see up above that you are finally getting on the bandwagon with fire behavior. I believe I quoted Kelly Close’s paper (or at least cited it) a long time ago. The paper you are so excited about finally finding…. says the same thing, in essence. 🙂 )
http://www.wlfalwaysremember.org/images/incidents/documents/2003-07-22-cramer-close-20min-at-h2.pdf
Above is the link to one iteration of Kelly’s paper. (There is another one – if I find it, I will post it.)
You. Have. Completely. Missed.
THE POINT.
Been there, done that.
Marti, in your above response to me in which you indicate that one of us misses the other’s point, are you referring to my comments about Kelly Close’s paper or are you referring to what Kenny Jordan himself says in the video about his fire shelter deployment?
Specifically, at roughly 8:46 into the video, Kenny Jordan (one of the multiple hotshot superintendents over the years who have ended up in tight situations on fires) states that his deployment was investigated by a fire and fire behavior guru who was the “best of the best,” who ultimately concluded that Kenny was trapped by the fire and had to deploy his shelter EVEN THOUGH Kenny had complied with all of the “fire orders” (meaning that Kenny did not break “the rules,” as guys like Fred and Bob Powers like to refer to them, yet Kenny STILL ended up in a tight position in which he had to deploy his fire shelter).
That’s not The Point Ken Jordan is making in that video.
And I’ve been “on the bandwagon” about fire/weather behavior for months and months.
Just not YOUR bandwagon.
Trolling and as always in denial—-
I explained down below to the discussion she had on this with Rocksteady.
She accepts no explanation but hers.
Marti, it doesn’t matter if that is the point that Ken Jordan was intending to make or not. It is the TRUTH, according to Kenny Jordan.
The TRUTH is that it is possible to end up having to deploy your shelter even though you (at least according to an FBAN and fire expert who is the “best of the best”) FOLLOWED all of “the rules.”
That might not have been Kenny Jordan’s overall point, but it was mine, and Kenny Jordan graciously in his video provided the FACTS to prove the point (and the facts have been provided from other fires by other wildland firefighters who prefer to remain anonymous).
And I will repeat——
On severial fires in safety zones or safe areas Fire fighters have deployed Shelters to get away from the heat not the direct Flame.
Case example—–Salmon NF 3 Type 2 crews deployed in a Safety Zone
Which was Identified and 5 Acers in size with no burnable fuel.
It was found they had no reason to deploy but one supervisor ordered them to. This was a timber stand.
Forgot to add this is listed in the Fire Shelter deployment info.
**
** REGARDING THE UPCOMING AMERICAN METEOROLOGICAL SOCIETY
** SYMPOSIUM ON FIRE AND FOREST METEOROLOGY ( MAY 4-7, 2015 ).
**
** YARNELL HILL FIRE WEATHER PRESENTATION WILL BE MADE
** BY ELIZABETH NOWICKI
I shit you not.
And YES… the already published SUMMARY of this presentation that Elizabeth Nowicki will be making in front of actual scientists and weather experts at this American Meteorological Society Symposium is the EXACT same hot, runny bullshit that has been refuted over and over ( by ACTUAL experts ) here in this ongoing discussion
SIDENOTE to Marti: I sort of hated to post this right above that WONDERFUL post of yours just below regarding your amazing father… and I know THIS posting might actually make you throw up in your mouth a little… but I felt it was important to get this ‘out in the open’.
Also… Elizabeth Nowicki’s presentation about the Weather at the Yarnell Hill Fire will come AFTER another presentation by…
( drum roll, please )
Fred J. Schoeffler, Sheff LLC, Pine, AZ
Again, I shit you not.. No one could even ‘make this stuff up’.
Here are the gory details…
On Monday, May 4, 2015 through Thursday, May 7, 2015, The American Meteorological Society (AMS) is having its 11th Symposium on Fire and Forest Meteorology.
This one is in Minneapolis, Minnesota.
I will be at the Great Lakes Ballroom (Crowne Plaza Minneapolis Northstar).
Some of the TOP Fire Behavior and Fire Weather Analysts in the U.S. Forestry Service, the USDA, and other Fire Agencies around the world ( Australia, etc. ) will be ‘presenting’ at this Symposium.
The schedule of ‘presentations’ for this conference is as follows…
————————————————————————————–
Monday, May 4, 2015
05:00 PM – 07:00 PM – Registration Opens
Tuesday, May 5, 2015
07:30 AM – 05:30 PM – Registration Continues Throughout the Conference
09:00 AM – 09:15 AM – Opening
09:15 AM – 10:15 AM – Meteorological Information in Fire Management Planning
10:15 AM – 10:45 AM – Coffee Break
10:45 AM – 12:00 PM – Fire Weather Index Development
12:00 PM – 01:30 PM – Lunch Break
01:30 PM – 03:00 PM – Smoke I ( 1 of 2 )
03:30 PM – 04:45 PM – Field Studies of Fire-Atmosphere Interactions
05:00 PM – 07:00 PM – Formal Poster Viewing and Reception / Poster Session
Wednesday, May 6, 2015
09:00 AM – 10:00 AM – Use of Weather and Climate Information I (1 of 3)
10:00 AM – 10:30 AM – Coffee Break
10:30 AM – 12:15 PM – Model Studies I (1 of 2)
12:15 PM – 01:45 PM – Conference Luncheon
01:45 PM – 02:45 PM – Smoke II ( 2 of 2 )
02:45 PM – 03:15 PM – Coffee Break
03:15 PM – 05:00 PM – Operational Forecasting (short to long-term) of Fire Weather
Thursday, May 7, 2015
09:00 AM – 10:30 AM – Model Studies II (2 of 2)
10:30 AM – 11:00 AM – Coffee Break
11:00 AM – 12:00 PM – Use of Weather and Climate Information II (2 of 3)
12:00 PM – 01:30 PM – Lunch Break
01:30 PM – 02:30 PM – Use of Weather and Climate Information III (3 of 3)
02:30 PM – 03:00 PM – Closing
03:00 PM – 03:05 PM – Conference Adjourns
——————————————————————————————
During the FIRST ( of THREE ) “Use of Weather and Climate Information” presentation sessions on Wednesday, May 6, 2015 from 09:00 AM – 10:00 AM, FOUR different ‘Papers’ will be presented by their respective authors.
The FIRST paper to be presented ( in the 9:00 AM timeslot ) is as follows…
————————————————————————————–
Wednesday, 6 May 2015: 9:00 AM-10:00 AM
9:00 AM – Paper 5.1
Fire Weather and Atmospheric Condition Commonalities Affecting June 2002
to 2013 Colorado (USA) Wildfires
By Fred J. Schoeffler, Sheff LLC, Pine, AZ
————————————————————————————-
During the SECOND ( of THREE ) “Use of Weather and Climate Information” presentation sessions on Thursday, May 7, 2015 from 11:00 AM – 12:00 PM, another FOUR ‘Papers’ will be presented by their respective authors.
The LAST paper to be presented ( in the 11:45 AM timeslot ) is as follows…
————————————————————————————-
11:45 AM – Paper 10.4
Weather Forecasts and The Yarnell Hill Fire: Modest Reflections on Knowing
What We Know and Acknowledging What We Don’t
By Elizabeth Nowicki, Albany Law School, Albany, NY
————————————————————————————-
A complete SUMMARY of this ‘Paper’ that is going to be presented to this American Meteorological Society (AMS) Symposium by Elizabeth Nowicki can be found at the following online page sub-page of this AMS Conference Website…
https://ams.confex.com/ams/11FIRE/webprogram/Paper273187.html
In case it ‘disappears’ suddenly… here is that entire SUMMARY of
the Paper Elizabeth Nowicki pans to present to the AMS…
————————————————————————————-
American Meteoroligical Society – 2015 Symposium – Paper 10.4
Title: Weather Forecasts and The Yarnell Hill Fire: Modest Reflections
on Knowing What We Know and Acknowledging What We Don’t
Presentation Date/Time: Thursday, 7 May 2015: 11:45 AM
Great Lakes Ballroom (Crowne Plaza Minneapolis Northstar)
Presentation By: Elizabeth Nowicki, Albany Law School, Albany, NY
Working on wildland fires is inherently risky. Fire is dangerous, it can kill, and it is as unpredictable as a captive orca, particularly as the size of the fire increases and the relevant terrain becomes more uneven. Therefore, it is important to learn as much as possible from each and every mass tragedy involving wildland fire, so that future generations of wildland firefighters can better protect themselves.
Part of learning from tragedies on wildland fires involves figuring out – in as much detail and with as much precision as possible – what went wrong or occurred leading up to the tragedy, so that similar factual scenarios in the future can be made safer. If a wildland fire tragedy is blamed on a predicted weather event – such a forecasted wind shift – when that predicted weather event was not actually the direct causal factor of the tragedy (or it wasn’t the causal factor in the way the prevailing narratives suggest), the fireline is actually made even more dangerous, because wildland firefighters will inappropriately take comfort in remedial measures such as more frequent forecasts or an IMET on every fire over a certain size. Phrased differently, inaccurately blaming a wildland fire tragedy on a predicted weather event is dangerous, because it diverts focus – and safety measures – from wherever they should be focused instead.
In the wake of both the South Canyon Fire and the Yarnell Hill Fire, seasoned wildland fire investigators and expert wildland firefighters pointed their fingers at a forecast weather event (an “outflow boundary,” arriving from the N/NE, with winds up to 40 mph, in the case of the Yarnell Hill Fire) as the direct causal factor in the fire blow-up, direction change, and exponential increase in rate of spread that then entrapped and killed dozens of wildland firefighters. The “eruptive fire behavior” (or blow-up) in the South Canyon Fire or the Yarnell Hill Fire that ultimately entrapped and killed dozens of wildland firefighters was assumed to be the product of high-speed winds that were pushing the fire on top of the wildland firefighters faster than they could outrun it.
But roughly ten years after the 1994 South Canyon Fire tragedy, a fire scientist named Dr. D.X. Viegas started publishing essays in which he suggested that the “predicted wind event” narrative does not accurately explain what happened with the South Canyon Fire in the minutes leading up to the entrapment and deaths. Viegas observes that there was no wind event of the sort that National Weather Service meteorologist Chris Cuoco predicted that pushed the fire directly on top of the deceased wildland firefighters. If the weather event had any sort of impact, it was far more subtle, more nuanced, less direct, far less obvious (particularly to those on the ground, working on the fire line), and harder to figure out. In Viegas’s view, the South Canyon Fire blow-up (and the resulting tragic deaths) was the product of uber-extreme fire behavior creating its own influencing forces, particularly when coupled with sloping terrain. Convection, indrafting, and a positive feedback cycle appear to be what Viegas would finger as the causal factor of the South Canyon Fire, moreso than meteorologist Chris Cuoco’s forecasted weather event.
The same case can be made regarding the Yarnell Hill Fire. In the wake of the tragic fire on June 30, 2013, multiple expert investigation teams and multiple meteorology academics and professionals indicated that 19 Granite Mountain Hotshots died at the Yarnell Hill Fire because of a predicted weather event (winds from an outflow boundary, arriving from the N/NE at speeds of up to 40 mph) that pushed the fire on top of the hotshots.
But the time-stamped photos and videos do not support this narrative. There is no evidence in the local communities of outflow boundary winds from the N/NE of up to 40 mph. Lawn furniture was not strewn, camera tripods were not knocked over by 40 mph winds, people did not have trouble walking into the alleged wind. Moreover, the fire eruption that ultimately entrapped and killed the Granite Mountain Hotshots appears to have come from the west/NW. If there were direct outflow boundary winds of up to 40 mph from the N/NE, the fire would have been pushed to the South/SW and away from the Granite Mountain Hotshots. But that is not what happened.
In this presentation, a more accurate timeline and relevant photos will be presented, to assess how they line up with the presumed wind event, and relevant operational take-aways (such as the need to acknowledge that even the best, most accurate weather forecast might not be able to be linearly used in predicting in detail short term wildland fire behavior) will be discussed.
Elizabeth Nowicki, Albany Law School, Albany, NY
————————————————————————————-
I wonder… are there any FINES or PENALTIES for getting up in front of the ACTUAL American Meteorological Society (AMS) and filling them with the kind of BULLSHIT that Elizabeth Nowicki is scheduled to do this coming May 7, 2015?
If not… then there ought to be.
At the very least… I just hope someone is actually THERE to stand up and tell her how delirious and full of shit she is.
Well I am not sure what to say right now I can not believe the both of them could get in the same room together with out killing each other. Although Fred’s 6’5/ 280.
More Later
Thanks so much for making me laugh, Bob!!!
I really needed that.
OK right now I’m gonna just say
Copy.
I’m way too beyond bedtime and too braindead to say anything else.
I’m trying to eat my pizza without regurgitating.
Elizabeth Nowicki is, as we all have discovered via the hard way ……
…. probably the LEAST qualified person in the Universe to say anything even REMOTELY accurate about the weather and the fire on the Yarnell HIll Fire on June 30, 2013.
She has made it perfectly clear that she knows absolutely NOTHING about WEATHER, much less SOUTHWEST weather, much less southwest THUNDERSTORM weather, much less how southwest thunderstorm weather interacts with WILDFIRE behavior, much less how the southwest June 30, 2013 thunderstorm weather interacted with the Yarnell Hill Fire.
I’m glad the pizza I’m eating right not is really good.
Otherwise WTF??????????
But hey, there’s still that thingy called peer review.
This is, for somebody like me, all things considered, actually worse than all the crapola related to the ICMA thingy and the Brendan thingy.
I hope she makes a complete a$$ out of herself. Which could, all things considered, still be possible.
I guess I said more than Copy.
And even though I hate to read this,
I have to say,
Thank You WTKTT
for posting this.
I know that, via JD’s recent reminder, I shouldn’t say this but ……..
Even though this could get me banned from here, via his recent reminder…..
All I can see in this is
A Columbia Law Professor (WTF????) free-lancing as a friggin’
Gold-Digger.
Sue me.
Disgusting.
I just “woke up.” (Still drinking coffee).
(Listening to KUNM. Re-iterating our Red Flag Warning. Plus wind and dust)
I had a dream last night about my dad. The symbolism in it was unrelated to this conversation.
When I woke up from it the words “Just let her hang her own self” went rapidly through my head.
I think I agree with that advice.
Is this for real?
I’m afraid so.
Did you actually READ what this nimrod is going to actually SAY to a roomful of some of the best FBANS and WFF Meterologists in the world?
It’s truly astounding.
I guess everyone deserves their own “15 minutes of shame”?
The MYSTERY would be how this person even got accepted to even MAKE such a presentation at an event like this in the first place.
This isn’t just some TROLL hanging around on a web forum and annoying everyone. This is actually ‘another level’ of ‘crazy’.
There is a serious ‘credibility’ issue here for the American Meteorological Society (AMS).
If they let this kind of nonsense actually happen… it calls the entire organization’s credibility into question.
The lecture circuit seems to like new and some times controversial lectures
but this is way out on a limb——
I know Fred dose Several different Lectures on different parts of Wild land Fire and has in the past. Kind of a extra retirement income. It dose not surprise me he is there when he applied and was accepted I will lay money hid not know Elizabeth was going to be one of the speakers.
>> WTKTT said…
>>
>> The MYSTERY would be how this person even got accepted
>> to even MAKE such a presentation at an event like this in
>> the first place.
Scratch that. It’s no MYSTERY at all.
They will basically let anyone get up and bullshit them if you simply pay them the correct REGISTRATION fees.
See this link about REGISTERING to be a SPEAKER…
http://www.ametsoc.org/Meet/fainst/201511fireforest.html
I no longer have any kind of high opinion about the “American Meteorological Society”. This is just a ‘money making’ scheme for THEM.
Peer Review.
It’s the scientific method.
That’s why, when I woke up, the words “Just let her hang her own self went through my mind.”
Reply to rocksteady post on April 7, 2015 at 11:46 pm
>> rocksteady said…
>>
>> Is this for real?
Here is the link to the HOME page itself for this upcoming
American Meteorological Society ( AMS )
11th Symposium on Fire and Forest Meteorology.
May 4 through May 7, 2015
In Minneapolis, Minnesota.
at the Great Lakes Ballroom (Crowne Plaza Minneapolis Northstar).
https://ams.confex.com/ams/11FIRE/webprogram/start.html
Actually… here’s an even BETTER link to the ‘details’ for this Symposium..
http://www.ametsoc.org/Meet/fainst/201511fireforest.html
This ‘appears’ to be just some deal where “they will let anyone in”… as long as you pay THEM the right registration fees to be an actual “speaker”.
From the page above…
——————————————————————
11th Symposium on Fire and Forest Meteorology
5–7 May 2015, Minneapolis, MN
ORGANIZERS
The 11th Symposium on Fire and Forest Meteorology, sponsored by the American Meteorological Society and organized by the AMS Committee on Agricultural and Forest Meteorology, will be held 5-7 May 2015 at the Crowne Plaza Northstar Hotel, Minneapolis, MN.
REGISTRATION (Please note all SPEAKERS must register)
All attendees must register to attend the conference. Registration may be completed online, via fax-in form, or onsite. Everyone presenting (both oral and poster) and/or attending must register and wear a badge. Be sure to register by 03/24/15 in order to receive the lower registration rate. Registrations received at AMS from 03/25/15 and through the conference dates will be processed at the higher rate (see rates below). After 04/07/15 please register at the meeting or online. Payment may be made with check, purchase order (hard copy required) or credit card (MasterCard/VISA/American Express). FAXED registration forms must be accompanied by payment (PO or credit card # only).
RATES for…
Non-Member SPEAKERS, AMS Associate Member, or Exhibitor Attendee
FULL-WEEK PACKAGE
Admittance to the conference, all conference materials, all coffee breaks, formal poster viewing and Wednesday’s Luncheon.
Early Registration: $520
Registration: $560
Late Registration: $580
ONE-DAY PACKAGE
Admittance to all conferences and coffee breaks for one day (except the luncheon ticket).
Early Registration: $270
Registration: $310
Late Registration: $330
——————————————————————–
My dad presented to the AMS probably almost annually. It was a great way for him and my mom to travel around, meet and greet buddies and friends, eat well, and ARGUE about weather.
My dad LOVED to argue. About ANYTHING, but PARTICULARLY about WEATHER. That’s what meteorologists do.
Sometimes he presented stuff that was WAY WAY WAY OUT THERE.
Just to start the argument.
Thing was, he had the CREDS to get away with that. And the CONNECTIONS. And the RESPECT.
If EN says what she says she’s going to say in her abstract…….
………….
all things considered,
given to whom she’s probably going to say that…………
She’s gonna get laughed all the way out of the room.
This:
“In this presentation, a more accurate timeline and relevant photos will be presented, to assess how they line up with the presumed wind event, and relevant operational take-aways (such as the need to acknowledge that even the best, most accurate weather forecast might not be able to be linearly used in predicting in detail short term wildland fire behavior) will be discussed.”
I have NEVER assumed that that 3:30 PM forecast should have been “linearly” used in predicting anything “in detail.”
As a matter of fact, THAT has been one of my major points all along. And it’s one of the points that, essentially EN has, exasperatingly, not been able to get through HER head.
And her saying that she knows the “wind event” that was forecasted didn’t happen because she doesn’t seen lawn chairs blowing around in pictures………..
I’ve never talked about “a wind event.” I’m pretty sure most of us have tried to counter that idea over and over again, but “our counselor” has been the one ALL ALONG who’s kept PUSHING it.
I’ve talked about a the thunderstorm with an outflow boundary with winds up to 50 mph, which was actually what was forecasted. Which pushed the fire into a dynamic clockwise (as they do in the northern hemisphere) rotating column.
That is about the CAUSE of the changing prevailing wind (which, by the time 4:30 rolled around, was NOT coming out of the NW, as EN is still scratching her fingernails on the chalkboard while repeatedly trying to convince the universe.
The micro-effects of that thunderstorm outflow boundary are, as I have REPEATEDLY said, basically unpredictable, depending on a multitude of parameters, one of the biggest and most important being TOPOGRAPHY.
None of this is anything NEW to any of us, as has been demonstrated ad nauseum here, who have actually lived and worked in the southwest.
In some ways it’s totally rocket science and, in some other ways it’s totally not rocket science.
THE POINT BEING that when you have a fire like that, in explosive fuels, with that kind of weather heading toward it,
You don’t have to be a rocket scientist to listen to the friggin meteorologist via the friggin FBAN (both of whom ARE probably more of a “rocket scientist” than you are), and QUICKLY find yourself the nicest, clearest, safest place you possibly can (which CAN be VERY DIFFICULT to do IN THE LAST MINUTE) and
HUNKER DOWN.
Somebody DIDN’T DO THAT on the Yarnell Hill Fire. And they’re DEAD.
Fire Weather Behavior 101.
I’m VERY interested in what Fire Weather Behavior Experts have to say (and argue about, because that’s what they do) regarding the Yarnell Hill Fire. I find it absolutely fascinating. I find that rotating column REALLY absolutely fascinating.
That being said, EN is NOT a Fire Weather Behavior Expert.
Not even close.
I have an interesting correction for you.
Fred Schoeffler’s presentation has been MOVED to Session 5, Wednesday, 6 May 2015.
So there’s that. May have absolutely NOTHING to do with ANYTHING.
Most of those presentations are so far above my payscale that I can’t even understand their abstracts.
Just EN’s complete misunderstanding of the terminology she is throwing around is gonna get her laughed out of the room, ignored, or some combination of both, imho. Unless she cleans it all up a whole bunch between now and then.
But I could be wrong!!!!!!!!
I’m gonna repost something I posted way down below, in a little conversation Gary Olson and I were having about life in Santa Fe, Flagstaff, Farmington, Albuquerque, that reminiscing kind of stuff.
I had never written this story, although I had thought about doing it but I didn’t because, as you will understand when you read it, I reckoned there might be too much tedious difficulty that might attach itself to this story. But I think, after the recent day’s history, we may, hopefully. be a little bit inoculated against that danger, at least for the moment.
And because I think it narrates this kind of stuff about weather, thunderstorm, etc. So here goes:
“Oh, and another (ahem related) story I haven’t written about here, bcuz well you know (at least by now)……
I have a photo of my dad sitting on a log in horsethief meadow (where the jarosa fire burned) in the Pecos in about 1966, staring at a thunderstorm anvil over a pass we were planning to cross on horseback.
We didn’t cross the pass. Instead we went back around it the way we had come.
The next day we DID cross the pass, and there were trees next to the trail that had been exploded by lightning.
He told me that was the exact moment when, after 35 years of forecasting New Mexico weather, he couldn’t forecast a southwestern thunderstorm because they were WAY TOO COMPLICATED. He maintained that stance til the day he died.
And he flew typhoons in the Pacific in order to figure out the math to use to fly airplanes through hurricanes.
According to him, what you do with a southwestern thunderstorm is stay away from it and HUNKER DOWN!
Now you know why I haven’t told that story, except down here in a reply to you in a buried thread.”
It took us A LOT longer to go around that pass instead of over it.
But at least we came home alive, along with our horses.
I made a typo.
Instead of writing:
“He told me that was the exact moment when, after 35 years of forecasting New Mexico weather, he couldn’t forecast a southwestern thunderstorm because they were WAY TOO COMPLICATED. He maintained that stance til the day he died.”
I meant to write:
“He told me that was the exact moment when, after 35 years of forecasting New Mexico weather, he DECIDED he couldn’t REALLY forecast a southwestern thunderstorm because they were WAY TOO COMPLICATED. He maintained that stance til the day he died.”
I think by now you get the point. Which is the point.
And THE POINT is intimately connected to the
HUNKER DOWN.
Oh, and I forgot to say that he was also the chief meteorologist for entire atmospheric nuclear weapons testing program so there’s that…..
Which says something about his credibility in the arena of complex weather forecasting in relationship to high-risk operations.
And, in case there are those who would take this too literally, and ask, well this is not about wlldfire and that thunderstorm wasn’t right over the Yarnell Hill Fire, much less Granite Mountain IHC, and so this is not really relevant when “we” say Granite Mountain was situationally aware and just (after observing that fire for something like a half an hour, thus figuring out where that fire was going to go in the time they somehow had managed to determine it was going to take them to get to the Boulder Springs Ranch) was completely rational in heading toward that ranch, and so that obviously proves my point that there was NO WAY Granite Mountain (especially the leadership) could have perceived ahead of time that fire was gonna beat them to the ranch (OMG think about the FAMBILIES)………
………..I am sitting here, tapping my foot
If my dad, an EXTREMELY gifted and experienced and major math wizard meteorologist says southwestern thunderstorms are way too complicated to forecast in any kind of specific manner in order to determine if it might be safe to ride horses over a ridge when a thunderstorm is there and so the safest thing is to not get entangled in it…….
How can that possibly mean that adding a by-now-out-of-control wildfire to that mix, thus adding a whole nuther exponentially complicated layer to that mix. thus, essentially shouting out to everybody who is a stakeholder in its consequences…..
I”M A WHOLE LOT BIGGER THAN YOU SO HUNKER DOWN AND ACTUALLY THINK SAFETY FIRST!!!
……doesn’t mean taking that kind of thing seriously?
Namaste
I’m currently thinking I should try to turn all of that into a poem.
Or something.
Whatever it might take to make all of that simpler.
In order to make sure people get it.
So now KUNM plays:
“it looks like heartache……
……..and the winner loses all.”
Maybe that’s my poem.
Of course none of this factors into the possibility that, at the moment that Granite Mountain Hotshots™ acting supervisor Jesse Steed led his crew (under currently alleged pressure from Eric Marsh — and we still are uncertain what pressure Eric Marsh might have been under at that specific time) from that saddle into that bowl of explosives and across that fire’s head, and, under what now appears to us to have been some conflicted ideas/feelings on his part…………….
…..given WTKTT’s YouTube video, he and all of the rest of the crew might have been experiencing some possibly MAJOR effects of, not only fatigue, but also smoke inhalation???
To me, after all of my ruminations regarding all of this, I find that the really important Lessons Learned lesson is that, when you are on a fire that is increasingly under the influence of a southwestern thunderstorm, what you really really need to do is what Todd Abel told DivASup Eric Marsh (which I am assuming also included the crew under his command)
to just friggin “HUNKER DOWN.”
Even if it takes you (as it took my dad and me) a few hours more to get back to where ever you would REALLY LIKE to get.
We came home alive, along with our extremely freak-outable horses.
Granite Mountain IHC didn’t.
I really with I could put this into something more simple and easy to comprehend.
Typo. It’s getting late.
“I really with I could put this into something more simple and easy to comprehend.”
Should read:
“I really wish I could put this into something more simple and easy to comprehend.”
I really believe that when that 2:00 forecast came in, and then, additionally to that, the 3:30 forecast, the Incident Commander of that fire should have ordered ALL of the crews on that fire to PULL OFF of that fire.
There was absolutely no way, given the 10 and 18, to continue to “fight fire aggressively providing for safety first.”
If that Incident Commander had, instead of being overwhelmed by the fact that he didn’t have enough of his team onsite and was still being outflanked by the fire and was trying to catch up by whatever means without a radio (he just didn’t do that). been actually paying attention to the fire that he was contracted to actually fight……
……actually taken those forecasts seriously and ordered a stand-down of the crews that were on that fire at that time…..
Granite Mountain IHC would have been ordered to sit themselves down in the black that they were already in ……..
…….and the crews that were up in the area above the Youth Camp would have toggled off their chainsaws ASAP and REALLY headed toward safety instead of continuing what they were doing, thus getting themselves into a situation that nearly claimed their lives.
And who knows what else.
Regarding the conversation downstream regarding the fire behavior, the winds, the crew, their situational awareness, and their decision-making (a conversation we have had repeatedly and around which I have already wasted enough time to not even go there again………
However, skimming through it reminded me of something I re-encounter periodically and every time I do I think, hmmmmmmm I should post it because it’s so interesting and relevant and something we haven’t actually discussed all that much.
So here’s what I posted downstream in the weeds and roots somwhere:
20 Minutes at H-2 – Linear Decision Making in an Exponential Fire Environment
K.R. Close Poudre Fire Authority, Fort Collins, CO
Abstract
“In volatile burning conditions, the fire environment changes rapidly, and the fire itself often seems to spread at an ever-increasing pace and intensity. In fact, under extreme burning conditions in steep terrain, there is strong evidence the rate of spread is not linear and steady-state, but actually becomes exponential during the fire’s final run – intensifying far more rapidly than people’s perceptions and cognitions can readily reconcile. This appears to have been a significant factor on Cramer and other recent fatality fires.
Humans on the fireline tend to be linear thinkers, not readily adapted to assess processes that are accelerating exponentially – particularly in a volatile, rapidly-changing fire environment. Something doesn’t seem right… your “gut feeling” tells you this, but you just can’t quite put your finger on many specifics. As conditions deteriorate and fire spread accelerates, perceptions appear to also deteriorate. Perceptions, cognitions, emotional reactions, and judgments that would be entirely appropriate under normal circumstances fall short. Peripheral facts and evidence, suggest an intricate interaction of firefighters’cognitions and resulting actions/reactions, and the rapidlychanging fire environment is a key factor in the tragic outcome on the Cramer Fire.” …
http://www.wlfalwaysremember.org/images/incidents/documents/2003-07-22-cramer-close-20min-at-h2.pdf
The combined words were not combined in my original post, so I guess that happened when I copied/pasted it up to here.
Sorry bout that!
Just the ABC15 Helicopter footage alone verifies everything being quoted above.
There MAY have been an ‘identifiable fireline’ ( keyword = LINE ) circa 3:50 to 3:55 PM, but as each minute passed, more spotting kept taking place, and more explosive fuel was introduced… it became a ‘fire storm’ and not a ‘fire line’.
You could ALREADY see it beginning to ‘spot ahead’ there on that SOUTH-moving western edge of the ‘fireline’ in Christopher MacKenzie’s photos and videos.
Anyone who calls themselves a professional Wildland Firefighter ( and is carrying the equivalent ‘certification’ as such ) should have been able to envision what was GOING to happen ‘out there’…. and, indeed, was ALREADY starting to happen.
The big head-scratcher in the scenario we now have to consider ( folllowing the AZCENTRAL information ) would be WHY Eric Marsh himself could not also ‘see’ what was happening.
If the information being reported is true… then Eric Marsh really must have ‘taken off’ heading south ( by himself ) just after receiving that radio call from Blue Ridge Superintendent Brian Frisby informing Marsh that he was now NOT heading up for that requested ‘face-to-face’ with Marsh and was, instead, going to save Brendan McDonough’s life and get him the hell out of where he found him just walking along the two-track.
Whatever reason Marsh even had for REQUESTING that face-to-face and whatever additional ‘plans’ Marsh had for remaining up on that ridge must have instantly evaporated when he got that radio call from Frisby.
So Marsh MUST have almost IMMEDIATELY taken off on his own ‘scouting mission’ to the south… or there simply isn’t time for what is now being reported to all be true.
That begs the question… WHERE was Marsh, really, when he had those final critical ‘conversations/discussions/arguments’ with Captain Jesse Steed?
If he was anywhere EAST of the mouth of that box canyon…. he should have had ‘eyes on the fire’ and been able to judge as well ( if not BETTER ) than Steed what the fire was doing at THAT time ( ??? ) and how ‘risky’ the move would actually be.
THAT is really the NEW ‘conundrum’.
WHERE was Marsh, WHEN, and WHY would he even be suggesting for one second that they had the TIME to make that risky move?
It’s important to remember that Operations Planning Chief Paul Musser states that he asked either Steed or Marsh whether they could spare resources in Yarnell at approximately 4 p.m.
Mandatory evacuations were in place and it was clear that more resources were needed to get elderly people out of harms way.
http://www.investigativemedia.com/granite-mountain-hotshots-were-asked-if-they-could-protect-yarnell/
Musser claims he doesn’t know who he was talking to.
But for a moment consider this:
According to the ADOSH report, Marsh or Steed told Musser that they were committed to the black and to ask Blue Ridge if they could provide assistance.
https://www.dropbox.com/home/ADOSH%20Investigation/ADOSH%20Web%20Documents?preview=ASFD+Worksheets.pdf
Page 15
But it is known that by 4:01 p.m., Marsh was no longer with the crew and apparently couldn’t see the fire because the MacKenzie videos show Steed talking to him on the radio and providing him a description of the fire’s location.
Marsh, however, MAY have radioed Steed immediately after Musser’s request to discuss whether the crew should move. Hence the 4:01 p.m. MacKenzie video showing the “comfort level” discussion.
It’s also plausible that Marsh began his descent to BSR from his location that already was separate from GM after Musser made his request for more help.
Under this scenario, Marsh could have been scouting a descent route and timing how long it would take the crew to get to BSR.
Once at BSR, the crew would have been in a better position to assist evacuations or conduct mop-up operations after the fire swept through.
The penultimate argument between Marsh and Steed described by Palladini based on Willis’ account (from McDonough) may have happened closer to 4:20 p.m. when the crew reached the saddle “descent point” off the two-track.
The crew could have continued to the south along the two-track and taken the long route back to Yarnell, while keeping on eye on the fire.
Of course this would have eliminated the possibility of re-engagement, which is what Willis says they crew would have tried to do.
Hence the reported argument between Steed and Marsh that led to Marsh issuing the fateful order to take the short cut through the box canyon.
As the crew was coming down, Marsh was already moving back to meet the crew.
The fire had not yet entered the mouth of the canyon between BSR and the deployment site. The ridge to the north would have blocked Marsh’s direct view of the fire approaching from the north.
But when the fire turned the corner and swept over the ridge to the north, it was too late. The fire covered the last 100 yards in 19 seconds.
Marsh was with the crew within 90 seconds of its first mayday call.
Thoughts?
Sounds Very Plausible to me although it is some guessing with out evidence
its as good as we have based on what we know.
They were headed to a Safety zone then from there what????
Even if they would have got there they would have been burned over and had a wait to get out after the fire laid down.
If the fire had not moved south they would have still had to find a way out with it burning Glen Isla. That blocked the road in to BSR.
There may have been a plan but that’s pretty shaky. Or no body really thought the fire was going to do what it did which seems to be the reality here.
I am going to have to think on this awhile.
Reply to John Dougherty (JD) post April 7, 2015 at 7:04 pm
>> JD said…
>>
>> It’s important to remember that Operations Planning Chief
>> Paul Musser states that he asked either Steed or Marsh
>> whether they could spare resources in Yarnell at
>> approximately 4 p.m.
Yes… but as far as has been able to be determined given the existing PUBLIC evidence… I believe the TIME for that radio call was 3:42 PM.
Musser said this was the ONLY time he ‘called out’ to “Division Alpha” that day… and that radio callout was clearly captured in one of the Panebaker videos at 3:42 PM.
There is no RESPONSE from DIVSA Marsh for the remaining 60 seconds or so of that Panebaker video… but it’s also been determined that was probably because that is EXACTLY when Marsh was hearing ( and participating in ) the radio conversations regarding Brian Frisby’s evacuation of Brendan McDonough, and responding to Frisby’s question about whether Blue Ridge should go ahead and ‘move’ all the GM vehicles.
DIVSA Marsh must have ‘answered’ OPS2 Musser’s radio callout to him right after he finished talking to Frisby… which would put Marsh’s response to Musser in the 3:43 to 3:44 PM timeframe.
SIDENOTE: Musser never said he ‘asked for resources’. Musser only testified he asked (quote) “Are you still committed to the ridge?”. Subtle difference, perhaps, but that is exactly what Musser testified to.
So even though OPS2 Paul Musser is reporting that the ANSWER to his question “Are you still committed to the ridge?” was “Yes, we are still committed to the ridge”… the recent AZCENTRAL information would still indicate that almost in the same breath that Marsh was telling Musser they were “Still committed to the ridge”… he must have been ‘taking off’ to the south to scout the route to the BSR.
It looks like Marsh’s decision to ‘take off’ right away was influenced by at least BOTH of the following things happening at almost the same exact moment ( 3:42 to 3:44 PM )…
1) Frisby called and cancelled the scheduled face-to-face and was now going to save Brendan’s life instead.
2) OPS2 Paul Musser called asking “Are you still committed to the ridge?”
The EXACT timing ( down to the second ) is still not known here, and is also still important to know.
It is still POSSIBLE that DIVSA Marsh responded to OPS2 Paul Musser FIRST in that tight timeframe… and Marsh really did still think Frisby was headed up to the ridge and that there might be still some chance of talking about a ‘plan’… and only SECONDS after telling Musser “Yes, we are still committed to the ridge” did he then get that call from Frisby saying “I’m not coming up there”.
So since SECONDS matter… then in those SECONDS before Marsh learned Frisby wasn’t coming up he might have been being actually truthful with OPS2 Paul Musser. He WAS standing there waiting for Frisby to arrive and he really did think there might be ‘another plan’ they could figure out.
The moment Frisby called and said he was going to save Brendan’s life instead… Musser’s radio request might have still been ‘ringing’ in Marsh’s ears and the then decided THAT is what he needed to do.
Try to get to town and help poor OPS2 Musser.
Big question there, of course, would be why would Marsh have not called OPS2 Musser right back and said “Plans have changed. We are NOT committed to the ridge anymore. We are coming down.”
He (Marsh) didn’t do that.
He also violated the clearly stated rule in the “Division Supervisor” taskbook that says you MUST notify your OPS level Supervisor when resources are being MOVED… especially if that move entails LEAVING their assigned ‘Division’.
Marsh just ‘took off’ heading south to ‘scout’ the route to the BSR without notifying ANYONE in fire command that is what he was now doing… and that he INTENDED to remove the GMHS resource OUT of their assigned ‘Division’.
>> JD also wrote…
>>
>> Mandatory evacuations were in place and it was clear that
>> more resources were needed to get elderly people out of harms way.
Granite Mountain knew evacuations had started. Even the Crew knew it and that message appeared in some text messages from the men at the ‘rest spot’ around that time. So yes… they heard this activity over the radios and were aware it was happening.
HOWEVER… it is NOT KNOWN if they knew, specifically, that ‘more resources were needed to get elderly people out of harm’s way’?
Not only is that NOT the job of a Hotshot Crew, and without their vehicles they really wouldn’t even have been any help but just 19 more bodies that would have to then ‘get out of harms way’ themselves… OPS2 Paul Musser did NOT testify to saying anything of the kind to DIVSA Marsh.
All OPS2 Musser has testified to asking/telling Marsh is one simple question…
“Are you still committed to the ridge”.
Musser says the answer was “Yes, we are. Try Blue Ridge”.
END of conversation ( according to Musser ).
>> JD also said…
>>
>> Musser claims he doesn’t know who he was talking to.
He later testified to ADOSH that he was SURE he made his radio call to “Division Alpha” and that he would have never gone outside the ‘chain of command’ and called “Granite Mountain” directly. That is actually verified by the radio capture in the Panebaker video at 3:42 PM. Musser’s actual ‘callout” was…
“Division Alpha, OPS Musser, on TAC 1”
GM Captain Jesse Steed would NOT have answered that callout, so we really MUST assume that Musser actually spoke to DIVSA Eric Marsh, not Jesse Steed.
>> JD also said…
>>
>> But for a moment consider this:
>>
>> According to the ADOSH report, Marsh or Steed told Musser
>> that they were committed to the black and to ask Blue Ridge
>> if they could provide assistance.
>>
>> But it is known that by 4:01 p.m., Marsh was no longer with
>> the crew and apparently couldn’t see the fire because the
>> MacKenzie videos show Steed talking to him on the radio
>> and providing him a description of the fire’s location.
Yes… but just a quick review of the TIMES here.
Musser’s radio callout to Marsh came in the 3:42 PM timeframe, at about the exact same time Brendan McDonough was ‘evacuating’ and all of THOSE radio conversations were also taking place.
The MacKenzie VIDEOS ( showing Steed describing the fire location to Marsh over the radio ) were in the 3:55 PM timeframe… not 4:01.
If Marsh had ‘taken off’ going SOUTH to scout the route to the BSR immediately after hearing Frisby wasn’t going to make the face-to-face, then at 3:55 PM ( When we hear ‘comfort level’ discussions AND we hear Steed reporting fireline location to Marsh )… Marsh could ONLY have gotten about as far as what would later become known as the ‘Descent Point’ at the saddle at the top of the WEST end of the canyon.
There would only have been 10 to 12 minutes between him LEAVING the ‘rest spot’ area and when we hear him talking to Steed in the MacKenzie videos.
So it’s possible the REASON that Steed was telling Marsh at that time ( 3:55 PM ) where the fireline now was with (quote) “It’s almost made it to that two-track road that we walked in on” is because by 3:55 PM ( MacKenzie VIDEO time ) Marsh had made good progress SOUTH and really had already started his own ‘descent’ into the box canyon ( and was tying pink ribbons and marking the route ) and was, therefore, now TOTALLY BLIND himself at that moment and was relying on Steed to tell him where the fireline was at that moment.
>> JD also said…
>>
>> Marsh, however, MAY have radioed Steed immediately after
>> Musser’s request to discuss whether the crew should move.
>> Hence the 4:01 p.m. MacKenzie video showing the “comfort
>> level” discussion.
Totally possible… but again… I think you have the TIMES a little off in your ‘visual’ on this.
Musser’s call came circa 3:42 PM.
The MacKenzie videos were shot at 3:55 PM ( not 4:01 PM ).
>> JD also said…
>>
>> It’s also plausible that Marsh began his descent to BSR
>> from his location that already was separate from GM after
>> Musser made his request for more help.
Yes. Also possible… but the only ‘limiting event’ that HAS to be factored in at all times here is that until Frisby called Marsh and told him he was NOT going to make that face-to-face… Marsh MUST have been assuming he needed to be there in that ‘anchor point’ area to MEET him.
We are still assuming that Marsh would NOT have taken off to the south for his scouting mission until that moment he learned Frisby wasn’t coming up for the face-to-face ( at the same place they met before around NOON ).
If he had… and Frisby had ‘missed’ Brendan standing there on that two-track and Frisby had ‘blown right by him’ and continued on up for the face-to-face, then when Frisby arrived up there and said “Okay… I’m HERE now… where’s Marsh?”… Jesse Steed would have had to tell Frisby… “Sorry Brian… you missed him. He just took off to the south to scout something out”.
Frisby would have been MAJOR PISSED if that is what happened.
It didn’t.
It’s simply (still) logical to still assume (unless new evidence proves otherwise) that Marsh WAS there waiting for Frisby until the very moment Marsh was informed (by Frisby himself) that he didn’t need to anymore.
>> JD also said…
>>
>> Under this scenario, Marsh could have been scouting a descent
>> route and timing how long it would take the crew to get to BSR.
The ‘pull’ theory ( Marsh was out AHEAD of the crew and not behind them ) has always also had this assumption attached to it.
It also fully explains the ‘burned up roll of pink tape’ that Tex (Sonny) Gilligan found.
What we still do NOT know is if he ever really did make it all the way to the BSR before calling Steed to say “Bring ’em down”.
Lee and DJ Helm have already testified they NEVER saw ANY firefighters there at the compound ( or on the western edge of it ) during this whole timeframe. Not one. Not ever… and they were even OUTSIDE on the compound in this timeframe putting all their animals in the barn(s).
It’s possible Marsh only got close enough to the BSR to verify it didn’t have a 10 foot high barbed-wire fence on that western side OR a whole pack of nasty guard dogs… and once he was sure of that he started calling back to Jesse and thus began the “Bring ’em down” conversations/arguments.
>> JD also said…
>>
>> Once at BSR, the crew would have been in a better position
>> to assist evacuations or conduct mop-up operations after
>> the fire swept through.
No. Not true.
If that is what Marsh thought… then he was lacking even MORE ‘situational awareness’ that day.
The BSR was still quite some distance even from the western edge of any structures in Glen Ilah. It would have been yet ANOTHER ‘hike’ from the BSR to even get anywhere where they could have been doing anything at all for anyone.
UNLESS… that radio capture where we hear Gary Cordes telling Tyson Esquibel to send at least one ‘Engine’ over the BSR to make sure that Granite Mountain gets (quote) “out of there safely” was actually a continuation of an earlier conversation that Cordes had been having with Eric Marsh himself.
It is still possible that Gary Cordes had communicated with Marsh at some point here and actually made him a PROMISE.
“Eric… you just get them to that BSR and I’ll make sure someone is there to pick you up”.
Apparently SOMETHING made even Eric Marsh SURE that if he could just get GM to BSR… that they WOULD get “picked up” by someone in time to be of any help to anyone at all down there.
>> JD also said…
>>
>> The penultimate argument between Marsh and Steed described
>> by Palladini based on Willis’ account (from McDonough) may have
>> happened closer to 4:20 p.m. when the crew reached the saddle “
>> descent point” off the two-track.
Yes… and may have had a lot to do with Steed initially ‘agreeing’ to take the men ‘out of the black’.
Jesse Steed may have had NO IDEA that the second leg of the ‘mission he was even arguing with Marsh about involved a walk through unburned explosive fuel in a box canyon and right across the path of the SOUTH moving fire.
Jesse Steed may have had his own WTF moment when they reached the ‘Descent Point’ and realized that WAS what Marsh was now asking them to do.
THIS is just one of MANY things Brendan McDonough can probably ‘clear up’.
WHEN did what he hear actually happen… and what was the CONTEXT of the timeframe ( Steed still back at the anchor point? or at the Saddle? or even somewhere ELSE at that point? ).
>> JD also said…
>>
>> The crew could have continued to the south along the two-track
>> and taken the long route back to Yarnell, while keeping on eye
>> on the fire.
Jesse Steed had no frickin’ idea that two-track ( which from his viewpoint at the ‘Descent Point’ looked like it did nothing but head SOUTH to Mexico ) would get anywhere NEAR the ‘objective’ ( The BSR ).
Jesse Steed did NOT even have his OWN sufficient ‘situational awareness’ that day to even suggest that as an alternative.
There is NO evidence that Steed even had a MAP of the area.
That is what has to be factored into the conversations.
In order for Captain Jesse Steed to do a successful TDWAO ( Turn Down With Alternate Option ) with his supervisor Eric Marsh… Steed would have to have known that two-track was going to soon head EAST and right towards the BSR and Candy-Cane Lane area.
I don’t believe he did. Not even a frickin’ clue.
So that didn’t help Jesse do a successful TDWAO with Marsh. He couldn’t offer ‘alternate routes’ because Steed had no idea there WERE any ‘alternate routes’ ( except down off the mountain to the west and out towards more boondock ).
>> JD also said…
>>
>> Of course this would have eliminated the possibility of
>> re-engagement, which is what Willis says they crew
>> would have tried to do.
Exactly. If Jesse was actually trying to do a TDWAO and Marsh was being some kind of bastard and trying to say “whatever alternative you give me still has to achieve the objective of you getting your ass DOWN here to this Ranch”… then Jesse didn’t HAVE any ‘good alternatives’.
He did not have the topographical situational awareness to even DO that and still achieve Marsh’s ‘objective’.
>> JD also said…
>>
>> Hence the reported argument between Steed and Marsh that
>> led to Marsh issuing the fateful order to take the short cut
>> through the box canyon.
Yes. If Jesse had no ‘good alternatives’ ( Sic: alternate routes ) and Marsh was still holding him to ‘achieving my objective’… then Marsh could have just said… “Objections noted… but I am hearing no valid alternative to achieve my objective… so checkmate. Bring them DOWN the way I marked with the pink ribbons… and do it NOW. End of conversation”.
At that point… the next ‘dissenting’ words out of Jesse Steed’s mouth would have been career changing… and he knew it.
>> JD also said…
>>
>> As the crew was coming down, Marsh was already moving
>> back to meet the crew.
Possibly. Marsh knew what a ‘maze’ that was he had just (supposedly) ORDERED them to traverse ( because he just came down that way himself ) and the moment he knew they were coming he might have felt he better ‘get out there’ to SHOW them were all his pink ribbons were so they didn’t get LOST.
This move on Marsh’s part ( if that’s the way it went down ) would actually just be more PROOF that Marsh KNEW this was ‘risky’ and that TIME was of the essence.
He may have been so nervous that they WOULD get ‘lost’ or ‘bogged down’ out there that he BETTER head back WEST to help them…. because TIME was the enemy now. No question.
>> JD also said…
>>
>> The fire had not yet entered the mouth of the canyon between
>> BSR and the deployment site. The ridge to the north would have
>> blocked Marsh’s direct view of the fire approaching from the north.
Possibly. Depending on when Marsh decided to head back WEST to meet them then Yes… he could HIMSELF have gotten far enough back WEST that he couldn’t see the ‘train coming’.
>> JD also said…
>>
>> But when the fire turned the corner and swept over the ridge
>> to the north, it was too late. The fire covered the last
>> 100 yards in 19 seconds.
>>
>> Marsh was with the crew within 90 seconds of its first mayday call.
Actually… I believe the time from the start of Jesse’s first (recorded) “We are in front of the flaming front” MAYDAY call to the moment we hear Eric appearing on the radio talking to “Bravo 33” himself and saying he is now “with” Granite Mountain is 1 minute and 59 seconds.
But don’t forget that according to Darrell Willis, Jon Paladini and THREE AZCENTRAL reporters… there was ALSO a radio call from Jesse Steed direct to Eric Marsh ( on the intra-crew frequency ) when Steed informed Marsh “We’re not going to make it”.
When THAT radio call took place ( if it did ) will be crucial to know.
>> JD also said…
>>
>> Thoughts?
See above. That’s my 2 cents.
McDonough Inteview 10-10-13
617 Q3: Oh, I think when you were doing that assignment, where did they tell you
618 your, uh, safety zone was and your escape route when you were doing that?
619
620 A: We had cold black. And then we could go out the road. We could go out the
621 ridge down to that ranch.
622
623 Q3: They – they talked to you about that as an opportunity then when you first
624 started, going out to the ranch if you had to?
625
626 A: Mm, I can’t really seem to remember. But in, I mean, I remember being told
627 about the ridge. So I – it would make sense that the ranch – you just not gonna
628 take a road going nowhere.
629
A: My escape route 675 and safety zone was, at that time, to stay in the black or to
676 either go back to the vehicles or to go out that two-track road to the ranch or
677 on the other side of the mountain where it burned to. So, I mean, I had pretty
678 – there was multiple options. It’s just which one you wanted to do, which
679 ones can be progressive towards…
It still comes back to this question – if there was an order, why was Marsh so insistent, especially with the pushback from Steed? Did he just want them at the ranch, or need them there? We have speculated at length, but no one so far knows for sure why. Does McDonough know – maybe, but it is far from certain. And if he knows, maybe one reason he has been reluctant to speak up is what he knows CANNOT BE CORROBORATED. He may think no one will believe him, he can’t prove his knowledge, so he has kept silent. That may well not be the case, but could be a reason to clam up.
John, you asked for thoughts, so I will offer some.
You said “The crew could have continued to the south along the two-track and taken the long route back to Yarnell, while keeping on eye on the fire.” My impression is that that would not have helped them, nor would it have been possible to beat the fire that way. As to the first point, my impression from the hiker’s pictures is that that route would have only kept them high for a short bit more, and then their view would have been blocked again. In addition, that area ultimately burned, and we can see from the Matt Oss videos how quickly it burned. My understanding from those who have hiked that area and are expert in these matters is that the crew likely would have ended up trapped, but just in a different area.
You also said: “As the crew was coming down, Marsh was already moving back to meet the crew.” My thought in response to that is that it ignores the fact that it presumably would not have made sense for Marsh to go BACK to meet the crew if everything was fine with the crew. Meaning: if Marsh as Division Supervisor had actually already made it to the Boulder Springs Ranch or close thereto as some folks allege, presumably he would stay there to get ready for the crew to arrive, and he would do things like check out the pumpkin, radio Brendan to bring the trucks, radio for a bigger pump if needed (so that they could use the pumpkin with a bigger pump, if one was not already there, which it might have been). He wouldn’t go BACK to meet them (unless or until it was clear that they were in trouble), would he?
**
** ACTUAL ACADEMIC RESEARCH HAS BEEN DONE ABOUT
** WHY A LOT OF WILDLAND FIREFIGHTERS ARE ‘AFRAID’
** TO SPEAK UP AND/OR TURN DOWN DANGEROUS ASSIGNMENTS
This is a continuation of the thread down below ( beneath the new round of ‘noise’ ) about the TDWAO protocol and the reasons WHY Captain Jesse Steed still (apparently) agreed to make that ‘risky move’ even AFTER he knew it was ‘dangerous’, and had (apparently) been voicing his objections to his supervisor.
I’m going to reprint the most recent comment on that particular thread that came from ‘Method’ that proves it is common knowledge amongst WFF that even exercising your (supposed) “turn down” rights even ONCE can potentially “end your career”…
>> On April 6, 2015 at 3:51 pm, Method said…
>>
>> Gary is 100% correct AGAIN! The one time I turned down an assignment
>> while on a wildland fire, my engine and crew were sent home that same day
>> (I was with a federal agency at the time).. Luckily, my supervisor at home
>> gave me the opportunity to explain my situation and took my side. If he
>> hadn’t, my career in fire would have been over 10 years ago.
I came across the following AMAZING Academic ‘Paper’ that was done on WHY Wildland Firefighters (specifically) are often afraid or reluctant to turn down dangerous assignments or voice their concerns.
If what has now been PUBLICLY reported turns out to be the way it really went down ‘out there’ on June 30, 2013… then we are looking at a situation where a WFF Crew Supervisor was NOT ‘afraid’ ( in the least ) to ‘speak up’ and voice his concerns ( REPEATEDLY )… but ultimately WAS ‘afraid’ to actually do a “turn down” when ORDERED to carry out the ‘assignment’.
Even this WFF ‘scenario’ was covered extensively in this AMAZING Academic Research paper.
It’s not that long of a paper… and I have only included a ‘smattering’ of text from it down below… but it is COMPREHENSIVE and REVEALING.
Even the Academics who launched this study didn’t expect that the RESULTS were going to line up in fascinating ways based on the followinig CAREER STAGE ‘categories’ of WFF Firefighters…
Rookies, Experienced, Expert Veterans.
In a nutshell… the study seems to find that those WFF Firefighters who perceive THEMSELVES to be in the MIDDLE CAREER STAGE category are the ones who are most likely to be observing ALL the known ‘rules of the profession’ and turn down dangerous/risky assignments and not give a flying crap what anyone thinks about it.
THEY are the ones ‘most likely’ ( not always, but study finds ‘most likely’ ) to have the safety of the men under their charge uppermost in their minds and are able to put their own personal ambitions and/or agendas aside when it comes to safety.
It is the OTHER two CAREER STAGE categories ( Rookies, and Expert Veterans ) that feel they have the ‘most to lose’ by refusing assignments and THEY are the ones to really ‘watch out’ for.
This is a FASCINATING STUDY ( Done with REAL Wildland Firefighters ) and it deserves a good read.
It’s not all that long, really.
It actually would not surprise me if this Academic Research Paper comes into play when/if the ‘wrongful death’ lawsuits go to trial.
It’s THAT well done, and RELEVANT.
From the…
International Journal of Wildland Fire 2011, 20, 115–124
Report Title: Career stages in wildland firefighting: implications
for voice in risky situations
Alexis Lewis, Troy E. Hall, and Anne Black
University of Idaho, Department of Conservation Social Sciences,
PO Box 441139, University of Idaho, Moscow, ID 83844, USA.
BUSDA Forest Service, Rocky Mountain Research Station,
790 E Beckwith Avenue, Missoula, MT 59801, USA.
Corresponding author. Email: troyh (at) uidaho.edu
http://www.fs.fed.us/rm/pubs_other/rmrs_2011_lewis_a001.pdf
————————————————————————–
** Abstract.
Avoidance of injury and death on the fireline may depend on firefighters voicing their concerns, but often this does not occur. Reasons for employee reticence identified in the literature include a perception of various personal costs or a belief that raising concerns is futile. Additionally, the social context may play a significant role.
In a qualitative study using in-depth interviews with 36 wildland firefighters in the US, we explored reasons firefighters do or do not voice concerns. Findings revealed two primary themes related to initiating voice (limits to environmental perception and social influence) that vary considerably depending on a firefighter’s CAREER STAGE.
** Introduction
The risks of wildland firefighting are many, and suboptimal decision-making can lead to tragic consequences. Successfully managing risk, particularly in group situations, involves building a rich situational assessment – about the hazard, its associated risk, and about possible actions (Klein et al. 2005) – by drawing on multiple perspectives (Edmondson 1999; Klein et al.2005). If information from all group members is not considered, poor decisions may be reached (Jones and Kelly 2007). Group access to multiple perspectives requires that each individual member be willing and able to speak up (Edmondson 1999).
Here we explore factors influencing speaking up (‘voice’) in the wildland fire arena. Specifically, we seek to understand reasons firefighters (we use ‘firefighters’ and ‘firefighting’ to refer specifically to wildland fire) give for voicing or not voicing their opinions when they feel uncomfortable or unsafe about going into a RISKY situation.
Several themes emerged, which manifest differently based on firefighters’ CAREER STAGE, and hence the findings are organized accordingly.
Personal costs are negative outcomes that an individual believes will arise as a result of bringing up concerns (Edmondson 1999; Detert and Burris 2007). Employees may perceive that, if they openly speak their minds, they will face retaliation from supervisors, such as loss of a job or unfair treatment in the future (Milliken et al. 2003; Detert and Edmondson 2007). Costs can be subtle or indirect, such as teasing from coworkers, a damaged reputation, or otherwise impaired working relationships (Ashford et al. 1998; Desmond 2006).
Additionally, if employees feel their effort will be futile, they will most likely choose not to say anything (Milliken et al. 2003; Detert and Edmondson 2007). Mentioning problems may appear pointless when employees believe, or have concrete evidence, that supervisors are not interested in subordinates’ point of view (Milliken et al. 2003). The power structure of hierarchical organizations ( like Widlland Firefighting ) can emphasize this perception.
Understanding of a fire is highly dependent on communication channels (TriData Corporation 1996), and success of the operation dependent on units following specific orders (Thackaberry 2004). Fire conditions can be dynamic, changing rapidly and dramatically, so it is critical for employees at all levels to alert others to dangerous conditions they detect.
Yet, even when there might seem to be risks involved, firefighters do not always speak up, even though the agency has official ‘turn down’ policies (procedures for refusing orders).
The wildland firefighting culture inculcates strong values, notably ambition and competence (Desmond 2006). Young firefighters experience strong social pressure to carry out tasks capably, efficiently and without complaint. Thus, even though their training emphasises the need to speak up if they have concerns, the culture may lead to a fear of retribution (TriData Corporation 1996) or ridicule (Desmond 2007).
————————————————————————–
Those are just ‘excerpts’ from the paper.
There is a LOT more to this paper and it’s definitely worth a ‘good read’ now that it is highly likely that exactly what this Research Paper is talking about is exactly what happened in Yarnell on June 30, 2013.
Word I am getting this afternoon is that a settlement regarding the YHF has been reached, but I actually find that shocking. That said, it came from a decent source, so maybe it is true. I’d be curious to know what folks in Arizona are hearing.
First answer is no—-
Second comment the Families and there LAWYER will not settle without full disclosure
which they have additional information, above and beyond McDonough .
From my closest source Directly associated with the Family Law suet—
ALSO it is ADOSH who is blocking the Deposition not McDonough—-Interesting?????
I do not understand your post. Are you saying that there is no settlement reached, even in part?
YES I AM SAYING THAT
Let me rephrase that slightly.
There— may be— a settlement between ADOSH and the STATE Fire???
Again there is none concerning the Families as I was told.
Two points…
1) Anything is possible… but just reading from the ALJ Hearing documents posted so far it would be hard to believe that ADOSH has suddenly ‘changed its mind’ after the second ‘blown’ deposition attempt and now does not WANT it to happen.
2) I thought you might also include a comment along the lines of “Now its YOU coming on here and spreading TOTAL RUMORS based on ‘unamed sources’ and yourself just saying ‘maybe its true’. How DARE you and aren’t you ashamed what you’re doing to the poor, poor families and by the way… are YOU Fred?”
You know… stuff like that.
LMFAO
WTKTT
My very good source attached to the Families Law suit said and I double checked them to make sure—- ADOSH is blocking McDonough’s Deposition.
They did not know why— But I think we can all agree that there is one hell of a fight going on behind the Scenes.
Based on what I got today. Also the Families are up and determined to insure Disclosure to them and the public about what happened.
They will not settle for any nothing else and they are prepared to go to full trial if necessary. There Lawyer seems confident after winning against the city.
Bob… THANK YOU.
I believe you.
When ADOSH first requested a ‘delay’ ( but never a cancellation ) of Brendan’s FIRST scheduled depostion back on November 26, 2014… it was simply because they were only 17 days away from the December 13, 2014 deadline for “full document disclosure exchange” with Arizona Forestry.
ADOSH simply thought ( and told Judge Mosesso so ) that a BETTER deposition of McDonough could be had if they simply scheduled it AFTER that December 13 ‘information exchange’ with Arizona Forestry.
That ‘information exchange’ might produce and even better chance at knowing what all the right QUESTIONS to ask McDonough would be for that one ( and possibly ONLY ) chance to ask him questions ‘under-oath’.
ADOSH didn’t get what they asked for.
Judge Mosesso got a ‘verbal promise’ from the AZF attorney’s that Brendan would AGREE to be deposed ( under-oath ) a SECOND time… if it turned out that the December 13 document exchange raised even more questions that he needed to answer.
So ADOSH basically said “Fine… whatever. We’ll just have to trust this McDonough guy that he won’t balk on the second deposition, if needed.”
ALL of this ‘wrangling’ became moot when Brendan informed everyone ( the very day before the deposition ) that he wouldn’t be there.
He told them he had just hired a new ‘criminal’ defense attorney ( David Shapiro ) and that it was Shapiro who was unable to appear on such short notice so neither would he.
As far as the SECOND deposition goes… we still have NO IDEA why that one was cancelled.
There was NO REQUEST from ADOSH to CANCEL that second deposition. If there had been… we SHOULD be seeing that request and the subsequent responses from Judge Mosesso in the ALJ Hearing File.
There is no reason to ‘doubt’ your sources.
But there is also no evidence it was ADOSH that had anything to do with ‘cancelling’ or ‘blocking’ that second scheduled deposition that didn’t take place on February 26, 2015.
It is perfectly POSSIBLE that ADOSH might now be failing to cooperate in setting up even a THIRD date to depose McDonough.
That all depends on WHY the second one was cancelled, what TRUST level they now have of McDonough and Shapiro, and what other things might have happened during March to ( perhaps ) cause ADOSH to change their own strategy for the upcoming “Arizona Forestry vs. ADOSH” Hearing.
ADOSH has already stated ( in the ALJ Hearing File documents ) that they believe whatever Brendan has to say makes NO DIFFERENCE to their own case and the citations that have already been issued.
ADOSH has already found more-than-ample evidence of ‘gross negligence’ all over that fire that day to justify all the citations they issued even just based on their previous investigation.
Discovering even MORE evidence of ‘gross negligence’ leading up to the deaths of the GM Hotshots would just be ‘piling on’, as far as ADOSH is concerned.
So who knows.
Yes… ADOSH could now be ‘not cooperating’ with attempts to set up another day to depose Brendan… but your guess would be as good as mine as to WHY they would now be choosing to do that.
It actually COULD be that now that the ‘global mediation’ has ( according to documents ADOSH sent to Judge Mosesso ) FAILED and it looks like the whole deal IS going to go to a full ‘Hearing’… that ADOSH now really DOES want to put McDonough ‘on the stand’ rather than just go with a private ‘deposition’.
Arizona Forestry, of course, would NOT want that to happen.
They would MUCH rather stick to the original plan of just having a private, controlled ‘deposition’ taking place off in some room somewhere.
We shall see what happens here.
We are now only 10 days away from the ‘deadline’ ( April 17 ) when Arizona Forestry runs out of time to settle this ‘out of court’.
I did not request the ADOSH information it was just handed to me that
We were not getting the facts right here and that ADOSH was the one
not cooperating on the Deposition of Brendan.
I slightly disagree with your analogy of this.
ADOSH would have the most to lose and the State the most to gain on McDonough’s testimony.
If the State can reduce the Fines levied by ADOSH by showing that
Some or all of the decisions made were not the fault of the State Team assigned. As in the crew decision to move on there own.
This is not criminal or a law suit just a work place violation.
If the state can get that changed then they have a chance to Change the out come of the Family Law Suit.
It may or may not be possible but would move the state forward
from there position now.
Just my evaluation of what’s going on right now. It would be hard for the State to win if the work place fines stand’ as issued by ADOSH.
http://www.investigativemedia.com/yarnell-hill-fire-chapter-xiii/#comment-288954
WTKTT
This is a statement I made that I messed up when I typed my name in case it dose not come up.
Thanks for this,WTKTT.
Very helpful thinking out loud.
LMFAO
http://www.investigativemedia.com/yarnell-hill-fire-chapter-xiii/#comment-288677
This might have got lost to EN and all.
Thanks! I hadn’t even seen that.
Go figure down on a response to me on 4/5 @ 4:46 she actually used Mikes name
to support her story.
IMAGINE THAT?????????
Elizabeth you have no comment on the above statement ????????
It just debunked every thing you have promoted about Fred.
and even your sources??????
Why am I not surprised……………
Bob, I’m not sure what you are linking to, so I will just say this: I stand by what I said regarding Fred Schoeffler. I sincerely do.
Did you read the link?
Did you read the posting by WTKTT?
Reply to Bob Powers post on April 7, 2015 at 2:00 pm
>> Bob Powers said…
>>
>> This might have got lost to EN and all.
>>
>> http://www.investigativemedia.com/yarnell-hill-fire-chapter-xiii/#comment-288677
And just in case someone’s mouse is on the fritz today…
On April 6, 2015 at 9:35 pm, Mike Schinstock said…
————————————————————–
Elizabeth said that on the Clear Creek Fire Fred Schoeffler wanted his assistant or Squad Bosses to keep fighting fire after they were no longer comfortable doing so and the assistant or squad bosses basically gave Schoeffler the metaphorical middle finger and moved to the black regardless of Freds view. I was the foreman of the PHS at the time (Friday 14 July 2000 at 1430hrs) That never happened. Period.
————————————————————-
KEY Phrase: THAT NEVER HAPPENED, PERIOD.
I am not to happy with her but john won’t pull here now and a while back she is stocking me calling people in the FS I know and trying to find information to attack me.
So any one out there who gave her there name do not be surprised if she is not checking on you especially if you are a Wild land Fire Fighter.
On top of every thing else she is totally unethical as in reference to Fred and the attacks on him______________
Bob, yet again, you are not telling the truth! You try to lie about me, but the reality is that I have been far more accurate on here than you have ever been. Remember, you and Fred were the folks circulating the untruths months ago that Brendan had ALREADY been deposed. But he had not!
The Lawyers and Brendan canceled the Deposition we did not know that
so if you want to say we were wrong about it that’s a slim assertion.
We were not in the loop of Lawyer’s only second hand info.
No untruths the deposition was planed no one had that info.
I stand behind every thing I said NO LIES there just fact.
Elizabeth says
APRIL 7, 2015 AT 12:29 PM
Here is the thing on which I continue to chew:
As I have looked at this tragedy and spoken with incredibly experienced WFFs – including those who were on the YHF or who had worked with Eric/Jesse or both – who have worked on line on big fires over the past five years or so, they *ALL* have had a story of a close call that they, personally, experienced to tell. One supt. told of having to deploy a shelter, one supt. told of having to turn and run due to being caught at a drop-off that was not expected (such that he had to unexpectedly back-track), another hotshot told of getting gear burned up, another told of losing red bags, another told of simply getting lucky in being slow to finish a particular assignment such that his crew did not happen to be in the line of fire on a huge blow-up.
This does not suggest to me that these guys were reckless or dangerous. Rather, it suggests to me that FIRE IS INHERENTLY UNPREDICTABLE, in terms of WHEN (exactly) it is going to blow up and how badly the blow up is going to be and how fast that blow up will move when it hits its top speed.
Again, Kenny Jordan (former hotshot superintendent) had to endure a long investigation after he had to deploy his shelter on a fire, and the investigator – who was well respected – ultimately concluded that Kenny did NOT violate the 10 & 18 (or whatever they were back then). Yet Kenny STILL got caught and had to deploy his shelter. Why? Because fire is inherently unpredictable. SOMETIMES even really solid folks incorrectly anticipate exactly WHAT a fire is going to do and when, EXACTLY, it is going to do it.
The difference with respect to GM is that they got unlucky, whereas other folks who have incorrectly anticipated fire behavior have often gotten lucky.
Rocksteady – you mentioned the 10 and the 18, but the reality is that you can follow the Ten Standard Orders and *still* get caught. That is what Kenny Jordan – who has been a Hotshot Supt. on a SW fire far more recently than any person posting on this website – indicated in his shelter deployment video. I think Marti provided the link to it below.
Okay, lets talk Kenny Jordans incident…
He deployed, it took 400+ days to clear him. It said he did not violate the 10 and 18, HOWEVER, if you look at situational awareness… he was on a fire on steep slopes, canyons etc and peered over the edge to see fire crossing his line where he did not expect it to be…(his words, not mine)
THEREFORE, he did not take into account of both present fire (his line) AND forecast (over his line)…..
If he had done everything by the book, carte blanche, it would not have taken 400+ days to clear him…. RIGHT??
10 and 18 will keep you safe, but under extreme/aggressive fire behaviour based on fuels, weather and topography, you have to make your decisions with a wider buffer…As long as you follow them and make APPROPRIATE decisions (buffers) they will work…
Here’s the rub, Rocksteady – and obviously feel free to point out what I am missing: If Kenny did NOT go to the edge to look over, how would he have been able to serve as the scout/lookout for his crew and “know what your fire is doing”? I mean that sincerely – he was sending his crew back to their safety zone, and he went out as the scout/lookout to see what the fire was doing. *THAT* is when he got caught. But if he hadn’t gone out, how would his guys have been able to follow the 10 – “know what your fire is doing”?
I am not familiar with the whole incident and all of the details…
Was there someone on the other side of the valley (division) that had eyes on it?
Was there waybe an aircraft (fixed wing or rotary wind) that could have done a recce for him?
Should Kenny have requested a heli for the start of the day to do a recce of his sector of fire, prior to the crew even hiking in?
By looking at the previous days IAP map, did he account for potential growth? If so, what direction and how much?
If he would have gone back with his crew to the Safety Zone (they are called that for a reason), he would not have been trapped on the ledge.
He did nothing there by himself, only armed with a hand tool, to stop the fire from running up the hill, so why go there to start with.??
I said it way back when we talked about his videos, IN MY OPINION, based on the information he states, that both he and his crew were very FATIGUED from all of the hours worked in the previous deployment. Mental as well as physical.
Clarify —–Kenny moved down to a lower shelf from where he was thus putting himself in a greater position for more heat.
How ever he was on a rock out cropping and had to deploy rather than move back to the crew. While he was safe where he was he moved and exposed himself to the rising heat column not flames. He made the division to better see his crew and actually trapped himself on the ledge. did he follow the 10 SO ? Yes
Many Fire Fighters have gone to safe areas and deployed because of heat not direct flames.
I still have no clue why it took 400 days maybe Kenny can tell us……
We are still beating the same dead horse that we have on severial times in the past same question just different people she keeps asking who all are giving her the same replies.
That’s what TROLLS do.
TROLL behavior is well documented.
You can even ‘Google it.
WTKTT Glad to see your still here
Le sigh.
Ken Jordan discusses the Yarnell Hill Fire.
Apparently he disagrees with EN’s assessment.
“Ken Jordan, retired Hotshot Superintendent, talks about how his shelter deployment changed how he approached firefighting and running the crew, including placing emphasis on training and physical agility, changing the culture of after-hours drinking, and “breaking the cool barrier.”
https://vimeo.com/channels/791569/102780014
Le sigh right back atcha. He agrees with me, Marti – I *GOT* the intel from his video. Perhaps you should watch it a bit more carefully, friend (and also watch Bret Butler’s webinar). (In an unrelated vein, Marti, it is good to see up above that you are finally getting on the bandwagon with fire behavior. I believe I quoted Kelly Close’s paper (or at least cited it) a long time ago. The paper you are so excited about finally finding…. says the same thing, in essence. 🙂 )
I brought my previous post up before I noticed that John had responded further down below with:
John Dougherty says
APRIL 7, 2015 AT 12:07 PM
Greetings all, My apologies for the confusion. I was searching the database for the acronym TTWARE and could not find any information. I wrongfully assumed that person had withdrawn their comments.
It did not occur to me that this was “short” for the Truth Will Always Remain Elusive. My apologies to the latter.
Given this information, I can now say there is no duplication of any of the IP addresses that Elizabeth has claimed to all be related to “Fred”.
Thanks to everyone and keep up the great work.
John
NOW MAYBE WE CAN MOVE ON TO A REAL Conversation——
John,
No apology needed! I was just looking for some clarification which you have provided. Continued thanks for hosting all of these chapters.
And after this little skirmish, I find it humorous that EN has placed her same comment at the top three times. I guess that helps to bury her whole Fred debacle further down in the doldrums.
Indeed. Something else which II find notable, TTWARE, is that it only took EN a full 28 minutes from John Dougherty’s original post to disregard everything he said and accuse you AGAIN.
Ha Ha Ha Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha!!!!!!
Thanks, John, and TTWARE!!!
You both rock!!!!!
Here is the thing on which I continue to chew:
As I have looked at this tragedy and spoken with incredibly experienced WFFs – including those who were on the YHF or who had worked with Eric/Jesse or both – who have worked on line on big fires over the past five years or so, they *ALL* have had a story of a close call that they, personally, experienced to tell. One supt. told of having to deploy a shelter, one supt. told of having to turn and run due to being caught at a drop-off that was not expected (such that he had to unexpectedly back-track), another hotshot told of getting gear burned up, another told of losing red bags, another told of simply getting lucky in being slow to finish a particular assignment such that his crew did not happen to be in the line of fire on a huge blow-up.
This does not suggest to me that these guys were reckless or dangerous. Rather, it suggests to me that FIRE IS INHERENTLY UNPREDICTABLE, in terms of WHEN (exactly) it is going to blow up and how badly the blow up is going to be and how fast that blow up will move when it hits its top speed.
Again, Kenny Jordan (former hotshot superintendent) had to endure a long investigation after he had to deploy his shelter on a fire, and the investigator – who was well respected – ultimately concluded that Kenny did NOT violate the 10 & 18 (or whatever they were back then). Yet Kenny STILL got caught and had to deploy his shelter. Why? Because fire is inherently unpredictable. SOMETIMES even really solid folks incorrectly anticipate exactly WHAT a fire is going to do and when, EXACTLY, it is going to do it.
The difference with respect to GM is that they got unlucky, whereas other folks who have incorrectly anticipated fire behavior have often gotten lucky.
My apologies to the other posters here, but I’m going to keep bringing this up until John sees it and responds.
The Truth Will Always Remain Elusive says
APRIL 7, 2015 AT 10:57 AM
John D.,
You must have been hacked!
I have NEVER contacted you about withdrawing any posts from this site.
IT DID NOT OCCUR!
I AM NOT FRED!!!!!!
You NEED TO TAKE A CLOSER LOOK at the so-called information related to the so-called voluntary withdrawal of my posts from this site, After you do, you will see that somehow, you were mistaken.
Then, please let the other folks on here know that you were wrong!!!!
TTWARE NOT FRED!!!
IT DID NOT OCCUR!
Reply
The Truth Will Always Remain Elusive says
APRIL 7, 2015 AT 11:01 AM
If you will notice, all of my posts still appear on this site, and I hope they continue to do so.
John needs to take a real close look at how, what he is alleging about me transpired, and then make amends ASAP.
TTWARE
Reply
The Truth Will Always Remain Elusive says
APRIL 7, 2015 AT 11:11 AM
And the sooner the better.
As is noted in the comments down below, Elizabeth is still running with this falsehood, even after her other false claims have been debunked!!
Reply
Bob Powers says
Here is the thing on which I continue to chew:
As I have looked at this tragedy and spoken with incredibly experienced WFFs – including those who were on the YHF or who had worked with Eric/Jesse or both – who have worked on line on big fires over the past five years or so, they *ALL* have had a story of a close call that they, personally, experienced to tell. One supt. told of having to deploy a shelter, one supt. told of having to turn and run due to being caught at a drop-off that was not expected (such that he had to unexpectedly back-track), another hotshot told of getting gear burned up, another told of losing red bags, another told of simply getting lucky in being slow to finish a particular assignment such that his crew did not happen to be in the line of fire on a huge blow-up.
This does not suggest to me that these guys were reckless or dangerous. Rather, it suggests to me that FIRE IS INHERENTLY UNPREDICTABLE, in terms of WHEN (exactly) it is going to blow up and how badly the blow up is going to be and how fast that blow up will move when it hits its top speed.
Again, Kenny Jordan (former hotshot superintendent) had to endure a long investigation after he had to deploy his shelter on a fire, and the investigator – who was well respected – ultimately concluded that Kenny did NOT violate the 10 & 18 (or whatever they were back then). Yet Kenny STILL got caught and had to deploy his shelter. Why? Because fire is inherently unpredictable. SOMETIMES even really solid folks incorrectly anticipate exactly WHAT a fire is going to do and when, EXACTLY, it is going to do it.
The difference with respect to GM is that they got unlucky, whereas other folks who have incorrectly anticipated fire behavior have often gotten lucky.
Quite frankly, I don’t give a damn about anything you have to say.
NOTE to all
Elizabeth’s close calls are from 2 fires—–
and 2 people—–
The clear creek fire—and Kenny Jordan’s fire
Just embellished by EN
AND ONCE AGAIN Elizabeth, thus there is the …….
10 and 18…
John D.,
You must have been hacked!
I have NEVER contacted you about withdrawing any posts from this site.
IT DID NOT OCCUR!
I AM NOT FRED!!!!!!
You NEED TO TAKE A CLOSER LOOK at the so-called information related to the so-called voluntary withdrawal of my posts from this site, After you do, you will see that somehow, you were mistaken.
Then, please let the other folks on here know that you were wrong!!!!
TTWARE NOT FRED!!!
IT DID NOT OCCUR!
If you will notice, all of my posts still appear on this site, and I hope they continue to do so.
John needs to take a real close look at how, what he is alleging about me transpired, and then make amends ASAP.
TTWARE
And the sooner the better.
As is noted in the comments down below, Elizabeth is still running with this falsehood, even after her other false claims have been debunked!!
And I totally agree you are not Fred—–
Greetings all, My apologies for the confusion. I was searching the database for the acronym TTWARE and could not find any information. I wrongfully assumed that person had withdrawn their comments.
It did not occur to me that this was “short” for the Truth Will Always Remain Elusive. My apologies to the latter.
Given this information, I can now say there is no duplication of any of the IP addresses that Elizabeth has claimed to all be related to “Fred”.
Thanks to everyone and keep up the great work.
John
ATTENTION:
There have been repeated accusations by Elizabeth that a person she identifies as Fred Schoeffler is posting under various names including Seymour, J. Stout, Mike, Robert-the-Second, TTWARE and SR.
I have reviewed the IP addresses of all these names except for TTWARE, who voluntarily withdrew all postings from this site.
All of these names have unique IP addresses and different email accounts. While it is possible that “Fred Schoeffler” is using six different machines under multiple email addresses, I believe that is very unlikely.
I urge all commenters on this site to remain focused on the issue and refrain from personal attacks and unfounded and unsupported accusations designed to discredit the personal integrity of commenters.
If any commenter continues to make unsubstantiated accusations about the integrity of other posters, they will be permanently banned from this site.
This site has made a huge contribution to discovering what happened during the Yarnell Hill Fire.
Keep up the great work.
Thank you,
John Dougherty
Thanks John….
A myth is “BUSTED” 🙂
Rocksteady, the “myth” was confirmed! Why do you think TTWARE withdrew all of his posts as John states! 🙂
OR IT COULD MEAN THAT ANY NUMBER OF OTHER POSTERS HERE WERE
USINING TTWARE
OR NOTHING AT ALL—–
Bob, obviously nobody believes that. 😉
Bob, obviously nobody believes that – TTWARE withdrew his posts for a REASON. 😉 No hard feelings. I knew I was right, and I was. Now let’s all move on…. 🙂
Read above IDIOT—
Counselor,
As John has noted in his comment above:
“I urge all commenters on this site to remain focused on the issue and refrain from personal attacks and unfounded and unsupported accusations designed to discredit the personal integrity of commenters.
If any commenter continues to make unsubstantiated accusations about the integrity of other posters, they will be permanently banned from this site.”
SO, counselor, as far as your being right about me being Fred, you are as full of shit about that as you were about all the other people you so falsely accused!
It would behoove you to pay close attention to those portions of John’s comments that I have reposted here.
Seymour is Fred as is Robert-the-Second – they accidentally posted the exact same comment on Investigative Media. That’s how you can piece together who is who (in addition to tracking the IP addresses).
To that end, please watch what you are saying to me and about me, because John Dougherty just posted a comment instructing folks like you and Bob Powers to tone down your venom. 🙂 You really are distracting this website at this point. If you are not careful, J.D. might ban you! 🙂
There you go again
Saying you are full of shit—
Is the truth—How else can we comment on your posts
that have no meaning or facts???????
By the way note JD’s post —–
Seymour is not Fred.
and he never mentioned RTS????????
Nor did he remove him.
Thank you, John.
I do not know who TTWARE is or why that person elected to withdraw from the site. The fact that person withdrew from the site doesn’t necessarily mean it was an alias for another poster.
There could be a number of reasons why TTWARE elected to withdraw from this site, including the possibility he/she is a Forest Service employee and was ordered to remove comments from the site.
John, as I have clearly stated at the top of this page, you must have been hacked in some way, shape, or form. The request you say came from me NEVER HAPPENED!
The request may have come from someone who said they were me, but with a minimal amount of investigation, you will be able to figure out the truth.
When you do, please share it with the others on here ASAP, because until you do, you have made me into a pariah on this site.
TTWARE
Send him a Email his email is at the top totally private and secure.
Thank you John.
Thank you, John!!!
and THOSE DANG ACRONYMS!!!
Rocksteady said: “They knew the train was [there?], but underestimated it’s speed… .So, in response to Liz, they did not consider it irrational, as they did not have all of the data to process. Fire behaviour, rate of spread, distance thru the green, speed they could travel, etc.”
Rocksteady, they did have ROS, b/c Jesse Steed had sat there and watched the fire move for the past forty minutes (or so) AFTER the wind started really pushing it. They knew the distance through the green because, at least according to Bob Powers and Fred Schoeffler, Eric Marsh had JUST traveled that exact distance through the green to the Boulder Springs Ranch. They knew the speed they could travel, because Eric had just traveled it and could report back to them how long it took HIM, and they could therefore estimate how long it would take them by adding on some time to Eric’s time to account for the fact that it takes longer for a group to travel a route than for a guy moving solo (like Eric Marsh).
What should have been their clue, Rocksteady, that the ambient wind was allegedly going to push hard again and it was going to allegedly change direction again, if the shear on the column was not revealing such, and the incoming clouds were not revealing such? At some point, GM was going to conclude that the wind changes were done – how long did you want them to wait? (I am not trying to defend them – I just want to understand the calculus you personally use as an FBAN in Canada.)
First an FBAN living in Canada uses the same calculation as every one else across the world
What ever the remark about Canada meant?????
For the past almost 2 years have you even been following this Blog???
I for one have repeated over and over GM did not follow the 10 & 18, LCES.
The fire activity was right there in front of them the erratic behavior of the fire the picture that WTKTT released recently of the fade and location of the flaming fronts. Those did not jest appear out of no where at 1620. They were building to that over a 20 min. period.
The real story here is Marsh wanted the crew to take a risk to move to the Ranch pure and simple they used no preplanned move they used no safety they tried to beat the train.
Steed knew it was risky but did as he was told.
Read the last 2 years and lets discuss reality and not what you want the story to be.
Bob, why do you keep responding to me even though you keep promising that you are going to ignore me? Compulsion? Trauma? What is it?
As to my comment about Rocksteady being an FBAN, I made the comment to make clear to Rocksteady that I was asking him as an EXPERT, as opposed to me trying to challenge him. Because he is an FBAN, he has training and expertise that folks who are not FBANs (like me! 😉 ) obviously do not have.
I respond for 2 reasons first you reference me in your above statement.
Second when you make totally poor and uncorrected BS I will always attempt to correct your lack of evident knowledge.——
Knowing the problems between you and Rocksteady who I communicate a lot with off of here I can read your snide remarks as what they are.
You have played that game waaaaay to many times————
Using the train analogy here Elizabeth, just because they were watching the train (fire) does not mean you ASSUME that the train or fire is always going to go that speed. Both accelerate and decelerate for different reasons.
What calculus would I have used to validate a decision? The Fire Behaviour Advisory, that was given at the morning briefing, predicting winds of 40 mph, 100 + temps, single digit rh, drought conditions, scrub chaparral fuel type….. Under those conditions, it is not the time to try to beat any train… Safety MUST be always first…… The briefing in the morning said it had the potential to be a Bullet Train, when they watched it, it was the choo-choo at the state fair.
I take no offense to the Canada comment… all of us Canucks are passive…
Rocksteady, thanks for the reply, and thanks for not taking offense. (I’m a big fan of Canada – travel there every few years, would not have minded being born and living there.)
Here’s where I am getting stuck, Rocksteady: Some weather advisories advise of weather that never comes to pass (which you and I discussed previously), and some weather advisories advise of weather that will show up, pass, impact the fire behavior, and move on. So it seems to me that guys in Marsh’s or Steed’s position are sometimes required to assess whether either of the two prior options (weather that never came despite being predicted or weather that has already passed and whose impact on the fire is essentially “done”) have come to pass. How do they DO that – what is the calculus? Are they supposed to phone or radio the IMET? Are they supposed to sit in the black up on the hill (as they did) and make their own judgment about when the impact of the predicted weather event is “done,” and they can now conclude that the fire has picked its direction for the next short period of time? I mean, GM couldn’t have sat on the hill in the DIRTY black forever…. So what is the calculus to use, in your professional opinion?
Again we are back to the same answers you have been given over and over.
You do not go down in a brush filled canyon in front of the flames less than 3/4 of a mile from you no matter what the weather.
The information on the fire was already there they did not heed it or basically Marsh did not heed it when he made the statement before 1600 that the winds were getting squarely on top. Not to mention the serious things that were already happening.
Trucks about to be burned needed moved.
McDonough moved out of his LO spot due to the fire burning at him.
The note by Marsh that the fire had burned through the Retardant line and to the old grader spot..
All of that was going on before the crew moved—–
Not to mention the problems they were having on the north and east side of the fire.
THEY WERE SUPOSED TO SIT IN THE BLACK UNTILL IT WAS SAFE—–
30 min. would have convinced them to stay right there———–
We have been here over and over you are the only one not getting the implications.
People who put them selves in those situations Unburned fuel between you and the flaming front are taking a huge risk the fire direction wont change.
Even if it was determined to be a 20% RISK THAT IS ENOUGH TO SAY NO
Lets find another route.————
Thanks Bob… You got it…
There was an article the other day on Wildfire today where a fire crew (county, I believe) were out fighting a grass fire, teh engine got stuck, the wind changed, the truck got burned up, thankfully no persons injured.
IF the people there were paying attention they would have thought about:
1) Where is the fire?
2) Where can it go if the wind shifts?
3) Where should our vehicle be if the wind shifts?
Same premise as being on a hand crew, 1 foot (or tire, in the black, where possible). Driving thru unburned fuel when the flames turn are just as dangerous as being on foot.
No calculus involved (which I hated in high school) just SITUATIONAL AWARENESS.and forethought to the “What IF’s….”
Rocksteady, but Bob didn’t answer my questions. Do you have time to do so? (I agree with you on the “what ifs”….) Thank you in advance if you do.
So, they sat and watched the fire burn for 45 minutes…Burning very aggressively (I won’t call it extreme at this time)… So they KNEW what the section of fire nearest them was doing (not predicting to do but actually doing)…. And yes, at that point it may have been going away from where they expected it to be.
However, I am sure that during their lunch break and alleged converstaion between Marsh and Steed, they overheard how the infernos of hell were erupting onto the community of Yarnell/Glen Ihla etc over the tac channel….
So, lets see… The fire is burning agressive, the other side is blowing up, the boss has asked you to ditty bop from the safe black to the Ranch…Would you say “Let’s go for it” and hope the wind and fire behaviour stay status quo?
same fire
same fuel type
same temperature
same relative humidity
same drought conditions
Does this assessment not tell you that the only difference they were counting on was that the winds would stay as observed and NOT change directions, before they made it to the BSR, even though the weather advisory had said thunder cells…. Thunder cells = “squirelly winds” (Where have we heard that before???
In this situation, once the fire blew up, I don’t believe there would have been a time when the specific wind “event” would be considered over… MAybe different, but not over. Now you have lost all winds from teh thunder cell activity, but the winds are now replaced with convective column(s) generating winds.. Not something to be taken lightly, as any experienced Hotshot crew would realize…
Same answers we have made over and over from the same questions. Elizabeth has wanted a different answer for at least a year and a half.
Time to stop the nonsense———
Absolutely classic TROLL behavior.
Totally DOCUMENTED ( Google ‘Internet TROLL ).
Among other ‘troll behaviors’…
Keep asking the SAME questions over and over and over. TROLLS are NOT looking for ‘answers’… they are just keep ‘trolling’ for someone to agree with them.
I have never participated in a forum where this kind of obvious TROLL behavior has gone on so consistently and for so long without that poster being BLOCKED from the site.
WTKTT, I read what you said here and did as you suggested and looked up TROLL. Read the part about the sadism. Read the part about “websites that welcome trolls”. Appears to me such websites are places where it is not just the TROLL visiting the website who has some affinity for sadism.
I know now that such a combo as that is clearly something I am not able to watch being played out. Particularly HERE at this website where so many of the WFF’s have been — and continue to be — some of my favorite people, that I care a lot about. I know their dedication to learning the truth about what happened to the GM crew means that these decent people will stay here to continue the search for answers while attempting to cope with the sadistic games that are so unnecessarily being inflicted upon them and their efforts. I wish these WFF’s well . . . more than they’ll ever know.
Rocksteady, thank you for sharing your thoughts – I will give you a better response later.
For now, though, remember that there seems to be some confusion about whether there was a column collapse or a downburst. Neither thing is predictable, in terms of narrowing it down to a five minute window, for example.
Relevant, I think, and also extremely interesting:
20 Minutes at H-2 – Linear Decision Making in an Exponential Fire Environment
K.R. Close Poudre Fire Authority, Fort Collins, CO
Abstract
“In volatile burning conditions, the fire environment changes rapidly, and the fire itself often
seems to spread at an ever-increasing pace and intensity. In fact, under extreme burning conditions
in steep terrain, there is strong evidence the rate of spread is not linear and steady-state, but
actually becomes exponential during the fire’s final run – intensifying far more rapidly than
people’s perceptions and cognitions can readily reconcile. This appears to have been a significant
factor on Cramer and other recent fatality fires.
Humans on the fireline tend to be linear thinkers, not readily adapted to assess processes
that are accelerating exponentially – particularly in a volatile, rapidly-changing fire environment.
Something doesn’t seem right… your “gut feeling” tells you this, but you just can’t quite put your
finger on many specifics. As conditions deteriorate and fire spread accelerates, perceptions appear
to also deteriorate. Perceptions, cognitions, emotional reactions, and judgments that would be
entirely appropriate under normal circumstances fall short. Peripheral facts and evidence, suggest
an intricate interaction of firefighters’cognitions and resulting actions/reactions, and the rapidlychanging
fire environment is a key factor in the tragic outcome on the Cramer Fire.” …
http://www.wlfalwaysremember.org/images/incidents/documents/2003-07-22-cramer-close-20min-at-h2.pdf
I would like to take a moment, as I continually remind myself, to ask everyone to remember those who responded to the deployment site that terrible day in the hope of helping the Granite Mountain Hotshots starting with DPS Paramedic Eric Tarr.
And if any of you who responded to the Granite Mountain Hotshot deployment site are reading this thread, thank you for your service and your courage. I could never have done what you did on June 30, 2013. I would not have been able to continue to function in the middle of all that horror.
I hope the passage of time has healed some of the scars from the trauma you suffered that day. And I pray that someday…you will be able make it through at least one entire day without thinking about the Yarnell Hill Fire and what happened there.
Thanks Gary for those not use to death from any and all causes especially those you know it is not an easy thing to witness.
It seems my time in the Forest service I was introduced early to Death by accident in my patrol units on the Sequoia, and especially the Angeles, After a while you expect it and build a resistance to it. People I do not believe understand what First responders deal with EMT’s, Police and firemen have to create a mental shield or there system would over load with grief.
After the FS my time in the Sheriffs department added to the horrific death accidents I was on. Having built that mental barrier helped. I will admit Children always bothered me though.
I can not imagine how Frisby and Brown along with the others that went there in 4 wheelers
dealt with the shock. I hope they have been able to heel for the images will follow them for a long time.
The passage of time always heals——
Reply to Gary Olson post on April 7, 2015 at 4:20 am
>>> Gary Olson said…
>>
>> I would like to take a moment, as I continually remind myself, to ask
>> everyone to remember those who responded to the deployment site
>> that terrible day in the hope of helping the Granite Mountain Hotshots
>> starting with DPS Paramedic Eric Tarr.
THREE of those people have never even been interviewed and ( even though no one even TRIED to talk to them and let them ‘tell their story’ ) they are all assumed to be under GAG orders from the U.S. Forestry Service since they all work for Prescott National Forest.
That’s not helpful to THEM.
They put their one lives on the line that day and witnessed some terrible things.
They at least deserve the chance ( for their own well-being ) to be allowed to
TALK about it all.
I am, of course, talking about Jason Clawson, Aaron Hulburd, and KC ‘Bucky’ Yowell.
Jason Clawson was the one heard speaking in the those additional Hulburd video clips that both Arizona Forestry and the U.S. Forestry Service always knew existed but HID from two different official ‘investigations’.
Jason is the one informing OPS1 Todd Abel over the radio that there were “18 confirmed… no medical attention needed at this time”.
I will still bet a dollar to a donut that all THREE of those men ( as well as Brian Frisby and Trueheart Brown ) have, to this day, been wanting a better explanation of what the hell those men were even DOING there dead on the floor of that box canyon… and WHY they had to witness what they did that afternoon.
At least Brendan McDonough gets to run around and play games with lawyers AND the media.
All of THESE men have to sit back and just WAIT for someone to give them a better explanation about why they have to now carry those horrible images around in their heads for the rest of THEIR lives.
Elizabeth said that on the Clear Creek Fire Fred Schoeffler wanted his assistant or Squad Bosses to keep fighting fire after they were no longer comfortable doing so and the assistant or squad bosses basically gave Schoeffler the metaphorical middle finger and moved to the black regardless of Freds view. I was the foreman of the PHS at the time (Friday 14 July 2000 at 1430hrs) That never happened. Period.
Thank you Mike its been flowing BS for some time.
From one Hot Shot to another.
She never gives up will clame we protect each other.
and her sources have more info than any one else.
Elizabeth wrote
Reply to Marti Reed post on April 6, 2015 at 9:25 am
>> Marti said…
>>
>> I’m still scratching my head about the timing.
>> The Daily Courier still hasn’t broken this story, even though
>> Wildfire Today has. Maybe there is a reason for that.
One can ONLY hope the ‘reason’ is that they are trying to turn the ‘hack job’ that was released last Friday into a better piece of reporting.
What it NEEDS ( at a minimum ) is…
1) Clarification on whether the ‘story’ that Paladini is telling is SOLELY based on conversations with Darrell Willis… OR whether Paladini might have heard a few more significant details from Brendan himself ( or even others ) as he was acting as the official ‘mediator’ between Brendan and Arizona Forestry ( prior to Brendan retaining his own criminal counsel, Mr. David Shapiro ).
It is ‘not credible’ that Attorney Jon Paladini wouldn’t have had ANY direct conversations with Brendan himself in the course of acting as the official ‘mediator’ between Brendan and the Arizona State Attorney General’s office as that first under-oath deposition was being ‘arranged’.
That would EXPLAIN why Precott City Attorney Jon Paladini ( a VERY accomplished and respected LAWYER ) says he is “standing by his story” even though Darrell Willis ended up hemming and hawing and saying he doesn’t ‘recall’ saying some of the things that Paladini now says he ‘knows’.
Paladini could have been including details that really did NOT come from Darrell Willis’ initial conversation with him… but Paladini heard them later from either Brendan himself… or some other person who had ‘talked’ with Brendan.
2) WHO are the ‘other witnesses’ openly referred to in the article who were ALSO ( apparently ) interviewed for that article? If they are specifically CHOOSING to remain ‘anonymous’ and spoke only on a guarantee of that… then it needs to say that as well.
3) A COHERENT response from the person who is actually at the epi-center of the article… Brendan McDonough himself.
4) Even WITHOUT Brendan’s cooperation or comment… a good reporting on the attempts to depose him, what really happened with BOTH attempts, and where that stands NOW. Will there be another attempt at an ‘under-oath’ deposition… or not? Will it ONLY happen if the mediation fails and the ‘wrongful death’ cases are then going to TRIAL… but the last thing Brendan wants is to ever have to be on a ‘witness stand’… so they will ‘negotiate’ for another ‘private deposition’?
ALL of the above are now PARTS OF THE STORY that was NOT reported on Friday.
>> Marti also said…
>>
>> I’m skeptical that the Fire Shelter thing is ALL THAT related
>> to this recent revelation.
So am I, actually… but I felt I needed to include in the list of “things that have POPPED” just in the last 10 days… DURING this whole secret ‘mediation’ thing.
Because it MIGHT be related. Might NOT.
>> Marti also said…
>>
>> The Turbyfills aren’t part of the suits.
You are right. The PARENTS aren’t… but Travis’ WIFE is.
Thank you for correcting me.
It is Stephanie Turbyfill ( Travis’ wife ) who is one of the listed plaintiff’s in the ‘wrongful death’ lawsuits… and NOT David Turbyfill ( Travis’ father ).
AZREPUBLIC
Article Title: Yarnell Hill Fire: 12 hotshot families sue state
Published 4:51 p.m. MST June 27, 2014
http://www.azcentral.com/story/news/arizona/2014/06/27/yarnell-hill-fire-12-hotshot-families-sue-state/11525623/
From the article…
——————————————————————————-
The listed plaintiffs in the case are: Juliann Ashcraft, wife of Andrew Ashcraft; Claire Caldwell, wife of Robert Caldwell; Krista Carter, wife of Travis Carter; Michael MacKenzie, father of Christopher MacKenzie; Grant McKee, father of Grant McKee Jr.; Daniel Parker, father of Wade Parker; John Percin, father of John Percin; Desiree Steed, wife of Jesse Steed; Stephanie Turbyfill, wife of Travis Turbyfill; Roxanne Warneke, wife of William Warneke; Carl Whitted, father of Clayton Whitted; and Joseph Woyjeck, father of Kevin.
——————————————————————————–
Something tells me, though, that given the hard work Travis’ FATHER has been doing for over a year on the ‘improved fire shelter’… Stephanie Turbyfill probably has that on HER list of ‘INDUSTRY CHANGES’ being demanded by the ‘plaintiffs’.
Any number of the other ‘plaintiffs’ are probably firmly on board with that as well.
Copy.
And thanks for that correction about the Turbyfills regarding Travis’s wife. So that adds more substance to your hypothesis.
And I agree with every thing you are saying here.
That being said, I have been contemplating all day your idea that what is ACTUALLY going on here is some kind of “whatever it takes” “corralling” of Donut, by AZFire, via the media via AZCentral (which is the statewide “journal of record” for Arizona, even tho this article sucks, for whatever reasons, including some of the things I have hinted at downstream).
Regarding the Daily Courier. It’s a different animal, as I’m sure you are aware of. It’s vastly more intimately rooted in the community of Prescott, for better or worse, and where, mostly, the most people intimately related to the Granite Mountain Hotshots live.
And also most intimately rooted in the whole relatively “conservative”, and, thus not-particularly-scientific-method-or-anything-else-criticaly-analytically-minded majority of the local population.
Which translates into the fact that they are probably walking something more of a tight-rope here than AZCentral/Arizona Republic is.
To be honest, I’ve gradually come to be more impressed with Lynne LaMaster’s relatively clean prescottenews.com coverage of some of this stuff lately than that of the Daily Courier.
So it will be really interesting what comes up in the next few days.
I’m guessing, all things considered, there’s quite a bit of scurrying around going on on both of their parts regarding this breaking story.
Brendan’s most likely got a whole lot of HEAT being applied to him right now from a HOST of different directions.
I wouldn’t want to be in his shoes.
That being said, what ever decisions he’s making right now will both reveal his basic character to both the public and to himself, and shape his life FUNDAMENTALLY from here on out.
That being said, I really hope Brendan’s got SOMEBODY advising him that really has HIS TRUE WELL-BEING as their first priority.
Given all of what we have seen so far, unfortunately, I don’t have any evidence whatsoever that that is the case.
Reply to Marti Reed post on April 6, 2015 at 10:07 pm
>> Marti said…
>>
>> That being said, I really hope Brendan’s got SOMEBODY advising
>> him that really has HIS TRUE WELL-BEING as their first priority.
And not only ADVISING him ( he’s probably pretty SICK of that, at this point )… but simply making sure he’s OK.
It would be a shame if something happened that would make it forever impossible to know what he knows… and I think you know what I mean.
This.
“4) Even WITHOUT Brendan’s cooperation or comment… a good reporting on the attempts to depose him, what really happened with BOTH attempts, and where that stands NOW. Will there be another attempt at an ‘under-oath’ deposition… or not? Will it ONLY happen if the mediation fails and the ‘wrongful death’ cases are then going to TRIAL… but the last thing Brendan wants is to ever have to be on a ‘witness stand’… so they will ‘negotiate’ for another ‘private deposition’?:
“the last thing Brendan wants is to ever have to be on a ‘witness stand’
What a contradiction/cognitive dissonance.
He’s walking around with this whole thing inside of his mind, and the burning significance of it, and his “need”/need to disclose it.
Given what Brian Frisbee’s mom said about what Brian was going through. This stuff is real. PTSD in spades.
And yet there are all these “false alarms” regarding Brendan’s deposition.
If, given all this, “the last thing Brendan wants is to ever have to be on a ‘witness stand’
…all things considered, I would speculate that is because, since Eric Marsh hired him, in spite of his imperfections, and then built him up via involvement in the Granite Mountain Hotshots……
……He just CAN’T, in his mind/heart, PUBLICLY narrate a story (however much he has felt some need to get that off his chest) that includes Eric ordering Jesse to lead the crew to descend from the Safety Zone they were already in, much less descend from the saddle into a bowl full of explosives, thus crossing the fire, thus leading into all of their deaths.
More Shakespeare.
As I have said periodically:
Shakespeare could have written this fire.
Thus, I would advise that nobody take ANY of this overly simplistically.
Reply to Marti Reed post on April 6, 2015 at 10:39 pm
>> Marti said…
>>
>> He just CAN’T, in his mind/heart, PUBLICLY narrate a story
>> (however much he has felt some need to get that off his chest)
>> that includes Eric ordering Jesse to lead the crew to descend
>> from the Safety Zone they were already in, much less descend
>> from the saddle into a bowl full of explosives, thus crossing the
>> fire, thus leading into all of their deaths.
If that is what happened… then that is what happened.
It wasn’t HIS fault.
There is NO NEED for Brendan to have EVER felt that it was necessary for him to HIDE that reality from ANYONE.
Even now… his initial BAD choices in this regard just continue to worsen.
He has to ‘get this over with’… no matter how ‘painful’ he imagines it might be to himself or anyone else.
The families have said OVER AND OVER that they WANT the TRUTH… no matter WHAT it is.
Some of them stood there in that auditorium on the morning of September 28, 2013 when the SAIT was officially ‘presented’ to them and SHOUTED at the men on the stage ( through their own tears ) “WHY won’t you just tell us the TRUTH!”.
His BEST ( and least painful? ) option now is to simply get the attorneys for BOTH sides of the ‘wrongful death’ suits to AGREE ( as they have TWICE already ) to ‘accept’ a private ( but transcribed/recorded ) ‘under-oath’ deposition from him and also have them AGREE that that will ‘suffice’ as far as his ‘involvement’ in those proceedings go.
I don’t think he realizes that if he pushes this… and continues to ‘jerk around’ with the attorneys… one side or the other might NOT AGREE to such a ‘private deposition’ and they will be so pissed at this guy they will now WANT to ‘get him on the stand’.
I’m sure Brendan has seen some CNN trial broadcasts before such as the craziness out of Florida over that poor teenager shot to death by that policeman-wannabee idiot.
Unless cameras are BANNED from the Courtroom ( not likely in this case )… his open-court testimony WILL be splattered all over television screens ( probably LIVE ) from here to kingdom come.
It will be NEWS.
It will be the kind of stuff that the MSM just LOVES to cover.
——————————————————————
BREAKING NEWS: Only Granite Mountain Survivor testifying LIVE right now in Yarnell Hill Fire wrongful death lawsuits.
—————————————————————–
If the attorneys really are pissed enough… they are also going to GRILL him ( on camera ) about WHY he was essentially ‘obstructing’ BOTH of the original investigations. Whoever grills him WORSE will just depend on which table in the courtroom feels it would benefit them MORE to ‘discredit him as a witness’.
It even gives ME the shivers realizing what that open-court session might look like if it goes down like that.
Nah… Brendan’s only ‘least painful option’ now is to do an under-oath deposition and suffer the cross-examination in PRIVATE.
All that being said…
If Brendan’s criminal attorney David Shapiro really is advising him that he should RESIST any and all attempts to get him to talk about ANYTHING he may know… and is promising him he can ‘protect him’ and prevent all attempts to ‘get to him’…
…I think Brendan should get himself another attorney toot-sweet.
One who will advise him that he can’t keep playing this game forever and the best he can hope for is a PRIVATE ( no cameras ) deposition and some assurances he won’t ever get slapped with any ‘obstructing an investigation’ charges.
Are you the same Mike from last year who is a doctor, or did we lose him along the way?
Well, I was getting ready for a big response, but WTTKT beat me to it and has it more or less right. But I will still take a shot at it.
Yes, it is confusing and no…I am not the best one to talk about it, none of the best people who can talk about it with more current and relevant experience are here….they are all too afraid to even comment here because they will lose their careers and maybe even their jobs. So how does that strike you for an open and honest culture where you are free to candidly express your opinions and tell everyone what you really think about the plan?
I haven’t been in fire since 1988 and I have been retired since 2006, and Bob retired even earlier than me. And it is obvious neither one of us are counting on going out as pick-up players on fire assignments on short fire teams like so many other retirees are hoping to so they can stay relevant and make a few extra bucks since they are finding it impossible to keep their same lifestyle in retirement. So we are all you got, even if I am not the best one to talk about it.
I think the “turn down” protocols are pure unadulterated BULLSHIT and are just something some mid level manager thought up the big shots signed off on after one of the last disaster fires. I am betting the turn down protocols which did not even exist in my day have about the same value to working stiffs as magic pixie dust would to keep them from being burned in a flash over or safe from bullets (pick your analogy, fire or law enforcement).
And the only reason they really exist is to allow the agencies, mangers, supervisors to say, “Gosh, we are really sorry for the loss of your “fill in the blank here” and they were killed while engaging in a qualifying work assignment, but it really wasn’t our fault, we gave your “fill in the blank here” the very best training that was available in the world and not only that, we then EMPOWERED them to pick and chose which assignment they believed were too risky for them to participated in and it’s not our fault if they didn’t call a time out and go home or whatever….is it?
Look right here in the handbook, manual, policy directive, it clearly states they had not only the power, but the duty and responsibility to call BULLSHIT on any assignment they felt could go badly for them, so you see…it’s really all their fault. We didn’t do anything WRONG.
And of course they never tell you that the “can do”, “gung ho”, “get er done” culture of wildland firefighters does not tolerate anyone actually using the turn down protocol unless they don’t want to get promotions, awards, recognition, desirable assignments, increased responsibility, choice duty stations etc.
And that if they develop a reputation based perhaps on a single incident as being someone who does not play ball, or is not a team player, or does not go along to get along, well…that could very well be the end of their career in an agency like the USFS and in the wildland firefighting culture where they eat their young and kill off the weak, sick and injured.
Based on my experiences, policy directives do not have to be followed by “they” except when “they” want to, and the primary purpose for them is to hang the firefighter or other employee out to dry whenever “they” want to, or it is their best interests or the governments best interest to do so.
The wildland firefighting world is not black and white, it is more like 50 shades of grey. And yes, it has more similarities to the military than it is has differences from the military, in fact, you could definitely say it is quasi-military and on some days, and for some things, it is even more military than the military.
Thanks for this, Gary. That’s what I’ve been picking up through this past year plus.
I will just add what I wrote a bit downstream:
This SO reminds me of the whole South Canyon Anniversary “Let’s all talk about stuff” PR campaign the USFS threw out there last early summer. With the awesome video and all.
While Brian Frisby and the Blue Ridge Hotshots were heading into wildfire season still under a GAG ORDER that they’re STILL UNDER.
And Brian’s mom describing the PTSD that Brian was in BECAUSE OF THAT, while heading a crew that was FIGHTING WILDFIRES.
Oh yeah, USFS, tell me all about how SAFETY FIRST is the FIRST priority.
You betcha!!!!!!!
Gary is 100% correct AGAIN! The one time I turned down an assignment while on a wildland fire, my engine and crew were sent home that same day (I was with a federal agency at the time).. Luckily, my supervisor at home gave me the opportunity to explain my situation and took my side. If he hadn’t, my career in fire would have been over 10 years ago.
Do you mind if I ask a question here?
Was that incident BEFORE of AFTER this whacked out TDWAO ( Turn Down With Alternate Option ) protocol was implemented?
If it was AFTER… did you actually do the TDWAO thing… complete with ‘paperwork’ afterwards? ( as supposedly required? ).
I’m just curious as the the TIMEFRAME being referred to here.
The “Granite Mountain Hotshots” were, themselves, ‘demobbed’ immediately after (supposedly) doing the TDWAO dance on a fire THEY were working.
That ‘story’ was told by Darrell Willis in his ADOSH interview which is what caused ADOSH to request the ‘documentation’ regarding that incident.
That documentation was provided… and it does, in fact, sound like Eric Marsh “did it the right way”… but GM got ‘demobbed’ anyway because he had pissed off the DIVS that he was working for… and Willis says he received a ‘bad report’ ( which he then failed to produce because he says he couldn’t ‘find it’ or something ).
WTKTT
I believe the turn down protocol was established in the 90″s or earlier.
It was established in California in 1974 Then latter revise Nation wide
My memory fails me on that date. It has been around for some time though.
As Gary said the recent few years it has turned on the fire fighters.
unless there home supervisor supports them and gets the negative removed.
Methods said it was 10 years ago or his carrier would have been over.
WTKTT,
Bob is right, it was 10 years ago, I believe in 2005. We followed the TDWAO (now called “How to Properly Refuse Risk” found in the IRPG on pg. 19) and filed a SAFENET. We literally were picked up for a new assignment within hours.
Method… Thank You.
I’m sorry that just the simple exercise of your rights as an employee AND as a firefighter had to lead to even the slightest chance you might ‘lose your career’. That is nerve-racking, insulting and shouldn’t happen to ANYONE.
See a new post above regarding a fascinating Academic Research paper I just found ( done as recently as 2011 ) which examines the specific question of WHY ‘Wildland Firefighters’ ( specifically ) are often AFRAID to exercise their stated right to do a “turn down”.
This no-shit ACADEMIC research is now DIRECTLY related to what (apparently) happened in Yarnell on June 30, 2013.
Direct ‘clickable’ link that will take you right to that new comment up above would be…
http://www.investigativemedia.com/yarnell-hill-fire-chapter-xiii/#comment-288915
Gary, the same Mike. But you can call me Fred.
I agree, little in life is truly black and white. The shades of grey usually muddle everything up. Hindsight always makes things so much clearer. But people weep and gnash their teeth over events like South Canyon and Yarnell, say “never again”, and then go back to the same system that produced those tragedies. Maybe we can’t do better, maybe changing things will just create new problems. But human beings are relentlessly optimistic – we always feel compelled to try.
Right on Mike…I mean Fred! I’m glad you’re still here, I thought many of your posts showed some real insight and understanding for someone on the outside!
And of course like everything else, it is not as simple of more wildland firefighters aren’t commenting here because they are afraid for their carrers and their potential retirement income as casuals.
Everybody knows about the blue wall, but the red wall is just as big, just as strong, and just as impenetrable. And to be fair to wildland firefighters, I’m sure they think they can make the necessary adjustments without all of us outsiders meddling. I hope they can, or more importantly, I hope the system allows them to do so. I’m sure it would be asking to much to ask the system to support them.
In case anybody gives a d*mn, given all the pyrotechnics that are going on right now.
I’ve been still trying to comprehend all the various things regarding the still quite controversial (and probably connected to Darrell Willis’ recent current meltdown, and possibly the one he went through last fall that everybody’s talking about now)…….
…….ICMA Analysis that have been really troubling to me, regarding how Prescott moves forward with its wildfire situation, now that both the Granite Mountain Hotshots and the Wildland Division have been dissolved.
There have been three things that have been really BUGGING me about this whole thing.
1) The lack of, in spite of all the platitudes that assure it, public input into it or conversation about it.
2) The lack of any kind of specific description/evaluation of what kind of wildland fire suppression response from anyone other than the Granite Mountain Hotshots that was happening before June 30, 2013.
3) The lack of any clear description of what, in fact, kind of specific and reliable wildland fire suppression response is needed/recommended moving forward.
I’ve pretty much spent most of the entire weekend looking at everything I could find that was presented to/discussed by the Prescott City Council regarding this.
(And thanks WTKTT, for posting that Prescott eNews link. I hadn’t come across that. It was very helpful)
Regarding 1). It is really really really really really hard to find important information on the Prescott City Council website. Not only that, but a number of important minutes of important meetings are missing. And even the minutes that are there are almost agonizingly hard to find.
And, from what I have spent way too much time this weekend trying to look at, there really is NO PUBLIC INPUT mostly anywhere regarding this study, this document, or the decisions that were/are being made as a result of it.
That being said, I, personally, think it’s a really interesting analysis and probably, all things considered, fairly un-biased and probably worth the money. There’s a LOT of data, interpretation, and recommendations in it, especially given the really short amount of time in which they did it, and the price Prescott paid for it.
HOWEVER, it is definitely not friendly to the un-initiated. Which most of the citizens of Prescott are. I had to REALLY struggle to understand the parts of it that were of most concern to me — i.e. the wildland fire program.
In trying to understand WHAT IS IT (other than the Granite Mountain Hotshots) it was really difficult.
It just wasn’t designed for Citizen Participation, nor has it been used for that. And I have a huge problem with that. And I think that’s directly related to what is causing the fight that is causing everybody’s consternation about it all, and the fact that some of that consternation is related to some of what everybody is doing pyrotechnics right now about.
i.e. wildland fire vs the city of prescott including willis vs whomever includin az fire vs adosh etc etc etc.
Anyway, moving along.
Regarding 2) It is REALLY hard to find, ANYWHERE, what was/is going on in the Prescott Fire Department regarding wildland fire suppression outside of the Granite Mountain Hotshots. There is, essentially, NOTHING about it on the Prescott Fire Department website, including the part of that under “Wildland Division.”
Which is not the case for a whole bunch of other Fire Departments/Districts. Most of them are quite clear about what kinds of crews, equipment, qualifications, are involved in their wildland fire fighting work.
Given that that is the case, I was really hoping the ICMA analysis/report would analyze and document that in some kind of easily accessible manner.
Unfortunately that is not the case. It is not described in the wildland fire segment (the one disputed by Willis — for which I thank WTKTT for the link that holds both the draft and final report) nor even almost elsewhere.
Almost nothing says what other wildland fire-fighting is going on in the Prescott Fire Department regarding wildland fire-fighting, which is really disturbing to me given that the recommendation is to have it done the way it’s always been done. Like REALLY??? What does that mean???????
I say Almost. That’s because, after hours of pouring over the report I think I may have found it. You have to get all the way through it and into the Appendices to find it.
There you find it, I think, in the data charts regarding the Stations. They show what kinds of hours etc various apparatuses have spent doing various types of things. They show these things called “Patrol Vehicles.” Somewhere buried in all of that it is explained that these are what are called Brush Trucks. Which WE all know, by now, are Type 6 engines, the stuff you use on wildland fires.
There are five of them within the Prescott Fire Department.
When you get into the Appendices, and you know what you are looking for, then there are some very interesting data about them. And THAT’S what I think the report recommendations are pointing to when it says “we’ll do what we’ve always been doing,” without EVER saying what, exactly, that MEANS.
Also, what it took me a couple of hours to figure out, is there is this handcrew listed in these appendices under Station 71. It’s called C-7. There is nothing anywhere explaining what C-7 is. On a spreadsheet it shows it logging 30 hours in 2013 on calls. Two of those calls were listed as “false alarm.” One was listed as “outside fire.”
Is that the Granite Mountain Hotshots?? Who knows????? I think it is, but what the heck?????? They weren’t even staged at Station 71. But no other “hand crews” were either, that I know of, given that the Prescott Fire Department doesn’t say anything about anything wildland fire related other than the Granite Mountain Hotshots.
There is also a Prescott National Forest engine staged there with a crew of 4-7. But I can’t imagine their time was being logged into the CAD ICMA was using to generate all this data.
So, I ask, how are the citizens of Prescott supposed to evaluate the recommendations of the ICMA (much less the decisions of their City Council upon advisement of their new Fire Chief from Yuma), when it’s almost impossible to know what the PFD is doing, regarding wildland fire-fighting, other than the Granite Mountain Hotshots, and this report doesn’t give them any information regarding that (unless you spend a couple of days tryiing to figure out how to read the fine print)?
Which leads me on to 3). This will be relatively short, given that what I have written above basically leads right into it.
If the recommendations regarding wildland fire suppression (and I haven’t even gotten to the potential issues regardng mitigation) from the ICMA, edited by the fresh from Yuma new Fire Chief, applauded by the City Council, with essentially NO input or conversation by or among the CITIZENS of Prescott (who probably can’t even find the relevant documentation on the website, much less comprehend the bits of data buried within them) are to be understood and deliberated on in order to be trusted, how come there is this lack of any clear description of what, in fact, kind of specific and reliable wildland fire suppression response is needed/recommended moving forward????????????
I think Darrell Willis really blew it. But I also think there is really a huge big problem with this whole report and process.
Even though I also think maybe it’s possible that the existing crews with their existing Brush Trucks, and supporting vehicles and crews, and interagency support, might be capable of handling the various wildfires that strike Prescott, as the report says they might be capable of doing in its analysis of what kind of fire might most significantly endanger Prescott.
Although I really like Gary Olson’s idea better because part of me agrees with his caveats regarding having structure fire-fighters doing hardcore serious wildland fire-fighting, even though that is more and more, out of necessity, going on.
But that’s just my thinking. And it bothers me mightily that any kind of public citizen-based conversation about this really important bunch of decisions is, apparently, being actively thwarted.
The “Fire andEmergency Medical Services Operations and Data Analysis” Prescott, Arizona, August 2014 is here:
http://prescottaz.suiteonemedia.com/Web/GenFile.aspx?ad=1343
Reply to Marti Reed post on April 5, 2015 at 10:43 pm
>> Marti said…
>>
>> In case anybody gives a d*mn, given all the pyrotechnics
>> that are going on right now.
Following right along and reading everything, Marti. Thank you.
With regards to possibly finding some of the documents that seem to be ‘missing’… here is a TRICK you can try.
When I was looking for all the budget documents for City of Prescott… I discovered that just because someone failed to provide a top-level LINK on some info page to documents from past years doesn’t mean they aren’t actually still sitting right there on the same Server.
Example….
There is a ‘page’ on the Prescott Website that has clickable links to previous Prescott budget documents… but that ‘front end’ page decided not to list anything earlier than 2007.
The FILENAME in the url for the 2007 budget was “cpfr_2007.pdf”.
Well… all I had to do was manually change the ‘2007’ part of the URL filename to some other year and VOILA!… there is the previous year’s budget sitting on the same server.
So even though they have no links on their website… the following previous year budget files are still totally viewable with the following URL request filenames…
cpfr_2006.pdf
cpfr_2005.pdf
cpfr_2004.pdf
etc.
The ‘cpfr’ stands for “City of Prescott Financial Report’.
They keep using the same FILENAME each year but just changing the YEAR part.
So you might try THAT trick with some of these ‘City Council minutes’ files that seem to be ‘missing’.
More later.
Thanks for that, WTKTT!
I probably am not going to be able to do much more digging into this. I have a HUGE pile of critical urgent undone things to get done, including, but not limited to tax stuff, and that’s partly why I decided to get all single-minded and finish trying to drill down into that ICMA stuff as much as I could this weekend. I really need to “Retire” (she says for the forty-miillionth time).
And realizing things were about to explode and get truly crazy, finally, made me even more determined to “finish up” my digging activities sooner rather than later.
Now I can kind of kick back and go more into just reading (and eating my popcorn……………)
The minutes are not in that kind of file format that you can do that kind of thing that you described above. There may be another way to find them, I haven’t had time to go look.
And, at first I thought, looking at budgets isn’t gonna help me with trying to figure out, relatively exactly, what kind of other wildland fire-fighting was going on before, during, and, now, after the era of the Granite Mountain Hot Shots.
But then I thought again, you might be right. It might actually be quite helpful.
But I don’t think I have time to do it any time soon.
And the question remains, why does someone have to do all this minutiae digging just in order to de-encrypt what that $90K report is referring to in the just slightly critical realm of Prescott Fire Department staffing/equipping/re-organizing itself for wildland fire-fighting?
It should have been just described in the report.
And thanks for confronting the four millionth round of BS with such patience, imagination, clarity, and humor.
It was a great read this morning. Even without popcorn.
Namaste
Marti – We clearly have the duties and responsibilities divided up on this thread. You and WTKTT are responsible for keeping this thread on track and moving forward. Elizabeth is in charge of being annoying and throwing out shiny objects for Bob and I to chase after. And I am in charge of blah blah blah backstory and general commentary…some of which is grounded and some of which simply helps me pass the time in retirement while Bob and I bullshit about the good ole days, which really sucked if the truth were to be known. So…FORGE AHEAD, WE HAVE YOUR BACK!
Thank you, Gary!!!
I learned the hard way, believe me.
And, ps, I really have enjoyed your commentary!!
Yikes, they just issued our long-dreaded red-flag warning.
I guess clearing out my backyard is now higher on my list of priorities than getting my roof fixed. I haz a defensible space problem.
Thank you, and I have enjoyed your hard work even more. Red flags in ABQ already? How is Northern New Mexico looking, (Jemez, Santa Fe, Pecos etc.)? I really miss the Santa Fe, I hated it for the first 2 years and then loved it for the other 16 years in New Mexico. ABQ is OK but Farmington sucks.
LOL, I’ve been mostly in “virtual Flagstaff” since yesterday, so I’m not sure if we have any fires here.
But, as of this afternoon, anyway, Flag’s got a red flag warning, also, and a couple of fires got sparked there yesterday.
My dad grew up in Santa Fe, in a house that was, at the time, at the end of Don Gaspar on the south edge of town. Nothing from there to Albuquerque but wide open spaces.
I always wanted to move back there and buy that house. I loved it.
But, when I came back to New Mexico in 1990, Santa Fe was just so crowded and bustly and expensive and gentrified that I completely lost that desire.
I’m so rooted in Burque. But, after living in Flagstaff, Burque’s always been to big for me.
I think that’s why I’m so fascinated with looking at the Fire “organization” in Prescott and Flagstaff. I can actually wrap my brain around them.
At one point I had decided that when Terra graduated from Albuquerque Academy I would move to either Las Vegas (New Mexico, of course) or Silver City. I really would like to live somewhere smaller.
But pretty much as soon as Terra headed off to Orygun, I had to increasingly stay close to my parents, and I’ve been on an increasingly really short leash here ever since.
I really loved Flagstaff. It was really perfect for me. The only reason I moved back to Burque was because I was sick of abject poverty (especially with a kid in tow, her first two Christmases were painful) and my dad was setting up a business and offered my four times as much as I was making to come home.
And yeah, Farmington. I have had neither the need nor the desire to even waste the gasoline to go there since I came here.
My theme song is from Rent.
“We’re gonna open up a rest-au-rant in
SANTA FE!!!”
Even tho I originally went to Flag to be the Minister of First Congregational Church, I eventually ended up being one of those many many people with Masters Degrees who were working in the restaurant industry there.
Lots of freedom, pretty good tips, and endless interesting places to go hiking, back-packing, and rowing. West Fork was less than half a mile from where I llved my last three years there..
Things got a LOT more difficult when Terra came along……..
Oh, and also skiing on Shultz Pass Road before people (myself included) were even driving on it much.
I actually had to look at a map to orient myself regarding the fire, because everybody’s descriptions of it didn’t ring any bells for me.
Oh, and another (ahem related) story I haven’t written about here, bcuz well you know (at least by now)……
I have a photo of my dad sitting on a log in horsethief meadow (where the jarosa fire burned) in the Pecos in about 1966, staring at a thunderstorm anvil over a pass we were planning to cross on horseback.
We didn’t cross the pass. Instead we went back around it the way we had come.
The next day we DID cross the pass, and there were trees next to the trail that had been exploded by lightning.
He told me that was the exact moment when, after 35 years of forecasting New Mexico weather, he couldn’t forecast a southwestern thunderstorm because they were WAY TOO COMPLICATED. He maintained that stance til the day he died.
And he flew typhoons in the Pacific in order to figure out the math to use to fly airplanes through hurricanes.
According to him, what you do with a southwestern thunderstorm is stay away from it and HUNKER DOWN!
Now you know why I haven’t told that story, except down here in a reply to you in a buried thread.
Actually. I’ve changed my mind. I’m gonna post this. To the top.
Marti – Thank you for the stories and your insights.
Yer seriously welcome, Gary!
Marti,
I sincerely appreciate your efforts in regards to this overall investigation.
Having said that, I think you are really wasting your time with the whole ICMA thing.
The Prescott Fire Department was putting out wildfires long before the GMH came along, and they will continue to do so in the future.
Your biggest misperception is that the ICMA product would include public involvement and an examination of strategic initiatives regarding wildfires.
That is not what the ICMA is about.
The ICMA (previously incarnated as the International City Managers Association) has long been known to be anti-employee (spending a lot of time and money engaged in union-busting endeavors).
Another function of the organization is that they have rosters of consultants that are quite good at providing any result desired by their new “employers”, AND making it look unbiased.
One would have to think, that any final product which didn’t produce a desired result, if repeated over time, would cause that consultant to be black-listed, so to speak. Let’s face it, the consultants want the work, and these managers who talk to each other all the time about how to get things accomplished, want a consultant who will do a “good job” for them.
You don’t have to read between the lines too much on that one.
So, the final product that you see with the ICMA report was no surprise, and pretty much their (the consultants) standard fare.
In addition, the fact that you can’t find detailed strategic wildfire planning information on the PFD website is no surprise, either. Government entities staff and equip as to what they can afford for the everyday occurrences they face. Whether a structural or wildland fire, you send what you’ve got, and if it gets too big, you start calling for help from your neighbors. That’s the way it’s been for eons, all over the country.
The bean-counters continuously evaluate and judge over time, whether or not, funding and leadership (read: planning) is adequate.
It’s not a situation where every fire department and police department in the country plans everything down to the gnats-ass and then publishes it on their website.
Believe me, if I thought anything could come from your investigation of this, I would be encouraging you. I just think you’ll find when it’s all said and done, you’ll wish you hadn’t wasted your time on this aspect.
FYI: When GMH was in quarters, or working locally in Prescott or adjoining areas, they were known as Crew 7. I’m not sure why that was, but perhaps while fighting a local fire, it enabled them to still remain available to respond as a national IHC resource.
There had been some speculation on here quite a while back that during those final chaotic moments at the YHF, that the terminology “Granite Mountain 7” may have been inadvertently used because of the fact they worked under the call-sign of “Crew 7” locally back home.
Thanks for this WTK!! I didn’t know those things you wrote about ICMA. Now that you say it, it makes sense.
My concern about public input and conversation is not, at least on some level, a misperception. Their report and all kinds of other assurances by them and the City Council DID reiterate that this report was the beginning of a discussion within the community.
It may very well be those assurances were just part of a big sales job on the part of both ICMA and the City Council. And maybe, in any other context or community, that piece of that whole sales job would likely have been overlooked.
However, in the context of Prescott and all the issues around this question about wildland fire-fighting going into the future, “selling” the community (including the fire-fighters etc) on a product with repeated assurances of “community involvement” and then basically stone-walling the community, as has been the case,
……….doesn’t seem to be a very good long-term strategy for getting the community’s buy-in.
And it isn’t working. A LOT of people are REALLY p**ssed off.
It kinda reminds me of what is going on here in Burque regarding our infamous police department, our infamous Department of Justice (wink wink nod nod) intervention, and the fact that the wool is not being very successfully pulled over everybody’s eyes and everybody is well aware of that and still fighting back.
So we shall see……….
I just wanted, for both myself and anybody else reading and interested in this, to create something of a “bigger room” to walk around in than what we have at this point.
Although I probably won’t go much further on it because, from HERE out, for me, it is, indeed a waste of time. Because it WASN’T a waste of time for me to go this far.
My interest is not limited to Prescott, nor to the Granite Mountain Hotshots. My interest is all around me right here in Central New Mexico. I’ve learned a lot of valuable things via this digging and all this conversation.
Regarding the websites. And the lack of documentation regarding wildland fire-fighting.
I think, (maybe, because, out here in our RED FLAG WARNING TODAY context, WUI and wildfire fighting — suppression/mitigation/prevention — increasingly are such a VERY BIG DEAL), that……
……….in fact, increasingly FD websites DO post, in some detail, what their wildland crews are all about, what their equipment is, and, NOT THE LEAST, what exactly their crews are and what it takes to qualify to get on one of those crews. And what kind of ongoing training is both supported and required.
Both people in these communities (and also, sometimes, tourists) and people looking for wildland fire work are VERY interested in being able to easily find out about this stuff. Maybe not in excruciating detail, but definitely the game is changing.
From my wanderings around trying to orient and educate myself, I would say the the PFD website is REALLY an anomaly in that department.
And when I say:
“And it isn’t working. A LOT of people are REALLY p**ssed off.”
That’s to the tune of what very well may be a successful campaign for Mayor by the previous and still VERY POPULAR Fire Department Chief.
We shall see…………..
And, I might add, the previous and still VERY POPULAR Fire Department Chief who was, himself STONEWALLED and OUSTED by this cabal.
My take on the people’s ire is that they are not concerned about the lack of public input or the operational aspects of the PFD.
They are just upset at how a well-liked chief was rail-roaded by the city manager, and that city manager’s piss-poor attempt at trying to justify it.
If Fraijo wins, it won’t have anything to do with a lack of community input or operational deficiencies, it will simply mean the voters are fed up with the “cabal at the hall”.
Regarding, either accepting community input, or providing departmental information output, bureaucracies have always been about bluff and bluster, and a lot of smoke-blowing.
That, also has existed for eons
Yikes. I just realized I “replied” to the wrong person.
I’m sorry about that.
I have to admit that, inside my head, sometimes, I get a little bit dyslexic over your two acronyms.
But that’s just my sloppy reading and thinking, which can either happen when I’m either waking-up-while-reading/writing or putting-myself-down-for-the-night-while-reading/writing, nothing else.
But, heck, we’re all the same, anyway, so there’s that…….
Actually I’ve NEVER tied you/WTKTT/anybody else together ever, unless I’ve done it by mistake.
And, also, I have to admit, making that mistake actually caused me to misread you a little bit.
I was actually thinking, “Well, GEE, WTKTT, how come it’s NOT a waste of time for YOU to go down rabbit-holes on a daily basis but it is for ME to do that?????”
LOL!!!
I’m now understanding where YOU are coming from regarding this particular issue. Which is a different place from where WTKTT and I are coming from.
I guess that PROVES we’re not all clones, after all!
You’re being more cynical about this particular thing than I am. Which is totally understandable.
I’ve spent enuff of my life interacting/fighting/negotiating with entrenched (and, from my experience, PATRIARCHAL) bureaucracies to completely be able to see the cya/smoke and mirrors culture of entrenched bureaucracies — so I get what you are saying.
I guess my problem is that, given my experience, I am not willing to just sit back and ACCEPT that.
Of course I’m not fighting this particular battle, I’m just trying to understand it and, thus, learn from it. it’s up to the good citizens of Prescott to step up to the plate on this one.
Maybe they will and maybe they won’t.
I’m not particularly convinced that the path being currently chosen is all that bad of a path, which I couldn’t determine until I dug into it more.
I’m also not particularly convinced, at this point, that it is all that wise of a path, either, all things considered. I guess time will tell.
But at least I have a clearer picture of what it actually IS. So there’s that.
I spent some time today looking into what Flagstaff is doing, after having said somewhere downstream that I figured they probably hadn’t decided to follow in Prescott’s foootsteps because they had 3 IHCs “in their pocket.”
I have, today, realized, that’s not the case. They didn’t decide they needed/wanted another IHC, but they didn’t just decide to sit back and rely on “their” USFS IHCs and a handful of otherwise-structural-firefighter-engine-crews-with-red-cards either.
The Flagstaff Fire Department has a dedicated Wildland Fire Management Program that is its own thing.
On their organizational chart, shown here………..
http://www.flagstaff.az.gov/DocumentCenter/View/45783
….it is on an equal status with Operations and Fire Prevention. In other words, much more like the Wildland Division under Prescott Fire Department before that Division was dissolved as a result of this “independent” study.
And it’s a VERY robust operation, with a skilled handcrew, for both prevention and suppression, a NUMBER of additional professional specialists, and a HOST of very interesting projects.
And Flagstaff, in around 2012-2013 (now I’m writing out of my head, not anything open to cite from), as either a result of sequestration or just comprehending that federal funding, grants, etc, were not going to be reliable, voted overwhelmingly in favor of a $10M Bond, to self-finance their own wildland fuels mitigation/wildlfire suppression program.
I’m SURE that was, at least partially, a result of the Schultz fire, which dramatically hit Flagstaff way more than anything has hit Prescott………………yet.
I don’t see Prescott at this point, much less as a result of this latest “independent” report, being even close to that level of concern/awareness/action.
And remember, as I have said, my major concern in looking at this thing is not Prescott, much less the Granite Mountain Hotshots.
My major concern is learning from this, these Lessons Learned……..
…..What now do we do?
Reply to Marti Reed post on April 6, 2015 at 7:03 pm
Marti… there is nothing ‘rabbit holey’ about what you have been diligently researching lately. The whole AZCENTRAL thing ‘popping’ in the middle of it all doesn’t diminish this ‘thread’ in any way.
We are actually still on a ‘long thread’ about “What happens now?” that was started by “Retired with 38” pretty far down.
It’s also related to the whole discussion about whether that Prescott ICMA report was ( as Willis believes ) ‘tampered with’… or ( as Jon Paladini has now asserted ) truly reflects the WISHES of the current Prescott Fire Chief and City Management.
Everyone seems to keep forgetting that REGARDLESS of what the ICMA report said or recommended… that’s all it was… a REPORT.
The Prescott City Council / Management was ( and still isn’t ) under ANY actual OBLIGATION to follow ANY of the recommendations at all.
The REPORT could have said “You people are so ‘in for it’ in the Wildland Fire arena that we not only recommend you reconstitute the GM Type 1 IHC… we recommend you build 2 more”….
…but Prescott Fire Chief Dennis Light could have still decided to do exactly what’s been done.
I still don’t know what Darrell Willis thought he was going to accomplish by spouting off about his own ‘conspiracy theories’ in his own resignation letter.
Did he really think that if it could simply be proven that some 3rd party outside Wildlland expert’s opinions ( Joe Stutler’s ) were supposed to survive totally word-for-word from a ‘first draft’ to a ‘final draft’ of a report that was costing Prescott $90,000?
Did he ( Does he? ) really think if even blatant ‘tampering’ can be proven that will automatically restore his $90,000 “Wildland Division” job and also magically reconstitute the ‘Granite Mountain Hotshots’?
It was Willis himself who was pressuring the shit out of Eric Marsh just 56 days before the tragedy because Willis ‘sensed’ that the City no longer saw the CVB ( Cost Versus Benefit ) of running a full Type 1 IHC out of the City garages… so who is to say that even without a tragedy in Yarnell the whole thing wouldn’t have been eliminated, anyway.
The concern over the whole ‘Indian Fire’ thing on the outskirts of Prescott is the ‘wave’ they had been riding for years. It was a ‘dress rehearsal’ that showed Prescott what COULD happen… and Willis and Steinbrink and Marsh ‘rode that wave’.
But that was YEARS ago.
And then came the “Great Recession”… which is actually STILL going on.
Prescott has forgotten… and/or is worried about other things ( like ongoing deficits that are crippling the City ).
They SHOULD do the “best they can” to be prepared for a Wildland fire disaster there.
WILL they do that?
It appears the current Fire Chief thinks they can handle what comes their way with his own NEW ‘plan’.
So be it.
I still wonder what Fraijo is going to do if he is elected Mayor come November of this year.
I don’t think Fraijo himself was even nearly as ‘gung ho’ on all the Wildland stuff as Willis was.
Fraijo might, himself, think that decisions Chief Light has made regarding ‘Wildland Preparedness’ in Prescott is a perfectly GOOD plan.
We will probably actually learn that BEFORE the November election.
I imagine it will actually be a ‘campaign’ issue and when Fraijo ‘hits the bricks’ and starts spending money and doing a REAL ‘campaign’ for the office of Mayor we might find out THEN exactly what HE will do… if elected.
Type up above.
Paragraph above should have read like this…
“The Prescott City Council / Management was NOT ( and still isn’t ) under ANY actual OBLIGATION to follow ANY of the ICMA recommendations at all”.
I must jump in on this topic of where does PFD go from here. Regardless of what “plan” or level of staffing they decide to go with (I personally like Gary O’s) it WILL cost them money. The City Council and the new Fire Chief must recognize there are dollars involved, whether they hire 4 or 40 it will have fiscal impact to the PFD – nobody rides for free!
Now, lets take the next step and hire no one. This too could cost money, if a fire should occur and burn numerous homes in Prescott those homes come off the tax revenues until rebuilt (at least that’s how it works in my area). So that could be a budget hit on monies that you have relied on for years. In addition, without maintaining your “Firewise” status you may loose out on grant opportunities.
I am not from Prescott, but it seems to me that THE biggest threat to the community is from wildland fire. With all the “cost share” requirements today, if I were Chief (new or old) I would certainly promote a proactive approach to reducing the interface threat to my community, both from an organizational and home owner perspective.
The bottom line is that there are a number of good alternatives to fuels mitigation without having to have a Type 1 crew, but you need to spend some money in a proactive manner and not just staff up and wait for the alarm to sound. Maybe using on duty engine companies is an option, but that will cost money too with workers comp claims!
Thanks, Retired with 38, and see what I wrote just above.
Along the lines of what it “will cost” if/when a major wildfire hits Prescott, since I’ve been looking at Flagstaff today, I read a report called “A Full Cost Accounting of the 2010 Shultz Fire”:
http://www.idahoforests.org/img/pdf/FullCostAccounting2010SchultzFire.pdf
What REALLY inflated the already high enough costs of the Schultz Fire was the huge DAMAGE incurred as a result of the FLOODING that happened after it.
I don’t see anything in the ICMA report that even BEGINS to consider THAT set of potential consequences.
Regarding “nobody rides for free,” EXACTLY!
After the Schultz Fire WAKE-UP CALL, the citizens of Flagstaff, in the midst of the consequences of the recession, thus potentially shrinking federal and grant dollars, decided they needed to dip into their own friggin’ pockets to invest in their own “Wildfire Insurance Policy” to the tune of a $10M Bond, which was overwhelmingly approved by the voters.
They had already, by then, set up their own “Wildland Fire Management Program” (see above) but they realized they needed to guarantee its existence, its capability, and its seriousness on, at least, some level, by paying for it THEMSELVES.
I.e. they realized they were actually STAKEHOLDERS in this.
(Having actually lived, myself, in the Flagstaff WUI for ten years, I understand that realization. I was feeling it in the late 1980s).
“Now, lets take the next step and hire no one. This too could cost money,”
That’s exactly what they have done.
Their “solution” is to hand it back to their existing PFD red-carded crews with their existing Brush Trucks (with all the “Structure vs Wildland Thinking” issues Gary has harped on and may have played a part in GM getting themselves killed).
While dissolving their Fuels Mitigation Crew and deciding to “contract that out.”
Which might, given how these things tend to go, cost them even more money. Obviously, they’re doing that because they don’t want to deal with the “liability issues.”
But what ever company they “outsource” this to has to deal with those exact “liability issues,” and, on top of that, MAKE A PROFIT.
“I am not from Prescott, but it seems to me that THE biggest threat to the community is from wildland fire. ”
Yes, it absolutely is, AND on top of it they are having serious and expensive WATER issues. But that’s a whole nuther, but not unrelated, issue.
“The bottom line is that there are a number of good alternatives to fuels mitigation without having to have a Type 1 crew, but you need to spend some money in a proactive manner and not just staff up and wait for the alarm to sound.”
Yeppers!!
“or level of staffing they decide to go with (I personally like Gary O’s)”
I really like Gary O’s idea also, AND I really like Flagstaff’s, also.
Gary’s idea does it on the relatively affordable level, given Prescott’s current finances.
Flagstaff’s idea expands the coverage significantly, by also realizing, and taking local responsibility for, what a serious wildflre seriously hitting the city……..
…….ACTUALLY could COST because it DID.
And, to get another, more personal perspective on the Flagstaff Schultz Fire, which documents another, more intangible, but not less REAL set of consequences of what one of these kinds of wildfires can have on a WUI city………
You just have to read this heart-breaking (for me, i.e., someone who used to live there) account:
“The San Francisco Peaks will never be the same”
https://www.hcn.org/wotr/the-san-francisco-peaks-will-never-be-the-same
“Our mountain is burning in a fire that we hoped would never happen, a fire that has been hanging over our heads like the sword of Damocles. The heart of our mountain is blazing in an inferno that grew from 50 acres to 5,000 acres in 24 hours. As I write this, it has torched 14,000 acres — 27 square miles — and it is not yet contained.
Mountain-biking trails, homes for wildlife, favorite hiking places, springs and centuries-old trees — all damaged beyond belief. The San Francisco Peaks, the highest point in Arizona and the geologic feature that dominates the city of Flagstaff as well as all of Northern Arizona, have been altered beyond recognition in a matter of hours. Three-hundred-year-old ponderosa pines are exploding in orange flame. My neighbors take photographs of smoke that is now visible from space. We watch it all with tears in our eyes, but we watch. It’s the only action we can take, this hopeless inaction.”
And, regarding the Flagstaff decision to dig into their pockets to fund a $10M bond:
This is the story here:
“Sequester Guts Wildfire Prevention, Sets Up Bigger Blazes
…and leaves locals to pick up the tab.”
By Tim McDonnell, Friday May 24, 2013 via Mother Jones
http://www.motherjones.com/environment/2013/05/wildfire-prevention-flagstaff-arizona-sequester
“Tree coming down!”
Skyler Lofgren shouts above a din of buzzing chainsaws, leans into his own, and with a final heave topples another 40-foot Ponderosa pine. Lofgren, 27, a forest firefighting crew boss with Flagstaff, Arizona’s fire department, felled a dozen trees on Monday, overseeing an outdoor classroom for a new crop of seasonal recruits who will spend the summer patrolling the Coconino National Forest with three-foot chainsaws at the ready. The crew will fight wildfires when they come, but the vast majority of their time will be spent on prevention or, as Lofgren puts it, “working ourselves out of a job.”
In a stand of trees 10 minutes outside downtown Flagstaff—a tight cluster of low-slung brick buildings peppered with Route 66 paraphernalia—Lofgren and his fellow firefighters are hard at work on a new project that local officials say is the first of its kind in the nation. Funded by a $10 million bond that voters approved by a 3-1 margin in November, the program puts local tax dollars to work clearing trees and brush, and lighting carefully-managed fires, in an effort to stave off the devastating, astronomically expensive megafires that have become increasingly common in the West. If successful, the project could also untether the community from a withering federal firefighting budget.
So read this and take note………
………………….Prescott.
Marti,,
First , thank you for your commitment to this throughout your own personal challenges.
There are a few successful fuels mitigation programs in the west, but Flagstaff certainly establishes the bar with community and organizational support! They have educated the community and gained the financial backing needed to initiate the mitigation of the hazard – the overstocked fuels.
In my opinion the key to their success has been community education and involvement – which as you have noted is currently lacking in Prescott. If you want the program to succeed you need to educate and involve the community. I truly believe Flagstaff is a great example of that.
With all due respect to Flagstaff, I still believe there are advantages to having your own crew resource – whether that is a crew of 5 or 20 it’s a resource that can be utilized in multiple situations to compliment the “Districts resources” in emergency situations..
Kudos to the Board and the community for realizing the threat and taking the correct approach to fund the mitigation (whether internal or external) and reduce the threat. It’s the pay me now ( proactive ) or pay me later (reactive), and if you do some research you will find that the pay me now concept actually works. Numerous recent success stories have been published on the effectiveness of fuels treatment during wildland fires.
So to the City of Prescott, do your homework – you will pay one way or another so look at other programs that are successful in fuels mitigation and continue your mission from the early 2000’s of reducing the risk to your community. Spend some money, it’s important to your communities safety.
Thanks!!
You said:
“With all due respect to Flagstaff, I still believe there are advantages to having your own crew resource – whether that is a crew of 5 or 20 it’s a resource that can be utilized in multiple situations to compliment the “Districts resources” in emergency situations..”
That crew IS Flagstaff Fire Department’s own crew. It’s the one in the Wildland Fire Management “Division” (they don’t call these segments “Divisions,” but, as the organizational chart shows, Wildland Fire Management is at the same “level” as Operations and Fire Prevention).
I’m sure there’s some intense conversations going on behind the scenes about this.
I don’t have the pages open right now, so this is off the top of my head, but the Summit Fire Department Chief (Summit being just “north” of Flagstaff) was a founder of the Wildland Academy in Prescott and is still a MAJOR PLAYER there.
Summit FD is a part of a grouping of FDs up there “in” Flagstaff that have a combined wildland program that has ANOTHER really great uber-Type 2 IA/Fuels crew. They actually train to Type 1 IHC standards. “Bear Claw.”
I’m kind of thinking, all things considered, that when Prescott’s Wildland Division decided to go in the direction of creating their own IHC, it was a double-edged sword in a number of ways.
It became the city’s “holy grail,” if you will, that diminished their options, along with the city’s/citizens’ OWNERSHIP of their situation, and, thus creative thinking about it.
Prescott has done A WHOLE LOT on the prevention side (more than I think the current ICMA influenced almost-plan is going to be able to sustain) …
…but where they’re currently at regarding the suppression side is, I think, woefully inadequate.
That little thunderstorm cell up there to the northeast of Yarnell that turned that fire around “beyond our expectations” on June 30, 2013, also brought something like 20 lightning-ignited wildfire starts to Prescott.
That’s a story you don’t hear, as it was eclipsed by Yarnell.
Hey Marti,
Here is another proactive District (although they haven’t secured the funding of Flagstaff) – check them out at http://www.nltfpd.net
Reply to Marti Reed post on April 4, 2015 at 9:44 pm
>> Marti said…
>>
>> My point in all of this is that it behooves us to remember that Arizona Department
>> of Forestry has a HUGE VESTED INTEREST RIGHT NOW in divesting themselves
>> (no matter what they have to do in order to do that) of any kind of remote
>> responsibility regarding their mismanagement of this entire fire and any
>> kind of danger they (by either sins of commission or omission) put the
>> fire-fighters on that fire into.
Yes… they do… but at this very moment in time their BEST chance to ‘divest themselves’ of ALL of this is to SETTLE both the “Arizona Forestry vs. ADOSH” thing ( and prevent it from going to a full ALJ Hearing ) and the “Wrongful Death” lawsuits ( to prevent THEM from going to a full JURY Trial ).
And that is EXACTLY what ( according to public documents ) they ARE doing at this moment.
When they asked for a 30 day extension to the ‘calendar freeze’ on the ‘wrongful death’ suits back on March 9… the Judge didn’t get around to granting it until March 17… so Arizona Forestry only has 12 more days to “get ‘er dun”. ( Until April 17 ).
I would NOT want to be any of the Arizona Forestry lawyers if they do NOT find a way to ‘settle’ all this outside of a courtroom and away from a no-shit JURY.
So am I the only one who is suspecting that the REASON a lot of stuff is suddenly ‘popping’ here is BECAUSE of THAT looming deadline?
From what we can tell… Arizona Forestry FAILED to reach an adequate settlement with the plaintiffs during the two day March 2,3 ‘mediation’ session(s).
Between additional documents filed the following week in the ALJ Hearing File and some PUBLIC comments made by one of the wrongful death plaintiffs herself ( Deborah Pfingston, Andrew Ashcraft’s mother ) it seems pretty obvious that the reason more TIME was being asked for is because the plaintiffs ARE ‘sticking to their guns’ and they want what they have always said they wanted in the actual ‘wrongful death’ case filings.
The TRUTH, transparency, accountability and CHANGE.
The ‘extension for ‘more negotiating’ WAS granted’… and now suddenly ( just in the last 10 days ) we are seeing all of the following…
** ( INDUSTRY ) CHANGE(S)…
Out of nowhere ( only 7 days ago ) the U.S. Forestry Service issues a National press release saying they ARE working on a new fire shelter design and they are now ‘upping’ the planned completion of that project the end of 2016… one year EARLIER than they originally planned.
That ‘press release’ also says they are now testing ‘new materials’ from ELEVEN different manufacturers… but cannot disclose the names of either the companies or the materials because of ‘non-disclosure’ agreements.
And ‘lo and behold’… who is CHARGE of that ‘speeded-up’ redesign?
None other than Tony Petrilli… the ‘fire shelter’ expert for the Yarnell Hill SAIT.
Travis Turbyfill’s father ( David Turbyfill ) has said this is HIS ‘primary’ goal in the category of CHANGE as requested in the common ‘wronful death’ filing(s). He has even been doing how own design ( he is an engineer ) and has posted public YouTube videos of the superior materials HE has been testing.
Petrilli wouldn’t name any of the ‘materials’ HE is looking at… but Petrilli did just give some ‘target numbers’ as far as heat transfer and survivablilty goes with some of the testing already done.
More ‘lo and behold’… some of THOSE numbers actually MATCH what David Turbyfill’s own testing has been showing for various materials.
So I could easily picture something like the following exchange happening sometime recently in the ‘mediation’ with the ‘wrongful death’ plaintiffs…
———————————————————————-
Arizona Forestry lawyers: As far as this CHANGE thing on your ‘list of demands’ goes… we heard that the U.S.Forestry Service is looking into designing a new fire shelter.
Attorney for the plantiffs: Prove it.
Arizona Foresty lawyers: How would you like us to do that?
Attorney for the plaintiffs: For starters… a National Press release from the U.S. Forestry Service that SAYS that is going to happen. Then we will agree to finalize our demands to make SURE it’s going to happen.
Arizona Forestry laywers: Okay. We’ll make some calls tomorrow.
Attorney for the plaintiffs: Make the calls TODAY.
———————————————————————-
And on they go to the NEXT item on the ‘mediation’ agenda.
Sure enough… just 7 days ago and right in the middle of this ‘mediation’… here comes a ‘National Press’ release ( out of nowhere ) from the U.S. Forestry Service talking all about the ‘new fire shelter’ they are designing and the ‘sped-up’ development times.
Coincidence?
** TRUTH / TRANSPARENCY
All of a sudden ( and also in the middle of this ‘mediation’ ) AZCENTRAL suddenly decides to interview Prescott City Attorney Jon Paladini and all of sudden Paladini thinks it is OK to reveal what HE has been keeping a ‘secret’ for MONTHS?
It truly IS a head-scratcher WHY Paladini would suddenly be willing to ‘spill his guts’ like he did for that AZCENTRAL article… especially since HE was the one who was supposedly the initial ‘liason’ between Arizona Forestry lawyers and Brendan for the ‘under-oath’ deposition.
It is almost as if someone called him on the phone, told him AZCENTRAL was going to be calling him… and they finally gave him PERMISSION to ‘say what he knows’…. or something.
Could word have gotten back to the ‘wrongful death’ plaintiffs that Brendan McDonough might now have no intentions of submitting to a pre-trial ‘deposition’ of any kind ( on the advice of his new criminal defense attorney ) and THAT is why his scheduled February 26, 2015 deposition was cancelled and (supposedly) NOT re-scheduled yet?
Could that have triggered another conversation happening across the ‘mediation table’ right now that went something like this?…
———————————————————————-
Arizona Forestry lawyers: As far as this TRUTH thing goes on your ‘list of demands’… we don’t know WHAT it is going to take now to get Brendan McDonough to finally tell what he knows.
Attorney for the plantiffs: Then stop HIDING what you ALREADY know and release whatever information you DO have, in case he never does.
Arizona Foresty lawyers: How?
Attorney for the plaintiffs: Get some reporters to talk to all of those people who have supposedly already talked with Brendan and tell them to tell the reporters what they ALREADY know and then tell them to PUBLISH that information ASAP.
Arizona Forestry laywers: Okay. We’ll make some calls tomorrow.
Attorney for the plaintiffs: Make the calls TODAY.
———————————————————————-
** ACCOUNTABILITY
All of a sudden… in the MIDDLE of these ongoing ‘mediations’… we learn that OPS1 Todd Abel ( and his wife ) have been DISMISSED as ‘defendants’ in the ‘wrongful death’ lawsuits.
SIDENOTE: One of the reasons that ‘wives’ ( or husbands ) are usually included along with individual named defendants in a Civil action ( if that defendant is married ) is because of how easy it is for anyone to transfer all of their assets to their spouse’s name at the drop of a hat. The wives ( or husbands ) are usually also named just to make sure that a couple can’t easily ‘hide’ their assets to get out of paying judgements.
We also learn that OPS1 Todd Abel was dismissed ‘with prejudice’ which does NOT mean that he is being dropped as a defendant but someone thinks he still *might* have been involved in any negligence or wrongdoing. ‘With prejudice’ actually means he CANNOT be sued by anyone else for the same (alleged) incident. It’s akin to being granted ‘immunity from prosecution’ in the criminal arena.
So given THAT ‘piece of news’… here is even one more ‘conversation’ I could imagine took place during the ongoing ‘mediation’ last month…
———————————————————————
Arizona Forestry lawyers: Okay… regarding this ACCOUNTABILITY thing on your ‘list of demands’… I’m authorized to tell you that Arizona Forestry IS willing to ADMIT responsibility when the press releases are made regarding the ‘settlement’.
Attorney for the plantiffs: Okay. Good.
Arizona Foresty lawyers: However… only on ONE condition. You have to DROP OPS1 Todd Abel and his wife from your list of ‘defendants’… and it has to be a ‘Dismissal with Prejudice’ with regards to the Yarnell Hill Fire so he’s not out there hanging in the wind on this.
Attorney for the plaintiffs: Okay. Deal. We’ll make some calls tomorrow.
Arizona Forestry laywers: Make the calls TODAY.
———————————————————————-
Any ‘mediation’ in a complicated case like this is simply an ongoing ‘package’ that gets assembled… and it is NOT unusual for things like what have been happening lately to all of sudden start happening DURING the negotiations. These things amount to ‘demonstrations of good faith and intent’ for BOTH sides during the negotiations.
I could, of course, be totally wrong.
NONE of these things that have all seemed to be happening DURING this mysterious ‘mediation’ might have anything to do with either each other OR with the ‘mediation’ itself…
These things could all just be ‘coincidental’.
Even the OPS1 Abel being dropped as a ‘defendant’ in the middle of mediation…
…but the TIMING here on these things *could* indicate they ARE ‘related’ to what’s going on RIGHT NOW behind-closed-doors between the lawyers for Arizona Forestry and the lawyers for the ‘wrongful death’ plaintiffs.
We shall see.
The clock is still ‘ticking’ and the ‘little hand’ is about to catch up with the ‘big hand’.
The Fire Shelter is not the full answer here.
To build a Fire Shelter to withstand 2000 degrees for 30 min. and maintain a 7 pound weight
is still a long way off. my guess a oxygen bottle would as well be needed which adds considerable to the weight on the fire line.
The objective should always be to never get in a situation where a fire shelter was necessary
Or admit that people will always fail to follow safety fighting wild fire. and need to carry all kinds of fire safety equipment to the point they can not function on the line.
Reply to Bob Powers post on April 6, 2015 at 7:55 am
>> Bob Powers said…
>>
>> The Fire Shelter is not the full answer here.
Absolutely not. It’s just ONE of the things we can be pretty sure is on the plaintiff’s ‘list of demands’. David Turbyfill has made it his ‘mission’ to get some improvements there… and he’s not the only one of the ‘wrongful death’ plaintiffs who are ‘onboard’ with that as just ONE thing that should CHANGE.
I don’t know if the attorneys for the plaintiffs have actually already sat down with all the plaintiffs and/or independent industry consultants and come up with a comprehensive ‘List of Demands’ for the CHANGE category of all the ‘goals’ in their original ‘filings’… but it stands to reason they DID.
It would also stand to reason, then, that what has actually been happening since March 3 is that the attorneys are simply going through this LIST and ‘negotiating’ on the points.
The ‘Fire Shelter’ thing might have been just one of the ‘demands’ that they felt they could AGREE on… since U.S. Forestry really does seem to have started a research project already independent of the lawsuits.
It’s just a possibility that the ‘mediation’ and the timing of that U.S. Forestry press release are ‘related’… that’s all. Might be total coincidence as well.
>> Bob Powers also said…
>>
>> To build a Fire Shelter to withstand 2000 degrees for 30 min. and
>> maintain a 7 pound weight is still a long way off. my guess a
>> oxygen bottle would as well be needed which adds considerable
>> to the weight on the fire line.
Yes… but even David Turbyfill did some research on that and his own public videos show how far the ‘technology’ has come in that area in the last 10 years as well. There are ‘breather units’ for ‘avalanche survival’ that are lightweight, easily available online, and not even that expensive.
It would obviously be a HUGE leap for the U.S. Forestry Service ( which is generally a about a decade behind on technology, anyway ) to suddenly go from a simple ‘shake-and-bake-and-try-to-hold-your-breath-when-it-gets-god-awful’ design to an actual full-featured ‘rescue’ envelope design complete with breathable air…
…but it’s certainly time they at least did the RESEARCH on all that.
Tricky part ( I suppose ) is designing it so whatever container is holding the oxygen doesn’t ‘rupture’ or ‘explode’ all on its own.
Maybe the compromise would be to change the REQUIRED PPE to just some new higher-temp design… but the ‘breathable air’ solutions have been integrated into the design but remain OPTIONAL ( but allowable ) for field units.
The Human Body can tolerate more burn damage than you actually might believe… and your heart will stay beating… but without breathable air you’re not going to be around to even try and survive the burns.
It’s a fact that the more they add TIME to the ‘survivability estimate… the more important it is to move to an option where you don’t have to just ‘hold your breath’.
>> Bob Powers also said…
>>
>> The objective should always be to never get in a situation where
>> a fire shelter was necessary
Abso-frickin-lootely. No question.
I don’t know what CHANGES might be on the plaintiff’s ‘List of Demands’ in THAT part of the ‘Industry Change’ category… but I will bet there are any number of things they would like to see ‘change’ in THAT area as well.
MUCH better training? MORE checks on the ‘certification’ process to make sure certain personality types are ‘in check’ at all times? Don’t even allow a DIVS to communicate with his resources over a PRIVATE frequency so others can do interventions ( if needed ) during poor decision making? More restrictions on the use of cell phones for fire command intra-communication?
Something. “Lessons Learned” type stuff.
>> Bob Powers also said…
>>
>> Or admit that people will always fail to follow safety fighting wild
>> fire. and need to carry all kinds of fire safety equipment to the
>> point they can not function on the line.
Has anyone ever done a TEST to see how MUCH weight a WFF can carry and still be able to ‘function on the line’… and for HOW LONG at different ‘weight’ levels? Seems like that would be good to know.
Maybe the physical requirements will simply need to be ‘raised’ and being able to ‘function on the line’ at the new weight requirement becomes simply another TEST that has to be passed… or you don’t get the job.
They are pushing the limit now on weight and pack discomfort when using tools.
Put a forty pound pack on in 100 degree temps and swing an ax for an hour
Let me know how it works?
I think you can figure it out wit out doing that.
I think I’m about to ask a crazy question.
Actually… I’m sure of it.
I’m about to ask a crazy question.
WHERE did the REQUIREMENT come from that these guys/gals have to be dressed ( and functioning as ) PACK MULES pretty much EVERY MOMENT while they are actually ‘working’ and ‘cutting line’?
When you are ACTUALLY ‘cutting line’… and there is no immediate danger… why can’t you take your frickin’ pack OFF?
Of course it should be RIGHT THERE near you ( or no more than a few paces away )… but where did the REQUIREMENT come from that you have to WEAR the frickin’ thing EVERY MOMENT?
If something happens SO quickly that you can’t even take a few steps and pull your precious ‘fire shelter’ out of the bottom of your pack… then you probably don’t have the minimum 25 seconds to even use the damn thing, anyway, right?
Why is it absolutely VERBOTEN to take the pack OFF, at ANY time while you are actually just ‘swinging an axe’ or ‘scraping the ground’?
That’s exactly the same thought I had when I was looking at this today:
“Portraits of the 1973 “Burnt” Fire”
http://deliriousramblings.com/2014/01/26/the-1973-burnt-fire/
via “Delirious Ramblings” which is really an awesome Northern Arizona blog that explores a lot of Northern Arizona things, including its wildfires.
The photos in his exploration come from him camera-phone-photographing a bunch of microfilm images from a microfilm Flagstaff Daily Sun archive.
These photographs show fire-fighters hiking into and attacking this fire without any kind of packs on themselves.
I thought, WOW, that’s interesting!!!
I’m really curious about this.
I can see hauling a pack of some sort into the general vicinity of where you would be working.
But, to be perfectly honest, I am also having kind of a difficult time understanding, all things considered, the necessity of having it on you all the time when you’re working.
I’m sure the actually experienced fire-fighters here have some kind of explanation for this. And I would really be interested in “hearing” it.
PS This article is, in itself, a REALLY interesting reflection.
I’m still scratching my head about the timing.
I’m skeptical that the Fire Shelter thing is ALL THAT related to this recent revelation. The Turbyfills aren’t part of the suits. But who knows………
The Daily Courier still hasn’t broken this story, even though Wildfire Today has. Maybe there is a reason for that.
I’m still trying to contemplate the various pieces flying around.
Including the incredibly poorly done job on the part of the writers. Like I’ve said before, I’m SURE there was somebody there at AZCentral following this whole thing and reading all the stuff we were reading, and they didn’t just go OMG!!! and dive headlong into those documents at the last minute.
But maybe I’m wrong.
Cuz it sure looks like a last-minute hack job to me.
So that’s been the part of this that I’ve been wondering about in the back of my head this weekend.
What kind of pressure were THEY under, and from WHOM, especially given the distorted narrative regarding AZFire vs ADOSH.
And yes I did read what you wrote me in response to that down below. And I appreciate the correction. But STILL this article comes across to me as being unethically one-sided and manipulatively so, in regards to that months-long fight. And, generally speaking, their Yarnell coverage has been pretty accurate and well-researched for the most part all along.
Yvonne’s stuff has been high quality, but for the past six months she’s been busy covering the elections, the aftermatch of the elections, and the recent state legislative session. So, maybe she/they did scramble…
So, so far as the possibly-under-some-serious-pressure-from-somewhere timing of this story, so much so that they did an incredibly bad job of it, …………….
……………well, I’m still just trying to think things through. They’re all swirling around in my head, at this point.
Obviously, all these points are connected. I just haven’t managed, in my own head, to figure out which order they’re connected in.
One can only hope that the reason the Prescott Daily Courier hasn’t gone to press with their own article yet is because they are trying to turn the ‘hack job’ into a better piece of journalism.
( You can’t see ALL of my fingers and toes crossed here… but they are ).
If THEY can’t get Brendan to do an ‘on-camera’ interview as a result of this… or at least get some kind of coherent RESPONSE from him… I don’t know who else is going to be able to.
And that NEEDS to happen.
At the very least… the ‘followup’ to this story HAS to be some word about whether Brendan is EVER going to actually agree to be deposed and/or EVER going to talk about what he knows.
I just hope someone is watching Brendan pretty carefully at this point… and I mean someone who is close to him.
It would be a shame if something happened that would make the chance of ever hearing what Brendan really knows an absolute impossibility.
Reply to Marti Reed post on April 6, 2015 at 9:25 am
>> Marti said…
>>
>> I’m still scratching my head about the timing.
>> The Daily Courier still hasn’t broken this story, even though
>> Wildfire Today has. Maybe there is a reason for that.
One can ONLY hope the ‘reason’ is that they are trying to turn the ‘hack job’ that was released last Friday into a better piece of reporting.
What it NEEDS ( at a minimum ) is…
1) Clarification on whether the ‘story’ that Paladini is telling is SOLELY based on conversations with Darrell Willis… OR whether Paladini might have heard a few more significant details from Brendan himself ( or even others ) as he was acting as the official ‘mediator’ between Brendan and Arizona Forestry ( prior to Brendan retaining his own criminal counsel, Mr. David Shapiro ).
That would EXPLAIN why Precott City Attorney Jon Paladini ( a VERY accomplished and respected LAWYER ) says he is “standing by his story” even though Darrell Willis is now hemming and hawing and saying he doesn’t ‘recall’ saying some of the things that Paladini now says he ‘knows’.
Paladini could have been including details that really did NOT come from Darrell Willis initial conversation with him… but Paladini hear them later from either Brendan himself… or some other person who had ‘talked’ with Brendan.
2) WHO are the ‘other witnesses’ openly referred to in the article who were ALSO ( apparently ) interviewed for that article? If they are specifically CHOOSING to remain ‘anonymous’ and spoke only on a guarantee of that… then it needs to say that as well.
3) A COHERENT response from the person who is actually at the epi-center of the article… Brendan McDonough himself.
4) Even WITHOUT Brendan’s cooperation or comment… a good reporting on the attempts to depose him, what really happened with BOTH attempts, and where that stands NOW. Will there be another attempt at an ‘under-oath’ deposition… or not? Will it ONLY happen if the mediation fails and the ‘wrongful death’ cases are then going to TRIAL… but the last thing Brendan wants is to ever have to be on a ‘witness stand’… so they will ‘negotiate’ for another ‘private deposition’?
ALL of the above are now PARTS OF THE STORY that was NOT reported on Friday.
>> Marti also said…
>>
>> I’m skeptical that the Fire Shelter thing is ALL THAT related
>> to this recent revelation.
So am I, actually… but I felt I needed to include in the list of “things that have POPPED” just in the last 10 days… DURING this whole secret ‘mediation’ thing.
Because it MIGHT be related. Might NOT.
>> Marti also said…
>>
>> The Turbyfills aren’t part of the suits.
You are right. The PARENTS aren’t… but Travis’ WIFE is.
Thank you for correcting me.
It is Stephanie Turbyfill ( Travis’ wife ) who is one of the listed plaintiff’s in the ‘wrongful death’ lawsuits… and NOT David Turbyfill ( Travis’ father ).
AZREPUBLIC
Article Title: Yarnell Hill Fire: 12 hotshot families sue state
Published 4:51 p.m. MST June 27, 2014
http://www.azcentral.com/story/news/arizona/2014/06/27/yarnell-hill-fire-12-hotshot-families-sue-state/11525623/
From the article…
——————————————————————————-
The listed plaintiffs in the case are: Juliann Ashcraft, wife of Andrew Ashcraft; Claire Caldwell, wife of Robert Caldwell; Krista Carter, wife of Travis Carter; Michael MacKenzie, father of Christopher MacKenzie; Grant McKee, father of Grant McKee Jr.; Daniel Parker, father of Wade Parker; John Percin, father of John Percin; Desiree Steed, wife of Jesse Steed; Stephanie Turbyfill, wife of Travis Turbyfill; Roxanne Warneke, wife of William Warneke; Carl Whitted, father of Clayton Whitted; and Joseph Woyjeck, father of Kevin.
——————————————————————————–
Something tells me, though, that given the hard work Travis’ FATHER has been doing for over a year on the ‘improved fire shelter’… Stephanie Turbyfill probably has that on HER list of ‘INDUSTRY CHANGES’ being demanded by the ‘plaintiffs’.
Any number of the other ‘plaintiffs’ are probably firmly on board with that as well.
You wrote:
“Arizona Forestry lawyers: As far as this TRUTH thing goes on your ‘list of demands’… we don’t know WHAT it is going to take now to get Brendan McDonough to finally tell what he knows.
Attorney for the plantiffs: Then stop HIDING what you ALREADY know and release whatever information you DO have, in case he never does.
Arizona Foresty lawyers: How?
Attorney for the plaintiffs: Get some reporters to talk to all of those people who have supposedly already talked with Brendan and tell them to tell the reporters what they ALREADY know and then tell them to PUBLISH that information ASAP.
Arizona Forestry laywers: Okay. We’ll make some calls tomorrow.
Attorney for the plaintiffs: Make the calls TODAY.”
—————–
However much I’m not convinced the Fire Shelters deal is connected to this thing………
I DO think what you wrote here makes some sense.
AZFire is freaking out becuz they don’t have a “Brendan said” story (to fill in a clarify and substantiate the already swirling around everywhere stories and rumors regarding what he heard and knows) to head into the last-ditch-minutes of the so-far FAILED mediation negotiations.
And their lawyers are pretty much saying what you say they are saying to the plaintiffs lawyers.
And the conversation proceeds pretty much like what you are saying.
That makes a lot of sense.
Even though even this “revelation” doesn’t, as has been hashed out below downstream, completely get AZFire off the hook. It just adds Eric/Jesse TO the hook.
Which might be the best they can come up with at the moment. It better fits the bill of the “We want the facts, the TRUE facts” demand than what, at this point, exists.
(And I’m still factoring into this, in my mind, the whole “video that records the argument” thingy. Which, so far, hasn’t been released, unless the videos they DID release (wink wink nod nod) are connected, in some way, to THAT video (wink wink nod nod).
The only thing I would edit in your narrative is this:
“Get some reporters to talk to all of those people who have supposedly already talked with Brendan and tell them to tell the reporters what they ALREADY know and then tell them to PUBLISH that information ASAP.”
I would write it more like:
“Get some reporters to talk to all of those people who have supposedly already talked with Brendan and tell them to tell the reporters what they ALREADY know and then tell them to PUBLISH that information ASAP.
Lawyers for AZFire: It might be really difficult to get those reporters to do all of that in the time we have at hand.
Lawyers for the Plaintiffs: Well, looks like you might have to find a way to put some PRESSURE on them to get this done ASAP. So we’ll even help out and give you THIS LIST of people for them to “interview” ASAP. Come on guys, you know EXACTLY how to throw your weight around to get your story out there!”
Or maybe the Lawyers for the Plaintiffs didn’t need to take the time to make the list. AZFire already KNEW who they wanted on THAT LIST.
And the Lawyers for AZFire walk out of the meeting and into AZFire, high-fiving, and patting everybody on the back, saying, “No problem, boys, we’ve GOT THIS!”
Except, maybe for the possibility that maybe, as this plays out,……………
Maybe they haven’t, just all that easy, GOT THIS.
Who knows???????
*buys more popcorn*
There is every chance in the world that the Arizona Forestry lawyers themselves are now so frustrated with Brendan McDonough and his bullshit games and private agendas that they do not give a rat’s ass how anything they do now affects him in any way.
Maybe they thought ( since they still have 11 days left in their negotiations with the plaintiffs ) that making some phone calls and giving people like Jon Paladin PERMISSION to ‘tell it all’ to the PRESS would actually cause someone ( anyone? ) to get this McDonough guy to POP and just tell the frickin’ PRESS what he does ( or doesn’t ) know.
That actually MIGHT be what is happening, following Friday’s article.
The Prescott Daily Courier might be ‘holding’ on their own version of this ‘story’ because that is exactly what they are trying to do RIGHT NOW.
Convince Brendan to ‘come clean’ in an on-camera-exclusive interview with THEM.
I hope he does it.
There will be MANY who will say that since he isn’t ‘under-oath’ you really can’t believe a word coming out of his mouth in that kind of ‘on-camera’ thing… but that is neither here nor there.
That’s because there are also MANY who won’t even believe what this guy is saying if he IS ‘deposed’ and puts his hands on tall stacks of books about every faith system on the planet.
Either way… he is going to be called a LIAR by some… so he might as well ‘get it over with’ sooner rather than later.
And while I am at it, I want to say a few things about Jesse Steed. Steed could have technically refused Marsh’s direct order to take his crew down into that smoky cauldron of fire in that valley of death, but there is no such thing as a former hotshot, just like there is no such thing as a former Marine. And any hotshot knows Steed was not really acting as the Granite Mountain Hotshot Crew Boss since he was stepping into the job behind Eric Marsh and Marsh was the Division Boss and to make matters worse, the GMHS were the only crew on Division A under Marsh. For all practical intents and purposes, Steed was still in his role as assistant crew boss under Marsh when the decision was made to leave the black.
And I don’t believe for one minute it was about Steed worrying about pissing Marsh off so that when Marsh moved up the ladder, Steed would get the crew boss job. I picked up some where along the way there may have been some friction between Marsh and Steed, possibly because the crew responded so well to Steed and called him their Greek God and Steed’s Dojo etc. for their weight room.
And I did a lot of push back against Elizabeth’s contention that a hotshot crew is some kind of democracy where crew member’s opinions are sought after, listened to and valued, but that does not happen. There wasn’t anybody on that crew who was in a position to go down into that valley. Yes, for one thing, most of them did not even know why they were going there or where they were going unless they were standing close enough and overheard snatches of the radio conversations between Steed and Marsh.
Steed and the rest of the Granite Mountain Hotshots were following their crew bosses orders, period…because they were hotshots and that is what hotshots do. In addition to that, Steed and several others on the crew were Marines, and that’s what Marines do.
That is the way the system works. That is the way the system has to work. That is how hotshots stay alive and get the job done on almost every fire since hotshots were created by the fire gods (except for the Loop Fire, the Battlement Creek Fire, the South Canyon Fire and now the Yarnell Hill Fire).
Yes…those were notable exceptions, but the system has worked on tens of thousands of fires where no hotshots died. You have to go with the law of averages. Put the best people you have in charge and then everybody relies on them to make life and death slit second decisions in the best interest of the crew and getting the job done.
It has to be that way or the entire system would break down on a regular and reoccurring basis and a lot more hotshots would die. Steed did his job as assistant crew boss, he made his concerns and objections known to the crew boss AND THEN HE FOLLOWED HIS ORDERS, JUST LIKE HE WAS SUPPOSED TO, and unfortunately…and that is an understatement, that time those orders were based on a very flawed decision making process…but that doesn’t make Steed and the others wrong in any way. The crew bosses plan should have worked…and it almost always does. But when it doesn’t…the results can be catastrophic.
I want to repeat what I something I said on this thread a long time ago. When a hotshot crew boss say’s it’s Easter…his hotshot crew immediately starts looking for Easter eggs, regardless of what day it actually is. That is how the system has to work or everything will fall apart all of the time, instead of just some of time. Which is probably a really hard thing for the families of the Granite Mountain Hotshots to hear because this time it fell apart in a terrible way…I’m sorry for your loss.
I meant to say, “There wasn’t anybody on that crew who was in a position NOT to go down into that valley.
So all this talk about the “turn down” is just talk, or it was written just for the crew boss to use, or what?
Everyone comes home, except in cases where the crew boss has lost his mind?
This is not the military, except it is?
I’m so confused.
No. You have it. The only reason you are confused is because the people who have to actually WORK in this more-than-pseudo-military environment for peanuts and no benefits are pretty confused, too.
They carry a book in their pockets that has the official TDWAO ( Turn Down With Alternate Option ) policy printed in big black ink.
They hear ( at Wildfire Academies and stuff ) that they are NEVER supposed to suffer reprisals for EXERCISING that policy… even if they are the ONLY ones who can see something terribly wrong and no one else does.
But then the Co-leader of the SAIT investigation ( and a high level official in the U.S. Forestry Department itself ) gets up in PUBLIC and says that anyone who EVER chooses to ‘run’ to try and save their own life rather than lie down and burn to death in aluminum baking foil is derisively referred to as a RABBIT.
So if you think YOU are confused… try being an actual Hotshot.
Darrell Willis told ADOSH the reason WHY Eric Marsh fired the previous GM Caption ( who was replaced by Jesse Steed ).
It was over Hotel points being accumulated on his credit card, even when the City of Prescott didn’t even HAVE an account or card set up whereby they City of Prescott could earn ‘Hotel Points’.
Because of THAT one, stupid, silly thing… Marsh told Willis he could no longer ‘trust’ him and he won’t work with anyone he doesn’t trust.
So if ANYONE things that wasn’t a ‘job threatening’ moment for Captain Jesse Steed when he DARED to disagree with Eric Marsh over the radio on June 30, 2013… think again.
Even though he finally agreed to ‘take the risk’ ( and thereby committed his OWN negligence as a supervisor that day )… Steed might still have been wondering all the way down how he was going to tell his wife that he had already probably just lost his chance at ever becoming GMIHCS ( at the least ) or had probably already just lost his job with the Prescott Fire Department ( at the worst ).
If the ‘wrongful death’ suits DO end up going to trial, however, the cards are already dealt as to how both sets of attorneys will need to ‘play’ the decison making process.
The Arizona Forestry attorneys will be spewing the same kind of bullshit that our own ‘counselor’ continues to do here on this forum. It will be full of “other people would have done the same thing so it can’t be considered negligence” crap or “if they took the walk that means they automatically didn’t think they were in any danger” horse manure.
The plaintiff’s attorneys will be focusing on the whole ‘more-than-psuedo military’ style culture and the fear of ‘consequences’ ( even though there aren’t supposed to be any ) for ‘disobeying a direct order’.
The JURY ( who will be non-firefighters ) will be the ones to decide whether knowingly risking the lives of others because you are afraid to lose your job ( on BOTH Marsh’s and Steed’s part ) is ‘gross negligence’…. or not.
This SO reminds me of the whole South Canyon Anniversary “Let’s all talk about stuff” PR campaign the USFS threw out there last early summer. With the awesome video and all.
While Brian Frisby and the Blue Ridge Hotshots were heading into wildfire season still under a GAG ORDER that they’re STILL UNDER.
And Brian’s mom describing the PTSD that Brian was in BECAUSE OF THAT, while heading a crew that was FIGHTING WILDFIRES.
Oh yeah, USFS, tell me all about how SAFETY FIRST is the FIRST priority.
You betcha!!!!!!!
With any luck… someone who is doing ‘followup’ reporting on Friday’s AZCENTRAL article will drive to Prescott Station 7 TODAY ( Monday ) and ask to speak with former BR Hotshot Ronald Gamble.
I don’t think he was one of the three BR Hotshots that was helping to move the GM Carriers ( since his own YARNELL-GAMBLE video shows him sitting in the driver’s seat of one of the BR Carriers… and not one of the GM Carriers )… but I will bet a fin to a sawbuck Ronald Gamble also knows more than he has ever either ‘told’ OR even been ‘asked’.
If FORMER U.S. Forestry (temporary) employee Ronald Gamble himself actually says “I’m still under orders not to talk about Yarnell”… THAT, itself, is another STORY unto itself that needs to be pursued and published.
Not to mention whatever else Ronnie Gamble may have (WINK WINK COUGH COUGH)
heard.
Mike,
Again, Google heuristics. Then think about a simple hiking group, which is not intended to be death-defying.. Particularly once that group gets above 5, you have 1 or 2 leaders appointed, informally or formally, and unless they are asking people to play Russian Roulette they generally are deferred to. Many hiking accidents happen exactly this way, even though group members may all be experienced and even though many may with hindsight admit to some concern over a decision to, for instance, bushwhack.
Add work as a factor. Add a group of people used over a period of years to who the leaders are and who the followers are. Add a culture where being wimpy is more a liability than it would be in an office job. Given that, it is not at all surprising that everyone deferred to the leaders of the group.
And again, go back to Dudley’s video and his disdain for “rabbits.”
SR –
I understand your point when it comes to much of the crew. But Jesse Steed was an experienced hotshot being groomed to be a crew super. From all accounts, he was highly respected by the crew. He apparently was highly bothered by what Marsh wanted him to do – so much so he got into an argument presumably heard by other crew members. He was the acting super of the GMHS – the safety of those men around him was his direct responsibility. It is never good when the crew overhead gets into a fight, especially in front of the crew, and it should be avoided as much as possible. But in matters of safety, sometimes it is impossible to avoid an ugly situation. The idea that someone like Jesse Steed had to acquiesce to an order he felt was dangerous is dangerous in of itself, This is not the military – people like Marsh do not have the right to order people to die, or even to take outsized risks. All this preaching about situational awareness – why bother if the crew boss is going to do all the thinking. I wish Jesse Steed had said “hell, no”. Maybe he would have lost his job, maybe not. But 19 men, including Eric Marsh, would be alive.
I really appreciate your writing this.
And it’s related to my saying that Shakespeare could have written this fire.
Seriously.
There’s this machine. And there are these people. And, when push comes to shove, this machine lives on. No matter what happens to these people.
This machine brands itself with a cheap Logo that says, “Safety First.”
And yet, all we are seeing is the direct opposite of that.
This machine says in all of its PR that YOU the individual fire-fighter have both the freedom and RESPONSIBILITY to say No.
I saw that today on the “Wildland Fire Leadership” website.
From their Friday, March 27, 2015 posting:
“Do You Have the Courage to Choose the Difficult Right?”
http://wildlandfireleadership.blogspot.com/2015/03/do-you-have-courage-to-choose-difficult.html
“Choosing the difficult right over the easy wrong takes a lot of courage. However, research shows that “situational pressure leads to ethical fading.” Good leaders must have the moral courage to do the right thing in challenging situations.”
And, on the other hand we have the obvious reality that Gary Olson et al have described that, in fact, in this USFS-driven culture, countering one’s superiors is, in most cases, grounds for, at the least serious derision, and, at the most, grounds for losing your job and your career.
This kind of dove-tails into what I wrote to TTWARE, that I understood his cynicism but, as someone who had to both understand and fight with the PATRIARCHAL bureaucratic institutions I had to deal with (for 35 years), I couldn’t just sit back and accept all the BS they were putting up.
There is really a HUGE cognitive dissonance here.
The fact that Jesse Steed perceived (whether it was while they were sitting in the safe black or whether it was at the saddle above the explosively fuel-fillled chimney-bowl) that moving from a relatively safe place into a relatively seriously dangerous place………
…….and could have been over-ridden by this whole SYSTEM……
……….and that Gary and WTKTT et al are saying that, all things considered (given the way this whole SYSTEM works) that’s the nature of these things………
…….especially given the whole entire mismanagement of this fire………..
…………….SHOUTS to me that there is a HUGE problem with this whole system that needs to be………..
…………AHEM
………..ADDRESSED.
Along with a whole bunch of other things, which I have written ad nauseum about.
I keep saying LOOK UP!!!
I have said that about this entire fire.
You are saying that about this entire system.
And I totally agree.
The evidence provided here that Jesse Steed couldn’t say “no” is in my opinion, an indictment against this whole entire system.
And I totally get that there are serious reasons why the machinery needs to work, for the most part, in a way such that when orders need to be obeyed they need to be obeyed.
When I was raising my daughter, my general policy was that I wanted her input into all of our decisions, in the interest and value of the reasons for democracy.
But there were exceptions to that. The exceptions came when there was time-pressure to make decisions as quickly and efficiently and cost-effectively as possible. So I get all of that.
HOWEVER.
It seems to me that when an Assistant Superintendent of a friggin’ Federal Interagency Hotshot Crew (with all that that entails regarding creds and experience) senses that what he is being asked to lead that Crew into is possibly seriously dangerous, how can it be just accepted to be OK that he just has to “get along to go along” when that whole way of thinking leads to him and his crew and his superior getting themselves killed?????
Something really needs to give here.
P.S. And after 32 years in resource land management in the southwest working for the Prescott, the Coconino and the Santa Fe National Forests in addition to the BLM New Mexico State Office, the BLM Arizona State Office and the BLM Washington Office of Law Enforcement & Security (in Prescott, Flagstaff, Santa Fe, Phoenix, Albuquerque, Farmington and back to Phoenix) retiring as a Senior Special Agent, Supervisory Criminal Investigator. EVERYBODY THAT IS ANYBODY in resource management in the southwest knows me or knows about me. Especially since I continued with my interest in wildfire even after moving into law enforcement as the Chief Law Enforcement Officer on the Santa Fe National Forest by becoming a certified Wildland Arson Investigator.
And FYI, I have far more enemies and detractors than I do friends or supporters…it went with the job descriptions I had, nobody ever paid me to make friends and build a long Christmas card list. I’m sure if you look you could find plenty of oppo research on me…in fact, I am a little surprised none has been volunteered yet (at least that I know of). I am not afraid to let my resume speak for me and if somebody doesn’t like it, they can kiss my ass. This thread isn’t about making friends either…it’s about finding out why 19 Granite Mountain Hotshots…my brothers…died very horrific and untimely deaths.
I forgot to ask you do you know Chuck Mook, A really old friend of mine from the Angeles NF
He was FS Law Enforcement out of Phoenix.
Yes, but I knew him as Charlie, worked a lot of ARPA cases. Charlie was the Zone Special Agent (Tonto, Prescott, Coronado National Forests) out of Phoenix while I was the Chief LEO on the Santa Fe but I worked with him on some region wide marijuana eradication and border ops. Good guy…died of a heart attack and ran his G ride through a restaurant with a big plate glass window about McDowell Street and 16th Street in Phoenix if I remember right. If I don’t remember right…that’s OK, there’s a lot of stories floating around inside my head. And some people say they get better every time I tell them!
Dam Did not know that the last time I saw him was the Late 80s. When we were down visiting My Mom and Dad in sun city. (Dad as in Step Father)
He also was A hot Shot From the Redding Hot Shots the Year they Lost 4 In a Helicopter Crash he was one of the Squad bosses on a Year detail.
Thanks
I didn’t even know Charlie was a hotshot. Yes, and he wasn’t that old, I want to say early 50’s. It was a long time ago.
Yes he was about 2 years younger than me so would have been 50
in 96 or so.
We spent 3 years working on adjoining Patrol units and three winters
going for a week to Northern California Goose and Duck Hunting,
Then a it seems in the FS we transferred to different areas and lost contact. He was a great guy. thanks for the info
Elizabeth – I am getting backlogged on my arguments with you, it’s a good thing I am retired. I will work on a detailed response but in the meantime, no…I did not say you were defending Daryl Willis I was just pointing out that NOBODY has defended Daryl Willis that I know of, which I find really strange, there should be dozens if not hundreds. I’m sure that fact has left a very bitter taste in his mouth, he thought he had more friends.
OK…you got me. I did not specifically say Fred was a squared away firefighter and a good crew boss, but I thought I did since that is what I think of him and I am saying it now, although I don’t like to say bad things about any former hotshot, even though I disagree with them on some things. You see…I know what it takes to be a hotshot and anybody who had been there and done that is OK in my book (except for maybe that little shit Brendan…I am starting to have my doubts about him) that is why I am having such a hard time being critical of Eric Marsh and why I have tried so hard to excuse what happened.
Here are the emails I have on file regarding Fred…if you have others, please feel free to post them. And by the way, saying he is really fucking smart and lasted a long time as a hotshot crew boss in an agency and a business where they eat their young and kill off the sick and wounded…is the same thing as saying he was a squared away wildland firefighter and a good hotshot crew boss.
FYI – Pertinent email excerpts regarding Fred:
Yes, I know him, he is the former Payson Hotshot Crew Boss. I will read your email in detail and then send another reply. The most interesting thing I know about him is that he learned how to speak and write Navajo, which as you may or may not know is a really, really, really, hard thing to do.
Oh, and one more thing, Fred has got to be retired now, I think he is more my age. Maybe he is still going out as a pick-up overhead, like Roy Hall and Paul Musser was doing for the state. Fred was really into being a hotshot for a really long time, although he may have ended up as an AFMO or FMO, but I don’t think he ever left the Tonto National Forest and maybe didn’t even leave Payson.
P.S., my guess about who RTS to you is was right on the money except he is older than I thought he was. The northern boundaries of the Tonto N.F. are up against the southern end of the Prescott N.F. in many places. And Fred is really connected to the hotshot world, much more so than I was, especially since I left Arizona in 1981 and the USFS in 1988.
FYI…Fred and were not friends, but our circles overlapped a few times on fires for brief conversations although I can’t remember any right now. It is more like we knew about each other because of our positions. I’m pretty sure he was a crew boss for me and I am sure he was a crew boss long, long, after I was. The hotshot crew boss job wasn’t as far advanced back in my day as it is now. Back then they just treated us like mushrooms for the most part.
Gary— he also worked for me his first year 1973 Oak Grove Hot Shots.
right on, and by they treated us like mushrooms, they fed us bullshit and kept us in the dark or on an airport tarmac, in a high school gym or in a National Guard Armory going from Point A to Point B to fight fire. I think the hotshot crew boss job is a lot more advanced than it was in my day, I think they actually ask those guy’s about what they think once in a while. Can you imagine that?
When you need to know we’ll let you know—-
Fred Schoeffler? I remember Fred from the old days when we were both hotshot crew bosses on neighboring forests where our districts butted up against each other. I remember Fred as a squared away wildland firefighter who was a good hotshot crew boss.
In fact, that is EXACTLY what I told Elizabeth more than a year ago in an email when she emailed me and asked if I knew Fred and what I thought of him if I did? I wonder how much other favorable information Elizabeth is withholding from us while she tries to dish up dirt on a guy who has been there and made it back again to talk about it from her stable of anonymous or semi-anonymous informants?
I think Elizabeth should look up “exculpatory evidence” in one of her law books, or in case that is too much trouble, here is a quick definition from Wikipedia, which is normally good enough for government work.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exculpatory_evidence
This is what unethical attorneys withhold from the other side when they are trying to win an argument in an unethical manner which is against all of the rules attorney are supposed to govern themselves by.
FYI – Do any of you think it is strange that NOT ONE wildland firefighter (at least that I know about)has spoken up and either seconded or defended Daryl Willis’ outrageous claims regarding how hand crews should be used mixed in with all of the God, Guts and Glory stuff we are supposed to believe sane structural firefighters live by according to him?
How many people in the wildland firefighting community from the fire management end do you think Willis knows personally and has worked with over the past 20 years in his various job titles? Hundreds? Thousands? Where are his friends and supporters to defend his assertion the Granite Mountain Hotshots died as part of a greater plan God had them and therefore they did not die as a direct result of poor fire management and reckless decisions?
I’m glad most of the families are not going there because it is hard enough to sue the Arizona State Forestry, much less sue God…right?
Gary, I am not trying to defend Darrell Willis. Where are you getting that from?
Also, are you suggesting that I am trying to say that everyone says that Fred Schoeffler was bad at what he did? I certainly never said such a thing! So what exactly are you thinking that I am saying about Fred, other than the fact that he has made up MULTIPLE anonymous names to use here to try to pretend that he is MULTIPLE unrelated people, to make it seem like MULTIPLE unrelated people agree with his ideas and opinions, which, in my opinion, is a SHITTY thing to do when he is specifically saying inflammatory things that are often inaccurate about people who are not here to defend themselves?
(In an unrelated vein, Gary, do I have your permission to share the e-mails that you sent me regarding Fred, since you yourself are disclosing them here? I would never do it without your permission.)
Once again, the counselor spreads some more of her sweet, runny, bullshit.
I can’t believe you folks continue to bite.
They call me Fred. 🙂
You Might ask your self how many have blocked her from E-mail.
My last count was 4 and that is just who I know.
Well, it’s been kind of hard for me to keep track, but the counselor has pulled it all together in some comments down below.
Apparently, EVERYONE COMMENTING ON THIS SITE except for Rocksteady and Bob, is ACTUALLY Fred.
For anyone out there keeping score, according to EN, there have ACTUALLY only been only four distinct commenters here for the past few months.
It’s so nice to have cleared that up!
One of the Freds
I confess.
EN has never accused me of being Fred.
But that’s just because I am such a BRILLIANT MASTER of disguising myself.
🙂
Are we a gang yet?
And I totally agree about not biting.
My apologies for leaving Marti and Gary off of the counselor’s not-Fred list.
To make it easier, just call me Fred too. 🙂
What a simple solution!
OOps I should have put this here:
Are we a gang yet?
To avoid this post getting lost, I want to drag it back up here to the top:
Anyone can sue anyone for anything. The question is whether a particular lawsuit or claim is likely to be a winner. Here’s the problem with trying to pin the whole YHF tragedy and 19 deaths on Eric Marsh: 18 other guys, including at least roughly 12 with some experience, WENT ALONG WITH Eric’s alleged order, which suggests that the other senior, experienced members of the Granite Mountain Hotshots ALSO did not see any irrational level of risk with what they were doing that fateful afternoon.
Meaning: what Eric allegedly “ordered” the guys to do in leaving the dirty black struck at least the senior guys as REASONABLE at the time, or else they would have refused, because NOBODY was looking to die that day. If Eric’s alleged “order” struck senior hotshots as NOT IRRATIONAL, such that they did as asked and did not instead go over the other side of the ridge line as Fred Schoeffler keeps trying to say that they should have done, how can anyone successfully argue that Eric’s alleged order constituted an irrationally dangerous “rogue” order or action?
Meaning, how can something that other senior hotshots viewed as “reasonable” at the time, under the conditions then-existing, honestly be viewed by folks who WERE NOT THERE as irrationally dangerous or rogue? (For those who are asking how I know that the senior members of the GM IHC viewed the move to the BSR as “reasonable,” my answer is the obvious one: Because they DID IT, and senior hotshots tend not to do things that they believe are insanely and irrationally dangerous and likely to get them and their squads killed.)
If there was an “order” – we have been told this would be unusual – someone almost by definition was objecting. Otherwise – why the order? It would be assumed that Steed was objecting – which is the narrative laid out in the article. Any conversations between Steed and the rest of the crew will probably remain unknown forever.
Mike, are you saying that Steed would have to accept the “order,” even if he thought it was insanely dangerous? (If that is not what you are saying, then why does it matter whether it was an “order” or an “instruction” or a “direction” or a “strong suggestion”?)
According to my WFF friends, that is just now how hotshot crews work these days. If Steed and someone like Norris or Caldwell or Ashcraft thought it was insanely dangerous, they would have said “no,” regardless of whether it was an “order” or a “suggestion,” because, again, nobody was looking to die that day.
Elizabeth, you are a smart person. But you are being too black and white here. The occurrence of an order indications someone (Steed) was objecting – reportedly on the basis that the idea was unsafe. But when given an order, Steed had a choice to make Was the order so unsafe that he could disobey it? This was not just some run of the mill overhead – this was his direct superior who he had to work with every day. Who could fire him, or make his life difficult. In the end, he decided, for whatever reason, to obey it. It was a deadly mistake. I am sure Steed was not happy about being put in that spot. His obeying the order does not mean he was comfortable with it or thought it was truly safe.
Marsh said they could beat the train, Steed said they could not, Marsh said sure you can, Steed said he wasn’t comfortable. Finally Marsh said, I am the boss and you WILL beat the train.
They tried, unfortunately the train was going faster than they thought.
Most times you can beat the train, but under the extreme fire behaviour and fire weather conditions, they lost to the locomotive.
And THAT ‘decision making’ process by 2 men, on behalf of the other 17 who they were supposed to bring home safely… is called “gross negligence”.
That is ALL that has to be proved in order for the plaintiffs to prevail in the ‘wrongful death’ lawsuits.
Rocksteady –
It might just be semantics and a small point, but I would hate to believe that Steed thought they would not make it and then obeyed Marsh. He may have thought they would make it, but just thought the idea of going into that canyon, with the increasing fire, the unstable weather and poor eyes on the fire was a very bad idea – raise the hair on your neck thing. He should have stuck to his guns in any case, but if he really thought they would not make it, there should have been no question – he had to stay put. He allegedly later said they were not going to make it – but that was well into the descent I think.
You get it, you hit the nail on the head, use whatever metaphor suits you, right on!
They knew the train was the te, but underestimated it’s speed.
Its been 20 years since wff have been killed due to a fire train wreck.
They did not know when they launched off the hill that they would pay for it with their lives.
So, in response to Liz, they did not consider it irrational, as they did not have all of the data to process.
Fire behaviour, rate of spread, distance thru the green, speed they could travel, etc.
Back to the 10 and 18, if you don’t know, DON’T GO!!!!
Reply to Elizabeth (counselor) post on April 5, 2015 at 5:47 pm
>> counselor said…
>>
>> According to my WFF friends, that is just now how hotshot
>> crews work these days.
It doesn’t matter what the hell your “Hotshot friends” think or how “hotshot crews work these days”.
As far as the pending/active ‘wrongful death’ lawsuits go… it ONLY matters what happened on the afternoon of June 30, 2013… and what a JURY is going to think with regards to whether there was ‘gross negligence’ involved in the deaths of those men.
From the AZCENTRAL article…
AZCENTRAL
Article Title: NEW ACCOUNT OF HOTSHOT DEATHS
http://www.azcentral.com/story/news/arizona/investigations/2015/04/04/yarnell-fire-new-account-hotshot-deaths/25284535/
————————————————————————–
In the radio call, Marsh told Steed to leave the “black,” which was safe, and join him at the ranch. Steed protested, saying such a move would be dangerous. The radio exchange turned into a dispute.
“My understanding of the argument between Eric Marsh and Jesse Steed … was that Steed did not want to go down,” Paladini said.
According to Paladini’s account, Steed objected until Marsh gave him a direct order to descend.
As the back-and-forth conversation continued, it became apparent that Steed, a U.S. Marine veteran, consented to the command to relocate the team. But he told Marsh he thought it was a bad idea.
—————————————————————–
YOU are the one who keeps ‘inventing’ ( and repeating ) the term “insanely dangerous”.
That is not what has been reported.
THIS is what is ACTUALLY being reported…
1) Steed thought it was ‘dangerous’ ( Sic: RISKY. No ‘insane’ word used ).
2) His Supervisor Marsh refused to take “no” for an answer.
3) Argument ensued.
4) Steed still did NOT want to go down.
5) His Supervisor STILL refused to take “no” for an answer.
6) Continued ‘objections’ WERE made.
7) Eric Marsh continued to pay no attention to his Captain’s wishes.
8) Marsh gave a direct ORDER to ‘take the risk’. and ‘come down’.
9) Steed agreed to ‘take the risk’ but still said it was a ‘bad idea’.
Got news for ya, counselor.
If even HALF of what is now being reported is TRUE… it is still a TEXTBOOK definition of ‘gross negligence’ on BOTH Eric Marsh’s and Jesse Steed’s part.
Like I said before… I think the JURY will only be ‘out’ on the ‘wrongful death’ lawsuit cases for about an hour.
And since ‘counselor’ seems to think people can’t even scroll down 1 or 2 pages… here are my original comments to the same ‘word for word’ post so they don’t get ‘lost’, either.
Reply to Elizabeth (counselor) post on April 5, 2015 at 11:52 am
>> counselor said…
>>
>> If there is something I am missing, tell me. I’m happy to hear it.
A clue?
>> counselor also said…
>>
>> Anyone can sue anyone for anything. The question is whether a particular
>> lawsuit or claim is likely to be a winner.
What is YOUR definition of ‘winning’, counselor?
Sometimes civil actions are filed just for the sake of making sure the TRUTH comes out.
The families have already stated over and over that even the existing ‘wrongful death’ suits in the civil arena have NOTHING to do with MONEY.
They are seeking (quote) “The TRUTH, accountability, and change”.
If ANY of them feel ( based on past, current, or new information that might arise ) that filing other suits will lead to some people finally having to “tell the truth” as part of the proceedings in that case… then that might easily be ENOUGH of a reason to file.
>> counselor also said…
>>
>> Here’s the problem with trying to pin the whole thing on Eric Marsh:
loquetur et plane, counselor. ( Speak clearly ).
What do you mean by ‘the whole thing’?
The currently active ‘wrongful death’ lawsuits involve the ENTIRE mismanagement of the Yarnell Hill Fire… from the moment it began until the moment 19 lives were lost BECAUSE of that ‘chain of mismanagement’. and poor decision making.
It is not even POSSIBLE to ‘pin the whole thing’ on Eric Marsh, Jesse Steed, or any other single individual. This is clearly stated in the filings of the wrongful death lawsuits.
>> counselor also said…
>>
>> 18 other friggin’ guys, including at least roughly 12 with some experience,
>> WENT ALONG WITH Eric’s alleged order.
When you stopped by the afterlife and conducted your interviews with them… did any of them say they were off taking a piss and did not even KNOW there was an ‘order’?
Did ALL of them even KNOW what ‘the plan’ really was… or what the route was supposed to be… in order to either ‘go along’ or not?
The mere fact that they are DEAD does NOT mean they were ALL fully advised of the situation they were being asked to participate in.
>> counselor also said…
>>
>> This means that none of the senior, experienced members of the Granite Mountain
>> Hotshots perceived any irrational level of risk either.
Again… check your notes from your afterlife interview sessions?
Are you SURE you are reading them correctly?
That NONE of them were ‘perceiving irrational risk’… regardless of whether they also decided to keep their mouths shut and keep their jobs?
>> counselor also said…
>>
>> This means that what Eric allegedly asked the guys to do
Bzzzzt. WRONG. Eric did not ‘ask the guys’. No friggin’ way.
Eric Marsh only had ‘one guy’ to ask/order. That was Captain Jesse Steed.
How much ANY of the ‘others’ overheard, or were told, or even KNEW about what the hell was going on that afternoon and what their workplace supervisors were ‘deciding’ FOR them is ( and will probably remain ) a total mystery.
>> counselor also said…
>>
>> struck them as REASONABLE at the time, or else they would have refused.
You are ASSUMING an awful lot there, counselor.
Including ( but not limited to ) that they were all fully AWARE of the planned route BEFORE agreeing to leave the black.
NONE of ‘those men’ were even given any maps. ( See ADOSH report/citations ).
We have no idea how many of them knew what a “Boulder Springs Ranch” was, WHERE it was, or how to get there.
They were TRUSTING their ‘managers’ to make the right decisions to keep them safe.
That TRUST was misplaced.
>> counselor also said…
>>
>> because, again, NOBODY was looking to die that day.
That’s about the only thing in this latest post of yours I’m going to agree with.
>> counselor also said…
>>
>> If Eric’s alleged “order” struck at least 12 or so other hotshots as NOT IRRATIONAL
Again… check your afterlife interview notes. Make sure you talked to ALL of them.
>> counselor also said…
>>
>> such that they followed his alleged order
If they were all even AWARE there was an actual ‘order’ given ( if it even WAS given )…. the prevalent MILITARY-STYLE culture has to be factored in here to answer even your own musings.
Many a soldier has muttered “He’s out of his fucking mind”… but gone ahead and done what they were being told, anyway.
>> counselor also said…
>>
>> how can anyone successfully argue that Eric’s alleged order constituted
>> an irrationally dangerous “rogue” order or action?
Because that isn’t what has to be ‘successfully argued.
All a jury has to do in order to find for the ‘plaintiffs’ in the currently active ‘wrongful death’ lawsuits is decide that there is sufficient evidence that their deaths… in THAT workplace… on THAT workday… were the direct result of ‘gross negligence’ on the part of their supervisors/employers.
Gross negligence is (quote) “a conscious and voluntary disregard of the need to use reasonable care, which is likely to cause foreseeable grave injury or harm to persons, property, or both”.
The ADOSH investigation has ALREADY proven there was all kinds of ‘gross negligence’ going on in that workplace that day. To actually find out ( for sure ) that even MORE of it was going on out in that box canyon is going to just be ‘piling on’.
It’s actually going to be a ‘fast jury’ on this one.
I would imagine they will only deliberate for about an hour.
And if Arizona Forestry even thinks they can throw Eric Marsh ( alone ) under any kind of moving vehicle… they better have a damn good pitching arm.
** BEGIN NEW COMMENTS FOR NEW TEXT
>> counselor also said…
>>
>> Meaning, how can something that other senior hotshots viewed
>> as “reasonable” at the time, under the conditions then-existing,
>> honestly be viewed by folks who WERE NOT THERE as irrationally
>> dangerous or rogue?
Easy. Bring in OTHER people who will testify to the OPPOSITE…. that THEY would NEVER have attempted THAT risky move… at THAT time… under THOSE conditions… on THAT day.
There are PLENTY of them. Probably WAAAY more than whoever it is YOU are referring to.
Besides… it isn’t ‘other experienced Hotshots’ that the attorneys will have to convince what ‘reasonable’ or ‘unreasonable’ decisions were that day.
It’s a JURY ( E.g. People who don’t fight fires for a living ).
>> counselor also said…
>>
>> (For those who are asking how I know that the senior members of
>> the GM IHC viewed the move to the BSR as “reasonable,” my answer
>> is the obvious one: Because they DID IT, and senior hotshots tend
>> not to do things that they believe are insanely and irrationally
>> dangerous and likely to get them and their squads killed.)
Good luck with THAT argument in court.
Be sure to bring your ‘afterlife interviews’ transcripts with ALL of the men that died.
They will need to be admitted as evidence if you even try to make THAT argument.
Don’t forget the part of EACH transcript of EACH interview with ALL of the men where they clearly state WHAT they knew, WHEN they knew it, and how they each personally decided to keep their jobs rather than challenge the decisions of the people they were TRUSTING to keep them from getting killed.
Even if the Judge rules that your ‘afterlife interviews’ are inadmissible as evidence… it will certainly make for good reading.
Presumably Paul Musser, Bucky Yowell, and True Brown would all testify, if asked, that the fire moved far far far faster than they anticipated between 4:24 and 4:37 p.m.
Presumably all three men would testify that they would have wanted to be out of that area a bit sooner, if possible, than they were ultimately able to get out.
Presumably the jury would hear Aaron Hulburd’s video in which he yells “WE NEED TO GET THEM ALL OUT OF HERE…. WE NEED TO GET THEM OUT!!” (or something like that – I am quoting from memory) which shows that MULTIPLE WFF professionals were caught off-guard with how fast everything changed. (And presumably the video clip in which one of the most senior WFFs on the fire says, as GM is making their move, “things are changing pretty fast” will speak for itself, no?)
Reply to Elizabeth ( counselor ) post on April 5, 2015 at 5:56 pm
And the point of your NEW ‘tangent’ would be?
EVERYTHING you just listed above can ALSO be attributed to ‘gross negligence’ in that workplace that day ( and, indeed, has already been established by the ADOSH report ).
The fact that a new article from AZCENTRAL is now ALSO providing a possible glimpse into the other ‘gross negligence’ that was going on out on the WESTERN side of the fire ( not the EAST side as you keep harping on ) is really nothing but ‘piling on’ at this point.
The more you keep REMINDING us of all the other ‘negligence’ that was going on there on that EAST side of the fire as well… I’m about to reduce my best ‘guesstimate’ as to how the long the JURY will be ‘out’ in the ‘wrongful death’ suits to more like only 30 or 40 minutes.
EN has taken her long-running ‘Theater of the Absurd’ to a new and very appalling low. What we now have is the ‘Theater of the Reprehensible’ wherein she unconscionably capitalizes on the fact that there are 18 deceased individuals who have NO opportunity to step up and dispute her recent claims that she knows all about what they were thinking, and all about what they were perceiving, and she can therefore put the blame on them for doing what they were told to do.
If nobody else here is going to say it, I will. Those 18 firefighters don’t deserve this treatment. It’s an outrage.
If that cross fade video by WTKTT shows anything at all, it reveals that the rank and file on this crew were done a horrible injustice on that day in being coerced to leave that ridge. And, now, more than a year and a half later, EN is making sure that horrible injustice is not over yet. She is clearly on a campaign to blame-the-victims.
I realize that there must surely be some fatigue on the part of more than just a few of you here, after tirelessly pushing back against EN’s endless parade of falsehoods all this time. I’m tired of reading it, so I can visualize just how tired you must be of submitting the much-needed debunking and rebuttals. But somebody has got to do it. EN does not have the right to speak for those 18 firefighters. Not now, not ever.
For someone who does seem to have gone to college and then has had this event as one of her main focuses for some time, EN seems oddly disinclined to learn anything about heuristics. I would say that, were Marsh to have been standing there with 12 peers who were equally or more experienced and equal or higher in perceived (or actual) rank to Marsh, she would have a point. But that’s not the case. It’s not surprising at all that the whole crew went along. Moreover, per Dudley’s “rabbits” comment, had any of them bailed, I fully expect that they would have been subject to a great deal of negative scrutiny afterwards.
Kind of like the free range chicken in stead of pictures— no matter what she just keeps disagreeing. Some one else’s turn to explain the facts of life.
I am about wore out—– I am sure WTKTT is getting close but then he has better comebacks than me.
Gotta love that chicken.
He Just. Keeps. Sending. Pictures.
We already learned that J. Stout = Fred Schoeffler and SR = Fred Schoeffler, right? Fred keeps making up different names to use on this blog to stalk me, right? I think someone either on this blog or another one already proved that….
So, Fred Schoeffler, stop stalking me.
Oh MY GOD ARE you Insane??????????????
Bob, you realize “anonymous posters” on here can be identified by IP addresses, right? 🙂
Say what you will Neither are Fred.
You are delirious.
And are you going to say that “seymour” and mike and TTWARE and Robert-the-Second are NOT Fred Schoeffler as well, Bob? 😉 🙂
YES, YES, YES and any thing is possible????????
Anyone can sue anyone for anything. The question is whether a particular lawsuit or claim is likely to be a winner.
Here’s the problem with trying to pin the whole thing on Eric Marsh: 18 other friggin’ guys, including at least roughly 12 with some experience, WENT ALONG WITH Eric’s alleged order. This means that none of the senior, experienced members of the Granite Mountain Hotshots perceived any irrational level of risk either.
This means that what Eric allegedly asked the guys to do struck them as REASONABLE at the time, or else they would have refused, because, again, NOBODY was looking to die that day. If Eric’s alleged “order” struck at least 12 or so other hotshots as NOT IRRATIONAL, such that they followed his alleged order, how can anyone successfully argue that Eric’s alleged order constituted an irrationally dangerous “rogue” order or action?
If there is something I am missing, tell me. I’m happy to hear it. Otherwise, I am just not seeing what the lawyers on this board – like Bob Powers 🙂 – are seeing.
As I said the Case Files are out there look it up or shut up—–
I am not seeing any thing where ever that came from?
In a court of law you are still at the mercy of the JURY–
Spend some time in a little research, Your the Professor.
Bob, name *ONE* case in which a Hotshot sup was held liable for what you are alleging Marsh did. Name ONE case…. (Not surprisingly, you will not be able to do so.)
And what does this mean: “I am not seeing any thing where ever that came from?” What are you trying to say?
First I can not name the cases I have seen 2. in the past 10 years. And there are more. I do not remember the names of the fires.
Second I never said a Superintendent—- I said Crew Bosses and Higher Supervisors including Engine Capt.
as such Marsh as a DIVS or Steed as a Crew Leader or Marsh as the Supervisor
of GM. All are with in the realm of Law Suits. or Identified as the decision makers. From what I saw on one case the Crew Boss Was held responsible be cause he was the supervisor of the crew and the crew had no responsibility to over ride his decisions based on the court.
Last Your statement above—Like Bob Powers are seeing.
Every time I say something you are trying to make an argument.
I am thru with you games. .Ask all you want— some one else can try to discuss facts with you. I’m Thru after yesterday and today.
Bob said:
“From what I saw on one case the Crew Boss Was held responsible be cause he was the supervisor of the crew and the crew had no responsibility to over ride his decisions based on the court.”
Bob, that is different than what allegedly happened with Eric Marsh. Marsh wasn’t even WITH the crew, according to your story and that of the AZ Republic. So *STEED* was in charge. Nobody *HAD* to do what Eric Marsh said.
After all this time and all the discussion on how HS Crews are run.
ARE YOU SERIOUS?????????????
Marsh Hired and Fired– Steed worked for Marsh he did what he was told as did the crew. Steed was a temporary supervisor for the day
He wanted Marshes Job would he say no when pressed? If Steed maid an attempt at an argument the facts say he gave in.
That is more than I wanted to say to you– but you do not know what you are talking about———-
Bob, you honestly think that 18 guys knowingly walked to their death? Honestly? Every single one of those guys had the right to say “no,” and they didn’t – the senior ones knew enough to say “no,” even if the newer ones might not have been comfortable with such.
On the Clear Creek Fire, your pal Fred Schoeffler wanted his assistant or squad bosses to keep fighting fire AFTER they had decided they were no longer comfortable doing so, and the assistant or squad bosses basically gave Fred the metaphorical middle finger and moved to the black regardless of Fred’s view. That didn’t harm the careers of any of them. For example, Mike Shinstock (who was one of the senior guys under Fred on the Clear Creek Fire, if I recall correctly) ultimately became the Supt. of the Payson Hotshots after Fred was finally out. So senior guys on hotshot crews will absolutely disobey orders or push back if they feel like a Supt. is making unsafe demands. (On the Clear Creek Fire, based on what I was told, I believe Fred ranted while the guys were in or moving to the black, saying something on their crew net like “AM I GOING TO BE THE ONLY ONE OUT HERE FIGHTING FIRE????” Yes, Fred, you are. 🙂 )
And That was proven wrong by another Superintendent that was there. Again your sources are not creditable.
that is the proven fact .
What you were told by who ever is false but that has been prove with names not ghost bloggers.
Find something new to talk about and quite attacking those on here you disagree with.
What are you talking about, Bob? The story about Fred standing in the unburned fuel yelling at his guys about “AM I THE ONLY ONE WHO IS GOING TO BE OUT HERE FIGHTING FIRE” was never disproven! Mike Shinstock or Mike Heron or one of the other Payson guys who was there that day and ON Fred’s intra-net (which he apparently favored, so that he could talk/yell privately to his guys) can corroborate the story (although I might be getting Fred Schoeffler’s words slightly wrong, in terms of what he was yelling at his crew when he was pissed that they were “hunkering” in the black – the take-away, though, is that he was bitching at his guys for being in the black when he wanted them instead fighting fire, and they basically just ignored Fred without issue, at least according to the way that they tell me the story).
Again you are being fed BS ——
Reply to Elizabeth (counselor) post on April 5, 2015 at 11:52 am
>> counselor said…
>>
>> If there is something I am missing, tell me. I’m happy to hear it.
A clue?
>> counselor also said…
>>
>> Anyone can sue anyone for anything. The question is whether a particular
>> lawsuit or claim is likely to be a winner.
What is YOUR definition of ‘winning’, counselor?
Sometimes civil actions are filed just for the sake of making sure the TRUTH comes out.
The families have already stated over and over that even the existing ‘wrongful death’ suits in the civil arena have NOTHING to do with MONEY.
They are seeking (quote) “The TRUTH, accountability, and change”.
If ANY of them feel ( based on past, current, or new information that might arise ) that filing other suits will lead to some people finally having to “tell the truth” as part of the proceedings in that case… then that might easily be ENOUGH of a reason to file.
>> counselor also said…
>>
>> Here’s the problem with trying to pin the whole thing on Eric Marsh:
loquetur et plane, counselor. ( Speak clearly ).
What do you mean by ‘the whole thing’?
The currently active ‘wrongful death’ lawsuits involve the ENTIRE mismanagement of the Yarnell Hill Fire… from the moment it began until the moment 19 lives were lost BECAUSE of that ‘chain of mismanagement’. and poor decision making.
It is not even POSSIBLE to ‘pin the whole thing’ on Eric Marsh, Jesse Steed, or any other single individual. This is clearly stated in the filings of the wrongful death lawsuits.
>> counselor also said…
>>
>> 18 other friggin’ guys, including at least roughly 12 with some experience,
>> WENT ALONG WITH Eric’s alleged order.
When you stopped by the afterlife and conducted your interviews with them… did any of them say they were off taking a piss and did not even KNOW there was an ‘order’?
Did ALL of them even KNOW what ‘the plan’ really was… or what the route was supposed to be… in order to either ‘go along’ or not?
The mere fact that they are DEAD does NOT mean they were ALL fully advised of the situation they were being asked to participate in.
>> counselor also said…
>>
>> This means that none of the senior, experienced members of the Granite Mountain
>> Hotshots perceived any irrational level of risk either.
Again… check your notes from your afterlife interview sessions?
Are you SURE you are reading them correctly?
That NONE of them were ‘perceiving irrational risk’… regardless of whether they also decided to keep their mouths shut and keep their jobs?
>> counselor also said…
>>
>> This means that what Eric allegedly asked the guys to do
Bzzzzt. WRONG. Eric did not ‘ask the guys’. No friggin’ way.
Eric Marsh only had ‘one guy’ to ask/order. That was Captain Jesse Steed.
How much ANY of the ‘others’ overheard, or were told, or even KNEW about what the hell was going on that afternoon and what their workplace supervisors were ‘deciding’ FOR them is ( and will probably remain ) a total mystery.
>> counselor also said…
>>
>> struck them as REASONABLE at the time, or else they would have refused.
You are ASSUMING an awful lot there, counselor.
Including ( but not limited to ) that they were all fully AWARE of the planned route BEFORE agreeing to leave the black.
NONE of ‘those men’ were even given any maps. ( See ADOSH report/citations ).
We have no idea how many of them knew what a “Boulder Springs Ranch” was, WHERE it was, or how to get there.
They were TRUSTING their ‘managers’ to make the right decisions to keep them safe.
That TRUST was misplaced.
>> counselor also said…
>>
>> because, again, NOBODY was looking to die that day.
That’s about the only thing in this latest post of yours I’m going to agree with.
>> counselor also said…
>>
>> If Eric’s alleged “order” struck at least 12 or so other hotshots as NOT IRRATIONAL
Again… check your afterlife interview notes. Make sure you talked to ALL of them.
>> counselor also said…
>>
>> such that they followed his alleged order
If they were all even AWARE there was an actual ‘order’ given ( if it even WAS given )…. the prevalent MILITARY-STYLE culture has to be factored in here to answer even your own musings.
Many a soldier has muttered “He’s out of his fucking mind”… but gone ahead and done what they were being told, anyway.
>> counselor also said…
>>
>> how can anyone successfully argue that Eric’s alleged order constituted
>> an irrationally dangerous “rogue” order or action?
Because that isn’t what has to be ‘successfully argued.
All a jury has to do in order to find for the ‘plaintiffs’ in the currently active ‘wrongful death’ lawsuits is decide that there is sufficient evidence that their deaths… in THAT workplace… on THAT workday… were the direct result of ‘gross negligence’ on the part of their supervisors/employers.
Gross negligence is (quote) “a conscious and voluntary disregard of the need to use reasonable care, which is likely to cause foreseeable grave injury or harm to persons, property, or both”.
The ADOSH investigation has ALREADY proven there was all kinds of ‘gross negligence’ going on in that workplace that day. To actually find out ( for sure ) that even MORE of it was going on out in that box canyon is going to just be ‘piling on’.
It’s actually going to be a ‘fast jury’ on this one.
I would imagine they will only deliberate for about an hour.
And if Arizona Forestry even thinks they can throw Eric Marsh ( alone ) under any kind of moving vehicle… they better have a damn good pitching arm.
What is the point of your last seven paragraphs? You are saying that ADOSH has to prove “gross negligence”? Or what are you trying to say?
My only point was: Even if we assume that what Fred Schoeffler and Bob Powers are trying to say that Eric Marsh did was true, how does that change the legal liability picture? How does that get the State of Arizona off the hook? I do not think that it does, but it seems like you do. How, exactly, do you think that it does? I am assuming that that is what you are trying to explain with your last seven paragraphs, but the dots are not connecting.
You Might add besides us the city of Prescott’s Lawyer, city Council, and Willis
and the list will grow—–
You are not listening and haven’t for 2 days—–
Reply to Elizabeth (counselor) post on April 5, 2015 at 4:51 pm
>> counselor said…
>>
>> What is the point of your last seven paragraphs?
Nothing lofty, really.
Just pointing out ( once again ) that you are ( as usual ) completely full of shit and you don’t know what you are talking about.
It’s a boring task… but someone has to do it.
>> counselor
>>
>> You are saying that ADOSH has to prove “gross negligence”?
>> Or what are you trying to say?
Reading skills, counselor. Reading skills.
You asked a QUESTION how someone might prove something.
That ‘something’ is NOT what has to be proved ( by anyone ).
>> counselor also said…
>>
>> My only point was: Even if we assume that what
>> Fred Schoeffler and Bob Powers are trying to say
>> that Eric Marsh did was true,
So now Brendan McDonough, Darrell Willis, Jon Paladini, David Selden,
and AZCENTRAL reporters Robert Anglen, Dennis Wagner and Yvonne Wingett Sanchez are all ‘Fred’ too?
Hey… why not. Can’t ever have too many ‘Freds’ at a party, I guess.
>> counselor also said…
>>
>> How does that change the legal liability picture?
It doesn’t. Not really.
>> How does that get the State of Arizona off the hook?
It doesn’t. Not really.
>> I do not think that it does, but it seems like you do.
Again… ‘Reading skills’ counselor. See other posts ( of mine ) below.
>> counselor also said…
>>
>> How, exactly, do you think that it does?
I don’t. ‘think it does’. Not really.
>> counselor also said…
>>
>> I am assuming that that is what you are trying to explain
>> with your last seven paragraphs, but the dots are not connecting.
ASSUMING is what you do best… so I’m not surprised.
The ‘dots’ your poor reading skills ( and/or medication levels ) don’t seem to allow you to ‘see’ are the ones pointing to the fact that I think the ARGUMENT that YOU were trying to make is nonsense… and would never stand up in court as any kind of ‘defense’ in the currently active Yarnell HIll Fire ‘wrongful death’ suits.
My 2 cents… and my opinion… but there it is ( up above ).
I wasn’t suggesting it would, WTKTT. That was my point – my point was that the AZ Republic and guys like Bob are wrong, in that, even if Eric Marsh did what they are suggesting, that is not going to take the governmental entities off the hook.
And I said way down that the question remains Marsh was a DIVS on the Fire which means he was high enough in the pecking order to also be considered a Overhead assigned by the STATE FIRE and there for part of the State overhead team and why the State was Fined and may be liable.
He also was The Superintendent of the Crew So the Lawyers will have to work that out or the Judge or a jury.
All plausible outcomes of who was responsible.
Maybe everyone else has seen this clip, I hadn’t, I was out of the loop for a few months. A friend and former hotshot just sent it to me. The following is his comment that came with the clip. I couldn’t agree more or have said it better. You did some amazing…absolutely amazing work here WTTKT. I hope this clip is used at all wildland firefighting training from here to eternity. It puts everything in perspective like nothing else has for me. Amazing work.
“This is the clip I was talking about I think they said it was taken around 1620, or about when they were standing on top ready to head down the rabbit hole. My first reaction is that I would have refused, not out of a superior knowledge of fire behavior, but out of pure pant shitting fear.”
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NSYpnPMfPmc&app=desktop
Gary… yes… my own personal ‘best estimate’ as to the time that ABC15 Chopper clip was taken is circa 4:20 PM on Sunday, June 30, 2013. That may change as I continue to work with all 35 of the video clips… but probably by no more than +/- a few minutes.
The western edge of the fireline that is clearly seen in Christopher MacKenzie’s photos and videos in the 3:50 to 3:55 PM timeframe did nothing but CONTINUE to head DIRECTLY SOUTH and towards those two little features we have come to call “Big Roundtop” and “Little Roundtop”… and also did nothing but keep PICKING UP SPEED.
Those ‘mounds’ SPLIT the western edge of the SOUTH moving fireline.
One ‘split’ then (apparently) charged up that drainage where that two-track heads up to the ridge and became the flames that ignited the ‘Descent Point’ area up on top of the saddle.
The other ‘split’ sort of raced over and AROUND “Little Bigtop” and headed DUE SOUTH straight for the mouth of the box canyon.
That is the fireline that ( apparently ) reached the mouth of the box canyon first, caught the draft into that natural ‘chimney’, and then burned WEST and killed ‘Granite Mountain’.
There is actually ‘more to come’ on this.
This was only the 18th sequential ABC15 Chopper clip shot that afternoon.
‘Air15’ was over the Yarnell fire for only 43 minutes but it was at a ‘crucial’
time ( from 3:59 PM to 4:42 PM ).
There are actually 35 clips ( 17 more following the one above ).
There is no EXIF metadata TIME or DATE information in the PUBLIC clips uploaded by ABC15 to YouTube on the night of the tragedy itself ( 8:00 PM on June 30, 2013 ).
Only the ABC15 television station has the ORIGINAL footage complete with exact TIME and DATE ( and possible GPS location ) information in the video data.
Astoundingly… NONE of this ABC15 footage was either requested or examined by TWO different ‘official’ investigations into the incident.
I fail to see how Eric Marsh ordering the guys down to the ranch – or NOT – would change legal liability for *ANY* of the governmental entities that are currently being sued. Meaning, down below someone was suggesting that maybe the State of Arizona is trying to shape the narrative to get themselves off the hook. But HOW would Eric ordering the guys down to the ranch actually get the State of Arizona (or any other governmental entity) *COMPLETELY* off the legal hook? I just don’t see it.
I know that the Arizona Republic made that suggestion in their article, but, again, I just do not see how pointing the finger at Eric would achieve that result.
Anyone?
IF it can be proven that Marsh issued an order to move the crew from a safe place and (although unintentionally) put them in harms way, the IMT, State and any other parties that are being named in the wrongful death lawsuits will then claim that it was all a rogue decision by Marsh that caused the demise of the crew and not any fault of the IMT or State. i.e.: “He acted on his own, we would never have approved that had we known!” It’s pin the liability on the donkey!
This ” IF” true gives all the parties involved a person to point the finger at basically…
Not being a lawyer, would it also not open up Marsh’s widow and estate to be sued civilly?
Also to add– A Law Professor who ask the question, should be able to answer this with a little research into court case history on fatality fires.
Crew bosses and supervisors have been found responsible and sued for the deaths in burn overs. unless higher supervisors were involved.
The Federal Lawyers do this all the time thus the need for liability Insurance.
As I have said over and over the Crew boss/Superintendent are the final responsibility.
No one above Marsh knew or discussed the move. and the old saying the buck stops there if they have that proof. we know the OPS and IC
did not know of the move.
Marsh being a DIVS. for the State may still cause a problem but he was also the crew Superintendent.
Reply to rocksteady post on April 5, 2015 at 9:23 am
>> rocksteady said…
>>
>> Not being a lawyer, would it also not open up Marsh’s widow
>> and estate to be sued civilly?
Yes.
‘Wrongful death’ suits CAN be filed in civil court against ANY person or company or agency if the proof exists to justify the filing and the person filing the action has the right ‘standing’.
The right ‘standing’ for filing ‘wrongful death’ is limited to family members of the deceased.
The ‘defendant’ would have to be the ESTATE of Eric Marsh… and not Amanda Marsh herself ( or any other Marsh family member ).
It is NOT likely any of that is going to happen… but it’s legally possible.
Clarification for above regarding “proof exists to justify the filing”.
That does NOT mean you have to have full PROOF of the alleged negligence or wrongdoing.
That is what the court proceeding itself will reveal.
The ‘Right to Proceed’ that gets granted in most Civil cases is based on about the same PCRTB rules ( Probable Cause, Reason To Believe ) that criminal cases are based on.
It doesn’t even matter if some ‘defendant’ has already been found INNOCENT of any negligence or wrongdoing in an actual CRIMINAL trial ( if there was one ).
Famous example: O.J. Simpson. Found ‘innocent’ in a Criminal Trial but then found ‘guilty’ in a subsequent ‘Wrongful Death’ suit.
There is also a legal distinction here between ‘fault’ and ‘liability’.
An employer might find just about any employee to ‘point a finger at’ following an accident and say “It was THEIR FAULT”… but that does NOT, in any way, mitigate the LIABILITY on their part.
Am not sure blaming Marsh gets the state off the hook, but it would seem that they will attempt to argue that (to at least reduce their liability).
If it went down like this, one will have to wonder why Marsh was so insistent. Was he just stubborn, or was he being pressured? We have speculated ad nauseum about that, but it is a legitimate question. We hear Marsh asking about Steed’s comfort level, he does not really seem like “my way or the highway” there. But we do not know the whole conversation. Also, it would seem that at least one person realized the danger and sadly did not stick to his guns – Jesse Steed. You may think it is naïve, but when your are in a leadership position, sometimes you must be willing to be fired.
I would also suggest if the DIVS was not Marsh and someone else.
Like most Captains of IHS crews they as Steed would have refused and dealt with it latter———-
The right of refusal because of safety issues is there for Fire Fighters to use with out reprisal.
If Marsh had not been Steeds Immediate Supervisor?????????????
The fact that Marsh was made DIVSA… and the ONLY resource under his command was his own Type 1 Hotshot crew will ALWAYS be a ‘factor’ as this incident continues to be studied.
Just the fact that this meant a DIVS and his (only) IHCS could fully communicate using a PRIVATE radio channel WAS a contributing factor to the tragedy.
Even SAIT Co-Lead Mike Dudley admitted this was true when he was answering questions from that roomful of Utah firefighters on June 20, 2014.
One of them pointed out that all of the crucial communications about a DIVS deciding to abandon his Division and move ALL his resources out of it without any of that taking place over the normal TAC channels was ‘off the reservation’ and probably a major contributing factor.
Mike Dudley said… “I agree”.
Not true. I have not seen a single iota of law that would suggest that what Marsh is alleged to have done would get the government OFF the hook. Not true at all.
The Ellreese Daniels case was a *criminal* prosecution, not a civil one.
I cannot imagine what Amanda Marsh would be sued for, because Jesse Steed was the acting Supt., and he had the right – 100% – to turn down any order that he thought was unsafe. We *all* know that.
When Arizona Forestry filed all the motions for the ‘wrongful death’ suits to be dismissed way back when… they STIPULATED ( in writing ) that Eric Marsh, Jesse Steed, and ALL of the Granite Mountain Hotshots were ’employees’ of the State of Arizona Forestry Division ALL DAY on Sunday, June 30, 2013. Period.
It’s going to be really hard now ( if not impossible? ) for them to ‘punt’ in that stipulation and try to paint Eric Marsh or Jesse Steed as just ‘sub-contractors making bad decisions’.
Forgive me for not understanding, but how is your point relevant to mine (the one to which you were responding)?
Geezus. Unbelievable.
Happy Easter to those of you who celebrate such. Peace.
**
** “WE’RE NOT GOING TO MAKE IT”
Reply to mike post on April 4, 2015 at 4:31 pm
>> mike said…
>>
>> It sounds like Marsh was the first to realize the disaster
>> that was about to take place, not the crew
Maybe not.
The AZCENTRAL article specifically says that at some point… Jesse Steed called Eric Marsh on the radio and said “We’re NOT going to make it”.
That would suggest that it was, in fact, Jesse Steed who first KNEW what deep tapioca they were in.
Wherever Eric Marsh was at that time ( presumably now somewhere near the Boulder Springs Ranch )… THAT could have been the moment that Eric Marsh took off hauling-ass WEST to meet them.
Marsh might have thought, at that point, that since HE was the one who ( presumably ) had ‘marked the path’ he wanted them to take through that fuel-filled canyon with his little pink ribbons… that maybe they were ‘off course’ and if he RAN out there to meet them then HE knew where all the ‘pink ribbons’ were ( and the shortest path to the Ranch )… and MAYBE ( just maybe ) they would then be able to ‘make it’.
That original AZCENTRAL article is here…
http://www.azcentral.com/story/news/arizona/investigations/2015/04/04/yarnell-fire-new-account-hotshot-deaths/25284535/
From the article…
————————————————————————————-
During one of the final radio transmissions, according to the account,
Steed told Marsh the crew was not going to make it.
“That is what Darrell (Willis) told me,” Paladini said.
————————————————————————————-
What would still be ASTOUNDING would be to learn that all of this FRANTIC activity had begun to take place out there in that canyon… but NO ONE ( Not Marsh, not Steed ) ( apparently? ) thought to even inform anyone ELSE in ‘fire command’ about the developing predicament.
When we FIRST hear Jesse Steed FINALLY giving ANY indication of trouble ( at 1639 ) over the A2G channel… we can ALREADY hear at least two chainsaws running. That is why Jesse was SHOUTING that first “We are in front of the flaming front” MAYDAY call. It was as much so he could hear himself speaking as it was to get the message across.
So they had ALREADY done all of the following by then ( 1639 )…
1) Realized they were in deep shit.( When? )
2) Considered ALL their options. ( For how long? )
3) Decided to DEPLOY.
4) LOCATED a deployment site. ( How long did that take? )
5) Pulled ropes on chainsaws to start improving the chosen site.
6) Decided to call Air-Atack and FINALLY let someone know what was happening.
How much TIME are we really talking about here, now… for any one of the ‘action items’ above AND for the TIME intervals in-between these actions?
If the statement in the article is TRUE… are we NOW looking at a scenario where there might have been yet ANOTHER fatal ‘moment of decision’?
If the statement is TRUE… then WHEN did Steed first make that radio call to Marsh and say “We’re not going to make it”.
Is it possible that even THEN ( depending on WHEN it happened ) there might have been a CHANCE at ‘other options’… but Marsh’s response to Steed was…
“You can MAKE it. KEEP COMING FORWARD and I’ll meet you and show you the shortest way”.
So that’s what they did? Kept moving FORWARD because of yet ANOTHER ‘order’ from Marsh?
And ALL of this going down out there without anyone knowing about it until 1639?
It all truly continues to meet the definition of “Unbelievable”.
Followup…
IAOI ( If And Only If ) that statement in the article about Jesse Steed calling Eric Marsh and saying “We’re not going to make it” is TRUE…
…then it’s worth pointing out that even Eric Marsh himself might have had no real idea exactly WHERE they were ‘out there’ when Steed made this terrible ‘announcement’.
If Eric Marsh was much closer to the Boulder Springs Ranch than they were… he, himself, might have thought that THEY were also ‘farther along’ in their journey than they really were.
THAT would have influenced Marsh’s decision making at that point.
If Marsh *thought* they were only a few hundred yards WEST… then he would have also been more inclined himself to say something like “You can MAKE it. KEEP COMING FORWARD and I’ll meet you”.
Marsh himself might have been SHOCKED to discover ( after he took off hauling-ass WEST to meet them ) how little progress they had actually been making and how DEEP into that box canyon they really were.
Any possible idea on Marsh’s part about him ‘meeting them’ and ( since he knew where all the pink ribbons were ) that making a ‘difference’ to them ‘making it’ went out the window the farther WEST he ran and the DEEPER into the canyon he had to go to even FIND them.
And… of course… every step farther WEST that Marsh took was also doing nothing but sealing his OWN fate.
Reply to Marti Reed post on April 4, 2015 at 10:33 am
NOTE: The ‘documents’ that Marti was wondering about are the actual ORIGINAL and FINAL drafts of the ‘Wildland’ section of the ICMA report(s).
>> Marti said…
>>
>> WTK, have you found any way to find these actual documents?
>> All we’re getting is various other peoples’ interpretations of them.
Yes.
Both the ORIGINAL and the FINAL drafts of the ‘Wildland’ section of the ICMA report were included as ‘attachments’ at the bottom of the actual ‘response letter/report’ that Prescott City Attorney Jon Paladini just sent to the Prescott City Council.
The ‘Prescott Daily Courier’ article about Paladini’s ‘investigation’ into whether the ICMA report was ‘tampered with’ did NOT include a link to his actual ‘letter’, or the attachments… but the ‘Prescott eNews’ article did.
Here, again, is a link to the Prescott eNews article…
http://www.prescottenews.com/index.php/news/current-news/item/25217-city-attorney-paladini-completes-investigation-of-icma-tampering
The LINK to DOWNLOAD Jon Paladini’s actual letter /report on his ‘investigation’ ( a PDF file with attachments ) is at the bottom of the page as the clickable link named “ICMA Investigation Report”.
NOTE: At NO time did Prescott City Attorney Jon Paladini say there weren’t obvious CHANGES between the original draft and the final draft. He goes out of his way in his letter to reproduce dictionary definitions of ‘tampering’ ( changes made with some malice or surreptitious intent )… and it is THAT ‘situation’ ( which is what he was asked to investigate ) that he says he finds no evidence of. He ADMITS there WERE ‘changes’… but says there were ALLOWED as part of the normal/contracted process of producing this ‘independent’ report.
** EVEN THE ORIGINAL DRAFT SAID “NO NEED FOR A TYPE 1 IHC”.
The SIDEBAR in the Prescott Daily Courier report was ONLY showing the ‘difference’ between third-party ICMA contractor Joe Stutler’s original 4th ‘recommendation’. They failed to show the one BEFORE that where even in his ORIGINAL submission Wildfire expert Joe Stutler was recommending that Prescott NOT continue supporting a ‘Type 1 IHC’ as part of the Prescott Fire Department. In his professional opinion… a ‘Type 1 IHC’ was NOT ( ever? ) needed as part of the Prescott Fire Department.
That same ( original ) recommendation from Joe Stutler survived ‘word for word’ though however many additional ‘drafts’ there were and was, indeed, still the recommendation in the FINAL report to the City of Prescott.
That would be the following EXACT words…
—————————————————————
“Implement both the ‘Conceptual Community Vegetation Management Plan, April 2001’ and the Prescott Fire Department Wildland Division Strategic Plan for 2012-2017, with the EXCEPTION of staffing an Interagency Hotshot Crew.”
—————————————————————
In other words… the existing ‘5 year plan’ for the Prescott Wildland effort SHOULD still be followed… but Prescott should NOT reconstitute a full-blown ‘Type 1 IHC Crew’. Period.
So as far as THAT ‘recommendation’ goes ( that Prescott NOT reconstitute or support a Type 1 IHC Crew )… Willis is dead WRONG about it NOT being in the original draft he says ‘he received’.
There wasn’t even a possibility of any ‘tampering’ with THAT recommendation since it was ALWAYS there… from ORIGINAL to FINAL draft(s).
As for whether or not Willis’ own $90,000 per year double-dipping job as Prescott ‘Wildland Division’ chief should evaporate ( along with the actual ‘Wildland Division’ itself )… there ARE differences between what Joe Stutler said in his original draft and what appeared in the final version.
The CHANGES that DID eventually appear in the final draft obviously just reflect some ‘tweaking’… but they are still also obviously BASED on the ORIGINAL ( expert ) recommendation that Prescott NOT have a ‘Type 1 IHC Crew’.
Since that was mostly what the entire Prescott Fire Department’s “Wildland Division” was all about… then someone in the ‘food chain’ ( City Manager? Fire Chief? ) thought that what would remain without that crew just doesn’t justify even having a full-blown ‘Division’ for that ‘on the books’ as part of the Fire Department.
So THAT is the way the final draft was actually ‘worded’.
Here is what that Prescott Daily Courier article SHOULD have shown in their own sidebar. Not just ‘recomendation 4’… but also ‘recommendation 3’ just above it.
That is where even Joe Stutler said, in no uncertain terms, that Prescott does not NEED ( nor should they reconsititute ) a ‘Type 1 IHC Crew’…
From Joe Stutler’s ORIGINAL draft…
——————————————————————–
3. Implement both the ‘Conceptual Community Vegetation Management Plan, April 2001’ and the Prescott Fire Department Wildland Division Strategic Plan for 2012-2017, with the exception of staffing an Interagency Hotshot Crew. A wildland fuels mitigation crew either with a 10 or 20 person staffing will suffice. The solutions for both tactical response and wildland fuels mitigation are specifically identified with measurable and realistic outcomes.
4. Maintain the Wildland Fire Division with the Prescott Fire Department to provide both leadership and successional planning for the division.
———————————————————————
Now from the FINAL draft ( and partial rewrite ) of Stutler’s ORIGINAL section…
———————————————————————
3. Implement both the ‘Conceptual Community Vegetation Management Plan, ( April 2001) and the PFD Wildland Division Strategic Plan for 2012-2017, with the exception of staffing an interagency hotshot crew. A wildland fuels mitigation crew either with four people in the winter seasion and six in the summer season is an alternative that enhances the fule mitigation effort. The solutions for both tactical response and wildland fuels mitigation are specifically identified with measurable and realistic outcomes.
4. Maintain the wildland fire component, (e.g training, certification, and initial attack response utilizing existing suppression fire fighters), within the PFD to provide both leadership and successful planning efforts for wildland operations.
———————————————————————
NOTE: Stutler’s ORIGINAL draft was OBVIOUSLY rewritten by someone who was also just making syntactic changes such as dropping Stutler’s use of ITALICS and putting parentheses around dates like this… ( April 2001 )… versus Stutler’s lack of parentheses around dates… and shortening Stutler’s use of the full phrase “Prescott Fire Department” to just “PFD”, and dropping his use of CAPITAL letters for “interagency hotshot crew”.
** CHANGES TO PARAGRAPH THREE…
BOTH of the ‘recommendation 3’ paragraphs above are essentially IDENTICAL in both Stutler’s original draft AND in the final draft… except for just ONE sentence, and even the first SEVEN words of that one sentence remained the same.
The ONLY change was someone changing what Stutler’s idea of an adequate ‘Fuels Mitigation Crew” should be ( 10 to 20 people ) to a smaller version with only 4 people in the winter and 6 in the summer.
So THIS ‘recommendation’ in Stutler’s original draft…
“A wildland fuels mitigation crew either with a 10 or 20 person staffing will suffice”.
…got ‘downgraded’ and changed to THIS in the final draft…
“A wildland fuels mitigation crew either with four people in the winter season and six in the summer season is an alternative that enhances the fuel mitigation effort.”
** CHANGES TO PARAGRAPH FOUR…
From Stutler’s original…
4. Maintain the Wildland Fire Division with the Prescott Fire Department to provide both leadership and successional planning for the division.
From the final draft…
4. Maintain the wildland fire component, (e.g training, certification, and initial attack response utilizing existing suppression fire fighters), within the PFD to provide both leadership and successful planning efforts for wildland operations.
NOTE: The use of the specific word ‘Division’ was changed to just using the word ‘Component’. This MUST have happened during the ‘staff input’ phase of the report generation and since even the ORIGINAL was ‘recommending’ there be no ‘Type 1 IHC Crew’… Fire Chief Dennis Light’s ‘input’ was obviously also this proposed ‘restructuring’ of the PFD organizational chart and the elimination of the overhead-heavy “Wildland Division” from that org chart.
** TO HAVE A FULL ‘WILDLAND DIVISION’… OR NOT
It is perfectly obvious (now) WHO was ‘rewriting’ this. It was most likely Prescott Chief Dennis Light himself or just one of the ICMA authors incorporating Chief Light’s own ‘recommendations’ that he made during the legitimate ‘staff input’ phase.
Chief Light felt comfortable changing all references to “Prescott Fire Department” to PFD and also ‘tweaking’ the recommendations to match HIS plans.
As Marti already discovered… that HAS to be how it went down.
Prescott Fire Chief Dennis Light took one look at that ORIGINAL ‘recommendation’ on Joe Stutler’s part that Prescott should NOT reconsititute a full ‘Type 1 IHC Crew’, and then he inserted his own ‘restructuring’ scheme that would remove the actual “Wildland Division” from the PFD organization chart, as well.
According to the ICMA contract ( and now according to City Attorney Jon Paladini )… Fire Chief Light had every right to make those ‘changes’ during the ‘staff input’ phase of the report generation.
So it wasn’t ‘tampering’. Chief Light was ALLOWED to ‘tweak it’.
On page 34 of the eventual ICMA ‘Powerpoint Presentation’ that was made to the Prescott City Council…
“ICMA supports the Fire Chief’s proposed organizational restructuring that: Consolidates the wildland suppression function with the operations functions under the command of a single division chief.”
That is EXACTLY the way Stutler’s original ‘recommendations’ were rewritten in the ‘final draft’… to support that exact ‘organization restructing’ that the Powerpoint admits was ‘authored’ by the Fire Chief ( Dennis Light ).
And the ICMA was ‘officially onboard’ with those ‘recommendation’ coming from Chief Light.
So it’s pretty clear this was Fire Chief Dennis Light’s WISH ( and his decision ).
His job was to run the Fire Department now… and since even the ORIGINAL draft of the ICMA report was recommending Prescott NOT have a ‘Type 1 IHC Crew’… it simply made ‘sense’ to him ( during his own contracted staff input phase during the report generation ) to do a ‘reorg’ and not have an entire ‘Division’ within the PFD that only had a “Fuels Crew” attached.
Joe Stutler did NOT specifically recommend that the City of Prescott ‘eliminate’ its ‘Wildland Division’… but keep in mind that Joe Stutler was hired because of his expertise in ‘Wildland Fire’… and NOT because of any expertise in how to manage a City fire department and/or whether or not an entire department ‘Division’ devoted to just ‘Wildfire’ issues is even prudent, or necessary to achieve even his own recommendations.
The ICMA authors obviously put more ‘weight’ on Chief Dennis Light’s ‘recommendations’ about whether the continuance of an entire ‘Division’ devoted to ‘Wildland’ stuff was the prudent thing for the Prescott Fire Department than they did the 3rd party Wildfire expert’s opinion.
End of story, really.
It looks like what Willis doesn’t like ( or won’t accept ) is that even the ORIGINAL recommendation coming from the ‘independent expert’ said that Prescott did not NEED a ‘Type 1 IHC Crew’…. and then Willis ALSO doesn’t like ( or won’t accept ) the fact that BASED on that very recommendation… current Prescott Fire Chief Dennis Light had every right to propose a ‘reorganization’ of the PFD ‘org chart’ itself during his own ‘input phase’ during the generation of the FINAL report.
It sounds like Marsh was the first to realize the disaster that was about to take place, not the crew (as he was running back to them – he must have known). Did he radio to the crew to warn them – it almost certainly was too late to run, but to start preparing a deployment site. Maybe no one knows that.
When Willis and McDonough say “inaccurate” – that sounds like a careful word. One or two details could make it “inaccurate” without the gist of what was reported being wrong. To me, given what has been discussed the past few months, this has the ring of truth. In fact, I think if people were honest, no one is really surprised – I kind of expected it by now. This was always going to end very badly. I don’t see any great lessons coming out of Yarnell. It was one frigging horrible mistake. Maybe Marsh had flaws that contributed to it, but no way he foresaw or wanted his men to die. People screw up, and sometimes the results are just gosh awful.
The bombshell revelation in this story is the order. I will say that if Willis denied the part about the order specifically, and the Republic just left it as “denied key details” without mentioning the order specifically, that would be unethical journalism of the highest order. Therefore I do not believe that Willis denied that McDonough told him that.
Well said Mike
It is a terrible tragedy caused by some very bad decisions and I am sure Marsh
did not plan or believe the move would kill the crew or him.
We may never know why he decided to move the crew.
I did not read the Republic article carefully enough – buried well into the article, the reporter says Willis “denied” the part about the order. But Willis’ language again seems carefully worded – he does not flat out deny and say nothing of the sort was told to him. He talks about what was “quoted” to him and “what he knew”. I know people do not like Jon Palladini, but he is not going to go to the newspaper with something made up out of whole cloth. And he is definite that this is what Willis told him. I could see getting some details wrong, but hard to believe he was “mistaken” about that crucial bit.
There is also the FACT that when Prescott City Attorney Jon Paladini started communicating with the Arizona Attorney General’s office… he was ( as per the ALJ Hearing File evidence ) AUTHORIZED to act as the ‘liason’ for Brendan as far as setting up the ‘deposition’ went.
That really does mean that following his conversations with Darrell Willis… Jon Paladini MUST have had SOME direct contact with Brendan McDonough himself.
The article is quoting Jon Paladini… and reporting on the ‘totality’ of what Jon Paladini seems to know.
Willis might be right about what HE didn’t say to Paladini… but that doesn’t mean these ‘other details’ now being reported didn’t come out of Paladini’s OWN subsequent talks with Brendan himself ( which Willis was not present for ).
So just because Darrell Willis says he doesn’t remember telling Jon Paladini something doesn’t mean Paladini didn’t eventually hear it from Brendan himself.
In other words… even Willis might have been ‘holding back’ on telling Paladini about any kind of ‘order’… but when Paladini then started acting as Brendan’s ‘mediator’ for the ‘deposition’ arrangements… McDonough himself told Paladini that WAS part of what he now wants to “get off his chest”.
It was actually pretty incompetent on the reporter’s part to not ‘sort this out’ and hear from Paladini whether he heard any of these details during his own conversations with Brendan… or whether ALL of this is just based on what Willis was ‘reporting’ to Paladini.
I just don’t know how the ‘depositions’ could have been ‘arranged’ with Paladini acting as the official ‘mediator’… unless he was also in direct contact with Brendan himself ( at some point ) about all that.
Also at the Top of the Article’—-
QUOTE
When Willis reported the conversation to Paladini and others, it set off a chain reaction of legal actions beginning with reports to Arizona State Forestry Division, Prescott city Council and Arizona Attorney Generals Office. It also led authorities to interview other potential witnesses and prompted an unsuccessful effort to subpoena McDonough.
What did those other witness say that caused a decision to subpoena McDonough.?
What ever info they got from those witnesses may have prompted the decision to try and subpoena.
There is more information here that we are not yet privy to.
Reply to Bob Powers post on April 5, 2015 at 7:40 am
>> Bob Powers said…
>>
>> Also at the Top of the Article’—-
>> QUOTE
>> When Willis reported the conversation to Paladini
>> and others, it set off a chain reaction of legal
>> actions beginning with…
>>
>> Reports to Arizona State Forestry Division
So what does THAT mean? Are they saying this was a ‘separate report’ to AZF over and above the lawyers representing them in the “AZF vs. ADOSH” case?
And what does REPORT mean?
A WRITTEN report? ( Where is THAT )
An EMAIL? ( To WHO… and WHEN )
A ‘phone call’ ( Ditto. To WHO? and WHEN? ).
>> Prescott city Council
Really? All of the same questions above apply.
Was it a WRITTEN report? EMAILS? Phone calls?
Private meetings?
How MANY members of the ‘Prescott City Council’ were being TOLD about what Brendan now wanted to “get off his chest”… and WHEN were they told it?
>> Arizona Attorney Generals Office.
That’s the only one we already knew about and *some* ( but not ALL? ) of that communicating is in the public ALJ Hearing File.
>> Bob Powers also said ( quoting the PDC article )…
>>
>> It also led authorities to interview other
>> potential witnesses
Again… really?… WHO?
Remember that Mike Dudley himself said that MULTIPLE people ( more than one ) had made the same ‘allegation’ ( Dudley’s word ) that they HEARD an argument between Marsh and Steed.
The most likely candidates for those other ‘multiple’ people testifying that they heard the argument has ALWAYS been at least the 3 Blue Ridge Hotshots who were moving the other GM vehicles the same time Brendan supposedly HEARD the argument.
The SAIT ( via Arizona Forestry contacts? ) WAS able to personally interview at least 4 Blue Ridge Hotshots. ( Frisby, Brown, Fueller, Ball ).
Are these ‘other potential witnesses’ that were supposedly interviewed lately the actual OTHER Blue Ridge Hotshots who were helping to move the vehicles?
Some pretty piss-poor reporting here.
>> Bob Powers also said…
>>
>> What did those other witness say that caused
>> a decision to subpoena McDonough.?
Exactly.
OR… is this just more ‘bad reporting’ and they are missing the fact that Arizona Forestry DID offer an ‘explanation’ to Judge Mosesso about WHY they felt it was imperative to subpoena Brendan for the February 26 re-scheduled depostion.
Actually… AZF gave Mosesso a number of reasons…
1) They had ( as of the end of January ) still had NOT heard back from McDonough’s lawyer ( David Shapiro ) about whether he and his client actually intended to ‘be there’ on February 26th.
2) Arizona Forestry wanted this deposition to be SURE and take place BEFORE the already-scheduled March 2, 3 global mediation meetings with the ‘wrongful death’ plaintiffs.
3) Arizona Forestry was very AFRAID that this ‘story’ about Brendan knowing more than he has ever said would ‘leak’ to the media BEFORE they could get Brendan under-oath and get the story first.
NOTE: It appears Arizona Forestry’s worst nightmare has now happened. The story is OUT… and they STILL haven’t gotten Brendan’s sworn deposition.
>> Bob Powers also said…
>>
>> What ever info they got from those witnesses may
>> have prompted the decision to try and subpoena.
Possibly… but Arizona Forestry makes no mention of any ‘other witnesses’ being able to back up Brendan’s information when they ASKED Judge Mosesso for the subpoena… so I actually doubt that was WHY they felt the need subpoena.
They gave MORE than enough reasons, anyway, for wanting to be SURE they got Brendan’s under-oath version of things BEFORE March 2,3 and BEFORE it ‘leaked’ to the press.
>> Bob Powers also said…
>>
>> There is more information here that we are
>> not yet privy to.
Without a doubt.
Yes The Article said that from what I gather Willis and Paladini reported Orally to the above reference unities.
And both agreed that the State Attorney should also be notified.
It is near the top of the news article.
I would also assume they were not releasing any witness names that were contacted Who ever the other Potential witnesses were. .
I was just quoting what was said in the article.
Which seems to indicate there are other witnesses.
Your guess is as good as mine.
I am betting in the next week or so we will be filling in the blanks. just a guess—-
Unities should be entities.
My only comment to the witnesses is what RTS and I have been saying all along there are more witness yet to be Identified.
From Prescott and other areas like Mike Dudley for one.
They were dam interested in his Utah taped discussion session——-
If Brendan made statements to any one it is admissible in a court of law.
Statements to Willis, other fire department employees etc.
Hearsay if a third party quotes what he herd from some one other than Brendon.
A lot of possibilities we will have to Waite and see.
Sometimes people screw up the results are just gosh awful. ……
I think it’s pretty much a given to all of us here….
The difference is, when you know a truth about the tragedy, but it takes 18 months or more for you to tell what you know, is stopping to a new level of “just gosh awful”….
The families have been searching for answers, crying many tears, losing many nights of sleep and praying to find out why? But there are people who know the truth but not talking…. SAD!!!!
Rocksteady –
Nothing is more painful than those 19 deaths, but if what seems to be the truth is, I do not believe you could have concocted a more horrible sequence of events leading up to those deaths – leaving just pain, anger and recriminations. The truth should definitely be known, but I can understand why maybe some hoped it could remain obscured (not to protect their own hides, but to protect the reputation of the GMHS). But the truth cannot remain obscured. I think it is eating at Brendan, it is quite likely eating away at some on Blue Ridge as well. Maybe others. When the truth comes out – maybe these people can begin to heal too. Nobody should carry that burden around.
I will bet money that it has gone BEYOND ‘frustration’ for Brian Frisby and the Blue Ridge Hotshots. I will bet it is now absolute red-hot ANGER that THEY still have to be fielding phone calls from the media just because Brendan McDonough won’t do the right thing AND their own US Forestry bosses have also ALWAYS had their own AGENDAS.
How do you think Brian Frisby felt when his phone rang the other night and he was asked to ‘comment’ on all this?
I’m sure he was very polite to the reporter on the phone when he just said “No comment”… but I will bet the room he was in turned many shades of BLUE the moment he put the phone down.
So it’s beyond just SADNESS.
The shenanigans that have always been going on here are now going to really piss some of these ‘players’ off… and that anger alone will probably cause any number of other things to happen at this point.
Wouldn’t surprise me at all to learn that after that phone call the other night from that reporter… Brian Frisby called his own BOSS and said “FIX THIS”. Either send them our unredacted statements… or give us permission to talk about it ourselves. Enough is enough”.
WTKTT – I can assure that did not happen (Frisby calling his boss and giving an ultimatum) this is being way handled way above his bosses (the Blue Ridge District FMO) boss (the Blue Ridge District Ranger) all the way up and BEYOND the Chief of the Forest Service and over to the Department of Agriculture Solicitor General and they will destroy Brian Frisby and everyone else who threatens the interests of the government in any way. Not the USFS, not the USDA…the FEDERAL GOVERNMENT, you know…as in Sovereign Immunity (The CROWN). If Uncle Sam had a dog in this fight, this fight would have been over a long time ago, and it would have been a very lop sided victory.
Nothing even remotely similar to this brouhaha have ever happened when there where dead federal firefighters and nothing like it ever will no matter how many dead firefighters are on the slope. And the families will get exactly what the Office of Workers Compensation Program say they get…and not one penny more, they never have and they never will.
Amen Gary
Down below, one of you said the news article about the alleged argument or order by Marsh was “skewed, flabby, reckless, inflammatory, faulty, sketchy, and, to be honest, not much of anything else.”
I found that to be an interesting comment, particularly given the source, so I did not want it to get lost in the weeds.
(In terms of my personal view, what struck me about the article is the alleged exchange with Paladini. I am stunned that Paladini would have that type of exchange with the media… on the record! It just does not fit (at least in my mind).)
LOL! Well…….since you mentioned it. I was about to copy my whole collections of thoughts up here to the top anyway, but I had to reboot. And then I found THIS!
So here’s my complete two cents worth:
Marti Reed says APRIL 4, 2015 AT 8:37 AM
Well, there IS some pretty twisted stuff in this article. There’s definitely an agenda or two playing out.
Not surprisingly.
The repeated and false (as I understand the documentation at this point) claim that ADOSH is responsible for the delay(s) in Brendan’s deposition(s) just demonstrates the most obvious one.
So I have to say I’ll believe it when I see it.
Which has been pretty much my whole approach all along.
Marti Reed says APRIL 4, 2015 AT 8:41 AM
It’s nice of AZCEntral to FINALLY mention the months-long (and very expensive, I’m sure) bar-room brawl going on in the back rooms.
It’s too bad they decided to yellow-journalism it.
Marti Reed says APRIL 4, 2015 AT 8:44 AM
Correction. I should have written brawls, not brawl. There’s definitely more than one going on.
Marti Reed says APRIL 4, 2015 AT 11:41 AM
I’m curious who tipped this off to the Republic. It says at the end that the Republic called Palladini, not the other way around.
Bob Powers says APRIL 4, 2015 AT 1:38 PM
I would suggest Marti that the Same people that have been talking to me and RTS. Just a guess, Also John has been working on this for some time. once the info was out there that the State was trying to get a deposition from McDonough the investigation flood gates opened. WHAT IS THE STORY HERE???????????????????
Marti Reed says APRIL 4, 2015 AT 1:54 PM
Well, that’s kind of why I’ve been saying for awhile now that the media should be covering the fight-almost-to-the-death (on the taxpayers millions of dollars) going on between AZFire and ADOSH.
So everybody said nothing would get covered til some “news” “broke.”
I guess they FINALLY decided to “break” the “news.”
This article is skewed, flabby, reckless, inflammatory, faulty, sketchy, and, to be honest, not much of anything else.
I can’t believe Yvonne put her name on it.
That’s why I’m not even going to come CLOSE to the big argument y’all are having upstream.
Marti Reed says APRIL 4, 2015 AT 1:56 PM
It’s not worth the oxygen, much less the bandwidth
Marti Reed says APRIL 4, 2015 AT 1:59 PM
This is totally NOT responsible journalism. Which is why this story is not worth fighting over.
Namaste.
So if you all want to fight over the juicy details of an article that pins the blame for the delays in the deposition of Brendan McDonough on ADOSH, go right ahead.
I have bigger fish to fry.
Marti Sorry but this is the big fish—
It confirms every thing I said last fall but from another source.
This is going to break wide open.
Read everything I have said today trying to clarify what Elizabeth has said.
I can do no more………..If you don’t believe me that’s OK just remember I am now not the only one saying it.
Marti This is for you–
Since I started this story from some ones information to me that was associated with the Yarnell Fire I have had some attacks on my character
so this release with every thing I have been saying for 6 months adds the additional facts to mine.
Paladini Said the same as I have been saying— to me that is more creditable fact. from some one that works for the City of Prescott.
Willis made a contact and told Paladini what he was told.
I have never talked to either one so they both have said McDonough unloaded the Shocking story.
To me this supports my information and also gives me some vindication for Those like Elizabeth calling me a liar or the mother of a GM crewmember verbally slapping me for saying the same thing.
Just where I am coming from I believe every thing Paladini said as I have been saying it all along he had no reason to lie. He may not have got the story completely strait. It would surprise me if he did not require Willis
to provide him with a written statement so we shall see.
If you don’t believe I was providing the truth almost the same information
as was released today then there is not much else I can say to you.
So we will wait and see I think this is far from over.
Bob, with all due respect, you and Fred Schoeffler have been wrong with your rumors more than you have been right. Brendan does NOT agree with what you said. Willis absolutely disagrees. And you said that ADOSH had already deposed Brendan months ago, which was totally incorrect. Moreover, you said that there was a video of an argument… but that was just more rumor and nonsense.
Dear God, Bob. With all due respect, your sources (presumably Fred Schoeffler, since the Sawtooth IHC Supt. has made clear that he does not know you or associate with you) have been wrong repeatedly. No wonder Mrs. Pfingston lost her patience with you, as did Mr. Turbyfill, as have others. One person has spoken with Paladini, and that person is not you.
I will say one more time you do not know shit..
As far as the Sawtooth HS Superintendent Mike Krupski I know him have spoken with him and been and socialized with him at 2 retirement parties this past year. And I have talked with him the past 2 years since he took over the Crew. So I have no clue where you are getting that BS..
We have already been thru the other BS And discussed it severial times we shall see what we shall see.
ay be you should reply to severial questions I have asked you today and in the past.
Mrs. Pfingston lost her patience over what I said which was the same thing said in the article today. The truth some times hurts
That is not my fault.
Find another player I am not playing your game any more—-
Bob.
I really really trust and respect you.
You said:
“Since I started this story from some ones information to me that was associated with the Yarnell Fire I have had some attacks on my character.”
And I totally get that. I’ve been dismayed by that also. Along with a whole bunch of other things. Which I’m sure you and TTWARE and WTKTT and a few others know exactly what I’m/we’re talking about.
My PROBLEM with this ARTICLE, in the credibility zone, kicked me right away when half of it was painting a picture of ADOSH being the CAUSE of Brendan’s deposition being DELAYED.
That is totally a bunch of HOOOOOEY.
That told me, right away, that there was a serious BIAS behind it.
AZCentral has every bit of access we do to the ADF vs ADOSH documentation. That documentation ABSOLUTELY DOES NOT SUPPORT the general narrative AZCentral is pushing (or at least buying into) in this article.
Whose interest is being served by this narrative? Arizona Department of Forestry’s.
In saying this, I am not meaning to say I doubt your sources.
I’m just doubting the credibility of the journalism in this article.
I seriously don’t know what’s going on here, but I seriously don’t trust it, either.
I have often written about the stage being set upon which these fire-fighters were operating. Because of that, I’ve always said, LOOK UP!!!
What is the stage upon which this article is being written?
Apparently a stage set by the Arizona Department of Forestry and it’s a stage being manufactured using stuff that isn’t true ala their fight with ADOSH.
Otherwise, why would half of this article be about ADOSH delaying Brendan’s deposition when that, actually, is totally untrue?
So that’s where my basic serious dubiousness about this article is coming from.
It’s not coming from any kind of fundamental distrust of you.
That’s why I said, when I see it I will believe it, and that that’s ALWAYS been my own personal orientation regarding this whole thing.
I can’t maintain any kind of sanity evaluating any of this without that basic orientation.
I don’t KNOW anything that I don’t KNOW. And I do my share of speculation, but I try to keep it based, as much as I possibly can, on what I KNOW.
I KNOW that this article is fundamentally incorrect in its narrative regarding ADOSH.
That, frankly, is all I KNOW.
I DON’T KNOW anything else that is being narrated in this article.
And, frankly, at this point, all things considered, I have to admit I don’t particularly believe any specific thing The City of Prescott’s Lawyer says. Maybe I’m mistaken to feel that way, right now. I DON’T KNOW.
When I said I had bigger fish to fry, that didn’t mean I didn’t think this story was not important…………
But I had personally decided it was IMPERATIVE to try to get to the bottom of the whole ICMA report/dispute, which I think is a root issue in this whole thing also (including perhaps various things playing themselves out in this article), and I had decided that was my first priority for this day.
Which I kept working on in spite of all of this drama, as I’ve posted downstream.
Again, I’m trying to drill down into what is possible to KNOW.
You KNOW your sources. I DON’T KNOW them. That doesn’t mean I don’t take you seriously. It just means I can’t KNOW the accuracy of what you KNOW.
So that is why I am perfectly comfortable not relying on the “truthiness” of this article.
When a great deal of it I KNOW isn’t TRUE, that makes me hesitate relying on it.
I am SURE this will eventually lead to more stuff getting exposed. and more dust flying around and eventually settling, and more KNOWABLE data eventually emerging.
Until that happens, I have NO OPINION about the various narratives that are currently swirling around here around it except for THE FACT that a significant chunk of this story is NOT TRUE.
Namaste.
IMHO. And I’ll probably regret writing this.
Given the stage this article is being written upon.
It is, all things considered, at this point, given how AZ Dept of Forestry has handled this whole thing, very muchly in their interest, at this critical time, to make Eric Marsh their Fall Guy.
Even given the fact that he was, on June 30, 2013, a part of their Incident Management Team as a Division Supervisor. He’s still ONE PERSON, to deflect their overall responsibility to have managed this fire competently, which they most certainly didn’t, which we have documented month after month here.
They are playing SERIOUS HARDBALL right now. And AZCentral/Arizona Republic is playing right into that strategy.
Does Eric deserve that? I DON’T KNOW.
I DON’T KNOW what happened.
Arizona State Fire has a HUGE INTEREST, right now, given the breakdown in the Settlement Negotiations, in doing what ever they can (including trying, unsuccessfully, to subpoena Marshall Krotenberg’s last five years worth of employment records) to cover up their own responsibility in the various debacles regarding this fire that we have documented month after month here.
So, yes, maybe it is true that Eric, or Jesse, or some combination of Eric and/vs Jesse ordered the crew to head down into that bowl full of explosives that they headed down into.
And maybe Eric was somewhere near the Boulder Springs Ranch when that was all happening (but we STILL have NO PROOF of that–so how come it is that this article states that as some kind of FACT????).
My point in all of this is that it behooves us to remember that Arizona Department of Forestry has a HUGE VESTED INTEREST RIGHT NOW in divesting themselves (no matter what they have to do in order to do that) of any kind of remote responsibility regarding their mismanagement of this entire fire and any kind of danger they (by either sins of commission or omission) put the fire-fighters on that fire into.
I just have to say, all things considered, that’s where I think THIS ARTICLE is coming from.
Whether or not various purported details in it are true or not true.
Got you Thanks—and Thanks
>> Marti said…
>>
>> My PROBLEM with this ARTICLE, in the credibility
>> zone, kicked me right away when half of it was
>> painting a picture of ADOSH being the CAUSE of
>> Brendan’s deposition being DELAYED.
>>
>> That is totally a bunch of HOOOOOEY.
I totally agree that this particular article is NOT “Journalism finest hour”… but probably for different reasons.
I just don’t like the fact that the reporter didn’t even bother to ask Paladini if any of these details he was reporting came from his OWN conversations with Brendan… or whether it was ONLY all coming from Willis.
It is still ‘not credible’ to me that the City Attorney for Prescott would then be acting as the official ‘liason’ between a former PFD firefighter and the State Attorney General’s office for coordinating all the details of the ‘agreed upon’ deposition… WITHOUT him having his OWN conversations with McDonough about this deposition and the expected CONTENT of it.
As far as YOUR ( primary? ) reason for disliking the reporting… I think it’s worth pointing out that while badly reported… the statement that ADOSH tried to DELAY the first scheduled deposition with McDonough is TRUE. They DID.
But again… simply just lousy reporting.
ADOSH was NOT AGAINST the deposition itself taking place. They were only objecting to the TIMING of it.
Arizona Forestry wanted it to happen on November 26, 2014… BEFORE the actual already-in-place deadline of December 13, 2014 for both ADOSH and Arizona Forestry to ‘exchange discovery documents’.
ADOSH simply wanted the Brendan McDonough deposition to wait until AFTER that… for the simple reason that they thought that might produce a BETTER interview and a BETTER chance at ‘asking all the right questions’ of Brendan during that deposition.
The COMPROMISE ( and the reason Judge Mosesso declined ADOSH’s request for another deposition date ) was that the Arizona Forestry lawyers had to make every promise they could that Brendan would consent to a SECOND deposition… if any information they didn’t know on November 26 came to light in the ‘document exchange’ on December 13.
The ALJ documents then indicated that Bredan totally AGREED to this possibility of a SECOND ‘under-oath’ deposition, if necessary.
Again… shitty reporting… because right there in black and white is PROOF that even the Arizona Forestry lawyers were in DIRECT CONTACT with Brendan about this ‘despostion’ and the expected CONTENT.
This story isn’t near over.
It isn’t just about what ‘Willis might have told Paladini’.
There is HARD evidence all over the place that even after that conversation between Paladini and Willis… all kinds of OTHER people were now ‘in the loop’ and hearing possibly even MORE details directly from Brendan.
Even Arizona Forestry attorney David Selden seemed to know a LOT more than he was saying to Judge Mosesso in those ALJ Hearing documents.
I wonder now if even the LAWYERS are LAWYERING UP.
What a mess.
Also True Paladini as City Lawyer represents the City Employees which at the Time would have included
McDonough even though he no longer worked there he was under that coverage because he was employed during and after the Accident.
I would bet Paladini talked to him and advised he get a personal Lawyer.
I also can not believe that Paladini did not have Willis wright a statement about his conversation with McDonough it is standard practice. From what I know working for a City for 4 Years and the county. Witnesses and others that have info are always required to submit a written copy. That is the way the lawyers work.
Good point. If Willis was still the actual “Wildland Supervisor” when this ‘conference’ he had with Paladini took place… then there was a member of PFD management OFFICIALLY reporting about something that still affects the City of Prescott to the City Attorney himself…
…and that City Attorney didn’t ask for his ‘written report’ about it… as “Wildland Division Chief”?
Something is seriously ‘not right’ there, as well.
It’s also seriously mysterious why this would all now be ‘reported’ in the media… but no reporter lifted a finger to even get the exact DATE when this all happened?
The article says that Willis decided to give Brendan (quote) “the weekend” to find a way to get the information out… or Willis would feel compelled to do that himself.
Which ‘weekend’?
That statement suggest that Brendan talked to Willis on a Friday.
Which Friday?
Did all this go down right BEFORE Brendan’s first scheduled deposition ( Like… the WEEKEND just before it? )… and that is when someone ( Willis? Paladini? ) advised Brendan he better get a CRIMINAL attorney with experience handling (possible) ‘obstructing and investigation’ charges?
And THAT is what led to Brendan having to cancel his first deposition… because Shapiro was too busy to make it on such short notice?
I wondered the same thing for about one second and then I realized Paladini is doing what he is doing to hurt and discredit Willis because Paladini and his bosses at the city are now in this back and forth with Willis is mad at the city because they are eliminating his dream and the city is mad at Willis that he is now turning on them.
I guess Paladini doesn’t have the same values you do as a lawyer. Now there is an oxymoron…lawyer and values. What do you think Elizabeth?
Gary, my impression of Mr. Paladini has been that he is a smart, reputable, and ethical fellow. In terms of any beef he might or might not have with Darrell Willis, let me simply say this: Mr. Paladini has been a practicing lawyer in the municipal realm for some time, so I suspect that he has a thick skin (given the nature of small-town politics), such that I imagine he could weather whatever Darrell Willis and others toss at him without lashing out.
I think that it is premature to judge anything related to that AZ Republic article at this point. I say this in part based on what I am hearing from my friends or colleagues who are close to this matter. If I could say more to you without violating confidences, I assure you that I would. I apologize for being cryptic.
Well OK then, I was just taking a wild guess. I just have a natural distrust of management (even though I were one) the system (even though I was a cog in it), “they” (even though I was them) the legal system (even though I was part of it for 25 years) and the government (which I once was a minion of and a flunky for)…as you have probably already figured out. I met the enemy a long time ago and the enemy was me.
And meanwhile, back at the ranch.
I’ve begun searching for the minutes of the Prescott City Council meetings that include discussion and decisions regarding the ICMA “recommendations” regarding the Fire Department.
So far, the past two related meetings, the ones on March 26 and March 10 have no minutes no where of them.
Still working my way back in time. I got back to the November 4 meeting when my Adobe Reader ineplicably quit working for the first time ever, that I can remember. Guess I’ll have to reboot.
If you want to search, too, the website is here:
City of Prescott City Council Meetings:
http://prescottaz.suiteonemedia.com/web/site.aspx
So here are the minutes of the infamous November 4 meeting, where Chief Light presented the “recommendations” of the analysis.
http://prescottaz.suiteonemedia.com/Web/GenFile.aspx?ad=1586
I’m just reading it right now.
Note: I’ve posted downstream some of the other more recent documents/powerpoints that I find relevant to this whole thing.
Unfortunately I haven’t found, so far, the powerpoint presentation he gave, so this narrative, via these minutes, is a bit sketchy and confusing.
Now that I’ve figured out how to find powerpoint presentations — they’re NOT with the minutes, they generally ARE with the Agenda (regular meeting link) I went back and looked at that November 4 2014 meeting.
The powerpoint is NOT THERE.
So here’s the ICMA Report that was presented to the Prescott City Council on August 26, 2014. Haven’t read it yet, just posting things.
“ICMA Data Analysis – Fire and EMS”
http://prescottaz.suiteonemedia.com/Web/GenFile.aspx?ad=1343
Here’s the page for that meeting that includes links to the Report, the PowerPoint Presentation, and the Agenda Memo.
Well I think it will lead there. These meeting pages are REALLY confusing.
8/26/2015 Special Meeting
javascript:LaunchPlayer(530,-1,-1,-1,0);
OK, that didn’t work. So what you have to do to get to the page for the 8/26/2014 meeting is go to the City Council Page and just go to the Special Meeting 08/26/2014 1:00 PM link on the page(s).
Click on that and a separate window will pop up with the page with the three links on it.
To read the MINUTES for that meeting you have to hunt and hunt and eventually find them inside the Name link for the Regular Voting Meeting 09/23/2014 1:30 PM. And click on the August 26 Special Meeting MInutes.
I’ll save you the trouble. Here are the minutes for the August 26 Special Meeting Minutes:
http://prescottaz.suiteonemedia.com/Web/GenFile.aspx?ad=1437
Now I’ll go see if the minutes actually reflect the report and the powerpoint.
One would think that as important as all of this, and how ICMA and, sometimes the mayor and the City Council, have reiterated that this is all supposed to be happening in a
COMMUNITY CONVERSATION
…….there would be an easier way to find all this stuff. But so far I haven’t discovered one.
Especially given that the CONTRACT specifically says:
“15. All work products of the Professional for this Project are instruments of service for this Project only
and shall remain the property of the City whether the Project is completed or not. All plans, drawings,
specifications, data maps, studies and other information, including all copies thereof, furnished by the
City shall remain the property of the City. They are not to be used on other work, and, with the
exception of this Agreement, are to be returned to the City on request or at the completion of the
work.”
Apparently the taxpayers must not be considered to be part of “the City.”
The Description, remember, of the Project, including The Contract, is here:
http://prescottaz.suiteonemedia.com/Web/UserControls/DocPreview.aspx?p=1&aoid=113
You have to scroll a long long long ways down through this, but
IT’S ALL THERE IN BLACK AND WHITE
It might actually be better to enter into this analysis/report via the PowerPoint, which is here:
http://prescottaz.suiteonemedia.com/Web/GenFile.aspx?ad=1342
So it seems to me the most important pieces of this PowerPoint are pages 35 and 36.
Page 35 shows the “Proposed PFD Organizational Chart.” That puts “Wildland Fire Suppression Function” under Emergency Service Delivery Branch (Suppression/EMS” which has under it Three Battalion Chiefs (A Shift, B shift, and C shift).
That assumes, as it says on Page 32 under Wildland Analysis that:
“–Fuels mitigation staff is not deployed to active wildfire scenes.”
And, on Page 33:
“•Wildland fire preparedness is the state of both prevention and being ready to provide an appropriate response to wildland fires based on identified objectives.
–Preparedness requires identifying necessary firefighting capabilities and implementing coordinated wildland prevention programs to develop those capabilities.”
Which leads to, on Page 34:
“ICMA supports the Fire Chief’s proposed organizational restructuring that:
–Consolidates the wildland suppression function with the operations functions under the command of a single division chief.”
There is nothing here, under this category that describes what kinds of crews are “assumed” to be doing “wildland suppression.”
So Page 36 says:
“Response to Wildfires
•Utilize the Prescott Basin Response Model
•Existing Prescott on-duty structural/shift personnel will respond as they always have
•Automatic/Mutual aid companies deployed on initial alarm
•Forest Service contacted and statewide mutual aid requested as necessary
•Resources increased as situation progresses or if bringing the fire under control is not successful.”
I don’t know what the “Prescott Basin Response Model” is.
And, I guess the key to what kind of crews Prescott will be utilizing is the existing Prescott on-duty structural/ shift personnel responding as they always have.
So, good luck Prescott, when it comes to responding to future Indian Fires, Doce Fires and West Spruce fires!!!
And there you have it.
I’d love Gary’s perspective on this.
This is about the epitome of having structural fire-fighters doing the majority of wildland fire-fighting.
But then, maybe Prescott doesn’t need wildland fire-fighters doing wildland fire-fighting because WAIT WE HAVE Prescott IHC for that kinda stuff!!!!!!
So, anyway, This, apparently, is the basis for Prescott’s current re-organizational planning for wildland fire-fighting, for whatever it’s worth.
I still haven’t dug into the report itself, to see if it actually looks at what the Granite Mountain IHC was doing.
I’m kind of doubting that it does, all things considered.
And maybe these recommendations are right and adequate. Maybe Prescott doesn’t have all that much of its own “wildland” to do “wildland fire-fighting on” and when something crops up, it’s usually on someone else’s land, or at least it eventually gets there.
Namaste.
And I haven’t even gone into Fuels Reduction, which is a WHOLE NUTHER ballgame.
The new article regarding Marsh and Steed is perplexing for at least two reasons:
1. If Marsh was near the BSR – which is what Bob Powers and his sources are saying – and Marsh could get back in to the deployment valley to get to the guys, why couldn’t the guys get to Marsh?
2. *BOTH* Brendan McDonough and Darrell Willis state that the narrative about the alleged “argument” (attributed by the article to Jon Paladini) is INACCURATE. Brendan is a first-hand witness to what was said or not said, and Willis and Paladini are not. Therefore, the fact that Brendan disagrees with the story being recited by the media is noteworthy.
Willis and McD are saying the argument is not accurate, however neither is adamantly denying that an argument occurred.
It sounds like the media release hit a nerve and I am sure more digging into the investigation to find out the truth .
I hope the truth finally comes out.
Of course McD disagrees, if he said it was all true, he would be branded by all as a coward, as he had very key information that would have assisted the investigations, but did not, even though he has been scheduled twice to tell the truth.
RS, you say “Neither is adamantly denying that an argument occurred.” Well, Willis wouldn’t know either way, and we don’t know if Brendan denied it. We have no idea how much Brendan said to the reporters that they chose not to publish. My view is that Brendan does not interview well.
I am stunned that you, of all people, would try to prematurely judge Brendan before all of the facts are out.
To that end, we do not know if *BRENDAN* canceled the second deposition. We certainly know that he did NOT cancel the first!
Not prematurely judging, just saying how it looks at face value.
She is Defiantly a Defense Lawyer clamming to the end. Innocent, Innocent
The information is out there and way more than his testimony.
Again what would he tell Willis that was so shocking and new to him that he went to Paladini with the info and it was so astounding that Paladini
Talked to the City Council.. They all kept it quiet for the past 6 months.
There is a lot here to ask us not to believe what’s being said??????
There has also been a lot of confirmed talk about what was released this morning, that would lead many to believe there is validity here whether word for word or in general.
Bob, when you say “what was released this morning,” what are you talking about?
And I am not trying to defend Brendan at all. Nor am I trying to defend Eric Marsh. Rather, I am trying to avoid giving Brendan a stroke prematurely, and I am trying to avoid pointing the finger at Eric prematurely. That is all. I have no dog in the fight, but, if you and RS think that crucifying Brendan is going to make him come forward, you are 100% WRONG. So, if you think he knows more, and you want him to tell it, common sense would suggest that you should treat him a bit more carefully rather than crucifying him on here.
First Poor Brendan is a grownup he has already told his information to Willis if he is not deposed he will be or called to the witness stand. He shocked Willis what else but telling the world dose he need to do? Once he laid it on the table he has opened the preverbal worm can. Hiding it in the first place is bad enough. Like it or not it is shocking according to Willis.
Willis can also be called because first hand he was told by Brendan. That makes it difficult to change stories on a witness stand.
We also have the unknown Blue Ridge information.
There is no crucifying here, with the story today that I was referring to he has information that he needs to provide.
The statements by Willis that said he was shocked leaves little room to wiggle What else would be shocking than what was said????? Please tell me if there is something else as shocking as what was released.
Again no matter what the Crew died because of decisions made by their supervisors. That is still the bottom line.
What was released this morning, Bob? Documents or videos or something?
Maybe a bit of public pressure from the news released today will encourage McD and Willis will tell everything.
Pretty obvious the truth is about to come out
Playing games with me is going nowhere.
The news story was released. Verifying the information I had that was given to me last fall by someone who had first hand info some of which is still out there. I will not divulge his name,
You said that never happened too but there it is in Black and white today almost word for word that I talked about on here.
Released by a lawyer, even though second hand.
Coincidence or FACT?
Liz, I call him McD rather than Brendan, not out of disrespect, I am doing this via my smartphone and I am not a great typer, especially on such a small keyboard
Use some common since here and reed what I sad below.
—If they left at or near the same time from different direction they would meet some place in the middle———–
The distance to the deployment site was over 1/3 of a mile from BSR Marsh could not possibly run to the crew at the time the fire was in front of them nor could the crew run to the BSR (Ranch) when they were confronted with the fire. It was to late.
What can be more simpler than that it is not rocket science———-
Inaccurate can mean many things not all discrediting the evidence……….
NOTE—-Willis was so disturbed by the information he told what he knew—
What was so disturbing??????
The fact that Steed did not want to leave the black?????
The Fact that Steed thought it was a Bad Idea but did it any way??????
The possibility that Marsh ordered Steed and the Crew to leave the black?????
What else could disturb him so bad that he gave McDonough a week to come clean then went to the City Lawyer??????
There has already been mention of an argument by Mike Dudley.
Do we now know the content that was alluded to by Dudley?????
From reliable sources way back last year from reliable sources in side the FS community
Myself and RTS were hearing the same Info.
I believe there is more info that will now come out Confirming what has been released.
Maybe you should ask why—
McDonough Got a highly expensive Defense Lawyer that handles criminal cases.
Why did Willis Retire just before this article came out?????
Is Willis Lawyered up as well????
Disagrees with the Story??? Some fine points, Specifics, or words?????
I think we all know that the both of them would like to protect there friends,
as long as they do not go on the witness stand they do not have to release any thing.
If they end up in court then they can through them self’s on the mercy of the court that it was there friends they were protecting, friends and family members because they were very close to the crew.
Been done before will be again.
HOlY COW.
Marsh at the ranch. ORDERED Steed to bring the boys down.
From today’s AZ Republic:
http://www.azcentral.com/story/news/arizona/investigations/2015/04/04/yarnell-fire-new-account-hotshot-deaths/25284535/
Brendan and Willis are *BOTH* indicating that that is not true, right?
Well for those of you that attacked me and RTS Read the news report.
Willis acknowledges it and McDonough is Lawyered Up.
Every thing we broke and released on here was Fact.
It is a terrible thing but again to the Families.
The Truth is some times not what we would like it to be. I have been there in denial in my past.—— For giving is also very important for many reasons
To John thanks for believing we had uncovered something and put an article out there that put McDonough on the hot seat.
Thanks to those sources that talked with me and RTS about this untold event I am sure more will break over the coming days.
To Elizabeth I believe we had and still have better sources than you your continued attack on Me and RTS to say our information was wrong was shameful and discouraging to say the least. You have asked for apologies from us now its your turn but I am not holding my breath
Bob, Brendan was the first-hand witness. And Brendan is saying that Paladini got it wrong. Paladini is, at best, a THIRD-hand witness, and Brendan is allegedly a first-hand witness. Therefore, in my mind, if Brendan is saying that Paladini got it wrong, then I am inclined to believe Brendan!
You and Fred Schoeffler put out rumors, and, unless and until Brendan himself speaks, your rumors remain as RUMORS. It is no secret that Fred Schoeffler has been spreading rumors to the media about the Yarnell Hill Fire tragedy (apparently despite the USFS’s instructions regarding media contacts).
RIGHT————-Enjoy your self
And by the way he was not on the Fire and not under any restrictions by the FS,
We are both Retired and not subject to those restrictions.
Checkmate
Bob, why would both Brendan and Willis argue with what Paladini said if what Paladini said was 100% accurate? To be clear, I do not think that Paladini is lying, but, rather, I have to wonder if something got lost in translation. Until Brendan himself speaks publicly, all of this is rumor and second-hand gossip.
One more thing: If things actually did happen as the AZRepublic story suggests, then how could Marsh get to the crew but the crew could not get to Marsh (at the safety of the ranch)? How does that actually work?
Simple Marsh started back after the crew was ordered down. When they left the black Marsh headed back up to tie in with them.
Odds are he knew the fire was pushing toward them and wanted to hurry them up.
All guesses on my part but plausible.
Wow.
More to come, I am sure, but if its true…..WOW! !!
Bob, your theory perplexes me: If Marsh could get back to THEM from the ranch, why couldn’t they get to MARSH at (or near) the ranch?
Wow Dumb Question.—–
As I just said if they left from 2 seperiate points at or close to the same time then calculations say they would meet some place in the middle.
The crew of 18 would take longer going down thru the Brush filled canyon than 1 person coming back up thru as you can see a slight flat slope that may have had less brush to contend with for Marsh still my conclusion.
We know for sure Marsh was with the crew or within a min. of being with them at the first we are in front of the flaming front.
At that point they were out of time.
As we have discussed here. There is no actual facts to say that Marsh was actually at BSR or maybe he was near it.— We still have a lot of open information to tie up.
Willis and McDonough playing specific word games with the facts is expected. They are trying to protect GM’s image as long as they can.
Your a Lawyer what would you tell them??????
Don’t make any statements to the media????
We do not know yet if Willis is also Lawyered up???? Time will tell now…..
Willis said that the “revelations were so shocking” that he had to tell someone else. Willis himself said ‘shocking.” Quote. “So Shocking”. We know because we heard for ourselves that Steed and Marsh had a conversation about “comfort levels.” Now unless you believe that they were talking about the beds at a Holiday Inn Express, it points directly to the beginning of a longer conversation about Steed leading the guys down that hill. It fits. There are 3 scenerios here as I see them. 1) Marsh ordered them down. (That would be shocking information. 2) Steed demanded to come down against Marsh’s orders (That would be shocking). 3) Steed and Marsh both agreed that the guys should move. That would NOT be shocking. Since that is what they did, you would assume that it was a mutual decision. My guess is that McDonough and Willis are still trying to protect Marsh’s reputation. Can’t blame them I guess but the cats out of the bag now.
Elizabeth, even I can figure out how Marsh made it to the deployment site, but the guys couldn’t get there. The fire swept up behind him-coming around that mountain. Remember the ROS was astronomical at that point. My guess is that Marsh knew as he was headed backwards that the fire was closing in to his right and would soon be behind him, but what was he going to do? Just stand there and watch the guys get trapped? It’s like soldiers who run headfirst into almost certain death to rescue a fellow wounded soldier. Sometimes you make it and get a Medal of Freedom at the White House–sometimes you die and your family accepts on your behalf because you are dead. .
Well, there IS some pretty twisted stuff in this article. There’s definitely an agenda or two playing out.
Not surprisingly.
The repeated and false (as I understand the documentation at this point) claim that ADOSH is responsible for the delay(s) in Brendan’s deposition(s) just demonstrates the most obvious one.
So I have to say I’ll believe it when I see it.
Which has been pretty much my whole approach all along.
It’s nice of AZCEntral to FINALLY mention the months-long (and very expensive, I’m sure) bar-room brawl going on in the back rooms.
It’s too bad they decided to yellow-journalism it.
Correction. I should have written brawls, not brawl. There’s definitely more than one going on.
I’m curious who tipped this off to the Republic. It says at the end that the Republic called Palladini, not the other way around.
I would suggest Marti that the Same people that have been talking to me and RTS. Just a guess, Also John has been working on this for some time.
once the info was out there that the State was trying to get a deposition
from McDonough the investigation flood gates opened.
WHAT IS THE STORY HERE???????????????????
Well, that’s kind of why I’ve been saying for awhile now that the media should be covering the fight-almost-to-the-death (on the taxpayers millions of dollars) going on between AZFire and ADOSH.
So everybody said nothing would get covered til some “news” “broke.”
I guess they FINALLY decided to “break” the “news.”
This article is skewed, flabby, reckless, inflammatory, faulty, sketchy, and, to be honest, not much of anything else.
I can’t believe Yvonne put her name on it.
That’s why I’m not even going to come CLOSE to the big argument y’all are having upstream.
It’s not worth the oxygen, much less the bandwidth.
This is totally NOT responsible journalism.
Which is why this story is not worth fighting over.
However, if the allegations are true, (which we have all been thinking for the past 18 months), it could send the story in a whole new direction.
Marti said,”Who would love to be able to go into Photoshop and be able to clone Tony Sciacca about ten times over…….
…..and I’m really curious about what Gary Olson would think about that”
I can’t figure out the question?
LOL!
Cloning in Photoshop is a time-honored way of doing lots of things to things in a photograph, including getting rid of things you don’t want but also including multiplying things you do want.
On a more seriously serious level. Everything I have read regarding everything Tony Sciacca has Incident Commanded has left me sitting back and thinking, “Wow. Brilliant.”
Including what I wrote below regarding the 2013 Jaroso Fire in New Mexico.
And what I have written periodically about the 2014 Slide Fire. And what others have documented regarding the Whitewater-Baldy Fire in the Gila in 2012 (where Granite Mountain IHC was photographed). And then there was the Doce Fire.
And a couple of nights ago I just sat here thinking, deeply and almost painfully soberly, I REALLY think if Tony Sciacca had been properly (and thus timely) dispatched to the Yarnell Fire as the Safety Officer, I REALLY think what happened on June 30 wouldn’t have happened.
Everything I have seen of him indicates someone who is deeply committed to fire-fighter safety as a number one priority, no matter what, on all the fires he has commanded.
And who is, also, a brilliant strategist when it comes to managing even some REALLY complex fires.
So I have to admit, when I wrote that I was wondering what your impression is of him. I really respect your opinions about things. And people.
I know, and share, your deep pain about what happened here.
And it pained me deeply when I had that thought, that if Tony had actually made it to the Yarnell Fire when he should have (and could have if it hadn’t been screwed up via, apparently, the ordering system) his influence could have SERIOUSLY changed how things happened/didn’t happen regarding the safety of, not only the Granite Mountain Hotshots, but a bunch of other people whose safety was compromised to the point of endangerment on this fire.
Which leads me to think that, in this time when the USFS talks safety but doesn’t walk it, and the regional management cuts corners every which way they can………
……maybe “cloning” somebody like a Tony Sciacca might, hypothetically (I know this is a completely impossible fantasy but it expresses a serious value) be something really worth valuing.
As in “We need more people like Tony Sciacca.”
And PS I don’t want to romanticize or demonize anything/anybody. I’m really trying to stay away from romanticizing/demonizing in a pursuit to ferret out, in the midst of human complexity…..
…..what then do we need to do.
I don’t want to romanticize Tony Sciacca. But I really do see him, in all of this, as someone who we need more people “like.” And I’m wondering what you think of that.
Yes, I know Tony from back in the day when we were both hotshot foreman, he was with the Prescott Hotshots and I was with Happy Jack, although I don’t know him well.
Tony has always had a solid, highly competent reputation whatever he was doing. And he went right up the ladder to very near the top (I don’t think he was ever a Type I IC, but I might be wrong) in the alternative world of fire teams while doing the same in the real world of fire management on the Prescott National Forest….and he was able to do it without transferring anywhere (which is unusual) so yes…he is a good…even great wildland firefighter.
**
** PRESCOTT CITY ATTORNEY JON PALADINI HAS FINISHED HIS
** ‘INVESTIGATION’ REGARDING THE ICMA REPORT.
In a nutshell… Paladini says…
“We can find no evidence of malice, wrongful intent, improper influence or ‘tampering’.”
According to the following Prescott eNews article… one of the ‘surprises’ here is that YES… the ‘final draft’ was a lot different from the ‘first draft’… but despite what Willis seemed to be saying in his resignation letter… BOTH the ‘first’ and the ‘final’ drafts recommended that Prescott actually KEEP the “Wildland Division”.
Apparently… the decision to DISSOLVE the “Wildland Divsion” came AFTER the report, and was not even one of the report’s actual recommendations.
So I’m sure there is ‘more to come’ on this.
Here is the Prescott eNews article…
http://www.prescottenews.com/index.php/news/current-news/item/25217-city-attorney-paladini-completes-investigation-of-icma-tampering
Here is the ‘Prescott Daily Courier’ (PDC) article covering the same story…
http://dcourier.com/main.asp?SectionID=1&SubSectionID=1086&ArticleID=143678&TM=6113.818
The PDC was able to augment their report with some (new) comments from Darrell Willis.
From PDC the article…
————————————————————————
Former Fire Division Chief Darrell Willis, who made the claims against the city, says Paladini’s inquiry did not go deep enough, and failed to answer the basic question.
“I don’t think it was a thorough review,” Willis said Wednesday morning.
“They never talked to me.”
————————————————————————
As it turns out… the ICMA didn’t even have the expertise to ‘evaluate’ a ‘Wildland Division’ as part of a Municpal Fire department and budget… so they sub-contracted some ‘wildland expert’ guy named Joe Stutler.
It was, apparently, some EMAILS that Willis had exchanged with this Sutler guy that led Willis to believe the ‘Wildland’ part of the report was being ‘monkeyed with’.
So Willis still maintains the City first monkeyed with the report… and THEN used it as an ‘excuse’ to get rid of the “Granite Mountain Hotshots” organization and, indeed, the entire “Wildland Division” of the Fire department itself.
Followup….
Apparently, it all comes down to this.
Some WORDS got changed in one paragraph between the INITIAL report ( which contained Joe Stutler’s evaluation ) and the FINAL report.
From the SIDEBAR in the PDC article linked to above…
———————————————————————————-
The draft report that wildland expert Joe Stutler prepared in March 2014 recommends that the city: “Maintain the Wildland Fire Division with the Prescott Fire Department to provide both leadership and successional planning for the division.”
By the time the report went to the City Council in August 2014, the recommendation had been changed to: “Maintain the wildland fire component (e.g. training, certification, and initial attack response utilizing existing suppression firefighters), within the PFD to provide both leadership and successful planning efforts for wildland operations.”
————————————————————————–
Prescott City Attorney Jon Paladini still hasn’t really explained HOW ‘Paragraph 1’ above eventually turned into ‘Paragraph 2’.
BOTH versions are obviously ‘recommending’ that Prescott continue a ‘Wildfire component’ as part of the Fire Department… but the word ‘Division’ was not in the final draft.
NEITHER version says anything about whether Prescott needs ( or has ever needed ) a ‘Type 1 Hotshot Crew’ operating out of the City garages.
There is also this in the ‘final version’….
“Maintain the wildland fire component (e.g. training, certification, and initial attack response utilizing EXISTING suppression firefighters”
That is pretty much the ‘scenario’ that Marti and I were discussing below.
Use the EXISTING firefighters you have… and make sure they have the ‘special’ training needed to form themselves into a valid ‘Type 2 IA’ Crew on-demand and as-needed.
That would probably WORK for Prescott ( and solve salary and liability issues )… but that’s (apparently) NOT what Darrell Willis thinks qualifies as “Making sure the dead have not died in vain”.
More to come on this… I’m sure.
WTK, have you found any way to find these actual documents?
All we’re getting is various other peoples’ interpretations of them.
Also, the contract report (powerpoint slide thingy I posted downstream) says that ALL the documents and whatever that they collect/generate in the course of the analysis belong to the City to be made PUBLIC. So that that PUBLIC conversation that they repeatedly call for can actually happen on an informed basis.
This thing is just all smoke and mirrors, compared to what they contracted with the City to do, it seems to me.
VERY interesting. Thanks!
To go back a little on IHC Initial Attack use—–
In Idaho as in the Great Basin’, Arizona Etc. we because of large tracks of Sage Brush have two types of
Initial attack Small Lightning 1/4 acre to running burns of 10 to 100 acres for initial attack.
So Yes IHC’s are used on IA often as a full crew. My point on small starts is the dist. IA crews , Helitack
Crews and the sticks of smoke jumpers here in Idaho are used for those small 2 to 5 man Fires.
Seldom are HOT Shots used to IA small 2 to 5 man Fires they are more than likely already headed to a larger Fire where more resources are needed. Once you start pulling 2 or more FF off a HS crew the crew as a whole is no longer available. As a Dispatch you have to make that choice and generally the Region is involved. Your taking a Type 1 crew out of rotation which is a serious thing at certain times of the year.
Management Fires are a lot more complicated than just letting them burn to reduce the fuel.
They take a management plan. normally you do not allow a management burn close to a urban interface your banking on not loosing structures. Not a good place in the middle of the fire season
talk management burns.
Back to the meeting the prescription this involves a FBAN, Location, Weather predictions, Management area, availability of crews if the Fire escapes prescription.
Yarnell would not have met prescription on severial counts.
Elizabeth– it is way more complicated than it sounds when you talk about unplanned ignitions in heavy fuel, with the extreme fire danger in drought conditions, late June thru September.
within 2 to 4 miles of towns and small communities. Not a controllable scenario.
Thanks!
You wrote”
“Management Fires are a lot more complicated than just letting them burn to reduce the fuel.”
I spent some time yesterday reading about the Jaros0 Fire in the Pecos Wilderness in early June 2013.
That’s a place my dad and I used to pack in via horseback in the 1960s and 1970s. It took me awhile to orient myself via the fire maps but I finally did. A number of gorgeous places we used to camp burned in this fire. But there was a HUGE swath of trees right through it that had been blown down and made dead in the years since we used to camp there.
When the fire was lightning-ignited, a rappel crew and a smokejumper crew were initially flown in. It was REALLY difficult and remote country. They had to be pulled out in the first twelve hours.
It was also, ahem, Wilderness. So it was determined it didn’t have to be uberly suppressed.
The Initial IMT handed the fire off to Tony Sciacca’s team.
Tony’s team came in and spent about SIX DAYS JUST INTERVIEWING the people and stakeholders surrounding the area of the fire, in order to determine what were the most important resources and values that would need to be protected, while, EVERY DAY, communicating that the area where the fire was burning was TOO DANGEROUS to send human beings in to engage the fire. While the fire burned.
I could see the smoke from the fire from Albuquerque. And then the Thompson Ridge Fire started, which is a whole nuther story. Not to speak of the fact that Santa Fe was INUNDATED with smoke. All things considered, it is SERIOUSLY NOT COOL when Santa Fe gets, periodically inundated with smoke.
(What, apparently, our counselor also doesn’t understand, also, is how POLITICAL SMOKE IS when fires are allowed to burn because, well, sometimes these places do need to burn). So that’s an additional COMPLEXITY.
So, anyway. That fire burned for about six days with nobody doing anything about stopping it, because, well, it was a natural fire in a Wilderness, and, generally speaking, Wilderness fires are allowed to burn, because that’s what Wildernesses are all about. And, to be honest, probably that area needed to burn.
And also because Tony Sciacca determined that, fire-fighter safety being the FIRST consideration, it was too dangerous to send fire-fighters in to try to suppress it.
As I write this, I’m not sure which of these considerations took precedence, if even one of them did.
I am sure that the conversations with the stake-holders in those conversations had a WHOLE LOT TO DO with, not only structures at risk, but the WATERSHEDS.
It is said that trees and structures can be replaced. Which is somewhat true in the calculations. On the other hand, WATERSHEDS are a whole different ball of wax. They’re almost as non-replaceable as wildfire fighters. Not quite, but seriously close. Especially in the Southwest.
I think the other thing our counselor does not quite understand is how wildfire damages watersheds and how incredibly SERIOUS that damage can be, in the drought-prone Southwest. It REALLY adds to the complexity of all of this.
But it was STRESSED on InciWeb that fire-fighter safety was the reason for not attacking the fire at that point, not Wilderness designation.
So.
At a certain point, the fire was passed on to the Atlanta NIMO team, the same team that was later involved in the eventual Yarnell Fire Memorial Preparations. (I have no idea why this Atlanta NIMO was so engaged in incidents in the Southwest at that time, but that seems to be what happened.)
The Atlanta NIMO was, at that time, involved also in wrapping up and doing the BAER work on the Thompson Ridge Fire (the one that Granite Mountain got major PR about for their night-time structure protection back-burning operation). So they were just generally engaged on stuff in the Arizona/New Mexico area at that time.
Unfortunately, for the Atlanta NIMO Team, after they inherited the Jarosa Fire from Tony Sciacca’s team (who went from there to the Doce Fire), it did, relatively speaking, blow up quite a bit, expanding from about 4K acres (when Tony Sciacca’s team was managing it) to about 12K acres.
At that point, a whole lot of suppression/structure protection crews had to be quickly pulled in. There were IHCs doing handlines to increase all kinds of roads and other barriers and wildland et al engine crews scrambling to do structure protection.
And then, finally, the monsoons slowly moved in, things got more and more humid, then it rained, and then slowly the fire slowed down and stopped burning around about the time they were doing a nation-wide stand-down for safety to honor and think about the Granite Mountain Hotshots.
And this fire DID seriously damage the Las Vegas, New Mexico watershed. And there was flooding in that small city because of it.
Given this whole narrative, I agree with WTKTT when he said something along the lines of (and I’m hugely paraphrasing) “the time to be thinking about this kind of stuff is not when a fire is erupting on a relatively small manzanita-filled ecosystem with a bunch of unprotected homes (owned by a community of people mostly older than 60-years-old) close on to its borders.”
That being said, To Be Honest, I have had the same sorts of thoughts our counselor has spoken of here. That huge acreage of manzanita/chaparral was very muchly way beyond DUE TO BURN. And it may even get there again.
But, yeah, the time to mitigate those risks is not when a fire gets lit into an explosive container with humans next to it.
So yes, as you say, Bob, “Management Fires are a lot more complicated than just letting them burn to reduce the fuel.”
Namaste.
No, Elizabeth…if you actually read my comment, I say SPECIFICALLY JUST THAT! You must be too busy to read the entire comment, so here let me print it for you again. In addition, I am still planning on responding to the LAST time (regarding Thirtymile) you tried to gig me on something I said, and you completely SCREWED IT up because you did not read the previous comments!
“The only time I ever went on initial attack as a hotshot (excluding being in a “move up” role to be prepositioned at a helibase either on forest or off forest to go out to initial fire starts in small modules as small as two crewmembers for that specific preplanned purpose, where one crew member would serve at the Incident Commander who then doubles as a line resource and the other crew person fills every other role on the fire)”
In addition, I did say the following,
“Based on my experience, hotshots usually have very little to do with whether a fire takes off and gets big or not, when compared to those resources who are tasked with INITIAL attack responsibilities. In other words, I don’t think hotshots should ever be thought of as an INTIAL attack resource, they should always be thought of as an EXTENDED attack resource.”
And I have stated several times in the past, my last firefighting experience was in 1988, although frankly…it does not appear to me the strategies and tactics in wildland firefighting other than some differences such as not fighting wildfire at night, which I don’t understand or agree with. In addition, there is apparently a much greater emphasis on wildand/urban interface because so many people unlike me, do not want to live in a town, and in houses in what they call “subdivisions” (see Levittown N.Y.) where everyone is in neat little rows in very similar and sometimes identical houses like they started building after WWII because there are too MANY people for everyone to live like they did prior to WWII.
And we have been doing nothing but creating babies and bigger and bigger cities since then. While people want to live near a city for the amenities a city offers, and need to live near enough to a city where there are jobs, so they start building a short distance from the city in order to have wildlands in their back yard, but still get to town to work in an office building and for social and shopping experiences. So take my comments as you will, based on the fact I fought wildfire a long time ago.
And now I want to add to what Bob said. IF the only TOOL you have in your tool bag is a really big, really heavy, and really expensive CLAW HAMMER that carpenters use to knock house frames together, well…then, every time you want to hammer a nail in, even if it is a finish nail you want to pound into a picture frame you are going to use a really big, really heavy and really expensive CLAW HAMMER. The USFS Service has a lot of DIFFERENT wildland firefighting tools in their in their tool bag because well…they are in the wildfire fighting business. In fact, the USFS was built on two principles, growing trees to cut down to frame houses for the America people and putting out fires that threatened those trees.
That is why the USFS is in the U.S. Department of Agriculture whereas logical people would naturally assume it is under U.S. Department of the Interior, just like all of the other land management agencies in the federal government. Most politicians you see…or at least those politicians who matter, those from the western states who control the committees who control how the USFS operates, still think of growing trees just like they do of growing wheat, barley or corn crops. Trees are something to be grown and harvested, which I am totally OK with, the house I live in is a wood frame house. I don’t want one made out of straw.
On the other hand, the USFS does not have a lot of tools in their tool bag that you could use to manage a local municipality because well…they are not in the business of managing a local municipality. There are a few of the same tools in their bags (Prescott and the USFS) for example, when I worked on the Santa Fe National Forest, I was acquainted with the Forest Civil Engineer who left the USFS to go to work for the City of Albuquerque N.M. on their roads instead of forest roads. So there is some crossover.
So…I know that many of you are wondering, how would I set up the Prescott Wildlands Fire Division if I were in charge, or if I was being paid as a consultant? Well…first off, I would not even consider working as a consultant in my Goldenish Years for less than $125.00 per hour, plus expenses. But since I think WTKTT, Marti and several others time who have so generously contributed their time to this thread, and I think their time is worth as much as mine or more, well…it would truly be selfish not to jump in and answer that question as best I can. I’m sorry Elizabeth, based on your contributions to this thread to date…you actually owe us a great deal of money. Just kidding, April Fools, based on some of our side emails, you know how much I really think of you…don’t you?
I actually consider the chance to answer this question is my golden opportunity to make a real contribution to this thread that is different than my normal angry, sarcastic, smart aleck, snarky remarks, in addition my usual general comments and back-story blah, blah, blah.
So here we go…I would like to say that the Good Citizens of Prescott are really lucky that Eric Marsh and Darrell Willis didn’t have a dream to fly their own slurry bomber as a division of the Prescott Fire Department. At least based on what I know of the oversight and the level of expertise of those individuals who were providing that oversight, regarding Mr. Willis in particular, or right now the city could very well own their very own Boeing 747 that had been converted into a slurry bomber that could drop 11,000 gallons of retardant on a single mission. In other words, the only tool in their wildland firefighting tool box would be a 20 pound sledge hammer, assuming it had not been flown into the side of Granite Mountain yet.
The USFS has a really big toolbox for nothing but sledgehammers, they have sledge hammers that start at 2 pounds…and go all the way up to 20 pounds. But they also have a wide variety of other hammers, ball pein hammers, tack hammers, claw hammers, and they even have some rubber mallets, all of different sizes and weights. They have to because they are in the hammer business, and have been for a really long time. They pound a lot of things, so they need a lot of different kinds of hammers. You know what they say, “If you are a hammer, everything looks like a nail.” And if the only tool you own is a really big and expensive carpenters hammer, well…you are going to want to treat every problem like it’s a nail sticking up.
So…what does Prescott really need to build a successful Wildland Fire Division?
1. Don’t make wildland fire suppression a DIVISION. You just aren’t that important, you just don’t have that must wildland around you as a smallish city to pay someone more than $90,000 a year to manage this program, unless your real goal is to create something slightly more than a “no-show” job for your ex fire chief so he won’t go to the Prescott Courier with a hand drawn map showing where all of the bodies are buried…I guess? Put the people who work in that area into the Emergency Services Division, after all…a wildfire can be called an “emergency” that needs to be “serviced”….right? You just aren’t going to need, nor can you afford very many people to work in this area, once again…you just don’t have very much area to cover.
2. Hire an experienced and qualified person to run that program. Call this person an Assistant (Deputy) Emergency Services Chief. Get a copy of a Vacancy Announcement from the USFS for a District Fire Management Officer, dumb it down a little bit, because once again, you aren’t very big nor very important when compared to a USFS District.
Then look for someone who is currently working as a USFS Assistant Fire Management Officer or his or her equivalent in another agency. If you want someone who is really good at working at small town (read chicken-shit) politics, glad-handing the local population and not only surviving, but excelling in an closed environment that is dominated by Machiavelli politics, hire someone operating at that level who has lasted for a minimum of five years in a similar position working for the National Park Service.
If you can handle someone who is a little rough around the edges but does good work…hire somebody who works for the USFS. If you want to hire someone who used to work for both the USFS and the NPS, hire somebody who works for the BLM. You may also may want to check with the BIA, but knowing the people and politics of Prescott, somebody from the BIA is probably not going to be happy working and living in Prescott.
Be sure the Position Description requires that person must pass the current wildland firefighter pack test and a hire youngish person unless you want just a guy who is really good at schmoozing people and ordering free shit out of the big book the USFS already sent to Chief Willis. In other words, you need a working supervisor who can write fire plans, federal grant applications, fuel reduction plans (someone who has worked as a USFS Fuels Technician would be good) and knows how to do budgeting and how to train and supervise wildland firefighters with both engine and hotshot crew experience that still has a lot of energy and likes to work in the field but can work in an office. P.S., don’t phrase it like I did or the EEOC will probably be all over your ass, but the shit bag who runs your personnel office knows how to play all of the games…I am quite sure of that.
3. Buy and equip two 4×4 “brush trucks” that can carry 200 gallons of water (more than that would be too heavy, less than that would not be effective enough for what you need). Put a lift kit on it (not to high, you don’t want roll it) heavy bumpers that can run into trees or back into trees once in a while without sustaining much damage and put a big honkin’ ass winch (minimum Warn 16.5 Thermometric like I have my 4×4 one ton Ford E-350 van with a Buckstop bumper with a grill guard, not only does that set up look bad-ass…but if you ever bury those bitchs up to their axles…you are going to need those winches) and get a bunch of recovery gear, like several really heavy duty snatch blocks etc.
Have them call me, I love to shop for and buy recovery gear I hope I will never actually need. Buy single cab trucks, double cab trucks will be too big. Talk to the USFS, NPS or BIA and get their spec sheets and a list of suppliers, they own a bunch of vehicles similar to what I am describing, tell them I sent you…they will hook you up. If you want to be different and spend a lot more money that will make people point and whip out their camera phones…call the BLM and ask them about their Mercedes Benz Unimog program. It’s really cool. If they still have it…it has been awhile.
3. Buy a crew van. Don’t get a Chevy or Dodge van unless they are all out of Ford vans everywhere in the country. Just kidding, you are probably screwed on this angle no matter what, since Ford has started making all of their vans just like they have been making them for decades in Europe due to gas mileage requirements. So…you are going to have to shop for a good, low mileage E-350. Take it to Quad Van in Portland, Oregon, tell them I sent you, and they will add a lift kit and a four wheel drive system. It’s not cheap…but it is well worth the money.
4. Now…you are going to need some more supervisors. You will need a minimum of 3 supervisors, one for each of your rigs. Look for a mix of hotshots who have worked on engines or people who have worked on engines who have hotshot experience. In other words, your supervisors will need the skill sets that are only obtained on engines (wildland fire engines, not big red or lime green fire trucks you sillies) and hotshot crews, you won’t be able to hire some of each…you can’t afford it.
But…give you 4 supervisors some benefits for God’s sake…you cheap bastards. I know…I know…your big problem is that Prescott has been on top ten retirement place lists for about 40 years now…so you do have an overwhelmingly burden of really unpleasant (nasty) budget minded (cheap-ass, after…their kids are already grown and have THEIR educations, so they have no intention of paying one fucking penny more than they have to help educate anyone else’s kids or anything else for that matter) citizens, but you are just going to have to deal with it.
5. Finally…hire some crewmembers. You will need to a minimum of 2 crewmembers for each brush truck/pumper, and (here is where you can play with the numbers) 6 to 10 crewmembers to fill up your bitchin’ van, (here’s a photo of mine so you have something to shoot for http://virtualroadtrip.net/randomtrips/roadtripmisc.html your welcome). What you are really shooting for here, is to be able to field the equivalent of one squad (9) of hotshots. Here you can afford to hire either people who have worked on engines or hotshot crews, avoid people who have only worked on helitack crews or as smokejumpers because, well…they have only worked on helitack crews or as smokejumpers…enough said!
I know…I know…you still have the problem we talked about before, so you don’t have to offer them any benefits, just dangle the POSSIBILITY they could get benefits SOMEDAY, and you will get a more qualified applicants than you can manage. You will be able to select some really, really, good people for all of these positions. Uncle Sam has spent millions and millions and millions of dollars training all of the wildland firefighters they discard every year. This will save you a lot of money in training dollars.
6. Get that big book the USFS sent to Darrell Willis before he takes off to dedicate his life making sure the Granite Mountain Hotshots did not die in vain, or he ends up in a catatonic state staring at a blank wall in his house clutching a cross and mumbling to himself…if he ever admits to himself what he has done. Because you are going to need to order some things, but most of the tools and other equipment you will need are already in storage over at Fire Station 7.
7. Develop an interagency memorandum of understanding or some sort of mutual aide agreement with the Prescott National Forest that will allow your crews to be sent to fires on the Prescott so they can stay proficient and get additional training and experience, and so that the Prescott National Forest will send its engines to help you fight a wildfire in a subdivision. I’m sure they will do that already, but now you will be contributing something to the mix. Arrange in these agreements to have your brush trucks and 6-10 person hand crew to be dispatched out of the Prescott Zone Dispatch Center (or whatever they call it) out by the airport. Don’t send them any further than the boundaries of the Prescott National Forest, you can’t afford to be a “playa.” Know what I mean?
8. Once you have followed all of these steps, you will be able to handle anything your little town faces in terms of wildland fire threats (multiple starts) and when they are not on fires, your crews can engage in fuels reduction projects. If you have any question…call me!
You made the point again that you think hotshot crews should not be an initial attack resource. I just find that curious. No more, no less.
Also, my calculus is less complex than yours, and I bill at a higher rate than you do. My calculus is more along the lines of Steve Pyne’s (sp?): If an area has not burned in forty years, it is going to burn badly when it does burn, so the public needs to be trained to just EXPECT that and evacuate at the first sign of a fire in that type of area. If you “initial attack” and suppress everything, you are doing NOBODY any favors. Those of you who are complaining that the YHF was not put out quickly enough miss the point that there should have been prescribed fire or mastication in that area for years… but there wasn’t, and you cannot blame Russ Shumate or Dean Fernandez for that.
Friday night, June 28, 2013 and (especially) Saturday, June 29, 2013 was NO time to be having a ‘mastication debate’ or talk about what SHOULD have been happening over the previous decades.
Arizona Forestry’s JOB was to perform an INITIAL ATTACK on a Lightning Strike in an area ( and under fire conditions ) that could potentially be disastrous.
That Initial Attack FAILED ( miserably )… resulting in significant loss of life and property.
There ARE “Lessons to be Learned”.
Don’t order crews for your ‘Initial Attack’ who ( even though their rating says they are supposed to ) are UNABLE to physically hike to where the fire is.
If it’s the RATING system for Crew Ordering that’s broken… fix it.
If it’s Crews being GIVEN ratings they shouldn’t have… fix that, too.
Then it’s time to look around and have more ‘mastication’ debates.
Exactly.
Actually I can’t describe it any better than Bob did below, the correct answer is yes and no.
Bob said “Yes your guys are right the local HS Crews can and have be used on IA fires in small groups.
In reality it is not done very often when FS Regular resources are available. Like Eng. crews, Fuels Crews, trail crews, Fire Prev. People, those local resources are generally first.
There are occasional lightning fires that are to numerous on a forest to attack with the resources available. Generally the HS Crew is used on larger starts where more Man Power is needed 5 1o 10 man squads. Similar to ordering smoke jumper sticks. 3,6,12 etc.
So back to the question the answer is yes and no.
IRHS are never split or at least in my day were never.
HSC forest can and have depending on the national and Regional Fire out look.
that is not to say that the Region or NIFC may put a hold on all HS Resources and keep the in full crews ready for dispatch nationally. Happens quite often in my day and now.
So there are some hoops to jump thru to split a crew up into small squads and spread them out they are now not a Type 1 crew, till all are back together and reinstalled on the crew availability lists.
Final answer IT CAN HAPPEN BUT IT IS VERY SELDOM DONE.”
But is just so happens that where I have worked on the Mighty Coconino, the forest was flush with lots of initial attack resources, mostly engines, on all of the districts. Therefore hotshots would just be used to go on extended attack to those fires the engines have lost or very may well lose.
And on the Santa Fe, the Santa Fe hotshots were normally kept within a 50 miles or so of Santa Fe because that was a central location on the forest and near the airport. If they Santa Fe Hotshots were sent to the Coyote or Cuba Ranger Districts for initial attack, they would be 12 hours or more from being able to respond to a fire on the Las Vegas District and 6 hours or more from the airport. So no, it wasn’t a good idea to use them for initial attack.
And Retired with 38 is 100 correct in his well written analysis “A couple comments,
First, as Bob corrected himself all type 1 crews are IHC – the IRHC and IHC (T) went away several years ago (unless it has changed again).
In regard to using an IHC as an IA crew I must respectfully disagree with Gary Olsen. In my time the concept was always use the “closest resource” and attack the fire that you know you have instead of the fire that might happen. The utilization of an IHC on Friday night or even Saturday morning for initial attack would (IMHO)have dramatically changed the tragic outcome. Steep, rocky, inaccessible terrain – with the ongoing conditions in the area sounds like the perfect IA for an IHC. IHC’s are more qualified, more experienced, better conditioned, etc., than DOC crews. Cost more? You bet, but in this situation you would have had a small fire at a higher cost versus a small/medium sized fire at a cost that will NEVER be accepted (regardless of decisions made and why). What about the next fire, or the fire that needs IHC’s? Once contained, the DOC crew could have been utilized for holding, mop-up, and patrol and the IHC could have been made available for re-assignment.
As discussed several chapters ago, this fire was mismanaged from the onset. Utilizing the proper resources in a timely fashion would have changed the tragic outcome.”
So yes, you should also send the closest resource it’s just because I have worked where there are so many engines, they almost always handled the initial attack. The Santa Fe Hotshots did go on one initial attack fire while I was there, the Valdez Fire and we lost it big time. But the fact we were close enough to do the initial attack was a very rare occurrence.
I have stated before that a lot of my comments are general statements and with an agency as big and diverse as the USFS, it is almost always wrong to make any blanket statements. It’s complicated.
And I think there were plenty of initial attack resources available or on scene to stop the Yarnell Hill Fire before it ever got started, what seemed to be lacking was the will to do so, but that is a cultural problem.
Thank you, Gary, for this. And also for your GREAT explication of what you would advise if you were asked (at $150 an hour, which you deserve) to reconfigure a wildland fire-fighting crew for Prescott. I read that with GREAT interest (and also appreciate WTKTT’s description of the already available resources Prescott has for that crew).
You wrote:
“And I think there were plenty of initial attack resources available or on scene to stop the Yarnell Hill Fire before it ever got started”
That is so completely true, it just boggles my mind.
Think Prescott Helitack.
An hour away, at the most. I don’t know (and can’t find) if they were available (if maybe not that night, but for the next morning??), but they are never even mentioned in the Dispatch WildCAD log. They were never even brought up or considered or asked for or ANYTHING. I really don’t understand that. They didn’t even need a helispot to engage, something that, apparently, determining the existence of ALSO cost time on Saturday morning.
I can not even begin to comprehend the fact that Shumate never even thought of this crew, all things considered. There’s no way he could not have been aware of its existence.
A rappel crew with a big helicopter. An hour away. The PERFECT Initial Attack crew for this fire.
Even the BLM helitack crew, whose helicopter and crewman somehow DID get called up (probably due to BLM Dean Fernandez being involved), could have done a better job of dousing and killing this fire by somewhere around noon, even if that entailed them high-tailing it over to Yarnell from Payson, where they were staged.
I mean, how long does it take to drive from Payson to Yarnell early on a Saturday morning? Two hours at the complete maximum most??????
Even if it had taken them awhile to fly up to the ridge (in a smaller helicopter than Prescott Helitack had, I think), at least they were highly qualified and I’m SURE they would never have lost control of that fire the way the DOC crew did.
I just really truly don’t even begin to understand what was going through Russ Shumate’s mind that Friday night when he ordered those (albeit cheap OH YEAH!!!) DOC crews to deploy and accomplish any kind of effective Initial Attack on that fire up on that ridge.
This is a real conundrum for me. It has ALWAYS been.
They didn’t need Granite Mountain that Saturday morning. They had two perfectly adequate crews right in their back pocket.
Yes they did, what they didn’t have was motivation.
Great ‘blueprint’, Gary. ( Also great commentary, as usual ). Love the ‘analogies’. Spot on.
Bitchin’ van as well. Thanks for the photo.
If I am reading the following (current) ‘Equipment List’ for the Prescott Fire Department correctly… they seem to ALREADY have at LEAST FOUR ‘Type 6’ Engines ( Brush Trucks ) stationed all around their response area(s).
They even list one of them ( at Station 71 ) as a “Type III, US Forest Service Engine with 4-7 personnel”.
So it looks like the ‘regular’ side of the Prescott Fire Department has ALWAYS recognized the need to have ‘Brush Trucks’ and that fighting Wildland Fires on the outskirts of their Service area(s) has ALWAYS been something they need to be ready to do.
How THAT turned into even the NEED for a (separate) “Wildland Division”, a ‘Type 2 IA’ crew… OR a full blown Type 1 Hotshot Crew sort of remains a mystery.
The TRUTH is probably that that is simply what people like Steinbrink and Willis and Marsh WANTED to have… and once the GRANT money started flowing after the “National Fire Act” was passed… they saw a way to “have their dream” right there in Prescott.
Even now… it looks like they could simply ‘beef up’ the support they have always had on the “Regular” side of the Fire Department Budget and still be able to handle whatever they need to ( just short of a disaster that is ALWAYS going to need the ‘playas’ to show up ).
From… Prescott Fire Department’s own website…
http://www.prescott-az.gov/services/fire/stations/
Station 71 (333 White Spar Rd.) – Equipment
2 Type 1 Engines
1 75′ Ladder Company
1 Type VI
1 Utility
1 Historic Engine
NOTE for Station 71: Response area includes; City of Prescott, Prescott National Forest, Hwy 89, and rural areas surrounding city. Station 71 houses a Type III, US Forest Service Engine with 4-7 personnel.
Station 72 (1700 Iron Springs Road) – Equipment
2 Type 1 Engines, 1 Truck Company, 1 Type 6 Patrol
Station 73 (1980 Clubhouse Drive) – Equipment
1 Type 1 Engine, 1 ARFF Unit, 1 Type 6 Patrol
Station 74 (2747 Smoketree Lane) – Equipment
1 Type 1 Engine, 1 Support Unit, 1 Rescue Boat
Station 75 (315 Lee Boulevard) – Equipment
1 Type 1 Engine, 1 Type 6 Engine, 1 Hazardous Materials Unit
NOTE: Granite Mountain Station 7 ( and all THAT equipment ) is still listed as
an ‘active station’ in the PFD Station roster…
Station 7 (501 6th Street) ( Granite Mountain Station 7 ) – Equipment
1 4×4 Superintendent Truck
2 10 Person Crew Carriers
2 Chipper Trucks
1 Chipper
Misc. Wildland Division Trucks
Well…never mind then. If they already had what the needed? Oh well.
For ten years ( from 1990 to 2000 )… there was this PAWUIC ( Prescott Area Wildland/Urban Interface ) thing going on. All it could achieve for pretty much a decade was ‘community awareness and education’.
The City of Prescott was not, in and of itself, seeing the CVB ( Cost Versus Benefit ) of actually funding any REAL work for “Fuels Abatement”.
Then came the “National Fire Act” of 2000… and suddenly there was $$$ MONEY $$$ to be had.
Prescott was in an ideal position to get a piece of the first round of “Fuels Abatement” money because they WERE being listed as one of 9 communities in danger of a CATASTRPOHIC Wildfire… AND they already had this PAWUIC thing for going on ten years.
So that’s how they became part of that first ‘Beta rollout’ of this new National “Firewise” effort.
Suddenly… the money showed up… and that is where Prescott’s first actual “Fuels Abatement Crew” came from.
You know… ACTUAL people doing ACTUAL work and stuff.
That is all well and good.
But then something WEIRD happened… and I don’t believe the whole ‘story’ on that has come out yet.
Somehow… even with the GRANT money now showing up… there was this feeling that Prescott STILL didn’t see the CVB and if the GRANT money dried up… so would the actual ‘Fuels Abatement Crew”.
So somewhere in THAT ‘paranoia’ the idea was ‘hatched’ to try and prove to the City of Prescott that a crew like that could ‘break even’… if they just achieved some status whereby they could ‘job out’ during fire season.
That’s when the “Fuels Crew” turned into a “Type 2 IA” crew.
What we still do NOT really know is how ‘in the loop’ the Prescott City Council really was on these “let’s transform ourselves” decision being made by Willis, Steinbrink and Marsh.
Ditto for the NEXT decision ( after achieving Type 2 IA status ) to try and even go to “the next level”. Actual ‘Type 1 Hotshot’ rating.
What is MISSING from the actual published Prescott City Budget documents going all the way back to the year 2000 is this ‘decision making’ process being either reflected ( or supported ) by the Prescott City Budget.
The ‘increasing expenditures’ only start showing up in the Budgets AFTER these different ‘status levels’ had already been achieved.
Were Steinbrink, Willis and Marsh even TELLING the City they were doing this ‘upgrading’… or was it really some kind of “forgiveness is easier than permission” strategy on their part?
Now that the post-mortem discussion is so focused ( as Chief Dennis Light proved just last week ) on whether that program was ‘making money’ and/or even just ‘breaking even’… it’s worth re-asking the questions about how they even GOT to the point where they were even EXPECTED to be ‘breaking even’.
I’ll repeat an analogy I made below.
If the police department is found to not be ‘breaking even’ and ‘covering their expenses’ with enough traffic ticket income coming back to the City of Prescott… is it time to start talking about DISBANDING them?
If the City of Prescott itself was even ‘onboard’ with creating that initial “Fuels Abatement Crew”… and the CVB was there for THAT… then WHEN did it all start to go south and WHEN did the ‘bean-counters’ start looking at the whole thing sideways?
Was it after the jump to ‘Type 2 IA’?
Was it after the additional jump to ‘Type 1 IHC’?
And as you pointed out succinctly above… WHEN ( and WHY? ) was there a decision to even create an actual “Wildland Division” for such a small Fire Department and pay out that salary… instead of just ‘integrating’ that GRANT money and the “Fuels Abatement” Crew into the existing infrastructure?
I don’t think a lot of these questions have ever really been answered.
There really was some kind of “Bridge Too Far” scenario that had been developing here for YEARS… but the actual REASONS for ending up with a full blown ‘Type 1 IHC’ Crew attached to a full-blown “Wildland Division” of a small town Fire Department ( that couldn’t even afford $8,000 lousy dollars to REPLACE their ATV when it burned up ) are still a little mysterious.
Willis has stated ( in media interviews ) that when it came time to try and fly something that could prove that this Crew could ‘make money’ or ‘break even’ for the City… that he always intended to ‘go for the gusto’.
Willis stated ( to the media )…
“I wanted to provide the best we could. If we’re going to have a crew, we might as well have the best.”
So maybe right there is when the “Bridge Too Far” thing really began.
It’s one thing to just apply for ‘trainee status’ for Type 1 IHC and then get (supposedly) only 3 people to ‘sign off’ on whether you deserve that rating ( one of whom is attached to your own Prescott National Forest )…
…but whether that really SHOULD have been allowed to happen without the FULL support of your host agency ( The City of Prescott ) is ‘another story’ that I think has yet to be told.
That is where all the PRESSURE was created. The PRESSURE to perform. The PRESSURE to ‘break even’. The PRESSURE to ‘train within and hire from within’..
Those PRESSURES were with 43 year old Eric Marsh all the time… even on Sunday, June 30th, 2013… so the STORY of where those PRESSURES were really coming from remains just as relevant as ever.
Yes, as I keep saying, the pressure the crew was under does not excuse the decision they made, but it does explain why they made it to me.
For what it’s worth here is the agenda for the March 26 Prescott City Council “Special Meeting,” which includes what looks like frames from what must have been a powerpoint presentation or such. Some interesting things in it.
Including, on page ten:
“ Primary functions of the GMH consisted of:
▪ Fuels reduction by hand-crew methods under grant funded projects
▪ Assisting property owners/associations by chipping vegetation
removed by others from private property
▪ Initial wildfire response
▪ Extended deployment to other fires under external incident command
and cost reimbursement according to federal and state guidelines”
So, apparently, they WERE expected to do Initial Attack.
Very worth looking through this.
They haven’t posted the minutes yet.
I may not be posted very much for awhile. I’m really exhausted and need to do a WHOLE lot of In-real-life stuff, it being tax month an all.
But I’m ALWAYS reading!!!!
Oh doh, I forgot to post the link. That’s how tired I am.
It’s a .pdf.
PRESCOTT CITY COUNCIL Council Chambers
SPECIAL MEETING 201 South Cortez Street
Thursday, March 26, 2015 Prescott, Arizona 86303
9:00 AM
http://prescottaz.suiteonemedia.com/Web/UserControls/DocPreview.aspx?p=1&aoid=259
To get to other City Council Meetings Documents go here:
http://prescottaz.suiteonemedia.com/web/site.aspx
PS The more I’ve been looking at all of this, the more I see how Prescott’s Wildland Fire Response is integrated with that of Central Yavapai Fire District and Yavapai County in general.
I’m wondering how they’re all reacting to this. But I haven’t found much online about all of this except the usual media articles.
And I STILL can’t figure out the numbers when they say the Wildland Div cost $250K to $300K per year. There’s nothing in this pdf that breaks down any of those numbers, it just presents them as stated.
Reply to Marti Reed post on April 1, 2015 at 8:37 pm
>> Marti said…
>>
>> And I STILL can’t figure out the numbers when they say the Wildland
>> Div cost $250K to $300K per year. There’s nothing in this pdf that
>> breaks down any of those numbers, it just presents them as stated.
I think I said somewhere down below that even with this ‘latest’ information from Prescott Fire Chief Dennis Light which ( supposedly ) came from some ‘final audit’ of the Granite Mountain operation… I don’t think we’ll ever really know the TRUE answer to the question “Was Granite Mountain breaking even…. or not”.
There are too many sets of ‘numbers’ floating around without the DETAIL to back up the conclusions.
Example: Crew Carriers
To this day… I haven’t seen ANY ‘evaluation’ factor in the VEHICLES, and the tremendous COST that must have been involved just to have them.
I haven’t seen any exact figures ( there is nothing about these vehicles in any report or document from Prescott )… but when Wildfire Today published their article about the “Ironwood Hotshots” disbanding the article also said they had just taken delivery of their own new Crew Carriers ( identical to Granite Mountain’s Carriers ) to the tune of half-a-million dollars ( $500,000 ) for the two Crew Carriers alone.
Here is that article… which ALSO mentions Granite Mountain and contains even one more report about them only being $65,000 dollars ‘in the hole’ for 2012.
Wildfire Today
Article Title: Ironwood Hotshots to be disbanded
Posted on March 4, 2014 by Bill Gabbert
http://wildfiretoday.com/2014/03/04/ironwood-hotshots-to-be-disbanded/
From the article…
——————————————————————
The Prescott Fire Department paid the personnel on the Granite Mountain Hotshots around $12 an hour according to The Daily Courier, but the department was reimbursed by the federal government at the rate of $39.50 an hour In fiscal year 2012, the city estimated that the crew brought in $1,375,191, and had $1,437,444 in operating expenses – for a difference ( deficit ) of $62,253.
In 2012, payments for fighting fire paid for 95.5 percent of the cost of the Granite Mountain Hotshots. While they were not assigned to a fire, they sometimes spent time on projects for the city, including hazard fuel mitigation — removing vegetation to reduce the chance that fires approaching residential areas would destroy the homes of city residents. And of course, much of the year they were available for fighting wildland fires in and near the city of Prescott.
We have a report that the Ironwood Hotshots have been doing even better financially and the crew is not a monetary burden on the Fire District. They are reimbursed at about $40 per crewperson hour, which covers not only salary but some other routine expenses while firefighting the fire. The starting pay for a new crewperson is about $13 an hour.
Even though the crew recently purchased and paid for $500,000 worth of new crew carriers, they still have a positive balance in their hotshot crew account of several hundred thousand dollars.
Last September another hotshot crew, El Cariso, established 60 years before, was disbanded.
The Ironwood Hotshots first attained Type 1 Interagency Hotshot Crew certification in 2009 ( A year-and-a-half after ‘Granite Mountain’ became a Type 1 HS Crew ).
—————————————————————-
We also KNOW that “Granite Mountain” took delivery of their brand-new custom built Crew Carriers in the same year ( 2007 ) when they were certified as a ‘Type 1 Hotshot Crew’… but that information is NOWHERE any official BUDGET document coming out of the City of Prescott.
The only actual report on WHEN they purchased these $500,000 Crew Carriers comes from an ‘accidental history’ that was posted on the ‘Wildland Fire’ website in June of 2007 by someone with a real name of ‘Mike’ from Prescott… who uses the handle ‘CWZWildfire’ ( I assume the CWZ stands for ‘Central West Zone’ ).
Here is that posting and the additional “History of Granite Mountain”…
** From WildlandFire
http://hotlist.wildlandfire.com/threads/466-1st-MUNICIPAL-Hotshot-Crew-Formed
Thread: 1st MUNICIPAL Hotshot Crew Formed
———————————————————————–
06-21-2007, 23:09 – Comment by CWZWildfire
The City of Prescott AZ Fire Dept has formed the FIRST MUNICIPAL Hotshot Crew, called the “Granite Mountain Hotshots” the crew itself called “Crew 7” has been a Type 2 crew since 2002 working toward this goal of becoming a IHC, they have now completed it and are now a Type 1 (t) crew as of this year.
Yes I know what your going to say, California already has Fire Dept Hotshot Crews from Kern County, but they are COUNTY, Granite Mountain is first “City Fire Dept” to form a crew, Prescott is 100 miles NW of Phoenix right in the middle of the Prescott NF.
Also the Northwest Fire District is also forming its own hotshot crew, they are currently a Type 2 crew but are set for 2008 season as a IHC(t) crew as well, they will be called “Ironwood Hotshots” they just missed getting it for this year due to staffing concerns,
Northwest FD is NW of Tucson AZ
I wrote an article for ‘Wildland Firefighter Magazine’ on this, tentatively scheduled to run in their July Issue, I interviewed the Wildland Division Chiefs of both depts and got some great info.
Anyone interested email me off forum and I will email you a copy of the article I submitted, its in MSN Word Format.
Have a great one
Mike – Prescott AZ
———————————————————————–
———————————————————————–
Comment: 06-23-2007, 11:03 by CWZWildfire
Re: 1st MUNICIPAL Hotshot Crew Formed (Here is article I wrote)
Here is a copy of that article I wrote. for ‘Wildland Firefighter’ magazine…
Arizona Fire Departments Achieve Hotshot Crew Status
The Prescott Arizona Fire Department’s “Crew 7” has earned its “Hotshot” Status. Crew 7 started in May 2001 as a fuels management crew funded thru National Fire Plan Grants & State Fire Assistance Grants. On May 15th 2002 the Indian Fire burned into Prescott City Limits and the fire chief wanted to upgrade Crew 7 to a Type 2 I/A Crew. In May 2003 Crew 7 became a Type 2 I/A Crew.; they decided that their goal would ultimately be a Type 1 Hotshot Crew. Using the National IHC Operations guide (IHOG) they started working toward their Hotshot certification.
While on various fires they had division supervisors sign off on various accomplishments required to become a Type 1 Crew. They adopted the name GRANITE MOUNTAIN HOTSHOTS,
Duane Steinbrink, Wildland Division Chief for Prescott Fire Department stated “15 names were listed and then voted on by the crew members to pick the top 5. Out of these names ‘Granite Mountain’ was chosen, a prominent landmark in the Prescott area. This was picked due to its ruggedness and majestic strength which the crew strives to be.”
“One of the most difficult obstacles to forming the crew was hiring full time wildland firefighters”, stated Steinbrink., “As part of the hotshot status is 80% of the crew be experienced, that leaves only 4 positions that can be open to ‘rookies'”.
Granite Mountain Hotshots are committed to training both physical and mental. In 2006 the crew completed over 3500 crew hours of training including the annual 80 hour refresher, Crew boss, firing boss, squad boss, Type 4 & 5 incident commander, Class B faller, as well as pump and saw classes. Physical training included running (60 miles ran), full gear hikes (30 miles hiked), weight training, and yoga. They also attended (as well as helped run) the Arizona Wildfire Academy held in Prescott, AZ each year and the Great Plains Wildfire College.
“Granite Mountain was initial attack on 7 incidents in 2006, including the 20 acre Wolf Fire, the 1100 acre Cornfield Fire, 40 acre Green Fire & 60 acre Battle Fire all on the Prescott National Forest”, Steinbrink Stated. “We also worked fires on the Coconino NF, Kingman District BLM, Hualapai Agency BIA, Tonto NF, and Whiteriver Apache Agency BIA in Arizona as well as Reno DNR in Nevada and the Gallatin and Deerlodge National Forests in Montana.” Granite Mountain had a total of 16 fire assignments totaling 61 days and 640 hours of overtime.
Crew 7 (As they are still known thru local dispatch) continues to do fuels management work in the off season. In 2006 they treated over 49 acres and burned 3,500 tons of material. They have also assisted in Search and Rescue/Recovery Missions. “A couple years ago we had a real wet winter”, Steinbrink stated. ‘3 college students tried to canoe the flooded Granite Creek, their canoe got flipped over under the Highway 89 Bridge. One of the students made it to shore, the other two were swept away by the flood waters. Crew 7 assisted in the search of the creek for two days until the students bodies were found a few miles down stream.”
Another major accomplishment of the 2006 season ( besides earning hotshot status ), was the delivery of their new crew buggies, 2006 Ford F750 air ride chassis with caterpillar 7.2 litre diesel (275 hp) engine. Phenix Enterprises Crew Carrier box with seating for 10. These replaced Ford Vans that were the previous crew vehicles. Granite Mountain’s crew vehicles (Supt truck and crew carriers) traveled a total of 22,083 miles, throughout Nevada, Montana, Utah, Idaho and Arizona.
The crews operating costs for 2006 was approximately $400,000.00 and the crew billed for $541,233.15.
“Granite Mountain Hotshots (Trainee) would like to thank the Prescott Fire Department, Prescott City Council, Prescott City Manager, Prescott National Forest, Central West Zone Incident Management Team, the Arizona Wildfire Academy, and all the friends we’ve made along the way for their incredible support of our ground breaking program”, stated Steinbrink.
Another Arizona Fire Department that is working on finishing up everything needed to get their Hotshot program off the ground is Northwest Fire District in Marana Arizona (Northwest of Tucson). Their Type 2 I/A Crew has been in existence since 1995. Northwest Fire District Wildland Battalion Chief, Bill (Dugger) Hughes stated “NWFD Hand Crew has been following the IHOG guidelines to become a hotshot crew, but due to staffing issues we will have to wait until the 2008 season to make that happen”.
In the 2006 season NWFD Hand Crew was initial attack on several fires on the Coronado National Forest, Arizona State Land as well as Saguaro National Monument in Southern Arizona. ‘NWFD Hand Crew was dispatched to 7 large fires in 2006 totaling 72 days off district”, Hughes said. “We were on fire assignments in Montana, California and of course Arizona just to name a few”.
Our hand crew does fuels management work during the off season, much like the Granite Mountain Crew does but we don’t have the fuel load down this way like they do up there. Hughes said “We assist with prescribed burning on the Saguaro National
Monument and Coronado National Forest, and are available for all risk incidents such as search and rescue, disaster assistance etc.”
The Northwest Fire District hand crew has chosen the name Ironwood Hotshots (t) which will be official in 2008.
Any further questions or information on Granite Mountain Hotshots you may contact
Duane Steinbrink, City of Prescott Fire Department Wildland Division Chief.
duane.steinbrink (at) cityofprescott.net or call (928)445-5555
Any further questions or information on the Ironwood Hotshots you may contact Bill (Dugger) Hughes, Northwest Fire District Wildland Battalion Chief
Dugger Hughes – Battalion Chief – Wildland Ops
(520) 887-1010 Ext. 2701 / dhughes (at) northwestfire.org
Mike – Prescott AZ
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END OF WILDLAND FIRE COMMENT(S) BY MIKE – FROM PRESCOTT
So here is the only place I’ve ever seen the following DETAIL about WHEN Granite Mountain took delivery of their (possibly) $500,000 worth of Crew Carriers…
————————————————————
Another major accomplishment of the 2006 season ( besides earning hotshot status ), was the delivery of their new crew buggies, 2006 Ford F750 air ride chassis with caterpillar 7.2 litre diesel (275 hp) engine. Phenix Enterprises Crew Carrier box with seating for 10. These replaced Ford Vans that were the previous crew vehicles. Granite Mountain’s crew vehicles (Supt truck and crew carriers) traveled a total of 22,083 miles, throughout Nevada, Montana, Utah, Idaho and Arizona.
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There is also THIS in that ‘article’ the guy wrote where he says he was able to interview Duane Steinbrink, Prescott’s first Wildland Division Chief.
So the following report that ‘Granite Mountain MADE money ( $141,233 dollars ) in 2006’ was probably coming from Duane Stenibrink himself…
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The crews operating costs for 2006 was approximately $400,000.00 and the crew billed for $541,233.15.
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So once again… it’s hard to know WHO to believe here.
All I know is that somehow, somewhere… you HAVE to factor in over a half-million dollars just for those Crew Carriers.
If the 2007 purchase was ‘stretched’ over a 5 year period due to a LOAN, or something… then that amounts to at least $100,000 per year between 2007 and 2012.
There is NO EVIDENCE that was the case… but NOR is there ANY EVIDENCE where the money for these Crew Carriers came from.
They are not mentioned in ANY Prescott Budget from the years 2004 right on through to 2014… even though all OTHER vehicles being purchased by/for the Fire Department at any time during that same 10 year period DO fully ‘show up’ in the Prescott BUDGETS and FINANCIAL REPORTS.
Even the purchase of the ATV for “Granite Mountain” ( to the tune of $8,000 ) shows up in the Prescott BUDGET… but the $500,000 Crew Carriers themselves are nowhere.
Like it never happened.
Followup…
Not only is there no evidence whatsoever in any Prescott City Budget document or Financial Report ( going back to 2004 ) about the purchase of these ( possibly ) $500,000 Crew Carriers…
…there is also NOTHING in any document that says they were paid for out of any of the GRANTS that Prescott was getting.
I’m not even sure it would have been OK to take that ‘Fuels Abatement’ GRANT money and spend it for two fancy-dancy Crew Carriers… but regardless.. there seems to be NO DOCUMENTATION that that’s what they did… even if they did it.
WHO paid for the Crew Carriers ( the taxpayers of Prescott and/or the FEDS with all-country tax dollars flowing in as GRANTS ) remains a mystery.
WTKTT,
I can tell you after managing a similar program that it is never cost neutral. Because of the committment to full time employees, benefits, etc. it will always cost the district something -some years more than others, but from a firefighters accounting it all plays out over time and the benefit from the work produced far out weighs the cost (obviously my opinion). The challenge is and will be to educate the powers that be, both BOD and Chiefs of the benefits of the associated costs. Knowing that the crew may be out of area during critical times, which really takes some arduous educating! As far as the vehicles go I can’t say were they are accounted for – in my situation we purchased four crew carries and financed them over ten years – should be paid for this year I think..
Thank you. Yes… the City of Prescott had what is called a VAAP program, like many municipalities do. ( Vehicle Acquisition and Replacement Program ).
The published BUDGETS for the City of Prescott ( going back to 2004 ) show all kinds of police, fire and emergency management vehicles going INTO and coming OUT OF ( paid for ) this VAAP program.
But NOWHERE do the (potentially half-a-million-dollar ) GM Crew Carriers actually ‘show up’ in those Budget Reports in the ‘VAPP’ section(s).
Like I said above… like they never happened.
If they were flat-out paid for with “Fuel Abatement” GRANT money that WAS ‘flowing’ into that program… there is also NO EVIDENCE that is the case, either.
It’s actually ABSURD to even be talking about whether a Municipal Public Safety program ( fire, police, etc. ) is even ‘breaking even’… much less ‘making money’.
I mean… what’s the corollary?
If the police department aren’t covering their expenses as per the number of traffic tickets they generate for the city… then let’s talk about DISBANDING them?
I mean, c’mon.
If you ‘fire up’ something like this… you are SUPPOSED to already be aware that the taxpayers WILL be ‘supporting’ it… and you’re supposed to be OK with that. The CVB ( Cost Versus Benefit ) arguments is supposed to be already CLEAR in your mind before you even ‘go there’.
But apparently… that wasn’t the case in Prescott.
This “Wildland Division” of the Prescott Fire Department apparently had to keep “fighting for its very existence” even AFTER Duane Steinbrink, Darrell Willis and Eric Marsh had already done the “sell job” to get it created in the first place.
Apologies… acronym dyslexia up above.
“Vehicle Acquisition and Replacement Program” is VARP.
Agree that the vehicles, from what I’ve read were paid for out of the “General Fund” of the City of Prescott.
And agree that the fact that they’re not showing up anywhere in the financial documentation is really weird. Thanks for looking for it.
I truly don’t know what to make of it.
I’m also wondering about Jesse Steed’s truck. I’m currently thinking he may have bought it himself and had the “paint job” done.
But really, all these things considered,
Who knows?????
For that matter, did you find Eric’s truck and Willis’ truck and Tony Sciacca’s truck and Cory Moser’s truck etc?
I have learned so much from all of those posting here. I have been very critical of the Prescott response to many things concerning this tragedy. But the city self investigation into the Chief Willis’ allegations seems to have ignored some very interesting changes in what was presented to the Council. It will be very interesting to see what transpires in coming days as the Ninth Circuit ruled in the Riley vs Kuykendall suit. In that matter the mayor was found guilty of and sanctioned by Judge Teilborg for destroying email evidence. There is a pattern of recurrent behaviors of obfuscation that is germane to this matter
Gary said: “I don’t think hotshots should ever be thought of as an INTIAL attack resource, they should always be thought of as an EXTENDED attack resource.
What would you do if you committed your available hotshot crew to initial attack a particular fire when you have dozens of starts in your area from a lighting storm (or fireworks, or train sparks, or along roads from passing motorists, or from arsonists) that passed through the night before? Make a bad guess which fire to send the hotshots to for initial attack to early, and they won’t be available when a different fire, or multiple different fires on the other side of your area (forest, district, municipality) takes off about 3 p.m.”
Gary, these days, IHCs are sometimes prepositioned, and they send out “lightening crews” or squads (groups of five or so from the roster of 20 or whatever) from their prepositioned location to pick up lightening starts in various geographical areas. Maybe that did not happen back when you were working on a hotshot crew, but it certainly happens now based on what the guys are telling me. My understanding is that these guys are really good at picking things up and preventing bigger headaches down the road.
Are you saying that, in your view, this type of usage of an IHC is inappropriate?
I am sure Gary will answer this but just jumping in for another Clarification.
There are in fact 2 types of Hot Shot Crews Some what confusing but true.
IRHSC—These are financed from the Region and are first in rotation to Large Fires.
Forest Hot Shot Crews or the ( GMHS) —financed on the forest or local Funding.
Yes your guys are right the local HS Crews can and have be used on IA fires in small groups.
In reality it is not done very often when FS Regular resources are available. Like Eng. crews, Fuels Crews, trail crews, Fire Prev. People, those local resources are generally first.
There are occasional lightning fires that are to numerous on a forest to attack with the resources available. Generally the HS Crew is used on larger starts where more Man Power is needed 5 1o 10 man squads. Similar to ordering smoke jumper sticks. 3,6,12 etc.
So back to the question the answer is yes and no.
IRHS are never split or at least in my day were never.
HSC forest can and have depending on the national and Regional Fire out look.
that is not to say that the Region or NIFC may put a hold on all HS Resources and keep the in full crews ready for dispatch nationally. Happens quite often in my day and now.
So there are some hoops to jump thru to split a crew up into small squads and spread them out they are now not a Type 1 crew, till all are back together and reinstalled on the crew availability lists.
Final answer IT CAN HAPPEN BUT IT IS VERY SELDOM DONE.
Thanks for this clarification. I’ve been still a bit fuzzy, also. Looking around it seems like all the IHCs say, online, that they are available for Initial Attack, but as I’ve been reading/researching actual fires in Region 3, I haven’t seen that actually happening very much. But I have a ways to go.
You said, “IRHSC—These are financed from the Region and are first in rotation to Large Fires.” I’m still not clear what you mean about this. What, exactly does IRHSC translate into?
And your thoughts about Type 2 crews sent me searching. There are, indeed, what is beginning to look like, to me, a host of “Type 2 Initial Attack” crews in Region 3, in a variety of configurations, but still quite competent, professional, actively used, and successful. And they, so far as I’ve seen, often do a LOT of fuels reduction work when they’re not out fighting fires to both generate income/funding and gain wildfire-fighting experience.
Still, nobody gets wildfire fighting for free (much less for profit), which it still seems to me the City of Prescott currently seems to think they should have been getting.
Marti
Inter Regional Hot Shot Crews —-IRHSC
I keep seeing IHC and not sure what the I stands for or some one is using the wrong term.
Example—Sawtooth IR Crew R4 finances the crew and it is stationed in Twin Falls. The Forest supervises and maintains the crew at R4 costs the crew is not under the Forest budget requests as say Payette HS or Boise HS.
The Region set up the funding for 2 IR crews. The Forests applied for additional crews under Forest Funding. All are type 1 certified.
GMHS OR GMIHS. If the I stands for Interagency that may be something just tacked on by the city Interagency means they are shared by different agencies. They should be referred to as Granit Mountain Hot Shots they had no funding and were a basic contract crew as are most type 2 crews.
They just had the type 1 designation.
I am sure that is clear as mud — Simply the Region wanted to insure 2 Type 1 crews and called them IR crews. Other Regions do the same. So the crews are assigned to a forest as the Region dose not have the ability to provide work and supervision for them. The National office provides the funding..
Let me back track here all Hot Shot Crews are now being listed as
IHC— Interagency Hot Shot Crews my mistake although The IR designation still exists with some crews.
The other IR Crew In R4 is the Logan IRHSC
There Dispatch Statius is listed as NAME IHC
Under Type 1 Crews..
Hope that helps— So GM may well have been ID as a IHC under the Type 1 Crews Nation wide. My mistake.
So, given this whole conversation about what IHCs do regarding IA, especially regarding (but not limited to) Granite Mountain IHC (especially given what the City of Prescott is doing), I’ve definitely been wondering exactly what their role was on the Doce Fire.
It’s really hard to figure out (thanks InciWeb!!!)
There’s really not a lot of specific documentation. The closest I can find is a combination of two things.
So this is a bit rough.
According to a 6-27-2013 article in the Daily Courier by Joanna Dodder Nellans:
“DOCE FIRE: Ground coordination, air support helped save homes from blaze”
http://dcourier.com/main.asp?SectionID=1&SubSectionID=1&ArticleID=120619
“A combination of plentiful air support and well-oiled coordination on the ground made all the difference in preventing the Doce fire from torching any homes, Doce Fire Incident Commander Tony Sciacca said.
Local fire and law enforcement agencies spend a lot of time working together and just this spring, they conducted an extensive drill as a new Northern Arizona Type III incident management team led by Groom Creek Fire District Chief Todd Bentley.”
Tony Sciacca, who is quoted in this while he was the later Type 1 IC, was not the original IC. Todd Bentley was. But Tony Sciacca was the OPS on that Initial Type 3 Team.
The article continues:
“Many of those team members were part of the initial attack around 11:30 a.m. June 18 on the Doce fire just west of Prescott. Sciacca, a retired Prescott National Forest fire manager who also runs the Arizona Wildfire Academy here, ran the operations section with the help of Eric Marsh and Jerry Anderson.”
Jerry Anderson was the “US Forest Service Spokesman” (I can’t give the link which describes this right now but it exists somewhere). Given the intensity of the need for communications with the public, I would guess that’s why Sciacca mentions here that person.
The other being “with help of Eric Marsh.”
From what I’ve read, the Doce Fire rapidly, after being ignited early mid-day June 18, 2013, burned uphill on Granite Mountain from the southwest and then kept even more rapidly burning downhill on Granite Mountain on its east side, threatening a whole bunch of homes in that direction. It really expanded rapidly.
Keep in mind that the overall significance of what this narrative is saying is that a serious amount of previous planning was what made the response to the Doce Fire effective.
And I’m betting, all things considered (to be continued) Eric Marsh and GMIHC was a part of that previous planning.
By the way Todd Abel was also a HUGE part of both that previous planning and the initial action on that fire.
Which is part of why I wonder about how the current City Of Prescott plan may impact the Central Yavapai Fire District wildfire work.
Correction. I should have written:
“And I’m betting, all things considered (to be continued) Eric Marsh and GMIHC was a part of that previous planning and, thence the Initial Attack.”
The next document I finally found regarding the Doce Fire and GMIHC “Initial Attack” is this document from the Prescott National Forest that I had to open a “cached” page of.
“Doce Fire Programmatic/Cost Fire Review
Prescott National Forest
U.S. Forest Service
May 2014”
http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:fTFnzn1rMgQJ:www.fs.fed.us/fire/publications/fire_review_reports/2013/doce_cost.docx+&cd=7&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us&client=safari
It’s quite an interesting read about all the factors that went into, relatively speaking, successfully (including financially) corralling the Doce Fire.