Investigative MEDIA

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  2. FYI- Karen Fann was really on the ball today making sure she got my email. I am really looking forward to posting her reply to me…whatever it say’s and whenever it comes.

    She actually seems to be a really concerned and dedicated representative of the people when I am communicating with her one on one.

    But then again…she probably has a hard time squaring my one on one emails with what I write here as well.

    Everybody has an angle.

    Reply

    • I just checked…the spot price for copper is a little less than $2.00 per pound and the spot price for brass is a little less than $1.50 per pound.

      Copper thieves climb up on commercial buildings in Phoenix and spend the night ripping wires out of the roofs and air conditioning units to sell by the pound. And they have to go burn the insulation wires off that first, which is hard, time consuming, and dirty work.

      How long do you think a statue made out of bronze sitting unattended in a remote area that weighs hundreds (?) of pounds is going to last when It can be taken in one fell swoop?

      It’s time for a reality check!

      Reply

      • I think this ‘larger than life-size’ bronze statuary thing ( 1.25 scale ) has always been a really, really BAD idea ( for all the reasons you have pointed out and then some ).

        Not only does it add a tremendous COST to the project… which the Arizona legislature is unwilling to fund and has to be done with ‘donations’ ( which they may or may not even get )… it’s just simply not necessary.

        I guarantee you… just about anyone who sets off on that 2 mile, steep uphill hike just to reach that point up on the ridge where that ‘alternate escape route’ actually turned to the east towards the Boulder Springs Ranch already knows why they are going up there… and what a wildland firefighter is.

        They don’t need to see some ( expensive ) bronze figures holding chainsaws and pulaskis to ‘get the picture’.

        And as for the “Larry the Lookout’ statue… I think that’s the worst idea of all.

        I’ve been wondering what this statue’s nickname should be and decided that ‘Larry’ is about as good as anything.

        LARRY stands for…

        “Lookout ( that was ) Absent ( that day ) Retroactively Returning ( to ) Yarnell”

        They should DROP the ‘statuary’ idea.

        Having that sort of thing in a completely UNATTENDED boondock park has NEVER been a good idea… for all the reasons you mention.

        What if they get hit by lightning up there on that ridge it ends up causing ANOTHER Yarnell Fire when the vegetation grows back?

        Not even worth the risk.

        Reply

        • Right. And I guess I keep thinking they were talking about putting one down by the main highway, but maybe I remember that wrong? I don’t think any meth heads would carry the things down off the mountain, but they had better not be near any road. I just really like the rock cairn idea, it is so simple and so poignant given the Ashcraft story and the aspect of enabling visitors who want to “do” something to make it a little better. .

          I don’t know if you have ever been to the plaza around the courthouse in downtown Prescott, but that is were they have a gigantic statue of Bucky O’neil on a charging horse. He was a Prescott cowboy who ended up with the Rough Riders charging up San Juan Hill with Teddy Roosevelt that’s at the front (north) end of the courthouse.

          Then there is a war memorial on the west side and another gigantic statue of a cowboy laying down with his gigantic horse behind him like he is overlooking the valley of the Little Big Horn on the south end.

          There isn’t anything on the east side where they park the prisoner vans take them into court. Everyone else uses that entrance as well. Anyway…I think that would be a really good place to put some more statues if they get the money to buy them.

          But I don’t think any of “them” want to hear my opinion where I really think they can stick their statues. In any case, it will be interesting to see how it plays out. I guess I am wondering if they can raise another two million on top of the thirteen or fourteen million they already raised to donate to the families?

          Reply

          • And I really, really, really…REALLY HATE the idea of a statue representing a lookout…unless they arc weld his head to his ass.

            Reply

            • Well back to the Simple. I think the Rattle Snake Fire Memorial is a great example of what a Memorial is all about.
              Metal 2.5 inch square tubes made into Crosses cemented into the ground and painted white. with a trail from a parking lot with a Bathroom FS camp ground stile. You can hike out to and visit each cross some are in a group some are scattered out in different directions where the Fire fighters ran to before they were overcome.
              My dad with 7 others were in one group the other 7 were scattered over a larger area one made a run of almost 300 yards and was just below the Road. But trails to all and a spot they keep open of brush representing the Spot Fire.
              On the road looking strait across the canyon at the site and Crosses they have a very nice explanation area with metal pictures of the 15 a bell from the Missionary camp Seats and a Picnic table.
              Those have been there for almost 10 years now and well kept by the FS recreation department no vandalism has occurred.
              It is a 40 min. drive from Interstate 5 to the west.
              It is a learning area where people can walk thru the crosses sit amongst them feel the terrain and see the thick brush stand in the Spot Fire and see where they were in relation to the Main Fire.
              Discuss the discussions made and what they could do or would do different. Many and I mean many fire crews from northern and central California State and Feds use the site for training every spring. I could not tell you if or how many Civilians go there its not a real destination site but dose get visitors because of its access.

              I can tell you as a FF I can stand there and feel the heat the Panic the screams the excretion of crawling thru the brush while the Big Dog is breathing down your neck and you know you are trapped. Some stay to gather some take off on their own The brush is so thick you wonder how they got as far as they did.
              I am glad for and very proud of this memorial though for me as a son and a FF it is a very hard place to go and stand among the Crosses and look at my Dads and the other 7 with him. I know and feel the horror that they went thru. The Lessons learned are what is the value of a Memorial about wild land fire fatalities.

              The Yarnell Hill Fire Memorial for new recruits and other Fire Fighters would send a real training message if they could stand amongst the Crosses and feel the impact of the deployment site when the brush grows back the small area they were in and understand how they got there. The memorial dose not have to be a 911 show place it should be a education spot a place to reflect on wild land Fire fighting and the 10 and 18. It is not statues it is the men their memories and their fight to survive the mistakes that were made that give others pause. The memories of the families for the location of their last stand. IT IS NOT A GRAVE YARD.

              Reply

              • Amen Bob…to everything you said.

                And now, I would like to weigh in on something Sonny has said many, many, many times that I have never responded to and that is because I haven’t known what to say.

                But I have finally thought of a way to put my thoughts into writing…and since you brought it up in an oblique way, now is my time.

                And that is Sonny’s idea about using the Yarnell Hill Fire area as a training ground. And once again, I might just be the negative one (the Granite Mountain Hotshot Memorial Park stuff might be there for 100 years and not have anybody vandalize it) but we are a product of our life’s experiences and my have mostly been negative. So…no matter where I go, there I am.

                But forgive me, once again….I digress. And I would like you to weigh in on this and set me straight if I have got it all wrong, or even partially wrong.

                The problem with turning the Yarnell Hill Fire area into a training ground is that the wildland firefighting community as a whole, and that includes the big dog…the USFS, does not spend squat on training wildland firefighters.

                I think the general public would be shocked at how little time and money is spent on training even the best of the best. WTKTT made some comment months ago that the Granite Mountain Hotshots hardly fit the build up of a Type 1 crew because of the number of new people and the amount of training they had received.

                And the fact is, they were probably on par with almost everyone else and better than most. NOBODY gets the training they need or deserve. Almost all training is done in place, wherever that may be, by whoever is available to do so, whoever that may be, using very general, canned and usually outdated training materials that border on cartoon figures that are subpar to Sesame Street educational programs.

                Almost all training is done on-the-job by those who have been there longer than the trainee, even if it is by only a few days. The turnover is incredibly high (yes…I was a fucking Rock Star, that is why I was a hotshot crew boss at age 23….NOT) because the benefits and the pay, unless you are working on overtime, on a fire with hazard pay, on Sunday, at night, and on a holiday really sucks for the job you do.

                And in this day and age of budget cutbacks that have been rampant ever since our UNFUNDED INVASION OF IRAG IN OUR WAR BY CHOICE, things have been much, much, much, worse. And they are not going to get better anytime soon.

                Normally you can tell if you are trained up and a veteran on a hotshot crew simply because you haven’t quit or been killed or seriously hurt…yet.

                “They’ are never going to turn the Yarnell Hill Fire into a training ground except as a staff ride as some point that very few, who work nearby, will ever get to attend. They don’t have any training ground or academy anywhere, except for Marana for a very select few for very specialized training.

                And nowadays, entry firefighters are even expected to get their basic training on their own dime…before they get hired. Hence, the success of the Arizona Wildfire Academy or whatever that is that Marsh started in his living room.. I paid for my son to attend that very academy so he could get hired as an entry level wildland firefighter to beat out somebody that hadn’t paid for the fucking training out-of-pocket…SHIT!

                What say you Bob?

                Reply

                • Oh…and one more thing. I think the general public is wrong about how much training they think wildland firefighters get because they are aware that the institutions that are most often thought of as being similar to the wildland firefighting “community”, do in fact train their recruits.

                  The U.S. Military…trains their recruits.

                  Law Enforcement Departments/Agencies….trains their recruits.

                  Structural Fire Departments….trains their recruits.

                  MacDonald’s Restaurants…trains their recruits.

                  The Wildland Firefighting Community….wings it on the fly.

                  Reply

                  • Since I am spun up right now and getting worse by the minute…let me tell you one more little secret…but please keep it between us.

                    The reason why I succeeded as a hotshot crew boss at age 23 was because I trained under 2 fucking crew bosses who were Rock Stars AND I had a United States Forest Service old school Fire Management Officer who had clawed his way up the ranks as my MENTOR! And I worked for 3 other old school Rock Star USFS FMO’s who I was also able to emulate.

                    All USFS FMO’s are fucking Rock Stars by definition. They really are the best of the best as a group.

                    Now…to take one more layer off the onion. The reason Eric Marsh killed his crew is because he did not train under ANY hotshot crew bosses, and his mentor…was Darrell Fucking Willis! THAT’S WHY!

                    Excuse…now it’s time for me to go get a massage.

                    Reply

                    • Whoops. I should have specified that I have not doubt in his world…the world of blue shirt structural FIREMEN…Darrell Willis was a true Rock Star of the highest order and as such, deserves a tremendous amount of respect.

                      But not in OUR HOUSE!

                • Well Gary I would have to Disagree with you.
                  But that may be because I was in California in the 60s and 70s where training was a high priority or my Supervisors were really high on getting training for their employees.
                  I was also lucky in Idaho to be close to NIFC in Boise where there were classes going all the Time and easy to get to.

                  The Sawtooth Hot Shots went thru the 40 hr. Crew training every year and got Squad boss and Crew boss training for all their foreman the ones on 13/13 are sent to severial S-courses during the off season. I know that still happens. Also the JR collage here has a FF training course in the Spring. There are also now computer courses that are certifiable on Fire training. including the ICS system which all FF must go thru.
                  Again all North Zone California Hot Shot Crews, Engine Crews from FS, BLM, and CalFire go to the Rattle Snake Fire for a Day with travel and discuss the entrapment the 10 and 18 and what happened and why. it could be the same on Yarnell.
                  I know severial crews also go to Storm king Mt. for the same thing although probably not as much.
                  I do believe there is more training today than 25 years ago. Also crews are hamstrung by fire seasons like the ones currently going they have less time for training during the Summer.

                  Reply

                  • A side note —at the dedication for the Rattle Snake Memorial there were Cal Fire crews and Engines along with 3 HS Crews and Severial FS Engines besides the Civilians there it was a huge crowd. there was a Bus shuttle due to the narrow forest road to the site.
                    roughly 400 people this was 50 years after the Fire.

                    Reply

                    • Good…because we kind of winged it on the Mighty Coconino. The new guys always got the 40 hours of course, but after that, it was OJT on the fire line.

                      Cross bosses went to Marana and had advanced training at Region etc. But never for the squad bosses or below. Training was always a low priority.

                      But like WTKTT say’s, we weren’t exactly rocket scientists and like I have said before, it was pretty simple work, which I really like about the job.

                      1. Cut hand line and burn it out.
                      2. Cut hand line and back fire it.
                      3. Cut hand line, burn it out and back fire it.
                      4. Repeat as often as necessary.

                      And I loved it.

  3. WTKTT,

    Please refresh our memories by using you “Wayback” tool as to where the rock cairn memorial idea came from. Didn’t it start because Andrew Ashcraft always took a rock home to one of his boys from a fire? And then I think you (and maybe some other people) expanded on that idea?

    Thanks

    Reply

    • Reply to Gary Olson post on October 26, 2015 at 2:15 pm

      >> Gary Olson said…
      >>
      >> WTKTT, Please refresh our memories by using you “Wayback” tool as
      >> to where the rock cairn memorial idea came from. Didn’t it start because
      >> Andrew Ashcraft always took a rock home to one of his boys from a fire?
      >> And then I think you (and maybe some other people) expanded on that idea?

      No ‘wayback’ machine needed. It was discussed down below right here in this chapter ( direct link is below ).

      But it is Sonny and Joy who have ALREADY started this ‘tradition’.

      The fact that ( yes ) Andrew Ashcraft would always bring his oldest boy Ryder a ‘rock’ back from every fire… and the one he was bringing to Ryder from Yarnell WAS found in his burned-up backpack and returned to his widow, Juliann, just adds to ‘the story’.

      Very shortly after the tragedy itself, Sonny and Joy had the presence of mind to start ‘the tradition’ by marking the spot near the anchor point where they last saw the Granite Mountain Hotshots with a small pile of rocks.

      As they continued their hikes up there ( this is on land that had NOT been closed by Arizona Land Department ) they ( and others, like Travis Turbyfill’s father David ) kept adding rocks to that pile.

      Sonny just reminded us that he and Joy had done that… and I commented back that this would be an excellent way to honor those that died down near the deployment site itself… ESPECIALLY because of this other story about Andrew and what he would always do for his son Ryder.

      It was Juliann Aschcraft herself who first told this story publicly on her new BLOG.

      Here is a direct link to ‘that story’ down below in this Chapter 16 of this ongoing discussion of the Yarnell Hill Fire ( and the other tragedies SINCE that one )…

      http://www.investigativemedia.com/yarnell-hill-fire-chapter-xvi/#comment-309236

      Here is some of the ‘text’ from that thread down below…

      ———————————————————————————-
      >> Sonny said…
      >>
      >> WTKKT Well said. Thanks and that is exactly how the situation would be,
      >> A simple rock mound where visitors cast a rock would build a memorial that
      >> each person could remember them by. Joy and I started one along the trail
      >> going up and left a message if you pass place a stone in remembrance
      >> of the men.

      Yes. I have seen that rock pile memorial that you and Joy have already started ( at the last place you saw the men that day ) in many of the publicly released photos.

      I think it’s very fitting and respectful.

      When people visit a place where something tragic took place… there usually comes a moment when you have this strange urge to just DO something. Anything at all. The simple act of just ‘placing a rock’ there with your own hand is a timeless cross-cultural way to fulfill that need to just ‘do something’… and show respect.

      >> Sonny also said…
      >>
      >> It was a fitting way to show respect and although that monument
      >> is high up the mountain many left stones as they passed. Some
      >> left stones with messages on them. Over time the monument
      >> would build and be seen high above the manzanita–that is
      >> if all are allowed to pay their respects.

      I think that’s a great idea, Sonny.

      It would not surprise me if that sort of thing just starts to happen automatically when this ‘park’ opens to the public… but it would be better if it was actually ‘planned for’ by this committee. Over the years… it would become quite something to see.

      I don’t know if you knew about this… but the reason it would be even MORE fitting is because of something Andrew Ashcraft himself would always do.

      His son, Ryder, loved ROCKS.

      Andrew would always pick UP a rock at each fire he went to and bring it HOME to Ryder.

      When Juliann Ashcraft was presented with what was left from the contents of her husband Andrew’s field pack following the Yarnell tragedy… one of the things recovered from the pack was a ROCK from the Yarnell Fire that Andrew had already spotted and picked up that day and was the one he was bringing home to Ryder from Yarnell.

      Juliann Ashcraft tells the story herself far better than anyone else could.

      Here is Juliann Ashcraft’s BLOG entry about her visit with Holly Neill and her husband Wayne at the start of Juliann’s ‘Spread the Better’ 50 state tour..

      That visit, itself, became about ‘rock hunting’, and there are also some great photos on this same BLOG page.

      http://bebetterbrigade.blogspot.com/2015/04/holly-and-wayne-farmington-nm.html

      NOTE: ‘Ryder Ashcraft’ is one of Andrew and Juliann’s 4 children. He is the oldest of their 3 sons. He was born on June 4, 2007 and is now 8 years old.

      In Juliann’s own words…
      —————————————————————————
      Collecting rocks has been a meaningful past time in Ryder’s life. It is an activity that he shared with his Dad. Andrew would pick up a rock on each fire he went on as part of the Granite Mountain Hotshot Crew and bring it home to Ryder. It was a memory for him of the various fires he went on, and it gave Ryder something to look forward to each time that he watched his Daddy leave for another long work trip. When we received Andrew’s belongings after he lost his life in Yarnell, a beautiful gift for Ryder was found in the side pocket of his pack…a rock from the Yarnell Hill Fire that his Dad had picked out just for him before he passed away. Ryder’s Uncle T.J. (Andrew’s big brother) presented that rock to Ryder just as his Daddy would have if he were here. A cherished moment in Ryder’s life.
      —————————————————————————

      So… yea, Sonny.

      ‘Rocks’ are now (already) a ‘part of the legend’ of the ‘Yarnell Hill Tragedy’ and your idea is an excellent one.

      Ryder is only 8 years old.

      He will grow up to be a MAN someday… and imagine how pleased he might be ( as the years go by ) to discover that thousands and thousands of people keep (respectfully) stacking ‘rocks’ at the place where his Daddy died… just like his Daddy used to diligently bring rocks HOME to HIM.

      I just hope this can happen NEAR where those men died… and not have to be in some ‘other’ place and be just an ongoing monument to how ‘the public’ isn’t even ALLOWED to get ‘near’ that place.

      I hope that anyone who feels the urge to ‘stack a rock’ ( for Andrew, or ANY of those departed souls ) and wants it to be NEAR the spot where they died…

      …doesn’t have to THROW THE ROCK just to get it there.
      ———————————————————————————-

      PS: I have news for the ‘Yarnell Hill Memorial Site Board’.

      I think this ‘tradition’ is bound to continue down there near the deployment site… and there isn’t a damn thing they can do about it… so they might as well PLAN for it ( as in… pick a spot where people CAN / SHOULD place their own rock(s)… and encourage them to do it. )

      As the years go by… it will become quite something to see ( especially for Ryder ).

      Matter of fact… I certainly hope this architect doesn’t have his head so far up his ass that he thinks he’s going to import the ‘ric-rak’ for the (planned) short walls from Home Depot.

      That will just look absurd… to see some kind of non-native rock there.

      I understand that one of the reasons for these ‘short walls’ is because the deployment site itself is in a slight ‘depression’ out there and they have already been numerous ‘flooding’ incidents… but there is still no need to import the rock from Home Depot.

      Just use rock from elsewhere on-site… and then just let people ADD TO IT.

      There would even be that additional benefit for people visiting the site knowing that they are HELPING to prevent site erosion, as well as ‘respecting’ the site itself with ‘their small gift’. There could then be another ‘overflow’ pile started to handle the ( eventual ) overflow. when the short-walls get as high as they need to be.

      It’s also worth pointing out that if this Memorial Board does NOT raise the money they need through donations to carry out the ‘Bronze statues and Marble Crosses’ plan… they are going to have to PUNT and do something simpler ( and much cheaper ), anyway.

      Reply

  4. This is an open email to Arizona State Representative Karen Fann regarding the Granite Mountain Hotshot Memorial State Park Board and Granite Mountain Hotshot Memorial Park.

    Please allow me to give you an Executive Summary of the current problem with the direction the Yarnell Hill Memorial Site Board is going, just in case you don’t have time to read my entire email. I know you are a very busy representative of the people and I really get down in the weeds with some specific recommendations.

    EXECUTIVE SUMMARY

    The Arizona State Legislature ceded the authority to manage the Granite Mountain Hotshot Memorial State Park (hereafter referred to as the Park) to the Yarnell Hill Memorial Site Board (hereafter referred to as the Board). The Board is now managing this publicly owned resource in an arbitrary, capricious and selective manner based on the whims of the Board, most of whom are private citizens with absolutely no idea how to manage a public resource because they lack the knowledge, experience or training to do so.

    Furthermore, future access now appears to be under the direction of one specific board member… Mrs. Amanda Beno Marsh. I believe that Mrs. Beno Marsh is neither qualified nor emotionally fit to be making decisions whether or not I get to visit the new state park to honor and pay my respects to the memory of the Granite Mountain Hotshots.

    I don’t want to stand on a hill overlooking what has come to be known as the deployment site. I want to visit the same Park that thousands of firefighters, extended families of the Granite Mountain Hotshots and all of their guests get to visit.

    At a recent hearing Mrs. Beno Marsh make a number of disturbing statements that I believe very much call into question her fitness to have the lead in managing my or anyone else’s access to the Park and in fact, I think these statements disqualify her for that job. This hearing took place in the courtroom of Prescott Judge Arthur Markham on January 8, 2015, in the matter of a request for an injunction against harassment filed a week earlier by Ms. Amanda Beno-Marsh against Ms. Joy A. Collura.

    Perhaps most disturbing is the fact that Mrs. Marsh did not make the following verbatim statements extemporaneously, these statements were read from a PREPARED WRITTEN STATEMENT under oath to Judge Markham.

    “I am trying to protect the closure area and deployment site, and I am trying to put my world back together.”

    “I am a fragile widow of a national tragedy.”

    “I was married to the golden boy… and everyone seems to want a piece of him…”

    “Psychics [and mediums] in the closure area and in and around the deployment site trying to contact Eric and my friends… or crazy conspiracy theories [Who…me?].”

    “As Eric’s spouse… I should be allowed the dignity of not having to have that nonsense [psychics and mediums] around me… that she contacts me and tells me about her psychic… who calls herself “the lady of the dead”. How offensive is that?”

    “My husband DIED there.”

    “His was a scary ending… and very brutal… and it hurts me and horrifies me.”

    “It is a sacred place to me… and that is why I fight to protect the site.”

    I have included the entire transcript from this proceeding as an attachment to this email so you can read these statements and a number of other highly questionable and emotionally charged statements in their entirety and context.

    For example Mrs. Beno Marsh stated, “I don’t know if you’re familiar with the Helms Ranch… but it was a safe zone where Eric was trying to go to save his life.” This statement is completely irrational and is contrary to all of the available evidence. Is this the kind of misstatements and false representations that are going to be approved by the Board for the interpretive signs at the Park? Is it going to be a Park to commemorate lies, satisfy personal agendas and a monument to celebrate business and personal connections to corruptible politicians?

    Although psychics and mediums are probably not a very big part of your base, I think they are entitled to the same rights and privileges as every other citizen of this country…don’t you? And if I were a medium I would contact our founding fathers and ask them how they feel about this issue. What do you think they would say?

    And if I were a psychic, I would look into the future of anyone who violates the constitutional rights and discriminates against U.S. citizens based on whether or not they are psychics or mediums in an official capacity and I predict I would see problems ahead for those people…maybe from the ACLU or a like minded organization. Or maybe just from good people who believe the U.S. Constitution should apply to all citizens, not just Fundamentalist Christians.

    And I do have some good news for Mrs. Beno Marsh…I do not want a piece of “the golden boy”, I just want the same access to the Park that thousands of other people have currently have because of the Board’s “exemptions and special privileges policy.” It’s really a pretty simple request.

    I do know a little bit about personal trauma in my life. My father was killed in an underground uranium mine when he was crushed by heavy equipment and knocked down a very deep mine shaft in 1958. Given the frantic demand for large quantities of uranium this country needed at the time to produce thousands of nuclear bombs to protect us from the very real threat posed to our nation by the Soviet Union, and given the lack of safety standards to protect the men who dug the uranium from the earth, I think my father was a national hero as well…wouldn’t you agree?

    I believe my mother was entitled to her privacy as a private citizen following his death because she did not present herself as a public figure on a mission to turn the site of his death into a private memorial site using public funds. Mrs. Beno Marsh has forfeited that same right. Although I would not have put my mother in charge of a memorial site to my father even if they would have wanted to make one. My mother was an emotional wreck at the time and for the rest of her life when it came to the sudden, unexpected and traumatic death of her husband. She was not in any shape to be making public policy decisions based on her personal experience any more than Mrs. Beno Marsh is regarding the death of her husband.

    The arrogance of the Board is astonishing and is only surpassed by their naivety. But don’t worry, I am going to give you and them much of the guidance you so desperately need…pro bono. After all, you and so many others paid for all of my training and experience and I deeply appreciate your efforts. So, consider this is a small return on your investment and not an application for a consulting position…neither you nor the Board can’t afford me. My time is now…priceless.

    Reply

    • Part 2

      Most of this post is part of my on-line resume building to back up my opinions with my work history. If you already believe that I am a Subject Matter Expert (SME) in any area I claim to be…please skip most of this because it will bore you.

      I want to get out in front of this subject because I guarantee you that monitoring and protecting the Park is going to be a nightmare and a black hole for man hours. When I was working for the BLM (Washington Office) as a Supervisory Criminal Investigator (Sr. Special Agent), I worked out of the BLM Arizona State Office in Phoenix, for two different periods from 1992-1997 and from 2003-2006. During my first years (5 that seemed like 50) there was a BLM Special Agent assigned full time to dealing with hazardous waste dumping on BLM lands in Arizona, which comprises some 15 million acres.

      BUT…most of the dumping occurred around the Phoenix Metropolitan area because that is where the people are and there is a lot of BLM land around the Valley of the Sun proper. So the biggest problem associated with hazardous waste dumping were with the bad guys who would strip thousands of dollars worth of copper wire from commercial buildings and in the process do hundreds of thousands of dollars worth of damage to the facilities that they would then sell to metal scrap yards.

      A few years ago while living in northern Arizona I saw news programs where this was still occurring in the Valley Of The Sun and the news stories were specific to copper wire being torn out of area lighting at city parks. It is almost impossible to believe that there are those people out there who are willing to work that hard, and do that much damage, for so little in return. But they are out there.

      The problem for the BLM came when these same individuals would take the insulated copper wire out to the desert surrounding Phoenix, make a big pile out of it, pour accelerants on it and burn all of the insulation and other material off the copper wire itself. Pretty stupid…right?

      They would then take the copper wire to one of the recycling centers and sell it for a few pennies a pound leaving behind a hazardous waste site that needed to be cleaned up according to EPA standards. The problem was so bad and so destructive that the Phoenix Police Department hosted an interagency task force just to deal with this problem, to which the BLM Special Agent who specialized in investigating hazardous waste cases was assigned as a member.

      While I was the Forest (Chief) Law Enforcement Officer on the Santa Fe National Forest (which comprises approximately 3 million acres of land in New Mexico), part of my job with a few other officers was to do my best to put a band aid on the equivalent of a sucking chest wound to try and stem the illegal use of National Forest Land.

      This illegal use included the wholesale and commercial removal of forest products which included but was not limited to the following illegal activities, logging, cutting down trees for fire wood, vigas & latillas for Spanish style buildings and Christmas Trees, removal of boulders to be used for landscaping and commercial building, marijuana grows, methamphetamine manufacturing and clandestine runways for drug smuggling and tens of thousands of known archeological sites that were periodically looted for artifacts and just about anything else you can think of to make money either from forest products or by using National Forest Land.

      To try and get a handle on problems like these, I got heavily involved very early in my law enforcement career in the remote sensing and monitoring of areas by heavily using electronic monitoring equipment. This was due to limited manpower and budgets in addition to the size and the remoteness of the area I was responsible. My experience included ground breaking work very early because of my personal interest in, and fascination of…gadgets.

      My experience included extensive work with the Spartan, Qualtron, and Teleonics corporations just to name some of the major players in the industry where I received training in how to use their equipment at their factories. I was also heavily involved with the Sandia National Laboratories on the Kirkland Air Force Base in Albuquerque because they were taking the lead in a “swords to plowshares” program. This program used their scientists to develop commercial application for gadgets. This technology was then given to private industry to mass produce for profit. My experience using this type of technology continued throughout my drug interdiction work and other investigations for the remainder of my career.

      Two years after I retired, the military and a federal agency hosted a national interagency summit to discuss the status and the way forward for the use of remote sensing and monitoring near Washington D.C., in Shepherdstown, West Virginia. I was asked to attend this summit as a nationally recognized SME and to represent my former agency. My expenses were paid by the sponsoring agency.

      To make a long story short…I am an expert in the acquisition, application and deployment of remote site electronic monitoring systems. I also know how crazy people out there are and the lengths they will go to and the things they will do to acquire scrap metal defies all logic. And that is not even considering the fact that these metal statues that are being proposed may actually be worth something as art, although finding a buyer will be problematic but not an insurmountable challenge for the people I am talking about. They will steal it just because they can and for no other conceivable purpose.

      The monitoring of remote sites using electronic equipment can work under some very specific conditions and with a lot of luck. Sometimes the luck comes simply because in the process of maintaining the sensor network, law enforcement is more focused on the area and may randomly catch somebody in the act of vandalism. And based on my experience, the real value of sensors and cameras comes after somebody is caught by using them. Then the word gets out the entire area is bugged by the government and is being monitored by satellites to people who are used to watching fantastical things on movies and TV. Therefore, by catching one bad guy you will stop a thousand from even thinking about trying the same thing. Here are the conditions under which a sensor and camera monitoring network can work;

      1. Acquire the right equipment from a major manufacturer. It won’t be cheap, but it will be far less expensive than buying similar equipment from a start up that won’t still be in business when you need replacement parts, maintenance, or to add on your current network. I think given the location etc., that company will be Telonics in Mesa, Arizona, but it will probably require somebody to do some creative sole source purchasing.

      2. Field a highly trained team to professionally install and then maintain the right equipment. This needs to be done covertly during off hours. The right equipment needs to be constantly maintained because weather can expose it or animals can dig it up…and then it will be stolen. I know, that has happened to me more than once. The batteries also have a shorter life than the installers will like, especially after the equipment starts recording a lot of false positives.

      3. The right equipment needs to be constantly monitored…24/7, every day of the year.

      4. There needs to be a response team to check positive hits. And given the size of the area and the variety of access points, there will probably need to be more than one response team to adequately cover the area. Everyone participating in the installation, monitoring or response to this equipment needs to be prepared to deal with a lot of false positive hits, no matter how good your equipment is, or how professionally it is installed…a lot of false hits are inevitable.

      Hey…all I can say is that I had a relatively long career, especially under the circumstances and I have always had to deal with Adult Attention Deficit Disorder, I hated to be in an office, and I liked to get involved in a lot of things. In other words…I always went out looking for trouble, and sometimes I found it.

      Reply

    • Part 3

      Your Board lacks two very important and key components. The first is one is a senior Park Ranger who has been on the job for a long time to tell you I am right. And the second is a representative from the Yavapai County Sherriff’s Office to tell you everything they can’t afford to do for you because they lack both the manpower and the budget to provide a private security force for the Park. And if the Board is already consulting with senior rangers, they need to start listening to them.

      I really do think however, that the Board needs to scale back on their unrealistic and grandiose plans, “harden” the targets of opportunity they do keep, or move their entire project to the plaza around the Yavapai Courthouse in downtown Prescott or out to Station 7 so the investment everybody else is going to make in their personal pet project can be protected and managed. Several people on Investigative Media have discussed making a simple monument out at the site that I really like. Ask visitors to add a rock to a pile in memory of the Granite Mountain Hotshots out of their respect for them and their sacrifice. Move the statues and interpretive plaques to town so you can maintain and protect them.

      Have you ever been to any kind of interpretive park that has displays in unattended locations that haven’t been vandalized? I haven’t. And I have been to a lot of them and none of them were anywhere near as remote and isolated as the Park is going to be.

      There are only two kinds of displays in these parks, those that been vandalized and those that will be vandalized. I don’t know why there are so many very stupid and very bad people out there who do very stupid and very bad things, but there are.

      These people didn’t respect OUR GMIHC when they were alive, they sure as hell don’t respect their memory. They can’t…they don’t even respect themselves.

      The Board has always been confused by what one of their real problems is, and it isn’t the people like me who care, their problem is that precious few other people do care. Don’t look now, but the tragedy that befell the GMIHC is already a footnote in history. The world has moved on. And to a great extent, the wildland firefighting community has moved on. They have already had new disasters and there are more on the way! The Yarnell Hill Fire is yesterday’s news.

      And speaking of what one of the Board’s very real problem’s is, it is not people wanting to go to the site, their problem is that very few people WILL go to the site after the newness wears off. The Board’s best day will be the day of the Parks dedication and it will be all downhill from there. Another one of their very real problems is not the good citizens your law will turn away from the Park and discourage from even making the steep and very long trek through some God forsaken country.

      The good people will obey your signs and either not go up there or turn around at the top when you tell them to. The real problem is the bad people who will pause at your signs only long enough to deface them…if they don’t just tear them down. The Boards planned very expensive and beautiful statues will be defaced and vandalized, it’s only a question of when, if they are not stolen outright. What are they thinking? They are setting themselves up for another very expensive heartbreak.

      So…here is what they need to do, encourage as many good people as possible to go down to the deployment site. They want good people there as often as they can get them to go there. They can call them “site stewards” or “site monitors”, but whatever they call them, they need as many of them as they can get there to keep an eye on things and report to the authorities any bad things they have see just as quickly as they can, so corrective and enforcement action can be taken as quickly as possible. The more good people you have in the area will keep the bad people from doing things just because the area is remote and unattended.
      Although I might be wrong about ANYONE turning away regardless of what the signs say. Maybe they already got the answer they needed from Board member Darrell Willis. Mr. Willis stated there will be no way to keep people out of the area who want to go and pay their respects to the fallen… people will still go and there will still have be a problem. What comes next to satisfy the Widows need to have a private memorial site at taxpayer expense. Armed guards 24/7?

      So maybe you should do the hard job people elected you to do for the people, we are after all, a representative democracy, and you are the representative for all of the people, not just the area ranchers. Take steps to take the land needed to create a manageable Park through Imminent Domain.

      I remember when the State Route 51 (SR 51), also known as the Piestewa Freeway was called the little road that goes up through Dreamy Draw. If you followed that little road, it took you to a relatively isolated and sleepy part of the Valley of the Sun called Paradise Valley (Phoenix). I was also living in Paradise Valley and working at Central and Van Buren in downtown Phoenix at the time.

      Then the politicians who get paid to represent ALL of the people made some really hard decisions that tore apart the lives of tens of thousands of residents of that area. They took the land needed to build the Piestewa Freeway from the people who owned it, some of them had owned it and lived there for decades through Eminent Domain because that was the best thing to do for the majority of people and for the future growth of the Phoenix metropolitan area and Arizona in general.

      I think you should do the same thing to provide for greater access by vehicle to the deployment site. And as a side benefit for the state, it will give the state parks department a fighting chance to manage and protect our new Park. Ignore what the objections of Mr. Rex Maughan who has a net worth of more than 600 million dollars. None of us asked for this tragedy to occur near his precious ranch consisting of hundreds of thousands of acres of land that will not be affected by you doing the right thing.

      The following are some excerpts from the email I received from you on October 1, 2015.

      You said, “The purpose of my legislation two years ago was to preserve the site where our men perished and prevent development of a home, water tower, etc. at that site.”

      And I say, “I don’t want to develop the site, build a home or even a water tower out there. I want to visit the deployment site to pay my respects to the Granite Mountain Hotshots. In addition to the fact that I should be able to visit any publicly funded state park firefighters, the extended family members of the Granite Mountain Hotshots and all of their guest can any time I want to under normal operating hours.”

      You said, “The land was purchased from general fund dollars and the monies went to the State Land Trust Fund which pay for our schools. (one bucket to another so to speak).”

      And I say, “Your statement implies that since the park land was purchased with general fund dollars and the monies went to the Land Trust Fund which pay for our schools. (one bucket to another so to speak) that somehow public money was not spent to purchase the land or that even though public money was used to purchase the land, it really doesn’t count as an expenditure since it went from one state government agency to another. This is flawed logic and should not be used by those who are managing taxpayer money. General fund dollars are still tax dollars right? Those aren’t dollars the state got from the “Widows” are they…to create a private memorial site? ”

      You said, “The board to decide what to do with the purchased land was appointed by the Speaker of the House and the President of the Senate.”

      And I say, “This statement implies this matter is out of your hands and in fact was never in your hands since others are responsible for appointing the Board. Do you think that I or anyone else will ever believe that? That falls into the category of “how stupid do you think I am?” Wait…don’t answer that. I will answer it for you, I am not that stupid. You have been controlling everything from day one and your fingerprints are all over everything that has happened pertaining to the Board and the Park.”

      You said, “There are no tax monies involved with any improvements to the site and will only be accomplished through private donations.”

      And I say, “Donations to pay for improvements are still coming from the public…right? Do the people know that most of them will not even be allowed to visit the STATE PARK, except from afar and not be able to get anywhere near the deployment site? Or will these donors get exemptions to go to the deployment site just like all of the other thousands of exemptions the Board is currently planning on handing out? How much do I need to contribute to get a free pass to go to the deployment site. Has the Board assigned a specific number yet?”

      You said, “The architectural subcommittee of the board has come up with some amazing ideas for hiking path and the actual memorial site.”

      And I say, “Great. I want to see them up close just like all of the firefighters, extended family members and all of their guests are able to. And I hope to see them before they are defaced and stolen.”

      You said, “My comments and concerns are: The memorial should be constructed so people cannot trample on the “grave” sites;”

      And I say, “Your thinking is so seriously flawed on this particular issue, I hardly know where to start. The deployment site is not a “grave” site. No one is buried there. The deployment site is no more of a grave site and is no more sacred that the pit where my father died or anyone else’s loved ones have died on a public highway or in or on any other public place. Get real!

      You said, “I am concerned about potential trash, bathroom use etc. at the memorial site and possible medical emergencies which might occur with no way to easily assist.”

      And I say, “What…none of the thousands of firefighters, their families, friends and other guests; the extended family members of the Granite Mountain Hotshots and their friends and other guests in addition to all of the other people who will get automatic exemptions…people like you and Arizona Governor Doug Ducey, and your friends, family and other guests are handicapped, will ever need to use a bathroom, or have the potential to have a medical emergency? Once again…you and YOUR Board need to get real!

      You said, “Lastly, Yavapai County has graciously agreed to provide maintenance so I would like to make sure it is as maintenance free as possible to avoid spending excessive tax dollars.”

      And I say, “Yavapai County maintenance money is still public money whichever pot it comes out of. The small special interest group of very greedy and very selfish people who want a private memorial site paid for with public money will NOT be paying for the maintenance of their special place…right?”

      P.S., I am aware of the latest report from the Prescott Courier that a Conceptual Design has been approved that will allow the public to go to the deployment site but that does not change the much of the focus of my email and I will wait until these plans are formalized before I make any plans to go to the site since the latest word I got from the Yarnell Fire Chief of all people is that I was not allowed to go there even though thousands of people are currently allowed to go there under the current arbitrary and capricious rules the Board has established. Even if the public is allowed to eventually go to the deployment site, you and the Board still should can still learn a great deal from my email.

      Your welcome, Gary

      Reply

      • As I am reading Gary’s comments about Rex Maughan’s ranch property near the tragedy I am wondering if air attack was utilized on June 30,21013 to protect his property instead of moving to Yarnell to protect homeowners and citizens there during the afternoon hour when the fire made a run on Yarnell.

        Reply

    • The following is not completed: more to be said and I am having to copy past since what I write is deleted after so many paragraphs. I will try again and here is the paste:You are correct Gary Olsen. I wish your comments were posted on National News for all to see and understand what is going on. If people started hearing these things then we would be assured the actions being taken to benefit a select few would be nipped in the bud. Certainly those men were working for the National interests. The mistakes they made need to be understood by all and not covered up. They will still be National heroes in spite of their lack of intelligent methods on how to fight wild fires. But the site must be open to all and ideally will be made into a training ground on how not to fight wild fires and how to stay alive if you do want to be a wild land fire fighter. Many lives can and will be saved if that happens. I think also there will be a separation of wild land fire fighting and structure firefighting. Nineteen lives lost ought to accent that statement.

      Yes indeed, Amanda Marsh ought to step out of this thing and I was witness to how her emotional impairment has skewed her thinking–that trial of Joy Collura proved that and you spelled it out in a positive manner. The facts are there.

      I have tried to get the FBI involved. Joy has an FBI clearance and carries that card and has for years. She has an impeccable record, not a person to be denied any right in any court when she strictly adheres to the laws of the land including even buying and keeping a permit to walk on state lands. I helped her hand out care packages after the Yarnell Fire and know firsthand of her concern for other people. I think nearly every person in Yarnell will attest to her good character and wiliness and heart for other people–especially those in need and she did not exclude Amanda Marsh and considered Amanda’s harsh and unfair treatment of her as part of Amanda’s grieving process. I felt it went too far as have the uninformed people that want to restrict what ought to be a National site to only a select few.

      Indeed your father was a hero and you spelled it out correctly. Uranium mining is the most dangerous form of underground mining there is. I say that from experience. I likely worked in the very shaft your father died in. Just out Grants. NM is Section 30 where I worked for Kerr McGhee and I also worked for United Nuclear at Church Rock, NM and finally at Standard Oil of Ohio mines near Seboyeta, NM. All those mines are over a thousand feet in depth and usually we worked the 900 foot levels. Going to work in a Uranium mine is like going to war and I always regarded it as so. You never knew in what shape you might be coming back in–and hopefully it would not be as a stiff and many were killed in those mines. Some while I was working and some I helped rescue. Two I remember four miners had to lift huge slabs off the miners while I dragged them out from under. We sent those up in a bullet, a small body cage, up a 900 foot air drill hole to the surface. A rock blast as they were drilling pinned them down. Broken ribs and internal injuries on both but one returned to mining a year later. You see that Uranium ground can not be sounded and has to be bolted and wire meshed on every foot of ground. Even then cave ins and rock blasts were common and open ground an absolute no-no if you wanted to stay alive. Dips in the road and unventilated areas were a great danger. Radon gas is so heavy it collects in low spots and if concentrated in those areas and breathed in, it can’t be breathed out so you suffocate. Four miners died early on when two died and two ran in to drag them out and they too fell dead to the gas.

      Now we needed that Uranium and it was believed a vital element needed for bombs to keep the Commies at bay. We did not want their way of restricting freedoms to become our way of life. The government was intent on getting plenty high grade to do this. Signs that restricted hot areas due to poor ventilation would come down on swing and graveyard shifts. Mine inspectors only worked day shift and were not a problem on other shits. So if you weren’t maimed or killed you could look forward to radiation sickness or cancer. But the good country we are, those miners now who do have cancer get a consolation prize of 150 grand to help them and their families through the turmoil. . The cost of medical help is way beyond that but hopefully the miner had insurance to help–even co pay–Joy paid 48 thousand on Blue Cross co pay on a rattle snake bite she had. Yet sadly most of the miners never collect and then if you worked after 1973 that benefit does not apply. So few get it but then most never live long enough to go though the red tape getting it. See how it works, that radiation sticks to carbon for smokers and sticks to calcium in the bones. In time the cells next the radiation metastasize and po0ff goes the magic dragon–you just don’t know when. A mine cave in on August 1979 ended my career. They would not hire me back at any Uranium mine due to injuries I had incurred–eventhough I tried more than once to get back on. Maybe miners or like soldiers — they want to go back to what they care to do.

      So we know so many have died in the service of their country. It is nice to have plaques and names on walls in their honor. But to restrict those plaques and walls on public property to a select few is like allowing only a few Russians to view Lenin’s body.

      As far as Karan Fan goes, she is a nice person and I bet once she views what Gary has revealed and considers that the Constitution and Bill of Rights would come before a select few and guarantee our right as citizens to visit any public site then she will do some deep thinking on the subject. If Gary’s writings and books go public then all officials in government and especially political persons will start looking to what is good for all and not just a few. To restrict that area goes against all good sense and the American public, if informed of what really is taking place here, will not be happy. Freedoms infringed like this sets a precedent we do not want.

      Reply

      • Thank you Sonny.That means a lot coming from you. You can talk the talk, because you spent a lifetime walking the walk! And of course I can’t take all of the credit for my email to Fann, I just summed up what a lot of people on this thread have said and the work they have done. This effort has truly been a community (a very small one) effort. May God Bless America and Hero’s like you Sonny!

        Reply

        • Oh…and one more thing. And I am going to try and keep this short but… I think the whole “sacred ground” bullshit can be traced back to that idiot Paxton and Willis moaning about hallowed ground and God having another purpose for those 19 men.

          Kind of a Jesus Christ being crucified on Golgatha and then being resurrected and then risen to heaven kind of…Fundamentalist Christian…thing.

          I don’t know about you, but I view that fucking pit where my father died as cursed…not sacred.

          That is how I feel about the entire Yarnell Hill Fire…it was cursed. Simply having visitors who go to pay their respects and honor the sacrifice of the Granite Mountain Interagency Hotshot Crew throwing a rock onto a pile on the deployment site is more than that Godforsaken piece of hell on earth deserves.

          Can you imagine how impressive that funeral cairn would look like after a few years? It really appeals to my Norseman blood and heritage!. What a magnificent way to honor our Granite Mountain Hotshots.

          Take the statues to town and pose them beside Bucky O’Neil on the plaza. We should honor the bravery (however misplaced) of our crew like MEN (non-gender specific)!

          P.S. Take the statue of the lookout and cut it’s fucking head off and weld it to its ass!

          Reply

  5. Part 1

    Open email (This is a draft only, comment on or email me anything you think I should add) to Arizona State Representative Karen Fann regarding the Granite Mountain Hotshot Memorial State Park Board and Granite Mountain Hotshot Memorial Park.

    Please allow me to give you an Executive Summary of the current problem with the direction the Yarnell Hill Memorial Site Board is going in just in case you don’t have time to read my entire email. I know you are a very busy representative of the people and I really get down in the weeds with some specific recommendations.

    EXECUTIVE SUMMARY

    The Arizona State Legislature ceded the authority to manage the Granite Mountain Hotshot Memorial State Park (hereafter referred to as the Park) to the Yarnell Hill Memorial Site Board (hereafter referred to as the Board). The Board is now managing this publicly owned resource in an arbitrary, capricious and selective manner based on the whims of the Board, most of whom are private citizens.

    Furthermore, future access now appears to be under the direction of one specific board member… Mrs. Amanda Beno Marsh. I believe that it is apparent that Mrs. Beno Marsh is neither qualified nor emotionally fit to be making decisions whether or not I get to visit the new state park to honor the Granite Mountain Hotshots.

    I don’t want to stand on a hill overlooking the what has come to be known as the deployment site. I want to visit the same Park that thousands of firefighters, extended families of the Granite Mountain Hotshots and all of their guests get to visit. Although I personally think the actual deployment site itself should be fenced off and no one should go walking around inside that enclosure.

    At a recent hearing Mrs. Beno Marsh make a number of disturbing statements that I believe very much call into question her fitness to have the lead in managing my access to the Park and in fact, I think these statements should disqualify her for that job. This hearing took place in the courtroom of Prescott Judge Arthur Markham on January 8, 2015, in the matter of a request for an injunction against harassment filed a week earlier by Ms. Amanda Beno-Marsh against Ms. Joy A. Collura.

    Perhaps most disturbing is the fact that Mrs. Marsh did not make the following verbatim statements extemporaneously, these statements were read from a PREPARED WRITTEN STATEMENT under oath to Judge Markham.

    “I am trying to protect the closure area and deployment site, and I am trying to put my world back together.”

    “I am a fragile widow of a national tragedy.”

    “I was married to the golden boy… and everyone seems to want a piece of him…”

    “Psychics in the closure area and in and around the deployment site trying to contact Eric and my friends… or crazy conspiracy theories.”

    “As Eric’s spouse… I should be allowed the dignity of not having to have that nonsense [psychics and mediums] around me… that she contacts me and tells me about her psychic… who calls herself “the lady of the dead”. How offensive is that?”

    “My husband DIED there.”

    “His was a scary ending… and very brutal… and it hurts me and horrifies me.”

    “It is a sacred place to me… and that is why I fight to protect the site.”

    I have included the entire transcript from this proceeding as an attachment to this email so you can read these statements in their entirety and context.

    Although psychics and mediums are probably not a very big part of your base, I think they are entitled to the same rights and privileges as every other citizen of this country…don’t you? And if I were a medium I would contact our founding fathers and ask them how they feel about this issue. What do you think they would say? And if I were a psychic, I would look into the future of anyone who violated the constitutional rights and discriminates against U.S. citizens based on whether or not they were psychics or mediums in an official capacity and I predict I would see problems ahead for those people…maybe from the ACLU or a like minded organization.

    And I do have some good news for Mrs. Beno Marsh…I do not want a piece of “the golden boy”, I just want the same access to the Park that thousands of other people have. It’s really a pretty simple request.

    I do know a little bit about personal trauma in my life. My father was killed in an underground uranium mine when he was crushed by heavy equipment and knocked down a very deep mine shaft in 1958. Given the frantic demand for large quantities of uranium this country needed at the time to produce thousands of nuclear bombs to protect us from the very real threat posed to our nation by the Soviet Union. And given the lack of safety standards to protect the men who dug the uranium from the earth, I think my father was a national hero as well…wouldn’t you agree?

    I believe my mother was entitled to her privacy as a private citizen following his death because she did not present herself as a public figure on a mission to turn the site of his death into a private memorial site using public funds. Mrs. Beno Marsh has forfeited that same right.

    Reply

    • Part 2

      The arrogance of the Board is astonishing and is only surpassed by their naivety. But don’t worry, I am going to give you and them much of the guidance you so desperately need…pro bono. After all, you and so many others paid for all of my training and experience and I deeply appreciate your efforts. So, consider this is a small return on your investment and not an application for a consulting position…you can’t afford me.

      Most of this post is part of my on-line resume building to back up my opinions with my work history. If you already believe that I am a Subject Matter Expert (SME) in any area I claim to be…please skip most of this because it will bore you.

      I want to get out in front of this subject because I guarantee you that monitoring and protecting the GMH Memorial State Park is going to be a nightmare and a black hole for man hours. When I was working for the BLM (Washington Office) as a Supervisory Criminal Investigator (Sr. Special Agent) I worked out of the BLM Arizona State Office in Phoenix, for two different periods from 1992-1997 and 2003-2006. During my first years (5 that seemed like 50) there, there was a BLM Special Agent assigned full time to dealing with hazardous waste dumping on BLM lands in Arizona, which comprises some 15 million acres.

      BUT…most of the dumping occurred around the Phoenix Metropolitan area because that is where the people are and there is a lot of BLM land around Phoenix. So the biggest problem associated with hazardous waste dumping were the bad guys who would strip thousands of dollars worth of copper wire from commercial buildings and in the process do hundreds of thousands of dollars worth of damage to the facilities that they would then sell to metal scrap yards.

      A few years ago while living in northern Arizona I saw news programs where this was still occurring in the Valley Of The Sun and the news stories were specific to copper wire being torn out of area lighting at city parks. It is almost impossible to believe that there are those people out there who are willing to work that hard, and do that much damage, for so little in return. But they are out there.

      The problem for the BLM came when these same individuals would take the insulated copper wire out to the desert surrounding Phoenix, make a big pile out of it, pour accelerants on it and burn all of the insulation and other material off the copper wire itself. Pretty stupid…right?

      They would then take the copper wire to one of the recycling centers and sell it for a few pennies a pound leaving behind a hazardous waste site that needed to be cleaned up according to EPA standards. The problem was so bad and so destructive that the Phoenix Police Department hosted an interagency task force just to deal with this problem, to which the BLM Special Agent who specialized in investigating hazardous waste cases was assigned as a member.

      While I was the Forest (Chief) Law Enforcement Officer on the Santa Fe National Forest (which comprises approximately 3 million acres of land in New Mexico), part of my job with a few other officers was to do my best to put a band aid on the equivalent of a sucking chest wound to try and stem the illegal use of National Forest Land.

      This illegal use included the wholesale and commercial removal of forest products which included but was not limited to the following illegal activities, logging, cutting down trees for fire wood, vigas & latillas for Spanish style buildings and Christmas Trees, removal of boulders to be used for landscaping and commercial building, marijuana grows, methamphetamine manufacturing and clandestine runways for drug smuggling and tens of thousands of known archeological sites that were periodically looted for artifacts and just about anything else you can think of to make money either from forest products or by using National Forest Land.

      To try and get a handle on problems like these, I got heavily involved very early in my law enforcement career in the remote sensing and monitoring of areas by heavily using electronic monitoring equipment. This was due to limited manpower and budgets the size and the remoteness of the area I was responsible. My experience included ground breaking work very early because of my personal interest in, and fascination of…gadgets.

      My experience included extensive work with the Spartan, Qualtron, and Teleonics corporations just to name some of the major players in the industry where I received training in how to use their equipment at their factories. I was also heavily involved with the Sandia National Laboratories on the Kirkland Air Force Base in Albuquerque because they were taking the lead in a “swords to plowshares” program. This program used their scientists to develop commercial application for gadgets. This technology was then given to private industry to mass produce for profit. My experience using this type of technology continued throughout my drug interdiction work and other investigations for the remainder of my career.

      Two years after I retired, the military and a federal agency hosted a national interagency summit to discuss the status and the way forward for the use of remote sensing and monitoring near Washington D.C., in Shepherdstown, West Virginia. I was asked to attend this summit as a nationally recognized SME and to represent my former agency. My expenses were paid by the sponsoring agency.

      To make a long story short…I am an expert in the acquisition, application and deployment of remote site electronic monitoring systems. I also know how crazy people out there are and the lengths they will go to and the things they will do to acquire scrap metal defies all logic. And that is not even considering the fact that these metal statues that are being proposed may actually be worth something as art, although finding a buyer will be problematic but not an insurmountable challenge for the people I am talking about. They will steal it just because they can and for no other conceivable purpose.

      The monitoring of remote sites using electronic equipment can work under some very specific conditions and with a lot of luck. Sometimes the luck comes simply because in the process of maintaining the sensor network, law enforcement is more focused on the area and may randomly catch somebody in the act of vandalism. And based on my experience, the real value of sensors and cameras comes after somebody is caught by suing them. Then the word gets out the entire area is bugged by the government and is being monitored by satellites to people who are used to watching fantastical things on movies and TV. Therefore, by catching one bad guy you will stop a thousand from even thinking about trying the same thing. Here are the conditions under which a sensor and camera monitoring network can work;

      1. Acquire the right equipment from a major manufacturer. It won’t be cheap, but it will be far less expensive than buying similar equipment from a start up that won’t still be in business when you need replacement parts, maintenance, or to add on your current network. I think given the location etc., that company will be Telonics in Mesa, Arizona, but it will probably require somebody to do some creative sole source purchasing.

      2. Field a highly trained team to professionally install and then maintain the right equipment. This needs to be done covertly during off hours. The right equipment needs to be constantly maintained because weather can expose it or animals can dig it up…and then it will be stolen. I know, that has happened to me more than once. The batteries also have a shorter life than the installers will like, especially after the equipment starts recording a lot of false positives.

      3. The right equipment needs to be constantly monitored…24/7, every day of the year.

      4. There needs to be a response team to check positive hits. And given the size of the area and the variety of access points, there will probably need to be more than one response team to adequately cover the area. Everyone participating in the installation, monitoring or response to this equipment needs to be prepared to deal with a lot of false positive hits, no matter how good your equipment is, or how professionally it is installed…a lot of false hits are inevitable.

      Hey…all I can say is that I had a relatively long career, especially under the circumstances and I have always had to deal with Adult Attention Deficit Disorder, I hated to be in an office, and I liked to get involved in a lot of things. In other words…I always went out looking for trouble, and sometimes I found it.

      Reply

      • Part 3

        Your Board lacks two very important and key components. The first is one is a senior Park Ranger who has been on the job for a long time to tell you I am right. And the second is a representative from the Yavapai County Sherriff’s Office to tell you everything they can’t afford to do for you because they lack both the manpower and the budget to provide a private security force for the Park. And if the Board is already consulting with senior rangers, they need to start listening to them.

        I really do think however, that the Board needs to scale back on their unrealistic and grandiose plans, “harden” the targets of opportunity they do keep, or move their entire project to the plaza around the Yavapai Courthouse in downtown Prescott or out to Station 7 so the investment everybody else is going to make in their personal pet project can be protected and managed. Several people on Investigative Media have discussed making a simple monument out at the site that I really like. Ask visitors to add a rock to a pile in memory of the Granite Mountain Hotshots out of their respect for them and their sacrifice. Move the statues and interpretive plaques to town so you can maintain and protect them.

        Have you ever been to any kind of interpretive park that has displays in unattended locations that haven’t been vandalized? I haven’t. And I have been to a lot of them and none of them were anywhere near as remote and isolated as the Park is going to be.

        There are only two kinds of displays in these parks, those that been vandalized and those that will be vandalized. I don’t know why there are so many very stupid and very bad people out there who do very stupid and very bad things, but there are.

        These people didn’t respect OUR GMIHC when they were alive, they sure as hell don’t respect their memory. They can’t…they don’t even respect themselves.

        The Board has always been confused by what one of their real problems is and it isn’t the people like me who care, their problem is that precious few other people do care. Don’t look now, but the tragedy that befell the GMIHC is already a footnote in history. The world has moved on. And to a great extent, the wildland firefighting community has moved on. They have already had new disasters and there are more on the way! The Yarnell Hill Fire is yesterday’s news.

        And speaking of what one of the Board’s very real problem’s is, it is not people who wanting to go to the site, their problem is that very few people WILL go to the site after the newness wears off. The Board’s best day will be the day of the Parks dedication and it will be all downhill from there. Another one of their very real problems is not the good citizens your law will turn away from the Park and discourage from even making the steep and very long trek through some God forsaken country.

        The good people will obey your signs and either not go up there or turn around at the top when you tell them to. The real problem is the bad people who will pause at your signs only long enough to deface them…if they don’t just tear them down. The Boards planned very expensive and beautiful statues will be defaced and vandalized, it’s only a question of when if not stolen outright. What are they thinking? They are setting themselves up for another very expensive heartbreak.

        So…here is what they need to do, encourage as many good people as possible to go down to the deployment site. They want good people there as often as they can get them there. They can call them “site stewards” or “site monitors”, but whatever they call them, they need as many of them as they can get there to keep an eye on things and report to the authorities any bad things they have see just as quickly as they can, so corrective and enforcement action can be taken as quickly as possible.

        Although I might be wrong about ANYONE turning away regardless of what the signs say. Maybe they already got the answer they needed from Board member Darrell Willis. Mr. Willis stated there will be no way to keep people out of the area who want to go and pay their respects to the fallen… people will still go and there will still have be a problem. What comes next to satisfy the Widows need to have a private memorial site at taxpayer expense. Armed guards 24/7?

        So maybe you should do the hard job people elected you to do for the people, we are after all, a representative democracy, and you are the representative for all of the people, not just the area ranchers. Take steps to take the land needed to create a manageable Park through Imminent Domain.

        I remember when the State Route 51 (SR 51), also known as the Piestewa Freeway was called the little road that goes up through Dreamy Draw. If you followed that little road, it took you to a relatively isolated and sleepy part of the Valley of the Sun called Paradise Valley (Phoenix). I was also living in Paradise Valley and working at Central and Van Buren in downtown Phoenix at the time.

        Then the politicians who get paid to represent ALL of the people made some really hard decisions that tore apart the lives of tens of thousands of residents of that area. They took the land needed to build the Piestewa Freeway from the people who owned it, some of them had owned it and lived there for decades through Eminent Domain because that was the best thing to do for the majority of people and for the future growth of the Phoenix metropolitan area and Arizona in general.

        I think you should do the same thing to provide for greater access by vehicle to the deployment site. And as a side benefit for the state, it will give the state parks department a fighting chance to manage and protect our new Park. Ignore what the objections of Mr. Rex Maughan who has a net worth of more than 600 million dollars. None of us asked for this tragedy to occur near his precious ranch consisting of hundreds of thousands of acres of land that will not be affected by you doing the right thing.

        The following are some excerpts from the email I received from you on October 1, 2015.

        You said, “The purpose of my legislation two years ago was to preserve the site where our men perished and prevent development of a home, water tower, etc. at that site.”

        And I say, “I don’t want to develop the site, build a home or even a water tower out there. I want to visit the deployment site to pay my respects to the Granite Mountain Hotshots. In addition to the fact that I should be able to visit any publicly funded state park firefighters, the extended family members of the Granite Mountain Hotshots and all of their guest can any time I want to under normal operating hours.”

        You said, “The land was purchased from general fund dollars and the monies went to the State Land Trust Fund which pay for our schools. (one bucket to another so to speak).”

        And I say, “Your statement implies that since the park land was purchased with general fund dollars and the monies went to the Land Trust Fund which pay for our schools. (one bucket to another so to speak) that somehow public money was not spent to purchase the land or that even though public money was used to purchase the land, it really doesn’t count as an expenditure since it went from one state government agency to another. This is flawed logic and should not be used by those who are managing taxpayer money. General fund dollars are still tax dollars right? Those aren’t dollars the state got from the “Widows” are they…to create a private memorial site? ”

        You said, “The board to decide what to do with the purchased land was appointed by the Speaker of the House and the President of the Senate.”

        And I say, “This statement implies this matter is out of your hands and in fact was never in your hands since others are responsible for appointing the Board. Do you think that I or anyone else will ever believe that? That falls into the category of “how stupid do you think I am?” Wait…don’t answer that. I will answer it for you, I am not that stupid. You have been controlling everything from day one and your fingerprints are all over everything that has happened pertaining to the Board and the Park.”

        You said, “There are no tax monies involved with any improvements to the site and will only be accomplished through private donations.”

        And I say, “Donations to pay for improvements are still coming from the public…right? Do the people know that most of them will not even be allowed to visit the STATE PARK, except from afar and not be able to get anywhere near the deployment site? Or will these donors get exemptions to go to the deployment site just like all of the other thousands of exemptions the Board is currently planning on handing out? How much do I need to contribute to get a free pass to go to the deployment site. Has the Board assigned a specific number yet?”

        You said, “The architectural subcommittee of the board has come up with some amazing ideas for hiking path and the actual memorial site.”

        And I say, “Great. I want to see them up close just like all of the firefighters, extended family members and all of their guests are able to. And I hope to see them before they are defaced and stolen.”

        You said, “My comments and concerns are: The memorial should be constructed so people cannot trample on the “grave” sites;”

        And I say, “Your thinking is so seriously flawed I hardly know where to start. The deployment site is not a “grave” site. No one is buried there. The deployment site is no more of a grave site and is no more sacred that the pit where my father died or anyone else’s loved ones have died on a public highway or any other public place. Get real!

        You said, “I am concerned about potential trash, bathroom use etc. at the memorial site and possible medical emergencies which might occur with no way to easily assist.”

        And I say, “What…none of the thousands of firefighters, their families, friends and other guests; the extended family members of the Granite Mountain Hotshots and their friends and other guests in addition to all of the other people who will gave automatic exemptions…people like you and Arizona Governor Doug Ducey, and your friends, family and other guests are handicapped, will ever need to use a bathroom, or have the potential to have a medical emergency? Once again…you and YOUR Board need to get real!

        You said, “Lastly, Yavapai County has graciously agreed to provide maintenance so I would like to make sure it is as maintenance free as possible to avoid spending excessive tax dollars.”

        And I say, “Yavapai County maintenance money is still public money whichever pot it comes out of. The small special interest group of very greedy and very selfish people who want a private memorial site paid for with public will NOT be paying for the maintenance of their special place…right?”

        Reply

        • P.S. Don’t worry about all of the typos and grammatical mistakes, I will catch most of them over the next couple of days. Let’s focus on the big picture.

          Reply

          • Reply to Gary Olson post on October 25, 2015 at 6:56 pm

            >> Gary Olson said…
            >>
            >> P.S. Don’t worry about all of the typos and grammatical
            >> mistakes, I will catch most of them over the next couple
            >> of days. Let’s focus on the big picture.

            The ‘big picture’ ( regardless of the known shenanigans that have been taking place ) is still “Will any member of the PUBLIC be allowed to get anywhere near the actual ‘deployment site’ at this PUBLIC park?”

            Well… 14 hours ago… we got a ‘glimpse’ of the ‘answer’ ( but still not the full story ).

            The ‘Yarnell Hill Memorial Site Board” held its last meeting just about 48 hours ago on Friday afternoon, October 23, 2015.

            THIS time… at least one person from the media attended and we now DO have a ‘report’ ( sorta / kinda ) of what went on at this last meeting.

            Apparently… Amanda Marsh DID complete her ‘unsupervised’ informal ‘polling’ of the ‘family members’ which was meant to be the big determining factor with regards to ‘public access to the park’ and what that was/will ultimately ‘look like’.

            And it DOES appear that some level of sanity has ‘ruled the day’.

            Amanda Marsh (apparently) reported that ( of course ) SOME of the family members wanted full-blown FENCING ( with razor wire? ) and a LOCKED GATE around the deployment site… and that at least ONE of the ‘families’ ( Zuppiger ) would have preferred if nothing at all was done to the site ( no crosses, nothing ).

            But ( also apparently ) it seems obvious now that MOST of the family members realize that the PUBLIC has every right to get as close to the deployment site as they have always been allowed to get… but as the article below proves… there are still some ‘games’ being played here with the ‘design’.

            The article that just appeared 14 hours ago explains what happened… but there are still no detailed minutes from either this latest meeting OR from the LAST one ( which was the one where Amanda Marsh was supposed to have presented her ‘informal polling’ results ).

            It looks like the public WILL be allowed to get ‘near’ the actual deployment site… but the actual MARBLE crosses ( yes… we’ve gone from simple wooden crosses to actual cemetery-like MARBLE crosses ) will be ‘protected’ by 19 small retaining walls made of JAGGED ROCK and ( possibly ) connected by access-preventing CHAINS or landscaping.

            At the top of the following article about last Friday’s meeting is an actual photo of the architect showing everyone what these ’19 walls of JAGGED ROCK’ are going to look like… and how they will be surrounding the actual 19 MARBLE CROSSES and meant to discourage/prevent access to the actual crosses.

            The Prescott Daily Courier
            Article Title: ‘Conceptual’ design OK’d for Hotshot memorial
            Published: 10/25/2015 6:02:00 AM by Scott Orr
            http://dcourier.com/main.asp?SectionID=1&SubSectionID=1086&ArticleID=151189

            From the article…
            ——————————————————————
            Photo Caption: Architect Bill Gauslow describes the memorial he designed for the 19 Granite Mountain Hotshots.

            PRESCOTT – The Yarnell Hill Memorial Site Board on Friday, Oct. 23, approved what it called a “conceptual” design for a monument to the 19 fallen Granite Mountain Hotshots.

            The Hotshots were killed on state trust lands just west of Yarnell while battling the Yarnell Hill wildfire on June 30, 2013.

            Since the State Parks Department won its bid to buy the land for a memorial park in June, there have been discussions among many concerned parties, including the families of all 19 firefighters, about how they should be honored at the site where they died.

            Friday, architect Bill Gauslow presented his design to the board. It consists of 19 white marble crosses, each placed where a man fell, surrounded by 19 low walls, spaced a short distance apart, and built of rip-rap rock.

            The wall-or any means of restricting access to the crosses-has been the most contentious part of the plan.

            Gauslow said some families would have preferred a fence with a locked gate, but he wasn’t happy with that idea, calling it “a little crude.”

            “We think of this as the best solution, because it is the most intimate,” he said, noting that the jagged nature of rip-rap would likely keep most people out.

            “It acts as a way of telling the people, ‘Well, you can see the names, but why go in there?'” he said, calling it a “subliminal” tactic.

            A chain might be placed between the wall segments, or desert vegetation could be used, Yarnell Fire Chief Ben Palm said.

            Amanda Marsh, widow of crew leader Eric Marsh, said Gauslow had done an “awesome” job of educating the families about his plans.

            Marsh noted that one family, the survivors of firefighter Garret Zuppiger, would have preferred that nothing at all was built at the site.

            But, as several board members said, there was consensus among the families that this plan would be the most appropriate.

            Other elements will include interpretive materials at the parking lot, which will be important, because, as State Forester Jeff Whitney pointed out, “a fairly high percentage of visitors” will likely not go any further than that.

            There will be markers every tenth of a mile along the 1.9-mile trail that leads from the lot to an overlook of the memorial site, and each marker will feature one of the firefighters.

            Arizona State Parks Director Sue Black said the entire project would end up costing about $2 million, most of which is expected to come from donations.
            ——————————————————————

            SUMMARY: Since we still can’t see the meeting minutes and this reporting was ‘Twitter style’ and minimal information… it’s worth pointing out that there are still a lot of ‘assumptions’ here.

            It would APPEAR that this Board is going to allow the PUBLIC to go down to the deployment site… but there is still no OFFICIAL word about that. AZ Forester Whitney seems to be saying (happily?) that the self-limiting factor will be the hike itself and that by the time people reach that spot up on the ridge where they can only say “Oh… look… honey… see those little crosses way down there? That must be where that big-bad-fire came right after those poor men and killed them”… that MOST people will be so fucking TIRED by then that they won’t even bother trying to go down to the site.

            And there is still no word if there will even be any kind of TRAIL leading ‘down there’ to help any member of the public accomplish that feat.

            It’s still all just about the ‘trail’ coming in from Highway 89 and how THAT is where there will be all these ‘informational kiosks’ and whatnot.

            So there is still a LOT that isn’t known yet about what the ACTUAL ‘public access’ to this park is going to look like.

            And something tells me that ( even though it violates Arizona Law ) we are NEVER going to see the ACTUAL ‘minutes’ of this latest meeting… nor will we ever see the minutes of the PREVIOUS meeting held on September 18, 2015.

            Reply

            • Great info, but FYI, I am going to proceed with my email to Fann under the assumption that I am not going to be allowed to go to the site since that was the last official word I head from the Yarnell Fire Chief of all people, while thousands of other people are allowed to go to the site according to the arbitrary and capricious rules established by the Board.

              Reply

              • Reply to Gary Olson post on
                October 25, 2015 at 8:55 pm

                >> Gary Olson said…
                >>
                >> Great info, but FYI, I am going to proceed with
                >> my email to Fann under the assumption that
                >> I am not going to be allowed to go to the site
                >> since that was the last official word I head from
                >> the Yarnell Fire Chief of all people, while thousands
                >> of other people are allowed to go to the site
                >> according to the arbitrary and capricious rules
                >> established by the Board.

                And I think you should. ANYONE has the right to write to elected officials anytime they want… about anything they want… and to also ask hard questions. It comes with the JOB.

                There are some FACTS in your proposed email that ‘this Board’ needs to hear… especially regarding the ‘pretense’ that this is actually some kind of ‘cemetery’. The new MARBLE crosses are NOT ( in my opinion ) appropriate and are a step in the wrong direction regarding that ‘issue’ alone.

                And until you hear from this BOARD about what the REAL RULES for the ‘public’ are going to be ( which I, believe, is exactly what Chief Ben Palm told you to do in writing )… and some assurances are given that there won’t actually be claymore mines IN or IN-BETWEEN these jagged-rock retaining walls… then there could still be ‘access policies’ being put in place that they want to hide from the public until the very last minute and ‘surprise’ everyone.

                We seem to know for a fact now that SOME of the family members ( and I think we can all guess who SOME of the SOME are ) don’t give one flying fuck if anyone who has actually PAID for this public park ever gets to access the most interesting ( and historic ) parts of it.

                So until we see some sort of OFFICIAL announcement about what the ‘access rules’ will be for this PUBLIC park… those ‘family members’ ( and people actually on the Board who support their viewpoint ) might still be influencing the process in ways that shouldn’t be allowed.

                I don’t know if it’s worth pointing out in your email… but beyond the fact that this Board has always been breaking Arizona Law by NOT publishing ‘minutes’ in a timeframe established by Arizona Open Meetings Laws… the actual blurd they publish at the bottom of each of their agendas is also a total crock of shit.

                At the bottom of even the latest ‘agenda’ for the October 23 meeting is the following ‘blurb’ pointing out all the places where this Arizona PUBLIC Board was REQUIRED to also be posting the ‘meeting notice’ and the ‘agenda’…

                It (actually) says this…

                ———————————————-
                G. ADJOURNMENT

                Pursuant to Title II of the American with Disabilities Act (ADA), Yarnell Hill Memorial Site Board does not discriminate on the basis of a disability regarding admission to public meetings. Persons with a disability may request reasonable accommodation by contacting Arizona State Parks at (602) 542-4174. Requests should be made as early as possible to allow time to arrange the accommodation.

                SIGNED: Sue Black, Chairman

                ( This Agenda has been ) Posted at….

                Arizona State Parks 1300 W. Washington Street
                Phoenix, AZ and h t t p ://azstateparks.com/committees/Yarnell.html

                Arizona State Forestry Division 1110 W. Washington Street #110 Phoenix, AZ and h t t p s ://azsf.az.gov

                Arizona State Capitol 1700 W. Washington Street Phoenix, AZ and w w w.azleg.gov

                Arizona Department of Administration 100 N. 15th Ave. Phoenix, AZ and h t t p s ://doa.az.gov/meeting-notices
                ———————————————-

                Complete crock of shit.

                The ONLY place that ‘Meeting Notice’ and the accompanying AGENDA was ( or is even now ) posted was on the FIRST website mentioned… the ‘Yarnell Hill Memorial Site’ Advisory Board website at Arizona State Parks.

                There actually is a prescribed ‘remedy’ in the Arizona Public Boards and Arizona Open Meeting Laws regarding what should happen with any Arizona Public Board that continues to violate those laws.

                The ‘solution’ ( as per Arizona Law ) is for that PUBLIC Board to cease operation and be disbanded.

                Reply

                • Thank you for agreeing with me. And in other words, I just don’t have the energy or the interest to wait to and possibly re-write my entire email based on the new information.

                  Karen Fann can accept my email in the spirit it was written, or she can print it out…roll it up into a little ball…and shove it up her ass. I think the end result will be the same regardless so I don’t really give a fuck.

                  Besides, I already put my self flagellation whip away for the night and I don’t want to get it out again.

                  I don’t know how you do it, you really put some time into this project compared to me, and I put way too much of my life into it. WTF…Over?

                  Reply

                  • I just think it’s fascinating that the very guy you corresponded with, and who is the HEAD of the ‘access’ subcommittee for this PUBLIC park, appears to be the one who is STILL coming up with the ‘ideas’ for LIMITING access to places in this PUBLIC park.

                    According to the Daily Courier article… it was Chief Ben Palm himself still offering ways to ‘limit access’ even at the last meeting…

                    “A chain might be placed between the wall segments, or desert vegetation could be used, Yarnell Fire Chief Ben Palm said.”

                    I still think claymore mines would get the job done as far as Ben Palm and some of the family members are concerned… but they probably don’t actually have the money for that.

                    Reply

                    • Ya, good point, and of course I really do give a fuck but I can only blog about it.

                      I was so frustrated I have already sent my revised email to Fann, but I may send an addendum with your suggestion just for the hell of it.

                      I may even get some more suggestions.

  6. And as usual I am probably assuming everyone knows what I am talking about when I gave my opinion in response to Marti’s question below.

    “Clinging to their Guns and their God” was a statement made by President Obama to describe blue collar workers to a group of rich left wing intelligentsia at a private fund raising event in San Francisco (I think) that was secretly recorded. It was not one of his finest moments.

    I could have also have answered Marti’s question by simply saying that I think most wildland firefighters come from rural areas in the Western United States and therefore tend to be very conservative and center right republican types.

    I also should point out that I believe the republicans would not have been able to give away the candy store to the richest of the rich over the past 40 years if the fucking democrats had not helped them because they too have been in pockets of Wall Street, big banks, the filthy rich, etc.

    And as I have also repeatedly stated, I already have my piece of the pie, it’s the rest of you I am worried about. Somebody needs to fix it. Democratic Socialist Bernie Sanders for President? Now he would be a hoot representing the U.S. on the world stage!

    Reply

  7. **
    ** Grant Scott McKee ( Granite Mountain Hotshot Grant Quinn Mckee’s father )
    ** rips author Kyle Dickman a new one regarding his book “On The Burning Edge”.

    >> Reply to Gary Olson post on October 22, 2015 at 9:44 pm
    >>
    >> We have already had one book on the Yarnell Hill Fire published that I didn’t
    >> read but certified I am told as pure unadulterated bullshit. We now have a second
    >> book and probably a movie being developed with our hapless hero as the technical
    >> consultant. What do you think the odds are that book and movie will be an even
    >> bigger crock of bullshit.

    Speaking of ‘books full of bullshit’… just 48 hours ago, Grant Scott McKee, the FATHER of deceased Granite Mountain Hotshot Grant Quinn Mckee, ripped author ( and former Hotshot ) Kyle Dickman a new one regarding his book “On the Burning Edge”.

    Mr. McKee’s comments just appeared at the bottom of an article about that Kle Dickman book that appeared back in May of this year over on Bill Gabbert’s ‘Widlfire Today’ site.

    It’s even worse than I thought ( The bullshit in Dickman’s book ).

    Mr. Dickman details just SOME of the ‘bullshit’ that Dickman was slinging ( in his book ) regarding his son… who Dickman actually chose to make a CENTRAL CHARACTER in the book itself.

    The book actually BEGINS by detailing his son’s first day at work with Granite Mountain.

    But Dickman never, ever spoke to Mr. McKee. Not once. Not even to tell him he was even working on a book that would feature his son or to even verify the ‘stories’ he was going to tell about his son as if they were FACTS.

    Mr. McKee’s comments just appeared at the bottom of the following article…

    http://wildfiretoday.com/2015/05/25/errors-in-a-review-of-a-book-about-the-yarnell-hill-fire/

    And here is what Mr. McKee had to say just 48 hours ago…

    ——————————————————————————————————
    Grant Scott McKee on October 20, 2015 at 4:31 pm said:

    Well , this comment might come pretty late in the game people, but I’m the father and the uncle of 2 of the members in that crew of 19 heros.

    I’m Grant Quinn Mckee’s dad……Grant Scott McKee.

    It has taken me along time to finish the book ( at 2-3 pages a day), because it’s that painful.

    I was never contacted by Mr. Dickman . I had no knowledge he was writing such a book, and as most people can see, he used my son as the focal point in the story line. The first 2 words in the book , chapter1, is my son and my name.

    The story should have had more about ALL 20 guys in the crew, and he definitely took liberties on the events of the history of my sons life.

    My son was NEVER a latch key kid and that was quit offensive.

    Furthermore, May 18th was his birthday , so he was only 21 years old for less than 6 weeks at the time of the accident.

    Mr. Dock man stated that my son work as a busboy/ waiter before taking on the new job as a Hotshot, as well as was a bartender. My son was not yet old enough to make drinks and he knew obsolete lay nothing about being a bartender.

    That’s just a few things, as there are many more details that are not factual.

    One would think that if a person is going to write about someuone’s child, that they would take the time to ask the people who raised him. My sons life was not hard for him growing up as he portrayed it to be. He had a few moments that were difficult, but nothing out of the ordinary for most children in today’s world. He was well taken care of and loved. And he was well aware of how much he was loved. He never wanted for anything.

    Lastly …. I will add that it’s pretty much a no class move that he never even sent a copy to the families he wrote about.

    I guess that says a lot about his compassion and appreciation for making a living on this tragity and disrespecting the families by add lobbing on his facts. There is a word for that… A few words come to mind….. Cheap , selfish, and stupid.

    Dope should be more careful about what they say and write, cause once in awhile , they are the chance of offending the wrong type of people who are not so friendly under these conditions. You know what I’m sayin?

    Thanks to all that took the time to read this novel. I do apologize.
    ——————————————————————————————————

    And in the last 48 hours there have been additional comments in response to Mr. McKee…

    SIDENOTE: In addition to the expected comments from Bill Gabbert himself, Holly Neill and Pat Byrnes, a commenter using the name ‘MartyH’ also added a detailed summary of the RAWS weather data that can/should have actually prevented this tragedy if anyone had been bothering to pay any attention. I thought this might actually be a comment coming from former Granite Mountain Hotshot Superintendent ( and Safety Officer at Yarnell ) Marty Cole… ( and maybe it actually is )… but Marty Cole’s middle initial appears to be ‘C’ and not ‘H’.

    * On October 20, 2015 at 5:18 pm, Bill Gabbert said…
    Thanks for sharing your thoughts, Mr. McKee — and I am sorry for your loss.

    * On October 20, 2015 at 6:42 pm, Pat Byrnes said…
    Some still respect your son’s service and sacrifice and still hope some lessons from Yarnell will be learned and heeded. We can only hope to reduce the number of families suffering in the future. I am sorry that reckless writing hurt your family again, Mr. McKee.

    * On October 20, 2015 at 11:11 pm, Holly Neill said…
    Thank you Mr. McKee. It is good to hear your voice. I am sorry about this additional grief.

    * On October 23, 2015 at 11:37 am, MartyH said…
    I just came across this discussion today. Not knowing whether anyone else will read it doesn’t stop me from wanting to leave a couple of comments. Re: Halt/reduction in controlled burning on National Forest lands. The budget reductions to the USDA Forest Service each year from 1980 to 1988 were primary reasons for curtailing prescribed fire work. I left the fuels management position (GS-462) on the LPF SBRD and went to work as a dispatcher in 1980. Re Yarnell fire behavior and weather: The RAWS data for the nearest station to the Yarnell was available for anyone to view online on the day of the fatalities and afterward. The RAWS date for the prior days was also posted online. I hope that that data has been reviewed by everyone who writes about the incident. Four WX parameters stand out; Wind speed, wind direction, temperature and solar radiation. The changes in those four changed in the same pattern each of the two days before and on the day of the fatality incident. I didn’t copy and save the charts but they were so significant I remember them very well.

    Each afternoon at roughly the same time each day the wind shifted almost 180 degrees and increased in speed. Shortly after that the solar radiation measured by the RAWS dropped abruptly. It seems very likely to me that the RAWS was located where the smoke column from the fire shifted in the afternoon to obscure the panel – causing the reduction in solar radiation recorded by the instruments. Given two previous days of shifts in rate of spread and direction of fire spread at the same period of the afternoon every firefighter should have been aware of the dangers on the day of the fatalities. I’m terrifically saddened by the tragic loss of firefighters lives – especially in a situation that I feel was so completely unnecessary and preventable.

    Reply

    • Thanks for reminding us that the GMHS crew and the Yarnell fire bosses would have known the dangerous weather conditions and their afternoon change of direction the previous two days before. The pattern was there so it leaves unanswered questions concerning why they would attempt a suicide mission by dropping off into that brush.

      A couple things I ought to mention here–When I saw the raging fire I was adamant to leave the area and head to the west side of the mountains for safety reasons. Joy being the hard head she was intended to take an alternative route that would have cost her life. The route she wanted to take would have been on the south rim of that basin and she believed she would have had time to beat the fire advance if it changed–I think instead she was of a mind that it would not change. I left her there and topped the ridge and at that time already felt the wind change albeit a light breeze. It was something you could not feel down lower where she was but I realized I better go back and drag her out of there. That afterall turned out to be the same place on the two track the GMHS descended. Joy had her boots off enjoying the fireworks and resting. It was apparent that she did not recognize the danger she was in. Should that wind change pick up in velocity it would come up that canyon and even running uphill on the two track trail one would likely not succeed in escaping. PVC pipe that was standing in a support of rock in he middle of that unused two track actually melted down and that pink ribbon I found near the center of the two track looked like a meteorite and in fact that is what entered my mind when I picked it up. I could only identify it after it partially crumbled and exposed the interior pink color. Being on it would have been like being next the grader where Donut thought to deploy–the grader itself had its floor plate turned blue and the tires burned off, yet there was more clearing there than the two track. Fortunately for us we did have an earlier start than the GMHS and I could see the way that fire was eating and its dangerous proximity to where we were. I am glad that my insistence that Joy get herself together and move out with me worked. When later Dr. Ted Putnam explained how difficult it was to convince a couple young firefighters from taking orders from radio transmissions to go down into an area that would have killed them I understood how easily people not acquainted with how weather and uphill fire advances can cause a fire to quickly over take people.

      A second thing that I had experienced earlier and why Joy and I argued very near where the men died. Early that morning we were there and the shortest route was straight up to the two track. I wanted to get out of that manzanita patch as quickly as possible. At that time the fire was still high on the mountain in the boulders and about two miles from us working slowly down the mountain hindered by the rocky terrain and much sparser vegetation. I allowed that one mainly to teach Joy a lesson. Considering that we had left Oak Park #15 at 3:30 am, it took until 8;;:30am to break out at the track coming from Sesame Street that continued up to the two track. The route Joy chose and I followed continued around the north end of the ridge that makes up the basin. I figure it took us at least three and one half hours to go from just above Helms and through that brush to where we argued and went Joy’s way. Now the actual distance is not more than a mile and a half the way I estimate it. One walking should be able to go at a rate of 3mph, yet we were going at the rate of one mile in three hours. That gives you an estimate of how conditions were in that lower valley brush and something that every young fireman ought to experience before attempting to outrun a fire in that situation. One reason I strongly feel that should be a training field for young firemen –that would be a true memorial in honor of those by learning from and seeing the mistakes they made right on the site. It would be certain to save lives and give respect to safety rules if men were taught in that manner.

      Yes there is lots of bullshit from these early writings. I do hope men of knowledge and experience write and get published on this fire. I am strongly interested in what people of the wisdom of Gary Olsen, Bob Powers, Dr. Ted Putnam and the likes would write. They are on top of this and not influenced by the sentimental mentality nor political and job pressures held over them by superiors. They have no superiors and walk on their own merits. These are the ones who will educate and save future firefighters from disaster, and the ones we ought to recognize for their frank and honest expertise.

      Reply

      • You learn so many things here on IM…yet when I want to learn jargon or fire terminology I have always appreciated going as well to Bill Gabbert’s website or Dr Ted Putnam or Moses and the Neil family since the fire.

        MY REPLY BELOW IN CAPS
        “Sonny says
        OCTOBER 24, 2015 AT 8:06 AM
        Joy being the hard head she was intended to take an alternative route that would have cost her life.” PLEASE WORLD FACTOR IN THAT THERE IS NEWS FOOTAGE THAT HAS PAUL SILVIA’S HOME ON FIRE AND THE TIMING TO THAT CAN HELP DETERMINE IF SONNY IS SPOT ON BUT YOU SEE THIS IS THE KIND OF THING I TOO HAVE BEEN GUILTY ON HERE SPEAKING ON PERCEPTIONS AND EMOTIONS AND FRUSTRATIONS AND SPEAKING TOO FAST AND PREMATURELY ON TOPICS VERSUS THOROUGHLY AND CAREFULLY LOOKING INTO IT BEFORE POSTING IT OR A HUGE ERROR ON MY PART IS I COULD OF WENT TO PERSON DIRECT BEFORE AIRING IT PUBLIC AND THAT I OWE A HUGE THANK YOU TO A FEMALE MEDIA PERSON FOR MAKING ME AWARE WHEN I ASKED ADVICE WHAT WAS BEST TO DO AND THE REPLY WAS BE DIRECT—IT WAS NOT UNTIL THAT MOMENT I REALIZED THAT IS USUALLY HOW I USE TO BE BUT NOT ALWAYS IN THE AFTERMATH OF THE YHF AND FOR THAT I AM VERY SORRY. I LOOK BACK AND I FEEL VERY BAD BY MY ACTIONS TOO. IT CAUSED HARM. IN THE FUTURE I WILL NOT POST UNLESS I CAN SEE HOW IT CAN HELP REACH CLARITY IN THE YHF. I WON’T EVEN POST I HAVE CRUCIAL INFORMATION UNLESS I CAN SHARE THE INFORMATION IN FULL COMPLETION. JOHN DOUGHERTY DOES HAVE THE LOCATION BUT NOT FULL NAME OF PERSON IN QUESTION. I WILL NOT SAY ANYTHING UNLESS IT IS “POSITIVE AND UPLIFTING” AND CAN NOT CAUSE ANYONE HARM OR DOUBTS…I JUST GET FRUSTRATED WHEN I GET FED BITS AND PIECES BUT FOR NOW I DO NOT WANT EVEN BITS AND PIECES—YOU NEED A PERSON TO RUN THINGS ACROSS—FINE BUT I WILL NOT EVEN MENTION YOUR NAME UNTIL WE COME TO THE CONCLUSION YOU ARE SET TO COME FORWARD. IT IS OBVIOUS THERE IS MORE INFORMATION OUT THERE BUT NOT GOING TO ENGAGE IN ANYMORE OF IT UNLESS WE CAN SHARE IT ALL PUBLIC. BY DOING IT I CAUSED PEOPLE TO HAVE MISJUDGMENTS AND I ALSO MISJUDGE IN THIS AND CREATED BARRIERS BASED ON LACK OF COMMUNICATION. THE PUBLIC DISPLAYS OVER TIME I DID TO HOLLY AND OTHERS WERE NOT ALWAYS APPROPRIATE AND I COULD OF CHOOSE TO STAY QUIET OR TRY HER/OTHERS DIRECT BUT I ALLOWED ME TO “FEEL” MY WAY VERSUS TRYING TO WORK THROUGH IT CREATING A BIGGER BARRIER—MY BARRIERS ARE KAPUT EVEN WITH SONNY. I JUST WANT TO PUT IT ALL BEHIND—FRESH SLATE—COME TO INVESTIGATIVE MEDIA TO SHARE NEW INFORMATION AND NO HALF ASS STUFF OR RIDDLES—I WILL WORK ON “ME” GARY OLSEN–K. BEING IN THE PUBLIC IS ALL NEW TO ME SO BEEN AN ODD TWO YEARS PLUS AND I MAKE BLUNDERS APPARENTLY. I FEEL VERY BLESSED TODAY TO HAVE AN AREA FILLED WITH LIGHT VERSUS A BURDEN.
        –
        Joy had her boots off enjoying the fireworks and resting. I DID HAVE MY BOOTS OFF AND WAS AT REST AS MY FEET SWELLED UP BUT I WAS NOT “ENJOYING” THE FIREWORKS JUST SONNY’S PERCEPTION FROM MY LACK OF EAGERNESS TO GET MOVING IN HIGH HEAT TEMP. AT 1:11PM AFTER ALL MY HIKES THAT WEEK.
        They are on top of this and not influenced by the sentimental mentality nor political and job pressures held over them by superiors. WELL COULD IT BE SONNY THEY ARE RETIRED TOO AND CAN HAVE MORE OF A PUBLIC VOICE VERSUS CURRENT ONES
        These are the ones who will educate and save future firefighters from disaster, and the ones we ought to recognize for their frank and honest expertise. THERE IS ALOT OF DIFFERENT KINDS OF FOLKS WHO CAN EDUCATE THE WORLD WITH EXPERTISE SONNY—WOOTEN AND MORRISON…MURRAY TAYLOR…JOHN MACLEAN…ALL THE CURRENT HIGHER UPS…ERIC SCHLETT…BOBBY HALTON…JENNIFER RADICS-JOHNSON…DANIEL CHACON…TRAVIS FORD…KODAS…JIM ROTH…DAVID TURBYFILL…HOLLY NEIL…ALOT…I KNOW ON THIS…WE ALL LEARN FROM OTHERS DIFFERENTLY SO JUST BECAUSE SONNY GRASPS WHAT GARY OR BOB SAYS AND NOT SAY ANOTHER…THAT IS SONNY YET I TEND TO FIND COMFORT AND EASE IN ASKING FERNANDA QUESTIONS AT TIMES—I TRUST HER ADVICE AND HER WISDOM AND SHE DELIVERS THINGS IN A WAY I GRASP IT. SHE IS A BLESSING. I DON’T ALWAYS KNOW HOW TO COMPREHEND INFORMATION I GET SO WHEN IT GETS PUBLIC IT MAY SEEM LIKE A RIDDLE AS GARY SAID YET NOT INTENTIONAL.
        YET WHY DO WE ALL COME TO I M?
        I COME TO HOPEFULLY READ NEW INFORMATION OR GIVE NEW INFORMATION AND FOUND MYSELF BE A TERRIBLE PERSON CALLING PEOPLE OUT WITHOUT DIRECTLY GOING TO THEM SO I LEARNED I CAN BE SUCH A SCHMUCK.
        I HOPE THE CORE TO I M IS SAFETY MATTERS—
        MAYBE WE CAN BECOME IN SOME SENSE AN ORGANIZED STRUCTURE LIKE ICS—
        AND I WILL MAKE MY FUTURE INVESTIGATIVE SEARCH IN RE-MAKING THE LIST OF THE AMOUNT OF DEATHS AND SONNY CAN WORK ON THE RETARDANT DEEPER…WE ALL HAVE A PART IN THIS AFTERMATH OF THE YHF…I AM JUST GOING TO MAKE MY PART FROM THIS DAY FORWARD STRONGER IN BEING UPLIFTING- LESS RIDDLES AND MORE DIRECT…IT IS ALL A LEARNING EXPERIENCE…
        I MEAN BEFORE MEETING SONNY I MADE MY PLANS FOR THE DAY FOR WHAT I WANTED EVEN IF IT WAS TO HELP OTHERS—IT WAS STILL MY DAY MY WAY—AND WHEN I WENT ON THE TRAILS WITH SONNY IT BEGAN TO BE FOREIGN TO ME AND SO THAT HAS BEEN A LEARNING JOURNEY TOO YET HE IS A GENUINE GOOD MAN.

        I READ SOMEWHERE NOT SURE WHERE ABOUT DATA ON WEATHER THOSE 3 DAYS…SOME THINGS ARE PREDICTABLE LIKE SOME PEOPLE’S PERSONALITY TRAITS BUT NOT MOTHER NATURE MIXED WITH WEATHER—NOPE. SORRY…
        I CAN GO IN PREDICTING WITH CAUTION ALL DAY LONG…YET UNTIL MORE MISSING INFORMATION COMES FORWARD I WILL NOT SUPPORT MARSH AND STEED’S PART THAT DAY BECAUSE I HAVE A STRONG SENSE SOMEWHERE IN THAT RESTRICTED AREA IS EVIDENCE NOT YET FOUND ALONG WITH ALL THE MISSING ELEMENTS TOO NOT YET SURFACED. I KNOW WHERE TO LOOK TOO…JUST NOT GONNA UNTIL PEOPLE ARE ALLOWED…MAYBE IT WILL OPEN UP NEXT SUMMER BUT IT ALWAYS FLOORED ME HOW COME SAIT NEVER HIKED WITH US AND WITH OSHA WE NEVER GOT TO FULLY SHOW THE AREA LIKE WE WANTED TO—
        OKAY I SAID ENOUGH— GOOD NIGHT!

        ;

        Reply

    • Typo in the original comment above.

      I type ‘Dickman’ instead of ‘McKee’ at the start of THIS paragraph…

      “Mr. Dickman details just SOME of the ‘bullshit’ that Dickman was slinging ( in his book ) regarding his son… who Dickman actually chose to make a CENTRAL CHARACTER in the book itself.”

      That paragraph SHOULD have read like this…

      “Mr. MCKEE details just SOME of the ‘bullshit’ that Dickman was slinging ( in his book ) regarding his son… who Dickman actually chose to make a CENTRAL CHARACTER in the book itself.”

      Reply

    • It’s late and I’m exhausted, and I just read this. Thank you WTKTT!!

      It’s pretty clear that Kyle Dickman has an agenda (some of which I agree with) and that his agenda seems to have overtaken his commitment to the truth about what happened on this fire. His disrespect to the family of his central character is truly offensive.

      I have a minutia-related question.

      You wrote:

      “Pat Byrnes, a commenter using the name ‘MartyH’”

      How do you know that to be true?

      A couple of weeks back I discovered that Pat Byrnes lives in Albuquerque.

      I’m confused by this.

      Reply

      • Reply to Marti Reed post on October 25, 2015 at 8:39 pm.

        >> Marti Reed said…
        >>
        >> It’s late and I’m exhausted, and I just read this. Thank you WTKTT!!
        >>
        >> It’s pretty clear that Kyle Dickman has an agenda (some of which
        >> I agree with) and that his agenda seems to have overtaken his
        >> commitment to the truth about what happened on this fire. His
        >> disrespect to the family of his central character is truly offensive.

        Well… that’s the ongoing story of this ‘still burning fire’, isn’t it?

        This is what happens when you have INVESTIGATORS with ‘agendas’ who don’t even know how to be professional investigators… and AUTHORS with ‘agendas’ who don’t even know how to be professional authors.

        You end up with a LOT of ‘bullshit’ flying around… and other people who are still interested in the TRUTH ( like some public forums I know of ) just trying to keep the toilet paper rolling and make sense of the ‘published’ material.

        Speaking of ‘people who know how to investigate’. ( and do it for a living )…

        Did you know that part of the SETTLEMENT agreement between Arizona Forestry and ADOSH was that NONE of the ADOSH investigation material can ever be used in a ‘court of law’ if there ends up being further litigations against Arizona Forestry RE: the Yarnell Fire?

        That’s going to be hard to enforce if push comes to shove… but it’s just one more display of the absolute arrogance of Arizona Forestry to think they could even make that a ‘requirement’ as part of a ‘settlement’..

        >> Marti also said…
        >>
        >> I have a minutia-related question.
        >>
        >> You wrote:
        >>
        >> “Pat Byrnes, a commenter using the name ‘MartyH’”
        >>
        >> How do you know that to be true?
        >>
        >> A couple of weeks back I discovered that Pat Byrnes lives in Albuquerque.
        >>
        >> I’m confused by this.

        There was a COMMA there after Pat Byrnes, and I wasn’t implying that the next named commenter ( MartyH ) WAS ‘Pat Byrnes’… but my bad. I worded that whole paragraph badly.

        I probably should have said it like this…

        ————————————————————–
        And in the last 48 hours there have been additional comments in response to Mr. McKee…

        SIDENOTE: In addition to the expected comments from Bill Gabbert himself,
        there have been THREE other ‘commenters’

        1) Holly Neill
        2) Pat Byrnes
        3) A commenter using the name ‘MartyH’

        Commenter ‘MartyH’ also added a detailed summary of the RAWS weather data that can/should have actually prevented this tragedy if anyone had been bothering to pay any attention. I thought this might actually be a comment coming from former Granite Mountain Hotshot Superintendent ( and Safety Officer at Yarnell ) Marty Cole… ( and maybe it actually is )… but Marty Cole’s middle initial appears to be ‘C’ and not ‘H’.
        ————————————————————–

        Also… I shouldn’t have hit ‘return’ and put a blank line before the last paragraph of that previous post.

        The entire last paragraph that begins with…

        “Each afternoon at roughly the same time each day the wind shifted almost 180 degrees and increased in speed…”

        …was not ME jumping back in with a comment. That entire paragraph that then goes on to talk about the RAWS weather data was still the commenter named ‘MartyH’ finishing his own comment(s) over there at Wildfire today.

        Reply

  8. One more loose thread I forgot about. Marti asked why so many wildland firefighters think President Nobama is an Obumma. Well…it is the same reason why there are so few African or Asian Americans and Metrosexuals fighting wildfire.

    Wildland firefighters come primarily (almost exclusively) from rural areas in the Western United States. You know…those areas where they cling to their Guns and their God and they don’t like having a Kenyan of the Muslim Faith who is a closet communist masquerading as a democratic socialist as the illegitimate Commander In-Chief and POTUS.

    I can legitimately use POTUS in a sentence because I rode in the Presidential Motorcade as the Departmental Representative with the presidential security detail one time. It was however, for that democratic socialist Bill Clinton who oversaw this country’s greatest period of capitalist growth in my lifetime when there was a chicken in every pot.

    In fact, I used to be one of THEM (I was even a closet Metrosexual at one time) but then I woke up one day and realized the fucking republicans had given away the candy store to the top one percent of the top one percent while gutting the middle class because those of us who clung to our Guns and our God were busy chasing after shiny things the Koch brothers fired out of their asses for chaff and not paying attention. So I am different now, although I still cling to my Guns and God, especially my Guns…and my God. Gun Nut? Yep…I r 1.

    So…does that answer your question?

    Reply

    • Yeah, I getcha. And thank you for responding to that with that.

      I’ve spent today picking my way through the Benghazi Committee videos. Such total BS. BTW, I live-blogged the Libyan Revolution on Daily Kos. I supported it until, well, it slowly and painfully devolved into, well, something else. But I was present, totally, via my extensive Middle East/North Africa Twitter list, when the attack on the compound occurred. The Benghazi Committee is not an investigation, either.

      I still hope wildland firefighters figure out how to get themselves paid what they deserve, including benefits and pensions, even though, apparently, a bunch of them seem to have bought into certain thought-bubbles enough to believe that all that socializm is terrible for everybody else but them; and i have no idea what those “hillbillies” (who think the 10 and 18 are “hillbilly”?) think about that “libtard” thingy about “humanly-created climate change” even as they fight the fires that the 21st century is throwing at them.

      And, I have to admit, I have read wildland firefighter’s pages on facebook that narrate a totally opposite understanding of what is going on. I acknowledge that it’s a complex bunch, as aren’t we all.

      And Mike Malloy is right now talking about Stone Mountain. Exponential irony.

      OK I am brain-dead, and I haven’t even responded to what you wrote downstream.

      Namaste.

      Reply

      • So, regarding the Yarnell Hill Fire, here’s my current issue. And this relates to your questions about that photo that was under discussion, at least tangentially.

        There are two trucks related (via their decals) to the Arizona Central West Zone Incident Management Team parked near the Ranch House Restaurant parking lot that I don’t know who are associated with.

        That means there are two people associated with those trucks (and, therefore the Arizona Central West Zone Incident Management Team) who were in that parking lot after the deployment, that I don’t know who they were. And I don’t know why they were there.

        Does that matter?

        Namaste.

        Reply

        • Reply to Marti Reed post on October 23, 2015 at 10:06 pm

          >> Marti said…
          >>
          >> there are two people associated with those trucks (and,
          >> therefore the Arizona Central West Zone Incident Management
          >> Team) who were in that parking lot after the deployment, that
          >> I don’t know who they were. And I don’t know why they were there.
          >>
          >> Does that matter?

          It certainly does.

          ADOSH had already concluded before they even finished their FIRST round of interviews that that workplace was chaotic and life-threatening… and they cited at least FOUR potential ( and actual ) entrapment situations in that workplace that afternoon because of the ‘chaos’….

          …but once they ‘pegged the meter’ on the fines they were even legally allowed to impose ( which they then DID impost on Arizona Forestry )… they lost the ability to investigate the incident fully.

          It still matters WHO all of these ‘voices’ are that were ‘talking’ directly to Eric Marsh and Jesse Steed during the time the SAIT said no one was talking directly to Eric Marsh or Jesse Steed.

          Bea Day herself was never interviewed ( along with HER OPS people Jason Clawson, Aaron Hulburd and KC ‘Bucky’ Yowell ).

          No one from the ‘already arriving’ Type 1 team was ever interviewed.

          They all SHOULD have been in order to get the FULL picture of what was really going down that afternoon.

          Reply

            • Reply to calvin post on October 24, 2015 at 6:04 am

              >> calvin asked…
              >>
              >> Does anyone have all the pictures from the ranch
              >> house organized chronologically?

              I do not ( not ALL of them… from ALL sources )… but the majority of the RHR photos that we have ( taken by Tom Story ) are, in fact, already in ‘chronological order’ as they appear in the Online Dropbox folder.

              The ‘Tom Story’ photos taken at the Ranch House Restaurant are still in this online SAIT investigation folder…

              https://www.dropbox.com/sh/02ue6bnjp6nazkm/AACUc_jX8WNPOrznsNSlYV-ea/Photos%20and%20Video/Tom%20Story%20Photos/201303_Yarnell_Hill_02?dl=0

              They start on the 21st row down from the top, with image 201303_Yarnell_Hill_1677.jpg.

              The timestamps are accurate ( and in chronlogical order )… but remember that Tom Story’s ‘Canon EOS 5D Mark II’ camera timestamp was about 1 minute BEHIND the real time that day.

              Here’s how we know that…

              The following TWO pictures captured the moment when Brian Frisby and Trueheart Brown were actually pulling out of the RHR parking lot in their Polaris Range UTV to begin their ‘ground rescue mission’…

              201303_Yarnell_Hill_1682.jpg
              EXIF Date/Time Original: 2013:06:30 17:08:18 ( 5:08:18 PM )
              EXIF Camera Make/Model: Canon EOS 5D Mark II

              201303_Yarnell_Hill_1683.jpg
              EXIF Date/Time Original: 2013:06:30 17:08:19 ( 5:08:19 PM )
              EXIF Camera Make/Model: Canon EOS 5D Mark II

              Image 1682 shows the BR Polaris Ranger ( with Frisby and Brown in it ) beginning to pull out of the RHR parking lot and take a left and head south on Highway 89.

              Image 1683 was taken just ONE second later and shows them actually doing that ( pulling out of the parking lot onto Highway 89 ).

              The Blue Ridge GPS tracking data CONFIRMS the time for this event as photographed by Tom Story… but it also appears that the time on Tom Story’s ‘Canon EOS 5D Mark II’ camera was about 1 to 2 minutes BEHIND the real time that day.

              Here is the Blue Ridge GPS tracking data that also shows when Frisby and Brown actually left the Ranch House Restaurant parking lot ( as seen in the Tom Story photos )…

              —————————————————————
              1706 – 34.213279, -112.755239 – 0000.000 – 00.00 – Stationary
              1707 – 34.213279, -112.755239 – 0000.000 – 00.00 – Stationary
              1708 – 34.213279, -112.755239 – 0000.000 – 00.00 – Stationary
              1709 – 34.213279, -112.755239 – 0000.000 – 00.00 – Stationary ( slight movement south )
              1710 – 34.216118, -112.758758 – 1839.480 – 20.90 – Heading northwest through Glen Ilah on Lakewood Drive
              1711 – 34.218611, -112.760239 – 1000.710 – 11.37 – At intersection of Westward/Lakewood and Manzanita Drive
              1712 – 34.215772, -112.758640 – 1183.450 – 13.45 – Back east on Lakewood Drive
              ———————————————————-

              Tom Story’s photo timestamps have them actually leaving the RHR parking lot at 1708 plus 18 seconds, but the GPS tracking data ( which was taking the TIME from the GPS satellites themselves ) doesn’t show that happening until about a minute later, between 1709 and 1710.

              Reply

  9. I have some good news for everyone! I have returned from my latest extended vacation to the Oregon Dunes NRA. Although frankly…it is a little hard to tell exactly when my vacations start and when they end except I don’t blog (or check my computer) while on vacation. After all…every day is a Saturday.

    I asked my dear wife to take a cool photo of me catching about three feet of air coming off a dune on my 800 pound quad like a bat out of hell, but all I ended up with was one of an old man I didn’t even recognize at first playing with some random ATV riders baby (the little stinker could even walk…sort of) he found in a playpen!

    I am posting it because I use my web sites like a Face Book page (which I don’t have) just in case anyone wants to put a face with the name or see what a broken down washed up hotshot looks like after almost 40 years. I think I look like a very sweet old man. I would hire me as a baby sitter…wouldn’t you? And because I think it is very important for everyone to know what I am doing (Hotshot versus Smokejumper video)! Your welcome.

    http://ourfiregods.com/reserved1.html

    Please forgive me…I digress. Because I do have some loose ends I need to tie up that I did think about while cruising on the dunes and some new ones have been created in my absence.

    1. Marti wrote, “Does anybody else resonate with what I have just written?”

    And I say…Well yes I do Marti, but only you and maybe a few other people care what I think about this subject, so I don’t think it makes any difference. Everybody else but us are happy with the status quo, the agencies, the wildland firefighters, the blue shirts, the public, the families…oh….and especially the families.

    “Nobody did anything wrong, the big bad fire had a mind of its own, it did not follow the laws of nature, physics or it’s predicted path, it did not do exactly what the weather forecasters predicted it would do, the GMIHC were not safe in hundreds of acres of black and they could not have simple dropped back down off the ridge and hiked to the southwest to find millions of acres of safe zone, they had to leave the black and hike down a brush choked box canyon directly in front of a raging inferno to try and reach a bomb proof safety zone that ended up being not all that bomb proof so no investigation or no new information is needed.”

    2. WTKTT said, “They should just ‘fast track’ the request and go ahead and give it to him. He may be ‘unemployable’ for the rest of his life.”

    And I say…I hate to be the person that always pisses on everybody’s parade, but they can’t do that. Temporary employees are not entitled to those kinds of benefits, that is why employers hire temporary employees, to limit their long term liabilities regarding those employees. But then again, they also can’t make temporary employees retroactively full time employees either…so maybe he can pull it off. Like I said on the thread earlier, it’s a good thing they didn’t work for Uncle Sam…there is NEVER any give when are between that rock and a hard place.

    3. WTKTT said, ” I don’t think Brendan should have ever even gone to work for them.
    He wasn’t/isn’t qualified to be a ‘counselor’ to anyone.”

    And I say…I agree, I stated that very firmly last year when the news came out that he was going to do that and I predicted that gig would not last very long. There is a short shelf life to being a professional victim and a Sad Sack.

    4. Joy has asked me to drop my inquiry into her situation with Amanda Beno Marsh because she is afraid Mrs. Beno Marsh will use anything and everything against her to get the restraining order against her renewed. And I am going to honor that request unless somebody pushes my buttons again in the meantime.

    I did however, receive MY copy of the verbatim record of the Beno Marsh vs. Collura court case that I paid for and I have completed MY analysis of that court case and I not only CAN give you some insight into what occurred that fateful day, but I WILL give spell it out for you even thought I am sure Joy would prefer that I kept my mouth (and keyboard) shut on the issue.

    First and foremost…Joy SHOULD have won that day if the case would have been decided on the evidence that was presented alone. AND I am prepared to debate that conclusion with anyone including Judge Markam any time, any place, or anywhere.

    I actually think Judge Markam is a good judge and a good man, I just think he was overwhelmed by the Beno Marsh and Pfingston carnival sideshow (Debra and Jerry were there to cheer Mrs. Beno Marsh on in the name of their God) that would have done Jerry Springer proud.

    And unfortunately for Joy, she testifies and cross examines witnesses a lot like she writes…in riddles. Mrs. Beno Marsh is even worse once you throw in the overwhelming pity party she throws for herself wherever she goes, the theatrics, the gross exaggerations (lies) and the unashamed manipulations based on her status as a Public Figure and Object Of Pity.

    Let me put it this way to you, I’m not saying that either Mrs. Beno Marsh, Darrell Willis or our hapless hero would have ever asked for their current status, but now that they have it…dumb ass fuck up and Darrell Willis aren’t the only ones who are rolling in it and making the most out of it.

    FYI, my mother was entitled to her privacy after her husband was killed on the job because she did not willingly turn herself into a Public Figure with great enthusiasm in a successful (so far) attempt to misuse public funds for a private memorial site. Once you do that…you lose your right to be respected as a private citizen, just as a have lost my right to be respected as a private citizen because of my outspoken views on this blog. We are all accountable for our own actions.

    Judge Markam probably wouldn’t have made the mistake he did under normal circumstances but he was so preoccupied with keeping some semblance of order in the three ring circus he was the ring master for after somebody let all of the wild animals out of their cages. AND Judge Markam’s second highest priority was to have the case wrapped up and finished by 5:00 p.m. come hell or high water. So no…justice was not served.

    5. WTKTT made some comments about how now Arizona State Parks has officially closed the park because they say so. As I stated earlier, there has never been any doubt that the Arizona State Parks can close any park they want to…the trick has always been, and still remains, to close it to some of the public while keeping it open and accessible to some of the public. I think they are still doing that in the shadows, which is BULLSHIT! And as of tonight, they are still running their fraud agasint the public by keeping an invalid and worthless document on their web site as though it is an official closure order, which is was once, but is no longer. What a crock of shit!

    http://www.azstateparks.com/committees/downloads/Yarnell_Land_Closing_Orders.pdf

    6. Marti and I got into a discussion down below about me saying something about how I was still trying to figure out why the GMIHC died to which Marti responded that in fact, we already (believe) we know why they died. To quote Sir Winston Churchill, I think the question of “Why” the GMIHC died is not simply a why…it is a “It is a riddle wrapped in a mystery inside an enigma.”

    So yes, we think we know the first level of “why” they died, the GMIHC/
    tried to make it to the back side of Yarnell by beating the fire front to town so they could provide the manpower to backfire the dozer line. But I believe it goes much, much deeper than that and it far more complex with other layers of “why” like an onion and is for more compel. And of course I believe these other layers of “why” are deeply rooted in the humane factors aspect of this tragedy.

    All of the other hotshot crews were burned over and killed for very easy to understand and very basic reasons. They were cutting (or improving) hand line above an uncontrolled wildfire and they exhibited far too much “can do” gung ho spirit while trying to get the job done that was dramatically counter to their own survival. Simple.

    7. Fernanda Santos said, “I hope to have you by my side as this journey continues. Because nothing is accomplished by one individual alone. As Eric Marsh and Jesse Steed used to say, we’re only as strong as our weakest link.” And I say, That certainly fits into the “ya…no shit” category. And I guess we found out in a really bad way just who the weakest link in the GMIHC chain was. Their names were Marsh and Steed. We have already had one book on the Yarnell Hill Fire published that I didn’t read but certified I am told as pure unadulterated bullshit. We now have a second book and probably a movie being developed with our hapless hero as the technical consultant. What do you think the odds are that book and movie will be an even bigger crock of bullshit.

    We have a third book currently being written that has NEILL as the technical research specialist, non-profit board member and full time apologist for Eric Marsh…what are the odds that book will be a crock of bullshit as well? And now we have Ms. Santos. She is quoting trite platitudes offered by both Marsh and Steed regarding the tensile strength of the GMIHC when they were made of very hard but apparently very brittle steel themselves. Gee…what are the odds that her book will be a crock of bullshit as well?

    So unlike Marti…I am not looking forward to Santo or the Maclean books. And now, I am hearing the HELM’S are writing a book. OMG!

    Sidenote: I can tell you there is an aspect to being a hotshot that has never been brought up on this thread that I recall and that is the area where both Marsh and Steed catastrophically failed that is just as important as being physically fit and tough…maybe it is even more important. And that is to exhibit mental toughness and strength at all times. Be able to accept and withstand the stress of doing the right thing from those who are pressuring you to do the wrong thing even though you know it will cost you a great deal…maybe everything you have worked for your entire life.

    I can talk the talk because I walked the walk when I met that ultimate test of fire and passed. I was relieved of my command while fighting the Scott Fire on the Coronado National Forest in 1983 and I was sent home for refusing to follow orders that were contrary to the good of my crew. And then my entire hotshot crew (Santa Fe) was sent home with me on a jet that has been chartered expressly for just that one purpose because they then refused to follow orders from both a sector boss and line boss after the fire boss relieved me of my command.

    Talk about stress. And no dojo, weight room, track or Mt. MF can prepare you for that challenge, it comes from deep down inside and you probably won’t even know whether you have it or not until the day you are called on to use it. Marsh and Steed were challenged to do the right thing for their crew and they failed…and then their crew died. Period…end of story.

    Finally…I am really overdue to finish writing my email to Karen Fann because I believe it will be so pointless. And I know what some of you may be thinking. I have written so many pointless comments up to this point, what is the problem now?

    Point well taken. It’s just that I am a little bit discourage with the way the BOARD is running this entire process, it makes me want to throw up my hands and just say “FUCK YOU” to the entire rotten bunch. But I keep a special whip in my closet for self-flagellation for occasions such as this and I will get it out to punish myself until I finish my response to Fann. I know their plans are cut in stone, but at this point in my life I enjoy eventually being able to say, “I told you so” more than I enjoy having people follow my advice.

    Reply

    • Oh…and one more thing. My test by fire came many years before “Turn Down Protocols” were even thought of. No USFS IHC crew boss told a Fire Boss, Line Boss and Sector Boss, “No” back in 1983! Which is why they tried their best to make an example out of me but the subsequent investigation concluded I had been right in what I did. So yes…I am qualified to throw stones at both Marsh and Steed.

      Reply

      • P.S., Funny story…The fire boss and the line boss sent the sector boss onto the bus (at almost midnight) to order the crew to disembark. The sector boss looked pretty funny falling all over himself trying to get off that bus after the entire crew started throwing spit cups, soda cans, and half eaten fruit and sandwiches at him.

        That’s what got the whole crew sent home with me. Of course I could have stopped it with a word but I had been relieved of my command so I just stood there and enjoyed the spectacle.

        “They” spend millions of dollars for each and every hotshot crew in order to build high performance machines out of them. And then they bitch when their creations perform like high performance machines at some inconvenient times…for them.

        Reply

        • Have you done any checking on the Teepee Springs Fire?
          2 HS Crews refused a assignment got into it with the IC and filed a complaint
          The IC got removed from his Team. It is over on Wildfire Today.
          What a mess. Haven’t found the Names of the TWO CREWS yet.

          Reply

          • No, I don’t know anymore about it than you just told me. Frankly…I have lost the few wildland firefighters contacts I had left because of my participation on this thread,…so I don’t even have anyone to ask, which is no big deal. I don’t really need to know much at this point in my life, I can just make stuff up as I go along.

            Reply

  10. So I’ve been really really busy with Other Stuff™ including moving and trying to follow, via Daily Kos (with all its WARTS), what”s going on politically on the national level right now, but I’ve still been READING (except my email, which I KNOW I KNOW I KNOW i need to catch up with).

    (And, to be perfectly honest, one of the things that mystifies me big-time is how is it that so many Arizona wildland fire-fighters, via their Facebook posts (including, to the total MAX Dean Steward) are such hard-core Republican “Obummah” and “Libtard” haters, except when it comes to getting their salaries increased and pensions paid for and wildland fire policies financed………….but that’s a whole nuther story…….)

    So, tonight I read down the stream to see what some of my downstream questions had generated in the way of responses, and thank you all for your responses, and then I came to a response by WTKTT that I want to post to the top, because I think it relates to some of the stuff that has been posted recently.

    And before I do that I have to say that, honestly, I have had to constantly weigh back and forth between my curiosity and conviction that what we are doing just NEEDS TO BE DONE, and my resentment that we are doing is something that somebody should be paying somebody (like us) to be doing, because this just NEEDS TO BE DONE.

    OK. So context description and rant over.

    (I’m writing this while someone is calling in on Norman Goldman’s radio show about how the wildfire was burning thru the hiway in California while the aerial fire-fighting planes were on a stand-down because of the stupid drone operators)

    What really resonated with me was this:

    WantsToKnowTheTruth said on OCTOBER 13, 2015 AT 7:35 AM, regarding why didn’t ADOSH investigate more after the SAIR turned out to be a white-wash:

    “That’s all they could do.

    It will still probably take some kind of court case ( but it will only take ONE single court case ) to ever get a lot of the people who were never even interviewed ‘into a room’ to even just get depositions… OR have them look at the existing evidence ( photos, etc. ) to see if THEY can ‘fill in the blanks’… if for no other reason than to at least make sure the historical record for this HISTORIC incident is accurate.”

    The rest of his comment is truly worth contemplating, and so it is located here:

    http://www.investigativemedia.com/yarnell-hill-fire-chapter-xvi/#comment-311673

    I really agree with he wrote, all things considered. I’m looking forward to Fernanda Santos’ book. I’m also looking forward to John McLean’s book.

    But, all things considered, given the cover-ups and GAG ORDERS and relative paucity of relevant FACTS, I don’t see how either of the above two books are going to be able to narrate what actually happened on this fire.

    Maybe, given all this mess, and all the rabbit-holes WE have had to spend our TIME wandering down into, just because there was never the actual investigation that the Arizona Governor Janet Brewer actually ORDERED published,……………….

    Is it possible that we might be better served by investing our TIME in figuring out how to envision and implement that…..

    “some kind of court case ( but it will only take ONE single court case )”

    that WTKTT wrote about in his comment?

    Just wondering, because I’m really running out of the kind of whatever it has taken to keep me (and us) doing this work (after TWO YEARS of doing it), and yet I am still committed to continuing to try to bring some kind of JUSTICE to this whole Cluster-f*ck Fire, which, ahem, IS STILL BURNING.

    Does anybody else resonate with what I have just written?

    Reply

    • And PS.

      In a kind of convoluted downstream conversation regarding the “photo under consideration,” and how that photo might possibly relate to who might have been the one asking, “waz yo status”

      Bob Powers said on OCTOBER 16, 2015 AT 7:29 AM

      “Maybe my old brain—-
But where ever the radio traffic was captured with the voice and recording it sounds like it came from a Radio Operator in Fire Camp based on the Message. I may have got confused on where it was recorded. Sorry”

      No “Sorry” required, at all. Not at all.

      In fact, that line of thinking has been a part of my saying/wondering (for a REALLY long time) this:

      Marti Reed says OCTOBER 13, 2015 AT 1:39 PM

      “Oh, and PS. Another little headache/mystery that might ‘matter’ that I’ve hinted at but never said clearly.

      I don’t think Paul Musser was driving the Incident Management Team truck. It doesn’t fit his timeline at all. But the State Fire truck in the middle of the collection, facing towards Marty Cole’s truck, does.

      And, therefore, one of my ongoing ‘unresolved issues’ has all along been, ‘Who from the Incident Management Team, besides Musser, might have been there at the RHR parking lot???’

      I thought about Byron Kimball. But he may have gotten there a bit later than 5:06 PM, which is when the first of Story’s RHR photos was taken. And he said he had to keep moving his truck.”

      If what Bob Powers is saying might be true — that SOMEBODY at the Incident Command Post was, in fact, tasked with paying attention to the radio conversations (especially since the Incident Commander wasn’t paying attention to them, via his ADOSH interview)

      ….and that possibly that person might have been the one who asked “fire waz yo status”

      ….and that SOMEBODY drove that Incident Management Team truck across the Air2Air video camera at (and ONLY AT), while heading east at about 4:28 PM, (one minute after the Gamble Video)

      …….and it got parked in front of the RHR parking lot before Tom Story’s photos started being taken, and I don’t know if it was there in the Reason Video (because I STILL haven’t had time to schlep my hard drives around the corner)

      ……..and I have NO IDEA who was driving that truck and NO IDEA who, in the Tom Story photos, the driver of that truck is, even though it is in the middle of everything, including the one that Paul Musser and Tony Sciacca and ( I think) Rance Marquez and Dan Philbin are gathered around

      Might it just might be important to figure out WHO was driving that truck?

      It might not lead to the “fire waz yo status” questioner?

      But it really bugs me that we don’t know who was driving that truck that left the ICP and crossed the camera at 4:28 PM and then parked it in what became the middle of the action at the Ranch House Restaurant parking lot.

      Reply

      • And, to be honest, I’ve been thinking about the possibility that that truck might be related to that fire-fighter in the red helmet who, as soon as Darrell Willis pulls up, is seen talking to him via his passenger window, and then keeps pacing the area, who I’m currently thinking might be Dean Steward.

        But i don’t think Dean Steward would have been that southernish cajunish to ask “waz yo status” much less preface that with either “five” or “fire.”

        The only thing that links my thinking about Dean Steward being linked to that truck is that he was on one of the Arizona Incident Management Teams. But the truck he was driving on the Doce Fire was this:

        https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10151489257408715&set=a.54829353714.68352.687098714&type=3

        So, I actually don’t think he was driving that Incident Management Team truck. But I do think he’s the guy in the red helmet.

        Reply

    • And I also feel a need to say that if Joy’s witness regarding what was happening on Norton Way, which indicates no fire-fighters doing much of any evacuating — including Gary Cordes — that could make it possible that Gary Cordes was the one who drove Cory Ball to the Yarnell Fire Department at 4:27 PM to pick up their ATV.

      Reply

      • Which would mean Paul Musser might not have anything to do with the “Hail Mary Plan.”

        There really needs to be an investigation of the Yarnell Hill Fire.

        Hello?

        Reply

    • Reply to Marti Reed post on October 20, 2015 at 6:23 pm

      >> Marti Reed said…
      >>
      >> So I’ve been really really busy with Other Stuff™ including moving and trying
      >> to follow, via Daily Kos (with all its WARTS), what”s going on politically on the
      >> national level right now, but I’ve still been READING (except my email, which
      >> I KNOW I KNOW I KNOW i need to catch up with).
      >>
      >> (And, to be perfectly honest, one of the things that mystifies me big-time is
      >> how is it that so many Arizona wildland fire-fighters, via their Facebook
      >> posts (including, to the total MAX Dean Steward) are such hard-core
      >> Republican “Obummah” and “Libtard” haters, except when it comes to getting
      >> their salaries increased and pensions paid for and wildland fire policies
      >> financed………….but that’s a whole nuther story…….)

      Yes, it is ( but your observations are spot on ). Dean Steward, himself, is his own brand of ‘crazy town’. Long-time engine-mate and VERY close friend of OPS1 Todd Abel’s… as per Steward’s own PUBLIC Facebook page… he actually makes CANNONS that he attaches to UTV’s and test-fires them on his ranch. We are talking actual home-grown ARTILLERY.

      I kid you not ( See his PUBLIC ‘Facebook’ photo albums ).

      >> Marti also said…
      >>
      >> So, tonight I read down the stream to see what some of my downstream
      >> questions had generated in the way of responses, and thank you all for your
      >> responses, and then I came to a response by WTKTT that I want to post to
      >> the top, because I think it relates to some of the stuff that has been posted
      >> recently.
      >>
      >> What really resonated with me was this:
      >>
      >> WantsToKnowTheTruth said on OCTOBER 13, 2015 AT 7:35 AM, regarding why
      >> didn’t ADOSH investigate more after the SAIR turned out to be a white-wash:
      >>
      >> “That’s all they could do.
      >>
      >> It will still probably take some kind of court case ( but it will only take ONE single
      >> court case ) to ever get a lot of the people who were never even interviewed ‘into a
      >> room’ to even just get depositions… OR have them look at the existing evidence
      >> ( photos, etc. ) to see if THEY can ‘fill in the blanks’… if for no other reason than to
      >> at least make sure the historical record for this HISTORIC incident is accurate.”

      That remains true. It will still only take ONE court case where witnesses can be called to get all these people onto the stand, or into a ‘room’ for a REAL deposition, once and for all.

      >> Marti also said…
      >>
      >> Maybe, given all this mess, and all the rabbit-holes WE have had to spend our
      >> TIME wandering down into, just because there was never the actual investigation
      >> that the Arizona Governor Janet Brewer actually ORDERED published,……………….
      >>
      >> Is it possible that we might be better served by investing our TIME in figuring
      >> out how to envision and implement that…..
      >> “some kind of court case ( but it will only take ONE single court case )”
      >> that WTKTT wrote about in his comment?
      >>
      >> Just wondering, because I’m really running out of the kind of whatever it has
      >> taken to keep me (and us) doing this work (after TWO YEARS of doing it), and
      >> yet I am still committed to continuing to try to bring some kind of JUSTICE
      >> to this whole Cluster-f*ck Fire, which, ahem, IS STILL BURNING.
      >>
      >> Does anybody else resonate with what I have just written?

      Well… I certainly do.

      I ( me ), you… and a whole shitload of other people are the ones who are PAYING the SALARIES of ALL of these people who don’t think that telling the whole truth is something that applies to THEM.

      It’s called ‘Public Service’.

      Keyword: PUBLIC.

      You can try to be as insular as the damn MAFIA… but there are still LAWS that need to be obeyed and all this ‘secrecy’ is, in fact, part of the PROBLEM that has been uncovered by the events of June 30, 2013.

      That being said… Marti… I owe you an apology for the exchanges down below.

      I understand your frustration as we got back into these “Who had the camper top vehicle”? discussions… and the fact that this really was all discussed before and you were wondering why some of these discrepancies were only now surfacing.

      I went back and ‘checked the record’ myself… because I DO rememeber scratching my head way back when about SOME of the conclusions being reached… but couldn’t remember why I wasn’t ‘jumping in’.

      The answer is that at that time when you took off like a banshee and did this AMAZING work on the photos and the tracing of the vehicles and the owners… it actually happened right at the point where I was ‘heads down’ into the ABC15 News Helicopter footage from June 30, 2013, and I was trying to match the aerial footage with ground locations.

      That was no easy task. It came down ( in some cases ) to just scouring the landscape and trying to match small groups of BOULDERS seen in the aerial footage with the same groupings as seen in Google Earth.

      But I got it done.

      What I MISSED doing that was ‘jumping in’ when you ( and Calvin ) were doing this amazing job of nailing down all these ‘vehicles’, and ‘who owned them’, and what ‘photos’ they appeared in.

      So I’m going to try to RECAP that discussion from below, which was reignited by us trying to identify the FFs in the photo Gary Olson was asking about.

      That’s what led to that ‘revisit’ of “Who was driving what?” down below.

      I don’t have much time this evening so I’m going to have to SUMMARIZE what I’ve found since the posts below.

      I’ve been on airplanes solid and only today got back near the bulk of my own files and photos and notes… and I’ll be ‘back in the air’ tomorrow but I need to get the following information ‘off my desk’ so you have a chance to see it and come back with your own opinions.

      I’m going to ‘go there’ in the next ‘Reply’ to this message so this one doesn’t get ‘too long’.

      Reply

      • ** RANCE MARQUEZ’S VEHICLE

        Geez… I just looked at the clock and I have to be back in the air in just a few hours so I’m afraid I’m going to have to be quick about this… but it’s important.

        So apologies in advance for not supplying ‘links’ like I usually like to do, but I think you will know exactly what photos are being referenced below.

        There are THREE…

        1. That Blue Ridge Photo showing the ‘meeting’ out by the GM Crew Carriers that included Rance Marquez, Cougan Carothers and ( what is now pretty certain ) just two other Blue Ridge Hotshots ( but NOT Frisby and Brown because at the moment that photo was taken they were actually up on the ridge having that face-to-face with Eric Marsh and Jesse Steed ).

        2. The TWO Swartz photos in his ‘Town of Yarnell’ folder that show that ‘group’ of FFs out on the shoulder of 89 at the RHR… and the ones that ( I now believe ) show BOTH of the vehicles being drive by Rance Marquez and Cougan Carothers.

        Actually… I remember the TWO Swarts photo names off the top of my head.

        I am talking ( below ) about…

        20130630_1843_AZ-A1S-000688__YARNELL_FB_1_G_RS.JPG
        and
        20130630_1843_AZ-A1S-000688__YARNELL_FB_5_G_RS.JPG

        I’ll call them just ‘FB_1’ and ‘FB_5’ since that’s the only thing different in the filenames in that Swartz ‘Town of Yarnell’ folder.

        Okay… here we go. Sorry this had to be ‘narrative’ style because I really am ‘outta time’ at the moment.

        The other vehicle with the camper top in that BR photo of the Marquez/Carothers + 2 others “meeting” out where the GM carriers were parked CANNOT be the other CYFD pickup with the camper top.

        There is no LIGHT RACK on the top of it.

        But you are RIGHT that there IS this ‘other vehicle’ parked between the CYFD pickup without the camper top ( and just the silver toolbox in the bed ) that was being driven by Cougan Carothers.

        It is WHITE ( on the top )… it has a LOOOONG whellbase, and it does, in fact, have a camper top.

        But the answer here is simple.

        That is the “WHITE with YELLOW STRIPE” looong extended-cab ( with camper top ) BLM pickup that Rance Marquez was driving that day.

        That also CANNOT be ‘Gary Cordes’ standing in that group of four FFs having that ‘meeting’.

        In Rance Marquez”s own typed UNIT LOG ( submitted to ADOSH only because he testified to ADOSH that he even offered this Unit Log of his to the SAIT and they actually said they did NOT want it )…. Marquez specifically references that meeting that was photographed in that BR photo.

        He CONFIRMS ( in his Unit Log ) that Gary Cordes only gave them DIRECTIONS to get out there to where those GM Carriers were parked. Cordes did NOT GO OUT THERE himself. It’s pretty safe now to say that after Cordes ‘handed off’ the dozer HEQB/DOZB job to BR Hotshot Cory Ball circa 10:30 AM… Cordes never went back out there to the Sesame area for the rest of the day. He worked ‘in town’ from that point on.

        Marquez says that when they FIRST arrived out there… they stopped where all the carriers were parked and had a ‘meeting’ with two of the Blue Ridge Hotshots. They told him that Frisby and Brown had gone up to the ridge for that face-to-face meeting which ( according to GPS data ) happened from exactly 11:55 AM to 12:25 PM.

        So that’s what that BR photo really is.

        It captures the moment when Marquez and Carothers met with two of the BR Hotshots ( probably squad leaders ) who were ‘hanging around’ there by the BR Carriers right where the GM Carriers also were.

        So that photo is ( from left to right )…

        A tall ( almost bald ) BR Hotshot with some kind of ‘orange’ thing around his neck.
        Cougan Carothers.
        Rance Marquez ( in that light-lemon-yellow Nomex shirt that is easily recognized and unlike the color of anyone else’s Nomex shirt that day ).
        Another ( shorter ) Blue Ridge Hotshot with a black ball cap and what looks to be ‘white kerchiefs’ sticking out of his pockets.

        The FF you thought was Cordes ( on the left ) is the same HEIGHT and BUILD as that same BR Hotshot who ended up shielding Brendan McDonough from the video camera in the Russ Reason video as Brendan was standing at the back of Marty Cole’s all-white Tacoma pickup with camper top.

        He is ALSO the same TALL BR Hotshot seen in that photo taken of Brian Frisby just after they arrived at the RHR and just after hearing the deployment traffic. He is on the RIGHT side of that photo, in closeup, and he still has that same pinkish-orange thing around his neck as seen in the ‘meeting’ photo. It appears to be just some kind of strap holding his sunglasses… but the COLOR is a definite match for whatever is around the neck of the BR FF that you thought might be ‘Cordes’ in the ‘meeting’ photo.

        Now for the Swartz ‘Town of Yarnell’ photos ( FB_1 and FB _5 ).

        That is the SAME long white camper-top pickup seen parked on the road there as seen in the BR hotshot ‘meeting’ photo ( in-between Cougan’s CYFD no-camper pickup and the GM Crew Carriers ).

        FB_1 doesn’t show the BLM ‘green diamond’ logo on the door… but FB_5 DOES.

        So that pretty much HAS to be the ‘long white BLM pickup with camper top’ that Rance Marquez was driving that day.

        Rance Marquez WORKED as a ‘Fuels expert’ for BLM circa June, 2013.
        His RESOURCE order shows him as being sub-contracted from BLM and the ‘transportation’ field on his order SAYS he was driving an ‘AOV’ ( Agency Owned Vehicle )’.

        So that long white pickup with the camper top ( and no light bar ) and the yellow stripe and the ‘green diamond’ BLM logo on the door had to be his.

        The other ‘match’ is on the ‘roof’ of this long white camper-top truck.

        It does NOT have a ‘light bar’ ( as Gary Cordes’ CYFD camper-top pickup did )… but it does have a small black KNOB with a radio antenna sticking out of it.

        That same KNOB is seen BOTH the ‘Sesame clearing meeting’ photo AND in BOTH of the Swartz photos.

        So unless I am losing my mind… I think all of the following things are now true…

        1. The vehicles in that BR ‘meeting’ photo ( other than the GM Crew Carriers ) are simply Rance Marquez’s long white camper-top BLM truck and Cougan Carothers’ CYFD non-camper-top pickup.

        2. Gary Cordes is NOT in that photo, nor was he present at that ‘meeting’.

        3. Gary Cordes really WAS driving that ‘camper top’ CYFD pickup that day, so that means that really is him still up north on Hwy 89 at 4:16 PM as seen in the Jake Guadiana video….

        4. ….and that means that really is him seen driving south on Highway 89 in the ( thank to Joy Collura ) Anna Marie Lechner photo… which Anna Marie has now already confirmed WAS taken in about the 4:45 PM timeframe.

        I think that eliminates him as a candidate for being the one to drive Cory Ball to the YFD to get the ATV… but that all depends on the accuracy of the TIME on the Anna Marie Lechner photo.

        More later…

        Reply

        • Thanks TONS, WTKTT!!

          You and I really “walked away” from our “vehicle id-ing” with COMPLETELY different takes on things.

          But, I think you’re correct here, and no, you aren’t losing your mind, but all of my marbles are DEFINITELY tossed up in the air again. But in a good way. But now I have a bunch more questions about where my marbles are going to fall.

          I have REPEATEDLY said that I thought Rance Marquez (when I wasn’t mistakenly saying Cougan Carothers) was driving that BLUE truck that crossed the Air2Air camera at 3:51PM (which is partially why I didn’t believe Rance’s testimony) before being seen in the video on 89 before being seen in Aaron’s video turning around before being seen in almost all of Story’s photos, etc etc. It’s also seen in a photo taken at 2:15 PM at the ICP in the photo IMG_20130630_141459_148.jpg from the MiscASFD collection.

          And I had completely missed the differences between the BLM truck that we see Dan Philbin walking away from and that other BLM truck. And they’re totally different. I had missed that.

          And I had thought the BR Hotshot in the photo of Brian Frisby was Trew Brown. I had no idea there was a BR Hotshot who was “almost bald” looking. That’s why I thought the guy at the far left in the “meeting” photo was Gary Cordes. He’s the only “almost bald” grey-haired person I know of on the fire.

          Is that “almost bald” person in the video of the BR Hotshots at that later event (I can’t remember what even that was, because I haven’t looked at that video all that much)?

          I had pretty much given up trying to identify all the BR Hotshots because it was becoming a “rabbit hole” for me. Becuz it’s really hard to tell their differences, especially when they’re covered with dirt, smoke, helmets, and sunglasses, unless they REALLY look different. I still have trouble trying to distinguish who’s Brian and who’s Trew in all of those RHR parking lot photos.

          So I had id’d the guys in the “meeting” photo as (l to r) Cordes, Ball (and I’m still not totally in agreement with you that that is Rance Marquez for certain reasons), Cougan Carothers, and Rance Marquez.

          I’ve pretty much associated Cory Ball with that big turned-up collar (ish), for better or worse.

          So now that leaves me wondering, “WHO was driving that BLUE truck???”

          The blue truck has two decals on it. I can’t read the one on the front drivers side door, but the one on the side of the bed is another one of those “IMT” decals that, I’m pretty sure, is related to the “Arizona Central West Zone Incident Management Team,” except it has a blue BLM triangle on it, which is another reason why I associated it with Rance Marquez.

          So now we have TWO trucks with those “IMT” decals in the RHR parking lot photos; and now I have no idea WHO was driving EITHER of them. The white one is an “Arizona Fire” truck (that I REALLY don’t think Paul Musser was driving — see my many reasons downstream) and the other is a BLM-related truck.

          And, yeah, Dean Steward is a real character. Hope he gets his socialist pension benefits. He surely deserves them, even if nobody else on the planet deserves their (obummer is a socialist) socialist benefits!!

          Reply

          • Yikes. It’s 9:20 in the morning here in Burque and we’re having an electrical storm plus hail. In the middle of October.

            Fortunately the Balloon Fiesta had the best weather (except for one day) that I’ve seen in about a decade. Bookended by heavy curtains of cold, rainy weather.

            Oh well, Albuquerque still has about the best (climate-change-impacted) weather in the country!

            Reply

          • Oh, and also I had missed the missingness of the lightbar on that white truck in the “meeting” photo. Or just thought it must have been hidden by the big truck in front of it.

            It really is a Lessons Learned lesson (at least for me) as to how easy it is for the narratives we have carefully and painstaking developed in our heads to turn into rutted roads that we drive over again and again and again until we think they represent “The Truth.”

            Namaste!

            Reply

          • OK I just realized, after going back and doing some more scouring, that ALL the IMT decals on the trucks seen in photos and videos from the Yarnell Fire have that big blue triangle on the left side of them.

            So that means that the blue truck is NOT associated with BLM, and I think the decal on the side door is probably also a State Forestry Division division decal.

            Reply

    • Marti is right–How can anyone write a book of facts about the Yarnell Hill Fire when the real story is under gag order and whitewash. There is much yet to be revealed but indeed conjecture is out there already as we saw from the Dickman story. Facts mixed with fiction equals fiction.

      Well Dr Ted Putnam and John Dougherty proved to me that they are after the facts of this Yarnell firestorm that killed nineteen young men, burned half the town of Yarnell and a number of residences of Peeples Valley, left a legacy of aftermath deaths in the amount over 50 Yarnell residents since the fire and plenty of answered questions. Folks, that is ten percernt of our Yarnell population wiped out–something John says is off the chart. Yet no one has investigated the reasons for that. Were there poisons in the air–most people who have died from lung and heart problems. That heart deprived of oxygen is a killer and its death is generally due to oxygen deprivation. I have myself had to alter my hiking habits and lately had problems even crossing the Wal Mart store from one end to the other. Three heart stints and a diagnosis of possible early COPD after all ranks me among those in this town who are presently complaining of lung problems after the fire that was allowed to burn by preference of certain unidentified persons–at least publicly.

      When we were on the mountain Joy wondered why it seemed that not much was being done to stop the fire. I told her that the main idea was to let it go for a prescribed burn. Was that why the Yarnell fire department was discouraged–even ordered to stand down in their efforts to halt the fire? Gag orders keep the real truth withheld at least publicly while local residents gag on the crap they are fed to make this look like a God incident. Ordinarily you would have believed 19 lives of America’s finests would deserve the investigation of a high federal investigation–namely the FBI who would not be connected to the good old boy and crony system that is evident in this situation. How on God’s earth can something like this be glossed over as if good old Jesus intended those boys to go to their death without due process.

      The thing is it seems that allowing fires to escalate beyond control allows a lot of financial benefits to certain parties and that even after the fire —but at what cost. Well those that did profit from this never look at what allowing a miniature lighting strike really does cost. Will this change the way the future fire bosses view fires? We certainly hope so since the only benefit to society at large will be the lessons learned from the folly of the Yarnell Hill Fire.

      Reply

    • If there is ANY smokejumpers out there that was fed doubt in 2015 on hikers. Contact me directly to show the truth always matters…
      We can sit down in person and cover your doubts. Also we know one person will look into Smokejumper 2015 convention video footage but I am using this platform to inquire to anyone else who has footage reach us with it. It is sad Johnny broke news to me…aloha…Moses…you may have been spot on…

      Reply

  11. nobody i know who’s UsFS or BLM have orders on them not to talk about yarnell.//….. theres not a order not to talk about it that i know of..…. mebbe there is order but i nver seen it and my friends either???? ..//?? ppl get nervous and dont want to talkk and have there info on here.//…..

    Reply

    • Dale1— It was ordered on the BR Hot Shots and FS Overhead on the Fire.
      Along with the Heavily redacted written Statements of the Crew. When the SAIT report came out.

      Reply

      • Dale1 If you and your friends were not on Yarnell Hill Fire.
        Then there would be no Gag order on you or them it has to do with
        Witness information from those on the scene.

        Reply

    • dale1 says
      OCTOBER 19, 2015 AT 11:07 AM

      nobody i know who’s UsFS or BLM have orders on them not to talk about yarnell.WERE ANY OF YOUR USFS OR BLM A PART IN CRUCIAL POINTS TO THE YHF AND THAT DEFINES FRIDAY AND SATURDAY AND SUNDAY BECAUSE EACH DAY CARRIED CRUCIAL POINTS —I WISH I COULD BRING UP A FEW THINGS—SHIT—I DO BUT GOTTA KEEP THIS LINE TIGHT//….. theres not a order not to talk about it that i know ofCAN YOU DIRECTLY ASK THE PEOPLE YOU KNOW…AHHH SHIT…I CAN’T,,,I WILL LET THE PROFESSIONALS ASK THE QUESTIONS TO YOU DALE1 BUT NOW YOU ARE IMPORTANT TO THIS HERE DISCUSSION BECAUSE YOU KNOW POSSIBLY PEOPLE THAT WERE ON THE YHF…AND YET THEY HAVE NEVER COME TO THIS PAGE TO TALK OR HELP ANSWER QUESTIONS DURING SERIOUS DISCUSSIONS NOT EVEN IN PRIVATE LIKE MANY HAVE DONE FOR US INCLUDING EX GMHS…. mebbe there is order but i nver seen it and my friends eitherASK AROUND BECAUSE THIS IS NOT OUR FIRST ACCOUNT OF HEARING YET IT IS OUR FIRST ACCOUNT TO KNOW THIS PERSON HAS ONE HELL OF A CREDENTIAL BACKGROUND AND THAT ALONE IS GOLD
      ???? ..//?? ppl get nervous and dont want to talkkI KNOW THAT EMOTION DEEPLY. A SERIAL KILLER IS OUT OR SOON OUT AND I KNOW ALL TOO WELL ABOUT NERVES/DONT WANT TO SPEAK/LAY LOW AND JUST LIVE MY LIFE AND KEEP THE WORLD OUT…HAD BEEN DOING IT ALL MY LIFE UNTIL I MET SONNY…HE HAS BEEN MY BIGGEST LIFE CHANGING EVENT AS WELL AS HOW TO FACE NEW FOREIGN CHALLENGES…YOU ASK ANYONE IN CHANDLER THAT I ONLY TOOK CARE OF MY NEAR AND DEAR OLDER NEIGHBORS AND I ONLY MET MY GAL PALS AT THE GYM OR AWAY FROM MY HOME TO ROLLERBLADE…ROCK CLIMB…RUN…ETC…AND MET ALL CELEBS BUT A HANDFUL AWAY FROM MY HOME—ONLY A FEW GOVT FOLKS AND CELEBS BEEN IN MY HOME—I JUST AM NOT SOCIAL LIKE THAT…IN CONGRESS THOUGH, YOU STOP BY THE WATER COMPANY HERE AND ASK ABOUT ME—SHE WILL STATE EXACTLY THE FOLLOWING FOR IT IS A COPY/PASTE OF HER OWN WORDS:
      “I have known Joy for approximately ten years. In the time I have known her she has always been interested in community service and in helping both the older people and the children in our community. She has never accepted any payment for her service and has a strong Christian belief that it is all our duty to help the less fortunate and needy around us.

      I know that Joy has always love the desert and enjoys taking long hikes in the area. She has a great concern for the fireman who were killed in the Yarnell fire and the area surrounding that burn site.

      Over the years Joy has dropped what ever she was doing to help me and my family so if I can do something to help her I am glad to do it.

      If I can be of further assistance don’t hesitate to contact me.

      Sincerely

      Patricia l Fisher ”
      AS SHE IS ONE OF ALMOST FEW THOUSAND+ SIGNATURES WE GATHERED IN A FEW DAYS FROM SUNDAY TO WEDNESDAY NIGHT TO SHOW JUDGE THAT DAY 1-8-15 THAT I HAVE EXCELLENT CHARACTER AND IT WAS JUST ONE FRUSTRATED MOMENT—I AM NOT A THREAT TO ANYONE—NOT EVEN THE ONES NARRATING THE YHF…I CAN GET FRUSTRATED AND MOODY–I AM HUMAN BUT NOT OF ANY BODILY HARM…JUST WANT ANSWERS AND IT SEEMS I AM FINALLY GETTING THEM…THANK YOU BUNCHES TOO…
      … and have there info on here.//…..WELL, DALE1…MANY IN THAT SAME BOAT HAVE COME TO US IN CONFIDENTIALITY AND AS WELL AS BOB POWERS HAS HAD THAT HAPPEN AND GARY OLSEN. WE ARE NOT TRYING TO “WIN” OR MAKE A BOOK OR GATHER THE MOST INFORMATION BUT WE WILL KEEP THE I M CAMPFIRE ALIVE AND BURNING BECAUSE IT IS THE HONORABLE RIGHT THING TO DO—TOO MANY AFFECTED BY THE YHF…RIGHT OTIS FROM ANOTHER COUNTRY?

      REPLY BELOW

      Reply FROM Bob Powers OCTOBER 19, 2015 AT 11:16 AM

      Dale1— It was ordered on the BR Hot Shots and FS Overhead on the Fire. AS WELL AS THIS PERSON.

      Along with the Heavily redacted written Statements of the Crew. When the SAIT report came out. WHICH IS THE PART I WANT TO ADD..THE REASON I AM NOT MENTIONING LOCATION AND WHO AND AWAIT THE PROFESSIONALS TO INTERVIEW THEM—(JOHN DOUGHERTY/DR TED PUTNAM/ORIGINAL OSHA MEN WE HIKED)…JOHN MACLEAN WOULD UNDERSTAND THIS TERMINOLOGY—“KEEP A TIGHT LINE”—IF I LOOSEN THE INFORMATION TOO FAST AND TOO PURE—WE MAY NOT LAND THE VERY FIRST ALIVE ACCOUNT THAT WAS PRESENT AT A CRUCIAL PART TO THE FIRE THAT STATES VERBALLY THE PERSON WAS GAGGED UNDER FEDERAL ORDERS AND SERVED AND I MADE SURE MANY TIMES TO DEFINE THAT—WHO IT IS OBVIOUS BY BODY LANGUAGE IS “UNDER PRESSURE”—SO WE THE HIKERS HAVE TO MAINTAIN A TIGHT LINE…NOT A TIGHT LIP BECAUSE WE ARE NOT GAGGED—YOU EVER SEE A SPANIARD LEAD A BULL WITH THAT LARGE RING IN HIS NOSE…SMOOTHLY DRAW IT IN AND IT WILL FOLLOW…BACK TO LOWER case…I was using CAPS for replying only…not emphasize of a word…
      back to my fish on a line and where I was headed—The SAIT means to me just this…as long as they keep that head moving in the right direction, they have a better chance of dictating and controlling the fight and keeping emotions under control. But, not always. Often the fish tumbles, jumps or quickly changes directions and gets his head going in the opposite direction that they want. When this happens the fish is in control and often heads for cover/structure, which more often than not means logs. I am just letting the fishies know…we have enough confidential accounts and it begins with YOU speaking up and now we know concretely there are these fishies…and about the fish line…there can be a fine line between too much pressure and not enough. Often, it isn’t enough…I do not want to lose this rare opportunity…The time, in my opinion…when a fish is most likely to “spit the hook” ….send the hook back to you…. is when it’s down stream, facing you, and shaking its head violently…When this occurs…let him go…
      bottom line in any part of making it may it be fishing or landing a job…its the smoothness and fastness and well I don’t have it so that is why I have to let the professionals take my line to reach this person properly…I don’t want to screw it up…but this is a fair enough statement to share to those on the YHF right now that if this person ends up speaking first and not YOU and you know who you are…this is not a joke…it is better if you speak up first before this person. I would say in my humble opinion contact John Dougherty…Dr Ted Putnam…and the OSHA originals as I am awaiting that as well…I seriously WOULD NOT wait until you see what this person says first…time to open up…it is…I am not trying to pressure you yet this is not just some housewife huffing and puffing…it is going to happen…the news will come out…I won’t allow it to just sit QUIET like so many of you did for 2+ years…I just need it done the right way.

      Reply

      • thank you to person who stated this:
        Mon, Oct 19, 2015 at 10:24 AM
        Glad it is coming from someone else so others will realize you weren’t doing any of your research to get attention for yourself as some might purport.

        my reply:
        Exactly my thought…I was like oh shit…I am hearing this…why can’t John Dougherty hear it or Dr Ted Putnam…WHY ME?
        why now…ugh…but I did say I had open door…

        Reply

        • DALE1 IS CORRECT—I HAVE MORE SUPPORT FROM FOLKS READING ONLY THE SITE AND REPLYING TO ME ANOTHER WAY VS POSTING HERE…SEE FROM A PERSON WHO SUPPORTS ME CONTINUING ON…:
          Mon, Oct 19, 2015 at 12:31 PM
          “I didn’t believe in psychics until I met one”—-the person “took an inordinate amount of “heat” from the Christian fundamentalists
          in Prescott”.
          “To those people,” the person “was a “witch”; she was an evil “fool” glorifying herself by
          manipulating Satan, etc., etc.”
          to her it was all just water off a duck’s back.
          So Joy, that’s the attitude you need to cultivate. Just forge ahead and do what
          you have to do. Well, for whatever it’s worth, I do hope this entirely unsolicited
          advice helps you. And thanks for everything you have already done – regarding the
          Yarnell Hill Fire.

          TO ME THAT SOUNDS LIKE THE GENERAL FOLKS VIEWS THAT REACH OUT TO ME…YET EVEN IF ALL 100% COMMUNICATIONS WERE BASHING ME I WOULD STILL SHARE THE SAME AS I DO…I WISH I CAN SHARE MORE AND AT EASE THE PURITY IMMEDIATELY AS IT HAPPENS YET I THINK I HAVE DONE MY VERY BEST CONSIDERING…

          Reply

  12. Thank you RF for the map you sent Sonny and me Sun, Oct 18, 2015 at 7:38 PM (check email Sonny)…I told someone I trust away from cyber world and cells and home so I am not the only one besides Sonny who heard what I heard today…in a way I did say I had an open door for all but this person did not know me or Sonny and as I heard the sharing…it was hard…very hard…shew…From the rough and tumble street life I once saw to the arid terrains I pioneered…I am sure as time goes by…in His time…like Sonny stated MORE will come out of hiding to protect and honor all affected by YHF…and maybe the tables will turn and a flood of information surfaces for the record PUBLIC…I wish I could be pure Dale1…I do…but I have no clue what it all means when a federal judge served a gag like that…what the hell is going on? I got slapped by an order by a local judge and I took it serious so I could not imagine what these people are going through….fighting their own wars internally…maybe Louis L’Amour had it right when he would write…ride along into danger…traveling under an alias…and step back into time…this Investigative Media is much more than some blog area…it is a great place to learn information as well time line the YHF…a great place to come forward and SPEAK UP…Now if I ever end up in court from any affected by YHF as being overly interested in a fire that I eye-witnessed and survived it going a longer way out…I just hit the freaking mother lode today with a REAL freaking person with the highest credentials who was on the fire and told the TRUE story…For me, it was not easy to listen to the words. I hope they all tell their stories as life unfolds…I hope the thundering roars I heard today come hammering down…because it has been a long ride home Louis L’Amour…I think this blog is more than a blog…I will say Sonny is right…I will share with John Dougherty/Dr. Ted Putnam/OSHA original guys we hiked and talked to IN PERSON this account…but the rest…nah—serious…not any homeowner or loved one—this news ain’t coming from me—it needs to be stated as it was told…by the person who was there not third party or hearsay but right there that person was…shew….what is the chances when at 4:59am today I cancelled my time to see Sonny so to be at 2pm…hearing someone was told on a federal level…THANK YOU for sharing today what you did no matter how hard it was to hear it because you just confirmed alot I said on here that more will come forward…really, thank you. Spread the word and have more share…

    Reply

  13. Indeed Bob Powers, this is a fitting time to begin a new chapter. New information was revealed to Joy and me today at about 2 PM in Prescott. An officer there told us that he had been served a federal order to not discuss the Yarnell Hill Fire and things he witnessed and knew that went on that day. Considering that the investigation into the deaths of 19 of America’s finest has been tampered with this way so that pertinent and vital information to reveal the true causes and factors leading up to their deaths would seem to be a travesty of justice–something that someone in our government with high authority ought to be looking into. The feds that ordered this ought to have someone over them to get to the bottom of why the gag order was put out to dampen the investigation.

    I dare say the white wash is beginning to fade and the real facts of what happened and why are slowly surfacing. The internet indeed is working its wonders–and a number of people are also beginning to reveal things. Sadly the person we spoke to is also in fear of loosing his job and credentials and therefore must remain anonymous. However you will see that many after retirement and those that move on to other jobs will begin to speak their minds and give us facts and information that has not been allowed to surface due to these legal orders if indeed they are legal.

    From what I heard today it is obvious that the information that man has would have legal ramifications against certain of the bosses involved in the fire. Their must be some who are loosing much sleep over their involvement in the fire considering that those persons have worked and angle so that there would be no blame in their game. That good old boy attitude seems to prevail but truth has a way of shining its way through and Karma seems to eat away at those involved in the cover up. I do know from today’s experience that too many are ready to talk and the restrains they are under at this time will eventually wear thin and are already at their breaking point in many cases.

    What we can conclude from sources that are telling us the real facts is that this investigation is far from over. As this man said, the reason he and others were gagged was because certain entities wanted it to appear a certain way to their satisfaction, not to get to allow the people to know the actual facts of how things were played out. He is one fellow I would like to see the FBI interrogate. He, being the officer and reputation he has, would be one to cause an opening into a proper and reliable investigation concerning matters that caused the demise of the 19 firefighters. I believe it would shake up the way things are done in future fire cases such as the Yarnell lightning strike that was allowed to develop into a full fledged disaster. And more importantly it would save future lives on that account. Are not the lives of future men on the fire line more important than the loss of a few jobs due to the negligence we saw with the Yarnell Hill Disaster?

    Reply

    • Sonny I need to think on this.
      The Gag order would mean nothing coming from the Feds.
      They were not in charge of the Investigation.
      The only people the Feds could Gag would be their employees.

      There is something quite strange here. Are you sure the State did not do the Gag order?

      The Federal Government has no control over State, County or City Governments. If it was a Federal Investigation then they would be able to require thru supine and Court Order a gag Order on all Witnesses.
      Again this was not a Federal Investigation.
      As Lawyers for their Employees they could Order them only.

      Need a lot more here but very Interesting. Thanks

      Reply

      • we will tell in person the 3 names we mentioned on here how to reach the person who is anonymous to get their own interviews…yes I thought strange too…yet alot he said was not eay to hear…

        Reply

      • Bob said “The Gag order would mean nothing coming from the Feds.”

        Joy said: The person stated “he was served on a federal level not state.” The person stated there are others. The person stated alot but we will allow the person to be interviewed by the pros like the three I mentioned…this is nothing to take lightly either….I mean tomorrow I am sanding furniture and I have no wheels and Sonny would have to be reached separate because he is doing his stuff…but I am here but I cannot meet people out of town…but here…I prefer Sonny to be present for in person talk though..since he was there.

        Reply

        • I do not believe there was a Federal Court involved. or a Federal Investigation.
          It was all handled at the State Level. Maybe there is something we all missed.

          Reply

    • Reply to Sonny post on October 18, 2015 at 6:53 pm

      >> Sonny said…
      >>
      >> I believe it would shake up the way things are done in future fire cases such
      >> as the Yarnell lightning strike that was allowed to develop into a full fledged
      >> disaster. And more importantly it would save future lives on that account.
      >> Are not the lives of future men on the fire line more important than the loss
      >> of a few jobs due to the negligence we saw with the Yarnell Hill Disaster?

      Well said, Sonny.

      Reply

  14. First I think it is time for a new chapter– been hard to get on the past few days

    Second I saw in the Dailey courier Prescott that McDonough is again applying for
    a medical retirement due to his mental problems. It was in yesterdays Paper.

    Also over on Wildfire today there is a article on the removal of an IC on a Great Basin Team after complaints were filed by 2 Hot Shot Crews.

    Reply

    • Reply to Bob Powers post on October 18, 2015 at 6:57 am

      >> Bob Powers said…
      >>
      >> First I think it is time for a new chapter– been hard to get on the past few days.

      Agree. This page is now exceeding the limits of some mobile browsers as well.

      >> Bob Powers also said…
      >>
      >> Second I saw in the Dailey courier Prescott that McDonough is again
      >> applying for a medical retirement due to his mental problems. It
      >> was in yesterdays Paper.

      The story has also made the ABC News affiliate ABC15…

      http://www.abc15.com/news/region-northern-az/prescott/survivor-of-deadly-yarnell-hill-fire-applying-for-benefits

      They should just ‘fast track’ the request and go ahead and give it to him.
      He may be ‘unemployable’ for the rest of his life.

      In related news… the “Wildland Firefighter Foundation” aid organization ( based in Boise, Idaho ) that Brendan used to work for as a ‘counselor’ is in the news again as well. Three Board members have quit because the founders ( Vicki Minor and her son Burk ) still won’t do what they promised in response to all the previous financial mismanagement issues. Vicki minor had agreed to hire an independent CFO ( Chief Financial Officer ) but has simply ‘promoted from within’ and moved her own assistant into the job. Board says she isn’t qualified and that Minor just wants to run it like a ‘family business’…. so they quit.

      I don’t think Brendan should have ever even gone to work for them.
      He wasn’t/isn’t qualified to be a ‘counselor’ to anyone.

      >> Bob Powers also said…
      >>
      >> Also over on Wildfire today there is a article on the removal of an IC on a
      >> Great Basin Team after complaints were filed by 2 Hot Shot Crews.

      Lots of issues involved here… including complaints now about SAFENET and how some people ‘behind the red wall’ now think it’s not even a good idea to have that kind of an outlet for FFs to even complain about anything.

      Speaking of ‘sole survivors’… also in the WFF news…

      The parents of Daniel Lyon, the only FF to survive from that Engine burnover on Woods Canyon Road ( Twisp Fire ) have just held another press conference after a long period of saying nothing.

      Daniel IS doing better… but he apparently go into some trouble with some infections and it was touch and go for a while.

      He’s had 10 ( TEN ) surgeries since the incident on August 19, 2015… and still a few more to go…. but he’s apparently doing WELL.

      He’s able to do physical REHAB now and he WILL get out of that hospital eventually.

      He only recently even ASKED about his crewmates from that day and his parents finally informed him that he was the only one who didn’t die.

      They also say he has had very little to say about the incident ( even to them ) and he just said he is ‘praying for the families’.

      It’s still a long road ahead for Daniel… but he has enough skin back now that he’s probably no longer in danger of dying from post-burn infections.

      His parents say that, due to the burns to his face area, they still have trouble telling when Daniel is either sobbing… or laughing. He still has to tell them which is which.

      Now all we need to know is what the fuck that Engine was even DOING up that road, at that time, and putting those men directly ABOVE a dynamic, uncontained fire… when even Okanogan County Fire District 6 Chief Don Waller had already issued the warning “DO NOT PROCEED UP WOODS CANYON ROAD”.

      Reply

    • Test. Mobile not posting. We have crucial new evidence. Need to talk to John Dougherty…Dr Ted Putnam…OSHA in person immediately. Serious information.

      Reply

      • The time has arrived

        . Ivwill be sharing this information to others in person I trustvnot by phone or anywhere cyber…what God did today was nothing but miraculous

        Reply

    • Indeed Bob Powers, this is a fitting time to begin a new chapter. New information was revealed to Joy and me today at about 2 PM in Prescott. An officer there told us that he had been served a federal order to not discuss the Yarnell Hill Fire and things he witnessed and knew that went on that day. Considering that the investigation into the deaths of 19 of America’s finest has been tampered with this way so that pertinent and vital information to reveal the true causes and factors leading up to their deaths would seem to be a travesty of justice–something that someone in our government with high authority ought to be looking into. The feds that ordered this ought to have someone over them to get to the bottom of why the gag order was put out to dampen the investigation.

      I dare say the white wash is beginning to fade and the real facts of what happened and why are slowly surfacing. The internet indeed is working its wonders–and a number of people are also beginning to reveal things. Sadly the person we spoke to is also in fear of loosing his job and credentials and therefore must remain anonymous. However you will see that many after retirement and those that move on to other jobs will begin to speak their minds and give us facts and information that has not been allowed to surface due to these legal orders if indeed they are legal.

      From what I heard today it is obvious that the information that man has would have legal ramifications against certain of the bosses involved in the fire. Their must be some who are loosing much sleep over their involvement in the fire considering that those persons have worked and angle so that there would be no blame in their game. That good old boy attitude seems to prevail but truth has a way of shining its way through and Karma seems to eat away at those involved in the cover up. I do know from today’s experience that too many are ready to talk and the restrains they are under at this time will eventually wear thin and are already at their breaking point in many cases.

      What we can conclude from sources that are telling us the real facts is that this investigation is far from over. As this man said, the reason he and others were gagged was because certain entities wanted it to appear a certain way to their satisfaction, not to get to allow the people to know the actual facts of how things were played out. He is one fellow I would like to see the FBI interrogate. He, being the officer and reputation he has, would be one to cause an opening into a proper and reliable investigation concerning matters that caused the demise of the 19 firefighters. I believe it would shake up the way things are done in future fire cases such as the Yarnell lightning strike that was allowed to develop into a full fledged disaster. And more importantly it would save future lives on that account. Are not the lives of future men on the fire line more important than the loss of a few jobs due to the negligence we saw with the Yarnell Hill Disaster?

      Reply

  15. **
    ** NEXT MEETING OF THE “YARNELL HILL MEMORIAL SITE’ BOARD” IS OCTOBER 23, 2015

    The official online page where this Arizona PUBLIC Board called the “Yarnell Hill Memorial Site Board” is legally required to post notices of meetings, agendas and the ‘minutes’ from all previous meetings has just been updated…

    http://azstateparks.com/committees/Yarnell.html

    At the top of the page it now says…

    “The next Site Board Meeting will be on October 23, 2015. The agenda is posted below”

    Just below that… someone also updated the ‘Meeting Dates’ section…

    ———————————————-
    Meeting Dates

    October 23, 2015 (3pm. at the Yavapai County Supervisor’s Building, Gladys Gardener room, located at 1015 Fair Street in Prescott)
    ———————————————–

    The AGENDA for this upcoming October 23, 2015 meeting has also been posted… but it is just as worthless as all the previous ‘Agendas’ published since they first established all the ‘subcommittees’.

    Since they first established their ‘subcommittees’… all the published ‘agendas’ ever say is “The subcommittees will present their reports”.

    Absolutely no REAL information about what is going to be discussed, or voted on, at any particular meeting… which is also a violation of Arizona Open Meetings laws. Arizona Law says that ANY issues that are obviously of interest to the ‘the PUBLIC’…. or any important VOTES that are planned… are supposed to be specifically mentioned in an ‘agenda’ so that the PUBLIC has a better chance to attend those meetings.

    Someone has also now UPDATED the ‘blurb’ at the top of that page that recently appeared with says…

    “The Park is currently closed to the public while under development.
    There are no public roads or trail access available.”

    Apparently the original FORMAT for that line wasn’t good enough for someone… and they decided to BOLDFACE it so it STANDS OUT more than before.

    And even though it is obvious that someone has now paid attention to this website and has tried to bring it ‘up to date’… they are still breaking Arizona Law and have still NOT POSTED the MINUTES from the following two previous Board meetings…

    05/29/2015 ( Their May 5, 2015 PUBLIC meeting ).
    09/18/2015 ( Their September 18, 2015 PUBLIC meeting ).

    They are still choosing to break the Arizona laws governing all Arizona State PUBLIC Boards and HIDE the minutes for these two previous meetings.

    The September 9, 2015 meeting was supposed to be the one where Board member Amanda Marsh would make some kind of ‘report’ to the Board about her ‘unsupervised’ polling of the ‘family members’ regarding what the final PUBLIC access to the PUBLIC park should look like.

    That is also the meeting where, if Amanda Marsh reported that the families were ‘split’ ( whatever that means ) about what the PUBLIC access to the PUBLIC park should really look like… then the Board was going to just go ahead an VOTE for themselves about that and set the final ‘access’ rules themselves.

    We still have no idea what Amanda Marsh reported to the Board regarding the family members opinions and/or whether the Board has already set the ‘final access profile’ for the PUBLIC park.

    Reply

    • Sorry, typo above. I typed ‘September 9’ when it should have been ‘September 18’.

      Paragraph above should have read like this…

      The September 18, 2015 meeting was supposed to be the one where Board member Amanda Marsh would make some kind of ‘report’ to the Board about her ‘unsupervised’ polling of the ‘family members’ regarding what the final PUBLIC access to the PUBLIC park should look like.

      Reply

  16. **
    ** COUGAN CAROTHERS WAS DECLARED ‘NOT FIT FOR DUTY’ DUE TO
    ** STRESS RELATED ISSUES FOLLOWING THE YARNELL HILL FIRE.

    Reply to Marti Reed post on October 13, 2015 at 6:04 pm

    >> Marti Reed said…
    >>
    >> Joy said… “the lack of cooperation from the very people who fought on that fire”
    >>
    >> That’s why I don’t think Cougan Carothers will cooperate with either you or us.
    >> He refused to cooperate with the ADOSH Investigation.
    >>
    >> They all stand safely and staunchly behind the Red Fire Wall.

    ** THE SHORT STORY

    When ADOSH was first contacting CYFD and requesting interviews with their employees who had worked the Yarnell Hill Fire… they were simply told that CYFD employee Cougan Carothers was not ‘available’ for an interview because he had been on ‘medical leave’ since immediately following the Yarnell Fire due to ‘stress related issues’ as a result of his experiences on the Yarnell Hill Fire.

    That situation didn’t change for at least a month and half following the tragedy ( maybe more ).

    Even as late as August 15, 2013, when ADOSH was still asking, they were told that Cougan Carothers was still on ‘medical leave’ and still NOT on the ‘fit for duty’ list.

    CYFD never used the acronym PTSD… but they said directly ( multiple times ) that his ‘medical leave’ was ‘stress related’ and was allowing Carothers to (quote) ‘seek treatment’.

    After the last time they were informed that Cougan Carothers was still ‘on medical leave’ as late as August 15, 2013, they ( ADOSH ) basically just stopped asking about interviewing him.

    There is nothing to indicate exactly WHEN Cougan Carothers was finally taken off ‘medical leave’ and declared ‘fit for duty’ again.

    ** THE LONG STORY ( AND THE PROOF )

    Immediately following the Yarnell tragedy… at least TWO Central Yavapai Fire District ( CYFD ) employees who had been working in Yarnell on June 30, 2013 were designated ‘not fit for duty’ due to ‘stress related issues’.

    The ( at least ) two that are known to have been labelled ‘not fit for duty’ were…

    Cougan Carothers and Steve Emery.

    Just over a month after the tragedy ( on August 1, 2013 ), someone named Patty Brookins, who works as a ‘Human Resources Specialist’ for the Central Yavapai Fire District ( CYFD ), responded to an email that was sent to CYFD from ADOSH investigator Bruce Hanna.

    The original email from ADOSH investigator Bruce Hanna that requested this response from Patty Bookins doesn’t seem to be anywhere in the documents that were released by ADOSH… but based on the format and the content of Patty Bookins’ response, that original email from Bruce Hanna MUST have looked something like this…

    ————————————————————————————–
    From: Hanna, Bruce – OSHA State (AZ-SP)
    To: Patty Brookins, Human Resources Specialist, CYFD
    Sent: ???
    Subject: Central Yavapai Fire District

    Hello Ms. Brookins.

    My name is Bruce Hanna, ADOSH investigator working on the Yarnell Hill Fire investigation.

    We need information regarding ALL CYFD employees who might have worked the Yarnell Hill Fire… including ( but not limited to ) Todd Abel, Gary Cordes, Cougan Carothers, Charlie Reyes, Steve Emery, Matt McFadden, Ryan Ferris, and/or any other CYFD employee who worked the Yarnell Hill Fire.

    In each case ( and for each employee ) we need to know….

    1) Their full position designation.
    2) What their assignments were in Yarnell.
    3) The full scope of their possible contact(s) with Eric Marsh and the Granite Mountain Hotshots
    4) Their current whereabouts
    5) Whether they are available to be interviewed.

    Thank you in advance for your cooperation.

    Yours;
    Bruce Hanna, OSHA State (AZ-SP)
    ————————————————————————————–

    …or something like that.( since those are the questions Patty Brookins ended up answering for each CYFD employee in HER email response to Bruce Hanna ).

    Actually… even though there is no copy of that original email from Bruce Hanna, the ADOSH ‘Notes’ file that is ‘typed’ and ‘summarizes’ other ‘Notes/emails’ files and that seems to have been written by ADOSH lead investigator Bruce Hanna himself has some entries that refer to this exchange with CYFD HR person Patty Brookins.

    In the online ADOSH investigation documents folder…

    Dropbox / ADOSH Notes and Emails /

    Which is HERE…

    https://www.dropbox.com/sh/20inrene9tcx74a/AABe80KXlut_cz_6Ymv7e9gea/ADOSH%20Notes%20and%20Emails?dl=0

    From PDF page 7 ( out of 10 pages ) from ADOSH ‘Notes’ document
    named “L3419 Notes redacted.pdf”…
    —————————————————————————————
    CYFD NOTES

    Central Yavapai Fire District
    8555 E Yavapai Rd
    Prescott Valley, AZ 86314
    928-772-7711 Fax 928-772-8800

    Paul Nies – Fire Chief
    Scott Bliss- Fire Chief

    I sent an email to Chief Nies today July 29, 2013 at 1303 requesting a roster of personnel assigned to the Yarnell Hill Fire who may have had contact or knowledge of the location of the Granite Mountain Hot Shots on June 30, 2013. I was told by a Peeples Valley Fire Captain that Central Yavapai Fire District had some personnel on Shrine Road on June 30, 2013.

    Central Yavapai Fire District continued;
    I followed up today August 1, 2013 with a telephone call and email to CYPD Human Resources Director Patty Brookins – (928-772-7711 ext 3023). I received a list of personnel employed by Central Yavapai Fire District who were assigned to Yarnell Hill Fire on June 30, 2013.

    Need to interview Field Operations Supervisor Todd Abel and Structure 1 Supervisor Gary Cordes. CYFD Cougan Carothers was assigned to assist Division Zulu Supervisor Rance Marquez in establishing a division break between Division Alpha and Division Zulu.

    Mr. Abel seems to be regularly assigned to wildfires in the west and may not be readily available to be interviewed. Mr. Abel was subsequently interviewed on August 22, 2013. Mr. Cordes is scheduled to be interviewed on September 11, 2013 at 1100.
    —————————————————————————————

    These (typed) ‘summary notes’ never say any additional attempts were made to interview Cougan Carothers, even after he had ( at some point? ) been medically cleared to ‘return to duty’, but the ADOSH PHONE CALL LOGS do. ( See below ).

    Patty Brookins ( of CYFD ) responded to ADOSH investigator Bruce Hanna on August 1, 2013, and her email response says that both Cougan Carothers and Steve Emery were still ( more than a MONTH after the incident ) designated as ‘not fit for duty’ and still undergoing ‘treatment’ for stress related issues related to their participation in the Yarnell Hill Fire.

    She WROTE to Bruce Hanna…

    ———————————————————————————————————
    Chief Carothers has been off duty for medical issues related to this event, and has not yet been medically cleared to return to work. Steve Emery has also been off duty since the event and has not been medically cleared to return to work.

    We anticipate that Emery may be released to return to work sometime next week, and Carothers sometime in the following week. They are currently on administrative leave to seek treatment and to allow them time to recover from the critical stress they experienced with their participation in the recovery operations. All others have returned to their regular duties.
    ———————————————————————————————————

    SIDENOTE: The ADOSH call logs ( See below ) show that Cougan Carothers was NOT declared ‘fit for duty’ in the ‘next week’ timeframe mentioned on August 1, 2013. The ADOSH call logs from August 15, 2013 indicate that even 2 weeks after this email… Cougan Carothers had still not been declared ‘fit for duty’ again.

    Her ( Patty Brookins’ ) complete August 1 email response to Bruce Hanna is reprinted below.

    Notice below that in her response to Bruce Hanna of ADOSH, Ms. Patty Brooks seems to have already ‘interviewed’ each of the listed CYFD employees and is already providing some pretty good details about what each person’s assignments and responsibilities were on June 30, 2013… and what they did ( or did NOT ) do that day.

    Her email leaves no question that in each case ( and for each CYFD employee ), she ( or someone else ) had ALREADY asked them specifically about their ‘interactions’ with either Eric Marsh or Granite Mountain on the day of the incident, either before or after the deployment.

    If those ‘internal interviews’ that she ( or someone else at CYFD ) had already conducted prior to this email were either recorded or have written emails/responses/logs… that CYFD material would appear to have remained ‘internal’ to CYFD and has never seen the light of day.

    The FULL TEXT of Patty Brookins’ email response to ADOSH investigator Bruce Hanna is posted directly below as the first ‘Reply’ to this posting…

    ( Continued next ‘Reply’ )…

    Reply

    • ( Continued from above )…

      ** PATTY BROOKINS’ COMPLETE EMAIL SENT TO ADOSH ( BRUCE HANNA )…

      In the same online ADOSH investigation documents folder linked to above…

      Dropbox / ADOSH Notes and Emails /

      Which is HERE…

      https://www.dropbox.com/sh/20inrene9tcx74a/AABe80KXlut_cz_6Ymv7e9gea/ADOSH%20Notes%20and%20Emails?dl=0

      Filename: “Emails L3419.pdf”

      On PDF page 18 ( of 66 pages )…
      ———————————————————————————————–
      From: Patty Brookins ( xxxxxxxxxxxx ) ( Redacted )
      Sent: Thursday, August 01, 2013 4:09 PM
      To: Hanna, Bruce – OSHA State (AZ-SP)
      Subject: Central Yavapai Fire District

      Mr. Hanna:

      Here is the information you have requested on our employees who were assigned to the Yarnell Hill Fire, with notes about each employee’s position and involvement in the incident on June 30, 2013.

      Todd Abel:
      Joint Operations Chief with Paul Musser. In his capacity as Joint Operations Chief, Captain Abel supervised several Groups and Divisions including Eric Marsh of the Granite Mt. Hotshots. After the blow up event Captain Abel was assigned as the IC for the incident-within-the-incident. He is currently out on another wildland assignment and we are not certain of his return date.

      Gary Cordes:
      Structure Group Supervisor. Chief Cordes had discussions with the Granite Mt. Hotshot crew at the beginning of the shift, on the morning of June 30. We don’t believe he had any contact with them after that.

      Cougan Carothers:
      Strike Team Leader ( trainee ). Chief Carothers did not have contact with the hotshot crew prior to their deaths. He was part of the team that was assigned duties related to preparing for medical treatment and transport operations. Chief Carothers has been off duty for medical issues related to this event, and has not yet been medically cleared to return to work.

      Charlie Reyes:
      Engine Boss of Patrol 59 assigned to Structure Group. He was assigned duties to prepare for medical treatment and transport but returned to structure protection activity after others confirmed the outcome. We don’t believe that Reyes had any contact with the hotshot crew on that day.

      Steve Emery:
      Engine operator ( FF1 ) of Patrol 59. Emery was initially assigned to Structure Group as part of Patrol 59. After the event, Emery was assigned to work with Chief Carothers on duties related to medical treatment and transport operations. He did not have contact with the hotshots prior to their deaths. Emery has also been off duty since the event and has not been medically cleared to return to work.

      Matt McFadden:
      Firefighter II of Patrol 59. McFadden had no interaction at all with the hotshot crew.

      Ryan Ferris:
      Firefighter II of Patrol 59. Ferris also had no interaction at all with the hotshot crew.

      Our understanding is that Chief Cordes and Captain Abel have been interviewed by the the investigative team from Arizona State Forestry Division. We don’t believe that anyone else from our work team has been interviewed.

      Rather than give out their personal contact information, we would ask that you coordinate your interviews through our office. I can be your point of contact for scheduling those interviews.

      As stated above, Captain Abel is currently unavailable due to his wildland assignment, and Chief Carothers and FF Emery are still off duty; however we anticipate that Emery may be released to return to work sometime next week, and Carothers sometime in the following week. They are currently on administrative leave to seek treatment and to allow them time to recover from the critical stress they experienced with their participation in the recovery operations. All others have returned to their regular duties.

      Please let me know if you need anything further. Thank you.

      Patty Brookins
      HR Specialist
      Central Yavapai Fire District
      xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx ( Redacted )
      xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx ( Redacted )
      xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx ( Redacted )
      Office Hours: Tues – Fri 7am to 5pm

      I can think of no more stirring a symbol of man’s humanity to man than a fire engine.
      – Kurt Vonnegut
      ———————————————————————————————–

      So on August 1, 2013 ( a little more than a MONTH after the incident ), CYFD employees Cougan Carothers and Steve Emery had STILL not been declared ‘fit for duty’ because of stress related ‘injuries’ stemming from the Yarnell Hill Fire.

      She said Steve Emery *might* be declared ‘fit for duty’ again the following week… but there was no indication when Cougan Carothers might also be declared ‘fit for duty’.

      The ADOSH PHONE CALL LOGS will be supplied as a ‘Reply’ to this message… and they show that even as late as TWO weeks after this August 1, 2013 email… Cougan Carothers was STILL on ‘medical leave’ and had still not been declared ‘fit for duty’ again.

      Reply

      • ** ADOSH PHONE LOGS PROVE THAT EVEN AS OF AUGUST 15, 2013,
        ** COUGAN CAROTHERS WAS STILL NOT ‘FIT FOR DUTY’.

        An entry in the ADOSH phone call logs also has notes from a conversation with Patty Brookins which confirms that Cougan Carothers was still ‘out on medical leave’ as of August 15, 2013 and would still not be available for an ADOSH interview.

        Patty Brookins said on the phone ( on August 15, 2013 ) that
        (quote) “Cougan Carothers is still out on medical”.

        In the same online ADOSH investigation documents folder linked to above…

        Dropbox / ADOSH Notes and Emails /

        Which is HERE…

        https://www.dropbox.com/sh/20inrene9tcx74a/AABe80KXlut_cz_6Ymv7e9gea/ADOSH%20Notes%20and%20Emails?dl=0

        Filename: “L3419 YFD, Peeples Valley, CYFD field notes redacted.pdf”

        From PDF page 26 ( of 32 pages )
        ———————————————————————————-
        TELEPHONE CONTACT LOG

        Item #, Contact Person, Number Called
        Time, Date, Comments

        August 01, 2013…

        1, CYFD Chief Paul Nies, xxx-xxxx

        10:30 AM, 08/01/13 – Left message with Human Resources (HR) Dept.
        CYFD Administrative Offices – 8-5 PM / Monday – Friday.

        2, Patty Brookins, xxx-xxxx

        12:00 PM, 08/01/13 – Human Resources (HR) Dept. – Agreed to supply list of fire personnel assigned to Yarnell Hill Fire.

        12 days later ( August 15, 2013 )…

        3, Patty Brookins, xxx-xxxx

        10:00 AM, 08/15/13, Left Message regarding interview schedule + people.

        12:45 PM, 08/15/13, Patty returned my call.
        Todd Abel goes on vacation next week but may be available.
        Gary Cordes shoud be available.
        Cougan Carothers is still out on medical.
        Patty will email availability.

        4, Patty Brookins, xxx-xxxx

        03:13 PM, 08/15/13, Left message. Need to know if Gary Cordes
        is available for 08/22/13 interview. No time scheduled yet.

        14 days later ( August 29, 2013 )…

        5, Patty Brookins, xxx-xxxx

        12:12 PM, 08/29/13, ? time from ? Gary Cordes interview.
        May need 2 week ? to ensure WFA could assist to ??

        6 days later ( September 4, 2013 )…

        6, Patty Brookins, xxx-xxxx

        01:30 PM, 09/04/13 – Set up Gary Cordes interview week of Sept 9-12.
        ———————————————————————————-

        So… at 12:45 PM on August 15, 2013, Patty Brookins was still telling ADOSH that (quote) “Cougan Carothers is still out on medical”.

        That means he did NOT ‘return to duty’ in the week following her August 1, 2013 email to Bruce Hanna, as she had originally predicted he might.

        Following this August 15, 2013 communication, ADOSH just went ahead with the CYFD employee(s) Todd Abel and Gary Cordes interview(s) and stopped asking about ‘Cougan Carothers’ or ‘Steve Emery’.

        They also never pursued an interview with CYFD employee ( and Captain of Engine 59 ) Charile Reyes… who Gary Cordes told ADOSH was the one first informed him that Granite Mountain had deployed… when Cordes finally reached the RHR parking lot circa 4:50 PM.

        Cordes also told ADOSH his initial response to Captain Reyes was ( paraphrasing ) “BULLSHIT! They are in that bomb-proof ranch safety zone and they had plenty of time to get there”.

        Captain Reyes then (supposedly) told Cordes….

        “No. They never made it. They got cut off”.

        Reply

    • ** OPS1 TODD ABEL CONFIRMED THAT CYFD EMPLOYEES COUGAN
      ** CAROTHERS AND STEVE EMERY WERE ON THE ‘TEAM’ THAT HAD
      ** TO CONFIRM THE BODY COUNT AT THE DEPLOYMENT SITE.

      OPS1 Todd Abel confirmed ( in his ADOSH interview ) that the two CYFD employees Cougan Carothers and Steve Emery who were placed on ‘stress related medical leave’ immediately after the Yarnell tragedy were, in fact, on that team that had to confirm the body count at the deployment site.

      From Todd Abel’s ADOSH interview on August 22, 2013…

      A = OPS1 Todd Abel
      ———————————————————————————–
      2335 A: When – when the fire hit the – his trigger point. Um, and he bailed off and, uh,
      2336 it – so we – we were able to get a manifest from – from, uh, Brandan. Um, and
      2337 at the same time Jason Klasen calls me on my phone, gives me an address to
      2338 Helms’ place. Myself, Dean Stewart, Cougan Carothers and Steve Emery
      2339 start working out way back in here to go tie in with these guys. Um,
      2340 obviously, you can imagine it’s pretty chaotic in there. We get through and,
      2341 uh, go out to the ranch. Walk out there, you know, once again confirm that
      2342 we had 19.
      ———————————————————————————–

      So OPS1 Todd Abel confirmed to ADOSH that after the bodies were found, he and 3 others ( Abel’s former engine-mate and close friend Dean Stewart, CYFD employee Cougan Carothers and CYFD employee Steve Emery ) were then the first ones out there at the deployment site ( after Eric Tarr, Brian Frisby, Trueheart Brown, Jason Clawson, Aaron Hulburd and KC ‘Bucky’ Yowell ) to SEE and CONFIRM the body count.

      That means Cougan Carothers and Steve Emery definitely saw ‘all there was to see’ that day… and might have even been the ones who were told to put the ‘tarps’ over ALL the bodies which the YCSO detectives would then have to remove when they arrived around dawn the next morning.

      Reply

  17. many times I have tried to come to investigative media to some libraries blocked access to the site and even at home base I got 502 error messages…finally able to get here…I wanted to since I am not caving with Sonny right now share to all about the whole journey from the get go to being on the Yarnell hill…

    Long before I met Tex Harold Eldon Gilligan (Sonny)—I had a dream.

    jotted it here http://www.zazzle.com/texes_cousin_big_hat_rex_postcard-239922776172529398

    Product ID: 239922776172529398
    Created on: 6/6/2011 8:25 PM
    Texe’s Cousin…bIg hAt rEx Postcard
    description:
    backyard pals…our regal horned toad lizards playing around as I water…why I name them the way I do has to do with my hiking pals as well as dreams and recently I dreamnt I’d meet a man name Texe which means “those who are friends” so maybe it means I will meet more friends…that would be nice after all my losses…

    ———————————————————-
    All Summer 2011 Kat in Wickenburg—school teacher wanted me to look at her senior match profile…I kept saying “not interested”…”why not meet someone IN PERSON”…”aren’t you married?”…
    All along I was not interested until 8/17/11 at 16:48 I began to try to see her profiles but it required a log in…it took me many hours to send my license to verify me and create the log in necessities (DesertxWalker) to review her page and SonnyG was one…it was such a unique profile that to me assessing it I thought he is looking for a camp style gal or a woman seeking papers from another country…I joked about it. I like to talk history/numismatics/gunsmithing/reloading/ballistics/nancy drew/hardy boys kinda gal and he liked to talk about his life/Indian artifacts/Sitchen and we always talked about his hikes west of the Grand Canyon and mine here in Congress area. He said I was really ignorant. The drifts and mines I went to that in September 2011 he was sending me dangerous cave pamphlets and that I should never go in them alone.
    —————————————————-
    Tue, Aug 23, 2011 at 19:01 Sonny’s first message 🙂 and my first one was 8/23 16:49…
    I met my seniormatch penpal and slept there west of the Grand Canyon from 9/28-10/1/11 and he is a perfect genuine classy guy…and I really had a wonderful time learning about his rocks and just loved being there…meeting all the folks he sees ever so often…good man, good friends and loved the dogs/area…
    met on senior match 8/23 and very unlike me.
    met in person 9/28-10/1
    met again 10/3-10/8
    met and still known since 10/12/11 pioneering all over Arizona, New Mexico, Utah, Nevada—caves and all—
    ———————————————————–
    I KNOW where alot of Army and Indian artifacts are but I leave them there—when I told two people— Kenny Slomkowski of Congress Arizona was one and he said he did not take the very unique Indian hatchet so it sucked someone I trusted on the trails that knew about it took it but denied it…
    I learned I had to limit how I described the terrain as I hiked people and I learned I could not be PURE and that is pretty much how the I M page has transitioned for me yet Dale1 likes to take stabs that I thought the hikers like to tell it all…be pure… much resembles dialect of an email I got Tue, May 26, 2015 at 11:35 AM where one of our old bloggers on IM stated to me”it is not fair and pure for you not to.” and the word pure is used alot from this old blogger almost in a sliced way versus a person wanting to find the truth on the cell records as originally asked from this blogger what the hikers would like to see from this all way back in November 2013…
    ——————————————————————-
    I thought we lived in a world that was BIG BROTHER and nothing is sacred and secretive anymore—besides the secretive ways of the board how they publicly share the minutes to the Yarnell Memorial in their unlawful ways yet getting away with it or letting the public know where and when these meetings are seems unjust—and to label the area they died sacred when others have died in that very area before the 19 as well as many have fallen over time and their area as Marti Reed shared her brother’s story are not restricted like this 320 acres yet we can pick and choose who can go to the area like Holly Neill can but Gary Olsen—nah, he can wait for the GRAND OPENING—
    ———————————————————————
    I have done some genius actions in my time but the aftermath of the YHF has not been one…and even the times I came up with something I was the host channeling in from an unknown…I was born at St Joseph’s in Phoenix…I lived on Van Buren street and through the years made my way around all of Phoenix (N,S,W,E)…I was in kindergarten and made my “circus family” way to the class room always out with nature vs sitting in the classroom…my extremely giant father from Staten Island goes to the principal’s office saying “I heard you are calling my daughter retarded” in a very THICK NY accent…and the principal with wooping board paddle hanging on wall behind stated “No, I called you in because she has been tardy”…”your daughter seems to think the classroom is the outdoors”…
    REALITY CHECK…after elementary, junior high, hs and some college because I dropped out in NJ of college to do culinary and then head back to Arizona…MY HOME IS THE DESERT not a subdivision way the world wants to conform us…I can unwind there. Sonny will always be the ideal person on the trails for my health but his way to unwind= wine…he said Jesus turned water into wine…
    “I am what I am”…
    my father always said the above drunk…yet I say it here today sober that I am what I am…nothing special yet at least I don’t journey along saying something I am not…to GAIN…or pretend to be something else…I am simple ol housewife Joy…
    ———————————————————–
    Also there is some who want to have a view that I am into necromancy and that is sad to take what I say on this page and create that dramatic image yet its not reality. Just because I do not have any training in WHO IS THE AUDIENCE like an author or writer or journalist would…I share ME…but remember in the end I am not making a book or movie but the ones talking about me like such ARE…
    what happen to me…felt much like how Saul in the bible set up a woman.
    Because I had a request from another—I set appt up–than I got the reply that became world wide known—yet what a reply when this person does not even know me and my background but I can state there was no bad intentions just helping others reach clarity…Modern America are not really shocked much anymore but in the day (middle ages) I can see my help with no bad intentions could of had me burned at the stake…

    People of religion background…I am at bible studies this week and Sonny who has a bathide in religion/psychology/geology told me alot in the start of us knowing each other about ET/UFO and Sitchin stuff (I was skeptic before going into these caves on the topic) and how he was born to be a miner for the Gods. He loves mining. So Sonny mentions eloihm. Yet from my view wouldn’t it be PERCEPTION of such being you have this ELOIHM (plural noun) accompanying a singular verb.
    YOU= ME
    YOU= YOU
    singular
    yet YOU can mean plural like YOU out there—the audience of more than one.
    I also think alot of the aftermath of the YHF is simply perception…like where you sitting at in all this…

    ———————————————————–
    So we know 30% maybe on Gita Plateau and not much on the rest–right—why? with all our technology?
    That is how I sum up the YHF…why with all our technology couldn’t investigators GRAB those cell records to piece this as well as the ALIVE missing elements speaking up—why make a narrative when such a pattern of lives being lost and homes being burnt…
    Also how many of the wildfires are just happening to be near caves…hmmm…
    ————————————————————-
    How is it modern world; every action is being recorded yet with a stroke of a key we can research any topic; unlimited access…yet we cannot have the missing elements speak up and just hope for a leak some way some day and reason I keep gathering new accounts.
    ————————————————————-
    I have been in all kinds of caves…and in that…you begin to wonder about the things you eyewitness in these caves…especially the vertical cliff ones…
    ———————————————————–
    Sonny can you come on here and write about the aliens you met long ago in New Mexico; what town was it?
    —2-3ft tall with military helmets; similiar to nazi helmets—faces hard to see at dusk carrying weapons.
    you could not get close; 40-50 yards only. They could go through things much like a hologram.
    Explain the way they induced your mind, Sonny.
    he took a lie detector test and JUST WEEKS before the 19 men died Paramount CBS pictures interviewed us June 2013 on the topic of aliens and the photos I captured and what Sonny saw…
    ————–
    than let’s mention this topic on caves…an old prospector who visited my town from Montana every snowbird season would pick up desert trinkets eventually almost putting together a full pottery pot except missed a few missing pieces…I followed a family of owls one day to a vertical cliff cave miles away from where the old man got his pieces and in that cave I saw pieces and alerted him because I leave that stuff there—he eventually had someone go get them and it was the missing pieces—
    I feel by ME keeping at gathering information on YHF that maybe some day the right account will complete the puzzle and so even though Sonny thinks there is nothing else to do…we did our part…I feel it should be EVERYONES part to leave the door wide open.
    ————————-
    Sonny I wish you can come on here and share about the alien rock/meteorites you had me drive VERY FAR to make sure noone discovers them…what are they? why did you buy a $2,000 or so microscope just to analyze it and also had paid top mineralogists to examine it.
    Sonny KNOWS his shit and his minerals and was known as the Cashes Clay of mining…
    he was top paid in his field.
    I really want to go back there Sonny and talk about that and what was the rock formation in the mine near where the men died…
    ———————————————–
    At Bashas last night when I was with Sonny—went to Wickenburg for animals and feed—
    we bumped into a person near Helms and asked:

    QUESTIONS ASKED TO SOMEONE ON Deer Track/Ridgeway area:

    my question: were you home that weekend of the Yarnell fire?

    reply: i was home,

    my question: were you asked to evacuate?

    reply: not officially, blow horns. mumbling man. atvs. no knock on doors and way too late for even them being on that road alerting them for the homes were on fire when this was happening. This person knows alot more than shared and has probably the best account to date but wants to move away and remain anonymous.

    did any part of your area burn?

    all of it and then some.

    Did you see any fire people/vehicles?

    yes. little too late.

    Can I share any answers with investigators…the information given to me publicly or privately?

    don’t even bother…they don’t care.

    Reply

  18. a lady told me yesterday at Congress grocery—” I realize you have heard warnings similar to this one before, but this must be taken seriously! This information should NOT be ignored! As we speak, many elements are conspiring and you may not be aware of what they are, or the fact they are DICTATING your life path. However, they are and they do! “—the local lady is one of those crystal woosh Sedona kinds and I replied as I looked around to make sure it was me…it was and I just kept walking disregarding and not acknowledging her statement was meant for or to me and asked when dog groomer was due in as I passed by…

    QUESTIONS ASKED TO SOMEONE ON NORTON WAY
    (you want actual full name of person, she permitted me to state it and I will to main bloggers from day one via email):

    Date: Oct 15, 2015 7:56 AM

    my question: were you home that weekend of the Yarnell fire?

    reply: i was home,

    my question: were you asked to evacuate?

    reply: not officially,

    did any part of your area burn?

    no,

    Did you see any fire people/vehicles on Norton Way?

    no,

    Can I share any answers with investigators…the information given to me publicly or privately?

    yes.

    how is your petition going?

    I collected 5,800 or so sigs. Met with Karen Fann and presented them to her along with educational material regarding trapping. Asked her to sponsor a bill to ban use of these traps anywhere. She was very friendly and interested, but said that to sponsor a bill involved many votes by the Arizona legislature. She will let me know.

    Reply

  19. BOOK UPDATE:

    Thu, Oct 15, 2015 at 12:55 PM
    Hello, everyone. For some of you, it has been a while since we last spoke. For others, it was just a few days ago. Please know that none of you have been forgotten.

    This e-mail is going to close friends of the 19 Granite Mountain Hotshots and a handful of other people who had a big role in helping me with my book. I’ve gotten to meet all of the Hotshots’ families during the more than two years I have spent reporting and writing the book and many of their coworkers and friends. Through each of them — and through each of you — I got to know a lot about fire, weather and each of the 19 men we lost. They have taught me so much — about the meaning of brotherhood, the importance of loyalty, the depth of love and devotion for work and for family. I have no words to express how thankful I am to all of you for sharing your knowledge with me.

    I invite you all to visit my Website, http://www.fernandasantosbooks.com, and sign up to receive the newsletter, which is how I’ll keep folks who become part of the mailing list updated on the book’s release, events and readings. Also, under “Articles,” I’ll file periodical posts containing short lessons I learned while reporting and writing the book. The first one, called “Carrying our loads,” is already up. Please, read and comment. And if you like what you see, tell others to join the mailing list, too. We can also connect through my Facebook page — https://www.facebook.com/FernandaSantosBooks.

    The title of my book is The Fire Line: The Granite Mountain Hotshots and One of the Deadliest Days in American Firefighting. It is scheduled for release in May 2016 by Flatiron Books, a division of Macmillan, North America’s largest book publisher.

    My hope is that in my book, readers will find the same inspiration I have found to make every day matter, but also to ask the right questions when it comes to pushing for changes in the way we fight wildfires. My hope is that through my book, we’ll be able to start a conversation so that the story of the Granite Mountain Hotshots doesn’t forever live as a tragic story only. In this individualistic world we live in — selfish world, perhaps — I want their story to serve as an example of the power of teamwork and unity.

    Always feel free to write to me or call. My cell phone number is (917) 763-9876. If I don’t answer it’s because I’m on assignment — I returned to my regular New York Times duties in June — or because I’m busy with my daughter, Flora, who believes the guys are stars in the sky, just like I do.

    I hope to have you by my side as this journey continues. Because nothing is accomplished by one individual alone. As Eric Marsh and Jesse Steed used to say, we’re only as strong as our weakest link.

    My warmest regards,

    Fernanda.

    Reply

    • Thanks for that ‘heads up’ about this new planned book release, Joy.

      On the surface of it… it sounds like it’s not going to be much different from the Kyle Dickman book.

      I hope that is not the case.

      We shall see.

      Reply

  20. I was all packed…geared to shave my head…went for a long walk and hike today in Congress…ran into alot of faces today…like a Congress reunion…so many asked what’s new and I just said heading west to do my hair—“oh yeah…how?” and I replied probably number four on the man’s clippers—-they thought I was kidding…you see this Fall I really wanted to go to the Heights Church bible study program but Sonny thought it would be a bad idea because Willis and Donut go there…I explained I wanted to go to bible studies not see them— women’s not men’s—I liked the topic I was writing to one of the ladies from there at the Heights church—sounded cool. I would have no way to get there so I let it go—the guy who bought my Suzuki Savage was riding a kid’s bike and I thought where is my bike??? and he replied he had a mishap on it in Santa Maria…”oh my”…when I sold it it was showroom quality…oh well…I needed the funds for medical/labs/medical massages…you got to do what you have to do…well earlier this year one of Arizona’s top lawyers told me to darken my hair and I followed the advice and well I got BANGRY (angry about my bangs done wrong—way wrong) and the hair color was suppose to wash out…going from a level mix of 7.5-9 down to level one…darkest level of hair color–dark black with touch of reds…I could not handle looking in the mirror because I saw no signs of my natural dirty blonde golden locks…I wanted to shave it earlier this year and held off hoping the crap they glazed my hair with would wash out and it didn’t and I did an old school remedy recipe of a little of this and that (baking soda and vitamin c) to lift the color to a level 7 but I went to a no color orange nasty hue and so had to die it a dark blonde…the whole lawyer advice sucked especially when my appeals was denied…and ruined the hair to like straw—really??? So that is why I wanted to just shave it and start fresh…I was offered a master level FREE haircut at the women’s expo last Sunday but my gut did not much connect to any of the ones’ servicing such…anyways I guess slowly it will grow and slowly I will keep cutting 4-5 inches and eventually it will be okay…back to the kid that had bought my bike…he said he was heading to church…I said on Wed? and he replied bible studies…I said where and he said Grace Bible..>I said with Pastor Dave and he said yes…I told him I tried it a decade ago…hard to get me in a building never the less with that jokester…but who goes and he said…I thought to see ol faces I may so I said I had to go shave my head but maybe stop by…the lady who was going to do it had note on door that Mike needed her…be back later…so I went to dog groomer and she was done for the day but I would of let her shave it because I could not do it myself…and so I went to get a tea and that kid was there and I am telling the owner how I am like the comic strip— family circusing my way to a bible study…not exactly a direct path to it…the owner said “do you believe Joy?” and I explained I use to be a huge part in church…platformed in singing…taught bible studies and did workshops and seminars but when I kept losing people I loved and kept seeing less individualism and more system…I got lost…or never had a sound deeply rooted system…and it seem I carried a scale of judgement on the profess/confess ones…I always loved I Corinthians 13 and Romans 12…
    well anyways…I finally end up at the church—late of course—and warmly welcomed and great to see ol’ familiar faces and pastor Dave was “right on”…he made a joke the building was still standing after I got in because he did further heavier duty framing/construction since my last visit…and another time he said in the beginning it was Adam and Eve and God and I whispered—and the serpent—and he said “sure you would say that Joy”…I am known in Congress as “snake magnet” and snake re locator for free so it made some giggle…when we are going over the books of the bible and he said I am going to name a book and you tell me what is the next book or the before book…he went around the room to everyone…some were not doing so swell…when he got to me..I joked and said my life is rusty and my bible is dusty…doubt I can tell ya…He said what book comes after Exodus? I do not know how but quickly I said Leviticus…I did not know if it just STUCK in my mind because of Debra’s old email but I got it right…I was floored when he recognized how come this lady Joy who has not stepped in this building in ten years got it right but regulars got it wrong…as he said that I thought…There are 66 books in the Bible – 39 in the Old Testament and 27 in the New Testament. All of a sudden I was naming in my head all of them…so my bible is dusty and my life is rusty but my memory is still sharp—GUESS WHAT THE TOPIC WAS ABOUT?
    Good Marriage…first thing I think of is how we all look upon another and judge another for how we lead our lives and marriages like Sonny who can be down right cruel in his comments saying how can any man let his wife go pioneer with another man…I thought well you are safe Sonny…you been married six times…you have a bat hide in religion…you got skills and pure knowledge how to pioneer and I have seizures and pass out and alot of health stuff…so why not…I don’t see those others or you paying my bills so how I live my life is really not anyone’s business or right to judge…
    The funny part of the bible study was not about my marriage to John but to Jesus/God…GOOD MARRIAGE…We (all of us) are the bride of Christ and He is the groom. Seems kinda weird for me—
    when every one claims to be God’s church of so many faiths/beliefs/differ widely in biblical interpretation/practices…it seems impossible for the honest seeker of truth to investigate the claims of each one. I read Revelation 12 and 14. I read Revelation 12:1-17 before beginning my journey of discovery into these transforming truths. Simple Formulas. It was a longer bible studies than I thought…but reflecting back I noticed NOT ONCE during it did I think of the YHF…I was focused and paying attention…it felt good…yet I got a call from Sonny couple times during the studies and I usually take his calls due to his health but I found myself saying Lord I am going to let Sonny know I will call immediately after this…seem like pastor had diarrhea of the mouth as it seem to go on but I can tell you I wanted to hear more…every book has a dating mechanism…a time line…and really people should not just READ investigative media…they should come on here and publicly THANK each and everyone of us for never giving up on these men and all affected by the YHF…and trying to give the proper time line and openly without fear go over and over and discuss and disagree but we are doing PUBLIC not private and with most coming here with full names…by the way sorry Dale1…if I seem to give ya hard time and not others who do not have full name on IM…it is just I have a lack of trust on a few old bloggers and I just want to make sure you were not them…John Dougherty really deserves a thank you too. He really went deep and asked the hard questions in interviews not glazing it to appear how one would like it to be so thank you John Dougherty. I will never understand the begats in the bible…seems more like a good way to fall asleep…Adam at 130 y.o. begat Seth and lived after Seth 800 years…okay, so when you pay attention and realize all the numbers add them together and you have the timeline from creation to flood etc….I reckon that is exactly what we all are doing here on I M…trying to piece the time lines to properly assess the YHF since the SAIT did such a great disservice to all…so maybe in the end after it is all said and done…maybe people reading this get that…sure John MacLean and his research team are doing the same with their selective private not public groups but that is to create a book to make profit but what we have here is a living book never receiving a dime…day to day as we live our lives we still come to the old campfire here…
    we don’t want to come off as we have been labelled as obsessed or conspiracy theorists but we are doing the right thing by trying to gather as much information from every moment to that horrific weekend. Thank you everyone who writes here…more should come here and not JUST READ or SKIM but engage…I think it is time…

    Sometimes people keep information within, either because they are ashamed or really worried how others might react or because they do not want to hurt peoples feelings or may harm a relationship or career…In my first experience of social media here I have to learn sometimes the best reaction is no reaction or no reply—I think we are ready for the missing elements to open up now…

    The area I am restricted from the Weavers—
    if you ever go up there and gaze out on the valley below—-
    What a contrast! One place is the top of the world, the other the bottom. One place is perpetually cool, the other relentlessly hot. I miss the Weavers…I guess that is why I get frustrated at times…because I do miss them and what it has to offer…

    In my transitioning this past week, I have slept pretty good but not yet rested…been letting locals know of http://ycsoaz.sheltertrack.com/Public/Default.aspx where you really SHOULD register your pet because the locals stories I am hearing…I do not want to get into it but new system they are engaging in…another right and freedom robbed of us…when have you ever heard that the police dept needs to know how many pets you own…or register a cat???

    good night.

    Reply

  21. i can send you email joy wass your addy???….. you can email me the picturs an i can try todo a dropboxss if someeone else wont….//.

    Reply

    • dale1 says

      October 13, 2015 at 3:41 pm

      i can send you email joy wass your addy???…JUST CALL THAT NUMBER AND LEAVE ME AN ADDY AND I WILL SEND YOU THE EMAILS—.. you can email me the picturs an i can try todo a dropboxss if someeone else wont….//.THAT WOULD BE FINE. WITH MY TRANSITIONING OFF THE TRAILS I WILL NOT POST MY ADDY HERE.

      Reply

        • I use current cell to retrieve messages off the 480 cell and again this goes for anyone I do not know…I am not going to email ya without a voice saying this is my email addy so it is my kinda captcha security—and what you are looking to receive via email…

          plus folks who diss me as you have sided for another when not listening or knowing all the sides and you seem to be partial to just Holly—tell me why should I make the effort for you just because you posted some email addy for the world.

          I will think on it—

          Reply

          • sharing you pics or only with some?? hikers wanted all out ther… its ok….donnot email me if ya donnot want….. i donnt diss on u. not me style. dunno you or holley…,,,.. okkk??//

            Reply

            • dale1 says

              October 13, 2015 at 5:42 pm

              sharing you picsSURE—CALL OR STOP BY—MY ONLINE LIFE IS DIFFERENT THAN IN PERSON.

              or only with some?? ANYONE I SENT IT TO CAN SEE YOUR EMAIL AND DO IT

              hikers wanted all out ther
              NO IF SOMEONE SAYS SOMETHING…FOLLOW THROUGH IS ALL…AND I DID NOT SAY POST ADDY TO WORLD—I SAID CALL…I AM DONE WITH OTHERS NOT SHARING WHO THEY R TO ME YET EXPECT ME TO INCLUDE THEM… its ok…GLAD ITS OK.donnot email me if ya donnot wantEXACTLY…GIVE ME A VOICEMAIL WITH VERBAL REQUEST SO I KNOW YOU ARE NOT OLD TIME BLOGGERS UNDER NEW ID….. i donnt diss on u. YOU HAVE BEEN PARTIALnot me style. I CAN UNDERSTAND THAT YET WANNA ENGAGE ON FIRE THAN TALK TO ME FIRST NOT CYBER TALK—dunno you or holley…,,,..SHE IS A FINE LADY; HOLLY…ME; I AM HARD HEADED STUBBORN …TALK IN CIRCLES…RIDDLES AND GETTING READY TO PACK FOR HOLLYWOOD TO SEE OL PALS TO SHAVE MY HEAD AND HAVE ANOTHER KICK ASS DAY LIKE SUNDAY AND TRYING TO FIND A CERTAIN EMAIL SO I KNOW THE REGULARS AND WELL THEY TALKED ABOUT ANNE MARIE AND I ALERTED HER AND SHE REPLIED… okkk??//SWELL

              Reply

              • I hope you understand I am not trying to omit you—just need a voice since you cannot be on here with a full name so I know you are not an ol’ blogger under new id—if you cannot provide that than to me why out of my life and day and time take the effort for you if you cannot for me—ANYONE can quickly go make up an email addy just to receive an email—the main bloggers pretty much know another and communicate with another outside I M—so we all know each others ups and downs—
                I prefer my email addy not to be out right now after an Arizona State prosecutor fair warned me of a killer being let loose and for me to lay low…I have to explain this to Sonny and to you all—Marti knows what I mean—it seems just so darn easy to throw in the towel…walk away…Sonny seems to think as well as Grant Scott McKee—OK SO WHAT IF YOU PIECE THE PUZZLE—it does not bring back these men or his son or the homes and the pets and wildlife—and as Sonny said it for damn sure is not going to change the way they fight wildfires—Sonny really clicks with Gary’s way of thinking—I have to have HOPE because I smelled the death on those Weavers and the osha men and Eric Tarr and others understand what I am saying here…these men deserve the curtains open on all areas of this fire…they do deserve it.

                Reply

  22. I seriously could scream at the sadness of this here YHF aftermath and the lack of cooperation from the very people who fought on that fire…19 men died and so many homeowners lives changed too…so many lives changed…mine has…

    My focus today is to go through files ONLY…not even one ounce of me wants a visit or to visit anyone…
    seems every single time locals here I am off the trails with Sonny they have to call or text and tell me his life and not interested—or they want to visit or me visit and well I need some time to finally get these photos public that I have seen over time—
    I know locals read I M so I m publicly asking you all to live YOUR life and leave me out of the loop especially what Sonny is up to—
    Thank You.

    Reply

    • Joy-

      “the lack of cooperation from the very people who fought on that fire”

      That’s why I don’t think Cougan Carothers will cooperate with either you or us. He refused to cooperate with the ADOSH Investigation.

      They all stand safely and staunchly behind the Red Fire Wall.

      Reply

  23. joy where the link for dropbox pictures from annemarie…. i not seen them r they heer???…/// thankks///..
    r there 3 pictures by her annemarie?>…

    Reply

    • I have not led an organized online life for 4+ years now because of being on the trails-
      pioneering and caving and whatever else you can label it—
      I learned to dropbox from Marti and John D. earlier this year
      I am not spending the time today to do that because I am really trying to find six homeowners firefighter vehicle photos that I never had chance to email or post because of being on trails with Sonny so that is my focus than Norton Way but the main bloggers from the start I did forward the emails—so they can if they choose to do so—

      joy a. collura says

      October 13, 2015 at 1:16 pm

      resending you all the fire pics of Anna Marie sends me to your emails so check your boxes—
      Tue, Oct 13, 2015 at 1:13 PM she sent an email and I will forward it.
      To those who want the photos—if Sonny keeps shutting me off like he is and I am home not on trails than I got the time to do that—just not sure if I have the mifi—at 90% until 18th—

      Reply

      • joy whos the main bloggers..///?? being honest nobdody put the annemaire pics online not sharing themmmm you do not like when holly Neel withholds intel from you but ur not sharing annemarie pictures here ??….,,,/ why

        Reply

        • dale1 says

          October 13, 2015 at 2:20 pm

          joy whos the main bloggers..///??BETTER QUESTION- WHO ARE YOU?

          GO BACK TO JULY 2013 AND READ EACH CHAPTER AND SEE WHO HAS BEEN WRITING—I AM NOT DOING THE RESEARCH FOR YOU TO ANSWER YOU WHO ARE THE MAIN ONES—

          being honest nobdody put the annemaire pics online AND REALLY TODAY I AM NOT GOING TO ENGAGE WITH YOU BECAUSE AGAIN YOU ARE DALE1—CALL ME (480) 280-5813 AND LEAVE ME A WAY TO REACH YOU AND THAN WE CAN TALK ON GETTING YOU FIXED UP ON YOUR OWN SET OF EMAILS BUT OF ALL THE FREAKING PEOPLE ON TOPIC OF POSTING PHOTOS I DO NOT HAVE TO DO SHIT—I HAVE A COURT ORDER OVER ME SO I AM LIMITED—MY NAME IS OUT THERE AS THE EYEWITNESS AND SO MUCH MORE—WHERE IS YOUR NAME? DALE FREAKING ONE.

          not sharing themmmm DUH…I JUST DID…MANY PEOPLE HAVE IT—JUST CALL ME AND GIVE ME A CONTACT WAY TO KNOW WHO YOU ARE—THAN YOU CAN TOO—

          you do not like when holly Neel withholds intel from youYES, THAT IS GOING BACK IN HISTORY WHEN A WOMAN TELLS JOY “YOU GET INFORMATION AND TELL ME RIGHT AWAY AND I WILL DO THE SAME FOR YOU…”…THAT MY FRIEND WAS A ONE WAY ROAD I LED— but ur not sharing annemarie pictures here ??….,,,/ whyWHY SHOULD I…THE RIGHT PEOPLE GOT IT…IF THEY WANT TO SHARE THEY CAN…

          AGAIN I TOLD YOU AWHILE BACK I DON’T HAVE TIME FOR THE ONES WHO DO NOT LET ME KNOW WHO THEY ARE OFFLINE HERE IN SOME FASHION…GOT IT…YOU ARE ON YOUR OWN THERE—GO TO YARNELL AND ASK HER YOURSELF

          Reply

  24. Reply to Marti Reed post on October 13, 2015 at 6:15 am

    >> Marti said…
    >>
    >> Does it matter, that, if you are correct, Gary Cordes was just sitting there on the
    >> side of 89, watching the fire, when he says he was evacuating people from that
    >> neighborhood just northeast of Shrine Road?

    Yep. Sure does.

    It means there *might* be just one more thing that is a little ‘wonky’ with SPGS1 Cary Cordes’ testimony to investigators.

    However… if we accept ( for just a moment, anyway ) that Gary Cordes WAS driving that CYFD pickup WITH the camper top… then both of the following things would appear to be true…

    At 4:16 PM… he was still sitting way up there at that ‘observation’ point north of Yarnell, at that concrete driveway on the WEST side of Highway 89.

    At 4:45 PM ( time confirmed now by Anna Marie Lechner herself? ) Anna Marie Lechner photographed him just 1 block south of where Shrine Road meets Highway 89, heading SOUTH and ( apparently ) straight for the Ranch House Restaurant… where that same vehicle would then appear in the Russ Reason video circa 4:50 – 5:00 PM.

    So that leaves about 29 minutes ( call it a half-hour ) between 4:16 PM and 4:45 PM when we still can’t be sure WHERE he was.

    If he left that ‘observation point’ up there north of Yarnell right after that video ended… then suppose he DID have time in that half-hour to pull into the Norton Way area and be shouting out the window of the truck for people to evacuate… but not enough time for much more than that.

    If he didn’t leave that ‘observation point’ right after that video… I would say it becomes doubtful he had the time to do those other things he told investigators he did in the Norton Way area.

    We would also know now that Gary Cordes must have been IN his vehicle for pretty much ALL of that critical radio traffic that was about to happen between 4:16 PM and 4:45 PM… including all the captures of Cordes himself talking on the radio in those crucial 29 minutes and telling Blue Ridge to “Get out to the highway” and then him telling Tyson Esquibel to (paraphrasing) “Send some engines to the Boulder Springs Ranch and make sure Granite Mountain gets out of there safely”… and all the other things we hear Cordes saying in that 29 minute timeframe.

    PS: If we are also accepting ( just for a moment, anyway? ) that Cordes WAS driving the ‘camper top’ puppy… then I believe that is Cordes seen in the Russ Reason video standing near that same vehicle and near the porch of the Ranch House Restaurant in his WHITE Helment, holding his radio… and just sort of STARING off to the WEST towards what we now know was the ‘deployment site’ area.

    If Anna Marie Lechner really did capture him heading south on 89 at 4:45 PM… and that really is him standing near the same vehicle in the Russ Reason video… then that means he had basically just arrived there and this ‘staring out towards the deployment’ site was one of the first things he did when he got there.

    Cordes says Captain Reyes is the one who told him Granite Mountain had actually deployed… and Cordes’ first reaction was “BULLSHIT… they are in that bomb-proof safety zone and they had plenty of time to get there”. Captain Reyes then told him “No… they never made it. They got cut off”…

    But Cordes has still never said exactly WHEN Captain Reyes ( of Engine 59 ) told him that.

    If we accept the ‘timing’ above… then it appears that happened just moments before the Russ Reason video began… and that might be why Cordes seems to just be standing there STARING off to the WEST.

    Reply

    • Reply to Marti Reed post on October 13, 2015 at 6:15 am

      >> Marti said…
      >>
      >> Does it matter, that, if you are correct, Gary Cordes was just sitting there on the
      >> side of 89, watching the fire, when he says he was evacuating people from that
      >> neighborhood just northeast of Shrine Road?

      Yep. Sure does.

      It means there *might* be just one more thing that is a little ‘wonky’ with SPGS1 Cary Cordes’ testimony to investigators.

      REPLY;
      I AGREE WITH WWTKTT BECAUSE OF HOMEOWNERS TELLING ME THEIR ACCOUNTS—IT DOES NOT MATCH UP—YOU ARE RIGHT AND I WROTE ABOUT THAT AWHILE BACK

      Reply

    • So that leaves about 29 minutes ( call it a half-hour ) between 4:16 PM and 4:45 PM when we still can’t be sure WHERE he was.

      IN SOME ACCOUNTS PEOPLE STATED THEY SAW HIM AT THE OLD BANK AREA WHICH IS NOW THE FIRE DEPT OFFICE

      Reply

      • resending you all the fire pics of Anna Marie sends me to your emails so check your boxes—
        Tue, Oct 13, 2015 at 1:13 PM she sent an email and I will forward it.
        To those who want the photos—if Sonny keeps shutting me off like he is and I am home not on trails than I got the time to do that—just not sure if I have the mifi—at 90% until 18th—

        Reply

    • If he left that ‘observation point’ up there north of Yarnell right after that video ended… then suppose he DID have time in that half-hour to pull into the Norton Way area and be shouting out the window of the truck for people to evacuate… but not enough time for much more than that.

      REPLY—I WAS GOING TO GO TO YARNELL BUT HAD REAL BAD SPELL THIS AM BUT WWTKTT—I WILL GET BACK TO YOU ON THIS—I WILL BRING GARY CORDES PHOTO TO NORTON WAY BECAUSE I KNOW MANY ON THE STREET—THE STRANGE PART IS NOONE HAS EVER CONTACTED CHUCK TIDEY AND ASKED HIM…HIS PUBLIC EMAIL IS [email protected]…MAYBE IF YOU ASK HIM DIRECT IF GARY WAS STATIONED AT CHUCK’S HOME…CHUCK IS ON THE CHAMBER OF COMMERCE AND HAS SERIOUS HEALTH CONCERNS AND IS ON “BOTH” MEMORIAL BOARDS. HE ALSO IS CAPTURED IN ALOT OF HOMEOWNERS PHOTOS INCLUDING MY OWN SET AND YET HE TOLD SONNY STUFF AT THE LEGION ONE TIME SO I ALWAYS FELT HOW COME HE IS NOT IN THE SAIR…SEEMS LIKE A PRETTY IMPORTANT ACCOUNT BEING N AIR GUY AND ALL…I THINK HE COULD HELP ANSWER SOME QUESTIONS IF ANYONE WAS LOCATED AT HIS HOME AT THE TIME—THEY SOLD BUT THEY USE TO LIVE HERE:

      http://www.zillow.com/homedetails/16695-W-Cross-Way-Yarnell-AZ/87933181_zpid/

      I ALSO THINK THE FOLLOWING ADDRESSES AND THEIR ACCOUNT ON NORTON/THE AREA SHOULD BE PART OF THE INVESTIGATION OF YHF:22430 S Hackberry St,
      22076 S Norton Way, 22122 S Norton Way, 16695 W Cross Way,16625 W Cross Way, 16650 W Cross Way, 16482 W Norton Way, 16495 W Norton Way, 22183 S Norton Way, 22196 S Norton Way, 16894 W Shrine Dr, 1014.47+ ACRES OF REX’S, WHERE WE STAYED AFTER THE FIRE AT PHIL’S–21974 S State Route 89, 16366 W Norton Way, 16310 W Norton Way, 16276 W Norton Way, 21845 S State Route 89, 16049 W Allen Way, 22118 S White Ln, 17070 W West Way, 22611 S Lakewood Dr, 22425 S Sesame St,22622 S Sesame St , 17601 W Boulder Springs Trl , 22766 S Ridgeway, 17564 W Deertrack Dr, 17578 W Deertrack Dr,22783 S Ridgeway ETC…

      Reply

    • So I’m letting all the marbles in my head re-organize themselves. Mostly based on Todd Abel’s narrative. That helps, thank you. Honestly, I had nothing solid to counter my wondering (which I posted periodically) why TF Cougan Carothers was up there when Joy took those photos (to which I never got any response). And I had several things solidifying (both images and testimony) Rance and Cougan’s coziness (and possible mutual protection also), instead.

      There have been two key questions I have woven through my thinking since June.

      1. Who, leading up to and around 4:27 would have been “dis-engaged” enough with the fire to have been the one who drove Cory Ball to the Yarnell Fire Department to pick up the ATV? I really thought through Cordes (my first “suspect” all things considered), and decided, nah, he was too busy at the Norton Way area. I had him, in my head, there from probably about 4:10 ish until, as he said, he headed down to RHR to tie in with his crew and do a check (while not knowing about the deployment). And that’s why I figured he also hadn’t heard the MayDay convo mostly everybody else heard in some form or another. I just figured he was too focused on what he was doing to have been paying all that much attention to the chaos on the radio (except for, probably his tac channel with his crew).

      2. And then after The Plan™ emerged, I started focusing on who would have been, again, not so engaged with the fire specifically, and, thus freer (or whatever) to have been listening to and maybe even participating in those critical convos that happened at 4:16 (including the ones leading up to “waz yo status”) and 4:27.

      So I’ve been filtering a LOT of stuff through those two lenses. Because, I agree that THAT realm is CRITICALLY important.

      Even to the point of trying to determine if Ed K. might have come from the south. Which I don’t think is the case. Because he was someone who was, for the most part, wandering around most of the day watching and listening, [probably partly because there were fire-fighters from Wickenburg on the fire). So that’s the kind of people/stuff I’ve been focusing on.

      And also Clawson and Hulburg, who cross the Air2Air cam at 4:16, either of whom might actually be “on a radio.”

      And also Tony Sciacca, who was at that time trying to orient himself and gather info, and I had been thinking it was almost a no-brainer that it might have been him in the convo with Bravo 33 that led up to “waz yo status.” It would definitely have been in his scope to have been wondering who was where and under what conditions at that point in time. And the video, once i realized that was probably him standing there, started underscoring that line of thinking in my brain.

      Because I DON’T have time to focus on every little thing. Actually, I don’t have time, currently, to even be focused on much of any of this, but obviously I”m addicted.

      And, now I’m working on shifting a bunch of things around in my head.

      I have a question. Since I don’t have the Reason video on my computer, since I haven’t had time during all of this to schlep my hard drives over to my new/old house, do you think the guy that you think is Gary Cordes in the video is the same guy in all the Story photos hanging out with Cougan?

      Also, a new question has popped into my head, regarding those “later” photos in/around the RHR parking lot. It may just be my jumbled brain.
      And my lack of access to my timelines. (which I am sure are not even remotely as good as yours to begin with).

      Do you know how long Brian Frisby stayed over at the Deployment Site/Boulder Springs Ranch area before he came back to the RHR parking lot (based on something other than the photos we’re looking at)? The Official Notice of the Fatalities went out at 6:35 pm.

      And yes, I agree with you that the “photo under consideration” can sync with the Swartz photo. And I think Bob is incorrect in his assessment just downstream. But I also, in the past, and still currently, have thought that “fire” might mean something. Except I thought it might be somebody at the Yarnell Fire Department.

      I think part of the problem is that you (WTKTT) seem to have “resolved” this, way back when, in one configuration, while I “resolved’ it in a different configuration, and I don’t ever remember “us” resolving it at all. And once one of us “resolves” something, we then tend to build on it. And several stories can then get built on top of that resolution (pun intended).

      And, yeah, Joy, I hear yah. My first immediate thought after reading your “lost in the weeds” (paraphrased) comment was, “I just want to run away from this whole thing, screaming!!)

      Why is this fire still burning?????????????????????????????????????????

      Oh, yeah, there was never that official investigation report, that Gov. Brewer ordered, published.

      Reply

      • Oh, and PS. Another little headache/mystery that might “matter” that I’ve hinted at but never said clearly.

        I don’t think Paul Musser was driving the Incident Management Team truck. It doesn’t fit his timeline at all. But the State Fire truck in the middle of the collection, facing towards Marty Cole’s truck, does.

        And, therefore, one of my ongoing “unresolved issues” has all along been, “Who from the Incident Management Team, besides Musser, might have been there at the RHR parking lot???”

        I thought about Byron Kimball. But he may have gotten there a bit later than 5:06 PM, which is when the first of Story’s RHR photos was taken. And he said he had to keep moving his truck.

        I don’t know if the IMT truck is in the Reason video

        And that IMT truck passed the Air2Air camera only once, heading east, at 4:28 PM. Which doesn’t fit at all in Kimball’s timeline, as far as I know.

        So SOMEBODY drove that IMT truck from the Incident Command Post heading east, crossing the Air2Air video camera at 4:28 PM (one minute after the 4;27 Gamble video), and was one of the first people/vehicles on the scene at the RHR parking lot as Tom Story started photographing it. And I have no clue who was driving it.

        Reply

        • And I have never found a photo of Byron Kimball, although I have looked for one plenty of times. So I have no idea what he looks like.

          Reply

        • And also this:

          “CYFD captain retires; new captains sworn in”

          2/26/2013 9:50:00 PM

          “Central Yavapai Fire Captain Dean Steward retired after 25 1/2 years of service and received his retirement axe from CYFD Assistant Chief Scott Bliss at the Central Yavapai Fire District board meeting on Jan. 22.”

          “Courtesy CYFD
          Above, Central Yavapai Fire Captain Dean Steward shows his retirement ax Jan. 22.”

          http://dcourier.com/main.asp?SectionID=1&SubsectionID=1&ArticleID=116470

          Reply

    • WTKTT-

      I have been guessing, all along, that the guy in the shirt that says “Central Yavapai Fire” across the back is Captain Reyes. What do you think?

      Reply

      • Maybe. IIRC that also remains unresolved? Other candidate was that FF in Russ Reason video also seen at the back of Marty Cole’s white pickup near Brendan McDonough? Not the tall FF who was shielding Brendan from the video camera… but the other one on the side of the pickup who made that gesture to Frisby alerting him that the video camera was getting closer?

        I’m on airplanes solid again and no time to reply to everything else below… but regarding your question below about when Frisby and Brown got back to RHR after finding bodies at deployment site… I don’t believe they ever did return to RHR. I believe the BR GPS tracking DAT shows that when they drove back out the way they went in… they tookba LEFT off Shrine road onto Hwy 89 and went straight north in the BR UTV up to the Model Creek School ICP.

        Reply

  25. OK here I go on the discussion of who with the Cajun accent was or was not.
    The first place to look is for a Fire camp Dispatcher.
    Why? I think at the time of the News camera capturing this person calling Granit Mountain was in front of Fire camp. Not at the Resteraunt.
    WTKTT–Said there was a word in the beginning that sounded like Fire- Granit Mountain Wuz yo status. Natural call out —- FIRE TO– GRANIT MOUNTAIN——–
    Short for Fire Camp To—-Some times Granit mountain —Fire Camp’

    I think we discussed earlier that this transmission was picked up with severial different frequencies in one location and that the camera was in front of who ever was talking. It was at the school Fire camp area.
    It could have also been a check in station at the entrance to the Camp with one or more equipment officers monitoring severial Radios or Frequencies.
    So what I am suggesting this was a request by the IC at Fire Camp Dispatch to get a check on Granit Mountain. As Marti says that’s my 2 cents.

    Reply

    • Bob–I think you are way off regarding the photo.

      i agree with WTKTT that it is another version of the group shown in the Swartz photo that was taken at 6:43 PM, at the front of the RHR parking lot, probably by the guy in the red helmet in that photo. It just all lines up.

      By the way, I just found that in the “official timeline,” the “official” time when the fire jumped 89 was 6:39 pm. For whatever that’s worth.

      Reply

      • By the way, I just found that in the “official timeline,” the “official” time when the fire jumped 89 was 6:39 pm. For whatever that’s worth.

        REPLY:
        who narrated it jumped? The videos we saw was no jump but drip torches—curious to know who said it really jumped and what gps coordinates did it land? We saw different…

        Reply

          • Hay Marti the comment on my observation above I was not talking about the Photo but attempting to Identify the Speaker with the Cajon accent.
            Unless I am Missing what you are saying..

            The person with the Dark complexion in the Middle with their back to the Camera I believe is a Native American. He has the build from a few I have known.

            Reply

            • Then I have absolutely no idea what you mean by this:

              “I think at the time of the News camera capturing this person calling Granit Mountain was in front of Fire camp. Not at the Resteraunt.”

              First of all there is no News camera photo capturing a person calling Granite Mountain and second of all the News camera photo under discussion was taken in front of the Ranch House Restaurant parking lot.

              What am I missing?

              Reply

              • Maybe my old brain—-
                But where ever the radio traffic was captured with the voice and recording it sounds like it came from a Radio Operator in Fire Camp based on the Message. I may have got confused on where it was recorded. Sorry

                Reply

  26. WWTKTT:

    Mon, Oct 12, 2015 at 8:03 PM

    Anna Marie Lechner:
    Looked on my computer and could not find any times on the pictures but I believe that was the approximate time.

    Reply

    • Thank you Joy… but what ‘approximate time’ is Anna Marie now referring to?

      My best guess is around 4:45 PM, based on the fire that is seen in the background of her photo and its position when cross-plotted onto Google Earth.

      Is Anna Marie now AGREEING with that estimate of 4:45 PM?

      Reply

      • Followup…

        Anna Marie Lechner seems to be saying she definitely still has those original photos on her computer and she was able to locate the files.

        Is there any chance she could ’email’ the originals to you… and you could forward them to me?

        There is still a chance there is important EXIF timestamp metadata embedded in the photos.

        Sometimes its even just in the original FILENAME(S) themselves… but you have to look carefully to realize that’s what some of those ‘numbers’ are in the filename(s). Depends on the camera/smartphone that was used.

        Reply

  27. **
    ** ANOTHER PHOTO OF COUGAN CAROTHERS

    Replying to my own message from down below… just so it doesn’t get ‘lost in the weeds’ and it ends up with the following TWO links in the same place…

    This all relates more to Gary Olson’s original question somewhere down below about whether the FFs in that ‘WORLDNEWS’ photo taken at the Ranch House Restaurant AFTER the fire had mostly burned through Yarnell were ever fully identified.

    It is still highly likely that is Cougan Carothers in the BLACK Helmet on the left side of that photo, and that that is his no-camper-top CYFD pickup seen in the background of the same photo ( and also on the left of the Swartz photo that was also mentioned. )…

    >> On October 11, 2015 at 12:01 am WTKTT said…
    >>
    >> Actually.. there really is little doubt that that IS Cougan Carothers seen in
    >> the black helmet on the left edge of that WORLDNEWS ‘photo in
    >> question’ that Gary Olson posted a link to.
    >>
    >> There is a CLEAR picture of Cougan Carothers on the Central
    >> Yavapai ‘Senior Staff’ web page… which is here…
    >>
    >> http://www.centralyavapaifire.org/index.cfm?section=15&pagenum=232
    >>
    >> If you compare that photo of Carothers with the FF in the ‘photo in question’
    >> and just imagine >> him not smiling… squinting a little… and with a ‘helmet’
    >> on… there’s not much reason to doubt >> that’s him.
    >>
    >> So that just confirms what I said above.
    >>
    >> That probably IS Cougan Carothers in that ‘photo in question’ and that just
    >> makes it more apparent that that CYFD pickup WITHOUT the campertop
    >> also seen in the same photo(s) is the one that HE was driving that day…
    >>
    >> …and Gary Cordes really was driving the CYFD pickup WITH the campertop.

    Found ANOTHER good ‘full-face-to-the-front’ photo of Cougan Carothers… but this time there’s no need to ‘imagine’ what he looks like with a helmet on.

    Cougan Caruthers does a lot of white-water rescues… and this July, 2010 ‘Prescott Valley Tribune’ article has a full-front photo of him doing just that…

    http://www.pvtrib.com/print.asp?ArticleID=51380&SectionID=1&SubSectionID=1

    The photo is over on the RIGHT side of the article… and Cougan Carothers is wearing the BLACK helmet and looking right at the camera.

    I’m still seeing a ‘facial match’ for that FF on the left side of the photo Gary Olson was asking about.

    Reply

    • WWTKTT said:
      “”” just so it doesn’t get ‘lost in the weeds’ “””

      I am not helping with this …am I…I feel lost in the weeds trying to find the ONE…email…

      Reply

    • Cougan Carothers-
      were you at the wildfire thing at Bucky’s this year—you look too and I mean too familiar—
      dop·pel·gäng·er is what Sonny calls a person who looks like another—

      Reply

      • I think I will figure it out—but this man—I think he has a young girl that looked like me at that age—I will focus to this guy now because I am tired and not sure if he was part of memorial stuff and the anniversaries or saw him on Shrine road or Bucky’s wildland fire academy thing or I am getting a stronger sense I met him mountain biking…is he named after his dad’s name of some kind…I am going to email him and direct him to this site because I was so focused to other areas but its the name that first hit me…and never did before…ever…what is his tie to Gary Cordes…is Cougan the actual guy and not Gary who the homeowners described that day and so there is a reason we got directed to this area—so let’s figure out why…I will email him now and ask him to please peak here to answer some truck questions…
        now, good night.

        Reply

  28. So a little bit downstream I wrote:

    “Marti Reed says OCTOBER 12, 2015 AT 8:26 PM

    Oh, and if you want a REAL challenge, riddle me THIS photograph, taken by David Kadlubowski:

    https://www.dropbox.com/s/qqrhfdabjzjsk5n/RHR.tiff?dl=0

    Or does this not matter?”

    And then I wrote:

    “Marti Reed says OCTOBER 12, 2015 AT 8:28 PM

    I honestly don’t know what matters and what doesn’t matter at this point, any more.”

    ———————————————

    While thinking still about that photo that Joy took of those two fire-fighters up on the peak of that ridge, and that she brought to us with great passion, thinking it was of Eric with someone, and I thought “Nah, that’s probably someone related to Moki Helitack (for various reasons)…….but WHO KNOWS?????)

    So all of a sudden we seem to be fixated on which truck Gary Cordes was driving versus which truck Cougan Carothers was driving, a bit of an argument we are having………..

    ……that WTKTT says is IMPORTANT…………

    ……..triggered by Gary Olsen asking who was in a photograph that included a truck and some fire-fighters (one of whom I still think is Black, but it may be the case that Bob Powers is right that that might not be the case), and WTKTT is now saying someone in that photo is Rance Marquez and then I am saying how and why I totally disagree with that and……..on and on we go, and……I’m finally finding myself asking, via various comments…………..

    How do we determine what matters and is important and what isn’t????

    ——————————————-

    And then “dale1 says OCTOBER 12, 2015 AT 5:24 PM

    in the joy photo 1(40).jpg there’s a 2nd truck so whose truck is that ???? …// the GM sup and chase trucks are there and the dozer but there’s 2 other truks there not just the red one with the camper top.
    who’s truck is that 2nd one….//??”

    Is that worth spending time figuring out???????

    I guess what I am trying to say is that, after almost two years of working on this, because I thought that that little “detail” that I thought was important when nobody else did — that camera sitting in the middle of that deployment site that seemed to be completely invisible to everybody else on the planet — I’m really at a loss as to what, at this point in time, is truly important and what isn’t.

    And how do we determine that?

    Does WTKTT (who thinks the current conversation over which truck is Gary’s and which truck is Cougan’s is really important) determine that?

    Or do I, with my issues about that red-helmeted guy in the RHR parking lot and that IMT truck whose timeline gives me headaches?

    I mean, I really don’t know, at this time, which way to turn. And I have a WHOLE BUNCH of other stuff I should be devoting my time to.

    What do people here think is important and what do they think isn’t?

    Reply

    • “””How do we determine what matters and is important and what isn’t????

      What do people here think is important and what do they think isn’t?”””

      my reply is IT IS ALL IMPORTANT
      because one can read my emails and think what the hell is this now?
      It is trying to find the ONE but seeming to find the others…and thought what if I go all out and share it like it came to me…what if Janelle’s article noone ever knew about because she was asking me for permission has a piece of importance so to me it is all and I mean ALL relevant and important. We will all look at things different or we look at YHF at different phases…what is important to one at this moment ain’t to another…and what if me sharing Willis email gets you to understand him and where he is at…this is really a unity…togetherness thing not HIDE your sources kind of journey…anytime Sonny and I are off the trails you all become more of a direct focus…because I lead a very simple life of helping locals and my hikes and my desert critters-

      Reply

        • December 14 2013 7:53pm

          which Putnam got cc and Johnny Kirkley

          Moses said both Ted Putnam and John Dougherty seem to be really digging into the guts of this thing and Putnam is the best I know.

          I hope more finally join the discussion and gather more info…

          when I wake up I may pause on looking for that ONE email and focus to this Cougan Carothers—you are looking way too familiar—

          good night

          Reply

    • Marti… yes… that photo that Gary Olson ended up a ‘tree’ with a lot of ‘branches’.

      That’s just how it goes here, sometimes.

      What Gary was REALLY wondering is if any of those FFs in that ‘photo in question’ could have been the one making that “Granite Mountain, ??, Wuz yo status rat now?” radio callout at 4:13 PM.

      The answer to THAT basic question is still a resounding ‘maybe’.

      Until we know WHO all these people were having direct communications with Eric Marsh in the time when Mike Dudley and Jim Karels said they could not ‘verify’ that was happening… then these ‘callers’ could have been ANYONE with access to a radio that day.

      In the course of trying to figure out who those FFs were ( that Gary Olson asked about )… the CYFD pickup in the background came into the conversation.

      You were sure it was Gary Cordes’. I realized that I was not.

      I posted the new ‘Anna Marie Lechner’ photo from July that was just another photo of that CYFD truck WITH the camper. You said there was no way that was Gary Cordes’ truck… that it had to be Cougan Carothers.

      I DISAGREED… and all I wanted to do then was simply try to figure out if we could put this ONE SINGLE THING ‘to rest’ and whether I really should have to change all the existing annotations on that ‘Anna Marie Lechner’ video I just posted.

      I’m willing to do that… but only if I SHOULD.

      I still think there is COMPELLING evidence to prove that the CYFD truck WITH the camper top was, in fact, the one that belonged to Gary Cordes.

      But what I was hoping would NOT happen would that the attempt to focus on just answering that one lingering question about a specific thing ( who was driving the puppy with the camper top ) would turn into a ‘shotgun blast’ of “yeah… but what about this… and what about this… and what about this?”

      Well… that’s what happened.

      I think ALL of the “well… what about this, too?” questions during the recent discussion are equally important as the one were just trying to ‘nail down’. I really do.

      I was just hoping we could ‘nail it down’… and then move on to the NEXT one… and not try to solve every single question that started flying around… all at the same time… in this (very) limited WordPress medium.

      Yes… more often than not… every single mystery with this absolute fuster cluck that is/was the Yarnell Hill Fire just seems to bump right up against piles of other ‘unsolved mysteries’ and ‘lingering questions’. due to the absolute piss-poor ‘official’ investigating that was done…

      …but I still think we can solve a lot of these ‘lingering’ mysteries by just FOCUSING… and taking them ONE AT A TIME ( like I was hoping we could do on this campertop-campertop-who-had-the-campertop? thing ).

      Example: I d NOT know WHO all four of those FFs are standing there in that Blue Ridge photo showing the Rance Marquez meeting. I really don’t… and I DO think it’s important to ‘figure that out’… but whether or not that really is the other CYFD truck WITH the camper top there alongside the one that does NOT have a camper top… or whether or not that really IS Gary Cordes standing there on the left side ( I don’t think it is )… is IRRELEVANT to solving the specific question that was on the table if you accept the fact that we might have just PROVED that there was no way Cougan Carothers could have been out in the Sesame area prior to the time Joy took TWO different photos showing the CYFD truck WITH the camper top out in that area.

      Maybe Cordes really did make it out to that ‘get together’ even after he had just given Marquez and Carothers ‘directions’ how to get out there themselves. Maybe Cordes did just drop what he was doing in town and go BACK out there just to be part of that ‘meeting’ between DIVSZ, his assistant, and Frisby and Brown.

      I don’t know. Sure… it’s possible.

      But that still does NEGATE the evidence we have that it was still MOST LIKELY it was Gary Cordes driving the puppy with the campertop and Cougan Carothers driving the one WITHOUT the camper top.

      I still think if there is ANY chance that solving some of these mysteries with the vehicles and ‘who was where’ leads to a better understanding of who MIGHT have been the multiple people communicating directly with Eric Marsh when Mike Dudley and Jim Karels said that was NOT happening…

      …then it’s all worth it.

      So let’s just continue to take things ONE AT A TIME.

      It’s all we can do.

      Reply

      • And in case anyone hasn’t noticed in my own recents posts… I am going to stop referring to ‘the SAIT’ as if it was some dis-embodied entity.

        It wasn’t. There were specific decision being made by specific people that ended up producing the most worthless fire investigation document in the history of Wildland Firefighting ( following the greatest tactical blunder in the history of Wildland Firefighting ).

        USFS employee Mike Dudley and Florida State employee Jim Karels WERE ‘the SAIT. Make no mistake about it.

        THEY decided what it was going to ‘look like’.
        THEY decided to ignore the directive that was given to them by the ‘transfer of authority’ signed by Arizona’s own GOVERNOR and ignore the fact that they were also being paid to produce a standard ‘factual management report’ along with namby-pamby document they DID publish.
        THEY are the ones that decided was was ( and was NOT ) ‘verified’.
        THEY are the ones that decided what was to be reported, and what was to be left totally hidden from view.
        THEY are the ones who decided what they would share with ADOSH.

        Everyone else just ‘worked’ for these two guys.

        I still think some of the fine men and women who did their best to do THEIR jobs working on that report were SHOCKED to see the final one-document-only published result(s)… and maybe one day ( soon? ) we will start hearing from THEM as well.

        Reply

    • Well, since I’m still not certain what’s important or not (partially because I’m still not certain whether or not identifying the fire-fighters in that “photo under consideration” will lead us to determining who is talking in those radio communications under discussion)……

      I spent a chunk of time yesterday reading all the incident reports from 2015 on the Lessons Learned site, to see whether or not the issues regarding the Wildland Urban Interface would show up in them.

      None of them has anything to do with the WUI stuff. It’s all just the same old same old.

      So, for what it’s worth, there’s that.

      Reply

  29. Going back to the beginnings…I will stay on ten more minutes and look under another email addy and see what I can find from July 2013…We emailed him Wednesday, July 17, 2013 4:25 PM and he replied Fri, Jul 19, 2013 at 8:19 AM

    Sonny & Joy, Thank you for your note and your interest. I have forwarded your information to Deputy State Forester Jerry Payne and he will contact you directly. We are very interested in seeing anything that you have to share and appreciate you getting in touch with us. Very best, Jim

    Jim Paxon, Information Branch Chief
    Arizona Game and Fish Department
    5000 West Carefree Highway IEIN
    Phoenix AZ 85086
    Phone 623.236.7226 / Cell 602.920.8053
    [email protected] / Fax 623.236.7903
    http://www.azgfd.gov

    Reply

    • You all can begin to see WHO had the interest and WHERE in July 2013—
      I am going back to try and find the one email but if I see others—you will see it how it unfolded for the hikers—

      On Sun, Jul 21, 2013 at 8:23 PM, Bill at Wildfire Today
      Sonny-

      I saw the article about you guys that appeared in the Daily Courier, and posted an excerpt from it at my web site where I write about wildland fire. I have covered the Yarnell Hill Fire extensively. My article that mentioned you is here:
      h t t p : / / wildfiretoday.c o m/2013/07/21/hikers-photos-of-granite-mountain-19-before-the-tragedy/

      I was very impressed with what you guys did, and it’s great that you’re going to provide some information for the investigation team so they can figure out how to prevent other firefighters from experiencing a similar fate.

      Would it be possible for me to use some of your photos on WildfireToday.com ?

      Reply

      • Thu, Jul 25, 2013 at 9:47 AM
        Hi Joy and Tex,
        I am so glad you survived the fire. It sounds like it was quite the experience. You were the fortunate ones. It is so tragic that the 19 hotshots died. You, probably better than anyone know what they must have gone through.
        Best wishes,
        Peter Morrison
        Executive Director
        Pacific Biodiversity Institute
        PO Box 298
        Winthrop, WA 98862
        [email protected]
        http://www.pacificbio.org
        office phone: 509-996-2490

        Reply

        • Tue, Aug 20, 2013 at 3:12 PM
          Hi Joy and Tex.
          Would tomorrow morning (Wednesday) or Friday morning work for you to hike…? My boss really likes the idea of us going there with you.
          And you can absolutely post the picture of me with both of you!
          Thanks,
          Morgan

          —his video got archived but it was the best story from where we stood because this man took our way too to get a feel of everyone’s position that day even the hikers—yet John D. in his flip flops sandals so relaxed was too cool— laid back. Reminded me of my brother Paul—

          Reply

          • Sun, Aug 25, 2013 at 12:48 PM

            not posting it because it was a private email from Karen Fann to Sonny—
            I am not on it anywhere—but in our YHF hiking files.

            note:
            Karen Fann has been involved with Sonny’s journey coring to evacuation where Don Alexander who died and Sonny got gifts from Karen Fann…she always has been very warm and kind to Sonny.

            Reply

              • Wed, Oct 30, 2013 at 1:13 PM
                Hi Joy,
                I’m one of the editors at FireRescue magazine. One of the investigators for the Yarnell Hill Fire wrote an article for our December issue about the release of the investigation report about the fire, detailing the incident and lessons learned. He put me in touch with Jim Karels, who I contacted about some of the photos in the report. I had specifically asked for the photo of the hotshots hiking, and he let me know that I would need to reach out to you about using the photo. I was wondering if you would be willing to send me the photo that you took of the hotshots that appeared on p. 17 of the report (attached). We would of course credit you for the photo, and we could provide compensation according to our photo rates if you would like (payment depends on how large the photo runs in print).
                Let me know if you need any additional information about how the photo would be used.
                Thank you,

                Janelle Foskett
                Managing Editor
                FireRescue magazine – FirefighterNation.com

                PennWell San Diego
                4180 La Jolla Village Dr. Suite 260
                La Jolla, CA 92037
                858/638-2614

                Reply

                • MY FILES ARE SO UNORGANIZED—it really stinks–I am tired…

                  Fri, Jul 26, 2013 at 8:58 AM

                  Thank you for the information. I know you say lower brush, but I also saw unburned branches that were above my 6′ height that are still remaining, so I estimated 10′ brush and I realize due to my experience that it was in places over 10′ knowing the age of the vegetation is over 40 years old. I hope you can get some peace in the fact that I know they did not go down there to deploy or seek refuge, they went down to protect the ranch. The fire behavior due to outflows from the thunderstorm caused the blow up, wind estimates of gust fro 80-90 mph. I don’t believe the aircraft fanned the flames. This is my opinion based on facts and a 37 years of fire experience. I am sorry for the emotional stress you are going through and wish I could provide you more comfort. DW

                  Darrell Willis, Division Chief
                  Prescott Fire Department
                  333 White Spar Road
                  Prescott, AZ 86303
                  (928)777-1701 Office
                  (928)776-1890 Fax
                  (928)925-7311 Cell
                  Mon, Nov 18, 2013 at 7:39 AM

                  Joy,
                  Thank you for writing back to me and your kind words. Wayne and Holly are special people who are set on finding out the truth. I trust them as well as John Maclean and provided them anything they wanted or needed from me. Thank you for spending time with them and giving them the details you have. I am committed to the truth on this tragedy as I know you are. Again, thank you for the e-mail and your encouraging words. I truly hope God blesses you. DW

                  Darrell Willis, Division Chief
                  Prescott Fire Department
                  333 White Spar Road
                  Prescott, AZ 86303
                  (928)777-1701 Office
                  (928)776-1890 Fax
                  (928)925-7311 Cell

                  Reply

                  • Some off the topic of YHF but in reading and skimming emails and personal ones back and forth—got to say Fall 2013 Holly Neill really had alot of heart and warmth…I may not like that she has hidden sources and speaks public because I want to be educated and I think the world as well…yet I know she has some very solid sources and I can see to this day she is the strength to many—fine lady.

                    Reply

                    • another person where we did not always share the same vision but she too has had alot of heart and is a real neat lady…even though in January asked me the questions she did in regards to a matter that unfolded…it seem like she began to be partial in the matter…I mean why ask me those personal questions about Sonny…was he finally being thought of to pull him in as well???
                      build a better dramatic platform?
                      the lady:
                      Joanna Dodder Nellans
                      reporter/videographer
                      Daily Courier newspaper
                      1958 Commerce Center Circle
                      Prescott, Arizona 86301
                      928-445-3333 ext. 2035
                      [email protected]

                    • Sat, Dec 21, 2013 at 10:45 AM

                      this was when I got the fair warning from Charley Moseley on Holly—and how Charley said Tex reminds Charley of him and he told me that many men will click to Sonny throughout this process because we will he said—so I he said being Joy will always be on the back burner unless its negative than I will be brought to the forefront. He also said:
                      “I have been around a lot of arsonists in my time, and government employees who seemingly wanted their fire to ‘Go Over The Hill’. It is a well known problem and occurrence in the fire fighting business. Last year we had an Oklahoma Firefighter caught red handed when, unknown to him, a locater chip was in his vehicle and showed that the vehicle was at the exact location of 11 new arson fires–when they started. HE IS SERVING TIME IN THE STATE PEN!

                      Please keep up the good work. I think we need to create a medal of freedom, or something to honor the two of you for the outstanding job you have been doing. Without your bona fide info–and pictures–I think the bad guys would have hidden a lot more.

                      Best regards,

                      Mose”

                    • Fri, Dec 20, 2013 at 4:41 PM

                      Thanks you two, and it is so good to hear from you again, and to also see your very astute observations of what is happening. Way more than anyone else, we Firefighters do owe both of you a big debt, both for being up there that day, and your willingness to give voice and photos to what you observed–without trying to hide anything!

                      Yes, I am like you in that with the publication of that OSHA Report, the doors have been really opened up to lots of daylight. And even further, the forced publication of that recording of the last minutes for our Granite Mountain Hotshots, does show that the State of Arizona was really trying to hide information and evidence that might disprove their BS stories. The people in charge of Arizona government are really in for a kicking, I am figuring.

                      Take care, and the very best to both of you, and yours,

                      Mose

                      PS>Please stay tuned for a little warfare in the coming days. We have developed a strong difference of opinion between me and some folk. I think you might enjoy where this is going and learning just who was trying to poke fun at your opinions and observations as to the helicopters rotor wash.

                    • Fri, May 23, 2014 at 9:06 AM

                      I received a copy via email of the SJM July2014 with Holly Neill and let me explain she has very much invested alot of time and love and energy and finances throughout this process and for that I think she should be given respect and my only concern since December 2013 was what Moses shared to us and the behind the scenes talks about the hikers no one was letting us in on…yet she was top notch even the Memorial Anniversary weekend 2014 squeezing me in to hike her friends and Eric Marsh’s best friend and Kodas and Roth family when I saw a part to her I only heard about happening to another but then it happen to me…so to me she became “show me the sources to get to those conclusions” and nothing else meant a thing to me…how the hell could I think such I know after all the kindness…right…well, it was how it unraveled for me…

                    • Funny read this…and funny to listen to what he said about me publicly January 2015…and in a few months I have plenty that God guided in 2015 to share in mid January 2016 to you all—

                      Fri, Nov 21, 2014 at 8:41 AM

                      Thank you for your comments and the pictures. I appreciate the fact that you and Joy continue to seek answers to the reasons our firefighters lost their lives on June 30, 2013 and all you have done to provide information to get to the bottom of the this. I am committed to the truth no matter what the outcome is, that is what the Granite Mountain Interagency Hotshot crew would want as well as Eric Marsh. So others would avoid another tragedy like this. Thank you for including me with your information. DW

                    • Ered Matthew is really a terrific human being.

                      He snail mailed me and asked to speak with us-

                      Sonny and I were in one of our off times but Ered’s visit had me back at the camp with Ered and Sonny—
                      God bless that freaking mess—
                      I was embarrassed but Ered seem to be so down to earth genuine and the two hit it off…

                      thank you Ered for all you did for these families.

                    • also Katie Cornelius— special thank you for all her efforts with the fence in Prescott-

                    • Sat, Dec 27, 2014 at 12:50 PM

                      THIS IS THE DATE where I will in 2016 explain where all the stuff cored to….

                • hey—red flags—I am not seeing alot of emails on the other addy—I will rearrange my schedule this week to stop and see if that other person has it on my hard drive there—
                  hope so because Joanna Dodder was the first to reach out to us and I am not seeing hers or Josh Eells stuff….and Brian Mockenhaupt—I did locate the off the wall one Sonny sent to Alex Jones on July 11 2013 but he can post it…I am only posting ones between hikers…even saw the one he did to air specialists and fbi…
                  Dec 16 2013 7:36am Pyne who is not writing a book and John MacLean tied him into us…hike with fire historian Stephen Pyne was simple but probably him and Kevin Kennedy and Forghani were the ones in the safe zone…and kept it pure and simple in what they did…Pyne was involved with MacLean yet he mentioned Santos too so they must of inquired to him being a fire historian…great man…yet ain’t it WEIRD that a FIRE HISTORIAN could not get the lay of the land from Willis and went to the hikers thru MacLean???? Pyne was neat to speak with…15 seasons on a fire crew at the North Rim and 3 writing fire plans for the National Park Service…than traded his pulaski in for a pencil…neat man and he is in John Dougherty weather channel piece too.

                  Reply

  30. it seems pretty sad a blog has to dissect who was who and what vehicle was being driven by who—this is the kind of shit the world should of seen in SAIR…
    should of listed vehicles with driver.
    It should of listed Paul Morin’s account…
    etc etc etc…

    Reply

  31. in the joy photo 1(40).jpg there’s a 2nd truck so whose truck is that ???? …// the GM sup and chase trucks are there and the dozer but there’s 2 other truks there not just the red one with the camper top.
    who’s truck is that 2nd one….//??

    Reply

    • After looking at and comparing just about every photo of every vehicle on this fire, I have no clue what truck that is. I haven’t seen it anywhere else.

      I also have no clue what the truck in Joy’s photo (22) is.

      There was a lot more going on up there that morning than just Gary Cordes (and/or Cougan Carothers — a Yavapai County Fire District Battalion Chief who was originally dispatched as a Strike Team Leader before he was ever assigned to Rance Marquez) and the dozer.

      Reply

      • PS. Just for reference regarding the timing of these photos.

        I finally decided that the timestamps on these morning photos are about 4 hours early, having synched them with Joy’s photo (27) which shows a Blue Ridge IHC buggy approaching their eventual parking area, which we know (via Cory Ball’s photos) happened around 10:40ish AM.

        Somebody else’s mileage may vary.

        Somewhere around noonish (I’m writing this from my memory banks) Joy’s camera’s timestamps went haywire again in some different way. But pretty much the pre-noon photos seem pretty synched timewise, it’s just that they are timestamped about 4 hours early.

        Reply

    • I find it funny you all can view my pics but I can’t—I gave all the YHF stuff to someone for safe keeping for 2015.

      Reply

      • Yikes. I didn’t know that.

        I have only downloaded the ones I wanted to work with.

        I could easily download the rest of them (the images on JD’s dropbox) and burn them to a CD.

        Reply

    • Reply to dale1 post on October 12, 2015 at 5:24 pm

      >> dale1 said…
      >>
      >> in the joy photo 1(40).jpg there’s a 2nd truck so whose truck is that ???? …
      >> // the GM sup and chase trucks are there and the dozer but there’s 2
      >> other truks there not just the red one with the camper top.
      >> who’s truck is that 2nd one….//?

      It’s never been identified.

      At NO TIME during the ADOSH interviews ( even though they already had all these photos ) did anyone EVER even SHOW any of these photographs to anyone and ASK them who owned some of these vehicles and what the fuck were THEY doing ‘out there’?

      Absolutely astounding.

      And Marti is right… the truck seen in Joy’s photo “1 (22).JPG” has never been identified, either.

      Reply

      • Followup…

        >> WTKTT said…
        >>
        >> Absolutely astounding.

        Actually… when it comes to the ADOSH investigation… it’s not ‘astounding’ that they didn’t do “The Full Monty” and fully investigate this incident… for TWO reasons….

        1) That really wasn’t their job. Jim Karels and Mike Dudley ( and their SAIT employees ) were supposed to have more ‘interest’ in doing the most in-depth investigation possible… and getting the most possible ‘Lessons Learned’ out of it so that these ‘Lessons’ could save lives in the future. Not ADOSH.

        2) There were LIMITS on ADOSH. There are MAXIMUM FINES that they are/were allowed to impose on any single employer… and when it comes to that fuster cluck of a workplace called “The Yarnell Hill Fire”… ADOSH started ‘pegging the meter’ on the ‘maximum fines’ even before they finished doing their first round of interviews.

        So there were a lot of other ‘interviews’ that ADOSH could have done… and a lot of ‘questions’ that ADOSH could have asked… and a lot of ‘mysteries’ that ADOSH could have solved… but once they realized how screwed-up that workplace was and it was ‘pegging the meter’ on the fines they were even allowed ( by law ) to impose… they basically just issued those citations and called it a day.

        That’s all they could do.

        It will still probably take some kind of court case ( but it will only take ONE single court case ) to ever get a lot of the people who were never even interviewed ‘into a room’ to even just get depositions… OR have them look at the existing evidence ( photos, etc. ) to see if THEY can ‘fill in the blanks’… if for no other reason than to at least make sure the historical record for this HISTORIC incident is accurate.

        Reply

  32. **
    ** ARIZONA PARKS ( AND THE YARNELL MEMORIAL BOARD ) HAVE POSTED A PUBLIC
    ** NOTICE SAYING THAT THE PROPOSED PARK IS ‘CLOSED TO THE PUBLIC’.

    The official Arizona State Parks hosted-website that was created for this “Yarnell Memorial Site Board” has always been HERE…

    http://azstateparks.com/committees/Yarnell.html

    Someone has just now ADDED a ‘blurb’ to the very TOP of that online ( PUBLIC ) page which states the following…

    —————————————————————————–
    The Park is currently closed to the public while under development.
    There are no public roads or trail access available.
    —————————————————————————–

    So it looks like news travels fast.

    It’s been confirmed now that the Arizona State Land Department themselves has nothing to do with that land anymore… and that any/all ‘Closure Orders’ they might have had relative to that parcel of land became ‘null and void’ the moment the land was SOLD to someone.

    That ‘someone’ is, of course, the Arizona State Parks Department.

    It also seems to be obvious that someone in the State Land Department became painfully aware recently ( but reading this Forum, perhaps? ) that there is no similar ‘Closure Document’ in effect for the land to replace the one(s) the Land Department had in place.

    So they have just done what I thought they would do.

    Instead of just leaving it as an ‘assumption’ that this new ‘State Park’ is CLOSED to the public until there is some kind of ‘dedication’ ceremony and it is declared officially OPEN… they have chosen to make sure they have posted something PUBLICLY which confirms this ‘default state’.

    In other words… no assumptions necessary… it’s CLOSED because we SAY it’s closed… and it will only be OPEN when we also SAY it’s OPEN.

    And ( as the ‘owners’ of the land )… I don’t think they need any kind of ‘document’ to back that up like the State Land Department was required to have.

    That still doesn’t address the issue, however, of the BOUNDARIES of the land being CLEARLY MARKED. Unless they are ( clearly marked out there )… it would be VERY difficult to ever try and prosecute anyone for ‘accidentally’ trespassing onto some portion of the ‘State Park’.

    ** WHERE ARE THE MINUTES FROM THE SEPTEMBER 18, 2015 MEETING?

    Even as of today… there are still no ‘minutes’ posted at the PUBLIC website above for the “Yarnell Hill Memorial Board” meeting for the previous September 18, 2015 meeting of this PUBLIC Board.

    That’s coming up on a MONTH now since that meeting concluded.

    The LAWS regarding any PUBLIC meeting of a duly established ‘Arizona Public Board’ REQUIRE those minutes to be published within 72 hours following a meeting. The LAW also states that a PUBLIC Board is NOT supposed to wait until the ‘draft minutes’ are ‘approved’ at the NEXT meeting before posting those ‘draft minutes’ publicly.

    Indeed… this ‘Yarnell Hill Memorial Site’ PUBLIC Board seems to know that… because some of the minutes they HAVE posted publicly still have the ‘Draft Minutes’ watermark all over them.

    The September 18, 2015 meeting was supposed to be the one where Board Member Amanda Marsh was going to ‘present’ the results of her little ‘unsupervised’ polling of the ‘family members’ about what the actual PUBLIC access to this State Park should look like.

    So it’s highly likely that this Board has ALREADY decided what the real ‘access’ is going to look like ( for the general public )… and it’s only US ( the ones who are actually PAYING for this PUBLIC Park itself ) who don’t know yet.

    ** THE DEDICATION CEREMONY – JUNE 30, 2016

    The July meeting minutes ( which WERE eventually published as the the LAW requires ) stated that the ‘Board’ is actually shooting for a June 30, 2015 dedication ceremony.

    I got to thinking what that is actually going to ‘look like’.

    Given the absolute HISTORIC nature of the tragedy itseld… it’s obviously going to be a BIG DEAL and ‘anybody who is anybody’ will most likely want/need to be there.

    Politicians, Fire people, Family members, News media galore… etc. etc….

    But what about the PUBLIC?

    Is the PUBLIC even going to be invited to this historic ‘dedication’ of a PUBLIC Park?

    Remains to be seen.

    I also wonder what that ‘day’ itself is going to look like… ACCESS wise.

    Are they REALLY going to require anyone and everyone who wants to attend this HISTORIC ‘dedications’ of this new Arizona State PUBLIC Park to do the TWO MILE HIKE?

    I seriously doubt it.

    So what’s the ‘other plan’ for that day itself, then?

    If Lee and DJ Helm don’t ‘go along’ with (maybe) some kind of ‘plan’ to just use their property as one big ‘parking lot’ for all the satellites trucks and politicians cars… are they just going to declare ’eminent domain’ ( for that one day? ) and just TAKE OVER the ‘Boulder Springs Ranch’ and use it as the ‘staging area’ for this HISTORIC event?

    Or will there be Helicopter Shuttle flights out to the site… from somewhere?

    I believe that for SOME of the actual ‘Family Members’ who DESERVE to be in attendance that day… there is NO WAY they will be capable of making any kind of 2 mile HIKE to get there.

    So there has to be some kind of ‘alternate (easy) access plan’ implemented for that day of the ‘dedication ceremony’ itself… and the clock is ticking.

    If they really are shooting for a June 30, 2016 ‘Dedication Ceremony’… then it’s already past time for them to start planning for THAT… and those plans need to also start appearing in the PUBLIC minutes from the PUBLIC meetings of this PUBLIC Board.

    Reply

    • Typo above… I typed 2015 where I should have typed 2016.

      The line above should have read like this…

      “The July meeting minutes ( which WERE eventually published as the the LAW requires ) stated that the ‘Board’ is actually shooting for a June 30, 2016 dedication ceremony.”

      Reply

  33. **
    ** WHO WAS REALLY DRIVING THE CYFD PICKUP WITH THE CAMPER TOP?
    ** GARY CORDES… OR COUGAN CAROTHERS?
    **
    ** DISCUSSION CONTINUED…

    >> On October 11, 2015 at 12:54 pm, Marti Reed said…
    >>
    >> I’m not feeling as “done” as you are with this. And I’m just waking up after something
    >> of a rough night. But one of the reasons I’m not feeling as “done” as you are is that I
    >> never was able to be “done” with it, as hard as I tried. I really hated (and still do)
    >> working on this endless rabbit (at least it was a rabbit hole for me) that I worked on
    >> for endless amounts of time until I just finally got sick of doing it and moved on to
    >> where everybody else was at.

    I understand… but I think if we just forget about all the ‘who’s who’ in the photographs from later in the day for a moment and just focus on this ONE issue of WHO was really driving that CYFD Red-with-white-stripes pickup WITH the camper top ( Cordes or Carothers? )

    I believe we CAN either nail it down… OR relegate it to the “until there is more evidence we just can’t be sure” category.

    And I think it’s important to do that.. once and for all.

    So the question is… IS there some piece of evidence which would establish, for sure and certain… WHO was driving the CYFD command vehicle with the camper top that day?

    I still believe there IS… and ( once again ) it would be because Joy Collura was in the right place, at the right time, and doing the right thing that Sunday, June 30, 2013.

    She was ‘documenting’ what was happening that day… AS it was happening.

    The images that Joy Collura freely and transparently shared with the SAIT investigators ended up in their own special folder in the SAIT documentation… and that folder is still HERE…

    https://www.dropbox.com/sh/02ue6bnjp6nazkm/AAAQHmeW4AtE4acHagKGrrcSa/Photos%20and%20Video/Hiker%20Photos%20Videos/Reduced%20Photo%20Images?dl=0

    In that folder there are TWO images that CLEARLY show this CYFD command vehicle WITH the camper top installed ‘out there’ in the Sesame area in what ( I believe ) is DEFINITELY a ‘morning’ ( as in… before NOON ) timeframe.

    The were both in the same ‘grouping’ of photos that includes the ones showing the Blue Ridge vehicles first ‘arriving’ in the Sesame area… and we know now for sure and certain that was in the 10:30 AM range… almost 2 hours before Rance Marquez and Cougan Carothers would ever set foot out in that Sesame area that day.

    So any kind of ‘before NOON’ timeframe for these photos can ONLY mean that it was Gary Cordes who was driving that CYFD command vehicle WITH the camper top installed that day.

    Probably the most definite of the two would be the image in that folde named…

    “1 (40).JPG” ( 8th row down, 3rd from the left ).

    This photo of Joy Collura’s seems to be showing that moment when Gary Cordes says he instructed the dozer operator to ‘put a ring’ around the Granite Mountain Superintendent and Chase trucks, which were parked at the top end of the Sesame area where that east-west two track that the Granite Mountain Hotshots used to hike up to the ridge that day begins heading WEST there at the top of the Sesame area.

    Gary Cordes was ‘out there’ at that time in the morning… and this was definitely a MORNING event… long before Rance Marquez and Cougan Carothers ever showed up in the Sesame area.

    On the left side of the photo is the Red-with-white-stripes CYFD command vehicle that DOES have the ‘camper top’ installed.

    So IF that photo really was taken in the MORNING timeframe… then it would appear to be proof ( positive ) that Gary Cordes was driving the CYFD pickup WITH the camper top.

    The SECOND image that appears to establish that Gary Cordes was driving that CYFD pickup WITH the camper top would be the image named…

    “1 (25).JPG” ( 5th row down, 4th image from the left ).

    This is that photo of Joy Collura’s that show 3 vehicles out on one of the two-track roads in the Sesame area… and it was ALSO taken in what appears to be the same MORNING ( as in… before NOON ) timeframe… and from the same ‘vantage point’ out on the ridge as the other photos in this ‘grouping’.

    From left to right the vehicles shown are…

    The Dozer, the CYFD Red-with-white-stripes command vehicle WITH the camper top, and then one of the Blue Ridge Hotshot’s Chase trucks.

    An FF with a yellow Nomex shirt and a WHITE helmet is standing in front of the CYFD command vehicle and appears to be gesturing/talking to someone to the left, near the dozer. He LOOKS like he definitely could be Gary Cordes. ( Same height, build, and the WHITE helmet… etc. ).

    Given the (apparent) MORNING timeframe for this photo… it could still assumed this is Gary Cordes seen standing in front of that CYFD command vehicle and the reason the Blue Ridge Chase Truck is there is because this is the moment that Blue Ridge Hotshot Cory Ball had just been driven out there to take over the DOZB/HEQB job from Cordes.

    Again ( as with photo “1 (40).JPG” )… all that has to be proven is that either one ( or BOTH ) of these photos were taken BEFORE NOON… and they would BOTH represent proof that Gary Cordes was driving the CYFD pickup WITH the camper top installed that day.

    Actually… this gets very simple.

    Joy… are you reading this?

    You don’t have to remember the EXACT time these two photos were taken… but do you remember whether it was definitely in the MORNING ( as in… before NOON )?

    If the answer is YES… then both of these photos prove it was Gary Cordes driving the pickup WITH the camper top installed.

    No matter where this discussion goes from this point… I’m still going to need a ‘talk down’ and/or an explanation as to how Cougan Carothers could have been ‘out there’ in the Sesame area in the same ( morning ) timeframe as when these photos were ( apparently ) taken.

    Reply

    • I’m 60% convinced that you might be right.

      Without any testimony from Cougan Carothers, I don’t think it’s possible to know whether or not what you are saying is accurate.

      Reply

      • Reply to Marti Reed post on October 12, 2015 at 4:07 am

        >> Marti said…
        >>
        >> I’m 60% convinced that you might be right.
        >>
        >> Without any testimony from Cougan Carothers, I don’t think it’s
        >> possible to know whether or not what you are saying is accurate.

        Well, we don’t have any DIRECT testimony from Carothers as to his whereabouts that day… but we DO have INDIRECT testimony from Rance Marquez himself that when he and Carothers first headed down towards Yarnell circa NOON that day… that it was the first time that EITHER of them had been ‘down there’ that day.

        In one single section from Rance Marquez’ ADOSH interview, he seems to CONFIRM all of the following…

        1. It wasn’t until NOON or NOON-THIRTY before he ( Marquez ) ‘got it together’ to
        make that first trip out to the Sesame area.

        2. Cougan Carothers was assigned to work with Marquez ‘at the last minute’, and
        just before this ‘scouting trip’ down to Yarnell took place circa NOON to NOON-THIRTY.

        2. He and Cougan Carothers were ‘working together’… but they both had their ‘own vehicles’.

        3. This was the FIRST TIME either he or Carothers had been ‘out there’. They both considered this a ‘scouting mission’ since neither one of them had been out in the Sesame area prior to this time.

        Q1 = Bruce Hanna, ADOSH investigator
        Q3 = Dave Larsen, ADOSH / WFA investigator ( Rest in Peace )
        A = Rance Marquez, DIVSZ
        ———————————————————————————–
        243 A: And by the time I left, um, so by the time I got radio – radio’s cloned and maps
        244 and mobile clone – handheld cloned, all that kind of stuff, um, you know, it was
        245 about 12:00 – 12:30 before I – about 11:30, 12:00 to – to – and 12:30 before I got
        246 a ICP. At the last minute, um, another individual was assigned to go with me uh,
        247 by the name of Cougan Carothers as a Strike Team Leader Trainee.
        248
        249 Q3: Okay. So he – he travelled with you that – that…
        250
        251 A: He did.
        252
        253 Q3: …day?
        254
        255 A: Well he did. In individual – we both had our own vehicles. We’re kind of
        256 looking at this as a scouting mission not being in the area yet.
        257
        258 Q3: Right.
        259
        260 A: And – and um, we’re also told to go uh, tie in to get some more intel from uh, the
        261 structure group in the Yarnell uh,
        262
        263 Q1: Carothers?
        264
        265 A: No um, I have his name written down here. I can’t remember his name, but uh,
        266 Gary Cordes was structure group – was the other – was the structure group in
        267 Yarnell. Now I got uh, in – tied in with him right there at the grocery store and
        268 uh, and gas/gas station etcetera and um, he kind of got me s- got myself and
        269 Cougan um, dialed in as to where the road access was and that kind of stuff back
        270 into the area where Eric and – where Eric was working – well, where Granite
        271 Mountain and um, also Blue Ridge…
        272
        273 Q3:
        ——————————————————————————–

        Marquez said…
        ————————————————————————————
        255 A: Well he did. In individual – we both had our own vehicles. We’re kind of
        256 looking at this as a scouting mission not being in the area yet.
        ————————————————————————————

        Notice that Marquez uses the PLURAL ‘We’ ( meaning BOTH he and Carothers )
        when he says… “not being in the area ( the Sesame area ) yet ( that day )”…

        Marquez also says that after consulting with Cordes… Cordes got BOTH he
        and Carothers (quote) “dialed in as to where the road access was and that
        kind of stuff back into the area”.

        If Cougan Carothers had been ‘down there’ in Yarnell and ‘out there’ in the Sesame
        area at any time prior to this ( NOONISH )… then it was Cougan Carothers who
        should have been able to get Marquez “dialed in as to where the road access was”.

        He didn’t. Marquez says they needed SPGS Cordes to do that for BOTH of them.

        I believe all that can be considered at least a ‘good’ shred of PROOF that this was
        the ‘first’ official ‘assignment’ for Cougan Carothers on the SOUTH side of the fire
        that day… and that he had NOT been ‘out in the Sesame area’ at any time that
        morning, in any kind of vehicle.

        Reply

        • That could very well be true.

          However, since you trust the veracity of Marquez’ testimony much more than I even remotely do, how do you explain this, which I wrote downstream, after you wrote how much you trusted Marquez narrative of how Marquez and Carothers didn’t meet with Cordes up there at the scene of the Blue Ridge Buggies:

          “Who do you think the person on the far left of the group lined up in Papich’s photo is? I went through a LOT of comparing photos of Gary Cordes with that person and publicly determined that that person on the end was Gary Cordes, regardless of Marquez narrative (which has a NUMBER of holes in it). The discrepancy between Marquez’ narrative and this photo (among a number of OTHER discrepancies) has left me totally scratching my head, and not even remotely trusting Marquz’ narrative.

          If you look at that photo again, you will see that that lower-slung truck with the camper shell is sitting right behind the big truck without the camper shell, sandwiched right between the big truck and the Granite Mountain Hotshots buggy.”

          Reply

        • I need to reiterate right here what I wrote just a bit upstream. And that is that Cougan Carothers, a Yavapai County Fire District Battalion Chief, was dispatched to this fire as a Strike Team Leader WELL before he was assigned to work with Rance Marquez.

          That little factoid is related to my thinking about all of this.

          Reply

          • Marti Reed says

            Reply to Marti Reed post on October 12, 2015 at 6:25 pm

            >> Marti Reed said…
            >>
            >> I need to reiterate right here what I wrote just a bit upstream.
            >> And that is that Cougan Carothers, a Yavapai County Fire
            >> District Battalion Chief, was dispatched to this fire as a
            >> Strike Team Leader WELL before he was assigned
            >> to work with Rance Marquez.

            When you are ‘dispatched’… and when you actually ‘arrive’ and ‘check in’ to the fire can be two completely different things, as you know.

            Todd Abel has testified that BOTH Rance Marquez AND Cougan Carothers ‘checked in’ on the fire up at the ICP at the SAME TIME… and that’s why he “put them together”. See below.

            >> Marti Reed also said…
            >>
            >> That little factoid is related to my thinking about all of this.

            You have already said that you simply “don’t trust” any of Rance Marquez’s testimony… but what about what Todd Abel testified to?

            We know that Rance Marquez wasn’t there first thing in the morning… he arrived in the LATE MORNING that day and that’s why he wasn’t really ‘jumping in’ to the fire until around NOONISH after he had checked in at the ICP and was assigned to be DIVZ.

            However…

            Todd Abel testified that BOTH Rance Marquez AND Cougan Carothers CHECKED IN up at the ICP… AT THE SAME TIME… and THAT is why he ‘put them together’.

            So regardless of what times are on Cougan Carothers Resource Order… the OPS1 Supervisor testified that he and Marquez ‘checked in’ AT THE SAME TIME that day ( later in the morning ).

            From Todd Abel’s ADOSH testimony…

            Q1 = Dave Larsen, ADOSH /WFA investigator ( Rest in Peace )
            A = Field OPS1 Todd Abel…
            ——————————————————————-
            641 A: So when, uh – when we were over at the school after the big briefing with all the resources, um, we still had more people checking in. And one of the guys that checked in was a – a Division supervisor, uh, by the name of Rance Marquez.

            Q1: Okay.

            A: Um, I asked Rance – actually two people checked in at the same time, Rance Marquez qualified Division sup and then, uh, Cougan Carothers who was a strike team leader trainee. I put those two together and my assignment to them, um, was to go out and talk with Eric Marsh who was Division Alpha.

            Q1: Right.

            A: Come up with a logical Division break and then I need you to start scouting and find out what kind of resources you’re gonna need, uh, to try to keep the fire – you know out of Yarnell or whatever you think is appropriate.

            Q1: Okay.

            A: So, um, I sent them out there.
            ——————————————————————-

            Todd Abel testified…

            “…actually TWO people checked in AT THE SAME TIME, Rance Marquez qualified Division sup and then, uh, Cougan Carothers who was a strike team leader trainee. I put those two together.”

            So Todd Abel “paired them up” because they were both just initially ‘checking in’ to the fire AT THE SAME TIME.

            If Cougan Carothers had already been down in Yarnell and somehow out in the Sesame area BEFORE he got this assignment from OPS1 Todd Abel… then that means he had to have been ‘freelancing’ and doing things in the Sesame area BEFORE he had ever ‘checked in’ on the fire up at the ICP.

            So “I hear you” up above that you fundamentally don’t trust any of Rance Marquez’s testimony… but what about this testimony from OPS1 Todd Abel?

            It establishes the same thing Marquez’s testimony does… that there’s really no way Cougan Carothers could have been out there in the Sesame area and been driving that CYFD truck with the camper top that was photographed by Joy in the 10:00 AM to 11:00 AM timeframe.

            Abel’s testimony “backs up” Marquez’s testimony.

            Reply

              • You asked below “Why does this matter?”

                “What difference does it make whether Gary Cordes was driving the CYFD pickup with the camper top… or not?”

                Well… other than the simple fact that it would be nice to “get this right” once and for all… since those vehicles show up in any number of photos in the evidence record… this thread actually ties back to something you posted.

                It’s a simple ‘nuts and bolts’ question ( for me, anyway ).

                You thanked me for posting the YouTube video of the Anna Marie Lechner photo… but you also said ( with assurance )…

                “That’s not Gary Cordes’ truck. It’s Cougan Carothers’ truck”.

                So the simple ‘nuts and bolts’ issue ( for me ) is whether I need to take the time on this end and change all the annotations that were added to that video documenting the new ‘Anna Marie Lechner’ photo.

                I don’t think I do.

                Hopefully Joy can talk to Anna Marie and get an almost-exact TIME for that photo… and whether it really was either Cordes or Carothers… it will be good to know.

                But I still think the probability that that CYFD truck with the camper top WAS being driven by Gary Cordes that day are high enough that I don’t need to jump all over changing any of the annotations in the video.

                I think we should keep working this one.

                I think it matters.

                I think there IS enough evidence ‘laying on the table’ to put this one to bed once and for all… WITHOUT any testimony from Cougan Carothers.

                Joy Collura has already CONFIRMED ( down below ) that those two photos she took of that CYFD truck WITH the camper installed were definitely taken BEFORE the NOON hour. She puts it in the 10:18 to 11:00 AM timeframe, the same timeframe as applying that ‘4 hour offset’ to the timestamps in the photos themselves.

                Both Rance Marquez’s testimony AND OPS1 Todd Abel’s testimony seem to prove that there really is no way Cougan Carothers could have somehow been out there ‘bombing around’ in ANY vehicle in that same BEFORE-NOON timeframe.

                So it really doesn’t matter whether Cordes was there at the meetup with Marquez and Carothers.

                If there was no way Carothers could have been out there prior to that ‘meeting’… then that CYFD pickup with the camper top MUST have been the one being driven by Gary Cordes that day.

                “When you have eliminated the impossible… whatever is left ( however improbable ) must be the truth”.

                I think we’re close to that on this one, particular piece of the ‘puzzle’.

                Reply

                • PS. Does it matter, that, if you are correct, Gary Cordes was just sitting there on the side of 89, watching the fire, when he says he was evacuating people from that neighborhood just northeast of Shrine Road?

                  Reply

                  • Marti Reed says
                    Reply to Marti Reed post on
                    October 13, 2015 at 6:15 am

                    >> Marti said…
                    >>
                    >> PS. Does it matter, that, if you are
                    >> correct, Gary Cordes was just sitting
                    >> there on the side of 89, watching the fire,
                    >> when he says he was evacuating people
                    >> from that neighborhood just northeast
                    >> of Shrine Road?

                    Yep. Sure does.

                    It means there *might* be just one more thing that is a little ‘wonky’ with SPGS1 Cary Cordes’ testimony to investigators.

                    However… if we accept ( for just a moment, anyway ) that Gary Cordes WAS driving that CYFD pickup WITH the camper top… then both of the following things would appear to be true…

                    At 4:16 PM… he was still sitting way up there at that ‘observation’ point north of Yarnell, at that concrete driveway on the WEST side of Highway 89.

                    At 4:45 PM ( confirmed now by Anna Marie Lechner herself? ) Anna Marie Lechner photographed him just 1 block south of where Shrine Road meets Highway 89, heading SOUTH and ( apparently ) straight for the Ranch House Restaurant ( where that same vehicle would then appear in the Russ Reason video circa 4:50 – 5:00 PM ).

                    So that leaves about 29 minutes ( call it a half-hour ) when we still can’t be sure WHERE he was.

                    If he left that ‘observation point’ up there north of Yarnell right after that video ended… then I suppose he DID have time in that half-hour to pull into the Norton Way area and be shouting out the window of the truck for people to evacuate.

                    If he didn’t leave there right after that video… I would say it becomes doubtful he had the time to do those other things he told investigators he did in the Norton Way area.

                    PS: If we are also accepting ( just for a moment, anyway? ) that Cordes WAS driving the ‘camper top’ puppy… then I believe that is Cordes seen in the Russ Reason video standing near that same vehicle and near the porch of the Ranch Restaurant in his WHITE Helment, holding his radio… and just sort of STARING off to the WEST towards what we now know was the ‘deployment site’ area.

                    If Anna Marie Lechner really did capture him heading south on 89 at 4:45 PM… and that really is him standing near the same vehicle in the Russ Reason video… then that means he had basically just arrived there and this ‘staring out towards the deployment’ site was one of the first things he did when he got there.

                    Cordes says Captain Reyes is the one who told him Granite Mountain had actually deployed… and Cordes’ first reaction was “BULLSHIT… they are in the bomb-proof safety zone and they had plenty of time to get there”.

                    But Cordes has still never said exactly WHEN Captain Reyes ( of Engine 59 ) told him that.

                    If we accept the ‘timing’ above… then it appears that happened just moments before the Russ Reason video began.

                    Reply

        • And I also need to say, here, at this point in this conversation, why (other than all this morning stuff) I don’t trust Rance Marquez’ narrative in general.

          My mistrust, (beyond his not-so-accurate-in-my-humble-opinion-regarding-the-morning-narrative) also is compounded by the fact that his narrative of what happened that afternoon seriously doesn’t correspond to the visual evidence. I wrestled with that mightily for quite some time.

          This is what Rance said in his ADOSH Interview”

          “Q3: Okay. And so when you go ahead and describe then what the – what the rest of
          1404 your uh, rest of your day was?
          1405

          1406 A: Uh, after the fire got um, was no longer a threat to the structures, we organized a
          1407 little bit of mop up and um, I heard that and then right after that – right after the
          1408 fire front passed those houses and the smoke kind of just subsided a little bit, um,
          1409 I heard air – air to ground, which I’m at the time, I was told it was Lead 1-1, um,
          1410 asking someone on the ground if they could see the helicopter and then um, a little
          1411 bit later, I heard them ask if they could hear the helicopter which that got me uh, I
          1412 knew something was not right exactly. Didn’t know what and then um, there was
          1413 a loud – someone yelled into the radio and uh, and then who- and the Air Attack
          1414 responded by whoever was yelling into the radio to please stop and uh, then he
          1415 just kept calling for Granite Mountain. There was never a response after that.”

          That is not what happened, even remotely.

          And there’s more of that but I’m not gonna copy and paste all of it, but it’s equally not accurate, according to the visual evidence.

          Rance Marquez passed in front of the Air2Air camera going east at 3:51 PM.

          At 4:15 PM his truck is in the Jake Guadiana video.

          He is seen driving up to the Shrine area and then turning around in Aaron’s video (I can’t get the time on that because I can’t access the video because I haven’t schlepped my hard drives around the corner). But we know, generally speaking, when that was.

          How much else did he forget or disremember? And why?

          So that’s, honestly, why I don’t trust Rance’s narrative as a be all and end all framework for accurately understanding what was actually going on.

          Reply

          • And another thing.

            From what I remember from way back when, one thing I remember was somebody (Robert the Second?) saying that Cougan Carothers very definitely was not even remotely interested in being interviewed by ADOSH. That interview didn’t just randomly not happen.

            In my mind there is just something not right in all of this. And I don’t know what it is.

            And PS. For the reasons I wrote below, I’m not convinced that Gary Cordes is just sitting there on the side of 89 watching the fire in that video.

            So you, WTKTT, may be right. But I’m not convinced.

            That’s why I said that absent a testimony from Cougan Carothers, I don’t think it’s possible to accurately evaluate all of this.

            Reply

            • And, as I wrote downstream, Marquez’ truck and that camper-covered truck are parked together on July 1.

              Why?

              When Gary Cordes was interviewed by ADOSH, he couldn’t even remember Rance Marquez’ name.

              Reply

              • And, to be perfectly honest, I don’t even, all things considered, understand why, all of a sudden, right now, a year and a half after I finally basically gave up on trying to identify all these vehicles because it was pretty clear that nobody else really gave a darn and everybody else had moved on to more important things………

                Why does it matter now?

                I mean, really, what difference does it make in the general scheme of things?

                Somebody please riddle me this.

                Reply

                • I mean, really, what difference does it make which truck Gary Cordes was driving and which truck was Cougan Carothers driving?

                  Reply

                • OK. I have to confess.

                  At one point in time, a year and a half ago, this mattered to me a lot because the visual record didn’t even remotely sync with Rance Marquez’ narrative, and that bothered me a whole lot.

                  I wondered, “What is he hiding and why??????”

                  And is Cougan Carothers hiding something? And why??

                  Why would Rance’s narrative not match the visual record and why would Cougan have obstructed the ADOSH investigation?

                  I was really bothered by that. Then.

                  But nobody else was so, since I was sick of trying to figure out all these vehicles while everybody else was more interested in other things, I finally said to myself “Screw it” and put it all to bed on my computer.

                  If you’re actually really interested in vehicles, the Incident Management Team truck is a real piece of cake.

                  And if you’re really interested in people, that guy in the red helmet in the Ranch House Restaurant (who I used to think was Tony Sciacca, all things considered) who is pacing and waiting and the instant Darell Willis pulls up goes directly to talk to him for a bit and then keeps pacing the parking lot — I’d REALLY like to know who he is.

                  (Could that be Dean Steward??)

                  But would anybody else want to know? Is this important? Is this not important? Who decides what (that is still not resolved) is important or not important?

                  Meanwhile………..WHO CARES?????????

                  Reply

    • WTKTT,

      In looking through Joy’s photos I noticed something that I am wondering if you have seen, or maybe its my old eyes playing tricks on me. Photo 356 of 366 or JPG 100_0324 appears to have a dozer in the lower right of the photo working toward the structure – have you already seen this? Or is it just a big yellowish colored rock?

      Reply

      • I know the photo you are referring to ( 100_324.JPG ).

        That is a photo that Joy took from the passenger side of the vehicle she was traveling in as she was evacuating from Yarnell down the south part of Highway 89.

        The ‘view’ is actually to the northwest ( from the southeast )… and the ‘orange glow’ over the horizon represents the fire actually burning out in the box canyon and moving into the western parts of Glen Ilah.

        As for what you are seeing in the lower right of the photo ( right near that structure )… I don’t think that’s a dozer.

        The ‘light’ that seems to be on there seems more like it’s on the front of the structure itself ( and not a dozer cage light or headlight ).

        There is another similar ‘point of light’ off on the LEFT side of the photo… near that other ( larger ) structure.

        As for why it LOOKS like it might be a dozer ( the yellow object near the structure )… I haven’t a clue.

        Maybe it IS. Seems absurd it would have been there, in that location, just trying to do something for one small house… but as we have learned over the course of this discussion… the minute we think something might have been ‘absurd’… there is evidence to suggest the ‘absurd’ was ruling the day, that day.

        Good eye… and thanks for noticing this.

        KEEP LOOKING!

        Reply

        • Followup…

          That ‘100_324.JPG’ photo mentioned above is at the BOTTOM of that page showing Joy Collura’s photos.

          It’s the FIRST picture on the LEFT in the THIRD row up from the BOTTOM of that SAIT Dropbox folder containing some of Joy Collura’s photos.

          ALSO…

          ** SATELLITE VIEW ALSO SHOWS ‘YELLOW’ OBJECTS?

          If you go to Google maps and ‘zoom down’ on the south side of Yarnell… where those two houses are located… you will see that they both survived the fire.

          But if you look closely at the ‘house in question’, where those ‘yellow dots’ seem to be seen in the photo… you can STILL see two ‘objects’ there in front of the house that ( even with a top-down satellite view ) that appear to be YELLOW…. and they also appear to be in the same exact relative location in front of that house as seen in Joy Collura’s photograph.

          The exact latitude/longitude for those 2 ‘yellow objects’ sitting out in front of that small structure would be…

          34.207725, -112.755533

          Just cut-and-paste the line above ( including the comma ) into the search bar of ‘Google Maps’ and a map will appear with a ‘balloon marker’ sitting right between these two objects in front of that small structure that seem to be reading as ‘yellow objects’ even from earth orbit.

          Reply

    • REPLY BELOW:

      Actually… this gets very simple.

      Joy… are you reading this?

      You don’t have to remember the EXACT time these two photos were taken… but do you remember whether it was definitely in the MORNING ( as in… before NOON )?

      *****replied by email below because I have not been to I M for a bit…trying to do some projects away from pc…I will be visiting Yarnell 2-7pm than hiking down the Weavers tomorrow back home to Congress. I am looking for someone to help me shave my head and cut off the golden locks and start fresh—I want to thank WWTKTT because I FINALLY got my answers without the State Land Park and in that so grateful to WWTKTT because in link you posted I got to see http://www.azstateparks.com/committees/downloads/Yarnell_Memorial_PowerPoint_04-10-15.pdf

      YEAH! YAY!!! I have waited for detailed information and all I come off is some lady who wants to go to meetings and really I do not even want to be present or engage or participate because I know I am not even welcome there number one (everyone has shown they adore Sonny especially Karen Fann who bought him gifts…as he seem to be left alone throughout this process just me was singled out) but the map in link above should be posted in Yarnell on bulletin boards and I should of got this too because its most detailed and I never ever knew the 320 acres ran that way in that direction—I thought it ran wide imminent domain areas but no people told me after asking alot of different areas—people; just wanted to talk shit about me versus properly sharing this link above. Thank you WWTKTT. Now in seeing THAT purchased 320 acres map…the widows are correct. I took pretty much every hike in the area because I sent the reply map of my hikes to either Paxon or Payne that July 2013 highlighting direction I would be taken—would have to look in files I printed up to which man….even talking to Steve the state land trespassing officer—and it was acceptable to hike the mountaintop—I never was told no and I was never EDUCATED anything different and first I ever heard I was in restricted areas was from flying rumors in Fall 2014 that I was trying to find facts and was getting bullshit versus help but the rumors said that I was hiking folks to the site and that was NOT TRUE and was very offended by it especially WHY JUST ME and not the other hiker EVER MENTIONED when rumors flew…than in the first week of January 2015 I learned the two track was off limits and then confirmed it with Max Masel but today seeing the map in the above link…freaking too many—number would be in the thousands who violated such besides me including the other hiker and MANY reading this page right now…THAT IS WHY IT IS CRUCIAL FOR THEM TO PROPERLY SET BOUNDARIES AND SIGNAGE—I want to publicly apologize for keeping a stance I was innocent yet it was based on what was given to me so in what information I had I felt I was innocent…just so you know…Now, since getting the map in January not a soul can say I have been even in the area except the week of when the men died I was walking towards Helms with Grant Scott McKee introduced him to Bruce and McCrackens and I wanted permission to be in area from a higher up because I was not going to push the part and yet Sonny was more at ease to hike with people but he was not at ease with going with Phil M of GMHS or Mr. McKee because Sonny felt a bit off and has been really as he stated the other day a bit off on the topic ever since…God guiding Mr. McKee to our lives ruined me and Sonny’s knowing another Sonny stated. MY door is always open to Tex Harold Eldon Gilligan (Sonny) yet he has too many times used that week as his “out” to want to continue to know me…Sonny point blank does not want to hike the loved ones or anyone not even me and he has gone forward with his life. I can’t hike anyone but will always be available to help properly assess the YHF. Sonny feels we both have given our ALL and always been available for every person trying to figure out how 19 men died. Our time is done. That is his take. My take is if anyone wants to share their photos locally…anyone who was on the fire and wants to finally speak up and use me as their voice—just know I am not going anywhere. I live in Congress. I have a new job since my trails with Sonny ended. I am helping a few on some projects. I am going over to Yarnell to review some photos and hopefully it will help properly assess the fire and maybe some more new photos with vehicles and firefighters—until the day I pass on my door is open to all— (480) 280-5813 leave me a detailed message and I will get back as soon as I can.
      I have been tormented with such unneeded turmoil during another’s way of thinking…can anyone tell me after all the childhood stuff and teen stuff and young adult stuff and I have my best friend since the 80’s; my husband help carry me through—I am never looking to have a storybook way of life—I just want my hikes and my freedoms and my constitutional rights to walk across this here land of America…I made a vow not to dwell in others’ miseries anymore–I just want my rights and stop the horseshit of restricting my individualism…what I have learned from the YHF—and from my hikes with Sonny. NOBODY is going to make me into their nightmares of a vision…In closing, the YHF….
      ——-In truth, the real nature of things lies behind a veil of MYSTERY—-the root causes of events are hidden from our sight.—–

      email between wwtktt and me:
      Mon, Oct 12, 2015 at 11:16 AM

      I was asking you if you happen to remember if these photos were taken in the MORNING
      ( as in, sometime before NOON ).
      *****absolutely took them in morning and way before noon…more like 10:18-11am mark

      You do NOT have to remember the EXACT time.
      *****Sonny had me take vehicle photos and I can tell you it was not at 10:28-10:43am because I was on phone with people so more like 10:18-10:28 or 10;43-11am

      Reply

  34. **
    ** CAMPERTOP, CAMPERTOP… WHOSE GOT THE CAMPERTOP?

    >> Reply to October 10, 2015 at 3:16 pm by Marti Reed
    >>
    >> Marti said…
    >>
    >> Thanks for that, WTKTT, but that’s not Gary’s truck. That’s Cougan’s.
    >>
    >> Gary’s truck is the bigger open-bed truck.
    >> Cougan’s is the smaller covered-bed truck.

    I actually wouldn’t say the CYFD pickup WITHOUT the camper top is the ‘bigger’ one, ( size-wise ) but that is neither here nor there… nor is it the most obvious ‘difference’.

    The obvious difference between these two CYFD Red-with-white-stripes command vehicles is that one of them has a camper top… and the other one does not ( but does have a standard silver toolbox installed in the bed ).

    So let’s get back to basics for a moment and try to do a final ‘nail down’ on whether the evidence proves, without any doubt, WHO was driving that CYFD pickup with the camper top ( Cordes or Caruthers )… and WHO was driving the other one WITHOUT the camper top.

    I *thought* we had this nailed down a long time ago… but here we are again… so let’s try to ‘put this one to bed’ once and for all.

    I honestly think you have it backwards, and the opposite of what I *thought* we had already proved sometime way back when.

    And here is just one reason why…

    Blue Ridge Hotshot Papich took photos of that ‘meeting’ that took place circa NOON out in the Sesame area when DIVSZ Rance Marquez and his assigned assistant that day ( Cougan Caruthers ) first showed up out there to assess the situation.

    In Papich’s photo named IMG_3952… the left side of the photo shows the vehicles they ( Marquez and and Caruthers ) used to get out there.

    The photo shows the Red-with-white-stripes CYFD pickup WITHOUT the camper top sitting there with its door open… just 20 feet to the left of where Marquez and Caruthers were having that meeting.

    I don’t think Gary Cordes was ever even AT that meeting, at that time, so that would seem to be proof-positive that Cougan Caruthers was the one driving the CYFD pickup WITHOUT the camper top that day.

    In his ADOSH interview… Rance Marquez actually goes into some pretty fine detail about this intial scouting mission he was doing out there. He related to ADOSH that at one point he ( and Caruthers ) had gone all the way out to where Ball and the Dozer were working… and met with them… and then he says they came back to the ‘clearing’ where the Blue Ridge Trucks were parked ( Papich’s photos ) and then actually met with Frisby and Brown there after they had ‘come down’ from their face-to-face with Marsh and Steed…

    …but at NO time does Marquez mention Gary Cordes as having been out there in that timeframe or one of the ones he ‘met with’ out there.

    If I have gone totally brain dead on this… and Gary Cordes really WAS present at that meeting out there at that time being captured in the Papich photos… then which one of the four FFs seen in the photo is Cordes?

    I don’t see him ( Cordes ) standing there.

    ** RANCE MARQUEZ’S ADOSH INTERVIEW SAYS CORDES WAS NOT AT THAT MEETING

    Actually… I just found that part in Rance Marquez’s ADOSH interview where I thought he had CONFIRMED that Gary Cordes did NOT attend that meeting out there… and so whichever CYFD pickup was ‘seen’ out there MUST have been the one Cougan Caruthers was driving that day.

    Marquez told ADOSH that as he and Cougan Caruthers were headed out there… they met with Cordes at what Marquez described as a ‘grocery store / gas station’ ( The mini-mart? ) and Cordes just CONSULTED with them about how to get out to the Sesame area… but Cordes did NOT end up going out there with them.

    Marquez said that at the time he and Cougan met with Cordes to get ‘directions’ out to the Sesame area, Cordes was (quote) “busy organizing incoming crews and engines”.

    Marquez said Cordes just “gave them the directions” and then he and Cougan Caruthers proceeded out there WITHOUT Gary Cordes.

    Here is exactly what Rance Marquez told ADOSH…

    ———————————————————————————————-
    266 Gary Cordes was structure group – was the other – was the structure group in
    267 Yarnell. Now I got uh, in – tied in with him right there at the grocery store and
    268 uh, and gas/gas station etcetera and um, he kind of got me s- got myself and
    269 Cougan um, dialed in as to where the road access was and that kind of stuff back
    270 into the area where Eric and – where Eric was working – well, where Granite
    271 Mountain and um, also Blue Ridge…
    272
    273 Q3: Right.
    274
    275 A: …was in – were in.
    276
    277 Q3: Well when you were at…
    278
    279 A: And the dozer.
    …
    …
    377 A: They had two structure groups, so they were busily getting – getting prepared
    378 for that. Um, talking with Gary my short time, he – he was busy organizing
    379 incoming crews and engines as well. Was trying to get them figured out on where
    380 – where their priorities were. So again, it was a – an emergency – or an emerging
    381 incident.
    382
    383 Q3: Okay. So you – you dro- drove from ICP down to Yarnell did you and did I get
    384 that right?
    385
    386 A: Yes.
    387
    388 Q3: And you tied in with Cordes?
    389
    390 A: I did.
    391
    392 Q3: Ok, did he – did he uh, did he talk to you at all about uh, safety zones and pre-
    393 identified safety zones?
    394
    395 A: He did not and I don’t think he had – well, I don’t know what – what he thought,
    396 but he gave me the – the directions because even though the signs say – well the
    397 map said one thing. A lot of the homeowners had put up their own homemade
    398 road signs. Was kind of comical because he said the – the primary way in was
    399 Sesame Street so I had to find my way to Sesame Street, but it wasn’t on any –
    400 it’s not any other map. It was so – just its…
    401
    402 Q3: Right.
    403
    404 A: …it was just a handmade sign that somebody had put on there.
    405
    406 Q3: All right. So you saw – you – you met with uh, Cordes in person?
    407
    408 A: I did.
    409
    410 Q3: Okay. Did – then uh, so uh, how did you contact Marsh? Did you go out and talk
    411 to him?
    412
    413 A: Mark or Marsh?
    414
    415 Q1: Marsh.
    416
    417 Q3: Marsh. Excuse me.
    418
    419 A: Uh, yeah.
    420
    421 Q3: Division Alpha.
    422
    423 A: Division Alpha. Yes. I – I drove out to the fire area um, through Sesame Street,
    424 through the – through the – through Yarnell, hit the uh, the wildland area and on
    425 the way out, actually drove by uh, buggies from – from Blue Ridge. There was
    426 uh, commo in there’s kind of weird cause it’s – I – I don’t know if the granite eats
    427 it or what, but sometimes you line of sight stuff, you think you be able to get it
    428 and other times, you can’t and it’s just a – um, I kind of experienced the same
    429 stuff on the Doce Fire where commo didn’t seem to be exactly great and I – and I
    430 don’t know why. It wasn’t cause we couldn’t see them. I could actually see
    431 Granite Mountain working uh, up on the hill and uh, anyway, I finally made
    432 contact with – with Eric and – and we chatted a bit.
    ——————————————————————————————–

    So that’s the ‘story’ according to Rance Marquez himself.

    He and Cougan Caruthers just met with SPGS1 Gary Cordes while they were headed down to Yarnell ( at the mini-mart? ) and all Cordes did was give them ‘directions’ on how to get out to the Sesame area once they got down to Yarnell.

    But Gary Cordes did NOT go ‘with them’.

    So that means the CYFD pickup WITHOUT the camper top photographed by Papich out there for that ‘meeting’ in the Sesame area MUST have been the vehicle Cougan Caruthers was driving. At least at THAT time ( 12:00 – 12:30 PM ), anyway.

    The OTHER piece of evidence that I thought we had already gone over that established Gary Cordes driving the pickup WITH the camper top was that photo that Joy Collura took that morning, around the time the Blue Ridge vehicles were first ‘arriving’ out in the Sesame area.

    One of Joy’s photos taken in that same timeframe ( 10:30 AM ish ) shows that CYFD pickup WITH the camper top out there in the Sesame area… with it’s driver door open and what looks for all the world like Gary Cordes standing in front of it.

    I had thought we had established that this was actually Joy capturing what could have been the ‘hand off’ moment when Cordes was turning control of the dozer over to BR Hotshot Cory Ball.

    Even if that wasn’t that exact moment… the TIME for this photo was in the MORNING, when Gary Cordes was KNOWN to have been out in that area and a good 2 HOURS before Rance Marquez and Cougan Caruthers would ever show up out there in the 12:00 – 12:30 PM timeframe.

    So there is additional proof ( we thought? ) that Gary Cordes was definitely driving that CYFD pickup that DID have the ‘camper top’ on it.

    Reply

    • Followup…

      And just to ( hopefully ) speed this up to some kind of conclusion… I think I can anticipate some of the “Well… what about this?” comebacks.

      Let me try to pre-comment on those just for the sake of time.

      ** What about the Jake Guadiana video ?

      >> On October 10, 2015 at 3:31 pm, Marti Reed said…
      >>
      >> This Jake Guadiana video shows both Lance and Cougan with their trucks
      >> standing by the roadside watching the fire:
      >>
      >> USB YARNELL HILL 020.avi

      https://www.dropbox.com/sh/02ue6bnjp6nazkm/AABtgGDgNOKkhnX1Q4E6v4q0a/Photos%20and%20Video/AZFS%20photos%20videos/USB%20YARNELL%20HILL%20020.avi?dl=0

      Look carefully at the drivers side window of the CYFD pickup WITH the camper top that is seen in this video.

      If that is Cougan Caruthers standing OUTSIDE the CYFD pickup WITH the camper back ( and it very will might be )… then whose left elbow ( wearing a Nomex shirt ) is that seen sticking out of the driver’s side of the CYFD pickup-with-campertop itself?

      At the +11 second mark, as the camera was ZOOMING near the driver’s window of that CYFD pickup WITH the camper top is the best view of what appears to be someone with a Nomex shirt on sitting in the driver’s seat with their elbow leaning on the window sill.

      I would believe that the FF with the ‘X’ sweat marks on the back of his shirt is Cougan Caruthers… but there really does appear to be another FF already sitting in the driver’s seat of the CYFD pickup in the same video.

      That means it would have been Gary Cordes.

      I don’t know where the other CYFD pickup WITHOUT the camper top might have been or WHY it isn’t also showing up in the same video… but I would say that if that really is Cougan Caruthers standing OUTSIDE that vehicle… and there really was another FF sitting in the drivers’s seat of that CYFD pickup WITH the camper top… then that is must more proof that Gary Cordes really was driving the one WITH the camper top… and Cougan Caruthers was driving the one WITHOUT the camper top.

      By the way… I know this all goes back to the original WORLDNEWS ‘photo in question’ that Gary Olson was asking about… and whether or not any of THOSE FFs could have been the ones talking to Marsh circa 4:13 PM… so it’s interesting to note that if we can trust the TIMESTAMPS on this Jake Guadiana video ( 4:16 PM )… then right there in this photo are at least FOUR FFs who COULD have been the ones having those 4:13 to 4:18 PM radio conversations with Eric Marsh… and they might have been doing it from RIGHT THERE at one of those three concrete driveways on the west side of Hwy 89 there north of the town of Yarnell.

      Here is the actual FULL TRANSCRIPT of that Jake Guadiana video as was posted back in Chapter XI ( Chapter 11 ) of this ongoing discussion…

      ——————————————————————————————
      File Name: USB YARNELL HILL 020.avi
      File Size: 17 MB
      File Type: AVI
      Date/Time Original: 2011:03:07 04:16:46
      Software: CanonMVI06
      Duration: 15.31 s

      Actual Date/Time: Sunday, June 30, 2013 @ 4:16:46 PM

      NOTE: This is the video taken looking west from Highway 89 just north of Yarnell proper with what appears to be Rance Marquez, Cougan Caruthers and Tony Sciacca conferring in front of the white cattle fence across the road.

      +0:00
      (Foreground: Unknown 1): That one can certainly wait.

      +0:01
      (Background: Unknown 2: Sounds like OPS1 Todd Abel ): ( To John Burfiend
      in B33 ) He said… both parties should be waitin’ ( in the attack area? ) ( to call ? ).

      +0:04
      (Foreground: Unknown 3): ( Laughing )

      +0:05
      (B33 – John Burfiend): Okay… soooo… right up against the pulse there… that’s where
      we’re gonna ( be droppin’ )?

      +0:07
      (Foreground: Unknown 1 ): What are you concerned about?

      +0:08
      (Foreground: Unknown 3 ): Nuthin’. Catching sumthin?

      +0:10
      (Foreground: Unknown 1 ): ( Laughing )
      (Foreground: Unknown 3 ): ( Also laughing )

      +0:11
      (Background: Unknown 2: Sounds like OPS1 Todd Abel ): That’s when I’m clearin’ fire
      around that structure… and they’re gonna get in the ( road ) ( VIDEO ENDS AND
      CUTS OFF THE NEXT WORD ).

      +0:15.31 – END OF VIDEO
      ———————————————————————————

      Reply

      • Followup 2…

        ** What about the Swartz photo?

        Again… in the interests of just pre-commenting on all possible ‘comebacks’… let me just point out that I believe the ‘Swartz’ photo referenced below was taken just MINUTES before or after the WORLDNEWS ‘photo in question’ posted by Gary Olson.

        That CYFD pickup WITHOUT the camper top ( and with the standard silver toolbox installed at the top of the bed ) is in the EXACT SAME SPOT in BOTH the ‘Swartz’ photo and the WORLDNEWS ‘photo in question’.

        Also… in BOTH photos… almost the exact same group of FFs can be seen ‘assembled’ there out on the edge of the RHR parking lot in the exact same place.

        In particular… that FF with the WHITE helmet, the chest harness with BK radio, and the ‘faded’ Nomex shirt. He’s easily identified from a distance ( in the Swartz photo ) because his Nomex shirt was either ‘off brand’ or ‘very faded’ and has almost a ‘light lemon yellow’ color to it… as compared to all the other yellow Nomex shirts around him.

        He’s also wearing KHAKIS… which easily identifies him from a distance.

        There’s no question that that is the same FF seen in BOTH the Swartz photo and the WORLDNEWS ‘photo in question’… and he’s seen standing in almost the exact same place for both photos.

        That means the two photos were taken very close together.

        As a matter of fact… the Swartz photo shows us who might have actually TAKEN the WORLDNEWS ‘photo in question’.

        Look at the right side of the Swartz photo… at the FF with the RED Helmet and the white towel/cloth wrapped around his face.

        He is obviously already ‘shooting photos’ in that timeframe with a smartphone that he is holding out in front of his face.

        This same FF with the red helmet could have been the one who then took the other WORLDNEWS ‘photo in question’ either just before or just after Swartz took HIS photo of him already ‘taking pictures’ there.

        So the bottom line here is that the CYFD pickup WITHOUT the campertop that is seen in BOTH the ‘Swartz’ and the WORLDNEWS ‘photo in question’ is actually more likely the one that Cougan Caruthers was driving that day.

        The FF with the black helment on the left side of the WORLDNEWS ‘photo in question’ might very well be Cougan Caruthers. Certainly when he knew he was being assigned to the medical team he would have ‘geared up’ and replaced his ball cap with a (black?) helmet.

        So there is every chance one of those FF’s there is Caruthers… but Gary Cordes is nowhere to be seen in either of these photos.

        By the way… if the timestamp of 18:43 ( 6:43 PM ) being displayed on the Swartz photo itself can be trusted.. then I believe that also puts a close time onto the WORLDNEWS ‘photo in question’ itself.

        6:43 PM sounds/looks about right for BOTH of these photos.

        It wasn’t *quite* dark yet ( but getting there )… and 6:43 PM would have been more than enough time for the ‘spot fires’ seen in the background of the WORLDNEWS ‘photo in question’ to have been burning there down Highway 89 and on the EAST side of Glen Ilah.

        Reply

        • Actually.. there really is little doubt that that IS Cougan Carothers seen in the black helmet on the left edge of that WORLDNEWS ‘photo in question’ that Gary Olson posted a link to.

          There is a CLEAR picture of Cougan Carothers on the Central Yavapai ‘Senior Staff’ web page… which is here…

          http://www.centralyavapaifire.org/index.cfm?section=15&pagenum=232

          If you compare that photo of Carothers with the FF in the ‘photo in question’ and just imagine him not smiling… squinting a little… and with a ‘helmet’ on… there’s not much reason to doubt that’s him.

          So that just confirms what I said above.

          That probably IS Cougan Carothers in that ‘photo in question’ and that just makes it more apparent that that CYFD pickup WITHOUT the campertop also seen in the same photo(s) is the one that HE was driving that day…

          …and Gary Cordes really was driving the CYFD pickup WITH the campertop.

          Reply

        • >> WTKTT wrote…
          >>
          >> Also… in BOTH photos… almost the exact same group of FFs
          >> can be seen ‘assembled’ there out on the edge of the RHR
          >> parking lot in the exact same place.
          >>
          >> In particular… that FF with the WHITE helmet, the chest harness
          >> with BK radio, and the ‘faded’ Nomex shirt. He’s easily identified
          >> from a distance ( in the Swartz photo ) because his Nomex shirt
          >> was either ‘off brand’ or ‘very faded’ and has almost a ‘light
          >> lemon yellow’ color to it… as compared to all the other
          >> yellow Nomex shirts around him.
          >>
          >> He’s also wearing KHAKIS… which easily identifies him from
          >> a distance.

          Speaking of ‘easily identifiable light-lemon-yellow shirt and khakis’…

          I think it’s pretty safe to say that not only is that FF with the black helmet in the WORLDNEWS ‘photo in question’ Cougan Carothers… the FF right next to him ( facing the camera ) with that light-lemon-yellow shirt, khakis, white helmet and chest harness is, without a doubt, Rance Marquez.

          In the Blue Ridge Hotshot Papich photos taken of that meeting that Rance Marquez and Cougan Carothers had earlier in the day out in the Sesame area… there is that same ‘easily identifiable’ light-lemon-yellow shirt and khakis.

          He is standing 3rd from the left in that group of 4 FFs seen ‘meeting’ there at the top of the Sesame area.

          That has to be Rance Marquez… so the odds that is also Rance Marquez second from the left in that WORLDNEWS ‘photo in question’ are high enough ( I think ) to call it a done deal. It’s him.

          Reply

      • I’m not feeling as “done” as you are with this. And I’m just waking up after something of a rough night. But one of the reasons I’m not feeling as “done” as you are is that I never was able to be “done” with it, as hard as I tried. I really hated (and still do) working on this endless rabbit (at least it was a rabbit hole for me) that I worked on for endless amounts of time until I just finally got sick of doing it and moved on to where everybody else was at.

        I guess I missed where we talked about this and resolved it way back when. Because I resolved it all quite differently then. But it was always fraught with headaches for me and it still is. (There are still headaches in the collection that I haven’t even mentioned).

        But you may be right. Which may resolve some of the issues I walked away from this still seeing. And there are some other issues in this that I haven’t even mentioned. But I didn’t think anybody was all that interested, so I walked away from this mess and let it be a year and a half ago.

        Who do you think the person on the far left of the group lined up in Papich’s photo is? I went through a LOT of comparing photos of Gary Cordes with that person and publicly determined that that person on the end was Gary Cordes, regardless of Marquez narrative (which has a NUMBER of holes in it). The discrepancy between Marquez’ narrative and this photo (among a number of OTHER discrepancies) has left me totally scratching my head, and not even remotely trusting Marquz’ narrative.

        If you look at that photo again, you will see that that lower-slung truck with the camper shell is sitting right behind the big truck without the camper shell, sandwiched right between the big truck and the Granite Mountain Hotshots buggy.

        A number of times I called out that photo that was taken by Joy, and asked, “WTF is Cougan Carothers doing up there in that area before he should have been?????”

        Nobody responded, “Hey, Marti, that’s not Cougan’s truck, that’s Gary’s truck!!!!!!” That might have shifted my thinking a LOT earlier………………..maybe.

        So you may be right that I have the trucks switched. I hadn’t seen that nomex elbow in the video.

        So here’s another riddle-me-this. I don’t think you are right on your ID of Rance Marquez in those later photos. But who knows??

        In the Papich photo, one of the two guys on the right has khaki colored pants and the other has dark green pants. I happen to think the one in the khaki pants is Cougan Carothers and the one in the dark green pants is Rance Marquez.

        That would mean you are incorrect in your Rance ID.

        I happen to think that, in the Tom Story photos, and have said so periodically, that Rance Marquez is in that huddle over the IMT truck hood (a truck which carries another set of headaches), looking exactly like he does in the Papich photo.

        Here’s the problem. In the video (and thanks finally for the timestamp — something I asked for repeatedly way back when because I desperately needed it, and didn’t want to get the software because I really really wanted to quit doing this, but I didn’t get any response way back when, and, yeah, I had missed that nomex elbow completely)………

        There is nobody in the video wearing dark green pants. So that’s been another migraine headache for me all along. That might mean that Rance isn’t even in that video. Who knows???????

        I have all along thought that Gary Cordes was, by around 4:15 PM, busily overseeing that evacuation of that subdivision northeast of Shrine Road. Since I still don’t have my hard-drives, and, thus access to all my files, can somebody check Gary’s interview and notes and confirm to me that he wasn’t?

        Maybe he did just sit there for another 25 minutes at that great place to watch the fire after Paul Musser left and headed to Yarnell to do who knows what.

        But I’m currently not conviced.

        Another big problem in figuring out the timing of this all is that the Air2Air video only shows Rance crossing the camera, not Cougan, although they most likely did it about the same time, all things considered. Cougan must have crossed during the break in the video before Rance crossed it. Since I don’t have my files (including my extensive vehicle timelines), I can’t calculate when Rance crossed it, but it was at 0:03:27,15 on the 20130630_1626_EP.MOV video.

        There’s another photo of Rance’s truck and the camper-covered truck being all buddy-buddy (as were Rance and Cougan all through this thing), and that’s an overhead photo, taken at 10:27 AM on July 1. Actually, there a number of vehicles I was trying to identify in that photo. It is IMG_0605.JPG in the Miscellaneous Photos folder inside the ASFD Photos folder inside the Photos and Video Folder inside the ADOSH Yarnell Hill Investigation Parent Folder.

        Here’s the link to the photo: https://www.dropbox.com/sh/20inrene9tcx74a/AAB0NBgR8c6fmlKi5wgpccmqa/ADOSH%20Yarnell%20Hill%20Investigation/Photos%20and%20Video/ASFD%20Photos/Miscellaneous%20Photos/IMG_0605.JPG?dl=0

        So, I guess I’m saying that, from my point of view, and my experience in this campfire circle, it isn’t as simple, and hasn’t been as simple, as you are making it seem.

        And I’m still not completely convinced of all that you are saying. For the reasons I’ve written.

        But some of it may be correct.

        Reply

  35. I apologize for the weirdness of the threads down below regarding the photos and the attempts to identify the people in them.

    But sometimes that’s just how conversations here regarding things just go.

    This is always an evolving work in progress.

    Namaste.

    Reply

    • Marti,

      Thanks for all the photo work you did below. It helped me. However, I can’t help you with identifying Rance Marquez. I don’t know if that is him in the last link you provided below.

      Reply

      • Thanks, Robert the Second. It’s fine. Especially now that I realized the person in the black helmet we were discussing wasn’t Rance, but Cougan.

        Reply

    • **
      ** PHOTO SHOWING GARY CORDES DRIVING DOWN HIGHWAY 89
      ** TOWARDS THE RANCH HOUSE RESTAURANT

      Reply to Marti Reed post October 10, 2015 at 12:54 am

      >> Marti said…
      >>
      >> I apologize for the weirdness of the threads down below regarding the
      >> photos and the attempts to identify the people in them.
      >>
      >> But sometimes that’s just how conversations here regarding things just go.

      Absolutely.

      The latest “who was where, when” roundup was actually just kicked off by Gary Olson wondering if anyone in that post-deployment photo taken at the Ranch House Restaurant might have been the one who made that ‘status check’ callout to Granite Mountain circa 4:13 PM.

      The answer is still just ‘perhaps’.

      These multiple cannot-be-denied radio captures of various people communicating directly with DIVSA Eric Marsh and Granite Mountain during the same timeframe when Mike Dudley and Jim Karels and the SAIT decided to say they could not ‘verify’ that anyone was doing any such thing aren’t going away… and every time we do another ’roundup’ we actually get close to figuring out WHO some of those ‘communicators’ might be.

      According to the radio captures… we are actually still talking about probably at least THREE DIFFERENT PERSONS having these ‘direct communications’ with Marsh and GM during the time when (supposedly) no one was doing that.

      But more about that in a minute.

      As long as we are still doing another “who was where, when” roundup… I wanted to be sure you didn’t miss one of those photos that Joy Collura found and distributed ( with full permission of the people who took the photos ) back in July.

      ONE of those photos, taken by Anna Marie Lechner, captures the moment when Gary Cordes when coming down Highway 89 from the Norton Way area and towards the Ranch House Restaurant.

      There was no definite timestamp in the EXIF data for this photo… but based on a glimpse of the fire ( in the background of the photo ) actually coming INTO the Norton way area… the TIME appears to have been right around 4:45 PM.

      Gary Cordes’ vehicle would then be seen in the Russ Reason video taken circa 4:50 PM… so that means this new photo proves that Cordes had NOT been at the RHR for any length of time before the Russ Reason video. He, apparently, has just arrived there.

      That calls a few parts of Gary Cordes’ testimony to ADOSH into question… but more about that later.

      I just wanted to be sure you had seen this Anna Marie Lechner photo.

      I turned it into a new YouTube video… with annotations.

      That YouTube video is HERE…

      Video Title: Gary-Cordes-on-Highway-89
      http://youtu.be/D2NdGmRqS_U

      Here’s the 411 on this Anna Marie Lechner photo…

      At approximately 4:45 PM on June 30, 2013… Anna Marie Lechner was sitting in the driver’s seat of her car parked in a store lot on the EAST side of Highway 89, just 1 block SOUTH of where Shrine Road meets Highway 89.

      She took 3 different photos ( looking NORTH ) while sitting in her car.

      The THIRD photo captures Gary Cordes’ CYFD command vehicle passing by her, heading SOUTH on HIghway 89.

      There is FIRE seen in the background of the photo and a plot of that location against Google Earth indicates the fire shown in the photo was near the ‘Norton Way’ area… where Gary Cordes had been ( according to his ADOSH testimony ) making sure people were evacuating, just prior to heading down to the Ranch House Restaurant.

      Gary Cordes told ADOSH he did NOT hear the actual 4:39 – 4:43 PM MAYDAY and subsequent deployment radio traffic coming over the Air-To-Ground channel.

      According to Cordes… he had lost the ability to TRANSMIT over the Air-To-Ground channel prior to the deployment because the switch on his BK portable took a dump. He switched to his backup Motorola units which ( he said ) didn’t have the Air-To-Ground channel programmed in and he was somehow either unable to change the programming, add a channel, or just didn’t know how to… or something like that.

      Regardless… Cordes told ADOSH he wasn’t even AWARE there had been a deployment until after he arrived at the Ranch House Restaurant and was told about it by Engine Captain Reyes.

      Cordes also told ADOSH his initial reaction to the news from Reyes was…

      “BULLSHIT! They had plenty of time to get there, and they were already
      in their bomb proof safety zone”.

      Reyes then (apparently) told Cordes “No… they got cut off”.

      Actually… here is exactly what Gary Cordes told ADOSH…

      ————————————————————————
      1728 It was Engine 59 that told me that
      1729 they had transmitted over the radio, over air to ground that they had deployed
      1730 and I, and I, it was Charlie Reyes whose the, whose the engine boss down
      1731 there and I told him BS, that uh, they didn’t need to deploy ‘cause the safety’s,
      1732 they were in their safety zone and it was bomb proof and he said no, they
      1733 never got – made it there, they got cut off. And that’s when I knew obviously
      1734 something bad had most likely occurred.
      ————————————————————————

      So that’s just one more account ( from Cordes himself ) that Cordes had absolutely NO DOUBTS where Granite Mountain was going… and in what timeframe they had started the move…. when NO ONE ELSE who ever testified to ADOSH ever admitted to having that same specific knowledge.

      Reply

      • Thanks for that, WTKTT, but that’s not Gary’s truck. That’s Cougan’s.

        Gary’s truck is the bigger open-bed truck.

        Cougan’s is the smaller covered-bed truck.

        That’s why the first thing I thought, when I read about Gary’s truck pulled into the RHR parking lot in the Russ Reason video was, “Wait, that wasn’t Gary’s truck, that was Cougan’s.”

        It’s easy to mix the two up. But they’re different.

        Reply

        • Gary’s truck is shown in Swartz’s 20130630_1843__AZ-A15-000688__YARNELL_FB_1_G_RS.JPG. Which, since we were talking about it yesterday, is linked down below.

          Reply

        • Reply to Marti Reed post on October 10, 2015 at 3:16 pm

          >> Marti Reed said…
          >>
          >> Thanks for that, WTKTT, but that’s not Gary’s truck. That’s Cougan’s.

          This might turn into a “smoke ’em if ya got ’em” moment for people who don’t see the point in knowing, fer sure, who was driving what vehicle that day…

          …but I think you have it backwards. I really do.

          See the following new parent comment above which presents some of the evidence that I *thought* we had already covered which proves it was the other way around…

          http://www.investigativemedia.com/yarnell-hill-fire-chapter-xvi/#comment-311249

          Reply

        • Cougan is the one with the crossed sweatmarks on his back. Rance is the other one, in a black baseball cap.

          It drove me nuts trying to figure out who the guy in the white helmet was. I’m now thinking it could easiy be Tony Sciacca, thanks to Aaron’s videos.

          The guy in the blue helmet is from the Moki Helitack Crew, I’m pretty sure.

          Reply

          • OK. I”m going to confess something here.

            Ever since yesterday evening, I have been trying to pin down exactly when and why I decided the guy with the crossed sweatlines was Cougan and the guy without them was Rance.

            One of the reasons I decided was when a light-bulb went on in my head looking at all those photos with the guy with the crossed sweatlines and the guy I still think is Cordes together in the RHR parking lot. It just all of a sudden made sense to me that both of the CYFD Chiefs would have been together at that time in that situation.

            The other thing that I decided on was the David Kadlubowski photo of the parking lot that shows Rance Marquez sitting in his blue truck. He has a baseball cap, not a helmet, on his head.

            Here’s that famous photo (a slightly desaturated version of it that I don’t remember where I found it):

            https://www.dropbox.com/s/8xfj9mhwex3wepo/DavidPhotoRance.jpg?dl=0

            This doesn’t mean I’m POSITIVE about these two in the photos. It just says how I got there.

            I don’t have anything more definitive than that.

            Reply

      • REPLY IN CAPS BELOW TO:
        As long as we are still doing another “who was where, when” roundup… I wanted to be sure you didn’t miss one of those photos that Joy Collura found and distributed ( with full permission of the people who took the photos ) back in July.

        ONE of those photos, taken by Anna Marie Lechner, captures the moment when Gary Cordes when coming down Highway 89 from the Norton Way area and towards the Ranch House Restaurant. I SENT THE YOUTUBE LINK TO HER AND EITHER MONDAY OR WEDNESDAY WE WILL SPEND SOME IN PERSON TIME TOGETHER—ACTUALLY I TOLD HER SHE CAN USE MY MIGUN (http://www.migunworld.com/products.php ) WHEN SHE STOPS BY TO GET A SHIRT— SO ANY OTHER QUESTIONS ASK AWAY— I WILL MAKE SHE GETS THEM ASAP

        There was no definite timestamp in the EXIF data for this photo… but based on a glimpse of the fire ( in the background of the photo ) actually coming INTO the Norton way area… the TIME appears to have been right around 4:45 PM.

        SHE CAN ANSWER THAT. SHE LIVES RIGHT BEHIND THE PLACE OF BARBARA HAMILTON’S AND SHE WAS DRIVING FROM HER HOME OUT THE ROAD CALLED HOPE WAY WHICH IS DIRECTLY ACROSS FROM POST OFFICE

        Gary Cordes’ vehicle would then be seen in the Russ Reason video taken circa 4:50 PM… so that means this new photo proves that Cordes had NOT been at the RHR for any length of time before the Russ Reason video. He, apparently, has just arrived there.I THOUGHT I HEARD IT WAS NOT GARY’S PHOTO BACK IN JULY—MAYBE I AM WRONG…

        At approximately 4:45 PM on June 30, 2013… Anna Marie Lechner was sitting in the driver’s seat of her car parked in a store lot on the EAST side of Highway 89I WOULD THINK SHE WAS ON HOPE WAY BUT CONFIRM THIS WEEK WHEN SHE IS HERE

        Reply

        • Reply to Joy A. Collura post on October 10, 2015 at 6:20 pm

          >> Joy A. Collura said…
          >>
          >> I SENT THE YOUTUBE LINK TO HER AND EITHER MONDAY
          >> OR WEDNESDAY WE WILL SPEND SOME IN PERSON TIME
          >> TOGETHER… SO ANY OTHER QUESTIONS ASK AWAY

          The most important thing is whether or not she remembers EXACTLY what TIME that photo was taken.. OR… if she still has the actual ORIGINAL photo that might still have an accurate EXIF timestamp embedded in it.

          There’s a discussion that’s continuing up above about whether not it was Gary Cordes or Cougan Caruthers driving that particular truck that day… but regardless of that.. it’s still a VERY important photo and it would be great if we could nail down the EXACT time it was taken.

          >> WTKTT said…
          >>
          >> There was no definite timestamp in the EXIF data for this
          >> photo… but based on a glimpse of the fire ( in the background
          >> of the photo ) actually coming INTO the Norton way area…
          >> the TIME appears to have been right around 4:45 PM.
          >>
          >> Joy A. Collura responded…
          >>
          >> SHE CAN ANSWER THAT. SHE LIVES RIGHT BEHIND THE
          >> PLACE OF BARBARA HAMILTON’S AND SHE WAS DRIVING
          >> FROM HER HOME OUT THE ROAD CALLED HOPE WAY
          >> WHICH IS DIRECTLY ACROSS FROM POST OFFICE

          Yes. That is EXACTLY where she was when she took those 3 photos looking NORTH on Highway 89. “Hope Way” is 1 block south of where the Shrine Road meets Highway 89. She was right there where Hope Way meets Highway 89 on the EAST side of the Highway.

          >> Joy Collura also said…
          >>
          >> I THOUGHT I HEARD IT WAS NOT GARY’S PHOTO BACK
          >> IN JULY—MAYBE I AM WRONG…

          There is a discussion ongoing up above about that right now. There IS compelling evidence that Gary Cordes WAS driving that CYFD pickup WITH the camper top that day.

          >> Joy A. Collura also said…
          >>
          >> I WOULD THINK SHE WAS ON HOPE WAY BUT CONFIRM
          >> THIS WEEK WHEN SHE IS HERE

          Yes. She was ( at intersection of Hope Way and Hwy 89 ).

          That’s already confirmed.

          What we need to know is does she remember the exact TIME… and/or does she still have an original copy of the photo that might have an accurate TIME/DATE stamp?

          Reply

  36. **
    ** BRENDAN MCDONOUGH – SELF INFLICTED INJURY?

    Huge disclaimer: Brendan McDonough is still listing his ‘occupation’ on his PUBLIC Facebook page as “Public Figure”… and the posts he is making there are also totally PUBLIC. You don’t even have to be a ‘Friend’ of Brendan’s to see all the posts he makes.

    HELPFUL TIP FOR ANYONE/EVERYONE: If you do NOT want some of your Facebook ( or Twitter ) posts to be read by the general public… then you MUST set some kind of ‘privacy’ level for them other than ‘totally PUBLIC’. Google itself knows how to ‘see’ public posts on both Facebook and Twitter… so even if someone is just doing a ‘Google’ search for something else ( like recent newspaper articles ) Google will still return direct links to PUBLIC Facebook and Twitter posts.

    Just yesterday… Brendan made one of ongoing ‘public’ announcements regarding all these speaking engagements he is doing. The most recent one was a guest speaker at an event at the Milwaukee Fire Academy.

    There is still no word about what Brendan is actually SAYING in these speeches/talks he is doing.

    But just below that speaking engagement post is another TOTALLY PUBLIC post ( with a picture ) that Brendan made just 72 hours ago… on Tuesday, October 6, 2015.

    The post is Brendan himself talking ( to anyone and everyone ) about what appears to be a recent self-inflicted injury.

    He also posted a totally PUBLIC photo of the damage he did to himself.

    Brendan’s PUBLIC Facebook page is here…

    https://www.facebook.com/brendan.j.mcdonough

    The PHOTO he posted… and then commented on… is of his own hand and it shows a huge, ugly, nasty GASH on the inside of the thumb on his left hand.

    It appears ( from the comments Brendan himself makes that accompany this photo ), that the wound was NOT the result of a pure accident.

    Since that post is/was TOTALLY PUBLIC… here is exactly what he said…

    ——————————————————————
    Brendan Mcdonough – October 6 at 8:47pm ·

    Well this happened today, more mad at myself because I thought the world was working against me when it’s vice versa. I was slamming t post hard for the wrong reasons. Sometimes I have to stop, breathe and understand no matter what I go through he’s got me Gods got me. He’s proven it time and time but I fail to listen. Thank you God for always finding ways to teach me lessons even tho some are harder than I would like.
    ——————————————————————

    So Brendan’s own ( totally PUBLIC ) comments seem to indicate it wasn’t a complete accident.

    That really is a nasty gash… and I hope Brendan gets that properly taken care of.
    It really looks like it needed to be stitched.

    As Marti continually reminds us… the Yarnell fire is, in fact, STILL BURNING.

    Reply

    • The first thing that came to my mind:

      West Side Story – Gee Officer Krupke! (1961) HD

      “DIESEL: (As Judge) Right!

      Officer Krupke, you’re really a square;
      This boy don’t need a judge, he needs an analyst’s care!
      It’s just his neurosis that oughta be curbed.
      He’s psychologic’ly disturbed!

      ACTION
      I’m disturbed!

      JETS
      We’re disturbed, we’re disturbed,
      We’re the most disturbed,
      Like we’re psychologic’ly disturbed.”

      https://youtu.be/j7TT4jnnWys

      Reply

      • A t post is a metal post used in fencing. He was slamming it hard for the wrong reason. No one says it was because of yarnell… Just my opinion

        Reply

        • Yes… but it’s still odd what Brendan actually SAYS about what happened… and the WAY he was describing the incident.

          Even most of the ‘commenters’ on that PUBLIC Facebook ‘announcement’ he made ( with injury photo ) seemed to be ‘reading a lot’ into what Brendan had said… and the comments were assuming he was talking about some kind of ’emotional crisis’ that was more than just someone having an accident putting in a fence post.

          I truly hope Brendan is not ‘still in crisis mode’. I really do.

          Reply

    • I have no clue when Sonny will read this but I haven’t been around him since TDW stopped by but I do look forward to his remarks on this topic—the man who can have a chainsaw hit his leg and have it so bad bloody and dangling with no ER but keeps on going like no big deal…

      Yet I believe peoples perceptions are quite imbalanced on topic of the use of the word ACCIDENT

      pet peeve of mine I guess

      People saying like Donut on ABC interview that this was not a bad decision-
      yet 19 lives are lost-
      with much information still out there not yet public—
      ???
      really.
      what is going on???
      why Donut— it does hurt me deeply because Donut has seen me in person a few times but never could look me in the eyes—like I am some disgusting person type of gal you would not want to be caught talking to—
      I named alot of people on I M who should be talking but in a recent overhearing conversation a few in the aerial field that was present for the YHF—they can help on missing elements too as well as some media archives that are no longer public.

      A few years back I got a knock on my door from YCSO—they stated my neighbor was aware of my perimeter cameras and wondered if I had any footage of three boys next door jumping off the roof on to the trampoline badly injuring a preteen sports hero and I said probably because my cameras cover 2 feet above my fencing area to capture anyone jumping in or out of my yard but I had no interest in helping anyone out without a court order because I keep to myself. When the other neighbor got wind I might have footage she came right up to my face in a toned spit in my face way stating “my daughter was in a car accident…do you think I want footage of that?”…keep in mind the footage shows not good for her kid and two others— my reply to her besides I did not and was not showing my perimeter footage to anyone and my reply to her/Donut when in this interview (http://www.cbsnews.com/news/brendan-mcdonough-hotshot-who-survived-deadly-arizona-fire-opens-up/) he feels he was spared what he calls a “horrible, freak accident.”
      HELLO!!!
      reallyyyy…..
      Like I told my neighbor and Donut and the world now—
      There are accidents…yet there is also the calculations of the other A word—
      AVOIDABILITY
      Donut, your recent injury—was it a accident or something avoidable just like the results we saw on the YHF?

      I define accident different.
      Like by accident I got pulverized by a football star at North High back in the 80’s when I was not even at the school long—pretty new student– and knew no one. 14 black women came up to me and said “I heard you are telling people you are pregnant with Cedrick’s baby”…I replied “I am new to the school and wrong person”…she aggressively thrusted her body into mine and said “don’t lie to me b i t c *—that’s my bo–you watch it—I am going to kill you.” A song artist named Teddy walked by and told them to knock it off or he would tell security. They walked off. As I was going up the stairs Teddy said “you new here” and I said yes…he said no white gal like you needs to be in a school like this…leave now…the people you just saw will have you killed by the end of the day. I did not believe it. I am in English Lit. and this very strong black man removed my chair that links to desk with ME in it outside and I remember just like it happened—so strong of a memory—
      he grabbed me by the throat out of the desk with chair connection and threw me up against the brick building with full force and starting pounding me with a might I never felt first to my face different areas than to my stomach than one hit took my breath completely out of me and I was down on the ground. I knew my eyes were messed up because it was hard to see and I was gushing blood. I see noone around but him. I heard the door to the classroom open but I cant scream or barely breathe but I have no clue why or how I did the following but as soon as his attention drew to the door opening I bolted into the building running up the stairs THINKING I would be safe in girls bathroom. I lock the stall using the toilet water to wash the blood off my eyes that were burning badly when the blood glazed over my face. I felt wrong person…I would hate to be that girl they think I am..and then I thought I hate to be me— that they think I am this other person. Was this an accident or wrong place wrong time…how does one define it. I really took a blow so hard I was barely breathing…blood was everywhere…I finally heard the door and I stood on toilet in so much pain…and this guy tore the door off the stall and again grabbed me like a football tackle and grabbed my head and forced it in the toilet. Every ounce I am typing is facts. I am being drowned. I think HOW COME LORD??? Why me? I feel I am going to die now. Is this an accident or avoidable…how do you define it…what could I have done different when others thought I was someone else? An older lady school teacher comes in and sees me in such poor condition but does not help me instead she says to Cedrick—you have to go—we have a big game and we can’t have this—I will cover for you–the lady and him leave—I try to use sink but water was not coming out plus I knew I had to leave—I run into that Teddy black guy and he said follow him—he said I could not have security or anyone see me and told me to climb a wired up fence—I thought why—I am going to the nurse office and he said yo beotch yose haz to gits—you do not get it—theysa gunna killz ya—don’t ever come back to this school. That was just the start to a very bad day indeed—because it would take me in a novel way to explain the rest that played out but let’s just say I survived the day and night but not by much…all the while my father was employed by Joe Arpaio and it was award day awhile after that bad day and one of the folks receiving an award and accolades for saving a life almost took mine that BAD day…
      I think there are accidents…but losing people I loved from 9-11 to the insidious diseases plaguing the world and my loved ones….I do believe the label ACCIDENTS is thrown so loose out in the world much too loose like the words I LOVE YOU….I gave the luv ya world a try and look where it got me…when it was meant with warmth to try and connect to people near my age when all my life I do for the elders and children at a safe distance…I have no clue to connect but I can ramble and I can share with purity my life and especially my weekend of the YHF in HOPES it brings clarity to ANYONE trying to properly assess this fire.

      I for one do not think Donut’s hand was an accident but something avoidable—

      I think for me personally it would be a honor to meet Frisby and Eric Tarr and that is just me—
      those two I have a respect for—-and would by their YHF book.

      We are having too much system and not enough individualism.

      Reply

      • We are no longer celebrated for what we are capable of accomplishing, but what we own and might own at whatever means to achieve it; honestly or not. sad.

        I could care less about what I have or don’t have as far as owning but I do care about Sonny….my family and friends and backyard critters-

        That has been WHY I always liked going back on the trails with Sonny no matter the hyde ways of the dew—he is genuine…much like I stepped into an ol’ Zane Grey western novel yet its REAL and in this day not a hundred years ago—

        Most have become conformists, so much in the pursuit of short-term happiness and gratification, that we are willing to endure corruption, degradation, and disenfranchisement…we helped raise those powers to be to have such disrespected bent behaviors, who’s influence decides the culture and morals of its citizens versus allowing people to be who they were born to be. They are given too much control.

        The time for individualism no longer belongs to the past; we must EMBRACE it today.

        It may mean hard times or chaos, but through it we will encounter some form of the sublime through our continued effort to perfect the balance between freedom and unity.

        I wish those MISSING ELEMENTS had that UNIFIED feeling to be FREE to SPEAK UP!

        Too much emphasis on the enormous pride of brotherhood and your calling is what’s keeping some of you from speaking aloud but what about the rest?

        This to me…19 heroes was and is an unbearable loss…
        I was crushed down by some black force before but nothing as hard as the crushing weight to my heart that more have not spoke up yet…

        I am physically sagged…drained…but going to see some ol celeb pals tomorrow so looking forward to that…maybe perk me up or maybe tomorrow is the day I do shave my head…

        question to people like Donut…where do you think when watching the fire walls as we did 6-30-13 was the weakening part besides you not sharing with purity to the world since then… it has been a selective way…you don’t believe me Donut—go ask local business owner and staff and church members…they told me different accounts of you sharing and to me…I stay with being pure because Mark Twain said it If you tell the truth, you don’t have to remember anything. I think you perceived that quote that TRUTH means you don’t have to remember anything…a lie travels faster than the truth…MISSING ELEMENTS please give us the time and interest on I M that we all deserve…

        Reply

  37. There are some African Americans who have fought wildfire over the years from Northern Arizona (and I’m sure other places as well besides Region 8, the south). And yes, WTKTT, all joking aside, there are pockets of African American families who have lived around Flagstaff and McNary, Arizona for almost 100 years.

    They were brought to that area by Southwest Forest Industries from Louisiana back in the 1920’s or 30’s as cheap labor when Southwest relocated all of its operations from there after they shut down their timber business in the south and moved to Northern Arizona. Talk about culture shock.

    I don’t think any of them have Cajun accents anymore though, or at least I haven’t heard any Cajun accents from the guy’s I have known over the years. The only African American I have ever seen on a Coconino Hotshot crew was on my crew and his family did come from Louisiana. But they are only a few out of tens of thousands of Anglo’s, Hispanics and Native Americans who have fought wildfires in the west.

    My original point is this…whoever that guy is in that photo or made that call on the radio in a Cajun accent, there are hundreds of people who know exactly who they/he are, and in fact…THEY even may be reading our experiment in social media and I wish someone would email me and tell me all of the things I want to know so I can spend more time playin’ on my ATV’s without thinking about all of the important things we still don’t know.

    [email protected]

    And FYI…wildland firefighting is one of the great melting pots of America and has been for decades. It is probably even a better melting pot than the U.S. military, which usually gets high marks in that area. In fact, both of my primary sponsors and mentors as a hotshot crew boss were Hispanic Fire Management Officers, and they never held my pasty white Scandinavian skin against me at all. I’m not saying there isn’t racism in the business, it’s just very rare.

    Now if you are a woman, or gay…now that hasn’t traditionally been such a rosy scenario, but maybe it is better today than it was back in the day?

    Reply

    • Well…I now realize this entire race discussion is just one more rabbit trail since it now appears that the sighting of an African American wildland firefighter on the Yarnell Hill Fire is probably false. Method reported down below it is the blue emergency light that is most likely giving them the blue smurf color. It is still unknown however, it there could have been a Cajun on the fire or not?

      Say…I have a great idea, why don’t some of YOU PEOPLE who are sitting on all of this information just come out from behind the circled wagons and give it up? It is the right thing to do. The GMIHC will still be heroes. Like I have said before, the truth didn’t change how Pat Tillman is viewed by the public.

      But for anyone who is interested in this particular rabbit trail as a historical reference point, and now that I think about it…I have NEVER even seen an Asian American wildland firefighter. I’m not saying they aren’t out there, I’m just saying I have never seen one.

      Reply

      • Sorry, I’ve been in a class all day.

        When I first looked at that image, way back when, I did say I thought that fire-fighter with the yellow helmet, facing away from the camera, was black. And then, once I realized that photo wasn’t related to what I was pursuing, I dropped it.

        I have shot TONS of photos of performances with stage lighting, and it can get really weird, so I’m used to it and have done lots of editing (or not) to make those images look better (or not). I think my eye is basically as accurate as WTKTT’s ear.

        Since I still haven’t schlepped my five hard drives over, I can’t go back and look at how I looked at that photo back then.

        But I did re-download it and just color-corrected it in Lightroom (at least for that fire-fighter) by white-balancing on the black band on his helmet.

        Here is that white-balanced photo:

        https://www.dropbox.com/s/c6y0xjew9g5rpok/2618563_G.jpg?dl=0

        I also desaturated some of the red (also from the lights). So in this corrected image, everybody else’s skin tones look pretty normal. Well, Cory’s face (if that’s Cory) still looks a little purple, but that’s the headaches of mixed high-contrast low-light photography!!

        His skin is still very dark, compared to everybody else’s. And it still has something of a blue tone. So I’m still thinking he’s Black.

        There’s something pinging me from inside my memory banks that is saying there was a Black fire-fighter in one of Tom Story’s photos, but I could be mistaken on that.

        I definitely think this may be a bit of a rabbit-hole, but hey you just never know where a rabbit hole might go!!

        And I agree that just because a Black fire-fighter shows up in Central Arizona, that doesn’t mean he would have an intense southern cajun drawl.

        Sure would be nice if somebody in the know would chime in!!!!

        Reply

        • PS I also work on a color-calibrated monitor.

          Yours might not be. Which might make a difference as to how you see these things.

          Reply

          • Based on what I see he could be Indian or Hispanic as well.
            Also the BR crewman is Probably not Ball as he has no Radio or a Pencil/pin and note book in his shirt pocket Thus a Crewman.
            My 2 cents

            Reply

        • And also. The guy to camera right of the fire-fighter in question is Ed Temerowski, the Fire Chief of the Wickenburg Fire Department.

          And the guy to the camera left of him is, I”m pretty sure, Dan Philbin from the BLM, who took over Structure Protection from Gary Cordes that night . The guy to camera left of HIM, in the black helmet, is………..I have no clue.

          Reply

          • Reply to Marti Reed post on October 8, 2015 at 8:28 pm

            >> Marti said…
            >>
            >> And the guy to the camera left of him is, I”m pretty
            >> sure, Dan Philbin from the BLM, who took over Structure
            >> Protection from Gary Cordes that night .

            I agree. There’s one or two Tom Story photos that seem to show Dan Philbin as well right after he’d parked his truck on the WEST side of Highway 89 and exited it… but even though he’s farther away in those photos it looks like the same fella here facing the camera on the left side of this photo ( with the white helmet and chest harness ).

            >> Marti also wrote…
            >>
            >> The guy to camera left of HIM, in the black
            >> helmet, is………..I have no clue.

            That fella shows up in a number of Tom Story photos even prior to Frisby and Brown departing the RHR parking lot for their ‘ground rescue mission’. In one… he’s just leaning on the back of a Prescott Fire pickup while the other are huddled near the Blue Ridge UTV.

            He’s never been identified… but he seems to be just a ‘grunt’ ( as in… not a member of fire command that day ).

            The thing to keep in mind here is that THIS photo that Gary posted the link and that is getting re-examined was definitely talking well AFTER the deployment itself. The location of the ‘fires’ in the background indicated it could have been as late as 5:30 or so… almost an hour after the deployment.

            So yes… anyone in the RHR area could have been making all those various ‘callouts’ to Granite Mountain prior to the deployment like “Wuz yo status rat now?” and “10-4 Are you with Granite Mountain”… but this photo was taken long after those radio callouts.

            I am NOT ‘absolutely sure’ the person asking ( at 4:13 PM )…

            “Granite Mountun, ( 1 word. Fire? Five? ), Wuz yo status rat now”

            …is a ‘Cajun’ at all. It’s just that I have know people who WERE and his ‘accent’ sounds like that’s what it COULD be. Cajun is different from just a regular ‘southern’ accent.

            But one of the key things here, also, is that if this person is the same one who then came back moments after that and said to Marsh…

            “10-4 Are you with Granite Mountain?”

            …seems to have acknowledged Marsh’s report about “the guys are making their way out the escape route” with the phrase TEN-FOUR instead of the usual COPY or COPY THAT.

            I think that’s unusual… and it should help to identify him.

            With all the radio transmissions captured… this is the ONLY time I am hearing ANYONE acknowledge someone’s last transmission with the phrase TEN-FOUR instead of just COPY or COPY THAT.

            Even if that person saying that is NOT the one who asked the original “Wuz yo status rat now?” question… that ‘TEN-FOUR’ response should nail down whoever that really was ( if that’s what he really said ).

            Reply

          • Marti,

            I’m gonna have to disagree with you on the one guy being Dan Philbin. That is NOT Dan Philbin.

            Reply

            • Possibly Rance Marquez?

              The evidence record says that even though most people in fire command seemed to have no idea where Rance Marquez ( DIVSZ ) was for most of the afternoon… they DO report ‘running into him’ again there at the Ranch House Restaurant following the deployment..

              So maybe that’s him ( in the white helmet, left side of photo )?

              Reply

              • Caveat: Before I get jumped on for the statement above… after the ADOSH interview transcripts became public ( thanks again to Mr. John Dougherty ) it became clear that Rance Marquez didn’t just ‘vanish’ after he had that sort-of-an-argument with Marsh circa NOON-THIRTY and then he left the south side of the fire. Marquez went back up to the school and ‘reported’ to ( Planning ) OPS2 Paul Musser… but Musser sort of blew him off because he was busy. So Marquez then just got involved with some point protection stuff that was going on up there on the NORTH end of the fire.

                When I said “most of fire-command’ didn’t seem to know where he was until they ‘ran into him’ again later at the Ranch House Restaurant… I am talking about the people in DIVSZ itself… the DIVS that Marquez was assigned earlier that day to supervise ( the southeast end of the fire which included Yarnell and Glen Ilah ).

                That would be SPGS1 Gary Cordes, BR Supt. Frisby, TLFD(t) Esquibel… and yes… both DIVSA Marsh and the actual Field OPS1 Todd Abel.

                Reply

                • Here is exactly what DIVSZ Rance Marquez himself said he did after he left the south part of the fire and returned up to the Model Creek Elementary school…

                  From Rance Marquez’s one-and-only ADOSH interview
                  on September 23, 2013…

                  ————————————————-
                  A: Well after I left the area, I went back to ICP. I tied in with uh, with Mussers. I didn’t find Todd. Explained to him what I – what I’d found and that there just wasn’t any good options there cause I couldn’t really raise them on the radios and about that time, things started to get really busy. Uh, fire intensity picked up um, tremendously about that time and um, downloaded my information what I had with Mussers and about that time, Cougan called me back and said there’s some structures being threatened right there at the junction, just across – not very far from ICP which was at Peeples Valley. Um, where was it, it was Sickles Road and something over there.
                  ————————————————-

                  So Marquez just did his ‘data dump’ to (Planning) OPS2 Paul Musser… and (apparently) received no big reaction and no further instructions from Musser about what he should be doing next.

                  Cougan Caruthers ( who had earlier been assigned to help DIVSZ Marquez that day ) then informed Marquez about things heating up over near Sickles road ( on the NORTH end of the fire )… and Marquez then left the ICP, did NOT return to the south part of the fire to supervise ‘Division Z’… and he did get involved in that Sickles Road point protection stuff.

                  Reply

            • You’re right, Robert the Second, thanks!!

              I’ve been at kind of a handicap, because I don’t have my four drives worth of “Image Library” moved and set up yet. But I just discovered my Lightroom Catalogue Previews work just fine. I have EVERYTHING from Yarnell hierarchically keyworded up the wazoo so I can compare photos every which way but Sunday, so to speak..

              So I CAN go back and look at everything, after all.

              Dan Philbin had a blue helmet (something that was whispering in my ear, (DOH BLM!) but I just now checked.

              And I think you’re right, WTKTT, about the guy in the black helmet maybe being Rance Marquez. I had the hardest time figuring out which one was Rance and which one was Cougan Carrothers in all the Tom Story Photos.

              Because most of the day they were wearing black baseball hats.

              But now I know that in that Story collection, Cougan still had his baseball hat on and Rance had switched to a black helmet.

              Another related photo to look at is Swartz’s 20130630_1844_AZ-A15-000688__YARNELL_FB_5_G_RS.JPG (sheesh the file names!!), which was taken at 6:44 PM. I think Rance is standing just behind Brian Frisby in that one. It also has Cory Ball, and the guy that I still think is Black, but Bob Powers could be right and he could be Native American or Latino. But I still think he’s Black. I think that other guy in the yellow helmet with the chest harness may be in this one, also. Along with Todd Abel’s truck.

              And also look at 20130630_1843__AZ-A15-000688__YARNELL_FB_1_G_RS.JPG, taken at 6:43 PM. That one might actually have that white-helmeted guy i mistook for Dan Philbin. It also has Brian Frisby, the two yellow-helmeted guys, Ed K, and a guy in a red helmet. Along with Gary Cordes’ truck.

              OK, my class is back on again.

              Reply

        • Your theory made sense to me except for the Blue Ridge hotshot looking blue, but I do know color on some photos some of the time is tricky. I am just glad Method got us on track.

          And I agree 100 per cent, sometimes you never know what which question will be the right one, especially with this topic.

          Reply

      • PS Chris MacKenzie (RIP- my absolute favorite of the bunch, and the one that drew me into this) was Asian-American.

        Reply

  39. Reply to Gary Olson post on October 7, 2015 at 7:07 pm

    >> Gary Olson said…
    >>
    >> I would like to know who the blue guy in this photo is and if he could be
    >> the guy who asked on the radio “Wuz yo status rat now …” ?
    >> And if he is, we need to find him and ask him “Did you make a radio
    >> call to GM about 4:15 pm that day?

    There is actually a chance that whoever was making that call out to Granite Mountain at 4:13 PM might have also supplied their CALL sign.

    Standard ‘callout’ radio protocol is ( of course )…

    Callsign of who you want to talk TO, Your own callsign, The message, ( Optional: The channel )

    The actual Panebaker audio recording has a ‘word’ following the ‘Granite Mountain’ part which MAY be that caller’s ‘call sign’.

    Actual audio capture is…

    “Granite Montun, ??, Wuz yo status rat now?”

    There is actually a WORD there between ‘Granite Montun’ and the ‘Wuz yo status rat now?’ query.

    The ?? part *might* have been the caller supplying attempting to supply their own callsign.

    Problem is… whatever that ‘word’ is there after ‘Granite Mountain’ has never been fully identified.

    Mr. Bob Powers and I discussed this at length some time ago.

    The word SOUNDS like it begins with an ‘F’ and SOUNDS like it might be the word ‘Fire’ or ‘Five’.

    Best we could figure is that perhaps this person did NOT supply their own callsign and this word was just part of the ‘TO’ prefix… and somehow this person was told the name of the outfit was ‘Granite Mountain Five’ instead of ‘Grante Mountain Seven’.

    That’s a stretch… but until there’s a better idea about what that one word might be… ( or until the person who was obviously making this radio callout admits it )… it’s a good guess.

    >> Gary Olson also said…
    >>
    >> Marti said he is African American, and well…I do get paid to ask the hard questions.

    There are African Americans in Arizona?

    All kidding aside…

    On July 12, 2013… just 12 days after the tragedy… the entire Blue Ridge Hotshot Crew appeared in public at the “Prescott Valley Mod Bogs” rally. They had volunteered to be the ones who would push vehicles out of the mud bog if/when they got stuck.

    They POSED for a ‘group photo’ at +0:09 seconds into the following PUBLIC video…

    Youtube Video Title: “Prescott Valley Mud Bogs 7 12 13”
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aVLl-oq-hoo

    There are no African Americans in the crew photo.

    Caveat: There are only 19 Blue Ridge Hot Shots in the portrait, so I guess the one that was missing *could* have been African American.

    Brian Frisby is the one kneeling on the far left, first row, wearing sunglasses.

    Reply

  40. Of course you are right and I usually put Steed in parenthesis after Marsh’s name, but I always hate doing it because;

    1. Steed was a Marine, and he did what Marines do, make their objections to their commanding officer known and then say, “Fuck it…let’s go for it!”

    2. Steed was highly confident in his physical conditioning and that of his crew, so he THOUGHT they could make it.

    3. Steed had a family to support and a really good career ahead of him with the PFD and he knew what Marsh had done to the last assistant crew boss who had crossed him for a really stupid and chicken shit reason. Really stupid and chicken shit reason especially since I took my family to Disneyland in part of my hotel points after I retired since it was official policy that we could use them since the government couldn’t.

    4. And I don’t think Marsh would have accepted the excuse that “we didn’t have time to make it”, since I think he was hell bent on playing a pivotal role in either saving Yarnell or being in the middle of it to look great for the news media and the needle dick bug fuckers on the Prescott City Council. I know Bob has said he should have agreed and then drug is feet, but Marsh wanted them to beat that flaming front to town in the worst way.

    But I know you are right…and it hurts.

    Reply

    • No… but that is definitely a ‘Blue Ridge Hothshot’ there on the right edge of the photo… and it is assumed to be Cory Ball.

      His Nomex shirt is perfectly clean. Cory Ball was with the dozer ( and its operator Paul Morin ) all day being HEQB/DOZB, and Ball never did any ‘line work’ that day.

      Reply

      • I would like to know who the blue guy in this photo is and if he could be the guy who asked on the radio “Wuz yo status rat now …” ?

        And if he is, we need to find him and ask him “Did you make a radio call to GM about 4:15 pm that day?

        Marti said he is African American, and well…I do get paid to ask the hard questions.

        Who knows his name and who he works for? If it is the USFS, he may be under a gag order but I would still like to know?

        Reply

        • Reply to Gary Olson post on October 7, 2015 at 7:07 pm

          >> Gary Olson said…
          >>
          >> I would like to know who the blue guy in this photo is and if he
          >> could be the guy who asked on the radio “Wuz yo status rat now …” ?
          >>
          >> And if he is, we need to find him and ask him “Did you make a
          >> radio call to GM about 4:15 pm that day?

          He’s definitely a Blue Ridge Hotshot.
          No mistaking the logo on the ‘Blue’ Helmet.

          Location of the photo is, fact, still the edge of the parking lot there at the Ranch House Restaurant… looking SOUTH down HIghway 89. The TIME of the photo is also well after the deployment because of the ‘spot’ fires seen there in the background. The fire didn’t engulf that area seen in the background until well after the deployment.

          It’s almost certain it was late enough that this photo was also taken AFTER the majority of the Blue Ridge Hotshots had already left the Ranch House Restaurant. So that narrows it down as to WHICH Blue Ridge Hotshot this could be still ‘hanging around’ there at the RHR.

          Frisby and Brown are still out at the deployment site… in this timeframe. They didn’t make it back to town until it was actually DARK.

          So that leaves Cory Ball and maybe just one other Blue Ridge Hotshot still ‘hanging around’ there at the RHR in this timeframe.

          As far as whether ANY of those ‘unknown persons’ there with radios ( especially the guy facing the camera with the white helmet and the wiry guy with the other white helmet and other front-chest harness ) could have been the ones heard on the radio talking to Granite Mountain during that time when no one was on the radio talking to Granite Mountain…

          …the answer is a definite ‘possible’.

          The following sort of flew by earlier but it was part of the discussion that ensued when Joy Collura found that photo of what MUST be Cory Ball standing at the intersection of Fountainhead and Lakewood in the 4:05 to 4:10 PM timeframe.

          I pointed out ( again ) that from the time OPS2 Paul Musser left his little ‘get together’ with Gary Cordes on the side of Highway 89 right after Musser first arrived on the outskirts of Yarnell… until the time we actually SEE and HEAR him saying “Everything’s going to shit” to off-the-radar PNF employee KC ‘Bucky’ Yowell in one of Aaron Hulburd’s videos…

          …we have absolutely no fucking idea exactly where OPS2 Paul was, what he was doing, or who he was talking to.

          That’s more than a half-hour at THE most critical time of the afternoon.

          Musser told ADOSH he just headed down the RHR after that ‘meeting’ with Cordes on Highway 89… but the ADOSH investigators then didn’t even ask him the next simple question… “Okay… and exactly what were you doing when you got THERE?”

          Musser admitted to making that 3:42 PM ‘availability check’ radio call out to Eric Marsh… but then basically said he was sure he never talked directly to Marsh after that.

          So here was the ‘theory’ that flew by.that might explain a few things…

          Musser DID get down to the RHR and he WAS there for a period of time while the shit was still just beginning to hit the fan in Yarnell. He WAS the ‘second active Field OPS’ on the fire at that time.

          Musser didn’t go into the RHR bathroom and read a ‘Field and Stream’ magazine for that ‘half-hour’ before he showed up on Shrine Road.

          He was doing SOMETHING ( as OPS2 ).

          What he MIGHT have been doing is what OPS people do.
          He was telling the people AROUND him to ‘do things’.

          And that means it could have been anyone.

          When ASM2 ( Bravo 33, John Burfiend ) seemed ask over the A2G channel for someone ‘down there’ to verify where DIVSA Marsh was and if (quote) “Alpha is with GM right now” circa 4:13 PM… Musser could have turned to just about anyone in that parking lot and said…

          “Hey you… what’s your name? Never mind… I don’t even care what your name is. You just heard what ASM2 asked us to do. Get on the radio and raise Granite Mountain and find out if DIVSA Marsh is actually WITH them right now”.

          Next radio transmission we then hear ( at 4:13 PM ) is…

          “Granite Mountun, ??, Wuz yo status rat now?”

          That led, 30 seconds later, to someone asking Eric Marsh directly the exact thing that ASM2 had asked them to do just moment before this whole radio exchange…

          “Are you WITH Granite Mountain right now?”

          Ditto for 4:27 PM.

          Musser could have been the one driving Cory Ball to the YFD as he was on his way back north to the Shrine area and he was just dropping Ball off there so he could borrow that ATV for the now-in-motion ’emregency dozer line’ scouting.assignment.

          But Musser could have then done his OPS2 thing and said to Ball ( at exactly 4:27 PM )…

          “I’m going inside… YOU get on the horn… find out where Marsh and Granite Mountain are and what the fuck is taking them so long to get here.”

          And that’s exactly what SOMEONE did… at exactly 4:27 PM.

          My point here is that by ‘delegating’ these radio transmissions to anybody who was near him in this timeframe… that enabled Paul Musser to sleep at night when he told ADOSH “The last time I talked to Marsh directly was earlier on at 3:42 PM”.

          Because that might be the actual truth.

          Musser might have been ‘delegating’ all those other ‘communications’ to Marsh to any number of ‘other people’ the whole time he was down there in Yarnell playing OPS2.

          So he really wasn’t (technically) lying to ADOSH in his interview about not having talked to Marsh directly at anything after his original 3:42 PM ‘availibility’ check.

          That’s the theory ( one of them ), anyway.

          But it WOULD also explain why it is that we seem to hear so many DIFFERENT voices communicating with Eric Marsh during this time that ( cough, cough ) no one was communicating with Eric Marsh.

          Marti said he is African American, and well…I do get paid to ask the hard questions.

          Who knows his name and who he works for? If it is the USFS, he may be under a gag order but I would still like to know?

          Reply

          • By the way… I was going to make sure and post down below regarding Marti’s “Okay… I’ll put it out there” post… but here is as good a place as any.

            I AGREE with Marti’s post below.

            IF some ‘plan’ was hatched to try to do ANYTHING to save ANY part of Glen Ilah… then that ‘plan’ was probably talked about right then and there on the side of Highway 89 when OPS2 Paul Musser came riding down Highway 89 on his white horse and met up with Gary Cordes, just north of where the Shrine road intersect with Highway 89.

            Based on the evidence that has been uncovered… that conversation COULD ( WARNING: Imagineering ahead. Drive slow. ) have gone something like this.

            ——————————————————————
            Musser: Hiya, Gary.
            Cordes: Hey.
            Musser: Another beautiful day in Arizona, eh?
            Cordes: Yep.
            Musser: Whadda ya got down here.
            Cordes: A fucking mess.
            Musser: I can see that… but what resources we got?
            Cordes: Not much. Coupla engines. I got a Task Force out there at the end of Shrine Road helping Blue Ridge connect the dots on some bullshit firebreak I thought we could burn off tonight… but obviously that’s all gone to shit.
            Musser: Yea. I talked with DIVSA Marsh on my way down here in the truck and he said he’s still committed to whatever he and Granite were doing up there somewhere on that ridge.
            Cordes: Well… you can call him back and tell him that’s a total waste of time now. He should have known that earlier. Any work up there at this point is like polishin’ the rails on the Titanic.
            Musser: What can we do about this Glen Ilah deal?
            Cordes: Well… I’ve still got a dozer out there. His loboy is staged right about where we’d need to punch out something if there’s any chance of stopping it from getting into Glen Ilah. Problem is… the asshole showed up without even a red-card or a radio so I had to stick Cory Ball onto that thing this morning as HEQB/DOZB. I think Ball is humpin’ one of the BR trucks out of there right now and over to the RHR… but if we’re gonna retask that dozer for Glen Ilah then we need Ball to get back out to it after he humps that BR truck to the RHR.
            Musser: Okay…. here’s what I think we should do. Do you have Marsh’s cellphone number?
            Cordes: Yep.
            Musser: Okay. You ring him up and tell him what you just told me. He’s wastin’ his time up there. You also get ahold of this Ball guy and tell him we’re not done with the dozer yet and we still need him workin’ with it. Tell him he’s gonna need to SCOUT some dozer line there near Glen Ilah. I’m gonna run down to this Ranch House Restaurant and see who we’ve got down there. YFD Chief Koile was our medical officer up there at that school and he told me just before I jumped into this mess that he’s got an ATV and other shit sitting there doin’ nuthin’ at the YFD Station. He said I could use any of that stuff if it needed to come into play down here. So I’ll wait there for this Ball guy and hump him over to YFD and get him that ATV so he can scout this dozer line ASAP.
            When you talk to Mash… tell him the plan and ask him if he can hump Granite Mountain down there to Glen Ilah. It ain’t gonna do us much good if we push line with the dozer and we got no shots to prep it.
            I think that’s about all we can try and do for this God-forsaken place at this point.
            Cordes: Sounds like a plan.
            ——————————————————————

            And then Musser left Cordes, went down Highway 89 to the Ranch House Restaurant, and proceeded to do exactly that.

            He waited there for Ball. Got him over to the YFD to get the ATV. Authorized HIM to now talk directly to Marsh and try to get him to hurry… and then Musser got wind of the chaos over on Shrine Road and drove over there to see what was going on.

            That’s when he finally ’emerges’ on the evidence record again and we see him greeting Prescott National Forest off-the-radar hire KC ‘Bucky’ Yowell with…

            KC ‘Bucky’ Yowell: Hiya Paul?
            OPSe Paul Musser: “Everthin’s going to shit”.
            KC ‘Bucky’ Yowell: ( laughing ) Yep. Everythin’s goin to shit!”

            And it most certainly was.

            Reply

            • Followup…

              And here is all that both SPGS1 Gary Cordes and OPS2 Paul Musser ACTUALLY had to say about this ‘meeting on the side of Highway 89’ when they were interviewed ( separately ) by ADOSH.

              They BOTH reference this ‘meeting’… but BOTH said very little about it and no ADOSH investigator pressed either one of them for any details.

              ** CORDES

              From SPGS1 Gary Cordes’ one-and-only ADOSH
              interview on September 11, 2013…
              ———————————————————————-
              A: Right, and Of – Musser showed up and, and met with me where I was parked on the road, asked me what I thought and I basically said this thing’s gonna move, it’s moving pretty aggressively towards town. Um, during…

              Q2: Okay.

              A: …that time, within that time frame, as you drop to the next line, the trigger point for crew rem- uh, removing the crew was met so I, I got on the, uh, told the guys to start picking up and, and getting ready to get out of the area.
              —————————————————————–

              So Cordes tells ADOSH he and Musser most certainly did ‘talk about the situation’ as soon as Musser pulled up to him… and Cordes says he started talking to Musser about how aggressively it was about to move towards town…

              …and then Cordes says “Um… “… and quickly changes the subject.

              He never actually tells ADOSH what the full conversation with Musser was ABOUT… or whether even any kind of ‘plan’ emerged from that meeting by the side of the road.

              And astonishingly… no ADOSH or WFA investigator ever said…

              “Back up the bus a minute, Gary. You said you and Musser talked about the situation as soon as he pulled up. What did the two of you decide you were gonna DO about it? Anything? Did any kind of ‘plan’ at all emerge from that conversation?”

              ** MUSSER

              And now here is what OPS2 Paul Musser said to ADOSH about this same moment when he first met Cordes on the side of the road…

              From OPS2 Paul Musser’s one-and-only ADOSH
              interview on August 16, 2013
              ————————————————–
              A: Uh, got on the 89 to a vantage point and met with Gary Cordes. Face to face with Gary. As far as – oh at that point, I’d also called Granite on their radio. Because Todd was still tied up with Model Creek. I called Granite on the radio and asked if them and Blue Ridge were still committed on the ridge? They said that they were committed on the ridge. But Blue Ridge was on the bottom and may, may be available. I talked with Gary, he said no their committed to, uh, hold – to prepping and hold the dozer line.

              Q2: You’re talking about Blue Ridge?

              A: Yes, Blue Ridge.

              Q2: Okay.

              A: And that Granite was still committed in the black…

              Q2: Okay.

              A: …up on top. Um, Gary, uh, and I talked over what the trigger points were. He pointed them out to me. Uh, and he says and they’re – they’re – I don’t know what his words exact- but anyhow they’re rapidly getting burnt over. Um, the fire now had turned and it was headed almost due south. Uh, Gary goes it’s reached my first trigger and that was for the evacuation of Yarnell, which was actually already in progress.

              Q2: Right.

              A: Uh, started getting out – and he said – and I don’t remember the exact conversation, something about and it’s gonna reach the other trigger point. I’m gonna pull them out. And I go yeah, get them out. Or I don’t know what I said. Uh, but something to that fact, that – to pull – start pulling people out. Tony Sciacca, a safety officer showed up someplace at that time.

              Q2: Uh-huh.

              A: Him and I talked briefly about the situation, what was going on and he said I’m going to Yarnell to make sure everybody gets out. Talked with Gary a little bit longer. And then I moved to Yarnell.
              ————————————————————-

              So just like Cordes… other than the ‘trigger point’ conversations… Musser also says there was ‘more to the conversation’ and he ‘Talked with Gary a little bit longer’… but no details.

              And again… no ADOSH or WFA investigator stopped him and asked…

              “Uh… talked a little longer… about WHAT?”

              Reply

        • WTKTT, It is going to take me awhile to sort out all of the info you provided, but just to be clear, the guy I was talking about is the guy in the yellow hard hat with his back to the camera. A long time ago I asked why he was a blue smurf color, and Marti replied that is because he is black.

          This is a long shot, but that is all we have at this point. Now comes one of my most famous quotes, “Based on my experience;” there were 3 very rare things that I encountered while fighting wildfire anywhere west of the Mississippi River and those 3 things are;

          1. African American wildland firefighters.
          2. Cajun wildland firefighters.
          3, Wildland firefighters that said things like, “Wuz yo status rat now …”

          So…I just wondered, is it possible there MIGHT be a connection?

          The Blue Ridge guy is a little blue as well but…

          Reply

          • If I was to guess, I’d say the reason they both look a little “blue” is due to the reflecting blue emergency lights that are all around them.

            Reply

            • That makes more sense and would explain why the Blue Ridge hotshot is so blue as well, thanks for weighing in.

              Reply

  42. Thanks to Eric Marsh, hotshots went from toiling in obscurity next to their elite brothers “The Smokejumpers”, to being infamous for making the single biggest and worst tactical mistake in the history of wildland firefighters. Oh…and then there is the fact that he killed almost his entire crew except our hapless hero who was saved by Frisby.

    Hot chick in bar talking to a hotshot;

    “What do you do?”

    “I’m an elite wildland firefighter!”

    “Oh…you must be a smokejumper”

    Epic pick up fail! But then again, they do have “Young Men and Fire”, “Red Skies Over Montana”, their own periodical and the same show business agents who are now representing our hapless hero. So….

    Reply

    • Oh, and one more thing.

      Memo to the U.S. Forest Service;

      Have you seen the quotes on the TV news recently from the NTSB who are investigating why the “El Faro” went down?

      “Our goal is to make sure this never happens again!”

      And not, “Our goal is to cloud this tragedy in fog so as not to embarrass the Maritime community, speak ill of the now presumably dead Captain, or cause his family any additional pain.”

      “Please stand by for tax payer funded official obfuscation!”

      Reply

      • Gary,

        I think you’re spot on regarding the GMHS “being infamous for making the single biggest and worst tactical mistake in the history of wildland firefighters. … and … the fact that he killed almost his entire crew except our hapless hero who was saved by Frisby.” And I include Steed as being almost as much responsible as Marsh for all this, in that he held their Crew’s life in his hands. All Steed had to do was tell Marsh “Copy, we’ll be on our way” and then turn to the guys and tell them “We’re not going anywhere until this thing pulses, then we’ll head down.”

        Since you brought up smoke-jumpers, I think this YouTube video clip is appropriate.
        https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RGOvM2u8l64

        I’m just getting back from several months of wildland fire assignments in the Pacific Northwest, and it looks like I have lots of catching up to do, even though I checked in from time to time.

        I do want to add that, from someone ‘in the know’ on the Twisp Canyon Fire: ‘The WFF’s on the left flank applied and followed LCES, the Fire Orders, as well as observed, recognized, and mitigated the Watch Out Situations, and they were just fine. However, those WFF’s on the right flank, where all the burns and fatalities occurred did NOT apply or follow LCES, did NOT follow the Fire Orders, and did NOT observe, recognize, and mitigate the Watch Out Situations.’ It’s also possible that the Right Flank WFF’s did, in fact, OBSERVE the Watch Outs occurring but did not recognize them for what they were – INDICATORS – and therefore, failed to mitigate them and just disengage and leave!

        Reply

        • And also add that the SAIT is responsible for the BIGGEST COVER-UP IN WFF HISTORY with their SAIR, particularly with the gall to claim that it was actually a “FACTUAL and Management Report.”

          And to further claim: “…, although it is easy to see in hindsight those things that turned out to be important, it is important not to engage in the COUNTERFACTUAL BY ASSUMING A REALITY THAT DID NOT EXIST FOR THE CREW. It is better to ask, ”Why might it have made sense to focus on or not to focus on those things at the time?” because others may find themselves in the same situation in the future.”

          THEY are the ones dealing in the COUNTERFACTUAL BY ASSUMING A REALITY THAT DID NOT EXIST FOR THE CREW.

          Reply

  43. Back to the Top on the Hail Mary—–
    You guys totally lost me below. The Plan was way to late and ill-advised if there was one. Your not a Hero or Heroic if you disregard all the safety of your crew and take a short cut to get some where putting your crew in danger.

    So lets back up a minuet. It would have taken the crew 75 minuets to tie in with the cat in Glen Isla. Another 1 and a half to 2 hours to put in a line and start a burn out in the highest burn period of the day. At 4 the crew left the top that means by 7 they would be able to fire the line out. By 1700 or 5 the fire was to Helms ranch. How were they going to protect helms ranch in a burn out?

    The fire was already running south by the time the Cat Boss went to scout and the Engine was ask to go to the ranch. No one was paying any attention to the fire weather. .OPS and The IC were pulling out all Fire Fighters on the line.
    I believe the only plan was between Marsh and Cordes.

    They had not finished the Cat line they had worked on all day and could not burn it out due to the winds.

    OPS had no Idea of any plan and yes you expect HS Crews to do the right thing which also includes not putting the crew in harms way. The 2 OPS and IC thought GM was in the Black old burn area.

    If any one is holding info it would be Cordes, the BR Cat boss and maybe McDonough. After the Weather Forecast any indirect line would have been fool hardy to say the lest with the wind predictions.

    It is like the Calif. Fires once the Fire starts running with the wind you are not going to stop it with Indirect Line. This kind of fire with the Flam heights would jump 4 lane Highways.

    Reply

    • Reply to Bob Powers post on October 6, 2015 at 1:42 pm

      >> Bob Powers said…
      >>
      >> Back to the Top on the Hail Mary—–
      >> You guys totally lost me below. The Plan was way to late and ill-advised
      >> if there was one. Your not a Hero or Heroic if you disregard all the safety
      >> of your crew and take a short cut to get some where putting your
      >> crew in danger.

      Thanks for inserting the ‘reality check’. I was trying to find the place below to insert the following comment of my own ( to clarify even what I said ).

      When I ( personally ) used the phrase “it would have made it all seem even more heroic if they had just admitted such a plan was in place… *IF* it really was”…

      …what I MEANT was it would have served THEIR ( Arizona Forestry ) purposes to do that.

      I ( me, personally ) still don’t think their was anything ‘heroic’ going on at all.

      If the plan even existed… it was hair-brained.

      As you just said. Too little… too late.

      There was NO REASON for those men to lose their lives that day.

      Zero. Zip. Nada.

      “Hail Mary” plan or not… the choices made represent almost the textbook definition of “depraved indifference”.

      That’s not heroism.

      I believe all the discussion below was “allowing” was that IAOI ( If And Only If ) there was this hair-brained “Hail Mary” plan in place and it had ANYTHING to do with why Marsh was trying to pull those men down to Glen Ilah “most ricky tick”…

      …then it’s still a mystery why they ( Arizona Forestry ) wouldn’t have just admitted it.

      The PRESS and the PUBLIC would have eaten that shit with a spoon and then in true Dickensian style would have held up their bowls and just said “Please, sir… can I have some more?”

      Reply

      • I would agree that there was gross error and what Bob Powers described in California wild fires jumping four lane highways once the wind takes charge was exactly what we were seeing that day. There was no stopping that fire by 11am and you can imagine what they were seeing by four pm —what caused them to think they could out run a wind change has to have an explanation. But risking the lives of 17 young and mostly inexperienced young firemen has to be most unheroic. Those young men showed their inexperience by believing their leaders were doing the right thing by the gross error of dropping them into a death trap. I say this from experience where I refused to go back into a mine drift that was showing signs of movement yet six other miners believed it was safe because they believed the shifter boss. Their lives could have been lost and as it was they went through much travail finding an air shaft to get out. Experience is the greatest teacher and if you have a boss then hope he has plenty and is not willing to give you undue risk that will kill you

        The point is leave off the BS of making this a heroic deed and leave off the statues and restricting what would have been or is a crime scene and big taxpayer cost. Say what it really was – a sign saying one of the worse fire fighting debacles in history

        Reply

      • I completely agree.

        I don’t think anything in this was actually heroic.

        But the narration could have been made to look, at least, a bit more that way. Much more so than the narration they chose which included or supported either…..

        1. it is a complete mystery, given the total lack of communication, why they incomprehensibly went down into that bowl full of explosive fuels that everybody and their brother has said they would have NEVER (stupidly) gone down into, all things considered.

        2. Or, as Darrell Willis said, “God had another plan that day,” which, I believe then morphed into the families’ narrative that they were somehow divinely swept up into heaven in order to look down and protect their families from that moment forward into eternity

        3. Or, as EN and, apparently, Holly Neill also, seem to be saying, that that awesome inscrutable fire just unpredictably did something that NO ONE could have anticipated and just swallowed them up into it’s evil maw.

        None of those narratives has ever been truly credible. But they’re alive and well.

        Compared to them, in my mind, even though what actually happened wasn’t actually really heroic, given that most everybody thinks that just by showing up and pushing into the worst parts of a wildland fire (while everybody else is running away) Hotshots are some kind of heroic just by trying to do their jobs, Which to a certain extent, relatively speaking, is the case.

        if the SAIT had just said that they decided to participate in a plan to save Glen Ilah, and said what that plan was, and said how they just didn’t make it as the fire burned faster than they anticipated and turned around and caught them by surprise……

        It would have been MUCH better than what all those other totally non-credible bogus narratives have, over the past two years, engendered.

        Joy’s right. Also Randi Rhodes preaches this. The truth may be difficult, and may make you miserable, but it’s a WHOLE LOT EASIER to remember. You don’t have to keep re-deciding how to narrate it, and fix it, and keep it coherent and believable, and whatever.

        Reply

    • I for one, was not suggesting it was a GOOD plan or a workable plan or something they should be thinking about, nor do I think it would have made any heroes for trying it since one of my favorite things here is when you call structures “part of the fuel bed.”

      In my continual interest in trying to determine “why the GMIHC left the black” I am simply putting it out there for discussion, could this have been Eric’s plan that someone or more than one someone bought into to give it a shot?

      Nor do I ever think it is a good idea for wildland firefighters to engage in structure protection except for engine crews under limited and specific conditions. And that has been my strong position from day one, it would NOT have made heroes, it would have made them…stupid. But that doesn’t mean “they” would not have tried to spin it that way.

      And it very may well be that Cordes, the BR Cat boss and maybe McDonough were the only ones who knew about the Hail Mary Plan IF it existed at all (other than the other GMIHC- Marsh and Steed) but I am sure others found out about it later, IF it existed and then they became part of the cover up as well.

      Reply

      • IAOI this plan actually existed… and IF ( but only ONLY if ) Marsh was the ‘author’ of it… I keep wondering exactly WHEN it was ‘discussed’ between Marsh and who I will simply call “other people on the other side of the fire”.

        The fact that the actual INITIATION of the whole thing ( As in… “You guys scout some dozer line down there and I’ll get the ex-Marine to get those fellas down there” ) had to have been a ‘coordinated’ plan…

        …WHEN ( and how? ) did even that ‘coordination’ take place… and why didn’t more people hear it.

        I think the answer there has to be that the ‘initiation’ of this ‘plan’ ( if it ever was initiated ) took place via cellphone.

        The investigators should have obtained EVERYONE’S cellphone records.

        No question.

        In this day and age… that’s like “Investigations 101”.

        Reply

        • Don’t get me wrong – I never said it was a good plan, in fact I agree with Bob on too little too late. However, I can find no other reason for a shot crew to leave the safety of the black. Especially if the plan was created by their own Sup who was working as Division A. Again, no plan justifies violating safety practices and putting your personnel in harms way, but I see no other viable reason for them leaving the black. And yes, the odds were stacked against them with being able to pull something like this off, timing, wind, weather, etc. as Bob also points out. But I can guarantee as an OSC that I would not rely on a single dozer line alone (if it were put in place) to hold the angry fire that was coming off the hill.. In my mind that is the reason I believe “someone” thought of firing the dozer line if it could be put in place, again not textbook but the only other option (and probably the best option) was to sit back and take pictures of the big dog eating.

          Reply

          • It is still possible that their was a plan I am not saying there was not one.
            that Marsh was part of it based on statements from Cordes and his directing of the Cat and Engine crew. It may very well be why Marsh pushed the crew to move to the Ranch. There is just a few threads that are not quite tied to gather to put this into play as a Idea/plan.
            It was like a panic to save Glen Isla with not much info. Before the crew moved you would have thought there would have been some kind of scout on feasibility. What would or could they do.

            20/20 hind site says they should have looked at a plan of indirect line and implemented it that morning with more than 1 cat and never put a crew on the mountain.

            Reply

            • My Other question I have asked before why was Marsh and Steed calling it an escape route rather than just moving to reengage, Coming off the mountain to the Ranch road. Why Escape route if that is what they were doing?????
              That has never made any sense.

              Reply

        • OK. I’ll stick it out there.

          I think, given the timeline, that this “plan” was part of Gary Cordes’ conversation with Paul Musser on 89. Too much leads back into that.

          Including Paul Musser then heading into Yarnell to do whatever, including, I think, beginning to secure that ATV, without which, I don’t think Cory Ball would have said to Moran, around about 4PM, something along the lines of, “You wait here, I’m gonna come back soon.”

          I don’t think Cory would have said that if he wasn’t really really SURE that was going to be the case, and I don’t think him just thinking Blue Ridge was “getting ready to head” to the Ranch House Restaurant would have given him that confidence. He didn’t KNOW he would have guaranteed access to their UTV.

          That call to Cory to join into this had to have happened, given all the tight timing, before or around when he took that photo of the staging area (and, since I still don’t have my hard drives and can’t look at the photo, I don’t remember exactly when he took that photo, but I think it was around 3:50-4:00).

          And I agree with what WTKTT has written about Eric calling Frisby to come up to his vantage point and SEE what was happening, and I think Eric was SEEING the possibility of putting that line in when he called Frisby to come up.

          That was just a little bit BEFORE Musser, according to Musser (but we have no actual evidence of that), got the availability check regarding Granite Mountain being “committed to the ridge.”

          The only time Cordes and Musser could have started discussing and beginning to implement this had to have been when they were face-to-face meeting on 89.

          And I think that they couldn’t have done this without some kind of communication with Eric. They had no way of knowing, at that time, what the fire looked like in relationship to Glen Ilah without Eric’s input. I don’t think they would have, just between themselves, been able to conjure up this plan.

          So I think/agree that there had to have been some communication going on between them and Eric. We have no radio evidence of this. It could just be missing from the videos we have. Or it could have been taking place over a cellphone. But I do believe it had to have been taking place.

          The fact that there was never any investigation of the cellphone records is totally galling to me, all things considered. There was a whole ton of cellphone conversations going on on this fire, in my humble opinion.

          So those are my thoughts.

          I have a new credit card, BTW, and the current official explanation of what happened regarding my credit card makes absolutely no sense to me. Ongoing saga, but at least I now have access to my MONEY.

          Namaste.

          Reply

          • “Bob Powers says OCTOBER 6, 2015 AT 4:23 PM

            My Other question I have asked before why was Marsh and Steed calling it an escape route rather than just moving to reengage, Coming off the mountain to the Ranch road. Why Escape route if that is what they were doing?????
            That has never made any sense.”

            I think, to be honest, the “cover-up” started as “the plan” was unfolding. And I think the “cover-up” included calling this an “Escape Route.” Which, to us, it obviously wasn’t.

            It’s the only thing I can think of.

            The only person, out there on the fire, who would have “officially” known what that “short-hand” actually “officially” meant would have been Gary Cordes. He was the one who, that morning, told, first Eric Marsh, and then, the Granite Mountain Hotshots, “This is your bomb-proof safety zone.”

            As a photographer, one of the tenets I sometimes abide by is “shoot first, apologize later.”

            I really do think that some of this was being flown under the radar.

            Reply

            • To be perfectly honest, I really don’t think even Brian Frisby knew what was going on, because Eric, after the face-to-face convo on the ridge got aborted, even, apparently, misled him with his agreement with Brian’s question “you mean the two-track we/you came in on?”

              I actually really do think Brian Frisby thought Granite Mountain came down on the two-track leading down further into the black.

              But I could be wrong about that. WTKTT has written otherwise.

              A whole lot of this is still a jumbled mess. Which is why we are still here, over two years later, trying to figure it out.

              Reply

              • And to that I would add.

                I don’t actually think Todd Abel was, all that much, in on this.

                I think he was so busy doing something else that was critical and complicated on the north side of the fire, especially after Paul Musser made himself the other Field Ops (and I think Todd was relieved by that, all things considered), that, after he told Marsh to “hunker down and be safe,” he basically let go of tracking what was going on on the southwest part of the fire.

                I’m saying this, all the while knowing that WTKTT has said elsewhere that he thinks the voice in the 4:27 Gamble video urging them to get down more quickly is that of Todd Abel.

                And that could mean I could be wrong on what I am saying.

                I just don’t think, currently, that Todd Abel was “engaged” in what was happening here. I think, all things considered, including what was happening on his end of the fire, he was quite comfortable letting Paul Musser manage/micro-manage what was happening on the opposite side of the fire.

                Span of Control.

                Reply

  44. WTKTT said,

    “>> Gary Olson also said…
    >>
    >> As far as why “they” are obfuscating the truth, it’s like
    >> the GEICO commercial say’s…that’s what they do.

    Yes… but as one of the persons who pays their fucking salaries… I’m not giving them a ‘free pass’. Sorry.”

    And I asked,

    “A free pass for obfuscating the truth? Or a free pass if they bought into the plan? Or both?”

    Reply

      • I certainly agree with you that no one should get a free pass for obfuscating the truth, I think they should face disciplinary action up to and including termination and possibly criminal prosecution. All of my training has focused on the fact that you don’t have to talk (unless given a Garrity waiver) but if you do talk, you had better tell the truth.

        And that goes for me, or any other law enforcement person who becomes the target of an internal or criminal investigation, the rules are no different. In fact, during my time (18 years with the BLM) I was the target of four separate internal investigations in addition to a few administrative reviews and I always focused on one thing…tell the truth.

        And by the way…I never spent even one day “on the beach” so…don’t read anything into that. They say if you have never been the target of an internal investigation…you aren’t trying hard enough. Or at least that is what I always said, but I think I made it up.

        As far as buying into the plan under the circumstances, that is just my opinion knowing how chaotic things can be and there has to be a trust level in order for the system to ever work. If a Division Supervisor and a hotshot crew boss tell you they can move their crew to town to provide the ground forces for a backfire, I think it would be overreach for anyone in Ops to reply, no you can’t do that because there is always the presumption that anyone in that position would not be suggesting such a plan, or buying into such a plan, whichever way it went IF it went at all, if they couldn’t do it safely and in accordance with the rules.

        But the latter is a judgment call, and your call if different than mine. Now if it is revealed at some point that the plan actually existed, and that they knew more or should have known more as to why it was a bad idea, than my opinion would change on whether or not they should get a free pass on that as well.

        Reply

        • Total agreement on what seems to have happened AFTER the tragedy.
          Everyone decided that the “ask me the right question and I might give you the right answer” game was the way to go… especially with ADOSH.

          As for what might have gone down DURING the fire… Yes… when some ‘Hotshot’ is being a ‘Hotshot’… you are SUPPOSED to believe he/she can do what he/she is telling you he/she can do.

          Just like you are supposed to believe a ‘Type 2 IA’ crew can actually achieve a hike out to a fire ( but that’s a Saturday story, not a Sunday story ).

          That being said… for no one who was “buying into” the plan to at least lift a finger to make SURE this “Hotshot” guy wasn’t completely out of his fucking mind… is simply unacceptable.

          That’s where I withdraw my ‘free pass’ for ‘Trusting the Hotshit Hotshot guy” ( no typos there ).

          There are LOT of things that management could have done to make SURE this ‘risky’ plan wasn’t going to kill anyone. Air Attack could have been SPECIFICALLY told to be their “eyes on the fire”. Management could have asked for COMPLETE assurances from Mr. “Hotshit Hotshot” that LCES was in place… including exact location of the ‘Lookout’ that was to be either guiding them in to a landing… or calling for an abort.

          That might even be one of the most important “Takeaway Lessons” from this whole event.

          Never again should someone COMPLETELY trust some “Hotshit Hotshot” to be able to do what he/she is promising… WITHOUT proper supervision.

          From now on… TRUST… but VERIFY.

          Reply

          • WTKTT said,

            “That being said… for no one who was “buying into” the plan to at least lift a finger to make SURE this “Hotshot” guy wasn’t completely out of his fucking mind”

            That is where you and I are having a disconnect. The day someone has to start checking to make SURE a “Hotshot” guy isn’t completely out of his fucking mind, is the day the system will collapse.

            I don’t think you understand just how much respect, deference, and support the wildland firefighting world gives to their hotshot crew bosses. And there are some very good reasons for that, that you just don’t get! Hotshot crew bosses are the FUCKING ROCK STARS in their world. Nobody challenges the rock stars of their world, if they say it or do it, it has to be right, because they are the hotshot crew bosses!

            Here is a clue to see if I can break through your barriers. There have been hotshots fight ten of thousands of very dangerous fires under some of the most extreme conditions you can imagine in a world run by Chaos since the late 1940’s. And before the Yarnell Hill Fire, there were only 3 fatality fires involving hotshots for a total of 24 deaths in a high risk job where hundreds (millions?) of man hours had been worked. And we know why all of the previous 24 hotshots died and it came down to somebody above them, had to much “can do” spirit.

            This is the house that Bob and I and a lot of others built one brick at a time which is just one of the reasons why I am so pissed off at Eric Marsh. His arrogance and stupidity has led to people like you to thinking you are qualified to make statements like “how someone has to start checking to make SURE a “Hotshot” guy isn’t completely out of his fucking mind” because what he did was so arrogant and stupid…and INEXPLICABLE!

            This was OUR HOUSE and Eric Marsh wasn’t fit to be in it.

            That has never come up before now because as I have said many times and YOU PEOPLE need to understand, the Yarnell Hill Fire was NOT just one more fatality fire involving hotshots. IT WAS OFF ALL OF THE KNOWN FUCKING CHARTS!

            Something very bad and very special (in a really bad way) happened on the Yarnell Hill Fire that has never happened in the recorded history of hotshots. And I don’t give a fuck if Amanda Beno-Marsh or Jesus Fucking Christ Himself doesn’t like me looking into it, I am going to keep on until I find some answers that make sense to me.

            Reply

            • Gary You are Right—- I would add that a lot of other Hot Shot Crews knew that Marsh was way out there and worked with some reserve around him. Take a few comments on here from those that said Marsh made bad decisions and got away with them for a long time.
              I will bet most if not all of the R3 HS Crews knew about his Drug use that caused a crew to be disbanded. You know like I do if a HS Crew is going off the deep end other crews distance them self’s from them.
              Let them sink or swim. The word travels fast.

              One big question that we have not really discussed——
              Why would another Superintendent question Marsh on exactly what he was doing where he was going on his move to a safety zone. Marsh was evasive and said they were moving in the black to another location.
              The real eye opener here is why Frisby would even ask Marsh did he think Marsh was going off the reservation and out of the safe black and do something stupid?
              Superintendents normally have Faith in their fellow Sups.—-

              Those questions by Frisby have bothered me for some time I think they were asked fore a reason Trust—-

              Why would Marsh move the Crew when they were in the Black.?
              Where would he be moving them to?
              Was he making another bad decision?

              99% of the time one Sup. dose not question another on what they are doing. They normally trust each other.
              Remember that it was Frisbys Idea to post a lookout.
              Marsh and steed are saying their in the Black and then they are moving. What was going on and why.

              Reply

              • Good point Bob, this has bothered me for awhile as well but I was never able to articulate it. It did seem like Frisby was a supervisor double checking with a subordinate he had learned not to trust.

                “Those questions by Frisby have bothered me for some time I think they were asked fore a reason Trust”

                So yes, I think you are right, Frisby didn’t trust Marsh was doing the right thing.

                Reply

            • Thanks for writing this up, Gary. And thanks for your patience.

              What you are saying is kind of what I was sensing in all of this, but I don’t have your experience and knowledge and authority to “KNOW” it.

              I just had this immediate sense, when I read what WTKTT wrote, of, “SHEESH, nobody should have to baby-sit a Hotshot Crew, for God’s sake!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! DUDE!!!!!!!!”

              Now I know why.

              Reply

              • Reply to Marti Reed post on
                October 7, 2015 at 7:49 am

                >> Marti said…
                >>
                >> I just had this immediate sense, when I read
                >> what WTKTT wrote, of, “SHEESH, nobody
                >> should have to baby-sit a Hotshot Crew, for
                >> God’s sake!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! DUDE!!!!!!!!”

                I wasn’t talking about ‘baby-sitting’.

                I’m talking about when critical decisions are being made and lives could be at risk ( which was exactly the situation in Yarnell that afternoon )… it’s management’s JOB to make sure they don’t have some fucking Yahoo out on the line who is capable of killing people… and might be in the process of doing just that.

                Reply

        • Gary, you wrote:

          “Now if it is revealed at some point that the plan actually existed”

          I don’t understand how people can say “if it is revealed.”

          Cory Ball was ordered, by Cordes, to connect with Justin/someone by going up into Glen Ilah to scout the possibility of putting in a dozer line.

          Someone who was driving a white truck, who was not actually dealing, personally with the fire that was burning down towards Yarnell, or still burning up near Model Creek Road or Peeples Valley or Sickles Road or the MountainAir Mini Mart or the Shrine Road and the Youth Camp, dropped Cory Ball off at that Yarnell Fire Department to QUICKLY pick up their ATV in order to drive it up into Glen Ilah in order to accomplish that.

          Gary Cordes asked his Task Force Leader Trainee to send an engine or two to the Boulder Springs Ranch in order to “safely” pick up the Granite Mountain Hotshots there.

          How could all of that not equal a plan? How does that happen without a plan?

          I’m just not getting it, apparently. I’m having a hard time thinking this was all just coincidental or random or some kind of “organic.”

          Reply

  45. Reply to Marti Reed post on October 6, 2015 at 11:15 am

    NOTE: Continuing this conversation from down below in a thread that was running
    out of room. It was/is more discussion about the ‘dozer’… and whether it ever really
    did make it out of the danger area.

    >> Marti said…
    >>
    >> Well between the first linked conversation and the second linked conversation,
    >> there was a miles-long set of conversations regarding the various things that
    >> happened, including all the handings off of the dozer from so-and-so to so-and-so
    >> and such and such.
    >>
    >> It was pretty clear that nothing had happened to either the dozer or the operator,
    >> because they were both put back to work without much of a hitch. It’s just that
    >> somebody didn’t know where they were, so they got put on the list, but apparently
    >> that was just a mistake.

    In the end… I hope that turns out to be the simple explanation.

    It’s still very disturbing to consider the alternative… that fire command just let this dozer and its operator ( Paul Morin ) “fall through the cracks” and Mr. Morin came close to being the 20th fatality that day.

    But let’s assume for a moment that the dozer DID ‘make it out of there’… and it really did ‘follow Cory Ball out’ from the south end of the Sesame area.

    That raises a ton of ‘other’ questions.

    Example: If the risky move being made by Granite Mountain had ANYTHING to do with this possible ‘Hail Mary’ plan down there near Glen Ilah… then the moment that dozer was being REMOVED from the area… that would have meant “the plan” was already being aborted.

    So what are we to assume, then, if that’s the case?

    That someone didn’t even TELL DIVSA Marsh or Granite Mountain that even if they had ‘set out’ with the idea of helping with some dozer line near Glen Ilah… that “the plan” was “called off”… and there was no longer any need for them?

    OR… that someone then DID tell DIVSA Eric Marsh that the ’emergency dozer line” plan that he, himself, might have authored circa 3:45 PM just wasn’t coming together because there wasn’t going to be TIME to execute on that plan…

    …but DIVSA Eric Marsh, himself, didn’t “call off” Steed and the men… and he just let them “keep coming” even though he knew the original reason for the move wasn’t even coming together?

    This whole thing remains a true “puzzle”… with “pieces” that have to tightly fit in order for the existing evidence to make sense.

    Each ‘piece of the puzzle’ might answer one lingering question… but ( more often than not )… a lot more ‘new’ questions then come onto the table.

    Bredan’s own recent admission that he had ALWAYS been withholding important information from investigators is just another example.

    I suppose we can believe him that Eric Marsh really DID just ‘take off south’ on his scouting trip the moment Brian Frisby informed him he wasn’t going to make the face-to-face and now needed to save Brendan’s life, instead… and that Eric Marsh really WAS out ahead’ of those men and ‘scouting the route’…

    …but then all the other disturbing questions come onto the table.

    If Eric Marsh really was that far out AHEAD of those men that day… and anywhere EAST of the mouth of the box canyon at any time after 4:15 PM… then why did he let them keep coming forward into that deathtrap?

    Reply

    • Quick reply, and then I have to race to the Credit Union, because we discovered my credit card, which was the replacement for the one I have that expires this month, seems to have gotten stolen in the mail (long story), so we stopped it, and now I have to race to get a new one, cuz I have no other cards thus no access to cash or anything.

      In our miles long discussion, which I spent this morning reading, we decided the most plausible thing, fitting the timeline et al, was that Moran didn’t follow Cory Ball out. Instead he sat there and waited, but then the fire started coming down toward Glen Ilah and he said, to himself, something along the lines of “f*ck this, i’m getting out of here’ and then left,

      And Cory didn’t know about that as Cory started back into Glen Ilah, where he only got to the Lakewood/Manzanita intersection before he had to turn around.

      And nobody saw (or perhaps that’s when Joy’s eye-witness saw him “driving out”) him, at least nobody that was supposed to be keeping track of him, because he took the other road out and then started heading north because he HAD been requested earlier to do exactly that.

      So it’s not like the plan “got cancelled” and then he left. The plan never got cancelled, but Moran just……left because his staging spot was about to get set ablaze.

      And he had no radio, so……………

      Eventually, after the deployment et al, probably somebody like Todd Abel, or even Musser, or that BLM guy who was put in charge of
      Gary’s Structure Protection Group 2, connected back up with him, and they put him to work dealing with the power lines, under the DozerBoss friend of Todd Abel, Dean Steward.

      OK gotta go. Thanks for pulling this up here.

      Reply

      • I will add until Cory went back to scout and found the fire blocking access and Cordes or others Got to the Restaurant Parking area and saw the South side of the fire running South. No one knew what that side of the fire was doing they were all on the North side or getting out of Yarnell East to the Highway.

        Reply

        • I agree with what you wrote.

          Except, possibly, with the exception of Paul Musser.

          He had left Gary Cordes on 89 at around 3:50 and headed into Yarnell. He never said in his interview what he was doing there during that time.

          But I think he picked up Cory at the Ranch House Restaurant and then drove him to the Yarnell Fire Department to get the ATV that Cory then drove up into Glen Ilah, at )(via Cory’s photograph) at 4:27 PM, exactly the same time that Ronnie Gamble was catching, via his video-recording, that convo regarding “it would be great if you could get here sooner.” to which Eric replied (with some exasperation in his voice) “They’re coming off the heel of the fire.”

          I’m thinking it’s possible Musser didn’t hear that. I’m thinking it’s also possible he did.

          But it’s pretty hard for me to think that Musser didn’t know what that fire was doing then. The view from the parking lot of the Yarnell Fire Department to the Ridge and everything else in between, is one of the bestest.

          It wasn’t until he dropped Cory off at the Yarnell Fire Department that he skedddled over to the Shrine Road area. He was probably, at that time, the one most situationally aware of what the fire was doing as it was coming down into Glen Ilah etc.

          Reply

  46. Well…I am glad that everyone seems to understand that the reader who I agreed with was not saying definitely that is what happened, only that based on the conditions and circumstances on the ground at the time that decision would have been made, it is MOST logical that it came from Marsh, but many others bought into it and were to play a role in.

    And as far as why they didn’t spin it that way as WTKTT has asked, I don’t know either. But maybe by that time they realized just how foolish and reckless that decision was and they didn’t see the need to damage (in their eyes) the reputation of Type 1A crews and embarrass or make the families angry that their loved had died for such foolish and reckless plan?

    The only thing that really bothers me, is that IF we are right about the entire concept of a Hail Mary Plan even existing, a lot of people would have known about it.

    And normally, you can’t keep a secret if more than one person knows about it. So I really am going to try and find a way to shake the story loose as I have been saying.

    And that way has been suggested to me by another very smart and loyal reader who does not post here because…I don’t know why, but it doesn’t matter.

    And this goes back to what I have been saying for two years now, but I am embarrassed to admit that I did not connect the dots with what I knew had to be done, which is to develop a Source of Information (SOI), with the time tested way of developing an SOI when appealing to their civic duty does not work.

    Offer to pay money for the information. How? And who pays? Where does the money come from? We need to work out a lot of details, but the money could come from Crowd Funding.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crowdfunding

    It would be best if that were done under the banner of the Investigative Media banner because normally a “group” endorses the idea. But if John does not think that is a good idea or something his thread should not be involved in, I would establish a shadow group under a different name, or if nobody wants to support it, I will try it under the GO Banner of In The Pursuit Of Truth, Justice & The American Way Foundation and Website.

    So…I would like everyone to think about the idea and weigh in if you support the idea, at least in the initial stages of developing it?

    Reply

      • Thank you…but if I understand how the system works, I am not asking any one person to financially support the idea. I think the idea is to have dozens, hundreds, thousands? of people support it.

        I do think however, it would be helpful for a group, or a board, or a committee, or a gaggle of people support the IDEA, so it isn’t just one guy saying, hey, why don’t you just send me some money. Although from some examples I have been give, that works as well.

        And as far as money working? It might…it worked for our hapless hero didn’t it?

        Reply

  47. Marti Reed says

    October 4, 2015 at 8:21 pm

    OK. I’ll bite.

    Why do you think “the Yarnell Hill is above and beyond all others and not just because of the unusually high death toll”?

    I’m not asking to be adversarial. I just truly want to know.

    And say, Oh…I thought everyone hung on my every post and had them all memorized. Without going back and finding my exact quotes. Well on second thought, I don’t remember what I said, so I will go back and look it up.

    Reply

    • Couldn’t find it, so I will take a shot at recreating what I am sure must have been a piece of masterful prose. And actually, this is a theme I have been putting forward for two years now, so I don’t think all of the reasons that I have given are even in a single post.

      I believe the only fair comparisons are fatality fires involving hotshot crews. Those are the Loop, the Battlement Creek and the South Canyon (often mistakenly referred to as Storm King).

      The Loop Fire occurred in what was essentially the P I (Pueblo I) of wildland firefighting. As a reference point, the Mann Gulch Fire occurred in the Folsum Complex and the Idaho Fires of 1910 occurred during the Clovis Culture period The Battlement Creek Fire happened during P II and the South Canyon Fire burned as late as P III.

      But the Yarnell Hill Fire Disaster happened during the PRESENT TIME PERIOD! And it was far worse than anything else in recorded history, and even in any prehistoric time period.

      Oh, this is going to be a long explanation and I am burned out after my earlier on-line debate with WTKTT and he hasn’t even responded yet. God only knows how hard that is going to be to deal with! And I am still working on my Mother-Of-All-Posts to Representative Fann. It is so hard being me!

      I am going to have to get back to you with a detailed explanation on this but that is the Readers Digest version.

      Side Note: One of the first things they teach at investigator school is to establish rapport with your subject. So I am trying to do that with Marti by showing her I know some of the terms archeologists use.

      Reply

      • Reply to Gary Olson post on October 5, 2015 at 6:47 pm

        >> Gary said…
        >>
        >> Couldn’t find it, so I will take a shot at recreating what I am sure
        >> must have been a piece of masterful prose.

        I think this the comment you were looking for.
        It was down below in this chapter.

        Direct jumplink to the ( full ) comment below ( in this Chapter ) would be…

        http://www.investigativemedia.com/yarnell-hill-fire-chapter-xvi/#comment-308770

        Relevant part of the comment…

        On September 25, 2015 at 2:31 pm, Gary Olson said…
        —————————————————————————-
        …
        …
        Now…lots of people have contacted me and have provided me with details pertaining to the GMIHC and they have requested to remain anonymous and I have religiously respected their anonymity and I will continue to do so.
        …
        …
        Some things are just too important in helping us understand why the GMIHC died for me to keep to myself. I checked the number of page viewers on this blog early last year and it was around 30,000 a day. I have checked it recently a couple of times and we are down to about 1200 or so per day. I don’t know how many of those are “unique” page viewers and how many of them are readers who may check the site 2 or 3 times a day to see if there is something new. JD probably does through his website statistical tracker, but in any case I think we are down to the hard core readers who really care about what happened on the Yarnell Hill Fire.

        These readers almost certainly include some of those who loved the GMIHC and wildland firefighters.

        And so, I want to make one thing perfectly clear from my perspective, which I have stated many times before, but it has been awhile since I have done so. Since you have been following this blog, or thread or experiment in social media, you have read references to many disaster fires that resulted in wildland firefighter fatalities. The Loop, the Battlement Creek, the Mann Gulch, the South Canyon, the Rattlesnake, the Thirtymile, the Esperanza and now the Twisp along with several others. All of these wildfires and so many more were deadly tragedies, and to some extent simply the cost of doing business in an inherently dangerous job. In fact, I believe that all wildfires with fatalities before and since the Yarnell Hill Fire fit statistically within firmly established and well known parameters.

        The mainstream media with their talking heads, politicians, civic leaders, the SAIT, the agencies involved, and many other people have tried to portray, and very successfully I might add, the Yarnell Hill Fire as being just one more disaster fire. A wildfire that although it was certainly tragic, it was just like all other disaster wildfires that came before it and can be explained away as “sometimes bad things happen to good people” and therefore, it was understandable and to some extent…acceptable. Let’s bury the dead, grieve for them, build a memorial to them and move on to the next one. This is all a big lie.

        The Yarnell Hill Fire and what happened to the Granite Mountain Interagency Hotshot Crew was not the result of just one more disaster fire that can be explained using any of the standard templates. Please let me make one thing perfectly clear…the Yarnell Hill Fire was off the fucking charts. All of them.
        ————————————————————————————-

        Reply

        • Part 1

          Yes, thank you WTKTT, that is the most recent one where I attempted to address the issue and I know there were many more way back at the beginning and those are going to be very hard to find they are so scattered.

          I actually wrote a chapter in my much awaited book…oh forget it, you already know the title of it and where you can download Chapter 1 for free. But I will take a shot at it right now because I just went and took a little nap.

          The Loop Fire of 1966 which resulted in deaths of 12 El Cariso Hotshots who were burned alive prompted the U.S. Forest Service to take a hard look for what I think was really only the second time with the

          THE FIRE SAFETY REVIEW TEAM
          MARCH 1967
          A PLAN TO FURTHER REDUCE
          THE CHANCES OF MEN BEING BURNED WHILE FIGHTING FIRES
          http://www.fireleadership.gov/toolbox/staffride/downloads/lsr1/lsr1_fire_safety_team.pdf

          The first time was with the Report of the Task Force to Recommend Action to Reduce the Chances of Men Being Killed by Burning While Fighting Fire, 1957.

          http://www.nafri.gov/sites/nafri.gov.testbed/files/attachments/Report_of_Fire_Task_Force_1957.pdf

          I think the Loop Fire occurred before fire behavior was accepted and studied as a science and before many of the current safety rules had been widely accepted by wildland firefighters. Although after reading what our esteemed hapless hero had to say on the subject it appears that he truly is a knuckle dragger in the truest sense of the word and evidence that Darwin’s Theory of Evolution is in fact seriously flawed. Although I still want to know who taught him to think, much less talk like that after what he went through.

          But to me, the real significance of the Loop Fire came when several other hotshot crews refused to carry out the assignment the El Cariso Hotshot Crew Boss ultimately agreed to do. Build hand fire line in a chute above an uncontrolled wildfire. So there is some good news there and some very bad news. The good news at least some people understood the basic concept of wildfire and how they burned, even if fire overhead was still in the mode of assigning crews to construct fire line in exactly the place where crews should not be working…as all of the readers of this blog know how to quickly recognize at this point.

          Reply

          • Part 2

            The next disaster fire involving hotshots was the Battlement Creek Fire of 1976. This fire burned when wildland firefighting safety was still in its infancy because we had not been trained in the use of fire shelters nor were we required to carry them even though the Chief of the Forest Service had ordered them to be carried by crews like ours and our sister crew, the Mormon Lake Hotshots on wildfires exactly like the Battlement Creek Fire.

            In addition, wildland firefighters were not even required to wear fire resistant trousers until after the Battlement Creek Fire even though they had been available for more than a decade and were discussed as being a good idea in the 1967 report to the Chief. It appears the primary reason for not requiring wildland firefighters to wear Nomex trousers was…the cost.

            http://www.fireleadership.gov/toolbox/staffride/library_staff_ride1.html

            And just like the Loop Fire there was some good news in terms of wildland firefighting safety during the Battlement Creek Fire and there was some very bad news. The good news was that the crew boss of the Mormon Lake Hotshots was able to recognize the danger of continuing to work on a fire line his crew had constructed by hand on a steep slope directly above a huge back fire that was racing towards his crew, so he sent most of them into the planned safety zone in time to avoid a disaster of the Yarnell Hill Fire proportions.

            http://www.fireleadership.gov/toolbox/staffride/library_staff_ride10.html

            The bad news is that the fire overhead had assigned his crew to work there in the first place and had assigned another hotshot crew, the Happy Jack Hotshots (my crew) to backfire below them. And the crew boss was carrying a burning desire deep down in his soul to prove that his brand new crew was better than anybody else, he was full of the can do spirit. And so he actually lobbied the Fire Boss and the Plans Chief to take on such a dangerous assignment to prove how good he and his crew actually were.

            More bad news came when the crew boss remained with a squad boss and two crewman to finish their assignment even after he sent the majority of the crew to safety. Three out of the four were burned alive and the fourth (the squad boss) were seriously burned while he and another crewman lay in the dirt without fire shelters while a fire much like the Yarnell Hill Fire burned over them. The fire burned on a much steeper slope and so it passed over them much quicker.

            As the back fire burned over them, the other crewman screamed, “I’M ON FIRE” and then he ran down into the flames. The crew boss screamed something the others could not understand and then he ran down into the flames. I listened on the fire net radio as the first overhead on the scene who arrived in a medevac helicopter discussed how to cut open the airway of the crewman (who remained with the squad boss) because his throat was so badly burned he could not breathe. He died in place a few minutes later.

            Reply

            • Part 3

              http://www.fireleadership.gov/toolbox/staffride/library_staff_ride9.html

              The South Canyon Fire Disaster happened while a squad (8 crewpersons and a squad boss who were all burned alive along with several others) of Prineville Hotshots, a gaggle smokejumpers from several different jump bases in several time zones, a couple of local helitack guys and a bunch other miscellaneous firefighters which included various low level local BLM employees, one of which was the incident commander for some of the decisions, some of the time, except when at least one smokejumper was the incident commander for some of the decisions, some of the time, and they were working on a steep slope above an uncontrolled wildfire.

              The only thing I have been able to figure out why they were all working above an uncontrolled wildfire was because the fire was a world class Cluster Fuck from day one and then it got worse as time went by. They didn’t even come up any new rules after South Canyon because they said, “Hey, we have already made more rules than anyone can remember now and these fucking firefighters are ignoring all of the ones we have already invented, so why should we dream up more?”

              Other than that, I’m going to blame what happened to the Prineville Hotshots on the fact that neither their crew boss nor their assistant crew boss was with them and therefore their command and control structure was broken down and they were subject to the miscellaneous whims of highly disorganized and fragmented local BLM district fire personnel and a gaggle of primadonnas who all either think they should be in charge or they want to go off and work by themselves while they do their own thing because nobody else is as good as they are, even though most of them are former hotshots.

              And then came the Yarnell Hill Fire of 2013…and the rest is wildland firefighting history.

              I have got a lot more to say on this subject, but you are going to have to wait until I get my book published because I am getting sleepy again.

              Reply

              • The Number One Big Difference.

                The GMIHS were not fighting fire on the Line They were Hiking
                Out. One of the Most Basic things you can do find a SAFE ROUTE and move to a new location.

                The Crew was in a Safety Zone (400 plus acres of Black) no reason to Move no mater what the Fire did they were SAFE.

                The other Fires the Crews were all working on the line.

                Hiking out or to an SZ.
                1. The Fire compromised the Look Out. and the Vehicles.
                2. The Fire crossed the Cat Line.
                3. The Fire Crossed the Retardant line.
                4. For all intent and purpose the Fire was below the crew.
                5. The Fastest route is not always the safest route.
                6. The Black was their best SZ.
                7. The Helms ranch SZ was in the worst place for them
                A. Down the mountain in front of a flaming front.
                B. 1.5 miles through 6 to 10 ft. brush.
                C. down a 2 track through the Same Brush.
                D. A predicted Wind change with 20 plus MPH it was
                already pushing east into Yarnell and there was a
                2 mile active fire front 3/4 of a mile from the crew.
                Those are all extreme warning signs that went unheeded by Marsh and Steed. The very basics of fire behavior and the 18 situations that shout watch out..

                The long safe routes were right their if they needed to get to town.
                1. Off the Back side into the dessert and out to the highway.
                2. Back through the Black and down into Yarnell.
                3. Wait out the run in the black and then hike out. chose your route.

                All of that screams why did they chose to do what they did they never had to challenge the Dragon.
                They had absolutely no reason to hike into a brush filled death trap, t hat a Hundred other HS crews would never have gone.
                At least in my day.

                Reply

                • I’ll say Amen also.

                  Especially to the point that the GMHS were not actually fighting fire when they wound up getting burned over.

                  I appreciate your pointing that out and isolating it.

                  And, as I”m sitting here thinking about that, in comparison to a lot of other burnovers/near misses I’ve studied via LessonsLearned, I’m thinking there are quite a few in which other crews got trapped when they weren’t actually “fighting” a fire, also.

                  But I can’t think of a single one in which a crew left massive acres of safe black and walked, obviously, INTO a fire. I.e in the direction of where a fire was headed.

                  Reply

                  • Which is why I think that whatever happened at that descent point is truly critical. Possibly the most critical thing of all.

                    Given WTKTT’s video of that place at that time. It was positively ENGULFED in smoke

                    And, OK, I”m not a wildland firefighter, and I have no personal knowledge of this stuff. But over the past year, there have been videos released detailing the impacts of smoke on firefighter’s decision-making..

                    And they all talk about how massive carbon monoxide can really affect the brain and the ability to make accurate judgements and critical decisions.

                    I can’t imagine that wasn’t in play.

                    Reply

      • Thank you, Gary, for your historical documentation of this (especially as it pertains to Hotshot crews).

        And, yes, as I read it I “got” and slightly LOLLED when I read your layering of it in Southwest Anthropological/Archaeological terms. It both made me feel “special” and made a lot of sense to me.

        And I also learned from how you wrote it.

        So I”ve had a wild day today, that actually started last night with my Mastercard being turned down, and finding that it was possibly stolen (which, given what we pinned down today, still doesn’t make any sense to me), and having to drive cross-town to get another one, while thinking “none of this makes any sense to me!!

        And I know right now, that there’s a whole bunch of conversation going on upstream that I haven’t even gotten to.

        The thing that is echoing in my mind is your saying that what makes this DIFFERENT is that you don’t don’t know WHY they died. I’m saying that this conversation is about WHY they died. I think I know WHY they died.

        What I am seeing, at this point, including what has been happening this year, is a whole bunch of doing unsafe things in order to save structures, with the corresponding HERO status they are getting for attempting to do that.

        Reply

        • Thank you, and yes, I did put some thought into regarding how I could make my response special, descriptive and helpful…just for you.

          Reply

        • I agree with you, but once again, I am trying to leave some wiggle room because I don’t have the proof yet. All of the evidence is compelling, but it circumstantial. Now, there is not necessarily anything wrong with that, the prisons are full of people who were put there by circumstantial evidence, but I would like to find a smoking gun if there is one.

          Reply

    • Let me try to answer your question one more time.

      The Yarnell Hill Fire is off the all of the known charts because of the following reasons;

      1. I know why 12 El Cariso Hotshots died on the Loop Fire of 1966.

      2. I know why 3 Mormon Lake Hotshots died on the Battlement Creek Fire of 1976.

      3. I know why 9 Prineville Hotshots died on the South Canyon Fire of 1994.

      4. I don’t know why 19 Granite Mountain Hotshots died on the Yarnell Hill Fire of 2013.

      Reply

      • Reply to Gary Olson post on October 6, 2015 at 1:49 am

        >> Gary Olson said…
        >>
        >> 4. I don’t know why 19 Granite Mountain Hotshots died on
        >> the Yarnell Hill Fire of 2013.

        Stay tuned. The odds in Vegas say it’s unlikely that the most HISTORIC ( so far ) one on the ( your ) list will be the one that remains ‘a total mystery’.

        History doesn’t like these kinds of mysteries.

        They tend to get ‘solved’… sooner or later.

        Reply

  48. A loyal reader sent me the following email that I need to share with you, whoever you are;

    “There is something I’d like to ask you about regarding the infamous Hail Mary plan.

    While there is at present no way of knowing who originally came up with it — whether it was Marsh, Cordes or Musser — I am curious to know what the implications are in the event it was Marsh who approached the others and lobbied for this plan as “doable.” Naturally, this is because I tend to think it actually was this way, since out of the three it was only Marsh who had the all-important view of the fire from high up on a mountain. It was Marsh who was already taking action on this apparent “plan” at the time GM was told to hunker and be safe. And, Marsh’s subsequent efforts to be evasive about what GM was doing indicates that neither Abel nor Musser had any knowledge that GM was leaving the black in accordance with any “plan.” (Not to mention that there’s not been anything substantial which definitively links Musser to ordering anything regarding this pure folly that’s been described as the Hail Mary plan.)

    If it actually was Marsh who approached Cordes and “possibly” Musser with how this plan had merit, and because these two were likely inclined to think the information coming from their Division A boss was reliable for the reason that they believed him to be both a qualified person with the needed expertise AND someone who could see the fire like they could not … and so they decided to make at least an “initial effort” or “first step” to begin on the Plan (before it promptly fell apart) ,,, then what are they really guilty of except listening to what their Division who boss told them when they had no way of knowing that this was someone who “never” should have had ANY lives entrusted to him .. much less 19.

    It is just a scenario that I find difficult to dismiss.”

    And I replied;

    “You asked “then what are they really guilty of except listening to what their Division boss who told them when they had no way of knowing that this was someone who “never” should have had ANY lives entrusted to him .. much less 19.”

    Absolutely NOTHING!

    This is just one of the reasons why I like hearing from you, as an highly intelligent and informed outsider, you have clarity on this disaster that I lack either because of my close association with the industry or my lack of intellect. In either case, this is my new position and I am going to beat on this drum from now on because it makes perfect sense. FYI – This is so important I am going to post it.

    And as an investigator, it never really mattered that I wasn’t the smartest guy in the room, I didn’t have to be. I just had to know how to find the smartest people in the room and then listen to them and then put it all together in a case report.

    Thank you.”

    Reply

    • Reply to Gary Olson post on October 5, 2015 at 12:15 pm

      >> Gary Olson said…
      >>
      >> “You asked “then what are they really guilty of except listening to
      >> what their Division boss who told them when they had no way of
      >> knowing that this was someone who “never” should have had ANY
      >> lives entrusted to him .. much less 19.”
      >>
      >> Absolutely NOTHING!

      I’m going to disagree with that.

      If they ( Operations Level Supervisors Todd Abel and Paul Musser ) did NOT know this ‘Hail Mary’ plan was ‘underway’… then they are at least guilty of not keeping their Division Level Supervisors under proper supervision and not knowing what the fuck he/they were doing.

      If they DID know about this ‘Hail Mary’ plan… then I believe they are guilty of simply not having the sense to ‘call it off’ because it was ‘too little, too late, too dangerous’.

      There are too many ‘bits and pieces’ of evidence on the table to believe that this ‘Hail Mary’ plan was NOT underway that afternoon.

      Way too many.

      Who was the original ‘author’ of it… and who got who else to be ‘on board’… remains a mystery but the compass needle only points in a finite number of directions.

      Remember…. we still have NO IDEA what the hell it was that DIVSA Marsh felt was so all-fired important circa 3:30 PM that he would request that Brian Friby drop everything was doing and eat dust and schlep all the way up to that anchor point for another ‘face-to-face’ at that critical time.

      Or why Brian Frisby would even consent to do so, at such a critical time.

      What could possibly have been so important ( circa 3:30 PM ) that Marsh couldn’t have just talked about it on the radio?

      It would seem that there must have been something Marsh felt Brian Frisby had to SEE from Marsh’s vantage point and that is why he was asking him to make that long trip all the way up to that ridge where Marsh was standing.

      Frisby never made it. That’s how bad the timing was.

      By the time Frisby even got halfway up there the fire was already moving south so quickly that it had chased Brendan off his lookout mound… and what was supposed to be a ‘face-to-face’ with Marsh ( for still-unknown reasons ) just turned into a rescue mission for Brendan McDonough.

      So whatever it was that Marsh wanted to ‘show’ Frisby… or talk to him about… Marsh knew that face-to-face was never going to happen at precisely 3:39 PM… when Frisby radioed Steed ( and Marsh ) to tell him he wasnt’ coming… and he was rescuing Brendan… and did Marsh want them ( Blue Ridge ) to move their vehicles to safety.

      It is still highly likely that what Marsh wanted to ‘show’ Frisby is that he thought he saw dozer line possibilities down there near Glen Ilah and that they should now focus on ‘that plan’ to try and at least keep the fire out of that community.

      That ‘plan’ could even have been what Marsh was actually referring to when we HEAR him ( with our own ears, thanks to Christopher MacKenzie ( Rest in peace ) ) saying to Steed…

      “I could just feel this comin’… ya know?”

      What Marsh might have meant was…

      “When I saw that thing turn south and blow through that retardant line… I knew we were going to have to end up trying to save some town today… in THIS burn cycle”.

      Whoever might have ‘authored’ the plan to try and find some way to cut emergency dozer line near Glen Ilah… SPGS1 Gary Cordes still had to be ‘in on it’ because Cordes was the one controlling the DOZER and its operator… Paul Morin.

      There is absolutely NO DOUBT that Gary Cordes KNEW those men were headed for the Boulder Springs Ranch. He was so sure of it that while the Shrine Road area was being evacuated he specifically told his TFLD(t) trainee Tyson Esquibel to send at least one engine to the Boulder Springs Ranch to make sure ‘Granite Mountain’ was getting out of there safely.

      Why, then, was SPGS1 Gary Cordes so SURE that’s where they were headed ( or, in his mind, probably already WERE )… when no one else seemed to know?

      Why, then, would TLFD(t) Tyson Esquibel consider this ‘order’ to send engines to the BSR so significant that he specifically mentions it his Unit Log… when SPGS1 Gary Cordes ( who actually gave Esquibel that order ) says absolutely NOTHING about it in HIS Unit Log… and also mentions NOTHING about this in EITHER of his official ‘interviews’? ( SAIT / ADOSH ).

      These are still important mysteries that need better answers.

      Reply

      • For anyone who might not have followed this discussion for awhile… it’s worth pointing out that one of the most IMPORTANT players in the story for that entire Sunday… Dozer operator Paul Morin… has STILL ( as far as we know ) never been interviewed by ANYONE and/or has never made a single comment associated with that fateful day.

        Dozer operator Paul Morin even ended up on the list of ‘missing persons’ that DPS Helicopter Ranger 58 was told to be ‘looking for’ as it took to the air trying to find the Granite Mountain Hotshots.

        There is still every chance in the world that dozer operator Paul Morin got ‘caught’ back there at the south end of the Sesame area and had to ‘ride out the burnonver’ in either glass-enclosed cab of the dozer or in the cab of his loboy trailer there at the south end of the Sesame area.

        We still don’t even know WHO actually ADDED dozer operator Paul Morin’s name to the list of ‘missing persons’ for Helicopter Ranger 58 before it even took to the air.

        Someone did.

        Someone who was responsible for him ( SPGS Cary Cordes? ) realized he didn’t know where the fuck he was and that it was likely he was ‘trapped’ back there along with Granite Mountain.

        It’s still very important to hear Mr. Paul Morin’s side of ‘the story’ from that day… if for no other reason than to ascertain where he was, what his instructions were at that late hour in the afternoon, why he was added to the ‘missing persons’ list… and whether or not he really did almost become the 20th fatality that day.

        Reply

      • Thank you WTKTT for your detailed and very thoughtful counterpoint. Just as you do, I believe that point – counterpoint (Jane You Ignorant Slut, SNL during the good ole days) is the lifeblood of this thread. And since it has been at least a couple of weeks since I have said it, let me say yet again that I consider you to be without a doubt one of the “the smartest guy’s in the room”, which is why I always read whatever you say so carefully.

        HOWEVER…I think you missed a very important point this time. I never said (by quoting one of our readers verbatim this time) that none of those people you mentioned didn’t know about the Hail Mary Plan. I just don’t think any of them are guilty of anything by buying into it with Marsh.

        And here is where I play one of my favorite cards…again and beat on one of my favorite drums. I am after all, a former wildland firefighter who saw the elephant more than most ever will, not more than many, but more than most. And in fact, I agree with you that I think all of the people you mentioned and many more knew about the Hail Mary Plan and knew specifically what their role in it was to be. I just don’t think We The People who paid for this debacle and almost all of the aftermath have any definitive proof this plan existed and was in fact being implanted by Marsh.

        So without going into a long detailed explanation of why and how this incident was so chaotic, which we all are fully aware by now, let me just say yet again that Chaos was running this fire during the time period in question. Which as I have said many times, is not uncommon in the early stages of fighting wildfires. That is why it is so critical for battle commanders to rely on field commanders to make battlefield decisions in real time (my that was a lot of military analogies in a single sentence).

        I think it was perfectly reasonable under the circumstances for whoever bought into the plan to have bought into it based on Marsh’s solid reputation within the wildland firefighting community. We have to remember that most wildland firefighters either did not know Marsh had exhibited fatally flawed decision making abilities late in life (he wasn’t a dumb ass kid whose brain had not fully developed yet) or they did not know of the details of his background and just how serious his errors in judgment had been.. Or perhaps they had forgiven him because he had found Jesus and had turned his life around as far as they knew.

        They were after all, relying on Darrell Willis to fully vet him as a field commander who had so many young lives that were subject to his every whim. They were also probably unaware that Marsh had simply replaced his dependence on one drug with another in his life so he was fighting new demons that looked a lot like the old ones.

        Nor do I believe that any of them knew “the rest of the story”(Paul Harvey) about the Prescott City Council looking to axe the crew because they weren’t revenue neutral enough for them, or the fact that Darrell Willis had put a “Mr. Lebowski asked me to repeat that…her life is in your hands Dude (Brandt)” kind of pressure on Marsh in that saving the Prescott Fire Department Wildland Fire Division was in his hands. Unreasonable pressure that made Marsh a very dangerous and wholly unpredictable field commander.

        I always operated with the confidence that no matter what I did, if I did it with the best interests of our crew in mind, the U.S. Forest Service Fire Management Officers who had entrusted me with THEIR hotshot crews (Richard Allred and Orlando Romero) would forgive anything I did when I returned to our home district.

        And for anyone out there in the wildland firefighting world who is reading this and currently has, or may someday have young lives subject to your every whim who don’t think I should be writing about Marsh like this, don’t kill your crew or you will get the same exact treatment whether you die with them or you survive your stupidity. The explosion of social media sits and the widespread use of cheap computers has changed the rules of the game…and the new rules are not in your favor.

        And let me say yet again for the record. I identify with Marsh because I fought my own demons and I made similar mistakes either against more forgiving wildfires or I was luckier than he was in the end because he is dead and I am sitting here blogging about it.

        And if Marsh were here today, I would still give him a man hug, forgive him and we would cry together. But let me say also once again, forgiveness is not mine to give, that has to come from those who loved the Granite Mountain Interagency Hotshot Crew.

        Side Note: Hmmm, some of the things you said has me even thinking harder about another email I received on the side from yet another really smart and informed reader who does not post here. What we really need is some way to shake the story loose from those who are sitting on it…right?

        Reply

      • My original comment is stuck in moderation and I know that can be a black hole so I am going to repost it.

        Thank you WTKTT for your detailed and very thoughtful counterpoint. Just as you do, I believe that point – counterpoint (Jane You Ignorant Slut, SNL during the good ole days) is the lifeblood of this thread. And since it has been at least a couple of weeks since I have said it, let me say yet again that I consider you to be without a doubt one of the “the smartest guy’s in the room”, which is why I always read whatever you say so carefully.

        HOWEVER…I think you missed a very important point this time. I never said (by quoting one of our readers verbatim this time) that none of those people you mentioned didn’t know about the Hail Mary Plan. I just don’t think any of them are guilty of anything by buying into it with Marsh.

        And here is where I play one of my favorite cards…again and beat on one of my favorite drums. I am after all, a former wildland firefighter who saw the elephant more than most ever will, not more than many, but more than most. And in fact, I agree with you that I think all of the people you mentioned and many more knew about the Hail Mary Plan and knew specifically what their role in it was to be. I just don’t think We The People who paid for this debacle and almost all of the aftermath have any definitive proof this plan existed and was in fact being implanted by Marsh.

        So without going into a long detailed explanation of why and how this incident was so chaotic, which we all are fully aware by now, let me just say yet again that Chaos was running this fire during the time period in question. Which as I have said many times, is not uncommon in the early stages of fighting wildfires. That is why it is so critical for battle commanders to rely on field commanders to make battlefield decisions in real time (my that was a lot of military analogies in a single sentence).

        I think it was perfectly reasonable under the circumstances for whoever bought into the plan to have bought into it based on Marsh’s solid reputation within the wildland firefighting community. We have to remember that most wildland firefighters either did not know Marsh had exhibited fatally flawed decision making abilities late in life (he wasn’t a dumb ass kid whose brain had not fully developed yet) or they did not know of the details of his background and just how serious his errors in judgment had been.. Or perhaps they had forgiven him because he had found Jesus and had turned his life around as far as they knew.

        They were after all, relying on Darrell Willis to fully vet him as a field commander who had so many young lives that were subject to his every whim. They were also probably unaware that Marsh had simply replaced his dependence on one drug with another in his life so he was fighting new demons that looked a lot like the old ones.

        Nor do I believe that any of them knew “the rest of the story”(Paul Harvey) about the Prescott City Council looking to axe the crew because they weren’t revenue neutral enough for them, or the fact that Darrell Willis had put a “Mr. Lebowski asked me to repeat that…her life is in your hands Dude (Brandt)” kind of pressure on Marsh in that saving the Prescott Fire Department Wildland Fire Division was in his hands. Unreasonable pressure that made Marsh a very dangerous and wholly unpredictable field commander.

        I always operated with the confidence that no matter what I did, if I did it with the best interests of our crew in mind, the U.S. Forest Service Fire Management Officers who had entrusted me with THEIR hotshot crews (Richard Allred and Orlando Romero) would forgive anything I did when I returned to our home district.

        And for anyone out there in the wildland firefighting world who is reading this and currently has, or may someday have young lives subject to your every whim who don’t think I should be writing about Marsh like this, don’t kill your crew or you will get the same exact treatment whether you die with them or you survive your stupidity. The explosion of social media sits and the widespread use of cheap computers has changed the rules of the game…and the new rules are not in your favor.

        And let me say yet again for the record. I identify with Marsh because I fought my own demons and I made similar mistakes either against more forgiving wildfires or I was luckier than he was in the end because he is dead and I am sitting here blogging about it.

        And if Marsh were here today, I would still give him a man hug, forgive him and we would cry together. But let me say also once again, forgiveness is not mine to give, that has to come from those who loved the Granite Mountain Interagency Hotshot Crew.

        Side Note: Hmmm, some of the things you said has me even thinking harder about another email I received on the side from yet another really smart and informed reader who does not post here. What we really need is some way to shake the story loose from those who are sitting on it…right?

        Reply

      • OK. Since we all agree, I think, that this point-counterpoint kind of mulling things over has always been our strong point (I know I have appreciated it and benefitted from it massively), as one of the ones who “discovered” this Hail Mary Plan by continuing to follow the dots over a LONG period of time (and thank you Calvin for also persisting and thank you Joy (to whom I owe some emails) for providing some VERY IMPORTANT dots in June that led to us piecing this together), I am sitting here thinking about what both of you are saying and agreeing with both of you and so maybe that puts me into a point-counterpoint-point position?

        I probably shouldn’t even be writing this, as I’ve had a very stressful evening that began right after I read Gary’s original post and then finally I got a mess resolved and then read the rest of the posts, and I’m almost brain-dead.

        The thing that bugs me the most about all of this is that I think the SAIT knew about it and attempted to SERIOUSLY hide it from the record. I think the reason we don’t know about it enough to be able to, as Gary wrote, “have any definitive proof this plan existed and was in fact being implanted by Marsh” is precisely because of that “scrubbing.”

        And I think that “scrubbing” began right there during that very early (and scathing) SAIT interview with the Blue Ridge Hotshots. I think Cory Ball was describing it then, and I think that’s part of what was redacted from his (and possibly others”) notes,

        I think the SAIT also heard those conversations that were recorded that indicated some people either were wondering or even knew that Granite Mountain was headed to the Boulder Springs Ranch in order to get to Glen Isla, so I think the SAIT knew about the plan and all those communications.

        If they didn’t think there was something problematic with it, why did they go to such efforts to hide it from the record?

        If they didn’t think there was something problematic, why did they go to such efforts to create and manage a narrative that, essentially, said, both, that there was no communication going on during that 30-minute period, and that why GMHS left the black and went down into that explosive fuel-filled canyon is a total mystery that went with them to their graves and we can never possibly know, and THAT is what THE PUBLIC ET AL still believes to this very day.

        Why didn’t they just come out and say what I think they knew but didn’t want anybody else to know — even fuzzily — they saw there might be a way to help put in/backfire/whatever a dozer line and Gary Cordes thought it might work also, and highly possibly even Paul Musser, and so they decided to head to Glen Isla and, unfortunately they didn’t have time to get there before the fire turned and caught them by surprise in the canyon?

        I mean, really, what’s the problem with that??????

        Given what I believe is the truth that Gary is writing, I think everybody would have been able to forgive everybody if that had been the “official narration.” It’s quite understandable, all things considered.

        Instead they they apparently immediately (as by the time they were interviewing the Blue Ridge Hotshots) decided to start and do whatever it took to maintain this whole “mystery” narrative that they knew was not true.

        What did that gain them? A lot of the public still believes it, but from what I’ve read, a huge part of both the public and fire-fighters think it is bogus.

        So that’s the frustrating counterpoint I’m sitting here with, after agreeing with both of you and still thinking, “But…………..”

        Which is why I’m 20% more agreeing with WTKTT than with Gary. The SAIT (for historical reasons we are aware of — the threat of the possible legal consequences of naming anybody as being, by virtue of accountability, responsible for anything) has ALWAYS been bending itself into pretzels in order to protect “The Overhead” on this fire for the consequences of their decision-making.

        I’m still struggling with the question of “Who, exactly, are they protecting, and why?”

        I still, personally, think (PROVE ME WRONG, SOMEBODY!!!!) that it is Paul Musser. But maybe it’s Eric Marsh.

        PS to WTKTT. Regarding Paul/Justin Moran, I think we, way back in June when we were re-piecing this, decided that he did drive the dozer thru Glen Isla and then over that other street and down onto 89, but nobody saw him do that. I still haven’t moved my five hard drives over to where I am currently now camping/living, and so I don’t have access to all my documents regarding that.

        And another PS. I really believe identifying those 4:00-4:30 radio conversations is critical in this, WHO KNEW??? I think that is important, all things considered. Since I, right now, don’t have access to the relevant files, I want to ask WTKTT if he thinks there is any possibility that the voice in the conversation with Bravo 33 that led into someone with a hard drawl asking “Waz yo status?” might have been Tony Sciacca?

        Or maybe that guy from the Prescott Musketeers that was photographed crossing the Air2Air Video at that time talking on a radio?

        I have been trying to identify who might have been just driving around and, thus, not engaged directly in dealing directly with the fire during that half-hour period between 4 and 4:30, and, thus, possibly more engaged in that radio traffic.

        OK so I guess I need to summarize this. I think that the fact that SO MUCH of the essential truth-based narrative of what actually happened has been so deliberately hidden from the public and the fire-fighers and the families (who by now have their own “control-the-narrative” games going on) by those that possess the data says that there is someone who is being protected in all of this.

        Because of all of that, I honestly don’t know if it’s possible to determine if anybody who is still alive is “innocent” or not.

        Reply

        • Marti,
          I believe you are so right on its amazing! I am without a computer right now but I will add more later.

          Reply

          • And I am looking forward to reading more about what Norb thinks about this, because it was his concept that I originally bought into.

            Reply

            • In my experience as a Div. Sup.(10years) and as a type 2 Ops Section Chief( 8 years) I valued the opinions and ideas of the Hot Shot Sup. They were my “go to guys” when things were not going as planned. After all, these guys usually had been there done that more than most of the team players. That being said, on a local level I also recognized the abilities (or lack of) of the local resources.

              I believe this “hail Mary plan” most likely originated from Div. A, but I also believe it was communicated and bought off on by Ops, thus the emergency scouting for the dozer push. Too many of the dots line up for this to be solely the plan of Marsh with no one else having any clue of what was going on. The dozer push, sending an engine or two to the ranch to make sure GM made it out, asking if they can go faster – knowing that if this operation had any chance of working it was timing sensitive/critical. To me this is the only reason a crew would leave the safe black. And as an Ops Section in this situation it was a long shot for success, but it seems they were out of options.

              So is there fault for trying a last ditch effort to save the community?
              In my opinion no, as long as the resources needed can get there safely and be safe and effective in conducting the mission.

              As we have stated a number of times, the safety of the crew comes down to the crew leader(s). The decision to move or not to move is theirs and theirs alone regardless of “the plan”. I do believe that the human factors that Gary has pointed played heavily in that decision.

              Reply

              • Reply to Norb Szczurek post
                on October 6, 2015 at 9:09 am

                Incredibly well thought-out and stated, Norb.
                Thank you.

                >> Norb said…
                >>
                >> So is there fault for trying a last ditch effort to
                >> save the community?
                >>
                >> In my opinion no, as long as the resources needed
                >> can get there safely and be safe and effective in
                >> conducting the mission.

                Copy that.

                Let’s just say that really is what was happening that afternoon… do you have a ‘feel’, then, as to why there would have been such a concerted effort to ‘cover this up’ and not just ‘tell the truth’?

                I’m beginning to question even my own long-standing belief that it was the Arizona State Forestry lawyers ( in the Arizona Attorney General’s office ) that were ‘advising’ the SAIT that it would be better if any evidence of such a ‘last-ditch-effort’ plan never saw the light of day.

                It would seem ( based on what you just said ) that they really shouldn’t have had too many worries about that with regards to protecting the ‘higher ups’.

                If that really was WHY those men were where they were… WHEN they were… then it seems like this ‘story’ would have made their efforts seem even more ‘heroic’.

                In other words…

                1) Yes… there was a plan to try and save some town.
                2) Yes… resources were committed.
                3) Yes… operations was told it was ‘doable’.
                4) Something went wrong. They didn’t make it.

                I’m still seeing the ‘liability’ there where the rubber met the road ( with Marsh and Steed )… but as far as being afraid to admit there WAS ‘a plan’… I’m not sure why they would have been ( or would still be ) afraid to admit it.

                As we have stated a number of times, the safety of the crew comes down to the crew leader(s). The decision to move or not to move is theirs and theirs alone regardless of “the plan”. I do believe that the human factors that Gary has pointed played heavily in that decision.

                Reply

                • Correction… that last paragraph above was not ‘me’ speaking… that was Norb’s paragraph from his comment.

                  I meant to put that in ‘brackets’ and just say “I agree”.

                  Reply

                  • I really don’t know why, if this is what happened it is being covered up. My only thought is that maybe due to the ineffectiveness from the early stages of this fire they don’t want a lot of detail to become public – I don’t really know I do think (if this is what happened) I agree with you and Marti in the fact that it makes the effort even more heroic.

                    Reply

                    • Thank you, both of you.

                      This is EXACTLY what I have been thinking and trying to say.

                      I don’t understand (and haven’t all along) WHY the INTENSE cover-up, all thing considered.

                      It really didn’t help them at all, in they eye of the public and other fire-fighters.

                      And it probably wouldn’t have changed the equation, dollars-wise.

                      The outcome — that Marsh and Steed were responsible for their decisions, in spite of everything, including the plan — and, really, nobody else — hasn’t changed one iota.

                      OK now I REALLY have to go look for that missing credit card.

                    • And once again, the only reason I can think of is because that is what they do. And I don’t think they do it in terms of a Watergate cover up.

                      I think they do it because like WTKTT has said many times only us wildland firefighters understand us, we know what happened and why, we will make in-house corrective changes and we need to move on, the next fire season is coming up and we need to get ready for it.

                • Well…I am glad that everyone seems to understand that the reader who I agreed with was not saying definitely that is what happened, only that based on the conditions and circumstances on the ground at the time that decision would have been made, it is MOST logical that it came from Marsh, but many others bought into it and were to play a role in.

                  And as far as why they didn’t spin it that way as WTKTT has asked, I don’t know either. But maybe by that time they realized just how foolish and reckless that decision was and they didn’t see the need to damage (in their eyes) the reputation of Type 1A crews and embarrass or make the families angry that their loved had died for such foolish and reckless plan?

                  The only thing that really bothers me, is that IF we are right about the entire concept of a Hail Mary Plan even existing, a lot of people would have known about it.

                  And normally, you can’t keep a secret if more than one person knows about it. So I really am going to try and find a way to shake the story loose as I have been saying.

                  And that way has been suggested to me by another very smart and loyal reader who does not post here because…I don’t know why, but it doesn’t matter.

                  And this goes back to what I have been saying for two years now, but I am embarrassed to admit that I did not connect the dots with what I knew had to be done, which is to develop a Source of Information (SOI), with the time tested way of developing an SOI when appealing to their civic duty does not work.

                  Offer to pay money for the information. How? And who pays? Where does the money come from? We need to work out a lot of details, but the money could come from Crowd Funding.

                  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crowdfunding

                  It would be best if that were done under the banner of the Investigative Media banner because normally a “group” endorses the idea. But if John does not think that is a good idea or something his thread should not be involved in, I would establish a shadow group under a different name, or if nobody wants to support it, I will try it under the GO Banner of In The Pursuit Of Truth, Justice & The American Way Foundation and Website.

                  So…I would like everyone to think about the idea and weigh in if you support the idea, at least in the initial stages of developing it?

                  And I am moving this to the top to make sure it gets noticed.

                  Reply

        • FYI – I agreed with the comment “It is just a scenario that I find difficult to dismiss” from our reader, not “It is just a scenario that I am convinced is correct.”

          And then I said “What we really need is some way to shake the story loose from those who are sitting on it…right?”

          And I thought what WTKTT was disagreeing with me about was whether or not Musser, Able, and Cordes, knew about the plan, which in fact, I think they did know about it.

          Nor did I say “it’s possible to determine if anybody who is still alive is “innocent” or not.”

          I did say however, that I thought that IF Musser, Able, and Cordes bought into the plan under the chaotic circumstances (and yes I know I am more sympathetic when wildfires are managed by Chaos than most) then they didn’t do anything wrong.

          IF…Marsh called one or more of them on the radio or cell and said, “I can get the GMIHC to the backside of Yarnell and we can be in place in time to back fire the dozer line before the fire gets there.” And since he had eyes on the fire, he was the ground commander on scene as Divison A Supervisor and he knew the exact location and status of his crew and he had timed his descent to the Helms Ranch, I don’t see why Musser, Able and Cordes are guilty of being bad fire managers because they bought into that plan by saying, “if you can do it…go for it and let us know what you need.”

          As far as why “they” are obfuscating the truth, it’s like the GEICO commercial say’s…that’s what they do.

          Reply

          • In the old days a big fire was called a “campaign” fire and then later big fires were called “project” fires, I don’t know what they are called now, big “incidents” I guess. In any case, they are big wildfires that require a lot of various resources for multiple shifts to contain.

            That being said, I don’t think I have ever been on a big fire during the first 36 hours that was not managed by Chaos. I have written a version of this before, but it has been awhile.

            “That is why it is so critical that fire line supervisors bring their A-game with them when they go to a big fire. They make the decisions that may mean the difference between life and death for those under their control and who they are responsible for.”

            Reply

          • Reply to Gary Olson post on October 5, 2015 at 10:45 pm

            >> Gary Olson said…
            >>
            >> FYI – I agreed with the comment “It is just a scenario that
            >> I find difficult to dismiss” from our reader, not “It is just
            >> a scenario that I am convinced is correct.”

            I like the symmetry there with…

            “When you have eliminated the impossible… whatever is left ( however improbable ) must be the truth”.

            Unlike the US Forestry Service, Arizona State Forestry, City of Prescott and a host of other people, agencies.. and God-all-who-else… I don’t want the TRUTH to be ‘bent’ in one direction or the other.

            I just want it to be KNOWN.

            In case no one has noticed… everything starts there, as far as I am concerned.

            “There can be no true understanding without first, the truth”

            I put quote marks around that because I’m sure I didn’t say that first… but I don’t remember who did.

            >> Gary Olson also said…
            >>
            >>
            >> And then I said “What we really need is some way to shake
            >> the story loose from those who are sitting on it…right?”
            >>
            >> And I thought what WTKTT was disagreeing with me
            >> about was whether or not Musser, Able, and Cordes, knew
            >> about the plan, which in fact, I think they did know about it.

            Nope. I wasn’t disagreeing with that part of your comment at all.

            It would NOT surprise me at all if they ALL knew about it.

            I also UNDERSTAND what you were saying about them all never being able to be held accountable for ‘buying into’ a plan coming from the mouth of local golden-boy Eric Marsh.

            There is all the evidence in the world that any number of people not only knew WHERE these guys were… but they were actually “cheering” ( even ordering? ) them on.and even telling them to “Hurry up”.

            I think whoever those people are as just as responsible for the tragedy that happened that day as two field managers ( Marsh / Steed ) who actually ‘pulled the trigger’.

            >> Gary Olson also said…
            >>
            >> As far as why “they” are obfuscating the truth, it’s like
            >> the GEICO commercial say’s…that’s what they do.

            Yes… but as one of the persons who pays their fucking salaries… I’m not giving them a ‘free pass’. Sorry.

            Reply

        • Reply to Marti Reed post on October 5, 2015 at 10:04 pm

          >> Marti said…
          >>
          >> OK. Since we all agree, I think, that this point-counterpoint
          >> kind of mulling things over has always been our strong point
          >> (I know I have appreciated it and benefitted from it massively),
          >> as one of the ones who “discovered” this Hail Mary Plan by
          >> continuing to follow the dots over a LONG period of time (and
          >> thank you Calvin for also persisting and thank you Joy (to whom
          >> I owe some emails) for providing some VERY IMPORTANT
          >> dots in June that led to us piecing this together),

          Echoing the same thanks. Yes… that photo that Joy provided ( with permission of the owner ) was VERY important. It proves that Cory Ball WAS right there at the intersection of Fountainhead and Lakewood… right when he should have been according to ‘other evidence’.

          >> Marti also wrote…
          >>
          >> The thing that bugs me the most about all of this is that I think
          >> the SAIT knew about it and attempted to SERIOUSLY hide it
          >> from the record. I think the reason we don’t know about it
          >> enough to be able to, as Gary wrote, “have any definitive proof
          >> this plan existed and was in fact being implanted by Marsh” is
          >> precisely because of that “scrubbing.”

          The ‘scrubbing’ is there for all the world to see.
          It’s not a ‘conspiracy theory’.

          Just look at the Blue Ridge Hotshot Unit logs.

          The USFS has NEVER even said what valid FOIA ‘exemption’ they are even claiming for ALL of those redactions.

          Even for a ‘privacy reasons’ FOIA exemptions… Names, addresses and phone numbers don’t take up entire fucking paragraphs.

          >> Marti also said…
          >>
          >> And I think that “scrubbing” began right there during that
          >> very early (and scathing) SAIT interview with the Blue Ridge
          >> Hotshots. I think Cory Ball was describing it then, and I think
          >> that’s part of what was redacted from his (and possibly
          >> others”) notes,

          I would actually believe the fact that they forgot to ‘scrub’ Cory Ball’s notes well enough to take out that “instructed to scout dozer line near Glen Ilah’ entry was just an actual fuck-up on their part.

          They may have had their own “Oh SHIT!” moment when they actually realized they had actually left that entry unredacted.

          >> Marti also said…
          >>
          >> I think the SAIT also heard those conversations that were
          >> recorded that indicated some people either were wondering
          >> or even knew that Granite Mountain was headed to the
          >> Boulder Springs Ranch in order to get to Glen Isla,

          Of course they did.

          That’s why they consulted with the lawyers and the final statement in the SAIR wasn’t “We found no direct communications with the crew between 3:55 PM and 3:39 PM”.

          What they said was… “We cannot VERIFY any communications”.

          That leaves just the right amount of stinky brown shitload of ‘wiggle room’ they needed to accomplish their goal… but still NOT be accused of ‘lying’.

          They could have had 10 people who knew Eric Marsh standing in a room listening to the 4:27 PM YARNELL-GAMBLE video and they might have ALL been saying… “Yep… no doubt about it… that’s Eric Marsh giving that status report on GM and telling some mysterious person who wanted to know what was taking so long that the reason they weren’t where they were yet is because they were coming ‘from the heel of the fire’…

          …and Jim Karels and Mike Dudley could have STILL said… “Well… that still doesn’t sound like total VERIFICATION of a radio transmission to us”.

          THEY were the ones deciding what evidence was ‘verified’… and what they were going to throw on the trash heap and call ‘unverified’… yet they have never had to explain what criteria this monkey-team was using ( or not using ) to actually VERIFY anything at all.

          >> Marti also said…
          >>
          >> so I think the SAIT knew about the plan and all those communications.

          I would bet money on it ( BOTH things ).

          Speaking of ‘money’…

          >> Marti also said…
          >>
          >> If they didn’t think there was something problematic with it,
          >> why did they go to such efforts to hide it from the record?
          >>
          >> If they didn’t think there was something problematic, why
          >> did they go to such efforts to create and manage a narrative that,
          >> essentially, said, both, that there was no communication going
          >> on during that 30-minute period, and that why GMHS left the
          >> black and went down into that explosive fuel-filled canyon is
          >> a total mystery that went with them to their graves and we
          >> can never possibly know, and THAT is what THE PUBLIC ET
          >> AL still believes to this very day.
          >>
          >> Why didn’t they just come out and say what I think they knew
          >> but didn’t want anybody else to know — even fuzzily — they
          >> saw there might be a way to help put in/backfire/whatever
          >> a dozer line and Gary Cordes thought it might work also, and
          >> highly possibly even Paul Musser, and so they decided to
          >> head to Glen Isla and, unfortunately they didn’t have time to
          >> get there before the fire turned and caught them by surprise
          >> in the canyon?
          >>
          >> I mean, really, what’s the problem with that??????

          $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

          To have admitted that the only reason those men were ordered out of the safety of the black was because of some hair-brained ‘Hail Mary’ plan that was never going to work would have been the worst thing they could have done… according to what their laywers would have been telling them at the time.

          Remember… the original damage amounts being requested for all the wrongful deaths suits combined exceeded the entire annual budget of the City of Prescott.

          And then take a moment to remember what planet this is.

          When that kind of $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ comes onto the table… the TRUTH always take a backseat.

          >> Marti also said…
          >>
          >> Given what I believe is the truth that Gary is writing, I think
          >> everybody would have been able to forgive everybody if
          >> that had been the “official narration.” It’s quite understandable,
          >> all things considered.

          And people still will… when it all finally comes out…

          …but at the time Mike Dudley and Jim Karels were ‘at work’… they were looking at (perhaps) the City of Prescott coming up for sale on eBay if
          they actually told ‘the real story’…. and the State of Arizona having to get another huge loan from the Chinese.

          Forgiveness is always fine. The TRUTH usually COSTS.

          >> Marti also wrote…
          >>
          >> Instead they they apparently immediately (as by the time
          >> they were interviewing the Blue Ridge Hotshots) decided to
          >> start and do whatever it took to maintain this whole “mystery”
          >> narrative that they knew was not true.

          Jim Karels and Mike Dudley were doing the job THEY were PAID to do.

          >> Marti also wrote…
          >>
          >> What did that gain them?

          Mike Dudley has already been promoted.
          Jim Karels can probably also now ‘punch his own ticket’ whenever he wants.

          >> Marti also wrote…
          >>
          >> A lot of the public still believes it, but from what I’ve read, a
          >> huge part of both the public and fire-fighters think it is bogus.

          Yes, they do.

          >> Marti also said…
          >>
          >> I’m still struggling with the question of “Who, exactly, are
          >> they protecting, and why?”

          You are talking about a business that always has trouble attracting GOOD help and always depends on…

          1) The old-timers believing they will be ‘protected’ by the system.
          2) The young dog-work being done for something other than shit money.

          They HAVE to protect ‘the system’ as it is.

          It has to remain “the hero business”… or they won’t fill the seats.

          >> Marti also said…
          >>
          >> PS to WTKTT. Regarding Paul/Justin Moran, I think we, way
          >> back in June when we were re-piecing this, decided that he
          >> did drive the dozer thru Glen Isla and then over that other
          >> street and down onto 89, but nobody saw him do that.

          I don’t remember reaching that conclusion at all.

          My only recollection is that from the moment Calvin ( the steely eyed rocket men ) did his first ‘slowly I turned’ moment and asked us all…

          “Hey… what about the dozer guy? Why was Ranger 58 looking for him?”

          ….it has ( and remains ) a TOTAL MYSTERY where this Paul Morin guy really WAS at the moment 19 men were burning to death 640 yards west of the Boulder Springs Ranch.

          If I’m going brain-dead on this one, myself, remind me WHY we ‘decided’ that he must have ‘driven out’? I really don’t recall making that conclusion,
          not even during the Joy-Collura photo inspired revisit back in June.

          >> Marti also said…
          >>
          >> And another PS. I really believe identifying those 4:00-4:30 radio
          >> conversations is critical in this, WHO KNEW??? I think that is
          >> important, all things considered. Since I, right now, don’t have
          >> access to the relevant files, I want to ask WTKTT if he thinks
          >> there is any possibility that the voice in the conversation
          >> with Bravo 33 that led into someone with a hard drawl
          >> asking “Waz yo status?” might have been Tony Sciacca?

          I actually don’t… and here is exactly why.

          There is NO QUESTION that at exactly 4:13 PM… someone with what sounds like a heavy Lousiana-Cajun accent called out to ‘Granite Mountain’ on one of the TAC channels and asked the following ( and it sounded like this )…

          “Granite Montun… wuz yo status rat now?”

          When the US Forestry Service finally admitted they had ALWAYS been withholding TONS of Helmet-Cam video taken all afternoon in Yarnell by their own Prescott National Forest employee Aaron Hulburd… we also got a video capturing Tony Sciacca standing in the parking lot of the Shrine of St. Joseph and talking on his cellphone.

          Sciacca had just placed a cellphone call to ( or all people ) Russ Shumate back at his home in Prescott because Sciacca needed OPS2 Paul Musser’s cellphone number.

          He actually asked Shumate…

          “Do you have Paul Musser’s cellphone number? I need it REAL BAD right now”.

          Notice the last two words… “right now”.

          If you compare that recording of Tony Sciacca saying “right now” to the same two words “rat now” heard at 4:13 PM… I would say there is ‘no match’.

          Tony Sciacca has a high, sort of ‘whiny’ voice with a distinct nasal placement.

          The ‘mystery caller’ at 4:13 has a much lower-tone timbre and more of a ‘back-of-the-throat’ vocal placement.

          So no… I don’t think there’s much chance the 4:13 PM mystery caller was, in fact, Tony Sciacca… but I could also be totally wrong.

          Since we still don’t know WHO it was… theory says it could have been anybody.

          I would trade every reputation I’ve ever had for having good ears and be GLAD to be proved ‘totally wrong’ in exchange for knowing who that ‘mystery caller’ really was at 4:13 PM… as well as WHO the target of Eric Marsh’s ‘status report’ was at 4:27 PM.

          Reply

          • Thanks for all of this WTKTT. (And also Gary).

            I should have been clearer regarding the voices. Sorry.

            I wasn’t talking about the “waz yo status” voice.

            I was talking about the one in the conversation with Bravo 33 before that. The one that was questioning Bravo 33 if they knew where Granite Mountain was and what they were doing. I meant to be asking you if you thought THAT voice could have been Tony’s or the Prescotteer Jason Clawson.

            I’ve been meaning to bring this up for awhile now, but the conversation had turned so deeply in other directions and my time has been limited so I let it pass.

            The other person that was “just driving around,” while most likely listening to his radio (for various reasons) was the Wickenburg Fire Chief in that red Wickenburg truck, Ed Temerowski. I tried to find out where he is from, just in case, but I think he’s actually from Wickenburg. And I have no clue what his voice sounds like.

            i don’t think we’re going to find the owner of the hard drawl without somebody chiming in.

            More later on the dozer.

            Reply

          • You wrote:

            “>> PS to WTKTT. Regarding Paul/Justin Moran, I think we, way
            >> back in June when we were re-piecing this, decided that he
            >> did drive the dozer thru Glen Isla and then over that other
            >> street and down onto 89, but nobody saw him do that.

            I don’t remember reaching that conclusion at all.

            My only recollection is that from the moment Calvin ( the steely eyed rocket men ) did his first ‘slowly I turned’ moment and asked us all…

            “Hey… what about the dozer guy? Why was Ranger 58 looking for him?”

            ….it has ( and remains ) a TOTAL MYSTERY where this Paul Morin guy really WAS at the moment 19 men were burning to death 640 yards west of the Boulder Springs Ranch.

            If I’m going brain-dead on this one, myself, remind me WHY we ‘decided’ that he must have ‘driven out’? I really don’t recall making that conclusion,
            not even during the Joy-Collura photo inspired revisit back in June.”

            I just found it. Apparently we got an email from Joy with information from an eye-witness who saw the dozer on the lowboy.

            It starts here:

            “WantsToKnowTheTruth says
            JUNE 16, 2015 AT 6:10 PM

            Copy that on TIME for photo 097 now being probably LATER than 4:15 PM.

            Also copy that on the eyewitness report of dozer being seen ON the LOBOY.

            I’m still ‘catching up’ with everything that was sent… but I find no reason to DOUBT that eye-witness account.”

            http://www.investigativemedia.com/yarnell-hill-fire-chapter-xv/#comment-299918

            Reply

            • Yes… but then in the comments AFTER the one you found we ended up ‘hedging’? That’s what I remember.

              I believe we concluded regardless of any eyewitness report about seeing a ‘dozer on a loboy’… that COULD have been someone remembering seeing it go IN. No exact ‘time’ was given.

              Bottom line is that IF the dozer really did come out… WHERE did it go and WHY did dozer operator Paul Morin still end up on the ‘missing persons’ list and someone told Ranger 58 to look for him right along with Granite Mountain?

              From the comments under the one you just posted…

              WTKTT said…
              ———————————————————-
              It’s possible we are looking at a situation where the dozer really DID follow Ball out of there at first… but now maybe Cordes sent it back IN?… as part of this ‘plan’?… but there was ( of course ) no TIME left for that plan to come together.

              There’s still two things that aren’t going to go away here.

              1.) Cory Ball’s statement in his own Unit Log that “he and one other” were told to go scout for a place to put in some emergency dozer line to protect Glen Ilah.

              Exact TIME that assignment was made: Unknown.

              2.) The dozer operator ( assuming Paul Morin ) ended up on the “missings persons” list along with Granite Mountain.

              Exact REASON he was on that list: Still unknown.
              ———————————————————–

              Marti wrote…
              ———————————————————–
              And I’m currently thinking the description of what was going on from Joy’s source may have happened when Cory Ball, after acquiring the ATV, drove BACK in.
              ———————————————————–

              Reply

            • Here’s another place where we discussed the dozer coming out of Glen Ilah with “nobody” seeing it:

              “Marti Reed says
              JUNE 18, 2015 AT 10:59 AM
              …..
              Just had a thought. Maybe it WOULD have made sense for Morin to drive out via Fountainhill. Maybe there was less traffic on it. I mean we’ve seen all those cars pouring out of Lakewood onto 89. And, apparently, most everybody going in was going in on Lakewood also.”

              And you replied:

              “WantsToKnowTheTruth says
              JUNE 18, 2015 AT 4:05 PM

              …but here’s another VERY practical reason why he might have chose Fountainhill instead of Lakewood ( and, hence, ‘crossed paths’ with Ball coming back in on Lakewood and that’s how they actually ‘missed’ each other ).

              If Paul Morin was heading NORTH… perhaps all the way to the ICP where they had been requesting him to come, anyway, earlier in the afternoon… then as he came EAST on Lakewood taking the northerly shortcut to Highway 89 via Fountainhill would have made perfect sense.

              It simply would have been ‘more direct’ for him to do THAT ( if he KNEW he was going to go north )… and it actually would have been an EASIER ‘left turn’ onto Highway 89 for him and that rig than trying to make a similar left turn onto Highway 89 from Lakewood.

              Has to do with the ANGLE in which these roads actually meet Highway 89.

              Left off of Fountainhill would have been MUCH easier for him, in that rig.”

              http://www.investigativemedia.com/yarnell-hill-fire-chapter-xv/#comment-300148

              OK I”ve gotta go look for a missing credit card.

              Reply

              • Thank you, Marti… yes… I remember this discussion now…. but I still don’t recall us ‘deciding’ that he MUST have driven out.

                Based on that new ‘eyewitness’ account being reported from Joy… we were just ‘playing the scenarios’ to see how they would fit.

                We still can’t say for sure WHERE this dozer ended up.

                I really, really, really wish some set of investigators had nailed this down when THEY had the (best) chance to do so.

                Reply

                • Well between the first linked conversation and the second linked conversation, there was a miles-long set of conversations regarding the various things that happened, including all the handings off of the dozer from so-and-so to so-and-so and such and such.

                  It was pretty clear that nothing had happened to either the dozer or the operator, because they were both put back to work without much of a hitch. It’s just that somebody didn’t know where they were, so they got put on the list, but apparently that was just a mistake.

                  Reply

                  • Marti…

                    This thread is continued with a new parent comment up above.

                    http://www.investigativemedia.com/yarnell-hill-fire-chapter-xvi/#comment-310446

                    Next message is along the lines of “If the dozer really DID get REMOVED from the Sesame area… that means whatever plan *might* have been in place for ’emergency dozer line’ was being aborted”.

                    If that is the case… then here comes another “One answer leads to more questions” scenario.

                    If even that ill-conceived ‘plan’ was then being aborted circa 4:15… then why didn’t someone in fire command make sure Granite Mountain was “called off”?

                    There would still have been time for them to save themselves.

                    Reply

  49. Well…we had a very nice day Jeeping on the beach here in sunny Washington, all of my previous experiences in life had been on tightly controlled and grossly overcrowded beaches in southern California or Georgia before this. And up here, almost anything goes on miles and miles of deserted ocean beaches. Wild.

    In addition, it has recently come to my attention that the Free Joy page on my http://www.ourfiregods.com web site is inappropriate because true to my conspiracy theorist roots, I now see a conspiracy just about everywhere I look when it comes to the aftermath of the Yarnell Hill Fire. So…a Free Joy page on my existing website is just not going to cut it.

    Therefore, I am taking suggestions in my email box for what I should call my new website where I will post everything that might get John Dougherty in trouble on this thread with shit bag lawyers, because well…I just don’t care about anything except getting this right. And I was just joking of course about calling it KarenFannTheFascist.

    Although frankly, I have never understood what the problem is with those who loved the Granite Mountain Interagency Hotshot Crew when it comes to my (our) conspiracy theories. There are only two choices here. Pick one.

    1. Eric Marsh (and Jesse Steed) made the single biggest tactical error in the history of wildland firefighter in general and hotshots in particular that no one can understand or explain…all by themselves that led directly to their own horrible deaths and those of their crew while simultaneously breaking almost all of the safety rules at once; or

    2. Darrell Willis et al, put so much pressure on them to be hero’s, make good press, risk a lot to save a lot, and thereby save the crew from the Prescott City Council chopping block because they weren’t revenue neutral or actually making money for the City of Prescott AND someone, or multiple someone’s, in a position of authority over Eric Marsh came up with a last minute Hail Mary Plan to back fire the backside of Yarnell from a hastily constructed dozer line and talked Marsh into buying into it and unfortunately, you have to add everything in Number 1 as well.

    Of course there is a third option that appeal to some. God had a different plan for these men.

    Reply

    • I agree with number 2, including number 1.

      That’s why I ranted down below, comparing this to my brother’s death….

      It still is, as it has been from the very get-go, including BEFORE the deployment, ALL about controlling the narrative.

      And I’m not sure what you should call the website. I’m not sure of the scope. And are you going to invite some of the conversation to migrate there?

      I still consider this “place” to be something of a campfire circle. I guess some people are afraid of our campfire blowing “out of control” also.

      Alas, the Yarnell HIll Wildfire is still burning out of control and all we are doing is to try to watch and document and understand that.

      And, yes, the Northwest Coast beaches are AWESOME!!!

      Reply

      • No…I don’t want any conversation to migrate there, but there may be some things that John either doesn’t want, or can’t have posted on this thread because he may become a target for shit bag lawyers. He has a permanent address and assets to lose. Whereas I am off the rez.

        All I know about posting right now, is the audio and transcript from the hearing that Joy had because Amanda Marsh, the Pfingston’s and others were trying silence and intimidate her, which worked very well I might add. It is amazing what you can do when you are willing to abuse the court system and you are convinced that your personal mission from God is Righteous!

        But I am not going to post anything until after Joy’s punishment is complete because she can’t talk about it until then and figuring out how to post a court audio and getting the transcript done is a time consuming process.

        If John is OK with posting the transcript here, than that is what should be done, I am just trying to plan ahead in case it is too hot to handle for someone with a permanent address and assets. I don’t have either one.

        The main reason I am writing about it, is because if Representative Fann and The Board start getting some push back and realize that everything they are doing is no longer behind closed doors (or will not stay behind closed doors forever) and that someone is watching them, they may cool their jets…I hope.

        Reply

        • In other words, right now I could call the website “FreeJoy” and it would be accurate, but if The Board keeps taking away my God given right to visit any State Park in the nation during normal operating hours…I am going to become…unhappy.

          Reply

          • I mean…God given right may be a stretch, but you are probably able to pick up what I am putting down without taking my rhetoric literally…right?

            Reply

    • I actually didn’t take my logic far enough or I left out a part, take your pick. If you accept Number 2 as being correct, then you add Number 1 except for the, “no one can understand or explain” part because if you accept Number 2, all of us can understand and explain what happened.

      We don’t like it and we wish it would not have happened, but we can understand why it happened and explain it. The GMIHC under the supervision of Eric Marsh and Jesse Steed left the black in a futile attempt to reach the backside of Yarnell BEFORE the fire in an attempt to provide the ground forces necessary to back fire from the dozer line.

      They could not wait for the fire front to pass before attempting to reach the Helms Ranch because then it would have been too late to play a pivotal role in trying to save Yarnell.

      They could not follow they two track around to the Helms Ranch because they believed that would put them in position too late to try and save Yarnell. This was flawed logic because even though the path down the chute was shorter, it would have taken more time to complete.

      They thought they could make it because Eric Marsh timed his descent down the chute, but in his enthusiasm to get his crew in position, he failed to calculate in two critical factors.

      1. He was faster than most crewmembers. In part because of his superior physical conditioning, and partly because he was carrying less gear (I didn’t not see a photo of Marsh even carrying a tool) nor was he carrying all of the gear so many other were which included chain saws and saw packs.

      2. A crew line always moves like a “slinky” even through moderately difficult terrain. With the back two thirds bunching up behind the front one third, and then when the terrain opens up the front one third is able to advance quickly, but then the back one third is still bunched up behind the middle one third and then to maintain the integrity of the crew line, the front one third has to pause, to allow the others to catch up otherwise the crew becomes hopelessly scattered over a long distance and then effectiveness to move and act as a crew is compromised and communication becomes challenging.

      The bottom line is this. The crew was not able to make descent down the chute anywhere near as fast as Eric did, and the fire greatly exceeded his expectations.

      And Eric did not realize the significance of his error until it was too late to take corrective action because the crew was trapped low on a steep slope in a box canyon directly in front of the racing wildfire. And to make matters worse, the fire then hooked around below them and cut off any further descent.

      I believe these errors were then compounded by attempting to prep and deploy their fire shelters in an area that was not survivable. They should have dropped everything, except for their fire shelters and ran for the boulders behind them. I understand it was not a good option, but as I have often stated, if the area you have to deploy your fire shelter is not survivable, you have to run. Because then you will at least die on your feet moving away from the flames.

      Reply

    • Thank You Gary.

      For your efforts.

      For your abilities.

      For your quirks.

      For your IQ that I lack—

      I would love to get to the “bottom” of why I was handled as I have been in a partial way the past annual.

      Thank you for looking into it. Thank you for reaching out to folks who may provide the answers.

      In doing this…I do hope good will is spread and new fresh start beginnings…I have been consistent and realistic with my abilities and capabilities. You are right Gary; they have been documented and watched very closely…plenty of wide eyed investigators watching plus people like WWTKTT catching the state park meeting cannot even follow the laws on getting the minutes up and if they do they are not well put together.

      Mostly, thank you for taking the time out…to get the materials…and to see things from how I perceive it so I can be further educated…Fernanda Santos and Bob Powers are another two who really take time out of their lives to help me comprehend because I am “slow”…this is not a pick your battles kind of situation but it is a battle…there is not a soul I do not like…I always had led my life with motto “worry about your own backyard” …I would say to self “don’t get mixed up in other peoples’ business and create unnecessary enemies. Busybodies make quick enemies, usually because there’s not enough going on to keep them occupied. Stay busy and keep your life full of interesting and engaging activities so you don’t have the time and energy to worry about what your neighbors are doing.” BUT THAT CHANGED when I moved to this here ghost town…and this tragedy…

      If I do not get my apology from the state of Arizona…not only will I never purchase another permit from them but I also will never educate others about their darn permits. Thank you again Gary for not deprecating me and my concern of my constitutional rights/my hikes.

      You are generous spirit.
      See you in mid January 2016…

      Reply

      • Thank you for your generous comments Joy. But there is one thing I do not have and that is a high IQ. I am clever at times and cunning at other times, but the only thing I have always has going for myself on a regular basis is…tenacity.And a certain willingness to take some risks that make many other people…stop.

        But in the meantime, I think we should keep after them because your case reminds me in a very small way of something I read once;

        First they came for the Socialists, and I did not speak out—
        Because I was not a Socialist.

        Then they came for the Trade Unionists, and I did not speak out—
        Because I was not a Trade Unionist.

        Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out—
        Because I was not a Jew.

        Then they came for me—and there was no one left to speak for me.

        Your adversaries in this case have many people to speak for them, I think my job here is to speak for you. And I am going to talk using my favorite medium nowadays…a website, unless they back off and let all of us pay our respects to OUR dead whenever and however we please as long as it is during normal park operating hours and is not illegal..

        I think it was Sonny who said, they ask the world to grieve for the Granite Mountain Interagency Hotshot Crew and we did… now their memory belongs to all of us.

        And FYI – You don’t really need an apology from those assholes, you just need them to leave you alone and stop abusing their power and influence to expand the rights of those they like, while restricting the rights of those they don’t like.

        God Bless America!

        Reply

    • Hey Gary,

      I have been away for awhile and now trying to catch up. Of course I am in with choice number 2!

      Reply

      • Right on Norb! I’m glad you made it back to our little on-line dysfunctional family, I was worried about you.

        Reply

  50. **
    ** REPORT RELEASED ON VALLEY FIRE ENTRAPMENT
    ** THAT TOOK PLACE SEPTEMBER 12, 2015
    **
    ** MAYDAY CALL NOW ( FINALLY ) A STANDARD IN WFF RADIO PROTOCOL?

    A pretty detailed report has just been released on the 4 Helitack who were severly burned on the Valley Fire less than one month ago… on September 12, 2015.

    It’s hard to make sense of all the described ‘moves’ these guys made ( they kept moving to try and stay alive )… but it’s pretty clear they got caught with no real safety plan.

    The report ( and location diagrams ) also confirm they were NOT in the ‘boondock’..

    It was JARN ( Just Another Residential Area ) and they were ‘protecting houses’.

    A copy of the actual new report is sitting here..

    http://wildfiretoday.com/documents/GreenSheetValleyFire.pdf

    Has the MAYDAY call finally become standard in the WFF World?

    Let’s hope so.

    From the report itself…
    ————————————————————-
    “May-Day” was transmitted from FC1 and was heard over the radio.
    ————————————————————-

    A good summary of the new report is here…

    Wildfire Today
    Article Title: Report released for entrapment of firefighters on the Valley Fire
    Posted on October 3, 2015 by Bill Gabbert
    http://wildfiretoday.com/2015/10/03/report-released-for-entrapment-of-firefighters-on-the-valley-fire/

    From this ‘summary’ of the report…
    ————————————————————-
    The report lists 13 “Safety issues for review and lessons learned”. Here are the first five:

    1) Crews must utilize L.C.E.S when engaged in firefighting operations.
    2) ALL Ten Standard Fire Orders MUST be obeyed at ALL TIMES.
    3) Personnel MUST wear ALL CAL FIRE APPROVED PPE when engaged in firefighting operation.
    4) Modifying Personal Protective Equipment can alter the protective properties.
    5) Practice and prepare for shelter deployment in adverse and extreme conditions.
    ————————————————————-

    There are no comments yet over at Wildfire Today.

    ** ACTUAL LOCATION

    The report now gives the actual location of the deployment.

    From the report…
    ——————————————————————
    On Saturday, September 12, 2015, at approximately 1323 hours, a helitack crew was dispatched to a vegetation fire as part of an initial attack wildland response. The vegetation fire was reported at 8015 High Valley Road, in Kelseyville, California.
    ——————————————————————

    That address isn’t all that close to where they deployed. They got ‘trapped’ a ways away from there trying to protect houses in another residential area down towards Alder Creek.

    There is a satellite map on page 7 of the official report that has all the relevant locations marked, but no GPS coordinates are given in the report.

    Here are some exact GPS coordinates that matche the LABELS being used on the maps and photographs in this report…

    HEEL OF THE FIRE
    38.844518, -122.758656

    RES1 ( Residence 1 ) – Center of roof is here…
    38.844384, -122.759562

    RES2 ( Residence 2 ) – Center of roof is here…
    38.842297, -122.754503

    RES3 ( Residence 3 ) – Center of roof is here…
    38.842142, -122.750936

    RES4 ( Residence 4 ) – Center of roof is here…
    38.842318, -122.751998

    DEPLOYMENT SITE
    38.841781, -122.752905

    Just enter any of the latitude, longitude lines above ( complete with comma ) into
    the Search bar of Google Maps and a marker will appear on the map that
    appears showing that exact location.

    Reply

    • Followup…

      I’ve read the report any number of times now and I still cannot figure out what these 4 guys even THOUGHT they were trying to accomplish.

      There is a very detailed account of their MOVEMENTS from the moment they dropped out of the chopper to the moments they were ‘crouching’ around with their fire shelters and running to different places to try and stay alive ( they never actually ‘deployed’ in the accepted sense of the word… they were only trying to use their shelters as ‘heat shields’ while they still moved around )… but despite all the descriptions of their movements…

      …there is really no information about what the fuck these guys were DOING or what they even THOUGHT they were trying to accomplish.

      They leave just ONE GUY ( with just a hand tool? ) at a structure and they told him to ‘defend it’? Are you fucking kidding me?

      With regards to the decisions they were making and the situations they were purposely putting themselves into… all I am seeing is good ‘ol stupidity and good ‘ol DI

      DI = Depraved Indifference ( as the law defines it ).

      What am I missing?

      Reply

      • Two of the four badly burned men even waited so long before even trying to pull their shelters out that the clear-plastic covering that encases the shelter had fucking MELTED onto the outer-protection layer of the shelter itself.

        One guy kept working at it and finally got his shelter usable… but the other guy’s shelter casing was so melted by the time he was even trying to use it that he had to throw it on the ground and then run to some other guy and ‘gang up’ with him and share HIS shelter.

        Even then… all they did was ‘crouch’ in the shelters and then move from place to place trying to stay alive ( from the goat pen to various sides of the steel building and garage and then finally into the middle of the road between the goat-pen and the steel building… after shit in the steel building started EXPLODING.

        What kind of frickin’ TRAINING do these ‘Helitack’ guys get, anyway?

        And who is supposed to make sure the GET that training?

        Anyone?

        Reply

        • California State —- Cal Fire They should know better.

          The 13 Safety Violations covers it—What the fuck were they doing there in the First place?????????????????

          Helitack and Hand Crews are Wild Land Crews not Structure Urban interface crews. They build line not protection.

          WE have turned a corner into a dead end with hand crews
          and need to reassess the uses of such crews in Urban Interface. Build Line and Contain and Control.
          I will say again to a Wild Land Fire Fighter Hand crew
          ——-Structures are just a part of the fuel bed——
          Build line to contain and control the Fire. Trees Brush Grass and Structures are either inside or outside that Line.
          When a fire Happens its to late to try and save Individual structures with Hand Crews. Only Engines with lots of water can do that with DEFENSIABLE SPACE.

          Reply

            • There are obvious similarities to the Yarnell Hill tragedy here… with regards to piss-poor decision making… but there is a HUGE similarity to the Twisp Fire tragedy.

              A RESIDENTIAL AREA… with defined ROADS leading to houses that were not ‘fire-wised’ in any way.

              The ONLY ingress/egress into/outof that area should have been a fire command vehicle warning everyone to ( as Chief Don Waller said in Twisp ) “Get out NOW or you are going to DIE”.

              There are even radio captures saying on one should be in that area .

              Yet… we end up with FFs in the area, anyway… either eventually dying horrible deaths or needing to be saved from same.

              There is a COMMON THEME here.

              It really does come back to ‘policy’ and ‘expectations’ and ( as Gary has pointed out over and over ) the FAILINGS of this ‘Unified Command’ approach to fighting the new Urban Interface Wildfires.

              The coffee is brewing ( hot ).
              People are DYING.
              It’s time for a LOT of ‘Fire Gods’ to wake up and SMELL IT.

              Reply

              • I agree with everything you said except I do want to point to the drum I have been beating all along. In that although there are similarities on the Yarnell Hill Fire to probably almost any disaster fire, I maintain the Yarnell Hill Fire was in a category all by itself and off all of the known charts.

                I think there are a lot of similarities between the Esperanza Fire, the Twisp Fire and now the Valley Fire.

                I think there are a lot of similarities between the Loop Fire, the Battlement Creek Fire and the South Canyon Fire.

                But I really do think the Yarnell Hill is above and beyond all others and not just because of the unusually high death toll.

                Reply

                • OK. I’ll bite.

                  Why do you think “the Yarnell Hill is above and beyond all others and not just because of the unusually high death toll”?

                  I’m not asking to be adversarial. I just truly want to know.

                  Reply

          • Reply to Bob Powers post on October 4, 2015 at 7:21 am

            >> Bob Powers said…
            >>
            >> I will say again to a Wild Land Fire Fighter Hand crew
            >> ——-Structures are just a part of the fuel bed——

            And in the case of THIS ‘Valley Fire” incident ( even moreso than the Twisp Fire or Yarnell fatalities )… you can “certainly say that again”.

            You can see how absurd the situation was just by looking at the satellite photo in the ‘Valley Fire’ report itself.

            When I jumped into ‘Google Maps’ to get the exact GPS coordinates for all the ‘Residences’ and the ‘goat pens’ and the ‘steel buildings’ they were referencing in the report… I had trouble even FINDING the roofs of some of these things because they were all so embedded in the TREES there.

            Totally indefensible structures… with the trees coming RIGHT up to the houses… but there they were… defending them.

            One of the parts I don’t get is that there was, in fact, a ROAD leading right to this place where they all ended up trying to survive.

            It’s the same ROAD that was used by the two guys in the pickup truck who came to rescue them… and probably saved them from death.

            That ROAD connect right to ‘Bottle Creek Road’ to the east.

            But these guys came “Over the river ( Alder creek ) and through the woods… to grandma’s house” from the WEST, where they had been dropped near the heel of the fire.

            They should have STAYED THERE ( at the heel of the fire ).

            But no… some crewboss ( Identified only as FC1 )… then did the following…

            1) He went ‘cross country’ to the EAST to ‘scout ahead’ and see how they could get near the structures he wanted to ‘defend’.

            2) He ‘called back’ to the others and ordered them to ‘bump up’ in the direction he had gone… on some deer trail.

            3) The men followed… lost their ‘eyes on the fire’.

            4) There was no lookout, no planned escape route, and they had no idea what roads or trails were to the WEST where they were headed towards those structures.

            5) They ( apparently ) had NO MAPS and were not familiar enough with the area as they headed off into unburned fuel to know what all their ‘escape route’ options even were.

            Sound familiar?

            In the end… they just huddled in the middle of that road between the goat pen and the steel building, hoping to survive.

            The guys who came to rescue them were taking some ‘heat’… but they simply drove their damn pickup down the road towards where they were… honked the horn when they saw them… and then they just got into the back of the pickup and it was a short drive to safety.

            There was still ‘heat’ on that road… and the report says one of the guys stood with them in the back of the pickup holding their shelters over them as the pickup drove out.

            All that proves is that despite the heat on the road… it was still survivable to travel even after they had been ‘deploying’ out there by the goat pen.

            They just ( apparently ) didn’t KNOW where that road really went and made no attempt to ‘escape’ that way.

            They just waited for the pickup to come and honk its horn.

            No situational awareness.
            No full grasp of what could happen in that fuel type, under those drought conditons.
            No maps.
            No lookout.
            Poor choices for deploying when the time came.

            Again… sound familiar?

            Reply

            • Followup…

              ALL of those ‘RESx’ structures being referred to in the report were SO ’embedded in the fuel’… that I can’t actually fully guarantee the GPS I posted for the ‘final entrapment’ residence location.

              I believe I got it right… but that residence and property where they ended up trying to burn to death is SO obscured by the trees that it was hard to be 100 percent accurate about where this ‘goat pen’ and ‘garden’ and ‘steel building’ really were.

              I believe I got it right down to 10 or 20 yards or so… but that entire place was so much ‘part of the fuel’ that I still can’t be 100 percent sure of that posted GPS coordinate.

              Reply

              • By the way… just thought I’d point something out.

                It’s been more than 24 hours since Bill Gabbert posted his article ( and a link to his copy of the report ) over at his ‘Wildfire Today’ site…

                http://wildfiretoday.com/2015/10/03/report-released-for-entrapment-of-firefighters-on-the-valley-fire/

                …but there is still not ONE SINGLE COMMENT about it at the bottom of that ariticle ( even though it has been fully open for comment since it was posted ).

                No comments from his readership.
                Not one.
                Zero. Zip. Nada.

                “Nothing to see here…. move along… move along…”

                Reply

                • Either that or many responders like me have been blocked from his little fiefdom. But his little experiment seems to only draw a few responses a short term of 3 or 4 days then they move on to something else.

                  Reply

              • I think you’re pretty much there.

                It pretty much looks like what I’m reading in the report.

                Only thing I can’t see is the “driveway” the rescuers drove up to get to the Deployment Site. I think they were bushwacking it in the truck. I think 15185 Bottle Rock Road is actually Residence 4. For what it’s worth.

                Reply

                • And, ps, I’ve been sitting here thinking, it’s really fortunate, especially for those two “FC”s that nobody got killed on this one.

                  Because I think they came pretty close.

                  Reply

                  • Yea… I would say when you are already exposed to so much heat that it has MELTED your own PPE equipment to the point where it is unusable…

                    …you are damn lucky to live to talk about it.

                    Reply

      • I’m with you, WTKTT.

        I finally got this all mapped in Google Earth, which is what I’m most familiar with and where I have all my stuff mapped (not online tho).

        None of it makes any sense whatsoever, at least to me.

        They’re walking through all of that stuff, “looking for structures to defend”??????????????????????

        And then they leave one firefighter alone at a house to defend it????? With what?????

        And FC2 ends up to the south of them around two other structures?? With, apparently “FF6” with him.

        And this is a helitack crew??? Wandering and bush-whacking cross-country on foot through that burning area looking for structures to defend with no Engines???????

        Something’s seriously wrong here. But, no worry. They’re all now heroes and all is well.

        It used to be that on wildlandfire.com, stuff like this actually got talked about. No longer. Not a word anywhere.

        It’s really mind-boggling.

        Reply

        • I’m gonna post a few things I found to help orient myself, that you might find helpful, also, if you haven’t already found them.

          “Lake County residents tell of futile effort to halt Valley fire at its start”

          http://www.pressdemocrat.com/news/4483703-181/lake-county-residents-tell-of?page=3?gallery=4483828

          “In the hours before wind-driven flames erupted into a firestorm that turned the eyes of the world on rural Lake County, a strong scent of smoke on the northern flank of Cobb Mountain caught Jim Fulkerson’s attention.

          Going out to investigate, Fulkerson, who lives part-time on the 8000 block of High Valley Road near Bottle Rock Road in the community of Cobb, found several patches of grass burning in a the field near a neighbor’s home about 200 yards away.”

          The article begins with a photo of “CalFire investigators collect information at the residence where the Valley Fire started on High Valley Rd. Photo taken on Tuesday, September 15, 2015 in Cobb, California. (BETH SCHLANKER/ The Press Democrat)”

          It’s the house at 8015 High Valley Road.

          “The firefight started there, with another neighbor, Troy Nelson, 40, grabbing a garden hose and frantically, fruitlessly trying to squirt water on the quickly expanding fire.”
          …

          ““The winds were whirling. The winds were just outrageous,” Zimmerman, 61, said Tuesday. “You could just tell ‘We’re in trouble,’ and it kept burning toward his house.”
          …….

          “One of four people who own the house where the fire appears to have started, Jim Pinch, said he and his wife were visiting family when the fire broke out and are “as much in the dark” as anybody. He said they still have not been able to return home, though both his and the home where Nelson lives survived.”
          ………………..

          “Waiting for firefighters to arrive, Nelson took out is cellphone and recorded some video of the fire.

          Within minutes, the flames had reached a nearby house, its contents exploding in the heat, likely from ammunition stored inside, Nelson said.

          “That house is gone,” Nelson says on the video, predicting the fire’s spread. “There’s nothing to stop it. I’ve hiked these hills so far back here. There’s just rolling hills back this direction.

          At one point, the fire briefly reversed direction and came back toward Bennett’s home, though it, too ultimately was saved. Nelson was still on the scene when the first fire engine arrived. He saw a helicopter land not far off to initiate an attack on the blaze. It was likely the Boggs Mountain Helitack Crew 104. Four of its members would be overrun by the fire before 4 p.m., forcing the men into emergency tent-like shelters. They all suffered second-degree burns and remain under treatment at a Sacramento hospital.

          Nelson said he wanted to stay until he knew his landlord’s property was safe, but said he had to go when manzanita bushes opposite the driveway ignited.

          “I peeled out of there, to tell the truth,” Nelson said. “The fire was coming up on us. When they caught, the fire was like 30 feet tall and we had to go.”
          …………………

          So I’m sitting here, after writing the above, thinking, hmmmmm, apparently an engine had arrived on scene, but apparently the helitack crew took off on foot cross-country to “protect structures” in the midst of that kind of a fire without the engine?????
          “

          Reply

        • Another thing that might be helpful is this:

          “MAP: Damage assessment details extent of Valley fire destruction”

          http://www.lakeconews.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=43473:-map-damage-assessment-details-extent-of-valley-fire-destruction&catid=1:latest&Itemid=197

          “Officials have released damage inspection information that maps the destruction the Valley fire has left behind in south Lake County’s communities.”

          I haven’t had time to dig into that, and it took me a long time just to find out where the fire started, and where the deployment happened, but it might be useful to look on that to see what actually burned in that area where the helitack crew was wandering on foot around, thinking they could defend houses without an engine.

          Reply

          • Oh, and by the way, I found that link in a wildlandfire.org thread regarding defensible space.

            http://hotlist.wildlandfire.com/threads/15974-Defensible-Space/page4

            The poster brought it up and said, “I just came across an online Damage Inspection Map for the Valley Fire. It is sobering to see the extent of the loss, and also, when you turn on the aerial photos, to see how many of the damaged homes lacked good defensible space clearance.”

            It was a good thread, but, it still just boggles my mind that all these firefighters are, apparently, not even talking about the decision-making that got this helitack crew into an almost fatal situation in that obviously indefensible space.

            Reply

        • Oh, and just for kicks, I guess, here is the CalFire Structure Defense Guide, all compacted in a little, simplified, four-page PDF:

          http://www.wildlandfire.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/05/2015-05-29_5567afce6e532_CALFIREStructureDefenseChecklist2.pdf

          It starts out with this:

          SURVIVAL
          • Initial Assessment: can you survive here? If not, LEAVE NOW!
          • Is there a Safety Zone nearby? If not, LEAVE NOW! (IRPG)
          • Do you have a viable Escape Route?
          • What is the decision point at which you will leave based on fire behavior and rate of
          spread?
          • Is there a Temporary Refuge Area (TRA) on site? If not, LEAVE NOW!
          – Preplanned area for immediate, temporary refuge
          — Use of fire shelter should not be necessary
          – Is there a viable Escape Route to the TRA or Safety Zone?
          • Is “Prep and Go” tactic an option?
          • Do you have communications with your supervisor and adjoining forces?
          • If safety issues cannot be mitigated, LEAVE NOW!

          It’s very graphically well-designed.

          Reply

            • Marti… THANK YOU for all those links above.

              Incredibly relevant stuff… ALL of it.

              And no… I hadn’t seen that ‘eyewitness account’ yet.
              It adds a LOT of detail that was NOT included in the
              (cough, cough) ‘official report’.

              Yes… it does appear there were ‘Engines’ on the scene even BEFORE these guys went “over the river ( Alder Creek ) and through the woods to grandma’s house”.

              Also… that ‘whishbone’ shaped road which ended up the one the guys in the pickup used to just drive to where these guys were dying, pick them up, and drive them out IS there in ‘Google Earth’..

              It’s just that this area where they were was SO heavy with trees and the structures they were choosing to try and defend were SO MUCH just ‘part of the fuel’ that it’s hard to see both the road, the goat pen, the garden and the steel building even with satellite photos.

              But that road IS there… embedded in the trees.

              You just have to look really, really close to see it.

              Reply

              • Yer welcome WTKTT!!

                When I wrote that part about the road, I hadn’t looked at the aerial/map in the Report. I was just trying to guess.

                I did later look, with the aid of the map, in various “historical” versions of the GoogleEarth image, and was able to pick it out. The whole area reminds me of roads on the Navajo Reservation, various roads taking various routes in and out and around the brush. Except this is all in and out and around and UNDER trees. Which were, at the time, OBVIOUSLY on fire.

                I looked at a bunch of YouTube helitack videos yesterday morning, wondering, “is this what helitack crews actually DO???????”

                There’s a photo of that crew in 2014, working with a hose on another fire. Obviously, that hose was probably connected to an engine. And they’re on a real road. So they do do that kind of stuff, apparently.

                I’m currently thinking they were walking in there behind the fire-front. That kinda sorta fits the whole “check structures after the fire front has passed through.” But it doesn’t fit any of the CalFire rules of “if there’s no safe zone etc etc etc GET OUT!!!!!!”

                And then, after they picked their way over to the steel building/goat pen area, the fire had looped around to the area below them and then changed direction, because of the slope, and burned uphill towards them.

                But six firefighters on foot wandering off on this whole “check structures after the fire front passes through” journey without any engine support “looking for more structures to defend” (with what???) still just seems a “fool’s errand” kind of thing.

                Reply

  51. **
    ** STATE REPRESENTATIVE KAREN FANN ACTUALLY THINKS
    ** THE DEPLOYMENT LOCATION IS A ‘GRAVE SITE’.

    I know this was discussed below… but in case anyone missed it… it absolutely needs to be pointed out AGAIN. This one statement from Karen Fann ( in one of her email responses to Gary Olson ) lies at the heart of all the consternation regarding ‘access’ to the deployment site.

    —————————————————————————————————
    From Karen Fann: Today ( October 1, 2015 ) at 6:55 AM
    To: gary olson

    …The memorial should be constructed so people cannot trample on the “grave” sites;
    —————————————————————————————————

    State Representative Karen Fann ( and prominent member of the Granite Mountain Memorial Site PUBLIC Advisory Board ) even took the time to put EMPHASIS QUOTE MARKS around the word “grave”.in her email.

    Anyone who actually believes that piece of ground 640 yards west of the Boulder Springs Ranch contains any “graves” seriously needs an INTERVENTION.

    I mean it. That’s just “bat-crap crazy talk”.

    Reply

    • Yes, as I told Bob down below, I certainly intend to address that issue and I hope others do as well in their own emails to Representative Fann. I do think however, that her quotation marks were met to say something like, “even thought we know the area does not technically contain graves, we (Amanda Marsh, the Pfinston’s etc.) consider the ground to be so sacred that it may as well hold graves because we view just as though if does and believe it should be treated with the same respect and at the same level.

      Which of course highlights just how screwy and disconnected from reality their thinking really is. I don’t really want to take on the added expense of another website just to bitch about how unhappy I am because it will interfere with my ATV gas money…but in the end http://www.KarenFannTheFascist.com may be my only option.

      Reply

      • Reply to Gary Olson post October 2, 2015 at 3:55 pm

        >> Gary Olson said…
        >>
        >> Yes, as I told Bob down below, I certainly intend to address that
        >> issue and I hope others do as well in their own emails to
        >> Representative Fann. I do think however, that her quotation marks
        >> were met to say something like, “even thought we know the area
        >> does not technically contain graves, we (Amanda Marsh, the
        >> Pfinston’s etc.) consider the ground to be so sacred that it may
        >> as well hold graves because we view just as though if does and
        >> believe it should be treated with the same>respect and at the
        >> same level.

        So what you are suggesting is that, when State Representative Karen Fann just reported back to you ( in writing ) that she ( and others ) consider that land just west of the Boulder Springs Ranch to contain (quote) graves (unquote)… that if she had been speaking it to you she would have also raised her arms and used her two ‘peace sign’ fingers to make those ‘quote marks’ in the AIR while she said the word “graves”.

        I believe the origin of that ( when both speaking and in writing it ) is called the good ‘ol ( WINK, WINK ) ( NOD, NOD ).

        In other words… it’s just shorthand for writing…

        —————————————————————————————————
        From Karen Fann: Today ( October 1, 2015 ) at 6:55 AM
        To: gary olson

        …The memorial should be constructed so people cannot trample
        on the ( WINK, WINK ) grave ( NOD, NOD ) sites;
        —————————————————————————————————

        I feel so much better now ( NOT ).

        I agree with your translation of this possible ( WINK, WINK ) graves ( NOD, NOD ) moment… but it could also be translated as the following…

        “Any SANE person knows there are no actual GRAVES out there… but for the sake of achieving the goal of locking down the deployment site for access only to people WE say are allowed to be there… it is serving our purposes to treat the place as if there WERE actual GRAVES out there.”

        Reply

  52. Reply to Marti Reed post on September 30, 2015 at 12:33 pm

    >> Marti said…
    >>
    >> Thinking further abut this, I’m thinking that, when that language was inserted:
    >>
    >> “4. THE YARNELL HILL MEMORIAL SITE BOARD SECURES THE NECESSARY
    >> PERMISSIONS FOR INDIVIDUALS TO VISIT THE MEMORIAL.”
    >>
    >> it was intended to mean the Board was authorized to secure the necessary
    >> permissions for them and people working with them to access the still-owned-
    >> by-ArizonaTrustLands area of the site, which required permitting to access, and
    >> probably also permission from private landholders, in order to survey and think
    >> out the design and the access issues. They talked about that in that meeting
    >> earlier this spring.

    Marti.. this is important… and I didn’t want you to think it got ‘lost in the weeds’.

    ** THE SHORT STORY

    You *MAY* be absolutely right.

    There *MAY* be that kind of ‘simple’ explanation why something like this was being ‘added’ to the original Bill only after it had been read TWICE on the House Floor.

    Only the person who ( all by herself ) proposed it as an ‘amendment’ and thought it rose to that level of importance to make it one of the only ‘required actions’ for the Board could say exactly WHY she was going to that much trouble to add this… and WHY that specific language was chosen.

    State Representative Karen Fann.

    ** THE LONG STORY

    Devil’s advocate time ( which, of course, will need a ‘reality check’ ).

    I don’t think that’s why this ‘language’ was inserted into that propose LAW.

    It’s TOO SIMPLE of an explanation.

    If we are talking about someone ( Fann alone? ) suddenly realizing that various ‘permissions’ were going to be needed from ( for a while ) ‘Arizona Land Department’ and then ( eventually ) “Arizona Parks Department’ for ‘individuals’ associated with the BOARD itself to ‘access the site’… then that does NOT rise to the level of requiring a full-blown frickin’ AMENDMENT and a new top-level ‘duties and responsibilities’ entry for the legislation itself.

    We are talking about just a ‘housekeeping’ task here.

    Of COURSE if ‘individuals’ working for the Board needed to get out there… they would need ‘permission’ from either Arizona Land or Arizona Parks.

    But those kinds of ‘permissions’ for ‘official purpose’ were already CODIFIED into the original Land Closure order itself. There would be NO NEED to start amending HB2624 for that (same) purpose.

    Arizona Land Department had already thought of that when they CLOSED the land and it was built into their order that there would be other ‘official reasons’ why SOME people might need to access the site. All those ‘some official people’ had to do was ASK.

    So that ‘task’ would have been so ‘mundane’ and ‘housekeeping’ level that it defies reason why someone would have thought to make that a top-level ‘responsibility’ of a proposed new Arizona PUBLIC Board.

    The fact that it was GOING to be an official ‘Arizona PUBLIC Board’ created by LAW means that individuals working with/for that Board would ‘automatically’ be rising to the level of ‘other officials’ that might need ‘permission’ to bypass the Arizona Land Department closure order.

    “4. THE YARNELL HILL MEMORIAL SITE BOARD SECURES THE NECESSARY
    PERMISSIONS FOR INDIVIDUALS TO VISIT THE MEMORIAL.”

    Notice that is also says ‘INDIVIDUALS’ and not ‘THE PUBLIC’.

    That ‘language’ is vague enough to accomplish the task of ( perhaps ) ‘locking down access to the memorial’ and only ‘securing permissions’ ( from Arizona State Parks or whoever owns the land ) for ‘select individuals’ ( say…’family members and firefighters’ ) to ‘visit the memorial.

    So regardless of what the ORIGINAL intent of that ‘insertion’ was… ( or regardless of what Representative Fann might even, today, SAY it was for )… it’s still obvious that what some ( all? ) members of this Board BELIEVE it means is that they DO have the right to decide what ‘access’ to the ‘State Park’ will look like.

    Karen Fann herself was the first one to put this ‘on the table’ at one of the first PUBLIC meetings of this PUBLIC Board.

    From the minutes of the 11/24/14 meeting of the Yarnell Hill Memorial Site Board…

    —————————————————————–
    Representative Fann stated that another thing that needs to be mentioned
    is who should be able to visit the memorial. Potentially we are dealing with
    hundreds if not thousands of people and it becomes a liability issue, not to
    mention the need for trails and bathrooms. We would then have to get into
    issues of access and ADA laws. Another thought is whether the site
    should be restricted to firefighters and family members to avoid these types
    of issues.

    One Board member ( Darrell Willis ) stated there will be no way to keep
    people out of the area. Regardless of how far they have to hike in to pay
    respect to the fallen… people will still go
    ——————————————————————

    So there is Karen Fann ( herself ) stating out loud and in PUBLIC…

    “another thing that needs to be mentioned is who should be able to visit the memorial”.

    Really?

    So WHERE does Karen Fann herself think the Board is even getting the ‘authoritay’ for that to be ( in her words ) something that MUST be discussed?

    Could it be from the amendment she, herself, made sure ‘creeped’ into the legislation?

    Namely…

    “4. THE YARNELL HILL MEMORIAL SITE BOARD SECURES THE NECESSARY
    PERMISSIONS FOR INDIVIDUALS TO VISIT THE MEMORIAL.”

    Reply

    • Thank you, WTKTT. Well said.

      I think you’re right.

      And I think the fact that I was thinking that way makes me wonder whether or not it was written in that vague and misleading manner mistakenly or intentionally. Ahem.

      Like I said, there’s a WHOLE lot of double-speak in all of this.

      Also, her use of “”graves”” in her email to Gary underscores this. Everybody and their little brother knows that those crosses are going to mark spots that are not graves.

      And, yes, we have memorials to those who died in auto crashes and such all over Albuquerque, also. In PUBLIC places. I can still walk right up to them and photograph them if I FEEL like it.

      Those families who were so outraged by the “cover-up” that was the SAIR seem to have absolutely no problem creating a cover-up of their own.

      I was so disgusted by all those sleezy comments written in the comments sections of just about every article in the Daily Courier about the families fighting for compensation and the lawsuits, that it never really dawned on me that some of them might actually have been true.

      I’m starting to side with them.

      Except for it’s still not about the money.

      It’s about the power to control the narrative. And also those 350 PUBLIC acres.

      And Karen Fann is also “wrong” about the taxpayer dollars. The fact that that $500k came out of the General Fund does not mean they are not taxpayer dollars. They’re just taxpayer dollars that are being put to a different use than they would have been otherwise.

      And the FACT that they are denying access to Gary, of all people, while allowing access to that Missoula Fire Sciences Laboratory group (including the leader who is critically interested in DEPLOYMENT SITES and how POORLY fire-fighters may be CHOOSING them), along with whoever else wanted to come with them, puts the whole LIE regarding access to “fire-fighters” right square flat out on the table.

      This whole thing is a carefully designed and narrated SCAM. And may have ALWAYS been, given the timelines of it.

      And, given how Arizona State Parks is BY LAW framed to do what it is supposed to do, possibly illegal.

      So, I’m also looking at Sue Black in this whole thing. Her ambition is obviously getting in the way of her knowing how her own frickin agency is, BY LAW, supposed to be managed.

      There I’ve said it.

      Signed, Marti L. Reed
      A Proud Member of the Pesky Public

      Reply

      • PS

        My brother, an Eagle Scout, got himself killed (and almost a few other people) in the Jemez Mountains just northwest of Tent Rocks.

        It was a HUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUGE very big deal.

        All over the news and the newspapers for weeks.

        His Memorial Service was standing room only in a church that holds a thousand people.

        The place where he landed, after falling 300 feet, on his head, is a “sacred spot” for my family. We never even thought about bothering to put up a Memorial, much less closing it off to the Public. I mean, like, REALLY???

        Maybe we should have. With a kiosk that narrated what happened, and could serve as a “Lessons Learned” spot to teach Boy and Girl Scouts, etc, why not to walk too far out on a sandstone ledge just because your Scoutmaster yells up at you to tell you to “hurry up and get down, we need to get ready to go!!!”

        My brother and his patrol decided to choose a “short cut” in order to “hurry up and get down.” It turned out to not be a shortcut, but a deadly mistake instead.

        But if we had decided to do Memorial, it would have been a wasted effort to close off that piece of land, where his shattered skull’s blood sunk into that “sacred” ground, to the PUBLIC.

        But then, my mom and dad and I were not desperately trying to control the narrative of what happened. And neither was the Scoutmaster, who — if this had happened in THIS day and age — would have been sued up the wazoo for it.

        Because we knew that my brother’s death was caused by my brother’s mistake, not the Scoutmaster’s, even though what the Scoutmaster had yelled up to him may have been a contributing factor. TRUTH.

        That’s why I”m talking about how the goal is not the dollars, and not even the land.

        It’s control of the narrative. And we’ve seen PLENTY of THAT.

        Reply

        • Oh, and PS, if one of the other younger Scouts in his Patrol, would have ALSO gotten killed, maybe WE would have been sued up the wazoo, also.

          I don’t think that would have happened THEN, but, from my experience as a Girl Scout Leader in the 1990’s, I’m sure it would have happened NOW.

          Reply

    • WTKTT said :That ‘language’ is vague enough to accomplish the task of ( perhaps ) ‘locking down access to the memorial’ and only ‘securing permissions’ ( from Arizona State Parks or whoever owns the land ) for ‘select individuals’ ( say…’family members and firefighters’ ) to ‘visit the memorial.”

      And I say, “That’s right and I do not intend to lose sight of the fact that “family members and firefighters” to these people mean “family members, firefighters, politicians, miscellaneous officials that have nothing to do whatsoever with the technical aspects of the fire or it’s aftermath, and all of the above GUESTS and anybody any of these people feel like giving carte blanche access to the site just as THE BOARD will be giving them.”

      This entire thing “STINKS TO HIGH HEAVEN” and it had better get fixed so I can visit the new Granite Mountain Hotshot Memorial State Park with whoever I want to, whenever I want to (between the hours of 0600 and 2200 hours which is normal operational hours for a park) because I am a United States Citizen and for no other reason or…or…or…I am going to be…unhappy. And build another nearly useless website so I can bitch about it.

      I have acquired more than my fair share of “hot buttons” at this point in my life, and one of them is public officials using the power given to them by We The People to expand the rights of those they like, while at the same time restricting the rights of those they don’t like.

      And FYI – I have learned recently that this IM thread or blog or what I call our little experiment in social media has power and influence FAR beyond what I thought it did. I know now there are people who are reading this blog and are being influenced by what is written here who I would NEVER had suspected care about whatever is said here.

      Guess what? We The People here on this blog have some real power and I think we should use it to guarantee me access to the new state park in Arizona. Which is a goal for this thread I never saw coming. Did you?

      We are EVOLVING. (Silence Of The Lambs)

      Reply

  53. Well…I have broken another vow. I am not going to get my response to Representative Fann done tonight after all…”this is a very complicated case, Maude. You know, a lotta ins, a lotta outs, a lotta what-have-yous. And, uh, a lotta strands to keep in my head, man. Lotta strands in old Duder’s head.” (The Big Lebowski, that is a special quote for our reader in the UK) and I want to get it right, or at least as good as I can make it.

    Plus, I have been working on translating the court recording tonight without any success, so it is going to be awhile before you see that on my new webpage Free Joy. But it will be there eventually. God Willing!

    Reply

  54. well, at first I wondered why Ben Palm’s would be inducted as fire chief for Yarnell but since then knowing that he is a great EMT I have changed my opinion. Yarnell does not really need firefighters. After all, more than 60% of the people in Yarnell are beyond 60 years of age. Then consider the very tiny lightning strike we have at least ten able bodied firefighters in the Yarnell Fire Department yet they were unable and unwilling to go that Friday or that Saturday to put out a small fire in the boulders that destroyed a lot of the town. Allowed it to turn into a wildfire. Yes, we are better off with just an EMT experienced fire department with little experience in firefighting and putting out small fires. I am not going to second guess their motives for not taking care of business. It would be nice to know the real reasons why they allowed this fire to become a major tragedy both to human lives and the destruction of almost 1/2 the town and a number of residents to Peeples Valley. From my point of view, it certainly seems that professional investigators including the FBI would want to know why so many young heroes lives were allowed to be destroyed.

    Reply

  55. musical intermission for those who cannot read or engage current IM topic or if you just need a break…

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3RVYRGggQww&feature=youtu.be

    this person really captured the FEEL of the fence and all who went there. such quality loyal dedication…thank you Ered. Since we cannot see the other fence…enjoy the video.

    I think the comment of people stepping where they died is lame being its fenced because I have perimeter cameras and sound recorders every where I am and all my areas I call SPACE to me and if they had spypoint mini live 4gv or any of this line like I do you can be anywhere to view area you are watching…I love my smart control video of another professional system that is tied right to law enforcement but had to do increase cameras because of certain ones in that area and the end result of how I have been addressed. I guarantee I am documenting and keeping the information safe way away from me because of what Charley Moseley (h tt p://www.rolltide.c o m/sports/c-xctrack/spec-rel/050114aab.html) told me and him (ht tp ://ww w.cblawyers.c o m/attorneys/james-belanger/) and EVEN my neighbor down the street retired YCSO sheriff told me. I also want to make Fann very aware installing proper fencing around the deployment site and signage and statutes and these cameras will stop such actions and if found in there they can be criminally charged to the fullest degree. Yet to not let a person go in the bowl to experience it…Zack Ashoor who was on the Arizona board for Respiratory and knew these men well and he said to look down on the bowl was nothing in comparison to actually be at the fence. Sorry Fann you cannot arrest him…another casualty after the fire. I finally found the person I had maps with on topic of my start research to how many died in aftermath of fire…I really really want to get my solo backpack pioneering hike in just me and the dirt but in Tucson right now…so soon I will work on it being Russ Reason’s symptoms parallel Sonny’s current situation. You are correct Gary. You did misjudge Fann. I have known a lot of ladies who know her that would of been appalled to read this past weeks’ comments by you because Fann helped homeowners…the homeless…and the loved ones of the men and my only unease is my rights being robbed as it was done…and her name was on original affidavit I was served and the last Yarnell meeting I saw her at she gave me a side way scorned look yet was cordial to Sonny. I do not mind if she has a view where she rather not know me but I just want my constitutional rights back…

    Reply

  56. Whoops, still too many hidden links and so I am going to repost again so it doesn’t disappear to the moderation black hole. Hopefully the other two will be deleted.

    Well…as Marti and so many of the rest of you know, I am not fit to mingle with polite society ever since my thin veneer of civility wore off after I retired, and some might tell you it was pretty thin (worn off) before I retired, but I am going to try and stay focused on the problem at hand.

    I have been a bad monkey…again. And I need to be spanked or maybe take a few trips up Mount MF until I am “one” again with my old friend…Pukie The Clown.

    But the fact remains that I owe yet another apology as a result of galloping around like a cowboy…shooting from the hip. So here goes.

    “I sincerely apologize to Arizona Congressional Representative Karen Fann, and I deeply regret my offensive remarks.”

    There…now that we have got that out of the way, we can get down to business. Because I also have some very good news for you, I actually heard back (I emailed her…3 times) from Representative Fann (R-District 1) and I now believe that she may actually be a dedicated representative of We The People who deeply cares about doing the right thing for her constituents.

    I am actually beginning to embrace my direct action role in lieu of my usual nearly useless blogging. In addition, I am considering becoming a political activist so I can be a rebel WITH a cause instead of just a garden variety pain-in-the-ass.

    I think it is possible that Representative Fann is responsible for a law that makes it possible for a very small special interest group of very greedy and very selfish people to expand their own rights while reducing and even eliminating our rights out of IGNORANCE and not MALICE.

    It appears that Representative Fann has been listening to and passing laws that favor this very small special interest group of very greedy and very selfish people who are either IGNORANT themselves or full of MALICE. Only time will tell.

    I am so excited that I want to share the emails that I sent to Representative Fann and those that she emailed back to me, because she really is the key to us having access to the Granite Mountain Hotshot Memorial State Park…she has written the law that currently restricts and might even block our access to said state park. And any law that Representative Fann is responsible for writing and getting passed, she can certainly…fix.

    To: Karen Fann

    Gary Olson says

    I am thinking about starting a new website when and if I find that the state is going to tightly control everyone who gets to visit the new Arizona State Park. I would like to detail everything that Karen Fann has done to take away the rights of millions of citizens, including most of the ones who live in her district who are paying for the Granite Mountain Hotshot Memorial State Park.

    I might call me new website; KarenFannTheFascist

    For additional info,

    http://www.investigativemedia.com/yarnell-hill-fire-chapter-xvi/#comment-309276

    Sep 30 at 6:20 PM
    To: Karen Fann

    Gary Olson says

    Is this what you did?

    Notice (in the timeline ) that State Representative Karen Fann ( Prescott ) waited until AFTER this proposed legislation was read for the ‘second’ time in the House and AFTER it had gone to ‘Committee’ before she started adding her proposed ‘amendments’ about having the Board decide who has ‘permission’ to visit the memorial and her attempts to get a clause in there giving some of the widows “first dibs” on buying the property. Karen Fann waited until February 14, 2014, before she started CHANGING the original Bill as read (twice) before the House.

    Thank you in advance for any information on this subject you send me. I want to learn more about how our government works…in real life.

    Gary

    Sep 30 at 6:27 PM
    To: Karen Fann

    Perhaps all those high-concept “cha-ching” minded folks over at the Prescott Chamber of Commerce ought to start getting letters and emails from out-of-state people like myself asking the question, “Why should I bother coming to Prescott to visit the GM Memorial Site when the Widows along with Representative Karen Fann have legislatively accomplished what’s needed to RESTRICT the general public from going to this public funded State Park? There’s certainly no need for me and my family to travel to Prescott when this Memorial Site is open to ONLY those whom the Yarnell Hill Memorial Board grants permission to — as if it were something akin to being their own private country club. Perhaps we’ll just visit the Grand Canyon instead.”

    What do you think?

    Karen Fann
    Today at 6:55 AM

    To: gary olson

    Gary, The purpose of my legislation two years ago was to preserve the site where our men perished and prevent development of a home, water tower, etc. at that site. The land was purchased from general fund dollars and the monies went to the State Land Trust Fund which pay for our schools. (one bucket to another so to speak) The board to decide what to do with the purchased land was appointed by the Speaker of the House and the President of the Senate.

    There are no tax monies involved with any improvements to the site and will only be accomplished through private donations. The architectural subcommittee of the board has come up with some amazing ideas for hiking path and the actual memorial site.

    My comments and concerns are: The memorial should be constructed so people cannot trample on the “grave” sites; I am concerned about potential trash, bathroom use etc. at the memorial site and possible medical emergencies which might occur with no way to easily assist. Lastly, Yavapai County has graciously agreed to provide maintenance so I would like to make sure it is as maintenance free as possible to avoid spending excessive tax dollars.

    Thank you for writing. Please let me know if I can answer any more questions you may have.

    Warmest, Karen

    Today at 12:14 PM
    To Karen Fann

    Hi Karen,

    Thank you for such a thoughtful and detailed response, I did not expect one. Apparently I misjudged you, I apologize. Unfortunately, you don’t know what you are talking about and you are concerned about the wrong issues because you have been listening to people who don’t know what they are talking about. I am going to write a detailed response to your email so you can be better informed in the future when you write laws that take away my most basic rights.

    Thank You, Gary

    Today at 3:01 PM
    To: gary olson

    Thanks Gary. I look forward to hearing from you. Karen

    And now, all I have left to do, is to write a detailed response to Representative Fann to explain to her why what she did is wrong, so she will no longer be IGNORANT regarding this issue. I will post my response here before I got to bed tonight.

    God Bless America!

    Reply

    • And I know that many of you are having a hard time containing yourselves at most, if not all of the excuses cited by Representative Fann as reasons why good citizens should not be allowed near the deployment site, but she has been listening to the wrong people.

      I hope I address most of them in the reply I am working on to her, but the good news is that she reads her emails and responds, so that’s a start.

      Reply

      • Gary Please explain to her that the Deployment site is not a Grave site.

        Refer to the Rattle Snake memorial or the South mountain Memorial where people walk thru the Crosses and reflect on what happened. Their are Trails that go right next to each Cross its a Marker of where they Died. From my hart it is not where they are now nor is it their resting place. It is a place of education. I am Proud the Rattle Snake Memorial has educated so many Fire Fighters and drown so many Citizens to reflect on what we as Fire Fighters have Sacrificed to learn and teach others.

        I got in pretty deep there so Ill Stop.

        Reply

        • Yes explaining to her that the deployment site does not have any “graves” there by any definition is just one of the things on my list. I am sure you will come up with more just as many other people will. The mine where my father died as a hero was never a grave either. Just none of the public areas where countless others have died are graves either. As somebody said earlier on this thread, they don’t set aside highways as memorials were no one can go just because an entire car load of kids die there. I am getting in too deep too so I will stop as well and go back to working on my response. I am going to EXPLAIN a lot of things to Representative Fann. Most of all, I want to go to the deployment site without being molested by the Board’s posse.

          Reply

      • Gary Olson post on October 1, 2015 at 8:23 pm

        >> Gary Olson said…
        >>
        >> And I know that many of you are having a hard time containing
        >> yourselves at most, if not all of the excuses cited by Representative
        >> Fann as reasons why good citizens should not be allowed near
        >> the deployment site, but she has been listening to the wrong people.

        State Representative Karen Fann actually STATED in an open PUBLIC meeting of this PUBLIC Yarnell Hill Memorial Board that there might be THREE big PLUSES for keeping the general ( taxpaying ) public away from the memorial would be threefold…

        1. Less concern about liability issues.
        2. Less concern about those pesky handicapped people expecting to be accommodated ( Sic; ADA – Americans With Disabilities Act )
        3. Less concern about bathrooms and things getting ‘messy out there’.

        See the post down below that is taken directly from the PUBLIC meeting of this PUBLIC Yarnell Hill Memorial Board that was held on November 24, 2014.

        That is when Karen Fann became the FIRST Board member to put the idea ‘on the table’ that they should limit access to the Memorial to just ‘family members’ and ‘firefighters’.

        Reply

      • It might also be useful to ask her when they’re going to start complying with Arizona State Open Records Laws by posting the minutes to all of their meetings, finally.

        Just sayin’.

        Thanks, Gary. I really appreciate this.

        Reply

        • According to the meeting minutes that HAVE been published so far… the answers to many of the questions being asked right now SHOULD already be known to the members of the Yarnell Memorial Site Board.

          Amanda Marsh was supposed to have finished her (unsupervised) little polling of the family members and reported the results back to the Board either before or during their last scheduled meeting back on September 18, 2015.

          Something tells me the only ‘sane’ compromise will be that yes… the PUBLIC will be allowed to get NEAR the actual deployment site… but the entire area of the site itself WILL be off-limits to the PUBLIC.

          In other words… no ‘access among the crosses’ as Arizona Forester Jeff Whitney called it during their July meeting.

          If it ends up any MORE restrictive than that… I hope they are prepared for the shit to hit the fan.

          Reply

          • Yep.

            And, to be perfectly honest, I’m totally fine with the deployment site being “fenced.”

            I mean, if you really want to see the Deployment Site, when it was actually still a Deployment Site, just look at the 250 or so photos that were taken during the SAIT “investigation” of it.

            God knows I did, the entire month of December, 2013, despite the fact that everybody else I knew was having fun for the holidays.

            Reply

          • On the other hand, if everything was that simple and squeaky clean,

            WHY are the minutes being Withheld from the PUBLIC????

            Reply

    • In true ‘politician style’… she didn’t even answer the question you asked.

      Karen Fann was the FIRST Board member to actually make the suggestion, early on, that access to the memorial site should be limited to just ‘family members’ and ‘firefighters’.

      From the PUBLIC minutes of the 11/24/14 meeting of the PUBLIC Yarnell Hill Memorial Site Board…

      —————————————————————–
      Representative Fann stated that another thing that needs to be mentioned
      is who should be able to visit the memorial. Potentially we are dealing with
      hundreds if not thousands of people and it becomes a liability issue, not to
      mention the need for trails and bathrooms. We would then have to get into
      issues of access and ADA laws. Another thought is whether the site
      should be restricted to firefighters and family members to avoid these types
      of issues.

      One Board member ( Darrell Willis ) stated there will be no way to keep
      people out of the area. Regardless of how far they have to hike in to pay
      respect to the fallen… people will still go
      ——————————————————————

      “To avoid these types of issues”

      The way those minutes are written… it is almost as if Karen Fann was suggesting that one of the big PROS of saying ‘to hell with the pesky public’… and limiting access to just ‘family members’ and ‘firefighters’ is that that would eliminate any of these annoying ‘issues’ about ‘liability’, or ‘handicap access’, or even people having to go to the bathroom.

      Really?

      So ‘family members’ and firefighters never stumble, fall, need wheechair access, or need use the bathroom?

      Really?

      Reply

  57. Whoops, too many hidden links, so I am going to repost.

    Well…as Marti and so many of the rest of you know, I am not fit to mingle with polite society ever since my thin veneer of civility wore off after I retired, and some might tell you it was pretty thin (worn off) before I retired, but I am going to try and stay focused on the problem at hand.

    I have been a bad monkey…again. And I need to be spanked or maybe take a few trips up Mount MF until I am “one” again with my old friend…Pukie The Clown.

    But the fact remains that I owe yet another apology as a result of galloping around like a cowboy…shooting from the hip. So here goes.

    “I sincerely apologize to Arizona Congressional Representative Karen Fann, and I deeply regret my offensive remarks.”

    There…now that we have got that out of the way, we can get down to business. Because I also have some very good news for you, I actually heard back (I emailed her…3 times) from Representative Fann (R-District 1) and I now believe that she may actually be a dedicated representative of We The People who deeply cares about doing the right thing for her constituents.

    I am actually beginning to embrace my direct action role in lieu of my usual nearly useless blogging. In addition, I am considering becoming a political activist so I can be a rebel WITH a cause instead of just a garden variety pain-in-the-ass.

    I think it is possible that Representative Fann is responsible for a law that makes it possible for a very small special interest group of very greedy and very selfish people to expand their own rights while reducing and even eliminating our rights out of IGNORANCE and not MALICE.

    It appears that Representative Fann has been listening to and passing laws that favor this very small special interest group of very greedy and very selfish people who are either IGNORANT themselves or full of MALICE. Only time will tell.

    I am so excited that I want to share the emails that I sent to Representative Fann and those that she emailed back to me, because she really is the key to us having access to the Granite Mountain Hotshot Memorial State Park…she has written the law that currently restricts and might even block our access to said state park. And any law that Representative Fann is responsible for writing and getting passed, she can certainly…fix.

    To: [email protected]

    Gary Olson says

    I am thinking about starting a new website when and if I find that the state is going to tightly control everyone who gets to visit the new Arizona State Park. I would like to detail everything that Karen Fann has done to take away the rights of millions of citizens, including most of the ones who live in her district who are paying for the Granite Mountain Hotshot Memorial State Park.

    I might call me new website; KarenFannTheFascist

    For additional info,

    http://www.investigativemedia.com/yarnell-hill-fire-chapter-xvi/#comment-309276

    Sep 30 at 6:20 PM
    To: [email protected]

    Gary Olson says

    Is this what you did?

    Notice (in the timeline ) that State Representative Karen Fann ( Prescott ) waited until AFTER this proposed legislation was read for the ‘second’ time in the House and AFTER it had gone to ‘Committee’ before she started adding her proposed ‘amendments’ about having the Board decide who has ‘permission’ to visit the memorial and her attempts to get a clause in there giving some of the widows “first dibs” on buying the property. Karen Fann waited until February 14, 2014, before she started CHANGING the original Bill as read (twice) before the House.

    Thank you in advance for any information on this subject you send me. I want to learn more about how our government works…in real life.

    Gary

    Sep 30 at 6:27 PM
    To: [email protected]

    Perhaps all those high-concept “cha-ching” minded folks over at the Prescott Chamber of Commerce ought to start getting letters and emails from out-of-state people like myself asking the question, “Why should I bother coming to Prescott to visit the GM Memorial Site when the Widows along with Representative Karen Fann have legislatively accomplished what’s needed to RESTRICT the general public from going to this public funded State Park? There’s certainly no need for me and my family to travel to Prescott when this Memorial Site is open to ONLY those whom the Yarnell Hill Memorial Board grants permission to — as if it were something akin to being their own private country club. Perhaps we’ll just visit the Grand Canyon instead.”

    What do you think?

    Karen Fann
    Today at 6:55 AM

    To: gary olson

    Gary, The purpose of my legislation two years ago was to preserve the site where our men perished and prevent development of a home, water tower, etc. at that site. The land was purchased from general fund dollars and the monies went to the State Land Trust Fund which pay for our schools. (one bucket to another so to speak) The board to decide what to do with the purchased land was appointed by the Speaker of the House and the President of the Senate.

    There are no tax monies involved with any improvements to the site and will only be accomplished through private donations. The architectural subcommittee of the board has come up with some amazing ideas for hiking path and the actual memorial site.

    My comments and concerns are: The memorial should be constructed so people cannot trample on the “grave” sites; I am concerned about potential trash, bathroom use etc. at the memorial site and possible medical emergencies which might occur with no way to easily assist. Lastly, Yavapai County has graciously agreed to provide maintenance so I would like to make sure it is as maintenance free as possible to avoid spending excessive tax dollars.

    Thank you for writing. Please let me know if I can answer any more questions you may have.

    Warmest, Karen

    Today at 12:14 PM
    To Karen Fann

    Hi Karen,

    Thank you for such a thoughtful and detailed response, I did not expect one. Apparently I misjudged you, I apologize. Unfortunately, you don’t know what you are talking about and you are concerned about the wrong issues because you have been listening to people who don’t know what they are talking about. I am going to write a detailed response to your email so you can be better informed in the future when you write laws that take away my most basic rights.

    Thank You, Gary

    Today at 3:01 PM
    To: gary olson

    Thanks Gary. I look forward to hearing from you. Karen

    And now, all I have left to do, is to write a detailed response to Representative Fann to explain to her why what she did is wrong, so she will no longer be IGNORANT regarding this issue. I will post my response here before I got to bed tonight.

    God Bless America!

    Reply

  58. Well…as Marti and so many of the rest of you know, I am not fit to mingle with polite society ever since my thin veneer of civility wore off after I retired, and some might tell you it was pretty thin (worn off) before I retired, but I am going to try and stay focused on the problem at hand.

    I have been a bad monkey…again. And I need to be spanked or maybe take a few trips up Mount MF until I am “one” again with my old friend…Pukie The Clown.

    But the fact remains that I owe yet another apology as a result of galloping around like a cowboy…shooting from the hip. So here goes.

    “I sincerely apologize to Arizona Congressional Representative Karen Fann, and I deeply regret my offensive remarks.”

    There…now that we have got that out of the way, we can get down to business. Because I also have some very good news for you, I actually heard back (I emailed her…3 times) from Representative Fann (R-District 1) and I now believe that she may actually be a dedicated representative of We The People who deeply cares about doing the right thing for her constituents.

    I am actually beginning to embrace my direct action role in lieu of my usual nearly useless blogging. In addition, I am considering becoming a political activist so I can be a rebel WITH a cause instead of just a garden variety pain-in-the-ass.

    I think it is possible that Representative Fann is responsible for a law that makes it possible for a very small special interest group of very greedy and very selfish people to expand their own rights while reducing and even eliminating our rights out of IGNORANCE and not MALICE.

    It appears that Representative Fann has been listening to and passing laws that favor this very small special interest group of very greedy and very selfish people who are either IGNORANT themselves or full of MALICE. Only time will tell.

    I am so excited that I want to share the emails that I sent to Representative Fann and those that she emailed back to me, because she really is the key to us having access to the Granite Mountain Hotshot Memorial State Park…she has written the law that currently restricts and might even block our access to said state park. And any law that Representative Fann is responsible for writing and getting passed, she can certainly…fix.

    To: [email protected]

    Gary Olson says

    I am thinking about starting a new website when and if I find that the state is going to tightly control everyone who gets to visit the new Arizona State Park. I would like to detail everything that Karen Fann has done to take away the rights of millions of citizens, including most of the ones who live in her district who are paying for the Granite Mountain Hotshot Memorial State Park.

    I might call me new website; KarenFannTheFascist

    For additional info,

    http://www.investigativemedia.com/yarnell-hill-fire-chapter-xvi/#comment-309276

    Sep 30 at 6:20 PM
    To: [email protected]

    Gary Olson says

    Is this what you did?

    Notice (in the timeline ) that State Representative Karen Fann ( Prescott ) waited until AFTER this proposed legislation was read for the ‘second’ time in the House and AFTER it had gone to ‘Committee’ before she started adding her proposed ‘amendments’ about having the Board decide who has ‘permission’ to visit the memorial and her attempts to get a clause in there giving some of the widows “first dibs” on buying the property. Karen Fann waited until February 14, 2014, before she started CHANGING the original Bill as read (twice) before the House.

    Thank you in advance for any information on this subject you send me. I want to learn more about how our government works…in real life.

    Gary

    Sep 30 at 6:27 PM
    To: [email protected]

    Perhaps all those high-concept “cha-ching” minded folks over at the Prescott Chamber of Commerce ought to start getting letters and emails from out-of-state people like myself asking the question, “Why should I bother coming to Prescott to visit the GM Memorial Site when the Widows along with Representative Karen Fann have legislatively accomplished what’s needed to RESTRICT the general public from going to this public funded State Park? There’s certainly no need for me and my family to travel to Prescott when this Memorial Site is open to ONLY those whom the Yarnell Hill Memorial Board grants permission to — as if it were something akin to being their own private country club. Perhaps we’ll just visit the Grand Canyon instead.”

    What do you think?

    Karen Fann
    Today at 6:55 AM

    To: gary olson

    Gary, The purpose of my legislation two years ago was to preserve the site where our men perished and prevent development of a home, water tower, etc. at that site. The land was purchased from general fund dollars and the monies went to the State Land Trust Fund which pay for our schools. (one bucket to another so to speak) The board to decide what to do with the purchased land was appointed by the Speaker of the House and the President of the Senate.

    There are no tax monies involved with any improvements to the site and will only be accomplished through private donations. The architectural subcommittee of the board has come up with some amazing ideas for hiking path and the actual memorial site.

    My comments and concerns are: The memorial should be constructed so people cannot trample on the “grave” sites; I am concerned about potential trash, bathroom use etc. at the memorial site and possible medical emergencies which might occur with no way to easily assist. Lastly, Yavapai County has graciously agreed to provide maintenance so I would like to make sure it is as maintenance free as possible to avoid spending excessive tax dollars.

    Thank you for writing. Please let me know if I can answer any more questions you may have.

    Warmest, Karen

    Today at 12:14 PM
    To Karen Fann

    Hi Karen,

    Thank you for such a thoughtful and detailed response, I did not expect one. Apparently I misjudged you, I apologize. Unfortunately, you don’t know what you are talking about and you are concerned about the wrong issues because you have been listening to people who don’t know what they are talking about. I am going to write a detailed response to your email so you can be better informed in the future when you write laws that take away my most basic rights.

    Thank You, Gary

    Today at 3:01 PM
    To: gary olson

    Thanks Gary. I look forward to hearing from you. Karen

    And now, all I have left to do, is to write a detailed response to Representative Fann to explain to her why what she did is wrong, so she will no longer be IGNORANT regarding this issue. I will post my response here before I got to bed tonight.

    God Bless America!

    Reply

  59. Well…it has been a really RED LETTER DAY for me in my little world of cyber blogging. I am getting to it late because I just spent 3 hours in a dentist chair getting a broken tooth fixed, but enough of my problems. This process is going to take several posts and a few hours, but I will get it done before I retire for the night to my bed chambers. Plus…I don’t have anything else better to do.

    First things first. I’m afraid that I have some bad news for you. WTKTT is right, the CD that I received from the court in Prescott that has the verbatim account of how Amanda Marsh lied to punish Joy for being…Joy, is just like everything else in the legal world. Recorded in the most arcane and proprietary format as possible to make it as hard on everybody but lawyers to listen to it as they possibly can. Thereby perpetuating their own nearly useless existence as parasites on their host society…us.

    I ask our best man (who happens to be a genius) to take a look at the problem and…he couldn’t find an easy fix for us. Which I desperately need when it comes to computer problems, I need an easy fix or I am screwed. Our best man for this problem is a loyal reader who does not post here, so most of you don’t know him. Now…I know that WTKTT is also working on this issue and if I know WTKTT, who I don’t real know, he will eventually resolve the problem and when he does, I will post it on my “Free Joy” web page.

    In the meantime, I will email you the recording if you want me to and here is the work-a-round process if you want to go there in the meantime.

    I must confess, the “trm” extension is one I’ve never seen before.
    It’s an esoteric format; apparently specifically for Court Reporters.

    It wouldn’t load into Audacity, which I have used for years to convert the audio channels of Youtube videos into mp3 files. So here is what you do:

    1. See this page.
    So…according to the link, there is apparently no known software to convert directly from trm into mp3 format.
    You have to use a program like FortheRecord (available from above link) to “Play” the trm file.
    Meaning it’s a magical software that converts the .trm digital signal waveform to “shake your speakers”.
    Once on the speakers, you have to use another software to “record” it, and get it into mp3 format.

    The guy that wrote the link above uses “Freecorder” to pick it off the speakers – just like I do with music and speeches off YouTube. Except I don’t use Freecorder; I use Audacity.
    Just like WTKTT; he also uses Audacity. He used it to analyze the voices in the YHF videos. It is a kick-ass software, totally free, no registration.
    And you really can physically pick it off the speakers; meaning audacity will use the on-board micro-phone on your computer (you do have a mike?) as the “input” to “record” the sound coming out of the speakers.
    But then it also records anything else going on in the room, like any and all other sound pressure bouncing around. This adds spurious noise.
    So instead the better way to do it is to just select the record “input” as the speaker channels.
    Meaning you will hear the play-back, and will digitally recording it, internally, off the speaker circuits, at the same time; the mike is off the whole time.
    Or, instead of using Audacity, you could just use the Freecorder software, and follow all the instructions in the link above. It looks pretty straightforward…
    If you get hung up, post back, and I’ll give it a whack.
    Oh my, dude. I’m so tired. How can you stay up so late? Like…are you doing speed, or what? (No, I am not riding the crystal pony…yet. It is easy to stay up half the night, if you sleep half the day.)

    Part 2

    The link at the “TechnoSolvers Blog” for getting the
    Fortherecord software didn’t work.
    You can get the product at the bottom of this page, under
    “Downloads”; the program labeled “FTR Player 5.7”.
    I downloaded the program, and I didn’t have to “register”; it was a freebie. The other programs listed on that page aren’t free.
    I’m running Windows 10; when it went to down-load, windows
    automatically updated a “visual c” module; meaning the
    Fortherecord software is written in the C programming language.
    So far so good; except when I went to load up the Court file you sent, it didn’t do anything; i.e. no playback.
    I have no idea why no playback. The date readout on the Fortherecord player for the file is Jan 8, 2015. The file duration is listed as 5 minutes, from 4:25:49 pm to 4:30:49 pm.
    Maybe the program just does not work in Windows 10.
    For example, I had a huge hassle getting my printer to work after I loaded windows 10; the old drivers didn’t work in 10.

    The file does not appear to have been compressed.
    Maybe the file was produced by some higher scale version of the software, and encrypted by Yavapai, for which you would need the decryption key and that software version?
    I have no idea, and am stymied.

    As Sam Steiger, former mayor of Prescott once remarked, after attempting to represent himself (be his own counselor) in a city lawsuit, Lawyers and Judges don’t like common citizens playing around in their sandbox, and conspire to fuck things up and slow things down. They “teach people a lesson”.

    AMEN! (from me)

    Reply

    • WTKTT – This confirms something I suspected last night after I did finally downloaded a program that does play it, teh one you suggested, but it wasn’t me the FUCKING recording wehave is only five minutes long and cuts off just as Dr. Ptnam is about to get sworn in, so we have an even bigger problem then we knew we did,

      Reply

  60. Otis said,

    (Gary – you’re sounding more like Walter Sobchak with every post)

    OMG! That is like…my most favorite movie of all time! I would much rather be like the Dude, but the sad fact is I am probably more of a Walter. I usually quote that movie…nonstop.

    The Big Lebowski; Are you employed, sir?

    The Dude: Employed?

    The Big Lebowski: You don’t go out looking for a job dressed like that? On a weekday?

    The Dude: Is this a… what day is this?

    The Big Lebowski: Well, I do work sir, so if you don’t mind…

    The Dude: I do mind, the Dude minds. This will not stand, ya know, this aggression will not stand, man.

    Fuck it Dude, let’s go bowling.

    Reply

    • He he! I knew it.
      The Stranger: Sometimes you eat the bear, and sometimes, well, he eats you.
      Yep I’m quoting it all the time too.

      I feel really powerless to help, with all the injustice going on in the world, the whole Yarnell “story” one seems like “just” another one.
      So the offer is here, if there’s anything I can do to help, even though I’m from outta town, and live across over the water, you guys let me know.

      Reply

      • Thank you for your participation Otis, with you, we can claim international blog status. And I actually used Walter’s quote…forgetting that I was quoting him, thereby missing the opportunity to attribute the movie.

        But after I responded to you, I got to thinking about it, and I remembered that I had heard, “bunch of FUCKING amateurs” (The Big Lebowski) before. GREAT CATCH!

        Reply

  62. **
    ** RUSS REASON – REST IN PEACE

    From the Skull Valley, Arizona, Facebook page…

    https://www.facebook.com/skullvalleyarizona

    ——————————————————————————————
    April Millsap – September 22 at 2:22pm

    Dear area members. I know that some of you know Russ Reason from the Yarnell & Peoples Valley area. He passed away this morning due to several medical complications that arose in the past few weeks starting with his heart. For those of you who do know of him and his wife Leah. Here are the funeral arrangements. FUNERAL ARRANGEMENTS FOR “RUSS” RUSSELL REASON: Friday September 25th 2015 Visitation to start at 12 noon Service to be held at 1 PM Following the service will be a meal. After the meal we will proceed to the Peoples Valley Cemetery for burial.
    —————————————————————————————–

    Reply

    • One more time ( out of respect for Russ )…

      The original “Russ Reason” video interview from the parking lot of the Ranch House Restaurant on June 30, 2013… just moments after the burnover out at the deployment site.

      And YES… that is, in fact, Brendan McDonough standing at the back of Marty Cole’s white extended cab pickup there in the background on the edge of the RHR parking lot.

      Brendan is being ‘comforted’ by that tall ( still unidentified ) Blue Ridge Hotshot.

      AZCENTRAL
      Article Title: Yarnell Hill Fire: Families watch homes burn
      Published: Mon Jul 1, 2013 7:50 AM
      By Laurie Merrill, Michelle Ye Hee Lee, Rebekah L. Sanders, Erin O’Connor,
      Lindsey Collom, and Scott Craven
      http://www.azcentral.com/news/arizona/free/20130630yarnell-hill-fire-families-homes-burn.html

      VIDEO: Interview with Russ Reason at the Ranch House Restaurant, June 30, 2013.

      From the article…
      —————————————————————————————-
      Families stopped across the highway from their neighborhood in Glen Ilah on their way to evacuating the Yarnell Hill Fire, watching flames engulf their homes.

      Fire crews drove through the streets urging people to evacuate, residents said.

      “The fire was starting up all around,” said George Hunter, on his way to Congress to look for his wife and daughter, who left before he did. Said Russ Reason, “The fire was nipping at our heels and we had to get out of there.”

      In the hours following those evacuations, state officials confirmed that 19 firefighters were killed battled the blaze that has leveled much of Yarnell, burning hundreds of structures.

      Reason and his wife have lived in their home for 28 years. After sending his wife and a friend away first, Reason tried to go back home to salvage personal items. The fire was so close that he barely saved his dog, Misty.

      “I’m sure my house is gone by now,” Reason said.
      —————————————————————————————-

      He had just lost his home of 28 years… but he still had the composure and… yes… the bravery to stop and do an interview which then ended up one of the most important videos filmed that day.

      Sometimes ‘courage’ and ‘bravery’ doesn’t wear Nomex.

      Rest in Peace… Russ Reason.

      Reply

  63. **
    ** ARIZONA STATE REPRESENTATIVE KAREN FANN ( PRESCOTT DISTRICT )
    ** AND THE “SMALL GROUP OF WIDOWS”

    For those who might have recently ‘joined’ this discussion or are just now reading the latest messages… I keep using the phrase “small group of widows” as the ones who are known to have had State Representative Karen Fann’s ‘ear’ and were ( obviously ) trying to influence the content of the proposed House Bill HB2624.

    Some might be wondering… “Where are you getting that from”?

    The ANSWER is… right from State Representative Karen Fann’s mouth.

    Karen’s Fann’s PUBLIC comments about being ‘approached by the widows’ and being asked to add ‘amendments’ that would favor THEIR interest(s) and THEIR agenda(s) was originally picked up the the ‘Associated Press’… so those comments appeared in any number of MSM articles. Here is a link to just ONE of them…

    NOTE: The TIMING on this ‘AP Press’ distribution was on the day that the Bill was first ‘approved’ by the Arizona House of Representative, on March 5, 2014. It then had to head to the Arizona Senate and pass muster there before being signed into LAW by then Arizona Governor Jan Brewer.

    WORLD NOW
    Article Title: Arizona House approves Yarnell Hill memorial site plan
    Posted: Wednesday, Mar 05, 2014 5:34 PM CST by Jennifer Jones
    http://raycomgroup.worldnow.com/story/24897692/house-approves-yarnell-hill-memorial-site-plan

    From the article…
    ————————————————————————————————
    PHOENIX (AP) –

    The Arizona House of Representatives has passed a bill setting aside $500,000 to create a memorial site honoring the 19 Granite Mountain Hotshots who died in the Yarnell Hill Fire last year.

    House Bill 2624 passed Wednesday on a 56-2 vote and now goes to the Senate.

    It was amended Monday to give the firefighters’ survivors the chance to buy the site themselves. Rep. Karen Fann of Prescott says the widows approached her about the proposal.

    The bill creates a committee to oversee the memorial and administer the fund and any donations for the purchase. The committee would include relatives of the firefighters, state representatives and state parks board officials.

    All but one of the 20 Hotshots on the Prescott-based crew perished in the fire on June 30.
    ————————————————————————————————

    The relevant quote from Karen Fann…

    “It was amended Monday to give the firefighters’ survivors the chance to buy the site themselves. Rep. Karen Fann of Prescott says the widows approached her about the proposal.”

    ANOTHER article around the same time had ANOTHER direct quote from Fann which also quotes Fann saying ( in no uncertain terms ) that she would “LOVE IT” if the “widows” got to possess ( and control ) the land.

    I kid you not.

    Direct quote from Arizona News Radio interview with Karen Fann….
    ———————————————————————————–
    Fann, noting that passing legislation is a prerequisite to the purchase of that land, says a group of Hotshot widows has also expressed interest in buying the site. Fann told them, she’d LOVE IT if they succeeded in doing that.
    ———————————————————————————–

    It was these ‘other’ articles appearing at the same time that then referred to these widows that had Karen Fann’s “ear” as just a ‘group’ or ‘small group’ of widows ( As in… not ALL of the GM widows… just SOME ).

    The article(s) appeared on WEDNESDAY, March 5, 2014… so the ‘Monday’ being referenced in the article above would have been MONDAY, March 3, 2014.

    That is the day the article says the Bill was ‘amended’ with this new ‘clause’ that would give the widows ‘first dibs’ ( over the citizens of Arizona ) to ‘buy the land’, if they wanted to.

    That MONDAY, March 3, 2014 date ( 2014-03-03 ) actually matches the following entry for that date in the permanent legislative ‘history’ for this House Bill 2624 ( HB2624 )…

    Date, Chamber, Action
    ———————————————————————————————–
    2014-03-10, Senate, Introduced in Senate and read first time
    2014-03-05, House, Transmit to Senate
    2014-03-05, House, House third reading PASSED voting: (56-2-2-0)
    2014-03-03, House, House Committee of the Whole action: Do Pass Amended
    2014-02-27, House, House majority caucus: Do pass
    ———————————————————————————————–

    March 3, 2014 is the day the Bill was ‘leaving’ the House Committee and headed for a vote on the House floor… and the recommendation coming of out Committee to the Members of the House was…

    “Do Pass (as) Amended”.

    Remember… the Bill was actually first introduced in the House ( and read for the first time on the House Floor ) almost a MONTH earlier… on February 11, 2015.

    The article doesn’t appear to be ‘correct’ when it reports that Representative Karen Fann only got around proposing her “widows get a shot at buying the land” amendment just 48 hours before it left the House for the Senate.

    The online record of Karen Fann’s proposed ‘amendments’ to the bill puts that first mention of a proposed “widows get a shot at buying the land” amendment at just 48 hours AFTER the Bill was first introduced.

    It was proposed in the SAME ‘amendment’ presented by Fann on February 14, 2014, that also had this first mention of ‘permissions’ as part of the same proposal…

    4. THE YARNELL HILL MEMORIAL SITE BOARD SECURES THE NECESSARY PERMISSIONS FOR INDIVIDUALS TO VISIT THE MEMORIAL.

    Just below that…there was this OTHER proposed ‘New requirement’ for the ‘Yarnell Hill Memorial Site Board’ that also wasn’t in the original amendment…

    2. DETERMINE WHETHER THE STATE PARKS BOARD OR A PRIVATE PARTY SHOULD PURCHASE THE LAND FOR THE MEMORIAL SITE.

    So it was Karen Fann who wanted to change this original (clear) DIRECTIVE in the original Bill…

    1. THE YARNELL HILL MEMORIAL SITE BOARD RECOMMENDS THAT THE STATE PARKS BOARD PURCHASE THE LAND FOR THE MEMORIAL SITE.

    To something that gave that ‘widows’ who had her ‘ear’ a ‘better shot’ at buying the land for themselves…

    2. DETERMINE WHETHER THE STATE PARKS BOARD OR A PRIVATE PARTY SHOULD PURCHASE THE LAND FOR THE MEMORIAL SITE.

    She ( Fann ) obviously couldn’t get any ‘language’ to pass muster that might have codified into LAW some nonsense like “If the widows decide they don’t want it… then the STATE can buy the land”… so the COMPROMISE was to just not make it a ‘done deal’ that ONLY the Arizona State Parks department should ‘buy the land’.

    She succeeded in “giving the widows a shot at it” and forced this to be one of the ‘action items’ that the Board would have to VOTE on once it was fully assembled.

    BOTH of Karen Fann’s proposed amendments ( which she submitted ALONE, with no other sponsors ), were eventually ‘accepted’ and ended up in the final HB 2624 that was signed into LAW on April 30, 2015.

    And… sure enough… the very first ‘order of business’ for the newly formed Board was to VOTE about whether or it might be better to let ‘private parties’ buy the land instead of the State.

    The VOTE ended up ‘unanimous’ for the ORIGINAL INTENT of the legislation, BEFORE Karen Fann got it ‘amended’ to ‘consider private parties’ ( like the widows ).

    The Board voted ( with no dissent, even though Amanda Marsh had a vote ) that it would be in the PUBLIC’S best interest for Arizona Parks Department to buy the land, and NOT some ‘private parties’.

    But regardless of THAT vote… the mysterious “BOARD SECURES THE NECESSARY PERMISSIONS FOR INDIVIDUALS TO VISIT THE MEMORIAL” blurb that Karen Fann also succeeded in adding to the Bill remains…

    …and as the July 31, 2015 minutes of this Board show… the Board also UNANIMOUSLY assigned a single widow and Board member ( Amanda Marsh ) as the one-and-only person to do the UNSUPERVISED ‘polling’ of ALL the ‘family members’ to see if they wanted the PUBLIC to be able to get anywhere near the deployment area.

    The RESULT of that UNSUPERVISED ‘Amanda Marsh’ polling mission are probably already known to the Board… but they haven’t published the minutes of their September 18, 2015 meeting yet.

    Whatever they have ‘decided’ here… it’s gonna be NEWS.

    The PUBLIC is paying for all of this… and I’m sure the PUBLIC is still ASSUMING they will have ACCESS to ALL parts of this new ‘State Park’.

    ** POSTSCRIPT

    Oddly enough… even though that language about one of the ‘tasks’ of the new Board being to first DECIDE if ‘private parties’ ( the widows ) should be allowed to buy the land, versus just assuming Arizona State Parks should buy it was NEVER in the original version of the Bill… and State Rep Karen Fann succeeded in ADDING that language to the Bill in response to requests from “the widows”…

    …they ( Arizona legislators ) actually FORGOT to take out the language that Karen Fann’s amendment seemed to be trying to replace.

    So the final HB2624 that was signed into LAW by (then) Governor Jan Brewer actually ended up with BOTH of the following CONTRADICTORY / CONFLICTING items in it…

    ** The ORIGINAL directive that said the only thing the Board should even consider is that
    ** Arizona State Parks BUY the land…

    1. THE YARNELL HILL MEMORIAL SITE BOARD RECOMMENDS THAT THE STATE PARKS BOARD PURCHASE THE LAND FOR THE MEMORIAL SITE.

    ** AND.. the ‘amended’ language/directive that State Representative Karen Fann succeeded
    ** in ADDING to the Bill at ( apparently ) the direct request of some small group of “widows”…

    2. DETERMINE WHETHER THE STATE PARKS BOARD OR A PRIVATE PARTY SHOULD PURCHASE THE LAND FOR THE MEMORIAL SITE.

    Whoops!

    BOTH of those ‘conflicting directives’ actually ended up in the final ‘Printed’ Bill that was then signed into LAW on April 30, 2015.

    Reply

  64. Perhaps all those high-concept “cha-ching” minded folks over at the Prescott Chamber of Commerce ought to start getting letters and emails from out-of-state people like myself asking the question, “Why should I bother coming to Prescott to visit the GM Memorial Site when the Widows along with Representative Karen Fann have legislatively accomplished what’s needed to RESTRICT the general public from going to this public funded State Park? There’s certainly no need for me and my family to travel to Prescott when this Memorial Site is open to ONLY those whom the Yarnell Hill Memorial Board grants permission to — as if it were something akin to being their own private country club. Perhaps we’ll just visit the Grand Canyon instead.”

    Reply

    • Reply to Gary Olson post on September 30, 2015 at 6:24 pm

      >> Gary Olson said…
      >>
      >> There’s certainly no need for me and my family to travel to Prescott when
      >> this Memorial Site is open to ONLY those whom the Yarnell Hill Memorial Board
      >> grants permission to — as if it were something akin to being their own private
      >> country club.

      Make no mistake… Arizona State Representative Karen Fann ( elected to represent ALL of the people of her district… and not just ‘friends’ and/or people who might have WORKED for her ) wasn’t just ‘going along’ with what the widows wanted her to do in order to just ‘get them off her back’.

      Representative Karen Fann is on record as PUBLICLY stating she would LOVE IT if the ‘widows’ WERE able to SUCCEED in buying the land for themselves and making it a ‘private country club’… or any other damn thing THEY wanted.

      ARIZONA NEWS RADIO
      Article Title: House Tentatively O.K.s Yarnell HIll Fire Memorial
      Posted on 3/3/2014 2:56:00 PM.
      http://arizonanewsradio.com/default.asp?pid=611866&tblog=15087

      From the article…
      ————————————————————————-
      The Arizona House of Representatives has given tentative approval to a bill securing the land where 19 Arizona firefighters died in the Yarnell Hill Fire. Representative Karen Fann’s bill authorizes the state to buy the site where the Granite Mountain Hotshots died battling last June’s rampant wildfire.

      A permanent memorial is planned for that spot with a price tag of $500,000 dollars Fann, noting that passing legislation is a prerequisite to the purchase of that land, says a group of Hotshot widows has also expressed interest in buying the site.

      Fann told them, she’d LOVE IT if they SUCCEEDED in doing that.

      Fann also didn’t mind a suggestion that something also be established at Wesley Bolin Plaza in Downtown Phoenix to honor the victims’ memory.

      The House next formally votes on the measure.
      ————————————————————————-

      Given her PUBLIC statements of expressed BIAS as to the OUTCOME of the process even
      WHILE the legislation was being considered… there is NO WAY that Representative Karen
      Fann should have then been appointed to actually SERVE on this ‘Yarnell Hill Memorial Site’ Board.

      TWO WORDS: Conflict of Interest.

      The BOARD was created to do what’s in the best interests of ALL the people of Arizona,
      who are the ones forking out the $500,000 to ‘do the deed’.

      Karen Fann had already made PUBLIC statements that she was more interested in the
      ‘widows’ getting what THEY wanted than she was interested in doing what’s right for
      the people who elected her.

      Bzzzt. That should have automatically ‘disqualified’ her from serving on this PUBLIC Board.

      But it didn’t.

      There she is… VOTING on outcomes.

      Reply

  65. Geez Gary, just quit whining already!!

    Apparently you just don’t have the right connections!!

    Fire Scientists Visit Yarnell Hill

    “On June 22, eight days short of the second anniversary of the 2013 Yarnell Hill Fire fatalities, a team of five fire scientists from the Missoula Fire Sciences Laboratory visited the site and the communities of Yarnell and Prescott. Two of the local principals responsible for conducting the recovery and working with families and the community following the burnover served as hosts and guided the tour. It was the longest day of the year and forecast to be a hot one. FFS Team Leader Bret Butler, the principal investigator responsible for development of improved safety zone and escape route guidelines for wildland fire, describes his thoughts and the subsequent events leading to this emotional field visit.”

    http://www.firelab.org/fire-scientists-visit-yarnell-hill

    Reply

    • No…I guess not? But I still didn’t see where the “horses” came from?

      I sent emails to Karen Fann at both her re-election campaign and at the Arizona State Legislature but I haven’t heard back from her yet.

      Reply

          • Whoops, too many links in first reply

            I mostly was trying to alert her that I HOPE she has a PROBLEM brewing on this blog that I hope gets worse if she and her cabal of Widows keeps it up. So…I said.

            gary olson

            Today at 2:33 PM

            [email protected]

            Gary Olson says

            September 30, 2015 at 2:24 pm

            I am thinking about starting a new website when and if I find that the state is going to tightly control everyone who gets to visit the new Arizona State Park. I would like to detail everything that Karen Fann has done to take away the rights of millions of citizens, including most of the ones who live in her district who are paying for the Granite Mountain Hotshot Memorial State Park.

            I might call me new website; http://www.KarenFannTheFascist.com

            For additional info, And I sent a link to my “background where I am at comment”

            Reply

        • I mostly was trying to alert her that I HOPE she has a PROBLEM brewing on this blog that I hope gets worse if she and her cabal of Widows keeps it up. So…I said.

          gary olson

          Today at 2:33 PM

          [email protected]

          Gary Olson says

          September 30, 2015 at 2:24 pm

          I am thinking about starting a new website when and if I find that the state is going to tightly control everyone who gets to visit the new Arizona State Park. I would like to detail everything that Karen Fann has done to take away the rights of millions of citizens, including most of the ones who live in her district who are paying for the Granite Mountain Hotshot Memorial State Park.

          I might call me new website; http://www.KarenFannTheFascist.com

          For additional info,

          http://www.investigativemedia.com/yarnell-hill-fire-chapter-xvi/#comment-309276

          Reply

  66. I am thinking about starting a new website when and if I find that the state is going to tightly control everyone who gets to visit the new Arizona State Park. I would like to detail everything that Karen Fann has done to take away the rights of millions of citizens, including most of the ones who live in her district who are paying for the Granite Mountain Hotshot Memorial State Park.

    I might call me new website; http://www.KarenFannTheFascist.com

    Reply

          • Right on, plus she is the most powerful and she is using her power and elected office to reward her friends and punish others, which is classic political corruption.

            So I am going to focus on her and build her a website that will…bother her…if she succeeds and restricts MY rights to visit any Arizona Park whenever the mood strikes me.

            Reply

  67. WTKTT said that Marti said

    “And, one of my first thoughts after doing a little research was “hmmmmm horses?” also.”

    Where the hell did that come from. Amanda Marsh’s thing is HORSES?

    Reply

      • “Karen and husband Jim McKown also owned and operated the FANN-M Ranch for nearly a decade. The FANN-M Ranch, an equine facility, boarded horses and produced equine competitions. Karen and Jim also and worked closely with area 4-H Clubs and other nonprofits to organize and sponsor community fundraisers at the Ranch.”

        http://electkarenfann.com/index.php/biography

        That IS in the past tense. But still. Just sayin’.

        Reply

      • Thank you Marti. That is why I asked of course. I think Amanda Marsh works for Karen Fann in some capacity taking care of her horses

        So where does it talk about horses? Are they making laws so Amanda Marsh and Karen Fann don’t have to hike to the site, but so they can ride horses?

        Reply

        • Apparently Fann sold the ranch in 2006.

          I’m not sure exactly when Amanda started being a farrier, but i think it was somewhere around that time and I think she was living in Chino Valley.

          I’m just looking for some kind of connection. You know, friends, as in you scratch my back and i’ll scratch yours??

          I could be totally off! I just think it was more than a coincidence that WTKTT and I had the same lightbulb moment at the same time.

          Amanda was shoeing horses big time and Karen was owning horses big time. Around about the same time and around about the same place.

          Reply

          • Oh…OK, here is my answer, didn’t read far enough. Well…the word on the street (to use TV lingo) is that Amanda Marsh did work or does work for Karen Fann…so my point is , you may be right.

            But I am continuing to dig by working all of my snitches on the mean streets of Prescott.

            Reply

            • I just hope my “snitches don’t end up in ditches”, I mean…I did watch “Chinatown” once upon a time. I know how ugly big city politics can get.

              Reply

  68. Reply to Gary Olson post on September 29, 2015 at 8:12 pm

    >> Gary Olson said…
    >>
    >> “I think they really want to, but I think the IM is not the only place people are
    >> or will be getting fired up. I think (I hope) in the end they are defeated, but
    >> they are going to fight for it. Maybe when I do go, I will go down and wait to
    >> be arrested for being there, won’t that be an experience? It will make a
    >> great story for the book that I will never write on the YHF.”

    Hopefully everyone involved in this process will all bump their heads on something and ‘come to their senses’ ( sooner rather than later ) about this.

    It is NOT A CEMETERY.
    It is NOT where their REMAINS are.

    It is simply the place where they died.

    I live in a State where it is permissible for family members of those who have died in car crashes to place these same ‘little white crosses’ planned for the deployment site at the exact spot on the side of the road(s) where their family members died.

    At this point… they are ( literally ) all over the fucking place.

    When the County Road Workers mow the right-of-way… they are required to carefully remove these crosses while they mow… and then put them BACK.

    There is never any suggestion whatsoever that anyone needs any ‘permission’ to walk right up to these crosses to read what’s on them… or read some of the ‘notes’ that are often pinned to the crosses.

    That’s because it’s not where they are BURIED.
    It’s just the place where a horrible accident took place.

    ** DECISION ALREADY MADE?

    I believe the RESULTS of this little ‘Amanda Marsh’ UNSUPERVISED ‘poll of the family members’ with regards to whether they want the the public to ever get near the actual deployment site are ALREADY IN.

    In the minutes of the July 31, 2015 meeting… it said this…

    —————————————————————————————————–
    Chairman ( Sue ) Black ( Director of Arizona State Parks ) opened up general
    discussion among the Board members.

    – Board members discussed multi agency partnerships, and that the family’s needs and wants for the memorial site were continuous monitored and met.

    – Amanda Marsh stated that she wanted to make sure the families were ok with people having access down to the fatality site and wanted the families to have a vote. Amanda will contact families in two-weeks. If there is a split among the family members, the Board would vote.

    Motion: Jeff Whitney ( Arizona State Forester ) moved that the Yarnell Board approve Amanda Marsh to get input from the families regarding suggested design of the fatality site, ACCESS to the fatality site, and ACCESS among the crosses. Senator Pierce seconded the motion.
    Unanimous APPROVAL.
    —————————————————————————————————-

    So within TWO WEEKS ( following the July 31, 2015 meeting ), Amanda Marsh was supposed to have completed this UNSUPERVISED ‘polling’ of the family members and made some kind of ( written? ) report back to the Board.

    The NEXT meeting of this ‘Yarnell Hill Memorial Site Board’ has already taken place.

    It happened just recently, on September 18, 2015.

    So it stands to reason that they ‘discussed’ the RESULTS of Amanda Marsh’s little UNSUPERVISED ‘polling’ expedition at this most recent meeting… and if there was then this ‘split’ amongst the family members about whether the public should ever be able to get near the deployment site… then the ‘Board’ itself was supposed to VOTE on it.

    So all of that has very likely ALREADY happened.

    But since this ‘Board’ has consistently violated ‘Arizona Open Meeting’ laws regarding posting ‘minutes’ from meetings within 72 hours… there are still NO ‘minutes’ posted from this most recent meeting… and since the local media no longer gives a shit about attending these meetings… there is no media article to say what might have been decided on September 18.

    So (apparently) this ‘Yarnell Hill Memorial Board’ already knows what the ‘wishes of the families’ are and/or what the PUBLIC ACCESS for this State Park is going to look like.

    It’s just us poor slobs ( the public ) who are ‘footing the bill” that haven’t been INFORMED yet.

    Reply

    • The other thing that I’m seeing there is how, exactly, do they define/measure a split among the family members?

      Does that mean if a little over half the family members want the public to have access, as is the NORM for both Arizona State Parks AND Wildland FireFighter fatality sites, and a little under half the family members don’t (and yes I agree with all you have written about this WTKTT), then when it gets back to the Board, the Board determines that that is a signal to vote to close access, as is obviously their preference??

      Reply

      • Reply to Marti Reed post on September 30, 2015 at 3:26 pm

        >> Marti said…
        >>
        >> The other thing that I’m seeing there is how, exactly, do they
        >> define/measure a split among the family members?

        Probably any damn way they choose.

        There are actually TWO phases here ( as far as we know ).

        Phase ONE involves the actual ‘accuracy’ of the ‘report’ that Amanda Marsh delivers back to the Board. I guess Marsh could just come back and say…

        “I talked to the families. They are ‘split’ about it”

        …and I’ll bet not one other person on that Board would say “Prove it”.

        They would just accept whatever she said and not even ask to see a LIST of who was contacted, when, and what they actually said, even though this little ‘polling’ expedition she was assigned is now going to affect the PUBLIC’s right to access a State Park that the PUBLIC, itself, has already paid for.

        Phase TWO of this ‘decision making process’ is ( as you said above ) then up to the interpretation of the ‘results’ by the Board itself.

        So yea… even if Amanda Marsh actually did an full and complete job of talking to ALL the ‘family members’ and is accurately reporting what they ALL had to say… the ‘Board’ could just say…

        “Well… that looks like they are ‘split’. Let’s just close more than half of this PUBLIC park to PUBLIC ACCESS just to be sure we don’t make a family person mad”.

        I don’t see any ‘oversight’ going on with regards to this Arizona P{UBLIC BOARD and the decisions they are making. They are pretty much just doing whatever they want… and will most likely continue doing that.

        Reply

  69. **
    ** STATE REPRESENTATIVE KAREN FANN ( PRESCOTT ) WAITED UNTIL AFTER
    ** THE SECOND READING OF ORIGINAL BILL BEFORE SHE STARTED ADDING
    ** AMENDMENTS ABOUT ‘SETTING PERMISSIONS FOR WHO CAN VISIT THE SITE’.

    Reply to Marti Reed on September 30, 2015 at 11:40 am

    >> Marti said…
    >>
    >> Thanks, WTKTT. I was a little foggy on the exact timeline of all of this.
    >> None of this was even on my radar during February thru April of last year.
    >>
    >> And, one of my first thoughts after doing a little research was “hmmmmm horses?” also.
    >>
    >> There’s a WHOLE bunch of double-speak going on here.

    The ‘Complete Legislative Action’ history for this Bill that established this Arizona State sponsored “Yarnell Hill Memorial Site” Board is here.

    It shows exactly how/when it ‘traveled’ through both the House and the Senate and then on to the Governor’s desk.

    There are also links to all the ‘versions’ of it including the ORIGINAL and then all the incremental ‘amendments’ that were being ‘added’ by State Representative Karen Fann ( Prescott ).

    https://legiscan.com/AZ/bill/HB2624/2014

    Legislative History of HB2624

    First ‘reading’ in the House: February 11, 2014.
    Signed into LAW by Governor: April 30, 2014

    S = Senate
    H = House of Representatives
    Cmte. = Committee
    ————————————————————
    Date, Chamber, Action
    ————————————————————
    2014-04-30,, Chapter 273 E
    2014-04-30,, Governor Signed
    2014-04-24,, Transmitted to Governor
    2014-04-23, S, Transmit to House
    2014-04-23, S, Senate third reading PASSED voting: (24-1-5-0)
    2014-04-16, S, Senate Cmte., Whole action: Do Pass Amended
    2014-04-14, S, Senate majority caucus: Do pass
    2014-04-14, S, Senate minority caucus: Do pass
    2014-04-09, S, Senate RULES Cmte. action: Proper For Consideration
    2014-03-10, S, Referred to Senate RULES Committee
    2014-03-17, S, Senate GE Cmte. action: Do Pass, voting: (6-0-1-0)
    2014-03-10, S, Referred to Senate GE Committee
    2014-03-11, S, Senate APPROP Cmte. action: Do Pass, voting: (7-0-2-0)
    2014-03-11, S, Referred to Senate APPROP Committee
    2014-03-11, S, Senate read second time
    2014-03-10, S, Assigned to Senate RULES Committee
    2014-03-10, S, Assigned to Senate GE Committee
    2014-03-10, S, Assigned to Senate APPROP Committee
    2014-03-10, S, Introduced in Senate and read first time
    2014-03-05 H, Transmit to Senate
    2014-03-05 H, House third reading PASSED voting: (56-2-2-0)
    2014-03-03 H, House Cmte. of the Whole action: Do Pass Amended
    2014-02-27, H, House majority caucus: Do pass
    2014-02-27, H, House minority caucus: Do pass
    2014-02-26, H, House RULES Cmte constitutional and proper form.
    2014-02-11, H, Referred to House RULES Committee
    2014-02-19, H, House APPROP Committee action: Do Pass
    2014-02-11, H, Referred to House APPROP Committee
    2014-02-17, H, House EENR Cmte, action: Do Pass Amended
    2014-02-12, H, Referred to House EENR Committee
    2014-02-12, H, House read second time
    2014-02-11, H, Assigned to House RULES Committee
    2014-02-11 H, Assigned to House APPROP Committee
    2014-02-11, H, Assigned to House EENR Committee
    2014-02-11, H, Introduced in House and read first time
    ————————————————————

    Notice ( in the timeline ) that State Representative Karen Fann ( Presoctt ) waited until AFTER this proposed legislation was read for the ‘second’ time in the House and AFTER it had gone to ‘Committee’ before she started adding her proposed ‘amendments’ about having the Board decide who has ‘permission’ to visit the memorial and her attempts to get a clause in there giving some of the widows “first dibs” on buying the property.

    Karen Fann waited until February 14, 2014, before she started CHANGING the original Bill as read ( twice ) before the House.

    Reply

  70. I would like to sum up for you exactly where I am at, at least as far as Chief Ben Palm of the Yarnell Hill Fire Department, the Arizona State Parks and the Granite Mountain Hotshot Memorial State Park Board are concerned.

    I began with the U.S. Forest Service as a wildland firefighter in 1974 at age 19 on the Prescott National Forest. Prescott, Arizona is my home town.

    I became a hotshot with the Coconino National Forest on the Happy Jack Hotshots in 1975 at age 20.

    From 1975 through 1977, I worked on the Happy Jack Hotshots in a series of positions which included, the second to the last shovel on Squad 2, the Sawyer on Squad 2, the Lead Pulaski (first crewman in a crew line) on Squad 1, the Squad Boss for Squad 2, and finally the Squad Boss for Squad 1 (which served as the Assistant Crew Boss).

    At the beginning of the fire season in 1978, I was promoted to be the Happy Jack Hotshot Crew Boss. I was 23 years old at the time, the youngest hotshot crew boss in the nation. In fact, I think I was the youngest hotshot crew boss…ever.

    I served in that capacity until the end of 1980 at which time the crew slot was transferred to the Santa Fe National Forest. In January of 1981, I was offered the job of moving to Santa Fe, New Mexico, and founding the Santa Fe Hotshots. I worked in that capacity through the 1984 fire season.

    In 1982, I was asked to serve in a co-lateral position as the District Assistant Fire Management Officer when our district was combined with another district. In that position, I supervised all fire personnel on the entire new much larger district, including Fire Prevention Technicians, Fire Look Out Tower personnel and Engine Foremen in addition to maintaining my Santa Fe IHC Superintendent (Crew Boss) position.

    In the latter part of 1984, I was promoted to the position of Santa Fe National Forest, Forest Dispatcher and I held a co-lateral job as the Coordinator of the Interagency North Central Zone New Mexico Fire Operations Center. I was in this job until the end of 1988, when I went to work for the BLM.

    I retired in 2006 with 30 years (30-12 month years) from the Federal Public Safety Retirement system, which includes all federal law enforcement and fire fighters as a Supervisory Criminal Investigator (Sr. Special Agent) with the BLM Washington Office of Law Enforcement & Security. Twenty years in that system earns you the option to retire at any age, and collect 50 percent of you highest 3 years of pay when you turn 50.

    Over the past two years I have dedicated hundreds of hours to ascertaining why the Granite Mountain Interagency Hotshot Crew died on the Yarnell Hill Fire. I willingly volunteered this time which took away from my enjoying a full, rich and happy retirement that I share with my dear wife of 40 years, who still works as a registered nurse helping people with severe brain injuries. And bless her heart for the salary she earns, because it contributes greatly to my full, rich and happy retirement. I am currently doing research and working on a book that I will never finish about the Yarnell Hill Fire.

    Yesterday, on Monday, September 28, in the A.M., I gave a Readers Digest version of my back ground to Arizona State Parks Public Information Officer Ken Sliwa when I requested permission to go to the area that has now been designated as the Granite Mountain Hotshot Memorial State Park to conduct research for my book and to photograph the area.

    Mr. Sliwa had already informed me that fire professionals were being allowed to go into the area under the guidance of Prescott Fire Department personnel and that he would pass my request “up the chain” to the Granite Mountain Hotshot Memorial State Park Board.

    During this conversation, I informed Mr. Sliwa that I did not believe the Closure Order displayed on the Yarnell Hill Memorial Site Board web site was any longer valid, since it was signed by the Arizona State Land Commissioner and not someone from the Arizona State Parks.

    Today, on Tuesday, September 29,2015, I was informed in an email from Yarnell Fire Department Chief Ben Palm and a member of the Granite Mountain Hotshot Memorial State Park Board that my request to go into the area in question had been denied.

    What a great country we live in…except for the Yavapai County, Arizona…part. God Bless America!

    Reply

    • Oh…and one more thing.

      If I don’t deserve to go to the deployment site to pay my respects, than who does?

      EVERYBODY does…that’s who!

      Reply

      • Looks like any one on here who has made comments is going to be denied.
        Retired Fire Fighters or not.
        As you all know I upset one of the Mothers Earlier this year by stating Marsh made the decisions and carried the responsibility of the Deaths.
        She is one of the Board members.
        Yes John needs to go public on this atrocity. I may have to join Gary on a hike to the site as a protest to the closure of public lands. It is a public memorial site not a private Cemetery.
        How dose a City Fire Chief have a right to control State Park Land? Even a County Commissioner dose not have that right.
        What is going on here? Once the Land was purchased and the State Park took it over to develop it became public land which it already was a State Land.
        The Deployment site is less than a Quarter Acer the rest should be open, the fence around the deployment site protects it.

        JOHN—-I wonder if they would allow you and a couple of FS retired investigators on the Site. Like Gary, me and RTS or others who have been on here?
        I see a good story brewing here. This is unprecedented as a Wild Land Fire Fighter Memorial Site Goes, all others are open access to the public and Fire Fighters. with no restrictions.

        Reply

        • I agree there is a good (very bad) story here about government overreach by Karen Fann and a plan to restrict the right of many to benefit a few. I really hope John and many other get on this or the public is going to get screwed.

          Reply

    • Even by THEIR rules this doesn’t make sense.

      Apparently even being a wildland fire-fighter (retired) doesn’t get you into their precious designation of “Acceptable.”

      Apparently it’s all about Their™ judgement regarding “Acceptable Thinking.”

      Apparently, being a Non-Acceptably-Thinking Fire-Fighter is now an additional restriction on the PRIVILEGE of visiting the 350 acres Arizona State Parks was given the funds to buy (by the Arizona Legislature) in order to create a PUBLICLY- owned and paid-for and maintained Arizona State Park.

      I agree with your saying downstream that this is a total scam.

      Reply

    • I think Bob should put in a request, also. And Sitta. And RTS. And Rocksteady. And every other wildland firefighter that has posted on here. Call it an experiment.

      Reply

  71. **
    ** STATE REPRESENTATIVE KAREN FANN ( PRESCOTT ) IS THE ONE
    ** WHO ‘AMENDED’ THE ARIZONA LEGISLATION GIVING THE YARNELL
    ** HILL MEMORIAL BOARD THE AUTHORITY TO DECIDE WHO GETS
    ** TO VISIT THE MEMORIAL.

    >> On September 29, 2015 at 8:01 pm, Gary Olson said…
    >>
    >> “No, neither one (not the State Parks Dept., or the Yarnell Hill Fire Dept.),
    >> up the chain of the Granite Mountain Hotshot Memorial State Park BOARD!
    >> They are making the decision who gets to visit the park!

    And ( it appears ) State Representative Karen Fann ( at the request of this small group of widows? ) made SURE they had the ‘authoritay’ to do just that.

    The original BILL that was submitted to the Arizona State Legislature that would allocate PUBLIC money for a ‘Grante Mountain Hotshots Memorial’ did NOT have any ‘language’ in it about establishing special ‘permissions’ to visit such a Memorial.

    The ORIGINAL Bill was introduced onto the floor of the Arizona House of Representatives for consideration on February 11, 2014.

    It was ‘introduced’ by a host of legislators… including State Representative Karen Fann ( whose district includes Prescott )… but it was not Karen Fann ALONE introducing this proposed ‘Bill’.

    A COPY of that original Bill ( as introduced ) is here…

    https://legiscan.com/AZ/text/HB2624/id/953722

    It only established FOUR ‘responsibilities’ for this PUBLIC Board…

    ———————————————————————————————-
    C. The Yarnell Hill memorial site board shall:
    1. Establish a memorial dedicated to the members of the granite Mountain hotshot crew who lost their lives fighting the Yarnell Hill fire.
    2. Plan for the maintenance and preservation of the memorial.
    3. Solicit private monetary donations or public monies for deposit in the Yarnell Hill memorial fund established by section
    4. Submit a Report on the progress of the memorial to the governor, the president of the senate and the speaker of the house of representatives on or before December 31, 2015 and provide a copy of this report to the secretary of state.
    ———————————————————————————————–

    Notice that there is NOTHING in that ORIGINAL proposed legislation about this ‘Board’ establishing any kind of ‘permissions’ for who may or may not be allowed to access the ‘Memorial’ site.

    ** 48 HOURS LATER

    48 Hours after the ‘original’ Bill was introduced… State Representative Karen Fann ( ALONE, this time ) proposed the first ‘amendments’ for the legislation.

    On February 14, 2015, State Representative Karen Fann ( who represents Prescott and who is known to have been talking to a ‘small group of widows’ ) then proposed that a new ‘responsibility’ be added to the legislation for this proposed ‘Yarnell Hill Memorial Site Board’.

    She wanted to add a new ‘responsibility’ that the Board would be the ones to ‘establish permissions for individuals to visit the memorial’

    Here is an online page that has the CHANGES that Karen Fan proposed for the Bill in an AMENDMENT she brought to the floor of the House of Representatives just 48 hours after the Bill was ‘introduced’…

    https://legiscan.com/AZ/amendment/HB2624/id/10810

    ———————————————————————————————-
    Bill Title: Yarnell Hill memorial; appropriation

    Status: 2014-04-30 – Chapter 273 E [HB2624 Detail]

    Download: Arizona-2014-HB2624-

    HOUSE_ADOPTED_AMENDMENT_Fann_SUBSTITUTE_Floor_amendment_to_the_ENERGY_ENVIRONMENT_AND_NATURAL_RESOURCES_Committee_amendment_Reference_to_printed_bill.html

    Fifty-first Legislature
    Second Regular Session
    Fann ( Karen )
    H.B. 2624

    FANN ( KAREN ) SUBSTITUTE FLOOR AMENDMENT

    HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES AMENDMENTS TO H.B. 2624

    I move the following SUBSTITUTE Floor amendment to the ENERGY, ENVIRONMENT AND NATURAL RESOURCES Committee amendment to HOUSE BILL 2624 ( Reference to printed bill )

    Between lines 11 and 12, insert:

    “4. THE YARNELL HILL MEMORIAL SITE BOARD SECURES THE NECESSARY PERMISSIONS FOR INDIVIDUALS TO VISIT THE MEMORIAL.”

    KAREN FANN

    2624-f1-fann
    2/28/14
    9:02 AM
    H:as
    —————————————————————————————————-

    That ‘amendment’ proposed by Karen Fann ( ALONE ) was approved, and from that moment on ( and until it was passed into LAW )… one of the ADDED ‘responsibilities’ for this Arizona PUBLIC “Yarnell Hill Memorial Site Board” was to be…

    4. THE YARNELL HILL MEMORIAL SITE BOARD SECURES THE NECESSARY PERMISSIONS FOR INDIVIDUALS TO VISIT THE MEMORIAL.

    So someone appears to have ‘gotten to’ State Representative Karen Fann in the 48 hours after the Bill was originally introduced and ‘lobbied’ her to add a clause that would allow this Board itself to decide who could or could not ‘VISIT THE MEMORIAL’.

    More about this later… because Karen Fann was then ALSO the one who added even MORE amendments ( ALONE ) about perhaps allowing a group of ‘widows’ to be the ones to have ‘first rights of purchase’ on the land.

    How much you want to bet that this ‘small group of widows’ were the ones who also made sure she added that ‘amendment’ about ‘permissions’… which ended up surviving in the Bill until it was signed into LAW and still exists today.

    We still don’t know who all of this ‘small group of widows’ were that had State Representative Karen Fann’s ‘ear’ throughout this legislative process… but the money is good for at least TWO names…

    Amanda Marsh
    Deborah Pfingston ( not even technically a widow, but possibly still directly involved ).

    BOTH of these individuals are functioning ‘members’ of the Board itself… and they are STILL having a direct influence on how this ‘State Park’ turns out.

    Amanda Marsh herself is the one who the Board has unanimously approved to do some kind of offline POLLING of the ‘family members’ to determine if the PUBLIC will ever be able to get near the deployment site, or not. She is doing this POLLING in an UNSUPERVISED way and is/was supposed to just ‘report back’ to the Board on what the ‘decision’ is going to be.

    Reply

    • Thank you WTKTT!!

      Apparently that’s another (need I say almost hidden from view?) place where “the rubber hit the road?

      So, apparently, even though there is absolutely NO PRECEDENT in the entire history of Arizona State Parks for any kind of designation of an Arizona State MEMORIAL Park, much less any kind of special restrictions on the kind of visitors allowed into that Arizona State Memorial Park, written into ANY of the Rules pertaining to that designation ANYWHERE in any of the rules/laws governing any other of the Arizona State Parks………..this happened.

      Apparently, the folks in the (not so highly esteemed) Arizona State Legislature were sloppy in their thinking and their research. Why am I not surprised??????

      This may be dictating things now, but I don’t think it’s going to hold up in the long run.

      I was thinking, before I read this, that the architecture of the laws surrounding the Arizona State Parks would support an easy peasy challenge to this whole “restrictions” thing. Now that I’m reading this, I’m thinking that, since this was encoded into the legislation, it might be a little less “easy peasy” to challenge it.

      But it still needs to be challenged. For all the reasons I’ve written in all my comments downstream.

      The fricken Governor of the State of Arizona said that this purchase was for the Pubic. So did the head of Arizona State Parks. I’m with Gary on this. All things considered, I think when this becomes seriously visibly PUBLIC (which is isn’t right now but it will be eventually), a lot of shi*t is going to hit the fan.

      I am sorry for you, Wildland Firefighters™. Your much-deserved, and up until now honored, need for a site in which you, and the public (who really need to be involved in this discussion, all things considered), can contemplate and discuss how and why a bunch of your brothers perished in a wildfire, is being hijacked by an alternative agenda.

      I’m seriously feeling pretty sick about this. Just sayin’.

      Reply

      • I agree with everything you just said, Marti. Facts and sentiments.

        State Representative Karen Fann was just the ‘flunky’ here.

        It was (apparently) NOT her idea to put anything in the actual original legislation that she co-sponsored about anyone being the ‘visitation permission overlords’ for any proposed Arizona State Park.

        Someone ELSE got her to INSERT that into the legislation in pursuit of their OWN ( private ) agenda.

        So the real ‘story’ there is… WHO WAS THAT?

        Depending on the circumstances ( possible quid-pro-quo, etc. ), it might very well be a case of ‘undue influence on a legislator’ that might even arise to criminal charges.

        There are, in fact, LAWS about that sort of thing.

        Ooops… I forgot… Arizona State Motto seems to be…

        RULES ARE FOR OTHER PEOPLE… NOT US.

        Reply

      • The bill became LAW in April of 2014.
        It was first introduced and had its first ‘reading’ on the floor of the Arizona House of Representatives on February 11, 2014.

        That original Bill, as read on the floor of the House, did NOT have any language in it about this proposed ‘Memorial Board’ having anything to do with ‘permissions’.

        That got ‘added’ by State Representative Karen Fann at the same time she was also trying to add the clause which said this “small group of widows” should have “first dibs” on buying the land for themselves.

        There COULD be serious ‘quid-pro-quo’ issues here.

        Let’s say that one of these ‘widows’ might have actually had some kind of ‘business’ relationship with State Representative Karen Fann.

        For the sake of argument, let’s just say that maybe Karen Fann likes ( and owns ) horses. Let’s also just say that the person she employs to maintain the horseshoes for her horses turns out to be one of the widows.

        If that widow was then one of the “small group of widows” that was known to be talking to Karen Fann and known to be influencing the content of a proposed piece of Arizona legislation…

        ..then that’s a PROBLEM and the full circumstances need to be looked at by the Arizona State Legislature House Ethics Committee.

        Reply

        • Thanks, WTKTT. I was a little foggy on the exact timeline of all of this. None of this was even on my radar during February thru April of last year.

          And, one of my first thoughts after doing a little research was “hmmmmm horses?” also.

          There’s a WHOLE bunch of double-speak going on here.

          Reply

          • The ‘Complete Legislative Action’ history for this Bill that established this Arizona State sponsored “Yarnell Hill Memorial Site” Board is here.

            It shows exactly how/when it ‘traveled’ through both the House and the Senate and then on to the Governor’s desk.

            There are also links to all the ‘versions’ of it including the ORIGINAL and then all the incremental ‘amendments’ that were being ‘added’ by State Representative Karen Fann ( Prescott ).

            https://legiscan.com/AZ/bill/HB2624/2014

            Legislative History of HB2624

            First ‘reading’ in the House: February 11, 2014.
            Signed into LAW by Governor: April 30, 2014

            S = Senate
            H = House of Representatives
            Cmte. = Committee
            ————————————————————
            Date, Chamber, Action
            ————————————————————
            2014-04-30,, Chapter 273 E
            2014-04-30,, Governor Signed
            2014-04-24,, Transmitted to Governor
            2014-04-23, S, Transmit to House
            2014-04-23, S, Senate third reading PASSED voting: (24-1-5-0)
            2014-04-16, S, Senate Cmte., Whole action: Do Pass Amended
            2014-04-14, S, Senate majority caucus: Do pass
            2014-04-14, S, Senate minority caucus: Do pass
            2014-04-09, S, Senate RULES Cmte. action: Proper For Consideration
            2014-03-10, S, Referred to Senate RULES Committee
            2014-03-17, S, Senate GE Cmte. action: Do Pass, voting: (6-0-1-0)
            2014-03-10, S, Referred to Senate GE Committee
            2014-03-11, S, Senate APPROP Cmte. action: Do Pass, voting: (7-0-2-0)
            2014-03-11, S, Referred to Senate APPROP Committee
            2014-03-11, S, Senate read second time
            2014-03-10, S, Assigned to Senate RULES Committee
            2014-03-10, S, Assigned to Senate GE Committee
            2014-03-10, S, Assigned to Senate APPROP Committee
            2014-03-10, S, Introduced in Senate and read first time
            2014-03-05 H, Transmit to Senate
            2014-03-05 H, House third reading PASSED voting: (56-2-2-0)
            2014-03-03 H, House Cmte. of the Whole action: Do Pass Amended
            2014-02-27, H, House majority caucus: Do pass
            2014-02-27, H, House minority caucus: Do pass
            2014-02-26, H, House RULES Cmte constitutional and proper form.
            2014-02-11, H, Referred to House RULES Committee
            2014-02-19, H, House APPROP Committee action: Do Pass
            2014-02-11, H, Referred to House APPROP Committee
            2014-02-17, H, House EENR Cmte, action: Do Pass Amended
            2014-02-12, H, Referred to House EENR Committee
            2014-02-12, H, House read second time
            2014-02-11, H, Assigned to House RULES Committee
            2014-02-11 H, Assigned to House APPROP Committee
            2014-02-11, H, Assigned to House EENR Committee
            2014-02-11, H, Introduced in House and read first time
            ————————————————————

            Notice ( in the timeline ) that State Representative Karen Fann ( Presoctt ) waited until AFTER this proposed legislation was read for the ‘second’ time in the House and AFTER it had gone to ‘Committee’ before she started adding her proposed ‘amendments’ about having the Board decide who has ‘permission’ to visit the memorial and her attempts to get a clause in there giving some of the widows “first dibs” on buying the property.

            Karen Fann waited until February 14, 2014, before she started CHANGING the original Bill as read ( twice ) before the House.

            Reply

        • Thinking further abut this, I’m thinking that, when that language was inserted:

          “4. THE YARNELL HILL MEMORIAL SITE BOARD SECURES THE NECESSARY PERMISSIONS FOR INDIVIDUALS TO VISIT THE MEMORIAL.”

          it was intended to mean the Board was authorized to secure the necessary permissions for them and people working with them to access the still-owned-by-ArizonaTrustLands area of the site, which required permitting to access, and probably also permission from private landholders, in order to survey and think out the design and the access issues. They talked about that in that meeting earlier this spring.

          Somehow, that phrasing has been twisted, by July, 2015, into:

          “Chairman Black opened up general discussion among the Board members.

          * Board members discussed multi agency partnerships, and that the family’s needs and wants for the memorial site were continuous monitored and met.”

          I just really don’t think that was what was intended in the legislation. The Board was authorized to discuss whether the State Parks should buy the land, or a private entity. They decided State Parks should bid for and, hopefully, purchase the land.

          This whole thing has been completely hijacked. Thus the double-speak. And probably the missing minutes, also.

          Reply

  72. READER ALERT; Critical Information has now been posted on this blog for your edification;

    Marti Reed says

    September 29, 2015 at 5:38 pm

    I’ll check my email as soon as I get back from the 7-11 and maybe also Blakes LottaBurger.

    I’ve just been totally buried in this whole “Arizona State Parks” thing.

    Gary Olson says

    September 29, 2015 at 10:06 pm

    Hmmmm…green chile Blake’s LOTA burger!

    http://www.lotaburger.com/menu/

    They are now moving into Arizona and they are already in Tucson.

    Reply

  73. **
    ** YARNELL FIRE CHIEF ( BEN PALM ) AS ‘GATEKEEPER’

    Reply to Sonny post as September 29, 2015 at 6:29 pm

    >> Sonny said…
    >>
    >> WWTKTT- good question to you. How can a town fire chief Chief Ben Palm
    >> have anything at all to do with STATE PARK LAND- he works for the town
    >> not the state yet is in charge supposedly of who is able to visit the deployment site.

    I believe there are TWO answers to this.

    1) APPOINTMENT TO YARNELL MEMORIAL BOARD AND CHAIRMAN OF
    THE ‘ACCESS’ SUBCOMMITTEE OF THAT BOARD.

    Here is the Arizona Legislature BILL that established the ‘Yarnell Memorial Site Board’, and designated who was supposed to be on it.

    http://www.azleg.gov/legtext/51leg/2r/bills/hb2624h.pdf

    Seat number 6 ( out of 14 total Board seats ) is described as follows…

    6. A REPRESENTATIVE FROM THE YARNELL FIRE DISTRICT, WHO IS APPOINTED BY THE SPEAKER OF THE HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES.

    So that ‘automatically’ became Yarnell Fire Chief Ben Palm.

    Chief Ben Palm was then asked to be the Chairman of this Board’s ‘Access Subcommitte’… and he agreed.

    According to one of their own press releases, the Board’s complete ‘access committee’ has the following people on it…

    Ben Palm (Chairman)
    Lenora Nelson
    Max Masel
    Bill Boyd
    Jay Ream
    Michael King;

    So Chief Ben Palm has been the one in charge of trying to work out the ‘access’ details for the proposed State Park for this PUBLIC ‘Memorial Board’.

    That can also be construed to mean he is ALREADY “in charge of actual access to the site” and, indeed, both HE and the BOARD seem to think that IS the case.

    This was demonstrated by Gary Olson just now when his request to visit the site got ‘punted’ from Arizona Parks right over to Chief Palm himself.

    The Yarnell Hill Memorial Board is meant to be a TEMPORARY organization, so whatever ‘authoritay’ Chief Ben Palm thinks he has at the moment to control ‘acceess’ to the State Park land is going to have get backed up by some other document at some point after this BOARD evaporates.

    See the next section about ‘Inter-Agency Agreements’.

    2) INTER-AGENCY AGREEMENTS TO HELP CONTROL ACCESS TO THE SITE

    The ‘second’ part of the answer to your question about Chief Ben Palm has to do with something that the ‘Yarnell Memorial Site Board’ themselves seemed to be discussing in their own July 31, 2015 meeting.

    The notes about this ‘discussion’ are piss-poor and seem to almost trying to be purposely VAGUE about what was ACTUALLY being discussed…

    …but the minutes indicate that the Board knows fully well this is going to be an ‘unstaffed’ Arizona State PUBLIC Park… and so if they really want to ‘lock down’ access in any way… they are going to need ‘other agencies’ to help them pull it off.

    That means CODIFIED ( written ) ‘agreements’ or ‘contracts’ between Arizona State Parks and various ‘other agencies’ like the Yavapai County Sheriff’s Office and ( you guessed it ) the Yarnell Hill Fire Department ( since they are the closest ‘public agency’ to the site itself ).

    Once again… here is the short ‘blurb’ that appeared in the minutes from their July 15, 2015 meeting.

    —————————————————————
    Chairman Black opened up general discussion among the Board members.

    * Board members discussed multi agency partnerships, and that the family’s needs and wants for the memorial site were continuously monitored and met.
    —————————————————————-

    Sounds pretty innocent, yes?

    But break down this piss-poor note-taking and it says something different.

    * ‘multi-agency partnerships’.

    Normally… all the ‘security’ of an Arizona State park is required to be enforced by duly employed ‘Park Rangers’. That includes reports of ‘trespassing’ or invalid access to certain areas.

    Well… talking about ‘multi-agency parnterships’ could very well mean they are acknowledging the fact that there will be no permanent park rangers at this ‘Memorial Site’… so they are going to need ‘multi-agency’ agreements with the Yavapai County Sheriff’s office and/or the Yarnell Fire Department to keep this site ‘locked down’ they way they really WANT to.

    * The family’s needs and wants for the memorial site were
    * continuously monitored and met.

    In other words… the meeting apparently took the turn towards “we are gonna need multi-agency law enforcement agreements in place in order to make sure no one but family members ( or firefighters ) are gaining full access to this site”

    So this discussion is happening on July 31, 2015 BEFORE Amanda Marsh even ‘launches’ on her little UNSUPERVISED ‘polling’ mission of the family members.

    They ( the 8 Board members who actually bothered to show up on July 31 ) seem to be ‘assuming’ that the final decision would be some level of ‘lock down’ on the site… and they are gonna need ‘multi ( law enforcement ) agency” agreements to even have a chance at pulling off a ‘lock down’ and to ( exact quote ) “continuously monitor and meet the family’s requirements”.

    This is a frickin’ STATE PARK we are talking about…

    …and THEY still seem to be talking about how much ‘law enforcement’ support and ‘cooperation’ it’s gonna take to do some level of ‘lock downs’ on this STATE PARK.

    So the ‘Yarnell Hill Memorial Site’ Board is probably already at work on some ‘official’ agreement between ‘Arizona Parks’ and the ‘Yarnell Hill Fire Department’ to cooperate fully in making sure the (quote) “family’s requirements are continuously monitored and met”.

    In other words… whoever is the Yarnell Fire Chief would then be the one who has some king of official ‘authoritay’ to kick someone’s ass out of the State Park.

    They can’t make these “Inter-Agency Agreements” in secret.

    At some point… all these DOCUMENTS that might establish these “Inter-Agency Agreements” between ‘Arizona Parks’ and who-knows-who have to made available to the PUBLIC for inspection.

    Reply

  74. Reply to Sonny post on September 29, 2015 at 3:32 pm

    >> Sonny said…
    >>
    >> WTKKT Well said. Thanks and that is exactly how the situation would be,
    >> A simple rock mound where visitors cast a rock would build a memorial that
    >> each person could remember them by. Joy and I started one along the trail
    >> going up and left a message if you pass place a stone in remembrance
    >> of the men.

    Yes. I have seen that rock pile memorial that you and Joy have already started ( at the last place you saw the men that day ) in many of the publicly released photos.

    I think it’s very fitting and respectful.

    When people visit a place where something tragic took place… there usually comes a moment when you have this strange urge to just DO something. Anything at all.

    I remember when I first visited the Vietnam War Memorial. I found the name of someone I had known back in my hometown there on the wall. I then had that same strange urge to just DO something. One of the ‘attendants’ at the Memorial must have actually noticed that and been used to whatever ‘look’ had on my face at that moment because the next thing I knew he was tapping me on the shoulder and offering me a piece of paper and a lead pencil.

    He said “Would you like to do a ‘rubbing’ of the name? It’s OK. Here… use these”.

    I did exactly that… and then ( for reasons that are really inexplicable ), I actually did ‘feel a little better’. Like I had done SOMETHING ( anything ) to honor the name that was there before me on that wall.

    I still have that rubbing in the same kind of box that we all have. The kind of box with little things in it that even if the house was threatened by Fire… it would be the first ( and only ) BOX that I would grab as I fled the scene.

    >> Sonny also said…
    >>
    >> It was a fitting way to show respect and although that monument
    >> is high up the mountain many left stones as they passed. Some
    >> left stones with messages on them. Over time the monument
    >> would build and be seen high above the manzanita–that is
    >> if all are allowed to pay their respects.

    I think that’s a great idea, Sonny.

    It would not surprise me if that sort of thing just starts to happen automatically when this ‘park’ opens to the public… but it would be better if it was actually ‘planned for’ by this committee. Over the years… it would become quite something to see.

    I don’t know if you knew about this… but the reason it would be even MORE fitting is because of something Andrew Ashcraft himself would always do.

    His son, Ryder, loved ROCKS.

    Andrew would always pick UP a rock at each fire he went to and bring it HOME to Ryder.

    When Juliann Ashcraft was presented with what was left from the contents of her husband Andrew’s field pack following the Yarnell tragedy… one of the things recovered from the pack was a ROCK from the Yarnell Fire that Andrew had already spotted and picked up that day and was the one he was bringing home to Ryder from Yarnell.

    Juliann Ashcraft tells the story herself far better than anyone else could.

    Here is Juliann Ashcraft’s BLOG entry about her visit with Holly Neill and her husband Wayne at the start of Juliann’s ‘Spread the Better’ 50 state tour..

    That visit, itself, became about ‘rock hunting’, and there are also some great photos on this same BLOG page.

    http://bebetterbrigade.blogspot.com/2015/04/holly-and-wayne-farmington-nm.html

    NOTE: ‘Ryder Ashcraft’ is one of Andrew and Juliann’s 4 children. He is the oldest of their 3 sons. He was born on June 4, 2007 and is now 8 years old.

    In Juliann’s own words…
    —————————————————————————
    Collecting rocks has been a meaningful past time in Ryder’s life. It is an activity that he shared with his Dad. Andrew would pick up a rock on each fire he went on as part of the Granite Mountain Hotshot Crew and bring it home to Ryder. It was a memory for him of the various fires he went on, and it gave Ryder something to look forward to each time that he watched his Daddy leave for another long work trip. When we received Andrew’s belongings after he lost his life in Yarnell, a beautiful gift for Ryder was found in the side pocket of his pack…a rock from the Yarnell Hill Fire that his Dad had picked out just for him before he passed away. Ryder’s Uncle T.J. (Andrew’s big brother) presented that rock to Ryder just as his Daddy would have if he were here. A cherished moment in Ryder’s life.
    —————————————————————————

    So… yea, Sonny.

    ‘Rocks’ are now (already) a ‘part of the legend’ of the ‘Yarnell Hill Tragedy’ and your idea is an excellent one.

    Ryder is only 8 years old.

    He will grow up to be a MAN someday… and imagine how pleased he might be ( as the years go by ) to discover that thousands and thousands of people keep (respectfully) stacking ‘rocks’ at the place where his Daddy died… just like his Daddy used to diligently bring rocks HOME to HIM.

    I just hope this can happen NEAR where those men died… and not have to be in some ‘other’ place and be just an ongoing monument to how ‘the public’ isn’t even ALLOWED to get ‘near’ that place.

    I hope that anyone who feels the urge to ‘stack a rock’ ( for Andrew, or ANY of those departed souls ) and wants it to be NEAR the spot where they died…

    …doesn’t have to THROW THE ROCK just to get it there.

    Reply

  75. I have some really good news for everyone. I got an email from Chief Ben Palm and he assures me the GMIHC Memorial Park will soon be open for VISITORS!

    From ben palm

    To [email protected]

    Gary,

    Ken from Arizona State Parks sent me you name as someone who wanted to visit the Deployment Site. We will not be able to take you into this area as it’s closed. June 30, 2016 is the tentative date for the Site to be open for visitors.

    Yarnell Fire Department

    Chief Ben Palm

    (928) 427-6578-office

    PO Box 581

    Yarnell, AZ. 85362

    Reply

    • A reader just asked me by email, “Just read IM. Why didn’t Ken from state parks tell you it was closed? Was it the chief’s decision?”

      Which I think are valid questions that others may have and so I am posting them here along with my answer. Which was;

      “The park area isn’t closed to everyone, it is open to some people depending on who you are and your credentials. Ken who is their PIO, told me that his role is to take the contact information, my reasons for wanting to visit and then “run it up the chain” for a decision of whether I could visit the park area or not. Apparently, I did not meet their criteria of worthiness. It’s a hoot…except it is really sad and disturbing.

      And I said I was a former wildland firefighter who was writing a book about the Yarnell Hill Fire and I wanted to hike around the general deployment site to view it and photograph it.”

      Reply

      • Here are my answers to another viewers comments and questions..

        “Yes, it is a bunch of bullshit, no I didn’t buy it, and no I don’t expect to ever get Palm’s permission to visit the site and yes, I agree that was his way of saying I will NEVER get permission to visit the site. “

        Reply

        • “No, neither one (not the State Parks Dept., or the Yarnell Hill Fire Dept.), up the chain of the Granite Mountain Hotshot Memorial State Park BOARD! They are making the decision who gets to visit the park!

          Reply

          • “I think they really want to, but I think the IM is not the only place people are or will be getting fired up. I think (I hope) in the end they are defeated, but they are going to fight for it. Maybe when I do go, I will go down and wait to be arrested for being there, won’t that be an experience? It will make a great story for the book that I will never write on the YHF.”

            Reply

    • That planned “Dedication/Opening” DATE ( June 30, 2016 ) matches the following entry from the July 31, 2015 meeting minutes of the ‘Yarnell Memorial Site’ Board…

      ————————————————————————
      5. Discuss the Granite Mountain Hotshots Memorial State Park Project Timeline.

      * Chairman Black introduced the project timeline as a draft and that deadlines
      provided goals to shoot for to keep project momentum.

      * Renee Gillespie briefed the Board regarding critical dates to hit in order to keep
      the project on track for a dedication ceremony on June 30 2016.

      * Discussion was had that Arizona State Parks would construct and install the
      project components
      ————————————————————————

      The ‘larger-than-life’ bronze statue of TLTNTSATD ( The Lookout They Needed To Stay Alive That Day ) won’t be finished or installed by that date, according to other notes in the minutes, but that’s not supposed to hold up the Dedication Ceremony.

      >> Chief Ben Palm said…
      >>
      >> “We will not be able to take you into this area as it’s closed”

      By WHOSE authority… and with WHAT ( new ) document and/or closure order?

      >> Gary Olson said…
      >>
      >> I always went with being Special Agent Friendly or Dumb Ass that needed
      >> things explained to me very slowly and in simple language.

      If you wanted to stick with “Option 2’… you COULD ask a followup question…

      Thank you for you reply.
      It is my understanding that whatever Arizona State Land Department Closure Orders that were in effect for that land became null and void when the property was sold to Arizona State Parks the morning of June 30, 2015. Can you point me to the NEW document which now also officially establishes the land as being ‘closed’ to hiking?

      Reply

      • Were you listening to the conversation I had with the nice lady at the Arizona State Parks who works in a senior advisory role that I was transferred to just as soon as my questions got a little bit hard to answer?

        No…I know you weren’t, because you would have learned how I morph from being Mr. Friendly Dumb Ass to a former federal agent conducting an adversarial interview with a subject who wants to conceal the truth from me.

        That is one of the questions I asked in a series of questions that pinned her down further and further and further and further, right up to the point she broke and said I will have someone call you back. They haven’t called me back yet.

        The nice lady’s name is Nancy Garcia. Her email address is [email protected]

        And she works for the Arizona State Land Department. The question she finally refused to answer is; Does Arizona State Land Commissioner Vanessa P. Hickman have the statutory authority to issue a Closure Order for Arizona State Park land?”

        Reply

        • Oh…and one more thing just because I know you will get a kick out of it, here is the follow up email I sent to Ken Sliwa, who is the Arizona State Parks PIO with a more specific question. Ken hasn’t gotten back to me…yet.

          gary olson

          Sep 28 at 11:29 AM

          [email protected]

          Hi Ken,

          I just went to the Yarnell Hill Memorial Fund site that you referred me to review the Closure Order that we discussed. The only Closure Order I found on the site it the one that was signed by Vanessa Hickman, State Land Commissioner on July 12, 2013. Is this the current Closure Order or is there another one?

          Thanks, Gary

          Bunch of FUCKING amateurs!

          Reply

          • Here’s what really pisses ME off.

            We are continually seeing groups of people here ( From the top levels on down ) who seem to all be humming the same ‘mantra’.

            RULES ARE FOR OTHER PEOPLE… NOT US.

            I will bet you won’t hear back from anyone.

            Why?… because you just nailed them to the wall with their own hammer.

            I will bet money that in all technical and legal aspects… there is NO CURRENT VALID CLOSURE ORDER that pertains to the south half of section 9, Township 10 North, Range 05 West.

            Chief Ben Palm ( Just a Yarnell Fire Chief ) can SAY in emails “I’m sorry… the land is closed” all day long.

            That doesn’t make it a FACT.

            There has to have been some NEW kind of document that exists which is the OPPOSITE of…

            “This land is your land… this land is my land… from California… to the New York Island. This land was made for you and me”.

            There has to be some NEW document/order approved PUBLICLY by the Arizona State Parks Department that says that piece of land they bought is ‘under construction’, or something, and is currently CLOSED TO ALL PUBLIC ACCESS.

            They don’t have it.
            They KNOW they don’t have it.

            And even if they DID… it has to be POSTED.

            There are no ‘yellow lines’ painted on the ground out there like the Yavapai County Tax Assessor’s Google-Earth based program shows.

            If they want someone off the new PARK LAND until they declare it ‘officially open’… then it still has to be MARKED and POSTED that way or you can’t expect anyone to know if their on ‘closed land’… or not.

            Reply

            • And speaking of…

              RULES ARE FOR OTHER PEOPLE… NOT US

              That’s (ultimately) the reason they are struggling to even build this ‘Memorial’ in the first place.

              If those men had followed the RULES of their OWN profession… there would still be nothing in that Box Canyon but the burned up remains of all the rattlesnakes that Joy relocated there.

              Maybe it’s in the water there in the great and wonderful state of Arizona.

              RULES ARE FOR OTHER PEOPLE… NOT US.

              Reply

                • Oh…and one more thing, Nancy Garcia’s title is;

                  APIS Manager (INFORMATION SYSTEMS) but right now apparently she is the Acting Admin & Budget Director

                  Her telephone number is;

                  602 542-2665

                  Reply

  76. Joy asked, TOPIC: Max Masel

    QUESTION:

    Did you agree with me. Straight shooter and explains things thorough?

    Comment/REPLY

    I never got that far because the Arizona Land Department told me they no longer owned that land and therefore were not concerned/involved with it any more. I think everybody including Max has been giving you the; first you talk to Mr. White, then to Mr.. Green, then to Mr.. Black, then to Mr.. Brown and then you get the run-around.

    Reply

    • Sounds like a game of clue your reply Gary … where is that candlestick … I know where the rope is…around my neck it seems…Mr. Green…soft smiles.

      Reply

      • Topic: Karen Fann
        Statement: In 2016 I will address this topic but not feeling at ease currently but I have ran into folks who know her.

        Topic: Marti Reed.
        Comment: Check your email.

        Topic: YHF and its aftermath
        Comment: thank you to someone for mentioning a belief I also have…I have no doubt by the way the initial moment the men were located 6-30-13 to meeting loved ones of the GMHS and firefighters/friends of the men…etc…that there is people amongst the world trying to create that this website is all about conspiracy theorists when in reality these folks doing that are trying to use MY tax paying dollar to make their outcome..THEIR OUTCOME…I do have a concern on that…also what person placed Chief Ben Palm in spot he is in versus posting a job listing…I learned ALOT from a relative of one of these folks last December 2014—Karen Fann, Chief Ben Palm, Willis and so this relative gave me inside information that I know they probably should not have…especially during a time I was getting rumors on one of the people from locals and ex/current YFD folks…this family member enjoyed us so much because we are the voice for those he cannot be (ODD coming from a relative huh)…in that talk I learned I M folks have been awful hard on Willis when they should learn the information before doing such…it was also this relative who gave us heads up before it happened kind of thing…
        this relative who is on the in of one of the above has been very helpful to help me understand this fire and the folks who were on it to the aftermath.

        SIDE NOTE:
        At the end of 1976 a movie was released—Lyman Dayton’s directed BAKER’S HAWK.
        The movie parallels YHF aftermath in the matter of the Weaver Mountains.
        Especially how I am singled out.
        I mean in reality who was the one finding evidence on the Weavers yet that person never got YCSO to
        serve an original afidivat with that topic on it but I did. If I just let it go and did no hearing than I was
        saying it is okay and it is not okay; the “mob-like” behaviors that has been shown from different organizations like YCSO deputy who singled me out even though Sonny was present on December 1, 2014—why just me.
        in the movie…
        The little boy said “Dad, you should sign…get the bad folks out” and when his father
        said “Okay son so me and the good guys we are going over to your friend’s Jeremy to burn his house down.”
        kid replied “But Pa, Jeremy is good people.” …you see you give the righteous man that kind of gathering,
        things can get out of hand and who has the capability to restrict a man or woman but someone who should not even
        be in that position due to obvious factors—conflict of interest—
        On July 12, 2015 a law was put into ORDER restricting 320 acres…it did not say in the ORDER…fire community or extended
        family or guests…I asked directly to DEFINE the law and I was
        told NOONE is allowed on the 320 acres except the investigators assigned to the YHF and the families could be at the area the men died only.
        I said can I go with a family member…you see I have been asked to go over time to go to the site but only went with OSHA.
        They said no, noone can go yet I turned around and explained how I addressed the grey area to YCSO Sgt. Ashby and another one above her and
        he said and she said well, yes there is a grey area. Chief Ben Palm is the suppose person to go to if you want permission to go out there.
        I went above him to who is in control of the order to ask the questions. What I have learned is even if I am living my own life noone can show me
        the way but some will try especially ones out for votes and monies. The law is the law. I would like you to NAME the person Gary who told you the
        fire community and misc. are allowed out there. Did you speak to Trespassing Officer of state land—now that my friend is an interesting person I spoke to—I think you should call the YCSO Sgt Ashby and see what their current rules are on topic being its out of jurisdiction on the map layer of assessor and it lies with park ranger…call park ranger…see what is the latest news on topic…I will go right now and get certified as a firefighter just so I can walk out there if that is true.
        I will go with Prescott Fire Dept. as you said is required but that is not facts because MANY of hikes we saw from the top DID NOT have Prescott or YFD
        present for others hikes. Another GREY area. It is my character and decency that has kept me “cool” yet let me make it clear THEIR AGENDA—it’s hand-writing on the wall. It
        stinks..it’s rotten. Like in the movie—quote—“I’m as popular as the plague.”—-Burl Ives reminds me of Sonny in the movie…we both have such a way with animals.
        When that woman Maryann said her Tennessee Walker was blind in one eye due to injury and was a rearer/bucker…she wanted that in bill of sale written yet do know
        in all the times we rode the horse “Faith” never bucked or reared. She had a serious eye injury yet she was not blind just not as able. As the desert walker I
        want the world to know you can restrict man from me but don’t pull me away from my terrain and wildlife. Many homeowners could not have cleaned up their destroyed by YHF
        homes if it was not for us because not only did we help day in and out on clean up but we are the ones that buried burnt up wildlife and alot too…the stench was
        awful in that Summer heat. We were the one for FREE relocating wildlife and skunks and rattlers for people…I know I am MORE than a horse whisperer–I am very
        connected to the animal world. I use to know every animal from ground to sky before the fire and limited in access to know that after because of some horseshit
        law made up yet I have to just hike elsewhere to appease a few…I have mended animals and set them free…I have trained wild and domestic animals. I had a lady last
        Summer 2014 when Sonny was in Montana she asked me to sign a contract to watch their feral barn cat while a family member was in the hospital and wanted me to keep it caged
        so it would not run off. I told her I would sign contract with reality I won’t keep cat caged if it does not want it. She was nervous by my comment yet I am a honest
        straight shooter. She left and it was an extreme feral cat and biter and scratcher and hisser- a genuine barn feral cat. I had to video the moment of magic to show the lady. I took a moment and
        looked cat straight in eyes as it hissed and swat and wanted to bite and explained within one hour I am taking the matted down cat and giving it a bath than I am going to
        blow dry the cat and remove the fleas and bugs in a non chemical invasive way called a very fine tuned flea comb. Than we are going to lay on back patio bed and watch the
        stars under the moonlit sky and relax and enjoy the noises of the desert. At first attempt to pick her up he went for the flesh and I removed hand and said okay let’s
        talk and get to know another and I began to explain how I use to spend all my time in the desert helping wildlife that some camp in the backyard. The cat was so fixated
        on being mean and hissing and swatting that I told the cat direct that may work and scare others but I have been right in front of a mountain lion and bobcat and wolves and showed
        the cat the videos of me saving a bobcat and I showed it five times than the cat is looking at me like this girl ain’t right…not afraid of my hiss or my bite attempts
        and just speaking to me like I am her friend. I will let her think we are okay and let her hold me and the cat did. I held it as the video timed it 20 minutes than I put her
        in cage and filled the bath up with warm water and milk and I got my bathing suit on to learn I am a fat person and note to self never go public in this as I once did…
        got the cat and played the hiss game for 8 minutes, held it for 11 than off to bath time. I let cat down and explained I would be stepping in water first than placing her
        in the water with towel over my leg in water in case she went nuts. The warm holding and the warm water were welcomed. I was so shocked HOW welcomed. I spent 45 minutes
        washing the cat good. with 3 sets of new water. Not one problem. As I went to turn blow dryer on I was concerned the noise would freak the cat yet again the cat just laid on my
        lap while I dried her. I sent all the videos to the owner. She did not believe her eyes. She said she was furious when I disobeyed her the very same night and said I
        should of never done that. Than she said she was coming to get the cat in cage first thing in the morning. She got to my home and saw her cat lying on the leather couch
        asleep at peace and she said where is my cat and I said that is your cat. She said she watched the videos and was more focused on being mad at me than to see what really
        just happened…this cat she said was NEVER held ever not by her or anyone. she always had to cage it to move it. I picked the cat up and told her the cat wanted to
        be held all along yet her trust was broken early in her life with her enviroment. Would you like to hold her. That lady laid on my couch in weeping tears rubbing the cat
        and holding her with such love for many hours. I can source the lady to Mesa, Arizona and can back up every detail I just typed. I have something with animals so deep that I in front
        of Frankie Serros removed a jumping cholla out of a wild mojave rattlesnake’s eyes and Frankie almost passed out watching me. I have taken wings of birds and mended them…
        I have been in caves to come upon a bear as well a den of rattlers…you ever put 5 rattlers in snake box before—not easy but I have done it. I had to to get out of cave.
        They were not visible going in but they were on way out…I think what the powers to be did to me was wrong to make me their isolated target when I have such a love
        for that terrain as I do…in a way because they did that and because I was asked from all investigators and Elizabeth what do I want to see from this fire aftermath and I
        replied the proper materials be returned to family members and other firefighters…people who have missing elements come forward and disect the shit out of the cell records from that day…
        make sure no future firefighter goes out on a fire with faulty radio or faulty fire tools and LISTEN TO Jim Roth/David Turbyfill and make sure the gag ends where
        BR/Paul Morin can speak freely as well as CYFD and Sun City and CLVD and etc….Because of all the shadiness I seen…probably better I stay away from a terrain like that…
        too many tragedies happened before the 19 died there so maybe it is God’s way of protecting me.
        It did feel like how Sonny’s family over by Lordsburg felt when they imminent domained his whole family for the benefit of another…Dr. Ted Putnam felt I would of been
        such a valued asset to that Memorial Board but my reply to him and the world HOW can I feel free to share when the very members of that board were okay to what was done
        to me. How would they have felt hearing the rumors stir to ask the person direct and have him say he did not owe me any explanation to than keep hearing it even from current
        and old YFD people too so I don’t know but to me some way or some day I have to learn to accept the things I cannot change (Reinhold Niebuhr)…as you can see slow on accepting it when I see folks still going out there obvious not related and not fire community… this other board of theirs are for the ones with
        PTSD following the fire yet as the EYEWITNESS to the YHF look at the support I have been shown when all I have done is help all try to process this fire and properly assess it.

        GOD BLESS WHO GARY? Did you say AMERICA?
        It does not feel very American to not be able to walk amongst this land…Sonny told me it is a part of the Constitution

        another side note: man in Yarnell library heard more details on these fire dept emblem signs and gpsing all the mines—after one visit he said it is not for him…curious why???

        Another side note:
        Can you our normal folks who post here…state like this:

        Joy A Collura eyewitness to YHF; last civilian hikers to see the 20 GMHS on Weavers & avid hiker to Arizona and had been pioneering it since 2011.
        why I blog on IM? It is a healing tool a place for me to express how I feel after the horrific afternoon of 6-30-13. I have no placement of making movies or books nor have any agenda or angles…just do not like how its been glazed since the SAIR came out…

        I have an interested legal person (not James Belanger but he was very helpful in times we communicated earlier this year) as well asked for some back East person to peak here and it will help newcomer know WHO IS WHO…and why you keep coming back to I M?

        thank you.

        Reply

        • Also remember I have been on the laptop to have these kind of messages come up and delete all files on laptop so someone from day one has screwed with the files hence why I KEEP NOTHING near me Gary…no news on that person if in town or not—left message though.

          SEE MESSAGE ON SCREEN I GOT NOW AND PRIOR TIMES:

          !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
          What happened to your files ?
          All of your files were protected by a strong encryption with RSA-2048.
          More information about the encryption keys using RSA-2048 can be found here: ht tp ://en.wikipedia.o r g/wiki/RSA_(cryptosystem)

          What does this mean ?
          This means that the structure and data within your files have been irrevocably changed, you will not be able to work with them, read them or see them,
          it is the same thing as losing them forever, but with our help, you can restore them.

          How did this happen ?
          Especially for you, on our server was generated the secret key pair RSA-2048 – public and private.
          All your files were encrypted with the public key, which has been transferred to your computer via the Internet.
          Decrypting of your files is only possible with the help of the private key and decrypt program, which is on our secret server.

          What do I do ?
          Alas, if you do not take the necessary measures for the specified time then the conditions for obtaining the private key will be changed.
          If you really value your data, then we suggest you do not waste valuable time searching for other solutions because they do not exist.

          For more specific instructions, please visit your personal home page, there are a few different addresses pointing to your page below:
          1. h tt p://d jru34dnd.lgk749kch8ej.c o m/82B5BC7A3AAA3
          2. h tt p://ks53kc7s.td45hdrtabc23.c o m/82B5BC7A3AAA3
          3. ht tp s://alcov44uvcwkrend.onion.to/82B5BC7A3AAA3

          Reply

          • Joy,
            the message you get is because of Ransomware like the CryptoWall Virus. Basically they encrypt your files so you can’t get to them, then demand money to un-encrypt them. Googles what to do, but not sure how successful recovery of your files will be.

            …and after reading your stories, especially the animal ones, I think you might actually be an Angel sent to guide lost souls on this planet .

            Gary, Bob and WTKTT,
            I have a concern that every time here on IM (in PUBLIC) one of you points and says “Hell – I see a gaping hole in your plans to lock this thing down” (and there are a lot of holes), that THEY will move to plug them. And that’s the difference, everything done here by you is PUBLIC, no moving behind the scenes, no hiding away meeting minutes, or failing to publish your thoughts (like certain court records). This is a great experiment!

            The twists and turns of the memorial board/site/permission, I would expect to read in fiction. It’s so insular! Something smells, it smells bad!

            (Gary – you’re sounding more like Walter Sobchak with every post)

            Reply

        • I’ll check my email as soon as I get back from the 7-11 and maybe also Blakes LottaBurger.

          I’ve just been totally buried in this whole “Arizona State Parks” thing.

          Reply

      • Also remember I have been on the laptop to have these kind of messages come up and delete all files on laptop so someone from day one has screwed with the files hence why I KEEP NOTHING near me Gary…no news on that person if in town or not—left message though.

        SEE MESSAGE ON SCREEN I GOT NOW AND PRIOR TIMES:

        !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
        What happened to your files ?
        All of your files were protected by a strong encryption with RSA-2048.
        More information about the encryption keys using RSA-2048 can be found here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RSA_(cryptosystem)

        What does this mean ?
        This means that the structure and data within your files have been irrevocably changed, you will not be able to work with them, read them or see them,
        it is the same thing as losing them forever, but with our help, you can restore them.

        How did this happen ?
        Especially for you, on our server was generated the secret key pair RSA-2048 – public and private.
        All your files were encrypted with the public key, which has been transferred to your computer via the Internet.
        Decrypting of your files is only possible with the help of the private key and decrypt program, which is on our secret server.

        What do I do ?
        Alas, if you do not take the necessary measures for the specified time then the conditions for obtaining the private key will be changed.
        If you really value your data, then we suggest you do not waste valuable time searching for other solutions because they do not exist.

        For more specific instructions, please visit your personal home page, there are a few different addresses pointing to your page below:
        1. http://djru34dnd.lgk749kch8ej.com/82B5BC7A3AAA3
        2. http://ks53kc7s.td45hdrtabc23.com/82B5BC7A3AAA3
        3. https://alcov44uvcwkrend.onion.to/82B5BC7A3AAA3

        Reply

  77. Every time this discussion of locking out the Deployment Site come up My Hart hurts and I become very sad.
    That is not what Fire Memorial sites are about. They are about a place dedicated to the Fallen a place to study what happened and why. A place to evaluate lessons learned and to reflect on those that died there.
    I reflect on how long it took the Forest service to allow Crosses at the Rattle Snake Fire site 1953 till 2004. The Fire crews prior to that went there in the 100’s to discuss and study what happened way before any Crosses were installed. Now there is a full educational location across from the site and a hiking trail that goes from a parking lot to the site of the Crosses.
    The South Canyon Fire is the same why should the Yarnell hill fire be different?
    The Families should be proud to display the spot and allow all to come feel humble and understand what happened and reflect on the magnitude of the 19 that died a first time full Hot Shot Crew.
    The Film that was just shared by Marti on South Canyon is absolutely why this need to be an open site. Its where they Died its not a Grave site it is a site to reflect and go back over the 10 and 18 study Safety and how it helps in making decisions on Fires it is a reality site a reality check.
    It is State Park Lands now let it be used by all the Public not just a few.

    Reply

    • Well…I am not going to be as polite as Bob. In fact, I am going to be just a little bit bombastic. The Granite Mountain Hotshot Memorial State Park Board are OUT OF THEIR FUCKING MINDS! WTKTT is sending up the emergency flares and everybody had better start paying attention, including Arizona Governor Ducey and that collection of idiots they call the Arizona State Legislature.

      I intend to blog more about this later in the day since I just woke up, (it’s only a little after 9am so it’s pretty early for me to wake up on a Saturday, but then, everyday is a Saturday for me) but I want to start with this little gem.

      Stupid Governor Ducey is just about to have his rights taken away by that Arizona Road Lizard Crazy head of the Arizona State Parks Sue Black who that collection of idiots they call the Arizona State Legislature confirmed.

      There is no provision in the Boards plan to ALLOW THEM TO VISIT THE DEPLOYMENT SITE UNLESS THEY INVOKE SOME KIND OF ASSHOLE POLITICIAN EXEMPTJION FROM THE BOARDS CRAZY PROPOSSED RULES…ARE YOU FUCKING JOKING? Yesterday I was worried about Joy’s rights, today the plan is to take away almost everybody’s rights.

      WTKTT is absolutely right, somebody needs to step in and put some adult leaders on that fucking Board so it is not run by the private agenda’s of a few “Widows.”

      Last night I was talking about greater access to the White House for citizens, today I would like to point out there is greater access for the public (as in there IS access, as oppose to NO access) to the World Trade Center Memorial, the Oklahoma City Murrow Federal Building Memorial, the Pentagon Memorial and the Shanksville Memorial Site where Flight 93 that was full of American Hero’s was flown into the ground, just to name a few.

      You taxpaying Citizens of Arizona need to wake up and smell the coffee the Widows are brewing for you!

      Reply

      • I don’t think this second “Hail Mary Plan” (or maybe third or fourth or fifth, all things considered) is gonna work.

        I’ve been searching and searching all day for anything definitive regarding Arizona State Parks and “memorial parks,” and I haven’t found a thing. Apparently this is unprecedented.

        There is nothing nowhere, at least that I could find, that there are any rules that make what somebody calls an “Arizona State Memorial park” any different from the rules that apply to “regular” Arizona State Parks.

        Unless I missed something. (LOL like I did downstream a couple of times).

        There CAN be special rules regarding cemetaries, i.e. “memorial parks” but memorial is just in the name of the cemetary, and so far Arizona State Parks doesn’t own any “State Memorial Parks,” except for this new-fangled GMHS Memorial State Park.

        And, by the way, the original name brought to the State Parks Board was “Granite Mountain Hotshots State Park.”

        From the June 25,2015 Minutes of the Arizona State Parks Board:

        http://azstateparks.com/board/downloads/minutes/2015/ASPB_Minutes_06-24-15Final.pdf

        “F. BOARD ACTION ITEMS
        a. Consider for Approval pursuant to A.R.S. § 41-519.01 (C)(2) the
        Recommendation by the Yarnell Hill Memorial Site Board to name the Yarnell Hill Memorial Site the Granite Mountain Hotshots State Park.”

        Until this then happened:

        “Director Black introduced Deborah Pfingston who is on the Design subcommittee and mother of one of the Granite Mountain Hotshots. Amanda Marsh who is the wife of the Granite Mountain Supervisor suggested the families be contacted to submit appropriate names for the memorial.

        She said the families submitted names and voted on them. The Top 3 choices were Granite Mountain Hotshots State Park, Granite Mountain Hotshots Memorial Park and Granite Mountain Hotshots 19 Memorial Park. She said the families were honored to be asked to be given the opportunity to do this.

        Ms. Daggett asked if the families had objections to Memorial Park or State Park. Ms. Pfingston said it was almost a dead tie for either choice.

        Director Black said this would be the first Memorial Park in the system. Ms. Daggett said she would like to see State Park in the name. Chairman Cardin concurred.

        Mr. Everett motioned to name the Park the “Granite Mountain Hotshots Memorial State Park.” Ms. Daggett seconded the motion. The motion passed.”

        So I can’t find anything that says how this PUBLIC park should be allowed to be managed any differently from any other PUBLIC Arizona State Park, as in some kind of holy sacred ground that some family members think they should be able to control the PUBLIC’S access to, just because they decided to tack the name “Memorial” onto it.

        There’s nothing like that in the set-up of the Arizona State Parks system. NADA.

        As Bob wrote, it it NOT a cemetery.

        And that FACT matters.

        Reply

        • Oh, and just to FURTHER set the record straight.

          From Arizona State Parks June 30, 2015 Press Release,

          “Granite Mountain Hotshots Memorial State Park Officially Purchased by Arizona State Parks ”

          http://azstateparks.com/press/2015/PR_06-30-15.html

          ““This site will serve as a lasting memorial to the brave hotshots who gave their lives to protect their community,” said Governor Ducey. “While we can never truly repay our debt to these heroes, we can – and should – honor them every day. Arizona is proud to offer the public a space where we can pay tribute to them, their families and all of our firefighters and first responders for generations to come.”

          Arizona State Parks Executive Director Sue Black said, “Arizona State Parks is proud and humbled to add Granite Mountain Hotshots Memorial State Park to our family.” Black, who concurrently serves as Chairman of the Yarnell Hill Memorial Site Board, continued, “We look forward to working together to open this Park to the public.””

          Nobody has PUBLICLY said ANYTHING about closing it down to the PUBLIC.

          All the machinations going on inside the Yarnell Hill Memorial Site Board (including probably even more inside the invisible missing meetings minutes) as well as inside the heads of “The Widows”™ notwithstanding.

          This dog ain’t gonna hunt when it goes PUBLIC.

          Now a confession. In July I bought a white “BE BETTER”/”Yarnell19” bracelet, and have been proudly wearing it ever since. I took it off this weekend during these conversations. And, oh yes, the mysterious rash on my right arm, where I was wearing it, disappeared, when I did.

          Namaste.

          Reply

        • Oh, and just a further little note.

          While digging back into this, I found myself reading the comments in the Prescott Daily Courier articles regarding this purchase and designation.

          They weren’t too supportive, to say the least. Of course they weren’t written by wildland firefighters who understand the TRADITIONS and REASONS for setting apart these kinds of sites.

          But still. When these people find out that their tax-payer dollars are most likely gonna be going to maintaining this “Memorial State Park” that is, as far as I can see, ESSENTIALLY completely closed to the public (except for the access trail, which is still on State Trust Land) they’re gonna be even MORE pissed off.

          They’re ALREADY calling it “politicians using this tragedy to milk the public’s dollars to exploit this already grim enough tragedy to further their political fortunes, oh, and also. the families are doing it too.”

          Reply

          • Correction.

            I wrote: “, as far as I can see, ESSENTIALLY completely closed to the public (except for the access trail, which is still on State Trust Land) .

            That’s where the crunch comes. It’s not ESSENTIALLY completely closed to the public, given all that I’ve written above.

            It’s just that, via the minutes (or at least the ones that have been published) of the Yarnell Hill Memorial Board indicate that that outcome is exactly what they are trying to accomplish.

            Reply

          • You have it right. Sad thing is that those we have to enforce these ridiculous mandates do so. We need both law enforcement and juries to follow common sense and not unjust laws.

            Reply

        • Maybe I am kin to Ms. Black…I am half black.
          Really.
          My mom is BLACK and my dad is GILLIGAN.
          My mother’s maiden name.

          Reply

        • And I have to say, this whole google search and ramble of mine is connected to WTKTT writing downstream, on SEPTEMBER 28, 2015 AT 10:18 PM, regarding the Two-Step Plan to Control Access:

          “1. Granite Mountain Hotshots Memorial State Park Report from Arizona State Parks.

          – Arizona State Parks Deputy Director Kelly Moffitt reported on the successful June 30th auction at the courthouse in Prescott. He stated that the property is now a “MEMORIAL State Park’”. Also, that it is Arizona State Parks desire to be sensitive to all project stakeholders including the families, local communities, and the fire fighting communities. Arizona State Parks Board has voted to call this park the Granite Mountain Hotshots Memorial State Park, and it is Arizona State Parks interest to help control access to the fatality site as desired by the stakeholders. Arizona State Parks Development Section will help review of all plans and provide support to the Board and Design Sub-Committee. Arizona Department of Administration will review construction plans. Arizona Department of Transportation is moving forward with their support of the project.

          What I am saying in all of this, and in response to that, is that I haven’t been able to find ANYWHERE any precedent for this or any legal or statutory support for deeming that, by just attaching the word “MEMORIAL” to the name of an Arizona State Park, that gives ANYONE any kind of different and unprecedented power to “help control access to the fatality site as desired by the stakeholders.”
          “

          Reply

          • Marti… see this new parent comment up above…

            http://www.investigativemedia.com/yarnell-hill-fire-chapter-xvi/#comment-309271

            The actual legislation that was PASSED and signed into LAW appears to give this Arizona PUBLIC “Yarnell Site Board” the ‘authority’ to decide who can or cannot ‘Visit the Memorial’.

            The ORIGINAL legislation, as introduced to the Arizona House of Representatives on February 11, 2014, had NO SUCH LANGUAGE or provisions in it about this Board having any kind of decision making power with regards to ‘permissions to visit the memorial’.

            It was State Representative Karen Fann ( Prescott ) ALONE who then added an AMENDMENT to the legislation adding that ‘responsibility’ to this proposed PUBLIC “Yarnell Memorial Site Board”.

            It is also known that at this time… there was this “small group of widows” who had Karen Fann’s ear.

            That ‘amendment’ that Karen Fann ‘added’ to the original legislation actually survived in both the House and the Senate and made it into the final Bill signed by the Governor.

            Reply

    • Exactly Bob–We live within a half mile of the site. There are signs at the entrance of Glen Isla on the public street and just off Highway 89 stating no access to the Incident Site. Well that is a crock since you can enter that way–although Helms won’t let you through his property and I can well understand that—but you can also go up to Candy Lane just above my Rock Cabin and legally cross private land to come in above Helms without disturbing them nor having to cross their personal property. There are a few people in the area that do not mind your crossing their private land to get up to the two track. Alternatively you can do all State land if you go down to where the white elephant is painted on 89 between Yarnell and Congress along 89–you have to be going down the hill to see it better, although I think you might see it well enough going up. The up and down roads are separate on 89. You would need to pull off the highway maybe a quarter mile down from the elephant–on the left is a graded out place between the two up and down highways. If you hike straight up from where the elephant is you will be on state land all the way to the two track. Do be a good hiker and in good shape since you will be hopping boulders and on a very steep incline.

      Yes, it is completely unconstitutional to allow certain private parties to control state and federal lands simply because relatives died there. That as you say is not their grave yard and if the country allows that we are looking forward to setting aside properties for private use every time a particular person or group dies in an area. Truthfully this should be contested or else everyone that looses a person be treated equally. If a Cop or Fireman is now deceased due to whatever reason we would need to declare that area of death as a memorial site with no access unless some Captain or Fire Chief in charge determines who he will allow to access and if they have proper credentials and relationship to the deceased.

      Consider that now because we have plenty of sleeper cells in the US, we will likely be setting aside many more of these sites. Spots the common citizen used to be able to access will be off limits. Well in fact all state land here in Arizona at least is off limits to the common citizen unless he pays a robbery fee to the State of Arizona so he can walk across this land. Most do not know this law and when they do find it out are angered that such thing could have happened in this USA. As a member of two veterans organizations I have found that most will tell you that it is a bull shit law that they would never pay to walk on public lands. Yet the Sheriff Department and certain State land officials will site you if you do not have that pass and you will then be robbed of a greater fee and incarcerated if the judge decides he doesn’t like your attitude.

      Someone will say Sonny if you don’t like such a garbage law then why don’t you challenge it or vote in someone to change it. Well old Sonny does not have the thousands to challenge such a law and voting Republican or Democrat is just about equal–we are in the New World Order of change and that means let the wild fires burn and there are about 6 billion too many people on this planet according to our new think. Maybe they are right, but I wonder how they are going to get everybody cooped up into urban areas and then who will be the 144 thousand chosen ones? I think that is a given number in most churches even though that was decided 2,000 years ago. One thing is make it too expensive to walk on public lands and impossible to camp for any length of time. Bring in more sleeper cell types to help reduce future populations–it has been said by CIA and FBI that it is a matter of time before these people will do great damage to our cities. Makes sense since backward countries like Pakistan already have nukes and plenty of the likes of them hate our country.

      Makes sense to protect our young men–especially those like wild fire men. We might need them — if they do not become too indoctrinated in the new think.

      Reply

  78. This is a response to everything that WTKTT has reported below. It looks to me like Joy’s rights will soon be a moot point. Amanda Marsh is getting ready with the full cooperation of a lot of people who have guilty consciences, to take away almost everybody’s rights to visit the Arizona State Park they are paying for. God Bless America. As we keep saying, you can’t make this stuff up.

    Reply

    • Well…I am sitting here watching White House (which I have visited) Down on TV and it occurred to me that there is going to be greater access to the White House for the average tax paying citizen than there will be to the Granite Mountain Hotshot Memorial State Park if what WTKTT has written below comes to pass.

      Reply

      • It’s been a long day on airplanes and punch-drunk tired… but I can’t help wondering how in the hell the people who want to ‘lock this down’ think they have any chance in hell of actually pulling it off?

        I mean… what would be the REALITY here?

        You hike 2+ miles uphill and you ’emerge’ on top of the ridge at the point where that ‘alternate escape route’ took that turn to the east and headed towards the Boulder Springs Ranch.

        Bzzzt. Still won’t be able to see the ‘little white crosses’ from there.

        So now you are ‘allowed’ to schlep farther north ( but only on the two-track )… to what?… the spot where Sonny found the pink tape/flagging?

        Once the manzanita grows back you won’t be able to see jack-shit from THERE, either.

        So they figure out a way for the ‘public’ to stay on the ridge so they can look down and ‘see’ the little white crosses from somewhere up there.

        Then what?

        Is that where the large-than-life-size statue of the lookout-they-needed-to-stay-alive is actually going to be?

        Then what?

        Will there be a little BIO-SENSOR Kiosk there that you put your thumb into ( or a little glass jar with cotton swabs for the inside of your cheek )… and then they do a DNA scan and the kiosk checks it against a database of DNA samples from anyone on the planet who *might* be related to one of the men who burned to death?

        OR… you have to scan your ‘red-card’ like it’s a gas-pump card reader and it will know if your red-card is still ‘active’ and that qualifies you as a “member of the firefighting community”?

        It’s more than laughable.

        It’s just SAD.

        Just make it a nice, respectful place to visit… and try to find a way to keep the $100,000 ( a piece? ) bronze statues from disappearing from the Arizona boondock… and call it a day.

        Reply

        • I’m just gonna leave this article here from history – about 500 ramblers taking part in a Mass Trespass, that changed a whole lot of laws here in the UK;
          https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mass_trespass_of_Kinder_Scout

          So hypothetically speaking, once the memorial site is in place, what would happen to someone who was say from…outta-town, ya know, maybe another country, perhaps didn’t know any different, wandered up to the deployment site? What would/could actually happen to them?

          It just doesn’t make any sense… and I mean no disrespect at all, but WTC Memorial Pools don’t have a two mile exclusion zone around them, it’s there for everyone, a real tribute to those that were killed.

          Reply

          • Reply to Otis post on September 29, 2015 at 4:52 am

            >> Otis said…
            >>
            >> So hypothetically speaking, once the memorial site is in
            >> place, what would happen to someone who was say
            >> from…outta-town, ya know, maybe another country,
            >> perhaps didn’t know any different, wandered up to
            >> the deployment site?
            >>
            >> What would/could actually happen to them?

            Good question.

            It’s an interesting legal question as to whether any member of the ‘public’ can ever actually be accused of ‘trespassing’ on a piece of land that they are ( legally speaking ) part-owner of. A PUBLIC park.

            The way things work on this side of the pond… when an area of land is purchased with PUBLIC money and becomes any kind of ‘State’ ( or ‘Federal’ ) level ‘Park’… a different level of ‘law enforcement’ is involved.

            There are ‘Park Rangers’ who are the ‘police’ for ‘Parks’. They have the same powers of arrest, they carry weapons, but they wear different color UNIFORMS than the regular Police do.

            I don’t live in Arizona… but in MY State… if someone makes a call to the regular Police department and says something like…

            “Hey… I was just looking through my binoculars and I think I see someone out walking in the State Park in a place where they aren’t supposed to be walking…. ”

            The local Police dispatcher would ( hopefully politely ) say…

            “That’s not our problem. Call the State Park Rangers”.

            Those ‘Park Rangers’ can ( if justified ) certainly ask anyone to ‘leave’ a Public Park… but they better have a good reason. As for whether they ( the Park Rangers, not regular Police ) can ever outright ‘arrest’ a member of the public for being in the ‘wrong place’ at a PUBLIC park… that’s the legally interesting part.

            That is why there was (apparently) the following ‘discussion’ at the July 31, 2015 meeting of this Arizona PUBLIC “Yarnell Hill Memorial Site” Board.

            The ‘minutes’ from the meeting are piss-poor and almost seem to be trying to ‘obfuscate’ what the discussion was really about… but here is that somewhat ‘ominous’ statement in the July 31, 2015 minutes of the PUBLIC Arizona State ‘Yarnell Memorial Site Board’…

            It says… ( as part of the ‘Action Items’ session of the meeting )

            —————————————————————
            Chairman Black opened up general discussion among the Board members.

            * Board members discussed multi agency partnerships, and that the family’s needs and wants for the memorial site were continuous monitored and met.
            —————————————————————-

            Sounds pretty innocent, yes?

            But break down this piss-poor note-taking and it says something different.

            * ‘multi-agency partnerships’.

            Normally… all the ‘security’ of an Arizona State park is required to be enforced by duly employed ‘Park Rangers’. That includes reports of ‘trespassing’ or invalid access to certain areas.

            Well… talking about ‘multi-agency parnterships’ could very well mean they are acknowledging the fact that there will be no permanent park rangers at this ‘Memorial Site’… so they are going to need ‘multi-agency’ agreements with the Yavapai County Sheriff’s office and/or the Yarnell Fire Department to keep this site ‘locked down’ they way they really WANT to.

            * the family’s needs and wants for the memorial site were
            * continuous(ly) monitored and met.

            In other words… the meeting apparently took the turn towards “we are gonna need multi-agency law enforcement agreements in place in order to make sure no one but family members ( or firefighters ) are gaining full access to this site”

            So this discussion is happening on July 31, 2015 BEFORE Amanda Marsh even ‘launches’ on her little UNSUPERVISED ‘polling’ mission of the family members.

            They ( the 8 Board members who actually bothered to show up on July 31 ) seem to be ‘assuming’ that the final decision would be some level of ‘lock down’ on the site… and they are gonna need ‘multi ( law enforcement ) agency” agreements to even have a chance at pulling off a ‘lock down’ and to ( exact quote ) “continuously monitor and meet the family’s requirements”.

            This is a frickin’ STATE PARK we are talking about…

            …and THEY still seem to be talking about how much ‘law enforcement’ support and ‘cooperation’ it’s gonna take to do ‘lock downs’ on this STATE PARK.

            >> Otis also said…
            >>
            >> It just doesn’t make any sense… and I mean no disrespect
            >> at all, but WTC Memorial Pools don’t have a two mile
            >> exclusion zone around them, it’s there for everyone, a real
            >> tribute to those that were killed.

            It seems to make sense to this “small group of widows” that has always been driving this ‘Deployment Site Memorial’ effort.

            First they were going to try to do this ‘lock down’ on the site by purchasing it with their own money… but THEN they discovered what a great country this is and that they could still pursue their original agenda without having to spend a dime of their own money.

            Just use taxpayer dollars to achieve the same GOALS.

            In their minds… they owe almost NOTHING to ‘the public’.

            So that fact that you ( as an taxpaying citizen ) were the one paying the salaries of those men and, indeed, paying for investigations into their deaths and have ALSO now paid for the land that this ‘State Park’ sits on means very little to these “widows”.

            As for your ‘hypothetical’ “How is anyone supposed to know?”…

            That’s also a VERY good question.

            If this ‘small group of widows’ has their way… are they planning to spend even MORE taxpayer dollars for actual SIGNAGE that says something like…

            **** !!! WARNING !!!! ***
            **** !!! RESTRICTED ACCESS BEYOND THIS POINT !!! ***
            **** !!! IF YOU ARE NOT A FAMILY MEMBER OR A !!! ***
            **** !!! FIREFIGHTER… STOP… DO NOT PROCEED !! **
            **** !!! YOU HAVE BEEN WARNED !! ***

            And if Deborah Pfingston has her way ( she is actually ON the design subcommittee that will apparently be designing and purchasing all the ‘signage’ for the area )… the !! WARNING !! sign will also say…

            **** !!! PS… IF YOU EVEN CONSIDER YOURSELF TO BE !!! ***
            **** !!! SOME KIND OF ‘PSYCHIC’ OR ‘MEDIUM’… PLEASE !!! **
            **** !!! LEAVE RIGHT NOW… BECAUSE YOU ARE ALREADY !!! ***
            **** !!! CLOSER THAN BOTH GOD AND LEVITICUS !!! ***
            **** !!! WANT YOU TO BE. !!! ***

            Reply

            • WWTKTT said:It’s an interesting legal question as to whether any member of the ‘public’ can ever actually be accused of ‘trespassing’ on a piece of land that they are ( legally speaking ) part-owner of. A PUBLIC park.

              MY REPLY: technically Trespassing officer for state land said as it is not properly fenced or signed ever so many feet WITH the statute numbers anyone can cross and would be hard to have a case on trespassing when its not properly signed and fenced— but I see how shady the law has been and unjust so I am not testing it

              Reply

            • WWTKTT- good question to you. How can a town fire chief Chief Ben Palm have anything at all to do with STATE PARK LAND- he works for the town not the state yet is in charge supposedly of who is able to visit the deployment site.

              Reply

          • We are beginning to have the same situation as that Kinder Scout thing that was in England. Thanks for the report. Well it seems that the reason those lands were set aside was so the only the wealthy could hunt in those areas denying the common man an equal right. Here it is similar where only privileged groups are allowed access–a memorial site that should be open to all.

            Thanks for the reference Otis–and if there was one guy that I considered a hero it was that young Zack Ashoor who knew the men that died when he visited with them in the Pubs. He was trying to build a very light respiratory system for fire fighters to save lives. He is now deceased but he told me–no one denies me to go down there and pay my respects to those men–I will stand before any judge–then he went down to where they died and paid his respects and wept with many whom have felt the pain of their loss. To deny the common person that right to visit the site and pay respects is alike what you had in Kinder Scout–privileged groups allowed access to public lands while the common man is denied access–a no no in the American free society.

            Reply

            • Amanda Marsh I wonder what your real reason for attacking Joy was. I challenge you to come on this site and tell us the truth as to why you want to use tax payer ,money to isolate this spot and 320 acres of state land to commemorate the worst fiasco in fire fighting history considering that your husband led 18 young men into a trap to end their lives, We hope he and Steed did not but up to now that is what evidence shows.

              Reply

              • Bingo!!!

                Joy has NEVER said ANYTHING negative here AT ALL about Eric.

                She’s been the most forgivingest of mostly everybody.

                I always felt, until this summer’s twists and turns, that MY hunt for the truth was in support of THE FAMILIES hunt for the truth, something they said over and over again was the goal of the lawsuits as opposed to the money.

                It’s increasingly looking to me that the families, or at least the most vocal and Type A members of the families (and I LOVE ambitious women) have been, or become, more interested and invested in protecting the angellic heroic MYTH that that awful mean incomprehensibly inscrutably evil FIRE just somehow randomly turned itself around and aimed itself at those totally powerless and hapless heroes and burned them alive, in accordance with some divinely implemented plan to bring them up to heaven to, forever, look over them and protect them.

                Hmmmm, maybe that same “something else happened?” that Holly suggested?

                My brother got himself killed doing something stupid and almost got a bunch of other people killed with him, also, by doing it. I was fricken thirteen years old at the time, and even I was able to discern that and learn to live with it and learn from it.

                Some people talked about that tragedy as “the Will of God.” I think they were doing that to “comfort” us, but I knew, even at that age, that that was complete BS. And so did my family. Even though my mom went completely ape-shit psychotic in the wake of it all.

                We never blamed God for any of it. We also didn’t blame the Scoutmaster, who was actually somewhat culpable in the whole scenario, much less sue him (something lots of people thought we should do). I was just raised that way.

                My brother was a freakin’ Eagle Scout who should have known BETTER!!!!

                And that’s how I see this. I’ve always looked at this with that in mind. As I have written periodically.

                I can be both critical of Marsh and Steed and also weep over their ghastly deaths in this complete cluster-f*ck of a terribly managed fire that should have been put out by 4PM on Saturday.

                I can be both critical of Marsh and Steed and also weep over their ghastly deaths in this complete cluster-f*ck of a terribly managed fire in which, apparently (no-one has proved me wrong yet) an Operations Supervisor was involved in a last-ditch Hail Mary Plan that included the Granite Mountain Hotshots coming down out of their huge in-the-black Safe Zone thru a chimney full of explosive fuels with a by-then Extreme Fire Behavior wildfire headed directly at it.

                I wonder where I stand in the “Acceptable Person” vs the “Unacceptable Person” gradient.

                I’m starting to think that anybody who doesn’t see this fire as Angelic FireFighters vs Evil Unpredictable Fire is in the “Unacceptable Person” checkbox.

                And that makes me really really really really sad.

                And even more sad because Joy hasn’t even been critical of Eric at all. Not even remotely.

                I don’t think “the families” are looking for the truth anymore.

                Reply

    • Until this PUBIC Arizona Board finally gets around to obeying the laws governing Arizona PUBLIC Boards and publishing the minutes from their meetings within the 72 hour time limit… we will have to wait and see what the results were for Amanda Marsh’s BOARD APPROVED little ‘private’ UNSUPERVISED ‘polling’ of the ‘family members’ ( whatever the heck that actually means ).

      It really does sound like Amanda Marsh ( who may have been one of the “small group of widows that originally lobbied State Rep. Karen Fann to help them get the land for themselves ) is supposed to just ‘report back’ to this Arizona PUBLIC Board with a ‘vote count’ ( that she obtained… ??? how ??? ) and that will end up deciding if the PUBLIC ever gets to do anything but schlep for 2 miles just to stand next to a larger-than-life-size bronze statue of a ‘Wildland lookout’ and say…

      “Oh look, honey… down there. See those little white crosses? That must be where they actually burned to death.”

      I also keep wondering what this ‘larger-than-life-size statue of the “Lookout-they-needed-to-stay-alive-that-day” is actually going to LOOK like?

      I mean… is it going to look like that famous statue of an Indian lookout with his palm up to his forehead to shade the sun while he ‘looks in the distance’?

      Or will the statue be “slinging the weather” and the “interpretive signage” will explain what the hell that means?

      If this goes down with Arizona State Parks fully behind “no one but family members or members of the firefighting community are allowed to come down off the high-ridge two-track and get anywhere near the deployment site”…

      …then the “small group of widows” has succeeded in getting exactly what THEY wanted to accomplish by purchasing the land themselves… but now they didn’t have to spend a dime of their own money and the taxpayers of Arizona have fully funded their original GOAL(S).

      Not only should Amanda Marsh NOT be allowed to take this little ‘survey’ completely on her own, and without anyone even checking how she is even ‘asking the question’…

      …if she really is one of those “widows” that originally ‘lobbied’ State Representative Karen Fann to put riders in a proposed piece of legislation stacking the deck in their favor to obtain a piece of State Trust Land…

      …she should have NEVER been allowed to serve on that PUBLIC BOARD at all.

      That’s just classic “Conflict of Interest” that should always prevent someone from serving on a PUBLIC BOARD that is to decide what happens on the same piece of land YOU were going to try and buy for yourself.

      Input into the process ( as a family member )… yes.
      Board member influence on decision making… no.

      Reply

      • Followup…

        >> On September 28, 2015 at 11:42 pm WantsToKnowTheTruth said…
        >>
        >> Until this PUBIC Arizona Board finally gets around to obeying the laws…

        That really was an unintentional TYPO… but I’ve had worse ones.

        Reply

      • WTKKT Well said. Thanks and that is exactly how the situation would be, A simple rock mound where visitors cast a rock would build a memorial that each person could remember them by. Joy and I started one along the trail going up and left a message if you pass place a stone in remembrance of the men. It was a fitting way to show respect and although that monument is high up the mountain many left stones as they passed. Some left stones with messages on them. Over time the monument would build and be seen high above the manzanita–that is if all are allowed to pay their respects.

        Reply

  79. Reply to Gary Olson post on September 28, 2015 at 3:41 pm

    ( Continued from a conversation started down below )…

    >> Gary Olson said…
    >>
    >> Sounds to me like the “devil is in the details” on this one.
    >> How do you write a rule vague enough to let all of the people you want to get in
    >> by default…get in, but yet specific enough to keep all of the people you don’t want
    >> to go in…out?

    I have a better answer to your question than I did few hours ago.

    I have discovered ‘the plan’… and it’s in the minutes of the meetings of this Arizona State PUBLIC ‘Yarnell Hill Memorial Site’ Board.

    It’s basically just TWO simple steps…

    1. Get Arizona State Parks to officially designate this State Park as a ‘Memorial Park’.
    ( Already DONE. See below ). That automatically gives them the ‘authoritay’ to make decisions about design and access that supersede ‘regular State Park rules’.

    2. Punt the decision about who is allowed to ‘access’ or ‘get near’ what to the families of those being ‘memorialized’. ( Also ALREADY DONE. See below ).

    More detail about this is down in a ‘Reply’ to this message… but in order to understand that ‘Reply’ better… let me take a short LEFT TURN and talk about the minutes from the July 31, 2015 ‘Yarnell Memorial Site Board’ meeting.

    The online page where all the ‘Agendas’ and the ‘Minutes’ of any/all meetings of the Arizona State Parks public “Yarnell Hill Memorial Site” Board are supposed to appear is still HERE…

    http://azstateparks.com/committees/Yarnell.html

    Here is a ‘rundown’ on which meetings have had their ‘minutes’ posted at this point… and which meetings are still MISSING ‘minutes’…

    Agenda 09/18/15, ( STILL NO MINUTES POSTED, EVEN THOUGH MORE THAN 72 HOURS )
    Agenda 07/31/15, Minutes 07/31/15
    Agenda 05/29/15, ( STILL NO MINUTES POSTED, EVEN THOUGH APPROVED 07/31/15 )
    Agenda 04/10/15, Minutes 04/10/15
    Agenda 02/27/15, Minutes 02/27/15
    Agenda 01/06/15, Minutes 01/06/15
    Agenda 11/24/14, Minutes 11/24/14
    Exec Session 11/24/14, ( NO MINUTES POSTED, PRIVATE SESSION )

    NOTE: The very first thing this Arizona public Board did when it first met officially was to go into (private) ‘Executive Session’ to discuss whether they really had to fulfill those obligations under Arizona Law to actually have to invite the public to the meetings and also publish minutes from the meetings. Obviously someone who knew the law told them “YES, you do” on both counts… since they have included invitations for the public to attend the meetings AND have been (eventually) publishing most minutes from most of the meetings ever since… but still not within compliance with the laws governing Arizona PUBLIC Boards.

    ** THE JULY 31, 2015 MEETING

    8 Board members were present, 6 were absent.

    That still gave them a ‘quorum’ and the right to VOTE on things even without the 6 other Board members present… and they made some pretty important decisions WITHOUT them.

    Here is the proof that the ‘minutes’ for the May 29, 2015 were, in fact, APPROVED by the Board itself. That means they are no longer considered even ‘Draft Minutes’ and should have been subject to immediate publication…

    ——————————————————————————————
    C. INTRODUCTION OF BOARD MEMBERS
    Role was taken.
    Board Members Present
    Chairman Sue Black; Senator Steve Pierce; Representative Karen Fann; Dan Fraijo;
    Amanda Marsh; Jeff Whitney; Lenora Nelson; Chuck Tidey
    Board Members Absent
    Ret. Chief Darrell Willis; Chief Ben Palm; Mayor Marlin Kuykendall; Brendan
    McDonough; John Flynn; Yavapai County Supervisor Rowle Simmons

    D. ACTION ITEMS
    1. Approve the Minutes of the May 29, 2015 Meeting of the Yarnell Hill Memorial Site Board.
    Motion: Representative Fann moved to approve the minutes of the May 29, 2015
    meeting. Amanda Marsh seconded. Unanimous approval.
    ——————————————————————————————

    So even though Arizona Law states a Public Board must NOT wait until the minutes of a meeting are approved before those minutes are to posted publicly… and even though the Board ‘approved’ the May 29, 2015 meeting TWO MONTHS later on July 31, 2015…

    …those May 29, 2015 meeting minutes are STILL NOT POSTED on the Arizona State Parks Website ( a full FOUR MONTHS after that original May meeting ).

    Is there something in the May 29, 2015 minutes, specifically, that the members of the “Yarnell Hill Memorial Site Board” just don’t want the public to see?

    After 4 months… it’s simply another ‘Double Eye’ situation.

    Either it’s (total) ‘Incompetence’… or it’s (totally) ‘Intentional’.

    ** OTHER ‘ACTION ITEMS’ DURING THE JULY 31, 2015 MEETING…
    ——————————————————————————————
    2. Consider approval of the following design components as presented by the Yarnell Hill Memorial Site Board Design Sub-Committee:

    Mike King presented the 4 separate design components:

    NOTE: Mike King is NOT an actual ‘Board Member’. He was ‘appointed’ by the Board to be the design subcommittee co-chair. Mike King is a retired Prescott National Forest supervisor. The ACTUAL (entire) ‘Design subcommitte’ is…

    Co-Chair: Jeff Whitney, Arizona State Forester.
    Co-Chair: Mike King, Prescott National Forest Supervisor ( Retired ).
    Board member: Chuck Tidey, Yarnell Recovery Group Chairman.
    Board member: Darrell Willis, Former Prescott Fire AND Wildland Division Chief.
    Member (by invitation): Pete Gordon, Prescott National Forest Fire Staff Officer.
    Member (by invitation): Deborah Pfingston, Andrew Ashcraft’s mother.

    FROM THE MINUTES – FINAL DESIGN ELEMENTS…

    * Trailhead to include interpretive signage and a bronze statue of a sawyer and a swamper at 1.25 scale ratio. Statue design cost estimates are $120,000 each and timeframe for completion could be 15-18 months.

    * Trail Signage to include 19 interpretive signs with biographies for each of the 19 fallen hotshots. Each biography will feature 170 words and a photo of the fallen.

    * Observation Site to include a bronze statue of a lookout hotshot crewmember at 1.25 scale ratio, a metal shade structure, and interpretive signage.

    * Fatality Site; to include (19) 40” x 21” white granite crosses, 19 gabion walls, fatality site interpretive signage, a rusted metal wall with the Granite Mountain Hotshots logo inscribed on it, and seating benches. The area the 19 hotshots cleared will remain cleared and maintained and will be defined with boulders and landscaping.
    ——————————————————————————————

    So there really ARE going to be at least THREE ‘larger-than-life-size’ BRONZE STATUES at ‘the site’…. and one of them really IS going to be a ‘larger-than-life-size’ statue of a Wildland Hotshot LOOKOUT…

    …even though the fact remains that if they had actually HAD a REAL (human) LOOKOUT that day… they probably would have not died at all.

    ** WHAT’S ARE ‘GABION WALLS’?

    From Wikipedia…
    —————————————————————————————————-
    A gabion (from Italian gabbione meaning “big cage”; from Italian gabbia and Latin cavea meaning “cage”) is a cage, cylinder, or box filled with rocks, concrete, or sometimes sand and soil for use in civil engineering, road building, military applications and landscaping.

    The most common civil engineering use of gabions was refined and patented by Gaetano Maccaferri in the late 1800s in Sacerno, Emilia Romagna and used to stabilize shorelines, stream banks or slopes against erosion. Other uses include retaining walls, temporary flood walls, silt filtration from runoff, for small or temporary/permanent dams, river training, or channel lining.[2] They may be used to direct the force of a flow of flood water around a vulnerable structure.

    A GABION WALL is a retaining wall made of stacked stone-filled gabions tied together with wire. Gabion walls are usually battered (angled back towards the slope), or stepped back with the slope, rather than stacked vertically.
    —————————————————————————————————-

    There’s a constant ‘erosion’ concern out there at the exact spot where they died, so these ’19 Gabion Walls’ being mentioned will probably play a role in trying to protect the actual site of the fatalities from ‘runoff’ and ‘erosion’.

    ** A METAL WALL?

    “… a rusted metal wall with the Granite Mountain Hotshots logo inscribed on it”

    No detailed information about this in the minutes.

    A ‘metal wall’ around WHAT? How high?… and for what purpose?

    It’s pretty obvious that Mike King must have had some ‘drawings’ or ‘renderings’ with him as he was doing this ‘presentation’… but no such documents have been published yet.

    ** INTERPRETIVE SIGNAGE?

    It’s going to literally be “all over the place”… but no word yet on who is going to AUTHOR this ‘interpretive signage’… or what ‘approval’ process is going to take place.

    If this is also up to the ‘Design Subcommittee’… then obviously both Darrell Willis and Deborah Pfingston will be supplying ‘input’ as to what all this ‘interpretive signage’ is supposed to say.

    ** DONE DEAL

    So the ‘design’ seems to be ‘set’ now ( as detailed above )… and Jeff Whitney made it ‘official’ at this meeting with the following ‘motions’… which were all UNANIMOUSLY approved ( even though only 8 out of the 14 Board members were actually attending this meeting )…

    Motion: Jeff Whitney moved to have Arizona State Parks issue an RFQ ( Request For Quote ) for 2 bronze sculptures as presented by the Design Sub-Committee. Lenora Nelson seconded the motion. Unanimous approval.

    Motion: Jeff Whitney moved to have the implementation of each of the 4 design components dependent on prioritization and the ability to raise the funds. Lenora Nelson seconded the motion. Unanimous approval.

    ( Continued next ‘Reply’ )…

    Reply

    • ( Continued from previous message )…

      ** THE TWO-STEP PLAN TO CONTROL ACCESS…

      The same minutes for the July 31, 2015 meeting of this PUBLIC “Yarnell Hill Memorial Site” Board contain the details about how they are going to go about ‘limiting access’ to certain parts of this Arizona State PUBLIC Park to certain people… OR ‘allowing’ it for certain ‘others’.

      As mentioned above… it’s basically just TWO simple steps…

      1. Get Arizona State Parks to officially designate this State Park as a ‘Memorial Park’. ( Already DONE. See below ). That automatically gives them the ‘authoritay’ to make decisions about design and access that supersede ‘regular State Park rules’.

      2. Punt the decision about who is allowed to ‘access’ or ‘get near’ what to the families of those being ‘memorialized’. ( Also ALREADY DONE. See below ).

      According to whatever ‘minutes’ we can see so far establish… it is still not a GIVEN at all that ANY ‘members of the public’ will be allowed to get anywhere near the actual ‘deployment site’ at this new Arizona State Park.

      It is still being DECIDED if that will happen… or NOT.

      ** STEP NUMBER ONE ( OF JUST TWO STEPS )…
      **
      ** ARIZONA STATE PARKS HAS AGREED TO HELP CONTROL ACCESS
      ** TO THE ACTUAL DEPLOYMENT AREA ‘AS DESIRED BY THE FAMILIES’.
      ** AND ‘THE FIREFIGHTING COMMUNITY’.
      **
      ** THE ‘PUBLIC’ IS LOW ON THE LIST.

      The following is ‘verbatim’ from the July 31, 2015 meeting ‘minutes’…

      ———————————————————————————
      E. DISCUSSION ITEMS

      1. Granite Mountain Hotshots Memorial State Park Report from Arizona State Parks.

      – Arizona State Parks Deputy Director Kelly Moffitt reported on the successful June 30th auction at the courthouse in Prescott. He stated that the property is now a “MEMORIAL State Park'”. Also, that it is Arizona State Parks desire to be sensitive to all project stakeholders including the families, local communities, and the fire fighting communities. Arizona State Parks Board has voted to call this park the Granite Mountain Hotshots Memorial State Park, and it is Arizona State Parks interest to help control access to the fatality site as desired by the stakeholders. Arizona State Parks Development Section will help review of all plans and provide support to the Board and Design Sub-Committee. Arizona Department of Administration will review construction plans. Arizona Department of Transportation is moving forward with their support of the project.
      ————————————————————————————

      So there is ‘Step Number ONE’ of ‘The Plan’ all signed / sealed / delivered.

      The Arizona State Parks BOARD has ALREADY voted that this will be a ‘specially designated’ ‘Memorial Park’ and they are totally behind the ‘Family Members’ ( and the ‘Firefighting Community ) deciding who gets to access what at this (sic: public) Arizona State Park.

      ** STEP NUMBER TWO ( OF JUST TWO STEPS )…

      From the same ‘Action Items’ section in the July 31, 2015 minutes, where only 8 of the 14 Board members were actually ‘present’…

      ————————————————————————————
      Chairman Black opened up general discussion among the Board members.

      * Board members discussed multi agency partnerships, and that the family’s needs and wants for the memorial site were continuous monitored and met.

      * Amanda Marsh stated that she wanted to make sure the families were ok with people having access down to the fatality site and wanted the families to have a vote. Amanda will contact families in two-weeks. If there is a split among the family members, the Board would vote.

      * Chairman Black read an email from John Flynn regarding his comments and concerns about the project. He believes it is imperative to have input from the 19 families on the design and development of the project. He also stated that he was concerned about public access to the deployment site and felt that it should only be accessible to the families and to the fire community by permit. If the consensus from the families were to allow access, he would be ok with that.
      —————————————————————————————————-

      ** BREAKOUT

      I’m going to do a ‘breakout’ on each of these… because they are important to understanding HOW they ( the family members ) still are going to get to decide who has access to what at this new ‘Arizona State Park’.

      There are also ‘motions’ that came later in the meeting related to these things that prove they became ‘DONE DEALS’ at this July 31, 2015 meeting… even though only 8 Board Members ( out of 14 ) actually VOTED.

      ** THE PARK MUST STILL MEET (QUOTE) ‘THE FAMILY’S NEEDS’…

      —————————————————————————————————-
      * Board members discussed multi agency partnerships, and that the family’s needs and wants for the memorial site were continuous monitored and met.
      —————————————————————————————————

      By designating this a ‘Memorial Park’… Arizona Parks Department gets to pursue this ‘prime directive’ without any new RULES being made or subject to approval by the Arizona State Legislature.

      ** AMANDA MARSH IS ASSIGNED TO ‘POLL’ THE FAMILY MEMBERS

      ————————————————————————————————-
      * Amanda Marsh stated that she wanted to make sure the families were ok with people having access down to the fatality site and wanted the families to have a vote. Amanda will contact families in two-weeks. If there is a split among the family members, the Board would vote.
      ————————————————————————————————-

      So at this particular meeting ( July 31, 2015 )… it was Amanda Marsh herself who proposed that even though this is now going to be an Arizona PUBLIC State Park, it should still be completely up to the families if any member of the public EVER gets to go down anywhere NEAR the deployment site…

      …and everyone in the room agreed with her.

      Arizona State Forester Jeff Whitney IMMEDIATELY made a Motion to ‘make it so’… and there was then UNANIMOUS APPROVAL.

      So the following Jeff Whitney motions PASSED is now a DONE DEAL… even though only 8 of the 14 public Board members voted.

      Motion: Jeff Whitney moved that the Yarnell Board approve Amanda Marsh to get input from the families regarding suggested design of the fatality site, access to the fatality site, and access among the crosses. Senator Pierce seconded the motion. Unanimous approval.

      Notice that the ‘access’ component has TWO parts.

      Amanda Marsh is going to POLL the families about whether any member of the public should ( first and foremost ) EVER be allowed anywhere NEAR that deployment site ( as in… confined to to the high-ridge two-track ).

      If there is ‘approval’ among the family members for the PUBLIC being allowed to actually enter the ‘bowl’… there is then ANOTHER ‘access’ component that has to do with what Whitney’s motion called “access among the crosses”.

      Depending on where these two separate WALLS mentioned in the (approved) ‘design’ are… that could still mean the PUBLIC is to be kept quite some distance away from the deployment site… and ONLY ‘certain people’ ( decided by WHO? ) would ever get to have ‘that kind of access’ at this Arizona State PUBLIC park.

      You don’t have to fall too far from the turnip truck to realize that this is a complicated ‘issue’… and it matters very much how this whole thing is even PRESENTED to ‘the family members’.

      The PRESENTATION itself could easily be made in such a way as to elicit a certain response of fulfill an agenda.

      Yet the widow of just ONE of the deceased firefighters now has ‘unanimous’ approval of the entire Arizona State PUBLIC Board to go about doing this ‘polling’ of the family members however she chooses… and UNSUPERVISED.

      Instead of arranging a MEETING with these family members… where ALL Board members might be present to explain the plans and the situation… and for ALL of the (voting) Board members to listen to their reactions for themselves… they have agreed to let just this ONE wife of just ONE of the firefighters go around ( by HERSELF ) and do this critical ‘decision making poll’.

      ** IF SPLIT DECISION… BOARD DECIDES

      There was also this little ‘gem’ that was decided at this public meeting…

      “If there is a split among the family members, the Board would vote.”

      So if Amanda Marsh comes back from her little ( unsupervised ) ‘polling’ expedition and reports that the ‘families’ are ‘split’ ( whatever that means ) about whether the public should ever be able to get near the deployment site at this PUBLIC Arizona State Park…

      …then the BOARD just gets to decide that themselves.

      Hopefully with more than 8 members ( out of 14 ) actually ‘voting’.

      ** ‘FIRE COMMUNITY’ ( Whatever the hell THAT means? ) CAN GET
      ** ‘ACCESS PERMITS’… BUT NOT ANYONE ELSE?

      There’s a guy on this PUBLIC Board named ‘John Flynn’.

      He is listed on the ‘Board members’ page as…

      John Flynn of the Arizona Fire Districts Association, representing
      a non-profit ( organization ) that supports public safety;

      He is ALSO the Chairman of this ‘Yarnell Hill Memorial Site’ Board’s FUNDRAISING subcommittee.

      As shown above in original posting… this ‘John Flynn’ guy was NOT in attendance at this meeting… but he knew the ‘access’ part was going to be discussed so he sent Chairman Sue Black and EMAIL that he wanted to go ‘on the record’ as they were having this ‘who gets to access what’ discussion.

      This ‘John Flynn’ guy is all concerned about ‘public access’ ( even though it’s going to be a State Park ) and he thinks no one who isn’t a ‘family member’ or a ‘member of the fire community ) ( Again… whatever the hell THAT means ) should be able to get anywhere near the actual deployment site.

      Chairman Sue Black read his ’email’ into the public record of this meeting…

      * Chairman Black read an email from John Flynn regarding his comments and concerns about the project. He believes it is imperative to have input from the 19 families on the design and development of the project. He also stated that he was concerned about public access to the deployment site and felt that it should ONLY be accessible to the FAMILIES and to the “FIRE COMMUNITY” by PERMIT.. If the consensus from the families were to allow access, he would be ok with that.

      ** BOTTOM LINE

      So it looks like this original “small group of widows” that wanted to buy the land themselves and be in total control regarding who ever gets to get anywhere NEAR the deployment site is still very much ‘in control’ of the decision making process about that very thing.

      If that “small group of widows” ( it is still assumed that Amanda Marsh was/is one of that original group ) can do the right “sell job” on the other family members, then it looks like they will get much of what they wanted in the first place by wanting to purchase the land themselves and “Limit access to JUST US and the FIRE COMMUNITY”.

      It’s highly likely that Amanda Marsh came back with her little ‘polling report’ at the most recent September 18, 2015 meeting… but just as they have done for every previous meeting… this Arizona Public Board is in violation of the rules governing all Arizona Public Boards by not publishing the minutes of a previous meeting within 72 hours following the meeting.

      The local media ( Prescott Daily Courier ) has also stopped sending any reporters to these public meetings or writing any articles about what goes on at them… so who knows when we will find out the results of Amanda Marsh’s little “I’ll poll the family members myself” mission.

      Maybe we won’t find out until this public Arizona State Park actually opens and there are guards posted everywhere checking IDs and ( somehow? ) determining if you are a “family member” ( whatever that criteria will be? ) or a member of this elusive “fire community”.

      What a circus.

      Reply

      • One wonders why the fuss over keeping it to just a few? What are they hiding–is it that the privileged want to keep the gross errors made by those firemen hidden from other firemen who stand to learn from those errors. Public would not understand the errors although once written about would come to understand how foolish their bosses led those men to their deaths. Is that something Amanda wants to hide considering that Eric was in command and could have kept the men from going down. Unless of course Steed disobeyed Marsh or went down on his own will. Either way both are at fault for their gross error and likely had they survived would have been prosecuted for negligence that lead to those younger ones deaths.

        Reply

  80. I just discovered that on April 30, 2015, Eric Hipke produced and posted his OWN video on YouTube regarding the South Canyon Fire.

    I found this to be really interesting, given that he was involved in the USFS 2014 video regarding that fire that said, “We need to talk about this!”, given how much the USFS has tried to, via themselves and their derivative organizations etc, tried to shut down “talking about” the Yarnell HIll Wildfire.

    An essential “ad campaign” that I’ve been, all things considered, pretty cynical about.

    I’ve just been sitting here watching it, and thinking, “this is really different from what I’ve seen so far.”

    I would be really really really really interested in what Gary Olsen and Bob Powers think about how Eric narrated this fire earlier this year, all things considered, and what his narration might have to do with how the Yarnell Fire is currently being narrated.

    One of the things I’m thinking about is how the fact that Eric Hipke published to YouTube at the end of April 2015 may substantiate both Gary’s and WTKTT’s claim that, no matter what happens to get in the way of the
    Truth, the Truth will still push to be known.

    “1994 South Canyon Fire on Storm King Mountain”

    https://youtu.be/ZzGTjfTHihU

    Reply

    • Oh, and also speaking about the USFS, I found this thingy today:

      It pertains to “How the Forest Service is botching its biggest restoration project,” the 4FRI project in Arizona.

      When I read this, it confirmed what Gary said downstream about how the USFS is totally uninterested in listening to what “civilians” have to say about anything. Even when they have, at one point in time, solicited “the public’s” ideas and opinions.

      Lost in the woods
      How the Forest Service is botching its biggest restoration project.

      https://www.hcn.org/issues/46.15/lost-in-the-woods

      Reply

    • PS. And I spent a bunch of time today on the google machine trying to find any kind of conversation about why a USFS Engine crew wound up on a bad road (connected to private property) near Twisp that the County’s FD Chief had said “Do not go here!!!!” or at least any kind of conversation about that and I found NOTHING.

      And then I spent a bunch of time on the google machine trying to find ANY conversation about why a USFS (I’m assuming, or maybe I’m wrong???) smoke-jumper crew would have found themselves in a position to have been burned over on private land on the rapidly expanding Northern California Valley Fire. And I found nothing nada.

      I really don’t understand what is going wrong. And, apparently, nobody is talking about it

      Am I missing something?

      Reply

      • Marti if you are talking about the 4 who got severe burns in Northern California Valley Fire.
        My understanding was they were a IA Helitack crew and they were Cal Fire.

        Unless we are talking about something Different I have herd of no USFS Smoke Jumpers Being Burned.

        Cal Fire would have been responsible for Private Land. Also there are Co-op agreements with the USFS for assistance to them under the Closes forces Concept.
        So the FS could be on Private and State Land with any number of equipment or Crews.

        Reply

      • Well…if you have a positive take on what Eric Hipke said, I am going to say that is being run by the USFS, so I don’t know what to say. The original report was way off and Dr. Putnam wouldn’t sign it, so I don’t know what is going on?

        Reply

      • I guess what I am trying to say Marti…is that if you liked the presentation, I think I need to hear from you as to why you liked it, because I would not have guessed that is what your take-a-way would have been? I am surprised. Pleasantly surprised…but surprised.

        Reply

    • Marti said “I just discovered that on April 30, 2015, Eric Hipke produced and posted his OWN video on YouTube regarding the South Canyon Fire.”

      That statement is completely wrong. Eric Hipke did not produce or post that video. That video was professionally produced by the National Wildfire Coordinating Group which is the umbrella organization for the “fire community;”

      Eric Hipke was simply the narrator and he was working for (and I assume he still is) for the National Interagency Fire Center (national Command & Control for all wildfire operations) so he is a mouthpiece for “them.” That is not necessarily a bad thing, but you have to know that he is a spokesperson for the company line.

      Other than that, I don’t have the patience right now to sit through an official narration of what occurred on the South Canyon Fire for almost one and a half hours. Maybe if I get drunk or high or if I am in a car accident and I am partially brain damaged and home bound. Maybe then?

      I am trying to focus on the Battlement Creek Fire, and yes, I get it, nobody cares about such a little fire with such a small death toll that happened so long ago. And now the Yarnell Hill Fire, which is really screwing up my golden years because of what happened there first and foremost, and now what is happening with the memorial board’s bullshit. Why are any of us still here? We all need an intervention.

      Reply

      • I didn’t state that strong enough. I am so pissed off right now and frustrated with what the politics of Prescott, Yavapai County and Arizona are doing right with the Granite Mountain Hotshot Memorial State Park that I am ready to SCREAM! Or maybe just go ATVing for a few days.

        Reply

        • Maybe it was out of just pure ‘hope’… but I really did think that once it was agreed that Arizona State Parks Department was going to ‘own’ that piece of land and make a ‘State Park’ out of it… that maybe ( just maybe ) whatever few ADULTS are actually left in the great and wonderful State of Arizona had finally showed up to the party and a lot of the juvenile “we don’t owe jack shit to the taxpayers” stuff would just stop.

          Bzzzt. Wrong assumption ( again? ).

          There is actually an ‘ominous’ statement in the July 31, 2015 minutes of the PUBLIC Arizona State ‘Yarnell Memorial Site Board’ meeting that just sort of ‘flies by’…

          It says… ( as part of the ‘Action Items’ session of the meeting )

          —————————————————————
          Chairman Black opened up general discussion among the Board members.

          * Board members discussed multi agency partnerships, and that the family’s needs and wants for the memorial site were continuous monitored and met.
          —————————————————————-

          Sounds pretty innocent, yes?

          But break down this piss-poor note-taking and it says something different.

          * ‘multi-agency partnerships’.

          Normally… all the ‘security’ of an Arizona State park is required to be enforced by duly employed ‘Park Rangers’. That includes reports of ‘trespassing’ or invalid access to certain areas.

          Well… talking about ‘multi-agency parnterships’ could very well mean they are acknowledging the fact that there will be no permanent park rangers at this ‘Memorial Site’… so they are going to need ‘multi-agency’ agreements with the Yavapai County Sheriff’s office and/or the Yarnell Fire Department to keep this site ‘locked down’ they way they really WANT to.

          * the family’s needs and wants for the memorial site were
          * continuous(ly) monitored and met.

          In other words… the meeting apparently took the turn towards “we are gonna need multi-agency law enforcement agreements in place in order to make sure no one but family members ( or firefighters ) are gaining full access to this site”

          So this discussion is happening on July 31, 2015 BEFORE Amanda Marsh even ‘launches’ on her little UNSUPERVISED ‘polling’ mission of the family members.

          They ( the 8 Board members who actually bothered to show up on July 31 ) seem to be ‘assuming’ that the final decision would be some level of ‘lock down’ on the site… and they are gonna need ‘multi ( law enforcement ) agency” agreements to even have a chance at pulling off a ‘lock down’ and to ( exact quote ) “continuously monitor and meet the family’s requirements”.

          This is a frickin’ STATE PARK we are talking about…

          …and THEY still seem to be talking about how much ‘law enforcement’ support it’s gonna take to do ‘lock downs’ on this STATE PARK.

          Like I said… I thought some adults had showed up when Arizona State Parks got involved.

          Looks like that ‘thought’ was premature.

          Reply

  81. Reply to Gary Olson post on September 28, 2015 at 5:26 pm

    ( Continuing a conversation from down below )…

    >> Gary Olson said…
    >>
    >> And yes, I agree with you except for one thing, I don’t think it is an interesting
    >> legal question at all (and I realize you were trying to be nice and give them the
    >> benefit of the doubt), I think it is a no-brainer. I don’t think the Arizona State Lands
    >> Department has the authority at all to write or enforce closures orders on
    >> Arizona State Parks.

    Correct. That’s the ‘no-brainer’ part.

    The ‘interesting’ part ( which I actually forgot to talk about ) is whether or not that ‘change of ownership’ on the land also fully and legally ( and immediately ) INVALIDATES an existing ‘Court Order’ related to that piece of land.

    Say, for example, that the actual Court Order just said something like…

    “For a period of one year… Thou shalt not hike anywhere near the south half of Arizona Section 9, in Township 10 North, Range 05 West.”

    Well… technically… that has nothing to do with who OWNS the land. Some ‘Judge Roy Bean’ has determined he can order some citizen to stay away from some specific piece of land for some specific amount of time. Period. End of story.

    Or IS it ( end of story? ).

    I don’t know. Looking for a Holiday Inn Express to stay in tonight with good WiFi and see if some good ‘Googling’ can find any frickin’ precedent for this weirdness.

    ** MORE ABOUT THIS…

    It really does all depend on EXACTLY what any particular ‘Court Order’ actually SAYS.

    At the URL you reposted just down below…

    The original ‘State Trust Land Closure Order’ issued by
    the Arizona State ( Trust ) Land Department )…

    http://www.azstateparks.com/committees/downloads/Yarnell_Land_Closing_Orders.pdf

    At the top of this ‘Addendum to original Closure Order’ ( ALL CAPS are theirs… )
    ————————————————————————————–

    STATE LAND DEPARTMENT OF THE STATE OF ARIZONA
    BEFORE THE STATE LAND COMMISSIONER

    ORDER NO. 109-2013/2014

    ORDER AUTHORIZING ADDITIONAL ACCESS WITH REGARDS
    TO CLOSING ORDER NO. 006-2013/2014.

    IN THE MATTER OF MODIFYING CLOSING ORDER NO. 006-2013/2014
    FOR THE FOLLOWING DESCRIBED STATE TRUST SURFACE
    AND SUBSURFACE LAND.

    SOUTH HALF OF SECTION 9 IN TOWNSHIP 10 NORTH, RANGE
    5 WEST, 320 ACRES, YAVAPAI COUNTY, ARIZONA.
    —————————————————————————————

    So if a ‘Court Order’ that some ‘Judge Roy Bean’ might issue trying to keep someone away from this ‘Public’ land simply said…

    “I hereby ORDER you to respect all the provisions of any/all valid Arizona State Land Department Closure Orders, particularly ASLD Closure order 006-2013/2014 and its addendum 109-2013/2014”

    …then there is ‘wiggle room’ here.

    Because on June 30, 2015… “ASLD Closure order 006-2013/2014 and its addendum 109-2013/2014” were NO LONGER VALID.

    On that day… it was NO LONGER STATE TRUST LAND and any/all ‘Closure Orders’ issued by ASLD for that piece of turf would be automatically ‘obsolete’ and ‘invalid’.

    But if the Court Order actually ‘reproduced’ any of the original ASLD Order and specifically names the location by saying something like…

    “I hereby ORDER you to respect all the provisions of any/all valid Arizona State Land Department Closure Orders, particularly ASLD Closure order 006-2013/2014 and its addendum 109-2013/2014, and to not hike anywhere near the south half of Section 9 in Township 10 North, Range 5 West, Yavapai County, Arizona”

    …now things get ‘sticky’ ( legally speaking ).

    Technically… just because the ‘Court Order’ might have ‘reiterated’ the actual geographic coordinates from the ASLD document… this basically now becomes a ‘two part’ Court Order.

    1) Respect all VALID ASLD closure announcements.
    2) Stay away from a specific piece of physical land.

    The SALE of the land and it passing OUT of the jurisdiction of ASLD seems to immediately negate ‘part 1’ of the Court Order… but does it ALSO then automatically negate ‘part 2’ of the same Order?

    It absolutely depends on EXACTLY what any particular ‘Court Order’ SAYS ( word for word ).

    I’m still looking for that ‘Holiday Inn Express’ to stay in tonight and do some more research on this.

    More later.

    Reply

    • I am going to go out on another limb here, which I am now well known for doing. And we won’t know until we see exactly what Judge Bean told Joy in the court order that was produced as a result of Amanda Marsh flexing her muscles to show Joy who was boss.

      BUT…that being said, I doubt is Judge Bean go involved in the “no hike” order at all. I think Judge Bean would have relied on the power of the Arizona State Land Department to manage their own land and issue their own closure orders.

      Maybe, the court order just says stuff about what Joy should not do pertaining directly to Amanda Marsh or whatever the focus of THAT hearing was, and did not address the state land at all?

      Reply

      • I don’t think that’s a ‘limb’ at all.

        It’s an educated guess… and I agree.

        It could turn out there are basically THREE distinct WTF moments involved with this blatant manipulation of the Court System.

        WTF 1: Whatever Amanda Marsh said in the original affidavit that even enabled her to get in front of Judge Roy Bean in the first place. Could be COMPLETE BULLSHIT.

        WTF 2: What happened at the hearing. Did it FOCUS on the original ‘allegations’ in the (signed) affidavit at all… or did it take off to Disneyland and start to be about all kinds of other things… including total ‘hearsay’ testimony from Darrell Willis coming from people who hadn’t even filed ANY complaints of their own.

        SIDENOTE: That, itself, is totally outside Arizona Law. It specifically says with regards to POs and “Injunctions Against Harassment” that (quote) “The Court will NOT entertain multiple plaintiffs. Each plaintiff must file their own affidavit”.

        WTF 3: The Court Order itself. Does it bear any resemblance to what even SEEMED to be discussed or decided in the hearing itself.

        By the way…

        See this new post above for a better answer to your question “How do you make a rule for a PUBLIC State Park that just lets SOME people IN and keeps OTHER people out?”

        http://www.investigativemedia.com/yarnell-hill-fire-chapter-xvi/#comment-309082

        The answer turns out to be very simple ( and it is ALREADY being implemented ).

        1. You get Arizona Parks to declare it a special “Memorial Park”

        2. You then punt all decisions about ‘access’ to “The family members and the firefighting community”.

        It looks like the original “small group of widows” ( led by Board Member Amanda Marsh? ) are pretty much poised to get almost exactly what they wanted to get by buying the land themselves… but with a ‘neat trick’.

        They now get to just use taxpayer dollars to accomplish the same goal of ‘limiting’ full access to the ‘State Park’ to the same people they would have only allowed access to if they had bought the land themselves.

        Reply

        • By the way… if it turns out that Amanda Marsh really was one of those “small group of widows” who originally lobbied State Representative Karen Fann to put a ‘rider’ in the proposed legislation that THEY ( she and the other widows ) should get “first rights” on BUYING the deployment site land…

          …then there is no way in hell she should have been appointed to the resulting “Arizona State PUBLIC Yarnell Memorial Site Board”.

          I can’t think of a better definition of “Conflict of Interest” that should PROHIBIT someone from serving on the very same PUBLIC Board that a legislature establishes to decide the fate of the same land that person wanted to BUY.

          Yet there both she and Deborah Pfingston are… ‘serving’ on that PUBLIC Board and trying to influence the outcome towards the exact same ‘goal’ they had for buying the land for themselves, with their OWN money.

          And ( apparently ) doing a pretty good job of succeeding at it.

          Geez. Louise.

          Reply

          • Total caveat here for the above…

            No matter how this ended up going down… I ( myself ) think that every single direct family member of those men that burned to death should have/had a LOT to say about what was going to be done with the land and what the ‘Public State Park’ should look like…

            …but serving on the BOARD that is making those decisions when you might be one of the persons who was ‘competing’ for ‘possession’ of the same property is something else altogether.

            That really is just classic “Conflict of Interest”.

            Reply

  82. I am looking for the statute that grants Arizona State Parks (Director) the authority to close specific parks to specific people but exempt special people, so if anybody else knows where it is, please post it.

    Reply

      • I don’t know, at first glance (read) it looks to me like the State Parks Department can make rules, but the rules have to be approved by the Arizona State Legislature?

        9. Make reasonable rules for the protection of, and maintain and keep the peace in, state parks and monuments. Such rules adopted by the parks board are subject to review and approval by the legislature. After a board rule has been finally adopted pursuant to chapter 6 of this title, the board shall immediately forward a certified copy of the rule to the legislature. The legislature may review and, by concurrent resolution, approve, disapprove or modify such rule. However, such rule shall be given full force and effect pending legislative review. If no concurrent resolution is passed by the legislature with respect to the rule within one year following receipt of a certified copy of the rule, the rule shall be deemed to have been approved by the legislature. If the legislature disapproves a rule or a section of a rule, the board shall immediately discontinue the use of any procedure, action or proceeding authorized or required by the rule or section of the rule. If the legislature modifies a rule or section of a rule, the board shall immediately suspend the use of any procedure, action or proceeding authorized or required by the rule or section of the rule until the modified rule has been adopted in accordance with chapter 6 of this title, after which all proceedings pursuant to the rule shall be conducted in accordance with the modified version of the rule.

        Reply

        • Or technically the “rule” would be in force until the state legislature takes action on it but if they don’t do anything after one year, it becomes a permanent rule by default.

          Sounds to me like the “devil is in the details” on this one. How do you write a rule vague enough to let all of the people you want to get in by default…get in, but yet specific enough to keep all of the people you don’t want to go in…out?

          You gotta love it…or not?

          It’s no wonder I haven’t heard back from either the Arizona State Parks Department or the Arizona State Lands Department regarding my specific questions…yet.

          Reply

          • Reply to Gary Olson post on September 28, 2015 at 3:41 pm

            >> Gary Olson said…
            >>
            >> Technically the “rule” would be in force until the state
            >> legislature takes action on it but if they don’t do anything
            >> after one year, it becomes a permanent rule by default.

            I’m currently ‘on the road’ again ( more like “on the AIR road” )… and I didn’t stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night ( it was actually a Marriott )…

            …but the answer here is “Big fat YES”.

            Example….

            Someone in the halls of the Arizona State Parks department ( or on some Advisory committee like… oh… I don’t know… say something like the ‘Yarnell Hill Memorial State Park Advisory Board’ ) comes up with the idea that it would be good to write up a RULE for Arizona State Parks that prohibits any known PSYCHICS or MEDIUM from stepping foot onto that State Park… because we all understand that the State of Arizona doesn’t want to get anywhere near afoul of the writings in Leviticus, right?

            This new ‘proposed rule for all State Parks’ goes ‘all the way up the flagpole’… and now the full and complete Arizona State Parks BOARD ( and NOT just the Director ) votes on this ‘new rule’ and they APPROVE it.

            That ‘rule’ would then be immediately assumed to be VALID until the Arizona State Legislature ‘reviews’ it and decides to ADD it to the existing body of law governing Arizona State Parks.

            If they ( the Arizona Legislature ) sit on their hands for 1 year+… then this ‘rule’ is ASSUMED to remain valid and enforceable.

            I believe the Arizona Legislature *could* take it up AFTER than and vote it ‘invalid’… but the default ‘action time’ of one year favors the Arizona State Parks Board and the decisions they make.

            If some ‘rule’ gets anywhere near a conflict with the Arizona State Constitution ( or the U.S. Constitution ) and tries to violate civil rights or even begins to restrict the rights of any members of ‘the public’… you can be sure the AZ Legislature isn’t just going to ‘let that slide’.

            They WILL debate it… and they WILL vote ‘yay or nay’ on it.

            >> Gary Olson also said…
            >>
            >> Sounds to me like the “devil is in the details” on this one.
            >> How do you write a rule vague enough to let all of the
            >> people you want to get in by default…get in, but yet
            >> specific enough to keep all of the people you don’t
            >> want to go in…out?

            I don’t know. Like I said… I neglected to say at a ‘Holiday Inn Express’ last night… but my gut feeling is it would be impossible… unless you just go for some carte-blanche “up to the discretion of the individual Park Managers who may or may not be likely to ‘disturb the peace’ at a public park”…

            …but I wouldn’t want to be any attorney in the Arizona Attorney General’s office who might have to defend a rule that ‘vague’ the moment it is challenged.

            >> Gary Olson also said…
            >>
            >> It’s no wonder I haven’t heard back from either the Arizona
            >> State Parks Department or the Arizona State Lands
            >> Department regarding my specific questions…yet.

            It’s a very interesting LEGAL situation.

            The moment the Arizona State Parks Department was the successful BIDDER for that parcel of land ( $304,000 ) on the steps of the Yavpai County Courthouse ( in Prescott ) at 11:00 AM on June 30, 2015… it was then NO LONGER STATE TRUST LAND.

            At that moment… this ‘already public land’ ( but held in TRUST for the Arizona State School system ) became even MORE PUBLIC.

            And at the same moment… the ‘Arizona State Land Department’ was no longer either responsible for it OR had any ‘jurisdiction’ over it.

            So there is the interesting LEGAL question.

            At that very moment… any and all CLOSURES on that ‘State Trust’ land that might have been originally issued by the previous owner ( The Arizona State Land Department ) became immediately ‘null and void’.

            That, of course, does NOT mean that at the same very moment this piece of land actually BECAME a fully-open ‘Arizona State Park’…. but what you can be sure of is that by 11:15 AM on June 30, 2015… if anyone with binoculars in Yarnell had seen someone out ‘walking on’ that piece of land who they didn’t think should be out there… the PHONE NUMBER to call would now be at the “Arizona State Parks Department” and NOT the “Arizona State Trust Land Commissioner’s” office.

            And ( according to Arizona Law ), it would now be a ‘duly appointed Park Ranger’ who needed to take care of the situation… and not local law enforcement.

            We still don’t really know who that ‘small group of widows’ was that caused State Representative ( Prescott District ) Karen Fann to add that ‘rider’ to the original bill saying that these widows should be given the “first rights” to buying the land.

            But at this point… my GUESS would be that this “small group of widows” who really DID envision themselves as being the ‘owners’ of that land and ( as such ) being able to totally violate anyone’s rights that they wanted to regarding ‘access’… would be the SAME “small group of widows” who ended up totally dominating the ‘wrongful death’ litigations and negotiations for the cases being handled by attorney
            Patrick McGroder.

            That would also be the same “small group of widows” who founded this new “Wildland Firefighter Guardian Institute”.

            Roxanne Warneke
            Deborah Pfiingston
            Amanda Marsh

            Juliann Aschcraft was ‘standing’ right there with Pfingston and Warneke as they ‘spoke’ at the settlement press conference… but she did NOT take the podium that day. Only Pfingston and Warneke ‘spoke’ on (quote) “behalf of the families”.

            So it’s hard to say whether Juliann Aschcraft was ALSO originally part of the “small group of widows” that wanted to buy the land for themselves and totally control access to it.

            She had her own ‘battles’ to fight with the City of Prescott around that time… so maybe she could have cared less whether the land was ever going to be ‘locked up tight’ or not.

            It’s also not known WHEN this “small group of widows” actually “gave up” on their original idea of totally controlling access to that piece of property.

            The Arizona State Legislature didn’t let Karen Fann’s “first rights of refusal for the small group of widows” rider survive in the bill… but they DID say that the first piece of ‘action’ for the new “Yarnell Memorial Site Advisory Board” was to VOTE on whether or not the widows should even have a crack at buying the land.

            The vote wasn’t even close. I believe it was ‘unanimous’ that the best thing for all concerned was to let Arizona State Parks buy the land.

            So sometime before that vote it would appear that this “small group of widows” decided to “give up” on their original plan of buying the land for themselves and then having complete access control.

            Reply

            • Correction for above.

              Amanda Marsh does not appear to have anything to do with this “Wildland Firefighter Guardian Institute”.

              Amanda Marsh stated her OWN ‘not-for-profit’ group dedicated to the memory of her deceased husband.

              But I believe Amanda Marsh WAS ( originally ) part of this “small group of widows” that originally lobbied State Representative Karen Fann to put that ‘rider’ in the proposed legislation saying that THEY had “first dibs” on buying the deployment site land and then totally controlling access to it.

              As stated above… we still don’t know EXACTLY who this “small group of widows” really was… even though they actually succeeded in co-authoring a ‘rider’ to a piece of legislation that went before the Arizona State Legislature.

              Reply

              • Crap. TYPO above…

                Should have been…

                Amanda Marsh STARTED her OWN ‘not-for-profit’ group dedicated to the memory of her deceased husband.

                Reply

            • Yes, the age old problem in the United States of America for those who have power. How do we enhance the rights of those we like, while at the same time how do we restrict the rights of those we don’t like, without running afoul of that pesky document our founding fathers created, the United States Constitution.

              And yes, I agree with you except for one thing, I don’t think it is an interesting legal question at all (and I realize you were trying to be nice and give them the benefit of the doubt), I think it is a no-brainer. I don’t think the Arizona State Lands Department has the authority at all to write or enforce closures orders on Arizona State Parks.

              I just couldn’t get anybody at either agency to admit that to me today once I stopped being quite so fucking friendly and dumb ass. That’s when I am used to pulling out a big shiny gold badge and informing them I am asking my questions on behalf of the United States Government and “We The People” would sincerely appreciated their cooperation or…else.

              Sometimes…I actually miss my old job.

              Reply

              • Reply Gary Olson post on September 28, 2015 at 5:26 pm

                >> Gary Olson said…
                >>
                >> And yes, I agree with you except for one thing, I
                >> don’t think it is an interesting legal question at
                >> all (and I realize you were trying to be nice and
                >> give them the benefit of the doubt), I think it is
                >> a no-brainer. I don’t think the Arizona State Lands
                >> Department has the authority at all to write or
                >> enforce closures orders on Arizona State Parks.

                Correct. That’s the ‘no-brainer’ part.

                The ‘interesting’ part ( which I actually forgot to talk about ) is whether or not that ‘change of ownership’ on the land also fully and legally ( and immediately ) INVALIDATES an existing ‘Court Order’ related to that piece of land.

                Say, for example, that the actual Court Order just said something like…

                “For a period of one year… Thou shalt not hike anywhere near the south half of Arizona Section 9, in Township 10 North, Range 05 West.”

                Well… technically… that has nothing to do with who OWNS the land. Some ‘Judge Roy Bean’ has determined he can order some citizen to stay away from some specific piece of land for some specific amount of time. Period. End of story.

                Or IS it ( end of story? ).

                I don’t know. Looking for a Holiday Inn Express to stay in tonight with good WiFi and see if some good ‘Googling’ can find any frickin’ precedent for this weirdness.

                Reply

    • From the document…

      B. Beginning on January 1, 2017, the Arizona state parks board shall administer the fund.

      So on that date ( if not before )… this “Yarnell Hill Memorial Board” will be NO MORE… and if anyone on that ‘Board’ still wants any kind of ‘say so’ about what happens at this Arizona State Park… they will have to quickly get a job directly with the “Arizona State Parks Department’ and then quickly achieve some level of actual influence.

      This entire “Yarnell Hill Memorial Board” is a TEMPORARY BOARD.

      It is meant to EVAPORATE when its ‘job’ is finished.

      POSTSCRIPT: Deborah Pfingston is heavily INVOLVED with this Board… but she is by no means officially ON the Board. She was simply ‘invited’ at one of the first meetings to be on the ‘Design subcommittee’. This is legal. These ‘Arizona State Boards’ CAN, in fact, create whatever subcommittees they want an ‘invite’ members of the public to be on them.

      But Deborah Pfingston herself does not have an actual VOTE whenever this Board takes up an issue that requires ‘voting’.

      Reply

  86. WARNING – POSSIBLE OFFICIAL ARZIZONA STATE PARKS DEPARTMENT SCAM ALERT!

    It will take some time to sort this out due to the large amount of official BULLSHIT I heard from several Arizona State employees this morning. But right now, at this time, it appears to me that it is possible the Arizona State Parks Department and the Yarnell Hill Memorial Fund are running a con game to fool people into believing access to the GMIHC deployment site and the Arizona State Parks land surrounding the site is closed under an official Closure Order that is no longer valid and in fact has not been valid since June 30,2014.

    All of that is unclear to me at this point however due to the fact that my alter ego…Special Agent Friendly Dumb Ass only works to a certain point when the questions get harder and more specific and that is when the SUBJECT in question usually starts to suspect they are not really talking to a friendly dumb ass at all…and then the red flags go up, the alarm bells go off and the SUBJECT shuts down.

    That is where we are currently at…and I will inform you when and if that changes.

    Reply

  87. FYI – I decided to take some direct action as opposed to my normal nearly useless blogging today and so I called the Arizona State Land to speak to Max Masel to discuss their Closure Order, and how I can go to the deployment site to go hiking and take photographs.

    A very nice lady named Nancy told me that they no longer owned that property and so therefore their Closure Order is no longer in effect and to find out further information about the land surrounding the deployment site, I would need to talk to the Arizona Parks Department at 602-542-4174. Which I tried to do but the man I needed to speak do was unavailable and so I left a message and asked him to call me back.

    In the meantime, I have started a web page for Joy to document her case where I will post any information that I get about her situation in the hope that shining the light on it will make it go away. The page is at;

    http://ourfiregods.com/FreeJoy.html

    Reply

    • cute…free joy…I look forward to hearing the additional call back from State Land…

      REPLY TO GARY:
      I have to lay low on topic until the start of new year however anything pertaining to anyone else but person I am not able to discuss which includes my case as I heard it….I will try to over time to assist. Limited at time because most items are not in my possession until 2016 to avoid me from using it on an emotional days…I will send you any communications on Debra since their family thinks Holly is the sole gal to trying to help her…maybe the emails will shed light…

      Also I will go to the very beginning and try to make emails as pdf or jpeg/jpg and post Paxon and Payne and Willis and Joanna Dodder and down the line so people can see the journey I went through…besides my google+ photo pages…I also will in 2016 release more information…

      SIDE NOTE: guy in library doing signs…he gave this number
      928-231-1034 belongs to Pat to help with signs and search and rescue thing…the man in Yarnell library just spoke up and gave me number to further look into it…

      Reply

      • Yes, me too. I am waiting for the famous, “I’ll call you back”, but I am not holding my breath. Their answer will probably be to get a new order signed by the right person if I am correct in that the old one may no longer be valid and enforceable..

        And then in the end, it will still be up to anyone who wants to challenge that order to hire an attorney who can write motions in the arcane language used by the legal system to perpetuate itself to challenge what is a BULLSHIT order.

        The current and possibly invalid order states in part, “on July 12, 2013, the land was closed to any and all access and use, except to the families of the fallen, those public safety officials charged with investigating the fire and protecting the and public rights of entry to be issued for official purposes.”

        However, I was told that if I asked (which I did) The Yarnell Hill Memorial Site Board, which of course includes Darrell Willis, Amanda Marsh, and our hapless hero, I may be given permission to hike to the site and photograph it under the supervision of the Prescott Fire Department because that is the procedure they have followed for others who wish to visit the site and who are not on the official list in the Closure Order.

        I think your attorney would need to argue your cause by stating things like this order is “unconstitutionally vague”, “arbitrary and capricious” and is selectively enforced based on who is in favor with the Board and who is not.

        The family members of the fallen? All family members? Immediate family members? How about the guests of the family members? Or maybe those who get special permission from the “family members” to violate the Closure Order? How about the guests and invitees of the Board or those approved by the Board? Can the Board give them permission to violate an official “Closure Order?”

        Typical government overreach the Republicans and the Right Wing hate so much until they do it. Then they not only think it is fine…they fucking love it.

        WTF…Over?

        Reply

          • Oh…and one more thing. The Arizona State Parks Department may not even have the authority to issue an official closure order for state parks land since that authority would have to be given to them by the Arizona State Legislature and maybe this has never come up before so they don’t have it.

            I’m sure they can close a state park for lots of reasons, lack of funds so it is closed to everybody, it’s after 10:oop.m. so it is closed, or due to safety reasons, but they may not be able to selectively close it to the public based on the whims of what are in effect…just other citizens who have no more authority than Joy does. People like Darrell Willis, Amanda Marsh, our hapless hero or thousands of members of the families of the fallen.

            That may be the reason there hasn’t been a new closure order issued and this entire issue is nothing but an official scam…a con game for those who don’t know how to ask the right questions and who don’t have legal representations which is beyond the means of most loyal Americans.

            That is unless of course some Dumb Ass Attorney like Shapiro will represent you pro bono. It sounds like our hapless hero really pulled a fast one over on Dumb Ass Shapiro? I love it. You can’t make this shit up!

            Reply

  88. THE NEW STYLE OF JOY….I HOPE IT WORKS/HELPS….
    HERE YA GO—

    TOPIC:
    NOBODY IS ALLOWED IN 320 ACRES EXCEPT INVESTIGATORS ASSIGNED TO YHF.
    HOLLY IS NOT ASSIGNED AND HOLLY IS THE RESEARCHER ASSISTANT TO AN AUTHOR WHO IS MAKING A POSSIBLE BOOK ON YHF NOT OSHA OR SAIT OR ANY INVESTIGATION TEAM.

    REPLY ON J ASHCRAFT’S BLOG:
    I earlier was sent link to that blog you shared of J. Ashcraft’s and thought how neat…rock hunt…road trip…cool…and when I was asked my feedback I said just that—cool rock hunt…but the person was thinking aren’t you upset after all your hours invested that J. Ashcraft does not recognize InvestgativeMedia’s efforts…or yours…and names Holly as the sole person…My reply was no big deal…I don’t think of it as an investment but something we all should do for one another to unify and properly assess this fire in hopes to have change and for the missing elements to come forward and no cliches are needed in doing that…You see I shared to Holly all the details as they came and it was her that said to me “you share what you get and I will share to you when I get some thing…” I did my part. She did not. Yet I was not alone on that because she did it to another. I am not trying to stir any trouble as Dale1 perceived my comment but to STOP people feeling free to talk about cuts and stobs in the restricted area as like they have permission to be there because they do not…if I the EYEWITNESS to the YHF and the person who hiked avidly to the area before the fire can’t get permission to go with a loved one of the GMHS…there was a few too that wanted me to go…last one who said you can go with me…you are my friend Joy and Sonny…that was the father of Grant…Grant Scott McKee…I tried over time to get permission always being denied with statement to me…ONLY the family can go (like visitors…ICU in hospitals)…that is what everyone has to follow was told to me and that I am not singled out…and yet that’s not what is happening…

    THE ONLY ONES ALLOWED WHERE THE MEN DIED ARE THE FAMILIES OF THE FALLEN>>>

    THE ORDER DID NOT STATE FRIENDS AND FIRE COMMUNITY OR WHOEVER THE FAMILY WANTS—

    I KNOW THERE ARE GREY AREAS AS ITS OBVIOUS WITH CHIEF BEN PALM’S ROSTER AND HOLLY NEILL SLEEPING AT HELMS AND FEELING THAT PERMITS HER TO PEAK OUT TO RESTRICTED AREAS>

    I TOLD HOLLY I TRIED MY HARDEST WHEN OUT WITH OSHA TO SEE ANYTHING>>>

    SOURCE OF MY INFORMATION IN WRITING:
    http://azstateparks.com/committees/downloads/Yarnell_Land_Closing_Orders.pdf

    SOURCE OF MY INFORMATION BY TELEPHONE:
    Max Masel
    Director
    602-542-3000

    you go see if the story remains the same or if Max is a chameleon…he seem very straight forward…

    From now on I will not post unless I state
    TOPIC/ SOURCE FOR MY INFORMATION/ EXPLANATION….
    from now on that is how I will post only.
    No more going off talking about personal stuff even though I know MY family and friends come here and they can say “oh I remember that…” I will stay focused to JUST the YHF…I tend to do what I do on my hiking page (zazzle) and ramble off but from now on I hope this helps me be a better online communicator. By the way…I hiked MUCH MORE folks than Holly did the legal way not for my own agenda or angle or book but to HELP all the ones affected by the fire…Your welcome 🙂

    I cannot be upset at Gary…he is just trying to work through why I kept mentioning state land bs in the year 2015 and well, its a touchy topic like I have said…I am known as the desert walker and have a clean record and so it was not taken well from my end to get slapped that on me.
    Everyone says they are just doing their jobs…

    Reply

    • Joy – I for one enjoy all of your stories that are a little off topic. I think this blog is about a lot more than just the Yarnell Hill Fire. It is an experiment in social media that is only based on the Yarnell Hill Fire. And don’t take my criticism to literally, remember…I am a jerk.

      And I don’t think there should be different rules for different people. I think everybody should be treated the same, but I don’t think that is what is happening.

      Marti likes your writing as well and she says I just need to learn how to read better, and I think she is right.

      Reply

    • TOPIC: Max Masel

      QUESTION:

      Did you agree with me. Straight shooter and explains things thorough?

      Comment/REPLY:

      Last time I had to inquire was when Grant wanted to go…so that was week of my bday (July 1)/Memorial Anniversary 2015…

      PAUSE:
      I am in Yarnell library…a man is on his cell…he is loud…he is doing signs for mines for the Fire Depts. and GPS’ing them as well for http://www.ycsrt.org/…he just made a plywood sign for Southern Yavapai Fire Department for Wilhoit….I want to add when listening to this all that alot of these wildfires in Arizona are happening in mining areas…the man says the signs just have fire dept emblems and I am talking to him to see photo of his art work…he thinks he may have them.

      Reply

  90. Holly Neill—-Gary is Right on. While she has some Fire experience as a Crewman, Radio Operator and Faller what Higher Red Card Qualifications dose she have.
    Possibly Strike team leader Engine, Crew, Faller that is the next step above Squad Boss.
    That is her some total of experience. In California by 13 years 3 summer seasonal 3 to 4 months,
    3 years 13/13 and 18/8 when I went to the Angeles I was a Strike team leader Or back then a Crew Boss–Engen Boss–Falling Boss—Tractor Boss. 7 years on the Angeles moved there for a Full time 26 PP appointment. I worked my way up to a Sector Boss/Back firing team Specialist/ Davison Boss
    at Division Boss level I also achieved Type 2 Line Boss and Fire Boss. All of that came from many winter S course training sessions. and a ton of Fires some where well over 350. 100 as a Crew Boss 50 as a Sector Boss and 20 as a Division Boss. Ops and Fire Boss 2 on severial District Fires.
    I was also a trained Fire investigator on the Angeles before I left there and a State Fire warden thru out my carrier. That makes you a Investigator writing citations and investigating fire Cause and a witness in a Court of law for the FS.

    I have and still Question Holly’s Credentials’

    Now for the real down and out. While the two safety groups she is on, who also give us some good information and write letters to the Government that’s all they do .
    The very thought that they or us will sway the Government to change policy is a foolish day dream.
    Employees can not even do that unless the Regional Forester Identifies a committee to research policy and new direction on the National level requests a study. ‘
    The Fire Gods and the National interagency fire center and Fire coordination group act independently of any Civilian groups. Always have and Always will. The Government is doing its own study and development on Fire Shelters and development. Just like any new changes in Fire Safety Policy. We can make noise but they make Policy at the Region and National level.
    —–There is no new policy happening———-

    Reply

    • Right. If there is one word that describes the wildland firefighting community which is led and dominated by the U.S. Forest Service, it is…tradition.

      Taking on or changing the wildland firefighting community is very similar to what fighting Hydra (the nine headed water serpent from Greek mythology) would be like. Good luck! Because you are going to need lots of it.

      If you want to get return letters with lots of vague statements, empty assurances, and general platitudes…you should write all of them letters demanding changes in how they do business.

      As I have said before, the only way to even get to the plate to take a swing at the ball and maybe get to first base (to use a sports analogy) would be to go through Congress. You would need to start by enlisting a congressional sponsor to get you in the door.

      I would actually really like to know (and I am not trying to be a sarcastic jerk), exactly what is it that the Wildland Firefighting Guardians Institute wants so that deaths like those that occurred on the Yarnell Hill Fire can never happen again? What do THEY think went wrong?

      Reply

      • The real and distinct Problem.
        The State Type 2 team was a mess, did the State fix that problem?

        The Feds are basically saying we do not have that problem at the Type 1 and 2 level. We went through a re check of certification and reset the Teams. If we have a problem we will address it.

        Then you Have Granit Mountain they as easily as I can put it failed to follow the 10 and 18 and did not survive their ignoring the Basics Rules or parts there of which include LCES.

        The Feds have reinforced and added retraining of the 10 and 18
        They are a basic part of the 40 hour Fire Fighter Training and refresher courses. The failure is the same as many others for several reasons that you can not train for like Human errors.
        Fatigue Etc.

        Internally I am betting they have already gone through lessons learned over and over. So far this year we have done well with
        Type 1 and type 2 crews and I attribute that to the retraining and push on the 10 and 18. At least no Federal Burn overs of Crews.
        Or deployments.

        Reply

  91. Dang, I was wrong AGAIN. I do think we should have a big tent where everyone is welcome, but not everyone’s opinion is worth listening to as far as I am concerned. Holly NEILL is one of those. Which of course, others who post on this blog have already said.

    Several days ago I told NEILL that it seemed to me that she was trying desperately to find reasons why what happened to the GMIHC could not be blamed on Eric Marsh and I asked her if that was true, which she never answered.

    A simple internet search of Holly NEILL’S name reveals that Wildland Firefighter Guardian Institute has a number of high profile figures from recent events on its board. These figures include;

    1. Board Co-Chair Deborah Pfingston
    2. Board Member Darrell Willis
    3. Board Member Holly NEILL

    So no, if there is one thing NEILL cannot ever do in my opinion is claim that she is part of any kind of INDEPENDENT investigation, which was also expressed on this blog previously by someone else. So…end of story.

    http://wfgi.org/about-us/board-members/

    Reply

    • This “Wildland Firefighter Guardian Institute” ( WFGI ) thing is the ‘foundation’ that was established with the money that family members Deborah Pfingston, Juliann Ashcraft and Roxanne Warneke receieved ( $50,000 each ) from Arizona Forestry as a result of the ‘settlement’ that was announced just before the second anniversary of the tragedy.

      There is actually still no proof any of them have RECEIVED those settlements funds… since they might be tied to the cessation of ALL litigation… and Marcia McKee’s wrongful death suit filed on behalf of her son, Grant McKeee, is ( as far as I know ) still on ‘appeal’.

      Holly Neill already had the ‘Safety Matters’ thing going as of (circa) February of 2014.
      That website is here…
      http://ffsafetymatters.org/

      Founding members of THAT deal were/are…

      Holly Neill: Wildland Firefighter: National Park Service & U.S. Forest Service: Retired
      Dan O’Brien: Career Wildland Firefighter: National Park Service: Retired
      Elizabeth Anderson: Fire Ecologist:National Park Service & U.S. Forest Service: Retired
      Barry Hicks: U.S. Forest Service: Retired

      The mission of THAT original ‘Safety Matters’ Holly Neill group is as stated below…

      ——————————————————————————–
      The purpose of this forum is to call attention to deficiencies in wildand firefighter safety presented by current wildland fire management systems. We encourage firefighters, the public, and their representatives to support and demand changes in policy and practices so that wildland firefighter and public safety is truly the first priority in all fire management actions.
      ——————————————————————————–

      That’s great. That means that this IM forum should have that organization’s ( and Holly Neill’s ) full and complete endorsement. The goals are ( and always have been ) identical.

      On July 11, 2015 ( Just 12 days after Pfingston, Ashcraft and Warneke spoke at the Yarnell partial settlement press conference ), this new WFGI group announced they would be working ‘side by side’ with this other ‘Safety Matters’ group.

      ————————————————————————
      Safety Matters: A Wildland Firefighter Forum for Change
      Gallery July 11, 2015

      At WFGI we will be working along side Safety Matters to fight for Wildland Firefighter safety policies.
      ————————————————————————

      Holly Neill is the only ‘shared Board Member’ between the two organizations.

      From the ‘Biographies’ section at the website above…

      ————————————————————————————–
      Holly Neill
      Gallery July 12, 2015

      Holly Neill fought fire for the National Park Service, U.S. Forest Service and private contractors for twelve seasons, from 1995 to 2007. Her federal experience includes work on engine and helitack crews, Incident Command Post radio operator, and Fire Use Module member. Her contract experience includes safety liaison for a federally contracted timber faller organization and B certified contract faller.

      Neill is a research specialist and consultant on the Yarnell Hill Fire and the tragic deaths of the 19 Granite Mountain Hotshots on June 30, 2013. She seeks answers to many questions left unanswered by the two official reports, by doing data research, conducting interviews, visiting the fire site and related places, and collaborating with Granite Mountain Hotshot family members and others involved in the fire. She believes that a more complete, accurate and lasting factual legacy can and will be left to the GMIHC and their families, one that can stand the test of time. Firefighter safety and lessons learned can only benefit by a full accounting of the decisions made on the fire and who made them, and most importantly an explanation of why they were made.

      Neill also acts as a research partner for author John Maclean, who is working on a book about the Yarnell Hill Fire.

      Neill is a founding member of Safety Matters: A Wildland Firefighter Forum for Change, a group of fire veterans advocating for wildland firefighter safety. The group, which calls attention to deficiencies in wildand firefighter safety in current wildland fire management systems, encourages firefighters, the public, and their representatives to support and demand changes in policy and practices so that wildland firefighter and public safety is truly the first priority in all fire management actions.
      ————————————————————————

      ** INVESTIGATIONS

      The only place I can find anything related to the ‘Independent Investigations’ part of what this group says it was going to be doing is a little section on the HOME page with the label “Investigations’.

      There is only one entry there… and it’s just a link to the 1 page 72 hour report the Forest Service issued for the Twisp Fire.

      The author of that USFS Twisp 72 hour report was/is…

      John Phipps
      Twisp Fire Fatalities Coordinated Response Protocol Leader.

      There is no ‘comment’ from anyone in this WFGI group about this Twisp fire… or whether they intend to be a true “Guardian Institute’ and even begin to do any ‘investigating’ of their own.

      Likewise… even though MOST of the ‘Board Members’ of this ‘Guardian Institute’ ( Darrell Willis, former GM Hotshot Doug Harwood, William Waldock, Pfingston, Ashcraft, etc, ) all live right there in Prescott… I can’t find any evidence that even one of them has walked over to the old Granite Mountain Station 7, walked into Eric Marsh’s old office where former Blue Ridge Hotshot Ronald Gamble now reports to work ever day… and said…

      “Hey Ronnie… ya know that video you shot in Yarnell at exactly 4:27 PM while you were sittin’ in the driver’s seat of that BR Crew Carrier?… any chance you remember the CALL SIGN of that person Eric Marsh was ‘reporting’ to over the radio and giving that “they’re comin’ from of the heel of the fire” status report to?”

      If they are serious about ‘continuing’ any investigation of the Yarnell Hill Incident… that would be a good place to start.

      Right with the person who now comes to work every day in Eric Marsh’s old office.

      Reply

      • Actually… this WFGI Board Member ‘Doug Harwood’ guy ( former Granite Mountain squad boss ) probably runs into former Blue Ridge Hotshot Ronald Gamble all the time.

        The both work for the Prescott Fire Department.

        Harwood made it all the way to most WFF’s Holy Grail of a ‘perma-job/benefits’ with ‘structure’ in the same place where they work/worked as a Hotshot.

        If the WFGI is *really* interested in finding out a little more about what the hell was going down in Yarnell on June 30, 2013… then Harwood should just swing by Station 7 and take Gamble out to lunch.

        Reply

        • As a result of my minor in sociology I self diagnosed myself with a passive/aggressive personality a long time ago. Wait a minute…that self diagnosis would be as a result to the few classes in psychology I was required to take in order to get my ticket punched for a BS.

          And as a result of this disorder, I have a tendency to put up with things until they build up to a point where somebody pushes the right button and then I…REACT! That is what has finally happened with NEILL. So heads up…I am about to get down in the weeds with another lesson in “the system” that the average reader on this blog may not be too interested in reading about.

          BUT…after reading that NEILL is on not one, but TWO wildland firefighter safety foundations, committees…whatever, as a “wildland firefighter for the National Park Service, the U.S. Forest Service and private contractors for twelve seasons, from 1995 to 2007. Her federal experience includes work on engine and helitack crews, Incident Command Post radio operator, and Fire Use Module member. Her contract experience includes safety liaison for a federally contracted timber faller organization and B certified contract faller who is now retired”, I am going to have to throw down the bullshit card!

          My trigger point actually came after reading an article that she wrote and was published in The National Smokejumper Association Quarterly Magazine “Smokejumper” dated July 2014, as a research specialist and consultant on the Yarnell Hill Fire. And nobody emailed me a copy of it, I just like to keep up on everything smokejumpers are doing with their lives when they aren’t bronzing on the tarmacs so they can imitate Greek Gods and Goddesses. If you don’t want to track down NEILL’S article yourself, but you do want to read it, email me and I will email you back a copy of it. This article of course, is all about NEILL’S take on the Yarnell Hill Fire to date. So…

          I have explained some of the convoluted process most Forestry Technicians (which is what most federal wildland firefighters are because all federal agencies use the same job descriptions) go through in order to finally have a “career” as a wildland firefighter in federal service. And once again, I may be a little fuzzy on some of the details, but I have the gist of it right.

          I think there are actually “summer” employees or at least their used to be and these same employees were sometimes referred to as “summer seasonal”, “seasonal”, or “temporary”, or “summer seasonal temporary” but the bottom line was this, you were on a not-to-exceed a 180 day appointment.

          Which of course means you couldn’t work more than 180 days on the same appointment, but you could be laid off Friday afternoon at quitting time and be rehired on Monday morning at starting time under a new not-to-exceed a 180 day appointment. So tracking this stuff can be pretty hard, so it is really easy for somebody to blur or cross the fine lines between highlighting, padding, exaggerating, and downright falsifying their wildland firefighting experience and it can be hard to nail down.

          Even after some employees (like I did) become employees with “career status” with access to health insurance, retirement benefits and enhanced job security in terms of being laid off or terminated for cause, it can be very murky because like in my case, even after I was considered a career employee, I was a “career conditional” employee before I became a “permanent full time employee.”

          And that too, can be a tortuous route even with career status. For example I was lucky enough to hit all of the stops on the way, which everyone doesn’t do. I was first a 13/13, which meant I was only guaranteed to work for 13 pay periods and then I was subject to being laid off for 13 pay periods (there of course are 26 pay periods per year). I was then an 18/8, a 20/6, a 25/1, and finally a permanent with a 26/0. This of course is how they control their budgets and really make sure they want you as a permanent employee by vetting you through a very difficult and time consuming process which usually takes years…lots of years.

          Although…truthfully, it wasn’t really all that hard for me, I was married to a beautiful Registered Nurse who worked full time in ICU, we didn’t have any children, and who thought hanging out with me while I hung out with my buddies was a good way to spend her time. OH…how things changed and once they did, I really missed the good ole days. So I got to screw around with my laid off hotshot buddies, go hiking in the Grand Canyon often, and generally go camping, hiking, hunting, cutting firewood to sell on the side AND still have time to lay around and lick my nuts while collecting unemployment.

          Is it any wonder that I have now regressed in my golden years back to live in the “happy place” in my mind when I was a hotshot before I was forced to take on a very thin veneer of a civility as a white collar with tie (real ties, not ties that clip-on) worker and get a “real” fucking J. O. B.? Can you understand why I now think, talk, act and basically live like a laid off hotshot again? What a great fucking life! I have even regressed for the most part, all of the way back to when I was a ring leader with the back-of-the-bus pack of hell raisers. Don’t blame me for the things I say and do, I can’t help myself.

          Forgive me…I digress. Back to the issue at hand. To further complicate things, not all agencies (federal, state or local), regions or states, or a wide variety of different names for administrative areas all of the various wildland firefighting agencies use to mark their individual boundaries are created equal.

          For example, an old friend of mine who was also a hotshot crew boss from the mighty (I didn’t make up this nickname, it was and probably is still widely used) Coconino finished his career as the U.S. Forest Service Director of Aviation and Fire Management for Region 5 which is California and the Pacific Islands. His budget was larger than all other USFS regional fire budgets combined, so you also have to look where someone worked and exactly what they did to really understand and evaluate their fire experience.

          And if you have followed this thread all along, you already know that Southern California has always been ground zero for the very worst wildfires and all hotshot crews trace their roots back to the Cradle of Hotshot Civilization, the Cleveland and the Angeles National Forests back in the 1940’s.

          Which is why Bob has a lot more experience with fighting fire in subdivisions in Wildland/Urban Interface Zones that a lot of other wildland firefighters do. California tips the scales on everything. And as with everything I say, there are exceptions and I usually speak in generalities. For example, CAL Fire is unlike any other state wildland firefighting organization because they really are a BIG DOG…WOOF! My region, Region 3 was number two in the wildfire world…so we had to try harder than those sissies in R-5.

          So…now that you have the back story, I can finally get to NEIL’S experience, which has been a bone of contention among old fire dogs who email me and myself for some time now, so I am finally going to address the issue…head on. There are exceptions with wildland firefighters who work for the National Park Service, such as those who work in California and have mutual aid agreements with neighbors like CAL Fire, but in general the National Park Service (NPS) is not a very highly thought of, or respected wildland firefighting agency, even though all of their good wildland firefighters are ex-USFS.

          They lead all other federal land management agencies in most other areas, including their law enforcement program…but not if fire. The NPS hotshot crews are also exceptions to this rule and there are some others, but not very many.

          While I was going to college, my “fire seasons” were as short as 3 months and that is not uncommon. I also have to take issue with her experience as a “Incident Command Post radio operator,” and “Fire Use Module member.” The last one I think means she was certified to work on control burns and maybe burn out or back fires as a crew member and the first one means she was qualified to talk on a radio in fire camp.

          NEILL also claims “contract experience includes safety liaison for a federally contracted timber faller organization and B certified contract faller” and since I have picked up her husband is a highly qualified and very experienced logger and contract “faller” (teams who go through fire areas generally after the fire is controlled dropping hazard trees and snags by the dozens if not hundreds). The experience that NEILL is claiming in this area could also really cloud (make it very easy to exaggerate) her experience, since going out on one fire for one shift could technically count as having worked a “season.”

          And for you taxpayers out there, don’t worry. Uncle Sam, like everything when it comes to personnel issues has this wired pretty tight. If you work for one day, it counts for one day. And you have to work for 30 days, for those days to count as one month, even if it takes you 10 years to get there. You have to work twelve, 30 day periods for it to count for one year (towards retirement or other benefits).

          And all of this explains why I retired with 30 (12 month) years even though it took me more than 30 years to get there. Side note: Once you get to be permanent full-time, you can buy back your time as a temporary employee but you have to pay what you would have paid into the retirement system at the time…plus interest, which can really add up after a few decades.

          Finally…I have the biggest problem with the fact that NEILL claims to be “retired.” I just don’t see how that is possible. As I have mentioned before, I was offered a medical disability retirement for issues related to smoke inhalation which ended my hotshot career.

          BUT…that was after years of serious and well documented health problems with extensive medical tests and doctors visits, treatments and many witness and supervisor written statements that had been painstakingly collected over the years by personnel and myself in my Official Personnel Folder (OPF). I had (and still do) have OPF files that are as thick as the old Encyclopedia Britannica S volume on nothing but my medical problems with smoke inhalation.

          In other words, you can add “medical disability retirements” to the long list of things the federal government does not hand out very often, very easily, to very many people, for very many reasons. In other words, I don’t believe NEILL has one of those. If she does, than I am prepared to be corrected.

          Other than that, the only way to “retire” with a “public safety” (firefighter and law enforcement officer…early retirement) retirement from the federal government is to work for 20 years with 12 months in each years and 30 days in each month, and then you don’t get to start collecting any money until your 50th birthday.

          The bottom line is that I don’t believe NEILL “retired” as a wildland firefighter, I think NEILL “quit” as a wildland firefighter. Furthermore, I think NEILL worked for only a few months on an engine crew and helitack crew and she may or may not have seen any wildfire of any consequence during that period of time depending on where she worked and exactly what she did. So…I’m afraid that I am going to have to throw down the bullshit card on NEILLS wildland firefighting experience, end of story (Fargo).

          Reply

        • Reading. Copying.

          It’s been a brutally hard week for me.

          Feeling a need to honor you and Gary’s pursuing of this by responding.

          I have really appreciated Holly’s and SafetyMatter’s challenging of the USFS and the Powers That Be on the Up Side. Even as I have kept saying ‘LOOK UP” on this fire, even to the point of scrabbling into that whole “Hail Mary Plan” that, if Calvin hadn’t kept being the squeaky wheel about what happened with the dozer and it’s operator, we might have missed.

          Holly Neill is, IMHO, challenging how the USFS et al are prioritizing how wildland fires are being fought. Which leads into our conversations about the Twisp Fire and the Butte Fire. I believe the questions she is asking about this stuff are valuable and valid.

          On the other hand, I do believe that she is woefully MISTAKEN regarding what she is currently saying about the Yarnell Fire at this time..

          Regarding whether Eric was actually functioning as a real Lookout, whether he made it to the Boulder Springs Ranch, and whether any sawyers that may or may not have accompanied him could have had time to have done any of the cuttings she is looking at, all things considered.

          i just don’t see it.

          Holly I hope you are still reading this.

          Even though, you, as well as, apparently many others, like to brand us a just a bunch of conspiracy theorists.

          Ever post I have ever made here has been based on as honest of an evaluation of the evidence as I have been able to possibly evaluate that. And every time I have written anything pushing the envelope, I have said, “Please, if I am wrong, give me some evidence to disprove me.”

          Reply

          • Reply to Marti Reed post on September 26, 2015 at 10:38 pm

            >> Marti said…
            >>
            >> Reading. Copying.
            >>
            >> It’s been a brutally hard week for me.

            Sorry to hear, Marti.

            Winston Churchill quote comin’ at ya…

            “Whenever you find yourself going through hell… just KEEP GOING”.

            >> Marti also said…
            >>
            >> I have really appreciated Holly’s and SafetyMatter’s
            >> challenging of the USFS and the Powers That Be on the
            >> Up Side. Even as I have kept saying ‘LOOK UP” on this fire,
            >> even to the point of scrabbling into that whole “Hail Mary
            >> Plan” that, if Calvin hadn’t kept being the squeaky wheel
            >> about what happened with the dozer and it’s operator, we
            >> might have missed.

            Calvin was/is/always will be… a “Steely Eyed Rocket Man”.

            He never fully believed the ‘push’ theory.

            I have to admit that I DID… but I now know why.

            It was absolutely inconceivable ( to me ) that Eric Marsh could have been out AHEAD of those men that day and ‘scouting’ that route… and *might* have been in a position to see what a mistake was being made… and they all still ended up burning to death, anyway.

            A part of me still doesn’t even want to believe it.

            A part of me still wants to see/hear more PROOF ( like more people with some guts to say what was happening or what they were hearing ) before I will fully believe it.

            >> Marti also said…
            >>
            >> Holly Neill is, IMHO, challenging how the USFS et al are
            >> prioritizing how wildland fires are being fought. Which leads
            >> into our conversations about the Twisp Fire and the
            >> Butte Fire. I believe the questions she is asking about this
            >> stuff are valuable and valid.

            Holly Neill’s Facebook page associated with her ‘Safety Matters’ group does mention the Twisp Fire… but there are no serious ‘questions’ being asked ( yet ) by this group regarding the obvious question ( which is the same one as Yarnell )…

            What in the hell were those men even DOING being where they were, WHEN they were there?

            WHO TOLD THEM that was where they were supposed to be?

            >> Marti also said…
            >>
            >> On the other hand, I do believe that she is woefully MISTAKEN
            >> regarding what she is currently saying about the Yarnell Fire at
            >> this time..
            >>
            >> Regarding whether Eric was actually functioning as a real
            >> Lookout, whether he made it to the Boulder Springs Ranch, and
            >> whether any sawyers that may or may not have accompanied
            >> him could have had time to have done any of the cuttings she
            >> is looking at, all things considered.
            >>
            >> i just don’t see it.

            See new post below about Juliann Ashcraft’s visit with Holly Neill as part of Ashcraft’s ‘Be Better’ nationwide tour in the 1983 Greyhound Bus she bought and converted to a ‘land yacht’…

            http://www.investigativemedia.com/yarnell-hill-fire-chapter-xvi/#comment-308878

            There seems to be every likelihood that that same spew that Holly Neill recently tried to put forth publicly is exactly what she is telling the ‘family members’… and they are BELIEVING her.

            I am with Bob Powers on this.

            Until she starts presenting a better case ( in public ) to support her ‘opinions’… or at least lets some REAL EXPERTS take a look at things she might have believed she has ‘found’… then there is every likelihood that she is just trying to make the evidence fit her OWN ‘narrative’ and her OWN ‘agenda’.

            For good, bad or ugly… at least that is what happens HERE.

            Reply

            • To be clear… when I said…

              “For good, bad or ugly… at least that is what happens HERE”.

              I meant that we have ALL been subject to the ‘meat grinder’ here, and the sharp eyes/ears/intellect of others.

              And that is as it should be.

              Whatever it is Holly Neill thinks she has found or knows… she needs to be prepared to have it ‘challenged’.

              If she just waits until Maclean publishes her ‘findings’ in some book… that could end up being a big mistake.

              Reply

        • Reply to Gary Olson post on September 26, 2015 at 7:14 pm

          >> Gary Olson said…
          >>
          >> The bottom line is that I don’t believe NEILL “retired” as a wildland
          >> firefighter, I think NEILL “quit” as a wildland firefighter. Furthermore,
          >> I think NEILL worked for only a few months on an engine crew and
          >> helitack crew and she may or may not have seen any wildfire of any
          >> consequence during that period of time depending on where she
          >> worked and exactly what she did. So…I’m afraid that I am going to
          >> have to throw down the bullshit card on NEILLS wildland firefighting
          >> experience, end of story (Fargo).

          A wealth of REAL information up above, Gary. Thank you.

          And yes… if I can work ‘part time’ for someone for just 12 years and then actually ‘retire’ ( in the accepted sense of that word ) with something like a pension and/or benefits…

          …then I ( all of us? ) have obviously made the wrong career choice(s).

          12 years of part-time work to earn an official RETIREMENT?

          Sign. Me. Up.

          ** MORE HOLLY NEILL AND WFGI ‘INVESTIGATING’….

          As long as we are hitting on this topic of Holly Neill being the ONLY ‘Board Member’ shared between the ‘Safety Matters’ organization and the newly formed ‘Wildland Firefighter Guardian Institute’…

          …here’s an addendum.

          Juliann Ashcraft is currently ‘on the road’ and touring the entire country ( all 50 states, supposedly ) in the 1983 Greyhound Bus that she bought and converted to an RV camper doing her “Be Better” tour.

          She created a special online BLOG to report about all her travels ( with all four of her children ).

          The BLOG begins in April of 2015, around April 16, and 10 days later, on April 26, 2015, one of the first ‘stops’ for this ‘tour’ was at the home of Holly Neill and her husband Wayne in Farmington, New Mexico.

          Juliann Aschcraft’s full BLOG from that visit is HERE…

          http://bebetterbrigade.blogspot.com/2015/04/holly-and-wayne-farmington-nm.html

          From that BLOG entry…
          ———————————————————————–
          Holly was a wildland firefighter for twelve years. She is an unbelievably strong, determined, ambitious, and highly capable woman. In an incredible twist of fate, Wayne and Holly met on an assignment fighting wildfire. They met, sparks flew (pun totally intended), and so began their love for one another and their life together. They are quite the dynamic duo.

          Throughout the years, Holly and Wayne have been closely associated with several incidents involving wildland firefighting fatalities. They have lost brothers amidst the blaze and have been affected by the grief that follows such a tragedy. Storm King was among those fires, and afterwards, Holly and Wayne reached out and took an active role in assisting the families of those who were lost.

          Likewise, they immediately became involved when they learned that our men died on June 30, 2013.

          Since that time, and throughout the past two years, Holly and Wayne have been completely engaged and committed to finding the truth.

          Holly told me that there hasn’t been a single day since the Incident Report was released with the initial “findings” that she hasn’t been researching all of our unanswered questions. With their knowledge of fire behavior, the operations and procedures on a fire line, the dynamics of a hotshot crew, and the purpose of incident command, they have expert knowledge in areas that others of us did not. At a time when the family members who were seeking the truth were solely carrying the weight of sorting through all the cover-ups and deceit, and being overcome with desire for understanding, Holly and Wayne offered a much needed helping hand.

          Holly has walked the path taken by our own GMIHC in Yarnell, over and over again…taking note of anything that may lead to a better understanding of the events that took place there that fateful day. She has been a beacon of hope that the truth will unravel as she has uncovered many pieces of information that have already assisted in more closure and more healing for our family. Because of the immense work Holly and Wayne have put into discovering the truth, I believe that one day I will be able to tell my children the facts about what happened to their Daddy and his 18 friends and why they didn’t come home to us.

          Holly allowed me to pick at her brain and ask countless questions during our visit. Without fail, I feel empowered, hopeful, and a sense of peace whenever I speak to her. She is a true blessing and a dear friend
          ————————————————————————

          A few select ‘quotes’…

          >> Juliann Ashcraft wrote…
          >>
          >> At a time when the family members who were seeking the
          >> truth were SOLELY carrying the weight of sorting through all the
          >> cover-ups and deceit, and being overcome with desire for
          >> understanding, Holly and Wayne offered a much needed
          >> helping hand.

          Juliann must be referring to the same timeframe when a man named John Dougherty was expending immense amounts of time, energy, resources and bandwidth to also try to make sure the family members could find out more than was in the published reports.

          Not to mention a large amount of public volunteers spending equally huge amounts of time comparing that evidence to the published reports.

          >> Juliann Aschcraft also wrote…
          >>
          >> Since that time, and throughout the past two years, Holly and Wayne
          >> have been completely engaged and committed to finding the truth.

          As have a WHOLE lot of ‘other people’.

          >> Juliann Aschcraft also wrote…
          >>
          >> With their knowledge of fire behavior, the operations and procedures
          >> on a fire line, the dynamics of a hotshot crew, and the purpose of
          >> incident command, they have expert knowledge in areas that
          >> others of us did not.

          Mayne… maybe not. Still haven’t really seen the “full, detailed resume’s” for either one of these ‘experts’.

          >> Juliann Ashcraft also wrote…
          >>
          >> She ( Holly ) has been a beacon of hope that the truth will unravel
          >> as she has uncovered many pieces of information that have already
          >> assisted in more closure and more healing for our family.

          Such as?

          >> Juliann Ashcraft also wrote…
          >>
          >> Holly allowed me to pick at her brain and ask countless
          >> questions during our visit.

          Such as?

          >> Juliann Aschcraft also wrote…
          >>
          >> I believe that one day I will be able to tell my children the facts
          >> about what happened to their Daddy and his 18 friends and why
          >> they didn’t come home to us.

          I wonder if Holly Neill took any time to explain to her exactly WHEN whatever the heck it is she has been doing and/or any ‘conclusions’ she has come to will ever see the light of day?

          Is everything she is doing really just ‘contract work’ for John Maclean?… and NONE of this ‘diligent research’ will ever see the light of day until whenever the heck it is that Mr. Maclean decides to publish something?

          Just curious.

          >> Juliann Aschcraft also wrote…
          >>
          >> Without fail, I feel empowered, hopeful, and a sense of peace
          >> whenever I speak to her.

          I take this to mean that ‘without fail’… Juliann Aschcraft simply believes every word that comes out of Holly Neill’s mouth whenever she talks with her.

          Since we don’t know WHAT Holly Neill is actually TELLING Juliann… it’s hard to say whether any of it needs to be subject to more review or scrutiny.

          Best guess would be ‘probably’.

          This is still the woman ( Neill ) who absolutely believed that Eric Marsh had taken sawyers with him just based on one of Christopher MacKenzie’s photos showing FFs with saws exiting the RIGHT frame of the photograph. She didn’t even bother to check ( before publishing her opinion as fact ) that the same men were then captured in other photos, proving they had NOT left that ‘rest spot’ area.

          As far as Juliann ‘believing’ everything Holly Neill might be telling her… a familiar quote comes to mind…

          “It’s not what they don’t know that bothers me…
          It’s what they know fer sure that just ain’t so.”
          Mark Twain

          If Holly Neill is telling Granite Mountain Hotshot family members ( in isolation without any other input or vetting ) what she recently tried to profess in public… that she has evidence that “LCES was taken care of that day… something else must have gone wrong”…

          Well… what can I say.

          Wait a minute… I DO know what to say.

          That’s her own ‘agenda’ fulfilling HORSESHIT… and she is doing a DISSERVICE to those family members by pushing it on them as the TRUTH.

          ** POSTSCRIPT

          There were only two comments left on this BLOG entry about Juliann’s visit with Holly Neill and her husband Wayne.

          One of them was from “Wildland Firefighter Guardian Institute” co-founder Deborah Pfingston.

          ————————————————————————–
          Comment from: Deborah Pfingston – April 30, 2015 at 7:32 AM

          Holly and Wayne are amazing!! Truth will prevail. I am so glad that
          all of you were able to spend a day together. Love all of you.
          —————————————————————————

          ** THE BOTTOM LINE

          Do I ( personally ) HOPE that this Holly Neill person HAS discovered some things that the investigations did not… and that there might come some time in the unknown future when she decides to stop treating it all like some military secret… and only subject to her own personal distribution list?

          You dam betcha.

          Do I also ( personally ) think that because of her past track record of wrong ( published ) assumptions that whatever she is pushing off on family members as the TRUTH ought to be subject to more ‘vetting’ from some (other) REAL EXPERTS?

          You double damn betcha.

          Reply

          • Ya, I read this one too, which just about made me want to throw up. WTF…Over? Just one more of my buttons.

            FYI – I now know that NEILL spent her time with the NPS on an engine (at least) at Zion National Park. Within that park, she MAY have put out a few campfires that were left unattended or hiked to a snag burning on a ridge from a lighting strike…maybe?

            The area around Zion is not known for large or severe wildfires. Did she ever go with an engine to New Mexico, Colorado, Arizona or California to fight a real wildfire…maybe? But I doubt it.

            Every wildland firefighter keeps a detailed firefighting experience log, with fire, assignment, size, dates, etc.

            I will show her mine, if she will show me hers.

            Reply

            • And… as you await your recording of that ‘railroad job’ that was done on Joy Collura in a Prescott courtroom… I suppose the little ‘factoid’ above didn’t miss your gaze…

              >> Juliann Ashcraft said…
              >>
              >> Holly has walked the path taken by our own GMIHC in
              >> Yarnell, over and over again…taking note of anything that
              >> may lead to a better understanding of the events that
              >> took place there that fateful day.

              So… that would differ ( in ANY way ) from what the amazing Joy Colura was doing… in WHAT WAY?

              Oh.. I forgot… could it be… the BIBLE way?

              Missus Leviticus actually commented on Juliann’s report about Holly ‘constantly hiking the closed land’ with this…

              ————————————————————————–
              Comment from: Deborah Pfingston – April 30, 2015 at 7:32 AM

              Holly and Wayne are amazing!! Truth will prevail. I am so glad that
              all of you were able to spend a day together. Love all of you.
              —————————————————————————

              This story just continues to ‘write itself’… doesn’t it?

              Reply

              • By the way…

                Speaking of ‘this story keeps writing itself’…

                This former Granite Mountain Hotshot squad leader ( Doug Harwood ) who is now appearing as a ‘Board Member’ on this Pfingston/Aschcraft/Warneke “Wildland Firefighter Guardian Institute’ thing… appears to be ( just like other members of GM ) a ‘Youth Minister’ at a local non-denominational charismatic Christian Church there in Prescott.

                ** PRESCOTT’S ‘UNITY’ CHURCH

                Former Granite Mountain Squad Boss ‘Doug Harwood’ seems to be a member of the non-denominational ( Christian ) ‘Unity’ Church in Prescott.

                Unity of Prescot – A Positive Path for Spiritual Living
                145 S. Arizona Ave.
                Prescott, AZ 86303
                928-445-1850
                http://unityprescott.org

                He shows up in their publicly-published ‘Connections’ PDF Newsletter, especially in their January and June 2015 publication(s).

                As of June, 2015, this newsletter reports Doug Harwood ( and his wife Jessica ) as being YOUTH MINISTERS for this ‘Unity’ Church.

                This ‘Unity’ deal is one of those ‘home grown’ Christianity things, also known as “non-denominational, charismatic churches”.

                Some call them ‘Butler’ denominations… since they seem to usually use the all-steel ‘Butler Buildings’ when they get around to building their own church(es).

                This one is run by someone who was raised in the Catholic flavor, then switched to the Episcopalian flavor, then decided she wanted to run her OWN ‘flavor’.

                Reply

              • Bingo, I have always very strongly felt there should not be different sets of rules for different people, which is why I always had such a problem with management.

                There was the way they were supposed to do it and the manual said they should right up until they didn’t want to do it that way and they did any fucking thing they wanted to do.

                Which is exactly what the Radical Christian Fundamentalist Coalition has been doing with the blessing and the support of the Dark Lord of Arizona State Trust Lands.

                Reply

  92. Joy is unhappy with me. I don’t believe however, that I have hurt Joy in any way, nor do I believe that I will hurt her by publishing the CD from her hearing with the Kangaroo Court in Everybody’s Home Town. In fact, I believe that I will help Joy by shining the light on what has happened to her. Extremists and people who play fast and loose with the system are more successful when they work in the shadows.

    Nothing about what happened to Joy makes any logical sense. And as you probably know by now, I spent more than 30 years working in resource land management with about 25 years working in law enforcement as a uniformed deputy sheriff for Coconino County, as the Forest (Chief) Law Enforcement Officer for the Santa Fe National Forest and as a supervisory criminal investigator (Senior Special Agent) for the BLM. In all of those capacities, I worked with all aspects of the legal system including prosecuting attorneys, defense attorneys, judges and the court systems at the local, state and federal levels.

    Furthermore, I believe radical Christian Fundamentalism played a major role in the culture of the GMIHC and in most, if not all of their daily decisions which included those made on the Yarnell Hill Fire. The email that I posted here on this thread from Mrs. Pfingston proves that theory. The email from Joy back to them only proves that Joy is an honest, open, friendly, helpful, and most of all, an inclusive person. Being an inclusive person is what resulted in Joy being banned from what she enjoys the most…hiking in the God forsaken high desert around Yarnell that includes Arizona State Trust Lands. And just to be clear…I love the desert, especially the Sonoran Desert. The land around Yarnell is without a doubt…God forsaken country.

    In addition, as “that guy”, I also made public Eric Marsh’s sordid history with drug and alcohol abuse on the fire line as a supervisor with a hotshot crew which should have precluded him from ever holding a position of responsibility on a hotshot crew again. Furthermore, this work history made Marsh susceptible to “blackmail” in many forms from Darrell Willis and possibly others. There are some things in life you don’t get do-over’s on, and that is one of them.

    Now…lots of people have contacted me and have provided me with details pertaining to the GMIHC and they have requested to remain anonymous and I have religiously respected their anonymity and I will continue to do so. But Joy did not, and besides, I only published the emails from the Pfingstons, except for Joy’s reply to Mr. Pfingston, which once again, only revealed that Joy is a good person who was trying to do the right thing by the Pfingstons and be inclusive, which was her downfall.

    Some things are just too important in helping us understand why the GMIHC died for me to keep to myself. I checked the number of page viewers on this blog early last year and it was around 30,000 a day. I have checked it recently a couple of times and we are down to about 1200 or so per day. I don’t how many of those are “unique” page viewers and how many of them are readers who may check the site 2 or 3 times a day to see if there is something new. JD probably does through his website statistical tracker, but in any case I think we are down to the hard core readers who really care about what happened on the Yarnell Hill Fire.

    These readers almost certainly include some of those who loved the GMIHC and wildland firefighters. And so, I want to make one thing perfectly clear from my perspective, which I have stated many times before, but it has been awhile since I have done so. Since you have been following this blog, or thread or experiment in social media, you have read references to many disaster fires that resulted in wildland firefighter fatalities. The Loop, the Battlement Creek, the Mann Gulch, the South Canyon, the Rattlesnake, the Thirtymile, the Esperanza and now the Twisp along with several others. All of these wildfires and so many more were deadly tragedies, and to some extent simply the cost of doing business in an inherently dangerous job. In fact, I believe that all wildfires with fatalities before and since the Yarnell Hill Fire fit statistically within firmly established and well known parameters.

    The mainstream media with their talking heads, politicians, civic leaders, the SAIT, the agencies involved, and many other people have tried to portray, and very successfully I might add, the Yarnell Hill Fire as being just one more disaster fire. A wildfire that although it was certainly tragic, it was just like all other disaster wildfires that came before it and can be explained away as “sometimes bad things happen to good people” and therefore, it was understandable and to some extent…acceptable. Let’s bury the dead, grieve for them, build a memorial to them and move on to the next one. This is all a big lie.

    The Yarnell Hill Fire and what happened to the Granite Mountain Interagency Hotshot Crew was not the result of just one more disaster fire that can be explained using any of the standard templates. Please let me make one thing perfectly clear…the Yarnell Hill Fire was off the fucking charts. All of them.

    Reply

    • If Joy is unhappy with you, then I am sorry she feels that way.

      While I am only one person, engaged in speaking for just myself … still, I would like you to know that I am someone who hopes there really is nothing that will stop you from “running that lead down.”

      Reply

    • Thank you, Gary, and I hope Joy gets over being mad at you.

      She may have just misunderstood some things you said. You kind of came down on her hard and she may have reacted to that.

      Sometimes you and I have locked horns, also, and even so, I have realized we are basically on the same page. Even tho I tend to be “nicer,” unless I’m on a rant and I’m not “nice,” and you tend to be more jack-hammerish.

      I have to say, when I first started writing about Paul Musser being in on implementing the ‘Hail Mary Plan,” I was both jaw-dropped and a little bit scared. I was like, “I could get absolutely creamed for this!!” And I expected to be. But that’s what I was seeing, and that’s why I said to the world, “Please prove me wrong on this!!”

      And nobody has. Nobody has been able or willing to provide me with one fact that proves me wrong on my revelation that Paul Musser was involved in a fatally dangerous Last Ditch Last Minute Hail Mary Plan to put in a dozer line above Glen Isla, hopefully burned out by the Granite Mountain Hotshots, possibly (ala WTKTT) envisioned in the first place by Eric Marsh, and seconded by Gary Cordes, that got the Granite Mountain Hotshots burned over alive, and, then, covered up by the SAIT, sealed in an envelope and stashed away in a very large file cabinet, along with a bunch of other things, cough cough.

      And repetitively writing that, I have to say, has almost scared the sh*t out of me, and I really don’t know why. So having experienced that, I really appreciate your willingness and commitment to stay here and say, in you jack-hammerish way, exactly what you see going on in all of this.

      There are lives on the line. There are people in the balance.

      What you and WTKTT have been doing is really great and really in support of Joy. She has gotten really screwed and you are trying to figure that out and fight back against it. I hope Joy is, after settling down a bit, able to understand that. She’s smart, and I think she will.

      There is absolutely no reason why she should be experiencing the shackles she is experiencing, except for the personal irritations of certain members of the GMIHC families who are exercising more influence than they should be legally able to influence over the public and the rights of the public.

      I think Joy will get this. And we’ll all get together eventually in Yarnell, or wherever, and hug and talk and tear up and and talk some more and connect in a more personal way.

      It’s too bad the consequences of all the with-held knowledge and evidence are so divisive. We are fighting with each other over scraps of things that should have long ago been released to the public. Regardless of that stupid law Maria Cantwell short-sightedly got passed.

      I’m really supportive of going after this, and I really thank you and WTKTT for doing this. And I think, eventually, Joy will also.

      The truth will set you free, even though it will first make you REALLY uncomfortable.

      Namaste.

      Reply

      • Oh, and by the way. I never believed you ever thought Donut was a “hero.” I’m not that intellectually incapacitated. So you didn’t need to explain that to me. But the fact that you did so is all OK. I understand the limitations of this medium.

        I actually loved your description of Donut a the “hapless hero.” I understood exactly what you meant by that, and I thought it was PERFECT.

        Unfortunately, apparently, a lot of other people are casting him in that light. Poor poor pitiful hero Donut. He’s never ever been a hero in my eyes, as I’ve explained.

        But I still do believe he deserves an intervention. Even if he fits the dictionary definition of a sociopath, which you wrote, and I’ve been contemplating.

        I, as a once-upon-a-time United Church of Christ (seriously Liberal Left-Wing denomination) Youth Minister, and, later, Outreach MInister for the New Mexico Conference of Church’s Affordable Housing Project, see him as being, possibly sociopathically inclined right now, given his seeming inability to distinguish between what is right and what is wrong; but I’m also looking at that in the context of this whole cluster-f*ck of a fire, in which a WHOLE lot of people seem to not be being able to determine the difference between what is right and what is wrong.

        And so, as I see it, he is swimming in that sea, but he is OBVIOUSLY not the ONLY one.

        So I tend to have a teensy weensy bit more sympathy towards Donut than you and WTKTT have, and a WHOLE lot more anger towards all the other ADULTS IN THE ROOM who are either playing the SAME GAME he is, or are, seemingly ignoring the fact that this young man needs HELP and not more exploitation (which is what, in fact, he is getting from them).

        So that’s my take on Donut, currently. I really really really wish something would cause him to get some frickin’ HELP!!!

        Namaste.

        Reply

          • Well OK good, I am certainly happy that you are not that intellectually incapacitated, but you do know what science says about the effects of cannabis on the human brain…hee. hee.

            None of that made any science to me at all so I guess I can go back to calling him our hapless hero, which is kinder that dumb ass jerk off.

            Reply

            • What did anything I wrote have anything to do with cannabis, which I don’t use?

              What I’m saying is that Donur, the (your perfect term) hapless “hero” needs some kind of frickin’ intervention because he is, apparently, becoming addicted to what seems to be a status-filled position ( of being The One And Only Survivor Among His Heroic Dead Brothers) that is being supported and exploited by a whole lot of other people who should be acting as some kind of “Adults In The Room” but AREN’T.

              Whether or not his addiction has anything to do with cannabis has absolutely nothing to do with what I am saying, although, I have to admit, the issue of Donut’s addiction to any addictive substances might be something someone might want to be considered, all things considered.

              But that wasn’t my point. My point was, and has been since WAY BACK in January-ish of 2014, that Brendan McDonough needs, for his own mental and emotional integrity and well-being, to tell the truth of his story, and that ALL of the MANY PEOPLE who are EXPLOITING his unwillingness to do so (including Bill Gabbert whose work I have, until this episode, respected) are just as frickin’ guilty in this whole cluster-f*ck as he is.

              Does THAT make sense?? Since, apparently, what I wrote above, although it made total sense to me, didn’t make sense to you, to the point that you had to insert some kind of weird reference to cannabis into it.

              Sheesh.

              I still love you, Gary!!!!!!!

              Reply

              • So maybe what I’m trying to say to you, Gary, is that maybe you should read what other people write a bit more carefully??

                I confess that I used to get all impatient and frustrated with a bunch of the stuff Joy wrote. But, then, I’m somebody who, by virtue of my occupation and education and training and experience, has had to spend a WHOLE LOT OF TIME figuring out how to write in certain kinds of ways so that my AUDIENCE (who were also paying my salary) got my point/points.

                It’s not always that easy or natural to do. I used to write for Lowell Observatory, in order to communicate to the public what they were doing. Sort of like trying to write this stuff. It was not easy!!!

                I don’t even remotely think writing this stuff is easy. It hasn’t been easy for me, and I”ve been a professional writer.

                So I just started reading Joy’s posts out loud, as well as others, trying to humbly comprehend what they were trying to say, from inside of themselves. And what I found was Joy saying a whole lot of really important stuff.

                That’s how I’m trying to read what people are trying to write here.

                Reply

              • I didn’t say cannabis had anything to do with you. I just said that cannabis (along with alcohol) can lead to intellectually incapacitation just as it has in many of those who majored in anthropology and archaeology in college.

                In addition to being a counter drug agent, I was considered by many to be one of the leading ARPA investigators in the nation since I was the Coordinator of the interagency national ARPA Task Force when it was funded by Congress. And in this capacity, I got to know a lot of anthropologists and archeologists and I heard a lot of the stories and I have seen a lot of the photos of the digs being almost nothing but drunken drug fueled orgies where the women never wore any tops and very few (if any) other clothes.

                Plus I did grow up in Prescott about the time you were living your life at Prescott College and I know that if you were not a regular consumer of cannabis you were the only one who ever set foot on the Prescott College Campus who was not a far left wing liberal hippies which included all of (especially all of) the college professors, especially the ones who where world renowned anthropologists and archeologists.

                In addition to that fact, and having been both a long term resident of both Flagstaff and Albuquerque and having read many details about your resume and personal history which all SCREAM I am a far left wing liberal who if I don’t use cannabis on a regular basis, I am literally the only one in my circle of acquaintances who does not…the only question that anyone would have after studying your resume and background is when is the last time you used peyote?

                We are our resumes and if you don’t want anyone to crack stupid jokes about yours, I would suggest you change it because otherwise you are going to experience problems in life being painted with a broad brush that others with your background have worked so hard to earn.

                Here is my resume and background.

                https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I4lPaaWsib8

                Which I call 30 years in less than four minutes, or you can peruse my entire photographic resumes on my youtube channel here

                https://www.youtube.com/user/DeadEndPSA

                And if anybody looks at the videos, and comes up with the conclusion I am an asshole who had never even tried cannabis but could benefit from doing so, well…who would I be to argue with them?

                Like I said, I learned a long time ago to never ask the question I don’t want to know the answer to. But that doesn’t mean I don’t love you back.

                I used to hunt people with your background, now….I kind of like people like you. Free spirited, unencumbered by the bullshit that rules the lives of the rest of us who live inside the box. Any more questions?

                Reply

                  • Speaking of magic mushrooms, this video shows me raiding a nest of bikers who grew shrooms in ABQ to sell. I am with a bunch of my ATF buddies because so many illegal guns were involved..

                    Fucking bikers who grew this shit could be fucking dangerous people, but it all just part of the hunt. We all have to earn our highs.

                    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0GB5OZZdnCM

                    Reply

                    • And you know I’m just kidding right Marti? I am the class clown for this thread.

                      The only difference between me and that bombastic asshole Donald Trump is his money and the size of his audience.

                      Well, there are probably a few more differences as well, but those are the two big ones.

              • Reply to Marti Reed post on
                September 26, 2015 at 9:52 pm

                >> Marti said…
                >>
                >> My point was, and has been since WAY BACK
                >> in January-ish of 2014, that Brendan McDonough
                >> needs, for his own mental and emotional integrity
                >> and well-being, to tell the truth of his story, and
                >> that ALL of the MANY PEOPLE who are
                >> EXPLOITING his unwillingness to do so (including
                >> Bill Gabbert whose work I have, until this episode,
                >> respected) are just as frickin’ guilty in this whole
                >> cluster-f*ck as he is.

                Totally agree.

                I’m no therapist… but it really seems like most of the things Brendan has been ‘encouraged’ to do and participate in ( by who? ) would NOT be the things that MOST ‘licensed therapists’ would recommend.

                I still wonder of the ‘recovery group’ that Brendan was in wasn’t just that ‘Bible study’ group that Darrell Willis himself started at that Prescott Church ( and is also part of Willis’ BIO now at the “Wildline Firefighter Guardian Institute” ).

                Willis’ ‘Church’ sponsored ‘study group’ was entitled…
                “When Duty Wounds You” and it is BASED on that God-can-heal-you book entitled “The First Responders Healing Manual”.
                $17.99 ( if you order it online ).

                The exact quote ( the last paragraph of Willis’ BIO ) sitting on the “Wildland Firefighter Guardian Institute” website is…

                ———————————————————–
                Darrell is a member of the Prescott Salvation Army Board of Directors. He currently is a Board Director for the Granite Mountain Hotshots State Memorial Park and sits on both design and site access sub-committees. Darrell is active in his local church and facilitates a class on Healing for First Responders.
                ———————————————————–

                Willis first ‘advertised’ ( publicly ) this “Healing Group” he was going to run at his Church with an ‘inivitation’ published on the local Yavapai County Firefighters Union website…

                http://www.iafflocal3066.org/index.cfm?section=1

                ———————————————————–
                YOU ARE INVITED TO THE GROUP MEETING

                WHEN DUTY WOUNDS YOU
                The First Responder Healing Manual

                WHEN: Every Tuesday at 6:30 p.m.

                WHERE: The Heights Church at 2121 Larry Caldwell Drive Prescott, AZ 86301

                The healing Manuals are provided to you free of charge by: 100 Club of Arizona

                For more information Contact: Darrell Willis (928) 925-7311
                ———————————————————–

                It stands to reason that Brendan McDonough was ‘attending’ these ‘healing’ sessions being held by Willis… but there’s been no actual confirmation of that.

                I wonder if all this is going to be mentioned in Bredan’s BOOK, if/when it ever comes out.

                The ‘story’ of what has gone on with Brendan… and his reasons for withholding information from investigators is now as much a part of the ‘story’ of this tragedy ( and its aftermath ) as anything else is.

                Reply

                • By the way… the ‘100 Clubs’ that support Firefighters are just 501(C) non-profits… but here is THIS particular ‘100 Club’ offering to PAY for a book that offers a ‘Religion based PTSD Healing Path” for Firefighters…. and everyone in this particular ‘100 Club’ seems to be OK with that.

                  Reply

  93. Joy said,

    “Remember this when writing Gary…what if you went to a blog and you saw someone writing like you do on IM about your wife or even you and its not right…
    what would you think
    or feel or do when you are told to not say a thing at all…”

    Joy – You talk in riddles. Sometimes trying to make sense of what you say is like trying to nail Jello to the wall. I’m glad you brought up my dear wife, who I am continually telling, “if you do X you are going to possibly experience Y” For example, “if you go to a deserted park late at night to walk your dog, we may find you dead from blunt force trauma and with indicators of sexual assault.”

    Donut is going to have a very hard time outliving the consequences of his criminal activity and now his morally bankrupt behavior. It is very difficult to make a living by being a professional sad sack and victim. He will find that out soon enough. There are some things in life I know about, guns and knives are two of them.

    The knife company he is a spokesperson for makes low end junk knives and the blue shirts are going to get tired of listening to his bullshit sooner rather than later. I have a hard time believing he is able to walk down the streets of Prescott without people throwing beer bottles at him and I don’t think you could find a wildland firefighter to walk across the street to piss on him if he were on fire. So…

    I have experienced negative consequences for my participation in this blog that I have already mentioned. I lost my book editor, who I have not yet been able to replace, I lost my Jeep mechanics because they were a small family run business of Christian Fundamentalists who were tight with Darrell Wills and many on the GMIHC and I have lost friends within the wildland firefighting community and probably my emeritus status as well.

    I am not going to test that theory, because I learned a long time ago to never ask the question I don’t want to know the answer to, especially to a bunch of fellows like I described I met late at night in that run down dimly lit Taqueria. I don’t really need the Jeep mechanics anymore because I am now an ATVer and I live to far to go there to get them fixed anyway. But I still miss my book editor. In other words, my actions and words have had consequences.

    So do yours. You complained about your problem and then you complained about your problem, and then you complained about your problem, and then you complained about your problem and then you did it some more. And so one day I woke up and said to myself, “self, this situation with Joy and the Bible Thumpers and the Dark Lord of the Arizona State Trust Lands may be relevant to your investigation.”

    Now that I have identified your situation as possibly being relevant to my investigation, nothing is going to stop me from running that lead down. Not my friendship with you or my respect for what you have contributed to this thread and the overall situation to better understand why the GMIHC died.

    I sometimes give people fair warning about me, not often, but sometimes…as I have done on this blog several times. I am not a nice person. I am not looking to add to my Christmas card list. My nickname when I was working was the “Jackhammer” and it was not said in a nice way, as in, “why don’t you just let it go, you are like a fucking jackhammer.”

    The only thing that surprises me…is when people are surprised when I turn out not to be a nice person. If there is something between me and the answers I am looking for, I will go through it, over it, around it, or blow the fucking thing up. I didn’t go from being the second to last shovel on Squad 2 (which was the least important position on the entire crew, to where I was when I retired by giving up…ever). Any questions?

    Reply

    • Oh…and one more thing, I did get beat a lot, and beaten down often. In fact, by the time I got done, I felt like I had been run through a meat grinder. But losing is different than quitting. Losing is OK…quitting is not.

      Reply

  94. Reply to Marti Reed post on September 24, 2015 at 7:29 pm

    >> Marti said…
    >>
    >> Relying on Jesus will not protect you from the consequences of hiking down
    >> into a bowl full of potentially explosive manzanita with a wildfire heading
    >> directly at it from a quarter of a mile away because your temporary Crew
    >> Supervisor agrees (however unwillingly) to participate in a Hail Mary Last Ditch
    >> plan concocted by a combination of your normal Crew Supervisor who is
    >> your acting Division Supervisor and a Structure Protection Group Supervisor
    >> and an Operations Supervisor.

    Nor will he help you with your plans when ( as Brendan has now informed us ) you are ALREADY hiking ahead and ‘scouting’ out the travel path to fulfill that ‘Hail Mary” plan… but you do not even TELL your direct up-level Operations Supervisor ( Todd Abel ) that is exactly what you are doing when he talks to you on the radio at 3:50 PM and TELLS ( Orders ) you to just “Hunker and be safe”.

    >> Marti also said…
    >>
    >> Nothing Jesus may have said about “The Truth Shall Set Your Free” will ever
    >> trump the physics of the above composition.
    >>
    >> My brother learned that the hard way.
    >>
    >> Faith in Jesus needs to be excluded from decision-making on a wildfire.
    >> Along with personal emotional feelings about houses.
    >>
    >> So. Be. It.
    >>
    >> Why do I feel so sad?

    AZCENTRAL
    Yarnell Hill Fire fallen remembered: John Percin Jr.
    Published: Saturday, July 6, 2013 – 8:15 PM
    http://www.azcentral.com/news/arizona/articles/20130702john-percin-jr.html

    ————————————————————————
    John Percin Jr. started his last day with a prayer.

    “Lord, watch over us as we go into battle,” he posted on his
    Facebook page a little after 6 a.m. Sunday, June 30, 2013.

    It would be his last post.
    ————————————————————————

    John Percin Jr. was the one who replaced former GM Hotshot Brandon Bunch, who left GM in the middle of that 2013 fire season for personal reasons, just after the Thompson Ridge Fire.

    Brandon Bunch, himself, is the one who only lists 1 ‘Favorite Book’ on
    his own PUBLIC Facebook page.

    “The Bible”.

    Maybe John Percin Jr. should have had a ‘Postscript’ for his ‘prayer’ that morning…

    ————————————————————————————-
    “Oh… and by the way, Lord… if it’s not too much trouble… could you also
    make sure that the people we are going to work for today who are going
    to give us a “predetermined Safety Zone” over TWO MILES away from
    where they will have us working also bother to give us some fucking MAPS?
    Thanks in advance.
    ————————————————————————————-

    Reply

      • Oh and also I might add, as an Ordained Minister in the United Church of Christ with a Master’s Degree in Divinity……

        Prayers and Jesus and such aren’t going to protect you when NOBODY is paying any ATTENTION to the WEATHER FORECASTS.

        (And I have to say, probably even the more important degree I hold, in terms of my thinking, is a BA in Anthropology/Southwest Archaeology from Prescott College, from in the days when some of the most highly esteemed Anthropologists in the world were teaching there).

        Every time I officiated at/planned an Outdoor Wedding near Flagstaff (which I did A LOT of) I ALWAYS made sure the couple had a Bad Weather Plan B all planned out. Every time. Always.

        Hello???

        Jesus and prayers are not going to save you from what the weather is doing.

        I prayed for my dad when he was dying. That did not save him. I prayed for my mom when she was dying. That did not save her.

        I lit candles to my angels when my daughter was driving home from Eugene, Oregon, after she had graduated summa cum laude from the University of Oregon in 2009, on the day MIchael Jackson died. She had an accident near Big Sur while trying to avoid a deer who walked in front of her car.

        She screamed her car over into a ditch and came a quarter of an inch from slamming into a tree on the passenger side, and she had a passenger sitting there on that passenger side.

        She called me in the middle of the night, as I was sitting at my computer editing photos, and wondering if I should go to bed but not going to bed for some odd reason. She was in tears.

        They had walked from the car and, thankfully, found a small resort near Big Sur, and knocked on the door. They were, thankfully, welcomed there.

        Her windshield had been shattered, and a few dents in her car, and that was thankfully, and maybe even miraculously, the worst that had happened. She still drives that car. It is named “Puck.”

        Do I credit the angels I sense all around me (including from my understanding of Native American thinking) for having left Michael Jackson behind to gather near my daughter and her passenger to protectthem? Sometimes I do, I have to admit. I do sometimes have that weird kind of thinking.

        But I would never ever ever ever RELY on that.

        I’m also the daughter of science. I am 50% right brained and 50% left brained. I am an artist and I am a scientist. I was a feminist environmentalist theologian who also wrote for Lowell Observatory regarding cosmological evolution and spectroscopic imaging. I was raised by a 100% left-brained world-reknowned meteorologist who was the World’s Number One Expert on the Behavior of Shock Waves in the Atmosphere.

        Who, on the day of his grand-daughter’s birthday in 2007 (the year in which he died), ran around the corner and pounded on my door to say to me, “Marti, you’ve GOT TO come out and photograph that cloud over the Sandias!!!”

        And so I did and that cloud was shaped exactly like what everybody thinks a UFO looks like. Because my dad was, actually, quite interested in UFO’s, as he would tell me on some of the longer drives we sometimes did through New Mexico.

        This whole thing has been a dance all of my life. Faith and Reality. Art and Science. Spirit and Matter.

        But, as a frickin Girl Scout Leader, I would never ever ever ever walk a Troop of Girl Scouts down into that bowl of Manzanita with a wildfire headed towards it.

        And, as a guide on backpacking trips in the Grand Canyon, I would never ever ever ever ever lead a group of people out onto the edge of a ledge like my brother did in the Jemez when he was killed because of doing so. Never. Ever.

        I don’t know why he did it, but I didn’t need to know that why. I just learned from his fatal mistake not to do it.

        Thus the 10 and 18.

        Angels may be there. But don’t count on them. Physics still rule the Universe.

        Namaste.

        Reply

        • The concept at play here ( and being discussed ) is really quite simple… and even anthropology has a name for it.

          It’s called “Abdication of Responsibility”.

          ‘Abdication’ meaning ( in this context ) ” to give up or transfer”.

          To fire a gun into the air anywhere near a populated area, and then do a ‘Tim Tebow’ and take a knee and make a request to your “invisible friends” that no harm comes because of it does NOT relieve you of any responsibility for your actions.

          The LAW itself has its own name for such actions.

          It’s called “depraved indifference”.

          That’s what the LAW defines as doing things ( or even FAILING to do things ) that you know full well *might* result in serious injury or death… but you still do your own ” Fuck it… let’s go for it” in your own head and you go ahead anyway.

          Pray all you want that everything will still turn out OK… the LAW is not going to be impressed if people get hurt or die because of your “depraved indifference”.

          Reply

          • Exactly.

            And thank you, Baltimore Police Department, for teaching me what Depraved Indifference looks like, earlier this year.

            Reply

            • It’s also very likely this very real and very dangerous concept of “depraved indifference” is going to turn out being one of the primary reasons for the horrible deaths in Twisp, as well.

              Okanogan County Fire District 6 Chief Don Waller knew immediately upon reaching that scene that ALL of the residents of Woods Canyon Road needed to be evacuated as fast as possible. He went up there himself to do just that ( as early as 1:00 PM ) and has been quoted by as resident as yelling ( as he was pounding on her door )… “You have to get OUT of here RIGHT NOW or you are GOING TO DIE!”.

              Chief Waller also then appears to be the one who issued the clear directive ” DO NOT PROCEED UP WOODS CANYON ROAD” to ALL of the first responders over the radio.

              Chief Waller is also the one who seems to be captured in a radio call telling Dispatchers…”We can’t get resources up Woods Canyon Road. It’s too dangerous. There are no Safety Zones up there”.

              Yet… despite ALL of that… we end with any number of Engines and men up that road and now ABOVE the fire… and 3 of them end up dying one of the most horrible deaths anyone can imagine.

              Somewhere in this ‘other’ story I believe we are going to encounter the same kind of “depraved indifference” that led to those other horrible deaths in Yarnell.

              Reply

  95. **
    ** TWISP UPDATE
    **
    ** THE ‘ELDERLY MAN’ WHO SEEMED TO BE REFUSING TO LEAVE HIS HOUSE
    ** ON AUGUST 19, 2015 APPEARS TO BE A MAN NAMED ‘KENNETH DUNCAN’.

    Two important points here right off the bat…

    1) This information comes from a PUBLIC, ON-CAMERA interview that Mr. Kenneth Duncan himself agreed to for a reporter named Tom Yazwinski of Q13 FOX NEWS, which covers the Seattle/Tacoma, Washington viewer area.

    2) The reports that came over the scanner radio about an “ELDERLY MAN REFUSING TO LEAVE” all took place AFTER the first announcement of an ‘ENTRAPMENT ON WOODS CANYON ROAD”.

    There was no scanner radio traffic about anyone ‘refusing to leave’ their home or property PRIOR to any ENTRAPMENT radio traffic

    As you will see below… Mr. Kenneth Duncan appears to have been that ‘elderly man refusing to leave’, and some effort WAS made to try to protect his house and property… but his house and property were NOT up on ‘Woods Canyon Road’ at all. He ‘actually’ just owns the property there on the north side of the ‘Twisp River Drive’ just a few hundred yards EAST of where ‘Woods Canyon Road’ intersects with the ‘Twisp River Road’.

    ** THE ‘ELDERLY MAN REFUSING TO LEAVE’…

    Because of both radio scanner traffic captured in the Methow Valley ‘Facebook thread’ AND the actual reports from the ‘Associated Press’ about Dispatch radio traffic obtained via an FOIA about an “ELDERLY MAN REFUSING TO LEAVE”… there has been a rumor floating around that maybe this is why the FFs who ended up dead went up ‘Woods Canyon Road’.

    That does NOT appear to be the case. Read on.

    First off… here is a ‘cut’ from that original Methow Valley ‘Facebook’ thread where people listening to their own radio scanners were typing into the thread ( VERBATIM? ) what they were hearing over the radio the afternoon of August 19, 2015.

    NOTE: The convention being used on this Facebook thread was that when someone was typing in VERBATIM what they were hearing over the scanner radio… they would type that in using ALL CAPITAL LETTERS…

    ——————————————————————————————————-
    |02:56|002| ENTRAPMENT ON THE EAST FLANK ORDER LIFE FLIGHT
    |02:56|002| 6 MILES UP BURN VICTIM AERO METHOW CALLED
    |02:58|002| CLOSING ELBOW COLUEE AT TWISP RIVER ROAD. GOING TO JUMP THAT SECTION
    |02:58|002| FIRE MOVING EAST NORTH EAST DIRECTION OVER ELBOW COULEE.
    |02:59|002| ONE ELDERLY MAN REFUSING TO LEAVE
    ——————————————————————————————————-

    Notice that the FIRST reports about an ‘ELDERLY MAN REFUSING TO LEAVE’ were not appearing on the radio until 3 minutes AFTER the first reports about an ENTRAPMENT.

    Now here is what the ‘Associated Press’ published after obtaining some actual Okanogan County Dispatch records via a ‘Freedom Of Information’ ( FOI ) request…

    ——————————————————————————————————-
    2:56 p.m. — A local fire district calls for an ambulance for a burn victim, about 6 miles up the road.
    2:57 p.m. — Evacuations continue, an elderly resident refuses to leave his home, and a deputy warns dispatchers that the fire may jump over Twisp River Road, which in calmer conditions could serve as a natural firebreak.
    ——————————————————————————————————-

    Notice that the actual Okanogan County ‘Dispatch Notes’ match ( almost exactly ) the ENTRIES and the TIMES in the Facebook thread postings.

    So even the Associated Press ‘Dispatch Notes’ establish that the information about an ‘ELDERLY MAN REFUSING TO LEAVE’ didn’t appear until AFTER there had already been radio notifications about a ‘burn victim’ up on Woods Canyon Road.

    That ‘burn victim’ would turn out to be Daniel Lyon ( 25 years old ), who was sitting in the left-rear seat of Engine 642 ( from the Okanogan/Wenatchee National Forest ) that went off the shoulder of Woods Canyon Road… and he was found ‘wandering around’ OUTSIDE ( but still near ) the engine after it was burned over.

    So the TIMING here has never supported any ‘rumor’ that this ‘ELDERLY MAN REFUSING TO LEAVE’ was a situation that developed BEFORE any decision was made to send those men up onto ‘Woods Canyon Road’ into a position where they were ABOVE the fire with no valid ‘Safety Zones’ up there on Woods Canyon Road.

    That being said…

    It looks like there really WAS an ‘ELDERLY MAN REFUSING TO LEAVE’ after the wind changed and the full evacuation of everyone EAST of ‘Woods Canyon Road’ had been ordered… and there WAS ( then ) some major effort made by a group of Firefighters to try and protect his house there on the ‘Twisp River Road’.

    That man appears to have been Mr. Kenneth Duncan.

    ** THE ON-CAMERA INTERVIEW WITH KENNETH DUNCAN

    Just 48 hours after the Twisp / ‘Woods Canyon Road’ fatalities took place, Q13 FOX NEWS out of Seattle / Tacoma sent their reporter Tom Yazwinski to the site of the incident to see what he could find out.

    He was, apparently, not allowed to go up ‘Woods Canyon Road’ at all that day, so he started interviewing other people as close as possible to that point where ‘Woods Canyon Road’ intersects with the ‘Twisp River Road’.

    That’s when he found Mr. Kenneth Duncan, and got him to do an ON-CAMERA interview.

    He is an ELDERLY MAN who lives right there on the ‘Twisp River Road’ just a few hundred yards EAST of where ‘Woods Canyon Road’ intersects with it. He told the story about how hard Firefighters fought to save his house that day and how he didn’t (quote) “Have enough gratitude”. His house appears in the video… still standing… but with the vinyl siding partially melted.

    The PRINT article that appeared for this story makes absolutely NO MENTION of this ON-CAMERA interview with Mr. Kenneth Duncan. You can only hear what he said if you actually watch Tom Yazwinski’s ‘Field report’ video that accompanies the article.

    That original Q13 FOX NEWS story ( along with Tom Yazwinski’s on-camera interview with Kenneth Duncan ) is here…

    Q13 FOX NEWS
    Article Title: New details emerge about incident in
    which 3 firefighters died, 4 were injured
    Posted 9:06 AM, August 21, 2015, by Associated Press and Tom Yazwinski
    Updated at 09:57pm, August 21, 2015
    http://q13fox.com/2015/08/21/evacuation-levels-in-twisp-tonasket-reduced-to-level-2-fires-still-rage/

    Again… there is nothing in the print copy about Mr. Kenneth Duncan… but the video at the top of the page with the video title…

    “Latest on investigation into firefighters’ deaths in Wash.”

    …has clips in it from his on-camera interview with Tom Yazwinski.

    A full TRANSCRIPT of this video interview with Kenneth Duncan will be posted
    as a ‘Reply’ to this message.

    ( Continued next ‘Reply’ )…

    Reply

    • ( Continued from previous message )…

      ** TRANSCRIPT OF THE VIDEO THAT ACCOMPANIES
      ** THE Q13 FOX NEWS ARTICLE

      Since the interview with Kenneth Duncan ONLY appears in the VIDEO… here is a complete transcript of that VIDEO, beginning with even the ‘lead-in’ part from Q13 Studio News anchors: Matt Lorch and Jamie Tompkins…

      From the VIDEO published August 21, just 48 hours after the incident…
      ————————————————————————————
      +0:00
      Matt Lorch: Firefighters are now coming in from around the world to battle one of the worst fires in this state’s history. One of the biggest battles is in Okanogan County right now, where the Sheriff says it is so chaotic, he has no idea how many homes have been lost.

      Jamie Tompkins: And tonight we’re learning more about the fire that killed three heroic firefighters near Twisp. Authorities say three men tried to escape as the fire closed in on them, but the truck they were riding in went off a steep embankment and crashed.

      +0:19
      ( Video now seems to show the embankment itself, complete with some
      rocks showing obvious orange/red retardant residue ).

      Tom Yazwinski visited the crash scene today and has the very latest on the investigation.

      ( Video cuts to reporter Tom Yazwinski on-scene in Twisp )…

      +0:32
      Tom Yazwinski: The Okanogan County Sheriff says the death nvestigation into these firefighters will likely take several days. Investigators and neighbors all agree that the wind suddenly shifted and this deadly fire closed in fast.

      +0:45
      Sheriff Frank Rogers: Ya know… that… danger’s always there. It’s just… you hope it never happens… and when it does… it’s just… it’s tough.

      +0:51
      Tom Yazwinski: Investigators can’t release too many details about the deaths of three fearless firefighters killed this week. Sheriff Rogers said smoke and fire filled the area.

      +1:01
      Sheriff Frank Rogers: It… It’s just… I don’t know how you can describe it. It’s just intense.

      +1:05
      Tom Yazwinski: Suddenly, erratic winds shifted and flames surged towards firefighters.Tom Zbyszewski, Andrew Zajac and Richard Wheeler died after their truck went off the road and down a steep embankment on Woods Canyon Road. Then the fire overtook that truck.

      +1:07
      ( More video footage of the embankment and retardant-soaked rocks ).

      +1:22
      Tom Yazwinski: A witness says another truck barely made it out through the flames to safety.

      ( Video cuts to close-up interview with Woods Canyon Road resident Ken Duncan ).
      ( Video subtitle underneath this interview says: “Ken Duncan – Home saved by firefighters” ).

      +1:26
      Ken Duncan: When that fire changed directions it come fast and hot… and I think they just got trapped.

      ( Video now shows burned outbuildings on Ken Duncan’s property ).

      Tom Yazwinski: Ken Duncan lives right next to the scene. He witnessed the shifting winds sending flames towards his home, but firefighters stayed to fight the same blaze back that killed their partners.

      Duncan took these pictures of the scene.

      ( Two photographs are shown of the actual fireline the afternoon of August 19, 2015 ).

      The heat so intense it melted the siding of his home and burned several outbuildings.

      ( Video footage of the melted siding on Ken Duncan’s house appears ).

      Ken Duncan: I just don’t have enough gratitude. ( He chokes up for a moment ).
      It’s just… uh… they do a magnificent job.

      The Department of Natural Resources and U.S. Forest Service Teams combed through the scorched earth at the scene today, looking for answers.

      ( Video footage of investigators at the scene doing exactly that ).

      Investigators hope anyone who saw what happened will call with information.

      ( Video footage of the sign placed at the point where Woods Canyon Road meets the Twisp River Road which tells peoplel to call the U.S. Forest Service if they have any information about what STARTED the fire ).

      Until they know exactly what DID take place, there is little else for investigators to say.

      ( Video shows Sheriff Rogers again ).

      Sheriff Rogers: I feel sorry for the families. Tough stuff. It really is.

      Tom Yazwinski: Ken (Duncan) and his wife are so thankful that their property was saved… but they would’ve rather have seen it burn if it meant those firefighters had survived.

      In Okanogan County… Tom Yazwinski, Q13 FOX News.
      ————————————————————————————–
      END OF VIDEO TRANSCRIPT

      As it turns out… Kenneth Duncan’s property was NOT actually ‘up there’ on Woods Canyon Road.

      Kenneth ( and Paula ) Duncan’s property is right there on Twisp River Road itself, just BEFORE you actually reach the intersection where Woods Canyon road meets the Twisp River Road.

      From the PUBLIC Okanogan County Tax Assesors online system at…

      http://okanoganwa.mapsifter.com/default.aspx

      Okangoan County Parcel Number: 3321080051
      Owner: Duncan, Kenneth R. and Paula
      Situs: 570 Twisp River Road.

      There is a photo of Kenneth and Paula Duncan’s house attached to that public tax assesor’s record and it matches the house seen in the video that had the ‘melted siding’.

      The exact GPS coordinates for the ‘center’ of Kenneth Duncan’s house would be…

      48.381030, -120.240608

      If you cut-and-paste the line above ( including the comma ) into the search bar of Google Maps and hit ENTER, a map will appear with a ‘marker’ sitting right on the center of the roof of Kenneth Duncan’s house there on Twisp River Road.

      So with regards this THIS statement from reporter Tom Yazwinski…

      ——————————————————————————————–
      Tom Yazwinski: Ken (Duncan) and his wife are so thankful that their
      property was saved… but they would’ve rather have seen it burn
      if it meant those firefighters had survived.
      ——————————————————————————————–

      …there is NO REASON to believe that whoever the FFs were that made that effort to save Duncan’s property there on ‘Twisp River Road’ were, in any way, the same men who went up Woods Canyon Road ( 3 of whom died ).

      This VIDEO interview was only 48 hours after the incident and details were still emerging. Kenneth Duncan may have been THINKING that the same FFs who made this effort to save his house somehow ended up being the ones to go up Woods Canyon Road… but he, himself, could not have been fully aware of the TIMING at that point and it does NOT appear to be the case.

      It looks much more likely that this effort to save his house right there off the ‘Twisp River Road’ only came AFTER the WIND CHANGE and the immediate order to evacuate to the EAST of ‘Woods Canyon Road’… and only AFTER there had already been reports of a ‘burn victim’ ( Daniel Lyon ) wandering around’ near that already-crashed Engine 642 up on Woods Canyon Road.

      Reply

  96. And if anybody is wondering if I am worried about being sued by former MCA executives David Baumgarten, Roger Vorce and Harvey Litwin, who founded APA (Agency for the Performing Arts), I only have one thing to say, FUCK David Baumgarten, Roger Vorce and Harvey Litwin, who founded APA (Agency for the Performing Arts),”

    Reply

    • So, now we see that it is Brendan McDonough who has entered into a marriage with “Greed” … and just like Ms. Bonnie Raitt sings about, this one truly IS a “marriage made in Hollywood. “

      Reply

      • Yes, I seriously doubt if dumb ass jerk off cares whether he has my endorsement and support or not, but he would have had it had he simply have chosen to do the right thing from day one But he didn’t…and he still hasn’t. I understand that he made a series of bad choices early in life that left he with few options in the real world for many opportunities. And I imagine that at this point in his life he would much rather say, “I miss my brothers” for a living rather than “do you want fries with that.”

        I don’t believe those are his only two choices however, but the others will require a lot of hard work and several years to accomplish and he strikes me as a young man who still can’t tell, or refuses to tell, right from wrong. As I said way back at the very beginning, I thought he should have stayed with the PFD and they would have been forced through public opinion to do the right thing by him, even if their brotherly love for him wasn’t enough of a reason to help him turn his life around. And of course there has always been my favorite, go to Yavapai College and learn a good trade.

        After all, we currently have three Navy SEALS who have claimed to be The One who send Osama Bin Laden to hell. And they were part of the “Silent Service” would very much like to get that rep back.The two that have gone public and the third one who is backed by most people except for 60 Minutes, who backed the first one and Fox News who seemed to embrace the second “shoot and tell” SEAL.

        I am going with the SEAL the former Silent Service is backing, the one who says he will never identify himself publicly. That way, every SEAL can be The One in a grateful nations eyes, which is how it really is, they all gave Bin Laden his just reward along with thousands of others who contributed in direct and meaningful ways.

        So…all of that being said, I think it is perfectly understandable that dumb ass jerk off wants to ride the “I miss my brothers gravy train” for as long as the blue shirts want to listen to him, but he could and should, have told the truth in a forthright, straightforward and honest manner when he was first asked to help before he got onboard.

        Reply

        • Oh…and one more thing Marti. It seems as though there are a few people who like “Why does my heart feel so bad” almost as much as you and I do. So I posed the lyrics on the webpage this afternoon just in case you can’t make out exactly what Laura Dawn is singing.

          Ms. Dawn is singing, “He’ll open doors”, which of course is a very simply message, but one that I feel is quite poignant and meaningful, especially under the circumstances.

          http://ourfiregods.com/yarnellhillfire.html

          Reply

          • Well…nothing is ever as easy as it should be but…2 out of 3 sites think Ms. Dawn is saying “These open doors.” So I changed it.

            Reply

  97. Marti Reed said

    September 22, 2015 at 9:42 pm

    And also, I just have to say, that that video you once created and .posted on YouTube, with the song that said something like “Why do I feel so bad,” that you posted and linked downstream recently but apparently isn’t there anymore, at your website at this moment, as your “memorial” to the Granite Mountain Hotshots, was really totally one of my number one top favorites among ALL of the memorials to the Granite Mountain Hotshots.

    Gary Olson said

    September 23, 2015 at 7:11 pm

    I just put it up (“Why do I feel so bad,” ) because that is how I was feeling that night, but that song really sums up for me how I feel about what happened. I think I will build a page dedicated to collecting misc. stuff for the YH fire on and I will put that video back up.

    And yes, it is the same song I used with my tribute to GMIHC but I can’t watch it anymore because I can’t stand to see Donut’s face in it. I am going to have to redo it now (at some point) and remove all photos of that dumb ass jerk off.

    Reply

    • I’m with Sonny as far as Donut goes, but I don’t think Sonny takes it far enough. At this point, even looking at that dumb ass jerk offs face me feel nauseous. There is only one word that really describes Donut for me.

      SOCIOPATH!

      And if it has been awhile since you have looked carefully at the full meaning of that word, you could probably benefit from doing so now. In fact, one of the on-line dictionaries I went to, now has an actual photo of Donut on their site and a description of his activities to illustrate exactly what that word means in the English language.

      I can understand how all of the blue shirts like to gather together and listen to that dumb ass jerk off, most of them are pretty clueless when it comes to what it means to be a wildland firefighter anyway…obviously.

      I think I will really lose it if WTKTT ever posts something about that dumb ass jerk off being ask to speak to a group of wildland firefighters. At that point, my world will be officially off its axis and spinning out of control.

      Reply

      • Reply to Gary Olson post on September 23, 2015 at 7:47 pm

        >> Gary Olson said…
        >>
        >> I think I will really lose it if WTKTT ever posts something about
        >> that dumb ass jerk off being ask to speak to a group of wildland
        >> firefighters. At that point, my world will be officially off its axis
        >> and spinning out of control.

        I keep waiting for some sign of a ‘transcript’ or even a ‘video’ to appear that would give some indication what Brendan McDonough is even SAYING at these ‘speaking engagements’… but so far… nothing.

        Brendan keeps posting these ‘pseudo press releases’ about his engagements on his own Facebook page ( where he still lists his occupation as ‘Public Figure’. )… but even there all you will see following the engagements are little one-liners like “Thanks for comin’!” or “God be with ya!” or “We are with ya, brotha!”.

        Not even any indication in any comment what it was he even talked about.

        Just a lot of what have become known now as ‘Facebook FARTS”.

        I doubt Brendan is making ANY mention of the Wildland Firefighting industry at all in these ‘speeches’. It’s probably all just still “I miss my Brothers” stuff.

        If that’s what the people paying for him to speak want to hear… then I guess they aren’t being disappointed.

        Something tells me there are also NEVER any ‘questions from the audience’ at these speaking engagements. Brendan just talks… people just applaud… and he just walks off the stage.

        Cha-Ching.

        Reply

    • Marti – OK… I built a Yarnell Hill Fire page to start collecting stuff and I put our favorite video back up that defines how we (you and I) feel about the GMIHC. Like I said, I can’t load my original tribute video until I delete that dumb ass jerk off out of it. But this one is pretty good, if you can imagine Laura Dawn is thinking about the GMIHC while she is singing, which I can.

      http://ourfiregods.com/yarnellhillfire.html

      Reply

    • Gotcha! Totally understand.

      But I still want the video back. Without Donut is fine. Because it said what I feel. Really really really really really really just totally frickin sad. Because this was so totally frickin completely unneccessary.

      On the other hand, if this total clusterf*ck hadn’t happened, I wouldn’t have “met” you and WTKTT and TTWARE and Bob Powers and Joy and Sonny and Sitta and RTS and Calvin and SR and JD and various others who have taught me SO MUCH — so I guess there’s that

      The Truth will make you conscious and, thus free, but, first. The Truth will make you dissapointed and disoriented and jumbled and then crazy and angry and upset and then inquisitive and then unwilling to accept easy bullsh*t from the Powers That Be. Thus said the Brother Jesus, according to a paraphrasing by me (who has a Master’s Degree in Divinity).

      Reply

      • On the other hand, relying on Jesus will not protect you from the consequences of hiking down into a bowl full of potentially explosive manzanita with a wildfire heading directly at it from a quarter of a mile away because your temporary Crew Supervisor agrees (however unwillingly) to participate in a Hail Mary Last Ditch plan concocted by a combination of your normal Crew Supervisor who is your acting Division Supervisor and a Structure Protection Group Supervisor and an Operations Supervisor.

        Nothing Jesus may have said about “The Truth Shall Set Your Free” will ever trump the physics of the above composition. My brother learned that the hard way.

        Faith in Jesus needs to be excluded from decision-making on a wildfire. Along with personal emotional feelings about houses.

        So. Be. It.

        Why do I feel so sad?

        Reply

      • And just have to say. That Attitude in that “The Truth shall set you free” guy is exactly what got him killed by the Powers That Be. Just in case anybody has conveniently forgotten about that little factoid.

        Reply

  98. Reply to Gary Olson post on September 22, 2015 at 11:12 am

    >> Gary Olson said…
    >>
    >> I called back on a hunch to find out if there was a problem with this PARTICULAR
    >> case and a very nice but very inquisitive lady asked me a lot of very pointed
    >> questions as to why I wanted this information.

    She was actually just “doing her job” there.

    Arizona Law establishes that there are, in fact, circumstances when someone known in legal lingo as “the custodian of a public record” can/should make decisions about whether information being requested is for COMMERCIAL use… and then also make a decision about whether that particular ‘commercial use’ is “appropriate”.

    Here’s the actual Arizona Statute about that.

    It actually gives the “custodian of the public record” the right to petition the governor for a specific ‘denial’ for a specific ‘records request’…

    Title 39 of Arizona Law – Public Records, Printing and Notices
    http://www.azleg.state.az.us/ArizonaRevisedStatutes.asp?Title=39

    From Chapter 1 – Article 2 – Section 39-121.03
    ——————————————————————————-
    39-121.03 – Request for copies, printouts or photographs; statement of purpose; commercial purpose as abuse of public record; determination by governor; civil penalty; definition

    A. When a person requests copies, printouts or photographs of public records for a commercial purpose, the person shall provide a statement setting forth the commercial purpose for which the copies, printouts or photographs will be used.

    3-B. If the custodian of a public record determines that the commercial purpose stated in the statement is a misuse of public records or is an abuse of the right to receive public records, the custodian may apply to the governor requesting that the governor by executive order prohibit the furnishing of copies, printouts or photographs for such commercial purpose.
    ——————————————————————————-

    So that actually gives the “custodian of the public record” the ‘authoritay’ to at least ask some questions about why the information is being requested.

    >> Gary Olson also said…
    >>
    >> After she asked me who was involved in the case, and of course I
    >> replied AMANDA MARSH, I was put on hold…twice…for what I considered
    >> to be a long periods of time and then I was asked some more pointed questions
    >> from a very nice lady who had a very hard edge to her voice.

    Again… given that Amanda Marsh herself has established herself as a ‘Public Figure’ there in Arizona and is currently sitting on an Arizona State Public Board ( and, so, can be also considered a temporary ‘public official’ )… the “keepers of the public records” have the right to ask some questions.

    See above about the whole COMMERCIAL USE thingy and the fact these “keepers of the public records” DO have some “authoritay” to make decisions.

    OR… it could just be that the people in that office know very well that any requests for anything related to The Yarnell Hill Incident are, generally, ongoing “Oh Shit!” moments for them and the low level clerks have been told to be sure and get the ‘managers’ involved.

    >> Gary Olson…
    >>
    >> And in the end the very nice lady told me that the case had been appealed and
    >> that is why it is now in Superior Court. >> BUT…the CD with all of the original
    >> testimony as to why Joy shouldn’t hike in the area of the deployment site is in
    >> Judge Markam’s control

    Whoops. BIG RED FLAG.

    You may have just been informed that this Judge Markham guy is officially in VIOLATION of Arizona Law AND codified Arizona Judicial Court procedures, and, at the very least, deserves a ‘rebuke’ of some sort. There might even be FINES involved. See below.

    Arizona Law is VERY SPECIFIC about what has to happen when a case from a lower County or Municipal Court goes to ‘appeal’ up in SUPERIOR Court.

    Arizona Law says that the moment the case is ‘appealed’… the LOWER Court Clerks MUST make ‘certified copies’ of EVERYTHING related to that case and they must then immediately deliver/transmit EVERYTHING up to the Clerks of the SUPERIOR court… so that the new ‘appeal’ case file ( which is going to get its own case number up there in SUPERIOR court ) is a fully self-contained, identical COPY of EVERYTHING associated with that original case.

    No ‘Wiggle Room’.

    Here is the actual Arizona LAW regarding that…

    First and foremost… the following is from the actual Arizona Law regarding (specifically) “Injunctions Against Harassment” and how ANYONE has the right to appeal a decision made against them in a County or Municipal Court up to the corresponding SUPERIOR Court…

    ———————————————————————————————
    12-1809. Injunction against harassment; petition; venue; fees; notices; enforcement; definition

    O. An order that is entered by a justice court or municipal court after a hearing pursuant to this section may be appealed to the superior court as provided in title 22, chapter 2, article 4, section 22-425, subsection B and the superior court rules of civil appellate procedure without regard to an amount in controversy. No fee may be charged to either party for filing an appeal.
    ———————————————————————————————

    Okay… makes sense.

    So here is Arizona Law – Title 22, chapter 2, article 4 mentioned above…

    ———————————————————————————————
    Title 22 – Justice and Municipal Courts
    Chapter 2 – Civil Proceedings in Justice Courts
    Article 4 – Appeals
    Section 22-264 – Transmittal of court records and papers

    A. When an appeal is taken the justice of the peace shall make a certified copy of all court record documents, exhibits and other objects filed with the court and transmit them, together with a certified copy of the bill of costs, to the clerk of the superior court. The record of the proceedings shall be certified by the justice of the peace or as stipulated by the parties.

    B. The superior court may order the justice of the peace, on motion and cause shown, to transmit the items that are listed in subsection A of this section, and may fine the justice of the peace for neglect or refusal to transmit those items within the time ordered.

    C. The copy of the court record documents, exhibits and other objects filed with the court shall be transmitted to the clerk of the superior court within ten days after filing the bond on appeal.
    —————————————————————————————

    So the “Justice of the Peace” from the lower court where the appeal is coming from is specifically named as the one who is required by LAW to make certified copies of EVERYTHING and get EVERYTHING transmitted up to the SUPERIOR Court within ten days of the appeal being filed.

    Guess who is ALL of the following…

    The Prescott Justice of the Peace
    The Prescott City Magistrate
    A Prescott Municipal Court Judge.

    ( Time’s up )

    Judge Arthur Markham.

    The only way it would seem Mr. Markham ( as both Judge in the case AND the designated Prescott ‘Justice of the Peace’ ) could be compliant with this Arizona Law is if he decided to just ‘hang on’ to the AUDIO recording CD and put it in his desk… but he actually DID ‘transmit’ a full and complete WRITTEN transcript of what is ON that CD up to the SUPERIOR Court at the same time he was required to also send full ‘certified copies’ of EVERYTHING to do with that case that was now going to SUPERIOR court.

    So ( according to Arizona Law ) that means you really SHOULD be able to ALSO request ALL of the records associated with Yavapai County SUPERIOR Court Case number
    P-1300-CV-201500154, and you SHOULD get EVERYTHING that the ‘lower’ court had/has… including EITHER a ‘certified copy’ of the courtroom recording ( which is known to exist ) OR a ‘certified transcript’ of that same audio recording.

    >> Gary Olson also said…
    >>
    >> and as of today…right now at least, I was told that anyone could get a copy of
    >> the CD under THEIR case number which is; 20141222

    That’s all well and good ( and is as it SHOULD be )… but see above.

    According to Arizona Law… either a ‘certified copy’ of that original audio CD or a ‘certified transcript’ of the full contents of it are also SUPPOSED to be already ‘on file’ with the Court Clerks up there in Yavapai County Superior Court where this case is ‘on appeal’.

    If either of the above are NOT up there in SUPERIOR Court now… then Mr. Markham hasn’t done what he was required by LAW to do.

    Reply

    • BUT…the CD with all of the original
      >> testimony as to why Joy shouldn’t hike in the area of the deployment site is in
      >> Judge Markam’s control

      I wasn’t very precise with my words there, She said it has been appealed and in the conversation she said I could get a copy of the CD by sending to Judge Markam’s office, a letter requesting it and the money order. So…it was implied that it is under his control, but not specifically stated. Are you sure you are not an attorney?

      “OR… it could just be that the people in that office know very well that any requests for anything related to The Yarnell Hill Incident are, generally, ongoing “Oh Shit!” moments for them and the low level clerks have been told to be sure and get the ‘managers’ involved.”

      I pick that one, although I was very friendly and open with her and she responded accordingly after a little while. I always went with being Special Agent Friendly or Dumb Ass that needed things explained to me very slowly and in simple language. It worked pretty well most of the time. And she was after all, a very nice lady as I have said more than once.

      I think there is more to this story than we have been able to figure out at this point because all of our information is coming from Joy and she isn’t allowed to give us any information (according to her interpretation of what she heard them tell her).

      So, I am curious about what happened in this case and I really want to find out who the hell Max Maisal (sp) is? Somebody with the state land department I think, who is kind of like some Dark Lord of Arizona State Trust Land I guess?. Sounds to me like this dude needs to go on a cruise or get a massage.

      So.. of course I certainly admire your negativity, plan for the worst but hope for the best. But I hope it is not really that complicated and they just mail me the CD.

      Reply

      • Reply to Gary Olson post on September 22, 2015 at 11:38 pm

        >> Gary Olson said…
        >>
        >> I wasn’t very precise with my words there, She said it has been
        >> appealed and in the conversation she said I could get a copy
        >> of the CD by sending to Judge Markam’s office, a letter requesting
        >> it and the money order. So…it was implied that it is under his control,
        >> but not specifically stated.

        Copy that.

        I guess the only way to be sure if Prescott “Justice of the Peace” Aruthur Markham really did fulfill his legal responsibilities would be to actually request the full array of documents / objects for BOTH the lower ( his Court ) and the Superior Court… and see what might be ‘missing’ up there in Superior court.

        >> Gary Olson also said…
        >>
        >> Are you sure you are not an attorney?

        I’m sure… but I have been known to stay in a Holiday Inn Express ( seriously ).

        >> Gary Olson also said…
        >>
        >> I was very friendly and open with her and she responded accordingly
        >> after a little while.

        That’s good. It’s about as clear as mud in the Arizona statues what might actually constitute an “inappropriate commercial use of public records”… but some “custodian of the records” ( underling or manager ) is, in fact, supposed to at least try to elicit an ‘explanation’ for why the record(s) are being requested.

        >> Gary Olson also said…
        >>
        >> I think there is more to this story than we have been able to figure
        >> out at this point…
        >>
        >> … So, I am curious about what happened in this case and I really
        >> want to find out who the hell Max Maisal (sp) is? Somebody with
        >> the state land department I think, who is kind of like some Dark
        >> Lord of Arizona State Trust Land I guess?. Sounds to me like
        >> this dude needs to go on a cruise or get a massage.

        It’s actually ‘Max Masel’ – Director of the Arizona State Land Department

        I know the following URL says ‘Jim Adams’… but this is actually the online page at Arizona Land Department that lists ‘Max Masel’ as ‘Director’.

        Jim Adams is just the ‘Deputy State Land Commissioner’.

        Must just be a mixup on their Web Site with the URLs and what
        pages are supposed to show.

        https://land.az.gov/jim-adams-0

        >> Gary Olson also said…
        >>
        >> So.. of course I certainly admire your negativity, plan for the
        >> worst but hope for the best. But I hope it is not really that
        >> complicated and they just mail me the CD.

        I don’t see why they wouldn’t… unless someone steps in to shut the request down ( there’s that “if anything can go wrong it will” outlook again! ROFL ).

        Just to be clear, though.

        You ONLY requested the CD, right?

        And not the original affadavit filed by the plaintiff?

        It might be clear in the recordings/transcripts… but what still intrigues me most is whether or not the allegations made in the legal affidavit that had to be filed to even cause the hearing to happen bear any resemblance to the content of the conversation in the courtroom once the hearing DID take place.

        For an “Injunction for Harrassment” to actually have been GRANTED by a Judge ( Markham ) and then immediately served on the defendant BEFORE there was ever a hearing means that the allegations made in the original affidavit had to be SERIOUS + detailed + accurate + BELIEVABLE/PLAUSIBLE.

        It says so in Arizona Law.

        The Judge isn’t supposed to issue an ‘Order’ BEFORE a hearing unless he is convinced the allegations being made in the affidavit are SERIOUS… and TRUE.

        So since that is what actually happened in this particular case… it’s still important to know what (all) those original ‘allegations’ actually WERE…

        …and then ( as recordings should show )… whether those ‘allegations’ were even fully discussed in the hearing or whether the hearing itself took some huge LEFT TURN and was about a whole lot of ‘other shit’ not even related to the original complaint from the plaintiff ( such as where someone should be allowed to frickin’ HIKE ).

        Reply

        • Well…you bring up a very good point about the original affidavit, and no, I didn’t request it. I think that kind of paperwork just has very short, generalized statements on them that are fleshed out and supported by all of the testimony in the hearing. But I might be underestimating the value of the actual document. In any case, I didn’t even think about asking for it.

          It would be really nice for someone who is reading this thread and who lives in Prescott to wander into that office and get everything they can right then and there on the spot…how about it…somebody?

          But I really do hope everything is revealed in the actual testimony that they believed would support whatever it is they tried to accomplish and we can hear all of their bullshit.

          And if what they tried to accomplish was to scare the daylights out of Joy and make her jump at her own shadow…it worked really well. Maybe that bunch could find work in Mr. Putin’s Nuevo Russia as he tries to rebuild the Soviet Empire?

          As a former investigator who had some responsibility to do internal investigations involving managers who did the wrong thing, I would really like to get a shot at the Dark Lord of the Arizona State Land Department and see if I couldn’t find something to jam him up on, even if I had to fabricate the evidence (just kidding, what a joker!) myself!

          I really like the old, “I did stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night” almost as much as I like my, “I do have some good news for everyone.” Timeless classics.

          Reply

          • ( Begin complete off-topic rant )

            The situation in this country with these “Protective Orders” and “Injunctions Against Harassment”, and how things have gotten to where they are with these things, ought to scare the living shit out of everyone.

            It’s one of the only times when you are absolutely considered GUILTY until proven INNOCENT… and everything you must then do to prove your own innocence comes at YOUR EXPENSE.

            ANYONE can just go ‘online’ now, fill out a Javascript-based FORM… and ACCUSE anyone of anything… and before the accused even knows what is happening a Police Officer shows up handing you a Court Order.

            It is then up to YOU to even REQUEST the fucking HEARING ( just ONE ) that you are supposed to be entitled to now to even have a chance to tell your side of the story.

            If you don’t request the hearing… you are assumed to be even more GUILTY than whoever already did just because they read some piece of paper and decided to go ahead an issue the Order BEFORE you even knew someone was even asking for that Order.

            If you don’t show up for this “one-shot-deal” hearing… you are, once again, totally GUILTY and there’s no chance to even try to reschedule it even if you were lying sick in bed that day, or something.

            Courts everywhere are taking the $10 to $25 ( and more ) dollars filing fees and handing these ‘Orders’ out like candy.

            You end up having NO “rights to an attorney if you cannot afford one” and you are now totally on your own to even TRY and prove whether someone is totally lying out of every orifice in their body.

            Yea… yea… I know.. things have evolved to this point because the instances of domestic abuse and battery are at their highest levels ever in this country… and there will ALWAYS be a SERIOUS need for citizens to walk into a Clerk’s office and ( as fast as possible ) get a Judge to Order someone to stay away from them… like RIGHT NOW…

            …but it’s gone far beyond that.

            It’s being ABUSED on a regular basis and people are getting away with a lot of shit because of it.

            This deal in Prescott might turn out to be just be one more instance of that. They did it… because they COULD.

            ( End of complete off-topic rant )

            Reply

            • That sounds pretty bad and it reminds me a little bit of what some parents have gone through being wrongly accuse do child abuse for a variety of reasons. It really comes down to a no win situation, especially since I don’t know if one of those orders has ever really saved someone from death or serious injury from someone who really wants to hurt them. Damned if they do, and damned it they don’t.

              Except in this case maybe, I think that we will be able to analyze everything everybody said and subsequently did regarding Joy’s “Protective Orders” or “Injunctions Against Harassment”, whatever it was.

              And IF…anyone abused the system in any way, shape or form, I think we should use this thread to expose them for what they did. This thread provides us with a limited voice, but at least it’s something in a world where too often, too few people can speak and be heard.

              Reply

    • Joy did appeal but the Superior Court just agreed with the original decision and she received a latter back to that effect.

      Seems to me that Joy’s case was allowed simply to keep her from continuing to investigate and talk about the case concerning the deaths of the 19 members of the GMHS crew. She is one person that knows just about every soul in Yarnell-Glen Isla on a personal basis and has been able to access information and photos that not even a professional investigator could or in this case would do. I know here uncanny ability to see through scams and her photographic memory of things she has seen. As well, she knows and has kept informed from the local and Congress fire fighting people. She knows most of them on a personal basis–except perhaps Chief Ben Palm whom she has researched and knows well his background and new induction into the fire fighting experiment.

      That was quite a lineup WTKTT gave us for Donut and his future preformances before an audience. One does wonder how he would have much to say about fire fighting considering that he thinks the safety rules are hill billy and to be a fire fighter all you need to do is wing it using your inexperienced best judgement. Well in this case his bosses who after all nearly got him killed by leaving him there to use the lack of judgement he had in the Yarnell fire. Is he worth the listen considering how he with held information and truth that was due the loved ones long ago. In my case, I would not bother to waste my time to hear him out. I know enough about him by now that I would only feel sorry that he has not been transparent with the truth. I certainly won’t bother to buy his book either.

      The investigation was purposely intended to make these men out to be the heroes they were but without revealing how their methods of fire fighting were in gross error. Their disdain for fire fighting rules as pointed out by Donut’s talk and video needed to be shown to the profession to save lives–but instead God himself is blamed — that is what he wanted that day and he had other plans for them. Bull shit, if you hang off a ledge washing windows ten stories up without a safety harness and then fall ten stories is that what God had planned for you or were you just stupid enough to take the risk without the harness and then fell to your own death. It is akin to suicide as far as I am concerned and without taking safety measures you surely can’t blame God.

      Truth will win out on this one eventually. Joy is one of those that has discovered much of it that those that are not in immediate proximity were not able to do. There are some telling photos she has brought forward–her own and many she retrieved from friends. I don’t see her as a quitter and we have both said those men deserve to have the truth out there. Being next to God you know damn well they would want nothing but the truth out there for their loved ones, for future fire fighters, friends and anyone who wants to know.

      Reply

      • reply to Sonny on his inaccurate statement:
        “Seems to me that Joy’s case was allowed simply to keep her from continuing to investigate and talk about the case concerning the deaths of the 19 members of the GMHS crew. She is one person that knows just about every soul in Yarnell-Glen Isla on a personal basis and has been able to access information and photos that not even a professional investigator could or in this case would do. ”
        MY REPLY:
        that is what YOU took away from it but I am only not allowed to talk about A person private or public and okay with it too

        Reply

      • reply to Sonny’s statement: “That was quite a lineup WTKTT gave us for Donut and his future preformances before an audience.”MY REPLY: Houdini comes to my mind…if Donut was able to go this far…shocked he has not been asked to be into espionage…be a spy…put that on his IMDB page maybe down the road..

        Reply

      • reply to Sonny’s statement: “Truth will win out on this one eventually. Joy is one of those that has discovered much of it that those that are not in immediate proximity were not able to do. There are some telling photos she has brought forward–her own and many she retrieved from friends. I don’t see her as a quitter and we have both said those men deserve to have the truth out there.” MY REPLY: Hope you are right Sonny…on truth winning…I feel I am restricted to be me anymore online on certain areas is all…I wonder if the MISSING ELEMENTS feel the same way…

        Reply

      • Reply to Sonny post on September 23, 2015 at 2:49 pm

        >> Sonny said…
        >>
        >> Joy did appeal but the Superior Court just agreed with the
        >> original decision and she received a latter back to that effect.

        Then it remains a total mystery why the official online public record for this ‘appeal’ has no indication of that ( there is no DISPOSITION entry in the record ) and there is still not even the name of the JUDGE who was ‘assigned’ to consider this appeal ( which he/she obviously ‘denied’ and just agreed with the lower court’s decision ).

        This would be another ‘Double Eye’ scenario.

        The lack of information in the public record is either ‘Incompetence’… or it is ‘Intentional’.

        Once again… below are the results from entering ‘Amanda Marsh’ into the Arizona Courts records system at the following URL ( after getting through the ‘captcha’ thing on the home page ).

        Notice that the record which comes up is obviously the ‘appeal’ of Joy’s case showing up in the Yavapai County Superior Court… but there is still absolutely NO DISPOSITION Date ( OR Result ) showing where it’s supposed to… and there is still absolutely no NAME of any JUDGE showing.

        https://apps.supremecourt.az.gov/publicaccess/caselookup.aspx?AspxAutoDetectCookieSupport=1

        —————————————————————-
        Case Number: P-1300-CV-201500154

        Title: AMANDA BENO MARSH VS. JOY A. COLLURA
        Category: Civil
        Court: Yavapai County Superior
        Filing Date: 2/19/2015
        Judge: ( NO ENTRY )
        Disposition Date: ( NO ENTRY )

        JOY ANN COLLURA: APPELLANT – A 1
        AMANDA BENO MARSH: APPELLEE – B 1

        Case Activity

        Date / Description / Party
        4/23/2015 NOTICE: AND ACKNOWLEDGEMENT OF RECEIPT A 1
        4/17/2015 ORDER: Order A 1
        2/20/2015 NOTICE: Notice A 1
        2/19/2015 NOTICE: TRANSMITTAL OF RECORD FROM LOWER COURT A 1
        —————————————————————-

        Notice also that according to these ‘docket’ entries… it took almost exactly TWO MONTHS ( From February 20, 2015 to April 17, 2015 ) for some ‘mystery Judge’ to finally make up his mind that the APPELLANT ( Joy Collura ) wasn’t even entitled to another hearing on this matter.

        Original lower Court ( Markham’s ) Order ‘upheld’ without even a hearing.

        Case ( Appeal ) dismissed.

        >> Sonny also wrote…
        >>
        >>
        >> That was quite a lineup WTKTT gave us for Donut and his future
        >> preformances before an audience. One does wonder how he would
        >> have much to say about fire fighting considering that he thinks the
        >> safety rules are hill billy and to be a fire fighter all you need to do
        >> is wing it using your inexperienced best judgement.

        I keep waiting for some sign of a ‘transcript’ or even a ‘video’ to appear that would give some indication what Brendan McDonough is even SAYING at these ‘speaking engagements’… but so far… nothing.

        Brendan keeps posting these ‘pseudo press releases’ about his engagements on his own Facebook page ( where he still list his occupation as ‘Public Figure’. )… but even there all you will see following the engagements are little one-liners like “Thanks for coming” or “God be with ya!” or “We are with ya, brotha!”.

        Not even any indication in any comment what it was he even talked about.

        Just a lot of what have become known now as ‘Facebook FARTS”.

        I doubt Brendan is making ANY mention of the Wildland Firefighting industry at all in these ‘speeches’. It’s probably all just still “I miss my Brothers” stuff.

        If that’s what the people paying for him to speak want to hear… then I guess they aren’t being disappointed.

        Something tells me there are also NEVER any ‘questions from the audience’ at these speaking engagements. Brendan just talks… people just applaud… and he just walks off the stage.

        >> Sonny also said…
        >>
        >> The investigation was purposely intended to make these men out to
        >> be the heroes they were but without revealing how their methods of
        >> fire fighting were in gross error.

        Which has always, itself, just been a juvenile way of approaching it.

        It’s like they didn’t think ADULTS could handle the reality that mistakes WERE made… but that in no way diminishes the profession or the industry or the rest of the ( good ) accomplishments of that organization. And despite all their warts and goblins… there WERE, certainly, those things.

        That’s really been the problem all along here.

        There have never been enough ADULTS “in the room”.

        >> Sonny also said…
        >>
        >> Their disdain for fire fighting rules as pointed out by Donut’s talk and
        >> video needed to be shown to the profession to save lives–but instead
        >> God himself is blamed — that is what he wanted that day and he had
        >> other plans for them. Bull shit, if you hang off a ledge washing windows
        >> ten stories up without a safety harness and then fall ten stories is that
        >> what God had planned for you or were you just stupid enough to take
        >> the risk without the harness and then fell to your own death. It is akin
        >> to suicide as far as I am concerned and without taking safety
        >> measures you surely can’t blame God.

        I agree… but other than what we now have to realize ( because of Brendan’s recent statements to Bill Gabbert ) Eric Marsh *may* have done that afternoon ( as his final act )… there is no other evidence that ‘suicide’ was in the picture.

        No one WANTED to die that afternoon.

        It was a series of horrible mistakes in judgement and blatant violations of the rules of their own profession that (ultimately) caused the tragedy.

        Those things CAN be ‘studied’…. and “Lessons can/should be learned”.

        Reply

  99. Just a little slightly drunken (to be honest) note.

    I AM reading. But also moving and also it is PhotoWeek2015 on Seattle, Washington’s CreativeLIVE, which is a VERY BIG DEAL for me. Including discovering that that woman in the video of Matt Kosklowski teaching landscape photography, on their Bus Trip from San Francisco to Seattle, who asked him at their event in Sacramento, why her photos of the area burned in the Butte Fire, from which she was still evacuated, were over-exposed, was a woman who is the wife of a California Fire-Fighter and who photographs California Fire-Fighting, with whom I frequently converse in the CreativeLIVE chatroom about the Yarnell Fire and who, therefore, frequently reads this conversation. I’m currently putting together a collection of links for her to look at of the photos of the aftermath of the Yarnell Fire. She wants to really photo-document the aftermath of the Butte Fire. Six degrees of separation.

    Oh yes, and I have to add that she said there were all kinds of communications problems going on on the Initial Attack on the Butte Fire. That’s the one where the smoke-jumpers (I think?) got burned over.

    There’s also another woman photographer out of Phoenix who studied ecology and fire ecology who just said today, in the chatroom, “It really looks to me like some policies need to change regarding all of this….DONTCHA THINK???” So another six degrees of separation.

    Some of this had to do with my saying I had started to photograph the aftermath of the several wildfire burns over the Valles Caldera, where the Granite Mountain Hotshots had fought the Thompson Ridge Fire just weeks before getting themselves killed on the Yarnell HIll Fire.

    And thank you Gary for going after the whole deal regarding that court order denying Joy her rights to hike on the Weavers and to WTKTT for partnering with that. That has not made any sense to me whatsoever. I would have volunteered to help pay whatever costs could have been required for that documentation and transcripting. And I had always been stumped as to Ted Putnam’s involvement in it. I would really really really appreciate access to that hearing, as difficult as it has been to find it.

    OK. Now about religion. This is gonna be brief, because I am basically falling asleep. I may say more later. I was, for 35 years, a United Church of Christ ordained Minister. Translate Lefty Social Justice Environmentalist Feminist also into Native American and Buddhist thinking, but still ordainable, Professional Minister. Worked in Parish Ministry, Social Advocacy (including Native American Lands Claims stuff ala the International Indian Treaty Council), environmental issues and Justice (via the New Mexico Conferene of Churches), etc etc etc.

    I was also a Girl Scout Leader. When I was wearing my Girl Scout Leader Hat, religion was never ever ever ever ever ever deemed to be a part of what we were doing, even though the co-leader of our Troop was a MUCH more conservative Christian than I was, and, privately between she and me , we had LOTS of interesting conversations. That would have NEVER been acceptable to have been included in what we were doing/saying with the Troop within the Girl Scouts of the USA.

    And that’s just the frickin’ Girl Scouts!!!

    WTF with the Granite Mountain Hotshots?????? Yep I do DEFINITELY believe there’s a BIG problem there and I also believe this whole thing with Deborah Pfingston and Amanda Marsh apparently using this whole religion thingy to deny Joy her rights is complete and utter BS, and I totally agree with Gary in his wonderful term-filled description of Darrell Willis.

    OK now I am seriously falling asleep. But just one more notation. My dad, the chief meteorologist for the entire atmospheric nuclear weapons testing program, died in 2007 from lung cancer. He smoked cigarettes majorly. He also got $150K in compensation for radiation exposure linked to his cancer right before he died. My mom also got another $150K in compensation after he died. My dad and I argued about nuclear power endlessly. Fukushima validated my concerns. When Fukushima happened, I said to my dad, wherever you are in the Universe, I won that argument, I won that bet, and now you owe me the cost of the iPad I am now about to buy.

    When you, Gary, wrote that your dad died in a New Mexico uranium mine, I was truly heart-broken. I mean I really felt it personally. And all Sonny has written about that stuff has also hit me personally. I feel your pain.

    So I just wanted to say those things. Even though I am falling asleep. Just wanted to let people know I haven’t exactly LEFT this conversation, but have a LOT of other stuff going on.

    Oh and yes, I also agree, as I have said downstream, that this whole thing of creating these hybrid structure-wildland fire-fighters is starting to prove itself to be a seriously potentially deadly experiment that needs to be seriously re-calibrated.

    And it has been POURING DOWN RAIN in Albuquerque all day, and I have two houses with leaky roofs. We are just totally benefitting from the “weak El Nino” that also is keeping the west and northwest dry and burning this year.

    OK, so Goodnite! And thank you all!!

    Reply

    • Thank you Marti, since went my entire life without talking about my father, so you might actually be the first person to