Please begin Chapter XVII here:
Chapter I, Chapter II, Chapter II supplement, Chapter III, Chapter IV, Chapter V, Chapter VI, Chapter VII, Chapter VIII , Chapter IX, Chapter X, Chapter XI, Chapter XII , Chapter XIII, Chapter XIV, Chapter XV and Chapter XVI.
© Copyright 2015 John Dougherty, All rights Reserved. Written For: Investigative MEDIA
“Joy a collura says DECEMBER 10, 2015 AT 6:41 AM
New chapter started
Thank you John”
Not only that, but:
“After years of delay, the Granite Mountain Hotshot autopsy records are released
DECEMBER 9, 2015 BY JOHN DOUGHERTY”
http://www.investigativemedia.com/after-years-of-delay-the-granite-mountain-hotshot-autopsy-records-are-released-to-the-public/
“InvestigativeMEDIA filed a public records request with the Yavapai County Medical Examiner on Nov. 18 seeking the autopsy and toxicology records while specifically stating that photographs were not being sought. Yavapai County released the reports a couple of days later.
One of the most potentially significant, but easily misunderstood, findings in the toxicology reports is the presence of alcohol in the blood of 13 of the 19 Granite Mountain Hotshots ranging from .01 to .09 percent. A person is legally drunk in Arizona at .08%. Another hotshot had several drugs in his blood, but no alcohol.”
I guess JD is still reading us, after all!
And here’s the link to the new chapter:
“Please begin Yarnell Hill Fire Chapter XVIII here”
http://www.investigativemedia.com/please-begin-yarnell-hill-fire-chapter-xviii-here/
Reply to Woodsman post on December 9, 2015 at 1:26 pm
>> Woodsman said…
>>
>> Listening to the exchange between ‘Granite Mtn 7′ and air attack is hard to listen to.
I know. You just want to jump into that airplane and scream
at John Burfiend… “ANSWER THEM, ASSHOLE!”
Burfiend was CHOOSING to NOT RESPOND to them… and only did so ( after an excruciating 2 minutes of 30 seconds of those men pleading with him to answer them ) when OPS1 Todd Abel finally ORDERED him to talk to them.
Then he sounded like he’d just been caught with his pants around his ankles and nervously responded with an “Oh… okay… Aye, aye sir!” tone to Abel.
>> Woodsman also said…
>>
>> The response from the pilot would probably prompt me to visit the airbase afterwards
>> to ‘ask’ him about it…..and that would probably be the day I got fired.
And also slapped with an assault charge? ( Just kidding, of course ).
>> Woodsman also said…
>>
>> In the video of them bouncing up the 2-track in the red UTV (where
>> they are obviously stressed and hauling ass to get to the deployment
>> site) there is a moment where a conversation starts and audio is DROPPED.
>> What was said at this point must be key information, IMO.
The ‘Aaron Hulburd’ video you are referring to is named M2U00273R.
It does, in fact, have the audio removed in TWO places… from 4:38-4:45 and from 5:03-5:20
The US Forest Service actually did claim an ‘FOIA Exemption 6’ as the reason for these ‘audio redactions’ and the REASON they gave ( in a letter to Mr. John Dougherty, the original FOIA requestor of this material ) is because at that moment, KC ‘Bucky’ Yowell and Aaron Hulburd were trying to call their wives to tell them THEY were ‘ok’… and some cellphone numbers were in the audio.
USFS said the reactions were “to protect the discussion of a personal telephone number.”
The audio that remains backs this up.
Just before the redactions, we DO hear KC ‘Bucky’ Yowell asking Aaron Hulburd…
“Have you called your wife yet?”
And that that DOES appear what they proceeded to do. Call out phone numbers ( audibly ) so Hulburd could dial up the wives because Yowell was driving.
This was all established in the FOIA response letter Mr. Dougherty received.
Mr. John Dougherty of InvestigativeMEDIA was the one who first made the FOIA request direct to the Prescott National Forest for ALL relevant photos and videos that ANY Prescott National Forest employee might have taken while working at the Yarnell Hill Fire.
THAT request is the one that eventually led to the USFS finally releasing all the other videos taken by PNF employee Aaron Hulburd when he was ‘working’ the Yarnell Hill fire along with fellow PNF employees Jason Clawson and KC ‘Bucky’ Yowell.
Arizona Forestry published the long-hidden material FIRST, on their own website, with a blurb at the bottom of their online page saying…
“Arizona State Forestry has not received any identifying or clarifying information from the Forest Service.”
However… when USFS finally got around to fulfilling John Dougherty’s ORIGINAL FOIA request… there was “identifying and clarifying information” included in the letter that USFS supplied to Mr. Dougherty along with the requested material.
Mr. Dougherty published a copy of that ‘letter’ he received at the following link…
http://www.investigativemedia.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/11/usfs-foia-response-yarnell-videos-11-7-14.pdf
The FULL TEXT version of the content of that letter from the USFS is as follows…
———————————————————————————-
United States Department of Agriculture
Forest Service – Caring for the Land and Serving People
Washinton Office
1400 Independenc Avenue, SW
Washington, DC, 20250
File Code: 6270 2015-FS-WO-00325-F
Date: Nov 07 2014
To: Mr. John Dougherty
Investigative Media
PO Box 501
Rimrock, AZ 86335
Dear Mr. Dougherty:
This letter is in response to your Freedom of Information Act (FOIA) request dated
October 13, 2014, which was received in the Washington Office FOIA Service Center on
October 21, 2014, and assigned control number 2015-FS-WO-00325-F. You are requesting
‘helmet cam’ footage taken by Forest Service personnel during the Yarnell Hill fire.
In response to your request, we conducted a search for responsive electronic and hard copy
records, everywhere a reasonably knowledgeable professional could expect to find responsive
records. We found 21 video files, which contain a total of 43 minutes and one second of footage.
17 video files are being released to you in full; four video files are being released to you in part,
with information withheld pursuant to Exemption 6 of the FOIA, 5 U.S.C 552 (b)(6) The
videos are enclosed on a DVD-ROM disc.
Exemption 6 protects information about individuals in “personnel and medical files and similar
files” when the disclosure of such information “would constitute a clearly unwarranted invasion
of personal privacy.” We have determined that the following information must be withheld
pursuant to Exemption 6 of the FOIA: the identity of a civilian, and individual’s personal phone
number, and footage from the scene of the firefighter fatalities. The following videos have been
edited to remove this information:
1. M2U00266R is redacted from 2:55-2:58 to blur the face of a private party.
2. M2U00273R has the audio removed from 4:38-4:45 and from 5:03-5:20 to protect the
discussion of a personal telephone number.
3. M2U00276R has the video blocked from 4:20 until the end of the clip to protect a scene
that includes bodies of firefighters. The audio remains for this portion.
4. M2U00277R has the video blocked from 0:15 until the end of the clip to protect a scene
that includes bodies of firefighters. The audio remains for this portion.
The FOIA provides you the right to appeal this response. Any appeal must be made in writing,
within 45 days from the date of this letter, to the Chief, USDA, Forest Service: 1) by email to
wo_foia (at) fs.fed.us; 2) by regular mail to Mail Stop 1143, 1400 Independence Avenue, SW,
Washington, DC 20250-1143; 3) by Fed Ex or UPS to 201 14th Street, SW, Washington, DC
20250-1143 and telephone (202) 205-1542. The term “FOIA APPEAL” should be placed in
capital letters on the subject line of the email or on the front of the envelope. To facilitate the
processing of your appeal, please include a copy of this letter and/or the FOIA control number
assigned to your FOIA request 2015-FS-WO-00325-F.
Sincerely,
( Signed) TOM HARBOUR
Director, Fire and Aviation Management.
Enclosure: ( 1 DVD-ROM disc )
———————————————————————————-
This letter from the USFS to Mr. John Dougherty was DATED ‘November 7, 2014’, but Arizona Forestry ended up publishing the videos ( by uploading them to their public AZSF YouTube account ) the next day, on November 8, 2014, BEFORE Mr. John Dougherty ever actually RECEIVED this letter and his own copies of the same videos.
Since Arizona Forestry had obviously been INFORMED by USFS that they were now going to fulfill this FOIA request from Mr. Dougherty, AZF decided they better ‘publish’ the material FIRST… and ‘get out ahead of the story’.
Sure enough… that plan ‘worked’.
Obviously the MSM ( Mainstream Media ) jumped all over the publication of all these ‘hidden videos form the Yarnell Fire’… but they then started ( erroneously ) reporting that the material was ‘released’ as a result of an FOIA request from Arizona Forestry itself.
That was NOT the case.
The fact that it was InvestigativeMEDIA and Mr. John Dougherty that forced this hidden material to surface, and the fact that it was OBTAINED from employees of the Prescott National Forest who played a crucial role in the events leading up to, during, and following the fatal deployment ( Jason Clawson, Aaron Hulburd, and KC ‘Bucky’ Yowell )… got “lost in the noise”… just as the USFS and Arizona Forestry hoped it would.
Arizona Forestry had simply said on their website when they ‘got out ahead of the story’ and published the long-hidden evidence on November 8, 2014…
“”Arizona State Forestry has not received any identifying or clarifying information
from the Forest Service.”
That’s because they did NOT get the same kind of ‘response letter’ that Mr. Dougherty received as the original submitter of the actual FOIA request.
Arizona Forestry never DID actually ‘request’ the material at all.
They only ‘arranged’ ( with USFS ) to receive and publish it all ( first ) via their own YouTube account because they now knew all of this same evidence was already ‘on its way’ to the person who DID force this evidence to the surface… Mr. John Dougherty of InvesitgativeMEDIA.
Does anyone really think that without Mr. John Dougherty’s actual FOIA request for this ‘Prescott National Forest’ employee ‘evidence’… that Arizona Forestry would have ever voluntarily chosen to publish it all on YouTube… at ANY time?
If you do… then I have some land I want to sell you ( in the Florida Everglades ).
PS: No one ( that anyone knows of ) has ever actually ‘interviewed’ PNF employees Jason Clawson, Aaron Hulburd and KC ‘Bucky’ Yowell. Not during the either the SAIT or ADOSH or investigations or even when these ‘hidden videos’ surfaced that were obviously taken by them.
In addition… NO ONE has ever asked Aaron Hulburd if he would put his hand on any stack of books of his choosing and swear that, other than the stated redactions, this material is absolutely, 100 percent, the full ORIGINAL content that he shot that day in Yarnell… with nothing ‘missing’.
Someone should ( ask him that ).
WTKTT:
Thank you! That explains a lot.
Notwithstanding everything above that DOES explain some of the EDITS and some of the REDACTIONS in what USFS released…
…the fact is that what they released was NOT a ‘legal fulfillment’ of that FOIA request.
It has been PROVEN ( already ) that what the USFS released are not ‘byte for byte digital copies’ of the original material.
ALL of the videos they released have had MOST of the original EXIF metadata REMOVED… which makes it impossible to really know…
1. The actual original LENGTH of any of the movie clips.
2. The actual TIME and DATE when those clips were ‘shot’.
3. The actual DEVICE that was used to record that video.
The 4 video clips that they DO admit to ‘altering’ in order to make those ( legally allowed ) EDITS as per their ‘FOIA Exemption 6’ claims would, of course, NOT end up being ‘byte for byte’ copies of the originals ( because of the act of editing them )…
…but as for the 17 OTHER videos…
The LAW REQUIRES that all of those MUST BE ‘byte for byte digital copies’ of the original material requested via a valid, legal FOIA request.
So just in that aspect alone… USFS has broken the law… and it can already be PROVEN just by looking at the EXIF metadata content of what they released.
That original FOIA request can/should be ‘appealed’ and the original FOIA case number used to initiate a “full, legally compliant’ response to that valid FOIA request.
Unless they claim an FOIA exemption for ALL 21 videos ( they have not )… then they MUST be ‘byte for byte’ digital copies of the ORIGINALS… complete with ALL of the original EXIF metadata.
Until that is supplied… then USFS continues to BREAK THE LAW.
WTKTT,
If you are interested, I posted kind of an extensive overview of the 18 USC criminal statutes dealing with PUBLIC RECORDS at
Robert the Second says
December 9, 2015 at 8:09 pm
You left out the link, RTS.
MOAR COFFEE???????
OK. I found it.
http://www.investigativemedia.com/please-begin-yarnell-hill-fire-chapter-xvii-here/#comment-318554
“It is ILLEGAL to just ‘withhold the information’ because you don’t want the requester to know it even exists.””
Yes, indeed it is illegal. See the Federal Statutes below:
http://www.justice.gov/usam/criminal-resource-manual-1663-protection-government-property-protection-public-records-and
“Title 18, Section 1663. Protection Of Government Property — Protection Of Public Records And Documents
The TAKING of a public record or document is prohibited by 18 U.S.C. § 641. The DESTRUCTION OF SUCH RECORDS may be reached under 18 U.S.C. § 1361. In both instances, however, proving a $100 loss, THE PREREQUISITE TO A FELONY CONVICTION, MAY BE DIFFICULT. THUS, NEITHER OF THESE STATUTES ADEQUATELY PROTECTS GOVERNMENT RECORDS..”
Reply to Robert the Second (RTS) post on
December 10, 2015 at 8:27 am
>> RTS said…
>>
>> WTKTT,
>>
>> If you are interested, I posted kind of an extensive
>> overview of the 18 USC criminal statutes dealing
>> with PUBLIC RECORDS at
>>
>> Robert the Second says
>> December 9, 2015 at 8:09 pm
Yes. I saw that… and also commented on it down below calling it an ‘excellent roundup of things some people could/should be charged with’.
That’s also where I clarified ( in case I hadn’t made it clear already ) that while Arizona Forestry published no ‘qualifying information’ on their website when they posted the videos ( because they never actually filed an FOIA response and never got the same letter Mr. Dougherty did ), Mr. Dougherty’s ‘response letter’ is where they actually DO make some limited ( valid ) ‘FOIA Exemption 6’ claims for the ‘obvious’ redactions and edits in the released material.
But that is not where they have violated legal FOIA.
They have violated legal FOIA in not releasing full ‘byte for byte’ digital copies of the 17 other videos for which there are NOT claiming any FOIA ‘exemptions’ at all.
Well, now that JD has published an article about the autopsy/toxicology reports, maybe he’ll re-go after the videos now, also.
Please JD??
And, while you’re at it, JD, a non-redacted version of the Blue Ridge Hotshots’ reports would also come in quite handy.
And, also, while you’re at it, JD, the photos and reports that were gathered by who-knows-whom from the Peeples Valley crew (and subsequently not released) would possibly help answer a bunch more questions. Those might, all things considered, be easier to obtain than the Blue Ridge reports.
Twould make for some awesome “Holiday” gifts for those of us who have been keeping this campfire stoked and burning for over two years, crazy conspiracy theorists and arm-chair quarterbacks that we are.
Thank you in advance, Namaste,
Marti
Additionally, I just wrote in Chapter XVIII this, in reponse to a comment by rocksteady:
“I basically agree with you, here,, rocksteady.
I actually think B33 was doing a terrific job, all things considered.
Which reminds me, now that we’re in this new room.
We left Chapter XVII discussing all the stuff that still needs to be FOIA’d.
I forgot that something else that, imho, is “missing in action” is the Air To Ground radio recordings from the Air Study Crew that I would bet more than my annual income exist somewhere.”
“NO ONE has ever asked Aaron Hulburd if he would put his hand on any stack of books of his choosing and swear that, other than the stated redactions, this material is absolutely, 100 percent, the full ORIGINAL content that he shot that day in Yarnell… with nothing ‘missing’.”
It’s beyond way too late fore me to even be up, much less replying to this.
But I was just sitting here falling asleep while trying to conjure up how to write my first article on Daily Kos (I wrote a story in the middle of last night tributing the yesterday death of John Trudell, who I have for decades considered the Native American Poet Laureate just because somebody needed to do it and I needed to see if I could navigate the Daily Kos 5 upgrade when it comes to writing and publishing) regarding this fire.
I’ve been sorta kinda in my head doing that for a few weeks now, but tonight was the first time I actually specifically sat down and imagined exactly how I might start to write it and then got lost and then almost fell asleep.
I mean WTF where to even begin???????
I began, here, with seeing Chris’s camera sitting in the middle of the Deployment
Site when, apparently, nobody else could even see it, two years ago, during the “holiday season” which I spent “virtually” crawling around there on the ground via a large number of photographs, looking at demolished fire shelters and variously burned radios and sunglasses and cellphones and water bottles and thus and such and a chain-saw right next to where somebody died, and a bunch of cards with numbers on them.
And then, a year ago, trying to figure our what kind of a camera Aaron might have been using (since the USFS scrubbed the metadata) in order to try and figure out what length of video files he might have been capturing in order to try and figure out how much of those files might have been “edited” by the USFS in order to try and figure out WTF?????
I mean, where does someone even begin to write, on a site that gets a million hits per day, about this fire?
Hey, Aaron, what do you think? Hello, Paul Musser? Brian Frisby, how’s your PTSD (that your mom wrote about on Facebook) working out for you? What made you, Ronnie Gamble, jump into that crew-buggy and start recording that radio transmission that included “would be nice if you could get down as soon as possible” (paraphrased cuz I’m writing now off the top of my head). Were you, Safety Officer Tony Sciacca, involved in that radio conversation that ended with someone asking “waz yo status?” just a little bit before you were shown standing there looking at that fire in that video beside Cougan Carothers?
Jeebus. What do we do with this stuff??????. If I write about this on a site that gets a million hits a day, where do I even begin?
OK I have to make appointments with lawyers tomorrow and finalize my ACA health plan. I probably, all things considered, won’t be writing about this on Daily Kos until after the beginning of the year. But, seriously, I don’t even remotely know where to begin.
It’s seriously time for me to go to bed.
But before I go to bed (realizing there are some things I haven’t read upstream), I want, also to respond to this:
“Woodsman says DECEMBER 9, 2015 AT 1:26 PM
Listening to the exchange between ‘Granite Mtn 7′ and air attack is hard to listen to. The response from the pilot would probably prompt me to visit the airbase afterwards to ‘ask’ him about it…..and that would probably be the day I got fired.”
I live in Albuquerque, New Mexico. The person serving as Air Attack in that video is John Burfiend, who is out of Silver City, New Mexico. His pilot, Tom French, lives in Rio Rancho, New Mexico, just outside of Albuquerque, as does Bea Day, the IC of the FULL Type wMT that I believe should have been assigned to the Yarnell Hill Fire Saturday night, in the first place.
Believe me, I have periodically contemplated going and visiting all of these three folks. But I haven’t done it. Chicken-shit me?
Maybe, as I contemplate trying to figure out how to write about this fire on a website that gets a million hits a day, I will corral the courage to actually go and ask these three the questions I would love to ask them, seemings as to how, apparently, nobody else has.
Namaste
On the other hand.
I’m not even remotely optimistic that, all things considered, any of those three would be willing to answer the questions I would be wanting to ask them.
Which is kinda sorta why I haven’t gone to visit them.
So there’s that.
New chapter started
Thank you John
I haz a question.
Various ppl here have posted comments criticizing the Incident Command System. Particularly, I think, as it pertains to fighting wildfires in the WUI. And Bob Powers, I think, made that critique recently just downstream.
When these comments began appearing recently, especially as we were looking at the Twisp River Fire, I was kind of surprised, all things considered.
I spent a bunch of last week researching “fusion” fire-fighters, and slowly realizing, during our conversations, that the big problem is that wildland fire-fighters are having a more troublesome experience making that transition than structural fire-fighters are. It was really helpful for me to learn that.
Can anybody point me to articles or whatever on the Intertuuuubz critiquing the Incident Command System? I’d really like to learn more about that.
Marti,
Here’s one titled: “THE INCIDENT COMMAND SYSTEM: A 25-YEAR EVALUATION BY CALIFORNIA PRACTITIONERS” that deals with the strengths and weaknesses of the California ICS. 30 pages
https://www.usfa.fema.gov/pdf/efop/efo31023.pdf
And here is a ResearchGate article from the Journal of Homeland Security and
Emergency Management titled: “A Critical Evaluation of the Incident Command System and NIMS”
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/40822661_A_Critical_Evaluation_of_the_Incident_Command_System_and_NIMS
Follow the link to the article then blue “Download full-text” in upper right corner which brings you to a stand alone PDF article.
NIIMS is the National Interagency Incident Management System and is VERY convoluted and confusing and thank God the wildland fire agencies do NOT have to use it YET.
The DHS has been trying for years to get us all enveloped in their tentacles and webs. The move is premised on the USDA and USFS Agency heads whining about all the alleged the Mega-Fires as being National Disasters and therefore they don’t have the funding to accomplish their congressional missions and need help from FEMA, the national pocketbook.
I hope these two articles help and satisfy your curiosity and your amazing mind.
Thank you!
Here is the link for the Contract Engine Crew VIMEO video clip of them saving the GMHS Crew Carriers from burning up on the 2012 Holloway Fire in NV and OR. This video has been REMOVED from the site by VIMEO so one cannot ‘search’ for it and find it on their site AND you cannot even view this one now. All you’ll see is a color photo of a fire scene, e.g. smoke column and helicopter bucket work.
The GMHS Crew Carriers were parked in the green, and so someone else had to save their buggies that day. Sound familiar? (VIMEO http://vimeo.com/48411010 “we saved the Granite Mt. Hotshot buggies from burning up!”).
When you go to about mid-video, is when the Engine Crew is knocking down flames within about 20 feet of the GMHS carriers after it jumped the control line. You notice the GMHS (black helmet) running down the hill and handline about mid image, then freeze-frame through it so you can see him running down the slope toward the GMHS buggies. NO GMHS were left behind to monitor and/or secure their carriers left in the unburned. WTF!?
Presumably, this was a Lookout? This is also the ‘Nevada Fire’ incident discussed in IM when the GMHS was interviewing candidates for a Squad Boss position and the ‘Nevada Fire’ came up as a leadership example. The ‘Nevada Fire’ was the one where the fire suddenly crested the ridge without them being aware of it (NO LOOKOUT), their buggies were threatened, they had to quickly burn out around themselves, and concluded ‘it all turned out okay in the end’ or something like that. Bad Decisions With Good Outcomes and possibly even one (or more?) of the GMHS fires B/C Willis was referring to in the JUly 2013, YH FIre News Conference video when replying that it was “a very common occurrence to backfire around yourselves” to create a Safety Zone in response to NYT Reporter Fernada Santos question on the subject.
Thanks Marti. Glad to be back but some weak yet. Whew I don’t think I want another one of these as painful as the last one was. No morphine so you go though a horrible experience of pain worse than a mine slab falling on you. The sixth stent was applied and I woke up in ICU again. The hospital did call today with questions of how my stay was. The final question was did I enjoy my stay. As soon as I replied no they hung up. I believe I will get better in time but the state wont have to worry about me hiking anyone anytime soon.
Joy went to a house fire a couple miles from her home in Congress and was taking photos of the situation when approached by one of the local fire men. He asked who she was and she said I am the Desert Walker. He said Joy? We were told not to talk to you hikers. He did not end the conversation abruptly but listened as Joy explained that we estimated our escape as only by only 11 minutes. He said he did not know that but had been on the fire. He gave the reason for the mum order was that we were trying to keep things stirred up when it should be left alone. He then ambled over to the Sheriff deputy to talk, I personally take it as a compliment that when we hear more of the the truth of what happened that day we are glad to report it with no recompense.
Yes we escaped with a small margin. The video that was removed of those men using torches to set back fires right above the short rock wall along the dirt part of the Shrine Road and just a hundred yards or so above the Shrine were likely testament to why we were suddenly facing the fire coming our way when we should have had at least an hour head start on the fire. That Shrine location is very close to the Helms ranch and maybe only three quarters of a mile N and E’ When those winds changed that back fire would have quickly advanced toward the Helms and the north corner of Glen Isla. Considering the timing it could have easily trapped the GMHS. We did not know the timing on the video and wouldn’t you know, just as so much of every thing else has been redacted, that video was deleted. Had we been investigator savy, we would have down loaded it, How do they get away with posting things like that then able to remove them, Yes we saw the document that set the 320 acres aside on June 16 two weeks before the fire happened. Yes we were told by sources that the Helms had cleared defensible space two weeks before the fire==did they know something the rest of us did not? Yes there was a dozer that ran into a house just below the Helms along the North End of Glen Isla. The dozer man is suspiciously mum about his role in all this and was there also a back burn like the Shine one started along that perimeter? Why are so many like this fireman mummed up under strict orders? Why do we know people that purport to have photos of two yellow and white quads at the fire on Friday two days before the tragedy and on the day it started? Yet no investigator has approached us to see who these people are. We have very reputable people tell of the shredding of documents involving whar was said early on at a dispachers office. Why no investigation considering there are witnesses?
Yes am proud to say if seeking the truth and answers to why 19 were killed directly by the fire and 73 have since died in the aftermath with half the residences burned, then put me at the top of the list as one who keeps stirring the pot. The families, residents, those terribly affected by the fire deserve no less than the truth. Future wild land fighters need to know how belittling the rules as Donut has can only lead to disaster.
Yes on last Christmas night we spent the night on the mountain above the basin of death in honor of those men. It is true that a bright number 19 was floating above my left shoulder. I told Joy to photograph it and by the time she got her photo it had diminished in brightness but she still caught it. Whether a reflection off thin air I do not know or how it could be there but it has raised the hairs on some peoples arms when they saw it. Those men want the truth out and I can not give any other explanation for it.
Thanks for your support and we shall continu
Hey Irish…
Go raibh maith agat , Sonny . Thoil ar aghaidh a fháil go maith . Má lorg an fhírinne dealraitheach don roinnt mar stirring an phota , ansin is é an rud amháin a dhéanamh a chuardach le haghaidh níos mó spúnóga .
( Translation… )
Thank you, Sonny. Please continue to get well. If seeking the truth appears to some as stirring the pot, then the only thing to do is look for more spoons.
Thanks Sonny. I’m glad you’re doing better. Keep seeking the truth on this like the rest of us.
“The search for truth implies a duty. One must not conceal any part of what one has recognized to be true.” Albert Einstein
WTKTT That is great advice. And we certainly welcome any new comers who want to help get the honest story of what happened to create the major tragedy on June 30, 2013. Certain members of the State in higher positions have managed to threaten people both verbally and by letter to keep what they know first hand secret so that most are afraid to give us details pertinent to understanding how management could fail so miserably in the Yarnell Hill Fire. So much cover up has created a situation that has left us no choice but to continue to dig at the real facts of what could cause the deaths of those young fire men. No one could be happy to accept the snow job we have been given.
If any awards would be given out it would be to all of those on this site who are stirring the pot to see if there are any chunks of beef hidden in the thin soup we have been fed. WTKTT and all those contributing here are the worthies bringing in the light of truth. And if any of the Irish gods of old be hanging around may they help us in our quest. Somehow I think Jesus might have fared better if he were Irish.
Sonny-
remember Jakob Salvati and how I told you that kid IS me THEN and NOW- in the movie Little Boy—I use to dress like that kid having a mother trying to glaze me to debutante way of life with dresses and style you hair but I always have remained more like Pippi-longstocking…I remember when my mother licked her finger to clear a flaw off my face because I just came from a sand box andhad dirt on my face or fell out of a high tree and scuffed myself up—I never changed.
Anyways- watch the movie again and watch the kid “Pepper” ( which by the way was my first word I learned before one years old) and watch the end at the gravesite— that kid was told his father died and he BELIEVED and I do believe there is one may it be kid KID or adult KID that truly BELIEVES one day all the details will surface and I seriously want John Dougherty to know THANK YOU for the place to come because I strongly believe as years pass one of these “kids” will arrive here and be pleased by all the efforts and research here-
Thank you for keeping this site OPEN and allowing people to share OPENLY not pretend like this never happened—it should of never happened but it did so now we need to make sure there is a spot where people can always share about the YHF and its aftermath.
THANK YOU to all that remain here and newcomers too-
man what was I doing when you wrote that?
Sun, Dec 6, 2015 at 5:17 PM
call me tonight but as soon as you get this. Not after the hour. 818 506 7889
Sent via the Samsung GALAXY S® 5, an AT&T 4G LTE smartphone
http://christianwildehealthinfo.com/
The man above cared enough to reach and speak to Sonny that sure he is weak but he will send two of his books and get the ol’ Irish back and going.
He made the lifestyle change and still quite weak—but I have confidence he will do ok—trying to read through all the pages for the ejection fraction for him—he has home evaluation home care this week but a lot of tests too—•A normal heart’s ejection fraction may be between 55 and 70.
You can have a normal ejection fraction reading and still have heart failure. If the heart muscle has become so thick and stiff that the ventricle holds a smaller-than-usual volume of blood, it might still seem to pump out a normal percentage of the blood that enters it. In reality, though, the total amount of blood pumped isn’t enough to meet your body’s needs.
cardiomyopathy I had read on one page and one was 38 and 42 but I also read awhile back 65 so we meet to see his current after last heart attack (four in a short time)
Yes, good to see Sonny trying his best to keep moving forward alive and living.
No woulda, coulda, shoulda for him- he is doing the work-
seems he is keeping his own fire alive.
or like he says…he is the walking dead—a zombie.
he tries when his body is weary-
I am gonna try and crash—hard with shingles and other areas—
just ordered a bunch of blood labs to figure where to directly focus-
Good Night.
This something I’ve had in the back of my mind for a long time. Possible scenario: the fire blows up and escapes all divisions. Plans are made to fire off around threatened subdivisions and RANCHES. GM poorly communicated their exact retreat route while forces burned out below them or in a place that caused a head fire toward them due to rapidly deteriorating weather conditions. Failure in coordination between those firing and a crew hiking out (through unburned fuel no less!.)
I believe some answers lie in the helmet cam video – right at the moments we lose audio and/or video. I could sense some very important elements are stated right after these ‘muted’ sections in the video.
Woodsman
Woodsman,
I am told the ORIGINAL Helmet Cam video has a lot more information on it based on those that actually heard the ORIGINAL, UNCUT version. However, it was heavily redacted by the so-called Powers-to-Be, allegedly the Almighty Forest Service.
Reply to Robert the Second (RTS) post on
December 9, 2015 at 8:41 am
>> RTS said…
>>
>> I am told the ORIGINAL Helmet Cam video has a lot more
>> information on it based on those that actually heard the
>> ORIGINAL, UNCUT version. However, it was heavily
>> redacted by the so-called Powers-to-Be, allegedly
>> the Almighty Forest Service.
There has never been any doubt that those video clips from the three Prescott National Forest (PNF) employees that USFS and the SAIT didn’t even really want us to know were THERE, and actively participating in the Yarnell fire ( Jason Clawson, Aaron Hulburd and KC ‘Bucky’ Yowell ) were heavily ‘edited’ before release.
They ( USFS and Arizona Forestry ) SAY so ( for some of them ), and those edits are perfectly obvious in the clips themselves ( blackouts, audio dropouts because people were reciting cellphone numbers of family members, faces of some citizens blurred, etc. etc. ).
But is has ALSO always been perfectly obvious there is some content MISSING from those clips.
The MISSING content is most likely removed from either the START or the END of some of the clips ( or both ). In other words… I think that might actually be the complete, sequential filenames of the clips from Aaron Hulburd’s camera ( because USFS knew they better not fuck with that and end up with any sequential filenames MISSING )… but the clips were ‘truncated’ and content removed from one ( or both ) ‘ends’ of the clips.
The content that remained which we weren’t supposed to hear ( such as SPGS Gary Cordes specifically requesting TFLD(t) Tyson Esquibel to send one or more engines to the Boulder Springs Ranch to make sure ‘Granite Mountain’ gets ‘out of there safely’ )… was, I believe. Just a fuck-up on someone’s part at the USFS.
They are clever… but they’re not perfect. Someone screwed up and didn’t hear the words ‘Granite Mountain’ in that radio capture so they ‘let it go’.
One of the reasons you can be sure these ‘edits’ were professionally done and still hard to detect is jsut one of the ‘blurring’ sequences.
Whoever did that ‘face blurring’ up at USFS of the citizen driving his truck out of the driveway and then stopping to ask Jason Clawson if he would help him evacuate his OTHER vehicle was really, really GOOD.
There is a spot in that sequence where, for only TWO frames of the video, the man’s face appears THROUGH the arm and elbow of Jason Clawson.
Whoever was doing the ‘face-blurring’ even caught those two frames and blurred that citizen’s face on THOSE frames along with everything else.
Not shabby. That is ‘attention to detail’ and proves that ‘editing’ was done by a PROFESSIONAL ( and not Aaron Hulburd himself ).
Some of the OTHER reasons you can ‘bet’ material was ‘chopped’ from the starts and ends of these clips would be…
1. Aaron Hulburd himself says, in one of the clips, in response to a question from KC ‘Bucky’ Yowell about whether Hulburd had been ‘filming’ everything, that YES, he had… and Hulburd then adds that he had only turned off his camera for 2 or 3 minutes and that is assumed to have been for a ‘battery change’, or something. If you add up the MISSING TIME from all those clips on the Shrine Road… it is more like 15 to 18 minutes ‘missing’ ( along with any important background radio traffic ) from that timeframe. That in NO WAY matches what Hulburd himself reported to KC ‘Bucky’ Yowell about only having stopped filming in that timeframe for ‘2 or 3 minutes’.
2. Aaron Hulburd was filming all of the vehicles that were evacuating from the Shrine Road Youth Camp area. It REMAINS ‘not credible’ that he wouldn’t have also filmed the START of the vehicles coming out which included the Granite Mountain Crew Carriers, McDonough in the GM Supt. truck, and the first Blue Ridge Crew Carrier. That sequence also would have contained some critical background radio capture(s).
3. It also remains totally NOT CREDIBLE to think that, at the end of the very last clip in this ‘hidden material’… when Hulburd and Clawson and Yowell and Frisby and Brown had climbed back up to the top of the ridge above the deployment site to begin to drive those 3 UTVs out of there and back to town… that Hulburd would have CUT OFF his filming right in the middle of the following statement…
“I guess the question that will always remain is….”
That is the moment the video ends and we don’t get to hear what the rest of that statement was… which was MOST probably something like…
“…what the fuck were they even doing down there in the first place”.
I repeat… it is HIGHLY UNLIKELY that Aaron Hulburd would have chosen that exact mid-sentence moment to switch his camera OFF.
It is MORE LIKELY someone at USFS didn’t want us to HEAR what these USFS employees actually thought the “question that will always remain” was.
Arizona Forestry went to great lengths to say that they were publishing the long-hidden evidence ‘as they received it’ from USFS in order to cover their own asses. They said so at the top of the webpage they used to first publish them.
Here again is where all those additional videos ( that had been hidden from both the SAIT and ADOSH ) were originally published on a special Arizona Forestry website page…
Arizona State Forestry
https://azsf.az.gov/New-Video-Clips
From the top of that page that has links to all the video clips…
————————————————————————
Page Title: Newly Acquired Yarnell Hill Video
On November 7, 2014, the following video clips were received by Arizona State Forestry through a Freedom of Information Act request to the US Forest Service. To be transparent with the public, the videos are presented exactly as they have been received. The redactions were done before these videos came into the possession of Arizona State Forestry.
————————————————————————-
By the way… this has been said before but bears repeating.
It is, in fact, ILLEGAL to remove material from anything that qualifies for inclusion with a valid FOIA request… UNLESS you state WHAT is being withheld and WHY. There ARE ‘exemptions’ that can be claimed when you are preparing the material… but you have to come out and MAKE the CLAIMS and state ( specifically ) which ‘allowed exemptions’ are being claimed.
It is ILLEGAL to just ‘withhold the information’ because you don’t want the requester to know it even exists.
WTKTT:
Yes. In the video of them bouncing up the 2-track in the red UTV (where they are obviously stressed and hauling ass to get to the deployment site) there is a moment where a conversation starts and audio is DROPPED. What was said at this point must be key information, IMO.
Irrelevant side note: Listening to the exchange between ‘Granite Mtn 7’ and air attack is hard to listen to. The response from the pilot would probably prompt me to visit the airbase afterwards to ‘ask’ him about it…..and that would probably be the day I got fired.
Woodsman
WTKTT,
Good job My Friend, good job.
You’re gonna love all this dealing with official PUBLIC Government ‘RECORDS’ which include recordings and video. This is gonna get deep dealing with Title 18 Criminal Code violations. And that MAY be why our WF public officials are running scared and afraid to come forward with the ORIGINAL, UNREDACTED records.
You stated: “Page Title: Newly Acquired Yarnell Hill Video – On November 7, 2014, the following video clips were received by Arizona State Forestry through a Freedom of Information Act request to the US Forest Service. To be transparent with the public, THE REDACTIONS WERE DONE BEFORE THESE VIDEOS CAME INTO THE POSSESSION OF ARIZONA STATE FORESTRY.”
…
“It is, in fact, ILLEGAL to remove material from anything that qualifies for inclusion with a valid FOIA request… UNLESS you state WHAT is being withheld and WHY. There ARE ‘exemptions’ that can be claimed when you are preparing the material… but you have to come out and MAKE the CLAIMS and state ( specifically ) which ‘allowed exemptions’ are being claimed.
It is ILLEGAL to just ‘withhold the information’ because you don’t want the requester to know it even exists.””
Yes, indeed it is illegal. See the Federal Statutes below:
http://www.justice.gov/usam/criminal-resource-manual-1663-protection-government-property-protection-public-records-and
“Title 18, Section 1663. Protection Of Government Property — Protection Of Public Records And Documents
The TAKING of a public record or document is prohibited by 18 U.S.C. § 641. The DESTRUCTION OF SUCH RECORDS may be reached under 18 U.S.C. § 1361. In both instances, however, proving a $100 loss, THE PREREQUISITE TO A FELONY CONVICTION, MAY BE DIFFICULT. THUS, NEITHER OF THESE STATUTES ADEQUATELY PROTECTS GOVERNMENT RECORDS..
The NECESSARY MEASURE OF PROTECTION for government documents and records is provided by 18 U.S.C. § 2071. Section 2071(a) contains a BROAD PROHIBITION AGAINST DESTRUCTION OF GOVERNMENT RECORDS OR ATTEMPTS TO DESTROY SUCH RECORDS. This section provides that WHOEVER: WILLFULLY AND UNLAWFULLY; CONCEALS, REMOVES, MUTILATES, OBLITERATES OR DESTROYS; OR ATTEMPTS TO CONCEAL, REMOVE, MUTILATE. OBLITERATE OR DESTROY; OR CARRIES AWAY WITH INTENT TO DESTROY WITH INTENT TO CONCEAL, REMOVE, MUTILATE, OBLITERATE OR DESTROY; ANY RECORD, PROCEEDING, MAP, BOOK, PAPER, DOCUMENT OR OTHER THING DEPOSITED IN ANY PUBLIC OFFICE may be punished by imprisonment for three years, a $2, 000 fine, or both.
There are several important aspects to this offense. First, it is a SPECIFIC INTENT CRIME. This means that the defendant MUST ACT INTENTIONALLY WITH KNOWLEDGE THAT HE IS VIOLATING THE LAW. See United States v. Simpson, 460 F.2d 515, 518 (9th Cir. 1972). Moreover, one case has suggested that this specific intent requires that the defendant know that the documents involved are public records. See United States v. DeGroat, 30 F. 764, 765 (E.D.Mich. 1887).
The ACTS PROSCRIBED by this section are DEFINED BROADLY. Essentially three types of conduct are prohibited by 18 U.S.C. § 2071(a). These are: (1) CONCEALMENT, REMOVAL, MUTILATION, OBLITERATION OR DESTRUCTION OF RECORDS; (2) ANY ATTEMPT TO COMMIT THESE PROSCRIBED ACTS; and (3) CARRYING AWAY ANY RECORD WITH THE INTENT TO CONCEAL, REMOVE, MUTILATE OR DESTROY IT. It should be noted that ALL OF THESE ACTS INVOLVE EITHER MISAPPROPRIATION OF OR DAMAGE TO PUBLIC RECORDS. This has led one court to conclude that the mere photocopying of these records does not violate 18 U.S.C. § 2071. See United States v. Rosner, 352 F. Supp. 915, 919-22 (S.D.N.Y. 1972).
Subsection (b) of 18 U.S.C. § 2071 contains a similar prohibition specifically directed at custodians of public records. Any CUSTODIAN of a public record who “willfully and unlawfully conceals, removes, mutilates, obliterates, falsifies, or destroys (any record) shall be fined not more than $2,000 or imprisoned not more than three years, or both; and shall forfeit his office and be disqualified from holding any office under the United States.” While the range of acts proscribed by this subsection is somewhat narrower than subsection (a), it does provide the ADDITIONAL PENALTY OF FORFEITURE OF POSITION with the United States.
Title 18 contains two other provisions, of somewhat narrower application, which relate to public records. Section 285 prohibits the unauthorized taking, use and attempted use of any document, record or file relating to a claim against the United States for purposes of procuring payment of that claim. Section 1506 prohibits the theft, alteration or falsification of any record or process in any court of the United States. Both of these sections are punishable by a $5,000 fine or imprisonment for five years.
[cited in USAM 9-66.400]”
The ‘RECORDS” are the Helmet Cam Video/Audio Recordings created by a Government Official on official WF business in performance of his official duties turned these over to a higher ranking official in the USFS. These USFS officials then became the CUSTODIAN(S) of those official records and allegedly engaged in the proscribed acts of: (1) CONCEALMENT, REMOVAL, MUTILATION, OBLITERATION OR DESTRUCTION OF RECORDS; (2) ANY ATTEMPT TO COMMIT THESE PROSCRIBED ACTS; and (3) CARRYING AWAY ANY RECORD WITH THE INTENT TO CONCEAL, REMOVE, MUTILATE OR DESTROY IT, i.e. DAMAGE TO PUBLIC RECORDS.
So then we can add onto ALL this ABOVE to ALL the following BELOW:
“OFFICIAL CERTIFICATES OR WRITINGS – 18 USC Section 1018 – Whoever, being a public officer or other person authorized by the US to make or give a certificate or other writing, knowingly makes and delivers as true such a certificate or writing, containing any statement which he knows to be false, is a case where the punishment thereof is not elsewhere expressly provided by law, shall be fined not more than $500.00 or imprisoned not more than one year, or both.”
“CONSPIRACY – 18 USC Section 371 – when two or more persons conspire either to commit any offense against the US, or any agency thereof in any manner and for any purpose, and one or more of such persons to any act to effect the object of the conspiracy shall be fined not more than $10,000 dollars or imprisoned not more than five years, or both.”
“MISPRISON OF A FELONY – 18 USC Section 4 – “Whoever, having knowledge of the actual commission of a felony cognizable by a court of the US, conceals and does not as soon as possible make known the same to some judge or other person in civil or military authority in the US, shall be fined not more than $500.00 or imprisoned not more than three years, or both.”
“MAIL FRAUD – 18 USC Section 1341 – the elements are (1) a scheme to defraud, (2) which involves a use of the mails, (3) for the purpose of executing the scheme. It need not depend on the actual success of the scheme depended on the mailings; must have specific intent, knowing it was illegal and that the thing mailed was an integral part of the execution of the scheme; and it is sufficient for the indictment to allege that merely use of the mails to further the scheme.”
“FRAUD BY WIRE, RADIO, OR TELEVISION – 18 USC Section 1343 – Whoever, having devised or intending to devise any scheme or artifice to defraud, or for obtaining money or property by means of false or fraudulent pretenses. representations, or promises, transmits or cause to be transmitted by means of wire, radio, or television communication in interstate or foreign commerce, any writing, signs, signals, pictures, or sounds for the purpose of executing such scheme or artifice, shall be fined no more than $1,000.00 or imprisoned not more than five years, or both.”
“FRAUD AND FALSE STATEMENTS – 18 USC Section 1001 – Whoever, in any matter within the jurisdiction of any department or agency of the US knowingly and willfully falsifies, conceals or covers up by any trick, scheme, or device a material fact, or makes any false, fictitious or fraudulent statements or representations, or makes or uses any false writing or document knowing the same to contain any false statement or entry hall be fined not more than $10,000.00 or imprisoned not more than five years, or both.”
“RACKETEERING – 18 USC Section 1961, 1962 – “Racketeering activity” means … (B) any act which is indictable under any of the following provisions of title 18, United States Code: … Section 1341 (relating to mail fraud) , Section 1343 (relating to wire fraud) …(5) pattern of racketeering activity” requires at least two acts of racketeering activity , one of which occurred after the effective date of this chapter and the last of which occurred within ten years … after the commission of a prior act of racketeering activity.”
All the above citations were from about 1989 to 2000 era, so some of the verbiage may have changed slightly, but you will get the drift of it all. So, I am alleging that Federal Crimes were committed by USDA USFS Federal Officials in the ILLEGAL redaction of public records, i.e. the HELMET CAM VIDEOS.
This is all Federal law and I am sure that Arizona law has similar statutes relating to the above.
So, going through all the above, in summary, the Helmet Cam video was a Federal record, taken by a Federal official (WFF), on official duty, who then turned over a TRUE AND ACCURATE, COMPLETE, UNREDACTED VIDEO to a USDA USFS Public Official, which was REDACTED BY USDA USFS PUBLIC OFFICIAL(S), then turned over to Arizona State Public Official(s) who admitted that all “THE REDACTIONS WERE DONE BEFORE THESE VIDEOS CAME INTO THE POSSESSION OF ARIZONA STATE FORESTRY.”
The following Federal violations are alleged regarding Yarnell Hill Fire Investigation Records:
(1) CONSPIRACY – 18 USC Section 371 (when they no doubt planned this whole affair in person and on the phone and in emails); AND
(2) OFFICIAL CERTIFICATES OR WRITINGS – 18 USC Section 1018 (claiming that these were true and accurate records based on them being the Custodian of the records); AND
(3) MISPRISON OF A FELONY – 18 USC Section 4 (when those that knew this was illegal said and did nothing about it); AND
(4) MAIL FRAUD – 18 USC Section 1341 (when they mailed and/or caused to be mailed the illegally redacted record); AND
(5) FRAUD BY WIRE, RADIO, OR TELEVISION – 18 USC Section 1343 (when they illegally emailed, phone called, etc. the illegally redacted records); AND
(6) FRAUD AND FALSE STATEMENTS – 18 USC Section 1001 (when they falsely and illegally certified these as true and accurate records); AND finally (and best of all)
(7) RACKETEERING – 18 USC Section 1961, 1962 (when they mailed and emailed said illegally redacted documents as true and accurate records within a ten year period).
WTF, OVER!?
I am no WTKTT and will not provide the expert Sherlock Holmesian analysis he is so good at and always does. I will leave it up you, the reader, to determine the extent of this ALLEGED criminal, fraudulent, illegal activities based on the conclusions you will come to reading through the statutes and comparing them to the USDA USFS actions regarding the records. NO ONE is above the law!
Reply to Robert the Second (RTS) post on
December 9, 2015 at 8:09 pm
RTS… fantastic ’roundup’ of the things any number of people could ( should? ) be charged with regarding just this these ‘Aaron Hulburd’ videos alone.
However… let me make one thing clear that I don’t think I did a good job of up above.
The OBVIOUS redactions in the long-hidden evidence videos that USFS finally ‘coughed up’ ( thanks to John Dougherty and InvestigativeMEDIA ) in November of 2014 WERE, in fact, ‘claimed exemptions’ by USFS according to ‘FOIA Exemption rule 6 – protection of privacy’.
See this post to Woodsman up above that has a link to the actual letter that John Dougherty received from USFS when HE finally received HIS copies of the long-hidden evidence from USFS…
http://www.investigativemedia.com/please-begin-yarnell-hill-fire-chapter-xvii-here/#comment-318579
If I can get away with TWO links in this message ( sometimes that works )… here is a link to that actual ‘response letter’ Mr. Dougherty received where USFS is officially claiming FOIA Exemption 6 for the OBVIOUS edits/redactions in the VISIBLE part of what they were releasing in November, 2014…
Mr. Dougherty published a copy of that ‘letter’ he received from USFS at the following link…
http://www.investigativemedia.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/11/usfs-foia-response-yarnell-videos-11-7-14.pdf
But that is all NOT what I was talking about up above.
I was talking about what I believe are also ‘obvious edits’ and/or ‘modifications’ to the original videos that are NOT MENTIONED by USFS and were NOT also being declared and/or included in any stated ‘FOIA Exemption 6’ declaration(s).
Things like portions of some of the content of some of the clips simply being ‘chopped off’ from either the start of the end of the ORIGINAL MATERIAL.
As Marti reminded us… when we were talking about all this before… one of the things we DID prove beyond a shadow of a doubt is that NONE of the videos that were released were a ‘byte for byte’ copy of the ORIGINALS ( as required by law if no ‘edits’ are being claimed under any ‘exemption’ rule ).
NONE of those videos released in response to a valid FOIA request from InvestigativeMEDIA are ‘byte for byte’ copies of the originals… including the ones where USFS is claiming no ‘edits’ were made and no ‘FOIA exemptions’ are being claimed.
There is EXIF data MISSING from ALL of the material that was released by USFS… and so NONE of the videos are ‘byte for byte’ digital copies of the originals… as required by LAW.
InvestigativeMEDIA could STILL file an FOIA appeal regarding the original request and demand ‘byte for byte’ digital copies of the ORIGINALS.
The letter could say…
“Nice try, fellas… but where are the ORIGINALS. What you sent me are NOT ‘byte for byte’ copies of the original material as required by law”.
WTKTT and RTS~
I’m wondering if this also applies to the heavily redacted Blue Ridge IHC reports and also the Peeples Valley Crew’s images and reports.
Regarding the BR IHC reports (not looking at that stuff cuz I still haven’t schlepped my hard drives over), IIRC, those redactions were, supposedly, done cuz “Privacy” but I don’t believe that for a second.
The Peeples Valley stuff, on the other hand, just….disappeared or “something.”
And then there’s the whole issue regarding the alleged (by Sonny and Joy) shredding of Dispatch records. That would be a state thing, I guess, but, still…..????????
The other thing that has really bugged me but I haven’t quite known how to articulate it is that there were news reports that came out that included audio snippets of, I think, Dispatch conversations that we have never been provided anywhere. Does that ring any bells?
“Robert the Second says DECEMBER 9, 2015 AT 8:41 AM
Woodsman,
I am told the ORIGINAL Helmet Cam video has a lot more information on it based on those that actually heard the ORIGINAL, UNCUT version.”
You are saying “video” and “version.” Singular. Were you TOLD that the “original……video” was one video?
When these videos came out we spent some time trying to figure out what kind of camera was used to shoot them, in order to try to figure out what the camera’s capabilities, file types, file lengths, etc, were, since the metadata had been stripped (ahem).
Not being one who uses this kind of stuff (I still find video more of a pita than it’s worth in my kind of work), I spent about a week researching these cameras. I figured out that the camera Aaron was using on Shrine Road was a Sony (because of the major optical zoom). Since it was a year ago that I did that, I have no idea exactly what conclusion I came to as to all of that. But we talked about it then a lot here.
WTKTT says he thinks the file names are the original ones. I’m not at all sure about that. But it would help to know if you were told singular or plural.
Peace?
Marti,
I recall the time we were discussing about the device(s) used in this.
When I say HELMET CAM VIDEO, I am referring to ALL of the video and audio recordings made by Aaron Hulbert during and after the GMHS June 30, 2013, deployment and fatalities in the PLURAL, even though they may have been done by devices other than a helmet cam.
Marti,
Of course, Peace!
OK. Thanks. That helps. It may be that WTKTT is correct in that the file names are the originals. But that’s what I wanted to possibly pin down via my question.
I also agree with WTKTT that what should have been supplied via the AZDF FOIA of the videos should have been the original videos with the metadata intact. That’s not what happened.
I think it was definitely a CYA on the part of both AZDF and USFS while the rumors (and Donut-generated narratives) regarding the “argument” “video” (which we still haven’t seen the evidence regarding) were beginning to surface.
Marti,
There were MANY WFF that day that heard the GMHS “argument” “discussing our options” audio that day that were monitoring the GMHS on their Crew Net channel.
Moreover, Willis admitted in the News Conference video “… we were able to monitor the radio frequencies … and knew they were done with their assignment and heading south …” to protect “those” structures (likely the BSR).
There will hopefully someday be an “argument video/audio” because that should have been on the Helmet Cam video.
And when the UNREDACTED Helmet Cam audio is FINALLY released, it will be in there as well.
BINGO.
Thank you for that.
I was also wondering, when Aaron’s videos were released, if that “argument” might have been recorded on his earlier videos, which were taken during the burn-out operation on Model Creek Road, with a different and earlier-manufactured camera, which was only capable, I think, of recording shorter videos.
That operation was happening between 3:30 and 4:00 PM.
Reply to Marti Reed post on December 9, 2015 at 5:59 pm
>> Marti said…
>>
>> When these videos came out we spent some time trying
>> to figure out what kind of camera was used to shoot them,
>> in order to try to figure out what the camera’s capabilities,
>> file types, file lengths, etc, were, since the metadata
>> had been stripped (ahem).
Yes. Without that ‘original metadata’ it was impossible to say exactly when even the device thought the videos were ‘shot’ ( time/date )… but exactly what DEVICE was used to create them so we could verify the filenames.
Example: Was it really one of the devices that, even when shooting continuous video, would ‘automatically’ be creating separate ( short ) sequential files, like some devices do.
That is also when we PROVED that the USFS had NOT ‘legally complied’ with InvetigativeMEDIA’s original FOIA request.
USFS claimed ( valid ) ‘FOI Exemption 6’ for the ones they were admitting to having edited ( blackouts of bodies, audio removal of cellphone numbers, blurring of a citizen’s face, etc. )… and those videos had an ‘R’ added to the ends of the filenames.
So obviously those were not going to be ‘byte for byte’ digitial copies of the originals, as required by law.
But for ALL of the other videos where NO EDITS were being claimed at all… we ALSO proved they were NOT ‘byte for byte digital copies of the originals’… as required by LAW.
ALL of those videos had important ‘evidence’ REMOVED.
The complete (original) EXIF data.
InvestigateMEDIA could ( should? ) STILL file an ‘appeal’ ( as allowed by law ) of that original FOIA response, using the same case tracking number for the original request, and raise this issue that the original FOIA request is still ‘pending’ and needs proper, valid, LEGAL fulfillment because what WAS supplied is obvious NOT what is required by LAW.
Byte-for-byte digital copies of the original material, including ALL original EXIF data. ( Device used, original time/date, original length, etc,, etc. ).
>> Marti also said…
>>
>> I figured out that the camera Aaron was using on Shrine
>> Road was a Sony (because of the major optical zoom).
Yes… and one of the other things that definitely pointed to a ‘Sony’ device was the fact that even though what USFS supplied in response to the FOIA request were not ‘byte for byte digital copies’ of the originals… they appeared to have kept the original filenames AND the file extension… which was .MPG ( and not .MP4 or .MOV or anything else ).
That also ‘narrows it down’ to the ‘Sony’ devices.
>> Marti also said…
>>
>> Since it was a year ago that I did that, I have no idea
>> exactly what conclusion I came to as to all of that.
>> But we talked about it then a lot here.
The importance of knowing the exact device is to determine whether not it really was one of the devices on the market that will ‘automatically’ be chopping ‘contiguous video’ into smaller ( sequential ) video ‘clips’ on the device.
The ‘brick wall’ we ran into was that these files were SO ‘altered’ and were SO much NOT ‘byte for byte copies of the originals’ ( as required by LAW )… there was no way to determine the device since so much EXIF data have been REMOVED.
>> Marti also said…
>>
>> WTKTT says he thinks the file names are the original ones.
>> I’m not at all sure about that.
Neither am I, really. That’s just ‘where we left it’.
We ‘left it’ at ASSUMING that what USFS supplied were the original file sequence names… but because so much original EXIF data was (obviously) REMOVED from what USFS released… we could not prove if Aaron Hulburd was really turning his camera on and off as much as the clips seemed to indicate he was… or whether the device was shooting continuous video and just ‘automatically’ creating sequential filenames… and someone was ‘chopping off’ segments from the START and END of the clips and ‘shortening them’.
Bottom line: I still do NOT believe that Hulburd was turning his camera ON and OFF during that Shrine Road timeframe as much as the video clips that were released would have us believe.
It’s just not credible. Never has been.
Just another Example: In the video that actually captured the moment when Brian Frisby and Trueheart Brown first appeared coming from the Youth Camp and then STOPPED there near the parking lot and Brown greeted KC ‘Bucky’ Yowell with…
“We were just tryin’ to make sure fuckin’ idiots weren’t burning themselves up. God daaamn!”
…it turns out that they stopped right there where the dirt road met the pavement and both KC ‘Bucky’ Yowell and Aaron Hulburd then walked TOWARDS them where they were already talking to Jason Clawson.
This is the moment that even the SAIR said that Frisby and Brown were “sharing what they knew about Granite Mountain”.
There was absolutely NO REASON for Hulburd to have suddenly turned his camera OFF as that ‘conversation’ was just starting…
…but that’s what the clip released by USFS would have us believe.
woodsman…the game of hot and cold…Keep researching this out…you are okay on feeling redacted information and omitted information reveals how hot u r…Keep peeling..maybe one day true brown frisby not Paul Morin and tarr can open up much more even missed…
Not
The word not should not be there
Darn talk to text
I never said even missed I said musser
Musser’s at the top of MY list. For a whole bunch of things.
So I’m getting warmer or hot?
When I listened to the helmet cam video, I remember one firefighter saying, “why?!?” when they were talking about the location of GM…like ‘why are they there or why did they go there??!!?’ That’s what it sounded like to me. Just after this statement, the answer to this question was coming……..then video was muted.
All these riddles to solve….it would have been way easier to tell the whole truth up front and deal with it than this. The prolonged ‘game’ makes it all worse. I don’t see how families, firefighters, and managers can possibly have closure. I pray for those that have lost so much but I also pray for those that are withholding serious evidence as well. It must be a hell of a burden on them.
So continues the process of hypothesis development and testing…the scientific method. The truth will come out. It must.
Woodsman
Woodsman,
I continue to allege that the SAIT was following the established Federal model of FIRST ESTABLISH A CONCLUSION, THEN FIND THE FACTS TO FIT THAT CONCLUSION.
“The [SAIT] found NO INDICATION OF NEGLIGENCE, RECKLESS ACTIONS, OR VIOLATIONS OF POLICY OR PROTOCOL.”
So what’s the problem. they did everything right, it was “just one of those things that happens, and “it was just an accident.” What’s the big deal, nothing to see here, move on. “They’re heroes that willingly gave their lives” Leave it alone, let it go …. WTF!?
Joy,
you said: “maybe one day true brown frisby not Paul Morin and tarr can open up much more even missed…”
So which one visited Sonny and/or you recently? Can I just have the initials?
Colder or warmer?
Which person’s information should I look over more closely?
Thanks!
Woodsman
the one who visited Sonny in the hospital—he is an officer now retired with court order threatening his retirement as well…come in person to learn name like Dr Ted Putnam and John Dougherty did—due to the people who seek to hide the truth
the one who visited Sonny in the hospital—he is an officer now retired with court order threatening his retirement as well…come in person to learn name like Dr Ted Putnam and John Dougherty did—due to the people who seek to hide the truth
Joy,
I wish I could come in person. I’ll let you know if I ever end up in the area.
A court order to keep someone quiet huh? How does that work? I can understand slander but truth? Must be real, real bad things went down that day. Real bad.
Thank you.
Woodsman
Real sad…
Yes it is sad…what several did that day was bad…if you study our rules just a tad…you will see why we’re so mad…
…..the only thing missing is a hanging chad…
But SOME of us refuse to continue being had.
Reply to Woodsman post on
December 9, 2015 at 1:33 pm
>> Woodsman said…
>>
>> …..the only thing missing is a hanging chad…
By the time this over… I believe there well might be some ‘hung chads’ ( or ‘hung chaps’ ).
I’m not talking about the ‘gallows’, of course ( and not even so much about June 30, 2013 )…
…but I believe there is more than enough evidence already ‘on the table’ that a LOT of people have broken a LOT of LAWS in their ongoing attempts to prevent the TRUTH from coming out following this tragic ( historic ) incident in that totally tax-payer funded workplace.
WTKTT,
See my post below discussing the 18 USC criminal statutes dealing with Public Records at
Robert the Second says
December 9, 2015 at 8:09 pm
locals I can now tell you what I told yo private— it was Cheryl Burgess home that was on fire and yrd sale brenda told water company bri and pat fisher her five dogs died in fire…keep you posted. cheryl, if you see this message first before email or phone messages I am with sonny but you always know the desert walker can rearrange things tohelp you with the aftermath of this loss and do clean up for free….i am very sorry while you were on vacation ou lost your ranch to an electrical concern. Prayers to u and Jerry and I am here for you Cheryl—so sorry…I can say as eyewitness because I was on Weavers Congress side and took photos…called Ronda and text to confirm i was not her place and immediately I got there and Congress fire dept were superfast and very proud and I just am confused how your animals died if Jerry stayed behind…I know you are taking bus home but call me 480-280-5813 if I can assist in oplane ticket
This, the work that you are doing, Joy, is why I haven’t written my signature on some pieces of paper you have been sending me.
I just decided to say that here, since I am still being vastly irresponsible regarding my email.
Sonny. Keep Kicking!!
I hadn’t had a chance to write this til now.
I noted with interest your description of the work that was done on the Helms Ranch and the (now I can’t remember exactly what you called it) special circumstances applied to it during that two-week period leading up to the Yarnell Fire. As in, was somebody planning to do a Prescription Burn there at that time?
I just don’t think a Prescription Burn would have been planned there during that time. As I understand it, most Prescription Burns happen during much lower-danger periods. Especially now, after the Cerro Grande Fire near Los Alamos. Those two weeks in June of 2013 wouldn’t have fit into that framework, unless I am missing something.
Regarding a possible back-fire near there during the Yarnell Fire. Except for what you have said, we still have no EVIDENCE of something like that having happened.
You are saying there was a backfire lit from Shrine Road. Unless I am missing something, we have no evidence of that either. Am I missing something? And even if what you are saying is true, imho, I don’t think a backfire from Shrine Road could have spread faster than just the basic fricking wildfire turning around and heading down into the Glen Ilah vis a vis the photos and videos we have.
To be perfectly honest, some of this (but not limited to this) is why I said, somewhere upstream or downstream, that Paul Musser is at the top of my list of people we need to hear a eholr lot more from. From the records we have, we have no records of anybody actually setting back-burns from anywhere either near the Helms Ranch or Shrine Road.
But since he made himself Field OPS on the south part of the fire after the fire reversed direction, he would have been the person responsible for either of what you are writing about happening.
With natural tear drop glazing down my right cheek.
Thank you.
I have two brain tumors but I am feeling a possible third two inches above my right in hair and the pain…thanks to sonny he is buying me urgent blood and urine labs to test my cancer markers, liver, pancreas, chest, kidney, etc…thank you Marti and Sonny.
I have been like that since a tot Marti…helping others for free just a natural thing for me…I think Cheryl Burgess is 66-70 age range…a rancher gal…so I know the loss is going to be hard…
Again thank u Marti
Namaste
Reply to Marti Reed post on December 9, 2015 at 10:09 pm
>> Marti said…
>>
>> Regarding a possible back-fire near there during the Yarnell Fire.
>> Except for what you have said, we still have no EVIDENCE
>> of something like that having happened.
Correct.
>> Marti also said…
>>
>> You are saying there was a backfire lit from Shrine Road.
>> Unless I am missing something, we have no evidence of
>> that either. Am I missing something?
No. You are not ‘missing something’.
There is ( currently ) no evidence anything like that happened.
On the contrary… given the AIR15 Helicopter footage and all of the (eventually) released Hulburd videos showing the Shrine area… the evidence indicates there were NO backfires intentionally set anywhere on Shrine road and all the way out to the Youth Camp.
There is STILL that evidence from Captain Darby Starr ( the one who got the VFW Firefighter of the Year Award for his supposed ‘heroic’ actions out at the Youth Camp ) that he and some others THOUGHT about ‘backfiring on the way out’ ( of the Youth Camp… but he also said they did NOT ( repeat NOT ) actually do any such thing.
They were just lucky to get out of there before becoming 6 MORE bodies that would have had to have been carried out of Yarnell.
>> Marti also said…
>>
>> And even if what you are saying is true, imho, I don’t think a
>> backfire from Shrine Road could have spread faster than just
>> the basic fricking wildfire turning around and heading down
>> into the Glen Ilah vis a vis the photos and videos we have.
The AIR15 News Helicopter video also supports that.
It’s THE ATTACK OF THE GOOD IDEA PEOPLE: new and improved fire shelters from NASA no less and just a teensie weensie bit heavier! Where does it stop?
http://dcourier.com/Main.asp?SectionID=1&SubSectionID=1&ArticleID=152544
Fire shelters are NOT the answer. They are a Last Resort for when you or someone else has really f**ked up!
No ‘new’ temperature survivability numbers.
No ‘new’ flame contact tolerance information.
No ‘new’ $$$$ cost estimates.
No results mentioned at all from the already-performed ‘Canadian field test’.
Just a whole lot of “Hey!… we might be on to something!” bullshit.
You have to love this comment left on the article…
———————————————–
Wallace Teto
The limiting oxygen index for diffusion flames is 13-14%. Humans can survive at levels down to 10%, though they may be in a state of unconsciousness. Yes there is “breathable oxygen” during a fire, otherwise there would be no fire, and both the fire and humans make use of it. Since a human can survive at a lower rate than combustion (even conflagration), the human would out-live the fire if he were protected in all other aspects.
———————————————–
“protected in all other aspects”.
OMFG… seriously?
And then there is this comment…
———————————————–
William Gauslow · Grand Forks Central High School
In theory, your on the right track. If enough air pressure is inside the shelter and the shelter is sealed, there’s less chance of smoke getting (in). Get on with it. Great news !
———————————————–
Double OMFG.
But I suppose the ‘clincher’ was this statement in the article itself…
———————————————————–
“The Granite Mountain Hotshots found themselves trapped in a spot on Yarnell Hill where the fire was directly on them and they burned to death, dying in their shelters”.
———————————————————–
‘found themselves trapped”.
Yea. Right. Like General Custer just ‘found himself trapped’ by hostile Indians.
When, oh when, will people realize this is “GOT themselves trapped”, not “FOUND themselves trapped” like they were just walking in a fuel bed like a bunch of tourists and it was suddenly “Oh my God… look… there’s a FIRE! Where did THAT come from!”.
If they had followed the hard-wrought rules of their OWN profession… the only thing they would have ‘found themselves’ doing that day was going HOME to their LOVED ONES, like they were SUPPOSED to.
New shelters! Hell yeah…that’s what we need!!!………………………………….insert largest eyeroll I’ve ever expressed in my entire life…………..right………..HERE!!
Can you understand why I would roll my eyes like that? You don’t? Think real hard for me. You can do it. I know you can.
May as well implement Watchout #19 along with the new shelters…………..RTS, please construct a new proposed Watchout #19 for me with the new shelters. Shine the light of reality for the rest of the world like you do so well.
Thanks in advance!
Woodsman
“The Granite Mountain Hotshots found themselves trapped in a spot on Yarnell Hill where the fire was directly on them and they burned to death, dying in their shelters.”
I am SO sick of this feculence! Yup, they just ‘found themselves trapped … like …’ Ladee f**king dah, look what just happened, we just found ourselves trapped … how TF did that happen?
OMG, they’re just victims, it’s NOT their fault … it’s EVERYONE ELSES FAULT but definitely NOT THEIR fault. WTF, OVER!
We could just add ‘ATTACKS OF THE GOOD IDEA PEOPLE’ to Watch Out #19.
The. Big. Bad. Fire. Just. Came. And. Got. Them.
666666666666 | 999999999999 | 666666666666 ( Huge eyeroll ).
My response could not add to the rest!
“A POTATO BAKER IS A POTATO BAKER IS A POTATO BAKER”
#19— FOLLOW THE ABOVE RUELS AND YOU WILL NEVER HAVE TO USE ONE.
Look at Canada and consider why we continue to play this game ?????
One foot in the Black and bring your safety zone with you.
Avoid high risk indirect line.
LCES Is critical at all times. Every Fucking Minuet follow the 10 and 18. Old School————–
>> On December 8, 2015 at 9:37 pm, Woodsman said…
>>
>> New shelters! Hell yeah…that’s what we need!!!
>> insert largest eyeroll I’ve ever expressed in my entire
>> life…………..right………..HERE!!
Okay… here you go… ( before there were emoticons, this is how an eyeroll would be done in TEXT mode on places like USENET )…
66 | 99 | 66
So the largest one you’ve ever done probably looked like…
666666666666666666 | 999999999999999999 | 666666666666666666
That looks about right, haha!
The topic of improving shelters (again) stirs such emotion in me that it’s hard to keep my thoughts straight. So this may not make much sense but here goes:
A wildfire has no conscience. It does not discriminate. It does not seek out targets to destroy. It is a chemical process and chain reaction called oxidation. It needs oxygen, heat and fuel to self-sustain. If you get in the way of this chemical chain reaction, you become fuel and part of this process. Nobody wants this to happen so we have rules to follow. LCES and Standard Orders. A shelter that is of a size and weight that will protect a firefighter from the energy release from this self-sustaining chemical reaction would be absurdly cumbersome to carry and would introduce several safety concerns of itself…both PHYSICAL and MENTAL.
Safety is an attitude. A culture of safety taught and learned…or not. I don’t care what the shelter is made of, it will not keep you safe without a safe attitude.
Woodsman
Well said young man, well said.
The ONLY human MANUFACTURED safety PPE product that would totally protect us just MIGHT be shipping containers made of the BLACK BOX MATERIAL used to house aircraft voice and flight control data recordings. And we sure the f**k are NOT gonna carry these mama tappers around with us …
WATCH OUT #19
Initiated AFTER the 1985 fire season (Wheeler and Butte Fires)
* OVERHEAD
* GRAVITY (TREES, SNAGS, HAZARD TREES, WIDOW MAKER LIMBS, ETC.)
* ROCKS AND OTHER ROLLING DEBRIS (yes, I know, it’s still gravity … )
* LIGHTNING
* AIRCRAFT
* AERIAL IGNITION
* POWERLINES
* WEATHER MODIFICATION – GEOENGINEERING
So… just for clarification…
The current list of things that are enumerated for WATCH OUT #19 ( DEATH FROM ABOVE ) does NOT include “YOUR SUPERVISOR(S)”?
I actually thought it did.
If it doesn’t… we’ve got a lot of dead ( and/or badly burned ) bodies since June 29, 2013 that pretty much prove it SHOULD be right there on that ‘WATCH OUT’ list.
( Yarnell Fire, Valley Fire, Twisp Fire, etc. )
Whoops… I see that ‘OVERHEAD’ is actually ‘on the list’.
Is that the warning to all WFF to always make extra sure your ( current ) supervisors don’t have their collective heads up their collective asses?
WTKTT,
Yes, something like that. When you read the alleged ‘Factual’ Serious Accident ‘Investigation’ Reports of fatalites and burnovers, fire shelter deployment fires, one finds that OVERHEAD are responsible for making poor decisions, bad decisions, and even no decisions, so that YOU will make the decision for them. If it works out well, fine, and if not, then YOU made the decision, not me, to deflect blame. It is ALWAYS up to the WFF and/or supervisor on-the-ground at the time to make the right, safe, sound decision based on the tried-and-trued Basic WFF Rules.
One must always question their overhead about their experience, training, and the like AND ask if they have ever deployed a fire shelter on a fire assignment. Sometimes, the overhead get pissed about this one, saying things like, ‘You’re accusing us of killing WFF. Negative, your DECISIONS and ACTIONS are killing WFF. It’s NOT f**king personal.
The old times need to come back Forget ICS.
Bake in the day Sector Bosses had 2 or 3 crews on a Sector
Division bosses had 3 Sectors.
Very seldom did we not know each other and the Crew Bosses. If we did not we made an effort to talk and get a feeling for each crew. I have had crews from all different types and mixtures on a Sector or Division.
We were Wild Land Fire Fighters not the Mixture we see today. I was never on a Fire where I did not know some of the overhead and the FIRE BOSS.
Hot Shot Superintendents Refused assignments and biased those refusals on the 10 and 13.
No one filed complaints up or down we worked together.
I am at a total loss in todays culture.
When a Fire goes to hell Get in the Black stay in the Black
Never ever walk thru unburned fuel in those conditions.
And NEVER EVER walk into a unburned CANYON CHIMINY OR CHUTE.
Enough of my ranting it is and always has been
FIGHT FIRE AGGRESIVELY BUT PROVIDE FOR—SAFETY FIRST —-
ANY BODY THAT DOSE NOT UNDERSTAND FIRE FIGHTING ORDER #10 NEEDS TO TURN IN THERE RED CARD AND FIND A DESK JOB.
This if from Moron McDonough’s ADOSH interview:
The ‘Investigator(s)’ asked if they (GMHS) followed/had the 10 and 18 and McDonough’s reply was ‘yes, however I/we had issues with #10 Fight fire aggressively, providing for safety. It’s – it’s hillbilly. It’s what it is. … It’s old. … We’re smart. We’re a lot smarter. … we had 19 people die … they’re [10/18] not working.’ Some paraphrasing here.
They 10/18 don’t just ‘work’ – you actually have to apply them, put them in place, use them.
So then, he and anyone else that thinks that way should absolutely turn in their Red Card.
CORRECTION:
This should read, This IS from Moron McDonough’s ADOSH interview: and NOT “if.”
Bob,,
I have worked in both systems of managing fires and both can be very effective or not, depending on the the overhead does their job (s). As you know, the intent is for a “team” to come in and organize the chaos,this certainly did not happen on this incident. I don’t believe that was a failure of ICS but more a failure of the team members not taking charge of the situation- either making a viable plan or taking a “time out” and creating a plan based on the fire behavior and resources on hand.
I am in total agreement with the rest of your statement!
Fight fire aggressively, provide for safety first (last and always) and one foot in and one foot out of the black.
“I don’t believe that was a failure of ICS but more a failure of the team members not taking charge of the situation”
I’m still pinning this back to decisions made on Saturday night. And I don’t know WHO was responsible for making those decisions.
Bea Day’s FULL Type 2 IMT was available to have taken over that fire, and they were, at that time, mostly on the ground in Prescott that night. Including Bea herself, who, otherwise, lives here near me, in Rio Rancho, New Mexico. But she, and most of her team, were there, in Prescott, that night. Including a bunch of people who showed up at Yarnell the next day (ahem).
The Incident Manager, Roy Hall, spent Sunday on the phone filling in the holes in his team, instead of overseeing the fighting of the fire that he was in charge of.
Russ Shumate, the IC on the fire Saturday, was like, “WHATEVER!” when he requested a Type 2 Team for Sunday and got Roy Hall’s SHORT Type 2 team, in response.
WHATEVER!!
I really see this as a precursor to most of the chaos that ensued on Sunday, including the chaos that, miraculously, didn’t get more than 19 people killed on that fire
I had no idea of that!
And I do eye-rolls on Twitter all the time. Well, they’re called side-eyes, but they mean basically the Sam thing.
So I switched to my iPad to write this (which I actually never use here cuz ……. file access and such.
I don’t know how this will translate but here goes.
That completely inexplicable unpredictable evil and nasty FIRE- Cruella just turned on them and burned them down (Our Counselor’s story at the AMS — amirite?)
??????????
And now I’m re-learning why I hate posting here from my iPad.
Yay! It worked!!
This is so hard because of Travis Turbyfill’s dad being so insistent about it. It may very well be that fire shelters need to be improved.
But I agree that the most important fire-shelter, as we are seeing, is the area between the two ears on the inside of the head paying attention to basic safety rules and principles in spite of what ever pressures are being impressed on the firefighters that control what firefighters are doing.
In all my worst ten years of driving that included driving my daughter across Albuquerque to school and figure-skating through some of the most awful traffic in Albuquerque, I never relied on my air-bags to keep us safe. I relied on paying attention and driving defensively. I never had either an accident or a ticket during those years. I just paid attention to what was happening around me and created and kept a safety buffer around us. While driving through the worst traffic Albuquerque could throw at me.
**
** ERIC MARSH’S CELL PHONE WAS IN HIS SHIRT POCKET
Reply to Robert the Second (RTS) post on December 6, 2015 at 1:41 pm
>> RTS said…
>>
>> Each GHMS report had:
>>
>> ‘REPORTED CIRCUMSTANCES OF DEATH
>>
>> On July 1, 2013, Yavapai County officials requested assistance from the Maricopa
>> County Office of the Medical Examiner with the medicolegal death investigations
>> of 19 firefighters who died in the Yarnell Hill wildfire on June 30, 2013. Under the
>> Maricopa County Manager’s authority and direction, the Maricopa County Office
>> of the Medical Examiner examined the firefighters’ for the purpose of forensic
>> identification and postmortem evaluation. The Maricopa County Office of the
>> Medical Examiner also agreed to provide consultative services to investigating
>> authorities and the Yavapai County Medical Examiner. The Yavapai County
>> Medical Examiner agree it will certify the firefighters’ death certificates. …”
>>
>> Procedures occurred on July 2, 2013.
>>
>> Interestingly, it is documented that Marsh had a “CELL PHONE, mirror,and
>> compass in the shirt pocket.”
RTS…
I just wanted to let you know that if you thought for one second I MISSED
this little tidbit… think again.
This is actually HUGE, and thank you for posting it.
Totally out of time tonight but look for another post on this, including a link to a photo that Amanda Marsh published on her PUBLIC Facebook page back around September 28 of this year.
All of a sudden… Amanda Marsh felt the need to publish a photo of a piece of Eric’s SHIRT that she had been given and was told it was the only piece that had survived.
It just happened to be the part of his T-shirt that has the Granite Mountain Logo on it.
It is totally BURNED around the edges… but she posted it anyway and people made comments like “That is so wonderful!”.
I thought it was BIZARRE. Almost ‘macabre’.
Especially coming from someone who has always been carrying the banner of ‘sensitivity’ so high and berating others for even talking about some of the raw ‘details’ surrounding all of this.
TWO quick QUESTIONS for YOU, then, on this one.
When you say “It is documented”… do you mean it states flat-out in either the AUTOPSY and/or the TOXICOLOGY report that Eric Marsh’s ‘cell phone’ was sitting right there in his ‘shirt pocket’ as his body arrived at the Maricopa County ME’s office?
That cellphone NEVER entered the ‘evidence record’ at all. Amanda Marsh eventually said in a public interview she received it back… but never said from WHO.
Also… when you say ‘shirt pocket’… I am assuming you mean the ‘Nomex Shirt’, right?
Amanda Marsh has already proven with her PUBLICLY posted photo that (supposedly) the only thing left of Marsh’s other shirt ( his T-shirt ) was the small area that contained the GM logo.
Here is a link to that PUBLIC photo Amanda ( Beno ) Marsh posted back in September of the charred remains of Eric’s T-Shirt…
https://www.facebook.com/ericmarshfoundationforwildlandfirefighters/photos/a.718463201580199.1073741828.706170532809466/907651632661354/?type=3&theater
She posted this one to her PUBLIC ‘Eric Marsh Wildfighter Foundation’ Facebook page and the following is her own comment that accompanies the photo…
————————————————————————–
September 23, 2015
I received all the stuff that Eric had on him when he perished. I found his boots and his socks and what was left of his belt. Most importantly I found what remains of his t-shirt. Granite Mountain Interagency Hotshot Crew is all that’s left of his crew shirt. So amazing. It makes me realize how strong the crew was and is and how it will never really die. I am so grateful to have this. It has brought so much happiness to me.
————————————————————————–
I was actually wrong up above.
The photo of that only remaining piece of Marsh’s T-shirt with the burned edges DOES include most of the ‘pocket’ of the T-Shirt as well as the GM logo above it.
So, theoretically, this picture proves that if his cell phone really was in either this pocket, or his Nomex shirt pocket, it might have survived intact.
Amanda Marsh also admitted in a public interview that she eventually got Marsh’s cellphone back. She did not say from WHO, or what condition it was in, or offer any explanation why Marsh’s cellphone never seemed to have entered the evidence record but still, somehow, found its way back to HER.
>> RTS said ( regarding the reports )…
>>
>> Interestingly, it is documented that Marsh had a “CELL PHONE, mirror,and
>> compass in the shirt pocket.”
Again… when you say ‘shirt pocket’… is the report referring to his outer Nomex shirt, or his inner T-shirt?
The PUBLIC photo of the charred remains of his inner T-shirt posted by his wife indicates a cellphone *might* have survived undamaged in that shirt pocket.
All these famous quotes said today-
so let me say one
NEVER COMPLAIN…NEVER EXPLAIN…
”Never complain, never explain,” Mr. Ford once said, after he was arrested for drunken driving.
I say that because I am in pain
SO NEVER COMPLAIN
reading and on page 561 of 688 of Sonny’s doc notes
SO NEVER EXPLAIN
Reply to Robert the Second (RTS) post on
December 7, 2015 at 8:17 pm
NOTE: This was brought up from down below in a thread that was running out of room.
>> On December 7, 2015 at 7:41 pm, WTKTT asked…
>>
>> RTS… are you still able to answer some questions we might have
>> about what might be in the ACTUAL documents?
>>
>> For example… is there ANY indication of ‘Time of Death’?
>>
>> What does it SAY in any/all of the documents with regards to TOD?
>>
>> Did they just leave that blank?
>>
>> Reason I ask is that from what I am reading… some of the ‘normal’ testing that
>> can/should be performed to determine the exact state of decomposition for any
>> particular deceased person is the SAME testing that is used to try and accurately
>> determine a “Time of Death”.
>>
>> Is there ANY indication they even attempted to determine that for ANY
>> of the 19 individuals they were required to examine?
>> On December 7, 2015 at 8:17 pm, Robert the Second replied…
>>
>> WTKTT,
>>
>> There is NO mention of TIME OF DEATH for any of the GMHS, NONE.
>> There is only mention of CAUSE of death as ACCIDENTAL, with several
>> variations of ‘fighting a wildfire,’ ‘fire related injuries,’ (there were at least
>> 3 Medical Examiners performing procedures ALL day long on July 2, 2013.)
>>
>> And all them mentioned being ‘refrigerated’ prior to the procedures.
Thank you.
Everything I have read so far confirms that at the moment a body is ‘refrigerated’, that stops ALL of the ‘processes’ of decomposition that could possible lead to any ‘extraneous incidental ethyl alcohol production’ in a decomposing body.
So obviously the TIME that happened is important. It would absolutely ‘stop the clock’ on the length of time for any decomposition between TOD ( Time of Death ) and CS ( Cadaver Stabilization ).
Sorry… I’ve been doing a lot of reading and the ACRONYMS for some of this stuff are sticking in my head, at this point.
Is there anything resembling TIMES in these documents with regards to WHEN this CS ( Cadaver Stabilization ) took place… and then WHEN the blood samples were actually taken?
Again… from what I am reading… they are certainly SUPPOSED to be these TIME indications.
All kinds of WHO did WHAT, WHEN timestamps… throughout the entire process of receiving, stabilizing and examining the deceased.
It’s Industry Standard. If ANY case, anywhere, anytime involving an ‘accidental death’ ends up going to court… these are all things that both insurance companies AND other lawyers are expecting to find in the reports.
It’s disappointing to learn there is NO indication of “Time of Death” on these reports.
Again… from what I am reading that is basically REQUIRED and something that Insurance companies and lawyers would EXPECT to be there, if and when there’s any consternation about the results of the reports themselves.
It’s also disappointing from the standpoint that it means there doesn’t seem to have been some of the standard ‘testing’ done that is specifically designed to establish the exact ‘decomposition state’ of the body at the start of the examination.
Some of that is the same ‘testing’ used to determine “Time of Death”, which ( as everyone knows ) can actually be done to a very high degree of accuracy these days.
Again… THOSE ‘test results’ that THAT information becomes VERY important if/when there are ‘issues’ regarding the toxicology.
Just ‘describing’ the actual state of decomposition as ‘none’, or ‘early stage’ or ‘moderate’ or ‘heavy’ is not ideal. Only the actual DST ( Decomposition State Testing ) regime is really the ‘way to go’.
Sounds like that wasn’t done at all ( DST ).
** EDGE CASES
The thing I’m still scratching my head over are the EDGE CASES, here.
The problem in determining what the existing BAC results actually might ‘mean’ here seems to lie in explaining these obvious EDGE CASES.
ALL of these men died at relatively the same moment, under the same exact circumstances, subject to the same heat levels and the same trauma… and every one of the bodies experienced the same ‘delay’ between TOD ( Time of Death ) and CS ( Cadaver Stabilization ).
SIX of the 19 showed no BAC levels at all. Zero. Zip. Nada.
But TWO of them showed the following…
Travis Carter: .09 g% BAC
Scott Norris: .09 g% BAC
That means that at the same time SIX of the bodies were arriving at the ME office showing no BAC levels attributable to either alcohol ingestion OR any/all decompositional effects… TWO of them were also showing up LEGALLY DRUNK.
( .08 g% BAC is legally drunk in all fifty states of the US of A ).
You yourself said ( down below in this ongoing thread )…
—————————————————————
In some cases, It ( GLUCOSE information ) was specifically listed under a heading as “DECOMPOSITIONAL CHANGES” and other times in a bit more detail, e.g. “Decomposition, early to moderate,” and twice as “Early decomposition.”
—————————————————————
So I count that as THREE indications of just “Early decomposition” to only ONE mention of any “Moderate Decomposition”… and ( apparently ) NO mention of any “Heavy Decomposition” at all.
Well… from everything I am reading… a described state of just “Early Decomposition” from a bona-fide Medical Examiner in no way explains how a cadaver could be showing up at his doorstep as ‘LEGALLY DRUNK’ ( BAC over the legal limit ).
Even in a “Moderate” to “Heavy” state of decomposition, a reading as high as 0.09 would be difficult to ‘write off’ as solely due to ‘decompositional changes’.
Or at least it would be extremely RARE ( but here are TWO showing up that way from the same incident? )
So that remains a ‘head-scratcher’ right there.
Whatever explanation that tries to account for ALL of these tests results MUST be able to explain these ‘edge cases’ whereby…
** 6 are showing up with NO decompositional BAC levels at all.
** 2 are showing up as LEGALLY DRUNK with BAC levels of 0.09, even with a stated decomposition status of ONLY just “Early stage”.
Maybe I haven’t found the right document yet… but from all the ones I’ve read so far that ‘second’ edge case seems to be virtually impossible to just ‘write off’ as pure ‘decompositional changes’.
WTKTT,
The fatalities occurred between 4:30 and 5:00 PM on June 30, 2013. They GMHS bodies were transported to Maricopa County on July 1, 2013 and assumed placed in refrigeration. The autopsy procedures took place all day July 2, 2013 from around 8:00 AM until mid-day July 2, 2013 by at least three separate Medical Examiners (ME). NO specific TOD was noted on any GMHS.
You stated “ALL of these men died at relatively the same moment, under the same exact circumstances, SUBJECT TO THE SAME HEAT LEVELS AND THE SAME TRAUMA … and every one of the bodies experienced the same ‘delay’ between TOD ( Time of Death ) and CS ( Cadaver Stabilization ).” The same NEAR EXACT circumstances ,yes, but NOT the same heat levels based on individual Carboxyhemoglobin saturation levels.
They were actually NOT all “subject to the same heat levels and the same trauma: based on the Carboxyhemoglobin (pleura fluid) levels in their chests and lungs. These levels ranged from a low of 6% up to a high of 41% with one listed as “inconclusive” Carboxyhemoglobin saturation even though ‘NO EVIDENCE OF SOOT IN AIRWAYS.’
It will be interesting to check these out individually based on their locations when deceased.
The ‘inconclusive’ case also showed signs of “decomposition, early to moderate’ with a BAC 0.02g% ethyl alcohol level. The 0ther ‘early decomposition’ cases were 0.09g% and 0,02g% ethyl alcohol levels respectively.
The AVERAGE range of Carboxyhemoglobin was 17.6%. Of note, are the outliers, or what you refer to as the ‘EDGE CASES.’ And these EDGE CASES would be: Warneke had only 6% Carboxyhemoglobin and NO toxins (Benzene, Toluene, Xylene) and NO ethyl alcohol BAC. And the two 0.09g% ethyl alcohol individuals had 29% and 11% Carboxyhemoglobin respectively with one of these listed as ‘early decomposition.’. One invidual with a 0.02g% ethyl alcohol level and 11% Carboxyhemoglobin saturation level also rated as ‘early decomposition.’
The link below is from a research paper titled ‘Radiographic Manifestations of Acute Smoke Inhalation’ based on firemen and civilian case studies.
http://www.ajronline.org/doi/pdf/10.2214/ajr.129.5.865
And I concur that the “‘second’ edge case seems to be virtually impossible to just ‘write off’ as pure ‘decompositional changes’.”
Reply to Robert the Second (RTS) post on December 7, 2015 at 11:12 pm
>> RTS said…
>>
>> The fatalities occurred between 4:30 and 5:00 PM on June 30, 2013.
Accepted time of the burnover has always been 4:43 PM.
I believe someone reported that as the ‘official’ TOD listed on all the death certificates.
>> RTS also said…
>>
>> The GMHS bodies were transported to Maricopa County on July 1, 2013
>> and assumed placed in refrigeration.
I have confirmed a definite ‘time of arrival’ on that.
AZCENTRAL ( via STATter 911 News Feed )
Published July 1, 2013 by Craig Harris & Michelle Yee Hee Lee
http://www.statter911.com/2013/06/30/report-of-19-firefighters-dead-in-arizonas-yarnell-hill-fire/
—————————————————————–
A somber caravan carried bodies of the 19 firefighers killed battling the Yarnell Hill Fire to Phoenix on Monday, where the Maricopa County Medical Examiner was prepared to receive the fallen men.
The caravan headed south on Arizona 89 at the same time as a press conference in Prescott that featured Gov. Jan Brewer, Prescott Mayor Marlin Kuykendall and Prescott Fire Chief Dan Fraijo. Brewer declared a state emergency, freeing $200,000 of state funds for the firefighting effort.
The vans arrived in downtown Phoenix shortly before 12:30 p.m. The medical examiner will conduct autopsies on all 19 firefighters, said county spokeswoman Cari Gerchick. Yavapai authorities asked for help because the rural county didn’t have the resources to handle so many casualties. “It is the largest mass-casualty event in memory,” Gerchick said.
———————————————————————–
Key sentence…
“The vans arrived in downtown Phoenix shortly before 12:30 PM.
Time of Death: 4:43 PM, Sunday, June 30, 2013 ( Assumed. Could be +/- a few minutes ). Bodies delivered to Maricopa County ME’s Office: 12:30 PM, Monday, July 1, 2013.
That’s a time span of 19 hours and 47 minutes.
Add at least 13 minutes for the vans to be unloaded, and I suppose you could call the total time from “Time of Death” (TOD) to “Cadaver Stabilization” (CS) to be right around 20 hours even.
So we’re definitely about 4 hours UNDER the ’24 hour’ timeframe for the purposes of scanning the research documents.
It’s also worth noting that while the VANS that were used to transport the bodies from Yarnell were not ‘refrigerated’ vans… they were definitely modern vans with full air-conditioning and you can bet money that AC was going full blast from the time the bodies were loaded in Yarnell ( circa 10:00 AM ) until they arrived at the ME’s office ( circa 12:30 PM ). So it doesn’t matter what the temperature was outside for that long drive from Yarnell. The bodies would have been in a ‘temperature controlled’ environment for that whole 2+ hours preceding their arrival in Phoenix.
Also… SUNRISE was at 5:22 AM in Yarnell on July 1, 2013.
So that means that the bodies were only exposed to any sunlight at all that morning for a maximum of about 4.5 hours before being loaded into the air-conditioned vans.
>> RTS also wrote…
>>
>> The autopsy procedures took place all day July 2, 2013 from
>> around 8:00 AM until mid-day July 2, 2013 by at least three separate
>> Medical Examiners (ME). NO specific TOD was noted on any GMHS.
The death certificates would have been waiting on the results of the autopsies, so if the ME didn’t lift a finger to determine “Time of Death”, then when they got around to finalizing the death certificates that means someone was there just TELLING them what to write down and they were taking their word for it.
Again… someone said the TOD on all those certificates was fixed at a ‘guess’ of right around 4:43 PM, and there’s never been any significant challenge to that original ‘guess’.
>> RTS also said…
>>
>> You stated “ALL of these men died at relatively the same moment,
>> under the same exact circumstances, SUBJECT TO THE SAME HEAT
>> LEVELS AND THE SAME TRAUMA … and every one of the bodies
>> experienced the same ‘delay’ between TOD ( Time of Death ) and
>> CS ( Cadaver Stabilization ).”
>>
>> The same NEAR EXACT circumstances ,yes, but NOT the same heat
>> levels based on individual Carboxyhemoglobin saturation levels.
Yes… I understand… but see below. I’m also NOT seeing any direct ‘correlation’
between those ‘Carboxyhemoglobin saturation levels’ and any kind of automatic
increase and/or reduction in the BAC readings.
>> RTS also said…
>>
>> They were actually NOT all “subject to the same heat levels and
>> the same trauma: based on the Carboxyhemoglobin (pleura fluid)
>> levels in their chests and lungs. These levels ranged from a low of
>> 6% up to a high of 41% with one listed as “inconclusive”
>> Carboxyhemoglobin saturation even though
>> ‘NO EVIDENCE OF SOOT IN AIRWAYS.’
>>
>> It will be interesting to check these out individually based on their
>> locations when deceased.
Yes. At some point all the results need to be ‘graphed’ back onto the actual locations of the bodies back at the deployment site.
And also… Yes… the SAIT should have done this as well.
>> RTS said…
>>
>> The two 0.09 g% ethyl alcohol individuals had 29% and 11%
>> Carboxyhemoglobin respectively with one of these listed
>> as ‘early decomposition.’
Okay… sooooo… I’m not immediately seeing any direct ‘correlation’ there between the Carboxyhemoglobin levels and the two 0.09 g% ethyl alcohol ( BAC ) levels.
One of the 0.09 g% ethyl alcohol ( BAC ) level cases had way less than HALF the amount of Carboxyhemoglobin as the other one.
Which of the two Carboxyhemoglobin levels of 29% and 11% applies to the 0.09 g% ethyl alcohol ( BAC ) level case that was definitely reported as only being in the ‘early’ stages of decomposition?
Was that the 29% one… or the 11% one?
Also… are you saying there was no indication of ‘decomposition state’ for that other 0.09 g% ethyl alcohol ( BAC ) level case at all… or was this other one being reported at some ‘other’ level than just ‘Early stage’?
>> RTS also said…
>>
>> And I concur that the “‘second’ edge case seems to be virtually impossible
>> to just ‘write off’ as pure ‘decompositional changes’.”
If you read what Mr. Bob Powers has already said a number of times below, law enforcement is, apparently, ALLOWED to treat the BAC levels as ‘accurate’ as long as they are obtained with 24 hours.
There is evidence online that that is, in fact, the case and a standard for law enforcement from “sea to shining sea”.
That is… UNLESS the ME definitely says those results are NOT to be trusted as ANY indication of intoxication levels at “Time of Death”.
But some weak statement like “the results are likely” or even “the results are most likely” is not any kind of ‘definitive’ statement at all.
So, technically speaking, if this HAD been a BUS crash with 19 fatalities and the DRIVER had been either Travis Carter ( 09 g% post-mortem BAC ) or Scott Norris ( also 09 g% post-mortem BAC )… then unless there had been a stronger ‘most definitely not’ statement from the ME… law enforcement would probably be legally allowed to assume it was an intoxication-caused crash… write it up that way… and also ANNOUNCE it to the PUBLIC that way.
I’m not kidding about this.
Mr. Powers appears to be 100 percent CORRECT on this.
Law enforcement IS allowed to ‘assume’ results are accurate, if blood samples were obtained within a 24 hour period, and there is no STRONG / DEFINITIVE statement from the ME to the contrary.
And we are well BELOW that ’24 hour’ time limit in this case.
** LIVER / BILE SAMPLES
Are you SURE there is absolutely NOTHING in those reports about Liver tests or Bile sample tests? From everything I am reading… those are also STANDARD tests that are SUPPOSED to be performed for any ‘accidental death’ and/or ‘industrial accident.
** AMPHETAMINES
What’s your take on the amphetamines showing up?
Do you think that’s something a ‘rookie’ would be into just to try and keep up with the others if he’s having trouble doing that?
Don’t forget that one of the leaders of this group was an ex-Marine who loved to dance with ‘Pukie the Clown’ and make others do so as well.
Maybe Grant McKee was just doing ‘all he could’ to keep up.
I am moving this up to the top to make sure Joy doesn’t miss it and can hopefully be encouraged to be more forthcoming with the information that she is apparently sitting on.
joy a collura says
DECEMBER 7, 2015 AT 7:57 AM
Actually the toxicology report is not THE missing element but a missing factor and Gary when all the missing elements surface it is clear and I have been with true clarity since January 2015 and even much clearer after the 2015 wildland firefighters convention…I due to the sensitivity of it just wait on God’s time…yet you did peel a layer away this week but that was just a layer…
Reply
Gary Olson says
DECEMBER 7, 2015 AT 12:14 PM
Golly geez whiz and Jiminy Cricket too…here is an idea. Why don’t you just tell us what you know instead of playing at being the Oracle of Delphi?
sorry for the delay Gary-
I have been at Phnx VA dealing with many areas for Sonny- six different areas so LONG day and my back has consistently spasmed today (very painful) and my pancreas is in a lot of pain and one kidney too and I have shingles and I had very very tight squeezing some lasting 44 seconds some 18 seconds but the longest 2 minutes 31 seconds right under what most women call a left breast yet I lack them but it was a severe squeezing pain that seem to cut off circulation to my hands and feet during it making my left hand lock up claw like —like when I have seizures…I will be brief get to the point of your message than I am going to lay down.
Anyone on any side or any agenda or angle wants to sit with me in person only by appointment only with my legal representation not online or by phone or bumping into me publicly and even with sound recorder I am okay with– I am okay going over where to guide people but for me to do it here on this site would show deep disrespect to the loved ones and homeowners and break a trust with some that spoke it in private—You, Gary, know private information as well and know a certain person and have allowed that person to build a trust with you— you mentioned it to us and I never ever repeated that to a soul—
.
I won’t do it. Nancy Cameron spent 68 years— special loving years with her dream man and had a lovely life with him and her kids and to have one month later lose her home and everything and then fall with health problems when this should of NEVER as Gary would use this word FUCKING SHOULD HAVE HAPPENED—the fire getting out of hand and 19 men dying—
I won’t at all ever place words ONLINE again that would ever place me in a court room.
When my parents divorced and I saw how ugly and how wrong the court room is—
I saw at a young age how judges are not for justice…I also seen in my adult life that what one says online can be used in a court room and so you will not see me reply or speak up personally but I can say the people who directly told me information pertaining the YHF please speak up for Gary—
I can encourage that Gary—
and I think I have done that on this site for a long time.
You seem to have purchased my case…I don’t know why you do not get how I love life and I want to keep loving it away from court rooms—
Gary has been bold and does not fear a court room but I already seen the inside of Markham’s spot and I don’t want any part of it ever again in my life—
Not my job as I did ask very important behind the scenes folks if it was my job and the reply I got was it should not come from you especially without the others documentations—so for that I do know and it is NOT made up that there is MISSING ELEMENTS and that is all I can state-
I can say there is missing elements and I can say it with saying in my humble opinion or even straight up-
cuz’ there is…
you just peeled one layer of the onion that once peeled will have you in tears-
I hear you, Joy.
“Gary has been bold and does not fear a court room but I already seen the inside of Markham’s spot and I don’t want any part of it ever again in my life—”
We’re all, mostly, safely scattered to the winds and can say whatever TF we please, as I have done. You are living in, as John Trudell would say, the belly of the beast. I’ve had my own experience of “being there.”
And I would also say, although I could get slammed for this, that being a woman in these kinds of scenarios is different than being a man. That’s not an excuse or a whine or a complaint or a whatever. It’s a fact.
Namaste.
Typo.
“I’ve had my own experience of ‘being there'” should read:
“I’ve had my own experiences of ‘being there.””
There have been far many more than one.
I agree, and here’s ‘The Women’s Rules’ to prove it:
The Women’s Rules
1. The Female Always makes The Rules.
2. The Rules are subject to change at any time without prior notification.
3. No Male can possibly know all The Rules.
4. If the Female suspects the Male knows all The Rules, she must immediately change some or all of The Rules.
5. The Female is NEVER wrong.
6. If the Female is WRONG, it is because of a flagrant misunderstanding which was a direct result of something the Male did or said wrong.
7. If Rule 6 applies, the Male must apologize immediately for causing the misunderstanding.
8. The Female can change her mind at any given point in time.
9. The Male must NEVER change his mind without Express Written Consent from the Female.
10. The Female has every right to be angry or upset at any time.
11. The Male must remain calm at ALL times, unless the Female wants him to be angry or upset.
12. The Female must not, under any circumstances, let the Male know whether or not she wants him to be angry or upset.
13. Any attempt to document these rules could result in Bodily Harm.
14. The Male is expected to mind read at all times.
15. If the Female has PMS, all Rules are Null and Void (but the Male will not be told which rules these are).
16. The Female is ready when she is ready.
17. The Male must be ready at all times.
18. The Male who doesn’t abide by the Rules can’t take the heat, lacks backbone and is a wimp.
Okay… before rule number 13 above kicks in and RTS gets the shit kicked out of him… I just have to add the following which happened here TODAY.
It’s deer season here… and on the way to town today my wife and I passed some ‘Wal Mart hunters’. These are the guys who actually buy their guns and ammo from ‘Wal Mart’ and don’t even have a hunting lease anywhere. They pull of the the side of the road, sit in the backs of their pickup trucks drinking beer… and hope a deer just comes walking out of the woods so they can shoot the crap out of it.
On the BACK of the pickup truck, with 3 guys sitting on lawn chairs holding their shotguns, beers in hand, was this BUMPER STICKER ( which my wife laughed at FIRST… which then made it OK for me to laugh… which is actually rule number 19 that you left out ).
The BUMPER STICKER said…
IF A MAN SAYS SOMETHING IN THE FOREST AND THERE IS NO WOMAN AROUND TO HEAR IT… IS HE STILL WRONG?
Perfect! Women are SO awesome though; all we have to do is know and understand ‘The Women’s Rules’ to survive …
An old Irish toast…
Sláinte chuig na fir agus go maire na mná go deo!
Health to the men… but may the women live forever!
SIDENOTE: Been reading all day about cadaver decomposition so a little ‘punchy’ at this point.
QUESTION for you ( RTS )…
Are you still open to answering some more questions about the toxicology reports?
Just in case you are… here are a few I’ve come up with since the last post about it…
1. It is becoming increasingly obvious, via research, that THE most important thing about interpreting these BAC results lies in the handling of the samples. If any post-mortem BAC results are ever ‘argued about’ in court… this is the argument that even prominent ‘lawyer-type’ sites advise attorneys to focus on BECAUSE it’s so important. If the samples were NOT, themselves, refrigerated or frozen and/or the right ‘preservatives’ were not added… then by they time the testing takes place the BAC results can basically NOT be trusted at all. Is there ANY description in there of how the samples were handled and whether the industry-standard ‘preservatives’ were used.
2. Related to above… is there any indication how much TIME passed between when the samples were taken and when the results being reported in the final reports were actually determined? It matters. A LOT.
3. What reports do you actually have? Do you have BOTH the autopsy report(s) AND the toxicology… or just one or the other?
4. There has ALWAYS been a possibility that the incredibly SLOW pace seen by Granite Mountain as they descended to their deaths was because someone ( or more than one of them ) suffered some kind of ‘injury’ on the hike. Is there ANY evidence of any PHYSICAL injury to any of them ( like a sprained ankle, etc. ) in whatever it is you have access to?
Thanks, RTS, I REALLY needed to come across this, and the following comments today.
Four days after a friend of mine, struggling to hold onto a job in a testosterone-fueled hostile work environment, was raped by a co-worker.
Hmmmmmmmmmmm I wonder which of your AWESOME rules applies??? One third of all American women are raped in their lifetime (as was I when I was in college). So far, as far as I know, my daughter has not found herself in that one third. As far as I know.
Haw Haw Haw Haw Haw Yuck Yuck Yuck Yuck. Bumper Stickers be damned.
My comment was about this:
There was a heated conflict between Joy and Gary regarding how Gary thought Joy should have responded to Karen Fann’s actions and emails and statements. Joy, being right there physically on the scene, was writing about how she couldn’t fight back against Karen in the way Gary (a male safely sitting at his computer in Washington State) thought she should be doing. Or even as sharply as Sonny was writing.
I was trying to see and feel the scene through Joy’s eyes. She’s a true warrior, but her risk factor (including emotionally), as a woman right there physically on the scene, is much higher, in this kind of a situation, than any man’s. THAT is what I was speaking about.
All the crappola HAW HAW HAWS that you started, and others continued are patently offensive to me.
I have spent the last couple of days wondering, in my mind, all these things considered, how much I am going to spend my time continuing to contribute to the work on this site.
You may think it’s HAW HAW HAW HAW funny.
But I don’t.
Marti,
You posted: “Thanks, RTS, I REALLY needed to come across this, and the following comments today.”
Because I am not sure what you talking about here I will ask you: What is the “THIS, AND THE FOLLOWING COMMENTS ” that you are referring to?
“The Women’s Rules
1. The Female Always makes The Rules.
2. The Rules are subject to change at any time without prior notification.
3. No Male can possibly know all The Rules.
4. If the Female suspects the Male knows all The Rules, she must immediately change some or all of The Rules.
5. The Female is NEVER wrong.
6. If the Female is WRONG, it is because of a flagrant misunderstanding which was a direct result of something the Male did or said wrong.
7. If Rule 6 applies, the Male must apologize immediately for causing the misunderstanding.
8. The Female can change her mind at any given point in time.
9. The Male must NEVER change his mind without Express Written Consent from the Female.
10. The Female has every right to be angry or upset at any time.
11. The Male must remain calm at ALL times, unless the Female wants him to be angry or upset.
12. The Female must not, under any circumstances, let the Male know whether or not she wants him to be angry or upset.”
Marti,
Okay, fair enough. I posted that in response to your post:
‘And I would also say, although I could get slammed for this, that being a woman in these kinds of scenarios is different than being a man. That’s not an excuse or a whine or a complaint or a whatever. It’s a fact.”
I did it to kinda lighten things up a bit. It was getting pretty tense with all the toxicology stuff.
WTKTT had it figured pretty close when he posted: “Okay… before rule number 13 above kicks in and RTS gets the shit kicked out of him…”
You kinda kicked my ass for hurting you with my post. I meant no harm. I apologize Marti for doing that to you.
Thank you, RTS.
I really really really appreciate that.
Namaste.
I am sitting here trying to decide to be done with politics here. I really wish I could figure out how to do that. Because some of the issues we are discussing here are actually political.
Who, really, are the political forces that benefit from covering up what happened on this fire? As well as the other fires we have been discussing.
Who, really, are the political forces that benefit from cutting the budgets from agencies that have to fight wildfires so that they, in turn, have to cut budgets for preventing them?
Who, really, are the political forces that benefit from allowing/encouraging people to live/build with, essentially, no regulations and no liabilities in wildfire-prone locations, while expecting entities like the USFS and other land-management agencies to protect them at high costs to tax-payers?
Who, really, are the political forces that benefit from denying that greenhouse-effect carbon-emissions-based climate/weather changes are occurring?
Who, really, are the political forces that benefit from continuing to underpay wildland firefighters?
Given that we are gathered here around this campfire to discuss what went wrong, specifically, on the Yarnell Hill Wildfire, it may be the case that we shouldn’t be wandering off into the peripheral political questions that I’m asking in my above questions.
But if we are truly attempting to discover the Lessons that need to be Learned about why all of this is happening, I don’t see how we can avoid the political issues that are underpinning what is happening.
I don’t think this fire happened in a political vacuum.
But, maybe that is not the scope of what we should be discussing. Because it could get divisive and counter-productive.
I just don’t know.
Namaste, all.
I believe the GMIHC (in general) were drinking alcohol almost right up to the time they went back on the clock on June 30, 2013. And I believe their BAC from the toxicology tests prove that.
I think everyone understands this already, but I want to clearly state it in case there is any question in anyone’s mind. I do not hold anyone on the crew responsible for their being called out to the Yarnell Hill Fire with the exception of Eric Marsh. For whatever it is worth, I do not even hold Jesse Steed responsible for that because I believe Marsh had already accepted the assignment without consulting with him and I think it has been made clear to us,or at least me, that Marsh was not the kind of hotshot crew boss who listened to his staff. The crew thought they has been released and were going to be on some well deserved days off.
And I still believe that BAC and the effects of dealing with it meant all of the things we have been discussing the past couple of days. BUT…in the interest of not withholding that which may be exculpatory evidence, here is a counterpoint.
WARNING…DO NOT READ THIS UNLESS YOU ARE PREPARED TO READ SOME VERY GRAPHIC DESCRIPTIONS OF THE CONDITION OF THE GMIHC, WE CONTINUE TO HAVE OUR HEARTS BROKEN EVEN MORE ALMOST EVERY TIME WE TURN AROUND.
“According to Gary Olson, ten of the 19 deceased Granite Mountain Hotshots had ethyl alcohol in their post-mortem blood samples but not in their vitreous humor (VH, eye fluid) samples. Those that had ethyl alcohol in their VH samples had what is considered to be a de minimus post-mortem VH ethyl alcohol level (e.g. likely due to decomposition and not drinking).
This data suggests to me that the deceased Granite Mountain Hotshots who had alcohol in their bloodstream at the time of the post-mortem blood draw (or testing) likely had such not because they were drinking alcohol on the fire but because they had GLUCOSE (e.g. from Gatorade or some such) in their blood at the time of death such that there was basically fermentation due to being burned over and then left outside in the heat. (Forgive me for that language, but that is the most direct way to say it.)
Mind you, I am not a forensic medical examiner, and I only know a little bit about this area of research, but the brief explanation (as my non-scientific mind understands it) is as follows:
1. GLUCOSE and “Fermentation” or “Microbial Contamination:” If a person dies with glucose in their blood (from, say, GATORADE, which is known for its low osmolality), that glucose is known to feed fermentation which will then produce alcohol that will in turn result in essentially a false-positive BAC in post-mortem blood testing (e.g. the higher levels of alcohol did not exist in the bloodstream BEFORE death – it was a post-mortem phenomenon).
2. Decomposition: The chances of this fermentation or microbial contamination occurring goes up as decomposition and time before the post-mortem blood draw and ultimate testing increases.
3. HEAT accelerates DECOMPOSITION: If you put dead bodies through a broiling hot fire, you are going to accelerate decomposition. Multiple of the 19 deceased Granite Mountain Hotshots actually had flesh burned off of their bodies – that gives me a sense of how badly they were decomposed (how much heat their bodies were subjected to). Laying out in the sun for a couple of days is one thing; laying in a 700 degree (or hotter) wildland fire is entirely another. Those two things do not even compare. Then wait another day or two before doing the post-mortem blood draw. I’d be surprised if every single one of the 19 guys did not have some significant “fermentation” or “microbial contamination” with respect to their post-mortem blood draws.
If you truly want to consider whether alcohol was at play with the 19 deceased men, pay careful attention to the vitreous humor (VH, eye fluid) samples from the 19 deceased Granite Mountain Hotshots. If the VH samples from the 19 deceased men had high alcohol percentages inconsistent with normal decomposition in heat and a fire, then I would think harder about whether or not someone was swilling hooch on the fire or hard, hard-core the night before. But apparently the VH data was within the range of what would normally be expected (either normal or just minimally increased due to decomposition). (And, FYI, if some of the guys did not have VH data released, presumably that is because their eyes were fried by the fire such that the ME could not get a decent VH sample. Presumably those guys were the guys on the crew who died supine – face-up – such that their eyes were more directly exposed to the heat and the VH dried up. Forgive me for being so blunt. This is a horrible topic.)”
Oh…and one more thing, one of the reasons I believe this is just another smoke screen is because of the six who did not have any BAC. Everyone was guzzling Gatorade that hot and terrible day.
After extensive research… it’s an absolute FACT in the ‘forensics business’ that the ‘reliability’ of post-mortem blood samples ( from ANYWHERE in the body ) totally depends on the relative state of decomposition at the time the samples were ( finally ) taken.
That is why it is ALSO ‘industry standard’ to also include in the report the DETAILS of the condition of the body at the time the examination was begun… so that those DETAILS regarding the state of decomposition can be used as the base-level CONTEXT for interpreting the OTHER test results.
If those DETAILS about the actual state of decomposition for each and every one of the bodies examined is MISSING from those autopsy / toxicology reports… it’s a ‘botch job’.
It’s not like this is ‘new stuff’.
Bodies are examined/tested for BAC pretty much all day, every day, 24 hours a day, across this country and the world.
The techniques are known, the testing is standardized, and the interpretation of the results is now also standardized.
And from everything I have read… if there is ANY evidence of even light to moderate decomposition present at the start of the examination… then any BAC levels from anywhere in the body that are reading LESS than 0.10g are considered to be ‘statistically inconclusive’, unless there is OTHER more reliable evidence obtained to prove that these indicators are NOT the result of normal decomposition.
All that being said… you are RIGHT.
The fact that 6 ( SIX ) of the bodies showed no BAC levels at all ( either due to actual alcohol consumption OR the effects of decomposition ) is going to remain the ‘wildcard’ there when trying to interpret the other results.
If one is going to say that the other 13 ( THIRTEEN ) test results can ALL be attributed to pure ‘decomposition’ effects… then the fact that 6 ( SIX ) of the same bodies, from the same place, subject to the same trauma and the same length of time between expiration and autopsy showed nothing at all with regards to BAC levels is going to REMAIN sitting there on the table like a big fat turd.
Well…even if we concede a .01 due to decomposition for the sake of the argument, there is still a big problem for someone to wish away…right?
And I don’t think you meant to write…0.10g, right?
gee, or did you?
Yes. That’s a ZERO and a DECIMAL, then a ONE and a ZERO.
.10 percent.
From what I have read… once there is evidence of decomposition it is SOP in the ‘forensics business’ to start treating ANY BAC of LESS than 0.10 ( ZERO dot ONE ZERO ) to be ‘statistically inconclusive’.
So…
0.11 – Statistically CONCLUSIVE
0.10 – Statistically inconclusive
0.09 – Statistically inconclusing
0.08 – ditto
0.07 – ditto
On down to 0.00.
But again ( I think I’m going to put the following into a MACRO on a function key to save the typing )….
It ALL DEPENDS on the ACTUAL state of decomposition of the body at the time the blood samples were taken. That is why it is so important for that to ALSO be indicated in any autopsy / toxicology report because it ends up the base-level context for interpreting all the other test results.
Well…OK then.
By the way… in case anyone was wondering what ‘how drunk is drunk’ is ( I was ) regarding these ‘percentages’…
Here is something from online…
The table below lists some possible interpretations
of blood ethanol results:
Blood Ethanol Result: Interpretation
———————————————————
Equal to or above 80 mg/dL (0.08%):
Legal intoxication in all states
80 to 400 mg/dL (0.08% to 0.40%):
Increasing impairment and depression of central nervous system likely
Above 400 mg/dL (>0.40%):
Loss of consciousness likely; potentially fatal
——————————————————–
So at +0.40 you are either passed out ( or dead )
That means 0.20 to 0.30 is ‘shit faced’ ( but still standing )
If Mr. Powers was right about an average loss ( once you stop drinking ) of 0.01 per hour… that means if/when you get ‘shit faced’… even 24 hours later you will still be showing some BAC levels.
The .01 reduction comes from the Law enforcement training
Factoid—–
Depending on weight from between 40 minuets and 60 minuets or in simple terms we said 1 hour. being in a big county and making arrests out on the fringes trans port took 1 to 2 hours. When we got to the Jail a person that was .08 to .10 could blow below .08 at the jail which had the only official test machine that the court would accept.
Thus the rule of thumb. That has changed with the new kits that are carried now that can be used on the stop a well.
Once the body dies the BAC dose not reduce as the blood stops flowing and filtration stops. The BAC from drinking will remain constant and we go back to the question concerning the increase due to Decomposition and the reason for further tests..
The Statement STASTICALLY INCONCLUSIVE is not going to float with the Prosecutor when the new level is now ..08. I have not ever seen that on a Toxicology report. in Law Enforcement.
You go Bob!
Full Disclosure – I am a big fan of the crew being alcohol impaired because that is not their fault, they legitimately thought they were going to be on days off and all (most) good hotshots get drunk on days off so…
That should also relieve them of any collateral blame due to Group Think also known as the Abilene Paradox. So…I am just sayin’.
Although I am still going to hang my hard hat on the fact that 6 showed no signs BAC due to decomposition.
And no…I am not forgetting that some of those who loved the GMIHC are reading this callous clinical discussion of their loved ones and I know it is making everybody who is participating in this discussion as sick at heart as it is making me.
But it can’t be helped.
And it may get worse depending on the reports and the % of burns and locations of 1st. 2nd. and 3rd. degree burning and Charring even without pictures it won’t be a nice thought.
As I have said before the blame still lies with MARSH only now we have one more reason.
WTKTT,
Thanks for your research above. Going back through the reports again, I found some evidence of what you are referring to above regarding decomposition.
In only one case, it was listed under the heading of ‘SPECIAL STUDIES,’ followed by: “Vitreous humor, red top tube, is collected for electrolyte analysis, with the following results: …” In all others it just mentions the observed changes.
I list only those showing GLUCOSE in varying degrees. Four (4) GMHS, GLUCOSE findings ranged anywhere from 2 mg.mL to a high of 3 mg/mL. There were two (2) individuals at 2 mg/mL and <2 mg/mL respectively; one (1) at eleven (11) mg/mL; and one at thirty-one (31) mg/mL respectively.
In some cases, It was specifically listed under a heading as "DECOMPOSITIONAL CHANGES" and other times in a bit more detail, e.g. "Decomposition, early to moderate," and twice as "Early decomposition."
The interpretation of BAC in autopsy specimens from deceased individuals is highly contentious and great care is needed to reach valid conclusions. Vitreous humor is the recommended body fluid for determination of ethanol in postmortem toxicology to help establish whether the deceased had consumed ethanol before death. Both vitreous and illiac (cardiac) samples were taken.
The actual ethyl alcohol present in these cases ran the gamut, and ranged from 0.01g% to 0.09g%. I concede that translating the BAC into the amount of alcohol that was consumed is also subject to considerable uncertainty, however, it was interesting to note that several of the individuals having 0.02g% and above had varying amounts of IBUPROFEN in their blood suggesting hangover headaches to me.
I defer further analysis to you and others, despite the fact that the SAIT should have done all this.
RTS…
Thank you for all that… but I think it’s time to fish or cut bait here.
You are now ASKING us to ‘evaluate’ the results of autopsy / toxicology reports just based on what you are TELLING us… and ( as the above post shows ) there is obviously important information in the reports that is only coming out in ‘dribs or drabs’… or if we happen to ask the right question.
I am NOT asking you to ‘publish the reports’ that you have obviously obtained or have free access to.
But can you at least say if there are some constraints in whatever agreement it took for you to get these that would PREVENT you from ‘publishing them’.
And I mean the ACTUAL documents… and not just this ‘I’ll tell you what it says” stuff.
If you are now ASKING us to evaluate the content of documents that are obviously in your possession… I think we have a right to know why we can’t just see the documents themselves?
Forgot to mention…
The fact that the documents seem to mention ‘early’ decomposition more often than ‘moderate’ ( only once, for one body? ) is significant.
That DOES put some additional ‘context’ onto the BAC samples themselves.
From what I am reading/researching ‘out there’… a definitive description of only an ‘early’ state of decomposition coming from a bona-fide Medical Examiner would NOT account for BAC levels being as high as 0.09 just because of any decompositional processes.
So that means something.
It very much means that some of the BAC levels might easily be just some COMBINATION of both valid BAC levels at time of death AND ( some ) additional statistical ‘bump’ due to ( some ) decomposition.
So it’s not “all one thing and not the other”.
It’s more like “Some of one thing and some of the other”.
WTKTT,
Gary Olson says
December 7, 2015 at 11:32 am
Citing from an attorney’s point of view:
“If you truly want to consider whether alcohol was at play with the 19 deceased men,PAY CAREFUL ATTENTION TO THE VITREOUS HUMOR (VH, EYE FLUID) samples from the 19 deceased Granite Mountain Hotshots. If the VH samples from the 19 deceased men had high alcohol percentages inconsistent with normal decomposition in heat and a fire, then I would think harder about whether or not someone was swilling hooch on the fire or hard, hard-core the night before. But apparently the VH data was within the range of what would normally be expected (either normal or just minimally increased due to decomposition).”
YES, THE VH DATA WAS WITHIN RANGE OF WHAT WOULD NORMALLY BE EXPECTED.
I posted yesterday “In a few, the Medical Examiner noted “The ethyl alcohol detected in cardiac blood and vitreous was most likely due to decompositional changes.””
WTKTT,
For the time being, yes, there are constraints to me publishing the ACTUAL documents.
Thank you. I understand.
Are you still able to answer some questions we might have about what might be in the ACTUAL documents?
For example… is there ANY indication of ‘Time of Death’?
What does it SAY in any/all of the documents with regards to TOD?
Did they just leave that blank?
Reason I ask is that from what I am reading… some of the ‘normal’ testing that can/should be performed to determine the exact state of decomposition for any particular deceased person is the SAME testing that is used to try and accurately determine a “Time of Death”.
Is there ANY indication they even attempted to determine that for ANY of the 19 individuals they were required to examine?
WTKTT,
There is NO mention of TIME OF DEATH for any of the GMHS, NONE. There is only mention of CAUSE of death as ACCIDENTAL, with several variations of ‘fighting a wildfire,’ ‘fire related injuries,’ (there were at least 3 Medical Examiners performing procedures ALL day long on July 2, 2013.)
And all them mentioned being ‘refrigerated’ prior to the procedures.
Reply to Robert the Second ( RTS )
post on December 7, 2015 at 8:17 pm
>> RTS said…
>>
>> There is NO mention of TIME OF
>> DEATH for any of the GMHS, NONE.
>>
>> And all them mentioned being
>> ‘refrigerated’ prior to the procedures.
Thank you again, RTS.
Two important pieces of information.
The moment of ‘refrigeration’ is also known as ‘Cadaver Stabilization’ (CS) and it immediately STOPS any/all processes that even might be taking place and producing extraneous amounts of ethyl alcohol.
I posted a longer Reply ( with another quick question ) up above as a new parent comment.
Clicking the link below takes you to it…
http://www.investigativemedia.com/please-begin-yarnell-hill-fire-chapter-xvii-here/#comment-318261
Gary,
This reads like something the BWS would write, just like an attorney.
Gatorade causing the ethyl alcohol BAC amounts to be that high totally ignores the FACTS!? Give me a break!
Yup…a defense attorney who is pushing an alternative agenda, but I was trained not to withhold exculpatory evidence, so I have done my due diligence.
Correction. I should have said, “what MAY be exculpatory evidence”
Reply to Robert the Second (RTS) post on
December 7, 2015 at 12:36 pm
>> RTS said…
>>
>> Gatorade causing the ethyl alcohol BAC amounts to be that
>> high totally ignores the FACTS!? Give me a break!
Whoever wrote that is NOT wrong.
It can happen.
From everything I have now read… if there are ANY signs of even light to moderate decomposition seen at the start of the autopsy… then any blood samples have to be totally interpreted within the context of the AMOUNT of decomposition that has already taken place.
In those case ( even just light to moderate decomposition ) it is ‘industry standard’ for ME’s to say that any BAC levels less than 0.10g are ‘statistically inconclusive’.
That is why it is SO IMPORTANT for the examiner’s to RECORD ( in detail ) the actual state of decomposition of the body that is there before them when they begin their examination.
That is going to be the base-level CONTEXT for any test results that come OUT of the autopsy / toxicology.
If these Granite Mountain autopsy / toxicology reports do NOT contain detailed descriptions and/or other decomposition-related test results for each and every body that was examined… then it was a total ‘botch job’.
Reply to Gary Olson post on December 7, 2015 at 11:32 am
>> Gary Olson said…
>>
.> I believe the GMIHC (in general) were drinking alcohol almost right
>> up to the time they went back on the clock on June 30, 2013.
It’s possible SOME of them were, yes.
Former GM Hotshot Brandon Bunch’s father ( Jeff Bunch ) runs Moctezuma’s bar on Whisky Row and was there on Saturday night, June 29, 2013.
He might recall how much McDonough, Zuppiger and MacKenzie had to drink that night, and whether they were, in fact, drinking until the normal closing time of 2:00 AM.
As for the others, only more testimony from wives, family and/or friends who might be in a position to know could fill out the picture there.
According to Kyle Dickman’s book… there was a ‘white board’ at Granite Mountain’s Station 7 with the title ‘Daily Physical Percentage’ on it. As the men were checking in around 5:00 AM Sunday morning, June 30, 2013, they were supposed to jot down some indication of what they thought they had “left in the tank”.
From page 186 of Kyle Dickman’s book…
———————————————————
Marsh had decided to sleep at the station. It was more convenient than making the hour-long round-trip home to the ranch. When the men started trickling in at around 5:00 AM, he was already up, drinking his fancy coffee. He’d brewed a cup from the Jetboild he carried in his line gear pack.
On the “Daily Physical Percentages” whiteboard, some of the guys had tried to estimate what they had in the tank.
Chris MacKenzie said he was at 77 percent.
Scott Norris said he was at 74 percent.
Eric Marsh said he was only at 68 percent.
Others turned it into a joke.
Andrew Ashcraft said he was “Stache-less”
Grant McKee said he was “10 squared”
Donut simple said “Hell Ya”.
———————————————————
>> Gary Olson also said…
>>
>> And I believe their BAC from the toxicology tests prove that.
What little has been published ( below ) from the toxicology tests does nothing of the sort.
It SUGGESTS some things… but not enough of the report has been published to PROVE anything.
Example: It’s obvious by now that the value of those BAC levels TOTALLY depends on the amount of ‘decomposition’ that had already taken place before the blood samples could be drawn. Any medical examiner worth his license would have also given a good indication of that in the reports themselves, so the results could be interpreted against THOSE findings.
We haven’t seen any of that so far ( indication of actual condition of the bodies and state of decomposition when blood samples were taken ).
If that information is NOT in the reports… then we are talking ‘amateur hour’ on the part of the Medical Examiner(s).
>> Gary Olson also said…
>>
>> I think everyone understands this already, but I want to clearly state it
>> in case there is any question in anyone’s mind. I do not hold anyone on
>> the crew responsible for their being called out to the Yarnell Hill Fire with
>> the exception of Eric Marsh. For whatever it is worth, I do not even hold
>> Jesse Steed responsible for that because I believe Marsh had already
>> accepted the assignment without consulting with him and I think it has
>> been made clear to us,or at least me, that Marsh was not the kind of hotshot
>> crew boss who listened to his staff. The crew thought they has been
>> released and were going to be on some well deserved days off.
Yes. We are talking about a RECALL situation here.
The men were all DISMISSED sometime early on Saturday evening ( Robert Caldwell supposedly walked through the door of his house and was home for dinner at 7:30 PM ) and ALL of these men had several hours top begin doing whatever they normally do on the night before a full day off.
Marsh (supposedly) ‘accepted’ the Yarnell assignment WHILE he was having dinner at the Prescott Brewing Company with his wife in the 8:00 PM to 9:00 PM timeframe… but there is no full record of when ALL of the Granite Mountain Hotshots were finally ‘RECALLED’ and fully notified that they now had to report to GM Station 7 at 5:00 AM Sunday morning.
>> Gary Olson said…
>>
>> In the interest of not withholding that which may be
>> exculpatory evidence, here is a counterpoint.
>>
>> “According to Gary Olson, ten of the 19 deceased Granite Mountain
>> Hotshots had ethyl alcohol in their post-mortem blood samples but not
>> in their vitreous humor (VH, eye fluid) samples. Those that had ethyl alcohol
>> in their VH samples had what is considered to be a de minimus
>> post-mortem VH ethyl alcohol level (e.g. likely due to decomposition
>> and not drinking).
Where is this ‘counterpoint’ actually coming from?
Is that you speaking about yourself in the 3rd person, or is this something someone has written elsewhere now being posted here?
Regardless of the origin… whoever is speaking there is CORRECT.
From everything I have read… depending on the state of decompostion of the bodies… any post-mortem VH alcohol percentages less than 0.10g are considered ‘statistically inconclusive’.
It ALL depends on the state of ‘decomposition’, which SHOULD also be mentioned in the reports and is easily measured by other tests.
Example: If the driver of a fatal single-car accident dies, and the body is transported to the ME within just an hour or so and immediately placed in a cool, dry environment, then it is ‘industry standard forensics’ to assume that NO significant decomposition has begun and the BAC levels can be trusted to indicate whether that person was drunk when they died… or not.
However… if a body is found in a closed up garage in Houston in August and has only been deceased for 4 or 5 hours… a HUGE amount of decomposition would have already been taking place and the BAC levels could already be reading in the 0.08g to 0.09g range for that reason alone. It is not an ‘absolute’ that it will happen… but it is now ‘highly likely’.
So it ALL DEPENDS on time, decomposition, and the quality of the blood samples.
More about this later ( still researching ).
As for the rest of what whoever that was ‘speaking’ had to say about GLUCOSE and Vitreous Humor sampling…
…I’m not seeing anything being said that doesn’t fit the same research I’ve been reading.
Everything being said there can be considered ‘accurate’.
Once again… ALL of these ‘findings’ and ‘numbers’ ( at least the minimal amount that’s been published so far ) depends on how long it was before the blood samples were actually taken and the actual state of decomposition at that time.
** TARPS WERE PLACED ON THE BODIES AT THE DEPLOYMENT SITE
Remember… sometime on Sunday night a group of unknown fireman were (illegally) allowed to walk all over the ‘scene’ and place TARPS over ALL of the bodies out there in that STILL HOT environment.
Forget the fact that we now have people trapsing all over the site before any police detective had been allowed to examine it… placing those tarps over those bodies out there in that warm/hot environment was the WORST thing that could have been done and just one more reason why that should have never been allowed to happen in the first place.
That act alone could have hugely ACCELERATED the decomposition process, and have then led to to some of the BAC numbers that have been published below.
Again ( I’m going to start sounding like a broken record on this one ) there are OTHER TESTS that can/should have been done to indicate the exact ‘state of decomposition’ of each of the bodies as the autopsy itself was being performed.
It would be THESE other test results / observations that then MUST be used to put the BAC numbers into ‘context’ and give some indication if they can be attributed to decomposition, or not.
I think your estimates on decomposition are off based on my research.
The body decomposes at different rates and under different conditions.
Covering the bodies after dark with no sun on them would not create more heat, also the night time temperatures would be cooler. Some time in the morning of the First the bodies were loaded and began their travel to Maricopa County So time in the sun was minimal.
Most information I have been able to obtain says the first 24 hours are not very high in decomposition for internal organs.
Unless the body was laying in direct sun for an extended period of time.
And one statement said it took 5 days of high heat in the desert for the BAC to show .08 g%. BAC in one of the tests..
If they were transported and put into a cold Mortuary environment in less than 24 hours or by 5 PM on the first then the Decomposition would have been slowed considerably.
Their are severial ways to test for a true BAC using different organs and location of blood draws including the Bladder.
My information says the bodies were cold at the time of testing. I do not have the times but that should also be on each individual report.
Reply to Bob Powers post on December 7, 2015 at 2:57 pm
>> Bob Powers said…
>>
>> I think your estimates on decomposition are off based on my research.
.>> The body decomposes at different rates and under different conditions.
Absolutely… and I think just this little exchange right now proves that one can find any number of ‘examples’ that swing to/from the extreme edge cases of ‘accelerated’ decomposition ( for a variety of reasons ) and ‘decelerated decomposition’ to ‘arrested decomposition’ ( also for a variety of reasons ).
So it’s really not worth ‘going there’.
The only thing that’s relevant here is the ACTUAL condition of the ACTUAL 19 bodies in question.
Whether the covering of those bodies with those tarps out in that hot environment of the box canyon overnight made any difference in how fast they were going to start decomposing is not very ‘provable’…
…but I will bet you a dollar to a donut it certainly didn’t HELP.
>> Bob Powers also said…
>>
>> If they were transported and put into a cold Mortuary
>> environment in less than 24 hours or by 5 PM on the
>> first then the Decomposition would have been slowed
>> considerably.
Yes. That’s a fact. How much decomposition might have taken place BEFORE then could only then be discovered during the examination(s) themselves… and SHOULD have been DETAILED in the reports… because that base-level context is what can influence all the other test results.
>> Bob Powers also said…
>>
>> Their are severial ways to test for a true BAC using different
>> organs and location of blood draws including the Bladder.
Yes… just as there are several ways and several other standard TESTS that can indicate the actual ‘level of decomposition’ at the start of the examination. Were THOSE tests done?
I mean… we KNOW these bodies weren’t like a standard in-the-city traffic accident where a fatality can end up in ‘cold storage’ at the local ME’s office within an HOUR of expiration.
In a case like that… it is actually ‘industry standard’ to assume no decomposition at all and the BAC levels from just about any sample are also considered to be ‘highly accurate’.
We also know these bodies weren’t decomposing for ‘days’ before they reached cold storage.
It’s somewhere in-between those two examples… and only the ME himself could/should have indicated what the actual state of decomposition was for each and every body be was required to examine.
>> Bob Powers also said…
>>
>> My information says the bodies were cold at the time of testing.
>> I do not have the times but that should also be on each
>> individual report.
I got the impression below that you, yourself, have full copies of the
reports. Is that not the case?
I have got some information but no I do not have the Full reports if I did
I would have posted them. My info is coming in dribbles which I am following up on Gary’s info he released.
We need the full disclosure and signed documents as you always say.
I agree. Trying to make conclusions from no official documents is way out not desirable.
There are a lot of things that should have been answered by the Medical Examiner and as far as I can tell were not. So the documents may not give us much more if additional tests were not followed up on.
I am trying to get as much information from Friends in Law Enforcement and the Computer. So far none of those have changed my original belief but supported it.
From what I understand Fermentation that creates ethyl alcohol starts in the stomach and spreads into the blood, that dose take some time depending on the environment the body is in. In most cases BAC of .03 and above would not be considered as decomposition until after 48 hours. Law enforcement and Prosecutors us the BAC as actual if it was taken in the first 48 hours.
In most cases there is other procedures to determine the difference from Decomposition and ingested Alcohol.
It dose not look like those were preformed at this time.
From what I have been told.
Reply to Bob Powers post on
December 7, 2015 at 3:59 pm
>> Bob Powers said…
>>
>> We need the full disclosure and signed documents
>> as you always say. I agree. Trying to make conclusions
>> from no official documents is way out not desirable.
Agree.
That being said… I don’t mean to downplay the information that IS now available. It means something.
Exactly WHAT is the only remaining question.
>> Bob Powers also said…
>>
>> There are a lot of things that should have been answered
>> by the Medical Examiner and as far as I can tell were not.
>> So the documents may not give us much more if
>> additional tests were not followed up on.
That’s right… but still a lot of ‘unknowns’ there.
Maybe the information that seems to be missing right now to put a ‘context’ onto the toxicology ( As in… the exact amount of decomposition detected for each and every body ) really is there somewhere. Could be back in the ‘autopsy’ report versus any pure ‘toxicology’ report. Have to look at the ACTUAL documents side-by-side to be sure.
>> Bob Powers said…
>>
>> Law enforcement and Prosecutors us the BAC as
>> actual if it was taken in the first 48 hours.
There is also evidence online ‘out there’ to support that… but again… anywhere beyond just ‘a few hours’ and if a case based on that goes to court… the lawyers can start calling the ‘experts’ who will all start saying that you can’t ALWAYS make that assumption.
They will all start pointing back to the actual autopsy / toxicology and start debating about the ACTUAL ‘decomposition state’ of the body at the time the samples were taken.. especially if there was any ‘delay’ at all in getting the expired body into cold storage.
Everyone takes if for granted as they listen to the news and whatnot that one of the things Medical Examiners are supposed to be good at is establishing ‘Time of Death’…
…but no one ever really wonders… “HOW do they do that?”
Well… you and I know how, and some of the gory details are not worth mentioning at this time.
Suffice it to say that once you die… certain ‘processes’ begin and those processes themselves start to leave chemical ‘footprints’.
By measuring these… any good ME can ‘work backwards’ from the current state of decomposition and actually get pretty damn accurate about when these ‘processes’ STARTED.
Hence… fairly accurate ‘Time of Death’.
So did the ME do that for any Granite Mountain crewmember?
Is there even any mention of any ATTEMPT to establish TOD?
If there is… then that means there WAS a pretty accurate measurement made of the ACTUAL state of decomposition… which can then be ‘compared’ to the toxicology results to see how accurate they might be with regards to things like BAC.
We actually know Eric Marsh, the primary decision maker out there that day, died around 4:39 PM along with the others.
We now also know his official BAC from a standard post-mortem blood sample lwas in the 0.03 range.
According to the ‘dissipation’ theory of 0.01 per hour, that means that at 10:30 PM the night before when he probably laid down to sleep at the Granite Mountain Station 7 ( instead of going home that night )… he *COULD* have had a BAC of .21.
A BAC of .21 is ‘pretty drunk’. Depending on your tolerance for alcohol… that would be ‘still standing up but shit-faced’ for most adults.
So if there is enough evidence to prove that the BAC levels showing in the toxicology were NOT the result of any ‘decompositon effects’… then Marsh really *could* have been at .21 at 10:30 the night before and it would still show as 0.03 in his post-mortem BAC.
It’s POSSIBLE. It really is.
But we’d still have to see the FULL results and be sure about the decompositional state when his blood sample was actually taken.
I am not talking about myself in the third person, sometimes I talk about myself using the royal “we”, but not this time.
The person in question who submitted what MAY be exculpatory evidence for our edification wishes to remain anonymous.
Well… that’s fine… but as I said above…
Regardless of the origin ( of those ‘counterpoint’ quotes )… whoever is speaking there is CORRECT.
From everything I have read… depending on the state of decompostion of the bodies… any post-mortem VH alcohol percentages less than 0.10g are considered ‘statistically inconclusive’.
It ALL depends on the state of ‘decomposition’, which SHOULD also be mentioned in the reports and is easily measured by other tests.
To add to the Discussion on BAC There is quite a bit of info on the Computer.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16782292
——interpretating results of ethanol analysis postmortem.
Some other things I have run across state the is quite a bit of differing readings between the VAC and BAC. The VAC is not a 100% accurate in the equivalent to the BAC.
The fact that the ME made a statement to the Fact that he stated MAY BE is not a Cort of law statement. MORE ANNALISSES SHOULD HAVE BEEN DONE TO DETERMIN WHAT THE BAC WAS ATTRIBUTED TO.
The same goes to the other statement THE ME PROVIDED NO ANALYSIS.
When the BAC was showing those higher readings from .09 to .02 g% There should have been further testing to determine the Source. Evidently that was not done nor any coloration between those with no BAC verses those with BAC. That is the responsibility of the ME.
The requirements for a court of law are the conclusions of the Coroner on their tests not the non conclusions or the May Be statement. An industrial accident would need the Factual information on DRUGS and BAC to determine if they were Causative agents to the Accident.
Like every thing else in this investigation no one investigated deep enough to give ACCURATE ANSWERS.
No one wants to know the facts. ———- Nothing happened just move on.
Reply to Bob Powers post on December 7, 2015 at 11:01 am
>> Bob Powers said…
>>
>> To add to the Discussion on BAC There is quite a bit of info on the Computer.
Yes, there is. An AMAZING amount, actually.
We all tend to forget how COMMON this testing really is. It goes on 24 hours a day, 365 days a year, all over this country ( and the world ).
In just about any case where an autopsy is required/requested… these tests are done.
Yes… it can get COMPLICATED… but not all THAT complicated, either.
>> Bob Powers also said…
>>
>> http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16782292
>>
>> ——interpretating results of ethanol analysis postmortem.
>>
>> Some other things I have run across state the is quite a bit of differing
>> readings between the VAC and BAC. The VAC is not a 100% accurate
>> in the equivalent to the BAC.
Yes. I’ve seen the same research papers.
It ALL DEPENDS on the state of DECOMPOSITION.
>> Bob Powers said.
>>
>> The fact that the ME made a statement to the Fact that he stated MAY BE
>> is not a Cort of law statement. MORE ANNALISSES SHOULD HAVE BEEN
>> DONE TO DETERMIN WHAT THE BAC WAS ATTRIBUTED TO.
Yes… such as the ‘actual state of decomposition’ at the start of the examination.
There are OTHER ‘standard’ TESTS for that, as well, and then THOSE results are used as the context for all the other test results.
There SHOULD be some DETAIL about the state of decomposition included in ALL of those autopsy / toxicology reports. If it’s not there… then it’s a ‘botch job’.
>> Bob Powers also said…
>>
>> The same goes to the other statement THE ME PROVIDED NO ANALYSIS.
>> When the BAC was showing those higher readings from .09 to .02 g%
>> There should have been further testing to determine the Source.
>> Evidently that was not done nor any coloration between those with
>> no BAC verses those with BAC. That is the responsibility of the ME.
Also yes. The fact that the ME had 13 ( THIRTEEN ) bodies he was required to examine that DID show SOME BAC levels… and then 6 ( SIX ) more bodies from the same ‘accident’ site and subjected to the same trauma and transport delays that did NOT show any BAC levels whatsoever is something that he should have COMMENTED on… and provided at least his own base-level explanation for those differing results.
Apparently, he didn’t.
>> Bob Powers also said…
>>
>> The requirements for a court of law are the conclusions of the Coroner
>> on their tests not the non conclusions or the May Be statement.
Correct. If the ME knew that the body had been transported to refigeration within an hour of expiration… and he found upwards of 0.09g BAC… then the ‘standard’ in the industry is to call those results ‘statistically reliable’ and indicating a level of ‘intoxication at death’ that exceeds the legal standards in all 50 states.
However… if there is ANY evidence of even light to moderate decomposition present at the time the initial blood samples are taken… the ‘industry standard’ is also to consider any BAC results LESS than 0.10g to be ‘statistically inconclusing’ due to the possible effects of decomposition. Further detailed testing must then be done.
>> Bob Powers also said…
>>
>> An industrial accident would need the Factual information on DRUGS
>> and BAC to determine if they were Causative agents to the Accident.
No question. Standard procedure.
>> Bob Powers also said…
>>
>> Like every thing else in this investigation no one investigated deep
>> enough to give ACCURATE ANSWERS.
>>
>> No one wants to know the facts. ———- Nothing happened just move on.
As far as I know… only small ‘parts’ of the autopsy / toxicokogy reports have been published. There’s not enough there to know the ‘full story’, or even whether there
really is enough there to PROVE anything at all.
But if there are no detailed descriptions and/or other test results specifically designed to show the actual state of decomposition at the time the blood samples were taken… then those BAC results can probably never really be trusted ( in a court of law ) at all.
I said, “3. The loved ones were never going to speak or allow anyone else to speak the truth either. They want the marble white statues, the accolades, and “The Legend of The 19” and as much money as they can get far more than they want the truth to be known. I have given up caring what the families think at all. Not one of them has reached out to me and told how much they appreciate the sacrifice my father made for the security of their country or the life of pain my mother had to endure…without any money or help. So…”
OK…I have to take this one back…and I’m a Dick! Is anybody surprised?
Thank you.
I am not wanting to change who you are yet I’m such a sensitive person and know some of the loved ones and it was harsh n inaccurate…
It is however odd 19 men died and the lack of public participation of all the people you seen in the media who publicly seeped with such intensity yet vanished from the public since. As if they pulled the world in to mourn along with them but don’t want to know truth…
Seeped should be weeped
Actually should be wept
Absolutely this, Joy:
“the lack of public participation of all the people you seen in the media who publicly seeped [sik wept] with such intensity yet vanished from the public since. As if they pulled the world in to mourn along with them but don’t want to know truth…”
Sets my teeth on edge every time I think about it and always has.
Gary you wrote:
“I said, “3. The loved ones were never going to speak or allow anyone else to speak the truth either. They want the marble white statues, the accolades, and “The Legend of The 19” and as much money as they can get far more than they want the truth to be known.”
And then you said you would retract that. I wouldn’t.
I think it’s true, and it’s not a new concept here. We’ve been saying some version of that for months. The only “loved one” who hasn’t caved (yet), apparently, is Grant McKee’s father. Amirite?
So, in that spirit, I’ll repost here what I wrote downstream, before I was seeing (weird page loading?) all the stuff being posted up here.
=================================================
Marti Reed says DECEMBER 7, 2015 AT 8:00 AM
Actually, I like this term that you coined downstream:
“queen of quid pro quo”
ALL things considered.
Completely appropriate.
Dear “Honorable” Queen 0f Quid Pro Quo Karen Fann.
Plus, it looks awesome and sounds awesome.
Just my two sense worth.
Proud to be an “arm-chair quarterback civilian”!!!
Yes, you are right (I think) and those are the ones I am referring to. So….
Oh…and one more thing. I an not clever enough to come up that that title for Fann, but someone I know was, .and I latched onto it because I LOVE it!
Tee-hee!
All artists are thieves.
“A fool creates. A genius steals”.
Origin: Unknown
As an actual artist, I do a bit of both.
Alchemy rules.
Correction…I misread what you said. I don’t know about Grant’s father, I was referring to his mother. And what she had to say tore my heart out, even though it was supportive of me…may God bless her broken heart.
” I was referring to his mother”
And I had her in mind when I wrote what I wrote, even though it’s Grant’s father’s suit that is still “live.”
And, yes, her comments passed on to us, essentially helped me stay here. I was completely moved by what she was saying.
Gary,
I don’t think you need to apologise for anything, As you say “you are YOU” and many thanks for it, you’ve moved this along at a hell of a pace recently, and uncovered some brown and really smelly stuff!!!!
Joy,
I have learned that for people to dislike/despise/hate/consider me an enemy, I don’t even have to have done anything to them, or for me to even know them. You just have to be “different” to them, and the very mention of your name will set their teeth on edge. Long may it continue! Also “You are YOU” and many thanks for it.
All,
I’ve been really busy with life but have been following all this at a distance, and probably about 24 hours behind the curve, since you have all been incredibly prolific in your investigations and writing recently.
This Rabbit Hole we’re/you’re headed down got deep and dark REAL quick. I’m ASTOUNDED at the stuff that has been found and shared, even now! I’m hoping this will snowball, and more will follow quickly, maybe we will see the answers needed to fill in the gaps. As long as the questions keep being asked, it’s amazing what you hae all teased out of this. The “professional” investigations post fire – what a joke compared to you guys.
Buckle up people, we’re in for a bumpy ride, and Gary is driving.
“I’ll tell you what I’m blathering about… I’ve got information man! New shit has come to light!” – The Dude
Yes, and to quote the Dude even further, “This is a very complicated case, Maude. You know, a lotta ins, a lotta outs, a lotta what-have-yous. And, uh, a lotta strands to keep in my head, man. Lotta strands in old Duder’s head. Fortunately, I’m adhering to a pretty strict, uh, drug regimen to keep my mind, you know, uh, limber.”
“The GMIHC Families” are not a monolithic group and it was wrong and insensitive for me to write like they are. I have been told more than once in my life that I am like a bull in a china shop. And sometimes I break things.
You know…I was just sitting here listening to some music and a thought occurred to me that I want to share with you, since you are among my closest friends.
I have been saying, we all have been saying, for years now that what happened to the GMIHC made absolutely no sense. We have all been trying to explain the inexplicable.
That has now changed. Far be it from me to say we know everything, but what happened now makes perfect sense to me. Everyone has done a really good job the last couple of days explaining why the crew left the black. And I feel just a little bit better knowing that and I hope you do as well.
Actually the toxicology report is not THE missing element but a missing factor and Gary when all the missing elements surface it is clear and I have been with true clarity since January 2015 and even much clearer after the 2015 wildland firefighters convention…I due to the sensitivity of it just wait on God’s time…yet you did peel a layer away this week but that was just a layer…
Golly geez whiz and Jiminy Cricket too…here is an idea. Why don’t you just tell us what you know instead of playing at being the Oracle of Delphi?
I hope most of you know this but just in case there are still some day dreamers out there…
1. WTKTT tells you how it is supposed to be.
2. Marti tells you how she thinks it should be.
3. I tell you how it is.
Your government does not work like they told it was supposed to in your civics class in high school. Especially in places like Arizona with people like Karen Fann in charge. So…
Whoever did get the toxicology reports is the real hero of this entire rotten mess. We would all still be in the dark without them. Because I am pretty sure that person had to go through a whole bunch of hoops and a lot more time, trouble and expense than the rest of us were willing to even try and go through.
“Your government does not work like they told it was supposed to in your civics class in high school. Especially in places like Arizona”
I was required to take Civics in High School. I don’t think ANYBODY is required to take Civics any more. And, yes, I agree, I found out how it IS rather than how it was TAUGHT fairly early on after High School. But at least I knew how it was supposed to be. At least I had a framework.
These days nobody even has a CLUE how it’s supposed to be. It’s just …… Whatevers!!
Well, except for those White Supremacists who demand their faux-Christian Supremacist Science-denying faux-Second-Amendment-worshipping fear-mongering Rapture-Awaiting uber-Right-Wingers who DEMAND it all be the way THEY think it’s supposed to be. Of course they didn’t learn that in any damned Civics Class!
Especially in places like Arizona.
Marti,
You posted: “… faux-Christian Supremacist Science-denying faux-Second-Amendment-worshipping fear-mongering Rapture-Awaiting uber-Right-Wingers …”
Would you put that in a bit more plain English for me instead of Reedeese?
Thanks
Ya know those folks who want to turn the US of A into a Christian (only) Nation and who are mighty afeared “Obummer is coming for your guns!!!” and are steadily (and dangerously for some of us) chipping away at womens’ reproductive rights over our own bodies and like to portray our President as a muslim monkey and fly their Confederate flags every chance they get (including some in Arizona who are currently terrorizing a friend of mine) and think “climate change” is a lying “libertad” way to make profits??
Does that help a teensy bit?
I know I shouldn’t be doing political rants here, but writing about Civics made it impossible to not do that.
Cheers!
PS Some of them are even fire-fighters.
Including one who recently retired from the Prescott Fire Department. Ahem.
Marti,
Yes, thanks for clarifying for me. It’s still a free country and the whole “Tolerance” thing goes both ways, e.g. I they have to tolerate them, so they have to tolerate me. It always amazes me how Liberals think and reason, very illogically.
Liberalism has been determined to be a Mental Disorder you know.
http://conservativepapers.com/news/2015/05/15/absolute-proof-liberalism-is-a-mental-disorder/
And yes, there are those that would write about the converse.
One of my favorites is this: Left-wing American shock jock Thom Hartmann – has told his listeners that “climate change deniers should be in prison.” Prison? Really? What happened to the First Amendment.
RTS. I respect you VASTLY too much to get down into the mud here.
It’s clear we are in SERIOUSLY different camps, politically speaking, here. And I don’t want to fight about it with you. I probably should have kept my mouth shut after all.
I am thinking that what we are trying to accomplish together here is too important to waste time, energy, oxygen, and trust battling about conservative vs liberal politics in this space.
To go back to what Gary originally said. The system doesn’t work the way we (at least I and others and maybe even you?) were taught in Civics it is supposed to.
You may think it should operate in a particular direction; I may think it should operate in a different direction.
My uncle is a Phoenix Conservative whose politics were baked into stone when he was growing up in Chicago in the midst of the currupt Democratic Machine (which is, apparently, still running). I still love him dearly, although I disagree with him on a large number of things.
On this blog, I have agree with you over and over and over and over again, and you have taught me a ton of things that I really appreciate your opening my eyes to.
I am still a born and bred Liberal (daughter of a card-carrying NAACP member who was also the top meteorologist of the atmospheric nuclear weapons testing program and also an outspoken climate-change witness for decades) who was a Feminist Environmentalist United Church of Christ Minister for 35 years.
The reason I stay here is because I, as a (Gary-endorsed) dedicated arm-chair quarterback civilian/citizen, am serious about trying to figure out how to end the apparent LMA (land management agency) etc (apparently including NTSB via your account) top-down driven NEGLIGENCE when it comes to the safety of Wildland FireFighters in an age of increasing (for a variety of reasons) risks to their lives.
Peace?
Oh and PS, regarding:
“One of my favorites is this: Left-wing American shock jock Thom Hartmann – has told his listeners that “climate change deniers should be in prison.”
As someone who has listened to Thom Hartmann for a long, long time, I don’t believe he said that for a moment.
Marti,
A “born and bred Liberal (daughter of a card-carrying NAACP member.” Really? There’s a gene for that?
No problem Marti, we’re both professionals in our own realms and professionals can cut past the personal politics and agree to disagree or whatever.
You said “As someone who has listened to Thom Hartmann for a long, long time, I don’t believe he said that for a moment.” Well then, here is Thom Hartmann spewing about placing ‘CLIMATE CHANGE DENIERS’ IN JAIL. One of MANY video clips!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=go33Llz8hFs
At 1:47, he asks the interviewee, “Why should you not be in jail … .I’m asking that as a serious question.”
At 4:45 and beyond he says “I think, frankly, people who do that (support fossil fuels and deny climate change) should be in jail … so why should you not be in jail? … I am calling you a criminal … Why should you not be in jail? … that’s what you should be in jail for, is saying that kind of stuff. … You are killing people … once again, why should you not be prosecuted for racketeering (twice) … whether or not you should be in jail.” ending at 9:07
I don’t take it personal. It was the Communist Party in the 1950’s that came up with the saying “You should never discuss politics or religion.” But that gosh darn, pesky First Amendment keeps getting in the way.
I too have learned a lot from you and enjoy your posts and will continue to do so. Thanks.
Well whadda ya know.
One of the ‘discoveries’ here on this forum is that people at opposite ends of the political spectrum really CAN work together towards a goal.
All they have to do is realize it’s important to do so.
How refreshing.
“One of the ‘discoveries’ here on this forum is that people at opposite ends of the political spectrum really CAN work together towards a goal.”
I am trying. But, all things considered, I’m not guaranteeing I will be able to continue.
#LoveTrumpsHate — Hillary Clinton, yesterday.
Flame me.
I agree with Thom.
He’s not saying that regular people should be jailed for denying human-caused climate change, (as the right-wingers I was describing want women and their doctors to be jailed (or worse) for exercising their constitutional right to abortion, or their Trump-led islamophobic campaign against people likr Minnesota’s Representative Keith Ellison.
He’s paralleling the corporate-funded (most egregiously by Exxon) public-relations campaigning to stop climate-change science with what happened regarding RICO and tobacco companies. He and Sheldon Whitehouse are articulating that parallel. And I agree with that.
That doesn’t mean you, personally, should be jailed. It means RICO should apply to what certain companies are doing. Based on how it was applied, successfully, to tobacco companies.
I guess you, a wildland firefghter, don’t believe we should be stopping practices that are contributing to the greenhouse effect. And that you don’t believe that increasingly loading the atmosphere with carbon dioxide contributes to the climate changes (with their intensified weather effects).
As the daughter of a climate scientist, I respectfully disagree.
And………..
I do believe this is not the appropriate place to argue these things.
This whole thing began with a comment by Gary regarding Civics. And how real-world reality doesn’t correspond to how Civics are/were taught.
If we want the machine to work in our favor regarding this whole Yarnell thing, that, to me, means we should want it to work without bias and corruption.
What should be good for the goose should be good for the gander.
To me, what you have said, says to me you want to have the cake and eat it too.
Namaste.
And also, this:
“Whoever did get the toxicology reports is the real hero of this entire rotten mess. We would all still be in the dark without them. Because I am pretty sure that person had to go through a whole bunch of hoops and a lot more time, trouble and expense than the rest of us were willing to even try and go through.”
If there is any way you can tunnel back to that person and thank him/her, please add my name to the list of those saying, THANK YOU!!
He or she is reading this blog…so he or she knows.
Reply to Gary Olson post on December 6, 2015 at 10:52 pm
>> Gary Olson said…
>>
>>
>> 1. WTKTT tells you how it is supposed to be.
Yep. ONE of the hats I wear. Glad to do it.
19 taxpayer-paid civil servants went to work in a totally taxpayer
funded workplace on June 30, 2013.
All day long… they had the absolute BEST view of the ‘fire’ they were working.
Better than ANYONE ELSE working there that day.
The ONLY way they could have achieved a BETTER view of the fire would have been to actually been up in 19 airplanes themselves and ‘looking down’ at the situation.
They were SUPPOSED to go home to their families.
They didn’t. They all died horribly.
Please discuss.
You are correct. One hundred percent correct.
Joy A. Collura says
DECEMBER 6, 2015 AT 12:15 PM
in what Gary said—“my screwin’ with that fuckin’ BITCH (gender specific) Karen Fann”
my reply- I have heard from people who know her from the 70’s and before her Chino Valley days and current and you are being pretty harsh Gary— even with the red flags I have witnessed I would not place her in such category as such above— yet LOOKING INTO things from a FBI perspective may help piece all this into perspective to properly assess the YHF but name calling
??????????????
With all due respect Joy…Karen Fann THREATENED ME and told me to no longer send her emails to an email box that is part of her job as a representative of the people. So…I afraid my name calling stands…
I think Karen Fann is a FUCKIN’ BITCH and I think Chief Dan Fraijo is MY FUCKIN” BITCH! And if anybody wants me…I am in Olympia WA…bring your A game motherfuckers. I have been waiting for you.
Oh…and one more thing. Do you think I could have ever stepped forward from the back of the bus to run a hotshot crew at age 23 that was made up in part guy’s who were 10 years older than me and some of them Vietnam combat vets if I didn’t have confidence in myself to handle whatever comes up in my life? However misplaced that confidence might be.
In fact, you have reminded me of just how much I disliked Karen Fann’s email and so I am going to send her one every day until a judge orders me to stop.
I don’t believe a judge will ever order me to stop sending emails to a representative of the people’s official email even though I have a potty mouth. Here is the email I am going to sent to that Fxxxxx’ Bxxxx Karen Fann.
Now…the Arizona Department of Public Safety may come looking for me if I make a terrorist threat to harm said representative of the people, but I am not going to do that. I am just going to demand an apology from her and then I will stop emailing here every day.
Dear Fxxxxx’ Bxxxx..you owe me an apology for threatening me and telling me to stop sending legitimate emails concerning the people’s business to a duly elected representative of the people @ an email address they pay for that purpose.
After I have received your apology, I will stop sending you emails to remind you that you are not greater than the principles our founding used to build our great nation upon. Amen.
The First Amendment to the United States Constitution;
“Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.”
gary olson
Today at 2:47 PM
To
Karen Fann
Message body
Dear Fxxxxx’ Bxxxx…you owe me an apology for threatening me and telling me to stop sending legitimate emails concerning the people’s business to a duly elected representative of the people @ an email address they pay for that purpose.
After I have received your apology, I will stop sending you emails to remind you that you are not greater than the principles our founding used to build our great nation upon. Amen.
The First Amendment to the United States Constitution;
“Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.”
your mouth is worse than some sailors mouth and truckers—
I understand the freedom of speech and I get you are agitated by her reply yet remember she has been on the forefront to help the loved ones through a very horrific time and even though time has passed it is not easy and so maybe she stands FIRM in that what you said is not her belief or perspective in this and maybe she is not trying to engage in any further discussions on the topic— it is very sensitive— and personal even though Sonny feels these were public employees— they are human just like one of us and deserve or have some right in this modern world to privacy I would think…Maybe I am wrong. I do belief the report will help future firefighters. I do believe it is such a sensitive topic it should be discussed with that in mind…so why the F this and that…relax…
this coming from the lady who faced court because Karen Fann and Marsh’s wife orchestrated it?
Joy has only wanted to put out the truth and now that these new documents came out we see that Eric was under the influence and as a recovering alcoholic how is that possible?
The results from the toxicology reports should humble the those two leaders families if they were bragging on them because those leaders were responsible for the lives of the 17 other men and even Donut.
What is sad is the very place they went down I knew it was a no-no and I am not even a firefighter. Fortunately I went back for Joy or should could of been killed as well.
As far as the cussing, in America we have the freedom of speech. If you don’t like my bad language than walk away from me.
It’s a frustrating thing for all of us who want t know the truth that despite shredding of documents (FELONY) and despite all the redactions and omissions and never looking into cell records or further photos, a fire dept that would not respond, and so much more that this site has pointed out including the FBI has not run to investigate this obvious coverup into the 19 deaths of our wildland firefighters.
You can see they were there in a heartbeat when 14 of our citizens were killed by terrorists yet they allow this white wash to continue on without getting to the facts and they never will unless they do interview. How much more important is it to investigate 19 deaths plus the many deaths since the fire (retardant drop NH3)
Are we going to let this carnage continue and hide the facts from future firemen?
WHY in the HELL isn’t that area a training ground with a small memorial that points out all the errors that you can make as a wildlland firefighter (they broke every rule in the book) and would be alibe today if they had followed simple basic rules.
How is it an old miner logger cowboy had better sense than to go down in that basin than 19 elite educated firefighters?
How is it they would not listen Rick MacKenzie – a life ong resident of this area- and cowboy hunter who well knew the terrain t stay out of that thick manzinita if that fire got down in it
I guess I will sit out on this topic.
I am understanding to alot just why is Sonny replying at all to me—
I am right here making sure you recover well—talk to me not the publc and I can tell you Fann had nothing to do with my case and it was just to determine the meeting Fann attended since there was two memorials. I learned that much in 2015,,,and enough for me…have to stop peaking during this public discussions—good to see a mising element ot but not in the manner I saw it but I guess I cannot imagine any other way—yet I did think a loved one would have been the one to speak not Gary—
I don’t have much to add to what Sonny said, except a couple of things.
1. I have repeatedly said that I have regressed to my happy place in my golden years. And that is to the back of the hotshot bus in my mind. I am channeling my olde hotshot self and I have since the beginning of this incident. If I wasn’t, I never would have contacted JD in the first place to help give him the inside story that has made this thread possible. I am who I am. There are many people who know everything I know, but they have always hid in the shadows because they are too afraid of what other people will think of them and how they will be judged so they hide themselves AND their knowledge. A few courageous ones have stepped forward…may God bless them.
2. My life has been filled with people who have loved me and have always said wonderful things about me. But all of them with the exception of my dear wife have always added, “We would love you more if only you would….” To which I have always replied, you have to accept the bad side of me if you continue to benefit from the good side of me. If you don’t want anything to do with me, neither the good nor the bad…that’s OK with me, but don’t expect to benefit from my attributes if that is the way you feel.
3. The loved ones were never going to speak or allow anyone else to speak the truth either. They want the marble white statues, the accolades, and “The Legend of The 19” and as much money as they can get far more than they want the truth to be known. I have given up caring what the families think at all. Not one of them has reached out to me and told how much they appreciate the sacrifice my father made for the security of their country or the life of pain my mother had to endure…without any money or help. So…
4. I do not have the toxicology reports and nor have I ever seen them. I deeply regret that I stole this scoop from the person that it rightfully belonged too. But now that I have, it is about time…FUCKIN’ A! Let’s get it on!
5. You people created the person that I became. I spent my adult lifetime risking everything I had going places in your name that you couldn’t …or wouldn’t go, to help solve your problems for you. How do you expect me to act now?
Gary,
Yes indeed, you are definitely the product of our ‘Tax Dollars At Work.’ OMG, what a sobering thought!?
And you did what you felt was the right thing to do with the toxicology information you had …. it needed to be brought out into the open.
At this point, two famous quotes come to mind:
“The search for truth implies a duty. One must not conceal any part of what one has recognized to be true.” Albert Einstein
“You have enemies? Good. That means you’ve stood for something in your life.” Winston Churchill
Well…we can always look at the bright side. I always tried to do the right thing by the people who were paying my salary…and I still am.
There is no need for anyone to ever thank me for anything. I owe all of you. Thank you for making me who I am. Please consider anything I do a small return on your investment.
If you think Karen Fann is not or has not been behind the bad things that have happened to you, you really are clueless. Karen Fann is in very deep with Amanda Marsh and her crowd, you are their enemy.
It just seems off the charts to imagine me as anyone’s enemy—
I can see someone not comprehending me or thinks I speak in riddles or circles or do things with passion or if overly tired and spent with frustration emotions but enemy—
??????????????????????????????????????????????
I can see someone thinking when I am al dolled up and glam and sitting next to A list celebs and government folks in the back of the limo heading to hot spot & think she has to be someone if she hangs out with them when genuinely I am no one except with confidence one of the top natural culinary/ice artist…I can see how someone thinks I am homeless when I hiked in June 2008 from Congress Arizona to Filibertos in Wickenberg andback to Congress the desert way to have my water fall off the bluff and I had to make choice in over 100 degree weather—take more time to get the water or keep going and head towards Highway 89 to than be unconscious on highway 89 to have elderly couple pass me and shop and see me again on way back and stop and put me in vehicle thinking I was homeless to bring me to er…to find out the real details floored them after I awoke…hanging out with Sonny I rarely wear makeup anymore or get dolled up but if I do I rid of the chemicals and use charcoal and beet powder and chapstick—as you seen in all the photos…
I do not keep up with modern society and focus all my energy on intake and I ain’t intaking I am someone’ s enemy—nonsense.
I think what happen was I was spent and frustrated by much stalking and it was growing old…like who am I? Yet I have documented the aftrmath and yes I have been stalked but Tex too. That was a red flag but Charley Moseley said it was natural for eyewitness to be stalked and even at times magically disappear but my family and friends love my energy too much and I have on record to be autopsied and I have perimeter cameras in every part I live life—
and as well as have just recently increased it due to the stalking. Marti saw the one man and it could of been Jim Karel’s double—
If anyone who reads this feels I am your enemy— I am not.
Do not waste your energy —
I am here to try and find solutions not have barriers—
let’s talk through it—
480-280-5813
I do not have to:win” anyone to any side…from the get go I always felt THIS SHOULD OF NEVER HAPPENED to these men…
I like coming to IM and I like the individualism here and I am not trying to TELL Gary how to BE but I am making him aware the people who peak on here I would hate for them to read what I read because she has to spend another Holiday without her sweetheart of amost 70 years and her home loss and all of it and to think these men were what I have been reading without the proper resources of actual loved ones confirming it just seemed hard to swallow and read…
If Fann or anyone views me such way—call me—let’s create togetherness not what I see here and rip on someone because maybe just maybe she was with a PLATE FULL when you wrote her and she felt from her seat a different perception and end of topic— its a waysensitive topic Gary than you say you do or don’t have report yet you said you attached it in her email so who knows—
If you have information I don’t—
Sonny would say YEAH naiveness-
What’s the enmity all about?
I think my affiliation to this site has been noted to me by Joanna Dodder to stay away from here but ts my only freedom of speech to help the traumas I feel from the YHF even if I mean nothing to some I do need an outlet to share and it is a place to share my new information as it comes-
so again anyone out there that views me as their enemy-
call me…
or change your perception because to me I feel I have no enemies just people who choose to not be around me because I do not fit their way of thinking, Gary.
I hope I answered you but maybe you will say…riddles again Joy.
I’m sorry the world is not the place you think it is, or should be, or wish it was, but it is not.
Dulled senses? Impaired thought? Clouded Judgment? No, I am not talking about the Granite Mountain HS crew.
I am talking about State Representative Karen Fann and her stunning, vitriol-laced email to Gary. It’s days later and I am STILL shocked by it. This was a public servant speaking to a member of the public. In the course of her job.
DULLED SENSES must be the explanation for why she entirely forgot that it is the public who pays her salary, it is the public whom she is ‘supposed’ to be working for AND listening to whenever they contact her. Responding by attempting to ‘shoot the messenger’ like she did, in such an openly documented fashion during the performance of that job … it is a clear indication of some IMPAIRED THOUGHT. And, her appalling, gratuitous threat and subsequent ultimatum contained in that email indicates some seriously CLOUDED JUDGMENT.
Karen Fann’s job is as ‘representative of the people’. And that, too, is NOT a job with the fucking “Military” or the “Mafia” or the “Masons.”
Judging from that email she wrote to Gary, I seriously question whether she is Fit for Duty.
Thank you Mr. J. Stout…you read it exactly like she intended it to read. What the fuck is wrong with Joy I don’t understand?
Actually, I like this term that you coined downstream:
“queen of quid pro quo”
ALL things considered.
Completely appropriate.
Dear “Honorable” Queen 0f Quid Pro Quo Karen Fann.
Plus, it looks awesome and sounds awesome.
Just my two sense worth.
Proud to be an “arm-chair quarterback civilian”!!!
Something’s wrong with this page. It’s not updating right.
I refreshed it three times this morning, and only after I posted this comment did I see all the comments already here from this morning. Weird.
Having just read what I read upstream I stand by my above comment even more.
Anybody can come up with “fucking bitch.” It takes true class to come up with “Queen of Quid Pro Quo.”
I think maybe even Joy would be OK with that. It really is true. But less pooh-flinging. Especially at this time of year.
And, so to be true to my form as saying what I think it should be, I’ll just say, you rock, Gary!!
Thanks for saying, relentlessly, how it IS! Whether we, or anybody else, likes it or not.
And, also, I’ll throw in an additional thank you to RTS for your comments downstream about the helicopter crash on the Iron Complex Fire. Eye-opening.
Namaste, everybody!
And PS.
I think, given the email she sent you, Gary, I wouldn’t let her off the hook an inch.
There is absolutely no justification for what she said to you and how she said it.
Marti,
Thanks for the thanks on the Iron Complex debacle. You’re most welcome
wwtktt-
you are correct about their conditions and these new toxicology reports verify what I saw up close June 30, 2013. I thought they looked spent but now realize some were hungover and spent from the hot arduos climb they had made up to the point where they passed us about 200 yards below the fire edge. The reason they did not continue their connection line was because they had run into a boulderous field and just beyond that was dense growth of manzinita covering the south side of that canyon that led up to the old mine. Likely, that fire had already advanced down the mountain and could not continue such line to connect. In fact, just beyond the old grader is a small mountain that we watched fire over take in less than 14 minutes from 12:15 to 12:30. Since that fire on that range is probably a mile further than where we observed the original fire that morning at about 9:30am you can bet it had already advanced down below where they meant to connect to the road up to the old mines. We were just not in position to see it but the people’s hero Donut would know these facts but never made it to SAIR or public.
I meant to add was Donut too hungover to recall and how good would his perceptions be even so-
I got an idea that what he was seeing in his mind was a cold bottle of beer on a hot day.
‘IT’S OLD, IT’S HILLBILLY’ McDonough was looking for a place to DEPLOY his fire shelter in a DEPLOYMENTS ZONE rather than get to a true Safety Zone, according to two media interviews, if I remember correctly.
WTKTT pointed out from the Deployment site News Conference: “Even while standing exactly where these men died… he [PFD Wildland Battalion Chief Willis]
enthusiastically defended the ‘site’ that Eric Marsh and Jesse Steed chose to ‘deploy’. He called it “the BEST PLACE IN THIS BOWL” for a deployment….
Our WFF fire shelter training specifically states to AVOID CHIMNEYS, CHUTES, AND BOWLS …. In the ‘Selecting Your Deployment Site’ section, in Figure 3— it warns us ‘Keep away from narrow draws, chutes, and chimneys. They tend to funnel smoke, flames, and hot gases that can damage your shelter.” REALLY? DAMAGE YOUR SHELTER? WTF!? How about it will get you killed!
I contend that this was just more PFD municipal, structure, wildland fire influence here. The Attack of the Blue Shirts.
Thanks for being back, Sonny!!!!!!!!!!!
Reply to sonny post on December 6, 2015 at 9:45 am
>> sonny said…
>>
>> This toxicology information belongs to the public and should have been
>> revealed from the beginning. These are public employees. What killed
>> them should be public information. This information will help change the
>> way people are allowed to endanger others.
Agree.
Looking at ALL the available evidence ( and testimony ) to try and determine the COMPLETE STORY is just one of those things where people will always fall into one of the following two categories…
To those who understand why it needs to be done, no explanation is necessary.
To those who do not… no explanation is possible.
And it’s really not the responsibility of those who fall into the first category to beat their heads against the wall trying to EXPLAIN it to the ‘other category’.
Either you ‘get it’ ( the importance of knowing )… or you don’t.
>> sonny also said…
>>
>> Now, about the nyquil. A teaspoon or tablespoon of nyquil will have no
>> more change in your alcohol level than say a tablespoon of brandy. Now,
>> however if you are drinking a bottle of it than expect some change.
Regarding Nyquil / Dayquil… yes… there is *some* (small) amount of alcohol content.
Says so on the bottle. There IS an ‘alcohol free’ version of ‘DayQuil… but you have to
be sure and buy that version of it if you want no alcohol content at all.
Joy Collura also said…
———————————————————
nyquil comes to play for one of the loved ones…and certain regular over the counter stuff will show up as alcohol level increased so PLEASE I encourage the ones I know KNOW—speak up
———————————————————
There did seem to be a number of ‘colds’ going around in the GM Crew that last week of June. Brendan McDonough was supposedly ‘out with a cold’ for the two days prior to Yarnell and there is evidence that other GM crew were ‘fighting a cold’ as well.
When Roxanne Warneke ( William ‘Billy’ Warneke’s widow ) did her extensive 2-part interview with AZCENTRAL… she said that Billy had, in fact, been ‘fighting a cold’ and when the contents of his smaller pack that he had left in the Crew Carrier were returned to her, there was a bottle of DayQuil in it…
AZCENTRAL
Article Title: Yarnell Hill Fire: Strength of love’s memory (Part 2)
A two-part interview with Roxanne Warneke
Published: Tuesday, December 31, 2013 9:56 PM – by Karina Bland
http://archive.azcentral.com/news/arizona/articles/20131231yarnell-fire-warneke-baby-part2.html
From the article…
———————————————————
In the days just after the fire, Roxanne got back the things Billy had left in the hotshots’ crew buggy, which was out of the path of the fire, including his cellphone.
When she turned it on, it buzzed again and again with text messages and voice mails from friends and family who had tried to reach him when they first heard news of the fire.
She also got back a few packs of Top Ramen. (Billy hated MREs.) A change of clothes. Dayquil. (He’d been fighting a cold.) His camera.
There were no pictures of him on his camera, only ones he had taken. She wishes he had taken more pictures of himself.
Roxanne also visited the deployment site.
She was looking for Billy’s wedding band — 10 karat, plain gold, size 9½. She didn’t really think it was out here; she hoped it wasn’t, anyway.
He usually took it off when he worked. Even when he was at home, whether cleaning or doing yard work, he always took off his ring and set it on the windowsill in the kitchen.
Roxanne thinks Billy would have put his wedding band next to the military challenge coin he always carried in his wallet. One side of the coin was engraved with “1st Marine Division U.S. Marine Corps,” the other “2nd Battalion, 4th Marines, Second to None, The Magnificent Bastards.”
She was counting on him to have put his wallet in his backpack, like usual. Maybe it was among the personal items belonging to the hotshots that were still being held at the Yavapai County Sheriff’s Office?
It was not. ‘Billy’ Warneke’s wedding band remains missing to this day.
———————————————————————
** THE AMOUNT OF WORK DONE
One of the biggest indicators of how tired and/or physically ‘under-par’ this crew was has actually always been the amount of actual work ( or lack thereof ) they were able to get done while they were out on that ridge.
This hasn’t been discussed much… but the truth is that for the amount of time they were out there ‘working’… they never accomplished much at all.
The SAIR actually included a little ‘squiggly line’ on one of their maps that was out near the anchor point and they labelled it ‘hand line completed’.
The length of it matches what Captain Trueheart Brown said in his own typed Unit Log when he was describing what he saw when he and Brian Frisby had that face-to-face with Eric Marsh and Jesse Steed from 11:55 AM to 12:25 AM.
That was the point where, even at NOON, Granite Mountain needed to be resupplied with water and Brown says he and Frisby gave them ALL of the water and Gatorade they had in the Polaris Ranger before taking the ( exhausted ) Brendan McDonough down to that lookout mound.
Brown said they had only completed about 100 yards line by NOON, after having been working that site for more than 3 hours.
Exact quote from Captain Brown’s Unit log entry is…
“I notice that they have about 100 yard of line secured”.
Well… that is about the length of the same ‘squiggly line’ that eventually appeared in the SAIR document with the label ‘completed hand line’.
That has always meant that this ‘100 yards of line’ was about all they were able to accomplish the entire time they were ‘working’ out there ( 9:00 AM to ‘tools up’ at 3:30 PM minus 1/2 hour lunch would be 6 hours of ‘tools down’ ).
It also means that if Brown saw 100 yards of line at NOON and the final SAIR report showing ‘completed hand line’ post-incident wasn’t showing any more than that… then they really accomplished almost nothing following that NOON face-to-face and the time Brendan was ‘off-loaded’ to the lookout mound.
Their ASSIGNMENT was to connet line FROM the ‘anchor point’ down to some point where the dozer had improved that east-west two track out to ( and beyond ) the ‘old-grader’.
The dozer ( in the morning ) had pushed in TWO directions from the ‘old-grader’.
Northwest from the old-grader on that existing ‘jeep-trail’.
They went as far as the point where there were some ‘Explosives’ signs.
The SAIR mentions these ‘signs’ but never said exactly WHERE they were.
Thanks to Sonny… we know that.
Sonny made a special trip out there to confirm the location, which is right there where that Jeep Trail starts to enter that ‘draw’ and head up the slope.
The dozer then went back to the old-grader and then ‘improved’ that two-track which led away from the grader to the SOUTH. This is actually the part of the two-track that Granite Mountain used for their hike up to the anchor point.
The dozer improved THAT two-track ( which runs paralell to the ridge in a north-to-south layout ) up to the point where it turns to the west and starts to head up the slope to the ridge itself.
So there were TWO ‘connection points’ that Granite Mountain could have been using to try to ‘connect’ to from up where they were… and both of them weren’t that far downslope from where they were working.
But they never even got close to either of those ‘connection points’ with improved dozer line.
At the time Frisby was evacuating his own Crew…. he checked with Steed about their progress and Steed said they would need another hour to even get close to ‘connecting up’ with any dozer line out there.
They didn’t have an hour. The fire had already turned and was heading south, and people were already evacuating the Shrine area.
My whole point here is that the entire crew of 18 men ( Marsh was off by himself doing who-knows-what all day, and Brendan had been sent down to the lookout mound at 12:25 PM ) seemed ‘burned out’ by NOON that day and they never really got much actual WORK done at all for the entire afternoon.
That, itself, is ( and has always been ) an indication of what their ‘physical condition’ might have really been that Sunday.
WTKTT,
Thanks for the reminder on the morning’s tactics, strategy, activities, and accomplishments.
Having been to the GMHS Safety Zone and Deployment Zone twice, I only saw evidence of maybe 200 yards of chainsaw and handline, AT THE VERY MOST, from their S/Z to the mid-slope road.
I think they were toasted… even BEFORE they got there.
The 104 degree heat did nothing but make them ‘black around the edges’.
There is no evidence that Marsh even CONSULTED with his assistant ( Steed ) before accepting that assignment WHILE he was sitting there in the Prescott Brewing Company having dinner with his wife.
The evidence says he just called Steed and INFORMED him that tomorrow ( Sunday ) was no longer a day off… and Steed now had to initiate a RECALL of men who had already been DISMISSED with the assumption they were to be OFF the following day ( their normal day off )… and had already had hours to start doing what they normally do when they THINK tomorrow is a ‘day off’.
I think that just ‘lit the fuse’ on what would become a historic tragedy.
They shouldn’t have even been there.
not only they shouldn’t have been there but also THIS SHOULD OF NEVER HAPPENED…
please MISSING ELEMENTS keep opening up and keep sharing…but prefer it here for the world to see—
Since it’s getting (and going to get) kinda deep on the toxicology issue, posting a link for the process. Hopefully, this helps. I’m sure there are many others.
http://forensicscienceeducation.org/wp-content/uploads/2014/01/Death-Investigation-Toxicology-Manual.pdf
The GMHS toxicology reports indicated that the fluids and blood were usually “vitreous (eye), ilIliac (femoral artery), and urine.”
The manual above states: “Vitreous is a particularly useful sample for testing for alcohol when there is any …” There were several GMHS that showed 0.01 g% in this vitreous category.
The vitreous and illiac blood specimens differed with vitreous being fairly minor, generally only 0.01 g%. The ethyl alcohol showed most in the illiac blood specimens.
In a few, the Medical Examiner noted “The ethyl alcohol detected in cardiac blood and vitreous was most likely due to decompositional changes.”
The urine samples were to detect drugs.
The illiac blood revealed the ranges of Carboxyhemoglobin (COHb), a stable complex of carbon monoxide that forms in red blood cells when carbon monoxide is inhaled. These varied considerably.
And lastly, the brain and lung samples revealed the methyl-ethyl-bad-stuff (Benzene, Toluene, and Xylene), present in varying elements and areas in ALL the GMHS reports.
Please be discreet in your discussions on this very important, yet sensitive issue.
And one more thing.
The moron McDonough was NOT tested for drugs or alcohol, a major error on the part on the SAIT.
But not quite as much of an error as them NOT looking into these 19 GMHS results. It’s more likely that they did so intentionally, on purpose, because the results didn’t fit with their “NO INDICATION OF NEGLIGENCE, RECKLESS ACTIONS, OR VIOLATIONS OF POLICY OR PROTOCOL” conclusion.
It’s NOT possible to everything right, and kill 19 men. Not f**king possible!
Very well said.
A couple of other points I learned was the temperature the body is in adds or lowers the decomposition.
Laying out in the sun or in a high temperature environment will increase decomposition.
Moved to a colder environment will slow decomposition.
Once the bodies were moved to the Coroners office they would have been put in a cooler environment. Normally any transport to another facility would also be in a cold type vehicle.
One reference I read stated a body laying in the sun for 5 days produced .08g% of alcohol.
That’s way more time than the crew was in that kind of environment.
I do not know what was done here just my understanding.
So the question here which was not available to me was the ME statement on the BAC.
No Conclusion was made. Or I have not seen it.
The only conclusion I saw was that the ethyl alcohol MY BE from decomposition which leaves a very large difference from IT WAS. More testing should have been able to conclude
the reason for the BAC levels. The different range of those levels needed to be fully explained.
The only thing I could not fined was when the bodies arrived in Prescott. on July 1st.
They had 12 hours that night plus what ever time that morning it took to load and move to Prescott.
Dose any one know the time the procession went thru Prescott to the Corner’s office?
I don’t think the bodies ever went to Prescott.
I’m pretty sure they went straight to Maricopa.
Each GHMS report had:
‘REPORTED CIRCUMSTANCES OF DEATH
On July 1, 2013, Yavapai County officials requested assistance from the Maricopa County Office of the Medical Examiner with the medicolegal death investigations of 19 firefighters who died in the Yarnell Hill wildfire on June 30, 2013. Under the Maricopa County Manager’s authority and direction, the Maricopa County Office of the Medical Examiner examined the firefighters’ for the purpose of forensic identification and postmortem evaluation. The Maricopa County Office of the Medical Examiner also agreed to provide consultative services to investigating authorities and the Yavapai County Medical Examiner. The Yavapai County Medical Examiner agree it will certify the firefighters’ death certificates. …”
Procedures occurred on July 2, 2013.
Interestingly, it is documented that Marsh had a “CELL PHONE, mirror,and compass in the shirt pocket.”
And the term “MEDICOLEGAL is defined as: “pertaining to medicine and law, or to forensic medicine” in most dictionaries.
But you already knew that …
So if they were transported on the first they should have started testing the first thing in the morning or sooner of the second. Should have a time and date on the individual forms of the blood draws and other ALL the testing for each individual. all we have is they were tested on the Second.
So some where between 39 and 48 hours after death.
some where between 24 to 30 hours they could have been in Maricopa
Morgue and in a refrigerated room.
The first 24 hours would not show much fermentation occurring to produce alcohol .
To answer the question the liver should have been sampled.
that would have given a good conclusion about the alcohol.
The statement on the Toxicology report says——
of ten hotshots who had ethyl alcohol in there Blood but not in their vitreous samples.
THE ME ( MEDICAL EXAMINER ) PROVIDED NO ANALYSIS OF THE PRESENCE OF ETHYL ALCOHOL IN THE BLOOD.
THOUGH THEY RANGED FROM .09g% TO .01g%
This still leaves some questions on what the readings indicate.
If 6 Hot Shots showed no Alcohol in their system the it puts some validity
of alcohol consumption back on the other 13.
Vehicle accidents were the driver died will state there was alcohol involved when it is even under the .08g%.
I have seen autopsies 48 hours later that the TOTAL BAC is used for a DUI including burned victims. With no deduction for decomposition.
It is confusing to the general public and it is hard to fully find where the ME is going or asked to go with a full autopsy.
Reply to Bob Powers post on December 5, 2015 at 9:02 am
>> Bob Powers said…
>>
>> To the State and Attorney General.
>>
>> Release the Coroners report and all the Toxicology Reports and prove Gary wrong.
>>
>> Canceling evidence will not last long. The Public has a right to know……
Yes… and despite her recent efforts, State representative Karen Fann ( Republican – Prescott ), apparently acting on behalf of some subset of GM family members ( including, perhaps, one who may have been an EMPLOYEE of hers ) did NOT succeed in reversing the existing ‘Arizona Open Records’ law(s).
** THE SHORT STORY
Despite her efforts… Arizona state Representative Karen Fann ( Republican – Prescott ) did NOT succeed with her recent HB2225 legislation in overriding the fundamental tenets of Arizona Law Title 39 – Chapter 1 – PUBLIC RECORDS ( also known as the ‘Arizona Open Records LAW’ ).
That fundamental Arizona law STILL says ( verbatim )…
“ANY PERSON may request to examine or be furnished copies, printouts or photographs of any public record during regular office hours or may request that the custodian mail a copy of any public record not otherwise available on the public body’s website to the requesting person.”
But what she WAS able to to with her HB2225 legislation is put a whole new layer of legal red-tape around the process of obtaining (specifically) ‘autopsy photographs or videos’ that now directly involves an Arizona SUPERIOR COURT Judge ( and not a lower court one ).
But that’s it. That’s ALL she accomplished.
She even failed to include things that can NOT be construed as ‘autopsy photos and videos’ such as the photos and videos that are known to have been taken of the Yarnell deployment area by a YCSO police officer from Helicopter Ranger 58, just before dark on June 30, 2013.
Those photos and videos ( and, indeed, whatever photos were taken by YCSO detectives ) have NOTHING to do with ‘autopsies’ or with the ‘Medical Examiner’s Office’. Those photos were part of THEIR standard investigative process and are considered to be ‘public’ items that are NOT part of any official ‘autopsy’ examination.
But see below. THOSE PHOTOS / VIDEOS were NEVER actually what news outlets like AZCENTRAL were ever even asking for. They had already learned that BOTH the Medical Examiner’s Office AND the Yavapai County Sheriff’s Office now each had their OWN copies of the ‘autopsy/toxicology reports’ for Yarnell… and they were making a standard ( legitimate ) request to examine those documents, as allowed by the existing ‘Arizona Open Records’ law(s).
As far as autopsy and/or toxicology WRITTEN REPORTS goes… nothing has changed and ( as Arizona Law Title 39, Chapter 1 says )… ANYONE can still walk into a place where those reports are known to exist during regular business hours ( such as a wholly-taxpayer supported Medical Examiner’s Office and/or a wholly-taxpayer supported Yavapai County Sheriff’s Office ) and ask to ‘inspect those PUBLIC records’.
And ANYONE still means ( last time I checked )… any citizen, any news reporter, any lawyer, any family member, any fireman, any shoemaker, any candle-stick maker, yada, yada, yada.
The PURPOSE of the her ‘legislation’ was simply an attempt to specifically make sure the MEDIA could NOT (easily) get ahold of any of the known photographs that were taken as part of the standard PUBLIC investigation of the Yarnell Hill Incident… because THAT is what a certain subset of GM family members was ‘freaking out’ about.
She was acting on BEHALF of a limited set of ‘family members’… some of whom *may* have actually had a ‘business’ relationship with her outside of her responsibilities as an Arizona State Legislature ( as in… one of them seems to have been her ‘farrier’ and the one taking care of her horses ).
So the ‘quid pro quo’ aspect is still something that needs to be looked into with regards to this legislation she authored and pushed through to Arizona LAW.
For any duly-elected lawmaker… sponsoring legislation at either the behest of or because of the influence of any ‘business’ relationships outside of one’s normal course of duties as a lawmaker is the textbook definition of ‘quid pro quo’… and it’s ILLEGAL.
** THE LONG STORY
The legislation that Karen Fann authored and pushed into Arizona Law that now limits WHO is allowed to ever see copies of some Arizona public records is detailed HERE on the Arizona Legislature PUBLIC website…
Arizona House Bill HB2225
Introduced by State Representative Karen Fann ( Republican – Prescott )
Signed into LAW by Arizona Governor on April 17, 2014.
http://www.azleg.gov/DocumentsForBill.asp?Session_ID=112&Bill_Number=HB2225
The actual TEXT of the bill that was signed into law by the Governor is here…
http://www.azleg.gov//FormatDocument.asp?inDoc=/legtext/51leg/2r/bills/hb2225h.htm&Session_ID=112
Even the final version signed by the Governor contains the following ‘Oh by the way.. Notwithstanding Title 39, Chapter1’ text…
11-597.02. Autopsy photographs, digital images, x-rays and video recordings; in camera review; exceptions; procedures; immunity
—————————————————
A. Notwithstanding title 39, chapter 1, photographs, digital images, x-rays and video recordings of human remains that are created by a medical examiner, alternate medical examiner or their employees or agents during a death investigation that is conducted pursuant to this chapter may not be disclosed by a medical examiner, alternate medical examiner or their employees or agents unless a judge of the superior court grants disclosure of all or part of the materials after reviewing the materials in camera.
—————————————————-
So right there in Karen Fann’s own new ( unnecessary ) law… it says flat-out that this IN NO WAY overrides the ‘existing Arizona Public Records’ laws that are already on the books.
She is ONLY trying to please the family members who ( apparently ) came to her when AZCENTRAL was making its original attempt to see both the autopys REPORTS and ‘any other material related to the investigation’ and (apparently ) ASKED her to try and pass some kind of LAW to accomodate THEIR wishes.
See next ‘Reply’ for a link to the existing ‘Arizona Open Records’ LAW(s)…
Followup…
Notice that Karen Fann’s new LAW specifically says…
“… photographs, digital images, x-rays and video recordings of human remains that are CREATED BY a medical examiner, alternate medical examiner or their employees or agents during a death investigation that is conducted pursuant to this chapter may not be disclosed.”
So after all her efforts… Karen Fann didn’t even succeed in doing what she was trying to do.
That verbiage means this ‘new law’ ONLY applies to ‘photos and videos’ that are CREATED by the Medical Examiner’s office in the process of performing their examination/autopsy.
It has NOTHING to do with all the photos and videos that were known to have been taken by the YCSO Police officers on both June 30 and July 1, 2013, as part of THEIR investigation.
And this law most certainly does nothing to prevent ANYONE from obtaining copies of the WRITTEN autopsy/toxicology reports.
Those are still very much considered PUBLIC DOCUMENTS and still totally accessible via a standard ‘Arizona Open Records’ requests.
ANYONE who tries to tie a request for just those WRITTEN ‘autopsy/toxicology’ reports back to this new Karen Fann legislation and who even tries to say they can’t release those WRITTEN reports without a ‘Court Order’ hasn’t read the actual document that was signed into LAW by the Arizona Governor.
** ARIZONA OPEN RECORDS LAW
Here are just a few ‘highlights’ from Arizona LAW – Title 39, Chapter 1, that is
specifically mentioned with the ‘Notwithstanding’ clause in Karen Fann’s
own ‘new’ legislation…
————————————————————————————-
Arizona Law
Title 39, Chapter 1 – PUBLIC RECORDS
http://www.azleg.state.az.us/ArizonaRevisedStatutes.asp?Title=39
39-101. Permanent public records; quality; storage; violation; classification
A. Permanent public records of the state, a county, city or town, or other political subdivision of the state, shall be transcribed or kept on paper or other material which is of durable or permanent quality and which conforms to standards established by the director of the Arizona state library, archives and public records.
B. Permanent public records transcribed or kept as provided in subsection A shall be stored and maintained according to standards for the storage of permanent public records established by the director of the Arizona state library, archives and public records.
C. A public officer charged with transcribing or keeping such public records who VIOLATES this section is GUILTY of a CLASS 2 MISDEMEANOR.
39-121. Inspection of public records
Public records and other matters in the custody of any officer shall be open to inspection by any person at all times during office hours.
D. Subject to section 39-121.03:
1. ANY PERSON may request to examine or be furnished copies, printouts or photographs of any public record during regular office hours or may request that the custodian mail a copy of any public record not otherwise available on the public body’s website to the requesting person.
——————————————————————————-
Robert the Second says
NOVEMBER 30, 2015 AT 7:21 PM
Gary,
Here’s some more to ponder on your line of thought:
Theory of Consequentialism – he consequences of one’s conduct are the ultimate basis for any judgment about the rightness or wrongness of that conduct. Thus, from a consequentialist standpoint, a morally right act (or omission from acting) is one that will produce a good outcome, or consequence. In an extreme form, the idea of consequentialism is commonly encapsulated in the English saying, “THE END JUSTIFIES THE MEANS” meaning that if a goal is morally important enough, any method of achieving it is acceptable.” I have found this more attributed to the Jesuits, the military arm of the Papacy, than any other group or institution.
Rule Consequentialism – holds that moral behavior involves following certain rules. However, rule consequentialism chooses rules based on the consequences that the selection of those rules have.
Motive Consequentialism – This version gives relevance to the motive of an act and links it to its consequences. An act can therefore not be wrong if the decision to act was based on a right motive. A possible inference is, that one can not be blamed for mistaken judgments if the motivation was to do good.”
All of us, as WF supervisors, rationalize the things we do, some of the time, others most of the time, some none of the time. I allege that Marsh most definitely rationalized what he did on the firelines so that he could get his way MOST of the time.
Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Consequentialism
And I say, “Was I thinking along this line of thought? I majored in Police Science and Sociology because it was easier than Psychology and then I was a hotshot who never wanted to be anything other than a hotshot but I wasn’t tough enough.
This type of thinking makes my head hurt when I try. Even after I was an investigator, I just had to find an expert who could explain this kind of thing and not try and do it myself. I am not being modest here, or using deprecating humor, I really can’t follow stuff like this.
A man has to know his limitations.
I’ll take a stab at it…
First off, when RTS wrote that I read it, read it again and thought about how that theory lines-up with not only the actions of GMIHC that day but also the rationalization of their actions after the fact. RTS is sharp. Makes me wonder why someone like him chose to work on & lead a hotshot crew for so long in the freakin’ desert of Arizona…seems like a waste! Haha
RTS said:
“Theory of Consequentialism – [T]he consequences of one’s conduct are the ultimate basis for any judgment about the rightness or wrongness of that conduct.”
“Thus, from a consequentialist standpoint, a morally right act (or omission from acting) is one that will produce a good outcome, or consequence.”
Me:
The results of one’s actions or the outcome is to be judged as to whether what they did was RIGHT or WRONG. Actions have consequences. We are judging in this way here. The consequences of the fireline leadership at Yarnell and GM are that 19 hotshots died SO WHAT THEY DID WAS WRONG!
What I found particularly interesting was the theory of “MOTIVE CONSEQUENTIALISM when RTS posted. Check this out:
From RTS:
“Motive Consequentialism – This version gives relevance to the motive of an act and links it to its consequences.”
Me: Notice the introduction of MOTIVE of actions here. What it means to me is that if they had GOOD INTENTIONS in their actions then what they did WAS CORRECT because of those GOOD INTENTIONS. They get a pass because they meant well!
This is pretty deep stuff but I think I may understand….well, RTS? Do I understand this?
One of the reasons current and former wildland firefighters are studying this, along with a cross section of others, is because we believe something went wrong at Yarnell Hill and almost an entire crew should not have died. As wildland firefighters, we do not like it when this happens, and seek to learn lessons to prevent this type of tragedy from happening again. We have been obstructed from the truth and subsequent lessons (SAIR – what a joke) AND THAT PISSES US OFF, ROYALLY! We don’t ever want anyone in OUR house to die ever, for any reason!!! When we see multiple basic rule violations…well IT MAKES OUR BLOOD BOIL!!!
The powers that be want us to believe they had good intentions so everyone involved should get a pass. Just move along…nothing to see here.
RTS: How have I done so far? Thanks!
Woodsman
Woodsman,
You got it. Good job.
Woodsman,
And Marsh utilized the GOOD INTENTIONS in their (his) actions to justify what they (he) did AS CORRECT, and so because of those GOOD INTENTIONS, they(he) gets a pass because they (he) meant well.
So, in his mind, it was all good, and everyone else should be okay with it.
RTS,
If this line of thinking continues to exist or proliferate in wildfire management, we will continue to lose firefighters unnecessarily. Such a damn shame.
Woodsman
One more thing…
From RTS:
“Rule Consequentialism – holds that moral behavior involves following certain rules. However, rule consequentialism chooses rules based on the consequences that the selection of those rules have.”
Competent wildland firefighters are REQUIRED to be “Rule Consequentialists.” We have rules we MUST follow. Standard orders, watch-outs… rules that if not followed have a high probability of DEATH as a consequence.
Woodsman
Woodsman,
So when you combine several of these together – the means justifies the end. as long as it’s done with good intentions, then you can pick and choose those rules you want to follow, and as the saying goes: “Its all good.” Go for it …. we’ve gotten away with it before, so what’s the big deal.
Basically, the set up for a Perfect Storm in the WFF world.
RTS,
Agreed.
I’ll stand by my words above…
“RTS,
If this line of thinking continues to exist or proliferate in wildfire management, we will continue to lose firefighters unnecessarily. Such a damn shame.”
Woodsman
I guess quoting myself makes me a special class of narcissist…..well, fuck-it…
RTS,
We need experienced safety officers that think like you on the firelines across the country. I hope you are one and stay active for a long time. A safety officer can shut the whole thing down. Hell, shut the entire incident down until they get their shit straight. Last line of defense, man. That’s what a safety officer is for. I wish a good safety officer was there that day to shut that shit down!
Woodsman
Woodsman,
You posted “A safety officer can shut the whole thing down. Hell, shut the entire incident down until they get their shit straight.”
That’s what I thought as well, until the 2008 Iron Complex in northern California.
http://wildfiretoday.com/2010/12/08/summary-of-the-investigation-into-the-iron-44-fire-9-fatality-helicopter-crash/
Myself and the DIVS tried for SEVERAL HOURS with the Branch Director on the Command channel to shut down the Type I helicopter Crew shuttle for the Division (Overhead and Grayback, Type 2 Crew). But you won’t find this in the report anywhere because it doesn’t fit ‘The Party Line.’
Supposedly, it was because of an alleged incoming thunderstorm, that never manifested. The Crew even volunteered to hike down the hill instead of fly.
And so, the helicopter crashed and burned on the third load, killing nine (9) WFF and the pilot. This was totally predictable and totally preventable.
Then, I allege, it was the classic ‘first establish a conclusion, then find the facts to support it with selective interviews and misplaced interviews and statements until after the “FACTUAL” report was officially published.
I allege that this was just another huge cover-up and whitewash. But that’s another story.
RTS,
I read the link. So I guess Safety Officers are just ‘feel good’ positions…good to know. I was thinking about working towards that very job when I finish growing up but looks like a bullshit job if the command staff won’t take it seriously. Guess I’ll just hang up the boots and watch the carnage on the news when I’m done on the line.
The Iron 44 fire was quite the cluster in it’s own right. Greed and fraudulent representation of the aircraft’s performance in order to secure a lucrative contract, killed 9. The NTSB wailed on the company pretty good and here is an update I found: The scumbag owner of Carson helo looks to be going to jail:
http://www.mailtribune.com/article/20150414/NEWS/150419757/101064/NEWS
The glass apparently IS half empty and it seems that someone actually HAS pissed in it…
Woodsman
Woodsman,
Continue on to become a Safety Officer because you can make a difference MOST times.
I had to go to the UK to find a source for this story that General Electric (GE) knew all along about the engine problems and never notified any of their vendors with those particular engines.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2121326/GE-pay-177million-2008-helicopter-crash-killed-firefighters-en-route-blaze.html
Moreover, the NTSB has removed it’s links to the best relevant documentation and Carson Helicopter submissions pleading with NTSB to focus on the FCU/s and engines and NOT on the weight.
The weight was NOT the issue, it was one of the engines.
Send me an email address and I’ll send you the missing NTSB links that I have (that may not even matter if they have removed the actual documents)
A helicopter crash that killed nine continues to raise questions more than two years after the accident. The accident occurred on August 5, 2008 near Weaverville, California as a Sikorsky S-61N helicopter took off from a rugged mountaintop clearing ferrying firefighters to a wildfire in the Trinity Alps Wilderness. Seven contract firefighters, a U.S. Forest Service safety inspector and the pilot were killed.
On Dec 7, 2010 the NTSB met to determine the cause of the crash and make safety recommendations. Their recommendations raised questions about the safety of government aircraft and documents indicated the chopper was overweight.
Two victims’ families are speaking out through an attorney against those findings by the NTSB. The Coultas and Schwanenberg families charge the NTSB changed its initial conclusion from an engine failure to a weight issue because the report was written by the wife of the NTSB investigator that was responsible for the security of the parts, according to Gregory Anderson of AndersonGlenn, LLC.
Bill Coultas, who was severely injured in the accident and Christine Schwanenberg, wife of Roark Schwanenberg, who was killed in the crash believe there should be an impartial and unbiased investigation and that there is a conflict of interest with this report.
Both men were pilots of the helicopter, employed by Carson Helicopters. The families, through Anderson, would like to make the following facts public:
1) The original cause of the accident found by NTSB investigators was the loss of power from the No. 2 engine due to a well known issue over fuel filtration. The NTSB reached this conclusion following the inspection of the engines at a Columbia Helicopters repair facility in Aurora, Oregon on August 14th, 15th and 16th, 2008, just nine days following the August 5th accident. Columbia, an approved fuel system contractor for repair of the GE CT-58 engines involved in the accident, was the last party to have physical control of the parts. NTSB investigator Jim Struhsaker turned over control of the Fuel Control Units to Columbia on August 16th, 2008 for shipment back to the NTSB. Carson was not present, having left the inspection on the 15th to attend memorial services of the victims.
2) Columbia, GE and Sikorsky are all financially interested parties as defendants in multi-million dollar lawsuits brought by the victims and their families.
3) The Flight Data Recorder (FDR) was functioning and had 77 hours of data recorded. The NTSB investigators could not coordinate the timeline of the cockpit voice recorder with the FDR data so they labeled it “invalid” or “irrelevant”. In fact, it contains information of heading, altitude and engine performance. No attempt was made to integrate this data after August 16th 2008, when the fuel system components were lost.
4) GE, Sikorsky and Columbia had been facing allegations of a dangerous defect regarding the fuel control units, specifically, stuck stator vanes due to a contamination of Pressure Regulating Valves (PRV) and clogged filters, which when clogged to a certain degree, allow the CT58 to continue to operate through the use of an emergency by-pass valve. When this occurs, unfiltered fuel is allowed into the Fuel Control Unit, and results in contamination of the system. The diameter or “clearance” of the diaphragm of the PRV is only six (6) microns in thickness. The filters in use in N612AZ, the S-61 involved in the Trinity crash, as well as the four preceding crashes from this issue, were for forty (40) micron contaminants. The US military identified the filtration issue in its S-61s in the 1990s and switched to the finer, 10 micron filter. Following the upgrade, military S-61s no longer had fuel filter issues.
5) The day following the accident, email exchanges between GE and Sikorsky engineering departments raise filtration immediately after being notified about the accident.
6) The S-61N involved, had a maintenance history that included concerns over stuck fuel system components due to fuel contamination. The maintenance history of the S61N was not considered in the Board’s findings.
7) There have been four prior accidents involving the CT58 fuel system in the S-61 where fuel contamination was cited as the cause, including a 2004 detailed investigation by the Canadian Transportation Board into an S-61N firefighter crash where it determined the GE CT58 fuel filter issue was the probable cause. The prior accidents were not considered by the Board.
. 8) The sole evidence that the No. 2 GE CT58 engine in N612AZ was functioning nominally was a sound spectrum analysis prepared by GE using Sikorsky charts of the sound signature of the planetary gears in the S-61 transmission and the sound signature of the gas generator blade rpm. In order to determine whether the No. 2 engine was developing its full power, the NTSB would need four facts: first, “Nr” or rotor blade rpm; second, “Ng”, or gas generator (compressor) speed; “Nf” or power turbine speed; and finally, “T5” or turbine inlet temperature, which shows the amount of heat developed in the CT58 combustion chamber (for the CT58-140 installed in this S-61N configuration, that should have been 721 degrees). The NTSB did not determine the second and third required parameters and so could not have determined whether the No. 2 engine had achieved “topping” or top rated horsepower.
9) The sound spectrum analysis is the only “quantitative” data for the conclusion that the No. 2 engine had not failed. Absent this GE/Sikorsky analysis, all of the NTSB conclusions are speculation. Objective facts supporting an engine issue include the No. 2 torque gauge found post accident with a “split” of 30% from No. 1. The NTSB theorized this could be from a power loss but wiring schematics show this to be an A/C powered gauge that would have frozen with a sudden loss of power, not wound down. Even if it had been a DC powered gauge, there would not have been a split: both gauges would have wound down to zero torque. The Emergency Throttle for No. 2 was found in the partially opened position. Bill Coultas and a second eyewitness confirm that he was attempting to open the No. 2 Emergency Throttle after he saw the torque split on the gauges. The only reason to do so was a concern by the flight crew with fuel. The Emergency Throttles are gated and require significant force to move to an open position. Bill Coultas testified they lost power and noted the loss of rotor speed before they hit any trees.
10) Comparison of the markings on the stator vanes are significant.
11) The NTSB ignored Bill Coultas’ testimony that they had cleared a 50′ (AGL) tree before losing power and descending into the #1, #2 and #3 trees documented to have been hit by the rotor blades in the report. The GPS plot of N612AZ’s course, combined with the (NTSB commissioned) survey of the area, prove unequivocally that N612AZ climbed to 60′ or more before losing power. The significance is that in sloping terrain (the NTSB survey shows between 8 and 20 degrees of ground slope once the helicopter left the immediate landing area of H-44), the “Hover Out of Ground Effect” (“HOGE”) altitude could not have been more than 30′ (AGL). To get to an altitude of 60-70′ AGL, the helicopter had to climb out of ground effect, which renders the theory of an overweight issue as a cause, speculative. Succinctly, if the helicopter was grossly overweight, it would have never been able to climb out of ground effect (the cushion of air between the ground and the whirling disk of the rotor blades), but would have “settled” back down. This effect would have been immediately noticed by the flight crew. It is a matter of mathematical certainty that an S61N at this density altitude could not have climbed out of ground effect and over a 50′ obstacle if it were in a gross overload situation. As a matter of record, N612AZ did climb out of ground effect and transition into forward flight, and climbed over a 50′ obstacle. Weight was not the issue.
12) The NTSB asks the public and the aviation community in particular, to believe that a Pilot-in-Command (Roark Schwanenberg), a Second-in -Command (Bill Coultas) and a Forest Service Check Pilot (Jim Ramage), with a combined total of 29,000 hours of helicopter time: lifted off from H-44; never noticed any weight problem; never noticed the helicopter settling; never felt it reacting sluggishly; never considered putting her back down; never thought of their own safety (all three had families –Schwanenberg and Coultas with minor children); ignored the lives of the nine firefighters in the back, and essentially flew directly into the trees.
13) The NTSB took Bill Coultas’ statement that “we had plenty of power” and presented it as though he was stating the condition of the helicopter as it was crashing. The transcript of his post-accident interview makes clear he was stating that he and PIC Schwanenberg had determined that they would have plenty of power for the last (crash) flight as they performed the preflight calculations, based on the observed temperature and winds. By taking the SIC’s statement out of context, the NTSB presented it as conformation that the engines were producing full power. This is contrary to sound investigation techniques requiring an unbiased and impartial evaluation of the testimony.
14) The NTSB Materials Report (taken off the public docket in violation of the NTSB’s “transparency” policy issued in June of 2009), was the result of complaints by the victims and the aircraft’s owner/operator, Carson Helicopters to the NTSB and to members of Congress, including Oregon Representative Pete DeFazio. After Carson’s request for a congressional investigation into the loss of the parts, the NTSB investigation shifted to an investigation of Carson and the weight issue. Prior to Carson expressing concerns to Congress over the parts, the focus was on the engine filtration issue.
15) In the GE/Sikorsky prepared “worst case” simulation, the helicopter was alleged to have weighed 19,008 lbs. The Sikorsky performance charts, even using the “stock” rotor blades instead of the composite, high performance blades on N612AZ, show that at this altitude, temperature and wind, the helicopter could lift over 19,100 lbs. Assuming every fact in favor of the NTSB/GE/Sikorsky simulations, N612AZ could have and did fly from H-44 until the No. 2 engine failed.
RTS,
Now that’s interesting. When I read the recommendations by NTSB, it was full of weight problems, load miscalculations, etc……..then just throw in there was ‘oh by the way, should have had a 10 micron fuel filter…’ It was a recommendation that didn’t seem to fit the nature of all the rest. I guess that’s why. So, why is the owner of Carson Helos headed to or in jail?
One question, if you can (or want to) answer it: What did you identify as the problem that made you attempt for so long to halt the transport operation? And why was it ignored by branch?
Thanks!
Woodsman
Woodsman,
Both the DIVS and I had STRONG gut feelings (the Holy Spirit for me) that something wasn’t right about the whole thing, including we almost never shuttle Crews in Type I helicopters.
I found out later, the Zion Helitack module had been asked to remove trees in the departure that ‘the pilots’ didn’t feel comfortable with. They were only ‘allowed’ to cut the ones the pilots identified (the Helitack personnel wanted to cut more) and a local READ said no due to H-44 being along a wilderness trail.
These were some of the trees the S-61 hit on their departure that afternoon.
Here’s a link to the SAFENET I filed on this deadly fire (a WFF drowned, the Dutch Creek fatality, and more).
http://safenet.nifc.gov/view_safenet.cfm?id=25175
I filed others on this deadly fire and I’ll post those accordingly
Woodsman,
And another Iron Complex SAFENET
http://safenet.nifc.gov/view_safenet.cfm?id=25162
And another Iron Complex SAFENET, this one ending up with a Region 5 ‘White Paper’ regarding NO further nepotism on IMT’s.
http://safenet.nifc.gov/view_safenet.cfm?id=25174
The Trainee OPS was the IC’s wife and the IMT SOF1 told me “that’s just the way it is …”
And another on the 2008 Iron Complex, which dovetailed with and bolstered the one I filed on nepotism.
http://safenet.nifc.gov/view_safenet.cfm?id=25156
Woodsman,
One more link with Carson Helicopter dissenting opinions on the NTSB cover-up and whitewash of the Iron Complex H-44 debacle
Carson Helicopters has challenged the U.S. National Transportation Safety Board’s (NTSB’s) finding that company actions were to blame for the Aug. 5, 2008, crash of a Sikorsky S-61N, complaining that the agency tried to “make Carson a scapegoat” while ignoring “an ongoing safety-of-flight issue.”
Franklin Carson, president of Carson Helicopters, denounced as “arbitrary and one-sided” the Dec. 7, 2010, public hearing during which the NTSB approved its final report on the accident, including the probable cause.
Carson said that the company believes that the accident was caused by a loss of power to the no. 2 engine and that the power loss resulted from contamination in the fuel control. He said the NTSB ignored “indisputable evidence” that supports the company’s claim.
He noted that, six years before the accident, his company told engine manufacturer General Electric (GE), Sikorsky and Columbia Helicopters, which overhauls fuel controls, about Carson Helicopters’ belief that fuel control contamination caused engines to lose power.
“Two years before the accident, GE recommended that Sikorsky change the airframe filter for the fuel control from 40 microns to 10 microns to address this problem,” Carson said. “One day after the accident, GE e-mailed Sikorsky asking what was being done about changing the airframe fuel filter. It wasn’t until almost two years after the accident that Sikorsky issued a service bulletin changing the approved filter from 40 microns to 10 microns.”
Carson said that the NTSB “ignored the experienced copilot’s direct testimony that he saw signs of power loss in the no. 2 engine immediately prior to the crash, and … ignored his direct reading of the actual air temperature at the scene in favor of manufactured data that fit their preconceived narrative.”
In addition, he said that the NTSB “lost care and custody of fuel control unit (FCU) parts early in this investigation and from that point forward did not pursue evidence chains leading to the fuel control units.” He said that “significant contaminants ranging in size up to 28 microns” were found inside the no. 2 FCU and added, “There is a history of power loss problems due to contaminants in the FCU because of inadequate fuel filtering that was known by the manufacturer and not properly explored by the NTSB.”
Carson said that the NTSB did not participate in independent flight tests that were conducted in density altitude conditions that matched those at the accident site. The tests verified U.S. Federal Aviation Administration performance charts that showed that the helicopter had more than enough power to fly out of Helispot-44, he said.
He also said that the NTSB’s primary investigation team “had no relevant helicopter experience to properly investigate this accident and misplaced their emphasis on poorly contrived data instead of concentrating on the hard evidence leading to the ultimate cause of this accident and an ongoing safety-of-flight issue.”
—LW
Another key safety issue that contributed to the deaths was the COMPLICATED SEAT BELTS THAT WERE REQUIRED BY USFS CONTRACT that were very difficult to open and close. These were NO longer required after the H-44 Fatalities.
Reply to Woodsman post on
December 5, 2015 at 2:03 pm
>> Woodsman said…
>>
>> Now that’s interesting. When I read the
>> recommendations by NTSB, it was full
>> of weight problems, load miscalculations,
>> etc……..then just throw in there was
>> ‘oh by the way, should have had
>> a 10 micron fuel filter…’ It was a
>> recommendation that didn’t seem to
>> fit the nature of all the rest. I guess
>> that’s why.
>>
>> So, why is the owner of Carson
>> Helos headed to or in jail?
I beleive that despite all the controversy about ‘power loss’ versus ‘based weight representation issues’… Carson Helicopters WAS found to have been totally mis-representing the BASE WEIGHT of the contracted helo and it was then proven that Carson executives went to great lengths to try and cover THIS up… including ORDERING employees to remove all kinds of shit from their other helicopters before the FEDS came snooping around so that the estimated BASE WEIGHT they were already reporting for THOSE ‘other’ Federally contracted helos would end up ‘matching reality’.
See the following article…
The Mail Tribune
Article Title: ‘Pure greed’ led to deadly Carson helicopter crash, feds say
Former Carson Helicopters VP Steven Metheny faces 15 years in prison
PUBLISHED: AprIL 14, 2015 at 9:45 am
By Mark Freeman
http://www.mailtribune.com/article/20150414/NEWS/150419757
At the top of the article is a photograph of the crash scene, including the ‘trees’ in question.
WTKTT and Woodsman,
I will stand by and support Mr. Carson and Carson Helicopters forever. Yes, there were two Carson employees that were to blame for nefarious deeds related to the crash; one for falsifying the performance charts and the other, an executive, for knowing about it all and going along with it.
I do NOT and will NOT believe anything in any news media that gets it’s ‘information’ from doled out ‘Talking Points’, spoon fed to them by the Public (Dis)Information Officers of that Agency.
When any Government Agency puts out ‘Talking Points’, they are trying to hide something, pure and simple.
RTS,
Copy that. You know way more about it than I do as I just heard about it today and you were actually there.
Woodsman
And here is my reply to Fraijo. I have been threatened by some scary people in my life. These two assholes don’t qualify.
gary olson
Today at 2:39 AM
To
[email protected]
Message body
Dear Chief Fraijo
Fuck you. You played a major role in killing the Granite Mountain Hotshots as well because you were so fucking CLUELESS! And you put that stupid bastard Darrell Fucking Willis in charge.
Gary
Here is my reply to Fann.
gary olson
Today at 2:35 AM
To
Karen Fann
Message body
Karen,
I can’t think of a better way to spend my time than to expose your corruptness as the queen of quid pro quo and the truth. Amanda Marsh was drinking with Eric Marsh at that brewery the night before he died, she know exactly how drunk he was and I already have the toxicology reports that proves how drunk he was when he went on the fire line and when he died.
So sue away. The first step in a successful lawsuit is to prove I am telling a lie. Keep checking IM just to see how much I don’t stop telling the truth and looking for more. So…
Gary
To the State and Attorney General.
Release the Coroners report and all the Toxicology Reports and prove Gary wrong.
Canceling evidence will not last long. The Public has a right to know……
Reply to Bob Powers post on December 5, 2015 at 9:02 am
>> Bob Powers said…
>>
>> To the State and Attorney General.
>> Release the Coroners report and all the Toxicology Reports
>> and prove Gary wrong.
>> Canceling evidence will not last long. The Public has a right to know……
Yes… we do.
See a longer response up above in this new parent comment…
http://www.investigativemedia.com/please-begin-yarnell-hill-fire-chapter-xvii-here/#comment-317970
As it turns out… Arizona state representative Karen Fann ( Republican – Prescott ) didn’t even accomplish what she set out to achieve ( apparently at the request of some subset of GM family members ) with her ‘new law’… HB2225.
Her ‘new law’ only applies to PHOTOS and VIDEOS that are specifically CREATED by the Medical Examiner’s Office in the course of performing THEIR investigation/autopsy’.
Her ‘new’ law’ does NOTHING to override the existing ‘Arizona Open Records’ laws ( Title 39, Chapter 1 ) when it comes to DOCUMENTS such as written autopsy/toxicology reports.
Those are still obtainable ( legally ) by ANYONE according to Arizona’s own ‘Open Records’ laws.
And it was even a twofer because I got one back from Fraijo as well? So I am not even sure who wrote the reply Fraijo or Fann?
Dan Fraijo
Dec 4 at 7:39 PM
To
Karen Fann
CC
gary olson
Message body
Well done, thanks. Dan
Sent from my iPhone
> On Dec 4, 2015, at 7:59 PM, Karen Fann wrote:
>
>
> Mr. Olson, I firmly do not believe a word of anything you wrote in your email. Not only do I believe it to be totally untrue, I find it to be one of nastiest emails I have ever received. These were brave men who gave their lives protecting us and I cannot imagine why you would want to destroy their memories and reputations.
> I strongly urge you to cease and desist these nasty allegations before someone takes you to court for defamation.
> In addition, I would appreciate it if you would not send me any more emails and you find some other constructive way to spend your time.
>
> Regards,
> Representative Karen Fann
>
> Sent from my iPad
>
> On Dec 4, 2015, at 12:16 PM, gary olson <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> Hi Karen,
>
> Have you been keeping up with current events on IM. The big secret is finally out now.
>
> Most of the Granite Mountain Hotshot Crew were drunker than sailors during Fleet Week when they went on the fire line on the Yarnell Hill Fire. This includes ALL of their leadership under the direction of Eric Marsh whose U.S. Forest Service career was ended when he was sent home with the Globe Hotshots from the Clear Creek Fire in Idaho after he was caught drinking alcohol and smoking marijuana on the fire line with members from the crew under his supervision which included the saw team.
>
> Are the information stations at the new state park you engineered going to contain any of this information?
>
> Two of the hotshots had blood alcohol content levels so high in their blood at the time of their deaths there is no doubt in my mind they were drinking on the fire line.
>
> A 180-200 pound man loses about .01g% per hour, so you can do the math from the summary of the toxicology reports on the hotshots that I have included with this email. Scary…right? You are lucky the Prescott Courier is afraid to run with this story. How long do you thing that will continue?
>
> Back up the numbers…14 of the 20 were drunk (including McDonough, who was never tested but he was known to be drinking on Whiskey Row with other hotshots the night before and he is an alcoholic) when they hit the fire line. One was high on drugs. And five were sober but they went along for the last ride of their lives.
>
> Here is a quote from the Mayo Clinic.
>
> “Ethanol acts on cerebral functions as a depressant similar to general anesthetics. This depression causes most of the typical symptoms such as impaired thought, clouded judgment, and changed behavior. As the level of alcohol increases, the degree of impairment becomes progressively increased.”
>
> The Granite Mountain Hotshots, or at least certain constituents thereof, really were hard-core party animals. And apparently many of their friends (men and women) would go down to Yarnell after the Fire and carry on the tradition, they were known as “…pew boys, and puke boys.”
>
> Hotshot crews do seem to have this ubiquitous association with being hard party animals. I do know since I was one for 10 years. I suppose Granite’s excuse, if any, was that they thought they were having the weekend off. Which I think was a pretty good one until Eric Marsh decided to play an end run around the system and take them to that fire even though they were out of rotation.
>
> Eric Marsh. What a guy. Once of his crewman got charged with DUI and Eric tells him, “Well…at least you have got some life in you.” Eric Marsh. Clean and sober for 10 years? Ya…right!
>
> Being hung-over means severe dehydration; that sort of dehydration always means mental confusion. It would not surprise me in the least if Granite had already blasted through their water reserves early on that (scorching) day, hence their intense desire to get off that mountain to go save Yarnell in spite of all of the danger signs. Like the pyroclastic cloud of ash, smoke and airborne burning debris looming over their heads as they hiked directly into the path of a raging fire storm.
>
> Wow! I am still at a loss for words after more than two years to adequately describe how I feel about the deaths of those kids on that crew.
>
> Hang in there. Maybe nobody who really matters will ever put 2 and 2 together and come up with 4?
>
> Sincerely, Gary
>
Who say’s that baiting “them” doesn’t pay off?
Karen Fann
Dec 4 at 7:00 PM
To
gary olson
Message body
Mr. Olson, I firmly do not believe a word of anything you wrote in your email. Not only do I believe it to be totally untrue, I find it to be one of nastiest emails I have ever received. These were brave men who gave their lives protecting us and I cannot imagine why you would want to destroy their memories and reputations.
I strongly urge you to cease and desist these nasty allegations before someone takes you to court for defamation.
In addition, I would appreciate it if you would not send me any more emails and you find some other constructive way to spend your time.
Regards,
Representative Karen Fann
Sent from my iPad
On Dec 4, 2015, at 12:16 PM, gary olson <[email protected]> wrote:
Hi Karen,
Have you been keeping up with current events on IM. The big secret is finally out now.
Most of the Granite Mountain Hotshot Crew were drunker than sailors during Fleet Week when they went on the fire line on the Yarnell Hill Fire. This includes ALL of their leadership under the direction of Eric Marsh whose U.S. Forest Service career was ended when he was sent home with the Globe Hotshots from the Clear Creek Fire in Idaho after he was caught drinking alcohol and smoking marijuana on the fire line with members from the crew under his supervision which included the saw team.
Are the information stations at the new state park you engineered going to contain any of this information?
Two of the hotshots had blood alcohol content levels so high in their blood at the time of their deaths there is no doubt in my mind they were drinking on the fire line.
A 180-200 pound man loses about .01g% per hour, so you can do the math from the summary of the toxicology reports on the hotshots that I have included with this email. Scary…right? You are lucky the Prescott Courier is afraid to run with this story. How long do you thing that will continue?
Back up the numbers…14 of the 20 were drunk (including McDonough, who was never tested but he was known to be drinking on Whiskey Row with other hotshots the night before and he is an alcoholic) when they hit the fire line. One was high on drugs. And five were sober but they went along for the last ride of their lives.
Here is a quote from the Mayo Clinic.
“Ethanol acts on cerebral functions as a depressant similar to general anesthetics. This depression causes most of the typical symptoms such as impaired thought, clouded judgment, and changed behavior. As the level of alcohol increases, the degree of impairment becomes progressively increased.”
The Granite Mountain Hotshots, or at least certain constituents thereof, really were hard-core party animals. And apparently many of their friends (men and women) would go down to Yarnell after the Fire and carry on the tradition, they were known as “…pew boys, and puke boys.”
Hotshot crews do seem to have this ubiquitous association with being hard party animals. I do know since I was one for 10 years. I suppose Granite’s excuse, if any, was that they thought they were having the weekend off. Which I think was a pretty good one until Eric Marsh decided to play an end run around the system and take them to that fire even though they were out of rotation.
Eric Marsh. What a guy. Once of his crewman got charged with DUI and Eric tells him, “Well…at least you have got some life in you.” Eric Marsh. Clean and sober for 10 years? Ya…right!
Being hung-over means severe dehydration; that sort of dehydration always means mental confusion. It would not surprise me in the least if Granite had already blasted through their water reserves early on that (scorching) day, hence their intense desire to get off that mountain to go save Yarnell in spite of all of the danger signs. Like the pyroclastic cloud of ash, smoke and airborne burning debris looming over their heads as they hiked directly into the path of a raging fire storm.
Wow! I am still at a loss for words after more than two years to adequately describe how I feel about the deaths of those kids on that crew.
Hang in there. Maybe nobody who really matters will ever put 2 and 2 together and come up with 4?
Sincerely, Gary
I want to add this factoid to the mix that I received in an email on the side which I think is right on target.
“Being hungover means severe dehydration; that sort of dehydration always means mental confusion. It would not surprise me in the least if Granite had already blasted through their water reserves early on that (scorching) day.”
And among other things, I’d say they definitely had “MENTAL CONFUSION” by deciding to leave their perfectly good Safety Zone when they did WITHOUT LEAVING A LOOKOUT, and hiking downhill in HEAVY, UNBURNED FUELS through CHUTES and CHIMNEYS, into a BOWL, and spending several minutes actually attempting to cut out a DEPLOYMENT ZONE with chainsaws. Definitely MENTAL CONFUSION there.
adding also the missing elements
than you see it clear
Reply to Gary Olson post on December 4, 2015 at 1:35 pm
>> Gary Olson said…
>>
>> I want to add this factoid to the mix that I received in an email on the side
>> which I think is right on target.
>>
>> “Being hungover means severe dehydration; that sort of dehydration always
>> means mental confusion. It would not surprise me in the least if Granite had
>> already blasted through their water reserves early on that (scorching) day.”
There has ALWAYS been evidence/testimony to support that.
When Brian Frisby and Trueheart Brown had that first ‘face-to-face’ with Eric Marsh and Jesse Steed from exactly 11:55 AM to 12:25 PM ( as per the Blue Ridge GPS tracking data )… they both testified it also turned into ‘resupply’ mission for ‘water and Gatorades’.
Granite Mountain had only been working on the ridge for 3 hours, it wasn’t even the hottest part of the day yet, and they were already needing to be ‘resupplied’ with ‘water and Gatorades’ by NOON that day.
Frisby didn’t have much to say about this 30+ minute ‘face-to-face’ meeting with Marsh from 11:55 AM to 12:25 PM, but he did specifically mentioning having to ‘resupply’ GM with more ‘water and Gatorades’ even around NOON…
From Blue Ridge Superintendent Brian Frisby’s handwritten Unit Log…
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We made our way up the Saddle toward Granite Mountain with the (Polaris) ranger. When we met them we talked about the bad clone and lack of briefing. We gave them some waters and Gatorades and they asked of we could bring their ( *redacted*… but obviously something like “one of their guys down the hill to a lookout mound” ). We introduced ourselves and took him down the hill.
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From Blue Ridge Assistant Superintendent Trueheart Brown’s typed Unit Log…
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We tie in ( with Granite Mountain up on the ridge ). I notice that they have about 100 yards of line secure. We talk to them about the situation and comments are made about how neither crew received a briefing. We also discuss the issue about the radios.. We gave them ALL the extra water and Gatorade that we had in the Ranger and told them what we saw from below.
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So Frisby says they gave them ‘some waters and Gatorades’, but Brown says they gave them “ALL the extra water and Gatorade’ that was in the Ranger.
The SAIT team, however makes no mention of this ‘resupply’ action on the part of Blue Ridge when Frisby and Brown had that first face-to-face with Marsh and Steed from 11:55 AM to 12:25 PM…
PDF page 25 of the SAIR document…
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A little before noon, on the two-track road just below the saddle, BR Supt and BR Capt meet DIVS A and GM Capt at the anchor point. Over the next half hour, they discuss tactics and agree to use a Granite Mountain crewmember as a lookout (GM Lookout). GM Lookout identifies a lookout spot down near the old grader at the bottom of the slope, and GM Capt agrees it will be a good vantage point. BR Supt, BR Capt, DIVS A, and GM Capt also discuss problems.with radios on the incident, noting some radios do not have appropriate tone guards and communication is adversely affected.
BR Supt and BR Capt depart and drive GM Lookout down to the old grader, dropping him off at 1239. They feel comfortable leaving him at this spot, and BR Supt tells the lookout, “If you need me, call, and I’ll come get you.”
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Moving this to the top so it won’t get lost in the weeds about the unfit for duty discussion below regarding alcohol and fatigue. This is a Wildfire Today post from November 28, 2015, titled: “How much sleep do tactical athletes need?”
It’s written by Charles Palmer (20 years as a former WFF and Smokejumper) , an associate professor at the University of MT who studies performance psychology of wildland firefighters, calling them “tactical athletes”.
Here’s one of the quotes: “Behavioral alertness and a range of cognitive functions, including sustained attention, and working memory deteriorate when nightly sleep is limited to between 4 and 7 hours. Decisionmaking skills, such as the ability to assess risk, assimilate changing information, and revise strategies to solve problems based on new information are likely to suffer.”
It appears that the majority of the GMHS were functioning on limited sleep just prior to the YH Fire for a number of reasons, including possibly consuming copious amounts of alcohol.
“Behavioral alertness.” “Sustained attention.” “Decisionmaking skills, such as the ability to assess risk, assimilate changing information, and revise strategies to solve problems based on new information are likely to suffer.” Ya think? WTF!?
I think it’s safe to say, this was occurring in varying degrees with the GMHS on June 30, 2013.
http://wildfiretoday.com/?s=fatigue&submit=Search
RTS-It appears that the majority of the GMHS were functioning on limited sleep just prior to the YH Fire for a number of reasons, including possibly consuming copious amounts of alcohol.
MY REPLY: Not just the hikers the eyewitness but family and friends and people that were on fire and people who knew them all confirm RTS those possibilities yet there is more… MISSING ELEMENTS as well
I have a question not just for this site but the World—
That June 30, 2013 Sonny even though I don’t address it much saved my life
Why?
How?
I was spent…I had hiked from Prescott DMV to Wilhoit appx 24 miles at a slope curvy highway 89 mountain where my husband– disappointed –I did not call him or rent a car but he had to between 4-5am drive home from work to see me and Sonny hiking and were at the Wilhoit point. My health was not the greatest that week so I got a lecture from my husband as well medical massager. I also hiked a few times after that so on June 30 I had put over sixty+ miles of walking in so now it is June 30 and at 12:14pm Sonny sees that hill flair up and burnt up and at 12:38 he showed a serious elderly mountain man concern and he was over-heated and told me he was going the longer way on the Congress side…I had my snake boots off all that time with obvious foot/ankle/leg edema and I was hurting and hot. He as he always loves to do in my life “label” me stubborn or hard-headed and never give understanding that when I met him I was in worse off shape/health than him and to be in my life he would have to have compassion and empathy like with passing out and seizures and I strongly believe he knows and been there through those times that is WHY he came back almost 40 minutes later because he did not want to be charged with abandonment murder charges because of my family would have felt that way had he left me for good up there. Let’s get to REALITY that Sonny does not talk about much…he too was spent and hot and had it locked GET THE FUCK OUT and NOW and not drop down into unburned fuel—I was going to short cut it out near where the men died (cattle pond) where there was unburned fuel because I felt TIMING I had on my side to do that short cut—his way—we learned by homeowners we could of perished and were ok by only eleven minutes…I do not agree…just perceptions…because Foothills was blowing flames and I heard ALL the accounts and I still think I could of got out my way—-
The point here under extreme situation we watched the 20 men —they should of been out of there much earlier or been on the Congress side or in the black…where they died it has been confirmed chemicals were dumped there and as well an abundance of the datura plant. Camp out a game trail camera out there and you will learn the land I KNOW because I LIVE it amongst the animals for so long…I have slept in my sleeping bag to wake up the next day and see on my perimeter camera a tarantula crawl on my face or a rattler slither over my body to get to his point a to b and a mountain lion laying above me as I slept under a shelter I built and a bobcat laying on my thigh as a king bird was perched above the cat…or hundreds of termites or ants cover me or in caves have almost 100 scorpions on me but when you sleep you don’t see the dangers…your eyes are shut…so maybe just maybe the tiredness ways the men and I had that June 30 2013 blinded us from what Sonny obviously saw that day and was FIRM we got to get the hell outta here kid…they have copters and radios to save them—we don’t…
Tactical alert-
Sonny has a natural tactical law enforcement way about him…he gets in gear and just does it—he is the biggest messiest man who lives reckless yet on that mountain he was so determined that fire was dangerous even a couple miles in distance because he knows the mountains and he knew fire because in the big burro mountains of NM him and his dad put them out—lightning strikes— because it meant their home (tent) could be jeapordized—and they had a livelihood of the mines—
so with all the recent terrorism acts—and coast to coast this week mentioning if the grid got hit we could be without ammenities—
my question to you…the World:
Could you survive?
I know after trailing with Sonny in some very harsh rugged areas that only a mountain man who can live off the land can survive and I did it in the hottest of weather and coldest in all types of terrain…I know in all my heart WITH my health problems I can help not just me but others around focusing on the kids, elders and disabled—to live a life without normal life ammenities…remember when I met Sonny I packed 86#s of gear and he just went with himself…I’d store water bottles in my snake boots or hiking pants…telling people I just gained WATER WEIGHT…because I did not trust this reckless man to teach me where water is in all terrains…where to eat off the land…and I now know…not just for the state of Arizona but neighboring states too.
Now RTS…I cannot help to find the value in knowing Sonny…the topic of liquor it has been my biggest area of feeling at ease to live my life away from him because he does not calculate my health and his actions—very taxing…however I am a strong believer in independence and individualism so if I clash with him—my mind works—go back to just desert walking—why engage in it but nowadays I have to set the “bs” we face in knowing another because he is strong on his beliefs and I have bent as much as I could on my end and I am broken…bent…yet I believe in LIFE…I believe in FAITH and I believe without the bread of L.I.F.E.- you are toast! So I will not judge and brush off the bs and do what I do best and that is be his pal….if he stays there—good chance he will die—if I take full liability as his F/MPOA than I will get him better—look at me…I am still kicking even though one doctor Nancy always tells me she is always baffled. She is also upset because of her own profession screwed me up-
I know all about SCREW UPS—
I saw it on the YHF and the aftermath.
Joy,
It sounds to me that you are still blessed in many ways, even with all you have going on.
And, yes, I am prepared for whatever comes our way, I have Jesus as my Lord and Savior. That’s all I need.
professing the blood of Jesus as your Savior will help in the Eternal way of things…yet if we become a world or USA that has no ammenties—no water, no gas, no food, no electricity and if you saw on the evening of February 2, 1971 in NY or the New Orleans Katrina Flood or other areas where you saw the influential attacks of looters and its extremities—and if you seen like me the desert walker how the state and government has gps’d all these mining areas and its caves even ones on private property and I met the man who has been doing it and also filling most caves in…and if you see areas within private and blm and state land where they have installed systems and transmitters that were not there years ago…before I met Sonny I thought when the time comes I know I can do it but to live amongst Sonny…I learned it’s not simple. We had to learn alternate methods of preserving food, how to build things without power tools, how to cook on a wood stove or campfire during all weather and terrain—just so much information—like where in any terrain to look for water and its not something you write in book—you gotta feel it and live it—and well I know it’s important to build confidence especially in the old and young and diabled and the ones who are pharmecutically induced and will be cut off from meds if it happen—so I use to think if I was dropped off anywhere in the world can I do it— ignorantly I use to say sure but now with confidence due to Sonny’s unique lifestyle I can say HELL YES…Sonny should help others…I know he did a few on our hikes but I think what he knows needs to be IN PRINT…like a backpack bible…along with my other dusty bible….
RTS said-It sounds to me that you are still blessed in many ways, even with all you have going on.
MY REPLY- looking back at the Weavers where I am officially on record not allowed to be—I think there the truths may hide—where our fallen angels survive—where fear rusts through pride—the place where heroes die—a carcass left due to another’s greed—yet in the shade grows another weed—merciless liar wears the scars well—yet YOU KNOW the shadows haunt you—I am grateful for the reminder from RTS that, even in the darkest hours of our lives, there are blessings to count, relationships to cherish and goodness to see.
—I say I am done and happy in the desert doing MY thing yet God always shares WHO is in control—
It is sad how someone can get uncomfortable and lash out—
and yet to be on the other end don’t feel so good—
the worst I lash— “tears” and emotional frustration moments when things don’t add up…this YHF..it shoulda never happened.
I do not like being stuck and this YHF has me “stuck”….
Im heading to see Sonny soon
He is being moved soon—
if its hospice than as POA bring him to his home and up security on both areas due to recent behind the scenes update I was given on the hikers-
odd world we live in-
So I’ve been reading down through the threads and when I got to this, I just stopped in my tracks:
“WantsToKnowTheTruth says DECEMBER 2, 2015 AT 12:00 PM
(snip)
The PROOF actually comes from Mr. David Turbyfill, the father of deceased Hotshot Travis Turbyfill.
He, himself, made an extended effort to obtain ALL of these ‘toxicology’ test results for his own son, Travis. It took him 15 months to finally ‘win’ and get his own copies… but he succeeded.”
Jaw. Dropped.
It took THE FATHER of one of the Hotshots FIFTEEN MONTHS to obtain the test results for his son??????
I find that something like astonishing.
Is that normal?
Is there something I am missing in regards to that?
———————-
On another note, I’ve been thinking back into my “slides” of the Deployment Site, which I spent the 2013 Holiday Season (and more) virtually crawling around via the photos. I haven’t gone back into my notes and maps and comments and such regarding that, so I’m writing off of my memory.
I was the one who advised Mr. Turbeyfill as to which of the shelters on the Deployment Site was most likely his son’s. Off the top of my head, I can’t remember what objects were around his shelter.
And, off the top of my head, I think the (only one) chainsaw that was located near a shelter was near Dustin Deford’s. But I’ll have to go back and check on that.
At the point I quit “citizen investigating” the Deployment Site, I did so for two reasons. First I was sick to death at looking at it in detail. Second, I really needed, and asked for, help identifying all the stuff that was photographed on it (being an arm-chair-quarterback ‘civilian”). And I wasn’t getting much help in response. There was all kinds of stuff strewed all over the site.
So I may go back and re-look at these photos. I can’t believe the site wasn’t even remotely adequately mapped in the SAIR. And I complained about that A LOT. But I”m also not surprised.
I agree with RTS somewhere downstream where he wrote that it wasn’t the chemicals found in Travis Turbeyfill that killed him, it was the uber-heated air and fire that killed him.
But I also agree with WTKTT that the apparent lack of throwing stuff AWAY that should have been thrown AWAY says something about deployment training. And I also agree that, if Marsh had TIME to run up to meet them before they died, they had TIME to run down to join him wherever he was, which MIGHT have been a safer place to aim for.
After writing all the above, I’m still mind-boggled that the father of one of these Hotshots had to spend FIFTEEN MONTHS getting the report on his son.
Reply to Marti Reed post on December 3, 2015 at 8:23 pm
>> Marti said…
>>
>> Jaw. Dropped.
>>
>> It took THE FATHER of one of the Hotshots FIFTEEN MONTHS to obtain
>> the test results for his son??????
>>
>> I find that something like astonishing.
>>
>> Is that normal?
>>
>> Is there something I am missing in regards to that?
What actually happened was this HUGE controversy when the ‘Arizona Republic’ ( AZCENTRAL ) and another ‘Gannett’ owned news outlets were refused access to ‘public records’ they were requesting shortly after the tragedy, and they ended up filing a Civil Law Suit to obtain them.
They were NEVER asking for any photographs or videos that that were already known to exist that would obvious be ‘disturbing’ to any family member.
There were MOSTLY after the ‘autopsy results’. which were already known to be in the possession of both the Yavapa County Medical Examiner’s Office AND in the possession of the Yavapai County Sheriff’s Office.
AZCENTRAL had already obtained a copy of what amounts to the ‘accident report’ that was already on file at YCSO. That ‘accident report admitted that a YCSO Sheriff had flown in Ranger 58 just before dark and taken both PHOTOS and VIDEOS of the deployment site as it was before the sun even set on June 30, 2013. ( To this day… perhaps only a handful of people have seen THOSE photos/videos even though they are known to exist ).
The YCSO ‘accident report’ ( public information, no question ) also revealed that the following morning, at dawn, the YCSO detectives did, in fact, use their PHARO 3D imaging system to document the deployment site. Few people have ever seen that, either.
But most importantly… the YCSO ‘accident report’ already admitted that copies of the initial ‘autopsy reports’ HAD been delivered to them from the Yavapai County ME Office and WERE in their possession.
So THAT is what AZCENTRAL really was ‘after’. Copies of the autopsy reports.
NOTE: Some initial ‘toxicology’ tests were most assuredly part of those ‘autopsy’ reports but SOME extented toxicology ( which WAS done on all of the deceased ) DOES take some time to process. I don’t think those ‘extended’ toxicology results were even available to the ME at the time AZCENTRAL was making these ‘public document requests’.
Well… of course…. it all hit the fan.
But the ‘autopsy reports’ got swallowed up in the controversy as it became all about the PHOTOS ( which AZCENTRAL kept insisting it wasn’t even all that interested in ).
But Yavapai County Attorney Sheila Polk basically said “no fucking way” was any media group going to get ANY of that ( photos OR autopsy reports ).
The Arizona Republic ( AZCENTRAL )
Article title: Republic, 12 News sue for Yarnell records
Published: Thu Sep 19, 2013 7:53 AM
http://www.azcentral.com/news/arizona/articles/20130916republic-news-sue-yarnell-records.html
This was the ‘official’ response to the filing of the suit…
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Yavapai County Sheriff Scott Mascher declined comment through a spokesman. County Attorney Sheila Polk said in an e-mail that she is fulfilling a “legal obligation to limit disclosure so as to avoid the infliction of substantial and irreparable private harm.” Polk previously issued a public letter saying the privacy interest of surviving family members trumps the public’s right to know, and that “absent a court order, these items will not be released.”
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NOTE: Mr. David Turbyfill ( father of deceased GM Hotshot Travis Turbyfill ) was quoted in this article about the lawsuits being filed by AZCENTRAL…
Also from the same article…
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David Turbyfill, whose son, Travis, was among those killed, said he understands that some families fear what may come out in the media, but he has many unanswered questions. He wants to know if fire commanders were negligent, if deployment shelters need improvement, if hotshots made mistakes.
“I have always thought: The more openness, the better,” said Turbyfill, a former volunteer firefighter who acknowledges his perspective is in the minority among survivor families.
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The ‘Gannett’ media organizations eventually dropped their suit and didn’t even try a separate ‘request’ for just the autopsy reports.
It all quieted down… Christmas 2013 came and went… but then in January of 2014 something happened that never got much attention.
An Arizona State Representative created a BILL ( law ) to be voted on that, despite any/all existing Arizona Open Records laws, would make ALL ‘autopsy photos and results’ PERMANENTLY off-limits except to a limited set of ‘officials’ ( in Arizona ) unless a SUPERIOR COURT Judge said they could have them.
That ‘Arizona State Representative’ who introduced THAT proposed legislation?
( Drum roll, please ).
State Representative Karen Fann, who represents Prescott.
See next ‘Reply’ to a link to an article about THAT nonsense.
And here is the LAW proposed by Karen Fann in January, 2014…
Notice that the same issue as surrounded the lawsuit is on Fann’s mind.
To her… it’s all about the PHOTOS and God forbid anyone should ever see them, but by wrapping the whole thing with the phrase ‘autopsy photos’ the actual ( WRITTEN ) ‘autopsy results’ were getting ‘implied’ as well.
The Arizona Capitol Times
Article Title: Following Yarnell deaths, bill would limit access to autopsy photos
Published: January 21, 2014 , 9:01 am ( Credit: Associated Press )
http://azcapitoltimes.com/news/2014/01/21/after-yarnell-hill-firefighter-deaths-az-bill-would-limit-access-to-autopsy-photos/
From the article…
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An Arizona lawmaker wants to ensure autopsy photos and videos can only be released with a Superior Court judge’s approval.
State Rep. Karen Fann, a Republican from Prescott, is proposing legislation this month that would have a judge review sensitive images such as photos and X-rays from autopsies before they are released.
“My bill does absolutely nothing to change First Amendment rights at all,” Fann told The Associated Press.
She said the bill stems from county medical examiners concerned about getting embroiled in legal action by anyone seeking the images. The issue became especially apparent this summer as news organizations reported on the Yarnell Hill fire that killed 19 firefighters.
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So no wonder David Turbyfill had trouble getting the results for his own son.
Too many families members were ‘freaking out’ that some PHOTOS might appear and they were already campaigning Karen Fann to “Do something! Pass a frickin’ LAW or something!”.
And Karen Fann was obliging them ( just as she would when discussions turned to using public momeny for a memorial ).
** THE LAW SAILED THROUGH THE ARIZONA HOUSE…
Representative Karen Fann ( Republican – Prescott ) DID actually introduced this new LAW about ‘autopsy’ evidence and it sailed through the Arizona House of Representatives…
FOX10 TV – Phoenix
Article Title: Arizona House OK limiting access to autopsy photos
http://www.fox10tv.com/story/24885222/arizona-house-ok-limiting-access-to-autopsy-photos
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PHOENIX (AP) –
The Arizona House of Representatives has APPROVED a bill that would ban the release of autopsy photos without a court order.
House Bill 2225 was sponsored by Rep. Karen Fann of Prescott. She proposed the bill after the Yavapai County Medical Examiner and the sheriff’s office refused to release photos of the autopsies of 19 firefighters killed in June fighting the Yarnell Hill fire.
Some news organizations sued but eventually dropped the case. An attorney who represents those organizations worked with Fann to craft the bill.
The House voted 55-1 on Tuesday to approve Fann’s bill. It now goes to the Senate for action.
Prosecutors, law enforcement, surviving loved ones, representatives of the estate of the deceased, and research universities would be permitted to obtain autopsy photos.
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Notice that the legislation that was VOTED on ( and passed ) actually DOES include ‘surviving loved ones’ in the short list of people who can ever have access to such material WITHOUT a ‘Court Order’… but Karen Fann is, in fact, now succeeding in putting a huge layer of red-tape on top of the process that didn’t previously exist under normal Arizona Open Records requests.
** IT IS NOW ARIZONA LAW
The ‘autopsy stuff’ bill that Representative Karen Fann ( Republican – Prescott ) introduced also ended up ‘sailing’ through the Arizona Senate, and it was signed into LAW by the Governor on 04/17/14 ( April 17, 2014 ).
Here’s the full 411 on the new Arizona LAW regarding ‘autopsy stuff’…. including copies of the final bill TEXT itself and what Karen Fann was actually able to get away with…
http://www.azleg.gov/DocumentsForBill.asp?Session_ID=112&Bill_Number=HB2225
**
** AZCENTRAL WAS NEVER ASKING FOR ‘AUTOPSY PHOTOS’..
Notice in the final BILL that representative Karen Fann ( Republican – Prescott ) was able to push into LAW ( Arizona House Bill HB2225 ), the whole issue had morphed into ‘autopsy photos’… when that is NEVER what the ‘Arizona Republic’ or Channel 12 was ever really interested in.
Their ORIGINAL request for information was quoted as…
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The Arizona Republic and 12 News have filed suit against the Yavapai County Sheriff’s and Medical Examiner’s offices over their refusal to release investigative records from the Yarnell Hill Fire tragedy that left 19 hotshots dead.
The two Gannett news organizations allege in a civil complaint filed Wednesday in Yavapai County Superior Court that diagrams, some photographs and other documents are public records under state law, and Arizona residents have a compelling interest in learning what led to the demise of the 19 Granite Mountain Hotshots nearly three months ago.
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Keyphrase: SOME photographs.
There is not one mention of them specifically requesting ‘autopsy photographs’.
The photos ( and videos ) that were known to have been taken by a YCSO Police Officer from Helicopter Ranger 58 on June 30, 2013 ( just before dark ) could NOT be considered ‘autopsy photos’… nor ( technically ) could the PHARO 3D images taken the next morning by detectives at the site.
But notice the specific mention of ‘diagrams’ and ‘other documents’ ( E.g. autopsy REPORTS ). Those requests for that important information just got swallowed up in the controversy as it morphed into being all about ‘autopsy photos’.
There actually still is no evidence that any actual ‘autopsy photos’ were ever even taken by the Medical Examiner… although that is, probably, likely.
But that’s not what AZCENTRAL was really asking for in the first place.
Their original request also said…
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David Bodney, attorney for the news organizations, emphasizes in the civil suit that the plaintiffs are seeking the records for news-gathering purposes to ensure the public has a full accounting of what happened. The plaintiffs are not seeking sensitive personal information regarding the firefighters.
Bodney alleges that Yavapai County officials engaged in “repeated stonewalling” and “have offered no legally viable justification for the continued concealment of records.”
The lawsuit seeks a court-ordered release of the documents or a private judicial inspection of records to determine which should be made public.
According to portions of the sheriff’s report that were made public, deputies secured the accident scene, gathered evidence, made videos, took photographs and drew diagrams. The sheriff also received results of autopsies conducted by the Maricopa County Medical Examiner.
Arizona law mandates that public records be open to inspection during business hours. The state Supreme Court has defined a public record as any document “or other material” created or used by a public agency, with certain statutory exemptions.
On July 24, The Republic requested all of the sheriff’s investigative records and images while recognizing that some pictures could be withheld due to extreme sensitivity for survivors of the fallen firefighters.
On Aug. 26, Polk issued a letter declaring that all requested records and images were “not appropriate for public disclosure” and would not be released. Although the law “favors disclosure,” Polk wrote, records are being withheld because “privacy concerns of the firefighters’ families outweigh the public’s interest.”
The Republic and 12 News said in the filing they were not seeking any personal information, including Social Security numbers, birth dates, pre-existing medical conditions or photographs of human remains.
Dan Barr, an attorney for the First Amendment Coalition of Arizona, which advocates for freedom of the press, said Polk appears to have insulated herself from a political backlash that might result from families upset by the release of public records.
Barr said diagrams, evidence records and other materials may be important to an accident analysis.
“The families do not have a privacy interest to protect information from coming out about this fire,” he added.
—————————————————————————-
Marti,
I want you to quit beating yourself up for “being an arm-chair-quarterback civilian.”
That is a good thing and just one of the many reasons why we need and appreciate you and your many talents on this thread.
It’s just that you and I both get into trouble here when we think we know what is going on in the wildland firefighting world of today We are both relatively clueless. But…we can still have opinions and thanks to this blog, we can even post them…right?
So…chin up! .
We agree Gary. Sonny says hi and I will bring him home in the morning vs Hospice/rehab.
Praise the Good Lord!
OK…here is a quick reminder for everyone in the interest of full public disclosure. I said some months ago that I would publish the transcript of Marsh vs. Collura after Joy’s court order expired even though she can’t be held accountable for my actions.
According to my calculations, that will occur on or about January 2, 2016. I am going to do this because I believe some of the things discussed during this hearing are relevant to gaining a full understanding of this tragic event and it’s aftermath.
Plus…if people realize there will eventually be accountability for their actions…they might stop abusing the tragic situation to advance their own personal agendas. I am going to publish the transcript on my wildland firefighter web site since I and I alone am responsible for the content published there and because it makes a good bulletin board.
Which brings up the main point of this post. I will appreciate it if someone, or multiple someone’s who have the toxicology reports from the GMIHC autopsies will email them to me at
[email protected]
I will post them on my website as well…because the public has a right to know. That is how our country works best.
To quote Sonny (I think), “The world was asked to grieve for the Granite Mountain Hotshots and we did.” And now I say because we did, their memory belongs to the world, not just a select few. That is how it works.
Please don’t make me go to all of the time and trouble to get my own copies, you will be needlessly cutting into my personal time and you will only be delaying the inevitable. So…give them up…please.
Or if your copies of the toxicology reports are not in a digital format, please send them to me at;
Gary Olson
2700 S. Woodlands Village Blvd
Ste. 300-287
Flagstaff, Arizona 86001-7114
Thank you for your attention in this matter, I look forward to hearing from you at your earliest convenience.
Gary L. Olson
OK, here is a quote from the Mayo Clinic.
“Ethanol acts on cerebral functions as a depressant similar to general anesthetics. This depression causes most of the typical symptoms such as impaired thought, clouded judgment, and changed behavior. As the level of alcohol increases, the degree of impairment becomes progressively increased.”
And I repeat, “This depression causes most of the typical symptoms such as impaired thought, clouded judgment, and changed behavior.”
Dulled senses? Impaired thought? Clouded judgment?
“Sure, WTF, let’s just go, I’m tired of sitting up here doing nothing” “Let’s just get out of here. We’ve done this before, and gotten away with it, so let’s just go …”
Add in the lack of quality sleep and all of those get magnified. I can see that happening, the whole WTF part- tired, possible hung over, hot, asses kicked most of the day,pressure from overhead. Screw it, let’s just go
RTS said “The NWCG Fire Shelter training video has this to say about the alleged value of fire shelters: “Since the mid-1970’s, fire shelters are responsible for saving hundreds of lives and preventing hundreds of serious burn injuries …: REALLY? That may be so to SOME degree, however, MANY of those fire shelter deployments were designated as ‘precautionary’ or not needed at all, because the WFF would have survived WITHOUT the fire shelters, e.g. when the fuels and tool handles in their now DEPLOYMENT ZONE did NOT even burn! This is what’s known as the False Cause Fallacy when an argument mistakenly attempt to establish a causal connection.”
I haven’t agree with anything more since this thread started. That statement has always driven me crazy with frustration and just about the most ridiculous thing anybody could possibly say on the subject other than the fact that wildland firefighters need bigger, better, heavier or more improved fire shelters.
As I have said from the beginning, firefighters need to stop working above uncontrolled wildfires or the case of the GMIHC getting drunk (or getting drunk and then being in various degrees of not being drunk but being severely hung over and operating far from their highest level of proficiency, how much fast could they have made it down that chute if they had not been drunk/hung over?) and hiking in front of one. See the Loop, Battlement Creek, South Canyon and Yarnell Hill, which are the only fires I know pretty well but there are many, many more.
I hated the fire shelters from the first moment I saw it until the last time I saw one and I never knew anyone who believed in it until the NWCG spent so much time and money on a public relations campaign to sell a crock of shit to gullible people.
OK…maybe as a very last resort after you have done everything you were supposed to do and what made common sense and if you do that, you will never need one. As I have said before, we were pushed the envelope at every opportunity and I never even thought that I might have to use one…one time.
Figures don’t lie, BUT LIARS FIGURE! They have save HUNDREDS of lives. Does anybody who stops to think about that statement for one second believe it? If fire shelters would never have been invented, does anybody believe there would have been hundreds of deaths over the past several years? RIDICULOUS!
Has there been HUNDREDS or even dozens of deaths in Canada? Even after you factor in the per-capita differences? NO!
If the NWCG would lie about those numbers, they will lie about everything else.
Gary,
AGREED. Thank you.
When I was on the 1985 Butte Fire on the Salmon NF in Idaho, there was a MASS fire shelter deployment of about 70 WFF. It was absolutely ridiculous and totally unnecessary because the grass, Tin Cup Hill sign, and tool handles at the Carson HS Deployment Site NEVER burned.
In addition, I overheard one of the alleged ‘Investigators’ talking on the phone one day to a superior. This alleged ‘Investigator’ told his superior:(paraphrasing here) ‘There were a lot of f**k ups on this fire, but we’re going to make sure the report says that fire shelter training and their WFF supervisors made good decisions to deploy fire shelters and that’s what saved their lives.’
AND SO BEGAN ‘THE FIRE SHELTER MOVEMENT.’
The grass didn’t burn? Hahahaha! Dodged a real bullet there…
I was CRWB trainee once and we were ordered to an identified safety zone. I didn’t like it and we marched back to the bus up on the main road. Upon return the next morning the ‘safety zone’ was burnt to the ground. I wouldn’t have felt comfortable deploying my shelter there. Assholes.
Oh and that’s the fire I told them was likely to escape on our division at the end of shift and they didn’t care. Unstaffed at night. Mid-morning the next day was when we retreated to this ‘safety zone’ and ended up making the right call not to stay there. An hour later the fire licked up and over the fuckin continental divide. IMT proudly proclaimed that we were the number 1 priority fire in the country at the next morning briefing. Good job. Way to go. We’re number one! Assholes…
Woodsman
The Salmon Fire The Safety zone was in a huge Logged Cut Block.
Nothing was in it severial Acers Standing in the Middle with even 200 People there was a buffer of over 300 feet in any direction there was grass but not that much.
IT WAS A BOMB PROOF SZ.
A couple of overhead panicked and ordered the deployment when it was not necessary. Severial IC’s and teams on review in R4 were quite adamant that there was absolutely no reason to deploy. But it is still used as an example of the Fire Shelters worth. It was actually Laughable by many R4 FF who were on the Fire.
Evidently RTS as well.
It was long discussed by Many in R4 who knew the Facts. Stupid and unnecessary.
We could discuss this particular fire and the fire shelter implications for hours.
One finding in the Butte Fire Shelter Deployment ‘Investigation’ witness statements was that there were at least two (2) Overhead/Supervisors that admitted to this particular incident being their SECOND and THIRD fire shelter deployments; one a Crew Boss and one a Strike Team Leader.
The Crew Boss wanted fire shelters designed so that Crew Overhead had small windows on their fire shelters so they could move around checking on their WFF’s without actually having to get out of their shelters.
facepalm……………………………………..
there are no words……………..just………
facepalm……………………………………..
“Butte Fire Shelter Deployment”
via WildlanFireLLC on YouTube
co-starring Fred Schoeffler and Roy Hall
https://youtu.be/2DFggibCDbs
“Published on Apr 23, 2014
On August 29th 1985 seventy three firefighters deployed their fire shelters on the Butte fire in Idaho.”
On behalf of us “civilians” who are, honestly, trying to make sense of this whole “fire shelter” controversy:
Did you, RTS, at the time, think the fire shelter deployment was unnecessary? Or did you, at the time think it was, and have, since then, changed your mind?
I’m really sincere in asking about this. I’d really appreciate your more detailed comments about this, as long as it’s being hinted to here.
To be honest, I do agree that the whole thing of, mentally, “relying” on fire shelters as a rationale for doing things that shouldn’t be done is a road increasingly leading into FAIL
Even though I respect (partially) Turbyfill’s attempt to get the PowersThatBe to evolve those shelters.
Since this was brought up here, (in bits and pieces) I’d (as a civilian) really appreciate a bit more of a detailed description of how you viewed (at the time) and view (now) this deployment.
And I’m so glad you have decided to become more active here. Seriously.
Namaste.
And I’m also truly thankful that “Our Counselor” isn’t here to derail these conversations.
Marti,
YES and NO to your question “Did you, RTS, at the time, think the fire shelter deployment was unnecessary? Or did you, at the time think it was, and have, since then, changed your mind?”
There were actually three separate fire shelter deployment locations – Tin Cup Hill (Carson HS) and to the West where the two Type 2 Crews – the Jemez Eagles (NM) and Flame-n-Go (UT Inmates) sheltered up close to each other yet separately.
First off, the HUGE CLEAR CUT near Drop Point 29 was always the primary Safety Zone for the Payson and Flagstaff Hot Shots, and these Crews suggested to all other Resources, including Overhead, that this should be the primary Safety Zone. They were ignored and rebuffed.
YES, the fire shelter deployment was ABSOLUTELY UNNECESSARY for the Carson HS in the large ‘Safety Zone’ on Tin Cup Hill. It was large enough (400′ diameter) to move around in it to avoid advancing flame lengths.
And for the other two Type 2 Crews, their fire shelter deployments were most likely NECESSARY as they more-or-less allowed the fire to sneak up on them by not following the WFF Rules. Morons!
Their RH trigger point, for several days had been “either 4:00 [PM] or 20% [RH], whichever comes first.” The Payson and Flagstaff HS Crews hit 20% RH at 1:30 PM that day and pulled out to the clear cut, their primary Safety Zone. They notified the Carson HS on NUMEROUS occasions to come down into the Clear Cut SZ, however, what they heard instead over the radio was: “we’re improving our SZ, … we’re removing our shelters, … we’re deploying our shelter, … deploy, deploy, deploy.” They were within about 15 minutes hike downhill to the clear cut SZ, they could be seen working above them. The Carson HS Supt. never passed on the warning to the Jemez Eagles or to the Flame-n-Go Crew nor did they acknowledge the warnings Payson and Flagstaff HS were passing on.
Even the Overhead (DIVS, STLC, and others) ignored their warnings and told them to get back to work. They had been heli-torching down below to the south all day long (as the preheated air advected north under a southwest wind). At around 4:00 PM, three large columns developed, then turned into one very large column, and ‘The Rhino’ charged up the hill with plenty of warning as it had for several days prior. The Crews were to then fire out the unburned line and “it would all come together like a block burn and we could go home” according to the morning briefing. Yeah, right!
The Payson and Flagstaff HS Superintendents gave these Crews and Overhead plenty of warnings over the radio regarding the approaching fire from down below.
The ground was literally SHAKING and the flame lengths were in excess of 1000′ – ripping trees out of the ground as ‘The Rhino’ fire came up the hill toward them. The Payson Supt. says ‘200’ flame lengths’ in the Butte Shelter video and later admitted to making that all up because he didn’t want WFF to get the idea that the fire shelters performed under those conditions. That was the whole goal of the video, to promote fire shelters, because they were supposed to only work in light, flashy fuels and NOT big timber as on the Butte Fire.
This is a MUCH BETTER video to watch instead of the Butte Fire Shelter one. It’s titled ‘Look Up, Look Down, Look Around.” The Butte Fire Shelter Deployment video was the genesis of ‘The Fire Shelter Movement.’
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EUP4lrK1dUw
Marti,
And I’m patiently waiting for TWO answers: (1) your CDF electrical system link and (2) my email to you regarding Prescott college when you were a young lass.
ha ha ha ha
Marti emails?
hee hee
I am still awaiting one from the Summer 2015
to give her much credit…FULL PLATE…MOVING…FAMILY LOSS…etc…
Popping pocorn for our campfire here….
smiles
Gotcha both RTS and Joy.
Spent the whole last day and a half trying to figure out how to enroll in ACA, given my Diabetes circumstances.
Something I need to do SOON.
(After being pushed onto Medicaid the past year and a half, and then my my mom dying in the middle of that, and, therefore, me inheriting the ESTATE, altho all the legalities of that are still unfinished and have to be done before the 31st of December).
Yikes complexities.
So I’ll check emails. eventually.
Namaste to both of you!
Copy. Thinking. Will be thinking more tomorrow. I’m braindead at the moment (see below).
Thanks, RTS!!
I should have said “see above.” Crazy threads. I never know where anything is going to land.
Marti,
You have to think about thinking more tomorrow ….
Reply to Robert the Second (RTS) post on December 1, 2015 at 1:12 pm
>> RTS said…
>>
>> WTKTT,
>>
>> The autopsy and toxicology process took place on July 2, 2013, in Maricopa
>> County because the Yavapai County Medical Examiners were obviously
>> overwhelmed.
>>
>> Yes, there were ‘gasoline products’ both in their brains and/or lungs in ALL of them.
>>
>> Some of these products, benzene for example, are also the result of natural
>> phenomenon, like “forest fires” according to the relevant research.
>>
>> Basically, the three most common combustion products found in WFF fatality
>> toxicology reports are:
>>
>> BENZENE
>> TOLUENE
>> XYLENE (PVC)
>>
>> And no doubt, all the other crap they had close by them , off-gassed some
>> of these toxins as well, including the adhesive in their fire shelters, based
>> on former (MTDC) Missoula Technology Development Center reports and research.
Thank you RTS.
That matches what Mr. David Turbyfill has already reported about his own son’s toxicology report.
But since you seem to have had more than just a ‘passing glance’ at ALL of the Toxicology reports… what about the DRUG and ALCOHOL testing results… which were MANDATORY?
Were ANY of those guys DRUNK or HIGH when they died?
Examples….
– 0.08 percent BAL ( Blood Alcohol Level ) is ‘legally drunk’ in pretty much every State in the Union, including Arizona.
– Any trace of meds like amphetamines… or steroids?
– Any THC traces? ( weed ).
– Eric Marsh was still recovering from a bad shoulder injury in a biking accident. Any traces of painkillers like Oxycontin, others? If so… what concentrations?
WTKTT,
Gary posted: “I believe based on the stories that I have heard that a very high percentage of the Granite Mountain Interagency Hotshot Crew were still drunk when they went on the line on the Yarnell Hill Fire and furthermore, I believe their physical and mental condition due to their alcohol consumption was a major contributing factor in their deaths.
I believe the toxicology reports when and if they are ever released will support this theory.”
Robert the Second says
December 2, 2015 at 9:11 pm
Gary, The toxicology reports when they are ever released will support this theory
Well..there it is then. This is the tragedy that just keeps getting worse and worse.
Who would have ever thought that we would be discussing this kind of thing after two years?
Did the people who have been sitting on this for so long think it would stay a secret forever?
We can still mourn the loss of everyone on the crew in spite of what role they played in this event. But we should not be expected to mourn them under false pretensions, or lies, or cover-ups.
How very sad.
Police facts— when you stop drinking you lose .01% Alcohol from the Blood per hour.
BAC. At 0600 depending on how drunk some were they would have lost
.04% BAC from bar closing at 2 AM so those that were drinking till then and reporting for duty would be considered under the influence at 0600 Maybe not .08 or maybe so, and a Major hang over by the Time they hit the fire line or more depending on how drunk they got that night??????
No matter what you do the BAC only reduces at the .01% per hour.
You can not increase it by sweating it out it is in your blood thru the stomach. our filtration system dose the rest thru blood flow.
Some one at say .16% BAC would take 16 hours to reduce the Alcohol to 0% 9 Hours to be below .08 which is the DUI level.
Yikes! San Bernardino!
I spent a bunch of time “there” yesterday reading about the whole WUI thing.
I guess what’s going on right now there might be comparable to Initial Attack on a quickly expanding wildfire in the Wildland Urban Interface?
Because it’s pretty crazy there right now.
Direct quote from the San Bernadino FBI District Chief at the press conference held just a few moments agi…
“Any good investigator knows that you have to GO where the evidence LEADS you… and not try to make the evidence fit any particular narrative. This story will be told… and it will be told by the EVIDENCE we assemble… ALL of it… and in order to do it RIGHT… you have to remember it’s a marathon and not a sprint. Next question.”
Yes. He’s really good. I think they are handling this incredibly well.
Namaste to San Bernardino!
PS KTLA has and is covering this, relentlessly, live, and really, really well:
http://ktla.com/2015/12/02/authorities-respond-to-20-victim-shooting-incident-in-san-bernardino-fire-dept/
They keep talking about an “abundance of caution” in this, essentially, seriously dangerous, Initial Attack.
The handling of this, and KTLA’s coverage of this is, imho, outstanding. Kudos!
They just broke until 10 PM PT.
OK They’re back broadcasting. And very well done. Talking about the FBI.
Speaking of Coroner and Toxicology reports since that is being brought up.
WTKTT could you bring up the info that Dave Turbyfill stated way down on the Report on his son.
Cant find it.
Called an old Friend of mine whose Son was on the SAIT investigation on the Yarnell Fire.
He just got back to me with some disturbing news.
The SAIT never had or got the Coroners report or any Toxicology reports.
WTF is going on here????????????
The County should have released them to the Team and the Public. Delete the Pictures and release the report.
Just for reference Federal, State, and County/City Employees in any Accident or death are required to have a complete Toxicology report on blood content. Drugs, Alcohol Etc.
Those results are there they should be available. Hat this gone to trial those reports would have been available. The Lawyers had to have copies. They should be available under freedom of information Act. There may in fact be some critical information never released to the public.
The information on location of bodies amount of burns, did they die inside or outside Shelters.
Were the Shelters compromised by the Chain Saw Gas explosions? The lessons learned includes a lot of secondary information about the deployment site the Shelters they can tell by extent of burns if some were in their shelters or never made the Shelters.
Here again we have a lack of investigation by the SAIT what did they not want to know or have released?????
I posted this yesterday, so bringing this up out of the weeds.
Robert the Secondsays
DECEMBER 1, 2015 AT 1:12 PM
WTKTT,
The autopsy and toxicology process took place on July 2, 2013, in Maricopa County because the Yavapai County Medical Examiners were obviously overwhelmed.
Yes, there were ‘gasoline products’ both in their brains and/or lungs in ALL of them. Some of these products, benzene for example, are also the result of natural phenomenon, like “forest fires” according to the relevant research.
Basically, the three most common combustion products found in WFF fatality toxicology reports are:
BENZENE
TOLUENE
XYLENE (PVC)
And no doubt, all the other crap they had close by them , off-gassed some of these toxins as well, including the adhesive in their fire shelters, based on former (MTDC) Missoula Technology Development Center reports and research.
NO SHIT … HYDROGEN CYANIDE, a component of the ADHESIVES used in the shelter, was found in SOME tests, however, the researchers were not clear on whether or not they were more closely associated with the nearby combustible toxins in the vehicles. This is covered in some detail in Appendix B – Characterizing Gases Generated in Vehicles and Fire Shelters.
http://www.fs.fed.us/t-d/pubs/htmlpubs/htm97512817/
This is a link for a very comprehensive MTDC study researching all types of flammable products and protective products including WFF PPE and fire shelters. The title of the September 1997 report is: ‘Surviving Fire Entrapments Comparing Conditions Inside Vehicles and Fire Shelters.’
Richard Mangan – Program Leader, USDA Forest Service
Technology and Development Program; Missoula, Montana
7E62P87-Vehicle Entrapment; 9751-2817-MTDC
Vehicles were extensively studied and found to contain high levels of deadly compounds. No shit Sherlock!
So then, it seems pretty obvious to me that we need to make our fire shelters and other protective devices out of the video camera housing material, similar to the ‘black box’ material for aircraft recording devices. Then again, maybe that’s NOT such a good idea, because then WFF may rely on them instead of following the Basic WFF Rules.
As the saying goes: If you deploy a fire shelter, someone f**ked up
Thank you… RTS. It wasn’t ‘lost in the weeds’. I definitely saw that and thank you for that. See below where my own original post from back in the previous Chapter (16) is also reproduced. David Turbyfill ( Travis Turbyfill’s father ) told the story of what HIS son’s toxicology report showed ‘in his own words’ on his own public Facebook page.
The ‘poisonous adhesives’ in the fire shelters themselves is an ongoing issue and by all rights, we should be hearing a LOT more about that.
You and I ( and a shitload of other taxpayers ) are the ones PAYING for these fucking things. I want them to DO IT RIGHT or NOT DO IT AT ALL.
Reply to Bob Powers post on December 2, 2015 at 10:15 am
>> Bob Powers said…
>>
>> Speaking of Coroner and Toxicology reports since that is being brought up.
>> WTKTT could you bring up the info that Dave Turbyfill stated way down
>> on the Report on his son. Cant find it.
Mr. David Turbyfill first spoke publicly about his own son Travis’ autopsy AND toxicology reports ( and how even HE had to FIGHT to obtain them ) on his own PUBLIC ‘Yarnell Hill Fire Realities’ Faceook page.
The full ‘summary’ that I posted about what Mr. Turbyfill said publicly was back in the previous chapter and this link takes you directly to that original ‘story’…
http://www.investigativemedia.com/yarnell-hill-fire-chapter-xvi/#comment-303698
Highlights from the link above…
===============================================================================================
Reply to Gary Olson post on August 2, 2015 at 7:13 pm
>> Gary Olson said…
>>
>> And now I can even add, “especially if that same person demonstrated
>> such an extreme lack of good judgment he got the entire crew sent home
>> because he was in an assignment as an acting squad boss in charge of
>> a significant portion of his crew drinking alcohol and smoking dope on the
>> fire line which included the saw team.”
I was actually just about to post something related to this that I thought I had already posted but just recently realized it never made it to the forum.
Back in the last Chapter ( XV / 15 ) when this ‘incident’ involving Eric Marsh was being discussed… there was some back-and-forth regarding the autopsy reports for all the deceased Granite Mountain Hotshots and whether or not they included full toxicology panels, including standard drug testing.
The ASSUMPTION was that standard toxicology/drug tests HAD been done, since even the Medical Examiner’s Office said that is STANDARD procedure… and there is also evidence that some ‘extended’ toxicology was also performed that actually took a few months to complete.
Well… since that discussion… I came across PROOF that those ‘extended’ toxicology tests WERE performed for ALL of the Granite Mountain Hotshots and they tested for just about everything drug and/or chemical under the sun.
The PROOF actually comes from Mr. David Turbyfill, the father of deceased Hotshot Travis Turbyfill.
He, himself, made an extended effort to obtain ALL of these ‘toxicology’ test results for his own son, Travis. It took him 15 months to finally ‘win’ and get his own copies… but he succeeded.
And then he TALKED about those toxicology results on a PUBLIC Facebook page of his.
David Turbyfill has, for a long time now, had a special Facebook page called “Yarnell Fire Realities”.
It is here…
https://www.facebook.com/YarnellFireRealities
He referenced the ‘autopsy’ and ‘toxicology’ report(s) he finally received copies of several times on this Facebook page so I’ll just take those one by one.
Here is the Facebook Comment where David Turbyfill first says he finally received the autopsy results he had been trying for 15 months to obtain.
It’s his ‘list’ item number 9 in this comment he posted in December, 2014…
———————————————————————————
Comment by Yarnell Fire Realities ( David Turbyfill )
Posted December 27, 2014 ·
Goodbye 2014 Hello 2015
As we close in on saying goodbye to 2014 I thought I would share a few thoughts. I’ve been pretty quiet on here the past
several months,
1. Found and tested, and developed a demonstration video of a proposed materials for fire shelter.
2. Met with Congressional Representative Paul Gosar, concerning fire shelters.
3. Submitted materials to the US Forest Service, for initial testing.
4. I’ve been to multiple national memorials,
5. We have seen the first year anniversary of losing the Granite Mountain Crew.
6. US Forest Service has asked for additional materials, for third-party testing, we were informed that our materials would be sample #12, my lucky number.
7. I’m delighted to think that there is at least some possibility of changes coming to the existing fire shelter, that there are at least 11 good ideas for these changes.
8. Absolutely disappointed by the actions of our community leaders, and their decision to disband the Wildland division in Prescott.
9. After more than 15 months of desperately trying to find the mechanics of what happened to my son, I had finally received a copy of his autopsy.
So as we go into 2015 and look ahead to the 2015 fire season, I would hope to have an open dialogue with the wildland fire community, and invite all to comment so if you are former or active fire or know somebody who is please invite them to this page.
Well wishes
David Turbyfill
————————————————————————-
The next DAY ( December 28, 2014 ), Mr. Turbyfill mentions some of the CONTENT of the TOXICOLOGY results and the concentrations of certain compounds and elements that were found in blood and tissue samples via the ‘extended’ testing…
————————————————————————-
Comment by Yarnell Fire Realities ( David Turbyfill )
Posted December 28, 2014 at 5:58 pm
…additionally carbon monoxide only being one. Travis’s autopsy showed only a small presence of CO, but found these, Benzene, Toluene and Xylene was present in his lungs, bloodstream, and brain tissue.
————————————————————————-
Then again, on that same day ( December 28, 2014 ), Mr. Turbyfill was continuing an exchange on his Facebook page with someone named ‘Amy Rucker’… and he again mentions things that he has ‘learned’ from the autopsy and toxicology results HE now has.
And in this next exchange, he makes a rather startling claim.
He appears to be saying that the autopsy and toxicology results for Travis indicate that some of the fatal inhalations were from things the Granite Mountain Hotshots were carrying WITH them in their packs.
Remember that it has been proven with photographic evidence that MANY of the Granite Mountain Hotshots did NOT ‘throw their packs clear of the deployment area’ as they were (supposedly) trained to do. Indeed… some of them deployed right NEXT to their packs.
————————————————–
Comment by Yarnell Fire Realities ( David Turbyfill )
Posted December 28, 2014
So to Amy Rucker… I see that you work as a Public Information Specialist at United States Wildland Fire Aviation, before you write a comment you should check into the issue before making broad statements such as yours.
So to your point about Fire Shelter
Survivability.
The Issue has not been beat to death. The whole point of a Fire Shelter is to create a LOWER TEMPERATURE
SPACE for the firefighter.
Since this has been such a “Sensitve” subject for most concerned, none of the parties that should have the Autopises, do NOT have them. So consequently I seem to be the only one concerned that does.
I know exactly the toxicins Travis inhaled and how conscious Travis was when he died.
Travis perished because of the Items that he and the Crew carried with them.
Had he and the others had a better shelter that could with stand Direct Thermal Contact the out come may have been different.
In closing I leave you with this…..a quote from 2004…
“Safety is a core value of the firefighting community, and it is non-negotiable.
To continue to use these contract large airtankers when no mechanism exists to guarantee their airworthiness presents an unacceptable level of risk to the aviators, the firefighters on the ground and the communities we serve.”
2004 USFS Chief Dale Bosworth
—————————————————————–
That’s pretty much the last mention Mr. Turbyfill makes on his PUBLIC Facebook page of what is in the toxicology report(s) he received.
===============================================================================================
>> Bob Powers also said…
>>
>> Called an old Friend of mine whose Son was on the SAIT investigation
>> on the Yarnell Fire. He just got back to me with some disturbing news.
>> The SAIT never had or got the Coroners report or any Toxicology reports.
>> WTF is going on here????????????
A coordinated attempt ( using taxpayer dollars ) to prevent a proper investigation of a terrible accident in an equally fully-taxpayer funded workplace.
The STORY of how this incident was NOT investigated is now more sordid than the circumstances leading to the deaths themselves.
>> Bob Powers also said…
>>
>> The County should have released them to the Team and the Public. Delete
>> the Pictures and release the report.
But first they have to even ASK for them.
They ( Jim Karels, Mike Dudley, and the rest of the SAIT people ) didn’t WANT to see them.
They had already decided early on what ‘the story’ was going to be and they didn’t want any FACTS intruding on that.
>> Bob Powers also said…
>>
>> Just for reference Federal, State, and County/City Employees in any
>> Accident or death are required to have a complete Toxicology report
>> on blood content. Drugs, Alcohol Etc.
Absolutely correct. And those tests WERE performed on ALL of the deceased Granite Mountain Hotshots. There is no doubt about that.
>> Bob Powers also said…
>>
>> Those results are there they should be available.
They always have been… to anyone who cared enough to WANT to see theml
>> Bob Powers also said…
>>
>> Had this gone to trial those reports would have been available.
>> The Lawyers had to have copies.
You can bet on that.
>> Bob Powers also said…
>>
>> They should be available under freedom of information Act.
Yes… but not even those ‘forms’ are necessary. They should also be freely obtainable with a simpler Arizona Open Records request.
>> Bob Powers also said…
>>
>> There may in fact be some critical information never released to the public.
Yep.
>> Bob Powers also said…
>>
>> The information on location of bodies amount of burns, did they die
>> inside or outside Shelters. Were the Shelters compromised by the
>> Chain Saw Gas explosions? The lessons learned includes a lot
>> of secondary information about the deployment site the Shelters
>> they can tell by extent of burns if some were in their shelters or never
>> made the Shelters.
I’m not sure most of that ( regarding Shelters ) was something the Medical Examiner was required to even take a look at. His focus is ( and rightly so ) the victims and what caused them to die. The Medical Examiner’s office is not an ‘investigative’ body.
Someone had to decide to actually INVESTIGATE this incident to discover all the other things you mention regarding the Shelters.
No one ever did ( actually investigate ) this incident. Not really.
>> Bob Powers also said…
>>
>> Here again we have a lack of investigation by the SAIT what did they
>> not want to know or have released?????
The TRUTH.
And they have now spent ( and continue to spend ) a SHITLOAD of taxpayer dollars trying to fulfill their own misguided personal agenda(s).
You all definitely want to peruse the NWCG MTDC Report link I posted above. There’s a lot of good information in there.
The FIRE and the Superheated Air and Thermal Burns killed these men. It was NOT because of their fire packs and gear stacked near them or any minor amount of off-gassing from their gear. And it was NOT because of the Fire Shelter qualities.
Knowing, understanding, and following the Basic WFF Rules works every time. The Fire Shelters are NOT the answer!
RTS,
“Knowing, understanding, and following the Basic WFF Rules works every time. The Fire Shelters are NOT the answer!”
For the love of everything holy, THANK YOU for saying that!
You have to be a wildand firefighter and hump that bastard around with you for hours, days, weeks, and years to fully appreciate what you’re saying here. The first ones were a little cumbersome and the latest ones are larger and heavier. The last time I inspected it, it didn’t look the greatest as it’s hauled all over the damn place, leaned against, thrown in and out of the truck, engine, UTV, etc. It takes a beating even though it’s in a plastic reinforced ‘container’ inside the bag, inside my cordura pouch. Wildland is a rough world. I don’t know if I can take a larger and heavier one.
That being said, I do have it with me and respect it for what it is…an ABSOLUTE LAST RESORT!
My wife and kids compete in cross country races. I cheer them on. When someone asks me why I am not entered in the race, I tell them I only run if I’m being chased by a bear or fire or something.
I now humbly submit myself to the wrath of the shelter updaters for my tongue lashing……
Woodsman
Woodsman,
Thanks you so much for this statement regarding your fire shelter: “I do have it with me and respect it for what it is…an ABSOLUTE LAST RESORT!”
I carry one ONLY because I am REQUIRED to carry one. I am an ‘Improved Fire Shelter’ denier. I am totally opposed to designing new and improved fire shelters. The efforts need to be on TRAINING our WFF on the Basics, The WFF Rules!
The NWCG Fire Shelter training video has this to say about the a;eged value of fire shelters: “Since the mid-1970’s, fire shelters are responsible for saving hundreds of lives and preventing hundreds of serious burn injuries …: REALLY? That may be so to SOME degree, however, MANY of those fire shelter deployments were designated as ‘precautionary’ or not needed at all, because the WFF would have survived WITHOUT the fire shelters, e.g. when the fuels and tool handles in their now DEPLOYMENT ZONE did NOT even burn! This is what’s known as the False Cause Fallacy when an argument mistakenly attempt to establish a causal connection.
Remember, a SAFETY ZONE is somewhere a WFF seeks refuge from the fire where they do NOT deploy a fire shelter. And many of these alleged fire shelter deployments occurred in alleged Safety Zones, nullifying it as a Safety Zone. Once this happens it becomes a Deployment Zone. Like Woodsman, I despise the term Deployment Zone in training sessions and /or briefings.
So that being said, I’m here to tell you that KNOWING, UNDERSTANDING, AND FOLLOWING THE WFF RULES, WHICH INCLUDES RECOGNIZING AND MITIGATING ANY WATCH OUT SITUATIONS, IS RESPONSIBLE FOR SAVING TENS OF THOUSANDS OF WFF LIVES EACH AND EVERY YEAR!
T
Those men tragically died a very painful death that day. The ONLY MANUFACTURED safety device that would/could have saved them at their chosen ‘Deployment Site’ was a shipping container (or two) made of BLACK BOX MATERIAL that houses the aircraft flight data and cockpit voice recorders.
http://natgeotv.com/uk/air-crash-investigation/black-box
RTS:
Preach it, Brother! Uncle! Grandfather…whatever the hell you are! You know of which you speak! LISTEN TO HIM, all you wildland ff’s out there in cyberworld. LISTEN TO WHAT RTS IS TELLING YOU!!! READ THE WORDS! PRINT IT OUT AND LAMINATE IT! MAKE COPIES! HAND EM OUT TO ALL YOUR BUDDIES!! Heed those words and you will live.
I don’t really know when ‘Deployment Zone’ showed up but to me it can be a self-fulfilling prophecy, if you know what I mean. Most people on this site are smarter than me and I’m ok with that. I know what I know and a new Super duper fire shelter can not make up for a situation where multiple basic wildland firefighting rules are broken. It will catch up to you. A fire shelter is NOT a free pass to save your rear due to bad decision making. THAT is MY fact of MY wff life.
Listen to your qualified elders!
Woodsman
RTS and Woodsman,
You guys are right on!!
Man…if this was the 60-70’s…a poster of RTS would be hanging in my room next to the Hardy Boys and Partridge Family David Cassidy and Monkees Davey Jones…that was so well said and truly you are now to me the coolest…
I find the numismatic and gun forums have the straight news on San Bernardino event…they found pipe bombs..remote control cars…all three are from Qatar.. ItIt was premeditated…
So Sonny has surgery in a few hours… I stayed by his side all day and will remain here in ICU room until he comes back in…upon his request.
I’m at filibertos with my husband figuring out home stuff because Sonny just was told he can never live alone and I know I can get him rolling again…just takes obedience and new routine…
I’m tired but I had to say right on rts
Just for the record…I never hung idol posters up in my life not
even fella Galen Gering when his lady sent me one long ago…ain’t my style…now taxidermy my desert finds is more like it..I have a drunk jackrabbit holding a guineas stout leaning on a dead cholla..I have a transgender deer…and list goes on like a buck tooth rabbit and a squirrel riding a Mojave…but not a poster child except my husband thinks I should be on milk containers as missing…I can understand that since I’m never home. My neighbors recently said they see me more in the desert than home..duh…the desert is my home..
Joy,
Thanks for the compliments. I’m humbled.
Mmmmm…… Filiberto’s! Washington sucks as far as Mexican food goes.
I have to agree Gary-
My husband likes Filibertos
I am not a fan of any eatery—
I like going to AJs or farmer’s markets—but hard for me to like a restaurant— they feed the world wrong—if I opened a restaurant it would be as I use to do— all from scratch healthy meals —-
Hey Gary-
what do you call cheese that isn’t yours?
Nacho cheese.
speaking food and humor and way tired—-
seems now ICU has Sonny at rest and I cleaned his cabin today…and getting it ready for home evaluation…
Sonny is like leave it be—come see me—“nnnooowww”
Yet the nurse said he has some item in him and they prefer him to rest and so I am torn if I should take this time to rest after all day cleaning or go up— they say he is sleeping so I am thinking I will crash too.
anymore humor?
topic this week— alcohol.
so here is a food/bar joke-
Mushroom walks in a bar, bartender says “Hey you can’t drink here.”
Mushroom says “Why not, I’m a Fun-gi!
alright I am way tired
good night
RTS- serious, something about you from day one—your posts always stood out—You really seem very caring and I guess being so drained and over extended I am just going through the days—but yeah I am pleased to say the I M site would not be the same if you ever did a Marti/Gary respite—
Sonny- if you read this. I took Leonard to legion for hamburger and there was some sort of miixer tonight in town—
everybody is wishing you well.
so many said they have been lately speaking of the fire and as well the special relations of the mountain man and cookie cutter subdivision lady—how very wonderful they said—our unique adventuresome spirits—They are all pleased to this day all the hardwork we did for them—thanking us for our strength to help them move forward…also was thanked for my continued spirit and connection to all—and the Earth—and for the world.
RUMOR around town, Sonny—you died Monday.
If you did I have been in one bad cloud and in denial—
NEXT STOP WILLOUGHBY…
THE NEVER ENDING CYCLE…TRAIN RIDE…OF SONNY N JOY—
There is a new book out…not on the YHF…page 11…http://www.yellowsheet.net/…very sweet lady…stopped by to visit her today…Patricia Gould…
Part 2 of 2
I have written this before, but I want to again in the context of what we know now, which is a lot more than we knew when I wrote it the last time. And in the eternal words of Rummy, our former Secretary of WAR, who never learned of a third world country he did not think we should invade for their own good, “There are known knowns. These are things we know that we know. There are known unknowns. That is to say, there are things that we know we don’t know. But there are also unknown unknowns. There are things we don’t know we don’t know.”
But the simple fact remains; I would never have been selected to be a hotshot crew boss in today’s wildland firefighter world. My excessive negative reaction to heavy and continual smoke inhalation would never have allowed me to gain the years of experience that is required of today’s hotshot leaders.
And that is a good thing. Selecting a 23 year old hardcore hotshot from the back of the bus to be the crew boss based in large part on his desire to be a hardcore hotshot on a forest that built a hyper hotshot program on steroids, was probably not the best selection criteria to promote responsible leadership all things considered.
Don’t get me wrong, I am eternally grateful they did, and almost everything eventually worked out for the best in the end…more or less. But it was probably touch and go more times than I care to remember…or admit with Bob and RTS reading this blog.
And as I have also stated before, that is why I was and continue to be so shocked at what happened to the GMIHC. Not in this day and age of enlightenment…not even in my day and age, which as I have said before were the Dark Ages, whereas the Loop Fire by contrast burned in the Stone Age of wildland firefighting.
I have posted another photo to show everyone what hotshots look like when they are on the verge of heat exhaustion as we crowded together behind a rock to find some relief from the brutal sun on a Tonto desert fire. Because of our close proximity to the Tonto National Forest, (we were above the Mongollon Rim, they were below it) desert fires on the Tonto were our bread and butter while we were waiting to go someplace better…which was almost anywhere else.
http://ourfiregods.com/reserved1.html
Desert fires on the Tonto, and not all of the Tonto consists of the magnificent and beautiful Sonoran Desert (see Payson and Pleasant Valley Ranger Districts), but much of it does. The ambient daytime temperatures on desert fires can easily reach 110 degrees Fahrenheit or more.
Being able to carry enough water at about eight pounds per gallon in order to stay hydrated was always problematic considering the places we had to go. Just as eating the mystery meat frozen sandwiches dropped off by a supply slick without getting the white bread so soggy that it dissolved into goo as they were broken open and thawed on hot rocks was always a challenge. As a rule of thumb, we always placed an order for twice as much water as we wanted; hoping we would at least get half as much as we needed. No water…no work…no shit.
I often tell people, if you can stick with my stories long enough, there is almost always a point to them. And here it is. The Yarnell Hill Fire was not on the Tonto, but it was on the lower half of the Prescott, which can be almost just as bad. It was a little higher than most desert fires because it was, “Where the desert breeze meets the mountain air” as the Yarnell Chamber of Commerce likes to proclaim. But it was still the desert and it was still hot in the sun during the day, really hot.
The Yarnell Hill Fire was no place for a crew who were mostly kids as the Woodsman has said, who had been drinking alcohol in the quantities all of the anecdotal and circumstantial evidence suggests they were almost right up to the point they went back on the clock at zero dark thirty hours. They should not have been sent or taken to any wildfire under those circumstances, much less one that was in the heat of the desert and going to hell in a hand basket.
Now I am old enough to have the time to sit long enough in my big and tall La-Z-Boy recliner without kids wanting me to go play with them…or buy them something, or both, and think things through. As a result, I now realize I possibly could have been responsible for frying Big Willies brain or killing him since he couldn’t remain standing on his feet any longer in the extreme heat of the desert on that fire. Instead I was focused on teaching him and everyone else a lesson about the evils of strong drink when they are out of sync with the rest of the crew.
In retrospect, I probably should have had Big Willie medevaced since he was clearly in heat distress just as the Granite Mountain Interagency Hotshot Crew should have never been taken or sent to the Yarnell Hill Fire…for lots of reasons.
See…that’s one more reason why this event was so unfair. I got to learn from my mistakes and I am still learning from them. None of those kids on that crew got to live long enough to learn from their mistakes…or anyone else’s in the minutes, hours, days, weeks, months and years before their deaths.
OCYMB,
Well said. I feel the same pain you are feeling laid out in your last paragraph.
Woodsman
And OCYMB means what?
Olde Codger Yet Magnificent Bastard
LOLOL! I was wondering that, too!
That was discussed in some detail downstream but you must have called in sick that day. My consistent negative attitude where I see that not only is the glass half empty, but I strongly suspect someone has pissed in it has finally paid off with a title I can buy into.
I have been searching for something since all of my other titles I worked so hard for my entire life were stripped away when I retired.
As someone I respect told me the other day in an email…”oh boo hoo you poor thing, you have to blog half the night while you pretend you are writing a book you will never finish, sleep in and then either go ride ATV’s or go Jeeping while you wait for your dear wife to tell you to take her somewhere nice for the weekend.”
Or it was something like that. I didn’t actually finish reading the email, I was too sleepy and went and took a nap instead..
Funny…I caught it…I knew what you meant
Yes, that was my not so veiled reference to the fact that they died because of really bad decisions made by others….Marsh, Steed and Willis. Willis because he put such a deeply flawed person in charge when he either knew or should have known how flawed Marsh was.
Yep.
Which is why, imho, the Families folded. They thought they wanted “The Truth.” Until the “rumors” of the “argument” started surfacing. And all that potential messiness.
After months and months and months and months of a mythological image of the Heroic Crew Looking Down From Heaven had evolved.
Too bad the Youngers of that crew weren’t among the Anointed (and thus the Protected).
Thankfully Grant McKee’s father STILL hasn’t Folded. Kudos to him.
One of these days I really do hope to write about this fire (etc etc etc etc) on Daily Kos (otherwise know to us intimates as the Great Orange Satan).
But, truly, I don’t even know where to begin.
I believe there was more than just the Arguments.
The State had some other info that pushed the Families into a settlement.
Possibly something they did not want released in a trial– as always there is more out there than we have seen.
Copy, Bob.
I getcha. Thanks for that.
well said
Well stated Gary. ANY desert fire on day shift was dreadful enough, but any fire on the Tonto NF during a day shift was horrific and painful, especially if you weren’t used to working in the heat, like the at-the-time, whimpy HS Crews from the Mighty Coconino on top of the cool Mogollon Rim. They HATED coming down to fight fires on the Tonto NF.
KNOWN hangovers were dealt with in either of three (3) ways for us: (1) Indian Runs, basically running wind sprints for an hour to sweat the alcohol out of their systems, when we were at the Base, or (2) Power Hikes, generally hiking hills in the heat with full gear and maybe a chainsaw for added weight, also to sweat out the alcohol, or (3) just leave them in the trucks OFF the firelines until they sobered up. Options (1) and (2) were totally opposite of what the namby-pamby articles on hangovers tell you. You know, (and this part must be said in a whiney voice while you read this) just sit in the shade or air conditioning, just r-e-l-a-x, drink plenty of fluids, take it e-a-s-y, don’t overdo it, that kind of Liberal drivel. NO way! The goal was to make it hurt, make it painful, and QUICKLY get the alcohol out of your system and get the WFF back to a clearer sense of reality. It USUALLY worked pretty well. And I will admit that I was in those situations myself a few times. It was hangovers that got me to quit drinking in excess.
It was even in our SOP, that for any and all drivers, we had a “No Fault, No Harm” policy, that stated even if you had one sip of alcohol prior to a fire assignment while off duty, just let your supervisor know and you were not allowed to drive until the next shift. “No Fault, No Harm” and it actually worked quite well.
RTS said “They HATED coming down to fight fires on the Tonto NF.”
And I say, Not true, any fire was a good fire, but some WERE better than others.
OK. I can’t even remotely compete with you guys. However.
I did once experience severe heat exhaustion in the Grand Canyon. It was not fun at all. Fortunately I always carried sodium-potassium tablets with me. So they, plus a lot of water, pulled me through back into the realm of the living. But, yeah.
My worstest ever hangover in “similar” conditions (since we’re all confessing/bragging, apparently) was at the Prescott College Black Mesa Archaeological Field School when I was about 20 years old. It had major long-term impacts on me.
We had a really powerful dust-devil roll through our camp that day that tore down our kitchen/dining-room tent-structure. So a maintenance crew from the college came up to fix the whole mess. Along with them they brought a supply of Black Jack Daniels.
And then we had a party around a campfire. At which party I drank a large chunk of a bottle of that Black Jack Daniels. Silly me. And then threw up and then staggered into my sleeping bag and passed out.
At 4:30 the next morning I was rudely awakened out of my stupor by the esteemed world-reknowned Southwest Archaeologist Dr. Robert C. Euler, who thundered out right into my eardrums, “Play Hard Work Hard!!!!!!!!!!”
I spent that day on our site running to the bushes while also Working Hard, in about 110 degree temperatures. Problem was, my parents were coming for a visit that afternoon. They heard all about it all and then hauled my rear end off to dinner at Kayenta, a dinner at which I tried my best to intelligently interact with them.
I decided after that experience that hangovers were the worstest experiences in the entire Universe. And lived my life after that avoiding them like the plague. And also avoiding anything that even remotely reminded me, taste-wise, like whiskey.
I’m writing this, what feels like eons later, while drinking hot orange juice and rum. Which is the only thing that puts me to sleep these days. Probably not a good thing.
But what the hey!!! I am who I am.
But I get what you’re saying, Gary. I wasn’t put on a wildfire that next morning. I can’t even imagine. It was bad enough as it was. Is this some kind of a testosterone thing or what?
I disagree. I told you months ago I am very familiar with some of the tales of how legendary the parties archaeological students have on digs were. Some of those fantastical stories made me wish I had majored in archaeological studies instead of boring ole Police Science.
Oh…and I just saw your last question. This is mostly “or what.”
I am just spinning a story to make it more interesting to our readers than simply stating the bare truth, but I can do that as well.
I believe based on the stories that I have heard that a very high percentage of the Granite Mountain Interagency Hotshot Crew were still drunk when they went on the line on the Yarnell Hill Fire and furthermore, I believe their physical and mental condition due to their alcohol consumption was a major contributing factor in their deaths.
I believe the toxicology reports when and if they are ever released will support this theory.
So…I am baiting them. Whoever them are.
Gary,
The toxicology reports when they are ever released will support this theory
I am going to say this up front here because I think it needs to be said by someone, somewhere:
We, the public, have now learned about “Widespread cheating by instructors, cadets alleged at California’s fire training academy” for the reason that the investigative reporters at the SACRAMENTO BEE did an excellent job of being who they are supposed to be, and doing what they are supposed to do.
Viva SACRAMENTO BEE.
AGREED! I think they did a stellar job of true investigative reporting, similar to what JD does. This is a lost virtue in our society anymore.
I agree. They did a bang-up job.
I bet there was some push-back, too.
Too bad Arizona Republic is so completely spineless in comparison.
Reply to J. Stout post on December 1, 2015 at 11:56 am
>> J. Stout said…
>>
>> We, the public, have now learned about “Widespread cheating by
>> instructors, cadets alleged at California’s fire training academy” for
>> the reason that the investigative reporters at the SACRAMENTO BEE
>> did an excellent job of being who they are supposed to be, and doing
>> what they are supposed to do.
Yes… I echo your ‘Viva! SACRAMENTO BEE”…
…but let’s remember something else here.
There would have been no story at all unless SOME people who worked in that corrupt system hadn’t woken up one day and decided it was time for THEM to do what THEY were ‘supposed to do’ as well.
Tell the TRUTH.
Some of these people finally realized who pays their salaries and who they are ‘supposed’ to be working for… and that the FF business is NOT the fucking ‘Military’ or the ‘Mafia’ or the ‘Masons’.
It’s a JOB. A unique one… but a JOB nonetheless and subject to the same ‘rules of the road’ that we ALL have to deal with.
Corruption needs to be REPORTED… and FIXED.
SILENCE means CONSENT.
THAT’s what we need more of.
More of these people who are IN ‘the system’ to start telling the TRUTH ( as well as more good reporting like what the BEE just did ).
Regarding what I wrote downstream about the situation on the Twisp River Fire, in which, according to the report, the three Incident Commanders didn’t have access to/possession of any weather forecasts:
Robert the Second wrote on NOVEMBER 29, 2015 AT 10:33 AM
Marti,
Yes I agree with you, in part, that there was negligence on the part of the IC’s to send resources into the canyon knowing the predicted weather. It is still up to the WFF themselves to accept or not accept the assignment based on the WFF Rules.
What can we expect from ‘Managing wildfires in the WUI?
In my view, WFF, especially those that are Municipal/Structure/Wildland, are much more likely to take more risks in those WUI situations. It’s up to landowners to due their due diligence in Firewising their structures. Let the fire burn through the WUI, then go in and deal with the fire then. A structure is a tree with a door.
Bottom line, we are likely to experience more of these incidents until and unless we change our attitudes regarding structures.
—————————————————-
Problem is, according to the report, the Incident Commanders didn’t know “the predicted weather.” At least as I am reading the report. That is what I was calling attention to.
——————————————————–
“In my view, WFF, especially those that are Municipal/Structure/Wildland, are much more likely to take more risks in those WUI situations.”
I completely agree. I’ve been spending some time (arm-chair quarterback that I am) doing a lot of Googling regarding various combinations of stuff like “wildland firefighters structure wui” etc etc over the past week. And doing a lot of reading.
Because I think we here have been seeing some patterns. So I’ve been wondering if anybody else is seeing those patterns. At least as I can tell, via the Intertubes.
I’ve seen a number of things regarding how structural fire-fighters need to think differently and train differently in order to prepare for fighting wildland fires impacting the WUI (also called the I-Zone) and even urban neighborhoods that wildfires are burning into.
But, to be perfectly honest, I’ve seen very little regarding wildland crews and hotshot crews being trained differently or being trained to think differently. Other than some things, like what the GMHS did on the Thompson Ridge Fire and the Doce Fire. What I’m seeing is a bunch of fuzziness here.
It seems to me that Gary thinks they just shouldn’t even “go there.” But, in reality, that’s just not what is happening.
Gary, it seems to me, sees structures as just being just “fuel” in the way of a wildfire that the land management agencies (federal and state) prioritize protecting uber-acres of trees and such, structures be damned.
But, everything I am seeing/reading tells me that that is not the case, in reality at this time.
I am seeing WAY WAY WAY more emphasis (and $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$) being focused on protecting structures (and also civilian lives) in the Wildland Urban Interface than on acreages of trees. And the strategies and tactics are following that.
Gary may not agree that that should be the case, but IT IS. Despite what Arizona Department of Forestry is saying when they say the Homeowners’ Lawsuit should be dismissed.
I am totally agreeing with those who say that the costs (and sometimes responsibilities) of fighting wildfires on the WUI need to be “charged” to more local entities. What is going on right now is, imho, completely unbalanced.
Why should the USFS (which I detest in many ways regarding their gagging of their employees and their whitewashing of investigations) and their employees be held financially (and physically) responsible for fighting wildfires on the WUI when local jurisdictions just assume they should (which, apparently, was happening on the Twisp River Fire)? Amirite?
What I’m seeing is that the whole WUI thing, right now, is something of a mess. And a dangerous mess, for fire-fighters. What I’m seeing is that they’re kinda sorta holding a bit of a line, but it’s a fragile line, given what I think we are seeing. And a very dangerous one.
If, imho, Wildland Firefighters do what they seem to have been doing on the Valley Fire and the Twisp River Fire (and Yarnell and Esperanza), thinking the way they seem to have been thinking, they are doing neither Wildland Firefighting nor following the 10 and 18.
But the Wildland Urban Interface seems to be, in fact, challenging ALL the previously hard-won protocols. It seems to me that what “worked” and created all of those protocols on Wildland Fires is being radically challenged, in reality, in the Wildland Urban Interface. At least that is what I am seeing.
Namaste.
PS. I need to say, here, that I do believe the 10 and 18 are still applicable in the Wildland Urban Interface.
But, from what I am seeing, the problem is that they haven’t yet been successfully translated into that rather different (both physically and emotionally) environment.
And regarding CalFire, what a total freaking stupendous mess!!
“Widespread cheating by instructors, cadets alleged at California’s fire training academy”
http://www.sacbee.com/news/politics-government/capitol-alert/article46957695.html
Be sure to read it all and play all the videos. Jeebus.
Whether or not this played a role in what happened regarding that Helitack Crew on the Valley Fire, who TF knows???????
I want to think not. But…………..
I decided, when I moved from the forest outside of Flagstaff, to Albuquerque, in 1990, that, even though I would REALLY PREFER to live in the forest, that that wasn’t really a sustainable decision, all things considered. I saw it all coming.
Namaste.
Marti I was the first to say YES HOUSES are part of the fuel. If you can not protect them safely do to many factors including access defensible space and room to turn around Engines.
In IA the primary goal of Wild Land crews and Engines is to establish a Anchor point and start a line on the sides of the fire if that can be done behind structures great but once the fire is into structures a 300 or 500 Gal. Wild land Fire Engine is not going to stop the House from burning.
They are not structure fire engines. Thus the house just becomes part of the fuel bed.
The Hand Line or Cat Line with support of water is the best and most relied on way to go. You have escape routes and can assign lookouts
Driving into a housing area leaves you with few choices for retreat.
As I have said it is a death trap. Scouting ahead of a fire in timber is never recommended. As proven this year.
Shout watch outs # 8 & # 10 Safe Anchor point
Attempting a frontal assault. And always FIRE WEATHER
Unburned fuel between you and the fire that includes Structures!!!!!!!!
Exactly, Bob, and thank you.
And thanx to everybody who chimed in downstream. I’ve really appreciated being able to share my arm-chair-quarterbacking-civilian thoughts, questions, and ideas, and hear back from people who have experience in the field.
Did a bunch more hunting and reading today. Found some interesting things which I’ll put out here, in due time.
It looks to me like Stephen Pyne and the folks in Montana are taking some kind of lead challenging this new-found habit of throwing wildland firefighters at structures in the WUI.
“Burn, Baby, Burn—if We Say So”
JULY 4 2014 12:20 PM
http://www.slate.com/articles/technology/future_tense/2014/07/box_and_burn_the_future_of_u_s_wildfire_policy.html
“U.S. wildfire policy is a muddled mashup, but it’s the best we’ve got.”
“In the season (and years) to come, we’ll see plenty of strong initial attacks on new fires. Around exurbs and cities, agencies will hurl everything at hand in an effort to squelch the flames before they can gain purchase. Elsewhere, responses will differ by agency, but the likely approach will be variations of point protection and “box and burn.” In the name of firefighter safety and cost containment—and of getting some useful fire back on the ground—crews will cede land.”
Forgot to say, that article above is by Stephen Pyne.
He’s being quite prolific right now.
Once upon a time, after I moved to central Albuquerque from the forests of Flagstaff, I embarked upon a NaNoWriMo (National Novel Writing Month) project, narrating a bunch of my friends, who mostly hated each other, finding themselves in the midst of a wildfire in the East Mountains of the Sandias in New Mexico. And why and how they found themselves in the midst of that.
That fire hasn’t happened yet. But, all things considered, I think it will.
New Mexico has been spared from wildfire this year by El Nino. As it probably will be next year. I predict that in 2017 all hell will break loose here. That’s a huge part of why I am paying so much attention to where things may be going and how they may be going there.
I certainly agree they are not going to listen to me and the problem is going to get much, much, much worse before it gets really bad.
Actually, Gary, I found quite a few people thinking like you today.
Well, not EXACTLY like you (heh), but there’s a push-back growing.
But I’m still investing in popcorn.
Reply to Marti Reed post on November 30, 2015 at 9:58 pm
>> Marti said…
>>
>> Because I think we here have been seeing some patterns.
>> So I’ve been wondering if anybody else is seeing those patterns.
Oh… you damn betcha.
Just since ( and including ) Yarnell… we are looking at a whole lot of dead people ( and almost dead people… like the 4 morons at the Valley Fire ) where the absolute ‘common denominator’ is…
They should NOT have been WHERE they were, WHEN they were.
Whether it’s training issues, or experience issues, or ‘freelancing’ issues remains to be seen, but there is no doubt that ALL of these ‘incidents’ have ‘common ground’.
And I am including poor David (Dave) Ruhl’s death on July 30, 2015 at the Frog Fire, Mt. Shasta, CA… even though we ( the people PAYING for all of this ) haven’t heard jack shit yet from the infamous USFS stooge Mike Dudley, who is running THAT ‘CRAP’ investigation into David’s death.
Mike Dudley was named as CRAP lead back on August 4, just after THAT death…
Wildfire Today
Article: Cause of death and plans for final arrangements released
for firefighter killed in California
Published: August 4, 2015 by Bill Gabbert
http://wildfiretoday.com/2015/08/04/cause-of-death-and-plans-for-final-arrangements-released-for-fallen-firefighter-in-california/
From the article…
—————————————————————
The David Ruhl fatality is currently being investigated by OSHA, the Office of Inspector General for the Department of Agriculture, the County Sheriff, and a Coordinated Response Protocol (CRP) team. According to Safety Matters the CRP team is being led by Mike Dudley, who also served as secondary team leader for the Serious Accident Investigation Team for the Yarnell Hill Fire and the deaths of 19 members of the Granite Mountain Hotshots in 2013.
—————————————————————
‘Shit happens’ is NOT a valid explanation for any ‘series’ of fatal industrial accidents in what are supposed to be ‘Safety minded’ workplaces.
There ARE ‘common causal factors’ here and any SANE ‘business’ would be hard at work identifying them and FIXING them.
LIVES ( continue ) to be fully ‘at stake’ here.
>> Marti also said…
>>
>> What I’m seeing is that the whole WUI thing, right now, is something of a
>> mess. And a dangerous mess, for fire-fighters. What I’m seeing is that
>> they’re kinda sorta holding a bit of a line, but it’s a fragile line, given
>> what I think we are seeing. And a very dangerous one.
>>
>> If, imho, Wildland Firefighters do what they seem to have been doing on
>> the Valley Fire and the Twisp River Fire (and Yarnell and Esperanza),
>> thinking the way they seem to have been thinking, they are doing
>> neither Wildland Firefighting nor following the 10 and 18.
>>
>> But the Wildland Urban Interface seems to be, in fact, challenging ALL
>> the previously hard-won protocols. It seems to me that what “worked” and
>> created all of those protocols on Wildland Fires is being radically challenged,
>> in reality, in the Wildland Urban Interface. At least that is what I am seeing.
And that is WHY the pending appellate court decisions in the Arizona ‘wrongful death’ and ‘property damage’ suits are so, so important.
Arizona Forestry has MADE them ‘poster child court cases’ because of the ARGUMENTS they used to try and prevent ANYTHING from even ‘going to court’.
Whichever way these ‘appeals’ go… the results WILL have ‘nationwide repercussions’ for the entire WFF and Structural firefighting worlds AND for this whole dysfunctional ‘Unified Command’ thing.
These decisions will be the FIRST of their kind involving the new ‘hybrid firefighting’ bullshit and will be the FIRST time any State-level court in the land has had to ‘weigh in’ about what the fuck these firefighters are even LEGALLY responsible for doing when they show up for a fire.
I still think Arizona Forestry is about to ‘throw the baby out with the bathwater’ just because they have been so paranoid about making sure no witness ever even gets called to a witness stand regarding the Yarnell fiasco.
I think the ‘court decisions’ that will (eventually) emerge from the Arizona appellate court are going to have ‘unintended consequences’, regardless of which way the decisions swing.
Keep that popcorn close by.
“what the fuck these firefighters are even LEGALLY responsible for doing when they show up for a fire.”
Eggzactly.
In reality, what I’m/we’re seeing is that, when the WUI is involved, the vast acreages of trees are a secondary priority. Or third, even. And fire-fighter safety is getting lost in the complexity. It’s definitely about buildings, when it comes to strategy and tactics. And buildings are about politics.
In physical reality, yes, a building/house is just a tree with a door in it. But in social and political reality, that door has become vastly more important than the trees surrounding it. You have to be not looking in order to not see that.
I like a mix of blue and white popcorn. Tossed with tamari and seasonings (including, sometimes, a hint of red chile). I pop it in a big cast-iron wok. Oh, and a bit of parmesan is good on it, also.
Parmesan cheese on popcorn is delicious. Who would have ever thought that?
I would have.
Because I first worked at Kathy’s Cafe in Flagstaff, before then managing the Deli at New Frontiers. I had exquisitely developed taste-buds.
Ha ha!!!
And I look at those photos (and video) of Roy Hall and think, I probably, all things considered, HAD to have dropped arm-loads of plates of omelettes on tables including his. We were the most popular place in town when he was running the Flagstaff Hotshots.
Marti,
Yes you are right in your thinking, houses are a higher priority then a timber stand. However,neither is worth losing lives over. As stated by a number of people the homeowner needs to take responsibility for creating a defensible space around their investment,allowing FF’s room to work, or as RTS said let the fire blow through and then go in and due your work ( my favorite tactic).
Regardless of fuel type carrying the fire there is not a structure, timber stand or piece of dirt worth losing life over. It took me awhile in my career to come to this realization and share it with my crews.
I agree totally, and I see a pushback happening about this.
“Yes you are right in your thinking, houses are a higher priority then a timber stand.”
I understand Gary’s historical narrative that it used to be that timber stands were once the be-all and end-all of wildland fire-fighting prioritizing. But now that has changed.
But now I think there’s a push-back emerging against the pendulum swing that has landed in the realm of thinking that wildland fire-fighters should be throwing themselves whole-heartedly into the cosmic fight to save buildings.
On the other hand. Maybe saving trees isn’t, at this point, all that big of a deal. But watersheds and such? I’m thinking those should still be quite a big deal. Ecosystems matter. Even more than houses. And, thus we circle back.
Namaste.
“let the fire blow through and then go in and due your work ( my favorite tactic).”
I actually think that is what the helitack crew was doing on the Valley Fire. I think they were following the fire when they started out.
Then they got to the top of the ridge and started to go down it. I think that’s where they started walking into unburned fuel. And I think that’s where/how they got themselves into trouble.
But that’s just the picture that formed in my head while studying the report. I could easily be wrong.
Reply to Norb Szczurek post on
December 1, 2015 at 9:41 am
>> Norb Szczurek
>>
>> Regardless of fuel type carrying the fire there is not a
>> structure, timber stand or piece of dirt worth losing life
>> over. It took me awhile in my career to come to this
>> realization and share it with my crews.
HOW long?… if you don’t mind me asking?
And what would you have described your ‘prime directive’ as PRIOR that realization?
“Risk a lot… save a lot?”
WTKTT,
Early in my career and at a much younger age the adrenaline rush probably offset the reality of the situation. As my career progressed, the adrenaline rush became less and the realization of the situation set in. Did I like seeing houses and acres go up in smoke? Not at all but nothing was worth loss of life. Sometimes the big dog is gonna eat and there is not a lot we can do about it but pull back and watch. That probably didn’t hit me until about 10 years into my career, when I occasionally had supervisory responsibility and had my butt kicked a number of times protecting an evacuated structure that was more than likely insured.
I never bought into the ” risk a lot to save a lot ” BS, just never set right with me. If I understand your question about my directive prior to that, during an interface fire it would have been to pick a structure that will survive on its own, one where you can hang safely as the fire blows past( those are few and far between). In the latter years of my career I either found a way to put fire on the ground around the subdivisions or let the fire blow through and go back in and pick up the pieces( as RTS stated).
And again,10 and 18, LCES and maintaining situational awareness at all times.
WTKTT,
Sorry for the delay in response – got lost in moderation. Early in my career I was young, invincible and full of adrenaline so I think it was a challenge to “slay the dragon”. That probably lasted about the first 10 years of my career. I began taking on a supervisory role, that along with getting my ass kicked on numerous structure protection assignments opened my eyes to how stupid that tactic really was, risking lives to protect an evacuated structure that most likely is insured.
I have never bought into the “risk a lot to save a lot” mantra. It has just never set well with me. If I understand your “prime directive” question correctly it would have been to choose a house that will stand on its own, follow the 10, 18 and LCES and maintain situational awareness. If you can’t do that then don’t engage.
Norb,
And like MOST of us, you learned to NEVER do those actions or tactics again, so a true Lessons Learned. In other words, just a few good Bad Decisions with Good Outcomes taught you a valuable lesson, to faithfully follow the WFF Rules, and NEVER do those stupid, dangerous things again.
Thank you, Norb, for your honesty and your important insights.
What makes it all totally relevant, I think, is that you seem to be saying that your decision to stop taking ‘risks’ was a personal one, and that you ‘arrived’ at that yourself… but there never seemed to be any real PRESSURE for you to ‘arrive’ at safe decision making.
I think that condition still exists ‘out there’.
Too many ‘Bad/Poor decisions with Good/Lucky outcomes’ and not enough supervision or even consequences for behaving that way.
It’s still getting people hurt/killed.
WTKTT,
I think the turning point for me was becoming a supervisor, I was no longer being told what and how to do things I was now making decisions that had significant potential to impact my crew. Everyone sees things a little differently, some have way more experience than others and those experiences shape decisions. The things that don’t change are the rules of engagement, the 10 and 18, and LCES, these rules need to be factored into every decision on the fire ground.
As far as consequences go, we usually don’t hear about those poor decisions with good outcomes unless someone gets hurt or worse. Even then we don’t always hear the facts on those poor decisions -” no one did anything wrong!” You don’t have to be a rocket scientist to identify the 10 and 18 and LCES violations made by the GMHS in their decision to move.
See. there is a common thread on all these fire fatalities like Charley Moseley mentioned.. Too many out there that were on these fires should be ADMITTING not OMITTING details …and I agree.
**
** TWISP – THE CAUSE OF THE FIRE ( CONTINUED )
**
** FIRE STARTED ON PROPERTY THAT HAS WORK CONTRACTS
** WITH WASHINGTON STATE AND THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT.
>> On November 29, 2015 at 12:44 pm, Bob Powers said…
>>
>> OK Looking at the Picture above I see something black on the right
>> side of the pole just below the cross arm, but cant enlarge the picture
>> to see what it is. It looked like a transformer when I made my statement
>> above. It at first looked partially covered by the pole. Now I am not sure?????
I believe you are right.
That ‘something black’ on the right side of the pole appears to be just the ‘edge’ of a small (standard) transformer and the rest of the ‘cannister’ is being hidden by the pole.
Photo enhancement shows the standard ‘hookups’ for a small residential transformer coming off the ‘mains’ and attaching to that ‘black thing’ on the pole, including a standard ‘disconnect’ pull-switch.
Not sure what the actual ‘distribution voltage’ would be for that main line that runs along Twips River Road, but a 7200 volt distribution voltage would be typical. A modern home electrical service is 200 amps at 240 volts.
So SOMETHING must have been ( or still is ) on that pole doing the ‘step down’ for the triflex service drop that goes to that small house there.
That being said… some key points here…
Photo enhancement also shows that there does NOT ( repeat NOT ) appear to have been any kind of ‘fire’ or ‘burning’ at the top of that pole. Yes… the ‘canister’ appears ‘black’ ( or grey? )… but it is EVENLY colored and the coloration doesn’t appear to be the result of a ‘burn’. There is also no evidence of an ‘burn marks’ there on the pole itself where this ‘canister’ is mounted.
The ‘MarcyInvestigate_5006.jpg’ photo taken the day after the tragedy and showing the investigators assembled there at that ‘small house’ also seems to clearly show that the ‘triflex service drop’ from the pole to the small house either never got disconnected or has already been re-connected.
Again… here is a DIRECT LINK to that Marcy Stamper ‘power pole’ photo itself still sitting there on the ‘Methow Valley News’ Server…
http://methowvalleynews.com/wp-content/uploads/MarcyInvestigate_5006.jpg
If you look closely at that photo, the ‘service drop’ leaves the top of that pole and comes down to the house right there to the right of the ‘white chimney’ showing on the top of the house.
There is actually a standard Electric Company ‘bucket truck’ shown in the photo right along with the USFS investigators vehicles at that small house.
So maybe the ‘service drop’ to the house had already been restored on the day after the incident when this photo was taken… but I doubt it.
My better guess would be to say that this photo proves the ‘triflex service drop’ down to that small house never got ‘disconnected’ at all during the fire.
However… same photo SEEMS to show that the MAIN lines between that pole and at least the one to the EAST of it ( near the entrance to Woods Canyon Road ) are MISSING.
By MISSING I mean that at the time this photo was taken… they don’t appear to be either still ‘up in the air’ OR anywhere lying on the ground.
The photo at the top of the “Twisp Initial Summary Report” DOES show them ‘still in the air’ ( and still connected to that pole ) at whatever time THAT photo was taken WHILE the fire was still active… but by the time this other photo was taken of investigators at the small house site… those main wires don’t seem to be there anymore.
** THE STORY ON THE HOUSE / PROPERTY ITSELF WHERE
** THE TWISP / WOODS CANYON ROAD FIRE ORIGINATED.
As it turns out… that property that this POWER POLE is sitting on is NOT a piece of PRIVATE PROPERTY.
The POLE itself is owned / operated / maintained by the Okanogan County Electric Co-op ( OCEC ). It is part of THEIR electric grid.
But that property ( and the small house ) right there where the fire originated that this OCEC power pole sits on is OWNED by ANOTHER ‘Electric Company’.
The Douglas County Public Utility District ( PUD ).
Here is the ‘sales history’ for that piece of property where this Twisp fire originated as per online ( PUBLIC ) records sitting at the Okanogan County Tax Assessor’s office…
The small wood-frame house that is on that property was built in 1965.
Yes… that’s now 50 ( FIFTY ) years ago.
The property and the small house that is there was still owned by Vern Heath as of September, 2001. In October of 2001 Vern Heath sold the house and property to family members Carl and Di Ann Heath for $10,000. They remained the sole owners of the property for 4 years until April 20, 2004, when they granted another set of family members, Timothy and Vicki Heath, a 1/3 interest in the property for a price of $0 dollars.
There were no other sales or transactions for the next 7 years until January 10, 2011, when the entire house and property was sold to the ‘Douglas County Public Utilities District ( PUD ) for the sum of $159,500.
There have been no other sales or transactions since then and the Douglas County Public Utilities District is still listed as the current owner of the property as of this date. The property is also listed as ‘Tax Exempt’ in the Okanogan County Assessor’s database.
So that’s who OWNS this property where the Twisp fire originated on August 19, 2015.
The Douglas County Public Utilities District (PUD).
BUT THERE’S MORE!
The Douglas County Public Utility District bought that property where the Twisp fire originated because they ALSO own the lot that is directly across the street, to the south of where the Twisp fire started.
That is also no ordinary piece of property.
It happens to be a VERY important Salmon spawning and acclimation facility know as the ‘Twisp Weir’, which is OPERATED by ( drum roll, please )…
The Washington State Department of Fish and Wildlife ( WDFW ).
It is also known as the ‘Twisp Hatchery’ and it’s one of the places where endangered species of Salmon are being ‘spawned’ and protected and there are contracts with the Yakama (Indian) Nation Fisheries Program and ( you guessed it ) the FEDERAL level United States Fish and Wildlife Service ( USFW ).
So the Twisp Fire didn’t just start on any ordinary piece of property.
It started on the northwest corner of a VERY important ‘facility’ that has ties to Douglas County ( land ownership ), Washington State ( operates the facility ) and the FEDERAL Government ( contracts performed there ).
Running out of room on this post so look for another with more LINKS.
Followup…
Lot of LINKS to come on this… but here is just one that proves it was no ‘secret’ even just days after the fire that the property where the Twisp fire originated is a tax-exempt piece of property owned by the Douglas County Public Utility District.
This ‘Douglas County PUD’ land ownership was mentioned in a local Methow Valley News article just a few days after the tragedy… but this article does NOT mention that the propety is actually part of the VERY important Salmon spawning/preservation facility directly across the road knows as the “Twisp Weir”.
See the LAST PARAGRAPH below…
The Methow Valley News
Article Title: Forest Service releases information about firefighter deaths
Published: August 26, 2015 at 7:01 pm
http://methowvalleynews.com/2015/08/26/forest-service-releases-information-about-firefighter-
deaths/
From the article…
———————————————–
Cause under investigation
The cause of the fire is also under investigation. Investigators have not reached conclusions about whether it was caused by lightning or was human caused, said Boehm.
Woods Canyon Road has several sharp turns as it climbs a steep hill on the north side of Twisp River Road. There were six residences on the road, plus other structures, and initial reports indicate that at least three homes near the top of the road were destroyed in the fire.
Forest Service investigators have been examining the area near Woods Canyon Road and around a small house just west of there owned by the Douglas County Public Utility District.
A spokesperson for the utility said the house is vacant.
———————————————–
So a ‘spokesperson for the utility’ ( Douglas County PUD ) admitted the house was ‘vacant’… but apparently neglected to inform the reporter that that house and property are actually part of the VERY important “Twisp Weir” facility right across the street from where this fire started.
Whoops… the actual HYPERLINK in the message above showed up ‘broken’.
Here’s the one that works…
The Methow Valley News
Article Title: Forest Service releases information about firefighter deaths
Published: August 26, 2015 at 7:01 pm
http://methowvalleynews.com/2015/08/26/forest-service-releases-information-about-firefighter-deaths/
Quick one here.
I know nothing about power poles/lines/transformers etc, so i’ve been deferring to those of you who do.
But one of the things I did think strange was looking at those two photos and thinking, “hmmmmm, shouldn’t there be lines coming off that pole and heading in the direction of the camera?”
Especially since the one connected to the house is clearly visible in both.
But then I don’t see lines going in the OTHER direction either.
Marti,
I am by no means an electrician nor do I claim to know much of anything about electricity, so you question prompted me to check further. And here’s one link that I liked:
http://www.science.smith.edu/~jcardell/Courses/EGR220/ElecPwr_HSW.html
Go to the ‘TAPS’ and ‘AT THE HOUSE’ sections
Hope it helps satisfy your amazing mind
My amazing mind will check that out tomorrow!
Marti,
It’s tomorrow.
http://www.science.smith.edu/~jcardell/Courses/EGR220/ElecPwr_HSW.html
Go to the ‘TAPS’ and ‘AT THE HOUSE’ sections
To satisfy your amazing mind ya know
I may have found even a better one. It’s actually a CalFire document about Powerlines and Wildfires and Regulations and such.
But I’m falling asleep. So I’ll have to post it tomorrow.
Tomorrow.
Reply to Marti Reed post on November 30, 2015 at 5:49 pm
>> Marti said…
>>
>> one of the things I did think strange was looking at those two photos
>> and thinking, “hmmmmm, shouldn’t there be lines coming off that
>> pole and heading in the direction of the camera?”
>>
>> Especially since the one connected to the house is clearly visible in both.
>>
>> But then I don’t see lines going in the OTHER direction either.
The only photo ( so far ) that CLEARLY shows the power lines still fully ‘up in the air’ where they should be and still fully attached to that POWER POLE right there at the Twisp fire origin is that photo at the very TOP of the recently released USFS ‘Twisp River Fire Status Report’.
But that is, from and ‘evidence’ perspective, the most important one.
The morons at USFS didn’t even bother to put a TIME on the photograph ( or even a caption that says that really IS a photo of the fire’s origin area )… but there is no doubt that photo they used at the top of their bullshit ‘Initial report’ was taken on the day of the fire itself.
By ?? who? They don’t even say.
There are FIRES still burning there in the brush behind the house and at the base of that tall tree on the left of the photo that is actually ‘hiding’ the power pole in question.
So that means that even sometime late in the afternoon, when this photo was taken, those power lines were still ‘up in the air’ stretching over that small house and were still ‘connected’ to the PPIQ ( Power Pole In Question ).
That also means it is highly unlikely that those lines had ‘broken’ and/or fallen to the ground and STARTED the Twisp River fire.
Example: if one those primary supply likes had broken on EITHER SIDE of that PPIQ, then we’d be seeing ‘slack’ in the photo at the top of the report.
We don’t ( see any slack ). On ANY of the primary lines ‘up there’.
So… why we might not be seeing the lines at all in the LATER photos ( the Marcy Stamper photos taken 3 days later on August 22 ) is anyone’s guess.
They may have DROPPED the lines on purpose as part of needing to fix the damage in that area. The pole itself does NOT look ‘burned’ but the Okanogan Country Electric Cooperative ( OCEC ) that owned that pole might have already decided to replace it anyway come August 22 when Marcy Stamper took her photo.
There is, in fact, an OCEC ‘Bucket Truck’ sitting right there in the driveway by that small house on August 22 when Marcy Stamper took that other photo.
There is also a high possibility that even in the Marcy Stamper photo, those ‘main lines’ *might* actually still be ‘connected’ and up there in the air… but because of the photo angle and the lighting… they are virtually impossible to see.
Example would be the other photograph of that small house ( and the space above it ) that is sitting on the Okanogan County Tax Assessor’s office.
This photo was taken in 2010, just before that house and the property where the Twisp River fire originated was purchased by the Douglas County Public Utilities District ( DCPUD ) for $159,500 dollars and added to their already-existing highly-important ‘Twisp Weir’ endangered Salmon spawning/acclimation facility directly across the street from where this Twisp Fire started.
The house was BLUE then ( in 2010 ).
The DCPUD painted it ‘Salmon Color’ ( of course ) after they purchased it and absorbed it into their existing ‘Twisp Weir’ Salmon facility right there across the street.
Here’s a direct link to that 2010 photo sitting on the Okanogan County Tax Assesor’s Server…
http://okanoganwa.taxsifter.com/Attachments/30000/299/62/29962_m.jpg
Notice in this 5 year old ( 2010 ) photo of the same house and property… you can see the ‘Power Pole In Question’ (PPIQ) but it ALSO looks like there are no ‘main lines’ in the air above the property.
They were THERE ( in 2010 ). You just can’t see them in the photo, for some reason.
That PPIQ is CLEARLY visible there just beyond the house, on that hillside, and even in this photo it does NOT appear that there were any trees close enough to that pole or the lines to have allowed a ‘limb strike’ on the lines to have been the cause of the Twisp Fire. The ‘Right of Way’ for that pole does, in fact, look standard and according to NEC standards ( which Public Utility companies use ).
So it’s still a mystery why we have this POWER POLE sitting at what for all the world looks like the ACTUAL origin of the Twisp fire… but the photographic evidence really isn’t showing any blatant ‘damage’ or ‘downed power lines’ or ‘burn marks on the pole’ that would readily indicate something happened.
But regardless of the fact that the USFS investigators were/are too incompetent to figure it out… SOMETHING happened to start that fire.
And it DID happen right there by that pole.
More to come on this ( and about this Government owned/operated ‘Twisp Weir’ Salmon facility on whose property the fire actually originated ).
Forgot to mention…
In that 2010 photo of the house/property where the Twisp Fire originated…
http://okanoganwa.taxsifter.com/Attachments/30000/299/62/29962_m.jpg
Look in the lower left corner of the photograph.
There is a DARK, THIN straight-line shadow on the ground there that looks for all the world like the SHADOW of one of the power lines as it passed over
that house and continued EAST to the next Junction pole over by the entrance to Woods Canyon Road.
So there we have even more ‘proof’ that those power mains really were ‘in the air’ there over that house and connected to that power pole just beyond the structure…
…but you still can’t really SEE THEM ‘in the air’ there in this particular photo.
So I guess it all depends on the resolution of the image, the time of day, the lighting, and the camera angle.
That might also be why we don’t *appear* to see them, either, in the Marcy Stamper photo taken on August 22, 2015, 3 days after the tragedy.
Whoops… my bad.
I was wrong above about the DATE of this photo sitting on the Okanogan County Tax Assessor’s site.
The YEAR the photo was taken was actually 2001, not 2010.
In the lower RIGHT corner of the photo is a TIME.DATE stamp on the photo itself and it says…
10 / 23 / 2001
October 23, 2001 ( not 2010 ).
That explains the ‘changes’ to the house. By the time the Douglas County Public Utility District bought it to add to their ‘Twisp Weir’ Salmon facility in 2010 ( and painted it its current ‘Salmon Pink’ color ) the house had undergone some changes.
That ‘front room’ was turned into a ‘porch’ and the back NE corner of the house had a small addition put on.
So that photo actually shows that same ‘Power Pole’ as far back as 14 years ago ( 2001 ), and what the trees looked like right there in that area that would become ( on August 19, 2015 ) the origin of the Twisp Fire.
And as usual, I like to tell the story with photos if I can. They say a picture is worth a thousand words.
And so here are three. The first two are of First Pulaski Big Willie when he was on his game. Big Willie was one of the finest First Pulaski’s who ever swung that tool on the Happy Jack Hotshots. Big Willie was also a back of the bus hell raiser who worked at a biker bar as a bouncer down in Tucson during the off season.
The last photo is one of Big Willie when he had been drinking unknown to me at the time and out of sync with the rest of the crew the night before a fire on the Tonto.
So…I ask all of you. Do you think it looks like a PROBLEM?
http://www.ourfiregods.com/reserved1.html
The entire crew were on their feet working, but Big Willie couldn’t keep standing, much less working because he was hung over.
And yes RTS, I realize his sleeves were up and we already had that argument last year and I admitted I was a little (and sometimes a lot) lax with some safety standards in keeping with the Bill Buck Way on the Mighty Coconino…my bad.