Yarnell Hill Fire Chapter XVI

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Please begin Chapter XVI here:

Chapter I, Chapter II, Chapter II supplement, Chapter III, Chapter IV, Chapter V, Chapter VI, Chapter VII, Chapter VIII , Chapter IX,  Chapter X, Chapter XI, Chapter XII , Chapter XIII, Chapter XIV and Chapter XV.

© Copyright 2015 John Dougherty, All rights Reserved. Written For: Investigative MEDIA

Comments

  1. Gary Olson says

    FYI- Karen Fann was really on the ball today making sure she got my email. I am really looking forward to posting her reply to me…whatever it say’s and whenever it comes.

    She actually seems to be a really concerned and dedicated representative of the people when I am communicating with her one on one.

    But then again…she probably has a hard time squaring my one on one emails with what I write here as well.

    Everybody has an angle.

    • Gary Olson says

      I just checked…the spot price for copper is a little less than $2.00 per pound and the spot price for brass is a little less than $1.50 per pound.

      Copper thieves climb up on commercial buildings in Phoenix and spend the night ripping wires out of the roofs and air conditioning units to sell by the pound. And they have to go burn the insulation wires off that first, which is hard, time consuming, and dirty work.

      How long do you think a statue made out of bronze sitting unattended in a remote area that weighs hundreds (?) of pounds is going to last when It can be taken in one fell swoop?

      It’s time for a reality check!

      • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

        I think this ‘larger than life-size’ bronze statuary thing ( 1.25 scale ) has always been a really, really BAD idea ( for all the reasons you have pointed out and then some ).

        Not only does it add a tremendous COST to the project… which the Arizona legislature is unwilling to fund and has to be done with ‘donations’ ( which they may or may not even get )… it’s just simply not necessary.

        I guarantee you… just about anyone who sets off on that 2 mile, steep uphill hike just to reach that point up on the ridge where that ‘alternate escape route’ actually turned to the east towards the Boulder Springs Ranch already knows why they are going up there… and what a wildland firefighter is.

        They don’t need to see some ( expensive ) bronze figures holding chainsaws and pulaskis to ‘get the picture’.

        And as for the “Larry the Lookout’ statue… I think that’s the worst idea of all.

        I’ve been wondering what this statue’s nickname should be and decided that ‘Larry’ is about as good as anything.

        LARRY stands for…

        “Lookout ( that was ) Absent ( that day ) Retroactively Returning ( to ) Yarnell”

        They should DROP the ‘statuary’ idea.

        Having that sort of thing in a completely UNATTENDED boondock park has NEVER been a good idea… for all the reasons you mention.

        What if they get hit by lightning up there on that ridge it ends up causing ANOTHER Yarnell Fire when the vegetation grows back?

        Not even worth the risk.

        • Gary Olson says

          Right. And I guess I keep thinking they were talking about putting one down by the main highway, but maybe I remember that wrong? I don’t think any meth heads would carry the things down off the mountain, but they had better not be near any road. I just really like the rock cairn idea, it is so simple and so poignant given the Ashcraft story and the aspect of enabling visitors who want to “do” something to make it a little better. .

          I don’t know if you have ever been to the plaza around the courthouse in downtown Prescott, but that is were they have a gigantic statue of Bucky O’neil on a charging horse. He was a Prescott cowboy who ended up with the Rough Riders charging up San Juan Hill with Teddy Roosevelt that’s at the front (north) end of the courthouse.

          Then there is a war memorial on the west side and another gigantic statue of a cowboy laying down with his gigantic horse behind him like he is overlooking the valley of the Little Big Horn on the south end.

          There isn’t anything on the east side where they park the prisoner vans take them into court. Everyone else uses that entrance as well. Anyway…I think that would be a really good place to put some more statues if they get the money to buy them.

          But I don’t think any of “them” want to hear my opinion where I really think they can stick their statues. In any case, it will be interesting to see how it plays out. I guess I am wondering if they can raise another two million on top of the thirteen or fourteen million they already raised to donate to the families?

          • Gary Olson says

            And I really, really, really…REALLY HATE the idea of a statue representing a lookout…unless they arc weld his head to his ass.

            • Bob Powers says

              Well back to the Simple. I think the Rattle Snake Fire Memorial is a great example of what a Memorial is all about.
              Metal 2.5 inch square tubes made into Crosses cemented into the ground and painted white. with a trail from a parking lot with a Bathroom FS camp ground stile. You can hike out to and visit each cross some are in a group some are scattered out in different directions where the Fire fighters ran to before they were overcome.
              My dad with 7 others were in one group the other 7 were scattered over a larger area one made a run of almost 300 yards and was just below the Road. But trails to all and a spot they keep open of brush representing the Spot Fire.
              On the road looking strait across the canyon at the site and Crosses they have a very nice explanation area with metal pictures of the 15 a bell from the Missionary camp Seats and a Picnic table.
              Those have been there for almost 10 years now and well kept by the FS recreation department no vandalism has occurred.
              It is a 40 min. drive from Interstate 5 to the west.
              It is a learning area where people can walk thru the crosses sit amongst them feel the terrain and see the thick brush stand in the Spot Fire and see where they were in relation to the Main Fire.
              Discuss the discussions made and what they could do or would do different. Many and I mean many fire crews from northern and central California State and Feds use the site for training every spring. I could not tell you if or how many Civilians go there its not a real destination site but dose get visitors because of its access.

              I can tell you as a FF I can stand there and feel the heat the Panic the screams the excretion of crawling thru the brush while the Big Dog is breathing down your neck and you know you are trapped. Some stay to gather some take off on their own The brush is so thick you wonder how they got as far as they did.
              I am glad for and very proud of this memorial though for me as a son and a FF it is a very hard place to go and stand among the Crosses and look at my Dads and the other 7 with him. I know and feel the horror that they went thru. The Lessons learned are what is the value of a Memorial about wild land fire fatalities.

              The Yarnell Hill Fire Memorial for new recruits and other Fire Fighters would send a real training message if they could stand amongst the Crosses and feel the impact of the deployment site when the brush grows back the small area they were in and understand how they got there. The memorial dose not have to be a 911 show place it should be a education spot a place to reflect on wild land Fire fighting and the 10 and 18. It is not statues it is the men their memories and their fight to survive the mistakes that were made that give others pause. The memories of the families for the location of their last stand. IT IS NOT A GRAVE YARD.

              • Gary Olson says

                Amen Bob…to everything you said.

                And now, I would like to weigh in on something Sonny has said many, many, many times that I have never responded to and that is because I haven’t known what to say.

                But I have finally thought of a way to put my thoughts into writing…and since you brought it up in an oblique way, now is my time.

                And that is Sonny’s idea about using the Yarnell Hill Fire area as a training ground. And once again, I might just be the negative one (the Granite Mountain Hotshot Memorial Park stuff might be there for 100 years and not have anybody vandalize it) but we are a product of our life’s experiences and my have mostly been negative. So…no matter where I go, there I am.

                But forgive me, once again….I digress. And I would like you to weigh in on this and set me straight if I have got it all wrong, or even partially wrong.

                The problem with turning the Yarnell Hill Fire area into a training ground is that the wildland firefighting community as a whole, and that includes the big dog…the USFS, does not spend squat on training wildland firefighters.

                I think the general public would be shocked at how little time and money is spent on training even the best of the best. WTKTT made some comment months ago that the Granite Mountain Hotshots hardly fit the build up of a Type 1 crew because of the number of new people and the amount of training they had received.

                And the fact is, they were probably on par with almost everyone else and better than most. NOBODY gets the training they need or deserve. Almost all training is done in place, wherever that may be, by whoever is available to do so, whoever that may be, using very general, canned and usually outdated training materials that border on cartoon figures that are subpar to Sesame Street educational programs.

                Almost all training is done on-the-job by those who have been there longer than the trainee, even if it is by only a few days. The turnover is incredibly high (yes…I was a fucking Rock Star, that is why I was a hotshot crew boss at age 23….NOT) because the benefits and the pay, unless you are working on overtime, on a fire with hazard pay, on Sunday, at night, and on a holiday really sucks for the job you do.

                And in this day and age of budget cutbacks that have been rampant ever since our UNFUNDED INVASION OF IRAG IN OUR WAR BY CHOICE, things have been much, much, much, worse. And they are not going to get better anytime soon.

                Normally you can tell if you are trained up and a veteran on a hotshot crew simply because you haven’t quit or been killed or seriously hurt…yet.

                “They’ are never going to turn the Yarnell Hill Fire into a training ground except as a staff ride as some point that very few, who work nearby, will ever get to attend. They don’t have any training ground or academy anywhere, except for Marana for a very select few for very specialized training.

                And nowadays, entry firefighters are even expected to get their basic training on their own dime…before they get hired. Hence, the success of the Arizona Wildfire Academy or whatever that is that Marsh started in his living room.. I paid for my son to attend that very academy so he could get hired as an entry level wildland firefighter to beat out somebody that hadn’t paid for the fucking training out-of-pocket…SHIT!

                What say you Bob?

                • Gary Olson says

                  Oh…and one more thing. I think the general public is wrong about how much training they think wildland firefighters get because they are aware that the institutions that are most often thought of as being similar to the wildland firefighting “community”, do in fact train their recruits.

                  The U.S. Military…trains their recruits.

                  Law Enforcement Departments/Agencies….trains their recruits.

                  Structural Fire Departments….trains their recruits.

                  MacDonald’s Restaurants…trains their recruits.

                  The Wildland Firefighting Community….wings it on the fly.

                  • Gary Olson says

                    Since I am spun up right now and getting worse by the minute…let me tell you one more little secret…but please keep it between us.

                    The reason why I succeeded as a hotshot crew boss at age 23 was because I trained under 2 fucking crew bosses who were Rock Stars AND I had a United States Forest Service old school Fire Management Officer who had clawed his way up the ranks as my MENTOR! And I worked for 3 other old school Rock Star USFS FMO’s who I was also able to emulate.

                    All USFS FMO’s are fucking Rock Stars by definition. They really are the best of the best as a group.

                    Now…to take one more layer off the onion. The reason Eric Marsh killed his crew is because he did not train under ANY hotshot crew bosses, and his mentor…was Darrell Fucking Willis! THAT’S WHY!

                    Excuse…now it’s time for me to go get a massage.

                    • Gary Olson says

                      Whoops. I should have specified that I have not doubt in his world…the world of blue shirt structural FIREMEN…Darrell Willis was a true Rock Star of the highest order and as such, deserves a tremendous amount of respect.

                      But not in OUR HOUSE!

                • Bob Powers says

                  Well Gary I would have to Disagree with you.
                  But that may be because I was in California in the 60s and 70s where training was a high priority or my Supervisors were really high on getting training for their employees.
                  I was also lucky in Idaho to be close to NIFC in Boise where there were classes going all the Time and easy to get to.

                  The Sawtooth Hot Shots went thru the 40 hr. Crew training every year and got Squad boss and Crew boss training for all their foreman the ones on 13/13 are sent to severial S-courses during the off season. I know that still happens. Also the JR collage here has a FF training course in the Spring. There are also now computer courses that are certifiable on Fire training. including the ICS system which all FF must go thru.
                  Again all North Zone California Hot Shot Crews, Engine Crews from FS, BLM, and CalFire go to the Rattle Snake Fire for a Day with travel and discuss the entrapment the 10 and 18 and what happened and why. it could be the same on Yarnell.
                  I know severial crews also go to Storm king Mt. for the same thing although probably not as much.
                  I do believe there is more training today than 25 years ago. Also crews are hamstrung by fire seasons like the ones currently going they have less time for training during the Summer.

                  • Bob Powers says

                    A side note —at the dedication for the Rattle Snake Memorial there were Cal Fire crews and Engines along with 3 HS Crews and Severial FS Engines besides the Civilians there it was a huge crowd. there was a Bus shuttle due to the narrow forest road to the site.
                    roughly 400 people this was 50 years after the Fire.

                    • Gary Olson says

                      Good…because we kind of winged it on the Mighty Coconino. The new guys always got the 40 hours of course, but after that, it was OJT on the fire line.

                      Cross bosses went to Marana and had advanced training at Region etc. But never for the squad bosses or below. Training was always a low priority.

                      But like WTKTT say’s, we weren’t exactly rocket scientists and like I have said before, it was pretty simple work, which I really like about the job.

                      1. Cut hand line and burn it out.
                      2. Cut hand line and back fire it.
                      3. Cut hand line, burn it out and back fire it.
                      4. Repeat as often as necessary.

                      And I loved it.

  2. Gary Olson says

    WTKTT,

    Please refresh our memories by using you “Wayback” tool as to where the rock cairn memorial idea came from. Didn’t it start because Andrew Ashcraft always took a rock home to one of his boys from a fire? And then I think you (and maybe some other people) expanded on that idea?

    Thanks

    • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

      Reply to Gary Olson post on October 26, 2015 at 2:15 pm

      >> Gary Olson said…
      >>
      >> WTKTT, Please refresh our memories by using you “Wayback” tool as
      >> to where the rock cairn memorial idea came from. Didn’t it start because
      >> Andrew Ashcraft always took a rock home to one of his boys from a fire?
      >> And then I think you (and maybe some other people) expanded on that idea?

      No ‘wayback’ machine needed. It was discussed down below right here in this chapter ( direct link is below ).

      But it is Sonny and Joy who have ALREADY started this ‘tradition’.

      The fact that ( yes ) Andrew Ashcraft would always bring his oldest boy Ryder a ‘rock’ back from every fire… and the one he was bringing to Ryder from Yarnell WAS found in his burned-up backpack and returned to his widow, Juliann, just adds to ‘the story’.

      Very shortly after the tragedy itself, Sonny and Joy had the presence of mind to start ‘the tradition’ by marking the spot near the anchor point where they last saw the Granite Mountain Hotshots with a small pile of rocks.

      As they continued their hikes up there ( this is on land that had NOT been closed by Arizona Land Department ) they ( and others, like Travis Turbyfill’s father David ) kept adding rocks to that pile.

      Sonny just reminded us that he and Joy had done that… and I commented back that this would be an excellent way to honor those that died down near the deployment site itself… ESPECIALLY because of this other story about Andrew and what he would always do for his son Ryder.

      It was Juliann Aschcraft herself who first told this story publicly on her new BLOG.

      Here is a direct link to ‘that story’ down below in this Chapter 16 of this ongoing discussion of the Yarnell Hill Fire ( and the other tragedies SINCE that one )…

      http://www.investigativemedia.com/yarnell-hill-fire-chapter-xvi/#comment-309236

      Here is some of the ‘text’ from that thread down below…

      ———————————————————————————-
      >> Sonny said…
      >>
      >> WTKKT Well said. Thanks and that is exactly how the situation would be,
      >> A simple rock mound where visitors cast a rock would build a memorial that
      >> each person could remember them by. Joy and I started one along the trail
      >> going up and left a message if you pass place a stone in remembrance
      >> of the men.

      Yes. I have seen that rock pile memorial that you and Joy have already started ( at the last place you saw the men that day ) in many of the publicly released photos.

      I think it’s very fitting and respectful.

      When people visit a place where something tragic took place… there usually comes a moment when you have this strange urge to just DO something. Anything at all. The simple act of just ‘placing a rock’ there with your own hand is a timeless cross-cultural way to fulfill that need to just ‘do something’… and show respect.

      >> Sonny also said…
      >>
      >> It was a fitting way to show respect and although that monument
      >> is high up the mountain many left stones as they passed. Some
      >> left stones with messages on them. Over time the monument
      >> would build and be seen high above the manzanita–that is
      >> if all are allowed to pay their respects.

      I think that’s a great idea, Sonny.

      It would not surprise me if that sort of thing just starts to happen automatically when this ‘park’ opens to the public… but it would be better if it was actually ‘planned for’ by this committee. Over the years… it would become quite something to see.

      I don’t know if you knew about this… but the reason it would be even MORE fitting is because of something Andrew Ashcraft himself would always do.

      His son, Ryder, loved ROCKS.

      Andrew would always pick UP a rock at each fire he went to and bring it HOME to Ryder.

      When Juliann Ashcraft was presented with what was left from the contents of her husband Andrew’s field pack following the Yarnell tragedy… one of the things recovered from the pack was a ROCK from the Yarnell Fire that Andrew had already spotted and picked up that day and was the one he was bringing home to Ryder from Yarnell.

      Juliann Ashcraft tells the story herself far better than anyone else could.

      Here is Juliann Ashcraft’s BLOG entry about her visit with Holly Neill and her husband Wayne at the start of Juliann’s ‘Spread the Better’ 50 state tour..

      That visit, itself, became about ‘rock hunting’, and there are also some great photos on this same BLOG page.

      http://bebetterbrigade.blogspot.com/2015/04/holly-and-wayne-farmington-nm.html

      NOTE: ‘Ryder Ashcraft’ is one of Andrew and Juliann’s 4 children. He is the oldest of their 3 sons. He was born on June 4, 2007 and is now 8 years old.

      In Juliann’s own words…
      —————————————————————————
      Collecting rocks has been a meaningful past time in Ryder’s life. It is an activity that he shared with his Dad. Andrew would pick up a rock on each fire he went on as part of the Granite Mountain Hotshot Crew and bring it home to Ryder. It was a memory for him of the various fires he went on, and it gave Ryder something to look forward to each time that he watched his Daddy leave for another long work trip. When we received Andrew’s belongings after he lost his life in Yarnell, a beautiful gift for Ryder was found in the side pocket of his pack…a rock from the Yarnell Hill Fire that his Dad had picked out just for him before he passed away. Ryder’s Uncle T.J. (Andrew’s big brother) presented that rock to Ryder just as his Daddy would have if he were here. A cherished moment in Ryder’s life.
      —————————————————————————

      So… yea, Sonny.

      ‘Rocks’ are now (already) a ‘part of the legend’ of the ‘Yarnell Hill Tragedy’ and your idea is an excellent one.

      Ryder is only 8 years old.

      He will grow up to be a MAN someday… and imagine how pleased he might be ( as the years go by ) to discover that thousands and thousands of people keep (respectfully) stacking ‘rocks’ at the place where his Daddy died… just like his Daddy used to diligently bring rocks HOME to HIM.

      I just hope this can happen NEAR where those men died… and not have to be in some ‘other’ place and be just an ongoing monument to how ‘the public’ isn’t even ALLOWED to get ‘near’ that place.

      I hope that anyone who feels the urge to ‘stack a rock’ ( for Andrew, or ANY of those departed souls ) and wants it to be NEAR the spot where they died…

      …doesn’t have to THROW THE ROCK just to get it there.
      ———————————————————————————-

      PS: I have news for the ‘Yarnell Hill Memorial Site Board’.

      I think this ‘tradition’ is bound to continue down there near the deployment site… and there isn’t a damn thing they can do about it… so they might as well PLAN for it ( as in… pick a spot where people CAN / SHOULD place their own rock(s)… and encourage them to do it. )

      As the years go by… it will become quite something to see ( especially for Ryder ).

      Matter of fact… I certainly hope this architect doesn’t have his head so far up his ass that he thinks he’s going to import the ‘ric-rak’ for the (planned) short walls from Home Depot.

      That will just look absurd… to see some kind of non-native rock there.

      I understand that one of the reasons for these ‘short walls’ is because the deployment site itself is in a slight ‘depression’ out there and they have already been numerous ‘flooding’ incidents… but there is still no need to import the rock from Home Depot.

      Just use rock from elsewhere on-site… and then just let people ADD TO IT.

      There would even be that additional benefit for people visiting the site knowing that they are HELPING to prevent site erosion, as well as ‘respecting’ the site itself with ‘their small gift’. There could then be another ‘overflow’ pile started to handle the ( eventual ) overflow. when the short-walls get as high as they need to be.

      It’s also worth pointing out that if this Memorial Board does NOT raise the money they need through donations to carry out the ‘Bronze statues and Marble Crosses’ plan… they are going to have to PUNT and do something simpler ( and much cheaper ), anyway.

  3. Gary Olson says

    This is an open email to Arizona State Representative Karen Fann regarding the Granite Mountain Hotshot Memorial State Park Board and Granite Mountain Hotshot Memorial Park.

    Please allow me to give you an Executive Summary of the current problem with the direction the Yarnell Hill Memorial Site Board is going, just in case you don’t have time to read my entire email. I know you are a very busy representative of the people and I really get down in the weeds with some specific recommendations.

    EXECUTIVE SUMMARY

    The Arizona State Legislature ceded the authority to manage the Granite Mountain Hotshot Memorial State Park (hereafter referred to as the Park) to the Yarnell Hill Memorial Site Board (hereafter referred to as the Board). The Board is now managing this publicly owned resource in an arbitrary, capricious and selective manner based on the whims of the Board, most of whom are private citizens with absolutely no idea how to manage a public resource because they lack the knowledge, experience or training to do so.

    Furthermore, future access now appears to be under the direction of one specific board member… Mrs. Amanda Beno Marsh. I believe that Mrs. Beno Marsh is neither qualified nor emotionally fit to be making decisions whether or not I get to visit the new state park to honor and pay my respects to the memory of the Granite Mountain Hotshots.

    I don’t want to stand on a hill overlooking what has come to be known as the deployment site. I want to visit the same Park that thousands of firefighters, extended families of the Granite Mountain Hotshots and all of their guests get to visit.

    At a recent hearing Mrs. Beno Marsh make a number of disturbing statements that I believe very much call into question her fitness to have the lead in managing my or anyone else’s access to the Park and in fact, I think these statements disqualify her for that job. This hearing took place in the courtroom of Prescott Judge Arthur Markham on January 8, 2015, in the matter of a request for an injunction against harassment filed a week earlier by Ms. Amanda Beno-Marsh against Ms. Joy A. Collura.

    Perhaps most disturbing is the fact that Mrs. Marsh did not make the following verbatim statements extemporaneously, these statements were read from a PREPARED WRITTEN STATEMENT under oath to Judge Markham.

    “I am trying to protect the closure area and deployment site, and I am trying to put my world back together.”

    “I am a fragile widow of a national tragedy.”

    “I was married to the golden boy… and everyone seems to want a piece of him…”

    “Psychics [and mediums] in the closure area and in and around the deployment site trying to contact Eric and my friends… or crazy conspiracy theories [Who…me?].”

    “As Eric’s spouse… I should be allowed the dignity of not having to have that nonsense [psychics and mediums] around me… that she contacts me and tells me about her psychic… who calls herself “the lady of the dead”. How offensive is that?”

    “My husband DIED there.”

    “His was a scary ending… and very brutal… and it hurts me and horrifies me.”

    “It is a sacred place to me… and that is why I fight to protect the site.”

    I have included the entire transcript from this proceeding as an attachment to this email so you can read these statements and a number of other highly questionable and emotionally charged statements in their entirety and context.

    For example Mrs. Beno Marsh stated, “I don’t know if you’re familiar with the Helms Ranch… but it was a safe zone where Eric was trying to go to save his life.” This statement is completely irrational and is contrary to all of the available evidence. Is this the kind of misstatements and false representations that are going to be approved by the Board for the interpretive signs at the Park? Is it going to be a Park to commemorate lies, satisfy personal agendas and a monument to celebrate business and personal connections to corruptible politicians?

    Although psychics and mediums are probably not a very big part of your base, I think they are entitled to the same rights and privileges as every other citizen of this country…don’t you? And if I were a medium I would contact our founding fathers and ask them how they feel about this issue. What do you think they would say?

    And if I were a psychic, I would look into the future of anyone who violates the constitutional rights and discriminates against U.S. citizens based on whether or not they are psychics or mediums in an official capacity and I predict I would see problems ahead for those people…maybe from the ACLU or a like minded organization. Or maybe just from good people who believe the U.S. Constitution should apply to all citizens, not just Fundamentalist Christians.

    And I do have some good news for Mrs. Beno Marsh…I do not want a piece of “the golden boy”, I just want the same access to the Park that thousands of other people have currently have because of the Board’s “exemptions and special privileges policy.” It’s really a pretty simple request.

    I do know a little bit about personal trauma in my life. My father was killed in an underground uranium mine when he was crushed by heavy equipment and knocked down a very deep mine shaft in 1958. Given the frantic demand for large quantities of uranium this country needed at the time to produce thousands of nuclear bombs to protect us from the very real threat posed to our nation by the Soviet Union, and given the lack of safety standards to protect the men who dug the uranium from the earth, I think my father was a national hero as well…wouldn’t you agree?

    I believe my mother was entitled to her privacy as a private citizen following his death because she did not present herself as a public figure on a mission to turn the site of his death into a private memorial site using public funds. Mrs. Beno Marsh has forfeited that same right. Although I would not have put my mother in charge of a memorial site to my father even if they would have wanted to make one. My mother was an emotional wreck at the time and for the rest of her life when it came to the sudden, unexpected and traumatic death of her husband. She was not in any shape to be making public policy decisions based on her personal experience any more than Mrs. Beno Marsh is regarding the death of her husband.

    The arrogance of the Board is astonishing and is only surpassed by their naivety. But don’t worry, I am going to give you and them much of the guidance you so desperately need…pro bono. After all, you and so many others paid for all of my training and experience and I deeply appreciate your efforts. So, consider this is a small return on your investment and not an application for a consulting position…neither you nor the Board can’t afford me. My time is now…priceless.

    • Gary Olson says

      Part 2

      Most of this post is part of my on-line resume building to back up my opinions with my work history. If you already believe that I am a Subject Matter Expert (SME) in any area I claim to be…please skip most of this because it will bore you.

      I want to get out in front of this subject because I guarantee you that monitoring and protecting the Park is going to be a nightmare and a black hole for man hours. When I was working for the BLM (Washington Office) as a Supervisory Criminal Investigator (Sr. Special Agent), I worked out of the BLM Arizona State Office in Phoenix, for two different periods from 1992-1997 and from 2003-2006. During my first years (5 that seemed like 50) there was a BLM Special Agent assigned full time to dealing with hazardous waste dumping on BLM lands in Arizona, which comprises some 15 million acres.

      BUT…most of the dumping occurred around the Phoenix Metropolitan area because that is where the people are and there is a lot of BLM land around the Valley of the Sun proper. So the biggest problem associated with hazardous waste dumping were with the bad guys who would strip thousands of dollars worth of copper wire from commercial buildings and in the process do hundreds of thousands of dollars worth of damage to the facilities that they would then sell to metal scrap yards.

      A few years ago while living in northern Arizona I saw news programs where this was still occurring in the Valley Of The Sun and the news stories were specific to copper wire being torn out of area lighting at city parks. It is almost impossible to believe that there are those people out there who are willing to work that hard, and do that much damage, for so little in return. But they are out there.

      The problem for the BLM came when these same individuals would take the insulated copper wire out to the desert surrounding Phoenix, make a big pile out of it, pour accelerants on it and burn all of the insulation and other material off the copper wire itself. Pretty stupid…right?

      They would then take the copper wire to one of the recycling centers and sell it for a few pennies a pound leaving behind a hazardous waste site that needed to be cleaned up according to EPA standards. The problem was so bad and so destructive that the Phoenix Police Department hosted an interagency task force just to deal with this problem, to which the BLM Special Agent who specialized in investigating hazardous waste cases was assigned as a member.

      While I was the Forest (Chief) Law Enforcement Officer on the Santa Fe National Forest (which comprises approximately 3 million acres of land in New Mexico), part of my job with a few other officers was to do my best to put a band aid on the equivalent of a sucking chest wound to try and stem the illegal use of National Forest Land.

      This illegal use included the wholesale and commercial removal of forest products which included but was not limited to the following illegal activities, logging, cutting down trees for fire wood, vigas & latillas for Spanish style buildings and Christmas Trees, removal of boulders to be used for landscaping and commercial building, marijuana grows, methamphetamine manufacturing and clandestine runways for drug smuggling and tens of thousands of known archeological sites that were periodically looted for artifacts and just about anything else you can think of to make money either from forest products or by using National Forest Land.

      To try and get a handle on problems like these, I got heavily involved very early in my law enforcement career in the remote sensing and monitoring of areas by heavily using electronic monitoring equipment. This was due to limited manpower and budgets in addition to the size and the remoteness of the area I was responsible. My experience included ground breaking work very early because of my personal interest in, and fascination of…gadgets.

      My experience included extensive work with the Spartan, Qualtron, and Teleonics corporations just to name some of the major players in the industry where I received training in how to use their equipment at their factories. I was also heavily involved with the Sandia National Laboratories on the Kirkland Air Force Base in Albuquerque because they were taking the lead in a “swords to plowshares” program. This program used their scientists to develop commercial application for gadgets. This technology was then given to private industry to mass produce for profit. My experience using this type of technology continued throughout my drug interdiction work and other investigations for the remainder of my career.

      Two years after I retired, the military and a federal agency hosted a national interagency summit to discuss the status and the way forward for the use of remote sensing and monitoring near Washington D.C., in Shepherdstown, West Virginia. I was asked to attend this summit as a nationally recognized SME and to represent my former agency. My expenses were paid by the sponsoring agency.

      To make a long story short…I am an expert in the acquisition, application and deployment of remote site electronic monitoring systems. I also know how crazy people out there are and the lengths they will go to and the things they will do to acquire scrap metal defies all logic. And that is not even considering the fact that these metal statues that are being proposed may actually be worth something as art, although finding a buyer will be problematic but not an insurmountable challenge for the people I am talking about. They will steal it just because they can and for no other conceivable purpose.

      The monitoring of remote sites using electronic equipment can work under some very specific conditions and with a lot of luck. Sometimes the luck comes simply because in the process of maintaining the sensor network, law enforcement is more focused on the area and may randomly catch somebody in the act of vandalism. And based on my experience, the real value of sensors and cameras comes after somebody is caught by using them. Then the word gets out the entire area is bugged by the government and is being monitored by satellites to people who are used to watching fantastical things on movies and TV. Therefore, by catching one bad guy you will stop a thousand from even thinking about trying the same thing. Here are the conditions under which a sensor and camera monitoring network can work;

      1. Acquire the right equipment from a major manufacturer. It won’t be cheap, but it will be far less expensive than buying similar equipment from a start up that won’t still be in business when you need replacement parts, maintenance, or to add on your current network. I think given the location etc., that company will be Telonics in Mesa, Arizona, but it will probably require somebody to do some creative sole source purchasing.

      2. Field a highly trained team to professionally install and then maintain the right equipment. This needs to be done covertly during off hours. The right equipment needs to be constantly maintained because weather can expose it or animals can dig it up…and then it will be stolen. I know, that has happened to me more than once. The batteries also have a shorter life than the installers will like, especially after the equipment starts recording a lot of false positives.

      3. The right equipment needs to be constantly monitored…24/7, every day of the year.

      4. There needs to be a response team to check positive hits. And given the size of the area and the variety of access points, there will probably need to be more than one response team to adequately cover the area. Everyone participating in the installation, monitoring or response to this equipment needs to be prepared to deal with a lot of false positive hits, no matter how good your equipment is, or how professionally it is installed…a lot of false hits are inevitable.

      Hey…all I can say is that I had a relatively long career, especially under the circumstances and I have always had to deal with Adult Attention Deficit Disorder, I hated to be in an office, and I liked to get involved in a lot of things. In other words…I always went out looking for trouble, and sometimes I found it.

    • Gary Olson says

      Part 3

      Your Board lacks two very important and key components. The first is one is a senior Park Ranger who has been on the job for a long time to tell you I am right. And the second is a representative from the Yavapai County Sherriff’s Office to tell you everything they can’t afford to do for you because they lack both the manpower and the budget to provide a private security force for the Park. And if the Board is already consulting with senior rangers, they need to start listening to them.

      I really do think however, that the Board needs to scale back on their unrealistic and grandiose plans, “harden” the targets of opportunity they do keep, or move their entire project to the plaza around the Yavapai Courthouse in downtown Prescott or out to Station 7 so the investment everybody else is going to make in their personal pet project can be protected and managed. Several people on Investigative Media have discussed making a simple monument out at the site that I really like. Ask visitors to add a rock to a pile in memory of the Granite Mountain Hotshots out of their respect for them and their sacrifice. Move the statues and interpretive plaques to town so you can maintain and protect them.

      Have you ever been to any kind of interpretive park that has displays in unattended locations that haven’t been vandalized? I haven’t. And I have been to a lot of them and none of them were anywhere near as remote and isolated as the Park is going to be.

      There are only two kinds of displays in these parks, those that been vandalized and those that will be vandalized. I don’t know why there are so many very stupid and very bad people out there who do very stupid and very bad things, but there are.

      These people didn’t respect OUR GMIHC when they were alive, they sure as hell don’t respect their memory. They can’t…they don’t even respect themselves.

      The Board has always been confused by what one of their real problems is, and it isn’t the people like me who care, their problem is that precious few other people do care. Don’t look now, but the tragedy that befell the GMIHC is already a footnote in history. The world has moved on. And to a great extent, the wildland firefighting community has moved on. They have already had new disasters and there are more on the way! The Yarnell Hill Fire is yesterday’s news.

      And speaking of what one of the Board’s very real problem’s is, it is not people wanting to go to the site, their problem is that very few people WILL go to the site after the newness wears off. The Board’s best day will be the day of the Parks dedication and it will be all downhill from there. Another one of their very real problems is not the good citizens your law will turn away from the Park and discourage from even making the steep and very long trek through some God forsaken country.

      The good people will obey your signs and either not go up there or turn around at the top when you tell them to. The real problem is the bad people who will pause at your signs only long enough to deface them…if they don’t just tear them down. The Boards planned very expensive and beautiful statues will be defaced and vandalized, it’s only a question of when, if they are not stolen outright. What are they thinking? They are setting themselves up for another very expensive heartbreak.

      So…here is what they need to do, encourage as many good people as possible to go down to the deployment site. They want good people there as often as they can get them to go there. They can call them “site stewards” or “site monitors”, but whatever they call them, they need as many of them as they can get there to keep an eye on things and report to the authorities any bad things they have see just as quickly as they can, so corrective and enforcement action can be taken as quickly as possible. The more good people you have in the area will keep the bad people from doing things just because the area is remote and unattended.
      Although I might be wrong about ANYONE turning away regardless of what the signs say. Maybe they already got the answer they needed from Board member Darrell Willis. Mr. Willis stated there will be no way to keep people out of the area who want to go and pay their respects to the fallen… people will still go and there will still have be a problem. What comes next to satisfy the Widows need to have a private memorial site at taxpayer expense. Armed guards 24/7?

      So maybe you should do the hard job people elected you to do for the people, we are after all, a representative democracy, and you are the representative for all of the people, not just the area ranchers. Take steps to take the land needed to create a manageable Park through Imminent Domain.

      I remember when the State Route 51 (SR 51), also known as the Piestewa Freeway was called the little road that goes up through Dreamy Draw. If you followed that little road, it took you to a relatively isolated and sleepy part of the Valley of the Sun called Paradise Valley (Phoenix). I was also living in Paradise Valley and working at Central and Van Buren in downtown Phoenix at the time.

      Then the politicians who get paid to represent ALL of the people made some really hard decisions that tore apart the lives of tens of thousands of residents of that area. They took the land needed to build the Piestewa Freeway from the people who owned it, some of them had owned it and lived there for decades through Eminent Domain because that was the best thing to do for the majority of people and for the future growth of the Phoenix metropolitan area and Arizona in general.

      I think you should do the same thing to provide for greater access by vehicle to the deployment site. And as a side benefit for the state, it will give the state parks department a fighting chance to manage and protect our new Park. Ignore what the objections of Mr. Rex Maughan who has a net worth of more than 600 million dollars. None of us asked for this tragedy to occur near his precious ranch consisting of hundreds of thousands of acres of land that will not be affected by you doing the right thing.

      The following are some excerpts from the email I received from you on October 1, 2015.

      You said, “The purpose of my legislation two years ago was to preserve the site where our men perished and prevent development of a home, water tower, etc. at that site.”

      And I say, “I don’t want to develop the site, build a home or even a water tower out there. I want to visit the deployment site to pay my respects to the Granite Mountain Hotshots. In addition to the fact that I should be able to visit any publicly funded state park firefighters, the extended family members of the Granite Mountain Hotshots and all of their guest can any time I want to under normal operating hours.”

      You said, “The land was purchased from general fund dollars and the monies went to the State Land Trust Fund which pay for our schools. (one bucket to another so to speak).”

      And I say, “Your statement implies that since the park land was purchased with general fund dollars and the monies went to the Land Trust Fund which pay for our schools. (one bucket to another so to speak) that somehow public money was not spent to purchase the land or that even though public money was used to purchase the land, it really doesn’t count as an expenditure since it went from one state government agency to another. This is flawed logic and should not be used by those who are managing taxpayer money. General fund dollars are still tax dollars right? Those aren’t dollars the state got from the “Widows” are they…to create a private memorial site? ”

      You said, “The board to decide what to do with the purchased land was appointed by the Speaker of the House and the President of the Senate.”

      And I say, “This statement implies this matter is out of your hands and in fact was never in your hands since others are responsible for appointing the Board. Do you think that I or anyone else will ever believe that? That falls into the category of “how stupid do you think I am?” Wait…don’t answer that. I will answer it for you, I am not that stupid. You have been controlling everything from day one and your fingerprints are all over everything that has happened pertaining to the Board and the Park.”

      You said, “There are no tax monies involved with any improvements to the site and will only be accomplished through private donations.”

      And I say, “Donations to pay for improvements are still coming from the public…right? Do the people know that most of them will not even be allowed to visit the STATE PARK, except from afar and not be able to get anywhere near the deployment site? Or will these donors get exemptions to go to the deployment site just like all of the other thousands of exemptions the Board is currently planning on handing out? How much do I need to contribute to get a free pass to go to the deployment site. Has the Board assigned a specific number yet?”

      You said, “The architectural subcommittee of the board has come up with some amazing ideas for hiking path and the actual memorial site.”

      And I say, “Great. I want to see them up close just like all of the firefighters, extended family members and all of their guests are able to. And I hope to see them before they are defaced and stolen.”

      You said, “My comments and concerns are: The memorial should be constructed so people cannot trample on the “grave” sites;”

      And I say, “Your thinking is so seriously flawed on this particular issue, I hardly know where to start. The deployment site is not a “grave” site. No one is buried there. The deployment site is no more of a grave site and is no more sacred that the pit where my father died or anyone else’s loved ones have died on a public highway or in or on any other public place. Get real!

      You said, “I am concerned about potential trash, bathroom use etc. at the memorial site and possible medical emergencies which might occur with no way to easily assist.”

      And I say, “What…none of the thousands of firefighters, their families, friends and other guests; the extended family members of the Granite Mountain Hotshots and their friends and other guests in addition to all of the other people who will get automatic exemptions…people like you and Arizona Governor Doug Ducey, and your friends, family and other guests are handicapped, will ever need to use a bathroom, or have the potential to have a medical emergency? Once again…you and YOUR Board need to get real!

      You said, “Lastly, Yavapai County has graciously agreed to provide maintenance so I would like to make sure it is as maintenance free as possible to avoid spending excessive tax dollars.”

      And I say, “Yavapai County maintenance money is still public money whichever pot it comes out of. The small special interest group of very greedy and very selfish people who want a private memorial site paid for with public money will NOT be paying for the maintenance of their special place…right?”

      P.S., I am aware of the latest report from the Prescott Courier that a Conceptual Design has been approved that will allow the public to go to the deployment site but that does not change the much of the focus of my email and I will wait until these plans are formalized before I make any plans to go to the site since the latest word I got from the Yarnell Fire Chief of all people is that I was not allowed to go there even though thousands of people are currently allowed to go there under the current arbitrary and capricious rules the Board has established. Even if the public is allowed to eventually go to the deployment site, you and the Board still should can still learn a great deal from my email.

      Your welcome, Gary

      • says

        As I am reading Gary’s comments about Rex Maughan’s ranch property near the tragedy I am wondering if air attack was utilized on June 30,21013 to protect his property instead of moving to Yarnell to protect homeowners and citizens there during the afternoon hour when the fire made a run on Yarnell.

    • Sonny says

      The following is not completed: more to be said and I am having to copy past since what I write is deleted after so many paragraphs. I will try again and here is the paste:You are correct Gary Olsen. I wish your comments were posted on National News for all to see and understand what is going on. If people started hearing these things then we would be assured the actions being taken to benefit a select few would be nipped in the bud. Certainly those men were working for the National interests. The mistakes they made need to be understood by all and not covered up. They will still be National heroes in spite of their lack of intelligent methods on how to fight wild fires. But the site must be open to all and ideally will be made into a training ground on how not to fight wild fires and how to stay alive if you do want to be a wild land fire fighter. Many lives can and will be saved if that happens. I think also there will be a separation of wild land fire fighting and structure firefighting. Nineteen lives lost ought to accent that statement.

      Yes indeed, Amanda Marsh ought to step out of this thing and I was witness to how her emotional impairment has skewed her thinking–that trial of Joy Collura proved that and you spelled it out in a positive manner. The facts are there.

      I have tried to get the FBI involved. Joy has an FBI clearance and carries that card and has for years. She has an impeccable record, not a person to be denied any right in any court when she strictly adheres to the laws of the land including even buying and keeping a permit to walk on state lands. I helped her hand out care packages after the Yarnell Fire and know firsthand of her concern for other people. I think nearly every person in Yarnell will attest to her good character and wiliness and heart for other people–especially those in need and she did not exclude Amanda Marsh and considered Amanda’s harsh and unfair treatment of her as part of Amanda’s grieving process. I felt it went too far as have the uninformed people that want to restrict what ought to be a National site to only a select few.

      Indeed your father was a hero and you spelled it out correctly. Uranium mining is the most dangerous form of underground mining there is. I say that from experience. I likely worked in the very shaft your father died in. Just out Grants. NM is Section 30 where I worked for Kerr McGhee and I also worked for United Nuclear at Church Rock, NM and finally at Standard Oil of Ohio mines near Seboyeta, NM. All those mines are over a thousand feet in depth and usually we worked the 900 foot levels. Going to work in a Uranium mine is like going to war and I always regarded it as so. You never knew in what shape you might be coming back in–and hopefully it would not be as a stiff and many were killed in those mines. Some while I was working and some I helped rescue. Two I remember four miners had to lift huge slabs off the miners while I dragged them out from under. We sent those up in a bullet, a small body cage, up a 900 foot air drill hole to the surface. A rock blast as they were drilling pinned them down. Broken ribs and internal injuries on both but one returned to mining a year later. You see that Uranium ground can not be sounded and has to be bolted and wire meshed on every foot of ground. Even then cave ins and rock blasts were common and open ground an absolute no-no if you wanted to stay alive. Dips in the road and unventilated areas were a great danger. Radon gas is so heavy it collects in low spots and if concentrated in those areas and breathed in, it can’t be breathed out so you suffocate. Four miners died early on when two died and two ran in to drag them out and they too fell dead to the gas.

      Now we needed that Uranium and it was believed a vital element needed for bombs to keep the Commies at bay. We did not want their way of restricting freedoms to become our way of life. The government was intent on getting plenty high grade to do this. Signs that restricted hot areas due to poor ventilation would come down on swing and graveyard shifts. Mine inspectors only worked day shift and were not a problem on other shits. So if you weren’t maimed or killed you could look forward to radiation sickness or cancer. But the good country we are, those miners now who do have cancer get a consolation prize of 150 grand to help them and their families through the turmoil. . The cost of medical help is way beyond that but hopefully the miner had insurance to help–even co pay–Joy paid 48 thousand on Blue Cross co pay on a rattle snake bite she had. Yet sadly most of the miners never collect and then if you worked after 1973 that benefit does not apply. So few get it but then most never live long enough to go though the red tape getting it. See how it works, that radiation sticks to carbon for smokers and sticks to calcium in the bones. In time the cells next the radiation metastasize and po0ff goes the magic dragon–you just don’t know when. A mine cave in on August 1979 ended my career. They would not hire me back at any Uranium mine due to injuries I had incurred–eventhough I tried more than once to get back on. Maybe miners or like soldiers — they want to go back to what they care to do.

      So we know so many have died in the service of their country. It is nice to have plaques and names on walls in their honor. But to restrict those plaques and walls on public property to a select few is like allowing only a few Russians to view Lenin’s body.

      As far as Karan Fan goes, she is a nice person and I bet once she views what Gary has revealed and considers that the Constitution and Bill of Rights would come before a select few and guarantee our right as citizens to visit any public site then she will do some deep thinking on the subject. If Gary’s writings and books go public then all officials in government and especially political persons will start looking to what is good for all and not just a few. To restrict that area goes against all good sense and the American public, if informed of what really is taking place here, will not be happy. Freedoms infringed like this sets a precedent we do not want.

      • Gary Olson says

        Thank you Sonny.That means a lot coming from you. You can talk the talk, because you spent a lifetime walking the walk! And of course I can’t take all of the credit for my email to Fann, I just summed up what a lot of people on this thread have said and the work they have done. This effort has truly been a community (a very small one) effort. May God Bless America and Hero’s like you Sonny!

        • Gary Olson says

          Oh…and one more thing. And I am going to try and keep this short but… I think the whole “sacred ground” bullshit can be traced back to that idiot Paxton and Willis moaning about hallowed ground and God having another purpose for those 19 men.

          Kind of a Jesus Christ being crucified on Golgatha and then being resurrected and then risen to heaven kind of…Fundamentalist Christian…thing.

          I don’t know about you, but I view that fucking pit where my father died as cursed…not sacred.

          That is how I feel about the entire Yarnell Hill Fire…it was cursed. Simply having visitors who go to pay their respects and honor the sacrifice of the Granite Mountain Interagency Hotshot Crew throwing a rock onto a pile on the deployment site is more than that Godforsaken piece of hell on earth deserves.

          Can you imagine how impressive that funeral cairn would look like after a few years? It really appeals to my Norseman blood and heritage!. What a magnificent way to honor our Granite Mountain Hotshots.

          Take the statues to town and pose them beside Bucky O’Neil on the plaza. We should honor the bravery (however misplaced) of our crew like MEN (non-gender specific)!

          P.S. Take the statue of the lookout and cut it’s fucking head off and weld it to its ass!

  4. Gary Olson says

    Part 1

    Open email (This is a draft only, comment on or email me anything you think I should add) to Arizona State Representative Karen Fann regarding the Granite Mountain Hotshot Memorial State Park Board and Granite Mountain Hotshot Memorial Park.

    Please allow me to give you an Executive Summary of the current problem with the direction the Yarnell Hill Memorial Site Board is going in just in case you don’t have time to read my entire email. I know you are a very busy representative of the people and I really get down in the weeds with some specific recommendations.

    EXECUTIVE SUMMARY

    The Arizona State Legislature ceded the authority to manage the Granite Mountain Hotshot Memorial State Park (hereafter referred to as the Park) to the Yarnell Hill Memorial Site Board (hereafter referred to as the Board). The Board is now managing this publicly owned resource in an arbitrary, capricious and selective manner based on the whims of the Board, most of whom are private citizens.

    Furthermore, future access now appears to be under the direction of one specific board member… Mrs. Amanda Beno Marsh. I believe that it is apparent that Mrs. Beno Marsh is neither qualified nor emotionally fit to be making decisions whether or not I get to visit the new state park to honor the Granite Mountain Hotshots.

    I don’t want to stand on a hill overlooking the what has come to be known as the deployment site. I want to visit the same Park that thousands of firefighters, extended families of the Granite Mountain Hotshots and all of their guests get to visit. Although I personally think the actual deployment site itself should be fenced off and no one should go walking around inside that enclosure.

    At a recent hearing Mrs. Beno Marsh make a number of disturbing statements that I believe very much call into question her fitness to have the lead in managing my access to the Park and in fact, I think these statements should disqualify her for that job. This hearing took place in the courtroom of Prescott Judge Arthur Markham on January 8, 2015, in the matter of a request for an injunction against harassment filed a week earlier by Ms. Amanda Beno-Marsh against Ms. Joy A. Collura.

    Perhaps most disturbing is the fact that Mrs. Marsh did not make the following verbatim statements extemporaneously, these statements were read from a PREPARED WRITTEN STATEMENT under oath to Judge Markham.

    “I am trying to protect the closure area and deployment site, and I am trying to put my world back together.”

    “I am a fragile widow of a national tragedy.”

    “I was married to the golden boy… and everyone seems to want a piece of him…”

    “Psychics in the closure area and in and around the deployment site trying to contact Eric and my friends… or crazy conspiracy theories.”

    “As Eric’s spouse… I should be allowed the dignity of not having to have that nonsense [psychics and mediums] around me… that she contacts me and tells me about her psychic… who calls herself “the lady of the dead”. How offensive is that?”

    “My husband DIED there.”

    “His was a scary ending… and very brutal… and it hurts me and horrifies me.”

    “It is a sacred place to me… and that is why I fight to protect the site.”

    I have included the entire transcript from this proceeding as an attachment to this email so you can read these statements in their entirety and context.

    Although psychics and mediums are probably not a very big part of your base, I think they are entitled to the same rights and privileges as every other citizen of this country…don’t you? And if I were a medium I would contact our founding fathers and ask them how they feel about this issue. What do you think they would say? And if I were a psychic, I would look into the future of anyone who violated the constitutional rights and discriminates against U.S. citizens based on whether or not they were psychics or mediums in an official capacity and I predict I would see problems ahead for those people…maybe from the ACLU or a like minded organization.

    And I do have some good news for Mrs. Beno Marsh…I do not want a piece of “the golden boy”, I just want the same access to the Park that thousands of other people have. It’s really a pretty simple request.

    I do know a little bit about personal trauma in my life. My father was killed in an underground uranium mine when he was crushed by heavy equipment and knocked down a very deep mine shaft in 1958. Given the frantic demand for large quantities of uranium this country needed at the time to produce thousands of nuclear bombs to protect us from the very real threat posed to our nation by the Soviet Union. And given the lack of safety standards to protect the men who dug the uranium from the earth, I think my father was a national hero as well…wouldn’t you agree?

    I believe my mother was entitled to her privacy as a private citizen following his death because she did not present herself as a public figure on a mission to turn the site of his death into a private memorial site using public funds. Mrs. Beno Marsh has forfeited that same right.

    • Gary Olson says

      Part 2

      The arrogance of the Board is astonishing and is only surpassed by their naivety. But don’t worry, I am going to give you and them much of the guidance you so desperately need…pro bono. After all, you and so many others paid for all of my training and experience and I deeply appreciate your efforts. So, consider this is a small return on your investment and not an application for a consulting position…you can’t afford me.

      Most of this post is part of my on-line resume building to back up my opinions with my work history. If you already believe that I am a Subject Matter Expert (SME) in any area I claim to be…please skip most of this because it will bore you.

      I want to get out in front of this subject because I guarantee you that monitoring and protecting the GMH Memorial State Park is going to be a nightmare and a black hole for man hours. When I was working for the BLM (Washington Office) as a Supervisory Criminal Investigator (Sr. Special Agent) I worked out of the BLM Arizona State Office in Phoenix, for two different periods from 1992-1997 and 2003-2006. During my first years (5 that seemed like 50) there, there was a BLM Special Agent assigned full time to dealing with hazardous waste dumping on BLM lands in Arizona, which comprises some 15 million acres.

      BUT…most of the dumping occurred around the Phoenix Metropolitan area because that is where the people are and there is a lot of BLM land around Phoenix. So the biggest problem associated with hazardous waste dumping were the bad guys who would strip thousands of dollars worth of copper wire from commercial buildings and in the process do hundreds of thousands of dollars worth of damage to the facilities that they would then sell to metal scrap yards.

      A few years ago while living in northern Arizona I saw news programs where this was still occurring in the Valley Of The Sun and the news stories were specific to copper wire being torn out of area lighting at city parks. It is almost impossible to believe that there are those people out there who are willing to work that hard, and do that much damage, for so little in return. But they are out there.

      The problem for the BLM came when these same individuals would take the insulated copper wire out to the desert surrounding Phoenix, make a big pile out of it, pour accelerants on it and burn all of the insulation and other material off the copper wire itself. Pretty stupid…right?

      They would then take the copper wire to one of the recycling centers and sell it for a few pennies a pound leaving behind a hazardous waste site that needed to be cleaned up according to EPA standards. The problem was so bad and so destructive that the Phoenix Police Department hosted an interagency task force just to deal with this problem, to which the BLM Special Agent who specialized in investigating hazardous waste cases was assigned as a member.

      While I was the Forest (Chief) Law Enforcement Officer on the Santa Fe National Forest (which comprises approximately 3 million acres of land in New Mexico), part of my job with a few other officers was to do my best to put a band aid on the equivalent of a sucking chest wound to try and stem the illegal use of National Forest Land.

      This illegal use included the wholesale and commercial removal of forest products which included but was not limited to the following illegal activities, logging, cutting down trees for fire wood, vigas & latillas for Spanish style buildings and Christmas Trees, removal of boulders to be used for landscaping and commercial building, marijuana grows, methamphetamine manufacturing and clandestine runways for drug smuggling and tens of thousands of known archeological sites that were periodically looted for artifacts and just about anything else you can think of to make money either from forest products or by using National Forest Land.

      To try and get a handle on problems like these, I got heavily involved very early in my law enforcement career in the remote sensing and monitoring of areas by heavily using electronic monitoring equipment. This was due to limited manpower and budgets the size and the remoteness of the area I was responsible. My experience included ground breaking work very early because of my personal interest in, and fascination of…gadgets.

      My experience included extensive work with the Spartan, Qualtron, and Teleonics corporations just to name some of the major players in the industry where I received training in how to use their equipment at their factories. I was also heavily involved with the Sandia National Laboratories on the Kirkland Air Force Base in Albuquerque because they were taking the lead in a “swords to plowshares” program. This program used their scientists to develop commercial application for gadgets. This technology was then given to private industry to mass produce for profit. My experience using this type of technology continued throughout my drug interdiction work and other investigations for the remainder of my career.

      Two years after I retired, the military and a federal agency hosted a national interagency summit to discuss the status and the way forward for the use of remote sensing and monitoring near Washington D.C., in Shepherdstown, West Virginia. I was asked to attend this summit as a nationally recognized SME and to represent my former agency. My expenses were paid by the sponsoring agency.

      To make a long story short…I am an expert in the acquisition, application and deployment of remote site electronic monitoring systems. I also know how crazy people out there are and the lengths they will go to and the things they will do to acquire scrap metal defies all logic. And that is not even considering the fact that these metal statues that are being proposed may actually be worth something as art, although finding a buyer will be problematic but not an insurmountable challenge for the people I am talking about. They will steal it just because they can and for no other conceivable purpose.

      The monitoring of remote sites using electronic equipment can work under some very specific conditions and with a lot of luck. Sometimes the luck comes simply because in the process of maintaining the sensor network, law enforcement is more focused on the area and may randomly catch somebody in the act of vandalism. And based on my experience, the real value of sensors and cameras comes after somebody is caught by suing them. Then the word gets out the entire area is bugged by the government and is being monitored by satellites to people who are used to watching fantastical things on movies and TV. Therefore, by catching one bad guy you will stop a thousand from even thinking about trying the same thing. Here are the conditions under which a sensor and camera monitoring network can work;

      1. Acquire the right equipment from a major manufacturer. It won’t be cheap, but it will be far less expensive than buying similar equipment from a start up that won’t still be in business when you need replacement parts, maintenance, or to add on your current network. I think given the location etc., that company will be Telonics in Mesa, Arizona, but it will probably require somebody to do some creative sole source purchasing.

      2. Field a highly trained team to professionally install and then maintain the right equipment. This needs to be done covertly during off hours. The right equipment needs to be constantly maintained because weather can expose it or animals can dig it up…and then it will be stolen. I know, that has happened to me more than once. The batteries also have a shorter life than the installers will like, especially after the equipment starts recording a lot of false positives.

      3. The right equipment needs to be constantly monitored…24/7, every day of the year.

      4. There needs to be a response team to check positive hits. And given the size of the area and the variety of access points, there will probably need to be more than one response team to adequately cover the area. Everyone participating in the installation, monitoring or response to this equipment needs to be prepared to deal with a lot of false positive hits, no matter how good your equipment is, or how professionally it is installed…a lot of false hits are inevitable.

      Hey…all I can say is that I had a relatively long career, especially under the circumstances and I have always had to deal with Adult Attention Deficit Disorder, I hated to be in an office, and I liked to get involved in a lot of things. In other words…I always went out looking for trouble, and sometimes I found it.

      • Gary Olson says

        Part 3

        Your Board lacks two very important and key components. The first is one is a senior Park Ranger who has been on the job for a long time to tell you I am right. And the second is a representative from the Yavapai County Sherriff’s Office to tell you everything they can’t afford to do for you because they lack both the manpower and the budget to provide a private security force for the Park. And if the Board is already consulting with senior rangers, they need to start listening to them.

        I really do think however, that the Board needs to scale back on their unrealistic and grandiose plans, “harden” the targets of opportunity they do keep, or move their entire project to the plaza around the Yavapai Courthouse in downtown Prescott or out to Station 7 so the investment everybody else is going to make in their personal pet project can be protected and managed. Several people on Investigative Media have discussed making a simple monument out at the site that I really like. Ask visitors to add a rock to a pile in memory of the Granite Mountain Hotshots out of their respect for them and their sacrifice. Move the statues and interpretive plaques to town so you can maintain and protect them.

        Have you ever been to any kind of interpretive park that has displays in unattended locations that haven’t been vandalized? I haven’t. And I have been to a lot of them and none of them were anywhere near as remote and isolated as the Park is going to be.

        There are only two kinds of displays in these parks, those that been vandalized and those that will be vandalized. I don’t know why there are so many very stupid and very bad people out there who do very stupid and very bad things, but there are.

        These people didn’t respect OUR GMIHC when they were alive, they sure as hell don’t respect their memory. They can’t…they don’t even respect themselves.

        The Board has always been confused by what one of their real problems is and it isn’t the people like me who care, their problem is that precious few other people do care. Don’t look now, but the tragedy that befell the GMIHC is already a footnote in history. The world has moved on. And to a great extent, the wildland firefighting community has moved on. They have already had new disasters and there are more on the way! The Yarnell Hill Fire is yesterday’s news.

        And speaking of what one of the Board’s very real problem’s is, it is not people who wanting to go to the site, their problem is that very few people WILL go to the site after the newness wears off. The Board’s best day will be the day of the Parks dedication and it will be all downhill from there. Another one of their very real problems is not the good citizens your law will turn away from the Park and discourage from even making the steep and very long trek through some God forsaken country.

        The good people will obey your signs and either not go up there or turn around at the top when you tell them to. The real problem is the bad people who will pause at your signs only long enough to deface them…if they don’t just tear them down. The Boards planned very expensive and beautiful statues will be defaced and vandalized, it’s only a question of when if not stolen outright. What are they thinking? They are setting themselves up for another very expensive heartbreak.

        So…here is what they need to do, encourage as many good people as possible to go down to the deployment site. They want good people there as often as they can get them there. They can call them “site stewards” or “site monitors”, but whatever they call them, they need as many of them as they can get there to keep an eye on things and report to the authorities any bad things they have see just as quickly as they can, so corrective and enforcement action can be taken as quickly as possible.

        Although I might be wrong about ANYONE turning away regardless of what the signs say. Maybe they already got the answer they needed from Board member Darrell Willis. Mr. Willis stated there will be no way to keep people out of the area who want to go and pay their respects to the fallen… people will still go and there will still have be a problem. What comes next to satisfy the Widows need to have a private memorial site at taxpayer expense. Armed guards 24/7?

        So maybe you should do the hard job people elected you to do for the people, we are after all, a representative democracy, and you are the representative for all of the people, not just the area ranchers. Take steps to take the land needed to create a manageable Park through Imminent Domain.

        I remember when the State Route 51 (SR 51), also known as the Piestewa Freeway was called the little road that goes up through Dreamy Draw. If you followed that little road, it took you to a relatively isolated and sleepy part of the Valley of the Sun called Paradise Valley (Phoenix). I was also living in Paradise Valley and working at Central and Van Buren in downtown Phoenix at the time.

        Then the politicians who get paid to represent ALL of the people made some really hard decisions that tore apart the lives of tens of thousands of residents of that area. They took the land needed to build the Piestewa Freeway from the people who owned it, some of them had owned it and lived there for decades through Eminent Domain because that was the best thing to do for the majority of people and for the future growth of the Phoenix metropolitan area and Arizona in general.

        I think you should do the same thing to provide for greater access by vehicle to the deployment site. And as a side benefit for the state, it will give the state parks department a fighting chance to manage and protect our new Park. Ignore what the objections of Mr. Rex Maughan who has a net worth of more than 600 million dollars. None of us asked for this tragedy to occur near his precious ranch consisting of hundreds of thousands of acres of land that will not be affected by you doing the right thing.

        The following are some excerpts from the email I received from you on October 1, 2015.

        You said, “The purpose of my legislation two years ago was to preserve the site where our men perished and prevent development of a home, water tower, etc. at that site.”

        And I say, “I don’t want to develop the site, build a home or even a water tower out there. I want to visit the deployment site to pay my respects to the Granite Mountain Hotshots. In addition to the fact that I should be able to visit any publicly funded state park firefighters, the extended family members of the Granite Mountain Hotshots and all of their guest can any time I want to under normal operating hours.”

        You said, “The land was purchased from general fund dollars and the monies went to the State Land Trust Fund which pay for our schools. (one bucket to another so to speak).”

        And I say, “Your statement implies that since the park land was purchased with general fund dollars and the monies went to the Land Trust Fund which pay for our schools. (one bucket to another so to speak) that somehow public money was not spent to purchase the land or that even though public money was used to purchase the land, it really doesn’t count as an expenditure since it went from one state government agency to another. This is flawed logic and should not be used by those who are managing taxpayer money. General fund dollars are still tax dollars right? Those aren’t dollars the state got from the “Widows” are they…to create a private memorial site? ”

        You said, “The board to decide what to do with the purchased land was appointed by the Speaker of the House and the President of the Senate.”

        And I say, “This statement implies this matter is out of your hands and in fact was never in your hands since others are responsible for appointing the Board. Do you think that I or anyone else will ever believe that? That falls into the category of “how stupid do you think I am?” Wait…don’t answer that. I will answer it for you, I am not that stupid. You have been controlling everything from day one and your fingerprints are all over everything that has happened pertaining to the Board and the Park.”

        You said, “There are no tax monies involved with any improvements to the site and will only be accomplished through private donations.”

        And I say, “Donations to pay for improvements are still coming from the public…right? Do the people know that most of them will not even be allowed to visit the STATE PARK, except from afar and not be able to get anywhere near the deployment site? Or will these donors get exemptions to go to the deployment site just like all of the other thousands of exemptions the Board is currently planning on handing out? How much do I need to contribute to get a free pass to go to the deployment site. Has the Board assigned a specific number yet?”

        You said, “The architectural subcommittee of the board has come up with some amazing ideas for hiking path and the actual memorial site.”

        And I say, “Great. I want to see them up close just like all of the firefighters, extended family members and all of their guests are able to. And I hope to see them before they are defaced and stolen.”

        You said, “My comments and concerns are: The memorial should be constructed so people cannot trample on the “grave” sites;”

        And I say, “Your thinking is so seriously flawed I hardly know where to start. The deployment site is not a “grave” site. No one is buried there. The deployment site is no more of a grave site and is no more sacred that the pit where my father died or anyone else’s loved ones have died on a public highway or any other public place. Get real!

        You said, “I am concerned about potential trash, bathroom use etc. at the memorial site and possible medical emergencies which might occur with no way to easily assist.”

        And I say, “What…none of the thousands of firefighters, their families, friends and other guests; the extended family members of the Granite Mountain Hotshots and their friends and other guests in addition to all of the other people who will gave automatic exemptions…people like you and Arizona Governor Doug Ducey, and your friends, family and other guests are handicapped, will ever need to use a bathroom, or have the potential to have a medical emergency? Once again…you and YOUR Board need to get real!

        You said, “Lastly, Yavapai County has graciously agreed to provide maintenance so I would like to make sure it is as maintenance free as possible to avoid spending excessive tax dollars.”

        And I say, “Yavapai County maintenance money is still public money whichever pot it comes out of. The small special interest group of very greedy and very selfish people who want a private memorial site paid for with public will NOT be paying for the maintenance of their special place…right?”

        • Gary Olson says

          P.S. Don’t worry about all of the typos and grammatical mistakes, I will catch most of them over the next couple of days. Let’s focus on the big picture.

          • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

            Reply to Gary Olson post on October 25, 2015 at 6:56 pm

            >> Gary Olson said…
            >>
            >> P.S. Don’t worry about all of the typos and grammatical
            >> mistakes, I will catch most of them over the next couple
            >> of days. Let’s focus on the big picture.

            The ‘big picture’ ( regardless of the known shenanigans that have been taking place ) is still “Will any member of the PUBLIC be allowed to get anywhere near the actual ‘deployment site’ at this PUBLIC park?”

            Well… 14 hours ago… we got a ‘glimpse’ of the ‘answer’ ( but still not the full story ).

            The ‘Yarnell Hill Memorial Site Board” held its last meeting just about 48 hours ago on Friday afternoon, October 23, 2015.

            THIS time… at least one person from the media attended and we now DO have a ‘report’ ( sorta / kinda ) of what went on at this last meeting.

            Apparently… Amanda Marsh DID complete her ‘unsupervised’ informal ‘polling’ of the ‘family members’ which was meant to be the big determining factor with regards to ‘public access to the park’ and what that was/will ultimately ‘look like’.

            And it DOES appear that some level of sanity has ‘ruled the day’.

            Amanda Marsh (apparently) reported that ( of course ) SOME of the family members wanted full-blown FENCING ( with razor wire? ) and a LOCKED GATE around the deployment site… and that at least ONE of the ‘families’ ( Zuppiger ) would have preferred if nothing at all was done to the site ( no crosses, nothing ).

            But ( also apparently ) it seems obvious now that MOST of the family members realize that the PUBLIC has every right to get as close to the deployment site as they have always been allowed to get… but as the article below proves… there are still some ‘games’ being played here with the ‘design’.

            The article that just appeared 14 hours ago explains what happened… but there are still no detailed minutes from either this latest meeting OR from the LAST one ( which was the one where Amanda Marsh was supposed to have presented her ‘informal polling’ results ).

            It looks like the public WILL be allowed to get ‘near’ the actual deployment site… but the actual MARBLE crosses ( yes… we’ve gone from simple wooden crosses to actual cemetery-like MARBLE crosses ) will be ‘protected’ by 19 small retaining walls made of JAGGED ROCK and ( possibly ) connected by access-preventing CHAINS or landscaping.

            At the top of the following article about last Friday’s meeting is an actual photo of the architect showing everyone what these ’19 walls of JAGGED ROCK’ are going to look like… and how they will be surrounding the actual 19 MARBLE CROSSES and meant to discourage/prevent access to the actual crosses.

            The Prescott Daily Courier
            Article Title: ‘Conceptual’ design OK’d for Hotshot memorial
            Published: 10/25/2015 6:02:00 AM by Scott Orr
            http://dcourier.com/main.asp?SectionID=1&SubSectionID=1086&ArticleID=151189

            From the article…
            ——————————————————————
            Photo Caption: Architect Bill Gauslow describes the memorial he designed for the 19 Granite Mountain Hotshots.

            PRESCOTT – The Yarnell Hill Memorial Site Board on Friday, Oct. 23, approved what it called a “conceptual” design for a monument to the 19 fallen Granite Mountain Hotshots.

            The Hotshots were killed on state trust lands just west of Yarnell while battling the Yarnell Hill wildfire on June 30, 2013.

            Since the State Parks Department won its bid to buy the land for a memorial park in June, there have been discussions among many concerned parties, including the families of all 19 firefighters, about how they should be honored at the site where they died.

            Friday, architect Bill Gauslow presented his design to the board. It consists of 19 white marble crosses, each placed where a man fell, surrounded by 19 low walls, spaced a short distance apart, and built of rip-rap rock.

            The wall-or any means of restricting access to the crosses-has been the most contentious part of the plan.

            Gauslow said some families would have preferred a fence with a locked gate, but he wasn’t happy with that idea, calling it “a little crude.”

            “We think of this as the best solution, because it is the most intimate,” he said, noting that the jagged nature of rip-rap would likely keep most people out.

            “It acts as a way of telling the people, ‘Well, you can see the names, but why go in there?'” he said, calling it a “subliminal” tactic.

            A chain might be placed between the wall segments, or desert vegetation could be used, Yarnell Fire Chief Ben Palm said.

            Amanda Marsh, widow of crew leader Eric Marsh, said Gauslow had done an “awesome” job of educating the families about his plans.

            Marsh noted that one family, the survivors of firefighter Garret Zuppiger, would have preferred that nothing at all was built at the site.

            But, as several board members said, there was consensus among the families that this plan would be the most appropriate.

            Other elements will include interpretive materials at the parking lot, which will be important, because, as State Forester Jeff Whitney pointed out, “a fairly high percentage of visitors” will likely not go any further than that.

            There will be markers every tenth of a mile along the 1.9-mile trail that leads from the lot to an overlook of the memorial site, and each marker will feature one of the firefighters.

            Arizona State Parks Director Sue Black said the entire project would end up costing about $2 million, most of which is expected to come from donations.
            ——————————————————————

            SUMMARY: Since we still can’t see the meeting minutes and this reporting was ‘Twitter style’ and minimal information… it’s worth pointing out that there are still a lot of ‘assumptions’ here.

            It would APPEAR that this Board is going to allow the PUBLIC to go down to the deployment site… but there is still no OFFICIAL word about that. AZ Forester Whitney seems to be saying (happily?) that the self-limiting factor will be the hike itself and that by the time people reach that spot up on the ridge where they can only say “Oh… look… honey… see those little crosses way down there? That must be where that big-bad-fire came right after those poor men and killed them”… that MOST people will be so fucking TIRED by then that they won’t even bother trying to go down to the site.

            And there is still no word if there will even be any kind of TRAIL leading ‘down there’ to help any member of the public accomplish that feat.

            It’s still all just about the ‘trail’ coming in from Highway 89 and how THAT is where there will be all these ‘informational kiosks’ and whatnot.

            So there is still a LOT that isn’t known yet about what the ACTUAL ‘public access’ to this park is going to look like.

            And something tells me that ( even though it violates Arizona Law ) we are NEVER going to see the ACTUAL ‘minutes’ of this latest meeting… nor will we ever see the minutes of the PREVIOUS meeting held on September 18, 2015.

            • Gary Olson says

              Great info, but FYI, I am going to proceed with my email to Fann under the assumption that I am not going to be allowed to go to the site since that was the last official word I head from the Yarnell Fire Chief of all people, while thousands of other people are allowed to go to the site according to the arbitrary and capricious rules established by the Board.

              • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

                Reply to Gary Olson post on
                October 25, 2015 at 8:55 pm

                >> Gary Olson said…
                >>
                >> Great info, but FYI, I am going to proceed with
                >> my email to Fann under the assumption that
                >> I am not going to be allowed to go to the site
                >> since that was the last official word I head from
                >> the Yarnell Fire Chief of all people, while thousands
                >> of other people are allowed to go to the site
                >> according to the arbitrary and capricious rules
                >> established by the Board.

                And I think you should. ANYONE has the right to write to elected officials anytime they want… about anything they want… and to also ask hard questions. It comes with the JOB.

                There are some FACTS in your proposed email that ‘this Board’ needs to hear… especially regarding the ‘pretense’ that this is actually some kind of ‘cemetery’. The new MARBLE crosses are NOT ( in my opinion ) appropriate and are a step in the wrong direction regarding that ‘issue’ alone.

                And until you hear from this BOARD about what the REAL RULES for the ‘public’ are going to be ( which I, believe, is exactly what Chief Ben Palm told you to do in writing )… and some assurances are given that there won’t actually be claymore mines IN or IN-BETWEEN these jagged-rock retaining walls… then there could still be ‘access policies’ being put in place that they want to hide from the public until the very last minute and ‘surprise’ everyone.

                We seem to know for a fact now that SOME of the family members ( and I think we can all guess who SOME of the SOME are ) don’t give one flying fuck if anyone who has actually PAID for this public park ever gets to access the most interesting ( and historic ) parts of it.

                So until we see some sort of OFFICIAL announcement about what the ‘access rules’ will be for this PUBLIC park… those ‘family members’ ( and people actually on the Board who support their viewpoint ) might still be influencing the process in ways that shouldn’t be allowed.

                I don’t know if it’s worth pointing out in your email… but beyond the fact that this Board has always been breaking Arizona Law by NOT publishing ‘minutes’ in a timeframe established by Arizona Open Meetings Laws… the actual blurd they publish at the bottom of each of their agendas is also a total crock of shit.

                At the bottom of even the latest ‘agenda’ for the October 23 meeting is the following ‘blurb’ pointing out all the places where this Arizona PUBLIC Board was REQUIRED to also be posting the ‘meeting notice’ and the ‘agenda’…

                It (actually) says this…

                ———————————————-
                G. ADJOURNMENT

                Pursuant to Title II of the American with Disabilities Act (ADA), Yarnell Hill Memorial Site Board does not discriminate on the basis of a disability regarding admission to public meetings. Persons with a disability may request reasonable accommodation by contacting Arizona State Parks at (602) 542-4174. Requests should be made as early as possible to allow time to arrange the accommodation.

                SIGNED: Sue Black, Chairman

                ( This Agenda has been ) Posted at….

                Arizona State Parks 1300 W. Washington Street
                Phoenix, AZ and h t t p ://azstateparks.com/committees/Yarnell.html

                Arizona State Forestry Division 1110 W. Washington Street #110 Phoenix, AZ and h t t p s ://azsf.az.gov

                Arizona State Capitol 1700 W. Washington Street Phoenix, AZ and w w w.azleg.gov

                Arizona Department of Administration 100 N. 15th Ave. Phoenix, AZ and h t t p s ://doa.az.gov/meeting-notices
                ———————————————-

                Complete crock of shit.

                The ONLY place that ‘Meeting Notice’ and the accompanying AGENDA was ( or is even now ) posted was on the FIRST website mentioned… the ‘Yarnell Hill Memorial Site’ Advisory Board website at Arizona State Parks.

                There actually is a prescribed ‘remedy’ in the Arizona Public Boards and Arizona Open Meeting Laws regarding what should happen with any Arizona Public Board that continues to violate those laws.

                The ‘solution’ ( as per Arizona Law ) is for that PUBLIC Board to cease operation and be disbanded.

                • Gary Olson says

                  Thank you for agreeing with me. And in other words, I just don’t have the energy or the interest to wait to and possibly re-write my entire email based on the new information.

                  Karen Fann can accept my email in the spirit it was written, or she can print it out…roll it up into a little ball…and shove it up her ass. I think the end result will be the same regardless so I don’t really give a fuck.

                  Besides, I already put my self flagellation whip away for the night and I don’t want to get it out again.

                  I don’t know how you do it, you really put some time into this project compared to me, and I put way too much of my life into it. WTF…Over?

                  • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

                    I just think it’s fascinating that the very guy you corresponded with, and who is the HEAD of the ‘access’ subcommittee for this PUBLIC park, appears to be the one who is STILL coming up with the ‘ideas’ for LIMITING access to places in this PUBLIC park.

                    According to the Daily Courier article… it was Chief Ben Palm himself still offering ways to ‘limit access’ even at the last meeting…

                    “A chain might be placed between the wall segments, or desert vegetation could be used, Yarnell Fire Chief Ben Palm said.”

                    I still think claymore mines would get the job done as far as Ben Palm and some of the family members are concerned… but they probably don’t actually have the money for that.

                    • Gary Olson says

                      Ya, good point, and of course I really do give a fuck but I can only blog about it.

                      I was so frustrated I have already sent my revised email to Fann, but I may send an addendum with your suggestion just for the hell of it.

                      I may even get some more suggestions.

  5. Gary Olson says

    And as usual I am probably assuming everyone knows what I am talking about when I gave my opinion in response to Marti’s question below.

    “Clinging to their Guns and their God” was a statement made by President Obama to describe blue collar workers to a group of rich left wing intelligentsia at a private fund raising event in San Francisco (I think) that was secretly recorded. It was not one of his finest moments.

    I could have also have answered Marti’s question by simply saying that I think most wildland firefighters come from rural areas in the Western United States and therefore tend to be very conservative and center right republican types.

    I also should point out that I believe the republicans would not have been able to give away the candy store to the richest of the rich over the past 40 years if the fucking democrats had not helped them because they too have been in pockets of Wall Street, big banks, the filthy rich, etc.

    And as I have also repeatedly stated, I already have my piece of the pie, it’s the rest of you I am worried about. Somebody needs to fix it. Democratic Socialist Bernie Sanders for President? Now he would be a hoot representing the U.S. on the world stage!

  6. WantsToKnowTheTruth says

    **
    ** Grant Scott McKee ( Granite Mountain Hotshot Grant Quinn Mckee’s father )
    ** rips author Kyle Dickman a new one regarding his book “On The Burning Edge”.

    >> Reply to Gary Olson post on October 22, 2015 at 9:44 pm
    >>
    >> We have already had one book on the Yarnell Hill Fire published that I didn’t
    >> read but certified I am told as pure unadulterated bullshit. We now have a second
    >> book and probably a movie being developed with our hapless hero as the technical
    >> consultant. What do you think the odds are that book and movie will be an even
    >> bigger crock of bullshit.

    Speaking of ‘books full of bullshit’… just 48 hours ago, Grant Scott McKee, the FATHER of deceased Granite Mountain Hotshot Grant Quinn Mckee, ripped author ( and former Hotshot ) Kyle Dickman a new one regarding his book “On the Burning Edge”.

    Mr. McKee’s comments just appeared at the bottom of an article about that Kle Dickman book that appeared back in May of this year over on Bill Gabbert’s ‘Widlfire Today’ site.

    It’s even worse than I thought ( The bullshit in Dickman’s book ).

    Mr. Dickman details just SOME of the ‘bullshit’ that Dickman was slinging ( in his book ) regarding his son… who Dickman actually chose to make a CENTRAL CHARACTER in the book itself.

    The book actually BEGINS by detailing his son’s first day at work with Granite Mountain.

    But Dickman never, ever spoke to Mr. McKee. Not once. Not even to tell him he was even working on a book that would feature his son or to even verify the ‘stories’ he was going to tell about his son as if they were FACTS.

    Mr. McKee’s comments just appeared at the bottom of the following article…

    http://wildfiretoday.com/2015/05/25/errors-in-a-review-of-a-book-about-the-yarnell-hill-fire/

    And here is what Mr. McKee had to say just 48 hours ago…

    ——————————————————————————————————
    Grant Scott McKee on October 20, 2015 at 4:31 pm said:

    Well , this comment might come pretty late in the game people, but I’m the father and the uncle of 2 of the members in that crew of 19 heros.

    I’m Grant Quinn Mckee’s dad……Grant Scott McKee.

    It has taken me along time to finish the book ( at 2-3 pages a day), because it’s that painful.

    I was never contacted by Mr. Dickman . I had no knowledge he was writing such a book, and as most people can see, he used my son as the focal point in the story line. The first 2 words in the book , chapter1, is my son and my name.

    The story should have had more about ALL 20 guys in the crew, and he definitely took liberties on the events of the history of my sons life.

    My son was NEVER a latch key kid and that was quit offensive.

    Furthermore, May 18th was his birthday , so he was only 21 years old for less than 6 weeks at the time of the accident.

    Mr. Dock man stated that my son work as a busboy/ waiter before taking on the new job as a Hotshot, as well as was a bartender. My son was not yet old enough to make drinks and he knew obsolete lay nothing about being a bartender.

    That’s just a few things, as there are many more details that are not factual.

    One would think that if a person is going to write about someuone’s child, that they would take the time to ask the people who raised him. My sons life was not hard for him growing up as he portrayed it to be. He had a few moments that were difficult, but nothing out of the ordinary for most children in today’s world. He was well taken care of and loved. And he was well aware of how much he was loved. He never wanted for anything.

    Lastly …. I will add that it’s pretty much a no class move that he never even sent a copy to the families he wrote about.

    I guess that says a lot about his compassion and appreciation for making a living on this tragity and disrespecting the families by add lobbing on his facts. There is a word for that… A few words come to mind….. Cheap , selfish, and stupid.

    Dope should be more careful about what they say and write, cause once in awhile , they are the chance of offending the wrong type of people who are not so friendly under these conditions. You know what I’m sayin?

    Thanks to all that took the time to read this novel. I do apologize.
    ——————————————————————————————————

    And in the last 48 hours there have been additional comments in response to Mr. McKee…

    SIDENOTE: In addition to the expected comments from Bill Gabbert himself, Holly Neill and Pat Byrnes, a commenter using the name ‘MartyH’ also added a detailed summary of the RAWS weather data that can/should have actually prevented this tragedy if anyone had been bothering to pay any attention. I thought this might actually be a comment coming from former Granite Mountain Hotshot Superintendent ( and Safety Officer at Yarnell ) Marty Cole… ( and maybe it actually is )… but Marty Cole’s middle initial appears to be ‘C’ and not ‘H’.

    * On October 20, 2015 at 5:18 pm, Bill Gabbert said…
    Thanks for sharing your thoughts, Mr. McKee — and I am sorry for your loss.

    * On October 20, 2015 at 6:42 pm, Pat Byrnes said…
    Some still respect your son’s service and sacrifice and still hope some lessons from Yarnell will be learned and heeded. We can only hope to reduce the number of families suffering in the future. I am sorry that reckless writing hurt your family again, Mr. McKee.

    * On October 20, 2015 at 11:11 pm, Holly Neill said…
    Thank you Mr. McKee. It is good to hear your voice. I am sorry about this additional grief.

    * On October 23, 2015 at 11:37 am, MartyH said…
    I just came across this discussion today. Not knowing whether anyone else will read it doesn’t stop me from wanting to leave a couple of comments. Re: Halt/reduction in controlled burning on National Forest lands. The budget reductions to the USDA Forest Service each year from 1980 to 1988 were primary reasons for curtailing prescribed fire work. I left the fuels management position (GS-462) on the LPF SBRD and went to work as a dispatcher in 1980. Re Yarnell fire behavior and weather: The RAWS data for the nearest station to the Yarnell was available for anyone to view online on the day of the fatalities and afterward. The RAWS date for the prior days was also posted online. I hope that that data has been reviewed by everyone who writes about the incident. Four WX parameters stand out; Wind speed, wind direction, temperature and solar radiation. The changes in those four changed in the same pattern each of the two days before and on the day of the fatality incident. I didn’t copy and save the charts but they were so significant I remember them very well.

    Each afternoon at roughly the same time each day the wind shifted almost 180 degrees and increased in speed. Shortly after that the solar radiation measured by the RAWS dropped abruptly. It seems very likely to me that the RAWS was located where the smoke column from the fire shifted in the afternoon to obscure the panel – causing the reduction in solar radiation recorded by the instruments. Given two previous days of shifts in rate of spread and direction of fire spread at the same period of the afternoon every firefighter should have been aware of the dangers on the day of the fatalities. I’m terrifically saddened by the tragic loss of firefighters lives – especially in a situation that I feel was so completely unnecessary and preventable.

    • Sonny says

      Thanks for reminding us that the GMHS crew and the Yarnell fire bosses would have known the dangerous weather conditions and their afternoon change of direction the previous two days before. The pattern was there so it leaves unanswered questions concerning why they would attempt a suicide mission by dropping off into that brush.

      A couple things I ought to mention here–When I saw the raging fire I was adamant to leave the area and head to the west side of the mountains for safety reasons. Joy being the hard head she was intended to take an alternative route that would have cost her life. The route she wanted to take would have been on the south rim of that basin and she believed she would have had time to beat the fire advance if it changed–I think instead she was of a mind that it would not change. I left her there and topped the ridge and at that time already felt the wind change albeit a light breeze. It was something you could not feel down lower where she was but I realized I better go back and drag her out of there. That afterall turned out to be the same place on the two track the GMHS descended. Joy had her boots off enjoying the fireworks and resting. It was apparent that she did not recognize the danger she was in. Should that wind change pick up in velocity it would come up that canyon and even running uphill on the two track trail one would likely not succeed in escaping. PVC pipe that was standing in a support of rock in he middle of that unused two track actually melted down and that pink ribbon I found near the center of the two track looked like a meteorite and in fact that is what entered my mind when I picked it up. I could only identify it after it partially crumbled and exposed the interior pink color. Being on it would have been like being next the grader where Donut thought to deploy–the grader itself had its floor plate turned blue and the tires burned off, yet there was more clearing there than the two track. Fortunately for us we did have an earlier start than the GMHS and I could see the way that fire was eating and its dangerous proximity to where we were. I am glad that my insistence that Joy get herself together and move out with me worked. When later Dr. Ted Putnam explained how difficult it was to convince a couple young firefighters from taking orders from radio transmissions to go down into an area that would have killed them I understood how easily people not acquainted with how weather and uphill fire advances can cause a fire to quickly over take people.

      A second thing that I had experienced earlier and why Joy and I argued very near where the men died. Early that morning we were there and the shortest route was straight up to the two track. I wanted to get out of that manzanita patch as quickly as possible. At that time the fire was still high on the mountain in the boulders and about two miles from us working slowly down the mountain hindered by the rocky terrain and much sparser vegetation. I allowed that one mainly to teach Joy a lesson. Considering that we had left Oak Park #15 at 3:30 am, it took until 8;;:30am to break out at the track coming from Sesame Street that continued up to the two track. The route Joy chose and I followed continued around the north end of the ridge that makes up the basin. I figure it took us at least three and one half hours to go from just above Helms and through that brush to where we argued and went Joy’s way. Now the actual distance is not more than a mile and a half the way I estimate it. One walking should be able to go at a rate of 3mph, yet we were going at the rate of one mile in three hours. That gives you an estimate of how conditions were in that lower valley brush and something that every young fireman ought to experience before attempting to outrun a fire in that situation. One reason I strongly feel that should be a training field for young firemen –that would be a true memorial in honor of those by learning from and seeing the mistakes they made right on the site. It would be certain to save lives and give respect to safety rules if men were taught in that manner.

      Yes there is lots of bullshit from these early writings. I do hope men of knowledge and experience write and get published on this fire. I am strongly interested in what people of the wisdom of Gary Olsen, Bob Powers, Dr. Ted Putnam and the likes would write. They are on top of this and not influenced by the sentimental mentality nor political and job pressures held over them by superiors. They have no superiors and walk on their own merits. These are the ones who will educate and save future firefighters from disaster, and the ones we ought to recognize for their frank and honest expertise.

      • Joy A. Collura says

        You learn so many things here on IM…yet when I want to learn jargon or fire terminology I have always appreciated going as well to Bill Gabbert’s website or Dr Ted Putnam or Moses and the Neil family since the fire.

        MY REPLY BELOW IN CAPS
        “Sonny says
        OCTOBER 24, 2015 AT 8:06 AM
        Joy being the hard head she was intended to take an alternative route that would have cost her life.” PLEASE WORLD FACTOR IN THAT THERE IS NEWS FOOTAGE THAT HAS PAUL SILVIA’S HOME ON FIRE AND THE TIMING TO THAT CAN HELP DETERMINE IF SONNY IS SPOT ON BUT YOU SEE THIS IS THE KIND OF THING I TOO HAVE BEEN GUILTY ON HERE SPEAKING ON PERCEPTIONS AND EMOTIONS AND FRUSTRATIONS AND SPEAKING TOO FAST AND PREMATURELY ON TOPICS VERSUS THOROUGHLY AND CAREFULLY LOOKING INTO IT BEFORE POSTING IT OR A HUGE ERROR ON MY PART IS I COULD OF WENT TO PERSON DIRECT BEFORE AIRING IT PUBLIC AND THAT I OWE A HUGE THANK YOU TO A FEMALE MEDIA PERSON FOR MAKING ME AWARE WHEN I ASKED ADVICE WHAT WAS BEST TO DO AND THE REPLY WAS BE DIRECT—IT WAS NOT UNTIL THAT MOMENT I REALIZED THAT IS USUALLY HOW I USE TO BE BUT NOT ALWAYS IN THE AFTERMATH OF THE YHF AND FOR THAT I AM VERY SORRY. I LOOK BACK AND I FEEL VERY BAD BY MY ACTIONS TOO. IT CAUSED HARM. IN THE FUTURE I WILL NOT POST UNLESS I CAN SEE HOW IT CAN HELP REACH CLARITY IN THE YHF. I WON’T EVEN POST I HAVE CRUCIAL INFORMATION UNLESS I CAN SHARE THE INFORMATION IN FULL COMPLETION. JOHN DOUGHERTY DOES HAVE THE LOCATION BUT NOT FULL NAME OF PERSON IN QUESTION. I WILL NOT SAY ANYTHING UNLESS IT IS “POSITIVE AND UPLIFTING” AND CAN NOT CAUSE ANYONE HARM OR DOUBTS…I JUST GET FRUSTRATED WHEN I GET FED BITS AND PIECES BUT FOR NOW I DO NOT WANT EVEN BITS AND PIECES—YOU NEED A PERSON TO RUN THINGS ACROSS—FINE BUT I WILL NOT EVEN MENTION YOUR NAME UNTIL WE COME TO THE CONCLUSION YOU ARE SET TO COME FORWARD. IT IS OBVIOUS THERE IS MORE INFORMATION OUT THERE BUT NOT GOING TO ENGAGE IN ANYMORE OF IT UNLESS WE CAN SHARE IT ALL PUBLIC. BY DOING IT I CAUSED PEOPLE TO HAVE MISJUDGMENTS AND I ALSO MISJUDGE IN THIS AND CREATED BARRIERS BASED ON LACK OF COMMUNICATION. THE PUBLIC DISPLAYS OVER TIME I DID TO HOLLY AND OTHERS WERE NOT ALWAYS APPROPRIATE AND I COULD OF CHOOSE TO STAY QUIET OR TRY HER/OTHERS DIRECT BUT I ALLOWED ME TO “FEEL” MY WAY VERSUS TRYING TO WORK THROUGH IT CREATING A BIGGER BARRIER—MY BARRIERS ARE KAPUT EVEN WITH SONNY. I JUST WANT TO PUT IT ALL BEHIND—FRESH SLATE—COME TO INVESTIGATIVE MEDIA TO SHARE NEW INFORMATION AND NO HALF ASS STUFF OR RIDDLES—I WILL WORK ON “ME” GARY OLSEN–K. BEING IN THE PUBLIC IS ALL NEW TO ME SO BEEN AN ODD TWO YEARS PLUS AND I MAKE BLUNDERS APPARENTLY. I FEEL VERY BLESSED TODAY TO HAVE AN AREA FILLED WITH LIGHT VERSUS A BURDEN.

        Joy had her boots off enjoying the fireworks and resting. I DID HAVE MY BOOTS OFF AND WAS AT REST AS MY FEET SWELLED UP BUT I WAS NOT “ENJOYING” THE FIREWORKS JUST SONNY’S PERCEPTION FROM MY LACK OF EAGERNESS TO GET MOVING IN HIGH HEAT TEMP. AT 1:11PM AFTER ALL MY HIKES THAT WEEK.
        They are on top of this and not influenced by the sentimental mentality nor political and job pressures held over them by superiors. WELL COULD IT BE SONNY THEY ARE RETIRED TOO AND CAN HAVE MORE OF A PUBLIC VOICE VERSUS CURRENT ONES
        These are the ones who will educate and save future firefighters from disaster, and the ones we ought to recognize for their frank and honest expertise. THERE IS ALOT OF DIFFERENT KINDS OF FOLKS WHO CAN EDUCATE THE WORLD WITH EXPERTISE SONNY—WOOTEN AND MORRISON…MURRAY TAYLOR…JOHN MACLEAN…ALL THE CURRENT HIGHER UPS…ERIC SCHLETT…BOBBY HALTON…JENNIFER RADICS-JOHNSON…DANIEL CHACON…TRAVIS FORD…KODAS…JIM ROTH…DAVID TURBYFILL…HOLLY NEIL…ALOT…I KNOW ON THIS…WE ALL LEARN FROM OTHERS DIFFERENTLY SO JUST BECAUSE SONNY GRASPS WHAT GARY OR BOB SAYS AND NOT SAY ANOTHER…THAT IS SONNY YET I TEND TO FIND COMFORT AND EASE IN ASKING FERNANDA QUESTIONS AT TIMES—I TRUST HER ADVICE AND HER WISDOM AND SHE DELIVERS THINGS IN A WAY I GRASP IT. SHE IS A BLESSING. I DON’T ALWAYS KNOW HOW TO COMPREHEND INFORMATION I GET SO WHEN IT GETS PUBLIC IT MAY SEEM LIKE A RIDDLE AS GARY SAID YET NOT INTENTIONAL.
        YET WHY DO WE ALL COME TO I M?
        I COME TO HOPEFULLY READ NEW INFORMATION OR GIVE NEW INFORMATION AND FOUND MYSELF BE A TERRIBLE PERSON CALLING PEOPLE OUT WITHOUT DIRECTLY GOING TO THEM SO I LEARNED I CAN BE SUCH A SCHMUCK.
        I HOPE THE CORE TO I M IS SAFETY MATTERS—
        MAYBE WE CAN BECOME IN SOME SENSE AN ORGANIZED STRUCTURE LIKE ICS—
        AND I WILL MAKE MY FUTURE INVESTIGATIVE SEARCH IN RE-MAKING THE LIST OF THE AMOUNT OF DEATHS AND SONNY CAN WORK ON THE RETARDANT DEEPER…WE ALL HAVE A PART IN THIS AFTERMATH OF THE YHF…I AM JUST GOING TO MAKE MY PART FROM THIS DAY FORWARD STRONGER IN BEING UPLIFTING- LESS RIDDLES AND MORE DIRECT…IT IS ALL A LEARNING EXPERIENCE…
        I MEAN BEFORE MEETING SONNY I MADE MY PLANS FOR THE DAY FOR WHAT I WANTED EVEN IF IT WAS TO HELP OTHERS—IT WAS STILL MY DAY MY WAY—AND WHEN I WENT ON THE TRAILS WITH SONNY IT BEGAN TO BE FOREIGN TO ME AND SO THAT HAS BEEN A LEARNING JOURNEY TOO YET HE IS A GENUINE GOOD MAN.

        I READ SOMEWHERE NOT SURE WHERE ABOUT DATA ON WEATHER THOSE 3 DAYS…SOME THINGS ARE PREDICTABLE LIKE SOME PEOPLE’S PERSONALITY TRAITS BUT NOT MOTHER NATURE MIXED WITH WEATHER—NOPE. SORRY…
        I CAN GO IN PREDICTING WITH CAUTION ALL DAY LONG…YET UNTIL MORE MISSING INFORMATION COMES FORWARD I WILL NOT SUPPORT MARSH AND STEED’S PART THAT DAY BECAUSE I HAVE A STRONG SENSE SOMEWHERE IN THAT RESTRICTED AREA IS EVIDENCE NOT YET FOUND ALONG WITH ALL THE MISSING ELEMENTS TOO NOT YET SURFACED. I KNOW WHERE TO LOOK TOO…JUST NOT GONNA UNTIL PEOPLE ARE ALLOWED…MAYBE IT WILL OPEN UP NEXT SUMMER BUT IT ALWAYS FLOORED ME HOW COME SAIT NEVER HIKED WITH US AND WITH OSHA WE NEVER GOT TO FULLY SHOW THE AREA LIKE WE WANTED TO—
        OKAY I SAID ENOUGH— GOOD NIGHT!

        ;

    • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

      Typo in the original comment above.

      I type ‘Dickman’ instead of ‘McKee’ at the start of THIS paragraph…

      “Mr. Dickman details just SOME of the ‘bullshit’ that Dickman was slinging ( in his book ) regarding his son… who Dickman actually chose to make a CENTRAL CHARACTER in the book itself.”

      That paragraph SHOULD have read like this…

      “Mr. MCKEE details just SOME of the ‘bullshit’ that Dickman was slinging ( in his book ) regarding his son… who Dickman actually chose to make a CENTRAL CHARACTER in the book itself.”

    • Marti Reed says

      It’s late and I’m exhausted, and I just read this. Thank you WTKTT!!

      It’s pretty clear that Kyle Dickman has an agenda (some of which I agree with) and that his agenda seems to have overtaken his commitment to the truth about what happened on this fire. His disrespect to the family of his central character is truly offensive.

      I have a minutia-related question.

      You wrote:

      “Pat Byrnes, a commenter using the name ‘MartyH’”

      How do you know that to be true?

      A couple of weeks back I discovered that Pat Byrnes lives in Albuquerque.

      I’m confused by this.

      • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

        Reply to Marti Reed post on October 25, 2015 at 8:39 pm.

        >> Marti Reed said…
        >>
        >> It’s late and I’m exhausted, and I just read this. Thank you WTKTT!!
        >>
        >> It’s pretty clear that Kyle Dickman has an agenda (some of which
        >> I agree with) and that his agenda seems to have overtaken his
        >> commitment to the truth about what happened on this fire. His
        >> disrespect to the family of his central character is truly offensive.

        Well… that’s the ongoing story of this ‘still burning fire’, isn’t it?

        This is what happens when you have INVESTIGATORS with ‘agendas’ who don’t even know how to be professional investigators… and AUTHORS with ‘agendas’ who don’t even know how to be professional authors.

        You end up with a LOT of ‘bullshit’ flying around… and other people who are still interested in the TRUTH ( like some public forums I know of ) just trying to keep the toilet paper rolling and make sense of the ‘published’ material.

        Speaking of ‘people who know how to investigate’. ( and do it for a living )…

        Did you know that part of the SETTLEMENT agreement between Arizona Forestry and ADOSH was that NONE of the ADOSH investigation material can ever be used in a ‘court of law’ if there ends up being further litigations against Arizona Forestry RE: the Yarnell Fire?

        That’s going to be hard to enforce if push comes to shove… but it’s just one more display of the absolute arrogance of Arizona Forestry to think they could even make that a ‘requirement’ as part of a ‘settlement’..

        >> Marti also said…
        >>
        >> I have a minutia-related question.
        >>
        >> You wrote:
        >>
        >> “Pat Byrnes, a commenter using the name ‘MartyH’”
        >>
        >> How do you know that to be true?
        >>
        >> A couple of weeks back I discovered that Pat Byrnes lives in Albuquerque.
        >>
        >> I’m confused by this.

        There was a COMMA there after Pat Byrnes, and I wasn’t implying that the next named commenter ( MartyH ) WAS ‘Pat Byrnes’… but my bad. I worded that whole paragraph badly.

        I probably should have said it like this…

        ————————————————————–
        And in the last 48 hours there have been additional comments in response to Mr. McKee…

        SIDENOTE: In addition to the expected comments from Bill Gabbert himself,
        there have been THREE other ‘commenters’

        1) Holly Neill
        2) Pat Byrnes
        3) A commenter using the name ‘MartyH’

        Commenter ‘MartyH’ also added a detailed summary of the RAWS weather data that can/should have actually prevented this tragedy if anyone had been bothering to pay any attention. I thought this might actually be a comment coming from former Granite Mountain Hotshot Superintendent ( and Safety Officer at Yarnell ) Marty Cole… ( and maybe it actually is )… but Marty Cole’s middle initial appears to be ‘C’ and not ‘H’.
        ————————————————————–

        Also… I shouldn’t have hit ‘return’ and put a blank line before the last paragraph of that previous post.

        The entire last paragraph that begins with…

        “Each afternoon at roughly the same time each day the wind shifted almost 180 degrees and increased in speed…”

        …was not ME jumping back in with a comment. That entire paragraph that then goes on to talk about the RAWS weather data was still the commenter named ‘MartyH’ finishing his own comment(s) over there at Wildfire today.

  7. Gary Olson says

    One more loose thread I forgot about. Marti asked why so many wildland firefighters think President Nobama is an Obumma. Well…it is the same reason why there are so few African or Asian Americans and Metrosexuals fighting wildfire.

    Wildland firefighters come primarily (almost exclusively) from rural areas in the Western United States. You know…those areas where they cling to their Guns and their God and they don’t like having a Kenyan of the Muslim Faith who is a closet communist masquerading as a democratic socialist as the illegitimate Commander In-Chief and POTUS.

    I can legitimately use POTUS in a sentence because I rode in the Presidential Motorcade as the Departmental Representative with the presidential security detail one time. It was however, for that democratic socialist Bill Clinton who oversaw this country’s greatest period of capitalist growth in my lifetime when there was a chicken in every pot.

    In fact, I used to be one of THEM (I was even a closet Metrosexual at one time) but then I woke up one day and realized the fucking republicans had given away the candy store to the top one percent of the top one percent while gutting the middle class because those of us who clung to our Guns and our God were busy chasing after shiny things the Koch brothers fired out of their asses for chaff and not paying attention. So I am different now, although I still cling to my Guns and God, especially my Guns…and my God. Gun Nut? Yep…I r 1.

    So…does that answer your question?

    • Marti Reed says

      Yeah, I getcha. And thank you for responding to that with that.

      I’ve spent today picking my way through the Benghazi Committee videos. Such total BS. BTW, I live-blogged the Libyan Revolution on Daily Kos. I supported it until, well, it slowly and painfully devolved into, well, something else. But I was present, totally, via my extensive Middle East/North Africa Twitter list, when the attack on the compound occurred. The Benghazi Committee is not an investigation, either.

      I still hope wildland firefighters figure out how to get themselves paid what they deserve, including benefits and pensions, even though, apparently, a bunch of them seem to have bought into certain thought-bubbles enough to believe that all that socializm is terrible for everybody else but them; and i have no idea what those “hillbillies” (who think the 10 and 18 are “hillbilly”?) think about that “libtard” thingy about “humanly-created climate change” even as they fight the fires that the 21st century is throwing at them.

      And, I have to admit, I have read wildland firefighter’s pages on facebook that narrate a totally opposite understanding of what is going on. I acknowledge that it’s a complex bunch, as aren’t we all.

      And Mike Malloy is right now talking about Stone Mountain. Exponential irony.

      OK I am brain-dead, and I haven’t even responded to what you wrote downstream.

      Namaste.

      • Marti Reed says

        So, regarding the Yarnell Hill Fire, here’s my current issue. And this relates to your questions about that photo that was under discussion, at least tangentially.

        There are two trucks related (via their decals) to the Arizona Central West Zone Incident Management Team parked near the Ranch House Restaurant parking lot that I don’t know who are associated with.

        That means there are two people associated with those trucks (and, therefore the Arizona Central West Zone Incident Management Team) who were in that parking lot after the deployment, that I don’t know who they were. And I don’t know why they were there.

        Does that matter?

        Namaste.

        • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

          Reply to Marti Reed post on October 23, 2015 at 10:06 pm

          >> Marti said…
          >>
          >> there are two people associated with those trucks (and,
          >> therefore the Arizona Central West Zone Incident Management
          >> Team) who were in that parking lot after the deployment, that
          >> I don’t know who they were. And I don’t know why they were there.
          >>
          >> Does that matter?

          It certainly does.

          ADOSH had already concluded before they even finished their FIRST round of interviews that that workplace was chaotic and life-threatening… and they cited at least FOUR potential ( and actual ) entrapment situations in that workplace that afternoon because of the ‘chaos’….

          …but once they ‘pegged the meter’ on the fines they were even legally allowed to impose ( which they then DID impost on Arizona Forestry )… they lost the ability to investigate the incident fully.

          It still matters WHO all of these ‘voices’ are that were ‘talking’ directly to Eric Marsh and Jesse Steed during the time the SAIT said no one was talking directly to Eric Marsh or Jesse Steed.

          Bea Day herself was never interviewed ( along with HER OPS people Jason Clawson, Aaron Hulburd and KC ‘Bucky’ Yowell ).

          No one from the ‘already arriving’ Type 1 team was ever interviewed.

          They all SHOULD have been in order to get the FULL picture of what was really going down that afternoon.

            • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

              Reply to calvin post on October 24, 2015 at 6:04 am

              >> calvin asked…
              >>
              >> Does anyone have all the pictures from the ranch
              >> house organized chronologically?

              I do not ( not ALL of them… from ALL sources )… but the majority of the RHR photos that we have ( taken by Tom Story ) are, in fact, already in ‘chronological order’ as they appear in the Online Dropbox folder.

              The ‘Tom Story’ photos taken at the Ranch House Restaurant are still in this online SAIT investigation folder…

              https://www.dropbox.com/sh/02ue6bnjp6nazkm/AACUc_jX8WNPOrznsNSlYV-ea/Photos%20and%20Video/Tom%20Story%20Photos/201303_Yarnell_Hill_02?dl=0

              They start on the 21st row down from the top, with image 201303_Yarnell_Hill_1677.jpg.

              The timestamps are accurate ( and in chronlogical order )… but remember that Tom Story’s ‘Canon EOS 5D Mark II’ camera timestamp was about 1 minute BEHIND the real time that day.

              Here’s how we know that…

              The following TWO pictures captured the moment when Brian Frisby and Trueheart Brown were actually pulling out of the RHR parking lot in their Polaris Range UTV to begin their ‘ground rescue mission’…

              201303_Yarnell_Hill_1682.jpg
              EXIF Date/Time Original: 2013:06:30 17:08:18 ( 5:08:18 PM )
              EXIF Camera Make/Model: Canon EOS 5D Mark II

              201303_Yarnell_Hill_1683.jpg
              EXIF Date/Time Original: 2013:06:30 17:08:19 ( 5:08:19 PM )
              EXIF Camera Make/Model: Canon EOS 5D Mark II

              Image 1682 shows the BR Polaris Ranger ( with Frisby and Brown in it ) beginning to pull out of the RHR parking lot and take a left and head south on Highway 89.

              Image 1683 was taken just ONE second later and shows them actually doing that ( pulling out of the parking lot onto Highway 89 ).

              The Blue Ridge GPS tracking data CONFIRMS the time for this event as photographed by Tom Story… but it also appears that the time on Tom Story’s ‘Canon EOS 5D Mark II’ camera was about 1 to 2 minutes BEHIND the real time that day.

              Here is the Blue Ridge GPS tracking data that also shows when Frisby and Brown actually left the Ranch House Restaurant parking lot ( as seen in the Tom Story photos )…

              —————————————————————
              1706 – 34.213279, -112.755239 – 0000.000 – 00.00 – Stationary
              1707 – 34.213279, -112.755239 – 0000.000 – 00.00 – Stationary
              1708 – 34.213279, -112.755239 – 0000.000 – 00.00 – Stationary
              1709 – 34.213279, -112.755239 – 0000.000 – 00.00 – Stationary ( slight movement south )
              1710 – 34.216118, -112.758758 – 1839.480 – 20.90 – Heading northwest through Glen Ilah on Lakewood Drive
              1711 – 34.218611, -112.760239 – 1000.710 – 11.37 – At intersection of Westward/Lakewood and Manzanita Drive
              1712 – 34.215772, -112.758640 – 1183.450 – 13.45 – Back east on Lakewood Drive
              ———————————————————-

              Tom Story’s photo timestamps have them actually leaving the RHR parking lot at 1708 plus 18 seconds, but the GPS tracking data ( which was taking the TIME from the GPS satellites themselves ) doesn’t show that happening until about a minute later, between 1709 and 1710.

  8. Gary Olson says

    I have some good news for everyone! I have returned from my latest extended vacation to the Oregon Dunes NRA. Although frankly…it is a little hard to tell exactly when my vacations start and when they end except I don’t blog (or check my computer) while on vacation. After all…every day is a Saturday.

    I asked my dear wife to take a cool photo of me catching about three feet of air coming off a dune on my 800 pound quad like a bat out of hell, but all I ended up with was one of an old man I didn’t even recognize at first playing with some random ATV riders baby (the little stinker could even walk…sort of) he found in a playpen!

    I am posting it because I use my web sites like a Face Book page (which I don’t have) just in case anyone wants to put a face with the name or see what a broken down washed up hotshot looks like after almost 40 years. I think I look like a very sweet old man. I would hire me as a baby sitter…wouldn’t you? And because I think it is very important for everyone to know what I am doing (Hotshot versus Smokejumper video)! Your welcome.

    http://ourfiregods.com/reserved1.html

    Please forgive me…I digress. Because I do have some loose ends I need to tie up that I did think about while cruising on the dunes and some new ones have been created in my absence.

    1. Marti wrote, “Does anybody else resonate with what I have just written?”

    And I say…Well yes I do Marti, but only you and maybe a few other people care what I think about this subject, so I don’t think it makes any difference. Everybody else but us are happy with the status quo, the agencies, the wildland firefighters, the blue shirts, the public, the families…oh….and especially the families.

    “Nobody did anything wrong, the big bad fire had a mind of its own, it did not follow the laws of nature, physics or it’s predicted path, it did not do exactly what the weather forecasters predicted it would do, the GMIHC were not safe in hundreds of acres of black and they could not have simple dropped back down off the ridge and hiked to the southwest to find millions of acres of safe zone, they had to leave the black and hike down a brush choked box canyon directly in front of a raging inferno to try and reach a bomb proof safety zone that ended up being not all that bomb proof so no investigation or no new information is needed.”

    2. WTKTT said, “They should just ‘fast track’ the request and go ahead and give it to him. He may be ‘unemployable’ for the rest of his life.”

    And I say…I hate to be the person that always pisses on everybody’s parade, but they can’t do that. Temporary employees are not entitled to those kinds of benefits, that is why employers hire temporary employees, to limit their long term liabilities regarding those employees. But then again, they also can’t make temporary employees retroactively full time employees either…so maybe he can pull it off. Like I said on the thread earlier, it’s a good thing they didn’t work for Uncle Sam…there is NEVER any give when are between that rock and a hard place.

    3. WTKTT said, ” I don’t think Brendan should have ever even gone to work for them.
    He wasn’t/isn’t qualified to be a ‘counselor’ to anyone.”

    And I say…I agree, I stated that very firmly last year when the news came out that he was going to do that and I predicted that gig would not last very long. There is a short shelf life to being a professional victim and a Sad Sack.

    4. Joy has asked me to drop my inquiry into her situation with Amanda Beno Marsh because she is afraid Mrs. Beno Marsh will use anything and everything against her to get the restraining order against her renewed. And I am going to honor that request unless somebody pushes my buttons again in the meantime.

    I did however, receive MY copy of the verbatim record of the Beno Marsh vs. Collura court case that I paid for and I have completed MY analysis of that court case and I not only CAN give you some insight into what occurred that fateful day, but I WILL give spell it out for you even thought I am sure Joy would prefer that I kept my mouth (and keyboard) shut on the issue.

    First and foremost…Joy SHOULD have won that day if the case would have been decided on the evidence that was presented alone. AND I am prepared to debate that conclusion with anyone including Judge Markam any time, any place, or anywhere.

    I actually think Judge Markam is a good judge and a good man, I just think he was overwhelmed by the Beno Marsh and Pfingston carnival sideshow (Debra and Jerry were there to cheer Mrs. Beno Marsh on in the name of their God) that would have done Jerry Springer proud.

    And unfortunately for Joy, she testifies and cross examines witnesses a lot like she writes…in riddles. Mrs. Beno Marsh is even worse once you throw in the overwhelming pity party she throws for herself wherever she goes, the theatrics, the gross exaggerations (lies) and the unashamed manipulations based on her status as a Public Figure and Object Of Pity.

    Let me put it this way to you, I’m not saying that either Mrs. Beno Marsh, Darrell Willis or our hapless hero would have ever asked for their current status, but now that they have it…dumb ass fuck up and Darrell Willis aren’t the only ones who are rolling in it and making the most out of it.

    FYI, my mother was entitled to her privacy after her husband was killed on the job because she did not willingly turn herself into a Public Figure with great enthusiasm in a successful (so far) attempt to misuse public funds for a private memorial site. Once you do that…you lose your right to be respected as a private citizen, just as a have lost my right to be respected as a private citizen because of my outspoken views on this blog. We are all accountable for our own actions.

    Judge Markam probably wouldn’t have made the mistake he did under normal circumstances but he was so preoccupied with keeping some semblance of order in the three ring circus he was the ring master for after somebody let all of the wild animals out of their cages. AND Judge Markam’s second highest priority was to have the case wrapped up and finished by 5:00 p.m. come hell or high water. So no…justice was not served.

    5. WTKTT made some comments about how now Arizona State Parks has officially closed the park because they say so. As I stated earlier, there has never been any doubt that the Arizona State Parks can close any park they want to…the trick has always been, and still remains, to close it to some of the public while keeping it open and accessible to some of the public. I think they are still doing that in the shadows, which is BULLSHIT! And as of tonight, they are still running their fraud agasint the public by keeping an invalid and worthless document on their web site as though it is an official closure order, which is was once, but is no longer. What a crock of shit!

    http://www.azstateparks.com/committees/downloads/Yarnell_Land_Closing_Orders.pdf

    6. Marti and I got into a discussion down below about me saying something about how I was still trying to figure out why the GMIHC died to which Marti responded that in fact, we already (believe) we know why they died. To quote Sir Winston Churchill, I think the question of “Why” the GMIHC died is not simply a why…it is a “It is a riddle wrapped in a mystery inside an enigma.”

    So yes, we think we know the first level of “why” they died, the GMIHC/
    tried to make it to the back side of Yarnell by beating the fire front to town so they could provide the manpower to backfire the dozer line. But I believe it goes much, much deeper than that and it far more complex with other layers of “why” like an onion and is for more compel. And of course I believe these other layers of “why” are deeply rooted in the humane factors aspect of this tragedy.

    All of the other hotshot crews were burned over and killed for very easy to understand and very basic reasons. They were cutting (or improving) hand line above an uncontrolled wildfire and they exhibited far too much “can do” gung ho spirit while trying to get the job done that was dramatically counter to their own survival. Simple.

    7. Fernanda Santos said, “I hope to have you by my side as this journey continues. Because nothing is accomplished by one individual alone. As Eric Marsh and Jesse Steed used to say, we’re only as strong as our weakest link.” And I say, That certainly fits into the “ya…no shit” category. And I guess we found out in a really bad way just who the weakest link in the GMIHC chain was. Their names were Marsh and Steed. We have already had one book on the Yarnell Hill Fire published that I didn’t read but certified I am told as pure unadulterated bullshit. We now have a second book and probably a movie being developed with our hapless hero as the technical consultant. What do you think the odds are that book and movie will be an even bigger crock of bullshit.

    We have a third book currently being written that has NEILL as the technical research specialist, non-profit board member and full time apologist for Eric Marsh…what are the odds that book will be a crock of bullshit as well? And now we have Ms. Santos. She is quoting trite platitudes offered by both Marsh and Steed regarding the tensile strength of the GMIHC when they were made of very hard but apparently very brittle steel themselves. Gee…what are the odds that her book will be a crock of bullshit as well?

    So unlike Marti…I am not looking forward to Santo or the Maclean books. And now, I am hearing the HELM’S are writing a book. OMG!

    Sidenote: I can tell you there is an aspect to being a hotshot that has never been brought up on this thread that I recall and that is the area where both Marsh and Steed catastrophically failed that is just as important as being physically fit and tough…maybe it is even more important. And that is to exhibit mental toughness and strength at all times. Be able to accept and withstand the stress of doing the right thing from those who are pressuring you to do the wrong thing even though you know it will cost you a great deal…maybe everything you have worked for your entire life.

    I can talk the talk because I walked the walk when I met that ultimate test of fire and passed. I was relieved of my command while fighting the Scott Fire on the Coronado National Forest in 1983 and I was sent home for refusing to follow orders that were contrary to the good of my crew. And then my entire hotshot crew (Santa Fe) was sent home with me on a jet that has been chartered expressly for just that one purpose because they then refused to follow orders from both a sector boss and line boss after the fire boss relieved me of my command.

    Talk about stress. And no dojo, weight room, track or Mt. MF can prepare you for that challenge, it comes from deep down inside and you probably won’t even know whether you have it or not until the day you are called on to use it. Marsh and Steed were challenged to do the right thing for their crew and they failed…and then their crew died. Period…end of story.

    Finally…I am really overdue to finish writing my email to Karen Fann because I believe it will be so pointless. And I know what some of you may be thinking. I have written so many pointless comments up to this point, what is the problem now?

    Point well taken. It’s just that I am a little bit discourage with the way the BOARD is running this entire process, it makes me want to throw up my hands and just say “FUCK YOU” to the entire rotten bunch. But I keep a special whip in my closet for self-flagellation for occasions such as this and I will get it out to punish myself until I finish my response to Fann. I know their plans are cut in stone, but at this point in my life I enjoy eventually being able to say, “I told you so” more than I enjoy having people follow my advice.

    • Gary Olson says

      Oh…and one more thing. My test by fire came many years before “Turn Down Protocols” were even thought of. No USFS IHC crew boss told a Fire Boss, Line Boss and Sector Boss, “No” back in 1983! Which is why they tried their best to make an example out of me but the subsequent investigation concluded I had been right in what I did. So yes…I am qualified to throw stones at both Marsh and Steed.

      • Gary Olson says

        P.S., Funny story…The fire boss and the line boss sent the sector boss onto the bus (at almost midnight) to order the crew to disembark. The sector boss looked pretty funny falling all over himself trying to get off that bus after the entire crew started throwing spit cups, soda cans, and half eaten fruit and sandwiches at him.

        That’s what got the whole crew sent home with me. Of course I could have stopped it with a word but I had been relieved of my command so I just stood there and enjoyed the spectacle.

        “They” spend millions of dollars for each and every hotshot crew in order to build high performance machines out of them. And then they bitch when their creations perform like high performance machines at some inconvenient times…for them.

        • Bob Powers says

          Have you done any checking on the Teepee Springs Fire?
          2 HS Crews refused a assignment got into it with the IC and filed a complaint
          The IC got removed from his Team. It is over on Wildfire Today.
          What a mess. Haven’t found the Names of the TWO CREWS yet.

          • Gary Olson says

            No, I don’t know anymore about it than you just told me. Frankly…I have lost the few wildland firefighters contacts I had left because of my participation on this thread,…so I don’t even have anyone to ask, which is no big deal. I don’t really need to know much at this point in my life, I can just make stuff up as I go along.

  9. Marti Reed says

    So I’ve been really really busy with Other Stuff™ including moving and trying to follow, via Daily Kos (with all its WARTS), what”s going on politically on the national level right now, but I’ve still been READING (except my email, which I KNOW I KNOW I KNOW i need to catch up with).

    (And, to be perfectly honest, one of the things that mystifies me big-time is how is it that so many Arizona wildland fire-fighters, via their Facebook posts (including, to the total MAX Dean Steward) are such hard-core Republican “Obummah” and “Libtard” haters, except when it comes to getting their salaries increased and pensions paid for and wildland fire policies financed………….but that’s a whole nuther story…….)

    So, tonight I read down the stream to see what some of my downstream questions had generated in the way of responses, and thank you all for your responses, and then I came to a response by WTKTT that I want to post to the top, because I think it relates to some of the stuff that has been posted recently.

    And before I do that I have to say that, honestly, I have had to constantly weigh back and forth between my curiosity and conviction that what we are doing just NEEDS TO BE DONE, and my resentment that we are doing is something that somebody should be paying somebody (like us) to be doing, because this just NEEDS TO BE DONE.

    OK. So context description and rant over.

    (I’m writing this while someone is calling in on Norman Goldman’s radio show about how the wildfire was burning thru the hiway in California while the aerial fire-fighting planes were on a stand-down because of the stupid drone operators)

    What really resonated with me was this:

    WantsToKnowTheTruth said on OCTOBER 13, 2015 AT 7:35 AM, regarding why didn’t ADOSH investigate more after the SAIR turned out to be a white-wash:

    “That’s all they could do.

    It will still probably take some kind of court case ( but it will only take ONE single court case ) to ever get a lot of the people who were never even interviewed ‘into a room’ to even just get depositions… OR have them look at the existing evidence ( photos, etc. ) to see if THEY can ‘fill in the blanks’… if for no other reason than to at least make sure the historical record for this HISTORIC incident is accurate.”

    The rest of his comment is truly worth contemplating, and so it is located here:

    http://www.investigativemedia.com/yarnell-hill-fire-chapter-xvi/#comment-311673

    I really agree with he wrote, all things considered. I’m looking forward to Fernanda Santos’ book. I’m also looking forward to John McLean’s book.

    But, all things considered, given the cover-ups and GAG ORDERS and relative paucity of relevant FACTS, I don’t see how either of the above two books are going to be able to narrate what actually happened on this fire.

    Maybe, given all this mess, and all the rabbit-holes WE have had to spend our TIME wandering down into, just because there was never the actual investigation that the Arizona Governor Janet Brewer actually ORDERED published,……………….

    Is it possible that we might be better served by investing our TIME in figuring out how to envision and implement that…..

    “some kind of court case ( but it will only take ONE single court case )”

    that WTKTT wrote about in his comment?

    Just wondering, because I’m really running out of the kind of whatever it has taken to keep me (and us) doing this work (after TWO YEARS of doing it), and yet I am still committed to continuing to try to bring some kind of JUSTICE to this whole Cluster-f*ck Fire, which, ahem, IS STILL BURNING.

    Does anybody else resonate with what I have just written?

    • Marti Reed says

      And PS.

      In a kind of convoluted downstream conversation regarding the “photo under consideration,” and how that photo might possibly relate to who might have been the one asking, “waz yo status”

      Bob Powers said on OCTOBER 16, 2015 AT 7:29 AM

      “Maybe my old brain—-
But where ever the radio traffic was captured with the voice and recording it sounds like it came from a Radio Operator in Fire Camp based on the Message. I may have got confused on where it was recorded. Sorry”

      No “Sorry” required, at all. Not at all.

      In fact, that line of thinking has been a part of my saying/wondering (for a REALLY long time) this:

      Marti Reed says OCTOBER 13, 2015 AT 1:39 PM

      “Oh, and PS. Another little headache/mystery that might ‘matter’ that I’ve hinted at but never said clearly.

      I don’t think Paul Musser was driving the Incident Management Team truck. It doesn’t fit his timeline at all. But the State Fire truck in the middle of the collection, facing towards Marty Cole’s truck, does.

      And, therefore, one of my ongoing ‘unresolved issues’ has all along been, ‘Who from the Incident Management Team, besides Musser, might have been there at the RHR parking lot???’

      I thought about Byron Kimball. But he may have gotten there a bit later than 5:06 PM, which is when the first of Story’s RHR photos was taken. And he said he had to keep moving his truck.”

      If what Bob Powers is saying might be true — that SOMEBODY at the Incident Command Post was, in fact, tasked with paying attention to the radio conversations (especially since the Incident Commander wasn’t paying attention to them, via his ADOSH interview)

      ….and that possibly that person might have been the one who asked “fire waz yo status”

      ….and that SOMEBODY drove that Incident Management Team truck across the Air2Air video camera at (and ONLY AT), while heading east at about 4:28 PM, (one minute after the Gamble Video)

      …….and it got parked in front of the RHR parking lot before Tom Story’s photos started being taken, and I don’t know if it was there in the Reason Video (because I STILL haven’t had time to schlep my hard drives around the corner)

      ……..and I have NO IDEA who was driving that truck and NO IDEA who, in the Tom Story photos, the driver of that truck is, even though it is in the middle of everything, including the one that Paul Musser and Tony Sciacca and ( I think) Rance Marquez and Dan Philbin are gathered around

      Might it just might be important to figure out WHO was driving that truck?

      It might not lead to the “fire waz yo status” questioner?

      But it really bugs me that we don’t know who was driving that truck that left the ICP and crossed the camera at 4:28 PM and then parked it in what became the middle of the action at the Ranch House Restaurant parking lot.

      • Marti Reed says

        And, to be honest, I’ve been thinking about the possibility that that truck might be related to that fire-fighter in the red helmet who, as soon as Darrell Willis pulls up, is seen talking to him via his passenger window, and then keeps pacing the area, who I’m currently thinking might be Dean Steward.

        But i don’t think Dean Steward would have been that southernish cajunish to ask “waz yo status” much less preface that with either “five” or “fire.”

        The only thing that links my thinking about Dean Steward being linked to that truck is that he was on one of the Arizona Incident Management Teams. But the truck he was driving on the Doce Fire was this:

        https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10151489257408715&set=a.54829353714.68352.687098714&type=3

        So, I actually don’t think he was driving that Incident Management Team truck. But I do think he’s the guy in the red helmet.

    • Marti Reed says

      And I also feel a need to say that if Joy’s witness regarding what was happening on Norton Way, which indicates no fire-fighters doing much of any evacuating — including Gary Cordes — that could make it possible that Gary Cordes was the one who drove Cory Ball to the Yarnell Fire Department at 4:27 PM to pick up their ATV.

      • Marti Reed says

        Which would mean Paul Musser might not have anything to do with the “Hail Mary Plan.”

        There really needs to be an investigation of the Yarnell Hill Fire.

        Hello?

    • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

      Reply to Marti Reed post on October 20, 2015 at 6:23 pm

      >> Marti Reed said…
      >>
      >> So I’ve been really really busy with Other Stuff™ including moving and trying
      >> to follow, via Daily Kos (with all its WARTS), what”s going on politically on the
      >> national level right now, but I’ve still been READING (except my email, which
      >> I KNOW I KNOW I KNOW i need to catch up with).
      >>
      >> (And, to be perfectly honest, one of the things that mystifies me big-time is
      >> how is it that so many Arizona wildland fire-fighters, via their Facebook
      >> posts (including, to the total MAX Dean Steward) are such hard-core
      >> Republican “Obummah” and “Libtard” haters, except when it comes to getting
      >> their salaries increased and pensions paid for and wildland fire policies
      >> financed………….but that’s a whole nuther story…….)

      Yes, it is ( but your observations are spot on ). Dean Steward, himself, is his own brand of ‘crazy town’. Long-time engine-mate and VERY close friend of OPS1 Todd Abel’s… as per Steward’s own PUBLIC Facebook page… he actually makes CANNONS that he attaches to UTV’s and test-fires them on his ranch. We are talking actual home-grown ARTILLERY.

      I kid you not ( See his PUBLIC ‘Facebook’ photo albums ).

      >> Marti also said…
      >>
      >> So, tonight I read down the stream to see what some of my downstream
      >> questions had generated in the way of responses, and thank you all for your
      >> responses, and then I came to a response by WTKTT that I want to post to
      >> the top, because I think it relates to some of the stuff that has been posted
      >> recently.
      >>
      >> What really resonated with me was this:
      >>
      >> WantsToKnowTheTruth said on OCTOBER 13, 2015 AT 7:35 AM, regarding why
      >> didn’t ADOSH investigate more after the SAIR turned out to be a white-wash:
      >>
      >> “That’s all they could do.
      >>
      >> It will still probably take some kind of court case ( but it will only take ONE single
      >> court case ) to ever get a lot of the people who were never even interviewed ‘into a
      >> room’ to even just get depositions… OR have them look at the existing evidence
      >> ( photos, etc. ) to see if THEY can ‘fill in the blanks’… if for no other reason than to
      >> at least make sure the historical record for this HISTORIC incident is accurate.”

      That remains true. It will still only take ONE court case where witnesses can be called to get all these people onto the stand, or into a ‘room’ for a REAL deposition, once and for all.

      >> Marti also said…
      >>
      >> Maybe, given all this mess, and all the rabbit-holes WE have had to spend our
      >> TIME wandering down into, just because there was never the actual investigation
      >> that the Arizona Governor Janet Brewer actually ORDERED published,……………….
      >>
      >> Is it possible that we might be better served by investing our TIME in figuring
      >> out how to envision and implement that…..
      >> “some kind of court case ( but it will only take ONE single court case )”
      >> that WTKTT wrote about in his comment?
      >>
      >> Just wondering, because I’m really running out of the kind of whatever it has
      >> taken to keep me (and us) doing this work (after TWO YEARS of doing it), and
      >> yet I am still committed to continuing to try to bring some kind of JUSTICE
      >> to this whole Cluster-f*ck Fire, which, ahem, IS STILL BURNING.
      >>
      >> Does anybody else resonate with what I have just written?

      Well… I certainly do.

      I ( me ), you… and a whole shitload of other people are the ones who are PAYING the SALARIES of ALL of these people who don’t think that telling the whole truth is something that applies to THEM.

      It’s called ‘Public Service’.

      Keyword: PUBLIC.

      You can try to be as insular as the damn MAFIA… but there are still LAWS that need to be obeyed and all this ‘secrecy’ is, in fact, part of the PROBLEM that has been uncovered by the events of June 30, 2013.

      That being said… Marti… I owe you an apology for the exchanges down below.

      I understand your frustration as we got back into these “Who had the camper top vehicle”? discussions… and the fact that this really was all discussed before and you were wondering why some of these discrepancies were only now surfacing.

      I went back and ‘checked the record’ myself… because I DO rememeber scratching my head way back when about SOME of the conclusions being reached… but couldn’t remember why I wasn’t ‘jumping in’.

      The answer is that at that time when you took off like a banshee and did this AMAZING work on the photos and the tracing of the vehicles and the owners… it actually happened right at the point where I was ‘heads down’ into the ABC15 News Helicopter footage from June 30, 2013, and I was trying to match the aerial footage with ground locations.

      That was no easy task. It came down ( in some cases ) to just scouring the landscape and trying to match small groups of BOULDERS seen in the aerial footage with the same groupings as seen in Google Earth.

      But I got it done.

      What I MISSED doing that was ‘jumping in’ when you ( and Calvin ) were doing this amazing job of nailing down all these ‘vehicles’, and ‘who owned them’, and what ‘photos’ they appeared in.

      So I’m going to try to RECAP that discussion from below, which was reignited by us trying to identify the FFs in the photo Gary Olson was asking about.

      That’s what led to that ‘revisit’ of “Who was driving what?” down below.

      I don’t have much time this evening so I’m going to have to SUMMARIZE what I’ve found since the posts below.

      I’ve been on airplanes solid and only today got back near the bulk of my own files and photos and notes… and I’ll be ‘back in the air’ tomorrow but I need to get the following information ‘off my desk’ so you have a chance to see it and come back with your own opinions.

      I’m going to ‘go there’ in the next ‘Reply’ to this message so this one doesn’t get ‘too long’.

      • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

        ** RANCE MARQUEZ’S VEHICLE

        Geez… I just looked at the clock and I have to be back in the air in just a few hours so I’m afraid I’m going to have to be quick about this… but it’s important.

        So apologies in advance for not supplying ‘links’ like I usually like to do, but I think you will know exactly what photos are being referenced below.

        There are THREE…

        1. That Blue Ridge Photo showing the ‘meeting’ out by the GM Crew Carriers that included Rance Marquez, Cougan Carothers and ( what is now pretty certain ) just two other Blue Ridge Hotshots ( but NOT Frisby and Brown because at the moment that photo was taken they were actually up on the ridge having that face-to-face with Eric Marsh and Jesse Steed ).

        2. The TWO Swartz photos in his ‘Town of Yarnell’ folder that show that ‘group’ of FFs out on the shoulder of 89 at the RHR… and the ones that ( I now believe ) show BOTH of the vehicles being drive by Rance Marquez and Cougan Carothers.

        Actually… I remember the TWO Swarts photo names off the top of my head.

        I am talking ( below ) about…

        20130630_1843_AZ-A1S-000688__YARNELL_FB_1_G_RS.JPG
        and
        20130630_1843_AZ-A1S-000688__YARNELL_FB_5_G_RS.JPG

        I’ll call them just ‘FB_1’ and ‘FB_5’ since that’s the only thing different in the filenames in that Swartz ‘Town of Yarnell’ folder.

        Okay… here we go. Sorry this had to be ‘narrative’ style because I really am ‘outta time’ at the moment.

        The other vehicle with the camper top in that BR photo of the Marquez/Carothers + 2 others “meeting” out where the GM carriers were parked CANNOT be the other CYFD pickup with the camper top.

        There is no LIGHT RACK on the top of it.

        But you are RIGHT that there IS this ‘other vehicle’ parked between the CYFD pickup without the camper top ( and just the silver toolbox in the bed ) that was being driven by Cougan Carothers.

        It is WHITE ( on the top )… it has a LOOOONG whellbase, and it does, in fact, have a camper top.

        But the answer here is simple.

        That is the “WHITE with YELLOW STRIPE” looong extended-cab ( with camper top ) BLM pickup that Rance Marquez was driving that day.

        That also CANNOT be ‘Gary Cordes’ standing in that group of four FFs having that ‘meeting’.

        In Rance Marquez”s own typed UNIT LOG ( submitted to ADOSH only because he testified to ADOSH that he even offered this Unit Log of his to the SAIT and they actually said they did NOT want it )…. Marquez specifically references that meeting that was photographed in that BR photo.

        He CONFIRMS ( in his Unit Log ) that Gary Cordes only gave them DIRECTIONS to get out there to where those GM Carriers were parked. Cordes did NOT GO OUT THERE himself. It’s pretty safe now to say that after Cordes ‘handed off’ the dozer HEQB/DOZB job to BR Hotshot Cory Ball circa 10:30 AM… Cordes never went back out there to the Sesame area for the rest of the day. He worked ‘in town’ from that point on.

        Marquez says that when they FIRST arrived out there… they stopped where all the carriers were parked and had a ‘meeting’ with two of the Blue Ridge Hotshots. They told him that Frisby and Brown had gone up to the ridge for that face-to-face meeting which ( according to GPS data ) happened from exactly 11:55 AM to 12:25 PM.

        So that’s what that BR photo really is.

        It captures the moment when Marquez and Carothers met with two of the BR Hotshots ( probably squad leaders ) who were ‘hanging around’ there by the BR Carriers right where the GM Carriers also were.

        So that photo is ( from left to right )…

        A tall ( almost bald ) BR Hotshot with some kind of ‘orange’ thing around his neck.
        Cougan Carothers.
        Rance Marquez ( in that light-lemon-yellow Nomex shirt that is easily recognized and unlike the color of anyone else’s Nomex shirt that day ).
        Another ( shorter ) Blue Ridge Hotshot with a black ball cap and what looks to be ‘white kerchiefs’ sticking out of his pockets.

        The FF you thought was Cordes ( on the left ) is the same HEIGHT and BUILD as that same BR Hotshot who ended up shielding Brendan McDonough from the video camera in the Russ Reason video as Brendan was standing at the back of Marty Cole’s all-white Tacoma pickup with camper top.

        He is ALSO the same TALL BR Hotshot seen in that photo taken of Brian Frisby just after they arrived at the RHR and just after hearing the deployment traffic. He is on the RIGHT side of that photo, in closeup, and he still has that same pinkish-orange thing around his neck as seen in the ‘meeting’ photo. It appears to be just some kind of strap holding his sunglasses… but the COLOR is a definite match for whatever is around the neck of the BR FF that you thought might be ‘Cordes’ in the ‘meeting’ photo.

        Now for the Swartz ‘Town of Yarnell’ photos ( FB_1 and FB _5 ).

        That is the SAME long white camper-top pickup seen parked on the road there as seen in the BR hotshot ‘meeting’ photo ( in-between Cougan’s CYFD no-camper pickup and the GM Crew Carriers ).

        FB_1 doesn’t show the BLM ‘green diamond’ logo on the door… but FB_5 DOES.

        So that pretty much HAS to be the ‘long white BLM pickup with camper top’ that Rance Marquez was driving that day.

        Rance Marquez WORKED as a ‘Fuels expert’ for BLM circa June, 2013.
        His RESOURCE order shows him as being sub-contracted from BLM and the ‘transportation’ field on his order SAYS he was driving an ‘AOV’ ( Agency Owned Vehicle )’.

        So that long white pickup with the camper top ( and no light bar ) and the yellow stripe and the ‘green diamond’ BLM logo on the door had to be his.

        The other ‘match’ is on the ‘roof’ of this long white camper-top truck.

        It does NOT have a ‘light bar’ ( as Gary Cordes’ CYFD camper-top pickup did )… but it does have a small black KNOB with a radio antenna sticking out of it.

        That same KNOB is seen BOTH the ‘Sesame clearing meeting’ photo AND in BOTH of the Swartz photos.

        So unless I am losing my mind… I think all of the following things are now true…

        1. The vehicles in that BR ‘meeting’ photo ( other than the GM Crew Carriers ) are simply Rance Marquez’s long white camper-top BLM truck and Cougan Carothers’ CYFD non-camper-top pickup.

        2. Gary Cordes is NOT in that photo, nor was he present at that ‘meeting’.

        3. Gary Cordes really WAS driving that ‘camper top’ CYFD pickup that day, so that means that really is him still up north on Hwy 89 at 4:16 PM as seen in the Jake Guadiana video….

        4. ….and that means that really is him seen driving south on Highway 89 in the ( thank to Joy Collura ) Anna Marie Lechner photo… which Anna Marie has now already confirmed WAS taken in about the 4:45 PM timeframe.

        I think that eliminates him as a candidate for being the one to drive Cory Ball to the YFD to get the ATV… but that all depends on the accuracy of the TIME on the Anna Marie Lechner photo.

        More later…

        • Marti Reed says

          Thanks TONS, WTKTT!!

          You and I really “walked away” from our “vehicle id-ing” with COMPLETELY different takes on things.

          But, I think you’re correct here, and no, you aren’t losing your mind, but all of my marbles are DEFINITELY tossed up in the air again. But in a good way. But now I have a bunch more questions about where my marbles are going to fall.

          I have REPEATEDLY said that I thought Rance Marquez (when I wasn’t mistakenly saying Cougan Carothers) was driving that BLUE truck that crossed the Air2Air camera at 3:51PM (which is partially why I didn’t believe Rance’s testimony) before being seen in the video on 89 before being seen in Aaron’s video turning around before being seen in almost all of Story’s photos, etc etc. It’s also seen in a photo taken at 2:15 PM at the ICP in the photo IMG_20130630_141459_148.jpg from the MiscASFD collection.

          And I had completely missed the differences between the BLM truck that we see Dan Philbin walking away from and that other BLM truck. And they’re totally different. I had missed that.

          And I had thought the BR Hotshot in the photo of Brian Frisby was Trew Brown. I had no idea there was a BR Hotshot who was “almost bald” looking. That’s why I thought the guy at the far left in the “meeting” photo was Gary Cordes. He’s the only “almost bald” grey-haired person I know of on the fire.

          Is that “almost bald” person in the video of the BR Hotshots at that later event (I can’t remember what even that was, because I haven’t looked at that video all that much)?

          I had pretty much given up trying to identify all the BR Hotshots because it was becoming a “rabbit hole” for me. Becuz it’s really hard to tell their differences, especially when they’re covered with dirt, smoke, helmets, and sunglasses, unless they REALLY look different. I still have trouble trying to distinguish who’s Brian and who’s Trew in all of those RHR parking lot photos.

          So I had id’d the guys in the “meeting” photo as (l to r) Cordes, Ball (and I’m still not totally in agreement with you that that is Rance Marquez for certain reasons), Cougan Carothers, and Rance Marquez.

          I’ve pretty much associated Cory Ball with that big turned-up collar (ish), for better or worse.

          So now that leaves me wondering, “WHO was driving that BLUE truck???”

          The blue truck has two decals on it. I can’t read the one on the front drivers side door, but the one on the side of the bed is another one of those “IMT” decals that, I’m pretty sure, is related to the “Arizona Central West Zone Incident Management Team,” except it has a blue BLM triangle on it, which is another reason why I associated it with Rance Marquez.

          So now we have TWO trucks with those “IMT” decals in the RHR parking lot photos; and now I have no idea WHO was driving EITHER of them. The white one is an “Arizona Fire” truck (that I REALLY don’t think Paul Musser was driving — see my many reasons downstream) and the other is a BLM-related truck.

          And, yeah, Dean Steward is a real character. Hope he gets his socialist pension benefits. He surely deserves them, even if nobody else on the planet deserves their (obummer is a socialist) socialist benefits!!

          • Marti Reed says

            Yikes. It’s 9:20 in the morning here in Burque and we’re having an electrical storm plus hail. In the middle of October.

            Fortunately the Balloon Fiesta had the best weather (except for one day) that I’ve seen in about a decade. Bookended by heavy curtains of cold, rainy weather.

            Oh well, Albuquerque still has about the best (climate-change-impacted) weather in the country!

          • Marti Reed says

            Oh, and also I had missed the missingness of the lightbar on that white truck in the “meeting” photo. Or just thought it must have been hidden by the big truck in front of it.

            It really is a Lessons Learned lesson (at least for me) as to how easy it is for the narratives we have carefully and painstaking developed in our heads to turn into rutted roads that we drive over again and again and again until we think they represent “The Truth.”

            Namaste!

          • Marti Reed says

            OK I just realized, after going back and doing some more scouring, that ALL the IMT decals on the trucks seen in photos and videos from the Yarnell Fire have that big blue triangle on the left side of them.

            So that means that the blue truck is NOT associated with BLM, and I think the decal on the side door is probably also a State Forestry Division division decal.

    • Sonny says

      Marti is right–How can anyone write a book of facts about the Yarnell Hill Fire when the real story is under gag order and whitewash. There is much yet to be revealed but indeed conjecture is out there already as we saw from the Dickman story. Facts mixed with fiction equals fiction.

      Well Dr Ted Putnam and John Dougherty proved to me that they are after the facts of this Yarnell firestorm that killed nineteen young men, burned half the town of Yarnell and a number of residences of Peeples Valley, left a legacy of aftermath deaths in the amount over 50 Yarnell residents since the fire and plenty of answered questions. Folks, that is ten percernt of our Yarnell population wiped out–something John says is off the chart. Yet no one has investigated the reasons for that. Were there poisons in the air–most people who have died from lung and heart problems. That heart deprived of oxygen is a killer and its death is generally due to oxygen deprivation. I have myself had to alter my hiking habits and lately had problems even crossing the Wal Mart store from one end to the other. Three heart stints and a diagnosis of possible early COPD after all ranks me among those in this town who are presently complaining of lung problems after the fire that was allowed to burn by preference of certain unidentified persons–at least publicly.

      When we were on the mountain Joy wondered why it seemed that not much was being done to stop the fire. I told her that the main idea was to let it go for a prescribed burn. Was that why the Yarnell fire department was discouraged–even ordered to stand down in their efforts to halt the fire? Gag orders keep the real truth withheld at least publicly while local residents gag on the crap they are fed to make this look like a God incident. Ordinarily you would have believed 19 lives of America’s finests would deserve the investigation of a high federal investigation–namely the FBI who would not be connected to the good old boy and crony system that is evident in this situation. How on God’s earth can something like this be glossed over as if good old Jesus intended those boys to go to their death without due process.

      The thing is it seems that allowing fires to escalate beyond control allows a lot of financial benefits to certain parties and that even after the fire —but at what cost. Well those that did profit from this never look at what allowing a miniature lighting strike really does cost. Will this change the way the future fire bosses view fires? We certainly hope so since the only benefit to society at large will be the lessons learned from the folly of the Yarnell Hill Fire.

    • joy a collura says

      If there is ANY smokejumpers out there that was fed doubt in 2015 on hikers. Contact me directly to show the truth always matters…
      We can sit down in person and cover your doubts. Also we know one person will look into Smokejumper 2015 convention video footage but I am using this platform to inquire to anyone else who has footage reach us with it. It is sad Johnny broke news to me…aloha…Moses…you may have been spot on…

  10. dale1 says

    nobody i know who’s UsFS or BLM have orders on them not to talk about yarnell.//….. theres not a order not to talk about it that i know of..…. mebbe there is order but i nver seen it and my friends either???? ..//?? ppl get nervous and dont want to talkk and have there info on here.//…..

    • Bob Powers says

      Dale1— It was ordered on the BR Hot Shots and FS Overhead on the Fire.
      Along with the Heavily redacted written Statements of the Crew. When the SAIT report came out.

      • Bob Powers says

        Dale1 If you and your friends were not on Yarnell Hill Fire.
        Then there would be no Gag order on you or them it has to do with
        Witness information from those on the scene.

    • Joy A. Collura says

      dale1 says
      OCTOBER 19, 2015 AT 11:07 AM

      nobody i know who’s UsFS or BLM have orders on them not to talk about yarnell.WERE ANY OF YOUR USFS OR BLM A PART IN CRUCIAL POINTS TO THE YHF AND THAT DEFINES FRIDAY AND SATURDAY AND SUNDAY BECAUSE EACH DAY CARRIED CRUCIAL POINTS —I WISH I COULD BRING UP A FEW THINGS—SHIT—I DO BUT GOTTA KEEP THIS LINE TIGHT//….. theres not a order not to talk about it that i know ofCAN YOU DIRECTLY ASK THE PEOPLE YOU KNOW…AHHH SHIT…I CAN’T,,,I WILL LET THE PROFESSIONALS ASK THE QUESTIONS TO YOU DALE1 BUT NOW YOU ARE IMPORTANT TO THIS HERE DISCUSSION BECAUSE YOU KNOW POSSIBLY PEOPLE THAT WERE ON THE YHF…AND YET THEY HAVE NEVER COME TO THIS PAGE TO TALK OR HELP ANSWER QUESTIONS DURING SERIOUS DISCUSSIONS NOT EVEN IN PRIVATE LIKE MANY HAVE DONE FOR US INCLUDING EX GMHS…. mebbe there is order but i nver seen it and my friends eitherASK AROUND BECAUSE THIS IS NOT OUR FIRST ACCOUNT OF HEARING YET IT IS OUR FIRST ACCOUNT TO KNOW THIS PERSON HAS ONE HELL OF A CREDENTIAL BACKGROUND AND THAT ALONE IS GOLD
      ???? ..//?? ppl get nervous and dont want to talkkI KNOW THAT EMOTION DEEPLY. A SERIAL KILLER IS OUT OR SOON OUT AND I KNOW ALL TOO WELL ABOUT NERVES/DONT WANT TO SPEAK/LAY LOW AND JUST LIVE MY LIFE AND KEEP THE WORLD OUT…HAD BEEN DOING IT ALL MY LIFE UNTIL I MET SONNY…HE HAS BEEN MY BIGGEST LIFE CHANGING EVENT AS WELL AS HOW TO FACE NEW FOREIGN CHALLENGES…YOU ASK ANYONE IN CHANDLER THAT I ONLY TOOK CARE OF MY NEAR AND DEAR OLDER NEIGHBORS AND I ONLY MET MY GAL PALS AT THE GYM OR AWAY FROM MY HOME TO ROLLERBLADE…ROCK CLIMB…RUN…ETC…AND MET ALL CELEBS BUT A HANDFUL AWAY FROM MY HOME—ONLY A FEW GOVT FOLKS AND CELEBS BEEN IN MY HOME—I JUST AM NOT SOCIAL LIKE THAT…IN CONGRESS THOUGH, YOU STOP BY THE WATER COMPANY HERE AND ASK ABOUT ME—SHE WILL STATE EXACTLY THE FOLLOWING FOR IT IS A COPY/PASTE OF HER OWN WORDS:
      “I have known Joy for approximately ten years. In the time I have known her she has always been interested in community service and in helping both the older people and the children in our community. She has never accepted any payment for her service and has a strong Christian belief that it is all our duty to help the less fortunate and needy around us.

      I know that Joy has always love the desert and enjoys taking long hikes in the area. She has a great concern for the fireman who were killed in the Yarnell fire and the area surrounding that burn site.

      Over the years Joy has dropped what ever she was doing to help me and my family so if I can do something to help her I am glad to do it.

      If I can be of further assistance don’t hesitate to contact me.

      Sincerely

      Patricia l Fisher ”
      AS SHE IS ONE OF ALMOST FEW THOUSAND+ SIGNATURES WE GATHERED IN A FEW DAYS FROM SUNDAY TO WEDNESDAY NIGHT TO SHOW JUDGE THAT DAY 1-8-15 THAT I HAVE EXCELLENT CHARACTER AND IT WAS JUST ONE FRUSTRATED MOMENT—I AM NOT A THREAT TO ANYONE—NOT EVEN THE ONES NARRATING THE YHF…I CAN GET FRUSTRATED AND MOODY–I AM HUMAN BUT NOT OF ANY BODILY HARM…JUST WANT ANSWERS AND IT SEEMS I AM FINALLY GETTING THEM…THANK YOU BUNCHES TOO…
      … and have there info on here.//…..WELL, DALE1…MANY IN THAT SAME BOAT HAVE COME TO US IN CONFIDENTIALITY AND AS WELL AS BOB POWERS HAS HAD THAT HAPPEN AND GARY OLSEN. WE ARE NOT TRYING TO “WIN” OR MAKE A BOOK OR GATHER THE MOST INFORMATION BUT WE WILL KEEP THE I M CAMPFIRE ALIVE AND BURNING BECAUSE IT IS THE HONORABLE RIGHT THING TO DO—TOO MANY AFFECTED BY THE YHF…RIGHT OTIS FROM ANOTHER COUNTRY?

      REPLY BELOW

      Reply FROM Bob Powers OCTOBER 19, 2015 AT 11:16 AM

      Dale1— It was ordered on the BR Hot Shots and FS Overhead on the Fire. AS WELL AS THIS PERSON.

      Along with the Heavily redacted written Statements of the Crew. When the SAIT report came out. WHICH IS THE PART I WANT TO ADD..THE REASON I AM NOT MENTIONING LOCATION AND WHO AND AWAIT THE PROFESSIONALS TO INTERVIEW THEM—(JOHN DOUGHERTY/DR TED PUTNAM/ORIGINAL OSHA MEN WE HIKED)…JOHN MACLEAN WOULD UNDERSTAND THIS TERMINOLOGY—“KEEP A TIGHT LINE”—IF I LOOSEN THE INFORMATION TOO FAST AND TOO PURE—WE MAY NOT LAND THE VERY FIRST ALIVE ACCOUNT THAT WAS PRESENT AT A CRUCIAL PART TO THE FIRE THAT STATES VERBALLY THE PERSON WAS GAGGED UNDER FEDERAL ORDERS AND SERVED AND I MADE SURE MANY TIMES TO DEFINE THAT—WHO IT IS OBVIOUS BY BODY LANGUAGE IS “UNDER PRESSURE”—SO WE THE HIKERS HAVE TO MAINTAIN A TIGHT LINE…NOT A TIGHT LIP BECAUSE WE ARE NOT GAGGED—YOU EVER SEE A SPANIARD LEAD A BULL WITH THAT LARGE RING IN HIS NOSE…SMOOTHLY DRAW IT IN AND IT WILL FOLLOW…BACK TO LOWER case…I was using CAPS for replying only…not emphasize of a word…
      back to my fish on a line and where I was headed—The SAIT means to me just this…as long as they keep that head moving in the right direction, they have a better chance of dictating and controlling the fight and keeping emotions under control. But, not always. Often the fish tumbles, jumps or quickly changes directions and gets his head going in the opposite direction that they want. When this happens the fish is in control and often heads for cover/structure, which more often than not means logs. I am just letting the fishies know…we have enough confidential accounts and it begins with YOU speaking up and now we know concretely there are these fishies…and about the fish line…there can be a fine line between too much pressure and not enough. Often, it isn’t enough…I do not want to lose this rare opportunity…The time, in my opinion…when a fish is most likely to “spit the hook” ….send the hook back to you…. is when it’s down stream, facing you, and shaking its head violently…When this occurs…let him go…
      bottom line in any part of making it may it be fishing or landing a job…its the smoothness and fastness and well I don’t have it so that is why I have to let the professionals take my line to reach this person properly…I don’t want to screw it up…but this is a fair enough statement to share to those on the YHF right now that if this person ends up speaking first and not YOU and you know who you are…this is not a joke…it is better if you speak up first before this person. I would say in my humble opinion contact John Dougherty…Dr Ted Putnam…and the OSHA originals as I am awaiting that as well…I seriously WOULD NOT wait until you see what this person says first…time to open up…it is…I am not trying to pressure you yet this is not just some housewife huffing and puffing…it is going to happen…the news will come out…I won’t allow it to just sit QUIET like so many of you did for 2+ years…I just need it done the right way.

      • Joy A. Collura says

        thank you to person who stated this:
        Mon, Oct 19, 2015 at 10:24 AM
        Glad it is coming from someone else so others will realize you weren’t doing any of your research to get attention for yourself as some might purport.

        my reply:
        Exactly my thought…I was like oh shit…I am hearing this…why can’t John Dougherty hear it or Dr Ted Putnam…WHY ME?
        why now…ugh…but I did say I had open door…

        • Joy A. Collura says

          DALE1 IS CORRECT—I HAVE MORE SUPPORT FROM FOLKS READING ONLY THE SITE AND REPLYING TO ME ANOTHER WAY VS POSTING HERE…SEE FROM A PERSON WHO SUPPORTS ME CONTINUING ON…:
          Mon, Oct 19, 2015 at 12:31 PM
          “I didn’t believe in psychics until I met one”—-the person “took an inordinate amount of “heat” from the Christian fundamentalists
          in Prescott”.
          “To those people,” the person “was a “witch”; she was an evil “fool” glorifying herself by
          manipulating Satan, etc., etc.”
          to her it was all just water off a duck’s back.
          So Joy, that’s the attitude you need to cultivate. Just forge ahead and do what
          you have to do. Well, for whatever it’s worth, I do hope this entirely unsolicited
          advice helps you. And thanks for everything you have already done – regarding the
          Yarnell Hill Fire.

          TO ME THAT SOUNDS LIKE THE GENERAL FOLKS VIEWS THAT REACH OUT TO ME…YET EVEN IF ALL 100% COMMUNICATIONS WERE BASHING ME I WOULD STILL SHARE THE SAME AS I DO…I WISH I CAN SHARE MORE AND AT EASE THE PURITY IMMEDIATELY AS IT HAPPENS YET I THINK I HAVE DONE MY VERY BEST CONSIDERING…

  11. Joy A. Collura says

    Thank you RF for the map you sent Sonny and me Sun, Oct 18, 2015 at 7:38 PM (check email Sonny)…I told someone I trust away from cyber world and cells and home so I am not the only one besides Sonny who heard what I heard today…in a way I did say I had an open door for all but this person did not know me or Sonny and as I heard the sharing…it was hard…very hard…shew…From the rough and tumble street life I once saw to the arid terrains I pioneered…I am sure as time goes by…in His time…like Sonny stated MORE will come out of hiding to protect and honor all affected by YHF…and maybe the tables will turn and a flood of information surfaces for the record PUBLIC…I wish I could be pure Dale1…I do…but I have no clue what it all means when a federal judge served a gag like that…what the hell is going on? I got slapped by an order by a local judge and I took it serious so I could not imagine what these people are going through….fighting their own wars internally…maybe Louis L’Amour had it right when he would write…ride along into danger…traveling under an alias…and step back into time…this Investigative Media is much more than some blog area…it is a great place to learn information as well time line the YHF…a great place to come forward and SPEAK UP…Now if I ever end up in court from any affected by YHF as being overly interested in a fire that I eye-witnessed and survived it going a longer way out…I just hit the freaking mother lode today with a REAL freaking person with the highest credentials who was on the fire and told the TRUE story…For me, it was not easy to listen to the words. I hope they all tell their stories as life unfolds…I hope the thundering roars I heard today come hammering down…because it has been a long ride home Louis L’Amour…I think this blog is more than a blog…I will say Sonny is right…I will share with John Dougherty/Dr. Ted Putnam/OSHA original guys we hiked and talked to IN PERSON this account…but the rest…nah—serious…not any homeowner or loved one—this news ain’t coming from me—it needs to be stated as it was told…by the person who was there not third party or hearsay but right there that person was…shew….what is the chances when at 4:59am today I cancelled my time to see Sonny so to be at 2pm…hearing someone was told on a federal level…THANK YOU for sharing today what you did no matter how hard it was to hear it because you just confirmed alot I said on here that more will come forward…really, thank you. Spread the word and have more share…

  12. Sonny says

    Indeed Bob Powers, this is a fitting time to begin a new chapter. New information was revealed to Joy and me today at about 2 PM in Prescott. An officer there told us that he had been served a federal order to not discuss the Yarnell Hill Fire and things he witnessed and knew that went on that day. Considering that the investigation into the deaths of 19 of America’s finest has been tampered with this way so that pertinent and vital information to reveal the true causes and factors leading up to their deaths would seem to be a travesty of justice–something that someone in our government with high authority ought to be looking into. The feds that ordered this ought to have someone over them to get to the bottom of why the gag order was put out to dampen the investigation.

    I dare say the white wash is beginning to fade and the real facts of what happened and why are slowly surfacing. The internet indeed is working its wonders–and a number of people are also beginning to reveal things. Sadly the person we spoke to is also in fear of loosing his job and credentials and therefore must remain anonymous. However you will see that many after retirement and those that move on to other jobs will begin to speak their minds and give us facts and information that has not been allowed to surface due to these legal orders if indeed they are legal.

    From what I heard today it is obvious that the information that man has would have legal ramifications against certain of the bosses involved in the fire. Their must be some who are loosing much sleep over their involvement in the fire considering that those persons have worked and angle so that there would be no blame in their game. That good old boy attitude seems to prevail but truth has a way of shining its way through and Karma seems to eat away at those involved in the cover up. I do know from today’s experience that too many are ready to talk and the restrains they are under at this time will eventually wear thin and are already at their breaking point in many cases.

    What we can conclude from sources that are telling us the real facts is that this investigation is far from over. As this man said, the reason he and others were gagged was because certain entities wanted it to appear a certain way to their satisfaction, not to get to allow the people to know the actual facts of how things were played out. He is one fellow I would like to see the FBI interrogate. He, being the officer and reputation he has, would be one to cause an opening into a proper and reliable investigation concerning matters that caused the demise of the 19 firefighters. I believe it would shake up the way things are done in future fire cases such as the Yarnell lightning strike that was allowed to develop into a full fledged disaster. And more importantly it would save future lives on that account. Are not the lives of future men on the fire line more important than the loss of a few jobs due to the negligence we saw with the Yarnell Hill Disaster?

    • Bob Powers says

      Sonny I need to think on this.
      The Gag order would mean nothing coming from the Feds.
      They were not in charge of the Investigation.
      The only people the Feds could Gag would be their employees.

      There is something quite strange here. Are you sure the State did not do the Gag order?

      The Federal Government has no control over State, County or City Governments. If it was a Federal Investigation then they would be able to require thru supine and Court Order a gag Order on all Witnesses.
      Again this was not a Federal Investigation.
      As Lawyers for their Employees they could Order them only.

      Need a lot more here but very Interesting. Thanks

      • Joy A. Collura says

        we will tell in person the 3 names we mentioned on here how to reach the person who is anonymous to get their own interviews…yes I thought strange too…yet alot he said was not eay to hear…

      • Joy A. Collura says

        Bob said “The Gag order would mean nothing coming from the Feds.”

        Joy said: The person stated “he was served on a federal level not state.” The person stated there are others. The person stated alot but we will allow the person to be interviewed by the pros like the three I mentioned…this is nothing to take lightly either….I mean tomorrow I am sanding furniture and I have no wheels and Sonny would have to be reached separate because he is doing his stuff…but I am here but I cannot meet people out of town…but here…I prefer Sonny to be present for in person talk though..since he was there.

        • Bob Powers says

          I do not believe there was a Federal Court involved. or a Federal Investigation.
          It was all handled at the State Level. Maybe there is something we all missed.

    • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

      Reply to Sonny post on October 18, 2015 at 6:53 pm

      >> Sonny said…
      >>
      >> I believe it would shake up the way things are done in future fire cases such
      >> as the Yarnell lightning strike that was allowed to develop into a full fledged
      >> disaster. And more importantly it would save future lives on that account.
      >> Are not the lives of future men on the fire line more important than the loss
      >> of a few jobs due to the negligence we saw with the Yarnell Hill Disaster?

      Well said, Sonny.

  13. Bob Powers says

    First I think it is time for a new chapter– been hard to get on the past few days

    Second I saw in the Dailey courier Prescott that McDonough is again applying for
    a medical retirement due to his mental problems. It was in yesterdays Paper.

    Also over on Wildfire today there is a article on the removal of an IC on a Great Basin Team after complaints were filed by 2 Hot Shot Crews.

    • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

      Reply to Bob Powers post on October 18, 2015 at 6:57 am

      >> Bob Powers said…
      >>
      >> First I think it is time for a new chapter– been hard to get on the past few days.

      Agree. This page is now exceeding the limits of some mobile browsers as well.

      >> Bob Powers also said…
      >>
      >> Second I saw in the Dailey courier Prescott that McDonough is again
      >> applying for a medical retirement due to his mental problems. It
      >> was in yesterdays Paper.

      The story has also made the ABC News affiliate ABC15…

      http://www.abc15.com/news/region-northern-az/prescott/survivor-of-deadly-yarnell-hill-fire-applying-for-benefits

      They should just ‘fast track’ the request and go ahead and give it to him.
      He may be ‘unemployable’ for the rest of his life.

      In related news… the “Wildland Firefighter Foundation” aid organization ( based in Boise, Idaho ) that Brendan used to work for as a ‘counselor’ is in the news again as well. Three Board members have quit because the founders ( Vicki Minor and her son Burk ) still won’t do what they promised in response to all the previous financial mismanagement issues. Vicki minor had agreed to hire an independent CFO ( Chief Financial Officer ) but has simply ‘promoted from within’ and moved her own assistant into the job. Board says she isn’t qualified and that Minor just wants to run it like a ‘family business’…. so they quit.

      I don’t think Brendan should have ever even gone to work for them.
      He wasn’t/isn’t qualified to be a ‘counselor’ to anyone.

      >> Bob Powers also said…
      >>
      >> Also over on Wildfire today there is a article on the removal of an IC on a
      >> Great Basin Team after complaints were filed by 2 Hot Shot Crews.

      Lots of issues involved here… including complaints now about SAFENET and how some people ‘behind the red wall’ now think it’s not even a good idea to have that kind of an outlet for FFs to even complain about anything.

      Speaking of ‘sole survivors’… also in the WFF news…

      The parents of Daniel Lyon, the only FF to survive from that Engine burnover on Woods Canyon Road ( Twisp Fire ) have just held another press conference after a long period of saying nothing.

      Daniel IS doing better… but he apparently go into some trouble with some infections and it was touch and go for a while.

      He’s had 10 ( TEN ) surgeries since the incident on August 19, 2015… and still a few more to go…. but he’s apparently doing WELL.

      He’s able to do physical REHAB now and he WILL get out of that hospital eventually.

      He only recently even ASKED about his crewmates from that day and his parents finally informed him that he was the only one who didn’t die.

      They also say he has had very little to say about the incident ( even to them ) and he just said he is ‘praying for the families’.

      It’s still a long road ahead for Daniel… but he has enough skin back now that he’s probably no longer in danger of dying from post-burn infections.

      His parents say that, due to the burns to his face area, they still have trouble telling when Daniel is either sobbing… or laughing. He still has to tell them which is which.

      Now all we need to know is what the fuck that Engine was even DOING up that road, at that time, and putting those men directly ABOVE a dynamic, uncontained fire… when even Okanogan County Fire District 6 Chief Don Waller had already issued the warning “DO NOT PROCEED UP WOODS CANYON ROAD”.

    • joy a collura says

      Test. Mobile not posting. We have crucial new evidence. Need to talk to John Dougherty…Dr Ted Putnam…OSHA in person immediately. Serious information.

      • joy a collura says

        The time has arrived

        . Ivwill be sharing this information to others in person I trustvnot by phone or anywhere cyber…what God did today was nothing but miraculous

    • Sonnny says

      Indeed Bob Powers, this is a fitting time to begin a new chapter. New information was revealed to Joy and me today at about 2 PM in Prescott. An officer there told us that he had been served a federal order to not discuss the Yarnell Hill Fire and things he witnessed and knew that went on that day. Considering that the investigation into the deaths of 19 of America’s finest has been tampered with this way so that pertinent and vital information to reveal the true causes and factors leading up to their deaths would seem to be a travesty of justice–something that someone in our government with high authority ought to be looking into. The feds that ordered this ought to have someone over them to get to the bottom of why the gag order was put out to dampen the investigation.

      I dare say the white wash is beginning to fade and the real facts of what happened and why are slowly surfacing. The internet indeed is working its wonders–and a number of people are also beginning to reveal things. Sadly the person we spoke to is also in fear of loosing his job and credentials and therefore must remain anonymous. However you will see that many after retirement and those that move on to other jobs will begin to speak their minds and give us facts and information that has not been allowed to surface due to these legal orders if indeed they are legal.

      From what I heard today it is obvious that the information that man has would have legal ramifications against certain of the bosses involved in the fire. Their must be some who are loosing much sleep over their involvement in the fire considering that those persons have worked and angle so that there would be no blame in their game. That good old boy attitude seems to prevail but truth has a way of shining its way through and Karma seems to eat away at those involved in the cover up. I do know from today’s experience that too many are ready to talk and the restrains they are under at this time will eventually wear thin and are already at their breaking point in many cases.

      What we can conclude from sources that are telling us the real facts is that this investigation is far from over. As this man said, the reason he and others were gagged was because certain entities wanted it to appear a certain way to their satisfaction, not to get to allow the people to know the actual facts of how things were played out. He is one fellow I would like to see the FBI interrogate. He, being the officer and reputation he has, would be one to cause an opening into a proper and reliable investigation concerning matters that caused the demise of the 19 firefighters. I believe it would shake up the way things are done in future fire cases such as the Yarnell lightning strike that was allowed to develop into a full fledged disaster. And more importantly it would save future lives on that account. Are not the lives of future men on the fire line more important than the loss of a few jobs due to the negligence we saw with the Yarnell Hill Disaster?

  14. WantsToKnowTheTruth says

    **
    ** NEXT MEETING OF THE “YARNELL HILL MEMORIAL SITE’ BOARD” IS OCTOBER 23, 2015

    The official online page where this Arizona PUBLIC Board called the “Yarnell Hill Memorial Site Board” is legally required to post notices of meetings, agendas and the ‘minutes’ from all previous meetings has just been updated…

    http://azstateparks.com/committees/Yarnell.html

    At the top of the page it now says…

    “The next Site Board Meeting will be on October 23, 2015. The agenda is posted below”

    Just below that… someone also updated the ‘Meeting Dates’ section…

    ———————————————-
    Meeting Dates

    October 23, 2015 (3pm. at the Yavapai County Supervisor’s Building, Gladys Gardener room, located at 1015 Fair Street in Prescott)
    ———————————————–

    The AGENDA for this upcoming October 23, 2015 meeting has also been posted… but it is just as worthless as all the previous ‘Agendas’ published since they first established all the ‘subcommittees’.

    Since they first established their ‘subcommittees’… all the published ‘agendas’ ever say is “The subcommittees will present their reports”.

    Absolutely no REAL information about what is going to be discussed, or voted on, at any particular meeting… which is also a violation of Arizona Open Meetings laws. Arizona Law says that ANY issues that are obviously of interest to the ‘the PUBLIC’…. or any important VOTES that are planned… are supposed to be specifically mentioned in an ‘agenda’ so that the PUBLIC has a better chance to attend those meetings.

    Someone has also now UPDATED the ‘blurb’ at the top of that page that recently appeared with says…

    “The Park is currently closed to the public while under development.
    There are no public roads or trail access available.”

    Apparently the original FORMAT for that line wasn’t good enough for someone… and they decided to BOLDFACE it so it STANDS OUT more than before.

    And even though it is obvious that someone has now paid attention to this website and has tried to bring it ‘up to date’… they are still breaking Arizona Law and have still NOT POSTED the MINUTES from the following two previous Board meetings…

    05/29/2015 ( Their May 5, 2015 PUBLIC meeting ).
    09/18/2015 ( Their September 18, 2015 PUBLIC meeting ).

    They are still choosing to break the Arizona laws governing all Arizona State PUBLIC Boards and HIDE the minutes for these two previous meetings.

    The September 9, 2015 meeting was supposed to be the one where Board member Amanda Marsh would make some kind of ‘report’ to the Board about her ‘unsupervised’ polling of the ‘family members’ regarding what the final PUBLIC access to the PUBLIC park should look like.

    That is also the meeting where, if Amanda Marsh reported that the families were ‘split’ ( whatever that means ) about what the PUBLIC access to the PUBLIC park should really look like… then the Board was going to just go ahead an VOTE for themselves about that and set the final ‘access’ rules themselves.

    We still have no idea what Amanda Marsh reported to the Board regarding the family members opinions and/or whether the Board has already set the ‘final access profile’ for the PUBLIC park.

    • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

      Sorry, typo above. I typed ‘September 9’ when it should have been ‘September 18’.

      Paragraph above should have read like this…

      The September 18, 2015 meeting was supposed to be the one where Board member Amanda Marsh would make some kind of ‘report’ to the Board about her ‘unsupervised’ polling of the ‘family members’ regarding what the final PUBLIC access to the PUBLIC park should look like.

  15. WantsToKnowTheTruth says

    **
    ** COUGAN CAROTHERS WAS DECLARED ‘NOT FIT FOR DUTY’ DUE TO
    ** STRESS RELATED ISSUES FOLLOWING THE YARNELL HILL FIRE.

    Reply to Marti Reed post on October 13, 2015 at 6:04 pm

    >> Marti Reed said…
    >>
    >> Joy said… “the lack of cooperation from the very people who fought on that fire”
    >>
    >> That’s why I don’t think Cougan Carothers will cooperate with either you or us.
    >> He refused to cooperate with the ADOSH Investigation.
    >>
    >> They all stand safely and staunchly behind the Red Fire Wall.

    ** THE SHORT STORY

    When ADOSH was first contacting CYFD and requesting interviews with their employees who had worked the Yarnell Hill Fire… they were simply told that CYFD employee Cougan Carothers was not ‘available’ for an interview because he had been on ‘medical leave’ since immediately following the Yarnell Fire due to ‘stress related issues’ as a result of his experiences on the Yarnell Hill Fire.

    That situation didn’t change for at least a month and half following the tragedy ( maybe more ).

    Even as late as August 15, 2013, when ADOSH was still asking, they were told that Cougan Carothers was still on ‘medical leave’ and still NOT on the ‘fit for duty’ list.

    CYFD never used the acronym PTSD… but they said directly ( multiple times ) that his ‘medical leave’ was ‘stress related’ and was allowing Carothers to (quote) ‘seek treatment’.

    After the last time they were informed that Cougan Carothers was still ‘on medical leave’ as late as August 15, 2013, they ( ADOSH ) basically just stopped asking about interviewing him.

    There is nothing to indicate exactly WHEN Cougan Carothers was finally taken off ‘medical leave’ and declared ‘fit for duty’ again.

    ** THE LONG STORY ( AND THE PROOF )

    Immediately following the Yarnell tragedy… at least TWO Central Yavapai Fire District ( CYFD ) employees who had been working in Yarnell on June 30, 2013 were designated ‘not fit for duty’ due to ‘stress related issues’.

    The ( at least ) two that are known to have been labelled ‘not fit for duty’ were…

    Cougan Carothers and Steve Emery.

    Just over a month after the tragedy ( on August 1, 2013 ), someone named Patty Brookins, who works as a ‘Human Resources Specialist’ for the Central Yavapai Fire District ( CYFD ), responded to an email that was sent to CYFD from ADOSH investigator Bruce Hanna.

    The original email from ADOSH investigator Bruce Hanna that requested this response from Patty Bookins doesn’t seem to be anywhere in the documents that were released by ADOSH… but based on the format and the content of Patty Bookins’ response, that original email from Bruce Hanna MUST have looked something like this…

    ————————————————————————————–
    From: Hanna, Bruce – OSHA State (AZ-SP)
    To: Patty Brookins, Human Resources Specialist, CYFD
    Sent: ???
    Subject: Central Yavapai Fire District

    Hello Ms. Brookins.

    My name is Bruce Hanna, ADOSH investigator working on the Yarnell Hill Fire investigation.

    We need information regarding ALL CYFD employees who might have worked the Yarnell Hill Fire… including ( but not limited to ) Todd Abel, Gary Cordes, Cougan Carothers, Charlie Reyes, Steve Emery, Matt McFadden, Ryan Ferris, and/or any other CYFD employee who worked the Yarnell Hill Fire.

    In each case ( and for each employee ) we need to know….

    1) Their full position designation.
    2) What their assignments were in Yarnell.
    3) The full scope of their possible contact(s) with Eric Marsh and the Granite Mountain Hotshots
    4) Their current whereabouts
    5) Whether they are available to be interviewed.

    Thank you in advance for your cooperation.

    Yours;
    Bruce Hanna, OSHA State (AZ-SP)
    ————————————————————————————–

    …or something like that.( since those are the questions Patty Brookins ended up answering for each CYFD employee in HER email response to Bruce Hanna ).

    Actually… even though there is no copy of that original email from Bruce Hanna, the ADOSH ‘Notes’ file that is ‘typed’ and ‘summarizes’ other ‘Notes/emails’ files and that seems to have been written by ADOSH lead investigator Bruce Hanna himself has some entries that refer to this exchange with CYFD HR person Patty Brookins.

    In the online ADOSH investigation documents folder…

    Dropbox / ADOSH Notes and Emails /

    Which is HERE…

    https://www.dropbox.com/sh/20inrene9tcx74a/AABe80KXlut_cz_6Ymv7e9gea/ADOSH%20Notes%20and%20Emails?dl=0

    From PDF page 7 ( out of 10 pages ) from ADOSH ‘Notes’ document
    named “L3419 Notes redacted.pdf”…
    —————————————————————————————
    CYFD NOTES

    Central Yavapai Fire District
    8555 E Yavapai Rd
    Prescott Valley, AZ 86314
    928-772-7711 Fax 928-772-8800

    Paul Nies – Fire Chief
    Scott Bliss- Fire Chief

    I sent an email to Chief Nies today July 29, 2013 at 1303 requesting a roster of personnel assigned to the Yarnell Hill Fire who may have had contact or knowledge of the location of the Granite Mountain Hot Shots on June 30, 2013. I was told by a Peeples Valley Fire Captain that Central Yavapai Fire District had some personnel on Shrine Road on June 30, 2013.

    Central Yavapai Fire District continued;
    I followed up today August 1, 2013 with a telephone call and email to CYPD Human Resources Director Patty Brookins – (928-772-7711 ext 3023). I received a list of personnel employed by Central Yavapai Fire District who were assigned to Yarnell Hill Fire on June 30, 2013.

    Need to interview Field Operations Supervisor Todd Abel and Structure 1 Supervisor Gary Cordes. CYFD Cougan Carothers was assigned to assist Division Zulu Supervisor Rance Marquez in establishing a division break between Division Alpha and Division Zulu.

    Mr. Abel seems to be regularly assigned to wildfires in the west and may not be readily available to be interviewed. Mr. Abel was subsequently interviewed on August 22, 2013. Mr. Cordes is scheduled to be interviewed on September 11, 2013 at 1100.
    —————————————————————————————

    These (typed) ‘summary notes’ never say any additional attempts were made to interview Cougan Carothers, even after he had ( at some point? ) been medically cleared to ‘return to duty’, but the ADOSH PHONE CALL LOGS do. ( See below ).

    Patty Brookins ( of CYFD ) responded to ADOSH investigator Bruce Hanna on August 1, 2013, and her email response says that both Cougan Carothers and Steve Emery were still ( more than a MONTH after the incident ) designated as ‘not fit for duty’ and still undergoing ‘treatment’ for stress related issues related to their participation in the Yarnell Hill Fire.

    She WROTE to Bruce Hanna…

    ———————————————————————————————————
    Chief Carothers has been off duty for medical issues related to this event, and has not yet been medically cleared to return to work. Steve Emery has also been off duty since the event and has not been medically cleared to return to work.

    We anticipate that Emery may be released to return to work sometime next week, and Carothers sometime in the following week. They are currently on administrative leave to seek treatment and to allow them time to recover from the critical stress they experienced with their participation in the recovery operations. All others have returned to their regular duties.
    ———————————————————————————————————

    SIDENOTE: The ADOSH call logs ( See below ) show that Cougan Carothers was NOT declared ‘fit for duty’ in the ‘next week’ timeframe mentioned on August 1, 2013. The ADOSH call logs from August 15, 2013 indicate that even 2 weeks after this email… Cougan Carothers had still not been declared ‘fit for duty’ again.

    Her ( Patty Brookins’ ) complete August 1 email response to Bruce Hanna is reprinted below.

    Notice below that in her response to Bruce Hanna of ADOSH, Ms. Patty Brooks seems to have already ‘interviewed’ each of the listed CYFD employees and is already providing some pretty good details about what each person’s assignments and responsibilities were on June 30, 2013… and what they did ( or did NOT ) do that day.

    Her email leaves no question that in each case ( and for each CYFD employee ), she ( or someone else ) had ALREADY asked them specifically about their ‘interactions’ with either Eric Marsh or Granite Mountain on the day of the incident, either before or after the deployment.

    If those ‘internal interviews’ that she ( or someone else at CYFD ) had already conducted prior to this email were either recorded or have written emails/responses/logs… that CYFD material would appear to have remained ‘internal’ to CYFD and has never seen the light of day.

    The FULL TEXT of Patty Brookins’ email response to ADOSH investigator Bruce Hanna is posted directly below as the first ‘Reply’ to this posting…

    ( Continued next ‘Reply’ )…

    • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

      ( Continued from above )…

      ** PATTY BROOKINS’ COMPLETE EMAIL SENT TO ADOSH ( BRUCE HANNA )…

      In the same online ADOSH investigation documents folder linked to above…

      Dropbox / ADOSH Notes and Emails /

      Which is HERE…

      https://www.dropbox.com/sh/20inrene9tcx74a/AABe80KXlut_cz_6Ymv7e9gea/ADOSH%20Notes%20and%20Emails?dl=0

      Filename: “Emails L3419.pdf”

      On PDF page 18 ( of 66 pages )…
      ———————————————————————————————–
      From: Patty Brookins ( xxxxxxxxxxxx ) ( Redacted )
      Sent: Thursday, August 01, 2013 4:09 PM
      To: Hanna, Bruce – OSHA State (AZ-SP)
      Subject: Central Yavapai Fire District

      Mr. Hanna:

      Here is the information you have requested on our employees who were assigned to the Yarnell Hill Fire, with notes about each employee’s position and involvement in the incident on June 30, 2013.

      Todd Abel:
      Joint Operations Chief with Paul Musser. In his capacity as Joint Operations Chief, Captain Abel supervised several Groups and Divisions including Eric Marsh of the Granite Mt. Hotshots. After the blow up event Captain Abel was assigned as the IC for the incident-within-the-incident. He is currently out on another wildland assignment and we are not certain of his return date.

      Gary Cordes:
      Structure Group Supervisor. Chief Cordes had discussions with the Granite Mt. Hotshot crew at the beginning of the shift, on the morning of June 30. We don’t believe he had any contact with them after that.

      Cougan Carothers:
      Strike Team Leader ( trainee ). Chief Carothers did not have contact with the hotshot crew prior to their deaths. He was part of the team that was assigned duties related to preparing for medical treatment and transport operations. Chief Carothers has been off duty for medical issues related to this event, and has not yet been medically cleared to return to work.

      Charlie Reyes:
      Engine Boss of Patrol 59 assigned to Structure Group. He was assigned duties to prepare for medical treatment and transport but returned to structure protection activity after others confirmed the outcome. We don’t believe that Reyes had any contact with the hotshot crew on that day.

      Steve Emery:
      Engine operator ( FF1 ) of Patrol 59. Emery was initially assigned to Structure Group as part of Patrol 59. After the event, Emery was assigned to work with Chief Carothers on duties related to medical treatment and transport operations. He did not have contact with the hotshots prior to their deaths. Emery has also been off duty since the event and has not been medically cleared to return to work.

      Matt McFadden:
      Firefighter II of Patrol 59. McFadden had no interaction at all with the hotshot crew.

      Ryan Ferris:
      Firefighter II of Patrol 59. Ferris also had no interaction at all with the hotshot crew.

      Our understanding is that Chief Cordes and Captain Abel have been interviewed by the the investigative team from Arizona State Forestry Division. We don’t believe that anyone else from our work team has been interviewed.

      Rather than give out their personal contact information, we would ask that you coordinate your interviews through our office. I can be your point of contact for scheduling those interviews.

      As stated above, Captain Abel is currently unavailable due to his wildland assignment, and Chief Carothers and FF Emery are still off duty; however we anticipate that Emery may be released to return to work sometime next week, and Carothers sometime in the following week. They are currently on administrative leave to seek treatment and to allow them time to recover from the critical stress they experienced with their participation in the recovery operations. All others have returned to their regular duties.

      Please let me know if you need anything further. Thank you.

      Patty Brookins
      HR Specialist
      Central Yavapai Fire District
      xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx ( Redacted )
      xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx ( Redacted )
      xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx ( Redacted )
      Office Hours: Tues – Fri 7am to 5pm

      I can think of no more stirring a symbol of man’s humanity to man than a fire engine.
      – Kurt Vonnegut
      ———————————————————————————————–

      So on August 1, 2013 ( a little more than a MONTH after the incident ), CYFD employees Cougan Carothers and Steve Emery had STILL not been declared ‘fit for duty’ because of stress related ‘injuries’ stemming from the Yarnell Hill Fire.

      She said Steve Emery *might* be declared ‘fit for duty’ again the following week… but there was no indication when Cougan Carothers might also be declared ‘fit for duty’.

      The ADOSH PHONE CALL LOGS will be supplied as a ‘Reply’ to this message… and they show that even as late as TWO weeks after this August 1, 2013 email… Cougan Carothers was STILL on ‘medical leave’ and had still not been declared ‘fit for duty’ again.

      • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

        ** ADOSH PHONE LOGS PROVE THAT EVEN AS OF AUGUST 15, 2013,
        ** COUGAN CAROTHERS WAS STILL NOT ‘FIT FOR DUTY’.

        An entry in the ADOSH phone call logs also has notes from a conversation with Patty Brookins which confirms that Cougan Carothers was still ‘out on medical leave’ as of August 15, 2013 and would still not be available for an ADOSH interview.

        Patty Brookins said on the phone ( on August 15, 2013 ) that
        (quote) “Cougan Carothers is still out on medical”.

        In the same online ADOSH investigation documents folder linked to above…

        Dropbox / ADOSH Notes and Emails /

        Which is HERE…

        https://www.dropbox.com/sh/20inrene9tcx74a/AABe80KXlut_cz_6Ymv7e9gea/ADOSH%20Notes%20and%20Emails?dl=0

        Filename: “L3419 YFD, Peeples Valley, CYFD field notes redacted.pdf”

        From PDF page 26 ( of 32 pages )
        ———————————————————————————-
        TELEPHONE CONTACT LOG

        Item #, Contact Person, Number Called
        Time, Date, Comments

        August 01, 2013…

        1, CYFD Chief Paul Nies, xxx-xxxx

        10:30 AM, 08/01/13 – Left message with Human Resources (HR) Dept.
        CYFD Administrative Offices – 8-5 PM / Monday – Friday.

        2, Patty Brookins, xxx-xxxx

        12:00 PM, 08/01/13 – Human Resources (HR) Dept. – Agreed to supply list of fire personnel assigned to Yarnell Hill Fire.

        12 days later ( August 15, 2013 )…

        3, Patty Brookins, xxx-xxxx

        10:00 AM, 08/15/13, Left Message regarding interview schedule + people.

        12:45 PM, 08/15/13, Patty returned my call.
        Todd Abel goes on vacation next week but may be available.
        Gary Cordes shoud be available.
        Cougan Carothers is still out on medical.
        Patty will email availability.

        4, Patty Brookins, xxx-xxxx

        03:13 PM, 08/15/13, Left message. Need to know if Gary Cordes
        is available for 08/22/13 interview. No time scheduled yet.

        14 days later ( August 29, 2013 )…

        5, Patty Brookins, xxx-xxxx

        12:12 PM, 08/29/13, ? time from ? Gary Cordes interview.
        May need 2 week ? to ensure WFA could assist to ??

        6 days later ( September 4, 2013 )…

        6, Patty Brookins, xxx-xxxx

        01:30 PM, 09/04/13 – Set up Gary Cordes interview week of Sept 9-12.
        ———————————————————————————-

        So… at 12:45 PM on August 15, 2013, Patty Brookins was still telling ADOSH that (quote) “Cougan Carothers is still out on medical”.

        That means he did NOT ‘return to duty’ in the week following her August 1, 2013 email to Bruce Hanna, as she had originally predicted he might.

        Following this August 15, 2013 communication, ADOSH just went ahead with the CYFD employee(s) Todd Abel and Gary Cordes interview(s) and stopped asking about ‘Cougan Carothers’ or ‘Steve Emery’.

        They also never pursued an interview with CYFD employee ( and Captain of Engine 59 ) Charile Reyes… who Gary Cordes told ADOSH was the one first informed him that Granite Mountain had deployed… when Cordes finally reached the RHR parking lot circa 4:50 PM.

        Cordes also told ADOSH his initial response to Captain Reyes was ( paraphrasing ) “BULLSHIT! They are in that bomb-proof ranch safety zone and they had plenty of time to get there”.

        Captain Reyes then (supposedly) told Cordes….

        “No. They never made it. They got cut off”.

    • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

      ** OPS1 TODD ABEL CONFIRMED THAT CYFD EMPLOYEES COUGAN
      ** CAROTHERS AND STEVE EMERY WERE ON THE ‘TEAM’ THAT HAD
      ** TO CONFIRM THE BODY COUNT AT THE DEPLOYMENT SITE.

      OPS1 Todd Abel confirmed ( in his ADOSH interview ) that the two CYFD employees Cougan Carothers and Steve Emery who were placed on ‘stress related medical leave’ immediately after the Yarnell tragedy were, in fact, on that team that had to confirm the body count at the deployment site.

      From Todd Abel’s ADOSH interview on August 22, 2013…

      A = OPS1 Todd Abel
      ———————————————————————————–
      2335 A: When – when the fire hit the – his trigger point. Um, and he bailed off and, uh,
      2336 it – so we – we were able to get a manifest from – from, uh, Brandan. Um, and
      2337 at the same time Jason Klasen calls me on my phone, gives me an address to
      2338 Helms’ place. Myself, Dean Stewart, Cougan Carothers and Steve Emery
      2339 start working out way back in here to go tie in with these guys. Um,
      2340 obviously, you can imagine it’s pretty chaotic in there. We get through and,
      2341 uh, go out to the ranch. Walk out there, you know, once again confirm that
      2342 we had 19.
      ———————————————————————————–

      So OPS1 Todd Abel confirmed to ADOSH that after the bodies were found, he and 3 others ( Abel’s former engine-mate and close friend Dean Stewart, CYFD employee Cougan Carothers and CYFD employee Steve Emery ) were then the first ones out there at the deployment site ( after Eric Tarr, Brian Frisby, Trueheart Brown, Jason Clawson, Aaron Hulburd and KC ‘Bucky’ Yowell ) to SEE and CONFIRM the body count.

      That means Cougan Carothers and Steve Emery definitely saw ‘all there was to see’ that day… and might have even been the ones who were told to put the ‘tarps’ over ALL the bodies which the YCSO detectives would then have to remove when they arrived around dawn the next morning.

  16. Joy A. Collura says

    many times I have tried to come to investigative media to some libraries blocked access to the site and even at home base I got 502 error messages…finally able to get here…I wanted to since I am not caving with Sonny right now share to all about the whole journey from the get go to being on the Yarnell hill…

    Long before I met Tex Harold Eldon Gilligan (Sonny)—I had a dream.

    jotted it here http://www.zazzle.com/texes_cousin_big_hat_rex_postcard-239922776172529398

    Product ID: 239922776172529398
    Created on: 6/6/2011 8:25 PM
    Texe’s Cousin…bIg hAt rEx Postcard
    description:
    backyard pals…our regal horned toad lizards playing around as I water…why I name them the way I do has to do with my hiking pals as well as dreams and recently I dreamnt I’d meet a man name Texe which means “those who are friends” so maybe it means I will meet more friends…that would be nice after all my losses…

    ———————————————————-
    All Summer 2011 Kat in Wickenburg—school teacher wanted me to look at her senior match profile…I kept saying “not interested”…”why not meet someone IN PERSON”…”aren’t you married?”…
    All along I was not interested until 8/17/11 at 16:48 I began to try to see her profiles but it required a log in…it took me many hours to send my license to verify me and create the log in necessities (DesertxWalker) to review her page and SonnyG was one…it was such a unique profile that to me assessing it I thought he is looking for a camp style gal or a woman seeking papers from another country…I joked about it. I like to talk history/numismatics/gunsmithing/reloading/ballistics/nancy drew/hardy boys kinda gal and he liked to talk about his life/Indian artifacts/Sitchen and we always talked about his hikes west of the Grand Canyon and mine here in Congress area. He said I was really ignorant. The drifts and mines I went to that in September 2011 he was sending me dangerous cave pamphlets and that I should never go in them alone.
    —————————————————-
    Tue, Aug 23, 2011 at 19:01 Sonny’s first message 🙂 and my first one was 8/23 16:49…
    I met my seniormatch penpal and slept there west of the Grand Canyon from 9/28-10/1/11 and he is a perfect genuine classy guy…and I really had a wonderful time learning about his rocks and just loved being there…meeting all the folks he sees ever so often…good man, good friends and loved the dogs/area…
    met on senior match 8/23 and very unlike me.
    met in person 9/28-10/1
    met again 10/3-10/8
    met and still known since 10/12/11 pioneering all over Arizona, New Mexico, Utah, Nevada—caves and all—
    ———————————————————–
    I KNOW where alot of Army and Indian artifacts are but I leave them there—when I told two people— Kenny Slomkowski of Congress Arizona was one and he said he did not take the very unique Indian hatchet so it sucked someone I trusted on the trails that knew about it took it but denied it…
    I learned I had to limit how I described the terrain as I hiked people and I learned I could not be PURE and that is pretty much how the I M page has transitioned for me yet Dale1 likes to take stabs that I thought the hikers like to tell it all…be pure… much resembles dialect of an email I got Tue, May 26, 2015 at 11:35 AM where one of our old bloggers on IM stated to me”it is not fair and pure for you not to.” and the word pure is used alot from this old blogger almost in a sliced way versus a person wanting to find the truth on the cell records as originally asked from this blogger what the hikers would like to see from this all way back in November 2013…
    ——————————————————————-
    I thought we lived in a world that was BIG BROTHER and nothing is sacred and secretive anymore—besides the secretive ways of the board how they publicly share the minutes to the Yarnell Memorial in their unlawful ways yet getting away with it or letting the public know where and when these meetings are seems unjust—and to label the area they died sacred when others have died in that very area before the 19 as well as many have fallen over time and their area as Marti Reed shared her brother’s story are not restricted like this 320 acres yet we can pick and choose who can go to the area like Holly Neill can but Gary Olsen—nah, he can wait for the GRAND OPENING—
    ———————————————————————
    I have done some genius actions in my time but the aftermath of the YHF has not been one…and even the times I came up with something I was the host channeling in from an unknown…I was born at St Joseph’s in Phoenix…I lived on Van Buren street and through the years made my way around all of Phoenix (N,S,W,E)…I was in kindergarten and made my “circus family” way to the class room always out with nature vs sitting in the classroom…my extremely giant father from Staten Island goes to the principal’s office saying “I heard you are calling my daughter retarded” in a very THICK NY accent…and the principal with wooping board paddle hanging on wall behind stated “No, I called you in because she has been tardy”…”your daughter seems to think the classroom is the outdoors”…
    REALITY CHECK…after elementary, junior high, hs and some college because I dropped out in NJ of college to do culinary and then head back to Arizona…MY HOME IS THE DESERT not a subdivision way the world wants to conform us…I can unwind there. Sonny will always be the ideal person on the trails for my health but his way to unwind= wine…he said Jesus turned water into wine…
    “I am what I am”…
    my father always said the above drunk…yet I say it here today sober that I am what I am…nothing special yet at least I don’t journey along saying something I am not…to GAIN…or pretend to be something else…I am simple ol housewife Joy…
    ———————————————————–
    Also there is some who want to have a view that I am into necromancy and that is sad to take what I say on this page and create that dramatic image yet its not reality. Just because I do not have any training in WHO IS THE AUDIENCE like an author or writer or journalist would…I share ME…but remember in the end I am not making a book or movie but the ones talking about me like such ARE…
    what happen to me…felt much like how Saul in the bible set up a woman.
    Because I had a request from another—I set appt up–than I got the reply that became world wide known—yet what a reply when this person does not even know me and my background but I can state there was no bad intentions just helping others reach clarity…Modern America are not really shocked much anymore but in the day (middle ages) I can see my help with no bad intentions could of had me burned at the stake…

    People of religion background…I am at bible studies this week and Sonny who has a bathide in religion/psychology/geology told me alot in the start of us knowing each other about ET/UFO and Sitchin stuff (I was skeptic before going into these caves on the topic) and how he was born to be a miner for the Gods. He loves mining. So Sonny mentions eloihm. Yet from my view wouldn’t it be PERCEPTION of such being you have this ELOIHM (plural noun) accompanying a singular verb.
    YOU= ME
    YOU= YOU
    singular
    yet YOU can mean plural like YOU out there—the audience of more than one.
    I also think alot of the aftermath of the YHF is simply perception…like where you sitting at in all this…

    ———————————————————–
    So we know 30% maybe on Gita Plateau and not much on the rest–right—why? with all our technology?
    That is how I sum up the YHF…why with all our technology couldn’t investigators GRAB those cell records to piece this as well as the ALIVE missing elements speaking up—why make a narrative when such a pattern of lives being lost and homes being burnt…
    Also how many of the wildfires are just happening to be near caves…hmmm…
    ————————————————————-
    How is it modern world; every action is being recorded yet with a stroke of a key we can research any topic; unlimited access…yet we cannot have the missing elements speak up and just hope for a leak some way some day and reason I keep gathering new accounts.
    ————————————————————-
    I have been in all kinds of caves…and in that…you begin to wonder about the things you eyewitness in these caves…especially the vertical cliff ones…
    ———————————————————–
    Sonny can you come on here and write about the aliens you met long ago in New Mexico; what town was it?
    —2-3ft tall with military helmets; similiar to nazi helmets—faces hard to see at dusk carrying weapons.
    you could not get close; 40-50 yards only. They could go through things much like a hologram.
    Explain the way they induced your mind, Sonny.
    he took a lie detector test and JUST WEEKS before the 19 men died Paramount CBS pictures interviewed us June 2013 on the topic of aliens and the photos I captured and what Sonny saw…
    ————–
    than let’s mention this topic on caves…an old prospector who visited my town from Montana every snowbird season would pick up desert trinkets eventually almost putting together a full pottery pot except missed a few missing pieces…I followed a family of owls one day to a vertical cliff cave miles away from where the old man got his pieces and in that cave I saw pieces and alerted him because I leave that stuff there—he eventually had someone go get them and it was the missing pieces—
    I feel by ME keeping at gathering information on YHF that maybe some day the right account will complete the puzzle and so even though Sonny thinks there is nothing else to do…we did our part…I feel it should be EVERYONES part to leave the door wide open.
    ————————-
    Sonny I wish you can come on here and share about the alien rock/meteorites you had me drive VERY FAR to make sure noone discovers them…what are they? why did you buy a $2,000 or so microscope just to analyze it and also had paid top mineralogists to examine it.
    Sonny KNOWS his shit and his minerals and was known as the Cashes Clay of mining…
    he was top paid in his field.
    I really want to go back there Sonny and talk about that and what was the rock formation in the mine near where the men died…
    ———————————————–
    At Bashas last night when I was with Sonny—went to Wickenburg for animals and feed—
    we bumped into a person near Helms and asked:

    QUESTIONS ASKED TO SOMEONE ON Deer Track/Ridgeway area:

    my question: were you home that weekend of the Yarnell fire?

    reply: i was home,

    my question: were you asked to evacuate?

    reply: not officially, blow horns. mumbling man. atvs. no knock on doors and way too late for even them being on that road alerting them for the homes were on fire when this was happening. This person knows alot more than shared and has probably the best account to date but wants to move away and remain anonymous.

    did any part of your area burn?

    all of it and then some.

    Did you see any fire people/vehicles?

    yes. little too late.

    Can I share any answers with investigators…the information given to me publicly or privately?

    don’t even bother…they don’t care.

  17. Joy A. Collura says

    a lady told me yesterday at Congress grocery—” I realize you have heard warnings similar to this one before, but this must be taken seriously! This information should NOT be ignored! As we speak, many elements are conspiring and you may not be aware of what they are, or the fact they are DICTATING your life path. However, they are and they do! “—the local lady is one of those crystal woosh Sedona kinds and I replied as I looked around to make sure it was me…it was and I just kept walking disregarding and not acknowledging her statement was meant for or to me and asked when dog groomer was due in as I passed by…

    QUESTIONS ASKED TO SOMEONE ON NORTON WAY
    (you want actual full name of person, she permitted me to state it and I will to main bloggers from day one via email):

    Date: Oct 15, 2015 7:56 AM

    my question: were you home that weekend of the Yarnell fire?

    reply: i was home,

    my question: were you asked to evacuate?

    reply: not officially,

    did any part of your area burn?

    no,

    Did you see any fire people/vehicles on Norton Way?

    no,

    Can I share any answers with investigators…the information given to me publicly or privately?

    yes.

    how is your petition going?

    I collected 5,800 or so sigs. Met with Karen Fann and presented them to her along with educational material regarding trapping. Asked her to sponsor a bill to ban use of these traps anywhere. She was very friendly and interested, but said that to sponsor a bill involved many votes by the Arizona legislature. She will let me know.

  18. Joy A. Collura says

    BOOK UPDATE:

    Thu, Oct 15, 2015 at 12:55 PM
    Hello, everyone. For some of you, it has been a while since we last spoke. For others, it was just a few days ago. Please know that none of you have been forgotten.

    This e-mail is going to close friends of the 19 Granite Mountain Hotshots and a handful of other people who had a big role in helping me with my book. I’ve gotten to meet all of the Hotshots’ families during the more than two years I have spent reporting and writing the book and many of their coworkers and friends. Through each of them — and through each of you — I got to know a lot about fire, weather and each of the 19 men we lost. They have taught me so much — about the meaning of brotherhood, the importance of loyalty, the depth of love and devotion for work and for family. I have no words to express how thankful I am to all of you for sharing your knowledge with me.

    I invite you all to visit my Website, http://www.fernandasantosbooks.com, and sign up to receive the newsletter, which is how I’ll keep folks who become part of the mailing list updated on the book’s release, events and readings. Also, under “Articles,” I’ll file periodical posts containing short lessons I learned while reporting and writing the book. The first one, called “Carrying our loads,” is already up. Please, read and comment. And if you like what you see, tell others to join the mailing list, too. We can also connect through my Facebook page — https://www.facebook.com/FernandaSantosBooks.

    The title of my book is The Fire Line: The Granite Mountain Hotshots and One of the Deadliest Days in American Firefighting. It is scheduled for release in May 2016 by Flatiron Books, a division of Macmillan, North America’s largest book publisher.

    My hope is that in my book, readers will find the same inspiration I have found to make every day matter, but also to ask the right questions when it comes to pushing for changes in the way we fight wildfires. My hope is that through my book, we’ll be able to start a conversation so that the story of the Granite Mountain Hotshots doesn’t forever live as a tragic story only. In this individualistic world we live in — selfish world, perhaps — I want their story to serve as an example of the power of teamwork and unity.

    Always feel free to write to me or call. My cell phone number is (917) 763-9876. If I don’t answer it’s because I’m on assignment — I returned to my regular New York Times duties in June — or because I’m busy with my daughter, Flora, who believes the guys are stars in the sky, just like I do.

    I hope to have you by my side as this journey continues. Because nothing is accomplished by one individual alone. As Eric Marsh and Jesse Steed used to say, we’re only as strong as our weakest link.

    My warmest regards,

    Fernanda.

    • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

      Thanks for that ‘heads up’ about this new planned book release, Joy.

      On the surface of it… it sounds like it’s not going to be much different from the Kyle Dickman book.

      I hope that is not the case.

      We shall see.

  19. Joy A. Collura says

    I was all packed…geared to shave my head…went for a long walk and hike today in Congress…ran into alot of faces today…like a Congress reunion…so many asked what’s new and I just said heading west to do my hair—“oh yeah…how?” and I replied probably number four on the man’s clippers—-they thought I was kidding…you see this Fall I really wanted to go to the Heights Church bible study program but Sonny thought it would be a bad idea because Willis and Donut go there…I explained I wanted to go to bible studies not see them— women’s not men’s—I liked the topic I was writing to one of the ladies from there at the Heights church—sounded cool. I would have no way to get there so I let it go—the guy who bought my Suzuki Savage was riding a kid’s bike and I thought where is my bike??? and he replied he had a mishap on it in Santa Maria…”oh my”…when I sold it it was showroom quality…oh well…I needed the funds for medical/labs/medical massages…you got to do what you have to do…well earlier this year one of Arizona’s top lawyers told me to darken my hair and I followed the advice and well I got BANGRY (angry about my bangs done wrong—way wrong) and the hair color was suppose to wash out…going from a level mix of 7.5-9 down to level one…darkest level of hair color–dark black with touch of reds…I could not handle looking in the mirror because I saw no signs of my natural dirty blonde golden locks…I wanted to shave it earlier this year and held off hoping the crap they glazed my hair with would wash out and it didn’t and I did an old school remedy recipe of a little of this and that (baking soda and vitamin c) to lift the color to a level 7 but I went to a no color orange nasty hue and so had to die it a dark blonde…the whole lawyer advice sucked especially when my appeals was denied…and ruined the hair to like straw—really??? So that is why I wanted to just shave it and start fresh…I was offered a master level FREE haircut at the women’s expo last Sunday but my gut did not much connect to any of the ones’ servicing such…anyways I guess slowly it will grow and slowly I will keep cutting 4-5 inches and eventually it will be okay…back to the kid that had bought my bike…he said he was heading to church…I said on Wed? and he replied bible studies…I said where and he said Grace Bible..>I said with Pastor Dave and he said yes…I told him I tried it a decade ago…hard to get me in a building never the less with that jokester…but who goes and he said…I thought to see ol faces I may so I said I had to go shave my head but maybe stop by…the lady who was going to do it had note on door that Mike needed her…be back later…so I went to dog groomer and she was done for the day but I would of let her shave it because I could not do it myself…and so I went to get a tea and that kid was there and I am telling the owner how I am like the comic strip— family circusing my way to a bible study…not exactly a direct path to it…the owner said “do you believe Joy?” and I explained I use to be a huge part in church…platformed in singing…taught bible studies and did workshops and seminars but when I kept losing people I loved and kept seeing less individualism and more system…I got lost…or never had a sound deeply rooted system…and it seem I carried a scale of judgement on the profess/confess ones…I always loved I Corinthians 13 and Romans 12…
    well anyways…I finally end up at the church—late of course—and warmly welcomed and great to see ol’ familiar faces and pastor Dave was “right on”…he made a joke the building was still standing after I got in because he did further heavier duty framing/construction since my last visit…and another time he said in the beginning it was Adam and Eve and God and I whispered—and the serpent—and he said “sure you would say that Joy”…I am known in Congress as “snake magnet” and snake re locator for free so it made some giggle…when we are going over the books of the bible and he said I am going to name a book and you tell me what is the next book or the before book…he went around the room to everyone…some were not doing so swell…when he got to me..I joked and said my life is rusty and my bible is dusty…doubt I can tell ya…He said what book comes after Exodus? I do not know how but quickly I said Leviticus…I did not know if it just STUCK in my mind because of Debra’s old email but I got it right…I was floored when he recognized how come this lady Joy who has not stepped in this building in ten years got it right but regulars got it wrong…as he said that I thought…There are 66 books in the Bible – 39 in the Old Testament and 27 in the New Testament. All of a sudden I was naming in my head all of them…so my bible is dusty and my life is rusty but my memory is still sharp—GUESS WHAT THE TOPIC WAS ABOUT?
    Good Marriage…first thing I think of is how we all look upon another and judge another for how we lead our lives and marriages like Sonny who can be down right cruel in his comments saying how can any man let his wife go pioneer with another man…I thought well you are safe Sonny…you been married six times…you have a bat hide in religion…you got skills and pure knowledge how to pioneer and I have seizures and pass out and alot of health stuff…so why not…I don’t see those others or you paying my bills so how I live my life is really not anyone’s business or right to judge…
    The funny part of the bible study was not about my marriage to John but to Jesus/God…GOOD MARRIAGE…We (all of us) are the bride of Christ and He is the groom. Seems kinda weird for me—
    when every one claims to be God’s church of so many faiths/beliefs/differ widely in biblical interpretation/practices…it seems impossible for the honest seeker of truth to investigate the claims of each one. I read Revelation 12 and 14. I read Revelation 12:1-17 before beginning my journey of discovery into these transforming truths. Simple Formulas. It was a longer bible studies than I thought…but reflecting back I noticed NOT ONCE during it did I think of the YHF…I was focused and paying attention…it felt good…yet I got a call from Sonny couple times during the studies and I usually take his calls due to his health but I found myself saying Lord I am going to let Sonny know I will call immediately after this…seem like pastor had diarrhea of the mouth as it seem to go on but I can tell you I wanted to hear more…every book has a dating mechanism…a time line…and really people should not just READ investigative media…they should come on here and publicly THANK each and everyone of us for never giving up on these men and all affected by the YHF…and trying to give the proper time line and openly without fear go over and over and discuss and disagree but we are doing PUBLIC not private and with most coming here with full names…by the way sorry Dale1…if I seem to give ya hard time and not others who do not have full name on IM…it is just I have a lack of trust on a few old bloggers and I just want to make sure you were not them…John Dougherty really deserves a thank you too. He really went deep and asked the hard questions in interviews not glazing it to appear how one would like it to be so thank you John Dougherty. I will never understand the begats in the bible…seems more like a good way to fall asleep…Adam at 130 y.o. begat Seth and lived after Seth 800 years…okay, so when you pay attention and realize all the numbers add them together and you have the timeline from creation to flood etc….I reckon that is exactly what we all are doing here on I M…trying to piece the time lines to properly assess the YHF since the SAIT did such a great disservice to all…so maybe in the end after it is all said and done…maybe people reading this get that…sure John MacLean and his research team are doing the same with their selective private not public groups but that is to create a book to make profit but what we have here is a living book never receiving a dime…day to day as we live our lives we still come to the old campfire here…
    we don’t want to come off as we have been labelled as obsessed or conspiracy theorists but we are doing the right thing by trying to gather as much information from every moment to that horrific weekend. Thank you everyone who writes here…more should come here and not JUST READ or SKIM but engage…I think it is time…

    Sometimes people keep information within, either because they are ashamed or really worried how others might react or because they do not want to hurt peoples feelings or may harm a relationship or career…In my first experience of social media here I have to learn sometimes the best reaction is no reaction or no reply—I think we are ready for the missing elements to open up now…

    The area I am restricted from the Weavers—
    if you ever go up there and gaze out on the valley below—-
    What a contrast! One place is the top of the world, the other the bottom. One place is perpetually cool, the other relentlessly hot. I miss the Weavers…I guess that is why I get frustrated at times…because I do miss them and what it has to offer…

    In my transitioning this past week, I have slept pretty good but not yet rested…been letting locals know of http://ycsoaz.sheltertrack.com/Public/Default.aspx where you really SHOULD register your pet because the locals stories I am hearing…I do not want to get into it but new system they are engaging in…another right and freedom robbed of us…when have you ever heard that the police dept needs to know how many pets you own…or register a cat???

    good night.

  20. dale1 says

    i can send you email joy wass your addy???….. you can email me the picturs an i can try todo a dropboxss if someeone else wont….//.

    • joy a. collura says

      dale1 says

      October 13, 2015 at 3:41 pm

      i can send you email joy wass your addy???…JUST CALL THAT NUMBER AND LEAVE ME AN ADDY AND I WILL SEND YOU THE EMAILS—.. you can email me the picturs an i can try todo a dropboxss if someeone else wont….//.THAT WOULD BE FINE. WITH MY TRANSITIONING OFF THE TRAILS I WILL NOT POST MY ADDY HERE.

        • joy a. collura says

          I use current cell to retrieve messages off the 480 cell and again this goes for anyone I do not know…I am not going to email ya without a voice saying this is my email addy so it is my kinda captcha security—and what you are looking to receive via email…

          plus folks who diss me as you have sided for another when not listening or knowing all the sides and you seem to be partial to just Holly—tell me why should I make the effort for you just because you posted some email addy for the world.

          I will think on it—

          • dale1 says

            sharing you pics or only with some?? hikers wanted all out ther… its ok….donnot email me if ya donnot want….. i donnt diss on u. not me style. dunno you or holley…,,,.. okkk??//

            • joy a. collura says

              dale1 says

              October 13, 2015 at 5:42 pm

              sharing you picsSURE—CALL OR STOP BY—MY ONLINE LIFE IS DIFFERENT THAN IN PERSON.

              or only with some?? ANYONE I SENT IT TO CAN SEE YOUR EMAIL AND DO IT

              hikers wanted all out ther
              NO IF SOMEONE SAYS SOMETHING…FOLLOW THROUGH IS ALL…AND I DID NOT SAY POST ADDY TO WORLD—I SAID CALL…I AM DONE WITH OTHERS NOT SHARING WHO THEY R TO ME YET EXPECT ME TO INCLUDE THEM… its ok…GLAD ITS OK.donnot email me if ya donnot wantEXACTLY…GIVE ME A VOICEMAIL WITH VERBAL REQUEST SO I KNOW YOU ARE NOT OLD TIME BLOGGERS UNDER NEW ID….. i donnt diss on u. YOU HAVE BEEN PARTIALnot me style. I CAN UNDERSTAND THAT YET WANNA ENGAGE ON FIRE THAN TALK TO ME FIRST NOT CYBER TALK—dunno you or holley…,,,..SHE IS A FINE LADY; HOLLY…ME; I AM HARD HEADED STUBBORN …TALK IN CIRCLES…RIDDLES AND GETTING READY TO PACK FOR HOLLYWOOD TO SEE OL PALS TO SHAVE MY HEAD AND HAVE ANOTHER KICK ASS DAY LIKE SUNDAY AND TRYING TO FIND A CERTAIN EMAIL SO I KNOW THE REGULARS AND WELL THEY TALKED ABOUT ANNE MARIE AND I ALERTED HER AND SHE REPLIED… okkk??//SWELL

              • joy a. collura says

                I hope you understand I am not trying to omit you—just need a voice since you cannot be on here with a full name so I know you are not an ol’ blogger under new id—if you cannot provide that than to me why out of my life and day and time take the effort for you if you cannot for me—ANYONE can quickly go make up an email addy just to receive an email—the main bloggers pretty much know another and communicate with another outside I M—so we all know each others ups and downs—
                I prefer my email addy not to be out right now after an Arizona State prosecutor fair warned me of a killer being let loose and for me to lay low…I have to explain this to Sonny and to you all—Marti knows what I mean—it seems just so darn easy to throw in the towel…walk away…Sonny seems to think as well as Grant Scott McKee—OK SO WHAT IF YOU PIECE THE PUZZLE—it does not bring back these men or his son or the homes and the pets and wildlife—and as Sonny said it for damn sure is not going to change the way they fight wildfires—Sonny really clicks with Gary’s way of thinking—I have to have HOPE because I smelled the death on those Weavers and the osha men and Eric Tarr and others understand what I am saying here…these men deserve the curtains open on all areas of this fire…they do deserve it.

  21. joy a. collura says

    I seriously could scream at the sadness of this here YHF aftermath and the lack of cooperation from the very people who fought on that fire…19 men died and so many homeowners lives changed too…so many lives changed…mine has…

    My focus today is to go through files ONLY…not even one ounce of me wants a visit or to visit anyone…
    seems every single time locals here I am off the trails with Sonny they have to call or text and tell me his life and not interested—or they want to visit or me visit and well I need some time to finally get these photos public that I have seen over time—
    I know locals read I M so I m publicly asking you all to live YOUR life and leave me out of the loop especially what Sonny is up to—
    Thank You.

    • Marti Reed says

      Joy-

      “the lack of cooperation from the very people who fought on that fire”

      That’s why I don’t think Cougan Carothers will cooperate with either you or us. He refused to cooperate with the ADOSH Investigation.

      They all stand safely and staunchly behind the Red Fire Wall.

  22. dale1 says

    joy where the link for dropbox pictures from annemarie…. i not seen them r they heer???…/// thankks///..
    r there 3 pictures by her annemarie?>…

    • joy a. collura says

      I have not led an organized online life for 4+ years now because of being on the trails-
      pioneering and caving and whatever else you can label it—
      I learned to dropbox from Marti and John D. earlier this year
      I am not spending the time today to do that because I am really trying to find six homeowners firefighter vehicle photos that I never had chance to email or post because of being on trails with Sonny so that is my focus than Norton Way but the main bloggers from the start I did forward the emails—so they can if they choose to do so—

      joy a. collura says

      October 13, 2015 at 1:16 pm

      resending you all the fire pics of Anna Marie sends me to your emails so check your boxes—
      Tue, Oct 13, 2015 at 1:13 PM she sent an email and I will forward it.
      To those who want the photos—if Sonny keeps shutting me off like he is and I am home not on trails than I got the time to do that—just not sure if I have the mifi—at 90% until 18th—

      • dale1 says

        joy whos the main bloggers..///?? being honest nobdody put the annemaire pics online not sharing themmmm you do not like when holly Neel withholds intel from you but ur not sharing annemarie pictures here ??….,,,/ why

        • joy a. collura says

          dale1 says

          October 13, 2015 at 2:20 pm

          joy whos the main bloggers..///??BETTER QUESTION- WHO ARE YOU?

          GO BACK TO JULY 2013 AND READ EACH CHAPTER AND SEE WHO HAS BEEN WRITING—I AM NOT DOING THE RESEARCH FOR YOU TO ANSWER YOU WHO ARE THE MAIN ONES—

          being honest nobdody put the annemaire pics online AND REALLY TODAY I AM NOT GOING TO ENGAGE WITH YOU BECAUSE AGAIN YOU ARE DALE1—CALL ME (480) 280-5813 AND LEAVE ME A WAY TO REACH YOU AND THAN WE CAN TALK ON GETTING YOU FIXED UP ON YOUR OWN SET OF EMAILS BUT OF ALL THE FREAKING PEOPLE ON TOPIC OF POSTING PHOTOS I DO NOT HAVE TO DO SHIT—I HAVE A COURT ORDER OVER ME SO I AM LIMITED—MY NAME IS OUT THERE AS THE EYEWITNESS AND SO MUCH MORE—WHERE IS YOUR NAME? DALE FREAKING ONE.

          not sharing themmmm DUH…I JUST DID…MANY PEOPLE HAVE IT—JUST CALL ME AND GIVE ME A CONTACT WAY TO KNOW WHO YOU ARE—THAN YOU CAN TOO—

          you do not like when holly Neel withholds intel from youYES, THAT IS GOING BACK IN HISTORY WHEN A WOMAN TELLS JOY “YOU GET INFORMATION AND TELL ME RIGHT AWAY AND I WILL DO THE SAME FOR YOU…”…THAT MY FRIEND WAS A ONE WAY ROAD I LED— but ur not sharing annemarie pictures here ??….,,,/ whyWHY SHOULD I…THE RIGHT PEOPLE GOT IT…IF THEY WANT TO SHARE THEY CAN…

          AGAIN I TOLD YOU AWHILE BACK I DON’T HAVE TIME FOR THE ONES WHO DO NOT LET ME KNOW WHO THEY ARE OFFLINE HERE IN SOME FASHION…GOT IT…YOU ARE ON YOUR OWN THERE—GO TO YARNELL AND ASK HER YOURSELF

  23. WantsToKnowTheTruth says

    Reply to Marti Reed post on October 13, 2015 at 6:15 am

    >> Marti said…
    >>
    >> Does it matter, that, if you are correct, Gary Cordes was just sitting there on the
    >> side of 89, watching the fire, when he says he was evacuating people from that
    >> neighborhood just northeast of Shrine Road?

    Yep. Sure does.

    It means there *might* be just one more thing that is a little ‘wonky’ with SPGS1 Cary Cordes’ testimony to investigators.

    However… if we accept ( for just a moment, anyway ) that Gary Cordes WAS driving that CYFD pickup WITH the camper top… then both of the following things would appear to be true…

    At 4:16 PM… he was still sitting way up there at that ‘observation’ point north of Yarnell, at that concrete driveway on the WEST side of Highway 89.

    At 4:45 PM ( time confirmed now by Anna Marie Lechner herself? ) Anna Marie Lechner photographed him just 1 block south of where Shrine Road meets Highway 89, heading SOUTH and ( apparently ) straight for the Ranch House Restaurant… where that same vehicle would then appear in the Russ Reason video circa 4:50 – 5:00 PM.

    So that leaves about 29 minutes ( call it a half-hour ) between 4:16 PM and 4:45 PM when we still can’t be sure WHERE he was.

    If he left that ‘observation point’ up there north of Yarnell right after that video ended… then suppose he DID have time in that half-hour to pull into the Norton Way area and be shouting out the window of the truck for people to evacuate… but not enough time for much more than that.

    If he didn’t leave that ‘observation point’ right after that video… I would say it becomes doubtful he had the time to do those other things he told investigators he did in the Norton Way area.

    We would also know now that Gary Cordes must have been IN his vehicle for pretty much ALL of that critical radio traffic that was about to happen between 4:16 PM and 4:45 PM… including all the captures of Cordes himself talking on the radio in those crucial 29 minutes and telling Blue Ridge to “Get out to the highway” and then him telling Tyson Esquibel to (paraphrasing) “Send some engines to the Boulder Springs Ranch and make sure Granite Mountain gets out of there safely”… and all the other things we hear Cordes saying in that 29 minute timeframe.

    PS: If we are also accepting ( just for a moment, anyway? ) that Cordes WAS driving the ‘camper top’ puppy… then I believe that is Cordes seen in the Russ Reason video standing near that same vehicle and near the porch of the Ranch House Restaurant in his WHITE Helment, holding his radio… and just sort of STARING off to the WEST towards what we now know was the ‘deployment site’ area.

    If Anna Marie Lechner really did capture him heading south on 89 at 4:45 PM… and that really is him standing near the same vehicle in the Russ Reason video… then that means he had basically just arrived there and this ‘staring out towards the deployment’ site was one of the first things he did when he got there.

    Cordes says Captain Reyes is the one who told him Granite Mountain had actually deployed… and Cordes’ first reaction was “BULLSHIT… they are in that bomb-proof safety zone and they had plenty of time to get there”. Captain Reyes then told him “No… they never made it. They got cut off”…

    But Cordes has still never said exactly WHEN Captain Reyes ( of Engine 59 ) told him that.

    If we accept the ‘timing’ above… then it appears that happened just moments before the Russ Reason video began… and that might be why Cordes seems to just be standing there STARING off to the WEST.

    • joy a. collura says

      Reply to Marti Reed post on October 13, 2015 at 6:15 am

      >> Marti said…
      >>
      >> Does it matter, that, if you are correct, Gary Cordes was just sitting there on the
      >> side of 89, watching the fire, when he says he was evacuating people from that
      >> neighborhood just northeast of Shrine Road?

      Yep. Sure does.

      It means there *might* be just one more thing that is a little ‘wonky’ with SPGS1 Cary Cordes’ testimony to investigators.

      REPLY;
      I AGREE WITH WWTKTT BECAUSE OF HOMEOWNERS TELLING ME THEIR ACCOUNTS—IT DOES NOT MATCH UP—YOU ARE RIGHT AND I WROTE ABOUT THAT AWHILE BACK

    • joy a. collura says

      So that leaves about 29 minutes ( call it a half-hour ) between 4:16 PM and 4:45 PM when we still can’t be sure WHERE he was.

      IN SOME ACCOUNTS PEOPLE STATED THEY SAW HIM AT THE OLD BANK AREA WHICH IS NOW THE FIRE DEPT OFFICE

      • joy a. collura says

        resending you all the fire pics of Anna Marie sends me to your emails so check your boxes—
        Tue, Oct 13, 2015 at 1:13 PM she sent an email and I will forward it.
        To those who want the photos—if Sonny keeps shutting me off like he is and I am home not on trails than I got the time to do that—just not sure if I have the mifi—at 90% until 18th—

    • joy a. collura says

      If he left that ‘observation point’ up there north of Yarnell right after that video ended… then suppose he DID have time in that half-hour to pull into the Norton Way area and be shouting out the window of the truck for people to evacuate… but not enough time for much more than that.

      REPLY—I WAS GOING TO GO TO YARNELL BUT HAD REAL BAD SPELL THIS AM BUT WWTKTT—I WILL GET BACK TO YOU ON THIS—I WILL BRING GARY CORDES PHOTO TO NORTON WAY BECAUSE I KNOW MANY ON THE STREET—THE STRANGE PART IS NOONE HAS EVER CONTACTED CHUCK TIDEY AND ASKED HIM…HIS PUBLIC EMAIL IS chucktidey@gmail.com…MAYBE IF YOU ASK HIM DIRECT IF GARY WAS STATIONED AT CHUCK’S HOME…CHUCK IS ON THE CHAMBER OF COMMERCE AND HAS SERIOUS HEALTH CONCERNS AND IS ON “BOTH” MEMORIAL BOARDS. HE ALSO IS CAPTURED IN ALOT OF HOMEOWNERS PHOTOS INCLUDING MY OWN SET AND YET HE TOLD SONNY STUFF AT THE LEGION ONE TIME SO I ALWAYS FELT HOW COME HE IS NOT IN THE SAIR…SEEMS LIKE A PRETTY IMPORTANT ACCOUNT BEING N AIR GUY AND ALL…I THINK HE COULD HELP ANSWER SOME QUESTIONS IF ANYONE WAS LOCATED AT HIS HOME AT THE TIME—THEY SOLD BUT THEY USE TO LIVE HERE:

      http://www.zillow.com/homedetails/16695-W-Cross-Way-Yarnell-AZ/87933181_zpid/

      I ALSO THINK THE FOLLOWING ADDRESSES AND THEIR ACCOUNT ON NORTON/THE AREA SHOULD BE PART OF THE INVESTIGATION OF YHF:22430 S Hackberry St,
      22076 S Norton Way, 22122 S Norton Way, 16695 W Cross Way,16625 W Cross Way, 16650 W Cross Way, 16482 W Norton Way, 16495 W Norton Way, 22183 S Norton Way, 22196 S Norton Way, 16894 W Shrine Dr, 1014.47+ ACRES OF REX’S, WHERE WE STAYED AFTER THE FIRE AT PHIL’S–21974 S State Route 89, 16366 W Norton Way, 16310 W Norton Way, 16276 W Norton Way, 21845 S State Route 89, 16049 W Allen Way, 22118 S White Ln, 17070 W West Way, 22611 S Lakewood Dr, 22425 S Sesame St,22622 S Sesame St , 17601 W Boulder Springs Trl , 22766 S Ridgeway, 17564 W Deertrack Dr, 17578 W Deertrack Dr,22783 S Ridgeway ETC…

    • Marti Reed says

      So I’m letting all the marbles in my head re-organize themselves. Mostly based on Todd Abel’s narrative. That helps, thank you. Honestly, I had nothing solid to counter my wondering (which I posted periodically) why TF Cougan Carothers was up there when Joy took those photos (to which I never got any response). And I had several things solidifying (both images and testimony) Rance and Cougan’s coziness (and possible mutual protection also), instead.

      There have been two key questions I have woven through my thinking since June.

      1. Who, leading up to and around 4:27 would have been “dis-engaged” enough with the fire to have been the one who drove Cory Ball to the Yarnell Fire Department to pick up the ATV? I really thought through Cordes (my first “suspect” all things considered), and decided, nah, he was too busy at the Norton Way area. I had him, in my head, there from probably about 4:10 ish until, as he said, he headed down to RHR to tie in with his crew and do a check (while not knowing about the deployment). And that’s why I figured he also hadn’t heard the MayDay convo mostly everybody else heard in some form or another. I just figured he was too focused on what he was doing to have been paying all that much attention to the chaos on the radio (except for, probably his tac channel with his crew).

      2. And then after The Plan™ emerged, I started focusing on who would have been, again, not so engaged with the fire specifically, and, thus freer (or whatever) to have been listening to and maybe even participating in those critical convos that happened at 4:16 (including the ones leading up to “waz yo status”) and 4:27.

      So I’ve been filtering a LOT of stuff through those two lenses. Because, I agree that THAT realm is CRITICALLY important.

      Even to the point of trying to determine if Ed K. might have come from the south. Which I don’t think is the case. Because he was someone who was, for the most part, wandering around most of the day watching and listening, [probably partly because there were fire-fighters from Wickenburg on the fire). So that’s the kind of people/stuff I’ve been focusing on.

      And also Clawson and Hulburg, who cross the Air2Air cam at 4:16, either of whom might actually be “on a radio.”

      And also Tony Sciacca, who was at that time trying to orient himself and gather info, and I had been thinking it was almost a no-brainer that it might have been him in the convo with Bravo 33 that led up to “waz yo status.” It would definitely have been in his scope to have been wondering who was where and under what conditions at that point in time. And the video, once i realized that was probably him standing there, started underscoring that line of thinking in my brain.

      Because I DON’T have time to focus on every little thing. Actually, I don’t have time, currently, to even be focused on much of any of this, but obviously I”m addicted.

      And, now I’m working on shifting a bunch of things around in my head.

      I have a question. Since I don’t have the Reason video on my computer, since I haven’t had time during all of this to schlep my hard drives over to my new/old house, do you think the guy that you think is Gary Cordes in the video is the same guy in all the Story photos hanging out with Cougan?

      Also, a new question has popped into my head, regarding those “later” photos in/around the RHR parking lot. It may just be my jumbled brain.
      And my lack of access to my timelines. (which I am sure are not even remotely as good as yours to begin with).

      Do you know how long Brian Frisby stayed over at the Deployment Site/Boulder Springs Ranch area before he came back to the RHR parking lot (based on something other than the photos we’re looking at)? The Official Notice of the Fatalities went out at 6:35 pm.

      And yes, I agree with you that the “photo under consideration” can sync with the Swartz photo. And I think Bob is incorrect in his assessment just downstream. But I also, in the past, and still currently, have thought that “fire” might mean something. Except I thought it might be somebody at the Yarnell Fire Department.

      I think part of the problem is that you (WTKTT) seem to have “resolved” this, way back when, in one configuration, while I “resolved’ it in a different configuration, and I don’t ever remember “us” resolving it at all. And once one of us “resolves” something, we then tend to build on it. And several stories can then get built on top of that resolution (pun intended).

      And, yeah, Joy, I hear yah. My first immediate thought after reading your “lost in the weeds” (paraphrased) comment was, “I just want to run away from this whole thing, screaming!!)

      Why is this fire still burning?????????????????????????????????????????

      Oh, yeah, there was never that official investigation report, that Gov. Brewer ordered, published.

      • Marti Reed says

        Oh, and PS. Another little headache/mystery that might “matter” that I’ve hinted at but never said clearly.

        I don’t think Paul Musser was driving the Incident Management Team truck. It doesn’t fit his timeline at all. But the State Fire truck in the middle of the collection, facing towards Marty Cole’s truck, does.

        And, therefore, one of my ongoing “unresolved issues” has all along been, “Who from the Incident Management Team, besides Musser, might have been there at the RHR parking lot???”

        I thought about Byron Kimball. But he may have gotten there a bit later than 5:06 PM, which is when the first of Story’s RHR photos was taken. And he said he had to keep moving his truck.

        I don’t know if the IMT truck is in the Reason video

        And that IMT truck passed the Air2Air camera only once, heading east, at 4:28 PM. Which doesn’t fit at all in Kimball’s timeline, as far as I know.

        So SOMEBODY drove that IMT truck from the Incident Command Post heading east, crossing the Air2Air video camera at 4:28 PM (one minute after the 4;27 Gamble video), and was one of the first people/vehicles on the scene at the RHR parking lot as Tom Story started photographing it. And I have no clue who was driving it.

        • Marti Reed says

          And I have never found a photo of Byron Kimball, although I have looked for one plenty of times. So I have no idea what he looks like.

        • Marti Reed says

          And also this:

          “CYFD captain retires; new captains sworn in”

          2/26/2013 9:50:00 PM

          “Central Yavapai Fire Captain Dean Steward retired after 25 1/2 years of service and received his retirement axe from CYFD Assistant Chief Scott Bliss at the Central Yavapai Fire District board meeting on Jan. 22.”

          “Courtesy CYFD
          Above, Central Yavapai Fire Captain Dean Steward shows his retirement ax Jan. 22.”

          http://dcourier.com/main.asp?SectionID=1&SubsectionID=1&ArticleID=116470

    • Marti Reed says

      WTKTT-

      I have been guessing, all along, that the guy in the shirt that says “Central Yavapai Fire” across the back is Captain Reyes. What do you think?

      • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

        Maybe. IIRC that also remains unresolved? Other candidate was that FF in Russ Reason video also seen at the back of Marty Cole’s white pickup near Brendan McDonough? Not the tall FF who was shielding Brendan from the video camera… but the other one on the side of the pickup who made that gesture to Frisby alerting him that the video camera was getting closer?

        I’m on airplanes solid again and no time to reply to everything else below… but regarding your question below about when Frisby and Brown got back to RHR after finding bodies at deployment site… I don’t believe they ever did return to RHR. I believe the BR GPS tracking DAT shows that when they drove back out the way they went in… they tookba LEFT off Shrine road onto Hwy 89 and went straight north in the BR UTV up to the Model Creek School ICP.

  24. Bob Powers says

    OK here I go on the discussion of who with the Cajun accent was or was not.
    The first place to look is for a Fire camp Dispatcher.
    Why? I think at the time of the News camera capturing this person calling Granit Mountain was in front of Fire camp. Not at the Resteraunt.
    WTKTT–Said there was a word in the beginning that sounded like Fire- Granit Mountain Wuz yo status. Natural call out —- FIRE TO– GRANIT MOUNTAIN——–
    Short for Fire Camp To—-Some times Granit mountain —Fire Camp’

    I think we discussed earlier that this transmission was picked up with severial different frequencies in one location and that the camera was in front of who ever was talking. It was at the school Fire camp area.
    It could have also been a check in station at the entrance to the Camp with one or more equipment officers monitoring severial Radios or Frequencies.
    So what I am suggesting this was a request by the IC at Fire Camp Dispatch to get a check on Granit Mountain. As Marti says that’s my 2 cents.

    • Marti Reed says

      Bob–I think you are way off regarding the photo.

      i agree with WTKTT that it is another version of the group shown in the Swartz photo that was taken at 6:43 PM, at the front of the RHR parking lot, probably by the guy in the red helmet in that photo. It just all lines up.

      By the way, I just found that in the “official timeline,” the “official” time when the fire jumped 89 was 6:39 pm. For whatever that’s worth.

      • joy a. collura says

        By the way, I just found that in the “official timeline,” the “official” time when the fire jumped 89 was 6:39 pm. For whatever that’s worth.

        REPLY:
        who narrated it jumped? The videos we saw was no jump but drip torches—curious to know who said it really jumped and what gps coordinates did it land? We saw different…

          • Bob Powers says

            Hay Marti the comment on my observation above I was not talking about the Photo but attempting to Identify the Speaker with the Cajon accent.
            Unless I am Missing what you are saying..

            The person with the Dark complexion in the Middle with their back to the Camera I believe is a Native American. He has the build from a few I have known.

            • Marti Reed says

              Then I have absolutely no idea what you mean by this:

              “I think at the time of the News camera capturing this person calling Granit Mountain was in front of Fire camp. Not at the Resteraunt.”

              First of all there is no News camera photo capturing a person calling Granite Mountain and second of all the News camera photo under discussion was taken in front of the Ranch House Restaurant parking lot.

              What am I missing?

              • Bob Powers says

                Maybe my old brain—-
                But where ever the radio traffic was captured with the voice and recording it sounds like it came from a Radio Operator in Fire Camp based on the Message. I may have got confused on where it was recorded. Sorry

  25. Joy A. Collura says

    WWTKTT:

    Mon, Oct 12, 2015 at 8:03 PM

    Anna Marie Lechner:
    Looked on my computer and could not find any times on the pictures but I believe that was the approximate time.

    • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

      Thank you Joy… but what ‘approximate time’ is Anna Marie now referring to?

      My best guess is around 4:45 PM, based on the fire that is seen in the background of her photo and its position when cross-plotted onto Google Earth.

      Is Anna Marie now AGREEING with that estimate of 4:45 PM?

      • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

        Followup…

        Anna Marie Lechner seems to be saying she definitely still has those original photos on her computer and she was able to locate the files.

        Is there any chance she could ’email’ the originals to you… and you could forward them to me?

        There is still a chance there is important EXIF timestamp metadata embedded in the photos.

        Sometimes its even just in the original FILENAME(S) themselves… but you have to look carefully to realize that’s what some of those ‘numbers’ are in the filename(s). Depends on the camera/smartphone that was used.

  26. WantsToKnowTheTruth says

    **
    ** ANOTHER PHOTO OF COUGAN CAROTHERS

    Replying to my own message from down below… just so it doesn’t get ‘lost in the weeds’ and it ends up with the following TWO links in the same place…

    This all relates more to Gary Olson’s original question somewhere down below about whether the FFs in that ‘WORLDNEWS’ photo taken at the Ranch House Restaurant AFTER the fire had mostly burned through Yarnell were ever fully identified.

    It is still highly likely that is Cougan Carothers in the BLACK Helmet on the left side of that photo, and that that is his no-camper-top CYFD pickup seen in the background of the same photo ( and also on the left of the Swartz photo that was also mentioned. )…

    >> On October 11, 2015 at 12:01 am WTKTT said…
    >>
    >> Actually.. there really is little doubt that that IS Cougan Carothers seen in
    >> the black helmet on the left edge of that WORLDNEWS ‘photo in
    >> question’ that Gary Olson posted a link to.
    >>
    >> There is a CLEAR picture of Cougan Carothers on the Central
    >> Yavapai ‘Senior Staff’ web page… which is here…
    >>
    >> http://www.centralyavapaifire.org/index.cfm?section=15&pagenum=232
    >>
    >> If you compare that photo of Carothers with the FF in the ‘photo in question’
    >> and just imagine >> him not smiling… squinting a little… and with a ‘helmet’
    >> on… there’s not much reason to doubt >> that’s him.
    >>
    >> So that just confirms what I said above.
    >>
    >> That probably IS Cougan Carothers in that ‘photo in question’ and that just
    >> makes it more apparent that that CYFD pickup WITHOUT the campertop
    >> also seen in the same photo(s) is the one that HE was driving that day…
    >>
    >> …and Gary Cordes really was driving the CYFD pickup WITH the campertop.

    Found ANOTHER good ‘full-face-to-the-front’ photo of Cougan Carothers… but this time there’s no need to ‘imagine’ what he looks like with a helmet on.

    Cougan Caruthers does a lot of white-water rescues… and this July, 2010 ‘Prescott Valley Tribune’ article has a full-front photo of him doing just that…

    http://www.pvtrib.com/print.asp?ArticleID=51380&SectionID=1&SubSectionID=1

    The photo is over on the RIGHT side of the article… and Cougan Carothers is wearing the BLACK helmet and looking right at the camera.

    I’m still seeing a ‘facial match’ for that FF on the left side of the photo Gary Olson was asking about.

    • Joy A. Collura says

      WWTKTT said:
      “”” just so it doesn’t get ‘lost in the weeds’ “””

      I am not helping with this …am I…I feel lost in the weeds trying to find the ONE…email…

    • Joy A. Collura says

      Cougan Carothers-
      were you at the wildfire thing at Bucky’s this year—you look too and I mean too familiar—
      dop·pel·gäng·er is what Sonny calls a person who looks like another—

      • Joy A. Collura says

        I think I will figure it out—but this man—I think he has a young girl that looked like me at that age—I will focus to this guy now because I am tired and not sure if he was part of memorial stuff and the anniversaries or saw him on Shrine road or Bucky’s wildland fire academy thing or I am getting a stronger sense I met him mountain biking…is he named after his dad’s name of some kind…I am going to email him and direct him to this site because I was so focused to other areas but its the name that first hit me…and never did before…ever…what is his tie to Gary Cordes…is Cougan the actual guy and not Gary who the homeowners described that day and so there is a reason we got directed to this area—so let’s figure out why…I will email him now and ask him to please peak here to answer some truck questions…
        now, good night.

  27. Marti Reed says

    So a little bit downstream I wrote:

    “Marti Reed says OCTOBER 12, 2015 AT 8:26 PM

    Oh, and if you want a REAL challenge, riddle me THIS photograph, taken by David Kadlubowski:

    https://www.dropbox.com/s/qqrhfdabjzjsk5n/RHR.tiff?dl=0

    Or does this not matter?”

    And then I wrote:

    “Marti Reed says OCTOBER 12, 2015 AT 8:28 PM

    I honestly don’t know what matters and what doesn’t matter at this point, any more.”

    ———————————————

    While thinking still about that photo that Joy took of those two fire-fighters up on the peak of that ridge, and that she brought to us with great passion, thinking it was of Eric with someone, and I thought “Nah, that’s probably someone related to Moki Helitack (for various reasons)…….but WHO KNOWS?????)

    So all of a sudden we seem to be fixated on which truck Gary Cordes was driving versus which truck Cougan Carothers was driving, a bit of an argument we are having………..

    ……that WTKTT says is IMPORTANT…………

    ……..triggered by Gary Olsen asking who was in a photograph that included a truck and some fire-fighters (one of whom I still think is Black, but it may be the case that Bob Powers is right that that might not be the case), and WTKTT is now saying someone in that photo is Rance Marquez and then I am saying how and why I totally disagree with that and……..on and on we go, and……I’m finally finding myself asking, via various comments…………..

    How do we determine what matters and is important and what isn’t????

    ——————————————-

    And then “dale1 says OCTOBER 12, 2015 AT 5:24 PM

    in the joy photo 1(40).jpg there’s a 2nd truck so whose truck is that ???? …// the GM sup and chase trucks are there and the dozer but there’s 2 other truks there not just the red one with the camper top.
    who’s truck is that 2nd one….//??”

    Is that worth spending time figuring out???????

    I guess what I am trying to say is that, after almost two years of working on this, because I thought that that little “detail” that I thought was important when nobody else did — that camera sitting in the middle of that deployment site that seemed to be completely invisible to everybody else on the planet — I’m really at a loss as to what, at this point in time, is truly important and what isn’t.

    And how do we determine that?

    Does WTKTT (who thinks the current conversation over which truck is Gary’s and which truck is Cougan’s is really important) determine that?

    Or do I, with my issues about that red-helmeted guy in the RHR parking lot and that IMT truck whose timeline gives me headaches?

    I mean, I really don’t know, at this time, which way to turn. And I have a WHOLE BUNCH of other stuff I should be devoting my time to.

    What do people here think is important and what do they think isn’t?

    • Joy A. Collura says

      “””How do we determine what matters and is important and what isn’t????

      What do people here think is important and what do they think isn’t?”””

      my reply is IT IS ALL IMPORTANT
      because one can read my emails and think what the hell is this now?
      It is trying to find the ONE but seeming to find the others…and thought what if I go all out and share it like it came to me…what if Janelle’s article noone ever knew about because she was asking me for permission has a piece of importance so to me it is all and I mean ALL relevant and important. We will all look at things different or we look at YHF at different phases…what is important to one at this moment ain’t to another…and what if me sharing Willis email gets you to understand him and where he is at…this is really a unity…togetherness thing not HIDE your sources kind of journey…anytime Sonny and I are off the trails you all become more of a direct focus…because I lead a very simple life of helping locals and my hikes and my desert critters-

        • Joy A. Collura says

          December 14 2013 7:53pm

          which Putnam got cc and Johnny Kirkley

          Moses said both Ted Putnam and John Dougherty seem to be really digging into the guts of this thing and Putnam is the best I know.

          I hope more finally join the discussion and gather more info…

          when I wake up I may pause on looking for that ONE email and focus to this Cougan Carothers—you are looking way too familiar—

          good night

    • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

      Marti… yes… that photo that Gary Olson ended up a ‘tree’ with a lot of ‘branches’.

      That’s just how it goes here, sometimes.

      What Gary was REALLY wondering is if any of those FFs in that ‘photo in question’ could have been the one making that “Granite Mountain, ??, Wuz yo status rat now?” radio callout at 4:13 PM.

      The answer to THAT basic question is still a resounding ‘maybe’.

      Until we know WHO all these people were having direct communications with Eric Marsh in the time when Mike Dudley and Jim Karels said they could not ‘verify’ that was happening… then these ‘callers’ could have been ANYONE with access to a radio that day.

      In the course of trying to figure out who those FFs were ( that Gary Olson asked about )… the CYFD pickup in the background came into the conversation.

      You were sure it was Gary Cordes’. I realized that I was not.

      I posted the new ‘Anna Marie Lechner’ photo from July that was just another photo of that CYFD truck WITH the camper. You said there was no way that was Gary Cordes’ truck… that it had to be Cougan Carothers.

      I DISAGREED… and all I wanted to do then was simply try to figure out if we could put this ONE SINGLE THING ‘to rest’ and whether I really should have to change all the existing annotations on that ‘Anna Marie Lechner’ video I just posted.

      I’m willing to do that… but only if I SHOULD.

      I still think there is COMPELLING evidence to prove that the CYFD truck WITH the camper top was, in fact, the one that belonged to Gary Cordes.

      But what I was hoping would NOT happen would that the attempt to focus on just answering that one lingering question about a specific thing ( who was driving the puppy with the camper top ) would turn into a ‘shotgun blast’ of “yeah… but what about this… and what about this… and what about this?”

      Well… that’s what happened.

      I think ALL of the “well… what about this, too?” questions during the recent discussion are equally important as the one were just trying to ‘nail down’. I really do.

      I was just hoping we could ‘nail it down’… and then move on to the NEXT one… and not try to solve every single question that started flying around… all at the same time… in this (very) limited WordPress medium.

      Yes… more often than not… every single mystery with this absolute fuster cluck that is/was the Yarnell Hill Fire just seems to bump right up against piles of other ‘unsolved mysteries’ and ‘lingering questions’. due to the absolute piss-poor ‘official’ investigating that was done…

      …but I still think we can solve a lot of these ‘lingering’ mysteries by just FOCUSING… and taking them ONE AT A TIME ( like I was hoping we could do on this campertop-campertop-who-had-the-campertop? thing ).

      Example: I d NOT know WHO all four of those FFs are standing there in that Blue Ridge photo showing the Rance Marquez meeting. I really don’t… and I DO think it’s important to ‘figure that out’… but whether or not that really is the other CYFD truck WITH the camper top there alongside the one that does NOT have a camper top… or whether or not that really IS Gary Cordes standing there on the left side ( I don’t think it is )… is IRRELEVANT to solving the specific question that was on the table if you accept the fact that we might have just PROVED that there was no way Cougan Carothers could have been out in the Sesame area prior to the time Joy took TWO different photos showing the CYFD truck WITH the camper top out in that area.

      Maybe Cordes really did make it out to that ‘get together’ even after he had just given Marquez and Carothers ‘directions’ how to get out there themselves. Maybe Cordes did just drop what he was doing in town and go BACK out there just to be part of that ‘meeting’ between DIVSZ, his assistant, and Frisby and Brown.

      I don’t know. Sure… it’s possible.

      But that still does NEGATE the evidence we have that it was still MOST LIKELY it was Gary Cordes driving the puppy with the campertop and Cougan Carothers driving the one WITHOUT the camper top.

      I still think if there is ANY chance that solving some of these mysteries with the vehicles and ‘who was where’ leads to a better understanding of who MIGHT have been the multiple people communicating directly with Eric Marsh when Mike Dudley and Jim Karels said that was NOT happening…

      …then it’s all worth it.

      So let’s just continue to take things ONE AT A TIME.

      It’s all we can do.

      • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

        And in case anyone hasn’t noticed in my own recents posts… I am going to stop referring to ‘the SAIT’ as if it was some dis-embodied entity.

        It wasn’t. There were specific decision being made by specific people that ended up producing the most worthless fire investigation document in the history of Wildland Firefighting ( following the greatest tactical blunder in the history of Wildland Firefighting ).

        USFS employee Mike Dudley and Florida State employee Jim Karels WERE ‘the SAIT. Make no mistake about it.

        THEY decided what it was going to ‘look like’.
        THEY decided to ignore the directive that was given to them by the ‘transfer of authority’ signed by Arizona’s own GOVERNOR and ignore the fact that they were also being paid to produce a standard ‘factual management report’ along with namby-pamby document they DID publish.
        THEY are the ones that decided was was ( and was NOT ) ‘verified’.
        THEY are the ones that decided what was to be reported, and what was to be left totally hidden from view.
        THEY are the ones who decided what they would share with ADOSH.

        Everyone else just ‘worked’ for these two guys.

        I still think some of the fine men and women who did their best to do THEIR jobs working on that report were SHOCKED to see the final one-document-only published result(s)… and maybe one day ( soon? ) we will start hearing from THEM as well.

    • Marti Reed says

      Well, since I’m still not certain what’s important or not (partially because I’m still not certain whether or not identifying the fire-fighters in that “photo under consideration” will lead us to determining who is talking in those radio communications under discussion)……

      I spent a chunk of time yesterday reading all the incident reports from 2015 on the Lessons Learned site, to see whether or not the issues regarding the Wildland Urban Interface would show up in them.

      None of them has anything to do with the WUI stuff. It’s all just the same old same old.

      So, for what it’s worth, there’s that.

  28. Joy A. Collura says

    Going back to the beginnings…I will stay on ten more minutes and look under another email addy and see what I can find from July 2013…We emailed him Wednesday, July 17, 2013 4:25 PM and he replied Fri, Jul 19, 2013 at 8:19 AM

    Sonny & Joy, Thank you for your note and your interest. I have forwarded your information to Deputy State Forester Jerry Payne and he will contact you directly. We are very interested in seeing anything that you have to share and appreciate you getting in touch with us. Very best, Jim

    Jim Paxon, Information Branch Chief
    Arizona Game and Fish Department
    5000 West Carefree Highway IEIN
    Phoenix AZ 85086
    Phone 623.236.7226 / Cell 602.920.8053
    jpaxon@azgfd.gov / Fax 623.236.7903
    http://www.azgfd.gov

    • Joy A. Collura says

      You all can begin to see WHO had the interest and WHERE in July 2013—
      I am going back to try and find the one email but if I see others—you will see it how it unfolded for the hikers—

      On Sun, Jul 21, 2013 at 8:23 PM, Bill at Wildfire Today
      Sonny-

      I saw the article about you guys that appeared in the Daily Courier, and posted an excerpt from it at my web site where I write about wildland fire. I have covered the Yarnell Hill Fire extensively. My article that mentioned you is here:
      h t t p : / / wildfiretoday.c o m/2013/07/21/hikers-photos-of-granite-mountain-19-before-the-tragedy/

      I was very impressed with what you guys did, and it’s great that you’re going to provide some information for the investigation team so they can figure out how to prevent other firefighters from experiencing a similar fate.

      Would it be possible for me to use some of your photos on WildfireToday.com ?

      • Joy A. Collura says

        Thu, Jul 25, 2013 at 9:47 AM
        Hi Joy and Tex,
        I am so glad you survived the fire. It sounds like it was quite the experience. You were the fortunate ones. It is so tragic that the 19 hotshots died. You, probably better than anyone know what they must have gone through.
        Best wishes,
        Peter Morrison
        Executive Director
        Pacific Biodiversity Institute
        PO Box 298
        Winthrop, WA 98862
        pm@pacificbio.org
        http://www.pacificbio.org
        office phone: 509-996-2490

        • Joy A. Collura says

          Tue, Aug 20, 2013 at 3:12 PM
          Hi Joy and Tex.
          Would tomorrow morning (Wednesday) or Friday morning work for you to hike…? My boss really likes the idea of us going there with you.
          And you can absolutely post the picture of me with both of you!
          Thanks,
          Morgan

          —his video got archived but it was the best story from where we stood because this man took our way too to get a feel of everyone’s position that day even the hikers—yet John D. in his flip flops sandals so relaxed was too cool— laid back. Reminded me of my brother Paul—

          • Joy A. Collura says

            Sun, Aug 25, 2013 at 12:48 PM

            not posting it because it was a private email from Karen Fann to Sonny—
            I am not on it anywhere—but in our YHF hiking files.

            note:
            Karen Fann has been involved with Sonny’s journey coring to evacuation where Don Alexander who died and Sonny got gifts from Karen Fann…she always has been very warm and kind to Sonny.

              • Joy A. Collura says

                Wed, Oct 30, 2013 at 1:13 PM
                Hi Joy,
                I’m one of the editors at FireRescue magazine. One of the investigators for the Yarnell Hill Fire wrote an article for our December issue about the release of the investigation report about the fire, detailing the incident and lessons learned. He put me in touch with Jim Karels, who I contacted about some of the photos in the report. I had specifically asked for the photo of the hotshots hiking, and he let me know that I would need to reach out to you about using the photo. I was wondering if you would be willing to send me the photo that you took of the hotshots that appeared on p. 17 of the report (attached). We would of course credit you for the photo, and we could provide compensation according to our photo rates if you would like (payment depends on how large the photo runs in print).
                Let me know if you need any additional information about how the photo would be used.
                Thank you,

                Janelle Foskett
                Managing Editor
                FireRescue magazine – FirefighterNation.com

                PennWell San Diego
                4180 La Jolla Village Dr. Suite 260
                La Jolla, CA 92037
                858/638-2614

                • Joy A. Collura says

                  MY FILES ARE SO UNORGANIZED—it really stinks–I am tired…

                  Fri, Jul 26, 2013 at 8:58 AM

                  Thank you for the information. I know you say lower brush, but I also saw unburned branches that were above my 6′ height that are still remaining, so I estimated 10′ brush and I realize due to my experience that it was in places over 10′ knowing the age of the vegetation is over 40 years old. I hope you can get some peace in the fact that I know they did not go down there to deploy or seek refuge, they went down to protect the ranch. The fire behavior due to outflows from the thunderstorm caused the blow up, wind estimates of gust fro 80-90 mph. I don’t believe the aircraft fanned the flames. This is my opinion based on facts and a 37 years of fire experience. I am sorry for the emotional stress you are going through and wish I could provide you more comfort. DW

                  Darrell Willis, Division Chief
                  Prescott Fire Department
                  333 White Spar Road
                  Prescott, AZ 86303
                  (928)777-1701 Office
                  (928)776-1890 Fax
                  (928)925-7311 Cell
                  Mon, Nov 18, 2013 at 7:39 AM

                  Joy,
                  Thank you for writing back to me and your kind words. Wayne and Holly are special people who are set on finding out the truth. I trust them as well as John Maclean and provided them anything they wanted or needed from me. Thank you for spending time with them and giving them the details you have. I am committed to the truth on this tragedy as I know you are. Again, thank you for the e-mail and your encouraging words. I truly hope God blesses you. DW

                  Darrell Willis, Division Chief
                  Prescott Fire Department
                  333 White Spar Road
                  Prescott, AZ 86303
                  (928)777-1701 Office
                  (928)776-1890 Fax
                  (928)925-7311 Cell

                  • Joy A. Collura says

                    Some off the topic of YHF but in reading and skimming emails and personal ones back and forth—got to say Fall 2013 Holly Neill really had alot of heart and warmth…I may not like that she has hidden sources and speaks public because I want to be educated and I think the world as well…yet I know she has some very solid sources and I can see to this day she is the strength to many—fine lady.

                    • Joy A. Collura says

                      another person where we did not always share the same vision but she too has had alot of heart and is a real neat lady…even though in January asked me the questions she did in regards to a matter that unfolded…it seem like she began to be partial in the matter…I mean why ask me those personal questions about Sonny…was he finally being thought of to pull him in as well???
                      build a better dramatic platform?
                      the lady:
                      Joanna Dodder Nellans
                      reporter/videographer
                      Daily Courier newspaper
                      1958 Commerce Center Circle
                      Prescott, Arizona 86301
                      928-445-3333 ext. 2035
                      jdodder@prescottaz.com

                    • Joy A. Collura says

                      Sat, Dec 21, 2013 at 10:45 AM

                      this was when I got the fair warning from Charley Moseley on Holly—and how Charley said Tex reminds Charley of him and he told me that many men will click to Sonny throughout this process because we will he said—so I he said being Joy will always be on the back burner unless its negative than I will be brought to the forefront. He also said:
                      “I have been around a lot of arsonists in my time, and government employees who seemingly wanted their fire to ‘Go Over The Hill’. It is a well known problem and occurrence in the fire fighting business. Last year we had an Oklahoma Firefighter caught red handed when, unknown to him, a locater chip was in his vehicle and showed that the vehicle was at the exact location of 11 new arson fires–when they started. HE IS SERVING TIME IN THE STATE PEN!

                      Please keep up the good work. I think we need to create a medal of freedom, or something to honor the two of you for the outstanding job you have been doing. Without your bona fide info–and pictures–I think the bad guys would have hidden a lot more.

                      Best regards,

                      Mose”

                    • Joy A. Collura says

                      Fri, Dec 20, 2013 at 4:41 PM

                      Thanks you two, and it is so good to hear from you again, and to also see your very astute observations of what is happening. Way more than anyone else, we Firefighters do owe both of you a big debt, both for being up there that day, and your willingness to give voice and photos to what you observed–without trying to hide anything!

                      Yes, I am like you in that with the publication of that OSHA Report, the doors have been really opened up to lots of daylight. And even further, the forced publication of that recording of the last minutes for our Granite Mountain Hotshots, does show that the State of Arizona was really trying to hide information and evidence that might disprove their BS stories. The people in charge of Arizona government are really in for a kicking, I am figuring.

                      Take care, and the very best to both of you, and yours,

                      Mose

                      PS>Please stay tuned for a little warfare in the coming days. We have developed a strong difference of opinion between me and some folk. I think you might enjoy where this is going and learning just who was trying to poke fun at your opinions and observations as to the helicopters rotor wash.

                    • Joy A. Collura says

                      Fri, May 23, 2014 at 9:06 AM

                      I received a copy via email of the SJM July2014 with Holly Neill and let me explain she has very much invested alot of time and love and energy and finances throughout this process and for that I think she should be given respect and my only concern since December 2013 was what Moses shared to us and the behind the scenes talks about the hikers no one was letting us in on…yet she was top notch even the Memorial Anniversary weekend 2014 squeezing me in to hike her friends and Eric Marsh’s best friend and Kodas and Roth family when I saw a part to her I only heard about happening to another but then it happen to me…so to me she became “show me the sources to get to those conclusions” and nothing else meant a thing to me…how the hell could I think such I know after all the kindness…right…well, it was how it unraveled for me…

                    • Joy A. Collura says

                      Funny read this…and funny to listen to what he said about me publicly January 2015…and in a few months I have plenty that God guided in 2015 to share in mid January 2016 to you all—

                      Fri, Nov 21, 2014 at 8:41 AM

                      Thank you for your comments and the pictures. I appreciate the fact that you and Joy continue to seek answers to the reasons our firefighters lost their lives on June 30, 2013 and all you have done to provide information to get to the bottom of the this. I am committed to the truth no matter what the outcome is, that is what the Granite Mountain Interagency Hotshot crew would want as well as Eric Marsh. So others would avoid another tragedy like this. Thank you for including me with your information. DW

                    • Joy A. Collura says

                      Ered Matthew is really a terrific human being.

                      He snail mailed me and asked to speak with us-

                      Sonny and I were in one of our off times but Ered’s visit had me back at the camp with Ered and Sonny—
                      God bless that freaking mess—
                      I was embarrassed but Ered seem to be so down to earth genuine and the two hit it off…

                      thank you Ered for all you did for these families.

                    • Joy A. Collura says

                      also Katie Cornelius— special thank you for all her efforts with the fence in Prescott-

                    • Joy A. Collura says

                      Sat, Dec 27, 2014 at 12:50 PM

                      THIS IS THE DATE where I will in 2016 explain where all the stuff cored to….

                • Joy A. Collura says

                  hey—red flags—I am not seeing alot of emails on the other addy—I will rearrange my schedule this week to stop and see if that other person has it on my hard drive there—
                  hope so because Joanna Dodder was the first to reach out to us and I am not seeing hers or Josh Eells stuff….and Brian Mockenhaupt—I did locate the off the wall one Sonny sent to Alex Jones on July 11 2013 but he can post it…I am only posting ones between hikers…even saw the one he did to air specialists and fbi…
                  Dec 16 2013 7:36am Pyne who is not writing a book and John MacLean tied him into us…hike with fire historian Stephen Pyne was simple but probably him and Kevin Kennedy and Forghani were the ones in the safe zone…and kept it pure and simple in what they did…Pyne was involved with MacLean yet he mentioned Santos too so they must of inquired to him being a fire historian…great man…yet ain’t it WEIRD that a FIRE HISTORIAN could not get the lay of the land from Willis and went to the hikers thru MacLean???? Pyne was neat to speak with…15 seasons on a fire crew at the North Rim and 3 writing fire plans for the National Park Service…than traded his pulaski in for a pencil…neat man and he is in John Dougherty weather channel piece too.

  29. Joy A. Collura says

    it seems pretty sad a blog has to dissect who was who and what vehicle was being driven by who—this is the kind of shit the world should of seen in SAIR…
    should of listed vehicles with driver.
    It should of listed Paul Morin’s account…
    etc etc etc…

  30. dale1 says

    in the joy photo 1(40).jpg there’s a 2nd truck so whose truck is that ???? …// the GM sup and chase trucks are there and the dozer but there’s 2 other truks there not just the red one with the camper top.
    who’s truck is that 2nd one….//??

    • Marti Reed says

      After looking at and comparing just about every photo of every vehicle on this fire, I have no clue what truck that is. I haven’t seen it anywhere else.

      I also have no clue what the truck in Joy’s photo (22) is.

      There was a lot more going on up there that morning than just Gary Cordes (and/or Cougan Carothers — a Yavapai County Fire District Battalion Chief who was originally dispatched as a Strike Team Leader before he was ever assigned to Rance Marquez) and the dozer.

      • Marti Reed says

        PS. Just for reference regarding the timing of these photos.

        I finally decided that the timestamps on these morning photos are about 4 hours early, having synched them with Joy’s photo (27) which shows a Blue Ridge IHC buggy approaching their eventual parking area, which we know (via Cory Ball’s photos) happened around 10:40ish AM.

        Somebody else’s mileage may vary.

        Somewhere around noonish (I’m writing this from my memory banks) Joy’s camera’s timestamps went haywire again in some different way. But pretty much the pre-noon photos seem pretty synched timewise, it’s just that they are timestamped about 4 hours early.

    • Joy A. Collura says

      I find it funny you all can view my pics but I can’t—I gave all the YHF stuff to someone for safe keeping for 2015.

      • Marti Reed says

        Yikes. I didn’t know that.

        I have only downloaded the ones I wanted to work with.

        I could easily download the rest of them (the images on JD’s dropbox) and burn them to a CD.

    • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

      Reply to dale1 post on October 12, 2015 at 5:24 pm

      >> dale1 said…
      >>
      >> in the joy photo 1(40).jpg there’s a 2nd truck so whose truck is that ???? …
      >> // the GM sup and chase trucks are there and the dozer but there’s 2
      >> other truks there not just the red one with the camper top.
      >> who’s truck is that 2nd one….//?

      It’s never been identified.

      At NO TIME during the ADOSH interviews ( even though they already had all these photos ) did anyone EVER even SHOW any of these photographs to anyone and ASK them who owned some of these vehicles and what the fuck were THEY doing ‘out there’?

      Absolutely astounding.

      And Marti is right… the truck seen in Joy’s photo “1 (22).JPG” has never been identified, either.

      • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

        Followup…

        >> WTKTT said…
        >>
        >> Absolutely astounding.

        Actually… when it comes to the ADOSH investigation… it’s not ‘astounding’ that they didn’t do “The Full Monty” and fully investigate this incident… for TWO reasons….

        1) That really wasn’t their job. Jim Karels and Mike Dudley ( and their SAIT employees ) were supposed to have more ‘interest’ in doing the most in-depth investigation possible… and getting the most possible ‘Lessons Learned’ out of it so that these ‘Lessons’ could save lives in the future. Not ADOSH.

        2) There were LIMITS on ADOSH. There are MAXIMUM FINES that they are/were allowed to impose on any single employer… and when it comes to that fuster cluck of a workplace called “The Yarnell Hill Fire”… ADOSH started ‘pegging the meter’ on the ‘maximum fines’ even before they finished doing their first round of interviews.

        So there were a lot of other ‘interviews’ that ADOSH could have done… and a lot of ‘questions’ that ADOSH could have asked… and a lot of ‘mysteries’ that ADOSH could have solved… but once they realized how screwed-up that workplace was and it was ‘pegging the meter’ on the fines they were even allowed ( by law ) to impose… they basically just issued those citations and called it a day.

        That’s all they could do.

        It will still probably take some kind of court case ( but it will only take ONE single court case ) to ever get a lot of the people who were never even interviewed ‘into a room’ to even just get depositions… OR have them look at the existing evidence ( photos, etc. ) to see if THEY can ‘fill in the blanks’… if for no other reason than to at least make sure the historical record for this HISTORIC incident is accurate.

  31. WantsToKnowTheTruth says

    **
    ** ARIZONA PARKS ( AND THE YARNELL MEMORIAL BOARD ) HAVE POSTED A PUBLIC
    ** NOTICE SAYING THAT THE PROPOSED PARK IS ‘CLOSED TO THE PUBLIC’.

    The official Arizona State Parks hosted-website that was created for this “Yarnell Memorial Site Board” has always been HERE…

    http://azstateparks.com/committees/Yarnell.html

    Someone has just now ADDED a ‘blurb’ to the very TOP of that online ( PUBLIC ) page which states the following…

    —————————————————————————–
    The Park is currently closed to the public while under development.
    There are no public roads or trail access available.
    —————————————————————————–

    So it looks like news travels fast.

    It’s been confirmed now that the Arizona State Land Department themselves has nothing to do with that land anymore… and that any/all ‘Closure Orders’ they might have had relative to that parcel of land became ‘null and void’ the moment the land was SOLD to someone.

    That ‘someone’ is, of course, the Arizona State Parks Department.

    It also seems to be obvious that someone in the State Land Department became painfully aware recently ( but reading this Forum, perhaps? ) that there is no similar ‘Closure Document’ in effect for the land to replace the one(s) the Land Department had in place.

    So they have just done what I thought they would do.

    Instead of just leaving it as an ‘assumption’ that this new ‘State Park’ is CLOSED to the public until there is some kind of ‘dedication’ ceremony and it is declared officially OPEN… they have chosen to make sure they have posted something PUBLICLY which confirms this ‘default state’.

    In other words… no assumptions necessary… it’s CLOSED because we SAY it’s closed… and it will only be OPEN when we also SAY it’s OPEN.

    And ( as the ‘owners’ of the land )… I don’t think they need any kind of ‘document’ to back that up like the State Land Department was required to have.

    That still doesn’t address the issue, however, of the BOUNDARIES of the land being CLEARLY MARKED. Unless they are ( clearly marked out there )… it would be VERY difficult to ever try and prosecute anyone for ‘accidentally’ trespassing onto some portion of the ‘State Park’.

    ** WHERE ARE THE MINUTES FROM THE SEPTEMBER 18, 2015 MEETING?

    Even as of today… there are still no ‘minutes’ posted at the PUBLIC website above for the “Yarnell Hill Memorial Board” meeting for the previous September 18, 2015 meeting of this PUBLIC Board.

    That’s coming up on a MONTH now since that meeting concluded.

    The LAWS regarding any PUBLIC meeting of a duly established ‘Arizona Public Board’ REQUIRE those minutes to be published within 72 hours following a meeting. The LAW also states that a PUBLIC Board is NOT supposed to wait until the ‘draft minutes’ are ‘approved’ at the NEXT meeting before posting those ‘draft minutes’ publicly.

    Indeed… this ‘Yarnell Hill Memorial Site’ PUBLIC Board seems to know that… because some of the minutes they HAVE posted publicly still have the ‘Draft Minutes’ watermark all over them.

    The September 18, 2015 meeting was supposed to be the one where Board Member Amanda Marsh was going to ‘present’ the results of her little ‘unsupervised’ polling of the ‘family members’ about what the actual PUBLIC access to this State Park should look like.

    So it’s highly likely that this Board has ALREADY decided what the real ‘access’ is going to look like ( for the general public )… and it’s only US ( the ones who are actually PAYING for this PUBLIC Park itself ) who don’t know yet.

    ** THE DEDICATION CEREMONY – JUNE 30, 2016

    The July meeting minutes ( which WERE eventually published as the the LAW requires ) stated that the ‘Board’ is actually shooting for a June 30, 2015 dedication ceremony.

    I got to thinking what that is actually going to ‘look like’.

    Given the absolute HISTORIC nature of the tragedy itseld… it’s obviously going to be a BIG DEAL and ‘anybody who is anybody’ will most likely want/need to be there.

    Politicians, Fire people, Family members, News media galore… etc. etc….

    But what about the PUBLIC?

    Is the PUBLIC even going to be invited to this historic ‘dedication’ of a PUBLIC Park?

    Remains to be seen.

    I also wonder what that ‘day’ itself is going to look like… ACCESS wise.

    Are they REALLY going to require anyone and everyone who wants to attend this HISTORIC ‘dedications’ of this new Arizona State PUBLIC Park to do the TWO MILE HIKE?

    I seriously doubt it.

    So what’s the ‘other plan’ for that day itself, then?

    If Lee and DJ Helm don’t ‘go along’ with (maybe) some kind of ‘plan’ to just use their property as one big ‘parking lot’ for all the satellites trucks and politicians cars… are they just going to declare ’eminent domain’ ( for that one day? ) and just TAKE OVER the ‘Boulder Springs Ranch’ and use it as the ‘staging area’ for this HISTORIC event?

    Or will there be Helicopter Shuttle flights out to the site… from somewhere?

    I believe that for SOME of the actual ‘Family Members’ who DESERVE to be in attendance that day… there is NO WAY they will be capable of making any kind of 2 mile HIKE to get there.

    So there has to be some kind of ‘alternate (easy) access plan’ implemented for that day of the ‘dedication ceremony’ itself… and the clock is ticking.

    If they really are shooting for a June 30, 2016 ‘Dedication Ceremony’… then it’s already past time for them to start planning for THAT… and those plans need to also start appearing in the PUBLIC minutes from the PUBLIC meetings of this PUBLIC Board.

    • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

      Typo above… I typed 2015 where I should have typed 2016.

      The line above should have read like this…

      “The July meeting minutes ( which WERE eventually published as the the LAW requires ) stated that the ‘Board’ is actually shooting for a June 30, 2016 dedication ceremony.”

  32. WantsToKnowTheTruth says

    **
    ** WHO WAS REALLY DRIVING THE CYFD PICKUP WITH THE CAMPER TOP?
    ** GARY CORDES… OR COUGAN CAROTHERS?
    **
    ** DISCUSSION CONTINUED…

    >> On October 11, 2015 at 12:54 pm, Marti Reed said…
    >>
    >> I’m not feeling as “done” as you are with this. And I’m just waking up after something
    >> of a rough night. But one of the reasons I’m not feeling as “done” as you are is that I
    >> never was able to be “done” with it, as hard as I tried. I really hated (and still do)
    >> working on this endless rabbit (at least it was a rabbit hole for me) that I worked on
    >> for endless amounts of time until I just finally got sick of doing it and moved on to
    >> where everybody else was at.

    I understand… but I think if we just forget about all the ‘who’s who’ in the photographs from later in the day for a moment and just focus on this ONE issue of WHO was really driving that CYFD Red-with-white-stripes pickup WITH the camper top ( Cordes or Carothers? )

    I believe we CAN either nail it down… OR relegate it to the “until there is more evidence we just can’t be sure” category.

    And I think it’s important to do that.. once and for all.

    So the question is… IS there some piece of evidence which would establish, for sure and certain… WHO was driving the CYFD command vehicle with the camper top that day?

    I still believe there IS… and ( once again ) it would be because Joy Collura was in the right place, at the right time, and doing the right thing that Sunday, June 30, 2013.

    She was ‘documenting’ what was happening that day… AS it was happening.

    The images that Joy Collura freely and transparently shared with the SAIT investigators ended up in their own special folder in the SAIT documentation… and that folder is still HERE…

    https://www.dropbox.com/sh/02ue6bnjp6nazkm/AAAQHmeW4AtE4acHagKGrrcSa/Photos%20and%20Video/Hiker%20Photos%20Videos/Reduced%20Photo%20Images?dl=0

    In that folder there are TWO images that CLEARLY show this CYFD command vehicle WITH the camper top installed ‘out there’ in the Sesame area in what ( I believe ) is DEFINITELY a ‘morning’ ( as in… before NOON ) timeframe.

    The were both in the same ‘grouping’ of photos that includes the ones showing the Blue Ridge vehicles first ‘arriving’ in the Sesame area… and we know now for sure and certain that was in the 10:30 AM range… almost 2 hours before Rance Marquez and Cougan Carothers would ever set foot out in that Sesame area that day.

    So any kind of ‘before NOON’ timeframe for these photos can ONLY mean that it was Gary Cordes who was driving that CYFD command vehicle WITH the camper top installed that day.

    Probably the most definite of the two would be the image in that folde named…

    “1 (40).JPG” ( 8th row down, 3rd from the left ).

    This photo of Joy Collura’s seems to be showing that moment when Gary Cordes says he instructed the dozer operator to ‘put a ring’ around the Granite Mountain Superintendent and Chase trucks, which were parked at the top end of the Sesame area where that east-west two track that the Granite Mountain Hotshots used to hike up to the ridge that day begins heading WEST there at the top of the Sesame area.

    Gary Cordes was ‘out there’ at that time in the morning… and this was definitely a MORNING event… long before Rance Marquez and Cougan Carothers ever showed up in the Sesame area.

    On the left side of the photo is the Red-with-white-stripes CYFD command vehicle that DOES have the ‘camper top’ installed.

    So IF that photo really was taken in the MORNING timeframe… then it would appear to be proof ( positive ) that Gary Cordes was driving the CYFD pickup WITH the camper top.

    The SECOND image that appears to establish that Gary Cordes was driving that CYFD pickup WITH the camper top would be the image named…

    “1 (25).JPG” ( 5th row down, 4th image from the left ).

    This is that photo of Joy Collura’s that show 3 vehicles out on one of the two-track roads in the Sesame area… and it was ALSO taken in what appears to be the same MORNING ( as in… before NOON ) timeframe… and from the same ‘vantage point’ out on the ridge as the other photos in this ‘grouping’.

    From left to right the vehicles shown are…

    The Dozer, the CYFD Red-with-white-stripes command vehicle WITH the camper top, and then one of the Blue Ridge Hotshot’s Chase trucks.

    An FF with a yellow Nomex shirt and a WHITE helmet is standing in front of the CYFD command vehicle and appears to be gesturing/talking to someone to the left, near the dozer. He LOOKS like he definitely could be Gary Cordes. ( Same height, build, and the WHITE helmet… etc. ).

    Given the (apparent) MORNING timeframe for this photo… it could still assumed this is Gary Cordes seen standing in front of that CYFD command vehicle and the reason the Blue Ridge Chase Truck is there is because this is the moment that Blue Ridge Hotshot Cory Ball had just been driven out there to take over the DOZB/HEQB job from Cordes.

    Again ( as with photo “1 (40).JPG” )… all that has to be proven is that either one ( or BOTH ) of these photos were taken BEFORE NOON… and they would BOTH represent proof that Gary Cordes was driving the CYFD pickup WITH the camper top installed that day.

    Actually… this gets very simple.

    Joy… are you reading this?

    You don’t have to remember the EXACT time these two photos were taken… but do you remember whether it was definitely in the MORNING ( as in… before NOON )?

    If the answer is YES… then both of these photos prove it was Gary Cordes driving the pickup WITH the camper top installed.

    No matter where this discussion goes from this point… I’m still going to need a ‘talk down’ and/or an explanation as to how Cougan Carothers could have been ‘out there’ in the Sesame area in the same ( morning ) timeframe as when these photos were ( apparently ) taken.

    • Marti Reed says

      I’m 60% convinced that you might be right.

      Without any testimony from Cougan Carothers, I don’t think it’s possible to know whether or not what you are saying is accurate.

      • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

        Reply to Marti Reed post on October 12, 2015 at 4:07 am

        >> Marti said…
        >>
        >> I’m 60% convinced that you might be right.
        >>
        >> Without any testimony from Cougan Carothers, I don’t think it’s
        >> possible to know whether or not what you are saying is accurate.

        Well, we don’t have any DIRECT testimony from Carothers as to his whereabouts that day… but we DO have INDIRECT testimony from Rance Marquez himself that when he and Carothers first headed down towards Yarnell circa NOON that day… that it was the first time that EITHER of them had been ‘down there’ that day.

        In one single section from Rance Marquez’ ADOSH interview, he seems to CONFIRM all of the following…

        1. It wasn’t until NOON or NOON-THIRTY before he ( Marquez ) ‘got it together’ to
        make that first trip out to the Sesame area.

        2. Cougan Carothers was assigned to work with Marquez ‘at the last minute’, and
        just before this ‘scouting trip’ down to Yarnell took place circa NOON to NOON-THIRTY.

        2. He and Cougan Carothers were ‘working together’… but they both had their ‘own vehicles’.

        3. This was the FIRST TIME either he or Carothers had been ‘out there’. They both considered this a ‘scouting mission’ since neither one of them had been out in the Sesame area prior to this time.

        Q1 = Bruce Hanna, ADOSH investigator
        Q3 = Dave Larsen, ADOSH / WFA investigator ( Rest in Peace )
        A = Rance Marquez, DIVSZ
        ———————————————————————————–
        243 A: And by the time I left, um, so by the time I got radio – radio’s cloned and maps
        244 and mobile clone – handheld cloned, all that kind of stuff, um, you know, it was
        245 about 12:00 – 12:30 before I – about 11:30, 12:00 to – to – and 12:30 before I got
        246 a ICP. At the last minute, um, another individual was assigned to go with me uh,
        247 by the name of Cougan Carothers as a Strike Team Leader Trainee.
        248
        249 Q3: Okay. So he – he travelled with you that – that…
        250
        251 A: He did.
        252
        253 Q3: …day?
        254
        255 A: Well he did. In individual – we both had our own vehicles. We’re kind of
        256 looking at this as a scouting mission not being in the area yet.
        257
        258 Q3: Right.
        259
        260 A: And – and um, we’re also told to go uh, tie in to get some more intel from uh, the
        261 structure group in the Yarnell uh,
        262
        263 Q1: Carothers?
        264
        265 A: No um, I have his name written down here. I can’t remember his name, but uh,
        266 Gary Cordes was structure group – was the other – was the structure group in
        267 Yarnell. Now I got uh, in – tied in with him right there at the grocery store and
        268 uh, and gas/gas station etcetera and um, he kind of got me s- got myself and
        269 Cougan um, dialed in as to where the road access was and that kind of stuff back
        270 into the area where Eric and – where Eric was working – well, where Granite
        271 Mountain and um, also Blue Ridge…
        272
        273 Q3:
        ——————————————————————————–

        Marquez said…
        ————————————————————————————
        255 A: Well he did. In individual – we both had our own vehicles. We’re kind of
        256 looking at this as a scouting mission not being in the area yet.
        ————————————————————————————

        Notice that Marquez uses the PLURAL ‘We’ ( meaning BOTH he and Carothers )
        when he says… “not being in the area ( the Sesame area ) yet ( that day )”…

        Marquez also says that after consulting with Cordes… Cordes got BOTH he
        and Carothers (quote) “dialed in as to where the road access was and that
        kind of stuff back into the area”.

        If Cougan Carothers had been ‘down there’ in Yarnell and ‘out there’ in the Sesame
        area at any time prior to this ( NOONISH )… then it was Cougan Carothers who
        should have been able to get Marquez “dialed in as to where the road access was”.

        He didn’t. Marquez says they needed SPGS Cordes to do that for BOTH of them.

        I believe all that can be considered at least a ‘good’ shred of PROOF that this was
        the ‘first’ official ‘assignment’ for Cougan Carothers on the SOUTH side of the fire
        that day… and that he had NOT been ‘out in the Sesame area’ at any time that
        morning, in any kind of vehicle.

        • Marti Reed says

          That could very well be true.

          However, since you trust the veracity of Marquez’ testimony much more than I even remotely do, how do you explain this, which I wrote downstream, after you wrote how much you trusted Marquez narrative of how Marquez and Carothers didn’t meet with Cordes up there at the scene of the Blue Ridge Buggies:

          “Who do you think the person on the far left of the group lined up in Papich’s photo is? I went through a LOT of comparing photos of Gary Cordes with that person and publicly determined that that person on the end was Gary Cordes, regardless of Marquez narrative (which has a NUMBER of holes in it). The discrepancy between Marquez’ narrative and this photo (among a number of OTHER discrepancies) has left me totally scratching my head, and not even remotely trusting Marquz’ narrative.

          If you look at that photo again, you will see that that lower-slung truck with the camper shell is sitting right behind the big truck without the camper shell, sandwiched right between the big truck and the Granite Mountain Hotshots buggy.”

        • Marti Reed says

          I need to reiterate right here what I wrote just a bit upstream. And that is that Cougan Carothers, a Yavapai County Fire District Battalion Chief, was dispatched to this fire as a Strike Team Leader WELL before he was assigned to work with Rance Marquez.

          That little factoid is related to my thinking about all of this.

          • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

            Marti Reed says

            Reply to Marti Reed post on October 12, 2015 at 6:25 pm

            >> Marti Reed said…
            >>
            >> I need to reiterate right here what I wrote just a bit upstream.
            >> And that is that Cougan Carothers, a Yavapai County Fire
            >> District Battalion Chief, was dispatched to this fire as a
            >> Strike Team Leader WELL before he was assigned
            >> to work with Rance Marquez.

            When you are ‘dispatched’… and when you actually ‘arrive’ and ‘check in’ to the fire can be two completely different things, as you know.

            Todd Abel has testified that BOTH Rance Marquez AND Cougan Carothers ‘checked in’ on the fire up at the ICP at the SAME TIME… and that’s why he “put them together”. See below.

            >> Marti Reed also said…
            >>
            >> That little factoid is related to my thinking about all of this.

            You have already said that you simply “don’t trust” any of Rance Marquez’s testimony… but what about what Todd Abel testified to?

            We know that Rance Marquez wasn’t there first thing in the morning… he arrived in the LATE MORNING that day and that’s why he wasn’t really ‘jumping in’ to the fire until around NOONISH after he had checked in at the ICP and was assigned to be DIVZ.

            However…

            Todd Abel testified that BOTH Rance Marquez AND Cougan Carothers CHECKED IN up at the ICP… AT THE SAME TIME… and THAT is why he ‘put them together’.

            So regardless of what times are on Cougan Carothers Resource Order… the OPS1 Supervisor testified that he and Marquez ‘checked in’ AT THE SAME TIME that day ( later in the morning ).

            From Todd Abel’s ADOSH testimony…

            Q1 = Dave Larsen, ADOSH /WFA investigator ( Rest in Peace )
            A = Field OPS1 Todd Abel…
            ——————————————————————-
            641 A: So when, uh – when we were over at the school after the big briefing with all the resources, um, we still had more people checking in. And one of the guys that checked in was a – a Division supervisor, uh, by the name of Rance Marquez.

            Q1: Okay.

            A: Um, I asked Rance – actually two people checked in at the same time, Rance Marquez qualified Division sup and then, uh, Cougan Carothers who was a strike team leader trainee. I put those two together and my assignment to them, um, was to go out and talk with Eric Marsh who was Division Alpha.

            Q1: Right.

            A: Come up with a logical Division break and then I need you to start scouting and find out what kind of resources you’re gonna need, uh, to try to keep the fire – you know out of Yarnell or whatever you think is appropriate.

            Q1: Okay.

            A: So, um, I sent them out there.
            ——————————————————————-

            Todd Abel testified…

            “…actually TWO people checked in AT THE SAME TIME, Rance Marquez qualified Division sup and then, uh, Cougan Carothers who was a strike team leader trainee. I put those two together.”

            So Todd Abel “paired them up” because they were both just initially ‘checking in’ to the fire AT THE SAME TIME.

            If Cougan Carothers had already been down in Yarnell and somehow out in the Sesame area BEFORE he got this assignment from OPS1 Todd Abel… then that means he had to have been ‘freelancing’ and doing things in the Sesame area BEFORE he had ever ‘checked in’ on the fire up at the ICP.

            So “I hear you” up above that you fundamentally don’t trust any of Rance Marquez’s testimony… but what about this testimony from OPS1 Todd Abel?

            It establishes the same thing Marquez’s testimony does… that there’s really no way Cougan Carothers could have been out there in the Sesame area and been driving that CYFD truck with the camper top that was photographed by Joy in the 10:00 AM to 11:00 AM timeframe.

            Abel’s testimony “backs up” Marquez’s testimony.

              • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

                You asked below “Why does this matter?”

                “What difference does it make whether Gary Cordes was driving the CYFD pickup with the camper top… or not?”

                Well… other than the simple fact that it would be nice to “get this right” once and for all… since those vehicles show up in any number of photos in the evidence record… this thread actually ties back to something you posted.

                It’s a simple ‘nuts and bolts’ question ( for me, anyway ).

                You thanked me for posting the YouTube video of the Anna Marie Lechner photo… but you also said ( with assurance )…

                “That’s not Gary Cordes’ truck. It’s Cougan Carothers’ truck”.

                So the simple ‘nuts and bolts’ issue ( for me ) is whether I need to take the time on this end and change all the annotations that were added to that video documenting the new ‘Anna Marie Lechner’ photo.

                I don’t think I do.

                Hopefully Joy can talk to Anna Marie and get an almost-exact TIME for that photo… and whether it really was either Cordes or Carothers… it will be good to know.

                But I still think the probability that that CYFD truck with the camper top WAS being driven by Gary Cordes that day are high enough that I don’t need to jump all over changing any of the annotations in the video.

                I think we should keep working this one.

                I think it matters.

                I think there IS enough evidence ‘laying on the table’ to put this one to bed once and for all… WITHOUT any testimony from Cougan Carothers.

                Joy Collura has already CONFIRMED ( down below ) that those two photos she took of that CYFD truck WITH the camper installed were definitely taken BEFORE the NOON hour. She puts it in the 10:18 to 11:00 AM timeframe, the same timeframe as applying that ‘4 hour offset’ to the timestamps in the photos themselves.

                Both Rance Marquez’s testimony AND OPS1 Todd Abel’s testimony seem to prove that there really is no way Cougan Carothers could have somehow been out there ‘bombing around’ in ANY vehicle in that same BEFORE-NOON timeframe.

                So it really doesn’t matter whether Cordes was there at the meetup with Marquez and Carothers.

                If there was no way Carothers could have been out there prior to that ‘meeting’… then that CYFD pickup with the camper top MUST have been the one being driven by Gary Cordes that day.

                “When you have eliminated the impossible… whatever is left ( however improbable ) must be the truth”.

                I think we’re close to that on this one, particular piece of the ‘puzzle’.

                • Marti Reed says

                  PS. Does it matter, that, if you are correct, Gary Cordes was just sitting there on the side of 89, watching the fire, when he says he was evacuating people from that neighborhood just northeast of Shrine Road?

                  • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

                    Marti Reed says
                    Reply to Marti Reed post on
                    October 13, 2015 at 6:15 am

                    >> Marti said…
                    >>
                    >> PS. Does it matter, that, if you are
                    >> correct, Gary Cordes was just sitting
                    >> there on the side of 89, watching the fire,
                    >> when he says he was evacuating people
                    >> from that neighborhood just northeast
                    >> of Shrine Road?

                    Yep. Sure does.

                    It means there *might* be just one more thing that is a little ‘wonky’ with SPGS1 Cary Cordes’ testimony to investigators.

                    However… if we accept ( for just a moment, anyway ) that Gary Cordes WAS driving that CYFD pickup WITH the camper top… then both of the following things would appear to be true…

                    At 4:16 PM… he was still sitting way up there at that ‘observation’ point north of Yarnell, at that concrete driveway on the WEST side of Highway 89.

                    At 4:45 PM ( confirmed now by Anna Marie Lechner herself? ) Anna Marie Lechner photographed him just 1 block south of where Shrine Road meets Highway 89, heading SOUTH and ( apparently ) straight for the Ranch House Restaurant ( where that same vehicle would then appear in the Russ Reason video circa 4:50 – 5:00 PM ).

                    So that leaves about 29 minutes ( call it a half-hour ) when we still can’t be sure WHERE he was.

                    If he left that ‘observation point’ up there north of Yarnell right after that video ended… then I suppose he DID have time in that half-hour to pull into the Norton Way area and be shouting out the window of the truck for people to evacuate.

                    If he didn’t leave there right after that video… I would say it becomes doubtful he had the time to do those other things he told investigators he did in the Norton Way area.

                    PS: If we are also accepting ( just for a moment, anyway? ) that Cordes WAS driving the ‘camper top’ puppy… then I believe that is Cordes seen in the Russ Reason video standing near that same vehicle and near the porch of the Ranch Restaurant in his WHITE Helment, holding his radio… and just sort of STARING off to the WEST towards what we now know was the ‘deployment site’ area.

                    If Anna Marie Lechner really did capture him heading south on 89 at 4:45 PM… and that really is him standing near the same vehicle in the Russ Reason video… then that means he had basically just arrived there and this ‘staring out towards the deployment’ site was one of the first things he did when he got there.

                    Cordes says Captain Reyes is the one who told him Granite Mountain had actually deployed… and Cordes’ first reaction was “BULLSHIT… they are in the bomb-proof safety zone and they had plenty of time to get there”.

                    But Cordes has still never said exactly WHEN Captain Reyes ( of Engine 59 ) told him that.

                    If we accept the ‘timing’ above… then it appears that happened just moments before the Russ Reason video began.

        • Marti Reed says

          And I also need to say, here, at this point in this conversation, why (other than all this morning stuff) I don’t trust Rance Marquez’ narrative in general.

          My mistrust, (beyond his not-so-accurate-in-my-humble-opinion-regarding-the-morning-narrative) also is compounded by the fact that his narrative of what happened that afternoon seriously doesn’t correspond to the visual evidence. I wrestled with that mightily for quite some time.

          This is what Rance said in his ADOSH Interview”

          “Q3: Okay. And so when you go ahead and describe then what the – what the rest of
          1404 your uh, rest of your day was?
          1405

          1406 A: Uh, after the fire got um, was no longer a threat to the structures, we organized a
          1407 little bit of mop up and um, I heard that and then right after that – right after the
          1408 fire front passed those houses and the smoke kind of just subsided a little bit, um,
          1409 I heard air – air to ground, which I’m at the time, I was told it was Lead 1-1, um,
          1410 asking someone on the ground if they could see the helicopter and then um, a little
          1411 bit later, I heard them ask if they could hear the helicopter which that got me uh, I
          1412 knew something was not right exactly. Didn’t know what and then um, there was
          1413 a loud – someone yelled into the radio and uh, and then who- and the Air Attack
          1414 responded by whoever was yelling into the radio to please stop and uh, then he
          1415 just kept calling for Granite Mountain. There was never a response after that.”

          That is not what happened, even remotely.

          And there’s more of that but I’m not gonna copy and paste all of it, but it’s equally not accurate, according to the visual evidence.

          Rance Marquez passed in front of the Air2Air camera going east at 3:51 PM.

          At 4:15 PM his truck is in the Jake Guadiana video.

          He is seen driving up to the Shrine area and then turning around in Aaron’s video (I can’t get the time on that because I can’t access the video because I haven’t schlepped my hard drives around the corner). But we know, generally speaking, when that was.

          How much else did he forget or disremember? And why?

          So that’s, honestly, why I don’t trust Rance’s narrative as a be all and end all framework for accurately understanding what was actually going on.

          • Marti Reed says

            And another thing.

            From what I remember from way back when, one thing I remember was somebody (Robert the Second?) saying that Cougan Carothers very definitely was not even remotely interested in being interviewed by ADOSH. That interview didn’t just randomly not happen.

            In my mind there is just something not right in all of this. And I don’t know what it is.

            And PS. For the reasons I wrote below, I’m not convinced that Gary Cordes is just sitting there on the side of 89 watching the fire in that video.

            So you, WTKTT, may be right. But I’m not convinced.

            That’s why I said that absent a testimony from Cougan Carothers, I don’t think it’s possible to accurately evaluate all of this.

            • Marti Reed says

              And, as I wrote downstream, Marquez’ truck and that camper-covered truck are parked together on July 1.

              Why?

              When Gary Cordes was interviewed by ADOSH, he couldn’t even remember Rance Marquez’ name.

              • Marti Reed says

                And, to be perfectly honest, I don’t even, all things considered, understand why, all of a sudden, right now, a year and a half after I finally basically gave up on trying to identify all these vehicles because it was pretty clear that nobody else really gave a darn and everybody else had moved on to more important things………

                Why does it matter now?

                I mean, really, what difference does it make in the general scheme of things?

                Somebody please riddle me this.

                • Marti Reed says

                  I mean, really, what difference does it make which truck Gary Cordes was driving and which truck was Cougan Carothers driving?

                • Marti Reed says

                  OK. I have to confess.

                  At one point in time, a year and a half ago, this mattered to me a lot because the visual record didn’t even remotely sync with Rance Marquez’ narrative, and that bothered me a whole lot.

                  I wondered, “What is he hiding and why??????”

                  And is Cougan Carothers hiding something? And why??

                  Why would Rance’s narrative not match the visual record and why would Cougan have obstructed the ADOSH investigation?

                  I was really bothered by that. Then.

                  But nobody else was so, since I was sick of trying to figure out all these vehicles while everybody else was more interested in other things, I finally said to myself “Screw it” and put it all to bed on my computer.

                  If you’re actually really interested in vehicles, the Incident Management Team truck is a real piece of cake.

                  And if you’re really interested in people, that guy in the red helmet in the Ranch House Restaurant (who I used to think was Tony Sciacca, all things considered) who is pacing and waiting and the instant Darell Willis pulls up goes directly to talk to him for a bit and then keeps pacing the parking lot — I’d REALLY like to know who he is.

                  (Could that be Dean Steward??)

                  But would anybody else want to know? Is this important? Is this not important? Who decides what (that is still not resolved) is important or not important?

                  Meanwhile………..WHO CARES?????????

    • Norb Szczurek says

      WTKTT,

      In looking through Joy’s photos I noticed something that I am wondering if you have seen, or maybe its my old eyes playing tricks on me. Photo 356 of 366 or JPG 100_0324 appears to have a dozer in the lower right of the photo working toward the structure – have you already seen this? Or is it just a big yellowish colored rock?

      • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

        I know the photo you are referring to ( 100_324.JPG ).

        That is a photo that Joy took from the passenger side of the vehicle she was traveling in as she was evacuating from Yarnell down the south part of Highway 89.

        The ‘view’ is actually to the northwest ( from the southeast )… and the ‘orange glow’ over the horizon represents the fire actually burning out in the box canyon and moving into the western parts of Glen Ilah.

        As for what you are seeing in the lower right of the photo ( right near that structure )… I don’t think that’s a dozer.

        The ‘light’ that seems to be on there seems more like it’s on the front of the structure itself ( and not a dozer cage light or headlight ).

        There is another similar ‘point of light’ off on the LEFT side of the photo… near that other ( larger ) structure.

        As for why it LOOKS like it might be a dozer ( the yellow object near the structure )… I haven’t a clue.

        Maybe it IS. Seems absurd it would have been there, in that location, just trying to do something for one small house… but as we have learned over the course of this discussion… the minute we think something might have been ‘absurd’… there is evidence to suggest the ‘absurd’ was ruling the day, that day.

        Good eye… and thanks for noticing this.

        KEEP LOOKING!

        • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

          Followup…

          That ‘100_324.JPG’ photo mentioned above is at the BOTTOM of that page showing Joy Collura’s photos.

          It’s the FIRST picture on the LEFT in the THIRD row up from the BOTTOM of that SAIT Dropbox folder containing some of Joy Collura’s photos.

          ALSO…

          ** SATELLITE VIEW ALSO SHOWS ‘YELLOW’ OBJECTS?

          If you go to Google maps and ‘zoom down’ on the south side of Yarnell… where those two houses are located… you will see that they both survived the fire.

          But if you look closely at the ‘house in question’, where those ‘yellow dots’ seem to be seen in the photo… you can STILL see two ‘objects’ there in front of the house that ( even with a top-down satellite view ) that appear to be YELLOW…. and they also appear to be in the same exact relative location in front of that house as seen in Joy Collura’s photograph.

          The exact latitude/longitude for those 2 ‘yellow objects’ sitting out in front of that small structure would be…

          34.207725, -112.755533

          Just cut-and-paste the line above ( including the comma ) into the search bar of ‘Google Maps’ and a map will appear with a ‘balloon marker’ sitting right between these two objects in front of that small structure that seem to be reading as ‘yellow objects’ even from earth orbit.

    • Joy A. Collura says

      REPLY BELOW:

      Actually… this gets very simple.

      Joy… are you reading this?

      You don’t have to remember the EXACT time these two photos were taken… but do you remember whether it was definitely in the MORNING ( as in… before NOON )?

      *****replied by email below because I have not been to I M for a bit…trying to do some projects away from pc…I will be visiting Yarnell 2-7pm than hiking down the Weavers tomorrow back home to Congress. I am looking for someone to help me shave my head and cut off the golden locks and start fresh—I want to thank WWTKTT because I FINALLY got my answers without the State Land Park and in that so grateful to WWTKTT because in link you posted I got to see http://www.azstateparks.com/committees/downloads/Yarnell_Memorial_PowerPoint_04-10-15.pdf

      YEAH! YAY!!! I have waited for detailed information and all I come off is some lady who wants to go to meetings and really I do not even want to be present or engage or participate because I know I am not even welcome there number one (everyone has shown they adore Sonny especially Karen Fann who bought him gifts…as he seem to be left alone throughout this process just me was singled out) but the map in link above should be posted in Yarnell on bulletin boards and I should of got this too because its most detailed and I never ever knew the 320 acres ran that way in that direction—I thought it ran wide imminent domain areas but no people told me after asking alot of different areas—people; just wanted to talk shit about me versus properly sharing this link above. Thank you WWTKTT. Now in seeing THAT purchased 320 acres map…the widows are correct. I took pretty much every hike in the area because I sent the reply map of my hikes to either Paxon or Payne that July 2013 highlighting direction I would be taken—would have to look in files I printed up to which man….even talking to Steve the state land trespassing officer—and it was acceptable to hike the mountaintop—I never was told no and I was never EDUCATED anything different and first I ever heard I was in restricted areas was from flying rumors in Fall 2014 that I was trying to find facts and was getting bullshit versus help but the rumors said that I was hiking folks to the site and that was NOT TRUE and was very offended by it especially WHY JUST ME and not the other hiker EVER MENTIONED when rumors flew…than in the first week of January 2015 I learned the two track was off limits and then confirmed it with Max Masel but today seeing the map in the above link…freaking too many—number would be in the thousands who violated such besides me including the other hiker and MANY reading this page right now…THAT IS WHY IT IS CRUCIAL FOR THEM TO PROPERLY SET BOUNDARIES AND SIGNAGE—I want to publicly apologize for keeping a stance I was innocent yet it was based on what was given to me so in what information I had I felt I was innocent…just so you know…Now, since getting the map in January not a soul can say I have been even in the area except the week of when the men died I was walking towards Helms with Grant Scott McKee introduced him to Bruce and McCrackens and I wanted permission to be in area from a higher up because I was not going to push the part and yet Sonny was more at ease to hike with people but he was not at ease with going with Phil M of GMHS or Mr. McKee because Sonny felt a bit off and has been really as he stated the other day a bit off on the topic ever since…God guiding Mr. McKee to our lives ruined me and Sonny’s knowing another Sonny stated. MY door is always open to Tex Harold Eldon Gilligan (Sonny) yet he has too many times used that week as his “out” to want to continue to know me…Sonny point blank does not want to hike the loved ones or anyone not even me and he has gone forward with his life. I can’t hike anyone but will always be available to help properly assess the YHF. Sonny feels we both have given our ALL and always been available for every person trying to figure out how 19 men died. Our time is done. That is his take. My take is if anyone wants to share their photos locally…anyone who was on the fire and wants to finally speak up and use me as their voice—just know I am not going anywhere. I live in Congress. I have a new job since my trails with Sonny ended. I am helping a few on some projects. I am going over to Yarnell to review some photos and hopefully it will help properly assess the fire and maybe some more new photos with vehicles and firefighters—until the day I pass on my door is open to all— (480) 280-5813 leave me a detailed message and I will get back as soon as I can.
      I have been tormented with such unneeded turmoil during another’s way of thinking…can anyone tell me after all the childhood stuff and teen stuff and young adult stuff and I have my best friend since the 80’s; my husband help carry me through—I am never looking to have a storybook way of life—I just want my hikes and my freedoms and my constitutional rights to walk across this here land of America…I made a vow not to dwell in others’ miseries anymore–I just want my rights and stop the horseshit of restricting my individualism…what I have learned from the YHF—and from my hikes with Sonny. NOBODY is going to make me into their nightmares of a vision…In closing, the YHF….
      ——-In truth, the real nature of things lies behind a veil of MYSTERY—-the root causes of events are hidden from our sight.—–

      email between wwtktt and me:
      Mon, Oct 12, 2015 at 11:16 AM

      I was asking you if you happen to remember if these photos were taken in the MORNING
      ( as in, sometime before NOON ).
      *****absolutely took them in morning and way before noon…more like 10:18-11am mark

      You do NOT have to remember the EXACT time.
      *****Sonny had me take vehicle photos and I can tell you it was not at 10:28-10:43am because I was on phone with people so more like 10:18-10:28 or 10;43-11am

  33. WantsToKnowTheTruth says

    **
    ** CAMPERTOP, CAMPERTOP… WHOSE GOT THE CAMPERTOP?

    >> Reply to October 10, 2015 at 3:16 pm by Marti Reed
    >>
    >> Marti said…
    >>
    >> Thanks for that, WTKTT, but that’s not Gary’s truck. That’s Cougan’s.
    >>
    >> Gary’s truck is the bigger open-bed truck.
    >> Cougan’s is the smaller covered-bed truck.

    I actually wouldn’t say the CYFD pickup WITHOUT the camper top is the ‘bigger’ one, ( size-wise ) but that is neither here nor there… nor is it the most obvious ‘difference’.

    The obvious difference between these two CYFD Red-with-white-stripes command vehicles is that one of them has a camper top… and the other one does not ( but does have a standard silver toolbox installed in the bed ).

    So let’s get back to basics for a moment and try to do a final ‘nail down’ on whether the evidence proves, without any doubt, WHO was driving that CYFD pickup with the camper top ( Cordes or Caruthers )… and WHO was driving the other one WITHOUT the camper top.

    I *thought* we had this nailed down a long time ago… but here we are again… so let’s try to ‘put this one to bed’ once and for all.

    I honestly think you have it backwards, and the opposite of what I *thought* we had already proved sometime way back when.

    And here is just one reason why…

    Blue Ridge Hotshot Papich took photos of that ‘meeting’ that took place circa NOON out in the Sesame area when DIVSZ Rance Marquez and his assigned assistant that day ( Cougan Caruthers ) first showed up out there to assess the situation.

    In Papich’s photo named IMG_3952… the left side of the photo shows the vehicles they ( Marquez and and Caruthers ) used to get out there.

    The photo shows the Red-with-white-stripes CYFD pickup WITHOUT the camper top sitting there with its door open… just 20 feet to the left of where Marquez and Caruthers were having that meeting.

    I don’t think Gary Cordes was ever even AT that meeting, at that time, so that would seem to be proof-positive that Cougan Caruthers was the one driving the CYFD pickup WITHOUT the camper top that day.

    In his ADOSH interview… Rance Marquez actually goes into some pretty fine detail about this intial scouting mission he was doing out there. He related to ADOSH that at one point he ( and Caruthers ) had gone all the way out to where Ball and the Dozer were working… and met with them… and then he says they came back to the ‘clearing’ where the Blue Ridge Trucks were parked ( Papich’s photos ) and then actually met with Frisby and Brown there after they had ‘come down’ from their face-to-face with Marsh and Steed…

    …but at NO time does Marquez mention Gary Cordes as having been out there in that timeframe or one of the ones he ‘met with’ out there.

    If I have gone totally brain dead on this… and Gary Cordes really WAS present at that meeting out there at that time being captured in the Papich photos… then which one of the four FFs seen in the photo is Cordes?

    I don’t see him ( Cordes ) standing there.

    ** RANCE MARQUEZ’S ADOSH INTERVIEW SAYS CORDES WAS NOT AT THAT MEETING

    Actually… I just found that part in Rance Marquez’s ADOSH interview where I thought he had CONFIRMED that Gary Cordes did NOT attend that meeting out there… and so whichever CYFD pickup was ‘seen’ out there MUST have been the one Cougan Caruthers was driving that day.

    Marquez told ADOSH that as he and Cougan Caruthers were headed out there… they met with Cordes at what Marquez described as a ‘grocery store / gas station’ ( The mini-mart? ) and Cordes just CONSULTED with them about how to get out to the Sesame area… but Cordes did NOT end up going out there with them.

    Marquez said that at the time he and Cougan met with Cordes to get ‘directions’ out to the Sesame area, Cordes was (quote) “busy organizing incoming crews and engines”.

    Marquez said Cordes just “gave them the directions” and then he and Cougan Caruthers proceeded out there WITHOUT Gary Cordes.

    Here is exactly what Rance Marquez told ADOSH…

    ———————————————————————————————-
    266 Gary Cordes was structure group – was the other – was the structure group in
    267 Yarnell. Now I got uh, in – tied in with him right there at the grocery store and
    268 uh, and gas/gas station etcetera and um, he kind of got me s- got myself and
    269 Cougan um, dialed in as to where the road access was and that kind of stuff back
    270 into the area where Eric and – where Eric was working – well, where Granite
    271 Mountain and um, also Blue Ridge…
    272
    273 Q3: Right.
    274
    275 A: …was in – were in.
    276
    277 Q3: Well when you were at…
    278
    279 A: And the dozer.


    377 A: They had two structure groups, so they were busily getting – getting prepared
    378 for that. Um, talking with Gary my short time, he – he was busy organizing
    379 incoming crews and engines as well. Was trying to get them figured out on where
    380 – where their priorities were. So again, it was a – an emergency – or an emerging
    381 incident.
    382
    383 Q3: Okay. So you – you dro- drove from ICP down to Yarnell did you and did I get
    384 that right?
    385
    386 A: Yes.
    387
    388 Q3: And you tied in with Cordes?
    389
    390 A: I did.
    391
    392 Q3: Ok, did he – did he uh, did he talk to you at all about uh, safety zones and pre-
    393 identified safety zones?
    394
    395 A: He did not and I don’t think he had – well, I don’t know what – what he thought,
    396 but he gave me the – the directions because even though the signs say – well the
    397 map said one thing. A lot of the homeowners had put up their own homemade
    398 road signs. Was kind of comical because he said the – the primary way in was
    399 Sesame Street so I had to find my way to Sesame Street, but it wasn’t on any –
    400 it’s not any other map. It was so – just its…
    401
    402 Q3: Right.
    403
    404 A: …it was just a handmade sign that somebody had put on there.
    405
    406 Q3: All right. So you saw – you – you met with uh, Cordes in person?
    407
    408 A: I did.
    409
    410 Q3: Okay. Did – then uh, so uh, how did you contact Marsh? Did you go out and talk
    411 to him?
    412
    413 A: Mark or Marsh?
    414
    415 Q1: Marsh.
    416
    417 Q3: Marsh. Excuse me.
    418
    419 A: Uh, yeah.
    420
    421 Q3: Division Alpha.
    422
    423 A: Division Alpha. Yes. I – I drove out to the fire area um, through Sesame Street,
    424 through the – through the – through Yarnell, hit the uh, the wildland area and on
    425 the way out, actually drove by uh, buggies from – from Blue Ridge. There was
    426 uh, commo in there’s kind of weird cause it’s – I – I don’t know if the granite eats
    427 it or what, but sometimes you line of sight stuff, you think you be able to get it
    428 and other times, you can’t and it’s just a – um, I kind of experienced the same
    429 stuff on the Doce Fire where commo didn’t seem to be exactly great and I – and I
    430 don’t know why. It wasn’t cause we couldn’t see them. I could actually see
    431 Granite Mountain working uh, up on the hill and uh, anyway, I finally made
    432 contact with – with Eric and – and we chatted a bit.
    ——————————————————————————————–

    So that’s the ‘story’ according to Rance Marquez himself.

    He and Cougan Caruthers just met with SPGS1 Gary Cordes while they were headed down to Yarnell ( at the mini-mart? ) and all Cordes did was give them ‘directions’ on how to get out to the Sesame area once they got down to Yarnell.

    But Gary Cordes did NOT go ‘with them’.

    So that means the CYFD pickup WITHOUT the camper top photographed by Papich out there for that ‘meeting’ in the Sesame area MUST have been the vehicle Cougan Caruthers was driving. At least at THAT time ( 12:00 – 12:30 PM ), anyway.

    The OTHER piece of evidence that I thought we had already gone over that established Gary Cordes driving the pickup WITH the camper top was that photo that Joy Collura took that morning, around the time the Blue Ridge vehicles were first ‘arriving’ out in the Sesame area.

    One of Joy’s photos taken in that same timeframe ( 10:30 AM ish ) shows that CYFD pickup WITH the camper top out there in the Sesame area… with it’s driver door open and what looks for all the world like Gary Cordes standing in front of it.

    I had thought we had established that this was actually Joy capturing what could have been the ‘hand off’ moment when Cordes was turning control of the dozer over to BR Hotshot Cory Ball.

    Even if that wasn’t that exact moment… the TIME for this photo was in the MORNING, when Gary Cordes was KNOWN to have been out in that area and a good 2 HOURS before Rance Marquez and Cougan Caruthers would ever show up out there in the 12:00 – 12:30 PM timeframe.

    So there is additional proof ( we thought? ) that Gary Cordes was definitely driving that CYFD pickup that DID have the ‘camper top’ on it.

    • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

      Followup…

      And just to ( hopefully ) speed this up to some kind of conclusion… I think I can anticipate some of the “Well… what about this?” comebacks.

      Let me try to pre-comment on those just for the sake of time.

      ** What about the Jake Guadiana video ?

      >> On October 10, 2015 at 3:31 pm, Marti Reed said…
      >>
      >> This Jake Guadiana video shows both Lance and Cougan with their trucks
      >> standing by the roadside watching the fire:
      >>
      >> USB YARNELL HILL 020.avi

      https://www.dropbox.com/sh/02ue6bnjp6nazkm/AABtgGDgNOKkhnX1Q4E6v4q0a/Photos%20and%20Video/AZFS%20photos%20videos/USB%20YARNELL%20HILL%20020.avi?dl=0

      Look carefully at the drivers side window of the CYFD pickup WITH the camper top that is seen in this video.

      If that is Cougan Caruthers standing OUTSIDE the CYFD pickup WITH the camper back ( and it very will might be )… then whose left elbow ( wearing a Nomex shirt ) is that seen sticking out of the driver’s side of the CYFD pickup-with-campertop itself?

      At the +11 second mark, as the camera was ZOOMING near the driver’s window of that CYFD pickup WITH the camper top is the best view of what appears to be someone with a Nomex shirt on sitting in the driver’s seat with their elbow leaning on the window sill.

      I would believe that the FF with the ‘X’ sweat marks on the back of his shirt is Cougan Caruthers… but there really does appear to be another FF already sitting in the driver’s seat of the CYFD pickup in the same video.

      That means it would have been Gary Cordes.

      I don’t know where the other CYFD pickup WITHOUT the camper top might have been or WHY it isn’t also showing up in the same video… but I would say that if that really is Cougan Caruthers standing OUTSIDE that vehicle… and there really was another FF sitting in the drivers’s seat of that CYFD pickup WITH the camper top… then that is must more proof that Gary Cordes really was driving the one WITH the camper top… and Cougan Caruthers was driving the one WITHOUT the camper top.

      By the way… I know this all goes back to the original WORLDNEWS ‘photo in question’ that Gary Olson was asking about… and whether or not any of THOSE FFs could have been the ones talking to Marsh circa 4:13 PM… so it’s interesting to note that if we can trust the TIMESTAMPS on this Jake Guadiana video ( 4:16 PM )… then right there in this photo are at least FOUR FFs who COULD have been the ones having those 4:13 to 4:18 PM radio conversations with Eric Marsh… and they might have been doing it from RIGHT THERE at one of those three concrete driveways on the west side of Hwy 89 there north of the town of Yarnell.

      Here is the actual FULL TRANSCRIPT of that Jake Guadiana video as was posted back in Chapter XI ( Chapter 11 ) of this ongoing discussion…

      ——————————————————————————————
      File Name: USB YARNELL HILL 020.avi
      File Size: 17 MB
      File Type: AVI
      Date/Time Original: 2011:03:07 04:16:46
      Software: CanonMVI06
      Duration: 15.31 s

      Actual Date/Time: Sunday, June 30, 2013 @ 4:16:46 PM

      NOTE: This is the video taken looking west from Highway 89 just north of Yarnell proper with what appears to be Rance Marquez, Cougan Caruthers and Tony Sciacca conferring in front of the white cattle fence across the road.

      +0:00
      (Foreground: Unknown 1): That one can certainly wait.

      +0:01
      (Background: Unknown 2: Sounds like OPS1 Todd Abel ): ( To John Burfiend
      in B33 ) He said… both parties should be waitin’ ( in the attack area? ) ( to call ? ).

      +0:04
      (Foreground: Unknown 3): ( Laughing )

      +0:05
      (B33 – John Burfiend): Okay… soooo… right up against the pulse there… that’s where
      we’re gonna ( be droppin’ )?

      +0:07
      (Foreground: Unknown 1 ): What are you concerned about?

      +0:08
      (Foreground: Unknown 3 ): Nuthin’. Catching sumthin?

      +0:10
      (Foreground: Unknown 1 ): ( Laughing )
      (Foreground: Unknown 3 ): ( Also laughing )

      +0:11
      (Background: Unknown 2: Sounds like OPS1 Todd Abel ): That’s when I’m clearin’ fire
      around that structure… and they’re gonna get in the ( road ) ( VIDEO ENDS AND
      CUTS OFF THE NEXT WORD ).

      +0:15.31 – END OF VIDEO
      ———————————————————————————

      • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

        Followup 2…

        ** What about the Swartz photo?

        Again… in the interests of just pre-commenting on all possible ‘comebacks’… let me just point out that I believe the ‘Swartz’ photo referenced below was taken just MINUTES before or after the WORLDNEWS ‘photo in question’ posted by Gary Olson.

        That CYFD pickup WITHOUT the camper top ( and with the standard silver toolbox installed at the top of the bed ) is in the EXACT SAME SPOT in BOTH the ‘Swartz’ photo and the WORLDNEWS ‘photo in question’.

        Also… in BOTH photos… almost the exact same group of FFs can be seen ‘assembled’ there out on the edge of the RHR parking lot in the exact same place.

        In particular… that FF with the WHITE helmet, the chest harness with BK radio, and the ‘faded’ Nomex shirt. He’s easily identified from a distance ( in the Swartz photo ) because his Nomex shirt was either ‘off brand’ or ‘very faded’ and has almost a ‘light lemon yellow’ color to it… as compared to all the other yellow Nomex shirts around him.

        He’s also wearing KHAKIS… which easily identifies him from a distance.

        There’s no question that that is the same FF seen in BOTH the Swartz photo and the WORLDNEWS ‘photo in question’… and he’s seen standing in almost the exact same place for both photos.

        That means the two photos were taken very close together.

        As a matter of fact… the Swartz photo shows us who might have actually TAKEN the WORLDNEWS ‘photo in question’.

        Look at the right side of the Swartz photo… at the FF with the RED Helmet and the white towel/cloth wrapped around his face.

        He is obviously already ‘shooting photos’ in that timeframe with a smartphone that he is holding out in front of his face.

        This same FF with the red helmet could have been the one who then took the other WORLDNEWS ‘photo in question’ either just before or just after Swartz took HIS photo of him already ‘taking pictures’ there.

        So the bottom line here is that the CYFD pickup WITHOUT the campertop that is seen in BOTH the ‘Swartz’ and the WORLDNEWS ‘photo in question’ is actually more likely the one that Cougan Caruthers was driving that day.

        The FF with the black helment on the left side of the WORLDNEWS ‘photo in question’ might very well be Cougan Caruthers. Certainly when he knew he was being assigned to the medical team he would have ‘geared up’ and replaced his ball cap with a (black?) helmet.

        So there is every chance one of those FF’s there is Caruthers… but Gary Cordes is nowhere to be seen in either of these photos.

        By the way… if the timestamp of 18:43 ( 6:43 PM ) being displayed on the Swartz photo itself can be trusted.. then I believe that also puts a close time onto the WORLDNEWS ‘photo in question’ itself.

        6:43 PM sounds/looks about right for BOTH of these photos.

        It wasn’t *quite* dark yet ( but getting there )… and 6:43 PM would have been more than enough time for the ‘spot fires’ seen in the background of the WORLDNEWS ‘photo in question’ to have been burning there down Highway 89 and on the EAST side of Glen Ilah.

        • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

          Actually.. there really is little doubt that that IS Cougan Carothers seen in the black helmet on the left edge of that WORLDNEWS ‘photo in question’ that Gary Olson posted a link to.

          There is a CLEAR picture of Cougan Carothers on the Central Yavapai ‘Senior Staff’ web page… which is here…

          http://www.centralyavapaifire.org/index.cfm?section=15&pagenum=232

          If you compare that photo of Carothers with the FF in the ‘photo in question’ and just imagine him not smiling… squinting a little… and with a ‘helmet’ on… there’s not much reason to doubt that’s him.

          So that just confirms what I said above.

          That probably IS Cougan Carothers in that ‘photo in question’ and that just makes it more apparent that that CYFD pickup WITHOUT the campertop also seen in the same photo(s) is the one that HE was driving that day…

          …and Gary Cordes really was driving the CYFD pickup WITH the campertop.

        • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

          >> WTKTT wrote…
          >>
          >> Also… in BOTH photos… almost the exact same group of FFs
          >> can be seen ‘assembled’ there out on the edge of the RHR
          >> parking lot in the exact same place.
          >>
          >> In particular… that FF with the WHITE helmet, the chest harness
          >> with BK radio, and the ‘faded’ Nomex shirt. He’s easily identified
          >> from a distance ( in the Swartz photo ) because his Nomex shirt
          >> was either ‘off brand’ or ‘very faded’ and has almost a ‘light
          >> lemon yellow’ color to it… as compared to all the other
          >> yellow Nomex shirts around him.
          >>
          >> He’s also wearing KHAKIS… which easily identifies him from
          >> a distance.

          Speaking of ‘easily identifiable light-lemon-yellow shirt and khakis’…

          I think it’s pretty safe to say that not only is that FF with the black helmet in the WORLDNEWS ‘photo in question’ Cougan Carothers… the FF right next to him ( facing the camera ) with that light-lemon-yellow shirt, khakis, white helmet and chest harness is, without a doubt, Rance Marquez.

          In the Blue Ridge Hotshot Papich photos taken of that meeting that Rance Marquez and Cougan Carothers had earlier in the day out in the Sesame area… there is that same ‘easily identifiable’ light-lemon-yellow shirt and khakis.

          He is standing 3rd from the left in that group of 4 FFs seen ‘meeting’ there at the top of the Sesame area.

          That has to be Rance Marquez… so the odds that is also Rance Marquez second from the left in that WORLDNEWS ‘photo in question’ are high enough ( I think ) to call it a done deal. It’s him.

      • Marti Reed says

        I’m not feeling as “done” as you are with this. And I’m just waking up after something of a rough night. But one of the reasons I’m not feeling as “done” as you are is that I never was able to be “done” with it, as hard as I tried. I really hated (and still do) working on this endless rabbit (at least it was a rabbit hole for me) that I worked on for endless amounts of time until I just finally got sick of doing it and moved on to where everybody else was at.

        I guess I missed where we talked about this and resolved it way back when. Because I resolved it all quite differently then. But it was always fraught with headaches for me and it still is. (There are still headaches in the collection that I haven’t even mentioned).

        But you may be right. Which may resolve some of the issues I walked away from this still seeing. And there are some other issues in this that I haven’t even mentioned. But I didn’t think anybody was all that interested, so I walked away from this mess and let it be a year and a half ago.

        Who do you think the person on the far left of the group lined up in Papich’s photo is? I went through a LOT of comparing photos of Gary Cordes with that person and publicly determined that that person on the end was Gary Cordes, regardless of Marquez narrative (which has a NUMBER of holes in it). The discrepancy between Marquez’ narrative and this photo (among a number of OTHER discrepancies) has left me totally scratching my head, and not even remotely trusting Marquz’ narrative.

        If you look at that photo again, you will see that that lower-slung truck with the camper shell is sitting right behind the big truck without the camper shell, sandwiched right between the big truck and the Granite Mountain Hotshots buggy.

        A number of times I called out that photo that was taken by Joy, and asked, “WTF is Cougan Carothers doing up there in that area before he should have been?????”

        Nobody responded, “Hey, Marti, that’s not Cougan’s truck, that’s Gary’s truck!!!!!!” That might have shifted my thinking a LOT earlier………………..maybe.

        So you may be right that I have the trucks switched. I hadn’t seen that nomex elbow in the video.

        So here’s another riddle-me-this. I don’t think you are right on your ID of Rance Marquez in those later photos. But who knows??

        In the Papich photo, one of the two guys on the right has khaki colored pants and the other has dark green pants. I happen to think the one in the khaki pants is Cougan Carothers and the one in the dark green pants is Rance Marquez.

        That would mean you are incorrect in your Rance ID.

        I happen to think that, in the Tom Story photos, and have said so periodically, that Rance Marquez is in that huddle over the IMT truck hood (a truck which carries another set of headaches), looking exactly like he does in the Papich photo.

        Here’s the problem. In the video (and thanks finally for the timestamp — something I asked for repeatedly way back when because I desperately needed it, and didn’t want to get the software because I really really wanted to quit doing this, but I didn’t get any response way back when, and, yeah, I had missed that nomex elbow completely)………

        There is nobody in the video wearing dark green pants. So that’s been another migraine headache for me all along. That might mean that Rance isn’t even in that video. Who knows???????

        I have all along thought that Gary Cordes was, by around 4:15 PM, busily overseeing that evacuation of that subdivision northeast of Shrine Road. Since I still don’t have my hard-drives, and, thus access to all my files, can somebody check Gary’s interview and notes and confirm to me that he wasn’t?

        Maybe he did just sit there for another 25 minutes at that great place to watch the fire after Paul Musser left and headed to Yarnell to do who knows what.

        But I’m currently not conviced.

        Another big problem in figuring out the timing of this all is that the Air2Air video only shows Rance crossing the camera, not Cougan, although they most likely did it about the same time, all things considered. Cougan must have crossed during the break in the video before Rance crossed it. Since I don’t have my files (including my extensive vehicle timelines), I can’t calculate when Rance crossed it, but it was at 0:03:27,15 on the 20130630_1626_EP.MOV video.

        There’s another photo of Rance’s truck and the camper-covered truck being all buddy-buddy (as were Rance and Cougan all through this thing), and that’s an overhead photo, taken at 10:27 AM on July 1. Actually, there a number of vehicles I was trying to identify in that photo. It is IMG_0605.JPG in the Miscellaneous Photos folder inside the ASFD Photos folder inside the Photos and Video Folder inside the ADOSH Yarnell Hill Investigation Parent Folder.

        Here’s the link to the photo: https://www.dropbox.com/sh/20inrene9tcx74a/AAB0NBgR8c6fmlKi5wgpccmqa/ADOSH%20Yarnell%20Hill%20Investigation/Photos%20and%20Video/ASFD%20Photos/Miscellaneous%20Photos/IMG_0605.JPG?dl=0

        So, I guess I’m saying that, from my point of view, and my experience in this campfire circle, it isn’t as simple, and hasn’t been as simple, as you are making it seem.

        And I’m still not completely convinced of all that you are saying. For the reasons I’ve written.

        But some of it may be correct.

  34. Marti Reed says

    I apologize for the weirdness of the threads down below regarding the photos and the attempts to identify the people in them.

    But sometimes that’s just how conversations here regarding things just go.

    This is always an evolving work in progress.

    Namaste.

    • Robert the Second says

      Marti,

      Thanks for all the photo work you did below. It helped me. However, I can’t help you with identifying Rance Marquez. I don’t know if that is him in the last link you provided below.

      • Marti Reed says

        Thanks, Robert the Second. It’s fine. Especially now that I realized the person in the black helmet we were discussing wasn’t Rance, but Cougan.

    • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

      **
      ** PHOTO SHOWING GARY CORDES DRIVING DOWN HIGHWAY 89
      ** TOWARDS THE RANCH HOUSE RESTAURANT

      Reply to Marti Reed post October 10, 2015 at 12:54 am

      >> Marti said…
      >>
      >> I apologize for the weirdness of the threads down below regarding the
      >> photos and the attempts to identify the people in them.
      >>
      >> But sometimes that’s just how conversations here regarding things just go.

      Absolutely.

      The latest “who was where, when” roundup was actually just kicked off by Gary Olson wondering if anyone in that post-deployment photo taken at the Ranch House Restaurant might have been the one who made that ‘status check’ callout to Granite Mountain circa 4:13 PM.

      The answer is still just ‘perhaps’.

      These multiple cannot-be-denied radio captures of various people communicating directly with DIVSA Eric Marsh and Granite Mountain during the same timeframe when Mike Dudley and Jim Karels and the SAIT decided to say they could not ‘verify’ that anyone was doing any such thing aren’t going away… and every time we do another ’roundup’ we actually get close to figuring out WHO some of those ‘communicators’ might be.

      According to the radio captures… we are actually still talking about probably at least THREE DIFFERENT PERSONS having these ‘direct communications’ with Marsh and GM during the time when (supposedly) no one was doing that.

      But more about that in a minute.

      As long as we are still doing another “who was where, when” roundup… I wanted to be sure you didn’t miss one of those photos that Joy Collura found and distributed ( with full permission of the people who took the photos ) back in July.

      ONE of those photos, taken by Anna Marie Lechner, captures the moment when Gary Cordes when coming down Highway 89 from the Norton Way area and towards the Ranch House Restaurant.

      There was no definite timestamp in the EXIF data for this photo… but based on a glimpse of the fire ( in the background of the photo ) actually coming INTO the Norton way area… the TIME appears to have been right around 4:45 PM.

      Gary Cordes’ vehicle would then be seen in the Russ Reason video taken circa 4:50 PM… so that means this new photo proves that Cordes had NOT been at the RHR for any length of time before the Russ Reason video. He, apparently, has just arrived there.

      That calls a few parts of Gary Cordes’ testimony to ADOSH into question… but more about that later.

      I just wanted to be sure you had seen this Anna Marie Lechner photo.

      I turned it into a new YouTube video… with annotations.

      That YouTube video is HERE…

      Video Title: Gary-Cordes-on-Highway-89
      http://youtu.be/D2NdGmRqS_U

      Here’s the 411 on this Anna Marie Lechner photo…

      At approximately 4:45 PM on June 30, 2013… Anna Marie Lechner was sitting in the driver’s seat of her car parked in a store lot on the EAST side of Highway 89, just 1 block SOUTH of where Shrine Road meets Highway 89.

      She took 3 different photos ( looking NORTH ) while sitting in her car.

      The THIRD photo captures Gary Cordes’ CYFD command vehicle passing by her, heading SOUTH on HIghway 89.

      There is FIRE seen in the background of the photo and a plot of that location against Google Earth indicates the fire shown in the photo was near the ‘Norton Way’ area… where Gary Cordes had been ( according to his ADOSH testimony ) making sure people were evacuating, just prior to heading down to the Ranch House Restaurant.

      Gary Cordes told ADOSH he did NOT hear the actual 4:39 – 4:43 PM MAYDAY and subsequent deployment radio traffic coming over the Air-To-Ground channel.

      According to Cordes… he had lost the ability to TRANSMIT over the Air-To-Ground channel prior to the deployment because the switch on his BK portable took a dump. He switched to his backup Motorola units which ( he said ) didn’t have the Air-To-Ground channel programmed in and he was somehow either unable to change the programming, add a channel, or just didn’t know how to… or something like that.

      Regardless… Cordes told ADOSH he wasn’t even AWARE there had been a deployment until after he arrived at the Ranch House Restaurant and was told about it by Engine Captain Reyes.

      Cordes also told ADOSH his initial reaction to the news from Reyes was…

      “BULLSHIT! They had plenty of time to get there, and they were already
      in their bomb proof safety zone”.

      Reyes then (apparently) told Cordes “No… they got cut off”.

      Actually… here is exactly what Gary Cordes told ADOSH…

      ————————————————————————
      1728 It was Engine 59 that told me that
      1729 they had transmitted over the radio, over air to ground that they had deployed
      1730 and I, and I, it was Charlie Reyes whose the, whose the engine boss down
      1731 there and I told him BS, that uh, they didn’t need to deploy ‘cause the safety’s,
      1732 they were in their safety zone and it was bomb proof and he said no, they
      1733 never got – made it there, they got cut off. And that’s when I knew obviously
      1734 something bad had most likely occurred.
      ————————————————————————

      So that’s just one more account ( from Cordes himself ) that Cordes had absolutely NO DOUBTS where Granite Mountain was going… and in what timeframe they had started the move…. when NO ONE ELSE who ever testified to ADOSH ever admitted to having that same specific knowledge.

      • Marti Reed says

        Thanks for that, WTKTT, but that’s not Gary’s truck. That’s Cougan’s.

        Gary’s truck is the bigger open-bed truck.

        Cougan’s is the smaller covered-bed truck.

        That’s why the first thing I thought, when I read about Gary’s truck pulled into the RHR parking lot in the Russ Reason video was, “Wait, that wasn’t Gary’s truck, that was Cougan’s.”

        It’s easy to mix the two up. But they’re different.

        • Marti Reed says

          Gary’s truck is shown in Swartz’s 20130630_1843__AZ-A15-000688__YARNELL_FB_1_G_RS.JPG. Which, since we were talking about it yesterday, is linked down below.

        • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

          Reply to Marti Reed post on October 10, 2015 at 3:16 pm

          >> Marti Reed said…
          >>
          >> Thanks for that, WTKTT, but that’s not Gary’s truck. That’s Cougan’s.

          This might turn into a “smoke ’em if ya got ’em” moment for people who don’t see the point in knowing, fer sure, who was driving what vehicle that day…

          …but I think you have it backwards. I really do.

          See the following new parent comment above which presents some of the evidence that I *thought* we had already covered which proves it was the other way around…

          http://www.investigativemedia.com/yarnell-hill-fire-chapter-xvi/#comment-311249

        • Marti Reed says

          Cougan is the one with the crossed sweatmarks on his back. Rance is the other one, in a black baseball cap.

          It drove me nuts trying to figure out who the guy in the white helmet was. I’m now thinking it could easiy be Tony Sciacca, thanks to Aaron’s videos.

          The guy in the blue helmet is from the Moki Helitack Crew, I’m pretty sure.

          • Marti Reed says

            OK. I”m going to confess something here.

            Ever since yesterday evening, I have been trying to pin down exactly when and why I decided the guy with the crossed sweatlines was Cougan and the guy without them was Rance.

            One of the reasons I decided was when a light-bulb went on in my head looking at all those photos with the guy with the crossed sweatlines and the guy I still think is Cordes together in the RHR parking lot. It just all of a sudden made sense to me that both of the CYFD Chiefs would have been together at that time in that situation.

            The other thing that I decided on was the David Kadlubowski photo of the parking lot that shows Rance Marquez sitting in his blue truck. He has a baseball cap, not a helmet, on his head.

            Here’s that famous photo (a slightly desaturated version of it that I don’t remember where I found it):

            https://www.dropbox.com/s/8xfj9mhwex3wepo/DavidPhotoRance.jpg?dl=0

            This doesn’t mean I’m POSITIVE about these two in the photos. It just says how I got there.

            I don’t have anything more definitive than that.

      • Joy A. Collura says

        REPLY IN CAPS BELOW TO:
        As long as we are still doing another “who was where, when” roundup… I wanted to be sure you didn’t miss one of those photos that Joy Collura found and distributed ( with full permission of the people who took the photos ) back in July.

        ONE of those photos, taken by Anna Marie Lechner, captures the moment when Gary Cordes when coming down Highway 89 from the Norton Way area and towards the Ranch House Restaurant. I SENT THE YOUTUBE LINK TO HER AND EITHER MONDAY OR WEDNESDAY WE WILL SPEND SOME IN PERSON TIME TOGETHER—ACTUALLY I TOLD HER SHE CAN USE MY MIGUN (http://www.migunworld.com/products.php ) WHEN SHE STOPS BY TO GET A SHIRT— SO ANY OTHER QUESTIONS ASK AWAY— I WILL MAKE SHE GETS THEM ASAP

        There was no definite timestamp in the EXIF data for this photo… but based on a glimpse of the fire ( in the background of the photo ) actually coming INTO the Norton way area… the TIME appears to have been right around 4:45 PM.

        SHE CAN ANSWER THAT. SHE LIVES RIGHT BEHIND THE PLACE OF BARBARA HAMILTON’S AND SHE WAS DRIVING FROM HER HOME OUT THE ROAD CALLED HOPE WAY WHICH IS DIRECTLY ACROSS FROM POST OFFICE

        Gary Cordes’ vehicle would then be seen in the Russ Reason video taken circa 4:50 PM… so that means this new photo proves that Cordes had NOT been at the RHR for any length of time before the Russ Reason video. He, apparently, has just arrived there.I THOUGHT I HEARD IT WAS NOT GARY’S PHOTO BACK IN JULY—MAYBE I AM WRONG…

        At approximately 4:45 PM on June 30, 2013… Anna Marie Lechner was sitting in the driver’s seat of her car parked in a store lot on the EAST side of Highway 89I WOULD THINK SHE WAS ON HOPE WAY BUT CONFIRM THIS WEEK WHEN SHE IS HERE

        • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

          Reply to Joy A. Collura post on October 10, 2015 at 6:20 pm

          >> Joy A. Collura said…
          >>
          >> I SENT THE YOUTUBE LINK TO HER AND EITHER MONDAY
          >> OR WEDNESDAY WE WILL SPEND SOME IN PERSON TIME
          >> TOGETHER… SO ANY OTHER QUESTIONS ASK AWAY

          The most important thing is whether or not she remembers EXACTLY what TIME that photo was taken.. OR… if she still has the actual ORIGINAL photo that might still have an accurate EXIF timestamp embedded in it.

          There’s a discussion that’s continuing up above about whether not it was Gary Cordes or Cougan Caruthers driving that particular truck that day… but regardless of that.. it’s still a VERY important photo and it would be great if we could nail down the EXACT time it was taken.

          >> WTKTT said…
          >>
          >> There was no definite timestamp in the EXIF data for this
          >> photo… but based on a glimpse of the fire ( in the background
          >> of the photo ) actually coming INTO the Norton way area…
          >> the TIME appears to have been right around 4:45 PM.
          >>
          >> Joy A. Collura responded…
          >>
          >> SHE CAN ANSWER THAT. SHE LIVES RIGHT BEHIND THE
          >> PLACE OF BARBARA HAMILTON’S AND SHE WAS DRIVING
          >> FROM HER HOME OUT THE ROAD CALLED HOPE WAY
          >> WHICH IS DIRECTLY ACROSS FROM POST OFFICE

          Yes. That is EXACTLY where she was when she took those 3 photos looking NORTH on Highway 89. “Hope Way” is 1 block south of where the Shrine Road meets Highway 89. She was right there where Hope Way meets Highway 89 on the EAST side of the Highway.

          >> Joy Collura also said…
          >>
          >> I THOUGHT I HEARD IT WAS NOT GARY’S PHOTO BACK
          >> IN JULY—MAYBE I AM WRONG…

          There is a discussion ongoing up above about that right now. There IS compelling evidence that Gary Cordes WAS driving that CYFD pickup WITH the camper top that day.

          >> Joy A. Collura also said…
          >>
          >> I WOULD THINK SHE WAS ON HOPE WAY BUT CONFIRM
          >> THIS WEEK WHEN SHE IS HERE

          Yes. She was ( at intersection of Hope Way and Hwy 89 ).

          That’s already confirmed.

          What we need to know is does she remember the exact TIME… and/or does she still have an original copy of the photo that might have an accurate TIME/DATE stamp?

  35. WantsToKnowTheTruth says

    **
    ** BRENDAN MCDONOUGH – SELF INFLICTED INJURY?

    Huge disclaimer: Brendan McDonough is still listing his ‘occupation’ on his PUBLIC Facebook page as “Public Figure”… and the posts he is making there are also totally PUBLIC. You don’t even have to be a ‘Friend’ of Brendan’s to see all the posts he makes.

    HELPFUL TIP FOR ANYONE/EVERYONE: If you do NOT want some of your Facebook ( or Twitter ) posts to be read by the general public… then you MUST set some kind of ‘privacy’ level for them other than ‘totally PUBLIC’. Google itself knows how to ‘see’ public posts on both Facebook and Twitter… so even if someone is just doing a ‘Google’ search for something else ( like recent newspaper articles ) Google will still return direct links to PUBLIC Facebook and Twitter posts.

    Just yesterday… Brendan made one of ongoing ‘public’ announcements regarding all these speaking engagements he is doing. The most recent one was a guest speaker at an event at the Milwaukee Fire Academy.

    There is still no word about what Brendan is actually SAYING in these speeches/talks he is doing.

    But just below that speaking engagement post is another TOTALLY PUBLIC post ( with a picture ) that Brendan made just 72 hours ago… on Tuesday, October 6, 2015.

    The post is Brendan himself talking ( to anyone and everyone ) about what appears to be a recent self-inflicted injury.

    He also posted a totally PUBLIC photo of the damage he did to himself.

    Brendan’s PUBLIC Facebook page is here…

    https://www.facebook.com/brendan.j.mcdonough

    The PHOTO he posted… and then commented on… is of his own hand and it shows a huge, ugly, nasty GASH on the inside of the thumb on his left hand.

    It appears ( from the comments Brendan himself makes that accompany this photo ), that the wound was NOT the result of a pure accident.

    Since that post is/was TOTALLY PUBLIC… here is exactly what he said…

    ——————————————————————
    Brendan Mcdonough – October 6 at 8:47pm ·

    Well this happened today, more mad at myself because I thought the world was working against me when it’s vice versa. I was slamming t post hard for the wrong reasons. Sometimes I have to stop, breathe and understand no matter what I go through he’s got me Gods got me. He’s proven it time and time but I fail to listen. Thank you God for always finding ways to teach me lessons even tho some are harder than I would like.
    ——————————————————————

    So Brendan’s own ( totally PUBLIC ) comments seem to indicate it wasn’t a complete accident.

    That really is a nasty gash… and I hope Brendan gets that properly taken care of.
    It really looks like it needed to be stitched.

    As Marti continually reminds us… the Yarnell fire is, in fact, STILL BURNING.

    • Marti Reed says

      The first thing that came to my mind:

      West Side Story – Gee Officer Krupke! (1961) HD

      “DIESEL: (As Judge) Right!

      Officer Krupke, you’re really a square;
      This boy don’t need a judge, he needs an analyst’s care!
      It’s just his neurosis that oughta be curbed.
      He’s psychologic’ly disturbed!

      ACTION
      I’m disturbed!

      JETS
      We’re disturbed, we’re disturbed,
      We’re the most disturbed,
      Like we’re psychologic’ly disturbed.”

      https://youtu.be/j7TT4jnnWys

      • Rocksteady says

        A t post is a metal post used in fencing. He was slamming it hard for the wrong reason. No one says it was because of yarnell… Just my opinion

        • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

          Yes… but it’s still odd what Brendan actually SAYS about what happened… and the WAY he was describing the incident.

          Even most of the ‘commenters’ on that PUBLIC Facebook ‘announcement’ he made ( with injury photo ) seemed to be ‘reading a lot’ into what Brendan had said… and the comments were assuming he was talking about some kind of ’emotional crisis’ that was more than just someone having an accident putting in a fence post.

          I truly hope Brendan is not ‘still in crisis mode’. I really do.

    • Joy A. Collura says

      I have no clue when Sonny will read this but I haven’t been around him since TDW stopped by but I do look forward to his remarks on this topic—the man who can have a chainsaw hit his leg and have it so bad bloody and dangling with no ER but keeps on going like no big deal…

      Yet I believe peoples perceptions are quite imbalanced on topic of the use of the word ACCIDENT

      pet peeve of mine I guess

      People saying like Donut on ABC interview that this was not a bad decision-
      yet 19 lives are lost-
      with much information still out there not yet public—
      ???
      really.
      what is going on???
      why Donut— it does hurt me deeply because Donut has seen me in person a few times but never could look me in the eyes—like I am some disgusting person type of gal you would not want to be caught talking to—
      I named alot of people on I M who should be talking but in a recent overhearing conversation a few in the aerial field that was present for the YHF—they can help on missing elements too as well as some media archives that are no longer public.

      A few years back I got a knock on my door from YCSO—they stated my neighbor was aware of my perimeter cameras and wondered if I had any footage of three boys next door jumping off the roof on to the trampoline badly injuring a preteen sports hero and I said probably because my cameras cover 2 feet above my fencing area to capture anyone jumping in or out of my yard but I had no interest in helping anyone out without a court order because I keep to myself. When the other neighbor got wind I might have footage she came right up to my face in a toned spit in my face way stating “my daughter was in a car accident…do you think I want footage of that?”…keep in mind the footage shows not good for her kid and two others— my reply to her besides I did not and was not showing my perimeter footage to anyone and my reply to her/Donut when in this interview (http://www.cbsnews.com/news/brendan-mcdonough-hotshot-who-survived-deadly-arizona-fire-opens-up/) he feels he was spared what he calls a “horrible, freak accident.”
      HELLO!!!
      reallyyyy…..
      Like I told my neighbor and Donut and the world now—
      There are accidents…yet there is also the calculations of the other A word—
      AVOIDABILITY
      Donut, your recent injury—was it a accident or something avoidable just like the results we saw on the YHF?

      I define accident different.
      Like by accident I got pulverized by a football star at North High back in the 80’s when I was not even at the school long—pretty new student– and knew no one. 14 black women came up to me and said “I heard you are telling people you are pregnant with Cedrick’s baby”…I replied “I am new to the school and wrong person”…she aggressively thrusted her body into mine and said “don’t lie to me b i t c *—that’s my bo–you watch it—I am going to kill you.” A song artist named Teddy walked by and told them to knock it off or he would tell security. They walked off. As I was going up the stairs Teddy said “you new here” and I said yes…he said no white gal like you needs to be in a school like this…leave now…the people you just saw will have you killed by the end of the day. I did not believe it. I am in English Lit. and this very strong black man removed my chair that links to desk with ME in it outside and I remember just like it happened—so strong of a memory—
      he grabbed me by the throat out of the desk with chair connection and threw me up against the brick building with full force and starting pounding me with a might I never felt first to my face different areas than to my stomach than one hit took my breath completely out of me and I was down on the ground. I knew my eyes were messed up because it was hard to see and I was gushing blood. I see noone around but him. I heard the door to the classroom open but I cant scream or barely breathe but I have no clue why or how I did the following but as soon as his attention drew to the door opening I bolted into the building running up the stairs THINKING I would be safe in girls bathroom. I lock the stall using the toilet water to wash the blood off my eyes that were burning badly when the blood glazed over my face. I felt wrong person…I would hate to be that girl they think I am..and then I thought I hate to be me— that they think I am this other person. Was this an accident or wrong place wrong time…how does one define it. I really took a blow so hard I was barely breathing…blood was everywhere…I finally heard the door and I stood on toilet in so much pain…and this guy tore the door off the stall and again grabbed me like a football tackle and grabbed my head and forced it in the toilet. Every ounce I am typing is facts. I am being drowned. I think HOW COME LORD??? Why me? I feel I am going to die now. Is this an accident or avoidable…how do you define it…what could I have done different when others thought I was someone else? An older lady school teacher comes in and sees me in such poor condition but does not help me instead she says to Cedrick—you have to go—we have a big game and we can’t have this—I will cover for you–the lady and him leave—I try to use sink but water was not coming out plus I knew I had to leave—I run into that Teddy black guy and he said follow him—he said I could not have security or anyone see me and told me to climb a wired up fence—I thought why—I am going to the nurse office and he said yo beotch yose haz to gits—you do not get it—theysa gunna killz ya—don’t ever come back to this school. That was just the start to a very bad day indeed—because it would take me in a novel way to explain the rest that played out but let’s just say I survived the day and night but not by much…all the while my father was employed by Joe Arpaio and it was award day awhile after that bad day and one of the folks receiving an award and accolades for saving a life almost took mine that BAD day…
      I think there are accidents…but losing people I loved from 9-11 to the insidious diseases plaguing the world and my loved ones….I do believe the label ACCIDENTS is thrown so loose out in the world much too loose like the words I LOVE YOU….I gave the luv ya world a try and look where it got me…when it was meant with warmth to try and connect to people near my age when all my life I do for the elders and children at a safe distance…I have no clue to connect but I can ramble and I can share with purity my life and especially my weekend of the YHF in HOPES it brings clarity to ANYONE trying to properly assess this fire.

      I for one do not think Donut’s hand was an accident but something avoidable—

      I think for me personally it would be a honor to meet Frisby and Eric Tarr and that is just me—
      those two I have a respect for—-and would by their YHF book.

      We are having too much system and not enough individualism.

      • Joy A. Collura says

        We are no longer celebrated for what we are capable of accomplishing, but what we own and might own at whatever means to achieve it; honestly or not. sad.

        I could care less about what I have or don’t have as far as owning but I do care about Sonny….my family and friends and backyard critters-

        That has been WHY I always liked going back on the trails with Sonny no matter the hyde ways of the dew—he is genuine…much like I stepped into an ol’ Zane Grey western novel yet its REAL and in this day not a hundred years ago—

        Most have become conformists, so much in the pursuit of short-term happiness and gratification, that we are willing to endure corruption, degradation, and disenfranchisement…we helped raise those powers to be to have such disrespected bent behaviors, who’s influence decides the culture and morals of its citizens versus allowing people to be who they were born to be. They are given too much control.

        The time for individualism no longer belongs to the past; we must EMBRACE it today.

        It may mean hard times or chaos, but through it we will encounter some form of the sublime through our continued effort to perfect the balance between freedom and unity.

        I wish those MISSING ELEMENTS had that UNIFIED feeling to be FREE to SPEAK UP!

        Too much emphasis on the enormous pride of brotherhood and your calling is what’s keeping some of you from speaking aloud but what about the rest?

        This to me…19 heroes was and is an unbearable loss…
        I was crushed down by some black force before but nothing as hard as the crushing weight to my heart that more have not spoke up yet…

        I am physically sagged…drained…but going to see some ol celeb pals tomorrow so looking forward to that…maybe perk me up or maybe tomorrow is the day I do shave my head…

        question to people like Donut…where do you think when watching the fire walls as we did 6-30-13 was the weakening part besides you not sharing with purity to the world since then… it has been a selective way…you don’t believe me Donut—go ask local business owner and staff and church members…they told me different accounts of you sharing and to me…I stay with being pure because Mark Twain said it If you tell the truth, you don’t have to remember anything. I think you perceived that quote that TRUTH means you don’t have to remember anything…a lie travels faster than the truth…MISSING ELEMENTS please give us the time and interest on I M that we all deserve…

  36. Gary Olson says

    There are some African Americans who have fought wildfire over the years from Northern Arizona (and I’m sure other places as well besides Region 8, the south). And yes, WTKTT, all joking aside, there are pockets of African American families who have lived around Flagstaff and McNary, Arizona for almost 100 years.

    They were brought to that area by Southwest Forest Industries from Louisiana back in the 1920’s or 30’s as cheap labor when Southwest relocated all of its operations from there after they shut down their timber business in the south and moved to Northern Arizona. Talk about culture shock.

    I don’t think any of them have Cajun accents anymore though, or at least I haven’t heard any Cajun accents from the guy’s I have known over the years. The only African American I have ever seen on a Coconino Hotshot crew was on my crew and his family did come from Louisiana. But they are only a few out of tens of thousands of Anglo’s, Hispanics and Native Americans who have fought wildfires in the west.

    My original point is this…whoever that guy is in that photo or made that call on the radio in a Cajun accent, there are hundreds of people who know exactly who they/he are, and in fact…THEY even may be reading our experiment in social media and I wish someone would email me and tell me all of the things I want to know so I can spend more time playin’ on my ATV’s without thinking about all of the important things we still don’t know.

    garylolson@yahoo.com

    And FYI…wildland firefighting is one of the great melting pots of America and has been for decades. It is probably even a better melting pot than the U.S. military, which usually gets high marks in that area. In fact, both of my primary sponsors and mentors as a hotshot crew boss were Hispanic Fire Management Officers, and they never held my pasty white Scandinavian skin against me at all. I’m not saying there isn’t racism in the business, it’s just very rare.

    Now if you are a woman, or gay…now that hasn’t traditionally been such a rosy scenario, but maybe it is better today than it was back in the day?

    • Gary Olson says

      Well…I now realize this entire race discussion is just one more rabbit trail since it now appears that the sighting of an African American wildland firefighter on the Yarnell Hill Fire is probably false. Method reported down below it is the blue emergency light that is most likely giving them the blue smurf color. It is still unknown however, it there could have been a Cajun on the fire or not?

      Say…I have a great idea, why don’t some of YOU PEOPLE who are sitting on all of this information just come out from behind the circled wagons and give it up? It is the right thing to do. The GMIHC will still be heroes. Like I have said before, the truth didn’t change how Pat Tillman is viewed by the public.

      But for anyone who is interested in this particular rabbit trail as a historical reference point, and now that I think about it…I have NEVER even seen an Asian American wildland firefighter. I’m not saying they aren’t out there, I’m just saying I have never seen one.

      • Marti Reed says

        Sorry, I’ve been in a class all day.

        When I first looked at that image, way back when, I did say I thought that fire-fighter with the yellow helmet, facing away from the camera, was black. And then, once I realized that photo wasn’t related to what I was pursuing, I dropped it.

        I have shot TONS of photos of performances with stage lighting, and it can get really weird, so I’m used to it and have done lots of editing (or not) to make those images look better (or not). I think my eye is basically as accurate as WTKTT’s ear.

        Since I still haven’t schlepped my five hard drives over, I can’t go back and look at how I looked at that photo back then.

        But I did re-download it and just color-corrected it in Lightroom (at least for that fire-fighter) by white-balancing on the black band on his helmet.

        Here is that white-balanced photo:

        https://www.dropbox.com/s/c6y0xjew9g5rpok/2618563_G.jpg?dl=0

        I also desaturated some of the red (also from the lights). So in this corrected image, everybody else’s skin tones look pretty normal. Well, Cory’s face (if that’s Cory) still looks a little purple, but that’s the headaches of mixed high-contrast low-light photography!!

        His skin is still very dark, compared to everybody else’s. And it still has something of a blue tone. So I’m still thinking he’s Black.

        There’s something pinging me from inside my memory banks that is saying there was a Black fire-fighter in one of Tom Story’s photos, but I could be mistaken on that.

        I definitely think this may be a bit of a rabbit-hole, but hey you just never know where a rabbit hole might go!!

        And I agree that just because a Black fire-fighter shows up in Central Arizona, that doesn’t mean he would have an intense southern cajun drawl.

        Sure would be nice if somebody in the know would chime in!!!!

        • Marti Reed says

          PS I also work on a color-calibrated monitor.

          Yours might not be. Which might make a difference as to how you see these things.

          • Bob Powers says

            Based on what I see he could be Indian or Hispanic as well.
            Also the BR crewman is Probably not Ball as he has no Radio or a Pencil/pin and note book in his shirt pocket Thus a Crewman.
            My 2 cents

        • Marti Reed says

          And also. The guy to camera right of the fire-fighter in question is Ed Temerowski, the Fire Chief of the Wickenburg Fire Department.

          And the guy to the camera left of him is, I”m pretty sure, Dan Philbin from the BLM, who took over Structure Protection from Gary Cordes that night . The guy to camera left of HIM, in the black helmet, is………..I have no clue.

          • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

            Reply to Marti Reed post on October 8, 2015 at 8:28 pm

            >> Marti said…
            >>
            >> And the guy to the camera left of him is, I”m pretty
            >> sure, Dan Philbin from the BLM, who took over Structure
            >> Protection from Gary Cordes that night .

            I agree. There’s one or two Tom Story photos that seem to show Dan Philbin as well right after he’d parked his truck on the WEST side of Highway 89 and exited it… but even though he’s farther away in those photos it looks like the same fella here facing the camera on the left side of this photo ( with the white helmet and chest harness ).

            >> Marti also wrote…
            >>
            >> The guy to camera left of HIM, in the black
            >> helmet, is………..I have no clue.

            That fella shows up in a number of Tom Story photos even prior to Frisby and Brown departing the RHR parking lot for their ‘ground rescue mission’. In one… he’s just leaning on the back of a Prescott Fire pickup while the other are huddled near the Blue Ridge UTV.

            He’s never been identified… but he seems to be just a ‘grunt’ ( as in… not a member of fire command that day ).

            The thing to keep in mind here is that THIS photo that Gary posted the link and that is getting re-examined was definitely talking well AFTER the deployment itself. The location of the ‘fires’ in the background indicated it could have been as late as 5:30 or so… almost an hour after the deployment.

            So yes… anyone in the RHR area could have been making all those various ‘callouts’ to Granite Mountain prior to the deployment like “Wuz yo status rat now?” and “10-4 Are you with Granite Mountain”… but this photo was taken long after those radio callouts.

            I am NOT ‘absolutely sure’ the person asking ( at 4:13 PM )…

            “Granite Mountun, ( 1 word. Fire? Five? ), Wuz yo status rat now”

            …is a ‘Cajun’ at all. It’s just that I have know people who WERE and his ‘accent’ sounds like that’s what it COULD be. Cajun is different from just a regular ‘southern’ accent.

            But one of the key things here, also, is that if this person is the same one who then came back moments after that and said to Marsh…

            “10-4 Are you with Granite Mountain?”

            …seems to have acknowledged Marsh’s report about “the guys are making their way out the escape route” with the phrase TEN-FOUR instead of the usual COPY or COPY THAT.

            I think that’s unusual… and it should help to identify him.

            With all the radio transmissions captured… this is the ONLY time I am hearing ANYONE acknowledge someone’s last transmission with the phrase TEN-FOUR instead of just COPY or COPY THAT.

            Even if that person saying that is NOT the one who asked the original “Wuz yo status rat now?” question… that ‘TEN-FOUR’ response should nail down whoever that really was ( if that’s what he really said ).

          • Robert the Second says

            Marti,

            I’m gonna have to disagree with you on the one guy being Dan Philbin. That is NOT Dan Philbin.

            • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

              Possibly Rance Marquez?

              The evidence record says that even though most people in fire command seemed to have no idea where Rance Marquez ( DIVSZ ) was for most of the afternoon… they DO report ‘running into him’ again there at the Ranch House Restaurant following the deployment..

              So maybe that’s him ( in the white helmet, left side of photo )?

              • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

                Caveat: Before I get jumped on for the statement above… after the ADOSH interview transcripts became public ( thanks again to Mr. John Dougherty ) it became clear that Rance Marquez didn’t just ‘vanish’ after he had that sort-of-an-argument with Marsh circa NOON-THIRTY and then he left the south side of the fire. Marquez went back up to the school and ‘reported’ to ( Planning ) OPS2 Paul Musser… but Musser sort of blew him off because he was busy. So Marquez then just got involved with some point protection stuff that was going on up there on the NORTH end of the fire.

                When I said “most of fire-command’ didn’t seem to know where he was until they ‘ran into him’ again later at the Ranch House Restaurant… I am talking about the people in DIVSZ itself… the DIVS that Marquez was assigned earlier that day to supervise ( the southeast end of the fire which included Yarnell and Glen Ilah ).

                That would be SPGS1 Gary Cordes, BR Supt. Frisby, TLFD(t) Esquibel… and yes… both DIVSA Marsh and the actual Field OPS1 Todd Abel.

                • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

                  Here is exactly what DIVSZ Rance Marquez himself said he did after he left the south part of the fire and returned up to the Model Creek Elementary school…

                  From Rance Marquez’s one-and-only ADOSH interview
                  on September 23, 2013…

                  ————————————————-
                  A: Well after I left the area, I went back to ICP. I tied in with uh, with Mussers. I didn’t find Todd. Explained to him what I – what I’d found and that there just wasn’t any good options there cause I couldn’t really raise them on the radios and about that time, things started to get really busy. Uh, fire intensity picked up um, tremendously about that time and um, downloaded my information what I had with Mussers and about that time, Cougan called me back and said there’s some structures being threatened right there at the junction, just across – not very far from ICP which was at Peeples Valley. Um, where was it, it was Sickles Road and something over there.
                  ————————————————-

                  So Marquez just did his ‘data dump’ to (Planning) OPS2 Paul Musser… and (apparently) received no big reaction and no further instructions from Musser about what he should be doing next.

                  Cougan Caruthers ( who had earlier been assigned to help DIVSZ Marquez that day ) then informed Marquez about things heating up over near Sickles road ( on the NORTH end of the fire )… and Marquez then left the ICP, did NOT return to the south part of the fire to supervise ‘Division Z’… and he did get involved in that Sickles Road point protection stuff.

            • Marti Reed says

              You’re right, Robert the Second, thanks!!

              I’ve been at kind of a handicap, because I don’t have my four drives worth of “Image Library” moved and set up yet. But I just discovered my Lightroom Catalogue Previews work just fine. I have EVERYTHING from Yarnell hierarchically keyworded up the wazoo so I can compare photos every which way but Sunday, so to speak..

              So I CAN go back and look at everything, after all.

              Dan Philbin had a blue helmet (something that was whispering in my ear, (DOH BLM!) but I just now checked.

              And I think you’re right, WTKTT, about the guy in the black helmet maybe being Rance Marquez. I had the hardest time figuring out which one was Rance and which one was Cougan Carrothers in all the Tom Story Photos.

              Because most of the day they were wearing black baseball hats.

              But now I know that in that Story collection, Cougan still had his baseball hat on and Rance had switched to a black helmet.

              Another related photo to look at is Swartz’s 20130630_1844_AZ-A15-000688__YARNELL_FB_5_G_RS.JPG (sheesh the file names!!), which was taken at 6:44 PM. I think Rance is standing just behind Brian Frisby in that one. It also has Cory Ball, and the guy that I still think is Black, but Bob Powers could be right and he could be Native American or Latino. But I still think he’s Black. I think that other guy in the yellow helmet with the chest harness may be in this one, also. Along with Todd Abel’s truck.

              And also look at 20130630_1843__AZ-A15-000688__YARNELL_FB_1_G_RS.JPG, taken at 6:43 PM. That one might actually have that white-helmeted guy i mistook for Dan Philbin. It also has Brian Frisby, the two yellow-helmeted guys, Ed K, and a guy in a red helmet. Along with Gary Cordes’ truck.

              OK, my class is back on again.

        • Gary Olson says

          Your theory made sense to me except for the Blue Ridge hotshot looking blue, but I do know color on some photos some of the time is tricky. I am just glad Method got us on track.

          And I agree 100 per cent, sometimes you never know what which question will be the right one, especially with this topic.

      • Marti Reed says

        PS Chris MacKenzie (RIP- my absolute favorite of the bunch, and the one that drew me into this) was Asian-American.

  37. WantsToKnowTheTruth says

    Reply to Gary Olson post on October 7, 2015 at 7:07 pm

    >> Gary Olson said…
    >>
    >> I would like to know who the blue guy in this photo is and if he could be
    >> the guy who asked on the radio “Wuz yo status rat now …” ?
    >> And if he is, we need to find him and ask him “Did you make a radio
    >> call to GM about 4:15 pm that day?

    There is actually a chance that whoever was making that call out to Granite Mountain at 4:13 PM might have also supplied their CALL sign.

    Standard ‘callout’ radio protocol is ( of course )…

    Callsign of who you want to talk TO, Your own callsign, The message, ( Optional: The channel )

    The actual Panebaker audio recording has a ‘word’ following the ‘Granite Mountain’ part which MAY be that caller’s ‘call sign’.

    Actual audio capture is…

    “Granite Montun, ??, Wuz yo status rat now?”

    There is actually a WORD there between ‘Granite Montun’ and the ‘Wuz yo status rat now?’ query.

    The ?? part *might* have been the caller supplying attempting to supply their own callsign.

    Problem is… whatever that ‘word’ is there after ‘Granite Mountain’ has never been fully identified.

    Mr. Bob Powers and I discussed this at length some time ago.

    The word SOUNDS like it begins with an ‘F’ and SOUNDS like it might be the word ‘Fire’ or ‘Five’.

    Best we could figure is that perhaps this person did NOT supply their own callsign and this word was just part of the ‘TO’ prefix… and somehow this person was told the name of the outfit was ‘Granite Mountain Five’ instead of ‘Grante Mountain Seven’.

    That’s a stretch… but until there’s a better idea about what that one word might be… ( or until the person who was obviously making this radio callout admits it )… it’s a good guess.

    >> Gary Olson also said…
    >>
    >> Marti said he is African American, and well…I do get paid to ask the hard questions.

    There are African Americans in Arizona?

    All kidding aside…

    On July 12, 2013… just 12 days after the tragedy… the entire Blue Ridge Hotshot Crew appeared in public at the “Prescott Valley Mod Bogs” rally. They had volunteered to be the ones who would push vehicles out of the mud bog if/when they got stuck.

    They POSED for a ‘group photo’ at +0:09 seconds into the following PUBLIC video…

    Youtube Video Title: “Prescott Valley Mud Bogs 7 12 13”
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aVLl-oq-hoo

    There are no African Americans in the crew photo.

    Caveat: There are only 19 Blue Ridge Hot Shots in the portrait, so I guess the one that was missing *could* have been African American.

    Brian Frisby is the one kneeling on the far left, first row, wearing sunglasses.

  38. Gary Olson says

    Of course you are right and I usually put Steed in parenthesis after Marsh’s name, but I always hate doing it because;

    1. Steed was a Marine, and he did what Marines do, make their objections to their commanding officer known and then say, “Fuck it…let’s go for it!”

    2. Steed was highly confident in his physical conditioning and that of his crew, so he THOUGHT they could make it.

    3. Steed had a family to support and a really good career ahead of him with the PFD and he knew what Marsh had done to the last assistant crew boss who had crossed him for a really stupid and chicken shit reason. Really stupid and chicken shit reason especially since I took my family to Disneyland in part of my hotel points after I retired since it was official policy that we could use them since the government couldn’t.

    4. And I don’t think Marsh would have accepted the excuse that “we didn’t have time to make it”, since I think he was hell bent on playing a pivotal role in either saving Yarnell or being in the middle of it to look great for the news media and the needle dick bug fuckers on the Prescott City Council. I know Bob has said he should have agreed and then drug is feet, but Marsh wanted them to beat that flaming front to town in the worst way.

    But I know you are right…and it hurts.

    • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

      No… but that is definitely a ‘Blue Ridge Hothshot’ there on the right edge of the photo… and it is assumed to be Cory Ball.

      His Nomex shirt is perfectly clean. Cory Ball was with the dozer ( and its operator Paul Morin ) all day being HEQB/DOZB, and Ball never did any ‘line work’ that day.

      • Gary Olson says

        I would like to know who the blue guy in this photo is and if he could be the guy who asked on the radio “Wuz yo status rat now …” ?

        And if he is, we need to find him and ask him “Did you make a radio call to GM about 4:15 pm that day?

        Marti said he is African American, and well…I do get paid to ask the hard questions.

        Who knows his name and who he works for? If it is the USFS, he may be under a gag order but I would still like to know?

        • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

          Reply to Gary Olson post on October 7, 2015 at 7:07 pm

          >> Gary Olson said…
          >>
          >> I would like to know who the blue guy in this photo is and if he
          >> could be the guy who asked on the radio “Wuz yo status rat now …” ?
          >>
          >> And if he is, we need to find him and ask him “Did you make a
          >> radio call to GM about 4:15 pm that day?

          He’s definitely a Blue Ridge Hotshot.
          No mistaking the logo on the ‘Blue’ Helmet.

          Location of the photo is, fact, still the edge of the parking lot there at the Ranch House Restaurant… looking SOUTH down HIghway 89. The TIME of the photo is also well after the deployment because of the ‘spot’ fires seen there in the background. The fire didn’t engulf that area seen in the background until well after the deployment.

          It’s almost certain it was late enough that this photo was also taken AFTER the majority of the Blue Ridge Hotshots had already left the Ranch House Restaurant. So that narrows it down as to WHICH Blue Ridge Hotshot this could be still ‘hanging around’ there at the RHR.

          Frisby and Brown are still out at the deployment site… in this timeframe. They didn’t make it back to town until it was actually DARK.

          So that leaves Cory Ball and maybe just one other Blue Ridge Hotshot still ‘hanging around’ there at the RHR in this timeframe.

          As far as whether ANY of those ‘unknown persons’ there with radios ( especially the guy facing the camera with the white helmet and the wiry guy with the other white helmet and other front-chest harness ) could have been the ones heard on the radio talking to Granite Mountain during that time when no one was on the radio talking to Granite Mountain…

          …the answer is a definite ‘possible’.

          The following sort of flew by earlier but it was part of the discussion that ensued when Joy Collura found that photo of what MUST be Cory Ball standing at the intersection of Fountainhead and Lakewood in the 4:05 to 4:10 PM timeframe.

          I pointed out ( again ) that from the time OPS2 Paul Musser left his little ‘get together’ with Gary Cordes on the side of Highway 89 right after Musser first arrived on the outskirts of Yarnell… until the time we actually SEE and HEAR him saying “Everything’s going to shit” to off-the-radar PNF employee KC ‘Bucky’ Yowell in one of Aaron Hulburd’s videos…

          …we have absolutely no fucking idea exactly where OPS2 Paul was, what he was doing, or who he was talking to.

          That’s more than a half-hour at THE most critical time of the afternoon.

          Musser told ADOSH he just headed down the RHR after that ‘meeting’ with Cordes on Highway 89… but the ADOSH investigators then didn’t even ask him the next simple question… “Okay… and exactly what were you doing when you got THERE?”

          Musser admitted to making that 3:42 PM ‘availability check’ radio call out to Eric Marsh… but then basically said he was sure he never talked directly to Marsh after that.

          So here was the ‘theory’ that flew by.that might explain a few things…

          Musser DID get down to the RHR and he WAS there for a period of time while the shit was still just beginning to hit the fan in Yarnell. He WAS the ‘second active Field OPS’ on the fire at that time.

          Musser didn’t go into the RHR bathroom and read a ‘Field and Stream’ magazine for that ‘half-hour’ before he showed up on Shrine Road.

          He was doing SOMETHING ( as OPS2 ).

          What he MIGHT have been doing is what OPS people do.
          He was telling the people AROUND him to ‘do things’.

          And that means it could have been anyone.

          When ASM2 ( Bravo 33, John Burfiend ) seemed ask over the A2G channel for someone ‘down there’ to verify where DIVSA Marsh was and if (quote) “Alpha is with GM right now” circa 4:13 PM… Musser could have turned to just about anyone in that parking lot and said…

          “Hey you… what’s your name? Never mind… I don’t even care what your name is. You just heard what ASM2 asked us to do. Get on the radio and raise Granite Mountain and find out if DIVSA Marsh is actually WITH them right now”.

          Next radio transmission we then hear ( at 4:13 PM ) is…

          “Granite Mountun, ??, Wuz yo status rat now?”

          That led, 30 seconds later, to someone asking Eric Marsh directly the exact thing that ASM2 had asked them to do just moment before this whole radio exchange…

          “Are you WITH Granite Mountain right now?”

          Ditto for 4:27 PM.

          Musser could have been the one driving Cory Ball to the YFD as he was on his way back north to the Shrine area and he was just dropping Ball off there so he could borrow that ATV for the now-in-motion ’emregency dozer line’ scouting.assignment.

          But Musser could have then done his OPS2 thing and said to Ball ( at exactly 4:27 PM )…

          “I’m going inside… YOU get on the horn… find out where Marsh and Granite Mountain are and what the fuck is taking them so long to get here.”

          And that’s exactly what SOMEONE did… at exactly 4:27 PM.

          My point here is that by ‘delegating’ these radio transmissions to anybody who was near him in this timeframe… that enabled Paul Musser to sleep at night when he told ADOSH “The last time I talked to Marsh directly was earlier on at 3:42 PM”.

          Because that might be the actual truth.

          Musser might have been ‘delegating’ all those other ‘communications’ to Marsh to any number of ‘other people’ the whole time he was down there in Yarnell playing OPS2.

          So he really wasn’t (technically) lying to ADOSH in his interview about not having talked to Marsh directly at anything after his original 3:42 PM ‘availibility’ check.

          That’s the theory ( one of them ), anyway.

          But it WOULD also explain why it is that we seem to hear so many DIFFERENT voices communicating with Eric Marsh during this time that ( cough, cough ) no one was communicating with Eric Marsh.

          Marti said he is African American, and well…I do get paid to ask the hard questions.

          Who knows his name and who he works for? If it is the USFS, he may be under a gag order but I would still like to know?

          • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

            By the way… I was going to make sure and post down below regarding Marti’s “Okay… I’ll put it out there” post… but here is as good a place as any.

            I AGREE with Marti’s post below.

            IF some ‘plan’ was hatched to try to do ANYTHING to save ANY part of Glen Ilah… then that ‘plan’ was probably talked about right then and there on the side of Highway 89 when OPS2 Paul Musser came riding down Highway 89 on his white horse and met up with Gary Cordes, just north of where the Shrine road intersect with Highway 89.

            Based on the evidence that has been uncovered… that conversation COULD ( WARNING: Imagineering ahead. Drive slow. ) have gone something like this.

            ——————————————————————
            Musser: Hiya, Gary.
            Cordes: Hey.
            Musser: Another beautiful day in Arizona, eh?
            Cordes: Yep.
            Musser: Whadda ya got down here.
            Cordes: A fucking mess.
            Musser: I can see that… but what resources we got?
            Cordes: Not much. Coupla engines. I got a Task Force out there at the end of Shrine Road helping Blue Ridge connect the dots on some bullshit firebreak I thought we could burn off tonight… but obviously that’s all gone to shit.
            Musser: Yea. I talked with DIVSA Marsh on my way down here in the truck and he said he’s still committed to whatever he and Granite were doing up there somewhere on that ridge.
            Cordes: Well… you can call him back and tell him that’s a total waste of time now. He should have known that earlier. Any work up there at this point is like polishin’ the rails on the Titanic.
            Musser: What can we do about this Glen Ilah deal?
            Cordes: Well… I’ve still got a dozer out there. His loboy is staged right about where we’d need to punch out something if there’s any chance of stopping it from getting into Glen Ilah. Problem is… the asshole showed up without even a red-card or a radio so I had to stick Cory Ball onto that thing this morning as HEQB/DOZB. I think Ball is humpin’ one of the BR trucks out of there right now and over to the RHR… but if we’re gonna retask that dozer for Glen Ilah then we need Ball to get back out to it after he humps that BR truck to the RHR.
            Musser: Okay…. here’s what I think we should do. Do you have Marsh’s cellphone number?
            Cordes: Yep.
            Musser: Okay. You ring him up and tell him what you just told me. He’s wastin’ his time up there. You also get ahold of this Ball guy and tell him we’re not done with the dozer yet and we still need him workin’ with it. Tell him he’s gonna need to SCOUT some dozer line there near Glen Ilah. I’m gonna run down to this Ranch House Restaurant and see who we’ve got down there. YFD Chief Koile was our medical officer up there at that school and he told me just before I jumped into this mess that he’s got an ATV and other shit sitting there doin’ nuthin’ at the YFD Station. He said I could use any of that stuff if it needed to come into play down here. So I’ll wait there for this Ball guy and hump him over to YFD and get him that ATV so he can scout this dozer line ASAP.
            When you talk to Mash… tell him the plan and ask him if he can hump Granite Mountain down there to Glen Ilah. It ain’t gonna do us much good if we push line with the dozer and we got no shots to prep it.
            I think that’s about all we can try and do for this God-forsaken place at this point.
            Cordes: Sounds like a plan.
            ——————————————————————

            And then Musser left Cordes, went down Highway 89 to the Ranch House Restaurant, and proceeded to do exactly that.

            He waited there for Ball. Got him over to the YFD to get the ATV. Authorized HIM to now talk directly to Marsh and try to get him to hurry… and then Musser got wind of the chaos over on Shrine Road and drove over there to see what was going on.

            That’s when he finally ’emerges’ on the evidence record again and we see him greeting Prescott National Forest off-the-radar hire KC ‘Bucky’ Yowell with…

            KC ‘Bucky’ Yowell: Hiya Paul?
            OPSe Paul Musser: “Everthin’s going to shit”.
            KC ‘Bucky’ Yowell: ( laughing ) Yep. Everythin’s goin to shit!”

            And it most certainly was.

            • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

              Followup…

              And here is all that both SPGS1 Gary Cordes and OPS2 Paul Musser ACTUALLY had to say about this ‘meeting on the side of Highway 89’ when they were interviewed ( separately ) by ADOSH.

              They BOTH reference this ‘meeting’… but BOTH said very little about it and no ADOSH investigator pressed either one of them for any details.

              ** CORDES

              From SPGS1 Gary Cordes’ one-and-only ADOSH
              interview on September 11, 2013…
              ———————————————————————-
              A: Right, and Of – Musser showed up and, and met with me where I was parked on the road, asked me what I thought and I basically said this thing’s gonna move, it’s moving pretty aggressively towards town. Um, during…

              Q2: Okay.

              A: …that time, within that time frame, as you drop to the next line, the trigger point for crew rem- uh, removing the crew was met so I, I got on the, uh, told the guys to start picking up and, and getting ready to get out of the area.
              —————————————————————–

              So Cordes tells ADOSH he and Musser most certainly did ‘talk about the situation’ as soon as Musser pulled up to him… and Cordes says he started talking to Musser about how aggressively it was about to move towards town…

              …and then Cordes says “Um… “… and quickly changes the subject.

              He never actually tells ADOSH what the full conversation with Musser was ABOUT… or whether even any kind of ‘plan’ emerged from that meeting by the side of the road.

              And astonishingly… no ADOSH or WFA investigator ever said…

              “Back up the bus a minute, Gary. You said you and Musser talked about the situation as soon as he pulled up. What did the two of you decide you were gonna DO about it? Anything? Did any kind of ‘plan’ at all emerge from that conversation?”

              ** MUSSER

              And now here is what OPS2 Paul Musser said to ADOSH about this same moment when he first met Cordes on the side of the road…

              From OPS2 Paul Musser’s one-and-only ADOSH
              interview on August 16, 2013
              ————————————————–
              A: Uh, got on the 89 to a vantage point and met with Gary Cordes. Face to face with Gary. As far as – oh at that point, I’d also called Granite on their radio. Because Todd was still tied up with Model Creek. I called Granite on the radio and asked if them and Blue Ridge were still committed on the ridge? They said that they were committed on the ridge. But Blue Ridge was on the bottom and may, may be available. I talked with Gary, he said no their committed to, uh, hold – to prepping and hold the dozer line.

              Q2: You’re talking about Blue Ridge?

              A: Yes, Blue Ridge.

              Q2: Okay.

              A: And that Granite was still committed in the black…

              Q2: Okay.

              A: …up on top. Um, Gary, uh, and I talked over what the trigger points were. He pointed them out to me. Uh, and he says and they’re – they’re – I don’t know what his words exact- but anyhow they’re rapidly getting burnt over. Um, the fire now had turned and it was headed almost due south. Uh, Gary goes it’s reached my first trigger and that was for the evacuation of Yarnell, which was actually already in progress.

              Q2: Right.

              A: Uh, started getting out – and he said – and I don’t remember the exact conversation, something about and it’s gonna reach the other trigger point. I’m gonna pull them out. And I go yeah, get them out. Or I don’t know what I said. Uh, but something to that fact, that – to pull – start pulling people out. Tony Sciacca, a safety officer showed up someplace at that time.

              Q2: Uh-huh.

              A: Him and I talked briefly about the situation, what was going on and he said I’m going to Yarnell to make sure everybody gets out. Talked with Gary a little bit longer. And then I moved to Yarnell.
              ————————————————————-

              So just like Cordes… other than the ‘trigger point’ conversations… Musser also says there was ‘more to the conversation’ and he ‘Talked with Gary a little bit longer’… but no details.

              And again… no ADOSH or WFA investigator stopped him and asked…

              “Uh… talked a little longer… about WHAT?”

        • Gary Olson says

          WTKTT, It is going to take me awhile to sort out all of the info you provided, but just to be clear, the guy I was talking about is the guy in the yellow hard hat with his back to the camera. A long time ago I asked why he was a blue smurf color, and Marti replied that is because he is black.

          This is a long shot, but that is all we have at this point. Now comes one of my most famous quotes, “Based on my experience;” there were 3 very rare things that I encountered while fighting wildfire anywhere west of the Mississippi River and those 3 things are;

          1. African American wildland firefighters.
          2. Cajun wildland firefighters.
          3, Wildland firefighters that said things like, “Wuz yo status rat now …”

          So…I just wondered, is it possible there MIGHT be a connection?

          The Blue Ridge guy is a little blue as well but…

          • Methods says

            If I was to guess, I’d say the reason they both look a little “blue” is due to the reflecting blue emergency lights that are all around them.

            • Gary Olson says

              That makes more sense and would explain why the Blue Ridge hotshot is so blue as well, thanks for weighing in.

  39. Gary Olson says

    Thanks to Eric Marsh, hotshots went from toiling in obscurity next to their elite brothers “The Smokejumpers”, to being infamous for making the single biggest and worst tactical mistake in the history of wildland firefighters. Oh…and then there is the fact that he killed almost his entire crew except our hapless hero who was saved by Frisby.

    Hot chick in bar talking to a hotshot;

    “What do you do?”

    “I’m an elite wildland firefighter!”

    “Oh…you must be a smokejumper”

    Epic pick up fail! But then again, they do have “Young Men and Fire”, “Red Skies Over Montana”, their own periodical and the same show business agents who are now representing our hapless hero. So….

    • Gary Olson says

      Oh, and one more thing.

      Memo to the U.S. Forest Service;

      Have you seen the quotes on the TV news recently from the NTSB who are investigating why the “El Faro” went down?

      “Our goal is to make sure this never happens again!”

      And not, “Our goal is to cloud this tragedy in fog so as not to embarrass the Maritime community, speak ill of the now presumably dead Captain, or cause his family any additional pain.”

      “Please stand by for tax payer funded official obfuscation!”

      • Robert the Second says

        Gary,

        I think you’re spot on regarding the GMHS “being infamous for making the single biggest and worst tactical mistake in the history of wildland firefighters. … and … the fact that he killed almost his entire crew except our hapless hero who was saved by Frisby.” And I include Steed as being almost as much responsible as Marsh for all this, in that he held their Crew’s life in his hands. All Steed had to do was tell Marsh “Copy, we’ll be on our way” and then turn to the guys and tell them “We’re not going anywhere until this thing pulses, then we’ll head down.”

        Since you brought up smoke-jumpers, I think this YouTube video clip is appropriate.
        https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RGOvM2u8l64

        I’m just getting back from several months of wildland fire assignments in the Pacific Northwest, and it looks like I have lots of catching up to do, even though I checked in from time to time.

        I do want to add that, from someone ‘in the know’ on the Twisp Canyon Fire: ‘The WFF’s on the left flank applied and followed LCES, the Fire Orders, as well as observed, recognized, and mitigated the Watch Out Situations, and they were just fine. However, those WFF’s on the right flank, where all the burns and fatalities occurred did NOT apply or follow LCES, did NOT follow the Fire Orders, and did NOT observe, recognize, and mitigate the Watch Out Situations.’ It’s also possible that the Right Flank WFF’s did, in fact, OBSERVE the Watch Outs occurring but did not recognize them for what they were – INDICATORS – and therefore, failed to mitigate them and just disengage and leave!

        • Robert the Second says

          And also add that the SAIT is responsible for the BIGGEST COVER-UP IN WFF HISTORY with their SAIR, particularly with the gall to claim that it was actually a “FACTUAL and Management Report.”

          And to further claim: “…, although it is easy to see in hindsight those things that turned out to be important, it is important not to engage in the COUNTERFACTUAL BY ASSUMING A REALITY THAT DID NOT EXIST FOR THE CREW. It is better to ask, ”Why might it have made sense to focus on or not to focus on those things at the time?” because others may find themselves in the same situation in the future.”

          THEY are the ones dealing in the COUNTERFACTUAL BY ASSUMING A REALITY THAT DID NOT EXIST FOR THE CREW.

  40. Bob Powers says

    Back to the Top on the Hail Mary—–
    You guys totally lost me below. The Plan was way to late and ill-advised if there was one. Your not a Hero or Heroic if you disregard all the safety of your crew and take a short cut to get some where putting your crew in danger.

    So lets back up a minuet. It would have taken the crew 75 minuets to tie in with the cat in Glen Isla. Another 1 and a half to 2 hours to put in a line and start a burn out in the highest burn period of the day. At 4 the crew left the top that means by 7 they would be able to fire the line out. By 1700 or 5 the fire was to Helms ranch. How were they going to protect helms ranch in a burn out?

    The fire was already running south by the time the Cat Boss went to scout and the Engine was ask to go to the ranch. No one was paying any attention to the fire weather. .OPS and The IC were pulling out all Fire Fighters on the line.
    I believe the only plan was between Marsh and Cordes.

    They had not finished the Cat line they had worked on all day and could not burn it out due to the winds.

    OPS had no Idea of any plan and yes you expect HS Crews to do the right thing which also includes not putting the crew in harms way. The 2 OPS and IC thought GM was in the Black old burn area.

    If any one is holding info it would be Cordes, the BR Cat boss and maybe McDonough. After the Weather Forecast any indirect line would have been fool hardy to say the lest with the wind predictions.

    It is like the Calif. Fires once the Fire starts running with the wind you are not going to stop it with Indirect Line. This kind of fire with the Flam heights would jump 4 lane Highways.

    • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

      Reply to Bob Powers post on October 6, 2015 at 1:42 pm

      >> Bob Powers said…
      >>
      >> Back to the Top on the Hail Mary—–
      >> You guys totally lost me below. The Plan was way to late and ill-advised
      >> if there was one. Your not a Hero or Heroic if you disregard all the safety
      >> of your crew and take a short cut to get some where putting your
      >> crew in danger.

      Thanks for inserting the ‘reality check’. I was trying to find the place below to insert the following comment of my own ( to clarify even what I said ).

      When I ( personally ) used the phrase “it would have made it all seem even more heroic if they had just admitted such a plan was in place… *IF* it really was”…

      …what I MEANT was it would have served THEIR ( Arizona Forestry ) purposes to do that.

      I ( me, personally ) still don’t think their was anything ‘heroic’ going on at all.

      If the plan even existed… it was hair-brained.

      As you just said. Too little… too late.

      There was NO REASON for those men to lose their lives that day.

      Zero. Zip. Nada.

      “Hail Mary” plan or not… the choices made represent almost the textbook definition of “depraved indifference”.

      That’s not heroism.

      I believe all the discussion below was “allowing” was that IAOI ( If And Only If ) there was this hair-brained “Hail Mary” plan in place and it had ANYTHING to do with why Marsh was trying to pull those men down to Glen Ilah “most ricky tick”…

      …then it’s still a mystery why they ( Arizona Forestry ) wouldn’t have just admitted it.

      The PRESS and the PUBLIC would have eaten that shit with a spoon and then in true Dickensian style would have held up their bowls and just said “Please, sir… can I have some more?”

      • Sonny says

        I would agree that there was gross error and what Bob Powers described in California wild fires jumping four lane highways once the wind takes charge was exactly what we were seeing that day. There was no stopping that fire by 11am and you can imagine what they were seeing by four pm —what caused them to think they could out run a wind change has to have an explanation. But risking the lives of 17 young and mostly inexperienced young firemen has to be most unheroic. Those young men showed their inexperience by believing their leaders were doing the right thing by the gross error of dropping them into a death trap. I say this from experience where I refused to go back into a mine drift that was showing signs of movement yet six other miners believed it was safe because they believed the shifter boss. Their lives could have been lost and as it was they went through much travail finding an air shaft to get out. Experience is the greatest teacher and if you have a boss then hope he has plenty and is not willing to give you undue risk that will kill you

        The point is leave off the BS of making this a heroic deed and leave off the statues and restricting what would have been or is a crime scene and big taxpayer cost. Say what it really was – a sign saying one of the worse fire fighting debacles in history

      • Marti Reed says

        I completely agree.

        I don’t think anything in this was actually heroic.

        But the narration could have been made to look, at least, a bit more that way. Much more so than the narration they chose which included or supported either…..

        1. it is a complete mystery, given the total lack of communication, why they incomprehensibly went down into that bowl full of explosive fuels that everybody and their brother has said they would have NEVER (stupidly) gone down into, all things considered.

        2. Or, as Darrell Willis said, “God had another plan that day,” which, I believe then morphed into the families’ narrative that they were somehow divinely swept up into heaven in order to look down and protect their families from that moment forward into eternity

        3. Or, as EN and, apparently, Holly Neill also, seem to be saying, that that awesome inscrutable fire just unpredictably did something that NO ONE could have anticipated and just swallowed them up into it’s evil maw.

        None of those narratives has ever been truly credible. But they’re alive and well.

        Compared to them, in my mind, even though what actually happened wasn’t actually really heroic, given that most everybody thinks that just by showing up and pushing into the worst parts of a wildland fire (while everybody else is running away) Hotshots are some kind of heroic just by trying to do their jobs, Which to a certain extent, relatively speaking, is the case.

        if the SAIT had just said that they decided to participate in a plan to save Glen Ilah, and said what that plan was, and said how they just didn’t make it as the fire burned faster than they anticipated and turned around and caught them by surprise……

        It would have been MUCH better than what all those other totally non-credible bogus narratives have, over the past two years, engendered.

        Joy’s right. Also Randi Rhodes preaches this. The truth may be difficult, and may make you miserable, but it’s a WHOLE LOT EASIER to remember. You don’t have to keep re-deciding how to narrate it, and fix it, and keep it coherent and believable, and whatever.

    • Gary Olson says

      I for one, was not suggesting it was a GOOD plan or a workable plan or something they should be thinking about, nor do I think it would have made any heroes for trying it since one of my favorite things here is when you call structures “part of the fuel bed.”

      In my continual interest in trying to determine “why the GMIHC left the black” I am simply putting it out there for discussion, could this have been Eric’s plan that someone or more than one someone bought into to give it a shot?

      Nor do I ever think it is a good idea for wildland firefighters to engage in structure protection except for engine crews under limited and specific conditions. And that has been my strong position from day one, it would NOT have made heroes, it would have made them…stupid. But that doesn’t mean “they” would not have tried to spin it that way.

      And it very may well be that Cordes, the BR Cat boss and maybe McDonough were the only ones who knew about the Hail Mary Plan IF it existed at all (other than the other GMIHC- Marsh and Steed) but I am sure others found out about it later, IF it existed and then they became part of the cover up as well.

      • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

        IAOI this plan actually existed… and IF ( but only ONLY if ) Marsh was the ‘author’ of it… I keep wondering exactly WHEN it was ‘discussed’ between Marsh and who I will simply call “other people on the other side of the fire”.

        The fact that the actual INITIATION of the whole thing ( As in… “You guys scout some dozer line down there and I’ll get the ex-Marine to get those fellas down there” ) had to have been a ‘coordinated’ plan…

        …WHEN ( and how? ) did even that ‘coordination’ take place… and why didn’t more people hear it.

        I think the answer there has to be that the ‘initiation’ of this ‘plan’ ( if it ever was initiated ) took place via cellphone.

        The investigators should have obtained EVERYONE’S cellphone records.

        No question.

        In this day and age… that’s like “Investigations 101”.

        • Norb Szczurek says

          Don’t get me wrong – I never said it was a good plan, in fact I agree with Bob on too little too late. However, I can find no other reason for a shot crew to leave the safety of the black. Especially if the plan was created by their own Sup who was working as Division A. Again, no plan justifies violating safety practices and putting your personnel in harms way, but I see no other viable reason for them leaving the black. And yes, the odds were stacked against them with being able to pull something like this off, timing, wind, weather, etc. as Bob also points out. But I can guarantee as an OSC that I would not rely on a single dozer line alone (if it were put in place) to hold the angry fire that was coming off the hill.. In my mind that is the reason I believe “someone” thought of firing the dozer line if it could be put in place, again not textbook but the only other option (and probably the best option) was to sit back and take pictures of the big dog eating.

          • Bob Powers says

            It is still possible that their was a plan I am not saying there was not one.
            that Marsh was part of it based on statements from Cordes and his directing of the Cat and Engine crew. It may very well be why Marsh pushed the crew to move to the Ranch. There is just a few threads that are not quite tied to gather to put this into play as a Idea/plan.
            It was like a panic to save Glen Isla with not much info. Before the crew moved you would have thought there would have been some kind of scout on feasibility. What would or could they do.

            20/20 hind site says they should have looked at a plan of indirect line and implemented it that morning with more than 1 cat and never put a crew on the mountain.

            • Bob Powers says

              My Other question I have asked before why was Marsh and Steed calling it an escape route rather than just moving to reengage, Coming off the mountain to the Ranch road. Why Escape route if that is what they were doing?????
              That has never made any sense.

        • Marti Reed says

          OK. I’ll stick it out there.

          I think, given the timeline, that this “plan” was part of Gary Cordes’ conversation with Paul Musser on 89. Too much leads back into that.

          Including Paul Musser then heading into Yarnell to do whatever, including, I think, beginning to secure that ATV, without which, I don’t think Cory Ball would have said to Moran, around about 4PM, something along the lines of, “You wait here, I’m gonna come back soon.”

          I don’t think Cory would have said that if he wasn’t really really SURE that was going to be the case, and I don’t think him just thinking Blue Ridge was “getting ready to head” to the Ranch House Restaurant would have given him that confidence. He didn’t KNOW he would have guaranteed access to their UTV.

          That call to Cory to join into this had to have happened, given all the tight timing, before or around when he took that photo of the staging area (and, since I still don’t have my hard drives and can’t look at the photo, I don’t remember exactly when he took that photo, but I think it was around 3:50-4:00).

          And I agree with what WTKTT has written about Eric calling Frisby to come up to his vantage point and SEE what was happening, and I think Eric was SEEING the possibility of putting that line in when he called Frisby to come up.

          That was just a little bit BEFORE Musser, according to Musser (but we have no actual evidence of that), got the availability check regarding Granite Mountain being “committed to the ridge.”

          The only time Cordes and Musser could have started discussing and beginning to implement this had to have been when they were face-to-face meeting on 89.

          And I think that they couldn’t have done this without some kind of communication with Eric. They had no way of knowing, at that time, what the fire looked like in relationship to Glen Ilah without Eric’s input. I don’t think they would have, just between themselves, been able to conjure up this plan.

          So I think/agree that there had to have been some communication going on between them and Eric. We have no radio evidence of this. It could just be missing from the videos we have. Or it could have been taking place over a cellphone. But I do believe it had to have been taking place.

          The fact that there was never any investigation of the cellphone records is totally galling to me, all things considered. There was a whole ton of cellphone conversations going on on this fire, in my humble opinion.

          So those are my thoughts.

          I have a new credit card, BTW, and the current official explanation of what happened regarding my credit card makes absolutely no sense to me. Ongoing saga, but at least I now have access to my MONEY.

          Namaste.

          • Marti Reed says

            “Bob Powers says OCTOBER 6, 2015 AT 4:23 PM

            My Other question I have asked before why was Marsh and Steed calling it an escape route rather than just moving to reengage, Coming off the mountain to the Ranch road. Why Escape route if that is what they were doing?????
            That has never made any sense.”

            I think, to be honest, the “cover-up” started as “the plan” was unfolding. And I think the “cover-up” included calling this an “Escape Route.” Which, to us, it obviously wasn’t.

            It’s the only thing I can think of.

            The only person, out there on the fire, who would have “officially” known what that “short-hand” actually “officially” meant would have been Gary Cordes. He was the one who, that morning, told, first Eric Marsh, and then, the Granite Mountain Hotshots, “This is your bomb-proof safety zone.”

            As a photographer, one of the tenets I sometimes abide by is “shoot first, apologize later.”

            I really do think that some of this was being flown under the radar.

            • Marti Reed says

              To be perfectly honest, I really don’t think even Brian Frisby knew what was going on, because Eric, after the face-to-face convo on the ridge got aborted, even, apparently, misled him with his agreement with Brian’s question “you mean the two-track we/you came in on?”

              I actually really do think Brian Frisby thought Granite Mountain came down on the two-track leading down further into the black.

              But I could be wrong about that. WTKTT has written otherwise.

              A whole lot of this is still a jumbled mess. Which is why we are still here, over two years later, trying to figure it out.

              • Marti Reed says

                And to that I would add.

                I don’t actually think Todd Abel was, all that much, in on this.

                I think he was so busy doing something else that was critical and complicated on the north side of the fire, especially after Paul Musser made himself the other Field Ops (and I think Todd was relieved by that, all things considered), that, after he told Marsh to “hunker down and be safe,” he basically let go of tracking what was going on on the southwest part of the fire.

                I’m saying this, all the while knowing that WTKTT has said elsewhere that he thinks the voice in the 4:27 Gamble video urging them to get down more quickly is that of Todd Abel.

                And that could mean I could be wrong on what I am saying.

                I just don’t think, currently, that Todd Abel was “engaged” in what was happening here. I think, all things considered, including what was happening on his end of the fire, he was quite comfortable letting Paul Musser manage/micro-manage what was happening on the opposite side of the fire.

                Span of Control.

  41. Gary Olson says

    WTKTT said,

    “>> Gary Olson also said…
    >>
    >> As far as why “they” are obfuscating the truth, it’s like
    >> the GEICO commercial say’s…that’s what they do.

    Yes… but as one of the persons who pays their fucking salaries… I’m not giving them a ‘free pass’. Sorry.”

    And I asked,

    “A free pass for obfuscating the truth? Or a free pass if they bought into the plan? Or both?”

      • Gary Olson says

        I certainly agree with you that no one should get a free pass for obfuscating the truth, I think they should face disciplinary action up to and including termination and possibly criminal prosecution. All of my training has focused on the fact that you don’t have to talk (unless given a Garrity waiver) but if you do talk, you had better tell the truth.

        And that goes for me, or any other law enforcement person who becomes the target of an internal or criminal investigation, the rules are no different. In fact, during my time (18 years with the BLM) I was the target of four separate internal investigations in addition to a few administrative reviews and I always focused on one thing…tell the truth.

        And by the way…I never spent even one day “on the beach” so…don’t read anything into that. They say if you have never been the target of an internal investigation…you aren’t trying hard enough. Or at least that is what I always said, but I think I made it up.

        As far as buying into the plan under the circumstances, that is just my opinion knowing how chaotic things can be and there has to be a trust level in order for the system to ever work. If a Division Supervisor and a hotshot crew boss tell you they can move their crew to town to provide the ground forces for a backfire, I think it would be overreach for anyone in Ops to reply, no you can’t do that because there is always the presumption that anyone in that position would not be suggesting such a plan, or buying into such a plan, whichever way it went IF it went at all, if they couldn’t do it safely and in accordance with the rules.

        But the latter is a judgment call, and your call if different than mine. Now if it is revealed at some point that the plan actually existed, and that they knew more or should have known more as to why it was a bad idea, than my opinion would change on whether or not they should get a free pass on that as well.

        • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

          Total agreement on what seems to have happened AFTER the tragedy.
          Everyone decided that the “ask me the right question and I might give you the right answer” game was the way to go… especially with ADOSH.

          As for what might have gone down DURING the fire… Yes… when some ‘Hotshot’ is being a ‘Hotshot’… you are SUPPOSED to believe he/she can do what he/she is telling you he/she can do.

          Just like you are supposed to believe a ‘Type 2 IA’ crew can actually achieve a hike out to a fire ( but that’s a Saturday story, not a Sunday story ).

          That being said… for no one who was “buying into” the plan to at least lift a finger to make SURE this “Hotshot” guy wasn’t completely out of his fucking mind… is simply unacceptable.

          That’s where I withdraw my ‘free pass’ for ‘Trusting the Hotshit Hotshot guy” ( no typos there ).

          There are LOT of things that management could have done to make SURE this ‘risky’ plan wasn’t going to kill anyone. Air Attack could have been SPECIFICALLY told to be their “eyes on the fire”. Management could have asked for COMPLETE assurances from Mr. “Hotshit Hotshot” that LCES was in place… including exact location of the ‘Lookout’ that was to be either guiding them in to a landing… or calling for an abort.

          That might even be one of the most important “Takeaway Lessons” from this whole event.

          Never again should someone COMPLETELY trust some “Hotshit Hotshot” to be able to do what he/she is promising… WITHOUT proper supervision.

          From now on… TRUST… but VERIFY.

          • Gary Olson says

            WTKTT said,

            “That being said… for no one who was “buying into” the plan to at least lift a finger to make SURE this “Hotshot” guy wasn’t completely out of his fucking mind”

            That is where you and I are having a disconnect. The day someone has to start checking to make SURE a “Hotshot” guy isn’t completely out of his fucking mind, is the day the system will collapse.

            I don’t think you understand just how much respect, deference, and support the wildland firefighting world gives to their hotshot crew bosses. And there are some very good reasons for that, that you just don’t get! Hotshot crew bosses are the FUCKING ROCK STARS in their world. Nobody challenges the rock stars of their world, if they say it or do it, it has to be right, because they are the hotshot crew bosses!

            Here is a clue to see if I can break through your barriers. There have been hotshots fight ten of thousands of very dangerous fires under some of the most extreme conditions you can imagine in a world run by Chaos since the late 1940’s. And before the Yarnell Hill Fire, there were only 3 fatality fires involving hotshots for a total of 24 deaths in a high risk job where hundreds (millions?) of man hours had been worked. And we know why all of the previous 24 hotshots died and it came down to somebody above them, had to much “can do” spirit.

            This is the house that Bob and I and a lot of others built one brick at a time which is just one of the reasons why I am so pissed off at Eric Marsh. His arrogance and stupidity has led to people like you to thinking you are qualified to make statements like “how someone has to start checking to make SURE a “Hotshot” guy isn’t completely out of his fucking mind” because what he did was so arrogant and stupid…and INEXPLICABLE!

            This was OUR HOUSE and Eric Marsh wasn’t fit to be in it.

            That has never come up before now because as I have said many times and YOU PEOPLE need to understand, the Yarnell Hill Fire was NOT just one more fatality fire involving hotshots. IT WAS OFF ALL OF THE KNOWN FUCKING CHARTS!

            Something very bad and very special (in a really bad way) happened on the Yarnell Hill Fire that has never happened in the recorded history of hotshots. And I don’t give a fuck if Amanda Beno-Marsh or Jesus Fucking Christ Himself doesn’t like me looking into it, I am going to keep on until I find some answers that make sense to me.

            • Bob Powers says

              Gary You are Right—- I would add that a lot of other Hot Shot Crews knew that Marsh was way out there and worked with some reserve around him. Take a few comments on here from those that said Marsh made bad decisions and got away with them for a long time.
              I will bet most if not all of the R3 HS Crews knew about his Drug use that caused a crew to be disbanded. You know like I do if a HS Crew is going off the deep end other crews distance them self’s from them.
              Let them sink or swim. The word travels fast.

              One big question that we have not really discussed——
              Why would another Superintendent question Marsh on exactly what he was doing where he was going on his move to a safety zone. Marsh was evasive and said they were moving in the black to another location.
              The real eye opener here is why Frisby would even ask Marsh did he think Marsh was going off the reservation and out of the safe black and do something stupid?
              Superintendents normally have Faith in their fellow Sups.—-

              Those questions by Frisby have bothered me for some time I think they were asked fore a reason Trust—-

              Why would Marsh move the Crew when they were in the Black.?
              Where would he be moving them to?
              Was he making another bad decision?

              99% of the time one Sup. dose not question another on what they are doing. They normally trust each other.
              Remember that it was Frisbys Idea to post a lookout.
              Marsh and steed are saying their in the Black and then they are moving. What was going on and why.

              • Gary Olson says

                Good point Bob, this has bothered me for awhile as well but I was never able to articulate it. It did seem like Frisby was a supervisor double checking with a subordinate he had learned not to trust.

                “Those questions by Frisby have bothered me for some time I think they were asked fore a reason Trust”

                So yes, I think you are right, Frisby didn’t trust Marsh was doing the right thing.

            • Marti Reed says

              Thanks for writing this up, Gary. And thanks for your patience.

              What you are saying is kind of what I was sensing in all of this, but I don’t have your experience and knowledge and authority to “KNOW” it.

              I just had this immediate sense, when I read what WTKTT wrote, of, “SHEESH, nobody should have to baby-sit a Hotshot Crew, for God’s sake!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! DUDE!!!!!!!!”

              Now I know why.

              • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

                Reply to Marti Reed post on
                October 7, 2015 at 7:49 am

                >> Marti said…
                >>
                >> I just had this immediate sense, when I read
                >> what WTKTT wrote, of, “SHEESH, nobody
                >> should have to baby-sit a Hotshot Crew, for
                >> God’s sake!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! DUDE!!!!!!!!”

                I wasn’t talking about ‘baby-sitting’.

                I’m talking about when critical decisions are being made and lives could be at risk ( which was exactly the situation in Yarnell that afternoon )… it’s management’s JOB to make sure they don’t have some fucking Yahoo out on the line who is capable of killing people… and might be in the process of doing just that.

        • Marti Reed says

          Gary, you wrote:

          “Now if it is revealed at some point that the plan actually existed”

          I don’t understand how people can say “if it is revealed.”

          Cory Ball was ordered, by Cordes, to connect with Justin/someone by going up into Glen Ilah to scout the possibility of putting in a dozer line.

          Someone who was driving a white truck, who was not actually dealing, personally with the fire that was burning down towards Yarnell, or still burning up near Model Creek Road or Peeples Valley or Sickles Road or the MountainAir Mini Mart or the Shrine Road and the Youth Camp, dropped Cory Ball off at that Yarnell Fire Department to QUICKLY pick up their ATV in order to drive it up into Glen Ilah in order to accomplish that.

          Gary Cordes asked his Task Force Leader Trainee to send an engine or two to the Boulder Springs Ranch in order to “safely” pick up the Granite Mountain Hotshots there.

          How could all of that not equal a plan? How does that happen without a plan?

          I’m just not getting it, apparently. I’m having a hard time thinking this was all just coincidental or random or some kind of “organic.”

  42. WantsToKnowTheTruth says

    Reply to Marti Reed post on October 6, 2015 at 11:15 am

    NOTE: Continuing this conversation from down below in a thread that was running
    out of room. It was/is more discussion about the ‘dozer’… and whether it ever really
    did make it out of the danger area.

    >> Marti said…
    >>
    >> Well between the first linked conversation and the second linked conversation,
    >> there was a miles-long set of conversations regarding the various things that
    >> happened, including all the handings off of the dozer from so-and-so to so-and-so
    >> and such and such.
    >>
    >> It was pretty clear that nothing had happened to either the dozer or the operator,
    >> because they were both put back to work without much of a hitch. It’s just that
    >> somebody didn’t know where they were, so they got put on the list, but apparently
    >> that was just a mistake.

    In the end… I hope that turns out to be the simple explanation.

    It’s still very disturbing to consider the alternative… that fire command just let this dozer and its operator ( Paul Morin ) “fall through the cracks” and Mr. Morin came close to being the 20th fatality that day.

    But let’s assume for a moment that the dozer DID ‘make it out of there’… and it really did ‘follow Cory Ball out’ from the south end of the Sesame area.

    That raises a ton of ‘other’ questions.

    Example: If the risky move being made by Granite Mountain had ANYTHING to do with this possible ‘Hail Mary’ plan down there near Glen Ilah… then the moment that dozer was being REMOVED from the area… that would have meant “the plan” was already being aborted.

    So what are we to assume, then, if that’s the case?

    That someone didn’t even TELL DIVSA Marsh or Granite Mountain that even if they had ‘set out’ with the idea of helping with some dozer line near Glen Ilah… that “the plan” was “called off”… and there was no longer any need for them?

    OR… that someone then DID tell DIVSA Eric Marsh that the ’emergency dozer line” plan that he, himself, might have authored circa 3:45 PM just wasn’t coming together because there wasn’t going to be TIME to execute on that plan…

    …but DIVSA Eric Marsh, himself, didn’t “call off” Steed and the men… and he just let them “keep coming” even though he knew the original reason for the move wasn’t even coming together?

    This whole thing remains a true “puzzle”… with “pieces” that have to tightly fit in order for the existing evidence to make sense.

    Each ‘piece of the puzzle’ might answer one lingering question… but ( more often than not )… a lot more ‘new’ questions then come onto the table.

    Bredan’s own recent admission that he had ALWAYS been withholding important information from investigators is just another example.

    I suppose we can believe him that Eric Marsh really DID just ‘take off south’ on his scouting trip the moment Brian Frisby informed him he wasn’t going to make the face-to-face and now needed to save Brendan’s life, instead… and that Eric Marsh really WAS out ahead’ of those men and ‘scouting the route’…

    …but then all the other disturbing questions come onto the table.

    If Eric Marsh really was that far out AHEAD of those men that day… and anywhere EAST of the mouth of the box canyon at any time after 4:15 PM… then why did he let them keep coming forward into that deathtrap?

    • Marti Reed says

      Quick reply, and then I have to race to the Credit Union, because we discovered my credit card, which was the replacement for the one I have that expires this month, seems to have gotten stolen in the mail (long story), so we stopped it, and now I have to race to get a new one, cuz I have no other cards thus no access to cash or anything.

      In our miles long discussion, which I spent this morning reading, we decided the most plausible thing, fitting the timeline et al, was that Moran didn’t follow Cory Ball out. Instead he sat there and waited, but then the fire started coming down toward Glen Ilah and he said, to himself, something along the lines of “f*ck this, i’m getting out of here’ and then left,

      And Cory didn’t know about that as Cory started back into Glen Ilah, where he only got to the Lakewood/Manzanita intersection before he had to turn around.

      And nobody saw (or perhaps that’s when Joy’s eye-witness saw him “driving out”) him, at least nobody that was supposed to be keeping track of him, because he took the other road out and then started heading north because he HAD been requested earlier to do exactly that.

      So it’s not like the plan “got cancelled” and then he left. The plan never got cancelled, but Moran just……left because his staging spot was about to get set ablaze.

      And he had no radio, so……………

      Eventually, after the deployment et al, probably somebody like Todd Abel, or even Musser, or that BLM guy who was put in charge of
      Gary’s Structure Protection Group 2, connected back up with him, and they put him to work dealing with the power lines, under the DozerBoss friend of Todd Abel, Dean Steward.

      OK gotta go. Thanks for pulling this up here.

      • Bob Powers says

        I will add until Cory went back to scout and found the fire blocking access and Cordes or others Got to the Restaurant Parking area and saw the South side of the fire running South. No one knew what that side of the fire was doing they were all on the North side or getting out of Yarnell East to the Highway.

        • Marti Reed says

          I agree with what you wrote.

          Except, possibly, with the exception of Paul Musser.

          He had left Gary Cordes on 89 at around 3:50 and headed into Yarnell. He never said in his interview what he was doing there during that time.

          But I think he picked up Cory at the Ranch House Restaurant and then drove him to the Yarnell Fire Department to get the ATV that Cory then drove up into Glen Ilah, at )(via Cory’s photograph) at 4:27 PM, exactly the same time that Ronnie Gamble was catching, via his video-recording, that convo regarding “it would be great if you could get here sooner.” to which Eric replied (with some exasperation in his voice) “They’re coming off the heel of the fire.”

          I’m thinking it’s possible Musser didn’t hear that. I’m thinking it’s also possible he did.

          But it’s pretty hard for me to think that Musser didn’t know what that fire was doing then. The view from the parking lot of the Yarnell Fire Department to the Ridge and everything else in between, is one of the bestest.

          It wasn’t until he dropped Cory off at the Yarnell Fire Department that he skedddled over to the Shrine Road area. He was probably, at that time, the one most situationally aware of what the fire was doing as it was coming down into Glen Ilah etc.

  43. Gary Olson says

    Well…I am glad that everyone seems to understand that the reader who I agreed with was not saying definitely that is what happened, only that based on the conditions and circumstances on the ground at the time that decision would have been made, it is MOST logical that it came from Marsh, but many others bought into it and were to play a role in.

    And as far as why they didn’t spin it that way as WTKTT has asked, I don’t know either. But maybe by that time they realized just how foolish and reckless that decision was and they didn’t see the need to damage (in their eyes) the reputation of Type 1A crews and embarrass or make the families angry that their loved had died for such foolish and reckless plan?

    The only thing that really bothers me, is that IF we are right about the entire concept of a Hail Mary Plan even existing, a lot of people would have known about it.

    And normally, you can’t keep a secret if more than one person knows about it. So I really am going to try and find a way to shake the story loose as I have been saying.

    And that way has been suggested to me by another very smart and loyal reader who does not post here because…I don’t know why, but it doesn’t matter.

    And this goes back to what I have been saying for two years now, but I am embarrassed to admit that I did not connect the dots with what I knew had to be done, which is to develop a Source of Information (SOI), with the time tested way of developing an SOI when appealing to their civic duty does not work.

    Offer to pay money for the information. How? And who pays? Where does the money come from? We need to work out a lot of details, but the money could come from Crowd Funding.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crowdfunding

    It would be best if that were done under the banner of the Investigative Media banner because normally a “group” endorses the idea. But if John does not think that is a good idea or something his thread should not be involved in, I would establish a shadow group under a different name, or if nobody wants to support it, I will try it under the GO Banner of In The Pursuit Of Truth, Justice & The American Way Foundation and Website.

    So…I would like everyone to think about the idea and weigh in if you support the idea, at least in the initial stages of developing it?

      • Gary Olson says

        Thank you…but if I understand how the system works, I am not asking any one person to financially support the idea. I think the idea is to have dozens, hundreds, thousands? of people support it.

        I do think however, it would be helpful for a group, or a board, or a committee, or a gaggle of people support the IDEA, so it isn’t just one guy saying, hey, why don’t you just send me some money. Although from some examples I have been give, that works as well.

        And as far as money working? It might…it worked for our hapless hero didn’t it?

  44. Gary Olson says

    Marti Reed says

    October 4, 2015 at 8:21 pm

    OK. I’ll bite.

    Why do you think “the Yarnell Hill is above and beyond all others and not just because of the unusually high death toll”?

    I’m not asking to be adversarial. I just truly want to know.

    And say, Oh…I thought everyone hung on my every post and had them all memorized. Without going back and finding my exact quotes. Well on second thought, I don’t remember what I said, so I will go back and look it up.

    • Gary Olson says

      Couldn’t find it, so I will take a shot at recreating what I am sure must have been a piece of masterful prose. And actually, this is a theme I have been putting forward for two years now, so I don’t think all of the reasons that I have given are even in a single post.

      I believe the only fair comparisons are fatality fires involving hotshot crews. Those are the Loop, the Battlement Creek and the South Canyon (often mistakenly referred to as Storm King).

      The Loop Fire occurred in what was essentially the P I (Pueblo I) of wildland firefighting. As a reference point, the Mann Gulch Fire occurred in the Folsum Complex and the Idaho Fires of 1910 occurred during the Clovis Culture period The Battlement Creek Fire happened during P II and the South Canyon Fire burned as late as P III.

      But the Yarnell Hill Fire Disaster happened during the PRESENT TIME PERIOD! And it was far worse than anything else in recorded history, and even in any prehistoric time period.

      Oh, this is going to be a long explanation and I am burned out after my earlier on-line debate with WTKTT and he hasn’t even responded yet. God only knows how hard that is going to be to deal with! And I am still working on my Mother-Of-All-Posts to Representative Fann. It is so hard being me!

      I am going to have to get back to you with a detailed explanation on this but that is the Readers Digest version.

      Side Note: One of the first things they teach at investigator school is to establish rapport with your subject. So I am trying to do that with Marti by showing her I know some of the terms archeologists use.

      • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

        Reply to Gary Olson post on October 5, 2015 at 6:47 pm

        >> Gary said…
        >>
        >> Couldn’t find it, so I will take a shot at recreating what I am sure
        >> must have been a piece of masterful prose.

        I think this the comment you were looking for.
        It was down below in this chapter.

        Direct jumplink to the ( full ) comment below ( in this Chapter ) would be…

        http://www.investigativemedia.com/yarnell-hill-fire-chapter-xvi/#comment-308770

        Relevant part of the comment…

        On September 25, 2015 at 2:31 pm, Gary Olson said…
        —————————————————————————-


        Now…lots of people have contacted me and have provided me with details pertaining to the GMIHC and they have requested to remain anonymous and I have religiously respected their anonymity and I will continue to do so.


        Some things are just too important in helping us understand why the GMIHC died for me to keep to myself. I checked the number of page viewers on this blog early last year and it was around 30,000 a day. I have checked it recently a couple of times and we are down to about 1200 or so per day. I don’t know how many of those are “unique” page viewers and how many of them are readers who may check the site 2 or 3 times a day to see if there is something new. JD probably does through his website statistical tracker, but in any case I think we are down to the hard core readers who really care about what happened on the Yarnell Hill Fire.

        These readers almost certainly include some of those who loved the GMIHC and wildland firefighters.

        And so, I want to make one thing perfectly clear from my perspective, which I have stated many times before, but it has been awhile since I have done so. Since you have been following this blog, or thread or experiment in social media, you have read references to many disaster fires that resulted in wildland firefighter fatalities. The Loop, the Battlement Creek, the Mann Gulch, the South Canyon, the Rattlesnake, the Thirtymile, the Esperanza and now the Twisp along with several others. All of these wildfires and so many more were deadly tragedies, and to some extent simply the cost of doing business in an inherently dangerous job. In fact, I believe that all wildfires with fatalities before and since the Yarnell Hill Fire fit statistically within firmly established and well known parameters.

        The mainstream media with their talking heads, politicians, civic leaders, the SAIT, the agencies involved, and many other people have tried to portray, and very successfully I might add, the Yarnell Hill Fire as being just one more disaster fire. A wildfire that although it was certainly tragic, it was just like all other disaster wildfires that came before it and can be explained away as “sometimes bad things happen to good people” and therefore, it was understandable and to some extent…acceptable. Let’s bury the dead, grieve for them, build a memorial to them and move on to the next one. This is all a big lie.

        The Yarnell Hill Fire and what happened to the Granite Mountain Interagency Hotshot Crew was not the result of just one more disaster fire that can be explained using any of the standard templates. Please let me make one thing perfectly clear…the Yarnell Hill Fire was off the fucking charts. All of them.
        ————————————————————————————-

        • Gary Olson says

          Part 1

          Yes, thank you WTKTT, that is the most recent one where I attempted to address the issue and I know there were many more way back at the beginning and those are going to be very hard to find they are so scattered.

          I actually wrote a chapter in my much awaited book…oh forget it, you already know the title of it and where you can download Chapter 1 for free. But I will take a shot at it right now because I just went and took a little nap.

          The Loop Fire of 1966 which resulted in deaths of 12 El Cariso Hotshots who were burned alive prompted the U.S. Forest Service to take a hard look for what I think was really only the second time with the

          THE FIRE SAFETY REVIEW TEAM
          MARCH 1967
          A PLAN TO FURTHER REDUCE
          THE CHANCES OF MEN BEING BURNED WHILE FIGHTING FIRES
          http://www.fireleadership.gov/toolbox/staffride/downloads/lsr1/lsr1_fire_safety_team.pdf

          The first time was with the Report of the Task Force to Recommend Action to Reduce the Chances of Men Being Killed by Burning While Fighting Fire, 1957.

          http://www.nafri.gov/sites/nafri.gov.testbed/files/attachments/Report_of_Fire_Task_Force_1957.pdf

          I think the Loop Fire occurred before fire behavior was accepted and studied as a science and before many of the current safety rules had been widely accepted by wildland firefighters. Although after reading what our esteemed hapless hero had to say on the subject it appears that he truly is a knuckle dragger in the truest sense of the word and evidence that Darwin’s Theory of Evolution is in fact seriously flawed. Although I still want to know who taught him to think, much less talk like that after what he went through.

          But to me, the real significance of the Loop Fire came when several other hotshot crews refused to carry out the assignment the El Cariso Hotshot Crew Boss ultimately agreed to do. Build hand fire line in a chute above an uncontrolled wildfire. So there is some good news there and some very bad news. The good news at least some people understood the basic concept of wildfire and how they burned, even if fire overhead was still in the mode of assigning crews to construct fire line in exactly the place where crews should not be working…as all of the readers of this blog know how to quickly recognize at this point.

          • Gary Olson says

            Part 2

            The next disaster fire involving hotshots was the Battlement Creek Fire of 1976. This fire burned when wildland firefighting safety was still in its infancy because we had not been trained in the use of fire shelters nor were we required to carry them even though the Chief of the Forest Service had ordered them to be carried by crews like ours and our sister crew, the Mormon Lake Hotshots on wildfires exactly like the Battlement Creek Fire.

            In addition, wildland firefighters were not even required to wear fire resistant trousers until after the Battlement Creek Fire even though they had been available for more than a decade and were discussed as being a good idea in the 1967 report to the Chief. It appears the primary reason for not requiring wildland firefighters to wear Nomex trousers was…the cost.

            http://www.fireleadership.gov/toolbox/staffride/library_staff_ride1.html

            And just like the Loop Fire there was some good news in terms of wildland firefighting safety during the Battlement Creek Fire and there was some very bad news. The good news was that the crew boss of the Mormon Lake Hotshots was able to recognize the danger of continuing to work on a fire line his crew had constructed by hand on a steep slope directly above a huge back fire that was racing towards his crew, so he sent most of them into the planned safety zone in time to avoid a disaster of the Yarnell Hill Fire proportions.

            http://www.fireleadership.gov/toolbox/staffride/library_staff_ride10.html

            The bad news is that the fire overhead had assigned his crew to work there in the first place and had assigned another hotshot crew, the Happy Jack Hotshots (my crew) to backfire below them. And the crew boss was carrying a burning desire deep down in his soul to prove that his brand new crew was better than anybody else, he was full of the can do spirit. And so he actually lobbied the Fire Boss and the Plans Chief to take on such a dangerous assignment to prove how good he and his crew actually were.

            More bad news came when the crew boss remained with a squad boss and two crewman to finish their assignment even after he sent the majority of the crew to safety. Three out of the four were burned alive and the fourth (the squad boss) were seriously burned while he and another crewman lay in the dirt without fire shelters while a fire much like the Yarnell Hill Fire burned over them. The fire burned on a much steeper slope and so it passed over them much quicker.

            As the back fire burned over them, the other crewman screamed, “I’M ON FIRE” and then he ran down into the flames. The crew boss screamed something the others could not understand and then he ran down into the flames. I listened on the fire net radio as the first overhead on the scene who arrived in a medevac helicopter discussed how to cut open the airway of the crewman (who remained with the squad boss) because his throat was so badly burned he could not breathe. He died in place a few minutes later.

            • Gary Olson says

              Part 3

              http://www.fireleadership.gov/toolbox/staffride/library_staff_ride9.html

              The South Canyon Fire Disaster happened while a squad (8 crewpersons and a squad boss who were all burned alive along with several others) of Prineville Hotshots, a gaggle smokejumpers from several different jump bases in several time zones, a couple of local helitack guys and a bunch other miscellaneous firefighters which included various low level local BLM employees, one of which was the incident commander for some of the decisions, some of the time, except when at least one smokejumper was the incident commander for some of the decisions, some of the time, and they were working on a steep slope above an uncontrolled wildfire.

              The only thing I have been able to figure out why they were all working above an uncontrolled wildfire was because the fire was a world class Cluster Fuck from day one and then it got worse as time went by. They didn’t even come up any new rules after South Canyon because they said, “Hey, we have already made more rules than anyone can remember now and these fucking firefighters are ignoring all of the ones we have already invented, so why should we dream up more?”

              Other than that, I’m going to blame what happened to the Prineville Hotshots on the fact that neither their crew boss nor their assistant crew boss was with them and therefore their command and control structure was broken down and they were subject to the miscellaneous whims of highly disorganized and fragmented local BLM district fire personnel and a gaggle of primadonnas who all either think they should be in charge or they want to go off and work by themselves while they do their own thing because nobody else is as good as they are, even though most of them are former hotshots.

              And then came the Yarnell Hill Fire of 2013…and the rest is wildland firefighting history.

              I have got a lot more to say on this subject, but you are going to have to wait until I get my book published because I am getting sleepy again.

              • Bob Powers says

                The Number One Big Difference.

                The GMIHS were not fighting fire on the Line They were Hiking
                Out. One of the Most Basic things you can do find a SAFE ROUTE and move to a new location.

                The Crew was in a Safety Zone (400 plus acres of Black) no reason to Move no mater what the Fire did they were SAFE.

                The other Fires the Crews were all working on the line.

                Hiking out or to an SZ.
                1. The Fire compromised the Look Out. and the Vehicles.
                2. The Fire crossed the Cat Line.
                3. The Fire Crossed the Retardant line.
                4. For all intent and purpose the Fire was below the crew.
                5. The Fastest route is not always the safest route.
                6. The Black was their best SZ.
                7. The Helms ranch SZ was in the worst place for them
                A. Down the mountain in front of a flaming front.
                B. 1.5 miles through 6 to 10 ft. brush.
                C. down a 2 track through the Same Brush.
                D. A predicted Wind change with 20 plus MPH it was
                already pushing east into Yarnell and there was a
                2 mile active fire front 3/4 of a mile from the crew.
                Those are all extreme warning signs that went unheeded by Marsh and Steed. The very basics of fire behavior and the 18 situations that shout watch out..

                The long safe routes were right their if they needed to get to town.
                1. Off the Back side into the dessert and out to the highway.
                2. Back through the Black and down into Yarnell.
                3. Wait out the run in the black and then hike out. chose your route.

                All of that screams why did they chose to do what they did they never had to challenge the Dragon.
                They had absolutely no reason to hike into a brush filled death trap, t hat a Hundred other HS crews would never have gone.
                At least in my day.

                • Marti Reed says

                  I’ll say Amen also.

                  Especially to the point that the GMHS were not actually fighting fire when they wound up getting burned over.

                  I appreciate your pointing that out and isolating it.

                  And, as I”m sitting here thinking about that, in comparison to a lot of other burnovers/near misses I’ve studied via LessonsLearned, I’m thinking there are quite a few in which other crews got trapped when they weren’t actually “fighting” a fire, also.

                  But I can’t think of a single one in which a crew left massive acres of safe black and walked, obviously, INTO a fire. I.e in the direction of where a fire was headed.

                  • Marti Reed says

                    Which is why I think that whatever happened at that descent point is truly critical. Possibly the most critical thing of all.

                    Given WTKTT’s video of that place at that time. It was positively ENGULFED in smoke

                    And, OK, I”m not a wildland firefighter, and I have no personal knowledge of this stuff. But over the past year, there have been videos released detailing the impacts of smoke on firefighter’s decision-making..

                    And they all talk about how massive carbon monoxide can really affect the brain and the ability to make accurate judgements and critical decisions.

                    I can’t imagine that wasn’t in play.

      • Marti Reed says

        Thank you, Gary, for your historical documentation of this (especially as it pertains to Hotshot crews).

        And, yes, as I read it I “got” and slightly LOLLED when I read your layering of it in Southwest Anthropological/Archaeological terms. It both made me feel “special” and made a lot of sense to me.

        And I also learned from how you wrote it.

        So I”ve had a wild day today, that actually started last night with my Mastercard being turned down, and finding that it was possibly stolen (which, given what we pinned down today, still doesn’t make any sense to me), and having to drive cross-town to get another one, while thinking “none of this makes any sense to me!!

        And I know right now, that there’s a whole bunch of conversation going on upstream that I haven’t even gotten to.

        The thing that is echoing in my mind is your saying that what makes this DIFFERENT is that you don’t don’t know WHY they died. I’m saying that this conversation is about WHY they died. I think I know WHY they died.

        What I am seeing, at this point, including what has been happening this year, is a whole bunch of doing unsafe things in order to save structures, with the corresponding HERO status they are getting for attempting to do that.

        • Gary Olson says

          Thank you, and yes, I did put some thought into regarding how I could make my response special, descriptive and helpful…just for you.

        • Gary Olson says

          I agree with you, but once again, I am trying to leave some wiggle room because I don’t have the proof yet. All of the evidence is compelling, but it circumstantial. Now, there is not necessarily anything wrong with that, the prisons are full of people who were put there by circumstantial evidence, but I would like to find a smoking gun if there is one.

    • Gary Olson says

      Let me try to answer your question one more time.

      The Yarnell Hill Fire is off the all of the known charts because of the following reasons;

      1. I know why 12 El Cariso Hotshots died on the Loop Fire of 1966.

      2. I know why 3 Mormon Lake Hotshots died on the Battlement Creek Fire of 1976.

      3. I know why 9 Prineville Hotshots died on the South Canyon Fire of 1994.

      4. I don’t know why 19 Granite Mountain Hotshots died on the Yarnell Hill Fire of 2013.

      • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

        Reply to Gary Olson post on October 6, 2015 at 1:49 am

        >> Gary Olson said…
        >>
        >> 4. I don’t know why 19 Granite Mountain Hotshots died on
        >> the Yarnell Hill Fire of 2013.

        Stay tuned. The odds in Vegas say it’s unlikely that the most HISTORIC ( so far ) one on the ( your ) list will be the one that remains ‘a total mystery’.

        History doesn’t like these kinds of mysteries.

        They tend to get ‘solved’… sooner or later.

  45. Gary Olson says

    A loyal reader sent me the following email that I need to share with you, whoever you are;

    “There is something I’d like to ask you about regarding the infamous Hail Mary plan.

    While there is at present no way of knowing who originally came up with it — whether it was Marsh, Cordes or Musser — I am curious to know what the implications are in the event it was Marsh who approached the others and lobbied for this plan as “doable.” Naturally, this is because I tend to think it actually was this way, since out of the three it was only Marsh who had the all-important view of the fire from high up on a mountain. It was Marsh who was already taking action on this apparent “plan” at the time GM was told to hunker and be safe. And, Marsh’s subsequent efforts to be evasive about what GM was doing indicates that neither Abel nor Musser had any knowledge that GM was leaving the black in accordance with any “plan.” (Not to mention that there’s not been anything substantial which definitively links Musser to ordering anything regarding this pure folly that’s been described as the Hail Mary plan.)

    If it actually was Marsh who approached Cordes and “possibly” Musser with how this plan had merit, and because these two were likely inclined to think the information coming from their Division A boss was reliable for the reason that they believed him to be both a qualified person with the needed expertise AND someone who could see the fire like they could not … and so they decided to make at least an “initial effort” or “first step” to begin on the Plan (before it promptly fell apart) ,,, then what are they really guilty of except listening to what their Division who boss told them when they had no way of knowing that this was someone who “never” should have had ANY lives entrusted to him .. much less 19.

    It is just a scenario that I find difficult to dismiss.”

    And I replied;

    “You asked “then what are they really guilty of except listening to what their Division boss who told them when they had no way of knowing that this was someone who “never” should have had ANY lives entrusted to him .. much less 19.”

    Absolutely NOTHING!

    This is just one of the reasons why I like hearing from you, as an highly intelligent and informed outsider, you have clarity on this disaster that I lack either because of my close association with the industry or my lack of intellect. In either case, this is my new position and I am going to beat on this drum from now on because it makes perfect sense. FYI – This is so important I am going to post it.

    And as an investigator, it never really mattered that I wasn’t the smartest guy in the room, I didn’t have to be. I just had to know how to find the smartest people in the room and then listen to them and then put it all together in a case report.

    Thank you.”

    • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

      Reply to Gary Olson post on October 5, 2015 at 12:15 pm

      >> Gary Olson said…
      >>
      >> “You asked “then what are they really guilty of except listening to
      >> what their Division boss who told them when they had no way of
      >> knowing that this was someone who “never” should have had ANY
      >> lives entrusted to him .. much less 19.”
      >>
      >> Absolutely NOTHING!

      I’m going to disagree with that.

      If they ( Operations Level Supervisors Todd Abel and Paul Musser ) did NOT know this ‘Hail Mary’ plan was ‘underway’… then they are at least guilty of not keeping their Division Level Supervisors under proper supervision and not knowing what the fuck he/they were doing.

      If they DID know about this ‘Hail Mary’ plan… then I believe they are guilty of simply not having the sense to ‘call it off’ because it was ‘too little, too late, too dangerous’.

      There are too many ‘bits and pieces’ of evidence on the table to believe that this ‘Hail Mary’ plan was NOT underway that afternoon.

      Way too many.

      Who was the original ‘author’ of it… and who got who else to be ‘on board’… remains a mystery but the compass needle only points in a finite number of directions.

      Remember…. we still have NO IDEA what the hell it was that DIVSA Marsh felt was so all-fired important circa 3:30 PM that he would request that Brian Friby drop everything was doing and eat dust and schlep all the way up to that anchor point for another ‘face-to-face’ at that critical time.

      Or why Brian Frisby would even consent to do so, at such a critical time.

      What could possibly have been so important ( circa 3:30 PM ) that Marsh couldn’t have just talked about it on the radio?

      It would seem that there must have been something Marsh felt Brian Frisby had to SEE from Marsh’s vantage point and that is why he was asking him to make that long trip all the way up to that ridge where Marsh was standing.

      Frisby never made it. That’s how bad the timing was.

      By the time Frisby even got halfway up there the fire was already moving south so quickly that it had chased Brendan off his lookout mound… and what was supposed to be a ‘face-to-face’ with Marsh ( for still-unknown reasons ) just turned into a rescue mission for Brendan McDonough.

      So whatever it was that Marsh wanted to ‘show’ Frisby… or talk to him about… Marsh knew that face-to-face was never going to happen at precisely 3:39 PM… when Frisby radioed Steed ( and Marsh ) to tell him he wasnt’ coming… and he was rescuing Brendan… and did Marsh want them ( Blue Ridge ) to move their vehicles to safety.

      It is still highly likely that what Marsh wanted to ‘show’ Frisby is that he thought he saw dozer line possibilities down there near Glen Ilah and that they should now focus on ‘that plan’ to try and at least keep the fire out of that community.

      That ‘plan’ could even have been what Marsh was actually referring to when we HEAR him ( with our own ears, thanks to Christopher MacKenzie ( Rest in peace ) ) saying to Steed…

      “I could just feel this comin’… ya know?”

      What Marsh might have meant was…

      “When I saw that thing turn south and blow through that retardant line… I knew we were going to have to end up trying to save some town today… in THIS burn cycle”.

      Whoever might have ‘authored’ the plan to try and find some way to cut emergency dozer line near Glen Ilah… SPGS1 Gary Cordes still had to be ‘in on it’ because Cordes was the one controlling the DOZER and its operator… Paul Morin.

      There is absolutely NO DOUBT that Gary Cordes KNEW those men were headed for the Boulder Springs Ranch. He was so sure of it that while the Shrine Road area was being evacuated he specifically told his TFLD(t) trainee Tyson Esquibel to send at least one engine to the Boulder Springs Ranch to make sure ‘Granite Mountain’ was getting out of there safely.

      Why, then, was SPGS1 Gary Cordes so SURE that’s where they were headed ( or, in his mind, probably already WERE )… when no one else seemed to know?

      Why, then, would TLFD(t) Tyson Esquibel consider this ‘order’ to send engines to the BSR so significant that he specifically mentions it his Unit Log… when SPGS1 Gary Cordes ( who actually gave Esquibel that order ) says absolutely NOTHING about it in HIS Unit Log… and also mentions NOTHING about this in EITHER of his official ‘interviews’? ( SAIT / ADOSH ).

      These are still important mysteries that need better answers.

      • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

        For anyone who might not have followed this discussion for awhile… it’s worth pointing out that one of the most IMPORTANT players in the story for that entire Sunday… Dozer operator Paul Morin… has STILL ( as far as we know ) never been interviewed by ANYONE and/or has never made a single comment associated with that fateful day.

        Dozer operator Paul Morin even ended up on the list of ‘missing persons’ that DPS Helicopter Ranger 58 was told to be ‘looking for’ as it took to the air trying to find the Granite Mountain Hotshots.

        There is still every chance in the world that dozer operator Paul Morin got ‘caught’ back there at the south end of the Sesame area and had to ‘ride out the burnonver’ in either glass-enclosed cab of the dozer or in the cab of his loboy trailer there at the south end of the Sesame area.

        We still don’t even know WHO actually ADDED dozer operator Paul Morin’s name to the list of ‘missing persons’ for Helicopter Ranger 58 before it even took to the air.

        Someone did.

        Someone who was respons