Chapter I, Chapter II, Chapter II supplement, Chapter III, Chapter IV, Chapter V, Chapter VI, Chapter VII, Chapter VIII , Chapter IX, Chapter X, Chapter XI, Chapter XII , Chapter XIII, Chapter XIV, Chapter XV, Chapter XVI, and Chapter XVII.
© Copyright 2015 John Dougherty, All rights Reserved. Written For: Investigative MEDIA
Please begin Chapter XIX.
As always… THANK YOU, John.
Direct link to the new Chapter XIX ( 19 ) is as follows…
http://www.investigativemedia.com/please-begin-yarnell-hill-fire-chapter-xix-here/
I think the GMH were set up and murdered. The city of Prescott was talking about doing away with the group weeks before. I was sent information that can prove this. Brendan was involved.
Robert the Second says
JANUARY 18, 2016 AT 7:31 PM
Marti,
Because so many here and elsewhere wanted so desperately to place blame on AZ State Forestry, the IMT’s, misc. WFF overhead, the WFF culture, Willis, the PFD, and many others.
Those two were the sole responsible parties.
And I say, “Wait just one cotton pickin’ minute here.”
I used to be a pretty good investigator. After all…Janet Napolitano did present me with a “Special Agent of The Year” award in 1996. I haven’t been hitting on all of my cylinders for a few years now, it’s not so much the years, it was all of the fucking MILES.
I knew Darrell Willis for years BEFORE the Yarnell Hill Fire. I was really tight with one of his very best buddies for decades. They are both hard core what…Christian Fundamentalists? I was an INSIDER once, as deep as any insider can get.
I know who you are RTS. Is there anybody in the entire fucking country who works is in the WFF/Industrial Complex who DOESN’T know who you are at this point, given all of the hints you have given out over the past 2 and a half years?
YOU are what…a Christian Fundamentalist as well (ya…no shit Sherlock)? How many fires have YOU been on with Willis. How many times have your prayed together? You still work in the WFF/Industrial Complex for your bread and butter. Or at least the jam you eat with your bread and butter. You are an apologist for Willis and THEM. Oh shit or dear! We do have one inside the wire! You can’t be trusted. You are a subversive! I have met the enemy and it is YOU!
I need to start paying closer attention regarding my situational awareness and watching my 6. Not every bad guy is going to give me 2 and half years to catch on to them…right? How embarrassing.
Of course you did point out a few months ago that we fought fire together on the Murdock Basin Fire and you fucked me over with a night shift because I was a gung ho can do MF! My crew will do whatever you need done, we are from the Mighty Coconino!
So…of course there is always that. I guess I already knew who you are. My how you have changed. So have I. I am not the same gung ho can do MF I used to be…I know now that many of our fire gods have feet of clay! I AM the bonafide REBEL now!
FYI – for you old timers out there. The Murdock Basin Fire was in the Wasatch Mountains on the Uinta-Wasatch-Cache National Forest in northern Utah. It was very cold. We got snowed in…in July. Ahhhh….memories.
please with sincerity wwtktt can you check your email on a private question-
I want to have it all printed to send tomorrow and you know how to do what I need and just need guidance for me to do the work…
Brian wants not home..try again soon.
**
** PRESCOTT CONSIDERS ‘SELLING’ GRANITE MOUNTAIN STATION 7 PROPERTY
The Prescott Daily Courier
Article Title: Prescott eyeing city-owned properties for ‘potential disposal’
Published: 1/11/2016 6:00:00 AM
http://dcourier.com/main.asp?SectionID=1&SubSectionID=1&ArticleID=153795
From the article…
——————————————————————————————
TOP PHOTO: Granite Mountain Station 7 ( Photo by Matt Hinshaw / The Daily Courier )
PHOTO CAPTION: Prescott Fire Department Station 7, where the Wildland Division and the Granite Mountain Hotshots were based, is one of the many properties the city of Prescott is looking into selling.
PRESCOTT – Nearly three-dozen city of Prescott-owned properties located all around the community are under consideration for sale or lease.
In a continuing effort to deal with the city’s budget-shortfall issues, the Prescott City Council heard a presentation Tuesday, Jan. 5, on a list of “holdings for potential disposal.”
Councilman Steve Blair suggested that the city should look further into the Prescott Fire Station No. 7 on Sixth Street (the wildland station, and the former home of the Granite Mountain Hotshots).
Noting that the station is “valuable commercial property,” Blair said the land (totaling about 1.3 acres) has the potential to help pay for the city’s unfunded obligations in the public-safety pension system (PSPRS).
The city eliminated the fire department’s wildland division this past year, after opting not to replace the Granite Mountain Hotshots crew, 19 of whom died fighting the Yarnell Hill wildfire in 2013.
Police Chief Dennis Light said on Wednesday, Jan. 6, that the Sixth Street wildland fire station currently is being used by the department’s remaining three full-time fuels-reduction employees, as well as about six variable-hour (temporary) employees.
——————————————————————————————
NOTE: The article incorrectly identifies ‘Dennis Light’ as the POLICE Chief of Prescott.
He is NOT. He is the (current) FIRE Chief. Dennis Light succeeded Dan Fraijo as Fire Chief when Fraijo was FIRED from that position just shortly after the Yarnell tragedy.
ALSO NOTE: Former Blue Ridge Hotshot Ronald Gamble is currently one of the 3 full-time fuels reduction employees referred to in the article above. Ronald Gamble’s ‘office’ is former GM Supertinendent Eric Marsh’s ‘office’ at Station 7.
Ronald Gamble is still accepted as the Blue Ridge Hotshot who shot the video with the filename YARNELL-GAMBLE at 4:27 PM in Yarnell, on June 30, 2013.
That’s the video that has the audio capture of Eric Marsh clearly reporting Granite Mountain’s ‘status’ ( to someone… still unidentified ) at 4:27 and saying (quote) “They’re coming from the heel of the fire”. The voice on the radio prior to Marsh’s response ( also still unidentified ) appears to have been urging Eric Marsh to “Hurry up and get to Yarnell”.
This clearly recorded conversation with Eric Marsh took place right in the middle of the 30 minute time period when the Arizona Forestry SAIT investigation team said there were NO verifiable direct communications with Eric Marsh or Granite Mountain.
Ronald Gamble left the Blue Ridge Hotshots and went to work for the City of Prescott just a few months following the June 30, 2013 tragedy in Yarnell.
Followup…
Blue Ridge Hotshot Ronald Gamble was never INTERVIEWED by ANYONE… even though the SAIT had that video in their possession long before their report came out.
And that specific video was WITHHELD from Arizona State ADOSH investigators, even though there was a specific Inter-AGency FOIA request from ADOSH for (quote) “ALL materials in the SAIT’s possession related to their Yarnell Hill Investigation”.
So Mike Dudley and Jim Karels SUCCEDED in making sure ADOSH never even knew to TRY and request a specific interview with the person who supposedly shot that YARNELL-GAMBLE video with Eric Marsh’s voice in it.
I STILL think someone should just waltz over to ‘Station 7’ ( before Prescott sells it )… and ask Ronald Gamble one simple question…
“Hey Ronnie… do you happen to remember WHO Eric Marsh felt compelled to report Granite Mountain’s ‘travel status’ TO when you were shooting that video at 4:27 PM?”
CALL SIGN?, perhaps?
**
** DAN SULLIVAN POSSIBLY SEEN IN THE TOM STORY PHOTOS
** STANDING NEXT TO THE AMBULANCE
New public video is online…
http://youtu.be/27EPGgtLK7g
YouTube ‘About’ information…
—————————————————————
Various photos of Dan Sullivan, who was hired to be an ASGS at the Yarnell Hill Fire on June 30, 2013… including photos of the all-aquamarine ‘Prescott National Forest’ 4-door vehicle he was supposedly driving that day, and some photos of him (perhaps) standing near an ambulance in the Ranch House Restaurant parking lot.
—————————————————————
In the very first photo that Tom Story took after moving to the BACK of the Ranch House Restaurant parking lot… there is a fairly CLEAR profile view of a man in a ‘ball cap’ with a very neatly trimmed ‘triangular’ beard standing right next to the AMBULANCE on the left-side of the photograph.
Basically just underneath ( and a little to the right ) of the back ‘light’ on the top side of the AMBULANCE.
We can see him from about the waist up… facing to the front of the ambulance, with his head, shoulders ball cap and beard framed against the WHITE background and the LOGO of the AMBULANCE itself.
NOTE: The very ‘point’ of what appears to be his ‘beard’ is actually just part of the background ambulance logo. He does appear to have a ‘triangular’ shaped beard, as Bryan Smith described, but it wasn’t as ‘pointy’ as this photo seems to suggest.
He is NOT wearing a yellow Nomex shirt. Looks more like a very dark grey or dark navy-blue button-down, short-sleeve shirt with a collar, or a Blue T-Shirt with some kind of ‘vest’ over it… just as we see Dan Sullivan wearing in the 2014 Assayii Fire briefing video.
He looks VERY much like the man Bryan Smith has been describing as the one who ‘saved’ him and his cousin Pearl Moore that afternoon, and ( according to Bryan ) saw that they got into an AMBULANCE.
Based on the known timing, it is *possible* that Bryan Smith and Pearl Moore are actually inside the ambulance at the time these Tom Story photos were taken.
That Tom Story photo has a filename of…
201303_Yarnell_Hill_1692.jpg ( Time taken: 5:11:26 PM, 6/30/13 ).
3 seconds after taking this photo… Tom Story then took 10 ( TEN ) more photos from that same location at the back of the RHR parking lot, all within a time span of only 42 seconds, with the final photo of that sequence taken at 5:12:08 PM.
For the next 7 ( SEVEN ) photos… the man with the ball cap and the triangular beard is still there, standing alongside the AMBULANCE, but we can only see his ball cap because other FFs are now standing in front of him…
201303_Yarnell_Hill_1693.jpg ( Time taken: 5:11:29 PM, 6/30/13 )
201303_Yarnell_Hill_1694.jpg ( Time taken: 5:11:30 PM, 6/30/13 )
201303_Yarnell_Hill_1695.jpg ( Time taken: 5:11:31 PM, 6/30/13 )
201303_Yarnell_Hill_1696.jpg ( Time taken: 5:11:41 PM, 6/30/13 )
201303_Yarnell_Hill_1697.jpg ( Time taken: 5:11:47 PM, 6/30/13 )
201303_Yarnell_Hill_1698.jpg ( Time taken: 5:11:48 PM, 6/30/13 )
201303_Yarnell_Hill_1699.jpg ( Time taken: 5:11:49 PM, 6/30/13 )
By the time we reach Tom Story photo 201303_Yanrell_Hill_1700.jpg, taken at 5:12:01 PM, the man with the ball cap and triangular beard is now standing at the REAR of the ambulance, just to the left of one of the open ambulance back doors.
His head, ball cap and face are now seen again just over the spare tire that is sitting in the back of the red-with-white-stripes ‘Sun City West Fire’ engine in the foreground of the photo.
SIDENOTE: This is also the Tom Story photo that appears to capture OPS1 Todd Abel, and his large ‘handlebar mustache’ walking towards the ‘Sun City West’ engine in the foreground, and coming towards the camera in-between the ambulance and that ‘Sun City West’ engine. He is wearing a yellow helmet, black T-shirt, and yellow Nomex shirt.
The man with the ball cap and triangular beard remains there, at the back of the ambulance… for the final two Tom Story photos taken in this same timeframe in the RHR parking lot…
201303_Yarnell_Hill_1701.jpg ( Time taken: 5:12:07 PM, 6/30/13 )
201303_Yarnell_Hill_1702.jpg ( Time taken: 5:12:08 PM, 6/30/13 )
…but that ‘spare tire’ in the back of the ‘Sun City West’ engine in the foregound obscures his face and beard in those final two photos. All we can see is the top of his ball cap in those last two Tom Story photos.
There is no ‘proof’ this is the same man that Bryan Smith described as ‘saving’ him and Pearl Moore that afternoon, but it’s curious that we now see someone matching Bryan Smith’s exact description of that man standing right near that ambulance that ( at the time these Tom Story photos were taken ) very likely already had Bryan and Pearl inside of it.
Where are we trying to go? What are we trying to do?
I really don’t know anymore.
Eric Marsh and Jesse Steed are responsible for the deaths of themselves and their crew.
Got that. I think we’ve pretty well nailed that.
Does anything else really matter?
If so, what is that? ‘And why?
Why are we still here, arguing?
Sorry Marti
In the Fire world I don’t think so.
We were all looking for a reason other than the crew.
Their may be other factors but I and most of my old friends from the Wild Land Fire Fighters have all concluded Marsh and Steed made the Fatal decisions.
The Granit Mountain Hot Shots had some serious internal problems all of which
set off a final chain reaction. No single factor was responsible.
The overhead as well had their problems but they did not cause the crew to walk into that brush filled canyon. They did that on their own.
There are some hidden pieces to the story but they wont change who is at fault here. In reality their is a lot of blame to go around. Responsibility is the real burden and it rest in one place.
.
I believe we have identified the primary factors in the deaths of the GMIHC and we have identified many of the contributing factors.
Other than that, I think we are in a holding pattern while we wait for additional information because many of us don’t want to quit while there are still unanswered questions and unknown factors.
We can’t make that happen, we just have to do what we can in the meantime and be patient until something breaks that information loose from those that have it..
I have learned a great deal throughout this process about myself, the world of wildland firefighters. life and death. the world in general which certainly includes some interesting people and their ideas.
So…I am pretty happy with the results all things considered and it might even get better and I might learn a lot more before it is finally over. I will continue to take breaks for my mental health and I suggest everyone else to the same….except for WTKTT because he is our robo blogger.
Marti,
Because so many here and elsewhere wanted so desperately to place blame on AZ State Forestry, the IMT’s, misc. WFF overhead, the WFF culture, Willis, the PFD, and many others.
Those two were the sole responsible parties.
I agree except for the 49% that belongs to their sending unit. Although I will agree that I am trying to thread the needle with a very nuanced argument that the City of Prescott has shared responsibility for this disaster because of all of the reasons I have been identifying for years now at this point.
The GMIHC had the overwhelming burden of trying to manage the fact that they were a hybrid crew sponsored by a town that lacked the organizational, management, and fiscal resources to give them the support network every hotshot crew relies to function proficiently in challenging situations and environments.
All we have to do is look at the evidence that has always been right in front of us. There were 2 hotshot crews on the Yarnell Hill Fire. These crews were basically working in the same area (it wasn’t a very big wildfire) with similar responsibilities.
The federal hotshot crew withdrew to a rally point to regroup and “sit on their asses” as WTKTT is so fond of saying, and the hotshot crew sponsored by a small town structural fire department whose jobs were on the city bean counters chopping block and who were under enormous pressure to “save ” the Wildland Fire Division” while being led by a man who was fixated on the bizzaro world philosophy to “risk a lot to save a lot” and who thinks the preferred course of action for wildland firefighting hand crews to run into burning buildings took extraordinary and to date inexplicable measures to beat the fire front to town in order to reengage the in some secret Hail Mary Plan by marching DOWN INTO A BRUSH CHOKED DEATH CHUTE DIRECTLY INTO THE PATH OF A FIRESTORM OF BIBLICAL PROPORTIONS EVERYBODY COULD SEE COMING and had actually been forecast hours earlier by weather experts who said the fire would do exactly what it did, when they said it would do it!
Why are we still arguing about this? What don’t YOU PEOPLE get!.
And the rest is wildland firefighting history…2 + 2 = 4 Duhhhhhhhhhhhh!
NUANCED ARGUMENT MY ASS! MY ARGUMENT IS ABOUT AS NUANCED AS A BATTLE FORMATION OF M1A ABRAMS TANKS!
In other words, it is not hard to see or understand…just open your eyes and take a peek.
There has been so much time pass and so many examples have gone by I can’t even remember all of them. For example, here’s one. I said more than 2 years ago that if I would have gotten an employee appraisal like Eric Marsh got from Darrell Willis…I would have been looking for another job because I would have felt like I had one foot out the door and the other one on a banana peel (one of my BLM mis-managers actually used that line on me which once prompted me to go to the USDI OIG ASAP with my case report on HIM…he lost).
There was one problem with that idea that we didn’t know at the time, Eric Marsh was ALREADY on his second act after getting the USFS Globe Hotshots sent home from the Clear Creek Fire in Idaho for smoking pot and drinking alcohol on the fire line with a bunch of crewmen which included the saw team when he was on detail as an acting squad boss. Where was he going to go next? Willis was already on his behind because he wouldn’t sign off on the falsified and bogus hotshot crew certification!
Marsh was put in a position (and he put himself in a position) that he had two choices;
1. Meet the expectations of Willis and the City of Prescott Fathers and stay in line to be the next Wildlands Division Chief at more than $90,000 a year by amping up to meet or exceed the revenue neutral criteria and double down on their recent Doce Fire home town hero status; OR
2. Walk down the White Spar Highway (SR 89) kicking a can.after he left Willis’ office because he just got FIRED and replaced by the Magnificent Everybody Just LOVES working with and for Jesse The Greek God Steed!
Hmmmmm, We are going to have to bring Captain OBVIOUS in on this one.
In the meantime….which one do you think Eric Marsh choose on the Yarnell Hill Fire for his future?
Vote early and vote often!
Oh and a couple of more things.
1. WTKTT – I just can’t get excited about joining you on your elaborate and carefully crafted and coreographed chronilogical, laborious and very detailed effort to indict the entire wildland firefighting community at the national level for total and complete incompetence at every level and by every standard.
2. Marti – I’m sorry but I can’t join you in fixing everything that is wrong with the entire wildland firefighting community at the national level as we move on to dissect the Twisp Fire and all of the fires that have been bungled since the Yarnell Hill Fire.
Because….I CAN’T EVEN FIND OUT WHAT WAS SO FUCKING IMPORTANT THAT MADE THE GMIHC LEAVE HUNDREDS OF ACRES OF SAFE BLACK WHILE AT THE SAME TIME THE OTHER HOTSHOT CREW ON THE YARNELL HILL FIRE WAS MAKING A TACTICAL WITHDRAWAL TO REGROUP AND AWAIT FURTHER ORDERS TO A SAFETY ZONE THAT WAS NOT NEARLY AS SAFE AS THE ONE THE GMIHS LEFT…WILLINGLY! ALL BECAUSE THE FIRE WAS GOING TO HELL IN A HAND BASKET….AND NOW THAT I THINK ABOUT IT, THE YARNELL HILL FIRE HAD ALREADY DONE GONE TO HELL IN A HAND BASKET AND ALL THAT WAS LEFT TO DO WAS PICK UP THE PIECES OF WHAT WAS LEFT!
I was a hotshot crew boss on 2 National Forests for 7 years in hyper hotshot programs on steroids (one I inherited and one I built from scratch) where risk takers and the very boldest were admired and rewarded.
And I either managed to always choose wisely or recover from my fuck-ups so I get to sit here an judge Eric Marsh…but you know (rhetorical question) what?
I was never faced with the choice Eric Marsh had to make on the Yarnell Hill Fire…either double down on what had gotten him that far and win big…or play it safe and stay in the black and lose big.
I can’t honestly say what I would have done if I would have been him that day…and you can’t say for certain what YOU would have done either.
Especially since Marsh had a track record of…how does that go RTS? Prior piss poor decisions with good outcomes?
Fuck it! Roll the flaming dice! That was the logo for Granite Mountain 7…right?
And I have got to say it even though it even though it is so trite…they rolled the dice and came up with Snake Eyes!
How prophetic was that logo? I think I will put a pair of flaming dice (showing a 4 and a 3 or was it a 5 and a 2?) on the cover of the book I will never finish…”The Rise of the Hybrid Firefighter and the True Story of the Yarnell Hill Fire Disaster”
Wait…what about the crew? Where did they fit into the machinations of this…abortion of a telenovela without the sex…I think, but with plenty of power grabbing bureaucrats?
They were pawns (I was on my high school chess team) and in the end collateral damage as one old man struggled to hang on to his Golden Parachute as the King of Double Dippers with all of that federal fire pay and one middle aged man’s blind ambition to outlive the seriously flawed decisions he had made as a slightly younger middle aged man plus one Greek God (who unfortunately for 17 young men who were just starting out in their adult lives) had trained as a Marine and had been indoctrinated into the GMIHC culture of black and white tiles who simply wanted to provide for his young family by replacing the middle aged man after he finally got the old man’s job after the old guy had finally gotten his fill at the City of Prescott trough.
You couldn’t make this stuff up. And if you did, you would be accused of creating an over- the- top story line.
May God Bless America!
And here is where Bob (God Bless You) and RTS….OK, may God Bless You As Well get to jump in and say with all of the sanctimonious bluster you can manage….I KNOW WHAT I WOULD HAVE DONE….I WOULD HAVE FOLLOWED THE 10 AND THE 18 PLUS MY LCES TO THE LETTER OF THE LAW….I TELL YOU….TO THE VERY LETTER OF THE LAW!
You didn’t read the fine print in this game. You have to put yourselves in the same position Eric Marsh and Jesse Steed were in, without the benefit of everything you had going for you in your careers. The CULTURE and the HISTORY of the Silver Backed Mountain Gorillas Tribe you belonged to and without the all of the management, organizational and fiscal resources and structure that supported you!
And did I mention the CULTURE and the HISTORY of the organization that both of you benefited greatly from. The organization that gave you the cornerstone and the solid footings from which you able to built your careers upon?
Huh? How about that?
Whoops!
I forgot the MOST IMPORTANT one,TRADITION! All three of us benefited from the rich CULTURE, HISTORY and most of all the deep TRADITION of the finest and most professional wildland firefighting organization the world has ever….or will ever see!
Perfect…WTKTT and Marti?
Not by a long shot, but they are still the best we have or ever will have…deal with it.
Unfortunately….the gene pool was forever diluted and tainted by the mad scientist experiment known as ICS with all of the cross breeding with structural FIREMEN, followed by inbreeding and subsequent unholy mutations!
You young wippersnappers will never see the Glory that my old eyes have seen! Pity.
Double Whoops!
Forgot to name the magnificent organization I am speaking of…The USDA – Forest Service.
Oh…and one more thing.
I am pretty sure my book IS finally finished. You just have to sort through 18 Chapters of other stuff and piece my chapters together to be able to read it since I think I just finished the very last chapter except for a addendum that will finally discuss what part exactly the GMIHC was to play in the poorly conceived and that someone attempted to execute shortly before resigning themselves to the fact they were going to have to order a gross of body bags for all of the elderly citizens everybody thought were for sure piled up in the smoldering ruins of Yarnell and Glen Isla because the evacuation was handled so poorly…or not at all.
You stupid fucks really dodged the bullet (actually a whole bunch of bullets on that one). Giving Gary Cordes an award for that disaster is kind of like giving the Captain of the Titanic and award for dodging ice bergs..
That photo with Tony Sciacca and Cordes grinning from ear to ear is enough to make me throw up a little bit in my mouth.
You don’t get to say “Gee, the wildfire exponentially outperformed all of our expectations” when hundreds of lives are on the line.
OK Sonny and Joy….that was a big finish for me and I said something positive and supportive of all of the Good Citizens of Yarnell and it’s burbs.
Marti Said
>Where are we trying to go? What are we trying to do?
>
>I really don’t know anymore.
Marti, well…..I think we’re trying to get publicity…. for Truth.
…based on what has been discovered here, there is a public announcement, or mainstream media pick up that the official investigations (SAIT/ADOSH) into the Yarnell Hill Fire missed the mark and new ones need to be setup to bring daylight to the truth.
I’m guessing what we don’t want is recognition as individuals – this is not a “Fame” game, we’re not after awards (they could quite easliy be awarded to the wrong people!!!!), I’m not even sure we want recognition that we’ve seen the truth because it clearly hit us in the face everytime we actually looked at the evidence – that’s just standard stuff that anyone with a bit of common could do.
At the moment, we’re clinging to every new insight or lead, especially when it can be shown a bus can be driven through SAIT/ADOSH because of the new evidence, and it ultimately discredits SAIT/ADOSH. Each time we hope that mainstream media will say “Oh Gosh – all that stuff we printed way-back-when was garbage, and fed to us, and Jimminy Cricket – it wasn’t the truth. Lets get to the bottom of this, get through the cover up, and bring the truth to the public.”
While the Yarnell Hill Fire was devastating and tragic to a lot of people, Watergate this ain’t! We (and the avid silent listeners-in to this campfire) are the only ones still interested in “The Truth”, some are probably listening here to see how close they are to being “outed” (and they should be worried – because this group has a habit of callin’ folks out on their lies), I hope most are probably listening silently, wanting the truth to be brought out.
So there we are…. waiting for the day all the lies and BS is cut through, the Truth is out and everyone ELSE knows and accepts what really happens. AND SOMEONE IN WFF TAKES NOTE AND DOES EVERYTHING THEY CAN TO PREVENT IT HAPPENING AGAIN!
of course I could be wrong, we all have our own reasons and drivers for participating here.
Hopefully you read the above from Gary. The things I have said and the things RTS has said.
Reflect on fire seasons 2014 and 2015.
Over 100 IR Hot Shot Crews No Burn overs No deployments.
The lessons have already been learned and refresher training on.
The 10 Standard Orders
The 18 situations that shout watch out.
The lessons learned was the Failure to follow them by GMIHS.
Yes Gary even in my day you had the right to refuse a order if it violated any of the above. The LOOP FIRE Two Hotshot crews refused to do what gung-ho King did with ElCariso and he was right there with the other two Superintendents.
They were not chastised for refusal 1966. Hot shot crews and even some Crew Bosses have been refusing assignments for years. Yes I would have stayed in the Black Putting my entire crew in danger for a promotion was not in my thought pattern, Never was for any reason Yes I was a hard head when it came to safety.
I am posting this to push back against the steady and incessant drum beat to blame the GMIHC for their own deaths and no one else.
I made my bones on this thread by blaming Willis (or someone else in authority) who ordered, advised, requested or simply EXPECTED Granite Mountain to risk a lot in order to try and save a lot and the city fathers who had put them under a cost cutting microscope and thereby created undue stress on Marsh to produce unrealistic results to be revenue neutral AND be home town heroes at the same time with more expected from them the next time every time the deliver the goods the last time. I have since modified that to admit the yes, it was mostly Eric Marsh’s fault but I would still score the tragedy this way…if I was a GOD (with that power)!
Eric Marsh – 51%
Jesse Steed – Pass (Not logical, but I am deciding this as if I am a GOD, so deal with it)
Squad Bosses – 0
Crewmen – 0
Fire Team – 0
Willis, unknown person(s), City of Prescott (Mayor and City Council) and the culture and expectations of the PFD – 49%
I am also going to push back on what I consider to be a misleading theory that GOD was involved in tragedy by taking direct action, specifically in the areas of free will or master planning. I am going to take this plunge even though I fully aware that I am not qualified by any measure to engage in a theological discussion beyond the very basics.
Question
I type:
dmgugynmedmdchdbevwjdkltlh,mshjsgejrfkg,f.b,cnzm/f.rfkgtjgnrf,e/.kxbVBHm33u5mgoou84jnrkg,
Is it part of God’s Plan and my free will that…
1. I am here on this earth?
2. I am here on this earth and able to type?
3. I am here on this earth and able to type on this blog?
4. I am here on this earth and able to type on this blog these characters dmgugynmedmdchdbevwjdkltlh,mshjsgejrfkg,f.b,cnzm/f.rfkgtjgnrf,e/.kxbVBHm33u5mgoou84jnrkg,
5. I am here on this earth and able to type on this blog these characters dmgugynmedmdchdbevwjdkltlh,mshjsgejrfkg,f.b,cnzm/f.rfkgtjgnrf,e/.kxbVBHm33u5mgoou84jnrkg, in this specific order?
6. I am here on this earth and able to type on this blog these characters dmgugynmedmdchdbevwjdkltlh,mshjsgejrfkg,f.b,cnzm/f.rfkgtjgnrf,e/.kxbVBHm33u5mgoou84jnrkg, in this specific order at this exact moment in time (5:11 PM PST on Saturday, January 16)?
7. I am here on this earth and able to type on this blog these characters dmgugynmedmdchdbevwjdkltlh,mshjsgejrfkg,f.b,cnzm/f.rfkgtjgnrf,e/.kxbVBHm33u5mgoou84jnrkg, in this specific order at this exact moment in time once again (5:13 PM PST on Saturday, January 16)?
8. And now stop typing those specific characters in that order ever again for the rest of my life? Just how far down into the weeds does your God get in taking direct action on everything I do?
I always shake my head in disgust every time someone in Tornado Alley stands in front of the rubble of their neighbors houses and gives thanks to God for saving them from disaster because God loves them and has special plans for them in the future while glossing over the fact that the tornado killed an entire family next door to them.
What…God didn’t love their neighbor or have any plans for them in the future? God didn’t have plans for even the babies or the 10 year child who was killed on their birthday?
Wait…I know! God moves in mysterious ways and it is not our place to know or understand his ultimate plan for the family that was spared or the family that was killed. God loved them equally, he just had varied plans for each of those either spared or killed and somehow grouped them together to all either live or die within that specific event and at that specific time and place?
FYI – My God just doesn’t get that involved in everything I or anyone else does. I believe that some things just happen randomly, good, bad and indifferent, without any particular reason and therefore without those things being part of any specific plan.
Whoops forgot some..
State of Arizona, Division of Forestry – 0
CHAOS – 0
Both of these forces get zero, because both of them were doing what they do, and have always done in similar circumstances and will do TOMORROW (and always) if given the chance and that is why it is so important that highly qualified, experienced and competent leaders make correct decisions for those under their command for the right reasons.
“State of Arizona, Division of Forestry – 0”
Although I agree with you on everything else, I’m not quite ready to cede this one, altogether. Especially after the deaths on the Twisp River Fire this summer.
I do believe that if we are going to get at Lessons Learned, in order to minimize the deaths on wildland fires threatening the Wildland Urban Interface Zone, we need to look at the thinking and strategizing on the overhead level.
We still don’t know if there was any kind of influence exerted on or agreed to with Eric Marsh to bring that crew down to “protect structures” in Glen Illah, via the Hail Mary Plan (that we do know,now, existed), all things considered.
Wildland firefighters are getting killed and burned in the WUI more than structural firefighters are.
Shouldn’t asking about whether, maybe, the human factors issues (including the institutional ones) on this fire were in play regarding this, on the management level, be pursued, rather than just accepting “State of Arizona, Division of Forestry – 0”?
And to add to that.
Maybe I’m too much of a Tony Sciacca fan. But he managed the Slide Fire with a number one priority of making sure that the wildland firefighters went home alive, imho.
And I believe (although I have no “proof” to defend that) that he may very well have done that with the Yarnell Fire in mind.
And I really believe that had he arrived at the Yarnell Fire much earlier than he did (thanks to the screw-ups in the dispatching system), we would not be still talking about this because he would have intervened on the GMHS’ ill-fated plan, as well as some other stuff.
Maybe I’m just crazy or idealistic or something, but it seems to me that how a fire is managed by the organization that is managing it matters.
You seem to be saying it doesn’t.
““State of Arizona, Division of Forestry – 0″
I give State of Arizona Division of Forestry at least a 50 for,(in order to save money, dispatching a Type 2 Short Team that didn’t have enough resources, so the Incident Commander spent Sunday plugging in his holes instead of managing his fire), under-resourcing this fire, and then losing it. With the consequences we are still talking about.
Marti,
This situation reminds me of the old joke, “I have taught you everything I know and still you don’t know anything.”
Seriously folks….you really don’t “get” the relationship between ALL overhead and a hotshot crew boss. When it comes to the safety of your crew NO overhead matter, and NOTHING they say and NOTHING they do (short of direct action like starting a back fire below your position) can endanger your crew.
The only thing that can endanger your crew is how you (as the hotshot crew boss) react to anything, any overhead say’s (orders) does. Every hotshot crew boss starts with the assumption that all overhead are idiots who are motivated by factors other than the safety of your crew and then you slowly build from that position.
I wrote about me being sent home from the Scott Fire because the sector boss who was then followed and supported by the line boss when all of them gave me a direct order that was counter to the best interests of my crew and that was back in the day before the turn down protocols.
And then the crew (Santa Fe) was sent home with me after they threw spit cups, soda cans and half eaten fruit and sandwiches at the sector boss when he gave the same order to the crew after I had been relieved of my command.
No overhead can put your crew at risk unless you empower them do do so. The key is to never empower them to be able to do that.
The same thing goes for CHAOS, Arizona State Forestry, the BLM, and every other Tom, Dick and Harry meets Sally…nobody has that power unless you give it to them and if you do….then it is on YOU as the hotshot crew boss.
It is the job of the sending unit (in the case of the USFS…a District FMO who supervises the hotshot crew boss to know he or she will have their backing if they do the right thing for their crew) and that is what empowers the crew boss to do the right thing.
If I hotshot crew boss does the right thing and has the backing of their sending unit, the very worst anybody can do to hurt them is to send them home from a fire and if that happens, that is probably a good thing because the management of the fire is really going south.
The worst thing an incompetent fire team, the State of Arizona (and lots of other underfunded state fire management agencies) the BLM, CHAOS can to to you is kill you AND YOUR CREW!
Choose wisely and then live long and prosper.
Say Hell Ya—Give me a Amen I say a AMEN………….
Thanks Gary, well said. I’m going to expand on that some.
WFF’s talk of the IC being the most powerful entity in the WF world. Yes, they are in a way, however, I feel the ‘old school’ Hot Shot Crew Superintendent is by far THE most powerful being in the WF world.
And the GOOD Hot Shot Crew is one of the most powerful and effective WF resources in the world, and fits in well with the other ‘Best Bang’ For Your Federal Tax Dollar’ entities (NOT in any particular order) along with the Navy Seals, the Army Rangers, the Air Force Para-rescue (PJ) and Combat Control forces, the U.S. Marines, the National Weather Service, the General Accountability Office, and others. However, the GMHS would have some overhead questioning the above knowledge, skills, and abilities of Hot Shot Crews.
Even though the HS Supts. are qualified at the TFLD and/or DIVS level, they think like and manage like an Operations Section Chief (OPS). They are USUALLY very well experienced and fir into the Type A category, open and unafraid of most anything (in the WF world), and very opinionated. In MOST cases they ALREADY have ‘The Plan’ in their head of what NEEDS to be done on/with the fire.
In Southern California, on FEDERAL wildfires, the Resources are directed in their IAP’s (Incident Action Plan) to report to a Drop Point (DP) to gather and meet with overhead to come up with ‘The Plan’ for the operational period.
The Hot Shot Crew Superintendents already have ‘The Plan’ worked out from the HS Crew overhead scouting and planning and such. They present it to the DIVS and the DIVS then presents it to the Branch Director for approval. It works slightly similar in other Regions.
And their Crew overhead (Assistant, Squad Bosses, Senior Crewmembers, and even some Crewmembers) are MUCH MORE QUALIFIED, and certainly experienced, than MOST WF overheard on the IMT’s and as Single Resource Overhead that fill in on IMT’s as seen on the YH Fire.
Sometimes though, it is a ‘Love/Hate’ relationship with Hot Shot Crews and IMT’s. ‘They’ love you when ‘they’ need you and after that, you are a pain in their ass. And they usually have the most personnel issues with time and travel and disciplinary, etc. Understandable
IMT’s and IC’s USUALLY know and appreciate them for what they are; a highly sought after, SAFE, highly skilled, self-sufficient firefighting machine, complete with their own overhead. Not all Hot Shot Crews are created equal. as we know from the YH Fire.
Without Hot Shot Crews fighting fire in the United States, there would be death and destruction in the wildlands and especially in the WUI, and mayhem would abound; whole towns would burn.
Gary,
I believe that it was mostly Jesse Steed’s fault because he was the Acting GMHS Superintendent with the ultimate responsibility for the GMHS safety and welfare NO MATTER WHAT ELSE CAME TO BE! NO MATTER THEIR AGENCY, THEIR BOSS, THEIR DEPARTMENT, THEIR PROPOSED BUDGET, THE WEATHER, THE WFF CULTURE, NO MATTER WHAT!
THE GMHS OVERHEAD KNEW BETTER or SHOULD HAVE KNOWN BETTER TO FOLLOW THE WFF RULES AND STAY PUT IN THEIR PERFECTLY GOOD SAFETY ZONE the afternoon of 30 June 2013. NO MATTER WHAT!
Here’s how I would rate the GMHS fatalities:
Jesse Steed – 50%
Eric Marsh – 20%
Squad Bosses – 10%
Crewmen – 10%
Fire Team – 0
Willis, unknown person(s), City of Prescott (Mayor and City Council) and the culture and expectations of the PFD – 10%
State of Arizona, Division of Forestry – 0
CHAOS – 0
God is in control. He is the Creator and God of the Universe. ALL things happen because He allows them to happen, YET He gives us FREE WILL AND FREE CHOICE to either follow His Will or ignore His Will and follow our own.
I too am amazed and at the same time somewhat in awe every time someone in Tornado Alley stands in front of the rubble of their neighbors houses and gives thanks to God for saving them from disaster because God loves them and has special plans for them in the future. How do you know they are glossing over the fact that the tornado killed an entire family next door to them? It may be that they know and accept that God saved them yet allowed the family next door to die.
God loved their neighbor as much as them yet He had other plans for them in the future. God did have plans for even the babies or the 10 year child who was killed on their birthday because He allowed it. This goes on every day throughout the world as well as incredible blessings of friendship and life and healing and peace and so much more. God tells us in 1 Thessalonians 5:18,: “… in everything give thanks; for this is the will of God in Christ Jesus for you.”
Yes, God does move in mysterious ways and it is not our place to know or understand His ultimate plan for the family that was spared or the family that was killed. God loved them equally, He just had varied plans for each of those either spared or killed and somehow grouped them together to all either live or die within that specific event and at that specific time and place.
FYI – My God DOES get that involved in everything I or anyone else does. I believe that He is in control of all things. I do NOT believe that some things just happen randomly, good, bad and indifferent, without any particular reason and therefore without those things being part of any specific plan.
RTS said: God is in control. He is the Creator and God of the Universe. ALL things happen because He allows them to happen, YET He gives us FREE WILL AND FREE CHOICE to either follow His Will or ignore His Will and follow our own.
Did you mean follow Willis or His will RPS..
Still think God had no will in this thing–What it does do is to give future fire fighters an example not to follow. I was there that day, and even an idiot could see that the best plan wound not to in any way, shape or form get yourself trapped in some manzanita with the fire already uncontrollable.
I can see that talking here on this site will never help people understand well enough–especially if you are to be in the wild fire fighting business. The worse possible thing is to restrict that area from fire fighters and future fighters to enter the area. Unless you wear the boots of those men by walking their actual path and seeing what they saw and their vantage points you never get the feel of what actually went down. In my estimation it is a gross error to shut people out. To go there should almost be a mandatory thing for young firefighters. There is just too much to learn from the mistakes they made that day–For certain lives would be saved by the education from such a hike. For that is more than a hike, it is a solemn and tearful journey that those brave and lost souls would want every one of their fellow fire fighters of the world to take.
Sonny,
You posted: “and even an idiot could see that the best plan [would] not to in any way, shape or form get yourself trapped in some manzanita with the fire already uncontrollable.”
That’s right. And so you had at least two ‘idiots’ that were well trained and experienced WFF that acted like ‘idiots’ that day, even though they were supervisors. I say they acted like ‘idiots’ that day based on their long habit of making bad decisions and getting away with them. And the GMHS Crewmembers had choices, and they chose to follow even though they knew better.
The YH Fire was the final straw.
Exactly, RTS. Now it behooves the investigators to tell the whole truth of the deadly decisions that were made that day and the influences that caused those decisions.
Because there was an intense desire to paint the GMHS in a good light and especially those who ran the show so badly, we had a cursory investigation and a no blame type investigation. Investigators did their best to avoid anything that might entail a law suit or make someone look bad, that eventhough it is obvious to anyone willing to look into this how terrible the situation was handled throughout.
Exactly and it was strange that a number of those beside Marse and Steed were seasoned wild land fire fighters, yet they too followed Steed down into that basin against all reason. That has to be human factors, something Dr. Ted Putnam follows closely. Understanding those factors and educating fire fighters about those problems will certainly save lives.
They definitely went against all reason and against all the basic safety rules. To say that they just were doing what they were compelled to do (either by their own volition or by orders) to protect structures by risking all makes no sense.
What does make sense is that they were compelled by human factors and humans. Those of wisdom well experienced in smoke jumping and wild land fire fighting have said that the system is ready to protect its reputation at the expense of the safety and lives of future wild land fire fighters.
This is a sad situation. Yet the people we see that want a true investigation and are not afraid to admit that this was a badly managed ordeal are revealing the facts. So we remain optimistic in revealing what really is behind the botched Yarnell fire fighting ordeal.
Indeed, anyone taking on a job as a wild land fighter deserves to be a hero. Yet it is best to be a live hero rather than a dead one, so these matters of safety are of utmost importance. Let the truth express itself toward that goal and here are those contributing toward that goal.
Thanks, JD, and all your friends who respect the truth over a white wash.
Here is a truth that I keep harping on even though I don’t like too much harp music. Harps are fine but fiddles can make you dance.
That 320 acres with a few more million of tax dollars would make an excellent wild land fire fighting training area. The two track and following the GMHS errors would be the greatest education to saving novice wild land fire fighters. To take that two track from beginning to the point of fire origen and back to a base camp at the center of the basin would have to be a highlight of any young fire fighters training. That manzanita is already back strong enough that it would give the young firefighter good learning to bushwhack that dense growth enough to understand the danger of getting caught in the situation they were in. To visit the old grader and know how little protection that was as evidenced by its burned off tires and blued steel plate and despite it had what one would think might be a good place to deploy under one of those fire blankets and despite what seemed to be a cleared out area around it of 30 ft. or so on each side. To look at the melted aluminum cans around it and lead melted out of old carnation cream cans–this kind of thing would educate and save lives. To descend that steep ridge into the death basin and to see and understand what caused those mens deaths and actually bushwhack the area where they erred would be an indelible lifesaver. It would impress upon them to follow the safety procedures even if some outside influences would have them not to.
Tax payers would gladly invest in saving lives that way and it would be a tribute and honor to those GMHS.
Sonny,
I agree on the access and availability of the YH Fire and GMHS fatality Site. We need to be allowed all the way there and above as well at their Safety Zone if we are to truly learn anything. We need to walk where they walked. And it needs to be open to ALL and not just a select few if it’s to be of any value as a training opportunity and Lessons Learned site.
And one more thing, you keep mentioning manzanita, however, what I remember of Yarnell that it was predominately Turbinella or Scrub Oak. I don’t recall seeing any manzanita.
Where the men died was +or- 95% manzanita. There was some shrub oak and cat claw as well. The shrub oak was mostly dispersed on the decline from two track and even a few pinon near the two track. If you look at Joy’s photos, one is right at the spot they died and shows the dense manzanita growth as predominant. At the time they went down it was at waist high to chest high and jumbled together so that certain areas were totally impassable. I called those bear wallows since animals such as bear, dear and javelina had tromped it down enough the stick, much dead, were laying parallel to the ground and mixed into the vertical green growth.
That area where they died we had crossed and argued. It was early morning and breaking day. The fire was still in the boulders some two miles or so from that point to the NW. I wanted to go straight up to the two track, but Joy wanted to go around the north ridge of the basin, then up the canyon to the two track. That meant a greater distance through the manzanita and that was a chore I wanted to avoid as much as possible. It is a tough go even for two people where you wind up back tracking and attempting different paths to get though the dense growth. Much of the time you found yourself on hands and knees or on belly wiggling under the brush. You sometimes wonder when you would come face to face with a rattler, or even a coyote or cougar. To a hiker and mountain lover it is all part of the hike–to be experienced cheerfully or not at all. Not for the light hearted, but excellent boot camp training, or preliminary wild land fire fighting training.
I believe it was mostly Jesse Steed’s fault as well. I have said many times that if I an investigator investigating the Yarnell HIll Fire I would have recommended in the strongest terms possible that both Eric Marsh and Jesse Steed be prosecuted for manslaughter if they would have survived their disastrous, foolhardy and completely reckless choices.
And actually, I give Eric Marsh and Jesse Steed the same score in that they share the 51% blame since I don’t believe the egotistical, easily threatened and insecure Eric Marsh ever really gave up supervision of the GMIHS.
I was just playing a game (I said it wasn’t logical) where I was A God and had the power to give amnesty to Jesse Steed because I have a special place for him in my heart because he was under so much pressure to do what he knew was so wrong.
Things like his Marine Corps training followed by his hotshot crew culture can-do gung-ho indoctrination followed by his real motivation, not wanting to lose his job, the responsibility of providing for his family because Eric Marsh was such an …….
I didn’t mean “amnesty”, I meant that as a God I would pardon Jesse Steed, I would still punish him accordingly, but I would pardon him in the end.
I also be believe that once Marsh and Steed made the decision they did, the squad bosses really didn’t have a choice except to get in line. They may have made their objections known, which they should have done but we will never know, but once they were overridden, I think they had to get in line.
That’s how hotshot crews work (I think) and it almost always works out well, it hasn’t worked out well on only 4 fires in the history of hotshots. That is a pretty good average.
It was fairly common knowledge that there was a great deal of animosity and tension between Marsh and Steed regarding leadership and egos and more, when Marsh was on ‘light duty’ due to his mountain biking accident. One WF supervisor from the Doce Fire remarked ‘they just LOVED working for Steed.’
I believe that Marsh was concerned that he was ‘losing control’ of the GMHS while Steed was managing the Crew and that concerned him a great deal.
I think this came out fairly obviously on the YH Fire during the ‘discussing our options’ Crew Net radio transmissions, heard on the MacKenzie video clips and with what McDonough came forward with to Willis and then the Prescott Town Attorney, regarding the back-and-forth between Marsh and Steed about leaving and bring the GMHS down to the BSR or staying in ‘the black.’.
Reply to Robert the Second (RTS) post on
January 17, 2016 at 9:56 pm
>> RTS said…
>>
>> It was fairly common knowledge that there was a great
>> deal of animosity and tension between Marsh and
>> Steed regarding leadership and egos and more, when
>> Marsh was on ‘light duty’ due to his mountain biking
>> accident.
“fairly common knowledge”… to WHO?
NAMES, please.
>> RTS also said…
>>
>> One WF supervisor from the Doce Fire remarked
>> ‘they just LOVED working for Steed.’
NAME, please.
You are still putting yourself out there as a ‘Tree’, RTS… and if you continue top post statements like this… I’m going to SHAKE you.
Whoops. Typo up above.
Paragraph above should have read like this…
—————————————
You are still putting yourself out there as a ‘Tree’, RTS… and if you continue to post statements like this… I’m going to SHAKE you.
—————————————
Reply to Robert the Second RTS post on
January 17, 2016 at 9:56 pm
>> RTS said…
>>
>> It was fairly common knowledge that there
>> was a great deal of animosity and tension
>> between Marsh and Steed regarding leadership
>> and egos and more, when Marsh was on ‘light duty’
>> due to his mountain biking accident.
Here is a direct link to ADOSH’s second ( of two ) interviews with Prescott Wildland Division Chief Darrell Willis, on October 10, 2013…
https://www.dropbox.com/sh/20inrene9tcx74a/AABB7pqfxplG5TR4LfurNJ2ka/ADOSH%20Yarnell%20Hill%20Investigation/City%20of%20Prescott%20Fire%20–%20GMHS/Employee%20Interviews%20by%20ADOSH/Transcripts/Chief%20Darrell%20Willis%20Interview%2010-10-13%20redacted.pdf?dl=0
Starting on line 507 ( and continuing for 3 pages ) is where ADOSH investigators were specifically asking Willis about this entire ‘bicycle injury’ that Eric Marsh suffered, and how that led to Jesse becoming the ‘temporary Superintendent’ and ended up being the one signing the ‘certification’ document that Marsh had been refusing to sign.
The ‘questioning’ ( and Willis’ commentary on all this ) continues on through the Doce fire and Marsh’s return to duty.
At NO TIME does Darrell Willis mention any ‘animosity’ and/or ‘tension’ between Marsh and Steed due to all of this.
Quite the contrary.
Willis makes it sound like ALL of that was hunky-dory… and that Marsh and Steed were completely ‘on the same page’ about adding Tom Cooley as a temporary ‘assistant Supt’ and Jesse taking over the crew in Marsh’s absence, with the full understanding that Marsh would be ‘returning to duty’ when he was able to.
According to Willis… the one thing that NO ONE wanted to have happen would be to have to ‘bump’ the Granite Mountain crew back down to a Type 2 IA ( Initial Attack ) rating.
So if you’re going to make the kinds of ‘assertions’ like you just did… I have a right to ‘call you out’ on it and ask for more detail about WHERE you are getting that information.
Are you talking about things you seem to ‘know’ from talking directly to ‘family members’, or WFF people or other ‘fire people’ ( not Willis ) in the Prescott Fire department?
WHO?
WHERE is/was this ‘fairly common knowledge that there was a great deal of animosity and tension between Marsh and Steed” you asserting coming from?
I doubt he will answer you but he might correct or answer me.
He lives close to Yarnell Prescott and next to a couple of Forests.
He is a pickup member of R3 Type 1 and 2 teams.
He is a Fire overhead that goes on fires to fill positions on out of region teams.
He personally knows severial R3 Superintendents as well as other Prescott NF Fire people.
He goes to the Superintendents yearly meetings in R3
He also travels and gives lectures on different Fire training sessions throughout the west and occasionally back east..
Or as I have said before he has a solid in with the FS Grapevine and is well known with current employees.
So yes he gets lots of info you will never hear on hear and he will not give up names for you or even me.
The Fairly common knowledge is who he knows and where he goes and people that talk to him.
So you can take it or leave it that’s all you are going to get.
Calling people out like you did me will get you no where
as you have turned me off others will follow.
Your sounding like Elizabeth again.
Adios MF
Well… if anyone is starting to ‘sound’ like Elizabeth… it’s RTS.
Remember what that consternation ( with EN ) was mostly all about.
Posting PUBLIC ‘assertions’ and then not willing to answer any questions about it, or provide any information about where those ‘assertions’ were coming from.
I don’t really care if it was RTS or anyone else posting what just appeared.
You have to admit… that’s a pretty HUGE assertion to make… as if it is some kind of ‘known fact’ ( As in… ‘fairly common knowledge’… and then not ‘qualify’ WHO it is that ‘seems’ to possess that asserted ‘common knowledge’.
And to also ‘assert’ there was not just a ‘little’ of this alleged ‘animosity and tension’… but a (quote) “GREAT DEAL” of it… as follows…
>> RTS said…
>>
>> It was fairly common knowledge that
>> there was a great deal of animosity
>> and tension between Marsh and Steed
>> regarding leadership and egos and more,
>> when Marsh was on ‘light duty’
>> due to his mountain biking accident.
So regardless if that statement comes from this mysterious RTS guy or not… I didn’t want that to just ‘fly by’ and have people think it’s a FACT… without at least asking the poster to elaborate.
All that being said… it would not actually SURPRISE me to learn that was SOME kind of ‘tension’ between Marsh and Steed in the ‘job description’ category…
…but if someone is asking me to accept that it is ‘common knowldege’ there WAS… and that there was actually a “GREAT DEAL” of it… and also seem to be asserting it might have been a PRIMARY causal factor in the deaths of 19 men…
…I’d like to hear a little more about where that information is coming from.
I’m just funny that way, I guess.
WTKTT,
Then don’t accept it.
Comparing me to the Black Widow Spider Elizabeth sure was low.
Baiting and guilt trips don’t work with me
Reply to Robert the Second post on
January 18, 2016 at 7:39 pm
>> RTS said…
>>
>> Then don’t accept it.
Okay. I don’t ( accept it as anything resembling a truthful statement ).
>> RTS also said…
>>
>> Comparing me to the Black Widow Spider >> Elizabeth sure was low.
I was comparing the SITUATION ( regarding this recent assertion of yours ) to previous ( similar ) situations.
And YES… just like what EN used to do.
It involves making some huge ASSERTION and then not being willing to talk more about it and give us more to go on so that we even have a CHANCE of believing what you are saying.
WHO are these people you are asserting have this ‘common knowledge’ of a GREAT DEAL ( and not just a little ) of ‘animosity and tension’ between Eric Marsh and Jesse Steed?
And where were THEY getting THEIR information? From Willis? Hearing ‘arguments’ between Marsh and Steed first-hand?
WHAT?
WTKTT,
Such hypocrisy. You allow yourself to make all kinds of assertions in this and previous chapters, that something ‘LIKELY’ occurred, and someone ‘LIKELY’ did or said something, or whatever, yet not allow me to maintain confidentiality.
You “have a CHANCE of believing” what I am saying. You choose not to believe that. Suit yourself.
Neither you nor anyone else will know “WHO are these people” that have this ‘common knowledge’ of a GREAT DEAL ( and not just a little ) of ‘animosity and tension’ between Eric Marsh and Jesse Steed.”
I’m done.
WTKTT,
Names?
NO NAMES because I keep my word.
You posted: “I have a right to ‘call you out’ on it and ask for more detail about WHERE you are getting that information.”
Yes, you do and I have a right to not give you the answer(s) you are expecting.
You also posted: “Are you talking about things you seem to ‘know’ from talking directly to ‘family members’, or WFF people or other ‘fire people’ ( not Willis ) in the Prescott Fire department?”
My reply is both yes and no.
As far as Willis’ ADOSH interview and him not mentioning any tension and animosity between Marsh and Steed – so what.
In the July 2013 YH Fire News Conference, Willis was doing all he could to defend the indefensible, when he went on his verbal and logical gymnastics voyage, making the statements he made, oft times irrational, regarding the GMHS’ actions and inactions on 30 June 2013.
He did do a lot to reveal the PFD ‘attitude’ regarding risk taking and structure protection and WFF safety and so much more in the areas of human factors.. Those helped me to better understand WHY the GMHS did some of the things they did, leading up to and occurring on 30 June 2013.
These men were Willis’ ‘sons’ as far as he was concerned, and they could do, and did, no wrong in his eyes. I kinda get that in a very marginal way but not really.
So, I see him doing the same thing and following the same pattern in the ADOSH interview regarding the tension and animosity that existed between Marsh and Steed.
>> RTS said…
>>
>> You also posted: “Are you talking about
>> things you seem to ‘know’ from talking
>> directly to ‘family members’, or WFF
>> people or other ‘fire people’ ( not Willis ) in
>> the Prescott Fire department?”
>>
>> My reply is both yes and no.
Thanks for ( yet another ) non-answer answer.
The statement in question was…
>> RTS said…
>>
>> It was fairly common knowledge that there
>> was a great deal of animosity and tension
>> between Marsh and Steed regarding
>> leadership and egos and more, when
>> Marsh was on ‘light duty’
>> due to his mountain biking accident.
You said there was a (quote) GREAT DEAL of it.
You said it was “fairly common knowledge”.( but you still won’t clarify who seems to ‘possess’ this ‘common knowledge’ ).
You are also asserting ( up above ) that this “GREAT DEAL” ( not just a little ) of “animosity and tension” *might* have actually been a PRIMARY causal factor in the deaths of 19 men.
That’s a pretty HUGE assertion.
If there is ANYTHING else you can say about it that might bring this anywhere nearer the ‘believable’ category… here’s your chance.
WTKTT,
You posted: “If there is ANYTHING else you can say about it that might bring this anywhere nearer the ‘believable’ category… here’s your chance.”
Oh, thank you so much for allowing me my opportunity, however, I choose to pass on my ‘chance.’
Baiting, implied threats, and guilt trips don’t work with me.
Gary has good logic here. God had plans for 250 thousand after that Sunami along the Indonesian coast? Did he want to mess up the air water and environment after the Japanese nuclear reactors went down? I guess the Japanese God had plans for those dead ones. Logic says God had nothing to do with this. I think more likely the bad aliens were working on those men that day. They let me go since they had other plans for me–they knew that i was in line for a number of heart attacks anyway.
When you come down to it we wonder how a dumb cowpoke, miner, logger saw the danger they did not see, or maybe they had never before bushwhacked the intense manzanita else the fire gods could not have tempted them down there. The only logical reason phone records were hidden, black out communications declared, and evidence smeared over from day one was that someone else is involved in the deaths of those men. Nothing else makes sense here.
Add to that the excessive back slapping of how well they did the job at Yarnell so news papers put out the bunk and we see what the system that did bad makes itself look good. Tell a lie long enough and well enough they even begin to believe it themselves. The public at large wants to be optimistic and so if you feed them an optimistic God type line then they go for it. But if they get the facts and see how all these deaths were unessary and caused by a carless fire fighting effort and people willing to risk lives just to save houses and equipment, then they begin to cry out for answers.
The FBI doesn’t seem to mind here, or if they do they are keeping quiet just like most of the fire fighters and people who do know the real situation. What about the millions of tax money squandered here when a few hundred would have and should have taken care of the danger from day one. All those millions gained by the enterprises involved in fighting the fire can never take place of the lives lost of 19 young wild land fire fighting men and the loss of many elderly (70+ and counting) since the fire, now only a couple years distant.
Still I believe there are some good souls beyond the few who comtribute to this site who are not willing to accept this investigation through until it is completed and true. There is too much hidden, too many mouths quiet, and too much fear of the truth. And it is for sure many can not handle the truth.
Now I don’t know how Gary leaves Steed out of the Picture? He was the bad ass marine that parachuted in and fought off three bears with his chain saw at night. He was said to be the Greek God of firefighting to the men according to some of the writers. In my estimation and from what Joy has discovered, it looks like he was being groomed to be next in line to Willis instead of Marsh. He certainly had the strength and pizazz to tell Marsh to go to hell.
But then if you want to start properly, you would go back to day one and begin finding out who in the Yarnell and Congress fire departments were too afraid to tackle the fire or whatever else their excuses were to not go put it out on Friday evening. Especially the local Yarnell fire department–I see them every bit as responsible as Marsh and Steed here. If you allow a fire to grow knowing the possible circumstances and you have knowledge as the local fire department did then you had every obligation to treat that fire as an emergency and immediately take action to contain it. They did not, And now if you saw your neighbors house afire and did not take action to awaken them and get them out then you also are a culprit. The same goes for people that see an accident on the highway and instead of rendering aid drive on by and by their refusal to give aid, people die.
God did not have anything to do with killing 19. If he did he would have killed me too.
Joy said it was because I was a tramp miner. When a couple tramp miners were killed after a mine cave in and their spirts went up to the Pearly Gate, St. Peter said we can’t let you fellows in here to heaven. But God was overhearing and told St. Peter–“Let them in. They won’t stay but two or three days anyway.”
That might be cause there ain’t any bars there and they generally don’t like harp music that much.
I think Sonny summed up my God best with his example. My God does not come up with a plan to take an unknown number of souls all home to heaven in one fell swoop by generating a the massive 2004 Indian Ocean earthquake off the coast of Sumatra and the subsequent massive tsunami that devastated most of Indonesia just because he has a plan for that many Indonesian all at once in heaven.
He or She or It just does not do that. Random things like tectonic plates sometimes just shift because that is what they do.and my God neither stopped it from happening nor caused it to happen.
Sometimes bad things just happen to good people and God is not directly involved one way or the other.
God created the universe and everything in it, including the world we live in. He is in control of all of it.
He allows things like tectonic plates to shift and earthquakes and tsunamis to occur. God has the power to stop them from happening, yet sometimes He causes them and/or allows them to happen. He is Almighty God and I accept that is the way it is. I fear and love God, I do NOT fear man.
Sometimes bad things just happen to good people and God IS directly involved. You can believe what you want, however, it is what it is.
Pearl Moore’s ashes had been with the Smith family for a long while but they thought it would be suiting for her to be at the LOOKOUT point going down the Weaver Mountains on highway 89 so every time you drive down Yarnell hill please think of Pearl Moore and how before the fire the only thing she did was taking vitamins and just began the meds for dementia—the lack of initial attack on that fire when it could of been put out and that HEAVY SMOKE and lack of evacuation notice and that retardant drop enhanced her good health to poor and died of lung cancer— please never forget the casualties beyond the 19…
plus Dan Sullivan please visit Brian Smith—you too Gary Cordes and explain the fire to them and your position of who you saved that day
Sonny reached Dan Sullivan—I will let him tell you about that.
“Sonny reached Dan Sullivan—I will let him tell you about that.”
I’m very glad about this. And I really hope he feels free to speak.
And it would be really helpful to know whose Incident Management Team he was a part of in 2913. That shouldn’t be too threatening for him to say.
Even more helpful would be, what, exactly was he doing on the fire. I’d really like to know more about the coordination between the ground forces and the aerial resources on the fire, all things considered.
Namaste, And if you need any financial backing for your legal coverage, please don’t be hesitant to ask for it. I really pledge to have your back.
Oops typo.
Of course 2913 should be 2013.
Dan Sullivan apparantly is not the Dan Sullivan of the fire. He uses that name on his survival web site because he says he has a Romanian name that is hard to pronounce. I thought he was Irish, but he replied no sorry. Well he picked a good Irish name and maybe he liked the song “Danny Boy”.
His site if you go there is very interesting. You can learn a lot on survival–maybe Obama should go there. He wants to prepare you for the worst possible conditions because he escaped those from the Russian situation and had to live through hard times and knows what martial law really can mean. Every dictatorship begins by confication of weapons. All the way from Hitler to communist Pol Pot and now England and America in the bud, when it wants to control the population disarms the people.
FBI, CIA men will tell you not if but when the terrorists do set off a nuclear device in some major city or cities, this country will go into mayhem and the few that are prepared will indeed increase their chances of survival. Do we forget that in the LA mayhem after Rodney King that the only store owners and people that were able to protect their lives and property were those armed? Here we go again and there are some fools that will say well God will protect me. That was what Jim Jones said to 900 and what he did was kill over 900. That 2nd Amendment was put in there to make sure a government did not become a despotic entity. To add to it we are now in a time of history like never before with people from other lands and religions willing to blow up the whole of a city with themselves thinking they will have rewards of virgins–I dont know what the women get maybe young men virgins– just to please a bunch of whacko religionist emams or whatever they ascribe to themselves. I would equal them to Jim Jones in towel head gear and with beards.
This is about fire fighting and it seems to me even the common citizen would do well to learn about it. He likely will need the knowledge.
Reply to Sonny post on January 16, 2016 at 11:05 pm
>> Sonny said…
>>
>> Dan Sullivan apparantly is not the Dan Sullivan of the fire.
>> He uses that name on his survival web site because he says
>> he has a Romanian name that is hard to pronounce.
Thank you, Sonny. YES… that’s correct.
This “Survival Sullivan” guy who runs that “Survival” website is most certainly NOT the ‘Dan Sullivan’ from the Prescott National Forest Fire/Aviation Center who was hired as an ASGS for the Yarnell Fire on Sunday morning, June 30, 2013.
The ‘actual’ Yarnell Hill ‘Dan Sullivan’ was ( apparently ) never interviewed by ANY set of investigators… and we don’t even have a ‘Unit Log’ from this guy, even though we KNOW he was there ( working ) at the Yarnell Hill Fire that Sunday.
Reply to Marti Reed post on January 15, 2016 at 4:57 am
>> Marti Reed said…
>>
>> Given what I’ve seen in these aerial photos, it has always disturbed me that
>> they didn’t start that line above Glen Illah. I don’t know why that was the case.
>> I really don’t and it bothers me.
>>
>> On January 15, 2016 at 8:13 am, WTKTT replied…
>>
>> Thomas French himself would later say ( over the Air-To-Air channel ) that that
>> is what he WANTED to do… but he and John Burfiend wasted too much time
>> ‘finishing up’ what they were doing on the NORTH end before (eventually) turning
>> their attention to the SOUTH part of the Yarnell Hill Fire.
Here is the ‘followup’ to that statement above, and the exact Air-To-Air radio channel capture where B33 Thomas French was admitting that the line of retardant extending from Shrine Road north was NOT what he ‘wanted to do’ that day… but because he was so late getting to the SOUTH end of the Yarnell Fire… and the column had already begun ‘laying over’ by the time he got down there… he was forced to stay ‘to the north’.
Here he is finally asking DC10 VLAT 910 to ‘come on in’ to the Yarnell Town area from where he had him in a holding pattern SOUTH of Yarnell…
NOTE: At this point in this Panebaker Video… we do NOT hear what VLAT 910 pilot ‘Kevin’ is saying to French on the Air-To-Air channel. All we hear at this point is what Thomas French is saying TO ‘Kevin’…
——————————————————————–
** Panebaker Air-To-Air Radio Channel Capture
** VIDEO 20160630_1643 STARTS AT 1630.50 ( 4:30.50 PM ) ( EXIF timestamp ).
+05:46 ( 1636.36 / 4:36.36 PM )
(B33 – French): Tanker nine one zero… you are cleared in… come on in at… six thousand five hundred with nine eight zero.
+05:56 ( 1636.46 / 4:36.46 PM )
(B33 – French): And I’ve got a project for you.
+06:01 ( 1636.51 / 4:36.51 PM )
(B33 – French): It’s all good, though.
+06:05 ( 1636.55 / 4:36.55 PM )
(B33 – French): That’s affirmative… uh… on the east side… uh… can’t really get in where we really need it we’ll be a little bit further to the north.
———————————————————————-
Thomas French tells VLAT 910 pilot ‘Kevin’…
“…can’t really get in where we really NEED it.”
“…we’ll be a little bit further to the NORTH”.
It was simply too UNSAFE to try and do any retardant drops to protect Yarnell proper, or Glen Ilah, at that point.
The column had already begun to ‘lay over’ by the time French even got down there.
So all they could do was start working on that retardant line to the northwest of Yarnell proper… which is the one clearly seen in the ‘aftermath’ aerial photos.
But that’s not all ( from French ).
Just a little while later… he would tell the inbound relief Air Attack, Rusty Warbis, that the line of retardant there to the north of Yarnell isn’t even what he WANTED to do. He ( French ) WANTED to be “further to the south”.
In the next Air-To-Air radio channel capture…
Bravo 3 ( Rusty Warbis and Paul Lenmark ) have returned to the Yarnell Airspace and are about to take over for French and Burfiend in ‘Bravo 33’.
Warbis is now asking French if he wants him to just keep extending that line of retardant which now stretches from just north of the Shrine Road, north and out into the foothills just to the northwest of Yarnell ( as seen in the aftermath aerial photos ).
This is where French LAUGHS and says that isn’t even the ‘line’ he wanted in the first place ( but since he was so late getting to the SOUTH part of the Fire that was all he could safely do by the time he DID get down there ).
———————————————————————-
** Panebaker Air-To-Air Radio Channel Capture
** VIDEO 20130630_1716_EP STARTS AT 1645.19 ( 4:45.19 PM ) ( EXIF timestamp ).
+20:56 ( 1706.15 / 5:06.15 PM )
(Bravo 3 – Rusty Warbis): Bravo Three, Bravo Three Thr… Uh… Bravo Three Three, Bravo Three.
+20:59 ( 1706.18 / 5:06.18 PM )
(B33 – French): Go ahead, Rusty.
+21:00 ( 1706.19 / 5:06.19 PM )
(Bravo 3 – Rusty Warbis): Ya want me to just look at extendin’ that?
+21:05 ( 1706.24 / 5:06.24 PM )
(B33 – French): Hey Rusty… you (faded) out. Say again?
+21:07 ( 1706.26 / 5:06.26 PM )
(Bravo 3 – Rusty Warbis): Are you lookin’ at just extendin’ that line.
+21:10 ( 1706.29 / 5:06.29 PM )
(B33 – French): Well… ( he laughs)… that’s… that’s not even the line I wanted.
I wanted to be further to the south.
———————————————————————-
Thomas French (LAUGHS) and then tells Rusty Warbis…
“…that’s not even the line I WANTED”.
“…I WANTED to be further to the south”.
By the way…
I was WRONG in my previous post about it taking 30 minutes from the time Thomas French told departing Air Attack Rory Collins ( at exactly 3:50 PM ) that he was “heading down there” ( to Yarnell ) before he ever actually bothered to do that.
It was MORE than that.
It was 40 ( FORTY ) minutes.
See next post.
Reply to Marti Reed post on January 15, 2016 at 4:57 am
>> Marti said…
>>
>> Given what I’ve seen in these aerial photos, it has always disturbed me that
>> they didn’t start that line above Glen Illah. I don’t know why that was the case.
>> I really don’t and it bothers me.
>>
>> On January 15, 2016 at 6:20 am calvin replied…
>>
>> Thanks marti. I agree. I agree, and per Eric Pane bakers notes, the drops to
>> protect yarnell were suppose to begin around 1550.
You are right, calvin.
3:50 PM ( plus 37 seconds ) is the exact moment when Rory Collins got on the Air-To-Air radio channel and TOLD Thomas French, in Bravo 33, all of the following…
1. There was a (quote) ‘heck of wind shift’ going on.
2. There was now a LOT of fire headed straight for Yarnell ( and Glen Ilah ).
3. They ( French and Burfiend in Bravo 33 ) NEEDED to ‘swing around and take a look at that’.
And Thomas French IMMEDIATELY replied to Air Attack Rory Collins with…
(quote) “Copy… we’re headed that way”.
Rory Collins then LEFT the Yarnell Air Space because his pilot was ‘timing out’, under the impression that French and Burfiend were ‘on their way’ down to the SOUTH end of the Yarnell Hill Fire to take care of this fast-developing situation down there.
They did no such thing.
Thomas French remained pre-occupied with just ‘tidying up’ that line of retardant he’d been working on that afternoon up on the NORTH end of the Yarnell Hill Fire in the Miner’s Camp Road and Model Creek Road area(s)… even though the wind had ALREADY shifted to the SOUTH and the threat to those areas had pretty much now abated.
He used the next TWO available SEATS and the newly-inbound VLAT 911 to just ‘finish off’ that retardant line on the NORTH end of the fire before he even gave any thought to heading down towards the SOUTH end of the Yarnell Hill Fire, as he had told Rory Collins at 3:50 PM he WOULD do.
Between 3:50 PM and 4:20 PM… he just ’emptied’ both those available SEATS and the ‘full load’ of DC10 VLAT 911 on that ‘project’ up there on the NORTH end of the fire.
It wasn’t until 4:25 PM ( 35 minutes after told Collins he would head to the SOUTH end ) that he decided he was ‘satisfied’ with his NORTH end retardant line ‘project’, and that’s when he told the ONLY Tanker now left over the fire with any retardant ( SEAT 413 ) to start heading down to the SOUTH end ( and the EAST side ) and he would ‘meet him there’.
——————————————————————————————
+37:10 ( 1625:08 / 4:25:08 )
(B33 – French): Tanker 413 Bravo 33… uh… plans have changed.
I’ll meet you on the… uh.. east side of the fire… kind of the southeast
side… and… but you can maintain… uh… fifty-five, okay?
——————————————————————————————-
It would then take Thomas French just short of another THREE minutes to even get DOWN there to the SOUTH end of the Yarnell Hill Fire, and even BEGIN to start ‘checking out the situation’ down there.
The smoke column was ALREADY ‘laying down’ at this time.
Only at 4:27:48 PM ( 37 minutes since he told Collins he would head SOUTH ) does Thomas French even BEGIN to start ‘checking out’ the situation there on the south end… and he tells Tanker 413 to ‘standby’ while he even begins to figure out what is possible at that point…
He TELLS Tanker 413 ( at 4:27:48 PM ) “This is my FIRST TIME HERE”…
——————————————————————————————–
+39:50 ( 1627:48 / 4:27:48 PM )
(B33 – French): Okay… 413… stay there. ( Garbled transmission ).
We’re… uh… probly gonna be puttin’ somethin’ in in front of
these structures here but… uh… this is my first time here let
me go check it out.
——————————————————————————————–
Incredibly… it then took Thomas French another FIVE MINUTES ( 4 minutes and 50 seconds ) of just ‘flying around’ to even figure out what was now possible to do, safely, there on the SOUTH end of the Yarnell Hill Fire.
He was now TOO LATE to do anything meaningful to protect either Yarnell proper, or any part of the Glen Ilah subdivision.
He had WASTED TOO MUCH TIME up on the NORTH end of the fire, and the smoke column was now already ‘laying down’ on the SOUTH end.
At 4:32:38 French finally gets back to Tanker 413 and tells him what he wants him to do… which is begin the only ‘project’ that was even feasible and/or safe now since he had watied so long… and start dropping retardant on the NORTH end of Yarnell, in the foothills ( the spot that would then show up in the aftermath aerial photos )…
——————————————————————————————–
** Panebaker Air-To-Air Radio Channel Capture
** VIDEO 20160630_1643 STARTS AT 1630.50 ( 4:30.50 PM ) ( EXIF timestamp ).
+01:48 ( 1632.38 / 4:32.38 PM )
(B33 – French): Hey… uh.. four one three… if ya got me in sight… what I’d like to do is pretty much anywhere in here where it’s heavy open flame is in the fuel… right through here…have ya got that?
+01:57 ( 1632.47 / 4:32.47 PM )
(Tanker 413): Yea… is it like starting up the… ah… the ridgetop or anything?
+02:01 ( 1632.51 / 4:32.51 PM )
(B33 – French): Affirmative.
+02:03 ( 1632.53 / 4:32.53 PM )
(Tanker 413): Okay… do what I can
————————————————————————————————-
Thomas French then lined up a ‘drop’ for Tanker 413 there in the foothills to the NORTH of Yarnell proper… and gave Tanker 413 permission to drop…
——————————————————————–
** Panebaker Air-To-Air Radio Channel Capture
** VIDEO 20160630_1643 STARTS AT 1630.50 ( 4:30.50 PM ) ( EXIF timestamp ).
+02:03 ( 1632.53 / 4:32.53 PM )
(Tanker 413): Okay… do what I can
+02:05 ( 1632.55 / 4:32.55 PM )
(B33 – French): Then give me a gentle right turn on the exit
+02:07 ( 1632.57 / 4:32.57 PM )
(Tanker 413): You got it.
+02:24 ( 1633.14 / 4:33.14 PM )
(Tanker 413): Off the drop.
+02:27 ( 1633.17 / 4:33.17 PM )
(B33 – French): Okay follow me around in the right hand and
then… ah… load and return, okay?
+02:31 ( 1633.21 / 4:33.21 PM )
(Tanker 413): Roger that. Load and return.
+02:34 ( 1633.24 / 4:33.24 PM )
(B33 – French): Yea… we liked your drop… I know there was a lotta fire in there… but… ah… (laughter) nicely done
+02:39 ( 1633.29 / 4:33.29 PM )
(Tanker 413): Yea (laughter)… it’s… it’s like spittin’ at it.
——————————————————————–
So Tanker 413 finally did its FIRST drop at exactly 4:33:14 there on the SOUTH side of the Yarnell Hill Fire, used its whole load, and French told him to ‘load and return’.
The TIMESPAN looks like this…
3:50:37 – Thomas French told Rory Collins he was “heading that way” to the SOUTH end of the Yarnell Hill Fire, in reaction to being told there was (quote from Rory Collins ), “A LOT of fire headed towards Yarnell. You NEED to swing around and take a look at it”.
4:33:14 – The first retardant drop anywhere near the town of Yarnell.
That’s a TIMESPAN of 42 minutes and 37 seconds between when Thomas French TOLD Air Attack Rory Collins he would head to the SOUTH side of the fire… and when he finally did that and was able to line up a ‘drop’ anywhere near Yarnell.
Thanks WTKTT.
This is why I think we need both an interview with Dan Sullivan and the Air To Ground Channel recording that I’m 99.999999999% certain exists via the Air Study crew.
You have all along been sounding like you’re assuming that Tom French was “running this show”, disconnected from ground operations. I have NEVER thought that. I have ALWAYS believed the retardant drops were being being coordinated with someone on the ground. That’s the way it happens, for the most part.
Which is why when you linked Sullivan with the “that’s where we want it” “communique,” I thought BINGO.
I want to know how much Brad Sullivan was involved in those decisions to keep the aerial resources focused on the north side of the fire, finishing those ops, while the fire was turning toward the south. I just don’t believe it was purely Tom French. He was just the Lead Plane pilot, not some kind of strategist.
The strategist would have been, imho, Dan Sullivan. Well, Dan Sullivan in conversations with John Burfiend over Air 2 Ground, thus the need for that channel recording to accurately determine who was making what decisions.Those decisions would have been the purview of Dan Sullivan and John Burfiend, imno, and not Tom French.
Namaste.
Reply to Marti Reed post on January 16, 2016 at 6:14 pm
>> Marti said…
>>
>> This is why I think we need both an interview with Dan Sullivan
>> and the Air To Ground Channel recording that I’m
>> 99.999999999% certain exists via the Air Study crew.
Agree. It’s still fairly inconceivable to believe that ‘Aerial Retartdant Study’, with the amount of MONEY that was obviously being invested in it ( by taxpayers ) would have been making sure they had a recording of all the Air-To-Air radio traffic… and WOULD not have been making a similar recording of the all-important Air-To-Ground channel.
>> Marti also said…
>>
>> You have all along been sounding like you’re assuming
>> that Tom French was “running this show”, disconnected
>> from ground operations.
Not ‘disconnected’ from ground operations, no… but “doing his own thing up there most of the time”… yes… that is what the EVIDENCE seems to be saying.
There IS ‘some’ evidence of him making ‘some’ decisions based on input from the ground… but not much.
>> Marti also said…
>>
>> I have NEVER thought that. I have ALWAYS believed the
>> retardant drops were being being coordinated with
>> someone on the ground. That’s the way it happens, for the
>> most part.
SOME of them ( retardant drops ) WERE being ‘coordinated with someone on the ground’, yes.
But if you listen to the totality of the Air-to-Air radio traffic… MOST of them were NOT.
It was more like just getting a ‘general idea’ about what to be focusing on from the ‘ground’… but the ACTUAL locations for the drops seemed to be totally up to the fellas in the planes. That includes ALL of the ‘Air Attacks’ and ‘Lead Planes’ that worked Yarnell that day… and not just ‘Bravo 33’ after Rory Collins left the fire at 3:58 PM.
>> Marti also said…
>>
>> Which is why when you linked Sullivan with the “that’s where
>> we want it” “communique,” I thought BINGO.
I would also now EASILY believe that is who we hear John Burfiend ‘finishing’ that conversation with at the start of the original Aaron Hulburd ‘Helmet Cam’ video… just 13 seconds before Jesse Steed’s first pseudo-MAYDAY call.
Burfiend seemed to be specifically responding to someone who had just been specifically requesting what they wanted Air Support to ‘focus on’ there on the south end of the fire. Sounds EXACTLY like something an Air Support Group Supervisor would have been ‘requesting’.
>> Marti also said…
>>
>> I want to know how much Brad Sullivan was involved in those
>> decisions to keep the aerial resources focused on the north
>> side of the fire, finishing those ops, while the fire was turning
>> toward the south. I just don’t believe it was purely Tom French.
>> He was just the Lead Plane pilot, not some kind of strategist.
I’m with you on this, Marti. I really am.
I would like to BELIEVE that the Air Support that day wasn’t just a bunch of guys in airplanes doing whatever the fuck they felt like doing.
But the EVIDENCE is ( so far ) NOT THERE that there really was any kind of overall ‘contact point’ ( like and ASGS ) there on the ground overseeing the Air Operations that day.
The EVIDENCE still points to the opposite.
Example: There is NO EVIDENCE that, once Rusty Warbis and Paul Lenmark took over ‘Lead Plane and Air Attack’ at noon… that other than the first few drops which they coordinated with Darrell Willis to try and protect the Double-Bar-A Ranch… that they were then under ANYONE’S ‘direction’.
Warbis and Lenmark decided to waste THOUSANDS and THOUSANDS of dollars and time and effort laying that retardant line all across that middle bowl on their OWN… and they SAID SO in their interview.
After making a few drops to try and help Darrell Willis… Warbis and Lenmark said they ‘took their first full turn around the fire’ and assessed the situation completely on their own.
They reported NO OTHER CONTACT with anyone on the ground that day other than that brief interaction with Willis… and then that conversation with DIVSZ Rance Marquez.
OPS1 Todd Abel was even ‘up in the air’ with them on a RECON mission in a helicopter while they were making their own ‘turn around the fire’ recon… and they specifically told ADOSH they did NOT have one single conversation with OPS1 Abel about what they might be supposed to do.
They came up with their OWN plan… by THEMSELVES… and then proceeded to go about doing it without any ‘permission’ or ‘input’ from ANYONE.
They also almost managed to crash a helicopter into a VLAT while they were doing it… because no one was adequately coordinating the helicopter work, either.
So yea… I would LOVE to start seeing some ‘evidence’ that it was just a “do whatever you want” show up in the Air that Sunday… but MOST of the EVIDENCE we DO have indicates that WAS the case.
>> Marti also said…
>>
>> The strategist would have been, imho, Dan Sullivan.
>> Well, Dan Sullivan in conversations with John Burfiend
>> over Air 2 Ground, thus the need for that channel recording
>> to accurately determine who was making what decisions.
We actually DO have a fair amount of recorded ‘Air-To-Ground’ radio traffic from the ‘backgrounds’ of those other Panebaker videos ( and the other Aaron Hulburd videos )… and at NO time do we ever really seem to hear any Air-To-Ground radio traffic along the lines of what you are imagining.
We DO hear OPS1 Todd Able talking over ‘Air-To-Ground’ about the situation in the Miner’s Camp Road area ( where he was physically monitoring things there on the ground )… and we obviously DO hear Burfiend finishing a some kind of ‘strategy’ conversation with someone on the ground just 13 seconds before Steeds first pseudo-MAYDAY…
…but other than that… there really isn’t ANYTHING like some central ground/air support person talking up to the aircraft.
Of course we don’t have the WHOLE A2G like we have the whole A2A… but even with all of the A2G traffic we do have you would think we would be hearing at least SOME of what you are imagining… if it really was ever happening that day.
>> Marti also said…
>>
>> Those decisions would have been the purview of Dan Sullivan
>> and John Burfiend, imno, and not Tom French.
Listen to the Air-To-Air channel recordings again.
Yes… Burfiend was sitting right next to French and was obviously relaying things to him coming up over the A2G channel… but this Thomas French guy was his ‘own man’ and it doesn’t sound ( for the most part ) that he felt like he needed ANY input from ANYONE.
He was up there ‘doing jis job’ and there’s enough A2A traffic capture to hear him making MOST of the decisions about what was going to happen next on his own.
If there WAS anyone on the ground there who was even remotely supposed to be controlling the ‘air show’… then I have no explanation for why Thomas French would be TOLD by the departing Air Attack ( at 3:50 PM ) that the winds had shifted and the most DANGER was no on the SOUTH side of the fire… and Thomas French still just felt free to spend the next FORTY MINUTES just ‘tidying up’ his pretty little retardant line on the NORTH side.
It doesn’t make any sense… considering that ‘pre-occupation’ with a retardant line that wasn’t even all that necessary anymore ( because of the major wind shift ) would then end up PREVENTING him from doing anything useful FORTY MINUTES LATER when he finally got down to where it was now all hitting the fan.
If there was ANY kind of ASGS there that day, doing his/her job… don’t you think that sometime during those FORTY minutes… when OPS1 Abel had already promised Marsh “We’ll get Air Support down there ASAP” ( at 3:50 PM ) and French had ALREADY told Air Attack he was “heading that way” ( again, at exactly 3:50 PM )…
…that sometime in those FORTY MINUTES when he kept not showing up and not showing up and not showing up on the SOUTH side… that someone wouldn’t have jumped on the horn and asked…
“Hey… Air Attack… where the FUCK ARE YOU!”
“We need you DOWN HERE. Like NOW.”
I think the lack of any kind of communication along those lines is a good indicator that there just really WASN’T anyone on the ground who was “in charge” of the fly boys that day.
Whoops. Typo up above.
I typed “was” where I should have typed “wasn’t”
Paragraph above should have read like this…
—————————————————————
So yea… I would LOVE to start seeing some ‘evidence’ that it WASN’T just a “do whatever you want” show up in the Air that Sunday… but MOST of the EVIDENCE we DO have indicates that WAS the case.
—————————————————————-
And… followup to above…
I guess what I was trying to say up above is that from a pure EVIDENCE standpoint… there is really nothing to indicate that there was anything even resembling an ‘ASGS’ or ‘AOBD’ presence in Yarnell that Sunday.
The EVIDENCE record (currently) tends to show that there WAS no one person ( or persons ) ‘organizing’ the overhead Air Support that day.
On the contrary… the EVIDENCE just shows multiple instances of the current ‘Air Attack’ just seeming to do whatever the hell he wanted to do, from the morning onward.
AA Rory Collins even WAS ‘in touch’ with DIVSA Marsh and Collins still just did what HE wanted to do, and not even what a ‘Division Supervisor’ was telling him HE wanted to do.
Collins dumped retardant all over Marsh’s indirect burnouts just because Collins didn’t like his ‘indirect’ approach and Collins FORCED him to do what HE wanted… go direct.
Shortly after that… Collins has to leave to refuel and he ‘tags out’ with incoming Air Attack / Lead Plane ‘Bravo 3’ ( Rusty Warbis and Paul Lenmark ).
Warbis and Lenmark then make the first VLAT drops of the day in support of Darrell Willis at the Double-Bar-A Ranch… but that was supposedly arranged via direct como between them and Willis himself ( no intermediary at all ).
After that… Warbis and Lenmark truly just “did what they wanted'”, and SAID SO in their ADOSH interview.
They spent thousands and thousands of dollars and much time and effort throwing that massive retardant line into the middle of unburned fuel without even ASKING anyone if that’s what they should be doing and how they should be spending all those taxpayer dollars that day. Even THEY acknowldeged it wasn’t the ‘best of ideas’ but snce they concluded that Granite Mountains was ‘out of the game’ and just ‘staging’ out to the west… and they saw the other Hotshot crew ( Blue Ridge ) just sitting around their carriers doing absolutely nothing at all… THEY decided it was at least something worth doing because ( in their own words ) “SOMEONE had to start doing SOMETHING to protect Yarnell… because the fire was going to go in there THAT day… THAT burn cycle”.
Then Collins returned and ‘Bravo 33’ showed up and Collins was ‘back in charge’ with Thomas French just doing ‘Lead Plane’.
When Collins left at 3:58 PM… ‘Bravo 33’ then became BOTH ‘Air Attack and Lead Plane’ again.
But nowhere in even that transition back to Collins after Warbis and Lenmark… or then the ‘pass off’ from Collins to French and Burfiend… is there ANY evidence that any DIRECTION was coming from some central ASGS or AOBD ‘coordinator’ on the ground… even though they were SUPPOSED to be there working that day.
Robert Ortlund was ‘ordered up’ as AOBD ( Air Operations Branch Director ) at 10:49 PM the night before, on Saturday, June 29, 2013.
Brad Zettler was ‘ordered up’ as ASGS ( Air Support Group Supervisor ) at the same exact time ( 10:49 PM ) the night before.
Brad Zettler’s resource order was ‘fulfilled’ in the very same minute, at 10:49.
Ortlund’s resource order took a different route.
The ‘Fulfillment records’ show Dispatch trying to contact Ortlund with two different phone calls after the order was posted.
One call at 11:18 PM Saturday night, just 29 minutes after his AOBD order was posted. Then another one the next MORNING at 7:09 AM.
Robert Ortlund’s AOBD order was not actually ‘fulfilled’ until 9:11 AM on Sunday morning.
But then, just 23 minutes later, at 9:34 AM Sunday, an entire NEW order for another ASGS was issued, requesting that new ASGS to be in Yarnell just an hour and half later, at 11:00 AM. That new ASGS order got ‘fulfilled 36 minutes later, at 10:10 AM, with this ‘Dan Sullivan’ guy from the Prescott National Forest Air Center.
And Brad Zettler’s Unit Log says Sullivan did, in fact, arrive in Yarnell circa 11:30 AM.
But Brad Zettler is also the one telling us that this ‘AOBD’ Robert Ortlund guy NEVER SHOWED UP that day ( Sunday, June 30 ).
But then we have Roy Hall telling ADOSH, 2 months later, that his two ‘Air Support’ people in Yarnell that day WERE, in fact, Brad Zettler and Robert Ortlund… with NO mention of anyone named Dan Sullivan ever being there.
Like Roy Hall was just ASSUMING that Ortlund had showed up to his own fire… but never even lifted one finger to verify that and didn’t even know someone ordered ANOTHER ASGS named Dan Sullivan ( to replace the missing Ortlund? ).
So this all remains a huge mystery that needs to be solved.
Robert Ortlund and Dan Sullivan were ( apparently ) NEVER interviewed by ANYONE… and we don’t even have a ‘Unit Log’ from this ‘Dan Sullivan’ guy… even though we KNOW he was there and helping Brad Zettler.
What a mess.
WTKTT,
You posted: “… the EVIDENCE just shows multiple instances of the current ‘Air Attack’ just seeming to do whatever the hell he wanted to do, from the morning onward.
“AA Rory Collins even WAS ‘in touch’ with DIVSA Marsh and Collins still just did what HE wanted to do, and not even what a ‘Division Supervisor’ was telling him HE wanted to do.”
Rory Collins’ actions that day were fairly common and predictable, based on him working for the Douglas Forest Protective Association (DFPA) , in partnership with the Oregon Division of Forestry (ODF). He is an Assistant Unit Forester with the DFPA.
Those agencies both despise burning operations and burning out parallel and indirect lines because they are all about SAVING private and commercial landholdings for timber, by going direct, right on the fire’s edge. That is okay to have those goals, however, this can be very frustrating and dangerous, especially having to go direct against aggressive fire behavior and not burning ones’ lines out. This is Watch Out 11 – “Unburned fuel between you and the line.”
And that is why he was dropping retardant on the GMHS handline that day and frustrating Marsh. Collins was basically taking control of the operation and succeeded in wresting control of the strategy be forcing them to go direct once he doused their burnout attempts. SOP for these guys. No surprises here.
Regarding the ASGS or AOBD Resource Orders that day, I’m sure you checked ‘Block 13. User Documentation’ for WHO requested the order, however, all you’ll likely find is who processed the order under ‘Entered By.’ You’ll have to contact whomever entered the data, but they may have it somewhere on the Resource Order.
Regarding Roy Hall not knowing who he had and/or how many he had working in aviation that day and/or who/what was ordered, that is NOT surprising either. And besides, IC’s usually have a lot on their minds and something like that would maybe considered ‘mouse nuts’ with everything else going on. Filling the Resource Order would/should have been a delegated assignment though for someone in the Air Operations realm. In a Type 3 Organization, if the IC does not delegate the responsibility, then the repsonsibility falls back on him, meaning that HE is the ASGS and/or AOBD.
You posted: “Robert Ortlund and Dan Sullivan were ( apparently ) NEVER interviewed by ANYONE… and we don’t even have a ‘Unit Log’ from this ‘Dan Sullivan’ guy… even though we KNOW he was there and helping Brad Zettler.
“What a mess.”
All part of The Plan I say to avoid telling the truth. I call these ‘selective interviews’ so that ‘they’ can stay with their predetermined story line once ‘they’ have “first established a conclusion, then find the ‘facts’ to fit that predetermined conclusion. A mess indeed.
That person could have been identified in their IMT Standard Operating Procedure (SOP) or delegated by IC Hall, or talked about and then forgotten about, any number of things really.
**
** ROY HALL DIDN’T EVEN SEEM TO KNOW ASGS DAN SULLIVAN WAS
** THERE WORKING THE YARNELL HILL FIRE ON SUNDAY, JUNE 30, 2013
**
** SO WHO ACTUALLY SUBMITTED DAN SULLIVAN’S RESOURCE ORDER?
In his second ( of two ) ADOSH interviews… the ADOSH investigators specifically asked Yarnell Hill Fire IC Roy Hall WHO he had there at the fire in ‘Air Support’ overhead position(s).
From Roy Hall’s second ( of two ) ADOSH interviews… this one was on 10/15/2013…
Q4 = Dave Larsen, ADOSH / WFA Investigator ( Rest in Peace )
A = Roy Hall, Incident Commander at the Yarnell Fire on June 30, 2013
———————————————————————————-
951 Q4: Hey, Roy, I was – I was just wondering if how, ah, how is it that you integrate
952 air into your team operations?
953
954 A: Oh, we’ve got two good ones. I’m glad you asked that. We’ve got two of the
955 best, there – there are in the business, retired Federal, both of them. Bob
956 Ortlund, ah, retired district FMO and air attack and air ops branch director,
957 um, has spent a lot of time in a – in a, a, dispatching off an aircraft desk. Um,
958 he’s our air ops. The air support is a guy by the name of Brad Zettler, ah,
959 retired Federal, um, we recertified him a year ago on the wall of fire but he
960 had an extensive background in air support, helicopter management, helibase
961 management, ah, aircraft capability and limitations, and those were the two
962 guys on the fire.
—————————————————————————————-
So Roy Hall himself was only admitting to having TWO ‘Air Support’ people on the Yarnell Hill Fire ( Brad Zettler and Bob Ortlund )… and NEVER mentions anyone named ‘Dan Sullivan’.
But here again is ASGS Dan Sullivan’s official ‘Resource Order’ for the Yarnell Fire, first entered into the system at 9:30 AM PNT on Sunday morning, June 30, 2013…
From PDF page 141 of the ‘J- Resource Orders.pdf’ document.
————————————————–
Request number: O-30
Ordered Date/Time: 06/30/13 0934 ( 9:34 AM ) PNT
From: AZ-ADC ( Dispatch ) 800-309-7081
To: AZ-ADC
Qty: 1
Resource Requested: AIR SUPPORT GROUP SUPERVISOR (ASGS)
Needed Date/Time: 06/30/13 1100 ( 11:00 AM ) PNT
Deliver To: YARNELL HILL
From Unit: AZ-PDC
To Unit: AZ-ADC
Assigned Date/Time: 06/30/13 1010 ( 10:10 AM ) PNT
Resource Assigned Unit ID: AZ-PNF ( Arizona – Prescott National Forest )
Resource Assigned: Sullivan, Dan (AZ-PDC) [EFF/AD]
M/D Ind.: D
Estimated Time Of Departure: 07/01/13 1630 ( 4:30 PM ) PNT
Esitmated Time Of Arrival: 07/01/13 1650 ( 4:50 PM ) PNT
Released Date: 07/03/13 1238 ( 12:38 PM ) PNT
Released To: PHOENIX SKY HARBOR INTL (PHX)
Travel Mode: ( No entry )
Financial Code: AZ-A1S-130688 ( Yarnell Hill Fire )
Special Needs: NAME REQUEST FOR DAN SULLIVAN, RENTAL AOV, POV
Reporting Instructions: ICP MIDDLE CREEK SCHOOL IN PEEPLES
VALLEY 18912 HAYS RANCH ROAD, PEEPLES VALLEY AZ. REPORT
TO BRAD ZETTLER ( Yarnell Fire Helibase Manager )
————————————————–
Notice that whoever placed/requested that Resource Order for Dan Sullivan added SPECIFIC INSTRUCTIONS for him to ‘report’ to Brad Zeitler… whom Roy Hall WAS admitting was part of his ‘Air Suppot’ overhead in Yarnell that day.
And… once again… here Helibase Manager Brad Zeitler’s Unit Log which CONFIRMS that ASGS Dan Sullivan showed up in Yarnell right around 11:30 AM ( as his own Resource Order had requested him to )…
From Brad Zeitler’s Unit Log…
—————————————————–
1115 ( 11:15 AM )
Received contact information for the manager of Maughn Ranches, Met with Ranch Manager Don Glascow and advised that we needed to create a land use agreement with the ranch for helicopter operations. Also advised that the original helibase site could not meet out needs, and asked if he had any suggestions for an alternate site. He agreed to meet me back at the Incident Command Post for further discussion.
1130 ( 11:30 AM )
Dan Sullivan, a qualified Air Support Group Supervisor from the Prescott National Forest arrived and offered to assist.
1150 ( 11:50 PM )
Dan Sullivan and myself met with Don Glascow at the Incident Command Post and discussed an alternative helibase location. Don offered a private airstrip owned by the ranch. Dan said that he would check out the airstrip to see if it could safely meet our needs.
————————————————————–
Dan Sullivan was never mentioned again in Brad Zeitler’s Unit Log… nor does his name EVER appear in anyone else’s Unit Log ( or ADOSH testimony ).
So if Roy Hall himself didn’t even seem to KNOW someone named Dan Sullivan ( from the Prescott National Forest ) was even THERE working his fire that day… then WHO placed Dan Sullivan’s order THAT morning and was specifically telling him to ‘report’ to Brad Zeitler?
Followup…
** BRAD ZETTLER’S ADOSH INTERVIEW
Brad Zettler was also interviewed by ADOSH, and he DOES mention Dan Sullivan in his ADOSH interview, but no other information than what was also briefly mentioned in Zettler’s Unit Log.
NOTE: ADOSH transcript says his name was ‘Brad Zettler’, but his typed Unit Log on PDF page 25 of the Logs that were released ‘late’ by the SAIT says it was ‘Brad Zeitler’.
The Southwest Area Type 1 Incident Team Roster which is here…
https://sites.google.com/site/swaimt1/team-roster
…says it’s ‘Brad Zettler’, not Zeitler.
From Brad Zettler’s ADOSH interview on August 15, 2013.
Q1 = Barry Hicks, ADOSH Investigator
A = Brad Zettler, Helibase Manager in Yarnell on Sunday, June 30, 2013
———————————————————————————–
491 A: And so there was a person from the Prescott – another air support had come
492 down by the name of Dan Sullivan. And Dan and I were talking with…
493
494 Q1: Uh-huh.
495
496 A: …Don Glassgow, he’s the – he’s the ranch manager from the ranches.
497
498 Q1: Yeah.
499
500 A: Anyway Dan agreed to go – to go survey that site and he left to go look at that.
501 And we just kept the helicopters where they were.
502
503 Q1: Yeah. Yeah.
504
505 A: At that time and we were, you know…
506
507 Q1: Sure.
508
509 A: …trying to do it but we couldn’t…
510
511 Q1: Right.
512
513 A: …kind of had our times – hands tied.
514
515 Q1: So is that where you ended up with the?
516
517 A: No, it – it, uh – as the day progressed, we – we couldn’t – we couldn’t get an
518 answer back on, Dan didn’t like the – the airstrip.
519
520 Q1: The airstrip?
521
522 A: There was plenty of room but there was no access especially for larger
523 vehicles.
————————————————————————————
And just like in his ‘Unit Log’… after the mention of Dan Sullivan arriving and him going to ‘look’ at the Maughan Ranch airstrip as a possible Helibase… Brad Zettler never mentions this ‘Dan Sullivan’ person again in his ADOSH interview.
However… a little later in his ADOSH interview… Brad Zettler says something that directly contradicts what IC Roy Hall told them about ‘Bob Ortlund’ being there on June 30, 2013.
Roy told ADOSH Ortlund was here on June 30, 2013, along with Zettler, and that these were his two ‘Air Support’ people that Sunday.
But Brad Zettler informed ADOSH that Bob Ortlund was NOT there that Sunday, and that he didn’t show up until the NEXT day ( Monday, July 1, 2013 ).
NOTE: In the transcript below, the transcriber apparently thought they heard ‘Bob Orton’… but if you listen to the audio it seems clear that Barry Hicks said ‘Bob Ortlund’… and everybody knew who Barry was talking about, Brad Zettler included.
Q1 = Barry Hicks, ADOSH Investigator
A = Brad Zettler, Helibase Manager in Yarnell on Sunday, June 30, 2013
————————————————————–
1145 A: …trying to find a helibase and so I – I – as soon as the briefing was over I went
1146 and got in my truck (unintelligible).
1147
1148 Q1: Was – was Bob Orton already there?
1149
1150 A: No.
1151
1152 Q1: When did he show up?
1153
1154 A: The next day.
1155
1156 Q1: The next day?
1157
1158 A: Yeah.
1159
1160 Q1: Okay. So he didn’t get there till the next day so, uh – uh, so if they had a team
1161 briefing they did it with – without aviation being in there when they – when
1162 they did that since Bob wasn’t there.
1163
1164 A: Right. I – I don’t know if they had a briefing or not.
1165
1166 Q1: Okay.
————————————————————–
So regardless of how confused IC Roy Hall seemed to be about who was even working his fire… I wonder if Dan Sullivan’s ‘call up’ on Sunday morning was because Bob Ortlund could NOT make it there that day?
And someone ‘replaced’ Ortlund with Sullivan ( for that Sunday )… without IC Roy Hall even knowing about it?
That’s what Roy Hall’s ADOSH testimony would seem to have us believe.
Thanks WTKTT.
What you wrote downstream:
“So Dan Sullivan was NOT part of that original Type 2 SHORT Team order placed the night before.
He WAS part of Roy Hall’s frantic scramble to ‘ramp up’ on Sunday morning itself.
So I still am wondering if that ended up putting HIM in ‘limbo land’ by the time he showed up… just like what happened with his fellow PNF employees Jason Clawson, Aaron Hulburd and KC ‘Bucky’ Yowell?””
Interesting.
Since I STILL haven’t schlepped all my hard drives around the corner (for a variety of stupid reasons), I”m relegated to just REMEMBERING that there was a chart (pdf) published of the Incident Management Team on the fire on Sunday (that I know I have looked at and have saved on one of those five hard drives). Do you know how to find that?
I was assuming (yeah, yeah, we know about that) that, since Roy’s Team in 2014 included Dan Sullivan, it most likely did in 2013.
It’s really hard to find Incident Management Team rolls after the year they’re active. Which makes this even harder.
Heck, he could have even been a part of Tony Sciacca’s team, for all we know. But I kinda sorta doubt that, since he was on Hall’s Team the next year.
My guess is, now, that he was part of Bea Day’s team, given what you have posted.
Gary Olsen- did you leave message for me on Sonny’s cell?
If not a GARY left me a voicemail and said he would be reading InvestigativeMedia
???????????????
We figured it out Gary…
right on
calvin said JANUARY 13, 2016 AT 3:49 AM
Do you have any idea exactly how many aircraft or how many gallons of retardant were dropped on the YHF between the time we hear “Air support down there” and the time of deployment?
As we know, there was no retardant lines placed to protect Glen Isla or Yarnell in that timeframe
———————————————————————————————–
Via the Air Study Videos we have a very good record of the various drops on the fire during all of that time.
I’m writing this off the top of my head, and way past my bedtime, but I think your question is important.
Until the 4;30-ish drop that the SAIR incorrectly (imho) said Eric said ‘that’s where we want it,” the aerial fire-fighting was going on on the northeast and then east flanks of the fire. Firstly defending areas in the Model Creek Road area, and then in the Sickles Road Area.
After that, in the time framework you are speaking of, the aerial fire-fighting then turned it’s attention to the southwest part of the fire. They then managed to put in one line of retardant at around 4:30 (from, I think, about Shrine Road north-eastward), and then while they were lining up the DC-10 for a line continuing that, the Deployment happened.
After the deployment, they continued dropping retardant from the first line they put in all the way towards the northeast, to defend Yarnell.
The line Bravo 3 dropped, earlier in the day, across the bowl was basically in vain.
However, it looks to me that the lines dropped in the Model Creek Road area and across the top of Yarnell were successful, via the aerial photos in this article on this UK-based Daily Mail Website:
—————————————————————————————-
“Devastation left by ‘firestorm’ that killed 19 Arizona firefighters: Shocking aerial images show town burned to the ground by blaze”
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2353353/Arizona-wild-fires-pictures-Shocking-aerial-images-utter-devastation.html
You have to scroll down a bit to come to the actually quite interesting collection of aerial photos that show where the retardant lines stopped the fire. I’ve mapped almost all of these photos, by the way. I have absolutely no clue how they managed to obtain these photos.
So, imho, the story is…………complicated.
OK its more than past my bedtime. Goodnight.
PS. Given what I’ve seen in these aerial photos, it has always disturbed me that they didn’t start that line above Glen Illah. I don’t know why that was the case. I really don’t and it bothers me.
Thanks marti. I agree. I agree, and per Eric Pane bakers notes, the drops to protect yarnell were suppose to begin around 1550. And that is the same time we hear Able tell Marsh air support down there. And, as fucked up as the YIN seem to be, B33 seems to be saying they got a direct call from Marsh about the supposed that is exactly where we want it.
“B33 seems to be saying they got a direct call from Marsh about the supposed that is exactly where we want it.:
We’ve pretty much known forever that that wasn’t Eric saying that.
See below (or above?). It may, logically speaking, have been Dan Sullivan.
And yer welcome. Thanks for asking that. It took me longer than I intended to answer your question. And now look where we are!!!
Reply to Marti Reed post on January 15, 2016 at 4:57 am
>> Marti said…
>>
>> PS. Given what I’ve seen in these aerial photos, it has always disturbed
>> me that they didn’t start that line above Glen Illah.
Thomas French himself would later say ( over the Air-To-Air channel ) that that is what he WANTED to do… but he and John Burfiend wasted too much time ‘finishing up’ what they were doing on the NORTH end before (eventually) turning their attention to the SOUTH part of the Yarnell Hill Fire.
They lost the opportunity to ‘get under the column’ and do anything to protect most of Yarnell or any part of Glen Ilah because they had been too pre-occupied with finishing those retardant lines up in the Miner’s Camp Road and Model Creek Road areas ( even though the fire had already turned south and wasn’t really threatening those areas anymore ).
>> Marti also said…
>>
>> I don’t know why that was the case. I really don’t and it bothers me.
At 3:50 PM, just 8 minutes before he would depart the fire because his pilot was ‘timing out’… Air Attack Rory Collins called Thomas French and John Burfiend in ‘Bravo 33’ to inform them he was leaving… and he also TOLD them the fire was now “Headed for Yarnell” and they needed to “swing around and take a look at that”.
Thomas French responded with a “We’re headed that way”.
This is EXACTLY the time ( 3:50 PM ) that Todd Abel had just told Eric Marsh “We’ll get some Air Support down there ASAP”.
But Thomas French and John Burfiend did no such thing.
They simply STAYED up on the NORTH end of the fire for almost the next full HALF HOUR just ‘finishing up’ the retardant line work they had been doing in the Miner’s Camp Road and Model Creek Road area(s).
Air Attack Rory Collins left the fire ( at 3:58 PM ) with the full expectation that ‘Bravo 33′ had heard what he told them and that they were “headed that way” to see about defending Yarnell and Glen Ilah… but French and Burfiend did no such thing.
Here is that exact Air-To-Air conversation between Rory Collins and Thomas French circa 3:50 PM…
—————————————————————————————
+2:38 ( 1550.24 / 3:50.34 PM )
(AA – Rory Collins): Bravo three three… Air Attack.
+2:40 ( 1550.26 / 3:50.36 PM )
(B33 – French): Go ahead Air Attack.
+2:41 ( 1550.27 / 3:50.37 PM )
(AA – Rory Collins): Okay… if ya haven’t noticed they got a heck
of a wind shift here… ah… we’ve got a lot of fire headed over towards… ah…
Yarnell. Ya wanna swing around and take a look at that we’re gonna have to
check somethin’ there… either… shortly… I think. And also… uh… nine
one one, I believe, is off… uh… about 20 minutes out.
+2:58 ( 1550.44 / 3:50.44 PM )
(B33 – French): Copy… we’re headed that way.
+3:00 ( 1550.46 / 3:50.46 PM )
(AA – Rory Collins): Ground contact out there… ahhhh… I was talkin’ to… Alpha
+3:05 ( 1550.51 / 3:50.51 PM )
(B33 – French): Ground contact Alpha.
+3:10 ( 1550.56 / 3:50.56 PM )
(Tanker 413): And four one three is comin’ on scene… I’m on the south side of the ridge.
+3:15
(B33 – French): Okay… four one three… Bravo 33. I’m up at… uh… fifty seven I’m
gonna go to fifty eight. I gotcha in sight. Just standby for now.
Uh… If ya got me in sight I’m about your… uh… oh… two o’clock on the far north…
ah… west corner. I’m poppin’ smoke now. Ya got me?
————————————————————————-
So even right after being informed of the “heck of wind shift” and being told to “swing around and have a look”… and also being informed that the person to contact down there was ‘Division Alpha’…
…as soon as French got off that call with Collins he turned his attention back to making retardant drops on the NORTH end with Tanker 410.
VLAT 910 was about 20 minutes out… but even 20 minutes later… Thomas French still wanted to use the inbound VLAT to ‘finish up’ that work he was doing on the NORTH end before turning his attention to Yarnell.
So by the time Thomas French and John Burfiend actually got down to the SOUTH end of the fire ( almost a full HALF-HOUR after they had told Collins they were “headed that way” )… it was TOO LATE.
The column was now ‘leaning over’ and it was TOO LATE for them to get either ahead or underneath it to do anythinig to protect the majority of Yarnell or any part of Glen Ilah.
By the way… now that we KNOW Air Support Group Supervisor ( ASGS ) Dan Sullivan was right there in the Ranch House Restaurant / Glen Ilah area in this timeframe… then I wonder if HE might have been the one (supposedly) calling up to ‘Bravo 33’ circa 4:37 PM with that “That’s where we want retardant” radio message.
As ASGS… that is EXACTLY something he would have been likely to do.
Just barely waking up.
“By the way… now that we KNOW Air Support Group Supervisor ( ASGS ) Dan Sullivan was right there in the Ranch House Restaurant / Glen Ilah area in this timeframe… then I wonder if HE might have been the one (supposedly) calling up to ‘Bravo 33′ circa 4:37 PM with that “That’s where we want retardant” radio message.
As ASGS… that is EXACTLY something he would have been likely to do.”
Ayep. Can you compare the voices?
I can’t believe ADOSH didn’t interview him (I’ve always felt that way). …….Oh wait……………
I can’t believe the USFS Air Study crew wasn’t recording the Air to Ground radio channel. ………………….Oh wait…………………………………
MOAR COFFEE!
There is also an even stronger possibility now that the conversation we hear finishing between John Burfiend and ( WHO? ) on the A2G channel at the very start of the original Aaron Hulburd ‘Helmet Can’ video ( and just seconds before we hear Steed’s first psuedo-MAYDAY call ) very likely COULD have been this Air Support Group Supervisor (ASGS) Dan Sullivan guy talking to Burfiend.
The content of that conversation seems to be EXACTLY what some ASGS guy WOULD be talking about to an ‘Air Attack / Lead Plane’.
Someone was telling Burfiend WHERE they wanted the Air Operations to focus… and we HEAR Burfiend reporting back that they would “do the best we can but it’s gonna be hard with that valley and all that smoke”.
Someone needs to INTERVIEW this Dan Sullivan guy. Long overdue.
And it has ALWAYS been ODD that the only thing we hear at the start of that original Helmet Cam video is simply the END of that conversation that Burfiend was having with ???? someone.
We ( conveniently? ) never hear the voice of WHO Burfiend was talking TO, at that point.
I still say that if anyone was ‘chopping out’ parts of these Hulburd videos… the easiest ( and most hard to detect ) edits would be to just ‘chop off’ parts of them at either the beginning or the end of any particular video clip.
Could we really be looking at some actual massive attempt to HIDE the fact that this Dan Sullivan guy from the Prescott National Forest was ever there and/or ever actively participating in the Yarnell Hill Fire?
Including ( but not limited to? ) hiding any ‘recues’ he might have performed AND making sure his VOICE never appears on any publicly released video clips?
I would still love to see someone sit down with PNF employee Aaron Hulburd and go over each and every one of those released video clips and have him swear on any stack of books of his own choosing that nothing is ‘missing’ or has been ‘chopped off’ the starts or ends of ALL those video clips of his.
Dickson”s book states 30,000 gallons–I don’t know where he got that data.
Reply to Marti Reed post on January 14, 2016 at 12:32 am
>> Marti said…
>>
>> I. Just. Can’t. Even. I mean really. WHY?????????
>>
>> I’m completely mind-boggled.
As I (reluctantly) mentioned down below… one of the ONLY reasons I can think of for Gary Cordes to be sitting there telling ADOSH he performed a rescue that he did NOT do… is because it was DECIDED sometime beforehand ( by some individuals? ) that he SHOULD do that.
In other words… someone decided it was better for Gary Cordes to just take credit for BOTH of those rescues ( whether he did one or both of them or not ) just so that ASGS Dan Sullivan wouldn’t show up ‘on the radar’ as another person that needed to be ‘interviewed’.
There is really no doubt that a certain effort was being made to HIDE the fact that ANY Prescott National Forest employees where ever THERE working in Yarnell that day. I’m talking about Jason Clawson, Aaron Hulburd and KC ‘Bucky’ Yowell as well.
There are times ( when reading the SAIT YIN notes ), with all the various mis-spellings of THEIR names in that document whenever they were mentioned… that that might have actually been done on purpose just to make it HARD to tell they were even THERE.
So the same might be true for this Dan Sullivan guy.
Someone decided, for some reason, it was best to try and HIDE that fact that any Prescott National Forest employees were ever even THERE in Yarnell… to prevent anyone ( as in, ADOSH ) from even trying to ‘interview’ them.
They SUCCEEDED.
NO ONE from the ‘Prescott National Forest’ who was there working in Yarnell the day of the tragedy was EVER interviewed ADOSH.
ADOSH didn’t know to REQUEST those interviews because the SAIT did a bang-up job of hiding the fact that they WERE, in fact, there that day and ‘involved’ in what was happening.
>> Marti also said…
>>
>> So we’ve got Gary Cordes:
>>
>> 1) Telling Marsh and GM that Boulder Springs Ranch was some kind of a
>> larger-than-it-was “bomb-proof” safety zone.
Even almost 3 months AFTER the incident… Gary Cordes was still over-estimating the SIZE of the ‘safety zone’ ( in his ADOSH interview ) by more than EIGHT TO TEN TIMES.
It was only 3 to 3 and 1/2 acres, max… and Cordes was telling ADOSH it was upwards of 30 acres.
A = Gary Cordes, SPGS1 at the Yarnell Hill Fire… talking to ADOSH investigators…
—————————————————–
A: It’s a very large uh, 20 to 30 acre open site uh, that was real cleaned out and it was pretty – it was bomb proof.
—————————————————–
>> Marti also said…
>>
>> 2) Not giving that same “information” to Blue Ridge.
Correct.
Brian Frisby and Trueheart Brown had NO IDEA where the Boulder Springs Ranch even was, or that it had been established as the ‘pre-determined safety zone’ that morning ( by Cordes ) for Granite Mountain and any other crew working the same area.
>> Marti also said…
>>
>> 3) Co-masterminding (with Eric Marsh?) a Last Minute Hail Mary Plan (as the fire
>> was reversing direction) to put in a Dozer Line off of the top of Glen Illah to the
>> driveway of Boulder Springs Ranch (most likely).
From TFLDT(t) Tyson Esquibel’s Unit Log…
————————————————–
1445 ( 2:45 PM )
Met with Structure Group 2 ( Gary Cordes ). Plan to use TF2 ( Esquibel’s Task Force 2 ) resources to tie dozer line to rock outcrop on Mountain west of Shrine Road in Harper Canyon.
Blue Ridge IHC AND Granite Mountain IHC ( BOTH Type 1 Hotshot crews ) to improve dozer line.
1632 ( 4:32 PM )
St Group 1 ( Cordes ) request (1) engine to Boulder Spgs. ( and also says to make sure Granite Mountain gets out of there safely ).
————————————————–
From Cory Ball’s Unit Log…
——————————————————
1600
BRIHC one ( Brian Frisby ) informs Structure Group One ( Gary Cordes ) they are pushing engines everyone out of subdivision.
Structure group one ( Gary Cordes ) assigns me and one other to locate possibility of dozer line to southwest of Yarnell ( the Glen Ilah area ).
Acquire ATV ( lime-yellow ATV from Yarnell Fire Department ).
Travel into subdivision ( Glen Ilah ) back to Dozer line.
——————————————————
>> Marti also said…
>>
>> 4) Apparently, not saying a word to anybody, while the “rescue attempt” was
>> being conceived, in the parking lot of the Ranch House Restaurant,
>> of where he basically figured GM was.
Nope. ‘Apparently’ not.
Even though he seemed SURE where they were ( either already AT or just SHORT of the Boulder Springs Ranch )… Gary Cordes makes NO mention in his ADOSH interview of ever telling ANYONE who was trying to figure out where to start looking for Granite Mountain what he was so SURE of that he said “Bullshit” to Captain Reyes… in that same parking lot… just feet away from those same FFs trying to desperately figure out where to start looking for Granite Mountain.
At that moment… for all anyone knew… more than half those men COULD have been still more than half-alive… and there is no evidence Gary Cordes made any attempt to help anyone try to figure out where to start looking for them.
>> Marti also said…
>>
>> 5) Claiming that he rescued these two people when, according to one of them, it
>> wasn’t him that did that, but another fire-fighter that turns out to be the
>> fricken Air Support Group Supervisor Dan Sullivan.
See above. The only thing that comes to mind ( to me ) at the moment is that he was TOLD to take credit for something he didn’t do just to try and hide that fact that Prescott National Forest employee Dan Sullivan was even THERE in Yarnell that day.
>> Marti also said…
>>
>> 6) Accepting a big-time award for “doing that” which he didn’t do, and Dan Sullivan
>> hasn’t said a word about any of this.
>>
>> I am completely mystified.
The simple solution is for someone to INTERVIEW Dan Sullivan.
But actually… that might not be so simple… given that he is USFS.
At this point, it might be easier to get another interview with “El Chapo” that it would be for anyone to get Dan Sullivan to say a word about any of this.
I wonder if Sean Penn is free?
I’ve got some spare ‘burner phones’ if thats what it might take to penetrate the USFS and actually get an interview with one of its employees.
YOU SAID WWTKTT: I wonder if Sean Penn is free?
MY REPLY: Sean Penn and Val Kilmer eat at my local eatery called Nichols West in Congress so maybe I will bump into him again there-
Small world, eh.
Awesome, Joy.
Sean Penn should do a documentary about YOU.
Marti…what?
Me?
Yawn.
That was a great bedtime campfire story.
About RTS…I do have to agree with him being there is no photo or physical evidence in regards to Bryan Smith recollections and due to other retired firefighters we knew he retired and he may be unapproachable and untouchable just like many who need to be talked to like bulldozer operator Paul Morin
I also think the documentary should reflect all even let me use Bob Power’s word..even MF that feel they will show you material about the fire but at an unusual manner like they hold on to gold and it sits on a MF PC and not seen by any not even the person who took it has seen it since a year and a half so I guess I don’t comprehend. I can’t sleep. I am not sure if I am nearing or gearing to the end of my time on the topic of yhf and I guess just frustrated that homeowners put a lot of trust in docs and lawyers when they should if sent their lawyers and investigators and I m their photo and accounts… I really do hate receiving or grabbing material to see how many do not give a shit…Maybe talking out of my ass right now overly tired.
Thanks for pulling my ruminations up to the top, WTKTT.
“The only thing that comes to mind ( to me ) at the moment is that he was TOLD to take credit for something he didn’t do just to try and hide that fact that Prescott National Forest employee Dan Sullivan was even THERE in Yarnell that day.”
This still doesn’t make any sense to me. He was a fricken member of the Incident Management Team. This is not the same thing as the Three Prescoteers, who were there via Bea Day’s Team, a wholly conflicted part of the story.
There was no conflict like that AT ALL regarding his being there on that fire.
Thinking out loud here.
So the USFS decided to (in order to protect its employees, after the post-Thirty-Mile-Fire debacle and the subsequent law) circle its wagons. I understand that. I don’t agree with it (especially in regards to various machinations involving the Blue Ridge Hotshots and maybe also the USFS crew on the Twisp River Fire this summer) in terms of getting the truth out (that needs to be gotten out in order to discuss what needs to be Lessons Learned regarding FireFighter safety and survival. But I can understand it, all things litigiously understood.
But seriously. I still can’t fathom this. There was absolutely nothing “to hide” in this (as they might have chosen to hide in the Blue Ridge testimonies and logs). There was nothing to “protect.”
A USFS guy, who was a part of the totally publicly documented Incident Management Team did this rescue of these people in Glen Ilah, and, somehow someone decided this had to be camouflaged and re-narrated into a narrative that Gary Cordes did it?
I just can’t fathom this.
I could possibly understand how it might have been that Dan Sullivan (for whatever reasons) might have not wanted this story to become a Big Fuckin Deal. But then to have taken his story and wrapped around Gary Cordes as a Big Fuckin Deal, and have him accepting all the kudos and rah-rahs and the award for this???????
Nothing of this is making any sense, whatsoever, to me, at all.
I agree marti
Marti… I’m on a ‘dumbphone’ again so have to keep this short… but I believe there IS a chance that ASGS Dan Sullivan was in the same ‘limbo boat’ that the other PNF employees Jason Clawson, Aaron Hulburd and KC ‘Bucky’ Howell were that day. They were responding to Yarnell just based on those frantic phone calls Roy Hall started making after HE got to Yarnell… but by the time they arrived the decision had already been made to scrap the bump up to Bea Day’s Type 2 roster and go a step above to a full Type 1 team.
So it’s possible Dan Sullivan was just ‘freelancing’ on the fire the same way Clawson, Hulburd and Howell were.
Hence… (perhaps?)… someone (USFS stooge Dudley?) feeling the need to HIDE the fact that he was even there and participating… the same way the SAIT seemed to be trying to HIDE the presence and participation of Clawson, Hulburd and Howell?
dumbphone typos above, sorry.
It’s Yowell, not Howell.
KC ‘Bucky’ Yowell
Dan Sullivan wasn’t “free-lancing,”
He was on Roy Hall’s (not Bea Day’s) Incident Management Team. Even in 2014 at Asayii. And in 2015 he was still on that IMT, although the IC spot had been passed on to Nate Barrett (google Whitetail Sawmill Fire).
But everything else you are saying stands to reason.
Thanks, Maria Cantwell!
Ah… okay. Still on a ‘dumbphone’ and not near any notes… but I believe Dan Sullivan’s original Resource Order wasn’t even initiated until around 10:30 AM on Sunday morning. In other words… it was NOT initiated the night BEFORE as part of the official ‘Type 2 SHORT Team’ order… but was actually just part of that frantic “I need more help down here” round of phone calls that Roy Hall was making after ARRIVING in Yarnell?
Followup
Actually… I was able to scroll Waaaay down to where I posted Dan Sullivan’s resource order and double-check the time(s).
It was order number O-30, first entered into the system at 9:34 PNT on Sunday morning, June 30, 2013… with an ‘expected to be at work’ time of 11:00 AM PNT that same day.
So Dan Sullivan was NOT part of that original Type 2 SHORT Team order placed the night before.
He WAS part of Roy Hall’s frantic scramble to ‘ramp up’ on Sunday morning itself.
So I still am wondering if that ended up putting HIM in ‘limbo land’ by the time he showed up… just like what happened with his fellow PNF employees Jason Clawson, Aaron Hulburd and KC ‘Bucky’ Yowell?
Copy. More later, upstream.
Marti,
Thank you!
The entire ‘Dan Sullivan’ Fairy Tale, contrived from extremely tenuous and imagined connections and conversations, from a journey down a steep, slippery slope makes absolutely NO sense to me either.
I would have thought that WTKTT and other Dan Sullivan Fairy Tale supporters would be able to form an actual logically valid and well-supported argument by now.
Well, RTS, even though we can’t be CERTAIN yet as to exactly who rescued those two was, there’s no doubt that it wasn’t Gary Cordes. There’s no way to confuse his red and white truck with a green forest service truck.
What do you have to say about that?
Well Marti,
I’m not sure what to say about the truck color issue.
I do know that Gary Cordes told a a Fire Chief friend of his that, notwithstanding the GMHS deployments and fatalities and rescue missions, and more, that he (Cordes) had to keep fighting fire, saving structures and rescuing citizens, some with serious burns. Cordes said he couldn’t just stop and disengage, there was serious work to be done.
I do know that Bryan said the WFF that allegedly rescued him had a beard, yet Dan Sullivan has NO beard.
Yet, many are strongly concluding that the rescuer was Dan Sullivan even though he has NO beard.
Reply to Robert the Second (RTS) post
on January 16, 2016 at 8:35 pm
>> RTS said…
>>
>> I’m not sure what to say about the truck color issue.
Then here’s a suggestion…
“It does seem VERY unlikely that someone (anyone) could be THAT mistaken about such a major detail… regardless of the stress they might have been under”.
>> RTS also said…
>>
>> I do know that Gary Cordes told a a Fire Chief friend of his
Who?… NAME, please.
>> RTS also said…
>>
>> I do know that Bryan said the WFF that allegedly
>> rescued him had a beard, yet Dan Sullivan has NO beard.
In what ‘timeframe’ are YOU now ‘asserting’ ( with such seeming assurance ) that Dan Sullivan “had NO beard”?
>> RTS also said…
>>
>> Yet, many are strongly concluding that the rescuer
>> was Dan Sullivan, even though he has no beard.
You either missed Joy’s recent post,
or you are choosing to ignore it.
‘Many’ are now ‘concluding’ that the ‘rescuer was Dan Sullivan’… because the actual person that was RESCUED has POSITIVELY IDENTIFIED him as the one doing it ( and NOT Gary Cordes ).
And that was also ( definitely ) ‘with or without beard’.
Just in case you DID miss it…
>> On January 13, 2016 at 7:45 pm, Joy Collura said…
>>
>> I spent 5:33pm-7:08pm with Bryan Smith and his wife Vivian
>> to CONFIRM the recent photos and videos.
>>
>> #1. I showed many types of material of Gary Cordes
>> from photos to videos to text articles—IT IS WITH FIRM
>> CONFIRMATION NOT GARY CORDES THAT SAVED BRYAN
>> SMITH AND PEARL MOORE.
>>
>> #2. The vehicle is SPOT ON IT. No doubts. At +5:37 ( out
>> of 7:52 ) ( In this video… )
>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XCfqkN3r3T4
>>
>> #3. Dan Sullivan. We showed everyone’s IM videos as
>> well ( the ones containing photos of Dan Sullivan ).
>> He ( Bryan Smith ) says not only does he FEEL IT —
>> he KNOWS it was Dan Sullivan… but he had a beard
>> that day.
Sonny then CONFIRMS the CONFIRMATION…
>> WTKTT asked…
>>
>> Just to be CLEAR… are you NOW saying that
>> Mr. Bryan Smith has POSITIVELY IDENTIFIED
>> Mr. Dan Sullivan as the one who actually
>> rescued him and his cousin Pearl Moore,
>> on June 30, 2013?
>> Sonny responded…
>>
>> YES.
>>
>> HE SAID THE MAN HAD A BEARD /
>> FACIAL HAIR ( on June 30, 2013 ).
Also have a look at this newly posted YouTube video…
http://youtu.be/27EPGgtLK7g
YouTube ‘About’ information…
—————————————————————
Various photos of Dan Sullivan, who was hired to be an ASGS at the Yarnell Hill Fire on June 30, 2013… including photos of the all-aquamarine ‘Prescott National Forest’ 4-door vehicle he was supposedly driving that day, and some photos of him (perhaps) standing near an ambulance in the Ranch House Restaurant parking lot.
—————————————————————
The person shown standing next to the AMBULANCE in Tom Story’s Ranch House Restaurant parking lot photos is a ‘close match’ for the SAME person that Bryan Smith has now POSITIVELY IDENTIFIED as ‘Dan Sullivan’, of the ‘Prescott National Forest Fire Center’.
He has a ball cap… AND a ‘beard’ ( on THAT day, June 30, 2013 ), just as Bryan Smith described.
Your ‘problem’ is that even following this ‘confirmation’ from Mr. Bryan Smith, you simply don’t ‘believe’ him.
Fine. Whatever. I ( me, personally ) have no reason ( at this time ) to NOT believe him.
And for anyone who DOES believe that Bryan Smith has now identified the person who actually ‘saved’ him that day… that now also means Arizona Wildfire Academy’s “Firefighter of the Year for 2013”, Gary Cordes, was LYING to ADOSH investigators on September 11, 2013.
WTKTT,
You posted: “Who?… NAME, please.” regarding Gary Cordes.
My reply is that you will get NO name from me.
I guess I’ll have to concede on Dan Sullivan having a beard. The Dan Sullivan I know had no beard.
The statement that none of the FS people were interviewed might have its reasons. One of the things Joy uncovered was that reliable witness discussed with us that a certain official was barking out orders on the Peeples Valley end. This was a federal official — and doing this while it was a State land fire. Perhaps that individual does not want his name out there and who would if he had anything to do with the Yarnell Hill incident. I can say he is the wise one to keep a low profile and the investigators are carless not to have interviewed these forest men. Don’t these people wish all this would be accepted as they arranged it. Little Red Riding Hood isn’t that nicely garbed sheep really sheep shit.
Joy’s attempt to get premission to use photos was not of much avail. I am afraid some citizens have other motives for keeping their photos secret. Rather than help with the truth they might think there is financial gain or perhaps notoriety to be gained by holding on to them, Maybe they are right, Donut seems to have done well by keeping his mouth shut;
Copy.
“One of the things Joy uncovered was that reliable witness discussed with us that a certain official was barking out orders on the Peeples Valley end. This was a federal official — and doing this while it was a State land fire.”
Interesting.
Reply to Woodsman post on
January 14, 2016 at 1:10 am
>> Woodsman said…
>>
>> Was Cordes the one, upon being told by (someone?) at the ranch house
>> restaurant parking lot that GM deployed, who said something like,
>> “bullshit, they had plenty of time to get there.”??
>>
>> Can someone ‘clean up’ that part for me? Thanks,
>> On January 14, 2016 at 9:54 am, Marti replied…
>>
>> Yes.
From SPGS1 Gary Cordes’ one-and-only ADOSH interview on September 11, 2013…
Q1 = Barry Hicks, ADOSH investigator
A = Gary Cordes, SPGS1 in Yarnell on June 30, 2013
——————————————————-
Q1: Okay. Um, so uh, at, at some point um, air uh, during all of this, um, um, how did you uh, how did you hear of the uh, deployments?
A: That was back when I met with the group uh, before I went in to do the rescues, uh, when I met with Engine 59. It was Engine 59 that told me that they had transmitted over the radio, over air to ground that they had deployed and I, and I, it was Charlie Reyes whose the, whose the engine boss down there and I told him BS, that uh, they didn’t need to deploy ‘cause the safety’s, they were in their safety zone and it was bomb proof and he said no, they never got – made it there, they got cut off. And that’s when I knew obviously something bad had most likely occurred.
Q1: Okay. Um, so there was no, there was no question in your mind though that when, when Eric indicated he was going to the safety zone, he wasn’t talking about the black, he was talking about the, the Helm Ranch?
A: Yes
——————————————————-
At another point in the same interview with Cordes…
——————————————————-
Q1: Uh, he ( Eric Marsh ) tells air attack that he’s going to his designated, pre-designated safety zone…
A: Right.
Q1: …and he doesn’t say where that is, he just says, safety zone?
A: Right.
Q1: And so your assumption is…
A: He had plenty of time to get there and, and he was headed to the Boulder Springs Ranch.
——————————————————-
SPGS1 Gary Cordes was the ONLY person from the ‘fire command’ ranks at Yarnell who admitted ( to investigators ) that he never had ANY doubts at all that Granite Mountain was NOT ‘in the safe black’ anymore and that they were, in fact, heading towards the Boulder Springs Ranch during the critical timeframe afternoon.
The original SAIR report had this this to say about whether anyone really KNEW Granite Mountain had, indeed, ‘left the black’ and whether anyone really KNEW where they were going…
On PDF page 9 of the original SAIR document…
——————————————————–
Although much communication occurred among crews throughout the day, few people understood Granite Mountain’s intentions, movements, and location, once they left the black. The Team believes this is due to brief, informal, and vague radio transmissions and talkarounds that can occur during wildland fire communications. Based on radio conversations, Operations and other resources had concluded the Granite Mountain IHC was located in the black, near the ridge top where they had started that morning. This resulted in confusion about the crew’s actual location at the time of search and rescue.
——————————————————–
** Key phrase…
“few people understood Granite Mountain’s intentions, movements, and location, once they left the black.”
Keyword: FEW ( people ).
As in… SOME people ( like Cordes ) DID KNOW their ‘intentions, movements and location… once they left the black”, and the SAIT KNEW that these SOME PEOPLE ( like Cordes ) KNEW it. They just didn’t want to talk about that because it didn’t fit their pre-determined narrative.
That piece of ‘SAIR speak’ is right up there with them also saying they had ALMOST no evidence of direct communications with Granite Mountain.
ALMOST? That still means they DID have evidence of ‘direct communications’ with Granite Mountain during their alleged ’30 minute blackout’… but they didn’t want to talk about that, either, for the same reasons. Evidence like that didn’t ‘fit’ their pre-determined narrative.
** Key phrase…
“Based on radio conversations, Operations and other resources had concluded the Granite Mountain IHC was located in the black, near the ridge top where they had started that morning.”
So even in the same paragraph… the SAIT decided to ignore their own statement that SOME PEOPLE KNEW exactly where GM was going, and they finish that same paragraph with a carte-blanche “Operations and other resources had concluded they were in the black, near the ridge top”.
That was NEVER where SPGS1 Gary Cordes thought they were, in the timeframe in question.
Gary Cordes met with OPS2 Paul Musser face-to-face there on the side of Highway 89 AFTER the radio communications that Cordes mentions above to ADOSH which convinced HIM that Granite was, in fact, “on their way to the Boulder Springs Ranch” in that timeframe.
We’re supposed to believe Cordes didn’t mention this to Musser, when the actual PURPOSE of their face-to-face on Highway 89 was to determine ‘who was where’ and what ‘resources’ could be brought to bear in Yarnell?
Yea, right.
** Key phrase ( from the SAIT )…
“This resulted in confusion about the crew’s actual location at the time of search and rescue”.
The “This” part of that SAIR statement is referring to THEIR conclusion that they had no idea where to even start looking for Granite Mountain simply because of ‘bad radio communications and talkaround”.
But there is SPGS1 Gary Cordes telling ADOSH he was so SURE they had already made it to their ‘pre-determined safety zone’ at the Boulder Springs Ranch that his initial reaction to being informed by Captain Reyes they had ‘deployed’ was ( direct quote from Cordes himself ) “BS, that uh, they didn’t need to deploy ‘cause the safety’s, they were in their safety zone and it was bomb proof”
The fact that this is what SPGS1 Gary Cordes believed is also totally backed up by the other evidence of the captured radio conversation with TLFD(t) Tyson Esquibel, a few minutes before the deployment radio traffic.
Cordes TOLD Esquibel to send ‘some engines’ to the Boulder Springs Ranch and also specifically told him to “make sure Granite gets out of there safely”.
Captain Reyes informed Gary Cordes of the ‘deployment’ right there in the parking lot of the Ranch House Restaurant… where we see that group of FFs already huddled and desperately trying to organize a ground rescue mission… and desperately trying to figure out WHERE to even START looking for Granite Mountain.
But ( apparently )… even after being told by Reyes about the ‘deployment’… Gary Cordes made NO attempt to go over and tell this ‘ground rescue mission’ what he KNEW… and what he seemed so SURE of that he would say “Bullshit” to Reyes.
We’re supposed to now believe that, rather than do THAT, Gary Cordes just took off from the RHR parking lot and now explains his absence from those ‘ground rescue mission’ planning operations with stories about going to do RESCUES that there is now evidence he didn’t even do?
For all anyone knew… during those critical moments in the Ranch House Restaurant parking lot… more than half those men COULD have still been more than half-alive ‘out there somewhere’.
And Cordes doesn’t even bother to TELL them what he was so SURE of?
That Granite Mountain MUST have been ( as he was so sure of ) either VERY close to, or had already ARRIVED at this place out at the west end of Glen Ilah called the ‘Boulder Springs Ranch’?
Big fat WTF.
( NOTE: I wish we could increase the FONT size here and do BOLDFACE… because that’s what I would do with that WTF on the line above ).
WTKTT:
Thank you for clearing all of that up for me. Following the facts to their logical conclusion sure is getting ugly…and it’s probably just the beginning. Good work.
Not necessarily addressed to you:
I think there is a tendency towards FS protecting their own (which I can understand). I know the culture, have worked in it, and there are some really talented firefighters in ‘the business.’ I respect the years of work people like Bob and RTS have put into it but I don’t idolize them (no Joy, I’m not going to stand at attention for them or salute them or whatever.) I agree with B/RTS that by GM agreeing to move how and where they did OR by coming up with that all on their own, is what killed them, but (here is where I disagree with them) if there’s more to the story, it SHOULD come out! What I don’t agree with is that’s the end of the story. What I really don’t understand is why all the anger (MF, Go to hell, etc) towards people presenting facts and pursuing the complete truth. I don’t know what the harm is unless someone is so ‘entrenched’ in the federal wildfire business, that they really get uncomfortable when regular folks start asking questions about ‘the business’. It became ‘plan B’ when the public was denied the truth in the first place…to do what we are doing here. If leadership screwed up and helped kill firefighters, they need to be out of the business (depending on the magnitude of the fuck up.)
Joy, great work interviewing Bryan. Oh, I see he being discredited here…actually by someone you think we should ‘stand at attention’ for…doesn’t surprise me . Keep up the good work and don’t let going to court intimidate you. You can’t be convicted of a crime if you don’t commit one.
Woodsman
YOU SAID:
You can’t be convicted of a crime if you don’t commit one.
MY REPLY:
Have you been through the YAVAPAI COUNTY court system—
let me enclose a link-
I know alot of people that would say that is the way it should be your statement but not how it is…
http://www.examiner.com/article/cronyism-nepotism-and-favoritism-a-small-town-courthouse
Woodsman
First and foremost I worked my way up thru the FF ranks I am not a a expert nor do I expect you or any on to bow to me.
My feud with WTKTT has been of and on for 2 and a half years.
It came to a head this past couple of months.
If BR which I was not protecting but asking for WTKTT to show specifics that they were almost trapped and that there was none.
WTKTT thinks the entire Federal Fire organization is unsafe I disagree
For several reasons. Had you followed this thread through out you would see I have not been complacent to the FS or BLM including the Fire my Father was killed on
I am a 33 year on the ground FF and I have a long history of disagreeing with Supervisors I have won a few and lost a few.
I got mad and I am still mad at WTKTT snippet remarks on here during his lectures and info posts it has been happening a long time to me and others. When it is no longer a discussion but his personal vendetta he will and has started his arrogant attacks on me and others.
Thus I finally got to the name calling and also like RTS I will not respond to him again personally.
Woodsman I respect you as a FF and what you say Believe that.
Yes I am also deeply FS Green My dad started in the FS when I was 5.
I have been associated with the FS as a child 13 years living in the woods and FS compounds to making the FS a carrier 34 years to drawing a FF Gov. retirement for 23 years many of my close friends Retired and working are FS.
So yes I am part of that Thin Green Line and proud of it and yes I can get pissed if I think some one is pushing the Limits in their remarks. Put that into perspective of where I come from.
What I said about WTKTT still stands he is a MF and he can Go to hell in my book I do not respect him any more and I could care less what he thinks of me.
Just like the person Called Elisabeth. WTKTT out wore his welcome with me.
Woodsman,
You posted a reply to WTKTT: “Following the FACTS to their logical conclusion sure is getting ugly…and it’s probably just the beginning. Good work.”
I have issue with those that are so sure that the entire Dan Sullivan and Gary Cordes debacle is based on FACTS. I contend that it is NOT based on facts, but very flimsy, tenuous, and weak ‘evidence.’ Even the word ‘evidence’ may be too strong here. I believe that it’s possible (lawyers like to say that ‘anything is possible’), NOT very likely that any of it occurred as he claims.
I contend it falls into the Logical Fallacy of ‘Appeal to Ignorance — the claim that whatever has not been proved false must be true, and vice versa.’ Such is the case with the entire Dan Sullivan and Gary Cordes Fairy Tale.
You also posted: “but (here is where I disagree with them) if there’s more to the story, it SHOULD come out!”
So then, it appears that you are afraid to post this directly to myself or Bob Powers, referring to us as ‘THEM,’ and instead appear to be sucking up to WTKTT. Your prerogative.
You posted in conclusion to Joy with reference to her friend Bryan: “Oh, I see he being discredited here…actually by someone you think we should ‘stand at attention’ for…doesn’t surprise me .”
First, I am NOT ‘discrediting’ him as you allege, just calling into question what she claims he saw and heard and such. Nothing wrong with that. Secondly, once again, it appears that you are afraid to post this directly to myself, and instead refer to me as ”SOMEONE YOU THINK WE SHOULD ‘STAND AT ATTENTION FOR.’ What? You don’t have the stones to post/reply directly to me? Once again, your prerogative.
I thought you were above being an obsequious sycophant.
RTS,
I ain’t afraid of nobody. How’s that for grammar?
Look, we disagree. It’s cool. Makes life interesting.
Bob (Mr. RTS sir, if it’s OK with you, I;m going to use one post to reply to more than one person, Gosh, I hope that’s alright…someone might think I’m trying to avoid somebody…………..eyeroll…………..
I completely understand, Bob. You are someone I respect and I always appreciate what you have to say. I would like to sit down with you and have a beer – I know I could learn something. Seriously, thank you for your service and sacrifice.
Woodsman
Woodsman,
Dazed and confused?
You realize that Bob (Bob Powers) and Robert the Second (RTS) are TWO separate people, right?
Because here – you posted: “Bob (Mr. RTS sir” and here “I completely understand, Bob.” it’s as if you think Bob and RTS are one and the same.
Interesting Concept
Ill have to think about that????
Just for thought true name—-Robert F. Powers
Not—- Robert T. Second
And the beat goes on.
I spent 5:33pm-7:08pm with Bryan Smith and his wife Vivian to CONFIRM the recent photos and videos.
#1. I showed many types of material of Gary Cordes from photos to videos to text articles—IT IS WITH FIRM CONFIRMATION NOT GARY CORDES THAT SAVED BRYAN SMITH AND PEARL MOORE and both Bryan and Vivian Smith encourage Gary to do a reunion with them.
#2. The vehicle is SPOT ON IT. No doubts.
5:37 out 7:52
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XCfqkN3r3T4
#3. Dan Sullivan. We showed everyone’s IM videos as well as ran a background and history cached check and he says not only does he FEEL IT—he knows it was Dan Sullivan but he had a beard that day.
On way home I stopped by Jim’s to take a look at his Saturday videos but no answer— try again another time.
Glad I was able to get that video to you on time, Joy. It was a scramble.
This really is mind-boggling.
thank you Marti
You are totally welcome. So glad I was able to help with this.
Reply to Joy A. Collura post on January 13, 2016 at 7:45 pm
>> Joy A. Collura said…
>>
>> I spent 5:33pm-7:08pm with Bryan Smith and his wife Vivian
>> to CONFIRM the recent photos and videos.
>>
>> #1. I showed many types of material of Gary Cordes from photos to
>> videos to text articles—IT IS WITH FIRM CONFIRMATION NOT GARY
>> CORDES THAT SAVED BRYAN SMITH AND PEARL MOORE and both
>> Bryan and Vivian Smith encourage Gary to do a reunion with them.
Thank you, Joy.
So that means that unless there was some OTHER ‘rescue’ back there in Glen Ilah that afternoon that ended up with almost 100 percent IDENTICAL circumstances AND details to what happened to Bryan Smith and Pearl Moore…
…then Arizona Fire Academy’s “Firefighter of the Year for 2013” award winner, Gary Cordes, was completely LYING to ADOSH investigators about that second rescue he says HE performed ( and was one of the ones for which he was given the award ).
>> Joy A. Collura also said…
>>
>> #2. The vehicle is SPOT ON IT. No doubts.
>> 5:37 out 7:52
>>
>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XCfqkN3r3T4
The Prescott Daily Courier ran an article about a grass fire near the Prescott Airport on April 7, 2014. One of the photographs accompanying that article shows the Prescott National Forest’s ‘Prescott Aviation/Fire Center’ there at the airport.
The same vehicle from the GM funeral procession that you are now saying is SPOT ON ( and the one that actually did rescue Bryan and Pearl ) is in that same photograph that accompanies that article, parked in one of the parking spaces adjacent to the ‘Prescott Fire/Aviation Center’ there at the Prescott Airport.
If Dan Sullivan worked as an ‘Air Support’ person for the Prescott National Forest ( as Brad Zeitler’s Unit Log says he did )… then that is most likely WHERE Dan Sullivan worked.
The Prescott Daily Courier
Article Title: Grass fire ignites near airport
Published: 5/7/2014 6:00:00 AM
http://dcourier.com/main.asp?SectionID=1&SubsectionID=1&ArticleID=131418
Second photograph on the page.
THREE ‘all-aquamarine’ 4-door SUV/Suburban-style vehicles parked right outside this ‘Prescott National Forest Fire/Aviation Center’… including one that is an exact match for the vehicle seen at +5:37 (out +7:52) in the GM funeral procession video up above.
So that would just seem to be even MORE proof that the person who was driving that vehicle that actually rescued Bryan and Peral was *most* likely ASGS Dan Sullivan, from the Prescott National Forest.
>> Joy A. Collura also said…
>>
>> #3. Dan Sullivan. We showed everyone’s IM videos as well as ran a
>> background and history cached check and he says not only does
>> he FEEL IT—he knows it was Dan Sullivan but he had a beard that day.
I think that one got away from you just a little, Joy.
Just to be CLEAR… are you NOW saying that Mr. Bryan Smith has positively identified Mr. Dan Sullivan as the one who actually rescued him and his cousin Pearl Moore, on June 30, 2013?
YES. HE SAID THE MAN HAD A BEARD/FACIAL HAIR. HE WANTS TO MEET DAN WITH GARY CORDES—
Thank you, Sonny.
So that’s it then.
“Firefighter of the Year for 2013” Gary Cordes was LYING to Arizona State ADOSH investigators during his interview.
ASGS ( Air Support Group Supervisor ) Dan Sullivan, who was working for the Prescott National Forest ( and a FEDERAL employee ) on June 30, 2013, was the one who ACTUALLY saved Bryan Smith and Pearl Moore.
Now for the “slowly I turned moment”.
WHY would he stoop to that?
Was he ASKED to ‘take credit’ for that… just so Dan Sullivan himself would NOT be ‘identified’ as the person making that rescue?
The way Gary Cordes related the DETAILS of that rescue ( verbally, and without notes ) to ADOSH during his interview… it’s almost like he had ‘rehearsed the story’ beforehand in order to actually get all those ‘details’ correct.
Very strange.
It also now calls into question pretty much EVERYTHING else Gary Cordes might have been saying during that same interview.
If Cordes was so ready to LIE about this ‘rescue’… then what ELSE was he LYING about during the SAME interview?
And WHY?
Followup…
And if anyone was ever “rolling their eyes” and wondering WHY some of us felt it was so important to get ‘down in the weeds’ and do the best we could to identify WHO was driving WHAT vehicle that day in Yarnell…
…then wonder no more.
THIS is EXACTLY why that kind of information can be very IMPORTANT.
It can help to VERIFY other pieces of evidence… and find out ( like we just did ) whether someone was LYING to investigators, or not.
WTKTT,
So let me get this straight…in 49 hours and 2 minutes you all figured out that someone that claimed to make a rescue (and got an award for it) actually did not, Identified the real rescuer, the vehicle they were driving at the time, with a corroboration from the victim? ….pretty gosh-darned impressive!!
One never knows where the search for ‘the rest of the story’ will lead. Amazing.
Woodsman
Reply to Woodsman post on
January 13, 2016 at 11:32 pm
>> Woodsman said…
>>
>> So let me get this straight…in 49 hours and 2
>> minutes you all figured out that someone that
>> claimed to make a rescue (and got an award for it)
>> actually did not,
Not just any ‘someone’.
SPGS1 Gary Cordes.
He is now firmly in that same ‘club’ as SAIT Co-Lead Mike Dudley.
People that have not only been caught LYING with their pants down… but their pants are also fully on-fire down around their ankles.
Gary Cordes remains one of the KEY WITNESSES to this tragedy… and not EVERYTHING he might have been saying to investigators needs to be called into question.
If ( as we have just proved ) he was so ready and willing to LIE to Arizona State investigators about his actual involvement in ‘rescues’ that day…
…then what ELSE was he LYING about during that SAME interview?
And WHY?
Whoops… typo up above.
I typed ‘not’ where I meant to type ‘now’.
Paragraph above SHOULD have read like this…
——————————————-
Gary Cordes remains one of the KEY WITNESSES to this tragedy… and now EVERYTHING he might have been saying to investigators needs to be called into question.
——————————————–
“If ( as we have just proved ) he was so ready and willing to LIE to Arizona State investigators about his actual involvement in ‘rescues’ that day…
…then what ELSE was he LYING about during that SAME interview?
And WHY?”
Exactly. See what I’ve written below.
I. Just. Can’t. Even. I mean really. WHY?????????
I’m completely mind-boggled.
So we’ve got Gary Cordes:
1) Telling Marsh and GM that Boulder Springs Ranch was some kind of a larger-than-it-was “bomb-proof” safety zone.
2) Not giving that same “information” to Blue Ridge.
3) Co-masterminding (with Eric Marsh?) a Last Minute Hail Mary Plan (as the fire was reversing direction) to put in a Dozer Line off of the top of Glen Illah to the driveway of Boulder Springs Ranch (most likely).
4) Apparently, not saying a word to anybody, while the “rescue attempt” was being conceived, in the parking lot of the Ranch House Restaurant, of where he basically figured GM was.
5) Claiming that he rescued these two people when, according to one of them, it wasn’t him that did that, but another fire-fighter that turns out to be the fricken Air Support Group Supervisor Dan Sullivan.
6) Accepting a big-time award for “doing that” which he didn’t do, and Dan Sullivan hasn’t said a word about any of this.
I am completely mystified.
Namaste.
And, yes, this, as WTKTT wrote:
“If ( as we have just proved ) he was so ready and willing to LIE to Arizona State investigators about his actual involvement in ‘rescues’ that day…
…then what ELSE was he LYING about during that SAME interview?
And WHY?”
Completely agree. Dumbfounded.
(But, doncha know, we’re just a bunch of conspiracy theorists).
PS. Massive kudos to you, WTKTT, for thinking outside the box at the first on this, even though we had mostly NOTHING to go on regarding that truck, and leading us to Dan Sullivan.
Brilliant.
While I’m absolutely gobsmacked at this should it be true, and if true ….well to be honest I don’t know where it leads legally there in the US, but it defo’needs to be looked at; However – can we all just take a step back.
Are we 100% sure the Bryan Smith is remembering this crystal clear? For instance I have been in some tight situations with friends, where we have all remembered it differently, and those differences sometimes contradict each other.
I dunno – for instance, is it possible that Cordes and Sullivan had been part of the same rescue, just different links in the chain, So Cordes picked up the Bryan and Pearl and passed them onto Sullivan at some point?
Gary Cordes mis-remembers: Thinks he passed them onto an ambulance, which was maybe actually Sullivan?
Bryan Smith mis-remembers: Only remembers Sullivan well enough and confuses him with Cordes who originally picked him up?
Dan Sullivan: nothing……….. :s (and potentially missed out on an award)
I’m not making excuses, consider it more playing Devils advocate.
I think the accusation that the rescue of Bryan and Pearl by one person (Cordes) was a BIG FAT LIE – IS HUGE!!!!!
It would be good to be sure, 100%, without doubt., that there are no other (reasonable) reasons as to why the stories/vehicles/persons/beards etc don’t stack up.
…it sounds to me like you’re all close to 100% on this though.
You guys, as a team rock!
Otis- The account with Bryan is FIRM but Bryan/I are busy looking up the CURRENT contact information to thank Dan Sullivan for saving Bryan and Pearl’s life. We hope the man sends a note back or even visits Bryan to see IN PERSON him. The digging did not just stop there with just getting a FIRM account recollection. We are looking for Gary Cordes current contact information so Bryan can mail him too. No Otis, his memory is very FIRM on it. I hounded that topic and redundantly showed him stuff until it was exhausting because I wanted to make sure even though Bryan was FIRM before I wrote it on here. Also Otis, the stuff that happens in 2016 and I just hired a very expensive lawyer to handle some private points and see how to legally go—just remember the past few years how I gave the folks ample time to SPEAK UP…and when I do speak up it will be guided behind a lawyer this time not just popping my mouth off here. I gave the folks ample enough time (don’t you think) and even an extra year because I had that court order on a matter tied to a comment on this page and as well court order cored to the YHF aftermath so I am much more prepared this time around that what comes out of my mouth is only with the intent to reach clarity of all areas on the fire even who saved who and got awards for it. Had I never saw what I did as a teen I would of never even looked at that area but because I did I said NO STONE will go unturned. I will never do what I did and speak direct to a PUBLIC FIGURE on IM out of frustration because I saw bullying tone from YCSO to then next day get a call with apology from same person explaining the sensitivity of the matter so that is HOW that frustrated comment landed here in the first place—you have a high up YCSO folk talk in tone I saw that day; it would get you frustrated—I won’t write DIRECT on here because I saw up close the impartial ways of the system and I know Gary said once my order was up he had his own plans on topic but at this time I personally would rather not reflect to that spot and keep bringing up more clarity to that weekend and my court case to me only proved Willis is capable of hearsay on the stand to support another yet he can not vote in support of same person along with another person when it came down to a vote at a memorial meeting—where was his support to her then?
Now, what happened to me in court and the tying me to medium bullshit—whatever—anyone who knows me (my family and Sonny’s family and my pals KNOW I have prayed for each time to not happen) Like this week the person was due here but it was rescheduled so maybe just maybe the POWER of prayer is stronger than one might think—
I am not into that shit but I am tied to that area like it or not and here is a solid example. I shared something to a family member that happen to me after my father passed and it was a solid verified event that took place in 1965 before I was even born but it was something my father showed me after his passing that only him and this other person knew about and noone else could of known that so YES I do have something that happens to me when awake that is unexplainable to me and I was whoosh it away with prayer because other mediums say embrace the gift but I whoosh it away and I don’t want it. Another thing after my dad’s passing he guided me to people I never met to let them know he died—I was a toddler—and I have my mom on conference call listening in background as I dial this person I do not know but my mom wants to hear me speak to the man and she was like WHOAH…all those years passed and the person always loved my dad and he just vanished and I gave that man closure for he had been looking for him for forty years…so yes, like it or not I do have some odd thing I like to not admit happens in my life but it does and I am straight forward enough to share it here but THAT was a “focus” in my court case when it should of never been. That was terrible to make me out to something I do not even like to bring light to publicly but I am honest enough to share ME as life happens..I could write a book on those odd moments I refuse to engage in but never imagined it to be a part of a court proceeding about ME because that ain’t ME just an odd factor that is verified by others does happen to me. So Otis I AGREE with you—the FIRM confirmation is not enough and it is in the works to do more on topic—but my question is, where does one go direct link to read these ADOSH readings of Cordes now?
If you come to Yarnell and you meet volunteer AnnaMarie Lechner at the Senior Community Center- ask her what happen recently to her and if I knew something before she did and told her soon to look for something and she too can confirm I do not ENGAGE in what I see nor tell her details but if it will harm someone I will bring focus to them to be focused if I see something. I aint’ no medium person but yes something since my surgery that went wrong in 2006 changed to my life and I don’t like what happen but it is real…I don’t even like it being tied to me because in my life and history I was tied and platformed front and center in front of thousands as a Gospel singer and since a tot I have been tied to my journey to God so it’s a place I rebuke but it still is shown to my life—
Thanks Joy, I had no doubt you would have pursued it with Bryan for all your worth, I just didn’t want to see anyone else (including you) in as much unjustified trouble as you got into last year – I reckon they went after you because you are local, and with your knowledge and contacts, you must scare people that you will be instrumental in finding the TRUTH..
I also get that that serendipity happens to us all, and no one can explain why. I like to think that we get what we need, not what we want, just at the right time. Just like melons!
Without you Joy doing the ground work with Bryan…well how long would it have taken for the confirmation that there were a lot of LIES in those official reports? Thank you.
And be rest assured, next time I make it across the Atlantic, I’ll be looking to try meet up with as many of you as possible and buy you all beers or tipple (be it alcoholic or not) of your choice, just to add to the campfire feel!
my brother will peak here and text me it was before 2006 surgery because I told him he was going on a cruise and have nine months later a baby and he said he is crazy busy with work & not ready for kids and would never go on cruise but soon after I said it—months later he won a Disney cruise and yes nine months later he had his first born…so I do have tp be straight forward it was before the surgery but not so much—
Otis,
Thank you for this post. Thank you for NOT taking a ‘Trip to Abilene’ and just going along with the flow.
I am NOT convinced that Gary Cordes is a liar on the Yarnell rescues.
I think these old folks’ memories were most likely tainted from the extreme stress of the whole near-death YH Fire incident. Stress can and does adversely affect one’s memory.
Once again, I am NOT convinced.
How about these three recent examples of ‘false memories’ featuring Paul Ryan, Mitt Romney, and Hillary Clinton.
Regarding Paul Ryan, in a radio interview, he reported having done exceptionally well in a marathon which he claimed to have completed in just under three hours, however, a follow-investigation by Runner’s World showed that his actual performance was considerably longer.
A more significant memory lapse occurred with Mitt Romney when he described his strong childhood memory of the Golden Jubilee marking the 50th anniversary of the automobile industry despite the fact that it actually took place nine months before he was born!
And we must remember the Hillary Clinton ‘false memory.’ During the 2008 presidential campaign, she described a visit to Bosnia during the civil war when she faced enemy snipers. Based on the recollections of the others who went with her to Bosnia (including her daughter, Chelsea), none of her vivid recollections of ducking gunfire actually happened. Confronted with this evidence, Senator Clinton denied lying about the incident. “I made a mistake. I HAD A DIFFERENT MEMORY. …”
Dr. Elizabeth Loftus, from the University of CA, Irvine has concluded in describing her research, “we’ve done hundreds of experiments involving thousands of subjects showing that IT’S RELATIVELY EASY TO CHANGE PEOPLE’S MEMORY OF THE DETAILS OF AN EVENT THAT THEY’VE ACTUALLY EXPERIENCED.”
Dr. Loftus also stated ““If I’ve learned anything from 40 years of working on these issues, JUST BECAUSE A SUBJECT TELLS YOU THAT THEY HAVE A DETAILED MEMORY THAT’S VERY VIVID, THAT DOESN’T MEAN THAT IT’S TRUE.”
So then, it’s very possible that these alleged witnesses to their rescuer being Dan Sullivan or someone else, instead of Gary Cordes, had a ‘different memory’ of what actually occurred on June 30, 2013.
How about the alleged recall and memory of GMHS Brendon McDonough and all the people he has talked to and articles and such that he has read, and the countless interviews he’s been through? I wouldn’t believe a word he says when he claims it to be the truth.
Bryan is not old
first off Bryan Smith is not even a person investigating this fire nor even interested in it and I am sure the man knows his colors of vehicles he was saved in—
plus why would I care if he did or did not save the man—I just was asking every area and there is a few areas that NEED MORE FOCUSED ATTENTION to ask people who were there and that is Helm’s area/DeerTrack and Sesame/Manzinita and Shrine area since the firefighters are not talking I am going to the people…That is my focus this year not to make people feel a doubt on Cordes but to get the real information out from the people.
white from aquamarine are a big difference in color
Bryan for sure said the man had a beard-
Cordes does not
I have a woman I am about to see her photos who lived on Deer Track and maybe in them we will see a vehicle photo captured—or something else—
So SHELF THE NEW NEWS; okay but to doubt it— not able to do because this man is not old and is able to recall that day. He would not state Cordes did not save him— why would he state he didn’t unless he didn’t.
and he remembers that day TOO STRONGLY because the aftermath they lost Pearl Moore—
So shelf the news and it was never to create DOUBT but clarity- get more in person information public.
I am just unturning every stone. I laid low in 2015 but reason I had hired lawyer because this year I am going to be the JACK HAMMER and nail this out…
also this could all be solved by Gary Cordes accepting invite from Bryan Smith to meet the man in person who saved his life.
Reply to Joy A. Collura post
January 14, 2016 at 2:34 pm
>> Joy A. Collura said…
>>
>> also this could all be solved by
>> Gary Cordes accepting invite
>> from Bryan Smith to meet the
>> man in person who saved his life.
Ditto for Mr. Dan Sullivan.
If he really did rescue Bryan Smith… why would Dan Sullivan NOT want to meet with him and accept his thanks?
This is also a HUGE ‘gut-check’ moment for Arizona media in general, and AZCENTRAL in particular… since THEY are the ones who now appear to have printed that FALSE story in the first place.
We shall see what happens there.
Joy,
What a stellar idea, that this “could all be solved by Gary Cordes accepting invite from Bryan Smith to meet the man in person who saved his life.”
Grand idea. Cordes retired from Central Yavapai FD last year or even 2014 sometime.
Was Cordes the one, upon being told by (someone?) at the ranch house restaurant parking lot that GM deployed, who said something like, “bullshit, they had plenty of time to get there.”??
Can someone ‘clean up’ that part for me? Thanks,
Woodsman
Yes.
Reply to Woodsman post on
January 14, 2016 at 1:10 am
>> Woodsman said…
>>
>> Was Cordes the one, upon being told by (someone?)
>> at the ranch house restaurant parking lot that GM
>> deployed, who said something like, “bullshit, they
>> had plenty of time to get there.”??
>>
>> Can someone ‘clean up’ that part for me? Thanks,
>> On January 14, 2016 at 9:54 am, Marti replied…
>>
>> Yes.
From SPGS1 Gary Cordes’ one-and-only ADOSH interview on September 11, 2013…
Q1 = Barry Hicks, ADOSH investigator
A = Gary Cordes, SPGS1 in Yarnell on June 30, 2013
——————————————————-
Q1: Okay. Um, so uh, at, at some point um, air uh, during all of this, um, um, how did you uh, how did you hear of the uh, deployments?
A: That was back when I met with the group uh, before I went in to do the rescues, uh, when I met with Engine 59. It was Engine 59 that told me that they had transmitted over the radio, over air to ground that they had deployed and I, and I, it was Charlie Reyes whose the, whose the engine boss down there and I told him BS, that uh, they didn’t need to deploy ‘cause the safety’s, they were in their safety zone and it was bomb proof and he said no, they never got – made it there, they got cut off. And that’s when I knew obviously something bad had most likely occurred.
Q1: Okay. Um, so there was no, there was no question in your mind though that when, when Eric indicated he was going to the safety zone, he wasn’t talking about the black, he was talking about the, the Helm Ranch?
A: Yes
——————————————————-
At another point in the same interview with Cordes…
——————————————————-
Q1: Uh, he ( Eric Marsh ) tells air attack that he’s going to his designated, pre-designated safety zone…
A: Right.
Q1: …and he doesn’t say where that is, he just says, safety zone?
A: Right.
Q1: And so your assumption is…
A: He had plenty of time to get there and, and he was headed to the Boulder Springs Ranch.
——————————————————-
Gary Cordes was the ONLY person from the ‘fire command’ ranks at Yarnell who admitted ( in interviews ) that he never had any doubts at all that Granite Mountain was NOT ‘in the safe black’ anymore and that they were, in fact, heading towards the Boulder Springs Ranch.
The original SAIR report had this this to say about whether anyone really KNEW Granite Mountain had, indeed, ‘left the black’ and whether anyone really KNEW where they were going…
On PDF page 9 of the original SAIR document…
——————————————————–
Although much communication occurred among crews throughout the day, few people understood Granite Mountain’s intentions, movements, and location, once they left the black. The Team believes this is due to brief, informal, and vague radio transmissions and talkarounds that can occur during wildland fire communications. Based on radio conversations, Operations and other resources had concluded the Granite Mountain IHC was located in the black, near the ridge top where they had started that morning. This resulted in confusion about the crew’s actual location at the time of search and rescue.
——————————————————–
** Key phrase…
“few people understood Granite Mountain’s intentions, movements, and location, once they left the black.”
Keyword: FEW ( people ).
As in… SOME PEOPLE ( like Cordes ) DID KNOW their ‘intentions, movements and location… once they left the black”, and the SAIT KNEW that these SOME PEOPLE ( like Cordes ) KNEW it. They just didn’t want to talk about that because it didn’t fit their pre-determined narrative.
That piece of ‘SAIR speak’ is right up there with them also saying they had ALMOST no evidence of direct communications with Granite Mountain.
ALMOST? That still means they DID have evidence of ‘direct communications’ with Granite Mountain during their alleged ’30 minute blackout’… but they didn’t want to talk about that, either, for the same reasons. Evidence like that didn’t ‘fit’ their pre-determined narrative.
** Key phrase…
“Based on radio conversations, Operations and other resources had concluded the Granite Mountain IHC was located in the black, near the ridge top where they had started that morning.”
So even in the same paragraph… the SAIT decided to ignore their own statement that SOME PEOPLE KNEW exactly where GM was going, and they finish that same paragraph with a carte-blanche “Operations and other resources had concluded they were in the black, near the ridge top”.
That was NEVER where SPGS1 Gary Cordes thought they were, in the timeframe in question.
Gary Cordes met with OPS2 Paul Musser face-to-face there on the side of Highway 89 AFTER the radio communications that Cordes mentions above to ADOSH which convinced HIM that Granite was, in fact, “on their way to the Boulder Springs Ranch” in that timeframe.
We’re supposed to believe Cordes didn’t mention this to Musser, when the actual PURPOSE of their face-to-face on Highway 89 was to determine ‘who was where’ and what ‘resources’ could be brought to bear in Yarnell?
Yea, right.
Reply to Marti Reed post on
January 14, 2016 at 12:32 am
>> Marti said…
>>
>> I. Just. Can’t. Even. I mean really. WHY?????????
>>
>> I’m completely mind-boggled.
As I (reluctantly) mentioned down below… one of the ONLY reasons I can think of for Gary Cordes to be sitting there telling ADOSH he performed a rescue that he did NOT do… is because it was DECIDED sometime beforehand ( by some individuals? ) that he SHOULD do that.
In other words… someone decided it was better for Gary Cordes to just take credit for BOTH of those rescues ( whether he did one or both of them or not ) just so that ASGS Dan Sullivan wouldn’t show up ‘on the radar’ as another person that needed to be ‘interviewed’.
There is really no doubt that a certain effort was being made to HIDE the fact that ANY Prescott National Forest employees where ever THERE working in Yarnell that day. I’m talking about Jason Clawson, Aaron Hulburd and KC ‘Bucky’ Yowell as well.
There are times ( when reading the SAIT YIN notes ), with all the various mis-spellings of THEIR names in that document whenever they were mentioned… that that might have actually been done on purpose just to make it HARD to tell they were even THERE.
So the same might be true for this Dan Sullivan guy.
Someone decided, for some reason, it was best to try and HIDE that fact that any Prescott National Forest employees were ever even THERE in Yarnell… to prevent anyone ( as in, ADOSH ) from even trying to ‘interview’ them.
They succeeded.
NO ONE from the ‘Prescott National Forest’ who was there working in Yarnell the day of the tragedy was EVER interviewed ADOSH.
ADOSH didn’t know to REQUEST those interviews because the SAIT did a bang-up job of hiding the fact that they WERE there.
>> Marti also said…
>>
>> So we’ve got Gary Cordes:
>>
>> 1) Telling Marsh and GM that Boulder Springs Ranch was
>> some kind of a larger-than-it-was “bomb-proof” safety
>> zone.
Even almost 3 months AFTER the incident… Gary Cordes was still over-estimating the SIZE of the ‘safety zone’ ( in his ADOSH interview ) by more than EIGHT TO TEN TIMES.
It was only 3 to 3 and 1/2 acres, max… and Cordes was telling ADOSH it was upwards of 30 acres.
A = Gary Cordes, SPGS1 at the Yarnell Hill Fire…
—————————————————–
A: It’s a very large uh, 20 to 30 acre open site uh, that was real cleaned out and it was pretty – it was bomb proof.
—————————————————–
>> Marti also said…
>>
>> 2) Not giving that same “information” to Blue Ridge.
Correct. Brian Frisby and Trueheart Brown had NO IDEA where the Boulder Springs Ranch even was, or that it had been established as the ‘pre-determined safety zone’ that morning ( by Cordes ) for Granite Mountain and any other crew working the same area.
>> Marti also said…
>>
>> 3) Co-masterminding (with Eric Marsh?) a Last Minute
>> Hail Mary Plan (as the fire was reversing direction) to
>> put in a Dozer Line off of the top of Glen Illah to the
>> driveway of Boulder Springs Ranch (most likely).
From TFLDT(t) Tyson Esquibel’s Unit Log…
————————————————–
1445 ( 2:45 PM )
Met with Structure Group 2 ( Gary Cordes ). Plan to use TF2 ( Esquibel’s Task Force 2 ) resources to tie dozer line to rock outcrop on Mountain west of Shrine Road in Harper Canyon.
Blue Ridge IHC AND Granite Mountain IHC to improve dozer line.
1632 ( 4:32 PM )
St Group 1 ( Cordes ) request (1) engine to Boulder Spgs. ( and also says to make sure Granite Mountain gets out of there safely ).
————————————————–
From Cory Ball’s Unit Log…
——————————————————
1600
BRIHC one ( Brian Frisby ) informs Structure Group One ( Gary Cordes ) they are pushing engines everyone out of subdivision.
Structure group one ( Gary Cordes ) assigns me and one other to locate possibility of dozer line to southwest of Yarnell ( the Glen Ilah area ).
Acquire ATV ( lime-yellow ATV from Yarnell Fire Department ).
Travel into subdivision ( Glen Ilah ) back to Dozer line.
——————————————————
>> Marti also said…
>>
>> 4) Apparently, not saying a word to anybody,
>> while the “rescue attempt” was being conceived,
>> in the parking lot of the Ranch House Restaurant,
>> of where he basically figured GM was.
Nope. ‘Apparently’ not. Gary Cordes makes NO mention in his ADOSH interview of ever telling ANYONE who was trying to figure out where to start looking for Granite Mountain what he was so SURE of that he said “Bullshit” to Captain Reyes… in that same parking lot… just feet away from those same FFs trying to desperately figure out where to start looking for Granite Mountain.
At that moment… for all anyone knew… more than half those men COULD have been still more than half-alive… and there is no evidence Gary Cordes made any attempt to help anyone try to figure out where to start looking for them.
>> Marti also said…
>>
>> 5) Claiming that he rescued these two people when,
>> according to one of them, it wasn’t him that did that,
>> but another fire-fighter that turns out to be the
>> fricken Air Support Group Supervisor Dan Sullivan.
See above. The only thing that comes to mind ( to me ) at the moment is that he was TOLD to take credit for something he didn’t do just to try and hide that fact that Prescott National Forest employee Dan Sullivan was even THERE in Yarnell that day.
>> Marti also said…
>>
>> 6) Accepting a big-time award for “doing that” which
>> he didn’t do, and Dan Sullivan hasn’t said a word
>> about any of this.
>>
>> I am completely mystified.
The simple solution is for someone to INTERVIEW Dan Sullivan.
But actually… that might not be so simple.
At this point, it might be easier to get another interview with “El Chapo” that it would be for anyone to get Dan Sullivan to say a word about any of this.
I wonder if Sean Penn is free?
I hired a lawyer to discuss some areas-
I understand WWTKTT stance but I understand how a comment I made here ended up in court so I hired a top EXPENSIVE lawyer to go over some areas and my consult is soon- *I need to know legally what I can or cannot say—I am not ignoring you WWTKTT but avoiding a repeat in court—k
Reply to Joy A. Collura post on January 13, 2016 at 3:27 pm
>> Joy A. Collura said…
>>
>> I hired a lawyer to discuss some areas-
I think that’s a good idea, Joy, given what you’ve already had to go through.
If you had had one representing you back in January, 2015, I don’t think even that original ‘Injunction against Harassment’ would have stayed in place. It didn’t even meet Arizona’s own criteria for filing one in the first place, and Darrell Willis’ ( unrelated ) ‘hearsay’ evidence would have never been ‘admitted’ into the proceedings, etc., etc.
>> Joy A. Collura said…
>>
>> I understand WWTKTT stance
My only ‘stance’ was that after seeing this ‘new’ comment from you…
>> On January 12, 2016 at 7:26 pm, joy a collura said…
>>
>> I know more and saw footage and that in my humble opinion should be
>> spoken public first hand not by me.
…and just in the interest of ‘shaking some trees’ like what was happening before the holidays… I was just WONDERING if there was any way you could just DESCRIBE for the rest of us these things you say you ‘know’ and have ‘seen’ in even the most GENERIC of terms… WITHOUT getting anywhere near any ‘legal trouble’.
I was NEVER suggesting you get anywhere NEAR any ‘legal trouble’. No way.
You’ve had enough of that regarding this crazy incident already.
If there really is no way you can even just DESCRIBE these things you seem to ‘know’ and have ‘seen’ WITHOUT getting into ‘legal trouble’… then I totally understand.
But I still just thought it didn’t hurt to ask (again).
It remains very confusing for the rest of us here to even keep wondering WHAT these ‘things’ might be… and what they even *might* tell us about what really happened.
>> Joy A. Collura also said…
>>
>> I need to know legally what I can or cannot say.
Of course.
>> I am not ignoring you WWTKTT but avoiding a repeat in court
Again… I totally understand. I was just asking, since you reminded us ( again ) that there ARE these ‘things’ that you seem to ‘know’ and have ‘seen’.
Yes it was kangaroo court for sure and since Joy had no lawyer the judge did injustice and allowed the injunction. Pitiful at best and cronies at worst. At that time we could not afford an attorney–reason Joy did not win the case.
Sonny…. there should have never even BEEN an injunction issued OR a ‘hearing’.
The original complaint didn’t even meet the ‘minimum’ criteria established by Arizona Law for even ‘filing’ such a complaint in the first place… with regards to there having to be MULTIPLE ( serious ) incidents taking place prior to the filing.
Especially since the ‘defendant’ had already put herself ‘out there’ as a PUBLIC FIGURE serving on a PUBLIC Arizona Board and the only contact person listed for a PUBLIC Not-for profit organization.
The ‘trip-wire’ for ‘harassment’ complaints increases geometrically for any such PUBLIC FIGURE.
It’s one of the by-products of BECOMING a ‘PUBLIC FIGURE’.
You have to then realize that people ARE going to ( and have the RIGHT to ) ‘talk about you’.
Sorry… brain fart up above.
I meant to say ‘plaintiff’ where I said ‘defendant’.
Paragraph above SHOULD have read like this…
—————————————-
Especially since the PLAINTIFF had already put herself ‘out there’ as a PUBLIC FIGURE serving on a PUBLIC Arizona Board and the only contact person listed for a PUBLIC Not-for profit organization.
—————————————-
This whole situation called the Yarnell Hill Fire Incident has given plenty of brain farcs to individuals the world over. I am aghast at all the weaving of lies apparant with the Yarnell fire debacle that makes us either laugh or cry. Sometimes our minds do not know what reaction is appropriate and results in a farc. Even the best get that if you do WTKTT.
What are not brain farcs include the many Yarnell residents unhappy with how this fire was tackled or not tackled. I am certainly glad those fire gods were never in charge of my underground mining jobs. I”d likely be one of the 19 or 74 today directly or indirectly dead because of the fire or their attempts to put it out. When will they admit to their debacle and hand out fuck up awards instead of fireman of the year shit or how great thou art bull shit.
Come on people, where can you really brag on your saving lives or doing a good job when 19 +74 are dead due to your efforts.
WTK said
The fireline ‘blew through’ that retardant line ( like it wasn’t even there ) circa 3:41 PM, just about 1 minute before OPS2 Paul Musser would call DIVSA Marsh on the radio.
I have always wondered exactly how quickly the fire went through the line of retardant. Will you provide whatever evidence you have that the (dry?) retardant line was breached quickly, and had no slowing effect on the fire.
If the dry line of retardant did slow the progression of the fire, did that give the GMH the impression that a fresh line of retardant would have equal or greater effect on the fire?
WTK. Do you have any idea exactly how many aircraft or how many gallons of retardant were dropped on the YHF between the time we hear “Air support down there” and the time of deployment?
As we know, there was no retardant lines placed to protect Glen Isla or Yarnell in that timeframe
WTK said
OPS1 Todd Abel identified his OWN VOICE in that Robert Caldwell video… but then would have us believe he doesn’t even remember having that entire conversation with his DIVSA.
Thanks WTKTT
Yes the fire retardant ;had little effect on this fire. Consider that the winds were fierce at 45 mph evidenced by the trees whipping in videos. We had embers landing on us as we went down the Yarnell Hill on 89 some mile or more from the fire. The south end of Glen Isla was on fire with a mile or so of houses blocking the wind–just look at Bob Cramer’s house right against Hwy 89. That is the very estreme end of Glen Isla where houses were selectively chosen by embers. Now a narrow band of retardant had little effect on this type fire as far as Yarnell and Glen Isla were concerned. Pavement and defenseable space had more effect.
However we had hoped they could drop retardant on the men for the chance it might have saved them. With the wind laying down flames out to 100 ft. and more and the extreme temperatures with embers and smoke shooting out from the end of the flames one has to wonder if even retardant would have sufficed to save them.
More evidence of the flame laying down is seen in the old grader. It looked to Donut to be a clearing large enough for a good place to lay down his safety blanket. Yet the tires on both sides were burned off and the bottom plate that was old and rusty had turned blue from the flame. Those flames last some time from manzanita so you can read Morrison and Wooten, scientists who specialize in wild fire studies. These wild fires in manzanita such as we had give off the energy of a Heroshima type atomic bomb every 15 minutes. WTKTT is correct under the conditions we were witnessing. that day.
Too bad the fire gods did not have this type knowledge in considering the Yarnell Lightening Strike if indeed it were that. I have searched for that point and in any fire investigation I would have thought the first thing would be to locate the exact point of origin and take photos for proof. Any old cowboy can identify a lightening strike, but my efforts have been futile–and the co ordinates given for origin are way off at least 2 miles as far as I can determine. Now I am no sleuth but I certainly would have liked to have seen photos of the place of origin.
Lightening was striking that day, but there are photos of two quads in the area also. Another thing a smart arsonist might think a lightening storm could cover his tracks. Perhaps the investigators would consider all these things and why the point of origin would be thoroughly investigated as would any individuals in the area at the time of the fire. That is how they caught the arsonist fire man in California who had set so many fires. He had been in the area and had left a cigarette pack with matches rubber banded to the pack for a fire starter. So you see both details were covered there to catch him.
I believe Ted Putnam nails a forest ranger for arson in the Mann Gulch Fire that killed 13 wild land fire fighters, but then I have not read his investigative document or book yet, something I hope to get when he is finished.
Sonny—– Mann Gulch was definitely started by Lighting it was so remote on the Forest that they sent Smoke jumpers. I think there were severial other fires on that forest that were started by the same storm.
Tanker drops are ineffective in winds of 20 to 40 MPH the retardant is spread and the heat dissipates it. Putting a drop on the crew would have required less wind and Smoke even if they had the crews location. They just do not fly thru heavy smoke and are grounded in winds 20+.
Lightning fires in brush are very hard to pin point the Point of origin. Some times they hit Rocks and sparks fly in all directions.
Bob, we need to read Dr. Ted Putnam’s report on that before jumping to conclusions in either direction. I don’t know when he will get his report out and his report will likely be referring to a second fire started after the main fire.
Yes Sonny a Second fire was started by the Crew Foreman for a safe area
the crew did not listen and ran up hill being trapped and burned by the main fire and possibly the burn out that in turn save the Foreman and could have saved the rest if they had not panicked.
It was determined his fire was never a factor in the burn over but the main fire that overran the crew the burn out just became part of it.
This all lead to the training and carrying of extra Fusee’s for almost all the years after and became the Burning out of a safety zone working with the fire in the right types of fuel. to protect yourself.
His burn out was in grass and was about 1.5 Ac. before the main fire hit it
He laid down in the burn and survived. The rest of the crew could have done the same but panicked. None of them had ever seen that tactic before and did not know what he was trying to do.
It would be a hard sell to prove otherwise after almost 70 years. This was another main fire that ran up a mountain from below fast and considered a blow up. The crew was moving down to the fire from their jump area when the fire made its run.
Read John Maclean’s Mann Gulch which his Father studied and talked with the survivors and it got put into print.
It is a really factual book that covers the events. I believe a training movie was made as well. It was a training discussion for 20 or 30 years.
Yes Bob, I am glad you posted about that fire. It was the second fire as you say that trapped the men as I learned from Dr. Ted Putnam. Ted had made at least five trips to the area they died and has interviewed survivors and their relatives over a period of years. He has had his heart into discovering the truth on this one and knows all the intricate details probably better than anyone. I hope to be one of the first on his list to get his report or book on that particular fire.
Something about Ted I admire. He, like you, is not in an investigation for the dollar such as the book authors are. Nor does he have cronies to cow tow to. He marches to a different drum and looks only for the truth of a matter as the evidence shows–not sensationalism or questionable statements that bring in the audience and dollars. He has a true concern for the truth and how its proof of saving future firefighting lives.
With John McClean, Dr. Ted told imformed me that he had corrected John on certain statements McClean had made in his book, but those statements were never corrected or retracted. John had used second hand information to write those statements instead of going to the horses mouth. Now he is relying much on Holly Niel for information.
There is too much suspect information out there. Just like the article written up in a Phoenix news paper about Cordes saving Pearl and Bryon there. He never did according to Bryon but he even received awards of his touted wonderful efforts at the Yarnell Hill fire. All this shit would be laughable except 19 fire fighters are dead, and we see over 74 out of 645 population dead since the fire and millions in tax money squandered due to likely the worse fire fighting effort in American History.
It appears that the fire fighting people have gone overboard to make a debacle look like a shining example of great firefighting. Jesus drop me another bottle of Crown Royal out of the sky. The bullshit has gotten boot top high.
Sonny,
“The bullshit has gotten boot top high.”
You got that right. Some current and former wff’s don’t seem to like it that regular people have taken a peek (actually a real hard look) into our world. I think it has made some very uncomfortable. It’s the only explanation I can come up with to attribute some of the reactions here. Keep up the good work. It impresses me how well many non-wff’s are understanding ‘the business.’ Now of course, I will be accused of being a turn-coat by even suggesting some of you are doing great work (being a bonifide wff myself) – actually I’ve already been cleverly indirectly threatened and directly discredited. (to the magnitude that the best course of action was to delete a temporary email address so I didn’t have to read the bullshit.)
I’m an exception to the rule, a rouge. I can’t be intimidated by the fire gods or their minions. I once told a regional forester that the main problem with his region was lack of leadership…….I worked in his region at the time. That, in fact, DID NOT lead to a stellar evaluation that year! It was the truth as I saw it and improvement was more important to me than a promotion. That’s how I roll.
We are seeing some effects of the ‘thin green’ line.
Stay the course and continue to get better!
Everybody – stay the course! Why should it matter if there’s ‘nothing to the story’ to continue to strive for the whole story?
You’re a good old guy, Sonny.
Woodsman
“You have enemies? Good. That means you’ve stood up for something, sometime in your life.”
Winston Churchill
You don’t have enemies here Robert 2. Welcome to the advancement of fire fighting safety and helping the dumb citizen cowboy like “Sonny” Tex Gilligan understand the rudiments of firefighting and how 19 good young men could die and half a town burn and more citizens die because of that and retardant dumps and how tax payers don’t mind millions squandered in the mean time. I am writing like Joy now. She never slows up.
RTS,
I always liked that WC quote.
I may provoke you because I disagree with you. I may piss you off because I won’t back down. But, I’m exactly what you looked for back when you were filling your squad boss and crew boss positions.
Woodsman
Woodsman,
WTF over?
You do NOT provoke me and you do NOT piss me off, nor anything you post here.
I know that you are just the type of person I would hire as a supervisor.
NO worries. Chill out. We’re good.
Woodsman, do stay in there. By fortune and luck I have been able to rub shoulders with some of the finest men in the fire fighting profession. And by percentages likely 90% make the grade. Many of those are on this site and ranke high on any firefighting list and include people with decades of fire fighting experience. Like most, people like yourself, Bob Powers, Gary Olsen, Wayne Niel, Dr. Ted Putnam, do not even have to be acknowledged for their expertise and knowledge in how to fight a wild fire. They are not afraid to attend this site and certainly will correct me or anyone else when they believe their expressions are off base.
Best I can tell only the cowards refrain from this site. Perhaps they have fear of jobs, and no one want to jeopardize that. But the ninnys that took awards for a good job for the Yarnell fire are among that class as far as I am concerned. Let them come defend themselves.
If I had done the job I had seen here or even had to clean up what someone else that was left bad, I could never in good conscience take any type of award. But then take my opinions as only a humble citizen. I admire the man on the line and a number of the bosses-namely those I have seen writing here. They have the experience and know how to tell it like it is.
Sonny,
I’m not going anywhere unless I want to…..or I screw up and get myself ‘uninvited’ from IM by Mr. Dougherty.
Beware of ‘experts.’ Sometimes what you really need is an ‘un-expert.’
Woodsman
Reply to calvin post on January 13, 2016 at 3:49 am
>> calvin said…
>>
>> WTK said
>>
>> The fireline ‘blew through’ that retardant line ( like it wasn’t even there )
>> circa 3:41 PM, just about 1 minute before OPS2 Paul Musser would call
>> DIVSA Marsh on the radio.
>>
>> I have always wondered exactly how quickly the fire went through the line
>> of retardant. Will you provide whatever evidence you have that the (dry?)
>> retardant line was breached quickly, and had no slowing effect on the fire.
calvin… just letting you know I saw this ( and the other questions above ) and I’m not ignoring it. I’m working on a good response.
In the meantime… you might want to check out FBAN Byron Kimball’s ADOSH interview transcript.
Byron Kimball saw, with his own eyes and from a good ‘vantage point’…. what happened when the fireline reached that VLAT DC10 retardant line that was first laid in by Air Attack Rusty Warbis and Paul Lenmark when they first arrived over the fire ( right around NOON ).
The first VLAT drops that day were attempting to help Darrell Willis ‘save’ the Double Bar-A Ranch.
They put a pretty good line of retardant between it and the ( at that time ) still north-moving fireline.
It made no difference… given the fuel type and conditions… and Byron Kimball explains ( in his professional opinion ) why in his ADOSH interview.
He SAW the fireline march right over that retardant line with his own eyes.
maybe catch something in the stories or photos here:
http://www.yarnellhillrecoverygroup.org/our_stories.html
That’s the page where you can read Peeples Valley Firefighter Bob Brandon’s story, in his own words, with no ‘media person’ interpreting anything.
It’s also the place where Bob Brandon describes how he and the other Peeples Valley Firefighters were ‘interviewed’ within 48 hours of the incident by some mysterious ‘investigators’ ( the SAIT would not even be formed for another 48 hours )… and those ‘investigators’ not only took their full despositions but also copies of photos ( and videos? ) from all of their cameras and smartphones.
None of that ‘evidence’ has ever seen the light of day… even though several valid FOIA requests were made for (quote) “ALL material involved in the Yarnell Hill Investigation”.
WTKKT–Maybe I have missed much, but I am glad you attend to Donut. I see him as a farce to the fire fighting profession dwelling off the sadness of the loss of his fellows. I have the world’s smallest fiddle for him–my heart bleads for him and his sorrow. But in real life he has nothing to add to saving lives of any fireman, and his statements are to be taken with a grain of salt. He has withheld crucial information, knows less than I do about safety while I am a stupid citizen, and has consistently lied about what really happened. I have never bothered to even look at one of his videos and think he does well that anyone does.
You know Michael Collins maybe should be my hero in an Irish way since we are Dublinites. But Michael forgot Northern Ireland, his neighbor. He signed away Nothrern Ireland for the benefit of the south. King George, the Engish tyrant was elated since he had now turned North against south. Marti mentioned divide and conquer. The English tyrants (those in charge) are wise in their methods. But perhaps Michael got his just due-a bullet in the head. He thought that appeasing the bully would eventually gain independence was an error. It only diveded–yet has never conquered in the case of the Irish.
When you know the facts, then go with them without division. The liars will take their due, and the effort will save many. It is sad that we see what we see, but even if truth hurts, it in the final will difine us and there will be no reason for awards or accolades or recognitions. We are what truth defines.
what’s new on this?
http://apps.supremecourt.az.gov/aacc/appella/1CA%5CCV%5CCV150349.PDF
**
** TFLD(t) TYSON ESQUIBEL SAYS HE DROVE BOB AND RUTH HART UP TO
** THE ICP IN PEEPLES VALLEY AFTER THEY WERE ‘RESCUED’ IN GLEN ILAH.
Reply to joy a collura post on January 12, 2016 at 7:26 pm
>> joy a collura said…
>>
>> I know more and saw footage and that in my humble opinion should be
>> spoken public first hand not by me.
Totally understand, Joy… but in the spirit of ‘shaking trees’ once more… is there ANYTHING you CAN tell us about what seems to be this ‘terrible secret’ that you keep ‘mentioning’ and that you seem to already know?
Can you at least give us a GENERAL IDEA what this ‘terrible secret’ seems to be?
>> joy a collura also said…
>>
>> I will go to Hart family next and see if Gary Cordes saved them.
There is now ‘more’ to that ‘Bob and Ruth Hart’ rescue story you might want to try and verify with them.
Let me explain…
Once again… from Gary Cordes’ handwritten Unit Log…
—————————————————————————-
1620 – Entered subdivision of Glen Ilah removing 4 stranded
elderly on several trips in and out. Turned over to ambulance for TX.
—————————————————————————-
NOTICE that Gary Cordes seems to be implying that he turned BOTH of the 2 elderly couples over to ‘ambulance for TX’. That becomes important in a moment because, even if he actually did have anything to do with either of the TWO rescues, the ‘turned over to ambulance’ part does NOT appear to be what happened in the case of ‘Bob and Ruth Hart’.
And, once again, here is the way Gary Cordes told BOTH of the ‘rescue stories’ that he was taking credit for ( and would be given the Arizona Wildfire Academy “Firefighter of the Year for 2013” award for ) during his one-and-only ADOSH interview on September 11, 2013.
I’m going to FIRST print his recounting of the SECOND rescue ( supposedly Bryan Smith and his cousin Pearl Moore )… and then print his recounting of his FIRST rescue ( supposedly Bob and Ruth Hart ) after that one…
————————————————————————————————–
** RESCUE 2 ( OF 2 ) – ( Supposedly Byran Smith and Pearl Moore )…
Went back to north and decided to make one more run into the Manzanita area up in there. Came across a gentleman waving me down in the smoke, uh, told him to get into the vehicle… He informed me he had a, he had a uh, handicapped uh, disable neighbor, elderly woman who was – he was trying to carry her out and he couldn’t, uh, he was unable to carry her any farther. I asked him where she was, he pointed uh, on a road that was fairly unattainable, all of the structures on the north side were on fire. So I made an attempt to go down that road and uh, he advised me to be careful so I wouldn’t run her over. She was in the road, and she was. I picked her up, got her into the vehicle… got her over, put her in an ambulance at the uh, back at the Ranch Restaurant.
————————————————————————————————–
Thanks to you and Mr. Bryan Smith… we can now say for sure that Gary Cordes is LYING to ADOSH here… and he did NOT actually perform this particular rescue at all.
It was someone ELSE ( not yet identified ) who was driving an all-aquamarine forestry greenish/bluish 4-door SUV/Suburban style vehicle… the same color used for vehicles from the Prescott National Forest ( or any US National Forest ).
That being said… notice in even Cordes’ own account that he SAYS he ‘put her in an ambulance’.
That becomes important in a moment.
————————————————————————————————–
** RESCUE 1 ( OF 2 ) – ( Supposedly Bob and Ruth Hart )…
At one point I drove up Manzanita Trail uh, structures on both sides of the road were on fire and I saw an elderly couple walking down the road and there was almost zero visibility in there and, and uh, with the smoke laying in there 40 plus mile an hour winds and two elderly people holding hands walking out in their pajamas, and um, so I pulled up, they asked me to uh, if they could please get a ride and I told them to get in the vehicle very abruptly and uh, assisted the elderly woman into the vehicle and the elderly gentleman got in and, and I took them back out to the Ranch Restaurant um, dropped them off with the crews and I re-entered the subdivision.
————————————————————————————————–
Notice NOW that Gary Cordes does NOT say ( for this first of the two rescues ) that he put the two people ( presumably Bob and Ruth Hart ) in an AMBULANCE at all.
For this FIRST rescue… Cordes only says he “dropped them off with the crews”.
That actually MATCHES one of TFLD(t) Tyson Esquibel’s Unit Log entries… and Tyson Esquibel CONFIRMS ( via both first names AND their address ) that these 2 people were Bob and Ruth Hart.
Esquibel says that ‘Bob and Ruth Hart’ were given to HIM… and that HE is the one who then DROVE THEM TO THE ICP ( and did NOT put them in an ambulance at all )…
From TFLD(t) Tyson Esquibel’s Unit Log…
————————————————————————-
1840 ( 6:40 PM )
leave safety zone, resources to save structures on Hwy 89 from cafe to N of downtown.
(2) evacuees transported to ICP by myself. Bob + Ruth ( Hodge ), 22680 W. Manzinita.
————————————————————————-
So Tyson Esquibel might have gotten Bob and Ruth Hart’s LAST NAME wrong in his Unit Log ( he wrote ‘Hodge’ instead of ‘Hart’ )… but he copied down the address that Bob and Ruth Hart seemed to have given him exactly correct.
22680 W. Manzanita was, in fact, Bob and Ruth Hart’s address in Glen Ilah on june 30, 2013.
The center of the HOUSE at 22680 W. Manzanita, Glen Ilah, Arizona is exactly here…
Decimal Latitude, Longitude: 34.220777, -112.761000
Bob and Ruth Hart sold that house in 2014 to ‘Joel Simmons and June Carol’, but on June 30, 2013 that is where they were living.
From the Yavapa County Tax Assessor’s online PUBLIC database at…
http://gis.yavapai.us/v4/
—————————————————————————-
Yavapai County Parcel Number: 203-03-010
Street Address: 22680 W. Manzanita, Glen Ilah, AZ
Owner(s) as of 01/06/2014: Simmons Joel Lane & June Carol RS
Owner(s) as of 05/29/1998: Hart Robert L, Hart Ruth M, Hart Family Trust
—————————————————————————-
So if you talk to the ‘Hart’ family… see if they can CONFIRM this part of both Gary Cordes’ story and Tyson Esquibel’s Unit Log.
Whether or not it was Gary Cordes in his red-and-white Central Yavapai command vehicle ( with camper top and flat light bar on top ) rescuing Bob and Ruth Hart… according to Tyson Esquibel… they were NOT put in an ambulance.
According to Tyson Esquibel… Bob and Ruth Hart rode up to Peeples Valley in HIS large yellow and-white vehicle with camper-top that said GLENDALE FIRE on the side of it ( which is seen there in the RHR parking lot in many of Tom Story’s photos ).
And what happened after THAT… we still don’t know.
YOU SAID:
Totally understand, Joy… but in the spirit of ‘shaking trees’ once more… is there ANYTHING you CAN tell us about what seems to be this ‘terrible secret’ that you keep ‘mentioning’ and that you seem to already know?
MY REPLY:
I have mentioned it WWTKTT—if people go back from the start and really read my comments from day one—I have dropped seeds but I won’t be direct because it is not my position not with people out there who have know problem dropping my ass in court over comments here—come in person and sit down with me but hell no—-ain’t setting myself for court part two—when I do not have the documents to prove it—but I do know there is missing elements and I will stand by that like RTS and Bob stand by their views-
know problem…NO problem I meant
THIS IS A WRITTEN TRUE ACCOUNT OF THE RESCUE BUT WHO RESCUED THEM? CAN CORDES COME MEET BRYAN SMITH AND CONFIRM THAT?
ACCOUNT STATED:
Went back to north and decided to make one more run into the Manzanita area up in there. Came across a gentleman waving me down in the smoke, uh, told him to get into the vehicle… He informed me he had a, he had a uh, handicapped uh, disable neighbor, elderly woman who was – he was trying to carry her out and he couldn’t, uh, he was unable to carry her any farther. I asked him where she was, he pointed uh, on a road that was fairly unattainable, all of the structures on the north side were on fire. So I made an attempt to go down that road and uh, he advised me to be careful so I wouldn’t run her over. She was in the road, and she was. I picked her up, got her into the vehicle… got her over, put her in an ambulance at the uh, back at the Ranch Restaurant.
WWTKTT- I am going to Jim’s tomorrow and I will see if they are around—ok.
Than I will confirm that rescue account word by word-
and ** RESCUE 1 ( OF 2 ) – ( Supposedly Bob and Ruth Hart )…
At one point I drove up Manzanita Trail uh, structures on both sides of the road were on fire and I saw an elderly couple walking down the road and there was almost zero visibility in there and, and uh, with the smoke laying in there 40 plus mile an hour winds and two elderly people holding hands walking out in their pajamas, and um, so I pulled up, they asked me to uh, if they could please get a ride and I told them to get in the vehicle very abruptly and uh, assisted the elderly woman into the vehicle and the elderly gentleman got in and, and I took them back out to the Ranch Restaurant um, dropped them off with the crews and I re-entered the subdivision.
That actually MATCHES one of TFLD(t) Tyson Esquibel’s Unit Log entries… and Tyson Esquibel CONFIRMS ( via both first names AND their address ) that these 2 people were Bob and Ruth Hart.
so maybe we should ask Tyson WHO gave the couple to him?
Reply to Joy A. Collura post on January 12, 2016 at 9:52 pm
>> Joy A. Collura said…
>>
>> That actually MATCHES one of TFLD(t) Tyson Esquibel’s Unit Log
>> entries… and Tyson Esquibel CONFIRMS ( via both first names
>> AND their address ) that these 2 people were Bob and Ruth Hart.
>>
>> so maybe we should ask Tyson WHO gave the couple to him?
Certainly stands to reason that HE would KNOW… doesn’t it?
It’s a mystery why he also didn’t name that person in his Unit Log entry.
you got mail.
Joel Simmons and June Carol’, but on June 30, 2013 that is where they were living.—
they did that because Joel and June lost their home in the fire-
You would think Matthew would mention the save in his article when he interviewed them—
http://graphics.latimes.com/yarnell/
By MATTHEW TEAGUE
JUNE 22, 2014 | YARNELL, ARIZ.
Ruth Hart noticed it seemed awfully dark outside.
In her slippers, she stepped into the living room and saw a single orange light, like the tip of a lit cigarette, dance past the window. Strange.
ADVERTISEMENT
She stepped outside, in her nightgown, and saw another one. An ember. “Something has caught fire,” she thought.
Inside, Bob was thirsty. The air in Yarnell was so dry this time of year, and he liked to drink a glass of water before bed. In his pajamas, he moved haltingly toward the kitchen until he reached the threshold. There he saw it: a glow outside the window. Something was burning in the garden.
They met each other inside.
Ruth grabbed a bit of money, in case they needed to stay somewhere for the night. They shuffled into the garage, where Bob helped her into his Honda Ridgeline truck.
He slid behind the steering wheel, and when they pulled into the open air, the smoke was so thick, it seemed as though someone had dripped tar onto his windshield.
He knew a ditch lay to the right of their driveway, so he edged to the left, and drove though a grove of manzanita burning in their yard. Their white metal fence drooped, melting in the heat.
By the time they reached the end of the driveway Bob was completely disoriented. He drifted too far to the left and wound up across the street on a neighbor’s property. A steel pipe there, sticking up from the ground, got jammed into the guts of the truck, and the vehicle came to a halt.
Bob tried to open his door and met an inferno. The heat was like a physical blow that knocked him back into the truck. He closed the door, and they sat for a while. The truck’s air conditioner felt so cool on their faces.
I just emailed the journalist questions if he interviewed the Harts or a firefighter? etc…
let you know if I get reply.
Thanky you… Joy… and YES… I have seen that article and the fact that he then NEVER mentions the END of that ‘story’ ( and how Bob and Ruth Hart actually got OUT of that predicament they were in ) has always seemed very, very odd.
It’s almost as if he DID ‘write the end’ of that story…. but some editor came along and told him to ‘take that part out’.
It’s just bizarre that he would go into such detail and then never bother to FINISH the story and report how they actually got OUT of there.
http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2014/11/09/21-videos-show-chaos-surrounding-yarnell-hill-fire-deaths/18763511/
has aquamarine vehicles in this link
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v6XlX1IISTg
3:42 and 3:51 of 5:12 was all I saw in that procession link but not it. keep looking
I will show this video to Bryan—
I think I found it.
5:37 out 7:52
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XCfqkN3r3T4
license plate appears to say A 338729
side note. family of mine recently reading here and hearing me share about our family on here…it is hard to see some family more focused to not even saying sorry for your loss but are wondering about other areas and as you read on IM I got one inquisitive red flagged type thinking—my dad was simple. He helped engineered the NY twin towers back in the 60s and he loved his beer and he drank on the job with alot of other men— it was how the times were–The Chase Tower (formerly known as Valley Center and Bank One Center) in Phoenix, Arizona, is the tallest building in the state of Arizona. My dad also was part of the engineering of that too in the early 70’s- He was an officer of Joe Arpaio’s setup— and where I learned how different the world is— and how people FALSELY accept awards and accolades and show the media falsehoods because the very man over at the hotel on Van Buren who took an award for saving a life almost took mine one year in the most vile violent way with others so I know and have a different hawk eye view—yet the monster sat on stage with my father as my father got an award too. It’s a bullshit world—I should be in charge of WHO gets awards—not just bs to get vacations, better position within the company and whole bunch of bs—so maybe WWTKTT we are awaiting these others to SPEAK UP but maybe just maybe I will have my breaking point and start naming off and shake that “cheese and cracker” tree—sorry but it angers me to see those procession videos and the men are not here to tell RTS or Bob or others their side of things…ok so back to my pops—after my mother left him to head back East with the kids it ruined my dad and never recovered and when the 911 happened and the towers crumbled and people we knew were no longer—that was hard—We all cannot GO FORWARD when a trauma or tragedy happens —we can put one foot in the front of the other but you ever see the walking dead show—I seen zombies on there with one foot in front of the other so some of us may look like we went FORWARD with one foot in front of the other but until the day people start sharing more many of us cannot…
should of never happened.
Joy:
SHOW THIS VIDEO (from 2014) TO BRYAN.
It has the DAN SULLIVAN we are talking about in it. I have set it to start at the point (6:29) where Dan starts speaking.
Day 7 – Assayii Lake Fire “largest” fire on Navajo Reservation
https://youtu.be/0dKzc3c7L0I?t=6m29s
“”The winds finally started breaking yesterday, and we were just about able to get all our aircraft in the air,” SWIMT 3 Air Operations Branch Director Dan Sullivan said,”
Great find, Marti.
Yes… that’s a CLEAR picture of the same ‘Dan Sullivan’ who must have been hired as ASGS for Yarnell on June 30, 2013.
It also shows clearly that it seemed to be his ‘habit’ to be wearing a ‘ball cap’ ( as Bryan Smith also described ) when he was out on fire assignments.
As for the additional detail that Bryan Smith provided about the guy having to clear all kinds of ‘maps’ off the front seat of that 4-door all-aquamarine SUV/Suburban-style vehicle… I believe that actually supports the theory that it was ASGS Dan Sullivan back there in Glen Ilah at that time.
It sounds like what I would expect of someone hired as an ASGS. He WOULD tend to have maps ‘spread out’ for reference next to him in his own vehicle.
As for the beard… these images of Dan Sullivan show him beardless but they also show he had kind of a ‘pointy chin’. When a person like that DOES decide to grow a beard… it very often DOES come out looking sort of ‘triangular’, as Bryan Smith also described.
Followup…
If it does actually turn out to be ‘Dan Sullivan’ back there rescuing Bryan Smith and his cousin Pearl Moore ( and NOT Gary Cordes )… what will boggle the mind is how it was that Gary Cordes seemed to know ALL of the DETAILS, to the point where he could have been ‘telling the story’ the way he did to ADOSH.
We tend to forget, when looking at transcripts, that they are NOT ‘Unit Logs’ where someone had time to prepare all that text.
Gary Cordes was SPEAKING that STORY to ADOSH, in real time.
So ALL of those details ( which match exactly the way Bryan Smith himself recalls the whole rescue taking place ) were fully available to Cordes enought for him to ‘tell the story’ like he was ACTUALLY there, doing it.
Very strange.
Joy verified with Bryon that Sullivan was the man that did the heroic deed of taking a few minutes off his regular duty to get Pearl to an ambulance. This Joy is amazing at needling out the truth of a matter. She reminds me of my Dad who had only a fourth grade education, yet read and understood Dana’s System of minerology better than I do with a college bat hide.
what? Actually is age seven fourth grade—
you were close—I have a second grade education 🙂
smiles.
Then you are likely smarter than my Dad. Well you are in certain areas–except going into mine drifts and escaping fires. You rank among the 19 on that. But be it as it may. we are the best old married couple around. She’s married, I’m old.
Joy A. Collura says
January 13, 2016 at 10:16 pm
Then you are likely smarter than my Dad. Well you are in certain areas–except going into mine drifts and escaping fires. You rank among the 19 on that. But be it as it may. we are the best old married couple around. She’s married, I’m old.
Reply to Sonny post on
January 13, 2016 at 8:41 pm
>> Sonny said…
>>
>> Joy verified with Bryon that Sullivan was
>> the man that did the heroic deed of taking
>> a few minutes off his regular duty to get
>> Pearl to an ambulance.
And Dan Sullivan honestly deserves the CREDIT for that ( and not Gary Cordes ).
This is also a reminder of what we have been saying ( and doing ) here all along.
EVERY piece of EVIDENCE is IMPORTANT.
EVERY photograph *might* become important, at some point.
It was ALSO Joy who provided the Anna Marie Lechner photo that was the final verification that Gary Cordes WAS driving that red-and-white Central Yavapai command vehicle with the camper top and the flat light bar on top.
With that knowledge… and now Joy + Bryan Smith’s willingness to see this through… we have been able to also CONFIRM that it was NOT Gary Cordes who did this particular ‘rescue’… as he was claiming he did in his ADOSH interview.
This is now a real ‘gut check’ moment for the Arizona media in general… and AZCENTRAL in particular.
Are they now willing to ADMIT that the Arizona Wildlfire Academy’s “Firefighter of the year for 2013”, Gary Cordes, was outright LYING to Arizona State ADOSH investigators… and they have printed a FALSE STORY?
Will they print a RETRACTION?
Will they take it one step farther and try to find out WHY the “Arizona Firefighter of he Year” was LYING to investigators?
We shall see.
Glad you were able to catch this, Joy and WTKTT.
This truly is mind-boggling.
Reply to Joy A. Collura post on
January 12, 2016 at 11:06 pm
>> Joy A. Collura said…
>>
>> I will show this video to Bryan—
>> I think I found it.
>> 5:37 out 7:52
>>
>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XCfqkN3r3T4
I agree. That could be it… but that one is odd in that it is NOT following some of the standard USFS Equipment Identifier regulations and it doesn’t even have the standard ‘white stripe’ down the side. All it has is the US Forestry logo on the side doors.
But it IS a 4-door all-aquamarine SUV/Suburban-style vehicle that most probably belongs to the Prescott National Forest ( and, perhaps, being driven by Dan Sullivan? ).
There are at least THREE other videos of this same procession taken at that same time at that same location in Prescott. Slightly different angles.
There are actually FOUR vehicles in this video that
could match the description being given by Bryan Smith.
+ 3:30
At +3:30 in that video we see the following vehicle…
All-aquamarine 4-door SUV/Suburban-style truck with US Forestry Shield-logo on the passenger door. NO light-bar on the top. No ‘deer chucker’ installed over front grill.
The ‘Unit Designator’ inside the standard US Forestry ‘white stripe’ running down the side of the vehicle, and over the front passenger-side wheel is ‘CH-9’.
** +4:57
At +4:57, there is this vehicle…
All-aquamarine 4-door Ford pickup truck with an enclosed camper top back US Forestry Shield-logo on the passenger door. Flat light-bar on the top. This one DOES have a ‘deer chucker’ installed over the front grill.
The ‘Unit Designator’ inside the standard US Forestry ‘white stripe’ running down the side of the vehicle, and over the front passenger-side wheel is ‘AZ-PNF’ ( Arizona – Prescott National Forest ).
On the side of the enclosed, windowless camper top is another ‘Unit Designator’ in white letters which says “UTL 930”.
** +5:37
At +5:37 is yet ANOTHER vehicle that could be the one…
All-aquamarine 4-door SUV/Suburban-style truck with US Forestry Shield-logo on the passenger door. There is NO light-bar on the top and this time, there is also NO standard USFS ‘white stripe’ down the vehicles side(s) and also NO standard ‘Unit Designators’ of any kind. Also no ‘deer chucker’ installed over front grill.
** +6:22
And again, at +6:22, there is this vehicle, almost identical to the one that passed by at +4:57…
All-aquamarine 4-door Ford pickup truck with an enclosed camper top back US Forestry Shield-logo on the passenger door. Flat light-bar on the top. This one DOES have a ‘deer chucker’ installed over the front grill.
The ‘Unit Designator’ inside the standard US Forestry ‘white stripe’ running down the side of the vehicle, and over the front passenger-side wheel is ‘AZ-PNF’ ( Arizona – Prescott National Forest ).
But unlike the similar one at +4:57, this one has no additional ‘Unit Designator’ on the side of the enclosed, windowless camper top.
** +6:59
At +6:59 is yet another 4-door all-aquamarine truck… but this one has a Unit Designator of AZ-COF ( Arizona – Coconino National Forest ) and the BACK of it is much larger than the others and getting more into the ‘large squareback utility truck’ style. Definitely NO in the SUV/Suburban-style category.
Bob said
We also have a couple of things from the Radio statements.
GM is committed to the Black. This came from a direct statement to OPS about moving to Yarnell.
The fire has crossed the Retardant Line This came fro a direct statement to Marsh from Steed
Bob. Where are you getting the RADIO statement “GM is committed to the black”? And Steed actually reported that the fire had crossed the road not the retardant line
I
The statement ( they’re or we’re ) committed to the Black came from the request on there availability form I believe one of the Ops. or the IC We discussed that a lot. That was on the main fire Freq. and in the interview notes. Part of the Hunker and be safe discussion.
The statement over the Radio to Marsh during the two nine second Videos by Steed informing Marsh of the Fire advance as if Marsh may not have known. Or could not see the Fire. After the fire had pushed McDonough off his look out spot and Frisby had moved him to the Trucks.
The Road? or the Tractor Push? I misspoke on the Retardant line. the Retardant line was to the south of the Tractor push and the fire was moving towards it thanks for the correction.
At that point the fire had nothing to stop its movement to the south. which I believe Steed was concerned about. That’s why they had moved into the Black.
I like you have never kept the notes that WTKTT has and can refer to. So the exact names escape me at times.
Reply to Bob Powers post on January 12, 2016 at 4:24 pm
>> Bob Powers said…
>>
>> The statement ( they’re or we’re ) committed to the Black came
>> from the request on there availability form I believe one of the
>> Ops. or the IC We discussed that a lot.
Yes. We did… ad infinitum… and you are still not remembering things correctly.
At 3:42 PM, OPS2 Paul Musser called out to DIVSA Marsh on a TAC channel.
We HEAR him beginning that one-and-only radio call he says he ever made to Marsh in one of the Panebaker Air-Study videos.
In OPS2 Paul Musser’s part of his SAIT interview notes… there is NO MENTION of him ever making this radio call to DIVSA Eric Marsh.
It only ‘came out’ that he actually did this during his ADOSH interview.
But even then… in OPS2 Paul Musser’s ADOSH testimony… Musser was VERY adamant that he NEVER asked Marsh if he was “Committed to the BLACK”.
OPS2 Paul Musser was adamant that they only thing he asked Marsh is if he ( and his resources ) were still “Committed to the RIDGE”.
In other words… whether they were still committed to their ASSIGNMENT, and NOT whether they were actually already ‘hunkering down’ and/or ‘committed to the BLACK’, or something.
As we have discussed over and over… it’s a subtle ( but important ) distinction to remember and even Paul Musser was ‘making the distinction’ between the two things DURING his ADOSH interview.
Once again… there is no need to take my word for this.
Here is OPS2 Paul Musser, in his OWN WORDS… talking to ADOSH…
Q2 = Barry Hicks, ADOSH investigator
A = Paul Musser, OPS2 in Yarnell on June 30, 2013
—————————————————————————
1412 A: Got on the 89 to a vantage point and met with Gary Cordes. Face to face
1413 with Gary. As far as – oh at that point, I’d also called Granite on their radio.
1414 Because Todd was still tied up with Model Creek. I called Granite on the
1415 radio and asked if them and Blue Ridge were still committed on the ridge?
1416 They said that they were committed on the ridge. But Blue Ridge was on the
1417 bottom and may, may be available. I talked with Gary, he said no their
1418 committed to, uh, hold – to prepping and hold the dozer line.
1474 Q2: Okay. When you, uh – let me back up to when you made contact with Granite
1475 Mountain, who – who did you talk to – Eric?
1476
1477 A: I think so.
1478
1479 Q2: But you can’t remember for sure if that was Eric or…
1480
1481 A: I – I – ‘cause I – I think I called division Alpha, not Granite, no.
1482
1483 Q2: Oh, okay.
1484
1485 A: That’s who I would have called.
1486
1487 Q2: Uh, so it would have…
1488
1489 A: Yeah, I wouldn’t have called Granite direct.
1490
1491 Q2: Okay.
1492
1493 A: I would have called – gone through their supervisor.
1494
1495 Q2: Okay.
1496
1497 A: Which at that point was division Alpha.
1498
1499 Q2: Okay. And, uh, so, uh, that conversation was you’re in the black and you need
1500 to stay in the black?
1501
1502 A: No, no that conversation was are you still committed on top of the ridge. And
1503 they said yes we are committed on top of the ridge.
1504
1505 Q2: Okay. And so you’re assumption was they were in the black?
1506
1507 A: If – if they were committed on top of the ridge, they would have one foot in
1508 the black.
1509
1510 Q2: Okay.
1511
1512 A: Because that was their assignment, yes.
—————————————————————
So OPS2 Paul Musser himself ‘corrected’ ADOSH investigator Barry Hicks and made SURE he understood that the QUESTION Musser asked Marsh was about ‘the ridge’ and not ‘the black’.
Musser was ‘assuming’ there WAS ‘black’ up there ( somewhere near where they were working ), but that’s still NOT what he says he ASKED Marsh about when he called him at 3:42 PM.
>> Bob Powers also said…
>>
>> That was on the main fire Freq.
Yes. That part is correct. We HEAR Musser beginning this radio call to Marsh at 3:42 on one of the TAC channels that was being captured by the Panebaker video team.
>> Bob Powers also said…
>>
>> and in the interview notes.
ONLY in Musser’s ADOSH testimony. The SAIT never mentions this important radio call between OPS2 Paul Musser and DIVSA Eric Marsh.
>> Bob Powers also said…
>>
>> Part of the Hunker and be safe discussion.
No.
Even according to OPS2 Paul Musser… there was no ‘hunker and be safe’ component in the conversation between OPS2 Paul Musser and DIVSA Eric Marsh at 3:42 PM.
What you are referring to as the “Hunker and be safe discussion” only happened EIGHT minutes later… circa 3:50 PM… when OPS1 Todd Abel is captured in Robert Caldwell’s video speaking to Marsh on a TAC channel.
That’s the conversation where we hear Abel tell Marsh to “Hunker and be safe”… and we also hear Eric Marsh tell OPS1 Abel he was ( at that moment ) “Working his way off the top”.
We know now that this “Working my way off the top” statement from Marsh meant that he was, in fact, ALREADY ‘scouting ahead’ to the Boulder Springs Ranch and was coming ALL the way ‘off the top’ of the Weaver mountains and down towards the Ranch… but he (apparently) did NOT make that clear to OPS1 Todd Abel.
OPS1 Todd Abel testified that he thought they were ‘staying put’ up there, at that point, and that’s when he said “You guys hunker and be safe”.
We still don’t know how that 3:50 PM conversation ended… and what Marsh’s response was to Abel’s “Hunker and be safe” directive.
OPS1 Todd Abel identified his OWN VOICE in that Robert Caldwell video… but then would have us believe he doesn’t even remember having that entire conversation with his DIVSA.
>> Bob Powers also said…
>>
>> The statement over the Radio to Marsh during the two nine second
>> Videos by Steed informing Marsh of the Fire advance as if Marsh
>> may not have known. Or could not see the Fire. After the fire had
>> pushed McDonough off his look out spot and Frisby
>> had moved him to the Trucks.
>>
>> The Road? or the Tractor Push? I misspoke on the Retardant line.
>> the Retardant line was to the south of the Tractor push
No, it was not.
The heavy retardant line that was laid down by Air Attack ( Rusty Warbis and Paul Lenmark ) all the way from the Weaver Mountains, near the Helispot location, and EAST, across that ‘middle bowl’… was NORTH of the ‘Tractor push’ and the old-grader location.
The fireline ‘blew through’ that retardant line ( like it wasn’t even there ) circa 3:41 PM, just about 1 minute before OPS2 Paul Musser would call DIVSA Marsh on the radio.
In another one of the Panebaker videos… we actually HEAR DIVSA Marsh reporting this event at 3:41 over the radio ( presumably to OPS1 Todd Abel )… and even Marsh is now reporting that the fire is “Headed for town”.
>> Bob Powers also said…
>>
>> At that point the fire had nothing to stop its movement to the south.
>> which I believe Steed was concerned about. That’s why they had
>> moved into the Black.
All of the following things happened at roughly the same time, within just a 3 or 4 minute ‘window’ starting at 4:39 PM to about 4:43 PM…
01. Frisby accidentally stumbles across Brendan coming off his lookout mound.
02. Frisby sees the fire heading SOUTH, right at them, with 50 foot flame lengths.
03. Frisby realizes it’s time for him and Brendan to just get the fuck OUT of there.
04. Frisby calls Marsh/Steed, cancels the second face-to-face.
05. Frisby says he has Brendan and will be evacuating him back EAST.
06 Frisby asks Marsh/Steed if they want their vehicles moved.
07. Marsh/Steed say yes… and the GM drivers pipe up on the radio telling Frisby where all the keys are.
08 Frisby calls Brown and says get some drivers to move GM trucks.
09 WHILE Marsh is finishing conversation with Frisby… OPS2 Musser calls him.
10 Marsh finishes talking to Frisby and answers OPS2 Musser’s radio call.
11 Jesse Steed gives the “Tools Up” order and all GM start assembling at anchor point ‘rest spot’.
12 Marsh finishes his radio call with Musser and ( apparently ) ‘takes off to the south, right away, ‘scouting ahead” to the Boulder Springs Ranch.
Then… 7 minutes later… at 3:50 PM…
01. OPS1 Abel calls Marsh on a TAC channel. Captured in Caldwell’s video.
02. Marsh tells Abel he is ALREADY “working his way off the top”. ( Marsh is heard breathing hard and exerting himself in that audio capture ).
03. OPS1 Abel doesn’t full understand this means Marsh is already “scouting ahead” to the Boulder Springs Ranch.
04. OPS1 Abel TELLS Marsh to “Hunker and be safe”, thinking they are ‘staying put’ up there.
05. Marsh apparently never makes it clear to Abel he has no intentions of doing so, and that he is ALREADY “scouting ahead” to mark the path for the crew to come down to the Boulder Springs Ranch.
Then… 5 minutes later… at 3:55 PM…
01. We see/hear the two 9 second video/audio clips taken by Chris MacKenzie.
02. Marsh is now so far SOUTH ( and out of sight? ) that Steed seems to be assuming he can no longer see what Steed can see… and he feels the need to tell him where the fireline is.
03. Steed tells Marsh fireline has ‘almost reached the road we walked in on’.
Then… sometime in the next 8 minutes ( between 3:56 PM and 4:04 PM )…
01 An argument ensues.
02 Marsh ends up ORDERING Steed to bring the crew down to Ranch.
03 Steed tells the men to ‘gaggle up’ and head SOUTH towards the Boulder Springs Ranch… but still not at ‘double-time’ or even at anything faster than a normal hiking pace.
The rest is history… and 19 people died.
So my first statement was correct it had crossed the retardant line.
The crew was in the Black and Steed pulled them to that location for one reason.
It was a safe area and I still believe he was in the Black for a SZ not a rest area.
But thanks for the lecture WTKTT.
You really don’t want me on here and Calvin has no clue so lecture to him.
Adios MF
One more thing MF——-
They were in the BLACK they moved from the Line to the BLACK.
A picture says a thousand words.
Continue working the line and be next to unburned fuel and have the fire run at your crew and your now worthless line move to the Black.
The Picture says it all Steed pulled them to the Black where they were safe. It was not just a rest area.
Retardant line is only good as long as the retardant is wet. The fire went right thru it. And was almost to the Road/Cat Line they walked in on near the old grader.
To me the Fire which they could see was moving to the South with a 1 mile or so head. Steed was where he needed to be with the crew until he was ORDERED to move by Marsh.
My conclusion Steed was doing the Right thing until he was ordered by Marsh to move the crew. They were not ordered by any one else and Steed caved in. Thus they both hold the responsibility.
Not any Hell Mary or other conceived plans which can happen a lot on fires by many different Overhead. The safety of the Crew is always number one.
Bob… the POINT that you and RTS keep ‘hammering home’ is not lost on me.
Eric Marsh and Jesse Steed killed the men they were responsible for.
I get it.
But ( and without using that trigger word ‘responsibility’ ), I belong to that category of people who still think there is ‘more to the story’ than just that simple fact.
There couldn’t possibly be a more relevant “Lesson to Learn” to carry forward to all line supervisors other than “Please don’t kill the people you are responsible for”… and that SHOULD be HAMMERED HOME for them ( line supervisors ).
But we still don’t have the ‘full story’.
It remains very, very curious to me that OPS2 Paul Musser says he never ASKED Eric Marsh to do anything at all… yet the evidence now seems to show that the MOMENT Eric Marsh finished that 3:42 PM radio call with Musser… Marsh IMMEDIATELY took off to the south “scouting ahead” ( according to survivor McDonough ) so that GM could get down to the Boulder Springs Ranch…. and beyond?
Whatever happened on THAT radio call remains ‘part of the story’.
We also don’t know if, at that point, Jesse Steed even knew WHY Eric Marsh ‘took off’ on this scouting mission.
Yes… they ‘got in the black’ after they saw their own lookout have to be rescued and could SEE that the ‘tail’ was now a ‘head’ and heading SOUTH…
….but we still don’t know if Jesse Steed KNEW if they were going to be ‘moving’, or not.
We just don’t know what Marsh said to Steed when he ‘took off’ to the south to ‘scout ahead’.
WTKTT,
You posted: “I get it” that Marsh and Steed killed the men they were responsible for yet you follow up with this: “But ( and without using that trigger word ‘responsibility’ ), I belong to that category of people who still think there is ‘more to the story’ than just that simple fact.”
What is SO f**king hard to understand that it does NOT matter one bit what anyone said or didn’t say to Marsh or the GMHS the afternoon of June 30, 2013.
There really is no reason to know ‘the rest of the story’ unless you’re writing a book or something. They are NOT victims of anyone’s decision other than their own. It does NOT matter what the conversation was! The GMHS overhead had the RESPONSIBILITY for their Crew’s safety and welfare. THAT IS ALL THAT MATTERED NO MATTER WHAT WAS DISCUSSED!
So along with that, “Whatever happened on THAT radio call” between OPS Musser and Marsh still “remains ‘part of the story” but to me, it does NOT matter one iota.
LCES is what mattered then and the GMHS did NOT completely comply with the “L” or “S” legs.
You posted: “Yes… they ‘got in the black’ after they saw their own lookout have to be rescued and could SEE that the ‘tail’ was now a ‘head’ and heading SOUTH…”
I disagree here. They ‘got in the black’ because it was the right thing to do to comply with LCES. They had BOTH the best vantage point (LOOKOUT) and the best Safety Zone (the black). They were in their SZ LONG BEFORE the tail became the head and started to head south.
You posted: “….but we still don’t know if Jesse Steed KNEW if they were going to be ‘moving’, or not.
“We just don’t know what Marsh said to Steed when he ‘took off’ to “the south to ‘scout ahead’.”
I believe that Steed KNEW that Marsh wanted them to move down to/toward the BSR, and I believe he KNEW they were going to be moving out or not, based on a strong indication from Marsh during the ‘discussing our options’ Crew Net conversations.
I believe that Steed’s Marine Corps training and experience to “follow orders,” along with the two other Marines on the GMHS, knew that IF Marsh insisted that the leave ‘the black’ and head down to/toward the BSR, then they would follow orders, just like Boot Camp Marines do.
Steed KNEW that Marsh was insistent on them leaving the black and heading down and instead of being DIRECT with him, he used what’s known as ‘MITIGATING SPEECH or HINTING.’
Mitigated speech is communication that is deferential or indirect. It is highlighted in Malcolm Gladwell’s book titled Outliers. Gladwell defines mitigation as “any attempt to downplay or sugarcoat the meaning of what is being said.” This is what Steed was doing when replying to Marsh in the “discussing our options’ Crew Net conversation.
This is a link to an article titled: “Why It’s Important to Understand Direct vs. Mitigated Speech” by Andy Naselli.
http://andynaselli.com/why-its-important-to-understand-direct-vs-mitigated-speech
So, instead of Steed DIRECTLY telling Marsh ‘NO we are NOT leaving the black,’ Steed used what is referred to as ‘MITIGATING SPEECH’ when he is describing the fire activity and fire location because he knows Marsh cannot see the fire from his location. He is ‘HINTING’ to Marsh that this is NOT the time to be leaving the good black.
If Marsh could have seen the fire behavior and location, then he would have told Steed, something like ‘copy, that’s what I see or have been seeing’ or whatever. He did not say that.
Steed is also using ‘MITIGATING SPEECH’ and ‘HINTING’ by saying several times “we are in the black.” He is HOPING Marsh will pick up on the hint based on the degrading fire weather and increasing fire activity.
Sonny,
You are spot on for being a NON-WFF on the retardant effectiveness that day. It was too hot, the brush was too thick, and the fire behavior too aggressive. AND air support, e.g. retardant, buckets, etc. MUST be supported by WFF on the ground. Air support alone is worthless.
And on the retardant drops to save them or anyone for that mater, if one has to rely on retardant drops to SAVE them from burning, just like deploying a fire shelter, then someone has really f**ked up!
The notion of retardant drops SAVING WFF is stuff in the movies and Bleeding Heart Liberal media reports. it does NOT happen in real life.
Here are the six (6) levels of ways we make suggestions based in Malcolm Gladwell’s book, Outlier:
Command – “Strategy X is going to be implemented”
Team Obligation Statement – “We need to try strategy X”
Team Suggestion – “Why don’t we try strategy X”
Query – “Do you think strategy X would help us in this situation?”
Preference – “Perhaps we should take a look at one of these Y alternatives”
Hint – “I wonder if we could run into any roadblocks on our current course”
The last one (Hint) is ‘Mitigating Speech.’
Yes, Bob Powers, when you are committed to the black then what omen, consternation, encouragement, order, fear of disobedience causing resulting consequences, etc. could make you do a stupid thing and go down into a canyon knowing that it was a Russian roulette challenge. Eric Marsh was not stupid. I met the man right below the fire line that Sunday morning on June 30, 2013. He impressed me as one of the fellows that would know his business right to left. Of course as an old man and knowledge of the nature of life, I would never take the risk he and Joy were up to. What then when you are comfortable in the black would make you change your mind to take that risk– Now I might alone but 18 more men behind me, then Steed with 17 behind him.
Consider I had only Joy. She weighed 193 and me 145. She has a right that is pretty damn tough. But then neither of us are bosses over the other. Yet she wanted to do a Marsh/Steed gamble. She did not see it as a gamble an hour before they went down.
Those are the human factors we have to mull over.
Reply to Bob Powers post on January 13, 2016 at 8:57 am
>> Bob Powers said…
>>
>> So my first statement was correct it had
>> crossed the retardant line.
Yes… it did… and we can HEAR DIVSA Eric Marsh reporting this fact to (presumably) OPS1 Todd Abel right around 3:41 PM, and just moments before OP2 Paul Musser would begin his radio ‘callout’ to Marsh.
It’s the radio transmission where we then hear Eric Panebaker himself ‘joking’ about this report from Marsh about the fire just ‘blowing through’ the retardant line with whoever was with him and saying “Where do we record THAT in the Air Study?”
For all we know…. it was Musser overhearing this very report from Marsh that caused him to want to talk to him at that time.
>> Bob Powers said…
>>
>> The crew was in the Black and Steed pulled them to that
>> location for one reason.
>>
>> It was a safe area and I still believe he was in the Black
>> for a SZ not a rest area.
I believe that as well… even though we don’t have any evidence about exactly what Steed might have been thinking at that time, or whether he already knew there *might* be a good chance they would be leaving. That all depends on what Marsh might have said to Steed before he, himself, decided to take off ‘scouting south’ to the Boulder Springs Ranch ( circa 3:44 PM, right after talking with Musser ).
>> Bob Powers said…
>>
>> You really don’t want me on here
Not the case.
As I have said many, many times… I am NOT the moderator of this forum and I have no control over who posts here and who doesn’t.
But in case you haven’t noticed… MY big ‘thing’ is the EVIDENCE.
Whenever I see something posted ( from ANYONE ) that seems to be blatantly ‘getting the facts we DO know about’ wrong… I feel the urge to jump in and at least try to set things straight… to the best of MY knowledge.
I have been wrong myself ( many times ) about what the EVIDENCE record contains… and I am always GRATEFUL, myself, when someone corrects ME…. because I think the EVIDENCE record is all we have… and we have a responsibility here to try and ‘get it right’ as best as we can.
As for all the opining that goes on here as well… that’s a different thing. Everyone is entitled to their opinions and, as Gary Cordes once said…
“The GOOD thing about this forum is that we all have a place to express our opinions. The BAD thing about this forum is that we all have a place to express our opinions”.
If you notice in what you are calling a ‘lecture’ up above… nowhere am I disagreeing with your expressed OPINIONS.
I was ONLY trying to set the FACTS straight with regards to some statements you made and what you seemed to be mis-remembering.
So I hope you continue to post here. You and RTS have made a good team and your insights have been important to understanding things.
But I also can’t promise that I won’t ever again try to correct you on the FACTS… if I think you are getting them wrong.
I have no problem with reading people’s opinions here as long as I feel like they are basing them on whatever FACTS we have, and not some mis-remembered sequence of events.
There are still so many FACTS missing here that I really do feel it’s important to hang on tightly to the hard-earned ones we DO have, and not let them get ‘distorted’.
And that includes myself.
If I ever get the FACTS mixed up myself… I would hope someone ( anyone ) comes out and slams me for it… and shows me where I got mixed up.
and Calvin has no
>> clue so lecture to him.
>>
>> Adios MF
You are taking all this way too personally, Bob.
Fuck You Go To Hell and when you get there learn a little about Fire.
But you wont fined any Fire Fighters There.
All I can say to something like that is…
Please continue to contribute to this discussion.
Your insights are often valuable.
Bob you will find a lot of old miners in hell. Well God only figures them to stay in Heaven for about 3 days. They can’t stand the harp music unless it is on a Guiness bottle.
It is nice to be a Zombie now. That way people look at you like you;have come out of the grave, maybe so, since i never saw Jesus or all the lights the saints see. But I did have peace and plenty of reason that coming back was no big deal and to die was not either. I can not recount that I was out for ten days, Joy kept track of that. But I always tell people I will be back in ten days. I am not impressed to go to heaven since I do not particularly like harp music and pretty angels that do nothing. And let us not forget that we live life and honesty rules–not me, not Donut, not Cordes, not any human factor, though any human factor can send you to your heaven or hell. Ascribe yourself to any translated BS from thousands of years ago or adhere to the truth of the day. Jesus dropped me good Crown Royal out of the skies and aliens good or bad attacked me more than once. Bullets won’t kill them–they are holograms from hell– but truth dissolves them in a heart beat.
I forgot to add not ‘king Jorge or queen lizzy. Sorry
That about king geo and quene lizzy should go behind Cordes in my comment.
Reply to Woodsman post on January 12, 2016 at 2:42 am
>> Woodsman said…
>>
>> I didn’t find a ‘Dan’ or ‘Daniel’ Sullivan in the USFS employee directory but did find
>> one in the Park Service directory. When searching the web, I came across this
>> (at first glance it looked like a dead end, which it still may be………but towards
>> the bottom I found something very interesting.)
>>
>> http://www.survivalsullivan.com/how-to-survive-a-wildfire/
>>
>> Marti replied…
>>
>> “Sullivan” didn’t write that article. Someone named Karen Hendry did.
>> Also not really any “detail” about the Yarnell Fire. Just some boiler-plate
>> about Brendan.
Woodsman… good catch… but Marti is right.
This ‘Survival Sullivan’ guy is not the ‘Dan Sullivan’ who was hired as an ASGS ( Air Support Group Supervisor ) for Yarnell and was there on June 30, 2013… and who worked ( past tense? ) for the Prescott National Forest.
SIDENOTE: Survival Sullivan’s ‘bolier plate’ about Brendan was totally inaccurate… and in one of the comments under the article it appears that ‘Holly Neill’ herself called him out on it. Holly Neill is the one who runs that ‘Safety Matters’ Facebook site where the following comment came from…
—————————————————————————
Reply · Nov 29, 2015 10:38am
Reply From: Safety Matters: A Wildland Firefighter Forum for Change
Some good tips and advice to the public overall. However, you go on to make questionable statements about the Yarnell Hill Fire. Specifically, that McDonough radioed his crew that they should evacuate as well. There is no available evidence to date to suggest that McDonough told his own crew to evacuate, nor any evidence to suggest that they took his advice. It is misleading and an oversimplification to state that he told his team to evac and when they attempted to do so, they died simply because they didn’t have enough time to get out, (get out of, by the way, good safe black to start with). Stick to solid tips for wildfire public safety and your article is helpful. Your statements and assumptions about McDonough need to be reevaluated for accuracy.
—————————————————————————-
>> Woodsman also said…
>>
>> I’m looking over the resource order you posted. Released to Phoenix airport?
>>
>> Marti replied…
>>
>> Off the top of my head, a lot of folks were “released” to the “Airport.” That sort
>> of stymied me for awhile. As it turns out It’s probably kind of a generic term.
>> The Arizona Dispatch Center is at the Phoenix Interagency Fire Center which is
>> located at the Phoenix-Mesa Gateway Airport in Mesa, AZ I’m pretty sure that’s
>> what that means.
Agree. There were a LOT of ‘Resource Orders’ that show this ‘release’ to the AIRPORT, even if they are LOCAL people and not ‘flown in’, or something.
>> Woodsman also said…
>>
>> Also authorized for personal vehicle or rental?
>> May be nothing.
I think that actually DOES indicate something relevant.
If you look at other ‘Resource Orders’ ( like Paul Musser’s, etc. )… this notation about ‘RENTAL AOV, POV’ seems to always mean that the VEHICLE this person will be arriving in is actually ALL THREE of those things.
As is the case with Paul Musser’s entry.
We KNOW now that he was driving that dark-blue 2-door pickup with the government plate, the Arizona ’round’ logo on the door and the ‘Arizona Incident Management Team’ square logo on the side.
It was a STATE RENTAL… which means it was an AOV ( Agency Owned Vehicle ), but Musser appears to have also been able to ‘take it home’ so I guess that means it would also qualify for the POV ( Personal Vehicle ) designation.
So if Dan Sullivan’s entry matches Musser’s… then it’s likely he WAS driving a ‘Prescott National Forest’ owned vehicle that day… and it was ‘all-aquamarine’ forestry bluish/greenish color.
** ANOTHER SEARCH HIT?
Here is another ‘interesting’ search hit for ‘Dan Sullivan’ related to the Yarnell fire.
That name appears in that PHOENIX CBS(5) media story that appeared with even Yarnell FFs testifying that the Yarnell fire definitely COULD / SHOULD have been put out on ‘day one’.
The article was written by Morgan Loew… who I believe Joy Collura has met.
The article is here…
PHOENIX – CBS(5) – WorldNow Online
Firefighter: We could have put out Yarnell Hill Fire on Day One
Published: Feb 26, 2014 9:20 PM CST
http://raycomgroup.worldnow.com/story/24835120/firefighter-we-could-have-put-out-yarnell-hill-fire-on-day-one
From the article…
—————————————————————————————
PHOENIX (CBS5) –
A former Yarnell volunteer firefighter said it was possible to put out the deadliest wildfire in more than three decades, when it was still just a wisp of smoke. Meantime, CBS 5 Investigates found state dispatchers failed to call in some of the closest firefighters and equipment.
“We could have driven up part of the way and walked the rest of the way with shovels and a bucket of water in our hands,” said LeRoy Anderson, who was a volunteer firefighter with the Yarnell Fire Department on June 28. That was the day a lightning strike started the Yarnell Hill Fire.
“The fire, for basically the whole night, was the size of a Buick. It wasn’t very big at all,” said Anderson.
Anderson told CBS 5 Investigates he did not see an urgency to put out the flames, on the part of the Yarnell Fire Department.
“There were convenient reasons not to go. Let’s put it that way,” said Anderson.
** DAN SULLIVAN
Dan Sullivan owns Lynx Wildland Fire Co. He is a private contractor, located in Prescott, just 40 minutes from Yarnell.
Sullivan said the federal government calls him and his equipment into action several times per year, but the state of Arizona rarely does. Despite Sullivan and his equipment’s close proximity to the Yarnell Hill Fire, he was not called into service. He and other private contractors told CBS 5 Investigates they are rarely used by state fire officials, despite the fact that they are fully certified to fight wildland fires.
—————————————————————————————
“Dan Sullivan owns Lynx Wildland Fire Co. He is a private contractor, located in Prescott, just 40 minutes from Yarnell.”
Not sure how this cold be the SAME ‘Dan Sullivan’ who WAS hired as an ASGS for Yarnell on June 30, 2013, but it’s interesting that there would be ANOTHER ‘Dan Sullivan’ there in Prescott running some PRIVATE Wildland Firefighting company.
Is it even POSSIBLE that you could be employed by a local National Forest ( The Prescott National Forest ) AND also be running your OWN private WFF company ‘at the same time’?
More later.
Re:
“Dan Sullivan owns Lynx Wildland Fire Co.”
I really totally hard-corely think that’s a very different Dan Sullivan.
Did a bunch of googling of Dan Sullivan earlier today. The one who (ahem) is related to “fire and aviation.” I still can’t figure out who he is employed by.
But he’s a major player on the Region 3 Incident Management Team circuit.
Here is Dan Sullivan, SWIMT 3 Air Operations Branch Director Dan Sullivan, speaking on Day 7 of the Assayi Lake Fire, on the Navajo Reservation, June 20, 2014, He starts at 6:29 on the video, after Southwest Incident Management Team 3 Operations Chief Todd Abel gives a general briefing.
From the YouTube version:
“Day 7 – Assayii Lake Fire “largest” fire on Navajo Reservation”
https://youtu.be/0dKzc3c7L0I?t=6m29s
“Published on Jun 20, 2014
The Assayii Lake Fire is at 20 percent containment. That’s according to a June 19, 2014, evening fire report from the Southwest Incident Management Team 3. And the fire is also at 13,450 acres, which only a growth of two acres since this morning’s fire briefing at the Tse Hootosi Middle School “Tin House” in Fort Defiance, Ariz., at 9 a.m. and a morning fire report that was released after the briefing.
At this morning’s fire briefing, SWIMT 3 Operations Chief Todd Abel said, “It was a very good day yesterday. The winds calmed down a little bit for us. It was fairly windy but not like the previous days. So a lot of good work was done yesterday. We anticipate today with the lack of wind things will go real good.”
“The winds finally started breaking yesterday, and we were just about able to get all our aircraft in the air,” SWIMT 3 Air Operations Branch Director Dan Sullivan said, “And they’ll support the guys on the line directly. As Todd’s folks are on the line digging line and stuff, we’re coming in with helicopters with water and cooling the fire edge down so they can get right next to it and put a hand line in. So yesterday was a very successful day.”
Sullivan reported that the DC-10 air tanker, which he described as “relatively new,” holds 11,000 gallons of fire retardant and it made three drops on the fire yesterday.
He said that “multiple” other air tankers also made several drops yesterday.
Air operations also has four Type 1 helicopters that can hold about 1,00 gallons of water each and most of them “timed out” after flying for about seven or eight hours yesterday, Sullivan added. “So it was an extremely successful day and we’re looking forward to the same thing today.”
He explained that the high winds of previous days grounded air support because it’s “not safe to fly the aircraft that close to the ground.”
The website where I got that from, as i was following the Assayii Lake Fire in 2014, is here:
Marley Shebala’s Notebook: Keeping an eye on Navajo Government: YOUTUBE VIDEO: DAY 7 – ASSAYII LAKE FIRE “LARGEST FIRE” ON NAVAJO RESERVATION
http://www.dineresourcesandinfocenter.org/youtube-video-day-7-assayii-lake-fire-largest-fire-on-navajo-reservation/
“YouTub Video “Day 7 – Assayii Lake Fire “largest fire” on the Navajo Reservation”, which is a recording of the June 19, 2014, morning fire briefing, is also available for viewing.
At this morning’s fire briefing, SWIMT 3 Operations Chief Todd Abel said, “It was a very good day yesterday. The winds calmed down a little bit for us. It was fairly windy but not like the previous days. So a lot of good work was done yesterday. We anticipate today with the lack of wind things will go real good.”
“The winds finally started breaking yesterday, and we were just about able to get all our aircraft in the air,” SWIMT 3 Air Operations Branch Director Dan Sullivan said, “And they’ll support the guys on the line directly. As Todd’s folks are on the line digging line and stuff, we’re coming in with helicopters with water and cooling the fire edge down so they can get right next to it and put a hand line in. So yesterday was a very successful day.”
Sullivan reported that the DC-10 air tanker, which he described as “relatively new,” holds 11,000 gallons of fire retardant and it made three drops on the fire yesterday.
He said that “multiple” other air tankers also made several drops yesterday.
Air operations also has four Type 1 helicopters that can hold about 1,00 gallons of water each and most of them “timed out” after flying for about seven or eight hours yesterday, Sullivan added. “So it was an extremely successful day and we’re looking forward to the same thing today.”
He explained that the high winds of previous days grounded air support because it’s “not safe to fly the aircraft that close to the ground.”
This video shows VERY CLEARLY what “our” DAN SULLIVAN looks like.
Yes… it does… and it also seems to prove that he was in the ‘habit’ of wearing a BALL CAP on fire assignments.
That matches one of the details Bryan Smith remembers about his rescue.
He has no beard in the video… but he does seem to have sort of a ‘pointy chin’… and sometimes people like that who choose to grow beards end up with that ‘triangular shape’ that Bryan Smith also seems to be remembering.
Even though I couldn’t pin down his employment specifically, I wouldn’t be surprised if he’s somehow related, since he had his start as a Prescott Hotshot, to the USFS Prescott Fire Center Henry Y. H. Kim Aviation Facility.
http://www.fs.usda.gov/detail/prescott/about-forest/?cid=fswdev3_009828
“The Prescott Fire Center and Henry Y.H. Kim Aviation Facility was officially dedicated in May 1992.
The Forest Service named this facility in honor of Henry Y.H. Kim, a pilot and Regional Aviation Safety Officer for the Southwestern Region of the Forest Service. A graduate of the U.S. Naval Academy, Kim was a naval aviator and retired commander prior to his service with the Forest Service. He died in 1991 while flying a lead plane mission on a forest fire in New Mexico.”
Well the discussion down below by RTS and Woodsman brought me back for a follow up.
GMHS Move to the Black.
2 reasons which I believe Steed moved them to what he considered a Safety zone not a Rest area.
The last to arrive and take seats were the Saws as shown in the 2 videos. They would have been in front of the line construction and the last to arrive at location of the crew.
When Steed could see the Lookout being run out of his location and the increased fire activity That was going to compromise all the line they had been building. ( you can guess what ever from 200 FT. to a Half mile) Go back and look at the Fire Activity not the crew the two 9 second videos are very telling as to what the fire was doing during those 18 seconds the spot where the smoke was laying down to the South- SE says their is a good wind coming out of the North and will push the fire across the flats and up the mountain they are sitting on.
We also have a couple of things from the Radio statements.
GM is committed to the Black. This came from a direct statement to OPS about moving to Yarnell.
The fire has crossed the Retardant Line This came fro a direct statement to Marsh from Steed.
At this point is where the Direct Safety of the Crew falls to Steed.
No matter who asked them to move or redeploy. DIVS or OPS or IC Steed had the Safety to consider.
At that point they had all the safety rules to fall back on to say no and Steed had already confirmed they were Committed to the safe black and that was acceptable to OPS/IC .
At this point they could have said no to any body and been justified.
Except MARSH had any other DIVS asked them to move to the BSR I believe at their location they would have refused. Marsh used his over all control of the crew and steed to force a move for what ever reason.
Steed still had the opportunity to move safely or stay in the black. Evaluating the 18 Situations and the TEN Standard Orders. to determine if they could move safely to the BSR They absolutely needed LCES to move.
Steed needed to have contact with the DIVS and the DIVS needed to discuss the move with OPS to get clearance………..That was not done remember WE ARE COMMITTED TO THE BLACK.
The escape route was not a fast accessible route. and it violated the Lookout and the Escape route protocol. Their were at least 3 watch outs that were ignored that had killed others in the past.
Steed could have stayed in the Black on those alone and said NO.
So my Final Conclusion along with RTS— Steed and Marsh are the Final ones that are responsible.
At that point, The DIVS was not in the discussion had there been a DIVS that was not attached to the crew I believe they would have stayed in the BLACK. I believe that is a key point in this discussion. The Black was the safest place to be based on their location on the fire.
The move went against all the rules. Those are the indisputable Facts. I could put a 100 HS Superintendents in a room and they would tell you the same thing. The supervisors hold the final responsibility. Marsh and Steed killed their crew and them self’s….
Rod Wrench, Larry Boggs, Chet Cash, Mike Dorty, Bill Williams, Cole Johnson, Dale Jarrell to name a few old ones that I have talked with. Severial Superintendents from R3 including Frizby and those that RTS has talked to. Including all the Hot Shot Superintendents retired and not retired that meet yearly in California, of witch RTS and my self belong to.
Woodsman a good DIVS, STLD would make sure their crews were safe and the crews would and should also evaluate their safety right down to a 2 man IA on a Lightening Fire.
Safety starts as you have said with a FF first 40 Hr. training and every year there after with refreshing courses on the 10 and 18. you Said that back a ways and you were right.
.
I get RTS and Bob Power’s facts…
Yet due to missing elements will not stand there yet.
Just because my dad had lung cancer and health problems and dies in his sleep everyone on one area of family are upset I’m doing DNA toxicology on my own pops…its clarity and details and its closure for me and so in parallel I am the same on this fire because had I not met retired higher ups and other firefighters I would say we covered and did our part on yhf but we know there is more and missing elementsh
I understand Joy The closure is with all the information but some times that never comes. the true facts regardless of any requests or orders is each Crew, FF or overhead has the ability to say no based on the 10 and 18. and in this case there was a lot of safety facts to fall back on to turn down what they did. Marsh controlled the crew beyond that no one else controlled them.
Articulate—- the 10, LCES and the portions of the 18 that are significant points.
Say we are safer here than moving down thru a brush filled Canyon regardless of any new assignment.
Our safety evaluation dictates we stay in the black. The move has to many bad points to make it a good choice and outcome. Weather prediction, Time of day, No pre cut trail, the fire is less than 3/4 mile from the route we would take, no Look Out, Verses staying in the Black which has all good outcomes and no violations of the 10 and 18.
That’s all they had to do and 20 min. latter they would have proved their point as the Fire activity escalated the winds picked up and the fire started making its run.
I do not disagree and even encourage people to stand at attention when you both write and nothing you both have stated has been wrong. Facts.
I know more and saw footage and that in my humble opinion should be spoken public first hand not by me. I will go to Hart family next and see if Gary Cordes saved them. Its all about the fire being properly assessed with the ones to speak up…oh geez I had family dramatics today that I totally forgot interview.. Let me go call him…shit…darn shame some in my family can’t get because both my brothers and I have poor health we just want more in depth to know why my pops died in his sleep…but boy the perceptions of another can be way off…
And I state here to the world I stand by RTS and Bob Powers yet for me I just need a select number to speak up and if they don’t than that’s that and hail Mary plan my way to RTS and Bob…
Bob,
Thanks for staying on point with The WFF Basics and the GMHS leadership failure to follow them and heed the Watch Outs. And the GMHS leadership failures that resulted in them getting their Crew and themselves killed.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/2-Matchbox-Chevrolets-Suburban-GREEN-FOREST-RANGER-Tahoe-RED-FIRE-1-64-Loose-/301691356628
this is the way he was describing the vehicle WWTKTT and he was FIRM not flexible on his description.—surburban/van like—four doors.
https://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3342/3183392245_2dbb606c12.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.flickriver.com/photos/navymailman/tags/suv/&h=333&w=500&tbnid=6KNSg5O5TLJkKM:&docid=mu143y3KkO5eFM&ei=OpWUVri0KdHgjwORq4OYBQ&tbm=isch&ved=0ahUKEwi4ubqQy6PKAhVR8GMKHZHVAFMQMwhTKC8wLw
https://www.flickr.com/photos/navymailman/3183392245/
https://www.flickr.com/photos/navymailman/3664806214/
https://www.flickr.com/photos/navymailman/3877234704/
im tired—gotta crash but the above vehicles are the ones CONFIRMED by Bryan Smith—the van/suburban four door vehicle with maps/plans rolled up—
That is the vehicle…
Reply to Joy A. Collura post on January 11, 2016 at 11:04 pm
>> Joy A. Collura said…
>>
>> The above vehicles are the ones CONFIRMED by Bryan Smith.
>> The van/suburban four door vehicle with maps/plans rolled up.
>> That is the vehicle…
Good job, Joy. And continuing THANKS to Bryan Smith as well.
So that means…
1. It was NOT Gary Cordes
2. It was NOT Prescott National Forest employee Jason Clawson.
3. It was NOT the Blue Ridge ‘Chase’ pickup truck.
As it turns out… there was actually ANOTHER ‘mystery man’ there in Yarnell all day who worked for the Prescott National Forest, and most likely would have been driving an ‘all-aquamarine’ forestry bluish/green vehicle in Yarnell that day.
His NAME was Dan Sullivan.
He was HIRED for Yarnell as an ASGS ( Air Support Group Supervisor ).
We KNOW he was there, thanks to the ‘Resource Order’ records AND because of entries in Yarnell Helibase Manager Brad Zeitler’s Unit Log.
We KNOW that he worked with Brad Zeitler just before NOON helping to talk to Maughn Ranch manager Don Glascow and to try and get a better Helibase going there in Yarnell that day.
But other than that… we still know very little about his involvement with the Yarnell Hill Fire and what he was DOING the rest of the day.
When this ASGS ‘Dan Sullivan’ was discussed before… there was the definite possibility ( and there still is ) that HE could have been one of the ‘mysterious’ voices we hear in some of the Air-To-Air and Air-To-Ground radio captures. He might even be the one who seemed to be urging Eric Marsh to “Hurry Up” in the YARNELL-GAMBLE video.
This Dan Sullivan was NEVER interviewed by ANYONE, nor did he ever submit his own ‘Unit Log’ for Yarnell… even though we KNOW he was there working the fire.
Here are the entries from Brad Zeitler’s Unit Log proving that this ‘Dan Sullivan’ from the ‘Prescott National Forest’ was THERE that day…
Brad Zeitler was Helibase Manager in Yarnell on Sunday, June 30, 2013, until the HEB1 that was on order for the Type 1 team arrived.
From Brad Zeitler’s Unit Log…
—————————————————–
1115 ( 11:15 AM )
Received contact information for the manager of Maughn Ranches, Met with Ranch Manager Don Glascow and advised that we needed to create a land use agreement with the ranch for helicopter operations. Also advised that the original helibase site could not meet out needs, and asked if he had any suggestions for an alternate site. He agreed to meet me back at the Incident Command Post for further discussion.
1130 ( 11:30 AM )
Dan Sullivan, a qualified Air Support Group Supervisor from the Prescott National Forest arrived and offered to assist.
1150 ( 11:50 PM )
Dan Sullivan and myself met with Don Glascow at the Incident Command Post and discussed an alternative helibase location. Don offered a private airstrip owned by the ranch. Dan said that he would check out the airstrip to see if it could safely meet our needs.
————————————————————–
NOTE: ‘Dan Sullivan’ is never mentioned again in Brad Zeitler’s Unit Log.
So it is THIS entry in Zeitler’s log that proves Dan Sullivan was from the ‘Prescott National Forest’ ( AZ-PNF ), which ALSO means it was ‘highly likely’ he arrived driving some kind of standard all-aquamarine forestry greenish/bluish vehicle… possibly with 4 doors and possibly the ‘SUV/Suburban’ style that Bryan Smith recalls…
—————————————————
1130 ( 11:30 AM )
Dan Sullivan, a qualified Air Support Group Supervisor from the Prescott National Forest arrived and offered to assist.
—————————————————
And here is ‘Dan Sullivans’ actual ‘Resource Order’ which also proves he was from the Prescott National Forest.
Dan Sullivan ( Air Support Group Supervisor – ASGS ) had a ‘Resource
Assigned Unit ID of AZ-PNF ).
From PDF page 141 of the ‘J- Resource Orders.pdf’ document.
————————————————–
Request number: O-30
Ordered Date/Time: 06/30/13 0934 ( 9:34 AM ) PNT
From: AZ-ADC ( Dispatch ) 800-309-7081
To: AZ-ADC
Qty: 1
Resource Requested: AIR SUPPORT GROUP SUPERVISOR (ASGS)
Needed Date/Time: 06/30/13 1100 ( 11:00 AM ) PNT
Deliver To: YARNELL HILL
From Unit: AZ-PDC
To Unit: AZ-ADC
Assigned Date/Time: 06/30/13 1010 ( 10:10 AM ) PNT
Resource Assigned Unit ID: AZ-PNF ( Arizona – Prescott National Forest )
Resource Assigned: Sullivan, Dan (AZ-PDC) [EFF/AD]
M/D Ind.: D
Estimated Time Of Departure: 07/01/13 1630 ( 4:30 PM ) PNT
Esitmated Time Of Arrival: 07/01/13 1650 ( 4:50 PM ) PNT
Released Date: 07/03/13 1238 ( 12:38 PM ) PNT
Released To: PHOENIX SKY HARBOR INTL (PHX)
Travel Mode: ( No entry )
Financial Code: AZ-A1S-130688 ( Yarnell Hill Fire )
Special Needs: NAME REQUEST FOR DAN SULLIVAN, RENTAL AOV, POV
Reporting Instructions: ICP MIDDLE CREEK SCHOOL IN PEEPLES
VALLEY 18912 HAYS RANCH ROAD, PEEPLES VALLEY AZ. REPORT
TO BRAD ZETTLER ( Yarnell Fire Helibase Manager )
————————————————–
Unfortunately, this ‘Dan Sullivan’ remains a ‘mystery man’ ( since no one ever interviewed him and there is no Unit Log from him ).
There also aren’t any pictures of him ( yet ).
Let me try to ‘run this to ground’ some more.
I seem to recall a ‘Prescott National Forest’ command vehicle just like the ones in the pictures about appearing along with a bunch of other ‘Prescott National Forest’ vehicles in the Granite Mountain funeral procession with the 19 white hearses, when the bodies were transported from Phoenix back to Prescott.
Let me go look at one or two of those MANY public videos of that ‘funeral procession’ and I’ll let you know if I see that vehicle in any of them.
Thanks again. Making progress here.
WTKTT:
I didn’t find a ‘Dan’ or ‘Daniel’ Sullivan in the USFS employee directory but did find one in the Park Service directory. When searching the web, I came across this (at first glance it looked like a dead end, which it still may be………but towards the bottom I found something very interesting.)
http://www.survivalsullivan.com/how-to-survive-a-wildfire/
Most of us wff can’t help but talk about in some way. He says Dan Sullivan is a pen name and he is from Romania – sure goes into some detail on the Yarnell fire though.
I’m looking over the resource order you posted. Released to Phoenix airport? Also authorized for personal vehicle or rental?
May be nothing.
Woodsman
“Sullivan” didn’t write that article. Someone named Karen Hendry did.
Also not really any “detail” about the Yarnell Fire. Just some boiler-plate about Brendan.
Interesting article, though.
Also interesting that you can’t find this guy in the USFS directory.
Off the top of my head, a lot of folks were “released” to the “Airport.” That sort of stymied me for awhile. As it turns out It’s probably kind of a generic term. The Arizona Dispatch Center is at the Phoenix Interagency Fire Center which is located at the Phoenix-Mesa Gateway Airport in Mesa, AZ I’m pretty sure that’s what that means.
Blast from the past;
“[Prescott National Forest] Hot Shots in Minnesota, Canada” from the Prescott Daily Courier, May 7, 1998
https://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=894&dat=19980507&id=TLUKAAAAIBAJ&sjid=gk0DAAAAIBAJ&pg=6679,1000200&hl=en
“This year’s Prescott Hot Shots crew consists of Superintendent Tony Schiacca, foremen Jeff Andrews and Curtis Heaton, and firefighters………Jayson Clawson, Dan Sullivan, Julian Magallanaz, Brian Knapp……….”
I’m pretty sure that’s the Dan Sullivan we’re talking about.
OK now it’s REALLY time for me to go back to bed. Curiosity is both my blessing and my curse.
I have no actual proof of this:
“I’m pretty sure that’s the Dan Sullivan we’re talking about.’
But I’d bet dollars to donuts that’s true, all things considered.
I guess I am just waking up via cell but did not like to catch Brian Knapp in Marti comment as a firefighter because it made me feel who now is yhf Craig Knapp in all this and is there any tie now to Knapp and the firefighters community… I am half awake but the name Knapp woke me up… Dan Sullivan… Let me go to Leonard Hunter because I think he has a business card of Dan Sullivan from 6-30-13…be back on that one
LOL!! Just woke up to see your comment.
Sorry, Joy!
I was thinking, I have NO CLUE who the rest of the people are! I was lucky to find Tony Sciacca, Jayson Clawsen, and Dan Sullivan mentioned close enough together to cut and paste them.
Awesome about the biz card!
Kudos to both of you, Joy and WTKTT.
I was awakened by a pretty powerful blood sugar crash (I just love my diabetes) in the middle of the night, and have been sitting here reading this and thinking about it as I sat here radically upping my glucose count while still halfway asleep — always kind of a mind-bending experience in itself.
The thing that was puzzling me was that I didn’t remember seeing a truck like this crossing the Air2Air video camera, other than the “Three Prescotteers” trucks. I do kind of use that as something of a visual data-base for most of the vehicles, generally speaking. Of course, it’s not perfect, but it’s one of the best things we’ve got, along with the Tom Story RHR parking lot collection (which I was also thinking back through with no results). We also have various and sundry photos of the Incident Command Post. Something might show up there.
Didn’t even think about this way of approaching it. Gary Olsen’s right. You have a spreadsheet mind, as well as, I bet, the best actual spreadsheets on the planet regarding this fire (which I’ve always known, anyway).
You might not be right about this, yet. On the other hand, you might not be right. Either way, it’s another chop chop on the whole tree of this fire.
It’s just mind-boggling, however, in its implications, regarding Gary Cordes. Whether or not you have correctly identified who actually rescued these two elders, the reality that it wasn’t Gary Cordes is serious. WTF???
Gary Cordes has some serious ‘splaining to do regarding not only this but a bunch of other things. Whether anybody will actually hold him accountable for these things (and I know you know exactly what I’m speaking of) is anybody’s guess.
OK I’m finally ready to go back to sleep. Again, thank you.
Namaste.
Oops. Typo. Meant to say::
“You might not be right about this, yet. On the other hand, you might be right. Either way, it’s another chop chop on the whole tree of this fire.”
We may never be able to fully identify who was driving that all-aquamarine 4-door SUV/Suburban that rescued Bryan Smith and his cousin Pearl Moore… but the most relevant thing is that we can now say for certain ( thanks to Joy and Mr. Smith ) that it was NOT Gary Cordes.
More to come on this…
Shakespeare, the writer of this wildfire, hits again.
Reply to Joy A. Collura post on January 9, 2016 at 1:48 pm
>> Joy A. Collura said…
>>
>> WWTKTT asked some additional questions along with Calvin to Glen Ilah
>> resident Bryan Smith and so I called and did not get and answer but I did
>> not just stop there. I sat down and began to write. When Bryan got the letter
>> he called me today 1-9-16 8:48am and spent over a half hour
>> answering the questions.
Thank you for following up with this, Joy.
I still think it’s important to know WHO actually rescued WHO that day, especially since some people that have already received ‘awards’ for certain things might not actually be the ones who deserve the REAL credit. ( Gary Cordes, etc. ).
>> Joy A. Collura said…
>>
>> The forestry truck aquamarine he said it was not a square box but he
>> kept stating “carry all- extended cab Suburban/van like feel to it but not
>> a normal truck if considered one. He is not familiar with firefighter trucks so
>> I am going to ask you WWTKTT to email me some photos of the men and
>> vehicles used that day to show him in person.
Again… thank you, Joy. That’s important information and it pretty much just confirms that it could NOT have been SPGS1 Gary Cordes who was rescuing both Bryan and his cousin Pearl… as he seemed to claim he did in both his Unit Log and during his ADOSH interview.
That ‘all-aquamarine’ forestry greenish truck color is ‘reserved’ for vehicles that are assigned to US Forestry installations such as National Parks and whatnot.
That’s the same ‘aquamarine’ truck color used for all of the following Arizona vehicles…
1. The Prescott National Forest vehicles… including the ‘Prescott Hotshots’. vehicles.
2. The Blue Ridge Hotshot Vehicles ( based at the Coconino National Forest ).
3. Other US Forestry installation vehicles.
The PROBLEM we have now is that other than the ‘Blue Ridge Hotshot’ vehicles that were there working the Yarnell Hill Fire on June 30, 2013, the evidence record only contains ONE ‘other’ vehicle that might match that ‘all-aquamarine’ description.
That would be ‘off-the-radar’ hire Jason Clawson from the Prescott National Forest.
He WAS driving an ‘all-aquamarine’ 2-door extended cab pickup with a camper top that day the whole time he was in Yarnell.
However… the evidence record also says that once he and fellow PNF ‘off-the-radar’ hires Aaron Hulburd and KC ‘Bucky’ Yowell arrived there on Shrine Road in time for Aaron Hulburd himself to film his ‘Helmet Cam’ videos and capture the MADYAY traffic coming from Granite Mountain… Clawson, Hulburd and Yowell definitely appear to have REMAINED there on Shrine Road and never participated in anything that was going on down in Glen Ilah.
The evidence record says that NONE of these men ( including Jason Clawson with his all-aquamarine pickup truck ) ever left the Shrine Road area following the MAYDAY traffic and they were already THERE when Brian Frisby and Trueheart Brown showed up in their Polaris Ranger on that ‘ground rescue mission’.
Clawson, Hulburd and Yowell then just ‘joined’ Frisby and Brown on that ‘ground rescue mission’ ( in their own ATV/UTVs ) and they all ‘broke through’ together and all five of them eventually ended up at the actual deployment site.
So even though the vehicle that Bryan Smith seems to now be describing SOUNDS like the one that PNF employee Jason Clawson was driving… the evidence record currently suggests there’s just no way that Clawson could have been down there in Glen Ilah being the one to ‘rescue’ Bryan Smith and his cousin Pearl Moore.
And, as has already been established, the evidence record also says that the only other known ‘all-aquamarine’ vehicles there that afternoon were the ‘Blue Ridge’ vehicles and there is no evidence that ANY of those 4 vehicles of theirs ever left the Ranch House Restaurant parking lot during the timeframe in question.
So this one remains a real head-scratcher.
>> Joy A. Collura said…
>>
>> The door he was to enter was locked and had to make room for him to enter.
It’s still pretty important to know if we are talking about a 2-door, or a 4-door vehicle.
In other words… some people call an ‘extended cab’ pickup one of those where it still only has 2-doors and you have to still sort of ‘crawl’ into the back seat.
Does Bryan remember having to do THAT… or did the vehicle actually have FOUR doors and he was able to just ‘get in’ via his own door once whoever that was just ‘made room for him to enter’.
It would still help a lot in nailing down this vehicle to know if it really did have just 2 doors or whether it was a 4-door truck.
>> Joy A. Collura said…
>>
>> He said the driver is not Gary Cordes for the thinner younger man than
>> Cordes had a kept up trimmed beard and I do not know who the zig zag man
>> is but he said like zig zag man but no so pointy.
Well… then things get even stranger… because THAT ‘zig zag man’ and the beard description actually means it COULD have still been PNF employee Jason Clawson, who WAS driving an ‘all-aquamarine’ 2-door extended cab pickup that day ( with a camper top and towing an ATV on a trailer ).
Even PNF employee KC ‘Bucky’ Yowell had that kind of ‘triangle’ beard… but Yowell was driving an all-white pickup with green stripes that day.
>> Joy A. Collura said…
>>
>> The driver pulled up and said “get in” as he unlocked vehicle and moved stuff
>> to make room for Bryan and Bryan said he had to go get Pearl still..
So… when Bryan first flagged down this ‘all-aquamarine’ vehicle… the driver still had to ‘move stuff’ so that Bryan could ‘ride shotgun’ and get in the passenger side?
Again… I know it might be hard for Bryan to recall… but it would still be helpful if he can remember if it was just one of those 2-door extended cab trucks where you can carry passengers but they have to sort of ‘crawl’ into the back jump seats… or whether it really was a 4-door vehicle.
>> Joy A. Collura said…
>>
>> Than I asked about helmet of driver and he said it was more like
>> a baseball cap—no hard hat/helmet.
Curiouser and curiouser, then.
Jason Clawson, the ONLY other person we know of who was driving an ‘all-aquamarine’ truck that day, was ALWAYS wearing a WHITE Helmet that day… as far as we know.
His fellow PNF employee, KC ‘Bucky’ Yowell, was, however, wearing a ‘ball cap’ until shortly after the MAYDAY calls and he also has a ‘triangular beard’.
So there are some details here that almost make it SOUND like it could have been Prescott National Forest employee(s) Jason Clawson or KC ‘Bucky’ Yowell… but the evidence record really also seems to indicate that is impossible.
All that being said… do me a favor and have Mr. Bryan Smith watch the following VIDEO and see if he recognizes either Jason Clawson, his ‘all-aquamarine’ pickup truck, or even ( perhaps ) if he recognizes KC ‘Bucky’ Yowell and his ‘camo-ballcap’.
NOTE: KC ‘Bucky’ Yowell switched from his ‘camo-ballcap’ to a BLACK Helmet right in the middle of that original ‘Helmet Cam’ video shot by Aaron Hulburd, and then Yowell never went back to his ‘camo-ballcap’ the rest of the afternoon/evening.
The following VIDEO isn’t really a VIDEO at all. It’s more like just a SLIDESHOW.
But it DOES show clearly this other ‘all-aquamarine’ 2-door pickup truck that PNF employee Jason Clawson was driving that day… and it DOES have some clear pictures of what Jason Clawson, KC ‘Bucky’ Yowell, and Aaron Hulburd all looked like that day.
Aaron Hulburd himself is hard to find pictures of, but as this ‘slideshow’ shows, he managed to take a pretty good ‘self portrait’ during his own ‘Helmet Cam’ video.
YouTube video title: PNF-employees-at-YHF
Direct link to this YouTube video…
http://youtu.be/q-QOU1JgEag
YouTube ‘About’ information…
——————————————————————–
Various photos from the public evidence record of Prescott National Forest ( PNF ) employees Jason Clawson, Aaron Hulburd, and KC ‘Bucky’ Yowell working at the Yarnell Hill Fire on June 30, 2013. Includes photos of the vehicles each one was driving that day. PNF employee Aaron Hulburd is the one who actually filmed all of the ‘Helmet Cam’ videos that were eventually released. Clawson, Hulburd and Yowell also actively participated in the ‘ground rescue’ mission following the deployment, even though they were actually just ‘freelancing’ that afternoon and had no ‘official’ fire command assignments.
——————————————————————–
At +10 seconds into this video is a clear view of the ‘all-aquamarine’ 2-door pickup ( camper top ) that Jason Clawson was driving on June 30, 2013 in Yarnell.
It’s followed by a closeup picture of Jason Clawson ( in profile ) showing that he was, in fact, sporting a very neatly trimmed ‘trianglular’ style beard/goatee that day.
But again… Jason Clawson was ALWAYS wearing a WHITE Helmet that day, and there is no evidence that he ever left the Shrine Road area either just before, or anytime after the ‘deployment radio traffic’.
Either way… thanks once again, Joy… and just see if Mr. Bryan Smith recognizes ANYTHING in this slideshow/video… trucks or people.
Thanks WTKTT.
Real headscratcher. Even with the confusion, I think the really important part is that, apparently Gary Cordes wasn’t the one involved in this rescue. Hmmmmmmm.
Along with a number of other Hmmmmmmmmmms.
Reply to Marti Reed post on January 11, 2016 at 8:20 pm
>> Marti said…
>>
>> Real headscratcher.
Yes, it is. I suppose it is *possible* that Jason Clawson *could* have somehow done all of the following and ended up being the one to rescue Bryan Smith and Pearl Moore ( but you tell me how *likely* ). My guess would be ‘not very’.
1. Jason Clawson left the Shrine Parking lot on his own ( and left Aaron Hulburd and KC ‘Bucky’ Yowell there to keep filming things ) and pretty much followed Tony Sciacca out of Shrine Road and down to the RHR.
2. Jason Clawson had a ‘ballcap’ in his all-aquamarine truck and he took his white helmet off and put on the ‘ballcap’.
3. At the RHR… Clawson ‘unhitched’ his trailer with his ATV on it… and ended up one of the ones dashing into Glen Ilah to try and get citizens out.
4. He rescued Bryan Smith and Pearl Moore ( in his all-aquamarine pickup sans trailer now… and sporting his neatly trimmed ‘triangular beard’ and ballcap ).
5. He only did the one rescue, hitched his trailer and ATV back up to his all-aquamarine pickup… and then was BACK up on Shrine Road at the Shrine of St. Joseph parking lot again ( with Hulburd and Yowell again ) just in time to appear in the original Hulburd ‘Helmet Cam’ video ( M2U00265 ) which captured the ‘deployment radio traffic’ starting at 4:39 PM.
( Again… my vote on all that having happened would range from ‘not very likely’ to ‘basically impossible’ )
>> Marti said…
>>
>> Even with the confusion, I think the really important part is that,
>> apparently Gary Cordes wasn’t the one involved in this
>> rescue. Hmmmmmmm.
Well… unless Bryan Smith is really, really mistaken about what VEHICLE was rescuing him ( and his cousin Peal Moore ), I guess there really isn’t any ‘apparently’ about it. The only huge mystery now would be WHY Gary Cordes would be taking credit ( in his own words, in his own ADOSH interview ) for a ‘rescue’ that he didn’t perform.
Could it be… ( WARNING: imagineering ahead )… that by the time Cordes did his ADOSH interview there was already this ‘agreement’ that someone ELSE’S presence at the fire needed to be HIDDEN?… so he was taking credit for something he knew the details about ( but didn’t actually do ) in order to help HIDE the fact that person was ever even THERE that day?
Like someone ELSE ( other than Clawson? ) from the Prescott National Forest ) who was there in ANOTHER all-aquamarine vehicle that day?
( END / IMAGINEERING )
>> Marti also said…
>>
>> Along with a number of other Hmmmmmmmmmms.
The ONLY other all-aquamarine ‘pickup’ that we know of, OTHER than Jason Clawson’s, would, in fact, be the Blue Ridge Chase truck.
Here’s an interesting photo that you’ve looked at a lot… but look again at the LEFT side of this photo…
The New York Daily News
Article Title: Wildfire in Arizona kills 19 firefighters
Published: Monday, July 1, 2013, 8:02 AM by Bill Hutchinson
http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/yeah-article-1.1386796
First photo at top of that article is that now-famous ‘twilight’ blue-tint photo taken by David Kadlubowski, Associated Press there at the RHR parking lot.
It’s the one that shows Paul Musser sitting there in his dark-blue pickup there as it was beginng to get DARK in Yarnell… but look again to the LEFT in that photo.
There is that ‘other’ all-aquamarine 2-door pickup.
It’s actually the Blue Ridge Chase truck ( pretty much exactly where it was seen in the Tom Story photographs ) still sitting there, even though the other three Blue Ridge vehicles had already evacuated back up north to the ICP.
If Bryan Smith looks at THAT all-aquamarine pickup ( 2-door, no camper back like Clawson had ) and says “That’s it!… that’s the vehicle!”… then I guess there is going to have to be another ‘head scratching’ moment figuring out how/when that Blue Ridge Chase truck got away from that RHR parking lot even though other photographic and video evidence says it never did.
Followup…
Not sure if you’ve ever actually seen this… but it’s the VIDEO equivalent of that now-famous ‘David Kadlubowski’ blue-twilight photo.
A VIDEO that was shot at about the same time, from the exact same location.
It is still sitting in the AZCENTRAL Video archive at this URL…
AZCENTRAL – VIDEO ARCHIVES
Raw: Scene from the Yarnell Hill Fire command center
Video Title: The Yarnell Hill fire has engulfed half the town and
claimed the lives of 19 hotshot firefighters from Prescott, Arizona.
http://archive.azcentral.com/video/#/Raw%3A+Scene+from+the+Yarnell+Hill+Fire+command+center/2519031306001
This is the VIDEO version of that same ‘blue-tint’ David Kadlubowski photo taken at the same exact spot this video was shot. I don’t know if Kadlubowski himself shot this video, or not, but if he didn’t then it was by someone standing right next to him when he took that ‘blue-tint’ twilight photo.
This VIDEO also shows Paul Musser sitting there in the RHR parking lot in his dark-blue 2-door pickup.
But notice on the LEFT… there is that all-aquamarine Blue Ridge ‘Chase’ truck again.
Also notice at the VERY start of the video that it was captured ‘moving’.
In the first few frames of the VIDEO we see this BR Chase Truck ‘rolling forward’ and seemingly ‘pulling in’ to that spot where it would then park just before David Kadlubowski would take his now-famous ‘blue-twilight’ photo.
The BRAKE lights are even seen coming ‘on/off’ as that Blue Ridge Chase truck ‘settled’ into that parking spot, and shining its headlights right onto Paul Musser.
This is, of course, WAY LATER than ( hours later ) than any ‘rescues’ that were performed that day… but between this video and the Kadlubowski still-photo it provides a pretty clear view of that all-aquamarine BR Chase truck… and Bryan Smith should be able to say whether there is any chance at all THAT was the all-aquamarine pickup that ‘rescued’ him and Pearl Moore.
so hard to watch Fred Brown’s home on fire here–shew.
http://archive.azcentral.com/video/#/Raw%3A+Scene+from+the+Yarnell+Hill+Fire+command+center/2519031306001
Man.
MY REPLY TO:The ONLY other all-aquamarine ‘pickup’ that we know of, OTHER than Jason Clawson’s, would, in fact, be the Blue Ridge Chase truck.—————
NOPE. I showed that photo to him. Not it.
Reply to Joy A. Collura post on January 11, 2016 at 10:12 pm
>> Joy A. Collura said…
>>
>> MY REPLY TO:The ONLY other all-aquamarine ‘pickup’
>> that we know of, OTHER than Jason Clawson’s, would,
>> in fact, be the Blue Ridge Chase truck.—————
>>
>> NOPE. I showed that photo to him. Not it.
Thank you again, Joy. We’re actually making good PROGRESS here, thanks to you and Mr. Bryan Smith.
There is ‘another’ candidate. His name is Dan Sullivan and he was in Yarnell that Sunday as an ASGS ( Air Support Group Supervisor ).
Dan Sullivan WORKED for the ‘Prescott National Forest’, just like Jason Clawson, Aaron Hulburd and KC ‘Bucky’ Yowell.
Since this ‘Dan Sullivan’ worked for ‘Prescott National Forest’, there is every chance in the world he was there in Yarnell with an ‘all-aquamarine’ forestry bluish/green vehicle the same color as Jason Clawson’s… but possibly ‘4 doors’ and ‘SUV/Suburban’ style.
See this new post above with more about this ‘Dan Sullivan’ guy…
http://www.investigativemedia.com/please-begin-yarnell-hill-fire-chapter-xviii-here/#comment-322464
Reply to Marti Reed post on January 11, 2016 at 8:20 pm
>> Marti said…
>>
>> Real headscratcher. Even with the confusion, I think the really
>> important part is that, apparently Gary Cordes wasn’t the one
>> involved in this rescue. Hmmmmmmm.
Agree… but obviously you can/should SCRATCH my replies above since Joy has now CONFIRMED ( via Bryan Smith )…
1. It was NOT Gary Cordes’ vehicle.
2. It was NOT Jason Clawson’s vehicle.
3. It was NOT the Blue Ridge ‘Chase’ pickup truck.
See the following post up above for a new suggestion as to who it MIGHT have been…
http://www.investigativemedia.com/please-begin-yarnell-hill-fire-chapter-xviii-here/#comment-322464
I am here WWTKTT—busy day.
Sorry for delay—I need a nap.
To the loved one of the GMHS who has come to Yarnell looking to meet us and spend time with us- drop a message at 480-280-5813 and as soon as I get the message I will try and call as fast as I can but heads up I do not check messages too much like others do—but eventually I do. One of my family members do not get my way of doing things and one even said they called me four times well guess what the 480# is somewhere on a cliff that has had all kinds of weather on it so I do not have it so I would not know you rang me four times and if you do not leave a message I won’t even know you ever called.
One thing is Sonny recently mentioned misinformation in regards to my family here and they read this page and you never saw a more pissed off New Yorker so he says the comment and I get the heat. Seems familiar in the aftermath of the fire…
My day outdoors began with husband going over some stuff and giving him my laundry because I like mine washed and dried in dryer not in icy cold weather via clothesline…
We learned alot today at the senior center—one that Monday and Fridays is best time to eat at the center— the lady who lost her home Roberta (Bert) Era (cook) who was not able to rebuild because in that area of Manzanita/Sesame area they required rebuilt had to be stick and her insurance would not cover it nor did the YHRG assist in the process of a rebuilt so I cannot understand that one—???? Yet Lloyd who lost his best pal after the YHF just told us TERESA yes TERESA and no not LONG ISLAND MEDIUM TERESA but our local Teresa had a serious stroke and Raul has been so strong and we told Lloyd to let them know we will shift our plans and spend time with them after lunch and the Yarnell book barn so then I went to post office and mailed off the court thing WWTKTT—
January 11, 2016 , 1:47 pm Acceptance YARNELL, AZ 85362 and headed to Prescott January 11, 2016 , 4:14 pm Departed Post Office YARNELL, AZ 85362
okay. 1/11/16 Monday 3:27pm…going down Deer Track to confirm WWTKTT ?s…”My poor gout” OW!!! I pull in and see Bruce across the street packing to move and since no answer at Bryan’s I walk over to Bruce and we talked about Nancy Knight who I met over the Holidays is his neighbor across the way. We talk about upcoming interview. At 3:40pm Bryan and Vivian Smith pull in—“I adore Vivian” a soul straight from Michigan replanted in Yarnell—I said “You got Bryan running” and she replied “somebody gotsa run- I can’t. Shew” Vivian sat down and at times foreground to Bryan and wanted to talk about her cousin Pearl Moore— I began to show Investigative Media and the videos and emails and all people/vehicles—
Bryan said “no trailer on vehicle” Definitely FOUR doors and not 2 with 2 tiny ones you crawl into—IT IS NOT GARY CORDES—The vehicle looked like Clawson’s vehicle but FOR SURE four doors and was not a camper but more like a carry all connected suburban feel to it-
The driver was tall and taller than Bryan who is six feet tall. Guy was older than guys in photo but younger than Cordes. Bryan got in front seat to drive up to get Pearl out of the road and he held her up and sat in back seat with her—him entering one door and her entering the other but sitting in back together. Bryan felt the driver had to be an engineer/captain/high up/supervisor the way it was laid out as well as the driver had alot ALOT of rolled up maps /plans. Vivian’s voice when she speaks YOU FEEL IT and sometimes it has “cheese and crackers” in it and it comes from deep within and she said if it wasnt for that fire her 85 yo cousin would be with her today because before the fire she only took vitamins and new meds for the new diagnosis of dementia but after the fire she got lung cancer—Their yard when they came back had red retardant powder throughout the yard and lawn furniture and had truck tracks on their property circling all around. The beard topic he said was like a clean trimmed santa claus full face hair beard yet at the chin area reminded him more of some zig zag character but kept shorter not pointy very cleaned up and the beard fit and formed his face like it was part of him where some people wear facial hair and it looks like a man wearing a stache or go-t…normal facial design- nothing different looking—Sonny came over to their place and needed me so I had to cut it after 35 minutes. By 4:29pm I went to Jim Nagel because Trish Edwards stated Jim has an excellent video from Saturday so when I arrive he has note outside “napping. catch you later.” so then I swing by to relay a message to Brent Yadon’s caretaker and than I stopped at Kay and Duane Zuehlke’s place who has resided there since 1986…23016 S Lakewood Dr… .22 acres. it is a 1972/add on 1979 home. It has a great defensible space in front with 2 trees and kept up and clear in back but his neighbor has huge ass trees so the neighbor’s trees are really a concern to their property because here this property is perfect with defensible space yet if their home burned it would of been due to the neighbor’s big ass trees too near to the rear of their home. I just told them I just popped in to see how they are—Kay says still has her vertigo and asthma but “okie dokie” and they explained that 6-30-13 that they did their normal day and did not know about the fire and Sheriff Jeep posse knocked on their door between 3-4pm and told them time to evacuate. It seems Lakewood folks did get a posse warning but the ones who homes were ablazed did not—I think what I am seeing is more chaos and mixed moments each one faced—
I am not a supporter to one thing RTS states and that is solely laying blame on the GMHS when I have had too many even prior GMHS that I think after MISSING ELEMENTS surface RTS will realize than and only then why I do not support his blame game solely on the men. I understand the end result but I also know none of us are seeing the WHOLE PICTURE and the whole picture is not how RTS recently summarized things…and saying they were hungover because many were not hungover nor had any alcohol and they are not followers—
QUESTION- what three men are in the flag rising photo that begins the SAIR?
page one has been proved wrong with this sentence:
“There is a gap of over 30 minutes in the information available for the Granite Mountain IHC.”
wtf?
why is that acceptable behavior from an investigation team?
On June 29 2013; at 1924- did they have retardant drops done already and how many?
In SAIR:” What kinds of signals in the fire environment make the hair on the back of your neck
stand up, and why?” I can tell you Sonny would say the smoke signals he saw that day how they turned from skunky white to an inferno hell of black smoke. AND the weather in the distance—
I don’t know of anyone who says there should be no accountability for serious screw-ups on fires, whether or not they result in injuries or deaths. If someone makes a mistake in spite of having been exposed to all of the necessary training and experience, then there should be repercussions commensurate with the act. It could be a written reprimand in a personnel file, suspension from work, removal of fire qualifications, removal from an incident management team, or termination. We need more accountability, not less and less taking awards and accolades and moving your firefighter men and hiding them around here and there because its wrong—SPEAK UP—
WantsToKnowTheTruth says
JANUARY 11, 2016 AT 1:52 AM
Thank you for following up with this, Joy.
I still think it’s important to know WHO actually rescued WHO that day, especially since some people that have already received ‘awards’ for certain things might not actually be the ones who deserve the REAL credit. ( Gary Cordes, etc. ).
MY REPLY:
You are so welcome. I also feel it is important the right person gets known for who saved who and Gary apologizes for taking credit nor ever visiting the couple he saved since the fire—that would be the final confirmation is have Gary Cordes be in same room with Vivian and Bryan Smith and state he saved him and Pearl Moore. I would pay money to see that moment.
————————
“That ‘all-aquamarine’ forestry greenish truck color is ‘reserved’ for vehicles that are assigned to US Forestry installations such as National Parks and whatnot.”
MY REPLY: Bryan was very firm it was a aquamarine four door with alot of maps/plans rolled up and baseball cap and beard and younger than Cordes and not too much older than Clawson and Yowell and would like more pics of Yowell to confirm NO. .
——————————————————————-
What do you think to this:
“As long as the accountability falls on the shoulders of the firefighters…we’re going to have some issues,” Sciacca said.
So how is it RTS is laying accountability there…without having all the pieces public yet?
——————————————————-
I also want to meet the POWER house in the City of Prescott who did some shady areas there in regards to the GMHS/fire? Maybe I already met you, huh.
————————————————————————–
For my own investigation- is Tom Tobin related to Andy Tobin who hired Tony Sciacca who Tom hired and retired Tony and HOW did he end up at the YHF? and is he still a trainer? even after the chaos and the mess of the YHF?
——————————————————————————-
I could see me and Ted Ralston hitting the streets and really TEACH locals on defensible space— He does a decent job.
—————————————————————————————–
I would love to see Rhimes write on here—he was part of the original beginning of the Granite Mountain Hotshots.
——————————————————————————
I would love some fire author to organize a part of their book with a yearbook feel with sections of
helping the general public see what IS a hotshot/firefighter/wildland firefighter/hybrids…what IS a smokejumper and the different positions and ranks within each organizations of the firefighting community so the general public can get educated like Tony said taking the heat off the firefighters as being held responsible for a homeowner’s lack of understanding and comprehension WHAT IT MEANS to do defensible space. That is the kind of pamphlets that should be at real estate offices when you buy a new home…like Stephen Pyne said the fires are changing…more homes are built in rugged areas—so why if a home is built out there is it a firefighter’s responsibility especially if your home is tucked in dense vegetation especially right against the home with a fireplace?
—————————————————————————
Willis said. “That’s what we do, is hit these fires right away.” (7/1/2012 12:01:00 AM)
Ok Willis- you sais this one year one day before your men died…tell me what happened to the YHF? Willis, have you met Nancy Knight or George Dubaskas or the many others who lost their loved one after the fire…can you tell them that you did that on YHF???
———————————————–
Robert C Jay Jr- would love to see you writing on here.
——————————————————-
I like WWTKTT…for the longest time I felt you were female. The reason I like you is my life is away from my NORM and I have been pioneering and trailing and doing zip to my NORM and so you keep me focused to the questions at hand…if I seem to ramble you have a way to swirl back to the POINTS needed— THANK YOU!
At 9:02pm I did check my voicemails-
it seems someone wants to SPEAK UP and looking at location it is 11:02pm there so be here tomorrow typing what Joe says about the YHF.
Don’t PRAY FOR…but pray with…for His will…and as I said from day one the truth will come out—
Monday January 11 2016 8:13am
son of George Dubaskas left voicemail last night and I felt inappropriate to call late so I just called.
It was an appx. 17 minute call.
17490 W Westward- mobile home and shed and in history of satellite imagery did not have defensible space around home—not that it matters because the fire should of been put out long before this point but reason it quickly burned was a lot of green/fuel around the home and how I try to educate everyone the IMPORTANCE of defensible space…so I am noting it here anyways as a home that it should of never burned yet had it been properly prepared for a fire may have not burned like such and so I hope local firefighters see that 85 y.o. folks who cannot do defensible space for themselves and are on budget should qualify a couple like that to have it done for free by you all versus you all laying and watching tv as I have seen many times at the fire dept when I come announced or unannounced and question the weight of some- those people with weight on the department should be the ones educating themselves and getting the tools to get this handled- my way of thinking versus you having a cop donut gut— get out and be productive! Help the elders and disabled-
Delores was wife of George and died since the fire and the son “Joe” stated she died of deep depression.
On Monday, Sept. 8, 2014, Dolores June Dubaskas peacefully passed away at the age of 85. After losing their home in Yarnell and all of their worldly possessions in the Yarnell fire of 2013, they relocated to Selinsgrove, where they were in embraced by the Dubaskas family.
Currently George, age 85, has very bad dementia/Alzheimer’s and now resides in a nursing home. He does not remember this fire or town at all.
I am sorry for any locals reading this that knew him and this all happened after the fire his health. I am so sorry I just wrote that because I know it will make some who knew them weep. Yet it is true. He is no longer the George we all knew—
6-30-13 and his parents’ account of the fire from the son’s mouth word by word said to me the desert walker—-
“My parents were at church that morning and when they came home they took their hearing aids out and took a nap. Their dogs jumped on the bed awakening them and George went into living room to see what the dogs were trying to tell them. George saw out the window Yetta’s home on fire(next door neighbor and now too deceased) and he remember he is elderly and just woke up & went to get his wife when he realized the back of his shirt was burning and then discovered jumping ashes from the his own on fire hallway did that- his own home was on fire. SO slow due to waking up and age he quickly gathered her purse for her and got her in truck as he went back into the home. He took so long in her mind so she gets out of truck and falls down and injures her shins very bad (mind you all she had to be nervous with being blind and hearing a hissing noise near) so George put her back in truck realizing he had to get truck away from home asap—propane tank was hissing people and as he pulled away it blew up (that propane tank was next to his truck so he was lucky on timing he backed out- could of been another casualty to the fire possibly had the tank blew a few seconds earlier) and they drove away with no one around them—no evacuation notice either. no vehicles present on street where they lived. Then they went to a hotel and their family came out from PA. They stayed there until they could come home and Joe asked the sheriff how come no one alerted his parents? The officer stated we did by intercom of the car driving through subdivision and we could not go door to door for everyone. Joe to this day wonders of the carelessness of the local fire departments early on putting this out. EARLY ON is key part here.
Sorry for your loss Joe and I know you lay a lot of blame on the fire…We will get the TRUTHS out for you…Nothing left— all gone—but the truth does remain!
Thank you Joe for sharing yours and your parents’ account of the YHF.
I am happy you were glad to speak to us- it is MORE accounts like this that need to surface to properly assess a fire versus waiting for it to be published in some book to give an author an income—-
—“Currently George, age 85, has very bad dementia/Alzheimer’s and now resides in a nursing home. He does not remember this fire or town at all.
I am sorry for any locals reading this that knew him and this all happened after the fire his health. I am so sorry I just wrote that because I know it will make some who knew them weep. Yet it is true. He is no longer the George we all knew—’—
Dorman Olsen- local realtor stated today that George started to get dementia before the fire
—-maybe Joe just did not note it being in another state???
Just found this:
“12/10/2015 4:30:00 PM
Attorney advocates for Yarnell fire victims with untested legal theory” from the Verde Independent.
http://verdenews.com/main.asp?SectionID=1&SubSectionID=1&ArticleID=68408
“PHOENIX — An attorney for Yarnell residents who were burned out in the 2013 blaze contends Arizona must compensate them for their losses because it failed to confine the lightning-caused fire to the state trust lands where it started.
In what he admits is an untested legal theory in Arizona, David Abney cited common law going back to England in the 1400s which imposed liability on property owner who lets a fire escape and injure a neighbor. He said it’s irrelevant that the state was not responsible for the blaze in the first place.
“It’s very close to a form of strict liability,’ Abney said.
The somewhat unique claim comes in new legal filings as Abney asks the state Court of Appeals to allow the homeowners to pursue their lawsuit against the state. It is part of his effort to give his clients a chance to make their claim to a jury.
He needs appellate court intervention because Maricopa County Superior Court Judge Richard Gama earlier this year threw out the case after concluding the state, in fighting the fire on public lands, had no duty to specifically protect Yarnell residents and their property. Abney is making various arguments — including the one about neighbor liability — in a bid to have the lawsuit reinstated.”
So I guess that’s the argument the attorney is making.
Further:
————————————————-
But Abney is not relying entirely on this theory.
He points out that the state did, in fact, try to fight the fire beyond the trust lands. And at that point, Abney said, the state assumed the duty to protect the homeowners — and they had a right to assume it would be done properly.
He compared it to a situation where someone passing by a pond sees a child who is drowning.
“I can just keep walking,’ he said. “I have no liability. I don’t have to rescue the child.’
Abney said all that changes if the person does jump in.
“But if I see a child drowning in a pond and I leap to the child’s aid and try to rescue the child and drown the child because I do it in a negligent way, the I am liable,’ he explained.
The same is true here. He said once the firefighting efforts expanded beyond state lands, those fighting the fire had a responsibility to do it in a responsible fashion.
And Abney said if he is allowed to take the case to trial, the evidence will back him up.
“The Yarnell Hill fire was just a comic opera that ended in complete tragedy, not only for the people of Yarnell but the 19 firefighters that got cut off (from an escape route) and killed because of the state’s utter incompetence,’ he said.
The attorney said “…. but the 19 firefighters that got cut off (from an escape route) and killed because of the state’s utter incompetence.’
He’s obviously NOT been reading these IM posts.
WRONG!
It was the GMHS’s ‘utter incompetence’ leaving a perfectly good Safety Zone, without a required Lookout or notifying AA of their intentions to do so, and traveling through the thick unburned brush into chutes and chimneys and ultimately into a brush choked bowl, fecklessly attempting to cut a Deployment one instead of RUNNING to the BSR, at the worst possible time with aggressive winds and fire behavior!
The AZ State Forestry was utterly incompetent in many ways that day, however, they were NOT responsible for the GMHS utter incompetence – the GMHS were big boys, and they did that all on their own.
I have to respectfully disagree there Robert the Second. The fellow that worked for the state that did not take the lightening strike seriously but told the Yarnell fire department to do as you wish ought to be canned. He should have been screaming to get that fire out under the extreme fire danger conditions. Yarnell should have taken to the hills immediately as well. That indeed was incompetence and the factor that ended up killing 19 men.
Sonny,
You posted: “The fellow that worked for the state that did not take the lightening strike seriously but told the Yarnell fire department to do as you wish ought to be canned.”
No issues whatsoever here. I agree totally on this point.
You also posted: “That indeed was incompetence and the factor that ended up killing 19 men.”
This is where we disagree. But not sure what you are referring to with the word “THAT.” If you’re re3ferring to incompetence, are you referring to (1) the YH Fire mismanagement or (2) the failure to evacuate the town of Yarnell? It really doesn’t matter.
The point I made was that EACH WF RESOUIRCE IS RESPONSIBLE FOR THEIR OWN SAFETY AND WELFARE. The individual WFF Resources are solely and independently responsible for their own safety and welfare, no matter what the IMT’s did or did not do or whether some WF Overhead asked and/or ordered and/or whatever the GMHS to perform some assignment.
They could have and should have followed The WFF Rules and/or declined the assignment and stayed put in their perfectly good Safety Zone.
If you still disagree then we’ll have to respectfully agree to disagree.
That is a fine way to say it Robert 2nd. Looks like you will go a long way and good work toward your fire fighting efforts.
Indeed there was much incompetence here starting from the very beginning. Doesn’t take a genius to see that this fire should have been attended to on the very first hour it began. Much incompetence there but much more down the line.
“The point I made was that EACH WF RESOUIRCE IS RESPONSIBLE FOR THEIR OWN SAFETY AND WELFARE. The individual WFF Resources are solely and independently responsible for their own safety and welfare, no matter what the IMT’s did or did not do or whether some WF Overhead asked and/or ordered and/or whatever the GMHS to perform some assignment.”
Well stated…I would describe this as the fire manager’s ‘wet dream.’ No matter what, overhead is not responsible for the safety and welfare of those below them. All these years I thought the higher I climbed the ladder, the more I get paid and the more responsibility I have. It’s actually more pay and less responsibility. Sweet!
Do you believe that there is not one single ‘atomic molecule’ of responsibility for the deaths of GM on anyone other than the leadership of GM that day? I don’t know the answer so I’m still looking. Can you answer this with 100% certainty?
How about this: Were these individuals “solely and independently responsible for their own safety and welfare?”
•Shawn Blazer
•Scott Charlson
•Edrik Gomez
•Matt Hammer
•Steven Caleb Renno
•Bryan Rich
•David Steele
Does this fit your premise? Should they have known of fuel system issues?
Either I am totally mistaken or I have been trained by a completely different set of Fire Gods.
Thank you.
Woodsman
Woodsman,
YES, I do believe that there is not one single ‘atomic molecule’ of responsibility for the deaths of GM on anyone other than the leadership of GM that day. ABSOLUTELY!
You are a qualified WF supervisor from what I gather, so are YOU PERSONALLY AND/OR PROFESSIONALLY responsible for the ultimate safety and welfare of EACH AND EVERY WFF you supervise OR is their own supervisor(s), e;g. Crew Boss and/or Squad Bosses, responsible for them?
The DIVS Task Book (link below), under the ‘Competency’ heading, states that a DIVS is to “LEAD assigned personnel … and INFLUENCE, GUIDE, and DIRECT assigned personnel to accomplish objectives and desired outcomes in a rapidly changing, high-risk environment.”
Under the section listed as: ‘Behavior – ENSURE the SAFETY, WELFARE, AND ACCOUNTABILITY OF ASSIGNED PERSONNEL, it states that a DIVS is to “9. ENSURE ASSIGNED RESOURCES ARE FOLLOWING SAFETY GUIDELINES APPROPRIATELY.”
Webster’s Dictionary defines ENSURE as “to make sure, certain, or safe : guarantee.”
So, according to the DIVS Task Book, and Webster’s Dictionary definition of ‘ensure,’ it appears that you are correct and therefore, as a DIVS, YOU are responsible for their safety and welfare.
Under the “Behavior: Gather, analyze, and validate information pertinent to the incident or event and make recommendations for setting priorities” section, a DIVS is to:
“27. Identify kind, type, and number of resources required to achieve control objectives.
• CONSIDER weather, fuels, terrain, fire behavior, kinds and types of resources, resource availability, and SAFETY FACTORS.”
The above quotes are cited from the NWCG Division/Group Supervisor (DIVS) Task Book PMS 311-09 and all EMPHASIS IS ADDED.
However, considering the wildland fire Span of Control principle of 5:1, a supervisor is responsible for 3 to 7 employees with the ‘RULE OF THUMB being 5 subordinates.
How can YOU OR ANY OTHER SUPERVISOR be responsible for those beyond that number. That is a Crew Leader responsibility and NOT the DIVS.
I see where you’re going here, I think?
You make a very valid point using the Iron Complex fatalities as an example here. Given that, I’ll have to clarify that EACH WF RESOURCE IS RESPONSIBLE FOR THEIR OWN SAFETY AND WELFARE while on the firelines.
The aircraft issue is quite a bit different and so, there are any number of individuals responsible in that case, e.g. pilots, helitack and helibase personnel, and many others, The same goes for any travel, and those are covered in the Single Resource Boss Task Book. As I told you earlier, neither the DIVS or myself as the SOF2 that Iron 44 day, could stop the tragic, what-would-become-fatal helicopter operation after several hours on the Command frequency with the Branch Director attempting to STOP the operation.
The SINGLE RESOURCE BOSS (Crew Boss, Engine Boss, Heavy Equipment Boss, Felling Boss, and Firing Boss) TASK BOOK PMS 311-13 covers even more safety rules and ‘guidelines.’
I have a real problem with most anything SAFETY being listed as a ‘GUIDELINE’ except for the contentious safety helmet issue while riding a side-by-side UTV. I’m all for them on ATV’s but take issue with them for UTV operations (another issue).
The basic Type 2 WFF in the FFT2 Task Book is responsible for his safety as well as others. “21. LOOK OUT FOR THE SAFETY AND WELFARE OF SELF and other crew members and IMMEDIATELY REPORT ANY THREAT TO THEIR SAFETY & …. IDENTIFY SITUATIONS WHICH WARRANT IMMEDIATE ACTION AND/OR REPORTING, BASED ON THE STANDARD FIRE ORDERS AND WATCH OUT SITUATIONS, AND URBAN INTERFACE WATCH OUT SITUATIONS. …”
According to this Task Book, the Type 2 has a lot of responsibility for being a Rookie and that involves ‘Leading Up’ to the supervisor level any hazards based on The WFF Rules.
I don’t know what else you’re seeking here. I do NOT micromanage when I supervise. It’s Leader’s Intent and go to work after any questions and/or clarifications. I leave it to them to safely and effectively accomplish their duties, which primarily includes their Number One responsibility – ensuring the safety and welfare of those they supervise.
And the GMHS leadership should have declined the unsafe order to leave the black when they did. The GMHS is responsible for their Bad Decisions that day, primarily the GMHS leadership, with some culpability with the GMHS Crewmembers themselves to not speak up and/or force the issue.
By analogy, if you get in an accident and cause fatalities, while driving your car RECKLESSLY, who is responsible for those deaths? The car manufacturer? The state agent that issued your your license to drive? You insurance company? The salesman that sold you the car? You passenger(s)? The other driver(s)? Or you?
RTS:
I agree with a lot of what you just said…mostly the task book/position quotes.
What I’m talking about is trust. You said ‘solely and independently responsible’ and I used the Iron 44 fire to illustrate that sometimes a wff has to trust (or is inclined as part of the job) those around him that they know what they are doing. Aircraft or travel doesn’t get you out of it. When ground support hands me the keys to the rental, I trust it’s been inspected and operates correctly. Nothing would get accomplished at all if we all have to stop the operation a verify for ourselves that everybody is doing their job correctly at all times. I understand GM screwed up……..but I want to see the entire body of evidence before making a determination like you have.
How about coercion? What if someone is asked repeatedly to do something and they say no….
Thanks for answering the question – that you are 100% certain that no one shares any responsibility for the deaths of GM but GM. I find that fascinating given the extensive coverup & redactions etc. That’s sticking to your guns!
I’ll just say that I personally need more evidence to arrive at your level of certainty in this regard.
Woodsman
Thanks for answering the question – that you are 100% certain that no one shares any responsibility for the deaths of GM but GM. I find that fascinating given the extensive coverup & redactions etc. That’s sticking to your guns!
I’ll just say that I personally need more evidence to arrive at your level of certainty in this regard.
Woodsman
MY REPLY:
thank you Woodsman
Joy,
You’re welcome. Sorry about the run-on sentence comment. It was meant as light hearted teasing. I appreciate all of your posts.
Woodsman
I like forward open ways versus bullshitters and no tease… Its how you perceived me for the moment or still do…its all good.
Woodsman,
Don’t know what else to say other than I can confidently say that I have likely been sent home from more fires for refusing unsafe assignments than you have even been on.
Neither myself, nor anyone I supervised AND trained has ever been in a fire shelter or UNEXPECTEDLY burned over. And I base that on God’s will and because they adhered to the WFF Rules.
I trained some of the GMHS, mainly Steed, and so he should have known better. The YH Fire fatalities defy logic. It was purely based on Human Factors.
I trained some of the GMHS, mainly Steed, and so he should have known better. The YH Fire fatalities defy logic. It was purely based on Human Factors.
MY REPLY: oh I wish Dr Ted Putnam would chime in here…where you at Ted? THIS fire is not just based on human factors— ohhhhh noooo….2015 Wildland Convention firefighters we spoke to PLEASE chime in here too….no, not purely based…nope. MISSING ELEMENTS please SPEAK UP!
RTS:
“Don’t know what else to say other than I can confidently say that I have likely been sent home from more fires for refusing unsafe assignments than you have even been on. ”
Is this the moment where we each whip em’ out, flop em’ on the table and measure em’? Yes, you have more experience than me. Don’t stoop to that to shut down the conversation. You’re better than that.
“The YH Fire fatalities defy logic.”
This is why I believe it to be worthwhile to look at all the evidence and deep down, maybe you do too?
We are on a merry-go-round here. You say no one was responsible for GM deaths but the leadership of GM. I say prove it. You say no. I say get those who know to talk. You say not my job – up to them. I say then we don’t have all the evidence. You say no one was responsible for GM deaths but the leadership of GM………..
Around we go.
Woodsman
Woodsman,
No flopping ’em down needed, just trying to make a point about the coercion of some WFF overhead. So the f**k what! Let them coerce. You have the option to accept it or not or give them an option. NO ONE FORCES or makes you do anything.
You posted: “You say no one was responsible for GM deaths but the leadership of GM. I say prove it.”
It’s already PROVEN, don’t you get it? They are DEAD because of their Bad Decisions that day. Yes, it’s really that simple.
The GMHS are dead BY THEIR OWN HAND(S)! NO ONE put a gun to their head(s) and NO ONE forced them to leave their Safety Zone.
WTF is that so hard for you and others to understand?
RTS:
I forgot to answer this:
“You are a qualified WF supervisor from what I gather, so are YOU PERSONALLY AND/OR PROFESSIONALLY responsible for the ultimate safety and welfare of EACH AND EVERY WFF you supervise OR is their own supervisor(s), e;g. Crew Boss and/or Squad Bosses, responsible for them? ”
Yes. With every fiber of my being I will strive to ensure their safety within my capability to do so. I cannot determine an outcome beyond my control. I am responsible for those I supervise and they are responsible for those they supervise.
Which leads to questions a lot of us here have – who did what? Who didn’t do what? Why? etc.
The numerous qualifiers in your question are fun – love those. I do that too.
Woodsman
Woodsman,
You posted: “Which leads to questions a lot of us here have – who did what? Who didn’t do what? Why? etc.”
Regarding the Basic WFF Rules, I believe there were LOTS of WFF Supervisors, including plenty on the IMT, that gave direction to and/or requested that Supervisors and/or Resources accomplish certain missions or tasks, knowing that those orders conflicted with The Basic WFF Rules. So then, the onus would be on the one ‘Accepting the Risk’ after taking the assignment stating they would do it or not.
So then, the higher level Supervisor can just put their hands up and say “They know ‘The WFF Rules’ and they knew the risks involved with accepting the assignment and accepted it anyway, so the ball is in their court now. It is out of my hands.”
Why? It’s a common ploy by some WFF Supervisors to do this. They have done it before and gotten Resources to take the assignments and gotten away with it (both Resources and the WFF Supervisors) so what’s the big deal.
And the Resources why? The GMHS had a recurring habit of getting away with risky assignments and had normalized deviance to the point of ‘it’s just another day’ and NOT complying with The Basic WFF Rules of LCES, when they left their perfectly good Safety Zone without a Lookout or notifying AA of their intentions, etc., etc., etc. until their Crew Supervisors killed themselves and their Crew, thus abdicating their primary supervisory responsibilities of Crew safety and welfare.
They had gotten away with it so many times, so why would the outcome be any different this time.
RTS said:
The attorney said “…. but the 19 firefighters that got cut off (from an escape route) and killed because of the state’s utter incompetence.’
He’s obviously NOT been reading these IM posts.
WRONG!”
And I totally agree. To the extent that I almost self-censored myself on quoting that statement. And then decided what the hay.
I really hope this case continues to go forward. For two reasons.
1) Given what Joy has written above about that gut-wrenching escape from this fire by two elders who have died after this fire. To at least some serious extent, as a result of this fire and what I believe was a seriously botched evacuation. That being said, I don’t know who was responsible for “botching” that evacuation. I lean towards Yavapai County Sheriff’s Department. But I really believe Yarnell and Glen Ilah should have been evacuated that morning, just as Peeples Valley was. I’m not sure whose responsibility that was, all things considered.
Yarnell Hill Fire: Evacuation timeline:
http://www.azcentral.com/news/arizona/articles/20131116yarnell-hill-fire-evacuation-timeline.html
2) I think we have a serious “Houston We have a Problem” moment here. And I think this lawsuit could force the necessary conversation of who, exactly, is responsible for what, exactly, when a wildland fire is threatening homes and private property.
Land management agencies, like Az Dept of Forestry, have been, de facto, taking on that responsibility. I mean, really, just about everything they did during the Yarnell Fire was about that. You just can’t avoid that. They weren’t fighting that fire to protect State lands. It escaped State land and was burning private land, and threatening private property. Darrell Willis and his crew spent mucho dineros and plenty of time doing, in vain, “structure protection” of a private “ranch” which, predictably, burned, mostly, to the ground.
And AZDF is saying “We’re not responsible for doing that.” Really?????
On the other hand, there’s a huge extent to that I agree totally with that. It really isn’t their “scope of responsibility” to do that. And I believe it’s high time for the public to begin to understand that.This whole equation, and the thinking related to it, is what is getting wildland fire-fighters burned, maimed, and killed on the Wildland Urban Interface, including the Granite Mountain Hotshots. And also including what happened this summer on the Twisp River Fire and the Valley Fire.
I really hope this case goes further because I think it’s high time to deliberate on what, really, is the responsibility of the various Who’s when it comes to wildfires in/approaching the private property in the Wildland Urban Interface.
Namaste.
Marti,
I agree with you that this needs to go to go forward and go to trial.
Here’s a 2003 California Division of Forestry (CDF) report that compares our wildland fire laws to other countries, including Australia’s “Stay and Defend” practices, titled: “Wildland Fire Evacuation in the U.S.: The Color vs. the Letter of the Law.”
http://www.fire.uni-freiburg.de/summit-2003/3-IWFC/Papers/3-IWFC-060-Hubbard.pdf
It states that “EVACUATION IS A COLLABORATIVE UNDERTAKING AMONG FIRE AUTHORITIES, LAW ENFORCEMENT AND EMERGENCY SERVICE MANAGERS.” (EMPHASIS ADDED)
“The decision to evacuate is determined as much by the concern for the safety of firefighters as well as the safety of residents. … The decision to declare an evacuation generally rests with the fire protection agency. … In reality, the decision is collaborative with law enforcement, …”
“In some cases, law enforcement MAY decide on its own initiative to implement an evacuation, independent of the fire control agency. This can be complicated ….”
“Once the fire authority requests an evacuation, LOCAL LAW ENFORCEMENT IS IN CHARGE OF IMPLEMENTATION. This is typically the county sheriffs office, Highway patrol, state police and other peace officers.”
Wildland firefighting in the WUI is extremely dangerous and carries its own Watch Out Situations, and this definitely needs to be focused on and visited as a key part of any yearly refreshers and/or WFF training. Firefighters seem to take too many unnecessary risks in the WUI.
I will post a link to the ‘159 page document titled: Wildland Fire Protection and Response in the United States – The Responsibilities, Authorities, and Roles of
Federal, State, Local, and Tribal Government’ posted elsewhere on IM in a former chapter.
“Wildland Fire Protection and Response in the United States – The Responsibilities, Authorities, and Roles of Federal, State, Local, and Tribal Government”
https://www.iafc.org/files/wild_MissionsProject.pdf
159 pages. The “Arizona State Forestry Wildland Fire Protection” chapter begins on page 49 (scrolling page 49 and/or page 6 in the AZ Appendix)
The old ‘English Common Law” thing is going to be a long shot… because it actually works both ways ( at least to used to… in ‘English Common Law’ ).
It actually establishes that if ANYONE fails to contain a fire that starts on their own land… then they are responsible for ‘damages’ when it spreads to other people’s lands.
If the judge just rules that the case should go forward on this one ‘legal point’ alone… then he has opened the doors for all kinds of lawsuits with neighbors suing neighbors even if a lightning strike on one person’s property spreads to someone else’s property.
NOTE: Proven arson is always a different story altogether, legally speaking. The concept at play here is for ANY fire spreading from one property to another, and the owner of the origin land being ‘liable’ for damages.
>> From the article…
>>
>> Once the firefighting efforts expanded beyond state lands, those fighting
>> the fire had a responsibility to do it in a responsible fashion.
This is still the best shot, legally speaking.
No English Common Law needed. It’s the EXISTING legal concept of “Assumption of Responsibility”.
>> Also from the article…
>>
>> And Abney said if he is allowed to take the case to trial, the evidence
>> will back him up.
It certainly will.
And that’s still all this about ( just the ability to even HAVE a trial at all ).
It’s about whether a case DESERVES to be ‘fully heard’ and win or lose… let a JURY decide the outcome.
The State of Arizona can argue all day long that their employees NEVER had any ‘responsibility’ to even be trying to protect Peeples Valley, Yarnell or Glen Ilah.
Their employees didn’t KNOW that at the time… and they “assumed the responsibility”.
I still think these ‘damages’ cases have two distinct ‘parts’.
One is related to the firefighting efforts ( from initial lightning strike onward ).
The other is simply related to the ‘evacuation notices’… and wether there were ‘losses’ there that could have been easily prevented if the people in harm’s way had simply had more TIME to do proper evacuations.
Even Mr. Russ Reason ( Rest In Peace ) was only able to save ONE of his vehicles because he simply didn’t even have TIME to go back in and drive the other one out.
There were/are a LOT of ‘losses’ that fall into that category.
If people had simply had more TIME… they could have saved more ‘things’.
In many cases… irreplaceable things.
I still say… just let it go to court. These people DESERVE that, at least.
We hope common law and common sense prevail in this case. The State had a fire started on State lands under the worst possible fire conditions with extreme fire alerts posted at both ends of Yarnell and according to reports we had, the State had set that 320 acres aside as restricted two weeks before the lightining strike precisely because of those conditions. Yet we are told that when the Yarnell fire department asked if they ought to put it out the reply was to do as they wished. The Yarnell fire department was fully aware of conditions, knew or should have known how quickly manzanita can burn and considering the proximity of that lightning strike they should have been rushing to it before it had chance to spread. Local ranchers with retardant could have dropped that evening, yet no one bothered to lift a finger.
I can tell you as Joy and I were camped some ten miles out in the desert where sparse vegetation and a camp fire for cooking smoked a bit, I had firemen on the spot in short time. They were ready to hand out tickets if it were possible, yet the same fire people could not bother to go three miles up that hill on a two track where ATV could have taken them in less than 20 minutes. Well we are of the mind that there were two Yellow and White ATVs there on Friday night. The lady, Cindy, who has now deceased had those photos and said she also saw lights up there on Friday night. Nothing has been said or proven since about that–so I am to assume if they were there they did not bother to contain the fire–and if not why not. Maybe if we can find these people they can get and award too.
By the way, I did hike up the mountain today. The walker the nice people from the VA provided was not used. It was wet and overcast today but I would not have missed it for the world. My daughter was along and Joy–quite pleasant hiking with those two young ladies. You can still get a nice view of the Death Bowl and the flag was waving full mast. My camera was dead on the battery but Joy got some cell phone shots. I am not yet in shape for a longer full hike and one sees how six stents and lethargic living can slow you down. The girls actually kept ahead of me and did stop at times for me to catch up.
We love and respect those fellows that gave their life in this tragedy. I am sorry that Marsh and Steed are taking the blame–facts are facts. But you know I really look at this situation from day one and see that they should have never been here to begin with. I also can not believe that Marsh alone made the decision to go down into the Death Bowl. Someone coaxed him and he passed it down. Those that took any kind of awards for a good job or saving someone deserve to be investigated to the fullest. There are too many lies and cover ups in this, one of the Worlds Worst Firefighting Jobs ever if not the worst.
Just add up the lives lost, homes and irreplaceable heirlooms, and displaced people not to mention millions in tax payer dollars and you want to give someone awards–when in all honesty it was a screw up from day one.
Your daughter and I can confirm you went on small walk to a mound but you were not on any mountain but you were on the doctor’s property that has minimal view to area at way distance much like the view from 89 ranch restaurant and note also Sonny did it but has to walk flat for a bit and no incline because he has been laying flat since and he is not at all ready for any mountain hikes on the Weavers… Keep it real Sonny…kudos to getting out but you were not on the deep steep trails we took all on but a tiny mound on the doctor’s property… Big difference there..the other requires huff and puff steep spots and the mound not so much…going to real estate office to take photo of an aerial to match up to weather channel aerial pic later today
Woodsman says
JANUARY 8, 2016 AT 4:01 PM
I tried but I can’t stay away…
WTKTT: I was wrong when I said you need to work on your technique. Keep doing the excellent work you are doing such as this above. Thank you!
And I said, “I think everyone here is irreplaceable,” But the truth is, WTKTT is the most irreplaceable whether you agree with him or like to take shots at him. And those who used to call me “The Jackhammer” never tried to follow WTKTT’s relentless (and at times robotic) posts because he truly is “The Jackhammer!”
This thread will dry up and blow away the day WTKTT stops posting. Love him or hate him.. As I said two years ago, I have never met anybody who has a mind more like a spread sheet than he (we established that much a couple of months ago) does..
I spent a long while writing and Sonny got hungry and I walked away from pc and he got on and opened a new page and I got back on and went to copy paste the fire link to put on here and when I got here it was blank and I thought cool I saved it before Sonny got it so I am okay EXCEPT I just copied that link so lost it all—
First off the reason real quick I want the IN WRITING expiration date on my order was because it is nowhere online showing expired and for the past year I have had to look around a room and even at times I was FIRST there and my order said if FIRST than Marsh had to leave not me but I did not have her do that at all and I left quietly unannounced each time except one time I was trapped in my town not hers in the Congress Country store as her and a man entered and I went into deep freezer to avoid her seeing me and they alerted me when she left with this man. She used bathroom. I just lost my pops and I have that grief to concern to so it would be nice to get official note that it is expired so I can leave it in history. I think at the time Marsh felt a fear emotion and I hope since she has soothed her views.
I wish my original comment did not vanish because I took alot of time writing it
As Sonny speaks about the science of retardant..
I would like to touch base about the science of miracles-
WWTKTT asked some additional questions along with Calvin to Glen Ilah resident Bryan Smith and so I called and did not get and answer but I did not just stop there. I sat down and began to write. When Bryan got the letter he called me today 1-9-16 8:48am and spent over a half hour answering the questions.
First off Sonny has family due here so when call came in I almost did not take it because I am organizing Sonny’s spot so when I did I asked if we can at a later time speak more in person because I want his words “dropbox” for others to listen to assess his words versus me carrying the dialogue third party. He said yes.
The forestry truck aquamarine he said it was not a square box but he kept stating “carry all- extended cab Suburban/van like feel to it but not a normal truck if considered one. He is not familiar with firefighter trucks so I am going to ask you WWTKTT to email me some photos of the men and vehicles used that day to show him in person.
The door he was to enter was locked and had to make room for him to enter. He said the driver is not Gary Cordes for the thinner younger man than Cordes had a kept up trimmed beard and I do not know who the zig zag man is but he said like zig zag man but no so pointy. Bryan left Pearl at her spot and went down the street and tried to flag this vehicle and driver down as he here’s propane tanks hissing and tires blowing and pop pop pop noises of bushes burning and he had an industrial accident so walking is not easy for him nor for Pearl who had cancer and he had only a 50ft clearance of view due to thick smoke and embers dropping. It was a high emotional moment as he was watching (THESE PEOPLE LIVE NEXT TO HELMS—)Howard and Jerry’s home ON FIRE and Bruce’s home ON FIRE and next door neighbor Larry and Patty McCracken’s garden shed ON FIRE and Russ Reason’s home was engulfed in flames. The driver pulled up and said “get in” as he unlocked vehicle and moved stuff to make room for Bryan and Bryan said he had to go get Pearl still..
Howard still stops by his unbuilt home but his wife will never enter Yarnell or their property again. Traumatized.
We spoke on topic of how fire hydrants were done/tested in January 2013 and the lack of using them during the fire???
Important quiet detail he stated- when they were in ambulance he heard crews talk to ambulance state “19 more coming” and those words lay way heavy spiritually for him and he is not one to do a media article but Patti McCracken told reporter Anne Ryman she was out of the town but her neighbor may share— he was here on 6-30-13; Bryan Smith. So photographer and reporter came out and wrote the article but he is a private stays to himself and his church kind of guy and does not engage in this kind of stuff but he feels it is time to start sharing and giving back for he has grand kids the ages of the 19 so for that he is YES to further interviews and questions on the YHF and he would like to forget it and the Weavers looks better but unsure he will ever forget.
Than I asked about helmet of driver and he said it was more like a baseball cap—no hard hat/helmet.
Now about recent talks on Willis- and God had the plan–
The very words that got me to be less of ME and more of Him because I was offended by his comment as you hear at 2:28/3:13 here and wanted to comprehend the meaning of Willis comment: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JA0njuVjD2c
I like Willis. A man of God. A man with clout and has a street named after him in Prescott. A man well respected. A man who has had to be there for the loved ones as well as the firefighter community. I know he stated hearsay things in my case and I know he stated after hearing to set it aside and there will be no reason for me to dislike Willis. I know some of his loved ones and friends and what they think of him and the only thing I thought was odd from his family/his support unit was one said call all the media on my case and ask for all references you can…go to the memorial meeting anyways…Number one odd thing said from Willis loved one was KARMA is already affected the private lives and they have no clue how the 19 are protecting the hikers and watching over us and all things will fall into place eventually and that was said couple months after hearing…
I like his wife and she has such a loving spirit about her and a real woman.
I cannot rewrite all I did but maybe soon…it was alot on 2015 and the past month…but ran out of time for now…
Thanks Joy for posting this. A few excerpts I keyed in on are listed below.
Tex says: “What I saw was a group of men that were totally spent, they looked like they were tired; they weren’t somebody you would want to fight a fire, I could tell you that, they needed rest, …. I just saw a situation that seemed to me kinda strange, to see men that depleted going up there. I thought ….”
Spent, not from working, but more likely spent from being hung over.
“Why would you go that way and not the burnt, the black, or the Congress side, because that is a long Joy says: way after being spent, and we saw them in the morning and they were spent and they were here all day in the sun and the smoke and everything and the heat. Why would you all the way over to the dense Manzanita …”
It is likely they went the way they did because of dulled senses and impaired judgement due to their hangovers. And also likely because of an unbroken chain of progressive, Bad Decisions With Prior Good Outcomes, getting away with incrementally more risky behaviors again and again and again.
A Steady Drift Into Failure,
Thanks for this Joy.
Off the top of my head, I don’t remember seeing any fire-fighter-related trucks that looked like the one you are describing.
Is he sure that was a fire-fighter?
Marti… see my ‘Reply’ to Joy above as a new parent comment…
http://www.investigativemedia.com/please-begin-yarnell-hill-fire-chapter-xviii-here/#comment-322326
It has a new VIDEO / SLIDESHOW in it showing vehicles ( and faces ).
Other than the Blue Ridge vehicles ( which never left the RHR parking lot in this ‘rescue’ timeframe )… there WAS at least ONE other ‘all-aquamarine’ pickup truck there that day.
Jason Clawson… from the Prescott National Forest.
And as the new VIDEO shows… he DID have a neatly trimmed’ triangular’ beard that day.
Placing him anywhere near Bryan Smith and Pearl Moore would be problematic, as far as the existing evidence records goes… but there are some eerie similarities going on here with Bryan Smith’s description(s).
Reply to Joy A. Collura post on January 4, 2016 at 1:00 pm
>> Joy A. Collura said…
>>
>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t_AjhL448ZA&index=14&list=LL7Ddlp39FV7S07qbKPCL2xg
>> he also left late,,,he would be one to ask more details.
Thank you for a reminder about this particular video, Joy.
Yes… this is that now-famous video of that fellow self-evacuating in his car from the extreme western edge of Glen Ilah, at 4:48 PM, with it totally black-as-night, embers falling from the sky, and houses burning all around him as he exits to the EAST and out to Highway 89.
YouTube Video Name: Yarnell Fire
Published on Jul 19, 2013 by Youtube User: fathomsuperfly
YouTube Comment: This is my escape from Glen Ilah, neighborhood that got the worst of the fire.
His trip out of Glen Ilah ( as seen in the video ) started at this address…
Street Address: 22905 Ridgeway Drive
Decimal Latitude, Longitude: 34.217598, -112.764267
Yavapa County Tax Assesor Parcel Number: 203-04-004
Registered Owner: Welborn Ricky L & Roberta J RS
He went north on Ridgeway, took a RIGHT turn and headed EAST on Westward way, and then eventually turned onto Lakewood Drive and exited Glen Ilah via Fountainhill Road. The video then shows him heading NORTH on Highway 89 and he eventually stopped at that Texaco Station in Yarnell where he shot those final video clips of the helicopters.
The vehicle he is following out is a large vehicle with a ‘square’ back, but it does NOT appear to be a fire engine or an emergency vehicle. It could be one of his neighbors driving an RV out ahead of him.
At +1:12 in the video, the dashboard clock in the vehicle he is driving comes into view in the lower right corner of the video frame.
It appears to indicate that the time at that moment is 4:48 PM, even though it was COMPLETELY DARK where he was at that point, heading north on Ridgeway Drive in Glen Ilah, with glowing embers falling all around him.
At +1:48 and again at +1:57, his video camera captures his own driver’s side external mirror and we can see that at least 1 other vehicle is FOLLOWING him out.
At +2:05, just as he reaches the intersection of Lakewood Drive and Manzanita Drive, we see at least TWO sets of vehicle headlights farther west on Manzanita Drive and coming OUT towards the camera. It is too far away to tell what kind of of vehicle(s) they might be, but this COULD be the vehicle(s) coming out that rescued Bob and Ruth Hart right around this same time out there on Manzanita Drive.
At +2:17, on the left side of the video, we get another glimpse of the same TWO sets of vehicles headlights seen 15 seconds ago coming OUT of Manzanita Drive. All we can see are headlights but there are at least 2 other vehicles ‘coming out’ at that point. Perhaps even THREE vehicles.
As he is driving NORTH on Highway 89, in that ‘curve’ between Glen Ilah and the south edge of Yarnell proper, and shooting scenes of the fire off to the west… FOUR vehicles pass by his camera heading SOUTH on Highway 89.
All FOUR of these vehicles would then show up still traveling south on Highway 89 ( and in the same sequential order ), behind Mr. Russ Reason as he was standing there giving his on-camera interview circa 4:55 PM at the northwest corner of the parking lot of the Ranch House Restaurant.
Here are those FOUR vehicles ( in the order they appear passing his camera and heading SOUTH on Hwy 89 )…
Dark Grey Mini-van
Passes the escaping man’s video camera at +2:27 into his video, heading south on Hwy 89.
Passes behind Russ Reason during his video interview at +43 seconds.
Black 2-door pickup truck
Passes the escaping man’s video camera at +2:28 into his video, heading south on Hwy 89.
Passes behind Russ Reason during his video interview at +48 seconds.
Maroon SUV with spare tire mounted on rear hatchback
Passes the escaping man’s video camera at +2:30 into his video, heading south on Hwy 89.
Passes behind Russ Reason during his video interview at +51 seconds.
White 4-door pickup with no markings or logos. Silver toolbox at the top of the open bed.
Driver appears to be wearing a Yellow Nomex shirt and talking on a cellphone or a radio.
Passes the escaping man’s video camera at +2:32 into his video, heading south on Hwy 89.
Passes behind Russ Reason during his video interview at +55 seconds.
This white pickup *may* have its left blinker on when it passes behind Russ Reason and
it *may* have turned into the parking lot of the Ranch House Restaurant.
The man who was ‘escaping’ in the video passed all FOUR of these vehicles that would then appear behind Russ Reason moments later as he was heading north on Highway 89 in that ‘curve’ between the Ranch House Restaurant and the south edge of Yarnell, and just before he reached that green-and-white roadsign on the west side of Highway 89 and facing the southbound traffic that says…
———————————————
Congress / Jct SR 71 – 10 miles
Wickenburg – 25 miles
———————————————
That roadsign is exactly here…
34.217808, -112.750308
In other words… all FOUR of these vehicles passed the escaping man’s video camera heading south when they were all only 783 yards ( 2,349 feet ) from where Russ Reason was standing giving his on-camera video at the Ranch House Restaurant.
SUMMARY
There is no exact ‘visual’ evidence of Gary Cordes ( or anyone else ) performing any ‘rescues’ back there in Glen Ilah in this particular ‘escape’ video… but we DO see some ‘headlights’ coming down Manazanita Drive that *might* be whoever it was that was rescuing Bob and Ruth Hart that afternoon. The same 4 vehicles seen passing this man’s camera just 783 yards from where Russ Reason was conducting his on-camera interview also just verifies the TIME we have been assuming for that Russ Reason interview. It really did take place in the 4:50 PM to 4:55 PM timeframe.
I will get confirmation and explain its better to hear it direct from him on sound recorder vs me just repeating it as well. He described Jason truck but Yowell’s beard. I am about to call Joe. Getting prepared than let you know.
I am so sorry I never go on the pc to report yesterday- but everything I say now took place between 3:30-3:55pm 1-6-16 when I was trying to find the Walmart Scooter Tex was riding- he was there one second and vanished and those darn things are SLOW—BUT glad in a way that happened because in search of him down every aisle quickly I first bumped into Cliff DuPuy and his wife the man who stated that the Yarnell dispatcher wanted to run back and get her notes and get rid of them—he the man who knows a lot about the initial attack because he was a dispatcher and he was PRESENT for the start—he who has conflicting stories of Peeples Valley headquarters yet Cliff was present with Yarnell chief at the time Jim Koile (wonder if he was the man in grey rim glasses) but this could be part of the chaos because the one we are about to interview with a few other men who were at Peeples Valley headquarters have not matched Yarnell headquarters from day one and this is not hearsay but first hand eyewitness accounts so maybe some of the chaos lays there—because there is such eyewitness differences on BLM topic. OKAY…next…that happen in food aisle and in center aisle between clothes and food I ran into three men who the one guy’s son is a wildland firefighter Andrew William who fought at YHF and it was so good to catch up with them than I ran into Flagstaff resident retired higher up fire community guy by the baby area in Walmart who I met getting a ginger ale for me at the bar at Bucky’s Casino while some 2015 WildLand Convention was taking place in another area- Tex and I were at the blackjack table trying to win a welder amount of funds…he wanted to be a part in this upcoming interviews and gave me his number and I typed it in and I thought I saw Sonny on scooter so I rushed off but not realizing I did not SAVE it so I told him about this site so IF you Do pop here —I messed up and do not have your number and you hopefully have the hiker’s contact information and know the interview is soon after my court order release—Than it was not Sonny I thought I saw on scooter but over by electronics I met a firefighter who was on the fire that weekend and said he wanted to thank us for everything we have done for the wildland fire community and a lot of us wish we could speak up. I asked was there a gag order on him? He said “no”. I said do you think others were gagged? He said “maybe ones at very critical points due to litigations but overall felt no and that maybe more like “bullying” techniques.” I said could I name you on a public website stating such. “No, I rather keep out. There is bigger people in this that could screw with my career.” I asked one final question- if I could interview him anonymous some critical questions and he said maybe in a few years after it all cools down—Than I am over by an area in the hospital and a lady firefighter who is actually in pending litigations (in pursuit/suing Chief Ben Palm & that dept) spoke brief too— and this person knew one of the GMHS loved ones and told me of “private” behind the scenes talk there that I hope the upcoming interviews will show some more details….also on hospital elevator one thanked us for all we have been still doing like the retardant drop map analysis of deaths ” OKAY and really soon is the one who helps police departments and the FBI and I wish one loved one who wanted to meet this person knows it is coming up soon if still quietly interested—this person has solved too many unresolved deaths and it is an area to just see—so here I am awaiting my father’s death certificate awaiting to sign the UPS thing than head back to Yarnell after I ship and fax the originals off to banks and all the wonderful close of life stuff—like social security…See you within the hour Sonny—OOOHHHHH…the boulders- BIG ones too fell off Weavers and the crew were doing that when I went down hill today— oddly it was between the elephant and lookout point these boulders fell—that might be the missing boulder I mention on here…plus it is the same area men died but on opposite side of the Weavers—this was the highway side going down hill….I gotta run…latest updates from the desert walker who has not walked the desert much lately…
Thank you, Joy ( as always ).
Geesh… that almost sounds like it was “People who know things about Yarnell but are still AFRAID to talk about it” day at the local Walmart.
Seems like every time you turned the corner… there was yet ANOTHER person who KNOWS something and still needs to talk about what they know.
Question for you regarding this ‘Injunction Against Harassment’ thing.
Hasn’t it ALREADY expired?
Arizona LAW says that these ‘Injunctions’ automatically EXPIRE exactly ONE YEAR from when they are first issued. Even if there was a ‘hearing’ and the order was ‘modified’ ( but still kept in place )… the ‘effective’ date is still the day it was originally issued, and NOT the day of the hearing itself.
So I believe a FULL YEAR has ALREADY transpired from when that order was ‘issued’.
When do YOU think it actually ‘expires’?
SIDENOTE: I would still advise you to simply request a LETTER from the Court Clerk that states ( in WRITING ) that this original ‘Injunction’ has, in fact, gone ‘off the clock’ and has now EXPIRED. It is your RIGHT to request ( and RECEIVE ) such a ‘letter’ to keep for your own records and for ‘future reference’.
Good idea wwtktt since I do plan to start sharing 2015.
I remember it like yesterday.
I had all these documents I was going to present January 6 2015 meeting and on the 4th my perimeter cameras show ycso served me and I hiked January 5 because Sonny did not have running vehicles and my hearing was to be fifth but judge no showed and today is my one year anniversary that Willis said after hearing he had to show support to loved ones and don’t hold it against him…that we were ok the hikers n him…yet the man did not support the loved ones when he voted against them this Fall….Oorah…loyally to the task at moment or fire community weighs heavier than the loved ones. do I just call or snail mail wwtktt that letter request…yes today is my one year anniversary to my first time ever in a court room and listen to Willis hearsay…I like Willis and his wife even with such hearing.
Wwtktt..sent you email…I was in mountain range…you might think I have the RIGHT but just confirmed with Prescott Court Clerk.. That is not accurate what you stated public.
Reply to joy a collura post on January 8, 2016 at 11:25 am
>> joy a collura said…
>>
>> you might think I have the RIGHT but just confirmed with
>> Prescott Court Clerk.. That is not accurate what you stated public.
You just have to love “Planet Arizona”.
So… you’re saying that an official PUBLIC employee of the PUBLIC Prescott Court system just told you that YOU are not even ENTITLED to know if a court order that the court this PUBLIC employee works for might have issued against you is still ‘in effect’… or not?
It boggles the mind.
By the way… in the very FORM that Amanda Marsh had to fill out it specifically says whatever ‘Injunction’ might result from that form request will ONLY last for 1 year from the day it is SERVED on you ( and not 1 year from the date of any subsequent hearing related to the original injunction ).
http://courts.yavapai.us/prescottjc/orders-of-protectionharassment-injunctions/
Click on OP / IH Forms.
NOTE: Prescott Consolidated Court System uses the SAME form for both an ‘Order of Protection’ ( OP ) request and an ‘Injunction Against Harassment’ ( IH ) request. The only thing that makes the requests different is which CHECKBOXES are checked on the form.
Amanda Beno Marsh requested an ‘Injunction Against Harassment’ with her ‘form’, and not a ‘Protective Order’.
Direct link to a blank copy of the same form Amanda Beno Marsh originally filled out…
http://courts.yavapai.us/prescottjc/files/2012/02/OPHI-Forms.pdf
From PDF page 3 ( of 5 pages )…
4. SERVICE AND EFFECT:
This protective order is valid for one year from the date it is served on the Defendant
So it is ONE YEAR from when it is initially SERVED ( on you )… and NOT one year from whenever the hearing takes place. Even if the order is ‘modified’ during the hearing that does NOT change the 1 year ‘countdown’ on the Injunction. It still starts the day it was SERVED on you.
There is also this in the same form…
11. PUBLIC ACCESS:
Only the information contained in the served protective order, not the petition, will be entered into the state computer system and will be made public on the internet. See next page to keep your address(es) private
What that is saying is that the case/order information is SUPPOSED to be showing up online, but the original petition most likely will NOT.
In other words… the Judge would have to somehow, someway officially SEAL the case in order for it to NOT be appearing in the Public Court Records System along with the proper CASE NUMBER.
So SEALED BY THE JUDGE ( which also has to be officially recorded somewhere if it happened ) you still most certainly have the right to request your OWN copy of the Court Case records… which also MUST contain a ‘resolution’ entry such as “Case has EXPIRED” or “ORDER has expired”.
I repeat my original recommendation.
Given the ‘weirdness’ of this whole thing in the first place… I would still try to obtain something in WRITING which CONFIRMS that this ‘order’ that was originally issued at the start of 2015 is now NO LONGER IN EFFECT.
I wouldn’t settle for some ‘clerk’ just telling you anything over the phone.
There HAS to be a way for a citizen to receive, in WRITING, some kind of ‘notification’ that a ‘court order’ they might have been under is NO LONGER IN EFFECT.
Yes I was about Wal-Mart on one of those electric carts. That certainly is not my style and only when necessary. I am allowing myself a up to six weeks. I want to get back to those hikes.
I have to consider what has laid so many of our Yarnell friends and neighbors down. Most of those people that have died and ( I think I was one of them) are elderly (I am) and generally already had health issues. In a study of what are seven varieties of the LC95-A retardant allowed by the USFS, I have found they contain some very dangerous chemicals. Two of the most dangerous beside the NH3, are hexylene glycol and flouro surfacants.
Ethylene glycol is anti freeze and a little bit will kill your dog. Ten teaspoons over a ten day period will kill you in a very slow and painful way to die. Now we go to Hexylene glycol found in the orange slurry dropped on you or near your home. This stuff is way more dangerous to your health only a little above 25 parts per million when you breath it in can cause fatigue, reduced concentration, nerve effects such as the feeling of pins and needles in your arms and legs, and may affect kidneys, liver and the central nervous system Twenty five ppm is a very small amount.
Next are the flouro surfacants. These dangerous chemicals have plenty of flourine atoms attached to SO3 and they reduce water tension by a half. Flourine is a very poinous substance. Florine gas is highly toxic and will damage kidneys and respiratory systems above 25ppm.
So we see those two chemicals are dangerous in very small concentrations. Add to the the excessive amount of NH3, ammonia gas, another poison that destroys lung tissue and we have no wonder that these elderly people are expired from lung and heart conditions. That count is over 70 since the Yarnell dump of over 30,000 gallons literally in peoples back yards and even in some cases front yards.
Now I see that Monsanto was the original producer of these chemical fire retardants, but then the next known company was Astaris out of Idaho who transferred that part of their business to the Israel Chemical Company, Ltd. So most of this retardant dropped is imported. They will assure you of how safe their chemical is and so will your friendly armed Forest Ranger. But he is not armed with the knowledge to tell you what the 8-16% trade secret chemicals are that you get when this toxin is dumped. I can’t tell you either and only a doctor can know but he can’t let it be known–you might reveal the secret potion to the public and supposedly this will cost the Israeli company competition in producing their toxic slop’ Likely the forester won’t even know that it is an ammonia phosphate base that kills fish by the thousands if dumped in a pond or river as it has done over the US.
All of this reminds me of my old Uranium mining days. We were told and believed that the low level radiation of mines would have no health effects. In those days we needed plenty of Uranium to make bombs to scare Russia with. There were billions of dollars involved and big business enterprises so what value are a few uranium miners or workers lives and health worth against the good for the whole of business and the safety of society. It is after all similar to what a soldier does to defend the safety and good of the nation.
Now we look at the wildfire fighting hero. Consider the millions distributed to the multi million dollar business of agent orange looking LC95-A with its known toxins and unknown toxins hidden under the name of trade secrets. Alike the Uranium miner we must balance the health and life of the wild land fighter against the value of use of that poison Agent Orange like LC-95A retardant. Thousands of dead fish have proven the toxic effects on life and that in itself ought to send out warning to public. Over seventy of the elderly dead since the fire ought to bear and investigation about health effects. Yet you young firefighters like the young Uranium miner will see few or no effects until later in life. Lung tissues and toxic build up will take its time to surface-if not soon then even decades to evolve. I hope you, like the Uranium miner will get a consolation prize for your dangerous work. Some Uranium miners, downwind Uranium exposed persons, Uranium mill workers can get between $150,000 and $270,000 if they have lung cancer or other respiratory or cancerous diseases if they worked before 1973. My time was in after that so I did not qualify even though I have the cancer and COPD connected with those Uranium doses. I did give an application to a neighbor whom had served in the Navy and was exposed while watching the Hydrogen Bomb going off and received a nice dose of fall out–the ash falling like the ash of Yarnell.
But wouldn’t it be better we had an honest appraisal of the effects of these chemicals? Wouldn’t it be a great thing if we had an honest investigation of all the skulduggery that went on connected with the Yarnell catastrophe? Don’t hold your breath, but know this information is readily available and well known by the companies promoting their deadly wares.
Sonny said
except for one thing, Grant McKee was under strict orders to obey his superior so no matter what drugs were in him he did exactly as Marsh and Steed told him to do and the other 16 were in agreement also.
Sonny. If the documentation we have is (remotely) accurate. I believe there is 100% chance Eric Marsh did not contact Grant McKee and order him to the ranch! And I mean that with all of me.
Grant McKee and the GMH were reporting to Jesse Steed at the YHF on 6/30/13. That needs to be acknowledged if there are any Lessons Learned here.
IF there was an argument between Marsh and Steed prior to the GMH descending from the ridge, or leaving their lunch spot, or wherever. That seems to be further evidence of the point I am making.
Bob or RTS has NEVER alleged an argument occurred between McKee (or any other GMH), only Steed. Because Steed would have been in command.. If that even happened, not saying it didn’t.
But. The failure of the SAIT, and all of the ensuing (green blood everywhere) BULLSHIT, has led to a whitewash of what actually occurred that dreadful day.
We can all imagine there was an emergency plan to attempt to save Glen Isla. With a dozer, handline, and fire retardant? What else would the GMH be doing in that location? And the BSR was *most likely* top priority. Mr Helms had direct contact with fire commanders even during the burnover. And arrived BACK to his home (with fire commanders) immediately following the discovery of the deceased 19.
And the omission of important information/ investigation stinks. And I do not believe it is an attempt to cover for the 19. I do believe it is to protect some of the living and the system they all long to be a part of.
On a personal note. I had to euthanize one of my dogs today, first time in my life. May be that is where my anger is coming from.
Reply to calvin post on January 6, 2016 at 9:15 am
>> calvin said…
>>
>> Grant McKee and the GMH were reporting to Jesse Steed at the YHF on 6/30/13.
>> That needs to be acknowledged if there are any Lessons Learned here.
Yes. And if there was any ‘dissent’ coming from GM Squad leaders and/or crew… that ‘dissent’ would have been being expressed to Jesse Steed himself.
That being said… it’s worth pointing out that if/when this ‘alleged’ argument took place between Jesse Steed and Eric Marsh… the entire GM Crew would have most likely HEARD it taking place.
From the two 9 second video clips we DO have taken by Christopher MacKenzie at that ‘rest spot’… we can clearly hear that it was NOT Jesse Steed’s habit to be using an ‘earpiece’ or otherwise be trying to ‘hide’ his communications over the GM Crew Net from the Crew itself.
Even if they were not in earshot… there were supposedly ELEVEN handheld radios out there with that GM crew and they still would have been able to hear for themselves what was transpiring between Steed and Marsh over the GM Crew Net.
So I think it’s still safe to say that even though the Granite Mountain CREW was ONLY directly answerable to Jesse Steed that afternoon ( on a pure ‘org chart’ level, at that point ), they must have been very much AWARE that the guy who is NORMALLY their ‘org chart’ Superintendent was expressing HIS ‘wishes’ to the guy who is NORMALLY just the ‘Assistant Superintendent’ on that same ‘org chart’.
But there really is no doubt that the only way those men would have left that position, when all was said and done, is if Jesse Steed himself had ‘given the order’ to move.
The only place their ‘free will’ could have then kicked in is if they really did think it was a crazy thing to attempt and they had exercised their own individual rights to turn down any order or directive that they considered ‘crazy’ or ‘too unsafe’
I wish they had.
Even Mike Dudley… the co-author of the document that said no one did anything wrong that day and that there was no ‘negligence’ or ‘overly risky’ behavior had this to say ( in public ) to a roomful of Utah firefighters…
SAIT Co-Lead Mike Dudley said…
———————————————————————————————-
There’s a part of me that HAS to wonder… as they stood there on that saddle and they started droppin’ down the slope… I would like to think a few members of the crew had that little gnawing ‘pit’ in their stomach sayin’… “Is this a good idea?”.
But… would any one of ’em have spoken up and argued against the superintendent… or the acting? I don’t know.
———————————————————————————————-
>> calvin also said…
>>
>> We can all imagine there was an emergency plan to attempt to save Glen Isla.
>> With a dozer, handline, and fire retardant? What else would the GMH be doing
>> in that location?
The evidence just continues to mount that that WAS the case that day.
Even in Tyson Esquibel’s handwritten Unit Log we find this, when he was detailing that late-afternoon ‘Cutover Trail’ dozer push assignment that Cordes came up with…
————————————————————————————————-
1445 ( 2:45 PM )
Met with Structure Group 2 ( Cordes ). Plan to use TF2 ( Esquibel’s Task Force 2 ) resources to tie dozer line to rock outcrop on Mountain west of Shrine Road in Harper Canyon. Blue Ridge IHC and Granite Mountain IHC to improve dozer line. Proposed burnout possible in night or evening.
————————————————————————————————–
Notice that it seemed to be Tyson Esquibel’s SPECIFIC impression ( as early as 2:45 PM ) that this ‘new’ dozer line that he was instructed to push ( by Cordes ) on that ‘Cutover Trail’ between the Sesame Clearing and the Harper Canyon area was supposed to then be ‘improved’ ( once finished ) by TWO Type 1 IHC crews… and not just Blue Ridge. Esquibel seems to be saying that BOTH Granite Mountain and Blue Ridge were supposed to ‘improve’ that new, proposed dozer line near Yarnell once it was ‘pushed’ by the dozer that afternoon.
SPGS Gary Cordes himself also seems to CONFIRM this ‘impression’ of Esquibel’s in his own ADOSH interview on September 11, 2013…
Q2 = Dave Larsen, ADOSH / WFA investigator ( Rest In Peace )
A = SPGS1 Gary Cordes
————————————————————————————————
A: So once it was determined they didn’t need the dozer anymore and we now knew that the fire pooched out to the northeast, my concern was if we had wind change it would hook around back towards town, so we came back and just north of the, the ranch on Sesame Street, there’s a, there’s a road that goes um, northeast and towards shrine, so we improved that road to now become the primary um, line and, and then planned on burning that out that evening once we got it all tied into the rock pile,
That was an only masticated area in there, I guess it was cleaned up about three years ago so we had, we did good on that, uh, we tied it into um, into Shrine, back in there, uh, cut it across between, I’m guessing it’s between those, what looks like those two roads in there and we actually were able to um, it was a couple hundred feet that they had to go in and, and I had three engines doing saw work in there to tie it into the rock pile up in there. And that was actively just about done when this fire had uh, blown up and changed direction on us. And then Blue Ridge had picked up, my guys were tying into the, into the rock pile, um, and Blue Ridge was improving that dozer line back on that, on that road going back to Sesame Street from Shrine.
Q2: Blue Ridge was uh, working for Eric?
A: …you know, it initially sounded like he was assigned to alpha. Um, Eric told him he didn’t need him up there and so Blue Ridge was kinda just, kind of um, I guess just, they, they jumped over and started helping me for the most part. They weren’t technically assigned to me but they were, they had jumped in looking, you know, looking for work, so we identified the need in there to improve this dozer line so that was their primary uh, primary goal. My understanding was that, maybe it’s just my interpretation, but I, I thought I had heard some conversation on the radio at one point uh, where Granite Mountain would come in and tie in that uh, western edge of that line and start working that back in. Um, that was my general understanding. Whether that was a face to face with somebody from Blue Ridge or whether I heard that on the radio, but that was my understanding of what the next, next work was gonna be done.
Q2: Well was tying a, some type of hand line into the dozer line?
A: Right…
————————————————————————————————–
So Gary Cordes is almost totally CONFIRMING Tyson Esquibel’s ‘impression’ that he wrote down in his own Unit Log.
Cordes is NOT talking about the ‘plan from the morning’, at this point.
Cordes is now SPECIFICALLY talking about this OTHER plan he came up with later in the afternoon to improve that ‘Cutover Trail’ in the hopes of protecting Yarnell.
He seems to be CONFIRMING what Esquibel thought… that this NEW late-afternoon project ( the ‘new’ dozer push specifically from the Sesame Clearing northwest to the Shrine Road and Harper canyon ) was GOING to then be ‘worked on’ by BOTH ‘Granite Mountain’ and ‘Blue Ridge’ as soon as the dozer was done ‘pushing’ it.
SIDENOTE: Notice also that in this same section from his ADOSH testimony… Cordes is also CONFIRMING that Blue Ridge really were the “lost boys” that day. Even Cordes seemed to know they had NOT been ‘assigned’ to him and were, in fact, ‘assigned’ to DIVSA Eric Marsh that morning… like OPS1 Todd Abel himself said to ADOSH.
But we also seem to see CONFIRMATION here from Cordes that Blue Ridge really did make some kind of offer to go up there and HELP Granite Mountain get that anchor point assignment done and over with in a timely fashion… but Eric Marsh himself seems to have REFUSED their help.
So that’s when they ended up just sitting there near their Carriers in the Sesame Clearing area for the next 4 and 1/2 HOURS until circa 2:45 PM when Cordes and Esquibel came up with this NEW plan and Blue Ridge ( finally ) had “something to do”.
>> calvin also said…
>>
>> And the BSR was *most likely* top priority.
Perhaps… but see above.
Tyson Esquibel AND Gary Cords definitely seemed to be under the impression that the ‘priority’ for late afternoon was to push that dozer line over to Harper Canyon, and then have BOTH the Type 1 IHC crews that were there ( BOTH Granite Mountain AND Blue Ridge ) ‘improving’ that emergency ‘keep it out of Yarnell’ dozer line.
If the understanding really was that Granite Mountain was SUPPOSED to get down there and help improve that ‘new’ ‘Cutover Trail’ dozer push WITH ‘Blue Ride’… then the BSR was just a ‘way to get to the assignment’ and not a ‘destination’ in and of itself.
>> calvin also said…
>>
>> On a personal note. I had to euthanize one of my dogs today, first time in my life.
My sincere condolences, calvin. Truly.
Been there a number of times and it is NEVER easy.
Followup…
It’s probably also worth noting that while TLFD2(t) Trainee Tyson Esquibel saw fit to detail exactly WHEN SPGS Gary Cordes ‘hatched’ this late-afternoon ‘do something to protect Yarnell’ plan utilizing a NEW ‘dozer push’ on the Cutover Trail… and Esquibel then details ALL of the resources that were supposed to be involved including his own Task Force and TWO (2) IHC ‘Hotshot Crews’ ( BOTH Blue Ridge AND Granite Mountain )…
Gary Cordes’ own (signed) Unit Log contains NO MENTION of this plan whatsoever.
Like it didn’t even exist… or that he was the author of it… or where Esquibel might have even gotten the impression that BOTH Granite Mountain AND Blue Ridge were supposed to be ‘improving’ THAT new dozer line near Yarnell.
Here again is Tyson Esquibel’s 2:45 PM Unit Log entry…
————————————————————————————————-
1445 ( 2:45 PM )
Met with Structure Group 2 ( Cordes ). Plan to use TF2 ( Esquibel’s Task Force 2 ) resources to tie dozer line to rock outcrop on Mountain west of Shrine Road in Harper Canyon. Blue Ridge IHC and Granite Mountain IHC to improve dozer line. Proposed burnout possible in night or evening.
————————————————————————————————–
And here are ALL of the entries in Gary Cordes’ own (signed) Unit Log covering the same timeframe Esquibel mentions…
Gary Cordes makes NO mention of this ‘Cutover Trail’ dozer assignment that Esquibel wrote about in his Unit Log…
————————————————————————
Activity Log ( continuation )
Incident Name: Yarnell Hill
Name: Gary Cordes
ICS Position: Structure Group 1
Submitted/signed on: 7/26/13 – 1400 ( 2:00 PM )
All times are approximate.
6/30 – 0845 ( 8:45 AM )
Dozer arrived – started them to work after briefing on Sesame Street.
Ordered Dozer Boss. Stayed with dozer pushing line until Ball
from Blue Ridge took the Dozer Boss position. Ball was briefed
on operation and intent.
6/30 – 1000 ( 10:00 AM )
Tyson – Task Force Leader with 4 typ 6 and 2 tendors showed up.
Briefed and assigned to recon the community and make a presence.
6/30 – 1230 ( 12:30 PM )
Requested a frequency change to a separate TAC due to increased
activity with STR GRP 2 sharing TAC 2. TAC 3 assigned. All resources
notified and moved to TAC 3
6/30 – 1400 ( 2:00 PM )
YCSO started pre evac notice.
6/30 – 1530 ( 3:30 PM )
Fire turned 90 degrees from NE activity to S / SW from outflow of storm
NORTH of fire. Flank – approx 3 (?) became active head moving S / SW.
6/30 – 1540 ( 3:40 PM )
Yarnell evac trigger point met. Evac requested
6/30 – 1545 ( 3:45 PM )
OPS – Musser met and discussed options.
6/30 – 1550 ( 3:50 PM )
Trigger point for crew removal met. Ordered to start out of assigned area.
6/30 – 1555 ( 3:55 PM )
Fire hitting top of ridge north side of town. Asked OPS Abel to have Air Ops start
dropping at will. Also advised I had lost use of Air to Ground FX.
6/30 – 1600 ( 4:00 PM )
Fire hitting town. Assisting with evac.
6/30 – 1615 ( 4:15 PM )
Met at staging to tie in with assigned resources.
Advised of deployment by E-59 ( Engine 59 – Captain Reyes ).
6/30 – 1620 ( 4:20 PM )
Entered subdivision of Glen Ilah removing 4 stranded elderly on
several trips in and out. Turned over to ambulance for TX.
————————————————————————
The ONLY time SPGS Gary Cordes even admitted to there being such a ‘plan’ involving this ‘Cutover Trail’ and (supposedly) TWO Hotshot crews to ‘improve’ it ( BOTH Granite Mountain AND Blue Ridge ) is when he was being QUESTIONED about it by the ADOSH investigators.
They, themselves, were already aware of this IMPORTANT ‘plan’ that ended up involving LOTS of resources… and they were wondering, themselves, why Gary Cordes made absolutely NO MENTION of it in his own ‘Unit Log’.
I tried but I can’t stay away…
WTKTT: I was wrong when I said you need to work on your technique. Keep doing the excellent work you are doing such as this above. Thank you!
Woodsman
Given that GMHS Grant Scott McKee had several prescription drugs in his blood, this is an interesting and somewhat relevant, 2008 Fire Engineering article titled ‘Firefighter Deaths from Prescription Medications: Two Case Studies.”
Indeed, breathing in the super-heated air and thermal burns from the YH Fire were the cause of death and NOT the prescription drugs for the structural firefighters in the article.
http://www.fireengineering.com/articles/print/volume-161/issue-12/departments/fire-service-ems/firefighter-deaths-from-prescription-medications-two-case-studies.html
Article below verbatim from Fire Engineering (12/01/2008)
Firefighter Deaths from Prescription Medications: Two Case Studies
12/01/2008
By Tommy Baldwin and Tom Hales
Firefighters have hazardous jobs—jobs that put them at risk for injury and illness.1-5 Many of these injuries/illnesses involve the musculoskeletal system, (2, 4, 5) whose treatment may involve the short-term prescription of painkilling medications, including narcotics. Typically, these injuries/illnesses resolve before work restrictions are needed. However, in some cases, the pain persists and work restrictions, for the condition or for the prescribed medications, are appropriate. This article highlights the potential dangers of taking pain medications by describing the on-duty deaths of two firefighters whose deaths were ascribed to prescribed narcotics and other painkillers. The article includes guidance on this topic as set forth in National Fire Protection Association (NFPA) 1582, Standard on Comprehensive Occupational Medical Program for Fire Departments.
CASE STUDIES
Case #1 involved a 31-year-old male volunteer firefighter who responded to his station during a 911 call for smoke in a basement. After arriving at his fire station, he waited for one of the fire department’s driver/operators to arrive and drive him and the engine to the scene. While he was waiting, the first assistant chief arrived at the residence, determined a full response was not needed, and cancelled the response. The driver/operator returned home without arriving at the fire station. About 30 minutes later, a civilian driving by the fire station noticed a collapsed firefighter just inside the station and notified 911. Despite cardiopulmonary resuscitation and advanced life support, the firefighter died. The death certificate and autopsy listed “acute intoxication by the combined effects of propoxyphene (Darvon®) and cyclobenzaprine (Flexeril®)” as the cause of death and “hypertension” as another condition.
The firefighter had a medical history of chronic strained back muscles (not duty related) and had been prescribed pain medications for five years.7 Prescriptions included narcotics (Darvon®, Percocet®, Oxycontin®) and a muscle relaxant (Flexeril®). At autopsy, the firefighter had a propoxyphene blood level of 3.3 milligrams per liter (mg/L), well above the therapeutic level of 0.42 mg/L. He also had a cyclobenzaprine blood level of 0.09 mg/L, well above the therapeutic level of 0.026 mg/L. (7)
The department requires preplacement medical evaluations for applicants and periodic medical evaluations for all members. The physician conducting the department’s periodic medical evaluations was unaware of the firefighter’s history of back pain or narcotic use and cleared him for unrestricted duty two years prior to his death. Medical records suggested the firefighter did not disclose his former and current prescription use or his history of chronic back pain to the department physician.
Case #2 involved a 28-year-old male volunteer chief attending an emergency medical services conference. The evening before the conference, the chief and his wife went to bed at 2230 hours. The next morning, at 0900 hours, the chief’s spouse awoke and found the chief unresponsive. She called 911, and an ambulance responded. From the chief’s clinical condition, it was obvious he had expired some time earlier. Cardiopulmonary resuscitation and advanced life support treatment were not performed, and he was pronounced dead at the scene. The death certificate and the autopsy, conducted by the chief medical examiner, listed “accidental multiple drug intoxication” as the cause of death.
The chief had a history of a back injury with subsequent surgery. He had been prescribed pain medications for eight years, which included narcotics (MS Contin®), muscle relaxants (Flexeril®, Robaxin®, Valium®), antidepressants (Effexor®, Paxil®), and sleeping pills (Ambien®).8 At autopsy, the chief had a morphine (MS Contin®) blood level of <50 nanograms per milliliter (ng/mL); well within the therapeutic level of 80 ng/mL. He also had a diazepam (Valium®) blood level of 514 ng/mL; well within the therapeutic level of 1,000 ng/mL. (8) Although both medicines were within therapeutic level, the chief medical examiner felt the interaction of the two drugs was responsible for the chief’s death.
The department did not require preplacement or periodic medical evaluations. However, according to the department, all firefighter applicants must be in self-reported excellent health and physically fit. The chief’s personal physician was aware of NFPA 1582 guidance regarding narcotic use but cleared the chief for light duty based on the chief’s self-assessment that he did not respond to “emergencies.”
DISCUSSION
These two cases illustrate the dangers of taking multiple pain medications. Table 1 lists the generic and brand names of the medications prescribed over a five- and eight-year period for these two firefighters. These medications are dangerous not only because of the risk of overdosing but because they also have side effects that can impair the performance of firefighting duties. Table 2 lists the side effects of the medications, which can affect firefighter work performance. Taking pain medications when working jeopardizes that firefighter’s safety as well as the safety of other firefighters operating at the emergency scene. This risk extends to the general public if the firefighter is operating apparatus under emergency conditions.
These deaths highlight the importance of periodic medical evaluations by fire departments. During these evaluations, firefighters must provide an accurate medical history to the examining physician. In Case #1, periodic medical evaluations were performed, but the firefighter did not report his medication use to the examining physician. In Case #2, the chief provided accurate information to his private physician, but the department did not require periodic medical evaluations. These recommendations apply to firefighters who respond to emergency calls as well as to some who have other roles—for example, firefighters who don’t respond to real emergencies but participate in live-fire drills.
Propoxyphene (Darvon®) is a narcotic analgesic that has been in clinical use since 1963. It is somewhat less potent than codeine and bears a close structural relationship to methadone. It is available in oral formulations as the hydrochloride (Propoxyphene HCl) or the napsylate salt [Propoxyphene N (Darvocet-N®)]. Both formulations are often combined with aspirin or acetaminophen. Daily therapeutic oral doses of propoxyphene range from 128-390 mg for Propoxyphene HCl and from 200-600 mg for Propoxyphene N.9
Propoxyphene is metabolized to norpropoxyphene, which is one-fourth to one-half as active an analgesic as propoxyphene, but it accumulates in blood plasma because of a longer half-life. The contribution of norpropoxyphene to the efficacy or toxicity of the parent drug has not been thoroughly established (9),10 Propoxyphene has the usual respiratory depressant effects common to all beta-agonist narcotics. (10) Overdosage with propoxyphene can result in stupor, coma, convulsions, respiratory depression, cardiac arrhythmias, hypotension, pulmonary edema, and circulatory collapse.
CONTINUED ON NEXT REPLY
CONTINUATION OF ABOVE FIRE ENGINEERING ARTICLE
Following a single 130-mg oral dose of propoxyphene HCl, plasma concentrations reach 0.23 milligrams per liter (mg/L) at two hours; the plasma concentration of its metabolite (norpropoxyphene) reaches 0.27 mg/L at four hours. Chronic daily doses of 195 mg of propoxyphene HCl were shown to produce average plasma concentrations of 0.42 mg/L propoxyphene and 1.45 mg/L norpropoxyphene two hours after the last administration. (9)
Generally, blood propoxyphene concentrations exceeding 1 mg/L are considered indicative of serious toxicity, and concentrations of 2 mg/L or more are consistent with death. However, fatalities have been reported with blood propoxyphene concentrations <1 mg/L.(9) Seven acutely intoxicated patients who survived because of hospital treatment were found to have average plasma propoxyphene and norpropoxyphene concentrations of 1.6 mg/L and 2.0 mg/L, respectively. (9) In another report of 72 cases in which acute propoxyphene overdosage was the sole cause of death, postmortem femoral blood concentrations averaged 2.8 mg/L (range, 1.3 – 8.1). In most specimens, norpropoxyphene concentrations exceed those of propoxyphene. (9)
To provide guidance for physicians and other health care providers for maintaining a comprehensive occupational medical program for fire departments, the NFPA developed NFPA 1582, Standard on Comprehensive Occupational Medical Program for Fire Departments. (6) Among other issues, NFPA 1582 provides guidance on medication use that should result in restricted duty. NFPA 1582 considers narcotics use to be a Category A condition for candidates, defined as “a medical condition that would preclude a person from performing as a member in a training or an emergency operational environment by presenting a significant risk to the safety and health of the person or others.”(6) Candidates’ use of psychiatric medications and muscle relaxants is considered a Category B condition, defined as “a medical condition that, based on its severity or degree, could preclude a person from performing as a member in a training or [an] emergency operational environment by presenting a significant risk to the safety and health of the person or others.”(6)
NFPA 1582 recommends that any prescription medicine (narcotics, muscle relaxants, sedatives, etc.) that alters mental status, vigilance, judgment, or other neurologic functions should result in temporary restrictions. These medications preclude a firefighter from safely performing the essential job tasks of firefighting (Table 3 not shown).
Other occupations whose job tasks involve public safety also restrict the use of prescription medications. For example, the U.S. Department of Transportation will not issue a commercial driver’s license to “a person taking narcotics unless the drug is prescribed by a licensed medical practitioner who is familiar with the driver’s medical history and assigned duties and has advised the driver that the prescribed drug will not adversely affect the driver’s ability to safely operate a commercial vehicle.”11
The Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) will defer medical certification for pilots taking mood-ameliorating, narcotic, or sedative medications unless the treatment has been previously cleared by FAA medical authority. During periods in which these medications are being used for treatment of acute illnesses, the airman is under obligation to refrain from exercising the privileges of his airman medical certificate unless cleared by the FAA.12
For police officers, the Commonwealth of Massachusetts considers the use of narcotics, sedatives, and psychoactive agents to be a “Category B” medical condition that could preclude a candidate from performing the essential functions of a police officer because of the safety risk.13
The State of California has determined that medication-induced impairment can place a patrol officer and others at substantial risk of harm. Consequently, all candidates who report the use of medications on a chronic or an intermittent basis must be carefully evaluated to determine their suitability for unrestricted duty.14
NFPA 1582 also addresses fitness-for-duty issues for candidates and members with spine disorders and back pain. For candidates, a history of spinal surgery involving fusion of two or more vertebrae and any spinal or skeletal condition causing pain that frequently or recurrently requires narcotic analgesic medication are considered Category A conditions, precluding them from becoming firefighters.
For members, spinal fusion at two or more levels and a spinal condition with significant radiculopathy resulting in peripheral motor weakness, loss of strength, sensation, and reflexes affecting endurance, strength, flexibility, pain, and/or gait disturbances compromises the member’s ability to safely perform essential job tasks 1, 2, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, and 13 (Table 3).
To ensure the safety of firefighters and the public whose lives they protect and to address prescription medication use in firefighters, fire departments should do the following:
Provide post-offer/preplacement medical evaluations to candidates and annual medical evaluations to members in accordance with NFPA 1582.
Ensure members are knowledgeable of, and comply with, fire department requirements regarding reporting any medical condition that could interfere with their ability to safely perform essential job tasks. This must include all medications, prescription and over-the-counter.
Ensure that firefighters are cleared for duty by a physician knowledgeable about the physical demands of firefighting and the various components of NFPA 1582.
References
1. Brandt-Rauf, PW, LF Fallon Jr., T Tarantini, C Idema, L Andrews, “Health hazards of firefighters: exposure assessment,” Br J Ind Med, 1988; 45:606-612.
2. Matticks CA, JJ Westwater, HN Himel, RF Morgan, RF Edlich, “Health risks to firefighters,” J Burn Care Rehab, 1992; 13:223-235.
3. Guidotti, TL, “Human factors in firefighting: ergonomic-, cardiopulmonary-, and psychogenic stress-related issues,” Int Arch Occup Environ Health, 1992; 64:1-12.
4. Magnetti, SM, WD Wyant, J Greenwood, NJ Roder, JC Linton, AM Ducatman, “Injuries to volunteer firefighters in West Virginia,” JOEM, 1998; 41(2):104-110.
5. Reichelt, PA, KM Conrad,”Musculosckeletal injury: ergonomics and physical fitness in firefighters.” In: Orris P, J Melius, RM Duffy, eds. Occupational medicine, firefighter’s safety and health. (Philadelphia, PA: Hanley and Belfus, 1995), (10)4: 735-746.
6. NFPA 1582: Standard on Comprehensive Occupational Medical Program for Fire Departments. Quincy MA: National Fire Protection Association.
7. “Fire Fighter Dies After Responding to a Call–New York.” Morgantown, WV: U.S. Department of Health and Human Services, Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, National Institute for Occupational Safety and Health, Division of Safety Research. Fire Fighter Fatality Investigation and Prevention Program Report No. F2005-24. http://www.cdc.gov/niosh/fire/reports/face200524.html.
8. “Fire Chief Suffers Sudden Death During Training–Alabama,” Morgantown, WV: U.S. Department of Health and Human Services, Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, National Institute for Occupational Safety and Health, Division of Safety Research. Fire Fighter Fatality Investigation and Prevention Program Report No. F2006-01. http://www.cdc.gov/niosh/fire/reports/face200601.html.
9. Baselt RC. Disposition of Toxic Drugs and Chemicals in Man. (Foster City, CA: Biomedical Publications. 7th Edition, 2004), 953-956.
10. Karch SB. Karch’s Pathology of Drug Abuse. (Boca Raton, FL: CRC Press. 3rd Edition, 2002), 372-373.
11. CFR. 49 CFR 391.41, Physical Qualifications for Drivers. Code of Federal Regulations. Washington, DC: National Archives and Records Administration, Office of the Federal Register.
12. Guide for aviation medical examiners: application process for medical certification. [http://www.faa.gov/about/office_org/
headquarters_offices/avs/offices/aam/ame/guide/app_process/
app_history/item17a/index.cfm?print=go]. FAA, 2006. Date accessed: January 2007.
13. Municipal police officers’ medical standards and essential functions. Public Employee Retirement Administration Commission. Commonwealth of Massachusetts: Sommerville, Mass., 2004.
14. Medical Screening Manual for California Law Enforcement. California Commission on Peace Officer Standards and Training. Sacramento, Ca., 2004.
TOMMY BALDWIN, MS, is with the NIOSH Fire Fighter Fatality Investigation and Prevention Program, Cardiovascular Disease Component, Cincinnati, Ohio. He is a National Association of Fire Investigators (NAFI)-certified fire and explosion investigator, an International Fire Service Accreditation Congress (IFSAC)-certified fire officer I, and a former firefighter/EMT and chief. He has a B.S. in fire investigation and an M.S. in loss prevention and safety from Eastern Kentucky University.
TOM HALES, MD, MPH, is the team leader for the NIOSH Fire Fighter Fatality Investigation and Prevention Program, Cardiovascular Disease Component, Cincinnati, Ohio. He is board certified in internal medicine and occupational medicine and is a member of the NFPA Technical Committee Fire Service Occupational Safety and Health.
except for one thing, Grant McKee was under strict orders to obey his superior so no matter what drugs were in him he did exactly as Marsh and Steed told him to do and the other 16 were in agreement also.
Here’s a question for RTS: Do you consider it ‘free will’ if a crew boss is urged several times by a supervisor, because he has reservations ie: ‘doesn’t like it’ ‘bad vibe’ etc, to move a crew by a DIVS that happens to be the crew’s superintendent in his regular position, which summarily leads to the death of said crew? Who on the GMIHC do you believe was acting on their own free will that afternoon that led to their death? Only one? Two? Five? Nineteen? How many and whom?
Just bringing this to the top. Not sure if this his stance, but it seems relevant, And I still hope to hear an answer. Seems like the answer is 0, or 19. Yes?
RTS said
Sonny,
The GMHS left their SZ of the own accord. They ‘aaccepted the risk’ as the lawyers say,
and hiked down to their deaths.
Nobody forced them or made them leave.
And I agree that once Marsh realized his bad decision would lead to the death of his Crew, he decided it best to join them, thus committing suicide.
Gary,
You posted: “Do you consider it ‘free will’ if a crew boss is urged several times by a supervisor, because he has reservations ie: ‘doesn’t like it’ ‘bad vibe’ etc, to move a crew by a DIVS that happens to be the crew’s superintendent in his regular position, which summarily leads to the death of said crew? Who on the GMIHC do you believe was acting on their own free will that ?afternoon that led to their death? Only one? Two? Five? Nineteen? How many and whom?”
Yes, I believe it was “free will” for ALL 19 GMHS to follow the order(s) that led to their deaths on June 30, 2013.
DIVS Marsh had possibly been given an ‘order’ to go protect the BSR, although I believe he came up with that one on his own, with possibly suggestions and urging from STPS Cordes. He could have said NO.
I believe Steed was following ‘order(s)’ from DIVS Marsh based on his Marine Corps training and experience as well as the other two GMHS Marines based on ‘free will.’ This MAY have been a catalyst for the other GMHS to follow along with the ‘order(s).’ He/they could have said NO.
And lastly, the entire GMHS Crew was following ‘order(s)’ based on ‘free will’ when they willingly (some reluctantly?) left the black and their Safety Zone to hike to their deaths. They could have said NO individually and/or collectively.
McDonough stated that the GMHS leadership allowed for that kind of discussion and dissent in some of his interviews. I doubt that because I think they would have stayed put if they really did what he said. So, you’ll have to decide whether you want to believe him based on his habit of lying.
NO BODY FORCED THEM. THEY ALL DID IT OF THEIR OWN ‘FREE WILL.’ THEY HAD MANY OTHER, BETTER CHOICES TO NOT LEAVE THEIR SAFETY ZONE.
One of the Hot Shot Supts working on the May 2013 Thompson Ridge Fire (NM -SNF) with the GMHS under Steed, said they were doing a burning operation one evening and encountered a bunch of spotfires. He said there was good, safe black nearby with numerous, good Escape Routes. He also said there was absolutely NO problem with fire behavior or any of the other usual hazards.
This HS Supt. talked with Steed and requested the assistance of the GMHS in containing and controlling the sheer number of spotfires. He said Steed refused based on some safety concern he had.
So, on the Thompson Ridge Fire, with opportunities to aggressively and safely assist the other HS Crew with a lot of spot fires when it was safe to do so, Steed refused to help the other HS Crew.
Yet, on the YH Fire when it was absolutely UNSAFE to leave their Safety Zone and travel through the unburned downhill in chutes and into the brush choked bowl below to their deaths, this was the choice they made.
WTF? I don’t get it.
Sonny,
You posted: “… Grant McKee was under strict orders to obey his superior so no matter what drugs were in him he did exactly as Marsh and Steed told him to do and the other 16 were in agreement also.”
The WFF world is QUASI military, meaning we follow a lot of the military precepts (chain of command, following orders, etc.) and such but we do NOT ‘willingly’ give our lives as the media and some public believe.
WFF are NOT held to the “under strict orders to obey his superior so no matter what” standard. The RX drugs in McKee’s bloodstream, like the ethyl alcohol in many of the other GMHS, definitely IMPAIRED THEIR JUDGEMENT AND REDUCED THEIR ABILITY TO MAKE RATIONAL AND SAFE DECISIONS.
And we do NOT have to blindly follow orders IF they are UNSAFE, ILLEGAL, IMMORAL, and/or UNETHICAL. And STUPID orders as well with the proper response from the WFF to the supervisor.
He and the others had a choice to obey the order or not to obey it. For whatever reason – even though they likely knew and/or felt it was NOT a good idea – they obeyed the order and left their perfectly good Safety Zone.
I believe that Steed was following orders to comply with Marsh’s command to come down to the BSR based on his Marine Corps training and experience. I believe this applied to the other two GMHS Marines as well, and so with the three GMHS Marines accepting and following Marsh’s orders, even though stupid and unsafe, set the stage for the rest of the GMHS to follow.
RTS,
I respectfully disagree with your position here.
I believe handcrews are a ‘tight knit’ group, especially the more elite type 1 crews. A crew culture is developed and cultivating when working closely all fire season long. It is intrinsic to the success of the crew’s to have faithful and obedient members. There are pressures to follow orders and you are correct, that we are trained to speak up, in theory, but in practice how often does it really happen? Would you consider this being common the sign of a good crew member or would you be frustrated by the ‘insubordination’? Honestly? Not how you say it should be but how it IS.
You yourself, as a long, long time HS superintendent made it sound to me like you operated as more than a crew boss but more like a ‘life coach,’ teacher or parent.
You said:
“I encouraged our guys to talk about all kinds of things, instead of and other than mindless sports and/or movie stars and/or science fiction and other blather. I encouraged them to talk about things with substance instead of worthless, mindless fluff.
Some of them could spout off literally HUNDREDS of worthless sports statistics, yet complain that it was SO difficult to memorize ‘The WFF Rules.’ OMG, a whole 50-plus live-saving-truisms.
We even had the ‘Word of the Day’ and you had to define it and use it in a sentence related to something we did.
And I was kind of a stickler on ‘The King’s English’ as well, NOT allowing the infernal DOUBLE NEGATIVES, e.g. “I ain’t go none” and :I ain’t never been there” and the like.”
You were even a ‘stickler’ on how your crew members spoke the English language, what hobbies or interests they had, and vocabulary. It sounds like you ran a tight ship.
I believe the crew was largely young, less experienced wff’s and either would not know to say no OR would not dare to do so because of their crew culture and tight ship under Willis and Marsh.
Your knowledge and experience is invaluable to the conversation, RTS.
Woodsman
Woodsman,
Glad you’re back. I knew you would eventually.
You posted: “It is intrinsic to the success of the crew’s to have faithful and obedient members. There are pressures to follow orders and you are correct, that we are trained to speak up, in theory, but in practice how often does it really happen? Would you consider this being common the sign of a good crew member or would you be frustrated by the ‘insubordination’? Honestly? Not how you say it should be but how it IS.
“You yourself, as a long, long time HS superintendent made it sound to me like you operated as more than a crew boss but more like a ‘life coach,’ teacher or parent.”
Yes, I agree that “we are trained to speak up,” and NOT just “in theory.” It has to be talked about and inculcated in practice and in training and in real, everyday work ethic and more, You ask how often really happens, and I say it depends on how you manage your Crew.
I practiced the ‘Team Member’ versus ‘Team Player’ concept. I am NOT a Team Player and I did NOT want them on my Crew. Team Players are ‘yes men’ and ‘kiss asses’ and ‘brown-nosers’ and obsequious sycophants (look that one up).
I wanted Team Members that would follow orders when they needed to, if and when they were good, sound, safe orders and if NOT, then they needed to be COMFORTABLE ENOUGH to speak up. It was in our Standard Operating Procedures (SOP). Yes, it is a might more difficult to manage a Crew that way, but huge payoffs in the end.
I found that the ‘smart asses’ and minor troublemakers made the best Senior Crewmembers and Squad Bosses MOST of the time, because they had no problem ‘pushing the envelope’ and thinking ‘outside the box’ on their own. I did NOT want ‘sheeple.’ I wanted independent thinkers that followed orders when need and spoke up with concerns and options and such when needed.
The Crewmembers were REQUIRED to read leadership books throughout the season AND give verbal book reports. Our Team Building and Leadership training library was rife with military, mostly SEALS, Rangers, Mountaineers, and all types of Outliers, like Quantrells’ Raiders in the Civil War or Pappy Boyington’s Black Sheep Squadron in WWII). There were also some sports and some business leadership books, BUT that’s NOT what we do.
The WF world is quasi-military. Most times, we TRAINED harder than we worked on fires, so the fires were almost easy for them. We trained realistically and we caught some flack for that. Hostile work environment again, but only when we had namby-pamby, spineless, insecure supervisors.
Yes, in many ways, I did in fact operate as much more than a crew boss and instead more like a ‘life coach,’ teacher or parent. Yes indeed, especially when we had to teach these ‘kids’ things that their parents never taught them; like ‘please’ and ‘thank you’ and ‘yes/no ma-am’ and ‘yes/no sir’ and that kind of stuff. We had to put in our SOP that you had to conceal yourself when we pulled over for piss breaks alongside the road because it didn’t ‘bother’ them, even though it said U.S. F**king Government on the sides of the trucks!
And who TF cares about this sports team or player or statistics or whatever and how is that going to keep you alive on the firelines. OMG! Hostile work environment. No, the hostile work environment is the fire and the fireline. It discriminates equally and does NOT care if you are tall or short, blond, brunette, what color you are, or disoriented. The fire does NOT care.
Stuff like that.
And the double negative? We are NOT communicating when they say one thing and I interpret it as something else.
I was fortunate to have an Assistant (former military) that was willing to manage the Crew that way. If I said “yes” to an assignments, he would take the opposite stance and say “no.” And then we would ‘hash it out’ and come up with the best choice. The Crew always thought we were arguing or fighting but we were fleshing out the details to come up with the best option(s), always having a Plan B or even Plan C at times.
And if there were IMT’s that had issues with me or my management style or because I had turned down assignments in the past or whatever, then I had him speak for me and the Crew.
I went to a California Hot Shot meeting after the Stanza Fire fatalities on the Klamath NF on Jul 28, 2002, when my friend Heather was killed in this predictable and preventable Engine rollover/ Anyway, her father came to the meeting and spoke to us, opening his heart and soul to us, telling us that THEY (parent, families, friends, and loved ones) give US supervisors and leaders their family, friends, and loved ones to work for us and to keep them safe and sound. There was hardly a dry eye in the group.
The primary job of a WF supervisor is the safety and welfare of those he supervises. BOSS spelled backwards is ‘DOUBLE SOB.’ We are NOT there to be their FRIEND, we are there to be their BOSS!
So, YES, ‘life coach,’ teacher or parent.
RTS,
I like your style – the fire service needs more leaders with similar style! I have always respected Sups/Eng. Captains that would tell me what they really thought,
Thanks Norb. Those are the kind of supervisors and leaders I learned from and respected them for that too. So may as well pass on what worked and ‘pay it forward’ as they say.
Calvin-
so looking at the couple—I remember a neighbor near him showing his photos so let me go get in touch with him because a retardant drop was done in that area—and he has on ground pics—and they are time stamped correct and maybe there is vehicle pics in it I never took notice to prior.
you hear them talk about their neighbor Yetta Huntimer in video
she is buried same place as my grandfather—
http://www.legacy.com/obituaries/azcentral/obituary.aspx?pid=174357158
Marti- we are slowly trying to post here for John Dougherty each street and who died on it since this fire and so we can properly get an analysis started of the amount of deaths and who lived there and who moved away and who is ill or who has died…than eventually WWTKTT can layer on a map the deaths with an overlay of retardant drops—WWTKTT is SUPERB on gathering info and organizing it and if Tex or I die—at least there is a place HERE where I can go street by street and begin sharing who died to come to the end with the accurate number since my research is on a bluff in Lovelock NV…hope that helps you understand me posting links for people so my sources are here public vs in my head or in a file unorganized
Thanks Joy.
I think mapping that is really important.
Joy asked, “Gary, question to you…what is an area you feel we need to speak more about on the YHF…I keep feeling you are holding back on publicly speaking on a topic and I have no clue why but I feel it”
Nope…I have never held anything back, everyone who has been reading my posts know literally everything I know. Oversharing is my problem…not under sharing. And nobody should tell me anything they don’t want me to share. If it can’t be public info, I don’t want to know it. I do want the responsibility of sitting on any information on this topic. I don’t need that guilt trip.
As far as what I think we need to talk about is a moot point. I actually think we are at an impasse without additional information from those who have it. Who knew what and when did they know it. And who did what and why did they do it.
I don’t even want the Blue Ridge Hotshots to share something that is going to cause them problems. If I were a young man who still had a family to support with a wife who expected me to bring home the bacon I would keep my mouth shut as well. I just think they should say, “Fuck you…I am not talking to you because I don’t want to talk to you! I don’t even like you or what you stand for, this is OUR house, stay the fuck out of it, we built it!” Rather than blaming it on a gag order.
And Bob actually missed my point when we were called into the Forest Supervisors Office when they pulled the blinds and ordered us to keep our mouths shut and not to talk to anybody about the Battlement Creek Fire. THAT was not a Gag Order, that was a keep your fucking mouth shut order.
I look back on that fire and I am still amazed by how it was handled, given the peer counseling advisers and all of the concern about mental health these days. Let me make one thing crystal clear, we were mopping up the fire right NEXT to where the bright flagging marked where their bodies had laid early the next morning!
Furthermore, we never even talked about that fire or what happened among ourselves, ever, at anytime. It was like it didn’t even happen. We kept joking about “crispy critters” (Vietnam vet influence) and beyond the initial shock while the event was happening, nothing about that event ever seemed to bother anybody (Happy Jack Hotshot) ever. We didn’t even talk about it while it was happening in real time, we just stood there in silence. Looking back, it was really weird.
And just to clarify what I think the difference is between a “Gag Order” and a “Keep Your Fucking Mouth Shut Order” is the the first is an official order based on some authority, either statutory or by policy or directive authorized by those who are authorized to sign those kinds of orders by statutory authority since unlike the example Otis gave, and WTKTT keeps writing, these are NOT private companies who spent private money and have private employees.
And the latter is based on informal, bullying, unofficial, probably illegal or at least against everything this country theoretically stands for. AND quite the opposite is true, rather then those actions being based on legal statutory authority, those actions are in clear violation of the spirit if not the actual wording of all of the laws that are designed so that the American people will know just what the fuck their government is up to in how they run our country using our tax dollars except when it comes to national security issues or concerns that may violate someone’s right to privacy, so they went in for mental health counseling because of a traumatic event. Other than that, there should not be anything that happened on or in the aftermath of the YHF that we can’t know about.
BUT, we all know there is the way things are supposed to work and then there is the way they do work. And there are a lot of public servants who think the laws do not apply to them and short of some really expensive lawyers to sue them in court or armed rebellion, what can we do about it except blog?
I will confirm the gag order this month as I sit and interview them—
soon….
Hey, I keep my cell EMPTY and I got a strange text-
from lady who is not in my cell at all and yet I know her because she is an actress I know and so here it goes:
Actress: 3:41pm text—- “I’m dealing with screaming baby at the moment, but what can I do?? How can I help??
I was on that cell with VA from 3:20 appx 20 minutes and as I hung up I saw blink of text and read it and I replied at 3:45pm “what is this?” and then I saw text area had scroll bar and I never keep any information on my cell so I scroll up and see which APPEARS to be FROM me to HER at 3:38pm “Please help me!” and one right after “I am in longitude 112.76105512 and latitude 34.2127906 Please help me!”
Soooo I text her I did not send the please help me and have no clue how she got one from me because my cell carries no contact list or information ????—we googled it and it says ruzhou pingingshan henan china and she thought it was even stranger because recently from a warehouse there was a hostage note from CHINA that her mom was involved with knowing about so we are both like ???? so I contacted my cell company but it was weird—anyone else have odd things like that happen???
i relooked at the text and it has “-” before the number and that on google gps came back Sonny’s spot…???
very strange but now I know I was hacked but HOW they got her number is strange because I do not leave any number on that cell
and all my perimeter cameras only show normal wildlife from lion to javelina to quail and hawks and dog and cats but no people…????
how does one hack in and write something dumb like that? on a private cell number only a few even know…???
phone carrier says it takes 4-6 weeks to investigate where the text came from…wow…everything is so fast pace in life EXCEPT investigations, huh
Joy… if you are using an Android based smartphone… then it sounds like it could be something called the ‘Stagefright’ virus.
It uses a known flaw in the Android operating system to ‘take over’ any smartphone just by SENDING a text messages ( also known as an SMS message ) to that phone number.
You don’t even have to OPEN or READ the text message. Once the carrier forwards that malicious text message to your phone and it ‘receives’ it in the background… you are already ‘infected’.
Is it possible this other person is the one that had YOUR phone number on THEIR phone or in THEIR contact list?
If so… then you could just be what’s called a ‘chain target’ and you got the malware text message just because it already found your number in HER ‘Contact list’.
is the phone no good? burn it? toss it?
See the following link…
TechAdvisor Online
Article Title: How to stop Android text message virus: Protect Android phone from Stagefright MMS attack
http://www.pcadvisor.co.uk/how-to/google-android/how-stop-android-text-message-virus-app-3621072/
There is a FIX ( called a ‘patch’ ) for the Android operating system that can ‘fix’ it and prevent it from happening again… but that ‘fix’ is hard to find and install because Google doesn’t want to admit that this vulnerability exists and is already being widely exploited.
Just read the article above regarding ‘what to do’.
What appears to have happened to you might NOT be based on this text message virus… but it sure sounds like it.
Thank you
That about king geo and quene lizzy should go behind Cordes in my comment.
I wonder how many times i have backed up a lie. I have been in jail for that more than once since i am not a rat. I have spent time in jail and looked like the roque of the world for it. So I am in common with the fools that lie on the Yarnell incident. Now that I was not trying to get noteriety but that i wanted to protect ;someone else.
My brother is a rat. He has spent 27 years in an Arizona prison for his greed. He is dangerous, but then I know his life. We grew up together, and I fed the family off the land. My sisters hated my Dad, my brother didn’t give a shit. Brother Jerry used my name in Ireland and I got listed as an attempted murderer. I told that shit when he got 0ut of prison to stay out of my area. I am afraid of him only because I wont kill my own brother. Greed took him down and will keep him down unless he does as every convict does, turn to God. Money-50 grand and a letter from my sis got him out. But as his brother I trust him as much as he can throw a bull with his tail.
Cops and investigators that say they are are no better than what they are into. My Dad told me that the ruling authority was the man on the dolla. True to manny but not all. Too many though. Dad knew of the cronies, knew of the corruption, but he like most of us wanted to survive it all. Joy is righ, trust no one, get the facts, and then know what is right.
No, but I just sent all of the money I have left to Nigeria because as soon as they get it, they are going to release 100 million dollars (.U.S.) to my checking account and I get to keep half of that for paying the Nigerian customs fees for the funds that are currently being held.
Once I get that money, I am going to pay for everybody to go to a YHF conference in Prescott so we can have group hugs, and we are going to give RTS a special big group hug! Drinks will be on ME!
I saw what you did there.
In other words, “they” are using implied threats, intimidation, cold stares, the threat of being ostracized from the “tribe” which is very, very, very powerful tool to maintain silence to get their way and there is nothing in writing based on any authority to do what they are doing. BUT it works very effectively. Which is why I think somebody should send me any anonymous letter to;
Gary Olson
700 Sleater Kinney RD SE,
STE B – 243
Lacey, WA, 98503
“I actually think we are at an impasse”
I agree completely and I think that has been the source of the fear, and thus the anger, and frustration that we have taken out on each other.
We can’t really go any further without information that we know is out there. And so there is a tendency to brow-beat whoever “we” think might have “access” to that information. As if that is going to incline anybody to share that information.
It is, indeed, frustrating.
Also, I find it frustrating to not know how to make what we do know (at the price of two plus years of this conversation and digging) more accessible, publicly, in a meaningful way.
Hasta, Gary.
I can see now your anger and my own by the way at why things at Yarnell were handled the way they were. The blinds and blinders where here as well. In our older wisdom we get angry when we see so many lives destroyed or wrongly altered, and I mean not only the 19 but those that are connected. Yet this whole thing was treated as a “God thing” so no one takes responsibility and we act like it was all a cruise and when the weather turned bad and the captain forgot to have enough lif-e boats on board and was too drunk to turn the ship into the waves and the ship turned over then it was God’s will that most of the people died. except that he got on the first life boat and survived.
This whole damn thing stinks to high heaven for sure, and if these people do not come forward and admit to the whole truth of the matter then they stink to high heaven as well. Being a miner and mucker and a bad mother fucker in my time a stinking mining job never let me deny the truth. I have quit more than one mine and even thrown a pipe wrench at one superintendent for his bull shit. I have taken my check when things were not right and trucked down the road to new and better options. Too many gutless people who fear the truth. Old Jack was right, I do get pissed when people can not handle the truth.
Reply to Joy A. Collura post on January 3, 2016 at 6:14 pm
>> Joy A. Collura said…
>>
>> for Gary Cordes to allow a media article to lay this claim — and also gain firefighter
>> of the year and all else tied to this— I think that reporter Anne Ryman who we know
>> should go back and show like we did a photo of Cordes and find out WHO REALLY
>> saved Smith then Pearl in a forestry truck— IT MATTERS!
Joy… long before Anne Ryman wrote that AZCENTRAL article… Gary Cordes had already made the claim in his own Unit Log AND in his testimony to ADOSH investigators about these TWO rescues he performed, saving TWO people each time ( for a total of FOUR people ).
From Gary Cordes’ handwritten Unit Log…
—————————————————————————-
1620 – Entered subdivision of Glen Ilah removing 4 stranded
elderly on several trips in and out. Turned over to ambulance for TX.
—————————————————————————-
In Gary Cordes’ ADOSH testimony on September 11, 2013, his account of these ‘rescues’ he says he performed begins on PDF page 37 of his interview transcript, starting with text line 1619.
NOTE: This is an ‘abridged’ version of his full testimony from that section of his transcript and it just ‘summarizes’ what he said he did, in his own words.
——————————————————–
( After the news about the deployment… ) I went in ( to the Glen Ilah subdivison ) and started scouting, I know the SO was in there, I believe Paul might’ve been in there as well, Paul Musser, but uh, many of us were drivin’ the roads in there just making sure people were getting out. We made contact with a large number of people who had various reasons why they were not going to evacuate.
** RESCUE 1 ( OF 2 )…
At one point I drove up Manzanita Trail uh, structures on both sides of the road were on fire and I saw an elderly couple walking down the road and there was almost zero visibility in there and, and uh, with the smoke laying in there 40 plus mile an hour winds and two elderly people holding hands walking out in their pajamas, and um, so I pulled up, they asked me to uh, if they could please get a ride and I told them to get in the vehicle very abruptly and uh, assisted the elderly woman into the vehicle and the elderly gentleman got in and, and I took them back out to the Ranch Restaurant um, dropped them off with the crews and I re-entered the subdivision.
** RESCUE 2 ( OF 2 )…
I back to north and decided to make one more run into the Manzanita area up in there. Came across a gentleman waving me down in the smoke, uh, told him to get into the vehicle… He informed me he had a, he had a uh, handicapped uh, disable neighbor, elderly woman who was – he was trying to carry her out and he couldn’t, uh, he was unable to carry her any farther. I asked him where she was, he pointed uh, on a road that was fairly unattainable, all of the structures on the north side were on fire. So I made an attempt to go down that road and uh, he advised me to be careful so I wouldn’t run her over. She was in the road, and she was. I picked her up, got her into the vehicle… got her over, put her in an ambulance at the uh, back at the Ranch Restaurant.
——————————————————–
So that’s it for Gary Cordes’ ADOSH testimony regarding any ‘rescues’ he performed, and the FOUR people he rescued… for which he would eventually receive that Arizona Wildfire Academy “Firefighter of the Year” award.
Just the TWO rescues… and TWO people both times.
And he was making this claim in BOTH his (signed) Unit Log and in his ADOSH testimony.
The FIRST ‘story’ seems to match the reports of Bob and Ruth Hart ( both in their 90’s ) getting ‘stuck’ out on Manzanita Drive when their Honda Ridgeline truck got ‘hung up’ in a culvert and they had to exit the vehicle and start ‘walking out’ holding hands and dressed only in their pajamas.
AZCENTRAL also reported about this FIRST ‘rescue’ that Cordes was describing to ADOSH and they are the ones who first reported that it was most likely Bob and Ruth Hart.
AZCENTRAL
Article Title: Mystery man lauded for rescues during Yarnell Hill fire
Published: 7:36 a.m. EDT March 31, 2014 by Anne Ryman
http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2014/03/31/mystery-man-rescued-residents-yarnell-hill-fire/7104773/
From that article…
————————————————————
Cordes, who was in a designated safety zone near the restaurant, decided to drive into Glen Ilah to warn people sometime after 4:20 p.m.
He encountered an elderly couple walking down Manzanita Drive, holding hands and dressed in pajamas. A friend of the couple believes this was Bob and Ruth Hart. The Harts declined to be interviewed. But they toldtheir close friend Richard Harris, who lives in Peeples Valley