Please begin Yarnell Hill Chapter XXI here

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Chapter I, Chapter II, Chapter II supplement, Chapter III, Chapter IV, Chapter V, Chapter VI, Chapter VII, Chapter VIII , Chapter IX,  Chapter X, Chapter XI, Chapter XII , Chapter XIII, Chapter XIV,  Chapter XV,  Chapter XVI, Chapter XVII, Chapter XVIII, Chapter XIX and Chapter XX.

© Copyright 2016 John Dougherty, All rights Reserved. Written For: Investigative MEDIA

Comments

  1. Gary Olson says

    Well…many of you have certainly busy little bloggers or…whatever. Where to even start? OMG!

    I have so many questions and so little patience.

    I’m sorry…but I do have to start with this one. The Eric Marsh Foundation for Wildland Firefighters now has an OFFICE?

    What comes next…an Andreas Lubitz Foundation for Airline Passengers?

    Yes…I know, that one WAS over the line. I did say I identify with Mr. Marsh and no matter how hard I try…I can’t even begin to identify with Mr. Lubitz. I have never been interested (even a little bit) in being a pilot.

    As Otis likes to quote, “THE GODDAMN PLANE HAS [WAS} CRASHED INTO THE MOUNTAIN!” (The Big Lebowski).

    • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

      Fernanda Santos again.
      That article is almost MORE about the recent Ft. McMurray Wildfire ( Alberta, Canada ) than it is about Yarnell.

  2. Joy A. Collura says

    YARNELL- Captain Kristee Lewis as I was sliding down a boulder approached me and said people were wondering who was on the Mountain top taking photos and I replied she of all people should of known it was Joy- who else on an extreme hot day goes out on the mountain- remember June 30th- I do. She asked me as I locked Sonny’s gate what I am afraid of coming in and I replied you ever seen his surveillance cameras you would not ask that—mountain lions don’t listen to the signs and fence but that ain’t my worries- I kept walking because I up there for hours with no water…she looked good- she said she lost 45 pounds…it shows—I am passing a stone so going down the boulders in extreme flank pain I was not into anymore dialect but I can tell you this I saw and heard everything—I heard a woman say this is a horrible city- and another said who ever organized this race to keep seeing the same houses or burnt not rebuilt houses is boring. Another said where did the men die and a person pointed wrong and I hid in the boulders and said where and they looked everywhere for me and said “did you hear that”…”it sounded like the men spoke”…the other said “yeah that was creepy” than another said what is investigative media ???? and TOO MANY said after the race they were driving back to get photos of this INVESTIGATIVE MEDIA property and probably 18 said “that is the hiker” as they pointed Sonny out when he was doing irrigation and working on his Harley Davidson. Two of the Amanda Marsh’s new tshirt blonde girls pass by twice and looked his way but that was it…Only saw 2 tshirts of Amanda’s new logo grey tees from the run and saw about 5 blue Esse GMHS phrase…than I really enjoyed the neon shirt tribe ladies as they were having such a blast…Many did not run all the way but I could see them on all the streets from certain boulder views and there was a few that ran the complete time. My top memory was watching a father teach his teen son how to pace himself and he was so good in his coaching- Than Leigh Tidey passes by with another with Chuck Tidey way behind with Mike Manone. The kids seem to learn to “cheat” and not use the whole designated path and some look too overheated and need to be there— and the water kids below me kept peaking up and that is when cops came and the captain of fire dept said what she did but guess what I can be taken photos—it is a public event—plus I had quite a few ask where their pics will be and I said GO TO INVESTIGATIVE MEDIA chapter 21 and I will have a link there and enjoy-
    I wore my INVESTIGATIVE MEDIA tshirt I custom made and I was totally there as the IM cheerleader—I do not care of some hate and view this site the way they do but I will keep asking and digging and getting information out in regards to YHF.

  3. Joy A. Collura says

    MOUNTAIN TOP VIEWS:

    https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BwFOoxbwj-rFVTB3NWJ2bXlxbjQ/view?usp=sharing
    https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BwFOoxbwj-rFMFBPMVBib01MU2c/view?usp=sharing
    https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BwFOoxbwj-rFVm4zZ2ZMSXhqbFU/view?usp=sharing
    https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BwFOoxbwj-rFWnR4LU5KdjNKa1k/view?usp=sharing
    https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BwFOoxbwj-rFWGh2eHZ2Q1h2Szg/view?usp=sharing
    https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BwFOoxbwj-rFNHFWWFZrZ0lvM1U/view?usp=sharing
    https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BwFOoxbwj-rFeXdDSTNHQTdpQkk/view?usp=sharing
    https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BwFOoxbwj-rFaERvcEVSaWN2bEk/view?usp=sharing
    https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BwFOoxbwj-rFS0JtU1R4bjVwaVk/view?usp=sharing
    https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BwFOoxbwj-rFbDFpZS16N3RSemc/view?usp=sharing
    https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BwFOoxbwj-rFVFlKUzVnWkFsRDg/view?usp=sharing
    https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BwFOoxbwj-rFOWZVWHNoR29wbHc/view?usp=sharing
    https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BwFOoxbwj-rFZ2t4SVhqa3l5RVk/view?usp=sharing
    https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BwFOoxbwj-rFZWhwWFRLVG5CMkE/view?usp=sharing
    https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BwFOoxbwj-rFU0MxdnhVdmgxY1k/view?usp=sharing
    https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BwFOoxbwj-rFbE55Y3FydTQ1a3c/view?usp=sharing
    https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BwFOoxbwj-rFZUU1elFOYk15Qk0/view?usp=sharing
    https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BwFOoxbwj-rFNE5JNVl2SlNZa00/view?usp=sharing
    https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BwFOoxbwj-rFVVlRazVVM2JMVjQ/view?usp=sharing
    https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BwFOoxbwj-rFR0Zib0RkbVBrNlE/view?usp=sharing
    https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BwFOoxbwj-rFeDBRMW5mYlpWOG8/view?usp=sharing
    https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BwFOoxbwj-rFNHZWNTBNeHhjbE0/view?usp=sharing
    https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BwFOoxbwj-rFTXNfZGtNODZQM1k/view?usp=sharing
    https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BwFOoxbwj-rFVmpZV0pHT04wV28/view?usp=sharing
    https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BwFOoxbwj-rFRHBXMlRPajZWVFU/view?usp=sharing
    https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BwFOoxbwj-rFSHZuaUxoSFBZU1U/view?usp=sharing
    https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BwFOoxbwj-rFb2lYQ2RnVmdKXzg/view?usp=sharing
    https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BwFOoxbwj-rFMXdPUDE0SjdoUk0/view?usp=sharing
    https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BwFOoxbwj-rFSmlyc1h2MWVIUTg/view?usp=sharing
    https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BwFOoxbwj-rFbE1jd2NfVUJLR0E/view?usp=sharing
    https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BwFOoxbwj-rFb1hVSzlBOHowMTQ/view?usp=sharing
    https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BwFOoxbwj-rFcFZCU2hUbW8zY00/view?usp=sharing
    https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BwFOoxbwj-rFV0ZpOEhMRXRvWjA/view?usp=sharing
    https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BwFOoxbwj-rFbXFPRzJMQXp4RGc/view?usp=sharing
    https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BwFOoxbwj-rFdXN6RHcwODRiTGM/view?usp=sharing
    https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BwFOoxbwj-rFZWFMYXdBN0l6S2s/view?usp=sharing
    https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BwFOoxbwj-rFdElNcXJFdlNMRWM/view?usp=sharing
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    https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BwFOoxbwj-rFc3haLWRYTGF0YWs/view?usp=sharing
    https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BwFOoxbwj-rFclZ4enhIUzVUem8/view?usp=sharing
    https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BwFOoxbwj-rFLWJpb3Vkci03aXc/view?usp=sharing
    https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BwFOoxbwj-rFcmtFZlg3ZHE2WUk/view?usp=sharing
    https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BwFOoxbwj-rFelBNUjlDTGJELVk/view?usp=sharing
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    https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BwFOoxbwj-rFanhYU0J1MnJpeGc/view?usp=sharing
    https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BwFOoxbwj-rFX0p6a2FzZm9tNTQ/view?usp=sharing
    https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BwFOoxbwj-rFc0N3WjhQX1RzcEU/view?usp=sharing
    https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BwFOoxbwj-rFd3JhYTZVYUxKeVE/view?usp=sharing
    https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BwFOoxbwj-rFUW5VVlpESXFJdDg/view?usp=sharing
    https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BwFOoxbwj-rFUmUzNGFISzhNdnc/view?usp=sharing
    https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BwFOoxbwj-rFZzYxZVJKUUwxVGc/view?usp=sharing
    https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BwFOoxbwj-rFT3FJMkNSMFBXemc/view?usp=sharing
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    https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BwFOoxbwj-rFdWtoVmQyRkpsT2c/view?usp=sharing
    https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BwFOoxbwj-rFdkVPRmRTQ0VFNms/view?usp=sharing
    https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BwFOoxbwj-rFVTdqNXo5bmJKZGM/view?usp=sharing
    https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BwFOoxbwj-rFaGdSUl9IVUI1ekk/view?usp=sharing
    https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BwFOoxbwj-rFdkdSTDNGZG9UdFE/view?usp=sharing
    https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BwFOoxbwj-rFeGhZTnVoYTZ5Z0k/view?usp=sharing
    https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BwFOoxbwj-rFbnJnLVdIZ1NnbHM/view?usp=sharing
    https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BwFOoxbwj-rFejQ1OHpUejlwOWM/view?usp=sharing
    https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BwFOoxbwj-rFYXFFcG1IVy11RU0/view?usp=sharing
    https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BwFOoxbwj-rFVW9kNHVIQk95WWs/view?usp=sharing
    https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BwFOoxbwj-rFNHE0MktBYlNDR0E/view?usp=sharing
    https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BwFOoxbwj-rFVk1LNFVuYkhBV3c/view?usp=sharing
    https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BwFOoxbwj-rFLVRQcUN0TzZlMGs/view?usp=sharing
    https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BwFOoxbwj-rFZE1WZFZra1Jjc0E/view?usp=sharing
    https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BwFOoxbwj-rFMnhVYno5Q0tBaGM/view?usp=sharing
    https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BwFOoxbwj-rFNlV0SFVYazZxdWc/view?usp=sharing
    https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BwFOoxbwj-rFbmFkQm1mLWRoaFU/view?usp=sharing

  4. Bob Powers says

    I see on Safety Matters that Holly has decided that my comments are counter productive to her agenda and took them all off in fact I can not get on that Blog to comment any more.

    All I can say is it has become different than what it was intended to be.

    All I did was ask specific questions that she would not answer.

    Holly you are still a wantabe in my book.

    • Woodsman says

      Bob,

      I read what you wrote before it was (apparently – I haven’t verified) taken down. All you did was offer good questions and more of the story. Good to know that other viewpoints are apparently not accepted there. There were at least 2 other ff that had very good counterpoints to the ‘agenda’ as well. I wonder if they were censored? Shucks. Even ol’ Maclean himself chimed in that it was a good discussion.

      Truth hurts…and she’s got her work cut out for her defending her positions. In fact, she has put almost all of her eggs in the basket that Marsh was a CRWB and NOT a DIVS at Horseshoe 2. We already have a post that IM that I believe is stating that he WAS an actual DIVS that day. Now if that proves to be truth then – Oops!

      I read through a lot more of the ‘stories’ and comments and noticed another little tibbit: Elizabeth Nolwicki (sp?)said that the rules of wildland firefighting were ‘horatory.’ Ha! You gotta love the wordsmiths.

      Horatory: “The definition of hortatory is a person or thing that pleads or strongly requests someone to take a particular action.”

      20 hrs ago, Mr Hicks of Adosh posted this (in case it gets taken down)

      “Barry Hicks I want to remind folks that there were two investigations with different results. I was a member of the ADOSH investigation team and I know what our limitations were but I am still learning of information that was withheld from us not the least of which Mike Dudley knew about and failed to share with us. There are a number of questions that remain and will take years to learn as long as the FS refuses to let all the information be shared openly. I would hope that the FS would change its approach and allow all their employees to talk openly without threat of retaliation. I know that both investigations had flaws but I do think the ADOSH investigation could have been more successful had they not been legally limited to 6 months to file their report.”

      He said “information was withheld from us.” Is that lawful?

      One of my favorite posts there in that thread by Mr. Jared Judd:

      “Jared Judd “Was part of the reason (for failure) being the delay caused by refusal??”

      Hughes says “probably”.
      IMO Hughes’ “probably” is as much opinionated and political/liability induced conjecture as any other part of this story. Why not ask the question: was over aggressive tactics, despite the refusal of highly qualified crews, part of the reason for failure??
      What assets at risk caused the decision to attempt such time-sensitive and aggressive tactics in the first place? I/E did the ever opinionated IC have justification for the wasted and possibly unsafe suppression attempt??”

      In fact, it’s so insightful that I wish Mr. Judd would join in the discussion here as well.

      Woodsman

      • Bob Powers says

        I went in before I posted and all I could do was read the info no location to input I have been on there since it was created. Oh Well.

        Yes Jared Judd is well informed I have read some of his statements over the years.

        • Bob Powers says

          Some one should ask Holly who exactly was the DIVS if it was not Marsh.

          That peace of information I have been waiting for as well.

          Actually posting the Official written Turn Downs would show why the Crews were not agreeing with the assignment. Who was asking them to do it Etc.

          • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

            Reply to Bob Powers post on June 4, 2016 at 3:46 pm

            >> Bob Powers said…
            >>
            >> Some one should ask Holly who exactly was the DIVS
            >> if it was not Marsh.

            Exactly.

            >> Bob Powers also said…
            >>
            >> That peace of information I have been waiting for as well.
            >>
            >> Actually posting the Official written Turn Downs would
            >> show why the Crews were not agreeing with the
            >> assignment.

            You bet… and something tells me THAT is part of the WRITTEN DOCUMENTATION that former Gernomi Hotshot Superintendent was actually offering Mike Dudley and the SAIT, back in that first week of August, 2013.

            That’s the DOCUMENTATION that Mike Dudley didn’t WANT to see.

            >> Bob Powers also said…
            >>
            >> Who was asking them to do it Etc.

            What Holly Neill doesn’t seem to realize is that whether or not Eric Marsh was ( or wasn’t ) officially a DIVS at that time… even her own research doesn’t dispute the fact that it was Eric Marsh ASKING the other Type 1 Supts. to do something… and those Supts. decided it was WAAAAY to unsafe… too risky… at that time… and they said “No way”.

            So the fundamental ‘story’ doesn’t really change regardless of whether Marsh was a DIVS or just a CRWB at that time.

            The ‘risky assignment’ still seemed to be coming from HIS MOUTH.

            Also… don’t forget that if you just look at the ‘Resource Records’ for a fire… that doesn’t tell you who anyone really was at any particular time.

            Even if all you had to go on for Yarnell were the ‘Resource Records’… all they will tell you is that Eric Marsh was there in Yarnell as a STCR ( Strike Team Leader, Crew ).

            You would never be able to tell from just the Resource Records that Eric Marsh really had become ‘Division A’ at 10:30 AM that Sunday, when the fire officially transitioned to Roy Hall’s Type 2 SHORT team.

    • Joy A. Collura says

      Barry Hicks I want to remind folks that there were two investigations with different results. I was a member of the ADOSH investigation team and I know what our limitations were but I am still learning of information that was withheld from us not the least of which Mike Dudley knew about and failed to share with us. There are a number of questions that remain and will take years to learn as long as the FS refuses to let all the information be shared openly. I would hope that the FS would change its approach and allow all their employees to talk openly without threat of retaliation. I know that both investigations had flaws but I do think the ADOSH investigation could have been more successful had they not been legally limited to 6 months to file their report.
      https://www.facebook.com/SafetyMattersWildlandFirefighterForum/

      you are right Bob-
      wow.
      your comment vanished

        • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

          Do you think Holly Neill is actually telling John Maclean that she is just throwing any comments she doesn’t LIKE ‘on the floor’?

          I’m beginning to worry about this John Maclean guy.

          I wonder if he is actually fully aware of what Holly Neill’s own agenda is?

          I imagine he will continue to defend her since he has already ‘hitched his wagon’ to her… and she is already known as one of his prime researchers for his book on the Yarnell Hill Fire.

          If he ever has to back-away from her… then he’s putting a lot of his own ‘research’ information on the ‘questionable’ shelf as well.

  5. Joy A. Collura says

    The Truth Will Always Remain Elusive says
    MAY 25, 2016 AT 2:06 PM

    Crystal was likely overwhelmed by the onslaught of comments directed at her following her initial comment. I would like to think that all of that didn’t scare her off from further comment, but in actuality, I think it did.

    Reply
    WantsToKnowTheTruth says
    MAY 25, 2016 AT 3:49 PM

    Wait for it.

    Reply
    The Truth Will Always Remain Elusive says
    MAY 25, 2016 AT 8:29 PM

    I hope I’m wrong.

    Reply
    WantsToKnowTheTruth says
    MAY 25, 2016 AT 8:43 PM

    Seriously… wait for it.

    Reply

    MY REPLY: CRYSTAL WAS NEVER GOING TO COME FORWARD—SEEN THIS IN PERSON BEHIND THE SCENES TOO MUCH—FREAKING TEASERS—THEY ARE TOO COWARD TO DO IT OTHERWISE THEY WOULD NOT WAIT THREE YEARS TO COME FORWARD AND JUST GIVE A TINY TIDBIT— SERIOUS!

    • Joy A. Collura says

      http://yarnellmemorialrun.com/

      GENERAL INFORMATION & RACE RULES

      Cancellations:
      Entry fees are NON-REFUNDABLE and NON-TRANSFERABLE.
      Rules:

      All runners must be at least 15 years old to participate in the 10K, and 19K—SAW VERY YOUNG KIDS WITH A NUMBER???
      All runners must be in good health and physically prepared to take on the challenge of the race. I SAW SOME WAY OUT OF SHAPE FOLKS OUT THERE?
      All runners must show photo ID to receive a race packet.
      If, due to age, the runner does not have a photo ID, a legal parent or legal guardian must verify runner’s information. I DID ENJOY ALOT A FATHER TEACHING HIS SON HOW TO PACE HIMSELF FOR THE RACE- THAT WAS A COOL DAD!
      All runners must pick up your own race packet on race day.
      Race numbers are required in order to participate and must be worn on the outside of clothing and visible.
      No coaches WELL DAD 🙂 , handcycles, bikes, in-line skates, skateboards, roller states, or any type of running assistance is allowed.
      Runners must enter the starting gate at least ten minutes prior to the start.
      No alcohol, tobacco, illegal substances, performance enhancing substances of any kind will be allowed. BUT MANY ON CELL PHONES OR TOOK PICS OF SONNY’S INVESTIGATIVE MEDIA PROPERTY AND MIGHT OF SCREWED THEIR OVERALL TIMES TO WIN ANYTHING
      No compensation of any type will be paid if your picture is taken and used by the committee.OR ME.
      If you consider yourself to have a disability please contact the Race Director/committee to discuss your entry prior to filling out your application. Under no circumstance will accommodations be made at the last minute.
      Medical team members have the authority to disqualify any runner they consider to be acting dangerously or to be unfit to compete.
      Course Time Limits – To ensure that roads reopens to vehicular traffic at the scheduled times, the course time limits will be STRICTLY ENFORCED. Once the 11am time limit has been reached, all remaining runners on the course will be instructed to use the sidewalks and /or road side from that point on.
      In the event of any dispute the decision of the Race Director(s) and/or committee shall be final.
      Absolutely no early starters are allowed on the race course.
      Toilets and hydrastations will be located at selected mile markers with adequate signage.

    • Joy A. Collura says

      my reply to Tired of Bickering below in CAPS:

      Tired of Bickering says
      MAY 29, 2016 AT 11:56 PM

      This thread of comments does seem to offer some sort of insight into the deadly day almost three years ago.THAN YOU HAVE NOT READ IT FROM DAY ONE UNTIL NOW AND ARE JUST ONE OF THE INFAMOUS POP-INS BECAUSE IT IS THIS SITE THAT HAS GIVEN THE yhf MUCH MORE CLARITY THAN ANY OTHER AREA OUT THERE PUBLIC- Unfortunately, it deteriorates into an opinion and emotionally driven piece of finger pointing NOT SO MUCH AS DISCUSSIONS OF DIVERSE OPINIONS AND I AM GLAD THESE PEOPLE TEE IT UP VERSUS THE COWARDS AT HOME THAT DO NOT-=—that is more destructive than constructive. YOUR OPINION—Opinion driven pieces of inflammatory “this one time I saw or felt”, does not address the facts of the day or the culture of coverup that many of you seem to associate with the responding agencies in question.OBVIOUS A POP-IN— 82 comments thus far and most of them are from the same individuals arguing with each other,I RATHER SEE AN ARGUMENT TO WORK IT THROUGH THAN KEEP ONE’S MOUTH SHUT AND BE A COWARD— It makes a reader wonder if any of you really want resolution and discovery regarding this tragedy or if you are simply vested in proving the previous commenter wrong.THAT’S A BULLSHIT-

      A suggestion,
      Offer a report of your own, with the information that is provided in all of these comments. Why would anybody who is unfamiliar with what happened read the narrative offered and the subsequent comments and draw any conclusion other than a bunch of angry people screaming at each other that claim to want truth from these events.WELL IT TAKES ARGUMENT TO GET SOMEWHERE SOMETIMES— Presenting a logical alternative that is absent of finger pointing is the most beneficial apparatus to achieve the learning most of you seem to say you are after.GO CRAWL BACK IN YOUR HOLE BECAUSE YOU DID NOT COME HERE AND SAY . HI AM SO AND SO AND I HAVE BEEN A LONG TIME READER OF THE SITE AND….IF YOU JUST DROP BY THAN YOU AIN’T GOING TO GET IT—

      Reply

      http://www.investigativemedia.com/forest-service-ignored-information-from-hotshot-leaders-about-granite-mountains-history-of-bad-decisions/

  6. WantsToKnowTheTruth says

    Reply to Joy A. Collura post on June 4, 2016 at 6:38 am

    >> Joy A. Collura said…
    >>
    >> It’s on imdb. Look at jennifer connelly page
    >> I saw it online

    Thank you, Joy. Yes… this ‘Yarnell’ movie thing has now officially come onto the ‘radar’ up at IMDB and now has its own IMDB page.

    http://m.imdb.com/title/tt3829920/

    And I guess the TITLE CHANGE is ‘official’ now.

    The TITLE of the new Kosinski Movie really does look like it’s been changed from “No Exit” to just “Granite Mountain”.

    There are now actually TWO cast members whose ROLES are also being listed with their names. Some of the rest of the actors can be assumed to be playing certain people, but there has still been no official confirmation…

    Josh Brolin = ( Assumed ) Eric Marsh?
    Miles Teller = ( Assumed ) Jesse Steed?
    Jeff Bridges = Unknown. Possible Darell Willis or Gary Cordes.
    Taylor Kitsch = Unknown. A Hotshot?
    James Badge Dale = Unknown. A Hotshot?

    Jennifer Connelly = Amanda Marsh

    Scott Haze = Whitted

    Scott Haze is the one who just recently played the character ‘Levi’ in the movie ‘Midnight Special’.

    There is now also THIS ( on the official IMDB page )…

    —————————————————————
    The TRUE STORY of the Fallen 19 Firefighters of the Granite Mountain
    Hot Shots Crew from Prescott Arizona.
    —————————————————————

    How long, do ya think, before someone clues them in about the ‘Hot Shots’ spelling thing? Hopefully before the movie actually comes out?

    As for “The TRUE STORY” part… unless they have abandoned the original GQ “No Exit” article as the basis for the script… then there is not a chance in hell.

  7. WantsToKnowTheTruth says

    **
    ** BRENDAN MCDONOUGH IS NOW A NEW ‘HOLD FAST’
    ** MOTIVATIONAL SPEAKER

    >> Reply to Joy A. Collura post on June 3, 2016 at 9:17 pm
    >>
    >> Joy A. Collura posted a link…
    >>
    >> https://youtu.be/wst5TjTRvTM

    Brendan McDonough is now ‘onboard’ as one of the official speakers for a motivational company/organization known as ‘HoldFast’.

    Brendan McDonough: HoldFast
    Published on May 20, 2016.
    YouTube video…
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wst5TjTRvTM&feature=youtu.be

    Video Caption…
    HoldFast Speakers and Programs are tailored to grow your organization’s leadership
    and improve employee culture. Find out more at www (dot) holdfasthq (dot) com.

    From the HOME ( banner ) page of this ‘Hold Fast’ organization…
    ———————————————————————————
    HOLD FAST
    We empower veterans to change lives
    Our programs and presenters inspire and empower leaders to improve
    your organization’s culture, improve employee engagement, and increase profitability.
    HoldFast works with inspirational speakers that bring our Proven Programs to life at your event.
    Recent Clients…
    Vineyard Vines, Coca Cola, Jeffries, La Quinta Inns and Suites,
    Chase Bank, The NFL, Instrumentation Laboratory ( a Werfen Company ),
    Jack Links ( Sausages ), Compeat Restaurant Management Systems,
    The Ben E. Keith Company – Food Service Distributors, The NCAA, etc.
    ———————————————————————————

    Transcript of this ‘Hold Fast’ promotional video…

    NOTE: So the WINDS are now up to SIXTY MILES PER HOUR, eh?

    Brendan is ‘catching on’. Drama sells. It really does.

    Sole speaker = Brendan McDonough
    ————————————————————————————–
    The winds were 60 miles an hour… and the fire had made a 180 degree shift,
    and what shoulda happened in 2 hours happened in 5 minutes.

    My name is Brendan McDonough… and living in Northern Arizona, a huge part
    of what we live with during the summer is wildfires.

    It brought so much peace to my life to be able to fight fire. It brought purpose.

    Not as a individual… but as a team… as a crew… as a TRIBE.

    On June 30th, 2013, me and my 19 brothers were called to Yarnell to battle
    a wildfire.

    Throughout the day… I was moved to be the lookout to watch over my crew and
    to inform them on the behavior and the weather.

    During that time the fire had started to shift… and the fire had moved with…
    ya know… great verocity… and they were overrun.

    And… uh.. 19 men perished that day.

    For me… after the tragedy… trying to conquer my battle with depression and PTSD,
    there was no way I could beat this on my own. I needed to reach out for help.

    I needed to rebuild my TRIBE.

    I lost 19 men… but every one of those men had taught me more than just firefighting.

    That sense of brotherhood and being a part of a TRIBE is beyond firefighting.
    It’s within our communities. It’s within the businesses that we work for.. and for
    me to have this opportunity to be able to speak about them gives me joy… to
    carry on their legacy.
    ——————————————————————————————–

    • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

      For the record… I am still VERY concerned about Brendan McDonough’s mental and emotional health. I surely hope people that care for him are watching him very carefully.

      I hope he’s not just continually re-arranging deck chairs on the Titanic… if you catch my drift.

        • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

          If you say so.

          I can show you online information that says it’s all a crock of shit… but what’s the point.

          WHATEVER help he is getting… I hope it’s good… and I hope it’s ENOUGH.

          The guy still worries me.

          Does he REALLY intend to make a CAREER out being a VICTIM?

          • Robert the Second says

            WTKTT,

            Posted in Tucsonnewsnow.com, Yarnell Hill Fire survivor: ‘It’s a tough life to live’ Monday, May 2nd 2016

            “He [Brendan McDonough] said EMDR (Eye Movement Desensitization and Reprocessing) therapy has worked well for him. The therapy has helped to treat his trauma and psychological stress.

            “I think it’s going to be a lifelong journey of dealing with these triggers and anxiety and PTSD,” McDonough said. “It’s something I’m looking more into and become educated because it’s a part of me now.”

            http://www.tucsonnewsnow.com/story/31868224/yarnell-hill-fire-survivor-its-a-tough-life-to-live

            From the Arizona Trauma Recovery Network
            http://www.mrcnaccho.org/arizona-trauma-recovery-network-aztrn-aztrn-coordinated-community-response-licensed-mental-health

            (From a client): “EMDR has been life changing for me. I am a survivor of the Yarnell Hill fire in Arizona. Prior to EMDR and the Arizona Trauma Recovery Network, my ability to function was quite low because I was being triggered by things which reminded me of the tragedy. Now I am able to live a somewhat normal life. I am so grateful to my EMDR therapist.”

            http://www.mrcnaccho.org/arizona-trauma-recovery-network-aztrn-aztrn-coordinated-community-response-licensed-mental-health

            Also from the article, one of the victims of a Tucson shooting incident claimed EMDR was successful.

            “Ron credits EMDR therapy with helping him move forward in his life and his ability to continue to be available to his family and the community. One of Ron’s daughters, and one of his granddaughters, was also present and spoke about their own experience of recovery from the trauma. Additionally, a law enforcement officer, James Brady, poignantly shared about his recovery from a critical incident with the use of EMDR therapy.”

            I’ve talked to YH Fire survivors, including GMHS family, friends, and loved ones, and they say it works, they don’t know how, only that it works.

            And my favorite YouTube 20/20 segment of EMDR that provides a very informative overview.

            “No one understands exactly why this method succeeds, only that it does” says the narrator.

            https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GTLLfdcJE0Q

            There is a lot more online evidence that shows that it works compared to not working.

            McDonough does seem to be on an odyssey of victim-hood with lots of encouragement, and I allege it includes spreading lies about what really happened and why.

  8. WantsToKnowTheTruth says

    **
    ** ACTRESS JENNIFER CONNELLY TO PLAY ROLE OF AMANDA MARSH
    ** IN THE UPCOMING KOSINSKI-DIRECTED YARNELL FILM

    Reply to Joy A. Collura post on June 3, 2016 at 9:32 pm

    >> Joy A. Collura said…
    >>
    >> Look what actress plays Amanda Marsh

    http://deadline.com/2016/06/jennifer-connelly-granite-mountain-hotshot-movie-no-exit-1201766808/

    From the article…
    ——————————————————————————–
    EXCLUSIVE: Jennifer Connelly is joining Josh Brolin, Miles Teller, Jeff Bridges and Taylor Kitsch in Granite Mountain (previously titled No Exit), the feature film based on the 20-member Granite Mountain Hotshots who fought the deadliest wildfire ever in Arizona’s history and were trapped on a mountainside in a circle of fire. The story of these true American heroes — 19 of whom died while trying to protect the lives of others — was written by Ken Nolan and Eric Warren Singer and will be directed by Joe Kosinski (Oblivion).

    Connelly is set to play the role of Amanda Marsh, the wife and “horse-whispering farrier” of the supervisor of the Tier One team of Hotshots.

    It’s known that in drafting the story, the filmmakers spoke to the lone surviving member of the 20-man crew, Brendan McDonough.

    Connelly, who won a Best Supporting Actress Oscar for A Beautiful Mind, is repped by CAA and RMS Productions.
    ——————————————————————————–

    Notice that ( according to THIS ) article… the NEW title for the movie is
    now simply…

    “Granite Mountain” ( instead of the former title “No Exit” ).

    So far… of the list of ‘names’ signed up for the movie… the Jennifer Connelly announcement contains the only ‘confirmation’ about which PART is assigned to which actor…

    Jennifer Connelly = Amanda Marsh

    There is no IMDB page for the movie yet, and none of the other PARTS that any of the other ‘committed’ actors will be playing have been ‘officially’ announced… but the following is ‘assumed’…

    Josh Brolin = ( Assumed ) Eric Marsh
    Miles Teller = ( Assumed ) Jesse Steed
    Jeff Bridges = Unknown… but probably either Darrell Willis or Gary Cordes.
    Taylor Kitsch = Unknown… but could be playing Brendan McDonough

    This is all being ‘brought to you by’ Conde Naste productions, who have found a niche in running articles in their magazines and then turning them into movies.

    The script for this ‘Yarnell’ thing follows the same ‘Conde Naste’ pattern and is ( supposedly ) based on the article called “No Exit” that they ran in their ‘GQ’ magazine affiliate some time ago.

    So even though they have changed the movie title from “No Exit” to ( supposedly ) just “Granite Mountain”… if the script is still based on that original “No Exit” article then we know what the movie will look like.

    In other words… specially painted American Flag popcorn boxes will be sold at all the concession stands when this movie opens.

    The ‘blurb’ that keeps appearing with these movie articles keeps changing… and lookee here what they are NOW saying the movie is ‘about’…

    ———————————————————————————-
    The logline: “Always a Tier Two team cleaning up after the elite Tier One ‘Hotshots’ who follow the wildfires during the season, the Prescott Wildland Firefighters – under the tireless training and perfectionism of their Supervisor Eric Marsh – become the first Municipal firemen to become Tier One themselves. A tight family of twenty, they’re the lead when lightning ignites the dry tinder on the hills beyond Yarnell. When a storm moves in and the wind shifts, the fire reverses course and picks up incredible speed. By luck, one of the young Hotshots, Brendan makes it out… but Eric and the other nineteen members of the Granite Mountain Hotshots tragically perish.”
    ———————————————————————————-

    Soooo… apparently Eric Marsh got tired of always just having to clean the port-a-potties for the Type 1 Hotshot Crews… and nothing would do that he use his ‘perfectionism’ to move himself and the people working for him up the ‘show’ at the ‘next level’.

    Yea… right… that’s the ticket.

    And “They’re the lead when lightning strikes…”

    Really?

    If they actually HAD been “the lead” when “lightning struck” ( on Friday )… there would be no movie and Brolin and the others would be free to do more Marvel Comic sequels.

    Oh… forgot to mention…

    The popcorn boxes with the American Flags printed on them that will be available at all the concession stands will also have the following ‘disclaimer’ printed in fine-print on the bottom of the boxes…

    “Management would like to inform you that if you came to see a movie that has more ‘truth’ and ‘accuracy’ in it than this one… we suggest you go next door and catch the new release of “Finding Nemo – Part 4′”

        • Joy A. Collura says

          Above I wrote

          In this links it shows Amanda in list…Darn cell…speaking of Amanda her fundraising race event is about to pass Sonnys investigative media property and ptsd dog…locals said they went prior years when it was five bucks but now it’s twenty..and one said they have millions and I still have no home…nor help. Now that is sad that the.cronies think they know the locals needs

      • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

        Reply to Joy A. Collura post on June 4, 2016 at 6:38 am

        >> Joy A. Collura said…
        >>
        >> It’s on imdb. Look at jennifer connelly page
        >> I saw it online

        Thank you, Joy. Yes… this ‘Yarnell’ movie thing has now officially come onto the ‘radar’ up at IMDB and now has its own IMDB page.

        http://m.imdb.com/title/tt3829920/

        And I guess the TITLE CHANGE is ‘official’ now.

        The TITLE of the new Kosinski Movie really does look like it’s been changed from “No Exit” to just “Granite Mountain”.

        There are now actually TWO cast members whose ROLES are also being listed with their names. Some of the rest of the actors can be assumed to be playing certain people, but there has still been no official confirmation…

        Josh Brolin = ( Assumed ) Eric Marsh?
        Miles Teller = ( Assumed ) Jesse Steed?
        Jeff Bridges = Unknown. Possible Darell Willis or Gary Cordes.
        Taylor Kitsch = Unknown. A Hotshot?
        James Badge Dale = Unknown. A Hotshot?

        Jennifer Connelly = Amanda Marsh

        Scott Haze = Whitted

        Scott Haze is the one who just recently played the character ‘Levi’ in the movie ‘Midnight Special’.

        There is now also THIS ( on the official IMDB page )…

        —————————————————————
        The TRUE STORY of the Fallen 19 Firefighters of the Granite Mountain
        Hot Shots Crew from Prescott Arizona.

        —————————————————————

        How long, do ya think, before someone clues them in about the ‘Hot Shots’ spelling thing? Hopefully before the movie actually comes out?

        As for “The TRUE STORY” part… unless they have abandoned the original GQ “No Exit” article as the basis for the script… then there is not a chance in hell.

  9. Joy A. Collura says

    Happy Belated 73rd Birthday John Mac Lean-

    (candles lit on a fancy birthday cake)

    whoosh…candles out!

    woohoo

            • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

              Reply to Joy A. Collura post on June 3, 2016 at 10:35 pm

              >> Joy A. Collura posted a link…
              >>
              >> http://www.watertreehealth.com/2014/01/one-person-inspires-action/

              Thank you, Joy.

              Yep… JP Vicente and Ray Maione… pickin’ up another $18,000 check….

              ————————————————————–
              It would have been easy to simply collect the monies, totaling $18,000, and end the effort by sending a check to the firefighters fund. A feel good act in deed, and something that all employees of Watertree Health would have been proud of, especially as it was nearing the Christmas season and the end of the year. But the thought among Watertree Health’s senior officers, including McKiernan, was that the gesture would mean more, if a personal visit to Prescott could be arranged as a show of respect to the community and its loss.

              Ray Maione, Vice President of Members Services for Local 493, the firefighters union in Prescott, welcomed the idea of a visit by the Watertree Health executives. It seemed everyone affiliated with the fire department in Prescott felt the same.

              On Thursday, December 19th, John McKiernan, Matt Herfield, Shane Power and Joe Kleiman arrived in Scottsdale and were escorted to Prescott by Charles Cicconi, a representative of Local 493. The men were welcomed in Prescott by Fire Capt. J.P. Vicente who took the four visitors to the burial site where all 19 fallen firefighters had been laid to rest, and the site of a future memorial in their honor.

              PHOTO
              (L-R) J.P. Vicente, J. McKiernan, M. Herfield, S. Power, J. Kleiman and C. Cicconi.

              Following the gravesite visit, Capt. Vicente arranged a tour of the firehouse that was once home to the 19 Hotshots. There, the Watertree Health team presented the department with a check representing the funds raised by the West Coast reps.
              ————————————————————–

              DAYUM ( as Marti would say ).

              I didn’t realize how SHORT this JP Vicente guy is.

              And the real question(s) still linger…

              WHERE ( exactly ) did all this money GO??????

        • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

          Reply to Joy A. Collura post on June 3, 2016 at 9:02 pm

          >> Joy A. Collura said…
          >>
          >> WTKTT… is this the guy you brought up recent

          Yep. That’s him.

          JP Vicente’s little sidekick.

          AZFAMILY
          Article Title: Some charities not handing over money meant for Hotshot families
          Posted: Oct 19, 2015 11:51 PM CST
          http://www.azfamily.com/story/30301885/some-charities-not-handing-over-money-meant-for-hot-shot-families

          What the article does NOT mention is that at the ‘100 Club’ of Arizona itself has never been held accountable for the upwards of 13 to 14 MILLION DOLLARS that entered THEIR possession in the name of “The Granite Mountain Hotshots”.

          I repeat: 13 to 14 MILLION DOLLARS.

          They ( The Arizona ‘100 Club’ ) have been apparently just ‘doling it out’ as THEY see fit… to whichever family members THEY feel like giving money to.

          Example: It is still rumored that they just ‘decided’ that Grant McKee’s girlfriend ( Leah Fine ) was actually Grant’s ‘fiance’ ( even though Grant’s mother Marcia McKee denies that was actually the case )… and the ‘100 Club’ supposedly then sent Leah Fine and HER entire family on a trip around the world…

          …while Marcia McKee herself ( Grant McKee’s biological mother ) hasn’t seen a DIME from the ‘100 Club’ of Arizona.

          It’s also still rumored that Marcia McKee has also never seen one single penny of the LOD Death Benefit she was automatically entitled to receive when her son Grant died in that fucked-up Arizona Forestry workplace.

          • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

            Whoops… I just noticed something.

            In Shannon Clark’s original email to Joy Hernbrode of Arizona Forestry is where she was telling Hernbrode that some of the Granite Mountain family members did NOT want ‘JP Vicente’ and ‘Ray Malone’ to be at the family Q/A day on February 5, 2016…

            ———————————————————————————
            From: Clark, Shannon L.
            Sent: Tuesday, January 19, 2016 7:05 AM
            To: Joy Hernbrode
            Cc: McGroder, Patrick J.
            Subject: Q&A
            Importance: High

            Hi Joy:

            ( snip )

            Clients are ok with COPFD being there for support, but some have requested that JP Vicente and Ray Malone NOT be there.

            ( snip )
            ———————————————————————————–

            However.. it looks like the guy’s name is actually Ray Maione ( with an ‘i’ and not an ‘l’ )… and Shannon Clark was getting it wrong.

            The article above and the articles about the Superintendent of the Prescott Pioneer Cemetery having to call the POLICE on JP Vicente also spell it ‘Ray Maione’ and not ‘Ray Malone’.

              • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

                Yes, Joy. That is Ronald ( Ronnie ) Gamble.

                Former Blue Ridge Hotshot who was on the BR crew in Yarnell on Sunday, June 30, 2013.

                This is the same ‘Ronald Gamble’ who supposedly shot the now-famous YARNELL-GAMBLE video while he was sitting in the Driver’s Seat of one of the Blue Ridge Crew Carriers, parked at the Shrine Road Youth Camp, at 4:27 PM that Sunday.

                The YARNELL-GAMBLE video is the one that captures Eric Marsh clearly reporting Granite Mountain’s ‘status’, at 4:27 PM, to someone who wanted to know about it.

                Marsh said “They’re comin’ from the heel of the fire”.

                That is also ( supposedly ) in response to the other voice at the start of the video who appears to have been urging Marsh to have Granite Mountain “Hurry Up”.

                Ronald Gamble has been interviewed since Yarnell ( like in the article you point to above )… but there has always been an ‘official’ present from the Prescott Fire Department and no one has ever been allowed to even ASK him any questions about that video… even though by the end of 2013 he no longer even worked for the US Forestry Service.

                It is still possible he remembers more about that video he shot at 4:27 PM… and WHO it might have been that Eric Marsh felt the need to be ‘reporting’ Granite Mountain’s hiking status to at 4:27 PM… just 12 minutes before Jesse Steed’s first MAYDAY was going to appear on the Air-To-Ground radio channel.

  10. Joy A. Collura says

    This email came from a person behind the scene who asked the hikers long ago what was it we hoped to see from the aftermath of the YHF late Fall 2013 and I said the cell phone records from certain folks on and off the fire 6-30-13—and this person would lead us to believe that was her search—to help us gain clarity—

    Here is a teaser I was given->

    “It is ON the way!

    12-13-13

    The information I requested pursuant to the freedom of information laws is on the way. SOON I will know more. I’ll keep you posted. Best, ”
    —————————————
    on 12-10-13 I was asked by same person if OSHA guys were good sports? Did we have a good relationship with them? The person kept saying they would keep us posted—

    —————————————-

    No it was not xxfullsailxx but this person did feel that blogger could of comport oneself more respectful when using John’s forum and made sure to make sure that we knew Bill Gabbert monitors his site as John does not but which site has surfaced more additional information in comparison in regards to the YHF?

    I think John’s page has-

    Back than this person was to wash their hands of the entire debacle saying they had no dog in the fight but they were here for the hikers yet I have from day one never seen that as facts but behind the scenes heard this person has been there for certain loved ones and Brendan. By 12-16-13 I learned the results/foia made it by this person but I never saw a cc of what the person received but this person always wanted to see what I received as soon as I got it- felt very one way- this person always felt we needed more evidence before one could accept that 2 men (Steed and Marsh) are the solely culpable for the mistakes that were made that day that took their lives.

    The hardest part in learning about this person was this person wanted anything I sent others especially Holly as the person asked Sonny behind my back for any emails I sent Holly to be forwarded to this person plus always felt like guidance to us “how to be” was being listened and absorbed like “do not compromise your own credibility or give reasons for people to distrust you”—I never paid that no mind–I am WHO I am—can’t change it nor want to—.
    Like, I heard similar to another in person friends with the loved ones tell me my private links because I was so generous and kind to show the link way early because Sonny asked me to do it but I did not want to for the fallen so others could properly assess the YHF–that why was other stuff was on there- well I just dumped my one file from HD and those were on it as I walked away from pc as it uploaded but I don’t have a thing to hide but this person felt some stuff portrays the hikers not good—well, that is life…life isn’t a;ways good- when you put two people together soooo very different.—but at least we always been here 24/7 to offer what we can to help get the fire properly assessed —so those two people began to be shelved as not genuine people to my life just people wanting to get along with all- I reckon—I stopped comprehending what their meanings were in this—on 1-23-14 I wanted guidance to Ball’s interview and the person said I will get back to you and did not–so I faded off there—

    You, all world wide, have to remember as you sit a computer—we were the hikers and eyewitness to that tragedy and instead of just going on with our lives we embarked on a path that others would not dare in a crony small town. Sonny did it for the fallen- I find it hard to “connect” to that area without just crumbling so I focus to the lives lost/locally since and the in town journey of the real people who faced the gates of hell straight on as they had to make fast decisions on what to pack if they even had that time to do such and after hearing each account I began the responses were overwhelming and that there was much more to this than a spark ignited on the Weavers because as I heard Ken tell me BLM Bruce quit after the YHF- and hearing his private journey I feel it is Bruce’s duty or Ken’s duty to talk on the details of the BLM on this here fire and what they saw and what I have heard but I do not think it is my place on certain things to share it but their place- Also walk with me in the neighborhood and learn who is crony and who is a person who lost her precious good man husband and had to go to CA to bury him and when returned her entire life burnt- gone—nothing salvageable—I saw her today and I am usually warm and she hugged me as her face with cancer taped up broke my heart because I am in so much pain trying to wobble around—now going on almost three weeks and no movement but I do it all perfect awaiting the surgeries—it was a quick hi and greet and she knows I am going to do all I can to find out why her home burned and not much notice was given when she was a state away burying her husband- then there was this other local who has been here 32 years and had a strong healthy life but when she was told her home burnt she had a heart attack and since has not recovered well and she is having to relocate and sell and she has to give away what is left to begin a new life with her poor health and heart—you begin to hear one after the other direct stories —how many peoples’ health affected—mine too and Sonny—listen to each story and I don’t mean the crony ones or the ones that made it to media but the real stories—it is not right…The town has more fizzled than rebuilt…Water company has been impacted deeply—that they are deeply raising the rates- I can share this- if it was not for the homeowners and their accounts/photos/videos I would not be saying dissect the area between the Shrine to Sesame to Helm’s area or dig deep into the dozer and ground to aerial- and these radio folks; interview the ones that were on the fire even if you have to wait until after they retire but try now- the loved ones had some really good questions but there is much more than those-

    I get tired of on the side emails stating we are “saying or suggesting” and we should correct it when the same person does not expect that of people on the fire like Donut. If you expect me to do it than publicly expect them too- just saying—don’t isolate me in this—

    Well, tomorrow is the big race—http://yarnellmemorialrun.com/
    so it is still hot out but we still have that “Scout” vehicle with INVESTIGATIVE MEDIA all over it and we want to position it some way in the air so its a focal point to their run—maybe get some new readers—or haters. I really do not see how you can hate the forum where it gives you the opportunity to share the YHF with no restrictions so you are not getting unedited or redacted information- and you may come up to some tough questions if you share and you can engage or not—I am very pleased I have a chance to voice my pain, information, etc because I do not do any social media—

  11. Robert the Second says

    This is an essay titled “Honor the Fallen” [HTF] by [Army Airborne Ranger] Mark Smith of Mission Center Solutions that is making the rounds in the WFF world. I failed to find a link, so this is the next best thing.

    Mission Center Solutions (MCS) contracts with the wildland fire community to primarily teach leadership. https://mcsolutions.com/

    I disagree with his and others’ stance(s) on the Fire Orders and Watch Out Situations and always will. They work every time, all you have to do is know them and use them.

    One of the statements in the essay is: “Senior leaders have begun to address this by calling the 10 & 18 guidelines and not policy, but these steps have been tentative and only partially implemented.”

    As long as WFF hold this “guidelines” attitude about the Fire Orders, there will continue to be fatalities. ONLY the 18 Watch Out Situations are guidelines.

    I think this “guidelines” attitude was one of the many reasons adopted by the GMHS with their pattern of Bad Decisions With Good Outcomes and one of the many causal factors on 30 June 2013.

    Here is one we can all agree with because that is what we have been seeking here since the beginning: “The truth is a worthy anchor point to begin to honor both the living and the fallen.”

    “Mark Smith, Mission‐Centered Solutions – Honor the Fallen Essay – The Big Lie
    Page | 1

    Honor the Fallen Essay Introduction

    I’m the author of this essay, but it reflects two years of dialogue within a group called Honor the Fallen. Coalescing in the wake of the 2013 Yarnell Hill fire and loss of 19 members of the Granite Mountain Hotshots, HTF is a collection of roughly 30 “seekers” within the wildland fire community. Hose‐draggers, fire directors, dirt diggers, academics, “Ollies”, agency administrators, ICs, FMOs… a diverse cross section is an understatement. This essay benefits from their critical eyes and input.

    What the group seeks is best explained by one of its founders:

    “One of the few acts of free will that tragedy leaves within our control is the chance to grow. Our brothers have given us such a precious and hard won opportunity to learn new knowledge and apply lessons. We realize and seek to highlight that cultural and other human factors risks are just as profound and potentially deadly as physical risks on any incident.

    The results WILL be repeated unchecked unless we commit to looking inside, to looking deeper at how we think, how we talk and how we perceive ourselves.
    Our end state is that the group’s efforts became a catalyst for continued cultural introspection into how human factors affect our decisions. The engagement generates a watershed event from the fire, having provoked thought, dialogue, questions and explorations in all corners of the wildland fire community. Yarnell Hill leads to a stronger, more self‐aware and more resilient wildland fire culture.

    Our effort was perceived as having rendered due honor and respect to the Granite Mountain Hotshots.”

    HTF is ready for this essay to be shared. But as another one of our members put it so well:

    “…I can’t help but feel that there is a conversation that needs to precede it. A conversation about our mission as suppression resources. Are we now in the business of intentionally risking lives to achieve wildland fire objectives? I ask because at least the [Agency] has never accepted that position before and maintains its stance on zero tolerance to this day. I understand that firefighters are going to die but there is a big difference between vehicle accidents and entrapments.”

    This essay takes the position that, by default, and for many reasons, risking lives to achieve wildland fire objectives is exactly what is happening. The debate on whether that is what should be happening is stifled by the denial that it’s happening right now.
    If the calculus is going to change, then wildland agencies are going to have to decide how to reconcile the expectations of taxpayers and their elected representatives with agency culture on acceptable risk.

    Right now this disconnect between reality and action is analogous to Social Security. Everyone knows it is unsustainable, everyone knows what is going to happen if nothing is done. Everyone knows it’s going to be really bad. Yet we demonstrate a complete lack of collective will to tackle the elephant in the room. Slight adjustments and tweaks are made that have almost no perceptible impact because they nibble around the edges of symptoms. The causes at the core remain unchallenged.

    Mark Smith, Mission‐Centered Solutions – Honor the Fallen Essay – The Big Lie
    Page | 2

    The Big Lie

    18.6 ‐ Truth and Culture in a High Risk Environment

    I was 18 years old and “chuted up”. Waiting for my first jump with my new unit after completing airborne school. Sitting on the drop zone waiting to board the helicopter, I watched two of my fellow Ranger candidates steer their parachutes into each other and become entangled. At 300 feet both their canopies collapsed and they plummeted to earth. Both suffered permanent serious disability.

    As soon as the ambulance was away, one of the NCOs, our jumpmaster, walked back over. “All right Rangers, next stick. Load up!” As we were getting seated in the helo he said in a calm even voice “The smallest mistake will kill you and your buddies. Now you know why we train the way we do.”

    Some joined for adventure. For college money. For a job. But we were all told from Day One how dangerous our new world was going to be. It had not taken long for the concept to become visceral.

    There were no illusions about the path we had chosen. From that moment on, death and injury were going to be a normal part of my life.

    A state fire chief I greatly respect recently asked, “Why are families so surprised or feel betrayed when their kids die fighting wildfires?”

    I believe the answer to that is because of the Big Lie. The lie that wildland firefighting is safe. Young firefighters and their families are told that they have a “right” to a safe work environment. It is explicit in the Interagency Standards for Fire and Aviation Operations “Every individual has the right to turn down unsafe assignments.” ¹
    The lie is so insidious that it permeates the thinking of many fire managers and agency administrators to the point of denial, despite a steady flow of coffins standing as evidence to the contrary.

    During my service, from the disastrous attempt to rescue hostages in Iran in 1980 to just before 9/11, over 550 members of the U.S. military special operations community were killed during training or operations. ² That’s an average loss rate of about 26 a year out of a population of about 46,000.

    During a recent trip to the wildland firefighter memorial in Boise, I counted the names of those firefighters whose markers stated they died on a fire. I only counted those who died in 2000 or later.

    My count was 182. The actual count ‐ through 2013 ‐ according to the National Interagency Fire Center is 261. ³ Considerably higher than mine.

    From 2000 through 2013, an average of 18.6 ground and aerial wildland firefighters died doing normal business on fires each year. In 12 of 14 years that number was well into double digits. In 2013, it was 34.

    I am always challenged during discussions about risk during classes and presentations to wildland audiences. “We’re different than the military. We do not have acceptable losses.” ⁴

    “It appears you do,” I respond. “It’s almost 19 a year and for the most part the cultural fundamentals of trying to fight fire on the cheap with a seasonal militia based model are unchanged.”

    Mark Smith, Mission‐Centered Solutions – Honor the Fallen Essay – The Big Lie
    Page | 3

    Is it surprising when a highway patrol officer is killed in an accident or shooting? Are we shocked when a structural firefighter is caught in a roof collapse? When a ship is lost at sea in a big storm? My Mom would have been distraught had I been killed, but she wouldn’t have been surprised.

    The truth is that wildland firefighting, like any realm in which people, machines and extreme natural forces collide, is inherently dangerous. One in which a seemingly small error, even being at the wrong time and place, can get people hurt or killed. How long do we try to “vector to zero” before admitting the data is telling us there is no such thing?

    Merriam Webster has a pretty simple definition of safe: “Free from harm or risk.” ⁵ It seems unrealistic one could be working on or above the fire ground and be free from risk. Here’s the interagency standards’ definition of safety: “A measure of the degree of freedom from risk or conditions that can cause death, physical harm, or equipment or property damage.” ⁶

    The big lie turned “Free from risk” into “A measurement of the degree of freedom from risk”. How does that measurement appear on a wildland 215A? Or discussion around “acceptable risk” in a WFDSS document or IAP? The point of origin of the Big Lie. If interagency policy defines safety as a measurement of something that never gets measured… how can that mean anything?

    The essence of risk analysis is that after risks are mitigated, you make decisions based on the acceptability of the residual risk. That too is interagency policy. ⁷ But it is not supported in practice.

    There is no column for that on a wildland 215A, as there is on other versions, such as the Coast Guard’s.

    I’ve not seen a 204 that quantifies residual risk for crews (i.e. this is a medium risk operation). The vast majority of administrators, fire managers and incident leaders I meet simply do not know how to do it.

    If the definition of safety is meaningless, and in contravention of its true nature, so too will be all the policies, rules and checklists that flow from it. The garbage in, garbage out effect.

    Following progress down the left and right flanks of the Big Lie, the confusion magnifies. Platitudes like “the 10 and 18. We don’t bend ’em, we don’t break ’em”, or “firefighter and public safety is your number one objective” – Actually, those are priorities not objectives. And ‐ they are two completely different priorities. Often you have to risk more with one in order to lessen the risk to the other.

    If real risk assessments ‐ using the two axis, probability/severity model ‐ were done in a tactics meeting on a typical wildland fire, here’s what we’d find. That most firefighters are routinely operating in medium or high risk conditions.

    I often ask groups what they feel the risk level is on a typical fire assignment. The overwhelming majority say low, some say medium. This is shocking to me. There is nothing low risk about a 19 year old hotshot driving an ATV loaded with fuel mix down a mountain at dusk after being up and working for 12 hours. I would challenge anyone to do a proper risk assessment and get that below medium. A single engine air attack platform operating over a fire in severe turbulence is medium risk. I have done dozens
    of risk assessments for airborne operations and have never been able to get one of them under a risk level of high. This tells me every jumper is operating in high risk just to commute to work.

    Nearly 19 firefighters a year are dying because they are operating, even after mitigation, in an inherently high risk environment. Not because they are just violating rules in a low risk environment.

    Continued on another post

    • Robert the Second says

      Honor the Fallen essay continued

      “Mark Smith, Mission‐Centered Solutions – Honor the Fallen Essay – The Big Lie
      Page | 4

      I don’t believe the Big Lie is the normalization of this reality. The Big Lie is in denial of it. It stands in opposition to the wildland fire leadership values of duty, respect and integrity. ⁸

      What actually gives me great hope is that, slowly, more and more leaders are abandoning the Big Lie in favor of the harsh truth that wildland firefighting is a very dangerous profession. The reality that people are going to get hurt and they are going to die.

      Many leaders have admitted to me in private that they know this. Yet they fear its admission is a license to ignore risks or abandon hard won safety standards. “We can’t admit we have acceptable losses!”

      A colleague, retired Marine Lieutenant Colonel Eric Carlson, puts it best. “Oh no.” he says, “We accept the risk of losses. There are no acceptable losses.” ⁹ That’s the crux. Our loss of 550 special operators was not acceptable. Each loss compelled us to introspection and improvement. Just as that loss of 261 wildland firefighters has driven us to this discussion we’re having now.

      There is acceptable risk. There is no acceptable loss. But there will be losses. So where does that uncomfortable truth leave us?

      Simply, with the sacred duty to keep that loss as low as humanly possible. With the obligation to tell the truth to our firefighters and families about the world they’ve become a part of. Of the risks they will face. With making imperfect decisions using the best art and science possible. With redeeming the values of duty, respect and integrity.

      There are many aspects to that challenge of what needs to be overcome and how, but all start with foundational culture. What aspects of current culture can we attribute to the Big Lie?

      The Big Lie fails to acknowledge that it is impossible to “obey” the 10 standard firefighting orders to the letter on the best day. Do you truly know where your firefighters are at all times? Do you really have communications at all times? Therefore on the worst day, when a bad outcome occurs, you have automatically violated these yes or no “rules” and are therefore guilty. This is a lawyer’s dream.

      Senior leaders have begun to address this by calling the 10 & 18 guidelines and not policy, but these steps have been tentative and only partially implemented.

      The Big Lie has begot a zero defect mentality whose main goal is not making any mistakes. Transparency and learning have become subordinate to covering one’s rear end, resulting in chronic underreporting of near misses and other important lessons for fear of reprisal. We make culture. It is the result of choices, either conscious or unconscious.

      As the developers of the first Fireline Leadership (L‐380), Incident Leadership (L‐381) and now Advanced Leadership for the C&GS (L‐481) programs, my colleagues and I have spent decades looking deeply into the timeless lessons from humans’ experience in chaos in order to figure out what works and why.

      Culture has to start with expectations. Many in wildland fire are asking – “How much risk is acceptable in fire suppression?” Does engagement with fire always mean fighting the fire?

      Mark Smith, Mission‐Centered Solutions – Honor the Fallen Essay – The Big Lie
      Page | 5

      That answer starts with defining the mission and the environment in which it must be conducted. [Government] organizations seek to achieve certain politically articulated goals. ¹⁰ Those define the expectations of the American people, elected officials, senior leadership, and our leaders.

      Taxes are paid with an expectation of protection from human caused and natural disasters. While no reasonable person expects a firefighter to die or suffer serious injury protecting their property, they do expect firefighters to put themselves in harm’s way in an attempt to minimize damage.

      In the current perimeter control paradigm, that means placing teams of people and equipment, all subject to the forces of Murphy’s Law ¹¹ into a chaotic environment fraught with friction, danger and uncertainty. Even the best model of probability and severity cannot diagram the exponential risk curve when multiple hazards and human factors begin compounding. Especially when the environment has the potential to change far more quickly than we can detect and react.

      Because 26 or 18.6, or whatever the number may be, will never be zero, the objective cannot be a number. The objective must be a culture whose leaders have the critical thinking and risk decision tools worthy of people getting a very dangerous job done with limited means to do it.

      An over‐reliance on rules and centralized control is a far less effective approach to guiding human action in chaotic conditions. Its rigid inflexibility only adds to friction and uncertainty. Compliance models work well for managing money, vehicles and equipment. Not well for governing human behavior. “Success as a resilient organization is built on a strong organizational culture and adaptive capacity.” ¹²

      Operational cultures that align to principles versus rules, conduct training and practice to communicate intent and support the use of professional judgment are much more agile and effective. “The secret of their success lies in three characteristics: safety awareness, decentralization, and training” ¹³ These are safer than compliance based cultures because their operators are armed with the information, understanding, training and freedom required to make continuous risk decisions at their level.

      For an organization to reach the difficult, but critical balance of safety, efficiency and effectiveness in a high risk environment requires a culture that places great value on team result, trust, truth, initiative, improvement and decisions aligned to the end state trying to be achieved. Once the desired culture is defined, budgets, programs, strategies and tactics, decisions and behavior can be aligned to it. Researchers can measure progress.

      When the inevitable occurs, liability investigations can be quickly screened for willful violation or gross negligence. Everything else can be defended using professional judgment and the reasonable person principle. Maximum learning can be gleaned from near misses, accidents and other flawed decisions.

      The road to a culture that can walk that kind of talk is extremely difficult to achieve and maintain. There will be ups and downs and setbacks. But until the Big Lie is defeated for good, we’ll never get there.

      The truth is a worthy anchor point to begin to honor both the living and the fallen.

      Mark Smith, Mission‐Centered Solutions – Honor the Fallen Essay – The Big Lie
      Page | 6

      Notes:

      1 NWCG, (2016) Interagency Standards for Fire & Aviation Operations, Chapter 07 Safety and Risk Management, 07‐14 (Pg 144 in online version)

      2 Special Operations Warrior Foundation (SOWF) (2001), statistics of special operations forces killed in line of duty from its founding after Operation Eagle Claw in 1980 to just prior to 9/11/2001

      3 NIFC (2013) Historical Wildland Firefighter Fatality Reports,
      http://www.nifc.gov/safety/safety_HistFatality_report.html

      4 Wildland Fire Lessons Learned Center (WFLLC) (2015) Two More Chains, Spring 2015 Vol. 5 Issue 1 – has an in depth discussion of this topic

      5 Merriam‐Webster (2014) Merriam‐Webster.com: Dictionary and Thesaurus,
      http://www.merriam‐webster.com/dictionary/safe

      6 NWCG, (2016) Interagency Standards for Fire & Aviation Operations, Chapter 07 Safety and Risk Management, 07‐2 (Pg 132 in online version)

      7 NWCG, (2016) Interagency Standards for Fire & Aviation Operations, Chapter 07 Safety and Risk Management, 07‐2 (Pg 132 in online version)

      8 NWCG (2007) PMS 494‐2 Leading in the Wildland Fire Service, Preface, 3

      9 Carlson (2012) Comments as lead facilitator for L‐580 Leadership is Action, Gettysburg Staff Ride

      10 Boin, Hart, Stern & Sundelius (2010) The Politics of Crisis Management, 20

      11 De Morgan (1866) “Supplement to the Budget of Paradoxes,” The Athenaeum no. 2017, 836 – subsequently Murphy’s Law: If it can happen, it will happen – a corollary to the 2nd Law of Thermodynamics: that energy tends to spontaneously move from being concentrated in one place to becoming diffused and spread out.

      12 USFS (2014) Human Performance and Resiliency RD&A – Program Charter, 2

      13 Boin, Hart, Stern & Sundelius (2010) The Politics of Crisis Management, 37″

      • Muzzy says

        RTS,

        Thanks for posting this; it’s a good start. One way that the reality of possible fatalities is the families’ wishes that new FF are instructed to keep their affairs in order before the season starts.

        However, I am troubled as you are by the 10&18 as guidelines bit, and also by the following:

        While no reasonable person expects a firefighter to die or suffer serious injury protecting their property, they do expect firefighters to put themselves in harm’s way in an attempt to minimize damage.

        This suggests the confounding of structural FF mission with WLFF. Unless we change our training, equipment and rules of engagement, this has to stop.

        I’m at a loss to say how to turn the culture around, because I see a number of impediments. First of all is the fact that WLFFs only get paid well when there is danger and overtime, preventing FFs themselves from working for more rational fire management.

        Next is the high percentage of seasonal workers, many of whom hope to parlay their WLFF experience into a permanent position within the FS, NPS or structural FF unit. They are incentivized to stand out and make a name for themselves. Taking on more danger in the WUI may not achieve their aims, but some of them might think it will.

        I don’t want to anger anyone here, but I also see a lack of professionalism in the culture. What some people see as “can do” attitude I see as the antithesis of professionalism. Doctors, lawyers, engineers know the difference between what they know and what they don’t, and those limits are enforced by professional standards and sanctions. I’m sure there are pros who are willing to chance a foray into gray areas, but by and large they stay in their lanes.

        WLFF need to decide what they do and what they don’t, then they need to let everyone know what that is. They need to demand that contractors and other units with whom they work are as qualified as they claim and as they need to be to be safe and effective. They need to demand that their overhead all the way up the line is WLFF trained, not some liaison to a structural chief or a paper-pusher who took a written test and thinks he’s qualified. Professionals demand to be paid what they’re worth, to be treated as experts at what they do. Of course, they need to act professionally and be accountable for their actions, including taking their own safety seriously.

        In turn, we as citizens need to recognize that we need to pay the price, in taxes and building standards and off season maintenance, and we need to be willing to kiss our homes goodbye when wildland fire threatens.

        This is a tall order.

        • Muzzy says

          Second sentence should be:

          One way that the reality of possible fatalities may be impressed on recruits and their loved ones is fulfilling the GM19 families’ wishes that new FF are instructed to keep their affairs in order before the season starts.

    • Woodsman says

      2014 Most Dangerous Jobs (Bureau of Labor Statistics)

      Rank Occupation #deaths/100K total deaths
      1 Logging workers 110.9 78
      2 Fishers and related fishing workers 80.8 22
      3 Aircraft pilots and flight engineers 64 82
      4 Roofers 47.4 83
      5 Refuse and recyclable material collectors 35.8 27
      6 Farmers, ranchers, and other agricultural managers 26.7 270
      7 Structural iron and steel workers 25.2 15
      8 Driver/sales workers and truck drivers 24.7 880
      9 Electrical power-line installers and repairers 19.2 25
      10 Taxi drivers and chauffeurs 18 68
      11 First-line supervisors of construction trades and extraction workers 17.9 130
      12 Construction laborers 16.9 208
      13 First-line supervisors of landscaping, lawn service, and groundskeeping workers 16.4 33
      14 Maintenance and repairs workers, general 14.4 68
      15 Police and sheriff’s patrol officers 13.5 97
      16 Grounds maintenance workers 13.1 158
      17 First-line supervisors of mechanics, installers, and repairers 12.3 38
      18 Painters, construction and maintenance 10.8 46
      19 Electricians 10.4 79
      20 Telecommunications line installers and repairers 10 19

      • Muzzy says

        Woodsman,

        The important number is deaths per 100,000 workers. Let’s say there are 10000 WLFF at any one time, with an average of 30 deaths per year, that would be 300 deaths/year/100k workers. But it gets worse. Those appear to be annual statistics. If we assume that WLFFs work for six months, the number goes up to an annualized rate of 600. Even if we assume 20 deaths per year, the number is 400. That is higher than any number on that list.

        The other issue is that I don’t employ those other workers, but my tax dollars pay for WLFFs and policies are set by my representatives, so they are of greater interest to me.

        Don’t get me wrong, many of the deaths you cite are avoidable, too, but OSHA has little clout (see one of my posts about a thousand posts ago). Deaths have been cut in half on a per capita basis since it was formed, but they need larger fines, more inspectors, and a different attitude from employers. If all of us are just plantation workers to management, our deaths will continue to be a cost of doing business.

        • Bob Powers says

          Average actual Fire burn fatalities is around 4 per year.
          Take say 100 HS crews working on fires for a estimate of 30 fires and 60 hours per fire. Exposure would be 3,600,000 hours per year.

          The average of 4 deaths per year all Fire fighters burned on fires. The average of HS that died by Fire per year since 1955 is roughly .8 ( point 8) and most were in 3 seperiate fires over a 60 year time span.

          It is horrific when people die but until now the statistic has been low compared to other groups.

          Another Statistic– The Safety FIRST committee I worked on in R5 in 1973 established a new safety criteria in 1974 in Fire safety.
          Region 5 went for 12 years without a Fire burn fatality following those rules and cut other Fire related fatalities in half. I have been very proud of that in my carrier.
          FIRE IMPROVEMENT REGIONAL SAFETY TEAM —-FIRST

          What we established was no more than following the rules from the Top supervisor to the bottom employee. Emphasizing Safety and unheard of rating Up as well as down ON FIRES we rated the Sector Bosses Division Bosses and OPS. They rated the IC as did the Crews. Every body paid a lot more attention to safety.

          The reason we got the Safety FIRST thru was the foresight of the Regional Fire Management Officer and support of the Regional Forester. We broke into groups of 2 going to each Forest and District in what was called a sensing group and talked to a group on the forest that were all red carded from Crewman to supervisory and condensed the remarks into a Regional breakdown of the major problems.

          That I believe is what needs to happen again before this fire Fatality problem escalates. I am not sure there is any one out there with the foresight to pull that off. WE can only hope.

          Urban Interface has changed Wild Land Fire Fighting for ever. Fatalities are still not acceptable on wild land fires. no matter the number and no matter the CAUSE.

          The 10 and 18 have been a major factor in the reduction of Fire Burn Fatalities in the past. That is a Fact when evaluating the over all Wild Land Fire Suppression effort.

          FIGHT FIRE AGGRESSIVELY, HAVING PROVIDED FOR SAFETY FIRST.

          • Muzzy says

            Bob,

            All excellent points and (not coincidentally) in support of many of my points above. I do want to emphasize you point that all WLFF deaths are of concern to me. Burns always seem the worst way to die, and large numbers are more noticeable, but if a WLFF dies by being impaled by a falling snag she didn’t notice because she was interacting with a tourist who should never have been there, that is still a problem for me.

            As part of their professional standards, WLFFs should declare “red card zones” the way we have hard hat areas or crimes scenes, authorized personnel only beyond this point. Groupies and fire tourists should be arrested, and linemen, dozer operators, etc. should be qualified during the off season in required training courses so they understand what their lane is, and they need to be supervised by a red card, like Morin was, unless they have a real red card of their own. Evacuations in the WUI should occur way earlier than they do now. WLFFing is hard enough without kids, dogs, and gawkers underfoot.

            I understand that NPS and FS will cringe, because their branding is that all us greenhorns will have a safe, comfortable, Disney experience when we roll in with our 90ft campers, but that is leading visitors who have no respect for wildlands or for the rules to take more risks and put others at risk as well. We don’t want roads everywhere for aesthetic and ecological reasons, but that means that lots of vehicles need to go single file out narrow roads, making it harder for FF to do their work.

            Everything you’ve said above should be absorbed and owned by every new recruit, current WLFF and admin up the line. You should write a book! But don’t expect to be invited by Hold Fast. Their brand of team building looks like more about following orders and group think.

            • Bob Powers says

              The real truth is that all other accidents are preventable out side the fire caused accidents.

              Snag areas and rolling rock areas can be avoided by simple safety rules. Vehicle accidents are common in all work environments and we teach and teach on them.
              Hart attacks I do not consider as a accident but a health issue.
              Heat stroke can be prevented.
              Air Craft accidents are a whole nother ball game.
              You have some good points as well.
              The FEDS use to be very savvy on Safety I am at a loss today.

        • Muzzy says

          BTW, I suspect that WLFFs don’t appear on that list because they are lumped in with structural FFs, which is like lumping loggers in with lumber yard workers.

          This conflation of two very different groups occurs in part because structural FFs have the jump on WLFFs in the PR department, and their voices and cultural values seem to dominate on mixed incidents. When GM first formed, they did so as part of and subordinate to a structural unit.

          Branding and marketing (which is what this is, after all) will improve if/when WLFFs develop a more professional culture and differentiate themselves from the structural units. A purely structural FF should be no more willing to wear yellow and green than a purely WLFF would feel qualified to wear turnouts.

          If the Kardashians could do it, just think about what you all could someone!

          • Woodsman says

            Muzzy,

            If the wff were lumped in with the structural folks than that would shoot the number up higher because of so many more personnel and breadth of exposure…and they still don’t make the list.

            Interesting that you said that because I believe the infiltration of structural firefighters into the wildland realm is part of the killing trend.

        • Woodsman says

          Muzzy,

          Respectfully, that’s a lot of assumptions you just made in the math. There are many other occupations that are seasonal in nature as well. A number of occupations on that list may be public employees as well.

          Good discussion. Thanks.

          Woodsman

      • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

        Reply to Woodsman post on June 3, 2016 at 9:32 pm

        >> Woodsman said…
        >>
        >> 2014 Most Dangerous Jobs (Bureau of Labor Statistics)
        >>
        >> Rank Occupation #deaths/100K total deaths

        Copy that.

        This is why it always kills me ( no pun intended ) when Fireman go on and on about what a dangerous ‘occupation’ they have.

        Like they are the only ones who face danger and/or death at work.

        Some face it EVERY SHIFT… and not just seasonally or when the horn goes off.

        It’s also funny how these ‘lists’ of ‘dangerous occupations’ always leave off the hands-down, number-one ‘dangerous occupation’ in the modern world…

        Operating a motor vehicle.

        Traffic fatalities in just the (same) year 2014…

        32,675 ( 10.25 per 100,000 )

        THIRTY TWO THOUSAND, SIX HUNDRED AND SEVENTY FIVE

        That’s 89 deaths PER DAY.

        • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

          Forgot to mention… the 32,765 traffic deaths in 2014 number is ONLY for the United States.

          Be careful driving out there.
          The “Rules of the Road” are not “Hillbilly”.
          There were created for your OWN welfare.

        • Woodsman says

          Hey, WTKTT got it!!! (doesn’t surprise me)

          The report along with those statistics (and we all know that you can many times make statistics show what you want to show) included the point you just made – operating a vehicle on the road…and particularly commercial vehicles is very, very high risk.

          Cue the hero worship replete with bagpipes, it’s a dangerous job! (eyeroll) It doesn’t have to be. Egghead firefighters and incompetent managers make it way, way more dangerous than it is; and it’s a whole hell of a lot less dangerous than many, many occupations out there.

          Let’s get real.

          Woodsman

          • Woodsman says

            Oh and by the way, there are people who can make good decisions under stress and there are people who cannot. Being able to keep your head under extreme stress is important in stressful and dynamic work places. Those who do not possess this skill shouldn’t be involved in wildfire suppression or other similar occupations. I’d say this is doubly true in occupations where you are responsible for the livelihood of others.

            Woodsman

            • Bob Powers says

              I had way more exposer and Stress as a Deputy Sheriff than I ever had or felt as a Wild Land Fire Fighter.

              You have no control over a human that wants to go off on you.

              You can control Nature it is not out to kill you. As long as you understand the how and why nature works. Then there are really no surprises.

              • Woodsman says

                And the danger of police/sheriff work is reflected by the number 15 position of the list. Good point Bob, Thanks

                Woodsman

            • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

              Well… when you can start your own Wildfire Academy from the living room of your Mobile Trailer… then fill out a job to work on a ‘Fuels Crew’ and then end up just ‘grandfathered in’ to being the actual Superintendent of an actual Type 1 Hotshot Crew…

              …I’d say that’s something that needs to be looked into… PROCESS wise.

              People who really are NOT qualified to be field-team leaders should never be able to sort of just ‘slip in the back door’.

              In any ‘structured organization’… it should be HARD to advance up to higher positions… not EASY.

              And yes… this goes back to the scenario whereby FFs are just signing off on each others’ taskbooks and handing out red-card qualifications like corrupt Boy Scouts passing out merit badges to each other.

              THAT is one sure way to get unqualified people at the ‘higher’ levels.

              And it’s something that can/should be fixed… toot sweet.

  12. WantsToKnowTheTruth says

    **
    ** WHY ARIZONA FORESTRY DIDN’T WANT HOLLY NEILL AT THE Q/A DAY

    Here is Joy Herbrode of Arizona Foresty asking family member representative Shannon Clark about ‘rumors’ they have heard that people working on ‘books’ ( like Holly Neill ) were trying to attend the family Q/A session.

    NOTE: The settlement-agreement said that family members were allowed to bring whoever they wanted to the Q/A day as ‘support experts’… but obviously Arizona Forestry was now about to draw a line in the sand with regards to both MEDIA people and anyone working with anyone who is writing a ‘for profit’ book about the Yarnell Hill Fire.

    —————————————————————–
    From: Joy Hernbrode
    Sent: Tuesday, November 10, 2015 3:18 PM
    To: Shannon Clark
    Subject: Re: Hotshots Q&A
    Importance: High

    Shannon, we have heard strong rumors that non-family members (ie researchers working for authors with book deals) will be coming along. Can you confirm one way or the other?

    Joy

    Sent from my Verizon 4G LTE Smartphone
    ——————————————————————

    Shannon Clark eventually gets back to Joy about this… but still apparently has no idea that Joy Hernbrode had, in fact, been referring to Holly Neill and her KNOWN association with author John Maclean.

    ——————————————————————
    From: Clark, Shannon L.
    Date: Tue, Dec 29, 2015 9:48 AM
    To: Joy Hernbrode;
    Cc: McGroder, Patrick J.;
    Subject:2/5

    Are we set for 2/5?

    Outside of clients and lawyers, the only folks I understood might be coming would be: Doug Harwood, Darrell Willis and Holly Neil. It’s important to the family that they be allowed to attend, even if they can’t speak ( if you guys didn’t want them to ).

    We’d also asked Todd Abel and Gary Cordes to attend.
    Gary won’t, but Todd will. Were you going to ask Brendan?

    Or did we decide we didn’t want him there?

    Let me know.
    Shannon
    —————————————————

    The email where Arizona Forestry then specifically DENIED Holly Neill permission to attend the Q/A seems to be ‘missing’ from the ‘Arizona Open Records’ fulfillment, but we DO see the email where Shannon Clark was then pleading with Joy Hernbrode to reconsider their decision about Holly Neill… and informing her that Neill had agreed to sign any/all non-disclosure and/or confidentiality agreements with Arizona Forestry, so long as she might be allowed to attend the Q/A meeting.

    There also does not seem to be an email representing Arizona Forestry’s FINAL decision regarding Holly Neill… so it is still unknown if Holly Neill was ever allowed to actually attend the February 5, 2016 ‘Question and Answer’ day.

    There is also the suggestion in this email that NEITHER side of the table ( The family members OR Arizona Forestry ) wanted Brendan McDonough to be there at that Q/A day.

  13. WantsToKnowTheTruth says

    **
    ** VICENTE AND MALONE

    Another ‘glimpse’ into Shannon Clark ( representing GM families ) and Joy Hernbrode ( representing Arizona Forestry ) trying to ‘work out’ who is ( or is NOT ) invited to attend the settlement-mandated Q/A day.

    If Mr. Turbyfill was offended that the attorneys for the families found him to be ‘abrasive’ and ‘not one of our clients’… and for those reasons alone he was denied access to the only opportunity Arizona Forestry was ever going to offer for family members to ask REAL questions about why their loved ones died…

    …then he shouldn’t feel ‘alone’.

    There were OTHERS that the Granite Mountain ‘family members’ and their attorneys did not WANT to be there for the Q/A session.

    NOTE: COPFD is short for “Chief Of Prescott Fire Department”.

    JP Vicente was the Prescott Fire Department ‘Battalion Chief’ who was designated as the head ‘Family Representative’ between Prescott Fire and the families of the fallen. JP Vicente was set to retire ( with his full package ) from Prescott Fire in 2013, but he decided to ‘stay on’ just to serve as the ‘liason’ between PFD and the families of the deceased GM Hotshots.

    Ray Malone was also ‘Prescott Fire Department’… and also a ‘family representative’ following the tragedy.

    ———————————————————————————
    From: Clark, Shannon L.
    Sent: Tuesday, January 19, 2016 7:05 AM
    To: Joy Hernbrode
    Cc: McGroder, Patrick J.
    Subject: Q&A
    Importance: High

    Hi Joy:

    I’m still fighting with the document. I think the issue may be my email space or something. I’ll get it sorted out with IT when I get to the office and hope to have the remaining questions to you before lunch, if not sooner.

    As far as attendance, we would like you to invite Sciacca for the reasons I left you in my VMM last week.

    Clients are ok with COPFD being there for support, but some have requested that JP Vicente and Ray Malone NOT be there.

    We will try to invite Brendan and advise if he agrees to come.

    You has asked about Thomas French and John Burfing. They are Aviation. Can they be there?

    Also, understanding that Brian Frisby is USFS, and probably can’t come, is it ok if our clients invite him?

    Shannon
    ———————————————————————————–

    So it was the family members themselves ( and their attorneys ) who specifically told Arizona Foresty to make sure JP Vicente and Ray Malone would NOT be present for the Q/A day.

    Makes you wonder what THAT was all about.

    Maybe it had something to do with that FRAP that took place in Prescott over the burial sites at the Prescott Pioneer Cemetery.

    The owner/superintendent of the ‘Prescott Pioneer Cemetery’ ended up having to call the POLICE on Prescott Fire Department Battalion Chief and ‘GM Family Liasion’ JP Vicente.

    JP Vicente kept showing up at the Pioneer Cemetery with workers and equipment to try and actually make the area at the cemetery the way HE wanted it to be… and the way he says the ‘family members’ were telling him they wanted it to be… versus what had already been AGREED TO with the owners of Pioneer Cemetery.

    The Superintendent of the Cemetery kept turning JP Vicente and his ‘work crews’ away for days in a row… but they just kept thumbing their noses at him and just kept coming back to work on the cemetery and make it the way THEY wanted it to be.

    The Superintedent finally got fed up and called the POLICE to come and stop Prescott Battalion Chief JP Vicente and his ‘guys’. He charged them all with ‘trespassing’.

    I’ve mentioned before that these ‘fire guys’ are, in some ways, even worse than dealing both the MAFIA and the MASONS ( and other ‘secret societies’ ) combined, but wait until you hear the full lowdown on this JP Vicente character.

    Not only was he the deignated ‘GM Family Liasion’… he is also the President of the Local Central Arizona firefighter’s UNION.

    Make no mistake. He does what the fuck HE wants… when HE wants… and doesn’t give a fuck WHO gets in his way. .. and he calls in ‘his boys’ whenever he needs to… just like he did when he was trying to make the Pioneer Cemetery area come out the way HE wanted it to… and didn’t give one flying fuck what the OWNERS of the cemetery had AGREED to already.

    So yea… maybe THAT had a teensy-weensy something to do with why the family members were telling Arizona Forestry to make SURE this JP Vicente asshole ( and his little sidekick Malone ) were NOT THERE at the Q/A day.

    Hmmm… ‘Vicente and Malone’.

    Actually SOUNDS like some kind of ‘mob meeting’… with the Italian side of the ‘business’ getting together with the Irish side.

    Nah. Pure coincidence, I’m sure.

    SIDENOTE: It is still highly likely that the as-yet unnamed ‘Prescott Fire Official’ that met with Amanda Marsh on a park bench outside the Prescott Courthouse ( like some kind of ‘secret exchange’ was taking place ) and gave her back Eric Marsh’s ‘missing’ cellphone was most likely either this JP Vicente ‘Family Liason’ guy… or his little sidekick Ray Malone.

    • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

      Followup…

      Here is just one ( of many ) articles that appeared after the Superintendent of the Prescott Pioneer Cemetery ended up having to call the POLICE to keep this JP Vicente guy ( and his minions ) from showing up at the cemetery to try and make the area come out the way THEY wanted it to.

      It all worked OK in the end… and the PHOTO accompanying the article shows Pioneer Cemetery Superintendent Ted Ihrman and Prescott Battalion Chief JP Vicente ‘shaking hands’… with big smiles pasted on their faces for the camera.

      Preview QUOTE…

      Vicente and Maione freely admitted that after Ihrman rejected their design that the Hotshots’ families had agreed to, they went ahead and tried to build it anyway.

      The Prescott Daily Courier
      Article Title: Hotshots cemetery memorial construction is underway
      Originally Published: June 12, 2014 6:01 a.m – By Joanna Dodder Nellans
      http://www.dcourier.com/news/2014/jun/12/hotshots-cemetery-memorial-construction-is-underw/
      ——————————————————————————–
      PHOTO: By Les Stukenberg of The Daily Courier – Ted Ihrman and JP Vicente ‘shaking hands’ after their disagreement over the Memorial Site at teh Pioneers Cemetery in Prescott.

      PHOTO CAPTION…
      Ted Ihrman, superintendent of the Arizona Pioneers Home and Cemetery, and JP Vicente, the Granite Mountain 19 family services coordinator, shake hands Wednesday on an agreement over the layout and design of the memorial site.

      PRESCOTT, Arizona – It wasn’t exactly a smooth process, but the design for the Granite Mountain Hotshots Burial Site has been finalized and construction is underway.

      Ten of the 19 fallen Hotshots are buried next to each other at the state-owned Pioneers Home Cemetery in Prescott, and all 19 will have plots with bronze grave markers that are etched with images from family photos.

      The site is covered with brick pavers and artificial turf, all surrounded by a two-foot-high staircased wall where people can sit while paying their respects.

      The flags of the U.S., Arizona and the Granite Mountain Hotshots fly over the site. A granite bench and granite monument are planned for the future.

      There is room for approximately 20 family members to be buried alongside their sons and husbands.

      “It’s full of honor,” retired firefighter Danny Parker remarked while surveying the site Wednesday. He and his wife plan to be buried there next to their son Wade.

      “It’s respectable and dignified,” long-time local funeral home director Butch Hampton added.

      The cemetery was originally set aside for long-time elderly Arizona residents who lived at the Arizona Pioneers Home, but several years ago the state opened it up for others.

      It’s an appropriate final resting place for the Granite Mountain Hotshots, since they perished June 30, 2013, fighting a wildfire that ignited on state trust lands and were called to help a state firefighting team.

      The state agreed to open up a new section of the cemetery so the hotshots could be buried together. They charged only $100 per gravesite for the Fallen 19 instead of the usual $900.

      Pioneers Home Superintendent Ted Ihrman and Administrative Services Officer Dale Sams complimented the design Wednesday.

      “It’s a beautiful job,” Ihrman said.

      The two Pioneers Home officials agreed to the design Wednesday, but not before they became involved in a sometimes heated dispute with representatives of two firefighter and Hotshot family support groups, the 100 Club of Arizona and Professional Firefighters of Arizona.

      The two sides also disagreed about whether the Pioneers Home was going to reserve some adjacent gravesites for more family members and fellow firefighters.

      It got to the point Tuesday that Ihrman called in Prescott police and asked them to charge some of the firefighters and workers with trespassing at the cemetery. He had asked the workers to stop on Friday and Monday because they were not building according to an agreed design, and they came back again Tuesday, Sams said.

      After police said it was a civil matter, both sides agreed to meet Wednesday at the cemetery and talk Prescott Fire Capt. JP Vicente, who also represents the 100 Club and serves as the Granite Mountain Hotshots family member services coordinator, and Ray Maione, VP of member services for the

      Professional Firefighters of Arizona, headed up the effort to design and build what they are calling the Granite Mountain Hotshots Burial Site.

      “We had a disagreement, and at the end we agreed to do the right thing,” Vicente said.

      Vicente and Maione freely admitted that after Ihrman rejected their design that the Hotshots’ families had agreed to, they went ahead and tried to build it anyway.

      Ihrman and Sams wanted the boundary wall to be only about six inches high, and they didn’t want pavers on the ground where people would be buried in the future. Otherwise, they wanted family members to be buried outside of the wall.

      Sams said they were trying to think ahead to the future, when gravediggers would have to remove the walls and pavers for new burials. They feared the Hotshot families would end up having to cover the extra costs and the memorial wouldn’t look the same.

      “We have to think this out,” Sams said.

      Maione said some of the widows cried when he told them they’d have to be buried outside the wall, so they just couldn’t build it that way.

      Vicente and Maione assured them that the 100 Club would cover the extra burial costs with donations it received for the Hotshots’ families, just like it has covered the costs of purchasing approximately 25 extra gravesites so there would be room for the memorial.

      In the end, both sides agreed to just move the two-foot-high wall one foot because it was encroaching on other gravesites, so there will be room for relatives inside the wall.

      With the exception of the monument, the memorial will be finished in time for the one-year anniversary of the Hotshots’ death June 30.

      From the gravesites Wednesday, Parker pointed to the home where he grew up and where his parents still live.

      The firefighters of the future will take care of the site, too, he said.

      “They don’t understand,” Parker said of the Pioneers Home officials. “The fire service will not forget.”
      ——————————————————————————–

    • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

      Followup on the “Vicente and Malone” frap…

      Not all of the family members had ‘problems’ with these guys.

      The 100 Club of Arizona gave Vicente his own “hero award” at some point for the work he did supporting GM family members, and I believe it was the mother of deceased Granite Mountain hotshot Sean Misner that wrote a glowing letter of thanks to Vicente that went with the award…

      But something happened, somewhere, to cause SOME family members to ask the attorneys to tell Arizona Forestry to make SURE that BOTH Vicente and Malone would NOT be there for the settlement-mandated ‘Question and Answer’ day.

      • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

        JP Vicente had also been involved, PRIOR to the Yarnell tragedy, in a very nasty lawsuit he filed against his own employer, the Prescott Fire Department. It dragged on for 3 or 4 YEARS before resolving with no monetary settlement amounts. Something about him sueing PFD for violating his rights to free speech with regards to trying to file complaints with the City Of Prescott for things coming from other Union Firefighters. Vicente was the President of that Local Firefighters Union.

        But it’s doubtful that whole thing had anything to do with why some family members ended up NOT wanting him ( and Malone ) to be present at the Q/A meeting.

        • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

          **
          ** THE JP VICENTE LAWSUIT

          Here is just one article that ‘summarizes’ the 3-year long lawsuit.

          One of the key issues wasn’t just complaints from other Union FFs.

          It was actually about Vicente paying other people CASH MONEY to work his Fire Department shifts so he could spend more time on the other ‘side businesses’ he had going on.

          This JP Vicente guy is a real “piece a work”.

          The Prescott Daily Courier
          Article Title: Vicente v. Prescott suit ends with settlement
          Published: September 25, 2014
          http://www.dcourier.com/news/2014/sep/25/vicente-v-prescott-suit-ends-with-settlement/

          From that article…
          ———————————————————————–
          PRESCOTT –  A lawsuit that has spanned nearly three years and has cost the City of Prescott about $190,000 in legal fees has ended, with no monetary award to either side.

          In unanimous action Tuesday, the Prescott City Council approved an out-of-court settlement, which concludes the lawsuit without any money changing hands between the two parties. Likewise, both parties are responsible to pay their own legal fees, and agree to give up their right of appeal.

          The lawsuit dates back to December 2011, when John Paul (J.P.) Vicente, a Prescott Fire Captain and acting battalion chief, made eight employment-related allegations against the city. The suit claimed that the city attempted to force Vicente into early retirement after he had complained about harassment to two union members and then advocated for a female firefighter over claims of sexual harassment by a supervisor.

          The city maintained that Vicente frequently traded shifts with other firefighters in order to accommodate the demands of his other businesses.

          “In some cases Vicente would pay other firefighters in cash for working his shifts rather than working one of their shifts in exchange,” stated the background in an August order by a U.S. District Court Judge.

          City officials reportedly instructed Vicente to stop the practice, but when he did not, Vicente said city officials tried in January 2011 to get him to sign a disciplinary agreement that would have resulted in his resignation by June 2011. The agreement also included an option for early retirement.

          Although he did not sign the disciplinary agreement, Vicente did enter the DROP (Deferred Retirement Option Plan, a 60-month program during which there are no employer contributions to retirement and no further years of service are credited) in January 2011, according to the order.
          ———————————————————————–

  14. Marti Reed says

    OK I’m sitting here somewhat falling asleep while read through today’s comments, and I come across this:
    —————————————————————
    Woodsman says JUNE 2, 2016 AT 6:59 PM

    RTS,

    I’m with you on the NIMO watchout 100%. I’ve seen it many times with my own eyes,

    Woodsman
    ———————————————–

    So, know-nothing civilian keyboard warrior/digital photographer Albuquerquean that I am, I would like to know more about this.

    I’ve gone through some major eye-opening conversions through the conversations of the past two or so years here.

    1). The critical analyses of the “fusion fire-fighters.” Especially given the rah-rah-rah that happens right here in River City regarding everybody training together to fight wildfires in the Wildland-Urban-Interface and how groovy that is!!

    And then doing my research and realizing wildland fire-fighters are getting themselves trapped and burned over and killed in the “WUI” while structural fire-fighters aren’t.

    2). The Incident Command System. The other big rah-rah-rah that everybody thinks is the best invention since paper clips and peanut butter; while I’m learning here that that’s just sucking structural fire-fighters (battalion chiefs) and others who don’t really know how to fight wildfires up into the ranks of the mighty higher-ups who are, in many ways, mis-managing how wildfires are being mis-managed.

    (I should add to this that I’ve been reading lately complaints — I have links but I don’t know where they are right now — that Federal wildland fire-fighters actually can’t move up in the ranks of Federal agencies these days and that’s a part of the reason why there’s a lack of people like them who actually know how to do this stuff among the muckie mucks and Incident Command Teams).

    3). And now this thing about NIMOs. I really don’t know anything about NIMO’s. I haven’t researched them. But what I do know is that placing a Type 2 Short Team in charge of the Yarnell Hill Fire was, imho, a YUGE part of what went wrong on June 30, 2013. Is there a connection?

    I’d really like to know more about this.

    Thanks, in advance.

  15. Bob Powers says

    Looks like Holly is pushing her Horseshoe 2 fire over on Safety Matters Face Book page.
    Of course she is one of the board members.

    • Woodsman says

      Bob,

      I visited her site and read the articles & comments. I can’t stomach reading any more of the self-serving bullshit there. Yeah, Horseshoe 2 went off without a hitch! Good plan! Great wx conditions! Commendation letter for doing that?? Sure. The worst part is the insinuation that the turndown MAY have delayed the plan leading to the entrapment – SURE it did.

      Of all the incidents to promote as an example? Who needs enemies when you have friends like that? If I was an advocate for GM, I would have left that one alone.

      There were some good comments there though. At least there some wff with working brains left in the world. I don’t do FB or I would make a reality check comment over there…doubt it would do any good though.

      Woodsman

      • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

        And somewhere down below… in this Holly Neill person’s latest “drive-by-shooting” here on this PUBLIC forum… she fired this ‘Respectful’ round of ammunition from the window of her car…

        Duty-Respect-Integrity. You ought to look up the meaning. Oh that’s right, you’ve never been a firefighter, you can’t be expected to understand or apply the meaning.

        So just 48 hours after Memorial Day… I learn that ONLY ‘Firefighters’ can ever possibly know the meaning of ‘Duty’ and/or ‘Respect’ and/or ‘Integrity’… or ever be able to ‘apply’ it, in any way.

        I didn’t know that. Thanks, Holly. Fascinating to learn.

        I don’t even think the MAFIA or the MASONS make those kind of ‘exclusive’ claims.

        And this coming from someone who decided, herself, NOT to use her real name in her initial communications with lead ADOSH investigator Marshall Krotenberg… and would only sign those initial emails with…

        “A FAN of GMIHCS”

        It was only when Krotenberg opened the door for her a little and she felt she might actually have a chance to get what SHE wanted from them that she decided to start using her real name on her emails.

        I guess she has no idea that here we are now looking at over 2,400 emails from her fellow ‘Firefighter’ compadrenitos ( with all that Duty and Respect and Integrity dripping off them ) who were/are doing everything they could/can to lie, cheat, obfuscate, and avoid ‘respecting’ existing information laws just to get out doing one simple, dutiful and respectful thing.

        Just TELL THE TRUTH.

        The whole thing reminds me of years ago when I went into West Point with a team of my people on a contract to upgrade their computers.

        As we walked into the building… you couldn’t help noticing what was written IN STONE above the archway of the building we were entering…

        “A Cadet shall NOT lie, cheat or steal… or TOLERATE ANYONE WHO DOES”.

        We were there to upgrade the hardware and the monitors all over the West Point Academy… but swap the existing hard-drives out of the old equipment and into the new… and make sure all the existing device-drivers understood the new hardware.

        At some point.. about halfway through the job… I had a ‘progress status’ meeting with a bunch of guys wearing uniforms.

        After telling them it was all going well and we would be finished AHEAD of schedule… I felt the need to mention one more thing to them.

        I said… “By the way… are you AWARE that every fucking computer is using a pirated copy of the Microsoft Windows Operating System? Every copy on every computer has the same serial number. Somebody just kept installing the same copy of Windows that was purchased under a SINGLE-USER License onto every fucking computer?”

        They ( all the guys sitting across the table in the uniforms ) just laughed.

        One of them ( A Captain ) said…

        “Of course we’re aware of that. What about it?”
        You think we’re actually gonna BUY copies of Window for all these damn personal computers? Give me a fucking break.”

        True story.

        • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

          PS: Yes… I DID report what we had found going on at West Point to BOTH Microsoft and the GAO ( General Accounting Office ).

          Nothing ever happened.

          We were offered a contract 2 years later to do a similar thing at the West Point Academy… and REFUSED it.

          That’s because I remember what their fucking BUILDING said…

          “A Cadet shall NOT lie, cheat or steal… or TOLERATE ANYONE WHO DOES”.

            • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

              Reply to Woodsman post on June 3, 2016 at 9:48 pm

              >> Woodsman said…
              >>
              >> They’re not rules but merely guidelines…

              We all know now ( thanks to Brendan ) that there are such things as ‘Hillbilly Rules’…

              Does that mean there are “Hillbilly Guidelines, too?”.

              LMFAO.

              By the way… the whole point of the story above was that regardless of what you read carved in STONE on buildings… or what people try to tell you some ‘profession’ automatically includes…

              …the people who flaunt the “Integrity” card actually do, VERY often, turn out to be the ones who have NONE AT ALL.

              Buyer beware.

          • Robert the Second says

            WTKTT,

            Thanks for sharing, It shows that you at least tried to do the right thing and that you have integrity.

            • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

              I actually couldn’t believe they asked for us BACK when it was time to upgrade their stupid PCs again. I never TOLD them I had reported them ( the entire fucking West Point Military Academy ) to Microsoft ( and the GAO )… so I guess the morons just never knew.

              The whole point of this is to remember what Joy has reminded us of.

              Holly Neill ( FAN of GMIHC )… are you still reading along?
              I’ll bet you ARE.

              Whenever you point a finger at someone… notice the THREE other fingers pointin’ “right back atcha”.

              I’m sorry you didn’t get your way with the PUBLIC agency known as ADOSH and get them to REWRITE or AMEND their official accident investigation report to turn the whole thing into a “more positive legacy for the GMIHC”… but it was fascinating watching you try.

            • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

              Reply to Robert the Second (RTS) post
              on June 3, 2016 at 9:54 pm

              >> RTS said…
              >>
              >> WTKTT,
              >>
              >> Thanks for sharing, It shows that you at least tried
              >> to do the right thing and that you have integrity.

              As I told Woodsman above… the whole point of the story above was that regardless of what you read carved in STONE on buildings… or what people try to tell you some ‘profession’ automatically includes…

              …the people who FLAUNT the “Integrity” card actually do, VERY often, turn out to be the ones who have NONE AT ALL.

              Buyer beware.

  16. Marti Reed says

    So I spent an hour and a half writing a comment that got stuck in moderation, and when I tried to copy and save it it froze my Safari up completely. So I will drink some coffee and try to rewrite it. Or some semblance of it. This is probably not going to be as good as my original comment.

    I believe that when we look at this whole “air support” thing, we need to keep in mind that, at that time, there was a Hail Mary Plan being conjured up and then implemented to put in a dozer line between the top of Glen Ilah, through a wash, to the road leading into the Boulder Springs Ranch. It included Gary Cordes ordering his Task Force Leader Trainee to send a couple of engines into Boulder Springs Ranch to bring the GMHS out from there “safely.” I also believe Paul Musser was in on that plan (but I have no evidence, other than circumstantial, to prove that).

    I think that when Eric heard that “air support ASAP” thing, he was thinking both of that plan, and the situation, in general. I don’t assume Abel was in on the Hail Mary Plan.

    Bravo 33, at that time, I think, was very much in communication with Todd Abel. Abel was directing the ground ops in the area where Bravo 33 was operating during that whole 40-minute period (that included the complicated split-VLAT drop), between when Abel assured Marsh he would send in air support ASAP –> AA Rory Collins –> Tom French, and when they actually moved in that direction.

    This is why I’m not willing to hang the “blame” on Bravo 33 for that 40-minute delay. And I’m not willing to say that Bravo 33 was “out of touch” with the Ground Operations. I think they were in touch with Ground Operations on the north side, while practically nobody had much of a clue what was going on on the south/Yarnell side. (Even though Cordes, Musser, and Sciacca were watching the fire from 89 at 4:05 PM).

    I think that, until we have access to the Air-2-Ground recording that I am 99.999999% sure exists somewhere, it is not possible to know, much less evaluate, what “caused” that 40-minute delay. But I don’t believe Bravo 33 is responsible for it.

    I agree with Bob Powers’ interpretation that a whole lot of the problem was caused by having an “Air Support Module” being put in the kind of situation they are not designed to be put in, especially on this kind of escalating fire. And the reason they were put in that kind of situation was that Rory Collins was, all day, calling out for a relief pilot that he was never supplied with.

    This is not as good as my comment that got lost in moderation. But it is the gyst of it.

    Oh, and PS, to Bob Powers, I disagree with what you are saying happened to the dozer, and I think you are imagining things about it, but that’s a different story. WTKTT is also imagining things related to it, but at least he says he’s imagineering. And, at this point, I’m kinda sorta in agreement with what he’s imagineering. I’m at least agreeing with WTKTT that Morin still had a radio (either the original one supplied to him by Trew or another supplied to him by Ball, all things considered), when this was happening.

    I seriously disagree with what you are imagineering. Because:

    The dozer disappeared for awhile as the fire was sweeping through Glen Ilah (probably taking a different road out than Cory Ball did), chaos ensued, and the dozer was then back in the area around 7:30-ish getting entangled in a power line (under somebody else’s supervision) and then the dozer operators were swapped and the dozer, after about midnight, put in the line opening up the way into the deployment site.

    And I agree with Joy. I wish we could disagree respectfully. Ad hominems and personal attacks don’t serve to move this important discussion forward, imho. I get frustrated, too, but I try to keep my heated reactions as much to myself as possible. I’m tired of the toxicity.

    Namaste, everybody.

    • Marti Reed says

      OK I managed to miraculously just find my original comment that got lost in moderation, and I’m going to repost it, because it’s a little more detailed and nuanced.

      Marti Reed` says JUNE 2, 2016 AT 4:41 PM

      Some thoughts regarding the topic of “Air Support.”

      I think the conversation regarding “sending Air Support ASAP” has to include the fact that there was a Last Ditch Hail Mary Plan to put in a dozer line between the north end of Glen Ilah and the road leading into the Boulder Springs Ranch being hatched. And that Granite Mountain was a part of that plan — witness Cordes instructing Esquibal to send an engine or two there to get them out safely.

      Given all that was going on at that time, I’m not assuming Abel was in on that plan. But I think Musser was.

      I do think that when Abel (probably, via the communiques WTKTT has documented) subsequently advised AA Rory Collins, who then advised Bravo 33 Lead Plane Pilot Tom French French to shift the focus to the Yarnell/SW part of the fire, he was thinking in general terms, not specific ones.

      Here’s where I get stuck.

      think Brave 33 was very much in communication with Todd Abel. Abel was the OPS on the ground in the area where Bravo 33 was “leading” all those aerial resources (including the VLAT) during all of that 40-minute period (including that two-prong VLAT drop), between when Abel told Marsh he would “send air support ASAP” and when Bravo 33 finally started to shift to Yarnell .

      I don’t think Bravo 33 was “out of touch” with the “resources on the ground.” I think they were very much in touch with Todd Abel. They may have been “out of touch” with what was happening on the south/Yarnell side of the fire, but not in the area where they were working at the time.

      I agree with Bob Powers’ description downstream of the problem with what happens when Aerial Support Modules are inserted into wildfires that are too big and complex for what they are designed for. And I think that’s part of what’s going on here.

      My cognitive dissonance here is around Todd Abel telling Marsh he will send “aerial support ASAP” and then, apparently telling AA Rory Collins to do that, and Rory Collins apparently telling Tom French to do that, and then, apparently, Todd Abel continuing to keep using Bravo 33 to continue doing what they were doing on the north side of the fire.

      Without the Air-2-Ground recording, which I 99.9999999% believe exists somewhere, I don’t believe it’s possible to develop a fair assessment of what was going on during this time, and I’m not willing to throw French and/or Burfiend under the bus for it. I don’t think they were that “out of touch” with what was going on on the ground in the area where they were working. I think a whole lot of people were out of touch in the area where the fire was, after it turned, heading.

      I think it’s possible that Eric interpreted what Abel said in both a general and maybe more specific way. I think Eric had, inside his head, the Last Ditch Hail Mary Plan to put in that dozer line (somewhat more specific) but even more so, just a general assumption that more aerial resources were going to be moving into the Yarnell/Glen Ilah area. I do think that influenced him.

      I don’t think any of this specifically had to do with anything regarding the deployment (except maybe in desperation, maybe).

      This is why I am not willing to dump a whole lot of blame on Bravo 33 for that 40-minute delay. Without the Air-2-Ground recording, I believe it’s not possible to really know what was going on regarding that.

      And maybe that’s why we don’t have that Air-2-Ground recording???? Who knows??????

    • Bob Powers says

      I first was only saying that was my educated guess based on what we have and what I know happens on Fire. If you want to class it as Imagineering it is just another scenario besides WTKTT as I have said its My position I do not agree with WTKTT position. Neither of us has any proof to support our point.

      The wire entanglement of the Power line was another Dozer not Morin’s Dozer.
      I believe that was a private contract Dozer I saw the name but did not wright it down.
      It is in the Equipment Resource orders. Other wise we would not be talking about what happened to him.

      As WTKTT has said The Dozer and Morin disappeared after Ball left him. What he did and where he went are open. How ever The Dozer must have returned to a County Yard it could be my guess of Congress or he could have gone to The main Yard. He did not die he did not burn up so I say he went home and parked it.

      Thanks for your positive input. I believe he left the Parking area rather than sit through a burn over he had the time.

      • Marti Reed says

        “The wire entanglement of the Power line was another Dozer not Morin’s Dozer.
        I believe that was a private contract Dozer I saw the name but did not wright it down.”

        With all due respect, I don’t believe that is accurate. The dozer with Morin was on contract during that time (as evidenced by the documents Joy provided us with). I have never seen any evidence of a “private contract Dozer” there at that time.

        And it was exactly that exact same dozer, under a different operator (as evidenced by the documentation Joy provided us with) that put in the line to the deployment site.

        • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

          >> Marti said…
          >>
          >> I have never seen any evidence of a “private contract Dozer”
          >> there at that time.

          The ‘May Machinery’ dozer that was ordered up for Yarnell is seen passing by the Eric Panebaker camera setup, and heading WEST on Hays Ranch Road toward the ICP, at exactly 4:36.10… just 3 minutes before Jesse Steed’s first MAYDAY was about to hit the Air-To-Ground radio channel.

          It happens at +5 minutes and 22 seconds into Panebaker Air Study video 20130630_1643_EP.

          This dozer does NOT match the one seen in photographs of the Yavapai County dozer that was working the south end of the fire that day ( and ended up ‘missing’ following the deployment ).

            • Marti Reed says

              And that was the same dozer that was seen and photographed staged at the Mountain-Air parking lot before that Air Study photo was taken.

              • Bob Powers says

                May Machinery was in fact the Contract dozer that was on a Equipment order on the 30th.

                A private contractor that was under Contract to Arizona State Fire.

                The County Dozer was put on contract with out a Red Carded Operator. For that morning do to the need.
                Use of County Equipment on a State Fire is not uncommon it was within its County’s Jurisdiction.

                They each have a serial # or Registration Number so that would say if the Dozers are the same or different.

                Morin Dozer the County one was Order # E-16 A D6R
                I will have to go back to the Orders to get the rest of the Info.
                I do believe we are working with 3 different Dozers and Operators.

                For a change I am with WTKTT that Morin’s County Dozer came up missing and did not show up latter.

                • Bob Powers says

                  OK What I found.

                  E-16 Cat D6R #Do3562 Yr.2003 County Dozer.

                  E-39 Cat D5 HWL Yr. 1996 AZAIS May Machinery

                  Found no other dozers ordered.
                  So maybe two.
                  There was some information on the one they used to build the Road to the deployment site by the person that
                  took it in cant remember who directed that.

                  I d not think it was either of the two above but no other info in the Resource orders.

                  • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

                    Bob… if you really are suddenly ‘starting from scratch’ and trying to figure out even how many dozers were in Yarnell on Sunday, June 30… 2013.

                    I recommend looking at the SAIT Investigations Notes.

                    Just search the document for the word ‘dozer’.

                    You will find TONS of references in there… not the least of which are…

                    1. The original statement from the DPS Officers in DPS Helicopter Ranger 58 that they were TOLD ( by someone… they never said WHO ) to search for 20-22 ‘missing’ persons following the deployment incident.. including a DOZER and its OPERATOR.

                    2. The exact times ( according to Cordes ) when the Yavapai County dozer was ORDERED ( 2:30 AM ), and when it arrived ( 8:00 – 9:00 AM ).

                    3. Exactly when Roy Hall says he first ordered a ‘dozer’ to start pushing a road out to the bodies ( 7:16 PM ). Sundown in Yarnell that day wasn’t until 7:47 PM.

                    Etc… etc….

                    • Bob Powers says

                      Thank you Mr. WTKTT
                      How ever I have another life to live and am not searching all the records which you are better at.

                      I know #1. I know #2. Thank you for #3.
                      Sun Down here in Idaho on June 30 is 2100.

                      So what Dozer got tangled in the Wire.

                      Morin signed off time at 2100 and Rezzonico started his Shift at midnight. a 3 hour break in operation. Just wondering where our lost Dozer was from 1700 to 2100. with Operator Morin?????

                    • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

                      Reply to Bob Powers post on
                      June 3, 2016 at 7:34 am

                      >> Bob Powers asked…
                      >>
                      >> So what Dozer got tangled in the Wire.

                      As I already said below… there is no definite proof regarding which dozer that was… but after many ( prior ) discussions about this, however, I believe the ‘consensus’ is still that…

                      1. The County Dozer that was working the SOUTH side of the fire all day on Sunday, June 30, 2013, remained on the SOUTH side throughout the evening and on into the next day ( July 1 )… and it WAS this same dozer that was used to push the road out to the deployment site.

                      2. Ditto for the ‘May Machinery’ dozer that was seen arriving on the NORTH side of the fire. It is believed it simply stayed on the NORTH side throughout the evening, since they were still also pushing dozer lines up there on the NORTH side where fire was also still active.

                      >> Bob Powers also aksed…
                      >>
                      >> Morin signed off time at 2100 and
                      >> Rezzonico started his Shift at
                      >> midnight. a 3 hour break in operation.
                      >> Just wondering where our lost Dozer
                      >> was from 1700 to 2100. with Operator
                      >> Morin????

                      That remains a good question… and there is no clear answer in the ( current ) evidence record.

                      Did Rezzonico just ‘arrive’ in Yarnell with a County pickup, swap out with Morin, and then Rezzonico tokk the dozer and Morin drove that County pickup back to wherever his own car started out that morning… or did Morin actually take the entire dozer and loboy back to where he started that morning, and then Rezzonico drove the whole kit-and-kaboodle BACK to Yarnell again?

                      We still don’t know ( yet ).

                      The former option seems more likely.

              • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

                Reply to Marti Reed post on June 2, 2016 at 8:23 pm

                >> Marti Reed said…
                >>
                >> And that was the same dozer that was seen
                >> and photographed staged at the Mountain-Air
                >> parking lot before that Air Study photo was taken.

                Yes. It was seen ‘wedged’ in there on the SOUTH side of that Mini-Mart parking lot in at least 2 different photos taken by 2 different people in roughly the same timeframe.

                I remember when those photos were found…. it was like… “Oh boy!… we finally found that frickin’ dozer that Paul Morin was driving! He left the south of the fire and just pulled into that Mini-Mart to get a coke and some twinkies! Hooray!”

                But closer inspection of those photographs appears to have proven that was NOT the case.

                That dozer that is ‘pulled into’ that Mini-Mart just south of where Hays Ranch Road intersects with Highway 89 does, in fact, seem to be the same ‘May Machinery’ dozer we would then see crossing the Panebaker Camera setup some minutes later and obviously headed for the ICP at the Model Creek Elementary School.

                There might be some SMALL fraction of a possibility left that the dozer seen parked there at the Mini-Mart *COULD* actually be Paul Morin and his County dozer… because it really is quite far from the camera in both photographs… but it remains MOST LIKELY that was just the ‘May Machinery’ dozer, instead.

                Maybe we should ‘revist’ those Mini-Mart photos. Dunno.

                • Marti Reed says

                  Nah. We went over those two dozers with several fine-toothed combs and determined they weren’t the same.

                  Frankly, I never thought they were the same.

                • Marti Reed says

                  Actually, what I REALLY thought was, “Dayum, how did they actually park that thing there that way?????”

                  • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

                    Ha!… yes… I remember thinking the same exact thing when I first saw those photos.

                    Did he BACK IN off Highway 89… or WHAT?

                    • Marti Reed says

                      LOL!!!

                      A YUUUGE truck and trailer came *this close* to shaving my front rear-view mirror off the other day. I just sat, powerlessly, on my horn, PO’d totally.

                      I’m amazed how they maneuver those things.

                      I’m pretty sure they backed it in.

      • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

        Reply to Bob Powers post on June 2, 2016 at 6:28 pm

        >> Bob Powers said…
        >>
        >> The wire entanglement of the Power line was another Dozer not Morin’s Dozer.

        That has never been proven one way or the other.

        >> Bob Powers also said…
        >>
        >> I believe that was a private contract Dozer
        >> I saw the name but did not wright it down.

        May Machinery, Bob.

        >> Bob Powers also said…
        >>
        >> The Dozer must have returned to a County Yard it could be my
        >> guess of Congress or he could have gone to The main Yard.
        >> He did not die he did not burn up so I say he went home and parked it.

        Nope.

        Already covered down below in this same chapter…

        http://www.investigativemedia.com/please-begin-yarnell-hill-chapter-xxi-here/#comment-334901

        ** THE DOZER ORDERS

        Here’s a ‘summary’ of the two ‘shifts’ that were worked on that dozer between 7:00 AM Sunday, June 30, 2013 and 2:00 PM Monday afternoon, July 1, 2013.

        Paul Morin had the first shift on that dozer there on the south end of the Yarnell Hill fire… and fellow Yavapai County Public Works employee Donald Rezzonico took the second shift starting at MIDNIGHT on June 30, 2013. Paul Morin had gone ‘off the clock’ at 9:00 PM that Sunday night, after working a 14 hour shift on the dozer.

        From the original bulldozer SHIFT records obtained by Joy Collura via an Arizona Open Records request…

        The Yavapai County dozer that was working the Yarnell Hill
        fire from 7:00 AM on June 30, 2013 until 2:00 PM on July 1, 2013…

        ——————————————————————————————-
        Dozer: Cat D7R / Serial # 06562 / From: Yavapai County

        Shift 1:
        START: June 30 – 0700 (7 AM)
        STOP: 2100 (9 PM)
        Hrs: 14
        Operator: Paul Morin

        Shift 2:
        START: July 1 – 0000 (Midnight)
        STOP: 1300 (2 PM)
        Hrs: 13
        Operator: Donald Rezzonico
        ——————————————————————————————–

        • Marti Reed says

          Thank you, WTKTT.

          I was thinking of asking you to post that. You read my mind. Or I read yours.

          • Bob Powers says

            Ok sounds good switched drivers that solves that part..
            Still Daylight in Arizona at 2100 June 30.
            Would have helped the discussion if we had had that a few days ago.
            So which Dozer got tangled in the power lines?? It was Dark then wasn’t it?

            Rezzonico put in the road to the Deployment site is that right?? He did not start till Mid Night.

            May Mich. could have been the one who got tangled. Only a thought????

            Morin was safe with the Dozer and Low Boy SOME WHERE………………………..

          • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

            I really can’t believe we are having to waste all this screen real-estate and go over all this again… just because someone can’t remember what has already been discussed over and over again.

            • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

              Actually… I take that back.
              I suppose a ‘lightning round’ on the dozer just to review what is or isn’t actually KNOWN is always useful.

              So ditto for the comment I made down below that this is a ‘ridiculous’ thread of conversation.

              Until we know EXACTLY what happened with that ‘dozer’… and what it’s involvement was ( or was NOT ) in what was actually happening on the afternoon of June 30, 2013… it is NOT any kind of ‘ridiculous thread of conversation’.

              It remains VERY important to ‘flush it out’ and ( some day ) KNOW that the real ( full) TRUTH is about this fucking Yavapai County dozer.

              • Marti Reed says

                I guess that will take another FOIA.

                Bob should be the one requesting it, since he’s the one insisting that it wasn’t the dozer with Morin operating it that got caught in the power line in Glen Ilah, before that same dozer put in the dozer line to the deployment spot.

                • Bob Powers says

                  Now you are back to me insisting.

                  I made a statement not a conclusion. Was it or was it not the May Dozer. or was it Morin???????

                  You both give others a full explanation but I am now outside your nice circle. That’s Ok I am searching to and I am not the sifting with a fine tooth comb or writing down all the records like you.

                  Ill be nice and say thank you. This is a forum and I am entitled to my thoughts.

                  I have no plans to Request any FOIA’s By the way.

                  We are searching for our own satisfaction. The State and FEDS. if you have not realized it are paying no attention to IM or us we are like one drop of water in a huge Lake.
                  They could care less. To them it is over.

                  • Woodsman says

                    Hey Bob,

                    I’m going to cover for an old wff from the old days now.

                    Confession: I get lost in all this shit sometimes like a cat hung up in utility lines. I get turned around & distracted. I’m guilty of a post here making me think of some other point which causes me to post a question & take a thread in a different direction. Sometimes (maybe most of the time) it has already been covered and WTKTT has to go over it for me again. It’s got to be frustrating but man, do I appreciate that.

                    I’m going to disagree with you on whether or not personnel from all the agencies involved monitor IM. I believe they do. I also believe that some of the material presented here helps them “take care of” information they didn’t think to cover-up before. But my personality is predisposed to distrust of people in general until shown otherwise…..so there’s that.

                    I think there is someone here who has figured out more of what happened that day & why than some people who were actually on the fire. Unless I just wanted to put my fingers in my ears about the whole thing as a participant at Yarnell Hill, I would be reading the hell out of this blog to figure out what happened. IM has changed the landscape in PR after a tragedy wildfire and it’s NOT going away. It won’t stop until ALL the information is out there. Even if JD put the lid on this forum, someone else would make one and keep going ahead.

                    Woodsman

                    • Bob Powers says

                      Right on

                      But I have come to the conclusion that the Current FS is even worse than the one I worked for.

                      You had to have one of those Fire Gods decide to take the side of the Grunt and pursue change. That happened occasionally.

                      To day I do not think there are any high ups that want to challenge the current system and change will be hard to do with out that support.
                      They do not have the Balls any more or the solid fire backgrounds to challenge Washington.

                      They have made up there minds and moved on accepting the SAIT.

                      Face Book Safety Matters told me I should go talk to the IC about the Horseshoe 2 fire.
                      You might check that out I think it was Holly replying.

    • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

      Reply to Marti Reed post on June 2, 2016 at 5:46 pm

      >> Marti said…
      >>
      >> I believe that when we look at this whole “air support” thing, we need
      >> to keep in mind that, at that time, there was a Hail Mary Plan being
      >> conjured up and then implemented to put in a dozer line between
      >> the top of Glen Ilah, through a wash, to the road leading into the
      >> Boulder Springs Ranch.

      As much as I believe you are right… and as much as I was the one pointing out how EASY it would have been to ‘connect’ the south end of the Sesame Area to that totally-cleared 20-30 foot wide existing firebreak that was the driveway all the way out to the BSR… I have to ‘check’ you ( us? ) on something.

      The following is all that Gary Cordes (supposedly) actually said to Cory Ball…

      From Blue Ridge Hotshot Cory Ball’s Unit Log…
      —————————————————————————–
      Structure group one assigns me and one other to locate possibility
      of dozer line to southwest of Yarnell.
      —————————————————————————–

      “southwest of Yarnell” means the WEST end of Glen Ilah… and near the Boulder Springs Ranch.

      “Structure group one” means ( of course ) Gary Cordes.

      We still don’t know who the “one other” is that Cory Ball specifically mentions receiving the same ‘assignment’ from SPGS1 Gary Cordes.

      Could have been Paul Morin ( the dozer operator ).
      Could have been Eric Marsh himself.
      Could have been another Blue Ridge Hotshot.
      Could have been… ( we don’t know… only Cory Ball or Gary Cordes can say ).

      But there is ( and always has been ) just that phrase “possibility of dozer line” sitting there, as well.

      So it still has to be considered that at the time Gary Cordes TOLD Cory Ball to go ‘scout that’… there was no SPECIFIC plan… just a GENERAL plan.

      Cory Ball, of course, never even got the chance to DO this “scouting”.

      But it really does sound like that Gary Cordes himself had no SPECIFIC instructions for Cory Ball. Just a GENERAL instruction to “go see if you can find something”.

      >> Marti also said…
      >>
      >> It included Gary Cordes ordering his Task Force Leader Trainee to send
      >> a couple of engines into Boulder Springs Ranch to bring the GMHS out
      >> from there “safely.”

      There is still NO QUESTION that Gary Cordes knew EXACTLY where Granite Mountain was headed that afternoon… and that at the same time everyone was evacuating from the Shrine area Cordes apparently believed that Granite Mountain might have ALREADY MADE IT to the Boulder Springs Ranch.

      >> Marti also said…
      >>
      >> I also believe Paul Musser was in on that plan (but I have no evidence,
      >> other than circumstantial, to prove that).

      Paul Musser called Marsh at 3:42 PM from the Sickles Ranch Road area.
      NINE minutes later… we see him passing Eric Panebaker’s camera, at exactly 3:51 PM, headed for Yarnell and his ‘roadside meeting’ with Gary Cordes.
      At the speed he was traveling when he passed the camera ( 20-30 mph ), he must have reached Gary Cordes there on the side of Highway 89 in another 3 – 5 minutes.
      His FILMED ( by Jake Guadiana ) meeting with Cordes there on the side of Highway 89 at 4:06 PM ( if you accept the 10 minute time dial-back for all of Guadiana’s photos/videos ).

      If Paul Musser was not fully aware of what Gary Cordes either had planned or had ALREADY ‘set-in-motion’… then you can be sure by the time he exited the passenger side of Gary Cordes’ truck ( circa 4:10 PM )… and headed down to Shrine road… he certainly KNEW it from THAT timeframe forward.

      There has never been a full description/accounting of that ‘meeting’ between SPGS1 Gary Cordes and OPS2 Paul Musser.

      BOTH of them just described it to investigators in the simplest possible terms… with just a vague idea of what was discussed… and no investigator had the skills to query either of them further about what REALLY went on or what was said/planned.

      >> Marti also said…
      >>
      >> I think that when Eric heard that “air support ASAP” thing, he was
      >> thinking both of that plan, and the situation, in general. I don’t assume
      >> Abel was in on the Hail Mary Plan.

      Maybe not at first… but I would still put SOME money down that says that really is OPS1 Todd Abel talking to Marsh ( and apparently urging him to “Hurry” ) in the 4:27 PM YARNELL-GAMBLE video.

      >> Marti also said…
      >>
      >> Bravo 33, at that time, I think, was very much in communication with
      >> Todd Abel. Abel was directing the ground ops in the area where
      >> Bravo 33 was operating during that whole 40-minute period (that
      >> included the complicated split-VLAT drop), between when Abel
      >> assured Marsh he would send in air support ASAP –> AA Rory
      >> Collins –> Tom French, and when they actually moved in that direction.
      >>
      >> This is why I’m not willing to hang the “blame” on Bravo 33 for
      >> that 40-minute delay. And I’m not willing to say that Bravo 33
      >> was “out of touch” with the Ground Operations. I think they were in
      >> touch with Ground Operations on the north side, while practically
      >> nobody had much of a clue what was going on on the south/Yarnell
      >> side. (Even though Cordes, Musser, and Sciacca were watching the
      >> fire from 89 at 4:05 PM).
      >>
      >> I think that, until we have access to the Air-2-Ground recording that I
      >> am 99.999999% sure exists somewhere, it is not possible to know,
      >> much less evaluate, what “caused” that 40-minute delay. But I don’t
      >> believe Bravo 33 is responsible for it.

      Something else to “hold in your mind” here when considering all this.

      At 3:55 PM is when Gary Cordes called OPS1 Todd Abel on his cellphone and ASKED Abel to PLEASE tell ‘Air Support’ to IMMEDIATELY start “Dropping at will” anywhere they could in and around Yarnell to try and save anything they could… while there was still time.

      Cordes had to call Abel to tell him to IMMEDIATELY relay that to ‘Air Support’ because Cordes had lost his own ability to TRANSMIT on the Air-To-Ground channel.

      So let’s say OPS1 Todd Abel did that.

      That means that by 3:56 PM… and BEFORE Air Attack Rory Collins actually left the Air Space… there had now been TWO calls ( just 5 minutes apart ) from the overall Ground Operations Supervisor ( Todd Abel ) making it clear to ‘Air Support’ that the situation on the YARNELL side was now critical… and they needed to refocus the ‘Air Support’ to that side of the fire IMMEDIATELY… because the ‘window of opportunity’ was closing ‘down there’.

      But then… the same man ( Todd Abel )… would suddenly decided to ‘hog’ the Air Support just to try and protect a few empty houses on Miner’s Camp Road?

      Something just doesn’t ‘compute’ there.

      Is it POSSIBLE that Todd Abel, himself, was so clueless about what resources were actually ‘in the air’ over Yarnell at that time that he thought just asking for a few drops to continue there on HIS little Miner’s Camp Road project was NOT affecting their ability to actually turn their attention to Yarnell… as HE had already told them to do ( TWICE in a 5 minute period circa 3:5o to 3:55 PM )?

      I don’t know… but I hear what you are saying.

      I’m just trying to fathom how the same guy ( OPS1 Todd Abel ) who had been making it CLEAR to ‘Air Support’ they needed to ‘shift focus’ to YARNELL… circa 3:50 PM… could have then been responsible for them not even turning their attention to it for another 40 ( FORTY ) minutes.

      • Marti Reed says

        We’re on the same cognitive dissonance (and my cognitive dissonance is currently quite serious) page. Which is precisely why I wrote this. Thus, thanks for responding.

        It’s the job of “air support” to carry out what “ground support” asks them to do, and not the other way around.

        That’s why I find it hard to believe that Bravo 33 kept working on “protecting” “the structures” in the area OPS Abel was also working in, without that being in some kind of coordination with Abel. I have a hard time believing that was all happening without Abel knowing it.

        I mean they flew a fricken DC10 twice over that area laying a retardant line in that area without OPS Abel knowing about it or having anything to do with it????? I just find that really, really difficult to believe.

        In spite of what Gary Cordes said to him.

        Namaste.

        • Marti Reed says

          Which is why I repeat that I don’t think we can really know what was going on during all of that time, much less evaluate it without the Air-2-Ground recording which I’m 99.99999% sure exists somewhere.

          I think there has to be a reason we don’t have access to that recording.

          My Tin Foil Hat Proudly Perched On My Head..

          • Bob Powers says

            Air to ground is Air Attack in a seperiate plane normally.

            They were both in the Lead Plane. and working two different Frequencies
            That may be why we do not have Air To Ground.

            Again for clarity just a thought not putting together a story. .

            If it was a Air study recordings in may have not included Ground conversations. Lead Plane dose a lot of talking to all air craft on site that may have been what the study was about and recording the Pilot if he talked to ground not normal then that would have recorded as well

            • Marti Reed says

              You could be absolutely correct.

              It still doesn’t make any sense to me.

              Why would they be studying the efficacy of Aerial Retardant placement (which is what I thought this whole program was all about) without recording the communications between Air and Ground?

              That just doesn’t make any sense to me. But I’m just nothing but a humble tax-paying citizen.

              (who has to keep deleting “http://deleted” every time I post a comment here.

              • Bob Powers says

                I am still trying to figure out what they were studying.

                If they wanted to know effectiveness they should have been filming the drops.

                Recording Radio Traffic.

                Using for training.

                Who knows with out any objectives??????

                I am trying to check that out thru local FS.

                So far no one has a clue not looking good on that level.

                • Muzzy says

                  Hi Bob,

                  This is probably the most important question, “What were they studying?” If the study was evaluating human factors, it veers into psychology, meaning that they would be vague or even dissembling about the purpose of the study to avoid skewing the results.

                  If it was an audit looking for contract fraud, they might also try to obscure the true purpose to capture the behavior they suspected.

                  Maybe they were studying the effects of having a lead pilot and AA in the same plane.

                  In any case, if there is even a tiny chance that the study negatively impacted management or operations, precipitating the fatal event, I predict you will have trouble finding it.

      • Marti Reed says

        OK I’m just gonna imagineer (hypothesize) this out a little further.

        You wrote:

        “If Paul Musser was not fully aware of what Gary Cordes either had planned or had ALREADY ‘set-in-motion’… then you can be sure by the time he exited the passenger side of Gary Cordes’ truck ( circa 4:10 PM )… and headed down to Shrine road… he certainly KNEW it from THAT timeframe forward.”

        I agree with that.

        The VLAT split was around 4:15. I still think that drop had to have been done with Abel’s knowledge and approval, or even request.

        So now, I’m wondering if it’s possible/impossible etc that Abel, knowing Musser was moving south to take over the Yarnell area, was waiting for Musser to take over before actually releasing the aerial resources he was using to do what he was doing until Musser was there to take charge of them?

        (Regardless of what he said to Marsh and regardless of what Cordes asked him to do — and I think Cordes’ “time-stamping” of things in his ADOSH interview is fairly off).

        It just seems to me possible to probable that one OPS might, all things considered, given the general chaos that was unfolding, decide to want to wait a bit (regardless of what he said to Marsh etc) to “hand off” “his” Air Support (while he was trying to finish off what he was doing using that Air Support) in order to “hand off” that Air Support to the other OPS, rather than just release them to “free float” wherever (what Gary Cordes was asking for — and we all know how qualified Cordes was – ahem – for the job he was doing) without someone he trusted on the ground to direct them?

        That’s currently what I’m thinking.

        Again, I don’t think we can really flesh this out without the Air-2-Ground recording.

        • Marti Reed says

          PS I agree with pretty much everything you have written here, other than what I have replied to.

          Regarding “the plan.”

          I agree that Cordes (inside of his own head) probably had no clue as to where, exactly, the dozer line should go.

          I also think that it’s rather possible that, as we mapped it out on Google Earth, the most feasible place to put it would have been from where the dozer was staged, through that wash, and then over to the road leading into Boulder Springs Ranch.

          Cordes would most likely not have known that.

          But I agree with what you wrote way back when, that Eric, looking at the scene from way up above and then asking Brian Frisby to come all the way up to the anchor area (for what else?????) may very well have been looking at that area and imagineering where to put that line in.

          I don’t think that route was inside of Cordes’ head, but I would bet major dollars it was basically inside of Eric’s head.

          Can we pleeze haz the un-redacted Blue Ridge notes and the Air-2-Ground recording????? At the very least???

          • Bob Powers says

            I am still not bought in on this hail may plan it was just to late in the burn period and when things were going to hell.

            But keep looking—– You will never hear it from Cordes EVER

      • Woodsman says

        WTKTT,

        you said:

        “But then… the same man ( Todd Abel )… would suddenly decided to ‘hog’ the Air Support just to try and protect a few empty houses on Miner’s Camp Road?

        Something just doesn’t ‘compute’ there.”

        Maybe it wasn’t Abel that was hogging the air support to protect a few empty houses on Miner’s Camp Rd. What other personnel in a supervisory role were working in that area that would have the authority to direct drops? Where was Willis working at the time?

        Woodsman

        • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

          In the timeframe in question… ( 3:50 PM up to time of deployment, circa 4:43 PM )… Todd Abel was supervising the protection of just a few empty structures in the Miner’s Camp Road area… and Darrell Willis was supervising some burnouts and other things happening in the Model Creek Road aarea. There really were no ‘structures’ at threat right there on that stretch of Model Creek Road where Willis was working… but there is no question that if the fire had kept burning to the north and it had jumped over Model Creek Road… the entire community itself would have been in a heap-o-trouble.

          But it was also Darrell Willis who told ADOSH that even the drops that were happening in his area did NOT make much difference, in the end.

          According to Willis… it was ONLYbthe actual wind shift and reversal that kept Peeples Valley from ending up looking like Glen Ilah eventually did.

      • Marti Reed says

        “I would still put SOME money down that says that really is OPS1 Todd Abel talking to Marsh ( and apparently urging him to “Hurry” ) in the 4:27 PM YARNELL-GAMBLE video.”

        I woke up too early, and I’m about to go back to bed but I was re-reading your comment in more detail and ended up focusing on THIS. I know I think you’ve said this before but I didn’t believe it. So I just kind of passed it by. Until now.

        And I thought “STOP!!!!”

        It doesn’t make sense to me. Contextually speaking. Which is why I have passed it over.

        That being said, I do think you are the most savvy person we have regarding voices. So you think that sounds like Todd Abel? How does that sound like Todd Abel? What are you comparing it to?

        I’m not contesting this. I’m just openly asking.

        I have basically (confessing my confirmation bias which has got me into trouble before) “assumed” that Todd Abel was mostly focused on what was going on and what he was doing and what he was in charge of and what he was organdizing on the north end of the fire during this period of time (which plays into my thinking regarding the 40-minute delay regarding “air support.”)

        I wasn’t assuming he was all that “in on” the “Hail Mary Plan.” Or, if he even was, as I’m trying to “imagineer” it right now, I would think he would have assumed Paul Musser would have been the one more invested in “paying attention” to it. It just wasn’t “his territory” at that time. That’s been my thinking.

        Also, in my mind, Paul Musser was his senior “in the pecking order.” Why would Abel “intervene” like that in something that would, at that point, have been “in Musser’s territory,” so to speak?

        Which makes me now wonder. Could that possibly be the reason for the obfuscation regarding what what’s his name (I’m falling back asleep as I’m writing) said to the families regarding there being no radio on that video? Because I’m sure some of the people connected to those families were pretty familiar with Todd Abel’s voice, given his involvement with the Academy, etc.

        Hmmmmm, quite intriguing, and something I’m going to do some more thinking about.

        • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

          With regards to the voice at the start of the Yarnell-Gamble video… in my opinion… it still COULD be Todd Abel simply because it SOUNDS like him.

          Especially the way this speaker is using “Ah” and “Umm”.

          Nobody else on any other radio capture uses ” Ah” and “Umm” the way Todd Abel did… and I believe that same vocal signature is heard right there at the start of that Yarnell-Gamble video.

  17. WantsToKnowTheTruth says

    **
    ** ARIZONA FORESTRY EMPLOYEE WOLFGANG GRUNBERG TOLD
    ** ARIZONA FORESTRY’S DEUPTY DIRECTOR JOY HERNBRODE
    ** THAT THE YARNELL-GAMBLE VIDEO HAD NO RADIO CAPTURES IN IT

    As part of the ‘written questions’ being submitted by Granite Mountain Family Members prior to the February 5, 206 settlement-mandated ‘Question and Answer’ day… one of the repeating questions from many family members had to do with the YARNELL-GAMBLE video, presumably shot by Blue Ridge Hotshot Ronald Gamble, at 4:27 PM on Sunday, June 30, 2013.

    They ( family members ) wanted to know WHY the Arizona Forestry subcontracted SAIT Investigation ( Co-Led by USFS employee Mike Dudley and Florida State Forester Jim Karels ) had totally neglected to even MENTION this video in their investigation report.

    This one piece of evidence ( that had always been in the SAIT’s possession ) was, in and of itself, proof that the SAIT’s story about there having been NO direct communications with Eric Marsh between 4:04 PM and 4:37 PM was bullshit.

    They also wanted to know WHO it was that Eric Marsh was talking to, at 4:27 PM, and seemed to know where Granite Mountain was supposed to be by then and was telling Eric Marsh to “Hurry them up”. That is when we hear Eric Marsh offer the explanation of why they weren’t where this other person thought they should be by then as “…They’re comin’ from the heel of the fire”. ( As in… they had a long way to come and they are still on the way ).

    Here we see Arizona Forestry Deputy Director ( Administration ) Joy Hernbrode reaching out to fellow Arizona Forestry employee Wolfgang Grunberg for HELP regarding how to answer these questions from family members about that YARNELL-GAMBLE video.

    NOTE: Wolfgang Grunberg’s actual JOB with Arizona Forestry is “Project Coordinator, Urban and Community Forestry”… but it appears Gunberg has ‘computer skills’ and he became the ‘keeper of the SAIT evidence and photos and videos’ following the termination of the SAIT investigation.

    Wolfgang comes back to Joy and tells her there is NO AUDIO on the YARNELL-GAMBLE video that has always been in Arizona Forestry’s possession.

    ———————————————————————————–
    From: Joy Hernbrode
    Sent: Wednesday, January 27, 2016 1:40 PM
    To: Wolfgang Grunberg
    Subject: Yarnell

    Wolfgang: Do we have any audio from 6/30 at 16:27?

    I have a couple of questions from the family about it and I don’t
    remember anything from that time frame. Thanks!

    Joy L. Hernbrode

    Deputy Director, Administrative Services
    Arizona State Forestry
    1110 W. Washington St., Suite 100
    Phoenix, AZ 85007
    Direct: (602) 542‐4490
    ————————————————————————————–

    And here is Wolfgang Grunberg’s response to Joy Herbrode…

    ————————————————————————————–
    From: Wolfgang Grunberg
    Sent: Thursday, January 28, 2016 8:16 AM
    To: Joy Hernbrode
    Subject: RE: Yarnell
    Hi Joy,

    This is what I could find in our notes but I would like to consult Paul in
    case there is some video we should double check.

    – Starting at ca. 1633: radio transmissions between DIVS A and Bravo 33
    recorded by USDA FS (Prescott National Forest) firefighter helmet cam

    – 1626: video of BR IHC Crew Carrier leaving shrine area – no radio (recorded by USDA FS).

    – Starting or ending at 1628 (have to double check): retardant drop study
    video (20130630_1628_EP.MOV) with, what appears to be, air to air radio
    communication ( mostly Air Attack but also B33, Ground Contact Alpha, …).
    Mentions “heck of a wind shift… we got a lot of fire heading towards Yarnell ”
    at minute 02:45.

    Ciao, WG

    Wolfgang Grunberg
    Project Coordinator, Urban and Community Forestry
    Arizona State Forestry
    (602) 399‐1886
    WolfgangGrunberg@azsf.gov
    ————————————————————————————–

    So this is Wolfgang rerring specifically to the YARNELL-GAMBLE video…

    – 1626: video of BR IHC Crew Carrier leaving shrine area – no radio (recorded by USDA FS).

    He tells Joy Hernbrode there is NO RADIO TRAFFIC recorded in the video.

    That is, of course, a COMPLETE LIE.

    Some other things to NOTE about what AZF employee Wolfgang Grunberg was telling Joy…

    – Starting at ca. 1633: radio transmissions between DIVS A and Bravo 33
    recorded by USDA FS (Prescott National Forest) firefighter helmet cam

    Wolfgang is referencing the original “Helmet Cam Video”, which we now know was video filename M2U00265… and just one of 21 separate videos that the SAIT always had in their possession shot by off-the-radar hire Aaron Hulburd ( of the Prescott National Forest ).

    But notice that Wolfgang is still incorrectly quoting the 1633 ( 3:33 PM ) start time of the written transcript for this video, as supplied by US Forestry when that video was released in December of 2013. Even the README.TXT file that accompanied that video from US Forestry SAID that they knew the transcript time was WRONG… and that the time of Jesse Steed’s first MAYDAY call was actually 6 minutes later… at 1639 ( 4:39 PM ).

    – Starting or ending at 1628 (have to double check): retardant drop study video (20130630_1628_EP.MOV) with, what appears to be, air to air radio communication ( mostly Air Attack but also B33, Ground Contact Alpha, …). Mentions “heck of a wind shift… we got a lot of fire heading towards Yarnell ” at minute 02:45.

    Wolfgang is referencing the 3:50 PM Air-To-Air Radio channel capture where we hear Air Attack Rory Collins TELLING Lead Plane pilot Thomas French to shift the ‘Air Support’ priorities to the YARNELL side of the fire. It’s also where we hear Thomas French agree to do that… and he tells Collins he is (quote) “Headed that way”.

    But Rory Collins then left the fire… and Thomas French decided ( himself ) to NOT do what he told Collins he would do for another 35 to 40 minutes.

    The BOTTOM LINE here ( from these emails )… is that it would appear ( following this email from Wolfgang ) that Joy Hernbrode waltzed into that Q/A meeting and her ‘official’ answer to all the questions from the family members about the YARNELL-GAMBLE video was one ( or both ) of the following…

    1. We don’t seem to have any video captured at 4:27 PM, so I’m afraid I don’t know what you are talking about.

    2. We DO have a video that appears to show someone sitting in a Blue Ridge Crew Carrier around 4:26 PM… but this video had NO RADIO CAPTURES in it.

    And she ( apparently ) got away with it.

    Unbelievable.

    • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

      Followup…

      And when Grunberg tells Joy Hernbrode…

      “This is what I could find in our notes but I would like to consult Paul in
      case there is some video we should double check.”

      …Grunberg is, of course, referring to Paul Musser.

      Other recently released emails now prove that the man who was ‘Planning OPS 2’ at the Yarnell Hill Fire ( Paul Musser ), had… after the tragedy… been working closely with both Arizona Forestry AND the Arizona Attorney General’s office to help them combat the lawsuits coming from the Granite Mountain family members.

    • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

      Second followup…

      Forgot to mention…

      When Wolfgang Grunberg WROTE the following to Joy Hernvrode…

      – Starting or ending at 1628 (have to double check): retardant drop study video (20130630_1628_EP.MOV) with, what appears to be, air to air radio communication ( mostly Air Attack but also B33, Ground Contact Alpha, …). Mentions “heck of a wind shift… we got a lot of fire heading towards Yarnell ” at minute 02:45.

      NOTICE that he is putting a ‘timestamp’ on this radio transmission when Air Attack Rory Collins was talking to his Lead Plan pilot Thomas French of 1628 ( 4:28 PM ).

      He is OFF by 38 minutes.

      That conversation between Rory Collins and Thomas French that he was mentioning to Joy Herbrode actually took place at 3:50 PM.

      And THIS is the guy who was the ‘technical consultant’ being used by Jeff Whitney and Joy Hernbrode of Arizona Forestry to try and prepare answers for the Granite Mountain family members, as the legal settlement REQUIRED them to do.

      Unbelievable ( Yes… I just have that word on a Function Key Macro now so I don’t have to keep typing it all the time ).

      • Marti Reed says

        “And THIS is the guy who was the ‘technical consultant’ being used by Jeff Whitney and Joy Hernbrode of Arizona Forestry to try and prepare answers”

        He should have hired us. We were two years ahead of them.

        While I’ve been privately bitching about doing all this work for some lawyers for free.

        • Woodsman says

          I often believe that as points are uncovered and deliberated here at IM, the PTB say: “Thank you very much, that’s helpful,” and delete part of the paper trail that they hadn’t thought of before.

          Woodsman

      • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

        Wolfgang… Wolfgang… help… help…
        Families want to know who was talking to Marsh at 4:27 PM!!!!!

        Joy… Joy… not to worry.
        There is no AUDIO on that video. Problem solved.

        • Marti Reed says

          At least on Daily Kos I can post this big ole “triple face-palm” image that I have in my DKos Image Library. Unfortunately, I can’t do that here.

          But if I could, I would.

          So you have to just imagine it, instead.

      • Marti Reed says

        I still haven’t hooked up my hard drives, but, off the top of my head, I think we were down-loading that video (complete with it’s audio complete with the radio captures) and discussing it fairly early in fricken 2014.

        I get it that the families hate us because we are, by attempting to scour the record as honestly as possibly (while attempting to deal with our own confirmation biases), putting some serious blame on Marsh and Steed for what happened.

        But we’ve also been trying to honestly (I know I have) and relentlessly answer the exact same questions that, apparently, they’re asking.

        We’ve been asking FOR OVER TWO YEARS who is saying that in the Gamble video. We’ve been asking FOR OVER TWO YEARS who is asking “Waz yo status?”

        We’ve been asking FOR ALMOST THREE YEARS who else on this fire was setting the stage for this complete debacle and participating/enabling in its unfolding.

        And, then, documenting the ongoing BS involved in attempting to make sure that the facts involved in that wouldn’t see the light of day.

        It took us OVER TWO YEARS to figure out (thanks to Joy’s help) that there was an attempt to put in a Last Minute Hail Mary plan to put in a dozer line from Glen Ilah to the Boulder Springs Ranch that included Gary Cordes, (probably) Paul Musser, Cory Ball, the dozer, and Granite Mountain.

        We were the ones to scour the interviews and figure out that Bravo 3 figured out, by 12:30 PM, that the fire was going to reverse direction that afternoon and attack Yarnell. And who, instead of communicating that to anybody that mattered, warned fricken Lance Marquez of it, who didn’t pass that on to anybody who mattered, either. And then they spent an hour or so, in apparent isolation of anybody who mattered, putting in an ineffectual retardant line that was easily burned over later that afternoon.

        And, yes, we get off on our tangents and our arguments and our rants. And I hate the ad hominems.

        And often we “wander off” into what WTKTT wisely calls “imagineering” because that’s what we have to do. Wonder about what, given what we know via the evidence, MIGHT have been happening. That’s how the scientific method works. You take what you know, create a hypothesis, and then test it.

        Yes, we have a lot of unproven theories out there, in our heads and in the comments. But at least we’re trying to honestly figure it out.

        While, apparently, vis a vis this totally stupid statement by this guy, the PTB are scrambling as fast (and as incoherently) as they can to keep trying to hide the truth.

        And all we want is to stop wildland fire-fighters from getting killed and getting themselves killed. I really have no ulterior motives. I just don’t understand what’s so wrong with that.

        End of rant.

        • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

          Reply to Marti Reed post on June 2, 2016 at 7:10 pm

          >> Marti Reed said…
          >>
          >> But we’ve also been trying to honestly (I know I have) and
          >> relentlessly answer the exact same questions that, apparently,
          >> they’re asking.

          Wait until you see the ACTUAL ( full ) list of questions that were submitted ( in writing ) to Arizona Forestry for the settlement-mandated ‘Q/A’ day, which took place ‘in secret’ on February 5, 2016.

          MOST of the ‘questions’ from family members and their attorneys were coming right from this ongoing PUBLIC Forum.

  18. Marti Reed` says

    Some thoughts regarding the topic of “Air Support.”

    I think the conversation regarding “sending Air Support ASAP” has to include the fact that there was a Last Ditch Hail Mary Plan to put in a dozer line between the north end of Glen Ilah and the road leading into the Boulder Springs Ranch being hatched. And that Granite Mountain was a part of that plan — witness Cordes instructing Esquibal to send an engine or two there to get them out safely.

    Given all that was going on at that time, I’m not assuming Abel was in on that plan. But I think Musser was.

    I do think that when Abel (probably, via the communiques WTKTT has documented) subsequently advised AA Rory Collins, who then advised Bravo 33 Lead Plane Pilot Tom French French to shift the focus to the Yarnell/SW part of the fire, he was thinking in general terms, not specific ones.

    Here’s where I get stuck.

    I think Brave 33 was very much in communication with Todd Abel. Abel was the OPS on the ground in the area where Bravo 33 was “leading” all those aerial resources (including the VLAT) during all of that 40-minute period (including that two-prong VLAT drop), between when Abel told Marsh he would “send air support ASAP” and when Bravo 33 finally started to shift to Yarnell .

    I don’t think Bravo 33 was “out of touch” with the “resources on the ground.” I think they were very much in touch with Todd Abel. They may have been “out of touch” with what was happening on the south/Yarnell side of the fire, but not in the area where they were working at the time.

    I agree with Bob Powers’ description downstream of the problem with what happens when Aerial Support Modules are inserted into wildfires that are too big and complex for what they are designed for. And I think that’s part of what’s going on here.

    My cognitive dissonance here is around Todd Abel telling Marsh he will send “aerial support ASAP” and then, apparently telling AA Rory Collins to do that, and Rory Collins apparently telling Tom French to do that, and then, apparently, Todd Abel continuing to keep using Bravo 33 to continue doing what they were doing on the north side of the fire.

    Without the Air-2-Ground recording, which I 99.9999999% believe exists somewhere, I don’t believe it’s possible to develop a fair assessment of what was going on during this time, and I’m not willing to throw French and/or Burfiend under the bus for it. I don’t think they were that “out of touch” with what was going on on the ground in the area where they were working. I think a whole lot of people were out of touch in the area where the fire was, after it turned, heading.

    I think it’s possible that Eric interpreted what Abel said in both a general and maybe more specific way. I think Eric had, inside his head, the Last Ditch Hail Mary Plan to put in that dozer line (somewhat more specific) but even more so, just a general assumption that more aerial resources were going to be moving into the Yarnell/Glen Ilah area. I do think that influenced him.

    I don’t think any of this specifically had to do with anything regarding the deployment (except maybe in desperation, maybe).

    This is why I am not willing to dump a whole lot of blame on Bravo 33 for that 40-minute delay. Without the Air-2-Ground recording, I believe it’s not possible to really know what was going on regarding that.

    And maybe that’s why we don’t have that Air-2-Ground recording???? Who knows??????

  19. Muzzy says

    This is an extension of the thread below concerning the 2011 Bull Fire Entrapment, in which helitack were instructed that if needed they should pull a Wag Dodge and burn out their own safety zone. As absurdly funny as that was, I noticed another lesson learned was:

    Start operations earlier. Why can’t pilots get up early?

    I thought it was a peculiarity of the YHF that they got such a late start, but now I see otherwise. It may be my provincialism, but the monsoon is such a strong influence on fire and occurs fairly regularly, especially in southern Arizona, schedules should work around it.

    Is there a practical reason why operations can’t start at dawn? Then they can plan to be off the mountain by 1400 and still have an hour or two margin of error. Starting at 1030 is just stupid.

      • Woodsman says

        Muzzy,

        Thanks for the cheer, haha!

        Good point on catching the late start to air resources. I saw that too.

        Woodsman

    • Rocksteady says

      Most Ops and Air Branch want to have the fleet available during the peak of the burning period in case something buggers off.

      However a smart ic would have the machines flying at dawn, putting down water, when most effective…

      Did all of the heli support or air tankers do any significant good at 16:30 on June 30th????

      Maybe, but at 07:00 would have been much better, imho

    • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

      Reply to Muzzy post on June 2, 2016 at 3:03 pm

      >> Muzzy said…
      >>
      >> Starting at 1030 is just stupid.

      I agree… but just for the record… Air Attack Rory Collins told the SAIT investigators that he left Deer Valley ( near Phoenix ) for Yarnell at 7:50 AM on the morning of Sunday, June 30, 2013. That puts him in Yarnell not long after 8:00 AM that morning.

      10:30 AM is about the time he was directing the SEATS that were in Yarnell to dump all over Eric Marsh and Granite Mountain’s ‘indirect burnouts’ up by the anchor point.

      ADOSH was NEVER allowed to interview Rory Collins.

      From Rory Collins’ SAIT Interview notes.
      ——————————————————————–
      Interview with: Rory Collins – Air Attack – LDF – Roseburg – 11:00 a.m. 7/13/2013

      SAIT Interviewers: Jimmy Rocha, Jay Kurth, Mike Dudley, Jim Karels

      Certified ATGS
      Work for Douglas Forest Service as Protection Supervisor

      July 30 – Took off from Deer Valley around 7:50 to the fire. I had worked the previous day also. I got to the fire and it was 200-300 acres. When I left the evening before, it was 40-50 acres. I reported the growth to Arizona dispatch.

      Etc… etc…
      ————————————————————————

      • Muzzy says

        Hi WTKTT,

        Yes, you’re correct about Yarnell. The 1030 remark referenced the Bull fire.

        But even 0800 is late. Dawn that time of year is about 0500. That’s a lot of time with mild winds. I wonder how many acres the fire was then. Of course, Collins needed sleep, so it would have needed someone else.

        But it isn’t just air support. Hotshots were in place about 0800, briefings were later than that, DIVS Z arrived around noon. Again, part of the problem was team turnover and staffing difficulty. Nevertheless, the weather was right on schedule.

        Honestly, I’m beginning to think that the only time to fight fire in Arizona is in the winter, doing fuel reduction, notifying homeowners that their non-defensible homes will burn in a fire should one arise, and planning evacuation routes and shelter locations for displaced residents. Of course, there isn’t a politician or administrator in the world who would sign that press release ?

        • Marti Reed says

          Ayep, I almost completely agree with what you said. Sez this resident of New Mexico.

          But really, I think we need a complete re-think about how these fires are fought.

          Yarnell was bad enough on Sunday. But even worse on Saturday. They didn’t even get a crew on the ground on the fire until practically noon. Noon????

          I’m not as incensed about what happened Friday night as Sonny (righteously) is. What happened on Saturday, however, is just painfully incompetent, imho, all over the place.

          • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

            On Saturday, June 29, 2013….

            1. There were 40 ( FORTY ) firefighters right there in the Yarnell Hill Fire Station parking lot by 8:00 AM. ( Yuma and Lewis DOC crews ).

            2. ALL of them were ( supposedly ) fully qualified Type 2 Initial Attack crews with the ability to ‘hike’ to a work location, if necessary.

            3. Only SIX out those FORTY were initially sent up to work on the actual Yarnell Hill Fire… but even they weren’t actually working on the fire until very late morning… HOURS after they had arrived at 8:00 AM.

            4. From NOON onward… there was a fully capable BLM Transport Helicopter available at the Yarnell Fire Station… WITH full capability to be doing bucket drops at any time.

            5. ALL afternoon… that BLM N14HX helicopter was fully available to ferry more firefighters to the Helispot on the Weavers, OR be assisting the ones that were up there with bucket drops.

            6. ALL afternoon… Shumate kept being told by the FFs that WERE up there that everything was ‘under control’ and ‘progressing’ and they would be ready for the planned ‘work-finished dust-off’ later that afternoon.

            7. Things STARTED to get ‘loosey-goosey’ up there… Shumate decided to send bladder bags up instead of doing actually bucket drops.

            8. WHILE the Helicopter was hovering DIRECTLY over the still-smoldering fire work area ( because the Helitack Nate Peck was there at the fire workline instead of up at the Helispot )… the fire flared up and ‘spotted’ across the road.

            9. Late afternoon SEAT retardant drops at critical times completely MISSED their targets, and turnaround times were inadequate to recover.

            10. The crews that were up there ran out of chain-saw gas… and lost their ability to even TRY to cut line around the escaping fire.

            11. Near dusk… the firefighters that were up there were told to STOP WORKING and just sit and WATCH the fire all night.

            And the rest is history.

            It was a classic case of TOTAL FAIL… and contains just as many “Lessons to Learn” as the next day would (tragically) provide.

  20. WantsToKnowTheTruth says

    Reply to Robert the Second (RTS) post on June 1, 2016 at 8:52 pm

    >> RTS said…
    >>
    >> WTKTT,
    >> You posted: “Jim Cook is one of the OMNA International company’s former
    >> US Marines who was hired by US Forestry to help ‘author’ the Yarnell Hill
    >> Fire Staff Ride.”
    >>
    >> Jim Cook was never in the Marine Corps and therefore, never a Marine.

    You are absolutely right. I stand corrected.

    He is, however, definitely an ‘OMNA Internatinal’ employee, and one of the co-authors of the Yarnell Hill Fire Staff Ride.

    I guess I got Jim Cook mixed up with fellow OMNA International employee ‘Eric Carlson’, who was also one of the co-authors of the ‘Yarnell Hill Staff Ride’.

    Eric Carlson is definitely ‘former Marine’.

    Same ‘Eric Carlson’ also shows up on a ‘Wildland Fire Leadership’ page, which says that Carlson is also the LEADER of OMNA’s “Gettysburg Staff Ride”…

    http://wildlandfireleadership.blogspot.com/2012_07_01_archive.html

    But again… you are right… Jim Cook is one of the few employees of OMNA International who is NOT either a ‘former’ or a ‘current’ member of the US Marine Corps.

    The ‘Incident Action Plan’ for the Yarnell Hill Fire Staff Ride lists THREE ‘OMNA International’ employees on it ( Darrell Willis is one of the three )…

    OMNA employees Eric Carlson and Darrell Willis serving as ‘Technical Specialists’, and
    OMNA empoyee Jim Cook serving as the actual ‘OPS’ ( Operational Section Chief ).

    Eric Carlson is that other person you were ‘Cc-ing’ on your own email conversations you where having with OMNA employee Jim Cook… along with Arizona Forestry Staff-Ride coordinator Don Boursier.

    Here’s part of that ‘conversation’ you and Jim Cook were having, after you felt the need to NOTIFY him ( directly ) what was being said about the ‘Staff Ride’ on the PUBLIC InvestigativeMEDIA forum…

    —————————————————————————————
    From: doug fir ( xxxxxx (at) xxxx.com )
    Date: Sunday, February 28, 2016 7:14 PM
    To: Jim Cook ( xxxxx.xxx (at) xxxxxxx.com )
    Cc: Eric Carlson ( xxxxxx (at) xxxx.xxx ); Don Boursier ( donboursier (at) azsf.gov )
    Subject: Re: YH Fire Staff Ride

    Jim ( Cook ),

    Thanks for your reply. That’s all my email was – just an FYI of what’s being said out here in the hinterlands. And I know that there are many with good intentions, who are trying their best to provide an unbiased look at the incident. As you and I agreed upon, it’s still too early, too many emotions, and too much anger and sorrow still. Yes indeed, its going to be a bumpy road.

    I consider myself in the group trying our best to provide an unbiased look at the incident. It’s pretty difficult at times, because even though I wasn’t on the YH Fire, I was pretty close to both Marsh and Steed. And one of the major obstacles for me is the YH Fire SAIR, which I consider to be the biggest whitewash and cover-up in wildland fire history.

    Best regards,
    Fred Schoeffler
    ——————————————————————————————

    What’s also interesting is what ELSE this OMNA International employee, and co-author of the ‘Yarnell Hill Fire Staff Ride’ when he ‘replied’ to you.

    Here we see one of the actual co-authors of the ‘Yarnell Hill Staff Ride’ pointing out that YES… Granite Mountain could have EASILY just ‘walked back to town’ that day, in the SAFE BLACK, regardless of what had gone on with their vehicles…

    ——————————————————————————————-
    Jim Cook said ( in his ‘Reply’ to Fred Schoefflers email above )…

    Finally, I am not disagreeing with the above opinion that making a decision to RTO back out to their vehicles at some point that day was a very viable option…but honestly, the exact location where GMs vehicles were parked that day was not a determining factor in the eventual outcome. They could have walked all the way back to town just as easily, no matter where the vehicles were parked. That didn’t happen for a number of reasons…just saying this is an uniformed rant, which on-line forums seem to generate with too much frequency…and which is why I don’t spend too much time on the internet, so I do appreciate knowing about this and thank you for passing it on.

    Jim Cook
    ——————————————————————————————–

    NOTE: The ‘uniformed rant’ that Jim Cook is referring to is what actually caused him to eventually APOLOGIZE to Marcia McKee ( the mother of deceased Granite Mountain Hotshot Grant McKee ). Jim Cook ended up admitting to her in another email that his information in his invitation letter to her had been ‘incorrect’. That Arizona Forestry had been unable to obtain the correct hiking permissions for the ‘Staff Ride’ to actually be “The TRUE (full) path of Granite Mountain on June 30, 2013.

    • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

      Followup… ( for RTS )…

      Are you still in touch with Jim Cook and/or Eric Carlson and/or Don Boursier on a regular basis?

      How did the ‘Charlie’ Staff Ride go?

      Just curious.

  21. WantsToKnowTheTruth says

    **
    ** THE ENTRAPMENT AT THE 2011 HORSESHOE TWO FIRE

    Most of the online articles about the ‘Entrapment’ that took place at the 2011 ‘Horseshoe Two’ fire ( the one under discussion below ) contain links to the original release of the official ‘Horseshoe Two Entrapment Investigation Report’…

    …but most of those are DEAD LINKS.

    There is nothing there ( what WAS there has been REMOVED ).

    But the following appears to be the ‘new’ link to view those ‘Horseshoe Two Fire Entrapment Investigation Reports’…

    Wildland Fire Lessons Learned Center
    Horshoe 2 Fire ( 2011 )
    State: Arizona
    Incident Type: ENTRAPMENT
    http://www.wildfirelessons.net/orphans/viewincident?DocumentKey=0a7475d4-6060-4faf-848f-920e2e0d9158

    The Horseshoe Two Fire ENTRAPMENT took place after a manual ‘burnout’ operation was started at 12:30 PM that day.

    • Woodsman says

      WTKTT,

      I want to know what hotshot crews were on the Bull fire on the Coronado on April 29, 2011. It seems we have ANOTHER 2 ff entrapment in addition to the Horseshoe 2. Anybody care to offer up just which crew(s) were on this one?

      Common factors for the 2 fires (Horseshoe 2 & Bull) identified by reports include (but not limited to):

      1. Firefighters were in the green downwind and upslope from firing operations.
      2. Firing operations were implemented with a sense of urgency to protect values at risk.
      3. Firefighters had gloves with them but did not have them on their hands during the
      entrapment.

      Reading the report, it’s not difficult to find disturbing information on the Bull Fire as well.

      To wit:

      “When the Incident Commander arrived with the last firefighters at 0955, the hotshots had begun line construction and were just starting firing operations. The local crews were headed to their positions. The IC had a quick discussion with the helitack crew about their role, before heading down to the control line below them. The IC told the helitack crew to remain at H-3. Their safety plan, should the fire cross the constructed line below them, was to light an escape fire –establishing a safety zone –and step into the black.”

      The IC told the helitack crew that their safety plan was TO LIGHT AN ESCAPE FIRE & STEP INTO IT???!!!!!!!!!!!!!????????????????

      R-3 is fucked up beyond all recognition…

      Woodsman

      • Woodsman says

        On the Bull Fire after the firing operation jumped the control lines at 1040 due to the RED FLAG winds, “at least three large slopovers headed north towards the helitack crew at H-3 (helispot.) The 2 helitack apparently diligently followed orders for their safety plan & tried to burn out around themselves…………..which prompted ran them off downslope toward the main fire………..which promptly ran them off back up slope to H-3. The dodged the flames and both received burns.

        You just can’t make this shit up! This really happened!

        Remember what I say: It’s up to you to look after yourself because management is sure not going to do it for you!

        Woodsman

      • Woodsman says

        Almost forgot and this is very important:

        WAG DODGE EFFECT!!!!!!!!!

        There it is, right there. I told you it’s real. You heard it here!

        Woodsman!

        • Bob Powers says

          It is strange to me while we discussed the Mann Gulch Fire we never had Any training on the WAG DODGE EFFECT,

          It all concerned Grass and Grass can spread fast up hill with wind just filed as info.
          No one ever said do this every time any place any fuel.

          Thanks Woodsman Interesting.

      • Woodsman says

        More from the Bull Fire report:

        ……………………..and………………there it is…………………..:

        “The IC recognized that there was unburned fuel
        between H-3 and the burn operation. They covered LCES. The IC directed the crewmembers to ring the helispot to create a safety zone for both crewmembers if needed. He used shorthand to describe the planned safety action as “’Wag Dodge’ it if there are problems.” The IC left H-3 and headed south toward the burn operation.”

        The Incident Commander ACTUALLY USED THE PHRASE WAG DODGE IT!!!!

        I 100% rest my case on this point. I never actually thought I was going to read the actual words in the report straight from the IC’s mouth! Goll Damn!!!

        Have we all lost our ever-loving freaking minds in the wildland service!!??

        Woodsman

        • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

          Reply to Woodsman post on June 1, 2016 at 10:49 pm

          >> Woodsman said…
          >>
          >> More from the Bull Fire report:
          >>
          >> ……………………..and………………there it is…………………..:

          Un—-fooking—-bu-leeb-a-bull

          And this MORON is still ‘out there’… being paid TAX DOLLARS to tell other civil-service employees what to do?

          PS: I haven’t forgotten the merged Yarnell Air-To-Air and Air-To-Ground radio channel transcripts you requested. They are on the way.

          • Woodsman says

            WTKTT,

            I know. It’s freakin’ scary!

            When I developed the theory of the ‘Wag Dodge Effect’ and how it may be influencing firefighters to believe in setting an escape fire to ‘step’ into as a viable survival option…………I never in my wildest dreams thought I would read those actual words in an entrapment report!

            Woodsman

            • Woodsman says

              And I’m going to preempt those that are getting ready to tell me that setting a fire to jump into is no big deal and can work depending on conditions, fuel type, etc, etc etc.

              My ‘Wag Dodge Effect’ theorem is the idea that some wildland firefighters may fantasize about one day lighting an escape fire to heroically save themselves and a crew just like they read about in the book. What a hero they would be! A regular ol’ Wag Dodge, a living legend!

              Woodsman

                • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

                  Reply to calvin post on June 2, 2016 at 3:12 am

                  >> calvin said…
                  >>
                  >> BRH were instructed to burn out a safety
                  >> zone at the YHF also. Right?

                  Correct.

                  But ( apparently ) not so much ‘instructed’ as ‘deciding it by THEMSELVES.

                  In the part below… it says “they briefed the crew”… which implies it was Frisby and/or Brown TELLING the BR crew to ‘Wag Dodge it’ back in the Sesame Clearing… if they needed to…

                  From the SAIT interview with Blue Ride Hotshots Brian Frisby, Trueheart Brown, Travis Fueller, and Cory Ball…
                  ———————————————————
                  Tied in with cortis for the 1st time, at this time he didn’t want to evacuate Yarnell, the trigger pt was the ridge. They needed 4 ppl to move the buggies @ 1530, they briefed the crew there 1st escape route was to the hwy and out, 2nd escape route was back to the junction burn out the grass.
                  ———————————————————

                  …2nd escape route was back to the junction burn out the grass.

          • Woodsman says

            WTKTT,

            And thanks for doing the work on the transcript overlays. I’m just trying to wrap my head around the full context of what was happening out there. At least as much as I can. The way things are going lately, it’s getting to be a monumental task.

            Woodsman

        • Charlie says

          This sounds like the GMHS incident that Woodsman tells us about the Bull Fire and the Wag Dodge Effect? Did they mean Wag Dog Effect–where the tail wags the dog. Sort of like the tiny man walking a huge dog–I have seen a man walking a dog but never a dog walking a man. Once of 300 miners washing uranium dirt off in those open shower banks–a small man with a huge pole–and one wise ass miner said good lord, I’ve seen a prick hanging off a man, but never a man hanging off a prick. .

          It goes to the idea that we wild land fire fighters that manage a wild fire, but at the Yarnell fire we were seeing wild land fire fighters that were managed by the wild fire.

          We did after all see that the men like Woodsman’s account of the Bull Fire begin to start fires–and try to back burn behind them–we wonder as to what you hear were they also back burning as they came up to the two track drop off point into the bowl? Joy and I did see those videos of back burning at the Shrine and there are a few photos that show an intense smoke right in that area. I do believe that video will again surface since it was on line and we had looked at it more than once. That fire when wind went south and southwest would have hit Glen Isla sooner than even the fire in the photo north of Donut when he was near the old grader. It was within a much closer proximity of Glen Isla and the Helms as well and definitely would have cut off any eastward progress of the GMHS. Their dual role as structure protection cost them dearly as did their thoughts of depending on cutting out manzanita and stacking it around themselves then placing faith in the flimsy blankets. Yet all the while they had ample time to make it into the boulders–only I estimate a 70 yard dash to the boulder field on that ridge. The brush is already back in the canyon enough to where an estimate of time to get through the brush to the boulder field could be made and a survey of alternative thinking to keep alive in manzanita made–of course that is not what the cronies want since it would again give a bad record of how the GMHS bosses lacked survival skills that would have kept the men alive.

          We are glad to hear from Holley–she gives alternative thinking to the board–and one can see where she is coming from. I wonder why Wayne Neil does not post–he hiked with us and I learned a lot from him about fire fighting methods. He would be a boss that would keep his men alive in those type situations and I could see right away if I were a young man learning the wild land fire fighter situation and how to do things properly and stay alive, he would be one to trust.

          • Charlie says

            should be when wild land fire fighters manage a fire —the only fires I helped manage were lightening strikes–trees were still burning and some brush around but we were able to clean out around enough to stop the spread–why it boggles the mind to understand why so many local firemen from three local fire departments (I don’t have the roll call numbers–Joy says there are volunteers as well) that did not immediately respond to that lightening strike, especially knowing the extreme conditions (-4) listed as the most extreme. It would be wonderful if some of those men that read this post explain it to old citizen Sonny. I certainly would like to know the excuses for the delay.

          • Woodsman says

            Burning out around yourself should not be a primary (or even secondary) safety plan. In the case of the Bull Fire, it was identified as a primary safety plan. It should be an absolute last resort if conditions allow AND you have exhausted ALL standard safety procedures, ie: the fucking basic rules of wildland firefighting.

            You CANNOT rely on this tactic as a safety net just as you CANNOT rely on a fucking fire shelter as a safety net. This is basic stuff here,

            What I call the “Wag Dodge Effect” is the heroic premeditated fantasy of pulling this maneuver in order to gain praise, notoriety, or fame. It’s NOT a viable or reliable primary safety plan for wildfire personnel.

            Woodsman

            Woodsman

            Woodsman

            • Woodsman says

              Dang, how did that happen……………….OK, I did it on purpose in order to start a cheering chant for myself at IM……..Who’s with me?

              Woodsman! Woodsman! Woodsman!!!

            • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

              Reply to Woodsman post on June 2, 2016 at 9:15 am

              >> Woodsman said…
              >>
              >> Burning out around yourself should not be a primary
              >> (or even secondary) safety plan.

              Tell that to Brian Frisby, Superintendent of the Blue Ridge Hotshots.

              Leader of (supposedly) one of the most highly respected Type 1 IHC Hotshot crews and someone a lot of other people are on record saying “I’d trust him with my life”.

              When Frisby briefed his own crew… he told them their secondary ‘Escape Route’ was back to the grass clearing and to then just ‘burn it out’ ( and get in it ).

              As in: ‘WAG DODGE IT’.

              From the SAIT interview with Blue Ride Hotshots Brian Frisby, Trueheart Brown, Travis Fueller, and Cory Ball…
              ———————————————————
              Tied in with cortis for the 1st time, at this time he didn’t want to evacuate Yarnell, the trigger pt was the ridge. They needed 4 ppl to move the buggies @ 1530, they briefed the crew there 1st escape route was to the hwy and out, 2nd escape route was back to the junction, burn out the grass.
              ———————————————————

              “…2nd escape route was back to the junction, BURN OUT THE GRASS”.

              • Bob Powers says

                Way different than the Wag Dodge burn out,

                A road a junction and grass once burned a good SECOND choice where they were should they get cut off out to the highway. If the fire had cut them off which it did not do and they drove out. Every one drove out.

                Wag Dodge was above the fire with no SZ they were running up a grass slope He stopped and started a burn and got in it and moved up in it as the burned black got larger. They were walking down to the fire from their jump zone when the fire took off towards them. It was not a planed decision but a quick fix. The Overhead should have planed a SZ but it looks like every one was on their own to drive out to the highway.
                They should have done that 2 hours before. Build a large SZ or drive out of there then.

                You can guess the watch out that created and a couple of orders.

                When you are out and indirect you need to chose what you have they could not burn there until they needed to. The location was on the other side of the Dozer line out side the control line. Their main plan was to drive out to the road and that worked well.

                Again indirect line can be a serious problem. Why the Dozer was not instructed to build a SZ would be a good question that is a normal practice for Dozer safety and any crews following the line. Plus the burn out for a fall back point.

                • Bob Powers says

                  Woops Put my addition in the wrong place.

                  It was not a planed decision. end of paragraph.

                  The Overhead should have planed a SZ but it looks like every one was on their own.—————etc.
                  Should have been at the end of the Last Paragraph
                  Starting at —–the end of —Plus the burn out for a fall back point.

                • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

                  Reply to Bob Powers post on
                  June 2, 2016 at 3:26 pm

                  >> Bob Powers said…
                  >>
                  >> Way different than the Wag Dodge burn out,

                  Well… no matter how you ‘spin it’… if they ( Blue Ridge ) had actually been unlucky enough to have to exercise that ‘second escape route/safety zone’ plan that Brian Frisby had given them… it would have pretty much LOOKED about the same as anyone trying to burn out grass… around them… and hoping it gets ‘black’ fast enough to survive.

                  It would have still been cross-all-your-fingers-and-toes-and-hope-this-works-fast-enough-before-the-real-fire-engulfs-the-area CRAZY TOWN!

                  Actually… if the worst HAD happened… and the Blue Ridge Crew had tried to run to the NorthWest on the Cutover Trail and towards their buggies at the Youth Camp… only to find that this PRIMARY escape-route had been cut off… they would have then found themselves more that 3/4 of a mile away from their ‘secondary’ safety zone out there in that grass in the Sesame Clearing area.

                  Actual distance from the northwest end of that ‘Cutover Trail’ they had been working on and the other southwest end would have been…

                  0.82 mile(s) / 1,450 yards / 4,351 feet

                  So even if they found themselves even attempting to do what Frisby had told them was their ‘secondary escape route’… at the speed the fire would have been moving in order to have cut off their PRIMARY route… they would have probably just gotten ‘trapped’ somewhere along the Cutover Trail and would have had to just try to deploy there on that dozer push itself.

                  It didn’t happen ( Thank God ).

                  There were already enough bodies to haul off that fire that day.

  22. Holly Neill says

    WantsToKnowTheTruth says
    MAY 31, 2016 AT 6:24 PM

    I think Charlie is just ‘reminding’ us ( with that link above ), that this person named Holly Neill is the same one who SIGNED her initial emails to ADOSH Lead Investigators Marshall Krotenberg with simply…

    “A FAN of GMIHC”.

    I’m ‘this person named Holly Neill’ and I’m going to reply to this against my better judgment.

    After the fatalities occurred I often called myself one of Granite Mountain’s greatest fans, for one reason and one reason only: Because of what those men faced and endured during the last 10 minutes of their lives.

    I know you want to skew and twist this to mean otherwise… like I am biased… I’m always defending the crew… I’m not objective, whatever. Make of it what you will.

    As far as using fake names, and digging up information on everyone else…isn’t it interesting that YOU remain anonymous? You can nitpick apart everyone else who is respectfully transparent and who doesn’t hide in your dark little shadows…. But no one can put you under a microscope to dissect your character, your profile, your photos, and your life.

    Why don’t you grow half a nut and put yourself out there to be examined, critiqued and analyzed as well? You sure can dish out loads of anonymous, hypocritical, self-righteous bullshit. Your commentary is cowardly and devoid of integrity, because you don’t have the character to OWN it.

    Wants To Know The Truth- but hides behind a fake name?

    Wants To Know The Truth- but can’t tell the truth about who you are?

    Duty-Respect-Integrity. You ought to look up the meaning. Oh that’s right, you’ve never been a firefighter, you can’t be expected to understand or apply the meaning.

    I’ll say it again, so you get it:
    My name is Holly Neill and I am a SUPER FAN of GMIHC, and I always will be…
    BECAUSE OF WHAT THEY FACED AND ENDURED TOGETHER,
    DURING THE LAST UNSPEAKABLE MOMENTS OF THEIR LIVES.

    • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

      Reply to Holly Neill post on June 1, 2016 at 3:49 pm

      >> Holly Neill said…
      >>
      >> After the fatalities occurred I often called myself one of Granite Mountain’s
      >> greatest fans, for one reason and one reason only: Because of what those
      >> men faced and endured during the last 10 minutes of their lives.

      I understand… and it is perfectly obvious from those many emails you exchanged with ADOSH ( and particularly lead investigator Marshall Krotenberg ) that you wanted them to actually CHANGE or AMEND their ‘official investigation report’.

      Your exact words to ADOSH…

      ————————————————————————————-
      “Would you be able to print an addendum to the report to add clarity and additional details to the original report? The goal would be to give the Families and the WFF community the TRUTH so that we can all move forward, heal and apply lessons learned that are clearly based on the actual circumstances.

      I have used the above (attached) audio file to make some comparisons to the SAIR and WFA reports to illustrate some of the possible implications of this audio. Changes would need to be made to add this additional information and correct previous assumptions. I believe this will lead to leaving a more positive and accurate legacy to the GMIHC; providing more clarity for their families, and adding a better understanding of possible lessons the entire WFF community can learn.

      Holly Neill.
      ————————————————————————————

      ADOSH subsequently informed you that no, regardless of what ‘evidence’ you thought you had that represented more of the ‘TRUTH’ ( as you were seeing it ) that might lead to a ( your quote ) “more positive and accurate legacy to the GMIHC”… ADOSH’s Yarnell Hill Fire workplace FATALITIES report was already FINALIZED, and ADOSH had already reached the limit of the maximum fines and citations that Arizona State Agency was allowed to impose on ANY Arizona employer.

      So there is no ‘secrecy’ there.

      It is perfectly obvious what you wanted ADOSH to do… as a (quote) “FAN of GMIHC”.

      You thought what you had heard ( at 4:13 PM ) in the Panebaker Air Study video was some kind of absolute proof that Eric Marsh had made it all the way to the Boulder Springs Ranch.

      You thought this also represented ‘proof positive’ that at least the ‘scouting’ part of what Hotshots are SUPPOSED to have done before using ‘escape routes’ had, in fact, taken place that day.

      Brendan McDonough has since confirmed that… in his own interview with author Bill Gabbert at Wildfire Today. Brendan confirmed that Eric Marsh really was ‘scouting ahead to the Boulder Springs Ranch’ that afternoon, prior to Jesse Steed and the rest of GM deciding ( or being ORDERED ) to leave the safe black and begin their hike to the Boulder Springs Ranch.

      What we still do NOT know is whether this ‘scouting ahead’ that Marsh did also means it was HIS decision ( alone ) for the other 18 men to take that ‘shortcut’ through that blind box canyon full of unburned fuel, within 1/2 mile of a raging, wind-driven fireline. If it was… then whatever ‘scouting’ Marsh had done did not change the outcome. They all died, anyway.

      But while it does seem clear now that Marsh WAS doing SOME kind of ‘scouting’ prior to the disaster… we ( still ) have no proof of what ‘route’ Marsh was actually ‘scouting’, or even how far he might have gotten before returning to die with the others.

      It actually remains possible that Marsh had simply ‘scouted’ the two-track/trail that was easily visible that day ( even with Google Maps ) all the way to the BSR… and that it was actually Jesse Steed himself who eventually made the fatal ‘mistake’ of deciding to take that ‘shortcut’ through the blind box canyon.

      Not all that likely, all things considered, but still ‘possible’, I suppose.

      Recent emails that have been released are mentioning YOU on a number of occasions.

      Apparently… you were DENIED permission to attend the settlement-mandated Family Member ‘Question and Answer’ day back on February 5?… just like the father of deceased Granite Mountain Hotshot Travis Turbyfill?

      Your situation is referenced at the bottom of this email…

      ——————————————————————————-
      From: Clark, Shannon L. ( xxxx (at) xxxxx.com )
      Sent: Wednesday, January 06, 2016 5:19 PM
      To: Joy Hernbrode ( Arizona Forestry Deputy Director – Admininstration )
      Cc: Anthony Hancock ( xxx (at) xxxxxx.com); McGroder, Patrick J.
      Subject: Q&A 2/5

      Hi Joy:

      Can you let me know who will be at the Q&A?

      My clients have requested the following, many of whom you don’t control:

      Paul Musser, Roy Hall, Russell Shumate, Byron Kimball, Todd Abel, Gary Cordes, Tony Sciacca, Brendan McDonough, Tom Cooley, Rance Marquez, Brian Frisby, Rogers Trueheart Brown, Thomas French, John Burfing

      My understanding is that Abel will be there but Cordes will not.

      They ( my clients, the family members ) have also asked you to reconsider Holly Neil’s presence at the session. I’m told she’s not helping write the book ( has just done research ). But would like to attend as a member of the Wildland Fire Foundation and would agree to be bound by a confidentiality agreement/non disclosure. Think about it and let me know.

      Working on getting questions corralled.
      Shannon
      ——————————————————————————-

      So, apparently, some family members wanted YOU to be there at the Q/A session on February 5, 2016, but Arizona Forestry was refusing to let you attend because of your association with author John McClean and the ‘book’ he is writing?

      And above we see attorney Shannon Clark asking Arizona Forestry to ‘reconsider’ and allow you to attend… because you were ( supposedly ) only doing ‘research’ for John McClean?

      Can you confirm or deny?

      There is no email as part of any Arizona Open Records or FOIA fulfillment which indicates whether Arizona Forestry ever relented… and allowed YOU to attend the Q/A session?

      Did you really get to attend, or not?

      If so… what can you tell us about it?

      All of the actual QUESTIONS that the family members submitted for that settlement-mandated ‘meeting’ and that Arizona Forestry was REQUIRED to ANSWER are also now available.

      If you actually did end up attending… do you feel the questions were being answered truthfully?

      *** Also…

      Jim Cook is one of the OMNA International company’s former US Marines who was hired by US Forestry to help ‘author’ the Yarnell Hill Fire Staff Ride.

      Here he is responding to an email he received from veteran 26 year Type 1 IHC Hotshot Superintendent Fred Schoeffler, just prior to the ‘Family’ Beta Staff Ride when it was discovered that while the invitation letters to the GM Family Members said they would be walking (quote) “The TRUE path of the Granite Mountain Hotshots on Sunday, June 30, 2013″… that was actually NOT going to be the case for the first 1/3 of the hike.

      ——————————————————————————-
      From: Jim Cook, OMNA International
      Sent: Sunday, February 28, 2016 at 4:30 PM
      To: Fred Schoeffler
      Subject: Re: YH Fire Staff Ride

      Well Fred…anyone who tries to extrapolate that much analysis from one short sentence in an invitation email and some second hand GPS info is actually the moron. The very simple and obvious reason for the current route is available access (which will get more problematic over time). The Sesame Street route is thru private property with owners having no interest in letting a group traverse their land…as well as some self evident logistics problems with vehicles and large groups. I really don’t think the “true path statement” was meant to be taken literally for GMs path the whole day, it was intended to reflect the critical movements up the hill to the Anchor Point and then on toward the Ranch. We have many staff rides that we currently deliver where the “exact” path and locations are not followed.

      This staff ride is intended to be the best learning opportunity we can provide at this time. I know there are some involved who want to “protect” the crew’s reputation, I know there are some who feel there is a conspiracy to suppress information, but there are some who are trying their best to provide an unbiased look at the incident…its going to be a bumpy road.

      Maybe if some people from the Coconino NF would open up to this group instead of chatting on the side with John Maclean’s book team, that learning process could accelerate.

      But either way, it will take time for all the controversy to get aired out. We are still seeing “discovery” of new revelations at the South Canyon Staff Ride by people that were on that fireline in 1994!

      Sent in Reply to an email recevied Sun, Feb 28, 2016 at 1:29 PM,
      from doug fir ( xxxxxxxxxxxxx (at) yahoo.com )
      ————————————————————————————

      Notice this quote from Yarnell Hill Fire Staff Ride author Jim Cook…

      Maybe if some people from the Coconino NF would open up to THIS group instead of chatting on the side with John Maclean’s BOOK TEAM, that learning process could accelerate.

      Obviously he ( Jim Cook ) is talking about the Blue Ridge Hotshots, and he seems to be saying he knows for a fact that they have been talking to author John Maclean’s ‘book team’.

      Since YOU are actually ON John Maclean’s ‘book team’… can you verify ( or deny ) this statement coming from Jim Cook?

      Have (any) Blue Ridge Hotshots been ‘talking’ ( already ) with either YOU or John Maclean, ( or others on your same ‘book team’ )… in lieu of contributing to the actual ‘Yarnell Hill Fire Staff Ride’?

      One last question…

      How is John’s book actually coming? Any planned publication date yet?

      • calvin says

        I will venture a guess.

        Marsh went as far ahead as the berms near BSR.

        Marsh had the responsibility of calling calling for the air support that was promised.

        Marsh was in position to call for drops at 1610 or so, about the time the crew was dropping off the two track.

        Once all the retardant was dropped on the north end of the fire, Marsh headed towards the crew, knowing it would be a few minutes, maybe too many, before the next few aircraft (vlat primarily ) arrived with retardant.

        And they all died. But before they did. I believe there are more radio calls that have not been released, possibly not recorded.

        • Bob Powers says

          Only one VLAT on fire and 2 SEAT”S VLAT carries 10,000 SEAT 2,000.
          No next few aircraft. In fact the VLAT was not there at that time 1610 it was reloading. Hmmmmm not quite a good guess?????

          • Woodsman says

            Bob,

            I just wanted to recommend that you double check your load capacities on the 2 aircraft you gave the specs on. I would love an 802 with 2,000 gallons – that would be freakin’ awesome!

            Woodsman

            • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

              He can double check those little ‘details’ while he also double checks his reality-meter. There WAS a VLAT ( 911 ) at Yarnell at 1610 that day. See below.

            • Bob Powers says

              Woodsman My bad

              I was checking the type 4 orders and saw a P2v type 2 T45 my mistake.
              The Seats were type 4 . 100/200 Gal.

              .
              The SEAT’s were getting short on Duty time 8 hours. One came on at 7:30 ish. and one around 9:00 Also French did not think SEAT could do any good on South end. Turn around times were a factor to airport reload and back 20 or 30 MIN.

              You can only make one run at a time so thus the hold and circle.
              Pull Hairs 1606 or 1610 what ever.
              The SEAT’s had to drop before you could use the VLAT.

              Because he said he parked the VLAT off to the west because of High winds you think he is a LIER you really are full of it how about checking the winds at 1606 to 1630. 15 to 25 right?????

              If you think my discussion is full of shit you sir are irrelevant with no fucking knowledge of Air Tanker use or Fire Fighting. When some on speaks generally you turn into a Fact freak.

              When you start calling people Liars you show your full DOUMB ASS attitude.

          • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

            Reply to Bob Powers post on June 1, 2016 at 8:05 pm

            >> Bob Powers said…
            >>
            >> Only one VLAT on fire and 2 SEAT”S VLAT carries
            >> 10,000 SEAT 2,000. No next few aircraft. In fact the
            >> VLAT was not there at that time 1610 it was reloading.
            >> Hmmmmm not quite a good guess?????

            You’re doing it again, Bob.

            You are speaking in some kind of ‘authoritative’ manner about what was happening in the Air over Yarnell…

            …and you continue to be completely full of shit.

            At 4:06 PM, DC10 VLAT 911 ( with pilot ‘Kevin’ ) got close to Yarnell airspace on its approach into the area.

            ‘Bravo 33’ Thomas French has him ‘in sight’… and then tells him to HOLD UP, and just go into an ‘orbit’ about 7 miles out from Yarnell… because Thomas French was still working with TWO different newly-arrived SEATS on that little ‘Miner’s Camp Road’ project ( where even the few structures that were even there had been totally evacuated hours earlier ).

            —————————————————————–
            +18:25 ( 1606:23 / 4:06:23 PM )
            ( B33 – French ): Nine one one… we gotcha in site… uh… just set up a… uh… kind of a… maybe a orbit out there just a few miles west, okay?

            +18:31 ( 1606:29 / 4:06:29 PM )
            ( DC10 VLAT 911 ): Okay… go out to the west… make a (left) orbit… wait for ya.

            —————————————————————–

            VLAT 911 goes into an ‘orbit’, right on the edge of Yarnell, just waiting for an assignment from French.

            French continues working the SEATS on the NORTH end of the fire.

            He does a drop in the ( evacuated ) Miner’s Camp Road area with SEAT Tanker 810.

            WHILE that drop is happening ( with SEAT 810 ), SEAT Tanker 874 notifies French ( on A2A channel ) the he is also now ‘arriving’ at the edge of the Yarnell airspace.

            At 4:07:56 PM, SEAT Tanker 810 makes his ‘drop’ in the ( evacuated ) Miner’s Camp Road area on the NORTH side of the fire…

            ——————————————————————-
            +19:58 ( 1607:56 / 4:07:56 PM )
            ( Tanker 810 ): Eight one zero’s off the drop.

            +20:01 ( 1607:59 / 4:07:59 PM )
            ( B33 – French ): Perfect, man… that was right on. Nicely done.

            ——————————————————————–

            French tells Tanker 810 to ‘load and return’… and also tells him to be sure and WATCH OUT for DC10 VLAT 911… who is now just ‘orbiting’ near Yarnell with his finger in his ear just waiting for French to decide what he wants to do with his entire fresh load of retardant.

            ——————————————————————
            +20:16 ( 1608:14 / 4:08:14 PM )
            ( B33 – French ): Load and return. Uh… give me a… kind of a sharp left turn-out. Uh… (keep) the DC10 in sight and just stay… uh… kinda inside their turn.

            +20:25 ( 1608:23 / 4:08:23 PM )
            ( Tanker 810 ): Okay. Got ’em in sight. We’ll stay outta their way.

            ——————————————————————

            There’s much more… but are you getting the picture?

            You are still WRONG about what was happening, and when, with regards to the ‘Air Show’ at the Yarnell Hill Fire.

            And speaking of people being full of shit…

            Thomas French apparently said the following to RTS, in person, at some point… ( during the Staff Ride, I believe? )…

            —————————————————————–
            >> RTS said…
            >>
            >> French did say that they had to divert or ‘park’ the VLAT off to
            >> the south during all this due to the strong winds.
            —————————————————————–

            If Thomas French actually said that to RTS ( or anyone )… he is a LIAR

            The only time he ‘parked’ the VLATS in an ‘orbit’ in/around Yarnell that day ( June 30, 2013 ) is because he hadn’t figured out what to DO with them yet. There is absolutely NOTHING in captured in ANY of the Air-To-Air channel radio exchanges that indicates he was EVER ‘parking a VLAT’ because of of ‘the winds’.

      • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

        Holly… a followup…

        From the email above from Shannon Clark to Arizona Forestry…

        ————————————————————————
        They ( my clients, the family members ) have also asked you to reconsider Holly Neil’s presence at the session. I’m told she’s not helping write the book ( has just done research ). But would like to attend as a member of the Wildland Fire Foundation and would agree to be bound by a confidentiality agreement/non disclosure. Think about it and let me know.
        ————————————————————————-

        If you ( Holly Neill ) actually were eventually given permission to attend this settlement-mandated ‘Question and Answer’ day… did Arizona Forestry actually make you sign a ‘confidentiality’ and/or ‘non-disclosure’ agreement… as you have ( apparently ) offered to do in order to be able to attend?

        • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

          Also… regarding your request to attend the settlement-mandated Q/A day as (quote) “a member of the Wildland Fire Foundation”.

          Is that actually referring to the ( full name ) “Eric Marsh Wildland Fire Foundation”, founded by Amanda Marsh…

          or did Shannon actually mean to say you were requesting to attend on behalf of your OWN “Safety Matters” foundation?

      • Joy A. Collura says

        Some do.know the real identity of wwtktt and accept his anomonity and to answer wwtktt..adosh did their investigative reporting and they cannot reopen it and that is.why Holley and.myself were told no. Case was closed. I am on a magnesium citrate day so away from pc but I supposed good timing because I don’t like to see people I care for talked to like this…you want people to come here but when they do…Bob is a good man…speak respectful…he only reacts when he is picked on…Holley really has a heart for a lot and I only called Charlie out because I could not reach him by phone or text…and did not get link provided. Gotta run..get it 🙂 almost 14 days no movement and kidney stones obstruct that area so not been good day…I like everyone here even the pop ins..shows people do remember that weekend I lived through…I have buried way too many after this fire here locally and so just hoping June treats everyone well..enjoy…if someone helps direct me a map maker link…I will work on it but never tried again after it froze

      • Joy A. Collura says

        wwtktt said as copy/paste from Shannon to Joy H.:
        bound by a confidentiality agreement/non disclosure.
        my reply: huh? are you serious wwtktt? she drove all the way from NM for the q&a event? was it under her safety organization? interesting. hmmm….Hmmmm.
        hmmmm…that is all I can muster to think and say-

        • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

          Reply to Joy A. Collura post on June 1, 2016 at 6:52 pm

          >> Joy A. Collura…
          >>
          >> wwtktt said as copy/paste from Shannon to Joy H.:
          >> bound by a confidentiality agreement/non disclosure.
          >> my reply: huh? are you serious wwtktt?

          The email from Shannon Clark to Joy Hernbrode, of Arizona Forestry says that if they ( Arizona Forestry ) wanted Holly Neill to sign some kind of ‘confidentiality agreement’ in exchange for Holly being ALLOWED to attend the settlement-mandated GM Family Q/A day… that Holly Neill had ( apparently ) already said she would be willing to do that.

          I was just wondering if that’s the way it really went down ( or if Arizona Forestry ever ‘allowed’ Holly Neill to be there at all ).

          They had already told the attorneys for the family that THEY ( Arizona Forestry ) did not WANT her there.

          The email was asking Arizona Forestry to ‘reconsider’ that decision.

          >> Joy A. Collura also said…
          >>
          >> she drove all the way from NM for the q&a event?

          Are you ASKING me that… or are you TELLING me you know she did?

          >> Joy A. Collura also said…
          >>
          >> was it under her safety organization?

          I don’t know. That’s the question I asked above.

          The EMAIL says she wanted to represent “Wildland Fire Foundation”.

          Does that mean she was asking to be there on behalf of Amanda Marsh’s foundation ( and not her own “Safety Matters” foundation )?

          Dunno. Maybe she will clarify that.

      • Robert the Second says

        WTKTT,

        You posted: “Jim Cook is one of the OMNA International company’s former US Marines who was hired by US Forestry to help ‘author’ the Yarnell Hill Fire Staff Ride.”

        Jim Cook was never in the Marine Corps and therefore, never a Marine. He was not in any branch of the Armed Forces. He served as the Arrowhead (1981-1990 and 1992-1995) and Boise (1996-1998) Hot Shot Superintendents respectively and the USFS National Training Products Coordinator after that.

        ‘“You can’t apply an OSHA model to what we do. It’s not a factory floor,” said Jim Cook, who recently retired after 37 years in fire service, including 18 years as a hotshot crew superintendent and 14 years as training projects coordinator for the U.S. Forest Service at the National Interagency Fire Center (NIFC) in Boise.’

        From the article cited below, nowhere does it mention in this brief bio about Jim Cook being in the Marine Corp.

        Among other things, he’s trained with them at the Marine Corps University and was instrumental in the Leadership Committee of the NWCG Training Working Team.

        This is from an excellent, multi-link article by Billy Stanton of Magicvalley.com titled “South Canyon Fire: Never Again.”

        It has numerous links which include the 1994 South Canyon, the 2013 Yarnell Hill Fire, the 1976 Battlement Fire, including excerpts of Human Factors, leadership, fire shelters, Staff Rides, and much more of interest and worthy of discussion and debate.

        http://magicvalley.com/app/projects/never-again/Fire/index2.html

        And the “moron” comment was in reference to a post you made about the YHF Staff Ride Development Group rerouting the actual GMHS route and calling it ‘factual’ and deriding the fact that ‘they’ called it the ‘true path.’

        • Robert the Second says

          I just remembered this gem from the article above:

          “The Granite Mountain Hotshots of Prescott, Ariz., made the [South Canyon Fire] pilgrimage there two years ago to pay their respects, recalled Darrell Willis, wildland division chief for the Prescott Fire Department.

          “We hiked Storm King Mountain with this (20-member hotshot) crew, AND WE ALL SAID. ‘THIS WILL NEVER HAPPEN TO US.’”

          REALLY? The parallels between these two fires are staggeringly similar.

          They evidently did not learn from this fire and garner the fatal causal factors and lessons learned here, including the Human Factors, responsible for EVERY non-environmental, wildland FIRE fatality.

        • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

          Reply to Robert the Second (RTS) post on June 1, 2016 at 8:52 pm

          >> RTS said…
          >>
          >> WTKTT,
          >>
          >> You posted: “Jim Cook is one of the OMNA International
          >> company’s former US Marines who was hired by US Forestry
          >> to help ‘author’ the Yarnell Hill Fire Staff Ride.”
          >>
          >> Jim Cook was never in the Marine Corps

          You are absolutely right. I stand corrected.

          Jim Cook ( co-author of the Yarnell Hill Staff Ride ) is actually one of the few ‘OMNA International’ employees who is NOT either a ‘former’ or ‘current’ US Marine.

          See a longer ‘Reply’ above…

          http://www.investigativemedia.com/please-begin-yarnell-hill-chapter-xxi-here/#comment-338058

    • Joy A. Collura says

      Holly said: “Wants To Know The Truth- but hides behind a fake name?”

      my reply: actually that is not accurate- the people that count in this do know who wwtktt is-
      and the blog nickname is wwtktt which is proper for this tragedy and the blog nickname-

      Holly said:”But no one can put you under a microscope to dissect your character, your profile, your photos, and your life.”

      my reply: actually there are those who can do that (put you under a microscope to dissect your character, your profile, your photos, and your life.”)- but once you know who he is- you do not dare- I mean we the world are very fortunate to have all these resources and organizational skills of this man. yes, he can be intense and precise but he is doing one thing…working through what is given and trying to organize it based on what is shown as public evidence and sharing it for years now and has helped me from day one- the IM crew may be a diverse set of folks but the core purpose is to gather more and more information and a free place to just be you not edited or redacted like we saw with the SAIT folks-

      Hard for me to participate not just because health but trying to find a simple way to make a map that does not lock up on me while making it- for Muzzy- plus the next 5 weeks I am tied to doctor stuff and surgeons…so I got to pause for this day to stop BRAT regimen but to do what—magnesium cit-rate—oh e’- I am going to get my kale salad in after whatever happens; happens.

      Thank you to John Dougherty for having a freedom of speech place to express, thank you Marti for all your photo help and being such a beautiful soul, and thank you Gary(been here a long time Aug 2013)/Bob(been here a long time Sept 2013)/RTS(Robert the Second)/RockSteady/Norb Szczurek/Otis/Calvin/Woodsman/Muzzy/Holly/EN/David Turbyfill(been here since Sept 2013 on and off)/Clair C./The Truth Will Always Remain Elusive/dale1/wildfire65/Typ6/henry shatney/Dan Key retired Silver city hotshot superintent/Hopeful that all negatives stop/Avery Haggard/Ron Anderson/East Coast Fireman/William Riggles/Sue Jorgensen/wildland dozer/Russell Lowes/AMANDA/Georgia/Brian T. Miller/chandera/Ralph Taylor/Andybinga/Dixter/Chris/Danny King/Linn/Robert Plant/Elizabeth Groom/jnelson/tek9tim/SWADIVS/seymour/Julie/IHC18/IHC Captain/George/Wayne Logan/Nancy Montoya/Barbara Maack/John Bates, Chula Vista FD in San Diego County/Little T/LZ /Steve Delgadillo/Pat Byrnes /George Atwood/Marcia Weary/JimmyBlaze/Donald C Rees/Max Copenhagen/Rod Wrench/Wendy/Greg Ross/Larry Sall/Sinclair Browning/Danne/Jeremy/FullSaillxxx/B Gillaspie/russ truman/Ireiman/JIm Brenner/Janice Stout/jmcdtucson/Flynn/WFF/
      Melody and so many more…
      close with this old past time comment from Robert-
      Robert says
      AUGUST 2, 2013 AT 11:43 AM

      All the reports and comments posted should keep in mind that wildland firefighting is inherently dangerous. It’s an unfortunate tragedy that these brave young men died needlessly. Instead of second guessing, let’s keep their families in our thoughts and prayers, they are suffering and will for a long time. Focus on what can be done to improve safety for those fighting these fires. Perhaps hotshot crews and smoke jumpers should only be deployed in immediate vicinity of structures to protect life and property. Point no fingers, place no blame. Pray for the families of the fallen and ask what you can do to honor these men.
      (http://www.investigativemedia.com/granite-mountain-hotshot-leader-eric-marsh-violated-safety-protocols-while-acting-as-a-division-supervisor/#comment-1352)

      —————————-
      I always think it is funny when I channel surf on to “Chopped”— the chefs who judge to the chefs who cook- it is just strange…coming here reminds me of that…chop, chop…let everyone be who they are and you be you…and leave it at that and let the world assess from that point—

      • Charlie says

        I’m chopped–agreed–some even contributed in abstencia. ie-Provencio, Donut and many others–

        • Joy A. Collura says

          Charlie says
          JUNE 1, 2016 AT 7:54 PM

          I’m chopped–agreed–some even contributed in abstencia. ie-Provencio, Donut and many others–

          my reply: no- you are alive and well I can’t say well— but your are alive 🙂

  23. WantsToKnowTheTruth says

    Reply to Woodsman post on May 31, 2016 at 6:43 pm

    >> Woodsman said…
    >>
    >> Well, I checked with Forest Service Aviation for information on
    >> Air Studies in 2013 and guess what?……..DEAD LINK at the
    >> USDA website! Fuckers!!!

    http://www.fs.fed.us/fire/publications/aviation/usfs_firefighting_aircraft_study_final_report.pdf

    >> The magnitude of CYA is quite impressive!
    >>
    >> Woodsman

    Copy that.

    Yes… some time ago I spent a LOT of time looking for specific information about this Federally-Funded “Aerial Firefighting Study” that Eric Panebaker and his crew were being PAID to do ( again… totally with TAXPAYER dollars ) that day in Yarnell.

    I wanted to see if the SPECIFICATIONS for the contracted Air Study actually REQUIRED the A2G channel to be recorded along with the A2A channel.

    Government contract. HAD to be ‘Requirements’ and ‘Specifications’, right?

    No joy.

    As far as the Federal Government seems to have been concerned… Eric Panabaker and his entire crew might have been taking home taxpayer-dollar paychecks for all that work they were doing…

    …but there is NO RECORD of that specific “Aerial Firefighting Study” ever even having been
    conceived, requested, authorized, or subcontracted to Panebaker’s group, or ANYONE.

    Like it never existed.

    Your tax dollars at work.

    Begs the question… how many OTHER ‘studies’ or ‘projects’ does the United States Forestry Service have going on, at any given time, with the taxpayer-dollar faucet wide-open… and there is absolutely no public record of any of it happening… or WHO is getting the MONEY?

    • Bob Powers says

      The Studies are handled thru the National Interagency Fire Center Boise..
      They usually release the final study documents when the Project is over.

      Did you try there?

      • Woodsman says

        Not anywhere to be found at NIFC either…must have accidentally been deleted. It’s a shame, all that hard work down the drain…

        Woodsman

        • Bob Powers says

          Could be internal and not out to the public I could find nothing either.

          It would be quite a large file if they were Recording all Fires with Air support.

          I will see what I can find out through my contacts.

          They would put a report together for release that’s SOP.

          • Woodsman says

            Hey thanks Bob! See if you can find out how they are collecting data and what their specific methods are, For example, what exact data do they collect? I appreciate it.

            Woodsman

            • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

              The key is to try and find the CONTRACT itself.

              The document that spelled out EXACTLY what the ‘Study’ was supposed to do… and what the REQUIREMENTS were.

              In other words… does the CONTRACT itself say that the ‘Study’ should present the ‘whole picture’ ( Both Air-to-Air and Air-To-Ground communications )…

              …or were they going to get PAID for this ‘Study’ even if it made no attempt to show the ‘Air-To-Ground’ interaction with ‘Air Support’?

              • Bob Powers says

                Whoooo

                This would have been an internal study they were using Government Air Craft and Government Pilots. There is no contract for that. For your info the Lead planes are Government owned the Pilots are Government Employees.

                The Air wing of the FS/BLM would have been doing the study
                What ever it was about or for.

                I would doubt it was under any contract unless some one was putting to gather all the Radio Data as a study contract??

  24. WantsToKnowTheTruth says

    Reply to Bob Powers post on May 31, 2016 at 9:19 pm

    >> Bob Powers said…
    >>
    >> WTKTT you are beginning to sound like another book with out real facts.

    You’re getting almost pathological on us, now, Bob.

    YOU are the one who is doing nothing but continually proving the old saying…

    “It ain’t what he don’t know that’ll scare ya… it’s what he knows fer sure that just ain’t so.

    Not that who did or did give or get a radio to someone really matters… but here at the end of a month where the TRUTH about the Yarnell Hill Fire took an awful beating… I’m not going to stop pointing out how full of shit you are with regards to the EVIDENCE RECORD.

    You are absolutely IMAGINING things in your own head now… and trying to pawn those ‘facts’ off on others as ‘the truth’ and ‘evidence’.

    Keep reading ( below )…

    >> Bob Powers…
    >>
    >> They quit looking for the Tractor that night when they found it on the County Compound.

    Fer chrissakes… WHO are THEY? WHO ‘found’ it? WHEN?

    What ‘County Compound’ are you even fucking talking about?

    WHERE is the ‘evidence’ to back up this statement you are making ( and that’s the second time I’ve asked. Ya gonna make it THREE? )

    >> Bob Powers said…
    >>
    >> Get back to reality man. They had no search after dark for the Tractor.
    >> The crew became the only missing.

    Oh… so you found some NEW piece of evidence that says EXACTLY WHEN someone ( who? ) removed dozer operator Paul Morin from the list of ‘missing persons’?

    The exact TIME and whatnot?

    Cool… tell me EXACTLY where that is. I’d like to read it myself.

    >> Bob Powers also said…
    >>
    >> The record says Cory took the Radio when he left the cat

    You are completely full of shit. The ‘record’ says no such thing.

    Prepare to read the PROOF that you are completely full of shit on this one, and you are trying to pawn off your ‘imaginations’ on the rest of us as if it’s the TRUTH.

    The ‘BR notes’ and Unit Logs are below, including ANY and ALL references to the ‘radio’ and the ‘dozer operator’.

    Unlike the bullshit you have already said a few times just in the last few posts… it was NOT Cory Ball’s radio. It was Browns.

    Please read on…

    From Blue Ridge Assitant Superintendent Trueheart Brown’s Unit Log
    ————————————————————————
    We are told that the Dozer is not red carded and does not have a radio. I grab MY extra radio and get it ready for the operator. We have ( Cory Ball ) and one other drive up in the ranger and then we brief ( Cory ) that he is to function as a DOZB for the time being and I give him the radio to give to the dozer operator.

    ( Gary Cordes ) calls and requests the dozer to put in a piece of line off the main 2 track to the north that will tie into a road call shrine by the youth camp. We drive down and tie in with him and get the info and then pass it on to ( Cory Ball and the dozer ).

    ( The dozer ) finishes this assignment and they request him to go up north with the ( dozer ) and we send him up that direction to tie in with ( xxxxx redacted xxxx ).
    ————————————————————————

    That’s it, Bob.

    Absolutely NOTHING about him ‘getting his ‘extra’ radio back from the dozer guy’.

    Now… from Blue Ridge Hotshot Cory Ball’s TYPED Unit Log…

    ————————————————————————-
    Blueridge One requested me plus one to travel to fires edge. I was assigned ( xxxxxxx redacted xxxxxxxxx ) county employee not IA qualified and did not have a radio. Gave radio from BRIHC to operator ( xxxx redacted xxxx ). Crew Member operated vehicle movement back to crew in meadow.

    ( xxxxx redacted xxxxx ) informed me to take ( dozer ) to abandoned two track North of Yarnell and open up route. Tied in with structure group one. Opened road to NORTHEAST around subdivision and then improved back to start. ( BR Crew ) to improve dozer line and potential burnout operations. Instructed to ( xxxx redacted xxxxx ) and move to HWY 89. Staged in HWY 89 with structure group one.

    1600: BRIHC disengaging to safety zone.

    BRIHC one informs Structure Group One they are are pushing engines out of subdivision.
    Structure group one assigns me and one other to locate possibility of dozer line to southwest of Yarnell. Acquire ATV: travel into subdivision to Dozer line. Multiple structures fully engulfed and multiple spot fires in subdivision.

    ————————————————————————-

    Again… that’s it, Bob.

    You wanna show me in there where Cory Ball says anything about taking any radios BACK from ANYONE?

    Ready for more… how about Brian Frisby’s Unit Log?… Okay… here you go…

    From Blue Ridge Superintendent’s handwritten Unit Log…
    ————————————————————————–
    As we dot down the road we tied into ( Gary Cordes ), who had the ( dozer ) working in front of him. He informed us that the dozer didn’t have a radio and he would and he would like him to clear out the roads that ran north and south off the main two track. We called ( Cory Ball ) to drive the Polaris ranger up the road and to bring an extra radio.
    ————————————————————————–

    That’s it, Bob.

    Sorry… absolutely NO mention from Brian Frisby about what ever happened to the dozer… and NO mention of anyone ever taking the radio back from him at any time.

    Last but not least… how about the SAIT Interview with Blue Ridge?…

    Well… let’s see…

    From the SAIT Intervew Notes with Blue Ridge Hotshots
    Brian Frisby, Turheart Brown, Travis Fueller and Cory Ball
    —————————————————————————-
    There original assignment was to relieve Gary Cortes, with the Structure Group. Brian and Trew came across the Dozer, he wasn’t carded Trew grabbed an extra radio/cloned it and gave it the Dozer operator, DOZP. The fire had been picking up all day, 6ft fl. Trew had Ball work with DOZP who didn’t know who he was working for, he had no supervisor, no division.

    Ball was working the dozer pushing it back to the Shrine trying to establish some line. The crew was working at the Shrine/ youth camp Cortes offers an engine up to help them with the dozer line. B & T come back, tied in w/ the crew, and give Ball a lat/long with the ending pt for the dozer line. Around 1500 they want to pull the dozer out to go north for structure protection.
    —————————————————————————-

    Again… that’s it, Bob.

    Absolutely NOTHING about anyone giving anyone a radio back.

    Your turn.

    TELL ME where any known evidence record says that the ‘extra’ radio that Trueheart Brown cloned and gave to dozer operator Paul Morin was EVER ‘returned’?

    I’m perfectly willing to believe it might be in something I haven’t checked.

    Your turn. FIND IT and SHOW IT to me.

    And again… not that any of this really matters… but in a month that started with the TRUTH about the Yarnell Hill Fire taking an absolute beating… it’s hard to just let this BULLSHIT that you are slinging here ( as the same month closes out ) go by without calling you out.

    • Bob Powers says

      OK So the Tractor never returned to the County yard in Yarnell and is lost in the superstition mountains. No one seem concerned about the Dozer by 1800. where was it?

      The Dozer operator still has the BR Radio and Cory Ball is in trouble for losing it.
      The Dozer operator was Talking to all fire people and relaying messages Right.

      No one could contact him and he did not contact any one.

      Your records prove nothing more than mine so get off your fucking BS.

      My evidence is the final out come. By morning no one was looking for the Dozer
      Because HAY— IT WAS IN THE YARNELL COUNTY COMPOUND SITTING ON THE LOW BOY.
      BALL WAS NOT RUNNING ARROUND LOOKING FOR BR RADIO AT ANY TIME AFTER LEAVING THE DOZER. We both have different conclusions. No evidence either way.

      Your evidence leaves the Dozer/Radio and operator some place in the Superstition Mountains and no one was looking for him.
      Reality— had the operator and tractor been missing they would have pulled every resource to find him as well as the crew. Didn’t happen captain—-They knew his last location and they knew where he came from. It is a big fucking piece of equipment.

      That is a very big piece of equipment to lose. My recollection that some one said the Low Boy was Back in the Compound. But then I do not remember where. The record showed that they stopped looking for it and concentrated on the 19 missing Fire Fighters.

      So I will go back to calling you a DOUMB ASS.

      No more written record on the Dozer or low boy after Ball leaves them at the Parking spot.
      Dozer loads and leaves before he is over run by fire………..
      Ball took Crew Radio………………

      • Bob Powers says

        I will go one better this whole thing with you and the Dozer is Morin.

        You will not let go of trying to prove Morin was the person asking the question of location of GM.

        So you will attack my conclusion until you prove you are right.

        Get off it WTKTT It is a far far reach to conclude your theory.

        Until then lost in the superstitions—or parked in the County Lot??????????????.

        • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

          Reply to Bob Powers post on June 1, 2016 at 7:56 am

          >> Bob Powers said…
          >>
          >> I will go one better this whole thing with you and the Dozer is Morin.
          >>
          >> You will not let go of trying to prove Morin was the person
          >> asking the question of location of GM.

          That gets us back to “reading for comprehension”, Bob.

          It matters.

          At NO TIME have I ever said I have any PROOF whatsoever that dozer operator Paul Morin WAS the one asking, on a TAC channel, at 4:13 PM… “Granite Mountun… wuz yo stay-tus rat now?”.

          At NO TIME have I ever said he is even to be considered the ‘prime candidate’.

          The Morin family surname has MOST of its roots, in the United States of America, in Lousiana CAJUN Country.

          I believe that makes him a ‘candidate’ ( but only ONE of MANY ) for the person who seems to be speaking with a ‘Cajun’ accent… AND using the term “10-4” instead of “Copy”… in the radio transmission that was captured at 4:13 PM on June 30, 2013.

          That’s it.

          Unlike your ability to just dismiss certain possibilities based solely on your ‘experience’ ( and seldom the actual EVIDENCE )… I can’t “rule him out” the way you are doing.

          And I have ALWAYS AGREED with you that your ‘theory’ about someone up at the ICP making the call about ‘status’ is just as valid as any other theory.

          Until we know WHO made that radio call ( and SOMEONE did )… all possibilities are still ‘on the table’.

          • Bob Powers says

            Well you have sure beat around the bush about that HAVEN’T YOU???

            And I see no possible conection to him so I am on the other side of your
            ???????READING FOR COMPREHENSION?????
            WHAT THE FUCK Give me a break with you double talk.

            If it don’t fit I ain’t wearing it. Ill stick to my conclusions based on my experience there is nothing in the NOTS OR RECORDES to suggest other wise no matter how much you quote the statements he fell off the radar when he got to his Low Boy.

            Again he was there every body was leaving, the fire was advancing toward his position. Why sit there to be burned over no matter how big the parking area was load up and get out like every one else.

            He was green to Fire– no Red Card– he got the hell out and went back to the County yard. What is so strange about that.

            Every Body was bailing off the Fire at 4:13 on the North and North East side of the Fire.

            When Ball got the Dozer to his Truck and the Low Boy he took the BR Radio that the operator had it was BR’s why would he leave it with the Dozer? Ball had the responsibility to bring the radio with him or maintain control of it. What is so hard about that?

            You at this point are not going to change my mind. till you can discredit the above information. So far you have not done that.
            Give me your evidence Based on what?
            I would first suggest that he was familiar with Radios Working for the County Road Department.. That would also be a real possibility.

            I will go back for you again 10-4 is not uncommon in radio use and clear text. His Cajun name could as well be 3 generations back and born in Arizona.

            • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

              Reply to Bob Powers post on June 1, 2016 at 3:55 pm

              >> Bob Powers said…
              >>
              >> Well you have sure beat around the bush about
              >> that HAVEN’T YOU???

              Nope. All the foliage around all the bushes remains intact.

              I was NEVER making a case that Paul Morin WAS ( without a doubt ) the one making the 4:13 PM “Granite Montun… wuz yo stay-tus rat now?” radio call.

              >> Bob Powers also said…
              >>
              >> WHAT THE FUCK Give me a break with you double talk.

              It’s only ‘double’ and ‘triple’ and ‘quadruple’ talk because I’ve tried to tell you this simple fact TWO or THREE or FOUR times already.

              >> Bob Powers also said…
              >>
              >> You at this point are not going to change my mind.
              >> till you can discredit the above information. So far
              >> you have not done that.
              >> Give me your evidence Based on what?

              Again… I already gave every reason why, if a person has any ‘imagination’ at all ( which, it appears, you do NOT ) the bulldozer operator MIGHT have been either making that radio query himself, or could have been acting as a ‘relay’ for someone else who did not have the correct proximity or line-of-sight to actually make contact with DIVSA, at that point in time.

              If you are still curious about all that… go find it below.

              • Bob Powers says

                Sorry WTKTT not Curious about your ramblings.

                I already read them once found little real information.

                I do not think we are talking Imagination here we are talking
                reasonable expectation of what would normally occur That is where we differ. So WTKTT is actually adlibbing in the imagination world where a Radio appears and Morin talks to Marsh but somehow cant talk to any one else? Oh I forgot there was smoke that blocked his trans mission? It has to be a solid object to block line of site.
                So Morin would sit in the cab of his truck and wait for a fire to engulf the area he was parked in, when he could just leave and go back to town and park in a perfectly safe County yard.
                Every body else was getting the Fuck out of there why would he stay to experience a horrific burn over. Crazy don’t you think. Hard to imagine any one would do that.

                • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

                  As much as I hate to even continue this ridiculous thread of conversation… I really am still curious about one thing…

                  Where in the hell do you even think this ‘County Yard’ thing is that you keep mysteriously referring to… and where you seem to still ‘believe’ the dozer was actaully ‘found’ ( by people you still can’t even name )?

                  Are you actually talking about some place in YARNELL?

                  Or are you suggesting the dozer LEFT Yarnell altogether that afternoon?

                    • Bob Powers says

                      The County Road storage facility for Dozers and Large Equipment is in Congress not Yarnell.

                      According to my sources a fenced area.

                      Close enough for you.????

  25. Holly Neill says

    I would like to comment on a recent article titled “Forest Service Ignored Information From Hotshot Leaders About Granite Mountain’s History of Bad Decisions”.

    From the article:
    “In an interview with InvestigativeMEDIA, Provencio provided details of a situation on the Horseshoe 2 Fire on the Coronado National Forest in southern Arizona in 2011 where Marsh was a division supervisor and made a recommendation for work that was rejected by four hotshot superintendents. (Marsh was a division supervisor at the Yarnell Hill fire where he oversaw Granite Mountain, which was under the command of his assistant, Jesse Steed.) …
    “Marsh’s expectation was we can get this done in a short amount of time,” Provencio said. But Provencio and the other hotshot superintendents thought otherwise”.

    Without additional information, it might be easy to oversimplify and condense Provencio’s account into a neat conclusion…suggesting that Eric Marsh acted in an unsafe/dangerous manner as Division Supervisor with supervisory responsibility for multiple IHC’s….all leading to evidence of “Granite Mountain’s history of bad decisions”. However, I believe it is important to follow through and check facts for such serious allegations.

    Marsh was not assigned Division Supervisor as stated, but was assigned Crew Boss (CRWB) on Horseshoe 2 fire in 2011. There are no records or sources* to indicate that Eric Marsh was assigned Division Supervisor.
    *SAIT: H: Qualifications: Master Record: Eric Marsh: pg 335
    *Crew Fire Record 2011: Eric Marsh: pg 340
    *Other: personnel recollections and payroll records.

    Personnel from the Horseshoe 2 fire, including the Type 1 Incident Commander and other overhead, provided their accounts for additional clarification.The following recollection is from overhead personnel on the Horseshoe 2 fire, who wants to remain anonymous:

    “I remember flying it and seeing it. It was a pretty tight little area. We were debating if we should back up to the next ridge or not, and there were a lot of conversations like that going on. Eric (Marsh) had the crew (GMIHC). They were coming down a ridge bringing fire with them. He asked Geronimo and another IHC from California to hike up to them and grab it and take it the rest of the way down. Both crews turned it down. There were a lot of conversations going on about this. The IC’s got involved when the two crews said they were turning it down. The two crews wanted to back up to the next ridge.”

    The Type 1 Incident Commander provided additional information about the refusal/ turn down protocol used by Provencio and the other IHC. Marsh was not assigned as Division Supervisor on Horseshoe 2 fire; he was assigned as Granite Mountain superintendent/crew boss. He was part of a group of 12-14 IHC superintendents. The planning and decision process was led by the Type 1 Operations Section Chief, Branch Director and Division Supervisor.

    The team had a very tricky piece of open line on the west side of the fire and they were trying to figure out how to best handle it. There were a multitude of options. Risk Management/Safety was the first priority.

    There were some long, well thought out discussions on the GO/ NO GO decision to fight the fire aggressively on the west side, and at the end, everyone agreed to go with the plan. When all the lines were constructed and in place (a couple days of extremely hard work by the hotshot crews that were there), and it was time to burn it out, there were a couple hotshot crews who decided it wasn’t safe and refused the assignment. (Not four crews as Provencio states…the recollection being two crews… Geronimo and another IHC from California.)

    The refusal caught everyone off guard because of the earlier agreements. It caused a serious delay in the operational work, by setting everything back several hours and putting a lot of extra strain on all the other hotshot crews that continued with the work. The refusal was a HUGE thing to the Incident Management Team. They immediately reviewed all of their plans, the thought process, the risk management, the values at risk, etc.….

    At the end they all agreed that it still was the best option, and the crews that were up there also agreed.

    When they were finally able to get on with the implementation, everything went off as planned. Crews burned and held some really difficult line. The lines held through the day, but early the next morning a spot fire took off, which erased all that the crews had gained—it was a sad time for everyone. Was part of the reason being the delay caused by the refusal??

    “Probably, but that was the hand we were dealt and we went with it….Those hotshot crews that implemented all the work were outstanding in their efforts and attitude—as good as it gets as far as I am concerned”. — Dugger Hughes, ICT1

    Refusal/turn down protocols were used by Geronimo and the other IHC, and alternative suggestions were made to ‘back up to the next ridge’. But the original strategy and tactics led by the Branch Director, Operations Chief and Division Supervisor went forward as planned, although serious delays occurred as a result of the refusal.

    The following link is to a letter and certificate of commendation from the Southwest Area Incident Management Team, to The Granite Mountain IHC for their professional work ethic, commitment to safety and exceptional performance on the Horseshoe 2 fire:

    https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B5LiZw3EBzOWdnU3MlJSY2k0bDg

    If one sided accounts are taken at face value, we run the risk of over simplifying and making shortsighted insinuations. In this case, the importance of fact checking should be clear. I believe that we can and should be better.

    Holly Neill

    • Bob Powers says

      Well Holly you are now Calling two HS Superintendents Liars.

      And then saying that a IC covered his ass by giving GM a letter of commendation.

      There is a lot more to this than meets the eye.

      Like what was said in the review of the Crew complaints and refusal?

      More to this story Ill wager//////////////.

        • Bob Powers says

          Lets add the real Meat here——

          Firing out during the Day???? Very risky in those conditions.

          It was a tight area even worse. Risk a lot to save what???????

          Safety Zones and Escape routes????

          Building Fire line Down Hill with fire below????????

          Unburned fuel between you and the fire?????????

          Attempting Frontal assault on Fire????????

          Watch outs that deserved To be stated.

          It was a burn out OR BACK FIRE???????

          You are doing a lot of Recollection or at lest those that are now remembering.

          2 or 4 Crews recollect Two How about posting the Protocol Turn down I am sure that will show how many and why.

          When you provide answers to the above questions then we can evaluate the situation.

          It sounds a whole hell of a lot like THE SOUTH CANYON FIRE 1994.

          You might look at how many Fire fighters Have died Building line down hill???/////////For Joy???????////

    • Joy A. Collura says

      Holly said:”If one sided accounts are taken at face value, we run the risk of over simplifying and making shortsighted insinuations.” and “The following recollection is from overhead personnel on the Horseshoe 2 fire, who wants to remain anonymous”

      MY REPLY: I am glad to see you here. I would like to add I agree with her on one sided accounts yet however I also do not like anonymity where it has nowhere to go to fact check- so I think that is worse when an opinion is given by remaining anonymous-

      if you can publicly say the words than one should be able to publicly say your name!

      • Joy A. Collura says

        it reminds me lately of a recent email when someone says “someone sent me an email that you….” why throw a third person in the scenario like you don’t want people to know you peak here—
        this anonymous bs has to stop—I have been Joy A. Collura 6-30-13 and I am still her today and what is wrong with this whole thing is too many want to remain anonymous and why we cannot see more missing elements—but what we do SEE is lots of leaks or unverified/verified information from higher ups- and let’s not forget Donut’s testimony behind the scenes told to little old ladies at the church or local bank he attended and a lady who drops her kid off at same dance place his girl goes to and bars and casinos where people who knew the men speak up during drinking times- I mean too many leaks and not enough plumbers (People with more details) willing to fix it-

      • joy a collura says

        Or if one remained anonymous than link and redirect to hands on documents that don’t need foia or more digging… Like wwtktt does a lot of sourcing on this site but always has remained anonymous but always willing to answer others inquiries…

    • David Turbyfill says

      Thank You Holly for doing John Dougherty’s job for him………..I had reached out to John last week or so to speak with him about this and he was in Canada. It doesn’t come as any surprise to me of Dave P’s comments. but have been wondering of the specifics.

      To the rest here on IM this is partly why Mike Dudley did not want to get into this area of thought during the investigation, it would have only presented a lot of BIAS and a whole other set of investigations.

        • David Turbyfill says

          Really??????????? Well hell yes. Why is it so easy for the living to condemn the dead but its not ok to question the living? I am not actual saying “go easy on GMHS” its just that JD did not, in his article show any background research to the claims made by those describing their beefs with Eric. I was trying to reach JD about whether or not he had checked into any of Dave P’s assertions.

          Dave P came forward, on his own, he wasn’t asked or sought out, He interjected his Personal Opinion about Eric’s fitness as a Leader by sending the email to Mike D. His email and interview does NOT give any documented facts. That also means that he has not been asked to produce such evidence as yet. Hollies statement shows from here work that at least 2 shot crews objected to a assignment on the HS2 fire. It is only fair to take a look at his complaint, email and fairly access it by all means, which means it will be scrutinized, questioned not just taken at face value.

          Quoting JD’s Article “Marsh, Provencio said, had quickly developed a reputation for pushing his crew to outperform other hotshot crews. By 2009, other hotshot crew superintendents began derisively referring to Marsh as “One Up” because of his attitude.”

          Did GMHS produce more work when on fires?

          Does IC or line command know this?

          Is it often that ICs send Shot crews letters of Thanks or Recommendation?

          What would IC have to gain?

          Is there a competitive spirt amongst Shots crew on the line to the work that’s accomplished?

          I do believe that Dave P’s assertions, assessments, thoughts on Eric/Jesse can be relevant to latter Human Factor Assessments

          >To the rest here on IM this is partly why Mike Dudley did not want to get into this area of thought during the investigation, it would have only presented a lot of BIAS and a whole other set of investigations. To the rest here on IM, “MIGHT” this is partly why Mike Dudley

          • Joy A. Collura says

            David said: Why is it so easy for the living to condemn the dead but its not ok to question the living?

            MY REPLY- I agree if the questioning comes from a person with no angle or agenda to create and orchestrate one’s own narratives- than it is okay.
            but what we seen in this- is alot of angles and agendas and I do not see Donut’s book with misinformation being asked to be corrected by the recent person who wanted to make sure we publicly correct a comment—even some creating the platform the hikers are questionable like MacLean suggested at a smokejumper convention in 2015 yet he has never come direct to me and asked me direct questions he questions to further clarify his questionablle mind but has no problem in a large setting of people to degrade the hikers so that comes off to some smokejumpers that MacLean has a narrative of his own…oh yep, he is writing a book eventually-
            but I do agree with MacLean every person should be questioned for fact-checking but my photos say alot that I do not have to say much— it proves I was on the Weavers- it proves I saw what I saw and that’s enough for me…I also always if in private someone questions the hikers are being suggested I “call it out” here and set it straight—but Sonny is right we are not the ones to be talking to about details about the fire like air to ground and radios and such—those should of been answered with purity to David LONG AGO- from the people on the fire-

            • Bob Powers says

              Like I said Above there is a lot more information than what Holly produced. Jumping to conclusions dose no one any good.

              I would still like to see the Turn downs.
              Horseshoe #2 seems to have had a burn over with no injuries
              maybe the team was not so good?
              Risk a lot to Save a lot— The structure fire motto.

          • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

            Reply to David Turbyfill post on May 31, 2016 at 6:50 pm

            >> David Turbyfill said…
            >>
            >> Dave P came forward, on his own, he wasn’t asked
            >> or sought out, He interjected his Personal Opinion
            >> about Eric’s fitness as a Leader by sending the
            >> email to Mike D. His email and interview does
            >> NOT give any documented facts.

            The ‘article’ was about how Mike Dudley and the SAIT had obviously and purposely decided to IGNORE evidence that was directly related to their ‘in progress’ INVESTIGATION… especially since that taxpayer-funded ‘investigation’ did, in fact, have a ‘Human Factors’ expert assigned who was SUPPOSED to be interested in examining ALL aspects in that area that *might* provide any insight into what happened on June 30, 2013.

            David Provencio TOLD Mike Dudley ( in his email )… that he DID have all of this DOCUMENTED.

            Mike Dudley ( and the SAIT ) didn’t give a fuck.

            Your tax dollars at work.

            >> David Turbyfill also said.
            >>
            >> It is only fair to take a look at his complaint, email and
            >> fairly access it by all means.

            Tell that to Mike Dudley, Jim Karels, and the SAIT.

            They were tasked with ( and being PAID to ) fully ‘investigate’ a Historic Wildland Firefighter Fatality Incident that, more and more each day ( circa late summer and early fall of 2013 ) just looked more and more like it was completely based on ‘Human Factors’ ( exactly the way 26 year Hotshot Superintendent Fred Schoeffler told them early on that it would ).

            Yet… when offered some ( DOCUMENTED ) evidence that might have been directly related to those continually-emerging ‘Human Factors’ issues in Yarnell on June 30, 2013…

            They.Just.Didn’t.Give.A.Fuck.

            Who cares if more young men DIE in the future because we don’t feel like answering some guy’s email…. or even ASKING to see the DOCUMENTATION he is offering us. These emails are really just breakin’ up our day.

            • Joy A. Collura says

              plus RTS can chime in here for Fred and Dave-

              to help David understand more of how the article was born-

      • Joy A. Collura says

        oh stop Charlie- what does that link mean anyways? I went there and did not see anything about what Holly just talked about which had good sound valid points-

        One sided and anonymity are good points Charlie-

        • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

          I think Charlie is just ‘reminding’ us ( with that link above ), that this person named Holly Neill is the same one who SIGNED her initial emails to ADOSH Lead Investigators Marshall Krotenberg with simply…

          “A FAN of GMIHC”.

    • Muzzy says

      Hi Holly,

      Thanks for the information. I had tried using online resources to find documentation of the refusals by Geronimo and others to no avail. Is there any way for non-FS citizens to access these records without an FOI request? Do hotshots and other employees have access to records of all refusals? I understand that there are employee privacy issues at stake here, but I feel that these provide cover for admins who want to gloss over problems with overzealous sups and crews.

      • Bob Powers says

        I believe they are available as part of the Fire record. They were released on a Fire last year.

        • Muzzy says

          Hi Bob,

          Do you have a link to get me started? All I found was a Lessons Learned for a non-fatal entrapment on the Horseshoe 2 Fire.

          Thanks!

          • Bob Powers says

            Not sure but post what you found, may be relevant to this discussion.
            Sounds like the Horseshoe 2 had some problems.

            Hope fully RTS will get back on and be able to provide more.

            It would most likely be in the Fire records if you can find them.
            May be something in the turn down protocol by fire name.

            • Muzzy says

              I’ll try again, I tried three times yesterday and the post failed. Ok that was fourth time and still no joy…er..luck. I’ll try again without the http. Cut and paste, I’m afraid! Oops, try number five. I’ve now added spaces at certain places. You’ll have to remove the spaces to use the link.

              http://www.wildfirelessons. net/HigherLogic/System/DownloadDocumentFile.as hx?DocumentFileKey=f6ffb657-bde4-4b5ao-b1fe-04af4c0cb594&forceDialog=0

              You say Fire Recordes. Where are those ?

              • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

                Muzzy… still no joy on that link.

                I took out the space before ‘net’ and the one between ‘as hx’ but still only get a ‘404 Document Not Found’ back from the ‘Lessons Learned’ site.

                • Woodsman says

                  Just google search Horseshoe 2 fire and look for a result at the lessons learned center. For some reason my attempts at pasting the link here are not working.

                  At the lesson learned site there is:

                  Safety Alert

                  Entrapment Review

                  Google Earth fly around

                  Happy reading.

                  Woodsman

                  • Woodsman says

                    I suppose I should amend my post to clarify that there was no “Happy reading” section of the documents on the Horseshoe 2 fire at the Lessons Learned Center that I could find………..other than the fact that no one freakin’ died…..I guess THAT is something to be happy about.

                    Woodsman

                  • Muzzy says

                    Weird about the link. I found a more direct link and still lost the post. Spooky…

                    Anyhow, according to Mike Dudley, if you wait until conditions are within safe parameters, you would never work another fire in Arizona:

                    https://m.youtube.com/watch?
                    v=iWm3myJdQO4

                    I didn’t note the time, but it was after he played the video.

            • Woodsman says

              Bob,

              you said:

              “Horseshoe #2 seems to have had a burn over with no injuries”

              Sure did. There WAS an injury though. One of the 2 lookouts from the type 2 IA crew needed stitches on his hand after he made forcible entry (into the cabin they rode out the burnover inside) by punching the window out with no gloves on.

              The review complemented the lookouts on their structural training and sticking together.

              Red Flag day shift burnout! Yeehaw!!! Forces apparently decided burnout at the peak of burning conditions JUST HAD to be done (started at 1230 hrs) because…………well, because of……….wait for it…………..

              STRUCTURES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

              Here is their justification:

              “Division resources recognize that this burnout operation is critical to holding the fire on the north side of Turkey Creek and protecting many of the structures located in the canyon”

              “If no action is taken, the fire — influenced by wind and terrain — will cross to the south side of the drainage — potentially destroying ranch homes, cabins, and out buildings.”
              .
              AND, here’s the forecast!

              “On June 7 —the day of the entrapment—the official incident forecast from the Incident Meteorologist called for ridge top winds to be from the southwest with sustained speeds of 10 to 15 mph and gusts between 25 and 30 mph. Slope winds were forecasted to be up-valley in the afternoon with gusts between 25 and 30 mph. Along with these winds, hot and dry conditions were also forecast. At the ridge tops, the forecast called for minimum relative humidity between 10 and 15 percent, with temperatures in the 70s.”

              Hey Bob, you want to guess how long after ignition started that it got away from them? Tell everyone for me.

              What the fuck is going on in R-3?

              Woodsman

              • Bob Powers says

                And some one would wonder why 2 or maybe actually 4 HS Superintendents refused to do the assignment, WTF
                I spent a few years learning from some of the best on a Back Firing team in Southern California we would never have recommended a burn out or back fire in those conditions even at NIGHT.

                Hay Holly go read this and tell me Crews actually burn out down hill in the middle of the day with winds at 10 to 15 and gusts to 25. The fucking IC and his team thought it was a good plan. FUCK ME—Marsh went and started it Gung ho We be the best????????????????????????????

                • Woodsman says

                  Bob,

                  No, no, no……..it was gusting OVER 30 observed on the ground!

                  Now, answer my question: will you let the audience know how long it would take to ‘lose it’ after ignition in these conditions? You know. I know. Tell everyone else who may or may not know. Now’s your chance to shine.

                  Must save the stone houses!!

                  sidenote: when I think you’re wrong, I’m going to turn up the heat. When I agree with you, I’m going to say so. Equal opportunity.

                  Woodsman

                  • Robert the Second says

                    Woodsman,

                    As you well know, those types of failed and flawed burnouts occur in every Region every year because of really incompetent WFF supervisors. It’s NOT just a R-3 thing.

                    • Woodsman says

                      RTS,

                      Fair enough. It’s just that I’ve worked with the SW teams and, well, I suppose you are correct. There is incompetence in more places than one.

                      Woodsman

                    • Robert the Second says

                      Woodsman,

                      On the 2012 Halstead Fire (Salmon NF) in ID with managed by a Type I IMT and NIMO (HUGE WATCHOUT) they blatantly blew it on burning out, TWICE.

                      After a week each time of heavy metal indirect line construction in mixed conifer fuels, for some reason ‘they’ determined it was ‘too soon’ and ‘too much ground’ and one moron actually said ‘it’s gonna snow.’

                      Are you kidding me? In July? WTF?

                      Obviously, the fire took off and blew through and over the indirect lines both times.

                      This are fairly common responses (‘too soon’ and ‘too much ground’) by many IMT’s except the ‘it’s gonna snow’ thing. That guy was a moron.

                    • Woodsman says

                      RTS,

                      I’m with you on the NIMO watchout 100%. I’ve seen it many times with my own eyes,

                      Woodsman

  26. Joy A. Collura says

    has any of you on IM actually reached out to these men that the ADOSH and SAIT did not—

    has anyone ever went direct and asked them the questions-

    They are currently still in the system?

    is it an area I can ask for the foia for?

    Air to ground and this mysterious notebook that exists is what I want to know more about—

  27. WantsToKnowTheTruth says

    More ‘gems’ about how ‘clueless’ Thomas French and John Burfiend were while they were functioning as both ‘Lead Plane’ AND ‘Air Attack’ during the time when the deployment took place…

    From near the end of the SAIT interview with ‘Bravo 33’ ( Thomas French and John Burfiend ).

    NOTE: This is one of those sections where it impossible to tell WHO is actually being quoted from this SAIT interview. Could be either Thomas French OR John Burfiend, or even some combination of BOTH of them…

    ———————————————————————–
    Never saw them ( Granite Mountain ) earlier. I didn’t know they were there. Air attack didn’t tell me there were resources in the area. I never got divisions from the briefing. Didn’t know there were divisions. Thought it was a Type 3 incident. I didn’t recognize Todd’s voice. I didn’t know anybody was taking any action on the fire.
    ———————————————————————–

    Never say them ( Granite Mountain ) earlier.

    More proof that ‘Bravo 33’ really never did ‘fly down’ and get a ‘visual’ on Granite Mountain to verify they were ‘in the safe black’… as OPS1 Todd Abel told ADOSH he told them to do… and Abel says they came back and said Granite Mountain WAS ‘in the safe black’.

    Thought it was a Type 3 incident.

    Thomas French and John Burfiend didn’t even know what frickin’ LEVEL of incident they were working that day.

    • Bob Powers says

      As I remember a type 2 short team is still a type 3 incident. Size of the fire under 1000 Ac. the morning of the 30th would be another indicator.

      Call a full type 2 team in and when they take over it goes to Type 2.

        • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

          You have to love the ‘mental gymnastics’… AND the continuing ability to miss the actual point of a particular posting.

          From a certain perspective… it’s actually quite impressive.

          Must have missed all the rest… such as…

          “I didn’t know they ( Granite Mountain ) were there.”
          “Air attack ( Collins ) didn’t tell me there were resources in the area.”
          “I never got divisions from the briefing.”
          “Didn’t know there WERE divisions.”
          “I didn’t know ANYBODY was taking ANY action on the fire.”
          – etc… etc…

    • Muzzy says

      They weren’t the only ones:

      Interviews with Paul Musser OSC and Todd Abel OSC

      7/6/13

      • Paul Musser and Todd Abel were first called for Type 3 (unclear as type 3 or type 2 short team) assignment on evening of June 29, (6 acres at call time)

      From the SAIT interviews

      • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

        And from their ADOSH interviews ( no confusion at all, really )…

        From Planning OPS2 Paul Musser’s ADOSH interview on August 16, 2013…
        ————————————————————————-
        74 A: Okay, uh, on the 29th I was called by Jim Downey – nah I can’t remember
        75 whether Jim called me or whether it was dispatched first. But anyhow around
        76 1800 or thereabouts and af- asked me if I’d take a type 3 IC assignment for a
        77 five acre fire on top of the ridge at Yarnell. And so they said it was for the
        78 next morning. I accepted the assignment. And said as soon as driving
        79 regulations allowed me, I would start in the morning. Uh, I later received a
        80 text that the fire was now 100 plus acres. Uh, then talked to Roy shortly after
        81 that and said that we didn’t need me as a type 3 IC, what we needed was the
        82 team. It was 100 acres this time we – we needed to deploy the entire team. I
        83 then went to bed. Roy and Glenn dealt with that part of it. Uh, got up, oh 4:00,
        84 4:30 somewhere around there. Left Flagstaff a little before 5:00, arrived in
        85 Yarnell right around 7 o’clock.

        ————————————————————————-

        NOTE: When ‘Roy Hall’ told Musser they needed ‘the team’… he is talking about the Arizona State Forestry ‘Type 2’ team that Musser was already normally a member of. The same ‘State Type 2 team’ that Todd Abel was referring to in HIS own ADOSH interview…

        From Field OPS1 Todd Abel’s ADOSH interview on August 22, 2013…
        ————————————————————————-
        114 A: Uh, just to make sure I’m clear on this, the – the team – when I got an order
        115 from this assignment, it wasn’t on the team I’m normally on. That was them
        116 calling me saying hey the State type 2 team is taking the fire in Yarnell, we
        117 need some help, we need – we need – can you go as a Division Supervisor
        118 there.
        119
        120 Q1: Got it.
        121
        122 Q: Who was it who called you?
        123
        124 A: Uh, the Arizona, uh, Dispatch Center.

        ————————————————————————-

        • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

          Notice ( above ) that when Paul Musser says he talked with Roy Hall on the night of Saturday, June 29, 2013… Roy Hall just told Musser he didn’t need for a ‘Type 3’… he needed him to show up in his normal capacity as a member of the full ‘State Type 2’ team…

          …and Roy Hall said NOTHING to Musser about it going to be a SHORT version of that regular ‘State Type 2’ team.

          Musser told ADOSH Roy Hall told him ( on the phone )…

          “…we needed to deploy the ENTIRE ( Type 2 ) team.”

    • Rocksteady says

      Red herring…

      It does not matter the class of the fire. A Hotshot on a type 4 fire does not do his work differently than if he is on a 1,2 or 3…

      Neither does AA, Dozer Boss, Division Supervisor, etc etc etc

      • Bob Powers says

        True It is the same old grind Cut Line Cut Line and do it till you have line around the fire. I like the old days a fire team was assigned and they fought it till it was controlled.

      • Muzzy says

        The confusion over what type of incident it was speaks to the general level of disarray among overhead on this fire. No plan, AA assigning HS crews to DIVS A, DIVS Z just walks away. Tankers putting out GM’s burnouts. BR knocking around for a while, then hanging out at the buggies until the evacuation, no one at IC to clone radios, safety officers who don’t even know there’s a crew on the south end of the fire, etc.

      • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

        Reply to Rocksteady post on May 31, 2016 at 2:24 pm

        >> Rocksteady said…
        >>
        >> Red herring…
        >>
        >> It does not matter the class of the fire.
        >> A Hotshot on a type 4 fire does not do his work
        >> differently than if he is on a 1,2 or 3…
        >>
        >> Neither does AA, Dozer Boss, Division Supervisor, etc etc etc

        As with Bob Powers above… you seem to have totally missed the point of the particular posting you are now commenting on.

        It wasn’t JUST that Thomas French and John Burfiend testified to the SAIT investigators that they didn’t even know what fucking level of ‘Incident’ they were working on… they basically didn’t know JACK SHIT about ANYTHING that was ( or wasn’t ) happening on the ground… or who was below them… or that there were any ‘crews’ ( or ANYONE ) ‘down there’ even (quote) “taking any action on the fire”.

        And now you are saying that never matters?… For not only Air Attacks, but it’s okay for Division Supervisors and Type 1 IHC Hotshot Crews and others to be just as equally fucking CLUELESS as Thomas French and John Burfiend told the SAIT investigators THEY were… that fatal day?

        Please say YES.

        Then we can start a whole new discussion about how absolutely totally FUCKED UP the entire current approach to Wildland Firefighting REALLY is.

        Soup to nuts.

        • Rocksteady says

          So what the fuck does the fire classification have to do with people doing their jobs as assigned??

          Stupid response WTKTT

          • Woodsman says

            RS,

            I can’t say it better than Muzzy did up above when you & Bob picked example from the list to dissect.

            “The confusion over what type of incident it was speaks to the general level of disarray among overhead on this fire. No plan, AA assigning HS crews to DIVS A, DIVS Z just walks away. Tankers putting out GM’s burnouts. BR knocking around for a while, then hanging out at the buggies until the evacuation, no one at IC to clone radios, safety officers who don’t even know there’s a crew on the south end of the fire, etc.”

            Is it your position that all of WTKTT’s examples are no big deal and we just roll with it? We don’t need to know any of those things to do our job?

            Woodsman

          • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

            Again… you missed your mark ( and now the point of TWO separate posts ).

            The ‘original’ post wasn’t JUST about the fact that Thomas French and John Burfiend didn’t even know what ‘Level’ of Incident they were actually working. That was just ONE of the things they admitted to the SAIT Investigators that they were totally fucking ‘clueless’ about… in Yarnell… on June 30, 2013.

            • Rocksteady says

              I may have misinterpreted the word clueless.

              Did you mean they are idiots or were not properly briefed?

              I took it as idiots

              • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

                Reply to Rocksteady post on
                June 1, 2016 at 10:40 am

                >> Rocksteady said…
                >>
                >> I may have misinterpreted the word clueless.
                >>
                >> Did you mean they are idiots or were not properly briefed?
                >>
                >> I took it as idiots

                I don’t know either of them personally, so it’s hard to say about ‘option 1’… but ‘option 2’ was definitely ‘in play’.

                Of course… it might have been a combination of BOTH ‘options’… dunno.

                Bottom line is that “all was not well” with the general Air Support that day… unless you want to confirm what I was asking above…

                …that the general level of total fucking ‘cluelessness’ being admitted to the SAIT investigators by the members of the Air Attack that was ‘in charge’ of the fire at the time 19 men were burned to death on the ground is actually NORMAL.

                That the ‘flyboys’ are ALWAYS that fucking ‘clueless’?
                Nothing to see there. Move along?

                • Rocksteady says

                  Air Attack is ad a disadvantage on most fires, they are generally located at an airport but may not be in the same town as the IAP, so they are not in on the Ops, Planning or Briefing meetings.

                  When they do arrive overhead, someone should be glueing them into what the scenario, objectives, priorities, as well as call signs for each Division.

                  I suspect that having 2 OPS on this fire may have caused someone to drop the ball of an ar channel briefing.

                  • Bob Powers says

                    Normally Dispatch will Fax a plan to the Air Base.
                    No plan Contact IC when over Fire get briefed.
                    It was a type 3 on the 29th it was still a type 3 on the morning of the 30. Were they Clueless I think not.
                    but what difference did it make 3 or 2 there was not many overhead or Divisions (one) at morning briefing. The size was barely a on division fire.

                    .

                    • Woodsman says

                      The Yarnell Hill fire was never a Type 3 fire. They were wrong. Hey, it’s happens.

                      Woodsman

        • Bob Powers says

          Back up a minuet and remember the morning briffing.

          NO MAPS
          NO SHIFT PLANS
          NO LIST OF RESOURSES OR OVERHEAD
          NO BODY KNEW WHAT WAS ASSIGNED

          WE NEVER SAID IT DOSE NOT MATTER THE TYPE OR SIZE DOSE NOT MATTER THE WORK ON THE GROUND AND THE CHAIN OF COMMAND AND THE PLANS FOR THE SHIFT MATTER.

          You are putting something down that was never said.

          You have decided to totally Bash Wild land Fire Fighting over a small amount of information on this fire. There are way more fires than what we have discussed here that are professionally handled. Less than 5 % a screwed up mostly in the first 48 hours.

          • Woodsman says

            Bob,

            I don’t think WTKTT has just decided to bash this fire for no good reason. You know damn well it’s a target rich environment here. There are many, many failures in management all over the YH fire. You have stated many yourself.

            In addition to the poor commo, no written plan, etc, there is evidence of extreme disconnect between aerial & ground forces. WTKTT provided testimony from the record that shows the level of “fucking scary shit’ kind of WTF out there from just one aerial resource. All of these examples rounded up would probably fill a book.

            Freelancing and total lack of communication, planning, coordination………on and on………

            Woodsman

            • Bob Powers says

              Absolutely Been there on occasion and we just pulled up communicated amongst our self’s and did our job Safely.

              The rest worked its self out. Cut line, Cut Line Cut Line.

              REFUSE STUPID UNSAFE ORDERS OR BACK OFF INTO SZ AND SIT IT OUT.

              • Woodsman says

                Bob,

                We are in agreement on everything you just said. Many of the resources didn’t “work itself out” at Yarnell HIll and I want to know everything that directly and indirectly caused that to happen. What you just said is absolutely what SHOULD have happened but unfortunately, it DID NOT.

                Thanks

                Woodsman

  28. WantsToKnowTheTruth says

    Reply to Marti Reed post on May 30, 2016 at 4:53 pm

    >> Marti said…
    >>
    >> Here’s what bugs me in this at this point. French was just the “Lead Plane Pilot.”
    >> He wasn’t actually “in charge” of anything.

    Tell that to Thomas French.

    >> Marti also said…
    >>
    >> His superiors were AA Collins and (John) Burfiend.
    >> His job was to move planes and helicopters around.
    >> His job wasn’t to do the strategizing.

    Again… tell that to French ( and listen again to the Air-To-Air channel recordings ).
    He ( French ) was, most certainly, doing a lot of the ‘strategizing’ after Collins left, whether he was SUPPOSED to be doing that, or not.

    >> Marti also said…
    >>
    >> The actual strategizing job and authority regarding this shift went from Collins
    >> to Burfiend, not to French, unless I’m missing something.

    Air Attack Rory Collins had to leave Yarnell at 3:58 PM because his pilot was ‘timing out’.

    At NO TIME did Collins specifically say whether French or Burfiend should be the one ‘replacing’ him. All he said ( to BOTH of them ) was “I have to leave. Are YOU GUYS going to be okay?”.

    Here is EXACTLY how that “I’m gonna have to leave” conversation went between Air Attack Rory Collins and pilot Thomas French in ‘Bravo 33’, over the Air-To-Air channel…

    It happened at 3:51:46 PM, starting with that agreement between French and Collins about what the new ‘priority’ should be from that moment on ( Yarnell, and not the NORTH side )… with French getting Collins’ permission to just use ONE MORE SEAT that was already ‘on scene’ to just ‘finish up’ that Miner’s Camp Road retardant line, and then start using the inbound VLATS on the YARNELL side of the fire…

    —————————————————————————————
    +3:48 ( 1551:46 / 3:51:46 PM )
    (B33 – French): Hey… do ya want us to finish up this… uh… this spot project with the SEAT comin’ on scene and… uh… then… move over to… uh… Yarnell? I’m not sure what we can do with a SEAT anyway over there?

    +3:56 ( 1551:54 / 3:51:54 PM )
    (AA – Collins): Yea… copy that… I’m thinkin’ VLAT on the other side when he gets in.
    Yea. That’d be great.

    +4:02 ( 1552:00 / 3:52:00 PM )
    (B33 – French): Okay. Copy that. Uh… Kilo Alpha… gotcha out of the dip. You’re cleared out and… uh… break Air Attack… we will… uh… we will complete that project… uh… there with the spots.

    +4:12 ( 1552:10 / 3:52:10 PM )
    (AA – Collins): Sounds good… and just so you’ll know… I’ve got about 10 minutes left uh… for my pilot to time out. Uh… we gotta head back and I don’t have a relief… are you gonna be okay?

    +4:22 ( 1552:20 / 3:52:20 PM )
    (B33 – French): That’s affirmative… we will.. ah… we are… uh… we will take the fire.My right seater’s been… uh.. copying everything and… uh… we will pass that on to Bravo three as well.

    +4:31 ( 1552:29 / 3:52:29 PM )
    (AA – Collins): Excellent man… and I’ll letcha know when I’m out.

    +4:35 ( 1552:33 / 3:52:33 PM )
    (B33 – French): You got it.

    —————————————————————————————

    So all Thomas French tells Collins is “WE will take the fire” ( BOTH me and John ).

    But while there was never any specific ‘Delegation of Authority’ with regards to ‘Air Attack’ responsibilities… it’s obvious from the recordings that the way Thomas French and John Burfiend were going to ‘split’ these duties between them was simply who is monitoring which radio channel.

    Thomas French would take responsibility for EVERYTHING on the Air-To-Air channel, and NOTHING happening over the Air-To-Ground channel.

    John Burfiend would take responsibility for EVERYTHING on the Air-To-Ground channel, and would, in fact, be the one who should ‘respond’ to calls to “Air Attack” over that Air-To-Ground channel.

    >> Marti also said…
    >>
    >> It was Burfiend’s job to map out the changed strategy, unless I’m
    >> missing something. And, unless I’m missing something, that process
    >> of changing the strategy would have had to have been in coordination
    >> with people on the ground, i.e. would have been communicated
    >> over Air 2 Ground, not Air 2 Air.
    >>
    >> Am I missing something????

    Well… regardless of the fact that French and Burfiend just decided to ‘split’ the Air Attack duties by just deciding who would listen to which radio channel… there actually IS a piece of evidence which establishes that after Rory Collins left, Thomas French DID consider his right-seater ( John Burfiend ) to be the ‘Air Attack’.

    That piece of evidence ONLY appears for a brief moment in the SAIT’s interview notes from their ‘Bravo 33’ interview…

    NOTE: ADOSH was NEVER allowed to interview French or Burfiend.

    From the SAIT Investigation Interview Notes with ‘Bravo 33’ ( French and Burfiend )…
    ——————————————————————————
    We had been there about 1 ½ hours when air attack on the scene told us he had to leave. (1700 NM time). It was a strange change out. He just said “you have the fire, I’m leaving”…
    Tom said “hey dude, you are the air attack”. He also stated that his relief pilot was unable to make it and his pilot timed out. He had to leave. We decided we were going to go here (pointed to Div Z) and go direct. Took the single SEAT.

    ——————————————————————————

    These interview notes are an absolute mess as far as knowing WHO ( French or Burfiend ) is actually being ‘quoted’ at any given time in the notes themselves… but there ARE a few places where a ‘name’ is used and it’s easy to tell whether it was John Burfiend or Thomas French being ‘quoted’.

    The following is ONE of those ‘identifiable’ quotes…

    Tom said “hey dude, you are the air attack”

    There is no other way to read that other than, apparently, at some time right around when Rory Collins departed Yarnell ( at 3:58 PM ), Tom ( Thomas French ) is the one who turned to John Burfiend and said “Hey dude, YOU are the Air Attack”.

    But notice something else very, very ODD about the TIME REFERENCES in just this one section of the ‘Bravo 33’ interview.

    The way it is written… they are making it sound like the moment that Rory Collins left the fire ( at 3:58 PM ), and Thomas French turned to John Burfiend and said “Hey dude, YOU are the Air Attack”… that they ( French and Burfiend ) immediately decided (quote)…

    “We decided we were going to go here ( pointed to Div Z – Yarnell / Glen Ilah ) and go direct”.

    That is NOT what happened. Not then ( 3:58 PM ), anyway.

    All of sudden… even these ‘interview notes’ with French and Burfiend are ‘leaving out’ the entire 40 ( FORTY ) MINUTES between the time Rory Collins left the fire and when ‘Bravo 33’ finally DID turn its attention to the Yarnell / Glen Ilah side of the fire.

    ‘Bravo 33’ ( French and Burfiend ) STAYED on the NORTH side of the fire, continuing to make drops in the ( already evacuated ) Miner’s Camp and Model Creek Road area(s) until 4:25 PM… even though it had now been at least 35 minutes since Air Attack Rory Collins had TOLD them to shift their focus to the OTHER side of the fire… and at least 30 minutes since SPGS1 Gary Cordes had asked ‘Air Support’ ( via Todd Abel ) to PLEASE start “Dropping at will” immediately near Yarnell to “try and save what you can while there is still time”.

    So that ‘SECTION’ of SAIT Interview notes really should have looked like this…

    From the SAIT Investigation Interview Notes with ‘Bravo 33’ ( French and Burfiend )…
    ——————————————————————————
    We had been there about 1 ½ hours when air attack on the scene told us he had to leave. (1700 NM time). It was a strange change out. He just said “you have the fire, I’m leaving”…
    Tom said “hey dude, you are the air attack”. He also stated that his relief pilot was unable to make it and his pilot timed out. He had to leave.
    ——————————————————————————

    40 ( FORTY MINUTES GO BY WHILE ‘BRAVO 33’ JUST REMAINS ON
    THE NORTH SIDE OF THE FIRE

    Then… ( at 4:25 PM )…

    ——————————————————————————
    We decided we were going to go here (pointed to Div Z) and go direct. Took the single SEAT.

    ——————————————————————————

    So while there is some ‘proof’ ( SAIT interview notes ) that Thomas French actually did consider John Burfiend to be the ‘Air Attack’ following Rory Collins’ sudden departure at 3:58 PM… we still do NOT KNOW exactly what ‘understanding’ French and Burfiend had for how they were going to handle both ‘Air Attack’ and ‘Lead Plane’ duties.

    The only thing that is obvious ( in the subsequent recordings ) is that Thomas French was not TOTALLY in charge of ALL airplanes, and anything to do with the Air-To-Air radio traffic… and John Burfiend was totally in charge of just the Air-To-Ground channel.

    Who was actually ‘CALLING THE SHOTS’ about what they SHOULD or SHOULD NOT be doing with regards to the overall ‘Air Support Plan’ for the next hour ( until even they left Yarnell )… we still don’t know.

    All we know is that when Rory Collins left the fire… he thought ‘Bravo 33’ was going to just use the ONE remaining SEAT that was already ‘on scene’ to make ONE MORE DROP on the NORTH side of the fire… and then ‘Bravo 33’ was going to immediately change the ‘Air Support’ priorities to the YARNELL side of the fire… just like he TOLD them to at 3:50 PM and just like ( supposedly ) the overall Ground Operations Supervisor ( Abel ) had REQUESTED circa 3:50 PM…

    …and then it didn’t happen. Not for another 40 ( FORTY ) minutes.

    • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

      Whoops. Typo above. I typed ‘not’ where I should have type ‘now’.

      Paragraph above should have read like this…

      The only thing that is obvious ( in the subsequent recordings ) is that Thomas French was NOW TOTALLY in charge of ALL airplanes, and anything to do with the Air-To-Air radio traffic… and John Burfiend was totally in charge of just the Air-To-Ground channel.

      • Marti Reed says

        I completely understand what you are saying.

        My problem with that is that, as far as I understand it (from my un-enlightened position as a simple citizen sitting here in my kitchen participating in this via my iMac), that’s not how it’s supposed to work. Although, Google-searching “Air Support Module” is not leading me to anything that describes how an “Air Support Module” is supposed to work. So maybe I’m off-base and we need someone with actual experience to weigh in on this

        My understanding (from I’m not sure where I got it but I got it from somewhere) is that an “Air Support Module” has a person who is qualified to function as an “Air Attack” and a person who is qualified to function as a “Lead Plane Pilot.” And that that is what Bravo 33 was, essentially. My understanding is that the “Lead Plane Pilot” is not in charge of determining the strategy. My understanding is that the person who is qualified to function as an “Air Attack” is the person in charge of determining the strategy.

        My understanding is that Bravo 33 went to Yarnell as an “Air Support Module,” capable of serving in that function, and that when they arrived, there was already an Air Attack. So French was then taking his orders from Air Attack Rory Collins, and not Burfiend AT THAT TIME. I.e. Bravo 33 was, AT THAT TIME, serving as a Lead Plane (and not as an Air Support Module). So AT THAT TIME French, the pilot, was communicating with, and taking orders from, Air Attack Rory Collins, while Burfiend was taking notes in order to prepare to serve as Air Attack if he had to.

        None of this puts French “in charge” of anything, other than leading the aerial pilots through the tactics designed to serve the strategy that Air Attack is planning and ordering.

        And, THEN, when THAT Air Attack Rory Collins left, that’s when Bravo 33 started serving as an “Air Support Module,” not just a Lead Plane.

        Thus, my understanding is that when French told Burfiend that he was “now Air Attack,” he was not “designating” Burfiend (from a position of authority over Burfiend) to be “Air Attack.” He was just saying to Burfiend, something along the lines of “hey, Burfiend, I guess you are now Air Attack because Rory Collins is leaving.”

        So that, at that point in time, Burfiend was not just a guy communicating over Air 2 Ground, but the guy IN CHARGE of the strategy, who would then, henceforth, tell French what that strategy was. And French was, from that moment on, working for Burfiend, leading the pilots through the tactics designed to serve Burfiend’s strategies.

        So then, henceforth, Burfiend would be the one DETERMINING whether to keep doing what they were doing (which apparently was the case for that 40 minutes), or to stop doing that and, instead, head south to Yarnell and start working there, (which they didn’t).

        So the issue I am having with you is not about what they did (I don’t have any issue with you regarding that).

        It’s about who had the AUTHORITY to have been CALLING THE SHOTS regarding that (regardless of how it sounds on the video). I think that person was Burfiend and not French. That’s my disagreement with you.

        Aaaaaaaaaand, that is why I think we need the Air 2 Ground recording in order to flesh this out, which I am 99.999999 % sure exists somewhere.

        Peace?

        • Marti Reed says

          PS. I have no idea whatsoever what was, exactly, the intepersonal “human factors” relationship between French and Burfiend.

          Maybe there is a possibility that was in play.

          Regardless, I think I have relatively correctly described how this is all designed to work and how I think, essentially, it was generally working.

          YMMV

          • Bob Powers says

            The Problem—
            One Plane functioning with two different responsibilities.
            The Pilot in the Left seat was and continued to be the Lead Plane Pilot.
            The person in the left seat became the Air Attack Supervisor.

            This is not a common occurrence except in Initial Attack.
            Normally only one person in the Cock Pit the Lead plane Pilot.

            With this fire and a lot of Ground to air The AA was working that or requests for retardant. Location Identification.

            This was one plane doing two jobs. The AA in a separate Plane would have been able to circle out of the way and check on things like GM
            and Fire movement.

            The Lead plane was working with Air Tankers to drop Retardant making checks for runs and LEADING THE AIRTANKERS THROUGH THE FLIGHT PATTEREN TO TARGET.

            So you have two people in one plane discussing drop requests and making decisions. Each were handling two seperiate Channels.

            The lead plane was not in a position to circle the fire and also put Tankers on drops. That may explain some of the problems with getting to the next priority. A separate plane with AA would be able to see and check new problems while the Lead Plane was finishing its Tanker Runs.
            Also change Priorities to different locations.

            Bottom line is the one plane which was FIRST the Lead plane had that Higher responsibility. With no Air Tankers in the Air or making runs they would have time to check other locations on the Fire.

            I believe this may have caused a lot of the delay. Also there were Helicopters working near Yarnell dropping Water this may have also delayed any retardant Air craft from moving to that area. Just another consideration.

            The whole system was designed to work with separate planes. It will and did here bog down with one plane. All of this is no more than information that may explain the time lapse and what they could do.

            Another check point is who was setting priorities or requests on the Ground.
            Normally OPS tells AA what and where they want drops. They also will designate a DIVS or Other Overhead on specific portions of line with authority to request drops.

            That’s Normal this fire was never NORMAL.

  29. Marti Reed says

    OK before I stomp off in frustration and get back to Daily Kos insanity, moving (still…..) and my photography, I’m going to bring this up to the top because I think it got buried and I want people to be aware of it.

    It was during the discussion of who might have been monitoring what was going on regarding Granite Mountain.

    ——————————————————————–

    Marti Reed says
    MAY 24, 2016 AT 3:54 AM

    Seen in the video captured at 4:05 PM, at the observation spot on Hiway 89, looking southwest toward “the ridge”, from left to right:

    Paul Musser’s blue truck

    Yavapai County Fire Department Battalion Chief Cougan Carothers

    Safety Officer (with the GM intracrew frequency on his radio which he had previously cloned off of Darrell Willis’ radio) Tony Sciacca.

    Structure Protection Group Supervisor Yavapai County Fire Department Battalion Chief Gary Cordes in his truck (who later ordered his Strike Team Leader Trainee to send “a couple of engines to Boulder Springs Ranch” to pick up Granite Mountain)

    And, most likely (since they were having their meeting there), Field OPS Paul Musser sitting next to Gary Cordes in Gary’s truck.

    But, of course, nobody knew what was happening. Nope, not at all.

    Reply

    ———————————————————————————-

    Marti Reed says
    MAY 24, 2016 AT 4:33 AM

    Well, I have to throw this in before I go back to bed, since probably not everybody reading here has followed the long and winding trail of conversations related to the discovery of the “Hail Mary Plan” which took FOREVER to discover.

    Because CONTEXT MATTERS, as it relates to the video.

    This video is captured about 15 minutes or so after Structure Group Supervisor CYFD Battalion Chief Gary Cordes ordered Blue Ridge Hotshot Cory Ball to (after obtaining the ATV he obtained from the Yarnell Fire Department) go into Glen Ilah and (with one other) “scout a possible dozer line” (my quotes are probably not exact because I’m doing this off the top of my head) from, apparently, approximately where the dozer was staged through a wash toward the road leading into the Boulder Springs Ranch.

    So, Gary Cordes most likely had this inside his head as he was sitting there in his truck, mostly likely right next to Field OPS Paul Musser (who had previously asked, about 20 minutes or so earlier, if — according to his ADOSH interview, at least — if GMHS were “available” and they had — according to the same interview — said they were still “committed to the ridge”).

    OK. I’m REALLY going back to bed now.

    Reply

    —————————————————————

    I’m trying to keep this in mind during the current discussion regarding Bravo 33 and “We’ll send Air Support ASAP” and all the other whatevers.

    • Marti Reed says

      And PS.

      Even though it buried my post, I REALLY appreciate WTKTT bringing forth and explicating the “damn emails.”

      • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

        We still haven’t even really scratched the surface of what’s in those emails.

        I’ll be getting back to those when things ‘quiet down’ some ( unless someone else wants to press ahead before I get the chance ).

          • Bob Powers says

            Marti—
            On the Dozer there is a huge difference between Staged and The Parking Place of the Low Boy. Which the Dozer returned to.
            Did he load and get the hell out of there or did he ride out the fire there?????

            I think he left and that is why they lost tract of him.
            Dose not take long to walk the Dozer on to the Low boy lift ramps and moved.

            No one sits out a burn over if they have other options. The Dozer had options and time. He had no supervisor or Radio to tell Supervisor—
            CORY BELL——

            • Woodsman says

              Bob,

              You said:

              “The Dozer had options and time. He had no supervisor or Radio to tell Supervisor—
              CORY BELL——”

              The BR IHC unit logs state that they gave the dozer operator one of their spare radios. I believe initially Cordes? was acting as a dozer boss before the task was handed over to a member of BR, Cory Ball. So I believe the dozer operator (Morin) had a radio & a supervisor at Yarnell Hill.

              Woodsman

              • Bob Powers says

                That’s right but Cory Bell took it when they headed back to the Low Boy and he headed to get a 4 wheeler. The dozer Operator then had no Radio. He was a county Road equipment not Fire Equipment. He had no Fire Radio in the Dozer and I do not think the Low Boy had one either. Reason he went off Radar when he gave back the BR radio No one could contact him.

                • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

                  Reply to Bob Powers post on
                  May 31, 2016 at 11:48 am

                  >> Bob Powers said…
                  >>
                  >> The dozer Operator then had no Radio.
                  >> No one could contact him.

                  Unless someone gave him ANOTHER one.

                  Perfectly possible.

                  From Blue Ridge Hotshot Cory Ball’s TYPED Unit Log…

                  “Structure group one assigns me and one other to locate possibility of dozer line
                  to southwest of Yarnell.

                  “southwest of Yarnell” means the WEST end of Glen Ilah… and near the Boulder Springs Ranch.

                  “Structure group one” means ( of course ) Gary Cordes.

                  We still don’t know who the “one other” is that Cory Ball specifically mentions receiving the same ‘assignment’ from SPGS1 Gary Cordes.

                  It could have easliy been Paul Morin himself.

                  If that ‘directive’ from Cordes happened WHILE Cory Ball was riding the dozer back to the staging area… and the dozer ( Operator = Paul Morin ) was now also supposed to be involved in this “plan”… then Cory Ball could have easily given Paul Morin ANOTHER handheld radio ( from the Blue Ridge Chase Truck ) as soon as they arrived back at the loboy and Chase truck staging area.

                  We still DO NOT KNOW what really happened with Paul Morin and the dozer.

                  • Bob Powers says

                    Its a pretty solid fact he did not burn up out there and was found later parked at the County Road department
                    Low Boy and Dozer loaded. We know that for sure.

                    They went back to the Low Boy Parking area it was not a staging area it was where the Dozer unloaded.

                    Why would Ball take the Radio if he expected to be working with the Dozer again?????

                    All my back ground says you park the dozer while you scout possible line. especially when you may or may not move to a new site.

                    Bell never could scout the site because it was already to late by the time he got the 4wheeler..

                    • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

                      Reply to Bob Powers post on
                      May 31, 2016 at 1:39 pm

                      >> Bob Powers said…
                      >>
                      >> Its a pretty solid fact he did not
                      >> burn up out there

                      Nobody ever said he did ( unless there was another body removed secretly and a 20th death totally covered up ).

                      >> and was found later parked at the
                      >> County Road department Low Boy
                      >> and Dozer loaded.

                      ‘Found’… by WHO? WHEN?

                      >> Bob Powers also said…
                      >>
                      >> We know that for sure.

                      We do? Refresh my memory, then.

                      WHERE are you getting the information that supports the carte-blanche statements you are now making?

                      >> Bob Powers also said…
                      >>
                      >> They went back to the Low Boy
                      >> Parking area it was not a staging
                      >> area it was where the Dozer unloaded.

                      Semantics. If Paul Morin was told to ‘stay there’ while Cory Ball delivered the BR Chase Truck over to the RHR and then proceeded to borrow that ATV so he could get BACK out there… then Paul Morin was ‘staging’ there.

                      >> Bob Powers also said…
                      >>
                      >> Why would Ball take the Radio
                      >> if he expected to be working
                      >> with the Dozer again?????

                      Maybe he didn’t take it… because he really WAS expecting to return with the ATV and ‘scout dozer line to the southwest of Yarnell’… exactly as Gary Cordes had TOLD him to do.

                      I repeat: We still DO NOT KNOW the ‘full story’ with regards to Paul Morin and the dozer.

                      2 investigations and now 3 published books later… and we still DO NOT KNOW if he even had to ride out the fire out there in that large clearing at the end of Lakewood and Manzanita… or WHY he mysteriously ended up on the list of ‘missing persons’ that DPS Helicopter Ranger 58 was supposed to be ‘looking for’ after the deployment.

                    • Bob Powers says

                      WTKTT you are beginning to sound like another book with out real facts.

                      They quit looking for the Tractor that night when they found it on the County Compound.

                      Get back to reality man. They had no search after dark for the Tractor. The crew became the only missing.

                      The record says Cory took the Radio when he left the cat It was BR’s Radio. Its in the BR notes.

                      My conclusion shift over. He loaded and left rather than get his equipment Burned.

                      I would suggest that to be a plausible Conclusion.

                    • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

                      Reply to Bob Powers post on
                      May 31, 2016 at 9:19 pm

                      >> Bob Powers said…
                      >>
                      >> WTKTT you are beginning to sound like
                      >> another book with out real facts.
                      >>
                      >> They quit looking for the Tractor that
                      >> night hen they found it on the County
                      >> Compound.
                      >>
                      >> The record says Cory took the Radio
                      >> when he left the cat Its in the BR notes.

                      You’ve gone absolutely ‘delusional’ on us now, Bob.

                      Sorry… in a month that started with the TRUTH about the Yarnell Fire taking a huge beating… I’m not gonna let you ‘close out the month’ with this kind of absolute BULLSHIT.

                      “It ain’t what he doesn’t known that’ll scare ya… it’s what he knows fer sure that just ain’t so.”
                      Mark Twain

                      See a longer reply above ( with the PROOF that you are full of shit on this one )…

                      http://www.investigativemedia.com/please-begin-yarnell-hill-chapter-xxi-here/#comment-337892

              • Joy A. Collura says

                Paul Morin

                HASHTAG moment

                maybe when “retired age” Paul George Morin or someone who knows the Prescott Valley Resident googles the name it will redirect them to this area and he/they will read direct your questions and comments and ANSWER them. He is very important to my inquiries 6-30-13 for people who lost their homes-

                hashtag also- his in recent years deceased mother-in-law had a passion- taking an interest in everyone and everything just like me so maybe he will in regards to 6-30-13—

                or if any of you are brazen enough—I am not with that person but I have on others- google his public number and call him direct-

                Paul Morin’s mother Clarinda would be a woman I would know and be friends with in my life- she was a school teacher and a true woman and I can see her son eventually doing the true way as well and speak up- “maybe”

                I think a few years back when I ran a search on him he has family “tied” into the firefighter community—not sure if it was Cornville/Cottonwood/Sedona area…and he may not “speak up”

                another strike is his wife works for County

                – see:
                https://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=894&dat=19960408&id=mBoOAAAAIBAJ&sjid=iH0DAAAAIBAJ&pg=2317,920150&hl=en

                plus they live in the very community that pays their lifestyles/bills

                just saying

                probably not going to ever see or hear from Paul Morin

                hashtag

            • Marti Reed` says

              I think he left Glen Ilah and went somewhere and, apparently, “nobody” knew where he went.

              He didn’t leave the fire because he was back again after the fire burned through Glen Ilah, getting himself tangled up in the power line.

  30. Marti Reed says

    OK i have painstakingly read through the past four days worth of comments here, and I just have to say this place has gone, essentially, nuts.

      • Joy A. Collura says

        I am just awaiting missing elements and re-posting old photos for newbies and reading how to make a map of my trails to try it to have it lock up-
        about sums my past few days.

        • Marti Reed says

          The whole thing about the aerial thing. And the geography.

          I’ve appreciated your posting of your photos. And I’ve tried to help time-stamp them downstream.

          And I’m looking forward to your maps. I finally got a geo-recorder for my Canon 70D. It captures the coordinates and puts them in a map in Lightroom (or on Google Earth if I want to.).

          I really need to get back to my photography, which has languished. I have a 30-day Photoshop Bootcamp coming up in later June. Hope that will help me get back to photography.

          Hope you are feeling better!!! Namaste.

        • Joy A. Collura says

          so if we look at the past few days Marti- I do capitalize on most comments so in reality you should not say “you guys” because I am the one who has been in a lot of pain with on one side of my body a tumor is screwing with me and on the other side passing kidney stones and been a lot of pain so I do my regimen and walks but it’s a lot of pain and awaiting relief so if it makes it better for you because I adore you I can pass on logging on IM—because your work and your presence IS important-

    • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

      Reply to Bob Powers post on May 30, 2016 at 3:00 pm

      >> Bob Powers said…
      >>
      >> Were Helicopters working Yarnell?

      You’re kidding me now, right?

      >> A lot going on we are not hearing. I have tried to explain that before.
      >>
      >> You need to check more of the data before throwing the Blame around.
      >> Some has not been given to us. Like all the Helicopter Traffic.
      >> I doubt any of that was copied.

      You are obviously totally clueless about what was happening in the Air that day… and what really is in the evidence record and the recordings.

      So much so that there is no point continuing this conversation.

      PLEASE go and listen to the Air-To-Air channel recordings.

      They are ALL sitting in this online folder…

      https://www.dropbox.com/sh/02ue6bnjp6nazkm/AABsWIxpJqjgl7GDgeB8sQ8ua/Photos%20and%20Video/AerialFirefightingstudy/Panebaker/Video/Video_with_134175_audio?dl=0

      • Bob Powers says

        I agree with one thing you are spending to much time with the recordings and not checking other things that affect the Air show.

        • Bob Powers says

          The real clueless one is WTKTT your arrogance is over riding your ability to Listen to others. and evaluate and discuss.

          YES I HAVE LISTENED TO ALL OF THE RECORDINGS
          I have been here as well for 3 years.

          You have– one never been on a Fire Number two never been in a Air attack Plane, Number three never managed a Heliport with several Helicopters doing Water drops, Number four set in a Plain with several channels going off and talking on others at the same time while below you thing are totally going to hell.

          So I am not trying to tell you what happened but tell you how things happen and why.

          THE RECORDINGS ARE NOT THE COMPLETE STORY

          To tell me I am totally clueless to what was happening in the air that day
          is like saying I have never been there or that my 500 hours in that position has no relevance to your conclusions.

          This discussion is not under your leadership it is a group discussion you were never name the Leader here nor was any one else.

          You might reflect on the fact that two of us have been attempting two tell you do not know it all from just recordings.

          • Woodsman says

            Bob,

            I agree that the A2A recordings do not tell the whole story but they are excellent evidence of what was happening from the aerial resources perspective. The recordings tell a part of the story that helps put pieces of the puzzle together. It would be great to have the A2G audio as well as it would serve to put more pieces together.

            Sure is frustrating that everywhere one looks for the important information, the PTB have either muted or otherwise rendered the audio almost useless. I believe this is be design.

            Woodsman

            • Bob Powers says

              My understanding is the Air to Ground was not being recorded except where it was picked up by some other recording.

              The Helitack Operation was not being recorded as well.

              Some Fire camps once set up record all channels but that is not a standard thing.

              My points were that there is a lot more going on out side the AtoA.

              You might also go back and read what WTKTT printed on the Conversations between French and Collins.

              Two things to Note—They were finishing drops with a SEAT near peoples Valley on Spot Fires.
              French says he did not think they could do any good with it in Yarnell. At 1554 and would wait for the VALT.

              • Woodsman says

                Bob,

                Do you know for sure that the A2G was not recorded or just a hunch? My hunch, since they were doing an air study that day. is that it would be unusual to leave out the A2G portion of the aircraft work. It’s an ‘Aerial Firefighting Study.’ I’ll have to check some things to see if I can find out what they typically include and exclude.

                Yes, and I agree that there’s a lot more going on outside of A2A and that’s why it would be extremely beneficial to hear the A2G traffic for better context of what was happening.

                Thanks,

                Woodsman

                • Bob Powers says

                  My understanding as in not for sure.

                  I believe that they would have had to have two different recorders hooked up in the same plane to record both.
                  or the Pilot was recorded and if he switched to A to G then
                  That might have picked up and recorded ground?.

                  • Woodsman says

                    Bob,

                    I’m thinking that our technology has more than progressed enough to be able to record radio traffic without having a device actually installed in the aircraft. This is the 21st century. And I’m not trying to poke you with a stick either. You can’t seriously believe that an actual recorder has to be physically installed in the actual aircraft in order to record the radio traffic, can you?

                    Maybe I’m misunderstanding why you’re trying to say?

                    Woodsman

                  • Woodsman says

                    Bob,

                    I’m thinking that our technology has more than progressed enough to be able to record radio traffic without having a device actually installed in the aircraft. This is the 21st century. And I’m not trying to poke you with a stick either. You can’t seriously believe that an actual recorder has to be physically installed in the actual aircraft in order to record the radio traffic, can you?

                    Maybe I’m misunderstanding what you’re trying to say?

                    Woodsman

                    • Bob Powers says

                      Not A recorder but like a computer stick.

                      The problem is two different people on different freq. The pilot may have had the recording A to A on his set but not on the other seat that was using A to G. I do not know but there seems to be nothing on A to G. So only my thoughts. And you can poke I am OLD …….

                      You would think there would be the ability to record every thing.

                  • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

                    And not only that… some time ago I spent a LOT of time looking for specific information about this Federally-Funded “Aerial Firefighting Study” that Eric Panebaker and his crew were being PAID to do ( again… totally with TAXPAYER dollars ) that day in Yarnell.

                    I wanted to see if the SPECIFICATIONS for the contracted Air Study actually REQUIRED the A2G channel to be recorded along with the A2A channel.

                    No joy.

                    As far as the Federal Government seems to have been concerned… Eric Panabaker and his entire crew might have been taking home taxpayer-dollar paychecks for all that work they were doing…

                    …but there is NO RECORD of that specific “Aerial Firefighting Study” ever having been authorized, or subcontracted to Panebaker, or anything.

                    Like it never existed.

                    Your tax dollars at work.

                    • Woodsman says

                      WTKTT,

                      No joy indeed. That’s what I was searching for: specifications for the data collection to see if it entails all air traffic (A2G etc.)

                      I even looked for ANY similar aerial firefighting study to learn of the typical contents….no joy.

                      The dead link has challenged me to search harder. They can’t hide it all…….if they have endeavored to ‘hide it’ that is.

                      I’m telling you line ff’s out there:

                      YOU’RE ON YOUR FREAKIN’ OWN!

                      Watch out for yourselves and each other. Do not count on managers or HQ to cover you. You must do your due diligence. Eyes wide open!!!

                      Here we go, Fire Season 2016. Fingers crossed….

                      Woodsman

              • Joy A. Collura says

                Bob said:My understanding is the Air to Ground was not being recorded except where it was picked up by some other recording.
                MY REPLY: my understanding there is a mysterious notebook binder …maybe a trapper keeper is a good name to call it…and it has additional air to ground details that could help clarify///just saying///rightdale1///using your lingo today :)/////

                • Woodsman says

                  Joy,

                  Are you referring to Dale that works or worked in the Arizona dispatch and handled aircraft?

                  Thanks!

                  Woodsman

                  • Joy A. Collura says

                    no—I mentioned IM’s dale who uses /////// in his posts and it seems by chance Bob and I did too today and I was on cell and did not feel like erasing it and fixing it so the ///// stayed-

                    but maybe that is the Dale who visits here—that works or worked in the Arizona dispatch and handled aircraft

                    • Woodsman says

                      …………….you mean Dale that works in Arizona dispatch & handles aircraft………………………come on Dale, help us out.

            • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

              Reply to Rocksteady post on May 31, 2016 at 11:32 am

              >> Rocksteady said…
              >>
              >> I got to agree.

              Agree… on what?

              That we don’t have the FULL story on why Thomas French would give his boss ( Air Attack Rory Collins ) the full impression that he would do what Collins had TOLD him to do, at 3:50 PM… and then did no such thing for another 40 minutes?

              Of course we don’t.

              Full A2G recordings could suddenly ‘fall out from behind a filing cabinet’ somewhere… and even those recordings probably won’t tell the WHOLE story.

              Example: These two men ( Thomas French and John Burfiend ) were sitting NEXT to each other in the same airplane. There was a THIRD person onboard as well ( ATGS(t) Trainee Clint Cross ).

              We will probably NEVER know what ANY of these men were actually saying to EACH OTHER, within the cockpit of the aircraft itself.

              But that still doesn’t mean the evidence we DO have doesn’t “tell a story”. It does.

              And to tie all this back to what really kicked it all off in the first place… the answer is YES… we DO have ‘enough evidence’ already to say that DIVSA Eric Marsh had a right to BELIEVE ( circa 3:50 PM ) that ‘Air Support’ was SUPPOSED to shift its attention to the YARNELL side of the fire… at any moment following 3:50 PM… and that simple BELIEF *may* have been a big factor in the subsequent decision making on his part… and the part of ‘others’ down there on that side of the fire.

              Another example: Gary Cordes called OPS1 Abel on his cellphone just 4 minutes after OPS1 Todd Abel told Marsh (quote) “We’ll get some Air Support down there As SOON as Possible”.
              Gary Cordes told OPS1 Abel to TELL ‘Air Support’ to PLEASE start “Dropping a WILL” there on the Yarnell / Glen Ilah side of the fire and just try to save whatever they could in whatever window of opportunity remained to do that, circa 3:55 PM.

              So even SPGS1 Gary Cordes, down there on the Yarnell side, had every reason to BELIEVE that was going to happen.

              It didn’t. We know that now.

              But there is already solid proof that at least TWO of the men ‘running the show’ on that Yarnell / Glen Ilah side of the fire ( both DIVSA Marsh and SPGS1 Cordes ) had every reason to believe ( circa 3:55 PM ) that ‘Air Support’ was going to show up down there in ‘full force’… at any moment.

              So I hope that ( finally ) answers Muzzy’s original question.

              The answer is YES… there is still every reason to believe that the ‘expectation’ of imminent ‘Air Support Focus’, circa 3:55, played a factor in the decision making that was happening ‘down there’ on the Yarnell / Glen Ilah side of the fire.

    • Muzzy says

      Bob,

      Not an expert and wasn’t there, but this is from the BRIHC interview:

      When they get back to the buggies, Travis has recloned all the radios in attempt to improve radio commo. The crew witness’ a near miss with the VLAT and the helitanker. B4 B & T get back to the buggies, Travis feels that AA sounds overwhelmed, the air show seemed troublesome. The helos seemed to be free lancing dropping where they want, no one directing them on tactics. This is when the helitanker splits the east flank. The tankers and helo’s aren’t picking up the black and establishing good black, no solid anchor point. Hit and miss, spotty, unanchored drops of water. Tankers were going indirect, this is when True says were going defensive around 1200-1215. This is when the seasonals say, this is like the Swiss cheese effect…Trew comes back with we need a piece of cheese. This is just one big hole.

      • Marti Reed says

        I think Bob is looking at this more through a lens of how it’s supposed to, normally, be done. And, probably, more often, is.

        Some of the rest of us are looking at it more through a lens of how it actually happened, according to the digital records that we have access to.

        Therein lies the bumpiness, imho.

        • Muzzy says

          Hmm, ok. I guess my question here is,”How out of the ordinary was the AA activity on this fire compared to others?” The SAIR interviews, combined with the recorded radio traffic shows individual pilots telling hotshots to dig a direct rather than indirect line, and enforcing that”request” by dropping retardant on the first, and then the second indirect lines. Pilots dropping retardant with no apparent rhyme or reason, pilots leaving at critical times, etc. There is also some discussion of what actually happened vs what was reported in the SAIR interviews.

          There is the ideal of everyone agreeing on a plan and getting the fire out toot-sweet, but when leadership is lacking, or when conditions deteriorate, how much latitude do pilots get to decide what they do? Is the situation we see at YHF within the normal range?

          Some of this started when I asked whether commitment of aerial support in the south end of the fire might have influenced GMIHC’s decision to move from the black.

          Bob Powers and others have rightly pointed out that no promise of air support should have brought them out of the black, but something did and I wondered if it was that Marsh saw a place for GM on the south end. If that was the case, was anyone else aware of that plan?

          • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

            Reply to Muzzy post on May 30, 2016 at 8:42 pm

            >> Muzzy said…
            >>
            >> Some of this started when I asked whether commitment
            >> of aerial support in the south end of the fire might have
            >> influenced GMIHC’s decision to move from the black.

            It was ( and remains ) a GOOD question.

            But don’t worry about asking a ‘question’ around here and then watching it launch it what appear to be all kinds of ‘side’ issues.

            It happens all the time.

            All I was really trying to do was answer your question in the context that YES… there is a LOT of evidence that Eric Marsh had every reason to believe that ‘Air Support’ was going to be shifting its focus to the YARNELL side of the fire at any moment… from 3:50 PM onward, if not sooner.

            At 3:50:08 PM… we HEAR OPS1 Abel tell Marsh “we’ll get some air support down there As Soon As Possible”.

            28 seconds later… at 3:50:36… we HEAR Air Attack Rory Collins telling the pilot of Lead Plane ‘Bravo 33’ ( Thomas French ) to do exactly what OPS1 Todd Abel told Eric Marsh he was going to do. To shift his ‘priorities’ to the YARNELL side of the fire… because there was a (quote) “heck of wind shift going on” and there was NOW (quote) “A LOT of fire headed towards Yarnell”.

            If OPS1 Todd Abel called Air Attack Rory Collins on the A2G channel immediately after telling Marsh he would “get some air support down there ASAP”… then Marsh himself would have most likely also HEARD OPS1 Todd Abel doing that ( on the A2G channel ).

            So that would have been just more ‘confirmation’ in Eric Marsh’s mind that this “shift in priorities” for the Air Support was ‘underway’ and it culd be assumed most of the Air Support would be showing up down around Yarnell at just about any moment.

            Then, just 4 minutes later… at 3:55 PM… SPGS1 Gary Cordes’ Unit Log ( and his ADOSH testimony ) says is when he called OPS1 Todd Abel with his cellphone and told OPS1 Abel to tell ‘Air Support’ to immediately start “Dropping at will” in and around Yarnell and Glen Ilah and try to (quote) “save anything that could be save while there was still time”.

            But NONE of that ever happened.

            ‘Air Support’ would not even begin to shift it’s attention to the Yarnell side of the fire for another 40 ( FORTY ) minutes.

            So THAT was the ‘side story’ that emerged from your question… but regardless of how long it took Air Support to shift its attention to YARNELL… your QUESTION was still centered around what Eric Marsh may or may not have BELIEVED circa 3:50 PM and onward.

            And the answer is still that from 3:50 PM onward… there WAS every reason for DIVSA Eric Marsh to believe that the ‘Air Support’ was going to suddenly appear in and around Yarnell and Glen Ilah at ‘any moment’… and that ‘belief’ MAY have been influencing the decisions that he ( and others? ) were making from 3:50 PM onward.

            No one knew ( circa 3:50 PM ) that ‘Bravo 33’ wouldn’t even bother to show up down there until around 4:25 PM… or start attempting to do anything at all for even another 5 minutes while French ‘checked it out’ because ( as he told the only SEAT left on-scene ) (quote) “This is my FIRST TIME DOWN HERE”.

            >> Muzzy also said…
            >>
            >> Bob Powers and others have rightly pointed out that
            >> no promise of air support should have brought them
            >> out of the black, but something did and I wondered
            >> if it was that Marsh saw a place for GM on the south
            >> end. If that was the case, was anyone else aware of
            >> that plan?

            See above.

            Regardless of all the ‘side stories’ that got launched down below… the answer to your original question is still YES… that from 3:50 PM onward… Marsh had every reason to simply BELIEVE that ‘Air Support’ might be ‘showing up’ down there at ‘any moment’.

              • Bob Powers says

                WTKTT
                To do what support the Crew no one asked for that from what we have. No one knew the crew was moving including AA. What was the targets in the south. I find nothing in the recording suggesting any Targets or Crew support.

                Really vague to make those conclusions. or assumptions.

                • Muzzy says

                  Hi Robert,

                  There is this: http://www.investigativemedia.com/please-begin-yarnell-hill-chapter-xxi-here/#comment-336878

                  discussing the statement from Abel that he would get some air support to the south, which Abel then passed to Collins, who then passed it to Bravo 33 about 15:50, who then left the scene and didn’t return until 16:25 or so.

                  I know, not much, and Marsh could have confirmed the aerial support before the guys left the saddle. Of course, that would have occurred during the lost half hour.

                  • Bob Powers says

                    Still Unknown what support meant nothing ever said on that. It is a very open statement to say the lest.

                    Again if every one thought the crew was in the black then there would have been no discussion on supporting the crew as they moved. There is no evidence that discussion took place.

                    At the time of this discussion the fire front was east to west north of the Dozer push and not to the Trucks, which could have been what they were talking about. The burning front was over a mile long and would have required a VALT to hit the whole line. They were waiting for the VALT to arrive at 1600. Need to look and see when the VALT arrived over the fire it was there when it was put on hold to look for GM. The smoke and wind was a huge factor by 1620 on the south side of The smoke column was over 6000 Ft by 1627.

                    That makes me believe this statement had nothing to do with the crew move. More to do with the fire activity near the trucks that had caused them to be moved.

                    So I will assume that while WTKTT assumes something else. If the crew was asking for air support for there move it would have been all over the OPS Radio and remember this was all before the Crew ever moved.

                    • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

                      Reply to Bob Powers post on
                      May 31, 2016 at 2:18 pm

                      >> Bob Powers said…
                      >>
                      >> That makes me believe this statement
                      >> had nothing to do with the crew move.

                      Okay… now you are finally ‘catching on’.

                      >> Bob Powers also said…
                      >>
                      >> So I will assume that while WTKTT
                      >> assumes something else.

                      What ‘something else’?

                      It is YOU that only now seems to be ‘coming around’ to the point I have ALWAYS been making… that this “promise of Air Support” from OPS1 Abel to DIVSA Marsh at 3:50 PM most likely had NOTHING to do with any kind of ‘Crew move’. It simply had to do with switching the FOCUS of ‘Air Support’ ( in general ) from up there on the NORTH side of the fire and down to the Yarnell / Glen Ilah side.

                      Period. End of story.

                      >> Bob Powers also said…
                      >>
                      >> If the crew was asking for air support
                      >> for there move it would have been
                      >> all over the OPS Radio.

                      I agree ( and have ALWAYS agreed ) with that.

                    • Bob Powers says

                      So we agree and some time what we say seems to get all screwed up in the discussion.
                      I have been there all along if you did not notice.
                      So we will agree on this point.

                    • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

                      Reply to Bob Powers post on
                      May 31, 2016 at 9:25 pm

                      >> Bob Powers said…
                      >>
                      >> So we agree and some time what
                      >> we say seems to get all screwed
                      >> up in the discussion.
                      >>
                      >> I have been there all along if you
                      >> did not notice.
                      >>
                      >> So we will agree on this point.

                      Fine.

                      Now click the following link and see how absolutely full of shit you STILL are over this whole ‘radio’ thing….

                      http://www.investigativemedia.com/please-begin-yarnell-hill-chapter-xxi-here/#comment-337892

        • Bob Powers says

          You are some what correct. I am also saying what is not on the Transmissions may as well be happening in the plane seats.

          The AA and the Lead Plane Pilot were able to talk to each other with out Radio.
          They were in the same plane.

          • Rocksteady says

            Even if ops 1 had made a full blown promise to Marsh that air support WILL be down on the Sputh end, that does not make it correct to leave the black and head there.

            10 and 18 does not say you can go blind into a canyon in unburned fuels IF you have a promise of Air Support

            • Muzzy says

              Rocksteady,

              I think we all agree that Marsh and Steed were 100% responsible for leading their guys into their valley of death. But neither did so thinking there was a high probability of death nor did they do it in a vacuum. My question is: what influence did overhead have in tilting the balance toward moving where they did?

              Somewhere in my reading I heard the speculation that they were tired and hungry and just trying to get to their buggies a little sooner! Maybe they had their own secret plan, shared with no one, to reap great glory by helping somehow in Yarnell. Possible, but if they had a plan, they would need input from someone else to pull it off. They had no transport, few tools. Maybe they planned to direct traffIc, commandeer the dozer? No, they expected something that was worth the risk, or was not as risky as we now see it was.

              I think it’s important to know because if there is still overhead out there running fires after they orchestrated (deliberately vague as to action or promise) this mess, They should at least agree to an action plan, don’t you think?

              • Bob Powers says

                I do not think they thought they were going to die I think Marsh thought they could take the risk and beat the Fire. Something he had done before and made it work.
                BAD DICISSIONS WITH GOOD OUTCOMES.

            • Woodsman says

              RS,

              Yes. Totally agree.

              I’m interested in all the factors both direct and indirect that influenced the decisions of various personnel on the Yarnell Hill fire that led to the death of almost an entire HS crew. The analysis doesn’t lead to a place that says it’s ok to do what GM did, there’s just a whole lot more to the story, in my opinion. It’s very complicated.

              Thanks,

              Woodsman

              • Joy A. Collura says

                Woodsman said:I’m interested in all the factors both direct and indirect that influenced the decisions of various personnel on the Yarnell Hill fire that led to the death of almost an entire HS crew.
                MYREPLY: and I would also add for me all the areas hiding in the dark that I call missing elements.

                RTS/BOB- you are right on one solid account- the end result and who led them there yet I just say don’t publicly state it until all the information is out…the real story still does lead to your perceptions…but await and behold and see and I know you both have details in lap and it is okay but really the end result is this fire cannot be properly assessed or judged or whatever until the missing elements surfaced- and not just some but all-

                • Bob Powers says

                  Joy It is all right there you just said it.

                  All the rest is information to the story. Yes there are missing pieces but that is jut part of the domino effect. at any point pull out the next domino and the whole fall down stops.

                  In other words the Crew had the ability to stop the falling dominos at several points with any of a number of Safety rules. Including staying right where they were in the BLACK.

      • Bob Powers says

        Muzzy you have a very sharp crew here in BR from top to bottom they knew a dog and pony show when they saw it………………Protect your ass at all costs.

        • Muzzy says

          Yup. I enjoyed reading their interview:

          Jason Clawson says, “another western day” they say they have an hour before the trigger point to start evacuating. BR knows they don’t have an hr.

          It was 15 minutes, I think.

          So, if everyone knew this was a cluster-even the prison crews walked out-is there any way to salvage it? Who’s responsible to recognize when they are in the weeds, to call time out, to get back on track? Or do you just walk away and start writing notes to CYA?

          • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

            Reply to Muzzy post on May 31, 2016 at 4:43 pm

            >> Muzzy said…
            >>
            >> So, if everyone knew this was a cluster-even the prison
            >> crews walked out-is there any way to salvage it? Who’s
            >> responsible to recognize when they are in the weeds, to
            >> call time out, to get back on track?

            If you are using ( or even pretending to use ) the “ICT” organizational command structure on an ‘Incident’… then the answer to your question is one-person-and-one-person-ONLY…

            The “Incident Commander” ( IC ).

            On Sunday, June 30, 2013… that was a guy named Roy Hall.

            USA Today
            Article Title: Forestry officials knowingly disregarded wildfire-planning rules, according to a state safety commission.
            Published: 12:06 a.m. EST December 5, 2013
            http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2013/12/04/ariz-forestry-division-fined-over-deadly-wildfire/3874215/

            From that article…
            ————————————————————
            PHOENIX — Arizona forestry officials knowingly disregarded wildfire-planning rules, sent crews into hazardous areas without adequate safety provisions and then failed to withdraw 19 Granite Mountain Hotshots as the Yarnell Hill Fire raged toward them last summer, a state safety commission ruled Wednesday.

            Citing the Arizona State Forestry Division’s willful and serious safety violations during its handling of the fatal blaze, the Industrial Commission of Arizona unanimously issued $559,000 in fines and penalties. That includes $25,000 to each firefighter’s family or estate.

            Because firefighters were not removed from harm’s way promptly and in keeping with established policies, the report concludes, 19 Granite Mountain Hotshots died.

            Roy Hall, incident commander on the Yarnell Hill Fire, could not be reached for comment.
            ————————————————————

  31. Joy A. Collura says

    wwtktt- on my walk today I will get you a “live” shot with my cell that can gps it for you for accurate location for your below ? versus saying general- okay. I will also confirm with the person we saved to ensure that was the time that Sonny says because all I know we arrived and I saw my home clock at 8:18pm and went to get Penny water and her pets and Sonny and so I do remember we went to gas station and dollar store and no one was there so I went home to get them water and wipes from the ash/embers and was talking to Nick and John and I took photos of my home inside and out for “just in case” and my husband wished me well and to keep him in the loop because my plan was to go hike back up one area and get more photos. Sonny had different stubborn plan. As we drove to Wickenburg and Sonny had to have his senior coffee at McDonalds I saw a couple looked so deeply distraught and I asked if they were from the Yarnell area and he Mr. Lobeck said yes as his wife was at beverage area and he could talk about it all and having to escape and their horses and pets but she was deeply shut down and he asked us for our contact information and I gave him my local hobby hiking page where I had already began to post all the photos from the hike. He was grateful. I must admit I ran into them recently and every time I saw his wife she looked depressed except this last town she looked so beautiful and I thought he was walking with his daughter but it was her so time has done her well- she looked really good…I cannot say happy but a lot lighter than prior times…more at ease…shit, she does not wear makeup or fuss to today’s looks but really I took note her life had transitioned to outer appearance peace- I also walked by their home that burned and it is being rebuilt slowly- they live near the Helm’s and why I always wondered how come people near the Helm’s never made it to SAIR for interviews-

    I downloaded google earth
    and I am on
    Web
    Use the Google Earth plug-in to enjoy 3D views of the globe on sites across the web or try Earth view in Google Maps.

    also started using tour builder beta-

    please help me comprehend now- how do I add locations by gps?
    or using marker on a map or is it where I have to do it another way-

    this is way new to me.

    • Joy A. Collura says

      I think I see how come she was more at peace-
      records show they do not own that home that burned down and is being rebuilt—
      Recording Date 02/11/2016 02:35:33 PM so that she does not have to go into Glen Ilah-
      understand that-
      That may of helped her to move forward-
      all I know she looked terrific.

    • Joy A. Collura says

      as I am on google earth not figuring this out wwtktt I am on google map maker for trail making and seems little easier-

      anyways HOW COME the SAIT did not do like adosh and wear a gps trail tracker and tell us what way we went “exactly” and hike them?

      weirs when I think about it when we were eyewitness to the day- hmmm.

      • Joy A. Collura says

        the map locked up- I will have to walk away from it for now—frustrating—go take that pic with cell now for you wwtktt..

    • Charlie says

      Between 6 and 7 we were on our way to pick up Penny, her 7 pets and two parakeets and head down the mountain toward Congress. Her family picked her up there at the Dollar Store–no one was allowed up the mountain–only to come out.

      • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

        Thank you… but I guess I didn’t make my request clear enough.

        EXACTLY where were you?

        Can you give me a street address?

        I want to plug this photo into Google Earth and I need to know exactly where you were STANDING when you took the photo.

        I can figure out the compass direction, no problem… I just need something I can locate on a MAP like an approximate street address or a LAT/LONG.

        If you can only remember the name of the STREET where you were standing… I can figure out the rest.

        • Charlie says

          This after noon maybe you saw the photo of my son Ted–something when I see it takes hold of my heart like nothing else does. There is no other greater heart break than loosing a son–nothing can replace him, nothing can assuage the hurt. Life of the young ones that inherit this planet is so very important-so very precious that we must understand every detail of the mistakes that took their lives. I would have gladly given my life for that son or the others and my daughter if I could. But we can not turn back time, nor can we control what errors caused their loss. We who have lost a love one know the value of their lives–we can only do our best to make sure someone after us does not have to suffer the ill fortune we have had to endure. Do not think we take their loss lightly.

          The heroes I see here are those trying to get to the actual facts and truth of why 17 young souls were killed. This information once public will save more than 17 young lives in future wild land fire fighting situations. This is why it is so important that people that know what actually happened to cause those deaths is so important. It is a duty that we all have to find all the facts.

          It seems that many want to castigate people that are involved in finding the details of the Yarnell problem. To go ahead with this as an accident, or God thing is truly a way to insure that the same things will continue to condemn innocent lives to be destroyed. Our losses must be turned to improve a system that is killing these young people. The only way this will come about is by truth, not redactions, not cover ups to assure reputations, not false statements.

          True, most of have erred in life to one degree or another. I liked Marsh immediately–I saw a man of vision–a kind person, not an animal who would destroy those under his supervision. I did not meet Steed, but I am certain his intentions as Marsh were good. Still the facts show that their men died due to their commands–commands that were totally risky and unreasonable. Every wild land fire fighter I have met and some with exemplary credentials have told me that to go down into that dangerous bowl with an unpredictable wild fire near by was unconceivable. Myself as a civilian knew that without a doubt standing on that very place they went down, yet these men did go down. Joy did not know that danger and despite what she says, if we had gone her route–similar or worse than the GMHS route, we would not be here to consider this thing. I doubt her photos would have survived either looking at that pvc pipe that WTKTT asked about.

          It certainly is a heart breaker. I have of record had six wives–all in a row–I am not a Mormon of the old order or even the new ladder or new day saints. So I have six heart stints now–one for each broken heart–they were all good wives. .But the heart stint I do not have is for my son and for those 19 young souls that we saw that very day sacrificed by the fire gods of the day and the fire gods who did fail to take charge of a lightening strike while it was in the bud

          Can we point fingers–Joy says three are pointing back when we do. God knows none of us are perfect–except maybe the fire gods think they are. Taking awards after this fire–what can anyone justify that with?

          Still to deny that this was a tragedy due to faulty management and screwed up methods of fighting wild fires is the epitome of ignorance or else an attempt to maintain an air of undue respectability. Had I been a manager anywhere on this incident concerning the GMHS crew and their demise, I certainly would be hanging my head–never in any capacity accepting an award when 19 young men were killed and I was part of the watch and it is damn sure that most of the men that oversee wild fires are certain to agree.

          From my view I see too many fearful ones to come forward–I see too many afraid of the authorities that have proven they are not authorities. What a shame–too many lives of upcoming wild land fire fighters are at stake.

          Have I stung the egos of some of you think you are great assholes? I hope I have but doubt it. Too many of you are convinced of your own bullshit that you now have begun to smell. .

        • Marti Reed says

          FWIW I’ve been playing with her post-noon time stamps downstream in the roots. I think the camera was 22 minutes off, baked in, and then at noon it jumped back to the previous midnite.

          So I’m adding 12 hours and a half to her post-noon photos to get closer to an accurate timestamp. I’m not exact on this yet.

          So this would mean this photo was taken around 6:30 PM

          • Marti Reed says

            This is based on the pano she posted downstream that, according to her Google post, is time stamped at 1:55 AM while her cellphone said it was 2:33 PM.

          • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

            Reply to Marti Reed post on May 30, 2016 at 3:09 pm

            >> Marti Reed said…
            >>
            >> FWIW I’ve been playing with her post-noon time
            >> stamps downstream in the roots. I think the camera
            >> was 22 minutes off, baked in, and then at noon it
            >> jumped back to the previous midnite.
            >>
            >> So I’m adding 12 hours and a half to her post-noon
            >> photos to get closer to an accurate timestamp. I’m
            >> not exact on this yet.
            >>
            >> So this would mean this photo was taken around 6:30 PM

            I still believe your original work proving the 10:30 AM time for the Blue Ridge Crew Carrier ‘arriving’ out there in the Sesame Clearing area takes care of the ‘morning’ time stamps. We can still compare that one photo of the BR Crew Carrier “kicking up dust” as it was arriving out there with Blue Ridge’s own smartphone-based known-timestamp photos taken moments before as they proceeded up into the Sesame Clearing from where the pavement of Lakewood/Manzanita ends.

            But yea… as for what happened at NOON… and the camera ‘flipped’… that’s still a bit of a mystery.

            • Marti Reed says

              Yeah. I don’t think we need to get anal about this.

              But I think know that the post-noon photos are timestamped “about” 12 and a half hours early helps for a bunch of her afternoon photos.

        • Marti Reed says

          Well, for lack of a better response to your question, there’s that power line and that turquoise wall.

            • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

              I’ve given up on Just.Having.To.Shake.My.Head ’round here.
              Too much, too often.
              And I was developing a persistent crick in my neck.

              So no actual ‘pain’, really. Just….. ( heavy sigh ).

              • Marti Reed says

                I’ve been addictively following the Democratic Primary on Daily Kos. I’ve learned a ton, but it’s another crazy zone.

                And I’ve learned the hard way (here) about confirmation bias. Heh.

          • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

            Reply to Marti Reed post on May 30, 2016 at 3:20 pm

            >> Marti said…
            >>
            >> Well, for lack of a better response to your question,
            >> there’s that power line and that turquoise wall.

            Yep. I see them.

            And all the dark-black ‘tar strikes/whirls’ on the pavement… and the driveway in the lower left, and the bits of houses at the base of the pole… yada… yada…

            But I was hoping for at least a better starting point before driving around in Google Street View.

            Hope springs eternal… ( you know the rest ).

              • Joy A. Collura says

                plus I had planned to just say Happy and Crest asap but I wanted to PROVE it with current photo-

                It was still less than 24 hours and I am in a lot of pain today and frustrated I spent most the day on a map to have the map freeze up—

                so for the record I answer much quicker than any SAIT member or Forestry or even Donut or loved ones or people who knew the men or worked with them or anyone on that fire—
                for the record-
                just saying

                • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

                  Again… Thank you, Joy.

                  So you were standing right here when you took that photo, and facing WEST…

                  34.219784, -112.745966

                  At a point in the distance ( and behind the smoke ) directly up from the rear end of that car in the center of the photo, was the deployment site.

                    • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

                      Yes. Joy was standing exactly here…

                      34.219784, -112.745966

                      Conrner of Crest Way and Happy Way,
                      Yarnell, EAST side of Hwy 89 and up the hill a ways.

                      The ‘view’ in the center of the photo and behind the smoke is straight out into the box canyon

    • Joy A. Collura says

      I sent you photos-

      it is Happy and Crest here in town-

      near where Penny did live-
      she moved after the fire to Louisiana but since then has returned and married and lives back in town and I only seen her one time on taco Tuesday-
      she did not seem her glowing cheerful self-
      drained and quiet-
      I have not reconfirmed the times yet but we can tell you we were eating at diner 5-5:30pm and we know that due to waitress confirmation as we discussed one day Russ Reason and his media footage- and after that we went to room #15 and I was throwing up and in the toilet sick…while Sonny was being addressed first by new manager and when we did not leave on her request the old manager came and stayed there and forced us out immediately even though I was vomiting up what I just ate and was in the bathroom and reason how much remained behind because of her irrational temperament and so sickening to watch her in this panicky demanding way when I just saw that silly behavior as we drove away out of Glen Ilah and I am thinking these people are nuts- it ain’t coming NEAR Yarnell- I just came off the Weavers and it was gonna do mayhem on Peeples Valley not here and I am sick and just got done doing one hell of a long day hike…I was in no mood for any female getting all crazy panicky so I walked to car and told Sonny we will just go see it from Penny’s place and https://plus.google.com/photos/112068160404980104272/albums/5911726150683632913/5911737535568477762?authkey=CMSBuJL2pZXeOg&pid=5911737535568477762&oid=112068160404980104272 then come back later- We get to Penny’s and she is nervous and panicky because her family was not allowed up the hill to get her and all her pets and no one could drive that many pets to Congress so we said we could take her with my mind set after seeing that fire I would climb up as TIRED and SICK I was to get more photos from the tower mountain and that was my plan that day because what I saw at her home was the gates of hell opening up and I finally was interested in taking photos and I wanted to stop and get my sd card but the manager was right there in the front of #15 kicking others out- I sunk thinking I wanted to grab some gear and stuff in case of fire getting that close and burning it and so I quickly thought to ask Sonny and he said we could come up later and I said no one is allowed up and he said we would come up back way—I never imagined someone would steal my stuff and that still hurts more than the thought of it burning because there is an sd card taken from me that did have a lot of fire pics that showed the trails in the bowl to the old grader road and the head on shots of the GMHS— anyways there you have it… HAPPY AND CREST!

      • Joy A. Collura says

        cannot narrow a estimated time better than Sonny but can say it took a long time to drive down because of the dark clouds and flying ember/ashes and others’ slow driving and she got a call on the Weavers and it is an on and off dead zone and I can tell you I asked her long ago—but she never did confirm to us a time-

      • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

        Reply to Joy A. Collura post on May 30, 2016 at 3:57 pm

        >> Joy A. Collura said…
        >>
        >> I sent you photos-
        >>
        >> it is Happy and Crest here in town-

        Thank you, Joy.

        So you were standing right here when you took that photo,
        and facing WEST…

        34.219784, -112.745966

        At a point in the distance ( and behind the smoke ) directly up from the rear end of that car in the center of the photo, was the deployment site.

  32. Joy A. Collura