Chapter I, Chapter II, Chapter II supplement, Chapter III, Chapter IV, Chapter V, Chapter VI, Chapter VII, Chapter VIII , Chapter IX, Chapter X, Chapter XI, Chapter XII , Chapter XIII, Chapter XIV, Chapter XV, Chapter XVI, Chapter XVII and Chapter XVIII.
© Copyright 2016 John Dougherty, All rights Reserved. Written For: Investigative MEDIA
**
** LET THERE BE CHAINS
>> On June 23, 2016 at 6:24 am, Joy A. Collura said…
>>
>> Wwtktr…your questions can be answered at safety matters Facebook page video…
>> On June 23, 2016 at 8:29 am, Muzzy said…
>>
>> The video shows a presentation detailing the items included in
>> the 200k + cost overrun. Includes observation deck roof, path to deployment
>> site, signage, including biographies of HSs, benches, etc.
Copy that. Yes… I ultimately caught that ( in that video ). Thank you ( both ).
That FOX10 full-video link DOES show the guy ( Project manager ‘Skip’ ) doing his ‘presentation’ to that lightly-attended and short-notice PUBLIC meeting.of the ‘Yarnell Hill Memorial Board’…
https://www.facebook.com/FOX10Phoenix/videos/1056141377767742/
Presenter’s name was ‘Skip’ ( Walter ‘Skip’ Varney ), of Arizona State Parks… and he was the ‘Project Manager’ for Arizona State Parks and the Yarnell Hill Memorial Site Board.
There is still no ‘detail’ breakdown supplied about what all these ‘Future Development’ items actually cost. It’s all just ‘lumped together’ on that PowerPoint screen into the $229,000 total.
Just for future reference… here is exactly what that ‘PowerPoint’ slide says…
———————————————————————————————
Future Development
– Trail to Deployment Site
Crew + trail building equipment to create
final 3/4 mile trail segment – 35-60 days.
American Conservation Experience
– Biography Plaques ( 19 )
Engraved 2′ x 2′ plaques ??
Installed into existing or provided rock.
Set in Stone, AZ – De
– Observation Deck
Steel structure, with perforated metal roof,
surface material.
Transport material to site / install
Arizona Correction Industries ( ACI )
– Master Road Sign ( Granite Mountain Hotshots Memorial State Park )
4′ by 8′ concrete, metal & stone sign on base.
Arizona Correction Industries ( ACI )
– Benches ( 12 )
Metal laser cut benches.
Transport / install at site.
Arizona Correction Industries ( ACI )
– Interpretive Signs ( 6 )
– Observation Deck Signs ( 2 )
– Trailhead Signs ( 2 )
– Deployment Site Sign ( 1 )
Fabrication / transport to site / install included.
Arizona Correctional Industries ( AC I )
Total…………………… $229,000
———————————————————————————————-
>> Muzzy also said…
>>
>> Interesting that the markers are all shown in the diagram
>> as crosses, given that Eric Marsh was supposedly
>> Buddhist. I couldn’t tell from the photos if it is a cross
>> or some other symbol.
Yes… the actual spot where each firefighter died is marked with a metal ‘cross’, painted purple, regardless of actual religious affiliation ( or lack thereof ).
These were already in place before the legal settlement-mandated ‘Family Staff Ride’ took place back in the first week of April, 2016.
And YES… that one ‘sample biographical information plaque’ shown in the ‘presentation’ ALSO has a ‘christian cross’ engraved on the background.
The slide in the presentation at the meeting shows the sample plaque for deceased Granite Mountain Hotshot Clayton Whitted. It has an ‘engraved’ photo of him and the writing says…
Clayton Thomas Whitted
Squad Leader, ??, FIRB, FALC, EMT
June 27, 1985 – June 30, 2013
“I Thank My God Every Time I Remember You”.
In the lower left corner is an ‘etched’ version of the Granite Mountain logo.
In the upper right ( background ) is an ‘etched’ version of a christian cross.
Clayton Whitted is just one ( of several… Parker, Deford, etc. ) of the Granite Mountain Hotshots who was also an official christian ‘youth minister’ ( at the ‘Heights’ Church, in Prescott ).
Whitted saw ‘Hotshoting’ as an actual ‘ministry’ and way to ‘bring Christ to those firefighters’.
From Whitted’s obituary published at Outside Online…
—————————————————————————–
Clayton Whitted, 28
Squad boss Clayton Whitted, a Prescott native, was a youth minister who saw firefighting as his way of serving God. He married his wife, Kristi, in February, 2011.
—————————————————————————–
From Whitted’s obituary published at AZCENTRAL…
—————————————————————————–
Bob Hoyt, a pastor at The Heights Church, said Whitted was above all a servant, to God and his fellow men Hoyt said few men in their early 20s would have quit a job to take care of their ailing mother, but that’s is what Whitted did seven years ago when his mother was diagnosed with terminal cancer. Whitted left the Prescott Hotshots and took a job at The Heights as a youth minister in order to be close to home all year. After his mom passed away, Hoyt said, Whitted joined Granite Mountain, so he could MINISTER to the men while continuing to fight wildfires.
——————————————————————————
From Whitted’s obituary published in the ‘New york Times’…
——————————————————————————
Clayton Whitted felt a SPIRITUAL CALLING to fight fires.
He grew up in Prescott, Ariz., and joined the Prescott Hotshots right out of high school.
Around 2007, he left the Hotshots for about a year and went to work as a pastor at Heights Church, hoping to spend more time with his family in Prescott while his mother was ailing.
In 2008, he decided to return to firefighting, this time with the Granite Mountain Hotshots. Bob Hoyt, a fellow pastor at Heights Church, said Mr. Whitted told him: “God just wants me to be a firefighter. I feel like I can be Christ to those firemen.”
——————————————————————————
From the Clayton Whitted WRONGFUKL DEATH CLAIM letter submitted
by Prescott attorney Patrick McGroder…
——————————————————————————-
Clayton Whitted felt a strong pulling to teach others about God, but also wanted to serve the community. After his mother passed, Clayton joined Granite Mountain so that he could MINISTER to men WHILE fighting wildfires.
——————————————————————————-
From…
http://www.azcentral.com/news/arizona/articles/20130702yarnell-fire-clayton-whitted-obit.html
——————————————————————————-
According to Bob Hoyt, PASTOR of the Prescott ‘Heights’ Church… Clayton Whitted ministered full time to youth, overseeing Bible study groups at the church, Hoyt said. Clayton took a full time position with the Heights Church youth and became the junior high pastor. This was a wonderful fit for Clayton and he was able to use his gifts of ministry as he mentored HUNDREDS of young teens.
After his mom passed away, Hoyt said, Whitted joined Granite Mountain, so he could MINISTER to the men WHILE continuing to fight wildfires.
“He told me firefighting allowed him the perfect mix,” Hoyt said. “He could help the community AND minister to good men happy to listen. He was very excited.”
Though Clayton had re-entered the world of firefighting he continued to lead Bible studies and prayer groups.
He never failed to put God first.
Clayton’s work with the Granite Mountain Hotshots expanded, as did his responsibility when he became a SQUAD LEADER.
Clayton’s plans, though wonderful in and of themselves, tied directly into God’s plan and that is something Clayton knew well. Clayton’s desire was that EVERYONE he came into CONTACT WITH might experience the same love he knew, the love of God, through his Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.
—————————————————————————-
I think you get the picture ( regarding Whitted ).
Hotshoting wasn’t just a ‘job’… he treated it as some kind of ‘christian ministry’ ( as did Parker, Deford, etc. ).
So yea… it makes perfect sense that Whitted would have a ‘christian cross’ permanently engraved on his Arizona Public State Park ‘biographical plaque’…
But… it remains to be seen if this ‘christian cross’ engraved in the background will be a standard inclusion on ALL of these public state park ‘plaques’ for ALL of the Granite Mountain hotshots, or for just the ones whose families might have REQUESTED it.
Apparently, ALL 19 of these ‘plaques’ are going to be ‘installed’ NOT at the deployment site itself… but somewhere along the 2.85 mile hiking trail… to ( quote ) “existing rock or provided rock”.
>> Muzzy also said…
>>
>> As to the ugliness, it seems that the basic dishonesty surrounding the 19
>> has found expression in this design. Sentimentality replaces spirituality,
>> clutter replaces clarity, ego replaces truth. Buddhist my ass.
I agree.
And the ‘chains’ between the ‘lobster traps’ ( gabions ) seem to be a fitting ‘symbolic’ touch as well, considering how the ‘truth’ has always been ( and CONTINUES to be ) one of the ‘victims’ in this tragedy.
The ‘Yarnell Hill Memorial Site Board’ has FINALLY stopped ignoring Arizona LAW and they have ( only recently ) FINALLY published the ‘minutes’ from their last meeting held way back on October 23 of the year 2015.
We can now see how the original design was forced ( by Amanda Marsh and Deborah Pfingston supposedly ‘representing’ ALL the Family members ) backwards from an ‘open’ design… to the one we see now… complete with CHAINS preventing access to the actual deployment site at this Arizona State PUBLIC park.
Reply to Robert the Second (RTS) post on March 20, 2016 at 7:08 pm
>> RTS said…
>>
>> WTKTT,
>> You won’t get Paul Harvey, ‘the rest of the story’ but you will get more of the story.
Thank you.
>> RTS said…
>>
>> The anonymous person met with the AZ Wildfire Academy IC and Deputy IC
>> to ask some questions and briefly discuss the matter after confirming they
>> were aware of the issue.
>>
>> He asked them (1) what he allegedly said and did and where and (2) what was
>> the YH Fire and GMHS briefing that they gave to everyone else at the AZ Wildfire
>> Academy that he did not receive.
>>
>> The first question was verified as posted here. And yes, Naumetz was the one
>> that got it rolling by going to Amanda Marsh.
So… just to be clear… the thing that Naumetz was ‘reporting’ to this person selling T-Shirts in the lobby was that someone had, in fact, mentioned GM and the Yarnell Fire in an actual CLASS… or was Naumetz just talking about some ‘debate’ he might have overheard two other people having as a PRIVATE conversation at the banquet dinner?
In other words… was everyone getting bent out of shape just because of some ‘private’ conversation between two individuals at a banquet dinner… or because of something that was actually presented ( at least once? ) during one of the CLASSES…
…or was it BOTH things that were getting people ( or actually just ONE T-Shirt selling person? ) all ‘worked up’?
>> RTS also said…
>>
>> The second answer was very solid and from the heart. The IC accepted total
>> ownership in NOT providing anyone at the Academy with a YH Fire and GMHS
>> briefing. He acknowledged the still-high emotions and the sensitivity of the issue(s).
>>
>> He thanked the anonymous person for bringing the issue up and the IC promised
>> to address the YH Fire and GMHS briefing in future AZ Wildfire Academies.
>> He also said he would talk to the AZ Wildfire Academy Coordinator about it.
>> The issue was resolved after their discussions with a good, satisfactory outcome.
Okay… here ( to me ) is the ‘scary’ part.
What you are saying is that people running the Academy acknowledged that there had been NO BRIEFING given to ANYONE at THIS year’s Academy about GM and the Yarnell Hill fire being ‘off limits’ for discussion at the Academy…
…but then these same people have now decided there, By God, WILL be ‘such a briefing’ at the NEXT Academy?
That’s the ‘scary’ part.
That there now ( apparently ) WILL be directives given ( in the future ) to instructors and/or guest speakers at this accredited Wildland Firefighting Teaching Academy to NOT discuss ( at all ) the greatest blunder in the history of Wildland Firefighting and how it might be prevented from happening AGAIN.
Astounding.
That’s the way I read it. I read it that AMANDA BENO MARSH was the running the AZ Wildfire Academy, which is astonishing except that it is not really, not if you have been paying attention the past three years.
Prescott and the surrounding area are filled with guilt ridden wildland firefighting overhead, civic leaders and politicians. All of these people know they contributed to the deaths of the crew by their own actions or lack thereof in the time leading up to those deaths and during the event itself.
This group has many people as members but certainly Todd Abel and Karen Fann are two of its leading participants of who practice self-flagellation on a regular basis. Todd Able because of what he did on the fire that helped kill the crew and Karen Fann because she was a leading state legislature that historically and habitually underfunds the Arizona State Forestry so low they have to fight wildfires the way they fought them before the Yarnell Hill Fire and ever since the Yarnell Hill Fire because nothing has changed. Almost everyone in Prescott because they know their penny pinching leaders set the crew up for failure…catastrophic failure.
Fighting wildfires, especially fighting wildfires as a hotshot is not for amateurs or habitual fuck ups, even if they have a long track record of good outcomes for prior bad decisions. That kind of thing has a tendency to catch up with people…eventually.
So…anyway, now that I am back from my Jeeping and ATVing tour in and around the center of the Jeeping universe Moab, Utah, I am going to do what I promised to do a long time ago just as soon as I get my rigs unloaded. I am going to publish the transcript from the hearing that Amanda Marsh cooked up just to punish Joy for being a sweet person who does nothing except try to help people in her own way.
Unfortunately for Joy, her own way really pissed off Mrs. Beno Marsh and Mrs. Pfingston while poor ole’ Mr. Pfingston go reamed out by his wife for being in cahoots with someone who Christian Fundamentalists consider to be a bad person because she thinks a little differently than they do.
There is no smoking gun in this transcript but you can gain some interesting insight into Amanda Beno Marshes mindset as you listen to her spew her venom as she tries to manipulate poor Judge Markam with her sob story of how she is the “widow of a national tragedy” and how everyone wanted a piece of the “Golden Boy”, her now departed husband. Although I did notice that she was able to replace him and pretty quickly in her life, unlike my mother did after her personal tragedy. Is that catty on my part and a cheap shot? Too bad, I can’t count Amanda Beno Marsh’s cheap shots, because she takes most of them from the shadows and while hiding behind others.
Anyway…Judge Markham, who I now have a tremendous amount a respect for unlike Mrs. Beno Marsh’s bitches (non-gender specific) Todd Able and Karsn Fann et al. Judge Markham really shoots her down and tells her in no uncertain terms that people ARE going to talk about what happened on the Yarnell Hill Fire for a very long time and there is nothing she or anyone else can do about it, which he is mostly right about, except in Arizonaistan. The rules are different there.
If you also read and listen to what Judge Markham says very carefully…he actually tells Mrs. Beno Marsh that the Golden Boy killed his crew. So…if Judge Markham is aware of this truth, that tells me almost everyone else in and around Prescott is as well. They just keep playing out their own little Kabuki Theater of the absurd for their own selfish purposes even though if they told the truth about the fire and what happened to the crew it might save the lives of some wildland firefighters in the future. How very sad these people are…and they are criminals as well.
Welcome back even though you were on while gone.
Your summery is point on.
Do I not remember that Eric Marsh created the Arizona wildfire Academy?
seems like that was posted some where——
I am hearing that every place outside Prescott is in fact having full blown discussions on Granit Mountain and the Yarnell Hill Fire. That’s all FS and BLM Crews and HS crews during their own annual refresher courses.
The State of Arizona seems to be in the Twilight Zone.
There can never be any lessons learned if you do not open your minds and challenge the reason for the Fatalities as we have here.
And yet they train and discuss all the other Fatality Fires in every training session
that covers Safety, Fire spread, weather and fuels.
It is to dam late to cover up what every body already knows live with it.
Thank you Bob. And yes, Marsh started that academy. FYI, we have moved over to here.
http://www.investigativemedia.com/please-begin-yarnell-hill-fire-chapter-xx-here/#comments
Reply to Charlie ( Sonny ) post on March 22, 2016 at 6:08 pm
>> Charlie ( Sonny ) said…
>>
>> WTKTT gave us 436 ft. per hour to cut line in manzanita.
Just to be clear…
1. That ‘number’ for what is supposed to be ‘expected’ line-work production for a Type 1 Hotshot Crew in that fuel type was not coming from ‘me’. It comes directly from the official “NWCG Wildland Fire Incident Management Field Guide, PMS-210”. The same ‘guide’ referenced by Wildland Fire Associates in their ADOSH report regarding this terrible ( and avoidable ) workplace tragedy.
2. That official NWCG ‘line production rates’ guide does NOT actually have a specific ‘fuel type’ of ‘manzanita’ and/or ‘scrub oak’. That “436 ft. per hour” expected production rate was for the ‘fuel type’ they simply label as ‘Chaparral’. But that ‘fuel type’ is already the SLOWEST line-production rate in the entire NWCG table.
Once again ( just for good measure )…
** EXPECTED LINE BUILDING RATES…
The NWCG Wildland Fire Incident Management Field Guide, PMS-210…
http://www.nwcg.gov/sites/default/files/products/pms210.pdf
From PDF page 121 of the
NWCG Wildland Fire Incident Management Field Guide…
——————————————————————————–
PRODUCTION TABLES
Sustained Line Production Rates of 20-Person Crews in Feet per Hour.
Number outside parentheses represents the expected rate of production.
Numbers in parentheses are possible low/high ranges for line production.
Fire Behavior Fuel Model, Type I Direct
Chaparral 436 ( 330-528 ) feet per hour.
——————————————————————————–
NOTE: Of all the listed ‘Fuel Models’ in the NWCG production
rate table, the ‘Chaparral Fuel Model’ already has the SLOWEST
expected rate of hourly line production.
——————————————————————————–
436 feet ( per hour ) equals 145.33 yards ( per hour ).
6 hours times 436 feet per hour = 2,616 feet ( 872.00 yards ).
5 hours times 436 feet per hour = 2,180 feet ( 726.66 yards ).
4 hours times 436 feet per hour = 1,744 feet ( 581.00 yards ).
3 hours times 436 feet per hour = 1,308 feet ( 436.00 yards ).
2 hours times 436 feet per hour = 872 feet ( 290.66 yards ).
1.75 hours times 436 feet per hour = 763 feet ( 254.33 yards ).
1.50 hours times 436 feet per hour = 654 feet ( 218 yards ).
1 hour times 436 feet per hour = 436 feet ( 145.33 yards ).
The entire Granite Mountain Crew was ‘in place’ at the anchor area from approximately 9:30 AM until their ‘tools up’ moment circa 3:30 PM. That is a total time of 6 (SIX) hours ‘working’ at that location ( minus an uknown period of time for ‘lunch’ ).
But the amount of ‘completed handline’ as reported by even the SAIT investigators, after extensive examination of the area, was only in the 145 to 250 yard range.
NOTE: According to hiker Sonny (Tex) Gilligan… it was actually only 145 yards, maximum.
At the ‘expected rate’ for line building in that fuel type, that represents only 1 to 1.75 hours of actual (productive) work on the part of ‘Granite Mountain’ on June 30, 2013.
>> Charlie ( Sonny ) also said…
>>
>> I would guess that approximates the type of brush that was encountered in the
>> death basin above Helm’s. View Joy’s photos of brush we encountered that
>> day right about where the GMHS deployed. That translates to a bit over 145 yards.
>> That is almost exactly what you will measure from the two track to where they
>> ended their line that morning of June 30, 2013.
If it really was only a ‘maximum’ of about 145 yards of ‘line’ that was ever ‘built’ by Granite Mountain for the entire 6 ( SIX ) hours they were working in that location up there… then something was SERIOUSLY ‘wrong’ with their ability to ‘do productive work’ that day when they would lose their lives.
When Blue Ridge Assistant Superintendent Trueheart Brown arrived at that location at exactly 11:55 AM ( along with BR Supt. Brian Frisby ) for that ‘face-to-face’ meeting with Marsh and Steed… Brown says he observed that they only had 100 yards of line built at that time. Brown used the word ‘secured line’, meaning ‘finished line’ with nothing else needing to be done.
That means that in the next 3 and 1/2 hours ( THREE and ONE HALF hours ), that group of 19 (supposedly) elite Type 1 Hotshots was only able to ‘build’ another lousy 45 yards of ‘line’ up there.
Jesse Steed gave the ‘tools up’ order right around 3:30 PM, and just after the weather report from Byron Kimball went out over the radio regarding the approaching “30-40 miles per hour outflow winds” and the expected “fireline direction REVERSAL”.
So minus whatever time they might have taken for lunch following that ‘face-to-face’ meeting between Frisby / Brown / Marsh / Steed… that means they continued ‘working’ on that assignment UNTIL 3:30 PM… but were only able to accomplish 45 yards of line for an entire afternoon’s work by 19 men.
That literally qualifies as just sort of ‘piddling around’ and/or ‘sandbagging it’ for 3 and 1/2 hours.
>> Charlie ( Sonny ) also said…
>>
>> I do believe one person can navigate much faster than 18 and we proved that with Joy and I.
One of the things that Holly Neill was ‘excited about’ when she ‘thought’ she had discovered proof that Eric Marsh had made it all the way to the Boulder Springs Ranch was that, to her, it ALSO represented ‘proof’ that Eric Marsh had definitely ‘scouted’ and ‘timed’ that route… and that people should stop saying there was never any ‘scouting’ of the ‘escape route’ done.
Well… that was just part of Ms. Neill’s continuing agenda to try and find evidence that would ‘exonerate’ Marsh and Steed and Granite Mountain from any accusations of not doing the things they were SUPPOSED to do.
What Ms. Neill has always failed to realize is that even the ‘evidence’ that she was so excited about ‘finding’ that she contacted ADOSH directly to try and get them to ‘ammend’ their findings was, itself, “another can of worms”.
NOTE: Ms. Neill communicated extensively with ADOSH about this… and they DID ‘examine’ all of the ‘new evidence’ she was presenting to them… but they politely informed her they would NOT be ‘amending’ anything. Their findings of workplace negligence and imposition of maximum penalties was going to ‘stand pat’.
After repeatedly LYING ( by ommission ) to every official investigator… Brendan McDonough finally admitted to at least knowing that Eric Marsh was, in fact, out AHEAD of Jesse Steed and the crew that day… supposedly ‘scouting’ the route he would eventually ORDER them to take out of the ‘safe black’ ( and to their deaths ).
But as for the TIMING… there is still no evidence that Eric Marsh ever bothered to TIME anything.
Wherever Eric Marsh was out AHEAD of Steed and the Crew when he gave Steed that ORDER to ‘bring those men down here’… he still might have been totally misunderstanding that whatever ‘feel’ HE had for how long it would take was totally based on just HIS own ‘descent’ and how long it took HIM to get to wherever he was prior to the deployment.
Marsh might have totally ‘blown it’ on the TIMING by not realizing that whatever time he was able to make through that explosive, fuel-filled obstable course was going to bear no resemblance to how long it would take 19 other men ( with saws and packs ) to navigate the same ‘obstacle course’ while trying to all remain in SINGLE FILE.
I understand that Holly Neill WAS ‘excited’ when she was one of the first people to be able to ‘listen’ to some of those Panebaker Air Study videos… and that she thought she was hearing ‘new evidence’ that Eric Marsh DID ‘scout the escape route’ and that people should stop saying he didn’t…
…but I’m not sure, even now, after McDonough CONFIRMING that Eric Marsh WAS ‘out ahead’ of them… that Ms. Neill realizes that has just RAISED far more ‘disturbing’ questions than it has answered.
And here’s just ONE of those ‘disturbing questions’…
If Eric Marsh himself really was out ‘ahead’ of those poor men… and in any kind of ‘position’ to act as their ‘forward lookout’ and WARN them of ANY pending danger… then why are they all DEAD?
And just ONE more of the ‘disturbing questions’…
Eric Marsh is heard, himself, saying over the radio ( at exactly 4:13 PM ) that Granite Mountain was (quote) “makin’ their way out the escape route from this MORNING”.
So that means Marsh was trying to say that they KNEW ( since that morning ) that this ‘risky route’ they were now traveling was (supposedly) their ‘designated escape route’.
But it was never ‘scouted’ prior to these now-critical moments… even though they had ALL DAY to do that.
The TIME that was WASTED by Eric Marsh going out ahead of the Steed and the Crew ( by himself ) to (supposedly) “scout the escape route” at that LATE hour in the day… while Steed and the Crew had to sit back at the anchor point just waiting to hear from him…
…was the time they needed to STAY ALIVE that day.
If Steed and the Crew had even only ‘set out’ from the safe black shortly after the ‘tools up’ moment… and had only just covered the absolute CLEAR part of that two-track heading south from the anchor point ( instead of just sitting around waiting to hear the results of Marsh’s ‘scouting mission’ )… they would all be alive today.
The TIME they wasted waiting for the RESULTS of that “too late in the day” scouting mission by Marsh is the ‘missing TIME’ that actually KILLED them all.
Ok thanks WTKTT. There might indeed been sufficient time to escape if they had headed down earlier. The delay caught them but there was another factor that could have cut them off. By my estimation from when we left we should have been at least an hour or more ahead in case in my mind the fire reversed direction. Yet when we got to Foothills Lane where my car was parked there was only ten minutes or so that we had edge on it. We were on a well maintained gravel road and for about a mile so no hindrance except the heat, yet that fire was already licking at the NW edge of Glen Isla with people evacuating and smoke coming our way. I said no way that fire could be that close and of course the streets slowed its advance while embers flying through the air were picking and choosing patches of growth between streets and igniting houses. I have since come to conclude that the back burn we saw on video along Shrine road was a factor of that fire getting to the Helms so quickly when winds reversed. But as Bob says without the actual footage it is no evidence even though both Joy and I saw it and even went to the area for a visit to make sure it was the rock wall that we were seeing that identified the video. There was so much confusion as related to us by a deputy that anything could happen.
I was just watching the evacuation from Viet Nam when Saigon was being taken by the North Vietnamese. The ambassador was so disconnected that he did not want to believe that things were out of hand. Out of four plans to evacuate they had to go to the last and poorest plan of using copters for evacuation. The man who could have saved thousands more lives failed despite all good evidence from generals and others that the Viet Cong were closing in on Saigon. Poor planning on that one as was the Yarnell Fire. Odd I talk about this and when Joy wrote up a name of Charlie for me I told her that was a word for the Viet Cong–but many years back. I had a dog named Charlie and Charlie Brown e-mail she made up went well with me anyway.
So much is still unsaid on the Yarnell Fire. We miss too much from BR people being quiet like Donut. But there were also others on this fire that have kept clammed up. It seems they do not realize the importance of their testimony toward saving future lives, huge sums of tax payer money, and getting the story straight so that all affected by this tragedy have what they deserve–the straight truth.
I have wondered why the President himself did not step in and order an FBI check on the deaths of 19 men. It would only be the right thing to do to have more investigators that have no agenda to come in and see why so much evidence has not been investigated. It is said to me that the reason is this fire started on State Lands, yet it also burned 3% federal land and the fact that these men more than once worked out of state would seem to over ride any concern for unbiased investigators.
Gary is going to answer that one–I hope.
FWIW… consider this…
All FIVE of the firefighters who would be the first ones to ‘arrive’ at the deployment site and confirm the ‘fatalities’… were FEDERAL EMPLOYEES.
Jason Clawson – USFS employee – Prescott National Forest
Aaron Hulburd – USFS employee – Prescott National Forest.
KC ‘Bucky’ Yowell – USFS employee – Prescott National Forest
Brian Frisby – USFS employee – Blue Ridge Hotshots
Trueheart Brown – USFS employee – Blue Ridge Hotshots
FEDERAL employee Jason Clawson would then be the first one to report over the radio that he was standing there looking at 19 fatalities.
FEDERAL employee Aaron Hulburd would eventually be discovered to have shot 21 ( TWENTY ONE ) separate videos that day, including the one that captured the final radio traffic from GM.
FEDERAL employee KC ‘Bucky’ Yowell was the one who was the ‘Final Evaluator’ and ‘final signer’ of Jesse Steeds actual STCR ‘taskbook’.
FEDERAL employee ‘Aaron Hulburd’ was the one who was the ‘Final Evaluator’ and the ‘final signer’ of Eric Marsh’s actual DIVS ‘taskbook’.
That’s a whole lot of ‘FEDERAL’ going on.
Sonny said:
” I said no way that fire could be that close and of course the streets slowed its advance while embers flying through the air were picking and choosing patches of growth between streets and igniting houses. I have since come to conclude that the back burn we saw on video along Shrine road was a factor of that fire getting to the Helms so quickly when winds reversed.”
I want to know if it is possible that GM calculated that they had time to make it to the Helm’s ranch -even though it was a high risk choice to travel through the manzainita- but became trapped by the firing operation that Sonny has mentioned numerous times. Is it POSSIBLE?
Woodsman
Sonny even though Yarnell Fire burned Federal land 3% or what ever it was a State Fire. based on start and under co-op agreements.
The State took over the initial responsibility.
If the Fire had burned into Federal land then it could have gone a couple of ways. The Federal land manager could have taken the fire over or they could have separated it into two separate teams managing both segments
under a Interagency agreement.
This fire was no large enough for that and the State had the predominate responsibility. Thus it was a State Fire.
On the question of all the Federal employees/overhead on the fire that is very common. When teams are called in they have several different make ups because of the National Interagency Fire Center that puts together teams Nation wide. A mixture of Federal, State, county Overhead under the National Interagency Management system NIMS.
Also The Fire was also under Co-op assistance (closes forces)
that would have included the Prescott NF and the Local BLM along with locale City and County Fire resources the State had available to them.
You had two separate teams called in coming and going with all kinds of different make ups.
This was a State Fire and Granit Mountain was a Contract crew not a Federal crew They were a certified Type 1 crew out of a City Fire department. while they were certified by the NIFC that did not make them a Federal crew. There are many Type2 crews under the same status CONTRACT CREWS.
The only way the Federal Government would have been in the Investigation is if this had been a Federal crew or Federal employees involved in the Fatalities. on a State Fire.
Or theses same types of crews (Contract) would have been on a Federal Fire then they would have been working for the Government as contract hires. Then the Government would have been responsible.
It is all worked out in the National Co-op Agreements.
Woodsman
From the time laps info on Fire spread it dose not look like any main head of fire came from the Shrine area but from the Main fire front burning towards the south. when that wind hit it went into two or three seperiate heads when it jumped the Tractor push that ran up to the old grader. One head took the area above the old grader where there was only a 4 track to the burn. the other took off from a Spot or a jump over the Cat push the third I believe was another spot fire lower on the flat but not from the Shrine area.
The shrine area was within the housing area and if there was any firing out it was probably not of much use to stop any thing as there was to much spotting going on thru the structure area. The winds at this point were 20 to 40 MPH from the NNW.
I copy. Thanks Bob.
Woodsman
Reply to Bob Powers post on
March 23, 2016 at 8:34 am
>> Bob Powers said…
>>
>> The only way the Federal Government would have
>> been in the Investigation is if this had been a Federal
>> crew or Federal employees involved in the Fatalities.
The “Federal Government” was VERY MUCH ‘in the investigation’.
Mike Dudley was a USFS high-mucky-muck… and he was calling the shots.
The actual ‘narrative’ was mostly coming from John Phipps, head of the FEDERAL USFS Rocky Mountain Research Center. He and his little sidekick John Pupulidy were ‘feeding’ the narrative to Mike Dudley.
There were many, many OTHER “Federal Level” people on the SAIT investigation team.
The only thing that was NOT happening on the Federal level was that OIG trip-wire for an independent investigation by THAT “Federal Level” agency.
A little clearer WTKTT
That was a requested team BY THE ARIZONA STATE FIRE.
I was talking of the death investigation by and for a Federal Fatality.
And yes the OIG would have been involved if the Fatalities had been Federal even on a State fire.
Do not get confused with the Team investigation. These teams mainly the leaders are set up for all Fire Fatality investigations some already trained and available like the one Arizona got. They as well come from The National Interagency Fire Center by Order or request. More of the co-op thing.
In Arizona’s case they Got ADOSH. after the team.
In a federal case they would get OSHA and OIG after the team.
The SAIT Teams are sent on request to the Agency in need.
And always consist of a mixture of organizations.
The SAIT is paid by the ordering agency in this case Arizona Fire under the Yarnell hill Charge code, just like the FF were ordered.
The investigation was in and for the state of Arizona. Not in and for the FS or BLM.
It is confusing if you only look at the assigned leaders on the SAIT and where they are from rather than looking at a team set up Trained and ready to respond as a SAIT. You can look at the fires this last year where these teams responded.
I hope that helps again it is a Agreed to Co-op written and signed and reviewed yearly with each State and the Government There are several of these different agreements within the National Fire organizations In each State.
This is all intertwined with the ICS program.
Reply to Bob Powers post on
March 23, 2016 at 12:13 pm
>> Bob Powers said…
>>
>> A little clearer WTKTT
>>
>> That was a requested team BY THE
>> ARIZONA STATE FIRE.
>>
>> I was talking of the death investigation by
>> and for a Federal Fatality.
I know exactly what you were talking about.
You were pointing out that IF that had been a ‘Federal Hotshots’ team burned to death on the floor of that canyon… then the “FEDS” would have been “involved” in the investigations.
I was pointing out to YOU that from a sheer “Who was doing the investigating” perspective… there was PLENTY of “FEDERAL” involvement just based on how many FEDERAL employees really WERE “involved in the investigation”… from Dudley to Phipps to every one of the other FEDERAL EMPLOYEES on that SAIT.
And regardless of whether they were ‘contracted’ by Arizona Forestry or not… Dudley ended up following the FEDERAL GUIDELINES for conducting the investigation.
So your statement that there was “no Federal involvement in the investigation(s)” that WERE conducted is fundamentally FALSE.
The FEDS ( USFS employees ) were “all over it”.
Soup to nuts.
You miss the simple fact that the guide lines were developed by all agencies not just Federal.
The Guidelines are signed off by all agencies who are directly connected to and part of the NIFC.
It is not just a federal organization There are state as well as federal managers who have an equal say in the organization, rules, direction and management.
Again the investigation was not federally mandated
Just because some of the overhead on the SAIT were Federal dose not make it a Federal sanctioned Investigation.
It was a equally accepted organization run according to the agreement of all parties. The make up was not hand picked to be Federal or State but to provide a cadre of trained people from where ever they worked that had been trained in this very difficult investigation following the direction of the ICS/NIFC organization. They are tasked with not finding individual fault —which I disagree with— but that is the new norm to keep people from lawsuits.
It is not the SAIT that represents any State or Federal investigation. They are there to investigate the Fire Fatalities and Cause. Other agencies investigate the legal aspects LIKE ADOS or OSHA or OIG.
Sonny was asking Why The FBI or The President were not involved. The responsibility was with the STATE and The Governor for this State Fire.
.
Reply to Bob Powers post on
March 23, 2016 at 4:54 pm
>> Bob Powers said…
>>
>> Sonny was asking Why The FBI
>> or The President were not involved.
>> The responsibility was with the
>> STATE and The Governor for this
>> State Fire.
Yes. That IS, in fact, the ‘answer’ to Sonny’s question.
>> Bob Powers also said…
>>
>> Just because some of the overhead
>> on the SAIT were Federal dose not
>> make it a Federal sanctioned
>> Investigation.
Again… YES… but here’s your same logic right back atcha with regards to MY ‘point’…
Just because this was not a Federally ‘sanctioned’ investigation doesn’t mean there wasn’t a heavy level of ‘Federal’ involvement in the ‘investigation’.
There WAS.
Now you are playing word games.
If you are saying there were a lot of Federal employees on the SAIT that may be true.
Again it was not a Federal Investigation.
Had lets say a heavily loaded State team SAIT been on
So under that assumption a Federal fire with a SAIT team with State appointed people would then be a heavily loaded State investigation.
My point being The teams SAIT are put together based on availability of team members. so the make up is never the same based on Time Location Training and Availability.
So I am done with the word games. Take about 6 months and learn about the NIFC organization and what it dose besides send people to fires through out the Country and to other Country’s..
Reply to Woodsman post on March 23, 2016 at 6:16 am
>> Woodsman said…
>>
>> I want to know if it is possible that GM calculated that
>> they had time to make it to the Helm’s ranch -even
>> though it was a high risk choice to travel through the
>> manzainita- but became trapped by the firing operation
>> that Sonny has mentioned numerous times. Is it POSSIBLE?
In a word… NO.
I know that Sonny has been mentioning this ‘Shrine Road burnout’ a lot lately… and as anyone who has been following along here knows… I am as open to any/all theories about what happened that day as anyone on the planet… but this has all been covered at length in other ‘Chapters’ and there is still ( currently ) absolutely NO EVIDENCE that anyone ever attempted or initiated ANY kind of manual ‘burn out’ ANYWHERE near the Shrine Road that day.
Especially not any official fire personnel that would have had FIRA or FIRB ratings and using actual ‘drip torches’.
TFLD(t) Tyson Esquibel testified to ADOSH that at one point, as they were evacuating the Youth Camp, some consideration was given to ‘lighting up’ that area as they left… but that did NOT happen.
The only manual ‘burnouts’ known to have been initiated that afternoon by any official fire personnel were on the EAST side of Highway 89 and over near the Ranch House Restaurant… to try and protect some structures over there AFTER the fire had already ‘spotted’ over Highway 89. And yes… there are some ‘rock walls’ over in that area as well.
The following video shows pretty clearly that the fireline that would eventually kill Granite Mountain was pretty much the exact same ‘western’ component of the fire that they were sitting there watching with their own eyes ( and taking pictures of ) circa 3:50 PM at that ‘rest spot’. It continually picked up speed in a DUE SOUTH direction the entire time they were hiking south towards the box canyon ( and they should have been able to see this themselves the whole time ).
It swept AROUND those two ‘mounds’ out in the middle bowl that we have been calling ( for lack of any better names ) “Little Round Top” and “Big Round Top”… and then it headed directly for the mouth of the box canyon. The winds and the ‘chimney effect’ helped it make a ‘left turn’ and spread due west in the canyon towards the deployment site.
The following video was developed from that ‘raw footage’ taken by ABC15 Helicopter ‘Air15’ as it was over the Yarnell Fire for a 50 minute period on June 30, 2013 from 3:50 PM to 4:40 PM.
Helicopter Air15 ( Five Hotel Delta ) called Thomas French on the Air-To-Air channel to say they were ‘done filming’ and leaving the area DURING the actual MAYDAY radio call sequence.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NSYpnPMfPmc
When the video above starts… you can see that ‘western part’ of the fireline that was going to eventually kill Granite Mountain in the upper right corner of the video. At the time this video was taken… it was ALREADY ‘flowing around’ the ‘Little Round Top” and “Big Round Top” mounds out in the middle bowl… and heading straight for the mouth of the box canyon.
WTKTT,
The work you did on that video is incredible. That really, really helps! Thank you for doing that!!!
Woodsman
Sonny,
I am sorry to be the one to tell you this, but since you asked…I have not heard of any evidence that any federal crime was committed on the Yarnell Hill Fire or in it’s aftermath.
And besides that, the FBI would be one of the last agencies I would ask to investigate that fire or it’s aftermath even if there were violations of federal law. Training and experience in highly specialized areas matter.
And I never knew, or heard of any FBI agent in all of my years of service who would have the slightest idea where to even begin investigating the YHF or what has happened since, much less be able to conduct a thorough, competent, and complete investigation.
Because you have participated here for almost three years, YOU would do a better job of investigating this mess than any FBI agent I ever worked with would. So…
And just to help you wrap your head around this fact, perhaps a brief tutorial in Criminal Justice 101 is in order. Contrary to what many believe, the greatest and broadest law enforcement powers do no reside with the federal government…even the FBI. The most power rests with the county sheriff’s office and at the state and levels, but mostly with the sheriff’s office.
That is the way our founding fathers wanted it and that is how they designed the system to work This was due to an overwhelming fear of having too much power in the hands of the federal government because of their bad experiences with the Crown of England. Our founding fathers specifically did not want a national police force.
Now…that cross-dressing gay hating homophobic who was gay…J. Edgar Hoover did a lot to undermine that system with his black books and black mails of every President he theoretically served, not to mention everyone who had any power on Capitol Hill, but even he couldn’t completely override the U.S. Constitution.
Most things are not a violation of federal law…murder for example, except in some cases that are associated with a terrorist attack, but most crimes are not violations of federal law. Furthermore, even for those crimes that do violate federal law, the authority to investigate those crimes and the corresponding jurisdiction are highly compartmentalized among a wide variety of federal agencies.
The last time I heard, there are more than 80 federal agencies who are partners for training purposes at FLETC and who employ federal special agents to investigate federal crimes that the U.S. Congress “assigned” specifically to those agencies by federal law .
For example, the DEA investigates violations of the controlled substance act, postal inspectors investigate violations of the U.S. mail and Post Offices, the Bureau of ATF and now they added E for explosives investigate violations of federal firearms and explosives laws…and bootleggers, HUD special agents investigate fraud etc. in federal housing, the Secret Service protects the President etc and to give them something else to do to keep them busy in off year elections…counterfeiting. I could go on and on but why? You probably get the picture.
If you are going to ask for someone at the federal level to investigate the YHF you should be looking at special agents who have special training and backgrounds from the USDA-Forest Service or USDI-BLM…not the FBI. The FBI couldn’t find their asses with both hands even if all of the evidence was shoved up…where the sun don’t shine.
Oh…and one more thing. The FBI doesn’t have anywhere near enough resources to get involved in something like the YHF. More than 99 out of every 100 bank robberies are not even investigated by the FBI or prosecuted by the U.S. Attorneys Office even though that is their “thing” ever since that cross dressing homophobic gay hating gay person by the name of J. Edgar Hoover made the FBI what is is by chasing the tommy gun wielding bank robbers back in the day because that is where all of the press was and the public’s attention was focused.
Ever since 9/11, every special agent for the FBI has been up on a wire or doing manned surveillance of terrorist cells in this country trying to stop the next big one…which is coming any time now. So I hope they have finally got their shit together after failing to connect the dots right before 9/11 or things are going to get European Union like right here in our own back yard…and nobody will be thinking about the YHF. Hardly ANYBODY cares or thinks about the YHF anymore.
You would know better than I Gary. I thought with their ways of uncovering corruption and unbiased methods they might be the best in something like this. It is obvious the state gave this little consideration except to glorify a failed wild fire fighting effort that led to much tragedy.
I do believe that there are people very capable including you and so many others that are eager to get to the bottom of this that should be paid and encouraged to expose what was left undone. WTKTT is correct is saying there is too much at stake here in this historic tragic event that reaches beyond the deaths of 19 GMHS. It touches the very soul of America and something that necessitates the exposition of all its causes of failure.
One thing is I live here and have lived through this tragedy. I see its effects and as well have felt them as have the people in this town and Prescott where these men originated. We do not need a repeat–and truth will deny that repeat. Gary if I had my druthers it would be you heading the investigation, WTKTT right behind you with all the other, especially RTS, Bob Powers, Dr. Ted Putnam, John Dougherty, and the likes to do what would be done properly. I know you and others here have worked to let no stone be overturned–you have kept your men alive and you are concerned how a tragedy could have been avoided and how the information learned from this debacle can be remedied because all of us do not ever want to have this type so called incident repeated. Lives, homes, and money that could have been used toward improving the fire fighting community have been squandered because of what happened here.
The people on this site have challenged the cover up without fear. Sometimes I want to believe it is all a futile effort–the boat will go on with smooth waters the fire gods want despite the search for truth. But then I am reminded you are the old fire gods–you see the truth and want it out there. That is the right thing–and for my own thoughts, what the hell do I know being just an old miner? I stand corrected where I am wrong.
And for clarification, most FBI special agents do a great job most of the time investigating most of the things they are trained to investigate. So when I said they couldn’t find their asses with both hands it was in reference to the Yarnell Hill Fire.
And when I said they failed to connect the dots shortly before 9/11 I was referring specifically to the FBI special agent out of the Phoenix office who wrote the memo to the their Washington Office that said, more or less;
“HEY! FYI…we have some Middle Eastern Types from Saudi Arabia here at Embry Riddle, you know, from the place where they have all of the Madrases that train all of the young people to want to destroy our way of life while they fund Islamic Terrorists all around the world with their oil money, well…anyway, these guys ONLY WANT TO KNOW HOW TO FLY THE PLANE AND STEER IT ONCE IT IS IN THE AIR! They never show up for class when they are talking about LANDING the fucking planes…so, HEADS UP!”
I keep pointing to the YAVAPAI COUNTY SHERIFFS OFFICE. Sheriff SCOTT MASCHER who is the CHIEF Law Enforcement Officer for all of Yavapai County because that is the way our founding fathers wanted it.
And unlike in the movies, when the FBI special agents show up in his county, they kiss his ass. And he usually puts up with them (or any other federal types) because they have access to a lot of funding and resources he doesn’t…if he wants those resources and he usually doesn’t, so he tells them (and all other federal types) to fuck off.
New Mexico Sheriffs and the New Mexico State Police mostly work closely with federal types by giving them cross delegations (I was cross certified as a New Mexico State Police Officer and in several counties in addition to half a dozen other cross delegations including one as a U.S Marshall and with the DEA in addition to several other federal agencies).
BUT Sheriffs in the Republic of Arizona consider it a badge of honor and a show of strength and how effective they can be by telling as many federal types to fuck off as much as possible.
The problem always has been and always will be…Sheriffs Offices don’t know shit from Shinola about “birthin’ no babies” (Gone With The Wind) when it comes to investigating wildfires and so they turned EVERYTHING, just like they always have done, everywhere…over to the SAIT or their equivalent.
The Arizona State Forester and the Chief of the U.S. Forest Service KNEW they would do that because they always do, and that is what they were counting on and they weren’t disappointed.
And as far as the Yavapai Sheriffs Office goes, they and the citizens of Yavapai County and the Republic of Arizona think everything pertaining to the investigation of the Yarnell Hill Fire and its aftermath went just FINE…so there is NO PROBLEM except for a few conspiracy theory nut jobs who don’t have anything else better to do except blog here on this thread, but they (WE) don’t matter, we lost a long time ago and Amanda Marsh is in control According to almost everyone in Yavapai County YOU are the problem not the SAIT. .
So,,,heads up.
Strange as it may seem when Joy was adamant to stay on that two track and we were actually about to part ways since she had her mind made up to go what I saw as even a more difficult path than the GMHS down toward the SE and to Helms. I really think she would have waited and unknowingly been suddenly joined by the GMHS since she was parked on the two track where they went down. I had topped the Weavers and it came to my mind that if I leave her and that fire reverses and she is caught in her attempt to get out, old Sonny would likely charged with murder. It was a thought in my mind and even if I were not I would be wearing a guilt trip the rest of my life. She would have had some beautiful close
ups of the fire if her camera had survived.
Sometimes I wonder of all the estimations of so many men’s minds clouded up with human factors. I wonder why my mind was not at all clouded at what I was seeing and what could happen if you went down that mountain into that manzanita trap. I think because I was not under any obligation to risk my life. But then I think there are certain people that can mesmerize people. Not all are hypnotizable–I have tried to be but never felt the hypnotic effect the practiced hypnosis professional believed he had. Hitler had a bunch mesmerized and I wonder if Trump has that same effect on certain people. I see Hillary as one to put out a carrot while Trump is a thumper. Maybe Gary has it right about the Sheep–can’t think on their own and are utterly dependent upon the Shepard and sheep dog for their lives.
When it comes down to it most Americans have decent intelligence, but then most are programmed. Hell I have enough institutionalization from years of education it is a wonder I have any mind at all that is my own. Is this Fireman’s Academy something again that is programming people to think on tunnel vision and inside a fucking box so they have no mind of their own? I have not been there but any University I have ever attended and there are at least three I can think of I generally questioned just about everything told to me which does not make you so popular–in fact cost me a Master’s in Bull Shit in one. But I would lay odds that every one of those professors that did not like differing opinion would have followed Marsh right down there into that trap. Some of those I had might have been a better influence had they been able to think out of the box a bit.
Whatever SOnny…have your fun..
wwtktt said: What Ms. Neill has always failed to realize is that even the ‘evidence’ that she was so excited about ‘finding’ that she contacted ADOSH directly to try and get them to ‘ammend’ their findings was, itself, “another can of worms”.
MY REPLY: Brett Steurer stated to Holly and Joy when we presented new concrete evidence that ADOSH cannot reopen the case- they had ONE shot at it, and the case must be submitted within the first six months. However Brett was one of the men on the task to investigate it and I won’t talk about what was said on hike due to the sensitivity of it but Brett will never forget this case and so if you have new evidence he would like to see it because he is willing to listen to any information to figure out this all….this personally weighs heavy on his heart like so many of us and also we all have put a lot of time and effort maybe a few ulcers so officially he cannot request or take any new information or interviews but Brett is a very good man and he did in the upmost professional manner conduct himself SPOT ON…so to answer you WWTKTT…no can of worms can happen with ADOSH
EVEN if Donut or missing elements came forward because the Arizona Forester case IS closed.
Reply to Joy A. Collura post on March 22, 2016 at 7:51 pm
>> Joy A. Collura said…
>>
>> Brett Steurer stated to Holly and Joy when we presented new
>> concrete evidence that ADOSH cannot reopen the case- they
>> had ONE shot at it, and the case must be submitted within
>> the first six months.
Holly Neill did not (initially) contact Brett Steurer.
Holly Neill went ‘right to the top’ and FIRST contacted ADOSH investigation lead Marshall Krotenberg on Monday, January 6, 2014.
She SIGNED her initial email to Krotenberg as “A FAN of GMIHC”.
Holly Neill did not KNOW whether she would be able to cause ADOSH to ‘amend’ or ‘rewrite’ their ‘report’… but that is exactly what she WANTED them to do.
She was telling ADOSH directly that she felt her ‘new evidence’ would (quote) “CORRECT the ERRORS” in their original report ( with regards to Eric Marsh and GM )… and that ‘changing’ and/or ‘amending’ their report would ( in Holly Neill’s own words ) “CORRECT previous assumptions” and “leave a more positive and accurate legacy” for GM and the family members.
There has never been any doubt what Holly Neill’s real AGENDA is.
Here’s that exact email exchange that took place between Holly Neill and ADOSH lead investigator Marshall Krotenberg… from the first email where she was trying to hide her identity and signed it as just “A FAN of GMIHC”, to the point where they were allowing her to ‘submit’ her ‘new evidence” and she was finally ‘signing’ the emails with her real name…
/ ADOSH / Dropbox / Notes and Emails / Krotenberg / N9589 January 2014.pdf
Holly Neil’s original email to ADOSH lead investigator Marshall Krotenberg…
PDF page 2 ( of 11 pages )
————————————————————————-
From: Gm Ihc
Sent: Monday, January 06, 2014 7:18 PM
To: Krotenberg, Marshall – OSHA State ( AZ-SP )
Subject: question about GMIHC
Hello Marshall,
I have been researching the Yarnell Hill Fire. I am a retired wildland firefighter.
I need to ask you a question. If evidence exists that would correct the errors reportedly made by Marsh/GMIHC would you be interested in knowing about it?
What would be the outcome to this?
Would you be able to print an addendum to the report to add clarity and additional details to the original report?
The goal would be to give the Families and the WFF community the TRUTH so that we can all move forward, heal and apply lessons learned that are clearly based on the actual circumstances.
At this point I would like to know if an addendum is even possible, especially considering the litigation climate? Or is your report considered complete and closed and unable to be revised?
Please advise on the ADOSH position on this kind of thing and if you would be open to talking with me.
Thank you, a fan of GMIHC
————————————————————————-
NOTE: The very next morning, Marshall Krotenberg replied…
————————————————————————-
From: Krotenberg, Marshall – OSHA State ( AZ-SP)
To: Gm Ihc ( xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx Redacted )
Sent: Tue, Jan 7, 2014 9:50 AM
Subject: RE: question about GMIHC
Can you call me to discuss further?
Marshall Krotenberg, CIH, CSP
Safety Compliance Supervisor
Arizona Division of Occupational Safety and Health
800 W. Washington Street
Phoenix, AZ 85007
direct: xxx-xxx-xxxx ( Redacted )
fax: xxx-xxx-xxxx ( Redacted )
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx ( Redacted )
————————————————————————-
NOTE: 40 minutes later, Holly Neil replied to Marshall Krotenberg…
————————————————————————-
From: Gm Ihc ( xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx Redacted )
Sent: Tuesday, January 07, 2014 10:30 AM
To: Krotenberg, Marshall – OSHA State ( AZ-SP )
Subject: Re: question about GMIHC
Hey, Will you be your office this afternoon? I can call you after 2pm MTN
time or set up a convenient time for you?
————————————————————————-
NOTE: 10 minutes later… Krotenberg responded to Neill…
————————————————————————-
From: Krotenberg, Marshall – OSHA State ( AZ-SP)
To: Gm Ihc ( xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx Redacted )
Sent: Tue, Jan 7, 2014 10:40 AM
Subject: RE: question about GMIHC
How about 4:00 pm MST today?
Marshall Krotenberg, CIH, CSP
Safety Compliance Supervisor
Arizona Division of Occupational Safety and Health
800 W. Washington Street
Phoenix, AZ 85007
direct: xxx-xxx-xxxx ( Redacted )
fax: xxx-xxx-xxxx ( Redacted )
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx ( Redacted )
————————————————————————-
NOTE: 1 hour and 13 minutes later, Neill responded to Krotenberg…
————————————————————————-
From: Gm Ihc ( xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx Redacted )
Sent: Tuesday, January 07, 2014 11:53 AM
To: Krotenberg, Marshall – OSHA State ( AZ-SP )
Subject: Re: question about GMIHC
OK, I’ll call you at 4pm, my area code is 505 for your caller ID.
————————————————————————-
NOTE: Holly Neill made that 4:00 PM phone call to Marshall Krotenberg and they talked for 2 hours. The next morning… she sent Marshall this next email. She was still sending the email using ‘From: Gm Ihc’ but now, instead of signing the text body of her emails with just ‘A fan of GMIHC’, she is now signing it using her real first name ( Holly )…
————————————————————————-
From: Gm Ihc ( xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx Redacted )
Sent: Wednesday, January 08, 2014 10:17 AM
To: Krotenberg, Marshall – OSHA State ( AZ-SP )
Subject: GM audio
Hi Marshall,
I contacted Dan O’Brien last night and sent him the audio file and transcript.
He is going to review it with Barry and Dave and go from there.
I enjoyed our 2 hour talk yesterday.
Thanks, Holly
————————————————————————-
NOTE: Within less than 60 seconds… Marshall Krotenberg replied to Holly Neil…
————————————————————————-
From: Krotenberg, Marshall – OSHA State ( AZ-SP)
To: Gm Ihc ( xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx Redacted )
Sent: Wed, Jan 8, 2014 10:17 am
Subject: RE: GM audio
Got it, thanks. I just got off the phone with Dan.
Marshall Krotenberg, CIH, CSP
Safety Compliance Supervisor
Arizona Division of Occupational Safety and Health
800 W. Washington Street
Phoenix, AZ 85007
direct: xxx-xxx-xxxx ( Redacted )
fax: xxx-xxx-xxxx ( Redacted )
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx ( Redacted )
————————————————————————-
NOTE: 3 hours and 16 minutes later, Holly Neill replied again to Marshall Krotenberg and is now attaching her own ‘analysis’ of the audio recordings….
————————————————————————-
From: Gm Ihc ( xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx Redacted )
Sent: Wednesday, January 08, 2014 1:33 PM
To: Krotenberg, Marshall – OSHA State ( AZ-SP )
Subject: Re: GM audio
Attachments: Audio Results.docx
Marshall,
Here is an analysys I put together of some possible implications,
in attachment doc. Something to think about…
Best to you… Holly\
————————————————————————-
One of Holly Neill’s ‘analysis’ document sent to ADOSH…
————————————————————————-
To: WFA
From: Holly Neill
01-07-2013
The audio file I am sending is the cleaned, audio only version.
From _README file: …the time stamp on the video ( 16162 ) is the
end time of the video, not the beginning. Video length 3:31
The original Video/audio is from: SAIT Investigation Record \ F-PhotosAndVideos \
A05-20130630AerialFirefightingStudyPhotosVideos
Video: 20130630-16162-O-VLAT-split-1-E-P
Start at 00:41: Background conversation:
First voice: Division Alpha… (unclear on the next word.. Todd? OPS? Ah?)… what’s your status ( pronounced stay-tus ) right now?
Marsh: Ah the guys, ah Granite is making their way down—our escape route from this morning. It’s ah, it’s South… Mid slope, cut vertical.
A Different Voice: Copy. Working their (our?) way down into the structures.
First Voice Again: …on the escape route with Granite Mountain right now?
Marsh: Nah, I’m at the house where we’re gonna jump out at.
I have used the above audio file to make some comparisons to the SAIR and WFA reports to illustrate some of the possible implications of this audio. Changes would need to be made to add this additional information and correct previous assumptions. I believe this will lead to leaving a more positive and accurate legacy to the GMIHC; providing more clarity for their families, and adding a better understanding of possible lessons the entire WFF community can learn.
Holly Neill.
————————————————————————-
NOTE: The ‘more positive and accurate’ legacy that Holly Neill is referring to in her own email above is because she believed what she was hearing in the Panebaker audio was PROOF that Eric Marsh had made it all the way to the Boulder Springs Ranch… which she felt would also represent PROOF that like a good little Hotshot… Eric Marsh had ‘scouted the escape route’… and that people should STOP saying he did NOT.
See above.
This is exactly what I was saying about Ms. Neill not seeming to realize that even if she was RIGHT… any real PROOF that Eric Marsh might have been out ahead of those men was going to RAISE many more ‘disturbing’ questions than it would answer.
Just proving that Eric was a ‘good little hotshot’ and was out ‘scouting the escape route’ was NOT going to AUTOMATICALLY lead ( as Ms. Neill seemed to think ) to a “more positive and accurate’ legacy” for GM.
On the contrary.
I do not support the new evidence and I had an expert analyze the audio and I trust my source and I already said this to Holly and on Gabberts page…just need more for me…to state legacy and truth and not going here on this topic but people who know my feelings on topic….
Joy… the ‘audio’ doesn’t matter anymore.
Brendan McDonough has already testified ( in public ) that Eric Marsh WAS ‘out ahead’ of Jesse Steed and the crew that day.
Brendan still knows much more… but at least he HAS finally revealed that fact.
And all that does is ( as I knew it would ) RAISE even more ‘disturbing’ questions than it ANSWERS.
I will not talk on this topic but I will say there has to be more than the audio…maybe Eric talked to a friend or something and that person communicated with Holly or John…that makes more sense to me.
reason why Eric’s cell phone is so crucially important
Reply to Joy A. Collura post on
March 22, 2016 at 9:00 pm
>> Joy A. Collura
>>
>> I will not talk on this topic but I will say there has
>> to be more than the audio…
There IS ‘more’, Joy.
Brendan McDonough has already rendered that ‘audio’ evidence moot and has TESTIFIED ( in PUBLIC, via Bill Gabbert ) that Eric Marsh WAS ‘out ahead’ of Jesse Steed and the crew that afternoon.
Are you saying you still don’t trust what McDonough testified to over at ‘Wildfire Today’?
The hikers saw exactly what donut saw…marsh scouting… My concern is donut has a book opportunity and he opts to take it where he did…there are people who partied with donut that we hiked and or spent time with and donut is very careful in his wording publicly
Soooo… I take that to mean your answer to the question I just asked you is… YES?
You do NOT believe that McDonough is ‘telling the truth’ when he says he heard ( over that GM intra-crew radio ferquency ) that Marsh was, in fact, going to “scout ahead” towards the Boulder Springs Ranch that afternoon?
It’s okay if you don’t ( believe him ).
I’m just trying to discern what you are saying.
believe there is more than that tidbit and he only is offering out just that.
Sonny just woke me to put up his fence and I was in an interactive dream with Grant n
Marcia’s son Grant and Donut. It was a really great dream that maybe one day I can share to Donut because it was interactive n informative so I do think there is more than just that piece of information so he either shares it all or I am not paying Donut much mind on tidbits.
Joy remember where Marsh phone is now
It is gone thrown in the trash by Amanda after she got it back from the Autopsy.
So any evidence on there is now long gone.
Reply to Joy A. Collura post on
March 23, 2016 at 7:26 am
>> Joy A. Collura said…
>>
>> believe there is more than that tidbit
>> and he only is offering out just that.
Same here. There’s no doubt that Brendan does “know more”… as well as those 3 other Blue Ridge Hotshtos who were moving the other GM vehicles and listening to the same GM intra-crew radio traffic that Brendan was.
>> Joy A. Collura said…
>>
>> I do think there is more than just
>> that piece of information so he either
>> shares it all or I am not paying Donut
>> much mind on tidbits.
I ( me, personally ) don’t think Brendan finally admitting that he knew/heard that Marsh was “scouting ahead” of Steed and the Crew that day is a ‘tidbit’. I think that’s important… and as much as I wish Brendan would still tell everything he knows… I believe he is telling the truth ( finally ) about that one ‘part of the story’.
So that makes whatever Holly Neill *thought* she was hearing in that Air Study video a moot point. Brendan’s ‘testimony’ means Marsh really WAS ‘out ahead’ of Steed and the crew that day.
Holly Neill’s entire point about what she thought she was hearing is that she felt it was PROOF that Marsh really did “scout the escape route”… and that made him look better, or more competent, or something.
She didn’t realize that ANY proof that Marsh was out AHEAD of Jesse and the crew ( and not with them or behind them ) was going to raise it’s own set of ‘competency’ questions… and also produce even more ‘disturbing’ questions that deserve answers.
awful thought to look back and think of that.
I have been through very horrific moments in my life so in a strange way I do get her doing that action but from an investigative perspective it was one of the most crucial to me and you do not need the cell and I know that because I investigated my own cell from this horrific weekend— that should of been court ordered mandatory but since this all began there is certain folks just trying to glaze this weekend to be swallowable /approachable topic vs down right choke you up and break you down – angry from the depth of a person’s soul for all the losses because there was not just chaos but negligence without a doubt- in my humble opinion…
John Dougherty started new chapter
OK WTKTT, we will get you a measure of the exact length of the line cut by GMHS. That will clear up some of what you are talking about and what time they spent after Trueheart Brown was at the line with GMHS. Did you have a time for that visit by Trueheart? If not it could maybe be estimated by the 100 yard time line. You cover the details so well, a book by you or at least a synopsis once this is completed would be a great addition from the civilian perspective. You have encouraged much of my own interest–beside my own personal tragedy and the fact we were on the line, lived the evacuation like the Katrina people in that GYM, then did the desert again including 8 months near Congress, Alamo Lake west side almost a month in that March heat, then wandering all over hell. A friend, Matt lent us a cabin in the Navajo Lake area but we could only stand that 9000 ft level for about a month and never were able to acclimate to that high altitude. So it was off to Nevada for a while, then attempts to purchase a property failed so Joy and I disagreed and separated, so I was off to Montana, even meeting Dr. Ted Putnam while I was living in my jeep in the Wal Mart parking lot in Helena for a time still looking for a place to reside.
I truly believe those many hikes we did with important individuals concerned with the fire did me and Joy in. It has taken me some study and time and seeing all these locals die and that I could no long acclimate to anything higher than 6000 ft., then a heart attack in Montana and three more here that I realized my lungs were compromised from the emissions we got here in Yarnell. Most of the NH3 is dissipated over time but the enormous amount that was dropped near Yarnell has taken its toll on the locals. I knew something was wrong not too long after the fire when I was finding myself at times unable to get across a parking lot at Wal Mart without stopping for breath. I was riding bike around Helena for transportation yet suffering all the while and having to stop being winded fast. I fought the chest pains all along and now here at Yarnell after six heart stints and three heart attacks found myself in the worse condition ever as far as stamina and health. I have come to realize it is the elderly that took the brunt of this problem since younger folks can stand to loose a great amount of lung capacity and actually even older folks operate on a slim lung basis.
I will take Joys father who just recently passed for example. He had one lung, even so, smoked 5 packs of cigarettes a day, did no exercise, yet had another mass on the other lung and still lived after the lung was removed in 1987 until 2015–that is 28 more years after the lung was gone and the cigarette habit and other bad lung still in process. It makes me wonder how in 13 years we loose over 83 people in this small town–is there a catalyst among the hidden 8-13% hidden to go along with that lung killing NH3 that make it even more deadly?
Joy’s Dad’s obituary is in today’s Wickenburg sun–I am sure it will tell it as it is–she is that way, including mentioning his enjoyment of Budweiser. You have got to love people like Joy, they tell it as they see it and believe it which means she is not a sheep, but someone not afraid to express the facts.
So the fish killing orange shit now manufactured in Israel and with a goodly amount of secret chemical ingredients dumped near residents is suspect. You wild land fire fighters look the other way as I did as a Uranium miner because that is the occupation you enjoy and want to do just as I did as a miner. You, like myself from Uranium mining won’t know the effects until you are older since it is a time release thing. It only affects those already depleted in health and lung power. You may not even attribute those problems you later find to the hellacious amount of retardant and its emissions you breath in. Your bosses will lie to you since they are brain washed by the chemical companies that this stuff is inert. So was I lied to as a Uranium miner–the small doses you get won’t hurt you. Never mind by now I have had over 20 cancers removed from my body including melanoma, yet none of my three siblings have ever had one removed.
Will this retardant ever have a study for its health effects? Don’t hold your breath–this is a multi-billion dollar chemical industry. They will tell you it is safe as a baby. I think it is safer to smoke cigarettes at 5 packs a day than it is to breath this shit in –especially if you are and elder.
I wrote in 13 years–what it shoud be but actually only three years after the fire we lost the 84 people. And do not think I advocate cigarette smoking even though it is likely safer than breathing the retardant emissions. You don’t need the pain of having a lung removed and other health problems. Joy’s written obituary of her Dad is based on much time and medical research she has done–I have witnessed the time she has put in on it. He also had a blood poisoning, something that might have killed him beside the smoking. She is not done with her research–same as why 19 died uselessly.
you are correct there Sonny…I am researching not only my father but these 19…I do not buy into the program. YES, my father did much contributing factors like smoke 5 packs a day of cigarettes with no filter on them and he loved his Budweiser and he always on his non drinking days had a pot of stout black coffee going all day long drinking it- and had one lung removed in 87′ and a mass on the other and cardiac issues and most people would think great he died in my sleep but he was a Leo and when he roared Thanksgiving week he felt like he was being poisoned I chuckled it off as he was the main contributing factor but I have spent much time exhausting if it was anything else even in forensic stage but in it I also am doing the same for the 19 because just because they had some contributing factor in the end I want to make sure no stone is left unturned and I will feel I did my best…I did watch tv in the 70’s Gary; Nancy Drew/Hardy Boys/Miss Marple/Time Tunnel/Combat/Twilight Zone were my shows of choice hence my inquisitive nature.
a lot of my research has remained with people I know who don’t blab like I see Sonny has done to me- he is not a person you can share to and he keeps it to himself- he says he is but get a few in him and you can work anything out of him and again his perception is not always “reality”…that is a FACT. Some things are down right unkind and have no basis- To me, I can brush things off and fresh start but the fact I tell him something with the words can you keep it between us and he comes here immediately and blab tells me such…
oh Gary and Six Million Dollar Man and Wonder Woman and Bionic Woman and Fantasy Island
Charlie said:OK WTKTT, we will get you a measure of the exact length of the line cut by GMHS.
MY REPLY: WE does not mean me and him…maybe someone else is helping him..
Reply to Charlie ( Sonny ) post on March 23, 2016 at 7:53 am
>> Charlie ( Sonny ) said…
>>
>> OK WTKTT, we will get you a measure of the exact length of the
>> line cut by GMHS. That will clear up some of what you are
>> talking about and what time they spent after Trueheart Brown
>> was at the line with GMHS.
In all honesty, Sonny, I don’t think that’s really worth the effort.
The SAIT investigators themselves were ‘out there’ and their final estimate for the total amount of ‘completed handline’ by GM up in that area ended up being represented by that ‘green line’ on their map on page ‘ii’ of the SAIR.
That ‘green line’ is a little ‘fuzzy’ on that map… but it absolutely represents only about 145 to 250 yards of ‘completed handline’.
If you look at that ‘expected line production rates’ chart in the NWCG, that difference between a minimum measurement of 145 yards and a possible maximum measurement of 250 yards only amounts to difference of 45 minutes.
So anyway you ‘cut it’ ( either just 145 or up to a possible 250 yards )… the STORY is still the same. They didn’t accomplish more than what would normally have been just 1 hours worth of work, or perhaps 1 hour 30 or 1 hour 45 minutes.
That doesn’t come anywhere near the 6 ( SIX ) hours they were actually there working in that location.
And that’s why I was just saying that even being someone who is a stickler for details, I myself don’t think it’s worth the effort it will take to determine whether it was REALLY just 145 yards, or REALLY just 200 yards.
Either number still represents a ‘pitiful’ amount of actual ‘productive work’ for 19 (supposedly) elite Type 1 Hotshots working that area… and it doesn’t change the STORY represented there… and/or the indications that those men were already exhausted, sleep-deprived, hungover, or just plain ‘sandbagging’ it that day.
>> Charlie ( Sonny ) also said…
>>
>> Did you have a time for that visit by Trueheart?
Yes. That is an absolute known ( and taken from Brown’s own GPS unit ).
The Blue Ridge Polaris Ranger UTV with Brian Frisby and Trueheart Brown in it ARRIVED up there at the anchor point for that face-to-face with Eric and Jesse Steed at exactly 11:55 AM.
The ‘face-to-face lasted almost exactly 30 minutes.
At exactly 12:25 PM… the Polaris Ranger is now ‘on the move’ again and leaving the anchor point to go and drop Brendan McDonough off down at the old-grader.
So call it exactly NOON when Trueheart Brown said in his own typed Unit Log that he ‘noticed’ that Granite Mountain only had 100 yards of line ‘secured’.
Granite Mountain went ‘tools up’ right around 3:30 PM, after Byron Kimball’s 3:30 PM weather report.
So that leaves 3 and 1/2 hours ( between NOON and 3:30 PM ) for Granite Mountain to have added to that 100 yards of ‘line work’ that Brown reported seeing at NOON.
Holly’s Statements below need some clarification—-
The 5 Doctors/ MD’s
Dr. Shvarts, Dr. Enstice, Dr. Poulos, Dr. Shelly, Dr. Wallis
The only MD who made any reference to the EA reports or conclusions was Dr. Enstice.
Four had None to .02 but he missed a conclusion on Zuppiger who the Lab Director found .04
But Dr. Enstice only reported on 1 finding of .01. No comment on the .04.
The Laboratory Director Norman Wade did all the lab work but maid no conclusion of the differences in the EA reports or the higher readings.
This lack of conclusions is staggering coming from 5 different MD’s.
No conclusion on McKee’s different drugs in the Blood.
No conclusion on the 2-.09, 1- .05, and 2- .03.
No further investigation on the no EA to .02 VS the higher readings.
So then you are saying the exams are flawed because the ME’s did not address the different EA
tests. Or that their findings are flawed?
My perception is they really were not looking for Drugs or Alcohol. The victims died of Burns and they were not interested in the other statistics. Which was not a complete evaluation.
You also have spewed the Victims and Management issue for the past two years.
Have you then changed your mind on that?
Reply to Bob Powers post on March 22, 2016 at 12:14 pm
>> Bob Powers said…
>>
>> Holly’s Statements below need some clarification—-
>>
>> The 5 Doctors/ MD’s
>> Dr. Shvarts, Dr. Enstice, Dr. Poulos, Dr. Shelly, Dr. Wallis
>> The only MD who made any reference to the EA reports or conclusions
>> was Dr. Enstice.Four had None to .02 but he missed a conclusion on
>> Zuppiger who the Lab Director found .04 But Dr. Enstice only reported
>> on 1 finding of .01. No comment on the .04.
>>
>> The Laboratory Director Norman Wade did all the lab work but maid
>> no conclusion of the differences in the EA reports or the higher readings.
>>
>> This lack of conclusions is staggering coming from 5 different MD’s.
Yes, it is. Nice ’roundup’ there, Bob. Thank you.
What is also ‘staggering’ is that even with some of these VERY ‘High’ Ethyl Alcohol rates showing up… the actual reporting about the ‘decompositional state’ of each of the bodies was very ‘spotty’ as well. Only SOME of the ME’s even bothered to put a ‘value’ on what they where seeing with regards to decomposition state such as Light, Moderate, Heavy or even NONE ( if that was their conclusion ).
Only SOME of the ME’s even bothered to do that… and only for SOME of the autopsies.
So that means it’s not even really possible to go back and do a good analysis of whether the ‘Alcohol’ levels really COULD be fully and completely attributed to any kind of normal decompositional process(es).
They ( the ME’s ) screwed that up as well.
>> Bob Powers also said…
>>
>> No conclusion on McKee’s different drugs in the Blood.
Those were POWERFUL DRUGS found in his system. There should have
been ‘followup’ on those findings alone.
>> No conclusion on the 2-.09, 1- .05, and 2- .03.
>> No further investigation on the no EA to .02 VS the higher readings.
It was a ‘botch job’, and appears to have been a ‘Double Eye’ scenario.
As in… either it was ‘Incompetence’… or it was ‘Intentional’.
Robert the Second said:
Holly Neil was there and I talked with her for awhile – no, make that debated with her – on the entire YH Fire and GMHS debacle. She is still spewing ‘The Party Line’ of blaming management, the GMHS were victims, the toxicology reports are flawed due to a whole host of reasons and thus cannot be relied upon, and much more.
Holly Neill here, it looks like I got another invitation to the Jerry Springer show.
I was at the Academy banquet.
I did not meet or talk with anyone there named Robert the Second.
I did meet a guy there named Fred Schoeffler and we talked.
I did not say/spew that GM were “victims”, nor did I “blame management”.
We did discuss the toxicology reports.
I discussed my concerns that out of the five Medical Examiners who conducted the autopsies, only one of them consistently addressed the EA correlation issue. I said that I believe the EA issue should have been consistently addressed across the board by all of the examiners when EA was present.
Mr Schoeffler disagreed with me that “five” ME’s conducted the exams. I suggested he review the data again for the correct number of ME’s. Perhaps this pissed him off, it was not intentional. Just the facts.
Gee Fred, I thought we had a nice civil conversation and a little fun catching flying shirts together.
no “spewing” involved.
Have a Nice Day!
Holly Neill said, “Have a Nice Day!”
Right on…this proves Holly reads our little Jerry Springer Blog on a regular basis. Only a regular reader would have known to use that little gem from my much earlier posts as in,. “Have a Nice Day” means…Fuck You!
Well played Neill…well played. Welcome aboard. Don’t be shy and don’t be a stranger!
Gary,
That’s a cute little gem you point out, but I actually meant it literally, as in:
Have a Nice Day!
I wasn’t saying F you to anyone. But I’ll keep it in mind from now on.
OK…have it your way…wink, wink. I still think it was well played.
I actually am not a tv person so looked up what this Jerry Springer show is all about and Jerry’s topics range from bisexual affairs to rape. I do not think we have covered that on IM….yet I also noted Jerry’s guests sometimes get out of control and yell and scream at each other when watching a sample, but they are more believable than some other talk-shows. I guess I’d have to sit through a show to see if you can compare John Dougherty’s open forum to this named tv show-
I can say the rating laid with a 3-4 when aired this show business tv show JERRY SPRINGER and the hikers cannot tell you how many have come to us stating they give John Dougherty’s website a 10/thumbs up and even authors have gained good detailed information and records for their own book and we are always thanked as well as John Dougherty for having a public place to peak to this very day YEARS LATER that still discuss and document this tragedy that seem like others want the world to believe in the “victim” role versus any accountability or owning up on negligence & to make the proper changes from having this happen again and wwtktt is right on the topic were these men “ready to go” to do this small bush spotty fire that Donut confirmed and we the eyewitness saw…Also this is an online blog NOT show business…HUGE difference…these are REAL people with REAL names here and tv entails “acting”…I am not acting—no script here…but as Dr. Ted Putnam states about the hikers—we sure are characters. How we manage to balance 2 different styles of lifestyles to make the adventures and hikes a GO….it’s not easy for either one of us at moments…I love ants and he does not…Sonny will feed them his grits leftovers so it swells inside them and they die…I am the relocate gal of rattlers and skunks and wildlife and Sonny said a dead rattler is a good thing…lunch then a hat band- Sonny likes his property to be mother nature 100% and I am a blend of manicure with mother nature- If we are anywhere Sonny is such the mountain man that he knows mosquito season- keep a basil or pansey plant nearby because skeeters hate ’em. He buries his used bananas; great for the soil. BUT NUMBER ONE useful thing he ever taught me is how to look for Indian Root in your local terrain and its a lifesaver tool when you do not have any food or water in the desert as it helped me a lot. I teach Sonny the bs laws of today and he teaches me priceless tools in case I am ever without pack and just out in the terrain of the diversity elevations— I explained to Sonny the elevations over 9500 are simply just hard on my health to do and I know I can live through the surprise snow storms in shorts and I did it but it is the one I felt looking back was the most challenging because I could hardly get a breathe in-
So far without sitting and watching a show of Jerry’s and just reading Wikipedia I think this page earned a higher rating than this show business tv show—real people. real time. real names. real stories.
Thanks again WTKTT — exactly as I expected that under an hour could be a close estimate –however the men looked bushed coming up that mountain so perhaps an hour is a bit shy of what work they were able to accomplish. Also I would imagine that there are some that know exactly what amount of time they put in on that line since someone was tapping them to go to Glen Isla.
Actually when we saw the men Joy says it was about noon. So that would give them a couple hours out of our sight while we were watching the fire take off. Joy says it was 12:14 when the fire took off and took the mountain in less than 14 minutes. For sure the fireworks were on as we were watching from the two track at that time. Nothing an army could do against what we were witnessing, except stay out of the danger zone.
At that time it was moving toward Peeples Valley and unless you knew weather you would never think it could reverse so quickly. It was strong going toward Peeples Valley even though it was headed mostly in a down hill direction. Of course it was violent when reversed since it was now headed up hill with winds that were swaying the trees as you see in the recent videos on Shrine Road and the one where they were using drip torches as well–not yet surfaced but certainly someone has it.
Reply to Charlie ( Sonny ) post on
March 21, 2016 at 9:46 pm
>> Charlie ( Sonny ) said…
>>
>> The men looked bushed coming up that mountain
>> so perhaps an hour is a bit shy of what work they
>> were able to accomplish.
Those ‘line building’ estimates ( in different fuel types ) in even the NWCG Field guides can never be considered ‘exact’ because there are many. many variables involved…
…but no matter how you cut it ( pun intended )… accomplishing only 1 or 1.75 hours worth of work when you are actually in the same location for upwards of 6 (SIX) full hours means something was ‘wrong’.
I think the ‘something wrong’ was that these men were either absolutely sleep-deprived, exhausted or hung over… or some combination of all three.
That very morning… on their own ‘ready’ board… no one was even reporting their ‘readiness’ state at more than 60 or 70 percent… except for Brendan McDonough… who wrote his ‘ready state’ down as “HELL YEA!”.
Brendan would then, apparently, be the first one to crap out that day in the 108 degree heat.
Eric Marsh should have UTF’ed that assignment on Saturday night.
He had already RELEASED his crew to the winds at 7:30 PM on Saturday night ( even though their timesheets still say they were ‘on the clock’ until 10:30 PM ) with the full expectation that they now had their regular TWO FULL DAYS OFF ( Sundays and Mondays ).
There has never been a full and accurate ‘accounting’ of exactly when ALL of those 20 men were actually, finally notified they were being RECALLED from their “TWO days off” and were expected to report to Station 7 at 4:30 AM… or whether ALL of those 20 men were within the proper ‘rest’ guidelines before heading off to die in Yarnell.
Some of them might have only had a few hours of sleep… if any at all… and some of them *might* have been truly ‘hungover’ as they geared up and hit the line on Sunday morning.
I should be talking to Ted soon again. I forgot to ask him what time he estimates the GMHS crew would have cut the line they did cut. He located it for us, then actually walked it all the way down to the end with Wayne Niel. Both are experts on line making and can give a very close estimate of the time it would have taken them to cut that line since they were both there on site.
Bob Powers and WTKTT gave us some important information on the human factor situation. That much blood alcohol means the fellows were really hung over and maybe taking a shot or two to take a little hair off the dog. Heat exhaustion had to be another thing with that type clothing, heavy pack, and swinging saws and dragging brush in that temperature. Joy had her boots off and was near heat exhausted even when we left the scene. I had to urge Joy more than once by telling her those were body bags they were heliocoptering out. They were bladder bags and did look like body bags. Then I too got some exhaustion and felt it but pressed on and now very happy we did. We did not know about that back burn on Shrine Rd. until after the fact. So even without pack, Joy and I struggled against the heat that day. Consider we had been regularly hiking and even a few days before had hiked from Prescott DMV to Wilhoit–,meaning we were OK to hike. Then add to the fact that they had no rest period, expected a couple days off and when your boss changes that agenda, a person’s attitude drops to a low point. Those that work hard want to play hard once they get a day or two off. But they knew they must strictly obey orders so off they went and with weakened bodies, mental status, etc. their powers to resist a bad move were compromised to a great extent. Sadly due to all these adverse physical and mental conditions they acquiesced to their Greek God Steed, and perhaps he was somewhat compromised and gave in to Mr. Marsh. Mr. Marsh however must have also been touched by the heat since he also obeyed the chain of command above. It might have taken a MacArthur to have not caved in on those conditions.
Since then Donut has been closed mouth–and others keep trying to paint a different picture than evidence clearly shows. Spending thousands on memorials, trail to nowhere that will scantly be used, restricting state land and access to the incident site, and deeding it to survivors of the 19 accomplishes nothing to the real problem here. Only truth will suffice here.
We certainly lost 19 strong wild land fire fighting men. But we have also lost more than 84 individuals in this small town of 645. That is 13% of the population gone since the fire. Lets put out a few million dollars for the loved ones there since that is more than 4 times the deaths of the 19. They deserve a couple sections around here set aside for their relatives as well. But it was the silent killer of retardant that killed these old folks. But it was no fault of their own–like the 17 they got dumped on. They are dead now. Maybe I know what dead is since I was dead for quite a time but brought back. I was A.D.N.R. person–what I have on my records. They did anyway and here I am to continue a while. I think I might be the 85th and now a zombie of sorts since I have lost all lung power since the dumping of that 230,000 gallons of retardant nearby. I can say dying was not bad at all, and in some ways I wonder why they brought me back seeing that death is so peaceful. Maybe I wanted to be with my son Ted who did die and is buried due to an ordeal similar in nature to the cause of the deaths of those 17. People above him who did not look consider his life valuable enough to take care everything was in order and safe for him to do his job. The system that kills 17 fine young men needs a thorough going through–even a clean out and shaking of the tree to find and kill the fungi. No amount of money or memorial will replace those lives.
Gary.
I cannot see Holly coming to this site unless someone brought it to her attention.
I have not been in touch with Holly in 2016 but I know her focus is to keep rumors from stirring with certain areas.
She would not be a lady who would say have a nice day with such meaning…she is not like that.
So my question was an ol commenter on here use to say RTS was Fred…and I remembered not paying it much mind…who cares if a person has a handle vs real name…I am good with it so RTS you keep being you and I think you are important to this whole thing…I could not comprehend why it matters to connect certain dots as long as we realize and learn about Fred and his experiences and background…. Oh side note…anything new on baker canyonwoodland fire?
Tomorrow is major concerns with woodland fires…north… Northeast…swestern…strong winds tomorrow…
I lost my thought typing on this phone of his…let me send and maybe see what it was I was writing…
Joy…as I have said before, you really are a priceless and very naive and gullible person. NEILL was clearly playin’ off the old joke here on this thread of “Have a Nice Day.” Read the context she used it in. She was clearly not intending to tell RTS or Fred to have a nice day.
NEILL was telling him to “Have a NIce Day” in the same way I said weeks or months ago police departments all across the country forbid their officer by policy from telling motorists they just gave a citation to and often had words with to…”Have a Nice Day” as they walk away which does NOT mean have a nice day.
You need to grow up just a little bit if you are going to run with the big dogs, otherwise, you should stay on the porch.
And once again, NEILL”S use of the classic “Have a Nice Day” was well played. NEILL showed she can run with the big dogs, appreciate her humor for what it is. Give credit where credit is due.
NEILL burned RTS while she outed him from the closet as pay back for what he said about their exchange at the training. NEILL is not a nice person, or at least she is not nice all of the time. I like that. Did RTS deserve it? That doesn’t matter in this context. I am not the judge of that issue, I am only the judge of how she played the exchange between the two. Point…NEILL!
And I am being a jerk, because I keep capitalizing NEILL’S name, just like she did when she came back on me like a tornado because I crossed her, when she told me…my name is NEILL.
Try to keep up Joy. There is a lot of subtext going on here on this thread Joy, and if you can’t read it, you miss out on so much!
Actually…that was probably a very unfair statement I made regarding how nice NEILL really is. I have no doubt that she is always nice to nice people who don’t cross her.
BUT…if you offend NEILL like RTS and I both did, watch out, she bites back.
And there is nothing wrong with that. People who either don’t, or can’t bite back, become everyone’s bitches (non-gender specific).
still not on the fence or porch here on this one because in the times I have spoke with Holly- I really feel she did not mean it like you thought and again I do think someone drew her here to the site and is not an avid person to visit here unless someone drew her here and again she is a strong woman to put up with firefighters on the line like she has and she was not calling RTS out but stating the facts and what happened that day from her position was all. I would not perceive her to be ill-mannered in such a way so I remain on the side line thinking my own thoughts in my own pretty little world which aint part of the dog eat dog BIG world.
You don’t think that NEILL saying “I did not meet or talk with anyone there named Robert the Second.
I did meet a guy there named Fred Schoeffler and we talked.”
You don’t think that was outing anybody from the closet after almost three years of that charade? Wake up and smell Sonny’s Cowboy Coffee Joy. Or better yet, take a big swig of it.
That fit right smack into the middle of payback is a bitch (non-gender specific). Ouch.
Really nice people don’t play the payback game.
Gary- I drink coffee…yet I have been known to with a muddy buddy use coffee as a scrub because it has several benefits that include: exfoliating and anti-inflammatory properties, temporary reduction of cellulite, improved circulation, reduced eye puffiness, and smooth skin.
Sonny’s coffee might get me wired…he drinks it stout like his beer.
I meant I DON’T drink coffee
also just because someone comes on here or does not come on here does not define anything and I accept Holly came here to explain her moment that day versus a discussion of people assuming or guessing—now we know—she wrote with clarity and detail not like Dale1— so move on is my way of looking at it. And I don’t care if RTS ends up being Fred — it is irrelevant from my standpoint. At least RTS comes here and engages and participates and does not do one liners and pop-ins…my hats off to RTS for his continued participation. Sonny has spoken some stuff not so appropriate things over time but I don’t pay it much mind…he tries to state his perception which is not always another’s’ way of thinking INCLUDING me…he at times from my standpoint has no right to say stuff he does but then looking back count how many times people called Sonny a hero and me not (too many times) and all “believe” he came back for me and saved my life and I did not have sense enough…he took the day’s events and made it fit his way of thinking which to me is similar to the SAIR because the time of the day we left area I could of went my way because I knew the area and knew I could get back but Sonny was newer to the area so he went to survival mode and thought less terrain more boulders is the only way to go…a longer steeper way…which by the way is the current GMHS memorial trail is being constructed and it can be confirmed with Morgan Loew cbs reporter the only person who cared which way we came out that horrific afternoon. The memorial board has no idea they made our trail and honor the hikers with their trail for the 19-
quite ironic-
Joy,
<>
“Wilma’s husband can help bring clarity to topic…he was there”
<>
“Wilmaaaaaaa….”
YES FRED.
<>
http://wildlandfireleadership.blogspot.com/2014/07/a-legacy-of-leaders-beyond-south-canyon.html
http://universityofhardknocks.academia.edu/FredSchoeffler
<>
“So my question was an ol commenter on here use to say RTS was Fred…and I remembered not paying it much mind…who cares if a person has a handle vs real name…I am good with it so RTS you keep being you and I think you are important to this whole thing…I could not comprehend why it matters to connect certain dots as long as we realize and learn about Fred and his experiences and background….”
<>
“And I don’t care if RTS ends up being Fred — it is irrelevant from my standpoint.”
You really don’t have any idea if RTS is Fred? “ …ends up being Fred…” I would have just left it alone if you had ‘posting remorse’ with pointing him out and everything.
One more piece of unsolicited advice for you to take it or leave it. After praising Dale1 for posting and encouraging him by telling him not to worry about people bashing his writing style, I recommend against turning around and criticizing his writing style. It just seems inconsistent.
Woodsman
Woodsman said: You really don’t have any idea if RTS is Fred? “ …ends up being Fred…” I would have just left it alone if you had ‘posting remorse’ with pointing him out and everything.
MY REPLY: Actually I was not pointing him out if anyone read I was piecing the puzzle when certain people would not share it all and only thing there I can point out is EN said long who was who so I was not saying anything new but with recent posts it began to be obvious and like I said I do not care and if people have pointed things out to me about me that should never be in a public way- why can’t I be free to share the obvious and others can perceive I was pointing out but I was just using my Nancy Drew mentality to who was this person at the academy but since then behind the scenes recent it was confirmed but I had already said what I did…remorse?…I do not comprehend why I would have remorse for trying to figure out who the person was- others were trying to figure it out…and it looks like before Holly came here I already threw out my guesses…so she just confirmed it as well as another…why does it matter if they are one in the same or not…it don’t…not to me…but I do not have remorse for making my guesses…
I mean…you may not watch TV but didn’t you see the movie “Get Hard” with Will Farrell and Kevin Hart?
And please remember…NEILL, is the one who keeps calling our thread the “Jerry Springer Show.” That is the same thing she called our good faith effort to discover all of the facts surrounding the death of the crew on the YHF several months ago. Now how nice is that?
After doesn’t NEILL and Amanda Marsh and their wildland firefighter foundation and all of us want the same thing? A better tomorrow for all wildland firefighters by recognizing, accepting and correcting the mistakes of the past?
Agreed to that Gary: Holly and Elizabeth, et. al. (a few in their corner) are on the same page with each other.
case proven.
Again Sonny and his perception is off base and who feeds his views is beyond me…but than again this Sonny has been married six times and probably will never GET or CONNECT to the female energy…
I am not gonna engage. I think it was as simple as I stated-
how else could Holly have come here and said it-
She said she did not meet a Robert the Second and then went on to explain who she did meet…she does not come here and to me it was not calling a person out—
You and Sonny can have your big world of thinking,,,
No excuse for six wives here. They were good marriages while they lasted–the life of a tramp miner, logger and outdoor living isn’t much happiness for a lady. But you could say I have, like the wild land fire fighter that fought 6 fires, at least a bit of experience. Joy has come the closest to any with her idea that she wanted to pioneer Arizona. She really did with me when we lived in a cave eight months, tried and walked deserts and mountains, even slept in the snow near Show Low–things only a wild land fire fighter could understand.
Yep for a cookie cutter woman and kid life on the streets she does love the outdoors, animals, and finding out about why someone could die. She is hard headed and not much to admit her mistakes–but I won’t hold it against her. She can use chop sticks–something I don’t want to learn.
But I still think the clear and free boulders are the safest route when there is too much manzanita and brush otherwise. Admittedly it helps to be an old goat to get through them–but Willis ought to know they are must easier to transverse than thick manzanita and much safer if you have plenty of them around you and even some you can get under. Those wild land fire fighters, if they be like Eric Marsh was, can hop them and make it look easy.
This site is where people come to see what gives. No closed mouth Donuts here–people tell all here because they want the facts out. There is too much at stake to sweep this thing under a rug.
Reply to Holly Neill post on March 21, 2016 at 1:45 pm
>> Holly Neill said…
>>
>> Holly Neill here, it looks like I got another invitation to the Jerry Springer show.
There’s no one posting anything on this PUBLIC forum using that particular name.
>> Holly Neill also said…
>>
>> I was at the Academy banquet.
Do you know anything about the circumstances and/or details surrounding someone being asked to LEAVE this year’s Academy because Amanda Marsh took offense at something this person was saying in one of the Academy’s accredited classes?
>> Holy Neill said…
>>
>> We did discuss the toxicology reports.
>>
>> I discussed my concerns that out of the five Medical Examiners who
>> conducted the autopsies, only one of them consistently addressed
>> the EA correlation issue.
For anyone reading along… Holly’s ‘EA’ acronym stands for “Ethyl Alcohol’.
>> Holly Neill also said…
>>
>> I said that I believe the EA issue should have been consistently addressed
>> across the board by all of the examiners when EA was present.
I agree. In that regard… the autopsies and the toxicology tests were a ‘botch job’.
Very unfortunate, given that the Medical Examiners must have been fully aware they were participating in a ‘historic’ event that was already garnering the World’s attention… and that the likelihood of some level of ‘impaired judgement’ was still, on July 2, 2013, very much a possible causal factor.
But we still DO know the following…
1. The timesheets for the entire Granite Mountain crew were ‘padded’ even on the day before they would die. The timesheets had them ALL still working the ‘Mount Josh’ fire until 10:30 PM on Saturday, June 29, 2013… but they were all either ‘home for dinner’ or already ‘out drinking’ by 7:30 PM that evening.
2. The Granite Mountain Hotshots had been RELEASED when they all returned back to Prescott circa 7:30 PM. They ‘scattered to the winds’ under the full impression that they were now having TWO full days OFF… and they all proceeded to start doing whatever Hotshots do when they believe they are OFF the next day.
3. Eric Marsh accepted the Yarnell Hill Fire assignment circa 8:00 PM while he, himself, was having dinner at the Prescott Brewing Company. He called Jesse Steed… who was ( by then ) drinking beer on his own back porch and Jesse Steed then ‘called around’ to the Squad Bosses informing them that they were no longer going to have the next day OFF.
4. This was now a RECALL situation. Hotshots being RECALLED some hours after they had all begun doing what Hotshots do when they think they have a day off the next day. What SHOULD have happened is that, before Eric Marsh accepted the Sunday assignment, an attempt SHOULD have been made to find out where the men all were, what they were already doing, and if some of them had ( perhaps ) already gotten themselves into a condition that would render them basically ‘unfit for duty’ the next day. That’s not how it went down. Eric Marsh ‘accepted’ the assignment before knowing if a full RECALL of the crew was even going to be possible.
5. The best indicator of what condition the crew was really in that next day still comes from the physical evidence of them not really accomplishing much all day in the location where they were assigned to ‘build line’. Even the Arizona Forestry SAIT’s best estimate at actual ‘line constructed’ by a contingent of 19 Type 1 Hotshots working in the same spot for upwards of 6 ( SIX ) hours is no more than somewhere between 150 to 250 yards of ‘completed line work’. That, itself, indicates a pretty high level of ‘exhaustion’ or other impairment. See page ‘ii’ of the SAIR. The ‘green line’ is labelled ‘completed handline’.
BTW: Good to hear from you again. Don’t be such a stranger.
** INDICATIONS OF HOW LITTLE WORK GM ACTUALLY
** ACCOMPLISHED ALL DAY ON JUNE 30, 2013…
PDF page 38
Wildland Fire Associates ( for ADOSH )
Granite Mountain IHC Entrapment and Burnover Investigation
——————————————————————————–
DIVSA ( Eric Marsh ) did not feel that GMIHC ( Granite Mountain Hotshots ) needed help from BRIHC ( Blue Ridge Hotshots ).
However, GMIHC made little progress ( all day ) in establishing an anchor point.
Once the SEAT drops had extinguished the test fire that GMIHC was igniting, the crew tried to build direct handline, which subsequently failed. We found no evidence that DIVS A notified Planning OSC that the tactic of going direct had failed. Such a notification should trigger a reassessment of both strategy and tactics.
——————————————————————————-
From Blue Ridge Assistant Superintendent Trueheart Brown’s typed Unit Log…
——————————————————————————-
11:55 AM – 12:25 PM – Face to face meeting with Marsh/Steed
We tied in ( with Marsh and Steed up at the anchor point ).
I notice they have about 100 yards of line secured. We talk
to them about the situation and comments are made about
how neither crew received a briefing.
——————————————————————————-
** EXPECTED LINE BUILDING RATES…
The NWCG Wildland Fire Incident Management Field Guide, PMS-210…
http://www.nwcg.gov/sites/default/files/products/pms210.pdf
From PDF page 121 of the
NWCG Wildland Fire Incident Management Field Guide…
——————————————————————————–
PRODUCTION TABLES
Sustained Line Production Rates of 20-Person Crews in Feet per Hour.
Number outside parentheses represents the expected rate of production.
Numbers in parentheses are possible low/high ranges for line production.
Fire Behavior Fuel Model, Type I Direct
Chaparral 436 ( 330-528 ) feet per hour.
——————————————————————————–
NOTE: Of all the listed ‘Fuel Models’ in the NWCG production
rate table, the ‘Chaparral Fuel Model’ already has the SLOWEST
expected rate of hourly line production.
——————————————————————————–
436 feet ( per hour ) equals 145.33 yards ( per hour ).
6 hours times 436 feet per hour = 2,616 feet ( 872.00 yards ).
5 hours times 436 feet per hour = 2,180 feet ( 726.66 yards ).
4 hours times 436 feet per hour = 1,744 feet ( 581.00 yards ).
3 hours times 436 feet per hour = 1,308 feet ( 436.00 yards ).
2 hours times 436 feet per hour = 872 feet ( 290.66 yards ).
1.75 hours times 436 feet per hour = 763 feet ( 254.33 yards ).
1.50 hours times 436 feet per hour = 654 feet ( 218 yards ).
1 hour times 436 feet per hour = 436 feet ( 145.33 yards ).
The entire Granite Mountain Crew was ‘in place’ at the anchor area from approximately 9:30 AM until their ‘tools up’ moment circa 3:30 PM. That is a total time of 6 (SIX) hours ‘working’ at that location ( minus an uknown period of time for ‘lunch’ ).
But the amount of ‘completed handline’ as reported by even the SAIT investigators, after extensive examination of the area, was only in the 150 to 250 yard range.
At the ‘expected rate’ for line building in that fuel type, that represents only 1 to 1.75 hours of actual (productive) work.
The following testimony doesn’t really add to the ‘proof’ that Granite Mountain never really accomplished much real ‘work’ the whole day up on that high ridge… but it *might* indicate WHY they didn’t.
Air Attack Bravo 3 ( Rusty Warbis and Paul Lenmark ) testified that shortly after they arrived in Yarnell at almost exactly NOON, and, after working with Darrell Willis ( who was still trying in vain to protect that Double Bar-A-Ranch ), they took their first ‘turn around the fire’ to size the situation up for themselves.
While they were ‘sizing up the situation’ for themselves from the air… they were convinced ( even as early as 12:45 PM ) that the Granite Mountain Hotshots were already ‘out of the game’ up there on that ridge based on how the fire had progressed since that morning… and they were so sure that GM was ‘out of the game’ that they also believed they were simply ‘staged’ up there on the ridge and waiting for someone to give them another assignment.
They also testified that they ‘checked’ with DIVSA Eric Marsh himself around that time ( 12:45 PM or so ) and that even Eric Marsh ALREADY knew that the whole ‘anchor and flank’ thing that Granite Mountain had been sent up there to do that morning just wasn’t going to work…
But there they ( Granite Mountain ) sat… for the rest of the afternoon… apparently still plunking along on what even Eric Marsh seemed to know as early as 12:45 PM was a ‘useless assignment’.
Here is exactly what they said to the ADOSH investigators…
Q = Barry Hicks, ADOSH investigator
A = Rusty Warbis ( In Air Attack ‘Bravo 3’ )
A1 = Paul Lenmark ( In Air Attack ‘Bravo 3’ )
_____________________________________________________
Q: Yeah – yeah. Ah, so did you all ever talk to Division Alpha in terms of what
their – what their plan was or, ah, knowing that they’re pretty much outta the
game up there at this point in time. Did you have any conversation with ‘em?
A or A1: Um, I had contact with those divisions. I was unaware that th- th- th- that Alpha was the hotshot superintendent. Um, my understanding was that Alpha was that rim on the other side – the west side…
Q: Okay.
A or A1: …and Alpha, to me, was – with the other things that were going on – head, um, and the right flank. To me, Alpha was outta the game.
Q: Yeah, okay.
A or A1: Didn’t you touch base with them on that side just to make sure to see how far along they were, and they weren’t…
A or A1: They weren’t…
A or A1: …and they were – they were coveyed back.
A or A1: Yeah, yep.
Q: So some time that morning, they had – they had figured out they were not gonna be able to anchor and flank it?
A or A1: Yep.
_____________________________________________________
WTKTT gave us 436 ft. per hour to cut line in manzanita. I would guess that approximates the type of brush that was encountered in the death basin above Helm’s. View Joy’s photos of brush we encountered that day right about where the GMHS deployed. That translates to a bit over 145 yards. That is almost exactly what you will measure from the two track to where they ended their line that morning of June 30, 2013.
But it also gives us an idea that there is no running in that type brush. Estimates I hear of 600 yards of working a crew through such entanglement have to be much less, but still if they were able to cut their way through in that heat and with their depleted condition it would have taken another four hours to get a line just to Helms from the deployment site. It give one an idea of how difficult it was to get through. Willis was right, ordinary people can’t easily get through that manzanita overgrowth. But how much faster can 18 make their way through? I would guess the 600 yards would cost 30 minutes to an hour under the conditions of the vegetation density. I do believe one person can navigate much faster than 18 and we proved that with Joy and I.
I think if I were a boss, instead of running up and down some road or trail I would test the men’s meddle to see what they could do in a mile or so of that shit. Then we would know what escape times might amount to per 100 yards distance. There was a hundred yards to the boulders on the north and about 70 on the south rim as I remember. That seems like practical things to do for a team of men so they would know their alternatives if they had failed to follow safety regulations and got caught in a similar situation. That actually can happen again around this area and even up toward Flagstaff. There are many manzanita traps in this part of high desert Arizona.
Sonny… I left a longer ‘Reply’ to this up above as the following new parent comment… ( Just click this link to ‘jump’ up to it )…
http://www.investigativemedia.com/please-begin-yarnell-hill-fire-chapter-xix-here/#comment-329644
And as long as I am spewing out my random thoughts on this thread today when I should be Jeeping, except I broke my fucking Jeep…again, I will add something I forgot about the other day when I was writing about the relationship between law enforcement training and what happened to the crew.
I believe this concept was introduced by the “father” of modern hand gun combat shooting techniques and I added some of my own thoughts for flourish.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jeff_Cooper
Fighters and winners think the world is divided up into two different kinds of people, the Sheep and the Wolves or Hammers and Nails. Most of YOU people are sheep…or nails. And if you are a Wolf or a Hammer, then everyone else looks like a Sheep or a Nail to you.
But there is a third kind of person. And that is what I am….a Sheepdog. Sheepdogs run towards the smoke or the sound of gunfire when everyone else is running away.
Most of YOU people spend you days in condition WHITE because that is your happy place. You think the world if full of other people just like you…bleating sheep. And so you are usually really surprised and unprepared on the day you finally meet a Wolf.
Law Enforcement Officers, Firefighters (both WF and Structural) at least those who want to live, spend their days living under condition ORANGE with full Situational Awareness because that is their happy place. Sheep think these people are paranoid.
Factoid: While I was living and working in and around Farmington, New Mexico, I would often see the word “sheep” written and/or hear it used in sentences as Sheeps, as in, “Sheeps in Road!” This is because the word sheep can be used to mean either a singular or multiple in English and apparently does not translate well with our Navajo brethren.
Another Factoid: You should watch the movie “Windtalkers”, which is about the Navajo Code Talkers of WWII with an audience that is mostly Navajo for a real cultural experience. Hint…they laugh at different places than white people do, but forgive me, once again…I digress.
When law enforcement officers or firefighters get down to taking care of business…they easily (hopefully) transition from condition ORANGE to condition RED, which is where they need to be in the combat mode…if they want to survive.
That is when all of their previous training kicks into gear and becomes a matter of life and death because they are in the middle of a huge adrenaline dump. They experience auditory exclusion, tunnel vision, and the loss of fine motor skills as their brain directs their heart to stop sending blood to their extremities (try pulling the tab on a WF Death Shroud (c) under those conditions, your fucking fingers don’t work anymore) because your heart is conserving all of its blood for your major organs to enable you to fight to the death or flee for your life while your body relieves itself to dispose of unwanted waste.
However, when things go really go to shit (no pun intended) in a big way…some law enforcement officers and firefighters can also easily slip from condition RED into condition BLACK. That is what happened to the crew. They fatally lost their ability to process new information in REAL time…what about that don’t YOU fucking SHEEPS get? The crew’s training FAILED them when they needed it the most; it addition to a bunch of other things we have talked about here on this thread.
Well…I fucked that up, its been too many years. I am going to quit posting for awhile and go see if I can find somebody to weld my Jeep back together again. Maybe my Jeeping buddy is right? Maybe I should slow down?
Condition White: Where the Sheeps live.
Condition Yellow: Where Fire and LE live (and military in addition to some others).
Condition Orange: Where you go when you see, hear or feel something that is not right. In other words, you perceive a threat and you prepare to engage the threat.
Condition Red: Where you go (the mode) in order to survive in a full on combat situation.
Condition Black; When you look into the abyss and it looks back.
Gary,
Hope you didn’t rip your steering box off your frame – seen that before. Not fun.
Woodsman
Nope…ripped the shock mount off the rear axle and bent the hell out of a very expensive shock. I just need a new shock bracket welded to the axle and a new very expensive shock, that will have to of course be ordered from some place a long ways away from the bad ass trails of Moab.
Moab as in Bum Fuck Egypt did you even find a Garage or just some Farmer being a Mechanic in the winter???????
Well…that place has EXPLODED since the last time you were here Bob. They are expecting more than 50,000 people and more than 5000 Jeeps just for the Jeep Safari Week. I am not attending because crowds make me nervous, especially crowded Jeep Trails. But they are pouring into town like you have never seen before.
I have more than $25,000 in upgrades to my Jeep and it looks like something a soccer mom should be driving compared to most of these rigs…and they are mostly NEW rigs. I don’t know what these people do for a living, but they don’t work for Uncle Sam and never did, as a Civil Servant anyway…defense contractor, maybe.
There are at least six new huge chain motels since I was here two years ago and several more under construction. The time for you and I to make a killing on Moab real estate has done come and went, which is the story of my life. Too little…too late.
Just a joke Severial of my Motor cross and Razor friends and Family go down there I have never been but I have herd it gets crowded for Spring break.
Well…then I will let you in on another little secret. Moab may still be the center of the Jeeping universe, but UTV’s have literally taken over.
It is all Polaris Razor’s in particular, almost everywhere you look and go. There is some Motor Cross and some ATV’s but nothing like it is for Razors.
It is probably too late for you and I too make a killing in Polaris stock as well. That is almost all there is for rent anymore there on the street.
Utah lets those things run up and down the streets of Moab just as long as they are on their way to a trail….somewhere. Moab has officially gone Razor crazy.
Too bad your jeep isn’t near Gary. I have a fine miller welder and did take a year and half training in welding after a mine cave in ended that career. And Mark my son welded ships in Seattle for ten years before getting a nursing degree. So either one of us could glue that jeep back together pretty well.
Seems Steed saw code red but went forward with a black out of sensibilities. The real code black had to be when they saw that the fire was headed back their way. They used flimsy fire blankets instead of opting for the boulders. Those blankets were light enough to carry into the boulders to save having to cut and pile brush around your area. I wonder if any wanted to run to the boulders and if the main believers in blankets would have tackled them. I remember the story of Pulaski pulling out his pistol to keep men in their cave. In that case to run would have killed them despite the smoke and heat in the cave. Is that attitude of bosses in the wild land fire fighting positions prevalent? Here we saw the opposite happen where the men were killed by the bosses bad decision. It seems if you get a wild land fire fighter boss you better get one that looks out for you more than glory. It was after all a nice thought to try to save structures–but at high risk to the young ones?
Yes I think sometimes people are brutal with the truth. But smoothing over a disaster that killed 19 will never explain or change what killed those 19 wild land fire fighters.
So You Want To Be A Hotshot
Perhaps you should really know what a hotshot crew does. This statement is prepared for your study and serious consideration to purposely discourage those who might be misinformed or those better equipped both mentally and physically to apply for less demanding, but equally important work with the Forest Service. We do have many jobs that pay the same and are equally challenging, equally rewarding.
The very tern “hotshots” means many things to many people. To those of us who recruit, train and work with hotshots, the job is anything but glamorous. From experience we know that fighting fire is about 90 percent physical for the Hotshot crew. The nature of the work is demanding. Only those of high strength, agility, coordination and stamina can cope with the sustained work required of the average hotshot.
As a Hotshot, you will be required to not only produce physically, but to live together, eat together, and sleep together in close, crowded conditions. Complete compatibility is in itself a difficult challenge.
You must take orders, and carry those orders out at all times, day after day.
The emotional strain is extreme, and the competitive pressure of your peer group is always present.
For a crew is only as good as its weakest member.
When not on fire duty, you will be required to engage in daily structured physical fitness training that consists of a minimum 2 – 3 mile run, coordinated exercises, push-ups, sit-ups, pull-ups, rope climbs squat thrusts, abdominal stretching and the obstacle course.
The rest of your day will be like every other day. Hard labor using hand tools ( axe, shovel, saw ) and usually piling brush, digging holes, picking up garbage, cleaning toilets, sharpening tools, and similar tasks. You will be expected to be ready at all times to answer fire calls on the District, Forest, or out of Region. This requires you to be on 24 hour alert.
On the fire line the hothshot crews are singled out for the hazardous, difficult assignments. It is normal for Hotshots to be on shift 32 hours before relief is available. Succeeding shifts of 14-18 hours are normal. You will normally be “spiked” out away from the main fire camp, thirsty, hungry and sleeping on rocky ground, too often without proper sleeping bags. You’ll be filthy, exhausted, underfed and hurting. There will be no privacy, no sanitation, no shelter, no laundry and no doctors, however first aid is available.
The Hotshot crew is so named because of the need for tough, knowledgeable, hard individuals who can be sent ahead of the main contingent of ordinary labor crews and independently drive holding lines around critical segments of the fire, hold their lines and survive. You will be required to pack heavy loads up and down extremely mountainous terrain ( hose packs of 70 pounds ), fell large trees with either power saws or cross-cut saws, buck trees into shorter lengths, haul blocks of logs, remove dead/down and brush out of the fires path, dig ( 18 inches to 1 feet ) fireline to mineral soil, construct trenches, haul hose, pack heavy portable pumps and tanks, and burn-out your line before the fire gets there, and then start extinguishing spot fires over your line. That’s not the end of it. The dirty work of mop-up begins. Digging and scraping all hot spots out and extinguishing the heat source. Other features of the job are living in and breathing smoke for days, contending with poison oak, poison ivy, poison sumac, cactus, thorns, ticks, gnats, flies, snakes, scorpions, spiders, rolling rocks and falling trees and debris. It’s dirty, hot, dusty and freezing cold.
Obviously we’re looking for superior individuals to fill out hotshot crews.
If you can live and excel with the job I’ve described then we want you.
We care not about your sex, color, race or religion.
But if for any reason you cannot live up to these standards, then I encourage you to do yourself and the rest of the crew a favor and apply for other work.
Author: Unknown.
This letter was written by Coconino National Forest Fire Management Officer Bill Buck in 1976 and it was sent to everyone who applied to be a hotshot on the Coconino.
This is what I say about this letter on my website, which apparently no one ever reads.
http://ourfiregods.com/happyjackhotshots.html
For the past few decades, this letter
has it means to be a hotshot, and to
work on what is known an Interagency
Hotshot Crew (IHC).
For several decades, these crews where
known as Interregional Hotshot
Crews, and the United States Forest
Service (USFS) was the only agency
that employed such crews.
The original typewritten letter was sent
to all returning Hotshots, and all of
those who applied to be Hotshots, for
the USFS, Coconino National Forest –
Region 3, in 1976, and only that year.
It was written by Bill Buck, Fire
Control Officer, Coconino National
Forest, although Bill’s ever-present
assistant, Steve Servis, probably
contributed to it. Even though
Wildland Firefighting history has
recorded the author as “Unknown.”
And after I received it, I was almost
too afraid to show up for work, even
though it was my second year on a
Coconino N.F. Hotshot Crew, but I
needed the job. Then I got my second
wind and I spent another 9 years on a
hotshot crew, 7 years as a hotshot
crew boss.
I believe the reason Bill wrote the letter (the rumor mill and personnel and the EEOC officer on the Coconino agreed with me because the letter was never ever sent out to anyone ever again) is because there was an effort being made to actively recruit women on Coconino Hotshot crews that very year and this letter was sent out to deliberately discourage any woman from even wanting to try and make it on any of the crews.
After Bill got shot down for writing this letter he instituted a “pack test” that had to be passed by all hotshots on the Coconino beginning in 1976 in addition to the step test and 1.5 mile run under 11 minutes that was NOT adjusted for altitude as the USFS the manual required
The pack test required every hotshot and hotshot candidate to run two miles with a 60 pound pack on in less than 22 minutes at 7,400 feet above sea level. Our pack was a 60 pound sack of cement strapped to a military plywood pack frame ammunition carrier with cotton shoulder straps that had some padding duck taped to them.
We ran up the highway dodging logging trucks and lookie loo flat landers driving RV’s that were too big for them or the highway to handle. The highway was uphill in one direction which was even worse coming back down because you slow your speed without tearing out your knees to keep from falling forward face down on the asphalt.
This kept all women off all Mighty Coke crews until 1980 when I hired the first one on my crew. The pack test had been suspended that same year by someone at the Forest Supervisor’s Office – Praise The Lord!
FINALLY…a concrete contribution that I can make to this thread that is not open for debate or conjecture although I am not sure what it has to do with the death of the crew.
I have posted a copy of the original type written letter here for historical purposes.
http://ourfiregods.com/reserved3.html
The guys who wanted to set records (and there were some amazing times over the years) came over the finish line with blood streaming down their backs and chests. I just concentrated on making it under 22 minutes in keeping with my 71 got me a badge and a gun attitude towards life. Let others set AND break all of the records.
If you read the letter in this context, you will see that it was written to discourage women and men with manginations from trying to be hotshots on the Mighty Coconino!
See…this proves it. I am not to blame for the man I became, I was raised from an impressionable age (20) to be a product of the Mighty Coconino.
Whoops…misspelled “mangina.”
Gary,
I just thought ‘manginations’ meant ‘men with imaginary vaginas.’ Either way, I get your point!!
Woodsman
Thank you, Gary.
The ‘context’ and ‘how it relates’ to Yarnell comes out of the discussion below that was a ‘revisit’ of whether or not Jesse Steed’s military background, and (perhaps) an ingrained tendency to ‘obey orders’ really was ( or wasn’t ) a significant causal factor for what happened in Yarnell on June 30, 2013.
Consensus: Maybe. Maybe not.
Jesse Steed SHOULD have kept those men were they were.
If the credible accounts of the ‘argument’ are true… then he, himself, was telling Marsh that he considered it a ‘dangerous’ move… and it was something he didn’t want to do.
But ( as we all know )… he ended up consenting to do it, anyway.
So whether that ‘consent’ was coming out of pure ‘job security’ concerns ( on his part ), or some ingrained military way of thinking ( or some combination of BOTH ) remains part of the debate.
So it was really just this part that was ‘relevant’ to the discussion below… and that these were the exact ‘words’ being displayed in that actual ‘memorial’ to the GM Hotshots that appeared at the Ranch House Restaurant right after the tragedy…
“You must take orders, and carry those orders out at all times, day after day.”
No ‘ifs’, ‘ands’ or ‘buts’ there.
It’s also pretty clear that all of the ‘text’ that someone printed out and put under-glass for the PUBLIC to be reading at that memorial was part of some kind of ‘brochure’ that the Prescott Fire Department already had that they WOULD be ‘handing out’ to applicants for jobs with Granite Mountain.
The whole blurb starts with a short explanation of the history of Granite Mountain… and then someone ‘inserted’ that now-famous Bill Buck letter.
If that’s really what that whole thing is there, under-glass at that ‘memorial’… then it’s also a certainty that both Prescott Wildland Divison Chief *and* Eric Marsh had APPROVED all that as the ‘info packet’ to be sent out to potential GM job applicants.
Just more insight into the ‘culture’ of the ‘Prescott Wildland Division’.
They were telling candidates ‘up front’ that this wasn’t just going to be “camping in the woods with your friends”. It was going to be a PSUEDO-MILITARY experience and if you’re not ready for that… don’t even bother to apply.
Darrell Willis himself was some kind of military-wannabe… and has been quoted as saying that when they convinced Jesse Steed to come over to GM from the Prescott National Forest… that that was (quote) “the missing piece to the puzzle”.
In other words… both he and Eric Marsh obviously thought an ‘ex-marine’ was EXACTLY what Granite Mountain needed.
It’s still not clear WHO, exactly, was responsible for putting those ‘memorial sandwich boards’ together that popped up next to the Ranch House Restaurant just days after the tragedy. It appears to have been some members of the Prescott Fire Department who put all that together… and CHOSE the ‘text’ for it.
Ah yes…as they say. I now understand the context here. I have been riding my quad hard and putting it away wet so I am out of the loop.
The Bill Buck letter has been famous now for decades because several hotshot crews post it on their websites and/or send it out to applicants. Some even change some of the paragraphs of the letter for their own reasons. Until very recently the national USFS Fire website even had this letter posted on it and it has been adopted by all of the other agencies who employ hotshot crews.
I have found it to be very interesting that history has forgotten over time who actually wrote the letter….Bill Buck himself. Bill would be very pleased that his letter survived but disappointed WF history has forgotten he wrote it and why. That is why I am here I guess.
And since I am here, I will put in my two cents worth. I firmly believe that both Bob and RTS are anomalies, aberrations and one-offs..not me. I did not make up the “If the hotshot crew boss say’s it’s Easter..the crew starts looking for Easter Eggs…most ricky tick.”, I just embraced it.
There was never any talk of the Abilene Paradox or any of that other bullshit back in my day and probably since then on almost all of the hotshot crews of today. You either did what the crew boss said, when he said to do it, and exactly like he said to do it or it was your last day on the crew…no if’s ands or but’s.
And as I have said over and over again, that has always worked in the history of hotshot crews except for on three fires (the Loop, the Battlement Creek and the Yarnell Hill) because the hotshot crew boss always knows the best thing to do when split second decisions are made better than anyone else, all things considered.
The reason it didn’t work on those three fires is because their crew bosses were fucked up and so full of hubris they couldn’t think straight. That and promoting themselves and their careers over the safety of their crews.
You have to play the odds…and the odds are the hotshot crew boss is going to get it right, that is why they are the hotshot crew boss. Except in Eric Marsh’s case, he snuck in through the backdoor of the Prescott Fire Department that Willis propped open for him.
Tony Czak (Mormon Lake) was just as fucked up as Eric Marsh, but you will have to buy my book to read the rest of that story. I am going to have to go with what Bob says about Gordon King (El Cariso) since he was before my time.
I am going to say for the umpteenth time on this thread. I have to blame Jesse Steed because the law say’s I do. In my heart, I believe that Steed was just doing what he was supposed to do as a hotshot…follow his crew boss’ orders. His problem was that his crew boss was not qualified or fit to be a crew boss.
Let me try to explain the highly nuanced concept upon which hotshot crews are built upon.
Hotshot crews are made up of ordinary people who can do extraordinary things when they come together as a crew and produce synergy. That is when “The whole is greater than the sum of its parts.”
So…hotshot crews are trained and conditioned to believe that they can successfully charge the machine gun nest in broad daylight in open terrain (to use yet another military analogy) while at the same time being led by crew leaders who are FUCKING SMART ENOUGH NOT TO ACTUALLY DO THAT BECAUSE THEY WILL ALL DIE!
That fucking idiot Marsh missed that memo because he was not fit to be in Our House!
Too many “upons”, who give a fuck, you know what I am trying to say…right?
And no, Bill Buck played the part of the ex-Marine (although everyone knows there is no such thing as an “ex” Marine…there are only Marines) R. Lee Ermey so it never occurred to him that anyone who be debating whether or not his letter meant that “You must take orders, and carry those orders out at all times, day after day.”
That was a base line for Bill…a starting block and a no brainer. He built his hotshot crews with that concept as a given…no questions asked, or you didn’t belong there in the first place. I (and many, many others) literally worshiped the man and what he stood for.
Once again too many errors to read right but I’m sure you get the point.
We were “Bill Buck’s Boys!” And in many ways we could probably also be described as “The Lost Boys!”, since the WF world left us and the “Bill Buck Way” behind. Too bad there was a lone hold out on the Granite Mountain Interagency Hotshot Crew by the name of Jesse Steed.
And yes I am conflicted…see http://www.investigativemedia.com/please-begin-yarnell-hill-fire-chapter-xix-here/#comment-329468
“So…hotshot crews are trained and conditioned to believe that they can successfully charge the machine gun nest in broad daylight in open terrain (to use yet another military analogy) while at the same time being led by crew leaders who are FUCKING SMART ENOUGH NOT TO ACTUALLY DO THAT BECAUSE THEY WILL ALL DIE!”
What a fucking mess! The Yarnell Hill Fire introduced hotshots to the world…in a really bad way.
Oh…and one more thing.
WTKTT said, “The ‘context’ and ‘how it relates’ to Yarnell comes out of the discussion below that was a ‘revisit’ of whether or not Jesse Steed’s military background, and (perhaps) an ingrained tendency to ‘obey orders’ really was ( or wasn’t ) a significant causal factor for what happened in Yarnell on June 30, 2013.
Consensus: Maybe. Maybe not.”
There is no MAYBE to it. You can take that to the bank and cash it, I guarantee it’s good!
Gary,
This ingrained tendency to obey orders no matter what that Jesse Steed definitely had, was it because he was a hot shot or because he was a Marine or both?
Thanks!
Woodsman
I believe that Jesse Steed would have been capable of making that fatal decision if he would have just been a hotshot…or just a Marine.
Unfortunately, Jesse Steed and the crew were doomed because he was both AND he worked under an egotistical, insecure (VERY insecure) and unforgiving crew boss.
Yes…I am very conflicted.
I want to hug Eric Marsh and cry with him, while at the same time I want to slap the bitch (non-gender specific) out of him.
I don’t think I am ever going to be able to resolve my conflicts over the Yarnell Hill Fire.
There will never be any winners here unless some of this sinks in to some current or future crew boss (hotshot crew or not) or engine foreman or some other WF supervisor out there somewhere and a future Yarnell Hill Fire Disaster may be avoided.
That Buck writing Gary explained very well. Sounds similar to a mining job expectation except the part that you must take orders on a daily basis without questions.. Any miner would have said fuck you, I am on the front and I am the one risking all–no if ands and buts keep the fuck out of my way boss or do the job yourself. But there the bosses just wanted to make sure the miner was happy. And all you needed to do was turn on the Jack Hammer or Jack Leg in those close quarters and he would disappear in a heart beat. As far as women go I saw only one underground at the Church Rock United Nuclear mine on the 900 level. He dad was a judge or she would have never got hired. She wanted to work up to be a miner and those start out as nippers–they bring miners their supplies. But those rolls of wire chain link she was loading into ore cars weight over a 100 pounds and you needed to load a bunch of them since there were too much for her so miners were having to take their time off their face to help her load them and unload them to get them to their working place. She was ok to bring in bolts and steel, but too many complaints from miners and she was taken out of the mine. I can see Gary’s point of eliminating anyone that could not carry 60 pound bags of cement up the hill as being eliminated–since those water bags are heavy and add the men’s packs and tools and then a lunch might break the camel’s back if someone cant deal with 60 pounds. Some of these gals look pretty slight to be doing the heavy wild land work yet they are risking some on the line that I saw were killed as well. I do see a few old gals that are rough enough that maybe they could work out. Looking back, the Mexican miners I worked with in NM at the Fierro mine (no one spoke English there of they did would never let on) would say mala suerte (bad luck) to bring a woman underground. Mom never came into a mine with dad ever so maybe he thought the same. She did “womans” work and physically was more suited to that–cooking and dishes and washing clothes and strapping kids out of line. A more than a few of those I got up until I was 12 though my dad was not so inclined to punishment. He had left home from a farm in Illinois after his dad
whipped him with a trace chain. Those old farmers were harsh with their kids and he had taken off to fish when his step mom had ordered him to chores. That led him to be lenient on his kids I think.
But the point is I do believe too many weaklings and women are allowed on jobs more physically suited to men. I can remember having to cover for some guy that was unable to handle the heavy loads of the mine as well. He did not have the physical ability and took away from my own work to try to cover for him. He lasted longer than I would have thought but then miners were short so they kept him on for longer than they should have. They should have had him sweeping floors or as a honey dipper (shit bucket remover).
So I do see Gary’s point except the stricktly take order thing that makes me cringe. Joy sees were JD says that this whole idea is to isolate Steed and Marsh as to the blame for the deaths without putting any blame further. I have always agreed with JD on that and still do. But we are both civilians, and stand back a ways to listen to you fellows who are real wild land fire fighters. I see how Marsh and Steed under the pressure of “strictly obeying orders” had to set that example to their men and did strictly obey those above them Despite that attitude and Steed’s Marine military attitude you fellows say that they carry the largest part of the blame since they did know they were risking the lives of their men and did kill them by their negligent moves against all common sense and basic safety rules. Well at minimum I think any awards given to bosses above ought to be rescinded. And as far as Marsh and Steed go, the grieving is over–they deserve to be exposed for their careless actions as do any of the other bosses that made such a mess of the Yarnell Wild Land Fire so call incident that we have signs for as we enter our street. “No Access to Incident Site” signs as you enter Lakewood Street to get to our cabin. That sign ought to say NO ACCESS TO SEE WHERE THE WORSE DEBACLE IN WILDLAND FIRE FIGHTING HISTORY KILLED 19 YOUNG WILD LAND FIRE FIGHTERS DUE TO NEGLIGENT ACTIONS OF THEIR BOSSES. Certain individuals do not want you to see and understand what happened there–It might change their agenda, might even get the public angry enough to look closer into the actions that cost those lives and the millions of their tax dollars that were wasted because some in the fire fighting profession were screw ups from day one of Friday, June 28, 2013.
But don’t take my word for it Sonny, I used to think I knew how it should be done, but the Yarnell Hill Fire, Eric Marsh and the crew reset all of the WTF-O-Meters. I guess everything needs to be re-calibrated when the world in turned upside down. What happened on the YHF used to be unthinkable…so we have to rethink everything. Or at least somebody needs to rethink it, I am out of the loop.
**
** SLOWLY WE TURN
This was brought up from down below in a ‘thread’ that was running out of room.
>> On March 19, 2016 at 10:41 pm, Robert the Second (RTS) said…
>>
>> WTKTT and Woodsman,
>> Bob Powers does NOT speak for me. He is NOT my Public Information Officer.
>> I did NOT teach any class(es).
>> I was NOT ‘the ‘instructor’ who ‘invited’ the now-infamous guest-speaker.’
>> Yes, Bob misunderstand my role there.
>> And I posted today…
>> “To your chagrin, the Course title and Instructors will remain anonymous.”
>> On March 19, 2016 at 11:14 pm, WantsToKnowTheTruth (WTKTT) replied…
>>
>> I know how ‘exacting’ you can be when it comes to words… so I guess I don’t
>> need to point out that you basically just CONFIRMED that you, yourself, were
>> the ‘guest speaker’.
>>
>> If not… then what WERE you doing there?
>> On March 20, 2016 at 8:19 am, RTS replied…
>>
>> But not exacting enough I guess.
>> So it’s only fair that he gets equal treatment with the others mentioned.
>>
>> So then, the name of the person who was asked to leave the AZ Fire
>> Academy was NOT an Instructor or speaker and all the other iterations
>> you and Woodsman have mentioned and will also remain anonymous.
Color me confused.
So now the person who you have already confirmed was ‘asked to leave’ ( but
by Tony Sciacca and not Todd Abel? ) was NEITHER an ‘instructor’ NOR a ‘guest speaker’?
So beyond the WHO that person was… WHAT were they ( in relation to the Academy )?
What’s left besides ‘instructor’ or ‘guest speaker’?
Student? Staff person? An Embry Riddle University Janitor?
Since you now say this…
“…it’s only fair that he gets equal treatment”
…I guess that eliminates Holly Neill as being the one who was asked to leave?
Definitely a ‘male’?
That being said… something tells me Holly Neill had some kind of ‘role’ in this fiasco that isn’t fully clear yet.
She lives in New Mexico… but there she was at the 2016 AWIMA and pulling shifts at the “Eric Marsh Foundation” merchandising table.
I doubt that she came all the way from New Mexico just to sit at a table and sell T-Shirts.
Was SHE the one who did the REPORTING, here, about what someone was saying in one of the classes… which got the whole ‘ball of consternation’ rolling?
You also didn’t answer the simple question…
If you were neither the ‘instructor’ nor the ‘guest speaker’ nor the person who was actually ‘asked to leave’ the academy… then WHAT were you doing there?
Just taking some classes?
Answering my own question from above.
You (RTS) already explained how Amanda Marsh seemed to even become ‘aware’ of what anyone was saying back in the classrooms while she sat at her T-Shirt Booth…
>> RTS said…
>>
>> It all began on Tuesday, March 9th, when former GMHS (2011-2013) and
>> ‘volunteer’ for the Eric Marsh Foundation for WFF’s, Eric Naumetz talked
>> with Amanda Marsh about someone discussing the GMHS actions on
>> the 2012 ‘Nevada Fire (Holloway Fire) and the YH Fire and the GMHS in
>> the classroom.
So it was ( apparently ) Naumetz ( and not Holly Neill ) who did the ‘reporting’ that got the whole ‘ball of consternation’ rolling.
But the other question still stands.
Just for clarity’s sake ( question is directed to RTS )… what were YOU actually doing there at the 2016 AWIMA?
looking at this links-
http://wildlandfireleadership.blogspot.com/2014/07/a-legacy-of-leaders-beyond-south-canyon.html
http://universityofhardknocks.academia.edu/FredSchoeffler
and adding the people and pawns in this firefighting community I would guess from my humble opinion it was a Payson local wwtktt-
I will be in Payson soon to meet my deceased father’s best friend and that wooded area of people have told me a lot about the pawns and people in this chess game of firefighting-
There are knights like to me Eric Tarr and Brian Frisby and there is….
(soft smiles)
So maybe RTS knows this Payson local?
I am very sorry to hear how this person was asked to leave and not return to the academy-
but look forward to your presence FRESH START 2017 🙂
that was terrible.
Yarnell should be talked about it—tell the truth about it.
stay on target and let’s learn why these men died-
when I walked with one of the GMHS loved ones not too far back I knew we are doing the RIGHT thing to find clarity…
The men and all deserve it-
The day I only talk about rockhounding and stuff will be the day I make so many people happy but then you see this widow not just here locally but this fire changed us- we are not trying to thrill seek people or guide them to think our way— we let you see it for yourself and make your own assessment with all the documented information out there, We do not deny people but as you heard from RTS THOSE folks out there DO deny people even the ones who hiked with us than later I hear through the grapevine they talk negative about us and again some perceptions I can brush off my shoulder but one comment stuck—one said well you put it on your private photo page the event between you and Sonny and so we saw the perception “danger” not that FACTS are we are two way different people—waaaayyyy different but we are another’s caregivers yet we have been known to whisper to another when bickering “we are each others undertaker”…Sonny is priceless. He will admit his flaws and who he is to you…no sweat…where I find myself like “why air it?” but than I have done the same too— so its perception…lifestyle, etc.
I am glad to see it all worked out in the end but again SOOOOO sorry you were put in that spot-
clarify widow—-so no confusion—Nancy Cameron’s YHF story
I liked the Wildland fire leadership Several names their that I worked with or knew thanks Joy.
I agree Bob…alot of good information on page…my dads best friend was an ol time logger and retired in payson and from payson to cornville to sedona you can learn alot from the locals…we should be talking about these men on these links and honoring their leadership qualities
I agree Bob…a lot of good named leaders and information on page. My dads best friend was an ol logger and retired in payson…and from payson to cornville to sedona you can learn a lot from the locals…we should talk about these men on links and honoring their leadership qualities so people can see how important lces and safety rules mean vs hillbilly common sense lingo. The men in that link have a lot of good facts on yhf and people should know such.
What it reflects is all the really good Hot Shot Superintendents that ran crews for years. None had fatalities and ran their crews under the 10 and 18 that’s the way it was and I believe still is. Many made a name for themselves and their crews. I was proud to work with and know some in my time.
WTKTT,
You won’t get Paul Harvey, ‘the rest of the story’ but you will get more of the story.
The anonymous person met with the AZ Wildfire Academy IC and Deputy IC to ask some questions and briefly discuss the matter after confirming they were aware of the issue.
He asked them (1) what he allegedly said and did and where and (2) what was the YH Fire and GMHS briefing that they gave to everyone else at the AZ Wildfire Academy that he did not receive.
The first question was verified as posted here. And yes, Naumetz was the one that got it rolling by going to Amanda Marsh.
The second answer was very solid and from the heart. The IC accepted total ownership in NOT providing anyone at the Academy with a YH Fire and GMHS briefing. He acknowledged the still-high emotions and the sensitivity of the issue(s).
He thanked the anonymous person for bringing the issue up and the IC promised to address the YH Fire and GMHS briefing in future AZ Wildfire Academies. He also said he would talk to the AZ Wildfire Academy Coordinator about it.
The issue was resolved after their discussions with a good, satisfactory outcome.
Holly Neil was there and I talked with her for awhile – no, make that debated with her – on the entire YH Fire and GMHS debacle. She is still spewing ‘The Party Line’ of blaming management, the GMHS were victims, the toxicology reports are flawed due to a whole host of reasons and thus cannot be relied upon, and much more.
And to your chagrin, my answer to your question is – I was there. I know that begs the question, but that’s all I’m comfortable with revealing. It is what it is.
RTS said:
And yes, Naumetz was the one that got it rolling by going to Amanda Marsh.
MY REPLY: that has been confirmed finally? or is it still maybe it was him or someone else?
To all of you again I say Dale1 is Avery smart person.
He/She is playing a game with his one liners and occasionally added extra letters. His spelling is just fine and is playing with the sentences look at what he has written when he comes on.
He/She is enjoying the little game and using us as pawns.
Bob U will never be a pawn and I know that for a fact. Well what does an old miner cowboy and logger know about life? That much for sure.
Some of my best friends are Cowboys haven’t known many Miners except you and you know a hell of a lot about life.
Bob,
Agreed. Dale1 comes across as some kind of illiterate simpleton with feigned poor grammar skills and such.
IT may be using some here as pawns, but not all.
WWTKTT said: So now the person who you have already confirmed was ‘asked to leave’ ( but
by Tony Sciacca and not Todd Abel? ) was NEITHER an ‘instructor’ NOR a ‘guest speaker’?
MY REPLY- the method Dale1 came in maybe it was not with full report but tidbits and same with RTS and myself but Todd Abel or Holly is not going to come here and talk on topic- but they could offer some input— in my humble thinking on topic-
Nothing lifts my heart more than talking to one of the world’s best fire death investigators.
He is still concerned about the investigation about the deaths of 19 of his fellow wild land fire fighters. Not good for those that want to white wash this thing. I recognize the abilities of men of his ilk–and he is joined with many on this site. He and those here do not allow any room for bull shit. In his way of thinking–Truth or nothing at all. Thank you sir–this world is in need of more like you.
He indeed is a hero–saved a number of green horns like Donut. So have others on this site. Life goes on, but if we can get the truth out we know we have done the right thing. To the bottom of my heart thank all of you from WTKTT to Bob to Gary to RTS and every soul here wanting to get it right so that more know how to stay alive. My son Ted Carlos Gilligan was ever as much a hero as the 19 that died here at Yarnell. He believed in those above him that they would take care for his life. They did not as happened here in Yarnell. He is not replicable but the goons that had no respect for life are. No accolades her for 19 like him, even younger, cause he was 29. But dead he is because of a faulty system. Clean it up!
never can be replaced is what I meant for repicable
I have to admit, I would have never thought that Marsh could risk his mens lives that day. I would not risk Joy as stubborn as she is. Yet Marsh did. Negligent homicide is what the state would have charged me since Joy is not a savvy person involving survival. Call it what you will but I did go back and retrieve Joy from the very spot those men went down. I thought after all that I had the responsibility for her life even though I believe we are free to do what we like. Did I err? I can tell you for sure if I had known those fire men would go down in that canyon this old cowboy, miner and logger would have told them no way. As Mayor Kurkeydayhl said to me common sense goes a long ways. Where was it that day?
Now wild land fire fighters of the world do not hunt me up and mangle me. I am old and weary. But I do think Donut has a point. The rules are hill billy. And I have to agree this way, common sense rules. The 10, 18 and LCES are bull shit if you have no common sense to apply them. But then Mr. Donut we need to know what they are before we make a decision.
This says something for Tony Sciacca and all those involved in the YHF cover up. They will not allow any opinion except their own that follows what makes a shabby fire effort at Yarnell look good. That man that was discharged is more of a hero than Sciacca for expressing his honest opinion. He should be reinstated and Sciacca reprimanded for his behavior. In any university setting any diverse opinion is welcomed. And in a case of public interest, public opinion must be allowed.
Amanda is not in charge of the investigation and has no right to deny freely spoken opinions about Eric Marsh He being a public figure who did lead his men to death has every reason to be scrutinized. To allow this type leadership to continue where men such as Marsh blatantly disobey rules that would have kept his men alive is to assure that more wild land fire fighting lives will be taken. There is more at stake than just an attempt to clean up a bad actor so he is memorialized as a clean hero. Future lives, millions in tax dollars are as much a concern for every citizen as it is for widows and others whom have lost loved ones. Reality and truth brings results despite those that have blinders to the truth.
Charlie said:
And in a case of public interest, public opinion must be allowed.
MY REPLY:
you sure Sonny??? —you are talking about the same town where we were taught this:
http://www.examiner.com/article/cronyism-nepotism-and-favoritism-a-small-town-courthouse
http://sedonaeye.com/yavapai-county-corruption-alleged/
http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:YF2oJaZ0o4wJ:dcourier.com/main.asp%3FSectionID%3D36%26SubsectionID%3D73%26ArticleID%3D118915+&cd=3&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us
https://www.facebook.com/jack.d.wilson.3/posts/10203754612658217
From the Facebook link Joy just posted…
—————————————————
Jack D. Wilson
September 18, 2014 ·
This article focuses on the Yavapai County Court system. Read it and then read all the comments. Then ask yourself why the Prescott Daily Courier never does investigative journalism.
—————————————————
also Sonny- keep in mind if we allow certain people to be particular in this and allow folks to run people down for being open and honest—what they are DOING is keeping the FOCUS of why we lost these men—my question to those who do that why are you taking emphasis off the important part in this all—if we do that, we will allow the narratives remain IT and the system gets deeper and more insidious than it is NOW. Thank you to the speaker for sharing your views at the academy and I am sorry people are doing the syrup effect versus healing this the right way-
They have their zero tolerance and beliefs and I do too which is to make sure to reach clarity in this…
I’ve established a new watchout situation for myself & those I’m responsible for: Fighting Fire within the confines of the State of Arizona. I have come to the conclusion that the state of Arizona is completely fucked up.
I’m sure there are some good people there but kicking out a speaker for a class at a training academy (that’s funded with tax dollars) because of the protests of a widow? How the fuck did she know what anyone was saying there? Creepy does not begin to describe the situation in Arizona. Nice place to visit but I wouldn’t want to live there.
Uh oh, Bob, looks like you may have stepped in it again……….or you need to find more reliable sources for your research:
“My research from R3 sources says no one was kicked out Instructors or otherwise.”
Woodsman
Depends on the wording and the Timing the added speaker was not an instructor
and the Speaker was done and was leaving any way.
The discussion was over and they were not stopped during the discussion.
I stepped in what I knew I was stepping in.
Keep one foot in the black always have an out.
Yes sir, one foot in the black!
Reply to Woodsman post on March 19, 2016 at 4:09 pm
>> Woodsman said…
>>
>> I’ve established a new watchout situation for myself & those
>> I’m responsible for: Fighting Fire within the confines of the State
>> of Arizona. I have come to the conclusion that the state of
>> Arizona is completely fucked up.
Surely you didn’t need this latest ‘event’ to convince you of THAT.
I would have thought you would have ALREADY fully understood that if you ever, ever ,ever, ever find yourself being assigned to a fire in the State of Arizona… be SURE to put your best ‘game-face’ on… and WATCH OUT!
Better yet ( and just for safety’s sake )… just UTF those orders.
Better safe than sorry.
Holly there? Holly was deceptive with Joy, and now with the world? Nice person but bad acting–is it because she is in cohorts with Amanda?
Charlie said: Holly was deceptive with Joy, and now with the world?
MY REPLY: incorrect- your perception. I won’t engage on topic Sonny- question to you Sonny- you a couple cans short of a six pack? or how empty is Jim tonight?
Come on really….why talk about Holly like that- like I told her and Dr. Ted Putnam and I will state to you too—- Holly is in this to help all – not an agenda or to seem deceptive— she explained herself to me and I am good with it and as for her knowing others—who cares— I encourage togetherness.
BS right away. Holly missed the boat and I won’t go along with her and Amanda in their agenda to rewrite history to make Amanda’s Eric look good.
are you just sore because you learned she was near in Prescott and did not say hi to you and others that have grown to enjoy her and Wayne?
that’s what it sounds like to me
Hopefully, bringing this to the top because it was way lost in the weeds.
WTKTT,
On March 17th, you posted: ‘The very idea that an accredited ‘Wildland Training Academy’ would try, in any way, to establish ANY past fire fatality as ‘off limits for discussion’ is absurd.”
Yes, it is absurd, however, it did occur on Wednesday, March 10th, when Amanda Marsh called one of the AZ Fire Academy Course instructors to complain about someone talking about the GMHS and the YH Fire on Tuesday in one of the classrooms.
It all began on Tuesday, March 9th, when former GMHS (2011-2013) and ‘volunteer’ for the Eric Marsh Foundation for WFF’s, Eric Naumetz talked with Amanda Marsh about someone discussing the GMHS actions on the 2012 ‘Nevada Fire (Holloway Fire) and the YH Fire and the GMHS in the classroom. (To your chagrin, the Course title and Instructors will remain anonymous).
Early the following morning, Amanda Marsh called one of those Course Instructors, ranting and raving about the audacity of allowing someone to talk about the YH Fire and the GMHS, and specifically Eric Marsh.
The Course Instructor said he explained to her that there was a vast gulf of different perspectives and perceptions on those issues based on the myriad of WFF experience levels and much, much more in response to her protests and accusations.
The upshot was, she still feels Eric Marsh was/is a hero, a victim of the big-bad-fire, and it was nobody’s fault. And in a way, I get that. Then again, living in denial is not healthy nor conducive to healing.
Amanda Marsh also went to the AZ Wildfire Academy Director Tony Sciacca with the same complaints. He decided that this mischief-maker would have to leave the Academy because of what he said about the YH Fire and the GMHS. This was done WITHOUT getting ‘the other side of the story’ from the miscreant.
This YH Fire and GMHS offender was notified on Wednesday evening and left the Academy on Thursday.
And I am siding with Bob Powers on the entire ‘dale1′ debacle about his incoherent claims of an instructor getting removed from the academy or whatever he said.
WTKTT,
Clarification point on the above post.
There was NO YH Fire and/or GMHS briefing given to any of the AZ Wildfire Academy Cadre, Instructors, Students, and/or Participants to avoid discussing the YH Fire and/or the GMHS in spite of the recognized – but not discussed- sensitivity of the issues.
Yes there is a sensitivity since a movie is being made. But aren’t movies generally laden with fiction? Lets paint Marsh as a clean hero who by the will of God fucked up royally and killed those under him. Steed as we supposedly hear was in argument with the bad judgement of his superior officer. Somehow he went along knowing he might kill his men.
You know when we met Marsh he was quite the nice person–a gentleman by all I could tell. But being a nice guy and what he caused his men to do against all good sense and going against all 10, 18 and LCES in every count and with a history of this and by his own lone survivors account (hill billy rules) I have had to succumb to Bob’s opinion to a great degree. Bob is an old time wild land fire fighter and one of the best by studying his wisdom. I used to think Marsh had a pass since I felt that someone above him surely drove him down and so his accountability for the deaths of those under him lay in a heavy way above him. I still think there is some accountability beyond him. But in truth he did cause the death of his men by ordering them into a no win situation against all safety rules of fire fighting. I am not a fire fighter but have gleaned enough from you professionals that are to know this disaster was entirely a sacrifice of men. I can’t believe Marsh intentionally killed those youngsters. But I can believe he knew he was rolling dice and looking for a 7 but got snake eyes. He is certainly guilty of gross negligence concerning the lives of the 18 below him–something that future fire supers need to know so they take care first of the lives of their men before trying to defend dead structures.
I suppose you could say Marsh went his way, not proper wild land fire fighting technique, and that cost him and his men their lives.
Astounding.
I’m assuming the ‘course instructor’ that Amanda called to complain to was NOT the same ‘course instructor’ who actually dared to talk about a Wildland Fire at an accredited Wildland Firefighting Academy?
Two different ‘course instructors’ involved there, yes?
WTKTT,
The alleged miscreant was invited into the class to speak about WF, leadership, human factors, and such by the Course Instructors. He was NOT an Instructor.
Marty Cole, AZ Fire Academy OPS called the Course Instructor AFTER Amanda Marsh, inquiring about what this miscreant had done to pressure the Course Instructor into allowing him into the class and what the mischief-maker had done to coerce his way into the class.
The Course Instructor told him they had time in their schedule and invited him into the class, without any pressure. Imagine that!
Reply to Robert the Second (RTS) post on March 19, 2016 at 2:05 pm
>> RTS said…
>>
>> The Course Instructor told him they had time in their schedule
>> and invited him into the class, without any pressure. Imagine that!
The HOME page for this “Arizona Wildfire and Incident Management” ‘academy’ deal is here…
http://www.azwildfireacademy.org/
At the very, very TOP of the very first page of their own website…
——————————————————————————
Our academy is a premier training venue for the Southwest. The purpose of our academy is to “provide training that meets or exceeds the National Wildfire Coordinating Group and Federal Emergency Management Administration standards” to provide the highest quality training in an incident management setting offering our students the opportunity to establish a mentoring network.
True to our mission – that every firefighter is safe and comes home – every time. We are a non-profit 501 (c) 3 agency that is supported by grants and donations.
——————————————————————————
Nowhere on their website do they give any DETAIL about their ‘grants’ or their ‘donations’.
No sources or amounts listed ( as in… whether the ‘grants’ they receive are from local, state, federal taxpayer dollars… or perhaps all three ).
And also on their own HOME page… they publish the following list of all of the local, state and federal level ‘agencies’ and ‘companies’ that contribute either MONEY, or PERSONNEL, or just general SUPPORT to this AWIMA…
——————————————————————————
Apache Sitgreaves National Forest
Arizona Public Service
Arizona State Forestry
Bureau of Indian Affairs
Bureau of Land Management
Captain Crossfit
Central Yavapai Fire District
Chino Valley Fire District
Coconino National Forest
Coronado National Forest
Craig Brown
Daisy Mountain Fire District
Embry Riddle Aeronautical University
Fairmount Fire District
Fort McDowell Indian Community
Gila National Forest
Gila River Indian Community
Glendale Fire Department
Golder Ranch Fire District
Goodyear Fire Department
Grand Canyon National Park
Groom Creek Fire District
Highlands Fire District
Kaibab National Forest
Lessons Learned Center
National Interagency Fire Center
National Oceanic & Atmospheric Admin.
National Park Service
Native Air
Phoenix Fire Department
Pinewood Fire District
Prescott Fire Department
Prescott Firefighters Charities
Prescott National Forest
Rio Rico Fire District
San Juan County Emergency Services
Sedona Fire District
State Farm Insurance
Summit Fire District
Tempe Fire Department
Tonto National Forest
U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service
USFS Region 3
Williamson Valley Group
Yavapai County Board of Supervisors
——————————————————————————
The “Eric Marsh Foundation for Wildland Firefighters” is conspicuously missing from this list.
Unless you want to count the money it cost them to have a ‘merchandise booth’ at the 2016 AWIMA as some kind of ‘contribution’…
From the AWIMA ‘Vendor Information’ page…
http://www.azwildfireacademy.org/Vendor-Information.html
—————————————————————
2016 Vendor Information
Register online from our home page: www (dot) azwildfireacademy (dot) org
EXHIBITION DATES: March 5-11, 2016
Set up March 4 after noon
Tear down March 11 before noon
MENU (booths spaces are 10′ x 10′, with one 8′ table and two chairs)
Exhibit Space (indoor or outdoor): $350.00
Additional Space: $200.00
Additional Table: $35.00
Additional Person (2 included w/ reg.): $100.00
Contact us: [email protected] / (928) 442-3563
—————————————————————-
The “Eric Marsh Foundation” Facebook page says they were the ones sharing THEIR ‘booth’ ( the one they paid for ) with the “Hike Shack”.
This is also their PUBLIC Facebook page that listed former GMHS Eric Naumetz, ex-firefighter Holly Neill and Eric Marsh’s father John Marsh as some of the ‘voluteers’ manning the booth…
NOTE: The Foundation spelled Holly Neill’s name wrong in their post. It’s “Holly Neill”, not “Holly Niell”,,,
—————————————————————-
Eric Marsh Foundation for Wildland Firefighters
March 12 at 3:09am ·
( PHOTO OF THE ERIC MARSH FOUNDATION MERCHANDISE
BOOTH AT THE 2016 AWIMA.)
We clearly need a banner! We shared our booth at the Arizona Wildfire and Incident Management Academy with the Hike Shack and our good friend Amanda Lane. I am so grateful to everyone who came out to volunteer at the booth. Eric Naumetz, Rex Naumetz, Karen Norris, Tim Armenta, Holly Niell and John Marsh are rock stars! I also want to thank Amy Armenta for all of her hard work and dedication to the Eric Marsh Foundation for Wildland Firefighters.
—————————————————————-
QUESTION: Do you have any idea who actually WON their “2015 Southwest Wildland Firefighter of the Year” award and/or their “2015 Herb McElwee Loyalty Award” this year?
They ( the AWIMA ) have posted photos from the regular/annual ‘dinner’ which took place in the middle of this year’s 2016 ‘Academy’ event… and said the awards were given out… but then inexplicably failed to say WHO the awards were given TO this year.
It’s almost like they are AFRAID to say who they gave their awards to, or something.
WTKTT,
It went to Brian Frisby and the Blue Ridge Hot Shots.
“The 2015 Southwest Wildland Firefighter of the Year was awarded to Brian Frisby and the Blue Ridge Hotshots. Frisby and the Hotshots received this award for their commitment to community service, going above and beyond the call of duty and contributions to the fire service.”
http://myradioplace.com/news/tribute-dinner-held-during-az-wildfire-and-incident-management-academy/
Thank you.
No wonder they still haven’t even ‘announced’ it on their OWN Facebook page or on their own website.
They actually did get around ( just the other day ) to ‘announcing’ who won their ‘2016 Wildland Photo of the Year contest…
————————————————-
2016 Photo Contest winner Shaun Jones, Congratulations!
————————————————-
…but still absolutely NOTHING ( from them, on their own public website or other public pages ) about who they gave their own “Southwest Firefighter of the Year Award” too.
I wonder if Frisby was even there to ‘accept’ it and, if so, what he might have actually SAID.
WTKTT,
Frisby was NOT there to accept the award and I don’t know if any other BRHS did in his stead.
I think it was a bribe for them being directed NOT to speak about the YH Fire per the USDA OGC and NOT being allowed to participate in any of the mandated YH Fire Staff Ride developments.
Reply to Robert the Second (RTS)
post on March 19, 2016 at 7:42 pm
>> RTS said…
>>
>> Frisby was NOT there to accept
>> the award and I don’t know if
>> any other BRHS did in his stead.
Well… then that actually begs the question… did the ‘Blue Ridge Hotshots’ organization actually even ‘acknowledge’ or ‘accept’ the award at all?
I can’t find anything that says they DID.
From their perspective… this was probably the last thing they needed or wanted.
More ‘attention’.
>> RTS also said…
>>
>> I think it was a bribe for them being
>> directed NOT to speak about the
>> YH Fire per the USDA OGC and
>> NOT being allowed to participate
>> in any of the mandated YH Fire
>> Staff Ride developments
Ah… yes… the old “Thanks for keeping your mouths shut” award.
It makes sense to me now WHY there is/was no PUBLIC announcement this year on their part of who was getting the award.
They didn’t’ want the publicity.
The AWIMA has ALWAYS gotten around to doing a ‘wrap up’ on their website of the most recent ‘Academy’ ( even though it takes them a while ) and there is a special page where they ‘detail’ who has been getting these “Southwest Firefighter of the Year Awards”.
That page is here…
http://www.azwildfireacademy.org/Wildland-Firefighter-of-the-Year.html
—————————————-
2015 – ??????????
2014 – Greg Smith – for Ironwood Hotshots
2013 – Gary Cordes – for Yarnell rescues
2012 – Scott Glaspie – Coronado NF
—————————————-
It will be interesting to see if/when they even bother updating this page to say that the 2015 award went to the ‘Blue Ridge Hotshots’.
Added tidbit —All the people their for Training and most of the instructors were being paid by Government agencies from Tax dollars.
That’s a hell of a lot of money for a 5 day course.
Looks like lessons learned has not reached Arizona yet
I doubt the Feds are that restrictive.
Reply to Bob Powers post on
March 19, 2016 at 5:49 pm
>> Bob Powers said…
>>
>> Added tidbit —All the people
>> their for Training and most of
>> the instructors were being paid by
>> Government agencies from Tax dollars.
>> That’s a hell of a lot of money for
>> a 5 day course.
Yep… and how would most of those ‘agencies’ feel about finding out that ‘guest speakers’ who were trying to impart the most information they could and help people get the most out of their ‘taxpayer’ dollars were being ‘edited’ and ‘asked to leave’.
>> Bob Powers also said…
>>
>> Looks like lessons learned has not
>> reached Arizona yet I doubt the
>> Feds are that restrictive.
The HOME page for this “Arizona Wildfire and Incident Management” ‘academy’ deal is here…
http://www.azwildfireacademy.org/
At the very, very TOP of the very first page of their own website…
——————————————
Our academy is a premier training venue for the Southwest. The purpose of our academy is to “provide training that meets or exceeds the National Wildfire Coordinating Group and Federal Emergency Management Administration standards” to provide the highest quality training in an incident management setting offering our students the opportunity to establish a mentoring network.
True to our mission – that every firefighter is safe and comes home – every time. We are a non-profit 501 (c) 3 agency that is supported by grants and donations.
—————————————————
Key phrase from this ‘mission statement’…
“our mission – that every firefighter is safe and comes home – every time.”
Really? EVERY firefighter? EVERY time?
Then I have a ‘news flash’ for them…
In order to even get near ‘accomplishing’ that ‘mission’… you are going to have to allow full and free discussion about incidents where firefighters did NOT ‘come home’… a LOT of them… and right there in your own backyard.
The ‘non-instructor, guest speaker being booted from the academy because of the protests of a widow (who apparently has an effective system of monitoring in place and connections) is an entire story in and of itself.
John Dougherty is brilliant! It would take several lifetimes of several journalists to even publish all of the relevant stories produced by this format. Amazing.
Woodsman
No wonder BRHS want to stay out of the lime light. They are gagged then ragged. Awards? I hope those awards were not for any of they work they were doing at Yarnell. except Brian Frisby did deserve recognition for saving the green horn fire fighter Donut.
We tout the GMHS like they did a lot of work. Truth is there was not a lot they could do. That fire went ballistic and their work was cut short because of it. We watched their action, never saw the hundred yards of line as they cut but did see that they were at rest except for the hike up the mountain to the fire line. That hundred yards of line is still there among the boulders–out of the restricted area so maybe one of the pros will give you a good estimate by looking at the actual site.
The GMHS did look like ants below so it was some hike on that hot day, even as early as we passed them they looked exhausted from the strenuous hike up the hill. Know you wild land fire fighters let me know how fast 17 men can clean out a hundred yards of line in fairly sparse manzanita. They did cut a few prickly pear cactus and a few scrub oak of about 2 inch diameter–maybe three of both along with manzanita here and there among the boulders on a steep-45% decline. I would estimate maybe a half hour to one hour–does that seem reasonable?
Now BR must have done more. I don’t know who was doing the back burn above the Shrine and the line work in that area and Sesame, but we keep hearing reports that BR was in the area. Who else was in the Shrine area? If they had anything to do with that burn it could have been a mistake. The guy taking the video in that area ought to be brought up by the investigators to see about that back burn. It is crucial information considering how drastic that wind was while that was going on. But then apparently the investigators are not interested in such information. Let them talk to Sonny (me) and Joy–we sure as hell saw the video but been able to retrieve it same as when we saw that the 320 acre restricted area was actually restricted on June 16, 2013 by what I thought was actually done by a drunk official writing in the wrong date. This document was on line and we saw it after we came back from evacuation, yet a few days after seeing it more than once we could no longer find it on line. Now you see it, now you do not game.
Yes do hang your heads firemen who receive any award for the Yarnell incident. Nineteen wild land fire fighters dead, half the residences of Yarnell and a number of of Peeples Valley residences burned to the ground including the historic Bar A Ranch, 84 residents from Yarnell dead since the fire, untold weeping and sadness from the loss of the fire fighters and residents, millions and tax dollars squandered here–and people have the audacity to accept awards for their efforts here. Shit!
–aren’t we the hikers and eyewitnesses the ones who were asked to hike people like the nation’s top fire fatality investigator and others that were non-media related even retired fbi/cia folks and law enforcement and even ones that was on the scene so that tells the hikers some are not out to be someone’s new near dear friend and as well some of these people on that side of things versus remaining neutral and open and seeing all sides than it falls into my mind collaborative information to create and orchestrate a narrative that fits. If it was my husband that was the one who had that horrific afternoon I would know in it without any authority telling me that there will be many perspectives and perceptions and if I did not like an area that was speaking that did not provide sources and documents to at least state that in article that this is in your humble opinion but here we have a serious situation because why again is it a certain person placed an article out over at Bill Gabbert’s not showing where or how or proof of such conclusions to the article- leaving it out yet this person is a dear one to another? BUT say anyone on here or at that academy or anywhere speaks about the GMHS —why are we shunned and not them? It really is not healthy to be so particular in who can speak—cuts out the freedom of speech—cuts out gaining clarity and truths—cuts out individualism and people being who they are— I get RTS on his statement that he gets the sensitivity of it but what about the sensitivity of the loved ones of the GMHS who came to us the hikers- I got very very special videos from that area and let me state one widow or two does not speak for them all— is what we have been told- without revealing a person and they know who they stated— “to this day I thank you both from my heart, you have never left those boys from the very start…” that was just this month too- so side note: AND WE WON’T EVER STOP TRYING TO REACH CLARITY-
wwtktt- Cavalier sold- did you note that. right next to Helm’s where staff rides are being done-the ol’ burro trail is now an investment co out of Texas…
Again this is a very very horrific event that took place but to not be able to talk about it from every which way we can is not healthy too- we all have to be able to tee it up and in our own individual way not this way or that way….the way we were born to be— ourselves-
That kind of thinking just keeps the missing elements in hiding until they are way old or way drunk- or read woodsman poem…
I do not agree world with certain people stopping people from sharing and more so on that professional platform…yes heroes they were and are…but there is serious things to talk about to all in the world not just in the profession-
also without BRHS and so many others that were on the fire during crucial moments—without their testimonies—it is not even properly assessed yet the YHF so give us the information so we can assess it—-You are right wwtktt—why not talk about a wildfire at the wildfire academy—makes sense to me.
Reply to Joy A. Collura post on March 19, 2016 at 1:47 pm
>> Joy A. Collura said…
>>
>> here we have a serious situation because why again is it a certain
>> person placed an article out over at Bill Gabbert’s not showing
>> where or how or proof of such conclusions to the article- leaving
>> it out yet this person is a dear one to another? BUT say anyone on
>> here or at that academy or anywhere speaks about the GMHS —why
>> are we shunned and not them? It really is not healthy to be so
>> particular in who can speak—cuts out the freedom of speech—cuts
>> out gaining clarity and truths—cuts out individualism and people
>> being who they are—
>> Joy A. Collura also said…
>>
>> wwtktt- Cavalier sold- did you note that. right next to Helm’s
>> where staff rides are being done-the ol’ burro trail is now
>> an investment co out of Texas…
Which actual ‘parcel number’ are you referring to?
As of today… Yavapai County Assesor’s office still shows that north half of section 9, Township 10W Range 05W ( Parcel number 203-02-002 and the land that is due north of the new Arizona Park ) as belonging to Maughan Ranch…
Parcel Number: 203-02-002
Owner: MAUGHAN 2007 REVOCABLE TRUST
Owner’s Mailing Address: PO BOX 29041, Phoenix, AZ, 850389041
Secondary Owner: MAUGHAN REX AND RUTH TTEES
And parcel number 203-05-oo3M, where the Helm’s cattle pond is located and where the Staff Ride begins ( at the exact spot where DPS Ranger 58 Helicopter ‘set down’ on June 30, 2013 to let DPS medic Eric Tarr out in order to hike west to deployment site and confirm the deaths ) is still listed as belonging to “HELM HUGH L AND DIANE J”.
And parcel 203-05-003H, which is just east of the ‘burro trail’ that leads away from the cattle pond is still showing owner as “BALUCO DECEDENT’S TRUST” with a secondary owner of “DE WASSON MARIA LUISA VALLE TTEE”.
The parcel that contains the ‘Sesame Clearing’ area, where the Granite Mountain vehicles and the Blue Ridge vehicles were initially all ‘parked’ the morning of June 30, 2013 is still owned by “WHITEHEAD LIMITED PARTNERSHIP”…
Parcel Number: 203-05-004
Owner: WHITHEAD LIMITED PARTNERSHIP
Owner’s Mailing Address: 18950 S. WALNUT GROVE CEMETERY RD.
KIRKLAND, AZ 86332
Secondary Owner: N/A
The “WHITEHEAD LIMITED PARTNERSHIP” ( at that exact Kirland address ) changed it’s name in 2014 to the “WHITEHEAD LAND AND CATTLE CO. LP”.
The ‘owners’ are ( as they were before ) JOHN R. and PHILIP C. WHITEHEAD.
From the State of Arziona’s PUBIC Corporation records…
—————————————————————————-
Arizona State File ID: 2026307
Description: Limited Partnership
Status: Active
Name: THE WHITEHEAD LAND AND CATTLE CO., LP
Address 1: 18950 S. WALNUT GROVE CEMETERY ROAD
City: KIRKLAND
State: AZ
ZIP: 86332-
Registered Date: 12/29/2014
Agent/Owner Information
Agent ID, Type, Fullname, Address, City, State, ZIP, Phone
1332161, Service of Process, JOHN R. WHITEHEAD, 18950 S. WALNUT GROVE CEMETERY ROAD, KIRKLAND, AZ, 86332, N/A
1332163, General Partner, JOHN R. WHITEHEAD, HC 67 BOX 927, KIRKLAND, AZ ,86332, N/A
1332166 General Partner, PHILIP C. WHTEHEAD, PO BOX 240, KIRKLAND, AZ, 86332, N/A
Registration Information Received: 12/29/2014
————————————————————————–
Are you talking about the parcel that is just SOUTH of the Boulder Springs Ranch, but also just EAST of the Arizona State Trust Land?
The one that ‘changed hands’ just at the end of last December for $95,000 and is now owned by the “731 CORP, LLC.” located in BEAUMONT, TEXAS?
This one?…
Parcel Number: 203-15-009
Owner: 731 CORP LLC
Owner’s Mailing Address: 148 S DOWLEN RD #662, BEAUMONT, TX 777071755
Secondary Owner: N/A
Recorded Documents and Sale(s)
Date, Book/Page Type, Cost
12/31/2015, 2015-0061631, Warranty Deed, $95,000
09/30/2005, 4317/380, Warranty Deed, $241,735
The “731 CORP, LLC” is a business registered in Texas and associated with someone named Richard Scott.
This says something for Tony Sciacca and all those involved in the YHF cover up. They will not allow any opinion except their own that follows what makes a shabby fire effort at Yarnell look good. That man that was discharged is more of a hero than Sciacca for expressing his honest opinion. He should be reinstated and Sciacca reprimanded for his behavior. In any university setting any diverse opinion is welcomed. And in a case of public interest, public opinion must be allowed.
Amanda is not in charge of the investigation and has no right to deny freely spoken opinions about Eric Marsh He being a public figure who did lead his men to death has every reason to be scrutinized. To allow this type leadership to continue where men such as Marsh blatantly disobey rules that would have kept his men alive is to assure that more wild land fire fighting lives will be taken. There is more at stake than just an attempt to clean up a bad actor so he is memorialized as a clean hero. Future lives, millions in tax dollars are as much a concern for every citizen as it is for widows and others whom have lost loved ones. Reality and truth brings results despite those that have blinders to the truth.
RTS,
you said: “And I am siding with Bob Powers on the entire ‘dale1′ debacle about his incoherent claims of an instructor getting removed from the academy or whatever he said.”
I am trying to take you seriously but you are making it extremely difficult. I find you inexplicably disingenuous.
Woodsman
Woodsman,
Disingenuous? Really?
“Not candid or sincere, typically by pretending that one knows less about something than one really does.”
A plethora of synonyms include, but are not limited to: Lacking in frankness, candor, or sincerity; falsely or hypocritically ingenuous; insincere; dishonest; untruthful; false; deceitful; duplicitous; lying; mendacious; hypocritical; cunning; feigned; indirect; guileful; oblique; shifty; sly; two-faced; underhanded.
Same or similar dictionary and/or sources here?
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/disingenuous
Have you succumbed to the ‘Perception Is Reality’ crowd? Whatever floats your boat.
I think I’ll seek some comfort and solace in filing a ‘Hurt Feelings Report.’
RTS,
I’m basing my assessment on you initially providing all of the excellent detailed information on the ‘academy incident within an incident.’ and ending it with: “And I am siding with Bob Powers on the entire ‘dale1′ debacle about his incoherent claims of an instructor getting removed from the academy or whatever he said.”
It looks like the entire ‘dale1 debacle’ was correct after all. A person that was addressing the students of a class at the academy WAS asked to leave or one could say ‘kicked out.’ According to you without even hearing his side of the story. (you know a lot about this…was it you? I could believe that as you ARE sincere about firefighter safety!)
That all sounded disingenuous or insincere to me that after you corroborated dale1’s assertion by explaining what happened, you turned around and said you were ‘with Bob’ and it’s bogus. Didn’t make sense and since I think you are fairly smart, I believe you were being ‘shifty.’
Woodsman
Woodsman,
>> On March 13, 2016 at 11:16 am, dale1 said…
>>
>> didd u go to the ariz wildfire academmy …. see wat Todd Abel did lasst week…./?
>>
>> Then on March 15, 2016 at 5:47 am, dale1 said…
>>
>> tod abel kickced a instructor out for talking trash../.…?..
Absolutely and unequivocally false regarding an instructor and regarding Todd Abel.
RTS:
Mouse nuts.
So it wasn’t an actual instructor but someone with instructor like tendencies that was invited by the instructor to speak in front of a class of students he was instructing for the purpose of adding to the instructive discussion taking place at the time at an academy……………..but it wasn’t an instructor so ‘technically’ Dale1 was wrong. Ok.
It wasn’t Todd Abel, that booted the non-instructor instructor-invited guest speaker that spoke to the class in an instructor-like manner (but he was not an instructor-I cannot express this any clearer), it was Tony Sciattica (sp?) who asked the invited guest non-instructor to leave, or booted the non-instructor from the academy…….so, technically Dale1’s statement was “Absolutely and unequivocally false.” Ok.
I’ll give you a choice between feigned & oblique.
Woodsman
Woodsman,
That’s a Hobson’s Choice. Thanks, I’ll pass. I take neither one.
I’m going to speculate that if it wasn’t for Dale1 posting what he did we would probably never have known any of this happened. It would have been added to the growing list of facts & oddities hidden from public view pertaining to the Yarnell Hill fire.
Tree shaking!
Woodsman
On March 19, 2016 at 7:48 pm, RTS said…
>> On March 13, 2016 at 11:16 am, dale1 said…
>>
>> didd u go to the ariz wildfire academmy ….
>> see wat Todd Abel did lasst week…./?
>>
>> Then on March 15, 2016 at 5:47 am, dale1 said…
>>
>> tod abel kickced a instructor out for talking trash../.…?..
>>
>> RTS said…
>>
>> Absolutely and unequivocally false regarding
>> an instructor and regarding Todd Abel.
Double Mouse Nuts.
C’mon… RTS… the minute you posted that “Here’s what happened but I am with Bob about dale1” message… you KNEW you were going to get ‘pushback’.
That was a ‘WTF’ ending to an otherwise very informative post.
Fine… ‘dale1’ seemed unaware that this ‘person’ was just an ‘invited speaker’ and not a full blown ‘instructor’.
Fine… ‘dale1’ was assuming that if anyone was being ‘asked to leave’ the Academy then the person who was the IC and running the whole fucking thing ( Todd Abel ) must have either been the one who was making it happen OR had knowledge it was happening.
And I’ll double down on that last ‘fine point’.
If Todd Abel did NOT know this kind of ‘frap’ was in progress at his own ‘Incident’… and his own ‘Academy’ ended up minus a guest speaker for dubious reasons… then someone should take his IC rating away and send him back to his ‘taskbook’… yes?
Bob Powers had already ‘announced’ that you were THERE at the 2016 AWIMA. He said you were an ‘instructor’ this year…
>> On March 13, 2016 at 4:37 pm, Bob Powers said…
>>
>> Would also Add that our friend RTS was there as a
>> Instructor all last week.
What class(es) did you teach?
Were YOU the ‘instructor’ who ‘invited’ the now-infamous guest-speaker… or did Bob misunderstand your role there and YOU were actually this ‘guest speaker’?
WTKTT and Woodsman,
Bob Powers does NOT speak for me. He is NOT my Public Information Officer.
I did NOT teach any class(es).
I was NOT ‘the ‘instructor’ who ‘invited’ the now-infamous guest-speaker.’
Yes, Bob misunderstand my role there.
And I posted today “To your chagrin, the Course title and Instructors will remain anonymous.”
Remember, it’s double mouse nuts, so get over it. In other words, it’s NO big deal, ya know, like how big are a mouse’s nuts?
So saith Robert the Second
I know how ‘exacting’ you can be when it comes to words… so I guess I don’t need to point out that you basically just CONFIRMED that you, yourself, were the ‘guest speaker’.
If not… then what WERE you doing there?
WTKTT,
But not exacting enough I guess. So it’s only fair that he gets equal treatment with the others mentioned.
So then, the name of the person who was asked to leave the AZ Fire Academy was NOT an Instructor or speaker and all the other iterations you and Woodsman have mentioned and will also remain anonymous.
RTS,
you said:
“WTKTT,
The alleged miscreant was invited into the class to speak about WF, leadership, human factors, and such by the Course Instructors. He was NOT an Instructor.”
Just above you said:
“So then, the name of the person who was asked to leave the AZ Fire Academy was NOT an Instructor or speaker and all the other iterations you and Woodsman have mentioned (snip)”
What is YOUR term for an individual that, according to you, “was invited into the class to speak about WF, leadership, human factors, and such by the Course Instructors.”?? You just said ‘invited into the class to speak.’
I don’t really care who it was, although I’m curious. The main point is that the ‘wagons are still circled’ by the protectors of facts about the Yarnell Hill fire.
Ok, I’ll choose: lacking in frankness.
Woodsman
RTS,
I don’t think you should have discredited Dale1’s statements because it turns out he was basically correct. Your protests on the minute details being wrong were what I considered ‘mouse nuts.’
I had a hunch the non-instructor instructor-invited guest speaker was you. If I was correct about that, I wanted to give you credit for talking about what needs to be talked about if the wildfire system has any chance in hell of learning from the tragedy at Yarnell Hill. It makes it nigh impossible when you launch your sensitivity accusation campaign to get to the point of being able to give credit where credit is due. This time I did find out what had happened, so thank you.
Woodsman
I will just add it was my Miss Speak and misunderstanding as to what RTS was doing there.
My understanding he is part of the Type 1 and Type 2 teams in Arizona and in place with the Federal Wild Land Fire System as a Accredited Safety Officer available to Teams through out the Nation.
Was he there as a Safety Officer out side the Instructors but part of the team run School?
He will have to answer that question. if he wants.
Again I just knew he was there and assumed he was a instructor.
This entire Academy is not a Federal but a Private/State run that is sanctioned as approved courses for the S-Courses. I doubt that they want the Course and Academy to be shown in a bad light. This whole thing will leak out as it is here and I would hope the NIFC will have a discussion with the Organizers.
What is the biggest way to get your Class attention?
In Fire safety its the most current Fires that have produced Fire Fatalities.
Discussing current fires with FF who are aware of the names and dates is what Lessons learned is all about. Most of the older fires have been discussed over and over the newer ones still have questions and discussions to create understanding.
To refuse the students the time and discussion on any Fire including Yarnell is a disservice to Wild Land Fire Fighters.
In my day we always brought up controversial subject matter we were encouraged to do so and create discussion that was positive to change. Identifying factors that caused a Accident or a Death.
The late 60’s and 70’s it was the Loop Fire and several other fires that were current. After 94 it was the Storm king mountain. Now it is the Yarnell and most recent this last years tragedies You can not stop it and you should not try.
There is no true lesions learned when you will stop discussion to protect others. Shame on this Academy and its leaders.
Bob,
Miss Speak, ey?
Does your wife know about her?
I am NOT on any Type 1 or 2 IMT.
Stick foot in mouth and kick ass at the same time.
You are listed as a available person for added or fill in on fires in the R3 and NIFC overhead. Not assigned directly to a Team. Sorry– if I am wrong again please correct me. I should have known better………
Bob
Wilma’s husband can help bring clarity to topic…he was there
“Wilmaaaaaaa….”
YES FRED.
Joy,
Fred who? He was at the academy? A firefighter? Instructor?
Woodsman
Is it just me… or does anyone else get the impression that some people simply do not have enough keys on their keyboards to actually communicate clearly these days… or something.
The following keys are apparently not working: J,K,Q,V,X, & Z,,,,,,,,,,,and the A-key is clearly sticking….
I’m waiting patiently for information and clarity from ‘Wilma’s Fred.’
Woodsman
Woodsman your to young to remember the TV show with Wilma and Fred.
Fred was always hollering at Wilma————-
Amanda has been a problem at getting at the truth from the get go. Her disregard for keeping cell phone, her absolute regard for a man that led 18 to their deaths, and her ability to influence people to her biased opinion makes me shutter. The lives of future wild land fire fighters depends upon the truth and the errors men such as Eric made in their feeble efforts at wild land fire fighting and keeping their men alive must be revealed else the same sorry methods of wild land fire fighting continues. More dead fire fighters because people want to defend their egos, friends, lovers, and cronies as heroes and paint the bad methods as wonderful.
The 2011 Horseshoe 2 Fire on the Coronado NF, in the very steep and very rugged Chiricahua Mountains of southeastern AZ, was the fire that MANY HS Supts. repeatedly brought up after the fatal 30 June 2013 YH Fire fatalities.
http://narcamoorecraig.blogspot.com/2011/06/walt-andersons-photos-of-horseshoe-two.html
Some good photos of the fuels, topography, and fire behavior in the above link.
I recently talked with a few of the HS Supts. (who will remain anonymous) that were on the Horseshoe 2 Fire and worked with Marsh and the GMHS and they recounted the following:
Similar to the YH Fire, Marsh was the DIVS and Steed was the Acting GMHS Supt.
Under the direction of DIVS Marsh, the GMHS had been constructing fireline and burning out in heavy ladder fuels along a very steep and very narrow, razorback ridge.
The dropoffs on each side of the razorback ridge were dangerously and precipitously steep, essentially foreclosing any safe possibilities of safely firing AND holding the firing operation.
In other words, if a slopover(s) or spot fire(s) occurred below them they could NOT safely engage the spotfires and would have to just let them get big, even with air support. Air support without ground personnel is worthless.
DIVS Marsh told these two HS Supts. (one form CA and one from AZ) that he was “HANDING [THEM] A SHIT SANDWICH.” Both HS Supts. told DIVS Marsh that he was NOT “handing [them] a shit sandwich” because neither one of the HS Supts. would accept the assignment under these conditions.
These two HS Supts. refused the assignment and so this was a “Turn Down” as defined in the IRPG on page 19 “How to Properly Refuse Risk.”
The IMT then did the classic move and reassigned them to ‘Division Siberia’ for these two Crews for turning it down. They were reassigned to do structure protection around some structures somewhere away from the fire. These two HS Crews were eventually assigned meaningful assignments.
These two HS Supts. stated that the steep and hazardous “shit sandwich” fireline that DIVS Marsh and GMHS continued to fire and attempt to hold, escaped and the entire Division blew out.
The two AZ and CA HS Supts. recognized the “SHIT SANDWICH” situation for what it was and refused the assignment based on the WFF Rules. DIVS Marsh and the GMHS continued to pursue a tactic that was putting themselves and their firefighters at significant risk with actions that were bound to fail. And it did fail.
Bad Decisions With Good Outcomes.
Pat Moore. Would have really enjoyed hearing that conversation. So Marsh had been ‘field promoted’ to DIVS before and as much as 2 years before Yarnell Hill? I learn something new every day.
Woodsman
>> Woodsman said…
>>
>> So Marsh had been ‘field promoted’ to DIVS before and as much as 2
>> years before Yarnell Hill? I learn something new every day.
Eric Marsh actually ‘became’ a certified DIVS ( non-trainee ) on August 26, 2009.
But speaking of ‘learning something new ever day’… hang on to your hat for some of the ‘irony’ being detailed down below.
The man who would be the final ‘sign off’ on Eric Marsh’s DIVS taskbook would then be the same man who would record his final words with his Helmet Camera on June 30, 2013.
Prescott National Forest employee Aaron Hulburd.
The ADOSH investigators requested and received ALL ‘training records’ for Granite Mountain ( Marsh included ) and they have always been sitting in the online Dropbox.
Here is the folder containing all of Eric Marsh’s “training records” as obtained by ADOSH…
ADOSH Yarnell Hill Investigation / City of Prescott Fire — GMHS / Training Records / Eric Marsh
https://www.dropbox.com/sh/20inrene9tcx74a/AADboA15Lgl7OG0MCCh5ECJfa/ADOSH%20Yarnell%20Hill%20Investigation/City%20of%20Prescott%20Fire%20–%20GMHS/Training%20Records/Eric%20Marsh?dl=0
There are 6 PDF document files in that ‘Eric Marsh Training Records’ folder…
“E Marsh DIVS.pdf” – Marsh’s DIVS taskbook
“E Marsh STEN STCR.pdf” – Marsh’s STEN/STCR taskbook
“E Marsh TFLD.pdf” – Marsh’s TFLD taskbook
“Eric Marsh Master Record.pdf” – All ratings
“Eric Marsh Training-Experience Records.pdf”
“MARSH Eric Red Card.pdf”
Marsh’s DIVS ‘taskbook’ was initiated on March 7, 2006, by his boss at that time, Prescott’s first Wildland Division Chief Duane Steinbrink.
It took Marsh 3 years, 5 months and 19 days to ‘complete’ his DIVS taskbook.
Marsh’s DIVS taskbook was ‘completed’ and ‘certified’ ( again, by Duane Steinbrink ) on August 26, 2009.
There are only FIVE ‘Evaluation Records’ included in Marsh’s DIVS taskbook.
Eric’s FIRST ‘evaluation’ came just 3 days after Duane Steinbring created his DIVS taskbook and it was on the Coronado National Forest ( but not on the fire RTS mentions above )…
His five ( and only five ) evaluators over that 3 year, 5 month period were…
03/10/2006 – Mark M. South – SEZ – CORONADO NATIONAL FOREST.
11/06/2007 – Bill Kuche – AZ/PNF ( Prescott National Forest ) / Supt.
08/05/2008 – Andy Morrin – Rich Fire P5ED7R – Plumas NF – R5/NZ.
03/20/2009 – Dean Steward – AZ Wildfire Academy – DIVS, Central Yavapai Fire.
08/13/2009 – Aaron Hulburd – DIVS – Prescott National Forest
And YES.. the 03/20/2009 ‘evaluation’ was simply when Eric Marsh was playing ‘DIVS’ at his own 2009 AWIMA Arizona Wildfire Academy. Dean Steward was there as well and ‘signed’ Marsh’s ‘DIVS’ taskbook for runing 2 S211 classes and 1 S234 class.
Dean Steward is Todd Abel’s close friend ( and former engine-mate with CYFD ) and he is the one who ended up the actual DOZB/HEQB the night of June 30, 2013 and supervised that ‘dozer push’ out from the Boulder Springs Ranch to where the 19 dead bodies were out in the box canyon.
On the ‘Final Evaluator’s Verification’ document… the ‘Final Evaluator’ who ‘signed off’ on Marsh’s taskbook on August 13, 2009… was Prescott National Forest (PNF) employee Aaron Hulburd.
Yep. The same PNF “Fuels Technician” ‘Aaron Hulburd’ who would be an ‘off the radar’ hire on the Yarnell Hill Fire on June 30, 2013, and the one to actually record Eric’s last words with his Helmet Camera.
And as if that wasn’t enough ‘irony’…
The person who ended up the ‘final evaluator’ for Jesse Steed’s actual STCR taskbook would be the man who was standing NEXT to Aaron Hulburd in Yarnell as Hulburd was recording their final words.
Prescott National Forest employee ( KC ‘Bucky’ Yowell ).
See ‘Jesse Steeds’ taskbooks in the same ADOSH folder.
It was a pretty ‘incestuous’ back-and-forth going on there in Prescott.
A lot of ‘Granite Mountain’ ratings were being ‘earned’ right there in their own backyard and being ‘signed off’ on by the actual “Three Prescotteers”.
Jason Clawson, Aaron Hulburd and KC ‘Bucky’ Yowell.
The same three men who, along with Brian Frisby and Trueheart Brown, would be the first firefighters to arrive where their bodies were on June 30, 2013.
And NONE of these men were interviewed by ANYONE who was charged with investigating Granite Mountain and the Yarnell Hill Fire.
So now… not only do we have full evidence that the “Three Prescotteers” ( Jason Clawson, Aaron Hulburd and KC ‘Bucky Yowell ) did all of the following…
1. Responded to Roy Hall’s ‘off the radar’ calls for more ‘help’ on Sunday morning and arrived in Yarnell with their separate trucks and 2 ATVs.
2. Jumped into the Yarnell Hill ‘fire’ in leadership roles and started ‘freelancing’ as soon as they got there ( because Bea Day’s Type 2 Team that they belonged to had already been ‘junked’ and the Incident was moving to Clay Templin’s Type 1 team ).
3. Were present on the Shrine Road and were helping to ‘direct’ all the Youth Camp evacuations.
4. One of more of them ( Clawson, Hulburd and/or Yowell ) might STILL be one or two of the ‘mysterious’ as-yet-unidentified VOICES heard talking to Granite Mountain…. and perhaps even the ones Marsh was ‘reporting’ to in the 4:27 PM YARNELL-GAMBLE video )
5. Aaron Hulburd becomes the one to film 21 separate videos that captured what was happening prior to, during and after the deployment… but has never been officially identified as doing any such thing.
6. All THREE of them were members of the ‘ground rescue team’ that said “fuck it… let’s go for it”… and charged through probably still-live low-hanging power lines and past venting propane tanks just to try and find GM.
7. Were members of the first set of FFs to actually walk up to the deployment site where DPS Medic Eric Tarr had just found the bodies.
8. Jason Clawson was the one to actually make the “19 confirmed dead” radio call to OPS1 Todd Abel.
9. And just like key player SPGS1 Gary Cordes… Jason Clawson has absolutely NO RESOURCE ORDER in the ‘official’ documentation for the Yarnell Hill fire. Hulburd and Clawson ended up with ‘backfill’ orders only created a week later that says their assignment at Yarnell was “assisting with body recovery’… but Jason Clawson and Gary Cordes ended up with no ‘resource order’ whatsoever. Like they were never even there. Ironic that the only member of fire command to ever admit that he KNEW exactly where Granite Mountain was headed ( Gary Cordes )… and the very FF who would make the radio call confirming the 19 deaths ( Jason Clawson )… were… as far as Arizona Forestry’s official fire personnel list is concerned… NEVER even THERE at the Yarnell Hill Fire.
In addition to ALL of that…
We can now see in the ‘GM training records’ obtained by ADOSH that these same “Three Prescotteers” were actually the ones who were the ‘final evaluators’ for Eric Marsh’s actual DIVS taskbook and Jesse Steed’s actual STCR taskbook.
And no one ever bothered to interview these “Three Prescotteers”.
Not even Mike Dudley or Jim Karels… who were NOT under the same ‘Touhy’ restrictions as ADOSH and they DID have ‘full’ interview access to other USFS personnel like the Blue Ridge Hotshots.
The only agency that got the REDACTED versions of the Blue Ridge Unit Logs was ADOSH. Mike Dudley and Jim Karels saw ‘the real thing’ and were even able to have their OWN interviews with them.
They could have done the same with Jason Clawson, Aaron Hulburd and KC ‘Bucky’ Yowell… but ( as far as we know? ) they never even bothered.
The Connection to Prescott NF is not surprising.
May or may not fit but some times teams are sent to Fires with a DIVS and a Trainee. That would more than likely be Marsh attached to Prescott Qualified DIVS people. ( not much from the City to draw from)
Most of the assignments you mention could well have been Trainee positions for March before he was signed off as a DIVS in 2009.
It dose not show trainee from what you posted but stands out if there were no Trainee assignments prior.
Then for 4 years he never served? That’s quite a spread to maintain a Qualification of that level.
Most large fires would have been Federal. and a agreement to attach to a Forest DIVS I will have to look, but were all the Fires at DIVS or under in a TFLD or a STLD positions?
OK some Big Questions—-
1. All DIVS assignments TWO were both Trainee.
2. RED CARD says Qualified DIVS how ever The ICT4
Qualification would indicate he was not a fully qualified DIVS.
3. ICT4 Qualifications are TFLD Qualified.
5. He was a ICT3 Trainee which means he had little or no DIVS experience —or had never served on a Number of Fires as a DIVS
I do not know what the current requirement is it use to be FIVE fires as a DIVS.
All the records after 2009 do not show any DIVS positions.
2008 and 2009 show Trainee only. 2009 was a Project burn associated with the Arizona Academy. Which dose not meet National requirements.
Best I can Do for you WTKTT Actually on Yarnell though assigned as a DIVS the Position Marsh was in was no more than a TFLD Crew and he had ONE CREW and no other recourses not a true DIVS Position.
He also failed to Manage that DIVS in several ways as we have discussed often.
Reply to Bob Powers post on
March 19, 2016 at 10:01 am
>> Bob Powers said…
>>
>> OK some Big Questions—-
Thank you for putting some more ‘eyes’ on those documents, and Eric Marsh’s actual ‘qualification’ documents.
>> Bob Powers also said…
>>
>> Best I can Do for you WTKTT
>>
>> Actually on Yarnell though assigned as a DIVS
>> the Position Marsh was in was no more than
>> a TFLD Crew and he had ONE CREW and no
>> other recourses not a true DIVS Position.
Correct.
And ( as we have discussed already )… Eric Marsh’s actual resource order was NEVER updated or amended in any way to ever indicate he had been ‘promoted to DIVS’ on the Yarnell Hill Fire.
Eric Marsh’s official resource order ( Number C-15.18 ) mysteriously still only says he was ‘ordered up’ for the Yarnell Hill Fire as just an STCR.
From the official and (supposedly) all-inclusive “J- Resource Orders.pdf” document for the Yarnell Hill Fire…
Resource order: C-15.18
Ordered Date/Time: 06/29/13 2054 PNT
Resource Requested: STRIKE TEAM LEADER, CREW
Resource Assigned: MARSH, ERIC (AZ-ADC)
>> Bob Powers also said…
>>
>> He also failed to Manage that DIVS in several
>> ways as we have discussed often.
Correct… which has always left the following ‘question’ on the table…
Since Marsh’s performance as a DIVS on the Yarnell Hill Fire was all adding up to a complete ‘failure’ circa 3:30 PM ( Assignments NOT accomplished ), was he simply trying to ‘salvage the day’ and do something ‘heroic’ so that his ‘evaluation’ as a DIVS on that fire wouldn’t be “Total failure to achieve any objectives for his Division”?
It’s still just one of the *possible* pieces of the puzzle.
Also.. I wanted to be clear about some things…
I was NOT suggesting that PNF employees Aaron Hulburd and KC ‘Bucky’ Yowell were not actually QUALIFIED to be the ‘Final Evaluators’ for Marsh’s DIVS taskbook ( Hulburd ) and Jesse Steed’s STCR taskbook ( Yowell ).
Both Hulburd and Yowell were, apparently, qualifed DIVS.
Their ‘backfill’ Resource Orders say they were both ordered as ‘DIVS’ for the Yarnell Hill Fire so one must assume they both really did have valid red-card quals for that.
It just remains beyond irony that the two men who would end up standing in the Shrine of St. Joseph parking lot and ‘recording’ the last radio transmissions of both Jesse Steed and Eric Marsh were the same two men who had actually been the ‘Final Evaluators’ for both of their DIVS and STCR taskbooks… and that NEITHER of these men would ever be interviewed by anyone.
I was also mistaken above when I said their eventual ‘back-fill’ orders for Yarnell said they were “assisting in body recovery”. That is NOT the case. Their ‘backfill’ orders actually only said their only ‘assignments’ were to “help secure the accident scene”.
Once again… from the official and (supposedly) all-inclusive “J- Resource Orders.pdf”
document for the Yarnell Hill Fire…
Resource Order: 0-160
Ordered Date/Time: 07/03/13 1031 PNT
Resource Requested: DIVISION GROUP SUPERVISOR (DIVS)
Resource Assigned: Yowell, Kc (AZ-PDC)
Special Needs: This is a backfill. KC helped secure the accident scene.
Resource Order: 0-161
Ordered Date/Time: 07/03/13 1033 PNT
Resource Requested: DIVISION GROUP SUPERVISOR (DIVS)
Resource Assigned: Aaron Hulburd (AZ-PDC)
Special Needs: This is a backfill. Aaron helped secure the accident scene.
NOTE: The THIRD “Prescoteer”, Jason Clawson, has NO RESOURCE ORDER in this same document… just like there is NO resource order for Gary Cordes.
According to Arizona Forestry’s own official documentation for the Yarnell Hill Fire… BOTH of these critical ‘players’ on Sunday, June 30, 2013 were never even there.
RTS-Crucial information–Shows that Marsh had a pattern of risk taking when two other HS Supers refused to do that job. He undoubtedly risked his men’s lives there just as he did in Yarnell. Talking to Marsh you would have never thought he would take unnecessary risks of the lives he had to account for. Why would he put his men at risk when two other Supers would not on that fire you mentioned. Marsh’s propensity to risk his men’s lives ran out on the Yarnell Hill scene.
But someone had to order Marsh down to protect structures or at least know Marsh was the man of the moment when risks were involved. If Cordes was in charge of Marsh then he had to be involved somehow in this. Where I am stymied is at Steed’s decision to go along with Marsh and lead those men down. Somehow Steed stands to take more blame than Marsh since it was obvious that Marsh had no brain about dangerous situations and had this trait of being the dare devil with his men’s lives. It seems Steed had the better sense of the two there–yet why would a man of his “Greek God” status give in to a less capable leader?
It goes to human factors on this one for sure. As far as Marsh’s advancement–his neighbor had much to do with that–one that kept signing off and promoting Marsh. It was nice to promote Marsh since he was the neighbor, but the obvious lack of qualifications Marsh had led to the deaths of those men, something we who have been on this for the past several years have to conclude. I now truly believe had Steed been in charge the men would be alive today. Since I was at the very spot they went down I can say that every bit of common sense was disregarded, especially since they went down sometime later than when we could have also made a run for the Helms. I even had a bit of guilt that I could not have stopped them considering the risk I knew was there. But as Willis believed ordinary people can’t get through that type brush and terrain but wild land fighters can. Yet they did not.
Thank you RTS for your input. You are willing to put the truth out as it is. Too many are afraid to do that.
One Point. Marsh was the DIVS Only OPS had the Authority to Move his resources to a new assignment.
According to every thing we have so far both OPS thought the Crew was in the BLACK. As did the IC.
Marsh as DIVS could not change his assignment with out OPS involvement and Approval That seems not to have happened.
There is no mention that their assignment DIVS-A had been changed by IC or OPS.
I see no other orders or plans to move the crew except by Marsh.
He failed the simplest directive of all. Your Assignment Is——-
Maintain Communications with your supervisor. Discuss all anticipated changes with your supervisor. Never abandon your assignment with out full authority of your supervisor.
Bob,
Maybe splitting hairs a bit here on your post: “Marsh was the DIVS Only OPS had the Authority to Move his resources to a new assignment.”
Marsh as a DIVS clearly had the authority to move his resources (GMHS) as long as he clarified and cleared that move with OPS. He did NOT do that prior to his actions.
You eventually explain that. It was your matter-of-fact assertion that a DIVS does NOT have that authority that I responded to.
You are right that is what I was trying to say didn’t make it clear.
Bob, do you believe Marsh absolutely acted on his own. It stands to reason that he had a purpose in deciding to go down and Willis gave us the hint when he said that is what they (GMHS) do–they protect structures. So don’t you imagine that some one had to at minimum encourage them and remind them that is what they need to do protect those structures. No lookout, no idea how hard that brush is to encounter, and no idea it is wrong going downhill toward a wildfire and even more not counting the idea his men[s lives were stake.
Sonny—I have said all along HE ACTED ON HIS OWN.
He had 2 choices move to get to a pick up location.
or Move to set up to at a new attack point. I do not see one of those where
they headed it was a long ways to Glen Isla from the BSR and the fire would be there before they ever got to the ranch it was almost there when they left the Black.
Thus lets move to get to the trucks and call it a day.
I am still there even if some do not agree.
Charlie,
Thanks. All of the GMHS, even Marsh, had an obligation to refuse the assignment based on on viable safety concerns. Among other things, Groupthink and The Abilene Paradox were also fatal influences that day.
And I agree that Steed had much more influence on the fatal outcome because the GMHS safety and welfare was his responsibility as Acting Superintendent.
WTKTT,
On March 17th, you posted: ‘The very idea that an accredited ‘Wildland Training Academy’ would try, in any way, to establish ANY past fire fatality as ‘off limits for discussion’ is absurd.”
Yes, it is absurd, however, it did occur on Wednesday, March 10th, when Amanda Marsh called one of the AZ Fire Academy Course instructors to complain about someone talking about the GMHS and the YH Fire on Tuesday in one of the classrooms.
It all began on Tuesday, March 9th, when former GMHS (2011-2013) and ‘volunteer’ for the Eric Marsh Foundation for WFF’s, Eric Naumetz talked with Amanda Marsh about someone discussing the GMHS actions on the 2012 ‘Nevada Fire (Holloway Fire) and the YH Fire and the GMHS in the classroom. (To your chagrin, the Course title and Instructors will remain anonymous).
Early the following morning, Amanda Marsh called one of those Course Instructors, ranting and raving about the audacity of allowing someone to talk about the YH Fire and the GMHS, and specifically Eric Marsh.
The Course Instructor said he explained to her that there was a vast gulf of different perspectives and perceptions on those issues based on the myriad of WFF experience levels and much, much more in response to her protests and accusations.
The upshot was, she still feels Eric Marsh was/is a hero, a victim of the big-bad-fire, and it was nobody’s fault. And in a way, I get that. Then again, living in denial is not healthy nor conducive to healing.
Amanda Marsh also went to the AZ Wildfire Academy Director Tony Sciacca with the same complaints. He decided that this mischief-maker would have to leave the Academy because of what he said about the YH Fire and the GMHS. This was done WITHOUT getting ‘the other side of the story’ from the miscreant.
This YH Fire and GMHS offender was notified on Wednesday evening and left the Academy on Thursday.
And I am siding with Bob Powers on the entire ‘dale1’ debacle about his incoherent claims of an instructor getting removed from the academy or whatever he said.
Astounding.
An accredited Wildland Firefighting Academy trying to make sure someone doesn’t talk about a particular (historic) Wildland Fire.
This ‘thread’ continues up above…
http://www.investigativemedia.com/please-begin-yarnell-hill-fire-chapter-xix-here/#comment-329171
Some clarity and confirmation about the GMHS ‘Nevada Fire’ discussed during the ‘Squad Boss interviews’ when used as an example of good leadership by all four candidates. The ‘Nevada Fire’ was actually the 2012 Holloway Fire in Nevada and Oregon (according to those in the know) where the Zuni HS Crewmember (filler) deployed her fire shelter and survived with minor burns in spite of odds against such an outcome.
Initially, it was stated (paraphrasing) that the fire suddenly appeared and they had no Safety Zone and it threatened their Crew Carriers and they fired out around themselves and ‘it all worked out.’
According to former GMHS Eric Naumetz (2011-2013) and an Eric Marsh Foundation for WFF’s ‘volunteer’ at he 2016 AZ Wildfire Academy, what occurred was slightly different based on his recollection of the event.
According to former GMHS Naumetz, the fire had been burning very actively for several days and nights, and so the Crews spiked out on the firelines were advised/warned by the IMT to bed down wearing their Nomex PPE.
According to former GMHS Naumetz, the FIRST that night or early morning fire activity occurrence that threatened them resulted when the main fire advanced on the GMHS location and Foreman Jesse Steed happened to wake up and/or be awake to notice it and realize it was not really a threat and went back to sleep.
According to former GMHS Naumetz, the SECOND time Steed noticed the night or early morning fire activity was more intense and much closer. Steed quickly mustered the GMHS and they had to fire out around themselves and their Crew Carriers. So, ‘it all worked out in the end’ as stated in the ‘Squad Boss interviews.’
So then, this is at least as LITTLE bit better than the original inference drawn from reading the ‘Squad Boss interview’ notes where the fire suddenly appeared without warning – even though it kinda did do just that.
So, it APPEARS that the GMHS did NOT have a designated Lookout awake during the nighttime or early morning hours to watch out for, notice, and alert the Crew about active fire behavior threatening their position and their Crew Carriers.
This kinda follows in the pattern of Bad Decisions With Prior Good Outcomes.
Reply to Robert the Second (RTS) post on March 18, 2016 at 2:49 pm
>> RTS said…
>>
>> Some clarity and confirmation about the GMHS ‘Nevada Fire’ discussed
>> during the ‘Squad Boss interviews’ when used as an example of good
>> leadership by all four candidates. The ‘Nevada Fire’ was actually the 2012
>> Holloway Fire in Nevada and Oregon (according to those in the know) where
>> the Zuni HS Crewmember (filler) deployed her fire shelter and survived with
>> minor burns in spite of odds against such an outcome.
Thank you… and you still may be right that this ‘miracle that occurred’ with that Zuni Crewmember might have actually given GM even more of a ‘false impression’ about the capabilities of their fire shelters… and even more of a ‘false impression’ about ‘how big is big enough’ when it comes to a ‘deployment zone’. ( Yes, we all hate that phrase ).
I’ve studied those photographs some more and the only thing I can think of is that because those ‘scrub trees’ were significantly TALLER than the ‘scrub oaks’ in Yarnell ( 12 to 15 feet tall versus 4 to 6 feet tall in Yarnell )… then *MAYBE* ( just maybe ) the fire stayed mostly ‘up in the tree crowns’ while it blew there that area. It obviously never went ‘horizonatal’ at ground level, like it did in Yarnell, or that Zuni FF would be dead.
But regardless… yes… something like that could have easily given anyone who was there and got a chance to ‘visit’ that site to get ‘false impressions’ about what is ‘survivable’ and what is NOT.
>> RTS also said…
>>
>> So then, this is at least as LITTLE bit better than the original inference drawn
>> from reading the ‘Squad Boss interview’ notes where the fire suddenly appeared
>> without warning – even though it kinda did do just that.
>>
>> So, it APPEARS that the GMHS did NOT have a designated Lookout awake
>> during the nighttime or early morning hours to watch out for, notice, and alert
>> the Crew about active fire behavior threatening their position and their Crew Carriers.
>>
>> This kinda follows in the pattern of Bad Decisions With Prior Good Outcomes.
I’m not sure the ‘new’ information totally matches everything that was being said by MULTIPLE GM crewmembers during those 2013 ‘job interviews’. They seemed to indicate whatever happened was when they were actually doing some ‘line building’, and then there was ‘running’ involved, and a ‘drainage’ and ‘fire cresting a hill’ and then ‘everything working out OK in the end’.
Is it possible they had TWO ‘close calls’ on the same damn fire?
According to ALL of these ‘interview notes’ taken together about the Nevada incident we have Granite Mountain Hotshots Andrew Ashcraft, Clayton Whitted and Travis Turbyfill all reporting about something that happened in Nevada involving all of the following…
NEVADA INCIDENT
===============================================================
Line work being done.
Dozer-line involved.
Buggies threatened.
Fire suddenly ( and unexpectedly) cresting ridge(s).
Whitted and Ashcraft RUNNING.
Drainage(s) involved.
Safety Zone BURNOUT.
Ashcraft proud he ‘kept a cool head’
Ashcraft really glad it “All worked OK in the end”.
=================================================================
All that being said… it doesn’t change the ‘conclusions’ to draw and as far as that goes… it’s ‘Deja Vu’ all over again…
Example: From back in Chapter X ( 10 ) of this ongoing discussion…
http://www.investigativemedia.com/yarnell-hill-fire-chapter-x/#comment-193870
*** On November 30, 2014 at 5:35 pm, Robert the Second ( RTS ) said…
WTKTT,
Notwithstanding the BRHS diplomacy,neither they or any IHC should have to be reminded that, especially given the EARLY radical fire behavior witnessed by all that day AND the previous week’s Doce Fire. An experienced IHC just doesn’t forget to post a lookout, ever.
So once again – a CLEAR indication of Bad Decisions With Prior Good Outcomes on the part of the GMHS overhead.
*** On November 30, 2014 at 8:33 pm, WTKTT replied…
The ‘Nevada’ incident that was being talked about to the ‘job interview’ committee when Caldwell, MacKenzie, Turbyfill and Ashcraft were ‘interviewing’ in March 2013 to be Philip Maldonado’s replacement as GM ‘Squad boss’ actually indicates the problem that arose might have been because they had no LOOKOUT that day, either.
There was line building involved… then drainages… then a fire ‘cresting a ridge’ in less than 60 seconds… then there was RUNNING involved and then, ultimately, some kind of ‘burn out the safety zone’ with Caldwell just being glad it (quote) “all worked out OK in the end”.
We still need to know more about that Nevada incident… and whether Darrell Willis could lay his hands on some ‘Unit Logs’ or AARs ( After Action Reports ) as easily as he was able to find Eric Marsh’s Unit Log for the Payson ‘demob’ incident and give that to ADOSH.
*** On November 30, 2014 at 10:35 pm, RTS replied…
WTKTT,
Regarding the “Nevada Incident” where “because they had no LOOKOUT that day, either. There was line building involved… then drainages… then a fire ‘cresting a ridge’ in less than 60 seconds… then there was RUNNING involved and then, ultimately, some kind of ‘burn out the safety zone’ with just being glad it (quote) “all worked out OK in the end” that it all worked out in the end”.
The ONLY reasons they had to run once the fire crested the ridge so quickly and unexpectedly was because they had NO LOOKOUT and they failerd to heed F/O # 3 regarding EXPECTED FIRE BEHAVIOR!
Nevada cheat grass and sage brush are among the most EXTREMELY flashy, volatile, and VERY FAST and a very high Energy Release Component (ERC) fuels in the United States. Just check out the Wildland Fire Lessons Learned site and search under the Incident Review Database for NV burnovers, entrapments, and shelter deployments.
Clearly the ‘Nevada Incident was just one more instance in a “long chain of Bad Decision With Prior Good Outcomes” for the GMHS.
Followup…
Just for reference… here is that original ’roundup’ of the NEVADA INCIDENT testimony as it emerged from interviews with MULTIPLE GM Hotshots during their 2013 job interviews to become Philip Maldonado’s replacement as GM ‘Squad Boss’…
NOTE: Applicant Travis Turbyfill had, by far, the best resume’ and qualifications and the HIGHEST SCORE from all the ‘interviewers’ of any other candidate to replace Maldonado as ‘Squad Boss’… but the job was still give to Robert Caldwell instead.
http://www.investigativemedia.com/yarnell-hill-fire-chapter-x/#comment-184647
**
** INDEX of PDF FILE NAMED GMHS1.PDF
This is just a quick ‘followup’ to the post below regarding that GMHS1.PDF document which contains all the ‘interview notes’ from the time ( in March, 2013 ) when Eric Marsh, Jesse Steed, Clayton Whitted, and Melissa Fousek were interviewing current Granite Mountain Hotshots to find a replacement for departing GM ‘Squad Boss’ Phillip Maldonado.
The document is a little confusing… so here is a quick INDEX of EXACTLY what is contained in that document and what PAGES things are on.
The actual NAME of this PDF document sitting online is GMHS1.PDF
It was referenced in some ‘Prescott News’ publisehd articles and is still sitting at the following unrestricted, public link…
http://www.prescottenews.com/pdfs/GMHS1.pdf
The document is a 24.90 megabyte PDF file.
It’s the one that contains all the ‘interview notes’ that appear to confirm that some kind of ’emergency situation’ developed while GM was working a fire in Nevada which caused them to have to ‘burnout’ their ‘Safety Zone’.
The incident seems to have had some EERIE similarities to what was going to eventually happen in Yarnell on June 30, 2013.
According to ALL of these ‘interview notes’ taken together about the Nevada incident we have Granite Mountain Hotshots Andrew Ashcraft, Clayton Whitted and Travis Turbyfill all reporting about something that happened in Nevada involving all of the following…
NEVADA INCIDENT
===============================================================
Line work being done.
Dozer-line involved.
Buggies threatened.
Fire suddenly ( and unexpectedly) cresting ridge(s).
Whitted and Ashcraft RUNNING.
Drainage(s) involved.
Safety Zone BURNOUT.
Ashcraft proud he ‘kept a cool head’
Ashcraft really glad it “All worked OK in the end”.
=================================================================
The ‘combined’ interview notes do NOT seem to indicate this was just some run-of-the-mill safety area burnout under fully controlled circumstances.
On the contrary.
The ‘combined’ interview notes seem to indicate the Nevada incident was…
Something ‘scary’ ( that required keeping a ‘cool head’ ).
Something ‘unexpected’ ( to have involved people ‘RUNNING’ ).
Something ‘underestimated’ ( to have to burn out a Safety Zone’ ).
Something ‘lucky’ ( to be glad it “Worked out OK in the end’ ).
So here is the quick INDEX of the document just to make it easier to understand what it actually contains and where to FIND things inside of it.
NOTE: The only page of ‘interview notes’ from all FOUR of the ‘Recruitment Committee’ members that seems to be MISSING from this document would be the page of notes taken by Eric Marsh when the interviewee was GM Hotshot Robert Caldwell. ALL other interview note pages are there.
* START OF 53 PAGE PDF DOCUMENT NAMED: GMHS1.PDF
Page 1: Email from Mary Jacobsen to Linda Ripley confirming that the ‘Recruitment Committee’ for finding a replacement for departing GM Squad Boss Philip Maldonado would consist of…
Eric Marsh = Granite Mountain Superintendent
Jesse Steed = Granite Mountain Captain
Clayton Whitted = One of the GM Squad Leaders since May of 2010.
Melissa Fousek = Human Resources Analyst for the City of Prescott
Page 2: Copy of the actual ‘Wildland Squad Boss’ job opportunity announcement that was distributed internally by the Prescott Fire Department.
Page 3: Copy of the CONGRATULATIONS letter sent to Robert Caldwell on April 4, 2013, notifying him of his promotion to GM ‘Squad Boss’, effective four days earlier on March 31, 2013.
Page 4: Copy of email sent from Mary Jacobsen to Dan Fraijo, Eric Marsh, Melissa Fousek and Darrell Willis notifying them that City of Prescott Manager Craig McConnell had just emailed her with approval for in-house posting to fill Philip Maldonado’s ‘Squad Boss’ position.
Page 4: Copy of email from City of Prescott Manager Craig McConnell ( dated 3/18/13 ) giving the OK to fill Philip Maldonado’s position. It is one-line email that says… “Proceed to fill the Wildland Division vacancy created by transfer of Phil Maldonado to Solid Waste.”
Page 5: Copy of the FIVE (numbered) questions that were to be used by the ‘Recruitment Committe’ for each candidate they were going to interview.
Those questions were…
1. Why are you applying for this position.
2. What do you think differentiates you from the other aplicants?
3. Tell us about a time when you had to build your squad’s confidence during your supervisor’s absence.
4. What is your best leadership skill?
5. A Squad menmber has a negative attitude. How do you deal with it.
SIDENOTE: Those are NOT typos up above. Those are word-for-word from official City of Prescott form and they really did spell ‘apllicants’ as ‘aplicants’ and “member” as “menmber”
Page 6: Copy of the RATING SCALE the ‘Recruitment Committee’ was to use for SCORING each of the candidates for the position during their interviews.
9-10 Far Exceeds
7-8 Exceeds
5-6 Proficient
1-4 Needs to Improve
* START OF HANDWRITTEN INTERVIEW NOTES / SCORES
Page 7: Jesse Steed’s notes/scores taken during Andrew Ashcraft’s interview.
Page 7: Jesse Steed’s notes/scores taken during Christopher MacKenzie’s interview.
Page 8: Jesse Steed’s notes/scores taken during Travis Turbyfill’s interview.
Page 9: Jesse Steed’s notes/scores taken during Robert (Bob) Caldwell’s interview.
Pages 10 – 11: Melissa Fousek’s notes/scores taken during Andrew Ashcraft’s interview.
Page 12: Melissa Fousek’s notes/scores taken during Christopher MacKenzie’s interview.
Page 12: Melissa Fousek’s notes/scores taken during Robert (Bob) Caldwell’s interview.
Page 13-16: Melissa Fousek’s notes/scores taken during Travis Turbyfill’s interview.
Page 17: Eric Marsh’s notes/scores taken during Andrew Ashcraft’s interview.
Page 17: Eric Marsh’s notes/scores taken during Christoper MacKenzie’s interview.
Page 18: Eric Marsh’s notes/scores taken during Travis Turbyfill’s interview.
Page 19: Clayton Whitted’s notes/scores taken during Andrew Ashcraft’s interview.
Page 20: Clayton Whitted’s notes/scores taken during Christopher MacKenzie’s interview.
Page 21-22: Clayton Whitted’s notes/scores taken during Travis Turbyfill’s interview.
Page 23: Clayton Whitted’s notes/scores taken during Robert (Bob) Caldwell’s interview.
* END OF HANDWRITTEN INTERVIEW NOTES / SCORES
SIDENOTE: SCORING RESULTS
—————————————————————————————
On page 9 of the PDF file we seem to see the names
of four applicants for the positions and the ‘scores’ they
were getting after the ‘interviews’.
The four applicants ( represented in this document, anyway ) were…
Andrew Ashcraft
Christopher MacKenzie
Travis Turbyfill
Robert (Bob) Caldwell
Page 9 of the PDF file has handwritten notes that say exactly this…
Ashcraft 198
Chris 150
Turby 251
Bob 219
So it would appear that Travis Turbyfill received the highest SCORE
from the interviews… but the ‘Squad Boss’ job still went to Andrew Ashcraft.
—————————————————————————————-
The next few pages in the PDF document are Xerox copies of each of the candidates’ actual typed up ‘Internal Candidate Supplemental Application’ forms where they all declare they were ‘Applying for the position of: Squad Boss’.
They are all standard forms with the City of Prescott logo at the top.
Page 24: Copy of Andrew Ashcraft’s application dated 3/21/13.
Pages 25 – 26: Copy of Andrew Ashcraft’s typed resume’.
Page 27: Copy of Travis (John) Turbyfill’s application dated 3/20/13.
Pages 28 – 33: Copy of Travis Turbyfill’s work history and his resume’.
NOTE: On page 31, Turbyfill list as a ‘reference’ Mr. Philip Maldonado, the one whose job of ‘GM Squad Boss’ is what they are all applying for because Maldonado had recently taken another job with the Prescott Solid Waste Division.
Page 34: Copy of a letter of recommendation for Travis Turbyfill from Tim Snyder, ENGB / Faller “C” / Paramedic – CVFD
Page 35: Copy of a ‘Certificate of Appreciation’ given to Turbyfill by the USMC.
Pages 36-38: Copy of another resume’ submitted by Travis Turbyfill.
Page 39: Another letter or recommendation for Travis Turbyfill from Philip Maldonado himself, the man whose ‘Squad Boss’ job Turbyfill was applying for.
Page 40: Duplicate copy of same letter or recommendation for Travis Turbyfill from Tim Snyder, ENGB / Faller “C” / Paramedic – CVFD
Page 41: Copy of a self-promotion document submitted by Turbyfill named “Five Values of TRAVIS TURBYFILL”
Page 42: Copy of Robert Caldwell’s application dated 3/21/13.
Pages 43 – 45: Copy of Robert Caldwell’s original GMIHC application dated 1/14/10.
At this point… the document contains other job applications being received at this time for people wanting to also ‘move up’ to ‘Lead Crew Member’ for GM.
Pages 46 – 48: Copy of Joe Thurston’s application for ‘Lead Crew Member’ 3/21/13.
Pages 46 – 53: Copy of Wade Parker’s application for ‘Lead Crew Member’ 3/21/13.
* END OF 53 PAGE PDF DOCUMENT NAMED: GMHS1.PDF
And this is probably neither here nor there… but it should be noted that not only did applicant Travis Turbyfill receive the highest score ( by far ) following all the interviews… Travis Turbyfill also included the most complete resume’ and had MORE ‘letters of recommendation’ included than any other applicant… INCLUDING a specific ‘letter of recommendation’ from GM Squad Boss Philip Maldonado himself recommending Turbyfill as his replacement…
…but the job promotion was, in the end, still actually given to Robert Caldwell.
WTKTT,
Based on what you posted, I think you are correct and there may very well have been more than one ‘Nevada Fire’ incident reinforcing their Bad Decisions With Prior Good Outcomes attitude.
It really does sound like, from what Andrew Ashcraft, Clayton Whitted and Travis Turbyfill all reported ( collectively ) to that ‘interview committee’… that the thing they were so glad ‘worked out OK’ really was a DAYLIGHT incident… where they were just building line and suddenly got caught with their asses hanging out ( because they had NO LOOKOUT ).
Maybe. Maybe not.
Thank you, though, for the ‘continuing’ story and even more evidence that something was just not right with this organization known as ‘Granite Mountain’.
See new post above that proves how ‘incestuous’ even all the ‘position task book’ signing was.
Eric Marsh’s DIVS taskbook was ‘signed off’ on ( final evaluator ) by the same man who would then end up recording Eric’s last words with his Helmet Camera.
Prescott National Forest “Fuels Technician” Aaron Hulburd.
And the man who was standing right next to Hulburd while he was recording Eric’s final words is also the same guy who was the ‘final evaluator’ for Jesse Steed’s acual STCR taskbook.
The other “Prescotteer”… KC ‘Bucky’ Yowell.
WTKTT,
This link posted below is NO longer valid as of March 19th.
“It was referenced in some ‘Prescott News’ publisehd articles and is still sitting at the following unrestricted, public link…
http://www.prescottenews.com/pdfs/GMHS1.pdf
The document is a 24.90 megabyte PDF file.”
WTKTT,
Yes, the brush on the ‘Nevada Fire’ was taller than the YH Fire brush, however, the intense outflow winds and the blowtorch fire behavior vaporized the YH Fire brush turning their Deployment Zone into a moonscape.
Not enough study has been done of EITHER incident.
WTKTT,
Enough study for me on both incidents. All I needed were the fire weather conditions, the fire behavior, the photos, and talking to WFF’s that were there.
Okay… then YOU tell ME…
Why ( exactly ) did that girl live?
By just looking at the photos… she should have been toast.
WTKTT,
It was likely because she was BELOW the deadly hot gasses.
Dr. Ted Putnam has always stated that numerous fire fatalities could/would have been prevented if only the entrapped WFF’s had laid down on the ground, avoiding the deadly, hot gases.
He found numerous WFF fire fatalities with their PPE severely scorched FROM THE WAIST UP, FUNNELING THE DEALY HOT GASSES INTO THEIR LUNGS.
Look at the photos again and pages 20, 22, and 26. The deployment site was mostly dirt.
The tool handle did NOT burn.
The mountain mahogany brush limbs and most stems did NOT burn.
Only the leaves burned suggesting wind and short fire residence time as it burned through the brush consuming leaves and minor stems.
“Burnable leaves and limbs of the trees were consumed by fire.” (Page 26)
The brush was 15 to 30 feet from her fire shelter, indicating radiant and NOT convective heat. Radiant heat burns and convective heat kills according to Dr. Bret Butler.
“The shelter showed signs of heat and direct flame contact.” (Page 27)
But nothing indicating sustained, intense flame contact and/or heat.
“Gloves – gloves were found outside the fire shelter. Due to exposure to flames and heat the gloves shrunk approximately 40 percent. Some finger tips were charred.”
(Page 28)
The gloves should/would have charred and/or consumed more with intense flame and/or heat exposure.
And I think these are some of the reasons the Zuni girl survived with as few burns as she did.
Reply to Robert the Second (RTS) post
on March 19, 2016 at 7:03 pm
>> RTS said…
>>
>> It was likely because she was BELOW
>> the deadly hot gasses.
>>
>> The mountain mahogany brush limbs
>> and most stems did NOT burn.
>>
>> Only the leaves burned suggesting
>> wind and short fire residence time as
>> it burned through the brush consuming
>> leaves and minor stems.
Thank you for that. I mean it.
I agree.
That is MOST LIKELY why she survived.
HEAT RISES.
HEIGHT MATTERS.
That ‘burnover’ there in that location PRIMARILY stayed up in the ‘crown’ of those trees.
There were ‘falling embers’ and ignition of whatever fule there WAS on the ground there… but there was never the sort of intense ‘horizontal blow-torch’ effect as there certainly was in Yarnell.
Quick story to illustrate the point…
When I was a teenager… we lived near an airport ( Opa-Locka Airport in Miami Florida ).
One day… a plane crashed on approach to the airport out in a cow pasture that was part of Senator Bob Graham’s “Graham Dairy Farm”.
My father and I jumped in the car and were the first ones there. We hopped a barb-wire fence and ran out to the site of the crash.
My father was a an ex-Navy medic who had tended to the wounded on Omaha Beach… and he immediately started ‘triaging’ people that were lying on the ground.
About 50 feet way, where he cockpit had ended up smashing into a tree… I saw a body on the ground outside the aircraft.
The tree that had stopped the plane was already on fire. It was a ‘Florida Oak’… which resembles regular oaks but because of the climate they don’t grow near as large as regular oaks.
So the ‘foliage’ was about 15-20 feet overhead… and completely on fire.
I crawled on my hands and knees over to the body, under the burning tree. It was the pilot and he was still alive. I pulled my belt off, passed it under his shoulders, used it as a ‘handle’ and dragged him out from under the burning tree.
My POINT is…
There was NO HEAT that I remember.
I remember ’embers’ falling down but wasn’t that concerned with them.
I just don’t remember feeling ANY heat at all… and even this pilot had been under the burning tree for some minutes and not even so much as a first degree burn anywhere on his exposed skin.
My father cussed me good for even doing that… but whether or not the guy was going to die of his injuries ( turned out his back was broken ) I was NOT going to stand there and watch him just burn to death as the limbs fell on him. No way.
But I DO remember being AMAZED, myself, at what a ‘fireball’ was right above our heads… and there just wasn’t any HEAT to speak of there at ground level.
So yea… HEIGHT MATTERS because HEAT RISES.
If I had STOOD UP while doing this… instead of crawling on the ground both going in and coming out… might have been a different story.
Maybe even just 2 or 3 feet above our heads the air temp might have been enough to fry our lungs.
But as far as ‘study’ goes… I DO think this Zuni FF incident should more ‘up front’ and is worth even more ‘looks’… just on the off chance that SOME WFFs are looking at those same pictures and thinking they define any kind of ‘viable deployment site’.
This Zuni FF was just “Lucky as Hell”… and WFFs need to UNDERSTAND that.
Followup… no one died in that plane crash. It was a mid-range two-engine Beechcraft with just 8 passengers. A lot of ‘bleeders’ from head injuries and limb lacerations… but no amputations or ‘kill’ injuries. The pilot eventually recovered from his broken back and returned to flying.
WTKTT,
Good story. It certainly made a lasting impression on you. Thanks for sharing.
The other required training I would propose are reading the GMHS autopsy reports to solidify that this is what may happen to you if you fail to know, understand, heed, and follow the WFF Rules
If you have even a high school degree and memorized facts there or you can spout off hundreds of meaningless sports statistics, you can memorize the WFF Rules.
Reply to Robert the Second (RTS) post
on March 19, 2016 at 11:18 pm
>> RTS said…
>>
>> Good story. It certainly made a lasting
>> impression on you. Thanks for sharing.
I was raised Catholic. It was the day of my ‘First Communion’. If you don’t know what that is… suffice to say you end up all dressed in WHITE pants and a WHITE shirt. We were out in the front yard ‘celebrating’ that even when the plane crashed.
By the end of the day… my shiny WHITE clothes were SOAKED in RED BLOOD.
So yea… I remember it.
The other ‘relevant’ detail is that, in this case, there was absolutely NO WIND. It was a dead-calm Florida summer afternoon.
I remember that because as we were running towards the crash the thick-black smoke from the fires already burning was going absolutely straight-up. No deviation… and I remember thinking they looked just like the pictures of the Hiroshima mushroom cloud… going STRAIGHT up.
I guess the only real relevance is the ‘heat transfer’ reference and how the HEIGHT can make a difference.
If there is no WIND pushing all that heat DOWN towards the ground… and it is staying in the ‘crown’ of the trees… then maybe ( just maybe ) there is a ‘survivable’ space right there near the ground. Depends on the HEIGHT of the fireball above you, and the duration.
>> RTS also said…
>>
>> The other required training I would
>> propose are reading the GMHS autopsy
>> reports to solidify that this is what may
>> happen to you if you fail to know,
>> understand, heed, and follow the
>> WFF Rules
As Woodsman has so aptly already said… “I would agree more than 100 percent but that’s the upper limit”.
I have proposed that before myself.
I ( me, personally ) have NO PROBLEM with it becoming a REQUIREMENT for anyone who thinks it’s going to be ‘fun’ to go out ‘camping’ and scraping the ground and getting PAID for it to be REQUIRED to read ALL of those autopsy reports.
Including the ones that I know you have read and probably made you throw up in your mouth a little. I know I did.
I’m someone who was made to watch the movie MECHANIZED DEATH 4 times in Drivers Education class before someone thought it would be OK for me to get behind the wheel of a car.
Reading ‘reports’ about what might ‘actually’ happen if you ‘fuck up’ out fighting a fire… and what your loved ones will have to deal with… would have the same effect… and I have NO PROBLEM with that.
>> RTS also said…
>>
>> If you have even a high school
>> degree and memorized facts there
>> or you can spout off hundreds of
>> meaningless sports statistics, you
>> can memorize the WFF Rules.
See above.
You could LAUGH at all the “Hillbilly Rules”… but one good reading session with those autopsy reports and you can bet you will ‘remember’ them the next time someone making slightly more shit money than the shit money you are making says “Hey… let’s leave this safe black and see if we can beat the fire to that Ranch over there!”
WTKTT,
Quick question to tie a loose end for me: Was Phillip Maldonado, who wanted to leave the crew & work the refuse business instead, the crew member who complained that GM/Marsh ‘always had something to prove and was tired of it?’ Or was that someone else?
Thanks
Woodsman
Marsh did prove something–that his risk taking could kill him and his crew.
Woodman,
It was someone else. It was Brandon Bunch who quit in 2013 after the Thompson Ridge Fire (SNF) in NM.
Woodsman… RTS is correct.
It was FF ‘Brandon Bunch’ who is quoted in Kyle Dickman’s book as saying the reason he wanted to ‘transfer out’ of Granite Mountain was because of Eric Marsh’s incessant “Esse Quam Videri” bullshit… and always feeling like he had to PROVE something to someone ( at the crew’s expense ).
However… also according to Dickman… that is NOT why Brandon Bunch actually left GM after the Thompson Ridge fire. It was for personal reasons and in order to ‘hang on’ to a relationship. Not uncommon in the WFF world. Few ‘couples’ can really stand the schedule… especially when there are babies/kids involved.
What we do NOT know is WHY Philip Maldonado actually chose to leave GM. Yes… he moved to a more steady job ( and better pay and benefits? ) with Prescott City Sanitation… but the TIMING is still odd and we still don’t know if there were ‘other reasons’ why Maldonado was ‘bailing out’ of GM.
**
** SO YOU WANT TO BE A HOTSHOT?
**
** Well then… ( according to the information at the Yarnell Memorial )…
**
** “You MUST take orders, and carry those orders out at ALL times, day after day.”
>> On September 29, 2013 at 6:52 pm, Tex (Sonny) Gilligan said…
>>
>> Today I visited the memorial put up near the Ranch Club Restaurant.
>>
>> I took time at the memorial to read what it takes to be a hot shot.
>>
>> They started out with “A Hot Shot must strictly obey orders.”
>>
>> For instance, in this case, although it had to be apparant to some of those
>> men that they were absolutely headed to a very higly dangerous area, they
>> were obliged to do that.
>>
>> Most were of a younger age, so I could see that they might blindly follow orders.
>>
>> I look back when I was a miner at the Ward Mine back in the 70’s I had quit that
>> mine after watching 12×12 timbers mushroom on their tops. The mine foreman
>> took us in past these and said no worry, more would be put in and it was a safe
>> situation. Well 6 other miners agreed, but I instead picked up my check. A week
>> or so later I heard the mine caved at that point. Six men and old Bill were caught
>> in there and barely found a way back out through an air shaft and crawling 600 yards.
>>
>> Just to say, I likely would not make a good Hot Shot.
Just for reference, and the fact that this “Hotshots and ORDERS” topic is being revisted… below is an exact copy of the full TEXT about ‘Hotshots’ that is ( and is still ) being presented to the PUBLIC via that glass-front sandwich board at this ‘Yarnell Memorial’.
On July 7, 2013, Arizona BLM representative Dean Fernandez went up in a helicopter and took dozens of post-fire aerial photos of the Yarnell area, the deployment area, and the ‘anchor point’ area where GM had been working most of the day.
3 days later, on July 10, 2013, Dean Fernandez returned to Yarnell and took even more pictures. On that day, he happened to take photos of the new ‘Yarnell Fire Memorial’ that had already appeared in a vacant lot next to the Ranch House Restaurant.
This ‘memorial’ consisted of a number of glass-front ‘sandwich boards’, with photos of the men who died and some information about them and the organization they worked for.
One of those sandwich boards already contained a ‘printout’ of what appears to have been some kind of job application brochure that the Prescott Fire Department already had prepared to hand out to anyone wanting to apply for a job as a Granite Mountain Hotshot. It contained information about the GM organization, its place in the Prescott Fire Department, and what would be ‘expected’ of anyone applying for a job with the Granite Mountain Hotshot organization.
That’s where we find this offical “What it takes to be a Hotshot” text, as printed by the Prescott Fire Department. The actual title of that section is “So You Want To Be A Hotshot”.
It is at the top of that section where it says this…
“You must take orders, and carry those orders out at all times, day after day.”
ALL of these Dean Fernandez photos are in the following SAIT Dropbox folder…
SAIT Dropbox / Photos and Videos / Fernandez photos
https://www.dropbox.com/sh/02ue6bnjp6nazkm/AAB_59PXlAuhlkl2-quFH5_Oa/Photos%20and%
20Video/Fernandez%20photos?dl=0
The photograph of the glass-front sandwich board with the ‘text’ on it is this one…
Dean Fernandez photo 20130710_125336.jpg
That ‘Memorial’ by the Ranch House Restaurant, including the one with this ‘So You Want To Be A Hotshot’ blurb and the “You must take orders” text… was eventually moved farther north on Highway 89, to an empty lot where Shrine Road meets Highway 89. This is now supposed to be the PERMANENT home for the town of Yarnell’s OWN ‘Memorial to the men who died’.
There has already been a DEDICATION CEREMONY for this ‘memorial’ at that location.
So the TEXT being presented on that original sandwich board is, now and in the future, what the PUBLIC is being asked to believe about ‘Hotshots’.
Here is the complete content of what is printed on that glass-front sandwich board at the Yarnell Memorial Site, just as it is shown in Dean Fernandez’s photo. It also included a printed copy of Arizona Forestry’s “72-Hour Report” about the fire…
——————————————————————————————————
( Granite Mountain Logo at the top of the display )
The Prescott Fire Department is proud to host the Granite Mountain Interagency Hotshot Crew. From our beginning as a fuels mitigation crew in 2002, through the formation of Crew 7 ( Type 2 I/A ) in 2004, and our transition into the elite Hotshot community in 2008, our goal has been to provide our customers with “Excellence in Service” through our superior physical conditioning, our commitment to training, innovative problem solving, and our history of safe and aggressive fire suppression.
* About the Crew
Granite Mountain IHC consists of dedicated people of varying age and diverse backgrounds. Our common bond is our love of hard work and arduous adventure. We believe in rigorous physical and mental training, which allows us to perform at the optimum level in any location and under any circumstances. We are routinely exposed to extreme environmental conditions, long work hours, long travel hours and the most demanding of fireline tasks. Comforts such as beds, showers and hot meals are not always common. Problem solving, teamwork, ability to make decisions in a stressful environment and being nice are the attributes of our crewmembers. We are grateful for our opportunities to excel and proud to represent the citizens of the City of Prescott and the Prescott Fire Department.
Granite Mountain Hotshots provides defensible space on private parcels, as well as City owned open space. We also use prescribed fire to treat fuels on both City property and National Forest land.
* Training
Granite Mountain IHC is very proud of our tradition of providing both excellent classroom and field training to our crewmembers. In addition to our annual 80 hour critical training and refresher, we offer many NWCG courses throughout the season. We almost always have at least one person working on a position taskbook on every assignment. As members of the Prescott Fire Department, we also have opportunities for additional training such as EMS and Technical Rescue. Granite Mountain provides a training cadre that is active both in house and at the Arizona Wildfire and Incident Management Academy.
* Physical Fitness Program
The nature of our work requires us to endure physical hardships beyond most people’s experiences. Environmental extremes, long hours, bad food, and steep, rugged terrain demand that we train early and often by running and hiking, doing core exercises, yoga, and weight training. We must pass the Arduous Work Capacity Test ( Pack Test ) as a condition of hire. Also, we have a fitness goal of a 2.5 mile run in 10 minutes 35 seconds, 40 sit-ups in 60 seconds, 25 pushups in 60 seconds, and 7 pull ups.
* So You Want To Be A Hotshot
Perhaps you should really know what a hotshot crew does. This statement is prepared for your study and serious consideration to purposely discourage those who might be misinformed or those better equipped both mentally and physically to apply for less demanding, but equally important work with the Forest Service. We do have many jobs that pay the same and are equally challenging, equally rewarding.
The very tern “hotshots” means many things to many people. To those of us who recruit, train and work with hotshots, the job is anything but glamorous. From experience we know that fighting fire is about 90 percent physical for the Hotshot crew. The nature of the work is demanding. Only those of high strength, agility, coordination and stamina can cope with the sustained work required of the average hotshot.
As a Hotshot, you will be required to not only produce physically, but to live together, eat together, and sleep together in close, crowded conditions. Complete compatibility is in itself a difficult challenge.
You must take orders, and carry those orders out at all times, day after day.
The emotional strain is extreme, and the competitive pressure of your peer group is always present.
For a crew is only as good as its weakest member.
When not on fire duty, you will be required to engage in daily structured physical fitness training that consists of a minimum 2 – 3 mile run, coordinated exercises, push-ups, sit-ups, pull-ups, rope climbs squat thrusts, abdominal stretching and the obstacle course.
The rest of your day will be like every other day. Hard labor using hand tools ( axe, shovel, saw ) and usually piling brush, digging holes, picking up garbage, cleaning toilets, sharpening tools, and similar tasks. You will be expected to be ready at all times to answer fire calls on the District, Forest, or out of Region. This requires you to be on 24 hour alert.
On the fire line the hothshot crews are singled out for the hazardous, difficult assignments. It is normal for Hotshots to be on shift 32 hours before relief is available. Succeeding shifts of 14-18 hours are normal. You will normally be “spiked” out away from the main fire camp, thirsty, hungry and sleeping on rocky ground, too often without proper sleeping bags. You’ll be filthy, exhausted, underfed and hurting. There will be no privacy, no sanitation, no shelter, no laundry and no doctors, however first aid is available.
The Hotshot crew is so named because of the need for tough, knowledgeable, hard individuals who can be sent ahead of the main contingent of ordinary labor crews and independently drive holding lines around critical segments of the fire, hold their lines and survive. You will be required to pack heavy loads up and down extremely mountainous terrain ( hose packs of 70 pounds ), fell large trees with either power saws or cross-cut saws, buck trees into shorter lengths, haul blocks of logs, remove dead/down and brush out of the fires path, dig ( 18 inches to 1 feet ) fireline to mineral soil, construct trenches, haul hose, pack heavy portable pumps and tanks, and burn-out your line before the fire gets there, and then start extinguishing spot fires over your line. That’s not the end of it. The dirty work of mop-up begins. Digging and scraping all hot spots out and extinguishing the heat source. Other features of the job are living in and breathing smoke for days, contending with poison oak, poison ivy, poison sumac, cactus, thorns, ticks, gnats, flies, snakes, scorpions, spiders, rolling rocks and falling trees and debris. It’s dirty, hot, dusty and freezing cold.
Obviously we’re looking for superior individuals to fill out hotshot crews.
If you can live and excel with the job I’ve described then we want you.
We care not about your sex, color, race or religion.
But if for any reason you cannot live up to these standards, then I encourage you to do yourself and the rest of the crew a favor and apply for other work.
Author: Unknown.
( The rest of the text contains an exact copy of the Arizona Forestry 72-Hour report from SAIT Leader Jim Karels regarding the Yarnell Hill Fire ).
————————————————————————————————-
So that’s it for what is actually ON that ‘sandwich board’ at this Yarnell Memorial… bad grammar included.
They might has well have added a ‘postscript’ to that “So You Want To Be A Hotshot” sections that said…
“…and if, after reading all of the above, you are STILL crazy enough and/or desperate enough for employment that you want to do this work for less money per hour than you could make working at a McDonalds in San Francisco… then STEP RIGHT UP! You are EXACTLY the kind of ‘crazy’ that we are looking for here at the Prescott Fire Department”.
Whoops… broken link in the message above.
ALL of the Dean Fernandez photos, including the one of that ‘sandwich board’ at the Yarnell Memorial… are in the following SAIT Dropbox folder…
SAIT Dropbox / Photos and Videos / Fernandez photos
https://www.dropbox.com/sh/02ue6bnjp6nazkm/AAB_59PXlAuhlkl2-quFH5_Oa/Photos%20and%20Video/Fernandez%20photos?dl=0
My guess is Marsh was the original author of that bullshit job description.
Woodsman
I’m not sure where that came from… but it appears to be some kind of ‘famous’ blurb that came out of the U.S. Forestry Service itself.
The ‘giveaway’ is in the first paragraph…
——————————————————————–
Perhaps you should really know what a hotshot crew does. This statement is prepared for your study and serious consideration to purposely discourage those who might be misinformed or those better equipped both mentally and physically to apply for less demanding, but equally important work with the Forest Service. We do have many jobs that pay the same and are equally challenging, equally rewarding.
——————————————————————–
Key phrase: “WE do have many jobs ( in the Forest Service ) that pay the same…”
My guess is that kind of phrasing would not have been coming from anyone in a Municipal Fire Department…. because THEY actually do NOT have ‘many equivalent-pay jobs in the Forest Service’ to offer someone.
SIDENOTE: Even though this blurb is actually trying to DISCOURAGE a whole range of applicants from even applying… and it does mention ‘the pay’… they never actually tell you what shit money you will actually be making for the work they are about to describe.
They could have easily added….
If you need good money… be a plumber.
Of course… the ‘blurb’ also doesn’t mention how easy it appears to be to ‘pad’ your timesheets, either, especially on the day of a demob when no one seems to ever check that even though your timesheets said it would take you until 10:30 PM to arrive back at base and do the ‘stand down’ work… everyone was home for dinner or out drinking at bars on Whiskey Row by 7:00 PM.
WTKTT,
I agree. Some of it is a little over the top. Maybe it was ‘enhanced’ by GM leadership? Bob, RTS, or Gary would know how much of it is standard USFS. I have read similar ‘job descriptions’ from different IHC ‘proper’ and it has similar characteristics….former federal HS’s would know. The ‘must obey orders at all times no matter what’ seems a little ‘off’ to me. That may play back to the assertion about the perception of that’s what the military does, so we should too’ that we were discussing.
Woodsman
Followup…
All I was trying to do by posting that ‘blurb’ which is ACTUALLY on an ‘official’ MEMORIAL placard was…
1. Show exactly what it says about “taking orders… ALL the time… ALL day”.
2. Show the ‘branding’ that was part of the ‘official’ job application process coming out of the Prescott Fire Department.
Regardless of whether Eric Marsh himself was the ‘author’ of that ‘blurb’… you KNOW that he had to have APPROVED it as the ‘message’ he wanted applicants to receive.
Marsh himself was HEAVY into the ‘branding’ of this ‘product’ he created and he was selling.
This is the same guy who had the Granite Mountain Logo laminated onto the face of his own BK radio ( it only partially melted away when he burned to death )… and who spent hours in a metal shop fashioning tail-lights for the GM Supt Truck that look like the GM logo… and he is also the guy who ( in his supposedly famous “my way or the highway” style ) was reported to have gotten into knock-down drag-out fights with people about even the simplest of things like what the fucking T-Shirts were going to look like.
WTKTT,
you said:
“1. Show exactly what it says about “taking orders… ALL the time… ALL day”.
2. Show the ‘branding’ that was part of the ‘official’ job application process coming out of the Prescott Fire Department.”
Which prompted me to check into some things. I looked at every IHC in the Southwest and reviewed all of their websites, if they had one. These included: Carson, Fort Apache, Geronimo, Mt Taylor, Navajo, Prescott (a USFS crew!), Santa Fe, Zuni, and Smokey Bear. I reviewed each of their websites and read the following if available: vision statements, mission statements, job descriptions, and SOP’s. What I was looking for in particular was any reference to a phrase similar to “must obey orders at all times.”
This sampling of current IHC’s from the Southwest (9 crews), I found only ONE reference to anything similar to the phrase “must obey orders at all times.” The Santa Fe IHC, (which by the way wins the award by astronomical distance of the greatest most detailed well thought-out and relevant content), included at the top: “Insubordination will not be tolerated.”
Wiki say about insubordination: ” the act of willfully disobeying one’s superior. Refusing to perform an action that is unethical or illegal is not insubordination; neither is refusing to perform an action that is not within the scope of authority of the person issuing the order.”
My question: How about NOT obeying an order that has a high probability of getting you injured or killed? Would that be OK or not? I’m with Tex/Sonny/Charlie on this one – count me out if that is an organizational requirement and by the way, fuck you!
Wiki is not the end all be all of definitions but it’s something.
I’d say that almost all of the IHC’s today DO NOT have as their #1 SOP as “must follow orders at all times.” My opinion is it’s quite unique to GM. No other crew that I’ve found stresses the obey order rule. I have reason to believe that it was unique to GM and NOT every IHC across the land.
Also note: apparently GM IHC was hoping to employ Olympic class athletes if their goal was a 2.5 mile run in 10 min 35 seconds. 4 min 14 sec split on a 2.5 mile run? Damn! Hardcore!!
One last note: I know a guy who served on Santa Fe in the past. You all do as well. Hell of an SOP handbook they have!! Kudos!
Woodsman
Woodsman,
The “must obey orders at all times” edict was likely a GMHS thing. That sounds to me like maybe something GMHS Foreman (Marine) Steed came up with.
He subscribed to the “you just do what I f**king tell you do do” model.
And IF it was used on other Crews, it would likely be in their Standard Operating Procedures (SOP’s) and not in their Mission Statements.
Insubordination only applies and can be enforced by only your IMMEDIATE supervisor and NOT on the firelines.
We USFS employees were always told that things like “obey now and grieve later” UNLESS the order(s) were (1) ILLEGAL, (2) UNSAFE, (3) IMMORAL, or (4) UNETHICAL.
So, conversely, if the order(s) were LEGAL, SAFE, MORAL, or ETHICAL, then you were obliged to follow them.
Pretty straightforward.
Reply to Robert the Second (RTS) post on
March 18, 2016 at 12:25 pm
>> RTS said…
>>
>> Pretty straightforward.
Until you are standing on a ridge with a BETTER view of the fire than your Superintendent who has recently recovered from a biking accident and is now playing ‘DIVS’ for one of the only times in his 46 years of age… and the ‘argument’ becomes over that single word… SAFE.
SAFE is easy to define for one person who is perhaps, already only a few hundred yards away from a ‘Ranch’… but can mean something totally different when you are over TWO FUCKING MILES away.
That was the ESSENCE of the ‘argument’ between Marsh and Steed. Was it SAFE?… or NOT?
According to all credible reports… Jesse did NOT think it was… and was SAYING so.
But Marsh’s ( still mysterious ) agenda prevailed.
CORRECTION for my post above.
I type ’46’ instead of ’43’ for Marsh’s age.
Eric Marsh was 43 years old on the day he died… not 46.
RTS,
“The “must obey orders at all times” edict was likely a GMHS thing. ” — Agree.
“That sounds to me like maybe something GMHS Foreman (Marine) Steed came up with.” — Not true.
Your perception of what it is like to be in the military is wrong. Look at the record, it was Steed who tried to tell Marsh he didn’t want to do it. It was Marsh who said basically multiple times: “What do I have to do to put you in this used car TODAY?”
The hypothesis GM having a former Marine as Capt & this military influence helped kill them is wrong. The pressure to keep your boss happy who may play a role in your career advancement coupled with the fact that your boss is a “my way or the highway” control freak who’s going to blow a gasket if he doesn’t get his way….these issues had way, way more to do with Steeds decision to finally move the crew against his own wishes. not because former military personnel are sheep who will do anything you tell them to.
That assumption is wrong and misleading.
Woodsman
Woodsman,
I guess we are going to have to ‘agree to disagree’ on the topic of the Marine Corps influence on following orders.
I have interviewed several Marine WFF’s, including two retired Marine colonels and a HS Supt. These Marine colonels, the HS Supt. and the majority of the others stated confidently that Steed was ‘following orders’ like a good Marine when he took the GMHS off the hill when they left their perfectly good SZ.
Some of these Marine WFF’s were quite adamant about it, like: “F**king-A that’s why he took them down there, he’s a Marine following orders.”
Here is an excerpt from the military.com website on the YH Fire and Marine Corps issue.
“On June 30, … the [three GMHS Marines] … had a mission to accomplish [to] … protect the community of Yarnell — and just like their time in the Corps, they were willing to lay down their lives to achieve that goal.”
It doesn’t specifically address ‘following orders’ yet it accounts for the fatal result of following orders, ‘just like their time in the [Marine] Corps, they were willing to lay down their lives to achieve that goal.’
http://www.military.com/daily-news/2013/07/24/marine-veterans-among-19-firefighters-killed.html
I agree with you that Steed was opposed to leaving their SZ, however, he never really used DIRECT SPEECH to relay that to DIVS Marsh, even though he was his supervisor.
Instead he used what’s referred to as ‘mitigating speech’ or hinting throughout much of the discussing our options Crew net conversation.
In the McKenzie video clips, he mentions the fire location to Marsh rather than being direct about how he felt about leaving their SZ, i.e “checking on your comfort level.”
According to the April 3, 2015 azcentral.com article posted below, Steed once again used ‘mitigating speech’ or hinting by stating they are ‘in the black’ several times.
Even Steed telling Marsh that ‘we can’t make it’ or ‘we’re not going to make it’ is basically still ‘mitigating speech’ because Steed is hoping that Marsh gets it, that it’s not safe. Marsh doesn’t ‘get it.’
Direct speech would have been something like “I know you cannot see the fire behavior as well as us and with what I see, we are NOT leaving this SZ until the fire pulses.’
And there were two other Marines on the hill that day.
Just like in aviation mishaps when the Chief Pilot is flying the plane, Steed is deferring to Marsh, a higher authority, based on his Marine Corps training and experience.
As in aviation mishaps, there are far fewer fatalities when the Co-Pilot or Second in Charge is flying.
Otherwise it is ‘mitigating speech’ and deference to authority, the Chief Pilot or in the case of the GMHS on the YH Fire, deference to the DIVS and actual GMHS Superintendent.
There was NO real separation in authority because the GMHS was running their operation on Crew Net and NOT on the Tactical Net.
It should have been ‘GMHS, DIVS A’ but instead it was likely ‘Jesse’ (or Steed) ‘Eric’ (or Marsh) on their Crew Net.
It was NOT DIVS Marsh, it was Eric. It was NOT GMHS, it was Jesse. There is a big difference here.
Roxanne Warneke said she believes her husband would only have abandoned a safe ridge and hiked into danger if he was directed to do so. “Orders,” she explained. “HE WAS A MARINE WHO WAS USED TO FOLLOWING ORDERS.” (EMPHASIS ADDED) (azcentral June 30, 2015)
I’m standing my ground on the Marine Corps influence to follow orders.
RTS,
Stand your ground all you want. Knock yourself out.
The Marines you interviewed are going to say their brother was a good Marine no matter what. No matter what. You don’t understand what it means to be a Marine. Marine Colonel? Please.
I agree with what you say about mitigating speech. That’s because Marsh was his boss and Steed hoped to move up in the world. He had a lot at stake to keep people above him happy. Wasn’t the first time I’m sure.
Condemning veterans as being a liability because of the influence of their prior military service is flawed and counterproductive. Don’t take the simple assumption here. You are capable of much more. You owe yourself and those you train or have influence over to think more deeply here. Talk to the real military if you want perspective – the lower ranking NCO’s. I know this, friend. I encourage you to look further into to this than you have.
If you choose not to listen to me, that’s ok. We can agree to disagree. I’m comfortable with the fact that we have the same goals – firefighter safety.
Woodsman
Woodsman,
You posted: “Condemning veterans as being a liability because of the influence of their prior military service is flawed and counterproductive.”
I am NOT “condemning veterans as being a liability” because of their military training. I am SUGGESTING that it MAY have had an influence on their decision to move from safety.
I examined and studied and applied their DECISION MAKING based on their Marine Corps training and experiences.
I looked into this quite a bit and talked to some lower ranking NCO’s and several lower level Marines AND two Marine Colonels, over a dozen total. The mix was about 50% yes, it influenced him/them and 50% no, it did NOT influence him/them.
Remember, there were two other Marines.
Roxanne Warneke said she believes her husband would only have abandoned a safe ridge and hiked into danger if he was directed to do so. “Orders,” she explained. “HE WAS A MARINE WHO WAS USED TO FOLLOWING ORDERS.” (EMPHASIS ADDED) (azcentral June 30, 2015)
This man’s wife knew he was trained as a Marine to FOLLOW ORDERS.
I do know that Steed’s leadership attitude toward his Squad, as a Squad Boss, was “you do what I f**king tell you to do.”
Even though the GMHS loved working for Steed, I believe that his strict attitude prevailed and influenced the fatal outcome on 30 June 2013.
“Being a Marine is a state of mind.” and “Once a Marine, always a Marine” were in this publication titled “Leading Marines.”
http://www.marines.mil/Portals/59/Publications/MCWP%206-11%20Leading%20Marine.pdf
It’s a Human Factors theory worth pursuing.
RTS,
I really am trying to help you. Once again we are running out of space.
You have proffered the hypothesis that Steed’s military service, Marine Corps specifically, was a factor in the death of the crew (our decision to leave the safety of the black.) You said you have interviewed a dozen Marines of various ranks. What about the other 15 crew members? What was their reason for doing what they did? Could it be the Prescott FD culture? Perceived IHC culture. They weren’t former military, why didn’t one of them speak up?
Steed’s widow said her husband follows orders like a good Marine and this you take as supporting evidence? The widow seeks to find a reason why a tragedy happens and gain understanding. She’s not going to say my husband was an idiot.
“I looked into this quite a bit and talked to some lower ranking NCO’s and several lower level Marines AND two Marine Colonels, over a dozen total. The mix was about 50% yes, it influenced him/them and 50% no, it did NOT influence him/them.”
So 50/50 huh? Do you actually believe you can draw a conclusion with this?
“I do know that Steed’s leadership attitude toward his Squad, as a Squad Boss, was “you do what I f**king tell you to do.””
So the requests for action you made to your crew for 29 years were optional? They must have been because if they were not, then you just told your crew “you do what I f**king tell you to do.” If this is not the case then you have lost all credibility.
I have attempted to explain to you why you are wrong on this specific point. It wouldn’t bother me but for the fact that we owe it to future firefighters to know the absolute truth about the matter and not made up speculation because we don’t understand the military and we are part of an organizational structure that tries to resemble the military.
Woodsman
Woodsman,
So sensitive.
You posted: “What about the other 15 crew members?” I know that former Payson HS Scott Norris told guys on that Crew that the GMHS did things a lot different than Payson HS. Don’t know about the others yet, still seeking the truth.
“What was their reason for doing what they did? Could it be the Prescott FD culture?”
Absolutely SOME influence here. Jet listen to PFD Wildland BC Willis in his YHF Fatality Site news conference video.
“Perceived IHC culture.” Possibly.
Marsh told many of us that he/they had to prove themselves. I told him in 2009, that they had already done that when they achieved national recognition as a Type I IHC in the Fall of 2008.
“They weren’t former military, why didn’t one of them speak up?”
I’m sure some of them spoke up. And I already told you Steed’s leadership style. And this: “If this is not the case then you have lost all credibility.” Really? Why the f**k would I post something like that I knew it to be false and incredible?
I did NOT talk about Steed’s widow and that her husband follows orders like a good Marine and I did NOT take this as supporting evidence.
You also posted: “So the requests for action you made to your crew for 29 years were optional?”
My leadership style was the Team Member one and NOT the Groupthink, kiss ass, go along to get along Team Player style. I disdain Team Players.
I did my best to follow the leadership styles of Special Forces units as far back as the Spartans and the Revolutionary War. I encouraged these Hot Shots to be part of the solution and have ownership in the plan, always.
Major Phillip M. Johnson (2001) in his paper titled “Effects of Groupthink on Tactical Decision-Making” for the U.S. Army School of Advanced Military Studies. found that the one sure way to encourage Groupthink was for the leader to tell his unit, “This is the plan I want to follow” and then proceed to lay out his plan.
So, in the converse, the way to AVOID Groupthink is to give your unit Leader’s Intent and let them come up with options, knowing that you have the ultimate say. And sometimes they came up with a better plan.
Thanks for ‘trying to help [me] out.’ You’d better give yourself a rest My Friend. I’ll take this all the way, wherever you want to go.
OK for those of you who have never been a HOT SHOT.
The Job descriptions are true and represent the job. The Pay is around $13.00
per hour for a first time GS-3 Crewman going up from there.
25% Hazard Pay for all hours the Fire is Not Controlled— + $3.25
All hours over 8 at time and a half—$19.50 per hour.
In a good fire season a GS 3 will make in 4 months 10 to 12 Thousand Dollars.
I do not think any one at McDonalds makes that kind of money.
But Putting the Money aside the Benefits for a fulltime employee in a Fire Tech. Job is above most jobs with just a collage education.
Health insurance The Government pays 2/3 you pay a 1/3 during your working carrier and into retirement.
Retirement at age 57—Ruffly 37 years 75% of your base pay.
But the point you all are missing is simply the Leadership of a Hot Shot crew.
Over 100 Crews most have great leaders with a solid background in Fire.
They lead their crews every year and are highly respected. Their crews are supervised at high performance and extremely Safe. The Superintendent and Asst. are the top of the list in training and qualifications.
Back in the day as today these HS Leaders moved from the Crews to District and Forest Fire Management Officers and In Fire teams to OPS and IC.
Including Safety Officers and DIVS.
The vast majority are leaders in the highest regard as a crewman yes you could follow them any where and never have to question their orders.
Marsh and Steed did not pay there dues they would have never made it to where they were in The FS or BLM. Many apply for those supervisor jobs but only the top ones are promoted. With in a short time they show their worth or they are gone. I saw three in my time removed from the Superintendent and Asst. Positions within 6 months of hire and two right in the middle of Summer.
The Strength of the supervisors is well known in the FS. A Asst. highly qualified can run a crew as well as the Superintendent. If a Superintendent is week it shows very fast. The Upper staff will know it fairly soon and change the problem.
I am trying to say here that Hot Shots are a Highly trained crew with Highly qualified Supervisors. They look out for their crews and take care of them.
we have had very few HS Crews burned over killing members in the past 50 years.
The record of hours worked verses injuries and Fatalities is one of the highest and most respected in the Wild Land Fire community.
100 HOT SHOT CREWS every summer through out the west their main job is fire suppression and they spend 2/3 of their time on fires.
I am sorry to say– But the Granit Mountain Hot Shots were not the cream of the crop in the Hot Shot world. I would class them in the middle of some of the type 2 crews.
Because the entire crew died it put a undeserved black mark on the other 100 IRHSC. This was a non Federal crew with out the leadership qualifications and history. The ability to train and move into the leadership positions with a large application pool.
Most current Superintendents today are already Qualified DIVS before they become Superintendents in the BLM and FS. That is a fact.
Bob,
I agree. Worked under 3 IHC superintendents last summer that were each working as DIVS at the time. Every one was highly capable, safe, and generally bad mofos.
Woodsman
Some more INFO———-
Today Superintendents are GS-9.
To reach that level in Fire Management takes at least 14 Years in Fire control. Training Fires and Steps thru GS-4/GS-5/GS-6/GS-7 to be promotable to the GS-9 level generally most go thru the GS-7 ASST position before promotion to a Superintendent. Some come in from other positions as ASST. GS-7 Dist FMO’s or Fuels. Those with past HS positions are more likely to promote up to ASST or Super.
Here’s a letter I received from the E-Mail
Sent to a group I belong to. from a retired Superintendent
Hotshot accomplishments are legend.
What is a higher plain are the Hotshot Standards of excellence,
Integrity, Commitment, Professionalism and leadership which consistently brings the solution to the mission. Within the Hotshot
community there is pride without arrogance, a will to accomplish and be the best without brag and esprit within each crew without bounds.
I wish the agency would adapt and live by those standards.
Marsh had worked for the FS and as a HS. He was instrumental in having a crew disband WAS HE A LEADER?????
Steed worked as a HS but never came up thru the ranks and was under Marsh. WAS HE A LEADER?????
The Squad Bosses never worked any where but GM WERE THEY LEADERS?????
All serious and very concerning questions in my perspective.
Marsh was never a DIVS until 10 years as a SUPT. and only on Yarnell Is that truly leader Material?????
Bob Powers said…
—————————————–
The Job descriptions are true and represent the job. The Pay is around $13.00 per hour for a first time GS-3 Crewman going up from there.
25% Hazard Pay for all hours the Fire is Not Controlled— + $3.25
All hours over 8 at time and a half—$19.50 per hour.
In a good fire season a GS 3 will make in 4 months 10 to 12 Thousand Dollars.
I do not think any one at McDonalds makes that kind of money.
———————————————
In 2014, San Francisco raised their minimum wage to $15.00 per hour. Granted, it is being ‘phased in’… but at this moment it’s already $12.25 per hour. In a year or two, it will definitely be $15.00 per hour… no constant subjection to smoke inhalation required.
So there really is a +3.50 an hour ‘incentive’ to NOT have a fire classified as ‘under control’? WHO actually (officially) makes that determination on any particular ‘segment’ of a fire, which then stops the flow of the extra $3.50 per hour?
Is it the ‘whole fire’… or is it assignment specific?
In other words… can one shot crew just be doing mop-up and NOT be getting the extra $3.50 per hour… while another shot crew working the very same fire ( maybe even right next to the other one ) IS making the extra $3.50 per hour just because their ‘section’ still has some flame to deal with?
In all of the payroll records for Granite Mountain that are in the public record… and the dozens and dozens of fire assignments represented… I’m not seeing these kinds of incremental ‘whether the fire was controlled yet, or not’ distinctions. The only thing showing up in the records is either straight time ( base pay rate ) or overtime.
QUESTION: In some of the GM pay records that are not labelled ‘overtime’… sometimes there are two different ‘codes’ showing for the 8 hours oof’base pay’. Sometimes it shows a code of ‘EA’ and sometimes it shows a code of ‘EA’. There is nothing supplied by Prescott Payroll department to ADOSH along with the records to indicate what those codes mean.
What’s the difference between 8 hours of base pay with an ‘EA’ code versus an identical 8 hours of base pay with a ‘PA’ code?
Typo up above. I typed ‘EA’ twice in that first paragraph above.
The two different ‘base pay’ codes I’m wondering about are ‘EA’ and ‘PA’.
WTKTT
The IC declares the Containment and Control.
They are under cost restraints for each fire.
The entire fire is declared controlled not sections.
You gotta want to be there it has to be your calling
I was a GS-6 as a Asst. in 72 73 my base pay was around $8.00 per hour. It is the type of job in the out doors not in a office always a new challenge. I would do it again with no regrets. Some of the best days of my life in the FS were on the Angeles NF on the Oak Grove Hot Shots.
I can not explain why.
I can tell you for me and many others a HS job in at Supervisor level will increase your chances of promotion up the ladder no matter where you go in the FS or BLM.
Almost all of those I knew went to Dist. or Forest level Fire Management Officers some went as high as GS-14 and GS-15 levels in fire.
On GM I have no idea what EA and PA mean. Prescott City Codes Maybe????
Because they were Contract employees to the Government they may not have been under the Hazard pay coverage. Normally AD employees do not get that federal employee benefit.
While the Smoke inhalation is a concern my self and many of my friends have no real effects from wood base smoke it is no different than a campfire or a fire in a fire place. The most Wildland fire fighters are faced with is Hardening of the arteries from smoke. It is way different than People that fight house, warehouse and other type high chemical fires.
To put pay into perspective—
I started in 1961 at GS-3 $1.75 per hour no overtime for over 8 no hazard pay. in 1971 or right in there we got the overtime passed into law until then we got paid striate time for every hour we worked even a 80 hour week.
Hazard pay came in the following year.
I retired at a GS-9 Step 10 top of the 9 scale at that time I was making in 1994 $17.60 per hour.
In all the years I worked I saw Collage kids at least 5 per HS crew working to have money to go to Collage they did well back then for 3 months a good season put $8,000 to $10,000 in the bank for their school year most never came back after 4 years. Those that made a carrier
were few maybe 2 to 4 that went on in severial different fire agencies not just FS. They made a carrier and I will say to this day I loved my carrier choice for all the heat the smoke the mountains I climbed the jobs I did from IA to Mop-up the times that my family suffered because I was not home are the only regrets I have. There is a high Divorce rate attached to Fire Fighters. In Southern Calif. we started Fire season in March and ended in November.
And we still had fires Dec. thru February. I spent close to 40% of the year away from home on Fires.
No WTKTT it is not all about the money. It is about what you enjoy in life and what you are willing to put up with to do what you want to do and be Happy at your job and feel that you accomplished something in your life that few others will ever feel.
I had a hell of a run and enjoyed as much as any man could ask. I have seen places in the wild that most men have never seen and I have saved some of them from Wild Fire.
Thank You God. A humble Wild Land Fire Fighter.
I would agree that Marsh must have had something to do with writing that “Who wants to be a Hot Shot” script. It might have better read “Who wants to be a GMHS and play Russian Roulette with his life?”. You however will get a hero’s reward if the bullet goes through your brain despite your playing with a loaded revolver and disregarding the value of life. All those below you will have their heads lined up so if the bullet takes one, it takes all.
As Gary says, I’m in a mood, so……..
“You must take orders, and carry those orders out at all times, day after day.”
Only if you think of your crew as Black Ops, Tacticool, Paramilitary, Operators, high echelon, super firefighters.
“The emotional strain is extreme, and the competitive pressure of your peer group is always present.”
Only if you are trying to prove yourselves would you feel this ‘competitive pressure of your peer group’ as being always present.
“We care not about your sex, color, race or religion.”
Care not? Please. Is this like the founding fathers speaking or something?
Woodsman
>> Woodsman said…
>>
>> “The emotional strain is extreme, and the competitive pressure of
>> your peer group is always present.”
>>
>> Only if you are trying to prove yourselves would you feel this
>> ‘competitive pressure of your peer group’ as being always present.
Exactly.
If that’s how you intend to conduct business in a dangerous, life-threatening work environment… then your rails are pre-greased for a disaster and your train is already leaving the tracks.
It’s Juvenile.
>> Woodsman also said…
>>
>> “We care not about your sex, color, race or religion.”
>>
>> Care not? Please. Is this like the founding fathers speaking or something?
Yoda speak?
“Orders take, you must, and all at times day after day carry out.”.
“Pressure competitive present always of group peer is.”
“Extreme strain emotional is.”
“About sex, color, race or religion… yours… care we not.”
( Sorry… couldn’t resist ).
WTKTT:
Thanks for the laugh! Keep up the good work. You are on it like stink on rice!
Woodsman
The “So you want to be a Hot Shot” article goes back many years, author unknown, but likely a Forest Service employee based on the context.
As far as the GMHS fitness standards, of “… a fitness goal of a 2.5 mile run in 10 minutes 35 seconds, 40 sit-ups in 60 seconds, 25 pushups in 60 seconds, and 7 pull ups,” the USFS Crews could only use the Pack Test as a qualifying test and nothing else.
No doubt about it, the GMHS were in pretty good shape physically. Too bad they didn’t spend more time learning, understanding, and following the Basic WFF Rules.
RTS,
Yep. I have read a bunch (including one I think on Gary’s website) and they are all similar. I think GM’s was an ‘enhanced’ version…specops version.
“No doubt about it, the GMHS were in pretty good shape physically. Too bad they didn’t spend more time learning, understanding, and following the Basic WFF Rules.”
You damn skippy!
Only the arduous pack test? Several websites I just visited again today, all from R-3 had fitness test standards beyond just the pack test. They were all the same except of a 1.5 mile run in 10min 35 sec not 2.5 miles. I realize who I’m asking but are you sure there’s no other fitness requirement for IHC’s?
I think the 2.5 miles was a typo and I just had a little fun making fun of it. There’s no way the majority of HS could run that. True? Definitely!!
Woodsman
Woodsman,
And IF they could have run that distance in that time, then they could have and should have easily hauled ass RUNNING, without gear, to the relative safety of the BSR, rather than spending the feckless 2-3 minutes cutting a DEPLOYMENT ZONE!
Sixty percent (60%) of the American population can run a mile in under nine (9) minutes.
The BSR was less than 580 yards (0.33 miles) from the DEPLOYMENT ZONE, so they could have (and should have) RUN that distance in 3.07 minutes (if my math is correct) rather than their dramatic and unsuccessful hero bullshit attempt at thinking they could survive the ensuing fire storm in fire shelters.
The only protective device that MAY have saved their lives that day was an onsite shipping container made of aircraft ‘black box’ material where they shield and protect the voice and data recordings.
RTS,
Agree 100%. I’d agree more but 100% is the maximum. Thanks.
Woodsman
ps: I’m probably going to give the IMT and safety officers this season a stroke when I break out my new t-shirt in camp with a fire shelter with a circle and a line through it on the front and OLD SCHOOL on the back Gonna be sweet. I’m going to tell them if they don’t like it then they can talk to Bob Powers about it.
And if they are ‘uncomfortable’ with it, then you can tell them that they are being ‘insensitive’ and you will want to visit the Human Resources Nazi about the issue, because you were ‘offended’ by the whole ordeal.
RTS,
…and hand them a blank ‘Hurt Feelings Report’ for them to fill out. Thanks for the laugh, man!
Woodsman
Yes, the ‘Hurt Feelings Report.’ A classic, bound to be ‘offensive’ to all those ‘sensitive’ WFF’s.
One of many ‘Hurt Feelings Reports’ on the Internet.
https://www.google.com/search?q=hurt+feelings+report+pdf&biw=911&bih=382&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiQ9KKmnMvLAhVHwmMKHXCVAvEQsAQIGw&dpr=1.5#imgrc=SCBJfLEnnTgsQM%3A
AMEN
Bob,
I’ll have to check on the patent I have pending for the term “Bob Powers Approved.” It will be included at the bottom corner of the shirt.
Woodsman
ps: Next version will be LCES with the E & the S crossed out with KEEP ONE FOOT IN THE BLACK on the back…also Bob Powers Approved.
Woodsman,
You may be correct on the more current fitness standards if you did the research. I have not done that. Sounds like I need to do my due diligence and check them out. Thanks.
I know some HS crews have their own standards above the 1.5 mile test.
Some are different than others as well The Smoke Jumpers add some of their own. The basics is total Physical Fitness.
I do not in any way believe we were quite that Gung ho back in the 60’s and 70’s hell many of us were smokers. We could hike and we could run we were young and strong. We seldom carried 40 LB packs unless it was hose.
I think I was like 175 Lbs. till 1980 not much fat and I was never a runner
40 yard dash was about it for me. I worked out with one of my foreman lifting weights during the winter and spring to be ready for the crew.
That’s about it.
RTS,
No problemo. You more than earned the right to not be up to speed on the details of the fitness standard due to your 49 years of prior service as an IHC Supe.
Woodsman
Reply to Woodsman post on March 18, 2016 at 12:23 pm
>> Woodsman said…
>>
>> I think the 2.5 miles was a typo and I just had a little fun making fun of it.
>> There’s no way the majority of HS could run that. True? Definitely!!
I went back and checked the photo of the sandwich board… and YES… it looks like the TYPO was MINE ( I was copying by hand from the photo in enhanced mode ).
SAIT Dropbox / Photos and Videos / Fernandez photos
https://www.dropbox.com/sh/02ue6bnjp6nazkm/AAB_59PXlAuhlkl2-quFH5_Oa/Photos%20and%20Video/Fernandez%20photos?dl=0
Photo Filename: 20130710_125336.jpg
It’s still pretty fuzzy at that spot in the photo… but on second look definitely
looks more like ‘1.5 mile hike’ than ‘2.5 mile hike’.
Sorry. My bad.
WTKTT,
No problem. GM’s fitness standard now matches every other current IHC I have seen as far as recruitment information. Not a whole lot of people can pull off a 4min 14 second mile. I thought they were freaks now it looks like everyone else. There are competitive marathon runners on hotshot crews today but to require every prospective crew member to be one is unrealistic.
Thanks!
Woodsman
Reply to Woodsman post on
March 18, 2016 at 5:59 pm
>> Woodsman said…
>>
>> I thought they were freaks now it looks like everyone else.
Don’t forget “Pukie the Clown”… Jesse Steed’s hero.
Google it.. then click ‘images’.
Pretty damn ‘freaky’.
Actually… here’s one…
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-omfcZZ6oE0E/Ua0vQ9JvAWI/AAAAAAAAATU/sZF-aDLmLvM/s1600/pukie_v5_2013.png
Reply to Bob Powers post on March 15, 2016 at 9:03 am
>> Bob Powers said…
>>
>> My research from R3 sources says no one was kicked out
>> Instructors or otherwise.
>>
>> All Instructors were there for the entire week.
>>
>> There was some discussion on and a training session by the team to not discuss
>> any thing about Yarnell Hill Fire.prior to the Training session. My understanding
>> is some of the team did not attend or get briefed on this rule but that was corrected
>> during the training session.
>>
>> So much for lessons learned in Arizona. No Discussion on mistakes or actions by GM
>> you are to close in Prescott to the Graves of the Heroes. Discuss all other fires but
>> not Yarnell and not ever on their home turf. My personnel appraisal.
>>
>> I also know that the R3 HS crews are in full discussion during their training on all
>> fires including Yarnell That’s a good thing.
Yep… and a NECESSARY thing.
>> Bob Powers also said…
>>
>> I never in my life would have believed that could happen in a training session.
>>
>> When people want to discuss and learn they are kept from that discussion
>> of what happened at Yarnell and why?
The very idea that an accredited ‘Wildland Training Academy’ would try, in any way, to establish ANY past fire fatality as ‘off limits for discussion’ is absurd.
>> Bob Powers also said…
>>
>> The problem is out side R3 the discussion is in full swing and has been for 2 years.
I certainly hope so.
>> Bob Powers also said…
>>
>> I will add a personnel note here——
>>
>> My dad died on the Rattlesnake fire.
>>
>> They made mistakes and those mistakes are discussed every year and have been
>> sense 1953 they are true lessons learned and I never felt that should not happen.
>>
>> In the 10 Standard orders they discuss each one and the fires that created them.
>>
>> Rattle Snake fire— Communications and Look out as well as
>> The watch outs. Numbers–3,4,7,11,&12.
>>
>> Pure and simply lessons learned.
>>
>> I am more proud of the Fact that my Father was able to leave a legacy of Rules
>> to insure others did not fail to identify the Hazards of the mistakes of the past.
>>
>> There is a shroud over the actions and decisions of Granite
>> Mountain and what happened.
>>
>> Fire Fighters should be able to discuss what happened and
>> find conclusions as to the WHY.
Totally agree.
And in case not enough people have said so often enough…
Your father would be very, very PROUD of you.
Throughout this extended discussion… YOUR “message” has been consistent, loud, clear and strong…
– It’s a dangerous occupation.
– The “rules of engagement” are NOT there for your entertainment.
– They are not “hillbilly”.
– They have already been PAID FOR at the highest possible rate by others who have come before you ( your father included ).
– You MUST follow them at all times… especially when you are hot and tired and more likely to make bad decisions.
– The life you save will be your own.
I offer to the group part of MY training. A poem forwarded occasionally by our safety personnel:
I Could Have Saved A Life That Day (safety poem)
I could have saved a life that day,
But I chose to look the other way.
It wasn’t that I didn’t care;
I had the time, and I was there.
But I didn’t want to seem a fool,
Or argue over a safety rule.
I knew he’d done the job before;
If I spoke up he might get sore.
The chances didn’t seem that bad;
I’d done the same, he knew I had.
So I shook my head and walked by;
He knew the risks as well as I.
He took the chance, I closed an eye;
And with that act, I let him die.
I could have saved a life that day,
But I chose to look the other way.
Now every time I see his wife,
I know I should have saved his life.
That guilt is something I must bear;
But isn’t’ something you need to share.
If you see a risk that others take
That puts their health or life at stake,
The question asked or thing you say;
Could help them live another day.
If you see a risk and walk away,
Then hope you never have to say,
“I could have saved a life that day,
But I chose to look the other way.”
That is all.
Woodsman
That should be Smokey the Bear’s new slogan—
not ONLY YOU—-
it is time we stand up — the ones that were there-
how can you even read that above and think not-
thank you woodsman.
There were soooo MANY ‘missed opportunities’ that fateful day that might have changed the actual outcome… and MOST of them were in the “C” of LCES…
“C” = Communicate CLEARLY and EFFECTIVELY
Even USFS employee and SAIT Co-Lead Mike Dudley, the man who was TASKED with leading the effort to tell the family members AND his ‘own profession’ what REALLY happened that day had this to say ( in public ) on June 20, 2014…
Mike Dudley / SAIT Co-Leader
———————————————————————————–
I will say this. There is this point where… well… you can see the dialogue…
and that’s one of the key components.
A lot of people were talking… very few people were communicating.
And you saw that little snippet of when Blue Ridge and Granite are
tryin’ to identify… “Where are you guys? Youre’ in the black?”… “Yea… we’re
makin’ our way down the escape route”.
At no point do you see someone finally go… “Okay… WHERE exactly are you HEADED?”.
That was NEVER defined.
It was almost as if Granite Mountain was bein’ deliberately vague.
——————————————————————————
So now we KNOW that this is one of the ‘conclusions’ that the SAIT had come to when they investigated this incident.
But it was never mentioned in the ‘report’.
No one did ANYTHING wrong. Nothing to see here. Move along.
Not even an inter-agency MEMO calling for a complete review of all training procedures when it comes to the “C” in LCES and how important it is to NOT just ‘talk’ on the fucking radio… but to COMMUNICATE… and if you are ever in doubt about anything someone said or meant… then by God CALL THEM BACK and tell them to CLARIFY!
A few more pushes of a few more ‘transmit’ buttons that day… and a few more direct ‘clarification’ questions… and things *might* have turned out differently.
Very appropriate to the occasion the poem Woodsman has originated. Fortunately this is Saint Patrick’s day so my blessings and may the Irish Gods bless all here who seek the truth. The old Leprechaun is still on the loose and those liars and cover ups of vital information are bound to meet him somewhere down the line and should they finally come clean may he have pity on their asses when he does appear.
They could have saved 17 lives that day but did look the other way. There is always the flip side of the coin. Although the lives of 17 wonderful young heroes can not be repleaced, their terrible work as leaders will lead to better choice of leaders, more respect of safety rules and an understanding of the serious business of training. The end result will be to save future lives once this whole debacle is exposed.
I now see that Marsh would have been a good bicyclist– he was fit for that–but it is more than obvious he was unfit to lead wild land fire fighters in that dangerous profession. Steed I have no opinion of since I know little about his past and how he got to where he could command men in such a risky area, then let them down by leading them to their death. He certainly looked the part and acted, but his knowledge and wit to keep his men alive and even himself was deficient. How they choose leaders for wild land fire fighting grunts certainly failed at the Prescott Hybrid wild land-structure fire fighting level. And if you go to fire fighting school to learn to disobey fire fighting common sense rules then the schooling as well is fundamentally flawed. Just think when a dumb cowboy can absolutely refuse to do what they did then we better check into the intelligence quotient of these so called heroes who dump all sensibility to make themselves look good or obey stupid commands from their superiors. I keep beating that drum, but consider this. We here are after the truth–and the Irish God’s are willing and it will in its time come out. But only because there are enough good friends on this JD site that will not stand for anything less.
In honor of St. Patrick, I shall wear a bit of green. My son being half Mexican and the other half me wears a nice green shamrock tattooed on his arm for all to see. He is proud of his heritage and what he does and is good at it. So is my other son being an RN and my beautiful daughter who helps people with her MA in counseling. That is what we want to see in the Wild Land Fighting Profession. The wild land fighter deserves the best in training, leadership, equipment and pay. They were failed in all areas during the Yarnell Fire effort. Now it behooves the tax payer once they have spent their millions promoting the memorial to come forward with what these young 17 that died did not have. Better training, quality leadership, and better equipment and pay. That will indeed be an honor the dead ones and you can be assured they would prefer that over all the tax payer has now provided for memorial. Do not neglect the living.
lá sona Naomh Pádraig do gach duine ! … agus go háirithe tú , Sonny . Tá áthas orm go bhfuil tú anseo a taitneamh as!
Happy Saint Patrick’s day to everyone!… and especially you, Sonny. I’m glad you’re here to enjoy it!
Woodsman,
Great poem. Thanks for posting it. I certainly plan on using it.
Happy Saint Patrick’s Day
RTS,
No problem. Glad to help. The interesting thing to me is what a message like that meant to me back when I was new compared to what it means to me now with some years under my belt. Evolution by fire and experience I guess. My conscience forces me to give something back in honor of those that helped me when I was so naive & stupid. I rolled my eyes at stuff like that and thought I was smarter than I was. Lucky to be alive and be able to try to get through to the younger firefighters. It ain’t no joke out there!
Happy St Patrick’s Day to you as well.
Woodsman
>> On March 13, 2016 at 11:16 am, dale1 said…
>>
>> didd u go to the ariz wildfire academmy …. see wat Todd Abel did lasst week…./?
>>
>> Then on March 15, 2016 at 5:47 am, dale1 said…
>>
>> tod abel kickced a instructor out for talking trash../.…?..
This deserved some ‘research’… and I can report that there is, at least, NOTHING about any ‘instructor’ getting kicked out of last week’s ‘Arizona Wildfire Incident and Management Academy’ (AWIMA) in any online coverage or article. Not anything I can find, anyway.
Maybe it happened. Maybe not.
Maybe it had something to do with Yarnell. Maybe not.
But then again… the actual ‘coverage’ of this year’s AWIMA was pretty sparse, as compared to even the last two years. There was one short ‘pre-announcement’ that it was going to happen in the ‘Daily Courier’… and then there was one short article that appeared on the day the AWIMA started… but nothing like the media coverage of the last two years. Not even any kind of ‘wrap up’ article(s).
Example: There wasn’t even any media present at the ‘annual dinner’ which is held in the middle of each AWIMA even, where they give out their ‘Southwest Firefighter of the Year’ and ‘Herb McElwee Loyalty’ awards for the calendar year.
And… oddly enough… not even any mention of same on their OWN ‘Facebook page’, which is what they use for ‘updates’ and ‘press releases’ during the AWIMA week itself.
So I suppose I can understand the waning interest on the part of the media… but it remains odd that they would actually post ‘pictures’ from the ‘dinner’ on their own Facebook page, but then not say one word about who they were giving their ‘awards’ to this year.
Is it possible the AWIMA has decided ( this year ) it did NOT really want all that publicity, given some of the criticism that has appeared about ‘previous winners’?
For the previous two years… the ‘award announcements’ were showing up everywhere, and even with their own MSM articles, the very day after they were given out.
Their ‘2013 Southwest Wildland Firefighter of the Year’ award went to Gary Cordes Gary Cordes received the award for (supposedly) rescuing 2 pairs of citizens in Glen Ilah during the Yarnell Hill Fire. The Arizona Republic reported one of those rescues as having been Glen Ilah resident Bryan Smith and his (then) 84 year old cousin Pearl Moore, but Bryan Smith himself has now positively identified Prescott National Forest employee Dan Sullivan as the one who rescued him and Pearl on June 30, 2013, and NOT Gary Cordes. It is also highly likely that the other ‘rescue’ for which the Arizona Republic said Cordes was receiving this award was also NOT actually performed by Gary Cordes.
Last year’s ‘2014 Southwest Wildland Firefighter of the Year’ award went to GregSmith. Greg Smith was instrumental in establishing the Ironwood Hotshots from Northwest Fire in Tucson. He was their Superintendent since its inception. The entire ‘Ironwood Hotshots’ organization was ‘disbanded’ in 2014 because of insurance and liability concerns following the Yarnell Hill Fire tragedy.
This year’s ‘2015 Southwest Wildland Firefighter of the Year’ award… ???
Who knows. There doesn’t seem to be any ‘public’ announcement about that yet, not even on their own AWIMA Facebook page, even though the award was (supposedly) presented back on March 9, 2016.
Their public Facebook page has a posting from March 9, 2016 with 3 photos taken at the fourth annual ‘Tribute Dinner’… but they make absolutely NO mention of who won this year’s ‘Southwest Wildland Firefighter of the Year’ award OR this year’s ‘Herb McElwee Loyalty Award’.
https://www.facebook.com/Arizona-Wildfire-and-Incident-Management-Academy-113390165360151/
————————————————————————-
March 9 at 4:32pm ·
AWIMA attendees gathered together for the fourth annual Tribute Dinner held at the Prescott Resort. The evening is set aside to honor fallen firefighters, award the 2015 Southwest Wildland Firefighter of the Year and announce the recipient of the Herb McElwee Loyalty award.
( 3 Photos posted taken at the 2016 Tribute Dinner at the Prescott Resort )
( Absolutely NO mention of who won their ‘awards’ this year )
————————————————————————-
I suppose we will find out, at some point, who they gave their 2015 ‘awards’ to, but it’s still odd that it wouldn’t already be common/public knowledge.
There is also this ( which they DID see fit to post on their PUBLIC Facebook page )…
** FIRE SHELTER DRILL
A video from this year’s Arizona Wildfire and Incident Management Academy ( AWIMA ) of a complete ‘get into fire shelters’ drill as part of the S-130 Basic Fire Fighter class. They drop their packs on the edge of a small grass lot outside of Emry Riddle University, and slowly walk about 10 paces, and attempt to deploy. One of the FFs ( the woman with the long hair ) could never even get the fire shelter out of its pack. Everyone else eventually deploys and they are all under their shelters while she is still standing there struggling to even open her shelter pack.
Here is the video…
https://www.facebook.com/113390165360151/videos/vb.113390165360151/10151384690393208/?type=2&theater
The AWIMA official caption/text for this video…
—————————————————————————————–
Basic Fire Fighting Training – fire shelter deployment
Academy students in the S-130 Basic Fire Fighter class train on the tricky business of deploying a fire shelter. Fire shelters are the last line of defense when facing a fire entrapment if escape is no longer possible. Learning to deploy them properly can mean the difference between life and death.
Some of the comments left on this video…
Comment from Aileen Casillas – March 12, 2013 at 2:44pm
NOTE: This is apparently the FF who couldn’t even get her shelter out of her pack…
This was fun but a very tightly packed practice shelter is not! Hahaha… Oops. ( smile emoticon ).
Comment from Dani Koile – March 12, 2013 at 3:27pm
Now use a fan to simulate wind.
Comment from Cynthia Sequanna – March 12, 2013 at 3:36pm
Shake and bake!
Comment from Uriah Hernandez – March 12, 2013 at 4:23pm
My Cap would kill me if I moved that slow lol
MOVE,MOVE,MOVE lol alway a fun drill
Comment from Geri Mexicano – March 12, 2013 at 5:09pm
That seemed pretty slow. Hopefully they’re quicker when they need to be.
Comment from Ángel Lorenzo Gutiérrez – March 13, 2013 at 7:39am
In Spain this technique is not use!!! Why???
—————————————————————————————–
So there is ( apparently, in the PUBLIC comments ) firefighter trainee Aileen Casillas saying that the S-130 Basic Firefighter Class ‘Shelter’ drill was (quote) “fun!”… even though she never even got her shelter out of its pack… and that ( to her ) was all ‘Hahaha’ and ‘Opps’ and ‘Smiley Face Emoticon’.
QUESTION: If you take an S-130 class and you end up (obviously) ‘burning to death’ during the ‘shelter drill’… do you still get your S-130 quals… or do you still have to demonstrate you know how to get a fire shelter out of its pack before you can say you have ‘successfully completed’ S-130?
Please tell me it’s the latter.
And just for reference… here are pretty much the ONLY ‘media’ articles that appeared regarding this year’s AWIMA…
NOTE: This first article puts the number of ‘participants’ at 745, but another one used the term ‘registrants’ and put the number at 900.
The Prescott Daily Courier
Article Title: Sincere connection to fire work for Wildland Fire Academy folks
Published: March 9, 2016 6 a.m – By Sue Tone
http://dcourier.com/news/2016/mar/09/sincere-connection-fire-work-wildland-fire-academy/
————————————————————
PHOTO: Shows 5th year WFF Katie Markey
teaching the S130/190 Basic Wildland Firefighting
Class and showing students how to get under
the ‘green’ practice fire shelters.
AWIMA attracts highly qualified instructors and students from the Southwest and the nation. This year 600 of the 745 participants are from Arizona, the rest come from 27 other states, said Public Affairs Officer Loretta Benavidez, who is with Lincoln National Forest, Alamogordo, New Mexico. The seven-day program offers instruction and skills in such areas as wildland fire investigation, incident command management, prescribed fire implementation, working with news media, and also for those wanting to find out if fighting wildland fires is for them.
————————————————————
This one puts the number of ‘registrants’ at 749, with only 340 ‘in attendance’ on the first day.
Also confirms Todd Abel as the “Incident Commander” for this year’s AWIMA…
The Prescott Daily Courier
Article Title: Annual Arizona Wildfire & Incident Management Academy kicks off
Published: March 6, 2016 6 a.m
http://dcourier.com/news/2016/mar/06/annual-arizona-wildfire-incident-management-academ/
————————————————————
The 14th Annual Arizona Wildfire & Incident Management Academy kicked off at Embry Riddle Aeronautical University on Saturday, March 5. Around 340 students, instructors and incident management team members were on campus as the week-long training began and of the 749 students registered for this year, about 600 are from Arizona according to a press release from Arizona Wildfire Academy Public Information Officer Punky Moore. Other students were from 27 states, including New York, Florida and Montana.
At the morning briefing on Saturday, Incident Commander for the Academy Todd Abel told students to challenge their instructors and absorb as much information as possible.
“Building the relationships that will be important to you down the road, starts at the academy,” Abel said in the release.
————————————————————
And here is the article that put the number of ‘registrants’ at 900…
NOTE: AWIMA classes generally cost about $65 per day per student.
ALSO NOTE: As much as they might have wanted to avoid it…. this MSM article had comments on it that were still asking questions about the ‘Granite Mountain Hotshots’…
The Prescott Daily Courier
Article Title: Perfecting firefighting skills draws all ages to academy
Published: March 11, 2016 6 a.m. – By Sue Tone
http://dcourier.com/news/2016/mar/11/perfecting-firefighting-skills-draws-all-ages-acad/
————————————————————
PHOTO CAPTION
Students in the Basic Wildland Firefighting class, dressed in canary yellow shirts and wearing hardhats, carried their Pulaski tools up a hill Wednesday, March 9, to cut line on the northern edge of Embry-Riddle Aeronautical University (ERAU).
This was just one part of their field exercise at the Arizona Wildfire and Incident Management Academy this past week. On Thursday, they headed out Iron Springs Road to work with chain saws.
The training is part of a certificate program that provides students with entry-level wildfire fighting skills.
Several in the class are fresh out of high school, others are seasoned professionals, said Ben Roche of Chino Valley Fire (CVFD) and lead instructor of this field day class.
Joe Weathersby is one of the latter students. The systems planner with Arizona Public Service (APS) took the week-long course not to fight fires, but to be a liaison between his company and firefighters. “I can be the eyes and ears for APS. I’m taking this class to understand the language – the jargon – and be able to communicate what’s happening,” Weathersby said.
For Dee Warneking, 57, with the Sherwood Volunteer Fire Department near Williams, attending the Academy is “just another form of service.” She worked as a critical care nurse for 15 years after retiring from the Air Force, and helped the Sherwood fire department set up its medical program.
“I live there. I want to be able to protect the homes and protect the community,” Warneking said, adding that it’s OK to have service be her lifetime work.
At the other end of the age range is Jake Clawson, 18. He is the family’s third generation of firefighters, and said he wants eventually to hire on to a Type I Hotshot crew. For now, he works with a CVFD crew team.
This year’s Academy is the largest in its 14-year history, said Deputy Incident Commander Dirch Foreman, with 52 classes covering 48 subjects and attracting more than 900 students, instructors, vendors and support staff. ERAU hosts the event during its spring break, and offers on-site dry camping for students.
Some prefer RV campers or hotels, but Keenen Reiter, 30, and fellow members of the Jerome Volunteer Fire Department are sleeping outdoors – showers are available.
“Camping in 32-degree weather is part of the whole experience,” Reiter said with enthusiasm. “The Academy has been outstanding. I have not regretted one minute of it.”
Reiter’s quote for the day: “We’re all here because we’re not all there.”
“That means we’re a little bit crazy – the good kind of crazy,” he was quick to add.
Two other students offered their quotes. Mikayla Baker, 18, a Dewey resident, said, “You put the wet stuff on the red stuff” and “You take every fire very seriously because this is the new norm.”
Doug Williams from Phoenix proffered his alliterative advice with a big laugh: “Prior proper preparation prevents poor performance.”
————————————————————
Here is the most recent ‘comment’ made on this article…
Comment from: Rcadya – 4 days, 3 hours ago
Wonder how many of our late Hotshot crew – all but one of whom perished in the wildfire – attended this wildfire academy? This is not meant in any way to be disrespectful – just curious.
** PHOTOGRAPH OF ERIC MARSH’S DOG ( AND BOOT ) ON DISPLAY AT AWIMA
Last but not least… there was this ‘story’ that appeared about a special ‘photograph’ that was on display this week at Amanda Marsh’s ‘Eric Marsh Foundation’ booth in the merchandising section of this year’s AWIMA conference/classes.
Two things about this photograph/article.
1. It really is an extraordinary photograph. It’s worth a look… and you can now buy unframed prints of it directly on Amanda Marsh’s ‘Eric Marsh Foundation’ website.
2. Notice how this Prescott resident, even now, describes what she believes happened to the GM Hotshots She simply says they were ‘caught undefended’.
The Frame and I – Gallery and Frame Shop
Article Title: 19 Hotshots Memorial frame
Published: March 5, 2016
http://frameandi.com/19-hotshots-memorial-frame/
———————————————————————
We were recently approached by Donna from Whiskers Barkery in downtown Prescott to frame a very special photo. This photo, of one of the Granite Mountain Hotshots buggies with fallen hotshot Eric Marsh’s dog and boot on the bumper has an important meaning for those of us who live in Prescott, Yarnell and the surrounding communities.
You see, on June 30th 2013 we lost 19 of our brave firefighters in a wildfire near Yarnell that caught them undefended.
Along with Donna and Whiskers Barkery, we wanted to make a fitting 19 Hotshots Memorial frame from The Frame & I to display and preserve this precious photograph. Firefighters from all over the southwestern USA will see it at the Arizona Wildfire Academy at Embry Riddle Aeronautical University over the next few days. It’s at the Eric Marsh Foundation’s booth. We are hoping for a successful and educational Academy this year, as well as a lot of support for the Foundation.
( PHOTOGRAPH OF FINISHED FRAME WITH PHOTO )
( OF ERIC MARSH’S DOG AND BOOT )
Photograph Caption: Heroes in life, Legends in our hearts.
The photo is courtesy of Donna at Whiskers Barkery.
We’ve donated this frame at Donna’s request, to the Eric Marsh foundation, whose mission “is a non-profit organization created to support survivors of wildland line-of-duty deaths as well as living wildland firefighters”.
———————————————————————
SIDENOTE: Ex-firefighter Holly Niell was one of the ‘volunteers’ manning the ‘Eric Marsh Foundation for Wildland Firefighters’ booth at this year’s AWIMA. Neill is being ‘thanked’ for doing that on the ‘Eric Marsh Foundation’ PUBLIC Facebook page. Other ‘volunteers’ manning the booth were… Eric Naumetz, Rex Naumetz, Karen Norris, Tim Armenta and John Marsh ( Eric Marsh’s father ).
Reply to Gary Olson post on March 16, 2016 at 6:02 pm
>> Gary Olsen said…
>>
>> The reason it sounds true to me, is because Shit-For-Brains
>> has something he had to tell Willis, who then had something
>> he had to tell Paladino (Prescott City Attorney) who then had
>> to tell it AZ State Forestry, and that COULD have been about
>> The Argument, but I think it may have been more specific than that.
It’s never a bad time to review what was ACTUALLY said ( and how even where McDonough apparently chose to end his ‘story’ couldn’t have been the real ‘end’ )…
The Arizona Republic – AZCENTRAL
Article title: Yarnell fire: New account of hotshot deaths
Published: 11:49 p.m. MST April 3, 2015
By Robert Anglen, Dennis Wagner and Yvonne Wingett Sanchez
http://www.azcentral.com/story/news/arizona/investigations/2015/04/04/yarnell-fire-new-account-hotshot-deaths/25284535/
From the article…
———————————————————————————–
Paladini offered the following account of McDonough’s story, as he says was related to him by Willis, who disagrees:
While moving vehicles with the Blue Ridge crew, McDonough allegedly overheard radio traffic between Marsh and Steed, who was with 17 crew members atop a ridge that had burned days earlier.
In the radio call, Marsh told Steed to leave the “black,” which was safe, and join him at the ranch. Steed protested, saying such a move would be dangerous. The radio exchange turned into a dispute.
“My understanding of the argument between Eric Marsh and Jesse Steed … was that Steed did not want to go down,” Paladini said.
According to Paladini’s account, Steed objected until Marsh gave him a direct order to descend.
As the back-and-forth conversation continued, it became apparent that Steed, a U.S. Marine veteran, consented to the command to relocate the team. But he told Marsh he thought it was a bad idea.
During one of the final radio transmissions, according to the account, Steed told Marsh the crew was not going to make it.
“That is what Darrell (Willis) told me,” Paladini said.
———————————————————————————–
To this day… the ONLY part of that ‘story’ that Darrell Willis himself has ever had any ‘disagreement’ with is the use of the term “direct order” when it comes to whatever it was that Marsh said to Steed to finally convince him to bring GM out of the safe black.
All Willis had to say about that ONE point is that he doesn’t recall McDonough using the term “direct order” when the same story was being told to him.
So that’s it. Just a disagreement about the ‘phrasing’ used.
Willis has never denied ANY of the REST of that ‘story’ as related by Paladini, including the last part where there was supposedly a transmission from Steed to Marsh saying…
“We’re not going to make it”.
So until we hear more from Brendan McDonough and those other three Blue Ridge Hotshots who Paladini confirms WERE also ‘listening’ to that radio traffic that day, we can/should assume that this story is accurate.
But it is then ‘not credible’ to think there wasn’t even MORE conversation between Steed and Marsh following that “We’re not going to make it” announcement from Steed and the next known radio transmission from Steed at 4:39 PM… which we can hear for ourselves in one of Prescott National Forest employee Aaron Hulburd’s videos…
Jesse Steed: “Breaking in on Arizona 16, Granite Mountain Hotshots, we are in front of the flaming front.”
The original SAIT investigation said this transmission was ‘broken’ and ‘over-modulated’ and ‘hard to understand’.
It was no such thing.
It was just LOUD… because there were already at least TWO chainsaws running full blast right there near Jesse, already ‘clearing’ the already-chosen deployment site, and Jesse had to YELL into his microphone just as much to hear himself talk as to make sure John Burfiend in Air Attack ‘Bravo 3’ could hear him as well.
So… how MUCH time was there between Steed’s “We’re not going to make it” announcement and then then first 4:39 psuedo-MAYDAY call?
Hard to say.
And what else, exactly, was SAID over the GM intra-crew in that same timeframe?
Also hard to say… until Brendan and/or those 3 Blue Ridge Hotshots finally tell us.
Steed might have ‘frozen up’ at the point of the realization of “We’re not going to make it”, and the GM intra-crew could have ‘lit up’ with exchanges between Steed and Marsh.
Marsh might have even ENCOURAGED them to ‘haul ass FORWARD!’ and then received ANOTHER “No… we can’t make it” call from Steed before ‘deploying’ even entered anyone’s plans.
Marsh might have even known ( then ) what WE know now… that if there was time for him to run BACK to them from wherever Marsh was, closer to safety, then there was certainly still time for THEM to run FORWARD and cover that same distance in that same time.
But Marsh was ‘out ahead’ and had already ‘covered that distance’ between them. Marsh had that slight edge of ‘familiarity’ to be able to know there WAS ‘time’ for that.
Steed had no idea what lie ahead… and there might then have been more smoke in his location than even where Eric was and a ‘forward run’ might have just looked like a complete ‘blind run into the unknown’ from Steed’s position.
Even if Steed really did know what to do, at that point, Marsh might have still then been barking orders at him while he was now trying to cover the distance back towards them.
They could have been orders like “Find a deployment site. Do it NOW. Clear it. Burn it”, while he was running. It might not have even occurred to Marsh that the laws of physics were still in full operation at that moment and that Steed and the crew DID have the TIME to make it to at least where HE was when Steed said “We’re not going to make it”.
All I know is… any kind of transmission from Steed along the lines of…
“Hey Eric… guess what… we’re not going to make it”
…could NOT have been the ‘end of that conversation’ at that time.
That’s just where Brendan himself was choosing to ‘end’ his ‘reporting’ of what was going down even when HE was talking to Willis.
** THE TRUTH WILL SET YOU FREE
Back when this ‘story’ about what Brendan told Willis first broke… Arizona News Channel ’12News’ ran its own article about it… and they also obtained their OWN ‘comments’ from players in the story like Paladini and Willis.
12 News
Article Title: New details in Yarnell fire
Published: 10:32 p.m. MST April 7, 2015 – By Kevin Kennedy
http://legacy.12news.com/story/news/12-news/2015/04/07/12news-yarnell-fire-hotshots-investigation/25439911/
From that article…
——————————————————————————-
Willis would not give specifics about the conversation he had with McDonough but would tell us what he told McDonough.
“The truth will set you free regardless of how it looks, the truth will set you free,” Willis said.
——————————————————————————-
Of all the stupid things Darrell Willis has had to say in the aftermath of this tragedy… you DO have to give him a THUMBS UP for THAT statement.
Because ( on THIS point )… he is absolutely correct.
Charlie says
MARCH 16, 2016 AT 9:54 AM
Gary that one sent chills up my back. Whew, I think you are getting at the reality of that fatal day.
OK…you caught me. I can’t lie to my old friend Charlie. That was a bad idea that I just assumed everyone would take with a grain of salt coming from me. I received that information in an anonymous email…but it rings true to me
But since I can’t verify it right now, you can take it for whatever it is worth to you. It’s just that I have a long stated policy not to sit on information that I receive, so there it is.
The reason it sounds true to me, is because Shit-For-Brains has something he had to tell Willis, who then had something he had to tell Paladino (Prescott City Attorney) who then had to tell it AZ State Forestry, and that COULD have been about The Argument, but I think it may have been more specific than that.
In any case, there are dozens, if not hundreds of people who now know everything that was said in the crews final minutes since dozens of firefighters on that fire had the crews “crew” net programmed into their handhelds, including those final words. If they are true, which as I have said, I personally believe they are accurate..
Like I said before…the Fucking CIA can’t keep secrets like those people in and around Prescott can. This has got to be one of the biggest (in terms of people in the know) cover-ups in the history of…whatever.
Yes SFB is riding the wave for a while and indications are he came clean with Willis and Willis came clean with the lawyer. Seems that is as far as it goes for now. Amanda did say in one of her talks that Marsh would first be loved then hated. Does she know something she does not want public and might someday be explained when the truth comes our? She certainly disposed of that cell phone in the trash soon enough when even a ribbon tied by Marsh would be a relic of value.
Those fatal talks between Marsh and Steed if proven should make wild land bosses serious about protecting the young men they are responsible for. You can face charges for leaving your dog in a hot car and rightly so, but leaving a child is deadly serious business. So would leading 17 young souls into an inferno be. This is what we say with the GMHS, then we wonder why so many have their mouths shut as to the truth and why Donut held back such vital information to lead the world to the real story.
It must bear hard on their consciences–good lord that information is so vital in getting the seriousness of this situation out so it is not repeated to kill more vital young wild land firefighters.
After due consideration I have come to TWO conclusions.
Dale1—-
1. This person with all the statements made has one thing that stands out.
His mental capacity to form Sentences or actually spell the simplest things.
That leads me to my first conclusion that it would be hard to believe that he is higher than a
Crewman. Their is no way that Dale1 could achieve a higher position in any Fire agency.
Dale1 dose not have the capacity to fill out reports or records or send memos up or down the chain of command. Or do any supervisory training. So I seriously doubt his credentials.
2. This person Dale1 is putting on a front to cover there identity. By intentionally doing the one liners with serious mistakes to through off any suspicion as to an Identity. If this is the case then Dale1 may be someone we know who was on here previous or some one recognizable by others in R3.
I am beginning to think NUMBER 2.
This opens a whole can of worms including why Dale1 is throwing out bits and pieces of information
to discredit some unnamed individual with out using their name?
Or Identifying who Dale1 is.
We know he is in the SW and in Fire. That would be R3 the only area there that was in Red Flag this last week is Eastern New Mexico or Western Texas.
So for who dose he work? FS, BLM, BIA, Park Service, Wild life refuge, State, County or City.
A lot to chose from so we are still left with a lot of questions as to what the hell Dale1 is trying to
do or accomplish.
Otherwise we are stuck with number 1 and a very uneducated uninformed individual with a lack of ability to ascertain any Safety Rules or ascertain some semblance of intellectual discussion.
If the indicators are true this person could never reach a crew boss level with any competency.
A true Grunt dirt thrower with no mind of their own. I can not believe this to be true at least the Feds require a High School Education as I believe the State dose to.
My friends on IM you will have to make your own decision.
I am sticking with a Faker with unknown reasons. His total sentences are just way out there for any other choice.
As Woodsman said below he is full of shit————
Bob,
Or it could be the manifestation of the dumbing down of America in all its glory. With all the tweeting, twirling, hashtagging, faceplant, social networking…a lot of society has lost the ability to communicate effectively. He’s probably thumbing that literary artwork out on a phone. I don’t know what most of the social networking crap is and I have no desire to find out. I do text and try not to bastardize the English language but I know I do anyway despite these efforts. (that was a run-on sentence, right there)
If anyone has anything to say I think we should let them. You never know what will contain useful information. Of course, I don’t make the rules here so this is just my opinion.
I love you, Bob but I sincerely recommend against you ‘calling out’ anyone here for mistakes in spelling or grammar. I have learned to ‘respell’ your words as I read them. At the end of the day, I know what you are saying even with mistakes and that’s what matters. I am far from precise in my spelling and grammar as well.
Dale1 may be full of shit. He also may have something positive to contribute to the search for truth. Anything’s possible. My opinion from the few posts by him that I’ve read is that his credibility is low (‘honest mistake??!!) but it’s not zero………..yet.
If someone got ‘shut down’ at the Arizona fire academy, I would like to know the details. It could mean that someone was attempting to be honest about what happened at Yarnell Hill and by talking about it was trying to make the way we fight wildfires in this country safer. Either way, I want to know what happened. I guarantee that if something like that happened, every staff member/instructor there would know about it. I just wish there was someone we know that was there who would be willing to share the absolute 100% truth about it.
Woodsman
After dealing with Dale1 for a year what I said was just my conclusions.
Not to stop his input but to attempt to get more from it which has been futile for some time. Try as we may to get him to say more has been frustrating.
Yes in my hast or my spell checking that I rely on to much I accept the wrong words.
I hope I have never made a sentence as bad as Dail1, but I do string stuff together and Spell words like they sound with out the silent letters I confess on here I do not double check a lot of the time. Which I should do.
All I got was from a couple of friends that were there. nothing about any one being removed or “shut down”. at least they herd of nothing to that extent. There was a no discussion on Yarnell that was discussed by the Team.
Haven’t herd from RTS he is on his Lecture/training and reunion business right now. I believe he is in Southern Calif. now on the Old HS Superintendents Reunion. He stays on the move. I believe he comes up on Team call in R3 next Month. Maybe he can have more info to share?????
bob i work…. fire season in sw…. red flag!!//… tod abel kickced a instructor out for talking trash../.…?..
Was that at the podium when that event took place or sidelines? Was it trash talk on a topic or a human being? Is this first hand or third party reported information?
WOW Dale1—You have to be going on rumors…….Were you at the session?
My research from R3 sources says no one was kicked out Instructors or otherwise.
All Instructors were there for the entire week. There was some discussion on
and a training session by the team to not discuss any thing about Yarnell Hill Fire.
prior to the Training session. My understanding is some of the team did not attend or get briefed on this rule but that was corrected during the training session.
So much for lessons learned in Arizona. No Discussion on mistakes or actions by GM you are to close in Prescott to the Graves of the Heroes. Discuss all other fires but not Yarnell and not ever on their home turf. My personnel appraisal.
I also know that the R3 HS crews are in full discussion during their training on all fires including Yarnell That’s a good thing.
I never in my life would have believed that could happen in a training session.
When people want to discuss and learn they are kept from that discussion of what happened at Yarnell and why?
WTKTT is right—-Nothing happened here just move on no more discussion.
The problem is out side R3 the discussion is in full swing and has been for 2 years.
I will add a personnel note here——
My dad died on the Rattlesnake fire.
They made mistakes and those mistakes are discussed every year and have been sense 1953 they are true lessons learned and I never felt that should not happen.
In the 10 Standard orders they discuss each one and the fires that created them.
Rattle Snake fire— Communications and Look out as well as The watch outs.
Numbers–3,4,7,11,&12.
Pure and simply lessons learned. I am more proud of the Fact that my Father was able to leave a legacy of Rules to insure others did not fail to identify the Hazards of the mistakes of the past.
There is a shroud over the actions and decisions of Granit Mountain and what happened. Fire Fighters should be able to discuss what happened and find conclusions as to the WHY.
Bob,
” I am more proud of the Fact that my Father was able to leave a legacy of Rules to insure others did not fail to identify the Hazards of the mistakes of the past.”
You’re a great man & firefighter. I wish we had more with guts and honesty like you. We need way more like you.
Woodsman
I also feel the same as woodsman on Bob powers and I too want to thank him for his honesty
Reply to Bob Powers post on March 15, 2016 at 9:03 am
>> Bob Powers said…
>>
>> My research from R3 sources says no one was kicked out
>> Instructors or otherwise.
>>
>> All Instructors were there for the entire week.
>>
>> There was some discussion on and a training session by the
>> team to not discuss any thing about Yarnell Hill Fire.prior to
>> the Training session. My understanding is some of the team
>> did not attend or get briefed on this rule but that was corrected
>> during the training session.
>>
>> So much for lessons learned in Arizona. No Discussion on
>> mistakes or actions by GM you are to close in Prescott to
>> the Graves of the Heroes. Discuss all other fires but not
>> Yarnell and not ever on their home turf. My personnel appraisal.
>>
>> I also know that the R3 HS crews are in full discussion during
>> their training on all fires including Yarnell That’s a good thing.
Yep… and a NECESSARY thing.
>> Bob Powers also said…
>>
>> I never in my life would have believed that could happen
>> in a training session.
>>
>> When people want to discuss and learn they are kept from
>> that discussion of what happened at Yarnell and why?
The very idea that an accredited ‘Wildland Training Academy’ would try, in any way, to establish ANY past fire fatality as ‘off limits for discussion’ is absurd.
>> Bob Powers also said…
>>
>> The problem is out side R3 the discussion is in full swing and
>> has been for 2 years.
I certainly hope so.
>> Bob Powers also said…
>>
>> I will add a personnel note here——
>>
>> My dad died on the Rattlesnake fire.
>>
>> They made mistakes and those mistakes are discussed
>> every year and have been sense 1953 they are true lessons
>> learned and I never felt that should not happen.
>>
>> In the 10 Standard orders they discuss each one and the fires
>> that created them.
>>
>> Rattle Snake fire— Communications and Look out as well as
>> The watch outs. Numbers–3,4,7,11,&12.
>>
>> Pure and simply lessons learned.
>>
>> I am more proud of the Fact that my Father was able to
>> leave a legacy of Rules to insure others did not fail to identify
>> the Hazards of the mistakes of the past.
>>
>> There is a shroud over the actions and decisions of Granite
>> Mountain and what happened.
>>
>> Fire Fighters should be able to discuss what happened and
>> find conclusions as to the WHY.
Totally agree.
And in case not enough people have said so often enough…
Your father would be very, very PROUD of you.
Throughout this extended discussion… YOUR “message” has been consistent, loud, clear and strong.
It’s a dangerous occupation.
The “rules of engagement” are NOT there for your entertainment.
The are not “hillbilly”.
They have already been PAID FOR at the highest possible rate
by others who have come before you ( your father included ).
You MUST follow them at all times… especially when you are hot
and tired and more likely to make bad decisions.
The life you save will be your own.
Hi Dale1. I am very sorry for the area where one judges based on your style of comment. We live in a programmable system. You be You and that’s fine be me. Now again I am asking what I did already but also help me understand you and the new news because it is important to me what you said. You have to understand I find it important to know was it a topic or human being this was over? If you said too much already… I actually understand that too. I’m still carrying forward 2015 wildland firefighters convention at Bucky’s and its content and Joanna Dodder pulling me aside and I can guarantee I was there first and had no idea 500-700 firefighters would be getting drunk at Bucky’s but I do wish the open ways they spoke that night came here public so if you were one of those drunk people I understand and Bob Powers is not right to assess the language part because I have met higher ups who can’t read or write well. As the system furthers along it is true more requirements are set on newcomers but not the current or soon to retire or retired ones. Please come back and answer best you can or call 480-280-5813 and leave voicemail …thank you
I would have to disagree on your assessment of Education.
The government will not hire any one who has not completed High School.
They also will not promote those who have trouble filling out simple reports, and can not express them selves in training lectures.
What I said above has been Hiring requirements for years.
Each individual is rated on their Performance annually. That performance includes the above information. That performance ratting is used in evaluating your promotions through a competitive evaluation of all applicants.
I would just like Dale1 to take the time to put forth a full and complete statement
if he truly has information to discuss here.
I am not judging his style of comment but his lack of information.
I still believe his comments are a deception to cover who he is and just point a finger with no other information. If you throw it at a wall and it sticks you made a point. He is always to busy to follow up due to Fire or Red Flag warnings no one works 24/7 he has days off and nights that he could expand on his topics.
That is another reason I think he is playing a game.
Dale1 Has been given every opportunity to explain himself over and over.
That is what we are doing here asking for more information. All he has done is reply one sentence at a time with nothing more than the first statement.
I will say again don’t hold your breath for any more info than what he has already imparted.
Saying a person has to finish high school is a. Requirement and I did not say that I said current and due to retire and retired …some do not know how to read or write or both and I said newcomers are different but a lot from the baby boomer generation and some from my generation did not receive the proper public education and that’s why our grandkids of today are in the deeply rooted programmable system and look at the older generation different because they are bred different than long ago. Individualism is becoming a thing of the past and I can tell you I learned that most in knowing Sonny because he is his own style of mountain man but just last night Bill tried to firmly tell me I could not have possibly hiked a certain area describing it to Sonny and Sonny choose to lean towards Bill and support him and the problem is not only have I hiked it I slept there all by myself and so he is trying to be serious and Sonny encouraged it not at all would you think either one was my friend but two old men thinking they know the mountains and I know shit so for this area I challenge Sonny Bill and me to be dropped off tightly blindfold and see who makes it back and see which one makes it back legally and not breaking any laws because those two seem to think they have the constitutional right to go where they please and I tend to think at five pm I prefer to stay on path versus dropping down a steep terrain with sliding rip rap when my tummy is so swollen that I can’t see my own feet so yes I prefer to be on my own path vs being led by a mountain goat. I have accepted Sonny has his style of the mountains but I am firm I never will support Sonny saved my life had we went my way at 12:38pm we had many hours to get to car but he has his way of thinking that my way would of killed me but I don’t support that nor that him coming back for me was a heroic move because so many times Sonny compares a hike to one of my bad ones because I’m spent. Yet I have hiked alone or at times with others very long hikes from Congress to surprise or wickenburg or Prescott or aguila n back…and on those trails I saw more quads than walkers or hikers and so when snowbird quad mentality Bill tells the desert walker his view…he is 100% wrong because I’ve done it…in all this I learned you get better treated by the state of Arizona if you feel like Sonny because my backpack has written permission slips and state land passes and I do my best to respect such and took the same hikes but I’m the one state came after and not Sonny after all I have done for this state…I always loved Arizona and its terrain but since the fire I lost all respect for the people running it if they can be so wrong…I’d be shaking my hand if I was them because I can’t tell you how much funds I made them for educating people on state land permits and hunting permits and prickley pear permits and so on…I cannot tell the state how many homeless people now live in a home because of my sharing to them and Sonny lived on ten acres west of the grand canyon…a place I name the gates of hell…and he said he was OK there yet when I was there I heard machine gun fire 25 ft away – sonny was neighbors on one side mexican cartel and other side deputy sheriff and the sheriff was called on a Thursday 930pm and does not show up until Sunday stating to sonny he told the guys he would handle it and looked to me as who am I and sonny tells him you said I was getting old and needed a walker so I got the desert walker Joy. The man looked at Sonny than me and was bewildered. He said you are not married? I than made born the saying yes…sonny and I are the old married couple..he’s old and I’m married. We sure bicker like an old married couple and share meals like one…our hikes and times were intensely educational because we are two different styles of people and hiking…sonny goes out with nothing and survives where when we first met I carried a lot of gear and water…86#s to start with as we weighed it but on good weather days..55-60#. So I did learn from Sonny some good stuff like you can survive the desert without carrying in water and use the terrain except he did not know you can’t legally eat prickley pear fruit without a permit and so he hates hiking with me being educated of Arizona laws because he says its bogus… Sonny and I will always clash for so many reasons but we are one another’s caregivers and for that we remain as is…so it cannot be labelled a dysfunctional phase because we both have learned a healthy dose of knowledge off another but you want to see me get hot than get on topic that you know this terrain better than me as a snowbird when I knew all the ok timers from the 1800s-early 1900s or cuisine all day old school cooking because one time I cooked and made a real nice fancy Italian dish called osobucco and just the name itself got sonny to open a can of sardines and be good so I don’t bother even cooking anymore but just because I don’t does not mean I lost it because I won’t lose that just not into foods much as it has not been there for me much at all…even stopped the Hershey with almond bar every ten weeks just a bad phase in my life I reckon…So anyways Sonny- thank you for being kinder today. And don’t say you are always a nice guy…and always kind because from where you stand that may be true but in some parts to knowing you it has been a challenge beyond my capabilities and maybe you see that nowadays I am not you nor crave to be you but anytime Bill or you want to take me on…bring it. Im capable there and again blind fold…sorry for any typos…
Oh and where is dale1 to reply…I don’t give it much thought or weight for pop ins like that..reminds me of an old username on here that did that…sonny by the way you are one of my desert mentors because I would have not known about my local I dian root and its location and you cut into it and put that in your mouth for endurance hike to create moisture and saliva and so you are extremely intelligent on the desert and I think I could not have made same challenge before I met you without having my gear…because of you I can do it without gear so thank you…you are priceless.,.. I wish you the best.. In all you do wherever you are….because you deserve only the best…Happy trails my hiking pal,…until we meet again in a few weeks…
Don’t feel bad Dale, I have a bat hide and still misspell–especially if I had a few beers. Sometimes I write incomplete sentences and at other times try to revamp the English language to my notions at the time. So forgive me if I am on the low rung of intelligence–seems I have lost a few brain cells over the past few years. Give us what you know–the great ones here will sort out the shit from the shinola and we will all benefit. Keep reporting but give us a longer synopsis of things if you get settled enough to do it. Maybe a lot more of who you are and what you do would be pleasing to the people here.
That guy with the black GMC–we did look for it to see what trailer he lives in. He could be high class trailer trash. Dean, my brother in law was–at least in Phoenix where he rented a trailer. Actually he was a multi millionaire, owned 5 air planes–he taught WW2 Veterans how to fly planes–and actually had a nice home in Mora, MN. I never liked trailers–they rock too much in the wind and otherwise. But $70,000 pickup trucks are pretty but I do prefer my 73. If you open the door on his truck I bet it says made in Mexico. Fords do of that cost. My 73 is 100% American made and you can sit on the hood without denting it. It uses points instead of all the electronic do dads that are designed to keep a shade tree mechanic from fixing. That 350 engine in front of a four speed that weighs nearly as much as the engine comes up the Yarnell Hill faster than a bat out of hell if I want it to. Also all the fancy cars and pickups without scratches give me plenty of space–they don’t know if that old beater has good brakes or not or if I have insurance. I have both but they don’t need to know. And strangely this old truck that cost me $1200 cash and had only a little over 50,000 miles on it but had been in a fender bender and had set for years in a hanger. So a black fender and strange looking door sets it off so I can easily find it in a crowded parking lot.
http://www.aifuneralhome.com/2015/06/23/dean-carl-johnson/
Joy says it could be construed wrong what I said about trailer trash. The way I intended was that your abode does not necessarily indicate your class. I myself was brought up in a tent and had my youngest son brought into a lean too when I was mining fire agate at Deer Creek, Arizona. Some situations require rough living according to some standards. We never thought of it that way–at least I did not. My sisters thought it bad to have to bath in a tin tub but they always got the first baths–boys followed since the girls were cleaner.
Still I would not trade that kind of growing up for any kind of other. What kid gets to hunt all day or work in a mine if he chooses. Fortunately we did not have an overbearing father. It is what Joy talks about–the system. We say we encourage independent thinking in this educational system but then I saw 17 firefighters go to their death and yet I have to attribute the deaths to the folly of their leaders.
The leaders that are today alive after the Yarnell Fire give us no solid information on why their men died. They can only say that God, accident, or the determination to do what they do–save structures account for their deaths. Yet we know from Donut’s lack of respect of wild land fire fighting safety rules (hill billy he says) leads right to how deficient those men were in respecting the very safety measures that would have kept them alive. My own instinct kept Joy and I alive but that I can see came from being familiar with the terrain and dangers of getting hooked down hill toward a near by- wild fire. If I had reviewed the wild land safety rules at the time I could have only said those make good common sense. You really can not argue that going down a steep box in canyon into a maze of dry brush is an intelligent thing even if you are a structure protector. But then to risk 17 lives because they believe in your expert bossing abilities and some flimsy fire blankets was total insanity.
I chided Joy when I came back for her that the State would have me up for murder if I had not returned to drag her back with me. She was inclined to do what the GMHS actually did. But the murder thing was not a joke since I knew the danger and she did not –so indeed I would have carried culpability and guilt for allowing her todo what certainly would have gotten her killed. I knew this–but why did I and the GMHS did not? And no I am not special, since Rick McKisey knew. But then every wild land fire fighter, smoke jumper, and investigator that goes to the place and looks down with an image of what those men faced by doing that is stymied as well.
So this historic tragedy demands solutions not excuses.
Closing that area off to hikers is also a blunder. It seems ever things the officials have done since day one of the Yarnell Hill fire on June 28, 2013 has been about 99% blunder. People that used to use that trail as their jogging trail (we talked to several locals who used that as a hiking area) are now cut off. Most importantly wild land fire fighters who wish to pay respects and as well see how those men were led to their deaths are restricted. Then the people who pay the taxes on these lands and have footed the bill all the way from paying money to loved ones, to buying the half section of land, then money for memorial and another 670 thousand for a parking place for a trail to no where are bilked and restricted from the very area they are paying for. This reeks of a design to hide the defects of a wild land fire fighting system that is responsible for the deaths of these 19–in this case something that was absolutely preventable.
Gary Olsen’s dream of Steed and Marsh with Steed saying you have killed us, and Marsh saying I know, I am sorry is so true to form. But sorry does not suffice in this case–Only answers and solutions will do here.
Charlie said: Still I would not trade that kind of growing up for any kind of other. What kid gets to hunt all day or work in a mine if he chooses. Fortunately we did not have an overbearing father
MY REPLY:what kid thinks like that Sonny? None I ever met even grandkids today look at your stories as strange as they have no comprehension who would love the life and day in a tent 24-7 all the time which their dad and you lived it-
Charlie said: People that used to use that trail as their jogging trail (we talked to several locals who used that as a hiking area) are now cut off.
MY REPLY: Just last night Snowbird Bill said he was even formally cut off by Maughans newer manager Don Glosglow-
Charlie said: The leaders that are today alive after the Yarnell Fire give us no solid information on why their men died.
MY REPLY: Even in recent wildfire academy training the YHF is to be brushed under a rug especially on their turf when it should be talked about and not denied such opportunities- that in itself is poor management training-
Charlie said: . But the murder thing was not a joke since I knew the danger and she did not
MY REPLY: Again, how many times do you have your perception but does not match the reality of that day and that heat and how many miles did we hike that week before 6-30-13 Sonny—it was no fireworks or me thinking unburned fuel—I felt at 12:38pm I had plenty of time to get to your car on Foothills- however you want to feel is your perception not shared by me.
Chralie said:This reeks of a design to hide the defects of a wild land fire fighting system that is responsible for the deaths of these 19–in this case something that was absolutely preventable.
MY REPLY: They still have a chance to change it- they should change it—aren’t these 19 lives plus so many more worth that—I think so—I think they deserve the changes.
I had a weird dream last night. I dreamed I heard Jesse Steed’s and Eric Marsh’s last radio communication. It went like this;
Steed to Marsh: “YOU KILLED US!”
Marsh to Steed: “I know…I’m sorry.”
Gary that one sent chills up my back. Whew, I think you are getting at the reality of that fatal day.
I had a short day today so I am getting caught up on my Facebook page (AKA…Our Fire Gods) because everyone needs to know what I am doing..
Wish You Were Here!
http://ourfiregods.com/reserved2.html
Damm I should have hooked up my Jeep to my Four Wheeler trailer and joined you.
Did you get Rain it rained and snowed here today. Have a good time I am sure you are.
Next time! God Willin’..
Oh…and one more thing. Why do they call the Red River the Colorado and the Verde River the Green?
Whoops.
We are supposed to get it tomorrow and they say to stay out of the canyons here when it rains, unless you have a death wish…which I don’t.
John said he lived on four acres next to Phil so these are the only possible parcels: Parcel 203-06-040 ESQUERRA RONALD LEE & GLORIA GEORGE JT 16366 W Norton Way 3.5 acres OR 203-06-009E 22036 S State Route 89 4.8 acres which is Phil’s place itself and we can assume Phil’s property being John said he got to his location by going through two gates so that fact would make it Phil’s gates into U-Stow It.
We met John at the Wittmann flea market–and talking with him we found he was also a Yarnellite. He told me he goes all over to different flea markets. John said he was here when the huge plume went up then collapsed on Yarnell. His trailer on Phil Snyder’s property was left behind for the evacuation. As he was leaving there were fire men foaming Phil Snyder’s Place so he spoke to them about his abode and trailer. He felt secure leaving but upon his return he found that they had not taken care of his property. Many items were missing and he was disturbed about that and confronted officials about the problem.
John told us he knows investigator incident commanders who he has conversed with about the fire. He tells me that the commander he knows says that murder charges should be brought against more than Marsh and his opinion was that some from the Yarnell fire fire department should have been imprisoned. As far as anyone getting any credit for a good job at Yarnell for their Yarnell Fire fighting efforts he said instead they ought to be investigated and some put up for criminal charges. To his way of thinking neither Marsh, Steed nor any of the ram rods should take the status of a hero.
Further he wanted to know where all the money went that Paul the Pastor and the Presbyterian Church Managed. He says many people gave him money which he gave to that organization, yet now he wishes he had not. He says he gave about ten thousand and there is a big question there as to where the money went. He also wonders why so many that lost their homes and had insurance are still not pay. It is a fact that many were unhappy with how the money that so many donated. The McCrackens had a friend donate ten grand to the group specifically given so they would have money for the building permit to replace their home. When they went to collect they were denied and told the money was instead put into the general fund. I wondered how they could deny those fine people when their friend gave with instructions that he wanted the money to go to the McCracken family. I wonder were they Presbyterians would they have gotten the money. Joy and I got wind of this early so when we did have funds given or items we instead went direct to people in need.
John was also angered about the Martial Law situation. He saw no reason for it and how individuals were treated during that time. It has disgusted him so much about all that went down that he now avoids Yarnell even though he keeps property here. His next destination for the summer is Colorado.
Good luck John. Many if not most of the locals understand your anger and frustration at how things were handled and continue to be handled. I do not know who the incident commander was that looked at this situation and felt criminal charges were in order–not accolades and hand clapping to BS. If he is reading this we hope he comes on to share his views and why.
Joy and I were out in the front yard today when a government black gmc drove very slow past the place and on their way out he rolled the window down and asked Joy something and she got up and we both went and spoke to the man and he said he lives by Leroy in Peeples Valley so that is by Quail/Buckhorn area and his family was there the day of the fire and he was showing his brother from Montana the aftermath of the homes in the area. It was a good conversation. The man offered for us to visit anytime over his place- we may just do that.
didd u go to the ariz wildfire academmy …. see wat Todd Abel did lasst week…./?
http://m.dcourier.com/news/2016/mar/06/annual-arizona-wildfire-incident-management-academ/?
I can’t see much on what he said via cell but wait until Sonny tells you about what happened today on who he met that knows the higher ups. He lived in Yarnell next to UStow it and left 4am July 1 2013 because his gfriend wanted out but he knew a lot and saw a lot. John something..Mayer or Morris…let Sonny tell it..
https://m.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=1107012155977615&id=100000065243934&set=a.159575274054646.38896.100000065243934&source=11&refid=17#
I have important question to me…my cell is capable of so much but the link above is that Todd Abel who was on yhf? I have seen him in person…it must of been the convention at Bucky’s where we met hundreds of firefighters…. Well if that is the case and it is him I was only a few feet away from when a retired Flagstaff higher up was talking to me and I remembered that talk very well…I wonder if was just a coincidence moment or set up now looking back but if he is cyfd than from day one I said cyfd could shed light on this fire and sun city fire dept but still no one yet posted on here but I stand firm after all who talked to us at that Bucky’s the topic laid on those folks…yet I don’t remember them in said..hmmm….odd
Darn talk to text…few errors…oh well…now I see why I was compared to Yoda same week by gary n my brother Paul
Not sure what Dale1 was referring to except Todd Able was in Charge of the Academy. Hopefully they teach the 10 and 18 and that it is not Hillbilly or no longer rules???????
Would also Add that our friend RTS was there as a Instructor all last week.
dale1,
And what did Todd Able allegedly do at the AZ Wildfire Academy last week?
Reply to Robert the Second ( RTS ) post on
March 13, 2016 at 9:02 pm
>> RTS said…
>>
>> And what did Todd Able allegedly do at
>> the AZ Wildfire Academy last week?
I think that’s all dale1 was trying to point out.
Todd Abel ‘did’ the AZWA last week.
No subtext.
Todd Abel was, in fact, the “Incident Commander” for the 2016 AZWA thing.
The AZWA is really bad at updating their website(s).
The best information ( and pictures ) of what went on at last week’s AZWA are on their Facebook page…
https://www.facebook.com/Arizona-Wildfire-and-Incident-Management-Academy-113390165360151/
Many photos there of the usual things.
Newbies trying to figure out how to get under the green practice shelters, blindfolded newbies trying to work their way through that little concrete and gravel ‘maze’ they cooked up, stuff like that.
There’s also a photo of the entire 2016 AWIMA Incident Management Team.
You will see the usual suspects.
Todd Abel, Tony Sciacca… etc.
Here’s a direct link to that Facebook photo of all the ‘usual suspects’.
The entire 2016 AWIMA Incident Management Team.
https://www.facebook.com/113390165360151/photos/a.244354315597068.74367.113390165360151/1139474202751737/?type=3&theater
a speaker wass made to stop at wildfire academy..//…
Well Ill do it again and bite.
Where is this info coming from and what are you saying.
Did some one twist a tail by Bringing up the Yarnell hill fire?
Are you promoting a rumor or some fact?
Is this information on the internet or are you just referring to the Arizona wildfire Academy ?
You as usual leave a lot to the imagination .
Explain in 50 words or more some plausible information?
Not holding my breath————
I knew folks there and I never heard anyone was stopped? not even for paparazzi moments-
Thanks Bob Powers–Donut’s famous saying–“those rules are hill billy”. Seems like Donut convinced the whole crew that day.
Hillbilly rulres? You think McDonough pulled that out of his ass on his own? Not me. I bet it came from the same people who advised him to ask all of his Facebook friends to not talk to the media about him less that 24 hours after the burnover
I would put my bet on —- it came from who trained him.
Like a 100 to 1 odds.
good to see you calvin-
hope all is well with you
Thanks joy.
to officer who reads this area- https://youtu.be/SLTuvEegQkA 11:50 mark
was that one of them?
Interesting take from an ex hotshot and firefighter on YHF and the 19 men:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dY2IqVAUIBo
did you notice what he began to speak about four minutes in…
than by six minute mark he blames the incident command area-
I was watching this video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gWjyZJF_Gzw
funny thing is I remembered that name as one of the firefighters like Cordes who got awards and Poster got his a few months after video above-
http://theketchumkeystone.org/2013/12/16/bowman-poster-named-firefighters-of-the-year/
at 5:33 on this video and learning this man’s perception of slopes and fire spread-
than I shake my head and wonder how come all nineteen knowing this- went into unburned fuel- there has to be more information to understand it.
I know Marcia McKee gets what I am saying here—-one or two firefighters—okay but 19??????
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uMGuiv2SYeg&list=PLTErVrHH6uJja-ljtn7z9Q5Sz9WtCPGw1
Reply to Joy A. Collura post on March 11, 2016 at 10:46 pm
>> Joy A. Collura said…
>>
>> What I got from their YHF account is they left all their pets behind and
>> they all lived even the fish and exotic pets. They left when street was
>> ablazed and were one of the last ones out and the electric was out.
>> They went to Peoria Arizona and were allowed back in every couple
>> days to water and feed pets by authority escort. They did state when
>> they left is when all the fire folks and their equipment left so I asked if they
>> had any photos and they said only returning they took photos. They do live
>> near the Helms area-
>>
>> I wish I could ask more questions but the band had to get gear together-
>>
>> I can tell you it was very unfair how some folks were barred from even
>> entering during that no one allowed in Yarnell week July 2013 and some
>> were escorted and both had pets and one had meds to get- strange world.
Strange indeed… considering that a little know fact is that Insurance Companies ( specifically Liberty Mutual ) were sending in their own ‘structure protection’ teams during that entire time Yarnell and Glen Ilah and Peeples Valley were supposedly ‘off limits’ and no one was allowed in.
The ‘insurance companies’ just didn’t trust Arizona Forestry… and starting on July 1, 2013, they started sending in their OWN ‘Wildfire Response Teams’ to the Yarnell / Peeples Valley area do actual structural protection… even setting up their own ‘sprinkler’ systems for structure protection.
As early as the very day after the Yarnell tragedy ( on July 1, 2013 ), the Liberty Mutual Insurance company sent a number of their own ‘Widfire Resource Teams’ into the Peeples Valley area in order to do their OWN ‘Structure Protection’ for homes protected by Liberty Mutual.
These ‘Wildfire Resource Teams’ were entering/exiting the Yarnell Hill fire area for WEEKS following the tragedy… doing what they do ( protecting structures ).
In addition… these Liberty Mutual insurance company ‘teams’ became one of the only way for residents of Peeples Valley to know whether their houses had been lost, or not.
The residents of Peeples Valley were not hearing jack shit from Arizona Forestry, but the people at Liberty Mutual were in direct contact with their own ‘Wildfire Resource Teams’ that were there on the ground in Peeples Valley… and the Insurance company itself was taking phone calls and ‘addresses’ from people and then getting their own teams to check on those addresses and report back about them.
The insurance company ‘teams’ were even able to take ‘pictures’ of these addresses and Liberty Mutual was making sure they got back to the residents who were calling them.
These ‘Yarnell’ stories are coming from someone who calls herself the “Backyard Chicken Lady”.
She and her husband live in Peeples Valley and she raises prize chickens… and it was only because of the kind people at Liberty Mutual Insurance company that she and her husband were able to find out whether they had lost their home in Peeples Valley…
http://backyardchickenlady.blogspot.com/2013/07/update-on-yarnell-hill-fire-fire.html
From her BLOG…
———————————————————————————-
BLOG post: July 3, 2013.
UPDATE ON YARNELL HILL FIRE – Fire Perimeter Update
( PHOTO of a MAP showing Yarnell Fire Perimeter as of July 3, 2013 )
Yesterday the map showed that most of Peeples Valley proper was within the perimeter of the active fire area. Why the difference today? Because the Esri’s maps update whenever the centralized source (the U.S. Geological Survey (USGS) called GeoMAC) updates their database. The USGS uses thermal imaging (among other methods) to detect what areas are within the fires perimeters…this is not 100% accurate, but very close. So it looks like last night they were able to get new information and therefore changed the perimeter.
I also called Liberty Mutual Insurance again this morning to get an update from the Wildfire Resource Team on the ground in Peeples Valley. She told me that according to their report, the fire had not burned our house or the neighboring houses. It was close by our community and they did need to do some protective measures (including setting up sprinklers on the roof as a last effort to protect a house) for some houses in Peeples Valley but they could not tell me specifically which ones, so I assume those must have been houses on the outskirts of the primary housing area, such as those further up in the hills to the West and South of Peeples Valley proper. The person I spoke to said she was looking at a picture of my house from last nights 8:40pm report and it was fine…she identified several vehicles in front of my house so I know it was actually mine. She said I could call back later this afternoon for further updates.
I want to again thank Paul for keeping me posted of the mapping updates, the wonderful people at Liberty Mutual Insurance, the Wildfire Resource Team for the on-the-ground updates, and to all the wonderful people who are Praying for our community and the fallen firefighters and their families. The out pour of generosity has been so comforting. THANK YOU!!!
———————————————————————————-
Some additional BLOG posts from the “Backyard Chicken Lady”.
This is the one where she explains who she and her husband are… and she details their own harrowing ‘escape’ from Peeples Valley on Sunday, June 30, 2013..
She even had already heard her own ‘rumor’ that on Friday night, Arizona Bureau of Land Management ( BLM ) were the ones that thought the initial lightning strike would just ‘burn itself out’ and that’s whey they did nothing on Friday.
Russ Shumate was the Arizona Forestry ‘duty officer’ on Friday who turned into the ICT4 for the Yarnell Hill Fire… and it was basically HIS decision to ‘do nothing’ on the Friday when the fire started… but it is a fact that he was also ‘consulting’ with BLM that Friday.
http://backyardchickenlady.blogspot.com/2013/07/yarnell-hills-fire-continues-to-burn-as.html
————————————————————————–
My husband and I live in Peeples Valley, AZ where the Yarnell Hill Fire is burning out of control. The fire started on Friday and it is believed that it started by lightening during our first monsoon storm of the season. The area where it started is high in the mountains between the small towns of Yarnell and Peeples Valley. The rough terrain is covered with chaparral pines, scrub oak, and manzenita’s and it is all very dry…the perfect fire-storm just waiting to happen.
From what I understand (from a reliable source) the BLM thought the small fire in the mountains would burn itself out so they sent home some of the fire crew. Saturday mid-morning we saw the smoke from the fire. It appeared to be a few mountains over and looked pretty small at that time. But within just a few hours the wind kicked up and so did the fire. We watched the fire growing in size and intensity from our front porch in Peeples Valley. Saturday night it was obvious that the fire was rapidly approaching our community. We were afraid to go to sleep that night for fear that the Sheriff’s office would be evacuating our town while we were asleep. We don’t have a home phone so we would not receive a reverse 911 call (which is the standard practice), so I left our bedroom window open a little so we would at least hear sirens if they were going door-to-door during the night. We had a restless nights sleep that night, but no evacuation came.
( Snip )
Now that we had all of our pets and grandkids in the trucks we took off. This was so scary because as we were driving out the only exit road from our community the fire was so close to us. If it continued to burn much longer it might close off our only way of getting out. About 15 minutes after we left Peeples Valley the wind shifted with the monsoon storm coming in from the north. This southern wind was very strong, it almost blew me over when I was pulled over to check on the chickens in the back of the pick-up. This change in direction of the winds is what pushed the fire back towards the town of Yarnell. The winds were so strong that they moved the fire so fast that the fire crews were not able to do anything to stop it.
The fire quickly burned into Yarnell and trapped the 19 Hotshot crew members, and burning on into the town of Yarnell, burning a large number of homes. I learned about the change in direction causing the death of the 19 young men from my daughter who was at home in Prescott Valley watching the news. She called me on my cell. I almost could not believe what I was hearing. My heart felt so heavy, I began to cry for the loss of these young lives. I have not been able to stop the tears every time think about them. They gave their lives to save us and our homes. It is so unfair…their lives were not a fair trade for our homes. Homes can be rebuilt, but their families will forever be without them.
————————————————————————–
NOTE: There is also a VIDEO of the Yarnell Hill Fire that she took embedded in the BLOG post above. It’s actually that video with the ‘flag waving’ in the foreground which has been seen before. It shows the fire at the moment it was still moving north towards Peeples Valley and pretty much the moment when it was consuming the ‘Double Bar-A’ ranch that Darrell Willis had been trying to protect. even though he had said the night before such an effort would be useless.
This is the BLOG post from “Backyard Chicken Lady” where she details how she was getting NO INFORMATION from Arizona Forestry… and it was only when she called Liberty Mutual Insurance that she was able to get any information at all.
It also mentions how these special “Wildfire Response Teams” were there protecting structures all day… but had to “leave the area” each day at sunset and then had to be ‘allowed back in’ each day following the fire.
These ‘Widlfire Response Teams’ also ( apparently ) had their OWN ‘Retardant’ and/or ‘Foam’ that they were using to protect structures.
http://backyardchickenlady.blogspot.com/2013/07/finally-we-get-some-news-about-yarnell.html
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BLOG POST – July 2, 2013
BLOG TITLE: Finally we get some news about the Yarnell Hills Fire… From some unlikely sources
Finally we get some answers about the status of the fire burning in our community. And the answers didn’t come from the Fire agencies or the news media covering this fire.
Today Paul Doherty, PhD, Public Safety Technology Specialist, who works for Esri, a software company that supports most government agencies with geographic information systems (GIS), shared an interactive map of the Yarnell Hills Fire on Twitter. Here is the map:
( MAP of the Yarnell Fire perimeter as of July 2, 2013 )
Immediately I could see that my community, Peeples Valley, was within the fires perimeters. When I zoomed in I could see my street, and then my home, all within the perimeter. Paul explained that the map shows the perimeter of the fire, but there could be areas within that perimeter that did not burn. So even though most of my neighborhood was within the perimeter, it is still possible that our home did not burn yet. While I was relieved to finally have some information, I still didn’t know if my home was still standing or not. I tried to call the different fire agencies working this fire to verify that it was now burning in Peeples Valley and to see if they had lost any homes yet. But I could not get an answer from anyone. Even the press conference held this afternoon didn’t shed any light on the situation for us evacuees waiting and wondering if we have a home to go home to. They just wouldn’t tell us anything.
Then I remember that my home insurance company, Liberty Mutual, had called us Monday morning to tell us about a free service that our insurance provides called the ‘Wildfire Prevention Program’, where they send in a Wildlife Resource Team (WRT) into the evacuated area to proactively work to protect our home by applying a flame retardant material to the wood surfaces of our house, clear any flammables from around our house, including clearing the land of flammable brush, and they will even set up sprinklers on the roof to protect it from catching fire from flying embers. And this service does not cost us one penny!
Knowing they were going in to the area to do this for all homeowners who had Liberty Mutual Insurance, I thought, why not call them to see if they knew if the team had done any protective measures to our house yet. When I called I spoke to a very nice lady who seemed to be really concerned for my feelings and my situation. She said, “I think I can do even better then that, hold on a moment.” She put me on hold for maybe a couple of minutes, then returned to say she had just check the status of the WRT working in our community. According to their last update at approximately noon today, the fire was reported to be very close to our home, but our home had not burned as of that time.” She said the team has to leave the area each evening when it gets dark, and at that time they would be submitting a new update for the day. So she told me to call back in the morning and they would tell me what they new.
Is that Awesome or what?! I was treated so nice and they were so helpful when I could not get any information from any local agencies. Now I have a little peace of mind knowing that as of noon today my home is still standing, even though there is fire burning through our neighborhood. We have shared this information with our friends and neighbors in our neighborhood as best we can.
I want to send a special “Thank You” to Paul Doherty and to the folks at Liberty Mutual Insurance company. One thing is for sure…if our house is still standing after this fire has burned out, because of the efforts of Wildfire Resource Team, then we will be switching All of our insurance policies to Liberty Mutual Insurance…because they certainly earned it with their proactive approach to taking care of their insureds.
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Most Engines carry foam liquid that can be mixed with water for Structures. It is a mix with a special nozzle.
They did a lot of that in Yellowstone in 1984 to protect historic structures and Park buildings.
Yes, Helicopter Pilot Phil of the U Stow it got that foam work on his home during the fire. I don’t know who else they did that for–but John who was staying nearby asked them to do his trailer home as well. He said they neglected him. But then behind Phil’s home and U Stow it was a huge load of fire retardant dumped off the Jumbo Jet and with the wind going parallel to that dumped load it did suffice to hold the fire from advancing down to a few homes on the north end of Yarnell. Included was Maughan Ranch Store but that is on the East side of 89, U stow it is on the west side and a bit closer to town. In the high winds you can bet even that jumbo jet string of fire retardant would not have stopped that fire. We were getting embers on our vehicle some quarter mile from the fire as we were leaving Yarnell down the hill.
**
** USFS – Technology and Development Program.
**
** STORIES ABOUT TROUBLESOME FFS AND WHAT TO DO ABOUT THEM
When I was searching below for the source of those ‘rules’ that are printed on the official “What it takes to be a Hotshot” list on that Sandwich Board at the official Yarnell ‘Town’ Memorial to the GM Hotshots ( the ‘list’ which starts with “1. Hotshots must strictly obey orders” )… I stumbled across this other interesting link I hadn’t seen before.
On the US Forestry Service’s “Technology and Development” website, they have lots of what they deem to call “Training materials” and “Publications” to be used by people doing “training” for USFS.
One list of publications actually includes about every ‘fuck up’ scenario you can imagine… and some actual ‘real stories’ about what trainers are supposed to take away from those incidents and what they are supposed to “tell” the people they are training.
Believe it or not… some of the ‘stories’ are being told in order to give training managers and idea of how to actually convince FFs to do things you want them to do… even when they are protesting… such as is covered in their “Questioning Tactics” section.
USDA – United States Department of Agriculture
USFS – United States Forest Service
TD – Technology and Development Program
Firefighter Cohesion and Entrapment Avoidance Facilitator’s Notes
Publications
http://www.fs.fed.us/t-d/pubs/htmlpubs/htm09512807/page08.htm
Table of Contents
————————————————————————————-
Short Overview of Each Story
A brief synopsis of each story is included to help facilitators consider the stories they may want to use during their training.
Problem 1: Firefighters Not Getting Along
Story 1: Out To Compete With Everybody
This story from a hotshot superintendent discusses how he resolved a problem caused by a hotshot crew that was trying to show everybody else up.
Story 2: The Excitement Is Gone
In this story, a crew boss discusses two crewmembers who were complaining because they were bored while mopping up. The leader saw these two firefighters causing a cohesion problem.
Story 3: He Didn’t Get To Be Crew Boss
This story is from a crew boss trainee who faced a cohesion problem caused by a jealous squad boss.
Problem 2: Working With Unfamiliar Resources
Story 1: Grab People Off Districts
In this story, a crew boss discusses when he put together a type II crew and built cohesion among firefighters who came from different districts.
Story 2: Resources I Hadn’t Worked With Before
In this story, a strike team leader discusses how he built cohesion when he was assigned several engines he had never worked with before.
Story 3: Crew Straggling In
In this story, the incident commander of a type 4 fire discusses when he called for an additional crew to help fight the fire. He had to tie these new firefighters into an existing crew.
Story 4: They Welcomed Us In
In this story, a contract crew leader talks about not being given a chance to build cohesion with federal firefighters. He explains how a smokejumper in charge brought a federal crew and a contract crew together.
Problem 3: The Fire Gets Hot and Firefighters Get Nervous
Story 1: The Fire Was Really Picking Up
In this story, a crew boss discusses how he kept his crew cohesive when the fire picked up.
Story 2: We Had People in a Panic
In this story, a helibase manager discusses moving a large number of firefighters and equipment quickly and cohesively from a helispot that was threatened with a burnover.
Story 3: We Have Spots All Over the Place
In this story, a squad boss describes how he kept his squad together when a fire blew up.
Problem 4: Can’t Trust Other Firefighters
Story 1: This Person Was Dangerous
In this story, a hotshot superintendent discusses a person on his crew he couldn’t trust. The firefighter was too aggressive and didn’t follow orders—posing a danger both to himself and to the crew.
Story 2: We Have Spot Fires Behind Us
In this story, a hotshot superintendent discusses his distrust of another crew because they weren’t watching his crew’s back.
Problem 5: Resources Out of the Loop
Story 1: They Felt Isolated
In this story, a federal firefighter describes when he had to integrate a group of structural firefighters into the larger firefighting operation after they found themselves out of the loop.
Story 2: He Was Freelancing
In this story, a division supervisor discusses how she responded when a dozer operator was out of the loop and the fire was picking up.
Problem 6: Questioning Tactics
Story 1: We’re Not Going
This story from a strike team leader discusses three type II crews who were working for her on a fire. One of the crew bosses refused to send his crew into an area he thought was dangerous and the strike team leader had to build cohesion with the crew boss.
Story 2: Should We Be Here?
In this story, a dozer boss discusses building cohesion with a dozer operator after the operator questioned whether it was safe to engage the fire.
Problem 7: Lacking Local Knowledge
Story 1: Out of Their Element
In this story, a leader discusses building cohesion with a hotshot crew that didn’t have experience with range fires.
Story 2: You’re on People’s Turf
In this story, a leader who was assigned to be an IC in a part of the country where he didn’t have experience explains how he integrated himself into the local resources to create cohesion.
Problem 8: Home Unit Loyalties and Cliques
Story 1: Best Friends
In this story, a crew boss discusses dealing with three best friends on his crew who were troublemakers causing cohesion problems.
Story 2: We Needed To Bring Them Together
In this story, a crew boss trainee discusses how he built a cohesive crew from several district crews that had their own leaders and unit loyalties.
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http://www.pownetwork.org/bios/e/e046.htm
http://deniseroggio.com/walt-eckes/
I heard this couple’s account from the YHF tonight-
they are in the Glen Ilah subdivision near Sonny.
He was setting up at the Yarnell Diner to play his guitar-
What I got from their YHF account is they left all their pets behind and they all lived even the fish and exotic pets. They left when street was ablazed and were one of the last ones out and the electric was out. They went to Peoria Arizona and were allowed back in every couple days to water and feed pets by authority escort. They did state when they left is when all the fire folks and their equipment left so I asked if they had any photos and they said only returning they took photos. They do live near the Helms area-
I wish I could ask more questions but the band had to get gear together-
I can tell you it was very unfair how some folks were barred from even entering during that no one allowed in Yarnell week July 2013 and some were escorted and both had pets and one had meds to get- strange world.
Joy,
Thank you for the information on your amazing neighbors in Glen Ilah.
For those that didn’t follow your links:
Mr. Walter Eckes: New Yorker, Marine, artist, musician, animal lover, POW escapee.
“Walt Eckes was born in 1946 in New York City, New York. He enlisted in the U.S. Marine Corps on February 12, 1964, and after completing basic training he was trained as a radio operator. His first assignment was with the 1st Battalion, 8th Marines of the 2nd Marine Division at Camp Lejeune, North Carolina, from July 1964 to November 1965, during which time he participated in the Invasion of the Dominican Republic in May and June 1965. Pvt Eckes deployed to Southeast Asia and was assigned to Headquarters Battery, 2nd Battalion, 12th Marines of the 3rd Marine Division in South Vietnam in November 1965, and transferred to F Battery in March 1966. He was captured by the Viet Cong in South Vietnam on May 10, 1966, and managed to escape from his captors on June 17, 1966. LCPL Eckes made it back to friendly lines on June 20, 1966, and was transferred to Headquarters Battalion of the 3rd Marine Division later that month to finish out his tour. He returned to the U.S. in December 1966, and then served with D Battery, 2nd Battalion, 10th Marines of the 2nd Marine Division at Camp Lejeune from January to March 1967, followed by service with Company A, 1st Battalion, 6th Marines of the 2nd Marine Division at Camp Lejeune from March to September 1967. CPL Eckes then returned to D Battery, 2nd Battalion, 10th Marines from September 1967 to January 1968. His final assignment was with F Battery, 2nd Battalion, 10th Marines from January 1968 until he left active duty on February 9, 1968. CPL Eckes received an honorable discharge from the U.S. Marine Corps Reserve on February 11, 1970.”
Gary told us law enforcement are trained to win and he is correct. There is another group in our country that is also trained to win and I believe is on another level commitment wise than law enforcement: the United States Military! Of this group of trained winners and survivors, the United States Marine Corps take this commitment to an even higher level. That’s why, as my old Army buddy used to tell me, ‘even a Marine cook thinks he’s a badass’ …because they are. Every Marine is a trained survivor. Semper Fi and God bless the Marine Corps!
How tough and committed are Marines? Are they trained to win? You tell me:
“They were on the trail
for 3-4 days, and the prisoners were in bad shape. Eckes lost his toenails
due to a combination the effects of poor health and exposure, having been
required to wear “Ho Chi Minh” sandals. The left side of his face was badly
infected from insect bites, and his weight had dropped to 98 pounds.
At dinner that night, Eckes made a decision. He had endured all he felt he
could, and planned to make a break, but didn’t know what to do. He and
Dodson discussed it, and both agreed they had to escape if they were to
survive.
Eckes and Dodson were traveling with about 18 Viet Cong and three of them
stayed with the prisoners during their rice meal that evening. The guards
also started to eat, and for the first time during the trip, all three
guards propped their weapons on a tree about 20 feet away. Eckes and Dodson
seemed compliant, and the guards felt confident. The other fifteen guards
were some distance away eating.
After the meal, Eckes and Dodson had to wash out their canteen cups in a
stream directly behind the Viet Cong. When they stood up, the guards
believed they were going to wash their cups, but instead, the POWs took the
rifles, grabbed a few supplies and took off through the jungle. It was June
17.
For the next several days, Eckes and Dodson were chased through the jungle,
and eventually made their way to a PF post just outside An Hoa (about 25
miles southwest of Da Nang), where a Marine base was located. The two were
brought in by ambulance to An Hoa, on June 20 and then flown to Da Nang
where medical needs were seen to and they were debriefed.”
THAT’S how committed and trained to win U.S. Marines are. They don’t have permission to die!
Right here I’m having a personal conflict. We had former Marines on the Granite Mountain crew that were also trained to win. One was directly in command of the crew the day they all died. What happened after entering service in wildland firefighting that changed this commitment to survival – or did it change? If Gary is correct it means we have taken a man (Steed), who has been trained at the highest level possible to win, put him the wildland firefighting profession who trains to lose and he lost. OR – something else happened that overcame this focus on winning/survival.
Are we ‘trained to lose’ in the wildland service as Gary suggested? Are we trained to crawl into death bags and die or should we run………..
I know one thing: I’m not laying down in a damn shelter while I wait for the fire to arrive……I’m dropping shit and hauling ass. I’m training to win every time. I have survived mine and will continue to do until retirement. Then I’m going fishing in Alaska.
Thanks for the information, Joy.
Thank you, Mr. Eckes for your service. God bless you and Semper Fi!!!!!!!
Woodsman
Woodsman–and thank you for your service along with all front line wild land fire fighters. I consider you all heroes like Mr. Eckes. like all the Marines and others who served. His capture and escape a very close call and sadly too many died during that Vietnam thing. Mr. Eckes we met at the Family Diner– a real gentleman to add to his service status.
We did have a martial law lock down at Yarnell. It was totally not needed since we had plenty of Yavapai Sheriff people to take care of the situation. The powers that be forget that we have lots of people here of old school mentality that take care of their own and their neighbors. We are not cookie cutter types that have to depend upon law enforcement for every little whim such as lately I had California neighbors that had to call law enforcement when my three chickens were on the loose without leashes or telling me along with the other 26 other neighbors they gave reports to county officials because something did not fit their idea of how people ought to live. Instead they forget that Joy and I helped those very people right after the fire and she is one to go there to any neighbor and do free clean up or repairs if that neighbor needs it. We have too many elderly here that due to their age are incapable of doing things and many on low income so they often can not afford to be turned into the county for the big fines they receive for petty offenses. I suppose I was a bit upset seeing the Sheriff dog catcher cruising the neighborhood right past our property which is at the extreme West end of Glen Isla. Here the dog catcher is a deputy Sheriff and who ever thought the Sheriff department would be part of the dog catcher world? And Glen Isla having to be patrolled in this extreme rural setting? Good Lord what has this world come to–people that act like Communist Russia–going around turning their neighbors in for any little offense so that people becoming fearful of each other.
So they know since they read this site–I have paid my $90 permit for my cattle fence being constructed around our property and I can bet they never paid theirs–but I won’t waste my time turning them in if they did not. I have better things to do than worry about other people’s petty offenses.
If anything ought to be investigated it is the squandering of $670,000 dollars of tax payer money on a parking lot to no where and why that money instead is not going to the wild land fire fighting community. Where are the good FBI agents that should be looking into the graft we see as well as the causes of the deaths of the 19?
There will be a book signing in May for Donut and Phoenix NY Times editor Fernanda Santos. This will be in the Yarnell Library so many of you will want to meet Donut and Fernanda. She is quite a hiker and we were happy to make the run with her. She has interviewed many of the people involved and ought to have a good book on the situation. There is much more to be revealed, maybe she will have enough for a follow up book.
Charlie said: to call law enforcement when my three chickens were on the loose without leashes
MY REPLY: misinformation you posted. It was County not law enforcement Sonny on your chickens which was legal and that was a bum complaint on you. You are combining the Animal Control with County visit. Animal Control comes when someone complains Sonny and you already know who complained on someone on Candy Cane Lane. Now, you are allowed 8 poultry per acre. That is the law. You are allowed to have them free range- they just encourage you to keep them in on your property and they would be but there was the delay in getting you the permits to finish your cattle fence. It is always better in today’s world to just follow the order…and it parallels to the YHF and these men’s decisions to remain where they were versus keep walking to the less terrain/boulder areas versus where they were but I really think misinformation played as well with the men and how they got to that point. Man with grey rimmed glasses who had a dispatcher speak for him may help bring clarity and maybe one day that person will finally not get the proper sleep at night because I do not know how one does sleep properly with the knowledge the missing elements have…
Charlie said: There will be a book signing in May for Donut and Phoenix NY Times editor Fernanda Santos. This will be in the Yarnell Library so many of you will want to meet Donut and Fernanda.
MY REPLY: another misinformation. Where did you hear Donut was doing this? I know Fernanda Santos is with Arizona Highways Kathy Montgomery at the Yarnell library and that is the plan but never was Donut mentioned— just that his book is due out same time.
I thought I got the info from you –misunderstood you said he has a report coming out the same day but not at the Library. It is a challenge with 17% hearing left–seems I mishear things at times. We will look forward to the report and the book signing.
Woodsman—Human Factors
Military are trained also to Obey orders with out question.
Could that have been a factor in Steeds decision to leave the BLACK?
There is some concern with this military influence overshadowing the rules and causing some Safety breeches.
I have no personal feeling one way or the other. The WWII and Vietnam Vets I worked with never showed that side in fire fighting so the above is new to me.
May be it should be addressed in training?
Bob,
You said: “Military are trained also to Obey orders with out question.”
I believe this is not true. E1/recruits yes, but as soon as you move up in rank you are given more responsibility & ‘flexibility’ to accomplish the mission. (I’m talking after the 1st year or so.) The idea that superiors are never questioned or challenged by subordinates in the military is false.
I’m saying this from the perspective of a dependent of a career officer, attended military school, friends that served, veterans who work or have worked in our agency, and my #1 mentor of all time (RIP, sir) a Vietnam vet who I worked under on wildfires for 10 plus years.
In the service there is a concept known as ‘the standard.’ Veterans have done well in the fire service because the idea of policies and procedures is not new. (besides just being great folks) Deviate from the policy or procedure or not meet the standard and there is a problem. I’m not ready to say Steed’s service was a causal factor like I was believing a couple of months ago. In fact, I think that hypothesis is wrong! (I can hear RTS’ footsteps approaching the screen now.) Yep, RTS, it’s wrong!
Steed felt pressure from 1 or more people to move the crew. Marsh was a ‘my way or the highway’ kind of guy – am I correct? Didn’t he run off a DIVS (Esquibel?) after arguing about division breaks? The pressure Steed felt by reporting to his direct boss and career advancement possibilities has way more to do than the assumption that military veterans are just sheep that will do anything you order them to.
Steed knew the rules. He was MORE suited for the job because of his military experience – discipline, the standard, rules, policies, and procedures. He was trained to win by the best military in the world. He served our country and was provided with the best equipment and leadership we could muster. He then joined the wildfire profession AND WE FAILED HIM.
The wildfire community failed him and others at Yarnell Hill. We don’t train our forces to win. Deployment zones, safety zones, fire shelter….LCES is all wrong. At least the E and the S are wrong. It’s not acceptable to deploy a fire shelter. It’s not a ‘badge of honor.’ It’s an indication of extreme organizational failure and by issue en mass of these devices, the wildfire leadership is complicit in the failure. We have designed concepts and training that are wrong!
Woodsman
I’ll gladly take a beatdown from anyone who says I’m wrong about veterans & obeying orders. I’ll also thank you for your service. All you have to do when straightening me out is provide your branch, mos, rating, nec, or afsc.
If you don’t know what this is then you’re most likely not qualified to opine on this matter.
Woodsman
All good points. I was referring to some Things that are being referred to lately as human factors as I said I never ran into that in my carrier.
The human factors people like to screw with things in their analogy’s of what people think.
Was never in the Military so you can beat on me all you want.
Started as a FF at 17 and never quit. Missed the draft and never volunteered for service.
That would have been Vietnam—
I was also classified 111A at 19 Married W/1 Child.
Reply to Woodsman post on March 12, 2016 at 11:33 am
>> Woodsman said…
>>
>> The idea that superiors are never questioned or challenged
>> by subordinates in the military is false.
That’s correct… but keyword here is ‘idea’.
When you are conducting yourself as PSUEDO-MILITARY organization… then it isn’t the ‘reality’ you play to… it’s the ‘idea’ of what you ‘think’ the ‘reality’ is.
So more often than not… PSUEDO-MILITARY organizations are most likely to play the “an order is an order… do what I tell you” game than the actual military itself.
Here’s a poem written by the father of a USFS Hotshot and published by the Prescott eNews organization… so here is what even HE thinks his OWN SON is SUPPOSED to be doing ‘out there’…
“Hotshots Follow Orders”…
http://www.prescottenews.com/index.php/item/21947-granite-mountain-hotshots-the-men-of-yarnell-hill
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Hotshots follow orders, the twenty of this crew,
They cut the trees, they dug the line, as they were told to do.
They left behind their families, lovers, friends, and wives,
They paid a price so costly, they paid it with their lives.
————————————————————
By Scott K. Helfinstine of Prescott, AZ,
father of a Hotshot serving with the USFS
————————————————————
On September 29, 2013 at 6:52 pm, Tex Gilligan posted the following comment over at Wildfire Today…
————————————————
Today I visited the memorial put up near the Ranch Club Restaurant.
I took time at the memorial to read what it takes to be a hot shot.
They started out with “A Hot Shot must strictly obey orders.”
For instance, in this case, although it had to be apparant to some of those men that they were absolutely headed to a very higly dangerous area, they were obliged to do that.
Most were of a younger age, so I could see that they might blindly follow orders.
I look back when I was a miner at the Ward Mine back in the 70’s I had quit that mine after watching 12×12 timbers mushroom on their tops. The mine foreman took us in past these and said no worry, more would be put in and it was a safe situation. Well 6 other miners agreed, but I instead picked up my check. A week or so later I heard the mine caved at that point. Six men and old Bill were caught in there and barely found a way back out through an air shaft and crawling 600 yards.
Just to say, I likely would not make a good Hot Shot.
——————————————————————
NOTE: That ‘Sandwich Board’ that has the “What it takes to be a Hotshot” rules on it, with the number one ‘rule’ being “A Hot Shot must strictly obey orders” was eventually moved from where it started out near the Ranch House Restaurant… and it is now a part of the permanent ‘Yarnell’ memorial to Granite Mountain there were Shrine Road intersects with Highway 89.
But it is, in fact, still there, and STILL says the number one thing a Hotshot must do is “Strictly Obey Orders”.
This is even what the PUBLIC is being expected to believe even when visiting an actual memorial to those men who died those horrible deaths on June 30, 2013.
On April 17, 2015 at 11:46 am, in Chapter 13 of this ongoing
discussion… Sonny (Tex) Gilligan also said…
——————————————————–
We witnessed a wildfire that no amount of ground pounders could have stopped, yet neither Donut nor those men seemed to sense the danger they were in. Maybe the site was too much like the fireworks you see in big cities–mesmerizing. Add the heat of the day and stress of exhaustion and Dr. Ted Putnam’s expressions of the psychological factors in firefighting come to light. It certainly stands to reason that had those men been of sober thinking that day, no amount of cajoling or strict adherence to the wild fire sign that says to be a hot shot you must “strictly obey orders” have caused them to go down there.
Strictly Obey Orders meant to disobey all safety rules in this case and caused their deaths. Who gave those strict orders remains in question at this time, yet Sonny here believes that Marsh and Steed were lower men on the chain of command.
——————————————————–
“Robert the Second” ( RTS ) had this to say in a comment below the article that appeared at InvestigativeMEDIA about the autopsy reports…
http://www.investigativemedia.com/after-years-of-delay-the-granite-mountain-hotshot-autopsy-records-are-released-to-the-public/#comment-319270
>> On December 13, 2015 at 9:26 pm,
>> Robert the Second ( RTS ) said…
>>
>> We ( Hotshots ) are TOLD to follow orders…
>> UNLESS they are illegal, immoral, unethical,
>> or UNSAFE. The order(s) we’re clearly NOT safe
>> and Steed knew the order was NOT safe or sound.
>> Instead of directly telling Marsh that, he used
>> what’s known as ‘Mitigating Speech’ or hinting when
>> he kept telling him “were in the black,” and describing
>> the fire activity and the location of the fire
>> in the McKenzie video clip.
>> Woodsman also said…
>>
>> Steed felt pressure from 1 or more people to move the crew.
Yes… but the reality is that we still have no idea what really went down out there that day. Steed could have been getting ‘pressure’ from BOTH ‘above’ and ‘below’.
In other words… maybe even the GM Squad Bosses ( or crew members ) were ALSO pressuring Jesse to ‘make the move’.
I believe Brendan McDonough and those 3 other Blue Ridge Hotshots who were also listening to the GM ‘intra-crew’ radio frequency heard much more that we are still aware of… but I don’t know if even that would give us the ‘complete’ picture of the ACTUAL decision making process out there.
The GM Squad bosses and/or crew could have even been saying ( to Steed )… “Aw c’mon Jesse… let’s go for it!”… and Steed could have very well said to THEM “Okay… fuck it… you guys wanna go… let’s go.”.
So they did.
They basically “Esse Quam Videried” themselves right into their graves.
>> Woodsman also said…
>>
>> Marsh was a ‘my way or the highway’ kind of guy – am I correct?
Yes. Very much so. Just read his personnel file.
>> Woodsman also said…
>>
>> Didn’t he run off a DIVS (Esquibel?) after arguing
>> about division breaks?
Yes… but minor correction. It wasn’t Esquibel. Esquibel was just a TLFD(t) under SPGS1 Gary Cordes and the one who Cordes would later tell to send some engines to the Boulder Springs Ranch to make sure GM got “out of there safely”… because Gary Cordes KNEW that is where they were going.
It was “Division Z” Rance Marquez who got into that ‘argument’ with Eric Marsh about where the break between “Division A” and “Division Z” should be.
Apparently… Eric Marsh got so “in his face” about it that he felt compelled to call OPS1 Todd Abel provately, using his cellphone, and tell OPS1 all about it BEFORE Marquez got a chance to arrive back north in Peeples Valley and tell his side of the story.
There is ‘evidence’ that Eric Marsh was pretty much ‘arguing’ with everyone he came into contact with that fatal day alone… from the argument with Rory Collins about where to drop retardant, to the ‘argument’ with Marquez about where a simple DIVS boundary should be… and on to the eventual (fatal) ‘argument’ with Steed about moving GM out of the black.
Again… just read his personnel file and the things his managers were telling him he always needed to work on, personally and socially.
Nothing pissed Eric Marsh off more than when things weren’t going the way HE wanted them to.
>> Woodsman also said…
>>
>> The pressure Steed felt by reporting to his direct boss
>> and career advancement possibilities has way more to
>> do than the assumption that military veterans are just
>> sheep that will do anything you order them to.
Agree.
It is not correct to just sit back and say&#