Chapter I, Chapter II, Chapter II supplement, Chapter III, Chapter IV, Chapter V, Chapter VI, Chapter VII, Chapter VIII , Chapter IX, Chapter X, Chapter XI, Chapter XII , Chapter XIII, Chapter XIV, Chapter XV, Chapter XVI, Chapter XVII, Chapter XVIII and Chapter XIX.
© Copyright 2016 John Dougherty, All rights Reserved. Written For: Investigative MEDIA
The next ‘Chapter’ XXI ( 21 ) of this ongoing discussion has been created.
Here is a direct jumplink to that ‘new’ Chapter…
http://www.investigativemedia.com/please-begin-yarnell-hill-chapter-xxi-here/
I started out on this thread saying what I really think about the 10 and the 18 but I stopped doing that a long time ago because of two reasons;
1. I didn’t want to responsible even in the smallest way of any young firefighters dying in the future because they think they don’t have to follow the 10 and the 18 because I said they are bullshit. They need to follow the spirit of the 10 and the 18, not the letter of the 10 and the 18. Does anyone not understand what they means. If you don’t say so, and I will explain it further?
2. I acquiesced to Bob Powers because I used to respect him and I deferred to him because that is how I was brought up in the USFS. Always to defer to those who have more experience. Even many years after I was an equal in terms of pay grade and status to my first hotshot crew boss, Amos Coochyama (and we were friends even though he wore grooves in my head by humping it when I was an FNG) I always deferred to him in private, professional and social settings because he was still my hotshot crew boss. That was proper USFS etiquette. But now since I don’t have any respect for Bob anymore and I don’t even want to know whatever Fred is still concealing with his head games…I can tell you how I really feel.
The 10 and the 18 are ridiculous and nothing but bullshit. They are nothing more than a collection of common sense truisms that any experienced wildland firefighter or person (like Sonny and that cowboy who told Marsh and Steed not to get trapped in the Manzanita) with even basic survival skills follow automatically.
Does anybody really need a rule to tell them not to work in canyons, chutes, or anyplace else ABOVE a fire in the daytime when everybody knows heat rises and fire burns faster uphill during the day and if you force water into a narrow stream from a wide stream it will go much faster? And if the air feels dry, there is wind on you face, the pine needles snap in your fingers instead of bend, the smoke column is dark grey or black instead of light grey or white and it is laying over horizontally instead of rising vertically and especially if the smoke column is black and laying over horizontally towards you, or a thunder cell is approaching that you can see for miles away it is about to get windy and the fire is going to change directions and who doesn’t know the snow always stays much longer on a north facing aspect and goes away first on a southerly facing slope and cold air falls and fires creep downhill at night unless you are in California and the Santa Ana’s are blowing and frost killed Gamble Oak that is 12 feet tall is even more dangerous than thick Manzanita but they are both dangerous just as any think overgrown chaparral is and that you should you should make your squad boss knows where you are and what you are doing and the squad bosses should tell the crew boss and the crew boss should tell the sector boss and the sector boss should tell the division boss and the division boss should tell the line boss and the line boss should tell the fire boss and the fire boss should keep the operations and plans chiefs up to speed and crew bosses should communicate with each other who are working in the same sector and there should be a fire plan everybody should have a copy of the fire plan and they should read it and be where they are supposed to be, doing what they are supposed to be doing. Who the fuck needs a list of bullshit rules to tell them common sense stuff. We never did. We fought fire the old fashioned way, with some common sense.
We knew the 10 and the 18 only served ONE purpose and that was cover-their (not your)-ass (the overhead, the agency, the bosses) so they could blame the firefighter if something went wrong. That is all the 10 and the 18 have ever been and that is all they will ever be…bullshit.
It was the same thing in law enforcement. There were General Orders that you had to follow to the letter but nobody enforced them because you couldn’t do your job if you followed the General Orders all of the time to the letter. And supervisors want results…everywhere, so that bullshit is never used unless something goes wrong somewhere and then management pulls them out and goes down the list and checks off the ones the employee violated so they can say it is all the employees fault…not ours, see it says right here they shouldn’t have been doing what they were doing in the first place. The 10 and the 18 are a joke, they always have been and they always will be nothing more than a tool for management to use to screw the employee if something goes wrong.
More to come after I make my oatmeal and have my morning shower. So…stay tuned if you really want to know about the 10 and the 18 and SAFETY in the Forest Circus.
Start the new chapter with 10&18
http://www.investigativemedia.com/please-begin-yarnell-hill-chapter-xxi-here/
GARY IS FULL OF SHIT
SO SAYS THOUSANDS OF WILD LAND FIRE FIGHTERS PAST AND PRESENT.
THE MILLIONS OF HOURS WORKED ON FIRES SINCE 1957 THE SAFETY RECORD SPEAKS FOR ITS SELF.
IT IS A WONDER GARY DID NOT KILL MORE FIRE FIGHTERS THAN HE DID.
END OF STORY.
Ouch…that was a low blow.
Hey…I only killed three of them and almost killed a fourth but he did survive…barely.
I already told everyone on this thread, the Happy Jack Hotshots didn’t give a fuck what about happened to the Mormon Lake Hotshots. We weren’t conditioned or authorized to care…and we didn’t. All in a days work.
And as you know, I personally set the fire that killed them and I never lost a night’s sleep over it…slept like a baby and still do.
Your buddy’s buddies killed 19 of them. I wonder how they are sleeping?
I thought you said goodbye already. I hate long good bye’s so will you just leave already. On second thought, stick around…I am getting ready to expose you and your tribe for what you…hypocrites.
I thought you said goodbye already. I hate long good bye’s so will you just leave already. On second thought, stick around…I am getting ready to expose you and your tribe for what you ARE…hypocrites.
Ahhhh…that was some good oatmeal…just like mother used to make…mushy. On second thought, I have to go see a man about some horses today, which is western U.S. slang for I need to take care of some business today, so it will take me awhile to get back to my another MOAP (mother all all posts).
And just in case anybody out there in cyber space is wondering why I am not working on my much anticipated and highly acclaimed book, “Rise of the Hybrid Firefighers” that I MAY now finish because I am plenty pissed off at them, and you know who you are, I am working on it.
This next post will be like a lot of my other MOAPS, it will form the basis of a chapter in my book. So if you have read all of my posts since the thread started you won’t need to buy my book IF it ever comes out because you will already know everything (more or less) that I think about this situation. And in this case, you will know what I think about the 10 and the 18…what are they? THEY ARE BULLSHIT AND CTA FOR MANAGEMENT!
I’ll be back (Terminator).
Gary,
On the surface, what you have said is horrifying! Then, after separating myself from years of mind conditioning and taking another look at your words (not easy to do!), when I really think hard about what you just said…YES! It takes me back to a time when my first regional forester told me in his office one day: “I will stand by you no matter what…unless you break the rules then you are on your own.”
Now, that was the general idea of what he told me but you get the point. I remember nodding my head in agreement. If you really think hard about his advice, you will understand how great a leader that man was. He was the best supervisor I ever had. He had a military background and was a veteran of the conflict in Vietnam. I loved him and will always love him for the man he was and his leadership skill. The man would not sleep if any of his personnel were out on a fire all night. He was a rare breed indeed. Incidentally, the respect he had from all of us was huge and he got a hell of a lot of work out of us because of that fact.
After reading you post, it made me realize just how much he loved his people. I always knew it was a great deal, but now I know it was more than I imagined because he literally told me what the rules were about. He was protecting me to the best of his ability by telling me the truth!
Thank you for your posts. Those who can get past their knee-jerk reaction to you words are in for a deeper understanding of wildfire rules that will benefit them greatly and increase their safety and the safety of those they are responsible for….if they are willing to really delve into the subject and think for themselves.
Woodsman
I actually think as rough and tough as his message is…I had to research it myself so I asked this to the higher ups via emails and Don so far is the only reply..
Big discussion
What do the 10&18 and lces mean to you and your life
Is it a great contributing safety tool
Or is it a bullshit to help higher ups hide behind it as a cya…cover your own ass
Thanks
Joy
But Gary brings a good point should trainers be explaining this that the 10&18 are the rules and if you don’t follow them than it gives the higher ups a chance to hide behind them?
Excellent topic indeed. I always love hearing on the 10&18 education
One reply so far..see-
Hello Joy.
>
> To say the 10 and 18 are BS is to discount how they came to be. When I started in the early 80’s in Hot Shot training, there were the 10 and 13. What does that mean? It means as an industry we made note of another 5 ways to injure or kill wildland firefighters. To say they are BS would also imply that if you ignored all of them and did the opposite, things would go better. I think we can agree that would not be the case, even to the most uneducated reader.
>
> Can a wildland FF, squad boss, captain, sup, etc., ALWAYS follow the 10 and 18, every second, and take into consideration the Common Denominators? No it doesn’t. Many times in a career and fire fight, educated and experienced practitioners will have to weigh the risks of their tactics and strategies, and perhaps take an action that would, for a very short time, seem like it wasn’t exactly complying with all the 10, or seem to ignore one or more of the 18, but as professionals, we are paid to perform risk/benefit analyses in order to do our jobs. In my opinion, if everyone followed the 10 and 18, to the letter, all the time, we would have a really hard time fighting fires. Remember, the 18 are supposed to be “heads up” items. Pay attention- if this is happening things could go badly. Address them and remedy them. Why? Because they have been responsible for bad outcomes in the last. The 10 on the other hand are what we are supposed to do, all the time, every time. While you may not have obtained a forecast for a little while, you certainly should now if something is changing (hotter and drier, spots, not in communication with someone that can glue you that info- sound like the 18?). If fire behavior changes, could there be a brief time that there wasn’t complete control? Could the end of an IA shift of 18 hours cause a problem with “think clearly” or “stay alert”? Certainly. But as a rule, the 10 ARE rules , not suggestions, for the safety of our brothers and sisters on the line. And no, they are not some kind of safety net for supervisors. Supervisors should be working to make sure they are addressed and adhered to for the betterment of the profession and the fight. They are to keep firefighters safe- in a very unsafe environment.
>
> My opinions only.
>
> Don
Joy…as I have said you are a real gem. But you are also ignorant and ignorant people should not try to phrase questions to others they don’t understand themselves because if you put garbage in…you are likely to get garbage out.
And that is just my opinion, just like it is my opinion the 10 and the 18 are bullshit in that, “They need to follow the spirit of the 10 and the 18, not the letter of the 10 and the 18. Does anyone not understand what they means. If you don’t say so, and I will explain it further?”
So actually, IF you understand what I am saying, which you obviously don’t, you will see that Don and I are much closer than we are further apart in our positions. I said I would explain later in detail…wait until I do that before you start asking for second opinions or you will look as stupid as Bob Powers. And you don’t want that do you?
I may be ingnorant—we all are at times— if the alleged topics on RTS are facts in regards to staff ride than you were ignorant in your choice vs maybe someone like Dr. Ted Putnam…so ignorance is not alone…Now if Brian Frisby ever reads this site I would like to pick your brain with just ONE question…Donut is bypassing truth and on path of heroism when we know you and Eric Tarr are my heroes in this YHF moment but watching you “live and in action” that day will you bypass truth too in that you could hold the knowledge who was going to be the lookout for that day that turned into last minute Donut- who was Marsh’s “go-to” lookout guy… Musser in my humble opinion needs to sit in a room with me and answer some real questions.
Bob Powers- I may be just a housewife and desert walker but from my view it is impossible as dictated written in manner they are to follow all the rules all the time for every single person on a crew from the boss to the bottom when you factor in human elements and so far only Don replied out of all higher up folks but what NWCG did was good rules to follow going in but my goal today was not ask the crew but ask the management level which of all the ten that we are to be FIRM and they are wonderful and to FOLLOW- which one out of the ten if you could not follow it would you come off that fire- I GET it is rules not to be bent or broken but it is impossible for an entire crew all of the time to do so I personally like to thank Paul for his time here on Earth—
http://www.wildlandfire.com/docs/gleason/hotshot.htm
because four L C E S is much easier for me to remember than ten and eighteen even if I had it in my hard hat —let’s take smokejumpers we met over time that said they kept it in their hats and hard hats but during the stress— pressures and yes even higher up pressures— the mind slips even if you just looked at your hat and said I freaking broke all of them I should walk out and then radio comes on- re-engage and there ya go walking into danger—you are remembering all the 10&18s you are in midst of breaking but REMEMBER this “BEHAVIORS” of self, the fire, the weather, and others on the fire and off the fire CAN interfere with the end decision-bad outcome. How many firefighters have put the years in but don’t have the experience because there was no hands on for that season for them than they just have the season but not the hand on experiences- so that plays in—also wasn’t Robert Caldwell the usual lookout on other fires— anyone know that or was it Rose? How do I get the FOIA answer on that because I am interested on that topic. OH and RTS- in the history of his comments- thank you and Bob Powers too- I won’t engage in the discrediting of these men because RTS currently gives talks and he does an excellent job with his teachings. You always gave me the feeling you felt this crew had a military layer to them yet I do believe incident management were an interference in the end results and you RTS stand strong these men could of walked away from this fire but hmmm do you remember 6-30-13 the same as me? GMHS were tired, hot, worked a full 2 week shift- 16 hours- and remember that dry erase board that very day of how they felt- they began the day with low capability of stress; SPENT…”overwhelming” elements to ensure the proper decision making abilities were up to par-
Let’s get REAL on topic of 10&18; the current trainers should be saying what Woodsman said today- that was spot on Woodsman…spot on…if these trainers teach “follow all the rules- I got your back”—you break any….
I mean that was eye-awakening as you read and re-read Woodsman comment.
I also want to state these men should of not been on that fire that day- end of story.
Thanks woodsman for that reminder of my first FMO he was like that he was always checking on us and he trained us well he was 65 when he retired 35 years fire he was on the Los Padres in the 40’s when many others were in WWII.
I owe my carrier to him and his training he was a hell of a FF and ran our District
with a lot of respect from all of us. Burt Hutchison That is how it was in the 60’s all of those old FF had to make it 35 years to retire and there were a lot of them around.
Most Forests in California did not have a assistant FMO until you hit Southern California. The District I was on the Cannel Meadow Sequoia hat 1 Engine, 3 FPT’s an 1 horse patrol. and a Helicopter around 175,000 Ac.
In 67 I went to the Arroyo Seco RD Angeles only 90.000 Ac. there were 6 Engines,
a water tender, 6 FPT’s, a Helitack crew, 2 ADFMO’s and 2 Hot Shot crews.
There were at that time 5 Hot Shot crews on the Forest. That was Southern Calif.
Bob.,
My first regional forester was telling me more than the words he said, he was telling me: “I will back you no matter what…unless you break the rules then YOU’RE ON YOUR OWN.” He was actually stating the truth to me instead of keeping it the big dark secret that it is. That’s how much he loved his men.
He was telling me how the rules work. As a manager he will cover me, unless I break the rules, then he is not responsible and he will distance himself from me. See how that works? Thus the checklist breakdown of the 10 & 18 after a fire fatality and 100% release of any and all responsibility of overhead or fire managers in the fatalities. It has been subconsciously drilled into our heads, that’s why many, including you focus solely on the 10 & 18 deficiencies, and ignore the possibility of anyone else on the fire having any responsibility whatsoever. The next step is putting it up in a nice neat package (SAIR) and placing a bow on it (staff ride), and the whole truth is buried forever. That’s the deep dark secret of the 10 & 18. Although, in order to stay out of the courtroom, the 10 & 18 analysis is now removed from the process and left up to others to ‘infer.’ Know what I mean, Bob? Hint hint nudge nudge…
Case in point:
10. Fight fire aggressively after having provided for safety first. (which incidentally was number 1 not number 10 when I started)
Be aggressive in fighting fire but if something happens, you weren’t being safe…………..so you’re on your own……….CYA. I even told fred this line of thinking is a fire manager’s wet dream. It is.
To ignore the system is to enable its continuation for ever and ever.
Woodsman
Yes I hear you.
And it should not be that way. The rules should go up and down the Ladder
You should not be a manager on a fire and not use them as well. If that is happening then some one needs to clean house. The safety starts at the IC
And works down from there The 10 and 18 were always part of a shift plan.
From what I saw last year they were in every shift plan in R5,R4, and R6.
IC, OPS and the Safety Officer are the primary people that ensure the Safety is being implemented.
While I have been focused on the Crew it is also the Fire overheads responsibility, We never left our safety or crew safety up to any one
but us. And I still lay that in the lap of Marsh and Steed they had the final say. Evaluating Risk verses accomplishment is Killing FF where did that start coming from? It is totally the wrong Idea on wild land fires
Go back to one foot in the black and bring the black with you assign a lookout as necessary and you cover all the 10 and 18. Go to work and keep informed it is that simple.
Yes, you are right. It is a complex issue and with nuances that are not easily explained by me anyway and may be hard to grasp by even those who have an open mind which is why I didn’t want to start on it this morning. I want to take some time with this and get it right.
For those wildland firefighters (or those who love them) who are mush headed, stubborn as a mule, learn and teach by rote only, or are robotic in their learned behavior (and unfortunately Bob fits into all of these categories, but he was only on the fire line for a couple of seasons and apparently everything turned out OK…thank God because the man is stupid), those individuals will probably never even be able to grasp what I am saying, which is probably OK (it has to be) because most wildland firefighters are smart and can both learn and apply new concepts and ways of thinking.
So…the onus is on me to explain it right, so I am going to take some time with it.
You Have no Idea what I fit into Gary.
But I can tell you out right I Served as a Crew Boss a Sector Boss a Division Boss a OPS2 and IC2 On the line and I never lost a person to a burn over or accident in 33 years not even a serious injury like say a broken leg.
You on the other hand can not claim that and even refuse to accept responsibility for Killing 4 Fire fighters because they were not on your crew.
I think whether you like it or not I have a lot more experience and a high Safety record that even got me assigned to a Regional Fire Safety Team.
That Team actually created a Safety record of 15 years without a Fatality Fire in Region 5. I am proud of that as well and it included a hard directive to follow the 10 and 13. It worked so do not tell me you don’t believe in them when you did not follow Fire Order #7.
Ya I am here as long as you continue to attack me. Then I will continue to tell people what a real hypocrite you are.
Two can play that game.
Excuse me…I only killed 3 firefighters.
I don’t expect you to leave Bob, you don’t have anything else going on in your pathetic life and you haven’t taken up fishin’ in the Snake yet. My offer however, still stands, I will buy you any fishin’ pole you want.
But…in the meantime you are just the gift that keeps on giving. In addition to clearly demonstrating why things in wildland firefighting will never get any better or at least won’t get much better for a long, long time, is because of the ignorant tribal mentality of many wildland firefighters
Only they they think they understand each other and what the problem even is, so only they need to know about it or be involved in the solution.
You demonstrated that brilliantly when you rushed headlong into defending Fred without anything to base your defense on other than he is your girlfriend or bastard son…or both..
And then you compounded your problems because you really are a stupid man by saying more things like, “I bleed green”, the USFS is my heritage and if you insult it, you insult me AND my family, my friends are the MOST important thing in the world to me. You are a trip….man.
Then you went on to show everyone exactly what was wrong with using old, washed up, burned out has beens as front line kick ass fire commanders just because they work cheap.
And FYI…they don’t really work any cheaper but they do cost less because they already have their benefits locked in from their prior service they have already retired from and they can be used PRN which is nursing lingo for “as needed.”
Kind of like using a substitute teacher instead of hiring a full time one when you only need one once in a while. But substitute teachers generally won’t get anybody killed because their brain neurons and synapses aren’t firing like they used to and their cognitive skills are way down. “We ain’t never seen a wildfire do that before!”
But then the real kicker comes when the families of the dead hotshots are disappointed because many of the so called experts who they were promised would be there to answer their questions were not and stupid fuck political hack and newly minted apologist for the Arizona Division of Forestry Jeff Whitney gets to say, “It’s not our fault, they don’t work for us or anyone else so we can’t make them show up and answer anybody’s questions.”
Ya…you stupid fuck, because you hired men to fight you fire to save money who don’t work for you or anybody else so what accountability did you think there was going to be if something went wrong….duhhhhhhhhhh? Last time, this time or next time…I repeat, you stupid fuck.
And now, just like your girlfriend and bastard son before you, you have really stepped in it by trying to tell me something about my own crew. Now I know where you girlfriend and bastard son got that from, along with his mangina, from you. Are all R-5 crews like the Oak Grove Hotshot Alumni? Please say it ain’t so…it can’t be.
You have now gone and showed everyone in writing a great example of why it is important that the agencies develop fictional staff rides based on nothing but bullshit and lies, oh…and more lies. Stupid fucks like you believe them so you don’t learn the real lessons that should be learned from wildland firefighters death.
Where to start. I don’t actually feel like going through two chapter of my book in this format just to prove how stupid you really are but it is tempting.
So…I am just going to give you the Readers Digest version and call it good.
1, The Happy Jack Hotshots knew exactly where the Mormon Lake Hotshots were…we could see them on the fucking slope above us.
2. The Mormon Lake Hotshots knew exactly where the Happy Jack Hotshots were, they could see us on the fucking slope below them.
3. There was a shift plan, both crew bosses had the shift plan. The shift plan called for the Happy Jack Hotshots to ignite the burn out on command which was given. And then I and my fellow sawyer who were the burn out team dropped down into the arroyo and ignited the burn out.
4. The Mormon Lake Hotshots watched the backfire build and advance towards them for about four hours. During this time, our crew bosses maintained constant radio communication on not only their fire net radios but there Coconino Fire Net radios because Mormon Lake is only about 12 miles from Happy Jack. The two crew bosses has worked together for years, they were friends or at least work associates.
5. The Mormon Lake Crew Boss Tony Czak clearly recognized the danger that they were in and he sent the bulk of his crew (16) to the safety zone at the appropriate time as the fire plan called for.
6. And yes, you are understanding me correctly. The BLM fire boss and other overhead PLANNED to have one hotshot crew set a backfire below another hotshot crew on a very steep brush choked slope full of 12 foot high frost killed Gambel Oak that was so explosive it was nicknamed Fuel Type X by the Colorado Division of Forestry who has studied it extensively for years because it is known to run down and kill mature MULE DEER.
7. But guess what? The Mormon Lake Hotshot Crew Boss did the following things.
a. He kept a three man team plus himself in the death zone to finish the job and he ignored or discoutned the danger of a chute on a very steep slope that the fire ran up and cut off their escape.
b. He failed to tell his sector boss what he was doing because he knew the sector boss would tell him to didi mau most ricky tick motherfucker because he wanted to be a hero and make sure their burnout was complete (they had problems getting it going and they arrived late due to a helicopter problem) and he thought maybe it wouldn’t hold the burnout building below them. Which I have never understood because they were up against the vertical rock bluffs of Battlement Mesa of course it would hold and if it didn’t who gave a fuck? It may have slopped over the other side but then it would have been a backing fire and could have easily been picked up. .
c. Mormon Lake was a brand new crew that year and the crew boss had a big chip on his shoulder because he was one arrogant, hard to get along with, full of hubris who was in a really big hurry to prove his hotshot crew was not only better than the other three already on the forest but the best nation wide and he was known to take risks which were accepted on a forest with a hyper hotshot program on steroids who FOUGHT FIRE AGGRESSIVELY but provided for safety first (second in other words).
Now…do you anything else to say you stupid fuck…Bob Powers?
Oh…and one more thing. I slept like a baby that first night and every night since.
And everybody knows exactly what you fit into Bob because you keep showing them exactly where you fit.
The number one rule when you are in a hole is…stop digging.
And of course that statement is hyperbole like I am prone to make to get attention. Hey…it worked for “The Donald” and now he is the first certified nut job to actually land one of the two major party nominations for the leader of the free world. You just can’t argue with success. Who wants to bet he loses the election by sayyyyy….a 50 state margin?
Whoops…got distracted….again. I technically should have said I have never missed a good night’s sleep after the Battlement Creek Fire or what happened there.
BUT….I have missed a lot of night’s sleep since the Yarnell Hill Fire, especially in the first few weeks after it happened.
I knew exactly what had happened on the Battlement Creek Fire almost as soon as it did, or as soon as I had time to think about it. We all did. We knew Tony Czak.
Like I keep saying…I am smart and I went to the best wildland firefighting school in the nation. It was held every year for new hires on hotshot crews on the Mighty Coconino. I know what I am talking about, I have been there and done that and I have the T-Shirt to prove it..
After three years, I still don’t understand what the fuck happened to our crew on the Yarenll Hill Fire. Like I have said before, most of you have no idea what a big deal this was.
Everyone had to re-calibrate all of the Oh-Fuck-Me-Meters to measure that disaster. It wasn’t just one more on a list. It was unthinkable right up until the minute our worst nightmare became our reality.
That one was way off all of the known charts in a class all by itself. And I hope it stays in a class all by itself…forever.
Correction, “You have now gone and showed everyone in writing a great example of why it is important that the agencies DO NOT, i repeat, DO NOT NOT NOT develop fictional staff rides based on nothing but bullshit and lies, oh…and more lies. Stupid fucks like you believe them so you don’t learn the real lessons that should be learned from wildland firefighters death.”
I certainly do not have to justify my self to some one who will not accept the responsibility for Killing FF and could care less. You are the only one here who needs a shrink.
On the staff Ride what did I say over and over it was a fucking show me trip. Nothing more nothing less.
You have fallen into childish behavior and the king of the play yard sand box but you do not even deserve that distinction. You are a real mental problem and should take some time out.
You cant change who I am and what I have accomplished so your jealousy is taken over your sanity.
Move on or bail out..
To Bob, Fred and any one else in the 10-18 camp
At https://www.facebook.com/YarnellFireRealities/ soon I will delving in to GMHS and the 10-18 on each one of them.
I am Not disputing the merits of the 10-18, but at Yarnell I don’t believe it is as simple as that. Futher more if ather spending almost 3 years ofyour lives trying to convice most whom already believe in the Basic Tennors of the 10-18*******************IS THAT ALL YOU GOT********************Nothing? Really?*************
Some people here and elsewhere have been working to understand all that went wrong that day NOT JUST THE 10 and FUCKING 18
19 Men Perish in such a horrific way and all you bring to the table is the 10-18.
My personal solution is a better Fire Shelter then none of whent wrong that day would matter. Other ideas that relate to new and updated technology, Had some of the ideas been EMBRACED, ACCEPTED, IMPLEMENTED just a couple of things could have been game changer.
But if you former, retired or current WFFs that are just all about the 10-18 that GMHS didn’t follow and all the other points that I am sure that are well picked out hang your hat on…….So you can sleep at night, Tell your wife and kids it will be ok, I follow the 10-18, I won’t be Like GMHS, “Honey if I would have been on that Crew we would never have got caught out like that “10-18” Sweetie.
Write a Letter to your loved ones, put it in a sealed envolope, write on it “Do Not Open Till I Die”
on the letter inside Write ” I am sorry that I let you down, fucked up and didn’t follow the 10-18. I got what I deseverd. No need to do a investigation because I was completly at fault. Please tell everyone in the WildLand Community that they shouldn’t change a thing on account of me, Remember sweetheart they are hurting too.
Love,
Idiot on the FireLine with my Dick in my Hand.
PS at least I wont have to eat you terrible cooking
Wait a minute here…what man MARRIES a female who can’t cook? What is this world coming to…
I did.
Yeah but to defend your wife she works crazy hours and I thank her for her long time service doing what she does and I love her for doing what she does…
Good woman.
I have her on a high pedestal so to me if she cannot cook…does she have the desire? I have taken the worst of the worst and gave them the tools to be the best…always there for people like your wife.
I bow down to Mrs. Olson
No…she doesn’t even try, especially now, but I don’t care. As usual. I’m just joking (although she really can’t cook and doesn’t try) because I am such a FUN guy.
to me—cooking is a layer of love…I can take a raw tear jerking onion and make a mouth salivate of the sweetness it can offer after it just made you bawl-
I can take a tough looking steak and by the time it hits your place you can cut into it with a butter knife…
You haven’t lived until you cooked with love… 🙂
Sonny opens a can of sardines and he’s good…he would not put out funds to make the plates I can create- correction he did a few times but it doesn’t impress him fine quality food but to me LIFE IS…fine foods and fine company 🙂
Reply to David Turbyfill post on May 3, 2016 at 11:02 pm
>> David Turbyfill said…
>>
>> Staff Ride, Beta, Still after several weeks of reflection is hard to get
>> my head around ICMT Group, thier thoughts and ideas of how to
>> manage a fire. How they put this dog and pony show on for the
>> families, I am super proud of Juliann Ascraft, she is composed and
>> fairly spot on, full of questions and willing and waiting for plausable answers.
Mr. Turbyfill…
Speaking of ‘Questions’ and ‘Answers’…
I was just wondering… since you were obviously invited to particpate in the settlement-mandated ‘Family members ( Beta ) Staff Ride’… were you ALSO invited to attend the equivalent settlement mandated ‘Question and Answer Day’ which we now know took place way back on February 5, 2016?
The Prescott Daily Courier just ran an article about that crucial settlement-mandated ‘Question and Answer Day’ and that article is here…
The Prescott Daily Courier
Families, officials walk in the final footsteps of the Hotshots
Published: April 29, 2016 – By Cindy Barks
http://dcourier.com/news/2016/apr/29/families-officials-walk-final-footsteps-hotshots/
The article reported on BOTH the ‘Family Staff Ride’ AND the ‘Question and Answer Day’, and reported that many ‘Family members’ were frustrated because despite the additional settlement-mandated requirement that the ‘Family members’ themselves determine WHO should be in attendance in order to ‘answer their questions’… Arizona Forestry was unable ( or unwilling? ) to fulfill that settlement-mandated requirement.
Many of the ‘key players’ in the Yarnell Hill Fire that the ‘Family members’ requested be THERE to answer their questions were NOT there.
From that article…
————————————————————————————-
PRESCOTT – When the State of Arizona and 12 families of fallen Granite Mountain Hotshots settled a wrongful death lawsuit in June 2015, the Arizona State Forestry Division agreed to do nine things.
Now, about 10 months later, a number of those points have been accomplished, and others are in the works, say officials with the State Forestry Division.
First on the list was a promise to conduct an eight-hour question-and-answer session with the Hotshot families to “review data and information and to answer questions posed by the families and their consultants/experts.”
“Some families chose not to come,” Deborah Pfingston said of the question-and-answer session, which took place in Phoenix on Feb. 5, 2016.
For some, concerns centered on the level of participation among the wildland officials who were onsite at the Yarnell Hill fire in 2013.
“I got frustrated with it, because the people who know the answers weren’t going to be there,” Linda Caldwell said, maintaining that the session appeared to be “lip service,” without the participation of key local officials who were in charge the day of the Yarnell Hill Fire.
Pfingston also mentioned the absence of some of the key local wildland officials who decided not to participate. “That was a little frustrating,” she said.
She said, “I think they held their line. I do believe there are some that are still holding information, because of the ramifications.”
Specifically, she said, the officials stood behind the Serious Accident Investigation Report, which she said was “extremely flawed, and full of holes.”
————————————————————————————-
So I was just wondering if YOU, yourself, had the opportunity to particpate in this settlement mandated “Question and Answer Day”.
If you were NOT invited to attend… were you given any explanation ( by Arizona Forestry ) as to WHY you were ‘not invited’?
The settlement agreement put the ‘particpation level’ for BOTH the ‘Question and Answer Day’ AND the ‘Family Staff Ride’ at the equivalent level of being open to ALL ‘Family members’.
So if YOU, yourself, did not even receive an invitation to the ‘Question and Answer Day’ as you were invited to attend the ‘Staff Ride’… I would be curious if Arizona Forestry also gave YOU any ‘explanation’ as to WHY you ( as a Family Member ) were being ‘excluded’ from this crucial ‘Question and Answer Day’.
“So I was just wondering if YOU, yourself, had the opportunity to particpate in this settlement mandated “Question and Answer Day”.
in short, no I was not at the Q&A day.
Longer version; I had been in to a private meeting last summer with Jeff Whittney and also met with Joy H, expressed my desire to attend said Q&A meetting, they said they thought it might ok but needed to run it by the Attorneys, Ultimately the Plaintiff Attorneys didn’t want any one that was not part of their case to participate, according to Joy H.
The staff ride, while it’s creation may have been part of the settlement and a recomidation from the SIAR, that in it self didn’t proclude me or anyone else.
This is bore out by the Attendence of Mrs. Mckee, she was not part of the settlement, her case was outright dissmissed with predjtice. This is the same reason that the McGroder group had to settle as well, but State Fire used this littigation to help settle the citations from ADOSH.
To bad the ICMT didn’t have as good of tactics and strategy as the States Attorneys did, maybe GMHS would still be here, STILL NOT Following the 10-18 though. Lol
Reply to David Turbyfill post on May 4, 2016 at 10:56 pm
>> David Turbyfill said…
>>
>> in short, no I was not at the Q&A day.
Thank you.
And again… I am so very sorry for your loss… and what you have also had to endure as part of its aftermath.
>> David Turbyfill also said…
>>
>> Longer version; I had been in to a private meeting last
>> summer with Jeff Whittney and also met with Joy H,
>> expressed my desire to attend said Q&A meetting, they
>> said they thought it might ok but needed to run it by the
>> Attorneys,
You lost your son in the Yarnell Hill Fire when he was working as a contractor in an Arizona Forestry workplace… and Jeff Whitney and Joy Hernbrode of Arizona Forestry thought it (quote) “might be ok” if you attended an already-planned meeting where family members were to be allowed to ask ‘questions’ about why they lost their sons and husbands?
That’s fucking priceless.
Actually… it’s not. That’s disgusting… and just one more example of how this totally taxpayer funded and supported public service organization ( Arizona Forestry ) thinks it can get away with acting like a private corporation and just ‘hide behind lawyers’ all the time.
>> David Turbyfill also said…
>>
>> Ultimately the Plaintiff Attorneys didn’t want any one that was
>> not part of their case to participate, according to Joy H.
So it was Patrick McGroder himself who decided this, eh?
As mentioned above… as far as these two settlement-required ‘events’ as listed in Appendix A of the agreement were concerned ( the ‘Q/A session’ AND the ‘Staff Ride’ ) there was NOTHING in that document that would distinguish one as being “only for the family members who used a particular lawyer” versus the other being “for all family members who lost a loved one in that Arizona Forestry workplace”.
But now we see that such a ‘distinction’ WAS being made AFTER THE FACT,
by attorney Patrick McGroder.
1. Staff Ride – EVERYONE who LOST a son or husband invited.
2. The chance to ask real questions and expect answers? – Not so much.
That really does just make me want to throw up.
I certainly hope EVERY father and mother and husband and wife who sends their loved one out to work in an Arizona Forestry workplace has been watching ALL of these shenanigans VERY closely… so they can see who their sons and husbands and wives are REALLY ‘working for’… and what will happen to THEM if Arizona Forestry arranges for more of them to burn to death.
Followup…
>> David Turbyfill also said…
>>
>> The staff ride, while it’s creation may have been part of
>> the settlement and a recomidation from the SIAR, that
>> in it self didn’t proclude me or anyone else.
>> This is bore out by the Attendence of Mrs. Mckee, she was
>> not part of the settlement, her case was outright
>> dissmissed with predjtice.
Marcia McKee’s ‘wrongful death’ lawsuit filed on behalf of her son, Grant McKee, is still on APPEAL… and that case has NOT ‘resolved’ yet.
It very well *might* still go forward.
It all comes down to whether the Arizona appeals court feels like some podunk lower court Judge had the right to decide the whole ‘sovereign immunity’ issue for the entire State of Arizona… one of the states in the Union that still does NOT actually have ANY ‘sovereign immunity’ rights for State employees codified into its own constitution.
Even if the regular ‘appeals’ court in Arizona keeps the original ‘dismissal’ in place based on that lowly lower court Judge’s ‘opinion’… the actual ‘sovereign immunity’ issue is BIG enough, and IMPORTANT enough ( legally speaking ) to allow Mrs. McKee to then request a ruling from the Arizona Supreme Court itself.
Even Arizona State Forester Jeff Whitney just said ( in PUBLIC ) that Mrs. McKee’s lawsuit is ‘still on appeal’… and has NOT been resolved yet.
From that same Prescott Daily Courier article linked to up above…
http://dcourier.com/news/2016/apr/29/families-officials-walk-final-footsteps-hotshots/
—————————————————————
Arizona State Forester Jeff Whitney pointed out that the question and-answer session was intended to be conducted “after all litigation is concluded, including appeals.”
While noting this past week that property-loss lawsuits and one wrongful death appeal are still pending, he said the Forestry Division determined, “It’s too important not to do this now.
—————————————————————
What Whitney FAILED to say was that he was PRESSURED to “do it now” by ( guess who? )… Patrick McGroder… because of the pressure HE was getting from HIS ‘clients’.
I AGREE I WORKED FOR STATE FORESTRY FOR 5 YRS AND NOTHING BUT HEADS TURNED THE OTHER WAY, NO ONE SEEMS TO KNOW OR HEAR THINGS AND JUST SO MUCH MORE BS ITS CRAZY. I WAS FORCED TO RESIGN FROM STATE FORESTRY AS AN IADP AT ADC AND LITERLY MEAN FORCED OR SHALL I SAY THREATEND TO SHORTLY AFTER YHF BY PETE MASIEL. IF I KNEW THEN WHAT I DO NOW BUT I CANT THINK LIKE THAT IN THE LONG RUN IT ENDED UP A GOOD THING BUT HAS DESTROYED THINGS FOR ME AS WELL.
Did Jeff and Joy choose that…I don’t buy that reasoning when you lost a son…no way…this has to stop.. I am so sorry you were shown that treatment. You must admit though from day one this was not your first missed opportunity… You have not been treated proper from the get go… Idiots they are…and that means people who use to know David long ago who in the start did not see the human factor that this is his son…the whole ex stuff bothered me on this fire…and as the desert walker I saw segregation over bs topic ex husband and wives…that never settled right by me and a reason I stay in it…Dave I have a cd coming of the question and answers and will be posted here so you will know all that they give us…and people that were there can confirm that’s it or its been redacted or edited
Let me try this again
Bob Powers Writes
****Well Dave seems to know a lot of nothing. “*****
Bob I might just know more than you think I know.
Bob goes on “First I have read to important E-Mails of thanks from Mrs. McKee and her very close friend Praising and Thanking RTS. Who was with Dave and two other Families on the Walk which Mrs. McKee asked RTS to Finish and meet her at the Deployment site”*****
I will stand corrected, if Mrs. McKee is happy then I am Happy, this is not what was nessicarily communicated to myself.
*****Bob also States; “Also Dave would rather Put People in Fire Shelters than continue to train in the 10 and 18. I do not expect him or his Wife to understand them as he was never a Wild Land Fire Fighter.****
You’re Right, never worked as a WFF for team green. But growing up where I did and Wanting to be one from a very early age, then to see firsthand how Team Green “Really Worked” “NOT” didn’t work out for us. Put my efforts in another direction including being a member of Groom Creek Fire, where we trained for all types of response, WUI, Structure, Medical, and we did more than jack off at a fire, since “WE” wanted to go home at night. I want to make it clear I am NOT in favor of abandoning the 10-18, just not as confident as you and some others that GMHS broke all of them, but I will get to that at another time.
****Bob Powers*** “No one is discussing the fact that in 2000 degrees how long will your Oxygen last under that Shelter? Maybe you can build a Shelter that will withstand 2000 Degrees but what will happen to the oxygen? “********
Bob remember this statement “Well Dave seems to know a lot of nothing.” One thing is for sure you seem to only know how to read the back of the Pocket Guide, and I know that it’s not covered in the 10-18 but the first thing they teach you in Fire Seince Classes is the Fire Triangle; HEAT-FUEL-OXYGEN. My idea for better shelters doesn’t end at the shelter but needs a Rescue Respirator of 10-20 minute potential, not a pressurized cylinder, although MTDC has/is looking at the pressurized version.
Thank you Dave
That clears up some of my confusion and that is what is hard to get a hold of here.
My concerns as always have been the continued adding of weight to the FF pack.
Along with If you make a shelter to with stand any thing will the fire fighters rely more on it than the proven safety rules. Training to deploy rather than training to be safe?
A better Shelter has always been a request by Wild Land Fire Fighters.
In fact in 1973 in California I was on the Safety First Team and we requested to R5 that a better shelter needed to be built. That never happened and here we are today still requesting.
In the Fire triangle HEAT is critical when you need a Shelter. There are all kinds of fuel.
If you deploy in a timber fire in a small area (you can not always pick the perfect location.
With a 2000 degree Shelter you are still in a heavy fuel that could keep you in the shelter for 30 min. or longer. A 10 – 20 min. oxygen cylinder may not be enough. Yes I have read the instructions on the Shelter. The crazy part put your face into the ground to get as much Oxygen as you can. The hotter the fire the more OXYGEN it consumes the Shelter is not going to supply the OXYGEN you need for a extended period. A shelter built to with stand 650 degrees is as I have said BS.
I am sorry that some here Think the Forest Service dose not care about Safety for Fire Fighters from my perspective that is not true and has never been true. The Forest Service has been the leader in Safety and the development of Safety equipment. While I guess I am a Company man I grew up in the Forest service and made it a carrier. at the young age of 4 My dad started in the FS he was killed when I was 9. My mother actually remarried back in to the FS a year latter. I grew up in the Mountains on Ranger stations. Spent 1 year at 17 working as a FF for the CAL STATE FIRE then went to work for the FS. So you can fault me if you want but it is my Heritage.
The SAIT did a great disservice to the Families and FF by the way they left so many questions unanswered and did not assign responsibility from the top down.
There were just so many things wrong with this fire from top to bottom and the crew got caught in the multitude of bad decisions. That is when their survival mode should have kicked in. They were there they were safe in the BLACK there was no reason to take the huge risk and move down thru unburned fuel for any reason they were up on that mountain the only ones that had to challenge the fire to move out. That is and will always be the defining moment when following the rules and checking the watchouts was absolutely critical. There was no reason or threat by any source to leave the Black and put the crew at risk traveling in front of a moving Fire Front thru unburned fuel. My whole training and that of many I know says Stay right there the fire activity was dictating that the Weather Forecast was Dictating that. 2 of the 10 even if you remove every thing else that was enough to not move. The beginning of the domino effect if you ignore those first signs the very basics of fire projections. The fuels, Temp. Hum, winds the time of day your location to the fire.
Thanks for your response Dave I would not have come back but to answer you.
I found peace with what happened to my Dad I hope you do to. Keep pushing for answers.
Bob Powers
Bob Powers Writes
>>Well Dave seems to know a lot of nothing. <>First I have read to important E-Mails of thanks from Mrs. McKee and her very close friend Praising and Thanking RTS. Who was with Dave and two other Families on the Walk which Mrs. McKee asked RTS to Finish and meet her at the Deployment site.<>> Bob also States; >>>Also Dave would rather Put People in Fire Shelters than continue to train in the 10 and 18. I do not expect him or his Wife to understand them as he was never a Wild Land Fire Fighter.<<>> Bob Powers>>>>>No one is discussing the fact that in 2000 degrees how long will your Oxygen last under that Shelter? Maybe you can build a Shelter that will withstand 2000 Degrees but what will happen to the oxygen? <<<<<<<<<<<<<
Bob remember this statement “Well Dave seems to know a lot of nothing.” One thing is for sure you seem to only know how to read the back of the Pocket Guide, and I know that it’s not covered in the 10-18 but the first thing they teach you in Fire Science Classes is the Fire Triangle; HEAT-FUEL-OXYGEN. My idea for better shelters doesn’t end at the shelter but needs a Rescue Respirator of 10-20 minute potential, not a pressurized cylinder, although MTDC has/is looking at the pressurized version.
Zack Ashoor was working on that Dave and maybe someone is still doing that at the Arizona Respiratory Board-
Joy, do not know anyone named Zack Ashoor, where and whom does he work for? He is working on Fire Shelters?
The Fire Shelter work I had been doing has been with the folks at MTDC in Missoula Mt.
No Zack Ashoor knew some of the men…he had such a wonderful energy and he worked for the Arizona State respiratory board trying to create emergency lightweight portable respiratory oxygen system that could withstand extreme heat exposure and Sonny hiked him during a time I was off doing my own thing but I remembered the kid calling when on a date and he was a neat kid…he went hiking during the thickness laid retardant drop and he died.
This Is Zack
https://www.giveforward.com/fundraiser/rh64
**
** BRENDAN MCDONOUGH SAYS THE YARNELL INVESTIGATION
** NEEDS TO BE ‘REOPENED’… THERE IS ‘MORE TO KNOW’…
First off… a big THANK YOU to Joy Collura for that ’roundup’ of links below to all the ‘appearances’ that Brendan McDonough is making right now ( and in the last 48 hours or so ) on his ‘book promotion tour’.
He’s been basically pushing this thing as hard as he can and his publisher has obviously set him up with DOZENS of ‘interviews’ even just in the last 48 hours. He must be ‘wiped out’ just from these ‘appearances’ alone.
But here is something VERY interesting that Brendan said on the radio, at one of the ‘interview’ links Joy just provided below…
KTAR News ( Radio )
May 2, 2016 – Hour: 3
http://ktar.com/player/?a=321314
Content description…
Mac and Gaydos of KTAR Radio talk with Brendan McDonough, the sole survivor of the Yarnell Hill Fire that killed 19 of his firefighting brothers. Brandon wrote the book “My Lost Brothers.” which will be available for sale tomorrow, May 3, 2016.
From this radio interview with Brendan McDonough…
—————————————————————————————
+16:23
Interviewer: With the investigation… did you… did you read over the investigation?
Do you kind of agree with what the investigation found?
What were your thoughts on how it all kinda sort of ended and wrapped up with the government investigating everything?
+16:34
Brendan McDonough: I think with the investigation there’s some things that… there’s definitely some things that have been found since then. Since the investigation. I believe it needs to be opened up again and some… certain things need to be added to it because… any decision that was made that day led to their death… and we need to learn from that… and the wildfire community needs to have those answers and those lessons so that we can prevent this again. So I believe there’s a LOT of information that has been found and… will probably CONTINUE to be found for quite some time that needs to be put… put in there… so when someone looks it up that they can… they can SEE it… they can LEARN from it. Ya know… 20 years from down from the road these young fireman can… can SEE these lessons learned… and PREVENT it.
—————————————————————————————–
So Brendan is specifically calling for the ‘re-opening’ of the Yarnell Hill Fire investigation and he says (quote) “certain things need to be added to it” because (quote) “any decision that was made that day led to their deaths”.
There’s no other way to read that other than to now assume Brendan is SURE there is “more to learn” about why the GM Hotshots ended up where they were… and that these ‘other things’ that he is sure have YET to be revealed represent important “lessons to learn” for future Wildland Firefighters.
He basically just said that he believes there were “decisions made” along the lines of “orders from fire command” that were made that day ( and which caused them to end up where they were ) which have yet to be revealed… but still SHOULD be revealed.
And he’s not talking here about ORDERS from just Eric Marsh, either.
Brendan seems to be saying “look up” and ask WHY even Eric Marsh would have been insisting that Jesse Steed bring the crew out of the ‘safe black’.
I don’t know if Brendan also “goes there” in his book, or not, ( I have still not read his book )… but that sure as heck is what he just implied ( in PUBLIC ) on the radio.
wwtktt said:
I don’t know if Brendan also “goes there” in his book, or not, ( I have still not read his book )… but that sure as heck is what he just implied ( in PUBLIC ) on the radio.
my reply: and again thank you Brendan
also when DuPuy the dispatcher commented on the NO EXIT movie page-
Mark Peveto said he was on the fire so can this person PLEASE step forward and say HOW the movie CAN get it RIGHT—
I don’t do facebook but I want HIS name tagged to THIS site:
Mark Peveto Mesa Interagency Hotshot Crew
also would like to name Darby Starr, Sun City West FD
would love you to share in purity what YHF meant to you
and name Coy Boggler from Sun City West..please step forward and share YHF in your words—
would love to hear from— Sun City West Fire District Assistant Chief Mary Dalton; a Prescott area resident and her son is a wildland firefighter who knew the men in the crew and what is your take on the YHF
is your name below?
I would love to tag you to THIS site and hear your side of the YHF:
Darby Starr – Sun City West FD Paul Dutra – Mesa FD Gus Carboun – Mesa FD Wayne Clement – Guadalupe FD Chad Leas – Buckeye Valley FD Troy Shepherd – Harquahala FD Dan Davis – Glendale FD Craig Demerling – Sun Lakes FD Ariel Barr – Sun Lakes FD RobRoy Williams – BLM Bob Matthews – Tempe FD Al DiBenedetto – Scottsdale FD Mike Godleski – Sun City FD Manuel B. Vasquez – Sun City FD Todd Foster – Tempe FD
Gary- you will like this photo 🙂
https://www.facebook.com/1616135541938820/photos/pb.1616135541938820.-2207520000.1462402994./1623492037869837/?type=3&theater
Yes, that one is a keeper.
one day I would like to meet the mother and child of Anthony Rose-
http://www.azcentral.com/news/arizona/articles/20131107yarnell-hotshots-widow-gives-birth-daughter.html
Marcia- I have HOPE you will have your day…
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2458419/Tiffany-Hettrick-widow-Hotshot-firefighter-Anthony-Rose-killed-Arizona-blaze-gives-birth-baby-girl.html
this was a great archived article—
I would love to have a sit down with Wade Ward later on when he retires on topic- you guessed it; YHF
also would like to hear from any employee/firefighter/hotshot from:
http://bia.gov/nifc/operations/IHP/Zuni/
what about you- Prescott Fire Battalion Chief Ralph Lucas n Don Devendorf…feel like opening up here on this site?
by the way I am not a fan of Roy Hall because he made this public comment:
“There’s no smoking gun here,” said Hall, a retired U.S. Forest Service firefighter who now works part time for the Arizona Division of Forestry. “There’s nothing we could have done differently that would necessarily have changed the outcome.”
http://www.azcentral.com/news/articles/20131002yarnell-hill-fire-report-commander.html
it’s a bullshit…when he said there is NOTHING that could of been done differently that would necessarily have changed the outcome.”…
the other bullshit was this:
Investigators said the fire “outperformed their expectations,”
That fire was containable early on…idiots…so you want to talk who are idiots…it is the ones running this circus
I remember 9/11 because it affected me on a personal (family/friend) level…but when I say…
ALWAYS REMEMBER-
Fill in the blank:
I was ________________ when I heard the news of the YHF and it took lives and homes.
I was just coming out the front door of the Yavapai College evacuation shelter when Eddie Trevino came up to us the hikers and we the hikers were in a squabble because Dewanna had just told me that fire officials were in the Yavapai college analyzing Arizona maps on fires that had not yet happened but they were naming off Hualapai and Globe area and that happen soon after returning from evacuation…and Eddie’s high energy and spirit was so sweet and Anne Ryman too of Arizona Republic and hearing the news was like a punch to the gut and immediately it felt like these 19 were ALWAYS going to be REMEMBERED and I hold a lot of HOPE that clarity WILL BE reached- I did not hear the news that night on 6-30-13 about the homes or the firefighters because I was outside in the college parking lot with Sonny trying to encourage that togetherness indoors would be a good thing but Sonny felt like the whole deal was a prison martial law bs and wanted no part of it but Sonny helped so many peoples’ lives when he went in that evacuation building and to this day truly many come to me thanking me and Sonny for being there for them from the very start and never giving up so that they can carry on and move forward. On July 1st, 2013 the evacuation shelter surprised me with a beautiful birthday cake and such a special gathering and it was not until my birthday I learned 19 men died and watched as the desert walker that I am on tv the aerial shots and I know that terrain BETTER THAN anyone so I was watching and labelling for the people who’s home was on the aerial and to this day people are in disbelief how I knew it was THEIR home by quick shots on a tv media aerial few second shot and I was SPOT ON…it angered people that I knew it was THEIR home and they did not realize it by aerial shots so I took photos of the tv shots and we went on evacuation computers and we sat and reviewed photos/described how I knew and I held so deeply and I mean DEEP people who wept for 19 men and they lost their homes and it was sooooo deep that I am a sensitive gal but “feelings” or connecting to every day folks was way too new for me…I only knew A-listers and govt folks or just people normal every day folks don’t know or interact with and view on their boob tubes…so here I am hugging with depth strangers just to me in my desert walking mind folks on the map on who to ask for permission to walk across their land or not…I did not socially know the community like activities just my walks and talks and helping people in need…so that was way new to me and I am not a gal who hugs like that…shit I am the one who learned the photos I took were of the GMHS from Joanna Dodder of the daily courier—and I am the shit head that when on the Weavers told widows…yes widows after a very brief greet as I walked away “happy trails”…who the hell says that but the desert walker who is desensitized that these widows just had their loved ones perish—so I have not been all great in this YHF aftermath but then again I can say I have been PRESENT and GENUINE and will not abandon this journey and sure in hell hope RTS and Bob can share what they were doing when they heard the news and continue to be here and Gary you know better than that to say you wish they never came back because in reality we are a family unit and a lot of this family unit have faced loved one losses and some due to fire or tragedy or accidents so let’s embrace and respect another for WHO we are versus tearing down another.
I did chuckle on the stay in the crew carrier comment about Bob not because I can see Bob doing that but the stuff that comes out of your mouth—
I dedicate my life ONCE…STILL…ALWAYS have…AWLAYS will for the ones affected to the YHF…
these are my strong memories of the YHF aftermath…within a week coming back I was helping people clean debris…fix lines…just hardwork day in and out with no rest and this footage aired-
http://www.azcentral.com/news/arizona/articles/20130705yarnell-fire-andrew-ashcraft-obit.html
and then I was hooked at the thought these kids no longer have a dad and how can we honor their loss and I know I failed at times because it is all new to me how to interact with the world online and offline…even though there is no friendships built with some…I can tell you there is peace where there use to be pain and anger…
This fire was not wild in the start but due to HIGHER UPS’ miscalculations and miscommunications and chaos and just a mess…so I am not going to ever move on like some wish I would…I am gonna KEEP asking for FOIAs and looking under rugs
I remember helping UNITED WAY by us the hikers delivering so many FREE items and one home I put so much free yard tools and cleaning tools and paper goods and water and food to have them later with tone say “why the hell are you leaving me cleaning items when my house burnt down and there is no God damn home to clean”
You felt the anger when it was said…I mean I felt it but looking back it was kind of funny but we figured they can use it later and it was FREE right then and who knows if it was gonna be there later on…I cannot tell you HOW MANY times I was -not Sonny- the ANGER punching bag in all this from so many…but I remained. I too, Gary, have been officially and in a court room and by state been asked to walk away and move on but how can any person do that when NINETEEN men perished? I cannot.
http://www.abc15.com/news/region-central-southern-az/other/yarnell-fire-arizona-fire-that-killed-19-now-8-contained
at 59 second mark—possible African American
there is about 6 videos/photos I remember online of the man and WHY I am up late trying to look—
Reply to Joy A. Collura post on May 4, 2016 at 1:28 am
>> Joy A. Collura said…
>>
>> at 59 second mark—possible African American
Yes. Possible. ( You are talking about the THIRD video in the ‘toolbar’ on that page… and the fellow with the Blue Helmet who is giving arm signals to the helicopter, right? ).
That would make him a ‘Helitack’ crew member ( Exact Unit unknown ).
Even if he had any kind of ‘Cajun Accent’… it’s doubtful this Helitack would have been the one being heard asking Granite Mountain at 4:13 PM, June 30, 2016…
“Granite Montun… ( Caller’s CALLSIGN? )… wuz yo stay-tus rat now?”
I really wish that third WORD there in that radio capture was more clear.
It very likely IS the ‘callsign’ of whoever was making that radio callout at 4:31 PM.
As far as I can tell ( even with audio enhancement )… that THIRD WORD is
still either something like ‘Five’ or ‘Fire’.
Definitely sounds like the START of the word are the letters ‘F’ and ‘I’.
I know we’ve been over this before… but I’ll ask it again as long as we are revisiting this 4:13 PM radio transmission with that ‘heavy accent’ on whoever was calling GM.
Is it ever common for someone to actually just use the callsign ‘Fire’ on a Wildland Fire… and if so… WHO is that supposed to represent… and is that ‘common knowledge’?
In other words… if you ever actually HEAR someone using the callsign ‘Fire’… are you supposed to assume that is someone in particular like the actual IC… or one of the Safety Officers… or what?
there is about 6 videos/photos I remember online of the man and WHY I am up late trying to look—
Typo above…
I typed 4:30 where I should have typed 4:13.
I was ONLY talking about that 4:13 PM radio callout in the previous post, so that sentence above should have read like this…
————————————–
I really wish that third WORD there in that radio capture was more clear.
It very likely IS the ‘callsign’ of whoever was making that radio callout at 4:13 PM.
————————————–
I am still looking for that other footage of the missing Cajun-
16:50 mark
thank you Brendan 🙂
http://ktar.com/player/?a=321314
could you one day be one of those people—that speak up too?
http://fernandasantosbooks.com/press/
http://www.indystar.com/story/news/local/arizona/2016/04/29/families-of-killed-firefighters-hike-path-of-yarnell-fire/83704296/
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iks_ZjXnpZ4
http://www.abc15.com/news/region-northern-az/prescott/brendan-mcdonough-update-sole-survivor-of-yarnell-hill-fire-releases-book
http://www.cbs5az.com/Clip/12404772/sole-survivor-of-yarnell-hill-fire-remembers-brothers-in-new-book
Reply to Joy A. Collura post on May 4, 2016 at 12:33 am
>> Joy A. Collura said…
>>
>> 16:50 mark
>>
>> thank you Brendan 🙂
>>
>> http://ktar.com/player/?a=321314
>>
>> could you one day be one of those people—that speak up too?
What Brendan actually says there in that KTAR radio interview he gave just the other day ( on May 2, 2016 ) is astounding.
Brendan McDonough… the only survivor from the entire Granite Mountain Hotshot crew… has now PUBLICLY said be believes that the original Arizona Forestry SAIT investigation was ‘incomplete’… and that it should REPOENED.
That there are still many things that future Wildland Firefighters ‘need to know’ about why the Granite Mountain Hotshots ended up where they were that day.
And it goes beyond even what he may or may not have heard ( himself ) over the radio.
See a longer ‘Reply’ up above at this link…
http://www.investigativemedia.com/please-begin-yarnell-hill-fire-chapter-xx-here/#comment-334257
azfamily.com 3TV | Phoenix Breaking News, Weather, Sport
http://www.azfamily.com/Clip/12404324/lone-survivor-from-yarnell-hill-fire-tragedy-talks-about-new-book
http://ktar.com/player/?a=321314
http://www.fox10tv.com/story/31868224/yarnell-hill-fire-survivor-its-a-tough-life-to-live
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kKl0auJdfvs
strange…well known New York Times editor Fernanda Santos is getting less PR than Donut on internet search-
http://www.abc15.com/news/region-northern-az/prescott/new-york-times-reporter-pens-the-fire-line-as-tribute-to-granite-mountain-hotshots
http://www.cbs5az.com/story/31869823/new-book-offers-intimate-look-into-lives-of-yarnell-19
http://www.azfamily.com/story/31870099/new-book-offers-intimate-look-into-lives-of-yarnell-19
http://www.kyma.com/fire-line-portrays-the-story-of-19-brave-souls/
http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2016/may/2/new-book-about-ariz-wildfire-that-killed-19-firefi/
http://www.phoenixnewtimes.com/arts/two-new-yarnell-hill-fire-books-make-perfect-companion-pieces-8247978
http://dcourier.com/news/2016/may/03/new-book-hotshots-aims-piece-together-details-trag/
Reply to Gary Olson post on May 2, 2016 at 7:41 pm
>> Gary Olson said…
>>
>> Well…somebody just told me they think that might have been
>> a Type II crew, but I thought I saw at least one of the Three Stooges
>> in the photo?
Gary… I found the photo you were looking for of that ‘crew’ in front of the ‘Yarnell’ sign… and you are right… there is an ‘African American’ FF in the photo.
And yea… this could be a photo of that ‘Globe Type 2’ crew that was known to be working Yarnell the day of the tragedy… and in the days that followed.
Joy actually posted a link to this photo down below in this Chapter…
Here is Joy’s original link from below ( with a link to the ‘Crew’ photo )…
—————————————————————————————-
On April 4, 2016 at 5:32 pm, Joy A. Collura says
funny that these men can pose for a photo but ODD none of them
are in SAIR or ever talk publicly?
hmm…
https://plus.google.com/photos/110724344305143712029/albums/6038372134406111633/6038372137813459330?sqi=112727709127542996420&sqsi=5b593a30-4523-42d7-a892-d9f2e6ab9882&pid=6038372137813459330&oid=110724344305143712029
——————————————————————————————
The photo of this ‘crew’ at the link above was taken in Yarnell on July 4, 2013, at the Ranch House Restaurant and in front of the now famous SIGN that faces Highway 89 and says… “Welcome to Yarnell – Where The Desert Breeze Meets The Mountain Air”
There are 17 FFs (total) seen in this photo.
There is an ‘African American’ FF standing 4th from the left in the back row.
The man to his RIGHT ( 3rd from the left ) *might* also be ‘African American’.
All 17 of the FFs in the photo are wearing BLACK ball-caps with the ‘AZFIRE’ logo on them.
The photo was taken by Google+ user 4490red.
That’s the same ‘4490red’ who posted those original four ‘Globe Type 2 Crew’ videos that he took while working in Yarnell on the day of the tragedy… June 30, 2013.
That ‘Globe’ crew stayed in Yarnell and continued fighting the fire for a few days.
So I don’t know if this is the ‘Globe Type 2 Crew’ that 4490 was working with there in Yarnell ( 4490red calls them ‘his brothers’ in his photo description )… or whether this is one of the DOC prison crews that was working Yarnell.
More later.
I think it is the Globe Type 2 Crew rather than a DOC crew although it is pretty hard to tell. Those guys look pretty shifty to me, maybe we should run them through NCIC anyway to see how many hits we can get? Looks like my big lead is a dead end…bummer. We still have a Cajun on the loose.
It’s the Globe #1 Type 2 prison crew that was C-4 on the resource order and was assigned to the Yarnell Hill fire at 0700 on 6/30/13. GM IHC was C-5 and Blue Ridge was C-3.
https://www.dropbox.com/sh/02ue6bnjp6nazkm/AABR9l_vNwy4gJmlc-T7x8Fha/Resource%20Orders/J-%20Resource%20Orders.pdf?dl=0
Woodsman
Page 32 of the resource orders: Globe type 2 prison crew C-4
https://www.dropbox.com/sh/02ue6bnjp6nazkm/AABR9l_vNwy4gJmlc-T7x8Fha/Resource%20Orders/J-%20Resource%20Orders.pdf?dl=0
Woodsman
Reply to Woodsman post on May 4, 2016 at 7:42 pm
>> Woodsman said…
>>
>> Page 32 of the resource orders: Globe type 2 prison crew C-4
https://www.dropbox.com/sh/02ue6bnjp6nazkm/AABR9l_vNwy4gJmlc-T7x8Fha/Resource%20Orders/J-%20Resource%20Orders.pdf?dl=0
Copy that. Thank you.
So the answer to whether or not this was the ‘Type 2 Globe’ crew or a ‘DOC crew’ is simply… YES.
It was BOTH.
These were NOT the ‘Globe Type 1 Hotshots’.
They were that OTHER ‘Globe DOC Type 2’ crew who were ‘ordered up’ for Yarnell on Saturday night and showed up the next morning, Sunday, June 30, 2013.
ADOSH requested the NAMES of all the DOC crew that had been working in Yarnell for the whole shebang.. soup to nuts… but all Arizona Forestry would ever give ADOSH was the names of the ‘overhead’ for all the DOC crews.
Here is what Arizona Forestry gave ADOSH ( in an email ) regarding the ‘Globe Type 3 DOC crew’ that was there in Yarnell the day of tragedy ( and until July 4, 2013 )…
NOTE: “CO” stands for “Corrections Officer”
—————————————————————–
Globe Type 2 Superintendent: Sgt. Paulson ( Cell Phone: xxxxxxxxxx )
Globe Type 2 Staff…
CO II Soto
CO II Caulfield
CO II Gallion
CO II Rush
—————————————————————–
So at least SOME of these ‘names’ are there in that photo taken on the day this ‘Globe DOC Type 2 Crew’ was ‘demobbing’ from the Yarnell Hill Fire ( on July 4, 2013 ).
Obvious TYPO up above.
The ‘Globe DOC’ crew was a Type 2 crew ( not a Type 3 ).
Paragraph above should have read like this…
————————————————–
Here is what Arizona Forestry gave ADOSH ( in an email ) regarding the ‘Globe Type 2 DOC crew’ that was there in Yarnell the day of tragedy ( and until July 4, 2013 )…
————————————————–
Staff Ride, Beta, Still after several weeks of reflection is hard to get my head around ICMT Group, thier thoughts and ideas of how to manage a fire. How they put this dog and pony show on for the families, I am super proud of Juliann Ascraft, she is composed and fairly spot on, full of questions and willing and waiting for plausable answers.
Also was amazed by the presence of Marcia McKee and her being bailed on by her compainon for the Hike, Fred Scheoffler, what a dick move. She gets over exerted, has to be taken out by two of the cadre, taking them away from us and leaving his sorry ass with us. I also understand that he was given some instruction to keep his distance from Mrs Phingston, and with good reason, probably good I was unaware of this till whole thing was done.
I have learned that some of the Blue Ridge crew have been on the following SRs. One of them indicated that they were assigned to Gary Cordes for Structure Protection. This assignment along with the assignment and acceptance by GMHS to take the anchor continus to reinforce my belief that the full complement of Incident Command Staff and the IA Crew for Yarnell Hill was Derelict in their duties. Did IC think they could “Manage” the Fire and burn out overgrown worthless chaparral?
From the more I hear from WFF, Captians, Engine Bosses, they have a huge MIS-TRUST of overhead. It shows, with the lack of thought, foresight, gameplan, and doing their own job of keeping up with their crews. How did these IC guys get their jobs, no one else raised their hand?
Assigning BR to Structure Protection and sending them out to hang out with the GMHS Buggies to baby sit them is just STUPID. Frisby must not of thought much of his supervisor, as he sat his crew on their ass, while he rode around meet with Div A, looking for a plan of his OWN. The idea of BR using the dozer to improve Sesame Street so they might protect Yarnell, Really?
Meanwhile back at Investigative Media the only plan I keep reading about is the 10 and fucking 18, one thing is for sure nobody seem to follow order #10. had someone used this order on Saturday or Sunday, GMHS might still be here.
Agreed.
Are you going to be there for Donut’s book signing event …just curious…my book has a bunch of ?s in it… And I may pop in… Well David brought up a lot of good stuff yet the RTS part…I think there may be missing details and I will let RTS answer ya there since it’s his area but I think its perception and where ya stand on topic…I cannot imagine why D Pfingston would have concern to RTS,..new to me. I recently had a biker stop me David said his name was Bill and said he knew you and said you are kick ass person. I said to him never met a lot but both hikers forever are sorry for your loss and I will keep my door open to gain clarity and never will walk away from your son…never.
Well Dave seems to know a lot of nothing.
First I have read to important E-Mails of thanks from Mrs. McKee and her very close friend Praising and Thanking RTS. Who was with Dave and two other Families on the Walk which Mrs. McKee asked RTS to Finish and meet her at the Deployment site.
All of the group got along. Then I see Dave found out who RTS is and changed his
attitude after the Hike. Enough Said.
Also Dave would rather Put People in Fire Shelters than continue to train in the 10 and 18. I do not expect him or his Wife to understand them as he was never a Wild Land Fire Fighter. The end result of Granit Mountain was the total lack of following the 10 and using the 18 to establish their safety. Yes the Team its self seemed to have also lost their safety consideration of the management of the Fire They failed to follow some of the Basics.
Since Dave and His wife used my name in his blog to call the 10 and 18 out of date
I would like to reply that they are as current and exact safety rules today as they were in 1957 when they were established. The 10 and 18 fit the current extreme fire conditions of today if they are relied upon and used.
FIRE WEATHER– COMMUNICATIONS– LOOK OUTS– ESCAPE ROUTS– SAFETY ZONES –FIRE BEHAVIOR– INSTRUCTIONS– SUPERVISION– CONTROL OF FORCES– PROVIDE FOR SAFETY.
Those are the basic orders the simple facts of how to do a fire suppression job safely.
NO ONE IN 60 years has come up with any thing to make it better the ORDERS are still the best direction to keep FIRE FIGHTERS SAFE.
The most important thing is to never get in a situation to have to rely on a fire shelter.
No one is discussing the fact that in 2000 degrees how long will your Oxygen last under that Shelter? Maybe you can build a Shelter that will withstand 2000 Degrees but what will happen to the oxygen?
The Safety Rules/ORDERS have kept 95% of Wild Land Fire Fighters safe and they have never Deployed. I would say that is a Very High statistic.
those who have died thru Burn Overs did so because they did not follow the rules.
That is still fact. Environmental accidents can as well be avoided, Rocks and trees Every accident has a Identified Action and a Out come. You can mediate exposures with proper safety actions. Thus the 10 and 18. Taking any risk is violating the Safety rules no matter how small.
No Fire Fighter should ever consider a risk to be justifiable for any reason.
How many times do I have to tell you to shut the fuck up poser. You sound like a broken record, management and Fred didn’t do anything wrong, follow the 19 and the 18 and they will set you free. You are an even bigger dickhead than Fred and he is one of the biggest dickheads I have ever known. Still skulking around in the background, how many times are you going to tell me goodbye and then keep coming back for another beating.
You gave up all of credibility here on this thread Bob…you did that because you BLEED GREEN. OK…you proved it, you bleed green, we need people who BLEED RED like the crew. Fuck off two season hotshot.
I was hoping neither you nor Fred ever came back here, Fred has been singing the same song just like you for three years now.
Mis-stroke on the keyboard, the 10 and the 18, but all of you probably knew that.
Gary you are proving two things you are the Dick Head.
You do not have enough time and certification to even tell me
What you think about wild land fire.
I do not poser any thing and My credentials stack way above yours in wild land fire.
Hot Shots were a step in my ladder to success. I stayed in fire because for one thing I was not allergic to smoke like some pansy ass we Know.
If all you have is coming on here calling me names and saying shut the fuck up you have truly lost the argument.
You think IM has turned into your fucking little sand box enjoy it you have turned it into Idiotville with a Alcoholic druggy who is off his Meds. Bullies are a dime a dozen and you not worth TWO CENTS.
Maybe John should kick your ass off of here you are becoming a determent to this discussion.
Yes since there is nothing going on here any way this time it is ADIOS MOTHER FUCKER
With No civility here mainly on Gary’s part.
Without RTS or my self providing added information this site is about to crash.
I have no reason to get on here to be called every name in the book for no reason. With that the few of you still searching Good luck. Gary is driving the rest OLD and NEW away do to his attacks and ranting’s.
why Gary, why?
Don’t you feel they have done a lot here?
I know they helped educate the hikers.
Joy,
You are a real gem so I am going to explain this to you.
1. I have gone back through most of the posts and ALL RTS has ever said is that it was Marsh and Steed’s fault ONLY and they should have followed the 10 and the 18, we that get that, we really do. We don’t need to hear it anymore.
2. I have gone back through most of the posts and ALL Bob has ever said is that it was Marsh and Steed’s fault ONLY and they should have followed the 10 and the 18, we get that, we really do. We don’t need to hear it anymore.
After reading this thread in it’s entirety, I now fully comprehend the only thing RTS and now Fred has ever done is to throw out shiny objects and smoke grenades to hide the truth that the fire team and his buddies were far more responsible for the deaths of the crew than a lot of people understand.
Fred is protecting his tribe, that bastard collection of Battalion Chiefs, structural firefighters, hybrids and WF turncoats he belongs to. He will only spread more disinformation, he is a combination of Lucifer In The Flesh and Judas Iscariot. Fred is really smart and that makes him very dangerous as a traitor to his kind.
Bob has repeatedly said over and over again that he “bleeds green”, Joy…that means he is a company man and company men NEVER find fault with bosses, that is what the definition of a company man is.
I didn’t call him that…HE called himself that. I worked for the USFS for 14 years. I used to say I bled green. That means you support the agency line and policies no matter what.
We don’t need anybody here that supports the agencies no matter what. We need people here that support the truth.
Bob also said his friends are the most important thing in the world to him, not the job at hand, not the truth and not saving wildland firefighters in the future…his friends. I didn’t say that about him,he said that about himself.
On the other hand, Bob is not dangerous as RTS’s bitch, he is just annoying because he is so stupid.
I think Bob’s vagina always hurt too much to be a real wildland firefighter. He must have gotten ash in it the first time he went on the line so he never wanted to go back and risk it again.
That is why he only lasted two years as a hotshot and went for as many do nothing overhead jobs as he could pencil whip himself into because he didn’t like to work.
He said he was burned out by the time he was 50 and had to retire, I didn’t say that…he said that.
Gary said” We don’t need anybody here that supports the agencies no matter what. We need people here that support the truth. ”
MY REPLY- I believe so strongly in freedom of speech and allowing people to be their own assessor on what is what…where is Otis…chime in UK- ok.
Recently I asked JD to remove comments I made on Holly and I at first was like how come they are still there but in it I was very educated to what Dr. Ted Putnam taught me and BE MINDFUL and at times I am not…so it was what it was…as JD named it…and life goes on…You said what you feel & COOL and I still think RTS and Bob and others should too…the only part I did not like about EN on my emails and phone talks was the improper time she would engage in like a lawyer debate mannerism on topics so far out my thought process and YES she named RTS way long ago…but in it “who cares”…I am glad the truth made its way out there and I hope more comes out from the YHF too…that’s all…EVERYONE MATTERS!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Fkg_DDO2zI
oh and if I have not said it and I should always say it thank you to Marti Reed and WWTKTT for always staying on top of resources and sources and any photos I have given or others; thank you.
at 3:40/7:42 what time was that photo taken- that is Sesame Street fence and the Shrine in the background where smoke plume is
at marker 5:03/7:42—that Glendale truck I watched 6-30-13; where is that testimony in SAIR? You thought I forgot you Glendale- hell no—you are one of the missing elements.
5:42 mark of video
That is Fred Brown’s blue house in photo sporting Arizona flag proudly…why doesn’t ARIZONA do right by Fred who’s home burnt down at his elderly age who now lives in a lil rv behind McDonalds in Wickenburg because of bs tie ups…Yeah, you all did not help everyone in the aftermath…
what time was 6:24 photo taken?
I am confused that they have the rumored alleged back burn in place which was clocked to have happened between 3:13pm-3:38pm and the wind made it go squirrely/wirey? SO let desert walker me know how it went from 3:40/7:42 OVER BY THE SHRINE AREA with plume and the timing of that 3:40 pic is? and to then this 6:24 mark pic and what time this is…to now Manzanita IS ON fire…hmmm….explain that fire behavior to me…and when did Glendale truck and rigs leave that area?
maybe not a mis-stroke Gary
19 men died—maybe it’s like this REMEMBER the 19 …how one man who is still ALIVE changed the lives of 19 men due to miscommunication and chaos and confusion happen…that man who is ALIVE if he can realize while he was in an air conditioned room that day in his authoritarian role not exactly realizing his bark of words would be a contributing factor in 19 dying; these 19 men tired as all hell travelled up that Weavers in that heat and geared up like they were and the world can buy Donut’s apple media bs this week but WAY TOO SMALL of town that the people who know Donut know he is a drinking/woman man and quite simple but not this apple pie image…but I am glad he says there is MORE THAN what the SAIR put out…now for Donut to have triggers—that is natural but enough on saying the community helped him heal so strongly when I know the dark days of him…he better really look around him and know who leaks his life to others and who are his pals and yes Donut that includes your “brotherhood” ex GMHS pals….and ther firefighters. I am disappointed to this date without reading book but its about to arrive how Donut perceives honoring the 19…why please answer me why so many write books when they should hang there heads down in SHAME and realize what really happened 6-30-13…I feel like the human factors have not been really talked about much…but we can sit on this side line and judge Bob Powers and RTS and why not just RESPECT them for the men God made them to be— I like everyone’s views and perceptions here and I welcome them and I hope RTS and everyone remains here versus breaking the souls of the bloggers to cease; standing firm no matter if I am bashed I will keep looking for clarity and keep being ME here and if someone don’t like it than pass my comments or rip on me—I really don’t mind; really. TEE IT UP and get it out…we have to get the anger and frustrations up and out- it may mean you mean what you say but not always…sometimes it is what we mean for that moment….to tee it up and out…I love everyone here for their continued coming back here 🙂
If you and Fred are representatives examples of Oak Grove crew it’s no wonder they were disbanded. You were probably afraid to get out the crew carrier.
Bob’s Ten Rules For Fighting Fire Safely
“Never leave the crew carrier, never leave the crew carrier, never leave the crew carrier,never leave the crew carrier, never leave the crew carrier,never leave the crew carrier,never leave the crew carrier, never leave the crew carrier, never leave the crew carrier, never leave the crew carrier.
Signed; Bob Bleed Green Powers
Why don’t you take up fishin’ in the Snake for a hobby Bob? Do you need me to buy you a pole? What kind do you want?
It’s OK for you to move on Bob. You’re work here is done and has been for almost three years. We get it. The 10 and the 18 are important. If the crew would have followed them they would still be alive. We understand, you have already told us that thousands of times. We are not as slow as you are Bob and apparently as slow as the rest of the Oak Grove crew was if they needed you to be the Number Two Go-To-Guy.
“Hey Bob…what do you think we should do?
“I think we should follow the 10 and the 18!”
“OK Bob…thanks”
We get it. Please move on. Really…what kind of pole do you want?
Oh…and one more thing. As far as Mrs. McKee goes. She is a very nice person who has manners. She was just being gracious and kind while she showed class in how she spoke of and thanked Fred The DicKhead Scheoffler.
You know, it’s kind of like when you go to a party, well…it’s like when somebody who would actually be invited to a party goes to one…and it really sucks. You wouldn’t write them a thank you note and say, “Your party sucked and you are a Dickhead.” Well…you probably would, so disregard that.
Most people would write, “Thank you for inviting me to your wonderful party, I had a great time.” It’s called be polite Bob. Don’t take it to the bank and try to cash it because it will just bounce.
Bob said: The most important thing is to never get in a situation to have to rely on a fire shelter.
No one is discussing the fact that in 2000 degrees how long will your Oxygen last under that Shelter? Maybe you can build a Shelter that will withstand 2000 Degrees but what will happen to the oxygen?
MY REPLY: Zack Ashoor if he were still alive today would of been trying to get those answers and that was his project at hand- “oxygen”
Yes joy and the point is to carry a tank of oxygen will add even more weight than the shelter weight. They are already at max weight.
My message is to put your self in the training safety you are taught.
Zack Ashoor was saying they were working on emergency light weight portable ones.
Joy two things to consider Time up to a Half Hour under the shelter.
The big one is what dose Oxygen do in extreme heat and flame?
It explodes. The special tanks that Structure FF Carrie are heavy with full face masks No matter what the size it will add extra weight with a thin wall that could cause problems.
Bob said:
“Well Dave seems to know a lot of nothing.”
Have you no common decency? Is your mind so completely focused on defending someone you barely knew (but was briefly on the same crew as you) so strong that you would hurl insults to the father of a dead hotshot in defense of him? I’ve tried to respect what you have to say purely in honor of your experience in fire and the personal loss you have had as well but I have to tell you: you disgust me.
I have a hard time wrapping my head around your motive to defend RTS and every member of overhead on the Yarnell Hill fire no matter what. Why? You are wrong on so many points it’s astounding. You, Fred, many of the overhead on the Yarnell Hill fire, overhead on other fires, and hybrid firefighters across the country share blame for numerous injuries & fatalities nationwide over a number of years & you don’t seem to want to face the possibility of this truth.
You and Fred are defenders of the system. That is clear to me. You are both obstacles to the truth.
Woodsman
My book writing today was interrupted when this random thought popped into my head and I want to share it with you because you are….you know the rest.
I have thought about it some more and I am not ready to give up on my lead that the black guy in the photo of the Type II crew may be the Cajun.
What may have happened, is that they took the miscellaneous overhead from the local area and put them all together with some reinforcements from the Prescott and maybe the Kaibab and formed a Type II crew to work the fire rather than go home once the Type I Team came in and took over the fire. And that is why I saw the 3 Prescottiers in the photo.
There ARE African Americans up around Williams (and Flagstaff) because Southwest Forest Industries brought an entire black community about a hundred years ago and deposited them in Williams, Flagstaff and McNary up on the White Mountain Apace Reservation when they completely relocated all of their logging and mill business from…Louisiana.
And there where always a couple of black guys who are descendants of those families (I think) working on the Kaibab, which is headquartered out of Williams and is very near Prescott and the two forests adjoin each other. There even could be a black guy working on the Prescott in this day and age that transferred from the Kaibab or came over from Williams in the first place or maybe even Region 8 although if I were a black guy, I wouldn’t be brave enough to move to Prescott, Ariziona…Everybody’s Home Town, just sayin’…
I went to the Prescott high school which had more than 1200 students and there was 1 black guy and no black girls. You almost never even see black people visiting Prescott…big surprise.
So…I am going to keep looking for the photo to see if we can ID the guy. Or once again, somebody could just help us out by naming the black gentleman who was working on the Type II crew who posed in front of the “Where the desert breeze meets the mountain air – Yarnell” sign so I can ask him if he has a Cajun accent and was working on the Yarnell Hill Fire as miscellaneous and knows who Eric Marsh wanted to make happy so bad on June 30, 2013.
Is this racial profiling? I sure hope not.
And…as long as I am here I might as well clean up and fill out a comment I made yesterday.
I said, as I have said multiple times in the last three years that the crew should have run rather than lay down on the ground to be burned alive. I have always gotten push back from people who say they didn’t have anywhere to run to, they couldn’t go back uphill, it was to steep and the hot gasses were going that way. And they couldn’t run north, it was uphill and the fire was coming from that direction and they couldn’t go east because the fire was sweeping around the round top and being sucked up the canyon.
Yes…to all of that. But then I always come back with, you just don’t get it. If where you are thinking about deploying is NOT survivable and it is NOT a close call…then you must run and at least die on your feet fighting.
Although Sonny has always said he thinks the boulder field to the south would have been a better place to go but maybe all of them would not have survived. And I will go with Sonny’s call on this one because he proved himself that day to have common sense and survival skills. And then I come back with…yes, but some of them WOULD have survived and wouldn’t we take that deal?
And then there are the complete idiots like Bill Gabbert who say, “We know more or less what happened that day and additional details won’t add really anything so what difference does it make.” Bill Gabbert spent most of his career managing fire (allegedly…in the Dakotas, not exactly a hot zone for wildfires) for the National Park Service…if that tells you anything, and it tells most of you a everything you need to know about Bill Gabbert.
And to that I say, “Well…it is not about changing what happened LAST time…it is about preventing it from happening NEXT time.” I think that is worthwhile even if Bill Gabbert and a few other don’t.
That is the back story and here is my clean up and fill out to my comment yesterday. I said that they should have run anywhere, rather than laying down to die in a place that is clearly not survivable by a long shot. Remember it was 20×30 feet and they needed about 16.5 acres to keep from being seriously burned and maybe killed, That is bigger even than a tennis court.
And I also said that if there was no where else to run…I would try running through the flames and I think that tactic should be taught in wildland firefighter training. That is a take off on what WTKTT suggested months ago and I have been thinking about it ever since. I don’t think that is a bad idea if you are going to die by laying down and there is literally no where else to run (if the boulder field had not been there to the south).
I said something about it was a brush fire and not a timber fire with heavy fuels that are going to burn for hours or even days. I would rather try that desperate tactic in a grass fire on in the desert brush like there is in the Sonoran Desert but…? Those kind of fires burn fast and hot but not long.
WTKTT even suggested widland firefighters use their fire shelters as a shield in front of them as they run forward…and I think that is a great idea that was never taught to me, and I never even considered. I do think I have heard of people doing that with blankets etc. in a house fire…so why not?
So…here is my food for thought that may add something to the discussion that I hope follows. I can tell you one thing for sure, you are going to read about this concept in my much anticipated and highly acclaimed book I now MAY finish, “The Rise of the Hybrid Firefighters.”
On the Battlement Creek Fire, which I also mentioned yesterday, two of the firefighters did exactly what we are talking about. They did die, but at least they died on their feet fighting. There were four trapped without fire shelters because we didn’t carry fire shelters then even thought the Chief of the USFS had ordered that hotshot crews carry them a decade earlier.
And once the fire, which was burning in nearly identical fuels but worse, actually much worse, in similar weather that included temperatures, RH and wind from a thunder cell and it was in early July. The slope was much, much steeper however, so that made everything worse for those four. Once they were literally on fire, one crewman yelled, “I’M ON FIRE and ran down slope directly into the flames, the crew boss yelled something the other two could not understand and he ran down into the flames as well.
A squad boss and another crewman stayed there and let themselves be burned over and of course they were badly burned and the crewman died after they (responding medevac which included Sector Boss Ted Putnam) said on the radio they were cutting his airway open with a pocket knife because his throat was so badly burned he couldn’t breathe and then he died while they were doing chest compressions.
The squad boss actually lived with very serious third degree burns over most of his body. Now, here is some food for thought. The one who lived was laying a few inches lower than the one who died. The GMIHC deployed on a small rise or bench in the canyon…don’t do that, get as low as you can. You can see the rise the GMIHC deployed on in the photos and Willis said they picked that rise to deploy on because it was the best place but then again…Willis picked a tennis court as a safety zone for quite a few firefighters under his “command.”
Now, here it the real punch line…in fuels that were worse, heavier and drier, on a slope that was much, much steeper, the crew boss was able to run 1100 yards before he died. The crewman did not make it quite that far but he almost did. And they ran directly into the flames. So…
I contacted my contact-
let you know when I know; k.
Ah..so you know people who know…people. Very cool. I wish I had some people. I would call them up and chit chat with them. On second thought, I did enough chit chatting to last me a life time when that was my job. Hey now…I can be personable if it helps me get the job done. I have done that lots of times with lots of people I did not respect or like.
no silly- I told you down below Andrew Williams who helped do Sonny’s defensible space did show photos of an African American on the YHF and maybe he knows- maybe there was more than one because he had one on his prison crew; Lewis-
Well…if I did have people, I would have my people contact you people and perhaps we could do lunch?
lunch…nah…how about some 50bmg or old WWII shooting fun 🙂
or we can do a civil war re-enactment— I am the South looking for Cajuns 🙂
And for all of the naysayers out there like Bill Gabbert, I want to know that information NOT for the purpose of “outing” the guy.
Once I know who is, I simply want to ask him if there was a Hail Mary Plan and if so, what was it and how was it pitched to Eric Marsh that caused him to do something as reckless as he did.
That will not exonerate either Marsh or Steed, but it will help me UNDERSTAND why they did what they did. And I want to understand all of the contributing factors that led up to the greatest blunder in the history of wildland firefighting.
My book will not be complete without it and at this point…it is all about my book because that is where I am going to explain to future generations of widland firefighters why this happened in the hope that it helps to make sure it never happens again.
I think of the book I may finish writing now as the biggest case report I will ever assemble in my life pertaining to the biggest and most important investigation of my life.
Maybe that is why the Great Creator has not yet called me home and what the Creator has been preparing me for my whole life? I might be an instrument in God’s hands and this is my path to redemption to atone for all of my past sins and maybe a few future ones. Spooky thoughts…huh?
So help me go home with my head held high to drink (even though I don;t drink, maybe I will start) with my people in the great hall of Valhalla. Maybe I can get that whole Killed In Battle Special Exemption & Waiver I have mentioned before. Wait…is that mixing Christianity with Norse Paganism? Frankly my dear, I don’t give a damn (Gone With the Wind).
Gary’s book is one book I will read and put on my non fiction shelf. I was also happy to see David Turbyfill posting–he give us an honest assessment of people and things he observed on his staff ride. The FS and comrades are still dodging the truth and after all we see in the media I am beginning to believe they have convinced themselves of their own bullshit.
I wondered if one of the stooges that WTKTT in the photo was Donut. He certainly does not qualify to represent the 19–though I thing he might do for the bosses of the 17. They were approximately as knowledgeable as he was about common sense as well as the safety rules that Donut proved they knew little about.
I think the firefighting profession wastes its breath using him as a sounding board for their actions. Maybe he is their only hope to cover their own actions. After all if you keep him in the lime light then their insufficient actions at fire fighting tactics and safety conformance led to the deaths of the 17 and that is no error in number. Steed and Marsh are culpable along with the whole mess of bosses and three local fire departments. Had they also followed the safety rules instead of orders from headquarters, they and their men would be alive today. So also had the local fire departments taken quick action in a known emergency situation that fire would never have gotten out of hand:;therefore, the hybrid GMHS crew would also be alive. So spread the blame, it does not only belong to Steed and Marsh, though they shoulder the bulk of this tragedy.
I wondered how Gary came up with 16.2 acres as a propler safety zone. That sounds about right with the intense heat that manzanita gave off that day. Exfoliatijng boulders and cactus exploding and a burn of of thick brush that left nothing but moon scape where littered cans of aluminum menlted gave proof of the intensity of the fire.
I would estimate about 5 acres of boulders near where they were. Too bad wild land fire fighters are excluded from going into the boulderfield since they could see what places they could have gotten to save their lives. I have been in that particular boulderfield and do know they had places that many men could have gotten under huge boulders in cave like areas that would have shielded them from the fire. Gary mentioned the guy that survived in the Battlement fire?, was only inches lower than the partner that died and that likely saved him. In the boulders they would have been several feet lower than the surface–5-6 ft. in some places. Joy to this day complains that she had to see a chiropractor because of our descent though boulders on the West side of the Weavers. I did not but the physical make up of those men was better than mine due to my age–so definitely they could and would have survived had they only that little knowledge.
This is one of the reasons it iirks me that that area is restricted. Look at the lessons to be learned by new wild land fire fighters by visiting that spot and observing the many errors committed by those 19 GMHS that ultimately killed them. Just to know you can have bosses that are real fuck ups that can and will get you killed is important. The idea that knowing the rules and common sense application when the shit hits the fan would be instilled into them in an emotional way by being on the site and actually seeing and feeling the intensity of their last moments caused by those errors. This pays respect to those men so their deaths are not in vain. It is exactly what they would want so that the new man can know what will keep him/her alive.
some misspelling there–did not notice until I re read–I used to win spelling bees ==so correct me –but I do know better than dropping off in a basin that would likely kill me and my hiking partner.
**
** BRENDAN MCDONOUGH TOLD AUTHOR KYLE DICKMAN HE HEARD
** ERIC MARSH ORDER JESSE STEED TO “LEAVE THE SAFE BLACK”
** BEFORE HE EVER TOLD DARRELL WILLIS
Well… it’s going to be a CRAZY week with ( starting tomorrow ) the general release of the Fernanda Santos Yarnell book… and then immediately followed by the general release of Brendan McDonough’s own Yarnell book.
I was ( obviously ) not someone who had access to any kind of pre-release copy of either book ( like Bill Gabbert did over at Wildfire Today )… so I have NOT had a chance to actually read either one.
All I have had access to is what is being reveleaed in the ‘pre-release’ reviews that have been hitting the airwaves this week… and whatever ‘content’ has been revealed that way.
So it’s hard to say how MUCH of a ‘hit’ the TRUTH is going to take this week, as the full text of these books is revealed… but from what I’ve read so far… it’s not going to be pretty.
Example: I think Bill Gabbert CAN be trusted when he says the following three statements from Brendan McDonough actually ARE in his book…
Wildfire Today ( Bill Gabbert )
Article Title: Lone survivor from Yarnell Hill Fire publishes book
Published: April 25, 2016
http://wildfiretoday.com/2016/04/25/lone-survivor-from-yarnell-hill-fire-publishes-book/
From Bill Gabbert’s article…
————————————————————————————-
Mr. McDonough wrote in the book:
“I had no idea they had moved out of the black. Neither did anyone else.
The focus was on saving Yarnell and not getting burned up ourselves.”
————————————————————————————-
Compare THAT with what Brendan himself said in his previous interview with Bill Gabbert back in August of 2015… which is here…
http://wildfiretoday.com/2015/08/31/the-yarnell-hill-fire-lone-survivor-interview-with-brendan-mcdonough/
In THAT interview… Bill Gabbert reported…
————————————————————————————–
Brendan said that he didn’t hear a radio conversation between the two about WHY the crew left the black. He DID hear, though, a discussion about Marsh going on ahead toward the ranch to make sure the route was good, and Marsh later told Steed they should make their way down there.”
————————————————————————————–
So just on this one point… Brendan has now (apparently) ‘changed’ his ‘story’ from…
“He DID hear, though, a discussion about Marsh going on ahead toward the ranch…”
“…and Marsh later told Steed they should make their way down there.”
To ( in his own ‘new’ book )…
“I had no idea they had moved out of the black. Neither did anyone else.”
Other than the obvious fact that this totally contradicts what Brendan apparently told Mr. Gabbert back in August of 2015 ( and he is now making Mr. Gabbert look like a fool )… this ‘new’ statement from Brendan basically now says that two different prominent Prescott citizens, Prescott City Attorney ( Jon Paladini ) AND the former Prescott Wildland Division Chief ( Darell Willis ) are both LIARS with regards to what went down over Brendan’s effort to ‘get something off his chest’… which resulted in the Jon Paladini article published on April 3, 2015.
But what is even MORE important to NOTE here is that even with all the hullabaloo over who was or wasn’t relaying the right information between McDonough, Willis and Paladini…
…the FACT is that this ‘story’ that was told by Prescott City Attorney Jon Paladini was basically also CONFIRMED by former Hotshot and author Kyle Dickman.
When Kyle Dickman’s book “On the Burning Edge” was published just about 1 month after that Jon Paladini article had appeared reporting that Brendan heard Eric Marsh and Jesse Steed ‘arguing’ and then Marsh just basically ORDERED Steed to leave the safe black and bring the men down to the Boulder Springs Ranch… Kyle Dickman’s book told basically the SAME STORY… and SPECIFICALLY said that the source of that information WAS, in fact, Brendan McDonough.
So Brendan McDonough is now not only calling Prescott City Attorney Jon Paladini and former Prescott Wildland Division Chief Darrell Willis LIARS… Brendan McDonough is now also calling former Hotshot and author Kyle Dickman a LIAR, as well.
And before someone says… “Well… since the Dickman book came out 1 month after the Paladini account appeared in the press… maybe Dickman just added that ‘story’ to his book based on what Paladini reported on April 3″…
…my pre-response is… NOT POSSIBLE.
While it IS true that Prescott City Attorney Jon Paladini’s ‘account’ of what McDonough told Willis came out in a public article on April 3, 2015… and Kyle Dickman’s book was not available for general sale until about 1 month later, on March 5, 2015… it is also a FACT that Dickman’s book had ALREADY ‘gone to print’ even BEFORE the Paladini account ever appeared in any public article.
There are PHOTOS posted on Kyle Dickman’s own PUBLIC ‘Twitter’ feed of his ‘new book’ having already been ‘printed’ and available as pre-release copies as early as March 13, 2015… almost a full month BEFORE the Paladini ‘account’ ever appeared in public.
And if there were already ‘printed’ copies of the book appearing circa March 13, 2015, then you can bet the actual ‘manuscript’ had to have been fully completed LONG before that date.
So it is NOT POSSIBLE that Kyle Dickman could have just ‘added’ almost the ‘identical’ account to his book as related by Paladini just because of the appearance of Paladini’s account.
In his ‘credits’… Kyle Dickman SPECIFICALLY says that HIS account of Brendan hearing Marsh and Steed ‘discussing their options’… and then Marsh termintating the discussion with an ORDER… came DIRECTLY from McDonough himself while Dickman had full access to him and was actually WRITING that chapter back in late 2014.
And then there is this in Dickman’s ‘Chapter sources’ section, proving that everything Dickman wrote about Marsh and Steed ‘discussing their options’ to leave the black had, in fact, come straight from McDonough…
Here is exactly what Kyle Dickman said in his ‘sources’ section regarding his own published account…
——————————————————————————-
McDonough provided the details of Marsh and Steed’s radio conversation
about whether to leave the safety of the black.
——————————————————————————-
And ( for the sake of completeness, and in case some have never seen it ) here is exactly what Kyle Dickman published in his book…
** From page 220 of Kyle Dickman’s book “On the Burning Edge”…
This part of Dickman’s narrative ‘picks up’ at the moment ( 3:47 PM ) when Blue Ridge Hotshots Superintendent Brian Frisby has just dropped Brendan off at the spot where the GM Superintendent and Chase trucks has been parked that morning. Frisby now ‘takes off’ to the south in the BR Polaris Ranger UTV to ‘pick up’ BR Captain Trueheart Brown and bring him BACK to that point to help Brendan drive the 2 GM vehicles away from that location.
Kyle Dickman wrote…
———————————————————————————————
As Frisby sped off toward Blue Ridge, Donut, out of danger for the time being, threw his Pulaski and gear in the back of Marsh’s superintendent truck. He climbed into the cab, turned on the A/C, and switched the radio to Granite Mountain’s crew net.
On the radio, Donut could hear Marsh and Steed discussing whether the crew should stay in the black or come up with a plan to move.
Marsh said he was scouting the escape route: the two track that ran along the top of the ridge to Glen Ilah and the Helms’ place.
Staying put in the black was obviously the safest option, but it also meant agreeing to be spectators to the macabre show unfolding beneath them. The alternative was for Granite Mountain to follow the ridge out to their escape route and to the safety zone at the Helms’ place.
It was an appealing option. The Helms’ place would put the hotshots in a better position from which to reengage the fire. With all its defensible space, the ranch was not under threat, and if they could wait out the firestorm there, the crew would be a short walk away from Glen Ilah, where they could help homeowners whose lives were soon to go up in flames. Moving Granite Mountain was also the type of tactical decision that might surprise and impress Abel and the incident commanders. Granite Mountain had been sidelined on the fire’s cold heel all day. But when the flames swept through Yarnell, Abel and Cordes would immediately need all the help they could find. For Granite Mountain to emerge unexpectedly into the action, just minutes after the fire had torn through Yarnell, would be a slick move– a coup that could win an ambitious division accolades with the incident management team or a recently absent superintendent the admiration of his unfamiliar crew.
But moving Granite Mountain to the Helms’ place came with substantial risks.
It compromised many of the Ten and Eighteen that both Marsh and Steed had memorized:
Weather is getting hotter and drier.
Wind increases and/or changes direction.
Terrain and fuels make escape to safety zones difficult.
Uburned fuel between you and the fire.
The safety zone was more than a mile and a half away from the crew, and as soon as the hotshots left the safety of the black, a sea of dry chaparral would lie between the men and the fire.
Steed and Marsh considered the rules but found ways to justify ignoring the Ten and Eighteen.
From the escape route along the ridge, the hotshots had an expansive view of the fire’s spread. If the fire got too close, they could always bail off the south, southwest, or west side of the Weavers into the thinner fuels in the desert below.
Ultimately the choice was Marsh’s, and the ORDERS Donut heard him deliver were clear: “Move the crew along the escape route”.
If Steed or anybody else questioned his decision, they did so discreetly, because on the crew’s radio channel, nobody openly disagreed with Marsh.
—————————————————————————————————
Once again… here is EXACTLY what Kyle Dickman published…
“…the ORDERS Donut HEARD him ( Eric Marsh ) deliver were CLEAR”.
And ( once again ) here is EXACTLY what Kyle Dickman says the SOURCE of this statement was in his own ‘credits’ section at the back of his book…
——————————————————————————-
McDonough provided the details of Marsh and Steed’s radio conversation
about whether to leave the safety of the black.
——————————————————————————-
There is no room for doubt, there, that author Kyle Dickman was faithfully reporting exactly what Brendan McDonough TOLD him he actually HEARD during one of their ( many ) long interviews.
There is NO WAY that Kyle Dickman would have ‘made that up’, and would have been specifically saying that ‘Donut HEARD the ORDERS’… unless that is what Brendan told him.
So this ‘account’ coming from Kyle Dickman ( as per testimony to HIM direct from Brendan McDonough ) has ALWAYS ‘matched’ exactly what Prescott City Attorney Jon Paladini reported he had heard from McDonough ( via Willis ) on April 3, 2013.
It is actually very likely that the REASON Brendan McDonough originally decided to go to Darrell Willis to trying and ( quoting Willis ) “get something off his chest” was because it was AFTER he had already imparted the same information to author Kyle Dickman… and Brendan now KNEW that information WAS going to be ‘published’ exactly the way he told it to Kyle Dickman.
So if Brendan is really NOW saying ( in his ‘new’ book )…
“I had no idea they had moved out of the black. Neither did anyone else.”
…then he is calling a LOT of ‘prominent’ citizens who value their OWN integrity and reputations LIARS… and he’s going to have to answer for that.
Correction for above. I typed ‘March’ in a place I should have typed ‘May’.
The ‘Paladini’ account was first published on April 3, 2015.
Kyle Dickman’s book became available for general purchase on May 5, 2015 ( not March ).
But pre-release printed copies of Dickman’s book were circulating on March 13, 2015.
So the paragraph above SHOULD have read like this…
———————————————————————-
While it IS true that Prescott City Attorney Jon Paladini’s ‘account’ of what McDonough told Willis came out in a public article on April 3, 2015… and Kyle Dickman’s book was not available for general sale until about 1 month later, on May 5, 2015… it is also a FACT that Dickman’s book had ALREADY ‘gone to print’ even BEFORE the Paladini account ever appeared in any public article. Pre-release copies were available circa March 13, 2015, a full month BEFORE the Paladini ‘account’ was first published.
———————————————————————-
Followup…
** PROOF THAT KYLE DICKMAN’S BOOK WAS ALREADY PRINTED AS
** EARLY AS MARCH 13, 2015, BEFORE THE PALADINI ACCOUNT APPEARED
On March 13, 2015… a photo a fully printed ‘pre-release copy’ of his soon-to-be-released
book “On the Burning Edge” was posted on Kyle Dickman’s PUBLIC ‘Twitter’ feed.
That means the book was already fully finalized and pre-release copies were already
being printed as early as March 13, 2015… BEFORE the story about what Prescott City Attorney Jon Paladini would say ( on April 3, 2015 ) about what Brendan had told Darrell Willis.
The photo of a ‘finished’ pre-release copy of the book was ‘retweeted’ by Kyle Dickman onto his own ‘Twitter’ feed after it had been posted to ‘Twitter’ by Stayton Bonner ( Senior Editor for Rolling Stone Magazine ) who had, apparently, just received this ‘pre-release’ copy of the book from Publicity Manager Greg Kubie at Penguin, Random House… the publishers for Dickman’s soon-to-be-released book.
In that actual photo of a ‘finished copy’ of the book… a label on the book’s cover says…
GREG KUBIE, Publicity Manager
GregKubie (at) PenguinRandomHouse.com or 212.782.9038
Here is a direct link to that photo of the ‘finished’ book which appeared on Kyle Dickman’s PUBLIC Twitter feed on March 13, 2015…
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CAAI9AtW4AEyOgj.jpg:large
That means there is NO WAY that Kyle Dickman could have possibly reacted to the ‘Jon Paladini’ story and gone back and ‘inserted’ any of that information in his book.
The fact that Dickman was essentially reporting the SAME ‘story’ ( as told to HIM by Brendan ) in his ‘book’ means that Dickman received that ‘same information’ from Brendan LONG before the Jon Paladini account first appeared in the press.
Here is a link to Kyle Dickman’s actual PUBLIC ‘Twitter’ feed, where the photo above appeared on March 13, 2015.
https://twitter.com/kyledickman
I do want to make one more point before I go back on sabbatical, which is where I belong, to write some more on my book. My tell-all book isn’t going to write itself. I know I don’t belong in normal society, that’s why I am mostly a recluse (which I have readily admitted) although I did force myself to join the search and rescue unit up here to see if I can help some dumb ass with all of the toys I don’t own (I am anti-materialistic).
There is no question in my mind that Eric Marsh was indeed a bright star who had tremendous abilities and even more potential. He started that wildland fire fighting academy in his LIVING ROOM. And this year alone, I think I read it trained 800 or 900 hundred students. Do I have that number right? In any case, I paid to have my own son attend that academy. I hope everyone understands what an accomplishment that is.
That feat alone is more than I have done with my life, and I have had years with nothing else to do since I retired. That fire academy is a BIG DEAL…nationally. I can’t explain how somebody with that kind of natural ability could end up like he did. That is just one more reason this terrible situation is so hard to understand and come to terms with.
And Bob is right about one thing for sure (and probably several others) and I have admitted this before on this blog. He is much smarter than me; his house is paid for and I rent mine. Being a tumbleweed came at a high price and it wasn’t worth it…FYI. Starting over on a mortgage every few years never gets you anywhere. If you are in a good place for your family and you like your job…stay there by all means. The promotions aren’t worth it in the long run, especially with the bullshit that comes with them.
Question Gary before you go on sabbatical… This LIVING ROOM start that now has so many…I wish the ex of Eric could talk more on topic how long D. Steinbrink the retired woodland fire chief was a part in Eric’s life and was he a neighbor to him when this living room start began and how much was the leadership of this man or was their something bigger puppeteering in that beginning…I would buy the book if an honest book came out on the birth of the gmhs and it’s completed journey. Gary…have a great time. Donut was on ABC 15 today. He said some may not like his movie and book but it’s all part of the grief and healing…you want to see the video anyone than email me and I will forward it.
I don’t know any of those things. I thought Marsh started it by himself in his living room and it grew to where it is at today. Which like I said, is pretty impressive no matter how you look at it.
And yes, I got the email with the clips of Mr. McDonough talking the talk. Like I said the other day, he is pretty impressive too, he has really taken his gig and run with it. I have to give credit where credit is due.
Mr. McDonough really looked sharp with his homeless man beard shaved off his baby face and his new sport coat and tie….didn’t he? I kept waiting for that TV reporter to ask him, “That’s too bad that you almost ate your gun and stuff… but tells us… have you actually MET Josh Brolin yet?”
Reply to Gary Olson post on May 2, 2016 at 11:24 pm
>> Gary Olson said…
>>
>> Mr. McDonough really looked sharp with his homeless man
>> beard shaved off his baby face and his new sport coat
>> and tie….didn’t he? I kept waiting for that TV reporter to ask
>> him, “That’s too bad that you almost ate your gun and
>> stuff… but tells us… have you actually MET Josh Brolin yet?”
Yep. It’s gonna be a ‘circus’ this week.
Some of the ‘tag lines’ for some of the articles appearing actually DO say things like “Sole Survivor releases book… but HEY!… did you know there’s also gonna be a MOVIE!”.
So yea… expect some of the ‘talking heads to ask Brendan this week…
“Is Josh Brolin really a short guy, like they say?”
Josh is just a person. To me he is an ol surfing punk grown up and his deceased mom would be hurt over some areas he led life and if I ever so see him again I will tell him what that is…he knows…But I ain’t star struck except by the nightly skies…today is filming of the commercial
**
** WATERING DOWN THE NEWS
Well… a ‘watered down’ version of what the Prescott Daily Courier published regarding the ‘Question and Answer’ session and the ‘Family Staff Ride’ is now ‘going viral’ out in the MSM.
Most outlets are just reprinting the ‘watered down’ version that the Associated Press ( AP ) came up with soon after the Daily Courier published their full article at this link…
The Prescott Daily Courier
Article Title: Families, officials walk in final footsteps of the Hotshots
Posted: Friday, April 29, 2016 4:47 pm | Updated: 5:15 pm, Fri Apr 29, 2016.
http://dcourier.com/news/2016/apr/29/families-officials-walk-final-footsteps-hotshots/
And here is (now) the ‘totality’ of the Associated Press ‘copy’ that is being reprinted just about everywhere at the moment.
Absolutely no mention of the critical ‘Question and Answer’ session that was also held ‘in secret’ back on February 5, 2016… and how some family members REFUSED to participate because Arizona Forestry couldn’t even arrange for many of the key witnesses and participants to even BE there to answer the families ‘questions’… as was mandated by the wrongful death settlement(s).
Absolutely no mention of the ‘disappointment’ in BOTH the Court-mandated ‘Question and Answer’ session AND the dog-and-pony-show ‘Staff Ride’ ( full of factual ERRORS ) that has already been expressed by OTHER ‘Family Members’ and plaintiffs in the original 12 ‘wrongful death’ lawsuits.
All the MSM / AP is ‘printing’ is this ‘chop down’ of the original article…
——————————————————————————————
Associated Press
PRESCOTT, Ariz. (AP) — Family members of 19 firefighters killed in a 2013 Arizona wildfire and fire officials have walked the Hotshots’ final route in an effort to learn how to avoid such deaths in the future.
The walk was part of the Arizona Forestry Divisions’ “staff ride” of the fire, or an all-day hike and multi-stop exercise intended to put participants in the place of people fighting the fire as a learning tool, The Daily Courier reported (http://bit.ly/1SDdXwJ).
Click Here
The families took part in the walk as part of a wrongful death lawsuit filed after the 19 firefighters died on June 30, 2013 while fighting the Yarnell Hill Fire. The staff ride in itself was also part of the lawsuit settlement.
Tom Ashcraft, whose son Andrew died in the fire, said the April 4-5 trek helped him understand why his son died and why more wasn’t done to prevent it such as dropping fire retardant.
“I heard what specific challenges they were facing – weather, wind, and information, which was sporadic,” Ashcraft said. “With the wind pushing into that box canyon, (the retardant) probably would have never reached the ground.”
Arizona State Forester Jeff Whitney said the staff ride process has been ongoing for months and is expected to wrap up this summer. The ride is a multi-phase process to study the fire. Similar rides usually take eight to 10 years to complete, putting the Yarnell Hill exercise well ahead of the norm.
Whitney said the staff ride is not looking to investigate what went wrong during the Yarnell Hill fire, but instead is meant to be informative about what decisions were made at that time.
“It’s important that we get some clarity around what occurred there,” Whitney said. “And it’s important that we try to do everything we possibly can to equip our current and future fire managers with more information, so they’re better able to do situation awareness and opportunity recognition.”
Ashcraft said his time with the staff ride is helping him process his son’s death.
“I’m very, very thankful I went,” he said. “It was a turning point in my own healing process.”
———————————————————————————-
And am I the only one wondering how people who actually CALL themselves ‘journalists’ have their heads so far up their asses that they let ANYONE get away with the following “Speaking out of both sides of one’s mouth” stuff on the part of Arizona Forester Jeff Whitney?…
“It’s IMPORTANT that we get some CLARITY around what occurred there,”
“The staff ride is NOT looking to investigate what went wrong during the Yarnell Hill fire,”
Unbelievable.
( Not unbelievable that Mr. Company Man “I can talk out of both sides of my mouth AND my ass at the same time… watch me!” Jeff Whitney would THINK he could get away with shit like that … but unbelievable that anyone interviewing him would LET him ).
Followup…
A lot of interesting PUBLIC ‘comments’ have been appearing on that recent Prescott Daily Courier article regarding the ‘secret’ Question/Answer day that took place back on February 5, 2016, and the recent ‘Family Staff Ride’.
Apparently even in ‘Everybody’s Home Town’ ( good ‘ol Prescott, Arizona ) opinions are still ‘mixed’ about whether even Eric Marsh was ‘ordered’ to bring Granite Mountain ‘out of the safe black’.
That DC article is here…
http://dcourier.com/news/2016/apr/29/families-officials-walk-final-footsteps-hotshots/
And in case some of them suddenly ‘disappear’… here are a few of those
interesting PUBLIC comments that have been posted…
———————————————————————
Antinomies – 3 days, 2 hours ago
All firemen are demi-gods who can do no wrong and should be worshipped and glorified as better than mere mortals.
Rcadya – 2 days, 23 hours ago
HDE: Apparently it was not their fault. Somebody (?) had them move from safe clear ground to an area where there was a lot of fuel. They followed directions. We will probably never know the truth.
BaloneyBob – 2 days, 8 hours ago
The loss of our friends in this unfortunate wreck-less tragedy is horrific.
The responsible shall one day answer for this.
Realist – 2 days, 7 hours ago
Rcayda, orders to leave the black didn’t come from anyone other than the Sup and Captain of the crew. They made an error in judgement. Unfortunately, that error brought this to where it is today. This is a horrible situation. When a tragedy happens, survivors are always looking for someone to blame. Someone has to be accountable. Sadly, those that are accountable for the decision are no longer around to explain the reasons behind the decision.
fredlu1 – 2 days, 4 hours ago
I agree with REALIST. The blame, unfortunately, lies with the crew. For whatever reason, they made a fatal decision. You can blame the radios, the weather, God, and all the agencies that were involved in the fire. Truth hurts sometimes.
—————————————————————————–
And just about 4 hours ago… someone ‘joined’ the ongoing conversation over there at the Prescott Daily Courier who, apparently, has actually already participated in one of the THREE ‘Staff Rides’ ( Alpha, Beta or Charlie ) that have already ‘gone down’…
—————————————————————————
LaserDave – 3 hours, 55 minutes ago
Realist, Fredlu 1, PrescottLady
“Orders to leave the black didn’t come from anyone other than the Sup and Captain of the crew. They made an error in judgement. I agree with REALIST. The blame, unfortunately, lies with the crew. proof of this is the low settlement amount. if there had been any compelling evidence of CAUSATIVE fault on the part of others, the settlements would have been much higher.”
While at this time there are not any or anyone stepping up to say they “were Ordered” out of the black. What we do know now after going on the SR is that John Burnfield “Bravo 33” Did have other communications with Eric Marsh while he was near BSR.
Responsibilities of Wildland Fire Supervisors; Did overhead at Yarnell Hill Fire 2013 exhibit or conduct themselves in a appropriate manner? Supervision of other firefighters includes the following tasks: • Maintain accountability of assigned personnel’s exact location and general welfare at all times, especially during incident operations.
Low Settlement Amount; Had NOTHING to do with compelling evidence, and ALL to do with Arizona Workmen’s Compensation Laws. The State of Arizona always had the winning hand, this was only a face saving gesture to the Families and the Plaintiff Attorneys.
I am ready to stand and Hear that crew is completely at fault as soon as all you know the truth comes forward in a meaningful way!!!
——————————————————————-
I just ran across an interesting comment from Iron Bob Powers in 2014. I wish I would have had this comment to point to when Iron Bob and I were going round and round a few weeks ago about how he was better than ever after he retired from the USFS and went on to work in law enforcement for another 16 (?) years. The Bob I knew and respected so much used to make sense.
http://www.investigativemedia.com/chapter-iv-comments/#comment-10813
Well…I guess I can post it for you, seeing how WTKTT goes to so much trouble for all of us.
Bob Powers says
FEBRUARY 12, 2014 AT 2:25 PM
Mike –I can guarantee you that I was ready to retire at 50.
When I hit my 40’s I no longer was line overhead. I was still healthy as to day but 16 hour shifts and hiking mountains were getting old. As my Dr. always told me I did not take very good care of my body in the past. That’s also why it is mandatory age 55 retirement for wild Land Fire Fighters, or 50 with 25 years. At 50 I had 33 years. No 50 is not the new 30 maybe for a small few.
No 50 is still 50
Yes I was in other Fire Jobs.
Air attack, Equipment manager, Supervisory Dispatcher/De-mobe Dispatcher.
Quote– I was Still Healthy as today.
I was ready to retire at 50 not because of my health but because I was Frustrated and fed up with the changes in the Forest service.
So you are still banging on you are to old to work at 50, 60, etc.
No I enjoyed my change in Carrier and my health held out till I hit 68.
END OF STORY—————
No…Bob I am banging on you because I am the Jackkhammer. Most of the people I start banging on eventually if not sooner get a thousand yard stare on their otherwise blank faces as they ask themselves, “Why did I ever start fucking with this guy, he just doesn’t quit.” That’s why they called me the Jackhammer. It is NOT arrogance on my part, it is a fact. Why the fuck do you think they made me a hotshot crew boss (Superintendent) at the age of 23 in a hyper hotshot program on steroids that was more military than the military at the time? Because I am a NICE guy and I like to make friends and friends are the most important thing in the world to me? No…they did it because I get the job done, no matter what. And right now one of my jobs it to prove you wrong that all of those burned out fucksticks who were running the Yarnell Hill Fire fucked up big time because they couldn’t wrap their fucking heads around what was happening because they hadn’t ever seen a fire do that before. And do you know what is wrong with that…among a whole list of things that were wrong with that (just wait until my fucking book comes out and I will give you the complete list), their cognitive skills were NOT hitting on all of the cylinders just like yours aren’t or you wouldn’t say so many stupid things. And just like mine aren’t or I would have been back in Arizona months ago and I would have put this bitch down a long time ago. Whoops…got distracted again. The biggest problem with what happened is there is there is NO accountability for those needledick bugfuckers because they are a bunch of retired has beens, they have their slice of pie,they don’t even work for anybody and they don’t have to in order to eat or pay the bills or feed their kids. They fight fire because they are bored and they want to buy toys or go on ocean cruises, not because they have to…so they get to say, NO, we are NOT even showing up when the hard questions are going to get asked because THEY DON’T HAVE TO and nobody can make them which means there is even less ACCOUNTABILITY in a system that almost no accountability in the first place.
BEGINNING OF STORY—-I will TELL YOU when I am DONE!
Oh…and one more thing WTKTT, because I am a trained investigator and I am That Guy I am willing to tell you who the most likely candidate who spoke like a Cajun with a Louisiana accent, which was probably your politically correct way of saying he talked like an African American, he is the black guy (one of about 3 black guys fighting wildfire in the U.S. outside of Region 8) in the photo of all (or many, or some) of the overhead who fought that cursed Yarnell Hill Fire in that God (or imaginary friend as you like to call the Great Creator) Forsaken corner of hillbilly hell, end of the road collection of desert rats (no offense Sonny, I have been a desert rat myself and right now I am a tree squirrel), retirees and people who live on the fringes of the rest of society because they can’t cope with how fucked up this world is or they are felons and child molesters…either one.
So…ask what that guy’s name is and then ask him what the fuck he knows about who Eric Marsh was kissing up to so bad he killed his entire crew because of the chance he had to make them happy and give a glowing report back to the city fathers of that shit hole they call Prescott…Everybody’s Home Town so he could keep his dream alive, get promoted and not lose his job and crew to the budget ax so he lost his life AND his crew to that bitch (non-gender specific) of a fire.
Fuck it…I’m going back to bed and after I wake up again I am going Jeeping or maybe ATV riding in the Capitol Forest that surrounds half of this beautiful emerald city on the Puget Sound because I am retired just like most of the Yarnell Hill Fire team and I don’t answer to anybody…except my dear wife and she is asleep right now because she worked last night and she doesn’t give a fuck what I do on Saturdays…wait…what day is today? Oh…yeah….it’s SATURDAY!
Sorry you got to old at 55.
Some people do that and others keep on trucking.
I will say one more time before you were out of Diapers Many Wild Land Fire FMO’s in the 60’s were not retiring until they were 65 and they were all great teachers Maybe That’s what’s wrong today there are no hard tough Supervisors to teach the Kids the right way to do the Job. I owe my carrier to FMO Burt Hutichison he Hired me in 1962 and retired in 1967 at the young age of 65.
Well…I think everybody knows why Bob was only a hotshot for a couple of years and never made it to crew boss. He is a very SLOW learner.
When the old time FMO made me a hotshot crew boss he took for a ride in his 4×4 Dodge pickup truck to inspect his district. All of those old time USFS FMO’s felt the most comfortable in their 4×4’s driving through their districts.
I never applied for the job because it was never advertised, they ASKED me to take over the crew because they needed me to. I would never have applied for it.
In fact, the only job I ever really applied for was to work on the Coconino and not as a hotshot. That is how people really get ahead the government. Job applications are for the nobody’s who just take a shot in the dark hoping they hit something. Everybody that moves up is hand selected and they usually don’t even know they are being evaluated for their next job. That’s how it works.
I would never have thought I could have done the job, but I proved myself wrong after a sever year run…and then they asked me to take on a lot more responsibility of running the entire Interagency Zone Dispatch Center.
That was the beginning of my arrogance…when the USFS put on top of one of their hotshot crew boss pedestals. It was a very fine view from up there. When the hotshot crew boss walked into a room…everybody knew it.
I have a question for the old Oak Grove Hotshot go to guy. Why don’t you just shut the fuck up because you disqualified yourself as a credible person when you said your friends are the most important thing in the world to you and not the job?
Nobody can tell me a fucking thing about being a hotshot. I experienced first hand one of the greatest disaster fire in wildland firefighter history, as a hotshot from the fire line.
The aftermath of that fire resulted in all wildland firefighters carrying fire shelters all of the time for all agencies in the entire country in addition to fire resistant trousers. I was a hotshot crew boss at 23 and started my own hotshot crew from scratch that still exists today. I saw and did it all…several times over.
Arrogant…yes…I earned that. I am now an old man who is going to ride my ATV like I stole it today in the Capitol Fores because it has been so sunny and nice for the last week here including today, I feel like I am back in Arizona except that it is beautiful around here and I don’t have to say, “Well…the desert really is nice, you just have to be in the right frame of mind when you experience it.”
And I have stopped in Bumfuck Idaho a few times to get gas, let’s see…you have flat farm land and prairie for as far as far as a crow can fly and you have the Snake River to go fishing in, other than that, you have the Snake River to go fishing in and if you get tired of that, you can go fishing in the Snake River.
The winners write the history books…and I won.
So…shut the fuck up old man, an an ex hotshot CREW BOSS is talking (or typing, it is a brave new world). I don’t have time to play any more with you today, I have to go load my quad up.
Well…actually I DO have time to play with you because today is Saturday, I just don’t want to because I got better things to do.
What are going to do today? Gum another bowl of oatmeal and then go fishin’ in the Snake?
Oh…and when I say I experienced everything as a hotshot more than once. That includes disaster fires since I was on the fire line as a hotshot CREW BOSS on the Ship Island Creek Fire.
If you check out my very cool trip down memory lane to a bitchin’ sound track you will see a photo of me eating dinner with MY hotshot crew on the saddle/helispot/spike camp where those two stupid ass overhead who were probably like Bob were burned over and one was killed because stupid fucking line overhead never even carry gloves because they don’t do any fucking work and he couldn’t hold down the edges of his fire shelter.
Memo to everyone: Don’t let Bob or anyone else impress you because they say they were in overhead positions. That is a code word for they probably don’t know what the fuck they are talking about or doing because they have pencil whipped quals and that is their first fire since they slid into that job four years ago.
Those two fucking genius’ on the Ship Island Creek Fire piled nylon packs and other toxic shit around them for a fire wall to hide behind!
Say Bob…why don’t you post some photos of you leasing YOUR CREW on a bad ass fire with some fucking flames. All firefighters take photos of bad ass fires they are on, or the next guy does. I showed you mine, show me yours.
http://ourfiregods.com/happyjackhotshots.html
You know how it is. If it isn’t on YouTube…it didn’t happen.
OK…I got my quad loaded and I have time for ONE more comment. But first…Bob are you getting senile? You learned a long time ago NOT to talk back to a hotshot crew boss didn’t you? NOBODY does that.
So…here is my comment for everyone who wants to know including the families our dead GMIHC. Even IF they would have had fire shelters that could have withstood convective (DIRECT) flames of 2000 degree or more…about half of them would have died anyway, it would just have taken longer. You don’t believe me? Go heat up a steel plate until it is glowing red hot and then see how long you can keep you hand on it. That is what it would have been like inside that kind of a fire shelter because about half of them didn’t even have their gloves on. That deployment site was NOT survivable for anyone in any kind of fire shelter a wildland firefighter can carry on the fire line. For one thing…they don’t come with a self contained breathing apparatus with oxygen like those pussies (non-gender specific) structural firefighters have their faces stuck into all of the time.
The decisioin to deply fire shelters in that place at that time was a death sentence…the only chance they had was to run somewhere…anywhere, but into the fucking flames like they did on the Battlement Creek Fire right after one of them screamed ”
I’M ON FIRE! And they would have had a better chance of survival because they might have come out of the other side, it wan’st a timber fire with heavy fuels for Christ’s Sake (please forgive me sweet baby JESUS). Those fucking kind of fires burn HOT burn they burn FAST.
YOU fucking people paid MILLIONS of dollars to train just me. And I am willing to tell you the truth…what the fuck is wrong with you. I KNOW what I am talking about.
I received a NATIONAL SERVICE WIDE award that was adopted nation wide by the entire U.S. FOREST SERVICE and as goes the USFS, so goes all wildland firefighting agencies and a big check for an employee that all wildland firefighters carry an extra pair of gloves (preferably with some heat resistant lining) after the Ship Island Creek Fire. I am like Donald Trump…I am fucking SMART and I went to the best schools. It was a gladiator school on the Mighty Coconino and I was a top student.
There should be a pouch for extra gloves in those fire shelters by now…fuck it’s been more than 30 years, isn’t that enough time for even the U.S.Forest Service and the NWCG to do something right…anything?
Why don’t you try taking off your line gear, getting that shelter out of that tight pouch, pulling on that red tap and getting that shelter out of the plastic cover, snapping it open like a bed sheet that has never been taken out of an air tight pouch and then crawling under it when your hands and fingers stopped working before you even started the process because your brain is sending all of your blood to your vital organs AND then see if you still have both of your gloves on or can even find them in the toxic smoke that has been blinding you and making it impossible to even breath since you started because you waited to fucking long to even start to crawl under that death shroud to DIE by being burned alive.
Fuck me silly and call me Sally! WAKE UP! And get this right!
I was not and still am not a camera picture taker.
I was to busy actually fighting Fires.
When I hit the Oak Grove Crew I was a Sector Boss. Asst. Superintendent. Listed as Crew Boss 1972/73.
Crew Boss/Engine Boss/ Sector Boss
All the Fires below
1964–1969–Crew Boss 22 Class E fires
1970–
Sycamore class E Angeles NF
James class E, Sanbernadeno
Waterman Class E, Sanbernadeno NF
Meyers Class E –Sanbernadeno NF
1971
Santayenes class E Los Padres
Bloomfield Class E Sequoia
Akens Class E Angeles
McGee Class E Inyo NF
1972/73 9 Class E’s
I could go on But you get the Idea I did not list all the A thru D Fires to many to count.
1974 thru 1990 Sector Boss/ Division Boss/ Air attack Boss Type 2 OPS and IC,
All the further you got was a fucking Crew Boss
You call that a carrier? I call it a dead end you could not handle smoke and called it quits.
You ever been on a Fire in the LA Basin during a smog alert in an inversion You would have been on Oxygen with your problems. The first requirement for Shelters in R5 was 1965.you were way behind the times.
Gat back on your Meds you are rambling again.
LIAR…the guy next to you was. EVERY wildland firefighter has photos of themselves fighting fire, you are nothing but a blow hard, wannabe and a LIAR!
It wasn’t too much of a dead end Bob. I ended up as a Supervisory Criminal Investigator (Senior Sage Brush Cop) working for the Washington D.C. office of my agency at the pay equivalent of a GS-15, I make more than $80,000 a year in retirement. What do you make…about $30,000. Money and status is how we measure success in this life…it sucks but that is the way it is.
And I had a Top Secret Security Clearance that had to be renewed every five years to keep my job. I wasn’t on, I have never been on meds, that line is getting old from one of my jokes two years ago…you fucking NOBODY. Pencil whipped quals…somebody like you killed the GMIHC.
OVERHEAD…nobody on a hotshot crew listens to OVERHEAD. You know that NUMBER TWO.
No Gary you are the Blow Hard.
We Took Pictures on Oak Grove with a FS Camera and they all went to the File Gov. Owned.
I had no reason to be a Movie Star.
Go Fuck your self———–
Iron Bob said, “Mike –I can guarantee you that I was ready to RETIRE at 50. (It was too much for me to keep up with) When I hit my 40’s I no longer was line overhead. (Couldn’t even work a do nothin’ overhead job in his 40’s) I was still healthy as to day but 16 hour shifts and hiking mountains were getting old. As my Dr. always told me I did not take very good care of my body in the past (He drank too much alcohol and he still does, that is what puts him to sleep at night, or in the afternoon, or right after his oatmeal). That’s also why it is mandatory age 55 retirement for wild Land Fire Fighters, or 50 with 25 years. (So he got a part time job playin” Barney Fife so he could buy toys and burn up a lot of free ammo) At 50 I had 33 years. No 50 is not the new 30 maybe for a small few. jBut not Bob, he couldn’t handle it so he was ready to retire at age 50).
Bob forgot who he is talking back to, I can prove he is a LIAR because he said he retired at 50 with 33 years. THAT MATH DOES NOT ADD UP.
The very most he could have had at 50 was 32 years and that is if he got hired on this eighteenth birthday…fucking LIAR! “Lyin’ Bob” they called him back in the day.
OK Gary I started in 1971 I retired in 1974.
33 years Fire Management nothing else.
I worked the summers of 71,72,73 and got picked up on appointment in April of 74..
Yes I was hired at 17 in 1961 Cal Fire.
I am in Gods country 3 hours from any place that you want to Hunt Fish or Trail Ride. I chose to stay here at a GS 9 and have never regretted it
Ya my FS Retirement is $40.000 but then I own my house and all my vehicles so what I get is all mine not the banks. Oh ya I get another $16,000 SS.
Again you were nothing but a grunt Fire Fighter for what 12 years or dose that include your 2 or 3 years in the Dispatch.
You are so full of shit it is flowing out on this IM blog.
Adios MF——————–
Wops Started in 1961 retired in 1994
You ARE a VERY slow learner. You can’t insult me by calling me nothing but a grunt or a ground pounder. How many times have I said on this blog how PROUD I am that is all I ever was? That is all I wanted to be.
And no, I started on the Prescott in 1974 and left the USFS in late 1988. So…that was I was 1 season as a district WF, 10 seasons as a hotshot and four years not in dispatch…as The Forest Dispatcher and Coordinator of the Interagency fire operations center…try to keep up old man.
Tell you what…we can settle this by me buying you your very own bottle of…what do you drink?
Thunderbird? You drink anything with an alcohol content don’t you?
Yep…a ground pounder and a grunt was all I ever wanted to be, but it turned out God had different plans for me too, so…God loved me more or less than the crew?
Wait…I can’t remember how this goes…ask your bastard son the next time the two of you are chatting like girlfriends on your phones to check with Willis to find out if God loved me because he made me have a great career or didn’t love me as much because he didn’t call me home to be with him a few decades ago.
In fact…I am still here and I never got to go ride my ATV today, maybe that was part of God’s Plan as well, because I might have wrapped myself around one of these trees up here?
That’s it Bob, you were an instrument in God’s hands today, you saved me so I can both ride and blog another day. Thank you.
And you keep telling me goodbye but you never leave…so WTF…Over?
We can always look at the bright side. The lines are lit up, the word is out, Iron Man Bob and Ground Pounder Gary are going at it again on the blog. The hits will be way up today. 🙂
Reply to Gary Olson post on May 2, 2016 at 9:54 am
>> Gary Olson said…
>>
>> Oh…and one more thing WTKTT, because I am a trained
>> investigator and I am That Guy I am willing to tell you
>> who the most likely candidate who spoke like a Cajun
>> with a Louisiana accent, which was probably your
>> politically correct way of saying he talked like an
>> African American, he is the black guy (one of about
>> 3 black guys fighting wildfire in the U.S. outside of
>> Region 8) in the photo of all (or many, or some) of the
>> overhead who fought that cursed Yarnell Hill Fire in
>> that God (or imaginary friend as you like to call the
>> Great Creator) Forsaken corner of hillbilly hell, end
>> of the road collection of desert rats
Well… yea… about half the people I know that DO have ‘Cajun accents’ are, in fact, African Americans from Louisiana… but on that point… I still don’t think there’s any absolute proof that there were ANY ‘black guys’ in fire command at the Yarnell Hill Fire that Sunday, June 30, 2013.
If you are talking about the photo where there is that guy with the ‘bluish tint’ all over his face and neck… I still don’t think it’s been absolutely verified that he is a ‘black guy’. There’s just some weird shit going on with the ‘light’ in that photo and the nearby BLUE lights of a police car out-of-frame to the rear of whoever was shooting the photo are doing strange things to people’s faces in that photograph.
But regardless of the ‘ethnic identity’ of whoever felt it was important to be asking ‘Granite Mountain’ their STATUS at exactly 4:13 PM… there’s little disagreement that the person had that ‘heavy accent’.
Even Holly Neill told ADOSH she thought that was the case.
Here is the email that Holly Neill sent to ADOSH on January 8, 2014, where SHE is describing what SHE thinks she is hearing in the Panabaker Air Study video radio capture at excatcly 4:13 PM.
This is the one where she first reported that she was hearing Marsh say he was ‘at the house’… and she was interpreting that as some kind of ‘proof’ that Marsh had made it all the way to the Boulder Springs Ranch.
It’s also where she is repeating her ‘demand/desire’ that ADOSH update their ‘report’ in order to show ( her words ) “a more positive and accurate legacy to the GMIHC”.
She was still thinking that this ‘proof’ she thought she found that Marsh had made it all the way to the Boulder Springs Ranch was ‘proof’ that Marsh was being a good little hotshot… and that he HAD ‘scouted and timed’ the ‘escape route’.
————————————————————————-
From: Gm Ihc ( xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx Redacted )
Sent: Wednesday, January 08, 2014 1:33 PM
To: Krotenberg, Marshall – OSHA State ( AZ-SP )
Subject: Re: GM audio
Attachments: Audio Results.docx
Marshall,
Here is an analysis I put together of some possible implications,
in attachment doc. Something to think about…
Best to you… Holly\
————————————————————————-
One of Holly Neill’s ‘analysis’ document sent to ADOSH…
————————————————————————-
To: WFA
From: Holly Neill
01-07-2013
The audio file I am sending is the cleaned, audio only version.
From _README file: …the time stamp on the video ( 16162 ) is the end time of the video, not the beginning. Video length 3:31
The original Video/audio is from: SAIT Investigation Record \ F-PhotosAndVideos \ A05-20130630AerialFirefightingStudyPhotosVideos
Video: 20130630-16162-O-VLAT-split-1-E-P
Start at 00:41: Background conversation:
—————————————————–
First voice: Division Alpha… (unclear on the next word.. Todd? OPS? Ah?)… what’s your status ( pronounced stay-tus ) right now?
Marsh: Ah the guys, ah Granite is making their way down—our escape route from this morning. It’s ah, it’s South… Mid slope, cut vertical.
A Different Voice: Copy. Working their (our?) way down into the structures.
First Voice Again: …on the escape route with Granite Mountain right now?
Marsh: Nah, I’m at the house where we’re gonna jump out at.
—————————————————–
I have used the above audio file to make some comparisons to the SAIR and WFA reports to illustrate some of the possible implications of this audio. Changes would need to be made to add this additional information and correct previous assumptions. I believe this will lead to leaving a more positive and accurate legacy to the GMIHC; providing more clarity for their families, and adding a better understanding of possible lessons the entire WFF community can learn.
Holly Neill.
————————————————————————-
A lot of what Holly Neill ‘thought’ she was hearing in that radio capture has been disputed, and even she and John Maclean sort of ‘backed off’ some of their original assertions when they went public with this up at Bill Gabbert’s ‘Wildfire Today’ site…
…but even Holly Neill was hearing ‘the accent’ on the part of the person who was asking ‘Granite Mountain’ what their ‘status’ was at 4:13 PM and was making a ‘note’ of it in what she gave to ADOSH.
She is definitely hearing ‘stay-tus’.
The whole question being asked there ( at exactly 4:13 PM ) pretty much sounds like this…
“Granite Montun… ( the caller’s CALLSIGN? )… Wuz yo stay-tus rat now?”
Holly Neill also originally thought she was hearing the same person with the ‘accent’ as the one asking the followup question to Marsh about whether he was actually WITH ‘Granite Mountain’ at that moment ( 4:13 PM ).
She thought she was hearing this…
First Voice Again: …on the escape route with Granite Mountain right now?
Whether it’s that ‘First Voice Again’ or not ( it *might* be ) it’s doubtful that the words ‘escape route’ are in the question and what he was asking Marsh is more like ( simply )…
“Are you WITH Granite Mountain right now?”
Holly Neill also originally was sure she heard Marsh say “Nah” ( NO ) in response to that question… which is what a lot of other people hear as well.
Bottom Line: I still think this person who is speaking directly to Eric Marsh at 4:13 PM, ( right smack in the middle of the 30 minute period when Arizona Forestry and the SAIT said NO ONE was doing any such thing ) should have been ‘easily identifiable’ to the original investigators… if they had only even bothered to TRY and identify him.
I still think it’s ABSURD that when Jeff Whitney ‘walked out’ of that recent interview that HE had requested with John Dougherty the day before the ‘Family Staff Ride’ on April 5, 2016… and then he sent Arizona Forestry’s Joy Hernbrode into the room with John insted… Joy Hernbrode then had this to say about whether anyone had any evidence of ‘further communications with’ or ‘planning’ going on with Granite Mountain…
“….if somebody HAS evidence of that… we definitely would like to see it.”
News Flash for ya, Joy.
YOU ( Arizona Forestry ) have ALWAYS had ‘such evidence’ in your possession.
And everybody ( except for YOU? ) KNOWS it.
And when John Dougherty then tried to point this fact out to Joy in the on-camera interview ( with questions regarding WHO is being CLEARLY heard talking to Eric Marsh in the YARNELL-GAMBLE video )…
…she immediately ENDED the interview… like a scared rabbit.
Just for reference…
ALL of Holly Neill’s emails to ADOSH, and her attempts to get them to ‘update’ their official report to make things look better ( in her mind ) for Eric Marsh and the GM Hotshots have always been part of the ORIGINAL ADOSH public evidence folder.
They are contained in this PUBLIC document…
/ ADOSH / Dropbox / Notes and Emails / Krotenberg / N9589 January 2014.pdf
Here is a direct link to that PUBLIC evidence folder…
https://www.dropbox.com/sh/20inrene9tcx74a/AAA8w9VKiGs4f4XshHNCO_qpa/ADOSH%20Notes%20and%20Emails/Krotenberg?dl=0
No…I am talking about the BLACK guy (African American), I am never sure which one is the right one to say, so I use both in a sentence if I can). I already looked for the photo because it made me sick to look at the group of smug bad ass wildland firefighters but I deleted it. I found it by accident while I was researching material for the book I am going to write that is going to blow the whistle on that entire fucking circus called the Yarnell Hill Fire and all of the clowns running it.
I will keep looking for it. OR somebody with some BALLS could just post his name here under an alias and save us some trouble…you chicken shit bunch of HYBRID pusssies (non-gender specific).
FYI – It was a group photo of what looked like most of the clown troupe in front of the “Where the desert breeze meets the mountain air in a shit hole from hell” sign.
They all had dirty faces like they had been playin’ in their momma’s mascara so I think it was a typical “hero” photo of a bunch of losers because they wanted to remember their role forever in the single biggest FUCK UP in wildland firefighting history. I will keep looking for it.
I recognized some of the guys like the Three Stoodges from the Prescott, especially the guy with the goatee, he had a really mean look on his fact like he thinks he is a real bad ass, most of them did.
I wish I would have had them on my crew back in the day. I would have eaten them for lunch and shit them out by dinner time or I would have taught then how to fight wildfire, depending on their potential.
Bunch of ball less pussy (non-gender specific) clowns.
I haven’t found it yet, but will keep looking. Nobody has done the right thing…HUGE SURPRISE…and emailed me at [email protected] and told his name.
I know the blue guy you are talking about (I ask Marti what was up with the blue guy and Marti said he was black but then somebody else said it was because of the emergency lights nearby) but this guy didn’t look blue…he looked black.
It looked like a class photo of many of the fuck up overhead from the Yarnell Hill Fire. It didn’t look like a working crew…it looked like a bunch of fuck ups who wanted to capture their biggest moment in their sad lives to remember they were THERE and played a role in killing the crew..
Oh…and there are literally hundreds of people out there right now who know exactly who you are talking about.
Well…somebody just told me they think that might have been a Type II crew, but I thought I saw at least one of the Three Stooges in the photo?
But in any case, whether it is that guy or not…there weren’t very many Cajuns on that fire no matter how you look at it. There are hundreds of people who know exactly who you are talking about…like the Cajun.
But it is the same ole shit, nobody knows nothin.’
they did have a African American on the prison crew that Andrew Williams showed us the photos-
Well…I gave up about who the black guy was, but somebody knows who the Cajun was, and he knows who Marsh was kissin’ up so hard to he killed his crew to make that you-know-what happy.
**
** THE CRUCIAL QUESTION AND ANSWER SESSION
** SECRETLY TOOK PLACE BACK ON FEB 5, 2016.
Well.. it’s been confirmed.
The crucial ‘question and answer’ session between Arizona Forestry and family members of the deceased GM Hotshots that was mandated in the settlement of 12 of the 15 wrongful death lawsuits took place ‘in secret’ back on February 5, 2016.
The Prescott Daily Courier has just now published a LONG article about this… as well as covering the ‘Family Members’ Staff Ride the first week of April and also confirming the ‘Fire Community’ Staff ride which just took place a few days ago.
The new article is here…
http://m.dcourier.com/news/2016/apr/29/families-officials-walk-final-footsteps-hotshots/?
According to the article… the crucial Q/A meeting back in February was pretty much a joke. The legal settlement gave family members the RIGHT to request WHO should be present at this meeting to actually answer their questions… but MANY of the key witnesses and participants simply refused to be there.
This new article also CONFIRMS something else.
The legal settlement had a blurb in it about the things that Arizona Forestry was now REQUIRED to do ( such as the Q/A meeting and the Staff Ride ) were supposedly dependent on the (quote) “cessation of all litigation including all appeals”.
The Courier article now CONFIRMS that Jeff Whitney and Arizona Forestry decided to waive that and go ahead with things… even though there ARE still cases that are still being actively appealed and have not yet resolved.
So that also represents a confirmation that at least one of the 3 wrongful death lawsuits that was NOT part of the Patrick Mcgroder negotiated settlement ( Marcia McKee’s original wrongful death lawsuit ) is still actively on appeal and there has been NO final resolution of that lawsuit yet.
And Whitney also fully acknowledges that all the property damage lawsuits that were filed are also still in the appeal process and there real hasn’t been any final resolution of those lawsuits, either.
Followup…
The link above actually comes out formatted for MOBILE device.
Here is a link to the DESKTOP version of today’s Courier article…
The Prescott Daily Courier
Article Title: Families, officials walk in final footsteps of the Hotshots
Originally Published: Friday, April 29, 2016 6:02 a.m
http://dcourier.com/news/2016/apr/29/families-officials-walk-final-footsteps-hotshots/
From the article…
——————————————————————
To date, family members appear mixed on the results of the settlement agreement.
While Deborah Pfingston, mother of fallen Hotshot Andrew Ashcraft, says the question and-answer session and the staff ride exercise were helpful, she points out that some families had concerns about the expected outcome.
“Some families chose not to come,” Pfingston said of the question-and-answer session, which took place in Phoenix on Feb. 5, 2016.
For some, concerns centered on the level of participation among the wildland officials who were onsite at the Yarnell Hill fire in 2013.
Linda Caldwell, the mother of fallen Hotshot Robert Caldwell, said that while she participated in the settlement process early on, she decided not to take part in the question and-answer session.
“I got frustrated with it, because the people who know the answers weren’t going to be there,” Caldwell said, maintaining that the session appeared to be “lip service,” without the participation of key local officials who were in charge the day of the Yarnell Hill Fire.
Pfingston also mentioned the absence of some of the key local wildland officials who decided not to participate.
She said, “I think they held their line. I do believe there are some that are still holding information, because of the ramifications.”
Specifically, she said, the officials stood behind the Serious Accident Investigation Report, which she said was “extremely flawed, and full of holes.”
Whitney pointed out that the question-and-answer session was intended to be conducted “after all litigation is concluded, including appeals.”
While noting this past week that property-loss lawsuits and one wrongful death appeal are still pending, he said the Forestry Division determined, “It’s too important not to do this now.
——————————————————————
Registered letter sent to state officials associated with the Yarnell Fire Incident–no reply as of yet sent out over a week ago. Response, if any, will be posted.
“The Yarnell fire was under your jurisdiction and to date the incident management team leaders (Musser/Hall/Abel/Cordes/Willis) have not yet clearly told the public the truth about GM’s final last hours. In a recorded message at 3:50 pm Abel had a conversation with Marsh where Marsh is saying he is working his way off the top and Abel responds “Copy that, keep me updated. Hunker and be safe and we’ll get air support down there ASAP.” Hunker and be safe is not an order it is similar to saying
“God Bless —God Be With You…be safe” Abel has made a big deal about “hunker and be safe” yet is acknowledging GM will need and have air support…when they get to the bottom. There were continuing conversations until the deployments and death. It is long past due for the public to know the full details. If honest mistakes were made in under the Yarnell extreme fire conditions we need to fully know the specifics. There can be no healing until this process is completed.
If the State of Arizona and those specified above deny the above, I want it formally stated in writing and signed by all those noted above and by the state of Arizona. All we have are lots of unsigned witness statements where most the true facts are left unsaid. With signed statements where these men and the State of Arizona write us they are telling whole the truth as they know it, we can begin to hold these men and the State of Arizona publicly accountable.”
Actually there were three:
From: “Bill Boyd”
Date: Apr 25, 2016 10:03 AM
Subject: records request
To: “[email protected]”
Cc:
Dear Tex Harold Eldon Gilligan (Sonny) and Joy Collura,
I have received your public record request dated April 20, 2016.
Regarding the embossed document with Scott Hunt’s name but not his signature: I need you to be more specific please. What was it embossed with? Subject?
Regarding the Yavapai College question: Jeff Whitney was not employed by the State of Arizona between 6/30/13 and 7/4/13 nor was he involved in the Yarnell Hill Fire.
Regarding bulldozer operations: All bulldozer documents have been provided.
Regarding the questions and answers session with the families: I have those documents available.
Regarding the development of the Staff Ride: I have those documents available.
I can also provide a copy of the settlement agreement and the Serious Accident Investigation Report.
Due to the volume of documents involved email is not possible. If you can come to our Phoenix office I can provide you the materials on CD. If you are not able to pick the documents up in person please provide a self-addressed CD envelope.
Thank you,
Bill Boyd
Public Affairs and Legislative Officer
Arizona State Forestry
1110 W. Washington St., Suite 100
Phoenix, AZ 85007
Office: (602) 771-5156
Mobil: (480) 540-2081
Email: [email protected]
———- Forwarded message ———-
From: “Bill Boyd”
Date: Apr 25, 2016 1:51 PM
Subject: RE: records request
To: “yarnell hikers”
Cc:
The SAIR and the settlement agreement are the official documents regarding the Yarnell Hill Fire. Any evidence that Forestry has in its custody has been made public and provided as part of the investigation.
From: yarnell hikers [mailto:[email protected]]
Sent: Monday, April 25, 2016 10:35 AM
To: Bill Boyd
Subject: Re: records request
The part about the sair was the most serious topic.
I want you to know, Bill, the evidence information and who is in possession of it has been shared to Knapp too. The signatures of these men that were listed and the state of Arizona signature was to allow you all to know with or without signatures the truth is about to come out but was hoping you all did it first because I love Arizona and hoped they do right by me…ignorant house wife who believes truth matters. ..and just was forthcoming. I’m not the owner of material just a person who heard first hand discussion and know who does have it. So yes it would be nice to have in my hands that even to this date Arizona forestry and the men there still agree with sair even though there is proof that does not show new evidence but just areas not yet shared public. Joy H the lawyer of yours said public said Dr Ted Putnam’s claim were based on evidence not yet seen or shown but this seems to be most likely not the case so why has noone subpoena Dr ted Putnam yet? I’m confused.
yarnell hikers
9:04 AM (0 minutes ago)
to me
———- Forwarded message ———-
From: “Bill Boyd”
Date: Apr 25, 2016 4:05 PM
Subject: RE: Fwd: RE: records request
To: “yarnell hikers”
Cc:
I will cover the CD if you cover the postage.
From: yarnell hikers [mailto:[email protected]]
Sent: Monday, April 25, 2016 3:10 PM
To: Bill Boyd
Subject: Re: Fwd: RE: records request
Than we would like all forestry has for the last hour before they died as far as communications and if the sair is it than that’s okay…and still think the nations top lead fire fatality investigator Dr Ted Putnam should be subpoena for what he has that has caused a stir world wide. Let’s call him out. I will find counsel and see if l can do it myself and file suit to obtain what he has or ask him direct for it but I know you all are able to do it hence why I’m confused why Joy H. has not yet.
I will get it in the mail tomorrow the SASE. How much for CD?
Thank you Bill.
**
** MCDONOUGH IS TRYING TO ‘DIAL BACK’ SOME OF
** HIS PREVIOUS PUBLIC STATEMENTS
Bill Gabbert over at ‘Wildfire Today’ has, apparently, read McDonough’s new book… and he is quoting from its content more than any other article I’ve read so far.
( I have still not seen or read this McDonough thing ).
And according to some ‘new’ quotes from the book that Gabbert is now publishing… Brendan isn’t just refusing to talk about certain things… he is actually now trying to ‘DIAL BACK’ things he has ALREADY said.
Wildfire Today ( Bill Gabbert )
Article Title: Lone survivor from Yarnell Hill Fire publishes book
Published: April 25, 2016
http://wildfiretoday.com/2016/04/25/lone-survivor-from-yarnell-hill-fire-publishes-book/
From the article…
————————————————————————————-
I was hoping that the book would reveal more about WHY the 19 men left the safety of a previously burned area (the “black”) and hiked cross-country through dense unburned brush where they were entrapped by the fire. That is a crucial piece of the puzzle not yet revealed to the public. A piece that could add to the body of knowledge about firefighting that could be a valuable lesson learned — possibly preventing similar fatalities.
But a clue was in our interview eight months ago when he said:
“I would never … if my brothers did make mistakes, I would never keep that a secret to put in a book. There’s nothing that is going to be in there that people don’t already know.”
And he was true to his word. While he revealed a great deal about his private life, there is little about what happened on June 30, 2013 that has not already come out in the investigations, reports, and the video recordings made by various firefighters that day that included audio of radios used by firefighters. While there are many quotes of radio conversations in the book, most of them appear to have been previously revealed in the recordings. There are no earth-shaking revelations about who made the crucial decisions, or why, that led to the Granite Mountain Hotshots being in the wrong place at the wrong time.
Mr. McDonough wrote in the book:
“I had no idea they had moved out of the black. Neither did anyone else.
The focus was on saving Yarnell and not getting burned up ourselves.”
————————————————————————————-
There are actually THREE ( new ) separate statements there ( in the book ) coming ( supposedly ) straight from Brendan McDonough…
1. “I had no idea they had moved out of the black”.
Horseshit.
Compare THAT with what Brendan himself said in his previous interview with Bill Gabbert back in August of 2015… which is here…
http://wildfiretoday.com/2015/08/31/the-yarnell-hill-fire-lone-survivor-interview-with-brendan-mcdonough/
In THAT interview… Bill Gabbert reported…
“Brendan said that he didn’t hear a radio conversation between the two about WHY the crew left the black. He DID hear, though, a discussion about Marsh going on ahead toward the ranch to make sure the route was good, and Marsh later told Steed they should make their way down there.”
So just on this one point… Brendan has now ‘changed’ his ‘story’ from…
“Marsh later told Steed they should make their way down there”
To…
“I had no idea they had moved out of the black”.
2. “Neither did anyone else. ”
Horseshit.
Brendan is in no position to state that as an absolute fact, in his book.
It means even author Stephan Talty didn’t ‘do his homework’.
SPGS1 Gary Cordes testified to ADOSH that he never had any doubts that Granite Mountain was ‘on the move’… out of the black… and that they were headed to the Boulder Springs Ranch… and there are many other ‘voices’ heard in radio captures which prove that others had the same information, BEFORE the men got trapped in the box canyon.
Actually… even without being aware of Cordes’ testimony… if this is what Brendan really still believes then I suppose that can be construed as proof that at NO TIME during those ‘huddles’ in the Ranch House Restaurant parking lot that Brendan participated in did either SPGS1 Gary Cordes or TFLD(t) Tyson Esquibel offer up what THEY (both) knew… and what we can HEAR them both ‘discussing’ in a ‘radio capture’… that Granite Mountain was most likely just WEST of the Boulder Springs Ranch just prior to their entrapment.
3. “The focus was on saving Yarnell and not getting burned up ourselves.”
Horseshit.
In the 45 minutes to an hour leading up to the deployment… the ONLY ‘focus’ was ‘evacuations’. Brendan was with Blue Ridge. There was absolutely NO ‘focus’ on Blue Ridge’s part to do anything to ‘save Yarnell’ in this timeframe. Blue Ridge was simply getting ‘off the fire’ and to safety at the Ranch House Restaurant and received no such ‘help save Yarnell’ assignment.
Even SPGS1 Gary Cordes ( responsible for the protection of Yarnell itself ) told ADOSH they ( he and fire command ) had already decided NOT to make any kind of effort to ‘save Yarnell’ once it was clear the fire was coming into town.
A = SPGS1 Gary Cordes…
———————————————————————————————–
1579 A: …after I did that I went down to the Ranch Restaurant like which is just up by
1580 Glenn Ilah there, and tied in with um, everybody. At that point I was making
1581 sure everybody, all the resources were in the safety zone and uh, because we
1582 had already made the determination that we were not gonna actively fight fire
1583 within the community ‘til it had pulsed through because of the, the high risk.
————————————————————————————————
“…we had already made the determination that we were not gonna actively
fight fire within the community”.
All that being said… maybe Brendan’s NEW statement of…
“The focus was on saving Yarnell and not getting burned up ourselves.”
…actually DOES indicate he still isn’t “telling everything he knows”… and that there WERE some ‘other plans’ that even Gary Cordes has refused to talk about.
Is it on Donut’s facebook or media outlets about him the lone survivor (eh hum…bullshit…cough…cough) doing a commercial?
I called and talked to Rusty at ADOT and led me to Prescott permitting and Richard said it was for a truck commercial May 3, 2016 for the Weaver Mountain highway 89-
The permit is not for a movie just a commercial-
Jason Henton replied to your photo links wwtktt…he said:
Yeah. The one with his back turned looks about right. Have to see the face.
Reply to Joy A. Collura post on April 28, 2016 at 7:03 pm
>> Joy A. Collura said…
>>
>> Jason Henton replied to your photo links wwtktt…he said:
>> Yeah. The one with his back turned looks about right. Have to see the face.
Looks about ‘right’… for what reason?
Remind me again… who is this ‘bald FF’ you are trying to identify… and for what reason?
This is the part Sonny has not come forward with information and it was a dialect he had with Jason Henton on the safety officer that spoke about specifics and arctic air and hard to talk about it because the man drew it and I have been HOPING Sonny would chime in here being it was his talk not mine…but I will interview Jason soon as he is going to give us retardant drop samples from his 14 acres out by shrine-balucu-s&p area so we can start heavily researching why people keep dying
Reply to Charlie post on April 28, 2016 at 9:29 am
>> Charlie said…
>>
>> Well the movie is here said Joy as she drove home to Congress last
>> night- cops and filming in action. I don’t know what the night part will
>> be, perhaps night time road block situations–people including even
>> the press were totally blocked out from going in except in certain
>> controlled instances.
Just a week or two ago ( on April 11, 2016 ), the New Mexico Film Board was all a-twitter and making announcements that the Kosinski “No Exit” movie about the Yarnell Disaster would be ‘filming’ as early as this June there in New Mexico.
Article Title: Granite Mountain Firefighter Movie to Film in New Mexico
Published by OHI On April 11, 2016
http://www.oneheadlightink.com/2016/04/11/granite-mountain-firefighter-movie-to-film-in-new-mexico/
From the article…
———————————————————————–
EXCLUSIVE: A fact-based feature film about the Granite Mountain Hotshots – the elite firefighter crew that perished in the Yarnell Hill wildfires of 2013, is scheduled to film in New Mexico this summer.
The film is based on the in-depth 2014 article about the tragedy , titled “No Exit,” written by Sean Flynn for GQ magazine.
Josh Brolin (No Country for Old Men, Sicario) and Miles Teller (Fantastic Four, Divergent) are set to star in the action/drama directed by Joseph Kosinski (Tron:Legacy, Oblivion). The film is expected to film in New Mexico beginning this June.
———————————————————————–
“A fact-based feature film”
We shall see.
Maybe in McDonuts dillysional version of reality… Should be stored in the fiction or fantasy section
Spell check… Dillusional
Reply to Gary Olson post on April 27, 2016 at 7:45 pm
>> Gary Olson said…
>>
>> I don’t know…I may have to rethink the whole Santos thing?
>> I just read her freebie and it really make me feel like I was there
>> while one of my heroes Eric Tarr did a job for us no one should even
>> have had to do just as the Blue Ridge Boys and the 3 Prescottiers
>> did after him. As I have said before…that task would have sent me to
>> me knees in grief and despair. So I might have to read her book and
>> pony up some money for it. Kyle Dickman can line up behind
>> Mr. McDonough to kiss my ass…I ain’t buyin’ theirs.
Buyer beware.
From even just the ‘freebies’ floating around from these TWO ( Count ’em, TWO ) tomes being ‘available for purchase’ this week… it looks like the TRUTH is going to take a BIG HIT this week.
Example: Even in the SANTOS PROLOGUE… she is trying to say that Brendan McDonough is the one who noticed his ‘trigger point’ was being met… and like a good little lookout… was then ‘warning’ Jesse Steed about what the fire was doing.
Total horseshit.
Even in Brendan’s testimony to Bill Gabbert at Wildfire today, he admits that it was Jesse Steed himself who INFORMED Brendan… “it’s time for you to get the fuck out of there”.
Ditto for Brendan’s testimony to ADOSH.
At NO TIME was ‘lookout Brendan’ the one who was WARNING anyone about anything.
It was only through his converstations with Jesse Steed that Brendan was told to ‘get the fuck out of there’.
That’s okay. Books and movies can come and go.
The TRUTH will survive.
Well the movie is here said Joy as she drove home to Congress last night- cops and filming in action. I don’t know what the night part will be, perhaps night time road block situations–people including even the press were totally blocked out from going in except in certain controlled instances.
Locals were convinced the press was their enemy, yet it was the press that brought in millions in aid. I wanted the press in badly since I knew their presence would expose a lot of bull shit we were being fed by the martial law experts. I was near arrested since Joy and I were the first back from evacuation, having slept on a picnic table at Mountainaire. Mountainaire is just south a mile from where you turn west off 89 to a 3 mile road to Peeples Valley community. From Mountainair it is just 3 miles more south to Yarnell and the roadblock we were first in line and then detained because I allowed an Arizona Republic reporter to tie a $5000 camera to my old Chevy station wagon and was going to give the world a look at the main street of Yarnell because the press was still forbidden to go in. Shit what happened to the freedom of press and speech. But the locals were ignorant enough to give away that right, and I mean constitutional right, so their burnt homes would not be shown to the world and so a lot of the actual truth of this thing was denied the world.
So the state of Arizona now went further and restricted areas only to a few individuals on half a section of state land, took our tax money to pay all this, yet no one but a privileged few can go on that half section. What are they hiding? There is no government secret there–only disaster facts that should be shown to every tax payer that has paid millions on because this fire so badly managed. Yet the living wild land fire fighter has not gotten justice by being allowed the truth of how those men got killed by the errors in the system that beg to be corrected.
Those too that have suffered in Yarnell have not gotten justice either. People are worried about suits and some being prosecuted for these errors, but what about justice being done here. Us tax payers footed the bill, yet we are denied the right to view the situation. There are people on their death beds at this very moment and if you make the count of 84 locals dead since the fire and counting, then you see there is more than the 19 involved in this shameful management of a wild land fire. The 230,000 gallons of retardant is brushed off as inert chemical warfare against wild fires. Well if you want to kill off fish in rivers and elderly with health issues then dump it in a river or next to a retirement town. It does its deadly work quickly in cases of fish and elderly.
Joy says that there is a picture of my old Chevy and us lying there waiting to get into Yarnell again in the Arizona Republic in yesterday’s issue. It is a reminder of how badly this thing went–how we had to have a fucking green card like an illegal Mexican to get back to our residences. How eroded this system has become and how so many Americans are willing to trade off their basic rights to depend on a flawed system that needs cleaning up on the inside. This place looked more like a prison camp than a community and that should not be same as that wild fire should have been taken care of early so the bunglers did not have to kill the 19.
Nor should any where that is state land be restricted to the tax payer that pays these public servants to work for them. And sadly, people that are professionals in wild land fire fighting death investigations are restricted from the area not to mention wild land fire fighters, former wild land supervisors and other concerned tax paying citizens that by right should be allowed to walk those lands and see the many errors that caused the deaths of the 19.
Joy and I last night discussed posting a registered letter we sent to the state a week or so ago with questions pertinent to this disaster. She is looking it up in my emails, since we had sent it out to many concerned people that post on this site–as well as many officials, media people, including JD. So today if she has not already posted it the questions are out there. It will be interesting to see how they are answered after watching the way this investigation has been handled to cover the tracks of the mismanagement of this fire.
I like the idea that Turbyfill and Pfingston were attempting to get more of the truth about the cause of the death of their loved ones that they know is hidden by actually attending a staff ride to get important questions answered. Obviously it did not happen. Did Amanda go along on that ride?
Dr. Putnam told me there are two types of people concerning wanting to know about the truth of the deaths of their loved. One class just accepts what they are officially told and does not want to hear anymore–just go on with life and accept the stories made to appease their ears. Then there is the people (myself included) that wants to know the real truth, not the SAIR version or anything that blights the truth.
I see myself in the latter category. When my son was wrapped up in a huge boat wench and his arm torn loose from his body I had no qualms for people to know how, why, and what caused this and eventually caused his death. It is hard to imagine the immense pain he suffered from that, but then he escaped death and despite that pain lasted some years even to attend an Arizona University as a straight A student in Chemical Engineering. He was not a whiner and that his end came from meds or whether a room mate who heard his last gulping breaths, but never bothered to take action killed him, I never got closure. The eight year room mate disappeared soon after but the Chandler police never followed up or considered it a possible homicide. Still the truth remains clouded for me.
Certainly there is much pain that the loved ones had here. But to hide any of the facts to protect reputations is fallacy and injustice to the living wild land fire fighter. To nullify their needs for private interests as we have seen in the case of the Yarnell 19 only contributes to the negligence and wrongful actions that will continue to kill wild land firefighters, just as my son who was working as an underwater welder had bosses who willifully neglected taking care of faulty equipment. Those young firefighters were killed by the negligence and orders from their bosses, and Steed and Marsh are not the only ones that need to be on the blame chart. That line of neglect goes beyond those two bosses and those that ordered their demise to even to those at Yarnell, Peeples Valley, and Congress fire departments that failed to do due diligence to duty.
So go ahead and whine and cover the facts if that is your way. But Turbyfill and Pfingston are doing the right thing for their sons and for the future wild land fire fighter–fighting for the truth that will win out.
The one thing that just keeps pissing me off with all the References to Yarnell and Granit Mountain HS.
When news media and book sales start with———-
THE LARGEST FIRE FIGHTER FATALITIES SINCE 9/11…………..
There is a hell of a difference between Wild Land Fire Fatalities and Structure Fire Fatalities. Actually there are more Structure Fire Fatalities per year than Wild Land Fire.
My frustration is they do not seperiate the difference between the TWO.
Actually The Yarnell Hill Fire was the Largest Wild Land Fire Fatalities since
The Rattle Snake Fire in 1953 which held that terrible distinction for 60 years.
15 Wild Land Fire Fighters died there. 14 on South Canyon and 12 on the Loop Fire.
Granted it was a horrible loss of NYC Fire Fighters on 9/11 and it stands on its own.
Yarnell will stand I hope for a Hundred years as the worst Wild Land Fire Fighter
Loss in Wild Land Fire Fighting History.
The 1910 northern Idaho Fires clamed more citizens than actual Fire Fighters or Individuals from Crews.
Any way they are never included in statistics together.
Wild Land Fires
Structure Fires
Two completely different suppression organizations. Two totally different environments. Two totally different functions.
Bob,
Not anymore, Bob. Structural/Wildland – same thing. It’s “All Hazard.” Hence the blending of two cultures into one………enter the Hybrid Firefighter.
Before your heart rate becomes elevated, I agree with you.
Woodsman
I still say it is seperiate the WLFF are not trained to fight actual structure fires. While the structure FF are trained to fight wild fires but some day it will happen in those areas where the small mountain communities will have Federal FF trained and outfitted to suppress Structures.
Back in my day we responded to a lot of house/cabin fires we always said we could save the foundation as long as the 500 galleons held out.
we just squirted water and turned off the Propane tank never got there to do any thing else. We weren’t equipped to any way.
Yes, thank you. I HAVE re-thought my position and I don;t need to read any more bullshit (or feel good fantasy) about the Yarnell Hill Fire even though she did right by Eric Tarr…so her book is back on my banned list of fiction.
As long as I am taking a break from my arduous book writing after finishing my first paragraph…hey Rome wasn’t built in a day….and my problem is I get easily distracted….HEY, A BLUE CAR JUST DROVE PAST MY HOUSE! VERY COOL., anyway, forgive me I digress after reading the teaser the other day from Mr. McDonough’s book it seems to me that unless there are some major changes in how they do the movie…THE FUCKING MOVIE IS GOING TO BE ABOUT HIM! Not Eric Marsh, Jesse Steed or the other 17 who died as heroes, the movie is going to be about one man who was too hung over to do his job as a grunt which was cut line so they put him up on a hill so they didn’t have to listen to him whine and then he almost kills himself by looking for a place to crawl into his WF Death Shroud when Brian Frisby accidentally finds him and saves him!
After a lifetime of waiting for hotshots to get some recognition for the work they have done for decades in obsurity, we now have Mr. McDonough as our Gold Standard by which all other hotshots are now judged, past present and future and that includes the rest of the GMIHC because God had a different plan for the rest of them but Mr. McDonough was apparently encouraged by God to drink more than the rest of them the night before so he was seperated in God’s master plan for the universe from those who were supposed to die because God has specail plans for Mr. McDonough in the future…I guess like spending the rest of his life showing the world what a REAL hotshot looks like! RTS is RIGHT! God does move in mysterious ways, his wonders are ours to witness!
Oh…and one more thing before I start on my second paragraph of the book I will never finish, just as soon as I finish listening to Donald Trump tell us all how he is going to make American Great Again, I just want to know when America stopped being Great. I missed that memo.
Anyway…back on track. The TRUTH may indeed survive, but right now you have to admit that it is on life support and a lot of people are circling its hospital bed with pillows in their hands. So…
Joy did pre- order Brendan’s book, I tried to cancel but it was too late–so OK Gary we are on the same page. But then maybe it is worth the $16 for entraining bull shit off the fiction shelf- I told Joy you ought to have waited a while since it would be up for a penny on Amazon in a short time if you don’t mind the $3.99 shipping charge.
I am not going to take it to a book signing. But then never say never; because, probably Joy bought that fiction so she could take it to a signing and to see if she could get some questions answered–and she can do a good job there.
Reply to gizmo post on April 27, 2016 at 5:11 pm
>> gizmo said…
>>
>> Curious where and how you verified this statement you’ve made many,
>> many times here wtktt:
>>
>> “Jesse Steed’s first botched-MAYDAY call about being “in front of the flaming front”
>> would not take place for just 1 mnute shy of one full HOUR after that ( at 4:39 PM ).”
>>
>> Have you had voices verified from family that this first call out for help is Jesse?
Me, personally?… No.
But even before we reached a ‘consensus’ here in this ongoing discussion that the voice that first reports “We are in front of the flaming front” is, indeed, a ‘match’ for other known recordings of Jesse’s Steed’s voice… other people who DID have DIRECT access to ‘family members’ ( and investigators ) were also reporting it as a FACT.
See below.
>> gizmo also said…
>>
>> Why do you believe the first call out voice is Jesse? Or are you using the baseless
>> reason that since Jesse was the acting Supt that day he would logically be the
>> only one to call to the Bravo Unit?
Again… see below… but I wouldn’t ( myself ) describe the reason you just gave as ‘baseless’.
I think it’s very logical ( and just simply makes sense ) that if anyone was going to ‘break in’ on ‘Arizona 16’ and try to make EMERGENCY contact… that it would be the person actually in CHARGE of that group… whoever it was.
>> gizmo also said…
>>
>> Just wondering since you speak in absolutes the majority of the time.
About a month after that original ‘Helmet Camera’ video was first released by Arizona Forestry in December of 2013 ( which we now know was video filename M2U00265 and was actually just 1 of 21 videos shot by Prescott National Forest employee Aaron Hulburd, ALL of which had ALWAYS been in Arizona Forestry and the SAIT’s possession even long before the SAIR was published )… USA TODAY ran an article that was originally written by Dennis Wagner and Yvonne Wingett Sanchez of the ‘Arizona Republic’.
In that article ( Published January 23, 2014 ), there was no doubt in these Arizona Republic reporter’s minds that the voice we hear reporting “We are in front of the flaming front” belonged to Jesse Steed.
USA Today
Article Title: 2 experts dispute Arizona wildfire findings.
30-minute gap in communications likely wasn’t true, they say.
Published: by USA TODAY 12:25 p.m. EST January 23, 2014
Original article by: Dennis Wagner and Yvonne Wingett Sanchez ( Arizona Republic )
http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2014/01/23/new-yarnell-hill-fire-recordings/4796501/
From that article…
———————————————————————————
Holly Neill uncovered background radio traffic among fire personnel on previously released video shot for an aerial firefighting study. The radio traffic is sometimes garbled and barely audible. In one segment, an indistinct voice — which Neill and Maclean contend is Marsh — said the Granite Mountain crew was “making their way down the escape route” toward the ranch.
That transmission occurred at 4:13 p.m., in the middle of the communication gap that the Serious Accident Investigation team identified.
According to a transcript of the voices provided by Neill and Maclean, an unidentified voice responded to Marsh, “Copy, working their way down into the structures.”
According to Wildfire Today, another unidentified voice asked, “… (Are you) on the escape route with Granite Mountain right now?”
Neill and Maclean believe Marsh responded, “Nah, I’m at the house where we’re gonna jump out at.”
Minutes later, an unidentified voice said, “… appreciate it if you could go a little faster, but you’re the supervisor.”
A voice Neill and Maclean believe was Marsh answered that the Granite Mountain Hotshots were “coming down from the heel of the fire.” By that time, however, severe monsoon winds had reversed the blaze, so crew members were hiking directly into its path.
Nine minutes later, Granite Mountain’s acting crew chief, Jesse Steed, put out an emergency call: “We are in front of the flaming front!”
——————————————————————————————-
Notice this ‘declaration’ in that January 23, 2014 USA TODAY article…
——————————————————————————————–
Nine minutes later, Granite Mountain’s acting crew chief, Jesse Steed,
put out an emergency call: “We are in front of the flaming front!”
——————————————————————————————–
The article does not SAY whether Dennis Wagner and Yvonne Wingett Sanchez of the ‘Arizona Republic’ had gotten a ‘confirmation’ on this before printing it as a FACT… but it is known that both Wagner and Sanchez DID have access to ‘family members’ if they needed things confirmed… as well as access to people involved in the ‘investigation’ itself.
SIDENOTE: After some ‘pushback’ from others listening to the same audio recordings, Holly Neill and John Maclean subsequently admitted that the phrase “I’m at the house” only *may* have been present in one of the transmissions… and that whatever is being said there does not constitute solid evidence that Eric Marsh had made it all the way to the Boulder Springs Ranch in advance of Jesse Steed and the GM crew.
However… the original SAIR actually DID always have a single mysterious line in it ( on PDF page 30 ) which DID suggest that Marsh was already ‘scouting ahead’ towards the Boulder Springs Ranch even as Brendan was leaving his lookout mound.
On PDF page 30 of the SAIR…
At this point in the narrative, the SAIR is describing what appears to be information obtained from their interview with Brendan McDonough about what Brendan ‘believed’ Eric Marsh was ALREADY doing ( scouting something ) even as Brendan was leaving his lookout mound right around 3:36 PM…
————————————————————————
As GM Lookout departs ( his lookout position ), he believes the crew
is in the black and watching the fire, and DIVS A is scouting.
————————————————————————
That was the end of the paragraph in the SAIR… and it offered no explanation along with that published statement regarding WHAT Eric Marsh might have already been ‘scouting’ circa 3:36 PM.
This ‘suggestion’ that Eric Marsh really was ‘scouting ahead’ to the Boulder Springs Ranch was eventually VERIFIED by Brendan McDonough in his PUBLIC interview with Bill Gabbert at Wildfire Today on August 31, 2015.
————————————————————————-
Bill Gabbert asked Brendan…
Do you know why the crew left the safety of a previously burned “black” area and decided to walk through unburned brush toward the ranch?
“I have no clue,” says McDonough. “I know they were asked to come to Yarnell if it was possible and Eric said, ‘No, we are going to stay here in the black.’ And for some reason they left.”
He ( McDonough ) adds that he didn’t hear a radio conversation between the two about why the crew left the black. He DID HEAR, though, a discussion about Marsh GOING ON AHEAD toward the ranch to make sure the route was good, and Marsh later told Steed they should make their way down there.
————————————————————————-
** OTHER PROOF IT IS JESSE’S VOICE
Way back when, we reached our own ‘consensus’ here in this ongoing discussion that it almost had to be Jesse speaking there… because there is no question that it simply SOUNDS like him.
Every voice has ‘qualities’ like tenor, timbre, pitch, placement, cadence, etc. etc.
If you listen to ANY known recordings of Jesse Steed’s voice… the voice heard saying “We are in front of the flaming front” is almost a perfect match. There are ‘voice qualities’ there that are identifiable, even if the caller was ‘yelling’ during that first radio call.
** KNOWN RECORDINGS OF JESSE STEED’S VOICE
The Christopher MacKenzie videos ( which I’m sure you are aware of ) contain a good audio sample of Jesse speaking THAT DAY… and less than an hour before he would lose his life.
There is another VERY good sample of Jesse’s voice to use to compare to what is heard in the ‘Helmet Cam’ video. It comes from a VIDEO INTERVIEW that Eric Marsh and Jesse Steed ( and other GM Hotshots ) did with the local affiliated ‘The Prescott Daily Courier’ back in 2010.
That complete VIDEO INTERVIEW with Marsh and Steed is a PUBLIC VIDEO that is still sitting here on YouTube…
YouTube Video Title: 2010 Granite Mountain Hotshots train hard.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aKT6TnRPMy4
At +20 seconds – Eric Marsh starts narrating the video
At +1:44 thru +2:42 – Jesse Steed is now narrating the video and speaks for 58 seconds.
Again… just compare Jesse’s VOICE to what is heard at start of the ‘Helmet Cam’ video.
If that isn’t Jesse Steed actually saying “We are in front of the flaming front”… it is someone who simply SOUNDS almost EXACTLY like him.
All of the above being said…
Are you trying to say that you ( personally ) do NOT believe that is actually Jesse Steed breaking in on Arizona 16 with that first MAYDAY call?
If you don’t think it’s Steed… then WHO do YOU think is speaking there?
>> gizmo also said…
>>
>> Do you believe its possible that the first call out and
>> the second call out are different voices?
That is not only ‘possible’… it’s a FACT.
The voice being heard in the second ‘callout’ is most definitely NOT the same voice as is heard in the intial “We are in front of the flaming front” callout.
That SECOND voice is most likely Robert Caldwell… and this definitely seems to have been CONFIRMED ( in PUBLIC ) by a ‘family member’.
Just after the original video was published… Amanda Marsh was commenting about how horrible she thought it was that anyone but ‘family members’ would ever be allowed to hear this audio… and Laure McKee Sutton left a public comment confirming that she hears Robert Caldwell’s voice in the recording(s).
Laurie McKee Sutton is Grant Quinn McKee’s sister.
Grant Quinn McKee is one of the GM Hotshots that died and the son of Marcia McKee.
Grant McKee and Robert Caldwell were cousins, and it was Robert Caldwell himself who got Grant the ‘job’ on the GM crew for the 2013 fire season.
So not only is Laurie McKee Sutton related to the Hotshot Grant McKee, she is ALSO related to GM Hotshot Robert Caldwell.
So it stands to reason Laure McKee Sutton would know VERY WELL what Robert Caldwell’s voice ‘sounded like’.
Here is the actual original PUBLIC comment that Laurie McKee Sutton made on Amanda Marsh’s Facebook page just after the video/audio was released, in which she CONFIRMS she is hearing Robert Caldwell’s voice in the MAYDAY calls…
——————————————————————————————-
Public Facebook comment posted by: Laurie McKee Sutton – December, 2013
Amanda I totally relate – Robert’s voice is on there too – It is not how we
want to remember him – It is so painful – Thank you for saying how I
feel – love ya soul sister xoxox
———————————————————————————————
All of this was discussed at length in a prior thread as part of this ongoing discussion back in December of 2013, right after the original ‘Helmet Cam’ video was released. I’ll post a ‘jumplink’ to that prior discussion as a ‘Reply’ to this posting.
Wow…very detailed.
Sent a few the FILMING IN PROCESS next four miles sign…night scenes…so the stars in the sky are not the only stars out…official signs are posted going up and down yarnell hill.
Maybe time for desert walker to go take a night hike and see what can they film out there at night? The area they are in I hope the get the glimpse of the coatmundi and ringtail…they are fun…night…
The New Mexico film Board had already announced ( with some excitement ) that THEY think the people gagging to do a the ‘film’ have been scouting ‘locations’ there in New Mexico for the Kosinksi/Director film “No exit”…but it still stands to reason that if they are going ahead with the project… they will need to do SOME of the ‘filming’ in the Yarnell area itself.
We shall see.
Followup… the original ‘discussion’ of the proof that Robert Caldwell is heard in the original ‘Helmet Cam’ video…
http://www.investigativemedia.com/state-forestry-divison-fined-nearly-560000-for-mistakes-in-managing-yarnell-hill-fire-that-killed-19-hotshots/#comment-6024
And just ‘some’ of the ‘content’ of that orginal ‘discussion’….
————————————————————————————-
On December 18, 2013 at 1:58 am, WTKTT posted…
** IS ROBERT CALDWELL’S VOICE ACTUALLY
** RECORDED IN THE ‘LAST MOMENTS’ VIDEO/AUDIO?
A possibly very significant piece of new information appeared
just last night and it spurred some interesting discussion
today… so for the sake of recording more detail… here is
the exact ‘piece of evidence’ that ( might have ) emerged.
A standard Facebook ‘group’ comment from Amanda Marsh
about how painful it was to hear Eric’s voice on the video
was posted last evening.
That original post from Amanda Marsh is here…
https://www.facebook.com/groups/595705917126991/permalink/677629595601289/
The beginning of Amanda Marsh’s post reads…
>> In Memory of Our Good Friend, Eric Marsh
>> Its very disturbing to me and hurtful to know that people can
>> hear Eric’s stressed, scared voice on the radio. How sad that
>> people, other than family and fire officials feel the need to listen
>> to the last transmissions. The more energy we put towards
>> this, it just fuels… (More)…
That ‘letter’ was then ‘replicated’ on another Facebook page which is here…
19 Prescott Firefighter’s Last Alarm
13,391 likes · 1,142 talking about this
https://www.facebook.com/PrescottFallenFirefighters
People started to comment back to Amanda on THAT page
and this is the exact text of just ONE of the 45 or so
comments that appeared…
Laurie McKee Sutton
Amanda I totally relate – Robert’s voice is on there too – It is not how we
want to remember him – It is so painful – Thank you for saying how I
feel – love ya soul sister xoxox
Laurie McKee Sutton is Grant Quinn McKee’s sister.
Grant Quinn McKee is one of the GM Hotshots that died
and the son of Marcia McKee… who has the multi-million
dollar wrongful death suit already filed.
The ‘Robert’ being referred to in her comment must be GM
Hotshot Robert E. Caldwell. He was the only ‘Robert’ on the GM crew.
Claire and Robert Caldwell were in Laurie McKee Sutton’s ‘Friend’ list on Facebook.
Prescott Daily Courier article with photo of Linda Caldwell,
Grant Quinn McKee, and Laurie Sutton all running a store
together in Prescott back in 2009…
http://www.dcourier.com/Main.asp?SectionID=1&SubSectionID=1&ArticleID=71243
So not only is Laurie McKee Sutton related to the Hotshot Grant McKee,
she appears to ALSO be related to GM Hotshot Robert Caldwell.
So… it would stand to reason that she knew Robert’s voice VERY well.
————————————————————————————-
And just ‘some’ of the ‘content’ of that orginal ‘discussion’….
————————————————————————————-
On December 18, 2013 at 1:58 am, WTKTT posted…
** IS ROBERT CALDWELL’S VOICE ACTUALLY
** RECORDED IN THE ‘LAST MOMENTS’ VIDEO/AUDIO?
A possibly very significant piece of new information appeared
just last night and it spurred some interesting discussion
today… so for the sake of recording more detail… here is
the exact ‘piece of evidence’ that ( might have ) emerged.
A standard Facebook ‘group’ comment from Amanda Marsh
about how painful it was to hear Eric’s voice on the video
was posted last evening.
That original post from Amanda Marsh is here…
https://www.facebook.com/groups/595705917126991/permalink/677629595601289/
( Continued next ‘Reply’ due to number of ‘links’ involved )…
( Continued from previous ‘Reply’ due to number of ‘links’ involved )…
The beginning of Amanda Marsh’s post reads…
>> In Memory of Our Good Friend, Eric Marsh
>> Its very disturbing to me and hurtful to know that people can
>> hear Eric’s stressed, scared voice on the radio. How sad that
>> people, other than family and fire officials feel the need to listen
>> to the last transmissions. The more energy we put towards
>> this, it just fuels… (More)…
That ‘letter’ was then ‘replicated’ on another Facebook page which is here…
19 Prescott Firefighter’s Last Alarm
13,391 likes · 1,142 talking about this
https://www.facebook.com/PrescottFallenFirefighters
People started to comment back to Amanda on THAT page
and this is the exact text of just ONE of the 45 or so
comments that appeared…
Laurie McKee Sutton
Amanda I totally relate – Robert’s voice is on there too – It is not how we
want to remember him – It is so painful – Thank you for saying how I
feel – love ya soul sister xoxox
Laurie McKee Sutton is Grant Quinn McKee’s sister.
Grant Quinn McKee is one of the GM Hotshots that died
and the son of Marcia McKee… who has the multi-million
dollar wrongful death suit already filed.
The ‘Robert’ being referred to in her comment must be GM
Hotshot Robert E. Caldwell. He was the only ‘Robert’ on the GM crew.
Claire and Robert Caldwell were in Laurie McKee Sutton’s ‘Friend’ list on Facebook.
Prescott Daily Courier article with photo of Linda Caldwell,
Grant Quinn McKee, and Laurie Sutton all running a store
together in Prescott back in 2009…
http://www.dcourier.com/Main.asp?SectionID=1&SubSectionID=1&ArticleID=71243
So not only is Laurie McKee Sutton related to the Hotshot Grant McKee,
she appears to ALSO be related to GM Hotshot Robert Caldwell.
So… it would stand to reason that she knew Robert’s voice VERY well.
————————————————————————————-
I’m not disagreeing there are three different voices in that helmet cam, it’s the first two voices that we aren’t quite sure who’s is who’s, agree? Yes, I do realize this has all been discussed on a past thread and the issue remains the same. Speaking in absolutes, making definitive statements and actually correcting people about things that you don’t even know to be 100% true because you haven’t made verifications yourself, that doesn’t help with keeping the facts as facts.
Yvonne and Dennis’ article does not confirm anything as far as voice verification, this is sloppy journalism and forming a consensus here using an article in the paper as a source is crap. And as far as the Maclean deal, well at least its admitted when they may have been mistaken about what they interpreted in the verbiage on the audio. Although I still hear the word house.
I see it as irresponsible to speak in such absolutes is all, and you can tell me to piss off, it’d be fine but I still think humility here in what is posted is a must. Especially with crap on crap coming out in books soon.
Did you do what I suggested up above?
Just LISTEN ( yourself ) to the known recordings of Jesse Steed’s voice… and compare them to the person who says “We are in front of the flaming front”.
I ( me, personally, your mileage may vary ) believe the first ‘speaker’ in that emergency radio sequence is, in fact, Jesse Steed.
And until someone can PROVE it is NOT… that is what I ( me, personally, your mileage may vary ) will continue to believe.
When looking at things like this… it is, in fact, OKAY to arrive at a ‘consensus’ until more evidence comes to light. A ‘consensus’ never implies ‘total agreement’. A ‘consensus’ just means “given the (currently) available evidence… it is highly likely that a certain something is, most likely, TRUE”.
As far as using media articles as sources… I don’t know for sure if Sanchez verified her statement with anyone who knew Jesse Steed well enough to identify his voice… but you ( also ) can’t say for sure that she did NOT.
My ‘Regardless’ up above implied that even without this ‘other evidence’… there are existing recordings of Steed’s voice you can listen to… and you can make up your own mind whether YOU think that is ‘him’… or not.
Again… I’d be interested to hear YOUR ‘conclusions’ about WHO is speaking WHEN in that ‘Helmet Cam’ video.
http://www.azcentral.com/story/news/local/arizona/2016/04/23/granite-mountain-hotshot-brandan-mcdonough-book-yarnell-fire/83404270/
was that the same article wwtktt?
Yes. No matter how many times they keep changing the TITLE of the article and then trying to make it appear it has been ‘newly published’… the URL LINK to the article ( and their own ‘Article ID’ ) remains exactly the same as the original article published April 23, 2016.
Just look at this information in the URL…
It’s always the same no matter how many times they change the TITLE, including the misspelling of Brendan’s first name ( they think it is Brandon )…
Article ID: 83404270
Date of original publication: 2016/04/23 ( April 23, 2016 )
Article name: granite-mountain-hotshot-brandan-mcdonough-book-yarnell-fire
http://hereandnow.wbur.org/2016/04/25/the-fire-line-book
Since 4-20-16 I have been placing all information out there where it needs to be placed. Arizona Forestry are not the only ones who have been notified. On 4-25-16, Bill Boyd of Public Affairs and Legislature Officer Arizona State Forestry they will share to me the needed information and the SAIR and the settlement agreement are the official public documents regarding the YHF- any and all evidence that Forestry has in its custody has been made public-
I have been through many horrible tragedies—horrible and this was may it be the worst in wild land firefighting community is not the worst tragedy-
People ask how can you as a simple ol housewife be a voice for another-
just walk away—move along—nothing to see here.
When you place yourself on a ship that due to negligence is about to sink or you are on a plane that is being hi-jacked—are you going to just say the Lord’s prayer or are you going to do everything in your might and power to do the right thing and fight back to make sure and to ENSURE change takes place.
I LOVE A R I Z O N A!
Yet some of the people running the show are not doing their job right to ensure safety matters so this never happened again and it did…Twisp fire….it has to stop. I am not a facebook person…so if any person can send me a direct link where I don’t have to sign in to look at a photo please do so for Marty Cole and if Marty Cole is not the bald headed burley man who claimed to be safety officer on YHF that YOU burley man tld Jason that the higher ups did not head your advice of the arctic air/fire flow and what happened as YOU saw it…the man that spoke to Jason Henton of Chino Valley at TDK welding who Jason was a former legion 40 man…this burley man is described to look like the younger guy on Pawn Stars- HOW many people are going to keep sitting enjoying the sunshine when 19 mens lives are gone forever plus alot died since…when is time for you to SPEAK UP!
I am busy right now placing all information in the right spots behind the scenes and if the truth does not come out—WHY ain’t the state or Joy H. or Knapp subponea Dr. Ted Putnam on this new public information that was on John Dougherty’s article.
Answers please…
Reply to Joy A. Collura post on April 27, 2016 at 12:52 pm
>> Joy A. Collura said…
>>
>> I am not a facebook person…so if any person can send me a
>> direct link where I don’t have to sign in to look at a photo please
>> do so for Marty Cole
That PUBLIC article in the ‘Chino Valley Review’ ( posted the other day ) has a good picture of Marty ( Martin ) Cole, and no LOGIN is required…
The Chino Valley Review
Article Title: Into the heat with my dad.
Published: 6/15/2011 by Diane DeHamer ( Feature Writer )
http://cvrnews.com/main.asp?SectionID=74&SubSectionID=114&ArticleID=53876
>> Joy A. Collura also said…
>>
>> On 4-25-16, Bill Boyd of Public Affairs and Legislature Officer Arizona
>> State Forestry they will share to me the needed information and the
>> SAIR and the settlement agreement are the official public documents
>> regarding the YHF- any and all evidence that Forestry has in its
>> custody has been made public-
That remains ‘not credible’… and here is just ONE ( good ) example why…
What about all the evidence they collected from Bob Brandon and the other Peeples Valley firefighters, just 48 hours after the tragedy?
NONE of that has ever seen the ‘light of day’.
Testimony from Bob Brandon, in his OWN words, with no media person ‘filtering’ the information…
The Yarnell Hill Recovery Group
Our Stories – Bob Brandon
http://www.yarnellhillrecoverygroup.org/os_bob_brandon.html
Peeples Valley Firefighter Bob Brandon’s own words…
————————————————————————————————
My job ( on Sunday at the Yarnell Hill Fire ) was to map out the safety zone and send a lookout up on top of Boulder Mountain so we would have a zone to get back to and a lookout to tell them if anything starts going bad.
Probably mid-afternoon, the bulldozer came rambling through the woods. It kind of looked like Jurasic Park, knocking down trees, clearing a roadway. When it arrived at our location, I was just sitting by my tanker taking pictures of it because it was just kind of an awesome site.
When he pushed though the woods and got to our location, all of a sudden, he turned around, did a 180 and took off. He never finished the roadway he was supposed to do for us.
We were confused because now we had to finish it by ourselves.
We looked up behind Boulder Mountain and we noticed that the fire was standing straight up, right behind Boulder Mountain about 100 feet high. And we’re thinking, That’s not right. because the fire was way north of us, clear up to Peeples Valley.
As the sky started to darken, we were getting really nervous about what was going on. Well the Hot Shots from Blue Ridge came running out of the woods, and I mean just as fast as they could go, and this was heavy forest. They just came running out of the woods, jumped in their trucks and left. And I’m thinking, Wait a minute. They’re professionals. We do this on a volunteer basis, so what aren’t we seeing?
I had an alarm that we had set up. I was going to turn the siren on and start pressing the siren so they could hear us, and that meant to abandon and come back and we’ll get out. Well, when I started the alarm, the Incident Commander for our area came pulling up, and he said, “I want you to get these trucks out of here.”
I says, “I can’t do that.”
He said, “You have to do it now.”
And I said, “No. There’s six men still like a mile out into the forest and they need to come back to this safe zone, because this is where they know it is.”
And he said, “No. I’m telling you to leave now.”
I was fortunate enough that I had a camera in my jumper. So I was taking pictures all the time, any time I had a spare moment. And I took a picture of the slurry bomber that was actually driving right for what we later found out were the fallen firefighters.
We got up the next day and went back to the Ranch House, which was our sector, and they told us what they’d like for us to do was to drive down into Glen Ilah. They gave us different roads we were supposed to go in on and put out whatever we could to keep the fire from spreading any farther because there appeared to be some houses that hadn’t burned.
We spent the day putting out fires all over in the west end of Glen Ilah.
Our other men, two of the other firefighters from Peeples Valley, went in with the team to where the 19 firefighters passed away. And they were basically fire suppression up to the Helms house so the investigation could go in and take care of it. So they actually had an assignment for that day to put out little trees and bushes and things like that so they could actually get into that location.
The next day ( July 2 ) they took us in and debriefed us. This was two days after the incident with the 19. They went through and looked at my pictures and took a flash card of them. And I don’t know what they did with them, but it was pretty good because my pictures had timelines on them, so they could see what happened at what time.
Then they took information off our cellphones because that’s how we talked to, texted, each other. And those all had timelines on them, too. What time we were there. What time we were aware that the fire was about to overtake us. What time we got out. And some of the texts about whether we were safe.
————————————————————————————————
NOTICE that Bob Brandon definitely says he was ‘taking pictures’ of the bulldozer that was pushing line there near the Youth Camp at the end of Shrine Road. He also specifically says he was (quote) “taking pictures ALL the time… ANY TIME I had a spare moment”.
That means that Bob Brandon alone took a LOT of pictures that day.
Perhaps even some ‘videos’.
So these are the relevant paragraphs…
————————————————————————————————
The next day ( July 2 ) they took us in and debriefed us. This was two days after the incident with the 19. They went through and looked at my pictures and took a flash card of them. And I don’t know what they did with them, but it was pretty good because my pictures had timelines on them, so they could see what happened at what time.
Then they took information off our cellphones because that’s how we talked to, texted, each other. And those all had timelines on them, too. What time we were there. What time we were aware that the fire was about to overtake us. What time we got out. And some of the texts about whether we were safe.
————————————————————————————————
Bob Brandon specifically says that ‘they’ took an entire ‘flash card’ away with them containing copies of ALL his photos ( and perhaps videos )… and it can be assumed ‘they’ did the same thing for the other Peeples Valley FFs as well, if THEY happened to have any photos ( or videos ).
He also specifically says his photos alone had ‘good timelines’ on them, ‘so they could see what happened at what time’.
Then he also specifically describes ‘them’ taking other ‘information’ off ALL of their cellphones such as copies of timestamped ‘text’ messages and perhaps ‘call logs’.
If there were also any VIDEOS retrieved as ‘evidence’ from ANY of these Peeples Valley Firefighters… there is a good chance that they ( like so many other videos taken that day ) *might* have additional background radio traffic captures that haven’t been heard yet.
NONE of this EVIDENCE collected from ALL of the Peeples Valley Firefighters just 48 hours after the incident has ever seen the ‘light of day’.
And keep in mind that this evidence was ‘collected’ just 48 hours after the tragedy.
The SAIT hadn’t even been fully formed yet, or received its ‘delegation of authority’.
YCSO was not ‘going around collecting evidence’ from firefighters.
ADOSH would not even attempt to interview any of the Peeples Valley Firefighters for more than a month after the tragedy.
So that leave ‘Arizona Forestry’ as being the ‘they’ who Bob Brandon says ‘debriefed’ ALL of them ( and collected all this evidence and testimony ) just 48 hours after the tragedy.
Bob Brandon also said…
“And I don’t know what they ( the Arizona Forestry personnel ) did with them”
Neither do we, Bob. Neither do we.
I shared link with Jason Henton of Chino Valley at 3:18pm 4-27-16.
Jason confirmed MAYBE.
at 3:49pm he stated:
If Cole shaved his head maybe. that’s an old photo.
this guy was tall built bald.
That is update there. I will get to bottom of it.
I am like the folks on United 93 who Hollywood portrayed their fairytale much like the movie on YHF will be MADE UP but I am much like the folks on that hi-jacked plane—I ain’t gonna just sit down and not be a voice—these firefighters past and present deserve and NEED us to STAND UP for them…question to Gary O-
do you have the SAME evidence as Dr. Ted Putnam does? and as well directed to RTS? do you? if so, the time has come to share it— subpoena is an option if a must— Knapp has been notified of the people who may have this piece of evidence…I think it can be ruled out if you reply your answers here or in private—and I also will direct it to Bob Powers- same ?
You make one area easier but if no reply- that is fine – I am gathering it other ways.
at 5:07pm Jason said the man was 5’10”
at 5:07pm Jason stated the man was 5’10”
Numbers 32:23
speak up missing elements.
https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/7b/a5/6e/7ba56e547696c6dde6379d93a7222a94.jpg
Joy,
I don’t have any information that I have not put on this blog. And as you know, I have not hesitated to put information here even though it has not been confirmed to be true, it is enough for me to believe it to be true just as long as I make that clear.
I have even said on this blog that no one should tell me anything if it comes with the stipulation that I can’t publicly disclose it here. I will protect a source up to and including a stay in county, but not what a source tells me. This is too important.
As you probably know, I still not have emotionally recovered from one of my heroes being so harsh with me so I am taking some time off from posting to heal spiritually. BUT…if I do learn anything in the meantime I will be back most ricky tick to report in.
I don’t know…I may have to rethink the whole Santos thing? I just read her freebie and it really make me feel like I was there while one of my heroes Eric Tarr did a job for us no one should eve have had to do just as the Blue Ridge Boys and the 3 Prescottiers did after him. As I have said before…that task would have sent me to me knees in grief and despair. So I might have to read her book and pony up some money for it. Kyle Dickman can line up behind Mr. McDonough to kiss my ass…I ain’t buyin’ theirs.
I do have some really good new for you however and it is not that I called Geico and I am going to save a ton of money on my car insurance. I have actually started writing the book I will never finish and a website to go with it, (I don’t need a website to go with a book I will never finish, I just like any excuse to build another website) “THE RISE OF THE HYBRID FIREFIGHTERS”
I am however, still reading this blog so keep em comin’ Robo Blogger and everyone else! I would offer WTKTT (and you too Joy, you are a gem) more encouragement than that, but as you all know…Artificial Intelligence AI’s do not respond to encouragement. You only have to toggle to on…or off, input 0’s or 1’s and they hum along, crunching out the data.
thank you Gary
Gary-
as long as we stand firm here- and have right view- right intentions- right speech- right action- right livelihood- right efforts- right concentration- and as Dr. Ted Putnam taught me the right mindfulness THE TRUTH will surface-
and do it with generosity, love and kindness…because beating someone down only gets you in the system anymore and more money in the cronies pockets—
Arizona State Forestry-
two things I want from you; START and GO ALL THE WAY…stop editing and omitting and start sharing the truths and go all the way—
from the depths of the earths; Salute to Gary; thank you for the quick reply- and enjoy the respite…God Bless our firefighters….retired ones too 🙂
Reply to Joy A. Collura post on April 27, 2016 at 5:08 pm
>> Joy A. Collura said…
>>
>> I shared link with Jason Henton of Chino Valley at 3:18pm 4-27-16.
>> Jason confirmed MAYBE, at 3:49pm he stated:
>> If Cole shaved his head maybe. that’s an old photo.
>> this guy was tall built bald.
It’s not likely that Marty Cole had ‘shaved his head’ prior to being present in Yarnell on Sunday, June 30, 2013. The link below to the photo of him taken at the 2013 Wildfire Incident and Management Academy, where he was acting as an ‘OPS’ for the AWIMA in March of 2013, shows him with a full head of hair just 90 days or so before the tragedy.
If someone is trying to say that some ‘bald firefighter’ was claiming to be a ‘Safety Office’ there in Yarnell on June 30, 2013… then I don’t know who that might be.
The only photos I know of from that day of a ‘bald FF’ were taken by Mr. Tom Story, in the Ranch House Restaurant parking lot, shortly after the deployment.
Folder 2 of the Tom Story photos…
SAIT Dropbox / Photos and Video / Tom Story Photos / 201303_Yarnell Hill_02
Direct link to this online folder…
https://www.dropbox.com/sh/02ue6bnjp6nazkm/AACUc_jX8WNPOrznsNSlYV-ea/Photos%20and%20Video/Tom%20Story%20Photos/201303_Yarnell_Hill_02?dl=0
In that folder… 21 rows down… 4th photo from the left…
Tom Story photo with filename: 201303_Yarnell_Hill_1677.JPG
There is a tall, bald FF standing on the left side of the photo, talking on what appears to be a cellphone ( and not a handheld radio ). He has a ‘chest harness’ on with the ‘X’ straps seen on his back.
Just in front of him is a guy with a ‘camo’ ballcap appearing to be copying something down that he is reading written on the hand of another FF with a yellow helmet and an orange ‘sidepack’ standing right next to him. That FF has a mustache.
That FF with the yellow helmet and the mustache *could* actually be Marty Cole, whose all-white Toyota Tacoma pickup with the camper top is already sitting there in the parking lot of the RHR with its door open over there on the right side of the same photograph, and just beyond the Blue Ridge Polaris Ranger UTV.
If you ‘Zoom In’ on that FF with the yellow helmet and the mustache, he certainly does look like Marty Cole.
The same FF with the ‘bald head’ and the ‘X’ straps on his back is not seen again in any other Tom Story photo until Story went to the back of the RHR parking lot and started taking photos from the staircase that led up to that old mobile home platform there at the back of the RHR parking lot.
But now we DO see this FF with the ‘bald head’ again… on the LEFT side of the photo and standing in that group of FFs gathered over by the ambulance.
Same folder, 24th row down, 4th photo from the left…
Tom Story photo with filename: 201303_Yarnell_Hill_1692.JPG
He is standing just to the left of the person with the black ‘ball cap’ that has already been tentatively identified as Dan Sullivan, the person Bryan Smith says is the one who actually rescued him and his cousin Peal Moore ( Rest in Peace ) that afternoon.
This same ‘FF with the bald head’ now remains visibile there near the ambulance on the left side of the photo in the next 10 Tom Story photos taken from the back of the RHR parking lot…
201303_Yarnell_Hill_1693.JPG
201303_Yarnell_Hill_1694.JPG
201303_Yarnell_Hill_1695.JPG
201303_Yarnell_Hill_1696.JPG
201303_Yarnell_Hill_1697.JPG
201303_Yarnell_Hill_1698.JPG
201303_Yarnell_Hill_1699.JPG
201303_Yarnell_Hill_1700.JPG
201303_Yarnell_Hill_1701.JPG
201303_Yarnell_Hill_1702.JPG
At no time, however, is this FF with the ‘bald head’ ever FACING the camera.
All we ever see is his ‘back’… and the ‘back’ of his ( bald ) head.
This FF with the ‘bald head’ has never been identified.
wwtktt said:
“It’s not likely that Marty Cole had ‘shaved his head’ prior to being present in Yarnell on Sunday, June 30, 2013. ”
no, his head was shaved when Jason spoke to him at Chino Valley TDK welding not on 6-30-13.
thank you wwtktt
I sent pics to Jason
**
** AZCENTRAL REPUBLISHES THEIR ARTICLE ABOUT BRENDAN’S BOOK
**
** BRENDAN DOES BELIEVE MARSH ‘BROUGHT’ THEM INTO THE CANYON
Kind of a weird thing just happended over at AZCENTRAL, and with regards to the ‘review’ of Brendan McDonough’s about-to-be-released book “My Lost Brothers”.
48 hours ago, AZCENTRAL published an ‘article’ about the book. Not sure you could call it an actual ‘book review’, but it did discuss the content of the book itself and things that McDonough is now saying ( and is still NOT saying ).
The TITLE on that article, as published 48 hours ago… was…
** Granite Mountain Hotshot tells a tale of loss and renewal.
But just this morning… AZCENTRAL has ‘republished’ that exact same article… but with a new TITLE. They have now CHANGED the TITLE to…
** Yarnell ‘lone survivor’: ‘I cried myself to sleep the first four or five nights’
Here are posts to both the FIRST publication of the article ( with the first title ), and now the SECOND publication with the brand new title about Brendan ‘crying himself to sleep’.
NOTICE that the URL ( link ) for BOTH publications is exactly identical, and even though the ‘date’ on the new published version with the new title says ‘April 25, 2016’ in the ‘copy’… the URL ( link ) for the article still has the same original April 23, 2016 ( /2016/04/23/ ) location for the article on the AZCENTRAL Server itself…
SIDENOTE: Yes… they really are still spelling Brendan McDonough’s name wrong in the URL, even after all this time and all their reporting on the Yarnell Hill Fire. They call him ‘Brandon’ instead of ‘Brendan’…
First publication… April 23, 2016…
AZCENTRAL
Article Title: Granite Mountain Hotshot tells a tale of loss and renewal
Published: 8:32 a.m. MST April 23, 2016 by Yvonne Wingett Sanchez
http://www.azcentral.com/story/news/local/arizona/2016/04/23/granite-mountain-hotshot-brandan-mcdonough-book-yarnell-fire/83404270/
Second publication… ( with new title )… TODAY… April 25, 2016…
AZCENTRAL
Article Title: Yarnell ‘lone survivor’: ‘I cried myself to sleep the first four or five nights’
Published: 10:14 a.m. MST April 25, 2016 by Yvonne Wingett Sanchez
http://www.azcentral.com/story/news/local/arizona/2016/04/23/granite-mountain-hotshot-brandan-mcdonough-book-yarnell-fire/83404270/
What makes this ‘weird’ is that if the ‘Arizona Republic’ ever has an ‘update’ to a previously published article ( at the exact same URL )… they would normally just add an ‘Update on’ field to the top of the article, but the article would still retain the original date of publication.
That’s not what they did here.
The SAME article with just a NEW TITLE now also appears to have a NEW ‘original date of publication’ TWO DAYS after when they actually published it.
As far as I can tell… the entire content of the original April 23, 2016 article is exactly the same as the ‘new’ article… except for the TITLE.
So it would appear the ONLY reason they did this was to just change the TITLE to something more ‘dramatic’ ( about a grown man crying himself to sleep ) in the hopes of catching more reader ‘eyeballs’.
That’s just weird.
** MCDONOUGH ADMITS MARSH MUST HAVE ‘BROUGHT’ THEM INTO THE CANYON
All of that being said… this article has a statement from McDonough in it that I didn’t catch the other day which is worth mentioning.
One of the ‘sections’ of this article is called ‘Still no answers’, and it is the part where AZCENTRAL is reporting things Brendan had to say to THEM in an interview that THEY did with him prior to publishing this article ( originally on April 23, 2016 )… on the ‘Friday’ before they first published it.
That’s the part where Brendan seems to now be calling both Prescott City Attorney Jon Paladini *and* former Prescott Division Chief Darrell Willis LIARS regarding what they have previously reported.
Here is what that ‘Still no answers’ section said…
———————————————————————————–
Still no answers
Speculation abounds that McDonough knows more than he has disclosed about events that day. But McDonough says he doesn’t. He makes no mention of a conversation he purportedly had with Prescott’s former chief of wildland firefighting, in which he reputedly said he overheard a radio call in which the hotshots were ordered to leave their safe zone.
McDonough on Friday tried to end the speculation. “I did not hear that,” he said.
———————————————————————————–
So Brendan seems to now be DENYING he ever heard Marsh give anything that Brendan himself would characterize as an ‘ORDER’ to Jesse Steed to bring the men out of the safe black.
But in keeping with Brendan’s ongoing “ask me the right question and I *might* give you the right answer” gamesmanship…
He does not appear to be denying the original reports of an ‘argument’.
He ONLY appears to be denying hearing anything he would call an ‘ORDER’ that might have ‘ended’ the ‘argument’.
But in that SAME SECTION… Brendan also seemed to be talking about the day, about a month after the incident, when he accompanied the SAIT investigators out to the area.
That part of the article also appears to have actual ‘quotes’ from Brendan’s BOOK, because it uses the phrase ‘he wrote’ instead of ‘he said’.
That part of the article goes like this…
———————————————————————————–
About a month later ( after the tragedy ), McDonough stood on the rim of the deadly canyon as state forestry officials moved around below, where the men frantically tried to save themselves.
He walked down the slope, and touched the char-covered dirt where the investigators had been. He cut his hand on a piece of partly-melted glass, and after walking and sifting through the char, found 10 objects, pieces of his brothers, that included a coffee mug, a broken tool head and a small drip torch.
“I took each one and pictured the face of the man it belonged to and held that picture for a moment before relinquishing it,” he writes. “My hands were thick with the black soot that I knew contained trace amounts of the bodies of my friends.”
He wondered why they dropped into the canyon, and he “tried to get inside” Marsh’s head.
Marsh, he wrote, “would never have brought Granite Mountain into the canyon if he thought it presented a real danger to the men.”
———————————————————————————–
NOTICE these statement(s) from Brendan…
———————————————————————-
“He wondered why they dropped into the canyon, and he “tried to get inside” Marsh’s head Marsh, he wrote, “would never have brought Granite Mountain into the canyon if he thought it presented a real danger to the men.”
———————————————————————–
Specifically… THIS one statement…
“Marsh, he wrote, would never have BROUGHT the Granite Mountain Hotshots into the canyon…”.
So despite Brendan now saying that he ‘never heard’ anything resembling an ORDER coming from Marsh that would have ‘ended’ the (supposed) ‘argument’ that he and Jesse Steed were having over the move that Steed, apparently, considered ‘dangerous’…
…Brendan now also seems to be saying ( in his BOOK ) that there has never been ANY doubt in his mind that Eric Marsh ‘BROUGHT them into the canyon’.
As in… there really is no other way they would have ended up in that ‘canyon’ unless Eric Marsh ‘BROUGHT them there’… regardless of whether Brendan ( or anyone ) would characterize the ‘discussion’ as ending in any kind of ‘ORDER’, or not.
Right in line with the text from that brochure that the City of Prescott was handing out to new applicants for jobs with the Granite Mountain Hotshots…
“What it takes to be a Hotshot…”
“You must take orders, and carry those orders out at all times, day after day.”
So apparently… even in Brendan’s mind… there’s no way that Steed and the Crew could have possibly been where they were unless (quote) “Eric Marsh BROUGHT them there”.
And Brendan would know.
He ( and at least 3 other Blue Ridge Hotshots ) WERE ‘hearing’ that conversation on the GM intra-net radio channel that fateful day.
Your ability to diagnose this stuff with a lice comb is amazing (that’s a compliment by the way)
But having said that I do not take too much stock in a) reporters, as they tend to glamorize every story.
B) McDonut is definitely not a linguistic scholar. Some of his interviews were more like he had just survived a tornado in Podunk, Hillbilly Country, (I won’t pick a state, as it may offend some) use your favourite… Arkansas, N Carolina, Tennessee…..
Well… Looks like AZCENTRAL just can’t decide WHAT the title of their article about Brendan’s new book should be.
They just changed it AGAIN… making it look like the article was ‘just published’ again…. even though it’s the same article first published on April 23, 2016.
Original Article title…
** Granite Mountain Hotshot tells a tale of loss and renewal.
Which they then changed to…
** Yarnell ‘lone survivor’: ‘I cried myself to sleep the first four or five nights’
And they have NOW changed to…
** Yarnell ‘lone survivor’: ‘The roar of the fire was huffing behind me’
Here is the link to that article again ( notice that the URL on the Server is still identical to original and shows article was actually first published April 23, 2016 )…
The Arizona Republic ( AZCENTRAL )
Article Title: Yarnell ‘lone survivor’: ‘The roar of the fire was huffing behind me’
Published: 4:25 p.m. MST April 26, 2016 ( Originally publishes April 23, 2016 )
http://www.azcentral.com/story/news/local/arizona/2016/04/23/granite-mountain-hotshot-brandan-mcdonough-book-yarnell-fire/83404270/
There are also now ‘comments’ being left by the PUBLIC on this article about Brendan’s new book… and Brendan was kidding himself if he thought public comment about his ‘book’ was going to be all ‘supportive’. Some people HAVE been ‘paying attention’ all along.
The majority of the ‘comments’ are NOT GOOD.
For example…
———————————————————————————-
** Public Comment by: Monica Rodarte – Apr 25, 2016 2:56pm
Too bad he chose to write a book instead of testifying about what happened to his so called “brothers.”
** Public Comment by: Mary Melcher – 16 hours ago
Cashin’ in was what he was after.
** Public Comment by: Monica Rodarte – 17 hours ago
Mary Melcher… I was born and raised in Prescott and it was deviating when this happened. I get it was tough, but most people would step up and say what can I do to help. He continued to cancel appts to give testimony on what happened that day. Hard for me to trust his integrity. Those men that died are my hometown heros. I know some of their family members. Shame on him. Oh, and did his therapist suggest someone so unstable maybe shouldn’t own a gun?
———————————————————————————
McDonut is a lying little bastard..he knows a LOT more than he is telling…..
We all know it…
The Truth will set you free” as they say in the bible thumper circles… So why keep playing stupid???
I never use Brenden or Brandon–Donut is a better moniker for him- a nut with a hole in it. This fellow has never been trustworthy and continues his charade. His sympathy wagon is beginning to run short.
Reply to Charlie post on April 25, 2016 at 8:37 am
>> Charlie said…
>>
>> Donut says 19 minutes after Frisby picked him up he was
>> sitting in his truck when he heard Marsh (actually Steed
>> was calling) saying they were in a flaming front. Exactly
>> where was he sitting in that truck when he heard that.
19 minutes is WILDLY WRONG. Where did you see/hear him say that?
Brendan was climbing into the Blue Ridge Polaris Ranger UTV to be ‘evacuated’ and Frisby was now informing Marsh he was no longer coming up for that second face-to-face meeting right around 3:40 PM.
Jesse Steed’s first botched-MAYDAY call about being “in front of the flaming front” would not take place for just 1 mnute shy of one full HOUR after that ( at 4:39 PM ).
>> Charlie also said…
>>
>> I would guess they took about 10 minutes by that ATV
>> to get to the truck and about that much time to get
>> out to the Ranch House Café. Was that where he
>> heard this?
The first part of above is inaccurate. Brendan ( and everyone else ) would not hear the first MAYDAY call for a full hour after Frisby had rescued Brendan. That MAYDAY call from Steed didn’t hit the A2G channel until 4:39 PM.
However… the second part of above is accurate.
Yes… it is MOST likely that the entire ‘Blue Ridge Convoy with GM vehicles’ had JUST arrived at the parking lot of the Ranch House Restaurant ( after having just evacuated down from the Youth Camp at the end of Shrine Road ) when Steed’s first 4:39 PM MAYDAY hit the A2G channel.
They ( Blue Ridge and GM vehicle drivers ) were actually still probably in the act of PARKING all the vehicles there in the RHR parking lot when Steed’s first MAYDAY would hit the A2G channel.
Blue Ridge Hotshot Jonathan Papich took 2 photographs from the passenger side of one of the Blue Ridge Crew Carriers just as it was about to turn into the driveway of the Ranch House Restaurant.
He took both photos with his network-connected Apple iPhone 4, so the timestamps can be considered totally accurate.
Both photos were taken looking WEST from that passenger side of the BR Crew Carrier… and the second photo was taken just 7 seconds after the first one. Both photos show the ‘smoke column’ exactly where it was in relation to the box canyon at the time they were taken ( 4:35 PM ).
Those would be his photos with filenames…
IMG_3957.JPG – Taken at exactly 1635:06 ( 4:35:06 PM )
IMG_3958.JPG – Taken 7 seconds later, at exactly 1635:13 ( 4:35:13 PM )
So it can be assumed that some of the ‘convoy’ had already made it into the actual parking lot of the Ranch House Restaurant by the time Steed’s first MAYDAY call hit the A2G channel 4 minutes after Papich took his photos… at 4:39 PM.
Brendan McDonough was 2 vehicles back from the second Blue Ridge Crew Carrier in this ‘convoy’ down to the Ranch House Restaurant, so it can probably also be assumed Brendan had also just pulled the GM Superintendent Truck into the RHR parking lot just before the first MAYDAY call hit the A2G channel.
>> Charlie also said…
>>
>> That 19 minutes tells plenty of how fast
>> that fire was moving since he had barely escaped
>> his lookout point it had to be very close to his position
>> and Frisby. Frisby was escaping the thing as well and
>> must have seen the fire moving from his high position
>> where he intended to meet Marsh.
Frisby had not made it up to any kind of ‘high position’ when he accidentaly ( in Frsiby’s own words ) “stumbled across the lookout”.
Frisby also did not ‘stumble across’ Brendan at the ‘old grader’.
Brendan had walked down from his lookout mound the same way he had walked up, and he ’emerged’ from the brush not at the old-grader… but right there at that ‘T’ intersection just east of the old-grader. That’s how Frisby was able to ‘stumble across’ Brendan.
Frisby had no intentions of ‘passing by the old grader’ on that trip of his out to meet with Marsh up at the anchor point. As you know… that ‘road’ branches to the south and on up to the high ridge BEFORE you reach the old-grader.
If Brendan had not actually ’emerged’ from his hike down from his lookout mound right where he did, at the the ‘T intersection’ just east of the grader… Frisby would have ‘missed him’ completely and Frisby would have continued traveling up to the anchor point for the face-to-face with Marsh ( which was, at that time, the ONLY reason why Frisby was even headed that way ).
So whatever Frisby ‘saw’ that made him realized that both he and Brendan needed to turn around and get the fuck OUT of that area would have been what Frisby could see from that ‘T intersection’ there just east of the old-grader.
>> Charlie also said…
>>
>> That whole bunch made themselves look like amateur wild land
>> fire fighters. I suppose what is amazing is the fact they had not
>> long before fought the Doce fire under almost identical
>> conditions. It seems they were fighting these fires like one would
>> fight a burning building–not much worry to weather reports
>> and just contain the blaze so it does not spread to nearby
>> buildings. No need for a lookout, the boss is that and dishes
>> out the orders according to what he thinks and that does not
>> include wild land fire fighter way of thinking and use of LCES.
It was ( and hopefully in terms of numbers of dead ) shall remain…
“The Greatest Blunder in the History of Wildland Firefighting”.
And it would still behoove EVERYONE to know ( and UNDERSTAND )
WHY it happened… in order to prevent ( as much as humanly possible )
such a huge ‘blunder’ from ever happening again.
Curious where and how you verified this statement you’ve made many, many times here wtktt:
“Jesse Steed’s first botched-MAYDAY call about being “in front of the flaming front” would not take place for just 1 mnute shy of one full HOUR after that ( at 4:39 PM ).”
Have you had voices verified from family that this first call out for help is Jesse? Do you believe its possible that the first call out and the second call out are different voices? Why do you believe the first call out voice is Jesse? Or are you using the baseless reason that since Jesse was the acting Supt that day he would logically be the only one to call to the Bravo Unit? Just wondering since you speak in absolutes the majority of the time.
I believe it was USA TODAY and AZCENTRAL that first reported ( as a fact ) that the first voice being heard in the original ‘Helmet Cam’ video was Jesse Steed.
Regardless… it simply SOUNDS exactly like Jesse’s voice.
Robert Caldwell’s voice in the same video was verified publicly by ‘family member’ Laurie McKee Sutton.
Click the following link to see a longer ‘Reply’ up above…
http://www.investigativemedia.com/please-begin-yarnell-hill-fire-chapter-xx-here/#comment-333590
Correction well taken there WTKTT.
**
** FIRST ( OF MANY ) MCDONOUGH BOOK REVIEWS
I don’t know if this is their actual ‘book review’… or just another ‘pre-book review book review’ like they tried to publish yesterday… but here is more from AZCENTRAL about what is actually contained in McDonough’s upcoming book “My Lost Brothers”.
According to this ‘review’…
“McDonough’s book makes no new revelations about why his friends didn’t make it out alive.”
We also are now getting confirmation ( apparently ) that Brendan really did almost ‘eat his gun’ over the Yarnell Hill Fire.
AZCENTRAL
Article Title: Granite Mountain Hotshot tells a tale of loss and renewal
Published: 8:32 a.m. MST April 23, 2016 by Yvonne Wingett Sanchez
http://www.azcentral.com/story/news/local/arizona/2016/04/23/granite-mountain-hotshot-brandan-mcdonough-book-yarnell-fire/83404270/
Apparently ( in the book itself ) McDonough doesn’t mention ever having turned to Darrell Willis to ‘get something off his chest’… which Willis then shared with Prescott City State Attorney Jon Paladini and both of them, in turn, with officials at Arizona State Forestry and the Arizona Attorney General’s office.
But in this AZCENTRAL article ‘about’ the book… and from an interview they had with McDonough just YESTERDAY…
Brendan McDonough is now actually saying that both the former Prescott Wildland Division Chief ( Darrell Willis ) and the Prescott City Attorney ( Jon Paladini )… are LIARS.
From the AZCENTRAL article, when they asked him about what both
Willis and Paladini reported they were told…
——————————————————————-
McDonough on Friday ( yesterday ) tried to end the speculation.
“I did NOT hear that,” he said.
——————————————————————-
Here’s just some of the ERRATTA in the book, if this AZCENTRAL article is reporting the content correctly…
In this first one… McDonough is still totally mistaken about how/why he was actually ‘rescued’. McDonough has always been saying that the reason Brian Frisby suddenly appeared is because they must have been watching the fire behavior and they knew he was going to need a ‘ride out’… so Frisby headed that way to get him before McDonough even had to call him.
That is ( and always has been ) total horseshit.
To this day… McDonough seems to still be unaware that the only reason Brian Frisby appeared near his location in the Blue Ridge UTV circa 3:38 PM was because Frisby was on his way out to a second face-to-face meeting with Marsh… that Marsh had requested circa 3:26 PM, just before the critical 3:30 PM weather update from Byron Kimball.
In Frisby’s own words a few hours later ( captured in a video by Prescott National Forest (PNF) employee Aaron Hulburd )… Frisby himself is heard telling one the other PNF employees, Jason Clawson, that he had only accidentally STUMBLED UPON the ‘lookout’ ( Brendan ).
From the article…
—————————————————————–
…air attack told Marsh around 3:50 p.m. the storm was making its way toward Yarnell and could soon reach the town. Marsh said he was coming up with an escape plan.
Around that time, McDonough was fleeing for his life: He’d underestimated how quickly the fire was bearing toward him, and was terrified it would cut off his escape route.
“The roar of the fire was huffing behind me, growing louder and shriller,” he writes. He tore through the brush and the other crew, anticipating he’d need a ride out, rescued him
———————————————————————-
Interesting to now hear that after first trying to assert this was all a ‘controlled exit’ and was “no big whoop” ( to investigators )… Brendan now describes it as ‘fleeing for his life’.
That absolutely confirms the ADOSH citation for a ‘near entrapment’ regarding McDonough’s situation alone… which Arizona Forestry itself then tried to deny.
So Brendan now totally confirms the original ADOSH findings and their resulting citation.
A little later ( in the article )…
———————————————————————-
Nineteen minutes later, McDonough was sitting in a truck when he heard Marsh’s voice over the radio: “…we are in front of the flaming front.”
———————————————————————-
Nope. That was Jesse Steed.
And here is where McDonough, just yesterday, calls both Darrell Willis and
Jon Paladini LIARS…
———————————————————————–
Speculation abounds that McDonough knows more than he has disclosed about events that day. But McDonough says he doesn’t. He makes no mention of a conversation he purportedly had with Prescott’s former chief of wildland firefighting, in which he reputedly said he overheard a radio call in which the hotshots were ordered to leave their safe zone.
McDonough on Friday tried to end the speculation. “I did not hear that,” he said.
———————————————————————–
Followup…
In the ongoing consternation over that story originally coming from Prescott City Attorney Jon Paladini… Brendan’s most recent comment ( from just YESTERDAY ) about “I did not hear that” is probably ONLY referring to the same one-single-point that even Darrell Willis originally disagreed with regarding Paladini’s account of everything Willis told him Brendan said.
And that is just this one-single-point about whether anyone who actually heard what Marsh might have ultimately said to Steed will ever admit it was any kind of actual ‘ORDER’.
So even now… when Brendan says “I did not hear that”… it could just be more ‘dance-around’ and Brendan himself not willing to admit he would characterize whatever he heard as an actual ‘order’.
Brendan is now saying “I didn not hear that”… in reference to some SINGULAR thing.
But there was far more to the original story than just this one, single thing and how that ‘argument’ might have ended that day.
Is Brendan now also saying he didn’t hear that Marsh was ‘scouting ahead’… which he DID admit to hearing in his Wildfire Today interview… or that he didn’t hear these ‘other things’ that he also seems to have admitted hearing when being interviewed by Bill Gabbert?
Is Brendan really calling both Prescott City Attorney Jon Paladini and former Prescott Wildland Division Chief Darrell Willis complete LIARS… and that NO PART of that original story is true?…
…or is this ( still ) just over the semantics of whether or not someone would describe something they heard as an actual ORDER… or not?
And what about the Blue Ridge Hotshots?
Prescott City Attorney Jon Paladini said ( unequivocally ) that he heard from McDonough ( via Willis ) that the Blue Ridge Hotshots who had been moving the other 3 GM vehicles with Brendan heard all the same GM intra-crew radio traffic that he ( Brendan ) did.
It is HIGHLY unlikely that a City Attorney could have even known enough about the circumstances that afternoon to have even conceivably ‘made that up’.
It is MUCH more likely that even that part of the ‘story’ was exactly what Willis had told Paladini he heard from Brendan himself.
If Brendan thought he could ‘put and end to the speculation’ with just that one statement in an interview yesterday… he is mistaken.
In some ways ( now )… he’s just digging the hole even deeper and making it more important than ever for those Blue Ridge Hotshots to come forward and give their ‘side of the story’.
WTKTT and Woodsman,
Speaking of digging a hole any deeper, I’m taking advantage here to accept your apology Woodsman, from a week or so ago and apologize to you for taking this long to get back to you.
And I almost always post the word ‘NOT’ in caps. So, I was NOT as accurate as I could/should have been on my AZ WF Academy post.
I posted a thread on the 1999 Sadler Fire awhile back that you may find interesting:
http://www.investigativemedia.com/please-begin-yarnell-hill-fire-chapter-xx-here/#comment-332731
The article stated that: “Without passing judgment, he says they acted on the best information they had at the time.”
Really? Like leaving you perfectly good Safety Zone during aggressive to explosive fire behavior resulting from intense outflow winds from the best vantage point and probably the best Safety Zone on the entire YH Fire ….?
That is NOT a good example of a Crew that “… acted on the best information they had at the time.”
It also stated “He doesn’t know why the crew took the path that led them down from safety atop a blackened ridge and into a trap they would not walk away from at the front of the wind-swept inferno.”
A bit disingenuous here maybe by referring to ‘the path’ that GMHS took rather than WHY they left their perfectly good Safety Zone.
The article states: “he says each firefighter should be outfitted with locators that continuously transmit locations to command centers, ….”
Tracking devices are definitely NOT a good idea and a Pie-in-the Sky, feel good answer to a problem that only existed on the YH Fire because they failed to comply with the “C” prong of LCES and Fire Order No. 7 to ‘maintain prompt communication with your … supervisor and adjoining forces.’
We do NOT need tracking devices! This is just another ‘Attack of the Good Idea People.
It also states: ‘“The system we have isn’t working, period,” he writes. “Guys are dying in the same exact scenarios that were killing hotshots fifty or seventy-five years ago. The exact same scenarios.”’
The ‘system’ is working just fine WHEN you comply with the WFF Rules, PERIOD, and you recognize the blatantly obvious Watch Out Situations and other indicators that tell you to disengage, stay put in the black, or whatever.
There are thousands of WFF’s every fire season that are in fact remaining alive BECAUSE they are following the ‘system’ of WFF Rules, PERIOD!
And I wonder if McDonough will reveal in his book, his SAIT and ADOSH interview statements regarding:
(1) That he was actually TWICE looking for a DEPLOYMENT SITE from his Grader site Lookout post when he hit his way-too-close trigger point, and
(2) Fire Order No. 10 (Fight fire aggressively having provided for safety first) as being ‘Hillbilly’ and how ‘smart … much smarter’ the GMHS were.
I seriously doubt he will reveal either of those.
Reply to Robert the Second (RTS) post on April 23, 2016 at 6:06 pm
>> RTS said…
>>
>> The article stated that: “Without passing judgment, he says
>> they acted on the best information they had at the time.”
>>
>> Really? Like leaving you perfectly good Safety Zone during
>> aggressive to explosive fire behavior resulting from intense
>> outflow winds from the best vantage point and probably the
>> best Safety Zone on the entire YH Fire ….?
>>
>> That is NOT a good example of a Crew that “… acted on the
>> best information they had at the time.”
“Acted”… for what reason… when they were already right where they needed to be?
That’s still the 19 million dollar question.
And for whatever reason they were ‘taking action’ when that ‘action’ wasn’t even necessary or safe… to then say they ‘acted on the best information they had’ is just crap. They did NOT have all the information they NEEDED to pull off such a risky move the way they did it… and that was no one’s fault but their own.
– Know what your fire is doing at all times.
– Base all actions on current and expected behavior of the fire.
– Unburned fuel between you and the fire.
– Cannot see main fire, not in contact with anyone who can.
– On a hillside where rolling material can ignite fuel below.
– Weather is getting hotter and drier.
– Wind increases and/or changes direction.
– Getting frequent spot fires across line.
– Terrain and fuels make escape to safety zones difficult.
etc. etc.
The Hachette Book Group ( the actual publisher of Brendan McDonough’s and Stephan Talty’s book ) has a link where you can already read some of the book online.
http://openbook.hbgusa.com/openbook/9780316308151
The book’s PROLOGUE is the story of McDonough and Christopher MacKenzie almost burning themselves to death in a botched drip-torch operation as Granite Mountain intially responded to the Doce fire, near Prescott, just 12 days before Yarnell.
It’s the story where McDonough and MacKenzie literally ‘waded’ into thick brush that was over their heads and only when fully ’embedded’ in the dry-as-a-bone tall brush did they light and start using their drip-torches.
Things started ( of course ) exploding all around them and they both had to throw their drip-torches away because there were igniting everything around them… and haul ass back to the road. They almost didn’t make it and only got out through the thick brush by crawling on their hands and knees to break out of it and collapse near the side of the road ( minus two drip-torches ).
More documented “Bad decisions with good outcomes” for Granite Mountain… and right there being used as the PROLOUGE for even McDonough’s new ‘tome’.
It then goes on into Chapter One… which just starts with “I grew up about four hundred miles from Prescott…” and is then nothing but ‘background’ on McDonough himself.
>> RTS also said…
>>
>> It also stated “He doesn’t know why the crew took the path
>> that led them down from safety atop a blackened ridge and
>> into a trap they would not walk away from at the front of the
>> wind-swept inferno.”
>>
>> A bit disingenuous here maybe by referring to ‘the path’
>> that GMHS took rather than WHY they left their perfectly
>> good Safety Zone.
In his interview from some time back with Bill Gabbert at Wildfire Today, Brendan DID say he would at least talk ( in this book ) about what he, himself, THINKS ‘happened’ and what the WHY might have been.
——————————————————————————
The book, he says, is about his life – his background, drug problems, burglary conviction, and becoming a father at age 19. “That’s what I’m saying in the book,” he adds. “I’m sharing the stories and the great memories I have of them, and I’m telling my stories about Yarnell – what I saw, how I felt, and what I think happened.”
He says the publisher promised a bonus if the book sells a lot of copies, and McDonough says he’ll donate some of that to a non-profit organization. “But I am going to take care of my family, I’m going to make sure I have food on the table. A lot of people think I should donate all the money back from the book; I don’t have the funds to do that. I’m like anyone else. I just have the title of Yarnell Hill Lone Survivor.
——————————————————————————
>> RTS also said…
>>
>> The article states: “he says each firefighter should be outfitted
>> with locators that continuously transmit locations to command
>> centers, ….”Tracking devices are definitely NOT a good idea
>> and a Pie-in-the Sky, feel good answer to a problem that only
>> existed on the YH Fire because they failed to comply with
>> the “C” prong of LCES and Fire Order No. 7 to ‘maintain
>> prompt communication with your … supervisor and \
>> adjoining forces.’
>>
>> We do NOT need tracking devices! This is just another
>> ‘Attack of the Good Idea People.
It’s the year 2016. There could EASILY be ‘tracking devices’… and at least one of the GM Hotshots ( Kevin Woyjeck ) actually DID have real-time ‘tracking’ ON that fateful day ( on his iPhone ).
So what?
Someone has to be WATCHING that information and making heads or tails out of it… and be empowered to do ‘interventions’ ( and have enough ‘situational awareness’ themselves to even know when that might be necessary ) or it’s just useless data.
Wildfire Today
Article Title: Father used phone app to track his son on Yarnell Hill Fire
http://wildfiretoday.com/2015/05/16/father-used-phone-app-to-track-his-son-on-yarnell-hill-fire/
From the article…
—————————————————————————
Using a smart phone application called “Find My Friends”, Joe Woyjeck who works for the Los Angeles County Fire Department, could see the location of his son, Kevin Woyjeck.
On the morning of June 30, Joe Woyjeck was playing with his dog in the front yard of his Southern California home.
He clicked on his phone. An icon representing his son popped up on a map. The phone said he was somewhere outside the community of Yarnell.
Later on, Joe would regret that he didn’t save a screen shot of that map. But at that moment, he didn’t know he would have a reason to do so. He was just taking a peek, as the two always did.
—————————————————————————
So according to this… Kevin Woyjeck DID have “Find My Friends” running on his smartphone on Sunday, June 30, 2013… and it WAS showing his location ‘out there’ on the ridge ‘outside the community of Yarnell’. That means if his father ( or ANYONE ) had really wanted to… he could have kept ‘refreshing’ the APP and seen his location at all times that day… including the path taken ( and exactly when ) towards the Boulder Springs Ranch.
Technology isn’t the problem. It’s already here.
It’s WHO is supposed to be WATCHING / INTERPRETING the data.
( Continued next Reply so more links can be posted )
The part WTKTT writes about Donut and MacKensie nearly getting caught in the Doce fire brings to mind the Yarnell fire. Exact same type brush in both areas–It is only about 30 miles as the crow flies from the Yarnell incident and was overrun with the exact same manzanita brush the men were caught in. He tell the truth about having to crawl through places to get out in time. The men had the same situation at the death basin they were ordered into. There was no running but more like scrambling involved.
It’s hard to figure out WHAT author Stephen Talty was trying to accomplish by using that McDonough / MacKenzie near-entrapment on the Doce fire story as the actual PROLOGUE for this ‘My Lost Brothers’ thing.
If author Stephen Talty thought that was some good of good, EXCITING intro for the book that would show just how dangerous Wildland Firefighting can be… and how that incident totally scared the shit out of Brendan to the point where he almost up and quit right there on the Doce Fire…
…I don’t think Talty accomplished his ‘purpose’.
Even if you didn’t know anything about Wildland Firefighting, and how you often “fight fire with fire” and light backburns and stuff… the way that PROLOGUE is written just leaves you with one impression about what McDonough and MacKenzie did that day… and how they had to throw away their drip torches to survive and come CRAWLING out of the thick brush.
“What a bunch of DUMBASSES”.
Whether the fuels were the same or different on the Doce Fire is irrelevant. Every fire is different and so is every fuel type.
Rather than saying “Just like on the Doce fire….” Do an analysis of what you got on the Yarnell fire and act accordingly.
Complacency kills… As does fatigue that leads to complacency… Just another scrub fire in the Arizona desert, what could go wrong????
( Continued from above… )
>> RTS also said…
>>
>> It also states: ‘“The system we have isn’t working, period,” he
>> writes. “Guys are dying in the same exact scenarios that
>> were killing hotshots fifty or seventy-five years ago. The
>> exact same scenarios.”’
>>
>> The ‘system’ is working just fine WHEN you comply with
>> the WFF Rules, PERIOD, and you recognize the blatantly
>> obvious Watch Out Situations and other indicators that
>> tell you to disengage, stay put in the black, or whatever.
>>
>> There are thousands of WFF’s every fire season that are in fact
>> remaining alive BECAUSE they are following the ‘system’ of
>> WFF Rules, PERIOD!
“Guys are dying in the same exact scenarios”.
Yes… they are.. but do you think Brendan even knows that the ‘exact common scenarios’ for the deaths were the failure to fully observe all the rules of engagement… exactly as was the case in Yarnell on June 30, 2013?
>> RTS also said…
>>
>> And I wonder if McDonough will reveal in his book, his SAIT
>> and ADOSH interview statements regarding:
>>
>> (1) That he was actually TWICE looking for a DEPLOYMENT
>> SITE from his Grader site Lookout post when he hit his
>> way-too-close trigger point, and
>>
>> (2) Fire Order No. 10 (Fight fire aggressively having provided
>> for safety first) as being ‘Hillbilly’ and how ‘smart … much
>> smarter’ the GMHS were.
>>
>> I seriously doubt he will reveal either of those.
I also doubt it… but we shall see.
It’s fascinating to already see, however, that Brendan is know abandoning his ‘story’ about his ‘rescue’ being “No big whoop” ( as he told investigators ) in favor of the more ‘exciting’ version that he was (quote from the book) “runninig for his life”.
I guess he ( and Stephen Talty and the publishers ) realized that “no big whoop” doesn’t sell books… but I also didn’t think he realized he would end up now CONFIRMING that ADOSH and WFA investigator’s conclusions… and the resulting workplace safety violations.
>> RTS also said…
>>
>> WTKTT and Woodsman,
>>
>> Speaking of digging a hole any deeper, I’m taking advantage
>> here to accept your apology Woodsman, from a week or so
>> ago and apologize to you for taking this long to get back to you.
>>
>> And I almost always post the word ‘NOT’ in caps.
>> So, I was NOT as accurate as I could/should have been on
>> my AZ WF Academy post.
Just to wrap up that discussion from below… the actual ‘point’ of the original post was to just show that Arizona Wildfire Academy had FINALLY gotten around, themselves, to actually ADMITTING ( on their own public website ) that they did, in fact, give their 205 “Southwestern Wildland Firefighter of the Year Award” to “Brian Frisby and the Blue Ridge Hotshots”.
After they had been purposely REFUSING to ‘announce’ that on their OWN public media outlets ( website and Facebook ) for so long… I actually didn’t think they were EVER going to ‘admit it’ via their own public outlet(s).
And I DO still agree with you that it was most likely some kind of “thanks for keeping your mouths shut award”.
But there really is no question ( now that we see the photograph of Brian Frisby accepting the award ) that Brian Frisby really WAS there at that Banquet at the ‘Prescott Resort’ on Tuesday, March 8, 2016… the same night YOU were ( supposedly ) there.
The PROOF ( that Frisby WAS there, THAT night ) is in the photograph itself.
Here ( again ) is a link to that photograph of Frisby receiving the award that just recently appeard on the AWIMA’s own public website dedicated to their ‘Southwestern Firefighter of the Year’ page. It’s the same photograph used in their ‘2016 Final Report’ document…
http://www.azwildfireacademy.org/Wildland-Firefighter-of-the-Year.html
Unlike previous banquets where there ended up being ‘tons’ of public photographs emerging following one of these AWIMA ‘banquets’… this year there are only 3 other known ‘photographs’ that have appeared.
They are the ones that AWIMA Director Tony Sciacca himself published on the AWIMA public Facebook page the day after the banquet… and the ones where he said awards were given… but then ( mysteriously ) refused to say ( publicly ) to WHO… like he was actually AFRAID to ‘announce’ it, or something.
These 3 photographs that Sciacca ‘published’ from the Tuesday night banquet were ONLY of the ‘Honor Ceremony’ that took place at the banquet with the ‘folding of the flag’ and the ‘honoring the fallen’ ceremony which is now ( permanently ) part of the annual banquet.
THOSE 3 photographs ( as originally published by Sciacca ) are here…
https://www.facebook.com/113390165360151/photos/pcb.1140263299339494/1140262919339532/?type=3&theater
These (3) photos taken at the Tuesday night banquet show several important ‘details’…
1. There was a ‘projection screen’ in-use that evening behind the small ‘stage’. The image being shown on the screen is the AWIMA custom logo that also contains the motto ‘Esse Quam Videri’ at the top.
2. Just to the right of the small ‘stage’ and the projection screen, there is a ‘serving table’ containing several stainless steel food containers stacked on top of each other. The container on the top still has clear ‘plastic’ wrapped around it. This appears to have been just a ‘food’ or ‘condiments’ or ‘drink’ station set up for the banquet that evening.
3. On the right edge of the photo showing the flag being folded, we see Arizona Forestry Jeff Whitney, wearing a tan jacket and a blue shirt.
Now look again at the ‘new’ photograph that has surfaced showing Brian Frisby actually ‘accepting’ the AWIMA award.
You will notice the following…
1. Jeff Whitney ( standing on Frisby’s left as he accepts the award ) is wearing the same ‘tan jacket with blue shirt’ as seen in Sciacca’s photos taken at the Tuesday night banquet during the flag folding ceremony.
2. The exact same ‘stainless steel food containers’ are seen on that ‘table’ just to the right of the ‘stage’… exactly as they are seen in Sciacca’s other photos taken that same night.
3. The ‘projector’ is still RUNNING when the photo of Frisby accepting the award was taken… and it is showing the exact same AWIMA ‘Esse Quam Videri’ logo as is seen in ALL of Sciacca’s photos taken that same Tuedsay evening.
Some of the ‘projection’ is even shown appearing on Todd Abel’s cowboy hat there as he stands to Frisby’s right while Frisby was ‘accepting’ the award and the ‘engraved Pulaski’.
The AWIMA only had that banquet room at the Prescott Resort reserved for that one night ( Tuesday, March 8, 2016 ). For them to have ‘staged’ the photograph with Frisby on some OTHER night means they would have had to have returned to the same room… made sure the ‘condiments’ table and the ‘metal containers’ were set up exactly the same way they were on the Tuesday night… and then made sure the projector was ON and loaded with the exact same LOGO image from the Tuesday night… and also have told Jeff Whitney to be sure and were the same tan jacket and blue shirt he had been wearing on Tuesday night.
Followup…
You won’t find the actual ‘Esse Quam Videri’ custom logo created for the ‘Arizona Wildfire Incident and Management Academy’ ( AWIMA ) that was used in the projector at the Tuesday, March 8, 2016 awards banquet anywhere on their own website…
…but Tony Sciacca did post this ‘logo’ to the AWIMA public Facebook page back on November 30 of 2015.
It’s the ‘logo’ that is also appearing on the projection screen in the ( only ) 3 photos that Sciacca posted from this year’s banquet during the the ‘Honor Guard’ ceremony… and which is also STILL on the screen behind Brian Frisby and Todd Abel and Jeff Whitney as they ‘posed’ with Frisby while he was accepting the 205 ‘Firefighter of the Year award’ that same night.
That logo is seen HERE… on the AWIMA public ‘Facebook’ page…
https://www.facebook.com/permalink.php?story_fbid=1076497362382755&id=113390165360151
Typo above.
Meant to say… “the 2015 Firefighter of the Year Award’.
WTKTT
Your investigation seems to lake some simple fact.
RTS was not supposedly there at the Banquet.
There is written proof he was there as stated By Holly Neil.
She stated as did RTS that they sat together at he banquet and had conversations with each other.
She popped in with that information while we were discussing the Banquet.
If RTS did not see Brian receive the award then he did not see him. For what ever reason there was nothing to gain by RTS.
I do not question your research on the pictures. If you want to press RTS so be it. Your snarky remarks are out of tune with your canny ability to research the recorded statements in this thread that would also show RTS at the Banquet.
RTS was (Supposedly) there is just playing a game that you already know the answer to.
Woops Lack not Lake.
WTKTT in case you don’t remember.
http://www.investigativemedia.com/please-begin-yarnell-hill-fire-chapter-xix-here/#comment-329481
Not Sat together but Met at the Banquet.
As stated above.
So if Frisby was headed out to contact Marsh it would mean that Marsh was either at the Ranch or Near the Ranch since that would be the only way to get to Marsh from the Old Grader area where Donut was picked up. It would also mean Marsh and Frisby were having regular communication. Also if Frisby and Donut were being overtaken by the fire reversal it means Marsh at that time had to know from Frisby and others listening on the radio that they were already in deep shit by bringing those men down. The Grader area is not that far from where they were and the fire had already passed the lower end of the two ridges that separated the brush trap from the fire. In fact the fire had gone past that point by 11:30 as we watched it so it was quite a ways south and when those 45mph winds came they had a straight and direct path not only at Donut but straight across flat land with an upward slope up toward the basin. Every 10 degrees doubles the advance rate of a fire so it had about a doubling of speed on top of the wind factor behind it. No wonder witnesses said the big eyes of Donut and others leaving out of there that locals residents witnessed as they left the Sesame Street area convinced them that they better get out too.
I have to believe that sometime soon Donut’s avoidance of the truth will come out. He has withheld evidence from the beginning and continues, the guilt toward keeping that information from the loved ones has to have been heavy.
Actually there was one other alternative for Marsh meeting Frisby and more likely than any other–Marsh could have been headed down to move equipment–the direct path to the buggies would have been sensible since they knew the fire was headed their direction and those would be burned–but the fire advanced on them too quickly and there was lots of heavy duty brush between the Helms and the buggies so Marsh must have called off the meeting seeing he needed to get back to his men to see how good the turkey roasters were going to work. Likely, if they were like Donut they did not know how to properly deploy. Ted Putnam explained to me that you need to lie down and use all fours to extend the blanket above you–but I say even that under the intense heat of that type inferno there was no hope except to run to the boulders.
Reply to Charlie post on April 23, 2016 at 10:56 pm
>> Charlie said…
>>
>> So if Frisby was headed out to contact Marsh it would
>> mean that Marsh was either at the Ranch or Near the
>> Ranch since that would be the only way to get to
>> Marsh from the Old Grader area where Donut was
>> picked up.
Based on all the (currently) available evidence… NO… that’s not possible.
At 1528, and just before Byron Kimball’s criticial “40-50 mph winds and fireline reversals expected” weather update, is when Eric Marsh asked Brian Frisby to come and meet with him ‘face-to-face’ for the second time that day.
There is no evidence that this second ‘face-to-face’ that Marsh was now requesting ( at exactly 3:28 PM ) was supposed to be anywhere other than where Frisby and Brown had already met with Marsh and Steed earlier in the day ( from 11:55 AM to 12:25 PM ) up there near the ‘anchor point’ where Granite Mountain had been working all day.
So it is still ASSUMED that Eric Marsh himself would have been WAITING right there near that ‘known meeting location’ for Frisby to arrive… up until the moment when Frisby called Marsh and informed him he had just ‘stumbled across’ Brendan and that he was no longer ‘headed up there’ for that second face-to-face.
So given the fact that Frisby did not INFORM Marsh that he was NOT going to make it up there until 3:40 PM… then it is also assumed that would be the earliest possible time Eric Marsh could have then ‘changed his plans’ and taken off from the ‘anchor point’ to start ‘scouting ahead’ to the Boulder Springs Ranch.
If Marsh had ‘taken off’ to the south and started ‘scouting ahead’ to the Boulder Springs Ranch any earlier than 3:40 PM… and Frisby had NOT ‘accidentally’ stumbled across Brendan… then it is highly likely that Brian Frisby would have just continued his journey on up to the anchor point for the expected ‘face-to-face’… only to then discover that Marsh wasn’t even there for the meeting HE ( Marsh ) had requested.
It would have resulted in an exchange between Steed and Frisby, circa 3:44 PM when Frisby would have finally ‘arrived’ up there… that would have gone something like this…
Brian Frisby: Okay… I’m here now. Where’s Eric?
Jesse Steed: Well… he took off to the south already to ‘scout’ that way towards that Boulder Springs Ranch thing.
Brian Frisby: What the fuck?
So no… the ‘evidence’ still just suggests that Eric WAS right there at the ‘anchor point’ area waiting for Frisby to arrive ( since Eric KNEW he had agreed to the meeting and WAS on his way ‘up there’ ) until the moment when Frisby called him on the radio ( right at 3:40 PM ) and informed that he was NOT going to make the ‘meeting’… and was going to evacuate Brendan instead.
>> Charlie also said…
>>
>> It would also mean Marsh and Frisby were having
>> regular communication.
Actually… THAT is most likely true.
It is highly likely that both Brian Frisby AND Trueheart Brown had more ‘conversations’ with Eric Marsh and Jesse Steed than we are ( as yet ) aware of.
We still don’t even know what Steed, Marsh, Frisby and Brown actually talked about for the 30 minutes they were together, in-person, for that first face-to-face meeting… other than some scant reports about discussing the piss-poor breifings, some radio problems, whether Frisby and Brown could give them more ‘Gatorade and cubies’… and if they would ‘deliver’ Brendan down to that lookout mound.
>> Charlie also said…
>>
>> Also if Frisby and Donut were being overtaken by the fire
>> reversal it means Marsh at that time had to know from
>> Frisby and others listening on the radio that they were
>> already in deep shit by bringing those men down.
It wouldn’t be for another 10-15 minutes following Frsiby’s ‘rescue’ of Brendan before we would hear Jesse Steed reporting to Marsh “I copy… and it’s almost made it to that two-track road we walked in on”.
That still sounds like Jesse Steed WARNING Marsh ( since he was, apparently, not in a position to see it himself ) that the fire was moving VERY quickly. Marsh seems to have ignored that… and ended up ‘ordering’ Jesse to bring the crew ‘out of the safe black’ anyway.
Frisby ‘rescued’ Brendan at 3:40 PM.
We would not hear ( and see with our own eyes in the MacKenzie video ) Steed telling Marsh “It’s almost made it to that two-track” until 3:55 PM.
During those 15 minutes is when Marsh had taken off to the south from the anchor point to ‘scout ahead’ to the Boulder Springs Ranch.
It’s currently a ‘consensus’ that the REASON Jesse Steed was informing Marsh about exactly where the fireline was circa 3:55 PM is because Marsh was already far to the south ‘scouting’ and Marsh was NOT in a position to see clearly for himself what Jesse and the Crew could see from back there in the ‘safe black’ at the anchor point.
But apparently Marsh either did not ‘believe’ anything Jesse was telling him about the fireline location ( and speed )… or Marsh just didn’t care what Steed thought… because they ended up leaving that ‘safe-black’ anyway after Marsh (supposedly) ordered them to do so.
>> Charlie also said…
>>
>> I have to believe that sometime soon Donut’s avoidance of
>> the truth will come out. He has withheld evidence from
>> the beginning and continues, the guilt toward keeping
>> that information from the loved ones has to have been heavy.
Brendan STILL seems to be playing his “ask me the right question and I might give you the right answer” game(s).
Even in the AZCENTRAL interview just 48 hours ago… it appears that his response of “I did NOT hear that” was simply made after being asked a pointed question such as “Did you hear Eric Marsh ORDER Jesse Steed to take that crew out of the safe black?”
So Brendan just ‘answered the question he was asked’ and could be playing his own ‘semantics game’ and thinking he’s being truthful because he, himself, doesn’t consider whatever he DID hear to be ‘an ORDER’.
Even Bill Gabbert at Wildfire Today totally botched his interview with Brendan and simply wasn’t ‘asking the right questions’.
I hope someone who DOES know how to ‘interview’ someone gets Brendan on camera during this ‘book signing’ tour he’s about to do and finally just makes Brendan stop playing these namby-pamby “ask me the right question and I might give you the right answer” game(s).
I hope someone lets the video camera roll and just says…
“Tell us EVERYTHING YOU HEARD on the radio while you were moving the GM vehicles. ALL of it.”
Anyone have a link to image of Marty Cole ?
Reply to Joy A. Collura post on April 24, 2016 at 10:54 pm
>> Joy A. Collura asked…
>>
>> Anyone have a link to image of Marty Cole ?
Just Google…
“Marty Cole” Facebook
Be sure and put quotes around the name “Marty Cole” in the search query.
The very first Google Search result will be a link to his PUBLIC Facebook page.
His Facebook ‘Avatar’ is a cartoon. It’s a picture of ‘Wily Coyote’ strangling the RoadRunner.
Actual PUBLIC Facebook name is ‘Martin Cole’…
https://www.facebook.com/martin.cole.165?ref=br_rs
Scroll down just 1 page and there’s a photo of an early version of the Granite Mountain Hotshots… when Marty Cole was the ‘Superintendent’.
They are all sitting/standing on a rock in Oregon during the ‘second year of the crew’. Marty Cole is the one in the RED helmet standing at the very LEFT edge of the photo.
Direct link to that PUBLIC photograph on his PUBLIC Facebook page would be…
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=545345345492776&set=pb.100000519452514.-2207520000.1461568263.&type=3&theater
Comments on the photo itself ( including one from Marty Cole himself )…
——————————————————————————-
Comment from Daniel Algara – December 15, 2012 at 9:45pm
Is this before you guys became a G.M. IHC right. Still pretty cool
Reply from Martin Cole – December 16, 2012 at 9:13am
Oregon second year of the crew
——————————————————————————-
Followup…
If you then just Google…
“Martin Cole” Prescott
The third search result is a link to an article that ran in the ‘Chino Valley Review’ on June 15, 2011, featuring local Chino Valley resident and firefighter ‘Martin Cole’ and his son, Tyler.
That PUBLIC article was all about Tyler Cole ‘following in his father’s footsteps’ and becoming a firefighter for the Prescott National Forest.
There is also a very good ( closeup ) PUBLIC photo of Martin Cole and his son Tyler that is at the top of the article.
When the article was written ( 2011 )… Marty Cole had just retired ( with full pension ) from the Prescott Fire Department but ( as mentioned in the article ) he was now immediately ‘double dipping’ out of retirement and being sent out with Incident Management Teams in and around Arizona and New Mexico.
The Chino Valley Review
Article Title: Into the heat with my dad.
Published: 6/15/2011 by Diane DeHamer ( Feature Writer )
http://cvrnews.com/main.asp?SectionID=74&SubSectionID=114&ArticleID=53876
From the article…
———————————————————————-
Firefighting is what Martin Cole has done since 1980, until this past May when he retired from the Prescott Fire Department. Just as Martin was retiring, his son, Tyler, hired on with the Prescott National Forest to be a firefighter, too.
“I got into firefighting because of my dad being a firefighter, and I’ve wanted to do this since I was little,” Tyler said.
Although Martin retired from Prescott Fire, he is still fighting fires, only now with the Prescott National Forest. He just returned from fighting a fire (Osha) in New Mexico.
Martin and Tyler’s family is proud of Martin’s work and happy that Tyler is following in his dad’s footsteps.
“I love it that my son, Tyler, has gotten into this work, too,” Martin said. “I hope we get to work together someday.”
Tyler is excited to begin his firefighting career, too.
“I’ve always admired my dad’s firefighting work. I hope I can do as well.”
———————————————————————-
Here is a DIRECT jumplink to the PUBLIC photo of Marty Cole and his son Tyler that accompanied this Chino Valley News article…
Marty Cole is on the LEFT, in this photograph.
http://cvrnews.com/SiteImages/Article/53876a.jpg
And here is another PUBLIC (closeup) photo of Marty Cole taken just
90 days or so before the Yarnell tragedy.
Marty Cole has always been very active with the ‘Arizona Wildfire Incident and Management Academy’ ( AWIMA ) there in Prescott… and in March of 2013, just 3 months before the Yarnell tragedy, Marty Cole was one of the ‘Operations Section Chiefs’ for the 2013 AWIMA. ( They run the Academy like it’s an ‘Incident’ and all the managers get assigned standard ICS titles like ‘IC’ and ‘OPS’ and ‘DIVS’ and stuff ).
Marty Cole’s birthday fell in the middle of the Academy week that year… and this PUBLIC Facebook post with a picture of him was part of the other AWIMA people saying ‘Happy Birthday’ to Marty Cole.
Since this is only 3 months before the Yarnell tragedy… this ‘closeup’ of Cole is probably the closest known PUBLIC photo of him prior to him being hired as a ‘Safety Officer’ for they Yarnell Hill Fire on Sunday, June 30, 2013.
Direct link to this PUBLIC AWIMA photo posted on their PUBLIC Facebook page…
https://www.facebook.com/113390165360151/photos/a.552627881436375.1073741825.113390165360151/552627891436374/?type=3&theater
Marty Cole is the one who was driving that all-white Toyota Tacoma pickup with the camper top that appears at the Ranch House Restauarant and in the Russ Reason ( Rest in Peace ) video.
It had a white magnetic sign on the side with RED letters that just said “FIRE”, and it was parked on the western edge of the RHR parking lot, just south of that northern driveway leading into the RHR itself.
Marty Cole was one of the ‘Safety Officers’ ( along with Tony Sciacca ) that was ‘hired’ for Sunday, June 30, 2013 in Yarnell… but both he and Sciacca weren’t actually ‘ordered up’ until Sunday morning itself. Sciacca got there first but it was still mid-afternoon and Sciacca was still just getting ‘oriented’ to what was going on in Yarnell when the deployment took place.
Marty Cole, however, elected to NOT depart the Prescott area for Yarnell that afternoon UNTIL he got all his ‘paperwork’ delivered so he could be sure the order went through. Consequently, ‘Safety Office’ Marty Cole didn’t arrive in Yarnell until literally just MINUTES for the deployment took place.
In the Russ Reason video… Brendan McDonough is seen standing there at the back of Marty Cole’s all-white pickup, hanging his head and looking distraught, and the taller FF near him ( presumably a Blue Ridge Hotshot ) is ‘comforting’ Brendan.
Marty Cole would then be the one to ‘collect’ Brendan there at the RHR parking lot, put his gear in the back of his all-white truck… and then drive Brendan up to the ICP at the Model Creek School in Peeples Valley. It is also assumed that Marty Cole was then the one who drove Brendan back to Prescott that Sunday night.
WTKTT–Donut says 19 minutes after Frisby picked him up he was sitting in his truck when he heard Marsh (actually Steed was calling) saying they were in a flaming front. Exactly where was he sitting in that truck when he heard that. I would guess they took about 10 minutes by that ATV to get to the truck and about that much time to get out to the Ranch House Café. Was that where he heard this. That 19 minutes tells plenty of how fast that fire was moving since he had barely escaped his lookout point it had to be very close to his position and Frisby. Frisby was escaping the thing as well and must have seen the fire moving from his high position where he intended to meet Marsh.
That whole bunch made themselves look like amateur wild land fire fighters. I suppose what is amazing is the fact they had not long before fought the Doce fire under almost identical conditions. It seems they were fighting these fires like one would fight a burning building–not much worry to weather reports and just contain the blaze so it does not spread to nearby buildings. No need for a lookout, the boss is that and dishes out the orders according to what he thinks and that does not include wild land fire fighter way of thinking and use of LCES
Reply to Charlie post on April 25, 2016 at 8:37 am
>> Charlie said…
>>
>> Donut says 19 minutes after Frisby picked him up he was
>> sitting in his truck when he heard Marsh (actually Steed
>> was calling) saying they were in a flaming front. Exactly
>> where was he sitting in that truck when he heard that.
19 minutes is WILDLY WRONG. Where did you see/hear him say that?
Brendan was climbing into the Blue Ridge Polaris Ranger UTV to be ‘evacuated’ and Frisby was now informing Marsh he was no longer coming up for that second face-to-face meeting right around 3:40 PM.
Jesse Steed’s first botched-MAYDAY call about being “in front of the flaming front” would not take place for just 1 mnute shy of one full HOUR after that ( at 4:39 PM ).
>> Charlie also said…
>>
>> I would guess they took about 10 minutes by that ATV
>> to get to the truck and about that much time to get
>> out to the Ranch House Café. Was that where he
>> heard this?
The first part of above is inaccurate. Brendan ( and everyone else ) would not hear the first MAYDAY call for a full hour after Frisby had rescued Brendan. That MAYDAY call from Steed didn’t hit the A2G channel until 4:39 PM.
However… the second part of above is accurate.
Yes… it is MOST likely that the entire ‘Blue Ridge Convoy with GM vehicles’ had JUST arrived at the parking lot of the Ranch House Restaurant ( after having just evacuated down from the Youth Camp at the end of Shrine Road ) when Steed’s first 4:39 PM MAYDAY hit the A2G channel.
They ( Blue Ridge and GM vehicle drivers ) were actually still probably in the act of PARKING all the vehicles there in the RHR parking lot when Steed’s first MAYDAY would hit the A2G channel.
Blue Ridge Hotshot Jonathan Papich took 2 photographs from the passenger side of one of the Blue Ridge Crew Carriers just as it was about to turn into the driveway of the Ranch House Restaurant.
He took both photos with his network-connected Apple iPhone 4, so the timestamps can be considered totally accurate.
Both photos were taken looking WEST from that passenger side of the BR Crew Carrier… and the second photo was taken just 7 seconds after the first one. Both photos show the ‘smoke column’ exactly where it was in relation to the box canyon at the time they were taken ( 4:35 PM ).
Those would be his photos with filenames…
IMG_3957.JPG – Taken at exactly 1635:06 ( 4:35:06 PM )
IMG_3958.JPG – Taken 7 seconds later, at exactly 1635:13 ( 4:35:13 PM )
So it can be assumed that some of the ‘convoy’ had already made it into the actual parking lot of the Ranch House Restaurant by the time Steed’s first MAYDAY call hit the A2G channel 4 minutes after Papich took his photos… at 4:39 PM.
Brendan McDonough was 2 vehicles back from the second Blue Ridge Crew Carrier in this ‘convoy’ down to the Ranch House Restaurant, so it can probably also be assumed Brendan had also just pulled the GM Superintendent Truck into the RHR parking lot just before the first MAYDAY call hit the A2G channel.
>> Charlie also said…
>>
>> That 19 minutes tells plenty of how fast
>> that fire was moving since he had barely escaped
>> his lookout point it had to be very close to his position
>> and Frisby. Frisby was escaping the thing as well and
>> must have seen the fire moving from his high position
>> where he intended to meet Marsh.
Frisby had not made it up to any kind of ‘high position’ when he accidentaly ( in Frsiby’s own words ) “stumbled across the lookout”.
Frisby also did not ‘stumble across’ Brendan at the ‘old grader’.
Brendan had walked down from his lookout mound the same way he had walked up, and he ’emerged’ from the brush not at the old-grader… but right there at that ‘T’ intersection just east of the old-grader. That’s how Frisby was able to ‘stumble across’ Brendan.
Frisby had no intentions of ‘passing by the old grader’ on that trip of his out to meet with Marsh up at the anchor point. As you know… that ‘road’ branches to the south and on up to the high ridge BEFORE you reach the old-grader.
If Brendan had not actually ’emerged’ from his hike down from his lookout mound right where he did, at the the ‘T intersection’ just east of the grader… Frisby would have ‘missed him’ completely and Frisby would have continued traveling up to the anchor point for the face-to-face with Marsh ( which was, at that time, the ONLY reason why Frisby was even headed that way ).
So whatever Frisby ‘saw’ that made him realized that both he and Brendan needed to turn around and get the fuck OUT of that area would have been what Frisby could see from that ‘T intersection’ there just east of the old-grader.
>> Charlie also said…
>>
>> That whole bunch made themselves look like amateur wild land
>> fire fighters. I suppose what is amazing is the fact they had not
>> long before fought the Doce fire under almost identical
>> conditions. It seems they were fighting these fires like one would
>> fight a burning building–not much worry to weather reports
>> and just contain the blaze so it does not spread to nearby
>> buildings. No need for a lookout, the boss is that and dishes
>> out the orders according to what he thinks and that does not
>> include wild land fire fighter way of thinking and use of LCES.
It was ( and hopefully in terms of numbers of dead ) shall remain…
“The Greatest Blunder in the History of Wildland Firefighting”.
And it would still behoove EVERYONE to know ( and UNDERSTAND )
WHY it happened… in order to prevent ( as much as humanly possible )
such a huge ‘blunder’ from ever happening again.
I do hereby officially apologize to Mr. Brendan McDonough, formerly known as our hapless hero who has shit for brains. I have been following Mr. McDonough illustrious career ever since I very publicly gave him unsolicited advice to go Yavapai Junior College and learn a good trade.
I strongly wrote that Mr. McDonough could NOT make a life for himself and his family by being a professional sad sack and a victim. I was wrong about that assumption just like I have been wrong about so many things in my life. MR. McDonough is living proof that no one should ever listen to me. That is all…please carry on.
Donut might be more cagey than we know Gary. Look how he is going with the flow of the cash boat. The sad sack act is getting him a sack of cash–I just wonder how sincere his act really is. I had heard he was a type of anomaly and often times annoyance to the group–and I wonder how he had precedence over Willis, since Willis was also a survivor of the group and working the fire as well. WTKTT tells of how he barely escaped as did Donut–yet Donut gets all the Bennies here. What gives?
In a world that bases success on results…it doesn’t matter how sincere Mr. Brendan McDonough is. All that matters IS the sackful of cash. And I have already stated without any reservations that Mr. McDonough is indeed far more cagey than I thought he was.
I watched him do the Jack Links infomercial and this young man has a bright future in front of him as a pitchman. Mr. McDonough was working alongside a highly experienced and decorated former full bird U.S. Air Force colonel and he held his own.
As a matter of fact, he did far more than hold his own…he was a stand out! I always try to admit it when I am wrong except when it comes to my dear wife (NO…I am King of Jungle) …and I was wrong about Mr. McDonough. So…
Not wrong at all Gary–you read his book before he wrote it.
In addition to the next ‘Charlie/OPSTEST’ ‘Fire Community’ run of the ‘Yarnell Hill Staff Ride’ taking place next week, it’s about to be a busy first week of May on the ‘publishing’ front.
BOTH the Fernanda Santos book and Brendan Mcdonough’s “Lost Brothers” book are going to be officially released right on top of each other. The Santos book on May 3 and the McDonough thing on May 5.
There have already been advanced copies of both books floating around. The Santos one is going to be nothing more than just another “Who were the guys that actually died” thing just like the Kyle Dickman book.. and pretty much ditto for the McDonough thing except it’s really just ‘all about him’.
The Arizona Republic ( AZCENTRAL ) hasn’t had anything to say about Yarnell for quite some time… but just today they indicated they are gearing up for the Yarnell book review bandwagon that’s about to go down.
Here is AZCENTRAL doing a pre-book-review book-review ( didn’t know there was such a thing ) for the McDonough book…
http://www.azcentral.com/story/opinion/op-ed/ej-montini/2016/04/21/montini-brendan-mcdonough-stephan-talty-yarnell-hill-fire/83343510/
Donut has “no clue” why they left the black. But he heard Marsh argue with Steed according to Willis. Best get all the perks while, he can, since when it is proven he does have a clue people might not be so happy with his continued withholding of the truth. Is it a case of the 5th?
Maybe Donut dont remember like you don’t remember…because I haven’t seen you tell the world yet how you met the man who spoke to the safety officer of yhf?
Hmm…
Had you are alive though…
Seldom Seen
[email protected]
http://Www.seldom seen jewelry.com
623-465-7725
See you on the trails Brenda and David.
Thank you bunches for the perfect gun engraving…
The guy before me was getting his engraved due to a divorce.. Too funny. I guess the man thinks making his mark is gonna keep a woman from taking everything.
Off I go back to the grind of the real world but highly recommend these people for engraving of guns…phones…knives…etc
Ma and Pa kettle fudge
Lesley and Gary Lesley
1015 S Lahiguera Green Valley Arizona 208-659-4373
Yummy fudge…
? how is DAVe turbyfils shelter comming along??… … he says a bettter sheltr wouldve saved them at 2000 degrees//??…. … bring it pls…
More public comments coming from family members following
the April/Beta ‘Yarnell Hill Fire Staff Ride’…
https://www.facebook.com/david.turbyfill.9?fref=ufi
—————————————————————————————
Public Comment by: DavidnShari Turbyfill – April 13 at 2:47pm
Just a note to Arizona State Fire leaders there in Phoenix . After 2 days last week of grueling inconsistencies and no accountability I will probably forever work on trying to forgive the actions that were taken and not taken on June 30th by Arizona fire leadership. It is very difficult to forgive when the forgiven find no fault
Shari Turbyfill ( Mother of Granite Mountain Hotshot Travis Turbyfill ).
—————————————————————————————-
Even as comments about how ‘disappointing’ and ‘inconsistent’ and ‘error filled’ the recent the April/Beta ‘Yarnell Hill Staff Ride’ was continue to appear from actual participants… the SECOND April run of this same ‘Yarnell Hill Staff Ride’ is about to take place.
This one is being called the ‘Charlie’ and/or the ‘OPS’ test, and it is still scheduled to take place in just a few days… circa April 26, 27.
The ‘invited participants’ for this next ‘run’ of the Staff Ride were originally slated to be ‘Community’ members… but Jeff Whitney and Don Boursier of Arizona Forestry ended up adjusting that expectation to ONLY mean “members of the FIRE Community”.
So invitations were ONLY sent to current or former FFs who were being ‘nominated’ via emails from various FFs back to Don’t Boursier.
Example nominees were FFs that were present and working the Yarnell Fire the weekend of June 28-30, 2016. The list included even FFs for whom the SAIT and Arizona Forestry originally made every attempt to HIDE their presence at, and their involvement in, the Yarnell Hill Fire.
FFs such as the ” Three Prescotteers”. The ‘off the radar’ hires for Sunday from the Prescott National Forest who all ended up as key witnesses to the deployment radio traffic and were also directly involved in the ground rescue mission, discovery of the bodies, and the securing of the deployment site. Jason Class on, KC ‘Bucky’ Howell and Aaron Hulburd.
It is not known if next week’s ‘Charlie’ Staff Ride’ for the ‘FF Community’ is based on the same ‘Staff Ride Guide’ as was just used for the ‘family members’ Beta run… or whether updates/changes have been made to the ‘Guide’ or the Stand presentations based on feedback and input from the family members.
The company subcontracted by US Forestry to help create this ‘Yarnell Staff Ride’ product always had BOTH of these scheduled April Staff Rides showing up on their own public ‘events’ website… but even now they are still trying to keep the fact that these ‘events’ are associated with the Yarnell Fire a ‘secret’.
They only list these Yarnell Staff Rides on their own public website as simply “The Project”.
They also just refer to next week’s Yarnell Staff Ride as an ‘OPTEST’.
OMNA International
Event Calendar – April, 2016
http://theomna.com/events.html
——————————–
Events Scheduled in 2016…
APRIL 2016
Project BETA – 5-8 April
Gettysburg 11-15 Apr USFWS
Fredericksburg-Chancellorsville 18-22 Apr ICACC
Project OPTEST – 26-27 April
——————————–
Whoops. Dumbphone spell checker farts and some typos up above.
The Yarnell Hill Fire was obviously in 2013, not 2016.
Spell checker changed Arizona Forestry employee Don Boursier’s name to “Don’t Boursier” and Prescott National Forest employee Jason Clawson’s name to “Jason Class on”.
SIDENOTE: Jason Clawson no longer works for Prescott National Forest. He did the day of the Yarnell tragedy… but subsequently left Prescott. He is still USFS employee and still in Arizona but working on another Forest.
**
** BAD DECISIONS WITH GOOD OUTCOMES
**
** THAT’S HOW WE ROLL!
Another interesting ‘comment’ that has appeared over on Mr. David Turbyfill’s ‘WAKE UP!!’ public Facebook thread.
https://www.facebook.com/YarnellFireRealities/?rc=p
This one would be almost hilarious… if it wasn’t so damn SCARY.
Some CURRENT Firefighter commenting that he and his unit have ( and will continue ) to make “Bad Decisions with Good Outcomes”, and he just hopes they can continue to be LUCKY.
Cus… you know… those piles of drywall and lumber are MUCH more important than our LIVES… right?
The “Normalization of Deviance”…
————————————————————————————
Comment by: Ski Saunders – April 17 at 11:30 PM
Yarnell was a tragedy.. Avoidable? Maybe.. Easy to second guess in hindsight.. Bad stuff happens to awesome people.. I wear a 19 sticker on my wildland hat.. Also I think of those in Mann gulch and Storm king mountain and mendo national forest as I roll to a wildfire call.. And a good dozen other places where firemen died.. I believe we will have more tragedies like this because people can’t know when a real blowup is going to happen.. Mind your 10s and 18s people.. I have rolled a call or two where we violated a bunch of them and always had them in my mind when I did so.. Here we are fighting fire down hill after dark in unfamiliar ground with fire raging up the hill at us.. Afterward I think back on how lucky we were and how I hope to not do it again but reality says it just may and.. Hopefully we may be lucky again.. Rest peacefully yarnell 19!
————————————————————————————
‘Ski Saunders’ own PUBLIC Facebook page is here…
https://www.facebook.com/ski.saunders?fref=ufi&rc=p
He is a firefighter who lives near Santa Rosa, California.
He is ( apparently ) an EMT/Firefighter for the Westport Volunteer Fire Department.
It does not surprise me at he Ski Saunders attitude.
Lots of crews are trying to make names for themselves, being the “bad ass” crew that overhead can count on in dicey situations to “make it happen”. I have seen them do some pretty strange stuff just to get a “rep” for being bad ass. I have seen crews that will not shower on a full 14 day tour, cause they love wearing the dirt like a badge of honour, they wont put on clean Nomex, if its stained with soot and chainsaw fuel and oil, even better, cause you look more bad assed…In some cases we have told crews that if you do not wash your hands, you will not be allowed to get in line for your meals. Its a potential health hazard.
Look at todays younger crowd… Adrenaline junkies trying to out do each other and them selves… Rock climbing, extreme mountain biking, X-Games, Red Bull I could go on forever. Part of the reason is todays technology.. The internet… You take a digital picture of you or your buddy doing a risky thing (on or off fire line), you post it to facebook, everyone sees you are badass, next thing you know someone forwards it onto someone else, next thing you know it goes viral… How do you think the extreme athletes get sponsors coming to them??
The dynamics of trying to become a bad ass are even worse within the crew ranks… Rookies trying to prove themselves so that they fit into the crew.
Scenario: Crew Boss and Supervisor say here is the plan for the day (a bit risky, lets say, not suicide mission)… Which of the below noted statements do you think would come out of the rookies mouth?
a) Excuse me sir, when we took our training, we learned the 10 and 18 and according to what we are about to do its contradicting Rule # X and Orders X,Y and Z. Should we reconsider..???
b) Hell yeah, giddy up, Boo Yah….
All fire crews world wide are more risk takers than anyone gives them credit for. Extremely safe and cautious crews get tagged as “pussies”, the other extreme get called “bad ass”… Which name would you want associated with your crews reputation???
On the morning they would all DIE…. the Granite Mountain Hotshots assembled in the ‘ready room’ at Station 7 and… as they would usually do… wrote down their own ‘readiness state’ on some whiteboard there on the wall.
NO ONE listed their ‘ready state’ on the morning of Sunday, June 30, 2016 as any higher than about 60 percent…
…but Brendan McDonough wrote down HIS ‘ready state’ as…
HELL YEAH!
I-am-immortal dipshits can try to kill THEMSELVES all day long if they want ( and they do )… but it’s supposed to be up to the ADULTS who are responsible for their behavior in a workplace to make sure they don’t succeed at it.
Even in Shakespeare’s time… ( and ALWAYS ) the ‘teenagers’ and ‘young men’ were playing the same “Look at what a badass I am” game.
“I would there were no age between sixteen and three-and-twenty, or that youth would sleep out the rest; for there is nothing in the between but getting wenches with child, wronging the ancientry, stealing, fighting”
William Shakespeare
A-winter-s-tale, act-3, scene-3
So we are back to ‘culture’ again… and what is ALLOWABLE ( and even ENCOURAGED ).
And make no mistake… ‘culture’ can KILL.
Actually… did rocksteady just absolutely ‘nail it’?
Do we know now EXACTLY what happened in Yarnell on June 30, 2013?
Even the ADULTS making the decisions out there on the ridge were still just over-the-top gung-ho can-do ranger-danger Pukie-the-clown bad-decisons-with-good-outcomes-is-how-we-roll save-structures-for-God-and-Country fucking juvenile delinquents with no ACTUAL adult supervision?
Rocksteady is 100% correct with his assessment of the machismo that is completely blatant on many handcrews that I have worked around in my 18 seasons of fighting wildland fires. Every year at my Fire Refresher, I preach to the younger firefighters that this job is not about who is the most physically fit or strongest, the one’s who succeed are always more mentally strong.
Many handcrews are so concerned about the perception of what others (overhead and/or other crews) think, they will take on “riskier” assignments in order to “prove” themselves. If they impress the “right” people, maybe they’ll get better assignments or stay on the fire for a longer period of time, which equals more $$$! Basically, more risk equates to more $$$, which can lead to a better reputation amongst the fire community, which can lead to more assignments, which equals more $$$! See what I did there?
Reply to Methods post on April 20, 2016 at 12:57 pm
>> Method said…
>>
>> See what I did there?
Yep. All too clearly.
Let us hope it is a small percentage if not they better start bringing BODY Bags to all the fires cause their going to need them as my old friend would say.
I am not hearing that from the current FF I talk to here in Twin Falls and Boise. If it is Type 2 crews and City and State Volunteers then there needs to be a real shake up.
WTKTT there never was Danger Rangers into the 90’s so will hope that is not a new norm.
Some crews trying to make a name for them selves are playing with DYNAMITE . This may be an explanation for some of the 10 and 18 are old or not relevant from several FF who have posted here and other places. That is just dam scary.
In 1973 when I was on the Safety First Sensing team we never in countered that through out R5 where our team hit every Forest and most districts all FF or red carded people that we could talk to and let them give us feed back.
I had 3 Spanish American Fire crews AD here on the Sawtooth NF 76 thru 82 They were formed in the Late 70’s. They were recognized for their work and not the chances they took They also had a excellent Safety record during that entire time.
Bob the new generation are born and raised adrenaline junkies. Not like the old days. Sure we did some cow tipping 🙂 but not triple backflips on a motorbike or jump off the Eiffel Tower wearing a squirrel suit
Tried to post this from my cell last night but botched my user name so its in moderation hell..
Bob, you have to realize that the generation of nowadays is born and raised adrenaline junkies. They watch it all of the time on TV, internet etc and try a lot of this stuff themselves….
Back in the old days, the craziest thing was maybe “cow tipping”, not doing triple backflips on a moped or jumping off the Eiffel Tower with a wingsuit on (aka squirrel suit)..
Years ago, on a Monday morning, the talk would be about drinkin beer, 4×4’s and chasing the ladies. Now the crew conversations are about recipes for exotic foods, extreme mountain biking, white water kayaking, rock climbing, etc etc.
A lot of the crew people I know spent more on buying a mountain bike than they did on their car or truck…
It is a change that needs to be realized.
In my opinion… it is part of the problem…
Well I figured that. I was under the impression thru Directives and Training and The Supervisors that those things would be a no starter.
Hell we are all a bit adrenalin junkies nothing new there.
Pushing that envelope on the Job against the rules seems a little out of whack.
I was seeing this in several statements on different threads.
I still do not think it is wide spread. There are a lot of good supervisors out there that would not put up with it especially teams on Fires.
Any way thanks for the info.
.
Unfortunately Bob, as our workforce ages, those young crazy buggers from a few years ago are now becoming the supervisors…. And they tolerate it..
Rocksteady has a point there. Ted tells me of some that did not consider themselves fire fighters until they had been in a burnover. Some had even purposely gotten into a burn over just to prove they were bad ass. But it is not bad ass when the bosses send you down into a trap under their watch as we saw at Yarnell. Good if you want to burn your own ass–no one ought to put much to that, but when you risk the lives of your comrades then you need to be up for negligence charges and fired,
Reply to Charlie post on April 20, 2016 at 7:27 pm
>> Charlie said…
>>
>> when you risk the lives of your comrades then you need to be
>> up for negligence charges and fired,
And not necessarily in that order.
They had been watching a blowup since early morning–I know-we watched it–it was just that they went against the odds of a blowback despite bad weather conditions. Where was the promised air support when the shit hit the fan?
Reply to Charlie ( Sonny ) post on April 18, 2016 at 7:45 pm
>> Charlie ( Sonny ) said…
>>
>> If donut and his friend got together and talked to God then maybe they got
>> the wrong message back. The Doce fire is that one right west of Prescott
>> then that is baloney about it being a different thing here. The conditions were
>> approximately identical. Plenty of manzanita and all the weather reports of
>> wind change and high velocity causing the same problems. Joy and I drive
>> by there quite regularly, her husband every day. If you need photos of all the
>> manzanita in that area we can provide.
>>
>> The Doce fire is easily reviewed. You have to pass through the burn area
>> on the way to Prescott from Skull Valley. There is about 2 miles of burned
>> area, all in manzanita with boulders and steep hills around there.
>> Adjoining to the west along the highway some more manzanita like the
>> Yarnell Death Basin. You damn sure Do Not want to be caught in that shit
>> if a blaze starts up.
Sonny… you are exactly right… and in case you ( and others ) were not aware… the actual April/Beta ‘Yarnell Hill Staff Ride Guide’ says exactly what you just said… that you can EASILY SEE the ‘similarities’ between the ‘Doce’ fuel loads and topography and what was present in Yarnell right from the HIGHWAY.
And they ( the authors of the Staff Ride Guide ) are actually TELLING their ‘Facilitators’ to POINT THIS OUT to ALL the ‘Staff Ride Participants’ on the drive from Prescott down to Yarnell.
The following page from the April/Beta ‘Yarnell Hill Fire Staff Ride Guide’ has specific ‘talking points’ that are supposed to be ‘mentioned’ and ‘discussed’ DURING the travel from Prescott down to Yarnell.
Specifically… at ‘Milepost 12’ along Iron Springs Road from Prescott to Yarnell the ‘Facilitators’ are SUPPOSED to point out all the SIMILARITIES in the fuels ( type, height, density, etc. ) and the topography between the Doce, West Spruce and then the Yarnell Fire.
The Facilitators are also SUPPOSED to then point out that the ‘resources’ responding to Yarnell on Sunday, June 30, 2013 ( including Granite Mountain ) all SHOULD have been ‘fully aware’ of these SIMILARITIES and were ‘experienced with the fuel type and topography’ of Yarnell.
From PDF page 5 of the April/Beta ‘Yarnell Hill Fire Staff Ride Guide’…
——————————————————————————————-
Page Title: Travel Map to Stand 1 ( Travel from Prescott to Yarnell )
Facilitator’s Notes for Milepost 12 along Iron Springs Road from Prescott to Yarnell
– Similar fuels, weather, & topography associated with Doce, West Spruce, and Yarnell Hill fires. Make note of fuel types, fuel height, and density.
– Weaver Mountains and area of Yarnell Hill Fire should be in view to the SW of this point.
– Familiarity among local responders: Prescott IHC and Granite Mtn IHC; initial attack and extended attack personnel on all three fires included same local multi-agency personnel.
– June 1990; the Prescott National Forest had a Doce Fire in the same area as the 2013 Doce fire. In that year, the AZ Dept. of Corrections Perryville fire crew was assigned to the Doce Fire only to find themselves in a burn over 11 days later with 6 fatalities on the Dude Fire, June 26th, 1990 on the Payson Ranger District, Tonto NF. The area of the Dude Fire has similar fuels to these fires.
——————————————————————————————-
So that is what the people authoring this official ‘Yarnell Hill Staff Ride’ are telling their own ‘Facilitators’ to POINT OUT to all ‘Staff Ride participants’ DURING the drive down from Prescott to Yarnell.
How SIMILAR the ‘Doce’ and ‘West Spruce’ and ‘Yarnell Hill’ fires really were with regards to fuel type and fuel loads and topography and ( hence ) ‘expected fire behavior’ that day in Yarnell.
So when former Granite Mountain Hotshot Bee Tschorn had this to say ( in PUBLIC, on David Turbyfill’s’ Facebook page ) about 12 hours ago…
———————————————————————————————————
Comment by: Bee Tschorn
Anyone that thinks that the weather was the same on the Dosie fire is an uneducated firefighter
Anyone that thinks that the fuel type was the same as equally as uneducated
———————————————————————————————————-
Then the ‘uneducated firefighters’ he is referring to are also the authors of the official Yarnell Hill Fire Staff Ride… such as Fuels Expert Don Boursier of Arizona Forestry, OMNA International employee and former Prescott Wildland Division Chief Darrell Willis, ‘Brit Rosso’ of USFS ‘Wildland Fire Lessons Learned Center’… etc. etc. etc.
If former Granite Mountain Hotshot Bee Tschorn ( or anyone? ) has a problem with someone saying that the fuel types and loads and the topography in Yarnell were ‘similar’ to the ‘Doce’ fire… and that Granite Mountain SHOULD have been fully aware of this and known exactly what to expect in Yarnell… then he needs to take that up with his ‘brothers’ who are authoring the actual Yarnell Hill Fire Staff Ride for the USFS “Wildland Fire Lessons Learned Center”.
If you read carefully above… the authors of the ‘Staff Ride’ are actually REFUTING what Gary Cordes had to say about how the reason things all went to shit in Yarnell was simply because the fire “exceeded our expectations”.
According to what the Staff Ride authors are saying in their ‘Facilitators Guide’… that should definitely have NOT been the case on Sunday, June 30, 2013.
Everyone involved with that fire ( Gary Cordes and Granite Mountain included ) should have had the correct FAMILIARITY with the fuel loads and the terrain and the expected weather to KNOW how to set the correct ‘expectations’ for fighting the Yarnell Hill Fire… and how to keep themselves and the people they were responsible for ‘safe’ while in that workplace.
I may be wrong but I think you WTKTT may be referring to a comment I made down in the weeds about what Cordes said regarding the fire behavior on Yarnell. You said they “should have had the correct familiarity with the fuel loads and the terrain and the expected weather to KNOW how to set the correct ‘expectations’ for fighting the Yarnell Hill Fire… and how to keep themselves and the people they were responsible for ‘safe’ while in that workplace.” And I asked below since you referred to amateur vs professional, what makes a professional a professional? What’s Cordes’ training records look like? When was the last time Cordes needed to set three trigger points, believe they were accurate, then NOT adjust them when weather updates were given? Did Cordes not get the weather update at 1526? I don’t believe he did. If a person isn’t receiving all the inputs then the decisions they make are already skewed and this is one frustrating and dangerous aspect of fighting fire, having to rely on information to be delivered from a human being down the chain and then it doesn’t happen–a person can only know what they know and the information that was given. Also figure in that Cordes was not strictly a wild land guy and this elevates the professional/amateur experiences and expectations in the wild land arena.
Good question
I know that Marsh and GM got the weather forecast I can not remember if Cordes did.
If You did not catch it earlier I hate trigger points but there were several set on this fire way to tight to the burning conditions. There was not much leeway between the trigger points and time to exit as well as notify the home owners to evacuate.
Reply to Bob Powers post on April 19, 2016 at 7:34 pm
>> Bob Powers said…
>> I know that Marsh and GM got the weather forecast
>> I can not remember if Cordes did.
See the response to ‘gizmo’ directly below.
He got it. No question.
What Gary Cordes did NOT do was then ‘adjust his trigger points’ in any way, shape or form, even after being told ( at 3:30 PM ) that there were going to be complete fireline reversals being hit with 40-50 mph winds.
He just continued to rely on the ‘trigger points’ he had set that MORNING… and everything went to shit when the fire did exactly what it was predicted to do circa 3:30 PM.
Cordes then also just ‘fell back’ on some bullshit explanation that the fire had “exceeded my expectations”.
The problem wasn’t the fire.
The problem was Cordes not adjusting his ‘expectations’ even once being given the information that should have caused him to do that.
This was all covered in the ADOSH report, and the resulting historic citations and penalties for that screwed-up Arizona Forestry workplace.
>> Bob Powers also said…
>>
>> If You did not catch it earlier I hate trigger points but
>> there were several set on this fire way to tight to the
>> burning conditions. There was not much leeway
>> between the trigger points and time to exit as well
>> as notify the home owners to evacuate.
See above. Gary Cordes DID receive the critical weather report… but then did NOTHING to adjust either his ‘expectations’ or his ‘trigger points’ he had set that morning.
Was this lack of acknowledging pending weather conditions due to also to Cordes insufficient experience as a leader? Would the mandate to show up at Yarnell to protect structures also be a failure on leaders to both disregard weather and inexperience at fighting fires, leading to the death of the 19? It would seem both inexperience and disregard for conditions had much to do with the Yarnell failure.
Bob, I am certain if you were here bossing this crew, you would not have had to rely on a weather report since you would have been looing to the Norteast since the fire was headed that way. You would have noticed dark clouds and lightening in the distance some 30 miles distance since early morning–And you and every experienced wild land fire fighter of a long time would have immediately known a weather change was eminent whether or not you ever got one call about the situation.
Reply to gizmo post on April 19, 2016 at 3:56 pm
>> gizmo said…
>>
>> I may be wrong but I think you WTKTT may be referring to a comment
>> I made down in the weeds about what Cordes said regarding the fire
>> behavior on Yarnell.
Actually, I wasn’t. I’m not sure which comment of yours you are referring to.
Can you post a ‘link’ to it? ( Right click the date on any comment, and then select ‘Copy Link Location’ and then paste it back into a message ).
>> gizmo also said…
>>
>> You said they “should have had the correct familiarity
>> with the fuel loads and the terrain and the expected weather
>> to KNOW how to set the correct ‘expectations’ for fighting
>> the Yarnell Hill Fire… and how to keep themselves and the
>> people they were responsible for ‘safe’ while in that workplace.”
What I was pointing out was that it seems that PDF page 4 of the official Yarnell Hill Staff Ride itself is telling their own ‘Facilitators’ to be sure and ‘point out’ to participants of the ‘Staff Ride’, during the drive from Prescott to Yarnell, that YES… the (quote) “local multi-agency personnel” who were called upon to respond to the Yarnell Hill Fire all SHOULD have had this ‘correct familiarity’ regarding fuels, topography, and the potential for ‘extreme fire behavior’.
The Staff Ride Guide is also telling the ‘Facilitators’ to be SURE and point out something ELSE that the (quote) “local multi-agency personnel” responding to Yarnell should have ALSO been fully aware of… and that is that (quote) “the area of the Dude Fire” ( and the resulting historic fatalities there ) also had “similar fuels”.
So ( apparently ) the authors of the official Yarnell Hill Staff Ride itself are the ones who seem to WANT their ‘Facilitators’ to point all these things out to the participants DURING the drive down from Prescott to Yarnell.
>> gizmo also said…
>>
>> And I asked below since you referred to
>> amateur vs professional, what makes a professional a professional?
Well… starting with Merriam Webster…
PROFESSIONAL
: of, relating to, or characteristic of a profession.
: engaged in one of the learned professions.
: characterized by or conforming to the technical or ethical STANDARDS of a profession.
AMATEUR
: a person who does something poorly
: a person who is not skillful at a job or other activity.
: one lacking in experience and competence in an art or science
One of the ‘tounge and cheek’ definitions of a ‘professional’ that I have heard is just ‘an amateur who knows how to hide his/her mistakes’.
And there is that other ‘famous’ quote…
“If you think its expensive to hire a professional to do a job, wait until you hire an amateur!”.
But seriously… I think an answer to your actual question “What makes a profesisonal a professional?” that would be commonly understood, and hard to argue with, would be something along the lines of…
Someone who can do what they, themselves, SAY they can do ( their ‘professed profession’, if you will ) in a fully competent, excellent manner and according to all the established RULES and REQUIREMENTS for that ‘profession’… versus someone who FAILS to do so.
>> gizmo also said…
>>
>> What’s Cordes’ training records look like?
None of the investigators ( SAIT or ADOSH ) ever even ASKED Cordes or his employer ( Central Yavapai County ) to supply his ‘training records’.
The closest we get ( in the public evidence record ) to any kind of ‘detail’ about that is when the ADOSH investigators were asking Cordes if he actually had the specific ‘SPGS’ rating that most of the other people that had testified said they ‘assumed’ he had… since he was the ‘acting SPGS1’ in Yarnell on Sunday.
That’s when Gary Cordes himself seemed to say he did NOT have that specific red-card rating at all. That he considered himself just a ‘DIVS’ with (granted) a fair amount of experience with ‘structure protection efforts’ ( since he was primarily a structural FF and not a Wildland FF ).
Keep in mind… to this day… there is NO RESOURCE ORDER that appears anywhere in the Yarnell Hill Fire documents to indicate that Gary Cordes was ever even ‘ordered up’ to work the fire at all… in ANY capacity. According to all the official documents turned over by Arizona Forestry regarding the Yarnell Hill Fire, Gary Cordes was never even there at all, or was just ‘freelancing’ the whole time.
That’s when the ADOSH investigators decided to try and VERIFY with Cordes right there during his interview, what ‘red-card ratings’ he really did ( or didn’t ) have.
So in answer to your question ( What’s Cordes’ training records look like? )… the following is from Gary Cordes’ own mouth during his ADOSH interview, and it’s the only detail ( that I am aware ) about his actual red-card ‘qualifications’ anywhere in the public evidence record…
Q = Bruce Hanna – ADOSH investigator
A = Gary Cordes – SPGS1 in Yarnell on Sunday, June 30, 2013
—————————————————————————————
53 Q: You have a lot of different red card, red card certifications?
54
55 A: I have a few red card certifications, yeah.
56
57 Q: Okay. Uh, Barry, do you need to know any of that or (Dave)?
58
59 Q1: Uh yeah, that’d help if we could hear it.
60
61 A: Um, I’m uh, Strike Team Engine Task Force leader and Divs.
62
63 Q: Task force leader and division supervisor.
64
65 A: And I have uh, B-Sawyer as well.
66
67 Q: Okay.
68
69 A: (Unintelligible). It’s been awhile since I’ve looked at it. Engine boss, and
70 paramedic.
—————————————————————————————
>> gizmo also said…
>>
>> When was the last time Cordes needed to set three trigger points,
>> believe they were accurate, then NOT adjust them when weather
>> updates were given?
I don’t know if he had EVER had to do that before, or even if he had, whether he had EVER done it ‘successfully’.
No investigator ever asked him those questions.
This would be the same person who, even months after the incident, was still describing the size of the ‘clearing’ at the Boulder Springs Ranch at 20 to 30 ACRES, which is WILDLY WRONG. That’s more than 8-10 times the size of the actual ‘safe area’ there at the Boulder Springs Ranch.
And this is also the man who ‘assigned’ that ‘area’ ( which he couldn’t even accurately describe the size of even months later ) to Granite Mountain as their ‘predetermined safety zone’ on the morning of Sunday, June 30, 2013.
>> gizmo also said…
>>
>> Did Cordes not get the weather update at 1526? I don’t believe he did.
Your belief is incorrect.
In the scant ‘interview notes’ from the SAIT regarding THEIR interview with Gary Cordes… there is only this one line… but it does indicate that he heard Byron Kimball’s critical weather update at 1530 ( 3:30 PM ) that Sunday…
15:30 – Heard of storm to the north.
However… in his ADOSH interview… the investigators were wondering why Gary Cordes made NO MENTION of having heard that critical weather update in his own Unit Log… and they asked him directly if he really had heard it.
He told the ADOSH investigators that he definitely DID hear it.
Q2 = Dave Larsen – WFA / ADOSH investigator ( Rest in Peace )
A = Gary Cordes – SPGS1 in Yarnell on Sunday, June 30, 2013
——————————————————————————–
1369 Q2: Okay. Uh, just wondering in, in your log, you never mentioned the wind
1370 advisory from, from uh, whoever.
1371
1372 A: Right.
1373
1374 Q2: Did you hear it?
1375
1376 A: Yeah, I did hear that. That was prior to the uh, um, that was obviously prior
1377 to the event occurring.
1378
1379 Q2: Okay. Um, that was prior to the fire turned 90 degree from northeast…
1380
1381 A: Right.
1382
1383 Q2: …to south?
1384
1385 A: Right. Yeah.
1386
1387 Q2: Okay.
———————————————————————————
>> gizmo also said…
>>
>> If a person isn’t receiving all the inputs then the decisions they make
>> are already skewed and this is one frustrating and dangerous aspect
>> of fighting fire, having to rely on information to be delivered from
>> a human being down the chain and then it doesn’t happen.
Of course. And when the ‘communicating’ is BAD enough… people can DIE.
That’s true of a whole LOT of ‘professions’, not just Wildland Firefighting.
In the case of Yarnell… one of the best examples is how Air Attack ‘Bravo 3’, with Rusty Warbis and Paul Lenmark onboard, arrived over Yarnell at exactly 11:58 AM that Sunday… and within 30 minutes… they KNEW that the fire was GOING to go ‘into Yarnell’ THAT day… during THAT burn cycle… and that’s when they conceived of their plan to just lay that long line of retardant ‘out there’ just northwest of Yarnell to try and protect the town. Warbis and Lenmark testified that after their ‘size up’ of the situation… they were so sure that Granite Mountain was ‘out of the game’ and performing USELESS work… and that the Blue Ridge Hotshots were doing nothing but sitting on their asses around their Crew Carriers… that SOMEONE had to at least TRY and do SOMETHING to protect Yarnell that day.
But NONE of that IMPORTANT information reached the people it should have.
Warbis and Lenmark had this ‘conversation’ with DIVSZ Rance Marquez, who then failed to pass ANY of this ‘advanced warning’ from a bona-fide Air Attack on to anyone in operations.
If that information alone had reached OPS… that EARLY in the day ( circa 1:00 PM ), there would/should have been PLENTY of time for ‘Operations’ to adjust their tactics and instruct Granite Mountain to ‘come down’ with PLENTY of time for them to return to their own Carriers and leave the area just like the Blue Ridge Crew was able to do ( safely ).
>> gizmo also said…
>>
>> a person can only know what they know and the information that was given.
The ‘C’ in LCES stands for ‘Communicate CLEARLY and EFFECTIVELY’… but that also doesn’t mean it’s some kind of ‘one way street’.
Communicating CLEARLY and EFFECTIVELY with co-workers means also anticipating what you might NOT know… and ASK QUESTIONS until you are SURE you DO know everything you need to know.
This is why it took almost TWO HOURS to find Granite Mountain’s bodies on the floor of that blind box canyon.
If the testimony we can see is to be believed… the people that needed to know exactly WHERE they were and WHAT they were doing were not ( in your words ) “given that information”.
Gary Cordes is the ONLY person in ‘fire command’ who has testified that he knew EXACTLY what Granite Mountain was doing, and where they were going.
SAIT Co-Lead Mike Dudley himself has said ( in public )… that once all the evidence was looked at he, himself, came to the conclusion that with regards to Eric Marsh and his ‘Communications’ that day… it was (quote) “almost like he was being DELIBERATELY VAUGE” ( endquote ).
But that ‘conclusion’ was ( of course ) NOT mentioned in the SAIR report.
>> gizmo also said…
>>
>> Also figure in that Cordes was not strictly a wild land guy and this
>> elevates the professional/amateur experiences and expectations
>> in the wild land arena.
You can be a cab driver and know that when someone tells you 40-50 mph winds are about to hit a fireline ( and totally reverse it )… it’s going to start moving a LOT faster than it did when you first set any ‘trigger points’ that morning and then ADJUST your ‘trigger points’ accordingly.
Gary Cordes did NOT do that.
He admits he heard that crucial weather advisory at 3:30 PM… but proceeded to make NO ADJUSTMENTS to ANY of his ‘trigger points’ from that morning… and then just ‘fell back’ on some explanation that it “exceeded my expectations”.
What Cordes FAILED to do was ADJUST HIS EXPECTATIONS based on ‘new information’ that even he admits he received.
This was all covered in the ADOSH investigation and became the basis for some of the actual CITATIONS being issues. Management was NOT REACTING correctly to even the information they WERE getting… and it all resulted in any number of ‘near entrapments’ that day in that workplace… for which ADOSH levied Historic fines and the most they were allowed to by Arizona law.
WTKTT,
you said:
“What Cordes FAILED to do was ADJUST HIS EXPECTATIONS based on ‘new information’ that even he admits he received.”
He did not possess the appropriate background in the fire service to be able to properly process and react to this information. He was a structural based Battalion Chief. 2-3 acres DOES seem like 20-30 acres to a lot of these people. (I told everyone of our standing joke of fire size estimates by structural firefighters when they arrive on scene – you can just about figure it’s a tenth of the size they think it is) We see this same ‘underestimate’ with Willis determination of a tennis court being large enough for safety zone.
“Gary Cordes is the ONLY person in ‘fire command’ who has testified that he knew EXACTLY what Granite Mountain was doing, and where they were going. ”
Why did he not speak up in the search for GM? Wouldn’t this have saved time in locating the position of GM?
I’m going to let you in on a little dirty secret, WTKTT. I’m going to do this because I like you. There are a lot of people in the fire world that would string me up for this if they could find me and I also am concerned for Sonny’s health in hearing this. Ready? I’m going to whisper it:
[Nobody makes any money unless the fire gets big.]
To make the big bucks, you have to have a big fire that’s going to burn into multiple operational periods. You have to gain qualifications at higher positions so you get the higher pay. You have to make sure you get dispatched to it and get deployed at as high a position as you can. That’s why you are seeing fires with multiple Ops chiefs, lots of DIVS, Group Specialists. you know, heavy on the upper management side. Pencil-whipped non-qualified, ego-maniac, structural charlatans abound in today’s wildfire world. Problem? You tell me.
Woodsman
>> gizmo also said…
>>
>> Did Cordes not get the weather update at 1526? I don’t believe he did.
WTKTT says:
“Your belief is incorrect.
In the scant ‘interview notes’ from the SAIT regarding THEIR interview with Gary Cordes… there is only this one line… but it does indicate that he heard Byron Kimball’s critical weather update at 1530 ( 3:30 PM ) that Sunday…
15:30 – Heard of storm to the north.
However… in his ADOSH interview… the investigators were wondering why Gary Cordes made NO MENTION of having heard that critical weather update in his own Unit Log… and they asked him directly if he really had heard it.
He told the ADOSH investigators that he definitely DID hear it.”
Q2 = Dave Larsen – WFA / ADOSH investigator ( Rest in Peace )
A = Gary Cordes – SPGS1 in Yarnell on Sunday, June 30, 2013
——————————————————————————–
1369 Q2: Okay. Uh, just wondering in, in your log, you never mentioned the wind
1370 advisory from, from uh, whoever.
1371
1372 A: Right.
1373
1374 Q2: Did you hear it?
1375
1376 A: Yeah, I did hear that. That was prior to the uh, um, that was obviously prior
1377 to the event occurring.
1378
1379 Q2: Okay. Um, that was prior to the fire turned 90 degree from northeast…
1380
1381 A: Right.
1382
1383 Q2: …to south?
1384
1385 A: Right. Yeah.
1386
1387 Q2: Okay.
———————————————————————————
My belief is correct and your belief is giving too much credit to the scant SAIT and the ADOSH interview you referred to. I don’t believe the SAIT time log saying
15:30–Heard of storm to the north
is extensive enough of a description of weather that was received to prove with absolutes that this is the very important updated weather at 1526. This could have been a variety of weather descriptions he heard of from the north, including Prescott being weathered in, or Marty Cole passing on the weather information he witnessed while driving to the fire, or by simply listening to NOAA on his handheld, or it could have been a plain old typo in the SAIR.
And the ADOSH interview, if you kept going to line 1397 “I was thinking that was towards um, that was somewhere around two o’clockish, somewhere in that timeframe.” How does that translate to hearing the updated weather at 1526? Read on in the interview and there’s no mention of it. Line 1418 “There were storms uh, north of the fire, northeast of the fire um, and that we were anticipating some heavy outflows um, and I think they said 40, 40 mile an hour winds if I remember right.” This description could have very easily been from the 1402 weather report.
Back to the original point of Cordes not adjusting his trigger points, I agree wholeheartedly with Woodsman in its not in his wheelhouse or in his background–he is a Battalion Chief not a hardcore seen a shit load of fire guy. This was my point about your point of amateur vs professional, I didn’t need a definition of them, as what I was getting at is a BC does not a professional wild land firefighter make. He was a Structure Protection on Yarnell and yet he was making decisions that were wild land based–all three trigger points were wild land that would ultimately effect where he was supposed to be ‘working’ and protecting. And by ‘working’ I mean making a presence with a few resources in an unsaveable town. Not receiving the 1526 weather caused a non-reaction.
Something to consider Woodsman, as you said, Cordes did own up to hearing GM moving to their ER, and when the search was on for them post deployment, someone was giving B33 clues as to where they might be. Go listen to the audio if you haven’t because B33 was getting accurate clues.
Reply to gizmo post on April 20, 2016 at 11:40 am
>> gizmo also said…
>>
>> My belief is correct and your belief is giving too much credit
>> to the scant SAIT and the ADOSH interview you referred to.
I am not giving ‘too much credit’ to that one line in the SAIR.
I am only giving it ‘credit’. It says what it says… and it says it’s something Cordes says he heard at 1530… which is exactly when the critical Byron Kimball weather update took place over an open TAC channel.
It is Gary Cordes’ ADOSH testimony ( and the specific questioning from the ADOSH investigators ) that actually CONFIRMS Gary Cordes really did hear that 1530 weather update about the expected ’40-50 mph’ winds approaching the area.
>> gizmo also said…
>>
>> And the ADOSH interview, if you kept going to line
>> 1397 “I was thinking that was towards um, that was
>> somewhere around two o’clockish, somewhere in that
>> timeframe.” How does that translate to hearing
>> the updated weather at 1526?
It doesn’t. Cordes was mistaken about the time.
The ADOSH investigators were specifically asking him about the weather update that contained the reference to the approaching 40-50 mph winds. Cordes confirms he DID hear THAT ‘update’… but he can only be talking about Byron Kimball’s 1530 broadcast… because that’s the only one that specifically mentioned these expected winds… “within the half hour”.
>> gizmo also said…
>>
>> Line 1418 “There were storms uh, north of the fire, northeast
>> of the fire um, and that we were anticipating some heavy
>> outflows um, and I think they said 40, 40 mile an hour winds
>> if I remember right.” This description could have very easily
>> been from the 1402 weather report.
Nope. The 1530 report is the only time Byron Kimball mentioned those kinds of specific ‘wind gusts’ “within the half hour” and was now announcing the ‘numbers’ for the expected winds just like the National Weather Service itself had just announced.
Keep in mind that this same 1530 weather report we are now talking about is ALSO trying to be ‘dialed back’ by at least an HOUR in the information contained in the official Yarnell Hill Staff Ride Guide.
On the page from the SAIR that originally reported an incorrect time of 1550 for Byron Kimball’s “40-50 mph winds and fire line reversals” radio broadcast that the authors of the ‘Yarnell Staff Ride’ guide have just ‘dumped’ into the ‘Staff Ride Guide’… they have also now added an ‘inset box’ to the Guide itself on that SAIR page dump which is trying to ‘dial back’ even that original incorrect time of 1550.
The authors of the ‘Yarnell Hill Fire Staff Ride Guide’ are now saying ( in that inset box ) that this critical weather advisory happened ONE HOUR EARLIER that what the SAIR first reported. They now say it happened at 1450.
That is even MORE WRONG than the original SAIR reported.
That critical weather update from Kimball was captured in a timestamped radio recording. He began broadcasting that critical weather update at 9 second before 1530 ( 1529:51 )… and he was finished with it by 1531.
>> gizmo also said…
>>
>> Back to the original point of Cordes not adjusting his
>> trigger points, I agree wholeheartedly with Woodsman
>> in its not in his wheelhouse or in his background–he is a
>> Battalion Chief not a hardcore seen a shit load of fire guy.
>> This was my point about your point of amateur vs
>> professional, I didn’t need a definition of them, as what I
>> was getting at is a BC does not a professional wild land
>> firefighter make. He was a Structure Protection on Yarnell
>> and yet he was making decisions that were wild land based.
That’s correct.
Since there is no resource order for Cordes… we still don’t know what he was even ‘ordered up’ as… but there’s no question that even though he had already been up all night… he was being considered the defacto ‘Division Supervisor’ for that area of the fire down there on the south side.
He was making all the kinds of ‘decisions’ that would normally be made by an assigned ‘Division Supervisor’… and Operations was LETTING him do that regardless of whether he was qualified to be doing all that, or not.
>> gizmo also said…
>>
>> all three trigger points were wild land that would
>> ultimately effect where he was supposed to be
>> ‘working’ and protecting. And by ‘working’ I mean
>> making a presence with a few resources in an
>> unsaveable town. Not receiving the 1526 weather
>> caused a non-reaction.
Again… read Cordes’ ADOSH testimony.
He DID admit to ‘receiving’ the weather advisory that predicted the 40-50 mph wind event… and that was ONLY the 1530 one.
>> gizmo also said…
>>
>> Something to consider Woodsman, as you said, Cordes
>> did own up to hearing GM moving to their ER, and when
>> the search was on for them post deployment, someone
>> was giving B33 clues as to where they might be. Go listen
>> to the audio if you haven’t because B33 was getting
>> accurate clues.
When?
Exactly which piece of ‘audio’ are you now basing THAT claim on?
Go and listen to the audio your own self.
From Prescott National Forest employee Aaron Hulburd’s video M2U00266, which was recording radio traffic on the Air To Ground channel FOLLOWING the ‘deployment’…
At exactly 4:49 PM ( plus 25 seconds )… and more than 10 minutes since Jesse Steed’s first botched-MAYDAY call had hit the A2G channel… we hear OPS2 Paul Musser himself ASKING ‘Bravo 33′ if THEY ( as yet ) have any frickin’ CLUE where Granite Mountain is/was actually located.
John Burfiend, in B33, says NO… they do NOT.
————————————————————–
+1:56 ( 1649:25 / 4:49:25 PM )
(OPS2 Paul Musser): Bravo three three, Operations Musser, do we have
any firm location on where they’re at?
+2:02 ( 1649:31 / 4:49:31 PM )
(Bravo 33 – Ah… no… I… I can’t… other than I would say the southeast corner a the fire. So… that’s the best I can do in there where we had that wind shift and it did a slope reversal… uh… is the best I can do for ya right now.
+2:20 ( 1649:49 / 4:49:49 PM )
(OPS2 Paul Musser): Affirmative.
——————————————————————-
Keep in mind that even at this time… just shy of 4:50 PM… both OPS2 Paul Musser and SPGS1 Gary Cordes were already down on the SOUTH side of the fire by the Ranch House Restaurant, where everyone had already been forming ‘groups’ and trying to figure out where the hell Granite Mountain might have actually been radioing from 10-11 minutes earlier, at 4:39 PM.
Just 1 minute and 24 seconds after we hear OPS2 Musser asking the ( clueless ) B33 if they have any idea where they are… and Burfiend basically says NO… Gary Cordes himself is heard in the same video now answering a radio call from newly arriving ‘Structure Group 3’.
At 4:51 PM… Gary Cordes confirms that he is already there on the SOUTH end of Yarnell itself, where everyone else had been gathering following the deployment and Cordes says he is already engaged in ‘structure protection’ down there and he already knows it is ‘dicey’ in the Glen Ilah subdivision there near the Ranch House Restaurant.
——————————————————————-
+3:44 ( 1651:13 / 4:51:13 PM )
(Structure Group Three): Structure group one, structure group three, on your TAC.
+3:50 ( 1651:19 / 4:51:19 PM )
(SPGS1 Gary Cordes): TONE. Three, one, go ahead.
+3:58 ( 1651:27 / 4:51:27 PM )
(SPGS1 Gary Cordes): TONE. Structure three, structure one, go ahead.
+4:02 ( 1651:31 / 4:51:31 PM )
(Structure Group Three): Yea… I have a type two crew here. We just pulled into Yarnell. Where do ya need us at?
+4:08 ( 1651:37 / 4:51:37 PM )
(SPGS1 Gary Cordes): You can stage at the small… right there… right on the north side by the mini-storage… and why don’t you just take the north end a town. I’m down here on the SOUTH end.
+4:20 ( 1651:49 / 4:51:49 PM )
(Structure Group Three): Copy that. You want us to go back in the subdivision here… or just stage along the road?
NOTE: Yowell now seems to be arranging for Hulburd to ‘go and get’ Clawson and bring him back to their current location after Clawson has moved the ISUZU vehicle for the citizen.
+4:23 ( 1651:52 / 4:51:52 PM )
(Foreground: KC ‘Bucky’ Yowell): I’ll wait here by our vehicles… if you wanna go get him.
+4:25 ( 1651:54 / 4:51:54 PM )
(SPGS1 Gary Cordes): It’s real dicey in the subdivision. Kinda use your judgement… uh… we’re just doin’ point protection… you know… bump and roll on it.
———————————————————-
So even though ( by 4:50 PM ) there had been PLENTY of time for Cordes to inform OPS2 Musser ( or anyone else ) of what he would later testify to being ‘certain’ of with regards to Granite Mountain’s actual intentions and location just prior to deployment…
…here we have proof positive that OPS2 Paul Musser had still NOT received that information, and he’s still asking B33 if THEY have any idea where GM is really located… and they, also, do NOT.
Again… WHAT ‘piece of audio’ are you referring to that seems to suggest to YOU that (quote) “B33 was getting accurate clues” about GM’s actual whereabouts?
I would have never thought anyone would rely on a weather report when you could clearly see the ominous dark clouds gathering with lightening flashes in the not too distant future. In Arizona and most places out west I know of, when you do see that situation you don’t care what the weather man says, you rely on knowing that there is going to be a shift in wind direction, wind speeds and highly unpredictable weather patterns. Isn’t that a part of the wild land fire fighter training at that academy? If not they need a few cowboys around there to help train those boys.
There is an old sailor saying that rainbow in the east sailor take heed, rainbow in the west, sailor at rest. I am not a sailor so don’t know how good that idea is but on land you at least in Arizona you can’t count on it. What you can count on is thunderstorms in the distance, weather will change for the land lubber.
For most of the late afternoon… SPGS1 Gary Cordes was ‘staged’ there at one of those concrete driveways along the Maughn Ranch white-rail fence, to the NORTH of Yarnell and on up towards where Hays Ranch Road intersects with Highway 89.
He had a CLEAR and UNOBSTRUCTED view of the entire ‘landscape’ to the north for that entire time.
Even if ALL of his radios has been ‘busted’ and he had been hearing nothing at all… he could/should still have easily ‘seen what was coming’… and started adjusting both his ‘expectations’ AND his ‘trigger points’ from that morning.
He didn’t.
**
** ARIZONA WILDFIRE AND INCIDENT MANAGEMENT ACADEMY ( AWIMA )
** HAS FINALLY PUBLISHED A ‘REPORT’ ABOUT THEIR 2016 CLASSES
** AND AWARDS BANQUET.
It’s been more than a month since the 2016 annual ‘Arizona Wildfire and Incident Management Academy’ ( AWIMA ) classes took place back in early March of 2016… but just recently… the AWIMA finally got around to updating their own website and including the usual PDF file based ‘report’ about the 2016 Academy.
Other than 1 piece of external radio station ‘copy’ that appeared back during the week of the classes in March… they, themselves, seemed to be purposely NOT announcing who they gave their ‘2015 Southwest Firefighter of the Year Award’ to. There were photos posted immediately on their own AWIMA Facebook page of the ‘banquet’ where the awards are given out in the middle of the AWIMA week of classes… but even though ‘seeming’ to ‘report’ about their banquet in ‘real time’ ( and unlike previous years )… they, themselves, made NO MENTION of who actually got their ‘awards’ this year at this banquet of theirs.
Like they didn’t even WANT to ‘announce’ it ( publicly ), this year… or something.
It was only that 1 piece of external ‘radio copy’ where we learned that they gave their “2015 Firefighter of the Year” award to the Blue Ridge Hotshots.
Well… as it turns out… they have NOW finally gotten around to officially ‘announcing’ ( themselves ) that it was, in fact, the “Blue Ridge Hotshots” who received their award this year.
And despite previous reports… Brian Frisby himself WAS there at the Awards Banquet to ‘accept’ the “2015 Firefighter of the Year” award on behalf of the Blue Ridge Hotshots organization.
NOTE: That ‘previous report’ about Brian Frisby NOT being there to accept the AWIMA ‘2015 Southwest Firefighter of the Year’ award came from poster ‘Robert the Second’, back in Chapter 19 of this ongoing discussion. RTS actually attended this year’s AWIMA banquet.
—————————————————————————————-
>> On March 19, 2016 at 7:42 pm, Robert the Second ( RTS ) said…
>>
>> WTKTT,
>>
>> Frisby was NOT there to accept the award and I don’t know if any
>> other BRHS did in his stead.
>>
>> I think it was a bribe for them being directed NOT to speak about the
>> YH Fire per the USDA OGC and NOT being allowed to participate in
>> any of the mandated YH Fire Staff Ride developments.
—————————————————————————————-
Here is the ‘new’ 2016 AWIMA ‘report’, complete with the photo of Blue Ridge Superintendent Brian Frisby ‘accepting’ their ‘award’ at the banquet itself…
Arizona Wildfire and Incident Management Academy ( AWIMA )
http://www.azwildfireacademy.org/
Choose ‘2016 report’ from the left-side menu… OR…
Here is a direct link to their recently posted ‘2016 report’…
http://www.azwildfireacademy.org/Final-Report-2016.pdf
On PDF page 4 ( of 4 pages )…
————————————————————————
SOUTHWEST FIREFIGHTER OF THE YEAR AWARD
Brian Frisby and the Blue Ridge IHC
Brian accepted the award for the Blue Ridge Hotshots.
They were nominated for this award because of their
invaluable service to wildland fire throughout the country.
PHOTO: ( Left to Right )…
AWIMA 2016 ‘Incident Commander’ Todd Abel
Blue Ridge Hotshots Superintendent Brian Frisby
Arizona State Forester Jeff Whitney
————————————————————————
The photograph above was, in fact, taken on the ‘stage’ there at the same place the annual ‘banquet’ was being held ( as per other photographs taken at the same banquet that night which also appear in their 2016 summary report ).
If that ‘presentation’ was ‘staged’ at some later time ( and was not made during the official banquet itself )… then they at least returned to the same exact ‘stage’ in the same exact room to take the photograph.
Still no word on anything Brian Frisby might have actually SAID when he ‘accepted’ the award at that AWIMA banquet.
This AWIMA 2016 report also contains some interesting information about where their ‘money’ actually comes from…
PDF page 2 ( of 4 pages )…
—————————————————————————
2016 Revenue Sources
NOTE: This is just a bar graph showing sources… ACTUAL ( specific ) amounts are not shown.
Approximately $160,000 – Registration Fees
Approximately $040,000 – Gila River Indian Community
Approximately $010,000 – Volunteer Fire Assistance ( Program )
Approximately $010,000 – Yavapai County Board of ?? ( cut off in graphic )
Approximately $040,000 – Ready Reserve Grant
Approximately $008,000 – Captain Crossfit
Approximately $005,000 – State Farm Insurance
Approximately $006,000 – Arizona Public Service
Approximately $006,000 – Raffle and Auction
Approximate TOTAL Revenue for 2016: $285,000
——————————————————————————
It also says that $26,722 in scholarships were ‘awarded’ this year, but other than that, there is no other ‘detail’ on EXPENDITURES such as salaries for AWIMA management, OPS personnel, instructors, possible facility rental fees, etc.
Followup…
The AWIMA has also now ( finally ) updated their own online page dedicated to their ‘Southwestern Firefighter of the Year’ award and it is now ( finally ) showing the 2015 ‘winners’… The Blue Ridge Hotshots.
Arizona Wildfire and Incident Management Academy
Southwestern Firefighter of the Year Award
http://www.azwildfireacademy.org/Wildland-Firefighter-of-the-Year.html
—————————————————————————
The 2015 Award Goes To:
The Blue Ridge Hotshots
Superintendent Brian Frisby accepted the engraved Pulaski award for the Blue Ridge Hotshots.
They were nominated for this award because of their invaluable service to Wildland Fire throughout the country.
PHOTO: ( Same photo used in their 2016 ‘report’ )… ( Left to Right )…
AWIMA 2016 ‘Incident Commander’ Todd Abel
Blue Ridge Hotshots Superintendent Brian Frisby
Arizona State Forester Jeff Whitney
—————————————————————————
WTKTT,
Thank you for the interesting information. I have re-reviewed the Arizona Wildfire Academy facebook page to check into what you are saying. I can view photos of the banquet there. I find the same background that is shown of Brian Frisby accepting the firefighter of the year award in other pictures of the 2016 Academy banquet. So after reading what you quoted above:
“>> On March 19, 2016 at 7:42 pm, Robert the Second ( RTS ) said…
>>
>> WTKTT,
>>
>> Frisby was NOT there to accept the award and I don’t know if any
>> other BRHS did in his stead.
>>
>> I think it was a bribe for them being directed NOT to speak about the
>> YH Fire per the USDA OGC and NOT being allowed to participate in
>> any of the mandated YH Fire Staff Ride developments.”
And then comparing the facebook pictures of the 2016 Academy banquet to the picture on the Arizona Wildland academy website under the heading of ‘2016 Final Report,’ is sure as hell is a picture of Brian Frisby receiving the 2015 Firefighter of the Year award.
So, what the hell? Why would RTS lie about that? Was RTS actually not there when he said he was? Others have confirmed that he was there so that’s not it. All of the evidence clearly shows Brian Frisby accepting the award in person so why in the hell would someone lie about that? What is there to gain from lying about it? If it was a lie, what else has this person lied about? No wonder this entire ordeal is taking this long to crack.
Ok Bob, that’s your cue. Let’s hear it.
Woodsman
Oh, and one more thing. Does this photo make anybody else hair stand up on the back of their neck besides me? Are you seeing what I’m seeing? Uh huh, that’s right. Yep. Oh, you didn’t get it? Look at it again and really think about it this time.
https://www.facebook.com/WFFoundation/photos/a.10151675919740625.1073741825.23075020624/10153812668340625/?type=3&theater
Woodsman
Woodsman,
You are so quick to lay blame and fault. There is nothing to gain from lying because there are NO lies. WTF?
How about being in a side conversation or out of the room or some other distraction when the award was presented. Did you ever think of that as a possibility?
RTS,
No, I didn’t think of that as a possibility for at least 2 reasons:
1. You most certainly must know all the IHC superintendents in the SW being one yourself for so long. It must be a tight group so are you saying you didn’t know he was there at the banquet?
2. You chose to give information about it, in fact, you said Frisby “was NOT there to accept the award.” You emphasized ‘NOT’ by capitalizing that word. Some say that’s yelling or emphasis, I go with emphasis. You didn’t just say he wasn’t there, you emphasized that he was NOT. Why? If there are so many reasons for you not to be sure of that, why did you make that statement? And with such emphasis?
But now we find out that Frisby actually was there to receive the award. So go ahead, you have the floor. Explain the part I’m missing.
Also, I did not say you lied. I’m saying it has the appearance of a lie and I’m asking if you did and why? It seems like something unusual to lie about.
Woodsman
Woodsman,
This is what you posted: “So, what the hell? Why would RTS lie about that? Was RTS actually not there when he said he was? Others have confirmed that he was there so that’s not it. All of the evidence clearly shows Brian Frisby accepting the award in person so why in the hell would someone lie about that? What is there to gain from lying about it? If it was a lie, what else has this person lied about? No wonder this entire ordeal is taking this long to crack.”
The word “APPEARANCE” is not even in there.
I’m done here. After the RTS feeding frenzy a few weeks ago after the YHF Staff Ride debacle, with Gary and WTKTT and you and now this, I’m done. You guys can figure this out on your own.
Civil questions would be nice. you jump on the person without asking
what he has to say in a civil way.
Really Woodsman he lied or maybe he was not there?????
Maybe the award was not given till Friday when Brian could be there.
They gave another award that night as well.
I believe the banquet was on Thursday night I could be wrong.
I also believe that RTS left Friday the day after the Banquet ?
and did not stay that day for the ending ceremony.?
Again I believe and could be wrong.
If you look at the Info several others were given awards and have a personnel picture award with each description of the award.
Where is Brian’s individual picture?
If you note another person was awarded on Friday.
I apologize and step back.—-
The Awards ceremony was on Tuesday night not Thursday.
In a news release from the Last chapter it says one award was presented to an Individual. And the Fire fighter of the year award was awarded to the Blue Ridge Hot Shots and Brian Frisby. (Not Presented to them or Brian) Might indicate he was not there on Tuesday night and was presented with the award later.
Any way can we get back to asking CIVIL questions and not attacking each other.
When you attack you will get attacked seems to be happening more. Are we all frustrated and at a dead end here.
whats new?
You’re right, Bob. RTS, I apologize.
Woodsman
It takes a big man to do that hopefully RTS will accept.
So… I’m a little confused ( as usual ).
WHERE ( up above ) is the actual EXPLANATION that Woodsman was originally requesting?
RTS did not originally say…
“Frisby MIGHT have been there, I don’t know.”
OR
“I was out in the hall and missed that award”.
OR
“I don’t know if they even gave out that award the night I was there”.
Woodsman was correct when he pointed out what RTS did originally say…
>> Frisby was NOT there to accept
>> the award and I don’t know if any
>> other BRHS did in his stead.
The only way to read that is that RTS seemed to be sure the award WAS presented ( on the night he was there ).. but he was absolutely SURE that Brian Frisby was NOT there to accept it.
I am NOT calling ANYONE a ‘liar’.
Repeat… NOT calling ANYONE a ‘liar’.
I’m still just curious what the real ‘explanation’ is that Woodsman was asking about.
We know RTS was at the Tuesday awards Banquet.
We know because Holly said she talked to him and he talked to Holly.
I would say that is conformation. With out using RTS real name here which I think would be unproductive.
________________________________________
There are people here we do not know Like WTKTT that wish to keep there personnel name off here for what ever reason.
Like Gizmo and Woodsman that’s OK with me,
So with that we can say RTS did not see Brian at the Banquet.
I can also say he personally knows Brian Frisby and has talked to him on several occasions and has been at R3 HS annual get together’s..
So did Brian receive the award at a latter time?
At the same location the rewards were first given.
The original release did not show that a award was given and who got it and then it shows up with picture. SOOOOOOO I am open to suggestions as to what happened.
Occasionally the religious aspects of this tragedy come about. We talk about the Willis aspects and how Donut and his friend became converted, evangelicals, etc. Religion does have an effect on people and if you do not believe it go study the Jim Jones event and others that move people even to kill themselves by a number of over 900 souls in the Jones event. Look at those poor brain washed Arabs that strap explosives to themselves to appease Allah. You don’t see the bosses there (Imams) or whatever they call themselves killing themselves but they have mesmerized the people as do these preachers, etc. Mostly they are mesmerized themselves, except they say or believe God gives them exception because they have a supposed direct pipe line to god–whoever or whatever that is to their way of thinking. Those preachers shit, puke, and fuck the same as the rest of us but most of us are not brain capable or do not want to believe we are every bit as equal to those bull shitters.
Now I like the Irish Goddess Dana, she likes me too. You are in good potatoes when the Irish Goddess smiles upon you. The Irish song Danny Boy is a heart tearing song of real Irish life and yet applies much to the GMHS that were sacrificed here near Glen Isla. You may or may not like my religion–I have been drunk with Jesus himself more than once. Joy is a witness he has dropped me Crown Royal sealed in the middle of a desert hike right out of the skys–added a nice stainless flask full along with the bottle. I was needing it at the time–good medicine for a sad heart. Because I once fought aliens off with 40 round back to back clips on off a colt AR-15, my friend Psychic says I have alien protection. None fell–they were holograms and I figured that out later since I was the third best shot out of 300 men in basic training at Fort Bliss, June, 1968. That was with a worn out M-14 that I had to shoot to the right about 3 ft to hit the target with. Facts are what they are and that was because we grew up not shooting tin cans and paper targets, but every bullet had to bring in something we could eat.
But the aliens==so these fifty or so chased me across the desert for hours until suddenly a very bright light hovered over me. That must have been mid night or there about. The next day I found myself walking down the Southern Pacific Railroad toward Deming NM. I was maybe 15 miles out and about 10 mile NW of where the battle started. There is more to this but all I remembered at that point was firing on those aliens of about 3-3.5 in stature and with military helmets on., running and firing through the mesquite brush, then that bright light and nothing after. I was torn and tattered from running and firing through that brush so I know this happened.
These things are true things that happened same as me dragging an eighty two pound cross from Prescott Valley Flea Market up that hill ten miles to Prescott to a little church called Church on the Street right above the Court House Square. I thought they deserved a cross for feeding the poor. I was living on the Hasayampa at the time sluicing gold–but it was a good diversion and another numismatic experience. I won’t mention the part of me dancing naked, boot only when the skys filled with demons.
You see life lived is full of strange incidences. That I would be one to witness 19 young lives about to be eradicated in a few short minutes after passing them was a page in my life I could live without. Because I know the meaning of life, because I too lost my son, I had my heart torn as much as if those people had been with and near my son when he had his arm torn from his body due to overlooked and faulty equipment.
We never forget these problems. May the gods help us if we do not correct situations that cause these unwarranted deaths of our young heroes.
Joy, not in too good of health tonight==telling me use the Surprise Hospital, not Prescott, says it sounds like you had ten guiness beers. But what you say is true. And I say does it matter? Much I say. A lie accomplishes negative, Truth cleans the slate and is life.
Reply to Charlie ( Sonny ) post April 16, 2016 at 8:51 pm
>> Charlie ( Sonny ) said…
>>
>> My psychic friend said that Marsh wanted to thank me from the other side.
>> She did not know what for but saw me stooping to pick something up off
>> the ground. Well it runs a chill down my back because Joy reminded me
>> that not long ago on Easter when we visited that memorial in Prescott all
>> the 19 in there had flowers but his spot did not. It appeared it had blown
>> from its vessel some distance from the spot, so I picked it up and stooped
>> down an put it there in his vessel. I don’t know if that is his actual grave
>> since WTKTT tells me many are buried else where but it looks like
>> 19 graves there.
Yes, Sonny. Eric Marsh is actually buried there where you replaced his flowers.
Here is who is actually buried there… and who is NOT…
Only 11 of the 19 Granite Mountain Hotshots are ‘actually’ buried there at that ‘special memorial site’ at the ‘Arizona Pioneers Home Cemetery’ in Prescott.
Most/all public and private cemeteries have ‘online interment registries’ these days, and the ‘Arizona Pioneers Home Cemetery’ is no exception.
Here is the online page that lists ALL interments at the ‘Arizona Pioneers Home Cemetery’ ( a subsection of which is also known as Simmons Cemetery )..
http://www.findagrave.com/cgi-bin/fg.cgi?page=gsr&GScid=56964
** Names of the 11 ( ELEVEN ) GMIHC Hotshots that
** DO appear in their ‘interment registry’…
Ashcraft, Andrew – Age: 29
Caldwell, Robert – Age: 23
Marsh, Eric – Age: 43
McKee, Grant – Age: 21
Norris, Scott – Age: 28
Parker, Wade – Age: 22
Steed, Jesse – Age: 36
Thurston, Joe – Age: 32
Turbyfill, Travis – Age: 27
Whitted, Clayton – Age: 28
Zuppiger, Garret – Age: 27
** Names of the 8 ( EIGHT ) GMIHC Hotshots that
** do NOT appear in their ‘interment registry’…
NOTE: The ‘Burial’ information shown below for these Hotshots who are NOT buried in Prescott is shown exactly the way it appears in the National Level ‘Find a Grave’ database, as of this writing.
Carter, Travis – Age: 31
Burial: Unknown for ‘Travis Clay Carter’ born August 7, 1982, died June 30, 2013.
Deford, Dustin – Age: 24
Burial: Beaver Lodge Cemetery, Ekalaka, Carter County, Montana, USA.
MacKenzie, Christopher – Age: 30
Burial: San Jacinto Valley Cemetery, San Jacinto, Riverside Countym California, USA.
Misner, Sean – Age: 26
Burial: Cremated, Location of ashes is unknown.
Percin, John – Age: 24
Burial: Cremated, Ashes given to family or friend.
Rose, Anthony – Age: 23
Burial: Buried near Zion, Illinois. Exact location is unknown.
Warneke, William – Age: 25
Burial: Marana Mortuary and Cemetery, Marana, Pima County, Arizona, USA.
Woyjeck, Kevin – Age: 21
Burial: Forest Lawn Memorial Park (Long Beach), Long Beach, Los Angeles County, California, USA.
Thanks WTKTT. Damn I hope the movie industry and anyone investigating this historic tragic event consults you. Shit, you are on top of everything–you must be some kin here cause my offspring have those kinds of abilities–and Joy is blessed that way too. Anyone doing an article, movie, or wanting to know details would be crazy not to consult with you.
So I did the right thing with Marsh. I have a heart for that man because I really believe he had up to four big cheeses on his ass to make a move to do what they do–protect structures. I think that was premier with them and secondary to Hot Shoting. I am some ambivalent because Bob Powers, Norb, Ted, Gary, RTS and others here on this site will tell you they never ever would have taken their crews down from where Joy wanted to go parallel to their actions. Every time I think about how stern and non forgiving with Joy was, I wonder how they could have done this thing. Willis said those men can go through that kind of brush where an ordinary person can not. Well I am ordinary and made it through although belatedly. Why I still am stymied at how they could do that and I am certain the men I aforementioned are not, since they do know what the plan, push, and evidence shows. People do not keep secrets on 19 deaths. And mostly when I surmise something these fellows that know their shit say yes–GMHS bad screw up. All starting with Bob, Ted, Gary, Norb, RTS and others that have looked at the situation say hell no–we would never have our men go down in that trap. Yet I am stymied how Marsh and Steed gave in–it makes one wonder if Marsh had something hanging over his head–was structure protection their main item and being the Hot Shot a secondary occupation. Well in this case the Hybrid Wild Land Fire Figher idea was a Fucked up Idea. Maybe not for all but for the GMHS it certainly did not work out for shit.
Side note- I did e mail Ted on what fires he might know about where men were killed while following the LCES and the 10 and 18– I wanted to know other than extraneous situations like fire trucks running over people or meteorites and trees falling on heads. No response yet — he will need some time on that one.
Well the world does get strange. When Joy took me off life support–Docs did not know that I had that mandate–and I came back to earth, it classifies me as a zombie. You know, dead man walking–second time maybe which even a wooden stake though the heart might not stop me. Well six stainless stents near the heart haven’t yet. But I have helped the medical profession for near a million dollars and a heli copter pilot for tens of thousands.
Strange because I built a beautiful fence and rode my Harley ( I call it my motor bike) around and hiked a lousy 15 miler a couple times up the weaver I am now thought to be a war lock. OK, Kathy Weaver seriously said that but I wasn’t the one that backed a bulldozer into her Dad’s house during the Yarnell fire and when did warlocks shoot aliens through and through? Strange how people get ideas. So anyway Joy put up several signs on my nicely made fence-Beware of our Zombie Chickens (our neighbors, the Flippins, had turned me in for 3 chickens unleashed and on the loose but the county when they came out could not see any violation there) so they again turned me in on burning but the local fire department saw I was doing good instead of bad and also I saw they were doing good works and promised to do a hell of a lot better (they already are) than the last watch.
So Joy has another sign, beware Zombies eat trespasser brains–(but you are OK.) I wonder who she means on that one.
Life is good –don’t let it pass you by with unseemly behavior by such things as circling the wagons and withholding the truth. Accolades mean nothing and advancements when they are gained through deceit and deception.
While we are speaking of THE TEN STANDARD ORDERS let me add—————-
The Orders were published after the 1956 fatality study.
The orders were forward looking at that time and still are.
They are so well thought out that even though people have manipulated them tried to change them they have stood the test of time.
LCES is nothing more than a short version of some of them #4,#5.#7.
They have been proven over time to be the best there ever was and the best there ever will be.
Every Wild land fire agency out side the US has adopted them that in its self says all you need to know.
No one in 60 years has come up with any thing better for a guide to fire safety.
So to any one who thinks they are old or backward looking, Used to accuse Fire Fighters of failure
when there are fatalities listen to what you are saying. They are there to tell you what to do that is safe. When you have a fire fatality or accident they will stand out as a cause. They were designed because of fatalities that occurred prior to 1956. They stood out as the most probable cause of the Fire Fatality.
What far reaching and new rules would be better than the current ones?
You will find that you will come back to them every time. They have saved and continue to save Hundreds of thousands of Wild Land Fire Fighters every year around the world. Its not just the Forest Service its every agency every where.
**
** FORMER GM HOTSHOT SAYS…
**
** “GM GOT KILLED BY THEIR OVERHEAD”
The ‘discussion’ that Mr. David Turbyfill ( father of deceased GMIHC Hotshot Travis Turbyfill ) started last week on his PUBLIC “Yarnell Fire Realities” Facebook page continues to see new comments appearing.
That thread started by Mr. Turbyfill following his participation in the April 5 ‘Beta Staff Ride’, and which he calls “more than disappointing” could be called the ‘WAKE UP!!’ thread since Mr. Turbyfill is now appealing to all WFFs to be aware that their ‘overhead’ is leaving them totally “on their own” and they all need to watch out for THEMSELVES.
( Standard Watch Out: Death from above ).
https://www.facebook.com/YarnellFireRealities/?rc=p
A very interesting comment was added just 6 hours ago, by a fellow named Bee Tschorn.
Bee Tschorn is a former Granite Mountain Hotshot, who was VERY close to Eric Marsh and who says ( on his own totally PUBLIC Facebook page ), that Eric was almost a father-figure to him and that, to him, Eric Marsh is (quote) “The man I owed the success of my life to, and thank you for helping me to find God, Eric”.
Bee Tschorn is also a VERY close friend of Brendan McDonough’s, and there are also PUBLIC photos on Tschorn’s PUBLIC Facebook page showing a recent visit he received from McDonough up in Vermont, where Tschorn now lives and runs an organic nursery he named “Granite Mountain Organics” and where Tschorn is now also ( apparently ) working as a ‘Fuels Tech’ for the US Forestry Service.
In his comment from 6 hours ago, Bee Tschorn makes a pretty strong claim.
Bee Tschorn says, unequivocally, that people who ‘really know’ what happened know that Granite Mountain got ‘killed’ by the Arizona Forestry overhead working the fire that day.
“…all of us that know the crew and were really there and involved in this knows the granite mountain got screwed Granite Mountain didn’t make any mistakes and didn’t do anything stupid or out of the ordinary they got killed by their overhead.”
Tschorn’s comment was in response to a comment from Steven Daly, made yesterday, who says he worked on the Doce fire with Eric Marsh, Jesse Steed and Granite Mountain, and who simply cannot understand why GM would have left the safe-black to descend into a death trap since (quote) “Nothing about what the weather did was unexpected or out of the ordinay”.
Here is that recent ‘exchange’ from Yesterday and today over at ‘Yarnell Fire Realities’…
——————————————————————————————-
Comment by: Steven Daly – Yesterday at 11:02am
We, as well as Granite Mountain IHC, were on the Doce Fire outside of Prescott 10 days before this. Same weather, same fuel, same fire activity. Nothing about what the weather did was unexpected or out of the ordinary. So why leave safety to go into a death trap?
Comment by: Jody Prummer – Yesterday at 11:14am
I agree Steven. We were also down there and got home the day before the accident.
Comment by: Bee Tschorn – 6 hours ago
Anyone that thinks that the weather was the same on the Dosie fire is an uneducated firefighter anyone that thinks that the fuel type was the same as equally as uneducated Brandon Mcdonagh was on both those fires and straight from his mouth he said he never seen fire activity like he did that day and Yarnell hill No one can say anything and less they were there firsthand and all of us that know the crew and were really there and involved in this knows the granite mountain got screwed Granite Mountain didn’t make any mistakes and didn’t do anything stupid or out of the ordinary they got killed by their overhead And it’s time for hotshot superintendents to stand up for the men and women that work on the ground and don’t turn your back on your brothers when something happens to them it shows how united you really are not
——————————————————————————————-
Well that is expected from some one who knew Marsh.
Its circle the wagons first.
How ever the fire, weather and fuels say that they did make several mistakes.
And many have said that the fire did as predicted. Weather it was like the Dosie fire or not
supposedly the weather was the same.
They did every thing right except follow the 10 and 18 and LCES.
I believe I know Steven Daly if he is the one he has a hell of a back ground in Fire.
AS I have said over and over your overhead can not kill you. You still have the ability to think for your self and use ALL the safety rules. Many a HOT SHOT CREW has said no to all kinds of overhead way back into history Since 1957 with out recourse.
I would like to see the information and Name or Names of the overhead that they are talking about here. Even a Run down from Ted Putnam would open a few doors. Until then it is still a assumption that there were any orders above Marsh.
Every supervisor I ever had on and off the Fire Line always told me You are responsible for the safety of the men under you and no one else. If its unsafe don’t do it. Your crew is your number one priority from 1 man to 1oo you are the accountable person because you are with your crew and you are right there.
Reply to Bob Powers post on April 18, 2016 at 2:29 pm
>> Bob Powers also said…
>>
>> Well that is expected from some one who knew Marsh.
Well… yes… and he didn’t just KNOW him. We’re talking about someone who says he ‘owes the success of his life’ to Marsh and also that Marsh “helped him find God”.
However… what he just had to say DOES remain ‘interesting’… especially since this guy is GOOD FRIENDS with McDonough and one might be able to assume that this guy knows some/all of the things that McDonough has always been ( and remains ) afraid to talk about.
>> Bob Powers also said…
>>
>> I would like to see the information and Name or Names of the
>> overhead that they are talking about here.
Ditto. I wonder just how ‘unequivocal’ this statement really is.
In other words… COULD it be that this guy really DOES know some details that haven’t been made public… and he might have heard them from his ‘brother’ McDonough… and that’s why he’s making this attempted ‘statement of fact’…
…or is it just more “I can’t accept ANY criticism of people I knew personally… so it must have been everyone’s else’s fault” crap.
>> Bob Powers also said…
>>
>> Even a Run down from Ted Putnam would open a few doors.
>> Until then it is still a assumption that there were any orders
>> above Marsh.
Ah… yes… but even though we still don’t know WHO said it… ( some OPS person on the Staff Ride? ) or what the exact ‘context’ was… RTS himself has also reported that even just last week… the ‘wagons are still circled’ and prepared to CHALLENGE any ‘evidence’ in that regard with…
“Of course… y’all know that we NEVER actually GIVE anyone any actual ORDERS when we’re fighting a fire… right?”
The ‘circled wagons’ still have these ‘logos’ painted on the sides…
1. There are no ‘Rules of Engagement’ that need to be strictly OBEYED when fighting a fire. There are only some ‘guidelines’.
2. No one ever gives anyone any real ORDERS. Just ‘Suggestions’.
Ha–what a bull shit that they don’t give strict orders and expect the chain of command to follow. Their creed is well written and documented–photos of the sign telling people if you want to be a hot shot be ready to strictly take orders daily. So now they want to delete that afer killing 19?
Bob said:
“AS I have said over and over your overhead can not kill you. You still have the ability to think for your self and use ALL the safety rules. Many a HOT SHOT CREW has said no to all kinds of overhead way back into history Since 1957 with out recourse. ”
I agree with you. However, I want to point out that GM was no regular federal land management agency sponsored IHC. Their genesis, culture, and sponsor was very different than what we have had in the history of hotshot crews.
Bob said:
“Every supervisor I ever had on and off the Fire Line always told me You are responsible for the safety of the men under you and no one else. If its unsafe don’t do it. Your crew is your number one priority from 1 man to 1oo you are the accountable person because you are with your crew and you are right there.”
Again, I agree with you but I want to point out the same thing:
GM was no regular federal land management agency sponsored IHC. Their genesis, culture, and sponsor was very different than what we have had in the history of hotshot crews.
Offered for consideration.
Woodsman
You may have a point how ever severial were Ex FS including Steed who RTS said he Trained. Marsh wanted to be FS he tried to copy every thing he learned
from his time in FS.
Marsh met with and worked with many of the Superintendents so there may have been some culture there.
But I hear what you are saying.
If donut and his friend got together and talked to God then maybe they got the wrong message back. The Doce fire is that one right west of Prescott then that is baloney about it being a different thing here. The conditions were approximately identical. Plenty of manzanita and all the weather reports of wind change and high velocity causing the same problems. Joy and I drive by there quite regularly, her husband every day. If you need photos of all the manzanita in that area we can provide.
The Doce fire is easily reviewed. You have to pass through the burn area on the way to Prescott from Skull Valley. There is about 2 miles of burned area, all in manzanita with boulders and steep hills around there. Adjoining to the west along the highway some more manzanita like the Yarnell Death Basin. You damn sure Do Not want to be caught in that shit if a blaze starts up. You never see livestock in there or even deer==they cant get through it yet hotshots like donut can.
Reply to Charlie ( Sonny ) post on April 18, 2016 at 7:53 pm
>> Charlie ( Sonny ) said…
>>
>> The Doce fire is easily reviewed. You have to pass
>> through the burn area on the way to Prescott from
>> Skull Valley. There is about 2 miles of burned area,
>> all in manzanita with boulders and steep hills around
>> there. Adjoining to the west along the highway some
>> more manzanita like the Yarnell Death Basin.
Exactly… and this ‘fact’ was not lost on the FFs who are currently authoring the official ‘Yarnell Hill Staff Ride’.
On page 4 of the official ‘Yarnell Hill Staff Ride Guide’… they are TELLING their ‘Facilitators’ to do EXACTLY what you just suggested.
As the ‘Staff Ride Participants’ are being driven from Prescott down to Yarnell in the ‘buses’… the ‘Staff Ride Facilitators’ are SUPPOSED to point out all the ‘similarities’ between the ‘Doce Fire’ and the ‘Yarnell Hill Fire’… and to also point out how all the ‘resources’ that were responding were SUPPOSED to be fully aware of these SIMILARITIES and should have known fully well what to ‘expect’ in Yarnell.
See a longer ‘Reply’ about this up above as a new parent comment, including a reproduction of the page from the actual ‘Yarnell Hill Fire Staff Ride Guide’ that talks all about this…
http://www.investigativemedia.com/please-begin-yarnell-hill-fire-chapter-xx-here/#comment-332750
Except for one thing Bob. I am a miner, mucker and bad mother fucker. I was the Crasius Clay of miners. If I did not have that attitude, then I wasn’t a fucking miner. The minute a helper challenged anything I had to say his ass may as well been grass. I was the boss because I mined since I was nine. Now don’t these Hot Shot bosses have the same attitude if they really are hot shots? Or do they get their stars because a neighbor is a hot shot boss and likes their lick ass enough to put them in charge? You boys do have a different system to move up. A miner either is or ain’t, but maybe the wild land fire bosses get there through a paper issued out of some ass hole Academy afraid of offending Amanda and through some one they knew intimately enough to move them up the ladder. Bob and others talk of this new thing where your experience does not amount to a lot against the crony system in place.
Yes, Sonny…that is the way I was, no question about it. And I am once again a backslider who could not help taking a free shot at Bob and his bullshit…Bob’s Bullshit But…I am going to limit myself to just one more comment like an alcoholic limits himself to just one more drink.
Bob said, “You may have a point how ever severial were Ex FS including Steed who RTS said he Trained. Marsh wanted to be FS he tried to copy every thing he learned from his time in FS”.
Yes, that is true but just like Marsh was by all outward appearances the “perfect” hotshot crew boss, he was a deeply flawed clone that had all of the physical attributes of the ultimate hotshot but had serious malware and several virus’ somewhere deep in his programmed software.
And lastly, to get my most bang for the buck on my single drink (other than the easy shot at Bob) I want to clear up some confusion for WTKTT who is colored confused right now. I know that Eric Marsh was not the first male in the history of the world who became whatever he needed to be in order to get the woman of his dream.
So…if I had to take a wild guess, I would guess Eric became a Buddhist sometime after he met Amanda. God? Buddha? Allah? Yahweh? The Great Creator? Aren’t they all kind of the same thing when it comes to getting the girl? I think we all know what makes men tick…right?
Whoops…this doesn’t count because I got lost trying to figure out why in God’s name Marsh was a Buddhist of all things, and may the Great Creator Bless All Buddhists, but I forgot my main point, the deeply flawed Marsh build an equally deeply flawed hotshot crew that was indeed a blueprint for disaster because of “their genesis, culture, and sponsor.”
Followup…
This is just more proof of the ‘connection’ between Bee Tschorn, Eric Marsh, Brendan McDonough, and the Granite Mountain Hotshot organization in order to put Bee Tschorn’s recent comments ( posted above ) into ‘context’…
But it also includes something a little confusing about who was ‘converting’ who, and what actual religious ‘beliefs’ and/or ‘tenets’ were involved.
The story of the ‘evangelical’ nature of the Granite Mountain Hotshot organization itself, and whether what was going on there was just ‘normal’ or, perhaps, ‘over the top’, has been discussed before, and that ‘story’ just remains ( and WILL remain ) part of the ‘tapestry’ of ‘human factors’ associated with the organization itself.
Prescott Wildland Division Chief Darrell Willis’ religious convictions are well-known and his own almost preacher-like-wannabee tendencies/leanings are also fully known. Willis himself made those an ‘issue’ when, during the first public press conference held at the deployment site, he offered his own opinion of “God must have had a different plan for those men” as an ‘official’ explanation of why those 19 men died that day.
And the ‘evangelizing’ that was taking place inside that crew is also well docuemented, with some members of the crew with ‘evangelical’ leanings actually reporting back to their own pastors on a continuing basis about how the ‘conversions’ inside the Granite Mountain organization were ‘coming along’.
But it’s always been ( until now? ) a bit of a ‘mystery’ how ‘Eric Marsh’ himself fit into that ‘evangelical’ picture with regards to the Granite Mountain organization itself.
It was only less than a month ago, on March 21, 2016, when Brendan McDonough and former GM Hotshot Bee Tschorn were ( apparently ) spending that ‘time’ together in Vermont, where Tschorn now lives.
Bee Tschorn posted a PUBLIC photo from that McDonough visit on his own PUBLIC Facebook page…
https://www.facebook.com/bee.tschorn?fref=ufi&rc=p
—————————————————————————————-
Bee Tschorn – March 21 at 9:00am ·
PHOTO: Bee Tschorn and Brendan McDonough in front of a fireplace.
PHOTO CAPTION ( text by Bee Tschorn )…
I am so thankful for my Lord Jesus Christ for the brotherhoods that he pulled from smoldering ashes and built into Bear man beast best friends Love you so much brother thank you for your time
—————————————————————————————–
On September 28, 2013 ( the day the original SAIR report was released ), Bee Tschorn also made the following PUBLIC comment on his PUBLIC Facebook page…
——————————————————————————————
Bee Tschorn – September 28, 2013
PHOTO: Eric Marsh standing on a ridge, backlit by the setting sun.
PHOTO CAPTION ( text by Bee Tschorn )…
The man I owed the success of my life 2. thank you for helping me find God, Eric Marsh.
——————————————————————————————
But just 68 hours ago… Amanda Marsh herself posted the following comment on her own PUBLIC “Eric Marsh Foundation for Wildland Firefighters” Facebook page
“Eric was and I am a Buddhist.”
So color me ( slightly ) confused.
Bee Tschorn PUBLICLY thanks Eric Marsh for ( among other things ) “helping him find God”… and that “finding” seems to have been of the JIMLAS ( Jesus Is My Lord And Savior ) variety… just like Bredan McDonough following his ‘conversion’ by other members of the Granite Mountain Hotshots…
…but now we have Eric’s own wife saying, unequivocally, that Eric was actually a Buddhist?
For the sake of completeness ( and in case the original PUBLIC posting disappears )… here is Amanda Marsh’s complete post that she made to her PUBLIC “Eric Marsh Foundation for Wildland Firefighters” Facebook page just 68 hours ago.
And after a long period of Amanda Marsh saying that she has never really been that interested in the ‘details’ of what happened in Yarnell on Sunday, June 30, 2013… she is now suddenly saying ( PUBLICLY )…
(quote) “I want the Yarnell Hill Fire to be studied for the TRUTH of what happened so that future fighters can learn.”
https://www.facebook.com/ericmarshfoundationforwildlandfirefighters/
————————————————————————————————–
Eric Marsh Foundation for Wildland Firefighters – April 15 at 8:29pm ·
There were well over 500 people at Eric’s funeral. His funeral was very private, there would have been scores more if there wasn’t police protection. It was the worst day of my life, one of them anyway in a string of very hard days. I remember some things about that morning, but not much. I remember I couldn’t be near those who loved me, like my family. I stood with firefighters and agency personnel. Even then, I stood very much alone. I was so afraid that if anyone touched me, looked at me or said I love you I would fall apart. I often think back to that morning because the funeral service was exquisitely Eric. 7:00 AM at the lake. It was beautiful. On the ride over I saw a dead pronghorn fawn on the road. I couldn’t bare to see this beautiful creature obliterated on my way home, so my friend Jill and I stopped and grasped it’s tiny feet and moved it gently into the pasture beside us. That moment is so clear for me. That day changed my life because I saw how many people respected and loved my husband. Grown men in Forest Service uniforms were sobbing. Eric gave his life for his crew. That planted a seed in my head. It allowed me to begin to forgive all involved in that fateful event that claimed the lives of 19 great and brave and dearly loved men. It was an accident of the highest order. Eric was and I am a Buddhist. Though it was very hard for me to touch that seed of compassion on a moment by moment basis, I clung to it for life. Every person on the Yarnell Hill Fire was a contemporary of Eric’s. I don’t know enough about wildland firefighting to lay blame at anyone’s feet. I wasn’t there and I have never dug line. I do know who Eric was. He was awesome, he was so brilliant and every day he strove to be an even better man. That has inspired me to be an even better woman. I am not the same person I used to be. I have grown and changed so much. Compassion and empathy are my strongest allies. I also live deeply in the knowledge that I am only as helpful to the world as I am open to revealing myself. I am becoming more and more comfortable with knowing that grief of this order never goes away. I will carry this pain and discomfort forever. The Granite Mountain Hotshots have made me a better human being. I feel sometimes that Eric’s ultimate sacrifice was for me, too. Although I wish I could change it all, I cant. I have been forced to deeply evaluate who I am and who I wish to become. I am fierce. I am loyal. I am loving. I am deeply impacted by everything said about the crew and about Eric because they are mine and I am theirs, bound together forever. This is where my deepest vulnerability comes into play. I ask that when the Granite Mountain Hotshots are discussed it is done with kindness and sensitivity. I want the Yarnell Hill Fire to be studied for the truth of what happened so that future fighters can learn. There is truth and there are lies. I am fine with truth. The lies truly break my heart.
————————————————————————————————–
Well I happened to be right at the spot they decided to go down. God fucked up royally if he had anything to do with the decision to get those men down in that canyon or influence Marsh’s thinking. I just can’t believe their stupidity of following stupidity had any thing to do with religion–if so you best convert to my Irish lady Gods–they expected me to have sense enough not to go down there. If I did it was on me for being stupid not them for knowing better. Hey, I looked at that inferno–no purgatory there–just plain straight death and hell to pay if you dare challenged forces I saw. Bull shit about this religion bit–has nothing to do with stupidity.
David T.==man to listen to. He lost his son and trying to improve the turkey roaster blankets. Same as Zack Ashoor trying hard to invent a light device to make the O2 needed in smoke infested areas where hot shots work. Zack is now dead at 29 yr. of age. He stopped me early morning when I was walking south on 89–toward my desert camp. Said did I know how to get to where the men died–Zack was driving an older chevy 4×4 Blazer. Yep, but who was this young fellow? I looked him over–said ok I can hike you up the Weaver’s near to where they died but against the law to go right up to the fence where they died. We went up to Patties place and left his Bronco there. From Candy Cane Lane we made our hike. When we got up to the two track where the fatal order was almost completed, Zack said I must go down there. I told him now you might be arrested. Zack said I am an American Israeli, I cried when I saw the news of their deaths, those were my friends and I will stand before any judge for my actions. Zack went down and he had photos of himself made standing before the fence. He defied the bull shit of restricting that area to a few. But like Marsh, he is now dead at his young age–his asthma–and he was using oxygen that day to get up the mountain, albeit, somewhat better than I was. So he had defied your stupid orders of restriction to keep people from honoring those men and knowing what went wrong that day. But will you now dig him up so you can prosecute him? Sometimes the stupidity of the people that run the show is ridiculous. Do you think you can hide the truth?
But for Zack, I will say he is a hero–not only for his intentions for good but because he had the balls to be a free American not subject to bull shit. He died at the same age as my son–29 and in the same age bracket as the young men of the GMHS. Their leaders failed him as did my son’s bosses. But to Zack, I wonder if the fresh fumes did not add to his cause of death. You see when you are already compromised in health that 230 thousand gallon of retardant does no justice to your ability to stay alive.
Write that young man from Phoenix as one of the tragedy heroes belonging with the fellows that died. He deserves every honor they have.
As usual I write fast and furious. I meant to say their leaders (many) failed the GMHS young people. Tears your heart out that this is the case that men are dead as a direct result of the cadre in charge day one to day two to day three. But there it is and there it continues to be until those liars are brought up to give justice to the dead GMHS first, the dead, lost homes and displaced people of Yarnell and Peeples Valley, and the millions squandered of public monies.
Will you that have evidence of the crimes committed stand idly by and allow the truth to be hidden continue. Well, time is passing you by. Many have already come forward with the truth. Even Donut could not hold back, but if you do it will eat your heart out. Nineteen dead is no easy thing to with hold evidence from. But imagine that if this continues without being exposed, then the responsibility of a continuing system that kills wild land fire fighters for its careless and risk taking methods. Hybrid fire fighting? Here to stay–how many lives do you want to sacrifice?
Thanks Donut for finally getting it right. Pressure from overhead did the GMHS in –what you heard on the radio..
Just to be clear prior to the South Canyon Fire and even a few investigations after 1984 the Fatality investigation reports all Stated the violation of the 10 Standard orders Identifying each. This was one of the many things stated in the reports including the Shout watch outs. The use of these 10 and 18 started soon after 1957. If any one has the time to research these fire investigation reports you will find the specific violations individually stated.
The new no fault reports have recently been the norm due to the Law suits using the violations of the rules as the key source to bring people to court.
You can not have lessons learned if you eliminate the rules and actions that were violated thus causing the Accident or Fatalities.
The TEN STANDARD ORDERS are hard proven facts every time they are not used or followed accidents/fatalities occur. Why because they are the Basic rules of engagement. In 1956 they were identified as the reasons Fire Fighters Die. The Rules have been proven over and over to be the dividing line between safe and unsafe practices.
They can be used to keep you safe they can also end up being used to Identify what went wrong.
Dave– Supervisors Have Been Brought to Trial for bad decisions and orders that led to Fire line accidents. One such fire the Sadler Fire Nevada August 9, 1999.
Jack Blackwell Regional Forester R4
Individuals and teams will be held accountable for their actions. Our actions will demonstrate a zero tolerance for accidents and deviations from safety standards.
So what has happened to that striate forward statement and declaration since then?
Yes we are all entitled to a full investigation and holding all involved to a standard and a evaluation of their safety performance.
Some where that got lost on Yarnell Hill Fire.
There were failures from the Top down right to the crew who then failed themselves by falling into step with the other failures. There is a lot of blame to go around.
When a good crew decides this fire is being run by idiots they usually become very safety aware
and do not fall into the traps laid by incompetence. Take care of your self and your crew.
Marsh fell into the lock step with the overhead and drug his crew with him.
It is a sad thing to say but it is the truth . I truly believe Steed knew moving to BSR was a serious violation of all the rules and staying in the BLACK was the safest option. The crew would be alive to day if he would have stuck to his original decision.
Bob,
you said: “One such fire the Sadler Fire Nevada August 9, 1999.”
Anything in particular jump out at you that made you select this fire for an example in your post?
I looked at the report. Good read. There is some seriously damning information in that report, especially to overhead (not all overhead.) In the 203…Do you know who was DIV Mike on 8/9/99 Day shift? ARRR TEEEE ESSSS! Small world! Can you ask him if he received an IAP that day? Sounds like they were in short supply. Thanks.
Woodsman
Woodsman
OOPs,
Only 1 (one) single ‘Woodsman’ contributed to the previous message.
Woodsman
Woodsman it is one of the Fires covered in John Macleans book Fire and Ashes. The Rattle Snake Fire, The Sadler fire and a bit of the Mann Gulch.
I believe 4 overhead were brought before a regional review board.
They were all striped of their Team positions and their Red Card ratings.
The one I knew was the Safety Officer he was here on the Sawtooth NF.
Ill go back and pick up the names for you if you did not get them from the report..
review
Bob,
Yes, I read the entire report. Thanks for bringing it to my attention. There were major mistakes and the investigative team held no punches calling a spade a spade, along with an evaluation of the 10/18. I just noticed along as I read that Fred was there as DIV M. I wish he had been DIV O on 8/9/99…may have not had the near miss & injuries. Who knows.
The report for the Sadler Complex is chock full of mistakes in addition to the failed 10/18.
I hadn’t read about that one so thanks for pointing it out.
Woodsman
Stories Type 1 Team was Dismantled.
Those that went through training were reinstated at a lower step.
But never were allowed to be part of a team again. part of a Team again.
The Loop Fire is another example of two Hot Shot crews that refused an assignment and one El Cariso that did it any way and ended up with 12 dead Hot Shots.
You sure can Dance Bob! If we ever get together to see whose dick is bigger, please don’t make it a dance off!
https://search.yahoo.com/search;_ylc=X3oDMTFiN25laTRvBF9TAzIwMjM1MzgwNzUEaXRjAzEEc2VjA3NyY2hfcWEEc2xrA3NyY2h3ZWI-?p=famous+tap+dancer+on+youtube+&fr=yfp-t-571&fp=1&toggle=1&cop=mss&ei=UTF-8
“I used to know an ole boy who was the number two man on the Oak Grove Hotshots for a couple of years, that old man could dance!”
Link didn’t work right check out,
Aleksandr Ostanin – Ukraine
He reminds me of you when you were a young man Bob!
Woodsman,
Division M was along the front country near Carlin, NV. It was a very political fire where grazing issues seemed to take precedent.
This will be mostly from recall with a lot of things obviously NOT included in the SAIR.
Storey’s Type I IMT did NOT utilize night shifts and some ranchers would work through the night disking alongside roads, giving us a little more to work from.
We (Div M) had the Carlin Fire Chief telling us we shouldn’t burn out because it was grazing land and feed for the local ranchers.
We had either NV Executive or Legislative Branch mandated Engine Task Forces consisting of a local VFD. BLM, and NDF Engines strictly for ‘Structure Protection’ that would assist us but could/would NOT be assigned to the fire.
We had maverick ranchers lighting backfires and burning out while other ranchers had cowboys rounding up cows.
We had two South Zone CA Hot Shot Crews, so I had them scout and do their HS thing and come up with a plan.
We had a SW Engine Strike Team of Type 6 Engines so I had the STEN(T) run the Engin S/T while the STEN did much needed TFLD duties, which included a Type 2 Crew in a bus.
We also had a lot of mining activity and a trailer full of explosives at one of the drop points.
Our Division m started to blow out in afternoon, so we pulled everyone back to the drop point.
We heard some of the other back-country Division O/Q? activity go down over the radio as it occurred.
I recall the Branch Director calling OPS to notify him that they had an incident, with some people taking some heat, and a lot of people taking smoke, but everything was alright.
The next morning, the IMT Safety Officer notified us at briefing that there was an incident and aside from some smoke issues, everything and everyone involved was fine.
DIVS O/Q had directed the two HS Crews (Smokey Bear and Dalton) that had been there for days, anchor and flanking and burning out with a dozer, to cease what they were doing and go to the unanchored head of the fire. They refused and continued to SAFELY AND SUCCESSFULLY anchor and flank the fire.
The Golden Gate NPS Crew and Engine Crew and overhead went to the unanchored head of the fire with loads of unburned fuel between them, so basically a frontal assault.
The Engine Crew at least disengaged once they were overwhelmed with spots and slopovers and other indicators. The GGNPS Crew, however, ignored all the indicators and Watch Outs until they were burned over.
Long story, short, one of the females on the GGNPS Crew received face and neck AND AIRWAY burns, enough to cough up blood. Her pack straps melted off as she was running INTO THE GREEN from the slopover.
That night, we heard some traffic on the radio but didn’t know what to make of it until the next day.
The following day, the SAIT and involved WFF’s visited the burnover site only to find a dozer-built Safety Zone that was NOT there the previous day, which explained some of the radio traffic the night prior.
The IMT attempted to blame the two HS Crews for sending “a river of fire” toward the DIV O/Q WFF’s, that the “column collapsed,” and that a “thunderhead collapsed” causing outflow winds, NONE OF WHICH OCCURRED.
I warned the two HS Supts of the IMT’s intentions the following day and was summarily and swiftly demobbed from the fire.
The GGNPS Crew Boss was interviewed at a later date and asked what he would have done differently since he had time to reflect on the incident and such.
You guessed it – he said he would have done NOTHING different, he would have done everything the same!
So, the NPS decided to pull his Crew Boss qualifications and retrain and recertify him as a Crew Boss
Right on Bob. These fellows did what they did–Marsh and Steed did kill their men by reckless abandon. WTKTT has the proper words there Negligent Homicides. Yet we have to spread the blame here beyond that–to what degree is the thing to determine. First off three fire departments local failed to take care of a cowboy lightening strike. Any cowboy or two could have easiliy contained. The new cookie cutter cowboy with ATV’s and planes equipped with retardant could have really doused the shit out of it. But we have so god damned many pussy type people that won’t even respond to a little lightening strike that it ballons into a full fledged man eating wild fire. So the blame starts from day one and it is spred so much that all we can see is a bunch of ninnys taking awards for a job well done. The publc eats this hero crap up and the cadre feeds them all they can. Yet the men in the know fine the shit out of these people for a bad job.
I say spend a few more hundred thousand for the old gold miners around here need a place to park their rigs while they pan gold. The Weavers has plenty of gold but if you park along the road here you will get a big red ticked pasted on your windshield, a tow truck and a fine for leaving your vehicle too long. So those parking places will be safe, I hope.
Better yet get the truth out and spent a bundle of millions to straighten up a system that is killing wild land fire fighters. People in the know that talk here are not stupid or ignorant. They know that the system needs help and will continue to kill these young men if it is not revamped and people like those that rant the Yarnell Fire Odeal are not held accountable for their negligent operation that has killed so many, destroyed so many home displacing so many and wasted so many millions of tax payer dollars that should have instead been spent toward improving wild land fire fighting conditions.
Bob Powers said this some days ago
>>>>Show me a fire where all the rules were followed and someone died.<<<<<<<
Bob and others, at the SR Monday night get together the Presenters spoke of 3 fatalities that in fact this Was and IS the case. "You can do everything right and still die" for more information on this all that care should read the latest 2 More Chains issue, covers one such incident that Brit Rosso was personaly involved in.
Brit, was a presenter and part of the Cadre on the YHSR.
In the coming days I will be posting more information and try to DISRUPT the current Wildland FireFighting Tactics and Stratagies, it is my belief that these beliefs and CULTURE of WFF is what all seem to buy into, and so did GMIHC, to the point of their deaths.
The Wildland Fire community at large can and should take actions, Overhead is leaving you on your own. They have the 10-18 to relieve them of their responsabilties, and as most of WFF live and breath it.
WAKE UP!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!