Chapter I, Chapter II, Chapter II supplement, Chapter III, Chapter IV, Chapter V, Chapter VI, Chapter VII, Chapter VIII , Chapter IX, Chapter X, Chapter XI, Chapter XII , Chapter XIII, Chapter XIV, Chapter XV, Chapter XVI, Chapter XVII, Chapter XVIII, Chapter XIX, Chapter XX and Chapter XXI.
© Copyright 2016 John Dougherty, All rights Reserved. Written For: Investigative MEDIA
There is some confusion as to what I think of Eric Marsh. So…just to be clear, I don’t believe Mr. Marsh was a murderer. I do however, firmly believe Mr. Marsh was clearly guilty of 17 counts of manslaughter according to Arizona law.
I believe that because I can read and comprehend the English language at a competent level. If you can do the same, then either you will agree with me, or you are a person who lives in denial and wants the world to be as you want it to be, rather than how it really is.
Now…both the police and prosecutors have enormous duscreation, we can even say they have complete discretion, as to whether to investigate and subsequently charge a person with any crime or not. But just because a person is never charged with a crime, certainly does not mean they are not guilty of that crime, it just means they are lucky or beyond the reach of the law…like being dead.
I am also a reasonable person, so if anyone can read the following law and explain why Mr. Marsh is not guilty of 17 counts of manslaughter, I would certainly like to read it. Othwise, there is no doubt in my mind nor should there be any doubt in yours, that the acts of both Mr. Marsh and Jesse Steed leading up to the deaths of their crew clearly and squarely meet the very definition of, “Recklessly causing the death of another person.”
If deliberately violating almost all of the rules and guidelines of wildland firefighting at the same time isn’t reckless and against repeated warnings not to, I don’t know what reckless is. I didn’t write the law, shooting the messenger won’t change the facts…or the law. And for that I am deeply sorry, I wish I could.
https://www.azleg.gov/ars/13/01103.htm
13-1103. Manslaughter; classification
A. A person commits manslaughter
1. Recklessly causing the death of another person; or
2. Committing second degree murder as prescribed in section 13-1104, subsection A upon a sudden quarrel or heat of passion resulting from adequate provocation by the victim; or
3. Intentionally providing the physical means that another person uses to commit suicide, with the knowledge that the person intends to commit suicide; or
4. Committing second degree murder as prescribed in section 13-1104, subsection A, paragraph 3, while being coerced to do so by the use or threatened immediate use of unlawful deadly physical force upon such person or a third person which a reasonable person in his situation would have been unable to resist; or
5. Knowingly or recklessly causing the death of an unborn child by any physical injury to the mother.
B. An offense under subsection A, paragraph 5 of this section applies to an unborn child in the womb at any stage of its development. A person shall not be prosecuted under subsection A, paragraph 5 of this section if any of the following applies:
1. The person was performing an abortion for which the consent of the pregnant woman, or a person authorized by law to act on the pregnant woman’s behalf, has been obtained or for which the consent was implied or authorized by law.
2. The person was performing medical treatment on the pregnant woman or the pregnant woman’s unborn child.
3. The person was the unborn child’s mother.
C. Manslaughter is a class 2 felony.
Wow–Thanks Gary! Well said and written from a long time professional in criminal investigations and with a long history of working and managing wild fire crews. That explanation of what is reasonable in fair play and justice should be penned to every wild land fire fighter walls in big print to remind those that are prone to take careless action risking lives just to protect structures might not be a wise option.
I had a long phone talk with Joy today and despite her health conditions after long exposure to the orange poisons claimed as necessity to kill forest fires and put out human lives, she was her usual positve self. She had said that people tend to loose memory of events in about ten years–this being about 8 since the deaths of the GMHS crew. However, we will never forget the tragedy since we stood on that two track at the exact spot only moments before that crew of 18 descended down into the manzanita trap to be killed by careless direction of their bosses. So as I read Gary’s notes about the incident, even though it brings a sadness, truth is the only thing that will prevent future deaths of young heroes that did not deserve to die from needless and careless procedures avoiding all good sense and safety measures. Those heroes will forever remain in our memories.
Also, we had a three way conversation including Scottie Briggs. He is about to wind up his true documentary of the Yarnell incident–I thing he has for many years been gathering evidence, interviewing and working with Joy and others in the wild land fire fighting community to get details along with filming to make a professional presentation for public viewing. It will be a fresh and true view without the political and agenda influence so people will finally get a filmed documentary with no holds barred to truth. It behooves anyone that has information important to a documentary to contact Joy or Scottie so that information might be added. Forensic presentation can be helped with the what might seem to be the most insignificant evidence. Omission is often commission in a crime and this tragedy has the magnitude of being one of the worst and likely the worst of the century in wild land fire fighter avoidable disasters.
It was nice to see your State Senator Karen Fenn working with others to get the political mess and screwed up voting system corrected. Too many of those politicians work for themselves and not the people–Pelochi making millions off the stocks on Tesla looks to me like a conflict of interest–but then I did not like Trump particularly for President, yet in the end he did do some work for the people. But the worst of it is when elections are rigged and whether I liked him or not, he was the democratic choice and ought not to be cheated. But politics and shiney white teeth frozen on a political mouth that opens always lets out a host of flies. May God Bless the Country and those true heroes that stand firm and for the people. Slainte
**
** NEW CHAPTER XXIII ( 23 ) HAS BEEN STARTED
Here’s a direct link to the new Chapter XXIII ( 23 ) of this ongoing discussion…
http://www.investigativemedia.com/please-begin-yarnell-hill-fire-chapter-xxiii-here/
YARNELL FIRE NUMBER 3
YEAH.
my cell got smashed yesterday but I got an unusual text- I thought it was OLD so I called the number because it use to have name tied to number but the cell drop screwed my cell…anyways it was a text at 3:13pm when a local called fire dept and the fire dept DID NOT KNOW about smoke/fire in the hills NE at 2pm…wasn’t 4 million enough?
keep you posted…maybe Alan Sinclair’s time making movie will be on pause to come handle another fire…heading to fire dept now…
Alan Sinclair is assigned to the ‘Fuller’ fire at the moment.
He MAY have only been ‘on set’ back on July 11 and 12 just to watch his son, Ethan Sinclair, play one of the FAKE ‘Blue River Hotshots’.
In other words… no ‘contracted’ ongoing ‘commitment’ to the ‘FILLUM’.
Nothing showing up online about any new ‘fire’ in Yarnell. Not yet, anyway.
Nothing yet. I went to asses it by text locations… One near the church and one near five miles out. I called yfd and got message machine requesting call back on a 2pm call the chief received on a fire and I will be adding this to a request so need new FOIA form and its followup to this call because peeples valley FD and contracted dispatcher heard nothing on frequency for this area today. Man Hall and Whittaker are having a beautiful third and final round on ufc. I had to call and cancel out a surgeon… Based on their fabricated doc notes but all she added that did not match my sound recorded visit but what she added was a total cover her ass if surgery went wrong but never happened… I don’t care if she claims to be the best if you can lie as simple as first visit get to know and ready for surgery than what would you do if you foul up surgery…sure hate when people have angles and agendas and lies to make sure they are clear…God will handle them but they won’t cut on me…is our world just a bullshit or do I seem to draw it in…???
Muzzy says
JULY 21, 2016 AT 7:14 PM
So Gary,
I read (can’t remember where) of at least two IHCs that prided themselves on their diverse membership. Was I dreaming?
And I say, No…you are probably just confused by the alphabet soup of letters for all of these agencies, USFS, BLM, NPS, BIA, USF&WS. All of these wildland firefighters all look alike to YOU PEOPLE but there are HUGE differences between the primary federal agencies with wildland firefighting responsibilities.
There are also very deep divides and interagency prejudices that rival the very worst racial issues that divide our country…most of them are fully justified. BUT…I would have to write a book (gee, now there is an idea) to explain what those are, the reasons for them, and all of the nuances in between those reasons that would fully explain them.
But…back to what you are asking about. The USFS is like the military…it is generally color blind and a true equal opportunity employer as long as you aren’t a woman or gay, black, brown, white and every shade in between is okay…just as long as you are male…and straight.
The BIA…not so much. Their agency is BUILT upon a sold foundation of complete and total Congressional, Judicial and Executive Branch approved racial discrimination that not only favors Native Americans, but hires ONLY (almost always, almost no exceptions) Native Americans.
IF you want to know what kind of problems this policy CAN lead to,,,read this comment and multiply the problem times an entire federal agency at every level. And I do love my Native American brothers and sisters, but I am still THAT GUY!
And of course, anytime you severely limit you pool of qualified candidates…you will accomplish two big things right away. You will hire only THOSE people and you WILL NOT get the best people and sometimes you will get only those people who are in completely over their heads and pose a real danger to themselves and the community they are supposed to be serving from their first day on the job.
http://www.investigativemedia.com/please-begin-yarnell-hill-fire-chapter-xxii-here/#comment-342506
Any more questions? If you have them, ask someone else.
Oh…and one more thing just to show you how much I do love my Native American brothers and sisters, the bottom of the wildland firefighting barrel is without a doubt comprised of almost all Anglo people in…the National Park Service.
They are “Numba 10”, as my old Vietnam vet crewmen used to say, except for those who came from the USFS. AND Native Americans have a long and proud tradition of fighting wildfires in this nation and many of them are “Numba 1.”
I was raised on the Happy Jack (AKA Hopi Jack) Hotshots by a Native American crew boss who was one of the best and much of our crew was Native American. In addition, our district AFMO was Native American as was almost all of the rest of the district fire personnel back in the day. They were all some of the best who ever saddled up to hit the fire line.
I am going to stop writing now before I go to far. Whoops….too late.
Thanks Gary,
How do you keep the players straight without a scorecard?
Well…after so many years of total immersion, it becomes a way of life. And when I said, “Any more questions? If you have them, ask someone else.” I just meant more questions about the third rail…race relations and interagency politics to a lesser degree.
The Prescott Fire Department of the GMIHC where just the tip of the iceberg and it really gets complicated when you go below the federal level to the myriad of other agencies who now play the game.
It is all very tribal or maybe like the Game of Thrones? Although I. don’t think I have the cable package that has that show on it because I have never seen it…so that is a real shot in the dark while searching for an appropriate analogy.
Bob said,
Bob Powers says
JULY 22, 2016 AT 7:18 AM
You are a real case of I am important and know it all.
But if you check Woody wood pecker holds a copy right that will put you in court if you use it without a release to you. Yap its like Smokey.
I expect you to be proud of your logo as I am of mine
and I have two others that I worked with.
CHILAO and SWATOOTH.
I am as proud to have served on all three.
OH we were building hot line and chasing the flames while your crews were MOPPING UP.
Our LOGO was recognized nation wide I don’t even remember yours. Burnt trees that’s all you saw because they brought you in for mop up. Latrine duty ???????
And I say, “I really do love you Bob…in a manly kind of way, not an Oak Grove Hotshot kind of way.”
Just a game of hot shot jabs. No insults intended. Bump up, Bump up, Coming Through Coming Through. Love you to in a hot shot way.
Hay have you noticed some crews have changed their Logos to new ones.
No…I can’t even wrap my head around the fact that there are now over 100 hotshot crews from so many different agencies, much less learn their names or logos. I was raised with the supreme sense of superiority that ONLY the USFS should have hotshot crews.
**
** FISH OUT OF WATER
Repy to Gary Olson post on July 21, 2016 at 2:02 am
>> Gary Olson said…
>>
>> I am going to stick with my opinion that the name, the “Blue Ridge Hotshots”
>> is in the public domain as well as the work Brian Frisby did on behalf of
>> the American tax payers on the Yarnell Hill Fire while he was on the
>> government payroll.
>>
>> So… the big question remains, why all the changes?
>>
>> And why the fuck couldn’t they have come up with a better logo than a fish
>> jumping out of a river for a bad ass U.S. Forest Service Hotshot Crew and
>> saved that logo for a movie about an anglers retreat or bed and breakfast
>> in a “River Runs Through It” or whatever?
>>
>> The only thing worse would have been a Woody Woodpecker with a shovel
>> over his head chasing some flames with a face… am I right?
Well… maybe the (quote) “only thing worse” would be something along the lines of going to all that trouble to avoid any legal conflict(s) with the REAL “Blue Ridge Hotshots” Type 1 IHC organization’s name/logo ownership rights… and then just STEALING your FAKE logo for your FAKE Type 1 IHC Crew from yet ANOTHER legitimate and REAL Type 1 IHC Hotshot organization.
As in… the “Salmon River Hotshots”, based in California.
Here is a PUBLIC photo of the ACTUAL logo for the ACTUAL ‘Salmon River Hotshots’ showing a ‘river’ in the bottom half of the logo and a ‘Salmon’ jumping out of the river ( EXACTLY like the ‘made up’ logo for the movie’s FAKE ‘Blue River Hotshots’ )…
The ‘Salmon River Hotshots’ logo is the first one on the far left in the top row on the following page…
https://www.pinterest.com/pin/558446422516728833/
And ( once again ), here is a PUBLIC photo posted from ‘the set’ of the ‘FILLUM’ showing their FAKE ‘Blue River Hotshots’ logo on the ‘Helmets’ sitting on the bumper of a vehicle…
https://www.instagram.com/p/BHx_XUIju__/?taken-by=darineppich&hl=en
The ‘movie people’ even used the same BLUE and YELLOW SKY-BACKGROUND colors for their FAKE ‘Blue River Hotshots’ logo as the REAL ‘Salmon River Hotshots’ logo.
You. Just. Can’t. Make. This. Stuff. Up.
I think if this 55-60+ MILLION dollar ‘FILLUM’ actually makes any money ( or even if it doesn’t? )… the REAL ‘Salmon River Hotshots’ in California should at least get a couple of new ATVs out of the deal.
Here’s another PUBLIC photo posted from ‘the set’ of the ‘FILLUM’ with another view of the LOGO they are using for their FAKE ‘Blue River Hotshots’.
Alan Sinclair’s own ‘relationship’ ( if any ) to the ‘FILLUM’ is still not known.. but he WAS somehow able to wrangle a part for his own son in the ‘FILLUM’.
Ethan Sinclair is playing one of the FAKE ‘Blue River Hotshots’.
Left to right in the following PUBLIC photo…
Alan Sinclair, Josh Brolin, Ethan Sinclair, Alan Sinclair’s wife Colleen Dolly Sinclair
Ethan Sinclair is ‘in costume’ and has on WFF-issue olive drab pants and a ‘dark-blue’
T-Shirt with the ‘Blue River Hotshots’ logo on it…
https://twitter.com/ASINCLAIR13/status/752693890201690113
** THE REAL ‘SALMON RIVER HOTSHOTS
And here’s a PUBLIC ‘group photo’ of the REAL ‘Salmon River Hotshots’ posted in May of 2015…
https://www.instagram.com/p/2sF9C7qeWb/
Whoops…I didn’t mean to offend the Salmon River Hotshots, but I would have put some flames or black burnt trees in the logo. But…I was always a Go Big or Go Home kind of guy.
That really does look like a bunch of guys in that photo I do NOT want to piss off. The more I look at it, the better I really like the Salmon River Hotshots logo with the beautiful salmon jumping out of that gorgeous river.
WTKTT says,”The ‘movie people’ even used the same BLUE and YELLOW SKY-BACKGROUND colors for their FAKE ‘Blue River Hotshots’ logo as the REAL ‘Salmon River Hotshots’ logo.”
But the differences are even greater. The movie logo is much more simple and graphic, black fish on a light ground, three bold stripes. The Salmon River logo has way too much detail to read at 20 paces. In addition, their helmets are a bright blue. This will make it easier for the viewer to distinguish the two crews during the action scenes. I know you old hands can tell which
crew is which, even in those group pix where each guy is as big as a flake of dandruff, but to the rest of us, those logos are a muddy mess. Add in the beat up helmets smudged with soot and we’re lost. That’s why the good guys always wore white hats.
Now, they could have kept the name of BR, but they would have wanted to simplify and brighten their logo and helmets. Can you imagine the hew and cry that would result? Better to create a new unit and only piss off a few curmudgeons on a blog in a corner of the Internet ?
You probably hit on the reasons for the change. I think it is called “artistic license.”
Really, it’s called knowing the players without a scorecard!
Reply to Muzzy post on July 22, 2016 at 7:53 am
>> Muzzy said…
>>
>> WTKTT says,”The ‘movie people’ even used the same BLUE
>> and YELLOW SKY-BACKGROUND colors for their FAKE ‘Blue
>> River Hotshots’ logo as the REAL ‘Salmon River Hotshots’ logo.”
>>
>> But the differences are even greater. The movie logo is much
>> more simple and graphic, black fish on a light ground, three
>> bold stripes. The Salmon River logo has way too much
>> detail to read at 20 paces.
Not an EXACT match ( detail-wise ), fer sure… but forget even the COLOR choices
and the other ‘small details’ for a moment and you are still left with…
** The REAL “Salmon River Hotshots”
** LOGO is a Salmon jumping out of a River.
** The FAKE “Blue River Hotshots” ( created by the ‘movie people’ )
** LOGO is a Salmon jumping out of a River.
Common denominator: The LOGO is a Salmon jumping out of a River.
If push came to shove… I think the ‘movie people’ really WOULD owe the REAL “Salmon River Hotshots” enough to maybe buy a coupla new ATVs.
The REAL point ( as with many of the things being discovered about this TRIBUTE ‘fillum’ )… is one of ‘competence’ and ‘attention to detail’ ( or lack thereof.
It means the ‘movie people’, who were already choosing to change HISTORY and change the NAME of the “Blue Ridge Hotshots” to the “Blue River Hotshots” didn’t even lift a finger to CHECK and see if the FAKE logo ‘theme’ that they were designing was already ( technically ) “in use” by any other REAL Type 1 IHC Hotshot crew.
I really did think these movie ‘props’ people were BETTER than that.
Reply to Gary Olson post on July 20, 2016 at 3:17 pm
>> Gary Olson said…
>>
> The U.S. government does not have any intellectual property rights
>> except that that are specifically provided for by federal law.
>> For example, Smokey the Bear and his likeness, the U.S, Forest
>> Service shield, the NPS arrowhead or the BLM triangle are
>> all protected.
>>
>> Some things they let slide, but just try and use Smokey Bear’s
>> likeness etc. in your business or hobby and you will find out
>> just how serious the federal government takes those things… as
>> in felony charges.
You mean, like, as the top level BANNER on your non-US Forestry affiliated ‘Foundation’ page asking for ‘donations’?…
Something like THIS… ( Smokey The Bear reading mail… )
The Eric Marsh Foundation for Wildland Firefighters…
https://www.facebook.com/ericmarshfoundationforwildlandfirefighters/
Here is a direct link to that ‘Smokey the Bear reading his mail’ photo currently being used by that ‘Foundation’ for it’s own top-level BANNER image…
NOTE: It even SAYS ‘Smokey’ on his HATBAND…
https://scontent.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/12523206_961193240640526_3797220969372260465_n.jpg?oh=9d86d407d160c94704f411ce858c0e64&oe=57EE8DC1
According to Wikipedia… the image of ‘Smokey the Bear’ isn’t just ‘copyrighted’ by the Federal Government, it is actually protected from unauthorized use by it’s OWN frickin’ special LAW… the ‘Smokey Bear Act of 1952’…
————————————————————————
The fictional character Smokey Bear, created by the art critic Harold Rosenberg, is administered by three entities: the United States Forest Service, the National Association of State Foresters, and the Ad Council. Smokey Bear’s name and image are protected by U.S. federal law, the Smokey Bear Act of 1952 (16 U.S.C. 580 (p-2); 18 U.S.C. 711).
————————————————————————
You cannot PRETEND you are associated with the ‘US Forestry Service’… if you are NOT.
And here is just ONE small passage from the actual FEDERAL LAW named…
The Smokey Bear Act of 1952 (16 U.S.C. 580 (p-2); 18 U.S.C. 711).…
From…
http://www.fs.usda.gov/Internet/FSE_DOCUMENTS/fsmrs_100517.pdf
———————————————————————————
Smokey Bear Act
Act of May 23, 1952
(P.L 82-359, Ch. 327, 66 Stat. 92;18 U.S.C 711; 16 U.S.C. 580p-2)
Sec. 1.
Whoever, except as authorized under rules and regulations issued by the Secretary of Agriculture after consultation with the Association of State Foresters and the Advertising Council, knowingly and for profit manufactures, reproduces, or USES the character “ Smokey Bear”, originated by the Forest Service, United States Department of Agriculture, in cooperation with the Association of State Foresters and the Advertising Council for use in public information concerning the prevention of forest fires, or any facsimile thereof, or the name ” Smokey Bear” shall be FINED not more than $250 or IMPRISONED not more then six months or BOTH.
———————————————————————————
FINE… IMPRISONMENT…. or BOTH
Again… you CANNOT try to make people think you are associated with the US Forestry Service ( by using its protected ICONS and IMAGERY )… when you are NOT.
It’s ILLEGAL.
I am pretty sure that is what I told you. There are no intellectual property rights for the U.S. Government except those that are specifically provided for by law…but for those that are…they take VERY seriously and the enforcement is very real.
**
** THE FAKE “MATT’S SALOON”
Joy covered some of this i her post just below… but here is some more ‘detail’ and some ‘proof’ that this TRIBUTE film is probably going to give ‘Prescott’ a ‘clear miss’…
Another ‘Question’ about the ‘FILLUM’ got answered today.
Q: Will they be shooting any scenes in Prescott itself?
A: Apparently NOT. It’s now been ‘confirmed’ that they have just selected various parts of downtown Sante Fe, New Mexico and they are just going to ‘pretend’ that is ‘downtown Prescott’.
I know a lot of people were probably EXPECTING this TRIBUTE film crew to show in Prescott at SOME point… for SOMETHING… but it looks like they ( the movie people ) really are just going to give Prescott a ‘clear miss’ for this TRIBUTE film.
http://www.abqjournal.com/810774/evangelos-is-back-in-the-movies.html
From the article…
———————————————————————-
PHOTO: A ‘made up’ sign that says “Matt’s Saloon” installed over the exiting “Evangelo’s Cocktail Lounge” sign at the corner of Galisteo and San Francisco street in downtown Sante Fe, New Mexico
SANTA FE, N.M. — Evangelo’s Cocktail Lounge, the downtown Santa Fe institution at Galisteo and San Francisco, has become “Matts Saloon.”
The temporary makeover is for a movie… “Granite Mountain”.
It stars Josh Brolin, Jeff Bridges (who had a scene filmed in Evangelo’s for his Academy Award winning role in “Crazy Heart”) and Jennifer Connelly,
Santa Fe stands in for Prescott, Ariz., for the movie.
A replica old-timey advertisement mentioning Prescott has been painted on a wall across from “Matts Saloon.”
———————————————————————-
There actually IS a REAL ( famous ) “Matt’s Saloon” in downtown Prescott… and it actually IS right there on ‘Whiskey Row’ by the Prescott Courthouse square and across the street from the ‘Prescott Brewing Company’.
And they ( the movie people ) have apparently gotten permission to use the ACTUAL “Matt’s Saloon” sign from Prescott ( with a longhorn skeleton head mounted in the middle ) for their FAKE version of the place there in downtown Sante Fe. ( or maybe they did NOT get permission and are just using a duplicate of the sign, anyway? ).
The website for the REAL “Matt’s Saloon” on Whiskey Row in Prescott, AZ is here..
Matt’s Saloon (928) 771-8788 – 112 S Montezuma St., Prescott, Arizona
http://www.mattssaloon.com/home.php
“Matt’s Saloon” on Whiskey Row in Prescott was mentioned many times in the memorials and obituaries for some of the deceased Granite Mountain Hotshots.
Just one example ( mentioning deceased GM Hotshot Kevin Woyjeck )…
MEN’S JOURNAL
Article Title: The Last Battle of the Granite Mountain Hotshots
Author: Josh Eells
h t t p : //w w w .mensjournal.com/features/articles/norman-reedus-the-wild-one-w209199
—————————————————————————
Aside from the occasional twinge of loneliness, Kevin Woyjeck was having a blast working as a Granite Mountain Hotshot. On his nights off, he’d go two-stepping at a honky-tonk called Matt’s Saloon, on Whiskey Row in downtown Prescott.
—————————————————————————
And ( as Joy was pointing out below ) there HAVE also been several ‘casting calls’ posted on the New Mexico Film Office’s PUBLIC ‘Bulletin Board’ for ‘extras’ who can TWO-STEP to show up on the set for work TODAY and TOMORROW ( and Friday ) there in Sante Fe…
—————————————————————————
11:12 am July 18, 2016
Granite Mountain needs couples who know how to two-step to work on Granite Mountain on Wednesday and Thursday evening in Santa Fe. Send photos, height, weight, and phone number to castingabq (at) gmail.com with the subject “TWO-STEP.”
9:58 am July 18, 2016
EG Casting is looking for young Caucasian cowboy types (especially women) between 18-35 to work on a scene on Granite Mountain this Wednesday and Thursday (July 20 – 21) in the Santa Fe Area. It is a paid gig, and will likely go late into the night. If you own any western style clothing and you fit into this age range, feel free to submit. ONLY submit if you have NOT worked on this particular film yet. Send photo, height, weight, and phone number to castingabq (at) gmail.com with the subject “Bar.”
12:50 pm July 20, 2016
Granite Mountain, a feature film with Josh Brolin, Jeff Bridges and Miles Teller is looking for pretty girls to work in a scene tomorrow, Thursday July 21. Great bar dancing scene, good camera time. Email a photo with height, weight and phone number to castingabq (at) gmail.com. Put Pretty Girl in the subject line.
8:05 pm July 20, 2016
Granite Mountain starring Josh Brolin and Jeff Bridges is looking for men 18 to 36 to work in a bar scene with a bunch of pretty girls on Friday,July 22, an evening/night call. These are paid positions. Email a photo with height, weight and phone number to castingabq (at) gmail.com. Put MEN in the subject line.
—————————————————————————
Followup…
Again… just a little ‘more detail’ backing up what Joy already posted below.
A little ‘tea shop’ that is across the street from this ‘Evangelo’s Cocktail Lounge’ in downtown Sante Fe ( which the movie people have turned into the FAKE “Matt’s Saloon” from downtown Prescott ) confirmed that the movie was ‘shooting’ there today.
The movie crew apparently took over the entire street and this little ‘tea shop’ put a sign out front offering ‘Free Tea’ to the “Granite Mountain” movie people.
https://twitter.com/ArtfulTea/status/755851201162252288
PUBLIC Twitter Photo caption says…
———————————————
ArtfulTea – July 19, 2016 – 2:00 PM
Filming #GraniteMountain on our street.
Cast & crew invited in for iced tea.
You, too, Jeff Bridges!
———————————————
Sign ( in the photo ) says…
———————————————-
WELCOME “GRANITE MOUNTAIN” FILM CREW!
Complimentary Ice Cold Tea Inside!
You too, Jeff!
———————————————-
Wow… you consider yourself an ‘investigator,’ yet speculate in such a biased manner of capitalizating certain words and oozing with passive aggressiveness– you sir are certainly far from a truth seeker. I am blown away by your sick obsession of such a tragedy that I can only think you have the exact chemical embalance as a serial killer. Do you have friends? Family? Children? Anything? Or do you spend every waking moment thinking about the death of others who did have a life filled with caring people and actual things to do? If you are truly someone who wants to ‘KNOW THE TRUTH’ then confront the people involved in person. Don’t hide behind your computer stalking innocent individuals you have never met, obsessing about their everyday lives, speculating about how they spend every second of their day, when you don’t have the Goddamn balls to face them in reality.
John McCabe says
JULY 20, 2016 AT 11:53 PM: If you are truly someone who wants to ‘KNOW THE TRUTH’ then confront the people involved in person.
Good to see John here. Glad you popped on…Vow to keep 15-year-old John McCabe’s murder a secret lasted 42 years…your name made me think of that poor soul who the loved ones and investigators and just every day taxpaying civilians like us folks here who had to wait FORTY TWO years to have the answers come out about little old John…so there are way too many that ARE thankful for the efforts to bring out as much information to the world not ourselves or a select click of folks but THE WORLD so the world can get the information as it arrives and properly assess the fires well knowing that we all come from diverse lifestyles and backgrounds and everyone will perceive it different. Remember John, this is a pattern and not only 19 men died…the many losses on other fallen as well here locally due to the slurry drops and the NH3 and its trade secrets…that is reality…and I have seen a very horrific terrifying serial killer upfront (even had the prosecutor alert me way ahead of time of their release from prison) and the deception of a serial killers ways and I do not feel WWTKTT has been deceptive and its your opinion but it is not factual to make an assessment like such without details or sources or resources and for the most part if WWTKTT did not do some areas the way that person does we would not have reached some areas in clarity. NOW for confronting the people in person…I have tried that…even been in a court setting tied to the fire aftermath when its never been a place I ever been or think anyone should be in this modern world and I really left alot of documents out of that room so I would not throw people under the bus…http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:mh_FilGHEI8J:www.examiner.com/article/cronyism-nepotism-and-favoritism-a-small-town-courthouse+&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us…we live in a town and county where I was made aware is set up very tight knit and yet I have alot of health concerns and even that I am dealing with liars….you don’t want to lie to me…I will research and call it out…purge style or as I get it…but no way are you John going to tell me who eye-witnessed that fire-ME… both fires and think I am going to allow this just keep happening to more lives. I am deeply sorry we have human lives lost and their loved ones who can get sensitive or jump on us for keep looking but no way is it going to be allowed to just be GOD HAD THE PLAN FOR THEM when too many times there are just too many folks coming to me thanking us for the efforts here on IM…you cannot imagine how many peak here with their hand over their eyes but still read…alot in my opinion should not come here but their choice…I actually have tried to pull away at times myself…I am not obsessed or addicted to the site yet I do ramble…and I do not know where I would be if I did not have a free area to share how these fires have affected me that I have sold off alot of assets to make sure the loved ones were taken care of or the homeowners…the people that God led to me in all this…those people…they have to MOVE FORWARD to survive but they are sooooooooooooo thankful for IM page and for a place where the truth is STILL being seeked…NOW I have the balls to face any area in my life…I lead it with pure heart…I have always seen people twist and screw along the way when I touch an area that one thinks should not be touched.
I am sure if you came here telling us your married life and kids and your LinkedIN…wwtktt may return you the favor but when you come as JOHN MCCABE where there are at least 100 of them in the world ranging in age 35-106 scattered all over…you look my name up sir you find just a few; some REAL like the lady in Florida and Wisconsin and some that uses my id as I check my annual report…so really glad you stopped by and hope you are not one of those POP-INS and are here to remain…enough rambles but I do not support this man’s comment comparing WWTKTT to a serial killer…very distasteful and maybe that was your dig…maybe you feel WWTKTT has been distasteful but if so NAME THE AREAS direct versus just popping in and recently reading the page because that screws alot of people up…POP INS…stay awhile…or do not waste your energy and stay off…but pop-ins do not add up to much in life…except Santa Claus or the tooth fairy…
Joy found out that there was a John McCabe murdered at the age of 15 and then it took 42 years to solve the murder. That indeed is sad since closure was withheld from his family and friends, perhaps some died never knowing who killed that young person. You see,
I know the feeling and sometimes watch America’s most wanted. John Walsh lost his 6 year old son and has never gotten a clue as to the rotton felon who took that child’s life.
Crimes against people come in many forms. My own son had his arm ripped loose when he was caught up in a winch. You see as a miner I operated those types winches on what is called a slusher bucket. They have a valve and if perchance you get your glove caught up in the winch the second you remove the other hand from the valve control the winch immediately stops. However, those valves at times get defective and need to be replaced. In the case of my son the valve would stick and the winch would continue to run. His screaming as he was being torn apart in the winch brought his supervisor. You can imagine, the supervisor knew Ted was a beginning underwater welder–on his first job. The supervisor knew about the valve, he said he should have replaced it–but neglected to do so. The supervisor would have never hurt my son on purpose, yet he neglected to take care of something that was a real danger–especially to a new person learning on the job. His neglect caused a million dollar settlement, yet the incident eventually became a reason for my son’s death. No amount of money could replace his life, yet because some superintendent did not take safety precautions, he is no longer here. Like John Walsh, there is hardly a day goes by that I don’t think about him, something I am certain the folks that lost loved ones understand.
WTKTT is a hero in discovering details and uncovering redactions to bring out the facts of what caused the deaths of the 19 GMHS crew. He is just one on this site that have worked and watched the true story and reasons the men died unfold. He is not the only one involved–most are retired or ongoing wild land fire fighters who are not happy that the tragedy has been hidden behind a smoke screen to save reputations. Dr. Ted Putnam says that many people just want to keep the blinders on–they rather accept what has been fed them and go on. He is one of the ones who does not accept the story as it has been told. He says it is tragic that people are trying to save face at the expense of future wild land lives. He has 15 years of smoke jumping experience, has investigated wild land fire deaths, such as the 14 that died at Storm King, and as a smoke jumper has actually saved young green wild land fire fighters of the ilk of Donut–when they were about to take action that was certain to cause their deaths. But he is only one among the many well experience wild land fire fighters that are unsettled to the story fed the public–these men have evidence contrary to the story being told by officials.
If you have evidence to clear certain people, John McCabe, please let us have it. Right now we know that Marsh and Steed went against all safety rules called the ten and eighteen. Even the simple version initialed LCES were disregarded. Lookout, communication, escape route, and safety zone as I recollect and if you are a wild land fire fighter you should know how to apply these and why. Your supervisor should not only know these rules but strictly adhere to them. The lives of his men are dependent upon the common sense rules of what are called the ten and eighteen.
When Marsh and Steed totally neglected to follow the rules and risked their mens lives by breaking all of them then we see what I would call a crime. Needlessly and neglectfully killing 17 can not make you a hero. Yet evidence shows that this is exactly what they did. Steed though it is understood did argue with Marsh–he knew the danger, yet for reasons still not revealed we yet can not publicly explain. Donut has withheld information for the longest of time–some he has put out in his book, although he says there is more to be revealed. He, as a green horn wild land fire fighter said the safety rules that keep wild land fighters alive are “Hillbilly”. He figured it was enough to rely on his estimation of things, or the “Greek Gods” above him. They let him down and if it were not for Blue Ridge Brian Frisby showing up on an ATV by accident, our humble friend Donut would be dead with the other GMHS. I think a hangover and sickness allowed him to replace the usual Lookout, another stroke of luck on his part. I never understood why he withheld vital information from the start–perhaps when he lawyered up, the advice was to keep mum–plenty others that had info were told to keep mum as well.
If you condemn, WTKTT–you better add at least a hundred more people that want to get the facts out. I stood there with many of them where the men went down after the fire. I stood there only a short hour or so right at the spot they went down while I watched the raging wild fire take off. Joy wanted to take that route they took–it was deceptive. Those 17 men were killed by their bosses careless actions–sad but true. We keep being fed that this was totally Marsh’s decision to risk their lives for empty structures. I believe there were others insisting he bring his men down despite the risk and breaking of all common sense. Cowboy Rick McKensie, family here for 150 years had told them early that morning to not get caught down there in that manzanita with that fire taking off. But cowboys have lived this country–they know what can be done, and what can not.
Do the granite mountain families risk losing any of their benefits as a result of uncovering the truth of why the men died?
Reply to Diane lomas post on
July, 28 2016, at 12:30 PM
>> Diane lomas asked…
>>
>> Do the granite mountain families
>> risk losing any of their benefits as a
>> result of uncovering the truth of
>> why the men died?
You would think not… but the way things REALLY work ( in Arizona, anyway )… the answer is YES.
There have been a number of credible reports ( some backed up with documentation obtained by InvestigativeMEDIA via valid FOIA requests ) that several of the “family members” have been treated VERY badly… to the point of being denied benefits and/or access to the millions of dollars donated by the public that was supposed to go to ALL ‘family members’.
The ‘Arizona 100 Club’ became the ‘gatekeeper’ for these millions and millions of dollars in donations and THEY have apparently been the ones ‘controlling’ the disbursements only as THEY see fit.
Stay on THEIR ‘good side’… and you possibly receive some of the publicly donated money . Piss THEM off… and you get NOTHING.
There are also credible reports that family members like Marcia .McKee ( deceased hotshot Grant McKee’s mother ) have never even received one red cent of the automatic LODD ( Line Of Duty Death ) benefit guaranteed by LAW.
Marcia McKee was the first to file a ‘wrongful death’ lawsuit on behalf of her son, Grant McKee.
Many other family members eventually did the same thing… but Marcia McKee was the first.
Marcia McKee did not ‘settle’ her lawsuit like other family members did.
Her original ‘wrongful death’ lawsuit is supposedly still ‘on appeal’ along with GWO others… even as of this writing.
Typo in the message above.
‘GWO’ was meant to be ‘TWO’.
Reply to John McCabe post on July 20, 2016 at 11:53 pm
>> John McCabe said…
>>
>> Wow… you consider yourself an ‘investigator,’ yet speculate
>> in such a biased manner of capitalizating certain words and
>> oozing with passive aggressiveness– you sir are certainly far
>> from a truth seeker. I am blown away by your sick obsession
>> of such a tragedy that I can only think you have the exact
>> chemical embalance as a serial killer. Do you have friends?
>> Family? Children? Anything? Or do you spend every waking
>> moment thinking about the death of others who did have a
>> life filled with caring people and actual things to do? If you
>> are truly someone who wants to ‘KNOW THE TRUTH’ then
>> confront the people involved in person. Don’t hide behind
>> your computer stalking innocent individuals you have never
>> met, obsessing about their everyday lives, speculating about
>> how they spend every second of their day, when you don’t
>> have the Goddamn balls to face them in reality.
Mr. McCabe… THANK YOU for taking the time to participate in this ongoing PUBLIC discussion of a Historic National Tragedy.
Do you, yourself, have any thoughts/opinions on what the real “Lessons to Learn” from this tragedy might be… in order to try and ( as much as humanly possible ) PREVENT such a terrible thing from ever happening AGAIN?
Well looks like the hikers may be in the movie…two stepping 🙂
Not as the hikers…
Sonny loves dancing…and he has his acting card…he was in Tank Girl …he came out of the whorehouse in that movie..
Soft giggles.
Granite Mountain, a feature film with Josh Brolin, Jeff Bridges and Miles Teller is looking for pretty girls to work in a scene tomorrow, Thursday July 21. Great bar dancing scene, good camera time.
Granite Mountain starring Josh Brolin and Jeff Bridges is looking for men 18 to 36 to work in a bar scene with a bunch of pretty girls on Friday,July 22, an evening/night call. These are paid positions.
right around here:
https://www.google.com/maps/uv?hl=en&pb=!1s0x87185040d353314d:0xa78763cd646fcd2d!2m5!2m2!1i80!2i80!3m1!2i100!3m1!7e115!4s//geo2.ggpht.com/cbk?panoid%3DWu1uQdmjpuGJPnQNoy8_cw%26output%3Dthumbnail%26cb_client%3Dsearch.LOCAL_UNIVERSAL.gps%26thumb%3D2%26w%3D130%26h%3D87%26yaw%3D133.10599%26pitch%3D0!5s+-+Google+Search&imagekey=!1e2!2sWu1uQdmjpuGJPnQNoy8_cw
OHI 12:50 pm July 20, 2016
Granite Mountain, a feature film with Josh Brolin, Jeff Bridges and Miles Teller is looking for pretty girls to work in a scene tomorrow, Thursday July 21. Great bar dancing scene, good camera time. Email a photo with height, weight and phone number to [email protected]. Put Pretty Girl in the subject line.
Reply
http://www.oneheadlightink.com/nm-film/casting-calls/comment-page-41/#comment-6457
thank you fans of Taylor
“stepping in the diary room for a peak”
what’s the bar like:
https://www.google.com/maps/uv?hl=en&pb=!1s0x87185040d353314d:0xa78763cd646fcd2d!2m5!2m2!1i80!2i80!3m1!2i100!3m1!7e115!4s//geo2.ggpht.com/cbk?panoid%3DWu1uQdmjpuGJPnQNoy8_cw%26output%3Dthumbnail%26cb_client%3Dsearch.LOCAL_UNIVERSAL.gps%26thumb%3D2%26w%3D130%26h%3D87%26yaw%3D133.10599%26pitch%3D0!5s+-+Google+Search&imagekey=!1e2!2sWu1uQdmjpuGJPnQNoy8_cw
came up the tea spot again—
let me peak again:
just use above link and scroll and 360 to see inside the bar-
The Matador Bar
OHI 11:12 am July 18, 2016
Granite Mountain needs couples who know how to two-step to work on Granite Mountain on Wednesday and Thursday evening in Santa Fe. Send photos, height, weight, and phone number to [email protected] with the subject “TWO-STEP.”
http://santafe.gaycities.com/bars/1426-the-matador
Looks like they’re looking for new extras:
Granite Mountain feature film is now casting Caucasian men and women to work several days next week in the new movie. Producers are also looking fo rolder men and women who have not worked on the movie yet. Filming will take place next week in Santa Fe, New Mexico.
Casting for Granite Mountain film with Josh Brolin and Jeff Bridges. Need Caucasian men and women (18-30) to work several days next week on Granite Mountain. Also casting people older people, submit if you have NOT worked on GM. Some of the dates will be in and around the SF area. Send a photo, height, weight, and phone number to [email protected] with the subject Friends and Family.
Cheerleader! Cheerleader!! Cheerleader!!!
I am Woodsman NUMBER ONE cheerleader
Here is another link to a fairly comprehensive and well written research paper on the subject of Human Factors influencing the fatalities on the YH Fire, by Peter Vidmar of Trinity University (San Antonio,Texas).
There is a Peter Vidmar that is a Senior Firefighter, Canon City Helitack Crew out of Pueblo, CO.
The author speaks with a fairly keen knowledge and authority on the subject.
The paper is titled: “Framing Tragedy: Rhetorical Strategies and Effects in the Wake of the Yarnell Hill Fire Fatalities.”
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&ved=0ahUKEwjMvJ3dpYPOAhUCLmMKHbdGAtUQFggcMAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fpetervidmar.weebly.com%2Fuploads%2F2%2F6%2F6%2F9%2F26691936%2Fhcommisgranitemountain.docx&usg=AFQjCNHhgpLS7H47PF4XkVVZdwuSsVnbEA&sig2=YDR5X_JJw0nZ2ONlBlVkDg&bvm=bv.127521224,d.cGc&cad=rja
After discussing and then suggesting that “They [GMHS] and many other crews felt pressured not only to produce line, but also place themselves in harms’ way to defend empty structures” and that is why “they likely left the safety of the black so that they may reengage with the fire in the structures around the ranch and in the town of Yarnell.”
He concludes his paper with this regarding Human Factors: “Echoing the feeling of Ted Putnam following the South Canyon Fire, there is not enough organizational focus on the many and varied human factors. It can and should be the place of the academe to offer examples of how they might be considered in novel and useful ways.”
Sometimes I wonder if the country is producing too many educated idiots. It is fine to have a bat hide to hang on your wall–Joy found mine blown into the desert–proof I spent my time in the confines of modern education. But it is quite often the simplest people that have the wisdom sometimes lacking in the educated idiot variety. When Rick McKensie told the GMHS crew on the morning of their demise not to get caught down in that manzanita if that fire is anywhere near, he was using what my Dad used to say was common horse sense. You know that if you get lost and happen to be horse back, give the horse rein–that horse will take you home.
Experience that Rick had as a cowboy and bow hunter working in and around that manzanita made him fully aware of the danger of getting caught up in it. I too have had my share of working in dense manzanita–forget attempting to run through it–it just can’t be done. In fact Joy and I worked our way through that very basin and experienced the density. I call it bear wallow material where about the only thing that can do a good job getting through it is a bear rolling himself through. There were plenty areas so thick you could see where that had happened–but humans do not have the tough hide of a bear and chain sawing through it is a slow process. One thing is certain once in it you certainly want to work your way out–get to that two track was the best option and once there stay on it and get to the other side of the Weavers where there is a deficit of mazanita and you can work yourself down the West side in an upright stance.
The people we hiked all declined to attempt the manzanita patches in the area that had not burned–it was enough for them to see the mess–why go through a briar patch?
If those GMHS were trained by a professional wild land fire fighing school they should get their money back.
Then we consider that they had at first refused and Marsh suggested Blue Ridge–yet eventually gave in to pressure. They were wanted to work near Glen Isla to do their second bidding–structure protection. The fellows above their grade knew they were on a mountain and would be coming downhill with a fire raging that could turn at any time–their own meteorological reports has warned them of 45mph gusts likely to reverse the fire at any time. I saw the storms from top of the Weavers and the two track–I did not need the report to know what was apt to happen. Experience of living the deserts and hills since childhood in tents and outdoors gave me that understanding. Now I wonder if
the idea that mixing of wild land fire fighting and structure protection is a good idea. I don’t see Pulaski’s and garden hoses much help in a wild land fire the magnitude of what we saw that day of June 30, 2013. But as Willis has said, they could not just set there in the black, they wanted to protect structures–thats what they do–which he meant is what they did before being ordered down there.
>> On July 20, 2016 at 11:11 am, Muzzy said…
>>
>> BTW, concerning the question of whether the Donut rescue by BR
>> was accidental or planned, I believe it was planned in that BR
>> knew they would probably have to rescue the crew buggies and
>> other equipment, as had happened on other fires. Frisby was
>> probably more aware of both Donut’s position and what the fire
>> was doing than anyone on the fire, so he “swung by” to see if
>> he could help. That sounds like a PLAN by a guy who didn’t want
>> the hero treatment, just a guy who was doing his job…
>> On July 20, 2016 at 1:33 pm, Robert the Second ( RTS ) replied…
>>
>> Muzzy…. Thanks for posting this. I have felt this way all along about
>> the BRHS scooping McDonough.
>>
>> I always thought Frisby was a lot more aware and cognizant of the
>> deteriorating fire weather and increasing fire behavior. The GMHS’ and
> their cavalier attitude toward McDonough and his way-too-close trigger
>> point, with no heads up by his own Crew, gave that away.
Muzzy ( and RTS ).
You are both completely WRONG about whether Frisby’s ‘rescue’ of Brendan McDonough had anything to do with Brian Frisby DECIDING to ‘go check on him’ even without being told/asked to do so.
It didn’t ( as per Brian Frisby himself ).
Just a little over an HOUR after Frisby ‘accidentally’ stumbled across Brendan out there near the old-grader as he was on his way out to meet Marsh for that second face-to-face Marsh had requested at 3:26 PM… Brian Frisby himself was RECORDED by Prescott National Forest employee Aaron Hulburd telling THEM ( Hulburn, Jason Clawson and KC ‘Bucky’ Yowell ) that he had (quote) “just happened to stumble upon the lookout”.
We don’t even need any ‘Unit Logs’ or ‘Interviews’ to confirm this.
The RECORDING has Brian Frisby himself SPEAKING and TELLING Hulburd, Clawson and Yowell that he only accidentally ‘stumbled upon the lookout’ as he was driving out to meet Marsh.
Brendan McDonough himself testified that HE ( McDonough ) believed Frisby had been specifically ‘coming to get him’ even before McDonough could even make a request that he do so… and McDonough apparently STILL believes this ‘fantasy’… since he said that is what happened in his own ‘for profit’ BOOK…
…but McDonough is ( and always has been ) MISTAKEN.
That is NOT what happened… and even just a little over an HOUR after ‘the rescue’ we have the actual RECORDING of Brian Frisby himself saying that is NOT what happened.
Just for REFERENCE… here is a ’roundup’ of how this ‘moment’ has been portrayed in all the for-profit BOOKS that have been published so far, followed by ‘the Horse’s Mouth’… and Brian Frisby’s OWN account.
From the ‘books’ ( in the order they have been published )…
Kyle Dickman’s book “On the Burning Edge”…
———————————————————
Just before the weather update about the wind shift, Marsh had called Frisby requesting another face-to-face meeting. Things were changing quickly. He wanted to coordinate Blue Ridge’s and Granite Mountain’s efforts. Frisby agreed and took off in the Razor to meet with Marsh on the ridge for another talk.
He never got there.
By the time he reached the little clearing, Donut was standing by the grader with his radio in his hand, looking stunned. He’d just keyed the mic to call Blue Ridge– the only way for Donut to be extracted from hell– when he saw that Frisby was already there. Frisby whipped the Razor into a U-turn. Donut handed him the radio and said, “Talk to Steed and Marsh.” Donut wanted them to hear from Frisby that he was safe. “I’ve got Donut and he’s leaving his lookout,” Frisby said. “The fire activity is picking up and we’re moving our rigs. Do you want us to move yours?” “Affirm,” said Marsh. He watched as Frisby floored the ATV and they raced away ahead of the flames.
———————————————————
NOTE: This is actually fairly accurate, including the TIME ( circa 3:26 PM ) when Marsh first requested that second ‘face-to-face’ with Frisby… and NO mention of ANY thoughts on either Marsh’s or Frisby’s part of ‘checking on Brendan’ in any way, shape or form. The ‘rescue’ was ‘accidental’.
Fernanda Santo’s book “The Fire Line”…
———————————————————
McDonough had to get out of there. He was about to call Frisby, the Blue Ridge Hotshots’ superintendent, and ask him for a ride out of the wild, when Frisby zipped by in his ATV and stopped. McDonough hopped aboard. Steed radioed McDonough and said, “I’ve got eyes on you and the fire, and it’s making a good push.” Frisby stomped on the gas, zoomed past the old grader, and made a beeline to the spot where Granite Mountain had parked its buggies on a patch of yellowed grass.
———————————————————
NOTE: Fernanda Santos makes absolutely NO mention of the fact that the only reason Frisby was ‘zipping by’ Brendan’s location in his ATV, at that time, was because he was heading up for a that second face-to-face meeting that Marsh had requested circa 3:26 PM, just BEFORE the crucial weather report. According to Santos… there was absolutely NO reason at all being given to the reader WHY Frisby was anywhere near Brendan at that time. As if Frisby was just out ‘joy riding’ in his ATV and ‘zipping by’ Brendan’s location when he ‘accidentally’ saw him.
Santos is also totally mistaken that the ‘rescue’ took place at the ‘old-grader’, or even just WEST of there.
She is WRONG. It did NOT.
According to Brendan’s own (public) ADOSH testimony… Brendan emerged from the brush at the same ‘T-intersection’ where he had been ‘dropped off’ earlier that afternoon… which was some distance EAST of the old-grader itself.
If Brendan HAD ’emerged’ WEST of that ‘T-intersection’ and near the old-grader, Brian Frisby would NOT have ‘stumbled across him’ as he drove by out there on that main two-track.
BTW: Of all the for-profit BOOKS published ( so far, anyway ), the Santos ‘tome’ is the one that, by far, contains the MOST factual inaccuracies.
Now here is Brendan’s own version, as he tell it in his own for-profit BOOK.
Even in his own recently published book he seems to still be under the delusion that Brian Frisby had arrived at his location specifically because he was ‘concerned’ about him.
That was NOT the case.
To this day… Brendan seems incapable of believing that it was a complete and total ‘accident’ that Frisby happened to ‘stumble upon him’ when he did.
Brendan McDonough’s book “My Lost Brothers”…
———————————————————
I was fighting back thoughts of burning up, of feeling the fire rush out at me from the brush around me. Not having eyes on the fire was the worst part. You feel like you’re going to turn your head and the fire is going to come rushing at you through the trees with no warning. A wave that will burn you alive in three seconds.
I burst out of the brush at the clearing and brought the radio up to my mouth. I was going to call Brian, the Blue Ridge super. The dozer was there and I was about to hit the button for a pickup when I saw something rolling into the far edge of the clearing on fat black wheels.
I couldn’t believe what I was seeing. Was it a mirage? I ran toward it, and saw it was the Blue Ridge UTV. I felt a huge weight lift off me.
Brian Frisby had seen the flames moving toward me and had anticipated my need for a ride out— Eric had asked for a face-to-face meeting, so Brian swung by my position on the way.
I hopped on and handed Brian the radio so he could talk directly to Jesse and Eric.
This guy just saved my life, I thought.
———————————————————
NOTE: In addition to being mistaken about Frisby ‘anticipating’ Brendan’s need for a ‘ride out’… Brendan’s mention of the ‘dozer being there’ ( where he emerged ) doesn’t even match his own testimony to ADOSH that he did NOT emerge at the ‘old-grader’ at all… but EAST of there at the ‘T-Intersection’ where Frisby had dropped him off earlier in the day.
***** Now here is the “Horse’s Mouth”.
Brian Frisby’s OWN words, as he was speaking to Prescott National Forest employees Aaron Hulburd, Jason Clawson, and KC ‘Bucky’ Yowell… a little more than an hour after having ‘stumbled upon’ Brendan and ‘rescuing’ him.
NOTE: The following has actually been posted 3 or 4 times.
Here is just one link back to where it appeared in Chapter 19 of this ongoing discussion…
http://www.investigativemedia.com/please-begin-yarnell-hill-fire-chapter-xix-here/#comment-324945
From Aaron Hulburd’s VIDEO with filename M2U00271, at the moment when Frisby was ‘talking’ to him and Clawson and Yowell… and Hulburd was ‘recording’ that conversation…
Video M2U00271 in the Public Evidence Record…
———————————————————-
+0:31 ( 1729:31 / 5:29:31 PM )
( Brian Frisby ): …and Eric decided that the trail that kinda follows that ridge… in the green… ( ? that that’s the route )… and that lookout was down below… and I went in to go tie in with Eric… and that’s when it picked up. I just happened to stumble upon the lookout… without the… ( ? rest of ’em )… and I grabbed him… and then we got the rigs out.
———————————————————-
The words coming out of Brian Frisby’s OWN mouth, on June 30, 2013…
“I just happened to stumble upon the lookout.”
It will be very interesting to see how the for-profit ‘FILLUM’ depicts ‘the rescue’.
As a PLAN ( which it wasn’t ).
As a total ‘accident’? ( which it was ).
As… ???… something else?
Maybe they will decide the more ‘exciting’ depiction would be to have actor Miles Teller ( McDonough ) being already almost surrounded by flames and actuallly contacting actor Rene Herrera ( Frisby or Farsby or whatever NAME they are giving him as a FAKE ‘Blue River Hotshot’ ) and we see Rene Herrera ONLY THEN ‘racing’ out to ‘save’ Miles Teller with the best 3D CGI and exciting MUSIC that Hollywood has to offer.
WTKTT,
See my reply below:
http://www.investigativemedia.com/please-begin-yarnell-hill-fire-chapter-xxii-here/#comment-342395
Reply to Muzzy post on July 20, 2016 at 5:35 pm
>> Muzzy said…
>>
>> I’m sure that’s how he presented it.
>> What was he supposed to say,
>> “Yeah, I knew Marsh would leave Donut out
>> to get crispycrittered so I swung around to pick
>> him up. You should have seen that puny
>> assed safety zone they picked out!”
I think the moment that Brian Frisby and Trueheart Brown dropped Brendan off at the ‘T-Intersection’ just east of the old-grader… right around 12:30 PM… they knew very well that there was NO VALID SAFETY ZONE there in that area… regardless of what Jesse Steed or Eric Marsh had told Brendan.
That’s probably where the offer of “If you need us… just call us and we’ll come get you” came from.
It wasn’t an idle ‘favor’ being offered.
They knew damn well that if this kid got into trouble… SOMEONE with a 4 wheeler was going to HAVE to come and get him…. and since Granite Mountain had managed to get theirs ‘crispycrittered’ on another fire and hadn’t even bothered to replace it… they knew it was “Tag… you’re it” as far as anyone even HAVING a UTV/ATV out there in that area that day.
But that still doesn’t mean that factored into Frisby’s thinking at 3:26 PM, when Marsh inexplicably asked Frisby to eat dust for 15 minutes and come ALL THE WAY back UP there… for some still-unknown reason….
…and then Frisby ( who had a lot going on himself at that point ) also inexplicably agreed to that ‘request’, at that late hour, and dropped what he was doing to go UP there.
There’s still never been a good explanation as to WHY Marsh wanted Frisby to schlep his ass all the way back UP to the ridge at that crucial point in the burn cycle.
It HAD to be because of something Eric Marsh wanted Frisby to SEE… and to SEE it in a way that Marsh thought only the view from the ridge would provide.
Otherwise… why not just DISCUSS whatever Marsh had in mind over the radio?
The entire ‘second face-to-face’ still doesn’t even really make much sense… and no one has been able to successfully interview Frisby ( and/or Brown ) to determine if there is MORE to be known about what the second ‘face-to-face’ was even SUPPOSED to be ABOUT ( versus just discussing something over the radio ).
>> Muzzy also said…
>>
>> At that point, he didn’t know they were all goners.
>> He was too much of a gentleman/team player to
>> admit that he was cleaning up after Marsh, as
>> others had done before.
Well… there’s the rub… eh?
We still have NO IDEA what Type 1 IHC Superintendent Brian Frisby might have ‘thought’ about Eric Marsh and/or the entire GM organization.
He MAY actually be someone who, himself, ended up ‘not too surprised’ that they got themselves killed.
The ‘essence’ of him ( and the other Blue Ridgers ) religiously dodging all attempts to interview them for all this time might be because they are still trying, with all their might, not to ADMIT that they, themselves, thought Granite Mountain was just “an accident looking for a place to happen”… and then they found the place.
Perhaps it’s just a simple as a full commitment to the “If you don’t have anything good to say… don’t say anything at all” approach.
As for “that might just be the way Frisby presented it” ( rescuing Brendan )… I don’t think there’s any reason to doubt that it really was all just as ‘matter of fact’ as Frisby described it.
From listening to all the radio traffic and other off-the-cuff recordings that captured Frisby speaking… I don’t think he was known for being any kind of ‘Chatty Kathy’ either ON or OFF the radio.
We don’t HEAR the ‘question’ that either Jason Clawson, Aaron Hulburd or KC ‘Bucky’ Yowell actually ASKED him in that M2U00271 video.
All we hear is Frisby’s ‘matter of fact’ short ‘report’…
1. I was on my way out to tie in with Eric ( as he requested ).
2. I happened to STUMBLE upon the lookout.
3. I got HIM ( and only him ) out of there.
4. We then got all the buggies out of there.
Bada-bing. Bada-boom.
Dem’s just ‘da facts’.
And I think those WERE ‘da facts’.
In other words… I don’t think at that point where we hear Frisby speaking that he was ‘filled’ with ANY sorts of urges to even ‘downplay’ what he was thinking or feeling… or that the whole situation was an unfolding ( but not unexpected ) ‘fuck up’ on Granite Mountain’s part.
Someone asked him how it was that Brendan was not WITH the others… or something along those lines… and he simply TOLD them.
No editorializing needed.
McDonough posted in his book:
“I WAS FIGHTING BACK THOUGHTS OF BURNING UP, OF FEELING THE FIRE RUSH OUT AT ME. NOT HAVING EYES ON THE FIRE WAS THE WORST PART. YOU FEEL LIKE YOU’RE GOING TO TURN YOUR HEAD AND THE FIRE IS GOING TO COME RUSHING AT YOU THROUGH THE TREES WITH NO WARNING. A WAVE THAT WILL BURN YOU ALIVE IN THREE SECONDS.” (EMPHASIS ADDED).
“I WAS FIGHTING BACK THOUGHTS OF BURNING UP, OF FEELING THE FIRE RUSH OUT AT ME.”
This sounds to me like he had already experienced this before.
“NOT HAVING EYES ON THE FIRE WAS THE WORST PART.”
No lookout or anyone watching the fire to notify him of danger? Sounds like he had done this before also, AND gotten away with it. LCES? What’s that?
“YOU FEEL LIKE YOU’RE GOING TO TURN YOUR HEAD AND THE FIRE IS GOING TO COME RUSHING AT YOU THROUGH THE TREES WITH NO WARNING. A WAVE THAT WILL BURN YOU ALIVE IN THREE SECONDS.”
Again, this sounds to me like he had already experienced this before, maybe on the ‘Nevada’ [Holloway] Fire or the Doce Fire or ??.
This entire paragraph suggests to me that he had actually experienced this before and he was merely recounting it for his book, for the ‘drama’ of it all.
Remember, at least Fire Order Number 10 (Fight fire aggressively having provided for safety first), was HILLBILLY, and he/they were much smarter than that.
RTS,
Go to the book at:
https://books.google.com/books?id=PYqDCgAAQBAJ
Use the search box to find “Jesse set the anchor” to find a passage about another close call during the Doce Fire.
I’d be curious to hear your assessment of the situation he describes. Is he tarting it up, or were they close to death? It sounds like a stupid, unsafe action on their parts to me, though not quite as stupid as leaving good black to go into a box canyon during an outflow event on a fire front, but still. What do you think?
Reply to Robert the Second (RTS) post on July 20, 2016 at 8:13 pm
>> RTS said…
>>
>> “I WAS FIGHTING BACK THOUGHTS OF BURNING UP, OF FEELING
>> THE FIRE RUSH OUT AT ME.”
>>
>> This sounds to me like he had already experienced this before.
Yep. No telling how MANY times… but definitely at least just 12 DAYS before Yarnell, on the Doce Fire.
The ‘descriptions’ about the fire ‘engulfing him’ he uses as he describes his thoughts coming off his lookout mound match what is in the actual PROLOGUE of McDonough’s book.
His book STARTS OUT ( the PROLOGUE itself ) with him re-counting the near-death experience that he and Christopher MacKenzie had just 12 days before Yarnell, on the Doce fire.
They had just ‘arrived’ there… and Jesse Steed pointed at some thick-brush area and told McDonough and MacKenzie to ‘burn it out’.
They picked a spot and literally ‘waded INTO’ Brush that was head-high and so thick it was knocking their helmets off as they worked their way through it.
And then they just fired up their drip-torches and started ‘lighting things up’.
Next thing they know… McDonough and MacKenzie find themselves caught in the middle of what appears to have been an ‘area ignition’ being caused by their OWN drip-torches and the fires they were lighting in the head-high brush.
They barely made it out alive.
They ended up having to THROW their drip-torches AWAY from themselves as far as they could to stop the ‘area ignitions’ right around themselves, and then crawl on their hands and knees UNDER the thick brush to make it back out to the ashphalt road where they had come from.
Even in his PROLOGUE… Brendan admits they “Chose the wrong place to go in” and they had ‘underestimated’ how DRY and EXPLOSIVE that fuel really was.
Brendan CLOSES this ‘dramatic PROLOGUE’ to his own book by saying that after crawling back to the road in the nick of time with MacKenzie… he wanted to QUIT being a Hotshot right then and there.
But he didn’t. He continued working the Doce Fire, and went to Yarnell with everyone else just 12 days later.
Followup…
I know that the person who was REALLY writing ‘Brendan’s book’ ( author Stephan Talty – ‘Captain Phillips’ ) was just ‘doing his job’ as a writer and was the one who must have convinced Brendan that before the book got ‘into’ all the drug-use and heroin addiction and stuff that they needed to “hook the readers” and “pull them in” with something EXCITING…
…but I’m still not sure using that ‘near-death’ experience that McDonough and MacKenzie had on the ‘Doce’ fire was the best way to do that.
I think a lot of ‘readers’ might have been like me.
I started reading the ‘book’ with the most open mind possible… but by the time I reached the end of that PROLOGUE… I really only had one distinct impression.
“THESE are the kinds of guys who are supposed to be the ‘elite’ Navy Seals of Wildland Firefighting? People who ‘chose the wrong place’ to enter head-high explosively-dry fuel and don’t even seem to know what COULD ( and did happen ) the minute they started ‘lighting it all up’?”
“What a bunch of DUMBASSES”.
And if you believe this ‘story’ that Brendan told about happened to him and Christopher MacKenzie just 12 days before Yarnell… how they both almost ‘bought the farm’ in head-high explosive fuel because of bad decision making…
…then you have to pause for a moment and think again about poor Christopher MacKenzie himself.
McDonough “left the building” and was not WITH them as they all made that risky move… but circa 4:25 PM or so… there was Christopher MacKenzie finding himself ( once again ) ‘pushing through’ head-high super-dry explosive fuel, with no ‘eyes on the fire’… and watching the SMOKE just build and build and build over his head as they kept ‘bushwhacking’ towards some dubious destination that ‘lie ahead’ ( somewhere ).
I’ll bet every ALARM was ‘going off’ in his head and he was probably THINKING of what happened just 12 days earlier… and how he ALMOST died THAT time.
But the Just. Kept. Moving. Forward.
Never taking the time to ‘re-evaluate’ their situation and their ‘decision making’.
It remains TRULY ‘tragic’.
Whoops. TYPO up above.
Should have read like this…
—————————————————————-
But THEY Just. Kept. Moving. Forward.
Never taking the time to ‘re-evaluate’ their situation and their ‘decision making’.
It remains TRULY ‘tragic’.
—————————————————————-
As I have said before…several times…if anybody is an elite Navy SEAL type in wildland firefighting…it is smokejumpers. Hotshots…if there is any comparison to a military branch…are the Marines.
And you get what you pay for…YOU don’t put enough money into recruiting, training or retaining hotshots to have all squared away hotshots…you are lucky you get as many as you do.
And however you cut it…hotshots are the best of the best….even if the best of the best are not as good as you think they should be…or they really need to be.
Marine…INFANTRY!
The real question regarding this commentary is why didn’t someone from the rest of the crew (who knew that Brendan had left his look-out spot when the fire had chased him out) act as HIS look-out, and show some concern for HIS safety, when the fire had already run him off of his lookout point??
To me, this question looms large, because at THAT point in time, the look-out was the ONLY one in any sort of danger, and all of the accounts and reports including Brendan’s own accounts, indicate the he was seemingly left to fend for himself when his life was clearly in danger.
TTWARE,
This was discussed in some detail several chapters back and I have been unable to find it.
You are absolutely correct here.
The GMHS Overhead were pretty cavalier and slack in this regard, allegedly acting as his Lookout, since the GMHS had the best overall vantage and Lookout points of anyone on the entire YH Fire.
As you put it: “he was seemingly left to fend for himself when his life was clearly in danger.”
More to the point, he WAS left to fend for himself.
It was as if McDonough was down there entirely on his own, setting his own WAY-TOO-CLOSE trigger point, watching and waiting TOO LONG before leave once he hit his trigger point, and then contemplating where to go to DEPLOY his fire shelter rather than head up to the black above him.
Reply to The Truth Will Always Remain Elusive ( TTWARE )
post on July 21, 2016 at 9:24 am
>> TTWARE said…
>>
>> all of the accounts and reports including Brendan’s own accounts,
>> indicate the he was seemingly left to fend for himself when his
>> life was clearly in danger.
Throughout ALL of his ‘interviews’ following the tragedy… Brendan seemed to have been ‘coached’ to not make a ‘big deal’ out of this ‘evacuation’ from his lookout post.
And he was TRUE to that ( apparent? ) ‘coaching’ when being interviewed by the SAIT ( once ) and ADOSH ( TWICE ).
It was ‘no big whoop’ ( according to Brendan ).
Then… his FOR-PROFIT book comes out and now it’s all a “close encounter of the deadly kind” and he’s talking about how he thought he might be engulged by flames even when he was just walking down from the mound.
But regardless of McDonough’s own ongoing CREDIBILITY issues… YOU are RIGHT.
The ONLY ‘evidence’ that has arisen to date that shows there was any real concern on either Marsh’s or Steed’s part for Brendan McDonough’s welfare after he left them and was driven down to that ‘lookout mound’ at 12:25 PM by Blue Ridge Hotshots Brian Frisby and Trueheart Brown is that ‘conversation’ Brendan reports having with Jesse Steed, circa 3:33 PM, just after Byron Kimball’s crucial ‘weather report’ hit the radio.
McDonough said that immediately after that 3:30 PM weather report from Kimball about the approaching 40-50 mph wind gusts and expected fireline ‘reversaly’.. he and Steed ‘decided’ ( together ) that it was time for Brendan to leave that lookout mound.
But then that is it.
Steed’s only ‘advice’ to Brendan when Brendan confirmed he was leaving that mound was “Okay. Cool. Do what you need to do”.
Nothing like…
“Brendan… you better haul your ass UP HERE to this SAFE BLACK like RIGHT NOW… and I mean DOUBLE-TIME or better… you might be in deep shit soon.”
OR
“Brendan… you better press that radio button and CALL BLUE RIDGE to come and get you like RIGHT NOW… and make SURE they still have a functioning UTV within range to do that… or you could be in deep shit REAL soon.”
Nope. NOTHING like that from Brendan’s direct supervisor ( or from DIVSA Marsh ) and the men that were responsible for his safety.
AND… no evidence whatsoever that Marsh or Steed themselves ever lifter a finger ( or pushed a radio button ) to make SURE for THEMSELVES that this critical ‘going to get Brendan’ operation was even going to be possible at that critical moment in time.
Just… “Okay. Cool. Do what you need to do”.
Muzzy did a good job of bringing my thoughts on the Battlement Creek Fire forward which saved me some searching…so thanks for that. I don’t have much to add except to reaffirm that we knew exactly where the Mormon Lake crew was and they knew exactly where we were, the shift plan told us or we could have looked up and seen them working if we would have wanted or needed to see where they were at.
If Shawna Legarza would have been honest with the job she was entrusted with in the name of wildland firefighter safety, the six minutes for safety would have discussed the importance of NOT having an incompetent fire overhead coming up with a plan to have one hotshot crew start a burn out below another one…on purpose.
And yes…people have always made a big deal about Tony being head down burning with the others. Why not? He had already done what a crew boss was supposed to do, he had identified the impending threat and he had sent most of his crew to safety. It’s just that in his arrogance he wanted to finish burning out their line and thought those he kept with him and he could make it out at the last minute, but he was wrong.
The analogy that I use is if a track repair foreman thought he had to finish pounding in some spikes before the train got to their job site because management had sent the train on it’s way before their work was completed, but told the repair crew to be sure and get out the way BEFORE the train got to where they were working but also get the job done BEFORE they leave.
The crew boss looked up, saw the train coming, sent the majority of his crew to safety but kept a select team with him to pound in the last few spikes. And because the train was almost upon them, he picked up a sledgehammer to hammer spikes as well to hurry up and get the job done, but he badly misjudged how fast the train was going, or would be going.
Oh…and one more thing. The U.S. government does not have any intellectual property rights except that that are specifically provided for by federal law. For example, Smokey the Bear and his likeness, the U.S, Forest Service shield, the NPS arrowhead or the BLM triangle are all protected.
Another good example is the readily identifiable outline of a federal agent badge because that could be duplicated and used as a master key that opens almost every door. It is a federal felony to be in possession of a federal badge or the likeness of a federal badge if you are not a sworn federal agent. But almost everything else is in the public domain, books, writing, manuals, photographs…you name it, you own it. Or at least you are a c- owner along with approximately 350 million other U.S. citizens.
I’m pretty sure the name of the Blue Ridge hotshots and their crew symbol which used to be a firefighter repelling down a rock face (since they were certified as a hotshot repelling crew but I don’t know if they still do that or what their logo is now)…is not protected by federal law. Every crew just makes up their own logo. I always like the logo of the ZigZag hotshots off the Mt Hood National Forest. It was the same as the Zig Zag rolling papers bohemian hippie dude who looks like he is smoking a joint. Which the Zig Zag rolling paper company could have objected to on copyright laws but I guess they didn’t care under the circumstances. The Happy Jack logo that I came up with after I became crew boss WAS the U.S. Forest Service Shield but instead of a beautiful gold tree in the center, I had them draw up a burned up black snag which was hotshot humor and I always expected to get in trouble for that one but nobody ever called me on it. Some things they let slide, but just try and use Smokey Bear’s likeness etc. in your business or hobby and you will find out just how serious the federal government takes those things…as in felony charges.
Likewise, I don’t think you need a federal employees permission to use their name or their likeness to represent them or something they did at work since they, and what they do on the job belongs to the public and not to them since they are on the payroll and are civil servants.
So…I suspect that the reasons the movie people changed the names etc. has nothing to do with either the government or those employees refusing to cooperate with the project and their reasons are there own. That is why I can write a book about what happened on the Yarnell Hill Fire…it is all in the public domain as WTKTT likes to say, it’s not like we are talking about Exxon Mobile..
Insert “trademark” laws instead of “copyright laws” were appropriate. Also add things like songs, you don’t have to pay a royalty to sing the “Star Spangled Banner” like you are supposed to if you sing the “Happy Birthday” song, at least in a commercial setting, also web sites, cut and past from federal websites all you want except for those things specifically protected by federal law, everything on the FBI web site for example except for their badge.
speaking of “Happy Birthday”, Gary—many Leos here and between July 23 and August 22 if yours drops in that time frame— HAPPY BIRTHDAY 🙂
http://media.santabanta.com/e-cards/birthday/birthday_zodiac_leo.jpg
Why yes Joy,it does as a matter of fact…on July 31. Thank you so much, that is a beautiful e-card.
I would add that the Oak Grove Hot Shots Woody Wood Pecker was designed by the owner of the studio Lintz and it was listed under a LLC. copy rights.
But you are right most were not.
The use of the name and name of the crew could be under Royalty agreements that were not given with out compensation. A book is different.
Most were not? I bet NO others were trademarked. Who would bother to do that and pay hundreds of dollars in registration fees? For one thing, when I have gone through that process, you have to prove a commercial application by category (and teh more categories, it costs a lot more money) for what you want to trademark before your trademark can even be considered for registration. It is not an easy or cheap process.
A book is different than what? A movie? I can write about what Brian Frisby the U.S. Forest Service Blue Ridge hotshot did in his official capacity as a public servant on the public payroll in a book but they can’t in a movie?
I cut class the day they discussed intellectual property rights in my police science courses in college but we know you didn’t even go to college so how is it that you think you are qualified to give an opinion on what privacy rights a federal employee has from acts they did as public servants?
Joy and Sonny could probably sue the movie people, but I would like to wish Brian Frisby good luck in that endeavor because he is probably going to need it, but I will defer to somebody who knows what the fuck they are talking about, which precludes you.
And besides that, who the fuck is going to infringe upon a Woody Woodpecker logo trying to hit some flames with eyes, a mouth and little flame hands with a shovel anyway?
The ZigZag Hotshots have the coolest logo, Oak Grove had the lamest one.
Now…;the Santa Fe Hotshots had the BEST one…ever. An Indian Warrior, an Anglo Mountain Man and a Spanish Conquistador…all riding side by side on horses as recognition of the three races who comprised the Santa Fe Hotshots, almost always in equal numbers with a tribute to Santa Fe’s storied and colorful history for more than 300 years.
I approved it, but I did not create it, or even think of it, that was done by Richard Lastyona, who was (probably still is) from the Laguna Pueblo, but I still have the original artwork. Santa Fe Hotshots…email me at [email protected] and I will send it to you!
FYI…your history is off on your web site. What you show as the “original” artwork is a later version that came in some time after I left. What you now show as the “current” artwork is actually very similar to the true original artwork, but there are significant differences. Just a another little stroll down memory lane.
Also, unless you know something I don’t, the original Santa Fe Hotshots who were disbanded for performance and disciplinary reasons in the mid 1970’s had Al Lopez as their crew boss. Al ended up with the Carson Hotshots a few years later were he even had a worse run of it. But he was a hellava nice guy…
You forgot the White Boots, and the logo was donated to Oak grove at no cost by the Studio. It was designed by both the Superintendent Larry Boggs and Lutzs the creator of
WOODY WOOD PECKER. One of the only recognized comic book and screen caricature’s to ever be a Logo for a Hot Shot Crew. He allowed the use with authorization and a LLC.
In the 60,s most of the Hot Shot Crews were designing their LOGO,s which then became a standard for recognition.
A little history for you Gary.
WELL Bob…I do have to admit that having the creator of Woody the Woodpecker give your crew the rights to use him on your logo is pretty cool…IF you know that history.
Otherwise…having a Wood Pecker on a bad ass hotshot crew logo is a non sequitor…meaning “it does not follow” since I was one of those dumb ass “college boy” and it is pretty lame.
Although FYI…even if I were buddies with the creators of Donald Duck or Atom Ant…I would still NOT put those characters on a bad ass hotshot crew logo. Well…maybe Atom Ant?
Oh…and one more thing Fred. The coolest hardhats ever…bar none and hands down…the Payson Hotshots. I was always sooooo jealous.
But those were for the all district fire personnel right? Or was it just the hotshots?
Gary,
Thanks for the compliment and I am in total agreement on being the coolest hardhat color scheme out there.
We did it originally, so that aircraft could see us through the trees. Then, once we realized that most women just loved them, we of course, continued on.
The bees, wasps, and hornets really like them too, so that was kind of a hassle at time.
And yes, many of the District wildland fire people eventually adopted the colors as well because they probably wanted to look cool too, right.
Well…nothing in the nation from anyone else ever compared to that color scheme. Very, very, cool.
Reply to Robert the Second ( RTS ) post on
July 21, 2016 at 12:21 pm
>> RTS said…
>>
>> Gary,
>> Thanks for the compliment and I am in total
>> agreement on being the coolest hardhat color
>> scheme out there.
>>
>> We did it originally, so that aircraft could see
>> us through the trees. Then, once we realized
>> that most women just loved them, we of
>> course, continued on.
>>
>>
>> The bees, wasps, and hornets really like them
>> too, so that was kind of a hassle at time.
Yes. VERY COOL Helmets.
Here are the ‘Payson Hotshots’ ( with the cool helmets )… walking right at the camera…
https://www.flickr.com/photos/gilaforest/7355287670
http://hotlist.wildlandfire.com/threads/10280-Hardhat-colors
I’m ignorant.
All this time I just state “nation’s top fire fatality expert” when I speak on Dr. ted Putnam but I have no clue his history except smokejumper so it was neat to read this:
http://www.thebigroundtable.com/tag/hotshots/
Joy,
And the author, Anna Hiatt, chose to be willingly ignorant of the truth by intentionally neglecting what really occurred there that day from those of us that were there.
She chose instead to follow the alleged investigation report ‘facts’ and those touted by AZ AUSA Mike Johns..
The investigators, knowing that Crew Boss Larry Terra was NOT with the Crew when they were burned over, concluded that his absence would have had no significant out come on the fatalities. He left the fireline with the only radio and went to the store, returning as the fire was sweeping across the Control Road between Bonita Creek and Walk Moore Canyon. WTF?
She also takes many liberties similar to author Kyle Dickman.
Check out the Shift Plan cover on June 28, 1990, 2 days after the fatalities. Pretty crass!
http://www.fireleadership.gov/toolbox/staffride/downloads/lsr11/lsr11_iap_28.pdf
RTS,
Thanks for the shift plan link. Classy! I realize no one has the right not to be offended but come on! Some camp slug dufus came up with the piece of art I’m sure.
When reading about the legal battle that ensued following the Dude fire, I noticed this about the assistant us attorney, Mike Johns:
“Meanwhile, Janet Napolitano, then the U.S. Attorney for the District of Arizona, and Assistant U.S. Attorney Mike Johns—a former wildland firefighter and a crew foreman from 1968 to 1971 in the Payson Ranger District, where the Dude Fire occurred—were preparing the federal government’s defense against wrongful-death and personal-injury claims filed by the families of the deceased inmates, surviving inmates, Perryville crew representative Dave LaTour and by correctional officer Larry Terra.”
I don’t really have any specific point here but more of a curiosity. What was Johns’ history as a wff? Hotshot? Payson? Do you know him?
I also noted that this was not Scott Hunt’s first rodeo concerning legal ‘challenges’ following a fatality on a wildfire.
Thanks!
Woodsman
Did you see the SNAKE and his ‘quote’?
“I’ve had it with this shake and bake”.
Just TWO DAYS after people burned to death inside ( and outside ) their shelters on the same fire?
Unbelievable.
That person should have been FIRED and never let near a fire situation EVER AGAIN.
Woodsmsan,
Regarding AZ AUSA Mike Johns, it depends on where and what forum he posts his bio. Mostly, he is full of shite.
Here’s one from his very informative article titled: FIRE LAW.
http://www.iawfonline.org/summit/2005%20Presentations/2005_pdf/Johns.pdf
“MICHAEL A. JOHNS
– Assistant United States Attorney, Phoenix, Arizona.
– Payson Ranger District, Tonto National Forest, Helitack and Hotshot Crew Foreman,
1968-1971. ”
The Payson HS was an AD Crew in 1973 and officially a Type I HS Crew in 1974.
He was on Helitack, however, he is NOT truthful by claiming he was a [Payson] District Hotshot Crew Foreman anywhere in that range from 1968 to 1971.
RTS,
Thanks for the background on that guy. I figured you would know. I found it interesting that he was supposedly a HS foreman turned us attorney tasked with defending the gov’t against claims following wildfire fatalities.
Appreciate it.
Woodsman
Woodsman,
And the Perryville Crew legal debacle was a legal nightmare for the inmates’ families.
“Marvin and Catherine Chacon et al. v. State of Arizona never went to trial. Neither did lawsuits filed against the state by Dude Fire survivors Geoff Hatch and Patrick Flippen. On March 10, 1993, after nearly three years of depositions, hearings and countless court filings, Judge Sherry Hutt dismissed the claims and granted a judgment in favor of the state of Arizona. In an earlier ruling, Hutt had said that it was the U.S. Department of Agriculture’s Forest Service, not the state of Arizona, that controlled the fire-suppression efforts on the Dude Fire, and because of that, the case could only be decided at the federal level.”
The inmates were not covered under the Public Safety Officers’ Benefits Program, which is administered by the Department of Justice’s Bureau of Justice Assistance (BJA).
“The BJA stood by its original determination, and on June 25, 1992, once again denied the death-benefit claims. With one more administrative appeal left, [Inmate Family Attorney]Stephens filed again. But the BJA was unbending in its interpretation of the bill, and the families’ death benefits claims were denied for the third and final time on August 25, 1992”
“Without further administrative recourse, on October 14, 1992, Stephens filed suit in the U.S. Court of Federal Claims, in Washington, D.C. In Marvin A. Chacon et al. v. The United States, Stephens argued on behalf of the families of the deceased firefighters that by ignoring statements made by Warden Copeland and Arizona Assistant Attorney General Albrecht, the decision by BJA was “arbitrary and capricious, and not supported by substantial evidence,” and that it violated the agency’s own requirement to “give substantial weight to the evidence and findings of facts presented by state, local, and federal administrative and investigative agencies.”
“Nevertheless, in an opinion dated January 27, 1994, Judge Diane Gilbert Weinstein granted the U.S. government’s motion to dismiss the case, explaining that the inmates could not be considered to be serving a public agency, because according to the Arizona Department of Corrections, state prisoners are not considered to be employees of the state or the Department of Corrections. Nor could they be considered volunteers for the purpose of the law, Weinstein said, since the inmates were involuntarily committed and thus could not be properly considered to be volunteering their services to the state by serving on the fire crew. “While the choice to join the fire-suppression detail was termed ‘voluntary,'” Weinstein wrote, “serving on some detail was mandatory” as a condition of each man’s incarceration.”.
“A year later, the U.S. Court of Appeals for the Federal Circuit, in Washington, D.C., affirmed the lower court’s decision.”
Woodsman,
Taken from “The tragic tale of another deadly Arizona wildfire” by Jaime Joyce
http://theweek.com/articles/462521/tragic-tale-another-deadly-arizona-wildfire
RTS,
From your reference according to the Supe of the Alpine IHC JP Mattingly:
“In the interview, Mattingly also questioned the priorities of the incident commanders. “They seemed more concerned with saving structures,” Andrews wrote in her log. She quoted Mattingly as saying, “Should we have been in there at all?”
Incidentally, the structures were evacuated so fire managers were concerned with saving EMPTY structures. They should have said ’empty’ structures in the article.
So clearly history is repeating itself over & over and the arrogant incompetent cluelessness of fire management trudges on…
WFF’s out there, are you listening???
Woodsman
Reply to Joy A. Collura post on
July 21, 2016 at 5:22 pm
Joy posted a link…
http://hotlist.wildlandfire.com/threads/10280-Hardhat-colors
That page does, in fact, say that the ‘rules’ for ‘Helmet Colors’ in any particular region can be ‘suspended’ and that ‘Hotshot Crews’ be allowed to chose, themselves, what COLOR helmets they want to use.
gary said:
Joy and Sonny could probably sue the movie people, but I would like to wish Brian Frisby good luck in that endeavor because he is probably going to need it, but I will defer to somebody who knows what the fuck they are talking about, which precludes you.
MY REPLY: since I am hearing behind the scenes spliced information on this movie and the hikers- some that know say yes and some say no we are not in it nor do we want that- unless the whole story is being told and they hike with us—not doing SAIR narratives like other authors have done..so yes you are correct Gary there will be a lawsuit if we are used in the movie wrong and like I said earlier I finally feel at ease because we have the right area and right lawyer to handle big entities so I say anyone at this point “omit” us in their book or movie unless they have spoke to us again and have approval and had us fact check their work and to this date noone has come to us so NOTHING is approved for any future releases…including the material on us must be fact checked on authors not just movies-
Reply to Gary Olson post on July 20, 2016 at 3:17 pm
>> Gary Olson said…
>>
>> I suspect that the reasons the movie people changed the
>> names etc. has nothing to do with either the government
>> or those employees refusing to cooperate with the project
>> and their reasons are there own. That is why I can write a
>> book about what happened on the Yarnell Hill Fire…it is all in
>> the public domain as WTKTT likes to say, it’s not like we are
>> talking about Exxon Mobile..
I agree with just about everything you said above… but here is something to consider.
( Have to keep this short. Totally outta time ).
When the ‘Wildland Firefighters Foundation” ( that thing run by someone named Vicki Minor who used to run lunch wagons at fires and her son Burke ) came under scrutiny not long ago for possible ‘mis-use’ of the millions of dollars they were getting in response to the ‘Yarnell Hill Fire’… a complete AUDIT was ordered by a Judge.
As part of that ‘audit’… the ‘auditors’ looked at this program they had started whereby you could just go to their website and order T-Shirts with all kinds of Fire Crew names and logos on them…. and the ‘profits’ go right into the Wildland Firefighter Foundation’s general fund.
The auditors wanted to know where the fuck all THAT money was going, as well as what they were doing with all the ‘Yarnell Hill Fire’ donations.
As part of that ‘audit’… there was something about the Wildland Firefighter Foundation saying that the ONLY T-Shirts they could ‘SELL’ with Crew names and ‘logos’ on them ( Hotshot or otherwise ) were ones where they had the expressed PERMISSION of that ‘Crew Unit’ to be doing that… since THEY are the rightful ‘owners’ of both that NAME and that LOGO.
So there’s that, anyway.
Whether or not it’s ‘on file’ at the USPTO as either a ‘copyrighted’ or ‘trademarked’ name and/or logo… there are still ‘implied ownership’ rights… and you WILL get your butt in a sling if you just start willy-nilly ‘selling’ shit with those NAMES and LOGOS on them without the ‘owner’s permission’.
Bottom line is that we do NOT know WHY ( yet ) the ‘movie people’ felt the need to erase history and create a FAKE Type 1 IHC organization called the “Blue River Hotshots”.
They are currently filming at a FAKE bar they have created in Sante Fe… but they still went to the trouble to use the REAL NAME of the SAME BAR back in Prescott.
They obviously have that BAR OWNER’S ‘permission’ to be ‘using his name and logo’ there in Sante Fe… right down to the longhorn skull on the sign.
If they do NOT… well… they damn well better get it.
So something is ‘funky’ with this ‘Blue River Hotshots’ thing given the fact that something like that is far more important than just the name of some BAR that some of the GM Hotshots used to go to.
SOMEONE put a ‘wrench in the works’ there, somehow, with this “Blue River Hotshots” thing.
Yes but…I am going to stick with my opinion that the name, the “Blue Ridge Hotshots” is in the public domain as well as the work Brian Frisby did on behalf of the American tax payers on the Yarnell Hill Fire while he was on the government payroll.
So…the big question remains, why all the changes? And why the fuck couldn’t they have come up with a better logo than a fish jumping out of a river for a bad ass U.S. Forest Service Hotshot Crew and saved that logo for a movie about an anglers retreat or bed and breakfast in a “River Runs Through It” or whatever?
The only thing worse would have been a Woody Woodpecker with a shovel over his head chasing some flames with a face….am I right?
Maybe the movie should hire me to negotiate with the U.S. Forest Service, I got pretty good at telling them (management) to fuck off.
And yes, I can see where logos are completely different. Those have no official connection to the government whatsoever…otherwise you would NOT have a bohemian hippie dude smoking a joint as the logo for the ZigZag Hotshots which copies the official logo for Zig Zag Rolling Papers.
You Seem to be fixated on Woody Wood Pecker.
Jealous I suppose but back then many were before your time.
Yes the Hot Shot crews have the Rights to their LOGOS and their Names. The use must be authorized to copy or use.
Each Seperiate HS crew has to have a seperiate Name and LOGO.
As WTKTT said…I think there are SOME implied rights to hotshot logos but I will bet you about $800.00 I can get the U.S. Government Patent and Trademark Office to give me the exclusive rights to the now defunct Oak Grove Hotshot Logo with Woody The Woodpecker chasing some flames with a shovel AND I will have it placed on some toilet paper and send you a roll and keep the rest for myself.
In any case…ANY rights issued by the USP&TO have to be ENFORCED by those who have those roghts. So even after I get the right to your Wood Pecker, I will have to hire attorneys to go around the world and sue everybody else who wants to put the now defunct Oak Grove Hotshot Woodpecker logo on their own rolls of toilet paper to try and recover monetary damages that I lost because I didn’t get to sell ALL of the rolls of Oak Grove Wood Pecker toilet paper. But thanks for the history lesson anyway. .
You are a real case of I am important and know it all.
But if you check Woody wood pecker holds a copy right that will put you in court if you use it without a release to you. Yap its like Smokey.
I expect you to be proud of your logo as I am of mine
and I have two others that I worked with.
CHILAO and SWATOOTH.
I am as proud to have served on all three.
OH we were building hot line and chasing the flames while your crews were MOPPING UP.
Our LOGO was recognized nation wide I don’t even remember yours. Burnt trees that’s all you saw because they brought you in for mop up. Latrine duty ???????
And not that it matters to most people, but I do have my original federal agent badge but it was given back to me encased in about one pound of lucite after I retired so it would be pretty hard to talk your way onto an airplane with a gun by flashing that badge. In addition, when an agent retires, they are given a new badge with the words “Retired” in lieu of a number, which still opens a lot of doors…in a good way, for truth, justice and the American Way.
Don’t see my posts coming up. I was wondering what y’alls lessons learned are. Thanks.
I’m a relative newbie here, but I noticed a few of your posts coming up at once, so I assume you are new also. If so, welcome! I got a lot of help from everyone here when I first started posting, so I’d like to pass that on to you. I hope I’m not being presumptuous, but I hope this brief summary will encourage any lurkers out there to join the group.
For lessons learned on the YHF, that’s a big question, and I feel like we’re still trying to figure out what actually happened and why. I have stuck around here because of my respect for the other posters who are experts in their fields and are dedicated to learning the truth about YHF.
I had been reading here for a few months before I started posting a couple months ago. I have mostly asked questions to help understand what went wrong at YHF. I would suggest reading the articles on the site by John Dougherty as they inform much of what I know about the fire. Then read the Serious Accident Incident Report and the ADOSH report linked via the right column on every page.
I can’t speak for anyone but myself, but my lesson learned from Battlement Creek, Yarnell Hill and others would be don’t work for a bad boss. Failing that, it would be don’t follow a bad boss from a place of safety into a chimney choked with dry fuel into which a fire front is rushing. Third lesson learned is that the FF management and investigation system is more interested in saving reputations of working overhead than in developing useful lessons learned, especially when the problems boil down to so-called human factors. As you read the site, you will hear of all kinds of lapses on the YHF, from a bungled initial attack, to supes not showing up or walking out, to spending more time ordering lunch than keeping track of personnel, bungled transitions, a poisonous mix of wildland urban interface and structural firefighters overseeing hotshots, the list goes on. And then, 19 young men died. But the SAIR found that no one did anything wrong. Even after 40 years, official lessons learned from Battlement Creek are based on lies, a word I don’t use lightly.
Aside from a distracting and inexplicable fascination with the Granite Mountain movie which is currently in production?, much of recent discussion has been about how to recognize and prevent bad decision making under the stress of deteriorating conditions. RTS and others have been vocal about the dangers of fighting fires in the WUI, and Gary has started writing a book about it.
What brings you here? With your moniker, I assume you are a WLFF, so what do you see as the lessons learned?
Lessons learned, you ask?
Here’s one of many from me:
It’s a really bad idea to rob a hotshot crew of its most critical leadership resources to fill overhead positions. It’s a really, really bad idea to plan to do it ahead of time instead of as a last resort. (see Appendix J – Resource Orders starting at pg 32. Look at C-5, GMIHC. Read the positions for the crew members. Strange, right? ie: Marsh – STCR, Steed – TFLD? My professional opinion is that the IMT, through the ‘buddy buddy system, PLANNED to rob all kinds of resources from GM for various reasons not the least of which is extra $$ for the personnel AND their sponsoring agency. Anyone who claims that resource order is all straight and on the up & up IS A DAMN LIAR!)
If you do steal leadership resources from a hotshot crew, whether planned or off the cuff, it’s a really, really, REALLY bad idea to put them in charge of a division containing their own resources.
Good question on lessons learned as there are many. Muzzy touched on several key points as well.
I’d tell you all about municipal fire departments and their hybridization into the wildland realm AND my laser-focused analysis of what a battalion chief is…..but I’ve been beat to hell in the heat this week and I’m just going to relax now instead.
Good question, Type 6. I hope you get more answers!
Woodsman
Go Woodsman!
A merrier world it is with you here.
I’ll be darned. Even beyond on the sharp insights… I didn’t realize there was a “life of the party” component in there as well. LOL.
Whoops. TYPO. Meant to say…
I’ll be darned. Even beyond ALL the sharp insights… I didn’t realize there was a “life of the party” component in there as well. LOL.
Cheer,
OK. I’ll go on if you insist.
Lessons Learned.
Lesson: “something learned through experience” noun
Learned: “acquired by learning; a learned behavior” adjective
source: Merriam-Webster
It should be pointed out that firefighters can learn all the lessons in the world but if they fail or refuse TO APPLY them then it’s no good at all. We can all spend an extraordinary amount of energy right here in this forum (and many are actually contained in these comments) to identify ‘lessons learned’ from the Yarnell fire, and it would be very worthwhile to do so, But the key to the entire exercise is that wildland firefighters will apply them to future actions and decisions in order to prevent these tragedies from occurring in the future. That’s my goal. Prevention.
With that said, here’s one more “lesson that has already been identified in the past on a tragedy fire that ‘went in one ear & out the other’ of wildland firefighters across the country”
It’s a really bad idea to double-up one aerial resource for both Air Attack AND Lead Plane at the same time.
Again, it’s been identified as a no-no in the past but management just didn’t seem to give a shit about it. I don’t want to hear any more excuses about it either.
Freelancing aircraft disconnected from the operational needs of ground resources? Yeehaw!!! “Hold my beer and watch this!”
Crew in distress and yelling into the radio? Can’t you see I’m busy?
stupid bastards…
Woodsman
Woodsman,
You posted: “It should be pointed out that firefighters can learn all the lessons in the world but if they fail or refuse TO APPLY them then it’s no good at all.”
Exactly!
And that was certainly the case with the GMHS. They knew or should have known all the lessons, especially those lessons relevant to fires in their own backyard, their own turf. WTF!.
And so, they both failed and refused to apply them.
Type6 says
JULY 20, 2016 AT 4:43 AM was here and I say welcome back Type6
my lessons learned on the fire or its aftermath?
I would have to state my lessons learned from listening to others and reading alot of foias and just peaking to this page that there is more political push and pulls within this industry that is better left not talking about it or you may lose something from that- may it be your mind trying to gain as much information to be documented for the world to see that in reality NOT ALL the information can be shown as it happens because you could see much reaction of the wrong kind…remember people who use to come up to me with alot of excitement down right tug their head down tight and low in hopes I do not see them when they use to come to me and reach for me and say hi and then there are those who will say “troublemaker, how are u?” knowing full well they are being heard by their cronies and I down right say “wonderful.”..then asked “you finally done with the fire?” then I say which one…Sadler…Cart fire..Cramer fire…Rock Creek…Tuolumne fire..Spanish Ranch..Blue RIbbon….30-mile…Dude…Storm King/South Canyon…Coeur d’Alene CA which no movie was done for those loved ones but 78 died in a burn over not 19…Griffith Park fire…loss of 15 in Blackwater fire and as well our own IM Bob Power’s dad in the Rattlesnake fire ….Mann Gulch…Hauser Creek fire/Inaja fire/Loop fire where appx a dozen died, the Buckhorn fire…because I am not just getting foias for the fire that took 19 lives- I am seeing the common denominator in all fires and their tragedies…yet not once has anyone explained how come those loved ones do not have a movie but this last one they get a movie dedicated to their namesake as the title vs NO EXIT…On any fire, leadership and human factors shape our engagement with the fire and the management of risk… I feel they are in need of serious update. I strongly believe “experience and hands on” matters versus years in a position…I see that as my number one observation in the history the percentage laid more on less experience not on less years but not very well experienced in all areas within its job position on recognizing dangers. I also find it telling that in all the tragedies there seem to be a boss in the loss so that needs to be reviewed seriously. That is not good. I mean you can have young inexperienced ones on the line- the folks don’t know what they don’t know, and they are trusting their leadership and overhead to get them through. Their inexperience is understandable, and we need to do a better job of training and educating them, but most importantly empowering them. How do you react if your plan is challenged by a first or second year firefighter? How does a well seasoned firefighter deal with the political pulls and pushes on the line? appx 19 of 26 separate burnover incidents we have fatalities that occur in this time period-between 1448-1642. One of the most striking things about this is the short average time from blow-up to entrapment. It was listed at 24 minutes. I say you must be within 11 minutes of your safety zone PERIOD to ensure everything is ready for what is about to come. As I have done ALOT of interviews…alot…Shit I should make a true documentary on the interviews…but the point is they all said this common factor: during that late day we seem to acknowledge the fire is the strongest and we are at our weakest yet we still follow orders- in my life I have seen THE ENEMY and in this I call roaring late day wild fire THE ENEMY and I do not attack my enemy when I am weak and he is strong…????…to me I would have a mandatory break between 1:38pm-2:38pm because if you walk like I do ALOT…you know that is the ideal time to re-coop/reorganize and rest the mind for proper mental decisions ahead but America sees lunch when it sees lunch…In my research I have seen the pyramid of command poorly defined except Gary Olson- he said he was the TOP and the rest were the bottom; not poorly defined. I knew where he stood in his group but there is too many HATS going on is my opinion that chaos and confusion can happen. Like Marsh was the Superintendent but then became DIV that day can cause confusion…I am not for intermixing just to gain positions on your assignment…I mean in the chef world..when someone said “YES CHEF”…I knew it was me not the sous chef or station chef…in the kitchen they had no name they were just a tool to produce an outcome and that is what I see lacks in this industry of firefighting—too many want the POSITION…the TITLE…the higher paycheck…I see alot of WE have to do something when it should be the BOSS analyzes it and assess his plan and it is followed using the 10&18 and lces at all times and never dropping down into unburned fuel with a fire so near…I also do not like to see Burn crew from another fire independently lights around structures…multiple folks in charge but when it comes down to it 19 men die and you do not take the account and responsibility of your role that day- it’s wrong. Who the hell was in charge on that fire? Too many…and not enough alive are willing to share about it—but accept awards…bonus checks…it is a horseshit. I learned by both fires here that while both Initial Attack and Extended Attack are safe methods of controlling a fire, the transition period between them is extremely dangerous.If we had a strong leader in there they would see that with what resources are available and equals complexity in my opinion…keep it simple… if you are on my watch EVERY man or women is getting home…I cannot promise uninjured because mistakes are made of another due to extreme dehydration and did not follow the safety rules…but I am getting you home…take this youtibe link for a sample…https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UeEz5054-lo…excellent canvas ol western style print of YHF, right…someone commented to me Thu, Jul 21, 2016 at 3:53 PM: “Total FICTION.
Even in the oil painting… it doesn’t even show the ‘fuel’ that would keep the
fire burning and based on the ‘perspective’ and the ‘height’ of the ‘cartoon’
firefighters… they could have easily just ‘run away’ and TOWARDS the
viewer to get AWAY from the oncoming fireline.
They don’t even have the WIND blowing in the right direction.
This is GARBAGE.”
and that person is right….I am seeing too much horse shit and not enough people wanting to clean it up…so it is a freaking mess…but we just keep getting our checks and we keep paying our taxes to this kind of shit and we do not see ENOUGH not EVEN from the Hollywood world people attention to the areas needing attention and they are ok with it because again it’s a paycheck and we are doing a tribute and an honorable thing as we keep handing out flags and hearing Taps like there is no tomorrows…well, there ain’t for some and that is why I stay in this and keep learning…I can ramble more but want to head out with Sonny to get wood.
Reply to Type6 post on July 20, 2016 at 4:43 am
>> Type6 asked…
>>
>> I was wondering what y’alls lessons learned are. Thanks.
There are PLENTY of “Lessons to be Learned” from ALL THREE DAYS of this Yarnell Hill Fire fiasco… right on up to the “Greatest Blunder in the History of Wildland Firefighting” which took place on Sunday afternoon.
But as for Sunday afternoon alone…
1. If you don’t follow the established and accepted ‘rules of engagement’ for your own profession that have ALREADY been ‘paid for’ with MANY other lives… you could easily DIE.
2. If you believe that these ‘rules’ which have already been paid for via the highest possible price are somehow “Hillbilly”, or that you are “Smarter than that”… you could easily DIE.
NOTE: The two ‘quotes’ in number 2 above come directly from former Granite Mountain Hotshot Brendan McDonough, in his testimony to Arizona’s Department of Occupational Safety and Health ( ADOSH ) during THEIR legally-required investigation of the 19 fatalities in that Arizona Forestry workplace.
Brendan McDonough was TRAINED by Eric Marsh, Jesse Steed, and the other senior members of the organization known as the ‘Granite Mountain Hotshots’.
Brendan Mc Donut ought to demand his money back from whoever trained him as a wild land fire fighter==How was he able to graduate with a WTF attitude? Can you imagine working alongside Donut in a dangerous situation–but then his superiors abandoned him in a tight spot that would have killed him as well as the others. He had a lucky star that day — he ought to play the lottery with his luck. But like all luck situations, there is a time when luck does not help and common sense rules the day. Had he known enough about wild land fire fighting he would have never needed luck–he would not have been in that dangerous spot to start with. Once that fire went beserk, every firefighter had the duty to find a safe zone (they were in the black) and just set there and watch the big dog eat.
I wonder why they were learning lessons they should have already known. Maybe Roy Hall could shed some light on why the crew were ordered down in a no-no-never situation in order to do what Willis says they do–protect structures. But you see people that have any clout in this thing must consult their lawyers before they talk. Joy, their attorney, has to give anything said a jaundiced eye if it does not ring true to what keeps the system intact and tidy looking. There can’t be simple truth said in this situation–the public and especially the forest service and honchos involved want this painted with no blame despite the fact that all common sense wild land fire fighting rules were broken thus resulting in the deaths of 17 innocent souls whose only fault was to strictly take orders from their risk taking bosses. And who encouraged those bosses to do the unthinkable?
Norb tells me that since running two wild land fire fighting crews he never had a problem mixing the two situations–the hybrid wild land fire fighters that both protect structures and wild land fires. But then he also said he would never put his men in a situation he was able to access by hiking the route they made and surveying all the available information. He is retired–never lost a man on the job, but then he ascribes to the safety rules of wild land fire fighting and was not wont to risk his crew foolishly or because some boss above him was demanding he do the same. He is not alone from all the men who are well informed on applying common sense rules to taking care of their crews. I think the lessons were actually known but in the GMHS case the bosses blatantly disregarded them.
If anything, a young firefighter best evaluate the crew he wants to join. Provencio and RTS and others had pointed out the dangers of working with GMHS and even Donut spoke of how close he was to expiring on previous jobs. Your survival rate will go way down when you have a crew that considers the safety rules as Hill Billy. It tells me that this person hasn’t a clue and if he learned that from his bosses then he was truly in real danger.
The then mayor of Prescott told me that common sense goes a long ways–he knew I had refused to go down into that basin with the wild fire I was observing apt to change direction at any time. Forget worrying about the bear, it is the fire that will eat you. Just watched the true story movie where a gal and her boyfriend went camping in the Canadian Park–he got ate and she escaped with many injuries. Good God who the hell goes into bear country without something of either a good caliber or a 12 guage? Not Sonny for sure–it is like going down hill toward a fire with wind change warnings and planting yourself in a briar patch that extends for miles.
Lesson learned? Plenty on this one–some of these wild land fire fighting crews are woefully lacking in their ability to safely attack wild fires. I see that GMHS was in that category.
**
** THE ‘BLUE RIVER HOTSHOTS’ CREW CARRIERS
Regarding this TRIBUTE ‘fillum’ thing… it’s still fascinating to find clues emerging about how ‘inaccurate’ and ‘off the rails’ it really MIGHT turn out to be.
A few more PUBLIC photos posted ‘from the set’ now prove, beyond a shadow of a doubt, that the ‘movie people’ have either just DECIDED, or have been FORCED to make absolutely NO mention of the organization known as the “Blue Ridge Hotshots” in this ( supposed ) “True account of the Yarnell Hill Fire”.
Instead… they have willy-nilly just created this totally FAKE ‘Type 1 IHC’ organization known as the “Blue River Hotshots”… complete with its own FAKE ‘Logo’ showing a Salmon jumping out of a river.
And just about 1 week ago… ( on July 11 and 12 ) they apparently ‘filmed’ the scene where actor Miles Teller ( playing Brendan McDonough ) is ‘rescued’ by the “Blue River Hotshots”.
Actually… the following photos answer BOTH of the following questions once and for all…
Q1: Have they really changed the name of the “Blue Ridge Hotshots” to the “Blue River Hotshots”?
A1: YES. ‘Helmets’ with the FAKE ‘Blue River Hotshots’ NAME and the FAKE LOGO have already been seen in other photos… but the ones below actually show the FAKE name painted on the side of actual US Forestry Service aquamarine-colored Crew Carriers being used in the ‘FILLUM’.
Q2: Did/Does Eric Marsh’s longtime friend Alan Sinclair really have a REASON to be on the movie set?
A2: YES. It is still unknown if Alan Sinclair, himself, has any kind of official ‘consulting’ contract with the movie people, but the PUBLIC photos below now prove that Alan Sinclair’s own recently graduated-from-high-school SON, Ethan Sinclair, is actually IN this ‘FILLUM’ and is playing one of the “Blue River Hotshots”.
** FIRST DAY OF ‘BLUE RIVER HOTSHOT’ FILMING ( JULY 11 )…
Direct link to a PUBLIC ‘Tweet’ posted on July 11 saying that this was the ‘First day of filming’ which featured “Blue River Hotshots” ( including Alan Sinclair’s son Ethan )…
https://twitter.com/ASINCLAIR13/status/752693890201690113
Left to right in the photo…
Alan Sinclair, Josh Brolin, Ethan Sinclair, Alan Sinclair’s wife Colleen Dolly Sinclair
PUBLIC Photo CAPTION…
—————————————————————
@ASINCLAIR13 – Alan Sinclair’s PUBLIC Twitter handle
@OddSinclair – Ethan Sinclair’s PUBLIC Twitter handle
First day of filming with our friend Josh Brolin. #GraniteMountain
—————————————————————
NOTE: In the photo above, Ethan Sinclair is in Hotshot-issue olive-drab fatigues and the ‘blue’ T-shirt he is wearing has a ‘Blue River Hotshots’ logo on it. The LOGO they ‘made up’ for this FAKE “Blue River Hotshots” organization that has an image on it of a ‘Salmon’ jumping out of a river.
SIDENOTE: Allan Sinclair’s wife is/was a ‘Roller Derby’ person and her ‘stage name’ is ‘Dolly-de-los-Muertos’, which is a spoof off the name of the Latino Holiday known as “Dia-de-los-Muertos” ( Day of the Dead ), and her ‘stage name’ means “Dolly of the Dead”. “Dolly-de-los-Muertos” skates for the team known as the “Coffin Draggers”. ( No… I’m not making any of that up. Just ‘Google’ it if you don’t believe me. )
** SECOND ( FINAL ) DAY OF ‘BLUE RIVER HOTSHOT’ FILMING ( JULY 12 )…
Looks like July 12 was the one ( and ONLY ) day they spent any time filming any scenes that have anything to do with “Blue River Hotshots” and the rescue of actor Miles Teller playing McDonough.
It remains to be seen if they are TRUE to reality there and depict the rescue as the complete and total ‘accident’ that it was… or whether they try to portray it as some kind of ‘planned’ event.
Alan Sinclair’s son ( Ethan ) posted the following PUBLIC photos taken that day…
NOTE: Ethan Sinclair posted 3 PUBLIC photos at once here. It’s one of those Twitter ‘triple frame’ photo posts. Each photo is ‘clickable’ and brings up a larger version in another panel.
https://twitter.com/OddSinclair/status/752992989513814017
PUBLIC Photo CAPTION…
—————————————————————
Ethan ( wheat thin ) Sinclair
@OddSinclair
Ya boy done, with movie numba one.
—————————————————————
** FIRST PHOTO – LEFT SIDE
Left to right.. Ethan Sinclair, actor Miles Teller ( playing McDonough ), Alan Sinclair
US Forestry aquamarine-colored Crew Carrier is in the background with the FAKE name of BLUE RIVER HOTSHOTS fully painted where a real Type 1 IHC name would normally be.
** SECOND PHOTO – UPPER RIGHT SIDE
Left to right… Ethan Sinclair, and ( apparently ) Latino actor Rene Herrera, who is listed on the FILLUM’s IMDB page as playing the (quote) “Blue River Hotshot Captain”.
Background just shows ‘basecamp’ for that shooting session.
** THIRD PHOTO – LOWER RIGHT SIDE
Left to right… Ethan Sinclair, actor Miles Teller ( playing McDonough ).
Almost the same as photo 1… but this time just Ethan and Miles ( and without Ethan’s DAD Alan Sinclair in the photo ).
In the background ( to the RIGHT ) is another shot of the the BLUE RIVER HOTSHOTS Crew Carrier… and in the background ( to the LEFT ) is a vehicle that looks like just a pickup with a camper top painted to look like a ‘Prescott Fire Department’ vehicle ( white with red stripes )… but it also has “Granite Mountain Hotshots” painted on the back tailgate.
It’s unclear if this is an ‘actual’ vehicle that might have been rented from the City of Prescott… or something just ‘made up’ for the movie.
Neither the GM ‘Superintendent’ or ‘Chase’ trucks appear to have been just simply a pickup with a camper top.
NOTE: Miles Teller is actually a tall person… but Alan Sinclair’s son Ethan is UNUSUALLY tall, which is why he is ‘towering’ over Teller ( and even his father ) in these photos.
So they really ARE taking this thing ‘off the rails’ of the TRUTH with at least the IMPORTANT ‘detail’ of what the NAME of the other Type 1 IHC Hotshot crew that was working alongside Granite Mountain really was.
There is a ‘story’ there that has yet ( but I’m sure will eventually ) ‘be told’ about WHY this is so.
As in… whether the ‘movie people’ just DECIDED this on their own or whether that US Forestry Service and/or the ‘Blue Ridge Hotshots’ organization and/or ( perhaps ) even just Blue Ridge Hotshots themselves REFUSED to ‘cooperate’ with this production and this TRUBUTE film and they are FORCING the movie people to “leave them totally out of it” and never mention their REAL names.
And while it remains unclear if Alan Sinclair himself ( one of author John Maclean’s research assistants along with someone named Holly Neill ) has any kind of ‘official’ relationship to this movie as either a ‘paid’ or ‘unpaid’ consultant… it now remains EQUALLY UNCLEAR whether Alan Sinclair just ‘arranged’ to have his own son play a part in the movie… or whether that happened in any kind of ‘normal’ way.
There are NO prior ‘acting’ credits for ‘Ethan Sinclair’, and his name does NOT appear on the official IMDB cast list as of this writing.
If the movie directors truly want facts instead of fiction Joy Collura can compile a list of at least 50 top men, most wild land fire fighters that should be consulted. For proper details, WTKTT is top on the list–JD, Gary Olson, RTS, Norb, Muzzy, Bob Powers, Dr. Ted Putnam, RockSteady, Provencio, just to name a few. Nine out of ten are elite wild land firefighters and cover an encyclopedia of knowledge when it comes to fighting wild fires. Seems instead the movie directors are relying on a rookie that barely knew anything about wild land fire fighting and a widow that has an agenda.
It kind of reminds me of the movie “Everest”. They made it look like the guy that was in charge of taking people up there as some sort of hero. If you read it right he was inadequately prepared and caused the deaths of people he had accepted big money from to guide them up there. Like Marsh, he died trying to rectify his mistakes and save people not physically fit to make such a trip–people he should have never even hiked. Yet the movie made a rascal look good in the public eye.
WTKTT,
Re: So they really are taking this off the rails’ of the TRUTH with at least the IMPORTANT ‘detail’ of what the NAME of the other Type 1 IHC Hotshot crew that was working alongside Granite Mountain really was.
I’m curious to know why the small detail of the name of the IHC is of such importance to some of you. Yes, it may indicate that the Feds refused cooperation, but AFAIK, there is no trademark on unit names, so it was probably the director’s choice not to use the name. Maybe they wanted to inject a non-white face into an otherwise all white cast. If so, the choice of an Hispanic actor may be a hidden tribute to Coconino, Geronimo, and other units that are mixed Anglo, Hispanic, and Native. I’m down with that. Changing the name would make sense.
I have lots of concerns about how this story will get the Hollywood treatment, but changing unit names isn’t in the top 10. Charlie mentioned “Everest,” which I didn’t see, but I did read the true story and agree that there was a lost opportunity there, one very similar to this one, to show the compromises that are made when a leader perceives an existential threat to his livelihood. I recently rented a video of a real hero/rescue situation (The Finest Hours) that could have been so dramatic if the director had just told it in near real time, but instead they opted to insert a fiancé and back story that didn’t happen and that added nothing but a pretty face, and a sappy ending that was the payoff. In real life, the hero was married, his wife was home sick with a cold, and she didn’t even see him until he came off duty a few days later. There was lots of noise and water in between, but little feeling for how frightening it must have been to be out in a nor’easter in an overloaded boat at night.
Hollywood has been asked to provide more rolls for women, but tacking two dimensional pretty girls onto stories like this, which are all about the dynamics of all-male groups, does nothing to advance diversity, and ruins the main story.
We won’t know how the GM story will be handled until it cones out, and even the director, actors and writers may not know until post-production, so I will bide my time before passing judgement. I’m pessimistic, but miracles happen.
BTW, concerning the question of whether the Donut rescue by BR was accidental or planned, I believe it was planned in that BR knew they would probably have to rescue the crew buggies and other equipment, as had happened on other fires. Frisby was probably more aware of both Donut’s position and what the fire was doing than anyone on the fire, so he “swung by” to see if he could help. That sounds like a PLAN by a guy who didn’t want the hero treatment, just a guy who was doing his job…
Also see Charlie’s post below:
http://www.investigativemedia.com/please-begin-yarnell-hill-fire-chapter-xxii-here/#comment-342341
especially regarding Frisby.
Re: Coconino, Geronimo, and other units that are mixed Anglo, Hispanic, and Native
Not sure where I got Coconino IHC!
I doubt there has EVER been ANYBODY on the Geronimo Hotshots who was NOT from the San Carlos Apache Tribe or at least had a BIA Native American Tribal registration number issued to them based on their Native American blood. The BIA is the only government agency that can legally discriminate based on race…it is called Indian Preference.
So no mixing of the races on those crews…you are almost certainly Native American if you are on a BIA sponsored hotshot crew.
Gary,
You posted: “I doubt there has EVER been ANYBODY on the Geronimo Hotshots who was NOT from the San Carlos Apache Tribe or at least had a BIA Native American Tribal registration number issued to them based on their Native American blood.”
Geronimo Hot Shots (2000) Randy Anderson having served as the Foreman in (1999).
And in (2010-2012) was David Provencio, Jr.
https://gacc.nifc.gov/swcc/dc/nmsdc/documents/Crews/NMSDC_Hotshot_Crew_History_2013.pdf
Ya…that doesn’t count. I worked with many BIA employees over the decades that did not look any more like a Native American than I do or ever say they were Native Americans.
By BIA standards, you can get a tribal registration number IF you have one drop of Native American blood, which is the way it should be as far as I am concerned. I am not offering any opinion whatsoever on the policy or how it is implemented (see…Elisabeth Warren).
I simply know that they probably DO have that tribal registration number AND that goes on the application or the application goes in the round file.
I am going to BET you that Randy Anderson and David Provencio, Jr. have those numbers…period. Once again…it is called Indian Preference and it IS how the system works…period. The only way that policy is EVER circumvented is if NO Native American applied for the job…or if they need someone so qualified and specialized that no Native American meets that criteria. Maybe Mr. Anderson and Mr. Provencio were those people, maybe a hotshot crew boss could be that special, but they also very well may have their own registration numbers.
Those numbers are not specific to any single tribe or agency, for example, a tribal member from some east coast tribe can apply for a BIA or tribal job in California and receive the same consideration as a member of that California tribe. But someone who is from the tribe of Norsemen does NOT receive any consideration. It’s a pretty good gig if you have, or can get a tribal number and you want a government job.
And I just reviewed the “history” of the Santa Fe Hotshots in this document and some of it I wrote in response to an email several years ago but most of it is WRONG and INCOMPLETE and MISLEADING.
So if that is an example, some of what is written in that history PDF is accurate and it is a good start, but much of it is wrong, incomplete and misleading…probably throughout it for most if not all of the crews.
Reply to Gary Olson post on July 21, 2016 at 5:13 pm
>> Gary Olson said…
>>
>> And I just reviewed the “history” of the Santa Fe
>> Hotshots in this document and some of it I wrote
>> in response to an email several years ago but
>> most of it is WRONG and INCOMPLETE
>> and MISLEADING.
WONG and/or INCOMPLETE and/or MISLEADING information present on an NIFC ( gacc GOV ) website?
I’m SHOCKED.
SHOCKED, I tell you.
>> Gary Olson also said…
>>
>> So if that is an example, some of what is written in
>> that history PDF is accurate and it is a good start,
>> but much of it is wrong, incomplete
>> and misleading…probably throughout it for most if
>> not all of the crews.
Well… if the following ‘blurb’ about the ‘Gernonimo’ Hotshots can be believed… then there was “trouble in River City’ for the entire first FOUR YEARS they were being ‘allowed’ to call themselves a ‘Type 1 IHC Hotshot Crew’…
————————————————————
Geronimo Interagency Hotshot Crew History (1991 to Present)
The Geronimo Interagency Hotshot Crew (IHC) is hosted by the San Carlos Apache Tribal Natural Resources Program. The San Carlos Apache Reservation is located in Southeastern Arizona.
In 1991, the crew received its Interagency Hotshot Crew status as the Geronimo Interagency Hotshot Crew, hosted by the BIA San Carlos Agency. From 1991-1995 the crew was unfamiliar with Hotshot responsibilities, and had difficulties functioning appropriately. At the end of the 1995 fire season, with uncertainty in budget, the San Carlos Apache Tribe was approached by the BIA to assume control of the Hotshot Program.
In 1996, the San Carlos Apache Tribal Natural Resources Program began administering the crew under a PL93-638 contract. Michael Longknife assumed the Superintendent position and hired new crewmembers and squad bosses. Longknife, who had previously worked for the Globe and Helena Hotshots, helped advance the crew to its peak capabilities, like an IHC should perform.
————————————————————–
So ( providing this is TRUE )… let me see if I have this right…
1. In 1991… they were ‘certified’ as a REAL ‘Type 1 Hotshot’ Crew with the name “Geronimo Hotshots”… but they were ‘owned and operated’ by the BIA agency based in San Carlos.
2. For the next FOUR YEARS… from first being even ‘certified’ as a full-blown Type 1 IHC Crew…. they had their heads up their asses and were (quote) “unfamiliar with Hotshot responsibilities, and had difficulties functioning appropriately.”… yet they were STILL allowed to be considered a ‘fully functioning’ and ‘fully certified’ BIA Type 1 IHC Crew? For all FOUR of those years when they didn’t seem to even know what they were DOING?
3. After FOUR YEARS of this ‘fully certified’ BIA Type 1 Hotshot crew being known to have its head up its ass… the BIA finally ‘gave up’ on it and, at the end of the 1995 fire season, asked the ‘ San Carlos Apache Tribal Natural Resources Program’ to take this ‘Geronimo Hotshot’ Turkey off its hands?
4. Michel Longknife ( cool name, BTW ) is ‘hired’ and he finally gets these ‘Hotshots’ to the level they SHOULD have been BEFORE they were even certified or ALLOWED to be a ‘Type 1 Hotshot Crew’?
If all of that really is TRUE… that a ‘Type 1 Hotshot Crew’ that was CERTIFIED then spent its first FOUR YEARS of existence not even ‘meeting’ the minimum criteria for a ‘Hotshot Crew’ at all…
…then I refer everyone back to the discussions that have taken place on this forum about that very same situation possibly existing with ‘Granite Mountain’ itself.
If this ‘Gernonimo Hotshot History’ is accurate… then being ‘certified’ to actually BE a ‘Type 1 Hotshot Crew’ at all apparently doesn’t mean a whole hell of a lot.
It seems to mean you can NOT really be qualified… and still get the initial ‘Type 1’ certification… and then you can CONTINUE to be ‘not qualfied’ for YEARS and YEARS… and you never actually LOSE that ‘certification’.
It still remains to be learned WHO actually ‘signed off’ on Granite Mountains’ ‘certification’ that they were fully ready to BE a ‘Type 1 IHC Crew’ in the FIRST place.
Supposedly… THREE different people ‘signed off’ on Granite Mountain when they were still in their ‘Type 1 IHC Trainee’ phase, and after the THIRD ‘sign off’… they were ‘certified’ and that’s when Eric Marsh got the call in the middle of a fire season and then scraped the letter ‘T’ off the bumper of the GM Supt. Truck with his pocket knife… and they all ‘celebrated’.
But we still don’t have the NAMES of ANY of those THREE people that ‘signed off’ on Granite Mountain and ALLOWED them to even be considered a fully qualified ‘Type 1 IHC’.
And the ‘Geronimo Hotshots’ History now shows that even though you can get the ‘certification’… that doesn’t mean you SHOULD have or that you really ARE ‘qualified’ to be a Type 1 IHC Crew.
So Gary,
I read (can’t remember where) of at least two IHCs that prided themselves on their diverse membership. Was I dreaming?
Muzzy.
You posted: “BTW, concerning the question of whether the Donut rescue by BR was accidental or planned, I believe it was planned in that BR knew they would probably have to rescue the crew buggies and other equipment, as had happened on other fires. Frisby was probably more aware of both Donut’s position and what the fire was doing than anyone on the fire, so he “swung by” to see if he could help. That sounds like a PLAN by a guy who didn’t want the hero treatment, just a guy who was doing his job”
Thanks for posting this. I have felt this way all along about the BRHS scooping McDonough.
I always thought Frisby was a lot more aware and cognizant of the deteriorating fire weather and increasing fire behavior. The GMHS’ and their cavalier attitude toward McDonough and his way-too-close trigger point, with no heads up by his own Crew, gave that away.
Yes,
I’ve often thought how sad it is that Frisby hasn’t told his story. Given the times of Marsh/GM interactions with him, and the rescue and the eventual outcome, I think he is the one most in need of debriefing, a one-man lessons taught. I suspect he was at loggerheads with Marsh all day, Frisby trying to find a way for Marsh to do enough to look useful without endangering his crew. He must be heartbroken that he failed, even though it was not his fault, I can imagine he sees it as a failure of his own leadership skills that he couldn’t get through Marsh’s thick skull.
I’d still like to know whose voice was so much louder than Frisby’s and so compelling that those guys ended up where they did.
Muzzy ( and RTS ).
You are both completely WRONG about whether Frisby’s ‘rescue’ of Brendan McDonough had anything to do with Brian Frisby DECIDING to ‘go check on him’ even without being told/asked to do so.
Just a little over an HOUR after Frisby ‘accidentally’ stumbled across Brendan out there near the old-grader as he was on his way out to meet Marsh for that second face-to-face Marsh had requested at 3:27 PM… Brian Frisby himself was RECORDED by Prescott National Forest empllyee Aaron Hulburd telling THEM ( Hulburn, Jason Clawson and KC ‘Bucky’ Yowell ) that he had just ‘accidentally stumbled upon the lookout’.
We don’t even need any ‘Unit Logs’ or ‘Interviews’ to confirm this.
The RECORDING has Brian Frisby himself SPEAKING and TELLING Hulburd, Clawson and Yowell that he only accidentally ‘stumbled upon the lookout’ as he was driving out to meet Marsh.
Brendan McDonough himself testified that HE ( McDonough ) believed Frisby had been specifically ‘coming to get him’ even before McDonough could even make a request that he do so…
and McDonough apparently STILL believes this ‘fantasy’… since he said that is what happened in his own ‘for profit’ BOOK…
…but McDonough is ( and always has been ) MISTAKEN.
That is NOT what happened… and even just a little over an HOUR after it happened we have the actual RECORDING of Brian Frisby himself saying that is NOT what happened.
WTKTT,
RE: The RECORDING has Brian Frisby himself SPEAKING and TELLING Hulburd, Clawson and Yowell that he only accidentally ‘stumbled upon the lookout’ as he was driving out to meet Marsh.
I’m sure that’s how he presented it. What was he supposed to say, “Yeah, I knew Marsh would leave Donut out to get crispycrittered so I swung around to pick him up. You should have seen that puny assed safety zone they picked out!”
At that point, he didn’t know they were all goners. He was too much of a gentleman/team player to admit that he was cleaning up after Marsh, as others had done before.
Reply to Muzzy post on July 20, 2016 at 5:35 pm
>> Muzzy said…
>>
>> I’m sure that’s how he presented it.
>> What was he supposed to say,
>> “Yeah, I knew Marsh would leave Donut out
>> to get crispycrittered so I swung around to pick
>> him up. You should have seen that puny
>> assed safety zone they picked out!”
I think the moment that Brian Frisby and Trueheart Brown dropped Brendan off at the ‘T-Intersection’ just east of the old-grader… right around 12:30 PM… they knew very well that there was NO VALID SAFETY ZONE there in that area… regardless of what Jesse Steed or Eric Marsh had told Brendan.
That’s probably where the offer of “If you need us… just call us and we’ll come get you” came from.
It wasn’t an idle ‘favor’ being offered.
They knew damn well that if this kid got into trouble… SOMEONE with a 4 wheeler was going to HAVE to come and get him…. and since Granite Mountain had managed to get theirs ‘crispycrittered’ on another fire and hadn’t even bothered to replace it… they knew it was “Tag… you’re it” as far as anyone even HAVING a UTV/ATV out there in that area that day.
But that still doesn’t mean that factored into Frsiby’s thinking at 3:26 PM, when Marsh inexplicably asked Frisby to eat dust for 15 minutes and come ALL THE WAY back UP there… for some still-unknown reason….
…and then Frisby ( who had a lot going on himself at that point ) also inexplicably agreed to that ‘request’, at that late hour, and dropped what he was doing to go UP there.
There’s still never been a good explanation as to WHY Marsh wanted Frisby to schlep his ass all the way back UP to the ridge at that crucial point in the burn cycle.
It HAD to be because of something Eric Marsh wanted Frisby to SEE… and to SEE it in a way that Marsh thought only the view fro the ridge would provide.
Otherwise… why not just DISCUSS whatever Marsh had in mind over the radio?
The entire ‘second face-to-face’ still doesn’t even really make much sense… and no one has been able to successfully interview Frisby ( and/or Brown ) to determine is there is MORE to be known about what the second ‘face-to-face’ was even SUPPOSED to be ABOUT ( versus just discussing something over the radio ).
>> Muzzy also said…
>>
>> At that point, he didn’t know they were all goners.
>> He was too much of a gentleman/team player to
>> admit that he was cleaning up after Marsh, as
>> others had done before.
Well… there’s the rub… eh?
We still have NO IDEA what Type 1 IHC Superintendent Brian Frisby might have ‘thought’ about Eric Marsh and/or the entire GM organization.
He MAY actually be someone who, himself, ended up ‘not too surprised’ that they got themselves killed.
The ‘essence’ of him ( and the other Blue Ridgers ) religiously dodging all attempts to interview them for all this time might be because they are still trying, with all their might, not to ADMIT that they, themselves, thought Granite Mountain was just “an accident looking for a place to happen… and then they found the place”.
Perhaps it’s just a simple as a full commitment to the “If you don’t have anything good to day… don’t say anything at all” approach.
As for “that might just be way Frisby presented it” ( rescuing Brendan )… I don’t think there’s any reason to doubt that it really was all just as ‘matter of fact’ as Frisby described it.
From listening to all the radio traffic and other off-the-cuff recordings that captured Frisby speaking… I don’t think he was known for being any kind of ‘Chatty Kathy’ either ON or OFF the radio.
We don’t HEAR the ‘question’ that either Jason Clawson, Aaron Hulburd or KC ‘Bucky’ Yowell actually ASKED him in that M2U00271 video.
All we hear is Frisby ‘matter of fact’ short ‘report’.
1. I was on my way out to tie in with Eric ( as he requested ).
2. I happened to STUMBLE upon the lookout.
3. I got HIM ( and only him ) out of there.
4. We then got all the buggies out of there.
Bada-bing. Bada-boom.
Dem’s just ‘da facts’.
And I think those WERE ‘da facts’.
In other words… I don’t think at that point where we hear Frisby speaking that he was ‘filled’ with ANY sorts of urges to even ‘downplay’ what he was thinking or feeling… or that the whole situation was an unfolding ( but not unexpected ) ‘fuck up’ on Granite Mountain’s part.
Someone asked him how it was that Brendan was not WITH the others… or something along those lines… and he TOLD them.
No editorializing needed.
Followup…
See a longer post above about this that actually has the exact words that came out of Brian Frisby’s mouth as he was ‘reporting’ what happened with the ‘rescue’, only a little more than an hour after it happened, to Prescott National Forest employees Aaron Hulburd, Jason Clawson, and KC ‘Bucky’ Yowell.
Frisby TOLD them…
“I just happened to STUMBLE upon the lookout.”
http://www.investigativemedia.com/please-begin-yarnell-hill-fire-chapter-xxii-here/#comment-342393
Well if the movie makers faked the Blue Ridge Hotshot’s name by calling them the Blue River crew then we know this is going to be another fiction. The Blue Ridge refused a situation that would have gotten them killed–seems they get little attention but I have heard that a few intend to tell what they know someday. Under the contract they have they are obligated to keep mum about what they know. But someday that rule will no longer be valid.
This thing has already taken years–some are angered that people on this site continue to search out facts. They have too–pages and pages of testimony have been blacked out–if you don’t believe that get hold of their official investigative reports. These type cover up and self serving investigations often take years to get to the truth. But in this day and age of the internet too many wise men are not happy to brush this tragedy under the rug. They want facts not fiction. Not only the loved ones deserve it but the tax payer that was billed millions for a fire that by all good reason could have been doused the very first day it started. The excuse that it was too risky to put wild land fire fighters to work during the night hours doesn’t work. Norb tells me in these hot conditions he has had his crews preferring to work the night hours–it is cooler and is nothing but part of the wild land fire fighting work. Two or three good men could have been there in thirty minutes or less–had it contained when it was in the bud and in the boulders. Yet three local fire departments refused to make the effort. You can bet if they had seen a camp fire up there they would have been there in a heart beat. Conditions were extreme and they can spot a cigarette at 5 miles. What has become of our fire fighting world–shit my Dad and I contained similar lightening strikes only with shovels and picks at a greater distance from camp than this one was from Yarnell and in steeper terrain. The newly educated fire man–is it preferred that the fire becomes a million dollar affair–and in this Yarnell incident–a man killer as well. I have to admit those agent orange retardant drops make a nice spectacle–but that is another subject.
Here’s an interesting January 26, 2015 article by CRAP inventor Ivan Pupulidy in the IAWF Wildfire magazine titled: “Novices, Experts, and Errors: Toward a Safer Fire Ground.”
http://wildfiremagazine.org/article/novices-experts-and-errors-toward-a-safer-fire-ground/
His section headings and illustration titles include: “Introduction: “Daring greatly” and a shift to learning; Approaches to Error; Experts and novices; Table 1. Expectations of Novice and Expert (adapted from Flyvbjerg 2001); Table 2. Five levels of learning: Novice to Expert (adapted from Dreyfus & Dreyfus in Flyvbjerg 2001); a Summary: A learning approach to prevention, and a fairly good Bibliography of sources.”
His summary includes: “The first article in this series (“Recognize error to prevent accidents,” August 2014) discussed the journey from novice to expert. This article introduces the importance of understanding the differences in perspectives between novice and expert and it shows how experts, acting in a complex system, can find themselves in unfamiliar situations. Recognizing that the environment is delivering the unexpected may be easiest for the expert; however, this requires humility and allowing oneself to be vulnerable enough to admit that all the answers are not known.”
“There is also a growing understanding that the novice has a very important perspective to offer, which can only be useful if we are all humble enough to ask, listen and engage in group sensemaking. It is important for both leaders and followers to consider the importance of “upward voice” – beginners/novices should embrace the discomfort of vulnerability and speak up; experts should embrace the discomfort of vulnerability and create a safe environment for the powerless to speak up, when they see something “dumb, dangerous or different.””
“Simple, complicated and complex systems produce very different results, ranging from the predictable to the highly uncertain. As a result, interaction with these systems in the moment and during reviews has to be very different. While simple systems may respond to linear management processes, complex systems require sensemaking, learning and improvisation, instead of command, control and checklists (McDaniel 2007). Expertise improves a leaders’ ability to recognize complex situations that require adaptive responses. Understanding the difference between these systems and the role of error recognition must be reflected in the review of incidents and accidents, so that we can include learning in our approaches to prevention.”
We will also need to check out his first article in this series (“Recognize error to prevent accidents,” August 2014).
that name rings a bell..putting Dr. Ted Putnam aside where I know he was mentioned there at some point..did he ever in his life live in Las Cruces , NM like 80-84′ where Sonny raised his kids on a golf course and is he almost rounding up to 60y.o.- ??? same fella? I also knew an Ivan but back in Jersey long ago…when I was a 1940-50’s dancer…you do not hear that name often…ok heading to read article but heading seems familiar—I may of read it already but thank you RTS
Reply to Robert the Second ( RTS ) post on July 19, 2016 at 8:13 pm
>> RTS said…
>>
>> Here’s an interesting January 26, 2015 article by CRAP inventor Ivan Pupulidy
>> in the IAWF Wildfire magazine titled: “Novices, Experts, and Errors: Toward
>> a Safer Fire Ground.”
http://wildfiremagazine.org/article/novices-experts-and-errors-toward-a-safer-fire-ground/
Thank you for that link. Indeed… ‘interesting’ stuff ( given WHO the author is ).
I’d also draw everyone’s attention to something that was posted back in the last chapter of this ongoing discussion which contained some pretty revealing ‘off the cuff’ comments on a Facebook page from this ‘infamous’ Ivan Pupulidy guy.
The complete post is here…
http://www.investigativemedia.com/please-begin-yarnell-hill-chapter-xxi-here/#comment-336612
It contains a copy of a PUBLIC discussion about the Yarnell Fire that took place on Type 1 Hotshot Superintendent Don Feser’s PUBLIC ‘Facebook’ page and also included OTHER ‘Type 1 Hotshot Superintendents’.
On April 10, 2015 ( a year and a month ago ), Don Feser had a PUBLIC conversation on his Facebook page following the article that John Dougherty of InvestigativeMEDIA wrote about how “Brendan McDonough will testify if legally required”.
And Don Feser was pulling no punches with regards to the SAIT investigation.
He set the ‘tone’ of the conversation with this comment…
“Nobody bothered to ask McDonough what the last inter-crew radio messages were? They must have used the “if you don’t want to know the answer, don’t ask the question” investigative technique.”
and this comment of his as well…
“What I have read regarding Yarnell doesn’t pass the smell test.”
And it went on from there… with ‘agreement’ about the ‘Tactical Errors’ obviously made in Yarnell and WHY the SAIT had REFUSED to mention what was so obvious.
Basically a SCATHING review of the SAIT from these former Type 1 IHC Hotshot Superintendents and high-level Wildland Firefighters… and an opinion from Feser himself that Mike Dudley, Jim Karels, and other SAIT members probably need to (quote) “go down” for the botch job they did.
And guess who was actually PART of this PUBLIC conversation?
The mysterious Ivan Pupulidy… who we now know was basically the ‘secret author’ of the SAIT’s “Nobody did anything wrong, Move along” narrative.
Here is just ONE of the PUBLIC comments that Ivan Pupulidy made…
————————————————————————————————-
Comment from: Ivan Pupulidy – April 10, 2015 at 10:40 PM
We should begin to question some of the assumptions we hold dear in favor of learning from normal work. I am personally really tired of accidents. Bill Miller shared a statistic at FML that the land management agencies loose an average of 16 people per year – when will we give up secrets to keep our friends alive?
———————————————————————————————-
“When will we give up SECRETS to keep our friends ALIVE?”
Ivan Pupulidy
On the thought of accidents–One would wonder if the bicycle accident Marsh had could have affected his irrational decision to order his crew into the manzanita trap. View Joy’s photos of the very area the crew perished in that box canyon. She had taken the photos early the morning of June 30, 2013 when we worked our way through the maze to get to the fire edge while it was still in the boulders atop the Weaver Range. Amazingly we watched Marsh cross the fire edge several times–twice to converse with us–we were within a few yards of the fire edge that early morning at least an hour before the rest of his crew began their trek up the mountain.
Once the fire worked itself down the mountain and got into that manzanita then it became the horrendous wildfire spectacle that not even an army could have contained. These men were watching it from a different spot on the two track than where we were–actually Joy and I watched it take off about a quarter mile south of where they were and near where they decided to go down.
One thing ought to be changed–that is that is that to be a wild land fire fighter one must strictly take orders on a daily basis. If your boss has you breaking wild land fire fighting safety rules you ought to be encouraged to refuse instead of being obligated to strictly take orders. I believe if these men had been trained to refuse to disobey common sense safety rules that the bosses were willing to break, they would be alive today.
Provencio, RTS, and some other wild land fire fighting superintendents remaining anonymous had seen the GMHS crew as a disaster destined to happen–their refusal to put their own crews in situations that were against the safety rules of wild land fire fighting shows their concern for the safety of their crews. When I asked Norb, a man retired now who supervised two wild land fire fighting crews if he would have sent his men down in that canyon with that fire where it was and weather conditions know, he said absolutely not. But he is only one of the many fire fighters who have looked at the situation and said the same. It goes to show that you can be a superintendent of a crew but not necessarily a savvy one.
There was indeed one hero that is not much mentioned. Brian Frisby of the Blue Ridge crew that saved Donut. Donut would have been another casualty had not Frisby shown up on an ATV. There was no way Donut could have made it out on foot and had he deployed with his flimsy fire blanket at the old grader as he had in mind, he certainly would have perish. The tires burned off that and even the floor plate of steel turned blue with some old cream cans very close to the grader having the lead seal melted out like a tear drop.
Strangely these men had fought a very similar fire in manzanita right out of Prescott (Doce Fire). They should have known the danger of trying to challenge that type hot fire, especially the fact that you never go downhill toward a fire like that, and they would have known how difficult that thick manzanita is to get through. There is no running if the wind changes–that the knew was going to happen from meteorological reports. They should have known a canyon acts as a chimney and even without the chimney a wildfire goes twice as fast with only a 10% uphill grade. Weren’t they knowledgeable that they were breaking all the LCES? Certainly they had no lookout, and claimed communications were screwed up, they had no escape once down in that box canyon and the safety zone they provided for themselves was totally inadequate in a manzanita patch.
People continue to make out like these bosses that ran the Yarnell Hill Fire are heroes even though they made a mess of their job and wound up killing 17 innocent soul
.Perhaps most all first responders are heroes to take on a risky job as is a veteran willing to risk his life. But when you put three bullets in a six shooter and spin the cylinder, then stick it to your head and pull the trigger–that is your choice. But when you stick it to 17 other heads, not your own, then you have committed a crime. So I see that strictly obeying orders from a superintendent that has no clue and is willing to go against all common sense and all rules of safe wild land fire fighting is a situation that needs plenty of modification.
First rule after those deaths is to reveal the truth. The first rule goes along to save lives of future wild land fire fighters. Reputation protection and cover up is bullshit when it is at the expense of lives. ADOSH was right in fining the max on this job–was it $500,000? They knew it was a fuck up–and so do too many wild land fire fighters who know the facts.
Charlie said: Brian Frisby of the Blue Ridge crew…
MY REPLY- True story of the Fallen 19 Firefighters of the Granite Mountain Hot Shots Crew from Prescott Arizona–http://www.imdb.com/title/tt3829920/trivia?ref_=tt_trv_trv — yet we just again on IM “proved” EVEN the movie is not TRUE-
BLUE RIVER, Charlie…you see…they changed the name on us…where have we been…not in any caves lately?
It’s a bullshit,
Here is a March 7, 2014 Wildfire Magazine article by Richard C. McCrea titled “The Yarnell Hill Fire: A review of lessons learned.” Wildfire magazine is published by the (IAWF) The International Association of Wildland Fire.
Not really any new insights here, although he does echo what we have been saying for years:
“The real story is YH was much like many other entrapments in the last 20 years and the mistakes made are nothing new. I might as well have been writing about the South Canyon Fire of 1994. Other reviews of entrapment fires during the last 20 years have pointed out many of the same deficiencies in team management and safety practices. Are we condemned to keep making the same mistakes far into the future?”
“Skookum is a native American word used by some tribes in the Pacific Northwest, which means someone that could be counted on and reliable and hard-working. We need skookum leaders that will make wise decisions or we are condemned to repeating the same mistakes and a YH type tragedy will happen again.”
He talks of the Federal fire policy, IMT’s, fire behavior, Wildland Urban Interface, revisiting tactics and strategy, and more, however, there is NO actual discussion on Human Factors and only a brief quote from author Stephen Pyne regarding leadership and Human Factors, i.e. “flawed judgement.”
— Stephen Pyne, Proceedings of 3rd Fire Behavior and Fuels Conference, October 25-29, 2010, Spokane, Washington, USA. International Association of Wildland Fire.
http://wildfiremagazine.org/article/the-yarnell-hill-fire-a-review-of-lessons-learned/
I like Stephen Pyne… He is a quality man like John MacLean and Dr. Ted Putnam..it was funny because I was reading his book when the week he emailed us for a unique hike and time and I did not know he was emailing me so timing but very much like the way those three men present themself to the world…yes even though Maclean’s friends told me what he said about me…still like him…how can you not…good man. Well storming here. We tried to help Leo the homeless man to get him out of rain but he said he has a ride he was waiting on for Dr appt but so many people look so sick and I keep getting you look healthy (healthy means Joy put on weight and they are being kind…) I am doing hard labor lately but it ain’t helping and I’m eating right and alkaline… But shhh I do like a quality beef jerkey once in awhile…no lectures.. We all have something we do that ain’t good…Josh, thought about you when I was helping the homeless man…how is your brother doing…tell your brother I said hello…hope to see him soon.. Let him know I want to hike the trails with him….he is welcome anytime… Serious let him know..
Soft smiles..
So RTS
So many repetitive moments than how come back in the day when 14 died …why didn’t the film industry make a whole HOLLYWOOD film on those hotshots name not on the industry… What made these 20 stand out enough to have their own movies and gobs and gobs of money that no other tragedy in the industry saw …I have never understood why other hotshots can’t be honored but there is a movie on the gmhs only…can you help me make sense on that… Here we have HOW many similar tragedies but now its time to make a movie???? Why not then?
Joy,
Regarding the 1994 South Canyon Fire, the 14 that were killed were a mix of Hot Shots, Smokejumpers, and 2 Helitack.
As far as why there was no movie for this 1994 fatality fire compared to the YH fire, I have no idea.
Reply to Robert the Second ( RTS ) post on July 19, 2016 at 6:44 pm
>> RTS said…
>>
>> Here is a March 7, 2014 Wildfire Magazine article by Richard C. McCrea
>> titled “The Yarnell Hill Fire: A review of lessons learned.” Wildfire magazine
>> is published by the (IAWF) The International Association of Wildland Fire.
>>
>> Not really any new insights here, although he does echo what we have
>> been saying for years:
http://wildfiremagazine.org/article/the-yarnell-hill-fire-a-review-of-lessons-learned/
Thanks for that link. Totally RELEVANT.
>> WTKTT said…
>> Thanks for that link. Totally RELEVANT.
…and ( I should have said )… Totally WELL WRITTEN.
It’s amazing even this one no-nonsense article hasn’t received more recognition.
The TRUTH hurts… but much less than burning to death does.
Charlie this one is up your alley. http://wildfiretoday.com/2016/07/19/usfs-having-difficulty-hiring-firefighters-to-suppress-wildfires-in-area-contaminated-with-asbestos/
Your comment is awaiting moderation.
The take-away from Rattlesnake Fire was don’t bring lunch down so you can’t see the fire but what is the takeaway in your minds from the Yarnell fire. We learn lessons in this so what are yours.
Gary Olson may disagree with you:
http://www.ourfiregods.com/battlementcreekfire.html
The take-away from Rattlesnake Fire was don’t bring lunch down so you can’t see the fire but what is the takeaway in your minds from the Yarnell fire. We learn lessons in this so what are yours.
Reply to Joy A. Collura post on July 18, 2016 at 2:56 pm
>> Joy A. Collura said…
>>
>> I think Jeff is playing Duane S.
>>
>> it adds up behind the scenes-
Looks like TODAY was the ‘first day on set’ over there in New Mexico for actor Jeff Bridges, and the following PUBLIC Instagram photo seems to CONFIRM that Bridges will, in fact, be ‘playing’ Prescott’s FIRST ‘Wildland Division Chief’ Duane Steinbrink in the ‘FILLUM’…
https://www.instagram.com/p/BIAsrMtjLIG/?taken-by=jonwad
———————————————
July 18, 2016 – 1:00 PM ( 7 hours ago )
jonwad
Great day in the studio w Jeff Bridges.
Here w our director and the REAL Duane ( Steinbrink ).
#granitemountain
———————————————
That really IS Duane Steinbrink there on the left side of the photo along with actor Jeff Bridges ( center ) and director Kosinski standing on the right. It also looks like former GM-Hotshot-turned-actor Pat McCarty there with his BACK to the camera.
So if Jeff Bridges really is playing ‘Duan Steinbrink’… it begs the question about whether there is even any character in the ‘FILLUM’ named ‘Darrell Willis’?
NONE of the other male cast members ( other than Bridges ) shown on the IMDB page is anywhere near Darrell Willis’ age.
Are they just going to give the ‘Darrell Willis’ character a ‘clear miss’ in this TRIBUTE ‘fillum’?
OR ( perhaps? ) did the ‘real’ Darrell Willis somehow REFUSE to give his own permission to even be ‘represented’ in this ‘fillum’… or something?
I guess we’ll find out.
By the way… the people who are REALLY out there ‘hunting’ for anything and everything they can find that has anything to do with this movie are, of course, the pre-existing FAN CLUBS for all the actors involved in the film.
Here’s just one that is posting almost HOURLY with ‘new information’, photos, videos ( anything they can find ) regarding this in-progress ‘FILLUM’…
It’s the ‘Taylor Kitsch’ FAN CLUB…
http://www.fanforum.com/f309/%5Bno-exit-granite-mountain%5D-thread-1-we-cant-wait-see-taylor-firefighter-63171824/index15.html
wwtktt said: OR ( perhaps? ) did the ‘real’ Darrell Willis somehow REFUSE to give his own permission to even be ‘represented’ in this ‘fillum’… or something?
MY REPLY: I know we the eyewitnesses/hikers/last civilian hikers to see the GMHS REFUSED any future books or movies unless they fact check with us before anything went out to the world-
we saw what has been placed out and want NO part in ANY future articles, news/media, books or movies or even plays for that matter.
I am watching for the eyewitness hikers (us) (best to omit us) in any format that makes another money nowadays that is not having a set aside income for these GMHS kids’ futures in writing-I do have on the back burner a “willing” lawyer who practices in the areas of government investigations, professional liability, and civil litigation in the “exact” area I would need if needed so make sure your powers to be clearly” get that anyone thinking to use us or the NOT TRUE narrative in SAIR about us- for almost 3 decades this is that lawyers field- every lawyer I have dined with and had good times in downtown Phnx heard my behind the scenes facts/documented journey and they even say wow Joy that could of never happened any better (perfect lawyer) so I may be a housewife desert walker with no income but I now know the right folks — I can see how people feel more confident when they feel they got a lawyer to help them out…because all I have to do is the ground work of document, document, document and that includes certain ones of the YCSO outfit and their actions towards the hikers because every area matters-
even chief Ben Palm and his very slow acknowledgement letter of my FOIA request matters—“just saying”…also Peeples Valley fire dept…and etc…
by the way you are AI 🙂
you seem to have a better handle on things but good to see a public confirmation of what I just wrote about…right Muzzy…
**
** TENDERFOOT FIRE UPDATE
**
** CHIEF BEN PALM STILL INSISTS ‘FUEL ABATEMENT’ SAVED THE TOWN
Yarnell Fire Chief Ben Palm appears to be ‘doubling down’ on his claim that some kind of massive ‘fuel abatement’ effort is what kept the recent Yarnell ‘Tenderfoot Fire’ from ravaging the town.
He ( Palm ) just made a new BLOG post on the Yarnell Fire Department website.
http://yarnellfire.org/tenderfoot-and-many-more-2/
From that BLOG post…
—————————————————————————–
TENDERFOOT AND MANY MORE
By Chief Ben Palm
On June 8th, Yarnell residents experienced the fury of another fire. This time, the blaze called Tenderfoot, took no homes and more importantly, no lives. Yarnell Fire District wants to thank all of our residents for taking preparedness seriously. We all learned valuable lessons from the 2013 fire, and this time we were a prepared community. The recent Fuels Abatement Project proved successful in protecting our homes. The initial attack on Tenderfoot was also an important factor. But the community’s preparedness by creating defensible space and doing as Emergency Officials instructed was also a very important step in protecting lives and property. As your fire Chief, I personally thank you and the YFD Board of Directors for their support of the Fuels Project. I also thank YFD Captain John Rice and Volunteer Jeff Shearer, who responded in the initial attack.
—————————————————————————–
The recent Fuels Abatement Project proved successful in protecting our homes.
There is still absolutely NO indication that ANY serious ‘fuel abatement’ work was done there on the EAST side of Yarnell prior to the June 8 ‘Tenderfoot fire’.
There is also NOTHING on the Yarnell Fire Department website itself that gives any indication WHERE any of this ‘work’ that Chief Ben Palm keeps referring to might have even been done.
**
** ASK AWAY
Just a general ‘announcement’.
It’s been brought to my attention that someone is trying to ‘contact’ me regarding the Yarnell Hill Fire.
Someone who is known to be doing their own ‘research’ into the incident and who is also known to be ‘reading’ this Forum.
Well… here I am.
Ask away.
There’s nothing to be afraid of.
Re: Well… here I am.
Ask away.
There’s nothing to be afraid of.
Just in case the person has tried to comment but does not seem to be successful due to anti-spam measures, keep trying. New posters should be aware that posts containing more than one link will be held for moderation, and you may need to post three or four posts before they are published, even without links.
this is person is not new to here Muzzy- they can write without the anti-spam concerns.
I said alot but it was too long and probably best not public-
so to keep it simple.
The madness of misinformation and misleading and deception-
it has to stop…
nothing good can come from anything but documented facts not redacted narratives-
or more will perish..oh yeah Twisp fire…oops….
The Lebowski deserves his plug on IM 🙂
I think Jeff is playing Duane S.
it adds up behind the scenes-
“Marvel” Duane Allen Steinbrink…
these actors and ones playing actors…
they have to know this is like BIG BROTHER tv reality on cbs…they have “no clue” who the person is feeding me and my background in who is who I know…look around Josh…who is it that let’s me know what’s up—who can you trust on set to just let loose?
Tell me I am wrong about Jeff playing Duane 😉
“diary room” time 🙂
http://www.rustypistolscowboyband.com/
this is Duane…
Experience-
Division Chief
Prescott Fire Department
1974 – 2010 (36 years)
Wild land Division Chief as well as next door neighbor to Eric Marsh…and I can go on…
So Josh wants to make attacks on IM…I am just documenting, documenting, documenting since 6-28-13…keep at it…the twists can keep twisting but in the end the truth will be there…
http://westernnews.media.clients.ellingtoncms.com/img/news/tease/legacy/dcourier/120931a_t715.jpg?529764a1de2bdd0f74a9fb4f856b01a9d617b3e9
this is Duane
Bridges can pass for him here:
guy on right:
http://img.deseretnews.com/images/article/mcontentimage/1168101/1168101.jpg
Yes… some pretty good facial ‘similarities’ between Prescott’s FIRST ‘Wldland Division Chief’ Duane Steinbrink and actor Jeff Bridges…. especially when he has a ‘laugh’ or a ‘smile’ going on.
But I do wonder… if they are going to use their ‘expensive’ investment in Bridges to play Duane Steinbrink… then is there even going to be a ‘character’ named ‘Darrell Willis’ in the film at all?
Reply to Joy A. Collura post on July 18, 2016 at 2:56 pm
>> Joy A. Collura said…
>>
>> I think Jeff is playing Duane S.
>> it adds up behind the scenes-
I could see that. Jeff Bridges even LOOKS a little like Duane Steinbrink, the FIRST ‘Wildland Division Chief’ for the City of Prescott.
He’s the one that Eric Marsh thought he might ‘replace’ as ‘Wildland Division Chief’ when Stenibrink retired in 2010… but Eric Marsh got ‘passed over’ for that job at that time and the City of Prescott brought former STRUCTURE department Fire Chief ( and non-wildland firefighter ) Darrell Willis out of retirement instead.
Someone didn’t think Eric Marsh was ‘ready’ for the ‘Wildland Divison Chief’ position.. so in came non-wildland FF Darrell Willis.
But if Jeff Bridges is going to be PLAYING ‘Duane Steinbrink’… then I wonder if ‘Darrell Willis’ character is even in the film at all.
Maybe the ‘movie people’ are going to just use Bridges as some kind of COMPOSITE character who is supposed to represent BOTH Duane Steinbrink AND Darrell Willis?
Obviously if the ‘movie people’ have already decided to just change the NAME of the “Blue Ridge Hotshots” to the “Blue River Hotshots”… then they don’t give much of a crap about being ‘accurate’.
So maybe they are going to just ‘pretend’ that Duane Steinbrink never retired at all… and have Bridges play him and pretend he really was the ‘Prescott Fire Department Wildland Division Chief’ even on the day all of the GM Hotshots burned to death.
If you are going to pay those multi-millions of dollars just to even HAVE someone like Bridges in your ‘movie’… then you don’t just make him the “third firefighter from the left”.
You get your MONEY’S WORTH and give him a FEATURED role.
**
** ACTOR JOSH BROLIN LAUNCHES A PUBLIC ATTACK ON INVESTIGATIVE MEDIA
Well… I guess THIS was sort of ‘bound to happen’.
Apparently… someone has only now ‘informed’ actor Josh Brolin ( who is playing Eric Marsh in this Granite Mountain ‘movie’ thing ) that there is ( and always has been ) a PUBLIC discussion taking place about the National Historic Tragedy know as the “Yarnell Hill Fire”… and that ONE of those ‘places’ is right here on this ongoing InvestigativeMEDIA PUBLIC forum.
About 15 hours ago ( at 1 or 2 AM in the wee hours of the morning? )… Josh Brolin posted a ‘screenshot’ of the ‘InvestigativeMEDIA’ site on his own PUBLIC social media ( Instagram ) page.
That PUBLIC photo ( with his own PUBLIC commentary and, after 15 hours, the PUBLIC comments of others who follow his PUBLIC social media site(s) )… is HERE…
https://www.instagram.com/p/BH80HK1jtoi/?taken-by=joshbrolin&hl=en
Josh Brolin’s own PUBLIC comment(s) are below.
He actually had a LOT to say ( moreso than usual when he posts a PUBLIC photo )…. and it is all “as one might expect” from someone who doesn’t even seem to know that there are still many, many QUESTIONS that remain regarding what happened in Yarnell on June 30, 2013…
———————————————————————————–
joshbrolin
Hey folks. I want everyone to follow this site. It’s some bozo named Joseph or Jonathan or James Doughtery who’s supposedly (you can tell he wrote his own Wiki page) an award winning investigative journalist who has figured out that our extremely non-investigative but respectful story about the perishing of 19 Granite Mountain Hotshots in June of 2013 is being played by non-hotshots!!! Actors!!! And advisors who are making sure we stay as close to the verbiage hotshots and Wildland firefighters alike use (because we don’t know given WE’RE ACTORS!!!) are being called out as going Hollywood! Strangely Hollywood is New Mexico and New Orleans now. It hasn’t been Hollywood for a long time. Personally, we are trying to tell stories that are socially relevant and moving as America hits a high dislike around the world. To tell a crew of hotshots stories seems to conjure part of what has made America great: a sense of community, selflessness, unspoken altruism, and of course, shitty pay. We aren’t making these hotshots into martyrs but, rather, respectfully acknowledging all wildland firefighters for their service and skills. Why is it that there’s always somebody who needs attention and wants to call it dirty when we have @us_hotshots @wildlandfirefighting @wildland_firefighters and many family members supporting us to no immediate benefit to them? You’re not going away Joe, John, Jason, and you have our attention, but don’t for a second think that you’re bigger than what these fire fighters represented. That is not your legacy. Yours is a different one.
———————————————————————————–
Followup…
The rest of the PUBLIC comments that have already been left on actor Josh Brolin’s PUBLIC photo of the ‘InvestigativeMEDIA’ website are also “as one would expect”.
At least we know ( for sure ) know that actor Josh Brolin hasn’t deluded HIMSELF into thinking he is working on a project that is going to shed any real light on what actually happened in Yarnell on June 30, 2013.
At least we know ( for sure ) now that actor Josh Brolin, himself, KNOWS that all he is doing is making a TRIBUTE movie… to the GM Hotshots ( specifically ) and all ‘Hotshots’ at large.
That’s fine. Go for it. Do what you are being PAID ( a LOT of money ) to do.
People WILL go and see it. It might even make money for the producers.
But there are people ( family members included ) who still KNOW there is ‘more to learn’ about HOW and WHY those men died that day… and that there has been an extensive and involved ‘coverup’… and no ‘movie’ is going to make that go away.
Whoops. TYPO up above….
Meant to say…
At least we know ( for sure ) now that actor Josh Brolin hasn’t deluded HIMSELF into thinking he is working on a project that is going to shed any real light on what actually happened in Yarnell on June 30, 2013.
At least we know ( for sure ) now that actor Josh Brolin, himself, KNOWS that all he is doing is making a TRIBUTE movie… to the GM Hotshots ( specifically ) and all ‘Hotshots’ at large.
One thing is certain John Daugherty would certain to be slammed by someone–generally idiots who would deny the facts. Certainly no one denies the idea that most of the men were heroes following orders of two; et.al, who can not claim the title. Young men pushed to their deaths through their agreement to strictly follow orders puts no blame on their part. But the pushers Marsh and Steed, whom in early incidents had proven to squeak by without injuring their men with their dare devil tactics failed when they lost those 17 young souls under their command at Yarnell. The whole fire management was a failure–even to the evacuation of the residents–itself another squeak by situation. Despite the obvious, awards, handshakes and congratulations for saving locals lives were handed out like candy. At least some in ADOSH saw the truth and fined the maximum to people involved in this tragedy.
So why slam JD? It is just that when you stand up with the truth you will always step on some toes. JD’s reputation stands for itself–he is doing a heroes duty by standing in the line of fire. Too bad the actors and directors don’t do through research and consult John with his three plus years of experienced investigation on this fire. They might then agree with ADOSH and many of the elite wild land fire fighters that support IM and are well in agreement with John Daugherty’s investigative reports.
It is too bad Josh and the others involved in the movie are not willing to stand for the truth in this tragedy. If they were willing to stand in the line of fire as we see JD, Gary Olson, Dr. Ted Putnam, RTS, WTKTT, RockSteady, Bob Powers, Provencio Muzzy, Woodsman, Marti, Norb, and so many others–generally found on this site then they could also be heroes to the wild land fire fighting profession. Heroes because they would clean up some bad acting in the management of wild land fire fighting that caused the deaths of those young souls under Marsh and Steed as well as their superiors. They would be heroes because the exposure of the bad actions that Marsh and Steed led their men into were totally out of line with proper wild land fire fighting proceedures. Good God, dropping off into a box canyon of the densest dehydrated manzanita possible, with no look out, no escape route, weather reports of gusts of winds headed directly toward the men and arguements between Marsh and Steed as to leaving the safety of black to enter the most deadly situation to save abandoned structures stinks to high heaven.
Nearly all of the aforementioned men are elite people in the fire fighting profession. They are wild land fire fighters and supervisors of long time experience and wisdom in the field, having supervised their crews properly over decades of time. At least four are known and respected wild land death investigators. I have not listed the many others that post on this site and point out the disasterous way Marsh, Steed and their bosses were allowing and likely encouraging the GMHS crew preform in their dangerous manner. I would like to see any bunch of wild land bosses argue against the reputations and wisdom of the group I have listed above.
Now Joy tells me it seems from her review of the photos concerning the movie that there are many of Donut and Marsh–likely she thinks a movie mostly about those two. Donut is probably among the poorest examples of a wild land wild fire fighter you can find. He has proven this by telling the media that the rules of fire fighting safety are “Hillbilly”. He barely escaped a situation more than once that he should have never been in the first place. Blue Ridge supervisor Brian Frisby saved his ass and that only by chance. Then we have Marsh who certainly failed miserably as a supervisor by neglectfully and needlessly placing his men in high risk situations that eventually got them killed. It is interesting to know he was a nice guy and loved horses, but that did not make him a safe supervisor–information proved by Provencio, RTS and other supervisors who before the death of the 19 watched how motivated Marsh was to prove himself at the risk of his men’s lives.
Sadly in all this is that Mike Dudley and others in the profession turned their eyes from this evidence and testimony of respected supervisors so that reputations could be saved–but this is at the expense of lives of future wild land fire fighter lives. A great expense indeed. Shit, they did not even want Dr. Ted Putnam to hike up to the site, yet he is the renowned wild land fire fighter of wild land death investigations, being a 15 year veteran smoke jumper himself before becoming involved in wild land fire death investigations. Go look at the pages and pages of black out of the Forest Investigation. You would think this was a blacked out CIA investigation of top secret documents of the highest order.
ADOSH even had problems getting to documents that were stalled and redacted, yet their investigation speaks to what is actually going on here. Their maximum allowable fine of a bad management job of the Yarnell Hill Fire tells the story.
You can pretend all you want and deny the voices of the many well informed and knowledgeable men and women that post on this site and thereby you deny the facts in this case. You also then put the young lives of future wild land fire fighters at risk. Protecting your reputation is not worth more than those young lives. That is what some of authority are doing here. It behooves the movie makers, in between their smokes, to wake up to the seriousness of the Yarnell Hill Fire.
In this I have failed to mention the many people that have died here at Yarnell–at 90 deaths out of 645 residents in the three years since the fire. I believe that the retardant that was dumped to the tune of over 230,000 gallons next residences, and now add another 100,000 gallons or so since the recent fire has had much to do with that. There are 8-16% of these ingredients hidden from the public under patent laws so that residents and public near these chemical dumps do not know what they are inhaling. Gary Olson, long time wild land fire fighter now has COPD–wonders did his exposure over the years have anything to do with his recent diagnosis–and I myself also have suddenly come up with the same. And I do know the main ingredient that gives off NH3 ammonia gas is a lung cell destroyer. We need to know the other ingredients and their effects on our health considering how skewed the death toll has been here at Yarnell since the deadly fire. The forest service here has had no qualms in dumping hundreds of thousands of gallons of this shit near our town yet they know there has been no long time study of its effects on human health. I sure as hell will and has killed thousands of fish and aquatic life when accidentally dumped in rivers.
There is much more that certain people want the public to believe concerning the actions at Yarnell during the wild fire that began on June 28, 2013 and when it ended in the deaths of the 19 GMHS on June 30,2013. Some of us are not willing to allow the truth to be hidden behind a smoke screen of lies, blacked out documents, and refusals to listen to men of long experience in wild land fire fighting profession.
**
** ACTOR BROLIN REMOVES HIS PUBLIC ATTACK-POST
Well… sure enough… it appears that someone had a little ‘conversation’ with famous actor Josh Brolin ( like, perhaps, the people that are PAYING him MILLIONS of dollars to appear in THEIR movie ) and ‘reminded’ him that THEY are just trying to MAKE LOTS OF MONEY themselves and they don’t need the kind of ‘controversial publicity’ regarding the effort that Brolin was trying to stir up with his PUBLIC ‘Social Media’ posting(s).
It’s just a TRIBUTE film. Period. End of story. Nothing more / nothing less.
They ( the producers and investors ) do not CARE what REALLY happened to ‘Granite Mountain’… or WHY it might have happened… nor do they care if anyone ELSE cares about the real “Lessons Learned” that might keep OTHER firefighters from suffering the same horrible fate as GM.
They are just making a ‘movie’ that they want people to pay money to go and see… so that they can receive the maximum return on their HUGE ‘investment(s)’ ( Reportedly in the 55-60+ MILLION dollar range ).
That’s all.
Please ‘check controversy ( and the TRUTH ) at the door’.
So famous actor Josh Brolin’s PUBLIC ‘attack post’ of his that he put up in the wee hours of yesterday morning has now ( of course ) ‘disappeared’.
But just for ‘reference’… here are all the PUBLIC comments that had been left actor Josh Brolin’s PUBLIC posting as of last night, before that PUBLIC page ‘disappeared’.
I repeat… these are all PUBLIC comments made on a fully PUBLIC Internet web page at a time when it was STILL PUBLIC and BEFORE it ‘disappeared’.
If people don’t realize that everything that happens on the InterWeb is being RECORDED by public ‘Wayback’ machines and by the caches in their browsers…. well… then they NEED to realize that and remember that when making PUBLIC COMMENTS on PUBLIC web pages.
So here is that PUBLIC page ( and the PUBLIC comments that were left ) as of last night, BEFORE it ‘disappeared’.
SIDENOTE: Most of these PUBLIC comments left on that PUBLIC posting by famous actor Josh Brolin are simply ‘hilarious’ and worth reading just for a good chuckle.
———————————————————————
joshbrolin ( Josh Brolin )
Hey folks. I want everyone to follow this site. It’s some bozo named Joseph or Jonathan or James Doughtery who’s supposedly (you can tell he wrote his own Wiki page) an award winning investigative journalist who has figured out that our extremely non-investigative but respectful story about the perishing of 19 Granite Mountain Hotshots in June of 2013 is being played by non-hotshots!!! Actors!!! And advisors who are making sure we stay as close to the verbiage hotshots and Wildland firefighters alike use (because we don’t know given WE’RE ACTORS!!!) are being called out as going Hollywood! Strangely Hollywood is New Mexico and New Orleans now. It hasn’t been Hollywood for a long time. Personally, we are trying to tell stories that are socially relevant and moving as America hits a high dislike around the world. To tell a crew of hotshots stories seems to conjure part of what has made America great: a sense of community, selflessness, unspoken altruism, and of course, shitty pay. We aren’t making these hotshots into martyrs but, rather, respectfully acknowledging all wildland firefighters for their service and skills. Why is it that there’s always somebody who needs attention and wants to call it dirty when we have @us_hotshots @wildlandfirefighting @wildland_firefighters and many family members supporting us to no immediate benefit to them? You’re not going away Joe, John, Jason, and you have our attention, but don’t for a second think that you’re bigger than what these fire fighters represented. That is not your legacy. Yours is a different one.
** COMMENTS
goingdirect
Right on, Mr. Brolin. This blog site is full of vile slander and cruel attacks. It is about time the sewer lid comes off. My hat’s off to you for lifting it up, but beware the stench.
jackkalian
There’s always a Judas-little-c*nt.
_dusty45s_
I have the highest respect for legitimate journalists, whose numbers are extremely low in an age of corporate media in North America. Not only does this guy come across as a stereotypical tin foil hatter, but his writing is terrible, which one would assume to be a core requirement of a journalist.
apd1037
Well said Josh!!! This guy is beyond disrespectful and thinks he is going to uncover something that just is not there and I dont think he cares who he takes down in the process
agmisner (at) joshbrolin ( Amanda Misner ( Wilkinson ) )
don’t let this guy get to you, he has been talking shit about our men ( GMIHS) since day one.
mobraa86
If I were a man I’d take my hat off.
riviera_civiera (at) joshbrolin
he’s from a new generation that does not think of the consequences of what they put online…. Content does not have to be true, factual or even real anymore.
meinturtle
You should cast him as Hysterical Onlooker #2.
song_dog1027
From what I’ve read so far (it’s a little late for a big ol bag of BS) he just seems to string a few big (and somewhat unrelated) words together (probably hoping we’re all too dumb to know what he’s saying, so we’ll just sit there with a dumbfounded look and say “ah ha”), peppered with a few integral names and POOF…..you’re an investigative reporter. There is something about his writing that is very Geraldoish. The sad thing, in all his glory seeking, is that he doesn’t realize he’s hurting people with lies and rhetoric.
song_dog1027
PS…I’m pretty sure my cat could do a better investigative story, while he sat and licked his own ass. Okay, that’s my cue…goodnight.
md506med
I spent two summers on a BLM wildland crew in AZ. I’m happy to see attention being given to the job and (hopefully) more quality folks coming to the table. The fact it’s about Granite Mountain makes it even more meaningful. Thank you.
dodgebreeze
Missing 3-ballers . . Good shiza here Hollywood!
frostystunts
An empty can makes a lot of noise… Usually those with the least knowledge make the most noise
mickharrison1977
JB, thank you and all the crew for making this movie. As for the ‘Investigative Fucktard’, depopulation for him and his ilk would be saving grace of all mankind…by the way, on a more positive note America and her people are not disliked, its just the US political elite, their financiers and foreign policy that are intensely disliked! To that end bollocks to them and carry on making good movies. Slainte!
papa_dash
This asshole has no idea of the dedication, hard work and respect that you men have put into this film. The power of the pen has now revealed the dickhead behind it. I know most of you guys and know how hard you worked for this, thanks guys
hehami
Their story is one of heroism and great sacrifice. It should be told. Keep on truckin, sir!
oddsinclair ( Ethan G. Sinclair )
Lol. I wonder how personally his life is affected by wildland fire fighters. My house hold revolved heavily around it. I grew up around it. You’re doing it a justice josh. I wouldn’t sweat over this joke.
marvelduane ( Marvel Duane Steinbrink )
You have the support from all those that matter. We love and appreciate all that you and the others are doing to honor our 19.
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Exactly WTKTT–not much interest in the real story from the bozo crowd. They can’t bear to have their story challenged when it involves millions. What they do not understand is that Joy and I are survivors of that fire and this old codger stood right there on that two track shortly before those supposed knowledgeable bosses ordered their crew to descend into a trap. I am not a firefighter but damn well knew better to drop off into a trap. You can not make heroes out of bosses that killed their men. However the men that were ordered to their death were heroes–17 young men that believed their bosses knew what they were doing. Now tell me how Marsh and Steed are heroes when they did the unthinkable. Joy and I have hiked too many wild land fire fighters that have surveyed the situation–not one has said it was a heroic idea to drop your crew off into that box canyon with an uncontrollable wildfire apt to change direction anytime. All to a man, and I am talking experienced wild land fire fighting bosses–said that was a complete no-no and against all common sense and the wild land fire fighter safety rules of the ten and eighteen. Try anyway they can but you can not make heroes out of bosses that kill their men on those conditions, nor can you use Donut, a rookie and man without a clue when it comes to wild land fire fighting be a valid representation of what wild land fire fighters are about.
Nothing will convince this old mountain man of what I know from common sense and from every elite wild land fire fighter that investigated the incident. Granted there are a number who have an agenda to make a pigs ear into a silk purse–but it can’t be done with the facts as they are.
However, I will concede that a young man ought be very careful picking a wild land fire fighter boss. He ought to know that some bosses are not really qualified to be that and will needlessly risk your neck. It would be well to be schooled in all the safety rules like LCES and be prepared to refuse to engage when your boss wants you to break them All the LCES were broken by Marsh and Steed–and as a direct result they killed the 17 under them. If anything Marsh and Steed have done as a legacy is to teach wild land fire fighters how not to fight fires or needlessly risk your crew.
Once again… well said Charlie.
Thank you for pointing out again that regardless of anything else that was in the emails that US Forestry employee Mike Dudley was receiving ( shortly after the tragedy ) from respected Type 1 IHC Hotshot Superintendents was that ‘information’ that it was KNOWN in Hotshot circles that there are some Type 1 outfits that are ‘safer’ than others.
They were telling US Forestry employee Mike Dudley ( the person tasked with doing the official investigation of the greatest blunder in Wildland Firefighting History ) in WRITING that this was COMMON KNOWLEDGE… and there were only a few Type IHC Hotshots in ‘the business’ that they would trust with their own sons LIVES… but Mike Dudley didn’t lift one finger to even ‘follow up’ on that ‘potentially relevant’ information.
So we can only assume that situation, as it was being described to US Forestry employee and SAIT Co-Lead Mike Dudley, still EXISTS ‘out there’.
That there really might be OTHER ‘Type 1 IHC’ organizations that are ( like Granite Mountain appears to have been ) just an “accident looking for a place to happen”.
When airplanes fly into the ground… it is not uncommon for EVERY SIMILAR AIRCRAFT to be GROUNDED until real ‘investigators’ can say, for sure and certain, that the same ‘threat’ does not exist fleet-wide.
When the ‘Granite Mountain’ Type 1 IHC airplane ‘flew right into the ground and killed everyone onboard’ that day… there should have been a COMPLETE and TOTAL industry-wide review of ‘the fleet’ to make SURE there were not OTHER similar ‘organizations’ that were a similar “accident waiting to happen”.
A complete and total industry-wide qualifications review of ALL ‘supervisory’ personnel… and efforts made to make SURE all of those organizations were following the ‘rules of the profession’ and didn’t think all that was just “Hillbilly stuff” and “we’re smarter than that now” ( Both quotes directly from the only survivor of the Granite Mountain ‘crash’ ).
Even NOW… where would be the HARM in such a system-wide ‘review’… just to make SURE no one else is out there playing Ranger-Danger on any kind of ‘regular’ basis?
Answer: No harm whatsoever.
It would only be a GOOD thing to do… and just MIGHT reduce the chances of another ‘crash into the side of a mountain’ that COULD have been ‘prevented’.
Charlie,
Well said.
You posted: “You can not make heroes out of bosses that killed their men. …. Try anyway they can but you can not make heroes out of bosses that kill their men on those conditions, …. ”
A well respected Hot Shot, within a week of this tragedy, basically said the very same thing: “You can’t make heroes out of somebody that f**ked up.”
So then, ‘they’ must maintain that image of heroes killed by the big, bad fire, and since there was nothing anyone could have done to prevent it, then it was nobody’s fault,
Thanks for saying what needs to be said.
Wwtktt-
you would not see Miles Teller waste his time like Josh did this week and not because he is alot younger just not his style— Josh; placing his energy to do his one-sided attack (the world loves this kid Teller)— Josh needs to realize that Tex Gilligan (Sonny) went back for me in the same exact area those men dropped down that same exact afternoon on 6-30-13 and yet we are alive so we just want to know all the details to make sense of it all— Sonny cannot understand HOW anyone would drop into that basin…box canyon…so when Josh was here in Yarnell- what did you think when you went out there- did you go to the two track road and look down where they passed on? (
)
I cannot even see Jennifer doing that- she is more reserved…and who is Taylor playing; isn’t he like 35? and as far as Jeff Bridges..The Big Lebowski, I can see him and Alex Russell with Sonny enjoying a brew-ski…chilling- that guy is a hoot…I think if we ever do a meet-up party on IM, Jeff should be there 🙂 actually Geoff Stults (from ben part-7th Heaven to I Hope They Serve Beer in Hell part Dan) he is funny as hell too— he is 39 so who is he playing? also who is the evacuee that they are placing in this movie? Ryan Busch playing Deford looks like him…finally they list him but we knew he was long before IMDB..
Gary, as you well know, today is the 1976 Battlement Creek Fire anniversary. This document was attached to the national Situation Report today and all I could provide was a link.
http://www.nwcg.gov/sites/default/files/six-minutes-for-safety/This-Day-in-History/TDIH_BattlementCreek.pdf
You and Dr. Putnam have commented on the lies and coverups about this fire, so would you please compare this “6 Minutes For Safety” article to the truth of what and why these fatalities actually occurred. Thanks.
I second that request too from Gary; please.
RTS,
Gary can answer for himself, of course, but here is his “Reader’s Digest” version:
http://www.investigativemedia.com/please-begin-yarnell-hill-fire-chapter-xx-here/#comment-334400
I gather from all I’ve read from Gary (and Putnam) is that the insistence on not laying blame prevents a frank examination of the human factors that led to Battlement Creek and to the Yarnell Hill Fire debacle.
Muzzy, thanks. I forgot about this.
There are readily discrepancies. No, make that outright lies!
The “6 Minutes for Safety” version posted:
“The burnout squad consisted of the crew boss, squad boss and 2 crewmembers. The rest of the crew is improving the handline down the ridgetop. At this same time another crew is burning out in the bottom of the draw (Point C-D). The draw burns readily, uphill toward the ridge and the Mormon Lake crew.
NEITHER CREW KNEW OF THE SPECIFIC LOCATION OR ASSIGNMENT OF THE OTHER.”
And Gary tells us the truth with this on May 5, 2016:
“1, The Happy Jack Hotshots knew exactly where the Mormon Lake Hotshots were…we could see them on the fucking slope above us.
“2. The Mormon Lake Hotshots knew exactly where the Happy Jack Hotshots were, they could see us on the fucking slope below them.”
Regarding the “The burnout squad consisted of the crew boss, squad boss and 2 crewmembers,” the Crew Boss was actively burning out rather than managing his Crew and watching out for them.
“Regarding the “The burnout squad consisted of the crew boss, squad boss and 2 crewmembers,” the Crew Boss was actively burning out rather than managing his Crew and watching out for them.”
Yes, and even worse, the crew boss was well aware that he shouldn’t have been there, but he wanted to stay back to get the burn just so. Then the FS decides (apparently) that the crew boss’s arrogance and the crew’s obedience to patently foolhardy orders was not the problem, only that they should have worn different clothes and carried different equipment. IOW, they could have survived their unsafe acts if they had different stuff, so, keep up the unsafe behavior, we’ll just get you more stuff. Is that the lesson learned that would have saved the 19?
From Gary at the link below:
Darrell Willis told me himself that he was a student of the Battlement Creek Fire Disaster. Don’t you think it might have been helpful for Willis to read what kind of crew boss Tony Czak was and what he did wrong to not only kill himself but two others as well, plus a fourth who was severely burned with third degree burns over most of his body? Maybe Willis could have recognized that quality in Marsh and even managed to associate Marsh’s nickname (One Up) with the potential of the same thing happening to his “sons.” And now don’t you think it might be helpful to possibly saving the lives of future wildland firefighters by linking the reckless behavior of Tony Czak with that of Eric Marsh to clearly demonstrate what CAN and HAS happened?
Here is Gary’s treatise on the staff ride:
http://www.investigativemedia.com/please-begin-yarnell-hill-chapter-xxi-here/#comment-335991
good to see you Muzzy- thank you
Hey Joy,
Hope all is well with you!
muzzy said:
Hey Joy,
Hope all is well with you!
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MY REPLY:
The pain is constant…keeping my body balanced/alkaline and on the bilateral kidney stones down to one present on the scan and the colon after almost into the eighth week I had success and I have to accredit the doctor not me…the apricots and pears and plums and prunes were not a success as much as I would like to admit but the doctor’s methods were and well as it helps one area it causes another area to go odd and then they give you a pill for that but the actual surgery is just in my opinion way off…I am third in line for a cancellation but this month is just waiting and it is Sonny’s month…I sent the crew here the photos of what Sonny pulled down all on his own with a come-along and chain and wench; a forty foot tower..I helped stack and clean but I had nothing to do with the destruction of the tower but I will be making frames from some good barn wood and one will go to the family- as Sonny said we both arrived and were gonna decline the project since it was based free barn wood but out of all the wood not any to equal to the hard labor and heat but then you see the 2 very young kids…I will tell you Muzzy that Josh Brolin has to comprehend alot of us here have been tied to the world he lives nowadays at one phase or another in our lives so we are not gonna “buy” into his 24 hour tactics to make a brownie point amongst those on his set like oh-e we have a genuine movie star on our side—as Josh has done publicly in his life time (name drop)— I only have very minimal just so few can go back and fact check me out but I am not a fan of his recent tactic not only on Investigative Media and his one sided attack but also in his famed position his position on other political areas- he knows better but he is not a groomable guy in that sense- he does what he does when he is up late in the company of people he is trying to make them feel “impressed” by his quickie support tactic; clap, clap Josh…I predicted that it would be down by the 33rd hour—well, overall “doing”…over-heated doing yardwork at Sonny’s thinking of my pool at home…great day to “plunge”…but been more like a “purge” day..projectile vomiting kind of day…thanks for asking…Roy Moore the ol’ rancher died…man too many keep dropping like flies…also Will Smith the actor and Josh Brolin both stated publicly they are not in this world to solve mysteries or investigate crimes…so do not expect the kid to be a person who will really take the time to look and GET what this site is about…the movie will come and the movie will go and the truth will either be there at the forefront or hidden…but the dvd will be in the sale bin when if done properly for all fallen should stay firm in the “truth” documentary section…like a good Pearl Harbor or war movie because in a sense it is a war going out on those lines…I mean look at how many wounded…injured…dead…it could be less disastrous but it seems someone running the show thinks they are being valiant…as the flags are folded and handed to each widow and loved one and the Taps song fades and the bugle players march away…when are we going to be a world that honors the honorable by natural old age deaths not avoidable situations…
**
** PAT MCCARTY AND JOSH BROLIN AT “BROLIN’S PAD”…
Former GM Hothshot-turned-actor-movie-consultant Pat McCarty finally wrangled himself an invitation back to actor Josh Brolin’s multi-million dollar rented PAD where he is staying while playing ‘Eric Marsh’ in this ‘movie’ thing.
Actor Josh Brolin himself posted the following PHOTO on his own PUBLIC Instagram page…
https://www.instagram.com/p/BHtXuxij0h8/?taken-by=joshbrolin&hl=en
Here is the TEXT that Brolin entered for this PHOTO…
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joshbrolin
Firefighter Pat McCarty and me hanging out the house up on the hill.
We call it 8150 because of its elevation. I just finished a workout.
He just finished a beer. He looks way more relaxed than I do.
#us_hotshots #wildland_firefighters #wildlandfirefighting
#granitemountain #black_label_media
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He ( McCarty ) looks like he’s having a good time. That’s great.
In another Instagram post… actor Josh Brolin stated that former GM Hotshot Pat McCarty isn’t just a ‘consultant/actor’ on the film. Brolin goes so far as to say that McCarty is now the ‘heart’ of the effort and everyone’s ‘inspiration’.
I hope wherever they ‘premier’ this move ( Prescott? Nah. I doubt it ) that they let McCarty walk the red carpet like the rest of the ‘glamoratti’, and not have him sneak in the side door like all the rest of the ‘techies’ usually have to do.
As for the PAD where Brolin is staying… that’s the place that New Mexico film buffs already identified just HOURS after Brolin started posting pictures he was taking from that place on his PUBLIC Instagram account.
People in New Mexico ( and Sante Fe ) recognized the ‘house’ right away.
Josh Brolin is staying HERE, in Sante Fe, while he plays ‘Eric Marsh’ in the movie…
3256 Paseo Del Monte, Santa Fe, NM 87501
Corner of Paseo Ponderosa and Paseo Del Monte, in the Hyde Park Estates area, Northeast of Sante Fe, New Mexico, in Sante Fe County.
The number of the house is painted on the side of the house itself in 2 foot high vertical numbers, just to the right of the garage door.
** BILL GABBERT INTERVIEW REQUEST DELETED?
Also… something ODD just happened.
Just between the time I found this ‘photo’ and was able to ‘copy’ the comment from it above… another ‘comment’ that was right underneath Brolin’s initial TEXT that I also went back to ‘copy’ got DELETED.
There WAS a comment left there on this photo of Brolin and McCarty that was from Bill Gabbert, the sole author of the ‘Wildfire Today’ BLOG site.
Bill Gabbert was commenting ( via his OWN ‘Instagram’ account ) on this photo of Brolin and McCarty… and he also was fully indentifying himself and asking actor Josh Brolin if he could INTERVIEW him for ‘Wildfire Today’.
But that comment has just been DELETED ( by Brolin himself? ).
Something I do hope they add to the movie is the religious angle the GMHS are known for. Jim Jones would have been proud of how the leaders here buffaloed their subordinates into the “God thing”, with the duly appointed and respectfully followed leaders of the group. I am so proud that Donut found a God of sorts. Somewhere down the line it might hit him that the God the GMHS crew had was a bit bogus. Any God that would lead you into an inferno sounds like the devil to me. But Willis did say that God had other plans for them–what?–stoking furnaces?
Well praise the good lord and pass the bullets–maybe a shot of whiskey or a beer too. That is a damn good god with that type thinking–or in other words a lord that gives one brain enough to have one. I like atheists–they tell the truth more often.
I have had some thoughts on this since I was there where they went down. Why would I know better while 19 men did not. It damn sure is not because I am more intelligent. But experience since child hood of living though these storms had inculcated into my subconscious what I knew was going to happen without conscious awareness. Those wind changes had happened with the same conditions so often and suddenly during my childhood that I knew it would happen without having to think about it. Joy did not know it, nor did those men. It was a matter of subconscious for me, and even after I had gotten Joy to follow, it was a task to keep her moving. You can die trying to save others–but we did beat the bell toll by ten or eleven minutes- good enough–but barely.
If you have not watched all the movies that have been produced over the past 70 years they are all Hollywood productions.
The fires are faked the actions of the Fire Fighters are not correct appropriate or factual. The movie is to make money and the more horrific the fire the scenes and the heroism the better. It is a move not a history film.
Every one is heroes no one did any thing that killed the crew they will die HEROES in the movie,
I wont spend my time watching it or commenting on it.
Reply to Bob Powers post on July 17, 2016 at 11:02 am
>> Bob Powers said…
>>
>> The movie is to make money and the more horrific the fire
>> scenes and the heroism the better. It is a move not a history film.
Yep.
See the ‘new’ post above that has a link to actor Josh Brolin’s own PUBLIC ‘social media’ page where he has now launched how own personal ATTACK against John Dougherty and InvestigativeMEDIA.
It appears that even now…. actor Josh Brolin is completely ‘clueless’ that people like YOURSELF… with your reputation, experience and ‘skin in the game’…. are among those who have never bought into the BULLSHIT following the Yarnell Hill tragedy… and who are STILL concerned about the “Lessons to be Learned” and keeping OTHER firefighters from suffering the same fate as GM.
http://www.investigativemedia.com/please-begin-yarnell-hill-fire-chapter-xxii-here/#comment-342153
Hey Bob, I believe everyone one of us on here should watch the movie and make a list of all of the inaccuracies portrayed in the movie, so that when the media and or movie critics start toot the horn of this movie as being so great, they can come to IM and see the list of falsehoods…
Sort of like the old days when you paid your nickel to guess how many jelly beans were in the 1 gallon pickle jar… You pay to play… 🙂
Spending $15 and a couple hours of your time in a dark air conditioned theatre in order to be able to come on here and say “I have seen the movie and its total horse shit” is what your nickel is giving you the first hand opportunity to do..
Maybe we should start it off that everyone can pledge a nickel to see how many wrong things (jelley beans) are noticed in this movie (pickle jar)…
I am going to say 278…
We will have to find an impartial 3 person judging team though in case there is controversy if a bit in the movie is a lie, an inaccuracy, or maybe just an oops that was unavoidable…
I think it’s important to distinguish between factual lapses that serve to make the plot more understandable and those that divert attention from important truths. For example, the names and units of individuals who tried to correct Marsh’s risky and poorly disciplined firefighting style are not important, but if there is no mention of those things at all, an important opportunity is lost. Frequently, movies contain composite characters that represent the same or similar real-life characters in the plot. For example, the whole real-life city government may be represented by the Willis character, such that his words would reflect all the problems with higher-ups. That is ok, as there are already so many people to keep track off. What would be wrong is skirting the issue of budget concerns and the insecurity and even perceived danger to the hotshot crew that might have driven the decision making when the crew left the black, or just as they descended into the box canyon.
I’m afraid that the plot will be driven instead by the false narrative that the virtuous, innovative, and worthy Marsh was driven from firefighting by the big, bad, snobbish Feds, and forged his own path through a supportive and grateful local department who valued him, and his leadership style, which was good-natured but tough.
There are a couple of ways to play this kind of plot. If I were doing this, I would choose Das Boot (submarine story of WWII German captain and crew released in the 60s or 70s) as the model, moody, gritty, taut, slow moving but suspenseful. A story of a good but flawed working stiff just trying to make a living, ground in a mill cranked by powerful men who are far away in miles and worldview. It would be excellent (in my head, anyway), but even in my fantasy, I know it won’t make money.
Let’s face it, this is going to be an action film for 18-35 year old white males. Sorry, Gary, no extra bar pickup opportunities for hotshots!
Reply to Muzzy post on July 18, 2016 at 12:34 pm.
>> Muzzy said…
>>
>> Frequently, movies contain composite characters that
>> represent the same or similar real-life characters in the plot.
Exactly.
They have already announced that they have ‘cast’ an ‘Incident Commander’ ( Actor John Trejo, who is HALF Roy Hall’s age )… but it’s still not clear who ( or what ) actor ‘Jeff Bridges’ is playing.
My guess there would be ‘Darrell Willis’… but they might be using Bridges ( since he’s so expensive ) as a ‘composite’ of any number of people and ( like you said ) just representing “the powers that be” in Prescott.
But I really doubt that they will ACTUALLY show the screwed-up command structure that was happening in Yarnell on June 30, 2013.
Actor Trejo is going to supposedly be an ‘Incident Commander’… and presumably the ‘Roy Hall’ character… but I doubt they are going to even go near the fact that at the time the men died… there were TWO fully functioning ‘Field OPS’ in Yarnell… one of whom ( Paul Musser ) had just ‘jumped in’ to the fire from being just the ‘Planning OPS’ that day… and that this ‘confusion’ might have actually been a contributing factor in the deaths of those men ( Conflicting ORDERS coming from multiple sources ).
Nah… too complicated for just a TRIBUTE movie.
Of COURSE anyone who knows anything about the Yarnell Hill Fire will probably be able to pick this TRIBUTE thing apart all over the place… but the REAL concern is whether or not they take it into ‘La-la Land’ and it ends up TOTALLY ‘off the rails’ with regards to the TRUTH.
Arizona Occupational Safety and Health agency ALREADY determined ( officially ) that it was a VERY screwed-up ‘workplace’…. and they have ALREADY issued HISTORIC fines. The most they have EVER issued against any Arizona employer…. and indeed… the MAXIMUM they were even ALLOWED to issue, by law.
Will this TRIBUTE thing even ‘go there’?
Will people be walking out of the theatre sayinig…
“Man… those poor guys. That workplace was FUCKED UP”.
Or will people be walking out of the theatre with the same look on their faces that the family members had when they walked out of that original “Special Accident ( cough, cough ) Investigation Report” meeting… with not a single CLUE as to WHY 19 supposedly professional firefighters burned to death on the floor of a blind box canyon full of explosive fuel, with no lookout?
No one is expecting these ‘movie people’ to INVESTIGATE anything… but they still have to make CHOICES just to get this puppy in the can.
CHOICES like… where do THEY think Marsh actually was… and did Marsh actually ORDER Steed to bring the men down following an argument where Steed himself said flat-out he considered it a ‘dangerous move’ and did not WANT to attempt it?
We shall see.
**
** NOT SO CONTROLLED BURN
Movie actor Geoff Stults, who is one of the ‘fake Hotshots’ in this Granite Mountain ‘movie’ thing, has posted a new video on his own PUBLIC ‘Instagram’ page showing himself and the other ‘fake’ Hotshots actually near some REAL fire this time.
Geoff Stults calls it a (quote) “not so controlled burn”.
It actually looks like the REAL firefighters on the movie set DID have this ‘under control’… but maybe it just didn’t look that way to actor Geoff Stults.
Here is the VIDEO…
https://www.instagram.com/p/BHXBiMYBTUX/?taken-by=geoffmstults
Something interesting to notice in this video is that as the camera pans around… we appear to see al;most TWO full ‘Hotshot’ crews.
The crew BEHIND the camera appears to be the ‘fake’ Granite Mountain Hotshots… but when actor Geoff Stults pans around to what is in FRONT of him… we seem to see ANOTHER full set of Hotshots ‘leading’ them.
Maybe this is the ‘Sante Fe Hotshtos’, who have also been rumored to have been HIRED to assist in the making of this Granite Mountain ‘movie’ thing.
**
** ALAN SINCLAIR IS ALSO A PAID MOVIE CONSULTANT?
It is already known that former GM Hotshot Pat McCarty is being ‘paid’ to be a primary consultant for this ‘Granite Mountain’ movie thing and is somehow appearing in the film itself… and that former GM Hotshot Brandon Bunch is already listed as being a PAID ACTOR for the film ( playing his deceased
friend Garret Zuppiger )…
…but it now appears that Eric Marsh’s old ( close ) friend Alan Sinclair ( and the Incident Commander for the recent Yarnell ‘Tenderfoot Fire’ ) is ALSO involved in the ‘production’ in some official capacity.
Here is a PHOTO that actor Josh Brolin ( who is playing deceased GM Hotshot Eric Marsh ) posted to his PUBLIC Instagram page.
It was taken ‘on the set’ with Brolin in full Hotshot costume with former GM Hotshot Pat McCarty on Brolin’s ‘right’… and now Alan Sinclair on his ‘left’…
https://www.instagram.com/p/BHW_dWnDHcq/?taken-by=joshbrolin&hl=en
Here is the TEXT that Brolin himself posted along with the photo…
——————————————————————
joshbrolin
Me, Firefighter Pat McCarty, and Incident Commander Alan Sinclair on a hero rock watching a controlled fire just before a big rain rolled in.
New Mexico. @wildland_firefighters @wildlandfirefighting @us_hotshots #standuppeople #goodpeople
——————————————————————
Yes… this is the SAME ‘Alan Sinclair’ who just recently published his own ‘research’ into the Yarnell Hill Fire along with former firefighter Holly Neill. ( See below in this same chapter ).
These are the TWO people that book author John Maclean calls his “research team”.
It is also RUMORED that ‘Alan Sinclair’ himself *might* be the person that Amanda Marsh is now in a ( her words ) “relationship” with.
According to Amanda Marsh’s own ‘description’ of this ‘person’… Alan Sinclair fits her ‘description’ and Amanda Marsh was known to have been ‘visiting’ the ‘Tenderfoot Fire’ incident recently where Alan Sinclair was the ‘IC’.
Who Amanda Marsh is or isn’t in a ‘relationship’ with is, of course, her business, but if it really is “one of author John Maclean’s researchers’ and someone who is KNOWN to have already publicly been releasing his own ‘evidence’ regarding the Yarnell Hill Fire… and who CONTINUES to be one of author John Maclean’s ‘researchers’… that puts a slightly different ‘perspective’ on things.
In Amanda Marsh’s own words…
The Arizona Republic ( AZCENTRAL )
Article Title: Holding on to what was theirs: A Granite Mountain Hotshot widow’s story
Published: 4:02 a.m. MST June 26, 2016 – By: Yvonne Wingett Sanchez
http://www.azcentral.com/story/news/local/arizona-best-reads/2016/06/26/granite-mountain-hotshot-widows-story/85890188/
From this recent article…
——————————————————-
Amanda Marsh is ‘the widow’, but she is not alone.
She has found love again, to another first responder. They met last year.
She guards the details of their relationship but said he’s someone who was
also “very close” to the fire.
They share their grief.
“He gives me all kinds of room to be who I need to be, and to grieve,” she says.
“I’m still very married to Eric, but I AM in a relationship with another man.”
——————————————————-
WTKTT,
What do you mean by this statement? What “previously unknown group of Type 1 Hotshots who were actually working the Yarnell Hill Fire” are you specifically referring to?
“It actually means the people doing this movie thing have, apparently, researched it SO well that they have found a previously unknown group of Type 1 Hotshots who were actually working the Yarnell Hill Fire.”
Reply to Robert the Second ( RTS ) post on July 16, 2016 at 6:25 pm
>> RTS said…
>>
>> WTKTT,
>>
>> What do you mean by this statement? What “previously unknown
>> group of Type 1 Hotshots who were actually working the Yarnell
>> Hill Fire” are you specifically referring to?
That was total sarcasm. Sorry you missed it.
And I already responded to this below where you asked the same exact question…
http://www.investigativemedia.com/please-begin-yarnell-hill-fire-chapter-xxii-here/#comment-342079‘
BTW: I typed that ‘sarcasm’ when I thought the reference to “Blue RIVER Hotshots” was just some massive TYPO fuck-up on the part of the ‘movie’ people.
Turns out it is neither a TYPO nor a ‘fuck-up’.
They ( the movie people ) really ARE either DECIDING and/or have been FORCED to change the name of the “Blue RIVER Hotshots” to the “Blue RIVER Hotshots”.
And since they have already announced that Latino actor Rene Herrera is playing the leader of the “Blue RIVER Hotshots”… does that mean they are also DECIDING and/or are being FORCED to change his ‘character’ name from “Brian Frisby” to ( perhaps ) something like “Bernie Farsby”?
Dang… another TYPO on MY part.
Meant to say ( above )…
They ( the movie people ) really ARE either DECIDING and/or have been FORCED to change the name of the “Blue RIDGE Hotshots” to the “Blue RIVER Hotshots”.
WTKTT,
You posted: “It is also RUMORED that ‘Alan Sinclair’ himself *might* be the person that Amanda Marsh is now in a ( her words ) “relationship” with.”
That’s exactly what it is, a RUMOR.
Sinclair and both Eric and Amanda Marsh have/had been friends since Eric worked on the Globe Ranger District, long before the June 2013 YH Fire.
And he is likely NOT a paid movie consultant since that may very well be a conflict of interest with his real job.
Reply to Robert the Second ( RTS ) post on
July 16, 2016 at 6:29 pm
>> RTS said…
>>
>> Sinclair and both Eric and Amanda Marsh have/had been
>> friends since Eric worked on the Globe Ranger District, long
>> before the June 2013 YH Fire.
It’s also true that Amanda Marsh told the reporter that the ‘new man’ that she is “in a relationship with” is someone she only met ‘last year’.
Given the long friendship between Alan Sinclair and Eric Marsh… it seems likely that Amanda would certainly have ‘met’ Alan Sinclair sooner than just 1 year ago… but it also remains a fact that Alan Sinclair FITS the general description.
>> RTS said…
>>
>> And he is likely NOT a paid movie consultant since that may very
>> well be a conflict of interest with his real job.
So… how is Prescott Fire Department employee Pat McCarty pulling it off?
If the people you work for give you PERMISSION to accept an ‘outside contract’… then it’s not a ‘conflict of interest’ at all.
The “conflict of interest” with regards to Alan Sinclair that would ‘bother’ me is if he is accepting money for working on a movie which the producers themselves have ALREADY ‘announced’ really just has the sole purpose of GLORIFYING the “Granite Mountain Hotshots”… but then Alan Sinclair remains listed as one of author John Maclean’s PRIMARY RESEARCH ASSISTANTS for that ‘commercial venture’ and while THAT ‘for profit’ book limps its way to the marketplace.
Not sure how many movie sets you have been on… but they don’t usually let just ‘sightseers’ hang around on the actual set… much less around the lead actors while they are in full costume and makeup and ‘at work’.
If you are THERE ( as the photo shows Sinclair was )… you usually have an ‘official’ REASON to be there.
Even if Sinclair is doing something for the movie as an ‘unpaid consultant’… I think that makes his ‘other’ role as one of John Maclean’s primary research assistants more than a little ‘suspect’.
Maybe John Maclean himself didn’t fall off the turnip truck yesterday… and he is smart enough to ‘sort out’ the agendas of his own ‘research assistants’.
I certainly hope so.
WTKTT,
You posted: “but it also remains a fact that Alan Sinclair FITS the general description.”
Amanda Marsh’s interview said “She has found love again, to another first responder. They met last year.”
Sinclair does NOT FIT “the general description” because he is NOT “another first responder” and they did NOT just meet “last year.”
She has to have another beau that is a “first responder” and they “met last year.”
See my other comment above.
Yes.. given the LONG ‘friendship’ between Alan Sinclair and Eric Marsh… it DOES seem highly likely that Sinclair would have met Amanda earlier than just 1 year ago.
But as for ‘first responder’… I think a lot of these WFF people DO consider themselves ‘first responders’… and the media is now well accustomed to referring to them that way ( even if they are not ACTUALLY, officially part of any kind of ‘Initial Attack’ crew ).
But with or without any potential ‘romantic’ connection back to Amanda Marsh… I think Alan Sinclair’s involvement with the ‘movie’ thing still might represent a direct ‘conflict of interest’ with his OTHER self-appointed role as one of author John Maclean’s PRIMARY RESEARCHERS.
I just hope author John Maclean is doing the correct amount of ‘buyer beware’ for any/all ‘research information’ he is getting from BOTH Alan Sinclair AND Holly Neill.
A local here can confirm she is not dating Sinclair and he knew Eric and has been there for his best friend and its dumb to read that wwtktt..like a national enquirer tidbit because there is more public information that also proves sinair has a lovely wife and so I disagree of talk about marsh and Sinclair… RTS is spot on here
I do think because Alan was a “friend” to Eric for a very long time long before GMHS and long before either men had married their sweethearts that he is the proper person to represent Eric Marsh for any book or movies and I do not feel it is a conflict or interest- how? Because he is an incident commander?
also did not mean you were giving out tidbit comparable to national enquirer just seem so far fecthed like something you read in those kind of places…sorry wwtktt
Joy… see my other comment below.
Based on what you have said… count me as someone who now no longer believes any ‘rumors’ that Alan Sinclair is the person who Amanda Marsh is having a ‘relationship’ with ( other than friendship ).
But Alan Sinclair IS, still, the person who just recently revealed himself as that ‘other’ ‘primary researcher’ working for book author John Maclean ( along with this Holly Neill person ).
And now there he is ( in Josh Brolin’s own photo ) also showing up ‘on the movie set’.
yeah but again Alan was a friend a long time to Eric so to me I would want my good friend to represent me in all areas about me…you know.
Thank you, Joy. Based on that… then I am no longer someone who believes the rumor that the person Amanda Marsh *might* now be having a ‘relationship’ with is Alan Sinclair.
But regardless… Alan Sinclair IS also the person who recently revealed himself as that ‘other’ PRIMARY research assistant working WITH Holly Neill…. and that both of them have been working FOR book author John Maclean.
His ‘relationship’ to the ‘movie’ is not fully known… but that really is HIM sitting on that rock ‘on the movie set’ with former GM Hotshot-turned-actor-and-movie consultant Pat McCarty… and lead actor ( playing Eric Marsh ) Josh Brolin.
According to social media Amanda Marsh is in a relationship with Jason Lohman.
**
** THE ‘BLUE RIVER HOTSHOTS’ — UPDATE
As it turns out… that doesn’t appear to be a TYPO at all on the IMDB page.
Darin Eppich is a ‘producer’ involved with this ‘Granite Mountain’ movie thing and he has been ‘on the set’ there in New Mexico and posting photos to his own PUBLIC social media ( Instagram ) site.
Look closely at the following photo he posted ‘from the set’…
https://www.instagram.com/p/BHx_XUIju__/?taken-by=darineppich&hl=en
Sitting on the ‘bumper’ of the US Forestry-colored vehicle, next to the ‘camera slate’ with the ‘Granite Mountain’ film logos are two BLUE HELMETS.
The BLUE HELMETS actually say “The Blue RIVER Hotshots”… and the logo is some kind of made-up Salmon jumping out of a ‘River’.
So it appears that the listing of Latino actor ‘Rene Herrera’ as being cast to play the “Captain of the Blue River Hotshots” on the IMDB page isn’t some kind of massive TYPO at all.
What appears to be actually going on here is that either the Movie people DECIDED not to actually use the name “Blue Ridge Hotshots”… or they could not obtain PERMISSION from the US Forestry Service and/or the “Blue Ridge Hotshots” organization to use their name in the film.
So they just CHANGED it from “Blue Ridge Hotshots” to “Blue River Hotshots” and made up their own fake logo for this fake Type 1 IHC crew.
Also… producer Darrin Eppich has now also ‘put to rest’ another rumor that the movie people might actually try to film at the actual ‘Granite Mountain Station 7’ in Prescott.
Eppich has posted ANOTHER photo of what appears to be the ‘fake’ Granite Mountain Station 7 there in New Mexico… with the actual 2 Granite Mountain Crew Carriers parked at it…
https://www.instagram.com/p/BH5LpLSjXpH/?taken-by=darineppich&hl=en
There are still NO reports of anyone even trying to obtain ‘filming permits’ anywhere in the Prescott area… so it really does look like the ‘movie people’ have decided to give Arizona ( and Prescott and Yarnell ) a complete and total ‘miss’ with regards to this ‘movie’ thing.
Another interesting PUBLIC Instagram post from the set of this ‘Granite Mountain’ movie thing from producer Darin Eppich.
This one is actually a VIDEO which shows the ‘fake smoke’ they are using extensively.
It’s a ‘fogging machine’ on steroids.
It does NOT look REAL at all… but movie goers/payers will probably buy it… and isn’t that all that really matters?
https://www.instagram.com/p/BHvtDlEjdUW/?taken-by=darineppich&hl=en
Also… 48 hours ago… Actor Miles Teller was allowed to ‘leave’ the New Mexico film set and go off and appear as a ‘presenter’ at this year’s EPSY awards.
Miles Teller is now known to be the one playing Brendan McDonough… and the producers have already said that whatever this film is ‘about’… the ‘story’ is somehow being told via the relationship between Eric Marsh and Brendan McDonough.
Whatever.
It is also known that Miles Teller is trying to LOOK like Brendan McDonough and is going with the same sort of ‘blond-hair buzz cut’.
But at the EPSY awards… the media freaked out because it’s the first time they’ve seen Miles Teller with his ‘blond hair’… and they were all accusing him of trying to imitate Eminem, or look like him.
Anyway… here is probably the only glimpse prior to the movie coming out of what Miles Teller’s imitation of Brendan McDonough actually LOOKS like…
http://www.esquire.com/style/news/a46709/miles-teller-hair/
**
** BARNBURNER
Looks like this ‘Granite Mountain’ movie thing is including the obligatory “Barn Burning + Frightened Horses” that one would expect in a ‘Fire’ movie.
Executive Producer Ellen Schwartz has posted TWO photos to her PUBLIC Instagram account taken on the ‘set’ of the ‘movie’.
One is a ‘barn’ engulfed in flames, and the other is a the standard ‘Frightened/Rearing’ horse.
Here is the ‘Barn Burning’…
https://www.instagram.com/p/BHuaXTvgX1G/
And here is the ‘Frightened/Rearing horse’…
NOTE: There is no actual FLAME seen near the horse in this photo as it is ‘rearing up’ ( under what appears to be the control of a ‘trainer’? I certainly hope so )… but there is plenty of SMOKE…
https://www.instagram.com/p/BHuiUXmgDDp/?taken-by=ellenhschwartz
I guess we can expect the following obligatory blurb as the credits roll… but perhaps with a ‘twist’ this time?…
“No animals were harmed during the making of this picture… and just as a precaution… they were all treated with EMDR ( Eye Movement Desensitization and Reprocessing ) therapy afterwards just in case any of them were suffering from any PTSD. They all appear to be just fine.”
Now this….“No animals were harmed during the making of this picture… and just as a precaution… they were all treated with EMDR ( Eye Movement Desensitization and Reprocessing ) therapy afterwards just in case any of them were suffering from any PTSD. They all appear to be just fine.”
is a HOOT!
Although I like it better when “the obligatory “Barn Burning + Frightened Horses” that one would expect in a ‘Fire’ movie” happens at night…it is always so much more DRAMATIC!
On the discussion of good men– no one is throwing stones in a glass house.
On that mountain at the very spot those men descended toward the Helms bombproof safety zone, Joy and I did argue as did Marsh and Steed as to the directions to take. I was adamant not to drop down into that basin, Joy was adamant to drop down. The difference there was Joy was not wanting to go up the mountain and that hike through the basin was a shorter and direct route back to Yarnell. Also we are both adult people and I am not her boss, nor is she mine. Marsh had power over Steed, but I had none over Joy and her decision. Yet by the time I topped the mountain enough sense came into me to return and demand she follow me out in a direction away from the fire. See Joy and I had hiked from the MVD in Prescott all the way to Wilhoit until her husband got off work and picked us up about about 2AM. Then we hiked Saturday toward the fire line until evening when she saw a black bear and decided we ought to turn back. Then Sunday we took that long route through the brush and heat of the day–so she was definitely tired. I was as well–but Joy is a city gal and despite her hiking in the Desert, she does not know danger when she should.
I doubt I would have been charged with negligence for not going back, but if I had not I am certain she would not have made it out her way in time. She, however did not know the danger of going toward a reversible fire that she believed would only continue toward Peeples Valley and that despite my telling her that the thunder storms were a bad omen and there would be no escape if it changed and we were caught in that basin. Despite her stubbornness, I could not imagine living with the guilt of not going back to once again trying to drag her out. She weighs in at over 200 and me at 140–so not an easy chore. Fortunately she was there with sore and swollen feet and her boots off, still under that small pinon tree. She had been there 40 minutes when I got back and likely would have been there until the GMHS headed back toward her on the two track.
Does that make me a hero? Hell no. In fact I had some anger to the fact that I had to go back and risk the chance that the fire would change and I had lost that time putting myself more at risk then back track up the mountain again in the 100 degree plus day.
The sad thing here is that Marsh and Steed knew they were risking their men and those men were under their command. Joy was not under my command, yet I could have made the mistake of leaving her to her own peril. When I decease, which doctors say should be by this coming November, I certainly want to meet Marsh and Steed on the other side to find out why they risked their mens lives for structure protection.
The tragedy of the Yarnell Hill Fire movie is that the real story will not be told. When we passed a prison crew in orange jump suits picking up trash along the highway, there were two of the men ahead of the main group. I told Joy there is Marsh and Steed. That is were they would be for their negligence in protecting the lives of the 17 young men under their command that they caused the deaths of. There are a few others that are above Marsh and Steed that would be joining the crew as well. Instead we see Marsh’s widow and others touting them as heroes and attempting to make them out as wonderful examples of the wild land fire fighting profession and its management. Nothing could be so far from the truth.
Yesterday Joy and I went to see if we would take down a tower for the lumber. In the photos it looked good, but once there you could see that it was rotted badly–two platforms of the 40 foot high structure were rotted so badly that the 2×6 planks had partially falled out so much that about half the platforms were missing. You could only walk on the outer rim of edge wise 4×8 lumber that rimmed the platform on top. The top platform was about 10’x10′ and the lower platform about 20×20 ft. with a rotted stairway up to it. Of the four supporting logs, one had rotted so that it had to be reinforced with steel straps and two by sixes and meantime another had rotted almost in two. A good wind would have blown it over into his home or one of the structures on either side.
The thing was it certainly was not worth the rotted lumber for the job of removing it. Joy learned that five people had refused to remove it and a professional crew saw it as too dangerous and too near the $350,000 home, a dog kennel and a sheds on both sided of this thing that would sustain damage if it fell wrong. But we noticed he had two young kids and he is a hero in his Army Sergeant profession of training German Shepherds for the military. Those kids were bound to get onto to that structure and fall through either platform or off that rickety ladder that lead to the top. He said lightening had struck the tower before, why the reinforced leg on one side, but I noticed another supporting timber had pretty well rotted as well.
One thing about much of Arizona pine logs is that they don’t get enough moisture during growth and even the new lumber of this area is brittle. It does not stand weather long either and is prone to rot quickly–you are better off with Oregon or northern pine if you need strength and longevity.
So seeing what this man does and that he himself would not be a good candidate to do this job. I thought what the hell, I have the experience and can drop that tower–and if I were ten years younger in twice the time–this is what Joy calls a God thing to do–and maybe it is. Perhaps Joy will post pictures of the tower and this old guy up near the top with chain saw hanging off with one hand and the other topping the tower so I can fall it in pieces so that his home and sheds and kennel were not damaged. I have never liked heights, but never thought much of dropping down mine shafts–this reminded me of an old mine hoist structure.
The point is the pro was right in not risking his men or those structures to do that job. He would have had to do it himself to avoid risking others, something he apparently did not want to do. So up there, I felt like Gary must have felt acting like Evil Kanevil. But I definitely had good reason to fall that tower seeing those little kids involved and knowing this guy with a cookie cutter Poulan chain saw had no clue.
That man came out and watched and his two young ones with him and I was assured they kept well back as did I have to make sure Joy did as well. The risk was my own, had I allowed Joy to get hurt or that man or those kids then I should have deserved an orange jump suit as well. It is only common sense to take care of the safety of persons involved in a dangerous situation — to not do so then your negligence that injures or kills others is criminal even if your intentions were honorable.
Will this movie teach that lesson and make managers of wild land fire fighters careful of their subordinate’s lives?
The Tower and the man and wonderful children– He left during the job, But when he returned, he must have wondered and been relieved at seeing that the rotted tower was gone–it is still loaded on my old 73 Chevy and trailer behind–not very good firewood but good starter wood–but Joy says about four pieces of good barnwood and she is going to have me cut four strips out of one to send to her mom back east. He mom makes unique picture frames and Joy has some family photos she wants framed that way.
plus she wants to make a frame for this family as a memento since that tower was there for many decades. Joy said she will email the InvestigativeMedia crew the photos.
Charlie-
it was also an enlightenment day too for Kyle-
not because of us following through to break the tower down but because
I said something to him private and he went in his home called his mother and said his mother has too had the same message I saw—and to confirm the private message- the horse I spoke to Kyle about; when he was young his father use to ride horses so it meant something to his family when I mentioned the horse and no way I could know that…I said I did not mention it to be creepy or freaky but this man Donald just wanted the message to be shown and I almost kept quiet. I explained to Kyle that this death was sudden and fast and he was too young and the rest was private to Kyle…he looked at me like no one could know how his dad died but he died of a sudden stroke and that was it- that is how life can change oh so quick like the blinking of an eye just like 19 men dying and the lives around them forever changed—so part of my mother’s side genetics surfaced for me today as the doc said he has to do a hida on me in addition to the other tests to rule out or rule in the gall bladder- My insurance did not cover this special prescription he gave me and I have to take it before the test and $60 but my mom said that is nothing…some of her meds are into the hundreds and I told her I am not a pharmaceutical gal so ain’t there another way—of course “ain’t” bothers some like I am uneducated but it stuck to me from my Mississippi visiting days- that and “reckon”…the photos of that tower were sent to the IM crew- check your inboxes. I need to figure my schedule out so no IM reading for me today…too many doctors- one here and another there just seems like a bullshit to me but I am “listening” and it is not too easy for me to pay for this stuff to take before tests—I can see Metamucil or electrolytes…good night…I told them today from MY point of view I can’t be too bad if it is an appt here and there setup vs just getting it handled…has anyone had to deal with this route due to type of insurance? Now I do wish the good old days were back when insurance was different…OBAMADONTCARE is not for me…I want to go in and get it done when I finally surrender to that area so it is hard to grasp—go here and there and follow ups and etc…
Charlie,
You posted: “The tragedy of the Yarnell Hill Fire movie is that the real story will not be told. …. Instead [of Marsh and Steed being held accountable for negligence in the deaths of 17 men’ we see Marsh’s widow and others touting them as heroes and attempting to make them out as wonderful examples of the wild land fire fighting profession and its management. Nothing could be so far from the truth.”
Thanks for saying what needs to be said.
Even recently… on the THIRD anniversary…. some major media outlets were actually saying things like “…and the fire overtook them where they were WORKING”… or… “…the Hotshots had been WORKING on the western part of the fire when the wind-driven fire surrounded them and cut off their escape routes”.
A total and complete inability to accept the FACT that the only reason they were in a place where they would have ‘no escape’ and be ‘burned to death’ is because they DECIDED ( themselves ) to BE there.
They were not WORKING that ‘area’ where they burned to death.
They were simply MOVING from where they were SAFE… to where they were NOT SAFE…. and they paid the ultimate price for that risky/bad decision.
But just like Mike Dudley and the SAIT didn’t want to ‘go there’ with regards to any testimony about PRIOR bad decision making on the part of this organization and its leadership… the MEDIA itself still doesn’t want to ‘go there’ with regards to any possible scenario other than… “The big bad fire just came and got them”.
It’s really quite astounding what is ( and always has been ) going on with this ‘story’… and people’s inability to even be interested in ‘the truth’.
It is ( and always has been ) telling us a LOT about OURSELVES… and how we somehow CLING to ‘hero worship’ and the lengths some people in the ‘hero business’ will go to just to keep ‘butts in the seats’.
True statements here from WTKTT. WTKTT is a hero of mine along with Gary, Bob, RTS and others here-all honorable people willing to hold to the truth in this horrible situation that occurred because of failure to respect the laws of nature and rules of safety. Had persons of experience been honest from the beginning rather than trying to protect reputations this web site would have never been necessary. The nature of lies is their down the line and sadly it involves more wild land fire fighter lives. All the attempts to paint this thing as an accident only adds to the danger of wild land fire fighting. Lives are worth the truth here.
**
** THE ‘BLUE RIVER’ HOTSHOTS…
**
** …AND MORE ‘STUPID HOTSHOT PET TRICKS’…
Well… this ‘Granite Mountain’ movie thing keeps ‘announcing’ more and more ‘actors’ signing onto the thing… and the OFFICIAL IMDB page is now saying they have cast a semi-famous Latino actor named ‘Rene Herrera’ to play the Superintendent of the “Blue River Hotshots” ( no typo there )…
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt3829920/fullcredits?ref_=tt_cl_sm#cast
I’m actually suddenly quite encouraged by this OFFICIAL ‘announcement’.
It actually means the people doing this movie thing have, apparently, researched it SO well that they have found a previously unknown group of Type 1 Hotshots who were actually working the Yarnell Hill Fire.
Maybe we all really WILL learning something about the Yarnell Hill Fire by seeing this movie after all.
And following the already-released video of actor Geoff Stultz and other actors playing ‘Granite Mountain Hotshots’ puking their socks off after accepting the self-waterboarding 4-4-40 ‘challenge’… I guess it was inevitable that we now have more ‘video’ from the movie set of more classic ‘stupid Hotshot Pet Tricks’.
Here is former Granite Mountain Hotshot turned ACTOR ( playing his deceased old-friend Garret Zuppiger ) opening beer bottles on the movie set with his chainsaw…
https://www.instagram.com/p/BGxy9Tvjoh4/?taken-by=dylzenvision
Correction for above.
Latino actor ‘Rene Herrera’ is NOT being officially listed as playing the ‘Superintendent’ of the ‘Blue River Hotshots’.
He is being officially ‘announced’ as playing just the ‘Captain’ of the ‘Blue River Hotshots’.
And as for the ‘Opening bottles with a chainsaw’ trick…
The WORLD RECORD is actually 23 bottles opened in 60 seconds.
Guinness World Records
http://www.guinnessworldrecords.com/world-records/89681-most-beer-bottles-opened-by-chainsaw-in-one-minute
——————————————————————————–
The most beer bottles opened by chainsaw in one minute is 23 and was achieved by Andrew Younghusband (Canada) on the set of “Tougher Than It Looks”, in Toronto, Ontario, Canada, on 25 April 2016.
Andrew broke the record on his FIRST attempt.
—————————————————————————
Yes… his LAST NAME really is “Younghusband” ( all one word ).
Can’t make this stuff up.
And here is a VIDEO of the previous world record holder from 2014.
The reason he didn’t reach 23 is because he chipped the glass on some of the bottles as he was opening them with his chainsaw… so in official ‘world record’ circles… that ‘disqualifies’ those bottles.
SIDENOTE: Yes… this really is dangerous… and if you don’t use eye protection when doing it ( Brandon Bunch himself was NOT )… then you are pretty much an idiot.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DN_-haAMPT4
** FIVE BOTTLES AT ONCE!
Now HERE is something else that SHOULD ( also ) be in the “Guinness Book of World Records”.
Some dude posting a public YouTube video of him opening FIVE BOTTLES AT ONCE with his Chainsaw.
That’s right… FIVE BOTTLES AT THE SAME MOMENT!
Apparently, the only reason he didn’t go for a full SIX-PACK was because the dinky bar on the chainsaw he was using just wasn’t LONG enough…
You really should watch this.
Makes Brandon Bunch look like a rank amateur with HIS one-at-a-time ‘movie set’ trick…
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AOda_e6EtHs
Correction for above.
Latino actor ‘Rene Herrera’ is NOT being officially listed as playing the ‘Superintendent’ of the ‘Blue River Hotshots’.
He is being officially ‘announced’ as playing just the ‘Captain’ of the ‘Blue River Hotshots’.
And as for the ‘Opening bottles with a chainsaw’ trick…
The WORLD RECORD is actually 23 bottles opened in 60 seconds.
Guinness World Records
http://www.guinnessworldrecords.com/world-records/89681-most-beer-bottles-opened-by-chainsaw-in-one-minute
——————————————————————————–
The most beer bottles opened by chainsaw in one minute is 23 and was achieved by Andrew Younghusband (Canada) on the set of “Tougher Than It Looks”, in Toronto, Ontario, Canada, on 25 April 2016.
Andrew broke the record on his FIRST attempt.
—————————————————————————
Yes… his LAST NAME really is “Younghusband” ( all one word ).
Can’t make this stuff up.
And here is a VIDEO of the previous world record holder from 2014.
The reason he didn’t reach 23 is because he chipped the glass on some of the bottles as he was opening them with his chainsaw… so in official ‘world record’ circles… that ‘disqualifies’ those bottles.
SIDENOTE: Yes… this really is dangerous… and if you don’t use eye protection when doing it ( Brandon Bunch himself was NOT )… then you are pretty much an idiot.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DN_-haAMPT4
** FIVE BOTTLES AT ONCE!
Now HERE is something else that SHOULD ( also ) be in the “Guinness Book of World Records”.
Some dude posting a public YouTube video of him opening FIVE BOTTLES AT ONCE with his Chainsaw.
That’s right… FIVE BOTTLES AT THE SAME MOMENT!
Apparently, the only reason he didn’t go for a full SIX-PACK was because the dinky bar on the chainsaw he was using just wasn’t LONG enough…
You really should watch this.
Makes Brandon Bunch look like a rank amateur with HIS one-at-a-time ‘movie set’ trick…
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AOda_e6EtHs
Followup to the post above…
Here is former Granite Mountain Hotshot turned ACTOR ( playing his deceased old-friend Garret Zuppiger ) opening beer bottles on the movie set with his chainsaw…
https://www.instagram.com/p/BGxy9Tvjoh4/?taken-by=dylzenvision
Yes… that really is one of the ACTUAL ( original ) Granite Mountain Crew Carriers seen there in the background while former GM Hotshot turned ACTOR Brandon Bunch is opening the beer bottle with his chainsaw there on the ‘set’ of this movie thing.
The movie people have rented the ACTUAL ( original ) Granite Mountain vehicles from the City of Prescott for $45 a day per vehicle.
WTKTT,
What do you mean by this statement? What “previously unknown group of Type 1 Hotshots who were actually working the Yarnell Hill Fire” are you specifically referring to?
“It actually means the people doing this movie thing have, apparently, researched it SO well that they have found a previously unknown group of Type 1 Hotshots who were actually working the Yarnell Hill Fire.”
That was total sarcasm. Sorry you missed it.
I was just facetiously ‘complimenting’ the movie people on apparently researching the Yarnell Fire so well that they somehow ‘found’ another group of Hotshots called the “Blue River Hotshots”… in ADDITION to the group we KNOW was there… “the Blue RIDGE Hotshots”.
At the time I typed that ‘sarcasm’… I thought we were looking at just some massive TYPO fuck-up on the part of these ‘movie people’.
As it turns out… it is neither a ‘type’ nor a ‘fuck-up’.
They really ARE changing the name of the “Blue Ridge Hotshots” to the “Blue River Hotshots” just for this ‘movie’ thing… and they have even ‘invented’ a FAKE LOGO for their “Blue River Hotshots” that uses pretty much the same COLORS as the Granite Mountain Logo… but shows some ‘Salmon’ jumping out of some cartoonish ‘river’.
That means they either DECIDED to NOT mention the REAL organization known as the “Blue Ridge Hotshots”… *OR*…. the were FORCED to change the name because the US Forestry service and/or the Blue Ridge Hotshots organization REFUSED PERMISSION for that ‘brand name’ to be used in their little ‘movie’.
See the following ‘new’ post up above about this… with a link to a PHOTO of the actual ‘Blue Helmets’ they are actually using for this ‘made up’ group of Hotshots they are calling the “Blue River Hotshots’…
http://www.investigativemedia.com/please-begin-yarnell-hill-fire-chapter-xxii-here/#comment-342038
Makes you wonder…
If they ( the movie people ) are either DECIDING or being FORCED to change the name of an organization directly involved in a National Historic Tragedy from “The Blue RIDGE Hotshots” to “The Blue RIVER Hotshots”… then as they film the scene where Latino actor Rene Herrera rescues actor Miles Teller ( Brendan McDonough ) from the lookout mound… are they going to change actor Rene Herrera’s character name from “Brian Frisby” to “Bernie Farsby”?
Followup….
It’s also a damn shame that the people doing this ‘movie’ that will ( perhaps in record time ) just up there in that cardboard bin of $2 dollar DVDs near the Wal-Mart cash registers either felt the need and/or were FORCED to ‘change the name’ of the OTHER group of Type 1 Hotshots who were THERE in Yarnell that historic day.
Brian Frisby’s ACCIDENTAL ‘saving’ of Brendan McDonough was one of the ONLY ‘good’ things that happened that day… and now the movie-going public will forever not even know his name or the ACTUAL name of the Type 1 IHC organization that he ran.
If the ‘movie’ people really WANTED to use ‘real names’ here ( as they are doing with everyone and everything associated with the Granite Mountain organization )… but were FORCED to ‘change all the names’ by the US Forestry Service… then you have to wonder if Brian Frisby and Trueheart Brown ever had anything to say about it.
Could it be that Frisby and Brown were just told to continue to “Shut The Fuck Up” and just “go along” with US Forestry decisions… as has been the case all along with them ( and the rest of the ‘Blue Ridge Hotshots’ )?
Trueheart Brown left the ‘Blue Ridge Hotshots’ organization some time ago… but he is still a USFS employee working on another US Forest facility in Arizona.
I just wonder how Brian Frisby is going to ( ultimately ) feel about everyone who sees the movie just believing that someone with some name like “Bernie Farsby” with the “Blue RIVER Hotshots” is the one who actually saved Brendan McDonough’s life that day?
Or maybe it’s the other way around.
Maybe Frisby and Brown ( and ALL the other Blue Ridge Hotshots ) are still so ‘afraid’ of being generally known as having anything to do with this National Historic Tragedy that THEY are the ones who refused to allow their ‘names’ to be used in the film?
Dunno. All I know is… there is a ‘story’ there about this ‘choice’ alone that needs to come out sooner or later.
Whoops. TYPO up above.
I MEANT to say…
It’s also a damn shame that the people doing this ‘movie’ that will ( perhaps in record time ) just END UP there in that cardboard bin of $2 dollar DVDs near the Wal-Mart cash registers either felt the need and/or were FORCED to ‘change the name’ of the OTHER group of Type 1 Hotshots who were THERE in Yarnell that historic day.
What I don’t understand is why Amanda, Willis, Dudley, and a bunch of their cronies are not the real actors. They have done such a good job in their acting and changing the truth that I know I am certain they could challenge the best among the actors mentioned.
I think I would exclude Donut–too much of a whiner to be an actor–but only my opinion.
Bringing this to the top for Joy
According to what the Doctors told my Nephew and his Wife they cant start any CF treatment until a child is 12. Don’t know why.
The treatment is also $25,000 a week for 6 months. Medicaid won’t cover it so its one of those only the rich cures. The cancer changed the whole game the Dr. said. She is at the children’s Hospital in San Francisco which is a top rated place. This new Doctor is pulling some strings to get to some new treatments once she is past the Cancer treatment Chemo and all another 3 months.
She has a long ways to go. A 7 year old sits there in bed and tells her mom and dad and Grandma that she knows she is safe because she has Guarding Angels that are with her all the time and talk to her. Maybe so?????????????????????
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Just woke up. I have to get up at 2:15 but quickly answer you. Actually what she sees is real… I know certain loved ones have not liked some areas I have seen but Grant confirmed what I too have witnessed is real even Sinclair…there is much realness to what she sees…it’s because our purity can see beyond…if I saw her I would share to her about a little girl and her family I got to know before she was shown the world and became a famous child prodigy..have her look up Akiane and highly recommend her book to her and not only was her family athiest non believers when Akiane saw things like your niece can and Me too and Akiane painted what she saw…the other day I spent time with RTS and he did not even catch things only he knows and not the world but yes I too have these areas foreign to me but real…have her ask Him if he has any gifts she can share about her angels.. May it be by voice or art or poetry but take a shot and if nothing do not be discouraged because in its moment it happens and every moment the place poison in her…move move move even if bed bound…and more water…and hold steady to the Word she is hearing from her angels…its real…and when people look at ya in oh how cute…its actually not always so cute and unicorn life-like…I was told long ago let my body just rest but walk always but I put on hold my adrenaline junkie ways and weight poured on me and it was just recently I was told in eighteen months I will be thin again and do not take the meds and listen to what they plan to do for surgery and we will decide from that point if I do or not…I think I’m ready with all the pressurized pain month after month but was told hold on…it will be fine…
Back to sleep but sounds great where she is at…good to hear..zzz
RTS-
on topic of sharing your Faith-
everyone has a right to be who they are but in a very undisciplined unstructured really cultured world; it would be nice for the healthy-minded to do less talking and judging and more quiet guidance and prayers for others having the disconnect to Him vs saying it to them—-now with that being said on Sunday January 4th 2015 I was up in Yarnell doing defensible space when my phone alerted me my perimeter cameras at home went off and I was like YCSO??? why YCSO? I call YCSO and they said they stopped by to serve me papers (Marsh case) so I was like if they are in no hurry can I finish up what I am doing than meet them at my home after 3pm…I then set up all my cameras to video this moment of being served and as I was doing that in crunch time I got a what you call WRONG NUMBER call- the old man said is so and so there & I told him wrong number but I STOPPED everything I was doing not because I wanted to do that but God guides me and I turned my pc on and looked up the name—I then went and called around to folks I know and said the almost 100 year old man was put into a nursing home after his wife died and then I called nursing home and the lady said that man has on paper NO VISITORS or INCOMING INFORMATION and I asked her if she would just slip that man’s name and I will call back in a few hours because I was awaiting my company (YCSO was the company) and a few hours later she said YES THE MAN LIT UP WHEN SHE MENTIONED HIS NAME…I called the old man back and told him update where his pal was and he was delighted- they were old friends and good pals/war buddies and he thought he was killed in war and he dreamnt he was alive and called last known number someone gave him and he asked my why I did all that for him and I told him it was the right thing to do and he said he was 97 y.o. and would never knew how to do all that- next day I got call from the woman of the husband that called me and thanked me alot for taking the time for her husband. It meant the world to them and if there was any money or gift they can offer and I said no, that was God not me. I explained to her at the moment he called I was tied up with deep uncertainty & anxiety that a woman felt so deep to consider me a threat in any fashion that I was being served for an injunction against harassment & best I ever been is emotional/irrational at little moment times not alot or daily and I thought it was human if broken and not healthy minded to have those moments from me my entire life when up against a wall with certain folks of YCSO breathing down my ass and Chief Ben Palm sharing to someone that one of his own firefighters and one old one text me “the chief is trying to get you arrested” and it went on for months so it grew old and I made out of frustration a comment BUT NEVER thought it would publicly mar my perfect record— and 8 days later the couple re-called me and thanked me again for that very very special tear jerking deeply emotional time because by the time they arrived he died in his friends arms that afternoon. I told her sometimes in the fast pace world of ME mentalities we do not take the time to listen to Him or we all opt to pick our times and actions but it was good to know I brought two military brothers back together—the other guy his wife had died and he went into a deep trance the staff said until this friend came and he lit up like nothing they ever saw and I even had the staff call and thank me for giving them that special moment to see because he had been there for years as a stubborn locked up man but God heals at the times needed…so always think WRONG NUMBER could change a person’s life like recently I was making a call for Bill G on air tankers and I dialed wrong number and the person ends up being a person who is very much into keeping it simple…it was a much needed time for them too but in it I gave that WRONG NUMBER at first Bill G and a whole thing came out of that wrong number too- small tiny world…I occasionally have strange times like that…but in all that RTS…people are gonna share…but you told Gary that these folks did not do preaching and again its not what we heard first hand—and that was all I wrote—you came back with the “cheese and cracker” stuff and the G & D stuff…where did that come from because I did not talk about that and yet you directed it to me…because people say that does not mean a thing to me…than back to human factors I have seen THE TOP religious men say stuff like that and I thought if they are capable than anyone is because it a human choice to the situation at hand and HOW one deals with stress…you ever see yourself handle stress and you pat your back but another time you react so unlike yourself…it is called being human in a LAW RESTRICTED WORLD might get you in court or jail due to the broken systems all around us even the churches…I never SPOKE UP in my case to the judge asking for change of venue to be disrespectful it was just I never saw HOW a comment and Willis hearsay could lead to a mark on my record but not one empathetic moment from judge for the documented mess I saw for months—I mean countless hours of YCSO and stuff…it was an unfair moment to my life but I am at peace with it and glad nowadays Gary removed it off his site but like I said what good can come from THE BIG LIE posted right under their photo- It just came off like whoah…now for me to say that and I saw what I seen in that journey- wouldn’t I be one to cheer that kind of stuff on—nah because we all face grief and hard moments and life is what it is…and for that life goes on…now RTS have a great day 🙂 I answered ya..
by the way that is the ninth time I hooked up old war buddies in my life time- three by wrong numbers—
Joy, thanks for sharing all that you posted above. Definitely ‘a God thing’ is what I call those, and several times with you too.
You posted: “you came back with the “cheese and cracker” stuff and the G & D stuff…where did that come from because I did not talk about that and yet you directed it to me…because people say that does not mean a thing to me.”
It was to make a point about free speech and the hypocrisy of those people that are ‘offended’ by people talking about God or using Jesus’ name or whatever.
Forgive me for being unclear when I posted that.
RTS— or Gary—
this man Roy Hall who was on the YHF
was he ever a sheriff in NM?
someone I know grew up with a Roy Hall who then went on to be a NM Sheriff- wondered if it was the same
I don’t think so, as far as I know, all of his adult life was spent with USFS and I think it was all on the Apache Sitgreaves National Forest out of Springerville AZ, but I might be wrong.
ok. than I have met him by Greer- thought so— he has a bunch of kids— he was a nice man if same guy…