Chapter I, Chapter II, Chapter II supplement, Chapter III, Chapter IV, Chapter V, Chapter VI, Chapter VII, Chapter VIII , Chapter IX, Chapter X, Chapter XI, Chapter XII , Chapter XIII, Chapter XIV, Chapter XV, Chapter XVI, Chapter XVII, Chapter XVIII, Chapter XIX, Chapter XX, Chapter XXI, Chapter XXII and Chapter XXIII.
© Copyright 2016 John Dougherty, All rights Reserved. Written For: Investigative MEDIA
**
** NEW ‘CHAPTER 25’ HAS BEEN STARTED…
Thanks again to John Dougherty and InvestigativeMEDIA for allowing this important
discussion to continue.
Here is a direct ‘jumplink’ to the newest ‘Chapter’ of this ongoing discussion…
http://www.investigativemedia.com/please-begin-yarnell-hill-fire-chapter-xxv-here/
BRING IT UP TO THE TOP WOOD
Woodsman says
JANUARY 7, 2017 AT 12:52 AM
RTS,
Willis told you that he did not identify the tennis court as a safety zone for those under his command at the YH fire, according to you. Did he claim it was a ‘deployment zone’ instead of a safety zone? You know, I’m making a connection here with the mindset and training with the wildland program at the Prescott FD with regards to shelters and ‘deployment zones.’ I know me and you are on the same page when it comes to the shelters, pre-planned ‘deployment zones’ (self-fulfilling prophecy?,) GM’s totally inadequate situation/area they attempted to deploy shelters, etc. Shed some light here.
Thanks!
Wood
Here is the death watch–the guinea pig review. Over two hundred showed up at Congress for the funeral services of Robert Carl Moralez, Sr. as I read his obituary in the Wickenburg Sun, January 4, 2017 issue. Robert Moralez, who just turned 50 on November 14 is now dead from cardiac arrest due to bilateral blood clots in his lungs. We were acquainted with Robert since his ranch was in the Stanton Area and he lived downrange from the Tenderfoot fire and as well received good doses of smoke from the Yarnell incident. We wonder how many more deaths of good people will be needed to attract the attention of important citizen support of health issues concerning contaminants in our environment. Specifically we are concerned about inhaling the smoke laden with ammonium and other chemicals vaporized by the intense wildfires and the agent orange look alike retardant.
This area including Yarnell, Stanton, Peeples Valley, Congress and even Wickenburg received intense smoke so that too many suffered its intense effects. I believe Mr. Morales was another victim of the retardant gassing of the middle aged and the elderly, those most susceptible to the gassing effects. Old Adolph is rolling in his grave knowing how many elderly are dying from this type gassing and although his Zyclon B was quicker, the retardant gassing is more subtle and kept under trade secret, while all these deaths are attributed to being elderly. Certainly being elderly is a death warrant against the effects of this retardant gassing.
Stanton is approximately 5 miles SE of Yarnell and was about 3 miles downwind of the Tenderfoot Fire but also received ample doses of the gasses off the Yarnell Fire. We hope WHO or EPA will start taking notice–surely a few of them, their associates or their relatives read these posts on Investigative Media.
But all has been quiet on the issue of the deadly effects of the Agent Orange look alike retardant contamination and its especially devastating effects on the elderly. It is a situation that because the effects are not quickly noticed or reported that the FS continues to believe this chemical contamination of our ground, air and waters is overlooked. You would think that knowing that cyanide and cyanide gases are produced by pouring ammonium sulphates and phosphates upon burning embers. Manzanita is among the hottest fires obtainable in wild fires–especially in the dehydrated states we see in this area. I see where it easily melts lead and aluminum cans–plenty of heat with the carbon to produce the cyanide and gases of the same mixed with what other chemicals we do not publicly know because they are trade secrets. The only thing not secret is the amount of deaths this has caused –proven here in this area where hundreds of thousands of gallons of the agent orange look alike poison has been used in wild land fire fighting.
Carry on if you are able.
My heart goes out to all that were affected by the passing of Robert…
Cindy…David,,,and their son who is a YCSO sheriff who was on YHF 2013 (http://www.investigativemedia.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/12/13-021744-Yarnell-Hill-Case-Rpt.pdf)—>>> I left you message and please if there is anything I can do…I think it is important to look into this…Last I saw Robert he looked not well and he thought it was because he cut his hair off and it was a new look and I was so use to seeing him with long grey curls…I hope the family does not lay closure on Robert waited too long (look into it) like some folks do in this modern medical world…I am one…Brenda and Angel: I am so very sorry for your loss. Bobbette, Levi and girls- and the woman who saved my life Robert’s sister Loretta Lynn (who lost her son h t t p : / /www.wickenburgfuneralhome.c o m /memsol.cgi?user_id=1441240 )…Jack and Kimmy who boards Sonny’s horse and burros. And everyone I am missing to name…sorry for that too. As the desert walker where I traversed from Congress to surrounding towns I often went through the Moralez ranch and I enjoy Kimmy bunches…((((((hugs to you Kimmy))))) When I saw Robert in the desert …he towered over everyone like a giant saggy arrow…I mean saguaro…this is Robert’s dad—Angel:
h t t p :/ /ronbennett.photoshelter.c o m/image/I0000V0x7EI.bDtc
yes they might look familiar,,,the family was on dirty jobs: h t t p :/ /profoundlydisconnected.c o m/a-prick-in-congress/
There is young kids involved so I ask the world to help in donating at this link even if it is five bucks:
https://www.gofundme.com/robert-moralez-and-family
(Joy Collura 11 mins ago Robert: the last I saw you we talked on how I felt you were not well and you said maybe it was the hair and I saw it differently but you and I are stubborn. I got to see you time to time and you always towered me like a larger than life saguaro..to me you were fearless..a powerhouse..strong…and you had the life…the most beautiful wife and kids…some of your stories were intense and clever and some held a sting…and I am donating all I can for today because I know with all my being you are very well loved by family and friends and we want your kids to know we are here for them during the sad sad loss of you. Too young. Actually I am numb and a loss for words…yes me the one who rambles. I think its not cool. I am gonna miss seeing ya on the trails…sending my condolences to you Bobbette and Levi and girls…Angel and Brenda and Jimmy and Jack and Dave and Cindy and Daniel and my lifesaver Loretta Lynn…God be with you all…)
My husband called me and I went to Congress to work on a matter and I saw alot of cars and people and I was grumpy frumpy today and I thought maybe I will go see after I handle matter and when done I saw alot of people still but Sonny had his stuff he wanted so I thought who knows why the people than I gave the Wickenburg Sun to Sonny and there it stated it and I called around and then I knew where they were…the funeral…I am so sorry I missed the memorial but I hope one of you on IM can donate at least five bucks…
when you click on the gofundme link
see how small the world is
Kevin and Amber Grantham donated alot …A Grantham…(Sherrick is the one named in the YCSO report on Tenderfoot fire as the “lead” for arson…yes he is a Grantham…and no he was in Buckeye and the YCSO report is false leading…Kevin is about 4 years younger then me and Amber is about 8 yrs younger…now my bible study pal Lois told me Ellen Mae Oliver, age 97, passed away June 17 2015…which I know the Oliver family…and Amber is an Oliver and married a Grantham…my point here..these are families who have LONG roots to the community and are people who been to Congress for decades after decades after decades so why and how could YCSO allow it to stick and remain that Sherrick could even be the lead in any arson on any fire…down right wrong…YUK!
some people suck. ( http://www.wititudes.com/wp-content/uploads/trying-have-positive-thoughts-only-thing-positive-people-suck-ecard.jpg )
I hope one day the locals who were on the YHF make it right,,,and speak up
http://www.wickenburgfuneralhome.com/memsol.cgi?user_id=1898620
Some of the heroes are behind the scene–we know a few. These are the people close in with officials in high offices including Senators and Representatives in our government. These are people who also have connections with the FBI, CIA, EPA, WHO, Army, Department of Agriculture, and other agencies involved in citizen protection and safety.
All these agencies work in the interest of the American Citizen, his health, comfort, peace abiding, and general well being. There are many heroes among them and they are at our biding to do the jobs they do for us when things need to be done. They do listen to the common citizen-those like myself–but they are more inclined to listen to a Major, Colonel, Lieutenant, officer of the law, Judge, or other codified and recognized citizen leader among us. The weight of their concerns are much heavier than the ordinary citizen and when we address the wild fire situation, retardants, etc., even the lowest degree of wild land fire fighter weighs heavy in voicing his concerns with the situation such as we have been seeing around the country concerning wild land fire fighting.
I would say that Yarnell is not particularly an isolated situation—instead the practices we saw here with the methods that killed the 19 are likely too often common actions throughout the wild land fire fighting profession. What is going on appears to be situations generated without information going to crews. How else can you account for 19 men dropping off into a no win situation other than they believed the higher commands and went forward to act as though they could protect structures in such an intense wild land fire. Even a common citizen can ascertain that it was an impossible situation the same as standing before an atom bomb explosion at ground zero and expecting to survive would be. It is a horror scene in either situation–perhaps less in the atom bomb scene since all is vaporized and nothing remains of the mutilation that takes place. Only an Isis member could appreciate such horror.
What is going on that communications are such that a complete unit of 19 men looses communication during a 30 minute lapse? We have to know that is a lie since there was direct line of sight to the men on the two track from Yarnell, cell phones were plentiful, observation helicopters and planes were overhead, the men were in yellow suits seen for miles, tracking of cell phones by law enforcement is in seconds, and all sorts of bosses, fire fighting teams, radios, etc were availlable to keep track of the situation.
I have at times tried to exonerate Marsh and Steed from the death of their men. Partially because I believe they had orders and with the strict expectations of bosses in the fire fighting profession–with that I believe I am correct.
Another thing that I would say helps the case of Marsh and Steed is that I believe that there were burn outs, back burns and perhaps other agendas at work that Marsh and Steed were unaware of. If the videos that were hidden about the burn out at the Shrine that both Joy and I saw–as well as some others that did see the same video that later disappeared into the ether, then it would likely have been unknown to Marsh and Steed since it was in a canyon just above the Shrine and out of sight of their position on the two track. That is until the 45 mph winds that the Weatherman had warned the bosses would be headed their way. But the my word of the video by Joy and me and our hikes to make sure it was in the Shrine area and even the inspections in the Peeples Valley to see where the burn out was there–something not deleted–but what we needed to verify–and even wild land fire fighter words that they did see that Shrine video of a burn out has no weight since the video disappeared. It would take the expertise of the FBI to retrieve that video.
So if Marsh and Steed dropped their men down in the perilous situation under strict orders without the knowledge of a burn out then that too would mitigate their culpability in the crime of the killing of the 17 young heroes needlessly taken to their deaths.
Perhaps our new Presiden, who promised to prosecute Hillary for her felonies, will attend to looking into the deaths of the 19 and how the population of Yarnell and surrounding towns have suffered death and health problems due to the hundreds of thousands of gallons of retardant pollutants dropped in our back yards.
That is where the heroes who are incessantly working this disaster come in. They will be recognized for their efforts and deserve praise for their good works. Those living a lie and knowing the truth only bear illness to their psych and soul.
I was reading where Sheriff Arapaio had spent years investigating Obama’s birth certificate. He had nine points proving the document to be a fraudulent document–something made up to get Obama in office. I have never been a fan of Arapaio, but facts are facts–and yet the American public is willing to accept things without question. They believed Obama, not Arapaio and most were never willing to even look at the evidence Arapaio produced. We do live in a dummed down society.
About the Shrine video–a Mr. Brandon did say publicly according to very intelligent and competent sources who witnessed this–that he was in the Shrine area doing a burnout. The Chief of Peeples Valley fire department denied that he even knew Brandon and attested that Brandon did not even work for Peeples Valley. He should know since he said he has been there as Chief for 15 years. Joy has the conversation recorded. So where is the video now?
Reply to Woodsman post on January 7, 2017 at 12:52 am
>> Woodsman said…
>>
>> RTS,
>>
>> Willis told you that he did not identify the tennis court as a safety zone for those
>> under his command at the YH fire, according to you. Did he claim it was a
>> ‘deployment zone’ instead of a safety zone?
I don’t know what Willis actually ‘said’ to RTS, but when asked about the ‘Tennis Court’ by InvestigativeMEDIA reporter John Dougherty ( back in December of 2013 )… Willis responded ‘in writing’ ( via email ) that YES… he DID consider the ‘Tennis Court’ to at least have been a viable ‘Deployment Zone’ for all 31 ( THIRTY ONE ) firefighters working out at the Double-Bar-A Ranch on Sunday, June 30, 2013.
See the following ( longer ) post about that… including links to Willis’ actual ’email’ responses…
** WILLIS SAID ( IN WRITING ) THAT THE TENNIS COURT
** WAS A ‘DEPLOYMENT ZONE’.
http://www.investigativemedia.com/please-begin-yarnell-hill-fire-chapter-xxiv-here/#comment-469796
And just 23 days after those 31 firefighters working under Willis’ command at the Double-Bar-A Ranch *almost* had to test Willis’ ‘theory’ about the tennis court having been a viable ‘deployment zone’… Willis himself admitted he ( personally ) had no frickin’ idea even what the upper temperature limit(s) were for a standard Wildland Fire Shelter.
From the transcript of Willis’ July 23, 2013 press conference held out at the actual deployment site…
———————————————————————————————-
Reporter: Chief Willis… how hot would it had to have been for those shelters to breakdown? At what temperature does that start to happen?
Darrel Willis: I don’t know the facts on that.
———————————————————————————————-
WTKTT,
I guess I would place myself in the same category with Willis. I know that direct flame contact delaminates them and breaks them down very quickly. That’s all i need to know. I don’t care really because it doesn’t matter to me while on the firelines.
I am reminded of the exact temperature every time I teach a basic S-130 Wildland Firefighter course and I am REQUIRED to show the lame video.
I agree with the narrator when he states: “Fire shelters are responsible for saving hundreds of lives and preventing countless burn injuries every fire season.”
Well, I can confidently attest that ‘knowing, understanding, and following the Ten Standard Fire Orders and knowing, recognizing, and mitigating the 18 (19) Watch Out Situations are responsible for saving tens of thousands of WFF lives each and every fire season.
Hindsight bias? Nope, once again, tried-and-trued experience.
Reply to Robert the Second ( RTS ) post on January 7, 2017 at 10:14 pm
>> RTS said…
>>
>> I guess I would place myself in the same category with Willis.
>> I know that direct flame contact delaminates them and breaks them
>> down very quickly. That’s all i need to know.
Well… even that would have been a better ‘answer’ from someone who was being paid to call himself a ‘Wildland Division Chief’ than just “I don’t know”.
A better answer from Willis to the reporter’s question would have been something along the lines of…
“Despite the amateur-hour cartoon drawings you all have been seeing lately in the papers which are pretending to show how ‘fire shelters’ work… let me assure you that these ‘shelters’ were NEVER designed to withstand direct-flame contact, which is what happened here at THIS obviously inadequate deployment site. Next question.”
By the way… even the SAIT ( of which Willis was a contributor ) published the actual ‘numbers’.
From PDF page 93 of the original SAIR document…
—————————————————————————-
Temperatures:
The table below lists temperature data corresponding to the various post-incident material conditions, as reported by manufacturers and independent testing.
For human tenability, the National Research Council of Canada (NRCC) fire tests indicate that 300 Degrees Fahrenheit is the maximum survivable breathing air temperature, but only for short periods and in the absence of moisture.
xxx F = Degrees / Fahrenheit
Material – Temperature limit(s)
—————————————————-
Silica cloth – Brittle Estimated 2000 F
Quartz Thread – Brittle 2000 F
Fiberglass – Brittle 1350 to 1610 F
Aluminum Foil – Melt 1,220 F
Aramid Cloth – Char 824 F
Aramid Cloth– Stiff/Brittle 710 F
Glove Leather – Shrinkage 45% 600 F
Aramid Cloth Dye – Sublimation (Discolored) 400 F
Glove Leather – Shrinkage 10% 350 F
Helmet Polycarbonate – Softens 325 F
Human Tenability ( Surivability ) – 300 F
Foil/Shelter Cloth Bond – Delamination 500 F
—————————————————–
So according to this “manufacturer’s information” and “testing data” contained in the SAIR itself…
Standard Wildland Fire Shelters will begin to DELAMINATE at 500 Degrees F, just 200 degrees above what is considered the maximum ‘survivable’ temperature of 300 Degrees F.
So plan accordingly. The life you save will be your own ( and others ).
Perhaps this chart SHOULD be posted in the ‘day rooms’ for Hotshot Crews, right underneath the ( required ) PUBLIC workplace notification(s) that you can, in fact, ‘opt out’ of the infamous ‘exclusive remedy’ clause of worker’s compensation policies if you ‘elect’ to do so.
Thanks for that information WTKTT–Amanzing you should come up with information that every wild land fire fighter should know and be able to say in a heartbeat. It goes to show how ignorant too many bosses are about the safety equipment they have available.
When Gary indicated these blankets were turkey roasters, he was right on and the fact that 300F is the upper limit for survival breathing in a short span of time shows that the only alternative would have been to run to the boulders where there was about a football sized area and places to get below the ground where breathing temperatures would have been low enough to survive.
It shows how little the GMHS crew knew about survivability in the small area they cut out–there was absolutely no chance of surving in that dense manzanita and especially with piling more brush around their perimeter.
Good lord who trained those men– The next time we have a wild fire here let it be known to the crews that battle it how little chance it is to survive in those blankets in this type terrain and dense manzanita. Let them know how the many boulder patches are a safer bet to run to in this area and most of them have below ground protection with boulder cover above.
Note that Joy and Sonny watched Eric Marsh in that early morning cross the fire edge back and forth in the boulder area where it was burning. That should have been a light bulb in his head. The others watching out for the boulder areas had a hell of a lot better chance of survival by running there rather than remaining in a dense manzanita patch where those flimsy blankets will only withstand 500F and the air is definitely going to be above 300F at ground level.
It certainly stands to reason if the men are educated as to the poor safety of remaining or getting themselves trapped in dense manzanita they will realize the alternatives and run like hell to boulder areas or areas of sparse vegetation rather than commit suicide by remaining in such an area as the bosses of GMHS caused them to do.
Buiochas! WTKTT–suaitinseach eolas. (Thanks! WTKTT–remarkable information.)
A thought about contamination–It was well known that for years during the late 1800’s that Arsenic was used in wall paper to turn it green. Many of the English magnates were remaining wealthy by way of their mines and through production of the popular green colors that the dyes of Arsenic produced–that despite their knowledge of Arsenic being a deadly poison.
For years the English continued the use of Arsenic and it was never outlawed for its dye use although people started in time to realize that the arsenic in their wall paper, candle dyes, paper dyes, etc were causing illness and death. That shows how strong the denial can be toward contaminants dangerous to health can be. The propaganda the magnates uphel did help to add to the inertia of change and so illness from arsenic poison and the thousands of deaths it caused –sometimes immediate deaths were glossed over and laid to other causes. The same magnate mentality remains with us to this very day.
I can say that the two years I worked at the Noble Mine owned by the Canadian Vern Harkness and other parties left behind abundant tailings rich in Arsenic. The ore was Arseno-pyrite –and when powdered through the ball mill so that the gold, palladium, rhodium and other values were removed–the tailing were left to leach into ground waters. I wonder how much contamination went into the water system down creek where Pine Valley, CA is located since the 40 years ago when I worked there. You certainly would want to check your water source if you live in that area.
Then after the time of the Arsenic, we move into the times of lead and its many uses in paint. Kids have died from chewing paint and we know that if you were brought up within a ten mile radius of the El Paso Lead Smelter, your IQ will be ten points below the norm. Some I know would have qualified for the moron status (now with the new political polite and correct term mentally challenged status). But out of the area they did make it just above 70 and so those can certainly be thankful they are not so challenged.
The idea is that we are so very slow in recognizing the contaminants that are deadly. Generally since the beginning of industrialization, the magnates know what their contaminants are doing. yet the profits will continue to keep their eyes turned away from the damage they do to humanity.
They will say, but look what good the Arsenic is doing during that age, and during the lead age they will say look how much lead is serving us-especially lead bullets, solder on our pipes and paint on the walls.
Then we think how ignorant the people of the times were–Arsenic, Lead, prevalent use of Cyanide, Mercury cures and so on.
Now that we are so advanced in our scientific knowledge, we have n come to using and contaminating our environment with the most deadly element on the planet–namely Plutonium and with it the Uranium and all their isotopes. It takes only one atom of Plutonium to give you cancer–and cancer is rampant–but not only causes by the radioactive elements.
And we do see that science is turning a blind eye to the realities of the contamination produced by the retardant poisons and the poisons produced by dumping retardant on wild land fires. But despite all good intentions and some not so good intentions (greed contamination), the producers and spreaders of this pollution are causing the illness and deaths resulting from these chemicals. So we continue to live in another chapter of an era of the dummed down population while the continued use of these pollutants continue to do their harm.
Maybe old Jesus was correct in his idea that Money is a prime root of evil.
Or maybe the translators were off a bit about Jesus and should have said Greed is the greater root of evil.
Charlie,
You posted: “Maybe old Jesus was correct in his idea that Money is a prime root of evil.”
No maybe about it. Jesus is ALWAYS correct. It was you that was incorrect.
In 1 Timothy 6:10, The Bible says: “For the LOVE OF MONEY is the root of all evil; some people, eager for money, have wandered from the faith and pierced themselves with many griefs.” (NIV) (EMPHASIS ADDED)
http://www.investigativemedia.com/please-begin-yarnell-hill-fire-chapter-xxv-here/
Thank you, Joy.
And thanks once again to John Dougherty and InvestigativeMEDIA for allowing this important discussion to continue.
Reply to diane lomas post on January 5, 2017 at 8:41 pm
>> diane lomas asked…
>>
>> Do we know anyone on the fire who spoke with a cajun accent ?
It has never actually been ‘verified’ that the person who made that radio call directly to Eric Marsh at 4:13 PM ( asking him what Granite Mountain’s current ‘stay-tus’ was ) WAS speaking with a ‘Cajun’ accent.
It COULD have just been some other flavor of ‘southern drawl’. Maybe even a ‘Tennessee’ accent.
But ( speaking for myself only )… if that ‘recording’ showed up as an ‘Audio Final Jeopardy’ with the setup “Identify the following accent”… then I would probably bet everything I had earned on the show so far and ‘write’ on my ‘answer card’…
“What is… CAJUN?”
Even Holly Neill noticed the ‘accent’ on this person who was speaking directly to Eric Marsh at 4:13 PM when she was sending private emails to ADOSH lead investigator Marshall Krotenberg.
Holly Neill was getting a LOT of the ‘background radio conversations’ WRONG as she was trying to describe them to ADOSH investigator Marshall Krotenberg… but even Holly Neill went out of her way to point out to Krotenberg that whoever was speaking directly to Eric Marsh at that point was pronouncing the word ‘status’ as ‘STAY-TUS’.
But even then… and even with her continued ‘investigations’… there is nothing that suggests either Holly Neill or her co-investigator ( Eric Marsh’s old friend Alan Sinclair ) ever lifted one finger to try and ‘identify’ the owner of the ‘voice’ itself, even with all the ‘contacts’ and ‘sources’ available to THEM.
I still say it should be pretty easy to ‘identify’ this person that was speaking directly to Eric Marsh at 4:13 PM… but no one has ever bothered to do so.
Someone who was THERE that day most certainly KNOWS who that person was.
Yeah but wwtktt
Alan Sinclair is more than a tie to Holly Neill and fire industry..he was Eric’s best friend for a long time so can’t that factor weigh in…
Reply to Joy A. Collura post on January 7, 2017 at 1:23 pm
>> Joy A. Collura said…
>>
>> Yeah but wwtktt
>>
>> Alan Sinclair is more than a tie to Holly Neill and fire industry..he
>> was Eric’s best friend for a long time so can’t that factor weigh in…
“weigh in”… in what way?
What, exactly, were you trying to say there?
That because he was Eric Marsh’s friend… he has some kind of ‘built in’ excuse for NOT trying to find out ( or even care ) what really happened to him?
no I did not mean it that way… meaning because the world does not know how tied in he was at Eric’s long time friend that it was his duty to ensure any data being made to the world showed how he came to it so those folks who can try to discount it that maybe he was bias that the documents presented to world of how he got there would ensure the world knew he was doing it in a pure investigative manner versus any focus shifting to protecting or out of brotherly honor…just the simple acts presented and maybe expressing how things stated came to be…
Built in excuse, really?
How about Sinclair actually being a true friend and really caring about him and what happened.
And what do you base that on, just how is he trying to “not find out ( or even care )?
And if he knows what happened, then good for him. Hopefully, he will share that with others someday.
How long does to take before retired firefighters can speak feels out what happened on fires such as the Yarnell hill fire without fear of retaliation and negative career and pension consequences?
Freely not feels
That is one of your best questions Diane. How long indeed. Well, Dr. Ted Putnam has been investigating the Mann Gulch Wild Fire for a number of years–he has uncovered information that was known and withheld since 1949. When he was lead investigator at Storm King fire that killed 14 and protested at the cursory investigative situation he knew it would be a black ball situation against him but went ahead with his report as he saw it.
So there are a few wild land investigators that want all the facts brought out and a thorough and proper investigation made of these deaths–but at the peril of their careers.
The idea is to lay no blame and if errors in execution are made keep them quiet to the public view and at a detriment to lives of future wild land fire fighters.
To expose the gross errors made at Yarnell and even the Tenderfoot fires would not take away from the heroism of fire fighters. But it is a shame these men fear for their reputations over the safety and education of future wild land fire fighters under their supervision.
Keep asking the questions– you will notice that some of us don’t know the questions, much less the answers.
Reply to Robert the Second ( RTS ) post on
January 7, 2017 at 10:32 pm
>> RTS said…
>>
>> Built in excuse, really?
>>
>> How about Sinclair actually being a true friend and
>> really caring about him and what happened.
>>
>> And what do you base that on, just how is he trying
>> to “not find out ( or even care )?
Well… first off… all I was trying to do above was take a good ‘guess’ at what Joy herself might have been trying to say regarding Sinclair and his own ‘investigation’ efforts ( in conjunction with Holly Neill ).
I still haven’t been able to ‘parse’ her full response successfully and get anything but ( apparently ) a confirmation that my simple ‘guess’ is NOT what she was ‘trying’ to say about Sinclair’s ‘motivations’ ( or lack thereof ).
But secondly… YES… I believe that ( among others )… both Sinclair and Neill don’t appear to have ‘lifted a finger’ to actually ‘identify’ the owners of the very ‘voices’ they, themselves, were hearing after having been some of the first ‘citizens’ to obtain copies of the Panebaker Air Study videos.
Alan Sinclair is a ‘Type 2 Incident Commander’ in the same ‘region’ who is/was probably VERY familiar with many of the people working the Yarnell Fire… but there is still no evidence he, or Holly Neill ( or anyone else with their same ‘resources’ and ‘sources’, for that matter? ) has ever made any attempt to actually ‘identify’ these ‘voices’ that are clearly heard communicating directly with Eric Marsh during the SAIT’s ( alleged ) ‘blackout period’.
Just more ‘lost opportunities’ to know more about what was REALLY ‘going down’ that afternoon.
Perhaps the ‘reason’ is similar to that old Q/A adage…
“Q: Why does it always seem like something you are looking for ends up being in the LAST place you look?”
A: Because when you FIND it… you STOP LOOKING”.
If one’s reasons for ‘investigating’ are/were ‘biased’ and ‘goal oriented’… then when you think you have found what you WANTED to find… you tend not to continue to ‘follow where the evidence leads you’ and find out what, perhaps, you did NOT want to ‘find’ ( like WHO was saying things, and not just the fact that they WERE ).
>> RTS also said…
>>
>> And if he knows what happened, then good for him.
>> Hopefully, he will share that with others someday.
Hopefully… ANYONE who might ‘know more than what is currently publicly known’ about this historic National Tragedy will look past their own ‘personal’ reasons for ‘keeping secrets’ and one day ‘share what they know’.
It is still unknown what Sinclair’s ‘relationship’ is/was with author John Maclean.
What DOES appear obvious is that both he and Holly Neill seemed to feel they needed his ‘permission’ to publish that little bit of ‘investigating’ they already did… and that if it was to be published at all ( before there is any actual ‘book’ from Maclean )… then it was to be ‘published’ on Maclean’s OWN ‘website’ ( which is exactly what happened ).
Reply to Robert the Second ( RTS ) post on January 6, 2017 at 12:22 pm
>> RTS said…
>>
>> According to Willis himself, he did not designate a tennis court for
>> a SAFETY ZONE for those prison inmates under his supervision.
Really?… well… according to one of those inmates… SOMEONE did.
If Willis himself did not ‘designate’ the ‘Tennis Courts’ as the alternate ‘Safety Zone’ for those two-dozen+ men working that area if their one-and-only access road escape route got ‘cut off’ ( which is exactly what almost happened and the actual reason for the ADOSH ‘citation’ )…
…then what, exactly, did Willis have in mind as a ‘Safety Zone’ for those men?
>> RTS also said…
>>
>> He said that allegation, which led to an ADOSH citation, was solely on the word of
>> a single AZ DOC inmate without it ever being verified and/or corroborated.
That is a very misleading statement.
The designation of a ‘tennis court’ as a ‘Safety Zone’ was NOT what ‘led to the ADOSH citation’.
That ‘testimony’ about the ‘Tennis Court’ coming directly from one of the actual members of the Lewis DOC crew was simply just ‘mentioned’ in that one ( of many ) ‘Willful Serious’ workplace safety violations issued by ADOSH.
It only occupies ONE sentence in the ‘Citation’… and was NOT the ‘primary reason’ for the issuance of that citation at all.
>> RTS also said…
>>
>> I was originally one of the ones that believed the original allegation, however, once I
>> talked with Willis, he told me otherwise and I believe him.
Fine. When you run into him again… ask him exactly what he DID plan to do with ALL of those men if that one-and-only access road to the Double-Bar-A-Ranch had become compromised ( which is what ALMOST HAPPENED that day )… and they would have ALL had to ‘ride it out’ there at the Double Bar A Ranch.
Would Willis have then told them to ‘try’ the ‘Tennis Courts’, given no other choice?
The following document contains both the actual ‘Willful Serious’ Citations issued by ADOSH… and the ‘short’ text for each ‘citation’ issued… AND it also contains the ‘longer’ versions of the ‘citations’ ( with more detail about each one )…
ADOSH Web Documents / ASFD Worksheets.pdf
https://www.dropbox.com/sh/20inrene9tcx74a/AAD09OJn_pqxKkqbNfFMLz8Xa/ADOSH%20Web%20Documents?dl=0&preview=ASFD+Worksheets.pdf
The actual ‘Willful Serious’ Citation itself only says the following with regard to the ‘near entrapment’ of the resources that were under SPGS2 Darrell Willis’ direct command and working out at the ‘Double-Bar-A Ranch’…
——————————————————————————–
Citation 1 – Item 1 – Type: WILLFUL SERIOUS
Instance (a) ( of FOUR instances )…
a) Yarnell Hill Fire, Yarnell, Arizona: On June 30, 2013, between 1230 and 1430, and after the general public had been evacuated, thirty-one members of Structure Protection Group 2, charged with protecting non-defensible structures in the vicinity of the Double Bar A Ranch, were exposed to smoke inhalation, burns, and death by wind driven wildland fire.
——————————————————————————–
No mention of a ‘Tennis Court’ at all in that original verison of that one ( of many ) citations.
In the ‘detail’ section regarding this ‘Willful Serious’ workplace safety violation citation issued by ADOSH is where we get the ‘mention’ of the ‘tennis court’ ( for just one sentence )… but as you can see… the ‘tennis court’ thing itself was NOT the primary reason for issuing this particular ‘Willful Serious’ citation…
———————————————————————————
Instance a:
Hazard:
Employees assigned to Structure Protection Group 2 were exposed to smoke inhalation, burns, and death by a rapidly progressing wind driven wildland fire. On the morning and early afternoon of June 30, 2013, fire management assigned thirty one firefighters of Structure Protection Group 2 to provide point protection and structure protection at Double Bar A Ranch. Fire management previously identified structures at the Ranch as non-defensible. A tennis court designated as a safety zone was known to be too small for the approaching 40 foot long flames. Fire management observed air tanker retardant drops to be ineffective at suppressing fire progression. Despite fire management’s knowledge of existing conditions, the impending hazard, failure to control or suppress active fire, and the known futility of attempting to protect non-defensible structures, management assigned employees to protect the Double Bar A Ranch, and permitted employees to remain at the Ranch conducting burnout operations until the last moments before escape. Although escape was successful, fire management’s decision-making incorrectly prioritized the value of non-defensible structures ahead of firefighter safety which violated both State and Interagency wildland fire policy and procedures. As the day progressed, fire management continued to fail to re-evaluate, re-prioritize or update suppression efforts based on existing and expected conditions which resulted in additional exposures described below.
———————————————————————————
The actual ‘basis’ for just this one ( of many ) ‘Willful Serious’ workplace safety violations determined by ADOSH relied heavliy on the testimony of Air Attack ‘Bravo 3’ ( Rusty Warbis and Paul Lenmark ).
Warbis and Lenmark testified to ADOSH that THEY are the ones who felt that Darrell Willis and his ‘resources’ working out at the ‘Double Bar A Ranch’ were ‘task fixated’ and were NOT fully aware of the dangerous ‘entrapment’ situation that was developing out at that location.
Warbis and Lenmark were the ones that noticed that a separate ‘head’ of the fire was ABOUT to ‘cut off’ their one-and-only ingress/egress access road to/from that ‘Double Bar A Ranch’… and Warbis and Lenmark were worried enough that Wills and his forces were ‘oblivious’ to what was happening that THEY took it upon themselves to WARN Willis of the developing ‘entrapment’ situation.
Only then ( after the WARNING from Air Attack ‘Bravo 3’ ) did Willis actually issue the order for his resources to ‘evacuate’ from the ‘Double Bar A Ranch’.
Willis made no mention ( in any of his ADOSH interviews ) of this WARNING from Warbis and Lenmark being the reason for when he made his last-minute decision to evacuate that Ranch, in the nick of time. Willis made it sound like it was all ‘his idea’.
The full ADOSH interview with ‘Bravo 3’ ( Rusty Warbis and Paul Lenmark ) is still sitting online in the following ADOSH DOI/BLM Interview(s) folder…
https://www.dropbox.com/sh/20inrene9tcx74a/AABfSpB5Xy5uDUnjgJhuxs93a/ADOSH%20Yarnell%20Hill%20Investigation/DOI-BLM/Interview%20Transcripts?dl=0
Filename: Rusty Warbis & Paul Lenmark Interviews 9-23-13 redacted.pdf
( NOTE: The only redactions in this ‘Bravo 3’ Warbis/Lenmark interview transcript are on some spoken-out-loud ‘phone numbers’ ).
The part of the ADOSH interview where the investigators were asking Warbis and Lenmark directly if they though Willis and his ‘resources’ knew what they were doing and where Warbis and Lenmark say they believed Willis was (quote) “oblivious to the fire around them” begins around line 573 in the testimony.
Just one excerpt from this part of their ‘testimony’…
————————————————————————————
587 A or A1: Two heads that are running down, and, ah, one of those heads, um, appeared
588 to threaten the ingress and egress of those people that were working those
589 structures.
590
591 Q: So you were concerned about their safety and where they could go?
592
593 A or A1: Actually, I told them, ah, – at some point I – they were very, um, they were
594 very attentive to the structures. They weren’t – like I said, they were- seemed
595 to be a little oblivious to, um, where they were and, um, and I told them that if
596 ya – you better have a good spot to be that you’re willing to ride this out or
597 you need to, um, there was another fire…
————————————————————————————
“I TOLD them that if ya – you better have a good spot to be that you’re
willing to ride this out.”
And according to that testimony from that member of the DOC Lewis crew… the ‘spot’ where they were all being told ( by SOMEONE ) they could ‘ride it out’ ( if they lost their ability to egress via that one-and-only road to the Ranch ) was the ‘Tennis Courts’ there by the structures.
wwtktt said:
Fine. When you run into him again… ask him exactly what he DID plan to do with ALL of those men if that one-and-only access road to the Double-Bar-A-Ranch had become compromised ( which is what ALMOST HAPPENED that day )… and they would have ALL had to ‘ride it out’ there at the Double Bar A Ranch.
MY REPLY/INQUIRY
always been my beef…that if the Lewis crew or GMHS got cut off and had no safety zone than HOW COME they did not meet the helicopter at the helispot which was not on fire that area and which was not smokey had the stayed in the black they could of went a little further and got picked up…they could of been picked up and dropped off at Congress Fire Dept helispot..I will never get it and leads to support Sonny’s views of some order in which I like to rephrase always as “boss’s or other boss’s guidance”…higher influential guidance than themselves…if it is the same as an order..so be it…
In response to a comment by RTS, wwtktt said:
“Fine. When you run into him (Willis) again… ask him exactly what…………………..”
I’ll add to that my own question for RTS::
Also, ask him what were the exact words McDonough spoke to him (Willis) prior to he and the city attorney making a bee-line the the state attorney general’s office?
Willis stated publicly that the City Attorney’s version which was published in the news was “incorrect”, so what, exactly, is the CORRECT version of that conversation, which was so explosive that they headed-off to Phoenix without delay after the weekend was over.
You should ask him THAT question, and demand a succinct and straight answer, and I’m reasonably certain that for the most part, our investigative efforts here will be over.
It is beyond me to fathom, how people can have conversations and ask questions of the principle people of this tragedy, and not ask them the MOST IMPORTANT questions that need to be asked of that particular individual.
The Truth Will Always Remain Elusive says
JANUARY 7, 2017 AT 10:03 AMIt is beyond me to fathom, how people can have conversations and ask questions of the principle people of this tragedy, and not ask them the MOST IMPORTANT questions that need to be asked of that particular individual.
SO TRUE but I learned it is something you just don’t do in this state of Arizona…you never ask the MOST IMPORTANT questions or debate a pushy aggressive person and you never ever want to question any one in an authoritarian role
TTWARE,
Thanks for your comments. I will make it a point to ask him those questions the next time I see him in person, hopefully this Spring.
**
** WILLIS SAID THE TENNIS COURT WAS A ‘DEPLOYMENT ZONE’.
On December 11 of 2013, InvestigativeMEDIA published a series of EMAILED ‘responses’ from Darrell Willis regarding questions arising from the published ADOSH report.
One of those ‘questions’ to Willis was concerning the ‘Tennis Court Safety Zone’ issue.
Willis ‘officially’ responded… but did NOT take the opportunity to DENY that the ‘Tennis Court’ WAS being considered a ‘place to go’ for those firefighters under his command.
Willis just said it was more like a ‘Deployment Zone’ than a ‘Safety Zone’.
31 men… ‘deploying’ on a hard-surface ‘Tennis Court’ surrounded by flammable trees.
Yea… that was gonna work.
InvestigativeMEDIA
Article Title: Granite Mountain Hotshots Were Asked if they Could Protect Yarnell
Published: December 11, 2013 – By John Dougherty
http://www.investigativemedia.com/granite-mountain-hotshots-were-asked-if-they-could-protect-yarnell/
From that article…
—————————————————————————
ADOSH determined that not only were the firefighters facing the possibility of serious injury or death, a tennis court designated as their safety zone “was known to be too small for the approaching 40-foot-long flames.”
That Willis or state fire managers designated a tennis court as a safety zone for 31 ( THIRTY ONE ) firefighters facing such a serious threat outraged retired wildfire fatality investigator Dick Mangan, who now runs a wildfire private-consulting business in Missoula, Montana.
Mangan was a lead investigator on the 1994 South Canyon fire where 14 firefighters died. “That’s totally stupid to say a tennis court is going to be a safety zone,” he says. “That’s idiocy of the first order.”
Willis did not answer questions concerning the prison crew’s decision to abandon its post and on the lack of an adequate safety zone. The queries were e-mailed to him and to public-information officer Wertheim, who advised that city legal staff had advised the chief not to comment because a notice of claim (the precursor to a lawsuit) has been filed against the city regarding the Yarnell Hill Fire.
( Willis sent a response to the questions that was received after publication of this story. His response is at the end of this story.)
( snip )
WILLIS RESPONSE
InvestigativeMEDIA received the following email at 12:31 p.m., Dec. 11, 2013 from Pete Wertheim, Prescott’s public information officer:
This e-mail is in response to your comments/questions that you sent to Chief Willis on 12/8/13. This information was provided by Chief Willis:
Question/Comment #2
OSHA states that a 20-member Yuma prison crew under your command “packed up and left” the fire at 1 p.m.
Response to Question/Comment #2
The Yuma Department of Corrections Crew (DOC) did in fact work under the direction of Chief Willis the morning of June 30th in the Double Bar A Ranch area. They were developing a firing plan for the property, when the Yuma DOC crew stated they had limited experience with firing operations so they, along with other resources at the time, were replaced by crews with that experience.
Question/Comment #3
In addition, OSHA states the tennis court designated as a safety zone “was known to be too small for the approaching 40 foot flames.”
Response to Question/Comment #3
The tennis court was, at most, a Deployment Zone to be used as a last ditch life saving site.
—————————————————————————
Again… the response ( supposedly direct from Darrell Willis ), regarding the Arizona OSHA claim that a member of the DOC Lewis crew testified they were told to consider the ‘Tennis Court’ at the Double-Bar-A-Ranch a valid ‘Safety Zone’…
“The tennis court was, at most, a Deployment Zone to be used as a last ditch life saving site.”
Willis does not specifically DENY ( even though he had this direct opportunity to do so ) the statement made in the Arizona OSHA report. Willis just ‘qualifies’ the statement and says the ‘Tennis Court’ was more like a ‘Deployment Zone’ than a real ‘Safety Zone’.
If Willis never considered the ‘Tennis Courts’ to be any kind of ‘Safety’ and/or ‘Deployment Zone’ at all ( and never instructed anyone under his command to even consider it as such )… then why didn’t he just say so when he had this ( official ) opportunity to do so?
And before anyone says those ‘answers’ above might have been coming from the Prescott PIO instead of Willis himself… then be sure to notice what the PIO himself says in his email to John Dougherty…
“This information was provided by Chief Willis:”
WTKTT,
Thanks for your usual thorough and documented responses.
So then, it appears that if everything is based on whatever written records there is of everything, then there is no further need to dig any deeper. It is what it is.
I just posted what I remembered of the conversation I had with the man over year ago.
I love my new watch slash cell…too cool…I hate having a phone and I can do a watch…its a heart health thing too…love the lil sucker…
so anyways back to tennis courts…awaiting a program to download then out I go…
https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/236x/c9/30/1f/c9301f1e5e6f9cfb5ab1f13c92c86fc8.jpg
So I am heading up the hill to Sonny soon…just wanted to let some locals know:
1. click on your keyboard at same time CTRL and F
then you should see a box in right corner.
2. In that box enter any topic like “tennis courts” and it will show all areas on that page where “tennis courts” is…as you are on this chapter but strongly suggest go to each chapter and search each chapter with your word “tennis courts” I learned it from a smart person. I am not so savvy…I call that person aka bleacher person…
I hope your 2017 is going great…I almost got a job yet rerouted position to another local…actually 3 jobs rerouted…Sonny almost bought a huge ass truck today…Tomorrow begins a very cool journey…
so I hope you all have a cool journey…until then…BE HAPPY!
Woodsman-
when I say “Ryan Zinke”…you say __________
I say he’s a retired career naval officer, SEAL, turned Montana senator and supposed pick to head the Department of Interior in the next administration. Interesting. I’m not so sure Commander Zinke would be too impressed at the ‘performance’ of the NPS fire suppression efforts in Tennessee…I would imagine it to be substandard in his opinion. But that’s merely a wild-ass guess on my part. Time will tell.
Wood
would you ever meet in person Zinke if you had the opportunity…is he already in NYC/DC with Trump? hmmm…
Joy,
Would I ever meet Zinke in person if I had the opportunity? Absolutely.
I have no idea where he is & never heard of him before the announcement of his new duty station until a couple weeks ago.
Woodsman
Well, WOODSMAN, there may very well be a need
to plan for organizing, just such, an opportunity in the near future and, altho’ Whitefish is pretty far north; perhaps, you’re located that much closer, seeing as how NYC or DC is going to be a lot farther away, at any rate? If you would care to be involved in said endeavor (I’m assuming, that you do NOT, necessarily, detest “republicans” …can you be mobile for a period of up to 4 days’ time for this event)? If so, please, feel free to contact me by the following means…by throwing up your poms poms.and say HOORAY! 🙂
near 142 Lake Creek Meadows/75 is the closest pinpoint I can possibly give ya where the poms poms get raised to HOORAY- Wood….sorry for the vague public dialect of exact location..that has to be off here that topic…it is not far from the Johnston Peak…could that help you decide if you can make the event or not?
Wrong area Wood-
Sorry
I thought that was location…I don’t have text…480.280.5813
this comment is wrong Wood:
Cheerleader says
JANUARY 9, 2017 AT 5:27 PM
I had it on my page “open” awaiting further details. My mom called…Sonny called…my husband called so I had 3 lines I was at and I was packing and my dog and cat were on the page so it was on there ready to post with captcha ready so all I can think is one of the pets hit the touch screen because I saw it posted when I came back in and later it was confirmed at 6pm it is not the location…sorry…if John D wants to edit or remove it fine but it was in draft mode and it ended up posting….I know there is folks who would be like ???? simple error.
Joy,
I detest no one unless I have a really good reason…and a ‘label’ such as Republican or Democrat isn’t one of them, The ‘labels’ are an engineered strategy by the powers-that-be to pit man against man, to separate people from one another instead of unite. This makes it easier to control the masses and distract folks from the REAL issues. People fall into the trap day after day after day. It’s maddening… Think for yourselves, people!!
I would love to bend the ear of the next head of the Interior Department…no, I NEED to do it. Alas, due to bills to pay & several mouths to feed etc., I don’t possess the necessary discretionary funds for the travel & lodging you’re talking about at this time. And before anyone has the tremendously generous idea of assisting me in the endeavor…thank you very much but I cannot take it, the Woodsman paddles his own canoe.
I would jump at the chance, if Commander Zinke secures the position of Secretary of the Interior (or even if he doesn’t) , to speak with him & offer my thoughts/ideas on several matters relating to the management of our nation’s natural resources! Some day I hope I can make that happen and of course that hinges on the assumption that Cdr Zinke would or could make the time for it. I am, after all, but a lowly ol forest technician….a proud, bottom of the pay scale forest technician….with a sore back & quite possibly a chip on my shoulder. haha!
Thanks, Joy. You have a good heart.
Woodsman
Joy,
And if nothing else, I would like to ask him about my high school buddy who was later employed in the same ‘occupation’ as Cdr Zinke. I know he must have known him very well. Unfortunately, my friend is passed on but I’ll never forget him or his warrior spirit!
Woodsman
Diane lomas says
JANUARY 5, 2017 AT 2:39 PM
Compare the prison firefighters working with Darryl Willis to granite mountain—the prison firefighters were instructed to deploy in a space smaller than needed and as things fell apart for the they took it upon themselves to leave the area without instructions from Willis.
And I say…YES, that has been a RUNNING JOKE (mostly by the WOODSMAN and MYSELF) on this thread, just like Darrell WILLIS has been in total for years now. Great job on picking up on that as a ROOKIE! ALL of THOSE WF under Willis would have been killed by Willis just like he is responsible in large part for the deaths of the crew. WHAT a DUMB ASS he is!
Robert the Second says
JANUARY 4, 2017 AT 12:44 PM
Gary,
Forgive me. I forgot how “sensitive” you were. It does seem that you can certainly dish out the feculence with the best of them, when you want to, however, a might thin skinned on the receiving end, being a former HS Supt and all. Just saying …. Maybe ‘bullshitter’ was a might too harsh for you being so sensitive and all. How about using it as a verb instead, referring to your actions rather than and attack on your character? How about bovinely feculent instead?
On the other hand, you are a very sharp individual, being a former HS Supt and all, and you make some very valid points MOST of the time.
And I say…NOW that YOU have correctly diagnosed my condition as not only being “sensitive” and “thin skinned” but frankly, I am little fragile as well (I can now be honest…I don’t have to pretend to be strong anymore)…I will be expecting YOU to be a just a little be sweeter to ME and treat me just a little bit NICER…OK?
And FYI…I have given up on any pretense of “investigating” this “incident” at all….a man had to know his “limitations” (Dirty Harry) and “respond” accordingly. I know when I have been “BEAT”. None of my tricks or training learned at the “Finest Law Enforcement Training Center in the World (according to THEM)” (both uniform police training AND investigators training plus many others courses which amounted to almost one year of my life at FLETC https://www.fletc.gov/ all total) was any match for the “Red Wall of Silence” presented by the “WF community.” YOU people make the storied “BLUE WALL” look like the “three strand bob wire fence” that protects of from Mexico in most places! “YOU people” could teach the “Freemasons”, the “Cosa Nostra”, the “Illuminati”, the “FSB” and the “CIA” a few things about keeping SECRETS!
And now…the whispering sands of the dunes are again softly calling out my name…and so I must once again bid you a fond farewell!
If you are referring to the small subdivision where the Tennis Court was being designated as a Safety Zone, this was NOT true according to Darrel Willis.
He told me it was based on the uncorroborated assertion of only ONE AZ Prison inmate.
I believe Willis.
Did the prison firefighters leave without permission?
Please explain what happened in that area with willis.
Diane-
we had one of the Prison Crew firefighters at Sonny’s cabin and they did not leave without permission…they followed their boss’s guidance..
RTS,
Are you referring to the fact that Willis may not have designated a tennis court for a deployment site for those prison inmates under his supervision?
Diane,
That is MOSTLY correct. According to Willis himself, he did not designate a tennis court for a SAFETY ZONE for those prison inmates under his supervision.
He said that allegation, which led to an ADOSH citation, was solely on the word of a single AZ DOC inmate without it ever being verified and/or corroborated.
I was originally one of the ones that believed the original allegation, however, once I talked with Willis, he told me otherwise and I believe him.
Joy’s post a few days ago on the same subject verifies this as well.
Diane-
on 11-12-14 11:03 Andrew Williams
( https://www.facebook.com/andrewwilliams43 ) (https://sd.linkedin.com/in/andrew-williams-6a55a9101/de )
emailed me from a craigslist ad I posted on I needed help with defensible space because Sonny was not going to do it (he is a logger not a landscaper)…he emailed “is the job still available? how thick? I am a seasonal wildland firefighter with experience on defensible space and I was on the YHF.”
By 11:22 I sold some ammo to a local to cover the cost and I emailed Andrew back with details and by 11:51 he replied he had a chainsaw and 2 load trucks and burn the rest for $300 for 4 people and gave me his contact cell number. At the time I had to since the cabin was on “rent” vs own had to get the owner’s ok and have them all sign a liability sheet and so I even have all and any firefighters who worked on that .28/.33 acres so they cannot deny ever doing it as time goes by..they came to the property pure and shared their videos and photos and accounts…even by 11-12-14 I had Lewis crew at YHF on June 29th 2013 photos and accounts and their last day of YHF at the shrine and pic of the lewis crew all at the deployment site. So then I sent him a county employees photos of the Lewis Crew from that weekend and he confirmed 11/13/14 1:45pm that he is in that photo which was stationed at the Yarnell fire dept. and he explained the one standing was Fred Andrews and he was sitting down in the back. By 11-20-14 8am the crew of his came to Sonny’s and did the exceptional high quality work of defensible space. He did that working 12 hour shifts and it was amazing what he cracked out in work but also “pure” account that I posted long ago on here. I saw the firefighters who got in and out of the yellow and white helicopter and alot of photos- some given to me with raw mega data and some I took with my camera.
Now to answer you…in the start I was always a Darrell Willis cheerleader just by instincts and then the court case happened and he allowed out of support to speak hearsay and allow it to stick speaking hearsay as the testimony. I never did anything but keep him in the loop as the same to all that wanted it but we have talked since then and he felt he had to show support to her as he did and nothing more into it. So when he was capable to do that I did follow through and do foias on him and others surrounding him and to this date I never got the foias…that is not a red flag but in it I did get foias back on RTS areas and it never settled right the perceptions of others on RTS so then Willis got shelved as I have thoroughly tried to reverse the damage that has been done to this man RTS from people not even in the industry nor even in this state or this side of the coast trying to make him out to be something someone else MUST HAVE gotten in this one’s ears because it red flagged me and it did not add up….so alot of areas got shelved just to ensure 3 men in the industry who dedicated much of their life and skills and knowledge to the fire industry could be discounted in a blink of an eye like I have seen and THAT IS WRONG, Diane. I will send you the lewis crew pics…ok so you can see the man to link above is same man in pic and same man I wrote about long ago on here.
Diane-
by the way when I got the RTS data—I never asked for it— it was just in the requested any and all emails to the entity and he happen to just be in it…but imagine this Diane…I know an email exists and yet that was not in foia so imagine this Diane you do not get all the emails just what they want to feed out
My interpretation of joy’s post is that the prison firefighters did not leave without permission not that the tennis court was designated as a possible deployment area.
I even did you better Diane…you can go direct to Andrew and ask him your questions.
I did not say this Lewis Prison crew fella—-I gave you in purity the journey of how a YHF firefighter ended up in my path and tell me God does not have the plan…
http://www.investigativemedia.com/yarnell-hill-fire-chapter-x/#comment-190910
Diane, this is where I originally posted and you were not writing on IM.
I have thoroughly enjoyed reading this joy-provided so much background information.
RTS,
Willis told you that he did not identify the tennis court as a safety zone for those under his command at the YH fire, according to you. Did he claim it was a ‘deployment zone’ instead of a safety zone? You know, I’m making a connection here with the mindset and training with the wildland program at the Prescott FD with regards to shelters and ‘deployment zones.’ I know me and you are on the same page when it comes to the shelters, pre-planned ‘deployment zones’ (self-fulfilling prophecy?,) GM’s totally inadequate situation/area they attempted to deploy shelters, etc. Shed some light here.
Thanks!
Wood
Reply to Woodsman post on January 7, 2017 at 12:52 am
>> Woodsman said…
>>
>> RTS,
>>
>> Willis told you that he did not identify the tennis court
>> as a safety zone for those under his command at
>> the YH fire, according to you. Did he claim it was a
>> ‘deployment zone’ instead of a safety zone?
I don’t know what Willis actually ‘said’ to RTS, but when asked about the ‘Tennis Court’ by InvestigativeMEDIA reporter John Dougherty ( back in December of 2013 )… Willis responded ‘in writing’ ( via email ) that YES… he DID consider the ‘Tennis Court’ to at least have been a viable ‘Deployment Zone’ for all 31 ( THIRTY ONE ) firefighters working out at the Double-Bar-A Ranch on Sunday, June 30, 2013.
See the following ( longer ) post about that… including links to Willis’ actual ’email’ responses…
** WILLIS SAID ( IN WRITING ) THAT THE TENNIS COURT
** WAS A ‘DEPLOYMENT ZONE’.
http://www.investigativemedia.com/please-begin-yarnell-hill-fire-chapter-xxiv-here/#comment-469796
And just 23 days after those 31 firefighters working under Willis’ command at the Double-Bar-A Ranch *almost* had to test Willis’ ‘theory’ about the tennis court having been a viable ‘deployment zone’… Willis himself admitted he ( personally ) had no frickin’ idea even what the upper temperature limit(s) were for a standard Wildland Fire Shelter.
From the transcript of Willis’ July 23, 2013 press conference held out at the actual deployment site…
———————————————————–
Reporter: Chief Willis… how hot would it had to have been for those shelters to breakdown? At what temperature does that start to happen?
Darrel Willis: I don’t know the facts on that.
———————————————————–
Woodsman,
That is what i recall, that Willis told me he did not identify the tennis court as a safety zone for those under his command at the YH fire. He did NOT claim it was a ‘deployment zone’ instead of a safety zone as far as I recall.
I would have considered it a Temporary Refuge Area (TRA), but only based on whatever current and expected fire behavior would have impacted it. If it was insufficient, then escape. Hindsight bias? No, experience.
Yes, I know you are making a connection with the PFD wildland program mindset and training with regards to shelters and ‘deployment zones.’ I base it solely on McDonough’s actions and comments when he hit his trigger point while he was at his grader site lookout point, and decided that deploying his shelter was his only option rather than heading for some good black within about 500-600 yards above the grader site.
Yes, we are definitely on the same page when it comes to deploying ones fire shelter instead of the preferred escape option or to a true Safety Zone. Pre-planned ‘deployment zones’ are designs for disaster and should never be designated as such. I loathe them.
I believe that the GMHS’ totally inadequate situation/area they attempted to survive by fecklessly attempting to construct an area to deploy their fire shelters was based on their (and other Southwestern HS Crews) experience witnessing the shelter deployment on the Holloway Fire (NV/OR 2012), also referred to by them as the “Nevada Fire,” when a fill-in Zuni HS Crewmember deployed her fire shelter in very similar chaparral fuels. She survived with only minor 2nd degree burns. Those present at the deployment site commented that she should have died under those conditions.
If you look at the photos in the Holloway Fire Investigation Report, I think you’ll see what I mean.
So the attitude just MAYBE was, it worked then and there, and we are in deep shit right now, so let’s make a deployment site and just deploy our fire shelters here. WTF!
Doughnut must have been affected by the “red wall of silence”.
I find it very unusual and strange that for $55 anyone can buy a wildland firefighter USA badge…
I thought badges were earned or you had those who felt they did not need no stinking badge
https://youtu.be/VqomZQMZQCQ
How well is USA Wildland Firefighters special report facebook used as reliable go to source to the fire industry current and retired. How many go there from IM? About the same/comparable as NIFC/blm facebook? I do not do facebook…just curious if any data is worth joining up to peak there…
someone sent me since I cannot see that page:
NIFC facebook
Joseph Agozino
January 3, 2017
I worked in Fire Management and Prescribed burning…along with wildland firefighting for 10 years…My oldest son works for CAFIRE as a Engineer/Medic for 24 years…we follow the Wildland Fire Agencies reports daily…and…find them well reported and worth our efforts…continue your good works…and…we will follow…Joe
(((MY QUESTION IS WHY DID JOE GIVE THE PAGE ONE STAR OUT OF 5 BUT LEAVE A NICE COMMENT LIKE THAT…I FELT LIKE I WAS READING A HOTSHOT EVALUATION WHERE THEY SAY NICE THINGS BUT CHECK OFF THE POOR REMARKS AREA…???? huh????))))
thank you to my family who will redirect TN folks to this IM page
Any person affected by the Chimney Tops 2 Fire who peaks on IM and who is getting strangers reaching out to them-
feel free to reach me 480.280.5813 (voice message only; no texts can be opened) to match up the strangers to who and what happen to me after the YHF…just leave a full name/best contact details type message…I check it a few times a week- not a phone gal.
so you can learn who’s who on your fire aftermath journey because there is areas from strangers that I hope you never face like I had to…let me help you avoid that pain…and costs…
there is people out there who say they are there to help you get closure but you learn through others that could be the farthest from the truth…
you will see these strangers bad mouth people who have been in the fire industry for decades and never have any public resource or source how they came to that perceptions…yet feel okay to even state it public yet you dare not agree with that person or ask direct questions and etc…I am very sorry one good man is having to file suit to reach his truth as a high up fire guy…and I hope justice is served…
I can warn you against those folks.
I want you to know their B-E-^A-G-G-R-E-S-S-I-V-E ways…and question it.
What made me think on this was recently for a local I went to her employment to meet with her district manager to help her get her much needed vacations going and in the interview I felt I was more running the interview and it I learned who would be the right choice to actually take the job on…even was offered 2 more jobs while in this meeting with district manager Mike G. and in it I thought does anyone realize how I could appear a weak link on work ethics being how I non-traditionally live my life…yet it made me seriously reflect on the persons that came to us since the fire and why and where are they now…
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-37171390
what is your take on this article shadows and light people…
https://wildfirelessons.wordpress.com/2017/01/05/entrapments-are/
Thanks Joy.
Please bear in mind the operative words in this are “UNEXPECTEDLY CAUGHT.”
It’s a common practice to disengage and retreat to a safe area, later to reengage when it’s safe, sometimes several times in an operational period.
RTS is referring to https://wildfirelessons.wordpress.com/2017/01/05/entrapments-are/
Entrapment: A situation where personnel are unexpectedly caught in a fire behavior-related, life-threatening position where planned escape routes or safety zones are absent, inadequate, or compromised. An entrapment may or may not include deployment of a fire shelter for its intended purpose. These situations may or may not result in injury. They include “near misses.”
I liked this part:
“(Yes, I had a stern talk with a few folks about what “copy” means.)”
Sonny-
https://youtu.be/tyN0QqgBdRY
early on you talked UFO stuff…maybe what you were saying needs to be talked more about…Sonny- check this video out
here is source Sonny I saw video:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/08/17/ufos-videotaped-canadian-wildfire_n_5685252.html
strange how similar the pattern movements are to some I posted on my hiking page Sonny:
http://www.zazzle.com/ufo_postcard-239932383789958849
Vernon, Arizona
let me go see if I can find any other on my hiking page than go watch ufc…
the last one was posted on my hiking page Product ID: 239932383789958849
Created on: 6/3/2012, 8:59 PM
http://www.zazzle.com/odd_vernon_arizona_sky_views_postcard-239942630712668655
Product ID: 239942630712668655
Created on: 6/3/2012, 8:57 PM
and this one:
http://www.zazzle.com/ufo_postcard-239882906657638547
Product ID: 239882906657638547
Created on: 6/3/2012, 9:01 PM
let me find the Dolan Srings ones
Product ID: 239844567963904495
Created on: 12/19/2011, 5:55 PM
http://www.zazzle.com/dolan_springs_arizona_ufo_postcard-239844567963904495
sorry Sonny but the hiking page is changed and they took off all the photos…hmm…weird…just gone…
Joy,
I was referring to your originally posted link.
Look again. It’s in the block just under the title, Entrapment, just under the author’s name.
**
** Q: WHEN IS AN APPEAL COURT JUDGE NO LONGER AN APPEAL COURT JUDGE?
**
** A: WHEN HE’S ALREADY BEEN ‘SWORN IN’ AS A SUPREME COURT JUSTICE.
Arizona Appeal Court Judge Andrew Gould’s ‘written opinion’ in the Marcia McKee ‘wrongful death’ appeal was first ‘filed’ on December 30, 2016.
But Judge Gould had ALREADY been ‘sworn in’ on December 19, 2016 as one of Arizona’s TWO new ( Republican ) Supreme Court Justices, after being ‘selected’ for the ‘job’ ( and not subject to any confirmation ) by Republican Governor Doug Ducey.
That means Gould was ALREADY an Arizona Supreme Court Justice for 11 days before finally ‘publishing’ his ‘written opinion’ on the Marcia McKee appeal case.
The Arizona Republic ( AZCENTRAL )
Article Title: 2 Arizona Supreme Court justices sworn in for expanded court
Published: 3:57 p.m. MT Dec. 19, 2016 ( Reprinted from an Associated Press article )
http://www.azcentral.com/story/news/local/arizona/2016/12/19/2-arizona-supreme-court-justices-sworn-expanded-court/95630986/?from=global&sessionKey=&autologin=
—————————————————————————
PHOENIX — Two new Arizona Supreme court justices were sworn in Monday for high court posts that became available after Gov. Doug Ducey expanded the court from five justices to seven, with the governor hailing them as uniquely qualified for the posts.
The governor appointed fellow Republicans Andrew Gould and John Lopez IV last month to the new seats after signing the law in May that added the posts.
Gould and Lopez were sworn in at a ceremony at the Capitol’s old Senate chambers, with Ducey saying they “are exactly the kinds of justices I want to see on our state’s highest court.”
Gould, 53, has been on the Arizona Court of Appeals since 2012 and previously spent more than a decade as a judge with Yuma County Superior Court. He was a prosecutor in Yuma and Maricopa counties and in Indiana from 1994 to 2001.
Lopez, 48, has been Arizona’s solicitor general since January 2015 and was previously a federal prosecutor and in private practice.
Ducey said he chose the new judges after determining their judicial philosophy acceptable. He said he wanted judges who follow the law, apply the Constitution as written and understand that a judge’s role is to interpret laws, not make them.
He also pushed back on questions about whether he expanded the court to pack it with Republicans, something Democrats said during the legislative debate.
“We have not packed the court, we have right-sized the court,” he said.
The law ( that added the TWO new Supreme Court Justices ) was pushed through the Republican-controlled Legislature with no Democratic support and over the opposition of the current Arizona Supreme Court Chief Justice Scott Bales, who said there was NO NEED for extra justices and that the $1 million in costs for them could have been used for more pressing court funding needs.
—————————————————————————
when my father worked for Sheriff Arpaio long ago—I knew how corrupt some areas were— but they never saw it as corruption– they saw it as bonuses or raises or benefits— something to make it feel right—
I feel it is wrong that this judge is able to have any interest in the case when he was promoted—
in my opinion–
congrats judge but step aside…
conflict of interest-
Reply to Gary Olson post on January 3, 2017 at 2:55 pm
>> Gary Olson said…
>>
>> So…my question is, why can someone be sent to prison and have to pay civil damages
>> for either manslaughter or negligent homicide even without “knowingly and purposely
>> with the direct object of injuring” a person but yet the State of Arizona gets off because
>> no evidence was provided that the acts they committed “were done knowingly
>> and purposely with the direct object of injuring the firefighters?”
>>
>> Did I explain my question adequately?
Yes… and I’m sure a LOT of other people are wondering the same damn thing… but in this case we are talking about someone who has lost their best friend and only son is isn’t even being allowed to have a ( win or lose ) ‘day in court’.
So the QUESTION ( in this case ) really is…
Why would Marcia McKee have to supposedely PROVE that the people who her son was working for when he died ( due to their provable negligence ) actually WANTED him dead… and were TRYING to kill him… in order to just be allowed to proceed with a normal ‘wrongful death’ lawsuit that normally does NOT have any such pre-trial requirement?
It all comes down to Arizona’s workers’ compensation laws ( as currently written ), and the associated infamous ‘exclusive remedy’ bullshit… and what it actually SAYS in the Arizona statutes about it.
If you read the whole ‘Andrew Gould written opinion’ at…
http://www.azcourts.gov/Portals/0/OpinionFiles/Div1/2016/1%20CA-CV%2015-0800.pdf
…you see statements that actually ‘attempt’ to explain this.
I’m going to show ‘Step by Step’ how Judge Gould came to ‘believe’ that Marcia McKee is ‘required’ to show MALICIOUS / WILFUL INTENT even BEFORE she is allowed to have a ‘day in court’ and actually ‘call witnesses’…
** Step 1…
———————————————————————————
II. Wrongful Death
Appellant ( Marcia McKee ) CONCEDES that if McKee was an employee of the State at the time of his death, her ability to sue for wrongful death is limited by Arizona’s workers’ compensation exclusive remedy provision.
———————————————————————————
What that means is that, for better or worse, Marcia McKee’s attorneys AGREED ( at some point when all the ‘appeal’ briefs were flying back and forth ) that IAOI ( If And Only If ) the appeal court decided that Grant McKee really WAS a valid ‘contract employee’ for Arizona Forestry on the day he died… then Marcia’s ability to even file a ‘wrongful death’ claim had to be ‘in sync’ with certain ‘provisions’ that are actually codified in Arizona’s ‘worker’s compensation’ laws.
I think Marcia’s attorneys would have better served her if they did NOT ‘stipulate’ that and/or ‘agree’ to those ‘constraints’ printed in Arizona’s workers’ compensation statutes… but that’s for another post.
The fact is that they DID ( agree to these ‘constraints’ ).
** Step 2…
Gould’s ‘written opinion’ then takes ‘Step 2’ and says that after considering all the arguments about whether Grant McKee was ( or was not ) a valid ‘contractor’ for Arizona Forestry at the time of his death ( this is what all the ‘Inter-Government Agency (IGA) stuff was really about )… the court officially concluded that YES… he WAS.
They concluded that the IGA contract for supplying fire-fighting services between Prescott and Arizona Forestry WAS ‘valid’… and ‘in effect’… so that means Grant McKee really WAS ( technically ) a ‘contract employee’ for Arizona Forestry when he was killed, and WAS ‘covered’ under the State of Arizona’s “worker’s compensation” program ( and statutes ).
So that means the ‘Judges’ were now free to move to ‘Step 3′ and see exactly what the State-level “workers’ compensation” statutes have in them ( because Marcia’s attorneys agreed they COULD do that if they found Grant to have been a valid AZF contractor ).
** Step 3…
Here is exactly what Arizona’s own “workers’ compensation” laws say… and here comes the JUSTIFICATION for the attorneys for Arizona Forestry arguing that Marcia McKee MUST PROVE that AZF employees WANTED her son dead before she should be allowed to proceed with a ‘wrongful death’ civil lawsuit…
http://law.justia.com/codes/arizona/2005/title23/01022.html
————————————————————————
2005 Arizona Revised Statutes – Revised Statutes 23-1022
Compensation as exclusive remedy for employees;
definition; exceptions; public agency employees
A. The right to recover compensation pursuant to this chapter for injuries sustained by an employee or for the DEATH of an employee is the exclusive remedy against the employer or any co-employee acting in the scope of his employment, and against the employer’s workers’ compensation insurance carrier or administrative service representative, except as provided by section 23-906, and except that if the injury is caused by the employer’s wilful misconduct, or in the case of a co-employee by the co-employee’s wilful misconduct, and the act causing the injury is the personal act of the employer, or in the case of a co-employee the personal act of the co-employee, or if the employer is a partnership, on the part of a partner, or if a corporation, on the part of an elective officer of the corporation, and the act indicates a wilful disregard of the life, limb or bodily safety of employees, the injured employee may either claim compensation or maintain an action at law for damages against the person or entity alleged to have engaged in the wilful misconduct.
B. “Wilful misconduct” as used in this section means an act done knowingly and purposely with the direct object of injuring another.
———————————————————————————-
Okay… a lot of ‘goobly gook’… but here is basically what the above says…
If you are an employee in Arizonastan, and you have AGREED ( when you were hired ) to become part of Arizonastan’s “workers’ compensation” plan… and you have also AGREED to the “exclusive remedy” provisions of that Arizonastan “workers’ compensation” plan… then if you get INJURED or KILLED ‘on the job’… you automatically ‘give up’ your right to ‘maintain an action at law to recover damages’.
You must just accept whatever standard ‘compensation’ you are entitled to following your INJURY or DEATH ( in which case your dependents get the ‘compensation’ ), and that is the END OF THE STORY ( as in… the ‘exclusive remedy’ ).
But notice the ‘lawyer speak’ codified in that paragraph above.
That paragraph is, in fact, ALSO attempting to list the EXCEPTIONS to this… and the times when you ( or your survivor ) COULD also legally file a ‘lawsuit’ to recover damages over and above the standard amounts that “workers’ compensation” automatically provides.
Just to be clear… ( and if you will stick with me for a moment )… let me print the actual Arizona LAW again… but this time in ‘clearer’ sections.
This is actually the FIRST part of the Arizona LAW in question…
—————————————————————————————-
2005 Arizona Revised Statutes – Revised Statutes §23-1022
Compensation as exclusive remedy for employees;
definition; exceptions; public agency employees
A. The right to recover compensation pursuant to this chapter for injuries sustained by an employee or for the DEATH of an employee is the exclusive remedy against the employer or any co-employee acting in the scope of his employment, and against the employer’s workers’ compensation insurance carrier or administrative service representative,
—————————————————————————————–
Full stop.
That is the END of what is called the ‘declarative’ part of the LAW itself, and it’s very clear.
It says that whatever ‘compensation’ is provided to YOU ( in the result of an injury ) or to your SURVIVOR ( in the event of your DEATH ) ‘on the job’ is the ‘exclusive remedy’ for that situation, and ( if you have agreed to be ‘covered’ by workers’ compensation at all ) then you must ACCEPT THAT and you CANNOT then file any additional COURT cases related to that incident.
And ( in Step 1 above )… Judge Gould points out that Marcia McKee’s attorneys had already AGREED that this is/was the case.
But NOW… notice the REST of that ‘paragraph’.
It NOW goes on to list the EXCEPTIONS to this, and the ONLY times that you would be LEGALLY ‘able’ to file an additional court case against the employer or its employees ( like a ‘wrongful death’ suit ).
I’m going to now just SUMMARIZE the rest of that paragraph, and the EXCEPTIONS it is listing that ( if applicable ) would ALLOW you to file any ‘additional’ court case(s)…
———————————————————————————————
except as provided by section 23-906
Section 23-906 of Arizona Law specifically concerns “workers’ compensation” and has the following ‘title’…
23-906. Liability under chapter or under common law of employer securing
compensation; carriers; service representatives; right of employee to make
election; procedure for making election.
Section 23-906 of Arizona Law ALSO lists its own ‘exceptions’ that would apply here… one of which is the fact that if certain ‘notices’ were NOT clearly posted in the employee’s workplace, and the employee was NOT made aware that he/she could ‘opt out’ of the ‘exclusive remedy’ clause… then no ‘exclusive remedy’ clause is actually in effect.
except that if the injury is caused by the employer’s WILFUL MISCONDUCT… AND the act indicates a WILFUL DISREGARD of the life, limb or bodily safety of employees
So there it is.
The WILFUL MISCONDUCT ‘exception’ in this ‘workers compensation’ shit.
This means that if ( and ONLY if ) there was some ‘wilful misconduct’ involved then there can be an allowed ‘exception’ to the ‘exclusive remedy’ provision.
SIDENOTE: Notice that this ‘exception’ to the ‘exclusive remedy’ thing ( which is where “wilful misconduct” is mentioned ) does NOT actually mention “in the case of the DEATH of the employee.” It ONLY says “except that if the INJURY”. This is VERY important distinction ( legally speaking ) and another place where I think Judge Andrew Gould had his head up his ass. More about this later.
———————————————————————————————
The last sentence in the Arizona LAW governing ‘exclusive remedy’ ( after the listing of the exceptions ) just says this…
———————————————————————————————
…the injured employee may…
EITHER claim compensation
OR maintain an action at law for damages against the
person or entity alleged to have engaged in the wilful misconduct.
———————————————————————————————
That just means that if any of the ‘exceptions’ listed are applicable ( like anything in section 23-906 or if there is any PROOF of ‘wilful misconduct’ )… then the employee IS no longer constrained by this ‘exclusive remedy’ provision and IS allowed to “maintain an ADDITIONAL action at law” to recover “damages” over and above what worker’s compensation provides.
( Continued next ‘Reply’ because of length limit… )
( Continued from above )…
But now here is the ‘KICKER’ ( and the absolute basis of both the arguments presented by Arizona Forestry lawyers AND the basis of Judge Gould’s ‘written opinion’ )…
The very next ‘paragraph’ in this Arizona workers’ compensation ‘exclusive remedy’ LAW then goes “out of its way to DEFINE “wilful misconduct”, which was used in the paragraph above it…
—————————————————————————————–
B. “Wilful misconduct” as used in this section means an act done KNOWINGLY and PURPOSELY with the DIRECT OBJECT of injuring another.
—————————————————————————————–
So here is the conundrum ( in ‘lightning round’ fashion )…
The existing Arizonastan law regarding “workers’ compensation” says that if you, as an employee, ‘elected’ to ‘participate’ in that program at all… then the only way you ( or one of your legal representatives ) can file a court case against the ’employer’, if you are injured and/or KILLED in THEIR “workplace, is if you can PROVE ( before there is even any kind of trial ) that your employer actually WANTED YOU DEAD…
…but there is really no way you could PROVE that UNLESS you are allowed to proceed with a valid ‘court case’ and at least enter a ‘discovery’ phase where you can issue subpoenas and take ‘under oath’ depositions from all those involved in the incident.
Can you say… CATCH-22! ( BIG time! )
And that CATCH-22 is WHY this case is headed for ( probably ) BOTH the Arizona Supreme Court AND the United States Supreme Court.
Because that obvious ‘CATCH-22’ in Arizonastan’s law is in direct contradiction of other things related to EVERY U.S. citizen’s right to have their “day in court” as codified in BOTH the Arizona Constitution AND the United States Constitution ( The Seventh Ammendment, in particular ).
Yeah…I know but thank you anyway. The bottom line is the state makes the rules and the rules say they win.
http://www.investigativemedia.com/please-begin-yarnell-hill-fire-chapter-xxiv-here/#comment-469731
I was really just trying to offer a little support to Mrs. McKee on what has to be the second worst day in her life.
Here is the actual Arizona ‘Wrongful Death’ statue ( law ) A.R.S 12-611 that is totally ‘separate’ from any bullshit that the “workers’ compensation” exclusive-remedy laws is trying to lay on TOP of the ‘base law’…
http://law.justia.com/codes/arizona/2005/title12/00611.html
———————————————————————
2005 Arizona Revised Statutes – Revised Statutes 12-611 Liability
When DEATH of a person is caused by wrongful act, neglect or default, and the act, neglect or default is such as would, if death had not ensued, have entitled the party injured to maintain an action to recover damages in respect thereof, then, and in EVERY such case, the person who or the corporation which would have been liable if death had not ensued shall be liable to an action for damages, notwithstanding the death of the person injured, and although the death was caused under such circumstances as amount in law to murder in the first or second degree or manslaughter.
———————————————————————
So right there is the ‘law’ that covers the ‘baby in the back seat’ scenario and other such similar tragedies where DEATH occurs because of ‘negligence’, ‘incompetence’, or BOTH.
There is NOTHING in that Arizona LAW which says it needs to be proved someone WANTED to kill someone before a ‘wrongful death’ action can/should be allowed to be FILED and allowed proceed to TRIAL ( which is the only way to try and find out what REALLY happened ).
It is this OTHER “workers’ compensation exclusive remedy” bullshit, and its OWN ‘insertion’ of its OWN ‘definitions’ for ‘Wrongful Death’ that Judge Andrew Gould ( and others ) believe OVERRIDES the ‘base’ Arizona law and puts these OTHER ‘Wilful misconduct’ requirements onto the situation.
And THAT is what ‘Supreme Courts’ are for… to RESOLVE ‘discrepancies’ in laws where one statute says one thing… and another statute then says something completely different.
Marcia McKee is being denied even the chance to just have her “day in court”… and be able to have witnesses testify “under oath” about what really happened in Yarnell ( the WHOLE weekend ) and about the circumstances that led to the death of her best friend and only son.
SIDENOTE: The reference to ‘manslaughter’ itself in the ACTUAL base-level Arizona ‘Wrongful Death’ statute shown above DOES automatically INCLUDE all the ‘negligence’ related charges like “negligent homicide’ ( with or without the aggravating “depraved indifference” charges ) which ( as you pointed out ) NEVER require there to have been any ‘Wilful intent’ at all.
Followup…
That Arizona ‘Wrongful Death’ ACT legislation ( A.R.S 12-611 ) specifically says….
“…in EVERY such case…”
It does NOT say…
“…in EVERY such case… except when it’s a dead employee who might have been covered by workers’ compensation…”
So that’s the ‘signpost up ahead’ on the ‘next stop’ at the Arizona Supreme Court.
Here is a topic that has really perplexed me for some time now and why I think Marcia SHOULD have prevailed in her lawsuit.
I have said many time on this thread that IF I were investigating the Yarnell Hill Fire and IF Eric Marsh and Jesse Steed would have survived their reckless decision, I would have recommended in the strongest possible terms that they should be prosecuted for manslaughter http://www.azleg.gov/ars/13/01103.htm1. because they “Recklessly causing the death of another person;”
I would also have recommended that that they be charged with negligent homicide per A.R.S. §13-1102 as a fall back position. The crime of negligent homicide occurs when an individual performs an act that is negligent and results in the death of another person.
On a side note, investigators never decide what to charge someone with, that is always up to the prosecuting attorney although they can and do make recommendations prosecuting attorneys normally listen to.
Specifically, the act that is committed that results in another person’s death is referred to as “criminal negligence.” It means that an individual fails to realize that there is a considerable risk to the act being committed that can result in grave circumstances. This risk is substantial and unjustifiable and must be of such a degree that the person’s failure to perceive it as being such means they have greatly deviated from the standard of care that another, more reasonable person would have foreseen in such a situation.
The term does not insinuate that the defendant had an intention of killing someone. However, it does mean that the individual was responsible for the death of the other person as a result of their risky behavior, behavior that someone of reasonable mind would not have done because they would have realized there was a risk to another person.
Many times, the charge is put forth on a parent as a result of their children dying in an accident or other circumstances. The prosecuting attorney will attempt to prove that the parent or parents are at fault for not being more attentive and for failing to protect their child.
The charge is very similar to manslaughter but differs because manslaughter occurs when there is a recklessness that results in deviating from “normal conduct”. It is not considered negligence that occurs when deviating from a “standard of care”. As a result, a charge of negligent homicide has a punishment that is not as severe as manslaughter. A person who is charged with this serious crime are usually operating a motor vehicle when the crime occurs.
So…both of these charges could result in a CIVIL case being filed against the guilty party and they would not only serve prison time but would have civil penalties to pay or at least owe. The newspaper article below is quoted as saying;
“In a unanimous opinion, the judges said Marcia McKee presented no evidence that the actions of the state that 2013 day amounted to “willful misconduct” by anyone involved.
Appellate Judge Andrew Gould acknowledged that McKee’s allegations show “a series of negligent and grossly negligent acts” that, if proven, culminated in the death of her son, Grant, and 18 members of the Granite Mountain Hotshot crew. But he said McKee provided no evidence that these acts “were done knowingly and purposely with the direct object of injuring the firefighters.”
So…my question is, why can someone be sent to prison and have to pay civil damages for either manslaughter or negligent homicide even without “knowingly and purposely with the direct object of injuring” a person but yet the State of Arizona gets off because no evidence was provided that the acts they committed “were done knowingly and purposely with the direct object of injuring the firefighters?”
Since “knowingly and purposely” is NOT an element necessary to prove someone….”4) Recklessly causing the death of another person.” why is “knowingly and purposely” an element that must be proved for Marcia’s wrongful death suit?
Did I explain my question adequately because trying to articulate it gave me a headache? Or is the answer simply because “life isn’t fair” and the state of Arizona is in complete and total control of the situation and always have been and always will be?
In other words, the state required Marcia to prove a standard in order to hold the state responsible for the very same thing the state is not required to prove, in order hold an individual responsible for….the negligent death of another. Right?
OK…just one more, I hope.
“The State of Arizona held Mrs. Mckee to a standard they do not hold themselves to.”
Do as we say…not as we do.
Is this new CAPTCHA thing giving anyone else a royal pain in the ass, or is it just me? At least I am getting a good workout with my 3rd grade math.
It’s not just you. It goes into effect immediately, there is no delay. And it doesn’t even get it the first time. It IS annoying, and what purpose does it serve?
Those are exactly the problems I am having, it is one fickle bitch (non-gender specific) as far as it’s purpose, apparently JD found out a machine has been posting here and he is trying to fool HAL 9000.
Oh and one more thing about cloggin’ in my comment below. That is NOT something we did with the local ladies in the backs of their pickup trucks in the dark parking lot at Bill Stanley’s.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cs2j8f7H2WY
Although both HAL 9000 and Sonny could probably show us how to clog since it was brought to the Appalachia Mountains by Irish settlers way back when…right?
FYI…I am making CAPTCHA happy by answering about 3 questions correctly and then posting a fourth one and only then hit refresh and sometimes it goes.
WHOOPS
FYI…I am making CAPTCHA happy by answering about 3 questions correctly and then posting a fourth one and only then hit POST COMMENT and sometimes it goes.
Reply to Gary Olson post on
January 3, 2017 at 5:21 pm
>> Gary Olson said…
>>
>> Although both HAL 9000 and Sonny could
>> probably show us how to clog since it was
>> brought to the Appalachia Mountains by
>> Irish settlers way back when…right?
Yep.
Watch their ‘feet’ in the video.
Some of the ‘steps’ are identical to the ‘1-2-3’ count cadence for ‘Irish JIGS’.
But even the people still ‘carrying on the traditions’ don’t really know ( or care ) that it’s ‘Irish based’.
I once was at a fiddle gathering in the Appalachians and sat down with some ‘old fellers’ playing fiddle.
I asked them… “Y’all know any Irish tunes?”
They all said “Nope”.
I then aksed… “Well, do y’all know ‘Red Haired Boy’, ‘Soldier’s Joy’; and ‘Whiskey Before Breakfast’?”
Their eyes lit up and they all said…
“Oh SHUURE… we know THEM tunes!”
( People really are carrying on Irish traditions without even knowing it ).
I knew you and Sonny (I bet) would know all about cloggin’! I just wish I could dance cause I would like to learn how to clog.
OK, Big G, I’m going to try to help with your thought process here (& probably end up confusing you.) I’m also going to save a copy of this bastage before I try to submit it because I’ll probably screw it up & lose it forever. This is going to go places you may not have gone before so hang with me.
When you viewed the video of the court proceeding, how many officers of the court do you believe were present?
The venue was selected by whom? What was being asked? By whom? Who were they asking?
I’m not going to answer all of these questions right off the bat & all of them don’t need answers anyway but I’ll give a little to assist (or possibly make it more confusing.)
The complainant’s agent asked the government for permission to make a claim against the government and the government said: “No.” Well, they didn’t use that exact word in their reply they said that she, (through her hired help), did not present sufficient evidence to prove the claim that the deaths of GM were caused with intent to do so. Are you astounded by their reply?
This will probably make your head spin but I hope it will help explain to you why no attorney would ever have you, free of charge or not, assist in any case related to this incident. That’s why your offer(s) were ignored. Their duty doesn’t include what we believe it should be. What I’m talking about will hopefully help explain the various attorney’s actions & words in the cases associated with the Yarnell Hill fire. Heck, even ol’ Abner is shoring up the narrative that “we’ll just never know exactly what happened to those brave hotshots that day.” What I’m talking about should help explain McGroder’s actions & words in cases associated with the Yarnell Hill fire as well. His client’s case was weak. Why? Me & you have a difference of opinion on the families taking the money and settling the case. It ended up being that paltry sum or nothing. Why? They were led down that path the whole way.
Is any of this clicking at all? The truth is often a very uncomfortable thing. It’s stranger than fiction some might say.
Wood
I agree that none of the families which includes Mrs. McKee ever had any case and I’m sure WTKTT can quote you the numerous times I have said that exact thing on this thread now since BEFORE the lawsuits were ever filed.
Another thing that I have said before was the attorneys for the families had a duty to inform their clients that they did not have a case and would never prevail.
I have said several times the BEST they ever could have hoped for was a negotiated nuisance settlement because any good attorney will recommend settling a case even if they are sure they will win because this kind of case will cost hundreds of thousands of dollars in litigation and court costs.
I also said they families would end up taking the insulting nuisance settlement because they were told it was that or NOTHING and apparently Mrs. McKee was the only one wiling to accept nothing rather than compromise what she believed to be right.
So…you are actually quoting some of the very same arguments that I have been making for three years now back to me. I was only trying to point out the duplicity and disingenuous of the state of Arizona in that they dismissed Mrs. McKee’s case because she could not meet the very same standard they themselves don’t have to meet when they put people in prison for negligent homicide or manslaughter in that “malice aforethought” is NOT element of those crimes that MUST be met.
In other words, they dismissed her case because she did not prove malice aforethought in order to prevail but people go to prison almost every day in this country for vehicular manslaughter or when parents leave their babies in hot cars because they forget about them when there is no malice aforethought either.
The question I was really trying to ask is…why are there two different standards…other than the state is in control and they make the rules and the rules say they win.
Which was just a really long winded rhetorical question anyway but I like things to make sense and be fair…for everyone. I think everyone should play be the same rules…call me old fashioned or idealistic or whatever.
I am however…still waiting for someone to explain to me why the City of Prescott, Chiefs Willis and Fraijo and everyone else in their food chain were NOT sued for failure to train the crew to live rather than to die.
I assume there is a rule that say’s they can’t be sued and the only recourse is what is allowed by state worker’s compensation but who knows…who knows?
In fact…I am so damn disgusted tonight I am going to state that ONE more time.
I have carefully reviewed the current wildlnad firefighter fire shelter training and it is the same I was given in 1977 when fire shelters were required nation wide after the Battlement Creek Fire and that training is deeply FLAWED.
“The current fire shelter training trains WF to die…not to live!”
And the fire shelter training needs to be completely revamped with a strong emphasis placed on “How Big is Big Enough” so WF aren’t laying down to die in a space about the size of the average family car garage when they need an area that is up to 16.5 acres!
And very few WF know that or have ever even thought about it.
I KNOW that to be a fact because I carried one of those DAMN things for 8 years as a hotshot and I NEVER thought about it. And I trained more than 100 hotshots during that period of time and I NEVER taught that factor to any of them.
How many did more were trained with the deeply training I passed on. At least three Santa Fe Hotshot Crew Bosses who came after me…were trained by me.
I’m definitely not trying to argue with you. I’m just stating that the casino never loses. Ms. McKee’s attorney knows what he’s doing & why.
Yep. You opened my eyes to the fire shelter even though I’ve always thought training to lay down in one with my face in the dirt & hope for the best was not the brightest idea I’d ever heard.
The answer is 5. Five officers of the court.
W
Well, 6 if you count the city of Prescott attorney…..
That’s a good way to put it, the house never loses. Except as I have said before, in those very rare cases where they want to to teach themselves a lesson so they won’t do THAT again (hopefully).
Oh…and one more thing. This case wan’t one of those times. And of course I am speaking about the federal government sometimes wanting to teach themselves a lesson, the state of Arizona may never have one of those cases because they think they never do anything wrong?
The house only loses when it wants to in order to bolster the illusion of legitimacy. You know, so all us common folk think it’s on the level & it’s functioning properly.
That’s interesting that you said they get one right occasionally to teach themselves a lesson. I never thought of it that way. I really think that it occurs to maintain the façade of truth, justice & the American way. Just enough to keep the people (revenue generating subjects) from taking to the streets with torches, pitchforks and coils of boiled rope to nourish the tree of liberty.
W
Generally I think you are right, but what I am thinking about is when EEOC wants to teach someone or some agency a lesson for discrimination, or main justice wants to teach someone or some agency something about violating the Constitution, or Congress wants to teach someone or some agency a lesson about targeting whistle-blowers, they approve themselves to be sued at the federal level.
Or theoretically…maybe even a state Attorney General;s Office, say in Arizonaistan…wants to teach Arizonaistan State Forestry not to pinch pennies and cut too many corners and kill WF in the process even though many of us have been through that process many times and lived to tell about it. I know of some young men that didn’t make it through their first experience fighting fire that way.
But like I said…maybe that never happens in Arizonaistan? Why I remember a time…oh never mind, my old friend just thinks I’m a bullshitter.
A Bullshitter? Just because some people say my stories get better each and very time I retell them. I don’t think that is fair, but we all know life isn’t fair or they wouldn’t make condoms in different sizes. And yes Woodsman…condoms come in other sizes other than small and extra small.
Gary,
Forgive me. I forgot how “sensitive” you were. It does seem that you can certainly dish out the feculence with the best of them, when you want to, however, a might thin skinned on the receiving end, being a former HS Supt and all. Just saying …. Maybe ‘bullshitter’ was a might too harsh for you being so sensitive and all. How about using it as a verb instead, referring to your actions rather than and attack on your character? How about bovinely feculent instead?
On the other hand, you are a very sharp individual, being a former HS Supt and all, and you make some very valid points MOST of the time.
Hmmmm….there is so much to dissect in that one I am just going to leave it alone and say…thank you.
What I meant to say, is you very well MIGHT know that condoms come in sizes other than S, XS and XXS,
But I don’t know everything you or anything else knows or don’t know…so my MO is just to throw everything against the wall to see what sticks while I search for a theme.
Sometimes it works…sometimes it doesn’t. But as I have said before…you have to play the odds.
Here is a link for the Channel 5 KPHO article and video, titled: “Questions about the deaths of 19 hotshots may never be answered, attorney says.”
Published last night at about 11:00 PM and updated this morning.
http://www.wlox.com/story/34169105/questions-about-the-deaths-of-19-hotshots-may-never-be-answered-attorney-says
IMHO, McKee’s attorney makes several dubious comments OR he was misquoted by the reporter:
“We don’t know why the Granite Mountain Hotshots WEREN’T PROVIDED WITH PROPER COMMUNICATIONS EQUIPMENT, said attorney David Abney. “We don’t know why they WEREN’T EQUIPPED WITH PROPER FIRE SHELTERS THAT WERE RATED TO DEAL WITH A WILDFIRE. (EMPHASIS ADDED)
The GMHS was provided with and was utilizing “proper communications equipment” the day they died. It was the actual COMMUNICATIONS in the form of primarily utilizing their GMHS Crew Net frequency “discussing our options’ on whether to stay in the good black or leave. Moreover, the GMHS, under Marsh had a habit of being disingenuous and “deliberately vague” when it came to their position, their intentions, and such.
Secondly, the GMHS were “equipped with proper fire shelters that were rated to deal with a wildfire.” The GMHS was in fact “equipped with proper fire shelters that were rated to deal with a wildfire.” However, the intensity of the fire run that overtook them while attempting to construct a ‘deployment zone’ by hand with chainsaws, instead of running to the BSR, was of significant intensity and proportions. There is not now, nor ever will be, a fire shelter designed (that a WFF can actually carry on the firelines) that could withstand those intensities and/or sustained direct flame contact without fatal fire shelter delamination as occurred on 30 June 2013.
The ONLY man-made device that could have saved the GMHS that day would have been a literal shipping container constructed of actual ‘BLACK BOX’ material identical to that on aircraft containing their audio and data recordings.
THE STATE IS RESPONSIBLE FOR KILLING 19 BRAVE FIREFIGHTERS. Unless this case goes through, we will never find out exactly what the state did wrong that resulted in their deaths,” he said. “What we know so far is gross misconduct, extreme negligence. We don’t know the whole story. And unless we can get back in the trial court, no one ever will.”
“The State” is NOT “responsible for killing 19 brave firefighters.” The GMHS Supervisors are responsible for their deaths. The State may have had some influence but as WTKTT and others have correctly pointed out for years now:
“As the ‘Wildland Firefighters’ posting to this discussion will tell you… the ACTUAL ‘safety’ concerns regarding any kind of ‘tactical move’ of a resource from one place to another are the sole responsibility of the ‘leaders’ of that resource.
‘Fire command’ can make ‘suggestions’ and/or request the ‘movement’ of resources from one place to another all day long. It is ( ultimately ) the sole responsibility of the resource leaders themselves to say whether that ‘move’ from point A to point B can be accomplished safely.
And that really is how it SHOULD be.”
I agree with everything you said…except you left the 800 pound gorilla in the room which I have repeatedly pointed at and yelled, “HEY…THERE’S AN 800 POUND GORILLA IN THE ROOM!”
And I am not going to repeat once again all of my reasons for unequivocally stating this to be true, but if you push me I will try to look them up the way WTKTT looks stuff up on this thread after he teaches me how to do it,
So…here it is ONCE again. THE GRANITE MOUNTAIN HOTSHOTS were NOT properly trained on how to use the adequate fire shelters they were issued or they NEVER would have deployed them in a situation that was NOT survivable with anything short of a big box like you have described. That is just one more reason I think the City of Prescott, the Prescott Fire Department is responsible for the deaths of the crew.
I also think the NWCG should also be sued because they are the ones who developed the deeply flawed training because, need I say it yet once again, they are putting forward training that trains wildalnd firefighters to die, not to run and possibly live IF the area they are thinking about deploying their fire shelters are clearly NOT survivable. Case in point, the crew needed up to 16.5 acres (thanks to the Woodsman’s forestry skills) and they deployed them in an area 20′ by 30”. The size of a garage for God’s sake….IT WASN’T A CLOSE CALL!
It is called FAILURE TO PROPERLY TRAIN…and as I have written many, many times on this thread, the first thing I would have gone for as an investigator is their TRAINING RECORDS. That is where the SMOKING GUN is hidden. That is where the smoking gun is almost always hidden…every internal affairs investigator knows that. GO TO THE SOP’S AND REGULATIONS, THAT IS HOW YOU HANG SOMEONE per rat squad training 101!
This is what I am talking about and the foundation for my argument. Neither Marsh nor Steed were adequately or properly trained and in turn they did not properly or adequately train the crew.
There is ample evidence of that failure…Mr. McDonough’s insistence that the rules are hillbilly is NOT something he made up. He learned that from Marsh.
https://www.policeone.com/legal/articles/1665005-Legal-Corner-Departmental-Liability-for-Failure-to-Train/
And the biggest smoking gun that neither Marsh nor Steed were properly or adequately trained?
All of the extremely stupid statements Darrell Willis made in public regarding what happened to the crew on the YHF. Neither Chief Willis, nor that idiot Chief Frajo knew shit from Shinola when it came to training or managing a hotshot crew.
Having a hard time getting the post in due to new security…but good last posts, Gary!
W
Well…we are after all…more alike than we are different. All of us old fire dogs have to hang together or we will hang separately. Willis and Fraijo are NOT old fire dogs.
This new system may cut down on the extraneous chit chat that I find so interesting. I have found answering 3 questions and entering a number the fourth time before I hit post comment…is working every time.
You may need a calculator with those huge buttons sitting next to you so you can do the math more quickly. Then you might start getting through on the first try………..only kidding! haha
Yes. The damn shelter training. It’s mind numbing to think of the call to attempt to deploy in that space under those conditions. It does have a component of training & shelter indoctrination associated with it. The inhabitants of the Great White Nort have it right – get rid of the damn things! That & hockey are the only claims to fame that I can come up with for the Canadians but they’re 2 real good ones.
Keep your stick on the ice.
Woodruff Key
Compare the prison firefighters working with Darryl Willis to granite mountain—the prison firefighters were instructed to deploy in a space smaller than needed and as things fell apart for the they took it upon themselves to leave the area without instructions from Willis.
Diane,
If you are referring to the small subdivision where the Tennis Court was being designated as a Safety Zone, this was NOT true according to Darrel Willis.
He told me it was based on the uncorroborated assertion of only ONE AZ Prison inmate.
I believe Willis.
What information exits regarding communication with GMHS discussing the options off staying in the black versus coming down from the mountain?
Here is the AZ Court of Appeals, Division One written OPINION for Marcia McKee v. State of Arizona filed December 30, 2016 and posted today.
MARCIA MCKEE, the surviving mother of GRANT QUINN MCKEE, both individually and on behalf of all statutory beneficiaries of GRANT QUINN MCKEE, deceased, Plaintiffs/Appellants,
v.
STATE OF ARIZONA, a public entity; and the ARIZONA STATE FORESTRY DIVISION, a public entity,
Defendants/Appellees.
No. 1 CA-CV 15-0800
Appeal from the Superior Court in Maricopa County Nos. CV2014-009068, CV2014-009069 and V2014-009070 (Consolidated). The Honorable J. Richard Gama, Judge
AFFIRMED
OPINION
Presiding Judge Andrew W. Gould delivered the opinion of the Court, in which Judge Peter B. Swann and Judge Patricia A. Orozco joined.
G O U L D, Judge:
“¶1 Marcia McKee (“Appellant”) appeals from the superior court’s order dismissing her claims for wrongful death and intentional infliction of emotional distress. Appellant argues the court erred n concluding that her son was an employee of the State of Arizona and the Arizona State Forestry Division and, as a result, her claim was barred by the workers’ compensation statutes’ exclusive remedy provision. Appellant also contends she stated a claim for intentional infliction of emotional distress and she should be permitted to sue both the State and the State Forestry Division. For the following reasons, we affirm.”
>
>
>
CONCLUSION
“¶32 For the reasons discussed above, we affirm the superior court’s order dismissing Appellant’s complaint.”
http://www.azcourts.gov/Portals/0/OpinionFiles/Div1/2016/1%20CA-CV%2015-0800.pdf
Thank you. Still ‘reading’ everything.
Ineresting to see that there there was ‘no dissenting opinion’.
Judge Peter Swann and Judge Patricia Orozco just did a “what he said” and let this Andrew Gould guy ( the one just appointed to the Arizona Supreme Court by Arizona Republican Governor Doug Ducey ) write the whole ‘decision’.
Some of what Judge Gould is using as the ‘basis’ for his ‘decisions’ are still issues that NEED to be decided by the Arizona Supreme Court ( and perhaps the United States Supreme Court ).
Judge Gould is still ‘assuming’ that unless the ‘statutes’ say otherwise… the ‘default’ state for an Arizona Agency ( like Arizona Forestry ) is that it is ‘non-jural entity’ and cannot be sued.
That is where the ( forgive the pun ) “jury is still out”.
As for the whole ‘exclusive remedy’ thing ( with regards to workers’ compensation )… Judge Gould also seems to have missed the parts of Arizona Law that cover the ‘exceptions’ to this.
Example: According to Arizona Law… if the place where an employee worked did NOT have the ‘workers compensation’ full ‘contract’ on public and prominent display… and did NOT have readily available forms for employees to ‘exclude’ themselves from these ‘exclusive remedy’ provisions and the employee was NOT ‘advised of his/her rights’ to ‘opt out’ of the ‘exclusive remedy’ provisions… then that employee can be considered NOT ‘bound’ by this ‘exclusive remedy’ bullshit that Arizona Forestry is relying on.
And that’s just ONE of the ‘exceptions’ to this ‘exclusive remedy’ crap.
More later.
This ‘decision’, of course, automatically ‘telegraphs’ what is most likely going to happen when the other Division 1 Appeals Court ‘panel’ gets off its ass and finally issues THEIR appeal ‘decision’ in the 130+ consolidated Yarnell Hill Fire ‘Property Damage’ lawsuits.
Judge Peter Swann sits on BOTH of the panels… and he is now ‘on record’ as believing that Arizona Forestry really is a ‘non-jural’ entity and cannot be sued at any time, by anyone, for any reason.
If he ends up just the sole ‘dissenter’ in the ‘decision’ reached by the other panel… and that panel decides that Arizona Forestry CAN be ‘sued’… then the shit is going to really hit the fan.
And these Judges don’t like that kind of ‘projectile’ doo-doo.
The bottom line, however, is that this issue of whether certain Arizona State ‘agencies’ can ( or cannot ) be sued is an issue that has been resurfacing in Arizona for DECADES.
The issue has never been properly decided by the ‘Arizona Supreme Court’ ( or even further upfield at the United States Supreme Court ).
These may be the cases that finally force that to happen.
Marcia McKee’s AZ Appeals Court case.
“Hotshot verdict: mom cannot sue the state in sons death.”
http://m.dcourier.com/news/2016/dec/30/hotshot-verdict-mom-cant-sue-state-sons-death/?
shewwwwwwww…….deep breath in and out….we knew that was going to play out…but Marcia have the faith…keep the faith and do not read the ignorant comments on that article’s comment wall if it happens…the shadow people are really focused to the process and the proper way to get these folks who have trailed us all and been one up but in it there is sealed raw data that will see the light some day…ok….this decision was anticipated but it should make you aware of the seriousness of what is going on…and how well the ones do not want the facts out…RTS, you know as well as I there is EVEN MORE than what Abney stated in article and purely I do not see it surfacing anytime “soon”…so Marcia just focus to 2017…that we now know your results…Many of us are trying to make sense of where things are heading in 2017. Are we trying to break new ground here, or is it a case of ‘more of the same’ or any missing elements finally going to surface? Are the changes we are all experiencing helping us to move in a more positive direction? or is it weighing us deeper down because others can sleep at night knowing what they know so deeply wrong too I think…in all this do not lose YOU in it Marcia…keep trekking forward head held high and get this is all part of a process of something bigger…keep being the beautiful leader that you are…keep expanding and do not surrender…”pauses” are good too…that was alot to swallow; that news….yet predictable too. You are a tiny woman like my mom probably 5 foot 1 appx lil over 48kg but you have alot of good powerful energy…the pause will bring to you very helpful new friends, travel, new ideas and possibly a change of place of work…and maybe yet another feel for change of where you want to call “home”…but I sure feel fantastic moments to come for you….and for Grant’s extended family and friends too…none of us here will ever give up…the chaos is present Marcia…we know it…the industry failed the fallen and their loved ones on YHF and many fires…yet there is chaos everywhere; political, economic, and cultural changes across the globe…it is the energy moment for it…so it is time to keep gathering the seeds and keep yourself whole and uplifted…Imagine every database, every file, every classified secret, and pharmaceutical or technical invention just “gone” …remember this time on Earth is so tiny to the Eternal one and keep the focus to there vs the ones who continue to wrong you…they seem to be fine to have the door to even more chaos and unrestrained greed . Too many fallen over the decades to think otherwise…stick to the spiritual plane…in the next nine years Marcia many I know will be exposing much that was kept in the dark which in turn WILL diminish the P O W E R S of the large (corporations, governments, religious institutions, etc), and WILL e m p o w e r the small (individuals, communities, truth activists) just as it did in the 60’s—a time (decade) that was good for RTS I am sure…. Do you remember the 60’s and how it changed the lives of so many? the voices of individuals became loud and clear and people discovered their power and used it…may it be with a help of a puff of the magic dragon for some (or too many or not enough)…the birth of amazing artists and musicians and philosophers…not the bubble gum crap we see today…those times echoes today and YOUR VOICE Marcia will one day be such an echo…this is my time to create stable grounds to my life…so my only voice to you is please do not get affected by the decision…adapt and overcome and remember MUCH better days are coming…and if you have unstable chaotic inner not spoken emotions— it’s ok —it is all part of the process—as you know things are different especially with the new news… Happy New Year Marcia and thank you RTS for the update.
any Peloton Cycle bike riders on IM?
also- to understand these deaths…one must understand their lives-
THESE LIVES MATTER!
and maybe in time people you mentioned below Diane will just come out some day
No offense intended Joy…but IF you have what you say you have, there is a pretty good chance it could have made a difference when it really mattered and that was BEFORE this decision was rendered. Nobody should be sitting on any information regarding the deaths of the crew on the YHF.
MY REPLY IN CAPS BELOW—>
Gary Olson says
JANUARY 2, 2017 AT 12:59 AM
No offense intended Joy NONE TAKEN 🙂
…but IF you have what you say you have,
THERE IS AN AREA THAT HAS IT IN COMPLETION—I HAVE PARTIAL DATA—AND IF YOU SAW ONE OF THE JUDGES IN MCKEE CASE IS ONE OF THE JUDGES FROM PROPERTY CASE AND 2 OF THOSE JUDGES HAVE ADDED DATA AS WELL SINCE FALL—SO DO OTHER AREAS BUT NO WAY IN HELL WOULD I PLACE IT HERE WITHOUT HAVING THE SUPPORT OF MY OWN PAID IN FULL LEGAL SUPPORT SHARING HOW I CAN SHARE IT—THIS IS SERIOUS—AND I WILL NOT BE A PERSON TO DO WHAT IS ANOTHER’S DUTY—NOPE…YET IT DOES NOT TAKE A ROCKET SCIENTIST TO KNOW THERE IS MISSING DATA NOT YET SURFACED…
there is a pretty good chance it could have made a difference when it really mattered WELL THAN THAT LAYS ON 2 JUDGES HANDS WHO DO KNOW…AND DID NOT MAKE THE DIFFERENCE—and that was BEFORE this decision was rendered.
I DOUBT IT KNOWING 2 JUDGES AND CERTAIN OTHERS HAVE IT—
Nobody should be sitting on any information regarding the deaths of the crew on the YHF.
WELL, UNFORTUNATELY EVEN CERTAIN LEAKS HAVE GOT DATA TO GO AMISS OR EVEN THE WHOLE SYSTEM CHANGED YET THE RAW INFORMATION EXISTS EVEN IF THEY CHANGED THE SYSTEMS……I AM NOT GETTING ENGAGED IN A BACK AND FORTH ON TOPIC—I SAID IT MANY TIMES BEHIND THE SCENES THERE IS CERTAIN FOLKS WHO DO HAVE THE ADDED DATA AND LIKE MUZZY SAID—I AM DOING…
WTKTT,
Reply to the Hail Mary plan-it makes sense to me that Eric marsh would have initially visualized this plan with others (Cordes etc contributing) but what doesn’t make sense to me is that nowhere is it noted except by maybe Jesse steed that this move to save Yarnell is too dangerous for the firefighters–why wasn’t cordes looking to provide for safety during this plan or do we just not have a record of him and others doing so?
OK I was not coming Back but had to reply to the Hail Mary Plan.
First we guest there might such a plan.
The Problems are many and have little to no fact.
Second The Fire was into Yarnell as stated before Steed was told to bring the crew to the BSR. There was no possible way to assist Yarnell at 1600. Again what could a hand crew do?
By 1600 the fire was moving it would have been to late for any line construction.
Third Ball was sent to check on a tractor line. This was more of a scouting check than anything else. At tis point I think the Fire supervisors were looking for a quick new plan or Hail Mary plan to save what they could it was to late to do any thing.
Forth The Question of the Engine being sent to check on the crew. They were told to go to the BSR.
Two unknowns one were they suppose to be at the BSR?
Or was the thought because they had not herd from the crew that the Engine could see them on the mountain from the BSR?
Fifth and Final we still have no actual proof that Marsh was not with the crew the whole time or that he was at BSR and returned to the crew. Were they just moving to the BSR with no other plan than to be in a location for pickup?
There is just no undisputable evidence of a plan or who may have suggested such a plan. I have no real problem with Ball being asked to check on the ability to push a cat line across and above Glen esla.. Question do we have time to deploy a cat to protect Glen elia
The fire was out preforming the. Expectations of the overhead.
Ill leave it there and go back into retirement.
Good information Bob powers. I didn’t realize that the fire was in town before steed was asked to bring the men down.
Reply to Diane lomas post on
January 2, 2017 at 2:53 pm
>> Diane lomas said…
>>
>> Good information Bob powers.
>> I didn’t realize that the fire was in town before
>> steed was asked to bring the men down.
If we define ‘in town’ as ‘structures now burning’… then it wasn’t.
I believe it’s been confirmed that the very FIRST ‘structures’ within the city limits of Yarnell to have ‘burned’ were the ones out at the Youth Camp, at the western end of Shrine Road, on the northwest corner of Yarnell itself.
As seen in the Yarnell-Gamble video… those structures had NOT yet ‘caught fire’ even as late as 4:27 PM.
The first known ‘confirmation’ that Marsh and Steed might have completed any ‘arguments’ they had been having and that Steed HAD agreed to bring Granite Mountain OUT of the safety of the black at the anchor points comes in the 4:13 PM radio capture.
Here again is a transcript of that Panebaker video radio capture…
————————————————
PANEBAKER VIDEO 161620 STARTS
AT 1612.49 ( 4:12.49 PM )
+0:00 ( 1612.49 / 4:12.49 PM )
( ASM2 – B33 – French to VLAT DC10 911 ): …plan a left turn out back to Phoenix.
+0:03 ( 1612.52 / 4:12.52 PM )
( DC10 VLAT 911 ): Allright. We can do all the way around. That’ll work
+0:05 ( 1612.54 / 4:12.54 PM )
( ASM2 – B33 – French ): I’m at one-fifty.
+0:06 ( 1612.55 / 4:12.55 PM )
( DC10 VLAT 911 ): Perfect. Spacing looks good.
+0:08 ( 1612.57 / 4:12.57 PM )
( Unknown ): ASM2, Copy that… behind the hills is where you place Granite Mountain?
+0:13 ( 1613.02 / 4:13.02 PM )
( ASM2 – B33 – Burfiend? ): They’re on the corner just repeatedly saying that they’re comfortable and that’s not credible. ASK him whether Alpha can be placed WITH them.
NOTE: A few seconds later… Someone OTHER than who ASM2 (B33) was just talking to ( someone with what sounds like a Cajun accent? ) does exactly what ASM2 (B33) just TOLD them to do. He calls Granite Mountain directly and asks them to report their STATUS.
+0:41 ( 1613.30 / 4:13.30 PM )
( Unknown ): Granite Mountun ( Five? Fire? )… Wuz yo stay-tus rat now?
NOTE: Even though this ‘unkown’ caller wanting to know GM’s ‘status’ at this moment asked for ‘Granite Mountain’ specifically ( and not ‘Division Alpha’ )… DIVSA Eric Marsh responds immediately on BEHALF of Granite Mountain before ACTING GM Superintendent Jesse Steed even had a chance to say anything at all…
+0:54 ( 1613.43 / 4:13.43 PM )
( DIVSA Eric Marsh ): Well the guys… uh… Granite… is makin’ their way out the exact escape route from this mornin’… an’ it heads… ah… (pause) SOUTH. (slight pause) mid-slope, cuttin’ over.
———————————————–
So right there, as early as 4:13 PM ( and right smack in the middle of this 30 minute period where the SAIT said there were ‘no direct communications’ with Marsh or GM ), we have Eric Marsh himself confirming ( to some still-unknown person ) that GM had, in fact, already left the safe black and were already ‘on their way’ down to the Boulder Springs Ranch.
We also have a VISUAL that the fire had not quite yet even started burning the structures out at the end of Shrine Road even as late as 4:27 PM.
In the Yarnell-Gamble video, Blue Ridge Hotshot Ronald Gamble was filming from the driver’s side seat of one of the BR Crew Carriers while it was still parked out there at the Youth Camp.
What he was ‘filming’ ( at 4:27 PM ) was the fire just then actually coming over the crest of the ridge just to the north of the Youth Camp.
But the ‘Youth Camp’ area wasn’t engulfed in flames yet and even the strucutres ‘out there’ hadn’t started burning yet.
In the AUDIO part of that video comes the SECOND confirmation ( from Eric Marsh ) that the Granite Mountain Hotshots were ALREADY ‘on the move’ and ‘coming from the heel of the fire’, even before the fire had reached that northwest boundary of Yarnell there at that ‘Youth Camp’.
Once again… here is one of the possible transcripts for that ‘Yarnell-Gamble’ video… and the exact ‘times’ involved…
————————————————-
YARNELL-GAMBLE VIDEO STARTS
AT 1627.26 ( 4:27.26 PM )
+0:00 ( 1627.26 / 4:27.26 PM )
Siren from one of the Peeples Valley Engines staged at the Youth Camp is heard in the background. This was a ‘prearranged’ warning signal to tell the firefighters working further west out in Harper Canyon to stop what they are doing and return to the Youth Camp ASAP.
+0:01 ( 1627.27 / 4:27.27 PM )
( Not confirmed, but definitely sounds like OPS1 Todd Abel ): Copy… uh… come down and appreciate if you could come a little faster but it’s yours to figure it out.
+0:12 ( 1627.38 / 4:27.38 PM )
( Confirmed: Eric Marsh ): Uh… they’re comin’ from the heel of the fire.
+0:15 ( 1627.41 / 4:27.41 PM )
( Confirmed: Brian Frisby ): Structue Group core, Blue Ridge Hotshots, on TAC 1.
YARNELL-GAMBLE VIDEO ENDS
AT 1627.44 ( 4:27.44 PM )
——————————————————-
Short and simple.
The crew at the rest spot prior to 1600.
Sent messages over their Cell Phones that the fire was Running into Yarnell. Did I say burning Houses? NO. What the crew could see was the fire making a hard run at the town.
They are a hard one hour hike to Yarnell from their position.
How much would be left if they could even get there.
They were to the deployment site in 45 minuets. The fire over ran them.
They were not in a position to help Yarnell or any place else. My conclusion they did not move for some Hail Mary saving a town.
Hey Bob, isn’t retirement great! So, why in your opinion did the crew move?
Norb–
My opinion has always been they moved to be in a location to be picked up or meet up with their vehicles.
Bad decision, Bad selected Rout, Bad Timing.
They moved to the BSR to be picked up.
NO DRAMA.
NO STRUCTURE PROTECKTION
NO HAIL MARRY.
Bob is right of course, we don’t have any evidence there was a “Hail Mary” plan which is what I have always said when I have been asked about it.
It is however, the ONLY thing anyone has ever suggested that makes any sense to me for their reckless move.
For example, IF they were just moving to the BSR for a pickup point, why not wait 15 minutes and walk through the new black that was just about to be created? Why was it so important for them to get to the edge of town BEFORE the wildfire?
And once again, I don’t believe Marsh and whoever else helped devise such a plan would actually work and save the town, that was never the plan (I believe).
The plan was to LOOK GOOD while failing in their mission so they would get good press, be the heroes of the YHF because they tried so gallantly to save the town and thereby save their crew from the ax that was probably going to be used by the Prescott City Council to kill their dream of a Type I crew.
It was supposed to be a replay of the Doce Fire, once the town is cheering you as heroes, its even tougher to go to the unemployment line. I know…I have been there and done that.
Funny story about that. When I was sent to fight wildfires around Asheville, North Carolina as part of a three man extended dispatch/logistics team we did what all of the assholes who go out on those kind of jobs do, we went out on the town at night to party.
Once the locals found out we were “firefighters” there to save them from all of the wildfires, we were seated at the band’s table by Bill Stanley himself (who owned Bill Stanley’s Bluegrass and Barbecue Pig Pit or whatever it was called) and all of the women asked us to clog with them, even though I didn’t have any idea what cloggin’ was before that night. My back actually got sore I had so many drunk hillbillies and townspeople pattin’ it and thankin’ me for my service. What a joke, we spent all day in an office talking on the telephone and filling out resource order forms.
That the only time I ever remember anybody thanking me for anything while I was a WF. Back then, before WUI, citizens neither knew or cared who we were or what we did just as long as the smoke from the wildfires didn’t hover over their towns.
Things have really changed and we are now even going to have our own movie…bitchin’. I mean, “Always” was a good movie and real tear jerker but that was really about slurry bomber pilots and not about WF per se.
And welcome back Bob, we need your expertise and oversight…even if I disagree with you from time to time. You still know a hellavuh lot more than I do about fightin’ fire. Now of course no one knows more than I do about being a hotshot, RTS comes in a distant second though.
Gary,
You posted: “The plan was to LOOK GOOD while failing in their mission so they would get good press, be the heroes of the YHF because they tried so gallantly to save the town and thereby save their crew from the ax that was probably going to be used by the Prescott City Council to kill their dream of a Type I crew.
“It was supposed to be a replay of the Doce Fire, ….
I totally agree with this.
And you are so right about knowing more than anyone about being a Hot Shot. I bow before you from a distance …. Oh Mighty Bullshitter
Happy New Year.
Ooch…the ole self deprecating feign with a back handed compliment given tongue in cheek is a play right of the Niccolò Machiavelli playbook.
Well played RTS…well played.
So we know anyone on the fire who had a cabin accent?
Reply to Diane lomas post on January 2, 2017 at 6:34 am
>> Diane lomas said…
>>
>> WTKTT,
>> Reply to the Hail Mary plan-it makes sense to me
>> that Eric marsh would have initially visualized this
>> plan with others (Cordes etc contributing) but
>> what doesn’t make sense to me is that nowhere
>> is it noted except by maybe Jesse steed that
>> this move to save Yarnell is too dangerous for the
>> firefighters–why wasn’t cordes looking to provide
>> for safety during this plan or do we just not have
>> a record of him and others doing so?
As the ‘Wildland Firefighters’ posting to this discussion will tell you… the ACTUAL ‘safety’ concerns regarding any kind of ‘tactical move’ of a resource from one place to another are the sole responsibility of the ‘leaders’ of that resource.
‘Fire command’ can make ‘suggestions’ and/or request the ‘movement’ of resources from one place to another all day long. It is ( ultimately ) the sole responsibility of the resource leaders themselves to say whether that ‘move’ from point A to point B can be accomplished safely.
And that really is how it SHOULD be.
Perfect example of this is what we APPEAR to be hearing in the ‘Yarnell-Gamble’ video itself.
Whoever it was that *appears* to have been urging Eric Marsh to “get to town quickly” also made it clear that it was Marsh’s ‘responsibility’ to ‘figure out HOW to do it’ ( safely ).
Here again is one of the possible ‘transcripts’ for the conversation(s) being heard in that Yarnell-Gamble video…
—————————————————————–
YARNELL-GAMBLE VIDEO STARTS AT 1627.26 ( 4:27.26 PM )
+0:00 ( 1627.26 / 4:27.26 PM )
Siren from one of the Peeples Valley Engines staged at the Youth Camp is heard in the background. This was a ‘prearranged’ warning signal to tell the firefighters working further west out in Harper Canyon to stop what they are doing and return to the Youth Camp ASAP.
+0:01 ( 1627.27 / 4:27.27 PM )
( Not confirmed, but definitely sounds like OPS1 Todd Abel ): Copy… uh… come down and appreciate if you could come a little faster but it’s yours to figure it out.
+0:12 ( 1627.38 / 4:27.38 PM )
( Confirmed: Eric Marsh ): Uh… they’re comin’ from the heel of the fire.
+0:15 ( 1627.41 / 4:27.41 PM )
( Confirmed: Brian Frisby ): Structue Group core, Blue Ridge Hotshots, on TAC 1.
YARNELL-GAMBLE VIDEO ENDS AT 1627.44 ( 4:27.44 PM )
—————————————————————-
Notice that whoever that was ( apparently ) telling Eric Marsh that he would ‘appreciate’ it if Marsh could ‘come a little FASTER’ also ends that ‘request’ with something like “it’s YOURS to figure it out” ( how to do it SAFELY ).
What ( ultimately ) caused the tragedy itself was that no one involved with Granite Mountain had the good sense ( or the spinal fluid ) to respond to the ‘request’ with…
“It cannot be done SAFELY at this time, given the distance to travel and the current fire behavior… so we are not ‘coming down'”
Initially granite mountain said no and asked whoever was making the request to ask blue ridge hotshots who were closer. Then granite mountain started coming down.
Wish we knew what doughnut overheard on radio.
Reply to Diane lomas post on
January 2, 2017 at 4:30 pm
>> Diane lomas said…
>>
>> Initially granite mountain said no and
>> asked whoever was making the request
>> to ask blue ridge hotshots who were closer.
And that has always been SOLELY according to OPS2 Paul Musser.
I have always had my doubts that we are really getting an accurate accounting of that ( supposed ) 3:42 PM conversation between OPS2 Paul Musser and DIVSA Eric Marsh.
Isn’t it odd that this ‘conversation’ supposedly took place over an open ( and HIGHLY monitored ) TAC frequency… but no one else has EVER testified hearing this ‘conversation’ or what it actually ‘contained’.
>> Diane lomas also said…
>>
>> Then granite mountain started coming down.
Correct.
According to OPS2 Paul Musser… Eric Marsh had REFUSED Musser’s request to ‘come down’. Then ( just minutes later )… Eric Marsh is already on his way “off the top” and ‘scouting’ a route to the Boulder Springs Ranch so Granite Mountain CAN ‘come down’.
>> Diane lomas also said…
>>
>> Wish we knew what doughnut
>> overheard on radio.
Yep.
So it is possible that Eric marsh did not initially refuse to come down mountain but began planning a route for granite mountain to take off the mountain. It’s possible the conversation between marsh and Musser never happened?
Reply to Diane lomas post on
January 2, 2017 at 9:33 pm
>> Diane lomas said….
>>
>> So it is possible that Eric marsh did
>> not initially refuse to come down
>> mountain but began planning a
>> route for granite mountain to take
>> off the mountain.
Yes. It;s possible.
Do YOU believe that what OPS2 Paul Musser reported about that 3:42 radio conversation with DIVSA Marsh is “The TRUTH…. the WHOLE TRUTH… and nothing BUT the TRUTH”?
Personally.. I do NOT.
>> Diane lomas also said….
>>
>> It’s possible the conversation
>> between marsh and Musser
>> never happened?
Oh… I believe it most certainly DID ‘happen’.
We DO, in fact, HEAR OPS2 Paul Musser actually ‘calling out’ to DIVSA Eric Marsh right at 3:42 PM, while Musser was still physically present in the Sickles Ranch Road area and now ‘turning his attention’ to Yarnell itself.
What we do NOT have a ‘recording’ of is the conversation that took place between Musser and Marsh.
All we have ever had to go on there is just Paul Musser’s “word for it” regarding what was actually said during this radio call.
No one has ever even determined if Brendan McDonough himself actually HEARD this conversation between Musser and Marsh over that open TAC channel they were using.
WTKTT said:
“As the ‘Wildland Firefighters’ posting to this discussion will tell you… the ACTUAL ‘safety’ concerns regarding any kind of ‘tactical move’ of a resource from one place to another are the sole responsibility of the ‘leaders’ of that resource.
‘Fire command’ can make ‘suggestions’ and/or request the ‘movement’ of resources from one place to another all day long. It is ( ultimately ) the sole responsibility of the resource leaders themselves to say whether that ‘move’ from point A to point B can be accomplished safely.
And that really is how it SHOULD be.”
As an active wff in a leadership position (and for what ever the heck it’s worth) I officially corroborate this statement. Good job. I could tell you some stories about ‘pressure from above’,,,, but, I don’t need to regale everyone with that ridiculousness, what you have said is true. Period.
Woodsman
And I wholeheartedly second Woodsman’s corroboration of the claim that WTKTT posted:
“As the ‘Wildland Firefighters’ posting to this discussion will tell you… the ACTUAL ‘safety’ concerns regarding any kind of ‘tactical move’ of a resource from one place to another are the sole responsibility of the ‘leaders’ of that resource.
‘Fire command’ can make ‘suggestions’ and/or request the ‘movement’ of resources from one place to another all day long. It is ( ultimately ) the sole responsibility of the resource leaders themselves to say whether that ‘move’ from point A to point B can be accomplished safely.
And that really is how it SHOULD be.”
And that is how it is really accomplished by those competent supervisors that hold their ground and comply with their premier supervisory responsibility to provide for the safety and welfare of those they are responsible for, NO MATTER WHAT any higher authority requests, directs, or orders them to do.
Just to be clear…
I did not mean to ABSOLVE ( in ANY way ) the ‘others’ in ‘fire command’ at the Yarnell Hill Fire from any liability for the deaths of those men.
ADOSH itself established that there was all kinds of ‘gross negligence’ and ‘wilfull misconduct’ going on that day that all ‘contributed’ to the 19 fatalaties that took place in that fucked-up Arizona Forestry workplace.
I was just trying to answer Diane’s question.
Yes… the people in ‘fire command’ ALWAYS have their own ‘responsibilities’ for keeping their employees ‘safe’… but ( as I pointed out )… it is ultimately each resource’s own leadership that is *directly* responsible for the safety of the resources ‘under their ‘direct’ supervision’.
As Gary Olson and others have posted–Granite Mountain s plan to come off the mountain and into Yarnell was to look good while failing in their mission to support their extended employment with the Prescott fire dept etc makes sense to me although I can’t help but notice that that goes against their mantra to be not to seem.
Do we know anyone on the fire who spoke with a cajun accent ?
/
And remember…#blackriflesmatter
Yes, back in the 70’s, friend Jeff had some of the Magic Dragon smoke–so I thought would at his urging try the shit out. Unlike President Clinton, I took a hell of a drag. It did not take long until my whole being shrunk to about two inches in height. I could not understand how I was driving and still seeing over the steering wheel so it must have taken an hour to get that vehicle home–a rural desert road but we made it fine. It certainly did give me a different outlook on life, but after that experience I have never tried it again. However, I do feel in America, the land of the brave and freeman, that any individual that cares to use it ought to go for it without repercussions of the law. People are being relieved of pain and it is even said to cure certain ailments and safer than drinking as far as I can understand.
This bull shit that your kids will get it and go to stronger things because of peer pressure would be because you did not instill the good values in that child to begin with or the DNA is such in that child that any type of instruction and correction will not help–that person will grow into a psychopath despite all your efforts. Fortunately few children are that way–so proper training works well for most cases.
The debate goes on–but your law enforcement benefits from the BS since they get billions of dollars fighting the doper scene, yet doping has only increased with all their efforts. Law enforcement has succeeded in filling the prisons with dopers when they could do better work chasing child molesters, rapists, burglars, robbers, murderers, kid nappers, Clinton types in white collar crimes, and so forth. Granted many dopers get into such crimes, but many do not–yet they are arrested when they ought to be in treatment centers if that far along. Holland has it right–cordon off areas for dopers only–there are plenty of slums for the slum type and you can find plenty of upgrade areas for the rich and famous–many who are also dopers.
Now the rich folks or those with plenty money can afford medical dope–while many of those of insufficient funds have to rely upon their dope peddler or grow their own in their private areas. Arizona has not advanced enough to allow this–they are still benefiting too much from the money generated by the prison jobs, jails and policing efforts. In fact new prisons have sprung up in recent years–but then now you can go to jail for debt–not paying fines and many of the poor can’t meet those demands. Debtors prisons were supposed to be an English thing and done away with in America, but not so. Some would call these people loosers, but I can tell you that the minimum wage will barely support a single person and not even a small family.
So will things change? Hell no, they will get worse so we will adapt best we can. Meantime big business will allow greed to override good and proper actions and money will continue to be the pursuit of happiness for many. Do not expect the FS to stop dropping retardant on your houses any time soon if ever. And the fishes in the deep blue sea will continue to die in bunches while old folks diminished in health will join them. And we will continue to hand out awards to those responsible.
My opinions but I am an old dog and hard to teach me new tricks.
And of course this ruling is EXACTLY what I have been saying for quite some time now and sometimes I hate it when I am right. This is one of those times.
I also agree with the ruling based on the law, which is also what I have been saying all along. There is however…one more thing I want to remind everyone of…and that is the lawsuits should never have been filed against the State of Arizona in the first place because they didn’t do anything wrong that was outside of the boundaries of Chaos which is what happens on every wildfire when they are going to hell in a hand basket, which I have also written many times.
So once again…what made the Yarnell Hill Fire different than all of the other wildfires in history except for the Loop Fire and the Battlement Creek Fire, is the reckless, negligent and wanton disregard for almost all of the wildland firefighting rules that have been developed over more than 100 years at the cost of countless lives (because I don’t we even know how many died in the Idaho fires of 1910) in the way Eric Marsh and Darrell Willis managed the crew..
I guess there must be reasons why the City of Prescott couldn’t be sued (other than the state has deeper pockets), but I have always said and I still think that all of the fault lies with the City of Prescott and the Prescott Fire Department because they enabled Eric Marsh and Darrell Willis who were both manifestly unqualified and unfit to manage a hotshot crew to have one to play with.
But assigning the blame for the deaths of the crew where it belongs is a Rubicon that most people are unwilling and unable to cross. Shame on them.
And the biggest mistake Marcia’s attorneys made?
In their arrogance they didn’t ask me to help them conduct an investigation of what happened, interview witnesses and write their complaint, so…
Yes, there is blame for the deaths that extend beyond the sole responsibility above & beyond the direct crew supervisors. I’ll state just one example: the city fire department. The city fire department should have never been permitted to field a type 1 ‘hotshot’ crew in the first place for many reasons.
I wasn’t clear when I whole-heartedly agreed with wtktt’s summary of where ultimately responsibility lays. There are (in my opinion) many other pressures, demands & other factors at play which have debated over & over by many of us here.
The crew died. It was more than just the failure of the immediate crew supervision. The situation was created in the first place in order for that to happen. How & why was the situation created in the first place? Who did what (or didn’t do) when that led to the outcome?
W
And I wasn’t fully clear when I was just trying to answer Diane’s question about IF there HAD been a ‘Hail Mary’ plan… why Gary Cordes wasn’t doing more to make sure it was a ‘safe’ plan.
I am by no means ‘absolving’ anyone from any responsibility in the deaths of those 19 men in that fucked-up Arizona Forestry workplace.
SAFETY is EVERYONE’S concern.
But if someone asks a CREW to ‘walk’ from point A to point B ( for whatever reason )… it really IS the final responsibility of the people who run that crew to say whether that ‘walk from point A to point B’ is both ‘possible’ AND ‘safe to do’.
I don’t think there has ever really been any argument about that ‘reality’.
HAPPY NEW YEAR EVERYONE HERE AND WORLD!
so all those locals who are Alex Jones fans…think trouble is about to happen come the new year…AGW believers (global warming)…PGD (power grid down) folks…zerohedge fans…drudgereport folks…https://youtu.be/igPkHADOyeE…https://youtu.be/_lZUdGrbIDc… I don’t know…do I even say or type HAPPY new year to you folks…Next year ends in a 7. biggest one-day stock drop in Wall Street history happened in 1987, Asian crisis was in 1997, worst global meltdown since the Great Depression got rolling in 2007…is America awake for the possible or impossibles for 2017? There is even in 2017 a movie due out…no not just the Granite Mountain one but one actually called T R O U B L E…
Besides a new year…it is that time of the year:
the legislation ( and the public ‘Yarnell Hill Memorial Site Board’ it created ) EXPIRES on December 31, 2016.
It also says that on the following day, January 1, 2017, the ‘Arizona State Parks Board’ shall then be solely responsible for administering the ‘fund’ which was also created by the self-repealing legislation.
As said 10-11-16 by wwtktt—
this ‘Yarnell Hill Memorial Site Board’ only has until December 31, 2016 to finish trying to ‘influence’ the DESIGN and the ACCESS RESTRICTIONS for this new State Park… and then ‘Arizona State Parks’ becomes the sole authority in charge of setting the ‘rules’ for this new PUBLIC State Park….that is less than one hour now…
Muzzy…since 9-2-16…I am still doing exactly just that… nail down all the details
Peeples Valley FD update: chief emailed 12-29-16 13:31pm asking exactly what I needed even though he has had it since June and as well in our November meeting but I recapped it…12-29-16 17:49pm and still NOTHING on YFD but seen the chief at the post office shortly after my own heart concerns…”beware of chiropractors” when you have heart stuff going on—one can have a stroke when doing neck manipulation—our cardio said it happen to one of his patients; age 27.
I dreamnt about an accident that is why I asked for details Diane on 12-24-16—in dream I was one of the side bystanders that got hit…
I also had a dream the other day with my deceased aunt in it and she told me stuff in dream that down right freaked my brothers and mother out that ONLY my mom and her sis could ONLY know that was confirmation that my aunt came through and it was real time stuff as well as a private event between my mom and her in early 80’s to confirm it was a message to my mom for now today as a message to get to her. I even explained to my mom to how my aunt passed on so she can further look into it….I spent alot ALOT of funds this month on my TN fire/MS family to get them situated and it screwed up some of them up health wise…good people too so it was hard that even a Harry and David delivery is not gonna change the situation (I so love their pears)….I am tired of the manufactured bullshits made by man going on in this world including the firefighting industry…that I am starting to think the bible’s revelations 16:3 and the RED is probably the color of the sea/ocean once slurry drop glazed creeks/rivers/bays/etc hit the ocean and it kills every little living thing as said in bible and ask people in the field as they pay attention to mid CA to Canada Pacific Region as that area which is well doused with wildfires DO SEE red in the sea already…and lots of dead sea creatures…and I am not speaking of “red tides”
Wow. I love all the comments…I really remember it being 1068 comments…I have alot of reading…but been reading h t tp s : //w w w .amazon.c o m/Wildfire-Reader-Century-Failed-Forest/dp/1597260878 and I lost a relative on 12-28-16 due to heart failure- over in Louisiana; age 72.
Bill Gabbert has an awesome piece of art I got this month— fantastic piece of firefighting art—thank you bunches Bill-
http://fineartamerica.com/profiles/bill-gabbert.html?tab=artwork
more names to the cast:
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt3829920/fullcredits?ref_=tt_cl_sm#cast
what was the top 3 discoveries in 2016 in regards to Wildfires or and YHF or other fires…
what does people want to learn in 2017…in regards to what keeps us coming here…what is it we await….
https://www.instagram.com/p/BOWUtsqgPZv/?tagged=granitemountain
the trail has been a real success and it has helped locals get out and hike…so I have enjoyed the new park…been alot of foggy view days in December…
https://www.instagram.com/p/BOUuLEQhgOR/?tagged=granitemountain
https://www.instagram.com/p/BNpzrX_BpA7/?tagged=granitemountain
neat pic:
https://www.instagram.com/p/BNfSrsEgd46/?tagged=granitemountain
Thank you for the photos.
I see that people are ( as predicted ) ‘leaving stuff’ at the deployment site itself. ( T-Shirts, etc. ). I wonder if those things will be left in place, or ‘removed’ as soon as the rent-a-ranger spots them.
I also still think the ‘lobster cages filled with rocks’ and the CHAINS between them was a very poor choice.
The crosses look like they are permanently ‘in prison’ out there in some kind of bizarre boondock jailcell.
I also think it was a poor choice to ‘spread out’ the memorial markers on that rented right-of-way across Arizona State Trust Land ( and not on the park grounds itself ).
One of the biggest ‘themes’ throughout this tragic story is how ‘close’ they all were ( as a unit ) and how they all ‘stayed together’… but then they decide to ‘isolate’ each of the markers and ‘separate’ all of them giving each one this sense of ‘separation from the others’.
It still seems that if they were going to have BIO plaques… they should have been consistent with that ‘theme’ of ‘togetherness’ and put them all together somewhere… not ‘spread out’ in isolation/loneliness like they did.
Just my opinion(s).
Your comments changed my thinking—-keeping the men together is important-as you stated they died together and should be kept together throughout the memorial site. I assume that the chains were important to some of the loved ones in order to protect this area.
Just had a thought– What a contrast from this treatment of the deployment site to when the men were initially found. At that time (night of 6/30/2013 until investigators arrived the following morning) the site was not totally secured; items were removed and we don’t know what else was altered in this area overnight.
Good point…I didn’t think of that, but you are right, they should have been kept together and not left alone on that godforsaken mountain.
Joy,
I’m not sure if this is what you are asking about or if it is even possible but I think it is important to accomplish an interview with individuals who weren’t interviewed fot the SAIT or ADOSH reports: such as Dan Sullivan,Paul Morin,County Supervisor, etc
Ronald Gamble may be available as he is no longer with Blue Ridge hotshots and working in Prescott.
People that have attempted to introduce new evidence on the Yarnell fire incident are told that the investigation is closed. Both Joy and wild land fire fighter Holly Neil can attest to that. You would think in a murder that the investigation and new evidence would always be considered. Some have been exonerated by new evidence and murder cases should never be closed. New evidence and better forensic methods has convicted many cold murder cases.
Well in the case of Yarnell it was never investigated that way. But some would say it should have been considering the negligence involved that killed those young wild land fire fighters. Without holding responsible the parties that were responsible for the deaths, these type negligent actions will continue to kill these young wild land fire fighters.
Needless to say, those that write about this and those that will publish books and reviews giving the real reasons those men died will save young lives down the line. There are plenty of men that bossed on the Yarnell fire that need these lessons–maybe some of them are already reconsidering how they risk their young subordinates lives for no good reason as they did in the Yarnell Fire.
It was certainly a needless sacrifice of lives–and for what–so some asshole could look good in his attempt to save structures?
Charlie,
Would that be Gary Cordes and Paul Musser?
good luck Diane…
Reply to Joy A. Collura post on December 31, 2016 at 11:47 pm
>> Joy A. Collura said…
>>
>> more names to the cast:
>> http://www.imdb.com/title/tt3829920/fullcredits?ref_=tt_cl_sm#cast
Still very ODD that they REFUSE to say which ‘real life’ persons the main characters are playing, even though that information has long since leaked out in media articles and on the actors’ own social media pages.
And you do still have to love the ‘Yarnell Police Department’ character.
There was ( of course ) never any such person.
Reply to Diane Lomas post on December 30, 2016 at 6:13 pm
>> Diane Lomas said…
>>
>> THE HAIL MARY PLAN
>>
>> I have brought this topic up before and it was briefly discussed
>> but there wasn’t closure for me.’
>>
>> It appears that Eric Marsh may have been persuaded by this plan to undertake a
>> move that those in the field must have known was dangerous and ill-advised.
Diane… in some of the various ‘discussions’ that HAVE taken place regarding this possible ‘last ditch-effort’ dozer-line plan ( now referred to as the ‘Hail Mary Plan’ ), it became evident that it might be just ‘too simplistic’ to assume that if it happened, that it was ‘authored’ by people OTHER than ‘Eric Marsh’… and was then just ‘presented’ to him as either a ‘suggestion’… or perhaps even a direct ‘order’.
One of the more likely ‘scenarios’ is that this ‘plan’ ( if it really existed ) *might* have actually been ‘authored’ by DIVSA Eric Marsh HIMSELF… or simply ‘co-authored’ between Marsh and others… such as OPS2 Paul Musser and SPGS1 Gary Cordes… and ( maybe ) even OPS1 Todd Abel.
Eric Marsh himself was the one RECORDED on the ‘radio’ telling ‘fire command’, at 3:42 PM, that the fireline was now ALREADY ‘moving south, TOWARDS Yarnell’, and that it had already marched right through that massive west-to-east retardant line laid out in the bowl by Air Attack ‘Bravo 3’ ( Rusty Warbis and Paul Lenmark ) to try and ‘protect Yarnell’.
So from his ‘excellent’ vantage point out on the Weaver Ridge… DIVSA Eric Marsh could SEE better than ‘anyone’ what the fire was now DOING… what it was GOING to do ( march right into Yarnell and Glen Ilah )… AND ( most importantly )… DIVSA Eric Marsh had ( as early as 3:42 PM ) the BEST VIEW of that whatever ‘possibilities’ might remain to do anything at all to try and prevent the fire from entering the populated areas.
In fact… Eric Marsh might have been ‘formulating ideas/plans’ in his mind about some ‘last-ditch efforts’ to protect Yarnell and Glen Ilah even BEFORE he reported ( at 3:42 PM ) that the fire WAS now ‘headed into Yarnell’.
We still have no idea WHY Eric Marsh suddenly and mysteriously insisted ( circa 3:26 PM ) that Blue Ridge Hotshot Superintendent Brian Frisby drop everything he was doing at the time ( and he WAS ‘very busy’ with his OWN crew down in the Sesame area ) and then ‘eat dust’ for 2 miles just to schlep all the UP to where Eric Marsh was out on the western ridge so they could have another ‘face to face’ meeting.
Brian Frisby has never fully explained this ‘request’ from Marsh… or whether Frisby even had any ‘idea’ WHY Marsh was asking for this second ‘face to face’ at such a critical time, and just before everything was about to start hitting the fan.
But common sense would say that at least one of the reasons Marsh was insisting on Frisby ‘coming all the way up there’ at that time, instead of just ‘discussing’ whatever it was Marsh had on his mind over the radio… was because Marsh wanted Frisby to SEE SOMETHING that Marsh thought could only be fully SEEN from HIS ‘vantage point’ up there on that western ridge.
If that is the case… then what could that have been?
Is it possible that even as early as 3:26 PM, when Marsh insisted Frisby ‘come up’, that Marsh had already ‘SEEN’ some ‘possibility’ for an additional ’emergency dozer line’ that might connect the southern part of the ‘Sesame clearing’ to the fully-improved driveway of the Boulder Springs Ranch… and that might function as a good ‘last line of defense’ for Yarnell and Glen Ilah?
Because not very long after that botched attempt at this second ‘face-to-face’ meeting between Marsh and Frisby would come an ‘order’ from SPGS1 Gary Cordes to Blue Ridge Hotshot turned Bulldozer-boss Cory Ball to go ‘scout out a location’ for that very thing there to the ‘southwest’ of Yarnell.
So it does, in fact, remain crucial to KNOW if Brian Frisby himself knows anything more about WHY it was that Marsh was ‘insisting’ on that second ‘face-to-face’ at that crucial time of day that Sunday.
** PROOF THAT THERE WAS ‘A PLAN’…
From page 11 of the Blue Ridge Hotshots ( redacted ) ‘Unit Logs’, near the end of Blue Ridge Hotshot Cory Ball’s ( signed ) ‘Unit Log’…
References for this ‘Unit Log’ entry…
BRIHC = Blue Ridge Interagency Hotshot Crew
‘Structure Group One’ = Direct reference to SPGS1 ‘Gary Cordes’.
‘back to Dozer Line’ = This is referring to the already-existing ‘Dozer Line’ out in the ‘Sesame’ area that Yavapai County Bullodozer operator Paul Morin and HEQB/DOZB Cory Ball HAD been working on prior to 4:00 PM.
————————————————————————————————-
1600??:
BRIHC disengaging to safety zone.
BRIHC one informs Structure Group One they are pushing everyone out of subdivision.
( NEXT LINE IS REDACTED ).
Structure group one assigns me and one other to locate possibility of dozer line to southwest of Yarnell.
Acquire ATV: travel into subdivision back to Dozer line.
Multiple structures fully engulfed and multiple spot fires in subdivision.
Notify structure group one about fire and structures on corner of manzanita and lakewood
( NEXT LINE IS REDACTED ).
Started evacuations of subdivision.
Helitanker drops water near manzanita junction.
Inquiry about helitanker availability.
Told there are other priorities.
( NEXT LINE IS REDACTED ).
Evacuations for next couple of hours.
Signed: ( REDACTED, but most certainly Cory Ball’s signature ) 7 / 1 / 2013
——————————————————————————————————
Breaking this down… we have this…
“1600??: BRIHC disengaging to safety zone.”
The 1600 ( 4:00 PM ) time on this is roughly CORRECT. That IS about the time that the Blue Ridge Hotshots who had ‘spread out’ along the ‘Sesame Cutover’ road to try and ‘improve it’ were told to RTO ( Reverse Tool Order ) and RUN back to their vehicles parked at the Youth Camp, and then immediately continue ‘evacuating’ down to the common ‘Safety Zone’ at the Ranch House Restaurant parking lot.
“BRIHC one informs Structure Group One they are pushing everyone out of subdivision.”
Again… the ‘sequencing’ here is roughly correct. It was AFTER the Blue Ridge Hotshots reached their buggies and began leaving the Youth Camp that Blue Ridge Hotshot Superintendent Brian Frisby and Blue Ridge Captain Trueheart Brown started ‘bombing around’ the ‘Youth Camp’ area in their UTV yelling at the other firefighters to “get the hell out of here… right now”.
So it can be assumed that these ‘Unit Log’ entries of Ball’s were being written down in basically ‘sequential order’, as best as he could recall.
So now here comes the crucial entry in Ball’s ‘Unit Log’…
“Structure group one assigns me and one other to locate possibility of dozer line to southwest of Yarnell.”
There it is.
Actual ( signed ) ‘testimony’ from Blue Ridge Hotshot Cory Ball that there WAS at least SOME attempt at a ‘last-ditch-effort’ PLAN to see if anything could be done to stop the fireline from advancing straight into Yarnell and Glen Ilah.
If we accept that these ‘Unit Log’ entries really are being presented in ‘sequential order’ ( as in… first this happened… then that happened… and then this other thing happened )… then Cory Ball seems to be recalling that he was now given this ‘new assignment’ to go and scout for some kind of ’emergency dozer line’ as late as 4:15 PM… and AFTER the Blue Ridge Hotshots were already actively ‘evacuating’ from the Youth Camp and Frisby and Brown were already ‘bombing around’ trying to make sure all the other FFs in that area were also ‘getting out’.
And even this statment deserves it’s own ‘breakdown’, because of the ‘unanswered questions’ it has always raised…
“Structure group one…”
Cory Ball states unequivocally that this ‘order’ was being given to him directly by SPGS1 Gary Cordes… but there is absolutely NO mention of this ‘order’ in ANY of Gary Cordes’ own ‘testimony’ or even Gary Cordes’ own ‘Unit Log’.
“…assigns me and one other…”
Two things here…
1. Confirmation from Cory Ball that it was NOT ‘a suggestion’. It was a direct ASSIGNMENT ( as in… do what I tell you… RIGHT NOW )… and that it was coming directly from SPGS1 Gary Cordes.
2. We still have NO IDEA who this “and one OTHER” person is/was. Was Cory Ball referring to bulldozer operator Paul Morin as the ‘one other’ being given the same ‘last-ditch-effort assignment’… or someone else? Is it possible that the ‘one other’ also being told to ‘participae’ in Cordes’ ‘assignment’ was DIVSA Eric Marsh, who Cordes might have KNOWN was already at or near the Boulder Springs Ranch where this ’emergency dozer line’ was supposed to ( now ) be ‘scouted’?
“…to locate possibility of dozer line…”
So there is no question, according to Cory Ball, that SPGS1 Gary Cordes ( as late as 4:15 PM ) still thought there was actually TIME to put in some kind of ’emergency dozer line’… and that even at that late hour Cordes thought it was still ‘safe’ enough to have Cory Ball ( and this mysterious ‘one other’ ) out there in front of the advancing fireline doing this ‘scouting’ work.
Gary Cordes KNEW that an entire Task Force and an entire Hotshot Crew were actively ‘retreating’ from the Shrine area… and he still thought there was time to ask ANOTHER individual ( Cory Ball ) and some mysterious ‘one other’ to put themselves out in front of the advancing fireline to try and ‘locate some NEW possibility for a NEW dozer line’.
“…to southwest of Yarnell.”
This just confirms that the LOCATION where Gary Cordes now wanted Cory Ball ( and this mysterious ‘one other’ ) to ‘scout for emergency dozer line’ was, in fact, the area southwest of the ‘Sesame Clearing’ area and near the Boulder Springs Ranch. Cordes himself testified ( to ADOSH ) that in the same timeframe… he DID know that is where Eric Marsh and ‘Granite Mountain’ were ‘headed’ and that he WAS ‘assuming’ they had already had ‘plenty of time to get there’ ( all the way to the Boulder Springs Ranch ).
So it remains a possibility that when Gary Cordes gave this ‘last-ditch-effort assignment’ to Cory Ball ( and the mysterious ‘one other’ ), Cordes might have been assuming that Eric Marsh and the entire Granite Mountain crew had ( circa 4:15 PM when he is giving this new ‘assignment’ to Ball and the ‘dozer’ ) ALREADY ARRIVED at the Boulder Springs Ranch, and already WERE ‘available’ to help ‘improve’ whatever ‘last-ditch-effort dozer line’ they might have been able to ‘push’ in that area.
Back to Cory Ball’s ‘Unit Log’…
“Acquire ATV: travel into subdivision back to Dozer line.”
The additional proof that this last-ditch-effort ‘assignment’ that Cordes gave Ball is REAL is this next log entry AND the fact that Cory Ball himself PHOTOGRAPHED his ‘arrival’ at the Yarnell Fire Station to do exactly what he said in his ‘Unit Log’. Cory Ball’s own photos show him riding ‘shotgun’ in a pickup truck and ARRIVING at the Yarnell Fire Station to “Acquire the ATV” at exactly 4:27 PM.
And 4:27 PM is ALSO the EXACT time that Blue Ridge Hotshot Ronald Gamble recorded his own ‘video’ while sitting in the driver’s seat of one of the Blue Ridge Hotshot Crew Carriers out at the Youth Camp… just moments before it would ‘get the flock out of there’ and head EAST on Shrine Road to safety.
The 4:27 PM ‘Ronald Gamble’ video is the one where we actually HEAR someone communicating DIRECTLY with Eric Marsh and ( apparently ) asking him to ‘hurry up’ and get the Granite Mountain Hotshots ‘to town’.
So at the SAME MOMENT that Cory Ball is actively ‘executing’ on his ‘assignment’ to ‘go scout emergency dozer line to the southwest of Yarnell’ ( near the Boulder Springs Ranch )… we ALSO hear someone either wondering why Granite Mountain is NOT at the ‘Boulder Springs Ranch’ yet and/or actively URGING Eric Marsh to ‘hurry up’ and get them there.
Coincidence?… or was it all part of the ‘plan’ to get both the ‘dozer’ cranking on this ’emergency plan’ AND make sure Granite Mountain was ‘in that area’ to help work on that ’emergency dozer push’?
We still don’t know the REAL answer(s) regarding this.
Followup…
Diane… I know the ‘response’ above doesn’t address some of the ‘questions’ in your mind… but if there is going to be a renewed discussion about any last-ditch-effort ‘plans’ to try and protect some/all of Yarnell and Glen Ilah… I just thought it worthwhile to point out 2 important things…
1. It still remains ‘highly likely’ that if there WAS such a ‘last-ditch-effort’ ( sic: Hail Mary ) plan… that DIVSA Eric Marsh himself *might* have been either the sole author or the co-author of it.
He had the BEST VIEW of the situation of anyone in ‘fire command’. Even BETTER than ‘Air Attack’… because we know now that the current ‘Air Attack’ in this timeframe ( Thomas French and John Burfiend and Clint Cross in ‘Bravo 33’ ) was ‘task fixated’ up on the NORTH side of the fire and not even in a postion to ‘advise’ anyone of any ‘possibilities’ there on the SOUTH end of the fire ). So Marsh actually would have been the ‘go to’ guy with regards to questions like “Do you seen any possibilities there for saving any parts of the town?”.
2. The BEST ‘evidence’ that there really WAS such a ‘last-ditch-effort’ plan to try and save some/all of Yarnell and Glen Ilah is still that ‘Unit Log’ testimony from Blue Ridge Hotshot turned HEQB/DOZB Cory Ball about what SPGS1 Gary Cordes TOLD him ( and one mysterious ‘other’ person ) to go and do. ( See if there was a good place to push an emergency dozer line somewhere to the southwest of Yarnell and near the Boulder Springs Ranch ).
As for OPS1 Todd Abel actually being one of the ‘authors’ of this ‘plan’ and/or having ‘knowledge’ of it… all I can say is that there is no evidence to support that. There is only some evidence that points to the opposite. That he did NOT even ‘know’ about any such plan.
That ‘evidence’ isn’t even after-the-fact ‘testimony’.
It is a REAL-TIME recording of OPS1 Todd Abel himself speaking to Marsh at exactly 3:50 PM when he is HEARD telling Marsh… “Okay. Copy. Keep me informed. You guys hunker and be safe and we’ll get some air support down there ASAP”.
If it turns out that is NOT then OPS1 Todd Abel’s voice in the 4:27 PM ‘Yarnell-Gamble’ video telling Eric Marsh to please “Hurry up and get to town”… then all we have is OPS1 Todd Abel’s last known communication with Marsh containing that “hunker and be safe” directive… and nothing whatsoever about participating in any “last-ditch-effort” plan to try and ‘save’ anything at all.
WTKTT,
I am still reading your reply but wanted to let you know how much I appreciate the time and thought you have put into helping me understand the circumstances of this critical timeframe.
The elephant in the room for me is that no one was getting on the radio etc. and stating to air attack in the 3:50 p.m time frame that they needed to get to the Yarnell area ASAP as the situation was dire there.
Was air attack informed of Eric marsh’s observation at 3:42 p.m. that the fire line had breached the large retardant line that had been laid down earlier or did air attack assume that they could spend more time in the peeples valley area because the retardant line would offer protection?
Happy New Year everyone,
As we all count our blessings I include those of you on this blog that are committed to the Granite Mountain hotshots and our quest for justice for them and their families.
On a personal note I am so grateful that my grandson in Portland,Oregon who was recently hit and drug by a car that lost control on an icy road. Fortunately his hip and leg injuries weren’t more serious and he will recover after several more weeks in a wheechair and ankle to hip cast.
MY REPLY IN CAPS BELOW—>
Diane Lomas says
DECEMBER 31, 2016 AT 2:52 PM
Happy New Year everyone, HAPPY NEW YEAR AND WE HOPE YOU HAD GREAT CELEBRATIONS THIS MONTH…H.B. ALL AROUND YA’S…MANY HERE ON IM CELEBRATED BIRTHDAYS SO HAPPY BIRTHDAYS TOO….WE HAVE ALOT OF SAGITTARIUS/LEO/VIRGO/CANCERS ON HERE…
YOU ARE TRULY ONE AMAZING WOMAN DIANE…IN LIFE THERE ARE FOLKS WE FORGET WHAT THEY SAID OR DID BUT I WILL ALWAYS BE GRATEFUL
“Y O U” EXIST FOR THE SPECIAL WAY YOU MAKE ONE “F E E L”…
YOU ARE THE BEST!!!! KEEP SHARING!!! BECAUSE OF YOUR PARTICIPATION PEOPLE HAVE COME OUT OF THE SHADOWS—
As we all count our blessings I include those of you on this blog that are committed to the Granite Mountain hotshots and our quest for justice for them and their families. I AGREE
On a personal note I am so grateful that my grandson in Portland,Oregon who was recently hit ON A BIKE OR ON FOOT??? I FEEL IT WAS ON FOOT— STANDING…and drug by a car MID SIZE CAR??? WAS THERE A FEW OTHERS INVOLVED??? DID ANOTHER DIE AND ANOTHER IS IN BAD SHAPE? that lost control on an icy road. DID IT FISHTAIL??? OR WAS THIS LIKE A CHAOTIC ICE ROAD MESS OF EVENTS??? NOT JUST ONE EVENT BUT A COMBINATION DUE TO WEATHER CONDITION OF ROAD…Fortunately his hip and leg injuries weren’t more serious and he will recover after several more weeks in a wheelchair and ankle to hip cast.IT IS A JOURNEY TO RECOVER FROM…PRAYERS IN PROCESS—NOTHING BROKEN? MAINLY CONTUSIONS? I FELL DOWN ONCE A 15FT MINE SHAFT ONCE AND I FORTUNATELY DID NOT BREAK ANYTHING BUT BOY DID I HIT SIDE TO SIDE THEN THE BASE HARD…I COULD NOT HAVE MADE IT THROUGH SINCE I DON’T TAKE PHARMACEUTICALS WITHOUT MY GINGER, SALMON, DARK GRAPES, TURMERIC, THYME WHICH BEATS ANY PAIN PILL (INTERNAL FRESH BUT ALSO A BODY OIL RUB TOO), CHERRIES/RASPBERRIES/STRAWBERRIES, OLIVE OIL (MIXED WITH THYME OIL EXTERNAL) AND 1 TEASPOON INTERNAL, SAGE IS GREAT TO REDUCE THE SWELLING, ETC…EITHER WAY YOUR LOVED ONE OPTS TO RECOVER—WISHING IT IS GOD-SPEED AND GETS WELL SPOT ON 🙂
Thank you for thoughts about my grandson–he and my daughter were standing by sidewalk watching my son in law and granddaughters helping someone across the street putting chains on their car when a small car (driving too fast for icy conditions) tried to go around cars waiting and lost control on the icy road going up and onto the sidewalk where he hit my grandson with the front of his car–my daughter was nearly hit too but jumped out of the way. My grandson was dragged about 25 feet under the car.. a terrifying scene for all. My son-in-law and other adults lifted the car off of him and my daughter pulled him out. Ambulance took a long time getting to him because of traffic congestion due to dangerous roads and then doctor had trouble getting in to the hospital He had a dislocated hip and broken bones in kneecap and femur. Doctors put back dislocated hip (very painful) and then put the long cast on his one side for those broken bones. Kids were home from school due to bad weather and roads that day so the family went for a walk and then that happened—we just never know do we?
Thank you for asking about him.
Joy,
Thank you for the positive comments you made about my participation on IM. Your kind words are truly a new year’s gift.
Sometimes I hesitate to contribute as I worry about wasting someone’s time to answer my questions or that I am not qualified to participate because I don’t have a firefighter background and look at things differently. But I am curious and outraged at what happened to the hotshots and have a strong desire to get justice and bring out the truth even if I sometimes make a fool of myself in the questions that I ask.
I believe that with many of us working together we unraveling some of the tightly held secrets of this situation.
no, thank you. 🙂
When did the bulldozer arrive at the Boulder Springs Ranch on 6/60/13 to provide assistance on the fire or was it able to make it through the dangerous conditions?
Reply to Diane Lomas post on December 31, 2016 at 5:50 pm
>> Diane Lomas asked…
>>
>> When did the bulldozer arrive at the Boulder Springs Ranch on 6/60/13
>> to provide assistance on the fire or was it able to make it through
>> the dangerous conditions?
Not quite sure what you are asking there.
The only dozer that ever ‘arrived’ at the Boulder Springs Ranch itself ( as far
as we know ) was the one that went there later in the evening on Sunday,
June 30, 2016… AFTER the deployment and the deaths of the 19 Hotshots.
That’s the one that went to the Boulder Springs Ranch in order to ‘push’
a ‘road’ out from the western edge of the Ranch property all the way out
to where the bodies were, to assist in the removal of the bodies the next morning.
The Yavapai County Public Works contract ‘dozer’ that was being used during the DAY on Sunday, June 30, 2013 out in the ‘Sesame area’ ( with operator Paul Morin onboard ) went ‘on the clock’ at 7:00 AM that Sunday morning and it arrived in Yarnell right around 8:45 AM ( according to SPGS1 Gary Cordes ).
It still remains an absolute UNKNOWN where this dozer actually WAS when the fire burned through Yarnell and Glen Ilah late Sunday afternoon.
It was so ‘unknown’ where this dozer was that operator Paul Morin himself ended up on the list of ‘missing persons’ that DPS Helicopter Ranger 58 was supposed to be ‘looking for’ ( in addition to the 19 GM Hotshots ) following the news of the deployment.
As for your reference to “make it through the dangerous conditions”… it remains a distinct possibility that Paul Morin actually ‘rode out’ the burnover out there in that clearing where the dozer low-boy trailer was staged… either inside the cab of the dozer or inside the dozer low-boy trailer cab itself.
Bulldozer operator Paul Morin was NEVER interviewed by ANYONE, so his actual whereabouts during the ‘burnover’, and what he may or may not have known about any ‘last-ditch emergency dozer line’ plan remains a mystery.
From the actual bulldozer ‘timesheet’ that was released ( with no redactions )
by Yavapai County at the request of Joy Collura…
——————————————–
Dozer: Cat D7R
Serial # 06562
From: Yavapai County
Shift 1:
START: June 30 – 0700 (7 AM)
STOP: 2100 (9 PM)
Hrs: 14
Operator: Paul Morin
Shift 2:
START: July 1 – 0000 (Midnight)
STOP: 1300 (2 PM)
Hrs: 13
Operator: Donald Rezzonico
——————————————-
From SPGS1 Gary Cordes’ SAIT interview notes…
——————————————-
0800-0900
Dozer arrived. Took dozer I to put it to work. I didn’t like that it had a 12 ft. blade.
——————————————-
From SPGS1 Gary Cordes’ handwritten ‘Unit Log’…
——————————————-
Date/Time: 6/30 08:45 ( 8:45 AM )
Dozer arrived. Started them to work after briefing on Sesame Street.
Ordered Dozer Boss. Stayed with dozer pushing line until Ball from
Blue Ridge took the Dozer Boss position. Ball was briefed on
operation and intent.
——————————————-
It is so important that there are accurate records as you have posted and Joy acquired. A man identifying himself as Paul Morin returned a call to me (I had left a voicemail on his phone that I wanted to talk to him about the fire and his perspective from being a bulldozer driver that day). He told me that he was NOT at the Yarnell fire. In addition, the phone number that he returned my call from was not the same number as where I left the message for him.
Reply to Diane Lomas post on January 1, 2017 at 1:51 pm
>> Diane Lomas said…
>>
>> A man identifying himself as Paul Morin returned a
>> call to me (I had left a voicemail on his phone that
>> I wanted to talk to him about the fire and his
>> perspective from being a bulldozer driver that day).
>> He told me that he was NOT at the Yarnell fire.
If that really is/was the ‘Paul Morin’ that worked for ( but is now retired from ) Yavapai County Works Department…
…then either HE is/was LYING… or his ’employer’ is/was.
That ‘timesheet’ for that Yavapai County bulldozer that was used in Yarnell on Sunday, June 30, 2013 really DOES say the ‘operator’ for the ‘first shift’ was ‘Paul Morin’.
Just curious…
Did this ‘Paul Morin’ you spoke with CONFIRM that he was working for the ‘Yavapai County Public Works’ department in June of 2013?
Or did he say something like “Never ran a bulldozer in my life. Don’t know what you are talking about”?
>> Diane Lomas said…
>>
>> In addition, the phone number that he returned my
>> call from was not the same number as where I left
>> the message for him.
I believe when you talked about this before… I showed you that the number you CALLED this ‘Paul Morin’ on was a ‘land-line’… and the number he called you BACK on was, in fact, a cellphone also registered to someone named ‘Paul Morin’.
Call from man identifying himself as Paul morin- I remember him saying that he was retired. He wanted to know who asked me to call him-I told him that I have been reading about the fire and that he was there so found his number in the
white pages as a bulldozer
operator and called him to get his perspective. He didn’t deny being a bulldozer operator but denied being at the fire. He may have returned my call to see if someone prompted my call to him. I don’t know we didn’t talk again.
I will look for the number that he called me from.
Diane… thank you… but what I’m still wondering is if there came a moment in ANY conversation that this ‘Paul Morin’ was, in fact, the ‘Paul Morin’ that was working for Yavapai County Public Works Department in June of 2013.
You say he said he was RETIRED.
Was it clear that what he meant was that… yes… he USED to work for Yavapai County Public Works… but that he has since RETIRED from there?
So there were two shifts for the dozer and it’s operators—one from 7 am to 9 pm on 6/30/2013 and another from midnight-2pm on July 1.
Paul Morin was the first shift operator and Donald Rezzonico was the second?
Donald Rezzonico created the road out to the deployment site?
Correction-I see that it was stated earlier that Donald Rezzonico created the road out to the deployment site.
Was the other bulldozer operator, Donald Rezzonico, interviewed?
No. Not by anyone ( that we know of ).
According to the Yavapai County dozer timesheet ( obtained from Yavapai County by Joy Collura ),Rezzonico was the one actually OPERATING that dozer when the road was ‘pushed’ out to the deployment site…
…but the HEQB ( Heavy Equipment Boss ) and/or DOZB ( Dozer Boss ) assigned to be supervising Rezzonico was none other than Dean Stewart… OPS1 Todd Abel’s long-time friend, old engine-buddy, and hunting partner.
Shown below is Dean Stewart’s actual ‘Resource Order’ for the Yarnell Hill Fire as contained in the official “J- Resource Orders.pdf” public evidence document…
Notice in the REQUEST itself that they were ‘sole sourcing’ this particular FBAN ( Fire Behavior Analyst ) request and specifically ASKING for it to be ‘filled’ with ‘Dean Stewart’ in the ‘Resource Requested’ field itself. Normally that field just indicates WHAT you are requesting ( by acronym… such as FBAN or DIVS or whatever )… and the next eligible person in rotation is used to filled the order. In this case, the person entering the resource request into the computer already knew they wanted ‘Dean Stewart’ before they even filled out the ‘Resource Requested’ field in the computer.
It states that ‘Dean Stewart’ was ‘sole sourced’ and ordered up as an FBAN ( Fire Behavior Analyst ) at 1734 ( 5:34 PM ) on Sunday, June 30, 2013… but there is photographic evidence of Dean Stewart being there working the Yarnell Hill Fire some time even BEFORE 5:34 PM on Sunday.
So he was there at the Yarnell Hill Fire before the official documents say a resource order was even placed for him.
So it appears that ‘Dean Stewart’ was just another person who was there on Sunday afternoon and ‘freelancing’ on the fire ( like Prescott National Forest employees Jason Clawson, Aaron Hulburd and KC ‘Bucky’ Yowell ) with no actual ‘resource order’ in place BEFORE arriving there.
To this day… there is still no ‘resource order’ at all for ‘Jason Clawson’… who ended up participating in the ground rescue mission and was actually the one making a radio call from the deployment site confirming the fatalities.
Very strange.
Anyway.. here is Dean Stewart’s resource order for Yarnell…
——————————————————————-
Request Number: O-59.5
Ordered Date/Time: 06/30/13 1734 MST
From: AZ-ADC ( Dispatch ) 800-309-7081
To: AZ-ADC
Qty: 1
Resource Requested: FIRE BEHAVIOR ANALYST (FBAN) (Turner, Stewart Dean)
Needed Date/Time: 07/01/13 1400 PNT
Deliver To: YARNELL HILL
From Unit: IN-IIC
To Unit: AZ-ADC
Assigned Date/Time: 06/30/13 1840 CST
Resource Assigned Unit ID: IN-INS
Resource Assigned: Turner, Stewart Dean (IN-IIC) [EFF/AD]
M/D Ind.: M
Estimated Time of Departure: 07/01/13 0715 EST
Estimated Time of Arrival: 07/01/13 1015 PNT
Released Date: ( No entry )
Release To: ( No entry )
Travel Mode: ( No entry )
Financial Code: AZ-A1S-130688 ( The 2013 Yarnell Hill Fire )
Special Needs: ( No entry )
Reporting Instructions: ICP MODEL CREEK SCHOOL IN PEEPLES
VALLEY 18912 HAYS RANCH ROAD, PEEPLES VALLEY AZ.
——————————————————————–
Dean Stewart—if dean Stewart was supposed to be supervising Paul morin why was Corey ball needed when Paul morin didn’t have a radio and some necessary credentials?
Reply to Diane lomas post on
January 2, 2017 at 8:47 am
>> Diane lomas said…
>>
>> Dean Stewart—if dean Stewart was supposed
>> to be supervising Paul morin why was Corey
>> ball needed when Paul morin didn’t have a
>> radio and some necessary credentials?
Dean Stewart was NOT the ‘supervisor’ for that bulldozer during the DAY… and during the shift when Yavapai County records say ‘Paul Morin’ was the dozer operator.
Dean Stewart only became the ‘Dozer Boss’ later that night, during the SECOND shift for that same dozer, which then featured operator Donald Rezzonico.
Here’s the timeline again…
That dozer ‘arrived’ in Yarnell circa 8:45 AM on Sunday morning, June 30, 2013. According to Yavapai County’s own records… that dozer ‘arrived’ with an ‘operator’ named ‘Paul Morin’. That operator that ‘arrived’ with the dozer had neither the proper red-card qualifications to be working an Arizona Forestry managed wildfire… nor did he have his own handheld radio.
When the dozer first showed up… SPGS1 Gary Cordes himself became the ‘supervisor’ of it… but Cordes didn’t want to get ‘stuck’ doing that all day so at the same time he was ‘putting the dozer to work’ out there in the Sesame area… Cordes officially requested someone to come and ‘relieve’ him and act as ‘Dozer Boss’ so that Cordes could get back to being SPGS1.
Blue Ridge Hotshot Cory Ball became the ‘goto’ guy to replace Gary Cordes as ‘Dozer Boss’… but that didn’t happen until around 10:30 AM.
But once it did… ‘Cory Ball’… remained the ‘Dozer Boss’ for the rest of the morning and most of the afternoon.
Cory Ball remained with the dozer until it was driven back down to the ‘loboy staging area’ there at the end of Lakewood and Manzanita Drive(s).
Then Cory Ball ‘left’ the dozer ( and Paul Morin ) and drove the Blue Ridge Chase truck from that same ‘loboy staging area’ over to the Ranch House Restaurant.
Cory Ball then immediately TRIED to get ‘back there’ to that same staging area, in order to fulfill SPGS1 Gary Cordes’ request that he ( and ‘one other’ ) scout emergency dozer line to the southwest of Yarnell.
Cory Ball never made it back there… and since he was also unable to communicate with Paul Morin via radio… no one knew where he ( and the dozer ) were when the fire blew into Glen Ilah. So that is when Mr. Morin ended up on the same ‘missing persons’ list as the 19 Granite Mountain Hotshots.
It is still NOT KNOWN if this is the same dozer then then ‘reappeared’ later ( after the burnover ) working the Glen Ilah area. Another dozer had ‘arrived’ in Yarnell BEFORE the burnover but it ‘reported’ to the Model Creek Elementary School when it arrived ( and not Yarnell ).
Later in the evening… it was decided that a ‘dozer’ needed to push a road from the Boulder Springs Ranch out to where the bodies were, in order to facilitate recovery of the bodies.
That’s when OPS1 Todd Abel’s longtime friend, old engine crewmate and Elk Hunting buddy ‘Dean Stewart’ entered the picture.
Whichever ‘dozer’ that was that arrived at the BSR to ‘push that road’… Dean Stewart was only then made the ‘DOZB’ ( Dozer Boss ) to supervise that task.
It is still ‘assumed’ that this dozer was the same Yavapai County dozer that had been there all day… but was now being ‘operated’ by Donald Rezzonico instead of Paul Morin… but there has actually never been any proof of that.
The dozer that ended up pushing the road out to the deployment site MAY have actually been the SECOND dozer that arrived BEFORE the burnover… and the original Yavapai County dozer might have been doing something else for that ‘second shift’ with operator Donald Rezzonico.
It was SPGS1 Darrell Willis who first ‘informed’ the investigators that the ‘Dozer Boss’ for that road work out to the deployment site was, in fact, ‘Dean Stewart’…
From Darrell Willis’ first of TWO interviews with ADOSH on August 19, 2013…
The following excerpt comes at that moment when ADOSH investigator Barry Hicks
was wondering if Darrell Willis knew who actually was ‘supervising’ the bulldozer
as it pushed that road from the west end of the Boulder Springs Ranch out to
the deployment site…
Q1 = Barry Hicks, ADOSH investigator
A = SPGS2 Darrell Willis
——————————————————
1143 Q1: Yeah. Um, so and you don’t know who actually took the dozer in that night?
1144
1145 A: I do.
1146
1147 Q1: Who was that?
1148
1149 A: Um, Dean – worked for Central.
1150
1151 Q: Marquez?
1152
1153 A: No. It was, um…
1154
1155 Q2: What was the name?
1156
1157 A: No that was – he was a division out there. He works for Central Yavapai.
1158
1159 Q1: Okay.
1160
1161 A: Dean Stewart.
1162
1163 Q1: Dean Stewart.
1164
1165 A: Works for Central Yavapai. He’s the dozer boss and they had flagged it in. I
1166 think him and a couple guys from the Prescott National Forest flagged in a
1167 dozer line.
1168
1169 Q1: Okay.
1170
1171 A: And they just pushed it up and then pushed the whole flat area where that flag
1172 is and stuff.
————————————————–
Followup…
Whoever transcribed Darrell Willis’ August ADOSH interview made a ‘spelling mistake’.
The Central Yavapai firefighter that Willis was ‘naming’ is “Dean Steward” ( with a ‘D’ on the end ) and NOT “Dean Stewart” ( with a ‘T’ ).
I had forgotten about that… and I was wrongly using the name ‘Dean Stewart’ myself up above.
But it really was “Dean Steward”. ( with a ‘D’ ).
WTKTT,
Thank you for clarifying about Dean Steward.
While Dean Stewart made have indeed been working the YHF, THIS resource order is for Stewart Dean Turner (FBAN), period.
Reply to The Truth Will Always Remain Elusive
( TTWARE ) post on January 2, 2017 at 9:28 am
>> TTWARE said…
>>
>> While Dean Stewart made have indeed been
>> working the YHF, THIS resource order is for
>> Stewart Dean Turner (FBAN), period.
Well… as it turns out… I totally forgot that the NAME of this ‘friend’ of OPS1 Todd Abel’s who became the ‘dozer boss’ in Yarnell the night of June 30, 2013 was actually named ‘Dean Steward’ ( with a ‘D’ on the end ) and NOT ‘Dean Stewart’ ( with a ‘T’ on the end ).
Whoever transcribed Darrell Willis’ ADOSH testimony, when he identified Abel’s friend ‘Dean Steward’ ( from Central Yavapai Fire ) as the ‘Dozer Boss’ spelled it ‘Dean Stewart’ in the transcript instead of ‘Dean Steward’.
There is absolutely NO ‘Resource Record’ in the official documentation for this ‘Dean Steward’ guy.
So he is just like the infamous ‘Jason Clawson’ from the Prescott National Forest.
We KNOW he was there ( at the Yarnell Hill Fire ) and was heavily involved… but there is absolutely no ‘Resource Order’ for him.
Like he was never there at all.
Dean Steward’s PUBLIC ‘Facebook’ page is here ( where his ‘Friends’ include Todd Abel, Tony Sciacca, Yarnell Fire Chief Ben Palm, Sharon Knutson-Felix, Marty Cole, Amanda Marsh, Holly Neill, etc. )…
https://www.facebook.com/dean.steward.75
WTKTT,
You answered my question about the bulldozer—thank you for your help. I wondered if it arrived at the BSR prior to the burnover to assist in the “hail mary plan”. Now I know that it did not get there until after the burnover .
If Paul Morin rode out the burnover in the cab of the bulldozer or lowboy cab
he must have been traumatized.
Again, it appears that there are huge efforts to cover up the “hail Mary Plan” and related incidents on this fire.
Reply to Diane Lomas post on January 1, 2017 at 2:33 pm
>> Diane Lomas said…
>>
>> You answered my question about the bulldozer—thank
>> you for your help. I wondered if it arrived at the BSR
>> prior to the burnover to assist in the “hail mary plan”.
>> Now I know that it did not get there until after the
>> burnover .
Keep in mind that the PROBLEM here is that we still have NO IDEA where that bulldozer ( and operator Paul Morin ) ended up after it drove back down to the south end of the Sesame Clearing area ( with Blue Ridge Hotshot turned DOZB/HEQB Cory Ball hitching a ride ) to where BOTH the bulldozer loboy-trailer AND the Blue Ridge Chase Truck ( with their Polaris UTV trailer attached ) were located.
Cory Ball LEFT the ‘dozer’ when they reached that location at that large clearing just where the pavement for both Lakewood and Manzanita Drives comes to an end..
Cory Ball then departed that ‘dozer loboy-trailer staging area’ in the Blue Ridge Chase truck ( as he was told to do by his Blue Ridge boss ) and ‘evacuated’ that Chase Truck over to the Ranch House Restaurant where all the other Blue Ridge vehicles were headed right around that same time.
But we have NO IDEA if Cory Ball had instructed dozer operator Morin to “stay here… I’ll be right back” before departing that loboy staging area.
Cory Ball’s own Unit Log entries would ‘suggest’ that is what happened… since after he dropped the Chase Truck off at the Ranch House Retaurant he says he immediately “borrowed an ATV” in order get “back out to the dozer line” and continue with this ‘Hail Mary” emergency dozer-line ‘scouting’ that Gary Cordes had ordered him to do.
It wouldn’t make much sense for Ball to have hurriedly borrowed that ATV from the Yarnell Fire Department and have been hauling ass back out to where he last left the dozer unless he thought it was SUPPOSED to still be there, right?
One of the theories here is that Cory Ball HAD instructed Paul Morin to ‘wait for him’ out there at that staging area while he ran the Blue Ridge Chase Truck back to the RHR… but that Cory Ball was also assuming that by the time he got over to the RHR, the other Blue Ridge vehicles would already be there and his plan was to just ‘borrow’ the Blue Ridge UTV in order to get back out to the dozer and continue this “Hail Mary” scouting assignment Cordes had given him…
…but when Ball arrived at the RHR in the Blue Ridge Chase truck he discovered that the other Blue Ridge vehicles had NOT arrived there yet… and Ball now had no way to get ‘back out there’.
So that must have produced some moment in the RHR parking lot where Cory Ball was running around saying something like…
“Hey… anybody got an ATV I can borrow? I’m supposed to get right back out to where the dozer is and scout out some emergency dozer line out there!”.
Someone then ‘chimed in’ at that RHR parking lot and then said
“Yea… there’s an ATV doing nothing over at the Yarnell Fire Station.”
And then someone else ( or maybe the same person ) is the one who then drove Cory Ball over to the YFD so Ball could get ‘mobile’ and try to get back out to that dozer staging area.
But all of this took more time than Ball had planned on… and when he tried to get back to that dozer staging area out at the end of Lakewood and Manzanitia… he realized he could NOT.
It was too late to ‘get back there’.
And now Paul Morin has no radio… so Cory Ball could not even ascertain his whereabouts… which is why Paul Morin ended up on the actual ‘missing persons’ list for DPS Helicopter Ranger 58.
One of the additional ‘theories’ is that even if Ball had told Morin to STAY out there at that staging area and that he would “be right back” so they could continue with this “Hail Mary” scouting… that when Morin himself realized Ball was taking too long… he loaded up the dozer and got the hell OUT of there.
And again… Morin had no radio… so he couldn’t even radio Ball to tell him he was doing that ( getting the hell out of that area ).
So ( perhaps ) while Ball was being driven over to the YFD to get the ATV… Morin and the dozer trailer ‘exited’ the Glen Ilah area and drove north on Highway 89… and Ball just ‘missed that’ and really did think Morin was still ‘out there’ at that staging area.
Bottom line is that we still don’t have “all the facts” here.
All we have is Blue Ridge Hotshot Cory Ball’s SIGNED TESTIMONY that he WAS told to do this “Hail Mary” dozer-line scouting… and that he WAS trying to do that as best he could… and then even he ended up having no idea where Paul Morin was and that’s why Morin’s name got added to the ‘missing persons’ list along with the Granite Mountain Hotshots.
>> Diane Lomas also said…
>>
>> If Paul Morin rode out the burnover in the cab of the
>> bulldozer or lowboy cab he must have been traumatized.
Not necessarily.
Take a look at the following YouTube video.
It was filmed from ‘inside’ a ‘safety zone’ clearing on the ‘Rim Fire’ while the fire ‘burned over’ ( and all around ) their location.
There are actually TWO bulldozer loboy trailers ( along with other fire vehicles ) sitting right here in this clearing as the fire ‘burned around them’. The tires did not explode or anything like that…
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9xW0eQ66PnY
The clearing at the end of Lakewood and Manzanita Drives ( where the dozer loboy was staged on June 30, 2013 ) is not AS big as the clearing in the video above… but it was a pretty good size clearing.
The BUILDINGS that were actually there in that same clearing where the dozer loboy was staged that Sunday survived the fire and didn’t appear to suffer much damage at all.
The area was surrounded by rocky mounds and it appears the fire ‘passed over’ that area pretty quickly and wihout dong much damage.
So if Paul Morin really had to ‘ride out the fire’ at that location ( because he was still sitting there waiting for Cory Ball to return and got ‘caught’ there )… it might have not been too bad for him.
Only Paul Morin can say how bad it was ( or wasn’t )… or if it even happened at all.
Lakewood and manzanita drive—wonder if this is the area where it was reported that there was damage to a wall leaving track marks similar to a bulldozer?
Reply to Diane lomas post on December 31, 2016 at 9:34 am
>> Diane lomas asked…
>>
>> Was air attack informed of Eric marsh’s observation at 3:42 p.m. that
>> the fire line had breached the large retardant line that had been laid
>> down earlier or did air attack assume that they could spend more time
>> in the peeples valley area because the retardant line would offer protection?
There is no ‘recorded’ radio transmission of Rory Collins ( the Air Attack over Yarnell until 3:58 PM ) being directly given this ‘news’ that the fire had now ‘crossed’ the massive retardant line laid by the previous Air Attack ( Bravo ‘3’ – Warbis and Lenmark )… but it is apparent from ‘other’ evidence that Rory Collins WAS perfectly aware of this fact in the 3:40 PM to 3:50 PM timeframe.
But it’s perfectly obvious ( from other evidence ) that Collins KNEW it.
Even though ADOSH was never able to ‘interview’ Air Attack Rory Collins, there are actually PHOTOS in the public evidence record that were obtained FROM him ( and supplied to BOTH the SAIT and ADOSH investigators ) that he took himself while flying the area in the 3:40 to 3:50 PM timeframe.
That ‘folder’ in InvestigativeMEDIA’s public Dropbox containing all the photos supplied by Air Attack Rory Collins that he took over Yarnell both Saturday AND Sunday is here…
https://www.dropbox.com/sh/02ue6bnjp6nazkm/AABm0byZTHSeaZBY2TyiwJjya/Photos%20and%20Video/RoryCollins%20Photos?dl=0
Air Attack Rory Collins arrived back over the Yarnell fire on Sunday BEFORE this ‘massive retardant line’ that was being laid in place by Warbis and Lenmark was completed.
In the seventh and eight ‘row’ of photos ( down from the top of the page ), there are several photos that Rory Collins took of this massive retardant line still being ‘completed’.
His IMG_0282 of the VLAT ‘adding on’ to that retardant line was taken at 2:41:54 PM Sunday.
His IMG_0283 of the same ‘VLAT drop’ was taken 4 seconds later, at 2:41:58 PM
His IMG_0284 was taken 3 seconds later at 2:42:01 PM and shows the ‘completion’ of that ‘VLAT drop’ that was ‘adding on’ to that massive west-to-east retardant line out in that ‘bowl’.
So there is absolutely no doubt that ‘Air Attack’ Rory Collins KNEW exactly WHERE this retardant line was ‘down there’ ( even though he isn’t the one who thought of it or started the operation ).
And just short of an hour after taking those photos of that massive retardant line being completed… Rory Collins himself also took a photo of the fireline ‘burning right through it’.
His photo IMG_0289 ( in that same folder at the link above ) was taken at exactly 3:39:51 on Sunday, June 30, 2013.
From the EXIF metadata embedded in his IMG_0289 photo…
DateTime Original: 2013 06 30 15:39:51 ( 3:29:51 PM )
On January 9, 2015, I posted a PUBLIC Youtube video showing a ‘crossfade’ between this IMG_0289 photo that Rory Collins took at 3:29 PM on Sunday, and the actual Google Earth imagery that matches the photo… including the location of the Warbis/Lenmark retardant line.
That ‘crossfade’ is here on YouTube…
Video Title: Collins-1539-crossfade
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LchaQ3C-wnw
Notice that in this 3:29 PM photo taken by Collins looking SOUTH at Yarnell that the fireline in the upper right corner of his photo is ALREADY beginning to ‘cross’ that massive retardant line and moving towards Yarnell itself.
So this was exactly what Air Attack Rory Collins could SEE ( for himself ) from the air ( and HE took that photo of exactly what HE was seeing at 3:29 PM )… and this was even a full 13 minutes BEFORE DIVSA Eric Marsh would be recorded ‘reporting’ on the radio that the fireline was now heading SOUTH… and towards Yarnell… and that it had already ‘crossed’ that Warbis/Lenmark retardant line.
And then, of course, just 8 minutes after Marsh reported the fire was now heading SOUTH, and “towards Yarnell” is when we have that Air-To-Air radio channel recording of Air Attack Rory Collins telling Lead Plane ‘Bravo 33’ pilot Thomas French…
——————————————————————————-
1550:36 / 3:50:36 PM
Air Attack Rory Collins: Bravo three three… Air Attack.
1550:38 / 3:50:38 PM
Bravo 33 – Thomas French: Go ahead Air Attack.
1550:39 / 3:50:39 PM
Air Attack Rory Collins: Okay… if ya haven’t noticed they got a
heck of a wind shift here… ah… we’ve got a lot of fire headed over
towards… ah… Yarnell. Ya wanna swing around and take a look at that…
1550:56 / 3:50:56 PM
Bravo 33 – Thomas French: Copy… we’re headed that way.
——————————————————————————–
There is also this, from the SAIT Yarnell Investigation Notes ( YIN ) document, as part of THEIR ‘interview’ with Air Attack Rory Collins.
NOTE: ADOSH was never able to ‘interview’ Rory Collins… but the SAIT was.
————————————————————————–
15:30
Experienced wind shift and the flank turned and became the head going SOUTH to Yarnell.
I let ‘Bravo 33’ ( Thomas French and John Burfiend ) know prior to the shift to move to that
side and start drops.
15:30 – 15:45
The fire was headed for Yarnell moving FAST to the SOUTH.
————————————————————————–
So even in Rory Collins interview… he CONFIRMS what is in that radio transmission that we can hear for ourselves… where he TELLS ‘Bravo 33’ to “move to the SOUTH side of the fire and START DROPS.
“I let ‘Bravo 33’ ( Thomas French and John Burfiend ) know prior to the shift to MOVE to that side and START drops.
But ‘Bravo 33’ ( Thomas French ) did no such thing. Not for another 40 minutes AFTER being TOLD that ‘Yarnell’ was now the PRIORITY for ‘Air Support’.
Correction for above. I typed ‘3:29:51’ in some places where I should have typed ‘3:29:51′ instead.
The EXIF timestamp for Rory Collins’ IMG_0289 photo of the fireline beginning to burn through the retardant line is, in fact, 3:39:51 PM.
So the section above SHOULD have read like this…
———————————————————————–
His photo IMG_0289 ( in that same folder at the link above ) was taken at exactly 3:39:51 on Sunday, June 30, 2013.
From the EXIF metadata embedded in his IMG_0289 photo…
DateTime Original: 2013 06 30 15:39:51 ( 3:39:51 PM )
————————————————————————
And then any other place where I typed 3:29 PM should have been the REAL photo time of 3:39 PM.
So Rory Collins took his IMG_0289 photo just THREE minutes before Eric Marsh would then be heard in a 3:42 PM radio recording telling someone ( we still don’t know WHO ) that the fireline had burned right through the Warbis/Lenmark retardant line.
With little to contribute I have been disengaged and watching the action from my “safety zone”. The recent conversation regarding the “hail mary pass ” has sparked my interest enough to reengage. So here goes. First, thank you WTKTT for your recent post showing that there was an assignment made to Cory Ball and another person to scout the line for an emergency dozer push. Under the existing fire/weather conditions it would be fairly obvious to WFF’s that a single blade dozer line would not stop the advancing angry fire from entering Yarnell and Glen Ilah. If the hail mary was going to work they would need a Hotshot crew to pull it off. IMHO the crew would have been utilized not to “improve” the one blade wide line but to fire from the line, thus increasing the width of the dozer push by removing available fuel and eventually meeting the main fire front. It has also been discussed that conditions were not ideal to support a firing operation – my opinion is it was their last ditch effort to steer the fire around Yarnell and Glen Ilah other wise there was no stopping it. Firing operations are complicated even under idea conditions, but in mid afternoon under the existing conditions timing for this type of hail mary plan would be critical, thus the need to have GM speed up if possible coming off the mountain. So again IMHO who ever made the request captured on the video knew the window to pull this off was closing and they needed the crew ASAP if it was going to work, As I have stated before I have no legitimate proof of this, its all my opinion based on the facts we do have (thanks WTKTT and others) and what I have experience in my career.
Rep;y to Norb Szczurek post on December 31, 2016 at 3:44 pm
>> Norb Szczurek
>>
>> So again IMHO who ever made the request captured on
>> the video ( the 3:27 PM Yarnell-Gamble video taken by
>> Blue Ridge Hotshot Ronald Gamble ) knew the window
>> to pull this off was closing and they needed the crew
>> ASAP if it was going to work,
Exactly.
SPGS1 Gary Cordes has testified to ADOSH that he had absolutely no doubts that DIVSA Eric Marsh and Granite Mountain were “headed to the Boulder Springs Ranch”… and he ALSO testified that he ALSO had absolutely no doubts that they had had ( quote ) “plenty of time to get there”.
Blue Ridge Hotshot turned DOZB/HEQB Cory Ball testified, in no uncertain terms, that it was ALSO Gary Cordes who ‘assigned’ ( sic: ordered ) him “and one other” to focus on ( perhaps ) putting an ’emergency dozer line’ in to the “southwest” of Yarnell ( as in… in the area where the Boulder Springs Ranch was ).
So it is actually possible that when SPGS1 Gary Cordes gave this ’emergency dozer line’ assignment to Cory Ball…Cordes could have been under the assumption that not only was DIVSA Eric Marsh ALREADY THERE in the ‘Boulder Springs Ranch’ area… but so was the entire Granite Mountain Hotshot crew.
The ‘one other’ that Cory Ball refers to in his ‘Unit Log’ COULD have actually been DIVSA Eric Marsh himself.
If Cordes either KNEW ( or was just ‘assuming’ ) that DIVSA Eric Marsh really WAS right there near the Boulder Springs Ranch somewhere then this is what his ‘assignment’ to Cory Ball could have actually sounded like…
WARNING: Some ‘Imagineering’ is about to take place. Buyer beware. We still don’t know exactly what was said to Cory Ball and ADOSH was unable to interview ANY of the Blue Ridge Hotshots. So when Cory Ball reports in his ‘Unit Log’ that he got this ‘assignment’ from Gary Cordes… we still have to just ‘imagine’ what that actually ‘sounded’ like over the radio…
*Maybe* it went something like this…
—————————————————————————
Gary Cordes:Dozer Boss Ball, Structure One Cordes. You there?
Cory Ball: Yep. I’m here. What’s up.
Gary Cordes: You still with the dozer?
Cory Ball: Yep. We’re headed to that staging are where the loboy is there at the end of Lakewood and Manzanita.
Gary Cordes: Copy that. Here’s what I need you to do. DIVSA Marsh has already come down from the anchor point and he’s over there near the Boulder Springs Ranch somewhere. The rest of Granite Mountain is following him off that ridge and they might already be over there, too. I need you to get with DIVSA Marsh and see if you can find ANY way to push a dozer line over there to the southwest of Yarnell, near that ranch, and then maybe fire it out to stop this fucking thing from just marching into Glen Ilah. Do you copy?
Cory Ball: I Copy… but be advised… Blue Ridge One ( Brian Frisby ) already told me that when Paul Morin and I get to that loboy staging area I have to run the Blue Ridge Chase truck with the UTV trailer the heck out of here and over to the Ranch House Restaurant where all the other Blue Ridge vehicles are now headed. So I’ll do that, then borrow an ATV and run right back out here and see if I can hook up with DIVSA Marsh.
Gary Cordes: Sounds like a plan.
—————————————————————————
At 4:27 PM… someone ( we still don’t know WHO ) contacts DIVSA Marsh directly and asks for ‘status’. Marsh is still somewhere near the Boulder Springs Ranch but he reports that ‘Granite Mountain’ has NOT arrived there yet. The person asking for ‘status’ now urges Marsh to get them to “hurry up” and Marsh’s reply is that they are “coming from the heel of the fire” and that is what is taking them so long.
At 4:28 PM… Cory Ball is only now arriving at the YFD to borrow the ATV. He heads right back out towards the dozer loboy staging area like he said he would… but only now discovers that the fire has CONTINUED to “outperform” everyone’s “expectations”… and Ball has lost the opportunity to even make it back to the loboy staging area.
Norb…the way I remember it, you were the first one to put the Hail Mary Plan forward that I bought into way back when and I haven’t changed my mind on that aspect yet. And yes…thank you for asking the question Diane and thank you WTKTT for answering it in detail to remind all of us where we are have been.
And yes…I agree with Norb one hundred percent that the job of Granite Mountain would have been to back fire from the dozer line. And for whatever it is worth…I agree with WTKTT that Marsh was either the author of the plan or the co-author of it.
Also as a reminder…I think it was the Woodsman who suggested the hunker down and stay safe order MAY have been in reference to hunkering down at the BSR and not on top? I don’t personally think that is the way it went down…but who knows, who knows?
Oh…and one more thing. Happy New Year to everyone!
And if anyone has been tracking the evolution of my thought process, I spent at least the first year defending Marsh by insisting that he must have been ordered by someone he could not say no to (Darrell Willis), to leave the black.
But that is when I only knew of the official reputation of Marsh and that is he was a squared away hotshot crew boss who valued the safety of his crew above else.
Of course I have learned the hard way that Marsh was anything but a crew boss like that and that he was in fact a very reckless leader who had the reputation of someone who played Russian Roulette routinely with not only his life, but the lives of his crew as well. I have said I pushed the envelope, but I never crossed that line.
The wildland firefighting profession is designed to reward the bold and punish the timid although wildfire can and does inflict the ultimate punishment on those who are too bold although that characteristic is also usually associated with other adjectives like…foolish, reckless, brazen, arrogant and full of hubris and sometimes just plain unlucky.
Most of those who died with Marsh were none of those things except unlucky enough to have leaders like Marsh and Steed. One area where my thinking has NOT changed is my ongoing disagreement with RTS that most of those who died did not have a choice on that fateful day, they were just cogs in an amped up supercharged wildland firefighting machine officially known as a hotshot crew.
Like most tragic events and.I refuse to say “accident”, because it wasn’t an accident, what happened was planned so it was an event (and that is just one reason why Marcia SHOULD prevail in her lawsuit if life was fair), the deaths on the YHF can’t be attributed to a single factor such as the crew leaders were too bold.
It was a series of factors that acted like falling dominoes that led to the ultimate end result. And sadly…if any one of those factors would have been removed from the equation…the YHF would be like tens of thousands of other wildfires, most of you would not even know that it happened.
Gary,
I am interested in your assessment of the factors that led to the hotshots deaths and how you believe it went down.
Whew…that is going to take a lot of review and writing, but I will try.
I still contend the GMHS all had choices that day, both individually and collectively, however, the very strong influence of GroupThink was frighteningly fatal.
The parallels to any and all decision-making, no matter the field, are cogently expressed in this paper about expert skiers killed in an avalanche..
“Goal Setting and Risk Perception: An Accident Analysis of the Tunnel Creek Avalanche”
http://www.sportgevity.com/article/goal-setting-and-risk-perception-accident-analysis-tunnel-creek-avalanche
“[Survivor] Megan Michelson expressed that ONCE THE PLAN …. WAS IN MOTION to ski Tunnel Creek and they actually left the back-country gate IT WAS DIFFICULT TO THINK OF REMOVING HERSELF FROM THE GROUP (Michelson, 2012). (EMPHASIS ADDED)
There occurred broken conversations of how to manage the run but not a full group conversation on how to do it safely (Branch, 2012). What Megan described is known as “group-think” which describes how groups come to a consensus too quickly and group members try to hang on to group membership that constrains critical thinking (Janis, 1972).”
Sounds a lot like the YH Fire on 30 June 2013!
Broken conversations on how to manage the run, difficulty in removing oneself from the group, coming to consensus too quickly, and group members trying to hang on to group membership, constraining critical thinking.
It’s safe to say that ALL of these took place in one form or another on the YH Fire as well as other fatal wildfires.
I keep thinking of poor John Percin, Jr.
The Yarnell Hill Fire was only the SECOND time he had ever been out on an ‘actual’ wildland fire.
Every alarm bell in his head might have been going off as they left the black… especially when he heard Jesse Steed himself expressing ‘reservations’ about the ‘move’… but this being only his ‘second’ fire ( ever )… he must have just accepted the fact that Steed wouldn’t endanger his life ( and everyone else’s ) just to keep his job situation.
He was wrong.
John Percin Jr.’s SECOND wildland fire became his LAST one.
Good point WTKTT.
And of course by “planned event”, I mean the crew was exactly WHERE they intended to be, exactly WHEN they planned to be there, doing exactly WHAT they were doing.
The same exact thing can be said for the Yarnell Hill Fire. So no one should have been surprised by what happened, because it was a planned event.
i’m wondering about the difference between saying “hunker down and be safe” and “hunker down,be safe and we will get air support as soon as possible”
Reply to diane Lomas post on January 2, 2017 at 10:27 am
>> diane Lomas said…
>>
>> i’m wondering about the difference between saying
>> “hunker down and be safe” and “hunker down,be safe
>> and we will get air support as soon as possible”
FWIW… OPS1 Todd Abel never said “hunker DOWN”
He also used the word ‘then’ between ‘hunker and be safe’ and THEN ‘we’ll get some air support down there ASAP’.
Here again is the transcript of that ‘Rovbert Caldwell’ video…
Video filename in the SAIT evidence folder:
Robert_Caldwell_IMG_0749_2389.MOV
The video is only 12 seconds long.
—————————————————————————
THIS CALDWELL VIDEO STARTS AT EXACTLY 1550:08 ( 3:50:08 PM )
+0:00 ( 1550:08 / 3:50:08 PM )
DIVSA – Eric Marsh – sounding frustrated and/or digusted ): …Yea… I’m tryin’ to work my way off the top.
+0:04 ( 1550:12 / 3:50:12 PM )
OPS1 – Todd Abel: Okay… I copy… ah… just keep me updated… ah… ya know… you guys hunker and be safe and then… ah… we’ll get some air support down there ASAP.
THIS CALDWELL VIDEO ENDS AT 1550:20 ( 3:50:20 PM )
——————————————————————
Reply to Robert the Second ( RTS ) post on December 25, 2016 at 9:07 am
>> RTS said…
>>
>> WTKTT,
>> Thanks for you reply and insight on the recuse issue.
The ‘conflict of interest’ question here when it comes to ‘Judges’ and what cases they should or should NOT be ‘sitting on the bench’ for is not as ‘clear cut’ as some might think.
It’s not nearly as ‘clear cut’ a ‘conflict of interest’, for example, as some head of state owning properties and having ‘business’ interests in countries that he is ‘making deals’ with, and quite possibly just making decisions that might further his ‘OWN’ and/or his ‘company’ and/or his ‘family members’ interests.
It is ‘assumed’ that Judges are ‘supposed’ to be capable of ‘sitting on the bench’ for multiple ‘related’ cases and still be able to render unbiased ‘opinons’.
But I actually believe the reason we have NOT seen a ‘written opinion’ yet in the Yarnell Property Damage consolidated lawsuits ( which had their ‘oral arguments’ quite some time ago ) is because these Arizona Division 1 Appeals Court Judges ( Peter Swann, etc. ) were/are VERY much aware that these ‘consolidated wrongful death’ lawsuits were ALSO ‘in the APPEAL hopper’… and they might be trying to just ‘coordinate’ the official ‘release’ of their opinions in BOTH of these ‘appeals’ ( which BOTH originated from the same lower court judge, Richard Gama ) so they ‘appear’ at the SAME TIME.
Since the cases ARE so ‘directly’ related’… and involve almost ‘identical’ legal issues… they ( the Appeals Court Judges ) might want to be sure they ‘sync up’ on their official ‘decisions’ so as not to ‘telegraph’ their thinking in either case, and to also face whatever ‘controversey’ might arise from their decisions in BOTH cases all at the same time.
But it’s still hard to say when that ‘time’ will be ( when they finally release their decision(s) in BOTH of these Yarnell cases ).
They really can’t ‘sit on it’ too much longer without getting into some real trouble.
They can’t ‘sandbag’ forever. There are LAWS about THAT, too.
Their decisions ( in BOTH cases ) are going to be ‘controversial’ either way, so they might as well ‘suck it up’ and get on with it and allow the ( most likely ) additional/further ‘appeals’ to get rolling.
>> RTS also said…
>>
>> Merry Christmas and Happy New Year
And ‘Happy Holiday Season’ right back atcha!
– Happy first day of Christmas ( 12 Days – Christmas Day until the evening of the 5th January – also known as Twelfth Night. )
– Happy second day of Hanukkah ( 8 days – Sunset, 24 December to nightfall, 1 January )
– Happy Kwanzaa eve ( 7 days – December 26 through January 1 )
…nó cuma cad a roghnaíonn tú chun ceiliúradh ag an am seo den bhliain
( or whatever you choose to celebrate at this time of year ).
Have a good one… then ( I suppose ) it’s back to what seems to have become the real challenge of our time.
Separating FACT from the FICTION that so many are now so willing to ‘put out’ at light speed solely in pursuit of their own ‘agendas’.
“A LIE can travel halfway around the world before the TRUTH even has a chance to put its boots on”
( Author unknown, but most often ‘attributed’ to Samuel Clemens ( Mark Twain ) )
The ‘modern’ update to that old quote, of course, in the new ‘Twitter’ world… is the distance traveled. The LIES can NOW go multiple times AROUND the entire ‘world’ before the TRUTH even has a chance to enter the picture.
My favorite day is the Winter Solstice and Shortest Day of the Year, December 21st!
http://earthsky.org/earth/everything-you-need-to-know-december-solstice
Here I go again about the retardant.
Yesterday I had a nice visit in Scottsdale with my daughter Melissa. She is very successful person–the kind of daughter that her father can be proud of. Joy, my daughter, and I went looking for some clothes for Joy–there was a black Santa in front of one of the stores–and I told him first I see a Santa as black as you. We all had a good laugh, since this guy was real. Joy stuffed a five in his pocket and said this if for you–a first–Santa gets a gift instead of giving one.
So on the trip home we stopped at the Dollar Store in Congress. Paula. who we know from Yarnell where she was staying for a time, tells us that there are nine people that have died in the past two weeks from Yarnell and Congress–so many on her block that she is afraid for her own health. Folks that is a lot of dead ones, two she knew of heart attacks and even her close neighbor Brenda has suffered two–the last one major.–this is like a horror movie only real. See, that smoke covered and hovered Congress as well as Yarnell. In fact when we came down through there and then Wickenburg, some 15 more miles south of Congress, the smoke was so bad even in Wickenburg that we did not want to hang around there and instead on that June 30, 3013 we decided to go on to Phoenix then proceeded from there back on I-17 back to Prescott.
So Joy had a personal conversation with Woody Grantham and some of it was about the retardant. If you google Woody Grantham you will see the huge dumps of retardant from his plane he has done in the past while working as a pilot for the FS dumps. When Joy mentioned the many deaths after the retardant dumps in Yarnell, he explained that new companies and new chemicals are involved. He said in the old days things were different–even the retardants used were different. And today we have no answer as to what the trade secret ingredients are in the retardant. Since those chemicals can range from 10 to 16% of the orange slop, they could be anything. Maybe we better start looking into this crap since the old time retardant was different to the new and the old one was being produced by American Companies while the new retardant producers are not even from this country.
I can’t help but remember how little China gave a shit when they killed our dogs and cats with antifreeze infested pet food. They did not care as long as they enjoyed the profits. How about people making profits off these new retardant formulas–do they have any interest in how many died at Yarnell and Congress or whether people get ill from their hidden chemical formulas? I seriously doubt that another country is going to concern itself with anything that might cause it to loose profits. This is the cigarette company attitude multiplied by being companies not even tied to the US. What forest’s does Israel have so that retardant dumps are necessary and would affect their people?
He said when he was working Prison Crews were not being used–a good question is when did that practice start or perhaps Woody was not aware as a pilot and they were being used. Maybe some of the wild land fire fighters would know that answer.
What we see are the new ways of firefighting- A look and maybe we need to bring some of the old wild land fire fighters forward–even some of their ways of doing things. Woody Grantham has some points there. Interestingly his brother is the rancher on whose ranch land the Tenderfoot Fire started.
Well…you might really be on to something. I didn’t know the new slurry was different than the old slurry. And I do remember China making the tainted pet food. China has very low standards for just about everything as we all know, except for taking American jobs and sending back junk …or much worse.
Oh…and one more thing. Gina (PEOTUS) doesn’t TAKE our jobs from America…we (corporate money whores) send them…there is a difference.
And it’s really too bad about the “new and improved slurry.” We used to really like to wallow in it. It was especially nice after it dried and the manure smell went away because our fire clothes would stay standing up by themselves they were so crusty even after we crawled into paper sleeping bags.
We never had any real problems per se…it caused a lot of male impotence and some women did grow thick black hair on their chests, but those things were not bad things in themselves during the fire season.
I did hear about hotshots in R-5 growing manginas, but I never actually saw one myself. So…that may just be urban legend, either that, or maybe a lot of R-5 hotshots were born with manginas?
Gary there were never any of the mangina types in underground mining–maybe in the open pit operations and definitely in the mill operations. But we need all types in this world–who after all is going to do the light jobs that are better managed by those types. Good lord I have trouble sewing on a button with my fumble hands but no problem fitting them to a shovel or pick handle. I would doubt you would find many of the manginas on the wild land fire fighting jobs, although if so, in a clandestine manner. So those you refer to in the FS might be clandestine as well. But merry Christmas to all, and no matter your sexual preference to me as long as you respect mine–which preference you should easily ascertain.
Our good town of Glen Isla is getting plenty rain–a blessing since it will wash away much of the chemicals we have been breathing for months. This world could live a lot better without the chemicals mostly manufactured off of oil and as long as the oil companies and retardant companies continue their malpractices we will suffer the consequences. This country being the greatest consumer of these chemicals is also the greatest sufferer of cancers, heart diseases and other diseases related to our chemical addictions.
I am seeing that Trump wants to improve roads–what about producing more solar and wind power? No mention of getting away from oil derivatives toward things that will better the air, not taint the soils and influence people’s health.
`Some here have been good guinea pigs for the betterment of mankind. Heroes they are without knowing it–and thanks to your chemical dumping companies and their experiments the locals have proven that these chemical dumps of ammonium compounds mixed with iron oxide, clays we hope are not the usual asbestos infested types (many clays do have asbestos fibers) and we hope those used by foreign country have been tested), and the other 10-16% chemical concoction are eventually required to be known to public sources. That knowledge should be known, not trade secret not more than a child that eats the stuff should he get ill, only the doctor can know the substance he injested so the doctor may give remedy.
We allow common sense to override the ability of big companies to contaminate our environments–a shame to our polictical and judicial system. Anytime a company involves chemicals in substances we breath and come into contact with then that company needs to be held responsible–but if you are using asbestos laden clays or it can be shown that you make cyanide by running ammonia compounds over burning embers, then the results to health need to be compensated for those affected.
I like Israelis better than their adversaries. However, either side is after profits and all big business anywhere is prone to overlook health problems caused by their products when it cuts into profits. Big government agencies are easy to convince that these products are fine to dump in your back yard, but you can bet they and especially their wives concerned about their children will greatly object to. These FS agents upholding this chemical concoctions spread in our back yards are also FS agents beholding–but not to the common citizen paying their wage–but to the big business touting thier products.
But as in most corruption, you will find the most up at and near the top rung of the ladder. As Nixon would say, I knew nothing about what was going on. If Putin unintentionally exposed Hillary’s actions–for example arranging to use foundation funds for her own election benefits–then Putin has some recognition coming for his efforts. You can bet the next Secretary of State will be much more careful. Maybe someone can hack into the retardant company emails–would be nice to be a fly on the wall there if you did not mind being sprayed with retardant.
The real heroes of the 19 were the men swinging the Pulaski’s that day. They were doing the line to try to slow an advancing fire–following their obedience to strictly take orders–orders they fulfilled in a laborious manner.
Little did they know the careless actions of their bosses were about to needlessly take their lives. I wonder if I had been on that crew would I have been able to say as I did to Joy, hell no, we are not going down into that basin where death would be certain with only a change of wind–that being inevitable seeing that thunderstorms are in the NE with 106 degree bearing down on us at the present position on the two track above the death basin.
Could I have been the one rebel to say hell no–I did in the underground mining situation at the Ward mine where 7 other miners went back into a deadly situation where they were caught trapped inside the mine. That cost my job but I always knew in mining there was another job up the line–and I was back to work withing the week at Mt. Hope–mining Zinc ore there but at least not trapped or in the middle of a rock pile in a tunnel some quarter mile back in.
But in the military situation of being a wild land fire fighter–agree to strictly take orders even when you know you are headed into a deathly situation? How can this happen. Common sense tells me the leaders there were dunces when it came to protecting their men. They put their own interests above the safety of their men. I can pin no badge of honor on those bosses–nor any badges of honor on those that managed the Yarnell Wild Fire that has killed so many and those that allowed this small lightening fire to balloon into a full fledged killer fire–I recommend the badge of dishonor.
Well…God Bless you Sonny and all of God’s children on the eve of our dear Savior’s birth! Except for the top 1% of course, many of whom are now in PEOTUS Trump’s Cabinet.
I am a lot like you Sonny, I love all people which includes all current and former WF, even those who disagree with me or think I should keep my big fat pie hole shut, R-5 hotshots who have manginas, whether they were born with them or they developed them as a result of too many slurry facials, except for those who would harm me or someone else and the top 1%, which includes PEOTUS Trump and his Cabinet (except for the Generals and Nikki Haley).
I didn’t even ask Santa for any Sigs this year, I only ask for World Peace…through superior firepower of course. Because well, you know…better weapons bring better peace.
Now…I do want to remind you and everyone else, there have ONLY been three documented times since hotshots were created (in 1946 or 1947) in Southern California, which is the cradle of hotshot civilization (that is of course….gulp…R-5) that hotshot leaders did not put the welfare of their crews above their own personal and professional self interests. And those three times (need I list them again?) were on the Loop Fire of 1966, the Battlement Creek Fire of 1976 and the Yarnell Hill Fire of 2013.
So…that is a PRETTY good record overall (other than that Mrs. Lincoln…how was the play?)…right? Other than that, I want to wish EVERYONE a Merry Christmas or Happy Holidays…whichever way you roll, except for those exceptions previously listed in the preceding paragraphs! God Bless America!
Whoops…meant to post this link for those inquiring minds who want to know…
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interagency_hotshot_crew#History
I think I should have specified and given a shout out to the very special Cleveland and the Angeles National Forests for being the cradle of hotshot civilization, which of course is the ole hotshot stomping grounds of my dear friend Bob Powers, who played a key role in building the house that I inherited and whose shoulders I stood upon (yikes).
So…I want to wish the Bob and Bob (AKA RTS or Fred), who also got the start to his legendary career on the Angeles NF, Arroyo Seco District…a very special Merry Christmas! You know, because…well…blood is thicker than water.
And whenever you guys want to break down and tell me the rest of the story…I am all ears. The only thing is, I still can’t promise I won’t write all about it on this blog…I can only promise confidentiality to you or anyone else who wants to enlighten yours truly because well…it is the season of giving…right?
Although can you believe this? I mean…really!
I have said several times on this blog how quickly people forget. And this is now the hotshot fatal accident history on the repository for all of mankind’s knowledge that is most commonly used by the common person, which is of course Wikipedia.
I mean…how frickin hard would it be to get this part right?
Maybe I should edit it instead of just bitchin’ (non-gender specific) about it? They completely leave out the deaths of the El Cariso and Mormon Lake Hotshots!
“Fatal Accidents[edit]
On July 5, 1994, nine members of a hotshot crew based in Prineville, Oregon, died after being overtaken by the fast-moving Storm King fire west of Glenwood Springs, Colorado. Five other firefighters, three smokejumpers and two helitack firefighters, also died in the conflagration.[12]
On June 30, 2013, the Prescott Fire Department’s hotshot crew perished in the Yarnell Hill Fire near Yarnell, Arizona. Nineteen of the twenty members of the crew were killed when their escape route was cut off by an approaching fire, all nineteen entrapped members of the Granite Mountain Hotshots deployed their fire shelters.[13]”
Oh…and one more thing. As usual…they identify the fire on which the Prineville Hotshots died on as the Storm King Fire.
And as all of you know by now…it was the SOUTH CANYON Fire…on Storm King Mountain.
I am really starting to doubt the veracity of Wikipedia!
Merry Christmas, Ye Olde Codger Yet Magnificent Bastard! Merry Christmas, friend.
Woodsman
And Merry Christmas to you as well Woodsman! HO HO HO…maybe I had better lay off my bottle of holiday cheer? I hope Santa brings you more than a trump…I mean a clump…of coal!
Oh..and one more thing. I do want to send out a very special Merry Christmas to Joy!
Even though I already sent her one by private email, because she always is so harsh with me and gets so snippy whenever I mention Sonny and don’t mention her as well.
If it were not for you Gary, I doubt much would be considered about the deaths of the 19. It was a pittance given to the loved ones of $50,000 if that was all that was given by the state. I am one of the loved ones did not take the settlement and went forward. I doubt there will be any recompense for her but I applaud her for her efforts. I certainly believe that all the loved ones deserved payment evenly. It was not Marsh’s fault to be there –he was appointed by someone’s error. He certainly was ignorant in his actions and had he lived would have had repercussions for his actions that killed the men. These are things you and even RTS and Bob Powers have notified us about–and of course you are only the top of the list of the many retired wild land fire fighting bosses that pointed out how he carelessly acted against all good reason. Provencio and RTS had early warned about his actions, but the men in positions to listen did not and went on with the risk taking boss until he ended so many lives. Those men did not deserve to die nor bosses so prone to risk their lives. And it comes down to if you fellows did not point this out, then these habits of allowing dangerous bosses to continue in their ways will not be addressed. The bitter truth can only improve the system and save lives. So in my book you are all heroes in standing up for he truth==and that will be proven despite the many that continue to keep their heads in the sand.
We are having a beautiful white Christmas here. The rain turned to snow and now I am eating snow ice cream with a little Southern Comfort added for flavor. It helps with the Christmas spirit–maybe calm the heart enough I will keep smiling for some time. Good lord of the Irish, what is the Guinness records on heart attacks. Seven is enough for this year–and I am one that damn sure is not trying to make a record of them. So we keep on keeping on because there is plenty left to do–and maybe it will be some value.
And another thing, I have never had a heart attack after a few drinks. The attacks were just outside a cardiologist office or early in the morning when I had not had a good stiff drink for a week or so. So a good Southern Comfort mix is a good blood thinner. And for a good formula for SC ice cream–a couple shots of SC in a big bowl of snow, add liquid canned milk if you have it–I am using dry milk to taste with some fresh milk added–the SC helps melt the snow–add a couple tablespoons of brown sugar and if you like a little egg nog. And perhaps a bit of cinnamon. It will all be good however you make it as long as you have two fingers or so of SC added. Some like vanilla added–but the SC suffices for me. It is after all the time of the year for good cheer.
My daughter and husband came up this evening but since her husband does not drive went home early==we had a blanket of snow coming down and despite her having a fancy land rover with automatic 4×4 she was afraid going back down the mountain in the snow. They made it back to Phoenix OK but told me she passed a bad wreck with two overturned cars–they met heavy rain once down near Wickenburg.
She left a large package for Leo–that old Mexican fellow broken down that lives near the tracks in Aguila. Joy and I had offered him a place to stay either on my five acres out of Aguila or the cabin in Yarnell. I however understand that he was quite happy in Aguila==undoubtedly he did find shelter during the rain there. Well he has a nice package now and a good bottle of wine with it–I don’t know what else, but knowing my daughter beside the food there will be some money there. Old Santa did not forget that Mexican after all and if we find him I will try to get his smile on camera and send it to my daughter.
Good tidings–especially to all those that contribute or read the IM. If you are doing either it means you are certainly concerned for the wild land fire fighter –those heroes that deserve the best yet too much overlooked.
If I were Mr. Trump, the billionaire, the first thing I would do would be doubling wages to every wild land fire fighter and being sure that should he die his loved ones–wife and children were taken care of starting with at least 250 grand with lifetime benefits for wife and scholarships for all the children.
It is almost a new year and I am looking forward to the challenges of doing another one. Merry Christmas to all-may the Irish Gods grant you great blessings–like my own–for your year and years ahead.
Yes there are some strange things in this world. Sometimes people do not report them for various reasons–well for instance it used to be the inquisition–that has been throttled down some these days, but then photographs do not lie.
Well even those today with certain individuals who are able to make a photo tell a lie. But Joy’s photos of the fire did not lie and she does not use the various tricks that photographers can use to make deception.
It is said that the government is ahead of us by 50 years with their knowledge of technology. NASA is a branch of the military and definitely any science that is found will be withheld if it is decided by the Honcho in charge that the info need be classified.
But Joy’s photos do not need to be classified–perhaps. When me met some 8 years ago I pointed out some UFO’s about Dolan Springs. Dolan was known for UFO sightings. Joy being the one to verify these things photographed these things–lights in the night unexplained. Well one of here photos shows a green laser shooting to the ground. Another when blown up some shows several small lights surrounding the larger light. Another identifies an object with doors. See these are real–whether it is the Irish Gods visiting or just your NASA fellows and area 51 doing their thing with their trade secrets we have no clue.
I do know the military is much in command when it comes to forest fires and their management. This came about from the wars and their need to protect the country–Japan was floating incendiary devices over and that gave the Military control and direct input into Forestry problems. Maybe why the wild land fire crews are based upon a military model.
There are many things we are unaware of–even perhaps Hillary–a good thing in her case if dealing with national security. But then we could classify controlled and uncontrolled burns as prescribed as classified information under military restrictive rules and based upon national security agenda.
That would allow the NASA satellite images as restricted and redacted under those rules. But we have Putin and his satellites not restricted by the rules of US Military. Will he give us a look at those to know what really is going on with these fires? He might just to needle us. But then it would be nice for NASA to be straight with us since Putin and likely the Chinese Reds already have the images that NASA purports to be confidential.
Wouldn’t those images really give us a true view of what went on during every death fire? These are the things we ought to be shown considering those fires cost so many lives. I won’t hold my breath for the redacted images since under military scrutiny much can be with held.
However Joy’s images of these UFO lasers is real but what they mean or whether they belong to the Irish Gods, the US Military, Russian Military or other sources I do not know.
But I do know do not believe your propaganda. It is likely another need to know and classified–national safety that we do not know the truth.
Are we the most honest government in the world. Well look at our leaders if you want an answer. Trump called Hillary a liar. He was not wrong, but what about Trump?
The only error you might make Gary is not to publish your book. Your expertise in matters of fire fighting are necessary for the education of young fire fighters. What you have said here will surely save lives and once in book form ought to be a required reading for every new wild land fire fighter.
You have the knowledge, wisdom and language to encourage the young ones to charge forward in a way that will keep them alive. Accidents do not really happen–it is the fuck ups that causes the deaths and those fuck ups are what you address in proper lingo.
Thanks for your input–I stand corrected at times myself, but then I have an excuse–not being a wild land fire fighter–but I am grateful for your posts. I have learned so much from them and if it were not for loving mining, I likely would have been right there with the wild land fire fighter.
My concerns are because I lost a young son for similar reasons the 17 died. The boss neglected to do keep watch over things. Of course my son was tied up in a boat winch so that his arm was dislodged from his body. The nerves were severed so that the arm atrophied and never had feeling, but eventually death came from the prescribed medications he was using to be able to stand the excruciating pain. It was change of doctor and medications that killed him–but all that was due to some boss not replacing a safety device when he knew it was faulty and could take a life. I do not know what would be more painful–having your arm torn from your body or the excruciating burns a wild land fire fighter can get.
So we do hope you continue with your pursuit of getting the truth and facts out that will help the young ones stay alive.
I certainly have a distrust of big business. They are in these contracts for money and the bigger the contract the better they come out financially. Their stock holders are happy for dividends. It adds up to working around health issues, etc. It is sad when money overrides the value of human life. I am thoroughly convinced after much study on the retardant and knowing the skewed death count in Yarnell that the retardant is deadly to those already compromised in health. It is like taking an old man ill in health and putting him in a gas chamber with weak deadly gas. The young man might survive but the old one will die for certain.
The only error you might make Gary is not to publish your book. Your expertise in matters of fire fighting are necessary for the education of young fire fighters. What you have said here will surely save lives and once in book form ought to be a required reading for every new wild land fire fighter.
You have the knowledge, wisdom and language to encourage the young ones to charge forward in a way that will keep them alive. Accidents do not really happen–it is the fuck ups that causes the deaths and those fuck ups are what you address in proper lingo.
Thanks for your input–I stand corrected at times myself, but then I have an excuse–not being a wild land fire fighter–but I am grateful for your posts. I have learned so much from them and if it were not for loving mining, I likely would have been right there with the wild land fire fighter.
My concerns are because I lost a young son for similar reasons the 17 died. The boss neglected to do keep watch over things. Of course my son was tied up in a boat winch so that his arm was dislodged from his body. The nerves were severed so that the arm atrophied and never had feeling, but eventually death came from the prescribed medications he was using to be able to stand the excruciating pain. It was change of doctor and medications that killed him–but all that was due to some boss not replacing a safety device when he knew it was faulty and could take a life. I do not know what would be more painful–having your arm torn from your body or the excruciating burns a wild land fire fighter can get.
So we do hope you continue with your pursuit of getting the truth and facts out that will help the young ones stay alive.
I certainly have a distrust of big business. They are in these contracts for money and the bigger the contract the better they come out financially. Their stock holders are happy for dividends. It adds up to working around health issues, etc. It is sad when money overrides the value of human life. I am thoroughly convinced after much study on the retardant and knowing the skewed death count in Yarnell that the retardant is deadly to those already compromised in health. It is like taking an old man ill in health and putting him in a gas chamber with weak deadly gas. The young man might survive but the old one will die for certain.
Thank you Sonny, I am trying.
New update on the death count here in Yarnell. Joy and I went to the American Legion today for their taco Tuesday event–every Tuesday from 5pm until about 6.
We are both members of that organization, but you do not have to be a member to get tacos and enjoy a meal there and socialize when they serve meals. Otherwise if you are not a member, grab a member and you can go in anytime for visits.
The first death I will talk about is Brent Yadon. He was looking into the trade secret ingredients for the retardant for us. Brent and I shared birthdays same day of December. He was into egineering and quite intelligent. He was not sick before the fire and some time after started going downhill. He was 57 years and died on Christmas Day in the veterans hospital in Prescott. Sad news to learn at the Legion this afternoon.
The next death is Stevie. We don’t know her age and not really acquainted with her. Jeff’s mother is next. Kathy Hunter Grover informed us there were 5 deaths in the past few days, but she did not have the names of the other two.
Bob Kramer was on national news during the Yarnell Wildfire–his home right on 89, about a quarter mile north of the Ranch House Cafe, was shown as it burned to the ground. Bob was left with nothing but the jeep he was driving. He is now barely hanging on to life. His home was doused with retardant in the Tenderfoot Fire ordeal.
These are the kinds of facts that the retardant companies and the FS honchos do not want you to know. But I will keep on the watch–well have Joy help me on this as long as I can hold on. We know that every heart attack weakens the heart that much more. I am now beginning to feel the effects of the last one as I was trying to do what should have been an easy thing for me today. Even rounding up my dogs can be taxing. Can I lay my malaise to the retardant? How about Joy who is now visiting a cardiologist and now finding herself limited in her activities? She is a young age at 44.
We may never go beyond educating people of the dangers of putting ammonium sulphates and nitrates onto burning embers–that creates cyanide. But would it not be wonderful to know also what clays are being used since many clays contain asbestos fibers. Also is it not wise to know that ammonia gas given off by the retardant kills lung cells which never regenerate–so do not be a smoker since you will reduce your smoking life. And no I am not against smoking or even bathing in that agent orange retardant if you like–you can even smoke it for all I care if that is what you want to do. To me as an American, you ought to be able to poison yourself if you are so inclined, but keep that shit off my yard and at least be honest with the public as to what that retardant is, including the hidden chemicals that people who distribute them are so inclined to keep secret.
It is certainly sad when chemicals can be spread upon a population and yet what they are and their effects upon health can be hidden under so called “Trade Secret Laws”. How many different chemicals are they dousing us with beside the already poisonous ammonia compounds, red iron oxide powders, triolite particles from the clay dust along with possible asbestos fibers in that clay. Nothing in that retardant seems to me to be suitable for human contact and it certainly is an aquatic life killer.
I suspect the death count will soon be over 150 since it is already approaching that number since the Yarnell fire, and now we are seeing an escalation in the effects since the hundreds of thousands of gallons more of that shit due to the burn out the local fire department made during the Tenderfoot Fire. Are our heroes killing us without knowing what their actions have done?
A tribute to Brent Yadon–He was compromised in his health being a quadriplegic from a traffic accident. We shared the same birth day and both of Irish descent. Brent was much younger at 57 but had the spirit of the fighting Irish. He was in good health though in that wheel chair from a spinal injury in a car roll over. He was one forward looking and not inclined to give up. Yet after the last retardant dump very close to his residence Joy and I began to notice a deterioration in his health. A few weeks ago he was admitted into the hospital and we just learned yesterday of his death.
It takes no wild land fire fighter to know that the burn out was not at all necessary on the Tenderfoot Fire. But it brought in thousands of gallons of retardant on the east side of Yarnell and Brent lives within a quarter mile of those dumps. That made lots of money for someone in that business. But Bob Cramer lives right adjoining he retardant dumps–it is in his back yard. He has since the dump now been admitted to the hospital–and because his medicare is not covering the hospice thing he is at home with a caregiver. Keep that god damned shit out of our towns and away from the old people–it is killing folks that can not handle its poisonous effects.
We are grateful now for the good rains and snows of the past few days. It will dilute the chemicals and perhaps the fresh air on Mountainaire drive will return. Maybe old Sonny will recover from the seventh heart attack since the Yarnell fire–maybe I already have beat the odds. So I can smile since November was my prediction by the good doctors of my own demise. What the hell, the New Year about to show up and those good Irish Gods and Goddesses are waiting for me to join them. But they will just have to wait a bit longer–I am like Brent–in there till I can’t be in there with the best until the end.
I am having an egg nog and Crown Royal for Jesus and the Irish Gods and Goddesses. If you ever noticed on the movie where there was a rapture, the only ones left included the preacher. Old Jesus and company passed on that fellow.. Remember Peter whacked off the ear of some ass hole and according to scripture Peter was tops with Jesus. Well the Pope likes him too.
People say life is what you make it. To some degree that is true, but then the gods made DNA so that some are fuck ups no matter what they do. Nothing you can do in those situations.
Charlie,
Thank you for sharing your thoughts about the retardant as well as how it has and is affecting citizens of Yarnell.
“Are our heroes killing us without realizing what they have done”
Does this refer to the retardant?
Dianne, Yes that is what is happening–you see most of the people involved with retardants are brain washed into believing the substance is inert concerning human health. They do admit it kills fish since the accidental dumps in the However there incidents where only 2000 gallons accidentally dropped in the Fall River of Oregon that quickly killed all the fish along a four mile stretch–some 20,000 fish in 2002 died there.
Here is a quotation from Dr. Weil, MD: “An air tanker fighting a wildfire in central Oregon accidentally dumped as much as 2,000 gallons of flame retardant into Fall River, killing nearly all of the fish along a four-mile stretch.
The chemicals also reached the Deschutes River above the central Oregon town of Sunriver.
“The water just went from crystal clear to opaque red,” said Steve Avery, a fisherman who was on the Fall River when the retardant flowed downstream Thursday afternoon. “We saw dead fish, everything from 8-inch hatchery red-sides to 24-inch brown trout. It was just awful.” as told by fishermen along the banks while the river turned blood red.
Here is a quote from a 2014 article about retardants as put out on the Dr. Andrew Weil, MD, blog when asked if retardants are poisonous:
“An air tanker fighting a wildfire in central Oregon accidentally dumped as much as 2,000 gallons of flame retardant into Fall River, killing nearly all of the fish along a four-mile stretch.
The chemicals also reached the Deschutes River above the central Oregon town of Sunriver.
“The water just went from crystal clear to opaque red,” said Steve Avery, a fisherman who was on the Fall River when the retardant flowed downstream Thursday afternoon. “We saw dead fish, everything from 8-inch hatchery red-sides to 24-inch brown trout. It was just awful”.
Here is a 2014 updated article from Dr. Weil, MD, Blog: “Flame retardants do appear to present a threat to health, and may potentially do more harm than good in a fire. A British study presented at the March 2012 national meeting of the American Chemical Society (ACS) showed that flame retardants increase the danger of invisible toxic gases, the leading cause of death in fires. The study found that today’s most widely used products contain the hazardous chemical element bromine, and that they actually increase amounts of carbon monoxide and hydrogen cyanide released during fires.” The complete article can be googled and mentions long term effects and chemicals in the retardant that are finding their way into the soil , rivers, lakes and drinking water. Some of those chemicals are similar to the DDT that people used to spray crops and are permanent pollutants that eventually help increase the cancer rate long term.
The hydrogen cyanide gas produced in concentrated form might be still used to put criminals to death. The cyanides produced by dropping the retardant on embers is left behind are another deadly pollutant. Bromine is another concern to health and I suspect it is one of the hidden ingredients where the companies can hide it under their so called trade secret laws.
Anyhow when you read about 20000 fish being killed with only 2000 gallons then I look at our Yarnell dumps of about 500,000 gallons and I have no wonder about the health problems and death toll that have so greatly escalated since the fire. I too wonder how much of this will leach into the water supplies of the area since many of those chemicals produced do not break down but continue into the water tables of the area.
As for the retardant effects you can find many medical practitioners that know about the problems the chemicals can cause. Dr. Mercola, Osteopathic Physician, writes: ”
In fact, flame retardant chemicals have been identified as one of 17 “high priority” chemical groups that should be avoided to reduce breast cancer.3,4 These chemicals are also poisoning both pets and wildlife, according to recent tests. Yet, despite their wide-ranging health risks, they continue being used—ostensibly because they save lives in case of fire. But is the accumulated cost to human and environmental health really worth it?”
When the medical profession writes articles like this then you can believe this retardant is not safe for humans, pets, fish or the environment.
Then you go to the articles written by FS people and among wild land fire fighter elite who question the use of retardant and its effectiveness. Dr. Ted Putnam put me wise to that and said that fire retardant generally only slows a fire. Well common sense when you have winds of 40mph then that retardant is a futile effort as it was in Yarnell to save anything. But obviously the bill to drop this pollutant runs into the millions even for the dumps made during the Yarnell Hill and Tenderfoot fires.
Anyone who says this orange stuff is safe has not studied the facts from knowledgeable people. One thing now though if the politicos do stand up and take notice of how many have died after the Yarnell and tenderfoot fires the will perhaps take action to keep that shit far away from humans. Here the only justification I could have seen using retardant would be to have dumped loads around the 19, although it is doubtful that even there it would have done any good. I believe water would have been better–maybe something the wild land fire fighters can weigh in on.
My opinion is at this point that the only good this retardant is doing is to keep the corporate fellows pocket books fat while they deny the dangers of its use.
Apologize for the mistakes in the above: Should have re read it before–Idea is that DR. Weil and Dr. Mercado are just a couple of the many that tell us the truth about the retardant and its effects on health.
I am not happy with the Tenderfoot ordeal after we were already doused with over 200 thousands of gallons of that orange retardant during the Yarnell fire. That back burn or burn out was absolutely unnessary and actually caused the need to drop hundreds of thousands of gallons to fix the burnout that was needlessly put in place. There are plenty of bunglers in the wild land fire fighting business. The deaths of the 19 accent that statement–and I see now that many things in wild land fire fighting need to be addressed and changed.
Thanks for your curiosity and questions Dianne–they ought to help spur some of these educated fire gods that things need to be done to greatly reduce wild land fire fatalities and to keep that agent orange look alike retardant off our citizens and out of their yards.
The Yarnell dumps did no good to save Yarnell but they have certainly made guinea pigs out of the population and reduced it by what is now approaching a third of the population since the Yarnell and now Tenderfoot hundreds of thousands of gallons of poisons sloshed right into our very yards.
I have a filter both on my kitchen sink and on my shower. I did look at the water pollutants when I came here–Well Joy got the list for me. Of course the ppm of poisons are there but under Federal Standards and with the poisonous chlorine added this water locally is said to be safe to drink. Well I just changed the filters that have been there for a while and they are now gray in color–exactly the same color of a lead bullet. So that grey matter, likely lead, antimony and other grey heavy metals would be situated in my body had I not put those filters in. I will change them sooner since I see the chemicals are there in greater concentrations than the paper I have wants me to believe.
Reply to Charlie post on
December 29, 2016 at 12:33 pm
>> Charlie said…
>>
>> Dianne, Yes that is what is happening–you see
>> most of the people involved with retardants
>> are brain washed into believing the substance
>> is inert concerning human health.
And despite all its denials that there anything ‘unsafe’ in the ( still not fully known ) list of ‘chemicals’ included in most aerially applied fire retardants… the United States Forest Service still actively maintains it’s own HUGE list of ‘Avoidance Areas’ where the shit is NEVER supposed to be ‘dropped’.
The United States Forest Service ( USFS ), at taxpayer expense, maintains its own PUBLIC, interactive MAPPING tool online which shows exactly there the THOUSANDS of designated “do NOT drop retardant here” zones are across the United States.
That ‘interactive’ “do NOT drop retardant here” MAP is here…
USFS Aerial Fire Retardant Avoidance Map Viewer
http://usfs.maps.arcgis.com/apps/webappviewer/index.html?id=53c2f30ed89f429b93f2e09dc3336ad0
From the ‘info’ box that appears when this interactive viewer first loads…
——————————————————
Welcome to the USDA Forest Service’s
Aerial Fire Retardant Avoidance Viewer
This webpage displays the most current ( aerial retardant drop zone avoidance area ) information, valid as of April, 2016.
TEPCS avoidance information is shown at all scales, while hydrographic avoidance is shown when zoomed.
For additional information, please see the “USFS Wildland Chemicals Home Page” ( clickable link ).
Authoritative georeferenced Aerial Fire Retardant Avoidance maps may be found at the “NIFC ftp Server” ( clickable link ).
Please contact Tim Love at tblove (at) fs.fed.us for any questions or concerns.
——————————————————–
So if the shit is ‘supposedly’ PERFECTLY SAFE… WHY does this official ‘Drop Zone Avoidance Area’ project ( paid for with taxpayer dollars, of course ) even exist?
Charlie,
Thank you for the information about Woody Grantham. I googled him and read some of the news articles about him.
I thought it was interesting that he felt more could have been done for the hotshots from air attack based on his experience.
Correction–meant to say Mrs McKee that did not take a settlement deserves much credit there.
Reply to Charliec post on December 24, 2016 at 11:04 pm
>> Chaliec said….
>>
>> Correction–meant to say Mrs McKee that did not take a settlement
>> deserves much credit there.
She certainly does.
Maybe one day soon… HER ‘complete’ story will be told… including the abuse she has had to suffer at the hands of the Prescott Fire Department, the’Fire Gods’ in general… and this infamous ‘Arizona 100 Club’. ( Sic: Sharon Kutson-Felix ).
All she has ever wanted to know is the ‘whole truth’ ( as much as it is possible to know ) about why her best friend and only son ( Grant McKee ) had to die a horrible, needless death on June 30, 2013… and she has been treated like a pariah for it.
Correction… the infamous ‘leader’ of this ‘Arizona 100 Club’ who was forced to RESIGN over the controversy regarding how she was ‘doling out’ the PUBLIC donations after the Yarnell tragedy is/was ‘Sharon Knutson-Felix’ ( not Kutson-Felix ).
Dianne –Very good tidings to you as well–I especially like your questions and the replies you get–You think of some things and point out a lot of others we tend to skip or minimize. Thanks for your participation.
It is a small world. Joy ran into RTS at the McKee hearing. She said he was a big guy much alike her Dad. Joy’s Dad was 6’9″ and weiged in around 300. I was not there so don’t know what that was all about.
human health risk assessment of wildland fire … – US Forest Service
If you google this site you will find a study put out by the FS on risk posed to wild land fire fighters and others exposed to retardant. One is classed as a pretty potent substance and loaders and transporters of that particular formula are at a higher risk. No mention of the chemicals except the nitrates are listed.
FS advises that if retardant falls on your garden you are advised not to consume produce from that garden. The suggestion is that the garden will have high nitrate content but they do not mention what other chemicals it will have. Babies with a certain problem involving oxygen shortage in the blood are subject to high danger if they consume these high nitrate levels. The lungs are compromised so even less oxygen gets to the blood.
The study gives us enough information to know that retardant certainly is not great for human consumption or even contact. The FS even warns you not to consume things like wild berries or mushrooms where retardant has landed.
Well hoopty doo–how about a real life FS supported study of the guinea pigs of Yarnell–there is enough sickness here along with the death count of nearly one third of the population already dead after the hundreds of thousands of gallons of retardant dropped in succession with the Yarnell and Tenderfoot fires. Talk about a horror movie even more dramatic than the 19 killed, how about a movie on the experiment of Yarnell that killed a third of our population in less than 5 years. As if the first round of deadly pollutants was not enough, the second round had to be layered on.
Bromine is a constituent of fire retardant–likely one of the hidden chemicals in FS fire retardants. It certainly is in home retardants but then we will not know the trade secret amounts. Here is a bit of interesting information on Bromine —
Health effects of bromine. Bromine is corrosive to human tissue in a liquid state and its vapors irritate eyes and throat. Bromine vapors are very toxic with inhalation. … Some forms of organic bromines, such as ethylene bromine, can even cause cancer. Not something you want to be hanging around with.
Add another lung killer, Bromine to the ammonium phospate lung killer and you have amplified effects.
This saturation of the Yarnell area was no good thing.
JD and IM are doing good work at exposing environmental pollution from mine operations. That is extending to the pollution from the wild land fire retardants and the deadly substances they cause withing the environment.
The FS is weighing what they consider the good uses of retardant against the effects on human health. Yarnell is the Guinea Pig for the nation.
THE HAIL MARY PLAN
I have brought this topic up before and it was briefly discussed but there wasn’t closure for me.
It appears that Eric Marsh may have been persuaded by this plan to undertake a move that those in the field must have known was dangerous and ill-advised. Somehow it became worth the risk with the understanding from Todd Able and other members of what appeared to be a team approach (Hail Mary Plan) to save Yarnell,etc. that Granite Mountain would be covered by air attack. As the hotshots made their way toward the Boulder Springs Ranch they were caught by the wildfire before they could arrive. Instead of covering Granite Mountain as discussed, air attack for an unknown reason spent 40 critical minutes laying down retardant in Peeple’s Valley which was no longer a priority area.
Since they were apparently part of the Hail Mary team why weren’t Todd Able and others advocating for air attack to move to Yarnell to assist Granite Mountain during this dangerous move they were making? Was Granite Mountain left to cope with the situation on their own without assistance as it appears or was something else going on?
Diane… see a longer ‘Reply’ up above…
http://www.investigativemedia.com/please-begin-yarnell-hill-fire-chapter-xxiv-here/#comment-466228
Back in the 70’s I was working as the only underground miner in a rat hole out of Pine Valley, California. Below was a ten ton mill run by some Hippies under the auspices of one Vern Harkness. It was a small gold mine–the mill was small enough I could keep it fed with my own efforts and I worked there for about two years. In fact, now Vern is dead, his grand son, last name, Washington Harkness contacted me to know something about his grandfather, my boss at that mine. Since I was his only miner, we did some weekend bar hopping as miners are noted to do.
There near the mine was a nice rose quartz vein and some old Spanish arrastras where the Spaniards had used slave Indian labor to grind down gold ore so like Vern’s modern ball mill and wiffle tables, the ore would be fine enough to wash out concentrates and separate the gold and silver values.
It was during that time and before I left California that I witnessed the first manzanita fires similar to the one we had here at Yarnell, Tenderfoot and the previous Doce fire. There more than even Yarnell huge tanker loads of that orange retardant were dumped in attempts to slow those manzaninita fires. I am of a mind that between the 50’s and present days there have been millions of tons of that phosphate and sulfate ammonium compounds spread upon the mountain sides near the Pacific Ocean and that covers an area all the way from San Diego to San Francisco.
So what has this to do with anything? All those chemicals are water soluble and as soon as rain comes the chemicals are washed into the Pacific Ocean. Now we see that people are amazed that thousands of dead fish are washing up on beaches between San Diego and San Francisco. You can not eat the crab or shell fish from California waters due to the toxins they now contain. Over a hundred dolphins have recently washed up dead not to mention a number of whales. The waters along those coasts have turned red from the red algae–coincidentally the same color of the retardants.
So what are the major nutrients needed by this algae to grow. They include carbon, nitrogen, phosphorus, and silicon There is plenty of carbon from wild fires and we all know that this fertilizer based retardant used on wild fires is high in nitrogen and nitrogen is what is needed and loved by plants to thrive–and so it goes with the red algae overgrowth–add even the phosphates for phosphorous and you have the reason that the red algae is blooming so well along the coast of California. This red algae kills aquatic life just the same as its nutrient giving wild fire retardant does. But you won’t hear much said about this because if truth were to be known people would demand a halt to these retardant drops. Yet we know this pollution has been accumulative over decades–something that might not be reversed, but continued ammonium phosphate, nitrate drops and fertilized fields will continue to make the situation worse.
It doesn’t take a dumb Hillbilly only to know that if you want the algae to do well, dump fertilizer on the water. And it doesn’t take a genius to understand how much fertilizer both from the massive retardant dumps and the massive use of fertilizer on California soils that has managed to find its way into the Pacific Ocean. Yet we have people scratching their heads as to why this killer algae is multiplying in massive and massive fish, aquatic life are dying while the shell fish and crab are now poisonous.
The human side is not even addressed in the issue. Joy and I visited the cardiologist today. She is in better straits than I am. But we discussed the morbid topic of the dead here–she thinks about 153 now. Well you do know about 150 residents left–many houses were not rebuilt after the burn and lots of people moved away –took their insurance and ran or decided to put property left up for sale and move on. Maybe a smart thing, but I was one of the dummies to remain. See if you divide 150 by 500 residents you come up with .3 or 30% of the population dead since the fire at Yarnell. Well .3333…. is one third of the population dead, a mark soon to be met since we know quite a number are now barely hanging on. Would you say old Sonny is among that bunch seeing I have now had 7 heart attacks? Joy does not look that good either hacking and puking for two days in a row and suffering chest pains and shortness of breath. Yet both she and I have excellent blood pressure readings. My own perfect today as was hers. Yet the doctor says the hearts are not getting enough oxygen.
Anyhow that was my idea of why your ocean along the California coast is in its death throes.
The nitrate content is high along the California Coast waters. Those fertilizers and retardant dumps deprive aquatic life of their oxygen needs and are causing the dead zones we see in California, Asia, Japan, and off the coasts of China. If you love your retardant–you do not know its deadly effects upon life–aquatic and human.
Oh the one nutrient silica I did not mention is also abundant in retardant. Clay is actually fine particles of silica compounds and adds to the already silty waters of the rivers feeding the ocean. But it is no wonder that the deadly algae is being fed so well–it is getting a well balanced diet of the chemicals it needs and in such amounts to create the dead zones. Domoic acid is the neurotoxin that accumulates in shell fish, sardines, and anchovies that is poisonous to humans and sea animals that consume those types fish. Exposure to the biotoxin affects the brain, causing them to become lethargic, disoriented, and have seizures that sometimes result in death. People that survive have permanent short term memory loss–sounds like Alzheimer a bit. Maybe also why some of the animals and whales seem disoriented–Whales doing the plankton are getting large doses of the algae.
This is quite outrageous line of doing we see from industry turning its head as to why these dead zones are there when it is quite obvious the source of the problem. With these retardant industries raking in billions of dollars and fertilizer companies raking in even greater amounts of billions, it is doubtful that the killing of our oceans will stop.
Those billions in profits are kept intact with millions in propaganda to protect their continued use. Just to become President costs many millions these days and like the President it costs millions to present the retardant in a good light. And as long as the public remains ignorant of the facts those huge industries will continue to rake in their profits at the expense of human lives, aquatic life and dead and polluted ocean and ground waters.
Another insightful article
Knoxville News Sentinel 12/18
Questions linger on wildfire alerts during Gatlinburg fire by Don Jacobs and Hayes Hickman
Thank you, calvin.
Lots of detail in this new article… including…
1. Confirmation that Gatlinburg Fire Chief Greg Miller had been ‘ramping up’ all day long on Monday, November 28, and requesting all available resources… WITHOUT issuing any ‘evacuation notices’ until the fire was actually arriving in Gatlinburg circa 6:00 PM.
2. Confirmation that the ‘Smoky Mountain National Park’ Fire Officer who was the actual ‘Incident Commander’ for the ‘Chimney Tops 2’ fire from the time it was first discovered ( 5:20 PM on Wednesday, November 23 ) and for the FIVE days leading up to the November 28 ‘blow up’ was, in fact, GSMNP Fire Management Officer Greg Salansky.
Salansky only became the chief ‘Fire Management Officer’ for the GSMNP less than a year ago… on January 25, 2016.
Prior to that… Salansky was a ‘District Fire Officer’ for the ‘Cherokee National Forest’.
In 2009… Salansky was a ‘Fire Management Officer for the Nolichucky/Watauga District.
The Knoxville News Sentinel
Article Title: Questions linger on wildfire alerts during Gatlinburg fire
Published: 5:22 a.m. EST December 19, 2016
By: Don Jacobs and Hayes Hickman
http://www.knoxnews.com/story/news/local/tennessee/2016/12/18/questions-linger-wildfire-alerts/95144318/
From the TOP of the article…
————————————————————————————
Although authorities repeatedly said no public safety officials thought a fire nearly 6 miles deep in the Great Smoky Mountains National Park could threaten outlying areas, the Gatlinburg fire chief requested additional firefighters from outside agencies six hours before the first flames invaded the city.
And Gatlinburg Fire Chief Greg Miller’s 11:52 a.m. Nov. 28 mutual aid request for firefighters from outside agencies was issued six hours before the fire chief ordered the first mandatory evacuation of Mynatt Park and other nearby communities. Miller didn’t order a citywide mandatory evacuation until 8:30 p.m.
It all started with an arson discovered about 5:20 p.m. Nov. 23 by a fire management worker responding to a car fire on Newfound Gap Road, said National Park Deputy Superintendent Clay Jordan. From the road, the park employee saw smoke from a fire covering an area just more than a football field and end zones – about 1.5 acres.
Because of the steep, rocky terrain at the apex of Chimney Tops, National Park Fire Management Officer Greg Salansky decided containment rather than direct attack was the safer method to suppress the slow-burning wildfire. Salansky settled upon a 410-acre containment area using trails, natural barriers and hand-cobbled firebreaks.
————————————————————————————
Greg Salansky’s PUBLIC ‘Facebook’ page is here…
https://www.facebook.com/greg.salansky
And also from the article above… we once again see the same CYA ‘mantra’ emerging about how these people who call themselves Wildland Fire experts couldn’t have been ‘expected’ to believe the fire could have reached Gatlinburg… just because they had “never seen something like that before”.
———————————————————————————
“Gatlinburg is 5.5 miles from Chimney Tops,” GSMNP Deputy Superintendent Clay Jordan said. “It was unconscionable that the fire would be a threat to Gatlinburg.
“Our fire manager ( Greg Slansky ) had never seen fire spot that far. It was unheard of around here.”
———————————————————————————
Typo above.
The GSMNP Fire Management Officer who became the ‘Incident Commander’ for the initial Chimney Tops 2 fire ( on November 23, 2016 ) was named Greg Salansky… and not ‘Greg Slansky’.
If anyone is interested in attending one of the YH Fire Court Cases, here is a link to Marcia McKee vs. State of Arizona (CA-CV-15-0800) covering these consolidated cases: (CV-2015-009068, CV-2014-0069, and CV-2014-0070).
MARCIA MCKEE, the surviving mother of GRANT QUINN MCKEE, both individually and on behalf off all statutory beneficiaries ) of GRANT QUINN MCKEE, deceased,
Plaintiffs/Appellants
versus
STATE OF ARIZONA, a public entity; and the ARIZONA STATE ) FORESTRY DIVISION, a public entity,
Defendants/Appellees.
Court of Appeals
Division One, No. 1
CA-CV 15-0800
Maricopa County
Superior Court
No. CV2014-009068
CV2014-009069
CV2014-009070
(Consolidated)
“NOTICE OF ORAL ARGUMENT
“The above entitled cause has been set for oral argument before the Court of Appeals State of Arizona, Division One, Department D. This cause will be heard in COURTROOM 2, 2nd Floor, 1501 W. Washington, Phoenix, Arizona, on December 21, 2016 at the hour of 10:15 AM.
Arguing Time: Twenty (20) minutes per side.”
THE ORAL ARGUMENT WILL BE VIDEOTAPED AND AUDIO RECORDED..
http://apps.supremecourt.az.gov/aacc/1ca/1cacalendar.htm
Miss McKee is the only one still in the struggle for the truth – and to the chagrin of many, refuses to settle the matter, so please keep her and all the other families, friends, and loved ones of the Granite Mountain Hot Shots in your thoughts and prayers..
She gave me permission to post this.
I had some heart concerns the past few weeks…so Wednesday I will be at i10 and 101…checkin 830am 12.21.16 the day my dad last year passed on…it is not far from the court house and I have to spend hour for test than come back in two hours so it may work out I can see the case and I will definitely will try but Sonny wont be there..Im going with 2 others.
However these cases at times end up on youtube…
Reply to Joy Collura post December 18, 2016 at 2:42 pm
>> Joy A. Collura said…
>>
>> However these cases at times end up on youtube…
According to current ‘policy’… any of the ‘video recordings’ of any ‘oral arguments’ before the Arizona Court of Appeals (ACO) are REQUIRED to ( eventually ) appear on their PUBLIC YouTube channel.
If the upcoming oral arguments in Marcia McKee’s WRONGFUL DEATH lawsuit filed on behalf of her deceased son, Grant McKee, do NOT ( eventually ) appear on this PUBLIC ACO YouTube channel… then ( once again )… something is ‘wrotten’ in the state of Arizonastan.
The ‘Arizona Court of Appeals ( COA ) PUBLIC YouTube ‘channel’ is here…
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCf0h_E3RELnsZxdh6JbfNHA
It’s worth noting that this case is, in fact, a WRONGFUL DEATH case, and not just another of the many, many ( still pending ) ‘Property Damage’ lawsuits.
The mainstream media has ALWAYS been totally WRONG when they reported that all of the Granite Mountain Hotshot ‘wrongful death’ suits have been ‘settled’.
Only 12 of those suits were ‘settled’ ( the ones being handled only by Prescott attorney Patrick McGroder )
Marcia McKee NEVER agreed to ANY kind of settlement… and ( apparently ) has no intentions of ever doing so.
Marcia McKeee still wants to know the truth. ALL of it.
You are absolutely right. She is a most courageous woman and most ADAMANT about NOT settling on anything at all.
And thanks for posting the Twisp River Report link. It wouldn’t post for me.
It will be interesting to see exactly what ‘arguments’ the attorneys for the State of Arizonastan are sticking with in this still-active wrongful death case.
The fact that part of the other ‘settlements’ in the ‘other’ Mcgroder-only cases included this weird dumb-down of the ADOSH investigation original findings of gross negligence has nothing to do with THIS ( separate ) wrongful death case.
Those ADOSH findings are still ‘valid’… and will never ‘go away’ like the attorneys for Arizona Forestry would ‘like’ them to.
The attorneys for the defendants ( Arizona Forestry, et al ) must still be hoping they can get away with the ‘sovereign immunity’ claim… even though Arizona does NOT have that kind of ‘freedom from litigation’ stuff in their state constitution like other states do.
The ‘judges’ need to just get ‘out of the way’ and let this case proceed to trial.
Marcia McKee deserves to have the matter abjudicated in front of a JURY… with the people involved with the death of her best friend and only son having to raise their hands and swear to tell… “The truth… the WHOLE truth… and nothing BUT the truth.”
The appeals case I sat in court and prayed…It was swift…met a blogger and good to meet you…let me add my comma… , I learned that the one judge was one who was recently promoted to higher court
and who knows how long this will take..soon or later…prayers with you Marcia…also this will be online soon the youtube video…and at end the one judge to left said what about friends and others….
Thinking good thoughts for Marcia McKee and her court case tomorrow.
Nothing will actually be ‘decided’ during these ‘oral arguments’ tomorrow… but it’s always interesting to hear what ‘questions’ the judges have for the arrorneys on BOTH sides. Those ‘questions’ usually indicate what the judges have decided the ‘baseline’ issues are.
At this point in the ‘appeal’ process the judges have already been bombarded with motion after motion and endless ‘briefings’ from all the attorneys involved and now it’s time to just cut through the crap and decide what the REAL issues are, and whether this case should be allowed to proceed to trial.
And that is ALL these ‘appeal’ judges are supposed to be concerned with. They are NOT required ( or even SUPPOSED ) to argue the ‘merits of the case’ itself. That’s what a REAL trial is for.. when REAL witnesses can be called and they must swear to tell the TRUTH… or now face actual repercussions for NOT doing so.
The Arizona Department of Occupational Safety and Health ( ADOSH ) has already proven that there was more than enough incompetence and negligence in that ‘workplace’ to justify allowing a ‘wrongful death’ action to go all the way to a JURY… so it will be interesting to see what the lawyers for the defendants have to say tomorrow about why THEY believe it should NOT ( proceed to trial ).
WTKTT,
Thank you for the background information on Marsha McKee’s case. It is helpful to those of us without legal training to have some perspective.
I am amazed how long these matters take to resolve and how much persistance and patience is required.
Just listened to the oral arguments from the courtroom in Phoenix today for grant McKee’s case and trying to make sense of the legal arguments without much luck. I’m looking forward to hearing other opinions on IM.
is it online already Diane?
I was there- I only saw 2 dark headed looking lawyer ladies and blonde and another IM blogger but I did not see you- sorry I missed you—
https://youtu.be/KlYh8lskTRE
found it
Thanks for the heads up email Joy, I was looking early hours (UK Time) but couldn’t find it.
Watching the American Justice System at work was very interesting for an outsider.
I’m sure WTKTT and others will provide the detail, but it wasn’t as clear cut as I thought it would be. When the Legal bod for Arizona was saying (not a direct quote) – That there are no facts around anything being covered up, I found myself screaming at the video “READ THE INVESTIGATIVE MEDIA YARNELL HILL FIRE CHAPTERS YOU *-*-*-*-I-N-G MORON!!!!”.
“This is a very complicated case…. You know, a lotta ins, lotta outs, lotta what-have-you’s. And, uh, lotta strands to keep in my head” – The Dude
I REALLY do hope Mrs McKee gets her day in court and sticks it to them. Arizona are dragging out her suffering so they don’t have to admit any liability for the Granite Mountain deaths what-so-ever.
Reply to Otis post on December 22, 2016 at 3:25 am
>> Otis said…
>>
>> Watching the American Justice System at work
>> was very interesting for an outsider.
Did you catch the ‘dig’ at the end of the ‘oral arguments’ coming from attorney David Abney to Arizona Division 1 Appeals Court Judge Andrew W. Gould ( the judge that was sitting in the center of the 3 judges ‘on the bench’ ).
Abney said… “Congratulations on your elevation, your honor”.
What attorney David Abney was referring to, of course, was the fact that just a few weeks ago, on November 28, 2016 ( the same day as the ‘Chimney Tops 2’ fire blowup and the deaths of 14 in Gatlinburg, Tennessee )… Arizona Governor Doug Ducey ( a Republican ) announced that Appeals Court Judge Andrew W. Gould was one of his picks for 2 new ‘Justices’ for the actual Arizona SUPREME Court.
Republican governor Ducey is the one who just also ‘expanded’ the number of Supreme Court Justices in Arizona to SEVEN instead of FIVE… so that HE could personally ‘pick’ the next 2 ( new ) Justices.
Neat trick, eh?
What do you do when you don’t have enough ‘conservatives’ on a ‘Supreme Court’ to suit your tastes?… Easy Peasy… Just ADD TWO MORE ‘Judges’ to the court so you can then just APPOINT more of ‘your kind of judges’.
Attorney David Abney’s ‘shot across the bow’ to Judge Gould was just a ‘reminder’ to him that no matter who he might now feel ‘beholden’ to ( like governor Ducey for his new Supreme Court job )… it is still his JOB to render an opinion based on the merits of the case… and NOT based on who he might now feel he owes a ‘favor’ to.
So yea… American politics can get ‘interesting’… especially when people get to take office without even getting a majority of the votes.
>> Otis also said…
>>
>> I’m sure WTKTT and others will provide the detail,
>> but it wasn’t as clear cut as I thought it would be.
I ( myself ) will post more about it… but it really is very simple. It all comes down to that same argument from way back when regarding whether ‘worker’s compensation’ benefits are to be considered as something called the ‘exclusive remedy’ in this case ( and in the death of all the other Hotshots as well ).
>> Otis also said…
>>
>> When the Legal bod for Arizona was saying (not a
>> direct quote) – That there are no facts around
>> anything being covered up, I found myself
>> screaming at the video “READ THE INVESTIGATIVE
>> MEDIA YARNELL HILL FIRE CHAPTERS
>> YOU *-*-*-*-I-N-G MORON!!!!”.
Ah… welcome to ‘lawyer speak’.
He did NOT actually say no ‘facts’ actually EXIST which point to a massive ‘coverup’ following the tragedy.
They ( FACTS ) most certainly DO exist… and he KNOWS they do… even without anyone having been able to actually call ‘witnesses’ yet
What he was trying to tell the judges is that they should keep the case ‘dismissed’ just because the plantiffs didn’t include a ‘laundry list’ of the FACTS and even the already-existing evidence in their actual ‘legal briefs’.
Just another ‘lawyer trick’.
More about all this later.
I attended the McKee v. AZ oral arguments and talked briefly to Attorney David Abney after the oral arguments.
He told me there had been a PRIOR oral argument to these same judges, on this matter, earlier in the Summer, and that the judges had ALREADY WRITTEN THEIR OPINION BASED ON THOSE PRIOR ORAL ARGUMENTS.
So, basically the judge’s minds were already made up before hearing these December 21st oral arguments? WTF!?
Abney said, statistically, the judges will change their mind(s) only ten percent (10%} of the time after hearing these second oral arguments.
Abney said that the case would be appealed to the AZ Supreme Court, whomever prevails. And so, the same percentage applies for the AZ Supreme Court to take the case upon appeal.
And I finally got to meet and briefly talk with Joy, so that was a blessing.
Reply to Robert the Second ( RTS ) post on
December 23, 2016 at 5:14 pm
>> RTS said…
>>
>> basically the judge’s minds were already
>> made up before hearing these December
>> 21st oral arguments? WTF!?
That might explain what happened when Appeals Court Judge Andrew Gould ‘jumped’ attorney for Arizona Forestry Michael Parrish the moment he took the podium and before he even really had a chance to say anything at all.
As soon as Parrish ‘introduced’ himself at the podium… Judge Andrew Gould ( the one already appointed to the Arizona SUPREME COURT ) ‘jumped his shit’ and fired a QUESTION at Parrish…
————————————————–
+19:03
Judge Andrew Gould: Hold on one second… cus… I… I have a… I just want to be clear. The way I read your brief is… uh.. you… you AGREE that the ‘intentional infliction of emotional distress’ claim is NOT barred by the worker’s compensation statute. That it’s a SEPARATE claim to the extent that… that the ‘exclusive remedy’ provision might apply… right?
Attorney Michael Parrish: Correct.
Judge Andrew Gould: Okay. Just wanted to be clear. Go ahead.
————————————————–
So what ‘newly appointed’ SUPREME COURT Justice ‘Andrew Gould’ really wanted attorney Michael Parrish to ‘acknowledge’ ( in open court ) was that even if the Justices agree with reasons to ‘dismiss’ as related to the worker’s compensation and the ‘exclusive remedy’ issues… that they could STILL allow the case to proceed because of the SEPARATE issue regarding ‘intentional infliction of emotional distress’.
And even Arizona Forestry Michael Parrish then ‘acknowledged’ that as a distinct possibility.
So the fact that newly appointed Arizona Supreme Court Justice Andrew Gould ‘interrupted’ attorney Michael Parrish just to ‘clarify’ that one point means that Gould himself seems to already KNOW he is going to be ‘hearing’ this case AGAIN ( very soon ) at the SUPREME COURT level.
>> RTS also said…
>>
>> Abney said that the case would be
>> appealed to the AZ Supreme Court,
>> whomever prevails. And so, the same
>> percentage applies for the AZ Supreme
>> Court to take the case upon appeal.
See above ( and other ‘moments’ in these recent ‘oral arguments’ ).
It DOES seem like newly-appointed Arizona Supreme Court Justice Andrew Gould ALREADY knew very well ( during these recent ‘oral arguments’ ) that he will be ‘hearing this case again’ in his new JOB as an Arizona Supreme Court Justice.
In other words… even Gould knows there are ‘issues’ here that CAN/SHOULD go all the way to the Arizona Supreme Court, since they involve Arizona Constitution issues surrounding the lack of ‘sovereign immunity’ in the state of Arizona.
There was also this exchange at the recent ‘oral arguments’…
In the video of the recent ‘oral arguments’… the Arizona Division 1 Appeals Court Judges seen sitting on the bench, from left to right… were…
Peter B. Swann
Andrew W. Gould
Patricia A. Orozco
Shortly after attorney Michael L. Parrish ( representing Arizona Forestry ) started his ‘arguments’… he took a moment to mention Judge Gould’s ‘promotion’ to the Arizona SUPREME COURT… and Parrish immediately got ‘called out’ on that by Judge Patricia Orozco…
————————————————–
+19:51
Attorney Michael L. Parrish: Justice Gould… I think it’s JUSTICE now… I’d like to start with one point…
( Judge Patricia Orozco interrupts Parrish regarding his now pointing out in this open ‘Appeals Court’ hearing that Judge Andrew Gould has ALREADY been appointed to the SUPREME COURT by Republican governor Doug Ducey… and that he can/should be referred to now as ‘Justice Gould’… )
Judge Patricia Orozco: No… let’s not start down that road.
Judge Andrew Gould: Please don’t do that. You’re only gonna get me in trouble.
Judge Patricia Orozco: He’s already wanting us to BOW and so on…
——————————————–
So it seems like everyone there in that courtroom was very much aware that the ‘issues’ being discussed were NOT ‘going away’… and that this case will MOST likely also end up in front of the Arizona Supreme Court ( including the newly appointed Andrew Gould ).
But don’t you think k that Gould would have to recuse
himself die to the conflict of interest because he was part of the AZ State Appeals court opinion in this case?
Reply to Robert the Second ( RTS ) post on
December 24, 2016 at 10:39 am
>> RTS said…
>>
>> But don’t you think k that Gould
>> would have to recuse himself due
>> to the conflict of interest because
>> he was part of the AZ State Appeals
>> court opinion in this case?
No. For THREE reasons…
1. It’s Arizonastan. Normal rules don’t apply.
2. Gould would no more need to ‘recuse’ himself at the ‘next level’ than Judge Peter Swann should have recused himself at ‘this’ level from hearing THIS case at the same time he is part of the ‘team’ deciding the ( obviously ) RELATED ‘Property Damage’ class action suit.
BOTH cases were ‘dismissed’ by the same lower court Judge ( Richard Gama ) for much the same reasons. Gama decided that HE was ‘qualified’ ( and had the ‘authority’ ) to decide issues that relate directly to what is ( or is NOT ) in the ‘Arizona Constitution… and that’s why BOTH of these cases are ‘going up the ladder’.
3. It’s Arizonastan.
Followup…
BOTH of these cases ( the ‘consolidated’ property damage cases AND the ‘consolidated’ wrongful death cases ) have the potential to go all the way the United States Supreme Court, because of some of the basic, fundamental RIGHTS involved.
The 6th ammendment to the United States Constitution ( i’e. The Bill Of Rights ) covers what ALL citizens of the country are entitled to in CRIMINAL cases… and the 7th ammendment ( also i.e. The Bill Of Rights ) covers CIVIL cases ( like the Yarnell related cases ).
If a particular STATE in the Union ( especially ones that don’t have their own codified ‘sovereign immunity’ laws in their own State Constitutions, like Arizona ) starts ‘denying’ its citizens their RIGHT to have their ‘day in court’ ( and their RIGHTS to a ‘Juried’ trial as also covered in the 6th and 7th amendments ), even in the face of strong evidence that justifies the ‘allegations’…
…then the United States Supreme Court can/SHOULD have something to say about it.
WTKTT,
Thanks for you reply and insight on the recuse issue.
Merry Christmas and Happy New Year
Reply to Robert the Second ( RTS ) post
on December 25, 2016 at 9:07 am
>> RTS said…
>>
>> WTKTT,
>> Thanks for you reply and insight
>> on the recuse issue.
Out of room down here.
See a longer ‘Reply’ up above…
http://www.investigativemedia.com/please-begin-yarnell-hill-fire-chapter-xxiv-here/#comment-459770
“This is a very complicated case, Maude. A lot of ins, a lot of outs. Fortunately, I’m adhering to a pretty strict drug regimen to keep my mind limber.”
The Dude
WTKTT and Robert the Second,
Thank you for translating what happened in court with Marsha McKee’s case.
The aspect of inflicting intentional harm to Mrs. McKee is confusing. I didn’t read where she was denied death benefits for her son or how she was discriminated against once she filed a lawsuit but perhaps that is handled separately.
One phrase comes to mind–“justice delayed is justice denied”
I am in Indianapolis with daughter and grandkids but watched the video–surprised to see it available so soon
**
** TWISP RIVER FIRE FINAL ‘CRaP’ REPORTS HAVE NOW BEEN PUBLISHED
Thanks to Robert the Second ( RTS ) the ‘heads up’ on this.
The ‘Final Reports’ on the ‘Twisp River Fire Fatalities’ fire are now all HERE at the ‘Wildland Fire Lessons Site’ page dedicated to the ‘Twisp River Fire’… including their ( updated ) ‘final’ detailed ‘narrative’ of what THEY say actually took place that day…
http://www.wildfirelessons.net/orphans/viewincident?DocumentKey=c221a055-a972-478c-be5c-9a16c2d5929c
The ‘final’ reports contain much more detail than the ‘preliminary’ CRaP protocol reports… but there are ( as was expected ) still many critical details MISSING.
More about that in another ( upcoming ) post.
Typo above… meant to say…
Thanks to Robert the Second ( RTS ) FOR the ‘heads up’ on this.
Living on the edge– Joy and I had a visit to the McCrackins yesterday. They were away at the time on vacation only to return to fine their home completly gone. Larry and Patty live right on the edge of the north line of Glen Isla. Their proximity to the extreme dumps of retardant is just yards. Deer Track road is their street and what I am talking about here.
One third of the people on that street are now dead since the fire. Joy visited the next door neighbor, Bryan Smith was the fellow who said the photo presented as to who had rescued his cousin was not Gary Cordes –Cordes got a commendation for the act at any rate–maybe he was the one who sent the guy that did rescue the cousin. But this is not what I want to address–Bryon is not in good health–he has gone down hill in his health since the fire to the point Joy says he and his wife both look ill–to put it like Joy sees it–he does not look to be able to last much longer. Patty and Bruce do not appear to be in their best health since the fire–we see the difference since we knew them before the fire–both very vibrant individuals before concerning health. Bruce across the street appears to have deteriorated health as well. Yet when we visited his neighbor, Howard that we visited in Surprise looks to be well–his wife however ill from the loss. Howard though never returned to rebuild and his place is still just a cement foundation after being burned away.
Statistics like this do not seem to hit the news–but when we see the deaths and obvious deterioration in health from individuals living in such close proximity to jumbo jet loads of retardant dropped in their back yards then it is time to take notice.
Of course your big business and extreme profits made from these jumbo jet loads are going to continue to lobby and keep Forest Officials and Federal Men happy and
the public dumb to the real dangers of this agent orange retardant. Most of us know that the orange in that soup is iron oxide powder mixed in for the coloring. Iron oxide powder itself is not a nice thing to breath and I am not sure whether its effects are anywhere as detrimental as the other hidden chemicals and the major one not hidden–the 85-95% ammonium compounds that are guaranteed lung killers. Lung cells do not reginerate–but the young can handle the loss of even a full lung and still survive–though in a diminished capacity. It is the older folk that the chemical soup is most damaging to health.
And despite all this that is easily seen first hand–documented deaths and illness abundant after the retardant drops we will have plenty say this shit is inert and not detrimental to health. Even some of the retired fire fighters, though admitting to having been doused with the crap will continue to blame their illnesses to other causes. I would like to invite them to visit Bryon and wife and see how they were before the fire and see them now after the fire. See they used to come to town meetings so we did know them immediately after the fire and how their health has gone down since.
As I see these things and more recent deaths I will continue to harp about this deadly retardant. We had a second dose of jumbo jet loads since the Tenderfoot Fire since June 8 of this year–so the health experiment goes on. We are now classic guinea pigs to a town doped with jumbo jet loads in the hundreds of thousands of gallons on all sides of Yarnell-Glen Isla.
In the Yarnell fire the retardant did little to help if any in retarding the wind blown fire–and in wind storms it is about as effective as the Pulaski laded 19 would have been in protecting structures during the Yarnell Fire.
I will continue to harp as long as I continue to hear health and death reports –stopping this crap from being dropped next homes may be the greatest life saver of all–remember we lost 19 fire fighters but out of origional 650 tally of residents, more than 100 are now dead since the fire–and the count continues to mount–not only in deaths but in respiratory and related illnesses. Your reporter here has had his seventh heart attack–and now lives with limited lung capacity–all since the fire. Tell me breathing that crap does not affect your health–I will tell you look at Yarnell’s death count since the fire and visit the ill here from its effects, many now on their death beds.
I should add Joy is now having to see a cardiologist at her young age of 44–she is getting the aftermath of breathing these chemicals–She and I did much hiking through it–it took some time for me to realize that more than a sixth of the population does not die in the short time after the fire unless there is a reason behind it. We know the reason behind the 19 deaths–but much as the 100+ aftermath deaths due to retardant dumps–the real reasons are hidden. Because it is mostly elderly that are dying–the excuse that it is their age killing them does not ride in this case. Statistics bear that out–as do the exceptional amount of illness abounding here–all related to respiratory function.
If I read both of the main reports correctly, Engine 642 did NOT have a supervisor with them during much of their operations on Woods Canyon Rd., including at the time of the fatalities.
I didn’t see this mentioned anywhere as a concern, and perhaps it should be.
TTWARE,
I am glad you picked up on the lack of a supervisor at the time of the fatalities NOT being mentioned in either of the Reports. Good catch. It certainly is and was a concern.
I have so far only made the time to read the fire weather and fire behavior reports and view the Powerpoint presentation, so I have yet to read the sections dealing with decisions, human failures, and such.
It’s highly likely that ‘they’ (CRaP Reviewers) did not mention anything about that is because the regular Engine Boss was a highly qualified and experienced WFF with Hot Shot Crew experience was NOT there because he had CALLED IN SICK THAT DAY. He was replaced by an alternate who was likely ‘qualified’ for the position, however, with much less experience.
Did any of the reports mention that the alternate Engine Boss was outside of the Engine directing helicopter buckets when the fire aggressively ‘stood up’ and took off, prompting them to leave the area?
Regarding the required WFF Rules and LCES, those on the LEFT FLANK complied with them and did just fine, without any adverse incidents. However, those on the right flank did NOT comply with the WFF Rules and LCES and that is the flank where all the burn injuries, burnovers, shelter deployments, and worse occurred.
The report did briefly mention that the regular Captain for 642 was off on sick leave BUT, they simply left it at that, saying no more. That little tidbit was how I was able to put 2 and 2 together while reading the rest of the report, and found that there was no supervision with the rig.
There were 2 ‘points of contact’ designated for the right flank. One for ‘air drops’, and one for the other stuff. Both of them were Asst. Engine Captains. The Asst. from 642 (that vehicles primary supervisor), according to the report, was not involved with the air drops BUT, he was away from the engine a good bit of the time assessing dozer lines, etc., including the time-frames when a new engine crew was cobbled together without a supervisor, and also when the engine had to bail when the fire blew-up.
As if that wasn’t enough, 642 also initially had an Engine Boss Trainee on-board. He was pulled-off the engine and assigned to scout dozer line at about the same time that the Asst. Captain left for the ‘point of contact’ duties. Neither ever re-joined the engine. While, not authorized to act as a trainee on his own without someone supervising him, it seems that destiny was bound and determined to strip that engine of all vestiges of any kind of a supervisory influence, resulting in the tragedy that occurred..
TTWARE,
I believe you have hit on one of the significant Human Failures that the CraP Review Team clearly failed to address.
There was in fact, IQCS Red Card QUALIFIED “supervision with the rig,” however, vastly inexperienced and certainly distracted what with the multi-tasking he was attempting in a dynamically escalating fire situation.
That Forest had a habit of placing employees in various supervisory positions just to get the Resource ‘qualified’ to get them out the door to fill the immediate need or Resource Order.
The 2001 30-Mile Fire, basically in the same area, was a classic example.
This is an interesting research paper by Meteorologist and Researcher Cliff Mass titled: Was the fatal Wildfire near Twisp,Washington Predicable?
He indicates that it was very predictable.
http://cliffmass.blogspot.com/2015/08/was-wildfire-evolution-that-killed.html
You’ll notice one comment from “Elizabeth” and I will bet you that is none other than the very same one that posted here on IM.
RTS said:
“There was in fact, IQCS Red Card QUALIFIED “supervision with the rig,” however, vastly inexperienced and certainly distracted what with the multi-tasking he was attempting in a dynamically escalating fire situation”.
Perhaps I missed something as I sometimes do, but who was the “QUALIFIED” supervisor “with” the rig?
The Engine Boss was sick, the assistant EB was away from the engine most of the time while it was on Woods Canyon Rd., and the EB trainee was off scouting dozer line while the remainder of the crew was doing the various things they were doing.
Unless there was another ‘qualified’ person not mentioned in the report, I think your statement is incorrect when you use the term “with the rig”.
If you mean “assigned to the rig”, then that’s a whole different ballgame than “with the rig”. That’s kind of like saying the Division Zulu position was staffed all afternoon at Yarnell.
Again, perhaps I missed something, either in the report, or in the intent of your statement.
RTS posted
“Also on Tuesday, Deputy Superintendent of Great Smoky Mountains National Park Clay Jordan said officials believe there was NO WAY TO CONTROL THE FIRE IN THE PARK BEFORE extreme winds brought it into the Gatlinburg area Nov. 28.” (EMPHASIS ADDED)
“NO WAY TO CONTROL the fire in the park BEFORE extreme winds brought it into the Gatlinburg area Nov. 28.
No way to control the fire in the park BEFORE extreme winds brought it into the Gatlinburg area Nov. 28? Really? There seemed to be plenty of time and ample opportunities to do so.
RTS what tactics or strategy would have been appropriate prior to the blow up on 11/28? Do you think that it being Thanksgiving and the subsequent holiday weekend played a part in the decision to only monitor the fire and not engage it?
Thanks
Reply to calvin post on December 16, 2016 at 6:16 am
>> calvin said…
>>
>> Do you think that it being Thanksgiving and the subsequent holiday weekend
>> played a part in the decision to only monitor the fire and not engage it?
Well… if you read the TIMELINE article you found that you said you ‘could not link to’ at…
http://wate.com/2016/12/13/timeline-gatlinburg-wildfires/
…that article seems to say they WERE at least ‘doing something’ on Thanksgiving Day.
That article is obviously just sort of a ‘press release’ coming out of the ‘National Park Service’ and probably needs to be taken with many grains of salt ( since there isn’t enough information in it to VERIFY what they are saying they were doing )… but it DOES have ‘entries’ for all the ‘days’ of the fire and short blurbs ( from NPS ) about what they were ( or were NOT ) doing each day.
However… this article itself suggests the fire started on TUESDAY afternoon, November 22, 2016… and not on Wednesday afternoon, November 23, 2016… as originally thought.
The article is ‘messed up’ and has TWO entries for ‘Wednesday, November 23, 2016’.
The FIRST ‘Timeline entry’ for ‘Wednesday, November 23, 2016″ starts with…
————————————————————————–
Wednesday, November 23
At 5:30 p.m. park firefighters observed a smoke column at the top of the Chimney Tops, which is located about 5.5 miles from the city of Gatlinburg. Jordan said the fire was about 1.5 acres in size, located in the North Spire.
————————————————————————–
But the SECOND ‘Timeline’ entry for ‘Wednesday, November 23, 2016’ ( right underneath the first one ) starts with…
————————————————————————–
Wednesday, November 23
The next morning, Jordan said the incident commander RETURNED to the fire with a squad of firefighters. He said at that point the fire was creeping and smoldering in the thick vegetation at the top of the rocky summit.
————————————————————————–
So which is it?
Are they trying to say the fire actually STARTED ( or was first noticed ) circa 5:30 PM on TUESDAY, November 22, 2016… and that first ‘Wednesday, November 23’ entry in the article is just a massive TYPO and really should have been ‘Tuesday, November 23’?
How are we supposed to interpret them saying the ‘Incident Commander’ RETURNED to the fire the NEXT MORNING ( Wednesday, November 23, 2016 ), when it was supposedly already established that the fire didn’t even START until 5:30 PM on Wednesday, November 23, 2016?
Is this ‘new information’ being presented in this article ( about what DAY the fire started )… or just a massive ‘fuck up’ on the part of the people writing this ‘Timeline’ article?
Either way… there ARE ‘entries’ in this ‘Timeline’ for ‘Thanksgiving Day ( Thursday, November 24, 2016 )… and even if the day entries are ‘screwed up’ and ‘offset’ by 1 day… they ( NPS ) are still asserting that they WERE ‘doing things’ on ‘Thanksgiving Day’ itself.
But ‘those things’ only amounted to looking at maps and deciding what the ‘containment lines’ should look like for this puppy.
Also… another reason to take this ‘Timeline’ being published by WATE News with ‘many grains of salt’ is the fact that their MAPS are also screwed up.
They are trying to present ‘maps’ that show the spread of the fire on the various days from Wednesday, November 23, 2016 through Monday, November 28, 2016… but the ‘maps’ for some of the ‘days’ don’t match the available photos and videos at all.
I actually do believe them when they say that the rapid advance of the fire all day Monday was due to extraordinary ‘spotting’ events… but as for the actual ‘boundaries’ of the fire on days like Sunday, November 27… their ‘maps’ aren’t matching actual photographic evidence.
There is also no mention whatsoever of what has been reported by others regarding the ‘mobile alert’ screw up. That the reason TEMA didn’t send what they received was because it was more than 90 characters and the WEA ( Wireless Emergency Alert ) system could only send 90 characters of less.
And there is also this ‘questionable’ bit of CYA coming from NPS.
Notice that GSMNP Superintendent ‘Cassius Cash’ is now ‘out of the picture’ on this one and the CYA is now all coming from GSMNP DEPUTY Superintendent
Regarding WHY they did not perform an ‘Initial Attack’ on the fire… GSMNP DEPUTY Superintendent Clay Jordan is now ‘offering’ this ‘explanation’…
—————————————————————————
“Given the inaccessible terrain, comprised of cliffs and thick vegetation, the crew decided that it was not safe, nor effective to dig a fire line around it, close to the fire, which is generally done by removing that vegetation down to bare soil as a method to stop the fire,” said Jordan. “They also knew that using helicopters to drop water on the fire would be ineffective. Bucket drops are used to slow an intensely burning fire, but they do not put out even a small wildland fire that is burning in deep duff.”
—————————————————————————
“Bucket drops are used to slow an intensely burning fire, but they do not put out even a small wildland fire that is burning in deep duff.”
Really?
Whether that is just a load of CYA bullshit or not… given that they didn’t have many other options… wasn’t it at least worth a try at SOME point before the FIFTH day of the damn fire?
What would FIVE DAYS of ‘bucket drops’ have done on that 1 to 3 acre fire?
Nothing at all?
What was totally LACKING here ( just like in Yarnell on both Friday and Saturday, June 28 and 29, 2013 ) was any real sense of ‘urgency’.
Typo up above. I typed ‘Tuesday, November 23’ when I should have typed ‘Tuesday, November 22’.
Section above ( referencing the TIMELINE article ) should have read like this…
———————————————————————–
So which is it?
Are they trying to say the fire actually STARTED ( or was first noticed ) circa 5:30 PM on TUESDAY, November 22, 2016… and that first ‘Wednesday, November 23’ entry in the article is just a massive TYPO and really should have been ‘Tuesday, November 22?
————————————————————————
Calvin and WTKTT,
From the link WTKTT posted: “As darkness approached, a firefighting team hiked up the mountain to size-up the fire. They discovered the fire burning among a rock scramble at the top,” said Jordan. ….. With the rocky terrain and darkness, he said firefighters returned because there was NOTHING FURTHER THEY COULD DO THAT EVENING.” (EMPHASIS ADDED)
Rock scrambling is described as a method of ascending rocky faces and ridges. It’s not rock climbing, but it’s not walking either. Rock scrambles are typically associated with trails that offer ‘non-technical’ summits as a destination.
NOTHING further they could do? Really? How about taking advantage of the plenteous natural barrier (LARGE ROCKS) to tie in to. So, I think a 1-1/2 acre fire at the top of a knob is certainly one that could have and should have been suppressed.
The Thanksgiving holiday was not an influence because NIFC in Boise, ID was heavily mobilizing a ton of Resources, including Hot Shot Crews from California (the only ones available) and amassing all the Type 2 IA Crews they could muster to the Southern Region. They also mobilized ALL the available Type 6 Engines from the Nation’s Federal and State agencies, Contractors, and finally Municipal Fire Departments.
This statement is a gem, especially coming from an alleged 25 year veteran of Northeast Region wildland fires: “They also knew that using helicopters to drop water on the fire would be INEFFECTIVE. Bucket drops are used to slow an INTENSELY BURNING FIRE, BUT THEY DO NOT EVEN PUT OUT EVEN A SMALL WILDLAND FIRE THAT IS BURNING IN DEEP DUFF. (EMPHASIS ADDED)
Really? Effective on intensely burning fires but ineffective on small fires. That completely defies logic. I’d like to give him the benefit of the doubt and maybe the Public DISinformation Officer misquoted him.
Below is the link for the 12 UTC (0600 EST) Chimney Tops Fire MesoWest ROMAN RAWS observations and links for November 22, 2016, the day BEFORE the Chimney Tops Fire started.
The reason I show the November 22 readings is to reveal the COLD, mostly freezing and/or below freezing temperatures.
COLD does NOT put fires out, moisture does. In the Northeast and Southeast Regions, the COLDER the temperatures, the DRIER the FUEL MOISTURE and the DRIER the FUELS. The COLD TEMPERATURES basically FREEZE DRY the moisture right out of the soils and the fuels, making them more available for consumption and much more VOLATILE!
http://mesowest.utah.edu/cgi-bin/droman/trend_fire.cgi?hour1=12&month1=11&day1=22&year1=2016&type=1&fireid=16502&orderby=p&rawsflag=2&radius=50&noho=2
Now note the 21 UTC (1700 EST) observations, much DRIER and INCREASED AND GUSTY WINDS.
http://mesowest.utah.edu/cgi-bin/droman/trend_fire.cgi?hour1=21&month1=11&day1=23&year1=2016&type=1&fireid=16502&orderby=p&rawsflag=2&radius=50&noho=2
Quoting again from the link posted: “The park’s fire management team applied an INDIRECT ATTACK STRATEGY identifying a 410-ACRE CONTAINMENT AREA area where the terrain allowed the fire to be fought safely and effectively, according to Jordan. He said that is a STANDARD FIREFIGHTER SUPPRESSION STRATEGY IN MOUNTAINOUS TERRAIN.
Yes, it is when the fire behavior is too intense and/or the terrain is too rugged and dangerous. This was NOT the case here, based on the photograph shown and the fire weather and fire behavior at the time. AGGRESSIVE initial attack could have and should have been the preferred option.
“…. they all agreed that the fire attack plan was the ONLY practical option for controlling the fire AS QUICKLY AS POSSIBLE. (EMPHASIS ADDED) Once again, their choice and reasoning defies logic.
The ONLY practical option, are you f**king kidding me? How can a 410-acre containment area and all that is required to accomplish that (line construction, firing and holding operations, mopping up, etc.) be a better and safer choice than aggressively suppressing a 1-1/2 acre fire?
This is based on the photo revealed in the November 23rd, 1.5 acre photo (“November 23 – Column of smoke rising from Chimney Tops fire”).
The entire News Conference and the video clips are fallaciously based on the time period once it ESCAPED containment and was aggressively spotting and growing exponentially.
The large “containment boundary” box depicted in the Timeline article was a viable option EXCEPT for the extremely strong and erratic cold font winds they endured.
RTS,
I 100% agree with your assessment. 100%. Deep duff on the ridge top? Nope, try again Those are xeric soils.
You are absolutely spot freakin’ on. I’m thinking we have way more in common than differences. Way more, Cheers!
Woodduck
This is a link for the Plymouth State Weather archive Meteogram data for November 23, 2016 from the Chattanooga/Love, TN RAWS site.
https://vortex.plymouth.edu/cgi-bin/sfc/gen-statlog-a.cgi?ident=kcha&pl=graph&yy=16&mm=11&dd=23&pg=web
Click on the “How to interpret meteograms” link opening up a whole new world of weather observation knowledge
The times are across the bottom, Note the wind speeds and gusts from 1700 to 2100.
The next link is also from the archived Plymouth State Weather Surface Dew Point Depressions indicating HIGH dew point depressions (high teens and twenties), an indicator of high to extreme potential for large fire growth.
https://vortex.plymouth.edu/cgi-bin/sfc/gen-pltmap-a.cgi?re=se&va=dewdc&yy=16&mm=11&dd=23&hh=18&density=&sc=1.0&ge=640×480&pg=web&id=&zoom=.6
Note the high dew point depression values in TN, southern KY, SC, NC, and southern VA. Values of 12 degrees C at 700 mb (10,000 feet) are significant indicators of large fire growth.
These indicate the POTENTIAL for large fire growth warranting aggressive initial attack.
Here’s the archive November 27, 2016 Plymouth State Weather indicating VERY COLD TEMPERATURES setting up for increased fire behavior and large fire growth, freeze drying the moisture from the soil and the fuels..
https://vortex.plymouth.edu/cgi-bin/sfc/gen-statlog-a.cgi?ident=kcha&pl=graph&yy=16&mm=11&dd=27&pg=web
Here’s the archive November 28, 2016 Plymouth State Weather indicating VERY WARM DAYTIME TEMPERATURES setting up for increased fire behavior and large fire growth as a result of the previous night’s freeze drying the moisture from the soil and the fuels..
https://vortex.plymouth.edu/cgi-bin/sfc/gen-statlog-a.cgi?ident=kcha&pl=graph&yy=16&mm=11&dd=28&pg=web
Note the very strong, gusty winds from 1600 to 2300 hours setting up for aggressive to extreme fire behavior and large fire growth.
Woodduck,
So much for the NPS dude’s 20 plus years of Northeast Region fire experience, ey.
Thanks for the renewed vote of confidence. I have ALWAYS felt we had “way more in common than differences. Way more.” I never gave up on you. Disagreed at times, yes.
RTS,
Thank you. I have thrown some shots at you that were below the belt out of frustration & I regret that. I’m sure you understand. Let me also say that once I graduated from lowest form of life Pulaski driver on a hand crew and started moving up in the world, I’ve come to realize the world is not what it seems. Unqualified personnel with pencil-whipped quals (because it’s not what you know it’s who you know), stupid tactics, everyone gets a red-card munipical entanglement, let fires burn & ‘monitor’ them………etc, etc….
It makes me crazy because I care about the people that pay our salary getting what they pay for (TRUST), the people I work with in-state & across the country, and I care about our nation’s forest resources. Yet firefighters and civilians are DEAD because of incompetency & mis-guided management. Families are without loved ones this Christmas because of a failing system and too few WFF with a functioning brain that actually maintain the ability to think for themselves & stand up to management.
Few folks are going to read the fire management plan I posted for GSMNP (186 pages?) but if they did they would completely understand why the Chimney Tops fire did what it did. They would also come to understand what it is like to be in the boots of a wff standing on the border tasked with protecting private property outside the park.
Fire is a chemical chain reaction known as oxidation & follows laws of physics. If you let one go because you want ‘reintroduce fire in the ecosystem to the fullest extent possible’ & you are in a drought….& it’s fall fire season in the Southeast……..& you fail to react to the weather forecast………well then – YOU GET WHAT YOU GET.
Merry Christmas, RTS. Thanks.
Woodsman
t
Woodduck,
Thanks for the post My Friend. I completely understand your strong frustrations and reactions. It’s okay, because unfortunately, it goes with the territory. And the fact that we are bureaucrats by definition because of what we do, however, we do NOT fit into the ‘Typical Bureaucrat’ mold. It is a necessary task for us to swim UPSTREAM against the flow of incompetency, indecision, and all other pathologies of power, if we truly want to make a difference.
Keep up the good fight. It never ends.
As I have said previously, almost all of my best up-and-coming supervisors were the agitators, mischief-makers, trouble-makers, and wise-asses, BECAUSE they were not afraid to speak truth to power and/or rock the boat. In other words, the were NOT going to ‘go along to get along’ and so, they did NOT take the Trip to Abilene.
Where did you post the fire management plan for the GSMNP?
Merry Christmas and Happy New Year.
I have found what I believe to be the only picture available of the Chimney Tops 2 fire on the day it was spotted, 11/23/
I cannot link so I will have to ask WTK for assistance.
The photo appears in an online article published December 13 at 229pm. It appears on WATE.com. It is titled Timeline: Gatlinburg wildfire National Park Service explains how Chimney Tops2 fire spread to Gatlinburg.
Thanks in advance WTK. This photo is important.
Calvin,
Got the link for those interested:
http://wate.com/2016/12/13/timeline-gatlinburg-wildfires/
Also downloaded the first photo.
This is the most in depth article I’ve seen. I haven’t read it carefully yet, but the maps are clear and compelling. Yarnell was measured in yards, this one in miles. I’d be curious to read an analysis by one of our board WLFFs.
Reply to Muzzy post on December 16, 2016 at 10:52 am
>> Muzzy said…
>>
>> This is the most in depth article I’ve seen.
Take it all with ‘grains of salt’. It’s basically just a ‘press release’ coming from GSMNP DEPUTY Superintendent Clay Jordan. Looks like they ( NPS ) have already kicked actual GSMNP Superintendent Cassius Clay to the back of the ‘spokesman’ bus on this one. Maybe that was a direct result of him pissing off Sevier County Mayor Larry Waters at that initial ‘press conference’.
That being said… at least this article is TRYING to provide SOME detail about what did ( or did NOT ) happen for the FIVE DAYS prior to this tragedy.
>> Muzzy also said…
>>
>> I haven’t read it carefully yet, but the maps are clear and compelling.
And some of them are also just plain WRONG.
SOME of those maps showing the ‘fire perimeters’ don’t match available photo and video evidence at all. Especially the ‘map’ they have for ‘Sunday, November 27, 2016’, the day before the ‘blow up’.
>> Muzzy also said…
>>
>> Yarnell was measured in yards, this one in miles.
‘Yards’ and/or ‘miles’… the similarities to the 2013 Yarnell Hill Fire are there.
Based on conditions, fuel loads, weather and a ( supposed ) ‘professional’ knowledge of fire behavior ( not just in YOUR region )… you are SUPPOSED to KNOW what COULD HAPPEN… and make decisions accordingly.
Just as was the case after Yarnell… we have people here who were SUPPOSEDLY ‘professional’ Wildland Firefighters basically doing the CYA dance and saying…
“I’d never seen that before so I didn’t know it could happen”.
Excuse me… HUGE TYPO up above.
Meant to say…
GSMNP Superintendent Cassius Cash ( not Clay ).
Rest in Peace, Muhammad Ali.
Reply to Robert the Second ( RTS ) post on December 14, 2016 at 1:41 pm
>> RTS said…
>>
>> ( From the recent ‘Fire Engineering’ article… )
http://www.fireengineering.com/ap-news/2016/12/13/the-latest-cell-towers-down-no-fire-evacuation-text-alert.html?cmpid=enl_FE_FireEngineeringDaily_2016-12-14&[email protected]&eid=328758895&bid=1614792
>> “Also on Tuesday, Deputy Superintendent of Great Smoky Mountains National
>> Park Clay Jordan said officials believe there was NO WAY TO CONTROL THE
>> FIRE IN THE PARK BEFORE extreme winds brought it into the Gatlinburg
>> area Nov. 28.” (EMPHASIS ADDED)
>>
>> “NO WAY TO CONTROL the fire in the park BEFORE extreme winds brought it into
>> the Gatlinburg area Nov. 28.
>>
>> No way to control the fire in the park BEFORE extreme winds brought it into the
>> Gatlinburg area Nov. 28? Really? There seemed to be plenty of time and ample
>> opportunities to do so.
Yes, there were.
FIVE DAYS with little to no wind… and just a ‘creeping’ fire.
>> RTS also said…
>>
>> “Jordan also said there was NO NUMBER OF FIREFIGHTERS OR FIRE TRUCKS
>> that could have stopped the spread of the fires IN THOSE WIND CONDITIONS,
>> which reached gusts about 87 miles per hour.” (EMPHASIS ADDED)
>>
>> This would likely be an accurate statement based on several factors: the ongoing
>> and historical drought; the significant wind speeds; significant fuel loadings; the
>> sheer number of structures with little or no Firewise mitigation; and the massive,
>> ubiquitous ember showers.
Agreed.
Just like the 2013 Yarnell Hill Fire… there was a ‘window of opportunity’ to put the fire out ( and make SURE it was out )… and the ‘only cure was prevention’ for what COULD happen if the fire ‘escaped’, given the conditions and the fuel loads.
And just like the 2013 Yarnell Hill Fire… that ‘window of opportunity’ was MISSED, an entire town almost got wiped off the map, and people DIED.
** VIDEO OF THE FIRE THE DAY BEFORE BLOWUP ( SUNDAY, NOVEMBER 27, 2016 )
A fellow named ‘Masson Corlette’ uploaded a video to YouTube the day AFTER the ‘blowup’. He shot the video out on the ‘Chimney Tops’ trail on Sunday, November 27, 2016 ( the day BEFORE the ‘blowup’ on Monday, November 28, 2016 ).
The video clearly shows the ‘Chimney Tops 2’ fire burning as of Sunday afternoon, and a little less then 24 hours before people in the Gatlinburg area would DIE.
That Sunday afternoon… the ‘fire’ was still confined to the TOP of the ‘Chimney Tops’ feature.
One of the most ‘astounding’ things about this video is that not only does it clearly show what the ‘Chimney Tops 2’ fire looked like on Sunday afternoon ( from down in the trailhead parking lot )… apparently Masson and his friends then DECIDED to hike UP to the TOP of the ‘Chimney Tops’ and shoot more video from there…
…and there were somehow being ALLOWED to do that ( hike to the ‘Chimney Tops’ even as the fire was burning on Sunday ).
And on this ‘hike’ to the TOP of the ‘Chimney Tops’ that Sunday afternoon… there seemed to be NO ONE AROUND. Zero. Zip. Nada.
Not even any ‘rangers’ to even STOP these young men from ‘hiking’ all the way UP to the ‘Chimney Tops’ and INTO the ‘burning area’.
Smokey Mountain National Park Superintendent ‘Cassius Cash’ has said repeatedly ( at press conferences and in public statements ) that he had “FOUR Helicopters” working the fire that Sunday… but there is NO EVIDENCE of that in this ‘video’ that was shot that same Sunday afternoon by Masson Corlette.
Not while they were down in the ‘Chimney Tops Trailehead’ parking lot ( which was also still open to tourists ) ‘filming’… nor at any time while they ‘hiked’ up to the fire.
So WHEN those ‘FOUR Helicopters’ that Cassius Cash keeps mentioning MIGHT have been ‘working the fire’ is still a ‘mystery’.
I’m even beginning to wonder whether the ROTOR WASH from those FOUR Helicopters did more to FAN the fire DOWN that northern slope of the ‘Chimney Tops’ ( and start the rapid spread of the fire )… just like it remains possible that the ROTOR WASH from Helicopter N14HX is what actually caused the 2013 Yarnell Hill Fire to ‘escape’ from THAT ‘ridgetop’ and burn DOWN into the massive fuel bed near Yarnell.
The following video also contains footage of Masson watching the ‘news’ on Monday evening as Gatlinburg was burning, and realizing that the video he shot the day before was of the same fire that had now ‘escaped’ the National Park.
YouTube Video Title: Forest Fire Pray For Gatlinburg
Published: Nov 29, 2016 ( the day after the ‘blowup’ the evening of Monday, November 28, 2016 )
YouTube Username: “Life of Masson” ( Masson Corlette )
YouTube Video Description:
Gatlinburg Forest Fire. We were some of the last people to hike the trails before this historic event! Here is my video tribute to Gatlinburg. Its in big danger. We were probably some of the last people to hike the trails before this forest fire.
Direct link to the VIDEO itself…
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uJFxrRpa350
What’s actually shown in this 4 minute and 32 second video…
————————————————————————————
+0:00: A ‘montage’ of pre-fire scenes in/around Gatlinburg.
+0:30: Masson’s friend jumping off a bridge into a creek.
+0:37: They are at a ‘sign’ at the start of the ‘Chimney Tops’ trail. The sign says…
CHIMNEY TOPS TRAIL
Road Prong Trail: 0.9
Chimney Tops: 2.0
+0:45: He films another sign on the ‘Chimney Tops’ trail that says…
BE ADVISED: To see the view at the summit, you must climb these rocks.
Very slippery when wet. Climb at your own risk.
( The sign also has a photo of the actual ‘Chimney Tops’ summit ).
+0:49: Video title overlay says “VLOG 9 NOVEMBER 28”
Masson talks to the camera and says he has only now discovered that Gatlinburg is currently being evacuated ( on Monday evening )… and has only now realized that the ‘wildfire’ he filmed the day before ( Sunday, November 27, 2016 ) out at ‘Chimney Tops’ is now the fire that has moved into Gatlinburg.
He also says ( to the camera ) that they saw “the very start of the wildfire”, but this is not correct. Masson was ( apparently ) unaware that this ‘Chimney Tops 2’ fire stared FOUR DAYS earlier than his Sunday video, at around 5:20 PM on Wednesday, November 23, 2016.
+1:22: The beginning of his ‘video clips’ from the previous day, Sunday, November 27, 2016, when they were there at the ‘Chimney Tops’ trail.
His friend is ‘filming’ as Masson hops on the retaining wall of the parking lot for the ‘Chimney Tops’ trail and then points right up to the ‘Chimney Tops 2’ fire seen in the background.
Masson says: “There’s no flames, though. We saw flames earlier.”
Then his friend ( who is filming ) says: “I think they’re on the other side”.
Video then zooms in on the ‘fire’ and now they all say “I see some flames”.
Someone says: “Let’s go up there”.
Then someone else says: “All right. We’re gonna hike up Chimney Tops in the smoke”.
And then they DID.
Upcoming video clips show them at the TOP of the ‘Chimney Tops’ a short while later.
+1:50: A split-screen with a still photo from Masson’s Sunday video at the top and a photo of the entire Gatlinburg area on fire Monday night.
+1:53: Video returns to Masson in a room Monday night reporting about the fire burning into Gatlinburg.
Masson says ( to his friend )…
“How did it?…. Why didn’t they JUMP on that ( fire )?”
His friend says… “I was like lookin’ at stuff last night ( Sunday night ) and
it was like… Yea… it’s pretty much contained… we’re pretty much done.”
Masson responds: “Oh my God”.
His friend then says… “They we’re sayin’ it was like a hundred percent contained, basically”.
Mason turns to the camera again and says…
“The mountain that me and Cameron literally climbed, where he… I’ll throw in the clips… he jumped off a bridge into the lake… and then I went and climbed the summit to the very top…
+3:07: Masson now inserts his ‘video clips’ of his ‘climb’ up to the ‘Chimney Tops’ the day before ( Sunday afternoon, November 27, 2016 ).
+3:15: ( Resuming his narration on Monday night )… that mountain probably caused… like one of the best days of our lives… and now it’s totally engulfed. Rest in peace…Gatlinburg.
+3:25: More ‘hiking’ video clips from the day before, including the same ‘video clips’ from the top of the ‘Chimney Tops’ that Masson already inserted previously.
+3:55: Various ‘still photos’ of the fire burning in and around Gatlinburg.
+4:01: A repeat of the ‘split screen’ showing the ‘Chimney Tops 2’ fire as seen in Masson’s Sunday afternoon video… and below it a shot of the fire burning into the Gatlinburg area on Monday evening.
+4:06: An ‘evacuation’ photo showing cars driving on roads surrounded by fire.
+4:32: Video ends.
————————————————————————————
Correction for one of the ‘locations’ reported above in Masson Corlette’s video.
At +1:22 in the video, where Masson has inserted his video footage of the ‘Chimney Tops 2’ fire as it was on Sunday afternoon and seen from the ‘Highway’… he and his friends are NOT actually at the ‘Chimney Tops Trailhead’ parking lot. That video footage was shot from the WEST end of the ‘Chimney Tops Overlook’ parking area, which is to the north and to the west of the ‘Chimney Tops Trailhead’ parking lot itself.
At +1:37 in the video, Masson Corlette is standing exactly here beside that stone wall at that ‘west’ end of the ‘Chimney Tops’ overlook on Highway U.S. 441 South…
35.638811, -83.494455
If you click the following link… a RED BALLOON will appear exactly where Masson is standing at +1:37 into his own video…
https://www.google.com/maps/place/35%C2%B038'19.7%22N+83%C2%B029'40.0%22W/@35.6388153,-83.4966437,753m/data=!3m2!1e3!4b1!4m5!3m4!1s0x0:0x0!8m2!3d35.638811!4d-83.494455
Also notice ( at this +1:37 mark ) that the SUN is about to set behind the RIDGE to the WEST of where Masson and his friends are ‘filming’ the ‘Chimney Tops 2’ fire.
That means it was LATE AFTERNOON on Sunday, November 27, 2016 when this video was being shot.
So that means that either this video was shot AFTER the ‘FOUR Helicopters’ had been ‘working the fire’ that Sunday ( as Cassius Cash says they were )… or the Helicopters had not even ARRIVED even by LATER AFTERNOON on Sunday.
Also notice in this video shot in the LATE AFTERNOON on Sunday that there is NO WIND to speak of. The leaves are barely moving and even when the camera pans down to the parking lot, NONE of the fallen leaves there are ‘blowing around’ at all.
But now that we know this video was shot from the ‘Chimney Tops Overlook’ versus the ‘Chimney Tops Trailhead’ parking lot… it’s important to note that Masson and his friends are ‘filming’ from the exact spot where, less than 12 hours from the time that video was taken, the fire was going to be ‘burning over’ that very area where they are standing.
The ‘Chimney Tops Picnic Area’ is actually down ‘below’ them, and between the camera position and the ‘Chimney Tops’ fire there in the distance.
It has been reported that this ‘Chimney Tops Picnic Area’ and the ‘Chimney Tops Overlook Area’ were ‘burning over’ as early as 7:00 AM the following morning ( Monday morning ).
So the ‘fire’ seen in Masson’s video was ‘about’ to come ( in less than 12 hours ) right down that slope of the Chimney Tops and RIGHT AT THAT LOCATION where they were filming that Sunday afternoon.
On Monday… the fire ‘spread’ rapidly ( to the north ) and after burning through that ‘Chimney Tops Picnic and Overlook Area ( where Masson shot his video ) and by 11:30 AM it was already up near the ‘Twin Creeks Piclnic Area’, just near the northern border of the Park and the southern boundary of Gatlinburg.
WTK said (concerning the Masson video
+1:50: A split-screen with a still photo from Masson’s Sunday video at the top and a photo of the entire Gatlinburg area on fire Monday night.
The picture you describe as “the Gatlinburg area on fire Monday night” is not Gatlinburg at all.
That picture is NOT even the Chimney Tops 2 fire. It is the Walland fire, taken by Bruce McCammish.
I thought it was chimney tops late on Sunday night, when I first saw it. But it is another fire that occurred near the Chimney fire. I believe it crowned also.
Well I was hoping for some great footage that would add to the story.
Masson inserted hiking footage that was NOT from 11/27. There are numerous people on the trail, the swimming, jumping in creek footage is completely unrelated. But most importantly, Masson has no facial hair when standing on the Chimney Trail, compared to standing in parking lot, or later, while hiking out the AT to sleep in his hammock (his next video) where he explains why they did not go up Chimney Tops, as originally planned.
Great catch on noting the sun setting. It does look to be later in the day. Probably after the helicopters were finished dropping water. Could anyone opine on the effect of the water dropping and how it could have / or could not have pushed the fire down the mountain. Like, could the weight of the water have blasted burning material lower on the mountain, igniting fires lower down the mountain? Would this have been a strategy to get the fire off the top, lessening the chance of the fire spreading by spotting when the wind storm hit it?
WTK. I am not going to link the personal accounts of what happened to ignite the Cobbely Knob fire now.
Also it should be noted that there were leaves still hanging from the trees at the Chimney Tops overlook. The leaves were nearly a month late dropping from the trees in the Southeast this year. The fire moved from the Chimneys to lower elevations in and around Gatlinburg where there would have been (presumably) as many or more leaves still curing on the trees.
This fire is said to have crowned, which is atypical of fires in this area. But this happened on a couple fires near the Smokies prior to the Chimney Tops 2 fire.
Reply to calvin post on December 16, 2016 at 5:58 am
>> calvin said…
>>
>> This fire is said to have crowned, which is atypical of fires
>> in this area.
But NOT ‘atypical’ of Wildfires in general in similar terrain/areas under similar conditions and fuel loads, and the ( predicted ) ‘HIGH WINDS’.
>> calvin…
>>
>> But this happened on a couple fires near the Smokies prior
>> to the Chimney Tops 2 fire.
Exactly.
So ‘atypical’ or not… even that ‘Reporter’ at the news conference asked GSMNP Superintendent Cassius Cash WHY he had not taken the same actions that others had even recently… in that same area… on other fires…
From the press conference the morning of Tuesday, November 29, 2016…
——————————————————————————-
Reporter 1: Why not… why not then EVACUATE?… and I don’t know if that would be your call. Why not EVACUATE?… like… in North Carolina… I can tell you I covered the fire… uhm… ‘Party Rock’ fire. They evacuated VERY aggressively… and no one DIED, thankfully, in that… those fires.
( NOTE: Sevier County Mayor Larry Waters again raises his right had and tries to touch Cassius Cash on the arm and get him to ‘step aside’… but Cash again stays right where he is… ready to answer this ‘next question’. Waters just looks ‘pissed off’ now… and remains that way until he jumps in shortly and will abruptly END the press conference ).
GSMNP Superintendent Cassius Cash: Well… first… I don’t have…
Reporter 1: Similar to High Tops…
GSMNP Superintendent Cassius Cash: Right…
Reporter 1: …the fire’s up HIGH.
GSMNP Superintendent Cassius Cash: Right. So I… first… I don’t have the jurisdiction… uh… to… to evacuate a town…
( Moments later, Sevier County Mayor Larry Waters pushes on Cassius Cash’s right arm to get him away from the podium and the microphone, and then Waters ‘announces’ that the press conference is now OVER. )
————————————————————————–
Calvin,
You are correct about the leaves still in the hardwood trees this Fall, both in the Northeaster and Southeastern Regions of the US.
I was on fires in Kentucky and Alabama and traveled through Georgia and noticed the same thing.
That added fuel loading, when they do drop, will make for an interesting Spring fire season.
Reply to Robert the Second ( RTS ) post on December 14, 2016 at 1:41 pm
>> RTS said…
>>
>> This is a link to a December 13, 2016 article titled “The Latest: Cell towers
>> down; no fire evacuation text alert.” Published in Fire Engineering
http://www.fireengineering.com/ap-news/2016/12/13/the-latest-cell-towers-down-no-fire-evacuation-text-alert.html?cmpid=enl_FE_FireEngineeringDaily_2016-12-14&[email protected]&eid=328758895&bid=1614792
Thank you for that link.
>> RTS also said…
>>
>> It now appears that the reason the cell phone evacuation order(s) did not go
>> out was because the Gatlinburg cell towers were ‘out of service.’ Is this what
>> really happened or a CYA excuse?
>>
>> “Officials say a TEXT MESSAGE WARNING residents to evacuate amid
>> deadly wildfires WASN’T SENT because CELL TOWERS WENT OUT
>> OF SERVICE BEFORE AGENCY LEADERS HAD A CHANCE TO AGREE
>> ON THE MESSAGE’S WORDING.” (EMPHASIS ADDED)
>>
>> So there are at least two issues here:
>>
>> (1) Cell towers were ‘out of service’ and
>> (2) agency leaders agreeing on the text message wording. Allegedly.
According to another article written just after the Monday, November 28, 2016 disaster stemming from the ‘Chimey Tops 2’ fire… what REALLY happened there was NOT so much any ‘disagreement’ about the ‘wording’… but just one more ‘fuck up’ on the part of Sevier County Emergency Management and TEMA ( Tennesee Emergency Management Agency ).
And even just this one particular ‘fuck up’ represents just ONE of the HUGE “Lessons to Learn” that can/should come out of this ‘Chimney Tops 2’ fire disaster.
According to that article ( link is below )… what REALLY happened is that whoever the IDIOT was at what the article calls the ‘Sevier County Command Post’ who ‘composed the message’ they wanted TEMA to ‘broadcast’ to ‘mobile devices’ had NO IDEA that the ‘message’ could NOT be more than 90 characters long.
So when that ‘message’ was submitted circa 8:30 PM… and TEMA noticed it was ‘too long’ to be transmitted to mobile devices… TEMA representatives decided that rather then send a ‘truncated’ message… their ‘solution’ was to NOT send anything at all.
Indeed… even though the ‘message’ that was submitted by ‘Sevier County’ officials COULD have been ‘broken up’ in multiple transmits ( each 90 characters or less )… TEMA decided not to do that, either.
All TEMA did was try to ‘recontact’ the ‘Sevier County Command Post’ and inform them that the message was ‘too long’… and then try to get them to resubmit a shorter message that they WOULD be able to transmit to ‘mobile devices’… but that’s when what THEY called ‘power and communications interruptions’ took place and so they were unable to ‘work this out’ for several hours.
By then, of course… many people had already DIED.
TEMA’s ‘excuse’ ( after the fact ) for not realizing that SOME kind of ‘evacuation notice’ NEEDED to be sent RIGHT AWAY ( when requested, at 8:30 PM ) was that rather than send out a message that might have been ‘confusing’… they decided it was better to not send anything at all ( at that time ).
SIDENOTE: The REASON that ’emergency message’ to mobile devices CANNOT be more than 90 characters ( for any one single transmit ) is because the only feasible way to accomplish this is still to just use the old original ‘candy-bar phone’ DoCoMo ‘text’ messaging system as developed by the Japanese when ‘cell phones’ first hit the market.
What most people don’t understand ( but anyone who calls themselves an ‘Emergency Management Official SHOULD ) is that this original DoCoMo 90-character ‘text messaging’ system was developed BEFORE there were any ‘smartphones’ or any ‘cell phones’ capable of an ‘Internet Connection’.
DoCoMo 90-character ‘Text’ messages are messages that can be ’embedded’ in some extra space that the Japanese ‘found’ hidden in the WNPP design ( Wireless Network Packet Protocol ).
But that ‘extra space’ in the ‘cellular radio packets’ themselves can only hold up to 90 text-based characters.
And that is still true TODAY.
If you do NOT have a ‘smartphone’… or even if you DO have a ‘smartphone’ but you do NOT have a ‘data plan’ and you are NOT able to have an ‘Internet Connection’… the only ‘text messages’ you can receive are these small ‘Cellular Packet Network based’ messages ( and NOT Internet ‘messages’ like email or FaceTweets or whatever )
EAS ( Emergency Alert System )
The system that sends ‘alerts’ out to TV and radios ( including weather alert radios ).
Transmissions are handled by the ‘National Weather Service’.
WEA ( Wireless Emergency Alert ) message.
The system that has the ability to send SHORT ( 90 characters or less ) ‘text’ message to all ‘Network Connected’ mobile devices. In Tennessee… transmissions of WEA messages are handled through TEMA ( Tennesee Emergency Management Agency ).
So that is what someone who calls themselves ( and is paid to be ) a ‘communications’ person in an Emergency Management Agency in Sevier County did NOT know that tragic night.
This person did NOT ‘understand’ that the same message they wanted to be sent out via EAS was TOO LONG to be sent to ‘mobile devices’ via the WEA system… and the consternation that resulted from this ‘fuck up’ was the reason that no timely ’emergency evacuation notice’ was ever transmitted to mobile devices that night.
WBIR NEWS
Article Title: Evacuation notices for Gatlinburg, Pigeon Forge never sent to mobile devices
Published: 7:55 PM. EST December 03, 2016 – By: Becca Habegger
http://www.wbir.com/news/local/wildfire/evacuation-notices-for-gatlinburg-pigeon-forge-never-went-to-mobile-devices/362281309
From that article…
———————————————————————————————-
Around 9 p.m., Sevier County and Gatlinburg officials coordinated with the National Weather Service to issue an evacuation notice for the city of Gatlinburg, through something called the Emergency Alert System.
That EAS warning is the message that interrupts your TV program or radio station during, for example, a tornado warning.
Or a fire storm.
That went out at 9:03 p.m. Monday on TV, radio and weather radio.
The EAS, however, does NOT have a mobile text alert component.
That’s according to Anthony Cavallucci, the warning coordination meteorologist at the National Weather Service in Morristown.
That means people relying solely on their phones got NO evacuation alert on their mobile device.
What people did get was another kind of alert at 11:46 p.m., asking “Sevier Co residents please stay off mobile devices unless emergency.”
That text alert was accompanied by the same shrill tone that sounds during an Amber Alert.
Those types of notices are issues through a system called Wireless Emergency Alerts.
This system, launched nationwide less than five years ago, delivers messages to people in emergency situations, including tornado warnings and flash flooding. According to FEMA, the WEA messages are not affected by network congestion.
The Tennessee Emergency Management Agency issues WEA messages here in the Volunteer State.
Another alert was sent out Monday night: an evacuation order for Pigeon Forge. Like the Gatlinburg evacuation order, it was sent through the Emergency Alert System. Also like the Gatlinburg evacuation notice, it was NOT delivered to any mobile device – only broadcast on TV, radio and weather radio.
So why, one might ask, did officials not send the two evacuation notices via the WEA system, which rings the tones and is unaffected by network congestion?
As TEMA spokesperson Dean Flener explained, “It could’ve been sent, but it would not have been the responsible thing to do because you could not give further instructions as to what people should do to evacuate, especially those who don’t live in the city and know the routes.”
That’s because WEA messages, he said, are limited to 90 characters.
“If you say to a visitor, ‘You need to evacuate Gatlinburg’ without giving them any further instructions to say, you know, to take this route or go this way, which you can’t do in 90 characters, you’re really going to put them in more danger,” Flener said.
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So the CYA coming from TEMA spokesman Dean Flener regarding them choosing to NOT send ANY kind of ’emergency evacuation notice’ to mobile phones ( even after being requested to do so ) was that he considered it ‘irresponsible’ to just send some kind of “evacuate now” message without telling people exactly “how to evacuate” ( in 90 characters or less ).
So they ( TEMA ) DECIDED not to send anything at all, when requested to do so.
Followup…
Yes… it was someone’s fault at the ‘Sevier County Command Post’ that night for NOT being familiar with the systems they were trying to use and for NOT knowing that ‘mobile device’ WEA messages had to be 90 characters or less… but there’s plenty of blame left over for TEMA as well.
Their own statements after-the-fact PROVE that there were ‘no communications problems’ ( yet ) at the time they RECEIVED the instructions from the ‘Sevier County Command Post’ to send out ‘mobile alerts’… and that they DID ‘receive’ the message that was SUPPOSED to be sent ( circa 8:30 PM ).
But whatever was then ( supposedly ) preventing them from ‘recontacting’ the ‘Sevier County Command Post’ just to tell them the ‘message was too long’ and to try and get them to ‘submit another message’… that should NOT have prevented them from realizing this was an EMERGENCY… and to use their own brain cells and send out their OWN EMERGENCY MESSAGE as quickly as possible.
They did not ( use their own brain cells ).
And people DIED because of that.
Caveat for everything above…
ALL of these ‘last minute’ attempts to send ‘evacuation notices’ ( regardless of the ‘fuck ups’ and or equipment failures at THAT time ) were still coming WAY TOO LATE.
The ‘overall fuck up’ that evening was that everyone involved WAITED TOO LONG to even BEGIN to transmit ‘Mandatory Evacuation Notices’ in every possible way.
Those ‘evacuation notices’ should have been going out HOURS before they even started to ‘try’ and send them.
What BEGAN to happen at 6:30 PM ( the ember storm ) was completely, and totally PREDICTABLE for HOURS prior to when it actually began.
This is a link to a December 13, 2016 article titled “The Latest: Cell towers down; no fire evacuation text alert.” Published in Fire Engineering
It now appears that the reason the cell phone evacuation order(s) did not go out was because the Gatlinburg cell towers were ‘out of service.’ Is this what really happened or a CYA excuse?
“Officials say a TEXT MESSAGE WARNING residents to evacuate amid deadly wildfires WASN’T SENT because CELL TOWERS WENT OUT OF SERVICE BEFORE AGENCY LEADERS HAD A CHANCE TO AGREE ON THE MESSAGE’S WORDING.” (EMPHASIS ADDED)
So there are at least two issues here: (1) Cell towers were ‘out of service’ and (2) agency leaders agreeing on the text message wording. Allegedly.
“In a news conference Tuesday, Gatlinburg Fire Chief Greg Miller said that on Nov. 28 at 8:30 p.m. John Mathews of the Sevier County Emergency Management Agency tried to call the Tennessee Emergency Management Agency to discuss sending the text. Miller said that’s about when two cell towers went down.”
“Miller said TEMA tried to reconnect to get approval of the language of the alert, but couldn’t, and didn’t send the message because the wording wasn’t approved.”
Reconnect? Reconnect with the cell towers or reconnect with the Tennessee Emergency Management Agency officials?
“Miller said an inappropriate message could have evacuated people toward the fire, instead of away from it.”
“Officials went door-to-door to evacuate people, used social media and news releases, and sounded a downtown siren with a spoken message.”
“Sevier County Mayor Larry Waters says there will be a comprehensive evaluation of the alert system, among other issues.”
___
“10 a.m.
“Local officials estimate that deadly wildfires in East Tennessee have caused more than $500 million in damage.
“Sevier County Mayor Larry Waters released the estimate Tuesday for the wildfires in the Gatlinburg area that killed 14 people.
“Officials say 2,460 structures were destroyed or damaged, including more than 2,100 homes and almost 60 businesses destroyed.”
“Also on Tuesday, Deputy Superintendent of Great Smoky Mountains National Park Clay Jordan said officials believe there was NO WAY TO CONTROL THE FIRE IN THE PARK BEFORE extreme winds brought it into the Gatlinburg area Nov. 28.” (EMPHASIS ADDED)
“NO WAY TO CONTROL the fire in the park BEFORE extreme winds brought it into the Gatlinburg area Nov. 28.
No way to control the fire in the park BEFORE extreme winds brought it into the Gatlinburg area Nov. 28? Really? There seemed to be plenty of time and ample opportunities to do so.
“Jordan also said there was NO NUMBER OF FIREFIGHTERS OR FIRE TRUCKS that could have stopped the spread of the fires IN THOSE WIND CONDITIONS, which reached gusts about 87 miles per hour.” (EMPHASIS ADDED)
This would likely be an accurate statement based on several factors: the ongoing and historical drought; the significant wind speeds; significant fuel loadings; the sheer number of structures with little or no Firewise mitigation; and the massive, ubiquitous ember showers
Once again, it helps to send the link.
http://www.fireengineering.com/ap-news/2016/12/13/the-latest-cell-towers-down-no-fire-evacuation-text-alert.html?cmpid=enl_FE_FireEngineeringDaily_2016-12-14&[email protected]&eid=328758895&bid=1614792
Robert,
As in Yarnell’s Tenderfoot fire, it appears that cell towers were not maintained in a FireWise manner. It also appears from the news coverage that evacuation plans for fire are inherently more chaotic than for flood or other hazards whose movements can be more easily predicted. Add to that, multiple jurisdictions with little to no knowledge of current conditions, it was bound to be a mess. It might have helped if there had been daily updates on the fire perimeter, which I was unable to find until after the blowup.
It seems that officials all over the country have failed to understand the essential part that cell communications play in our lives. Moms no longer iron in front of a tv or radio all day to hear a notice, We are on Sirius rather than local radio, and we don’t have neighbor-to-neighbor networks to look after elders. And forget land lines. We need to harden cell service, it’s not just a luxury any more.
The touristic areas are even worse off because there is a negative effect on tourism of posted safety warning signs and many roads cleared 300ft or more on both sides to assure passibility in a fire. And it’s costly to do all this for a 100 year event. A minority of those staying in the area are true locals, so they are unfamiliar with their choices of roads, even when they do have a choice, although many areas only had a single way out. The way city officials see the situation is that evacuations spell huge losses to the whole area, so their butts are on the line if they pull the alarm too soon or unnecessarily. Again, there is not a great depth of fire experience in a rain forest.
If the NPS has a “”let it burn” policy, the locals need to know what that means to them. Cassius Cash is correct that there is no way to stop a fire at the border of the park, but I fear that the local FDs did not grok that.
As bad as it was, given the speed and breadth of the blowup, it’s miraculous that so few people died.
Muzzy. I would go so far as to say the evacuations were NOT ordered because of the tourism industry. Hell even the town mayor Mike Werner, owned a large business there. He owned Highlands Condominiums, which was destroyed.
If only the rain had arrived 8 hours earlier. I live pretty close to Gatlinburg, Everyone in the area had been waiting on that rain for a week
Calvin,
I’m sorry for the losses of all in the area, including your beautiful Smokies. I hope the area rebounds quickly.
The emphasis on tourism seems to have extended to after the tragedy, as well. I followed a few local Facebook pages to see if they would offer more details about the fire, but they seemed determined to let the world know they were open for business with little or no reference to the fire or any attendant closures or inconveniences.
I have a lot of sympathy for the local NPS and civilian authorities. They have been allowed to rely on the rain in the past. From now on, though, they and all in the rest of the country need to incorporate lessons learned to avoid problems in the future. We will never be 100%, but it seems from what little I know that each step had it’s own preventable failures.
I’m beginning to understand why this new blameless CRP investigation system has become popular. It is more important to find out exactly what happened than to castigate well intentioned, inexperienced administrators. Anyone who believes that they or a colleague will face charges will be loathe to come forward. We need all the details and a complete timeline, not accusations and second guessing.
A word about tourist business. I think some people look down on certain businesses as though they are frivolous or pointless, but it’s good to remember that those jobs are very important to those who depend on them. The mayor and others surely benefited more handsomely than the chambermaids and waiters, but all of them, as well as first responders, linemen, and countless more, depend on the revenue and the taxes they bring in.
Giving tourists a carefree experience while keeping the city running is an art requiring judgement and finesse, and they don’t always get it right. Sometimes people die in traffic accidents, drown, get eaten by crocs, struck by lightning. This was a tragedy for sure, but as we look at each of the deaths, at all the decisions, we will likely see that some of them would have been hard to avoid, or that the individuals themselves should have known better than take actions they did. In California, people, frequently older people, stubbornly refuse to leave or go back for pets or mementos. They underestimate the time it takes to get out, or they fail to anticipate the effect of smoke even in the absence of flames.
I fear that the snarky, disparaging tone we see often here on IM actively discourages participation in investigations. We need a better way if we want to move forward.
Muzzy,
You posted: “… evacuation plans for fire are inherently more chaotic than for flood or other hazards whose movements can be more easily predicted. Add to that, multiple jurisdictions with little to no knowledge of current conditions, it was bound to be a mess.”
You are absolutely correct. ‘They’ usually wait way too long to make the call. Regarding the multiple, local jurisdictions, they SHOULD have had plenty of local knowledge of the weather conditions.
What we generally see is their denial of the obvious – it is NOT normal and out of the normal realm, but few rarely recognize it and act accordingly. ‘They’ are the frog in the cold water heated up and we, the visiting outsiders there to assist, are the frog in the boiling water, saying WTF, aren’t you seeing what’s happening or going to happen here?
Your point on CELL PHONE communication is so true.
You posted: “I’m beginning to understand why this new blameless CRP investigation system has become popular. It is more important to find out exactly what happened than to castigate well intentioned, inexperienced administrators. Anyone who believes that they or a colleague will face charges will be loathe to come forward. We need all the details and a complete timeline, not accusations and second guessing.”
This is where we part My Dear. I feel the CRaP ‘process’ has SOME good points, however, they do not go far enough into one’s Decision Making and resultant Human Failures.
.
I wonder if, when Cash says there was no way to fight the fire within the park, he meant that there was no way to do so within his NPS rules and constraints.
“GRSM Wildland Fire Management Goals
The Park’s fire management goals are to:
A. Protect human life, communities, and resources from the adverse effects of wildfire without compromising safety.
B. Maintain and restore fire adapted ecosystems using appropriate tools and techniques in a manner that will provide sustainable, ecological and social benefits.
C. Integrate knowledge generated through fire and natural resource research into fire management priorities, decisions and actions.
D. Integrate fire as a natural process into the Park’s ecosystem to the fullest extent possible.
E. Communicate and coordinate with interagency organizations and other stakeholders to pursue common goals, programs and projects.
F. Build and promote organizational effectiveness by building program capacity, leadership, and effective management practices.”
Umm, they said: ” Integrate fire as a natural process into the Park’s ecosystem to the fullest extent possible……& maintain/restore fire adapted ecosystems” I say:
Told ya (is there an echo in here?) T O L D Y A TOLDYA ToldYa toldya………
The GSMNP has 2 self-declared options from which to choose in taking action in the event of a wildfire in the park according to their own plan they’ve written.
(my interpretation here)
#1. Do nothing
#2. Do a little more than nothing…maybe
Never ever take my thoughts as the last word on anything. Look into it yourself & come to you own conclusion. Here ya go:
https://parkplanning.nps.gov/showFile.cfm?projectID=28071&MIMEType=application%252Fpdf&filename=GRSM%20Draft%20Fire%20Management%20Plan%20Environmental%20Assessment%2Epdf&sfid=69457
https://parkplanning.nps.gov/showFile.cfm?projectID=28071&MIMEType=application%252Fmsword&filename=Fire%20Mgmt%20EA%20Press%20Release%2Edoc&sfid=69452
Read that document & let me know if you believe I’m full of it. Thanks!
Back to the great outdoors now…chores to do. woodsman chores…because there’s no free lunch, ya know.
Woodsman
Oh & where is this ‘Rain Forest’ in the state of Tennessee located exactly? I’d really like to check it out since I never knew of it’s existence. Thanks!
W
Hi Woodsman,
Actually, temperate rain forest, most of which are costal. The Appalachian ones are pretty special:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Temperate_rainforest
Regarding NPS fire policy, it seems as I had feared. The policy might be questionable vis a vis human caused fire even if fire was completely containable in wilderness, but with the WUI growing…
Maybe that is just the way it has to be: uncompromising policy in the park and let the WUI managers do what needs to be done to stay safe when the WUI gets wiped out by escaping fire. Otherwise, forcing the forest to consider the WUI will turn the park into a rural Central Park or Botanical Garden.
Hard choices…
BTW, I haven’t forgotten about our discussion on global warming. I have been doing research on the evidence, along with the usual holiday distractions, but I hope to have a thoughtful reply soon.
Muzzy,
Count me on in the ‘Global Warming’ discussion. I look forward to your “thoughtful reply.”
**
** OLDER OF THE TWO TEENAGERS CHARGED IN ‘CHIMNEY TOPS 2’ FIRE
** IS THE SON OF AN ANDERSON COUNTY SHERIFF’S OFFICE EMPLOYEE
I still can’t find out which ‘local’ ( Gatlinburg area ) TV station was ‘announcing’
even WHILE the tragedy was taking place ( on Monday evening, November 28, 2016 )
that the ’cause’ of the ‘Chimney Tops 2’ fire appeared to be “kids tossing matches
on the trail”… but new details emerging about the ‘arrests’ appears to confirm
that was ‘accurate information’… however that TV station heard it.
One of the ‘juveniles’ arrested also appears to be the son of an Anderson County
( Tennessee ) Sheriff’s Office employee…
The Knoxville News Sentinel
Article Title: Sources: Teens toying with matches started Gatlinburg wildfire.
Published: 6:48 p.m. EST December 9, 2016 – By: Jamie Satterfield
http://www.knoxnews.com/story/news/crime/2016/12/09/sources-teens-toying-matches-started-fatal-wildfire/95210356/
—————————————————————————
The teenagers charged with setting the fire in the Great Smoky Mountains National Park that ultimately spread to torch thousands of homes and businesses and kill 14 people were horsing around with matches, sources say.
The boys, ages 17 and 15, were charged this week in Sevier County Juvenile Court with aggravated arson in the Nov. 28 wildfires that shut down the city of Gatlinburg at the height of its winter tourism season and damaged or destroyed more than 2,400 homes and businesses. The death toll included two children and a woman who died fleeing the flames
Sources familiar with the teenagers and the investigation but not authorized to speak publicly about the case say the two boys are friends and live in Anderson County. The boys were hiking on the Chimney Tops trail in the park on Nov. 23 and tossing lit matches onto the ground around the trail, the sources said. A hiker unwittingly captured an image of the boys walking away from the trail with smoke in the background, and the teenagers’ clothing helped authorities identify them, according to sources.
The oldest boy is the son of an Anderson County Sheriff’s Office employee, according to sources. The News Sentinel has learned 4th Judicial District Public Defender Ed Miller has been tapped to represent the 17-year-old, while veteran Knoxville defense attorney Gregory P. Isaacs has been retained by the family of the younger teen. Miller did not return a phone call Friday. Isaacs would not say whether he represents the boy.
—————————————————————————
And… to the reporter’s credit… he ENDS the article by making TWO things clear to the reader…
1. The fire(s) on the Chimney Tops trail STARTED on Wednesady, November 23, 2016… FIVE DAYS BEFORE the fire escaped the Smoky Mountain National Park and killed 14 innocent people.
2. Any charges of ‘murder’ or ‘manslaughter’ that might be brought against the teens will then HAVE to address the issue(s) surrounding WHY Smoky Mountain Park Superintendent ‘Cassius Cash’ ( and others ) did NOTHING to ‘put out’ and/or even ‘contain’ the fire for FIVE DAYS, with known ‘extreme drought’ and ‘extreme fire conditions’ present in the Park.
From the END of the article…
—————————————————————————
Authorities have said they believe last week’s deadly wildfires began with the Nov. 23 blaze at Chimney Tops. The fire initially did not pose a threat to Gatlinburg or surrounding areas, but on Nov. 28, hurricane-style winds hit Sevier County and spread the embers of the fire already burning in the park to lower elevations. Prosecutors would need to show the boy’s actions – by playing with matches – directly resulted in the deaths of the fire victims. Any action or inaction by the National Park Service in handling the Chimney Tops blaze would come into play should felony murder charges be sought.
—————————————————————————
“Any action or inaction by the National Park Service in handling the Chimney Tops blaze would come into play should felony murder charges be sought.”
Well…I think this does fall into the category of what I thought it might be in the first place…stupid young people screwing around as opposed to “real” arsonists. So…I do think the fire was a by-product of another activity.
That is NOT how arsonists start fires. That is how stupid young people start fires which they can also do with fireworks and a whole bunch of other ways.
Like I also said, it doesn’t really make any difference to the dead or their loved ones, but there is a difference.
There really isn’t any difference here with the anecdote I related about the Boy Scouts dropping burning toilet paper onto bone dry organic material, the end result was just as predictable except one resulted in a burned down high tech decomposition outhouse and the other one was…horrific.
However, this was Negligent Homicide…kind of like Marsh and Steed did with their crew. Yes, that’s right for you reality deniers out there…just like it.
What happened to the ‘Boy Scouts’?
‘Aggravated arson’ charges ( like the teens in Tennessee )… or just “Stupid Kid’ charges and some time picking up crap on the side of highways?
Nothing, no charges. Just paid 100 grand for the outhouse, they were just stupid kids playin, around. They weren’t bad kids, just being kids. I know everyone is going to want to hang those kids in Tennessee, but without more information on their background as in previous criminal history, they were just being stupid kids without mal intent. Normally you have to have “intent” to violate the law not just “stupid”
Once again, I have a lot of questions about who did or do not do what in terms of fire suppression and the appropriate evacuation orders given in a timely manner. Connunity leaders are supposed to have brains that are fully developed and functioning at the optimal level.
That was an expensive outhouse–100grand? Dung will burn once dehydrated–human feces as well–. One of the best desert methods to make an outhouse is to bury a fifty gallon drum–or thirty gallon one if needing less capacity. Then cover with your toilet seat–and if you are safe enough behind a bush pile or want to put up posts and some canvas–then when in purgatory country–for example Dolan Springs area, the dung will dehydrate and once half full or so, light a match to the toilet paper and you won’t have to worry about cleaning out the barrel. It will burn like a wick and smolder–stink like hell so you ought to stay away for a day or so and use a latrine. I know this from experience–and information that might come in handy for some down the line–maybe even some desert rats out there now. If the toilet above happens to burn, no $100,000 value there. I think only government sponsored toilets are worth that much.
It was new space age decomposition outhouse like they build now in most places. They can handle a lot of use because they are designed to dry everything out so everything just turns to dust…wait a minute WTF, I don’t work for for the government anymore, why am I defending how much they spend on a fuckin’ out house for YOU PEOPLE To shit in that doesn’t smell bad that you don”t have to pump out?
ew topic here…but thank you Sonny at last minute notice for allowing me to drive to Mississippi to see my 106 y.o. pal and then swing up to Tennessee…I needed this moment…thank you
It was just handled as a civil case against the Boy Scouts. The leaders were supposed to be superbing the kids and these were kids not borderline adapts. The federal system is not set up to handle juvenile cases those and thos cases are always wrong eferred to be he state who set up to handle juveniles. So depending on state standards for adaults and previous criminal history these kids might get another chance or they might be in really big trouble. But since it sounds like they are local kids they and their families are probably in some really deep shit.
Supervising the kids
Borderline adults
I guess what I am trying to say is that the circumstances of this case sound unusual as an arson case. I mean two young men hiking on a trail casually flipping burning matches out in broad daylight in front of other people who are taking their photographs? Did!nt those other people say “hey…knock that shit off!” And call in the rangers I like RIGHT NOW! And then start putting little fires out? There is a lot we don’t know.
‘
That is a good question Gary–Why would you allow kids to be flipping matches and just photograph them?
We just had another report of a death here–young gal about 43 yr.old found dead after 4 days missing–up near the towers about quarter mile up the hill from the east side of Yarnell. I thought it might be due to hiking in the retardant zone, but there is no report of foul play.
People were calling to see if it was Joy–no she is still in there doing her investigations–even looking into this particular death now. Official story is that it appears that no foul play involved.
Thanks for the birthday well wishes. I did enjoy some time with my Son and grandson–then we took a trip to Phoenix and spent a nice visit with my Daughter–other son and grandson–there are other grandsons, granddaughters scattered about as well. I had a few Guiness–Joy drove home- we got in late but I was out fixing fence this morning so my watch dogs don’t get out. Seems they were climbing boulders but I fixed that. Here if your pooch gets loose you have snitches that call the sheriff department–they collect huge fines for catching a dog loose no matter how docile that dog is. The dog is incarcerated, you are given a big bill for the incarceration and a big fine is added to that. It helps pay the dog catchers wages and sweeten the coffers of the county. The old time way of contacting your neighbor or helping him get his pet back is no longer the way many people do things. It is pick up the phone now and call the sheriff. Well, when we see a pooch loose, Joy and I know how the county folks will do so we work hard to find the owner. Fences sometimes get broken, pooches are quick to run off at times and accidents happen–no need to get people into debt just because their pooch goes astray.
One guy was predicting earthquakes by watching stray pet adds. Somehow the dogs and cats do everything to go astray just before earthquakes. Maybe they can hear the low rumbles deep in the earth before a quake. My dogs I notice this morning were hot to try to get out because of the Javalina group that passes right in front of our place just about every morning. It will be a good thing they do not get out since a Javalina will make mincemeat out of any dog. My friend’s pit bull was put down twice by javalina and saved only by Jay having shot the Javalina off. The dog both times was laid up over two weeks recovering–attests to a pit bulls determination to kill Javalina and incapability to understand that the little Javalina is not to be messed with.
Gary.
Someone started a fire on top of the Chimneys on 11/13. I do not have any evidence it was the same boys, but it seems like a safe assumption. Maybe not?
If they did set both fires on Chimney Tops, does that make them more on the arson side vs stupid kids?
I think we woulnd still need more information about how the fires were started? For example did they take steps to sneak in and then set the fire then sneak out or were they stupid kids going for a hike and making no effort to hide themselves or their activities?
We need to know what their “intent” was. Did they intend to start a forest fire or where they just doing something stupid like flicking burning matches, they certainly should have known their actions could result in a forest fire, but did theY.
And what was their mental state? Are they mentally challenged? Were they under the influence of drugs or alchohol like I believe a significant portion of the granite mountain crew was.?
Probably. But it think the law is going to treat it the same no matter what, especially with all the damage and deaths.
The authorities will want to compensate for how bad they fucked up by crucifying those young men and for all I know, they deserve to be crucified.?
Gary Olson said…
“That is NOT how arsonists start fires. That is how stupid young people start fires which they can also do with fireworks and a whole bunch of other ways.”
Exactly… and as you also already pointed out earlier… TRUE “pyros” usually ‘work alone’.
Because the Fire Gods made a four day delay to put out the fire, it looks as if again the attitude that certain areas need burn outs. When the opportunity comes in the form of a lightening strike or someone starting a fire either by arson or accident, then the fire is allowed to do its work.
This was seen here in Yarnell as well in both the Yarnell Death Fire and the Yarnell Tenderfoot Fire. In both fires, burnouts and backburns were the order of the day and both fires these burnout situations backfired as far as results–so we have burnouts that are backfires. The Yarnell Death Fire killed 19 in a hurry while the Tenderfoot burnout killed the electric for three days in some areas and cost thousands to repair, burned three structures, and made it necessary to dump hundreds of thousands of gallons of retardant along the east side of Yarnell near structures again. That burnout also spread to the North East, threatened Peeples Valley so both Yarnell and Peeples Valley were again under mandatory evacuation orders and a few million more of tax money was now in order to get in a slew of crews to protect Peeples Valley and being it was headed toward Wagooneer community, more tons of retardant were dropped and the newly created fire by burnout was the main focus of wild land fire fighting attention.
So what happened? An arsonist reward of $5000 was put up–the local fire department was touted as heroes that saved Yarnell and to date the arsonist has not been found. If the arsonist is found, just like the teen agers there in the Gatlinburg disaster, you can bet that person or persons will be charged with all the damage–even that done by the local fire department.
I do believe that a wild land division needs to decide how to fight a wild land fire and not a local fire department inexperienced or under experienced in how to fight wild land fires.
All the above is only my opinion. So take it with a grain of salt if you prefer since Joy has yet to get FOIA information on either the Tenderfoot or the Death Fire of June 30,2013 from either the Peeples Valley Fire Department or the local Yarnell Fire Department. Maybe they neglected to keep a record of anything? But perhaps that information and if commercial, then it will be published and the real professional wild land fire fighters of long time experience and wisdom can evaluate their performances
Now when it came to mining–it was a lot more simpler–your performance was well known by what you produced. What I saw produced from both fires here I had to give marks of the poorest of performances. In mining you would have been fired immediately had you produced similarly.
*
Reply to calvin post on December 5, 2016 at 6:34 pm
>> calvin said…
>>
>> Many thanks for the links.
>>
>> But I think Chalet Village is just west of Gatlinburg. It is on the map
>> between Gatlinburg and Cove Mountain.
Yes. You are exactly right. Thanks for correcting me.
Somehow I got ‘turned around’ on exactly where ‘Chalet Village’ is/was.
>> calvin said…
>>
>> The area you are describing is the Cobbely Knob fire.
Correct. I really did get ‘twisted around’ on where ‘Chalet Village’ was, so thanks for pointing that out.
‘Chalet Village’ was, in fact, that area to the NORTHWEST of Gatlinburg itself, and not that area way to the EAST of Gatlinburg ( where the ‘Cobbly Knob Rental Cabins’ are ) where all those other structures were destroyed.
>> calvin also said…
>>
>> Said to have been started 11/28 night when a power line went down or
>> a transformer blew, cant remember which right now.
Yes. The ‘Inciweb’ page for the ‘Cobbyl Knob Fire’ puts the ‘origin time’ at ‘approximately 6:30 PM’, which is exactly when the really HIGH WINDS hit the area and along with the resulting ’ember storm’… power lines and trees were going down.
But even as of yesterday… the ‘InciWeb’ page for the “Cobbly Knob” says that the ’cause’ of the fire is ‘Human’ ( and not because of a ‘downed power line’ ).
InciWeb page for the “Cobbly Knob” fire in Sevier County, Tennessee…
http://inciweb.nwcg.gov/incident/5113/
From that page…
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Incident Overview
The Cobbly Knob fire is managed by the Southern Area Incident Management
Team along with the Chimney Tops 2 fire near the Great Smoky Mountains
National Park and Gatlinburg, TN.
Basic Information
Current as of: 12/9/2016, 5:53:34 PM
Incident Type: Wildfire
Cause: Human
Date of Origin: Monday, November 28th, 2016 approx. 06:30 PM
Location: TEN MILES east of Gatlinburg, TN
Incident Commander: Mike Dueitt – SA Red Team
Incident Description: Suppression
Current Situation
Total Personnel: 46
Size: 756 Acres
Percent of Perimeter Contained: 96%
Estimated Containment Date: Tuesday December 20th, 2016 approx. 12:00 AM
Fuels Involved: Dormant Brush, Hardwood Slash, Hardwood Litter
Significant Events: Minimal. Smoking and smoldering in heavy fuels.
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There is also the following from a news release about the 2 ‘arrests’ that were made.
It seems to suggest that officials ARE considering this ‘Cobbly Knob’ fire to have been CAUSED by the ember storm that was hitting Gatlinburg and Pigeon Forge… and that the ‘juveniles’ WILL be charged with causing BOTH fires…
92.3 WNPC RADIO
From their article about the ‘arrests’…
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During a Wednesday news conference Prosecutor Dunn announced that the juveniles have been charged with aggravated arson in the case. He declined to release the ages or gender of the defendants. During the course of the investigation, information was developed that the juveniles started the fire at Chimney Tops, and it spread as far north as Cobbly Nob.
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“During the course of the investigation, information was developed that the juveniles started the fire at Chimney Tops, and it spread as far north as Cobbly Nob.”
So that sure-as-heck sounds like they ( TBI ) are ‘assuming’ that the ‘Cobbly Knob’ fire WAS started by ’embers’ from the ‘Chimney Tops’ fire ( and not by any downed power line )… and that they ARE going to try and pin BOTH of these ‘fires’ on the ‘juveniles’ they have in custody.
Regarding the ‘stories’ about them ‘lighting matches’… it turns out that appears to have been first reported by a local TV station even AS the ’ember storm’ was starting the evening of Monday, November 28, 2016.
At the beginning of that ‘Escape From Chalet Village’ video that Woodsman posted a link to… ( the one showing Anthony Fulton & Michael Luciano escaping Chalet Village ), there is a reference to “kids playing with matches” in the video itself.
People then left comments about this video ( at both YouTube and the Gatlinburg ‘REDDIT’ site ) saying they assumed that what Mr. Fulton & Mr. Luciano were referring to was something that had aired on a local TV station BEFORE they started their “Escape from Chalet Village”.
** THE VIDEO – ESCAPE FROM CHALET VILLAGE
That Video of the ‘Escape from Chalet Village’ that Woodsman posted a link to is HERE…
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NGyHu4iX5-Y
————————————————————————
Description: Anthony Fulton & Michael Luciano escaping the inferno of flames
in Chalet Village located in Gatlinburg, TN …
First posted on ‘Facebook’ by ‘Michael Luciano’.
————————————————————————
** THE VIDEO SHOWS THE ‘REED’ CABIN ENGULFED IN FLAMES
Someone usinig the handle ‘2wheelpiracy’ left a ‘comment’ on the original ‘Chalet Village Escape’ video which points out that just before the GREEN ‘City Limit’ sign is seen on the right side of the road… the cabin that is seen completely in flames was, in fact, the ‘Michael and Constance Reed’ residence. At the point in the video where we see the Reed cabin burning, it is very likely that Constance Reed and her two daughters ( 12-year-old Chloe and 9-year-old Lily ) were most likely already dead there at that location where their bodies were eventually found.
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Comment by: 2wheelpiracy
The people that we saw at the top of the mountain. Could that possibly be the Summers family that didnt make it out? And at +7:28 they are passing the Reed’s Residence on Wiley Oakley Dr. right before the green city limit sign on the right. The Cabin on the right down off of the road. Right after he say “every fucking cabin”
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I have my own copy of the ‘video’… and have verified what ‘2wheelpiracy’ is claiming by going ‘frame by frame’… but with just a very slight difference in the ‘times’ They seem to be passing the ‘Reed’ cabin ( at 341 Wiley Oakley Dr. ) at exactly +7:24, four seconds earlier than ‘2wheelpiracy’ said.
And yes… the Reed cabin ( off to their right ) is fully engulfed in flames at this moment they are ‘passing’ it in the video while headed down ‘Wiley Oakley Drive’ to the Gatlinburg ‘Welcome Center’. ( which is where they are when the video ‘ends’ ).
** COMMENTS REFERENCING ‘PLAYING WITH MATCHES’…
Some of these comments are more than a week old, and were posted right after the video appeared…
—————————————————————-
Comment by: Greg Waldrop – 1 week ago
Reports are that someone was striking matches in an area called Chimney Rock (5 to 6 straight miles from town center). 50 to 70 mph winds took it from there.
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Comment by: Greg Waldrop – 1 week ago
50 to 70 mile an hour swirling winds on Monday is how. Gatlinburg area is not a single mountain. It is a series of peaks and steep valleys winding in all directions. The small fires in the area were contained by the fire fighters but speculation is this was set by someone striking matches on monday in an area called chimney rocks…approximately 5 to 6 straight line miles from the city center. With the high winds and the worst drought in probably 30 years, the mountain was kindling waiting to burn.
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NOTE: I haven’t been able to find out WHICH local TV station was reporting about the ‘striking matches’ on the very evening of the disaster or… where THEY might have gotten that information even while the disaster was unfolding that evening of November 28, 201
And here are the comments left about ‘kids playing with matches’ on the Gatlinburg REDDIT site and it being ‘announced’ by local media on the very night of the disaster, November 28, 2016…
This is a link to the ‘REDDIT’ thread with the title “How did the fires start?’…
https://www.reddit.com/r/Gatlinburg/comments/5g11n5/how_did_the_fires_start/
From that Gatlinburg REDDIT forum thread…
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Comment from: ALynn1982 – 9 days ago
The guy who video’d his escape from chalet village said it was caused by “an idiot flipping matches on a trail”.
Reply from: skymack – 8 days ago
I was watching the news live the night it moved into town and the reporter who was there said something about someone thinking it would be funny to light and throw matches. Only time I’ve heard about matches being the cause of the fire. The Chalet Village guy said he was watching the news that night. There’s a slight chance that’s where he could have gotten it from…
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WTK
YouTube had a video and it was titled something like fire on the mountain, or burn the mountain down ( I cant remember which). The video started getting attention just a couple days after Gatlinburg was burned. The footage showed a couple or maybe even 3 people on the Chimney Tops trail. People were quickly assuming this was related to the fire. I only watched the video one time before it was removed. I did not see any evidence of them lighting or dropping matches. But I was not looking very close. I didn’t really give it a chance to be important. I did note that the people in the video were young and there footwear didn’t seem that of a hiker.
WTK said
I still can’t find out which ‘local’ ( Gatlinburg area ) TV station was ‘announcing’
even WHILE the tragedy was taking place ( on Monday evening, November 28, 2016 )
that the ’cause’ of the ‘Chimney Tops 2’ fire appeared to be “kids tossing matches
on the trail”… but new details emerging about the ‘arrests’ appears to confirm
that was ‘accurate information’… however that TV station heard it.
This may be a small issue but give me a second. The reports are that the kids were actually dropping matches “on the trail”. This is important. If the fire was started along the trail, it should have been accessible enough on 11/24 (Thanksgiving) to have been engaged and possibly suppressed? If these kids had scrambled off the trail a couple hundred yards and set the fire or fires, I could understand the lack of access to fight or suppress the fire.
Personally. I do not think the boys will ever be linked to the first Chimney Tops fire. It is almost like it never existed. There is direct evidence that a burning tree was sawed down right along the trail during the first Chimneys fire. The first Chimney fire only grew to 1/4 acre. The second fire was first noted at 1acre. And doubled in size each day until the blow up
There are 2 direct accounts of the fire in Cobbely Knob. Both say the fire started with a downed power line.
And if there was a fire started by embers as early as 6pm in Cobbely knob, That means the fire had flanked Gatlinburg to the east and was now beyond Gatlinburg
Do you have links to those ‘accounts’ of the Cobbly Knob fire definitely being attributed to a ‘downed power line’?
All I’m seeing are more articles saying that the TBI ( Tennessee Bureau of Investigations ) has officially ‘concluded’ that the Cobbly Knob fire was started by ’embers’ blowing there from the ‘Chimney Tops 2’ fire… and that they intend to try and pin both fires on the juveniles they have already arrested.
The Great Smoky Mountains National Park Face book page reported Monday at 11/28 at 1046am that “gusting wind have caused the fire to spot across the ridges in the Chimney Tops and Bullhead ridge area”
That seems to be confirmation that the fire had crossed 441 early in the day..The fire was reported to be near the Twin Creeks Picnic at 1130am.
These three known fire locations line up pretty straight in a South to North line starting at the chimneys. .And. I just came across a new to me picture of the same intersection in Gatlinburg photographed at 1028 and 1052am Monday that shows a dramatic increase in smoke with decreased visibility.
Appears the fire was flanking Gatlinburg (to the East, near Mynatt Park and Park Vista Hotel before noon on Monday 11/28.
Question. Do arsonists typically work alone? I have seen a couple of pics that show possibly two smoke columns. Maybe these two individuals built two separate fires.?
Also. the Great Smoky Mountains National Park Facebook page reported on November 14 at 3:49pm that the FIRST Chimney Tops fire was burning near the summit of the Chimney Tops Trail and that it was being monitored. There are two pictures included.. The second picture appears to be looking down the trail. There appears to be evidence that there WAS work done there as there appears to be a burning log that has been chain sawed. Looks like the smaller end was pretty much burnt up possibly meaning the fire was in the crown of the tree? You can see many videos of this hiking trail pre burn on you tube and they do show large numbers of standing dead hemlock. Victims of the Balsam Wooly Adelgid,
More discussion concerning the infamous FIRST Chimney Top fire. I am sure
YARNELL HILL FIRE
If anyone has time could you please explain what the HAIL MARY PLAN was for this fire?