Please begin Yarnell Hill Fire Chapter XXV here

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Chapter I, Chapter II, Chapter II supplement, Chapter III, Chapter IV, Chapter V, Chapter VI, Chapter VII, Chapter VIII , Chapter IX,  Chapter X, Chapter XI, Chapter XII , Chapter XIII, Chapter XIV,  Chapter XV,  Chapter XVI, Chapter XVII, Chapter XVIII, Chapter XIX, Chapter XX, Chapter XXI, Chapter XXII, Chapter XXIII and Chapter XXIV.

 

© Copyright 2017 John Dougherty, All rights Reserved. Written For: Investigative MEDIA

Comments

  1. Cheerleader says

    The “bait-and-switch”

    from the surprisingly

    frank Burn-Baby-Burn

    “reincarnated”

    Woodsman of Olde

    into the “far safer and more politically correct”

    Critic of Managerial Oversight Responsibility

    (equally valid, tho’ it may be)

    would seem to best be described, thusly…

    “What are we

    DOING

    or

    NOT DOING

    to make BURN-BABY-BURN

    more likely to be accident free

    while providing an efficient service to THOSE taxpayers NOT

    living in the Wildland-Urban-Interface, when it comes to wildfires in the US?”

  2. WantsToKnowTheTruth says

    On March 29, 2018 at 10:19 pm, Robert the Second (RTS) said…

    >> Good stuff Gary,
    >>
    >> Here is a link for Leadership and Biographical information on Dr. Putnam.
    >>
    >> https://www.fireleadership.gov/toolbox/leaders_meet/interviews/leaders_TedPutnam.html
    >>
    >> I will follow up at another time with his article titled:
    >> “Accidents, accident guides, stories and the truth.”
    >>
    >> This amazing paper is published in the Proceedings of 11th International
    >> Wildland Fire Safety Summit, April 4-8, 2011, Missoula, Montana, USA;
    >> Published by the International Association of Wildland Fire,
    >> Missoula, Montana, USA

    Here is a link to where that ( full ) paper by Dr. Ted Putnam can be downloaded…

    Eleventh International Wildland Fire Safety Summit
    April 4-8, 2011 Hilton Garden Inn Missoula, MT
    Promoting the Story of Wildland Fire Safety.
    Presentation Title: Accidents, Accident Guides, Stories and the Truth
    Presented By: Dr. Ted Putnam, Mindful Solutions

    http://s000.tinyupload.com/?file_id=05262454341263280395

    • Robert the Second says

      WTKTT,

      Thank you for once again using your sleuth skills to locate Dr. Putnam’s paper and post a very unique link for it.

      PLEASE TAKE THE TIME TO READ DR. PUTNAM’S PAPER AND WHAT HE HAS TO SAY ABOUT ACCIDENT AND FATALITY INVESTIGATIONS AND THE COVER-UPS THAT ARE A MAINSTAY OF THE OSTENSIBLE “FACTUAL” INVESTIGATIONS AND SAIRs!

      “Accident Investigation Concerns

      Although it seems obvious that accident investigations should strive to uncover the actual causes and conditions that led to the accident, this is seldom attempted let alone advocated in the relevant agency investigation guides used by wildland fire and other organizational (Airlines, NASA, Military, etc.) accident investigators. Failure to look for all discoverable causes and conditions leads to accident reports that are superficial in understanding or missing vital information on what really occurred as well as why it occurred. It is relevant for individuals and organizations to look at what accident guides investigations are focusing on compared to what
      they could and ought to be focusing on. Specifically, we ignore the impact of the individual’s cognitive processing on accident causation.”

      “Historically wildland fire entrapment investigations have operated with strong biases and typically left out entire quadrants of analysis, i.e. the cultural and intentional quadrants. Often these actions involve deceptive accounts but sometimes they involve misleading accounts. Why do people and agencies do this?”

      “From accounts of [1949] Mann Gulch the only person known to be at the bottom of Mann Gulch, about the time the “spot fire” ignited, was the district ranger as he himself testified. What is noteworthy is that only the district ranger was allowed to talk about the spot fires in the bottom of Mann Gulch. At the Board of Review hearing NO ONE WAS ALLOWED TO CONTRADICT OR QUESTION THE RANGER’S STORY.” (EMPHASIS ADDED)

      Unbelievable! THIS is the investigation where the “FIRST ESTABLISH A CONCLUSION, THEN FIND THE “FACTS” TO FIT IT” means of hiding the truth began resulting in a FULL cover=up.

      “A Fire Expert who wanted to observe the spot-fires’ origins was FORBIDDEN TO DO SO BY THE TEAM LEADER, since it was not in the scope of the investigation. In the case of the Board of Review it is what they ignore and don’t talk about that screams of a cover-up.” (EMPHASIS ADDED)

      “My summary points are that MANN GULCH WAS AN ELABORATE COVER-UP FROM THE START, did little to help future firefighters and mostly protected upper level managers and the Agency’s images. I invite readers to go back and take a more thorough look at the available evidence and to realize, like I have, that the Mann Gulch investigation set the pattern for later fatality investigations, namely that it is ok to cover-up the truth and blame firefighters and fire behavior than mental errors, cultures, managers or organizations. If our accident investigations don’t promote finding and telling the Truth then Lessons Learned, firefighter safety and High
      Reliability Organizations are just convenient buzz words; lullabies numbing us out rather than keeping us awake to underlying conditions and causal elements which best account for our collective firefighter realities.” (EMPHASIS ADDED)

      Dr. Putnam then goes on to discuss the partial cover-ups and whitewash of the 1994 South Canyon Fire and why he refused to sign the report.

      “Thus the South Canyon report has elements of deliberate cover-ups like Mann Gulch and elements of partial cover-ups, with the promise that another report is coming and “trust us to fix the problems later.” No later team report was written.”

      Dr. Putnam also reveals untold truths about the Alabaugh Canyon Fire (2007) in South Dakota that resulted in a fire shelter deployment and burns to two WFs and the Crandall Ranger Station tree felling accident in 2010.

      Dr. Putnam and I disagree on the value of the tried-and-true WF Rules, especially the “10 and 18.” I hold that they work every time you utilize the Ten Standard Orders and observe, recognize, and mitigate the 18 Watch Outs. Tens of thousands of WF and Supervisors successfully utilize the 10 and 18 every single fire season.

      After all, the fire signals to you what it is going to do — every time.

      • Gary Olson says

        Yes, thank you WTKTT.

        And I never stated this specifically in my meandering diatribe down below, but the reason, and the only reason, the Battlement Creek Fire Staff Ride Developement Committee was nasty to me while Shawna was so sweet to me, because she is such a smooth operator, is because I started insisting they were on the wrong track with the lessons that should have been learned from the Battlement Crrpreek Fire and they were in the early stages of designing a Staff Ride based on factually incorrect information.

        Shawna wasn’t the only whore (non gender specific) on that committee, every one of them were agency and system whores (non gender specific), Shawna was just the Whore-In-Charge (WIC), which was of course is non gender specific. The non gender specific whores were her henchmen who did her dirty work while she treated me with kindness and respect as she humored me right up to the point of telling the truth about the Battlement Creek Fire.

        And what is really, really, neat…is the fact I re-read my “Smoking Gun” document the other day that proves the Battlement Creek Fire Investigative Report was a cover up, and it also proves I came right out of the starting gate advocating to have the true story told during the Staff Ride.

        And when you read the Smoking Gun document, please keep in mind that although it is specifically is about the Battlement Creek Fire, it is an proof and therefore an indictment of how corrupt the entire system is because it is run by fire gods who are WIC’s who have corrupt hearts and intent.

        Not corrupt intent in the sense they are directly receiving things of value for their systemic corruption and gross mismanagement from outside sources, their unethical pay offs come in the form of promotions and other related benefits that even their retirement in based on, so they are whores until death.

        I need to go back through my records and find their names and post them here on this thread as part of the historical record of the people who have blood on their hands from the Yarnell Hill Fire.

        Speaking of having bloody hands, I can’t help but wonder if I have blood on my hands as well? Could I have done more to force them to tell the truth, should I have done that instead of resigning from that committee? Am I complicit in the deaths of the Granite Mountain Hotshots? Of course I am…not only did I resign from that corrupt committee rather than stay and fight, I helped build that entire corrupt system, I was on of those who were “in” as the Woodsman wrote.

        • Gary Olson says

          Oh…and one more thing. The last meeting I had with BLM State Director, (who is the equivelant of a Regional Forester in the USFS) was regarding how to handle a felony investigation of a mining company operating on your Public Lands that I had been supervising.

          So…what did I do after the meeting instead of calling “60 Minutes?” I went out with the Case Agent who was assigned to conduct the investigation and I instructed him to dig a hole. And then together and under my direction, we buried one more body for the BLM.

          When I went to work for the BLM, we agreed on what I was, the only thing left for us to negotiate was which specific acts was willing to perform and for how much money.

          #Complicit

          • Gary Olson says

            Except I wasn’t in the situation poor FBI Special Agent Andy McCabe was in and 24 hours from retirement when they got him, I had a,ready reached full retirement age several years earlier, my finish line was artificially imposed by me.

            But…when the BLM tried to find mental health professionals to find me unfit for duty, I was several years short of making it to my minimum retirement age and if they would have been successful, I would have been fired because my guns, credentials and Top Secret Security Clearance all would have been permanently taken away from me instead of just during my testing period.

            I’m telling you straight up…the BLM has mostly .world class motherfuckers running that sorry agency because like I said, they are political appointees. Although some USFS managers can come close, even though they are career professionals who came up through the ranks. At some point, everyone who goes any higher has to be willing to at least compromise their integrity at least som of the time…am I right Mr. Mike Dudley? 🙂

          • Woodsman says

            Yes, Gary, you’re complicit. That’s the bad news. The good news is you are MORE than making up for it by having the brass ones to tell the truth. Hell, I don’t think you even knew the truth until much later when you had the time to really take it all in. If it makes you feel better I wasn’t able to see the truth until recently myself. We get caught up in the system until one day we say to ourselves, ” hey! Wait just a fucking minute! DO WHAT??” I’m as guilty as you are, friend. We are awake now. That’s one of the primary reasons why I’m so pissed off. We’ve been had.

            RTS is guilty too. We are responsible. BUT, it’s never too late to make a change. We got this….together. Technology has increased our odds for success.

            Now back to my anger management therapy.

            THE Woodsman

            • Gary Olson says

              No…when I started this “journey” more than five years ago, I primarily blamed Darrell Willis and the Prescott Fire Department. Now I understand they are just symptons of the disease, not the disease themselves.

              And to quote the comic strip Pogo, “We have met the enemy and he is us.”

              I honestly and truly believe that if we can finally admit what was really primarily responsible for the hotshots deaths on the Loop, Battlement Creek and Yarnell Hill Fires, it really will make a huge difference in whether the fourth hotshot disaster ever occurs.

              Hotshots will still be killed and seriously hurt on fires due to inherently dangerous circumstances like occurred on the South Canyon Fires and the tragic tree strikes, which sounds like they were certainly preventable deaths.

              On a side note, most hotshot sawyers aren’t really professional fallers, especially when falling really big trees under complex conditions. The men who are really trained and experienced to do that highly technical work come as contractors from the logging industry who have thousands of hours of experience and on the job training in falling. Hotshots sawyers get a lot of saw time, but most of isnt actually dropping trees, especially the really big ones.

              But like so many other things on this thread, those are side issues. They are very important issues, like “How Big Is Big Enough”, but they aren’t the primary issues here.

              Admitting you have a problem…we all know is the first step in correcting that problem. We have a problem….let’s take steps to correct it!

            • Woodsman says

              To expand on my statement, it’s not a simple process of placing each other in the appropriate “box” labeled COMPLICIT or NON-COMPLICIT as my words may be interpreted. We are all located somewhere on the spectrum of complicity, from very little to “all in.” It can be logically argued that even ‘civilians’ share complicity in fireline fatalities. When you examine people’s expectations of firefighters in protection of the forest resource and minimizing the impacts to private property, it simply must be considered by any rational human.

              Using myself as an example, on July 28, 2002 I was on a crew as a basic firefighter near Happy Camp, CA engaged in the Stanza fire. 3 USFS engine crew members lost their lives when their engine lost traction at the edge of the road and rolled down the mountain. There were many causal factors to this accident. Has it bothered me since that night? You DAMN STRAIGHT it has! Even as an FFT2 (basic) I knew at the time of the hazard of that section of road due to the width, surface, and trouble with traffic on it. Adding smoke and darkness, it’s identified hazards killed three good people because management wasn’t sharp enough to change the way firefighters were using that section of road. BUT, I was a brand new guy, what the heck do I know? Double-BUT, I didn’t speak up other than to my crew boss. I certainly didn’t do everything in my power to stop it and it 100% could have and should have been stopped.

              It takes time and experience for firefighters to build the toolbox that allows them to SEE…not merely observe but SEE! Until most gain this, through time spent on the line, we MUST rely on leadership to SEE FOR US and not merely OBSERVE!!!! Not only that, they must speak up about it and change how we are operating in the fire environment in response to the visual factors identified in the changing nature of wildfires.

              Too many put their own self interests first as considerations for money, advancement, and to GO ALONG TO GET ALONG. The non-boat rockers possess something or things that are apparently more important than doing the right thing even though it may mean negative consequences personally. I’ve believed for a tragically long period of time that, as a wildfifre community, when it comes to safety: WE TALK THE TALK BUT WE DON’T WALK THE WALK!!! This must change or more will die in the future in similar incidents due to the human factors of sub-standard decision-making under stress.

              So what does it take to effect real change in the business of wildland firefighting in the US? Courage and SELFLESSNESS!!! It takes people with their head on straight who have the intestinal fortitude to be able to tell management to shove it, “the people I’m responsible for ARE NOT going to do that!” In other words it takes the individual to first change themselves and others will follow. (thank you Mr. P)

              In summary, the claim I made that you, me, RTS, and nearly everyone in this business is complicit in covering up after accidents is a very complicated matter. We should ask each other: “What are we DOING or NOT DOING to make wildland firefighting more likely to be accident free while providing an efficient service to the taxpayers when it comes to wildfires in the US?”

              What are you doing to prevent injury/deaths on the fireline? What have you NOT done about it? Why? Give yourself an honest self-assessment. We have become specialists at lying to ourselves! We’ve got that down pat!

              If you are responsible for others as a fireline leader, and you have concrete evidence of serial cover-ups by management in nearly every single major fireline accident investigation (and if you don’t by now, you must be brain dead or blinded by indoctrination into the system), what are you going to do about it? How will you go about making sure the people you are responsible for are safe on and off the line?

              One more thing: the word “SAFE.” Maybe it has become over-utilized and by default a cliche’. “Let’s be safe out there!” ” Safety first every fire every time!” I propose we change it to PROTECTION of our people. My last sentence above should read:

              How will you go about making sure the people you are responsible for are PROTECTED from harm on and off the line?

              Woodsman

              • Woodsman says

                …And it is a monumental barrier to learning when “management” doesn’t allow firefighters to actually learn from fatality investigations due to the rampant conspiracy to commit fraud by explicit burial of the real causes of fireline deaths by the investigation teams. Incidentally, these investigation teams are always packed full of the types of personnel Gary refers to as fire god or those on the fast-track to fire god status…those who would sell their own grandmother in order to preserve their paycheck, status and retirement funds for the future. Selfish and sick bastards… every last one of them!

                • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

                  Reply to Woodsman post
                  on April 3, 2018 at 9:07 am

                  >> Woodsman said…
                  >>
                  >> It is a monumental barrier to learning when
                  >> “management” doesn’t allow firefighters to
                  >> actually learn from fatality investigations
                  >> due to the rampant conspiracy to commit
                  >> fraud by explicit burial of the real causes
                  >> of fireline deaths

                  Monumental is right.

                  It’s as if the Airline Pilots Association is the only agency allowed to “investigate” airplane crashes.

                  As Gary has already pointed out… if that were the case then planes would be falling out of the sky and the only ‘explanation’ the grieving family members would be getting is “Flying is inherently dangerous. Get over it.”

                  At some point the responsibility for investigating Wildland fireline deaths has to be taken AWAY from the U.S. and State level Forestry agencies.

                  The argument that “We’re the only ones who understand what we do so we are the only ones qualified to investigate” is, and always has been, total bullshit.

                  The investigations must be TRULY ‘independent’.

                  As you and Gary have now both said…

                  Not just to LOOK… but to truly SEE.

              • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

                Reply to Woodsman post on April 3, 2018 at 8:57 am

                >> Woodsman said…
                >>
                >> To expand on my statement… ( snip )

                Incredibly well said.

                Thank you.

                • Woodsman says

                  Your welcome. We have become experts at facade construction & replaced potential progress with extreme energy spent in the program of “covering the bases.” That’s why we have a Lessons Learned Center where the real lessons are not shared at all. It’s a sham.

                  • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

                    ‘Facade’. Good word.

                    Describes the situation perfectly.

                    ——————————————————–
                    fa·cade
                    fəˈsäd/
                    noun
                    noun: facade; plural noun: facades; noun: façade; plural noun: façades

                    An outward appearance that is maintained to conceal a less pleasant or creditable reality.
                    ——————————————————-

  3. Gary Olson says

    There is some confusion as to what I think of Eric Marsh. So…just to be clear, I don’t believe Mr. Marsh was a murderer. I do however, firmly believe Mr. Marsh was clearly guilty of 17 counts of manslaughter according to Arizona State law.

    I believe that because I can read and comprehend the English language at a competent level. If you can do the same, then either you will agree with me, or you are a person who lives in denial and wants the world to be as you want it to be, rather than how it really is.

    Now…both the police and prosecutors have enormous duscreation, we can even say they have complete discretion, as to whether to investigate and subsequently charge a person with any crime or not. But just because a person is never charged with a crime, certainly does not mean they are not guilty of that crime, it just means they are lucky or beyond the reach of the law…like being dead.

    I am also a reasonable person, so if anyone can read the following law and explain why Mr. Marsh is not guilty of 17 counts of manslaughter, I would certainly like to read it. Othwise, there is no doubt in my mind, nor should there be any doubt in yours, that the acts of both Mr. Marsh and Jesse Steed leading up to the deaths of their crew clearly and squarely meet the very definition of, “Recklessly causing the death of another person.”

    If knowingly and deliberately violating almost all of the rules and guidelines of wildland firefighting safety at the same against repeated warnings isn’t reckless, then I don’t know what reckless is? I didn’t write the law, shooting the messenger won’t change the facts…or the law.

    https://www.azleg.gov/ars/13/01103.htm

    13-1103. Manslaughter; classification

    A. A person commits manslaughter

    1. Recklessly causing the death of another person; or

    2. Committing second degree murder as prescribed in section 13-1104, subsection A upon a sudden quarrel or heat of passion resulting from adequate provocation by the victim; or

    3. Intentionally providing the physical means that another person uses to commit suicide, with the knowledge that the person intends to commit suicide; or

    4. Committing second degree murder as prescribed in section 13-1104, subsection A, paragraph 3, while being coerced to do so by the use or threatened immediate use of unlawful deadly physical force upon such person or a third person which a reasonable person in his situation would have been unable to resist; or

    5. Knowingly or recklessly causing the death of an unborn child by any physical injury to the mother.

    B. An offense under subsection A, paragraph 5 of this section applies to an unborn child in the womb at any stage of its development. A person shall not be prosecuted under subsection A, paragraph 5 of this section if any of the following applies:

    1. The person was performing an abortion for which the consent of the pregnant woman, or a person authorized by law to act on the pregnant woman’s behalf, has been obtained or for which the consent was implied or authorized by law.

    2. The person was performing medical treatment on the pregnant woman or the pregnant woman’s unborn child.

    3. The person was the unborn child’s mother.

    C. Manslaughter is a class 2 felony.

    • Gary Olson says

      Oh…and one more thing. The confusion regarding what I think of Eric Marsh is coming straight from Amanda, so I would like to take this opportunity to repeat other things I have also written in the past.

      1. If I were with Eric now, I would hug him and we would cry together, but only after I had slapped the bitch (non gender specific) out of him. I have also written that I identify with Eric because I was a deeply flawed hotshot crew boss as well and fought my own demons…just like he did.

      2. The data points I can see now and the threads that run between all three hotshot disaster fires, the Loop, the Battlement Creek and the Yarnell Hill Fire clearly reveal to me that Eric was also a victim and hero of that cursed fire, even though he was a deeply flawed hero of a corrupt and grossly mismanaged system.

      Although the “Smoking Gun” I am in possession of, is directly related to the Battlement Creek Fire, it is evidence against and an indictment of the entire system led by people like Mike Dudley and Shawna Legarza who have sold their souls for professional advancement at the cost of hotshot lives in the past, as well as those in the future.

      I know this because as I have written many times, once is an anomonly (the Loop Fire Of 1966), twice is a coincidence (the Battlement Creek Fire Of 1976) but three times (the Yarnell Hill Fire Of 2013) is a pattern, so it will happen again. It’s only a matter of when…not if.

      And if management would have done the right thing after the Loop and Battlement Creek Fires, would the Yarnell Hill Fire have been avoided? I don’t know for sure, but one thing I do know, is that Darrell Willis told me that he was a student of the Battlement Creek Fire and I know Eric and his crew studied past disaster fires that certainly included both the Loop and Battlement Creek Fires.

      The only problem with that, is that Darrell and Eric were studying the fake lessons and lies from the Battlement Creek Fire Staff Ride because after I told Shawna the truth and what needed to be studied, she thanked me for my interest, but informed she would be following the official accident report anyway. This, even though the two former hotshots, who were also Subject Matter Experts (SME) who had also been on the Battlement Creek Fire with me, told her the very same things I did at the same time.

      This was in addition to Dr. Ted Putnam, who was not only an SME on the same staff ride because he had been a sector boss on the Battlement Creek Fire, he had been part of the Battlement Creek Fire Serious Accident Investigation Team (although it went by a different name) and he knew the report had been a cover up full of lies and he told Shawn’s Legarza the very same things we did, but she ignored him as well.

      Like I said, I don’t know how much of a difference it would have made if the true lessons from the Battlement Creek Fire would have been learned, but if those lessons had been studied together with the true lessons that could have been learned from the Loop Fire instead of their lies…maybe the Yarnell Hill Fire would just be one more successfully fought and forgotten wildfire? Whatever those odds would have been…I would have gratefully taken them, wouldn’t you have done the same?

      So…I’m sorry Amanda, but this isn’t about the dead hotshots of the past, it’s about the living Hotshots of the future. If you want to help, please let me know and we can work together to save the lives of all of the wildland firefighters of today and tomorrow, not just our beloved hotshots.

      • Joy A Collura says

        I can write a novel reply Gary yet all I am going to state to the world is when you ask for foias or public records…YOU FOLKS who contacted these entities tied to a govt email or cell (TEXTS) thinking it was private (THINK AGAIN-) may you been an investigator or a grieving loved one or whomever you are—- thank you because your personal or govt cell that called or texted these folks showed me who is who in this and I can confirm Gary if you gained such data boy you would have a field day on that- RTS too and as well a few others…Sad screwy world we live in when this site is labelled as the lead component for their current problems when there is no other area where you can freely share. Sad huh. I mean you can freely share at the local bars…I am sorry Rocksteady and Diane are not able to post…

        CALLING JOHN DOUGHERTY…new chapter please! We know you visited recently John—

        http://www.investigativemedia.com/trumps-former-attorney-john-dowd-petitioned-clinton-to-pardon-former-arizona-governor/

        • Gary Olson says

          Everyone should be able to post. I don’t think it is the size of the chapter, I think it is the anti spam thing a ma jig, you just need to be patient, save your work and then hit he back arrow, and then the forward arrow, once or twice, back and forth, you might even have to close all of the way out and log in again, but if your work is saved, it doesn’t matter, it just takes some time. It is a pain in the ass, but hey…we get to post here and share our thoughts with the world! So…

  4. Joy A Collura says

    Gary, the Heckler & Koch 27 is not a battle rifle and does not have the punch or the distance. It just takes the place of the M-249 but it is lighter. Basically a heavy barreled M-4 with a piston driven bolt.

    I would marry my Grendel if it was allowed…6.5 Grendel would still be alot better than 5.56

    the .300 blackout is useless after 300 yard Gary- it drops like a rock

    Gary said God Bless America and Our Troops! Somebodies children are dying and suffering life long injuries, including PTSD for the rest of us.

    THAT ALSO CAN BE STATED FOR THE FIRE INDUSTRY NOT JUST THE TROOPS GARY

    Gary, we were right to be there at Vietnam but the Generals should of fought the war not the politicians—oh and again much like the fire industry…war then would of been over in 2 years…

    this is a broken promise me being here but I am not talking fire data and the end of that talk did not go to a healing as I had wished for so I am here but not for fire stuff just the love of educating on guns since Gary is well rounded in his view I like to always put a twist on it but not late at night; at dinner time (wink) (NUMBA 10 please),
    I love talking guns and politics and numismatics.

    • Gary Olson says

      Yes…but in Arizona you couldn’t marry your Grendel unless it is a male Grendel.

      And I guess we are just going to have to agree to disagree on our particular choice of firearms, but I do respect your opinion, especially since you are…you know…a chick. :). But I am going to have to take a hard look at the .300 Blackout ballistics. I will admit…I didn’t do that.

      Actually, I misstated what I said about Vietnam. I am sure we didn’t belong there, but I think I did (paraphrased from “Full Metal Jacket”).

      I am pretty good at compartmentaling things and I can put the morality of that war and many of our other wars of choice in one box and the courage and valor of those who fought them in another box.

      That is one way I survived working for the federal govt. for 30 years in the jobs I had, I could compartmentalized “things.” These shitbags like Mike Dudley have to be pretty good at it to or they couldn’t look at themselves in the mirror.

      The Vets taught me how to do that in the aftermath of the Battlement Creek Fire. We didn’t miss a beat and joked about WF who got burned over as being “ Crispy Critters”; which was another Vietnam term I think.

      They didn’t need to take us out of rotation for the rest of the entire fuckin’ season. It cost us a lot of lost fire money and we weren’t living in that barracks and showering in a communal shower because we liked each other. Wildland firefighting is first and foremost about making extra money, overtime, hazard pay, double time on holidays in addition to nighttime and Sunday differential, etc. no tree huggers need apply. The only good tree is on the back of a logging truck and sometimes you have to burn down the forest in order to save it.

      • Gary Olson says

        Joy,

        I have been thinking about it and I don’t think I have to check the ballistics on the .300 Blackout because I don’t think it matters if it drops like a rock at 300 yards, we are talking about a battle rifle…not a sniper rifle. And I think in both LE and with the military, those are considered to be effective out to only about 100 yards. I guess after that, you could use Kentucky windage?

        As far as the HK 27, it’s advantage is that it is built around a completely different operating system and keeping the M4 and it’s ariations clean enough to operate without jamming has been an issue from day one in Vietnam.

        Not for LE and most sport shooters because I think it takes thousands of rounds to start causing problems and I think they see something like one malfunction every 600 or 700 rounds and LE just doesn’t shoot them that much, I guess the military does?

        In any case, the HK 27 eliminates the entire issue, as do the Sig Sauer assault rifles with the new and improved operating systems, so I want one (HK 27) and in a .556 because like I said before, a heavier bullet is academic to me because our culture is built around the cheaper NATO round.

        And you know when the Zombie Apocalypse comes and we have to raid the National Guard Armories in order to survive, we are going to want to be able to shoot NATO rounds, so…

        • Gary Olson says

          Hey Joy,

          What do you think of the HK MP5? I hated it because it definitely wasn’t a battle rifle, so I switched to an HK 53.

          But even though we have MP 5’s in this realistic training video, we also have some bitchin’ Hueys with some great sound effects from those big beautiful and magnificent machines, but it also comes with a really bitchin’ sound track personally selected by me. Enjoy!

          https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=56Zs9BKHpP8

          • Joy A Collura says

            Hey Gary- when I was younger I knew HOW MANY RBIs and TDs completed and I even tried to keep up with all the guys who counted all the tail fins and the hood ornaments back to the 40’s…but who’s dating me that far back…the bottom line “who gives a shit”…I know nowadays not many do…back to joining your boat you sailed on…have a good night. I know mine won’t be so swell yet it is the right thing to do…so if there is any of you out there debating if you should just keep the YHF data details to yourself please remember sharing is the right thing to do…what I am about to share to someone tonight will shift my life forever but it’s the right thing to do…so yeah Gary sorry but not a solid phase in my life to be cutting it up with you. I am in prayer mode. God Bless-

            • Gary Olson says

              It’s okay, I already know what you think of a gun that can’t drop a man like a rock at 300 yards and beyond, it ain’t worth having. And I agree with you, So…

          • Joy A Collura says

            What do I think
            of the 1960s technology- MP5?!?!

            It was good for swat teams and anti terrorism units but was never designed to be a battle rifle.

            I’m glad you switched to the short barrel 5.56…less over penetration…with the right ammo 😉

            Great video sir

            I like the old army helicopters…the hueys…

            I still enjoy the ride it like you stole it one…or take the wheel one….

            you know for us folks who others claim as “crazy” or “not right”…in all reality there has to be something said because we are at least raw and pure and say it as we see it may it not always be the proper way to express…yet what is the proper ways nowadays…I know Gary you are thinking hmmm… “AI”…aka WTKTT ;)…he is all proper…so proper one has to think if we are on the set of the Wizard of Oz…who stands behind that curtain, eh? 😉

            I just spent a good hour earlier being very pure on a topic I thought was going to lead to a shift yet I walk away scratching my head…like a chimpanzee Gary. I think I even scratched under my arm pit. I do not want to keep this up- trying to do no more late night pop-ons but wanted to thumbs up the aerial shot videos—wonder what Rocksteady thought of it…He had to love it…

              • Joy A Collura says

                Particularly, when statistics are involved right Gary—the determination of what constitutes a credible fact (and what does not) can contain elements of personal subjectivity. Isn’t it our mission to minimize subjective information and to provide highly factual content or is that just wtktt’s area. Therefore- I just got notified you were writing my name on IM so I ended up over here but I was not even reading here lately…been training…I recently Gary attended ARIZONA WILDFIRE ACADEMY and I am now a long term student of fire—what’s your views on that…(do not answer rocksteady…or you Norb…or you RTS…) I just wonder what Gary thinks because the last I knew you called me what on my 40 day fast and I am still here…I lost more weight this week then I did on the 40 day fast being treated for strep A with antibiotics even though it came back zero and I did come back + with tonsillitis and pharyngitis- ugh so on their dang meds…

                leave you with some trivia:

                “American Sniper” Chris Kyle’s longest confirmed kill, at 1.2 miles, was made using this rifle?

                SINCE IT IS SO LATE I WILL GIVE YOU
                A B C D CHOICES -OK….
                a. Mk-12 5.56mm
                b. .338-caliber Lapua
                c. .50-caliber Accuracy International AS50
                d. L42A1 Enfield 7.62mm

                if you guessed “B”…then try this one on for size….Tommy Gun”, the M1 Thompson shoots what bullet?

                .45 acp

                AK-47 shoots what bullet?

                Actually when the AK-47 was being tested in the mid 1940s the bullet shells were so top secret that after firing they were collected and reloaded or destroyed.

                where were you Gary when you “first saw” your first desert eagle and could a .44 mag be chambered in one?

                I was in Chandler Arizona when one of the Phoenix Suns Player was taking me to my doctor appt then we chilled by pool side and as I went up their spiral stairs where all the awards laid and the pool table was on 2nd level he showed me his collection and I thought “hell no” I’m not gonna touch another man’s weapon I hardly know…right 😉 Man, thank God I did not…tell you why in person…but I did like seeing that toilet spray water up at his place…that was another first to my life…I learned what a bidet was that day…

                Life is surely funny

                Happy Easter World

                https://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=https%3A%2F%2Ftomfernandez28.files.wordpress.com%2F2013%2F12%2Fscreen-shot-2013-12-23-at-6-13-01-pm.png&imgrefurl=https%3A%2F%2Ftomfernandez28.com%2F2013%2F12%2F24%2Fdear-god-where-did-we-go-wrong%2F&docid=qVHduOV5xPBUYM&tbnid=CLt_qoFnrnZZAM%3A&vet=12ahUKEwjet_WdypjaAhUJ2GMKHWiMA6E4ZBAzKB0wHXoECAAQHg..i&w=2014&h=988&bih=760&biw=1536&q=god%20created%20man%20sam%20colt%20made%20them%20equal&ved=2ahUKEwjet_WdypjaAhUJ2GMKHWiMA6E4ZBAzKB0wHXoECAAQHg&iact=mrc&uact=8

                https://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=https%3A%2F%2Fimage.spreadshirtmedia.com%2Fimage-server%2Fv1%2Fmp%2Fcompositions%2FP1012440574T812A231MPC1020611413PA1663PT17X19Y34D1008449835S59%2Fviews%2F1%2Cwidth%3D1200%2Cheight%3D630%2CappearanceId%3D231%2CbackgroundColor%3DE8E8E8%2Cversion%3D1515071979%2Fgod-made-man-samuel-colt-made-em-equal-men-s-premium-t-shirt.jpg&imgrefurl=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.spreadshirt.com%2Fgod%2Bmade%2Bman%2Bsamuel%2Bcolt%2Bmade%2Bem%2Bequal-A105671288&docid=keIwt2AXapOq0M&tbnid=sMoE2xPnOmycmM%3A&vet=10ahUKEwiM34OyypjaAhVI2GMKHX0DDYMQMwhnKDUwNQ..i&w=1200&h=630&bih=760&biw=1536&q=god%20created%20man%20sam%20colt%20made%20them%20equal%20sam%20colt&ved=0ahUKEwiM34OyypjaAhVI2GMKHX0DDYMQMwhnKDUwNQ&iact=mrc&uact=8

                • Gary Olson says

                  Okay…okay…okay, Joy, you know more about guns and calibers, ballistics and gun trivia than anyone I have ever known and wayyyy more than me. And that bothers me…just a little bit. Say…when is the last time you had a psychological examination and passed it?

                  I had two of them in the late 90’s because there were some managers in the BLM who questioned my psychological fitness for duty. But I aced both of them and then I was the only person I knew that had not one…but two certifications I was mentally squared away and I think I was wayyyy more sane than most of the BLM Ring Masters who ran that fuckin’ CIRCUS!

                  And even though I am working on my MOAP that will show just how bad USFS managers were, even FIRE managers, (I mean…how do you think I came up with the title for my book anyway? I didn’t pull, “Betrayed By Our Fire God’s” out of thin air) all of them were bush league compared to the Major League players who ran the BLM.

                  And if you want to know why (of course you do) all, or almost all the top managers in the USFS are career employees, all, or almost all top managers in the BLM are political appointees and most of them come straight from the industries they are supposed to be regulating while they give away the candy store…your candy store.

                  And that included both Republican and Democratic administrations although the Republican ones were wayyyy worse. I worked under the Nixon, Ford, Carter, Reagan, Bush 41, Clinton and Bush Fuck Up administrations, so I know.

                  I shudder to think what it is like now under the Spawn Of Satan’ Adminisration. It has to be like drunken school children raiding the candy store with Pukaski’s.

                  But hey…elections have consequences and barring a thermo nuclear war, our country will survive and somebody will be there to pick up the pieces. I’m just glad I won’t be one of them this time.

                  I mean…you can disagree with me all you want about politics, as most of you fire dogs do, but there isn’t any doubt the Democrats are better for land management agencies and the enviroment than Republicans. But if that isn’t your hot button issue…that’s cool with me, I don’t like electric cars anyway.

                  True story. When I went to the Battlement Creek Fire Staff Ride, I said I would only go if they would also send both of my two old friends who had been on the Battlement Creek Fire with me. Those other bastards on the committee were being pretty nasty to me and I wanted some back up, so they agreed to my demand. Both of them were still USFS employees, one in Alaska and one in Montana so it was easy for them to do…expensive, but easy.

                  Anyway, one of them was my old sawyer partner (he ran first saw and I ran the number two saw, in other words…he was THE crew sawyer) who had been jumpin’ out of Missoula since he left the crew 30 years earlier.

                  Wow…this is a long story with very little pay off, but here we go. When we went the first day to go meet Shawna Legarza for lunch so she could tell us she was going to sell out the WF as a management hack and we walked out to the parking lot where my car was parked, which was a Honda Accord Hybrid (I never made that mistake again) he stopped short…spread out his arms and exclaimed in dismay, “Where do you put your FIREWOOD!”

                  Notice how I did that, complimented Joy and then immediately pivoted to fuck with BLM managers, USFS managers, politicians in general and Republicans in particular and nailed Shawn’s yet again for selling her soul to get to the top of the USFS FIRE program.

                  Athough she did make it all of the way to the top, which is pretty damn impressive for an ex hotshot crew boss And I did all of that while spinning a yarn as cover. I love being an old guy…except for the old part.

                  • Gary Olson says

                    Oh…and brag about myself yet again. Although I’m not sure bragging that I got sent in for two Fitness For Duty psychological examinations is something MOST people would brag about?

                    Those BLM managers thought I must be crazy to fuck with them as much as I did. But nope…I was a SANE person just trying to cope while working inside an INSANE agency. It really was a good thing I knew where so many bodies were buried (because I had buried most of them or at least dug the holes) or I never would have made it to the finish line. 🙂

                    • Gary Olson says

                      Oh…those BLM managers didn’t like the results of the first tests..so the bastards sent me in for another set of tests with another whole different set of both psychologists and psychiatrist doctors in a different state.

                      Those BLM managers were some real motherfuckers…but hey, it’s all behind me now!

                      And you can tell I never even think about more than in the morning, the afternoon and always at night. Talk about PTSD…I have PTSD just from trying to be a good employee in a really bad agency.

                    • Gary Olson says

                      Okay…I’m on a roll. The very first “one on one” meeting I went to with a BLM State Director just a few short months after I went to work for them as a Special Agent. I went in…sat there for a few minutes while he kept writing

                      Finally he looked up and said, “Gary…….long pregnant pause, you do good work but…..another really long pregnant pause…you leave too many bodies on the trail.”

                      And then he went back to writing and I finally got up and walked out of his big corner office.

                      The very last meeting I went to with a BLM State Director (and the entire state management team including the Associate State Director) when the meeting was over and everyone was starting to pick up their notebooks etc., the Associate State Director looked at me and said, “What are you going to do now Gary…call 60 Minutes?”

                      And I was so proud of myself…I replied without missing a beat, “No Carl…I know how the game is played.”

                      I didn’t think that hill was worth risking dying on yet again… mostly because I was so close to the finish line.

                    • Gary Olson says

                      Oh…and one more thing. It’s no wonder I went to the epicanthic border to work as much as I could.

                      The people I met there were a lot better class of people than I met in BLM Management Team meetings.

                      Those managers were some real motherfuckers, whoops, starting to repeat myself…again. I love being an old man…except for the old part.

                    • Gary Olson says

                      Epicanthic…what the fuck does that even mean Apple Automatic Spell Correct?

                      “MEXICAN Border”

                    • Gary Olson says

                      Whoops…I should have written that everyone on the Battlement Creek Fire Staff Ride Developement Committee were nasty to me except for the Chairperson of that committee, the San Juan Hotshot Crew Boss Shawna Legarza.

                      Shawna treated me with kindness and respect and humored me as much as she possibly could, right up to the point of telling the truth about what really happened on the Battlement Creek Fire.

                      The rest of the committee were all, or almost all, ex hotshot crew bosses who were in certified fire god level jobs at that point in their careers with grand titles.

                      Talk about about some really big egos, that bunch made me look as humble as Fred…almost. Their only problem was I had been beaten like a rented mule by some top shelf BLM managers who were some real motherfuckers for the previous 18 years, so none of those little bitches (non gender specific) intimidated or impressed me.

                      And needless to say, they didn’t think I belonged there and although their yapping and whining didn’t intimidate me, it did irritate me and since I was retiring, I was wayyyy over being irritated by a bunch of little bitches (non gender specific) so I resigned from Shawna’s committee.

                      I was really surprised that a lowly hotshot crew boss was ramrod for that bunch of ego driven arrogant bastards full of hubris, until I figured out Shawna had been identified for greatness wayyyyy early in her career.

                      And after I met her I understood why. Shawna was highly educated, intelligent, motivated, driven and squared away. And most of all, she was a really nice person who was politically savvy and very smooth. I could see why she was going far….and I’ll be damned, I was right. But just to be clear, being a woman certainly didn’t hurt her, but she had all of the boxes checked to get were she is at.

                      So….do I feel like a no good rat snitch bastard for doing what I am doing? Nope…like I have written many times. I’m not here to make friends or expand my Christmas Card List. If you can’t do the time…don’t do the crime.

                      And now it’s my turn…I control what I write here and elsewhere. Pay back is a real BITCH, (non gender specific).

                  • Gary Olson says

                    Oh…and one more thing, I am very well aware that very few of you if any, are particularly interested in what happened on the Battlement Creek Fire or the Loop Fire.

                    You are interested in what happened on the Yarnell Hill Fire as I am. BUT…here is where my connecting data points and common threads between all of those fires come in.

                    IF…the truth would have been told about the Loop Fire and IF…the truth would have been told about the Battlement Crrek Fire, then maybe…just maybe, however small the chance would have been, maybe the Yarnell Hill Hill Fire would just be one more forgotten fire by now, you know…except for those people directly impacted by it like the residents of Yarnell etc.

                    Have you noticed I quit throwing rocks at the Prescott Fire Department years ago? And have now quit bitchin’ about Hybrid Firefighters (I leave that task to the Woodsman) I can see clearly now what the real problem is.

                    And it isn’t the Prescott Fire Department or Hybrid Fitefighters, it is a systemic failure and a refusal by the entire fuckin’ wildland firefighting complex to be honest with themselves or anyone else.

                    Like I have written several times…thank God the National Trasportation Safety Board isn’t like them or none of us would be any safer now traveling by air or common carrier than we were when the NTSB was first formed.

              • Joy A Collura says

                TO REPLY ON THESE:
                Gary Olson says
                MARCH 30, 2018 AT 11:11 AM
                Wow…you really do know guns and stuff about them
                ————————
                Gary Olson says
                APRIL 1, 2018 AT 1:18 PM
                Okay…okay…okay, Joy, you know more about guns and calibers, ballistics and gun trivia than anyone I have ever known and wayyyy more than me. And that bothers me…just a little bit. Say…when is the last time you had a psychological examination and passed it?….Notice how I did that, complimented Joy and then immediately pivoted to fuck with BLM managers, USFS managers, politicians in general and Republicans in particular and nailed Shawn’s yet again for selling her soul to get to the top of the USFS FIRE program.
                ——————————

                JOY’S REPLY:

                I will appease your distraction techniques Gary….

                and reply below-

                yet we do know most skim you and me when they come here when we talk this stuff because they figure

                there they go again those two

                so let’s think of something good this time around…got anything?

                I don’t.

                Happy April Fool’s Day

                and

                Happy Easter!

                Very apropos that this would come up on Easter Sunday Gary about “crazy”

                They also thought Jesus was crazy

                to the point that they were willing to crucify him for speaking the Truth.

                And even in their ignorance Jesus still said forgive them for they know not what they do.

                I look at it this way Gary…look at how many truly celebrate Easter for its pure definitions versus the commercial end of it…

                have you ever went to church and saw Mr. Norton snoring away during a sermon?

                is it the modus operandi and that it is very routine? uninteresting? Is the Holy Spirit not in that sanctuary or is it so much so it puts you so relaxed you nod off? How does one get the requisite skills of passing the message to us the people from Above and how many get the best messages while asleep? Does it have to always happen in a church? One man who is older than the mountain said he thought it was his weekly nap hour and would awake ‘God, be merciful to me, a sinner!’

                I love politics and I love talking religion…

                I do not get scared away

                like one side of my family trained me to be a lover to the government and the Govt’ wants and needs for me- that never happened Gary— I am free as they come and I do not see that changing…that is where I do not see me yet fitting in to your certain parts to the industry

                now my new industry too as a student to fire…I might have to earn my way through and not be able to ride the gravy promotion trains—

                I am not a bacteria egg as one named their brother recently and I am not a trashy bunch of lizard shit either- She is getting up in her age and high up in the Mormon church but she sure has a way with words…but most people of Faith do 😉

                back to the guns because all this other talk is making me sad I do not have a place to worship Him just in my heart…sooooooo

                the .300 blackout is not a new cartridge

                It came out in the late 80s and was designed to shoot with a sound suppressor and was called the .300 whisper and designed for hunting up to 200 yards quietly and why it was called whisperer and never meant to be a war fighting battle cartridge for wild boars and such. Its fat and slow…like me. They do load it faster but it still performs worse than a 7.62 x39 AK bullet
                AK round is still better

                As for the grendel and why I would marry it over man …the most distance and energy out of a standard AR. Most bang. Meaning power Gary. The grendel would never leave my side and makes me feel equal.

                You have the right to keep and arm bears Gary….I mean bear arms…or is it bare arms?

                https://www.google.com/search?q=you+have+the+right+to+bare+arms&rlz=1C1SNNT_enUS599US599&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwj81OLtu5raAhUOEHwKHTzxAJcQ_AUICigB&biw=1536&bih=760#imgrc=R1apWU3snhc89M:

                I have a hard time with comprehension one of my flaws I must say. I look forward to be a long term student of fire and good thing I have poor comprehension I will fit in just perfect with the party 😉

                The delayed roller block action of the HK was originally in the mg42…Hitler’s zipper so I was hoping Gary you would say I did not know ENOUGH about guns but you didn’t but in 1960s HK got the design from CETME in Spain for the HK 91 and then they made a smaller for the MP5.

                Funny how a German company would pay a Spanish company for a German design. ?????

                I had a psychological test almost 2 years into my trails with Sonny and they said I was a-ok and sharp and both licensed counselors are dear to me today on a personal level- we talk and hike and do medical massages together and always been great visits. I was being qualified to do contracted work and also passed those tests to help criminally minded mentally challenged folks learn the tools to lead a productive life vs homeless or gained more independence for the people struggling just to be a part to this modern life. I have taken a almost 60 year old Native American Lady who had a lobotomy and I was told to feed her pureed foods and I must feed her because she was unable to feed herself but I was able with no talk speak with her and in a much cave woman mannerisms by example showed her she can do it on her own. Same lady was in wheel chair and after a few months she was walking 3 miles the 7 day shift every other week that I worked and you saw how proud she was in how she stood and smiled. Sometimes some of us need that specialized time and attention to grow in life….

                So yeah never be afraid of me Gary because I am God’s and I know and practice safety always even ask fire chief Pete Anderson…safety first with me always…and I am so glad Norb you got to meet Pete very much so—because human factors and safety will always be my platform on the aftermath of the YHF and many fires.

                Good night. Rough 2 hours so nap time.

                NEW CHAPTER PLEASE…

                I have to hear Diane and Norb and Rocksteady, John.

                please

                also always write your comment than come here and copy and paste because the longer on page writing the better chance the captcha locks up

                oh and Gary remember…yep… remember eyes and ears right here— are not working so well but well enough to know and feel truths…get your foia and public records or privacy act records today and include the names who you feel need to be included- I did the ones who did me harm to see where they laid in this all— I have to state some are just in a grieving process and that includes FFs and every day folks not just the ones affected by 6-30-13 directly…

                • Gary Olson says

                  Gee whiz, I already unconditionally surrendered, you win already!

                  Oh…and it goes without saying that now IF the truth is told about the Loop, Battlement Creek and Yarnell Hill Fires, maybe…just maybe…however small the chance may be…the next hotshot disaster fire will never happen?

                  This is because the fact is, none of those fires were the primary cause of the deaths of any of the El Cariso, Mormon Lake or Granite Mountain Hotshots. Their leaders were the primary cause of those deaths…that’s the truth.Oh…and one more thing, I am very well aware that very few of you if any, are particularly interested in what happened on the Battlement Creek Fire or the Loop Fire.

                  You are interested in what happened on the Yarnell Hill Fire as I am. BUT…here is where my connecting data points and common threads between all of those fires come in.

                  IF…the truth would have been told about the Loop Fire and IF…the truth would have been told about the Battlement Crrek Fire, then maybe…just maybe, however small the chance would have been, maybe the Yarnell Hill Hill Fire would just be one more forgotten fire by now, you know…except for those people directly impacted by it like the residents of Yarnell etc.

                  Have you noticed I quit throwing rocks at the Prescott Fire Department years ago? And have now quit bitchin’ about Hybrid Firefighters (I leave that task to the Woodsman) I can see clearly now what the real problem is.

                  And it isn’t the Prescott Fire Department or Hybrid Fitefighters, it is a systemic failure and a refusal by the entire fuckin’ wildland firefighting complex to be honest with themselves or anyone else.

                  Like I have written several times…thank God the National Trasportation Safety Board isn’t like them or none of us would be any safer now traveling by air or common carrier than we were when the NTSB was first formed.

  5. WantsToKnowTheTruth says

    On March 26, 2018 at 12:29 pm, Gary Olson said…

    ——————————————————————————————————-
    As I have written before, I am a student of the Loop, Battlement Creek, South Canyon and the Yarnell Hill Fires. All of course are the wildfires that killed Hotshots with flames, as opposed to random accidental deaths.

    I am researching and writing about the data points all of these fires have in common and the threads that run through all of them. These common data points and threads meet the very definition of George Santayana’s famous quote.

    https://en.m.wikiquote.org/wiki/George_Santayana

    I hope to use my research and writing to beat “them” like the low down dirty dogs they are. These fire gods are now epitomized by my old friend…Shawna Legarza.
    ————————————————————————————————————

    On March 26, 2018 at 6:57 pm, Woodsman said…

    ———————————————————————————————————–
    “Progress, far from consisting in change, depends on retentiveness. When change is absolute there remains no being to improve and no direction is set for possible improvement: and when experience is not retained, as among savages, infancy is perpetual. Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it.”
    George Santayana

    ———————————————————————————————————–

    On March 28, 2018 at 11:20 am, Gary Olson also said…

    ( Regarding the similarities between the fatalities at the Loop, Battlement Creek, South Canyon and the Yarnell Hill Fires )…

    ———————————————————————————————————–
    The system flaws were revealed for most to look at, very but few to see, which probably resulted in no changes and every since then we have just been lucky which will continue until the next time it happens.
    ————————————————————————————————————

    “The system flaws were revealed for most to look at, very but few to see.”

    And that is why so many have worked so hard ( for so long ) even just on this particular forum.

    Not just to LOOK ( at every possible detail )… but to truly SEE… and genuinely increase the chances of saving the lives that have yet to be extinguished.

    Carry on.

    • Gary Olson says

      I’m impressed. I thought that was a “sleeper line” that would go unnoticed. And of course I was taking a shot at many, or maybe even most of “them”, but clearly I intended to exclude those who participate here on this thread.

      I believe this impromptu crowd sourcing social investigation, review and analysis of the Yarnell Hill Fire is truly the first wildfire disaster investigation in the history that an honest alternative to what is the standard cover up and fairy tale that has always been the product of corrupt and mismanaged agency hacks with the heroic exception on Dr. Ted Putnam, who until now has been the one light in the darkness of deception, obfuscation, and obstruction systemically practiced by the agencies to cover up the true primary, secondary and causal factors in literally every serious accident wildfire investigation to date in order to protect those agencies and the civil servants running them and the careers of those who were directly responsible for the mismanagement, malfesonce, and incompetence with a conspiracy of lies, deception and half truths.

      All of this while they were in reality committing very serious felony violations of federal law, one in particular everyone who watches the news should be very familiar with by now thanks to the Adminisrarion of President Trump. And that is 18 USC 1001 and not only sent Martha Stewart to federal prison for years, but may in the end bring down this current Presidency. I am not advocating or saying I want that to happen because I think there is at least some risk of serious civil disturbances and some level of civil war which will result in good people being killed on both sides…my people.

      In other words, I am trying to emphasize this law, 18 USC 1001 isn’t an obscure and little known, understood or used federal statute. It is a workhorse and is used on a regular basis by all federal agents, not just those in the FBI.

      I used this law all of the time in my previous life to help hold people accountable for their actions and enforce the rule of law that is currently being ignored and flaunted by SERIOUS ACCIDENT INVESTIGATION TEAMS on a regular basis in order to generate false and misleading SERIOUS ACCIDENT INVESTIGATION REPORTS AND CIVER UPS!

      And guess what? Several experts have agreeed with me, my “Smoking Gun” from the Battlement Creek Fire Investigation is indeed a Smoking Gun, that now can’t be oversold because it is what it is.

      And what it is, is a classic example of how the corrupt and mismanaged wildland firefighting agencies, specifically the U.S. Forest Service in this particular case, has been violating 18 USC 1001 among other federal statutes for decades now.

      It is finally time for a little expose, which of course is well beyond the statute of limitations for prosecution, but hopefully the next one won’t be. And just as a little reminder, you need to be aware that federal law views the OMMISSION of facts…exactly like it views LIES pertaining to those same facts. STOP IT! AND DON’T DO IT ANYMORE! We the People, will be watching…YOU PEOPLE.

      GOD BLESS AMERICA!

      U.S. Code › Title 18 › Part I › Chapter 47 › § 1001
      18 U.S. Code § 1001 – Statements or entries generally
      US Code
      Notes
      Authorities (CFR)

      (a) Except as otherwise provided in this section, whoever, in any matter within the jurisdiction of the executive, legislative, or judicial branch of the Government of the United States, knowingly and willfully—
      (1) falsifies, conceals, or covers up by any trick, scheme, or device a material fact;
      (2) makes any materially false, fictitious, or fraudulent statement or representation; or
      (3) makes or uses any false writing or document knowing the same to contain any materially false, fictitious, or fraudulent statement or entry;
      shall be fined under this title, imprisoned not more than 5 years or, if the offense involves international or domestic terrorism (as defined in section 2331), imprisoned not more than 8 years, or both. If the matter relates to an offense under chapter 109A, 109B, 110, or 117, or section 1591, then the term of imprisonment imposed under this section shall be not more than 8 years.
      (b) Subsection (a) does not apply to a party to a judicial proceeding, or that party’s counsel, for statements, representations, writings or documents submitted by such party or counsel to a judge or magistrate in that proceeding.
      (c) With respect to any matter within the jurisdiction of the legislative branch, subsection (a) shall apply only to—
      (1) administrative matters, including a claim for payment, a matter related to the procurement of property or services, personnel or employment practices, or support services, or a document required by law, rule, or regulation to be submitted to the Congress or any office or officer within the legislative branch; or
      (2) any investigation or review, conducted pursuant to the authority of any committee, subcommittee, commission or office of the Congress, consistent with applicable rules of the House or Senate.
      (June 25, 1948, ch. 645, 62 Stat. 749; Pub. L. 103–322, title XXXIII, § 330016(1)(L), Sept. 13, 1994, 108 Stat. 2147; Pub. L. 104–292, § 2, Oct. 11, 1996, 110 Stat. 3459; Pub. L. 108–458, title VI, § 6703(a), Dec. 17, 2004, 118 Stat. 3766; Pub. L. 109–248, title I, § 141(c), July 27, 2006, 120 Stat. 603.)

    • Woodsman says

      Here is one of the main issues with the business of wildland firefighting in the United States: it’s an exclusive club. You’re in or you’re out. I’m lookin at you Todd fucking Abel, you wannabe wildfire guru battalion chief motherfucker. There’s two kinds of firefighters in the wildland arena: those who have progressed through the system the right way & those who have ‘fast-tracked’ bypassing the accepted advancement practices & poof! Big-time qualifications overnight. I’m lookin at YOU, Darryl Willis.

      The life or death situation on the firelines of America manifests itself when those working on the fire don’t actually know which class their leaders come from either through ignorance or voluntary cognitive dissonance. So let me ask you: who is your supervisor & more importantly, how did they get there? Recognition of the answer to this question and hedging accordingly in your daily risk analysis JUST MAY SAVE YOUR LIFE!

      Nothing can be taken for granted or assumed in the business of wildland firefighting. The sooner you accept this reality, the more likely you & those around will have an accident free successful mission. So, let’s THINK out there, people. It’s not rocket science!

      The Woodsman

      • Woodsman says

        Lesson #2

        The pervasive national Let It Burn Unofficial Official Policy

        The powers that be want it all to burn. At first glance one may believe this ideology is in reaction to a hundred year philosophy of maximum fire exclusion from the landscape… but it’s actually more than that, way more. The people behind the curtain pulling the strings as it were WANT IT ALL TO BURN. Why, you ask? Because it’s good for fuel reduction therefore lessening the impacts from wildfires that are likely to occur? Well, yes but it’s more than that. It is believed by some of those in power that humans are a blight to the planet, fire is a natural part of the ecology of the land, and by default it NEEDS to burn for the cleansing of mother earth. Oops, I almost forgot: just as the enormity of the military/industrial complex was identified years ago our society has entrenched another similar phenomenon: the wildfire/industrial complex. Big fires pay, big time. So how about it residents of Curry county, Oregon? How about you, Gatlinburg? Ever wonder why it took the Park Service 3 freaking days to actually attempt to extinguish a small fire in the rocks? Now you know why.

        THE Woodsman

        • Woodsman says

          .,.and if your home or your subdivision is in the way, TOO BAD, you shouldn’t have lived there anyway. You should live in a planned development with government water & sewer service. Mother Earth is more important than pesky human life. That’s the truth. You will not hear the truth, however. You will hear excuse after excuse. Failing to engage in aggressive initial attack in the name of firefighter safety is a common excuse. The old-timers know Exactly what I’m talking about. That’s what public information officers are used for: lying to the public in order to cover up the honest truth of what’s really being considered by fire managers in order to ‘contain’ a wildfire. FIRE USE, baby! Look it up.

          Woodsman

        • Woodsman says

          And speaking of fire managers placing the needs of ‘the resource’ ahead of human life, I have a story to share. Before I continue, let me first say that I’ve reached the limits of my tolerance to keep my mouth shut in order to play along with the charade.

          Look here, leaders of wildfire across the land, I’ve given you upwards of 6 MONTHS to give us a factual report on the 2, count them 2!, tree strike fatalies in Montana last July & August. That’s right 2 fatality by tree strike on the same forest 2 weeks apart.

          #1 The condition of the Lolo & Beaverhead-Deerlodge national forests was shocking! Square mile after square mile of dead lodgepole, a true mess unlike I’ve ever witnessed before in 20 years of service. It’s my understanding that active forest management including tree harvesting & thinning has all but been eliminated from consideration due to special interest groups and subsequent litigation preventing stand thinning and other silvicultural practices from occurring. Thus the public forests are miles of standing & down timber ripe for burning when lightning strikes. What a shameful piece of ground!

          I’ve carried this with me for over 6 months: I received an unsolicited in person first hand account of the events surrounding the death of hotshot Witham on the Lolo Peak fire. Fireline leaders opted for use of mechanized equipment for dead tree snag removal in the fireline construction area but were OVERRULED by forest personnel, their objection being it was in an area classified as PROPOSED WILDERNESS AREA. (It wasnt true designated wilderness yet) That’s right, no machinery allowed! Out came the mechanized tree harvester and in went the hotshots (hand crew.) On the first shift Mr. Witham was killed by a tree strike. In summary, I have one question for my readers: are fire managers putting the resource ahead of human life? My answer is YES, they are.

          RIP, Brent Witham, you deserved better leadership across the board. Also, deepest prayers for the feller-buncher operator who related his personal account of the true happenings of that day to me. It’s not your fault!

          Trenton Johnson of Grayback forestry type 2 crew was the victim of the tree strike fatality 2 weeks prior to this event on the same forest. While I have no first hand knowledge of the circumstances in his death, I wonder what if any unnecessary risks were taken due to consideration of the resource needs in comparison to the preservation of human life.

          Woodsman

        • Woodsman says

          One can easily check behind my words if you don’t believe me. It’s written in black and white all over wildfire documents. Just go to the lessons learned center. There is an 11 min 26 sec video entitled ” Every Fire is an Opportunity to Treat a Landscape. ” This mentality has absolutely infected the management of wildfires in the United States today.

          • Woodsman says

            …….and everyone knows you have to crack a few eggs to make an omelet, right? The civilians who lost their lives in Gatlinburg were the eggs. Afterall , every fire is an opportunity to treat a landscape. Read the management plan for GSM national park – reintroduce fire to the landscape as much as possible.

            • Gary Olson says

              Dear Woodsman;

              Whoa now…where did that come from.? What did I miss? In any case, you have certainly given me a lot to think about just after I finished watching the Stormy Daniels interview on “60 Minutes.” She is the gift that just keeps on giving!

              And in return…here is what I have been thinking about today in the hope that it might give any WF who are still checking this thread something to think about while they are waiting for my much anticipated and highly acclaimed (at least conceptually) tome to be finished and published.

              “I have been thinking a lot today about somebody in the USFS “authorizing” the El Cariso Hotshots and only them, to wear berets…black berets. I think that is really weird and the perfect metaphor or symbol for my theory that “Hubris is the number one killer of Hotshots.”

              I mean…WTF, black berets? I knew that airborne units of the US Army are authorized to wear maroon berets and that Special Forces are authorized to wear green berets, like everyone else knows, but I was a little fuzzy on the black ones.

              FYI…those used to be the sole honor for the glory covered 75th Ranger Regiment until General Shinseki, who was the Army Chief Of Staff at the time, fucked it up and decided everyone in the Army should wear a black beret…kind of like everyone getting blue ribbon for “participating.” And now the Rangers wear a tan one because Shinseki ruined what the black beret had come to symbolize for he elite Rangers first made famous for scaling the cliffs of Normandy on D Day.

              But isn’t that weird, given the context of the time…1966, (while we were winning the Vietnam War, think John Wayne in “The Green Berets” and before Walter Cronkite decided we should just declare victory and withdraw after the disastrous Tet Offensive of 1968) that the El Cariso Hotshots would be considered so special somebody authorized them to wear black berets that were synonymous with the second only to Special Forces in fame…the storied Army Rangers?

              As Hotshots, used to run in cadence to, “I want to be an Airborne Ranger, live a life of constant danger” etc. led by some an ex Vietnam door gunner and Huey Crew Chief who ended up being captured and held hostage by the Revolutionary Guard when the Shah was deposed because he was in Iran working under contract for Bell Helicopters for the Iranian Government and making a bunch of money at the time.

              Anyway…I have been writing a chapter on the whole concept in my head today. Those black berets killed 12 El Cariso Hotshots (at least partially…no, they were symbolically totally responsible, or at least what the black berets symbolized was totally responsible for those deaths) and severely burned a bunch more of those stupid glory driven fucks who had a terminal case of “Hero Complex.”

              Think about it.

              • Gary Olson says

                Whoops, I meant to write, “as Hotshots, during my early years we used to “run in formation singing in cadence,” not running in cadence.

                That tradition was lost once the Vietnam guys were all gone from our crew. But…it was inspiring while it lasted…I guess?

                Running in formation and singing in cadence like Airborne Ranger wannabes was like a lot of things hotshot crew managers do to build esprit de corps that motivate ordinary people to do extraordinary things while working as the “tip of the WF spear” in situations that would make most people run the other way while saying…”FUCK THIS SHIT; I’m outta here!”

                • Gary Olson says

                  FYI,

                  As I have written before, I am a student of the Loop, Battlement Creek, South Canyon and the Yarnell Hill Fires. All of course are the wildfires that killed Hotshots with flames, as opposed to random accidental deaths.

                  I am researching and writing about the data points all of these fires have in common and the threads that run through all of them. These common data points and threads meet the very definition of George Santayana’s famous quote.

                  https://en.m.wikiquote.org/wiki/George_Santayana

                  I hope to use my research and writing to beat “them” like the low down dirty dogs they are. These fire gods are now epitomized by my old friend…Shawna Legarza.

                  Unfortunately, my very own personal most beloved and respected fire god, Bill Buck is in this same group. Like I have written many times, I don’t have any secrets from you, who are indeed among my closest friends and confidants.

                  There are just things I haven’t had a chance to tell you about yet and that will eventually include the “Smoking Gun” I am in possession of that Bill used to kill the Mormon Lake Hotshots on the Battlement Creek Fire.

                  SPOILER ALERT – The Battlement Creek Fire SAIT was in possession of this smoking gun but…wait for it….they covered it up and it was not mentioned in their final SAIR or anywhere else until it was sent to me 30 years later.

                  God Bless America!

                  • Gary Olson says

                    Oh…and one more thing. It took my participation in this on going discussion for the past five years to “see” these common data points and threads in context after staring at them for years without seeing them and understanding what they are.

                    Now…I just have to be able to paint a picture for you by connecting the dots (data point and threads) one at a time so your eyes will be opened as well.

                    I hope I can do it. 🙂

                    • Woodsman says

                      Well, Big G, grab a brush & a sheet of canvas & hop to it. Lives of good people are at stake here. There’s a better chance somebody will listen to you as your credentials are rock solid in the world of hotshots…if I recall, some of the best times of your life?

                    • Woodsman says

                      “Progress, far from consisting in change, depends on retentiveness. When change is absolute there remains no being to improve and no direction is set for possible improvement: and when experience is not retained, as among savages, infancy is perpetual. Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it.”

                      George Santayana

                    • Gary Olson says

                      OK…I’m on it. I will actually work on a Readers Digest version so I don’t have to wait for my book to come out to share my nuggets of wisdom and insight.

                      Plus…with those of you who are still here, I can skip the lengthy back story because you already know that part and you “get it.”

                      And yes…being a Wildland Firefighter and specifically a grunt and a ground pounder was the happiest times of my life. I have to insist on that because I was always so jealous and resentful of the luxurious life those who showed up in either their own engines or helicopters enjoyed.

                      And as I have said before, my happy place is back in the shadow of the magnificent Sangre de Christo Mountains in the Land Of Enchantment, Nuevo Mexico.

                      I liked Flagstaff as well, but I didn’t work or live most of the time in Flagstaff. I worked all of the time and lived most of the time at Happy Jack on the Long Valley Ranger District in the middle of friggin’ nowhere. It was like being at a Special Operations Group, Forward Operating Base where the Lord Of The Flies meets Animal House. So it is kind of hard to call that my “Happy Place.” A great place to learn how to be a hotshot, but…

                      Fun Fact…New Mexico has to print USA on their license plates because so many ignorant people in the rest of the country think anyone with a New Mexico plate is from a foreign country.

                    • Gary Olson says

                      Oh…and one more thing. Whenever I have floated my “Hubris is the number one killer of hotshots to people who are former hotshots or those who know what it means to be a hotshot, they invariably say something like, “Yes, but hotshots have to have that in order to do their job.”

                      Which of course I agree with, but it is nuanced. Now of course if RTS were responding to this he would write something about no one needs hubris to be an effective hotshot, humility and an absence of braggadocio is far more important. So, just to be clear…I use hubris and “confidence” on a level of between 1 and 10 at a borderline 11 interchangeably. It is just easier to type or say,
                      one word…”hubris.”

                      And at the risk of using yet another totally inaccurate military comparison to WF because wildfires can’t think and due to the simple fact it has to follow the laws of nature, I am going to use one simply because it is easy to visualize.

                      “Those who recruit, train, supervise and manage hotshots have to pump them up and convince them of their own superiority and invincibility in order to make them believe they can succeed by fully committing to a full frontal assault on the machine gun position because they are just that good.”

                      That is what prepares ordinary people to be able and willing to undertake extraordinary tasks when their primordial survival instinct tells them to run away.

                      Now…this concept works really good most of the time because those who are actually leading the hotshots on the fireline understand and know how to apply “nuance” while prosecuting their missions and they know you don’t really charge the machine gun nest, you just know you could and be successful if it was really necessary to do so, but it’s not necessary or a good idea because you will probably DIE and beating the wildfire is never THAT important.

                      We only know of three times in the history of hotshots when this system has experienced catastrophic failure because those who were actually leading the hotshots failed to appropriately apply nuance at the appropriate time in the appropriate way. And of course that was on the Loop, Battlement Creek and Yarnell Hill Fires.

                    • Gary Olson says

                      Think about it though. On those three fires, those hotshots had the discipline, confidence, courage, commitment, loyalty and belief in themselves and their leaders…they followed them into the maw of hell.

                      Is “into the maw of hell” to corny? All of those who died were burned alive…so I don’t think so.

                    • Gary Olson says

                      And just as a reminder, I always exclude the South Canyon Fire on Storm King Mountain which is often mistakenly called the Storm King Mountain Fire.

                      Based on my study of that fire, those 9 Prineville Hotshots died more like the 7th Calvary Troopers died with General Custer at the Battle Of The Little Big Horn. There was no leadership present that day or a Last Stand.

                      There was only chaos, confusion, disorganization and panic, retreat, disaster and ultimately…horrible deaths.

                    • Gary Olson says

                      I received some constructive criticism for my literary use of the comparison of how the Troopers in the 7th Calvary died in the Battle Of The Little Big Horn, so I am going to try and explain myself.

                      I know that sometimes when someone asks me what time it is, I tell them how to build a watch. So I do try to keep it short, but by doing so, especially in this abbreviated format, a lot is left out and is open to interpretation.

                      If you detected a tone of disgust and anger in my comparison, it was there, but was not directed at either the 9 Prineville Hotshots, the 2 helitack or the 3 smokejumpers who were burned alive on the steep slope of Storm King Mountain and this includes the jumper in charge and IC Don Mackey, nor the 274 Troopers and Induan Scouts who died from the 7th Calvary.

                      My anger in both cases is directed at the government who was responsible for all of the loss in both cases. The BLM in the first and the Department Of Army in the second, combined with the arrogance and criminal stupidity of General Custer which I think has been well documented and accepted by mainstream experts.

                      I think the original sins in the Battle Of The Little Big Horn, staying completely out of the moral right or wrong of the Indian Wars, was sending Troopers to fight an adversary with inferior weapons because the federal government was just to damn cheap and corrupt to provide its soldiers with the latest and best weapons that were available that incidentally their adversaries did have.

                      It was not only a lope sided battle in terms of numbers (several hundred against several thousand) but the Troopers were armed with single shot rifles whereas their adversaries had repeating rifles.

                      In terms of the chaos, confusion, disorganization etc. during the Battle Of The Little Big Horn and ultimate horrible deaths, I was referring to the latest archeological research (that I believe is accurate) that shows that rather than a disciplined and organized defense of their position resulting in a heroic last stand, it was rather hundreds of separate battles between individual combatants in complete confusion resulting in a total breakdown of command and control which resulted in a confused melee and slaughter of the Troopers, which was the fault of management, not the individual soldiers who gave their lives for their country and deserved much better.

                      As far as the South Canyon Fire goes, I have expressed my opinion in some detail regarding that fire on this thread before.

                      But as a short reminder, those wildland firefighters deserved much better from the government represented by the BLM as well because the BLM’s incompetence and failed policies resulted in those WF losing their lives for their country as well when it was totally avoidable and unnecessary.

                      The specific policy I am referring to is the BLM’s policy to make the first jumper out of the door the jumper in charge and Incident Commander regardless of their qualifications or skill set.

                      This probably works okay most of the time on small isolated smokejumper fires with very few people and resources to manage, but I think it can quickly become problamatic on larger and more complex fires.

                      I think it has been well documented that Don Mackey, although he was technically qualified to be IC, was more suited to keeping his head down and building fireline than managing a complex fire with mixed resources and agencies in a real hodgepodge of personnel, because Mackey had his head down constructing fireline when he should have been heads up with complete situational awareness to see they were constructing fireline ABOVE an uncontrolled wildfire without any anchor points on a very steep slope in what the Colorado Division Of Forestry calls Fuel Type X, that is frost killed Gamble Oak up to 12 feet high that is so explosive, fires in that fuel type have been documented to run down and kill adult mule deer, in addition to the fact that the area had been burned earlier by a ground fire through the understory that further prepped the overstory to literally explode in what was a giant canyon and natural chimney, with the WF above the fire when it did finally go off like a bomb.

                      And on top of that, the senior BLM engine supervisor from the local area was in charge until the jumpers showed up and then Mackey was in charge for some things, but the other guy was still in charge for other things and it kind of went back and forth which resulted in no one really being in charge.

                      And into this mess went an entire squad of 9 Prineville Hotshots from Oregon by helicopter insertion who were unfamiliar with the area or Fuel Type X.

                      Neither the Prineville Hotshot Crew Boss nor their Number 2 were with the squad that was sent in, they were both still waiting down at the helibase with the second squad and never made it to the fire when things went to hell in a hand basket.

                      I don’t think it is uncommon for a squad boss under those circumstances to lack the juice (status and influence) to call bullshit on the situation and refuse to go along in order to get along.

                      Now…that is my short interpretation of just some of the things that went wrong on the South Canyon Fire. Iif I have it wrong, I will be more than happy to read or listen to an opposing assessment and if it makes sense, I will modify my position accordingly on both the South Canyo Fire and the Battle Of The Little Big Horn.

                      I know I do have a tendency to blame management first and ask questions later given my long and at times unhappy relationship with “the suits”, especially those in the BLM who fucked up the Battlement Creek Fire as well and then blamed the firefighters for their incompetence and malfeasance, whoops….getting angry again, time to sign off.

                    • Gary Olson says

                      Oh…and one more thing. The reason all of those firefighters were cutting fireline in a giant chimney above an uncontrolled wildfire in Fuel Type X…is because that’s where they all initially ended up in the first place.

                      And then on one ever looked around and said wait a minute…something is wrong with this scenario.

                      The helitack flew in to a ridge top and constructed a helispot because that’s what helitack do.

                      The hotshots were transported by the helitack to the helispot on the ridge top because that’s what hotshots do.

                      The smokejumpers jumped in and landed by parachuteo on the ridge top near the helispot because that’s what smokejumpers do.

                      And then everyone started cutting fireline from there because that’s what wildland firefighters do.

                      In hindsight, they didn’t need a helicopter or a helispot or any smokejumpers because there was an interstate highway running along the point of origin and the base of the fire.

                      Everyone could have simply gotten out of their vehicles, hiked up to the base of the fire and started constructing handline along the flank of the fire with a solid anchor point like the manual and all of their training told them to do. WTF…Over?

                    • Gary Olson says

                      Oh…and several smokejumpers were further up the slope and they made it to the top and over the leeward side and survived.

                      One smokejumper, Eric Hipke, barely made it and survived with serious burns just in front of what really does sound more like an explosion than a fire front.

                      And Don Mackey could have survived, but he ran back down the slope to help the hotshots, so there’s that then…

                      Everything looks simple from my La-Z Boy recliner. I have all of the answers…just ask me because that’s what old men do.

                    • Robert the Second says

                      Gary,

                      Thanks for the South Canyon Fire refresher once again and the Little Big Horn information.

                      I have a few points of clarification and emphases to make.

                      First off, IC Mackey was not building any fireline but was sharpening his chainsaw instead of managing the fire, a clear sign of stress and resorting to what one is most familiar with,

                      Second, the frost-killed chaparral was a major contributor to both the 1976 Battlement Creek Fire and the 1994 South Canyon Fires. It becomes basically freeze-dried whereby all the fuel moisture is removed making it aggressively volatile and a kindling-like contribution to the extremely low fuel moisture making the entire fuel bed available to burn violently.

                      http://coloradofirecamp.com/battlement-creek/vegetation-fuels.htm

                      In August 1983 a grass fire occurred at the Little Big Horn Battlefield in
                      Montana,which allowed archeologists to use metal detectors to locate shell casings and bullets and such.

                      I am positive i read that they concluded that the movie version of the Indians riding around the 7th Cavalry in circles was mostly drama and therefore false. However, I am unable to locate the research on it.

                      What the archeologists actually found were numerous sniper shooting holes with remnant shell casings at each one where they picked off many of them that way.

                    • Gary Olson says

                      RTS,

                      Thank you, it has been a few years since I have studied the South Canyon Fire and I have never really focused on it so I knew I was off on some details.

                      However, I was pretty sure I had the gist of it right and you have confirmed that because you didn’t rip me apart.

                      One very interesting thing though, is the new information to me that Mackey was sharpening his chain saw which I never knew. And yes, as I have written many times, when all of us are under stress we revert to our ingrained training, which of course is why good training is so important, especially that training that simulates real world experiences.

                      And I am far from an expert on the Battle Of The Little Big Horn. I have mostly just always focused on the fact that a mismanaged and corrupt federal government sent US soldiers to fight a dirty war with inferior and drastically outdated weapons, probably because I am a gun nut and I always identify with those grunts in the trenches. I have never been able to visualize myself as what the vets used to call a REMF.

                      And BINGO…you hit on one of my favorite bones to chew on I did not mention in order to keep my post…shorter. And that is Fuel Type X on the South Canyon Fire.

                      I am not a student of the South Canyon Fire because as I have said, I don’t consider it a hotshot fatality fire like the Loop, Battlement Creek and the Yarnell Hill fires. I think it is a hotshot related fatality fire because 9 hotshots were burned alive on it, but I personally don’t think the mistakes that were made on it were hotshot mistakes. Nor do I think Mackey was was primarily responsible for what went wrong, he was both a victim and a hero.

                      I do however, believe deeply flawed agency policies which were revealed in a catastrophic failure that reflected systemic faults that were accepted because the cascading events of the South Canyon Fire hadn’t lined up (Swiss Cheese Effect) since the Battlement Creek Fire, a whole 18 years earlier and we as a species, or at least as a culture have pretty fucking short memories, to fall like dominoes. In that, if any one of them would have been removed from the sequence or equation, no one would have died and the South Canyon Fire would just be one more forgotten wildfire that was “successfully” fought.

                      But instead…the system flaws were revealed for most to look at, very but few to see, which probably resulted in no changes and every since then we have just been lucky which will continue until the next time it happens.

                      Speaking of the perils of ignoring the lessons of the history, I am working on my next MOAP (mother of all posts) that is going to include the common data points and threads that run between the Battlement Creek and South Canyon Fires, even though as I said, I am not as interested in the South Canyon Fire as I am the others, I leave that task to “generalists” in wildland firefighter safety such as yourself.

                      I have however, always been interested in those common data points between the two fires, which I find dumbfounding and a true indictment of the BLM Fire management people, especially those in the local area of Grand Junction.

                      Here are some of them off the top of my head,

                      Both fires,

                      1. Were in the same specific fuel type, which was the infamous but little known and understood (outside of the Colorado Division Of Forestry, I guess?) nicknamed Fuel Type X.

                      2. Out of state hotshots were killed on both fires who were unfamiliar with the area and specific fuel type.

                      3. Both fires had mixed inter agency resources between the BLM and USFS, which made them inherently more complex and difficult to manage which required higher expertise than the first jumper out of the fucking plane had!

                      4. Both fires burned at the same time of year with very close dates of occurrence.

                      5. Both fires trapped and killed wildland firefighters working in huge canyons and natural chimneys ABOVE THE FIRES!

                      6. Both fires burned on very steep slopes in very rugged terrain.

                      7. Fire conditions were nearly identical, including severe but anticipated winds.

                      8. Both fires were managed by the BLM.

                      9. Neither Fire investigative report identified any agency or system failures and were cover ups.

                      10. And my favorite…wait for it…Battlement Mesa and Storm King Mountain are only about 50 miles apart. Fuck Me!

                      I don’t want to oversell my “ Smoking Gun” claim. I never intended to wait this long to publish it but frankly, I have never had the format to do so before now. And the reason I don’t want to oversell it it, is because it will probably mean precious little to precious few and maybe just me because I know the complete backstory and I can see it for what it is. Written proof of a cover up of the Battlement Creek Fire and as far as I am concerned, a damning indictment of the entire system of agency fire investigation cover ups and proof of the dirty way the U.S. Forest Service in particular has operated for decades.

                      You know Mr, Mike Dudley, there wouldn’t be so many crazy cover up conspiracy theorists out here if there weren’t so fucking many governments cover ups that are revealed at regular intervals. It is also proof to me at least that Shawna Legarza isn’t the first fire god, nor will she be the last to sell her soul for self advancement.

                      Although…in the meantime RTS, I am curious what you will think of it and if you read it the same way I do (I might be a little off in my perspective since I am more than a little off the Rez) so I will send it to you just in case the USFS has me whacked and my hard drive “disappeared.” This way, they will have to wack you as well…Good Luck old friend!

                      See…18 USC 1001 and know the law viers an OMMISSION the very same way it views a LIE.

                    • Gary Olson says

                      Speaking of being s gun nut and providing the best battle rifle possible for our troops and going back to an earlier discussion between Joy and I, I just want to state for the record I am a huge fan of the new Heckler & Koch 27 they are starting to equip our Marines with even though they cost more than 3 times what an FN Herstal manufactured M4 does. I can’t wait to get one of those nasty little bitches (non gender specific) for myself.

                      https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/M27_Infantry_Automatic_Rifle

                      Joy…although it looks like they are still way behind both of us on the need to upgrade to a heavier bullet like the .300 Blackout and I can’t remember you Serbian pick? Which is probably like I said before, we are too invested in the .556 NATO, probably because it was our idea in the first place?

                      God Bless America and Our Troops! Somebodies children are dying and suffering life long injuries, including PTSD for the rest of us.

                    • Gary Olson says

                      As you can probably tell, I was heavily influenced by the few Vietnam combat vets on our crew at a young and very impressionable age.

                      I don’t know if we belonged in Vietnam or not, but I think I did. I think I would have made a good grunt and ground pounder. But then again…we all know what a high opinion I have of myself. 🙂

      • Robert the Second says

        Woodsman,

        Thanks for the good lessons.

        This sure got you riled up Woodsman enough to write your spot post about “Todd fucking Abel, you wannabe wildfire guru battalion chief motherfucker” and “those who have ‘fast-tracked’ bypassing the accepted advancement practices & poof! Big-time qualifications overnight. I’m lookin at YOU, Darryl Willis.”

        Good stuff sir. Feel free to share the details. Keep up the fine work.

  6. WantsToKnowTheTruth says

    **
    ** “ONLY THE BRAVE” MOVIE MARKETER WILL BE TRUMP’S 2020 CAMPAIGN MANAGER

    You. Just. Can’t. Make. This. Shit. Up.

    Brad Parscale, the guy who was hired by Blacklabel Media to help market the Yarnell Hill Fire Movie will now become Donald Trump’s actual 2020 Campaign Manager.

    That is… if Trump isn’t in prison or hasn’t resigned or been impeached by then.

    Variety magazine was the first media outlet to report about Brad Parscale being hired to promote the “Only The Brave” movie using both social media and tricks like HIRING former Navy Seals to ‘push’ the movie…

    Variety
    Article Title: ‘Only the Brave’ Taps Trump Digital Guru Brad Parscale
    Published: October 19, 2017 2:00PM PT – By Brent Lang
    http://variety.com/2017/film/news/only-the-brave-trump-brad-parscale-1202594267/

    From that article…
    ———————————————————————————————————
    Brad Parscale, the digital media director for Donald Trump’s 2016 presidential campaign, was hired by the makers of “Only the Brave” to help the action-drama appeal to red-state moviegoers, Variety has learned.

    Black Label Media, the film’s financier, retained Parscale to supplement online and social media marketing efforts. Sony Pictures is distributing the $38 million production.

    Parscale advised the filmmakers to retain Marcus Luttrell, a former United States Navy SEAL whose heroic attempt to reach safety in Taliban-controlled parts of Afghanistan was dramatized in the 2013 film “Lone Survivor,” as an “influencer.” Luttrell was later paid to send out an email endorsement on the film’s behalf.

    Parscale also suggested that the filmmakers emphasize charitable giving in an effort to avoid any criticism that “Only the Brave” was exploiting a real-life tragedy for profit. One suggestion Parscale offered was to create a digital ticker showing the amount that was going to charity. Parscale said they thought the approach might resonate with liberal moviegoers who wouldn’t be as interested in “Only the Brave.”

    The film is targeted at heartland audiences, a group of moviegoers that Hollywood, a liberal-leaning industry, has struggled to reach in the past. Parscale’s efforts have been somewhat effective. Despite the weak tracking, insiders say the film is resonating more strongly in the South and Northwest, areas that are more receptive to President Trump.

    The work was done through Parscale’s for-profit company Giles-Parscale. It has a number of corporate clients, including the Bank of San Antonio, Hotel Emma, and Trump International Reality. Parscale has said he is already working on Trump’s 2020 re-election effort. He was recently profiled on “60 Minutes,” where he talked about the critical role Facebook played in helping Trump pull off his 2016 election win.
    ———————————————————————————————————–

    VOX
    Article Title…
    How Trump’s 2020 campaign manager is connected to the Russia scandal
    Brad Parscale is linked to a data firm that has become a focus of the Trump-Russia investigation.

    By Sean [email protected]@vox.com
    Published: Feb 27, 2018, 1:55pm EST – By Sean Illing

    From that article…
    ———————————————————————————————————–
    President Donald Trump has named Brad Parscale to be his 2020 campaign manager.

    On Tuesday morning, Trump released a statement calling Parscale a “longtime digital marketing strategist for President Trump” who was “essential in bringing a disciplined technology and data-driven approach to how the 2016 campaign was run.”

    Trump is not being hyperbolic here: Parscale, who was in charge of the Trump campaign’s digital operations and worked closely with Facebook, Twitter, and Google to hone the campaign’s social media presence, was a huge part of why Trump won the White House. A 2017 profile on 60 Minutes called Parscale the “secret weapon” of Trump’s social media strategy.

    “I understood very early that Facebook was how Trump was going to win,” Parscale said of the campaign’s use of social media during the 2016 presidential campaign. “I think we used it better than anyone ever had in history.”

    But the young tech guru who ran the Trump campaign’s digital operations from his office in San Antonio is an extremely controversial choice to run the president’s 2020 campaign — particularly given that Trump’s 2016 campaign is still being investigated for potential collusion with Russia.

    That’s because Parscale is intimately tied to a company called Cambridge Analytica, a shady data analytics firm that has become a major focus of both the House Intelligence Committee’s investigation into Russian meddling in the election and special counsel Robert Mueller’s probe.

    Last December, Mueller requested that Cambridge Analytica turn over internal documents as part of his investigation into possible collusion between the Trump campaign and Russia during the 2016 election.

    The thread connecting Russia, the Trump campaign, and Cambridge Analytica is Michael Flynn, Trump’s former national security adviser who was forced to resign after he reportedly lied to Vice President Mike Pence and the FBI about his phone conversations with a Russian envoy in 2016.

    A series of reports last July by the Wall Street Journal’s Shane Harris, Michael Bender, and Peter Nicholas revealed that Peter Smith, a pro-Trump GOP operative, sought to acquire 30,000 deleted emails from Hillary Clinton’s private server. Two of the groups Smith reached out to had connections to Russia.

    Smith told Harris that he was in regular contact with Flynn, who at the time was still working closely with Trump’s campaign. Harris also reported on intelligence assessments that outlined the efforts of Russian hackers to retrieve Clinton’s emails and pass them on to Flynn, who would then share them with the Trump campaign.

    Via an August 2017 Associated Press report, we also know that Flynn was later forced to disclose “a brief advisory role with a firm related to a controversial data analysis company that aided the Trump campaign.”

    That “data analysis” company was ( Brad Parscale’s company ) Cambridge Analytica.
    ———————————————————————————————————–

    SIDENOTE: Brad Parscale himself remains one of the leading suspects with regards to who actually “gave the green light” to Wikileaks to start ‘dumping’ stolen emails just 29 minutes after Trump’s “grab ’em by the pussy” Access Hollywood tape first hit the airwaves last year.

    On October 7, 2016…

    At 4:03 PM – The “Access Hollywood” tape of Trump boasting about sexually harassing
    women and “grabbing them by the pussy” is first released.

    Just 29 minutes later…

    At 4:32 PM – WikiLeaks begins posting Clinton campaign chairman John Podesta’s stolen emails.

    • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

      Correction for the post above…

      Donald Trump’s “grab ’em by the pussy” video did not come out in October of LAST year ( 2017 ).
      It was first released to the public on October 7, 2016… BEFORE the 2016 election(s).

    • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

      Followup…

      Just hours ago… Facebook announced that Brad Parscale’s company ( Cambridge Analytica ) is now SUSPENDED from participating in that social media platform.

      Whoops.

      Pretty hard to continue to be a social media advertising troll when you are now SUSPENDED from Facebook.

      Maybe Brad Parscale can go back to just paying Navy Seals to promote movies, like he did with the Yarnell Hill Fire Movie “Only The Brave”.

      CBS NEWS
      Article Title: Facebook suspends data firm used by Trump’s 2016 campaign
      Publshed: March 17, 2018, 12:16 AM – By Caroline Linton
      https://www.cbsnews.com/news/cambridge-analytica-suspended-facebook-trump-campaign/

      From that article…
      —————————————————————————————————–
      Facebook on Friday suspended consulting firm Strategic Communication Laboratories, the parent company of data analytics firm Cambridge Analytica, for violating its policies on data collection and retention. President Trump’s 2016 data guru Brad Prascale, who has been named campaign manager of the 2020 re-election bid, hired Cambridge Analytica during the campaign. Cambridge Analytica has said it was key to Mr. Trump’s victory.

      Julian Assange has said Wikileaks was approached by Cambridge Analytica in 2016 about potentially working together about the release of Hillary Clinton’s ( stolen ) deleted emails. According to The Wall Street Journal, Cambridge Analytica’s CEO Alexander Nix was emailed by Trump donor Rebekah Mercer asking if they might be able to better organize the release of ( the stolen ) Hillary Clinton emails by Wikileaks.
      —————————————————————————————————

  7. WantsToKnowTheTruth says

    **
    ** HEAD OF U.S. FORESTRY RESIGNS

    ABC News
    Article Title: U.S. Forest Service chief steps down amid sexual misconduct investigation
    Published: Mar 7, 2018, 7:03 PM ET – By Stephanie Ebbs
    http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/forest-service-chief-steps-amid-sexual-misconduct-investigation/story?id=53594798

    From the article…
    ——————————————————————————————————-
    The chief of the country’s forestry agency has stepped down amid an investigation into allegations of sexual misconduct, the U.S. Department of Agriculture confirmed to ABC News in a statement on Wednesday night.

    A PBS News investigation first reported allegations against Chief Tony Tooke related to relationships with subordinates prior to when he assumed his current role. The U.S. Forest Service confirmed last week that an independent investigator was looking into concerns about Tooke’s behavior.

    U.S. Agriculture Secretary Sonny Perdue confirmed that he accepted Tooke’s resignation.

    The Forest Service is an agency within the USDA that fights wildfires and manages federal land. The agency had more than 35,500 employees as of September 2017, according to a federal database.

    The agency has a history of problems related to sexual harassment and misconduct allegations.

    The House Oversight Committee held a hearing on the issue after a Huffington Post Highline report was published in 2016 and multiple class-action lawsuits have been filed against the agency over the years.
    ——————————————————————————————————–

      • Joy A Collura says

        special note to world—
        Norb and Diane did not vanish
        they just have the hardest time posting on IM
        yet we do miss your input so maybe John Dougherty will be kind and make a new chapter ssSSoooNnnnn 😉

  8. charlie says

    That’s interesting about Donald Trump, Gary.
    It’s also interesting to see how the military is doing double time right now.
    I see big bus loads of troops being brought it in and tanks are on the move.
    I noticed the Convoy headed California way during the night time hours.
    That is unusual to see them moving in the night. What does it mean? To me it seems like ramping up for a major war effort. We weren’t able to whip their North Koreans before, and I wonder if this will turn out to be another Vietnam situation. China is backing North Korea and they’ve got plenty of bodies to supply in case North Korea runs short. Hang around as long as you can because life is going to get interesting.

    Joy, nine lives but I’ve already used 6 up so I’ve got to be more careful. I’m just drinking rye whiskey mixed with apple juice for my health. The doctors ran a catheter up to my heart a couple weeks ago and couldn’t believe how clear my arteries were. Sad part of all this is it the forest service killed us by ruining our lungs with that 500,000 gallon dump on June 28 2013 and another 500,000 gal dump 2 years later. You can’t call them murderers can you? Well the population of Yarnell was reduced by over 20% in the few years after those excessive dumps of retardant. Gary Olson believes he was never affected by those retardant dumps. I think if you look closer he was affected. Young people can lose a lung and carry on. But the elders when their oxygen is compromised face tragedy. They go the way of the 20,000 plus fish that the retardant killed when dumped in a river. indeed, the resident of Yarnell during the retardant dumps had become a guinea pig for the forest service. But did the forest service list the names of the deceased after they dumped the retardant around Yarnell? Did they ever bother to investigate the situation where 20% of the population is now deceased since the retardant dumps? Do they dare look beyond the 19 wrongful deaths of the Wildland firefighters? No, reputations might be tainted. Okay before the dumps and before we hiked so many times through that s***. You took me off life support Joy so you know I was dead but if there were one good thing we could do for people would be to stop those damn dumps anywhere near a town site or a human population. Well to stop them. Because those Wild land firefighters are going to suffer in their later years.

    • Gary Olson says

      You make a good point Sonny, I don’t even know now why I disagreed with you in the first place. How would I know what that nasty stuff does to the human body, it is chemicals? ‘Like many WF, I was painted more than a few times because we would often be at or near the head of the fire where they would be dropping, especially during the first 36 to 48 hours while the fire was being managed by Chaos and it was a rippin’ and a roarin’.

      I can also tell you what would is the biggest threat to WF, it’s when that nasty stuff dries on clothes and line gear and then those things are not changed out or cleaned for days, weeks or ever. This means when it dries it would be turned into a powdered particulate form and would then be breathed continuously by the WF over time.

      To make matters worse, WF wear slurry as a sign of pride in fire camp because that means you were in the shit. Nobody wanted to get hit by it because it smelled like manure and could really chafe you when it dried like around your collar, but if you did…you did.

      The protocol calls for WF to lay prone out facing the drop with your hard hat on and chin strap down, but if there were trees around, I preferred to step behind one and then wait while it comes down like rain if the mix is right, the airspeed isn’t to fast and the bomber isn’t too low. There are videos of drops that have tore vehicles apart so it can hurt or kill you. Plus it can dislodge rocks and widowmakers, although I never heard of anyone being killed by a drop. But there’s a lot of things I haven’t heard of

      • Gary Olson says

        I can tell you something else that is probably even more dangerous. And that is the powder we used to mix up big batches of jellied gasoline, especially for large scale control burns, but I It is also mixed for heli torches or vehicle mounted terra torches…I guess? We never used any breathing protection or hazmat type gloves and it kind of gets everywhere in the process.

        I did have a close friend who had been a Santa Fe Hotshots for many years and had mixed a lot of that stuff up in the off season who died from kidney failure and I do know he was convinced that stuff was killing him.

        • charlie says

          This is probably the safest place in the world considering you got 80 tanks here and busloads of troops coming out going out on the military range. They could wipe out j u a r e z and no time at all.. the only problem right here is the noise of the trains going by. Been getting ready for the rain stacking stuff and burning brush around the trailer. Lots of Mesquite and I saw two African antelope those big ones close by. Anyways doing pretty good but except for this hernia which slowed me up and my breathing is gotten worse than ever. Joy, if you came here I would give you two of these lots. There are five of them all together. Then you could build your own set up like you wanted.

          I just got off the roof for this trailer. I went up there and sealed all the seams. I sealed myself as well. Me and paint and such don’t go together very well. Gary tells a sad story of how little the forest service and Wild land firefighting officials are concerned about the chemicals involved with slurry drops. The chemicals added to the slurry are trade secret, therefore, only a doctor treating a patient can find out what the hidden chemicals are. I suspect if people found out there would be quite an outrage. But that outrage ought to be expressed from just knowing the major constituents of the slurry. We do know that ammonia is a major lung cell killer. The least you breathe it the better off you are. Of course if it only depletes your lungs by 50% then you can still carry on. But the ammonia that comes off of that slurry has other dangers. Ammonium phosphate and nitrate content once applied to burning embers creates a certain amount of cyanide, a very deadly chemical well known or it’s killing effects. Now what the 5 to 15% hidden chemicals are, we have no idea. I haven’t been able to uncover any of those chemicals since I am not a doctor. And I can’t find a doctor interested enough to look into it. Even if he did he wouldn’t be able legally to reveal what he found. That stinks. How can the forest service or any government agent allow chemicals to be dumped on human beings or in the proximity of human life and human habitations without the public being informed of what those chemicals are. Life and health are being disregarded when this is allowed. When joy and I mention the deaths of so many people after the enormous slurry drops that surrounded Yarnell, we are very serious. Our own health has degraded to such a degree that both of us are limited in our actions and what we do after those slurry drops. Unbeknownst to us dangers of the slurry, we hiked through that chemical pollution many times soon after we were allowed back into the area. Joy even waded in the black chemical rain runoff. But noticing so many deaths after the drops, I began to research chemistry of the slurry. What I found and because more than 20% of the population is now deceased from Yarnell since the Yarnell fires, I now know how deadly this chemical slurry pollution can be especially to those compromised in their health already. If you go around the state where the elderly retire you will not find one city where 20% of the population dies within 3 years, unless of course it is Yarnell. We cannot let this tragic ending to people’s lives go unheard. Gary tells us of the carelessness of the forest service when they d o u s e t h e i r firefighters with these chemicals, knowing the dangers I am certain, yet not informing the men of the long term effects these pollutants will have on their health. This information that I have talked about is easily found out on Google. It is common knowledge among miners of old times that to make cyanide you simply put that dry ammonium nitrate or phosphate on to burning embers. Cyanide, as dangerous as it is, is used to release gold from sulfide ores. of course there are many old miners that suffered the side effects from being around cyanide, one of them being sudden death. It’s like my dad used to retort Mercury ores. He was very careful so he never got the effects, but Mercury ingested or fumes breathed causes one to lose all his teeth, hair to fall out, and as you have heard The Madness of Hatter’s. Hatters often we’re found insane because they were using Mercury in the process of making their hats. We are well aware that when billions are involved then many health issues will be overlooked by the and greed. when we needed uranium during the Cold War, miners were told that this low-grade uranium is harmless. that has been proven to be a lie, just as the cigarette companies told us smoking didn’t contribute to cancer. John Dougherty is doing a great work exposing the mining companies that could care less about the poor person’s health. They don’t mind creating dangerous pollution that harms people. For instance, the smelter in El Paso for years put off toxic fumes containing lead. When a psychologist tested people who had grown up within three or four mile radius of the smelter, he found that intelligent quotients we’re at least 10 points lower than people raised up outside the danger radius. the lead in the smoke was determined to be the cause, and God only knows what other effects that fumes had on people’s health. we will not tolerate continued disregard for the lives of humans. we will try to continue to educate people concerning the danger of the slurry drops.

            • charlie says

              The alarm Bells went off! 9 people from Yarnell died during the month of January. The young Kevin Black is now down with throat cancer , and Bill is about dead as well. Hello folks, talking about a town that only had a population of 645 residents. There is something deadly wrong when a town that has already been cleaned out of 125 people now this last January loses nine more in one month and add to that two more and Dire Straits. Joy and I k n e w personally most of those people that are dead or suffering on the verge of death. It is sickening to say the least how the retardant has taken lives and health from the individuals and Yarnell. Indeed there is many more deaths than the 19 firefighters that must be accounted for due to the Yarnell fire and subsequent retardant slurry drops. Do not forget Yarnell got a double dose of slurry drops from Jumbo Jets exceeded 500000 gallons during the first dump alone. the second dump came a couple years later and you can see now how the chemical retardant dumps are a deadly solution to slowing wildfires. Joy and I are saddened because many of these people where our near friends we enjoyed company with. What will it take to break through the callousness of heart the money greedy and reputation guarding Forest people, fire leaders involved, and companies profiting from these deadly chemicals. We need to know what was in that retardant trade secret ingredients that were in the solution to the tune of 5 to 15%. What is going on because I had written the EPA about this, yet they didn’t see any reason to investigate. I think had it killed 20 javelina they would be on to it.

  9. Gary Olson says

    Joy,

    You know me…I hate to criticize what others say, think, or do, but I am pretty sure that in order to starve a tumor to death, you have to starve to death the tumors host. Just sayin your plan doesn’t make much sense to me?

      • Joy A Collura says

        Not this again Gary—

        I have so much to do in a day in my complex life which is rather boring and simple but let me explain since its raining here with heavy fog— YES it does mean packing only oxygenated nutrients IN with an extracted method and starving me the host of delicious succulent savory morsels but I take each day at hand and allow the body to do its healing and yes like I said last night the first meal I would beg to place on my lips was Cafe Monarch and hashtag it away all day and night or I would even like to visit my old Culinary crew and let them make me something unique and one of a kind because I know they make things for me with heart and love…and I think that would make for a great first meal…Clear fiber M-F helps me keep regulated and the weekends I allow the body r&r from that manipulated fiber method and I take in protein yet I can tell you this—the next vlog will show HOW MUCH the tumors are vanishing and I do plan to extend it past 40 days in a manner that I will keep current regimen EXCEPT I will mash and chew cucumbers and tomatoes and basil bananas and start bringing back in my avocado staples and asparagus and garlic and peppers and all the yummy stuff I am missing…It’s my one life- I did not get what Sonny got; 9 lives. So I want to be around a long time and so I know to do that I have to make sure I love the host in a way that shows her the beauties of this here world versus just getting by and saying I made it or I survived this or that…All my life I waited thinking someone else would show me the world through rosey glasses but I gave my heart a fresh start and this year I am my own Valentine…sounds gay huh…I made me my Valentine choice…it was soooo easy I said what do I want to hear this 2018 and I said I want to hear “Will you be my Valentine’s?” and so sappy me knows that is not gonna happen in real time so I said “Self, will you be my Valentine?” and I replied “Hell yes, you amaze me” 🙂 hee hee self love baby hee hee Who else better than me…I am always there for me…when you think about I am my own life experiment and I am a work of art…messy like VanGo Picasso; hee hee…thanks for the concern but I am locked in this method because I am once and for all going to balance my mind body and soul…I deserve it…

        • Gary Olson says

          Well okay then. I don’t think I will try it for my tumor though, the process sounds just to darn complicated. And you know…Arizona Road Lizard CRAZY!

          • Gary Olson says

            Although truthfully, whenever I talk about my brain tumor, it’s just a shallow ploy for sympathy. It was discovered by accident during a routine brain scan and it has never bothered me except for random outbreaks of something very similar to Tourette’ Syndrome whenever I go into Walmart to shop. Nowhere else…just Walmart, if you don’t count the outbreaks here on this thread, which I don’t.

            After watching all of this news about background security investigations though, I think I might be screwed now if I was to ever need to have my Top Secret security Clearance renewed. Maybe I should have thought that one through before starting down this road? Whoops. I went through four of them over an 18 year period, and they were always stressful because no security clearance…no job.

            • Gary Olson says

              Oh…and one more thing. The reason I don’t count my outburst on this thread is because my anger was righteous. And if you weren’t as outraged as I was…either you weren’t paying attention or you bought into “The Big Lie” being perpetuated by the agencies and the Yavapai County FIRE Cabal Cosa Nostra.

              http://ourfiregods.com/reserved4.html

              I’m pretty much over it now though. My rightoues anger has been replaced by resignation and acceptance. They won…again. So…

  10. Gary Olson says

    News Flash….Dateline….New York City, In case you missed it.

    OK…that’s enough for me! I am throwing down the bullshit card on President Trump! Omarosa has ratted him out on “Big Brother, Celebrity Edition “and that’s enough for me because she was his wing woman originally.

    Omarosa said we would all have to bow down to him when he won because it was the ultimate revenge and now she says she wouldn’t vote for him again in a million years.

    And furthermore, she said, “It’s not my circus, not my monkeys, I’d like to say not my problem but I can’t say that because — like, it’s bad,” She also said, “No,” she said, “it’s going to not be OK. It’s not.” And, “I was haunted by tweets every single day, like what is he going to tweet next?” she said.

    I am pretty sure this means it time to begin impeachment proceedings and have Omarosa testify against him. You pickin’ up what I’m puttin’ down? So… it. News Flash….Dateline….New York City

    OK…that’s enough for me! I am throwing down the bullshit card on President Trump! Omarosa has ratted him out on “Big Brother, Celebrity Edition “and that’s enough for me because she was his wing woman originally.

    Omarosa said we would all have to bow down to him when he won because it was the ultimate revenge and now she says she wouldn’t vote for him again in a million years.

    And furthermore, she said, “It’s not my circus, not my monkeys, I’d like to say not my problem but I can’t say that because — like, it’s bad,” She also said, “No,” she said, “it’s going to not be OK. It’s not.” And, “I was haunted by tweets every single day, like what is he going to tweet next?” she said.

    I am pretty sure this means it time to begin impeachment proceedings and have Omarosa testify against him. You pickin’ up what I’m puttin’ down? So…

    • Gary Olson says

      Whoa now! Repeat…repeat. That training I received from the Department of Redundancy Department is really paying off!

      • Gary Olson says

        Oh…and one more thing. Watching the daily news pertaining to the Trump Administration is kinda like watchin’ the Jerry Springer Show in the old days except thermonuclear missiles may be launched on any given day instead of chairs being thrown. So…you know…it’s a lot more exciting for me to watch.

    • Joy A Collura says

      man..another Xanax moment for Gary

      poor Gary

      A reality show usually means FARTHEST from reality Gary…

      MUCH editing for their agenda purpose and effect to make it popular and be influential to the cookie cutter minds that watch it and build trust in those engaging like you…ie. Gary

      Those like Gary who are following the trails of the deepest darkest jungles ducking when they hear a noise between the vegetation looking and watching for the poison darts and spears hurtl’ing into Gary’s direction…

      OK PEOPLE… take one…scene 2…

      thank you Gary

      • Joy A Collura says

        I did not say the above because you said life is not all about me and the Bill Murray insert but because Gary reality shows, I would say that the producers AREN’T concerned with the truth. That’s not high on any producer’s list of things that they’re attempting to capture. I would say that in best case scenarios, the essential truth of a scene or scenario is conveyed, and in worst case scenarios, it is completely falsified. SO just because they edited that Omarosa bit as it was done does not mean REALITY…if people edited the insert I did on my area awhile back on you then it could be taken out of context…have you seen the hashtag “HootSuite”, TweetDeck, Monitter, Trendsmap, Google Feedburner, Klout, TweetLevel, Twitalyzer after some of the stuff you put out….have you ever seen your rating???…

        When I say facts another labels it biased opinions yet it is facts when it reflects this phase to my life that is ever-changing…I can tell you this Gary…there is always perceptions…we all share diverse ones here…let me ask you Gary, do you like roses? Not because in less than a week a Holiday is upon us…I would like to know if I said the word ROSES…what color? I think of Sultry Sangria Heirloom Roses or the Koko Loko…or the Smokin’ Hot…or the palest pink…https://img00.deviantart.net/f9b5/i/2013/193/f/9/thy_rarest_rose_by_marsiams-d6c14uv.jpg
        but we have to ask ourselves Gary when some are on IM saying we are all on the same page here; I sit back an ponder “are we on the same book though…” or can one read…or comprehend…do you know HOW MANY years it took me to comprehend Bob Powers and the infamous RTS, Gary…Yeah, something sooooo simple…I have some areas I am okay at…but alot more areas I never even discovered yet…My husband tonight when I was talking to Aclu fella when I hung up asked me “is your life always going to be about the fires” and I replied it really has no yet even begun…
        So I ask Gary that rose you are holding…are you seeing its beauty or are you focusing to the thorns…and the ooohhs and ahhhs…recently I learned to become one step closer to engaging in adult life vs. being a housewife hermit…I thought it long and hard (33 seconds) because in reality I cannot ever see me wondering if Omarosa’s edited conversation is TRUTH or NOT…but I can tell you if you believe your political rant made an impact on me…I think we all should worry about when the lights go out in Georgia…because Julie Chen took a pay cut just to get these folks on tv…
        44 y.o. Omarosa Onee Manigault should only be getting “happy birthday” from me as her bday just passed as far as my comments…Trump was not her first rodeo at the White House and you should know Gary her in 1990 there as a Deputy Associate Director in the White House…she has history…she is not a dumb lady and well calculated….Central State University is a historically black university located in Wilberforce, Ohio and she got her BA…in 97′ she started Studying M.A. from Howard University and then back to her white house job yet again…I like that God led her path to Aaron Harvey Stallworth…neat God blessed man…so whatever lies ahead FOR ALL OF US I feel pretty happy I know God is there waiting….Some of us walk away with degrees from community colleges or Universities or that school of hard knocks but no matter where we come from or where we are going I know one thing I am NEVER going to take the news from Gary because what a reality person says as GOLD but maybe by some backup water perhaps (just in case you are right ;)) hee hee
        When I hung out in CA, Gary and NO not with Norb or Bob but down in the areas you mention … I was playing a version of myself — a character — and with a nudge here and a shove there, it was clear what character these Hollywood folks wanted me to play and it was never ME…point is IT IS ALL FAKE…I didn’t feel it was a discredit to my true character because the situations that I was put in and the things I was asked to say were so far beyond my own reality that anyone I cared about who saw they knew ME…so I will let you have your jaw dropping rants as I insert a jaw breaker…really, OMAROSA Gary???? ugh. “oh my”

      • Gary Olson says

        Okay, forget about using Omarora to impeach President Trump. I would be lost without the daily sideshow he produces for us at this point anyway. Removing him from office sure isn’t worth a civil war. I always just shrug and remind myself, “Elections have consequences.”

        Maybe next time more people vote and those who don’t want another four years of a Trump Presidency won’t do really stupid things they thought were cute like casting protest votes for candidates who can’t possibly win like those idiots Sanders and Stein?

        I guess I like roses? I never thought about it before. I can’t think of a flower I don’t like since I try to be inclusive at this point in my life. And if I had to pick a color, I guess I would do like almost everyone else and pick red. And no, I don’t like thorns of any kind and I do try to avoid things that hurt me. And no, I have never seen my rating, I didn’t know we had one.

        • Joy A Collura says

          Gary-

          I was on hike and I tried to post via phone-
          no luck.

          Sun, Feb 11, 2018 at 1:22 PM

          Gary, I would never want to get a water Hemlock flower or the deadly nightshade flower and I reckon I think flowers are pretty outdoors but my mom likes them indoors for oxygen based reasons as she does Pilates and smokes Vantage 100s…I don’t get this world Gary…I am just making my way through it.

          I can say this RAIN is in the forecast here so I did alot of hiking this weekend to make up the miles I will miss…I am on the 5th week as of yesterday of the fast and about 5 hours were hard today because I do all this activities and yet not getting some results I would like as FAST as my head would like yet Gary maybe that is a safe good thing…anyways I plan to extend fast until my goal is reached but incorporating soon say mashed cucumbers or gentle on the GI kinda oxygenated foods…I never liked red roses…I rather for the price of those to be practical and get me an inexpensive Blue Chinese Wisteria Tree or purple Yankee Doodle lilac bush or OMG how about hydrangeas (mmmmmm)….and some day I want a specific pine tree young one…do you like trees more than you do roses? I do. If I had a choice between a thorny rose bush I would pick a tree first…or cacti…The hardest loss I have had was my massive…mine was in the top 3 in the state of Arizona but a 100yr flood washed and killed it…SAD FACE indeed…and my other fav that just died this year was my massive saguaro and Aloe Ferox and it the feroc was 5 feet tall and so beautiful…I miss her indeed. Well enough about plants…I am trying to figure how to use a drone and SMOVE this hour than crash…I tried awhile ago to sleep then I tossed and turned and said forget it let me go answer Gary but I did at 1:22pm just never made it but I saved it in my inbox to post so there ya have it…Good night..

            • Joy A Collura says

              na- na- na- na- na- (hum the McDonald’s your loving it theme song…)

              the YHF is not the only place LYING …I mean I was laying there thinking how hard it is to reduce the scale # when in the day it was super simple (age and health most likely)…and I have not been near a Mcdonald’s (Sonny’s favorite place to get senior coffee 2 and 2) in almost a year…I never liked McDonald’s and I am not lying there…just was easy for Sonny to split a meal there as he was always in a rush and thankfully the visit was 1 time a month on the first..(thank you Jesus)…my father loved Burger King and I could not stand that place either for that fake smelling grilled burgers; chemicals….My mom NEVER has stepped into a fast food for food maybe to use restroom but never drinks or food; she is a sit down kinda gal in a nice high dollar spot…anyways it made me think Gary…how many are lying in this world besides some on the YHF who hiding stuff is to me the same as some layer to a LIE…how many billions has been sold at McDonald’s and yet how many millions are living? Do the math, huh…Yeah someone is lying that they do not go there to McDonald’s…”just saying”…and we all know that place is just as bad as throwing down a Hot Pocket which I never was into but my brother Bill did as a teen and Combos pretzel filled nougats; pizza flavor while my other brother was a Twinkie fan…anyways after being on this fast I thought would I ever go to a fast food place again? I rarely ate out much except the hot spotting phase and well that is dead and buried and never would do that again but I thought what place would I go to for my first meal out and I always enjoyed my old living spots eateries like HASHTAG Cafe Monarch…mmmm….I am a bit strange as they come because I have no quarrels in the day to drop $200-300 on my meal alone there…their steaks are my thing…I am blood type O so steak is my thing really…anyways my palette is not for Mickie Dees…only had shared meals because it was Sonny’s thing—if you had not ate solids for 40 days or more Gary what would your first meal be?

              • Joy A Collura says

                As a kid Gary my family would tell you I was into not only climbing trees and identifying their common name but their scientific name and I would watch the weather and how they were treated each year and at age 4 I would water them if I felt they were not getting enough naturally. I was indeed a tree dweeb for sure—I fell out of many in my day too up in Pine Arizona my family would call my name and I would be so tiny and wave all happy at all of them so high up and as they looked at me so scared and I would just think I could fly so yes I did end up in emergency rooms here and there…I will show you a pic back channel some time…indeed a tree nut…and indeed not the brightest girl on the block yet bright in other ways…

                I
                H E A R T
                Trees.

                What is Woodsman up to anyways???
                retired yet 😉

                Sonny would say there is 2 kinds of trees too- the cord illegally cut in the back of his international
                https://www.dropbox.com/sh/gb0ax9cykwvrsav/AAC3HhPQPpMK8gqLUk1LTqCba?dl=0&preview=P1000177.JPG
                or the one he had not yet chain sawed-

              • Gary Olson says

                Your comment is awaiting moderation.

                Chicken noodle soup or whatever the experts recommend because your body is going to react negatively I think?

          • Gary Olson says

            Well…you certainly know a lot about flowers. And yes, I like trees, who doesn’t like trees? Although it sounds like there are some flowers I wouldn’t like and I do know of at least one tree I don’t like that some idiot thought was a good idea to plant all along the block fence sepersting the house from the street in Paradise Valley where we lived in during my first five year sentence in the Valley Of The Sun.

            Those were Russian Olive trees, because they didn’t need much water they seemed to be a favorite of desert landscapers in Land Of Mordor. I used to have to clean up around them and trim them. Talk about thorns, my arms would be streaming blood with the sweat…yes Woodsman, STREAMING blood I say.

            Although that reminds me of one of my old standby stories from NAU. They have a highly respected and well known school of Forestry there and people would sometimes say to me, “Say…you work for the Forest Service, what kind of tree is that? I would always reply the same way, “I’m a Firefighter, there are only two kinds of trees, those that are on fire, and those that aren’t. That one is the kind that’s not are fire.”

            Oh…and one more thing. I should have said the Trump Presidency reminds me of the Jerry Springer Show except the entire world is their stage and the cast of characters is infinite. Although I thought we had it all once Stormy Daniels was on set and we had see it all. But nope…they just keep coming.

            I don’t know about you RTS…but I’m not willing to give him a mulligan on that one even though the Evengalical leaders are. I know forgiveness is a cornerstone of our common Christian Faith, but I also know sinners have to first repent and atone for their sins…right? And President Trump hasn’t even admitted what he did much less asked the Lord for forgiveness. What do you think?

            • Gary Olson says

              Nahhhh…I screwed that stroll down memory lane up. That was bougainvilleas the landscapers planted everywhere on that lot in PV. Those things are really nasty with thorns. Pretty…but NASTY.

              I can’t remember now where I used to get hurt by Russian Olive trees? It will come to me and I will get back with uou on that one.

  11. Gary Olson says

    I posted this historical document (1977) to assist both Bob and RTS (and other US Forest Service old timers, it is in the shape of the USFS Shield) in taking a little stroll down memory lane.

    I pasted one on the inside of my hardhat underneath the suspension webbing when I started as a hotshot in 1975 so I could study it during breaks. Pretty good idea huh?

    I should have submitted that as an Employee Suggestion….or did everybody else think of that one too?

    http://ourfiregods.com/reserved1.html

    Like we discussed the other day, my favorite was always Number 10, which I also thought should have been Numba One. And technically…in support of my Minimalist Theory of Safety, if you always followed that ONE order, that was the only one you needed….right?

    I mean…it kind of sums up the other 9 plus all of the other safety advisories, guidelines, suggestions, standard operating procedures, general orders, policies, directives and recommendations…right?

    • Gary Olson says

      Oh…and one more thing. I have been watching wayyyyy to much news the past couple of days about this whole, “Memo” thing and how the FBI and the DOJ are corrupted by left wing people who let politics get in the way of them doing their jobs. And everyone who has been following this thread know I trash talked about the FBI, but that’s just because they think they know everything, but they don’t know how to go into the backcountry like those of us who have worked and lived in the backcountry our whole lives can and do. So anyway…I‘m pissed off, so it’s time for another one of my work stories because this is my only outlet to express myself and you are among my closest friends and confidants.

      President Bill Clinton and Vice President Al Gore went to the Grand Canyon in 1996 to sign the Presidential Proclamation creating the almost 2 million acre Grand Staircase – Escalante National Monument, that dumb ass President Trump has now greatly reduced in size. As you can imagine, having both the President and Vice President in the same place at the same time was a really big security deal involving hundreds of security people from dozens of agencies. Most of these were variations of special operations type tactical teams because they were covering mostly outdoor areas and uniformed people because they were assigned to static posts like in stairwells or wherever. I had just been instructed to bring both casual clothing and BDUs and show up in the high school gym at Tusayan at a certain time.

      I expected to be either guarding a tree or a doorway and I was good with that, it all pays the same as we used to say on the fire line. But when I checked in… they told me to go into a room off the gym and I found I had been selected to be the USDI departmental representative on the three person inter-agency React Team assigned to President Clinton’s security detail. The React Team was made up of a Senior Secret Service Special Agent, a Coconino County Sheriff’s Office Detective and me…go figure? But…I just rolled with it because you know, “Sometimes you eat the bar and sometimes the bar eats you.” (The Cowboy in “The Big Lebowski”) I didn’t ask any questions since I learned early in my career to never ask the question I didn’t want to know the answer to which at the time was, “Why aren’t I guarding a tree or a doorway?” The inter-agency nature of that React Team was necessary because of the specific and compartmentalized nature of our nation’s laws.

      The big deal was I got to be there when the President got off his plane which looked wayyyyy to big to be landing at the Tusayan airport and then I got to ride in his motorcade and hundreds of people were lining the streets waving to me as I went by; I felt very special and wanted. The only exciting thing that happened all day was some local Utah cowboys showed up with a big red, white and blue sign with a cartoon of the “Where’s Waldo” character that said, “Where’s OsWaldo?” as they were standing by their pickup truck on the motorcade route.

      It was really a very clever sign and they had put a lot of work into it, but they screwed up because they had hunting rifles just like every other Utah cowboys has in their truck, which combined with the funny but implied threat against the President and Vice President of the United States backed up by high powered scoped rifles, made it turn into a very bad day for them. This was because the Secret Service guy I was with didn’t think anything about it was funny at all. And you know me, I do what I am told to do just as long as it isn’t illegal, immoral or any of those other reasons RTS is always quoting. And having those rifles in a National Park was illegal at that time and that was my area of jurisdiction on land administered on behalf of YOU PEOPLE by the USDI…my employer at the time. And I always tried my best to ride hard for the brand.

      The only other exciting thing that happened as a result of that incident, is we weren’t where we were supposed to be when the President and Vice President got out of their vehicles at the historic El Tovar Lodge on the very scenic South Rim of the Grand Canyon. So we had to sprint from where we were with the cowboys on the entrance road to where the lodge was to catch up with the rest of the detail so we could be in position for the next problem, which thankfully never came. It was a good thing I wasn’t bullshitting you about not skimping on the Stairmaster because sometimes I did have to run or hike really long distances in the backcountry with a team, which was kind of like being on a fire with a hotshot crew, except we carried different tools.

      So anyway…I was jogging as half speed as we ran in and out between parked cars in a huge parking lot that was packed with vehicles. And as I zigged when I should have zagged between one car in particular, a man stepped out of the front passenger side just as I ran past the rear of his vehicle. I immediately applied my brakes in an attempt to make a full stop but as you know, I weigh a lot. And forward momentum (velocity) X mass (my body weight) and E=mc2 because of the loose gravel on the asphalt meant I came very close to crushing the man who stepped out of that car because his back was up against his open car door, which wasn’t going to open any further in his favor.

      Luckily for him (and me) I slid on the gravel and managed to stop just short of seriously hurting him but our noses were almost touching. Well technically…his nose was almost touching my sternum. It was another one of those weird moments in my life when my brain slowed down time by warping the space I was occupying and I saw his eyes get bigger and bigger the closer I got to him. By the time I managed to come to a complete stop…his eyes were about the size of small saucers. I was able to note one thing with interest as I was sliding towards him on the loose gravel, he had big blue eyes. The other thing I noticed as my mind once again took individual slides of what I was experiencing in slow motion with a…click…click…click, was the man with the big eyes was the actor Robert Redford who was attending the signing ceremony as a special guest of the President. The second good thing that happened that day, was they let us eat the fancy sandwiches after THOSE people were done eating lunch, because there were a lot of environmentally minded celebrities and political big shots there that day. But they had a lot of those little sandwiches and they were really good.

      So…I know what you are wondering by now, IF you have made it this far. WTF does this have to do with my watching too much news today and being pissed off…right? The point of this story is this; the React Team just spent a lot of time that day just hangin’ out wherever the President was shootin’ the breeze while we waited for somebody to do something stupid. And IF they had and they had been lucky, they would have got to meet us and not one of the sniper or tactical teams. And this may surprise you, but at the time I had not yet morphed from a conservative caterpillar into a more progressive butterfly by digesting myself and converting an amorphous mess of cell soup into eyes, wings, antennae and other body parts of an adult butterfly.

      And what is more…the Senior Secret Service Special Agent (who was Black or African American if you prefer) and detective (who was a standard Arizona White Guy) I was with, were also conservative law enforcement types and neither one of them liked President Clinton or Vice President Gore either. And so we spent part of the day bitchin’ about the damn liberals and you know…the damn Democrats. And while that was going on…I thought to myself, “What an amazing, wonderful and very special country I live in. Here I am hangin’ out with two guys I don’t even know and all of us feel free to complain about the politics of the people we were prepared to step in front of a bullet for without any fear…or even any concern of retaliation.” And today…I hope that very beautiful thing about our country isn’t changing?

      So the bottom line is this; law enforcement is no different than FIRE. I worked for 14 years in FIRE and 20 years in law enforcement without ever knowing or even caring about of the politics or party affiliation of any person I worked except by sheer happenstance. And I never met, or ever even heard about any person who ever, at any time, for any reason, let their politics or personal opinions interfere with their job and the mission…period. And if I did find out by accident, they were almost always conservative Republicans because of the nature of those jobs and the people in those jobs.

      There is ONE other thing that I witness that day that I found very interesting and humorous. Wherever the President or Vice President went, there was what they called Counter Assault Teams (CAT) very close to them. Even though I was prepared and willing to do my part and step in front of a bullet that day; not for President Clinton mind you, but for the President of the United States of America, I was pretty sure nobody was counting on me to actually save the day. And that is because I think they would loo to the CAT first.

      These guys looked really bad ass crammed into armored Suburban’s with full black ninja suits, body armor, black balaclavas and ballistic helmets. And I didn’t even want to know what kind of firepower they had in those Suburban’s because I didn’t want them to have to kill me. Except at one point, and that is when they jumped out of their vehicles, stripped off their hoods and helmets and ran over to pose for a group photo on the edge of the spectacular Grand Canyon. They were laughing and joking for a few minutes and they looked like a college football team on spring break. And then the moment was suddenly over…and they looked really bad ass again.

      And yes…IF you are wondering, IF I found myself in that same position today on a similar detail, I would take a bullet for President Donald Trump and you know how I feel about him. Not because he is President Trump; but because he is the President of the Untied States of America and everyone who is in the FBI, DOJ and every other serious American like most of you, would do the very same thing. So…lighten up on those agencies, they are staffed by patriotic Americans, just like you..

      Oh…and one more thing. When the detail was finally over and I left the Grand Canyon National Park, nobody was lining the roadway to wave at me as I went by so I didn’t feel particularly special or wanted any longer.

      • Gary Olson says

        And to round out my day, I did follow my old friend RTS’ advice and watch Fox News? To my surprise, anchor Shepard Smith said he thinks “The Memo” is a big “nothing burger” and anchor Neil Capitol said he didn’t know what to think?

        I have taken a couple of Xanax and I have had some shots of bourbon and just as soon as the Xanax kick in…I am even going to check in with Breitbart, Mark Levin, Michelle Malkin (because she is HOT) and Alex Jones to hear and read what they think about the memo.

        • Gary Olson says

          Neil Caputo, damn auto spell. What do you think RTS? Do you think Michelle Malkin is HOT and NASTY looking too?

          • Joy Collura says

            Gary…did the bourbon kick in…??? We know the Xanax did.
            Here is Michelle in her natural hot and nasty form RTS…please stick with Antastasia…Gary…she is a fire and I like Shell-
            She reminds me of an old co-worker during college Kaja…
            http://i.imgur.com/r00NtJU.jpg

            Well I love freaking life. Love it.

            • Gary Olson says

              No…they haven’t kicked in yet and this news cycle is driving me CRAZY!

              I’m afraid I am going to have to paraphrase Associate Justice of the Supreme Court, Potter Stewart when he said, “I shall not today attempt further to define the kinds of material I understand to be embraced within that shorthand description [hard-core pornography]; and perhaps I could never succeed in intelligibly doing so. But I know it when I see it, and the motion picture involved in this case is not that”

              So…I shall not attempt to further define what makes Michelle Malkin look so NASTY, but I know it when I see it.

              Although given that post and your earlier Email, I am starting to think you must be on…something?

              • Joy A Collura says

                Gary, I feel like I am on this fluffy cloud in Heaven….

                I am at my 4 week part of a 40 day fast—it is life changing.

                I mean serious I feel like I am “living” a book I would read….some kind of intense niacin flush that gives one a rush…

                I feel like the angelic plane I have reached…

                I am there.

                it feels like I can feel every single beat of my heart…

                the smiles that radiates my face feels so permanent…

                I feel how close we are to the TRUTH to the forefront…

                I feel like the part of my soul that was broken is just healing forever…

                its freaking contagious this smile of mine…it is…

                I was doing cartwheels and skipping down the Weavers today From Yarnell doing my 10 miles and getting texts from locals asking WHAT IS IT THAT HAS YOU CAPTIVATED?

                I want that they wrote.

                I move about like I am a fresh kid to life and jump up and down…it is too cool, Gary.

                I said I love life…I do…I like it because noone but you Gary get it…Xanax or no xanax…you get it…Moab Baby Moab…jeep trails baby…Sonny gets you Gary…he is out jeeping right now in NM…I think he is tearing NM a new hole…as much as he gets…and he is getting around…

                The GMHS shuttle bus driver had the hugest smile as I was twirling down the highway as he bussed the recent GMHS state park hikers back to Yarnell and his smile was HUGE as I was being so silly but I had just heard wonderful news…

                I have bumper sticker idea Gary —- “Fire & Desire”—

                I use to lay in the gray of my mind…where at time the blue haze would sting me…no longer…

                Gary —you ready..get set…START
                what is the first thing that comes to your mind when I say the word HEART?

                For me, I think of chemicals…not beer or whiskey…I have to admit and my dad will tell you if he was still alive I am an adrenaline junkie…to get my heart racing…that is about rare…a cardiac electrophysiologist will tell you as I do their tests and they are like ???? but recently I feel the thumps … we are so close to having the data be to the surface…so close…

                It is like we have all seen a 1000s winds blow…or that sun touch to the diamond glints on snow… adrenaline, epinephrine and norepinephrine; they are all pumped…do a 40 day fast, Gary…it will change you…

                you will love it and may it show you areas to your life you only imagined in your head as I have had in 2018…Mother freaker Gary…I am not kidding….I am for reals…the fast will change you.

                slow down (but not as much as Dr Ted Putnam)…enough to appreciate the blessings…smile and right now take in a deep breath…compliment one person today like say RTS since we both are always so hard on him here 😉 and focus on how awesome life is and name 3 things you are grateful for RIGHT NOW…

                me; what I am grateful for:
                1) way close to the T R U T H being a public display for the world
                2) being able to walk those 10 miles today and yesterday with a bad knee…bad groin…bad hip and one hell of a blister…but wasn’t wearing my Whites gary–shit…
                3) having no fear to open up an area I feared to do and that is a miracle…and not talking about recent times of skydiving…yet that event was nuts…but when I talked to my brother and my husband about how I need them to get me and allow me this moments because really I do deserve it…I do…

                was it you Sonny who said I am bad and that is good and I will never be good and that’s not bad ???

                Sense of humor…taste of adventures…may you have an open confident healthy glow…life is funny…most girls I met like the bad boys and they expect the bad boy to be just good to her and then the guys want good girls but be just bad for them…strange world huh…

                I will end this Gary by saying I am GLAD I have KNOWN sadness because it made for me to really appreciate pure happiness…I know what I am thinking would bother most cookie cutters especially in my own neighborhood…I do not care…have mercy on me…

                I can say this much…all the funds and time put out to make this time happen soon enough…all the books and movies in the world that have been made or still gonna will be like I just wish I would of waited to call this true story

                just saying…

                over…you turn Gary

                looking forward to see the people who were on that fire see their reactions…..I have to see if I can make that happen first….

                • Gary Olson says

                  Joy,

                  I am going to be completely serious right now and you need to read this. You are fuckin’ out of your mind crazy and if you were institutionalized right now they would have you strapped to a bed and on a feeding tube.

                  If your husband, brother and whoever else is in your real life love you they will have an intervention for you and get you some professional help and to a hospital like…right now.

                  And in this case, I am like our President Trump because I am like…a really smart guy who is using all the best words.

                  • Joy A Collura says

                    Joy,

                    I am going to be completely serious right now and you need to read this. You are fuckin’ out of your mind crazy and if you were institutionalized right now they would have you strapped to a bed and on a feeding tube.
                    ———–
                    I read what you wrote (I do not agree)…what have I said or wrote that qualifies me such way? Because I live away from the normal way to life and hike M-F on the Weavers trying to keep gaining fire data? Or on the weekends you may see me fixing my pc or out at the shooting range or watching a movie or visiting the elders in town? Or because I allow myself to let go and let God work on my physical in the ways it needs to for healing? I cannot figure out what I did to make you feel I am crazy? Because I challenge the IC of YHF and one day it wont be a challenge just another chapter to this here journey of truths because to “know” me…is to know truth and heart…not craziness….I am respectful to self and others and fair and kind…even with my husband who I have said is my best bud and I did not enter that area normally or traditional and my husband would tell you like when Sonny use to wear his tshirts inside out (who does that)…my husband always felt if I just turned my shirts inside out to normal than I would be alright but you Gary have no idea the haunts of my earlier life that in real time I should be “crazy” for what I have seen to life but I am not—but I do believe in truth…I just do not roll in life like others…mine is all about happy energetic in the moments not programmed stuff and my brothers and my mother will tell you Gary I just have a unique style in living life…some use chemical liquids to make their day “happy” and well I am naturally just that way…so you have your perceptions and maybe others feel like you do but I do not live my life like the world—I live it like a joyful Wonder Woman using truth lassos…hee hee…I am a happy person and I follow heart in my own life…so I respect your perception but I do not agree…
                    ————————–
                    If your husband, brother and whoever else is in your real life love you they will have an intervention for you and get you some professional help and to a hospital like…right now.

                    why? I do not get it. I reckon you never fasted for God before? I am doing good. Ask people here who have seen me…all is good…

                    And in this case, I am like our President Trump because I am like…a really smart guy who is using all the best words.

                    I am okay Gary…the only difference from 2017 to now is this fast and I have allowed God to use me and I agree there is a foreign newness but in the start of the year I had hard time getting going but now with the fast I am back to walking and the fast includes extracting oxygenated only nutrients and drinking alkaline water…I am watching Halle Barry in KIDNAP…I know what you mean about Heart Attack…I could not imagine to see my son be placed in a vehicle…intense highway scene…

                    • Gary Olson says

                      Joy,

                      Although I am not a medical professional, or no longer a professional of any kind, I am pretty sure a 40 day fast is very unhealthy and potentially deadly. Or could simply result in permanent damage, like I don’t know…the muscle around your heart?

                      And even though not being a professional of any kind includes being a mental health professional, I am pretty sure anybody who is convinced a 40 day fast is a good thing to do could probably be classified as fuckin’ crazy.

                      BUT…I learned a long time ago that arguing with you is a complete waste of my time, even though I do have a lot of time to waste.

                      And in any case, I have done what I think is right and what I can do, which is to state my concern. So…you go girl!

                      Just don’t try to tell me even if this experiment works out for you it was a good idea. And that is because even somebody playing Russian Roulette can get lucky five clicks in a row…but the sixth one will be a real bitch (non gender specific).

                      And in any case, none of that means playing Russian Roulette was a good idea in the first place, even if you get a click when your turn comes. I mean…didn’t you even see “The Deer Hunter?”

                      https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=OuGSXflBoWU

                    • Gary Olson says

                      Oh…and one more thing. I made a career out of pushing the envelope (which I do not recommend to others by the way) you scare me and I try to be fearless.

                      And when the grid goes down, I am going to beg you to save me, so…

                    • Gary Olson says

                      But…I’m not delusional since I know the weak link in my survival plan is the Internet won’t work when the grid goes down…so I might be screwed?

                    • Joy A Collura says

                      reply in bold below

                      Joy,

                      Although I am not a medical professional, or no longer a professional of any kind, I am pretty sure a 40 day fast is very unhealthy and potentially deadly. Or could simply result in permanent damage, like I don’t know…the muscle around your heart?
                      ——–
                      as for the heart that is why I walk 8 to 15 miles M-F—as for protein I take that in my extract of oxygenated greens which is by essential living and organic with hemp protein AND I am properly hydrated and oxygenated every day and if I was not— that is dangerous Gary— Fasting for 40 days is a great way to transform your Spiritual and physical health. I also do it for autophagy Gary…I’ve seen that it releases atomic power in the Spiritual realm…It’s a missing piece in many Christian’s lives today…ask how many Christians do it or have done it…most say that is old testament or simply no…Down through the years, Godly people who have done Mighty Things for God have testified to the necessity of prayer with fasting.(gonna copy and paste for a sec)…It is a way to humble ourselves before God (Psalm 35:13; Ezra 8:21). It brings revelation of our spiritual condition resulting in brokenness and change. It brings personal revival through the powerful moving of the Holy Spirit in our lives. It helps us better understand the Bible by making it more vital and practical. It transforms prayer into a richer and more personal experience. the Old and the New Testaments (see Isaiah 58:5, Psalm 69:10, Matthew 23:12, I Peter 5:6, and James 4:8-10). Humility is an attitude of the heart. “A broken and a contrite heart, O God, you will not despise (Psalm 51:17) (KJV).” God will hear us and respond to our cry when we come before Him in humility and brokenness–acknowledging and repenting of our sins, and asking Him to cleanse us by the blood of Jesus and to fill us with His Holy Spirit.

                      Fasting is not always the easiest godly discipline to practice. For those unaccustomed to it, going without food can be a struggle. The mental and emotional battles that may break out when we fast can sometimes be unsettling. Veteran fasters say this is a sure sign of the need to abstain from food and draw close to God. (end of Donna Partrow copy/paste)
                      ———————-

                      And even though not being a professional of any kind includes being a mental health professional, I am pretty sure anybody who is convinced a 40 day fast is a good thing to do could probably be classified as fuckin’ crazy.

                      I like to call it in tune with my mind and body and soul… you call it crazy…it’s all good 🙂
                      ————————————–

                      BUT…I learned a long time ago that arguing with you is a complete waste of my time, even though I do have a lot of time to waste.

                      it is never a waste of my time to engage with people seeking the truth to the YHF… also I do chew slow but not swallow until well chewed basil and mint and tomatoes so my jaw has the chewing action just so you know Gary and I use clear fiber so that area never fails on me during ketosis…but my husband will agree I am stubborn or hard-headed and yet if a NY pizza sat on my lap right now I might give up but go to Walmart or the places I have to choose for as eateries…not really too many around…however recently I did have the broth only part of ThaiPho at Tara’s in Prescott so I could socialize if that helps your psyche mentality of starving myself…I am a hermit but not ever second… and El Gato Azul made a very nice posole broth so I can socialize but I did not eat the matter in it but at Thai’s I had 3 tiny mini broccolis I chewed on and oh was it delicious…so YES I am not eating solids and yes I am staying FULLY hydrated and taking supplements to support the heart and skin and muscles…I am not an idiot…well I am when it comes to certain folks in this fire dealio…I mean last August should of never happened but it did and that person was probably thinking something a norm to me and it was just one whacked out day in its entirety and well I don’t error much like that but it is what it is…but I look at silver linings from bad situations anyways…thanks for the concern but doubt I will die from this…I feel too damn happy and good…but the fear of something else in me…but that won’t work…
                      ————————–

                      And in any case, I have done what I think is right and what I can do, which is to state my concern. So…you go girl!

                      I will go and take my sodium, potassium, calcium, phosphate, and magnesium supplements now 😉 and when I bring foods back in I will start with 10 calories of body weight per day…Supplement with thiamine and other B vitamins 30 minutes before breaking the fast ….supplement with phosphorous, potassium, magnesium, and sodium before breaking the fast. —–

                      Just don’t try to tell me even if this experiment works out for you it was a good idea. And that is because even somebody playing Russian Roulette can get lucky five clicks in a row…but the sixth one will be a real bitch (non gender specific).
                      in a sense Gary— this is not my first rodeo when it comes to fasting silly— how do you think I can be so intuitive…
                      —————–

                      And in any case, none of that means playing Russian Roulette was a good idea in the first place, even if you get a click when your turn comes. I mean…didn’t you even see “The Deer Hunter?”

                      yes I did see the movie and you said Streep should play me remember…I think so too…she is a hoot… but that movie is a classic… how about this: https://youtu.be/fUJmVEB58TQ

                      https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=OuGSXflBoWU

                    • Joy A Collura says

                      do not be scared of me Gary

                      I am noone to be scared about—
                      shit, you are the polar bear
                      not me

                    • Gary Olson says

                      Oh never mind. I just researched forty day fasts on the Internet and it looks like there is a variety of opinions and I’m pretty sure something has to be true before it can be put on the Internet so like President Trump used to say, “Who knows, who knows?”

                      At l east it doesn’t look like your body will consume your heart muscle. So…if you have that much willpower I should celebrate it with you rather than be like RTS and be a party pooper. So…good luck!

                    • Joy A Collura says

                      gary said-if you have that much willpower I should celebrate it with you rather than be like RTS and be a party pooper. So…good luck!

                      it is not willpower—you want to get better or you don’t…I was not even getting around and I was unsure if it was a rut or Winter hibernation laziness or food intake so I awoke and said reboot it all….and simple as that…why is it we always together pull RTS into our discussions…he is probably fast asleep…remember he is the normal one in this crowd not us…we stay up until late hours.

                    • Joy A Collura says

                      who is RTS to you Gary?

                      To me, he is the one to teach the lessons of responsibility, and lessons on associating, how to work for and with others, how to coincide viewpoints, and educate and organize others, and he has his core base and is not swayed…

                      and he works life through logic and facts…

                      he is confident.

                      Helps us here to explore our mental exploration sides and he gives us patience, time and effort.

                      He is a teacher of the fundamental natural laws.

                      I feel he is very independent and has a natural urge to initiate activities and is progressive by nature…

                      he not only has knowledge and understanding but he takes his time out and gives you the chance to absorb it at your own capability to learn the same.

                      His challenges if any is to understand the other peoples’ viewpoints if they are not balanced to his…

                      in some sense I feel RTS is responsible for you Gary and for Bob and even non industry me…to ensure we get what needs to be got…so he has a duty…I do believe in that alot.

                      I have found over the years him to be very generous of his time here on IM and in it he cultivates thoughtfulness by sharing his brilliant mind.

                      He has been original and resourceful (I know everyone now thinks I am talking about avatar wtktt but I am still on RTS)…

                      what I find to be stimulating is to see RTS here at IM engaging in group discussions often with Bob Powers right there with him as so many have challenged him but he never swayed..

                      he may say Gary I agree on this or that or I agree to disagree but overall he knows his shit…

                      I at times think my self-reliant independent thoughts make him flustered and the fact I dot…dot…dot…drives him mad…

                      I think he is about new challenges and opportunities…has a active relentless nature…I can see me doing menial tasks not RTS.

                      I can see him formulating new, more effective ways of doing things. Like my father, I feel if someone was to cause ill intent he would show caustic, irritable expressions but otherwise he really aims to educate not just himself but others…he is the right person to be in the area he is no matter what I heard months ago—“do not believe everything” others try to create— setups in life happen…I have seen it myself.
                      I strongly believe something going on in his life will flourish in 2019. so to sum one word CEMENT…he is the cement to your industry.

                      it is budding time for RTS
                      ——————

                      Now let me cover you Gary 😉

                    • Joy A Collura says

                      Now Gary— you know before I talk about you I will talk trash on me first—k…even the score up— I have a generous love for humanity and strong desire to be helpful to another. There is many depths that make me ME. I need to learn to develop emotion education (poor there; very unseasoned there) as well as giving more time to develop my intellect because as I know its there I sometimes am not mindful to try…I love being around philosophical older generation intellects vs fun party young folks…I have a deep appreciation for the outdoors and the beauties of nature. I have qualities of ingenuity and originality. My inborn independence and freedom side to me would be a versatile asset to someone needing every 10 days nurturing…and I am very pleased my plane is currently all about SELF expressing vs doing for another…like RTS should feel if he does not… I feel a duty and responsibility to this world to seek truth and ensure it come out…I am a very matter-of-fact person and I accept and get life as each day unfolds…I tend to disregard advice given to me and have no clue why I always been that way but always since a tot…so like I said earlier RTS does not like menial areas from my way of looking I do so I am the germinator ;)…so I am the one to take the time for the tedious stuff most would never ever…I am very sensitive worse than Gary…I am restless and can be creative…and one word to sum me up is MUD…I love mud…where that fits in have no clue but I wear mud about every time I go hiking…Mud acts as a physical barrier between my skin and the sun by blocking the sun’s UV rays. When the mud eventually dries out and cracks off, it leaves behind a residue that also blocks UV rays. The sun’s UV rays are constantly on the prowl for skin to damage. The white powder found on the aspen tree trunks has an SPF of 5…I like to learn the Earth and use it…vs chemical store bought stuff so I am very ancestral like—and I have a pet peeves like leaving lights on…my family leaves lights on growing up and it always bothered me and same with brushing my teeth or showering- I turn water off when brushing or washing…am I brain-washed because that is all self-taught because noone else does it….and I just trying to be picky…oh well…NOW TO GARY—>
                      ——————
                      Firstly, I think Craig is a kick ass guy and I am sorry…same with the lioness loss…and wishing your family at least one “gets” all you are and have done….you are a polar bear I know that much…Gary, you have a natural gift of self expression…which was to be developed to educate others…you are born to uplift and are for the betterment of humanity…you are to impart the heavy facts people cannot handle may it be philosophical or just the basic truths to life…you have a heart and mind for others…you are made to co-interact and shake the mundane ways to life…you are a natural born counselor…you use the power of language to bring happiness to people’s face even if at times its a “oh my” kind of smile you give the world. Great sense of humor especially in politics…you crack me up…you live to the maxim but you also LIVE TO GIVE…you are the one who can easily earn and learn the trust to just about anyne…so who is the scary one; you. hee hee You have an obligation not a duty to the people— you cannot be around folks like me too long due to the emotional imbalance I can radiate your way—you use better judgement than me 😉
                      You are free from monotony and limitations—you stretch the limits—you have some scattered efforts and one day Dr Ted Putnam may have a chapter in your book dedicated to him but hell Ted might have a book long before you and he is still on the Mann Gulch stuff…”just saying” You and RTS share the same stuff as I said to RTS would go to you as well…yet you are more of a serious thoughtful shrewd efficient business minded fella in areas RTS would not do what you do….I feel like you make the decisions in all of your life paths and not easy to sway…You and I share the same when it comes to independence and freedom and noone is gonna interfere that…you seem more like a stable settled guy that jokes about xanax and bourbon but maybe the Arizona Republic will do an article as a bourbon hound like they did old Sonny…so you get a world label like ol’ Sonny…I think you are serious in your private spots but the public display is another side…I worry about your head/sinus area; where RTS I worry about his gut areas…and I worry as you age about your eye health…

                    • Joy A Collura says

                      add-on or correction—

                      RTS if he sees harm– he is firm to correct you asap and not allow you to go at your pace— he sets you straight on SAFETY…lces…10 & 18…GROUPthink…etc

                    • Gary Olson says

                      Well…you are right about one thing, Ted will have his own chapter in my book, he has already written it.

                      It is the story of the Battlement Creek Fire from his perspective. I’m very fortunate to have it.

                    • Gary Olson says

                      My oldest daughter (who couldn’t keep Una) and my son in law have a German Short Hair Pointer. I dog sat him for a few weeks this summer when they moved and he is a really neat dog and I can tell that would be a good kind of dog to own. He is always hunting wherever he goes and whatever he does, he is always hunting. Una on the other hand was always in a moderate to high alert tactical mode.

                      And FYI…when Una leapt off that platform, she didn’t have any idea what was out there.
                      In the dark. She had never seen a raccoon before, all she knew is there were two of them and they were inside our perimeter and she was driven to protect us. For all she knew, there were two Velociraptors out there in the pitch black night.

                      And she still went because she believed that yea, though she walked through the Valley of the shawdow Of Death, she feared no evil because she thought she was the meanest and bravest one in the Valley.”

                      Which wasn’t true of course, but we all know if you have faith and believe in yourself, it will always go better than if you don’t. Una was an inspiration to me and a great watch dog. Una lived her entire life in Condition Orange and always positioned herself in a tactical position and was always looking for threats. If there were multiple entrances or approaches to wherever we were, she would choose where she could watch all of them (even if she has to expand her perimeter) at the same time and she would always place herself between me and the rest of the world.

                      And besides that, she didn’t have to be the baddest, all she had to do was alert me. I have the opposable thumbs and can rack the rounds and reload a bunch of different guns depending on where I am, what I am doing and what the threat level is.

                      I got tired of this news cycle so I started looking for GIF and memes for my website. And I found a perfect one for you, and a perfect one for me. I will post them later using my other computer.

                      I have learned my lesson about criticizing your fast, but I’m not sure you will be able to fast long enough to get rid of tumors or even shrink them down? I know this is a stupid question, but have you discussed your plan with a doctor who knows about tumors? Although just in case you are right, how long do you think I will have to fast to get rid of this tumor in my brain?

                      The following may be a repost, this tablet is a pain in the ass? But my computer sucks even worse.

                      Ted and I collaborated on the history of the BCF over several months a couple of years ago and he gave me a copy of his final product and permission to use it in my book. And I feel very fortunate to have his perspective on the fire. He was right there in the middle of it all. I was down at the bottom of the bowl that we burned out. I think it was many hundreds of acres? Anyway…it was big and steep.

                    • Gary Olson says

                      Although for a 20 pound Yorkie mix, two bad ass raccoons are almost as bad. As you know, those things have claws like tactical fighting knives. I mean she had some deep slashes, especially on her underbelly and I didn’t have anywhere near enough money for a vet at 5he time. I just bought a bunch of tubes of antiseptic cream and changed the bandages a lot, but I couldn’t do anything about the puncture wounds but she was up to date on her shots. I did think she was a goner and on her way to Valhalla.

                      I didn’t have much money because my wife left me for 18 months right after I retired. So I have already had my practice run. Now…I don’t give a fuck. It’s been over forty years, but it seems like it has been much, much, much longer.

                    • Gary Olson says

                      Oh…and one more thing. That basket I took a photo of Una In wasn’t her bed. That bed belonged to my youngest daughter’s Toy Fox Terrier who was a real little bitch who was always snarling and snapping at Una. But Una had quickly learned she couldn’t fight back so she retaliated by taking naps in that little bitches bed so she couldn’t use it. When Una went to sleep, she always slept in a hallway so she could guard all of the bedrooms at once, or where hallways intersected or a central area so she could watch all points of ingress or egress into the house I’m telling you, she was 20 pounds of tactical energy just waiting to explode. She also changed her position several times a night to confuse and disorient whatever may have been watching her from the shadows to confuse it. I’m telling you, that dog was scary smart. If she would have had opposable thumbs, I would have gotten her her own little gun with a laser sight and a backup tactical knife and then she would have been the biggest bad ass in the Valley Of The shadow of Death.

                      “Blessed is she, who in the name of charity and good will, shepherds the weak through the valley of darkness, for she is truly her brother’s keeper and the finder of lost children. And she will strike down upon thee with great vengeance and furious anger those who would attempt to poison and destroy her brothers….Badass!” (Pulp Fiction)

                    • Gary Olson says

                      Oh…and one more thing. Una’s favorite quote she liked me to repeat for her is, “In Your Darkest Hour When The Demons Come Call On Me Brother And We Will Fight Them Together”

                      Okay, enough about my fuckin’ dog, she is waiting for me in the Great Hall of my people in Valhalla. I just have to try my best to be worthy to join her.

                    • Joy A Collura says

                      I totally get you there—
                      I have been a goofball lately huh

                      even my neighborhood pals and elders noticed—

                      I guess yoda is me huh

                      and you right I do have life all backwards and in some odd order yet I just finally fulfilled my bucket list and this Saturday will be my 5th week of the fast—

                      pretty cool willpower for Yoda indeed

                    • Joy A Collura says

                      and as for Bill Murray- that is how I feel about my foias and public records—– same pond but HUGE redundant game mess they played me

                    • Joy A Collura says

                      do you think I can one day be a Jedi or will I always be making my way through the dark side of life Gary….

                    • Joy A Collura says

                      Gary, one thing I know in this aftermath=

                      there is alot of lies…alot of misleads…

                      Yet I am human and I live from my heart not what the world expects me to do…not even anywhere near traditional…

                      I would like to start a tradition and change mine and Sonny’s bucket list to what one felt was a more uplifting phrase and call it a LIFE LIST…so there you have it Gary…the only bad part is on my LIFE LIST I want know list just live the unexpected and spontaneous hours…breathing in good exhaling any toxic left in me….

                      By the way Gary—how the heck are you doing lately—
                      What made you think of Yoda today? and to post it here?

                      I know, bored huh-

                      I know it was not the Xanax or bourbon…Yoda is pure 😉

                      here is a bumper sticker idea for you:
                      https://anewkindofhuman.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/12/803e86052f46b83569a8942c976057b9-zen-art-yoda-quotes.jpg

                    • Gary Olson says

                      Thank God for the Trump White House Reality Show. It’s very entertaining, a little scary…but very entertaining.2

                    • Gary Olson says

                      I said the Bill Murray meme was for ME not YOU. Not everything is all about YOU.

                      1.. I think Bill Murray is really funny.

                      2. That is how I feel most days, I don’t have some or any of my ducks in a row, but they are all in the same pond. So..;I do have that going for me.

                      I’m not even sure what a “meme” is?,

                • Gary Olson says

                  Ted and I collaborated on the history of the BCF over several months a couple of years ago and he gave me a copy of his final product and permission to use it in my book.

            • Gary Olson says

              Nope…way to young for me to even admire from a distance. The furthest I will go is the young people doing “Shuffle Dance Steps” to Haddaway’s “What Is Love”, (that I posted for RTS because the girl at the beginning blew him a kiss) which is a timeless song made famous in the classic movie, “Night At the Roxbury”,

              https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JRVfysTXhNA

              Here is my favorite video of dance steps…another timeless classic.

              https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_IvnPB5vLDk&list=RD_IvnPB5vLDk&t=97

              Whoops, the Xanax are starting to kick in…gotta go.

              • Gary Olson says

                Okay…time for just one more. One time Una and I were camping out and two raccoons were raiding our camp in the middle of the night. I kept telling her everything was okay and we didn’t care, but before I could grab her, she jumped off the sleeping platform I had in the back of my Jeep and engaged those damn raccoons in a death match.

                By the time I scrambled out of the back of the Jeep, they were all locked in mortal combat in the pitch black night. Those raccoons where shrieking like banshees straight outta hell and Una was snarling and howling to boot.

                I started kicking where the screams and shrieks were coming from and eventually flew up into the air and landed on top of Una and then the raccoons were able to escape into the night.

                Una was cut up pretty bad and she was a bloody mess when I picked her up. I thought I was going to lose her for a few days…but that crazy little bitch eventually pulled through. But she never stopped challenging anything and everything that got in our way and violated whatever perimeter she has set in her mind…man or beast, she was fearless and CRAZY.

              • Joy A Collura says

                classic movie, “Night At the Roxbury”,

                Gary, what is truly funny about above is on the Seaside Shore in the early 90s there was guys really like that at the clubs…and I remember this guy who was training to be a FBI agent asked me to go outside get out of the noise and as we walked out my heel broke and one of those kind of guys in that flick begged for my broken heel and I said take the whole pair…they had a freak dance with those heels like in the flick that went on local tv station news…me and Rich cracked up…Rich was good friends with the girl Lisa I went with to the club (we loved to dance)…we walked the boardwalk and went out on the house boat and talked about his ex and at the time I was going to movies with his famous movie critic mom and those messed up guys who had my heels came on the boat and did that freak dance again…now I know WHY Gary I moved to a ghost town in the desert where most just keep dropping like flies around here since the fires away from those freaks….and at Bumper’s – Clifton, (part of a hotel on Rt. 3) NJ (now a Red Robin) and Bloomfield NJ you saw the Greek guys like those 2…it was hilariouuuuussss Gary. You couldn’t make that shit up…well SNL did but it was real stuff happening back then…

                Thank you for the bluegrass link…I will show my mom…we use to every year have a family reunion in September in Mississippi and our family got down with the banjos and got ripping…dancing and all…I sure miss dancing…that was the only reason I went to clubs because you knew you can dance for hours on end and that was fun…Gary, do you remember Rockin Rodeo in Tempe or The Mint…Rockbar or Talking Sticks…those were great dance places in the day…Club Tribeca…or how about old school The Devil House or same place later Club Rio…what was the place my brother and I would go dance and hang out at…oh yeah Mill Ave…him and I together on the dance floor…we had people moving…anyone remember Dooley’s? (Apache Boulevard in the 70s/80s) My pops took us kids to the Yucca Tap Room…do you remember that place?

                • Gary Olson says

                  Joy, I pray this post finds you…NOT DEAD!

                  1. I have been on some crazy diets in my life that ultimately proved unsuccessful in the long run, but I am pretty sure you have taken it to the next, and perhaps the final step of Arizona Road Lizard CRAZY!

                  2. A 40 day fast? No thank you, I can think of a lot of better ways to die, or at least put my life on the line.

                  3. What comes to mind when you say “heart” at my stage in life? “Attack.”

                  4. Sonny has the right idea, I always liked the sunsets in New Mexico. I think it had something to do with the wind and red dust of the Navajo Rez between me and the setting sun. I also really liked the way the setting sun played off the snow during the Magic Hour in the Sangre de Christo Mountains above Santa Fe.
                  maybe I will follow him?

                  5. It must have been Sonny who said that, although I like it and I will start using it.

                  6. I did manage to find the right balance between Xanax and bourbon last night so I was able to check in with most of RTS’ echo chamber news sources last night regarding “The Memo” and it’s just as I thought…they are still Texas Road Armadillo CRAZY.

                  7. No…I didn’t go to any of those places. If I was goofing off in Phoenix it was with some guys from the crew…and we went to dance places, but not those kind.

                  8. And in case anyone is wondering. and I’m pretty sure you’re not, I never went looking for any dog much less a crazy Yorky mix who thought she wa a lioness trapped in a small dog’s body. I had to really watch out for her because although she had the heart of a lioness, she still had the jaws and teeth of a Yorky. So she was pretty good at starting fights she couldn’t finish. She was a rescue dog from my oldest daughter who couldn’t visit her apartment enough times to take care of her…and then on her way to a new home, she decided she was my dog. I had her for 13 of her 14 years. Bob told me what it would be like to lose her a long time ago…and he was right. She’s actually been gone for several months now., you know…so **** It!

                  • Gary Olson says

                    Correction, I didn’t “lose her”, I followed Bob’s advice and let her go.

                    And yes, I like clogging. I just wish I could do it. I wrote a long time ago I liked it ever since I fought fire in North Carolina. And you know…I fought fire from an office so of course it was mandatory that we party like Salamander Huggers and Biches (non gender specific) at night.

                    • Joy A Collura says

                      MY REPLY IN BOLD

                      Joy, I pray this post finds you…NOT DEAD!
                      Oh ok Gary…I do daily urinalysis and PH tests and it is quite an interesting thing to watch different hours be so perfect and others be like hurry up like really hurry up (the storm of it)….it has its moments the 40 day fast— yet I am very much alive Gary and it is life changing and if my tumor is not dissolved at 40 day mark I am extending it either until tumor is gone and the one is 75% gone and is not a grapefruit size but the size of the old toy silly putty egg container and that gives me hope to keep at it…sometimes it takes longer than 40 days…the only time I missed emotionally eating food was last Sunday when I thought an area was closing (emotion based) and last night was my 1st day of hunger pangs…and I always say do it under medical supervision if you do it…

                      Sonny is near T&C areas right now…probably in the hot springs…his cousin and him have been enjoying life…I was so pleased to hear he has trailed wherever his trails took him

                      1. I have been on some crazy diets in my life that ultimately proved unsuccessful in the long run, but I am pretty sure you have taken it to the next, and perhaps the final step of Arizona Road Lizard CRAZY!

                      I wish it was a diet but it is not…it is to bring the final clearing before the truth is presented Gary…a 40 day fast should reflect as a reboot to the system…if it was for diet reasons I would of gave up already because the weight does not drain off on the fast like one would think because it is working too much on alkalizing the body and removing the tumors and t cells.

                      2. A 40 day fast? No thank you, I can think of a lot of better ways to die, or at least put my life on the line.
                      it actually helps your life if you do it proper

                      3. What comes to mind when you say “heart” at my stage in life? “Attack.” you and Sonny both

                      4. Sonny has the right idea, I always liked the sunsets in New Mexico. I think it had something to do with the wind and red dust of the Navajo Rez between me and the setting sun. I also really liked the way the setting sun played off the snow during the Magic Hour in the Sangre de Christo Mountains above Santa Fe.
                      maybe I will follow him? he would enjoy that…he tends to like Grants NM for nostalgia so maybe you can meet at the junkyard bar in Grants…

                      5. It must have been Sonny who said that, although I like it and I will start using it. it does sound like Sonny

                      6. I did manage to find the right balance between Xanax and bourbon last night so I was able to check in with most of RTS’ echo chamber news sources last night regarding “The Memo” and it’s just as I thought…they are still Texas Road Armadillo CRAZY. I think alot of the media is fluff and you have to answer me this Gary for the bleachers…what are you going to do when the power grid is down?

                      7. No…I didn’t go to any of those places. If I was goofing off in Phoenix it was with some guys from the crew…and we went to dance places, but not those kind. oh my than you probably saw my giant dad there

                      8. And in case anyone is wondering. and I’m pretty sure you’re not, I never went looking for any dog much less a crazy Yorky mix who thought she wa a lioness trapped in a small dog’s body. I had to really watch out for her because although she had the heart of a lioness, she still had the jaws and teeth of a Yorky. So she was pretty good at starting fights she couldn’t finish. She was a rescue dog from my oldest daughter who couldn’t visit her apartment enough times to take care of her…and then on her way to a new home, she decided she was my dog. I had her for 13 of her 14 years. Bob told me what it would be like to lose her a long time ago…and he was right. She’s actually been gone for several months now., you know…so **** It!
                      same here Gary- every pet here was once at Sonny’s place…I never thought I would have a tiny dog myself…I am a hunting type dog like a german pointer dog and if I ever got one it has to be a pure breed w/ papers with certain pattern like this pup:
                      https://gfp-2a3tnpzj.stackpathdns.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/07/German-Shorthaired-Pointer-Puppies-For-Sale-600×600.jpg and some day I will get one…my grandpa had one and I always wanted one…I see me as an old lady owning one later down the road…

                  • Gary Olson says

                    Oh…and one more thing. I wasn’t the only one who noticed how the red sunsets were reflected off the snow in the Sangre de Christo Mountains above the City of Holy Faith during the Magic Hour because that is why the Spanish Conquistadors named them the Blood of Christ Mountains in the first place.

      • Gary Olson says

        And thinking about hiking for long distances in rugged and steep terrain in the backcountry with a Special Operations Team was like being with a hotshot crew on a fire except the tools we carried were different and the overall objectives were different made me think of a photo.

        And you know me, when I can post one of my photos to illustrate a point…I like to do it. So I posted my favorite “hero” photo of me in the type of helicopter I had an unnatural attraction to…a Vietnam Era Bell Iroquois “Huey.” I love those helicopters and those of you who flew in them or 206’s and especially the Bell 212’s and 214″s know that familiar and distinctive sound of their rotors beating the air into submission, “Wop .wop .wop wop.”

        I spent the first half of my LE career in Huey’s and the second half in Sikorsky UH-60 Black Hawks, but I never fell in love with the UH-60 helicopter like I did with the Huey’s. They aren’t proportioned right…know what I mean, their tails are to damn long? I guess they have to be for aerodynamic reasons, but they are ugly?

        But forgive me, I digressed. So check out the photo and you will see at my feet the very same green North Face tear drop day pack I carried for years as a hotshot that I liberated from the USFS and pressed into service on behalf of the BLM.

        And to keep things equal, I posted one of my favorite “hero” photos of me with a wildfire. It was pretty hot where I was standing, but you can see the wind pushing the flames with dark smoke parallel to where we were cutting hotline.

        I don’t know why young men like to take hero photos with fire (except for RTS, he isn’t full of himself), maybe it’s like counting coup and smacking your enemy with physical contact without engaging it in actual combat?

        That’s why I now think all hotshot crew bosses should be women. I have never met the woman who I would recommend as First Pulaski (I’m not saying they don’t exist, I’m just saying I haven’t met her…yet), but I have met a lot of women who would make good hotshot crew bosses. Partly because you can count on them to never yell, “HEY…WATCH THIS!”

        And I posted another photo of my best Jeeping buddy because I could. She (Una) was tired after a tough day of Jeeping with me in the backcountry. I mean…how cute was she? Una didn’t have any idea she was cute, she thought she was a lioness trapped in a Yorky mix’s body on steroids.

        http://ourfiregods.com/reserved1.html

      • Gary Olson says

        Me too, short brim Bullard. Were you a round brim Bullard or short brim man? I know RTS was a round brim Bullard man because they standardized theirs the way I remember it. I gave everyone a choice because I promoted and valued the expression of individualism whenever and wherever possible.

        That sawyer we had was lucky he was a round brim Bullard man or he might have cut his throat, and it was a night shift wayyyy up in the mountains. He wasn’t medevacced until the next day because as you know our slicks weren’t flown at night.

        The old Flagstaff crew boss (Mark Zumwalt, I bet RTS knew him) at about that time did cut his throat limbing a tree on project work, but he got control of it in the nick (no pun intended) of time.

        • Gary Olson says

          I doubt they let anybody wear those old aluminum Bullard anymore because of lightning…maybe? But I bet the old timers fought hard to keep them. They were a lot lighter for one thing, but of course style and status. were the biggest reasons.

          Our standard issue were the new plastic Bullards after about 1979; but guys were always watching for the metal ones at flea markets and garage sales and quite a few of them had them.

          • Bob Powers says

            It was the short one. Had it till around 1990 when the full switch to Plastic happened. Never knew or herd of any one getting hit by lighting that wore one. We were seldom around power lines back then either..

        • Robert the Second says

          Gary,

          Nice faux pax. This statement smacks of utilizing a Participatory Leadership style.

          “I gave everyone a choice because I promoted and valued the expression of individualism whenever and wherever possible.”

    • Robert the Second says

      Gary,

      Regarding Fire Order Number 10 – Fight fire aggressively having provided for safety first. you posted: “… if you always followed that ONE order, that was the only one you needed….right?”

      “I mean…it kind of sums up the other 9 plus all of the other safety advisories, guidelines, suggestions, standard operating procedures, general orders, policies, directives and recommendations…right?”

      Yes it does sum up the other 9 orders, however, you have to already know those Fire Orders and apply them. So then, I agree with you in part and disagree in part, with both you and the Woodsman that we can get away with only one.

      • Gary Olson says

        And yes of course I agree with you, all of them must be known and applied, or you will end up dead. I was just taking it to the extreme to illustrate the point that technically, if you always provide for safety first in every situation, you will have it covered. I have never disagreed or challenged the Ten, I didn’t even use the challenge or ever question the Thirteen. I only started rolling my eyes when they took those to Eighteen and now it’s way beyond that. I am just trying to say that I really think Paul Gleason was on to something.

        • Bob Powers says

          Making # 10 #1 was for a reason to me although in reverse of the safety first being a reminder at 10. As #1 it would have set the stage for the 9 safety directions that followed.

          No one that I ever knew ever believed that we could NOT fight Fire Aggressively and still provide for Safety. As Wild Land Fire Fighters we always attacked the Fire Aggressively and provided for Safety First..

  12. Robert the Second says

    Bringing this up out of the weeds as they say.

    This is a VIMEO video from a contract Engine Crew on the 2012 Holloway Fire in Nevada and southern Oregon. It is subtitled: “… we saved the Granite Mt. Hotshot buggies from burning up!” by Oregon WF Colby Drake – the video was later removed from VIMEO site. and you cannot find this video clip anywhere else.

    The GMHS engaged in Bad Decisions with Good Outcomes THREE TIMES on the Holloway Fire (2012) in Nevada; what they referred to as the “Nevada Fire” during their PFD ‘public record’ Squad Boss interview when the candidates were asked to give an example of ‘good leadership’ on a fire.

    On two separate occasions, they posted no lookout(s) and the fire basically snuck up on them and they then had to fire out around themselves and their Buggies. They downplayed it by saying “… everything turned out alright.”

    Another time on the same 2012 Holloway Fire, they were fortunate to have a contract Engine Crew save their Buggies because they parked them in the unburned and left nobody behind.

    Go to (2:40-3:25), TURN OFF THE VOLUME in order to concentrate on what is occurring. Watch as the Engine Crew (one wearing a helmet cam) videos as the nozzelman squirts water on the flaming grass and sage brush, Then you see the GMHS Buggies come into view and notice the fire has jumped their road and/or dozer control line, with flames within about 20 feet of one of the Buggies.

    As the nozzleman moves back to the left, concentrate on the upper left part of the screen and you will notice a handline adjacent to the black. Then begin to freeze-frame through the images and you will notice a GMHS with a black hardhat running downhill, down the handline in the upper left screen.

    This is best visible when the nozzleman’s hardhat aligns with the handline in the upper left of the screen.

    http://vimeo.com/48411010

    The FIRST time someone else ‘saved’ the GMHS Buggies was on the 2012 Sunflower Fire (TNF) when they had parked their Buggies on the road above an unburned bowl of chapparal that was heating up. A HS Supt warned the GMHS and offered to move them, however, Marsh declined the offer.

    McDonough later admitted in one of his interviews that “they took a little heat.” This was also reflected in the GMHS Crew video as they drove past flames coming up from below the road. I was unable to locate this video on YouTube any longer.

    The SECOND time someone else ‘saved’ the GMHS Buggies from burning was on the 2012 Holloway Fire depicted in the VIMEO video clip above.

    The THIRD time was when the BRHS ‘saved’ them on the YH Fire the morning of June 30, 2013.

    In addition, the Holloway Fire was where the Zuni HS Crew filler deployed her fire shelter because she was getting overrun by the fire when she got separated from her Crew. The Holloway Fire SAIR is on the Wildland Fire LLC and has been posted on IM in the past.

    The similarities of fuels, weather, topography, fire behavior, and HUMAN FACTORS closely mirror what took place on the YH Fire, which includes them having to fire out around themselves because of no lookout, the contract Engine Crew ‘saving’ their Buggies, and the ZUNI HS fire shelter deployment.

  13. charlie says

    Wow. I didn’t know that 10 died in the last month. That area is contaminated and shouldn’t have been open for hiking. Trouble is we didn’t know all this until time elapsed. Had we known we certainly wouldn’t have like that area after the dumps.

    Maybe people can start realizing how dangerous to health those retardant dumps are
    The human body is very resilient. You know that looking back I have been through so many different injuries and even illness that would tax the survival-ability of just about anyone. But as time goes on our immune defenses and organs become compromised. You know from my uranium mining I have had well beyond 20 cancers removed from my body including tumors of melanoma and carcinoma period fact I’ve lost track of how many there are. Of course working Underground you breathe plenty of dust, diesel smoking a lot of those mines especially Union Carbide at the church Rock Mine, Dynamite explosion fumes also loaded with ammonia, the many heart attacks I’ve had, and yet my brain works enough to keep me going. The point is that the older we get the more compromise we are from the many things that may have happened to us and the many pollution we are exposed to

    Yesterday is dead and gone, tomorrow is but a dream, today is all I have.
    Life Goes On and we have to make the best of it today. I’m not finish just yet, but sometimes I feel like I am. Take heart, there’s one thing certain, things will change.
    Happy trails. I count myself more the fortunate 4 knowing you, Joy. You make me smile and laugh. I guess I’m too simple. My advice on divorce is don’t do it. and why do it. Yet you are always welcome back on the trails with me. Gary would agree, you should be raising hell with old Sonny here. I need someone to work the wood burning stove. You can chop and load wood. Bad hernia here. Dogs aren’t much good for that. You are the finest person I have ever met or will know. Nobody can know how special you are as much as me. I mean what man in the world not even your husband can say he saw you in an extreme snow blizzard in the freezing cold in my outdoor shower with freezing water. You are some kind of Eskimo. (or) in the freezing blizzard chopping up wood and stacking it up the entire day until dark as I drank my Guinness or my snow cone whiskey bowls. My dad said the french men did that kind of thing. Make the woman work while the men watched and drank beers. My dad use to call certain ladies “40” as him and his pal buy a bucket of beer when they passed 2 stories buildings the ladies would peak their head out and say .40 cents today; 80 cents tomorrow. They were prostitutes. Times sure have increased. Beer was a nickel a bucket in the Chicago area and the ladies only cost 40 today 80 cents tomorrow. what a bargain. You are really just like one of the guys in alot of ways but definitely one of a kind. May the Irish Gods keep you well, prosper, and just know we all here care about you.

    Too many of them are brainwashed into believing what the big money corporations want them to believe. Get that retardant killer away from our populations. Certainly there are a few so-called Elite individuals who believe it is okay to kill off the elderly, with the exception of themselves when they are elderly. In fact the elderly are a precious commodity to this world. They are bastions of experience and knowledge to pass along to those younger folks. That is just proven by reading the post on investigative media where the older retired bosses share their knowledge and wisdom with the younger men in their profession. Gary, RTS, Bob, Rocksteady and Norb. Hope you are doing good.

    Good Lord Joy that is just too damn many people to die in that short of time. You can see that both you and I have suffered from the retardant. Me more than you I think because I’m older but you have gotten some bad effects from it as well. It’s amazing how people have skirted the issue.

    I think the other thing beyond the death of the 19 firemen are the deaths of over a hundred and twenty of the elderly in the Yarnell area. Seems that people turn their heads when you mentioned that the more than 500,000 gallons of retardant dumps surrounding Yarnell and even on top of some residences watch the main contributing factor to those deaths. Anyone that wants to Google the retardant will find that it emits a deadly gas. When tank cars will that ammonia gas break open whole communities have been evacuated. It is highly poisonous and a killer to the lungs which never regenerate. Most elderly people are already compromised in their lungs. Not only that, ammonium nitrate and phosphate when applied to a fire or and burning Embers produces cyanide. Of course cyanide gas was wants you to kill prisoners. And the old way to make cyanide was to apply this ammonium phosphate and nitrate 2 charcoal Embers to make cyanide. They got a different method these days but the old one work very well and the cyanide is used to release gold from sulfide ores. So you see the forest service and the powers-that-be as well as the Israeli companies that make billions of dollars out of selling you the 95% ammonium nitrate sand phosphates that are dumped on you are not about to tell you the truth of how poisonous and dangerous their concoction is. Fortunately these days the internet has educated many people who are interested to be informed of the truth. The truth is sometimes hard to find but it is there if you can wade through the lies.

    Dumping of retardant should be labeled the killing of the elderly. This is Germany all over during the Third Reich. Get rid of those that have low-iq and those that are ill at physical labor and the j e w and any of those that do not accept the f u e r e r ideas and commands. You and I would have been top on the list to add to the death list. Pointing out the death of the elderly would have been against his will

    retardant is killing lots of people but it’s being kept Under Wraps kind of like the truth of the 19 deaths. Yes a dirty bomb would have been safer then the retardant dumps they made. Either way Yarnell should have been evacuated for quite a long time until the effects of the retardant we’re totally washed away. It is a fine thing to draw attention to that retardant problem. Despite the obvious deaths of people in the aftermath of those retardant dumps people are looking the other way as if these deaths never happened.
    You see most of those firemen do not believe that retardant is at all dangerous. It kind of reminds me of the uranium mining where they had us brainwashed that low-grade uranium was not dangerous at all. Fact of the matter is one molecule of plutonium is all that is needed to start a cancer and there’s a certain amount of plutonium amongst the pitchblende uranium radiation. Always you will find that when big money is involved, the corporations operate without conscience.

    Yes it would have been wise for and the whole town to be evacuated much like an area of radiation. I think the death toll is even higher than if Yarnell had been struck by radiation. Radiation is a slow killer if you get past the original blast where as this retardant has been Swift to kill its victims.

    The Irish and leprechaun green. That guy is set up for St Patrick’s Day. And Ireland it be called The Emerald i s l e. Emeralds are beautiful Stone mostly come from Brazil. An emerald stone can approach the prices of diamond and to me it’s a more beautiful g e m. I bought another one of those recorders like the one I gave you Joy. But it’s a complicated I couldn’t record like I wanted to On My Guitar so went down and bought one of those cheap type that you put a cassette in and that damn thing sounds garble so I got to take it back to Walmart. That is unlike you to hear the news of your divorce. Must be something because your animals are your world. Your husband is what did you call him “Your Rock”
    I would have to calculate this as a rare moment of emotions. Is it your health? your fast? May the Irish Gods keep you well.

    The comments lately on IM are more of a personal discussion among friends and cohorts and people involved in the fire industry. I can imagine couple of old ladies who follow here have probably quit posting after recent times. Wives appalled.

    Those kind of discussions are fine among friends privately but I didn’t see that the content is going to benefit the promotion of finding out the truth about the death of 19 young firefighters. It is True the tragedy always brings forth some levity. You see people at funerals laughing.

    All things being said the truth is hidden because of politics. Someone up top decided it would be better to hide the truth than exposed those people whose reputation would be ruined. Someone wants to make wildland firefighter bosses look clean. But there was a lot of dirty work there in killing those men. So someone’s covering their own ass as well as comrades asses. Marsh & steed carry a heavy burden when they killed those men under them. But the public was done no justice by being fed a lie and young Wildland firefighters who risked their lives daily in the land of fire fighting are shorted.*

    • charlie says

      Hope you are doing good, Wants To Know The Truth.

      I speak in my phone.

      So forgive the punctuation and English errors.

      Some of the school teachers that watch this they’re going to grit their teeth.

      Where is Ms. Lomas by the way?

    • Joy A Collura says

      Thu, Jan 25, 2018 at 5:56 PM Gary is right. he gives terrible advice. 😉 My husband thought I was joking when I brought it up like I saw it on Candid Camera episode or something. ??? I was just trying to do right…if Gary can…why not me…I am about the same time in as Gary…I liked his reason so I ran with it…it did not even reach first base on believable at Date: Jan 25, 2018 12:08 PM….what kind of skills you got to pull that off—let me know back channel…I get laughed at…Well, Sonny is right. Probably because he heard it over and over for over six years…my husband is my best buddy…it confuses many over time…but early on I married my best friend…literally…I am not looking for trouble nor wanting trouble to find me…however this week was an odd week that I had know clue how to vlog that…but I can tell you this get well Paul My brother has his brain tumors in same areas as me and he got knocked real bad with pneumonia and I am less than 24 hours from me being at my 2 weeks of fasting of a 40 days fast…nice…I have had about over 30 hours of rough moments overall I think doing good; thumbs up. One guy fasted for 385 days and he went from 400 to 180— cool! I was going to sleep but I had to email my list to hubby so since on I finally am replying and YES Sonny just recently the rancher who had that burn barrel she died in December and Monday night Bob died over here and the book store owner and our friend Kathleen died of cancer….ALL cancers…and many NEVER had anything wrong with them before YHF…the numbers keep growing and the towns keep getting smaller. It is messed up. Sonny, I have had a research team assigned awhile back on this and they did state you were on to something when your neighbor in Yarnell died. There should be a true investigation. I sure miss going to all your old mines and it is by far the most unique situation and you cannot make this shit up…who goes west of the Grand Canyon with an old miner and journey off from the cookie cutter world…remember the opal mine…you sure know your stuff…no doubt…I never met a person who tells you drop your back pack and gear and just go out with yourself and “live”…and you took Earth and grass and what else? and you made us dishes and utensils out of earth clay than you taught me where water is and you taught so many ways to properly make a campfire with nothing…you taught me I can do it with a smile and sleep under the moonlit stars with all those different wildlife…I remember those little men with guns and you said take a photo and I ran across those pics and the Vernon one too…I liked the part where you stated YOU ARE FORTUNATE TO KNOW ME…I had to hidden chuckle on that…there is not 1 person on this site I can see doing that or 6 years like you showed me…In your honor in recent times to warm my body on a cold night I did have a pretty decent glass of Tullamore Dew on my fast to keep me warm…and to settle my tummy…I am still part Eskimo but not chopping wood lately or taking freezing showers where that plane took that photo and put it up in the local hardware store DO IT BEST in Dolan Springs of me taking a shower (the skies have eyes)…if anything I really want to let you know how your brother is so remind me to do that…I am like one of the guys when you think about it…I am the longest lasting female on IM 😉 probably because the others came to their senses…where are you Diane? Maybe Sonny is right…maybe our side smack got her to wash her hands of IM…or maybe she is just enjoying life like Bob Powers and Norb (you still coming out Norb?) and Otis with periodic stop bys…we know Rocksteady’s hidden joy is coming to America on this site…poor Woodsman was neglected in the post…out of sight out of mind…maybe he is on to other Folklore, Legends, and Traditions of the Valley…Sorry Sonny we gave RTS a hard time and you felt that talk should be private…maybe it should of been but someone from the bleachers wanted to hypnotize the site with Anastasia…it’s all good. Due to data I know I am not on the same wave length as RTS and Gary and Sonny about the 2 leaders and just so you know that area is shifting to a commercial foia…and I hope to bring light there. It is almost like the old Appalachian superstitions that locals and readers “just believe” to believe yet facts are still pushing forward…I have to say you do have a point of the many deaths…yet my main focus is the 19 and all fallen…so I keep at it for them…have a good night…I keep saying I am going to sleep but someone emailed you were here so came to say hello…and welcome back to IM or is this a Norb kind of visit?

  14. Joy A Collura says

    I know there has been alot fluff on here lately but this serious—-

    Are any of you on IM up for making a IM Firefighter Calendar with us in it?

    I will wear suspenders and boots — I am not sure about the Helmet
    might mess up my hair…

    We need pole shots— and we need pulaski shots— we need to do structural and wild land…cross over…speaking of cross over— maybe some other genders in the calendar… anyone game?

    Than the proceeds can go to John Dougherty to OPEN a new chapter on here

    Please John 🙂

    • Gary Olson says

      I will think about doing a photo shoot while doing a pole…dance. I’m pretty sure that would be a big seller.

          • Gary Olson says

            I am going to have to go with RTS on this one. I found the fire used by the french pole dancer to distracting and got in the way of my admiring her technique.

            So…I think Anastasia Sokolova nailed it. What is up with the name Anastasia anyway? It seems like all of the women I am communicating with from that part of the world are named Anastasia? And they all say they will love me long time if I help them get their Resident Alien card, but I don’t know?

            • Gary Olson says

              Oh…and one more thing. This thread takes forever to load on my old computer too. Maybe that Canadian mining conglomerate finally assassinated JD. I sure hope not because I need him to maintain this blog.

              • Joy Collura says

                Of course our very own safety matter RTS picks the video with the one where the fire ring versus carrying fire…you are right RTS…safety matters so rule out the act carrying fire. Good choice RTS.

                So RTS wants to do the pole dance too…is that right?

                John, as my house fills up with yummy aromas and I am on my fast….that was easier than I thought…drank kale juice with ginger and as I was cooking I put silver spoon in mouth that cuts off my sense of salivating aromas smells…

                The only thing sticking around here besides my boredom behaviors is I am still not yet in new chapter…

                I will arrange for that shot in photo shoot so which one of you is getting that scene again with the pole dancing?

                Seems RTS being tall it would be a challenge so give it to Bob Powers because never seen Polar Bears on poles except the South Pole

    • Gary Olson says

      Routine Housekeeping

      I’m not trying to tell the whole Scott Fire experience, which was by far the worst experience I ever had by far on a fire, here on this thread, but I forgot a minor but important point I want to make.

      The Santa Fe National Forest Dispatcher, who I eventually replaced was named Cyndie Hogg. She could drink and party like a hotshot and frequently hung out with us. Anyway…she was married to Jeff Hogg, who RTS mentioned the other day. Give me a fuckin’ minute…I’m trying to get to the point of the story.

      Anyway, Jeff was a Forester on the Santa Fe but he transferred to the Carson and so that is why Cyndie left. But before she did, she had been working in expanded dispatch down on the Coronado and for whatever reason, she was on the specially chartered jet that the Santa Fe Hotshots were being sent home on.

      Of course throughout my encounter with the fire boss, line boss and division boss, I didn’t blink. This was because had I backed down in front of my crew, they never would have respected me again, but…I didn’t feel nearly as confident as my face and words in front of the crew indicated.

      So anyway, half way through the flight home, Cyndie came up front where I was sitting because the crew boss always gets on everything last as he counts his crew, but the first seat is always reserved the crew boss.

      So Cyndie walks up to where I was sitting, stood in front of me and said, Ray Page (Forest FMO on the Santa Fe and the man I went to see when we landed) and Dickhead (since I can’t remember his name) are old friends.

      Well…of course this made me feel much worse, but everyone really liked and respected Cyndie including me, so I know she was trying to be helpful.

      I managed to respond to her without missing a beat, “So what…all these guys (meaning the Fire Gods) are old friends.” Because it was one big good ole boys club.

      Ray and Dickhead may have been old friends…but Ray never blinked when it came to supporting me and the Santa Fe Hotshots. And I have always been greatful for that.

      • Gary Olson says

        Oh…and one more thing. The last time I saw Cyndie, I was a Special Agent attending a training session because FLETC West which was at the CIA Air Base at Marino, Pinal Air Park, Arizona.

        Anyway…Cyndie was there working for the National Advanced Resource Technology Center, so maybe that when Jeff ended up down there. Marana was also a huge fire cache and an air tanker base.

        It used to be interesting at breakfast trying to identify the wide variety of air crew uniforms and nationalities in the dining hall. It was like a meeting of the UN in flight suits and spooks.

      • Gary Olson says

        Routine housekeeping,

        Joy asked me down below who the guy in my video is with the hurt and heavily bandage foot. That is the sixth Happy Jack Hotshot who joined us in Santa Fe beginning in our second year.

        I don’t remember how he hurt his foot. His name is Dale Stephenson. He left us and served for two years with the Peace Corps in Mali, which I think is a sub Saharan former French Colony.

        He went on to get his PhD in science and worked for several years at the Los Alamos National Labratory and then went on to work for a large research university the last time I heard from him.

        The guy laughing at him is Craig Sawtelle, who was also a Happy Jack Hotshot who went with me to start the Santa Fe Hotshots., Craig was by far one of the best hotshot sawyers and fallers I ever saw work.

        I think the more interesting story is the guy with the heavily bandaged up face. We were working on the night shift, maybe on on a fire on the Modoc? So anyway…we were mopping up and he was working on a steep slide slope bucking up a large downed and burning tree.

        His name was Bill Panke, and his foot slipped and his head and shoulders picked forward as his saw bar came up screaming at full throttle. Within a split secon, the bar was hitting his round brim metal Bullard and it skipped all around his hard hat beginning in the front and making a notch in his hard hat every inch or so. It was pitch black in the middle of the night when the medics called for me to come over to where they were working on him.

        I have never seen that much blood before on a hotshot because every time the bar touched his hard hat brim, it cut his face, and then skipped around cutting several notches in his face and of course, we all know how much facial wounds bleed. But he was okay and the medics were able to get him medevacced that night down off the fire line to a hospital.. after that night he had a new nickname…Scarface.

        I think he came pretty close to amputating his one pwn head. And I would have had to fill out a lot of paperwork, so I was glad he was okay and I only had ti fill out some paperwork.

        • Gary Olson says

          Routine housekeeping

          Captain Jesse Steed did not lead his crew down that chimney to the deaths because he was a Marine. Captain Jesse Steed led his crew down that chimney because he was a family man, who had two young children at home and a wife who did not work outside of the home who depended on both his paycheck and benefits such as health insurance for their survival.

          Captain Jesse Steeds experience as both a Marine who served in a combat zone and a Wildland Firefighter, with an emphasis on Hotshot work had made him qualified for a position in the fast food industry where he would have to ask, “Do you want fries with that” if he lost his great firefighting career.

          Captain Steed also had two petty, vindictive and unreasonable supervisors by the names of Willis and Marsh who had destroyed Captain Steeds predessor’s career and life for petty and vindictive resons which weren’t even violations of policy, he violated the unofficial version of how Marsh and Willis viewed themselves on their sanctimonious high horses and unprofessional domination over a petty kingdom of their own creation.

          • Robert the Second says

            Gary,

            I agree with you in part here.

            I think Steed’s Marine Corps experience and training to “follow orders” did influence his decision to lead the GMHS from safety to their deaths.

            Credible and significant research on this “deference to authority” has also been found to be responsible for many aircraft mishaps, fatal and other wise.

            I agree with your point on vindictive leadership

            • Gary Olson says

              Technically, that was me disagreeing with what you said downstream blaming what Steed did on his Marine Corp background just as you aleays do and then I object…but why quibble?

              What is far more important is the fact that you agree with me about the petty and vindictive leadership, especially since my conclusion were reached solely based on the information presented here, whereas yours is from real world exposure…I think?

              • Robert the Second says

                Gary,

                Yes, I blame what Steed did on his Marine Corp background just as I always will. Go ahead and object, it’s not quibbling, it’s much more serious than that.

                https://www.military.com/daily-news/2013/07/24/marine-veterans-among-19-firefighters-killed.html

                The Ultimate Sacrifice

                “On June 30, Travis [Turbyfill] and fellow Marine Jesse led the Granite Mountain crew into the toughest fight they had ever faced with no second-guesses. They had a mission to accomplish — protect the community of Yarnell — AND JUST LIKE THEIR TIME IN THE MARINE CORPS, THEY WERE WILLING TO LAY DOWN THEIR LIVES TO ACHIEVE THAT GOAL. and just like their time in the Corps, they were willing to lay down their lives to achieve that goal.” (EMPHASIS ADDED)

                Unfortunately, they failed to mention GMHS rookie Billy Warneke, also a Marine veteran.

                And there is also the video interview with PFD Wildland Chieff Willis.

                “… Every [GMHS] knew that they were gonna protect … Yarnell. And if they laid down their life, it’s JUST LIKE IN THE MARINES, THEY KNEW WHAT THEY HAD TO DO AND THERE COULDN’T BE ANY MORE HONORABLE WAY TO DIE THAN THE WAY THEY DIED.” (EMPHASIS ADDED) PFD Wildland Division BC

                http://www.military.com/video/specialties-and-personnel/veterans/marine-vet-killed-fighting-wildfire/2581462564001/

                  • Gary Olson says

                    RTS,

                    I remember all of that and more. The personality of the Coconino Hotshot program during the Bill Buck years was dominated by the power, presence, charisma and presence of one Marine…Bill Buck that made us into a quasi Marine force.

                    I used to say the US Forest Service FIRE program was more military than the military, which I think was true because at the time the military was at its lowest point in decades in terms of reputation etc., because we were at the very end of our war of choice in Vietnam.

                    Which reminds me of something that I learned recently ( from the Pentagon Papers) that STUNNED me. We paid for the Frech war in Indochina that caused them to try and hold on to a colony they otherwise would have let go of. And that resulted in the deaths of more than 90,000 French soldiers, followed up by the deaths of more than 58,000 American soldiers and I do t know how many allied troops. Oh…and more than 2 million Vietnamese. What were we thinking?

                    So yes, I get it…I really do. Jesse Steed was multi dimensional person as we all are and there isn’t a single reason why he led his crew down that chimney, but I’m afraid this is just one more area we are going to have to agree to disagree on.

                    Having been there and done that…I believe to my core that Steed did what he did because there were two little beings waiting for him at home who meant more to him than he would ever have believed possible prior to their arrival in his life. Steed led his crew to their deaths primarily because he was a daddy…not a Marine.

                    • Gary Olson says

                      Oh…and one more thing. I don’t want to see Cory Iverson’s training records anymore. I have the answer I would have been looking for. he was a former Hotshot.

                      Cory wasn’t killed by poor or incomplete training, he was killed by Hotshot hubris.

                    • Gary Olson says

                      I know all to well how infectious, dehabilitating, and deadly Hotshot Hubris can be,

                      The disease of Hotshot Hubris is more commonly known by colloquial vernacular such as a “can do spirit” or a “hung ho attitude”, but I know it by its technical and more designation.that is more specific..

                      Almost all WF suffer from a can do spirit and a gung ho attitude, but it takes a current or former Hotshot to take it to the next level that is the “19th Situation That Shouts Watch Out” C. G. Olson, 2018.

                    • Gary Olson says

                      Hotshot Hubris is dehahilitating in the sense it dulls specific brain stimulus that I think is related to the activation of the hypothalamus.

                      And yes, I am a former ground pounder and grunt but I can two finger type queries into internet search engines. So…

                    • Robert the Second says

                      Gary,

                      Does this statement you made: “Having been there and done that,” mean that you led your Crews down chimneys?

                      “Steed led his crew to their deaths primarily because he was a daddy…not a Marine.”

                      Really? That’s what is called a Non Sequitor because it does not follow.

                      If he was a “daddy” as you say, which he was, then he would have and should have known that what he was going to do was going to get him and his men killed.

                    • Gary Olson says

                      RTS,

                      No…my having been “there and done that” was in reference to my having many things throughout my working career, almost all of which happened while I was with the BLM, that I did because I had to do in order to keep my job and not because they were the right thing to do.

                      You have never mentioned children that I recall, so I have no idea of whether or not you have any or not? But…I think that people who do have children, or even dependents who are truly dependent on them for their survival, often do things they would not do otherwise.

                      In other words, I think for single people who do not have children or other dependents, the threshold for the ole, “take this job and shove it” is much, much, much…much lower. I know it would be for me.

                      I think I have been an outstanding example of that ever since I turned renegade and left the rez on the run. I just go around looking for people to tell, “Fuck Off!”

                      I don’t have any dependents. My children are all way grown. I still help them of course, because I am me and being an ATM is a hard habit to break. But I do it because I want to, not because I have to.

                      Steed had to go down that chimney because he was a daddy and two little beings were waiting for him at home for their survival. Historically….men who DO NOT meet that standard, usually find themselves alone and their kids calling another man “daddy.”

                      And to make matters worse for Steed, and if I understand the situation correctly, his wife did not have a readily marketable skills, maybe especially in the small inbred town of Prescott.

                      (Editorial) FYI….for all of the Trumpers out there who want to live in their same little town they were born in and where their comfort level is, work at the same factory where their fathers and their grandfathers worked and don’t like to go to school. I understand completely and I can relate.

                      I have ADHD, I hated school, much less four years of college. I was vary happy and very, very, very comfortable living in Prescott. But I had to leave for a future. I was very happy and very, very, very comfortable living in Flagstaff and working out at Happy Jack. But….I went to New Mexico, which was like moving to another planet.

                      After Santa Fe became home, I went to Phoenix for the job….I repeat, I WENT TO PHOENIX. When I left Phoenix I went to Albuquerque, which really sucks, and then I followed the job to Farmington, NM, which I don’t even like to think about because I have PTSD from there.

                      And then I was asked to return to Phoenix to take a promotion….I went even though I had a really long commute to ground zero in Phoenix again, and you know….it’s like living in Mordor without the Big Eye of Sauron, the Abhorred, Gorthaur the Cruel, Thû the Necromancer, Lord of Wolves, greatest of the servants of Morgoth, dwelling in the Elvish watchtower on Tol Sirion; later name Sauron, in addition to Mt. Doom.

                      But even without those things there, it is still like living in Mordor but I moved there TWICE for the job for 8 years….so don’t cry to me. Get off your asses, get an education and move to where the jobs are. Tell grand pappy, grandma, mom, dad, your siblings, aunts uncles and nieces nephews, and first, second, third, fourth and fifth cousins goodby and you will write when you find work. I am ONE generation out of the mountains myself…the White Mountains around Alpine, Arizona. That is where my ancestral homeland and family are. Thank God I don’t live there.

                      And now I am a tumbleweed and will ever know the joy of being a potted plant.

                      And just for the record, I think Steed led his men down that chimney more because he was a hotshot than because he was a Marine.

                      But…like I already said, Captain Steed was a multi faceted and multi dimensional person just like all of us are, well…except for you maybe? Steed led his men down that chimney for lots of reasons.

                      And clearly Steed knew what he was going to do was an unacceptable risk and COULD get them killed, but I don’t think he KNEW it was going to get them killed.

                      Captain Steed thought they could make it. And his crew believed in him.

                    • Gary Olson says

                      My record was 6 weeks at the Pinal Air Park 5 miles or so north of Marana in one year. And I always spent between 1 and six weeks there.

                      And many of you have spent a great deal of time at “Marana” yourself, (which is actually the Pinal Air Park) for advanced training and even ONE night there really sucks.

                      And I spent a total of about 12 months at FLETC counting police, investigator and advanced training. And I really hated going to FLETC.

                      Advanced training to keep up with the changes in the world is the price of living in this century.

                    • Gary Olson says

                      Whoops, that was over the top hyperbole, and I never do that so…

                      Moving to Northern New Mexico wasn’t like moving to another planet, but it was like moving to another country. A country I grew to love…or at least like more than Prescott.

                    • Robert the Second says

                      Gary,

                      “And just for the record, I think Steed led his men down that chimney more because he was a hotshot than because he was a Marine.”

                      I agree in part to this with my angle on it.

                      I think Steed led his men down that chimney because he was a Marine first and THEN a hotshot which he equated to being back in the Marine Corps.

                      And I totally agree with this post with the caveat that the GMHS under his leadership had done nearly the same thing THREE TIMES on the Holloway Fire (2012) in Nevada, that they referred to
                      as the Nevada Fire. .

                      Twice when they posted no lookout(s) and the fire basically snuck up on them and had to fire out around themselves and their Buggies.

                      And once on the Holloway Fire when they had to have a contract Engine Crew save their Buggies because they parked them in the unburned and left nobody behind.

                      VIMEO video – “… we saved the Granite Mt. Hotshot buggies from burning up!”
                      Colby Drake – the video was later removed from VIMEO site. and you cannot find this anywhere else.

                      Go to (2:40-3:25) and then freeze-frame through and you will notice a GMHS with a black hardhat running down the handline in the upper left frame.

                      Best visible when the nozzleman’s hardhat aligns with the handline in the upper left of the screen.

                      http://vimeo.com/48411010

                      “And clearly Steed knew what he was going to do was an unacceptable risk and COULD get them killed, but I don’t think he KNEW it was going to get them killed.”

                      “Captain Steed thought they could make it. And his crew believed in him.”

                      LOTS of Human Factors and psychology to support why this occurred, including Groupthink, Abilene Paradox, Plan Continuation, The Filter Effect, False Consensus, Pluralistic Ignorance, Normalization of Deviance, Lack of Assertiveness, Deference to Authority, Mitigating or Hinting Speech, Suspension of Belief, Habituated Action Theory , Habituated Action Theory, Social Action Theory, the Exclusive Alternatives Trap, Latent Errors, the Halo Effect, Illusion of Control, Availability Cascade, Collective Ignorance, and a whole bunch more ….

                      Just GTS these phrases and research yourself

                      Staw and Ross (1989) Understanding behavior in escalation situations. Science, 246

                      Human Error and Marine Safety. Dr. Anita M. Rothblum
                      U.S. Coast Guard Research & Development Center

                      http://bowles-langley.com/wp-content/files_mf/humanerrorandmarinesafety26.pdf

                    • Gary Olson says

                      I remember the photo of the GMIHC crewman running down the hill because their buggies were going to get burned up.

                      We aren’t every far apart in what we think. This discussion is now down to some really fine points. I don’t think we are in disagreement on any of the major factors in this catastrophic disaster.

                      What really pisses me off…is when people try to NORMALIZE this disaster by comparing it to other disasters.

                      You can’t compare what happened on the Yarnell Hill Fire with any other fire in US history, even other hotshot disaster fires because of the reasons I keep stating.

                      South Canyon doesn’t really count as a hotshot disaster fire, it was a WF disaster fire and due to the IC having his head down working rather than managing a complex fire. And that wasn’t even his (Mackey) fault in my opinion. That should fall directly on the idiot BLM policy that states the first smokejumper out of the door is the Jumper-In-Charge (JIC).

                      But back on point. I think we have to compare Yarnell Hill to Battlement Creek and the Loop Fires. To say that a hotshot crew from 1976 and 1966 had any real resemblance to a modern day hotshot crew is a real stretch.

                      We were a bunch of cowboys who rode hard for the brand and shot from the hip, but a professional crew…we were not. The professionalization and the advanced understanding of fire behavior, should have made such an incident impossible to happen.

                    • Robert the Second says

                      Gary,

                      There is NO photo of the GMIHC crewman running down the hill because their buggies were going to get burned up.

                      It is only reflected in the VIMEO video clip.

                    • Gary Olson says

                      My apologies, I meant to write “vidoe” when I wrote “photo”.

                      I do have a brain tumor you know, so how about cutting me a little slack? Most other people do since I have gotten so old, everyone just more or less ignores me while I walk around talking to myself and cussing out the world.

                      Well…sometimes they do call the police, but I just badge them and so they drive me home.

                    • Robert the Second says

                      Gary,

                      Yes, we were a bunch of cowboys and many of us shot from the hip, … a professional crew, we were not.”

                      Hopefully, you are speaking about YOUR Crew(s) here.

                      “The professionalization and the advanced understanding of fire behavior, should have made such an incident impossible to happen.”

                      There is no way to totally prevent these wildland fire disasters and so, all we can do is lessen them.

                      And one more thing, I have been cutting you slack every day since the 1980 Murdock Basin Fire, so get over it. And if you’re getting old, that’s good because that means you’re still alive and better than the alternative.

    • Joy Collura says

      So many were so ficuated to Anastasia you were blinded by the truth.Polar bears live in the Arctic, near the North Pole. Penguins live on Antarctica and the neighbouring continents, near the South Pole.

      So
      I
      Say
      This
      Because
      Some
      Say
      I
      Talk
      In
      Circles
      yet
      I
      Have
      Over
      Time
      gave
      Enough
      Solid
      Clues
      What’s
      Happening
      and
      What’s
      Coming…and
      there
      Was
      a
      point
      in
      the
      message
      and
      some
      day
      looking
      back
      all these
      areas
      that
      probably
      has
      not
      only
      offended
      some
      Wives
      amd
      others.
      It
      will
      make
      sense.

    • Robert the Second says

      The case is in AZ Federal District Court awaiting the Judge to rule on the Federal Government’s Motion for Summary judgement.

      • Gary Olson says

        Oh…and one more thing RTS. You know I am essentially writing chapter drafts here on this thread and then I flesh them out in my book draft. The whole Scott Fire story will be much better if I can name that Scott Fire Boss.

        I am sure you must know him and I’m sure you think he is a Dickhead, everybody thought this guy was a Dickhead except for his mother…and I’m pretty sure she would have had some serious doubts about him.

        So…he was the Forest FMO on the Coronado in 1983. He was young, very aggressive and considered a Blue Flame up and coming guy. I know he was at least a Type II (or Class II) Fire Boss and then Incident Commander and he must have been in some overhead job like Ops on one of the Type I Fire Teams.

        In fact, he probably ended up as a Type I IC and he was a big enough Dickhead he probably ended up as a Director Of Aviation & Fire Management in one of the regions. And then maybe even the WO unless somebody killed his sorry ass on his way to the top. What is his name…please? And even if you don’t know him, you know who does. 🙂

        • Robert the Second says

          Gary,

          Anything for you My Friend when it comes to exposing those types.

          I will do my best. I did a brief search the other day after you posted this and didn’t come up with anything that caught my eye.

          The Coronado NF, back in the day, was where the SW Region USFS always sent their ‘disciplinary promotion’ candidates to, when they f**ked up on another Forest in the Region.

            • Gary Olson says

              Wow…anything?

              I certainly do appreciate your help. Are you saying you think it could possibly one of the three listed above? If, so, Steve Gallegos doesn’t sound right, and I used to know Jeff Hogg, so…

              For some reason, I thought it would be pretty easy because this guy really had the rep as a fast rising Blue Flame Type? Maybe he flamed out?

              Maybe f*uckin’ with me did him in? LOL

              I mean, being Forest FMO and at least a Type II IC should have made him well known?

              • Gary Olson says

                Although now that I think about it, that was 25 years ago. Time really flies by when you’re having fun…and even when you’re not.

  15. Bob Powers says

    Gary You are right. WOW

    I have always said even in my training of new FF.

    Rule 10 should have been rule 1.

    Fight fire aggressively but provide for SAFETY FIRST.

    In 1972 I was on a Fire censing group for R5 That group was called SAFETY FIRSI.

    FIRE IMPROVEMENT REGIONAL SAFETY TEAM.

    All the rest of the Commandments and watch outs fall under NUMBER TEN it really says it all.
    The rest are all cause and effect suppression decisions.

    Make all decisions based on SAFETY.

    • Gary Olson says

      Gee, Bob…I guess this will be a perfect place for me to stop blogging about the safety rules if you and I are finally in agreement on them, unless you are messin’ with me?

      • Joy Collura says

        Will the REAL Bob Powers please stand up…

        Man
        I am shocked
        😲

        Bob?

        Gary maybe he is trying to make you feel better after last night’s comments

        Maybe he saw your sadness and empathizes

        Wow…I do not know what to say…this beats Mika in the morning huh Gary

        • Bob Powers says

          I doubt if you can find it but I had a long discussion with Elizabeth way back I think on here maybe on my E-Mail as well.

          I have said over and over That Safety First has always been my number one Commandment/Order.

          Fight Fire Aggressively but provide for safety first.
          Check LCES, Weather,,whats your fire doing current and expected, act decisively, Maintain Control give clear instructions insure they are understood. All 10 in a nut shell. Always check the 18 and provide for safety first.,

    • Woodsman says

      Mr. Bob,

      Hope you are well this year. Your comment is interesting as when I started in this business 19 years ago, Fight Fire Aggressively while providing for Safety First WAS FIRST! Then ‘those who cannot help changing, adding to, and switching around stuff’, waved their magic wand and deemed it last. They just can’t help themselves. Must be grant money involved or something? Can’t wait for my DeathBag 3.0….gonna be awesome. Not!

        • Gary Olson says

          It was always 10 with me too? But yes, it was really Number 1, Vietnam vets used to say…Numba 1 if something was really good and Numba 10 if it sucked, and Numba 10,000 if things were really bad. Ahhhh….memories.

          I am still going to publish my photos from the Ship Island Creek Fire and the Crossman Peak Fire. I know all WF like to look at them, they may not have been on those particular fires, but they were on fires that looked just like them….it’s hard to remember which was which sometimes.

            • Gary Olson says

              Yes…that is a really good example. Famous last words, “Sorry I got you into this mess,”

              At least they had a decent size deployment site, you know…compared to an area the size of a three car garage with at least horizontal 60 foot flame lengths and 2000 or more degree temperatures with.

              “How Big Is Big Enough” and “Size Does Matter.”

              • Gary Olson says

                i have made up some WF bumper stickers for fun, I think I will add those.

                “How Big Is Big Enough” and “Size Does Matter.”

                I will post a photo of my current bumper sticker when I post some more photos.

                • Woodsman says

                  Gary,

                  Your slogan for bumper stickers is not a good idea. It’s a great idea! Using humor to draw attention to a topic that has not received the proper study is genius!!! But don’t stop there, the concept of how big is big enough for safety zones is vitally important for keeping wf alive & nobody seems to know the answer.. So you need to make hats, t-shirts, beer holders, key chains, cell phone cases…you know, the works. Develop a marketing strategy like yeti & you’ll have enough $$ in 2 years to build all the rock-crawling buggies you could never break.

                  • Gary Olson says

                    Nahhhhh, wildland firefighters need to learn that from a formal, standardized, professional and approved lesson plan taught to everyone by qualified instructors using modern techniques and updated training materials.

                    Now that…is a good idea.

                    And gee, it looked bigger from the video…but that’s what she said.

                    • Woodsman says

                      But they don’t absorb knowledge (learn) that way anymore, Gary. Today you have 3.7 sec, on average, to gain someones attention and keep it or there on to the next tweet and/or hash tag. This is our new self-absorbed populace reality. Hey look, something shiny! Distractions, diversions…

                    • Gary Olson says

                      Well THE Woodsman…you did get me motivated so I made up some mock up bumper stickers regarding THE theme I would very much like to see turned into a lesson plan by the NWFCG.

                      I will donate my concept etc, to the NWCG for the cause if they will get off their dead asses and do the right thing for wildland firefighters and train everyone on the concept of “How Big Is Big Enough.”

                      So…here are my new uploads.

                      1. A photo of my van with the only WF bumper sticker I have brought to production. I carry a folder of them in my van and give them out to wildland firefighters who approach me at gas stations, stores or restaurants…wherever while I am on road trips.

                      If the NWCG never get off their dead asses and run with my idea, I will make up a bunch of “Size Does Matter’ bumper stickers if I ever get off my dead ass. And if I ever get my bumper sticker business going,I will give out a free “How Big Is Big Enough” bumper sticker with every order.

                      2.A neat photo of my best friend, In Memorium, Rest In Peace Best Jeeping Buddy.

                      3. How Big is Big Enough – Size Does Matter mock ups.

                      4. Miscellaneous mock ups.

                      http://ourfiregods.com/reserved1.html

                    • Gary Olson says

                      Oh…and one more thing. I have tried to think up some specific bumper stickers for other WF with limited results so far.

                      “Wildland Firefighters Do It With Long Hoses”

                      for engine crews.

                      “Smokejumpers Do It In Sticks” Nahhhh.

                      maybe

                      “Smokejumpers Do It On Speed Racks” Nahhhh.

                      maybe

                      “Smokejumpers Do It Both Ways” Nahhhhh

                      maybe

                      “Helislacks Do It At The Motel”

                      maybe

                      “Helislacks Do It In The Pool” Nahhhhh.

                      maybe

                      Helislacks Do It With Autorotate” Nahhhhh.

                      I have obviously got some more work to do in this area.

                    • Joy A Collura says

                      Gary

                      bumper sticker idea

                      too funny on helislack ones…
                      sounds like miners…

                      How about

                      “Smokejumpers Get The Job Done”

                      “I put out”
                      and have a pic of plane/slurrydrop or fire extinguisher in background

                      or

                      “only we can start fires”
                      wildland firefighters with flares
                      (instead of prevent fires)

                      “slacker”
                      boss turned away from ff

                      let me rest for a minute bro-
                      its late night and this is a hard one…

                      You sure have great ideas…
                      not me.

                      “50 Shades of Grey”
                      plumes in background

                      or

                      “Insane in the Membrane”

                      or

                      “Fueled by Fire”

                      or

                      “In case of emergency, pull hose”

                      or

                      for your sports people or for the recent New Years Eve ball drop mentions:

                      “I’m a FF because football baseball and basketball only require one ball”

                      or

                      “I’m Innocent”

                      or

                      lastly…

                      “A controlled burn is like a controlled fart…it can turn to crap in a matter of seconds”

                      Can I hear a A M E N brother…

                      🙂

                      good night

                    • Gary Olson says

                      How about,

                      “Five seconds is a long count for Smokejumpers”

                      “Smokejumpers Do It On Facebook”

                  • Joy A Collura says

                    Woodsman and Gary-

                    shouldn’t we add a bumper sticker that says

                    Mushroom atomic Explosion image as the background and right across the Mushroom image—>
                    your state’s advice 21 on minutes and thereafter?

                    • Joy A Collura says

                      you cannot follow?

                      first off I am female
                      second off you are a Leo

                      Lead the way Gary…

                      Another late night here—in cold Congress…Today is forecast to be MUCH COOLER than yesterday. not really…56 now…

                  • Gary Olson says

                    You actually have a couple of good ideas there. Please keep em coming.

                    And that goes for everyone else, how about if we have a “help Gary come up with WF slogans for bumper stickers contest. And if you don’t want to post here, please send them to my email.

                    [email protected]

                    And FYI, this isn’t a shadow email, this is the email address I use for everything. I wanted anybody who wants to flame me for my attitude and the things I have written to be able to do so.

                    I don’t have much to hide from anyone now that I have been off the rez for so many years now and I don’t plan on ever going back except on my shield.

                    Which is just another statement loaded with fake hubris and is from what the Spartan women used to tell their men, “Come back with your shield…or on it!”

                    I really don’t have much hubris anymore…RTS really can have my balls since I don’t use them anymore. 🙂

              • Woodsman says

                If you look carefully at the flyover near the end of the video you will see the actual size of the “deployment zone” is really damn close to the size of a 3-car garage….0.41 acre my ass! Look at the co-dominant or dominant (full-size) pine in the middle of it. Definitely not the place to be. I’m just relieved that the effective use of shelters was not tarnished… would have been a shame. Don’t you know they save lives?!!? Hey, it’s a dangerous job & there’s nothing we can do about it. I’d also like to give a double thumbs up for the great job the HEQB trainer performed for their trainee on that fire, but I’m not that cold-hearted…. The hell I ain’t, WTF!!!! Look after your people, dumbass!

                I’ve said it before, a DIVS is a huge responsibility. Kudos for the clear thinking. Umm, maybe get the fuck away from your truck with all the inflammable shit in it? Great googly fucking moogly.

                That feels better. Proud to say 11 more years & I’m out! (1 less than last year)

                • Gary Olson says

                  That was such a good diatribe, I feel better just reading it.

                  I would tell you the time will drag by, but once it’s over…you will wonder how it ended so fast. So…I can give you one piece of advice that isn’t hollow.

                  Start getting your training plan angled towards logistics, supply, and even safety if you are still going to be in good enough shape to hump the line. I would say
                  comunications, but that job is too boring.

                  That whole AD gig is just about the greatest retirement gig I can think of, because in spite of what you think now…you will miss it once it is gone…but that what she said, LOL.

                  I have thought several times about hiring myself and van out to deliver lunches and equipment from fire caches, but then I usually just take a nap until the thought goes away.

                • Woodsman says

                  I’m working on being more positive because some people think it’s better or some shit. Sounds weak but what the f.

                  OK, I should have said:

                  1. If your trainee dies…at least you won’t have to go through the hassle of signing his task book.
                  2. If my work truck has a lot of miles on it & I’ve run the dog piss outta of it anyway…besides, it will start costing some real $ to keep going. Good thing I burnt the fuck out of it both inside & out parking it next to a running crownfire, not only providing a heatsheild for my shelter deployment, the taxpayers will save money on maintenance buying me a new rig. Time value of money, ya know.
                  3. At least this IMT is no longer in the dark about whether a county rescue unit will or will not respond to a call.for assistance based on the ability to answer the highly complicated question of whether they have an actual patient in need of medical assistance. If we don’t know, they won’t go.
                  4. At least we got great video, & it actually WAS NOT ‘accidentally’ lost.
                  5. The flames were beautiful.

                  • Woodsman says

                    No, I really fucking mean it. The video footage was great quality. I thought I was watching one of those fire science behavior research motherfucking made up in the great white northern Canada Alberta or some shit like that. It looked like someone video shopped a couple of tall sacks of dumbshit into one of those fire behavior videos as a joke…but it was real! Its like i was there. Cool!!!

                  • Gary Olson says

                    I agree,

                    “The flames are beautiful; but they kill or destroy everything they touch without anger or malice and without forgiveness or compassion.”

                    “Betrayed By Our Fire Gods”

                    • Gary Olson says

                      I do understand however, that none wildland firefighters may have a hard time understand where THE Woodsman and I are coming from, so here is an excerpt from my much anticipated and highly acclaimed book, “Betrayed By Our Fire Gods” where I try to explain the love hate relationship we have we FIRE!

                      “Betrayed By Our Fire Gods”
                      Chapter 1 – Wildland FIRE

                      Fire is beautiful. One of my favorite memories is sitting in front of the flagstone hearth at home watching the bright flickering flames from the fireplace, especially if the ground outside was covered with a thick blanket of white snow. I remember camping out often near clear mountain streams surrounded by some of the most beautiful forests in the world, drifting off to sleep as our campfires slowly died down to a glowing beds of red hot coals.
                      I can still hear the pop as embers shot out from the fire ring followed by a trail of sparks as the bright flames consumed the juniper logs. I can vividly recall the distinct aroma of burning Piñon wood and see the flaming hard oak that made the fire last longer against the crisp cold night air. Clear mountain streams, cold nights, blue mountains and towering forests of western Ponderosa pine trees are some of my fondest memories from growing up in northern Arizona.
                      After heating a large house for several years in a rural area outside of Santa Fe with nothing but firewood however, I am now content to occasionally sit and rock my granddaughter to sleep while being hypnotized by the bright flickering flames from a gas log fireplace.
                      I spent almost all of my free time scouting for wood, cutting wood, loading wood, hauling wood, splitting wood, stacking wood, carrying wood into the house, building the fires, stoking the fires, hauling out the ashes and then making sure the ashes did not set something on fire either at our house or at the county dump. Not to mention constantly worrying about the kids getting burned either by playing too close to the fireplace or by touching the cast iron wood stove, or by goofing around with the campfire while roasting marshmallows. The very first word my youngest daughter learned to speak was “hot,” and she damn well understood what it meant. I am now a big fan of central heating in my home and day trips into the back country in my Jeep rather than camping out for the night.
                      There is nothing however, beautiful about wildfire. The only adjectives that can be used to describe wildfires are synonymous with words like devastating or terrifying. Sometimes words like awesome can be used, but never beautiful. Wildfire is a deadly enemy that relentlessly kills and consumes all life in its path of total destruction.
                      Firefighters have a love/hate relationship with fire. Wildfire destroys everything it touches and must be extinguished down to the last hot spot before the hard and time consuming job of “mop up” is finished. On the other hand, fire is one of the most important and useful tools in a wildland firefighter’s arsenal. because we often fight wildfire…with fire. This is just one of the many paradoxes that exist in the world of wildland firefighting.
                      I specify wildland firefighters fight fire with fire, because it is unimaginable that any other kind of firefighters do. I know almost nothing about structural firemen except I hope they come quickly if my house catches on fire. In my time as a firefighter, there was no relationship between structural firefighters and wildland firefighters. And frankly, that is the way we thought it should be. Our world was centered and we knew who we were and what we did better than anyone else.
                      This has radically changed in the past three decades with structural firefighters receiving cross training and getting more and more involved in fighting wildfires, although to my knowledge a wildland firefighter would still be a fish out of water going into a burning building wearing a self-contained breathing apparatus (SCBA). There aren’t any SCBA’s or any of the other highly advanced and technical firefighting equipment and support systems structural firemen routinely rely on to do their jobs. The closest thing wildland firefighters have to SCBA’s are handkerchiefs worn bandit style.
                      The locations of wildfires are too remote, the distances too great, areas of operations are too large and shifts are too long, and the physical exertion required is too great to make wearing breathing apparatus feasible or make it possible for wildland firefighters to carrying very much equipment at all. Although I know from personal experience a simple respirator can be a real advantage since I carried and sometimes used. I bought for myself after a few years on the fire line and when I began to experience serious problems from smoke inhalation and permanent damage to my larynx and vocal cords. If, and that is a big if, you are more or less working in a stationary position or in a limited area while mopping up a fire. If there is much physical exertion involved such as hiking through the smoke, much less up a mountain, breathing with a respirator is like trying to breath into a paper bag and you would soon hyperventilate and pass out.

    • Gary Olson says

      Yep, I can testify to that, Wildland Firefighter Safety has always been Bob’s Number 1 priority…me? I am all over the map, so that’s why if I got Bob to agree with me I’m going to stop blogging on the rules now.

      Speaking of being a gossipy little scamp, check out what I got in an email today. which us men are, we just like to call it “bullshitten’” or “shootin the breeze” or a “tailgate sesssion” or something else instead of gossiping.

      It turns out that if Mrs, Lohman spends an inordinate amount of time around and communicating with wildland firefighters….some of them get the wrong idea. I never would have seen this coming!

      https://www.instagram.com/p/Bd6LSWDFUPh/

      And one more thing…my experience on the Scott Fire didn’t end when my story did the other day since we were after all, a national resource in the middle of fighting an out of state fire when things went side ways.

      There was a lengthy investigation by NIFC and Region by a team that interviewed everyone who worked with us on the fire or had information regarding the incidents that led up to the showdown and the showdown itself, that took several weeks to complete with a big report that was put out in the end. I never got a Day On The Beach and my crew was never taken out of rotation or disciplined in any way.

      Fuck that Fire Boss…I just wish I could remember that assholes name. He was Forest FMO on the Coronado National Forest in 1983 if anyone knows him, I would like to get his name for my memoirs.

      And guess what? I was exonerated and my crew was forgiven for pelting the Division Boss (I wrote Sector Boss the other day, but it was a division boss backed up by the line boss and fire boss) with spit cups, fruit, soda cans, and half eaten sandwiches.

      Note to overhead…don’t ever put a hotshot crew’s back up against the wall or you will probably find out why they are a hotshot crew…right Bob and RTS?

      I know that down deep…RTS still loves me, he just finds it hard sometimes to do so. 🙂

      He remembers how we picked up his slack on the Murdoch Basin Fire of 1979 in the Wasach Mountains when he and his crew were shirkers.

        • Gary Olson says

          Ya know…I guess the Colorado Fire Camp is one of The independent training outfits that are okay, but I’m old school who thinks Wildland Firefighting training should be done by agency employees who have been trained with updated training materials using standardized and approved training techniques.

          My model is the Federal Law Enforcement Ttaining Center and individual state peace officer academies like Arizona POST.

          https://post.az.gov/

          https://www.fletc.gov/

          I mean YOU PEOPLE don’t turn the training of your professional police officers to Tom, Dick, Harry. Eric Marsh and company that he started in his living room…do you? WTF…Over?

          Here’s a scary thought, the same core group who were responsible for the biggest single fuck up in wildland firefighting history, has trained thousands of wildland firefighters in their techniques at almost $1,000.00 each including my son. Am I the only one who sees a potential problem with this system?

          • Gary Olson says

            And of course my point is this…I still want to know who trained Cory Iverson and the four who were with him. What lesson plans did they use, were they qualified instructors, and did they use approved up to date lesson plans and techniques.

            But then again…I still have the very same questions for the Granite Mountain Hotshots. Please let me share something with YOU PEOPLE your training money bought you when you paid to have me trained, for years by the best.

            Every time something bad happens…the first questions that should be asked is…show me where all of their training materials are kept. I want to see everything and then interview those who had been through the same training and I want to talk to every instructor, coordinator, supervisor and manager who participated or approved their training.

            But first….give me their personnel files with their training plans…NOW! I will tell you what else I want when I am finished with all of that.

      • Woodsman says

        Yeah, as a line supervisor, if I’m in a conflict with a shot crew it’s not only time to pause & take another look at what’s going on, the problem more than likely is with me or other overhead…and I say this not as a ihc worshipping groupy but as someone with a tremendous amount of respect for them.

        Man, Gary, I would really, really love to read the report on the Scott fire. That’s one of my favorite Olde Gary stories!

        • Gary Olson says

          Well…the whole story will be in my memoirs, if I ever get them done. The trouble started when I was ordered to load my crew up in an open truck with all of our chain saws and tools to be transported from a Drop Point to the army base and I refused.

          So we hiked down the road towards town until they sent a bus, which really, really, really pissed them off, but you know as well as I do that is a big violation. Everything would have been fine…right up to the head on collision.

          And yes…you are correct thank you…bless you. That was the only time in 7 years as a crew boss anyone ever challenged me, so I was shocked when it happened. The discussions would always go like this,

          Me…”What do you want us to do?”

          Overhead…”You are the hotshot crew boss…what do you think you should do?”

          Me…”Well…I think we should do blah, blah, blah.”

          Overhead…”Sounds good to me…let me know if you need anything over the radio.”

          And then we usually never saw them again. That’s the way it’s done…right?

          • Gary Olson says

            And FYI…for others, the open truck wasn’t the problem, that was often done but usually there were military transport trucks that did have benches. The issue was riding with the tools and the crew in an open truck together…that was prohibited in all of the safety manuals.

            • Gary Olson says

              In fact…I think I was so surprised the first and only time someone challenged my authority when it came to the welfare of my hotshot crew…probably all I could say was…”Oh yeah…well FUCK YOU and the horse you rode in on. And one more thing…FUCK OFF ASSHOLES!

              Which of course wasn’t well received by that Blue Flame Fire Boss who was also the Forest FMO where the Scott Fire was burning. He thought he was in charge of my crew. He was in charge of me…but not my crew. That was my job.

              • Gary Olson says

                And this is really getting down in the weeds, but I find it interesting. Since I was the one who was cross ways with the division boss, line boss and fire boss, and not my crew, they could have hit the reset button after I was relieved of my command and told I was being sent home.

                In fact, that is what they tried to do when the fire boss and line boss sent the division boss onto the bus. But my confrontation had taken place in front of the crew, it was dark, but everything that was said…or yelled was certainly heard by the entire crew.

                So…theoretically, all they had to do was talk to my assistant to start over, but that is where things really went sideways for them. This was because the crew was really angry by that time, so my assistant never even stepped forward to talk to them and things went really bad really fast starting with the throwing of things at the division boss and cussing out the overhead. It was about to get worse because some guys stated moving forward to engage in a physical confrontation when all three overhead got the hell out of there…fast.

                Of course I could have stopped it with one word, but since I had been relieved of my command and I was still angry, I just stood there and watched it go down.

                So…that is a long story to tell you how proud I was of US Forest Service FIRE, which not only included our home forest, but BIFC and Region as well when the final decisions were made once the investigation was finished and the report was finalized.

                There really wasn’t any excuse for how my crew behaved, but under the circumstances…the USFS figured what my crew did…was exactly what a good hotshot crew should have done.

                But that was all done informally because the report only reported on my actions and everybody just forgot about and glossed over what the crew had done.. That is just one reason I loved USFS FIRE. It’s probably not that way anymore so…

                But maybe it still is…I hope?

        • Robert the Second says

          Woodsman,

          ” … if I’m in a conflict with a shot crew it’s not only time to pause & take another look at what’s going on, the problem more than likely is with me or other overhead…and I say this not as a ihc worshipping groupy but as someone with a tremendous amount of respect for them.”

          Yes, definitely take a tactical pause, however, you know what is the right and safe thing(s) to do, so it may n fact be their problem, and just looking to see what they can get away with.

          I know you know this one — NEVER allow yourself to be intimidated by a HS Superintendent. They do that as a matter of testing Overhead to see how far they can go.

          Respectfully and professionally stand up to them if they are playing that game. Because most of them think like OPS Chiefs, they already have a plan(s) in mind. Otherwise, put the onus on them to scout things out and come up with a good plan(s) with options.

          And you know this one as well. Not all HS Crews and Supts. are created equal, i.e. GMHS and the deadly YH Fire debacle.

          • Woodsman says

            RTS,
            Good advice. Thanks! That statement I made didn’t come across exactly how I wanted and I definitely hear what you’re saying & agree. Sometimes I put myself in a dream world where everything is as it should be knowing full well it’s not. Thanks for the reality check.

            • Robert the Second says

              Woodsman,

              You need to be the atypical Overhead, because they are going to expect you to be just another “qualified,,” yet inexperienced DIVS, who doesn’t really know his ass from a hole in the ground. So, of course, you want to and must prove them wrong.

              As you well know, you must maintain a consistent command presence knowing when to correct them and call BS on indiscretions or slacking as soon as possible, preferably through their chain of command. Learn to perfect the ability to chew someone out and then, if appropriate, kind of smile to let them know you know their indiscretion was unacceptable and you likely have done that yourself a time or two.

              For the most part, with hopefully few GMHS-type exceptions, they know and perform their jobs really well, so take full advantage of that and allow them to be part of the solution(s), with alternative options for the expected fire behavior plan(s)..

              A HS Crew’s overhead are usually rife with fully qualified and experienced operational and even some aviation Overhead, e.g. TFLD, STL, FIRB, FELB, HEQM, Helislack quals, and even DIVS. If they are willing to oblige, use their Overhead and DELEGATE with authority AND responsibility, especially during firing operations and while maintaining or creating Defensible Space rather than Structure Defense.

              You MUST set the example for them to follow. Remember to tell people what to do instead of what not to do. This especially includes using and wearing your PPE properly.

              Read Extreme Ownership by Jokko Willink and Leif Babin and Turn Your Ship former Navy SEALS Around by retired U.S. Navy Captain L. David Marquet.

              Here’s a link for a TedTalk by Jokko Willink
              https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ljqra3BcqWM

      • Joy A Collura says

        I clicked on the link you shared on the lady who lost Eric-

        I think she looks amazing and she has gone through some body changes since the YHF

        and well she looks like she is on top of the world “happy” …real genuine happy…healthy happy…

        and probably she just is placing it public because in the link you shared it does show her with quite a few different men standing next to her but none appear to be her husband

        so that may of caused some wild land firefighters to think maybe they were okay to try and see where she was at—on that area not realizing she is private and not gonna post public certain stuff probably because of this site…

        or she is just naturally like that…private or

        maybe they too notice like me that she looks good after all she has gone through…

        some guy just wanting a part to it because I learned this week women are God’s gift to men so maybe he thought she was gifted to him…who knows… and maybe some do not know she is married

        I mean you have to admit Gary—she really is doing a great job for Eric and the foundation…and I read this comment she made from link—

        “ericmarshfoundationwildland Thanks! Most people are amazing! But there are those few who push too far. Most people don’t. But this guy just was pressuring me to call him, commenting on the way we look and just a bit aggressive. It happens a few times a month. Best to just make it known that I am happily married and a widow for crying out loud, and I don’t need nor am I seeking attention. And instead of an apology, the guy seemed to blame me and was super insulted that I stood up to him. Anyway, back to business as usual. The foundation is awesome and we are doing amazing things:) ”

        in that comment I saw that she said she “stood up” to the fella and I ain’t no looker like her not even close to being pretty as she is nor can I ever be… poor genetics …but I also do not get a couple times a month hit on like her (never in my life) as she stated on the comment—

        well if I do get hit on

        it is deadly rattlesnakes (2009)

        and timing is odd I recently was paid a compliment not hit on for my weight loss…been a journey…(so maybe these are just compliments from the men…and so who knows…)

        lost 81 pounds so far…I did lose more but gained some back thru Holidays and lost some…so a few pounds more to go for that 100 pound loss again…

        I have no clue how a women is to handle a situation like such
        ( I live in a ghost town and hang out with critters and caves and very old people and read Louis L’Amour books Sonny’s sis gave me and Charles Casmir Lipinski)

        except in the day when I kept females on my roster I was way too shallow and had only hot girls around so I never was bothered myself…but that phase happened because I was well sought after to airbrush them to look spot on…I knew how to light and shadow the entire body to looks it best…man or woman even rugged men I airbrushed…because they like their liquor and had the richard cranium do disease they had…so I made it appear a 6 pack and toned…not their reality.

        but there were alot of moments those ladies had ALOT no matter if we went to the spa or wherever and they were always just kind to them regardless the men’s tones or behaviors and so that would be my suggestion versus doing that just appreciate the fact you are getting comments…alot of women don’t.

        I, myself, just be me and that is take a ice soak and do zip but if I take the time out to get ready I can and even then I don’t bother because makeup is a waste of energy… rather be out killing me a wild animal than getting comments from one…I am too rugged and reserved that way…I rather be fishing…and not for that…

        HOW DO MEN EXPECT WOMEN TO REPLY WHEN THEY ARE APPROACHED LIKE SHE APPARENTLY IS—GOOD PLACE TO WRITE ON IT IS ON THIS SITE WHERE WF COME—HOW DO YOU MEN LIKE WOMEN TO BE?

        Fourth day of fast almost done and today I feel it but Holiday poundage is gone…whatever bad I did is temporarily erased and I say temporary because that scale likes to fluctuate…”motherf’er”

        ———————
        gary said-

        I know that down deep…RTS still loves me, he just finds it hard sometimes to do so. 🙂

        MY REPLY: yeah I think he still loves me too even though I give him hard moments, Gary especially so late at night

        I ramble the most on here…that late because what else is there to do at 3am?

        “boredom stop bys”

        Gary said:
        He remembers how we picked up his slack on the Murdoch Basin Fire of 1979 in the Wasach Mountains when he and his crew were shirkers.
        MY REPLY:
        how come RTS has not shown young pics of him like you and Bob and Norb…???

        I remember June 1983 Gary–Firefighters battling blazes in Chiricahuas, Huachucas…near the Methodist camp, the fire was moving away from the camp… Lee Poague maybe can help you…he is almost 90 and lives by Sonny in Alamogordo NM..shit I was 11 when that fire happened…time flies…they had so many on that fire…

        • Gary Olson says

          Small world Joy…the Scott Fire in 1983 on the Coronado National Forest was in the Chiricahua Mountains above Sierra Vista. The fire camp was being run out of Fort Huachaca when we weren’t spiked out, which was the entire time we were there until we got sent home early because where we were was a long helicopter flight to the very top of the mountain range until we got rained out, but we were supposed to go back to finish and tie off the fire lines.

          Most wildland firefighters don’t have photos of the fires they go on Joy. Cameras are discouraged and most people don’t have time or access to where the fire is for lots of reasons. That is why the most of the photos I have are so unusual and special.

          I had a guy on my crew for all three years I was Crew Boss on the Coconino who was a professional photographer. He was a hippie kind of guy and a very close friend of mine. He spent the off season primarily hiking to very remote places in the Grand Canyon to take photos, although he also traveled to other remote locations.

          He always had photos in the Sierra Club Calender and in other publications like that and a lot of his photos were made into post cards. The last time I heard he was photographing up in Alaska in and around Glacier National Park.

          He was a senior crewman who was our equipment manager. I have a few photos I took with an instmatic camera in 1974-1977. But I stopped carrying one when I became crew boss and I don’t have any photos of the Santa Fe Hotshots because he couldn’t move there with us so I lost him. That is why so many of my photos are really professional grade photos if you look at them closely.

          He (Mark Jefferson) was such a hard worker and so good, he could do the work of 1.5 Hotshots and take photos. Every year at the end of the fire season, we would have an entire evening with a slideshow of all of his photos for the entire year in our dining hall and every crewman could write down the number of the photos they wanted and then in a few weeks, Mark would give each of us our photos.

          He put a little on top to compensate him for the extra work, but nobody cared, and if they did, they just didn’t order any. That is why most of my photos are of my favorite subject…me. I also tried to order a wide range that showed the job of being a hotshot in general.

          Of course all of my photos spent decades in photo albums with no one ever seeing them. I mean…who could ever have seen the invention of scanners, computers, the Internet, web sites and this blog. But now it is here and I have something few other WF do…photos.

          I have about five hundred Jefferson photos. He took thousands every year. Can you imagine what his photo library looks like?

          Everyone who is interested should watch the video I made out of most of my photos. That is one more thing I never saw coming…a video I could make with my photos with a cool soundtrack I made up from fire sounds, helicopter sounds and a pop song that is very cool.

          http://ourfiregods.com/happyjackhotshots.html

          • Gary Olson says

            I just watched my video. All of the poor quality photos are ones I took with that instamatic camera and have my name on them.

            All of the professional photos were taken with a professional grade camera Mark carried. I put his name on his photos when I made the slideshow.

            At the very beginning there are two guys standing in front of my Dodge Powerwagon that was parked at the Grand Canyon. Mark is the guy on the left, there are also other photos of him including on with him using spikes to limb a tree next to our barracks. We went hiking in the canyon every year while we were laid off.

            I do have two photos from the Santa Fe Hotshots. One is at the end with some of the crew around the esprit de Corps sign I had made and put in front of our offices, fire cache and training room…it is a very cool sign no one could get away with today, I made up the slogan.

            The other photo is of me sitting on a log at the very end of the slideshow wearing a Santa Fe Hotshot jacket because it was cold and wet on a fire on the Gifford Pinchot National Forest at Thanksgiving time. In Washington State. It had been a control burn that got away from them. You can see black charred lines on the trees around me.

            The very last photo is of me standing on a hill explaining how I wanted things done to one of my squad bosses. He is on the right hand side and looks like he is standing at attention. Maybe I wasn’t a very nice guy as the crew boss?

            We were very proud of our Santa Fe Hotshot logo.It is what we called “The Three Horsemen” It has a Spanish Conquistador, an Indian Brave on a war pony, and a Anglo mountain man in the middle, which of course represented the three equal and proud races that made up the Santa Fe Hotshots.

            They still use a similar loge with all three, but it is just the busts, like the head and shoulders of all three which I don’t think is anywhere near as cool as our original logo, but I’m not Crew Boss anymore. So…

            I still have the original artwork that was actually done by a crewman from the Laguna Pueblo named Richard Lastyona…my mind works funny. I can’t remember what I did yesterday, but I can remember Richards name?

            • Gary Olson says

              The chick in the bikini at the beginning is my wife. But we are getting a divorce, so….I might have to redo the slideshow?

              • Gary Olson says

                A couple of other interesting notes…if you care? The young woman sitting at the picnic table at the shop reading a training manual near the beginning of the slideshow…is Mary, the first female hotshot on the Coconino who married the squad boss from Mormon Lake Hotshots, Rus Copp.

                Check out the photo of the crewmen who were sharpening some tools using a grinder inside the shop very near Mary’s photo.

                Over their shoulder, is a large photo of a wildfire on the wall. If you look at it close it looks kind of strange. And that is because it is one of Mark’s photos I shrunk down and placed over what was always in that spot.

                What was there, was a nude calender…and I don’t mean a nude calender with bare breasts, I mean it was a NUDE calender of all Native American women the Hopi engine and heavy equipment operators kept there.

                The photo of the nude woman for that month really showed up in the original photo…so I had to cover it up. Now….given the current time, that is pretty funny, nobody even thought about back then, including the various women who were up and around the shop at different times like engine crewmembers or Fire Prevention Techs etc.

                The shop and the heavy equipment operators (who were all Hopi) were run by a Hopi foreman who was about five feet tall and five feet around everybody called The General…and he gave us Hotshots hell, all of the time and he was always scowling while he cussed us out in Hopi.

                • Gary Olson says

                  And of course things have changed again with the explosion of smart phones with video cameras, so the internet is filled with WF today doing all kinds of things.

                  But…I don’t think you will find much from back in my day, like I said, not only were cameras discouraged, it just wasn’t something most people did…they were too busy fightin’ fire or they just didn’t care.

                  • Gary Olson says

                    Joy,

                    You also have to keep in mind, in the old days photos didn’t have much value. Wildland firefighters knew what fires looked like, and nobody else cared. Nobody cared about my photos for decades and you could probably make the argument hardly any one cares now. You had some photos, you look at them once, and then you put them away and forget about them. Most guys on my crew back then didn’t really buy that many of Mark
                    ,s photos for those very same reasons. I bought more than anyone else did, because I was so into being a hotshot, but most guys were on their way somewhere else and being a hotshot wasn’t their lives, things have really changed as I keep saying. Crews are so much more professional today.

                    And do you know what that means?

                    IT MEANS IT IS JUST THAT MUCH MORE SHOCKING THAT 19 GRANITE MOUNTAIN HOTSHOTS, ALMOST THE ENTIRE CREW EXCEPT FOR SAD SACK…WERE BURNED ALIVE IN THIS DAY AND AGE WITH THE HIGH DEGREE OF PROFESSIONALISM, EXPERIENCE, ORGANIZATION, STRUCTURE AND UNDERSTANDING OF WILDFIRE, FIRE BEHAVIOR. I AM STILL…DUMBFOUNDED AS OF TONIGHT. I STILL CANT ACCEPT WHAT HAPPENED ON THE YARNELL HILL FIRE!

          • Joy A Collura says

            FIRST OFF if that is YOU in the middle in grey shirt
            I am FOREVER gonna be nice to you (mainly out of polar bear fears I have)— holy shit —you got crushing arms—and RTS even dares to use intellect next to those arms? whoah now we must reroute the set of balls lowered to RTS—how do you RTS challenge Gary…man, no way…HUGE girth….
            Yeah you could pass for Jabba’s girth measurement—
            YOU ARE SOLID…shit. I only seen this Moab arguement video and it was more mouth fire in that video—so yeah that was a shock…

            GARY SAID:
            Small world Joy…the Scott Fire in 1983 on the Coronado National Forest was in the Chiricahua Mountains above Sierra Vista. The fire camp was being run out of Fort Huachaca when we weren’t spiked out, which was the entire time we were there until we got sent home early because where we were was a long helicopter flight to the very top of the mountain range until we got rained out, but we were supposed to go back to finish and tie off the fire lines.

            MY REPLY- so is this the same time fire with the Carr Peak south of Sierra Vista?….so what I learned about that fire was appx 70-80 FF were on that Chiricahua fire—and 30-40 on the Huachuca blaze…it was a 10 to 1 ratio Federal winning out on who was fighting it…Did you find the 7 aerial tankers to be helpful on that fire, Gary? What team was the one that went in by mules…or did some just look like jackasses…So you got helicoptered in…ok….Was Dr. Ted Putnam on this fire? Was this where the smokejumpers arrived for duty but due to the winds and steep terrain they did not use them? So the Huachucas were the focus huh? So who is Terry Dyess on this fire? Man all these 70’s and 80’s talk of fires reminds me of when my dad’s best friend the logger hated your industry with a passion…and also reminds me of Ben Franklin and YellowFront stores and Tom’s Tavern…and AJ Bayless/Alpha Beta/Lucky’s/Neb’s Market and fill the card up to get free milk…and my favorite Smitty’s where you can shop for food and ammo 😉 or Legend City…Gemco…McCrory’s, TG&Y, Fedmart, Sprouse Reitz,..Woolco, Newberry’s, Wards and Yates. and I use to go crazy dancing with the employees at Ed Debevics…miss those days….
            A night out consisted of family dinner at the Lunt Avenue Marble Club. Their deep fried mushrooms were great….Blakelys gas…the great drive ins where dad smashed us all in the trunk to get in…Pinnacle Peak was a spot in the late 80’s/90’s we took business clients just to get their tie cut off….my brother and I just did castles and coasters and did the rope course and roller coasters and stuff…but do you remember when Metrocenter Mall had a below-grade ice skating rink. Watching skaters from the overlook above was the best way to escape the summer heat and I met/spent time talking as a young teen to Alice Cooper and his family and never knew who he was until my cousin walked up and “freaked out” asking for his autograph and I was actually talking chill with a famous guy; no clue…good ol days…of A R I Z O N A….where my brother met Mick Jagger at circle K….Metrocenter also had a Farrell’s ice cream parlor. My pops dad subscribed to the Phoenix Gazette (afternoon newspaper) and the Arizona Republic on Sunday….You remember when the Brass Armadillo antique mall was Angel’s – a building supply warehouse similar to Home Depot…..We ate breakfast at Sambo’s or Bob’s Big Boy or Furr’s…..You drove to Central and Thomas to have strawberry pie at Big Boy’s because it was a car hop and they brought it to your car…Thrifty’s ice cream IS MY ALL TIME FAV MEMORY…You remember when houses were built with carports instead of garages. Roofs were covered with wood shakes or asphalt shingles instead of stone tiles….still all cookie cutter visions…I remember my dad and I went to Lake Pleasant and he got drunk at that white building bar and handed me a few telephone books to sit on and the keys and said drive kid as a KID and he says STOP THE CAR—he runs so fast—my dad was VERY tall and he ran killed a javalina with his bare hands and carried it back and threw it in the bed of the truck and said drive…and he was bloody as all hell and I thought how did he get blood on him with no knife or gun? He snapped the neck to the point the blood oozed out of the mouth…he took it home and he hung it up in the carport and all the neighbors were disgusted especially Lee Miller who was long term employee to Honeywell…I remember going over to see his kids and I knocked and he said to his wife do not let her in- we have to make a neighborhood point to shun that asshole Bill …because my pops took a knife and drained the javalina on the carport then he took it to be taxidermist and the man asked him for his tag and my pops said no I just saw it and got it- no tag…the man said no you have to have a tag- it’s the law and he is a giant and was like “no, I am the law”…(and he was working for Arpaio I think then so technically…) point was the days where INDIVIDUALISM was ALIVE…more than today due to fear of fines and jail time except Sonny has never ever changed and is an individual who holds no fear and just LIVES…I think Rocksteady comes off like that too…just LIVE…You remember when Big Surf was the place to go to beat the heat. Then hitting the drive in theater to see movie across the street. Here I say I am a 30’s-60’s girl but all I remember is the good times of the 70’s and 80’s…Cheese Crisp at Smitty’s was the best…

            I forgot what I was replying…oh well

            I sure like memories and I am having nice ones this week 😉

            • Gary Olson says

              Joy,

              Yes…that is me in the grey shirt. And I did spend a lot of years in a lot of gyms lifting a lot of weights. I didn’t skimp on the Stair Master, but I think I have a water retention problem. I’m pretty sure it’s not because I eat too much food? I think it’s maybe a thyroid issue? You made me really laugh hard over the whole polar bear comparison.

              That photo was taken just after I retired on the Battlement Creek Fire Staff ride where we were Subject Matter Experts. That is where I first met Dr. Putnam since he had been on that fire as a single resource smokejumper in an overhead capacity.

              The guy on my right, was the lead sawyer (Hardy) and I was running the second saw for our crew on Battlement Creek. The guy on my left (Bill) was there as a crewman. who later became my Number 2 for seven years and he swamped for me when I was a sawyer.

              Hardy left our crew at the end of that season and spent the next 30 years as a USFS smokejumper out of Missoula. He was actually still jumping when that photo was taken and didn’t retire until maybe five years later. Bill was the Helicopter Operations Manager on the Tongass National Forest in southeast Alaska. He is still working today.

              You can see the Battlement Creek Mesa in the background and the photo was taken at a roadside memorial built and maintained by Colorado and the Grand Mesa Fire Department who took the initial suppression action on the fire before it got away from them.

              As far as the Scott Fire goes, I always prided myself (as I have written many times) on being a grunt and a ground pounder and so I never knew anything about anything on fires except for what my specific assignment was and that was the way I liked it.

              There would usually be three or more divisions on a big fire and maybe three or more sectors in each division. And there would maybe be three or more crews per sector. So…I just focused on the fire line I was responsible for and I let others worry about everything else.

              And yes, we were on top of the mountain when the Scott Fire topped out on the and I do remember some air tankers there but I had my hands full since things were going to hell in a hand basket on our line, that fire hit our line with a vengeance in a full frontal crown fire so I didn’t pay much attention to anything else, it was kinda scary, I thought we were going to lose it and then all of our packs and gear would have been lost on the Helispot. It was one of the more exciting fires I was on.

              We spiked out, eventually got rained in, helicopters couldn’t fly, so we had to hump it all of the way down off that mountain in the mud carrying our full packs and all of our tools. And when we finally get to the Drop Point, those stupid fucks told me to load my crew with all of our tools tools into that stakeside truck and it was downhill from there. So…I don’t know who else was on that fire or what they were doing, there could have been some jumpers there?

              • Joy A Collura says

                MY REPLY IS IN CAPS BELOW

                Gary Olson says

                JANUARY 18, 2018 AT 3:31 AM

                Joy, HI GARY

                Yes…that is me in the grey shirt. And I did spend a lot of years in a lot of gyms lifting a lot of weights. I didn’t skimp on the Stair Master, but I think I have a water retention problem.

                WATER WEIGHT—I GET THAT

                I’m pretty sure it’s not because I eat too much food?

                NO WAY—I GET IT—HAVE YOU EVER DONE A 40 DAY FAST—I AM WORKING ON BUILDING TO DO IT…USUALLY BY DAY 12 OR 17 I GIVE UP—

                I think it’s maybe a thyroid issue? You made me really laugh hard over the whole polar bear comparison.
                SHIT YEAH- THAT IS WHAT I FIRST THOUGHT OF—POLAR BEAR…

                That photo was taken just after I retired on the Battlement Creek Fire Staff ride where we were Subject Matter Experts. That is where I first met Dr. Putnam since he had been on that fire as a single resource smokejumper in an overhead capacity. YEAH I RECOGNIZED THE CONOCO GAS STATION…RIGHT…WHATEVER…

                As far as the Scott Fire goes, I always prided myself (as I have written many times) on being a grunt and a ground pounder and so I never knew anything about anything on fires except for what my specific assignment was and that was the way I liked it.OH OK–

                neat link
                http://www.wildlandfire.com/docs/imwtk-ic.htm

          • Joy A Collura says

            FIRST OFF if that is YOU in the middle in grey shirt
            I am FOREVER gonna be nice to you (mainly out of polar bear fears I have)— holy shit —you got crushing arms—and RTS even dares to use intellect next to those arms? whoah now we must reroute the set of balls lowered to RTS—how do you RTS challenge Gary…man, no way…HUGE girth….
            Yeah you could pass for Jabba’s girth measurement—
            YOU ARE SOLID…shit. I only seen this Moab arguement video and it was more mouth fire in that video—so yeah that was a shock…

            GARY SAID:
            Small world Joy…the Scott Fire in 1983 on the Coronado National Forest was in the Chiricahua Mountains above Sierra Vista. The fire camp was being run out of Fort Huachaca when we weren’t spiked out, which was the entire time we were there until we got sent home early because where we were was a long helicopter flight to the very top of the mountain range until we got rained out, but we were supposed to go back to finish and tie off the fire lines.

            MY REPLY- so is this the same time fire with the Carr Peak south of Sierra Vista?….so what I learned about that fire was appx 70-80 FF were on that Chiricahua fire—and 30-40 on the Huachuca blaze…it was a 10 to 1 ratio Federal winning out on who was fighting it…Did you find the 7 aerial tankers to be helpful on that fire, Gary? What team was the one that went in by mules…or did some just look like jackasses…So you got helicoptered in…ok….Was Dr. Ted Putnam on this fire? Was this where the smokejumpers arrived for duty but due to the winds and steep terrain they did not use them? So the Huachucas were the focus huh? So who is Terry Dyess on this fire? Man all these 70’s and 80’s talk of fires reminds me of when my dad’s best friend the logger hated your industry with a passion…and also reminds me of Ben Franklin and YellowFront stores and Tom’s Tavern…and AJ Bayless/Alpha Beta/Lucky’s/Neb’s Market and fill the card up to get free milk…and my favorite Smitty’s where you can shop for food and ammo 😉 or Legend City…Gemco…McCrory’s, TG&Y, Fedmart, Sprouse Reitz,..Woolco, Newberry’s, Wards and Yates. and I use to go crazy dancing with the employees at Ed Debevics…miss those days….
            A night out consisted of family dinner at the Lunt Avenue Marble Club. Their deep fried mushrooms were great….Blakelys gas…the great drive ins where dad smashed us all in the trunk to get in…Pinnacle Peak was a spot in the late 80’s/90’s we took business clients just to get their tie cut off….my brother and I just did castles and coasters and did the rope course and roller coasters and stuff…but do you remember when Metrocenter Mall had a below-grade ice skating rink. Watching skaters from the overlook above was the best way to escape the summer heat and I met/spent time talking as a young teen to Alice Cooper and his family and never knew who he was until my cousin walked up and “freaked out” asking for his autograph and I was actually talking chill with a famous guy; no clue…good ol days…of A R I Z O N A….where my brother met Mick Jagger at circle K….Metrocenter also had a Farrell’s ice cream parlor. My pops dad subscribed to the Phoenix Gazette (afternoon newspaper) and the Arizona Republic on Sunday….You remember when the Brass Armadillo antique mall was Angel’s – a building supply warehouse similar to Home Depot…..We ate breakfast at Sambo’s or Bob’s Big Boy or Furr’s…..You drove to Central and Thomas to have strawberry pie at Big Boy’s because it was a car hop and they brought it to your car…Thrifty’s ice cream IS MY ALL TIME FAV MEMORY…You remember when houses were built with carports instead of garages. Roofs were covered with wood shakes or asphalt shingles instead of stone tiles….still all cookie cutter visions…I remember my dad and I went to Lake Pleasant and he got drunk at that white building bar and handed me a few telephone books to sit on and the keys and said drive kid as a KID and he says STOP THE CAR—he runs so fast—my dad was VERY tall and he ran killed a javalina with his bare hands and carried it back and threw it in the bed of the truck and said drive…and he was bloody as all hell and I thought how did he get blood on him with no knife or gun? He snapped the neck to the point the blood oozed out of the mouth…he took it home and he hung it up in the carport and all the neighbors were disgusted especially Lee Miller who was long term employee to Honeywell…I remember going over to see his kids and I knocked and he said to his wife do not let her in- we have to make a neighborhood point to shun that asshole Bill …because my pops took a knife and drained the javalina on the carport then he took it to be taxidermist and the man asked him for his tag and my pops said no I just saw it and got it- no tag…the man said no you have to have a tag- it’s the law and he is a giant and was like “no, I am the law”…(and he was working for Arpaio I think then so technically…) point was the days where INDIVIDUALISM was ALIVE…more than today due to fear of fines and jail time except Sonny has never ever changed and is an individual who holds no fear and just LIVES…I think Rocksteady comes off like that too…just LIVE…Bikini Car washes…You remember when Big Surf was the place to go to beat the heat. Then hitting the drive in theater to see movie across the street. Here I say I am a 30’s-60’s girl but all I remember is the good times of the 70’s and 80’s…Cheese Crisp at Smitty’s was the best…

            I forgot what I was replying…oh well

            I sure like memories and I am having nice ones this week 😉

            • Robert the Second says

              Joy,

              You posted: ” …and RTS even dares to use intellect next to those arms? whoah now we must reroute the set of balls lowered to RTS—how do you RTS challenge Gary…man, no way…HUGE girth…. … Yeah you could pass for Jabba’s girth measurement— YOU ARE SOLID…shit.”

              I don’t know why this is a big surprise to you. And I would change some slight punctuation by removing the “…” to make this a more accurate statement. YOU [Gary] ARE SOLID shit..

              He is not solid shit all the time, just some of the time..

              • Gary Olson says

                RTS,

                I really feel like our relationship is finally making some significant progress. I really like the way you are opening up and sharing your feelings. I think we both have room to grow while working towards common goals and interests in the future.

                XOXOXO

                • Robert the Second says

                  Gary,

                  Anything for you My Friend when it comes to exposing those types.

                  I will do my best. I did a brief search the other day after you posted this and didn’t come up with anything that caught my eye.

                  The Coronado NF, back in the day, was where the SW Region USFS always sent their ‘disciplinary promotion’ candidates to, when they f**ked up on another Forest in the Region.

                • Robert the Second says

                  Gary,

                  The one above mysteriously reposted from a reply above and then crashed once and posting this now for the third time, which indicates you must be f**king worth it..

                  I too really feel like our relationship is finally making some major progress. I really like the way you are opening up and sharing some of your innermost feelings. I think we both have room to grow while working toward future common goals and interests.

                  I have also included a link to a good article that may help us in our growth, especially you.

                  Thanks, but I will pass on the hugs and kisses.

                  https://www.theblaze.com/news/2014/10/21/liberals-will-unfriend-you-for-disagreeing-with-them-and-six-other-things-revealed-in-huge-study-about-how-americans-see-the-news

                  • Gary Olson says

                    RTS,

                    I’m pretty sure this issue isn’t preventing our relationship from going to the next level. I get most of my news from Breitbart and what doesn’t come from there, I get from monitoring the Drudge Report and Alex Jones, so…I think we’re good.

                    • Joy A Collura says

                      Gary Olson says

                      JANUARY 19, 2018 AT 12:11 AM

                      RTS,

                      I’m pretty sure this issue isn’t preventing our relationship from going to the next level. I get most of my news from Breitbart and what doesn’t come from there, I get from monitoring the Drudge Report and Alex Jones, so…I think we’re good.

                      MY REPLY:
                      all media is not sharing you everything Gary…

                      I don’t believe the media but I take tidbits from them and fact check it

                      but I don’t take it at face value…

                      Anytime in life when I think something is pure that I read

                      ends up I am the laughing joke…

                      so I do not anymore trust what is shown to me…

                      Call me just too sensitive for the real world…

                      I can post the bumper sticker pics if you want…

                      I am on but I have Rim Rock bible studies from 5 to 8 pm today via conference skype

                      and last week I did not “pay attention” much and was writing someone else and my week proved that…

                      due to back channel incoming…

                      I am sorry if I am offending anyone lately by my late night writings—good points and hope to work on that…

                      as well when you placed the link to the widow’s area- it is not our world or our judgement

                      just felt to write what I did because only she knows what is going on there not us

                      yet I always felt if during the PR of ONLY THE BRAVE you never saw her husband in the public online areas

                      except on here someone mentioned it was on her husband’s private public profile then it vanished…

                      that maybe just maybe men did not even know she was even married…

                      and if someone says something to you in compliments or try to attempt to know you in ways you feel are inappropriate married or not or whatever your status is…

                      then still speak kind is all because we all are His…

                      aggression is not needed. We all have our flights and plights and moments…

                      Some quite innocent…some a Freudian slip…some just to mess/joke around 🙁 …some to boost your day 🙂 …whatever the case I learned I myself need to tame my tongue and for that I am very sorry the one(s) I offended on my fast…

                      I wish my eye sight was better like some…

                      Have a great weekend

                      John, new chapter please 🙂

            • Gary Olson says

              RTS,

              Please don’t piss on my little parade and be so grouchy. I am just an old man now who isn’t making any new memories so I have to roll in the old ones. You will get here someday and then you may find more compassion and understanding in your heart.

              XOXOXO

              • Robert the Second says

                Gary,

                I am not pissing on your parade, just making an observation and a comment. I am already there as well except not as grouchy as you.

                I have to tolerate you, so you have to tolerate me. it goes both ways.

                Unless you are in the USFS and one is tolerant only if one agrees with another’s Liberal blather, otherwise one is intolerant.

                • Gary Olson says

                  Whoa now…Joy wasn’t joking about your liberal use of “intellect”, except now I think you might be showing off.

                  Although I am still trying to figure out what she meant when she was wrote about “rerouting your balls?” How would that even work, and why is Joy messin’ with your balls anyway?

                  But…back on point, the last paragraph (this tablet won’t let me copy and paste it) above went right over my head. Whoosh!

                  Although I did notice you upped your game the other day when you described my posts using the word I prefer, which is
                  “diatribe”, rather than the cruder word…”rant.” So…I do want you to know I appreciate that courtesy…thank you!

                    • Robert the Second says

                      Yes indeed, those are definitely good sources. I also like Wall Street Journal and definitely FOX News, with all the beautiful women, especially for their amazing minds, and their gorgeous legs.

                  • Joy A Collura says

                    MY REPLY BELOW

                    Gary Olson says

                    JANUARY 19, 2018 AT 12:24 AM

                    Whoa now…Joy wasn’t joking about your liberal use of “intellect”,
                    I KINDA FIGURED YOU WERE GONNA WRITE THIS GARY

                    except now I think you might be showing off.
                    DOUBT HE IS-

                    Although I am still trying to figure out what she meant when she was wrote about “rerouting your balls?”
                    I WAS REROUTING YOUR SET GARY

                    NOT HIS

                    BECAUSE MANY TIMES I HAVE SAID THE NEW YEARS EVE BALL FALLS BUT MIGHT BE YOUR SET

                    ON HOW YOU WRITE AT TIMES

                    YET NONE HAS EVER SUED YOU

                    AND BECAUSE I SAW YOUR GIRTH AND CRUSHING ARMS AND I HAD NIGHTMARES ON POLAR BEARS—AND YOU REMIND ME NOW OF POLAR BEARS—

                    I THOUGHT AND WONDERED IF RTS EVER SAW YOU BECAUSE HE CAN BE BRAZEN AT TIMES GARY AND LIKE I SAID DUE TO YOUR GIRTH I BOW OUT…

                    AND I WAS AMAZED THE SET HE MUST OF HAD TO WRITE AS I HAVE SEEN HIM BE

                    BOLD

                    AND

                    UNAFRAID

                    WAS ALL—WAS NOT A LITERAL SENSE YET APOLOGIZE FOR THE PERCEPTIONS…

                    https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=have%20the%20balls

                    I AM SORRY GARY…

                    WAS VERY LOCKER ROOM LINGO…

                    BLAME IT ON ALL MY CELEBRITY CHARITY GOLF TOURNAMENTS I PARTICIPATED IN…

                    LEARNED IT THERE

                    WHERE THE GRASS IS GREENER….

                    (BECAUSE IT IS FERTILIZED WITH BULLSHIT)

                    SO ITS JUST ME BULLSHITTING…

                    TO FERTILIZE FURTHER JOKES…

                    SORRY.

                    How would that even work, and why is Joy messin’ with your balls anyway?

                    YEAH NOW I GET WHY I GOT WHAT I GOT THIS WEEK—

                    I WROTE IT FROM ANOTHER PERCEPTION BUT SURE CAN SEE HOW IT WENT THERE

                    WOULD IT BE BETTER IF I AM A TRANSGENDER ;)’

                    WHEN EVOLUTION HAPPENED THEY TOLD ME TO TURN AROUND…GARY…

                    SOMETHINGS GONE WRONG I WAS TOLD

                    …I THOUGHT THEY MEANT MY MIND…MAYBE NOT.

                    Although I did notice you upped your game the other day when you described my posts using the word I prefer, which is
                    “diatribe”, rather than the cruder word…”rant.” So…I do want you to know I appreciate that courtesy…thank you!
                    I NOTICED THAT TOO— HE WAS OFF THIS WEEK— MUST OF BEEN JOKING WITH YOU…HE CAN AT TIMES… 😉

                    • Gary Olson says

                      That’s okay, I can’t think of anything I need my balls for at this point in my life…so, if RTS can use them, he can have them.

  16. Joy A Collura says

    Gary Olson says

    JANUARY 17, 2018 AT 12:46 AM

    Joy,

    RTS made me too sad to respond to anything you said…because as usual you’re…complicated. Please keep me up to speed on Sonny’s condition on the back channel.

    🙁

    MY REPLY—
    no way…there is no way YOU got sad on THAT…I gave the good points to Jabba…

    Complex Joy saying good night…zzzz

    Sonny emailed a little bit ago and he is recovering…he had his son get him out “sooner” little while ago and is recovering with his dogs and he next does the hernia thing and he confirmed when I went into his body and saw what was happening that every point I brought up was spot on…and the doctors confirmed with those diagnosis what I saw so now the Irish keeps keeping on…Amazing huh. He is cut up…and so he as to be careful but I am not gonna say that anymore…he is gonna do what he is gonna do…and he is….and always will…he was a miner and a logger and welder and probation officer and taxi driver and counselor and bartender…7 dangerous jobs and married 6 times another dangerous job…and still alive in spite of all that…so applause goes to this fella who has so many lives…

  17. Joy A Collura says

    Gary said:
    I am watching Morning Joe and checkin’ out Mika, I am old…not dead.

    https://i.kinja-img.com/gawker-media/image/upload/s–ULyxGFJj–/c_scale,fl_progressive,q_80,w_800/kdd8xuty3djigkxymmor.gif

    MY REPLY- let me guess it’s a man thing…right…is this a lesson week for Joy….geez….this site is not for the young and new…oh my.

    Waking up with Mika huh—-I like her neck, Gary…she sure sticks it out there on Trump and her books and speeches

    huh

    by some of the videos I saw from your recent inserts…are you a masochist? I would find it quite painful to watch daily their resentful squawking— a true trainwreck indeed…I never saw the show because I am up at noon due to schedules–have not seen a morning after 6am in almost 6 months because I go to sleep at 6am—

    what I saw from what little I saw was a man telling a woman how wrong she is…then back and forth it went…I can think of BETTER pre-caffeine jolts than that—

    -or better than waking up to her…but that is me—I prefer the sultry looks and clean look of my ever so lovely Veronica Lake…but I am very old fashioned there Gary…I always like the 40’s….the men were such “beef cakes”….

    maybe watching them makes you feel like you are in a much better darker place…YOUR HAPPY PLACE…

    here is an even much darker spot for you—you should be more interested in watching our own Eric Marsh actor currently on Youtube giving himself his own wedgies nowadays… ( h t t p s ://youtu. be/CdzgUwsgKOI )

    Now that’s news…huh

    😉

    either way that media shit is just morphed into some kind of fascination
    and shit if it was not for one of you IM folks I might of spent another second on that tv but I got off that funk…I mean I never thought my fun night with nieces would less than 24 hours get my first moment to my life of incoming newness but it did and I was like a broom beating the shit out of it…so you can have Mika, Gary and I will keep with no media just my INVESTIGATIVEmedia moments is enough…

    what I got from what you said was bottom line situational awareness

    even from the higher ups who hide behind these rules
    as well use them to protect them when need be

    even when things fail and they just blame the ones on the line for not following the rules

    even though like you said it’s a keep a job thing

    but I do find that hard to absorb

    because if I am in the black videoing and taking photos and audio recording and I say NO to my bosses order—

    believe you me they are not gonna put my job out the door because I got the data to prove why I made that sound decision to not move out of the black…and stay alive

    they can try all they want to do their political bullshit much like they are to me as the eyewitness to YHF…

    they can have their push and deny and hide all day long or create something I am not like I saw with some authors who support a narrative…I hang out with folks 80+ years old and I am good with it because that generation you can just be you and not worry…when I ask them which came first THE SWAMP THING or THE MAN THING … they know I mean Marvel comics….marshy curiosities not sexual…and at their age if we talked man thing it usually meant prostate cancer…

    anyways let’s agree that we need a “good sense of humor” to get through this here life and if you want to tell me Mika is a man thing….Than sorry about that and your toilet will glow with radium seeds…you got that to look forward to…

    but I assure the truths no matter if they decide to give me some outrageous “commercial” fee because I fall under OTHER than at that point John Dougherty gets wind of that and I lay it in his lap but I think they rather play the “waiting” game….or it got lost…can you make a new one…

    and I would make a new one…I persevere- on day 3 of my fast and almost the day 4 mark and well I am so very very happy

    • Gary Olson says

      Joy,

      I was just being facetious about the Mika, if you (meaning me) are bored enough you will watch almost anything. I did however, think the SNL skit was really funny. I should go back to Moab…or somewhere.

  18. WantsToKnowTheTruth says

    Reply to Robert the Second ( RTS ) post on January 13, 2018 at 9:21 pm

    >> RTS said…
    >>
    >> Recently revealed, according to several WF, in September 2013,
    >> several of them hiked the likely suspected route of the GMHS
    >> on the afternoon of June 30, 2013. Bailing off the mid-slope
    >> road down toward the BSR, and near the bottom in the lower
    >> third of the slope, they located a Sky Probe antenna from a
    >> Bendix King radio, similar to the one depicted in the link below.
    >>
    >> https://www.vincentcom.com/p-1010-super-skyprobe-oem-high-gain-telescoping-portable-antenna-part-ssp58fmk2-02b.aspx
    >>
    >> This is strong support for the conclusion that the GMHS traveled
    >> down through the unburned brushfield on their way to the BSR.
    >>
    >> I do not know if any of them revealed their finding to any of
    >> the SAIT and/or ADOSH Investigators

    IF this is true… then that ‘antenna’ is potentially a very important piece of evidence.

    Still need to know more details, however, such as whether or not the antenna showed any signs of damage.

    Was it ‘burned’?
    Was it ‘broken’ in any way ( as in, signs of it ‘breaking off’ a handheld )?

    A lot of ‘investigators’ with their own radios and gear had been traversing that same ground between June and September of 2013. If there is no sign of fire damage, then perhaps someone dropped/lost it out there AFTER June 30.

    If there ARE signs of ‘fire damage’… and if it really does show any signs of having ‘broken off’ something… then this piece of ‘evidence’ COULD lend more credence to the theory that ( perhaps ) one of the GM hotshots had taken a bad FALL during the descent into the fuel-filled box canyon… and that this might have caused the whole team to be DELAYED during their descent.

    Proving that one of them had FALLEN and suffered an injury would, in no way, excuse the bad decision making which put them where they were… but it would add to the details of what happened that day and why SPGS1 Gary Cordes would later testify that not only did he KNOW they were “headed to the BSR”… but that he also felt (quote) “they had plenty of time to get there.”

    The existing evidence that this *might* have happened starts with the autopsy reports and the significant blunt-force-injury BRUISES that were found on the head of Clayton Whitted.

    They were the kind of ‘bruises’ that can only happen while you still have some blood pressure in your system to cause the ‘subscalp hemorrhaging ( bleeding )’.

    In other words… they could have only happened while Whitted was still ALIVE.

    This has all been discussed before on another InvestigativeMEDIA thread…

    InvestigativeMEDIA
    Article Title: After years of delay, the Granite Mountain Hotshot autopsy records are released
    Published: December 9, 2015
    http://www.investigativemedia.com/after-years-of-delay-the-granite-mountain-hotshot-autopsy-records-are-released-to-the-public/#comment-319523

    From one of the discussions in the comments section about the injuries to Clayton Whitted’s head listed in his autopsy report…

    ———————————————————————————————————-

    ** CLAYTON WHITTED’S FOREHEAD INJURIES

    From the Medical Examiner’s report…

    Clayton Whitted – Evidence of blunt force injuries include a 4×3 cm area of left frontal subscalp hemorrhage and a 3×1 cm area of right frontal subscalp hemorrhage.

    DIMENSIONS…

    4 x 3 cm area = 1.57 inch x 1.18 inch area ( Slightly smaller than a book of matches ).
    3 x 1 cm area = 1.18 inch x 0.39 inch area ( Slightly smaller than the one above ).

    Definition of Hemorrhage…

    A hemorrhage may be “external” and visible on the outside of the body or “internal,” where there is no sign of bleeding outside the body. Bleeding from a cut on the face is an external hemorrhage. Bleeding into the spleen or liver are examples of internal hemorrhage.

    So basically… ‘Hemorrhage’ means ‘Bleeding’ and ‘subscalp’ obviously means ‘under the scalp’.

    ‘Left frontal subscalp’ is referring to the the LEFT forehead, as you are facing the person, and ‘Right frontal subscalp’ refers to the RIGHT forehead, as you are facing the person.

    So what this is all basically saying is that Whitted took some ‘blow’ to the forehead ( while he was still ALIVE ) that was hard enough to cause bleeding under the scalp ( but not break the skin ) in two places on either side of his forehead, above his eyebrows.

    The spot on the left side of his forehead was pretty big ( 1.57 inch x 1.18 inch ).

    That’s just slightly smaller than a standard ‘book of matches’.

    The spot on the right side of his forehead was smaller and thinner ( 1.18 inch x 0.39 inch area ), which is the same ‘width’ of a book of matches but only about as tall as the ‘striking area’ of the matchbook.

    NOTE: The Medical Examiner’s report for Whitted makes NO ATTEMPT to explain the head injury or what might have CAUSED it.

    My guesses for Whitted’s head injury might be ( in order of probability? )…

    1. He ‘stood up’ during the burnover itself, then passed out and fell face first onto one of those rocks that were all over the ground where they died.

    2. The possibility of him trying to ‘knock himself out by banging his head on a rock, or something, DURING the burnover. This very thing has been reprted by others who have survived burnovers. When the pain becomes unbearable… it is not uncommn to consider trying to ‘knock yourself out’ in an effort to escape the pain.

    3. Whitted *might* have had a fall and suffered the head injuries sometime prior to the deployment, but it wasn’t all that bad of an injury to report on the radio or request any medical attention ( at least in their minds, anyway ).

    If it happened on the hike down into the canyon… it MAY have been the source of a DELAY in their hike while everyone huddled around him to make sure he was OK.

    In other words… it wouldn’t have taken an actual sprain or ankle break to cause a serious DELAY while they were hiking down and completely blind to the fire.

    We already know they were so unconcerned about the ‘move’ they had decided to make that they weren’t even ‘hurrying’ on that first part of their hike on the two-track, from the ‘resting spot’ south to the ‘descent point’.

    That same ( false ) sense of ‘no reason to hurry’ might have persisted as they dropped down into the blind box canyon.

    So any ‘fall’ on the way down… with ANY kind of injury… would have caused an unanticipated DELAY while everyone stopped to make sure that one man was OK to continue, and they didn’t realize how much trouble they were getting into with each passing minute.

    NOTE: The SAIR report actually tells us that Clayton Whitted was, in fact, found lying prone ( FACE DOWN ).

    But it does also say his shelter was ‘partially on him’ when he was found.

    So maybe he did try and ‘stand up’, but then fell face down again and hit his forehead on the ground, causing those ‘blunt force’ injuries at that time.

    From page 96 of the Arizona Forestry SAIR document…
    ———————————————————————————————————-
    Clayton Whitted – Granite Mountain #4

    3. Body Position: The firefighter was found lying prone with feet towards the northeast.

    4. Shelter Use – It is unclear whether the firefighter was able to fully deploy the shelter. The firefighter was mostly deployed inside the fire shelter; the legs and back were covered by the shelter.
    ——————————————————————————————————-

    But now… if some ‘broken antenna’ really was found on the ‘descent path’… it would increase the probability that Clayton Whitted fell *might* have fallen during the DESCENT into the fuel-filled box canyon, and not at the deployment site itself.

    Any chance you can just tell us WHO these FFs were that ( supposedly ) found this antenna?

    • Joy A Collura says

      Gary said:
      Therefore, the only rule that is worth being redundant with is, “Fight fire aggressively but provide for safety first”, in my opinion. That is the way I was taught to fight fire and that is the way I fought fire and the way I taught others to fight fire. Others can, and have fought fire as they have find or have found best for them.
      MY REPLY- RTS, do you think Gary is right here stating Fight fire aggressively…shouldn’t the word fight be changed to LIGHT fires aggressively? Help me understand.

      Smiling.

      I did not see anyone raise their hands for a new chapter so we are stuck in this rabbit hole of a chapter. Who gets the role as the mad hatter?

      • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

        Another chapter would be good.

        This chapter is already failing to completely load in some smartphone browsers.

    • Robert the Second says

      WTKTT,

      Thanks for the reply with your details and the other insight.

      I am hoping that Joy will chime in on this because she may some knowledge about this as well.

      I will do my best on finding more details on the condition of the antenna, however, very unlikely on the WF identities unless they give me their okays to do so..

  19. Robert the Second says

    Recently revealed, according to several WF, in September 2013, several of them hiked the likely suspected route of the GMHS on the afternoon of June 30, 2013. Bailing off the mid-slope road down toward the BSR, and near the bottom in the lower third of the slope, they located a Sky Probe antenna from a Bendix King radio, similar to the one depicted in the link below.

    https://www.vincentcom.com/p-1010-super-skyprobe-oem-high-gain-telescoping-portable-antenna-part-ssp58fmk2-02b.aspx

    This is strong support for the conclusion that the GMHS traveled down through the unburned brushfield on their way to the BSR.

    I do not know if any of them revealed their finding to any of the SAIT and/or ADOSH Investigators

    • Joy A Collura says

      Sonny was hospitalized in the past 24 hours- keep you posted—

      My dad was always puzzled when I was a tot reading Og…that man is ingrained into the person I am, Gary

      I hiked today and on the hike I made typo errors below due to sun glare and IM glitches
      I came back and fell asleep thinking about your ONE RULE and as it has its point it is also dangerous to sum it up that way

      Bob Powers and RTS firmly spoke of these rules so early on here on IM…
      I was a pain always prodding and always asking and re-asking…

      I would inquire sooooo much that I dragged it into muddy waters and back because I was like what?

      So lets blame the men breaking rules RTS and Bob?…I back then pondered

      but I did that because I know more data than RTS and Bob that always TRUTH will push to the forefront at His time…

      but I never disregarded these fine men. They must of been like get this girl off here with these redundancy debates and inquiries

      but I am am better person because of those times.

      I “listened” and I learned and researched…and I am not a firefighter yet those rules are so ingrained in my daily life and I applaud and appreciate the debates and firm stand-hold of these 2 men we had over and over.

      I am a better hiker because of them. A better person. I know me who gave them such a hard time is on a public forum saying this…because it is the right thing to do because you have spoken Gary to say you have ONE RULE…

      Just today Gary-
      I saw my leg giving out but I thought about not telling John and just push myself and I was at 2.47 miles out at that point when I saw myself pushing on and I credit RTS’s wisdom of sharing here for this week’s push…

      I looked around and knew I had a lookout and I knew he was there if I needed to communicate a need if it aroused then as I climbed the hill I was looking for easiest escape route and safe areas in case I passed out or collapsed…

      what those men wrote on IM is ingrained in all my walks and I am not a firefighter but I am safer because of them…

      and if its ingrained than its just natural as my one foot in front of the other…

      and it is not something to be remembered but lived and felt…you should know all the rules by just being a wild land firefighter and if you do not when you wake up “read them” silently and at lunch “read them” silently and at dinner “read them” silently and when you go to bed “read them” aloud. It should be a part of your fire industry DNA and each one out there’s souls…to keep you alive.

      You follow them then you come home alive.

      when I go outside I see the sky..the terrain..the weather…and recently there was a fire here and I called the residents to alert them and they said should I stop watching tv and I said I am here to make you aware…its your duty and responsibilities to do with the data to be safe not my duty to run to your rescue IN PERSON…and they said oh ok Joy the fire dept will send us a evacuation alert if I need to get up away from my tv… 🙁

      so you all here have that ingrained in me too…keep my eye on the fire and watch the size and the color of plumes and watch weather…

      YOU ARE A TRUE LEADER BOB AND RTS…and not institutionalized…those are rubbish comments of Gary…and a disrespect to the DNA…and you both.

      and the 10 and 18 and lces are crucial as water is to a firefighter…or any human being…it is a dangerous role Gary is spreading this one rule because dropping down a canyon he will lack the essentials…

      like when we live each day not getting our bodies NEEDS… water and antioxidants and etc…food is life…basic knowledge like the learning center LCES AND 10 AND 18…we need them…

      it actually is easy…but Gary is making it very complicated by one rule but without me knowing and feeling and living with my water and the rules to live healthy…things happen to the body and it shows on my vlog the changes that happen when I don’t stay mindful…

      I also would ingrain in my crew the terrain we step on know it…so many times with these research tools you see what they are doing real time on their fire tactics and yeah some are just not getting it or not trained enough or not adult enough…but there is areas needing improvements…otherwise I would not be at the level I am at trying to ensure changes are made…

      Now Gary is not wrong by his ONE RULE content but its well known you do not drop down into a canyon with fire in the areas yet you also know you do not leave the black a safe zone either when there is additional data and activities happening and one can obviously see it from their standpoint…yeah so there is more than one rule…

      You remind me when I cook or bake I never go by a recipe I just make from the heart of love and damn is your palette left salivating for more…I never followed rules or instructions unless I worked for Naples or a restaurant that had to have “consistency” so I had to follow their recipe rules…but my jobs respected me soooo much I was in charge of the daily specials that had no rules or recipes…mine was what people internationally came to the place for—the specials- the owners knew it too. They wanted my specials on the menu but I never could because I do from the heart and I cook with love; no recipes…Sonny can tell you I can make a steak melt in your mouth and you can cut it with a bread knife after I have worked my marbleizing magic…caramelizing was also one of my favorite things to do—I love to capture you through your tummy…always has been my passion….

      anyways I was hurt when Gary was debating the rules…yes, me…I was like I can see me not a firefighter not grasping it but Gary???? Man, Gary. Seems each year when that New Years Eve ball drops…we are talking your set gets lower and lower and more brazen and not thinking too much about the future because dropping down in the canyon could be a good golden rule but there has to be more to this…because I am not comprehending…and that is not too hard…but you survived and lived through all the years you put in and you are saying ONE RULE so help me understand and feel that ONE RULE…help me disregard the DNA of set rules and learn your way…

      I ask myself is Gary’s comment a good habit to adapt to FORGET ALL RULES but ONE?

      Should I erase all I learned from RTS and Bob and listen to Gary…a new way…a new life on things?

      I guess your reasoning I find myself at the decision corner or countering?

      I love the qualities of IM and what it offers and challenges and disregards…this site on here and off here “back channel” has made me THINK not just of fire actions but life actions too…

      recently a topic I had almost 6 months ago came up in another way and I am not mature enough to know how to interact so I found my self OVER analyzing a simple comment

      and I did not know if I was doing it because I thought God was testing/seeing if I learned from my error (growth level)(like testing me) because at that moment did not seem like an error…shit it ain’t no different then anyone who has a vice to life may it be substance or chew or whatever makes you feel like you are alive and living…
      but I felt it was not ever a comment I get incoming for my life so didn’t know what to do with the data…just say “thanks” and move along……???…on something that lays foreign to my existence. Yet yesterday what it did Gary was put a shine in my eyes, unwrinkle my brow, brought a smile to my lips, and echo in my heart and voice…I had not been able to move literally and that moment I said let’s go walk tomorrow and we did today and I USE all the rules of your industry…even the one rule one too…I am happy because of the people here sharing…it means something to me. I know it means alot to many as I get the back channel feedback…There are some who think John Dougherty will one day turn this blog into a book and I do not see it but RAISE YOUR HAND FOR A NEW CHAPTER at least…

      HEY JOHN—- new chapter request please 🙂
      thanks.

      • Gary Olson says

        Joy,

        If you follow sound wild land firefighting principles, tactics and strategies you are automatically following all of the rules that have been named here and all of the rules that are inherent in the job that haven’t been formally identified yet.. Naming some of them while failing to name all of them, is absurd and is the provenience of the Department of Redundancy Department and the Department of Incompleteness..

        Therefore, the only rule that is worth being redundant with is, “Fight fire aggressively but provide for safety first”, in my opinion. That is the way I was taught to fight fire and that is the way I fought fire and the way I taught others to fight fire. Others can, and have fought fire as they have find or have found best for them.

        You are oversimplifying what I wrote. The memorializing some of the rules but excluding others was a knee jerk reaction by those in the Chief’s Office of the U.S. Forest Service in 1957 when they started with 10 of them. And then they said, whoops and added some more. And then they said whoops and added some more. And then they said whoops and added some more. They are still saying whoops and adding them today.

        I started out observing all of them on day 1 and saved all of the whoops and adding more every time someone else was killed. So….to review. IF you are following sound wild land firefighting principals, tactics and strategies all of the time, you are also fighting fire aggressively but providing for safety first at the same time.

        Those who lack competence, experience and common sense need to write them down and constantly review them, but unfortunately by doing so, they are standing to close to the elephant to see the elephant and therefore putting themselves and other at risk..

        Do you think wild land firefighting is the only job that is inherently dangerous? How about structural firefighting? How many of their rules are written down for everyone to memorize and constantly review? That isn’t a rhetorical question since I don’t know anything about structural firefighting and they may have some for all I know?

        I do however, know about another inherently dangerous job and that is law enforcement. And the inherent dangers are to numerous and varied for anyone to write them all down for others to memorize and follow. It makes more sense to competently train those who do the job on sound law enforcement practices, tactics and strategies and then tell them something like, “Let’s be careful out there” to remind them that they should, “Fight crime aggressively but provide for safety first.”

        Now….I just repeated everything I wrote down below which if you would have read and comprehended first, you could have saved me the time of repeating what I have already wrote. But since I like you….I think you are worth it. And if you don’t agree, that’s okay because when you are a wild land firefighting supervisor you can do it your way…or not.

        • Gary Olson says

          The whole, “Hotshot Rule of One”, which is, “Stay out of canyons above or in front of a wild fire” is just being tongue-in-cheek and if you don’t understand that, I am more than happy to clue you in since I value your participation here on this thread because that is a rule that should have been written by the Department of Obvious just like, “If you feel like taking a nap near the fire line you are really one stupid dumb ass” but apparently some really stupid dumb ass did fe

          el like taking a nap near the fire line and was either hurt or killed so they wrote a rule that say’s you shouldn’t do it.

          But…do you want to know how disingenuous and hypocritical that rule is? That is a rhetorical question because I have been bedded down by fire team overhead in numerous spike camps on the fire line that were burned over while we were sleeping in them. Sometimes we had to evacuate the spike camp and sometimes we just waited for the wildfire to burn around us. The point is, that is one stupid rule to write down for some stupid people to waste their time memorizing.

          And the reason most agencies even try to memorialize rules and put them in “General Order”, “Standard Operating Procedures” or whatever they call their internal rules and regulations is so when an employee does violate one of those rules and something bad happens, the agency can say “Hey…it’s not our fault, we told them not to do it” IF they want to hang that employee out to dry.

          If on the other hand, the agency violates one of those rules or they are violated by someone who they don’t want to hang out to dry, they pretend the rules don’t exist, or don’t apply. It’s just a “Cover Their Ass” if they want to use it which is normally referred to as a CYA which stands for “Cover Your Ass.”

          Like everything. It’s complicated and only simple people who aren’t capable of nuance like RTS don’t get it.

          • Gary Olson says

            And IF you remember, or even if you don’t…I started this whole conversation by stating I have gone along with RTS and Bob up until now and showed my belly numerous times in the face of their bullshit just because I didn’t want to go down this road because it is complicated and nuanced and requires those who participate in this king of discussion to be ably to distinguish what works for them and makes sense and what doesn’t.

            For example…the entire SAIR by the SAIT is an example of this issue. No one includes them believes that NONE of the rules were violated by Marsh and Steed…that is a colossal JOKE, EVERYONE, including them know Marsh and Steed violated almost all of the rule that have been written down and some that haven’t…like, “Don’t deliberately lie and deceive the fire overhead team and everyone else what you are really doing because you want to pull a fast one and get away with being wayyyyy to cute for your own good, not to mention the good of those whose lives you are responsible for.”

            That’s a pretty good fuckin’ rule wouldn’t you say? That’s a pretty fuckin’ important rule for everyone to follow…right? But have you seen that fuckin’ rule written down on any of RTS’ or Bob’s lists of rules? No? How come? It’s because not all of the rules are written down…just some of them are.

            • Gary Olson says

              So…why are the SAIT lying with their SAIR? I think there are at least three reasons and all of them are right to some extent. But that all depends on how you feel about the SAIT and the fuckin’ agencies they represent.

              Here is a copy of an email I received in the back channel that describes those reasons better than I can.

              “I think there’s guilt involved and an attempt to heal the living in the report not ripping GM a new one. There’s also considerations of protecting major players in the game. Call it double-cya.”

              Except it is actually a triple-CYA depending on how you count your CYS’s.

                  • Gary Olson says

                    As a matter of fact, Overhead on the Hog Fire of 1977 on the Shasta Trinity National Forest bedded hundreds of WF down in a spike camp and they could see the fire, or they should have been able to see the fire, would reach the camp that night.

                    Our crew boss saw that it would and he pulled us out to a safe location and then we watched as hundreds of WF went running down the back slope in the middle of the night and at least one person ran into a tree and knocked herself unconscious.

                    So…if it is a written rule that if, “You feel like taking a nap near the fire line” is a situation that “Shouts Watch Out!”, what is it when overhead bed hundreds of firefighters down ON the fire line that is about to be burned over?

                    It is actually the unofficial second rule that should always be observed by wild land firefighters in addition to, “Fight fire aggressively but provide for safety first” and that is, “Watch Out for Death From Above From Overhead.”

                    But…if you are already, “Fighting fire aggressively but providing for safety first”, you are already ignoring Overhead when you need to so it is a Redundant Order written by the Department of Redundancy Department. Get it? It’s complicated and should only be part of an “Advanced Discussion.”

                    • Gary Olson says

                      Joy,

                      Let me try this another way by using the original 10 Standard Firefighting Orders.

                      If you were a professional, experienced, competent, capable, knowledgeable, etc., wildland firefighter, would you really need a list to tell you to keep informed on fire weather conditions and forecasts, know what your fire is doing at all times, base all actions on current and expected behavior of the fire, identify escape routes and safety zones and make them known, post lookouts when there is possible danger, be alert, keep calm think clearly. act decisively, maintain prompt communications with your forces, your supervisor, and adjoining forces, give clear instructions and ensure they are understood. maintain control of your forces at all times. and fight fire aggressively, having provided for safety first?

                      Or would you do those things because you professional, experienced, competent, capable, knowledgeable, etc., wildland firefighter?

                      Would you ever say to yourself, or others…well, I was going to NOT be alert, NOT keep calm NOT think clearly. and NOT act decisively, BUT…thank God there is a rule that I should be alert, should keep calm, should think clearly and should act decisively…so I am going to do that instead?

                      Or are you going to be alert, keep calm, think clearly, and act decisively because you are professional, experienced, competent, capable, knowledgeable, etc., wildland firefighter?

                      I know what I would do and did do when I was a professional, experienced, competent, capable, knowledgeable, etc., wildland firefighter, I did those things because those were the common sense and OBVIOUS things to do as a professional, experienced, competent, capable, knowledgeable, etc., wildland firefighter.

                      Just go down the list and ask yourself…do I need any of those things on a list in order to do them? Or are those the things I am going to do because I want to put the fire out and then go home?

                      But that is not to say, that everyone who goes through the training to become a professional, experienced, competent, capable, knowledgeable, etc., wildland firefighter shouldn’t be trained because those are all sound principles of competent wildland firefighting techniques, tactics and strategies.

                      Is this horse dead enough for you? Or should I keep beating it?

                    • Gary Olson says

                      Okay…just one more point because you wrote so many things above that are really insulting to me even though you didn’t understand that when you wrote them.

                      Don’t structural firemen and police officers among just two professions need to be alert, keep calm, think clearly, and act decisively?

                      Yes…they do. Why don’t they have a similar lists that tells them that is what they should be doing?

                      And the answer is…it’s because no one from the U.S. Forest Service Office of the Chief, sat down in 1957 (or anyone else at any other time) and wrote such a list up for them as a knee jerk reaction to fix a problem by making a list.

                      The danger with that kind of list…is that IF a wildland firefighter does not keep alert, calm, think clearly, and act decisively they can use violating those orders as a means to discipline up to firing that person…IF that is what they want to do.

                      Now…that is once again an over simplification, but similar things happen every day to someone somewhere in this country. Law enforcement is really bad at doing that and federal law enforcement is really bad at that and people lose everything they have worked their entire lives for if someone has the ass for them…and they don’t know where enough bodies are buried as an insurance policy to use as blackmail…or whitemail.

                      That’s why Jesse Steed took his crew down that chute even though he knew he was putting his crew at an unacceptalbe risk. Jesse Steed knew he had to keep bringing home a paycheck and his kids and wife needed the health insuracne he provided and he worked for two vindictive and petty supervisors, one was named Eric Marsh and the other is named Darrell Willis. So Jesse Steed took his crew down that chute or canyon or chimney, whatever you want to call it because he didn’t want to lose his job or even jeopardize it.

                      I was faced with the same choice on the Scott Fire on the Coronado National Forest (and many other times) and thank God I was always confident enough in my position and my supervisors so I was never afraid enough of being sent home from a fire with crew after being relieved of my command for disobeying orders and that was before there was a form you could fill out in order to officially disobey orders.

                    • Gary Olson says

                      And the termination letters go something like this.

                      To; Captain Jesse Steed
                      Re: Immediate Termination For Cause

                      On June 30, 3013, while on the Yarnell Hill Fire you did not keep alert, calm, think clearly, and act decisively in direct violation of General Order 13.1.

                      Your immediate supervisor, Division Alpha Eric Marsh ordered you three seperate times to obey his direct order to keep alert, calm, think clearly, and act decisively and you refused his direct order.

                      Therefore, you are hereby terminated from your employment from the City of Prescott, Prescott Fire Department for disobeying the direct orders of your immediate supervior and General Order 13.1.

                      If you disagree with this decesion, you have the right to appeal this decision to the Merit System Protection Board or whatever within 30 days, but you are going to be doing it from your kitchen table at home and your paycheck will already have stopped and your insurance cards for your kids will have already stopped working…so good luck with that you stupid fuck. You should have done what you were ordered to do, your replacement will know better next time and follow the orders that have been given to him.

                    • Gary Olson says

                      P.S.,

                      And even if you do win when and if you appeal our decision to the Merit System Protection Board and get your job back…it will be five years from now, you will have already lost your house to foreclosure, your wife will have left you three years earlier, your kids will already be calling another man daddy, you will be an alchoholic by then and you will get A job with the City of Prescott back, but it won’t be with the Prescott Fire Department, you will have negotiated with the city attorney because you don’t have an attorney and you live in your car to take a job at your old salary minus all of the overtime, hazard pay etc, you used to earn at whatever department we want to stick you so you will be the most miserable.

                      Been there…done some of that and was afraid of the rest of and I wouldn’t recommend it.

                    • Gary Olson says

                      Oh…and one more thing.

                      None of that happened because Captain Jesse Steed led his crew down that chimney as he followed Eric Marsh’s flagging into wildland firefighting infamy.

                      And you know the rest of the story…right?

                    • Joy A Collura says

                      commonly known as…
                      the Dweeb here
                      🙂

                      Hi Gary

                      http://0.media.collegehumor.cvcdn.com/97/57/f04eda52a697958fdc8ddb9c6c5cb03e-tweeting-a-dead-horse.jpg

                      It appears the horse is dead, Gary….

                      unless it is a centaur…

                      then you might see the head pop out

                      and say

                      “Look at me”…”I am the centaur of attention”…

                      but after that photo if it is a centaur he might want to change his online dating profile from the waist up…

                      he looks roughed up…anyways, Gary…I want to say I got it
                      but I am like WTH on breaking news today with David Turpin & Louise Turpin…

                      Seriously? I mean where was the awareness or being weary from the people who lived near them? Shit, imagine if that was one of yours being mistreated…that is messed up…And how many kids was it…man…shew…I can see that in the 1700s and that being a good thing but WTH…

                    • Gary Olson says

                      Joy,

                      I am watching Morning Joe and checkin’ out Mika, I am old…not dead.

                      So…here is the bottom line for me if I can sum it up. All of those rules and guidelines are good and should be followed. I mean, who is going to argue that you shouldn’t base your actions on current and expected fire behavior?

                      All I’m trying to say is that not all behavior needs to be or can be codified and memorialized by someone in order for a professional Wildland Firefighter who has been properly trained to competently fight fire using sound wildland firefighting principle, tactics and strategies to do his or her job the right way.

                      .And now that list is up somewhere around 50 written rules. I think Paul Gleason was on to something when he advocated condensing and simplifying those rules into a form that is more manageable.

                      And the reason I never led my crew down any canyon to their deaths is because I never had any petty or vindictive supervisors or managers I was afraid of and I was never afraid of losing my job as a hotshot crew boss. I would be lying if I said I wasn’t concerned when I was flying home with my crew to Santa Fe in a jet that had been charted special to send us home from the Scott Fire, that was…concerning.

                      But…when I arrived in Santa Fe I went immediately to the Forest FMO who was friends with the IC who had sent us home because all of those guys were friends, it’s was one big good ole boys club and I said…Ray (Page) do you want to see me? He leaned back in his chair and said…”About what?”

                      I replied about being sent home with my crew from the Scott Fire. Ray swiveled around and looked out his window and said, “You can’t please all of the people all of the time” and he went back to working on whatever he had been working on when I walked in.

                      The reason I think Captain Jesse Steed did work for petty and vindictive supervisors and managers is because he clearly recognized how dangerous it was going to be to lead his crew down that death chute because he refused three times to do so…but in the end he did it anyway and they were all burned alive and died horrible deaths.

                      After I was relieved of my command on the Scott Fire, I was the only one being sent home at first. The Sector Boss then climbed onto the bus with the Line Boss and Fire Boss standing behind him and ordered my crew to get off the bus. The crew then threw spit cups, coke cans, sandwiches and anything else they could get their hands on at the Sector Boss while they cussed up a blue streak until he ran off the bus.

                      My crew always called me Dad, so RTS can go fuck himself and the horse he rode in on for being so insulting to me below by saying I identified with the warden from Cool Hand Luke.

                      So there. Nana nana poo poo to him. And FYI…I won his stupid bet because I referenced Dr. Putnam months before he did.

                      Fuck with the best…die with the rest.

                    • Gary Olson says

                      Oh…and one more thing. I didn’t even bother to go see my immediate supervisor, who was District FMO Orlando Romero because I knew he had my back. Orlando always had my back.

                    • Gary Olson says

                      P.S. Joy,

                      I am also being facetious about Finns and Finland. I’m just playin’ off a centuries old rivalry between Swedes and Finns hating or at least really disliking each other. Tribal divisions are strange. According to my History channel, all of us can be traced to one woman who was in Africa a really long time ago. So…can’t we all be friends? 🙂

                      And along those lines, I deeply regret fuckin’ with my old friend…the longest serving hotshot crew boss in history, who has certainly earned our respect for just that, and that alone.

                    • Robert the Second says

                      Gary,

                      You posted: “Those who lack competence, experience and common sense need to write them down and constantly review them, but unfortunately by doing so, they are standing to close to the elephant to see the elephant and therefore putting themselves and other at risk.”

                      Negative, it ensures that we will always remember them and follow them to the best of out ability.

                      Watch Outs are just that., more like Guidelines, and we experience them on every fire on every shift. You cannot violate the watch Outs. They are not Rules which can be violated.

                      You can and should always disobey orders if they are illegal, immoral, unethical, or unsafe..

                      Steed did not disobey any of Marsh’s orders three times to go down the hill. Steed ultimately followed through on Marsh’s commands, however, Steed numerous times used classic ‘Mitigating and Hinting Speech’ in deference to authority because he was a Marine and Marines follow orders.

                      Please provide me the link where you allegedly referenced Dr. Putnam”s ‘Up In Smoke’ article before I did. Thank you

                      The rest of your spew and childish diatribe above is not worth responding to.

                    • Joy A Collura says

                      Robert the Second says

                      JANUARY 16, 2018 AT 10:26 PM

                      Gary,

                      Even though we are and always will be Hot Shot Brothers, there are times you remind me of the odious Jabba the Hut

                      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CZy6G_vz_Ng

                      MY REPLY:
                      shit, first we are falling down my rabbit hole awaiting the NEW CHAPTER and the hole leads to Star Wars??? as me as Yoda and Gary as that—let me think which character RTS is?

                      hmmm….

                      going retro junk on me RTS—are ya…hard one…
                      so this is the throne room if Gary is this character you say….that means if going by the movie…everyone in this throne room are the vilest, most grotesque CREATURES ever conceived in the universe…oh crap…??? Don’t call Gary that…pick a new nickname please…

                      ok so you are gonna be either han d. solo…or obi one….is that how you saw obi? my brother was the sci fi guy not me…

                    • Joy A Collura says

                      a long time ago

                      in a galaxy far away

                      I like nicknames

                      but jabba was harsh…??? wasn’t it RTS?

                      plus Gary aren’t you thin? Jabba has an enormous girth like me one year ago 😉

                      Jabba who is the most sexually exploited character in the film—naked the entire time…

                      Jabba isn’t a hero, he’s clearly a good guy trying to do right for his community. So if we look at it this way then it is a good character for Gary—

                      plus Gary white women love Jabba—

                      last I heard Jabba ate only raw veggies

                      BUT
                      Gary couldnt be Jabba

                      There were three puppeteers, including Philpott, inside Jabba: a little person in the tail, one person working on arm and the head and another right next to him working the mouth, other arm and tongue.

                      AND THERE IS ONLY ONE GARY

                      Jabba’s two radio-controlled eyes included dilating pupils.

                      AND WE KNOW GARY’S EYES ARE NEVER DILATED 😉

                      all funnin’ aside or whatever this was
                      late night boredom

                      WHAT CHARACTER DO YOU LIKE THE MOST?

                      Me, it was Spock.
                      oh wrong movie,
                      it was Darth Vader.

                    • Joy A Collura says

                      THE LAST ONE POSTED WRONG

                      how???

                      hmmm

                      a long time ago

                      in a galaxy far away

                      I like nicknames

                      but jabba was harsh…??? wasn’t it RTS?

                      plus Gary aren’t you thin? Jabba has an enormous girth like me one year ago 😉

                      Jabba who is the most sexually exploited character in the film—naked the entire time…

                      Jabba isn’t a hero, he’s clearly a good guy trying to do right for his community. So if we look at it this way then it is a good character for Gary—

                      plus Gary white women love Jabba—

                      last I heard Jabba ate only raw veggies

                      BUT
                      Gary couldnt be Jabba

                      There were three puppeteers, including Philpott, inside Jabba: a little person in the tail, one person working on arm and the head and another right next to him working the mouth, other arm and tongue.

                      AND THERE IS ONLY ONE GARY

                      Jabba’s two radio-controlled eyes included dilating pupils.

                      AND WE KNOW GARY’S EYES ARE NEVER DILATED 😉

                      all funnin’ aside or whatever this was
                      late night boredom

                      WHAT CHARACTER DO YOU LIKE THE MOST?

                      Me, it was Spock.
                      oh wrong movie,
                      it was Darth Vader.

                    • Gary Olson says

                      Joy,

                      RTS made me too sad to respond to anything you said…because as usual you’re…complicated. Please keep me up to speed on Sonny’s condition on the back channel.

                      🙁

                    • Joy A Collura says

                      a long time ago

                      in a galaxy far away

                      where WHO is who getting picked on….

                      I like nicknames

                      but jabba was harsh…??? wasn’t it RTS?

                      plus Gary aren’t you thin? Jabba has an enormous girth like me one year ago 😉

                      Jabba who is the most sexually exploited character in the film—naked the entire time…

                      Jabba isn’t a hero, he’s clearly a good guy trying to do right for his community. So if we look at it this way then it is a good character for Gary—

                      plus Gary white women love Jabba—

                      last I heard Jabba ate only raw veggies

                      BUT
                      Gary couldnt be Jabba

                      There were three puppeteers, including Philpott, inside Jabba: a little person in the tail, one person working on arm and the head and another right next to him working the mouth, other arm and tongue.

                      AND THERE IS ONLY ONE GARY

                      Jabba’s two radio-controlled eyes included dilating pupils.

                      AND WE KNOW GARY’S EYES ARE NEVER DILATED 😉

                      all funnin’ aside or whatever this was
                      late night boredom

                      WHAT CHARACTER DO YOU LIKE THE MOST?

                      Me, it was Spock.
                      oh wrong movie,
                      it was Darth Vader.

                    • Gary Olson says

                      Joy,

                      Oh…and one more thing. I agree with you that RTS was very harsh with me. He knows how fragile and vulnerable I am and I have asked him numerous times to be sweeter to me.

                      Please refer him to my post down below next to his challenge for the link he is requesting. Thank you.

                      Although I think we all got some great news today about our President’s cognitive skills and I no longer think he is going to be throwing his poop at reporters during the State of the Union Speech.

                      God Bless America!

    • Gary Olson says

      Very cool. Thanks for the heads up. I am thinking about buying one just because I like watching a movie that shows just how great it is to be either a current or even former Hotshot…gotta love it, I guess? The movie does show how stupid we can be, not to mention arrogant (which often crosses the line into hubris) to boot, (which can be a deadly combination), but what the heck…any press is good press?

      Anyway…I am seriously considering revealing another one of our dirty little secrets because you know…that’s kinda my job as a blogger here. I started it years ago but backed down and showed my belly after pushback from RTS and Bob and because of the fact I didn’t want to find out some young dumb ass WF who read what I wrote done went and got themselves kilt!

      So I am thinking about writing the truth again and having one final epic on line battle with RTS and Bob who were trained on the Pollyanna Hotshots. And if someone does get kilt because of what I end up writing….please just don’t tell me about it.

      I thought I had actuallly found a video of the Pollyanna Hotshots training while memorizing the 10 and 18, but then some woman showed up in a pair of running shorts and interrupted them. Sadly…it turned out to be an old commercial for Apple computers, but I will keep looking.

      https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=2zfqw8nhUwA

      I also have to apologize to our President Trump…he isn’t INSANE, he just has some kind of deterioration of his mental abilities which are probably related to old age…bummer. If I am right, he is going to start throwing his poop at reporters while exposing himself and beating off life a horny monkey soon enough and then we will be able to stop arguing about what the hell is WRONG with this guy?

      I am definitely going to watch the State of the Unuin Speak this year. This just keeps getting better and better as every day goes by. This is certainly a good time to be a Christian, Conservative, White person with Nordic heritage who will get to keep my large tax cuts while most of my people lose their little ones pretty soon. God Bless America!

      • Robert the Second says

        Gary,

        Allow me to offer some one/two word ques for remembering the all-important Ten Standard FF Orders:

        1) WEATHER
        2) OBSERVE
        3) ACTIONS
        4) E/R + S.Z
        5) LOOKOUTS
        6) RE-EVALUATE
        7) COMMUNICATE
        8) INSTRUCTIONS
        9) CONTROL
        10) FIGHT FIRE

        We can work on the 19 Watch Outs at another time.

        Good YouTube video clip revealing directive-style leadership and likely what your Slanted Fake HS Crew experienced under your leadership.

        Thanks for sharing.

        • Gary Olson says

          RTS,

          I can’t figure out the “Slanted Fake” angle, please clarify.

          I think you are finally on the right track. And if you can get the 10 down to seven letters, I think you will really have something. I have perfected my own and I got my down to remembering only ONE thing. Unfortunately, my is a lot more than seven letters, but the letters it does use, make a catchy acronym that is easy to remember.

          “Don’t do stupid things.”.

          • Gary Olson says

            Although I guess I could reverse it and make it a positive “Rule Of One.”

            And I am going to drop the “hotshot” specific angle and just go with the “Wildland Firefighter Rule Of One.”

            “Do smart things”

            Nope…I don’t like that one. I’m sticking with, “Don’t Do Stupid Things.”

            • Gary Olson says

              Although for the dim witted WF, maybe I should go with, to cover all of the bases.

              “Don’t do stupid things, do smart things.”

              • Robert the Second says

                Gary, it’s mo re effective to speak positively and tell people what to do instead of what not to do. So I prefer the Do Smart Things.

                The Slanted Fake HS angle is payback for hour Polyanna HS angle.

                • Gary Olson says

                  I know it was payback…I just don’t get it. I know it is supposed to be insulting, I just don’t understand what the insult is?

                  XOXOXO

                  • Gary Olson says

                    Oh…and one more thing. You have never heard of the “Hotshot Rule of One”, because I made it up. I thought you knew that and we were on the same sheet of music…for once? But alas, our synchronicity as short lived.

                    • Robert the Second says

                      Okay, so if you made it up, then how am I or anyone else supposed to know what it means?

                      What is the “Hot Shot Rule of One?”

                    • Gary Olson says

                      Geez…either you are having a real problem with comprehension or I am having a real problem communicating? Although…at this point, it has to be me because I’m pretty sure you aren’t this fucking obtuse…right?

                      The whole angle I was going for, until you derailed me, was all of the 28 weren’t used or even needed by any of the 43 hotshots killed (other then by individual accidents and I am tired of putting that caveat in every time, so let’s just stipulate it from now on…okay?) because they only needed to do one thing and one thing only which has never been specified except in general, vague, all inclusive terms like, building fire line downhill towards a fire shouts, “watch out dumb ass” and that is the “Hotshot (or even Wildland Firefighter) Rule of One.”

                      And the “Rule of One” is,

                      Stay out of canyons above or in front of a wild fire”, and that is where our little train left the tracks with the exact langueage, because the exact language doesn’t really matter…the point is, stay out of canyons that are either above or in front of a wild fire.

                      And IF that simple rule would have been followed on the Loop, Battlement Creek, South Canyon and Yarnell Hill Fires, there would never have been a hotshot killed on a fire in the entire history of hotshots. The score would be:

                      Hotshots X Wildfires

                      Wildfires 0 Hotshots

                    • Robert the Second says

                      Okay thanks. I still don’t get how you came up with the “Rule of One” as a title or definition for this.

                      Definitely not obtuse …

                      And I come up with about 43 WF Rules, including the 10 & 18, LCES, Downhill Checklist, and the Common Denominators. And I actually have 19 Watch Outs to include Number 19, Death From Above.

                    • Gary Olson says

                      Your welcome! And I came up with the “Rule of One” because apparently hotshots only need one rule instead of 28 of them. Stay the fuck out of fuckiin’ canyons above or in front of a fuckin’ wildfire!”

                      And yes…I do think all of the vulgarity IS necessary…it helps hotshots FOCUS. I am starting to think Marsh and Sad Sack might have been on to something after all.

                      All of the old rules might be “hillbilly.” According to my exhaustive research and clinical studies of all of the hotshots deaths in history of hotshots, they only needed to follow the “Hotshot Rule of One” C. 2018, G. Olson, and that is,”Hey stupid fucks….stay out of canyons above or in front of a wildfire…okay?”

                      So…I think we need to train hotshots on sound wildfire firefighting tactics and strategies and the. “Hotshot Rule of One” and call it good.

                      I think all of the other WF still need all 28 plus LCES AND the, “Hotshot Rule of One” becuase all of the reasons so many other WF are killed is really hard to nail down and for me to wrap my head around because there are so many other variables.

                      But for hotshots…it turns out it is pretty FUCKIN” SIMPLE!

                    • Joy Collura says

                      Sounds like a kiss and makeup moment…glad to see that vs kiss ass…both have valid points.yet I would tell my kid also to be. mindful to.question authority if he is making me leave a safe area. Its like this you know its wrong …kinda like folks who cross to have affairs in life…sometimes you can do it ans make it but sometimes you can get burned so its better to not even think about sis is than to take that kind of risk. My way of thinking…

                  • Gary Olson says

                    Or how ever many WF rules you come up with. There were only 28 back in my day and frankly, I gave up after seven of them. And not seven rules…seven words! It was the same principle as remembering my telephone number.

                    Did I ever tell you how I made squad boss? No? I was the First Pulaski on Squad One and it was at the beginning of the year and we were cutting fire line for “time” with the crew boss using a stop watch, although now that I look back on it, we were starting in the middle of nowhere in the forest and cutting fire line to the middle of nowhere, so what was the stop watch for?

                    Anyway….I got excited and shattered the handle of my Pulaski and I felt stupid just standing there so I picked up the Pulaski head that still had about 18 inches of broken handle on it and kept cutting line.

                    The crew boss made me the new squad boss on the spot. He never even asked me how many of those stupid hillbilly rules I could recite like a robotic clone who learned them by rote.

                    He just made sure I knew about how to fight wildfire using sound tactics and strategies and the ability to make spit second decisions faster and better than Deep Blue instantly calculating an unimaginable number of variables and possible outcomes on the run which was helped because I have adult ADHD and my people were hunters and warriors going back eons just as yours were. We are all predators, you can tell because our eyes are in the front of our heads.

                    Here is something for you to think about IF you can open your mind to the possibility that your way might not be the best way.

                    No other industry that I know of that is inherently dangerous has a lists of rules that everybody has to learn by rote. They teach sound tactics and strategies instead.

                    They say, and don’t ask me how the they added these up except they do have a lot of people they need to keep busy at FLETC, but they say they teach every new cadet more than 1000 new individual things during basic training.

                    So…let’s take a LE vehicle stop because I don’t know any other inherently dangerous things other people do on a daily basis and make those into Written Rules. And this is off the top of my head and I’m not putting a lot of thought into them, so…I probably left some things off the list.

                    Action….Routine Vehicle Traffic Stop Rules (after observing a traffic violation)

                    1. Follow vehicle for a period of time to observe them.
                    2. Call in their license plate to dispatch for a 28/29, Wait for response.
                    3. Jot down the license plate and other facts like vehicle type and color etc.
                    4. Activate lights in a tactically favorable and safe area if possible. Observe reaction of vehicle occupants.
                    5. Stop patrol vehicle safe distance behind suspect vehicle. Turn wheels toward traffic. Continually observe suspect vehicle. Radio dispatch you are exiting patrol vehicle.
                    6. Walk to the shoulder of the road and approach vehicle on the passenger side with flashlight etc. in non gun hand.
                    7. Check trunk to make sure the it is fastened down, the back of a truck bed and the rear seat for hidden or previously unseen occupants..
                    8. Position yourself to the slightly to the rear while assuming a Field Interrogation/Modified Weaver combat stance.
                    9. Introduce yourself to the vehicle occupants and tell them the reason for the stop as you ask them for their drivers license, registration and insurance papers.
                    10. Etc…etc…etc, so on and so forth and when you are done, be sure and tell them to, “Have a Nice Day!”

                    Or maybe we should just teach our police officers to do those things and a whole bunch of other things automatically without thinking about them like watch traffic and everything else that is going on around them all at the same time without even thinking about it because we taught them sound police tactics and strategies at the police academy with constant reinforcement at in-service, on the job training and certification procedures with Field Training Officers.

                    In other words, maybe we should train and treat them and our wildland firefighters like they are highly trained adults instead of robotic, mindless clones who learned countless written rules because somebody in the USFS Chiefs Office thought that was a good idea as a knee jerk reaction in 1957 and we have been adding to the list ever since? Just askin’?

                    • Gary Olson says

                      Here is where my old work videos are posted on my YouTube channel I made because I was bored.

                      https://www.youtube.com/user/DeadEndPSA

                      Watch what this BLM Ranger does at the end of this video…do you think he is thinking about those 10 rules or any other rules? Or do you think he is following his training without even thinking about it?

                      His field tactics are FLAWLESS. I wasn’t in the vehicle,he was alone and the footage is from his dash camera.

                      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V4WvosIq7a0

                      This is how every hotshot should do everything…without THINKING about it. All actions should be automatic because of extensive and outstanding training with constant repetition.

                      As I have written before…wildland firefighter training is decades behind law enforcement training…and the field results show.

                    • Gary Olson says

                      Oh…and one more thing. The REASON wildland firefighter training is DECADES behind law enforcement training is because YOU PEOPLE (tax payers) put a lot of MONEY into law enforcement training and you don’t put hardly ANY MONEY into wildland firefighter training.

                      Almost ALL training materials are DECADES old and hopelessly outdated and frankly….most of it is a sad JOKE!

                      And to make matters even worse, wildland firefighting managers abdicated what little responsibility they did take for wildland firefighitnt training at one time and turned it over to either “for profit” or “non profit” ad hoc outfits. Some of which are okay and others aren’t okay.

                      And in any case, they are all using materials and teaching techniques that were developed several decades ago and haven’t been updated since.

                      I paid almost one thousand dollars for Eric Marsh and Company to train my son with the very same training the USFS gave me back in the mid 1970’s for God’s Sake!

                      Do you really want to know what the problem is? CAN YOU HANDLE THE TRUTH?

                      You fucking (FOCUS) people are the fucking problem! FIX IT!

                    • Robert the Second says

                      In other words, maybe we should train and treat them and our wildland firefighters like they are highly trained adults using the limited (43 WF Rules) written rules because the USFS Chief’s Office thought that was a good idea in 1957. We have added to the list only a few times.

                      They work, every single time!

                      Memorize them, understand what they mean, mitigate the Watch Outs as you encounter them, and safely fight fire.

                      Pretty simple.

                    • Gary Olson says

                      You are standing too close to the elephant to even see what the problem is. In other words, you are the problem…so you can’t be the solution.

                      If I were doing a PowerPoint presentation I would make a Venn Diagram for you and then you might be able to see the problem. Or…you could just take a few steps back and realize you what you are looking is an elephant.

                      Nahhhh….fuhgettaboutit, you have been hopelessly institutionalized my old friend.

                    • Robert the Second says

                      Gary,

                      I can clearly see what is going on and definitely have the Big Picture. and definitely NOT hopelessly institutionalized.

                      I have been and continue to be confidently and thankfully blessed by The Good Lord by following the WF Rules that work, every single time!

                      Memorize them, understand what they mean, mitigate the Watch Outs as you encounter them, and safely fight fire.

                      It’s really very simple and very effective.

                      Name or show me ONE fire where the WF Rules were followed and someone was burned over, Fire sheltered up, or died from a wildfire.

                      There are NONE!

                    • Woodsman says

                      Too many rules have been written, and following tragedy, added TO, that not only has made it more difficult to keep them all straight, an argument can be made that all they do is effectively help protect management from liability. At a certain point there are so many rules it’s becomes harder & harder not to ever ‘bend’ one….even just a little.

                      Did LCES, while formulated by Mr. Gleason so many years ago to exactly address the issue of too many rules to keep straight, contribute to the death of the GMIHC? They employed a lookout (check the box) …and almost killed him. Instead of staying in a safety zone they travelled what the bossman perceived as the best escape route to their PRE-DETERMINED ‘bomb-proof’ safety zone. In their minds were they following the rules that day of LCES? Probably. But they failed the most basic rule: Don’t Do Stupid Shit.

                      In order to grasp what Gary is saying it will take a very flexible open mind IMHO.

                    • Woodsman says

                      And…since we know GMIHCs decisions were not made in a vaccum that day or any other day, we can seek out both the internal & external factors that led to the outcome. Robots who can memorize safety rules isn’t good enough. Freethinkers who are not afraid to stand up to management & follow the most basic rule of all, is what’s required.

                    • Robert the Second says

                      Woodman,

                      I disagree that too many rules have been written, and following tragedy, added TO, that not only has made it more difficult to keep them all straight,

                      There were NO rules added TO for quite some time now. And LCES was basically a mere simplification of the Fire Orders.

                      I also disagree that the WF Rules are designed to protect management. On the contrary, these are designed to protect the WF.

                      You posted that the GMHS “… travelled what the bossman perceived as the best escape route to their PRE-DETERMINED ‘bomb-proof’ safety zone.”

                      I have always had several problems with this one. First, they were IN a perfectly good Safety Zone. Second, you utilize an Escape Route to get FROM danger TO safety, so the GMHS totally perverted the meaning and spirit of the viable and specific term Escape Route.

                      Third, abandoning their perfectly good SZ and traveling to the predetermined BSR Safety Zone was the gist of the ‘discussing our options’ argument between Steed and Marsh.

                      Fourth, the “.Robots who can memorize safety rules isn’t good enough. Freethinkers who are not afraid to stand up to management & follow the most basic rule of all, is what’s required.”

                      I’m in total agreement here and this is the.basis of the Participatory leadership style. Unfortunately, Marsh succeeded in threatening his Crew with his authoritarian directive leadership style and they the entire GMHS buckled and went to their deaths.

                      In other words, the GMHS were doing just what you posted, acting like robots, and not thinking about what they were doing and the eventual likely outcome.

                      Gary, the Cool Hand Luke video clip fits you perfectly. You clearly identify with the prison warden …

                    • Robert the Second says

                      Gary, here’s a couple in depth analyses of the whole Cool Hand Luke and authoritarian prison warden and his “What we have here is a failure to communicate”

                      I know that you identify with the prison warden, so they may be too in depth for you though, so heads up …, do your best if you can handle it

                      The Laws of God, The Laws of Man: Power, Authority, and Influence in ‘‘Cool Hand Luke’’ Univ of Puget Sound

                      https://www.pugetsound.edu/faculty-pages/haltom/cool-hand-luke/

                      Film as Art and Psychology: Cool Hand Like as Exemplar by Frank Barron

                      https://www.northernhighlands.org/cms/lib5/NJ01000179/Centricity/Domain/115/CHL%20Art%20Psychology.pdf

                    • Woodsman says

                      RTS,

                      Well, the current situation is clearly not working very well. Why? Iverson had a lookout, right? He was told ‘we’ve got eyes on you.’ So the communication check-box is good….Nome sayin?

                      Let me ask you something. In your words. What is the most important rule of wildland firefighting? And you can’t answer that it’s to follow all of the rules all of the time, that doesn’t cut it. If you had a crew of 18-23 year olds to take care of on a fire crew & you know they would only remember one thing under any kind a stress possible, what would you want that to be?

                      You must understand that I’ve been screwed by management in the past so I’m predisposed to distrust in that area. I don’t believe that rules should be thrown out or they are not valuable, I just want it all boiled down to one simple concept that anyone from a seasoned firefighter to a rookie can easily understand and abide by not matter the situation and stress involved.

                      Thanks

                    • Robert the Second says

                      Woodsman,

                      Iverson’s CDF “Lookout(s)” – in my professional opinion, contributed to his demise and added to his inexplicable continued travel downslope, chasing spots,in the unburned, etc, etc, etc …by likely encouraging him to keep going. All they ever told him was they “have eyes” on him and never warned him about anything so just keep on going deeper into the s**t! The underlying message the Lookout(s) gave him was keep going.

                      What is the most important rule of wildland firefighting?

                      Tough one because the WF Rules work so well when you use them properly.

                      Probably take care of yourself and those you supervise and are responsible for by safely applying good sense and tactics.

                      Welcome to The Club My Friend. I’ve been screwed by management in the past so many times that I too am predisposed to distrust them. That’s why i depend on doing the difficult right thing to the best of my ability

                      I too believe that good, solid, viable rules should be maintained when valuable – as all the WF Rules are!

                      This is about as boiled down to one simple concept that anyone from a seasoned firefighter to a rookie can easily understand and abide by not matter the situation and stress involved, as I can get.

                    • Gary Olson says

                      Dear Captain Obvious,

                      What we have here is a failure to communicate is just a Pop Culture reference to the difference between you and me.

                      That and the fact that can admit I am a Dickhead whereas you fancy yourself as a sanctimonious Richard Cranium, which you are… congratulations Dickhead.

                      The Woodsman summed up what I was trying to say very nicely just as Dr. Ted Putnam does here,

                      http://www.investigativemedia.com/wp-content/uploads/…/fire_safety_up_in_smoke.pdf

                      You on the other hand, delight in being obtuse in your mistaken belief that denial is just a river in Egypt rather than a summation of your slavish devotion to the obvious.

                      And whether it is working in a meat packing plant, a mine, law enforcement, a construction site or a convenience store, if you make a rule for everything that can possibly go wrong or ever has gone wrong that has lead to a fatality or a serious injury doesn’t make you an expert on workplace safety, it makes you Captain Obvious.

                      It’s just that I choose to acknowledge that fact by summing up all of those, “rules and guidelines” by stating the obvious…”Don’t do stupid things.” And even more specifically for hotshots, “Stay out of canyons in front of or above a wildfire.”

                      Although violating that rule isn’t what killed any of those 43 hotshots, what killed all of those hotshots is the very same thing that is going to kill the next 43 hotshots at some point and that is…”Hotshot Crew Boss Hubris.”

                      That is after, what killed the Granite Mountain Hotshots on the Yarnell Hill Fire…Eric Marsh’s hubris and Darrell Willis’ and many others criminal negligence culpability, conspiracy and COLLUSION in putting that career fuck up in charge of a hotshot crew.

                      Nothing would have saved the GMIHC from themselves on the Yarnell Hill Fire. Captain Jesse Steed tried three (3) times but he was overruled three (3) times by Division Alpha Marsh.

                      And once again, I was using hyperbole to make a point, I did more than learn seven letters of the rules, I learned the only one anyone needs in addition to knowing and correctly applying professional standards of wildland firefighting techniques, tactics and strategies and that is…”Fight fire aggressively but provide for safety first.”

                      Although my second favorite has always been, “You feel like taking a nap near the fire line…Duhhhhhhh.” I am however thinking about adding one more…”Don’t roast wieners or marshmallows in your backfire unless you have really long sticks” just for you…Captain Obvious.

                    • Robert the Second says

                      Woodsman,

                      Another one might be:

                      Do your inherently dangerous job of wildland firefighting safely and to the best of your ability.

                    • Gary Olson says

                      Well…that link doesn’t seem to work so just type, Dr. Ted Putnam and some other identifiers like U.S. Forest Service into any search engine and “Up In Smoke” and all of his other white papers and related articles show up.

                    • Robert the Second says

                      Gary, I get it, i really do. I was the one that posted Dr. Putnam’s ‘Up In Smoke’ paper. I talk with him on a regular basis about this stuff.

                      I too admit to being Richard Crranium, however, I feel that it’s you that fancies yourself as a sanctimonious Dickhead, so congratulations Dickhead.

                      It’s okay to disagree and have a different point of view

                    • Woodsman says

                      RTS,

                      Yes, we both know the effect Iverson most likely felt from being assured that ‘we have eyes on you.’ But how many out there believe if they just check the box they’ll be fine. Lookout: check. Communications: check. Escape route: just run back the way you came: check. Safety zone: this 20’x30′ clearing looks good enough: check.

                      You know it, I know it but how many new young folks know it? That’s the problem. What’s obvious to us is not across the board to others. It’s a failure of training & breaking it down into what will provide results under stress each time, every time across the wf community.

                      Thanks for not taking the easy way out in answering the question. It is a lot to think about, isn’t it?

                    • Gary Olson says

                      Oh and one more thing.

                      I hate to sink to your level Captain, but if anyone wants to put the research into it, I am sure they will find that I was the first one to post any of Dr, Putnam papers here including “Up In Smoke.”

                      And as you know, I have frequently talked to Ted several times over the past few years while we worked together on an analysis of the “ Battlement Creek Fire”.

                      So…nana nana poo poo to you.

                    • Robert the Second says

                      Woodsman,

                      How about this compound sentence:

                      Perform your inherently dangerous wildland firefighting tasks to the best of your ability, monitoring the weather, after observing the fire, to make your best estimates of current and expected fire behavior, while posting lookouts and providing escape routes and safety zones, after re-evaluating those choices, while clearly communicating these intentions, controlling your forces, while aggressively and safely fighting fire..

                    • Woodsman says

                      Now you’re just being silly. Still needs a lot more boiling down. You’re going the wrong way, man! You should stop worrying about leaving something out (institutionalized knowledge) but instead be certain to include what’s most important…… & the key is that it has to be reliable under stress for all wf.

                    • Robert the Second says

                      Gary,

                      How about you putting the research into it since you are so sure you will find that you were the first one to post any of Dr, Putnam papers here including “Up In Smoke..”

                      Gentleman’s bet. I say I posted it before you.

                      “So…nana nana poo poo to you.”

                      REALLY?! That’s the best you can do? A man that supposedly was a Federal LE Officer that carried a gun and arrested people?

                      Pretty friggin’ immature and childish and then some …

                    • Robert the Second says

                      Woodsman,

                      You MUST include basic things like weather and communication and more. There is no other way

                    • Gary Olson says

                      Oh…and you’re on. I just don’t trust you to do the research, so WTKTT would have to do it. And I don’t know if he has as much time to waste on you as I do?

                    • Gary Olson says

                      I misspoke. Hotshot hubris killed the last 34 Hotshots. IC incompetence killed the 9 Hotshots on the South Canyon Fire.

      • Gary Olson says

        There are so many great adjectives to describe how wonderful it is to be me in this day and age of Trump White Nationalist Bigotry I forgot some important ones such as Straight, Male and really sweet…covered by Federal Blue Cross/Blue Shield insurance plan my former employer stills pays three quarters of the cost of.

        So I don’t even really notice health insurance cost increases. Now, most of you either couldn’t or didn’t want to do what I did to earn my retirement package because we all started at the same place, more or less and you choose other paths.

        But still….it’s pretty sweet and when the rest of my people get kicked out of the state exchanges and lose their government safety net, it will just be too bad for THEM PEOPLE because elections have consequences and THOSE PEOPLE chose …poorly (Indiana Jones – Templar Knight quote).

        I don’t even have to tell anyone I have an affinity for Mormons so people like that bigot Reverend Franklin Gramhan and most of the Fundalmentalist Charissmatic Christian Leaders won’t discriminate against me because the obvious racial terms to describe my people originally where “Sqaureheads” and thought we were extra dumb. But compared to most, I mean really….how hurtful are those things anyway? And we have even lived those down, I mean…I don’t even remember the last time somebody called me a Squarehead to hurt my feelings.

        And besides that, my President and I even come from the same gene poool originally, I mean Scandinavia people where extra restless immigrants from Northern Germanic Tribes, so…we’re good! Most of the rest of you people…are fucked!

        • Gary Olson says

          But still…my years with my beloved U.S. Forest Service (FIIRE) where dominated by those who were non white people. They were Hispanics and Native Americans and they treated me as one of their own.

          So…I got to stand up for them when that stupid man who is masquerading as the President of the United States spews his racist, bigoted, disgusting rants.

          And I can appreciate recent immigrants because they pick the fruits and vegetables I eat, clean the hotel rooms I stay in, do my yard work (I hate to mow a lawn, can’t stand the two cycle exhaust anymore or particulates in my throat) and build most of the houses I have lived in and have cooked the food I have eaten out and cleaned my dirty dishes because Americans just don’t want to do that kind of work…including me and my kids.

      • Gary Olson says

        Yep…things are really looking up for my people. I think this chain migration thing could really work out for the Nordic people. I would like to sponsor some family members, but I can’t find any who want to move here.

        I mean…like, Denmark is the happiest country in the world, nobody from Sweden wants to move here IKEA, Saab, and Husquvarna have full employment and they ask some people on the street in Norway if they wanted to come here, they just laughed and walked away. WTF…OVER?

        I am going to put some feelers out in Iceland, but don’t get your hopes up. Maybe we can get some vitamin D deficient people from Greenland….nobody in their right mind wants to live there…am I right?

        Historically….I think realistically we only have one real shot at getting some Nordic types to move here. We are going to have to look to Finland. But…I don’t think even the Finns (and we know how THOSE PEOPLE are) are going to come here and pick fruit or harvest vegetables, clean our motel rooms, wash our dishes in restaurants,or clean our office buildings, or cut my damn grass! Maybe they will work in our coal mines….but we don’t have any openings there.

        I wonder if we can get some of those forgotten, poorly educated, low paid blue collar hillbilly redneck crackers from those Red states who voted that reality TV actor to deconstruct the damn country to come do my damn yard work? Fuck me! What am I going to do now, this ain’t funny no more?

  20. Robert the Second says

    Thomas Fire Fatality on December 14, 2017

    CDF Green Sheet

    The Wildland Fire lessons Learned Center LLC would not post, so just go to the LLC website for it

    17-CA-VNC-103156 California Southern Region

    SUMMARY

    On December 13, 2017, a CAL FIRE Engine Strike Team (STEN1), with a leader
    (STL1) from the San Diego Unit (MVU) was assigned to Branch III, Division X of the
    Thomas Fire above the community of Fillmore in Ventura County, California. On the
    morning of December 14, 2017, a Fire Apparatus Engineer (FAE1)and four Fire Fighter I’s (FF1, FF2, FF3 and FF4) from STEN1 were engaged in the placement of a hoselay in support of a dozer line with fire established above the line. At approximately 9:27 AM, while attempting to suppress spot fires below he dozer line, FAE1became entrapped and suffered fatal injuries. The four firefighters on the dozer line retreated up their escape route without injury.

    INCIDENTAL ISSUES/LESSONS LEARNED

    Steep terrain, hazardous weather (erratic winds,record low RH, red flag warnings) and heavy fuel loading made access difficult and fire behavior extreme. The Fuels and Fire Behavior Advisory
    for the Southern California Geographic Area Coordination Center, dated December 15, 2017, states
    “Fire behavior that has been observed on the Thomas Fire as well as some of the other recent fires,
    has been extreme. Fires are actively backing downhill and into the wind, in both the fine dead fuels, as well as the heavier chaparral. The 100-hour dead fuel moisture is normally in the mid-teens, but values of around 2% have been commonly observed. Fires have exhibited extremely high resistance to control, and retardant in many cases has been proven to be ineffective. (This is a testament to the
    terrain, fuels and fire conditions FAE1 faced, on the morning of December 14, 2017.)

    A regular review of the Foundations of Safety for Wildland Firefighting is warranted. The Standard Orders and Watch Out Situations were developed in 1957 after fires cost firefighter lives. The Common Denominators were published in 1978after careful analysis of previous fatal fires.

    One spot along the dozer line was safe enough to pick up. When there were spot fire(s) that
    prevented safe travel back to the dozer line, a re-evaluation should have taken place.A change in he current or expected fire behavior,that changes tactics, requires a tactical pause and re-evaluation of he situation.“Is the plan still good,with viable identified escape routes?”

    “And what is the risk versus gain?” Provide for Safety First,so we can “Fight Fire Aggressively”.

    • Robert the Second says

      Please GTS the WF LLC and Incident Reviews of even the Thomas Fire Green Sheet.

      Classic Sundowner / Santa Ana winds, aggressive downslope / downhill fire behavior, increased spotting, decreasing and local winds prevailed, high nighttime temperatures followed by warms days, very low RH values, high Energy Release Component (ERC) values, decadent and thick chaparral, the WF running into the unburned fuel into a drainage, and died. He did not attempt to use his fire shelter.

      The color photos included in the report are fairly revealing.

      • Bob Powers says

        Classic Rattle Snake Fire 1953 similar sun downer winds. Ran down hill overtaken by the fire. We have trained and trained on these fires in northern Ca.. Yet here we are again. 4 went to the black I guess he headed for the orchard?

        • Gary Olson says

          And I guess this was the worst I have been expecting. And since I don’t have any deep appreciation or understanding for how complex the world of wildland firefighting has become, I probably should keep my opinion to myself, but then I would be betraying my values as a blogger on this thread, so I am going to give it anyway.

          And here it is, “WTF…Over?”

          I am just not used to having only one firefighter dead, I think there either should have been more dead, which would have made this tragedy all that much worse multiplied by the number of additional fatalities, or none at all which would have made this a close call instead of a catastrophe.

          The only time I know of a single WF being killed (as I wrote downstream) was on the Buchanan Fire that had been the Buchanan Prescribed Burn before it went to hell in a hand basket and on the Ship Island Creek Fire.

          On the Buchanan Fire, a single WF from a Type II crew left her crew without telling anyone where she was going (which was probably to relieve herself) and therefore was alone when the fire blew up and out.

          On the Ship Island Creek Fire, there were actually two overhead together in a saddle on a ridge when the fire blew up and out and they were burned over in fire shelters so the man who died wasn’t even alone. I have some photos of the ridge and saddle I will post later for those who may be interested in seeing what the fatality area looked like.

          So…here is what I would be looking for in an investigation. Why was this man alone and where did his training (and that of the other four WF) fail him? In other words, I don’t believe this incident wasn’t an accident, I think it was probably a screw up.

          • Gary Olson says

            Oh…and one more thing. As I have written before, I think wildland firefighters are like grapes, they should come in bunches…in life and death or serious injury. No wildland firefighter should ever find themselves alone on a wildfire.

            • Gary Olson says

              Whoops,

              “I don’t believe this incident WAS an accident, I think it was probably a screw up.”

              I usually do proof read my posts, I just miss a lot of mistakes.

              • Rocksteady says

                Red flag warming. Fuelscand fire advisory but no heightened sense of awareness, tried to action spot fire by himself?

                WTF ?

                over
                ??

                • Robert the Second says

                  I agree completely.

                  WTF!?

                  Classic Sundowner / Santa Ana winds, aggressive downslope / downhill fire behavior, increased spotting, decreasing and local winds prevailed with decreasing Sundowners, high nighttime temperatures followed by warms days, very low RH values, high Energy Release Component (ERC) values, very early morning aggressive fire behavior decadent and thick chaparral, the WF running into the unburned fuel into a drainage, chasing multiple spot fires alone, and died. He did not attempt to use his fire shelter.

                  Classic CDF. Fight fire and ignore all the cues, W/O’s, indicators, warnings, and everything else, until you get burned over.

                  • Robert the Second says

                    Here is a link for the classic Carl C. Wilson research paper titled: “Fatal and Near-Fatal Forest Fires – The Common Denominators” (1977).

                    http://wildfiretoday.com/documents/CommonDenominatorsCarlWilson_1977.pdf

                    Please note the Southern CA fires in Table 1, right off the bat has the 1971 Romero Fire on the Los Padres NF and strong Sundowner winds pushing the fire downslope.

                    Note also the fires where the Santa Ana winds either strengthened or weakened and the local winds prevailed – just like on the 2017 Thomas Fire

          • Robert the Second says

            Gary,

            The Buchanan RX Burn went awry due to aerial ignition into the Ponderosa Pine timber pockets below the WF resulting in what I refer to as aerial induced fire behavior because it cannot be replicated by hand. The intensity of the intense run was so strong that it burned the boots off the WF’s feet.

            On the Ship Island Fire, a DIVS and a Safety Officer stayed on the helispot and considered it a Safety Zone even after piling all the gear and equipment on the helispot into the center. These stacked items included flammables, nylons, etc.

            Supposedly, they had told all the Crews to leave the area and seek safety elsewhere while they stayed and ultimately deployed fire shelters on the helispot-considered-Safety-Zone.

            Obviously, the flammables burned very intensely and one of the Overhead had no gloves or wore no gloves and was unable to move around and away from the additional heat sources and ultimately burned to death. The other Overhead had and wore his gloves and safely accomplished the heat avoidance.

            We worked for this fella on a fire years later and he was still pretty gun-shy and messed up from the incident.

            You were there and I wasn’t so you experienced it first hand …

            I look forward to seeing your photos

    • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

      Reply to Robert the Second ( RTS ) post on January 8, 2018 at 4:54 pm

      >> RTS said…
      >>
      >> Thomas Fire Fatality on December 14, 2017
      >> CDF Green Sheet
      >> The Wildland Fire lessons Learned Center LLC would not post,
      >> so just go to the LLC website for it
      >>
      >> 17-CA-VNC-103156 California Southern Region

      Thank you.

      Here is a link to the page for the Thomas Fire Entrapment FATALITY that contains this latest report along with all the other related documents that have been published ( so far )…

      Wildland Fire Lessons Learned Center
      A lesson is learned when we CHANGE OUR BEHAVIOR
      Thomas Fire Entrapment Fatality( 2017 )
      Incident Date: 12/14/2017

      https://www.wildfirelessons.net/orphans/viewincident?DocumentKey=eae947bb-4440-472b-9e38-cd825563e0a5

      And here is a direct link to the newly published ‘Green Sheet’ document…

      https://www.wildfirelessons.net/HigherLogic/System/DownloadDocumentFile.ashx?DocumentFileKey=8d7098f8-eafc-90bc-7d79-fd70cdf246fa&forceDialog=0

      >> RTS also said…
      >>
      >> The color photos included in the report are fairly revealing.

      Yes. They are.

      According to the photos… the actual location where Cory Iverson died is…

      Decimal Latitude: 34.436277
      Decimal Longitude: -118.957608

      If you ‘cut and paste’ the following line ( including the comma ) into the Search Bar of either Google Earth or Google Maps… you will get a ‘red balloon’ right on the spot where his body was found ( at the bottom of that ‘gulch’ )…

      34.436277, -118.957608

      The report DOES mention what has already been reported about Cory Iverson having been in the 25th hour of a 24 hour long work shift when he died.

      He and his engine crew had been working 24-hour-on / 24-hours-off shifts on the Thomas Fire since December 5, 2017… until his death 9 days later on December 14.

      On the morning he died… Iverson had already completed another 24-hour shift but was then asked to ‘stay on the line’ to do a hoselay for a dozer line.

      What’s really painful to read in this report is how LONG it took from the moment Iverson knew he was in deep trouble to when he actually died… how CLOSE he was to safety that whole time… and that many people were just WATCHING him desperately try to make it to safety.

      From the report’s own ‘timeline’…

      9:10 AM – Iverson leaves the dozer line he was standing on ( alone ) with only his ‘scrapiing tool’ to attack a spot fire that was ( supposedly ) just a mere 20 feet off the dozer line.

      9:15 AM – The spot fire erupts and Iverson is cut off from the dozer line. He heads southwest, parallel to dozer line and through the green trying to get to safety.

      9:20 AM – Iverson himself calls for ‘Air Support’ on the TAC channel.

      9:25 AM – FC1 is now telling Iverson ( on the TAC channel ) to “Get out of there”.

      9:27 AM – FC1 declares a MAYDAY on the TAC channel… “MAYDAY – Firefighter DOWN”.

      9:27 AM – FC1 immediately clarfies his MAYDAY with… “MAYDAY – Firefighter TRAPPED”.

      9:28 AM – Three helicopters ( Copter 1 and 2 CWN choppers ) all report actually seeing Iverson still retreating dowslope through the green trying to make it to safety.

      9:30 AM – FC1 can also see Iverson this whole time, and now reports seeing him FALL and then loses sight of him. Copter 1 also sees Iverson FALL… but also reports then seeing Iverson get back up and continue running downslope. This was the last known ‘visual sighting’ of Iverson.

      9:40 AM – The approximate time of death for Cory Iverson at the bottom of a gulch.

      So from 9:15 AM through ( approximately ) 9:40 AM ( a full 25 minutes ) Cory Iverson was ‘trapped’ and ‘on the run’ through the green and just trying to make it to safety.

      And for most of that time ( at least 15 minutes ) he could be SEEN by other firefighters and helicopter pilots desperately running through the green and trying to make it to safety.

      He died of burns and smoke inhalation… and made no attempt to deploy his fire shelter.

      • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

        Followup…

        Here is where it was originally reported ( by a CALFIRE Fire Chief ) that Cory Iverson had already completed a full 24 hour work shift before he was asked to stay on the line and keep working the morning he died…

        KPCC 89.3 RADIO – SOUTHERN CALIFORNIA
        Article Title: Friends, family celebrate the life of firefighter Cory Iverson
        Published: December 23, 2017 – By Brianna Flores
        https://www.scpr.org/news/2017/12/23/79239/cory-iverson-funeral-celebrate-thomas-fire-friends/

        From the article…
        ——————————————————————————————-
        Family, friends and colleagues gathered Saturday morning to celebrate the life of San Diego Cal Fire engineer Cory Iverson.

        The 32-year-old firefighter died in the line of duty on Thursday, December 14 while battling the Thomas Fire.

        San Diego Cal Fire Chief Tony Mecham said Iverson and his strike team were finishing up a 24-hour shift and were scheduled to be taken off the fire line. But the team was asked to continue working when the fire began to threaten the city of Fillmore.</b?

        An autopsy found Iverson died from burns and smoke inhalation. Officials previously said he died after some sort of accident but they have not released additional details. A serious accident investigation team is looking into Iverson's death.
        —————————————————————————————–

      • Robert the Second says

        And how about one or more of his fellow WF telling him repeatedly that he “had eyes on him.”

        What good did that do, except maybe encourage him to keep going.

        He supposedly spent several years on a reputable Southern CA HS Crew, so that even makes the whole incident even more mind boggling. WTF?

    • Gary Olson says

      And I guess this was the worst I have been expecting. And since I don’t have any deep appreciation or understanding for how complex the world of wildland firefighting has become, I probably should keep my opinion to myself, but then I would be betraying my values as a blogger on this thread, so I am going to give it anyway.

      And here it is, “WTF…Over?”

      I am just not used to having only one firefighter dead, I think there either should have been more dead, which would have made this tragedy all that much worse multiplied by the number of additional fatalities, or none at all which would have made this a close call instead of a catastrophe.

      The only time I know of a single WF being killed (as I wrote downstream) was on the Buchanan Fire that had been the Buchanan Prescribed Burn before it went to hell in a hand basket and on the Ship Island Creek Fire.

      On the Buchanan Fire, a single WF from a Type II crew left her crew without telling anyone where she was going (which was probably to relieve herself) and therefore was alone when the fire blew up and out.

      On the Ship Island Creek Fire, there were actually two overhead together in a saddle on a ridge when the fire blew up and out and they were burned over in fire shelters so the man who died wasn’t even alone. I have some photos of the ridge and saddle I will post later for those who may be interested in seeing what the fatality area looked like.

      So…here is what I would be looking for in an investigation. Why was this man alone and where did his training (and that of the other four WF) fail him? In other words, I don’t believe this incident wasn’t an accident, I think it was probably a screw up.

      • Gary Olson says

        Great, my copy and paste didn’t work this time so now I have to retype my entire response.

        Yeah…well, I think both you and Aloysious are dead wrong. In this day and age with the widespread availability and low cost of GPS tracking devices. every wildland firefighter should be wearing one on large complex fire.

        When the Special Forces soldier was killed in Africa, it still took two days to find his body a significant distance from where they apparently thought it should have been and it sounded to me like the bad guys found him first, which would have been as bad as it sounds and he was wearing a body tracking device.

        The only people who would think it is a bad idea for WF to wear GPS tracking devices in this century are either Luddites or shirkers. just sayin….

        Gee…what if the some of the Granite Mountain Hotshots would have just been seriously injured as one hotshot who lived on the Battlement Creek Fire was? Don’t you think it would have been a good idea to be able to find them sooner rather than later which would have been serendipitous rather than just plain dumb luck for what very well could have been life saving measures to be taken?

        • Gary Olson says

          Oh…and one more thing. As we have discussed on this thread many times, most if not all large complex wildfires are potentially dangerous and always dynamic events for at least the first 36 to 48 hours and sometimes for the entire duration the wildfire is out of control. They are always kinda serious and potentially deadly versions of Abbott & Costello”s, “Who’s On First” comedy routine.

          https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kTcRRaXV-fg

          I think having GPS tracking devices on wildland firefighters, especially those who are the tip of the spear (to borrow a military term) is as much of a no-brainier as having a standardized emergency call, which is just INSANE things haven’t progressed in that area since back in the day.

          I was after all, with a hotshot crew who was inserted by helicopter into a remote sector of a large BLM desert wildfire and then forgotten about for a couple of days until a returning supply helicopter flew over the ridge were we on and landed to ask us who we were? I didn’t know they had lost us until that happened, but I was glad they found us when they did…accidentally.

          I will post some photos of that area as well for anyone who doesn’t know what a large complex wildfire usually looks like in the Sonoran and Mohave Deserts (this particular fire was in the Mohave Desert). When I post those photos, ask yourself the following question, “If I were lost out there for a couple of days or maybe even longer in high daytime temperatures without any water, would I like to be wearing a GPS tracking device…or not?”

          I can also think of a lot of really good reasons, strategic planning options and logistical benefits to having GPS locators on some if not all resources on a campaign fire in addition to the obvious tactical and safety reasons.

          The only people I may not put them on would be Type II crews, but I would have them on their Crew Liaison Officers and crew bosses at a minimum. And I am certainly including all overhead, engines and their crews in the “minimum mandatory” mix.

  21. Charlie says

    Gary, since these writers think I’m the town drunk maybe they would send me some money to buy more booze with.

    I only have had 3 Guinness Stout in the last couple weeks.

    One today that I didn’t quite finish cuz I was having this pain.

    So I bought two six packs and I might spread them out for the month and then again I might drink the bastards all at once just for the hell of it.

    It’s great to be a f****** drunk and be written up that way in the books motherfuckers want to say.

    Yeah if they can ruin your reputation well enough then your words don’t mean s***. and in Joy’s case they tried a lot of s*** but it ain’t working worth a tinker’s damn.

    The sad part of this is that Joy and I witnessed the situation of that day.

    Once that fire exploded at about 11:30 there was absolutely no reason to have men on the line.

    It was a situation once that fire hit that dry Manzanita that we were watching 50 to 100 foot flames and even longer flames laying down nearly parallel to the ground as that fire moved toward Peeples Valley and by 12:30