Please Begin Yarnell Hill Fire Chapter XXVI Here

Share

Chapter I, Chapter II, Chapter II supplement, Chapter III, Chapter IV, Chapter V, Chapter VI, Chapter VII, Chapter VIII , Chapter IX,  Chapter X, Chapter XI, Chapter XII , Chapter XIII, Chapter XIV,  Chapter XV,  Chapter XVI, Chapter XVII, Chapter XVIII, Chapter XIX, Chapter XX, Chapter XXI, Chapter XXII, Chapter XXIII, Chapter XXIV and Chapter XXV.

© Copyright 2018 John Dougherty, All rights Reserved. Written For: Investigative MEDIA

Comments

  1. Joy A. Collura says

    As I am going through Arizona Republic Reporter’s Tom Story’s files and notes they being Arizona State Forestry – they had a Word Doc in his file and in it – it states something you will find very interesting

    I know people think I do not take the time to fully answer you as I normally would on some areas since you ask it but I do run questions through a few folks to see where to keep the focus because I rather stay focused to getting more data out so instead of blogging this I will post it here:

    RIGHT FROM THE FILE and make your own assessments -k:

    ‎Thursday, ‎July ‎25, ‎2013, ‏‎3:51:26 PM FILE-

    Needing ac power to recharge my laptop. I went back the ICP in Peeples Valley.
    Downloaded my stuff, captioned and transmitted. All the time I was listening to the radio about how DPS was bringing the survivors out and was going to land down near the intersection of Hays Ranch Road and Highway 89 where I had seen them setting up. I almost, almost , went down there. But decided to play dumb and stay put. The other media didn’t know about it. The folks were making arrangements to shield the survivors and I just didn’t want any part of it. My killer instinct has mellowed somewhat with age.

    I left the fire, drove home via Prescott.”

    • Joy A. Collura says

      In same file was this:

      CREATED Saturday, ‎September ‎08, ‎2018, ‏‎5:50:38 PM
      MODIFIED Tuesday, ‎September ‎24, ‎2013, ‏‎5:39:43 PM

      _README file

      content::

      Tom Story is a freelance photographer who works for AP and AZ Republic. He’s also been under NIFC contract He was freelancing June 30. He sent the photos to AP minutes after he took them on June 30. He provided photos to Bob Kuhn, aviation specialist for the accident investigation team. See TomStory.com

    • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

      Reply to Joy A. Collura post on January 17, 2019 at 8:07 pm

      >> Joy A. Collura said…
      >>
      >> As I am going through Arizona Republic Reporter’s Tom Story’s
      >> files and notes they being Arizona State Forestry – they had
      >> a Word Doc in his file and in it – it states something you
      >> will find very interesting

      If the timeframe Tom Story is referring to when he went back to the ICP to recharge his laptop is right after he shot his photos at the Ranch House Restaurant… then yea… that was a very confusing time.

      At that time… even IC Roy Hall ( at the ICP ) thought a ‘recovery operation’ was going to be needed… and people actually continued to believe that even AFTER the radio calls finally went out about ’19 confirmed dead’ at the deployment site.

      That’s because someone had told DPS Helicopter Ranger 58 to be searching for MORE than just the Granite Mountain Hotshots.

      From Type 2 IC Roy Hall’s SAIT Interview notes…
      —————————————————————————————————
      17:39 ( 5:39 PM )
      LOFR Dana Schimdt working with Yavapai County Sherriff Office.
      Working with Scott Masher, 6 lifeline helos ordered to assist with recovery.

      18:28 ( 6:28 PM )
      Byron Kimble and Todd Able requested a type 2 crew at Ranch House
      restaurant to assist with recovery.

      ( One minute later… the bad news… no ‘medevac’ needed… )

      18:29 ( 6:29 PM )
      Musser called. 19 confirmed no medevac necessary. Scene secured.

      18:34 – 18:41 ( 6:34 – 6:41 PM )
      Same confirmation from Todd Able, Byron Kimble and Willis.

      ———————————————————————————————–

      From Pilot David Morgan’s SAIT interview notes…

      NOTE: Helicopter 215KA was the red/white chopper that is seen in all the Panebaker Air Study videos doing bucket drops in/around Peeples Valley that day.

      Call sign was ‘Kilo Alpha’ ( KA ) and not ‘QA’. The SAIT got it wrong in their notes.

      Interview with Pilot David Morgan 215QA
      Interviewed by ( SAIT )… Brad, Tim, and Mike
      —————————————————————————————————
      Went to Wickenberg to refuel, the wind event had stopped.
      The Ranger ( DPS Helicopter ) unit had located the hotshots and he had started rigging for repel over at the helibase for a rescue mission.

      —————————————————————————————————

      SAIT investigation notes from their inteview with Air Attack ‘Bravo 3’,
      Rusty Warbis and Paul Lenmark

      —————————————————————————————————
      As soon as Bravo 3 leaves, I called life flight…..crew down. Need a flight with capacity for 25 patients. Two cranes were working the line in division Z going back and forth. It was kinda nasty and charged right on through town (Div Z).

      We ran until dark, all propane tanks were venting.

      Ranger 58 finds the crew and called. 18 confirmed.

      Peterson reported to helibase. Peterson doesn’t know if we can repel. I told him to be repel ready.

      I am thinking that we are still looking for 2 but don’t need a lifeline.

      It’s dark.
      ——————————————————————————————————

      NOTE: When they say they were ‘still looking for 2′ even after the call of ’18 confirmed dead’ came in from the deployment site… this could be a reference to testimony from DPS Ranger 58 officers who said they were initially told ( by some still-unknown person ) to be searching for ALL of the following…

      1. The Granite Mountain Hotshots
      2. A ‘Division Supervisor’ ( DIVSA )
      3. A bulldozer and its operator.

      So even when the ’18 confirmed’ call came in… it was ( apparently ) unclear that DIVSA was also among the dead… and so they just continued looking ( for an unknown additional amount of time ) for ‘DIVSA’ and the ‘dozer operator’.

      From the SAIT interview notes with the DPS Helicopter Ranger 58 Officers…

      —————————————————————————————————–
      ( Pilot ) Cliff ( Brunsting ) relayed to B3 we have 19 confirmed…

      “fatalities?” B3 asked.

      Affirm.

      ( Officer ) Eric ( Tarr ) was looking for 20-22 ppl
      he was told it would be the crew, dozer and a DIVS.

      So they walked the area very well.
      —————————————————————————————————-

      We still don’t know when ( or how ) all this got straightened out, and everyone involved ( YCSO and Arizona DPS included ) finally understood that the ‘DIVSA’ they were looking for was, in fact, also the superintendent of the GM Hotshots and he perished with them… and that dozer operator Paul Morin was,, in fact, ‘accounted for’.

      • Woodsman says

        Multiple statements by Yarnell Hill fire managers (overhead) speaking in terms of using aircraft to “assist with recovery?” Recovery in the fire/rescue world means retrieve the body or remains. They were planning on removing the bodies from the hill asap. Possibly in an attempt to hide what happened from the media and protect the survivors which of course would completely botch any kind of scene investigation. Did these managers succeed in this plan to contaminate the scene at any level?

        I don’t trust any of it. And I certainly am not naive enough to believe something did or did not occurr based on the evidence being available. This was a massive cover-up from the moment it happened and is such to this day.

        • Woodsman says

          If it weren’t for the professionalism of state police officer TARR, the efforts & intentions of the Prescott, Arizona wildfire mafia to cover-up the accident would have been much more successful than it was. The house of lies and half truths is crumbling one brick at a time. Fortunately there at least SOME public servants left with integrity. For example there are those that believe the highest honor to GM would be for the whole truth to be known & studied by future generations in order to fight fires more safely & effectively. This would mean the lives of GM were worth something instead of nothing. Brian Frisby is one of many I hold in this class of people with integrity.

          • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

            Reply to Woodsman post on January 18, 2019 at 4:54 am

            >> Woodsman said…
            >>
            >> If it weren’t for the professionalism of state police
            >> officer TARR, the efforts & intentions of the Prescott,
            >> Arizona wildfire mafia to cover-up the accident
            >> would have been much more successful than it was.

            I agree.

            According to the testimony of DPS Ranger Pilot Clifford Brunsting, he had offered to land and pick up Officer Tarr after he had confirmed the fatalities… but Tarr declined because he knew he had to stay that on the ground… in the midst of that horror… and tape-off / secure the site.

            I can almost hear one ( or more ) of the 5 FFs who were there with him ( Jason Clawson, KC ‘Bucky’ Yowell, Aaron Hulburd, Brian Frisby and Trueheart Brown ), when they saw him start stringing ‘tape… “What are you doing?”

            …and Tarr simply replying… “My job”.

            • Woodsman says

              You want to know what I “Can almost hear?”

              Cordes, Willis, et al saying: ” this country hasn’t burned in a long time. The fuel load is extremely high. We’ve known for a while that we were going to have to deal with a fire right here sooner or later. The best thing we can do is get an anchor on this thing, figure out where our control lines need to be, & burn it all. Then we won’t have to deal with a fire again here for a long time. We’ve been cross training and coordinating will the forestry folks for years just for this. Call all your friends this is gonna be big. Alright we’ve got some lines in & making progress on the ignitions in multiple divisions – working slick as a whistle. It’s mid-afternoon and the winds are in the perfect direction. Oh Shit, there’s a thunderstorm building! Now the winds are increasing & changing direction! What do we do now? When do we evacuate citizens? Do we need to pull our folks off the line? Man, our ignitions are burning like gangbusters! Damn! I think our fires coupled with the main fire is really going to get big. Think it’s going to get some structures. Everyone’s outta the way of this thing, right? RIGHT???? Damn. GMs caught in there. Thought they had time to get to the bomb proof safety zone at the ranch in order to regroup & help with these structures. Deployment??? Bullshit, they had plenty of time to get there!!! You can’t locate GM? I know where they are & where they were going. Should I say something? Think I’m gonna be sick…”

              While we’re coming up ideas of what people on the fire were probably thinking, I figure I’d give it a shot too….

              • Charlie says

                I do think you are correct in your estimation of that situation. When on the mountain at the time I told Joy that very thing–they are not really working to put this fire out–this is a controlled burn–now called a prescribed burn in the new fire-speak.

                That was an area about Yarnell that needed a burn for one thing. When Joy and I talked to one Rancher that was a suspect on starting the Tenderfoot fire, he flat out stated that in times past the ranchers would burn out those manzanita overgrowths so that new forage could come in and cattle would be able to graze. Of course he had absolutely nothing to do with this modern fire–laws have changed and because Yarnell is established where residents and people are at risk, only a controlled prescribed burn should be administered by the elite fire fighting crews.

                You would think with the millions spent working the Yarnell fire, someone in the State Department would spend the necessary millions to build a defensible boundary around the small town. A new fire is inevitable–especially since the huge amount of high grade fertilizer (retardant) that has been dumped around Yarnell, much right at peoples door steps.

                When I saw the official document Joy pointed out that laid aside the very dense and dehydrated area next the Helms on June 16, 2013 it added to my thought that this might have been a welcomed situation–lightening strike and damn it let it bur Of course the State no longer needed that document hanging around since that very area burned. Who knows some wild land fire boss unrelated to the fire might interpret it as being done for reasons other than the extreme fire hazard thing–keep out situation. So it was deleted.

                I got word that Helms cleaned their place up with a nice bomb proof defensible space at about the same time the restriction went out. My suspicious mind, because the Helms do about 10 million in government contracts in their Phoenix Mfg. Company, I did not take that as a coincidence. But there is no proof and again another coincidence.

                Well they did nice things during the fire and allowed a watering station there. I do not know the timing exactly on that or if it is congruent with anything–you would think anyone would allow such a thing. But check with Joy on this–I think that guy that had a small lake on the west side of the Weavers did refuse to allow copters to fill bags on his lake. Side note: Lakes are small in New Mexico and Arizona–when I was a kid I used to ride a bike to Cienaga lake some 20 miles away so I could fish. It was 50 yards across and 75 yards long fed by a spring. I did fry and eat a few of those fish as small as they were. Nice big bull frogs and so even ate a few frog legs from there. So the NM lake was smaller than the one this man had.

                So it was not really a question of whether it should have been burned out–that was a given considering the fire hazard and denseness of the manzanita.

                I think the low level fire departments are pretty much kept in the dark –or if not–they did not want to preform. Yarnell had access to several thousands of dollars allotted so they could do this defensible space a year before hand. I would have to go to Joy for the details–but they failed to get the money–hell it is hot in Yarnell and cleaning around houses is really tough work–something akin to wild land fire fighters digging line–So as it was nothing happened. To the credit of Ben Palm–his crew were sent out to do clean up work and defensible space. I paid for mine at the cabin but likely he would have sent a crew there as well.

                After the fire damn near did not need the defensible space but you really do since if you ;have an overgrown yard right up to your woodpile on ;your wooden porch then you ought to clean things out for 25 ft. or more. Too many homes that were left intact were still in that situation even after the fire.

                I sense that we have an Ignacius de Loya in the running for the truth here. That is good since the Society of Jesus has 99% of the time been doing what is right. I pay my respects there since Father Burns was a member of that Society and one of my best friends in this life. I have a smile thinking of him and times we had ice cream together; He wound up in Minnesota last I heard and God took his soul–thanks Father Burns you looked better in civilian clothes than that grey monk suit but no matter you did my heart good.

                But I certainly saw a lot of coincidences–and too many coincidences ain’t a coincidence. A cowboy tole me that and maybe he read that on the back of a bull durum sack.

        • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

          Reply to Woodsman post on January 18, 2019 at 4:22 am

          >> Woodsman said…
          >>
          >> They were planning on removing the bodies from the hill asap.

          Yes, they were. No doubt.

          Like it was “nobody’s business but ours”..

          In both her BOOK and in her recent PUBLIC address… DJ Helm confirms both of the following…

          1. Despite all the attempts by Mke Dudley, Jim Karels, and the rest of the SAI team to ‘hide’ the fact that Prescott National Forest employees Jason Clawson, Aaron Hulburd and KC ‘Bucky’ Yowell were even THERE in Yarnell on Sunday, June 30, 2013… DJ Helm comes right out and NAMES ‘Jason Clawson’ as the firefighter who first walked onto her property from the direction of the deployment site and told her of the GM deaths. Clawson told her he thought they were going to need to ‘get them out’ right away with helicopters ( with not even any thought of there needing to be an investigation first ). DJ Helm gave persmission for that… but that plan then changed to pushing in the dozer road instead because it finally dawned on the fire fighters that those bodies weren’t going anywhere until the YCSO Police did an official investigation of the death site.

          2. After the fatalities… one of the ‘officials’ who came out to the BSR ( Incident within an Incident commander Todd Abel? ) came right up to them and said… (quote) “This is a big deal… and we don’t want ANYONE TO KNOW ABOUT IT”. (unquote). Even by that time, however, the news was already spreading everywhere. Jason Clawson himself had already reported the deaths over non-private radio frequencies which were being monitored by the public and the media.

          That being said… I suppose it could be argued that Roy Hall still thought ‘recovery’ meant there might be survivors… since he interview statement times indicated his thinking even BEFORE he was told they were all dead…

          But as for GM ‘Incident within an Incident’ commander Todd Abel requesting a ‘Type 2’ team to ‘assist with recovery’… you don’t send a bunch of ground-pounders in to a site that has casualties that need medical attention. You send in ground-pounders to just carry bodies out, ASAP.

          • Woodsman says

            You didn’t understand what I said or you don’t believe me: “recovery” = retrieve dead bodies. No one “recovers” survivors.

        • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

          Reply to Woodsman post on January 18, 2019 at 4:22 am

          >> Woodsman said…
          >>
          >> Did these managers succeed in this plan to contaminate
          >> the scene at any level?

          Based on a photograph that Christopher MacKenzie took that morning, out at the anchor point, Robert Caldwall had and Oregon 450 GPS unit attached to his pack strap… and the LCD screen indicated it was, indeed, POWERED ON.

          That GPS Unit vanished from the deployment site.

          In his ADOSH interview, Brendan McDonough also said that Granite Mountain would normally have had at least 4 ( FOUR ) GPS Units with them on any given assignment.

          No GPS Units ever entered the YCSO Police evidence chain.

          Yet… in an email uncovered by InvestigativeMEDIA… we see OPS2 Paul Musser ( who ended up working as a consultant for the AZ Forestry lawyers in their fight against ADOSH ) asking SAIT Co-lead Mike Dudley “did we ever get any information off the GPS Units”..

          Not “Did we ever RECOVER any GPS Units”.

          He was asking Dudley “Did we ever get any data OFF them”.

          Seems to indicate that Musser KNEW that Dudley DID have access to the ‘vanished’ GM GPS Units… and he was just wondering what, if anything, Dudley ever got off them.

          There is also the fact that just after DPS Helicopter Ranger 58 discovered the bodies, and dropped off Medic Eric Tarr by the BSR Cattle Pond to hike to the site, Ranger 58 went back to the helibase to refuel. While there, a YCSO police Captain got onboard to fly back down with them and take photographs ( and a video ) of the deployment site.

          According to testimony from the DPS officers…. he used TWO smartphones to accomplish that task ( from the air, over the deployment site ).

          If there were then any ‘differences’ between what those photos / videos showed and what the YCSO detectives then photographed the next morning… there should have been ( and still should be ) hell to pay.

          • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

            Apologies. Bad typo up above.

            His name was “Robert Caldwell”… not “Caldwall”.

            I do wish we could ‘Edit’ posts after hitting ‘Send’.

    • Charlie says

      Wow, what was that about Survivors–and why would they shield them. A big question mark for sure since it sounds like someone was trapped in the fire that they did not want people to see since that would give an indication of where the location of retrieval was and I would believe it would have to be a crew or members of a crew that were saved from a fire trap.

      This is the year 2019–an omen that more will be revealed maybe to the point there will be closure for loved ones. With the unsolved mystery and huge amount of redaction and orders of silence there can be no closure.

      • Charlie says

        I have to remember now how Trueheart was cursing about somebody burning themselves out–is there a connection there? Well too many are afraid to speak up–but that seems to be changing after the new year.

    • The Truth Will Always Remain Elusive says

      Joy,

      Story’s statement:

      “All the time I was listening to the radio about how DPS WAS bringing the survivors out” (my emphasis)

      Sounds like he could also have meant to say “surviving family members”.

      To me, “was bringing the survivors out” indicates something that was all ready occurring.

      There WERE one or more family members who came to the scene after the deployment.

      If the notes WERE about those family members, they would certainly need “protection” as is also mentioned in the notes. At this point, though, I think WTKTT’s response and explanation is a bit more plausible than this theory.

  2. Joy A. Collura says

    World,

    in the recent re-post of the videos I did for Sonny down below

    I shared to Sonny I would make this time to make this post too-

    can you make your best assessment of where you assess in your own perception and beliefs where Eric Marsh and the sawyers were standing when you hear the saw go off on the radio?

    Do you assume he was at the Deployment Zone? At the ranch? Near the ranch? or play I don’t know I wasn’t there

    …but maybe just maybe there is someone(s) that are alive that can share and I really hope if that person exists – that he/she come to me finally in private or here in public but man do not keep holding the data … it is not worth it.. I am doing my best to feed it out…

    • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

      Reply to Joy A. Collura post on January 17, 2019 at 3:43 pm

      >> Joy A. Collura said…
      >>
      >> can you make your best assessment of where you assess
      >> in your own perception and beliefs where Eric Marsh
      >> and the sawyers were standing when you hear the saw
      >> go off on the radio?

      As for some of the GM ‘sawyers’…

      The photos that YCSO detective Waldock took out at the deployment site are all still in this online folder…

      https://www.dropbox.com/sh/02ue6bnjp6nazkm/AAArgU431CvSi-rzU2wpYCg4a/Photos%20and%20Video/YCSO%20Waldock%20Photos?dl=0&preview=IMG_0017.JPG&subfolder_nav_tracking=1

      I think it can be assumed that some of the ‘chainsaws’ that are there on the ground, at the eastern edge of the deployment site, mark the spot where some of the sawyers were working until the very last moment, and then they just ‘dropped’ their saws and retreated to the center of the deployment site to deploy their shelters.

      >> Joy A. Collura also said…
      >>
      >> Do you assume he ( Marsh ) was at the Deployment Zone?
      >> At the ranch? Near the ranch? or play I don’t
      >> know I wasn’t there

      Overall… I take door number 3. ( “I don’t know, I wasn’t there” ).

      But if you are accepting ‘guesses’… my best guess, based on listening closely to all the botched-MAYDAY calls, that Eric Marsh was still running TO the actual deployment site ( from wherever he actually had been out ahead of them ), and he only ARRIVED there just in time to take over the call-outs to Air Attack ‘Bravo 33’… and then make his own ( final ) radio call from the deployment site.

      He still sounds ‘out of breath’ to me, in that final radio transmission, as if he had just finished hauling ass to get there ( from wherever it is he had been out ahead of them ).

      • Gary Olson says

        Me too, I think Marsh ran from a location either at or near the Helms Ranch so he could die with his crew since surely he saw the monster fire front bearing down on them and knew he was running into the very same death chute he had repeatedly (three times) ordered his crew to descend into (over Captain Jesse Steed’s objections) following his flagging (I believe).

        • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

          Reply to Gary Olson post on January 17, 2019 at 10:42 pm

          >> Gary Olson said…
          >>
          >> Me too, I think Marsh ran from a location either at or near
          >> the Helms Ranch so he could die with his crew

          And that will always leave the gut-wrenching truth that if Marsh was near safety, out ahead of them, but still had the time to run BACK to where THEY were… then that will always mean that THEY also had the time to run the same distance TOWARDS Marsh… and ( perhaps ) survive.

          The only thing Marsh should have been yelling into the radio was…

          “You have to RUN!!!… FORWARD!!!…. DO IT NOW!!!!!!!”

    • Joy A. Collura says

      what role does Sinclair’s powerpoint play for June 30, 2013 from here?:

      http://johnmacleanbooks.com/yarnell/sinclair.shtml

      the chain-sawed stobs (8452/8458) including several large bushes/trees disturbed by dozer photos ( 7054/8822/7412) and the actual gps location map of these photos taken of the stobs and dozer disruption

      were they (cutting actions) a part of an operational planning June 30 2013? (IMT/GMHS?/etc unknowns) or was it a last ditch effort to cut line or die like the Genghis Khan Hotshot tshirts states-
      .
      Little after the 12 minute mark of a facebook video called “Honoring The Brave” – Returning the Favor Alan stated on that video he was there as he nodded yes and said “yeah” when Mike Rowe stated so you were there as he looked at Alan and Alan said for IC training – peer supporter

      Alan SInclair never was in the SAIR interviews

      yet I have public records with photos showing YES HE WAS THERE as he stated on that facebook video referenced above that he was – it is probably one of the hardest photos for me because of his body language. Makes me horribly sad.

      I sometimes wonder if the people who gave me public records who redacted some areas and not other areas really knew who I was and that I am here to get the stuff public

      Some day my post will show all I got about Alan Sinclair and his accounts and photos on just public documents alone…

      Actually many people will not be kept aside…too many are to be pushed to the front… too many

      Yet go look at the powerpoint and go look at Google Earth and start pondering versus going back to the drawing board…

      Are these stobs and cut brush near the Helms (Boulder Springs Ranch) (BSR) evidence of one leg or another leg of the Sesame Street to Shrine Corridor? was this an IMT connection or Div A connection? I think the stobs matter for another reason than what is placed public but I am not yet willing to go there but I will in an official post some day with more documents.

      Go assess it yourself-

      • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

        Reply to Joy A. Collura post on January 17, 2019 at 4:51 pm

        >> Joy A. Collura said…
        >>
        >> Little after the 12 minute mark of a facebook video called
        >> “Honoring The Brave” – Returning the Favor Alan ( Sinclair ) stated
        >> on that video he was there as he nodded yes and said “yeah” when
        >> Mike Rowe stated so you were there as he looked at Alan and
        >> Alan said for IC training – peer supporter

        Probably more ‘peer supporter’ than ‘IC training’.

        There is no proof that he was ever ‘assigned’ for any kind of ‘IC Training’ at the 2013 Yarnell fire.

        Alan Sinclair’s name never appears in any official ‘Resource Order’ for the 2013 Yarnell Fire… and his name doesn’t appear anywhere in ANY of the published IAP documents for Yarnell, starting with the very first one that was ever published, at about 9:00 PM the night of the tragedy itself.

        Clay Templin’s Type 1 Team did not officially take over the 2013 Yarnell fire until about 6:00 PM on July 1, 2013, the day AFTER the tragedy.

        For the entire night-shift and the next day-shift following the tragedy, Roy Hall’s Type 2 Team was still in charge.

        But Alan Sinclair is never listed in ANY ‘IAP’ for Yarnell, not even as any kind of ‘Trainee’ ( Even though many other ‘Trainees’ in both Roy Hall’s one-and-only IAP and then all of Clay Templin’s subsequent IAPs ).

        Here are the links for the Yarnell IAP documents.

        It’s one big PDF file… but the TOP of the document is that one-and-only IAP that Roy Hall did and published the night of the tragedy.

        Clay Templin’s IAP documents cover the time period from July 2 through July 4.

        The document actually ALSO has all the ‘IAP’s for the SAIT investigation itself.

        In the public evidence folder…

        SAIT\Dropbox\Documentation\Planning\”D01-D06 – ASF000421-INV to 501-INV.pdf”

        Link to folder containing the document in the SAIT evidence dropbox…

        https://www.dropbox.com/sh/02ue6bnjp6nazkm/AAAuveDtgSZp9TqxPIAnyHRSa/Planning?dl=0&subfolder_nav_tracking=1

        Direct link to the document itself…

        https://www.dropbox.com/sh/02ue6bnjp6nazkm/AAAuveDtgSZp9TqxPIAnyHRSa/Planning?dl=0&preview=D01-D06+-+ASF000421-INV+to+501-INV.pdf&subfolder_nav_tracking=1

        • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

          Followup…

          In June of 2016, Alan Sinclair made a PUBLIC comment ( on Facebook ) and said he had been…

          ( quote ) “intimately involved in the Yarnell Hill Fire, where 19 firefighters lost there lives” ( endquote )

          He also stated ( publicly ) that this caused him to suffer PTSD and it almost ended his wildland firefighting career.

          https://www.facebook.com/sedonayogafestival/posts/thank-you-marc-titus-and-heather-shere%C3%A9-titusduring-fire-season-2012-marc-and-i-/1015227261906551/

          ————————————————————————————-
          Facebook PUBLIC comment

          From: Alan Sinclair‎
          To: Sedona Yoga Festival
          Date: June 24, 2016

          Thank you Marc Titus and Heather Shereé Titus!

          During Fire Season 2012, Marc and I were on the Mustang Complex on the Salmon Challis National Forest. One day I saw Marc parked in a meadow and I swung in to chat with him. He was considering quitting his career as a wildland firefighter and had a dream to bring yoga into the wildland community. I supported his dream because he seemed very passionate about it. At that time I didn’t realize that Marc had experienced a traumatic event during the Iron 44 Complex in 2008. Yoga was helping him cope and he wanted to share that with first responders.

          I knew about the Iron 44 Complex because 9 firefighters were killed in a helicopter crash, it was the deadliest crash of its kind in U.S. wildfire fighting history. I didn’t know my friend had been there.

          The Mustang Complex was Marc’s last assignment, he quit fighting fires and started the Sedona Yoga Festival. I stopped by and visited Marc and Heather during the inaugural festival in the spring of 2013. I had no idea that I would soon benefit from what they had to offer. I had never done yoga and wasn’t planning to.

          Three months later I was intimately involved in the Yarnell Hill Fire, where 19 firefighters lost there lives, including people I knew.

          My experience caused PTSD.

          My world was rocked and I was unsure if I would continue my career.

          Marc invited me back to the festival in 2014, I went but didn’t find anything for me. In 2015 he invited me back again. They were putting together a group of yoga instructors that would learn how to interact with first responders and people with PTSD. I forced myself to give it another try and actually got on a mat for the first time. It was a great experience, and I was able to really relax again.

          I still haven’t adopted a routine but I do use some of the breathing techniques and try to practice mindfulness. This became very valuable two weeks ago when my Incident Management Team was assigned to go back to Yarnell. I actually had to go back to the place I experienced my

          trauma and be in charge of a large, complex fire. This was an extreme challenge. I had to talk on camera worried I might show emotion. I had to insure safety of firefighters in a place that haunted me. A lot of my peers and friends reached out to me to offer support. I don’t think anyone could believe Yarnell was on fire again.

          Marc texted me with a message “Breathe”. And that’s what I did.

          I used the tools that I learned at the Sedona Yoga Festival, a consciousness evolution conference. I successfully completed the assignment.

          I am stronger today than I was prior to Yarnell, I have experienced Post Traumatic Growth. I really appreciate the support from my friends

          Marc and Heather, they are doing some good things!
          ———————————————————————————–

          • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

            Alan Sinclair inserts himself into the Yarnell situation to do ‘peer support’.

            He ends up with PTSD himself, so bad he almost ends his career.

            Sounds like they forgot to arrange ‘peer support’ for the ‘peer-support.’

      • Joy A Collura says

        I wanted to see if I could name one of the GMHS loved ones and that hike that happened – I can state factually there is more stobs then what Holly and Alan showed on their powerpoint near same area…it would be nice if it was as you say WTKTT and just share as you get it but I also seen what my sharing gets from local powers-
        but there is more missing data to that specific area behind the Helms.

        Needs those people to speak up-

        • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

          Reply to Joy A Collura post on January 17, 2019 at 6:04 pm

          >> Joy A. Collura said…
          >>
          >> I can state factually there is more stobs then what
          >> Holly and Alan showed on their powerpoint near
          >> same area.

          Where?… and when did you find them?

          Were they sort of ‘aligned’ along the dozer push from the Helms Ranch out to the deployment site, like the ones Holy and Alan found… or were they more ‘spread out’ than that?

      • Gary Olson says

        Joy ask, “what role does Sinclair’s powerpoint play for June 30, 2013 from here?:”

        IMHO…nothing. Sinclair is just a distraction associated with the other distractions of Team Maclean & NEIL.

  3. Robert the Second says

    Here is a 1995 research paper by Dr. Ted Putnam well worth reading with very interesting insights into human factors and human errors and the reluctance of investigations to delve into these causal factors.

    THE COLLAPSE OF DECISIONMAKING AND ORGANIZATIONAL STRUCTURE ON STORM KING MOUNTAIN

    Ted Putnam, Ph.D.
    USDA Forest Service
    Missoula Technology and Development Center
    February 1995

    “Stress, fear, and panic predictably lead to the collapse of clear thinking and
    organizational structure. While these psychological and social processes have
    been well studied by the military and the aircraft industry (Cockpit Resource
    Management) (Weick 1990 and Wiener, Kanki, and Helmrich 1993), the wildland
    fire community has not supported similar research for the fireline. The fatal
    wildland fire entrapments of recent memory have a tragic common denominator:
    human error. The lesson is clear: studying the human side of fatal wildland fire
    accidents is overdue.

    “Historically, wildland fire fatality investigations focus on external factors
    like fire behavior, fuels, weather, and equipment. Human and organizational
    failures are seldom discussed. When individual firefighters and support personnel
    are singled out, it’s often to fix blame in the same way we blame fire behavior or
    fuels. This is wrong headed and dangerous, because it ignores what I think is an
    underlying cause of firefighter deaths – the difficulty individuals have to
    consistently make good decisions under stress.

    “There’s no question individuals must be held accountable for their performance. But the fire community must begin determining at psychological and social levels why failures occur. The goal should not be to fix blame. Rather, it should be to give people a better understanding of how stress, fear, and panic combine to erode rational thinking and how to counter this process. Over the years, we’ve made substantial progress in modeling and understanding the external factors in wildland fire suppression and too little in improving thinking, leadership, and crew interactions.”

    “Everyone agrees our top priority should be reducing the number of entrapments by practicing safety and LCES. But we also need to face the reality that on average 30 firefighters are trapped each season, and that we have not taught them how to escape or to use fire shelters effectively, or the concepts discussed here. Clearly, firefighters need this type of training. Better personal and interpersonal skills will enable firefighters to optimally use all their training and experience under risky, stressful conditions.”

    ” … to be adequately prepared requires training, overlearning, and using these skills routinely before a crisis strikes. It is also clear these skills are a necessary prerequisite for effective decisionmaking concerning integrating fire behavior, weather, fuels, equipment, and human factors.”

    “The real issue is that we are not preparing our firefighters and managers to operate with maximal effectiveness under known stressful, risky conditions.”

    “Be especially wary of accepting increments of worsening conditions. It is deceptive to accept the increments rather than the entire change.”

    Kinda prescient and somewhat scary stuff, considering that most of the things discussed in this paper related to the YH Fire on June 30, 2013.

    ( http://www.au.af.mil/au/awc/awcgate/usda/blm_putnam_storm_king.pdf )

    • The Truth Will Always Remain Elusive says

      Brian Frisby email quote regarding Yarnell Hill Fire: “…………human factors were off the chart that day……..”

      • Gary Olson says

        IMHO…those are by far the most important words uttered by anyone in relationship to the the deaths of the crew on the YHFD.

  4. WantsToKnowTheTruth says

    Reply to Robert the Second ( RTS ) post on
    January 16, 2019 at 4:21 am

    >> RTS said…
    >>
    >> You posted: “And just so everyone understands where that puts us now.”
    >>
    >> What I posted along with Joy and Sonny – the June 30, 2013, weekend
    >> eyewitnesses, from the beginning of this IM website, along with Norb
    >> and Woodsman have been holding this line.
    >>
    >> It is not a “theory” and what appeared in the video that disappeared,
    >> like so many other YH Fire pieces of evidence, is factual.

    There have always been ‘suspicions’ that some manual burnouts might have taken place in the Yarnell area ( on June 30, 2013 ), even AS the main fire was coming into town… but when I used the word ‘now’, I was referring to the most recent discussions about this mysterious video… and all the recent ASSERTIONS ( including your newest one just above ) that it is a FACT.

    Even without there being any new ( verifiable ) evidence to support the ‘theory’.

    That feels like ‘new’ territory, and worthy of further discussion.

    >> RTS also said…
    >>
    >> Just because these witnesses speak of only seeing 2 FFs in the video does
    >> not preclude there being more in the firing operation. It is only what was
    >> seen and remembered in the video as well as where it allegedly “ended” in the video.

    Yes. I get it. The other ‘assertion’ on the table now seems to be that whatever was seen in the video that vanished was just the ‘end’ of a much longer burnout operation that started somewhere else ( like out on the dozer-line? Further west into Harper Canyon? Both? )

    >> RTS also said…
    >>
    >> “You are talking now about a much larger, lengthier and time-consuming operation.”
    >>
    >> EXACTLY! However, it is not just now, it’s been going on for a while, here
    >> and on Joy’s website ( http://www.yarnellhillfirerevelations.com )

    Ok. Fine. But you DO realize that increasing the size and complexity of this ‘operation’ just makes it harder and harder to balance this ‘theory’ against ALL of the other existing ( non-deleted ) video and photographic evidence, correct?

    I mean… you DO know that there ARE photographs of the Blue Ridge Hotshots out on that dozer-line taken as late as 3:30 PM that day, and shortly before they completely evacuated that area, right?

    And they are ALONE out there, and they are NOT ‘lighting anything up’, nor is there any ‘fire’ whatsoever seen along that dozer line?

    Zero. Zip. Nada.

    So depending on WHEN you think this ‘larger, lengthier and time-consuming’ operation even started…. things get increasingly complicated, evidence-wise.

    It’s still going to have to ‘fit’ into a timeframe where there is already KNOWN ( verifiable ) evidence of when it certainly was NOT happening.

    And regarding your reference to the ‘yarnellhillrevelations’ BLOG site…

    Can you specify WHICH posts over there you are talking about which are relevant to THIS discussion?

    I believe I have read all the posts over there, at this point, and I can’t recall any that were presenting any evidence that wasn’t just more ‘conjecture’ about what MIGHT have happened.

    Maybe I missed something over there?

    >> RTS also said…
    >>
    >> “The Blue Ridge Hotshots are the only ones known to have EVER
    >> been working ( on foot ) out on that dozer-line.”
    >>
    >> The BRHS are the only ones officially SAIT-SAIR “known” to have been
    >> working out on the dozer line.

    See above regarding existing ( non-deleted ) photographs taken by Blue Ridge Hotshots.

    They were out there by themselves.

    If some ‘secret squad’ showed up there to start ‘lighting shit up’… it had to have happened after these photos were taken, and probably after Blue Ridge left the dozer-line since NONE of them mention ever seeing anyone else out there.

    >> RTS also said…
    >>
    >> Working on the dozer line and engaging in a firing operation in
    >> that area are two different operations.

    Well, I would call both things simply ‘working on the dozer-line’, regardless of what ‘work’ was being performed… but I get your attempt at semantics.

    In any case… the whole issue is WHEN this ‘firing operation’ could have possibly happened, and still have it ‘fit’ into the existing ( non-deleted ) evidence.

    >> RTS also said…
    >>
    >> “Are you saying you now believe they have ALL been liars… in ALL of
    >> their testimony and Unit Logs… and they really did set fire to that dozer-line that day?”
    >>
    >> Where is it posted that I believe “they have all been LIARS”?
    >> First off, who is “they”?

    I would have thought it was obvious what I was asking you… but maybe ( to help you out ) I should have reiterated ‘Blue Ridge Hotshots’ in that paragraph, even though that’s who I had just referred to in the preceding paragraph.

    Does this rewrite make it more clear what I was asking?…

    “Are you saying you now believe the Blue Ridge Hotshots have ALL been liars… in ALL of their testimony and Unit Logs… and they really did set fire to that dozer-line that day?”

    >> RTS also said…
    >>
    >> Everywhere in the BRHS unit logs and notes and statements, it clearly
    >> mentions otherwise.

    My turn to not ‘grok’ something you just said.

    ‘Otherwise’ what?

    What ALL of the Blue Ridge Hotshots photos, videos, testimony and Unit Logs establish is that they never even attempted to burn out that dozer-line that day.

    This is why I was asking you if you now think they actually DID do that… which ( if that is the case ) would mean you are NOW calling ALL of them ( The Blue Ridge Hotshots ) LIARS.

    >> RTS also said…
    >>
    >> There is and has been strong suggestive evidence of what
    >> Hybrid FFs were involved that firing operation that day.

    ‘Suggestive’ evidence does not a FACT make.

    >> RTS also said…
    >>
    >> More to follow …

    I certainly hope so… because there isn’t enough available ( yet ) to really draw any full conclusions about all this.

    >> RTS also said…
    >>
    >> One of the FFs involved in this operation told me that they were
    >> directed by their agency supervisors to not discuss the YH Fire
    >> with anyone except the SA Investigation Team.

    Ah…. okay… so some ‘secret’ group of ‘Hybrid FF’s just snuck out there onto the dozer line ( AFTER the Blue Ridge Hotshots had stopped taking photographs out there and AFTER they had evacuated the dozer-line ) and they ‘lit it up’, then somehow got out of there without either burning ‘themselves’ up… or anyone detecting them… and they have all been hiding what they did from everyone but Mike Dudley, Jim Karels, Brad Mayhew and the rest of the SAIT?

    And this can all fit into some timeframe that would balance such a narrative ( successfully ) against all the existing ( non-deleted ) evidence?

    Just trying to make sure I have the parameters of this ‘task at hand’ correct.

    Where’s that popcorn?

    I mean… yea… there WERE Engines / Crews that WERE actually part of TFLD(t) Tyson Esquibel’s ‘Task Force 2’ for which there have ( mysteriously ) NEVER been any actual ‘Resource Orders’, so we don’t even know who the crews were.

    Example: Glendale Brush Truck E-156 ( Two door modified pickup with a tank and some hoses ). It is SEEN parked at the Shrine Youth Camp alongside Tyson Esquibel’s White-and-Yellow Glendale FD command vehicle… and it is SEEN coming OUT of the Youth Camp area in Aaron Hulburd’s video M2U00264… but there has NEVER been a ‘Resource Order’ associated with this Glendale Engine 156.

    Just like there was never a ‘Resource Order’ for Prescott National Forest ( USFS ) employee Jason Clawson… it would seem like someone wanted to ALSO ‘hide’ the fact that Glendale Engine 156 was ever even ‘there’ in Yarnell, on Sunday, June 30, 2013.

    But regardless… just the fact that a ‘Resource Order’ is ‘missing’ still doesn’t mean this mysterious ‘Engine 156’ had anything to do with any ‘burnouts’ that day.

    MORE evidence would have to see the light of day.

    • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

      Followup…

      Forgot to mention regarding your ‘yarnellhillfirerevelations’ BLOG reference…

      >> RTS said…
      >>
      >> A visit to Joy’s post will help.
      >> “Part Two – Who Do We Continue to Distinguish And Read
      >> About as the Likely Participants in the Undeniable Sesame
      >> to Shrine Corridor Fuel / Fire Break Possible Firing Operation?”

      https://www.yarnellhillfirerevelations.com/single-post/2018/08/18/Part-2-of-Who-Do-We-Continue-to-Distinguish-And-Read-About-as-the-Likely-Participants-in-the-Undeniable-Sesame-to-Shrine-Corridor-Fuel-Fire-Break-Possible-Firing-Operation

      I HAVE read that BLOG post. Part 1 as well.

      Is there a ‘Part 3’, or something?… because, as I already stated, there really is nothing but conjecture in ‘Part 1’ and ‘Part 2’… and nothing I saw to even justify the use of the the word ‘Undeniable’ in the title of the BLOG posts themselves.

      Interesting stuff… fer sure.

      But actual PROOF of anything?… Not yet.

    • Robert the Second says

      WTKTT,

      Okay there Captain Obvious.

      Let’s say we take the hypothetical leap of “we have enough evidence.”

      Where do we go from there? Who do we take on our tactical combat patrol and whom do we buttonhole, and whose door do we knock on?

      Former USFS Fire Director Tom Harbor? Former AZ State Forester Jeff Whitney? Governor Ducey?

      Do you have the necessary legal retainer fees at your beck and call to lend support?

      What happens if we never find enough evidence to suit you?

      How do you suppose the SAIT came up with the data to delineate the SAIR fire perimeters specifically from 3 PM to 5 PM?

      ( https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UOLix3zrnbg ) SaneelGB Published on Feb 12, 2017

      ( https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VpkJZuxSayo ) 1915oz Published on Jun 29, 2013

      • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

        Reply to Robert the Second ( RTS ) post on January 16, 2019 at 10:36 pm

        >> RTS said…
        >>
        >> WTKTT,
        >>
        >> Okay there Captain Obvious.
        >>
        >> Let’s say we take the hypothetical leap of “we have enough evidence.”

        To what end?

        Just for the sake of saying something has already been proven to be TRUE… when it has NOT?

        >> RTS also said…
        >>
        >> Where do we go from there?

        Nowhere, really… except ( maybe? )… back to the drawing board?

        >> RTS also said…
        >>
        >> Do you have the necessary legal retainer fees at your beck
        >> and call to lend support?

        Nope. Way above my paygrade.

        >> RTS also said…
        >>
        >> What happens if we never find enough evidence to suit you?

        Well… I guess I’d just remain someone who will still wonder if things
        you are claiming to be TRUE… really are.

        I don’t have an unreasonable threshhold… but I DO have one.

        >> RTS also said…
        >>
        >> How do you suppose the SAIT came up with the data to delineate
        >> the SAIR fire perimeters specifically from 3 PM to 5 PM?

        I don’t know ( specifically ). Do you?

        • Joy A. Collura says

          Thank you for reading my blog ( http://www.yarnellhillfirerevelations.com ) and catching the important verbiage I have shared there especially on Frisby’s own email thread, The Truth Will Always Remain Elusive.

          I am doing my best to get additional education so when I am doing that blog I know the verbiage I am dishing out. and in the end I am going to show much more

          just hard to balance schooling and training and conferences and blog all at same time…it is not easy at almost 50 (rounded up) and my track record shows housewife hiker so using areas I have not in a long time.

          plus taking on projects as I have outside that in the fire industry and I also placed myself “on call” for Forestry…not stretched thin but definitely not in the spot to daily write a post.

          It is one of the most difficult, right things to do to begin to present the materials.

          Reflection…

          I reflect to the day I began my blog last Summer as the eyewitness to the YH Fire who lives in the very town and area I am discussing and not on a pc analyzing from afar…

          Very huge difference…

          At this point, I was faced with a critical decision.

          I could agree to the SAIT to what I saw that weekend and keep all I gathered and go on in life.

          or begin to share what I have gathered knowing full well there are some very good people doing situational ethics and it is not a free blog….

          I had a lady from NM read my blog and send me funds and I am unable to legally accept her funds and will not because I am presenting non-commercial purpose records to the world not commercial purpose records so I can share them but not make funds. It was not a little amount she sent and I had to refuse it….her notes and beautiful cards warm my heart yet her funds I may not use. I appreciate her attempt.

          her first message Thank you
          Joy I feel like I know you even though we’ve never met. Your dedication to the GMHS story is amazing and I have loved reading your observations on Investigative Media’s site. Best wishes to you and Sonny from a virtual friend in Albuquerque.
          7/7/2018, 5:27 AM

          I could have spent the funds claiming she first knew me from here (IM) but until she had affirmed such I was never going to risk it.

          The blog has been so healing to other firefighters who 18 years later remember their traumas as if it is this day it happened when they had their near misses.

          I am so disappointed by the racism layers I have seen others face.

          I mean you would think the segregated bathrooms ended decades ago.

          REMEMBER

          I live here.

          My unwillingness to budge on as what locals would verbiage just leave it alone…you cannot bring the men back…let it rest….

          but my life has always been for children and elders and they deserve to be given facts.

          Lessons learned…Lives Matter…Safety Matters!

          I have seen others unpleasantness and intensities to an extreme degree and here I still am calm ( number 4 in the current fire orders – right Bob Powers ).

          I have not given up.

          I remain firm on my position on this matter and WTKTT has great points-

          there is not enough public evidence strong enough

          but I have the right folks who do have the information in case mine ever vanishes or even me

          and in God’s time He is sharing it.

          I mean I was to be at home on Christmas for awhile and that day God had me focused to immediate YH Fire need so yes I was with my husband/family but after the Holiday dinner I was off to do more on this area.

          At what point is “Enough is Enough?”, RTS…I think WTKTT has valid points and my perception is when they stop redacting and omitting and protecting and start speaking TRUTH then we will get somewhere…

          I think we can all handle the truth even the loved ones and the homeowners to some degree

          yet I will guarantee two grand never came my way like two speakers got on speaking about YH Fire five years later that their speaking was reduced in speaking time due to Mayhew and I speak openly and no dime exchanged

          but anyone even me the eyewitness should always be kept in check and challenged…

          I take no offense in it.

          and if MacLean’s book comes out and I have the documents to show differently I will SPEAK UP…He has no clue HOW MUCH data I was given since the fire and I will assure you silly rubbish stuff like saying they are hiking pals but not sexual will not be something to fun with as he has done in his career to 2 eyewitness to a horrific fire were 19 men died and so many after the fire – he went off into areas so distasteful to who Sonny is and me. I am a side kick kinda gal but not deserving to see or hear those layers after the horrific paths I have seen…

          speaking of Sonny, – Gary you are missing out on some cute pups of his…cute. Playful and so happy.

          I will not allow anyone to just to make their own narratives like they done on prior fires…

          If you are a firefighter or were and you want a post on my blog with full name or anonymous or to meet in person to share – reach me…your story…your life matters! Near misses and close calls welcomed too not just fatalities. I will place it out your way and tastefully.

          one of the fires that hits close to me was in 2000 on the Judith Complex and its real time data vs the media malarkey.

          there is a time to say enough is enough and I as much as people think I am here to ramble…I do think we all are here based on WTKTT avatar

          we want the truth

          In close, I stand firm that both men RTS and WTKTT are right.
          No drawing board verbiage needed…but down below I will expand on this…

          but for me, I could have easily gone along with this SAIT and kept on doing my own life stuff but I knew it was not right and it violated my leadership values, as well as my personal ideals and my integrity, and Faith.

          I have the courage to do the harder right 😉

          I hope others choose the “hard right” over the “easy wrong”

          If we stop the bbqs Wtktt, and bring more data out – do you have a plan when the evidence is finally out? What is your plan for what to do with it…

          Who’s drawing board are we to use? That I need to know,,,,where are you going to present it when you have it on your drawing board. what’s the next step?

          Who has a vested interest in this YH Fire?

          I am the eye-witness and so mine is a moral and close to heart one to do right

          RTS- I would bet he has one because of his academic and extended Wildland firefighting work experience Safety Does Matter vested interest

          the ones who faced losses have a vested one…
          what is yours?

          at this point in time we all should make it known to the world our vested interests-

          let’s see…

          As for the perimeter reply you gave did not seem like your kind of an answer.

          I want to thank for staying with me on IM.

          Noone gets near the amount of hours you have placed into this site..

          I can do the overlay stuff and have shown IM folks off here I can but it takes time to do it
          I appreciate you and I do not comprehend the no interest in the back burns and no orange gorillas.

          MY VESTED INTEREST:

          I was personally caught in the middle of a “traumatic catastrophic poor choices made by other” experience and saw things never reported and I never thought the very state I love – ARIZONA – would be so disjointed and disoriented of negligence and failed me.and redact as much as they have and used the Touhy route alot when so many lives were lost on 1 day and that annual after from the effect of the YH Fire.

          I was not expecting to see what we saw June 30, 2013 –

          for that I persevere.

          I do not need an audience to applaud or stand by me but I do need others who know more to share more…

          I just wonder over time why

          • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

            Reply to Joy A. Collura post on January 17, 2019 at 11:57 am

            >> Joy A. Collura said…
            >>
            >> I will not allow anyone to just to make their own
            >> narratives like they done on prior fires…

            Exactly… and that includes paying diligent attention to the difference between things that *might* have happened… but still need to be PROVED, and things that are *known* to have happened, because they HAVE been PROVED.

            >> Joy A. Collura also said…
            >>
            >> If we stop the bbqs Wtktt, and bring more data out – do
            >> you have a plan when the evidence is finally out? What
            >> is your plan for what to do with it…

            ‘bbqs’??

            Not sure what that means, but FWIW I assure you I am never trying to ‘barbecue’ anyone.

            Sometimes not “picking up what someone is putting down” ( and explaining WHY )… yes.

            Sometimes not accepting what others think is “sufficient evidence” ( and explaining WHY )…yes.

            But there is never any lighter-fluid involved.

            It’s all just in the interests of ‘fact checking’.

            As for “What is MY plan for what to do with more data”…

            Are you asking me if I’m some kind of prosecutor, who would have the ability to go ‘after’ people once it is proved they are ( and have always been ) lying?

            I can assure you… I am no such thing.

            From my perspective… first and foremost… the ( public ) KNOWLEDGE should be the ‘plan’ itself.

            The public still has the ‘right to know’ everything about this National Tragedy.

            Anything that might happen after that would always remain to be seen.

            Depends on what comes to light.

            SIDENOTE: You do know that even civil suits that have been ‘settled’ can be ‘refiled’ and ‘reopened’ if sufficient ‘new evidence’ comes to light, right?

            >> Joy A. Collura said…
            >>
            >> at this point in time we all should make it known
            >> to the world our vested interests-

            This is public forum.

            No one needs to have any kind of ‘vested interest’ to participate.

            All you have to do is follow the normal rules of online forum participation and not become some kind ‘troll’.

            By the way… ( trivia time )…

            The phrase “vested interest” is so commonly used that, even though it has 2 words, it is considered to be a ‘noun’ by Merriam Webster and it has its own definition…

            https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/vested%20interest

            —————————————————————————–
            “vested interest” noun

            Definition of vested interest

            1 : an interest (such as a title to an estate) carrying a legal right of present or future enjoyment specifically : a right vested in an employee under a pension plan

            2 : a special concern or stake in maintaining or influencing a condition, arrangement, or action especially for selfish ends

            3 : one having a vested interest in something specifically : a group enjoying benefits from an existing economic or political privilege
            ——————————————————————————

            Based on the ‘dictionary definition’… I guess I would have to say that I really don’t have any ( official ) ‘vested interest’ at all.

            But I’m still just as interested in finding out the TRUTH as I have always been.

            >> Joy A. Collura also said…
            >>
            >> I appreciate you and I do not comprehend the no interest
            >> in the back burns and no orange gorillas.

            You haven’t been paying attention.

            I am ( and have always been ) 100 percent ‘interested in the back burns’ and whether or not they can be fully ‘proved’ and/or fully ‘disproved’. It may very well turn out that neither is possible… but I am still VERY interested to know which it is.

            And with regards to ‘orange gorillas’…

            You keep using that phrase. What does it actually MEAN?

          • Gary Olson says

            Joy said, “speaking of Sonny, – Gary you are missing out on some cute pups of his…cute. Playful and so happy.”

            I don’t dare look because I am a dog person, (which I never was until Una decided she was my dig after she was left at our house so we could find her a new home) and I can’t fall in love with, or get one of them because they are known as an aggressive breed.

            I have gone from being a home owner for more than 20 years to a home or apartment renter. And German Shepherds are just one of the breeds who aren’t compatible with my lifestyle.

            And just remember what I have always written on this thread from day one, “I’m not here to make friends (or even keep the ones I had) or add to my Christmas Card list.” I’m here to learn everything I can about the deaths if our crew on the YHFD.

            You and I have a Division Of Labor, as I have with so many other people. It’s my job to shake the trees to see if any fruits 🍎 or nuts 🥜 will fall out. It’s your job to withhold that information, intelligence and evidence from me just as long as you see fit. Which is certainly your constitutional right to do, just as it is my right to keep asking…because that is what I do.

            Teasing you…is optional.

            • Gary Olson says

              Oh…and one more thing. I owned five different homes during that 20 year period…which really sucked in the end. So…don’t do that unless you really have to. And even then…don’t do it.

      • Gary Olson says

        RTS…I have been doing research for my highly anticipated and much acclaimed tome, “Betrayed By Our Fire Gods” or “Rise Of The Hybrid Firefighters”, or, “ Betrayed By Our Fire Gods…Again” or, On the Fire Line…Memoirs Of a Busted Down Former Hotshot” and I noted there is only one (1) hotshot crew listed on the hotshot roster for the NPS, the “Arrowhead Hotshots?” I thought they had three or more crews these days?

    • The Truth Will Always Remain Elusive says

      I too, have read through Joy’s blog looking for the supposedly new ‘evidence’, and like WTKTT, I haven’t been able to find it yet. In addition, RTS says he spoke with a hybrid that actually participated in the burn. RTS, there certainly must be a lot more you can reveal about that burn while still keeping the confidence of that firefighter protected, eh?

      For quite some time, even though Sonny and Joy likely know that area better than anyone who’s ever been on this site, I have been wondering if POSSIBLY they could have misinterpreted something about the video (time,place, etc) as to it being relevant to the issue at hand. Over time, with their adamant protestations, along with the fact that they subsequently visited the site to confirm their observations, combined with Norb’s independent verification of that video, I have come to believe that some firing happened in that location.

      Aside from the so-far non-specific information that RTS says he has, a question I’ve been pondering is could the video have been taken the next day, while crews were cleaning-up fuels around structures and addressing un-burned islands?

      • Charlie says

        The Truth Will Always Remain Elusive :: reply–Yes we do know the area but it has taken time and some fire education and understanding that I have derived from this site and wild land fire people that have taken the tour and death route of the 19–that has been over months and finally even years. In some ways I wanted to divorce myself from the incident at Yarnell. However, because we were there and witnessed the actual fire, condition of the men and their most of their actions up until we departed the area about noon, I can see how important, not only the photos of over 1500 that Joy took but our experience transversing the terrain and watching a wild fire that was unstoppable by any means.

        No, we did not err in our seeing the drip torches being used in the Shine area. First off, we both recognized the rock foundation but even so, we had to actually go there to make sure it was that rock wall foundation thing. Even after doing that, we decided there might be a slim possibility of a twin foundation—the view had only included that rock thing and the dirt road forward of that location. So, we took the extra trouble of going to areas we knew that drip torches had been used in the Peeples Valley along dirt roads in that area. None of those roads there have foundations next the road and the area as well was different to that Shrine dirt road area. So we then were absolutely certain that there were no look alike situations that were even remotely close to that video and it was just as we identified it to be. Now we did not understand why they would be burning in that area at that time–why we were so amazed to witness the video.

        However as time has gone by and the many things I have learned from this site, you professionals, and some study, I would not at all been amazed at seeing the burn out in that area. I would likely have passed by the video in another frame of mind–yes that would be a proper and common thing to do just as we saw Ben Palm crew doing the burn out on the east side of Yarnell–no big thing. You would expect that type operation for the area. I believe Gary–that is what wild land fire fighters do–especially where proper–they burn and I certainly could understand a burn back in that area and would wonder why it were not done if I had any common sense about me.

        There were two reasons–one the fire was going away toward Peeples Valley all morning and was a diredtion that would not only be back stopped by the creek itself, it had a road and a granite boulder break that would protect the few houses on the north end of Yarnell including the U-stow it units. Plenty of time there to add retardant to the boulders to make it even more secure for the north end–which did happen later in the game.

        Second, because they were aware that the wind would change, they had to know it would head directly back toward the Weavers and the only real threat would be to the Helms (bomb and fire proof place and even considered a safe zone).

        So, there would be no sensible reason not to make that burn–and even the bulldozer had been unloaded to make a line along the north edge of Glen Isla although I had understood that action was denied. Somebody’s bulldozer knocked out a wall at the Walkers–left tracks and it did not matter but showed the intentions and perhaps that line was being done as planned before the knock out of that wall on the north side of Glen Isla.

        Now. one thing I noticed about Marsh–Joy will verify I am sure– Marsh was not stressed when we talked with him. Well Joy did the talking for the most part, I was just observing. If he had any stress, he certainly could hide it. He went up those mountains and back and forth across the fire edge in the boulders like a deer. But I could not say the same for the GMHS crew–The ones I noticed were trudging along–and my thoughts were at the time–not a crew I would want to be working with according to their looks. As a miner, if working with a tired helper or another miner and he was in that condition, you knew you would be doing the bulk of the work.

        Dr. Putnam walked the line they made and we saw what they had actually accomplished. It was in a rough and bouldery area just below where Marsh had earlier been crossing the burning fire edge. The fire had a scattered edge in that area due to the boulders and sparse vegetation. However, in the canyon to the north of where they cut line and above the old grader, especially on the south side of that canyon the manzanita growth was near equal to where the men were killed. The north side of that canyon (we had hiked that canyon to visit the old gold mines up there several hikes) was grassy and manzanita–either place was deadly if your were to get caught in it. So really the only place they were safe was where they were at and to go back up into the boulders where the ground had already burned out. The two track to the south was a deadly area when the wind reversed and they had to know that was to happen–surely looking at the thunder storms to the NE would have been enough to alarm the to depart the area asap or get to a safe area.

        Dr. Ted talks about the stress factor and certainly that is a top priority. I am certain he would add that certain individuals would not make good wild fire bosses and that screening should be done along with psychological testing before people are able to move up in jobs that require strict attention to the safety of their crews. For instance, I would not want a doper or a man with a history of doping directing my son and a crew in the type situations that we saw at Yarnell. You better have a solid individual that you know is not going to take undue risk with the lives of his men. I don’t care about the preacher types–some of them blame every thing to God and might say we can do stupid shit because God is looking over our shoulder. So no matter to bend rules and take chances. Like Honda and RTS indicated, it was known that Marsh was a high risk taker–sad that he did that with those young men under him. I am all for an asshole to kill himself due to his high risk taking, but when it comes to involving the innocent that are bullied or intentionally led into a death trap–then is when these issues must be addressed–Safety above Reputation or pleasing some one superior to the crew boss, then the boot before he pulls another Marsh.

        It would seem to be a crew boss or boss on any situation involving eminent danger and death situations that it would be mandatory to have many years of experience in the particular work. So then you would not only be a man that watches out and keeps the safety rules to protect his crew, but he also knows what will kill you. From talking with Dr Ted, I know he saved two men precisely because at that time he had years of experience when these two men were going to descend to a spot that would have killed them. They were adamant to go but he cursed them and took control. His actions saved the men because the area they were going to burned over and they would have been the greeters to the GMHS in Wild Fire Heaven. Whether they thanked him or not I do not know–but could you imagine those fellows leading a crew–the crew would have been dead right there. So I wonder if that was not a parallel to the GMHS deaths–someone leading that was gung-ho enough to do what those two were about to do but “God” stopped them –well Dr. Ted maybe was the guy that did.

        Maybe I can talk a little about stress. My first job as a contract miner was at Fierro, NM –to drive a raise up 150 ft. They needed an ore chute–see you drop ore into that chute from the higher level down to a trap door (they used hydraulic as most minds do) that is opened and closed as mine cars pass underneath. Their destination then is to the main shaft where the ore is dumped from the mine cars into a chute that leads into the ore bucket that is taken to the surface. (While I was there some Mexican guy got a rock stuck in the hydraulic loading chute and in his attempt to bar it out, he had his head as a replacement for the rock. Of course his head became a pancake. But none the less, I mentioned before, I had a raise blasted out and timbered up about 30 ft. when my stulls gave was and down I went with machine, timbers and all. I was young and had never before driven a raise so eventhough I was a good miner, this was different. One thing the fall did not bother me but that sudden stop in the muck pile did. The machine, timbers drill steel, and all landed beside me–had that machine landed on my head it would have looked somewhat like the guy that got his head in the chute. So I at that time felt some stress.and still remember it. My boots were stuck in the muck pile==fortunately I landed feet firs and fortunately the pile was soaked from my drilling above it. Needless to say, I got the next set of stulls in properly.

        But when I got shot in the back with the 12 guage lately, I did not feel the stress except at first I had though some one had shot me from a snipe. I was trying to think how I could get hold of my rifle to fire back but realized after a bit of laying out on the ground that it was my own gun that hit me. Well I was not feeling stress but was calling 911–I had accepted that this was the end of old Sonny but I had Charlie, Scooter, and Cowboy who were going to be left in the desert some 25 miles out without water, food and likely would not be found for weeks. So certainly I could have not bothered to phone 911 but I did so maybe those dogs that accidentally shot me actually saved me as well. ;And I had underestimated the abilities of modern medicine as well–they did the Jesus thing and supplied me with enough blood and another hole in my chest to keep that shot out lung from collapsing that I was able to pull through. So I do owe much gratitude to first responders, a helicopter pilot that got me to a trauma center and a bunch of doctors and nurses that brought me back. I did not like dying this time–the tunnel and the neon lights before the lights went out were damned weird. Where Jesus, God and Buddah and the Irish Gods and Goddesses were I have no idea–but would have been nice to have had them hanging around on that rabbit hunt. Did not see any of them in the tunnel either–I suspect that will be the next trip down the tunnel–down is up from anywhere on earth–at least after you pass thought the earth. Maybe all miners go down since that is what they do.

        • Gary Olson says

          Do you think there is any existence for our souls after death? You do have a PhD in Religion. Do you think there was something at the end of the tunnel light, or were those just the last neuronal firing of your dying brain 🧠 ? Just curious what you think since you has a near death experience?

      • Robert the Second says

        TTWARE,

        I posted: One of the FFs involved in this operation told me that they were directed by their agency supervisors to not discuss the YH Fire with anyone except the SA Investigation Team.”

        You posted: ” In addition, RTS says he spoke with a hybrid that actually participated in the burn. RTS, there certainly must be a lot more you can reveal about that burn while still keeping the confidence of that firefighter protected, eh? ”

        Nothing more to reveal at this point because, as I posted, they were directed to not discuss the YH Fire with anyone except the SA Investigation Team. I was not a member of the SAIT

        • The Truth Will Always Remain Elusive says

          RTS said previously:

          “There is and has been strong suggestive evidence of what Hybrid FFs were involved that firing operation that day. More to follow …”

          “One of the FFs involved in this operation told me that they were directed by their agency supervisors to not discuss the YH Fire with anyone except the SA Investigation Team.”

          Well, apparently he, or she, DID discuss the YH Fire with those other than the SAIT, because you know that he, or she, was involved with the firing operation.

          ********* “One of the FFs involved in this operation……” ********

    • Charlie says

      Answer to Gary–the easy living vs the pioneering–Not tough at all to live off grid– But Joy is a person as tough as one can be living as would the early pioneers and we did for some time–

      I moved up in life to a trailer and a F-150 4×4. Best truck I ever owned but damn it likes fuel with that big engine. I like the v 6 better that is in my chevy but it would be hell to put it in the ford. Anyway the 4×4 passes anything but the gas station and I like the coffee at Love’s.

      Someone is going to say Sonny is now trailer trash. But I know trailer trash and it ain’t me babe. I was seeing people wear those elongated boots with long points–I call them clown boots–Well you see people wearing the elongated slippers as well so be have both clown shoes and clown boots now. Those long clown boots with points ought to better at killing cock roaches in the corners that the older shorter models. I wouldn’t recommend them in a stirrup, especially on dismount you likely would get hung in a stirrup and horse dragging can be devastating.

      One thing is a good boot can hang you to a bar stool real nice –I have tried that myself and keeps you from falling backwards.

      Something that might be useful here would be puke troughs at bars. They have those in Mexico–I think if I had another Cantina to run, I would install them. That rot gut can get to your stomach.

      My biscuits are ok cooked in a cast iron covered skilled and I have a sweetpotatoe in tin foil inside the wood stove. I will add some butter and coconut oil and have some good old pioneer cuisine These biscuits aren’t half-bad..

      But I do believe my Dad was the real pioneer and prospector. Mom stayed with him 50 years until she passed–but had instructions to not be buried anywhere near him. Both sisters hated that life and my brother was not far behind in his thinking as well. Not for the weak hearted for sure or any good for a lady’s life.

      When I was a kid attending school I would smell like smoke since Mom was cooking breakfast on a camp fire. Actually that was a good deodorant since baths were scarce due to having to haul water. He would have been arrested for child neglect these days but I loved that life–It was free and I had all the desert and all the forest depending on where he was prospecting –Nothing like the freedom of the wild and someone to share it with.

      You learn to do things that way and I really think Thoreau was a man after my own heart even though he was English and down graded the Irish. He just did not know how much more intelligent we are not falling down before a queen. But of course each person should be seen by his merits, not his Englishness or Irishness. But I can be proud of my gene pool–they were survivors and still are despite the many hardships and invasions of the homeland.

      Guiness is one of the world’s best beers, if not the best. I keep a few in my ice box in case of emergency or should a thirsty fire figher or other show. I had three the day I was shot so in case I had gotten stuck, I had those for the long hike back to my abode. There is plenty of food value in those things and they can encourage you on a hike. And no, I was not drinking those and driving , in fact I had not drank anything for over a week–strictly energy packs for hiking. Some people take bottled water which is fine but no vitamins there.

  5. Joy A. Collura says

    https://www.investigativemedia.com/state-forestry-division-releases-new-yarnell-hill-fire-video/

    Sonny, refresher for you

    You are welcome.

    Sonny and I have been talking about this since 2013 but I refreshed a comment when this article came out.

    to this date not all videos have received a proper time but if you know of any Sonny post it under here.

    Sonny, you are correct identifying the scenario as you did down below.
    It is a pivotal point and best for us to leave it alone.
    It would only suffice in seeing MORE DATA disappear as we have all seen happen.
    Also remember Sonny to watch the videos on the sky darkening up from video to video

    I got permission from MR to make a new post/video on my page trying to make sense of recent comments here.
    I am in a project with them and I am on a deadline and now on a fast where the last thing I want to do is do this…rather sleep it out a few days but I will for you Sonny…Sonny, when exactly were you minute by minute during the periods of time when we could not see the fire or not seen fire or smoke?

    • Charlie says

      Disregard this post if I accidentally reposted. Having some trouble posting with my Verizon hot spot phone.

      Some trouble posting so will try again–my down loads and uploads –Verizon gives you a hot spot off your phone unlimited if you give them a hundred a month–but they are damn stingy wJoy, Thanks for this article from the Tucson Sentinel–interesting it mentions the 19 deaths of GMHS–http://www.tucsonsentinel.com/opinion/report/011119_mines_wall_op/forget-faux-crisis-immigration-westward-migration-caused-dangerous-problems-were-ignoring/

      It tells us about 5 murder convictions since 2003 and 3 old mine shaft deaths in Arizona since 2007 then goes on to say there were 19 Arizona deaths due to wild fire. It is an article more or less pointing out the Wall Of China idea that Trump is trumpeting so much about –something on the order of ridiculous. Well, he will put it up perhaps, but then what politician down the line will tear holes in it even if it goes up. (Are there Ladders over the Wall of China?) Well the Mexicans are ingenious at getting over and I imagine they will figure out a pogo stick to get them here and the farmers will cheer them on because without them Cherries will go from $5 a pound to $20 and lettuce from a $1 a head to $10 a head. Which might be a good idea since obesity has been pretty rampant–at least in the main part of Phoenix. But you will see when the population starts getting skinny then those holes will start increasing through the fence. There are not many Americans willing to do farm work at the menial wage those illegals do. And yes, the dope runner types in Mexico have created mayhem over there but you will not find those types working at menial jobs and when a few of those types do show up over here, they are pretty much in trouble right away and deported. Five murder convictions for as many illegals as we have here is minuscule compared to the general population number of murders. Am I opposed to illegal aliens coming here–Yes and no is that answer–I like to be able to buy cheap cherries and $1 lettuce.

      Joy once told me this country will eventually be overrun by the Mexican population–well latinos. As far as New Mexico, Arizona, Texas, California, Colorado and even Florida are concerned, that is already happening. Luna County here has 65% Latino population and I don’t know if you would count my Son’s and Daughter as Latino since they are half Mexican. And believe me, the Catholic religion does not like birth control so you can see families of 9 and more are not uncommon. Not only that more than half the families in these states that are legal have relatives in Mexico. Trump needs some education–he won’t get many votes in this Dona Anna County, nor in the El Paso area for sure. And yes, cherries come from Washington–plenty of illegals there as well. But rest assured most of them want to go back home to Mexico, etc. as soon as they can get enough dough together after sending those billions Trump says we are loosing that those menial wage earners send to their needy families in Mexico.

      Well I was not really going to address the Mexican Wall Issue–but being that we lost three Arizonans to falling off in abandoned mine shafts–Joy even fell in one for 15 ft when it had snowed and she might have slipped off in one near Congress–There are many there since Weaver areal produced over $250,000 in gold in less that two weeks from a placer find on part of that range–People are still digging the placer out there in large numbers–You can join a club for maybe $100 and get rights to be one of the diggers–some good nuggets are found.

      So yes, the metals have caused many an old prospector to dig a hole and if it did not pay, then he would abandon it. You might be the fourth to die in one of those holes, like Joy almost did by walking off into one. I think of Gary there since someone when I was stationed over there in the Desert with Joy drove a quad off into one– I think it was a kid was one of the three deaths. And if you look at the Quad deaths I can bet there are plenty more than just the 3 since 2007 that were due to abandoned mine shafts and tunnels.

      So we ought to look at the results of all these prospects–Over 90% of all mines–actually I would surmise about 98% before modern mining were found by the fool prospector looking to get rich off his prospecting. Only a small percent of the mines were ever discovered by the professionals such as geologists, mining engineers and the companies that use them. Certainly after they looked at a find, they could drill and block off ore deposits and then do the really big holes–For example Bisbee, Morenci and just about every open pit you can name was originally started by some old prospector chasing an ore outcrop by digging his dangerous hole in the ground. Mark Twain described the mine prospect as a hole in the ground and a liar on top. But that liar had caused the main way we have lived as what is called a civilized nation–sometimes a questionable statement seeing we had killed so many during the Civil War and now we want to wall ourselves in so there will be no escape, at least to the South on the next one.

      So that old miner is responsible for the finding of the Gold, Silver, Iron, Uranium, Tin, Copper, Lead, Antimony, Diatamatocious Earth, Clay. and just about every metal and non metal we live with today from bricks to automobiles to atomic power and atomic bombs. In fact, because of such individuals we can account for thousands of deaths due to auto accidents, hundreds of thousands of deaths due to atomic bombs that we laid out in Heroshima and Nagasaki, hundreds of thousands of deaths due to lead and copper poisoning from the bullet wounds of the Civil War, Indian Wars, Spanish War, First World War, Second World War, Iraq, Afghanistan, and so on. That tungesten light bulb and the tungsten bullet that pierces tanks are all attributable to some old miner producing that element. I worked for Union Carbide in the tungsten mines near Rachael Nevada–they produced a bunch of that element–well paid us miners to produce it and I stayed at the shack of the Old Prospector that found and sold that mine to Union Carbide for $40,000. You see he had first dug several rat holes–and Joy is my witness on this one, we saw the many tunnels dug back into the mountain–a terrible thing to look at perhaps to some, but none the less an absolute necessity if you want armour piercing bullets, strong railroad track, high strength steels for mining the stuff and those old tungsten filament light bulbs that are now outdated. So you see I am in a round about way one of the world’s worst — all those deaths some how connected to the prospecting and mining that we miners have done–so maybe we ought to be eliminated as prospectors that hunted these valuables. Hell I even mined turquoise and Agates and other gem stones–an evil some would say to adorn yourself with such niceties. If it is any meaning–pit bulls have killed more since 2007 than people falling off in abandoned shafts. Well hell, Charlie killed me and was not even a Pit Bull. And I was really dead–my son verified that when he looked at that shot gun wound yesterday==it is about healed up now since Oct 24 of last year–but I am back to life so maybe in this life I won’t be digging anymore holes except maybe my own 6 foot one.

      What has this to do with wild land fire fighting — well you men are worse killers than the illegal aliens–I mean you knock off 19 at a time at Yarnell alone not to mention other times. So those bosses there make the illegal murders look like pikers. And thanks Joy–You have the minute by minute times–your photos gave that–I know we were seeing the flare ups early on after 10 am that day and by 11:30 it was already totally out of hand but headed toward Peeples Valley. I did not know but had a hunch the wind would change–whatever time I topped the Weavers, then I could feel the change already coming albeit gentle there. We had almost an ominous calm something you always feel before a storm. Currents are different at different elevations and spots as we well know–but I had alarm bells all over me at the time, one reason I was so determined we get the hell out of there. Remember that ball of ribbon was right on the two track and I thought it was a meteorite at first until it partially fell apart and the bit of pink inside was exposed. You have a photo of that but do you have a photo of that PVC pipe that was in the center of the two track a few yards down from where you were sitting? That thing origionally white had scorched to brown and wiggled into a snake form–testimony of how bad the heat was even in that somewhat less dense area of vegetation on the side of the mountain.

      My opinion–I know–we are going to do our work whether it kills or not. However, be careful if you drive the outback of Arizona–there are plenty of prospect holes so the danger is high–especially if you are an ATV driver or hiker in the Arizona snow stormsith the speed allowed–not even snail pace–and a turtle will outrun a snail.

      • Charlie says

        Oh I forgot to mention the killer rattlesnakes-likely worse murderers than illegals. Even with snake boots–one that struck Joy cost her $48,000 in funds–killed her bank account and might have killed her had she not been a snake boot wearer. But let her talk about that experience. I wasn’t there but it was when she was going in one of those dreaded mine tunnels.

        • Charlie says

          I would have voted last election but I saw Trump as a Hitler type and Hillary as a liar–they balanced out as two people not suited for President of this great country at least in my eyes. Well I need glasses but that is being taken care of and so maybe I will begin to see the bright side on some things. (Has Trump bothered to talk to Bill Gates or any of those other financiers –some with nearly a trillion dollar worth and where 5 billion is chump change?) All things are possible–you do not really need to bleed the taxpayer and the wall is a fool’s idea in my opinion.

          Trump has proven himself–shutting down the government like a baby that pouts because Mama refuses to let him eat a piece of candy when he could get the money himself if he really wanted that wall. He wants those 5 plus billions to build a wall–but we all know once a government project is started you can double or triple the actual amount that will be spent. But the truth of it– political rhetoric.

          Perhaps it will give a few unemployed jobs for a while and keep out a few undesirables if that is possible. Meantime the South American hoards that are attempting to escape a horrible situation with starvation and the dangerous situations for families have been held back despite no Iron Curtain to keep them at bay. To the world we must look like greedy people who would spend billions to fence these refugees out, yet we do little if anything to alleviate their poverty situation of those people. Trump said we will make this country great again when I had never know when we had lost the title of being a Great Country. I think his definition of great is a Trump Tower in every city, including Moscow. How about we look great by helping those people with a billion or so?–they can relocate wherever–Mexico has plenty of open space–Just take a trip from El Paso to Chihuahua City and you will see–and go on to farther parts–plenty of room for more people.

          What I can say is 98% or more of those people are below the poverty level but are people that only want the chance to have work to support their families. They are willing to do the menial jobs that most Americans avoid –rather take food stamps and welfare checks –than do that farm work, etc that is available. Yes, like all immigrants–the Irish, the Italian, the Mexican and so on, they eventually establish themselves so that some take to education and get better jobs, become the Senators, Presidents, Scientists, etc. of this Already Great Country.

          In my estimation, Trump is a total narcissist. He is one that is not necessarily looking out for the country –especially those poor and downtrodden here and elsewhere– no compassion in that man, he is looking out for himself. It is all about aggrandizement for him. His TV program showed his cards way before coming President. He could send people away in a heart beat and still does–no consideration for that person or their future whatsoever. He may say, oh, so and so did a good job but it is easy to see he is irked to say anything good about someone he sends away. He is simply trying to stay smooth with his supporters.

          But what has this to do with fire fighting in the bush? Well leaders have personalities and personalities and ways of thinking are developed over time.
          Certainly genes have much to do with the way people do and think, but we can all be evaluated over the habits of what we do. On dangerous jobs such as fire fighting we can watch the boss–Is he a needless risk taker? Does he put the thought of taking care of his men above saving his own reputation. Is he a Trump type who would in his mind say If you do not do as I say and support everything I do including my visits to the whore house and lying almost daily–then out you go and preferably with a big kick in the ass.

          You see I estimated him to be a total narcissist. He would be the one to decide to take you down into that canyon of death and if you did not go along, then you would know you were headed for a big boot up the ass.

          Somehow I know how this thing at Yarnell was played out. Some here have mentioned the big ego thing–that that goes heavy when it comes to the narcissistic personality.

          Certainly it is a good thing to watch out and love yourself, but when you have that lack of concern for others then you do not belong in any position directing men–most especially when it comes to dangerous work such as wild land fire fighting..

          As for Marsh only two things were possible–

          He did know the danger of putting his men down in that dense canyon of manzanita with the fire about to change direction. And if that is the case and because he knew and broke every fire fighter rule that keeps men safe and alive–I would class him as a narcissist of a high order. He only cared about his own reputation and looks before the asses he was sniffing and the public.

          If he did not know the danger and results that had a very high probability of killing his men, then he was in the class of an imbecile and had no business whatsoever being a boss in a dangerous occupation with many mens lives at risk.

          Thirdly, he could have been drugged. Drugs affect the mind and if you do not believe that try some of even the prescribed drugs. You never know what trip these people will take or be on–yet outward appearances can look normal. I heard say he was an AA member–true or not I do not know–but seems Donut and he were doing something to recover from drug usage. AA reforming is a good thing–I used it when I had managed a half way house in Las Cruces. But the relapses are many and many go there still using and abusing–many under court order working the system to stay out of jail.

          I can tell you that if you stand on the two track and look at the situation and say you would take your men down there under the conditions and knowledge of that June 30 day of 2013, then I would say you certainly do not belong on a job as a wild land fire fighter boss. And that is not my opinion but about a hundred wild land fire fighter bosses and investigators that Joy and I hiked and became acquaintances and friends with.

          I think I would have made a good wild land fire fighter boss if my calling had been that way. I say that cause I had good instincts that day–I wanted us out of the danger zone and pronto. And in mining, I never allowed my helper to get into a dangerous spot needlessly. Everything is danger underground–but you do not go under a slab in hard rock without first barring down the dangerous slabs and sounding ground. A hollow sound means something is loose and either has to be barred down, bolted or stulls placed to keep the ground from burying you before your time. Sounding could not be done in Uranium at Ambrosia Lake since sandstone is throughout. So it is all wire mesh and you do not allow your helper beyond the mesh–and if that must be done going beyond, you risk your own ass, not your young helper.

          Thing about logging which is considered even more dangerous than mining–you are on your own 99% of the time. Mostly no one around and yet you could fall a tree on someone so you yell Timber as opposed to Fire in the Hole in the mines. So about the only one you can cause hurt to is yourself and that can come about by trying to loose a snag or ocassionally a dead limb will fall and take out the faller. That would be a good job for a Marsh type.

          In the conclusion, the only reason I can see that Marsh was not exposed for his terrible crime was that people want to maintain the FS, State FS facade as a perfect system. And of course, any reason and Trump might give Arizona a depleted allowance–he did not like the deceased McGovern who knew his real designs.

          Dangerous, non caring people do not belong in those wild land fire fighing jobs where they can mass murder a whole crew of 17. Well you might like to term it sacrifice a whole crew of 20 to the Wild Land Fire gods and goddesses.

          Happy trails and wild land fire fighting. It is a job you must love because you are woefully underpaid for the danger and hard work involved in fighting these wild fires.

          • Gary Olson says

            Sonny,

            You don’t have to visualize me riding on either an ATV or UTV erratically across the Arizona Desert and ending up at the bottom of a mineshaft. “A mans got to know his limitations.”

            https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=_VrFV5r8cs0

            I finally had to accept the fact I was never going to make a responsible ATV rider and I didn’t want to end up paralyzed, so I traded both of my machines (and their trailers) for a highly modified 1998 TJ, (photo to follow, because it’s important for everyone to know what my Jeeps look like). So…

            I will tell you however, what used to give me the Heebie Jeebies walking into a few of those old mines while I was with the BLM. And that is those old time miners placing wooden planks (and inches of dirt) over vertical mine shafts that are actually in the floor of horizontal shafts.

            I knew it was always possible for me to fall hundreds of feet straight down those old vertical shafts (from way back when) because the wooden planks had rotted and decayed with age. And that possibility, however remote, really gave me the creeps. It used to scare me…and I was fearless!

            • Gary Olson says

              And FYI, anybody who wants me to go into any mine shaft for any reason would have to put a gun to my head and make me believe they were going to blow my brains 🧠 out if I didn’t (other than being required to do so fir the job). That is how bad those old mines terrified me.

      • Robert the Second says

        The Tucson Sentinel article on immigration. abandoned mines, and overgrown forests does mention the epic June 30, 2013, YH Fire, however, I do not understand the connection.

        ( http://www.tucsonsentinel.com/opinion/report/011119_mines_wall_op/forget-faux-crisis-immigration-westward-migration-caused-dangerous-problems-were-ignoring/ )

        My favorite is this quote from the new USFS Fire Director: “The raging flames create what new U.S. Forest Service Director Vicki Chritiansen calls “hurricane fires.” Say what – hurricane fires?

        I think this woman is clearly uneducated in basic wildland fire weather and fire behavior because there are NO forest fires during hurricanes, among nature’s most powerful and destructive phenomena, during soaking rains and surges.

        Weeks afterwards, yes, due to the desiccation of the wildland fuels from the salt water surges but NOT during a hurricane. I have never heard that phrase before.

        My favorite is this quote from the new USFS Fire Director: “The raging flames create what new U.S. Forest Service Director Vicki Chritiansen calls “hurricane fires.” Say what – hurricane fires?

        I think this woman is clearly uneducated in basic wildland fire weather and fire behavior because there are NO forest fires during hurricanes, among nature’s most powerful and destructive phenomena, during soaking rains and surges.

        Weeks afterwards, yes, due to the desiccation of the wildland fuels from the salt water surges but NOT during a hurricane. I have never heard that phrase before.

        • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

          I think she just meant ‘size’ and ‘intensity’ and whatnot… not ‘precipitation levels’.

          You know… like “Not just run-of-the-mill normal-size fire storms anymore… but really BIG ones… more like ‘hurricane’ size storms”.

          ( Captain obvious / over and out )

        • Charlie says

          Could have used a hurricane on the 30th of June–all that water might have done a better job than the Retardant. Yeah I think a strange analogy–but how fast did that fire really move up that funnel canyon and up the side of the Weavers? The FS had 11 mph and I wonder how they got that figure. When Brandon describes his egress it was more like the fire storm was outrunning his vehicle. I would think though Brandon had a lot less experience with wild fires than the men who spent years on the wild fire lines throughout the country. Is 11 mph a sensible estimate in 20-30 mph winds with 45mph gusts? This of course is considering the density of manzanita and other forage at Yarnell with high day heat -95 F degree and higher–and dehydrated bushes.

          Many possibilities but the more I understand about it the more I see the faulty idea of making a city fire fighter into a wild land fighter who believes he can tackle a wild land fire to protect a structure in those conditions by waving his Pulaski at it.

          The State owes those loved ones plenty more compensation–their livelihoods .were destroyed due to the foolish practices of allowing those men to become wild land fire fighters under their supervision (FS and whoever the band leaders were in the State Bureaucratic System). They should as a start pay those spouses the basic wage for the wild land fire fighter for the rest of their lives and especially until their children become of age. That is a pinch penny state that does not mind spending millions on wild fire retardant that was almost totally useless in the Yarnell incident, yet when it comes to compensation of those they killed by their faulty methods–they balk like the jack asses they are. Yes you can call the men heroes and blame Marsh and Steed but who but the State allowed such men to rule over those that had no blame in this. How the people of Arizona go along with the injustice done to the loved ones I can not understand. Yet the cover up and BS is easily understood from the standpoint of the motives that the FS and State officials had–Keep the government money flowing their way and keep the reputations squeaky clean in front of the Public. It doesn’t take a professor to understand the motives–but they ought to have a professor of Psychology and Psychiatry to start evaluating the hiring practices and propensity of these agencies to put people in deadly situations when it is absolutely unnecessary.

          FBI uses such people (Psychiatrists and Psychologists) to help track down criminals–FS and State people in the fire industry need them to keep the narcissists at bay in their work. The Yarnell debacle put an exclamation mark on that fact.

  6. Bob Powers says

    Based on all the info so far I am stuck with one observation.
    The time frame of the burn out if there was one on the shrine area was after the big run into Yarnell before the GM crew left their rest area. My conclusion would be that any burn out after that run would not affect the flame front that ran at the crew.
    Correct me if I am not seeing something that has been posted.
    I would believe that some one could have fired the road when they had the wind to their back. This would have been a fire out and not a Back Fire. This would keep the fire from running back and crossing the road should the wind shift. But we still have no solid proof of that either.

    • Charlie says

      Yes Bob makes sense since the road was there–However then there should have been a fire out as you term it early on in that area since the winds were away from Yarnell even early morning from the Shrine area. ;They were headed in a NE direction which means that a fire out situation would have been good up that canyon to protect both Yarnell and Glen Isla. I say this because I have hiked the area both with Joy and alone. Now with their constant meteorological reports (every 30 minutes?) they would have known to expect a wind reversal. However, what they would not expect would be some ill informed Bosses to take their men down in a canyon above them with no look out, no escape route, in the densest of manzanita, and according to what was said if it can be believed–without 30 minutes of communication to their whereabouts. So even if a burn out did catch those men, nothing at all for fault could go their way. It was the proper and exact thing that should have and would have been done at the time to protect Yarnell and Glen Isla.

      Still it goes to show that details like that were redacted so the story line would keep any influence that might taint the reputation of the fire managers as hidden or unknown. The idea seems to be allow only information that makes the situation look to be a good heroic effort.

      Perhaps heroic alright, but ill managed and white washed.

      While I am on this tack, I think someone should also look into records of how much retardant was really dumped. But that would take a FBI or someone really astute in uncovering fraud and theft. The way the investigation was handled and misinformation distributed I can see how it is possible that someone is faking records and making big money. It did not seem that 500,000 gallons of retardant could be the tally–that is a lot of Jumbo Jet Loads and retardant at 2.50 to 3.50 a gallon runs into some serious money. Anyway it would be good just to make sure people that are hiding and redacting also get a damn good look at their financial practices of handling government money–cart Blanche I might add. I can remember some firms actually charging the government $900 for a claw hammer.

      But I will leave that to people involved since mine is only conjecture. Is anyone making too many trips to France and especially Switzerland, driving Tesla’s and living the high life way beyond the fire fighter bosses pay rating and involved in the retardant business? I say it is worth a look and might save the taxpayer some big bucks

      . I understand whistle blowers can take notice on that one since proof of government theft pays a whopping 15%–and that could be in the millions. But you better have guts.

      • Charlie says

        Josh Eells, Rolling Stone editor, was one of the people Joy and I hiked though Harper Canyon and that began behind Phil’s Storage Units on the North end of Yarnell. Directly behind the units are some dense vegetation, then the boulder area and after the boulder area were burned out areas in grassland and heavy manzanita. Some of the manzanita. We had taken the longest route of any trip with Josh and on that hike and in that area beyond the boulder mountain were a few places that mazanita did not get burned out. To demonstrate to Josh the severity of going through that manzanita, I took him right through some of the patches. Those were relatively short distances of unburned brush (maybe 50 yards). Perhaps not the proper thing to do for someone not prepared for mountain hikes but he got a good understanding of the difficulty and stupidity to attempt once he saw where the GMHS would do so and the actual photos Joy had shot early the morning of their demise in that death canyon next Helms Ranch.

        He wrote a lengthy article and publised it –Joy might give the date on that.

        • Bob Powers says

          We have all known the fire was poorly Managed. Planning a burnout early seams to be not in any ones mind. When the emergency hit that would have been the time a crew Engine or hand may have decided to protect what they had the ability to as the moved down and out the road. This maneuver still has a lot of problems not addressed. The investigation also said nothing about it. This whole thing was a mess from beginning to end.

          My training and Idea of a escape route was no where near what GM did. I am one of those that would never have left the burn. I could have also sited a lot of reasons why to any supervisor that thought other wise.

          • Robert the Second says

            Based on all the info so far I also am stuck with one observation and it’s based on what Joy has been posting on this IM site from the start. There was a firing operation in the Sesame Street and Shrine Corridor.
            .
            The time frame of the firing operation burn out – AND THERE WAS ONE – was in the Shrine area. This was the big fire run into Yarnell as the GMHS left their rest area without posting a required Lookout or advising Air Attack of their intentions.

            It is true that any burn out after that firing operation run would not affect the flame front that ran at the GMHS.

            The Sesame Street and Shrine Corridor firing operation has been posted here from the beginning. Here is former Yarnell Fire Chief Pete Anderson stating that was the exact purpose of the Sesame Street and Shrine Corridor Fire / Fuel Break.

            “Former Yarnell Hill Fire Chief Peter Andersen Interview Oct. 8, 2013”
            ( https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UFObh-fNOl8 )

            We do have solid proof of that in several forums. There are the several witnesses that saw the Yarnell Library video who have posted here and Woodsman, who witnessed it on YouTube until it was pulled.

            There are also the numerous separate and distinct smoke columns from various contributors to Joy’s website ( http://www.yarnellhillfirerevelations.com ) strongly suggesting a progressive firing operation.

            Thank you for staying the course Joy and continuing to reveal the truth about the epic human failure of the June 30, 2013, Yarnell Hill Fire. I agree with Joy’s choice to reveal her public record evidence as she sees fit. If you’re not satisfied with what she has been doing, then file your own Public Records Requests and FOIA Requests.

            And thank you Sonny for being there with Joy that June 2013 weekend and all your insightful comments recently

            • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

              Reply to Robert the Second ( RTS ) post on
              January 14, 2019 at 3:56 pm

              >> RTS said…
              >>
              >> There was a firing operation in the
              >> Sesame Street and Shrine Corridor
              >>
              >> ( snip )
              >>
              >> The Sesame Street and Shrine Corridor firing
              >> operation has been posted here from the beginning.
              >>
              >> ( snip )

              Just to be clear… ( and in case anyone is confused now )…

              When you use this ‘corridor’ phrase…

              Sesame Street and Shrine Corridor

              …you are referring to the actual entire dozer-line that was pushed FROM the ‘Sesame’ clearing area, N/NE over TO the Shrine Youth Camp area…. correct?

                • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

                  Thanks for clearing that up, once and for all.

                  And just so everyone understands where that puts us now.

                  That is an entirely different ‘theory’ than the scenario supposedly seen in the ‘video’ that disappeared, which only appeared to show 2 FFs doing some kind of manual burnout just 100 yards west of where the Shrine Road pavement ends.

                  You are talking now about a much larger, lengthier and time-consuming operation.

                  The Blue Ridge Hotshots are the only ones known to have EVER been working ( on foot ) out on that dozer-line.

                  Are you saying you now believe they have ALL been liars… in ALL of their testimony and Unit Logs… and they really did set fire to that dozer-line that day?

                  • Robert the Second says

                    WTKTT,

                    You posted: “And just so everyone understands where that puts us now.”

                    What I posted along with Joy and Sonny – the June 30, 2013, weekend eyewitnesses, from the beginning of this IM website, along with Norb and Woodsman have been holding this line.

                    “That is an entirely different ‘theory’ than the scenario supposedly seen in the ‘video’ that disappeared, which only appeared to show 2 FFs doing some kind of manual burnout just 100 yards west of where the Shrine Road pavement ends.”

                    It is not a “theory” and what appeared in the video that disappeared, like so many other YH Fire pieces of evidence, is factual. Just because these witnesses speak of only seeing 2 FFs in the video does not preclude there being more in the firing operation. It is only what was seen and remembered in the video as well as where it allegedly “ended” in the video.

                    “You are talking now about a much larger, lengthier and time-consuming operation.”

                    EXACTLY! However, it is not just now, it’s been going on for a while, here and on Joy’s website ( http://www.yarnellhillfirerevelations.com )

                    “The Blue Ridge Hotshots are the only ones known to have EVER been working ( on foot ) out on that dozer-line.”

                    The BRHS are the only ones officially SAIT-SAIR “known” to have been working out on the dozer line.
                    Working on the dozer line and engaging in a firing operation in that area are two different operations.

                    “Are you saying you now believe they have ALL been liars… in ALL of their testimony and Unit Logs… and they really did set fire to that dozer-line that day?”

                    Where is it posted that I believe “they have all been LIARS”? First off, who is “they”?

                    Everywhere in the BRHS unit logs and notes and statements, it clearly mentions otherwise.

                    A visit to Joy’s post will help. “Part Two – Who Do We Continue to Distinguish And Read About as the Likely Participants in the Undeniable Sesame to Shrine Corridor Fuel / Fire Break Possible Firing Operation?”
                    (https://www.yarnellhillfirerevelations.com/single-post/2018/08/18/Part-2-of-Who-Do-We-Continue-to-Distinguish-And-Read-About-as-the-Likely-Participants-in-the-Undeniable-Sesame-to-Shrine-Corridor-Fuel-Fire-Break-Possible-Firing-Operation)

                    There is and has been strong suggestive evidence of what Hybrid FFs were involved that firing operation that day. More to follow …

                    One of the FFs involved in this operation told me that they were directed by their agency supervisors to not discuss the YH Fire with anyone except the SA Investigation Team.

            • Woodsman says

              Yep,

              The extensive firing operations that occurred on the Yarnell fire are clear & obvious. I disagree: I’m of the opinion that a portion of these purposeful set fires for suppression did impact GM. The alignment of the topography and changes in weather is more clear to me each day. I will say after review of WTKTT latest flyover simulation, and seeing the death bowl in that perspective: what in the everloving FRICK must they have been thinking? Mother of God, the fire that rolled up that canyon had to have been absolutely horrific! Not even close to survivable.

              Back to rebuilding my saws. It’s what I do in the snow season…i love the smell of 2-stroke in the morning. Smells like victory

            • Charlie says

              RTS speaks loud and clear–He has seen the area in question and being in this business of wild land fire fighting and being a wild land fire fighting boss and instructor until such time as he retired, He would know exactly whether a burn back would be in order at the Shrine–someone whose input would rate a 10 and someone you would stand up and listen to with respect to his knowledge and experience–yet this man is one the State and FS would deny access to records so that he has had to sue to get those. Now does that not smell like rotten fish?

              My own estimation (two cents worth since I am only a concerned citizen) would be absolutely–the winds never threatened Glen Isla or Yarnell in the morning—and in fact would have been away from both towns and the reversal direction expected was also away from Yarnell and Glen Isla.

              Take the example of Ben Palm during the Tenderfoot Wildfire just a couple years later that started about two miles as the Crow flies SE of Yarnell–over that mountain behind the East side of Yarnell and down the canyon road that leads to Stanton. That whole east side of the mountain abutting Yarnell was dense manzanita. The winds were South Eastwardly so the fire was already directing the fire toward the extension of the Weavers on the East side of Stanton. In other words it was blowing away from Yarnell and the prevailing winds were continuing as they always do-more or less toward the SE. With no thunderstorms treatening in the East or SE, the winds would continue their usual diredtion for that area, and they did for a solid week as I remember. Well I was living there and refused to leave during that fire so I know they never changed direction for a long time. Yet Ben Palm almost immediately started a long burn along the east edge of Yarnell proper–Joy was there taking photos again so there is a proof record of that one.

              So yes, I would have agreed with Mr. Palm–He did not save Yarnell like the papers touted but it made him look good and the forest service backing him for the media–misinformed as they were since that fire would have continued its direction away from Yarnell and eventually burned itself out–there is relatively barren desert at that end of the Weavers. And if it turned more Eastwardly then some ranches toward Wagon Wheel might have been threatened. Stanton proper was a safe area–well surrounded by that type desert.

              The good thing was that Ben Palm set an example what Gary did mention–that is what we wild land fire fighters do–burn. In fact, to my estimation that is probably primary above cutting line. Cutting line as far as I can see will keep the fire from spreading if it is going away from you or has no wind to effect its direction. But the perhaps approximately 5 mph wind and then the 20-30 mph reversal meant that line cutting in front of such a monster would have nil effect on even retarding the fire. In the movies you can slay with your sword the dozen headed dragon that towers the size of the Eiffel but in real life, unless you have invented the bazooka, forget it.

              So Ben did some good because not only did we get an example of how the wild land fire fighting crew does things (burn backs fast), he did a good job of clearing the brush from that mountainside–yet I do not know where his particular fire starting effort continued too since it actually started a separate fire that was more north to the origional one and would have covered an entirely different zone than that one something or someone started two miles to the SE in that canyon. He did burn a couple sheds–but the damage was minimal.

              The Jumbo did a good job on that one since they laid the retardant almost perfectly along his back burn so you could see that red band right next to dwellings all along the east side of Yarnell proper. It put out his back burn going back into Yarnell but the burn back up the mountain was quite successful at continuing toward Wagoner.

              Amount of retardant used on the Tenderfoot ordeal, I have no idea. I had heard it was about the same as the first fire–since Yarnell would not have been the only target for retardant drops in that fire. The good thing was that the winds were approximately in the 5mph range so perhaps that retardant worked in the more desert like areas where it was due to burn out.

    • Charlie says

      It would be hard to define someone’s particular idea of what they had seen some five years before. Certainly one person could describe that with few trees since there were bare spots in the area and describing a scene, especially 5 years later can be hazardous. What cinched our memories were the fact that we actually went there. Of course since then the area was burned out and new vegetation appeared. The rock foundation is however still there.

      It would be my opinion that people seeing the work of the drip torch in the area were looking at what was happening but not necessarily registering the vegetation, trees and etc.

      What is irksome is the fact that video was removed. Another thing about the same time we tried to retrieve the official document that restricted the half section including the death canyon on June 16–about two weeks before the actual fire happened. That was on a Forest Service Website found either by Joy or she would know who. She showed me the document and I remember that she took the time to point out the official seal of the State or Forest Service–I know it looked very official and was signed below by some high rated person who could take such action. Why those two documents would be redacted alerted us to the fact that there was likely some reason these were being hidden. It would be nice to have that person that sealed and signed the document on the Congressional Stand to see his reasons. My own conclusion was there was a purpose to destroy anything that might bring a bad light on the actions of the FS and others managing the Yarnell fire. When it comes down to it, omission of facts helped create the scene that the Managers of that Fire wanted to present to the public. So far they have pretty much presented the situation the way they planned and the public is pretty well happy and easy to please–yet it had not presented the public with the real story.

      There is more to the proof of a burn back –likely we will even get the times it was done but because Joy can not jeopardize some careers, those people will have to come forward themselves. They may never except in private meetings with people they know–or again they may in time–especially if they leave the FS show, tell what they know. The burn information is valid but we just do not have the details and in my personal case only the vision of those torches being used along that dirt road above the Shrine.

    • Charlie says

      Certain one thing, Joy has it down and from personal interviews. I know she will have a positive record of things and if she had to go under oath at a Congressional hearing, she would come forth with facts that could only be forced out of her by that type legal method and such that it could not hurt the careers of certain people. Once it goes before Congress then they would dare not punish people for speaking the truth and of course no one would want prison time for presenting lies to Congressional investigations.

      I do hope the people working to get it before Congress can make that happen.

            • Joy A Collura says

              I have never said trust me Gary

              I have said

              Lives Matter…Safety Matters and others have more data

              I also come here and said a comment that ended in a court room.
              Has wtktt? or you? and it was a dumb comment that ended up in court…you wrote harsher stuff then me.

              Mic dropped.

                • Gary Olson says

                  You know…other than writing my 📖 📚, because that bores me also. I need to go out and kill something, except I abhor violence. I think I’ll buy a dog. I miss my dog.

                  Although you are impressing the hell out of me with all of these classes you’re taking. You are going to end up to be quite the FIRE expert…either that or have a psychotic breakdown and I think it’s 50/50 right now? Or maybe 49/51 in favor of the psychotic episode?

                    • Gary Olson says

                      Especially check out the beautiful Bell 205…man I love all of the variants of the Bell Iroquois Huey! Wop…wop…wop!

                    • Gary Olson says

                      Come to ALASKA, my birthplace…The Land Of The Midnight Sun and The Last Frontier with me!

                    • Gary Olson says

                      Although I think when I shot this video, CALFIRE was still California Division Of Forestry. You can tell how old it is because the video quality is so poor (2009).

                    • Gary Olson says

                      Oh…and one more thing. I wasn’t born in the Great State Of Alaska…I was born in the U.S. Territory of Alaska.

                      And no…I didnt want to work on my book tonight. So….

                      And my York’s mix taught that Lab to dive for rocks too, but he never got very good at it, but he thought he was supposed to do it. It was pretty funny.

                    • Gary Olson says

                      I mean…everyone or almost everyone in the Yavapai County Cosa Nostra FIRE culture tried to sell the Yarnell Hill Disaster as sometimes bad things happen while fighting wildfires. And we just have to accept that as a fact of life and move on as best we can. I also might add they were very successful is selling what I call the Big Lie to almost everyone. I still remember the press release and explanation that was put out of Senator McCain’s office that essentially repeated that lie.

                      I lack the vocabulary to adequately express just how far from reality I know that lie is from the truth.

                      What happened to the Granite Mountain Hotshots was anything but just one more bad thing that can happen to anyone at any time while fighting a wildfire because it is an inherently dangerous job and the fire just unexpectedly “blew up.”

                      As I have written before…what happened to the crew on the YHF was so far off the chart in our known universe, it literally required everyone to completely discard their “Oh Shit, Oh Dear, Fuck Me O’Meters” and construct completely new ones from scratch to use to gauge not only that fire, but what is now within the realm of possibility of happening again because we were already catastrophically proven wrong once.

                      That event was just that far from anything that should ever have been even remotely within the possibilities of what could happen to a hotshot crew ever. in a worse case scenario. Even decades in the past all of the way back to the first hotshot disaster fire in history. And although the Loop Disaster of 1966 and the deaths of 12 El Cariso Hotshots was really bad…it wasn’t nearly as bad as what happened on the GMIHC on the Yarnell Hill Disaster.

                    • Gary Olson says

                      Well…darn it. This comment should have been posted at the bottom of the thread below because now it is out of context…just FYI.

                    • Gary Olson says

                      And at the risk of repeating myself some more, which by the way I think is okay just as long as they repeat the Big Lie, the Loop Disaster was completely understandable and easily explained from the moment it happened.

                      Understanding the deaths of the 12 El Cariso Hotshots is as simple as looking at it as though it is a Paint By The Numbers picture and simply following the numerical values in their proper linear sequence.

                      Simply start with 1 and then draw a line to 2, and repeat until you get to the number with the highest value and that completes the picture that explains why those 12 hotshots were burned alive.

                      There just isn’t any numbers, or picture, or anything else to explain the deaths of the GMIHC on the Yarnell Hill Fire of 2013.

                      Nothing I know for a fact makes any sense to me so I am left grasping at mere theories to explain what happened and why…however implausible those theories are. Which is frustrating to me to say the least and quite possibly has endangered, and will continue to endanger other hotshots until the truth…all of it, is known and corrective training is subsequently developed based on what the real malfunction was.

                      Because that is exactly what happened, a precision and highly developed wildland firefighting machine (although RTS and Bob hate it when I talk this way) made up of 20 individuals (there…I fixed it) experienced a catastrophic malfunction and it was completely destroyed along with the lives of 19 of those individuals.

                  • Joy A. Collura says

                    Gary felt- I think I’ll buy a dog. I miss my dog.

                    Sonny has free husky german shepherd pups- perfect timing 😉

                    Again…too many died in the first annual of the tragedy locally and I think about the kids and the elders

                    I miss them.

                    Woodsman last Fall and his wisdom stuck with me to keep at it but you all fail to get – I follow Him not me or others. so the information comes at His Will and Ways not my own.

                    As for you feel I have something tangible that will change history…no but there is others that do. that is why I keep publicly and privately sharing – All I could do is the same as Sonny – speak about it but out of respect of where this person is with their case journey we stay quiet but yes there is a huge area still to be shown but hello folks…MacKenzie’s video was not the original….Bob Brandon’s evidence never made it to a report but because of another WF I will be making posts about the folks in the Shrine area soon. I was told by M.R. to enjoy my weekend and take a break from that project and deadline I am on and its snowing here and I am all alone to do that so I will work on a post…may start with Jerry or Bob or Paul Morin…yet I am in a fast so if God wants me to not I will not. I have disobeyed before and never goes well.

                    Yes I do record time to time but not always
                    depends where I am…always have with Holly because what people told me behind the scenes and I did with Fernanda and Elizabeth only because what was fed to me so yes and my encounters with Amanda since court. I did not post or share them with anyone just for my own record keeping so they cannot say I said something I did not state.

                    I did find it funny that to share five years later on YH Fire as keynote “speakers” and then to have Brad Mayhew interrupt cost the organization $ two grand $ and I have this blog freely sharing yet is not free to run it or to gain these records and interviews ( http://www.yarnellhillfirerevelations.com ) sharing documents. I am not making a book or movie which in the end these speakers are doing just that. I think making any monies on the tragedy is beyond messed up.

                    You have your opinion which matches many along with people do not like scripture on my blog. The scriptures stays and I will as God wants it present the posts.

                    You are not alone. One lady in CA wanted to hurt my throat based on yours and my discussions on IM yet you were not included in throat part as much as me. You get a golden card. I have got the brunt of more shit than you I am sure of it. Actually some of the heaviness I got was based on your comments not my own. Plus you do not live here – I do.
                    I at least let the kids and elders know there is more and I feel okay because all my days I am doing something for YH Fire…are you every day

                    I am.

                    I have not seen my family in awhile – been at conferences after conferences and I look forward to hugging my own dog so I know what you mean on missing your dog.

                    • Gary Olson says

                      Joy,

                      You know how much it hurts when you are so harsh with me because I love and respect you so much!

                      And I’m pretty sure I have never taken offense to your use of either scripture or invoking the name of Jesus Christ Our Lord and Savior…God Bless You and the United States Of America!

                      Now…you know how much I like to tease you, I don’t know why you keep falling for it? Bob P and RTS figured out the only reason I gave them a hard time was because I loved and respected them so much. Well, at least Bob P,, RTS…not so much because you know…he is a 🍆 👴🏻.

                      And as far as my smart mouth goes for the Yavapai County FIRE Cabal….I did live in Flagstaff for the first two or three years of this rodeo, but you’re right…I don’t live in that bed of snakes like you do. So I can talk big. I often can’t even find myself much less somebody else finding me to either serve me with papers or you know…hurt me. I’m pretty sure there are some people who would like to hurt both of us. I have always cautioned you to be careful and if I were you, I would definitely be much more hesitant to take a stand like you have and continue to do.

                      They even have the Sheriffs Office in their Syndicate…I think? Or at least the SO sure seemed to conspire and aide and abet with them to make a real cluster fuck amateur hour with their bogus death investigation of the crew, Dirty…Dirty…Dirty, Shame…Shame…Shame!

                      And you know I was just kidding about the psychotic episode, you really are impressing me with your dedication and enthusiasm. It’s too bad you couldn’t get a do over in life because you would have made a pretty darn good hotshot. I always liked to have better people than me on my crews because they made me look so much better of a crew boss than I was…way better.

                      Now…chin up young lady and go get ‘em! Actually check that…you still live too close to the inbred mountain hillbilly crackers known as the Yavapai County Cosa Nostra run by the Boss of Bosses Amanda Beno Marsh Whatever Her New Name Is who thought nothing of manipulating and abusing the Yavapai County Court System to mess with you just like she manipulates and abuses everything in her world because Yavapai County (centered in Prescott) is HER world, she just lets other people live in it as long as they follow her edicts and commands.

                      And thanks for the tip on where I can get a good dog from Sonny, but I saw on my favorite part of SNL (the only part worth watching now…SNL died with John Belushi and Gilda Radner, not to mention the other former greats who moved on like Jane Curtain, Bill Murray, Tina Fey, Will Ferrell, Dan Aykroyd, Chevy Chase, and Maya Rudolph etc. I just don’t get most of the humor nowadays. They lost me at least one generation ago, I mean…the Coneheads from France…were hilarious! But forgive me…I digress) which is Weekend Update, that like my dog Una taught Barkley the big lab puppy to dive for rocks, Sonny’s dogs have a culture of researching, “How to shoot a gun” on the Internet and I’m not Irish, so…

                      And I don’t know why some lady from California would be giving you a hard time about your throat, or my throat, or somebody’s throat…you really lost me in that one?

                      I just don’t really buy into the whole Shrine backfire thing but you do and it seems like The Woodsman does as well, not to mention HAL 9000 saying he thinks something happened. So…we have a big tent here on IM for lots of different opinions and enthusiasticaaly discussing (arguing) things back and forth is how we have historically vetted a lot of different scenarios. So…I have an open mind and your guess on a lot of the still unanswered questions are as good as mine.

                      And if it is true…it would explain so much of the lying and concealing the truth which does defy logic unless they are doing it just to keep in practice because they have a historical culture of coverups and CYA.

                      So…if you prove it in the end, I will be the first one to say I got it wrong. I don’t mind being wrong in the short term just as long as we do our best to get it right for the historical record which I am proud to say is here on IM.

                      Because like The Woodsman said, I still can’t come to terms with the fact and accept that we lost an entire hotshot crew (you know…except for Sad Sack getting lucky). on the Yarnell Hill Fire. Not in this day and age of truly professional, organized, staffed, crews with uniform standards and Standard Operating Procedures with the emphasis on safety and a much greater understanding of FIRE behavior, etc.

                      I remain DUMBFOUNDED to this day. I was sure so the news got it all wrong on the evening of June 30, 2013. I was so sure that could not possibly have happened…not in our worst nightmare. Right up until the minute our worst nightmare became our reality.

                    • Gary Olson says

                      The Internet has been down in this canyon in the middle of Nowhere, Oregon, I live in since the first of the month (this is an iPad on my cell service) and if it ever comes back up, I will update my website with some more photos (when I catch up on my backlog of posts from my primary computer) which will include our crews tribute to the Coneheads,..Beldar, Prymaat and their daughter Connie from the planet Remulak who got stranded in New Jersey during a recon mission…hilarious.

                      I really like the fact I have so many photos to illustrate what it was like to be on a hotshot crew and fight FIRE back in my day. When I collected thise photos over the years, I never imagined (just as no one else did either…I think?) that I would ever be living in a world of cheap, high speed computers, software, peripherals, websites, blogs, and the internet in general. It’s a brave new world where the opinions of people like Joy and I can be expressed to people all over the world, who are only a couple of clicks on a computer mouse away. Which is all really weird and a little scary.

                    • Gary Olson says

                      Oh…and one more thing. I don’t want anyone to feel sorry for me because I am getting a great off season rate at a Three Star resort along the Rogue River and it is really gorgeous here except the WiFi Internet here sucks on a good day.

                      I hope I haven’t given away my location for you know…anyone who may be looking for me. 🤔

                    • Gary Olson says

                      I mean…in our culture, if you make it to SN you are a real celebrity.

                      I just think surviving a shotgun blast through your back which comes out your chest…as you literally watch fragments of your body mixed in with shotgun pellets fly away from you…is really the hard way to make it on SNL.

                      What an amazing story of survival!

                    • Gary Olson says

                      And besides that, you generally can’t own a German Shepherd unless you live off the grid or at least own your own home and quite possibly fail to inform your insurance company you own one of the breeds they refuse to underwrite…so you on on your own if something bad happens and you run the risk of having your policy cancelled if they find out you own one of the prohibited breeds.

                      I have been living off the reservation for some time now, but I’m not ready to live off the grid. I’m just not as tough as you and Sonny are. Too much good living for far too long. I got spoiled…and I became weak. I don’t want to even find out what Rattlesnake tastes like….even if it dies taste like 🐓

                    • Charlie says

                      Not tough at all to live off grid– But Joy is a person as tough as one can be living as would the early pioneers and we did for some time–

                      I moved up in life to a trailer and a F-150 4×4. Best truck I ever owned but damn it likes fuel with that big engine. I like the v 6 better that is in my chevy but it would be hell to put it in the ford. Anyway the 4×4 passes anything but the gas station and I like the coffee at Love’s.

                      Someone is going to say Sonny is now trailer trash. But I know trailer trash and it ain’t me babe. I was seeing people wear those elongated boots with long points–I call them clown boots–Well you see people wearing the elongated slippers as well so be have both clown shoes and clown boots now. Those long clown boots with points ought to better at killing cock roaches in the corners that the older shorter models. I wouldn’t recommend them in a stirrup, especially on dismount you likely would get hung in a stirrup and horse dragging can be devastating.

                      One thing is a good boot can hang you to a bar stool real nice –I have tried that myself and keeps you from falling backwards.

                      Something that might be useful here would be puke troughs at bars. They have those in Mexico–I think if I had another Cantina to run, I would install them. That rot gut can get to your stomach.

                      My biscuits are ok cooked in a cast iron covered skilled and I have a sweetpotatoe in tin foil inside the wood stove. I will add some butter and coconut oil and have some good old pioneer cuisine These biscuits aren’t half-bad..

                      But I do believe my Dad was the real pioneer and prospector. Mom stayed with him 50 years until she passed–but had instructions to not be buried anywhere near him. Both sisters hated that life and my brother was not far behind in his thinking as well. Not for the weak hearted for sure or any good for a lady’s life.

                      When I was a kid attending school I would smell like smoke since Mom was cooking breakfast on a camp fire. Actually that was a good deodorant since baths were scarce due to having to haul water. He would have been arrested for child neglect these days but I loved that life–It was free and I had all the desert and all the forest depending on where he was prospecting –Nothing like the freedom of the wild and someone to share it with.

                      You learn to do things that way and I really think Thoreau was a man after my own heart even though he was English and down graded the Irish. He just did not know how much more intelligent we are not falling down before a queen. But of course each person should be seen by his merits, not his Englishness or Irishness. But I can be proud of my gene pool–they were survivors and still are despite the many hardships and invasions of the homeland.

                      Guiness is one of the world’s best beers, if not the best. I keep a few in my ice box in case of emergency or should a thirsty fire figher or other show. I had three the day I was shot so in case I had gotten stuck, I had those for the long hike back to my abode. There is plenty of food value in those things and they can encourage you on a hike. And no, I was not drinking those and driving , in fact I had not drank anything for over a week–strictly energy packs for hiking. Some people take bottled water which is fine but no vitamins there.

          • Charlie says

            Gary, I too like the Blues Brothers–my pc does not have sound but also the James Brown music. as well as the western and Spanish Fandango type and classical in some forms.

            Well Mexico loves the Blues Brothers as well and they carry on the legacy. There is a fat Mexican and a skinny Mexican dressed exactly like the Blues brothers including hats, sun glasses, and suits that host a TV show every night out of Juarez. You couldn’t make a better duplicate of those guys–only thing they bring in music and dancing girls–not much of the Blues Brothers style music but entertaining if you like that type show. All in Spanish though.

        • Charlie says

          Thanks WTKTT–Then according to weather updates the wind was to the south or south west until at least 3:01 and somewhere thereafter switched and by 4:01 was above 20mph. With hourly reports it then may have switched anywhere between 3 and 4 Pm. Thanks for the info on the distance–I had judged it to be about a mile and a half but it is closer to 1 mile. It would be something else to estimate how fast a fire would go from the Shrine to the Helms area. The figures given by I believe Willis were that the fire was moving at 11 mph from the north end of that ridge. Coming from the main fire where Donut was at the knoll would have been almost on a level plane until it went around that ridge, then proceed with a slope–maybe 5 degrees to where the men were. I would have thought it would have funnelled next to the North ridge at least at first after coming around the north ridge. However if the fire were coming from the Shrine then it would be in direct line to the men–no ridge interference there. If that fire came from the Shrine at 11 mph then it would arrive at the Helms at between 5 and 6 minutes. Because there is about a ten degree slope, if what the FS puts out is true–fires double velocity going every ten degrees, then we would expect that fire to have arrived in half the time from the Shrine once it jumped out of the canyon. We do not know exactly when the gusts came or when the wind did change. But it is a wow factor to realize how quickly that thing would have gone uphill from the Shrine area.

          Then you know exactly when Donut had been picked up but was there any talk of exactly where Donut was seeing the fire coming back his way. From where Donut was there were actually two ridges that fire would have by passed to get to the Death Basin. I think distance wise, it would have been a ways farther perhaps 1.5 miles between the Helms and say the Old Grader very near where Donut was sitting. The Canyon between the Donut Station and the Death Canyon was a much narrower canyon–also the one we went up to meet the two track. It was as dense as the deployment site, however, you had a meandering sand wash that alleviated some of the effort. Even the wash had plenty of vegetation so you were in and out depending upon the catclaw and manzanita you would encounter.

          Yes I could see now why that they would want to get rid of any evidence that there was some burning in the Shrine Area– Anything there could easily have cut the men off and in less time than you could make 100 yards through that manzanita as it was in the Helms area.

          I do not know who the people Joy did interview or am knowledgeable to what was said. However, I do believe Joy has firm evidence of a burn back or burn out in that area. I can understand her holding back in the interest of the people she interviewed due to possible and likely sure repercussions–perhaps both to her and those she interviewed. I am certainly like Gary or WTKTT, one reason it is good for me not to be a witness on these things–I would tell it because I think it is imperative the people that have been hurt so badly should know. I do know someone was going to court and that was being a reason for holding back some information and the other parties were working with a Congressman to get a Congressional hearing. I do not know where that is time wise–but my understanding is that they have some damn strong evidence. They do not want their names out there at this point and I can understand that. I have met the people and they carry credentials that would put them in league with respected investigators. My understanding is that once they get audience with the Congress people and something goes in motion there, then we will get the whole of the evidence they have at hand. So I will continue to respect their anonymity and since I have not seen their evidence my only role has been to support their efforts and I do applaud them since I do know they have put a lot of time and personal monies into their work.

          • Charlie says

            should have said wind was to the N-NE until 3.01 PM and switched–Hell I was there watching it head toward the thunder storms to the NE. Actually from where the Storms were you would have expected that cold air to come barreling down almost directly to the SW which your azimuth readings should show.

    • Charlie says

      I read the Bob Brandon story posted by WTKTT–sounds like a decent guy. I wonder why he hangs up on Joy? She would ask him did he know of a burn out or burn back in that Shrine area and he does not seem like the guy to tell a lie. Maybe he would take the 5th on that question? Well I can understand cause Joy does get to the meat of things but only wants to know facts and after that interview from the first Chief, I hope Bob has not learned his bad habits of giving disinformation out to the public–you do not do that with Joy–she records your answers and is dead serious when it comes to questions about the Yarnell Fire. And I should say rightly so–citizens have the right to the truth and when you have someone withholding information and giving out falsehoods then how can we believe any of that group that were involved in the Yarnell Fire.

      I take it there is a resentment toward citizens who want to get to the facts when it comes to questions of what our public servants are really doing with the public tax money that supports them. It would seem you really do need a citizens group to keep an eye on things.

      How many passes with a Jumbo Jet would it take to dump 500 thousand gallons? Well it depends upon the Jumbo Jet and even how much they do actually load on board. The problem is when you get reports from some of those people that have a bit of authority, you can never tell if it is the truth or not.

      Certainly Joy should have reported that Chief of Peeples Valley since she had his recorded lies and he was telling them with a straight face. What kind of people do they allow to run these fire departments?

    • Charlie says

      Joy has posted on her website photo of two separate smoke stacks ( a goodly space in between the stacks). I do not know the time of the photo but it might give some indication of when a burn out or burn back would have been.

      All I have is that I know there were two men doing burning with drip torches just above the Shrine area. That is a given. But what it means I do not know–for all I know they could have just been learning how to use those things right there and that is all they did–but it was a strange time to be learning the art of burning since I do remember the winds were up at that time:

  7. WantsToKnowTheTruth says

    Reply to Woodsman post on January 10, 2019 at 3:06 pm

    >> Woodsman said…
    >>
    >> I’m not “totally contradicting” what Sonny claims to have seen in the youtube
    >> video. I’m like Norb, I focus on what I’m accustomed to seeing – wildland
    >> firefighters doing wildland firefighting things…like drip torches, number of
    >> personnel, the fuel break they’re burning off of, the fuels, the weather etc.
    >> There very well may have been an old block foundation in there but my
    >> brain wouldn’t concentrate on that.
    >>
    >> The video that Sonny saw may not necessarily been the one I saw.

    Yes… but see below ( regarding the whole ‘timber/trees’ thing).

    Is it time to say we can be SURE that we are talking about MORE than one video now?

    >> Woodsman also said…
    >>
    >> MY time estimate is certainly before everything went to shit because the sun
    >> was shining and it was not dark. The wind was not “whipping” is was low to
    >> moderate. The fuels were shrubs and grasses – no timber. (stated for the 3rd time now)

    Since you have stated ( yes… for the 3rd time now ) there was ‘no timber’ ( sic: trees ) at all in the video YOU saw… then I’m assuming we can at least take THAT recollection to the bank.

    Since that is the case… then forget the ‘wind’ or ‘wall’ or ‘light level’ observation stuff for a moment.

    In the video that Joy posted at the exact location where both she and Sonny say they saw a video being filmed ( 100 yards west of where the Shrine Road pavement ends )… it’s pretty much impossible for any video filmed at that location to NOT be showing ‘trees’.

    Again… here is that video that Joy took at that location just a few weeks ago, on December 20, 2018…

    https://youtu.be/zn9Jpi4Lxyw

    Joy actually ‘spins around’ and basically shows all 360 degrees at that location.

    There is not one possible camera view, at that location, that does NOT clearly show ‘trees’.

    So is it time to call that a CONFIRMATION, then, that YOU did NOT see the same video that Joy and Sonny are saying THEY saw?

    I’m still just trying to make some progress on all this.

    It wouldn’t bother ME one bit to learn that ( as you already suggested ) there are, in fact, MULTIPLE videos that now have to be accounted for.

    Truly. It would not surprise me at all.

    But if that really is the case it would good to know, at this point and going forward ( which is where, I hope, we are still going ).

    >> Woodsman also said…
    >>
    >> I hear what you’re saying on the available evidence, I really do. I simply believe
    >> everything is not available to us at this time for final vetting of the scenario.

    I’m not even near hoping for a ‘final vetting’ stage. Not yet, anyway.

    I was hoping to just get through the “What can be known for sure” phase first.

    At the moment… there is still confusion about even how MANY ‘burnout’ videos people might have actually seen… WHERE any/all of them might have actually been filmed… and WHEN any/all of them were taken.

    Ultimately… it’s going to take people who might have been involved in any of these ‘burnouts’ to come forward and ‘tell the story’.

    Even then… a lot of ‘vetting’ would still have to take place.

    >> Woodsman also said…
    >>
    >> What I need is this:
    >>
    >> A “simulated flyover” of the area of the Shrine and Youth camp travelling WSW
    >> toward and through the BSR, deployment zone, and ending on the saddle where
    >> the crew dropped in.
    >>
    >> I need before and after satellite images of the area to compare fuels and their
    >> burn intensities.
    >>
    >> I need a flyover showing topography of the entire area in a 3 dimensional rendition.

    Okay… here you go…

    The following video contains ALL of what you just requested…

    https://youtu.be/BGyNWBVSaME

    This is actually something I did for calvin, yesterday, when he requested a workup on one of Air Attack Rory Collins’ photos.

    So that’s where the video starts… with a ‘crossfade’ into/outof Rory Collins’ June 30, 2013 aerial photo with the filename “LookingSE.jpg”.

    But it’s also much more than that, and I just ‘updated’ it to include everything you just requested.

    After it fades to/from the photo into the equivalent Google Earth view TWICE… it then ‘takes off’ on a complete TOUR of the Yarnell area, including a ‘close-up’ flythrough of the Shrine area, and then back WSW over the dozer line, BSR, deployment site, and saddle ( as you requested ).

    Video Description:
    ——————————————————————————————————-
    A crossfade in/out of Air Attack Rory Collins’ photo named ‘LookingSE.jpg’ which he took at 2:41:48 PM on Sunday, June 30, 2013 while flying over the Yarnell Hill fire. The last half of the video is a ‘flyaround’ of the entire Yarnell area, including a closeup look at the Shrine Road / Youth Camp area. The yellow line on the ground in the video is the ‘dozer line’ that was pushed on the old firebreak road that connected the Shrine area and the Sesame Street area.
    ——————————————————————————————————–

    Some other things to NOTE about the ‘fly-around’…

    1. The first half of the ‘fly-around’ uses PRE-FIRE satellite imagery, dated December 30, 2012… only 6 months prior to the 2013 Yarnell Fire.

    2. When the ‘fly-around’ gets all the way to the Shrine Road Youth camp and ‘pauses’ there… in a few seconds all the background satellite imagery now changes to a POST-FIRE view. That imagery is dated January 1, 2014… just 6 months AFTER the 2013 Yarnell Fire.

    So the PRE-FIRE imagery is 6 months BEFORE, and the POST-FIRE imagery is 6 months AFTER.

    3. The ‘fly-around’ itself will PAUSE at various locations so you can ‘take in the view’.. but it is, of course, just a VIDEO and you can PAUSE it yourself anywhere you want.

    4. In the video… that location at 100 yards west of where the pavement of Shrine road ends ( and where Joy shot her video on December 20, 2018 ) is marked with a RED balloon with the letter ‘W’ on it.

    The ‘W’ stands for “The Waltraud Property”, which is where those rock walls / foundations are located and where the multiple structures were before we SEE them burning down circa 5:30 PM in one of Aaron Hulburd’s videos.

    • calvin says

      Thanks. Very helpful. At least for me.
      What time of day was the dozer line (represented by the yellow line) constructed?

      • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

        Reply to calvin post on January 11, 2019 at 3:59 am

        >> calvin said…
        >>
        >> Thanks. Very helpful. At least for me.
        >>
        >> What time of day was the dozer line (represented by the
        >> yellow line) constructed?

        **** The SHORT story…

        Between 2:10 PM and 3:30 PM.

        SPGS1 Gary Cordes told Brian Frisby to tell HEQB/DOZB Cory Ball to start that project in a face-to-face conversation at 2:01 PM

        Frisby then told Ball to get Paul Morin and his dozer working on that dozer-line project circa 2:09 PM.

        He did, right away, and the dozer started from the Sesame area and worked N/NE over towards the Shrine Youth Camp.

        Paul Morin and his dozer arrived there at the Youth Camp a little less than a half-hour later, at 2:36 PM.

        Morin turned the dozer around, and then ‘improved’ the dozer line some more going back the other way and back towards the Sesame area where he started.

        He was finished with this dozer-line project by 3:30 PM, which is when the Blue Ridge Hotshots then started ‘spreading out’ on the newly-pushed dozer-line to start ‘prepping’ it for a possible burnout, later that evening, if necessary.

        The Blue Ridge Hotshots never finished ‘prepping’ that dozer-line.

        They only worked on it for about 30 minutes before being told to evacuate the dozer-line and quickly return to their vehicles parked at the Youth Camp.

        **** The LONG story…

        The whole ‘idea’ to use the dozer to improve that old road between the Sesame area and the Shrine Youth Camp didn’t even enter the picture until between 2:01 and 2:09 PM, when SPGS1 Gary Cordes met in-person with Blue Ridge Hotshots Brian Frisby and Trueheart Brown ( at the dozer loboy staging location where the pavement of Manzanita and Lakewood ended ) and told them that’s what he wanted the dozer to do next.

        From Blue Ridge Hotshot Brian Frisby’s handwritten Unit Log…
        —————————————————————————————
        As we were heading out towards highway 89 to see what the main fire was doing we ran into ( SPGS1 Gary Cordes ). We let him know what the dozer had gotten done and what we were seeing for fire behavior. He then let us know that he wanted the dozer to push an old two track to a old fuel break which would tie into Shrine rd. He said this would cut off most of Yarnell, he also told us of a trigger point he had to evacuate Yarnell was a ridge just due north of town. We got ( Cory Ball ) pushing the two-track with the dozer. ( Trew ) and I headed up 89. We notice the west flank running pretty hard towards the Hwy. There were many citizens parked along side the Hwy watching the fire.
        ————————————————————————————–

        The TIME ( according to the Blue Ridge GPS tracking logs ) for the moment when Frisby and Brown met up with Cordes at the dozer loboy staging area ( before they headed north on Highway 89 ) was exactly 2:01 PM.

        They stayed there ‘talking’ with Cordes ( and doing all the other things Frisby desrcibes above like getting Cory Ball to start that new dozer-line project ) for 8 minutes… and then, at 2:09 PM, they began doing the next thing Frisby says they did and they headed out to Highway 89, and then north, to go see what the fire was doing from that north-Highway 89 vantage point.

        They were up there on the north part of Highway 89 observing the fire for about 20 minutes.

        On their ‘return trip’ back to Yarnell is when Frisby and Brown went down the Shrine road to the Youth Camp to see if Cory Ball and Paul Morin and the dozer had reached that location yet.

        They almost had… and the dozer arrived there moments later, at 2:36 PM.

        ** DOZER FIRST REACHES THE SHRINE YOUTH CAMP AREA: Circa 2:36 PM

        From Blue Ridge Hotshot Brian Frisby’s handwritten Unit Log…
        —————————————————————————————–
        We ( he and Trueheart Brown ) then went back toward Yarnell to Shrine Road to see if the dozer was getting close to tying in. As we got down to where the dozer was going to tie in we noticed a couple of type 6 engines around the structure. We could hear the ( dozer ) and ( Cory Ball ) called to let us know he was getting close
        —————————————————————————————-

        The TIME now ( according to the Blue Ridge GPS tracking logs ) for that moment when Frisby and Brown ‘got down to where the dozer was going to tie in’ ( at the Shrine Youth Camp ) has always been exactly 2:35 PM.

        Brown says that they could ‘hear the dozer’ approaching the Youth Camp at that moment ( 2:35 PM ), and that Ball called them to say he was getting ‘close’.

        Peeples Valley FF Bob Brandon was already ‘staged’ there at the Youth Camp, and keeping an eye on the PVFD vehicles Tender T-64 and Brush Truck E-54, and he had his camera out.

        One minute later, at 2:36 PM, Bob Brandon took multiple photos of the dozer actually ‘arriving’ there at the Shrine Road Youth Camp.

        In his own words, in a public BLOG post he made on the ‘Yarnell Hill Recovery Group’ website, Peeples Valley FF Bob Brandon described the moment like this…

        http://www.yarnellhillrecoverygroup.org/os_bob_brandon.html
        —————————————————————————————
        Probably mid-afternoon, the bulldozer came rambling through the woods. It kind of looked like Jurasic Park, knocking down trees, clearing a roadway. When it arrived at our location, I was just sitting by my tanker taking pictures of it because it was just kind of an awesome site.

        When he pushed though the woods and got to our location, all of a sudden, he turned around, did a 180 and took off. He never finished the roadway he was supposed to do for us. We were confused because now we had to finish it by ourselves.
        —————————————————————————————

        So just shortly after having reached the Youth Camp, at 2:36 PM, Dozer operator Paul Morin just ‘did a 180’ and left the area, heading back down the dozer line and back towards the Sesame area where he had started.

        What FF Bob Brandon didn’t seem to know ( at that time ) was that Gary Cordes had also already instructed his TFLD(t) ‘Task Force 2’ leader Tyson Esquibel to get HIS resources to put in a ‘saw line’ there at the Youth Camp from where the dozer-line would end, on over to the ‘Rock Pile’ on the north side of the Youth Camp.

        ** DOZER STILL SEEN ON THE DOZER LINE AS LATE AS 3:30 PM

        Paul Morin and his dozer finished improving the dozer-line around 3:20 PM.

        At exactly 3:30:02 PM, HEQB/DOZB Cory Ball took the following photograph ( with his network-connected and time-correct iPhone 4S ) of Morin’s dozer still there on that dozer-line between the Sesame and Shrine area(s)…

        https://www.dropbox.com/sh/02ue6bnjp6nazkm/AAD72skvle6Io8jtO_DmLQn7a/Photos%20and%20Video/BlueRidgeHotshotsPhotosVideos/Ball?dl=0&preview=IMG_1883.JPG&subfolder_nav_tracking=1

        In that photo, taken looking northeast, the dozer is ‘blade up’ and just driving southwest, passing the Blue Ridge Hotshots who are now seen walking out onto the dozer-line to start ‘prepping’ it.

        The photo was taken near the WEST end of the dozer-line… because we can see the ‘barbed wire fence’ that was there in the left side of the photograph.

        Dozer operator Paul Morin was now possibly just heading back to where the dozer loboy trailer was staged down in Glen Ilah where the pavement of Lakewood and Manzanita ends.

        It is actually still not fully known what happened to Paul Morin and his Yavapai County dozer after Cory Ball took this 3:30 PM photo.

        He ended up on the list of ‘missing persons’ that DPS Helicopter Ranger 58 was supposed to be ‘looking for’ following the burnover and deployment… because no one seemed to be sure whether he ever made it out of the area that afternoon… or where he was when the burnover took place.

        Yavapai County Dozer Operator Paul Morin was never interviewed by ANY investigators.

    • Woodsman says

      I reviewed Joy’s video again and it’s just shrub, grass, and some scraggly small trees (that have grown in the last 5 years) – no timber. I’ll get back to you after review of your latest flyover. One thing I will ask: you said in a post to Norb down below that the image you have in the video is “immediately after” the fire. In the video I’ve already seen that you developed in the last week you said it was an aerial image 6 months later. Are you using the terms “immediately after” and “six months later” interchangeably here? Thanks

      • Charlie says

        Yes as I remember there were plenty of trees in the Shrine area and as I remember oak and one seeded juniper what we commonly call cedar trees–I know them because I spent several years clearing them on a ranch north of Tularosa, NM after the shut down of the timber we were falling near Cloudcroft, NM. That was not clear cutting but harvesting of certain marked trees–and that was stopped due to the small spotted owl. Shortly after that time there was one hell of a forest fire that took out a huge chunk of the forest west of where we were working–always a question of whether harvesting in that manner helps. The area burned had not been thinned. Either way my memory is par excellent on the fact of where the burning was an the drip torces for reasons that we spent so much time making sure that was the foundation/rock structure that connected to the burning and even to the fact that Joy and I took a trip to Peeples Valley to see if there was a clone to the area.

        Now it comes to mind and Gary thanks–you always mentioned the fact that the main idea is to burn out where possible to save an area. Well first the road itself was a break that men did not have to do. Second that area needed to be burned back and third the meteorlogical information was known and relayed. It was known the wind would change and even a dozer line was going to be made along the north edge of Glen Isla–The dozer was unloaded and even broke down a wall of the Walker residence right on the edge of Glen Isla. We got that from a legitamate source so to speak–the daughter of the owners right in the American Legion–I was there when she told Joy about the damage they saw after the fire with dozer tracks left to the wall. The home burned so it did not matter but proved the dozer was on site By the way, that lady only in her 40’s is now deceased from cancer. She told us her lungs were bothering her after the fire incident–We had become friends with her and miss that lady-Ms. Walker.

        So it absolutely makes sense that you would put men in the Shrine area to do a burn out timed as soon as possible before the wind reversal which could have been even early that morning since a burn out would not have threatened Glen Isla nor Yarnell with the fires going toward Peeples Valley (Northeeastwardly away from Glen Isla and Yarnell). True there were boulders to protect the North end of the few buildings in that area and as Joy said though just North of the Shrine were areas of grass and manzanita among the boulders but still there were even boulder areas protecting the North end from those grass and manzanita areas. By the way, also there was a Jumbo Jet load of retardant dropped in a North to South direction in those boulder areas and with the wind directions by then away from that area anyway. None of the houses on the North end of Yarnell were damaged along with Yarnell below the Shrine area in the down town business area.

        So does the Yellow line in the video mark the burnout line? I understand from source anonymous that it does. The timing of the burnout is crucial–What time would you pros think it would have been started and does the yellow line make sense? All I have knowledge of is that a burn out did happen (those drip torchers were lighting up vegetation) and now the important thing is the total extant of it and when.

      • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

        On a dumbphone at the moment so need to be brief.
        I’ll address the new issue now about what is a tree and what isn’t in another post later.
        Regarding aerial photos in videos…
        The 2 aerial photos in the video about the SAIT fireline chart we’re both taken just after the fire, on July 2, 2013.
        The aerial photo at the start of the new Rory Collins video was taken by Collins himself on June 30, 2013.
        The SATELLITE imagery in the Google Earth’s flyaround in the Collins video is the stuff that is dated 6 months before the Yarnell fire and then ( in the last part of that video ) 6 months afterwards.
        Does that answer your question.

        • Charlie says

          The death of Kathy Walker I chalk up to another retardant death. She is missed, brought a smile and often a laugh out of me when we met at the Legion. That slow killer got a lot of good people, especially those that breathed in plenty of the fumes after their return to Yarnell–including myself. My first heart attack was in Helena, Montana after I left Yarnell. It was misdiagnosed as something else and I was given a morphine shot to quell the pain. I did get to visit with Ted Putnam there as he was visiting the site some twenty miles north of there at Mann Gulch. That was one of the many trips he had made to the site to try to make sense of how those men were killed. A testimony to his thoroughness of an investigation. He told me he had been some six years investigating and interviewing the last surviving witnesses about the fire that killed 13 young wild land fire fighters. His conclusions led to another cover up where the State and FS did not want to take responsibility–so disinformation became a thing in that one.

          He experienced similar happenings in the fire deaths he investigated during the Storm King incident that killed 14 and he could not sign off on due to good conscience and the fact the thing was not properly investigated and that eventhough he was chief of the investigation and would have serious consequences to his career if he did so.

          It is the shame of the States and FS to degrade these investigations to aggrandize the system and people managing it while compromising the lives of future wild land fire fighters.

          The other shame is that a movie producer would use people such as Amanda and managers that wanted to make the Yarnell Fire Look like a wonderful award winning job instead of the dismal failure it really was. So they skirt people that have the highest of credentials and you can put Dr. Ted Putnam as one of those people. His 15 years as a smoke jumper and incessant work to make wild land fire fighting safer would make him a priority for consultation on this Yarnell incident–you can bet that he was never contacted.

          But he is one among the many Joy and I had come to know and respect for
          their concern about how that Yarnell incident was played out by the SAIT and others connected to the FS and State Departments involved in the cover up at Yarnell. If you go down the list starting from John Daugherty and all those wild land fire fighting experts posting regularly on this site well named Investigative Media, you will come to understand the truth of the fire.

          I do hope the Media, Congressmen, Authors, Producers and other influential persons lend ear to the professionals that have been there and done that and are ready to share their expertise to expose this tragic white wash of lies, redactions and cover ups that have plagued the investigation and truth at what happened at Yarnell to rank it as the Century’s Worst Wild Land Fire Fighting Effort.

    • Norb Szczurek says

      WTKTT,

      Nice work on the video! I have been on site three times and this still helps me get oriented. Couple of questions for you – do you know where Darby Star and crew were putting in saw line?
      We know what time resources were pulled out of that area, but is there any record of when the arrived in the area? I really don’t recall seeing anything, but hopefully you have something.

  8. WantsToKnowTheTruth says

    **
    ** BLUE RIDGE CAPTAIN TRUEHEART BROWN…
    **
    ** “MAKING SURE IDIOTS AREN’T BURNING THEMSELVES OUT”

    While it is still hard to find any existing ( non-deleted ) photo or video evidence of any kind of ‘manual burnout’ emanating from the Shrine Road Youth Camp all the way up to about 4:27 PM on the afternoon of June 30, 2013…

    …there actually IS ( and always has been ) a very compelling piece of ‘evidence’ in the public record that MAY be proof that fire WAS being manually laid down in that area AS all the crews were evacuating from there.

    That ( possible ) proof comes in one of Aaron Hulburd’s videos filmed at the Shrine of St. Joseph.

    Let me explain…

    It is just before 4:37 PM, on Sunday, June 30, 2013, and just two minutes before Jesse Steed’s first botched MAYDAY call was about to hit the Air-To-Ground radio channel, at 4:39 PM.

    Blue Ridge Hotshots Superintendent Brian Frisby and Blue Ridge Captain Trueheart Brown are just now arriving at the Shrine of St. Joseph parking lot in their Polaris Ranger UTV.

    They have just finished ‘chasing’ everyone out of the Shrine Road Youth Camp area, due to the fireline now coming over the ridges in that area, and they are ‘bringing up the rear’ and are the ‘last ones out’ of that area.

    As they pull up to the parking lot, Prescott National Forest employees Jason Clawson, KC ‘Bucky’ Yowell and Aaron Hulburd are already ‘staged’ there to meet them.

    Aaron Hulburd is, at this point, filming everything that is happening.

    Frisby and Brown pull up to them and stop, and Brown is the first one to speak.

    Brown says “Hey there” to KC ‘Bucky’ Yowell, and the conversation between them begins.

    The full video containing this exchange between Brown and Yowell is here…

    Aaron Hulburd Video Title: M2U00264.MP$
    http://youtu.be/t75k7o_L6B8

    Here is an exact transcript of the start of that conversation, at +3:06 into the video…
    ———————————————————————————————————
    +3:06 ( 1636.29 / 4:36.29 )
    (BR Captain Trueheart Brown): Hey there ( guy ).

    +3:07 ( 1636.30 / 4:36.30 )
    (KC ‘Bucky’ Yowell): What time is it? Is it dark, or what?

    +3:08 ( 1636.31 / 4:36.31 )
    (BR Captain Trueheart Brown): It IS dark ( up here ).

    +3:09 ( 1636.32 / 4:36.32 )
    (KC ‘Bucky’ Yowell): How ya doin’, guy?

    +3:12 ( 1636.35 / 4:36.35 )
    (BR Captain Trueheart Brown): Fuckin’ making sure idiots aren’t burning themselves out. God DAAAMN!

    +3:14 ( 1636.37 / 4:36.37 )
    (Aaron Hulburd): We figured you guys were bringin’ up ( the rear ).

    ———————————————————————————————————

    So the very FIRST thing BR Captain Brown ‘reports’ to Yowell, after having just chased all the other firefighters out of the Shrine Youth Camp area, is the following…

    “Fuckin’ making sure idiots aren’t burning themselves out. God DAAAMN!”

    The “God DAAAMN!” is with full vocal emphasis on Brown’s part.

    He’s a professional Hotshot, who has been to a lot of fires and seen a lot of stupid people do a lot of stupid things… but what he ( apparently ) just witnessed out in the Shrine Road Youth Camp area still elicits a strong ( and incredulous ) “God DAAAMN!” from him… as if the ‘stupidity’ meter just went off the end of even HIS chart.

    Think about Brown’s choice of words for a moment.

    Yes… he and Frisby just had to make SURE all those guys back there were getting out, and they did report ( in their Unit Logs ) having to YELL at some of them to ‘hurry them up’.

    But if it was just a case of having to hurry people up to get out of the way of a naturally approaching wildfire, you would think Brown would have said something more along the lines of…

    “making sure idiots aren’t getting burned UP”
    OR
    “making sure idiots don’t get burned UP”
    OR
    “making sure idiots don’t burn UP”

    But that’s not what Brown said. He said MORE than that.

    He ACTUALLY said…

    “making sure idiots aren’t burning THEMSELVES out. God DAAAMN!”

    Not simply “burning UP”… Brown specifically said “burning THEMSELVES OUT”.

    Brown’s choice of words implies that he and Frisby had to just prevent a bunch of “idiots” from “burning themselves OUT”.

    It’s a subtle difference… but might be very important.

    The fact that Brown used the ( specific ) phrase “burning themselves OUT” actually implies that what he and Frisby just had to do back there in the Youth Camp area was prevent a bunch of “idiots” from harming THEMSELVES due to a badly-timed and badly-executed BURNOUT.

    I think we can also be sure that when Blue Ridge Captain Trueheart Brown was referring to other firefighters as “Fuckin’ idiots”… he was NOT referring to his own Hotshot crew.

    Hotshots, in general, just don’t do that sort of thing.

    Trash talk OTHER units to other people… yes… but call your OWN crew a bunch of “Fuckin’ idiots” to some OTHER ( Non-Hotshot ) fireman?

    Not likely.

    So Brown must have been referring to some ( or all? ) of the following ( in his own words ) “Fuckin’ idiots” who he and Frisby just had to chase out of the Youth Camp and keep THEM from “burning THEMSELVES OUT”…

    ——————————————————————————————————-
    Peeples Valley Fire Department
    1 Water Tender – T-64
    1 Brush Truck – E-54
    Four crewmen…
    Jacob Moder, Ronald Smith, Bob Brandon and Matthew Keehner

    Sun City Fire Department
    1 Type 6 Engine – Sun City Engine 103 – LIC# G-264EF
    Four crewman…
    Darby Starr ( Engine Boss ), Coy Boggler, Jarret White and James Flint

    Central Yavapai
    1 Type 6 Engine – E-59 – LIC# G-682DV – Front Plate: CEY-P59
    Four crewman…
    Charlie Reyes ( Engine Boss ), Ryan Ferris, Steve Emery, Matt Mcfadden

    Glendale Fire Department
    1 command vehicle.
    1 TFLD(t) in charge of Yarnell ‘Task Force 2’ – Tyson Esquibel.
    ———————————————————————————————————-

    SIDENOTE: Unless more evidence emerges, that ‘list’ above is, I believe, pretty much the full list of who was known to have been working in the Shrine Road Youth Camp area in the late afternoon, on June 30, 2013.

    • Woodsman says

      Yep. On most initial attack fires with personnel involved “that’s training and job description constitutes all facets of fire & rescue services and not just wildfire emergencies, ” I find myself in 2 primary roles:

      1. Wildfire suppression

      2. Keeping morons from killing themselves….GOTDAAAAAMM!!!

      It’s roughly a 50/50 split.

      My opinion is there’s a very good reason it’s nigh impossible to locate any surviving hard evidence of the burnouts that occurred at Yarnell Hill in the public record.

      I will say I love those folks because of their skill set when needed is needed but it doesn’t change the reality that they can be truly dangerous to themselves and others at times. Gotdammmmm!

      • Woodsman says

        Cordes, when informed of GMs entrapment said “bullshit, they had plenty of time to get there.” Did he mean time to get there before the main fire arrived or before a flame front from a manual ignition arrived? Or something else?

        The irony is that the GM leadership may have played a role in training the personnel whom ultimately contributed to their predicament at the fire academy. The USFS played a role in the academy as well, I’m sure.

        • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

          Reply to Woodsman post on January 7, 2019 at 3:18 am

          >> Woodsman said…
          >>
          >> Cordes, when informed of GMs entrapment said “bullshit,
          >> they had plenty of time to get there.”

          Ironically… the person who ‘informed’ Cordes of that was CYFD Engine 59 crewboss Charlie Reyes.

          Engine 59 was one of the ones back there at the Shrine Youth Camp that afternoon.

          It is still unknown how Reyes heard about the deployment… but since his engine is seen leaving the Shrine Parking Lot area just moments before Jesse Steed’s first botched MAYDAY call, at 4:39 PM, then the only chance Reyes had at hearing that radio traffic would have been while he was still evacuating the Shrine area and driving down to the Ranch House Restaurant.

          So obviously Reyes was able to hear most/all of the Air-To-Ground radio traffic that day.

          But Charlie Reyes was ( as far as we know ) NEVER interviewed by ANYONE.

          Neither was anyone else from CYFD ‘Engine 59’… which had been working in the Shrine Youth Camp area that afternoon.

          Reyes and his Engine 59 crew still might be the “idiots” that Truehheart Brown was talking about in his recorded conversation with KC ‘Bucky’ Yowell.

          Darby Starr and his engine crew were known to be cutting that ‘saw line’ in Harper Canyon, with the help of Peeples Valley FFs Don Smith and Jacob Moder…

          …but it’s actually still a mystery what the hell Charlie Reyes and the crew of his Engine 59 were ACTUALLY doing out there at that Shrine Youth Camp.

          >> Woodsman also said…
          >>
          >> Did he mean time to get there before the main fire
          >> arrived or before a flame front from a manual ignition
          >> arrived? Or something else?

          There’s no evidence that Cordes was aware of any ‘manual burnouts’ taking place that afternoon.

          Maybe he was, maybe he wasn’t. But if he WAS ( aware )… then he’s always been lying about it.

          He had asked Frisby ( via radio ) about the ‘possibility’ of burning out the entire dozer line ( as planned ) circa 4:08 PM.

          Frisby said “NO”… and the ( official ) ‘burnout’ plan was never initiated.

          From Brian Frisby’s handwritten Unit Log…
          ————————————————-
          Approximate time: 4:10 PM, June 30, 2013
          I then headed for the Supt truck ( parked at the end of Lakewood and Manzanita pavement, where the dozer loboy had been staged as well ) I met ( Ball ) there and I was called by ( SPGS1 Gary Cordes ) on Tac 1 and he asked if burning the two-track was still an option. I told him NO, and that if it hasn’t yet, it will burn over the two-track very quickly. He copied and ( Eric Marsh ) called and agreed with what I said and he said where the ( GM ) trucks were parked was all black.

          ————————————————-

          >> Woodsman also said…
          >>
          >> The irony is that the GM leadership may have played a role
          >> in training the personnel whom ultimately contributed to
          >> their predicament at the fire academy. The USFS played
          >> a role in the academy as well, I’m sure.

          There’s always been a lot of “you can’t make this shit up” irony associated with this tragedy.

          I still think it is downright ‘creepy’ that the same individual who was the last person to ‘sign off’ on Eric Marsh’s DIVS taskbook would then become the same person to audio record DIVSA Marsh’s final words out at the deployment site.

          Prescott National Forest employee Aaron Hulburd.

      • Charlie says

        Datura, commonly known as jimsonweed smoke, that may have affected the judgement of the GMHS crew bosses was mentioned by someone before in a post. Smoking jimsonweed or getting doses through the smoke of a burn seems pretty remote and according to users will produce horrific hallucinations-why that person asked.

        It is public information that Marsh had been a marijuana smoker. But I do not believe that MJ would give you the high energy we saw in Marsh that day. About the only drug that could help you move like a deer was something the Peruvian Indians had used for centuries to give them energy and open their lungs to travel unheeded in the high altitudes. Of course they chewed the coca leaf but it was the alkaloid content later isolated into concentrates of cocaine that users began to take. Sigmund Freud used it, promoted it and Coca Cola used it in their soft drinks and that was a successful business proposition–Sales skyrocketed and continued from up until 1922 when cocaine use became illegal.

        I believe I have shared my own experience with MJ. I had a friend named Jeff. His wife and he were smokers of Mj but I have all my life been suspicious of drugs of any sort. Now Jeff had his own plants and even wanted to use my corn patch garden to put a few more in. I never allowed–we both had 5 acres and water wells, but I am one to live and let live. Somehow he finally convinced me to take a few whiffs of the thing he had rolled. We were driving my old ford on a dirt road and about five miles from home when I suddenly shrunk to an altitude of two inches. I told Jeff how the hell am I driving when I am only two inches high. He laughed and said cause this is good shit. Needless to say unlike Clinton I had taken a good whiff and felt the effects.

        But maybe it was a good thing for me because I never wanted to shrink like that again–what if someone stepped on you. But it did cause a fear in me in the Uranium mines where I knew the men that were driving those huge diesel machines up and down the drifts were also tokers. There is only barely enough room for one of those to pass along most of a drift and that if you stood sideways as it passed,. So you would find me running down the drift to find a cut out when I would see their lights coming.

        Lots of miners smoked pot–and especially when I was in California–there the hippie types would work in the mill–I did drink their wine after hours but did not engage in their drug. So many have said, well try it again–the first time likely was a bum trip. No thanks.

        These days it is becoming legal–actually I could qualify for a card here in New Mexico- and perhaps if I had a smoke this gunshot pain when I flex my arm would disappear but then I might too. If you like it fine with me–Isn’t America great–free to do your thing as long as it does not hurt those around you. Well maybe not altogether.

        So these drug reformed addicts that attend AA, are all of them reformed? Not by a long shot. But that can keep people, police, judges, etc off their backs. Well certainly many are reforming there but then there are those that are not. The temptation to continue using drugs is enormous and some of those people are highly ingenious at hiding their habit from loved ones and others. I did manage a half way house in Las Cruces for a couple years–trying to help drug users, alcoholics and paroled prisoners to assimilate back into society. See I have a bat hide to qualify me for such work–something I also did for the Probation Department in El Paso Texas. That is another story but where am I going here with this one.

        Oh–how marvelous it was to see the energy of Marsh, yet how depressing to see the men on the way up the mountain to get to the fire edge that Joy and I had already visited. We were going down the two track while they were going up. So it went down to a ravine then the two track again ascended to a near level two track that parallels the top of the Weaver Range. From where we passed them and we built a monument back toward the south where they eventually went, it is about a half mile of hiking to the point where Joy was resting and had her boots off while I was escaping then returning to encourage her to get the hell out with me pronto.
        If you don’t like hikes you can actually see the two track about three quarters of the way up the Weaver Mountain side and even where they went down just by walking a few yards–maybe 50 to the north of the Cafe where all the firemen had gathered after the demise of the men. And if you have fairly decent vision you will be able to see people walking the two track from that location and with binoculars certainly.

        One thing I have never tried is Cocaine and do not expect to at least in this lifetime. But its effects would have been to make one able to carry on like a mountain goat and up and down and about similar to what amazed me about how Marsh could move. Am I saying he was on Cocaine–not at all. Probably no sign of that since these men had to be in top shape. But do we have toxicology reports and were those allowed or deemed redactable and private?

        I apologize since some of you are saying why doesn’t Sonny know this–it has to be old news–I just missed it like so many other details.
        ome time ago someone mentioned that it might have been datura plant, I think

        • Charlie says

          Again that bottom remark came from the top–my computer thinks better than I do. So I am not spaced out but my computer is.

        • Gary Olson says

          I’m pretty sure the drug of choice in the mines these days Sonny is speed…crystal meth. I know that’s what keeps the roustabouts goin’ 24/7 up on those deadly oil drilling rigs up in the Four Corners in the ice, snow and dark of night. It used to be coke…but now it’s all meth.

    • Charlie says

      Thanks for that WTKTT–Those conversations sound to be that Trueheart had knowledge that some burning was going on and he was concerned that those men doing it were in danger of getting themselves trapped? But I would like to hear from some of the wild land fire fighter bosses whether that is their take on Trueheart’s reaction and conversation he had with the men. It seems someone was burning–but what does it mean “burn themselves our”?

      • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

        Reply to Charlie post on January 7, 2019 at 9:22 am

        >> Charlie said…
        >>
        >> Those conversations sound to be that Trueheart had knowledge
        >> that some burning was going on and he was concerned that
        >> those men doing it were in danger of getting themselves trapped?

        Yes. It’s hard to interpret that statement of Brown’s any other way.

        At exactly 4:36:35 PM, he CLEARLY says ( to KC ‘Bucky’ Yowell )…

        “Fuckin’ making sure idiots aren’t burning themselves out. God DAAAMN!”

        He seems to be CLEARLY saying that he just had to stop “idiots” from doing something bad to THEMSELVES ( as in… burning THEMSELVES out ).

        There is absolutely nothing in either Trueheart Brown’s or Brian Frisby’s Unit Log statements that support and/or elaborate on this ( recorded ) statement of Brown’s.

        There is also nothing in the published copy of the SAIT’s interview notes with the Blue Ridge Hotshots… and the ADOSH investigators were never allowed to interview ANY of the BR Hotshots at all.

        Only Trueheart Brown himself could say what he really meant by that statement, but there is no evidence that anyone EVER asked him to explain it.

    • Norb Szczurek says

      Captain Brown has an interesting choice of words. The other point of interest in this conversation is the fires shape on the fire perimeter map in this area (Youth Camp). The fires edge makes a distinct “loop” around what appears to me to be around the area of the Youth Camp. I am not a Fire Behavior Analyst but in my experience there are only a few explanations for this “loop”.

      1. The main fire ran out of available fuel (not the case here)
      2. Aggressive suppression action to push the main fire around this area (again not the case here, when the fire went to shit resources were evacuated)
      3. A firing operation prior to the arrival of the main fire in an attempt to keep the main fire out of the youth camp

      In my opinion number 3 is the explanation for the “loop” in the fires edge (your mileage may vary). Fires shapes typically don’t “loop” in that manner without human intervention.

      • The Truth Will Always Remain Elusive says

        There is a massive boulder-covered hill directly to the north of the youth camp which may account for the diversion of the fire around the camp.

        • Joy Collura says

          Wrong

          I will lay my life down on stating this FIRM

          That Harper Canyon was all boulders yet at one point ( June 30 2013 and before ) the top of that was a large meadow. Fact check with archival maps please but I know I am right…its
          my terrain since the 70s and that area was with with much much fuels and. Tex and I took Rolling Stone editor right after the fire to see that exact area

          So yeah…boulders but hell there was too much fuels there WITH evidence still to be shown

          Chime in Tex

          Remember hiking Josh

          I am in a Sattelite conference.
          But I asked Tex to post this but I dont see it:

          I wanted to stick up for you to Wtktt for saying your confused

          Please post this below only on my behalf not the above:

          https://www.dropbox.com/sh/02ue6bnjp6nazkm/AACjXUZXUTol5xdSHlORGsTqa/Photos%20and%20Video/Jerry%20Thompson%20Photos%20Videos?dl=0&preview=IMG_1134.3gp&subfolder_nav_tracking=1

          At 34/104
          Explain to me Wtktt why the separate plumes
          to the left is the Corridor
          to the right is the Harper Canyon
          https://www.dropbox.com/sh/02ue6bnjp6nazkm/AACjXUZXUTol5xdSHlORGsTqa/Photos%20and%20Video/Jerry%20Thompson%20Photos%20Videos?dl=0&preview=IMG_1898.jpg&subfolder_nav_tracking=1

          Sonny…this is Sun City West Jerry Thompson, who was on a brush rig during the fire, gave these June 30, 2013 photos to Mike Dudley, a member of the Accident Investigation Team…the same man Mike Dudley who got Bob Brandon’s stuff along with Clay Templin and never made it to the report so please tell me that this is ALL of Jerry’s data in pure form? I would like that clarification from the man Above.
          Has all Thomas stuff been made public?

        • Norb Szczurek says

          Okay, if that massive boulder field did divert the fire around the camp then what prevented the fire from backing in (after the main fire front had gone through) from a different direction? It certainly wasn’t stopped from suppression forces since they had all been evacuated. In my three visits to the site I have pretty much retraced the crews footsteps and frankly the majority of the fire area seemed like a large boulder field laced with fuel between the boulders.

          • The Truth Will Always Remain Elusive says

            I was just speculating and presenting a hypothetical.

            I’m still not absolutely sure I know the EXACT location of where the camp is (was), but I have always assumed it was just past the Shrine parking lot on the right, in the location where several structures DID burn. If that IS the location, there is a hill butting-up against the camp, which tops-out at approximately 200 feet higher than than camp, and which, would seemingly block some of the wind from hitting the leeward (south) side, along with (perhaps) slowing the fire spread down the leeward side, as well. Also, the south face would have less vegetation than the rest of the hill. This could account for the fire advancing around the sides of the hill quicker than over the top and down.

            In any case, it appears the fire got into the camp and burned structures if my geography is correct.

            • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

              Reply to The Truth Will Always Remain Elusive ( TTWARE )
              post on January 7, 2019 at 6:37 pm

              >> TTWARE said…
              >>
              >> I’m still not absolutely sure I know the EXACT location
              >> of where the camp is (was), but I have always assumed
              >> it was just past the Shrine parking lot on the right,
              >> in the location where several structures DID burn.

              Your assumption is correct.

              >> TTWARE also said…
              >>
              >> If that IS the location,

              It is.

              >> TTWARE also said…
              >>
              >> …there is a hill butting-up against the camp, which
              >> tops-out at approximately 200 feet higher than than camp,

              Correct.

              This was the “Rock Pile” that both Gary Cordes and Tyson Esquibel talked about in their ADOSH interviews, and the designated ‘termination point’ for the oveerall ‘dozer line’ project ( which was never fully completed that day ).

              It was the job of Darby Starr and the other FFs in the Youth Camp / Harper Canyon area to put in ‘saw/hand line’ from where the dozer had stopped, just west of the structures at the Youth Camp, and ‘tie’ the dozer line into that “Rock Pile” on the north side of the area.

              This is exactly what Darby Starr and the others were doing when the fire started coming over that ridge and it was time to RTO and “get the heck out of Dodge”.

              >> TTWARE also said…
              >>
              >> …and which, would seemingly block some of the wind
              >> from hitting the leeward (south) side, along with
              >> (perhaps) slowing the fire spread down the leeward
              >> side, as well. Also, the south face would have less
              >> vegetation than the rest of the hill. This could account
              >> for the fire advancing around the sides of the hill
              >> quicker than over the top and down.

              Once the fireline hit the top of that “Rock Pile” ridge… the winds were already so strong that it was spotting down into the Youth Camp area below.

              Just before Brian Frisby and Trueheart Brown started driving out of the Youth Camp area themselves, Frisby was recorded talking to Cordes ( at 4:33 PM ) and telling him they were “pushin’ your folks out”, and the fire was now “Pushin’ down on us pretty hard” ( in the Youth Camp area ) and that there were already “Multiple spots” there in the Youth Camp.

              From the very start of Aaron Hulburd’s video M2U0064

              http://youtu.be/t75k7o_L6B8

              ————————————————————–
              VIDEO M2U00264 STARTS AT 1633.23 ( 4:33.23 PM )

              +0:03 ( 1633.26 / 4:33.26 PM )
              (SPGS1 Gary Cordes): Structure, Cordes.

              +0:05 ( 1633.28 / 4:33.28 PM )
              (BR SUP Brian Frisby): Yea… just lettin’ ya know we’re… ah… we’re in on those structures on Shrine… we’ll be the last ones in here… we’re pushin’ your folks out.

              +0:13 ( 1633.36 / 4:33.36 PM )
              (SPGS1 Gary Cordes): Real broken.

              +0:16 ( 1633.39 / 4:33.29 PM )
              (BR SUP Brian Frisby): Uh… How ya copy now?

              +0:19 ( 1633.42 / 4:33.42 PM )
              (SPGS1 Gary Cordes): Try again.

              +0:20 ( 1633.43 / 4:33.43 PM )
              (BR SUP Brian Frisby): Yea… just lettin’ ya know we’re in on those structures on Shrine right now… we’ll be the last ones out and we’re… ah… we’re pushin’ your folks out. Multiple spots. Pushin’ down on us pretty hard.

              +0:31 ( 1633.54 / 4:33.54 PM )
              (SPGS1 Gary Cordes): Copy. Get out to the highway.

              ————————————————————–

              >> TTWARE also said…
              >>
              >> In any case, it appears the fire got into the
              >> camp and burned structures

              Yes. It did. ALL of them… including the multiple structures on the WALTRAUD property, which was right there on the south side of Shrine Road where the driveway entrance to the Camp itself was.

        • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

          Reply to The Truth Will Always Remain Elusive ( TTWARE )
          post on January 7, 2019 at 12:40 pm

          >> TTWARE said…
          >>
          >> There is a massive boulder-covered hill directly to
          >> the north of the youth camp

          Yes, there is.

          In their ( separate ) ADOSH interviews, both SPGS1 Gary Cordes and TFLD(t) Tyson Esquibel used the same phrase “Rock Pile” to describe that geographic feature just north of the Youth Camp.

          This “Rock Pile” was supposed to be the ‘termination point’ for the dozer line that they were planning to ( possibly ) burn out later that evening… if the conditions remained right to attempt such a burnout.

          That ‘plan’ was never put into action ( according to everyone involved ).

          This “Rock Pile” was also what Gary Cordes kept referring to as his “Aw Shit Ridge”…. and the trigger-point for all firefighters evacuating the Shrine and Harper Canyon area(s) immediately when the fire reached that ridge.

          >> TTWARE also said…
          >>
          >> which may account for the diversion of the fire around the camp.

          The fire did not ‘divert around the camp’ at all.

          That entire area was, essentially, ‘moonscaped’ by the fire.

          All the structures at the Youth Camp burned to the ground, as well as those multiple structures there on the WALTRAUD property, which was there where the entrance driveway to the Youth Camp meets the dirt part of Shrine Road.

          • The Truth Will Always Remain Elusive says

            I only mentioned the “diversion” in reference to Norb’s comment that apparently on a fire progression map, he saw that the progression seemed to circle around the camp. I posited a theory as to why it might have done that. I ‘get’ that the camp burned to the ground, but the actual fire front (not including spots), could have come around the bend first, before it worked it’s way down through the rocks from the top.

            This is not unlike the theory that the fire came roaring around the bend when the crew first saw it,and not over the top of the boulder strewn hill on the north-side of the bowl.

            • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

              Copy that.

              But if Norb was referring to the ‘fire progression maps’ as published in the original SAIR and ADOSH reports… that ‘little loop’ in the fireline he was referring to was not over the Youth Camp… it was over the Shrine of St. Joseph itself ( which was known to have only partially burned ).

              No report ever ‘detailed’ how the fire actually ‘flowed’ into the Youth Camp area.

              The Blue Ridge Hotshots photographed the flame front cresting over that ‘Rock Pile’ ridge just north of the Youth Camp… and then everyone got the hell out of there.

              Brian Frisby and Trueheart Brown were the last ones out, and as they left they told Gary Cordes ( over the radio ) that the fire was “Pushing down hard on them” in that area and there were already “Multiple Spots” as they were driving out.

              What happened after that is not known ( in detail ).

              SIDENOTE: With regards to the fire coming OVER the north ridge of the box canyon… there are actually photographs that prove that never really happened. Photos taken from the deployment site still show TREES ( unburned ) on the tops of that rock-pile ridge on the north side of the deployment site. So the fire must have flowed AROUND that north-side-ridge, and not OVER it.

              • Woodsman says

                It must have around the North ridge…or ran straight up the box canyon following the topographic features. Maybe the “vow of secrecy ” the firefighters swore themselves to was actually a friendly fire/manual ignition burning over the crew in the box canyon (where they had no business being), and killing them all? Food for thought maybe?

      • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

        Reply to Norb Szczurek post on January 7, 2019 at 11:55 am

        >> Norb Szczurek said
        >>
        >> Captain Brown has an interesting choice of words.

        Yes. It’s hard to read what he said ( to KC ‘Bucky’ Yowell ) any other way than to assume he was exasperated with having just had to stop some “idiots” from “burning THEMSELVES out” with some kind of badly-timed, badly-executed burnout attempt back there near the Shrine Youth Camp.

        There was no mention of this in Trueheart Brown’s own Unit Log, the SAIT interview with Blue Ridge never mentions it… and the ADOSH investigators were never allowed to interview any of the Blue Ridge Hotshots at all.

        Down below… you wrote the following…

        >> On December 17, 2018 at 10:54 pm Norb Szczurek said…
        >>
        >> I have said it before and I stand firm that I did see the video
        >> that has since disappeared . We did walk by the rock wall ( foundation)
        >> on my first visit to the site, and I remember that. In the video I
        >> remember two FF’s with drip torches – don’t remember helmet colors
        >> but yellow shirts and green pants (of course).

        …but you never ‘chimed in’ regarding the NEW video that Joy took at the point where the video was filmed, 100 yards west of where the pavement ends on Shrine Road.

        The video that Joy took at this rock wall/foundation site just 18 days ago, on December 20, 2018…

        https://youtu.be/zn9Jpi4Lxyw

        The photos that Joy took of the rock walls / foundations at this same location on June 11, 2015…

        https://youtu.be/ul0Brj0SK1k

        Does ANYTHING in EITHER of those two videos look familiar to you?

        Are those the rock walls / foundtations that YOU remember seeing in the video?

        • Woodsman says

          WTKTT said:

          “There was no mention of this in Trueheart Brown’s own Unit Log, the SAIT interview with Blue Ridge never mentions it… ”

          Have unredacted full unit logs from BR ever been made available? Or the SAIT interview transcripts? How about the helmet cam audio as Frisby, Brown & the 3 amigos were searching for GM after the deployment on atvs/utvs? THAT audio was absolutely strategically creatively “altered” by the scumbags that be, it was a joke. Point being, we obviously have serious gaps in the record that shouldn’t be relied upon to make concrete judgments of what did or did not happen back in the Shrine area. And I don’t think you are doing that but I wanted to throw this out there anyway.

          • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

            Reply to Woodsman post on January 7, 2019 at 11:54 pm

            >> Woodsman said…
            >>
            >> Have unredacted full unit logs from BR ever
            >> been made available?

            No.

            As far as is known… ONLY Mike Dudley, Jim Karels, Lead Investigator Brad Mayhew ( and others on the SAI team? ) are the ONLY ones who have ever had possession of the FULL ( unredacted ) Blue Ridge Unit logs… including the still-unknown number of complete PAGES that have always been ‘missing’ from the end of Brian Frisby’s handwritten Unit Log.

            It has never been proven… but it is highly likely that Dudley or Mayhew ( or others on the SAI team ) were the ones who actually did all the ‘redactions’ on those Unit Logs for USFS when they were finally forced to release them via FOIA request(s).

            Oddly enough… the missing full PAGES of Brian Frisby’s handwritten Unit Log that were completely ( and illegally ) left OUT of the FOIA response(s) cover the time just before he and Brown were about to evacuate the Youth Camp… and on through everything that happened that day following that.

            You can’t just ‘leave pages out’ of an FOIA response. That’s illegal.

            You can still ‘redact’ shit ( and claim some kind of FOIA exemption for the ‘blacked out’ parts )… but you can’t just REFUSE to release entire pages of documents. You still have to deliver the pages with whatever ‘blackouts’ you think you can get away with.

            >> Woodsman also said…
            >>
            >> Or the SAIT interview transcripts?

            Nope. Same deal. It is still unknown if what the SAIT released and called ‘Interview Notes’ bears any resemblance to what was actually said during those interviews… or whether there are ‘other’ pages or notes that were ( illegally ) never released at all.

            >> Woodsman also said…
            >>
            >> How about the helmet cam audio as Frisby, Brown & the
            >> 3 amigos were searching for GM after the deployment
            >> on atvs/utvs? THAT audio was absolutely strategically
            >> creatively “altered” by the scumbags that be, it was a joke.

            Yep. SOME of those ‘redactions’ were, in fact, moments when KC ‘Bucky’ Yowell and Aaron Hulburd were ‘speaking’ telephone numbers… and USFS claimed a ‘privacy’ exemption for those ‘bleep outs’… but the rest of the ‘redactions’ were done for what they tried to claim were ‘Sensitive Information’ reasons.

            That’s not even a valid FOIA exemption claim, under the law ( unless it has to do with National Security ).

            And who is to decide what is ‘sensitive’? The very people who don’t really want to obey the law and respond to FOIA requests in the first place?

            That’s why the law was created. To STOP that kind of behavior ( by making that kind of self-editing ILLEGAL ).

            >> Woodsman also said…
            >>
            >> Point being, we obviously have serious gaps in the
            >> record that shouldn’t be relied upon to make concrete
            >> judgments of what did or did not happen back in the
            >> Shrine area. And I don’t think you are doing that
            >> but I wanted to throw this out there anyway.

            No. I’m not doing that. The only reason I mentioned that Brown’s statement about having to stop “idiots” from “burning themselves out” appears nowhere else but in that Hulburd video recording was to make the same point you are making.

            ‘Concrete’ judgements require ‘Concrete’ evidence.

            But that being said… it’s also not possible to ignore evidence that IS available… and CAN be ‘verified’… and DOES show whether some things were happening at certain time… or NOT.

            Trueheart Brown’s statement is just one example.

            He said what he said. No question.

            How that fits into the ‘big picture’ remains to be seen / discovered.

            • Woodsman says

              Yep. Guess I got my hackles up a bit when you said this potential ignition recollection wasn’t in Brown’s unit log (that we can read) so it must not have occurred or was documented.

              Additionally, if PAGES of Frisbys unit log are absent as well……great googly, there is potential for serious pertinent information that would help answer a veritable mountain of questions about what actually happened on the fire.

              I sure would like to talk to both Brown & Frisby in person. They both strike me personally as honorable men who would like nothing more than to clear the record for the betterment of the industry and all the participants including citizen stakeholders whom incidentally pay for all this.

              Your rehash of the record to help guide my thought processes on an ongoing basis is immensely appreciated.

              The search for missing puzzle pieces continues…I will say, I think we are getting warmer each day…for whatever it’s worth…

              • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

                Reply to Woodsman post on January 8, 2019 at 8:15 am

                >> Woodsman said…
                >>
                >> if PAGES of Frisbys unit log are absent as
                >> well……great googly, there is potential for
                >> serious pertinent information that would
                >> help answer a veritable mountain
                >> of questions about what actually happened
                >> on the fire.

                You damn betcha.

                Including what Trueheart Brown might have been talking about when he told KC ‘Bucky’ Yowell, at 4:37 PM…

                “Fuckin’ making sure idiots aren’t burning themselves out. God DAAAMN!”

                Here is the final paragraph of the last page of Frisby’s handwritten Unit Log. He is describing the final moments of the evacuation of the Shrine Youth Camp area, when he and BR Captain Trueheart Brown were ‘pushing’ all of the other firefighters OUT of that area…

                ——————————————————————
                I then told ( Trew ) we needed to drive up the draw and push those guys out. Our crew had loaded up and left. As we got up the draw we ran into a group of 3 or 4 folks, we told them they needed to get in their trucks and leave. The individual said they were leaving but there were more and they weren’t listening. We kept driving up the draw and saw the rest of them pushing out. We told them they needed to hurry and we followed them out. When we got back to their trucks I stressed to them that they needed to hurry. We were getting multiple spots and…
                ————————————————————-

                That’s it.

                Frisby’s Unit Log ENDS right there… mid-sentence… and that’s the LAST PAGE of his Unit Log that was released.

                Anything Frisby had to say about any moment after that, for the rest of the day, has NEVER been seen publicly.

                It’s VERY strange that the last paragraph is him describing the scene out at the Youth Camp… and then the last sentence is…

                “We were getting multiple spots and…”

                The REST of that incomplete sentence, and the top of the next ( missing ) page could have been something like this…

                “…then we saw some idiots attempting to do a burnout
                on the side of Shrine road near some structures. We told
                them to stop, to keep them from burning themselves out, and
                to get the hell out of the area RIGHT NOW.”

        • Norb Szczurek says

          WTKTT,

          Its been so long since seeing the video that I cannot say with 100% certainty, but my brain keeps bringing me back to the first two still photos. Again its been awhile and the wall was not really my focus at the time. My focus was on the FF’s with drip torches, mainly because a former participant of IM had insisted to me that NO firing operations occurred. In my 38 years in the Fire Service I was skeptical of that statement, seeing first had on numerous occasions that firing operations do happen, aren’t always communicated or well planned, and usually take place when things are going to shit. By the time I went back to share the video with this person it had been pulled.

          Sorry I can’t be of better help on this one, just can’t say with 100% certainty. Thanks for your continued efforts, maybe we can piece enough together to finally eat this piece of the elephant, then move on to the next bite.

          Still curious about the “loop” fire perimeter around the Shrine area (thanks for location clarification)

          • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

            Reply to Norb Szczurek post on January 8, 2019 at 12:21 pm

            >> Norb Szczurek said…
            >>
            >> Its been so long since seeing the video that I cannot say
            >> with 100% certainty, but my brain keeps bringing me back to
            >> the first two still photos. Again its been awhile and the
            >> wall was not really my focus at the time.

            First and foremost… THANK YOU for hanging in there on this and your honest response. Yea… it’s been a long time.

            I never saw this video… at all… so that’s why all the questions and why I can’t offer any ‘recollections’ myself.

            As for those “first two still photos” in that ‘slideshow’…

            Even as sure as Sonny is that the video showed a burnout taking place right there about 100 yards west of where the Shrine Road pavement ends… he said those ‘still photos’ that Joy took at that exact location on June 11, 2015 are (quote) “NOT at all” (endquote) and (quote) “NOTHING like” (endquote) the same wall he says HE saw in the video.

            Here is that exchange from down below in this chapter…

            ————————————————————————
            On December 20, 2018 at 1:26 am, WTKTT asked Charlie ( Sonny )…

            Did you get a chance to look at those first THREE photos in that video ‘slideshow’ link?

            https://youtu.be/ul0Brj0SK1k

            Are those photos of the ‘rock wall/foundation’ you saw in the ‘burnout’ video?

            On December 21, 2018 at 11:24 am, Charlie ( Sonny ) replied…

            Not at all WTKTT. This is a rock wall but what I saw in the video is
            barely a foot or so in height and was a part of a foundation. We need
            a photo of the actual thing we saw. I never took one but someone will
            eventually get one and post it. Nothing like that photo I looked
            at on the site you posted.

            ————————————————————————-

            So even though Sonny was DENYING that the ‘rock wall’ photos Joy took on June 11, 2015 bear any resemblance to what HE saw in the original video… Sonny is still also absolutely positive that the video was showing TWO firefighters with drip-torches in that location on Shrine road, about 100 yards west of where the Shrine Road pavement turns to dirt.

            The ‘confusion’ about this ‘wall’ could be chocked up to the fact there were a number of walls / foundation thingies at that WALTRAUD property location. Maybe they were all visible in the video, at one point or another, and one person saw one of the walls that was there while maybe another person maybe saw a different one.

            >> Norb Szczurek also said…
            >>
            >> My focus was on the FF’s with drip torches

            More questions, then…

            Do you recall what the WIND was doing in the video and/or near the FF’s with the drip torches?

            Blowing HARD… or not at all? Trees swaying?

            Wind Direction? ( in relation to the camera? )

            Also… do you recall what the general LIGHT LEVEL was in the video?

            Was it getting DARK, in any way, or were the FFs and the background clearly visible… perhaps even with some SUN shining on the ground?

            Last question…

            You already said your ‘focus’ was not on any ‘wall’ that might have been visible in the video… but do you recall actually seeing any STRUCTURES, or any part of one?

            >> Norb Szczurek also said…
            >>
            >> a former participant of IM had insisted to me that
            >> NO firing operations occurred.

            There were actually ‘firing operations’ going on all over the place that day.

            The Engines and crews that were assigned to do structure protection up in Peeples Valley were all pretty much ‘burning shit out’ all day long around the houses they were told to protect. Plenty of photos and videos prove that.

            But as far as any large-scale burnouts go… the only ones known to have happened that day were the ones Granite Mountain attempted to do that morning, up at their ‘anchor point’ location ( until Air-Attack dumped SEATS on those burnouts )… and the burning out of Hays Ranch Road by Darrell Willis’ crews as they were evacuating from the Double-Bar-A Ranch up in Peeples Valley.

            >> Norb Szczurek also said…
            >>
            >> In my 38 years in the Fire Service I was skeptical of that
            >> statement, seeing first had on numerous occasions that firing
            >> operations do happen, aren’t always communicated or well
            >> planned, and usually take place when things are going to shit.

            And ( correct me if I’m wrong )… if an Engine is assigned to do structure protection and the Engine Boss decides a little ‘burning out’ is what is needed at that location… he/she doesn’t usually need anyone else’s ‘permission’ before just going ahead and doing that, right?

            Because that MIGHT be what happened out at the Shrine Youth Camp.

            There were THREE Engines ( and crews ) assigned to the Youth Camp Area.

            There were all part of SPGS1 Gary Cordes’ ‘Structure Protection Group 2’, and one of the floating orders was to do ‘structure protection’ wherever it might do some good.

            So regardless of the fact that the main ‘dozer line’ project was never completed, and the planned large-scale burnout was never initiated… I suppose it remains possible that one ( or more ) of those Engine crews at the Youth Camp Area might have taken it upon themselves to start doing what they believed were simple ‘structure protection burnouts’.

            Obviously none of that was successful ( if that is what happened at all ), because ALL of the structures at the Youth Camp and on the WALTRAUD property ended up burning to the ground… but that doesn’t mean some Engine Crew didn’t TRY and do something to ‘protect’ those structures, at some point, including putting some ‘fire on the ground’ out there.

            And maybe they didn’t feel like they needed ANYONE’s “special” permission to do that. Not SPGS1 Cordes. Not TFLD(t) Esquibel. Not anyone.

            >> Norb Szczurek also said…
            >>
            >> Sorry I can’t be of better help on this one, just can’t say
            >> with 100% certainty.

            Thank YOU. Not many people saw this video. It’s important to hear from anyone who says they did if there’s any chance of finding out how it fits into the puzzle.

            >> Norb Szczurek also said…
            >>
            >> Thanks for your continued efforts, maybe we can piece enough
            >> together to finally eat this piece of the elephant, then
            >> move on to the next bite.

            Yep. One bite at a time. Chew it up… swallow or spit… and then move on.

            >> Norb Szczurek also said…
            >>
            >> Still curious about the “loop” fire perimeter around the
            >> Shrine area ( thanks for location clarification )

            Not sure if you ever saw the following article… but it has a LOT of detail ( and LOTS of photos ) of how the fire actually came into the Shrine of St. Joseph…

            USA Today
            Article Title: Yarnell shrine scarred by wildfire but still standing
            Published: 3:00 a.m. ET April 20, 2014
            https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2014/04/20/yarnell-shrine-wildfire-still-standing/7923327/

            • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

              This is actually an even better article about what happened at the Shrine of St. Joseph.

              It has BEFORE and AFTER photographs…

              AZCENTRAL
              Article Title: In Yarnell fire’s path, a shrine is scarred but still standing
              Images of the Shrine of St. Joseph of the Mountains before and after the Yarnell Hill Fire.
              By: Richard Ruelas, The Arizona Republic
              Published: 11:02 p.m. MT April 19, 2014
              Updated: 11:39 p.m. MT April 19, 2014
              https://www.azcentral.com/story/news/arizona/2014/04/20/yarnell-wildfire-shrine-scarred/7933107/

              • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

                NOTE: The ‘BEFORE’ photos in the article above were actually taken on the afternoon of June 30, 2013, and they show the fireline coming into the Youth Camp area.

            • Norb Szczurek says

              WTKTT,

              Once again its been some time since seeing the video. I don’t recall seeing any structures, wind was not excessive and it was still light – not smoked out darkness. Again, sorry I cant provide more but I really don’t remember that much detail.

              In regard to “independent action” from resources it happens often. Especially during the initial attack phase of firefighting. However, once a team is in place “backfiring” operations have to be approved from Operations. Smaller scale firing (for structure protection, etc.)should be communicated with the next level of supervision, such as TFLD, Division, etc.. With that said it doesn’t mean it didn’t happen. In this situation, it could have been done in face to face communication or via cell phone. Maybe one of those statements like ” just do what you need to do to protect structures”. Kind of leaves things wide open.

              At some point these small scale firing operations become large scale unless someone is suppressing them once they have hit a certain point. Hopefully that makes sense.

              • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

                Reply to Norb Szczurek post on January 9, 2019 at 11:35 am

                >> Norb Szczurek said…
                >>
                >> Once again its been some time since seeing the video.
                >> I don’t recall seeing any structures, wind was not
                >> excessive and it was still light – not smoked out darkness.
                >> Again, sorry I cant provide more but I really don’t
                >> remember that much detail.

                Thank you… all of that matters.

                And thanks for picking up on ‘smoked out darkness’ versus ‘civil twilight darkness’.

                I know you know what ‘smoked out darkness’ looks like… and if you don’t recall seeing that… that matters with regards to nailing down WHEN this video might have been filmed.

                >> Norb Szczurek also said…
                >>
                >> In regard to “independent action” from resources it
                >> happens often. Especially during the initial attack
                >> phase of firefighting. However, once a team is in
                >> place “backfiring” operations have to be approved
                >> from Operations. Smaller scale firing (for structure
                >> protection, etc.) should be communicated
                >> with the next level of supervision, such as TFLD,
                >> Division, etc..
                >>
                >> With that said it doesn’t mean it didn’t happen.
                >>
                >> In this situation, it could have been done in face to face
                >> communication or via cell phone. Maybe one of
                >> those statements like ” just do what you need to do
                >> to protect structures”. Kind of leaves things wide open.

                Again… thank you. All important information.

                The 3 engine crews that were ( as of now, anyway ) known to be working back there in the Harper Canyon / Youth Camp area ( Peeples Valley, Sun City 103 and CYFD 59 ) were ALL working under the direct supervision of TFLD(t) Tyson Esquibel, who was under SPGS1 Gary Cordes direct supervision.

                Gary Cordes was ‘staged’ to the north, on the side of Highway 89, during the 4:00 PM to 4:30 PM timeframe… but TFLD(t) Tyson Esquibel was RIGHT THERE, physically present in the Youth Camp area, in that same timeframe.

                So whatever ‘approval’ any of those Engine Crews needed to try and protect the structures at the Youth Camp itself and/or the multiple structures on the WALTRAUD property… they might have received that ( as you suggest ) with ‘face to face communication’ with their own TFLD(t) right there on-site.

                It still actually remains a mystery what one of those engine crews was REALLY doing there in the Youth Camp area.

                I’m talking about Central Yavapai Engine 59, with crew boss Charlie Reyes.

                Darby Starr’s Sun City Engie 103 crew was the lead crew for putting in the ‘saw line’ from where the dozer stopped pushing ground and on over to the ‘Rock Pile’ that was to be the termination point for the main dozer line.

                Peeples Valley FFs Don Smith and Jacob Moder were helping them ( Starr’s crew ), apparently just as ‘swampers’.

                Peeples Valley FF Matt Keehner was up on the north ridge as a ‘lookput’ for Starr’s saw-team, and Peeples Valley FF Bob Brandon was staged at the Youth Camp with the 2 Peeples Valley FD vehicles ( Tender T-64 and Brush Truck E-54 ).

                Matt Keehner came down from his lookout spot up on that “Rock Pile” just shortly after Byron Kimball’s 3:30 PM weather alert about the approaching storms… but Keehner then just ‘staged’ near the PFVD vehicles along with Brandon until they both drove the PVFD trucks out to the Shrine parking lot.

                But it still remains unclear what that THIRD crew ( Charlie Reyes and CYFD E-59 ) were actually DOING there in the Youth Camp.

                As it became obvious the work was not going to be completed and the main dozer line was NOT going to be burned-off that afternoon… it remains possible that Charlie Reyes got permission from TFLD(t) Esquibel to just do whatever they thought might help protect those structures in ( and near ) the Youth Camp.

                But then, when Blue Ridge Hotshots Brian Frisby and Trueheart Brown arrived in that area in their Polaris Ranger UTV… there may have been a “WTF are you DOING!” moment… which then accounts for what Brown said to KC ‘Bucky’ Yowell about “idiots” trying to “burn THEMSELVES out”.

                CYFD Engine 59 Boss Charlie Reyes was never interviewed by anyone ( that we know of ).

                Neither the SAI team… nor the ADOSH investigators.

                He has always bee ‘under the wire’ on this, and it’s not known what he and his crew were really doing that day ( all day )… or what any of them might have heard ( in-person or over the radio ) or seen that day.

                The ONLY time his name ever ‘surfaces’ in any of the testimony is when Gary Cordes told the ADOSH investigators, in his interview, that Charlie Reyes was the one who told him that Granite Mountain had been ‘cut off’ trying to reach the Boulder Springs Ranch and had to ‘deploy’.

                That’s when Cordes also said his initial reaction to this news from Reyes was “BULLSHIT! They had PLENTY of time to get there”., proving without a doubt that SPGS1 Gary Cordes always knew exactly what GM was doing and that they HAD left the black that afternoon.

                >> Norb Szczurek also said…
                >>
                >> At some point these small scale firing operations
                >> become large scale unless someone is suppressing
                >> them once they have hit a certain point.
                >> Hopefully that makes sense.

                Makes perfect sense. Thanks again.

                There remains the possibility that at the time one of those engine crews might have been laying fire down to try and save structures in the Youth Camp area… it was just a last-dtich effort AS they were evacuating… and they really didn’t care about suppressing them once lit. Either they were going to help save structures as the main fire hit the area… or not.

                Such a ‘Hail Mary’ attempt in the Shrine area would explain the video, perhaps, and would certainly explain Captain Trueheart Brown’s statement about “idiots” nearly “burning THEMSELVES out”… but it would also then mean that whatever these guys were doing as they were rushing out of the Shrine area certainly had no impact on anything that happened way over in the box canyon.

                • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

                  Followup…

                  Regarding whether SPGS1 Gary Cordes was in the habit of giving his Crews the freedom to just “use their own judgement” for structure/point protection tactics… there is actually PROOF of that in the Aaron Hulburd video recordings.

                  After the deployment, at around 4:51 PM, Hulburd recorded a conversation between SPGS1 Gary Cordes and a Type 2 Crew that was just then arriving in Yarnell.

                  Cordes tells that Crew Boss to continue with point protection on the north end of Yarnell and to just “Use his own judgement”.

                  That conversation, as recorded in Hulburds’s M2U00266R, video, was as follows…

                  ————————————————————–
                  +3:44 ( 1651:13 / 4:51:13 PM )
                  (Structure Group Three): Structure group one, structure group three, on your TAC.

                  +3:50 ( 1651:19 / 4:51:19 PM )
                  (SPGS1 Gary Cordes): TONE. Three, one, go ahead.

                  +4:02 ( 1651:31 / 4:51:31 PM )
                  (Structure Group Three): Yea… I have a type two crew here. We just pulled into Yarnell. Where do ya need us at?

                  +4:08 ( 1651:37 / 4:51:37 PM )
                  (SPGS1 Gary Cordes): You can stage at the small… right there… right on the north side by the mini-storage… and why don’t you just take the north end a town. I’m down here on the south end.

                  +4:20 ( 1651:49 / 4:51:49 PM )
                  (Structure Group Three): Copy that. You want us to go back in the subdivision here… or just stage along the road?

                  +4:25 ( 1651:54 / 4:51:54 PM )
                  (SPGS1 Gary Cordes): It’s real dicey in the subdivision. Kinda use your judgement… uh… we’re just doin’ point protection… you know… bump and roll on it.

                  ————————————————————–

                  So it may very well be that all the Crews working under Cordis and Esquibel that day didn’t feel like they needed to check with either one of them when it came to laying some fire down in the name of ‘point/structure’ protection tactics.

                  They may have ALL been given permission to just “Use their own judgement”.

                • Woodsman says

                  I was following your train of thought until you said this:

                  “… but it would also then mean that whatever these guys were doing as they were rushing out of the Shrine area certainly had no impact on anything that happened way over in the box canyon.”

                  Can you restate this thought for me? Thanks.

                  • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

                    If putting some fire on the ground as a last-ditch effort to protect structures in the Youth Camp area happened as they were evacuating that area… then that would have been way too late ( timewise ) for that ‘fire on the ground’ to have had anything to do with how the GM Hotshots got killed.

                    They would have been making that ‘last-ditch’ effort circa 4:25 to 4:30 PM… as they were ‘pulling out’.

                    Byron Kimball took a photo from Highway 89 at 4:29 PM which shows the ‘middle bowl’ fireline already about to arrive at the mouth of the box canyon.

                    • Woodsman says

                      Ok. I understand that. You’re just referring to possible fires set as they were getting out of the area not necessarily fires that may have been set at earlier times in the afternoon. Thanks

                    • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

                      Reply to Woodsman post on
                      January 9, 2019 at 6:02 pm

                      >> Woodsman said…
                      >>
                      >> Ok. I understand that. You’re just
                      >> referring to possible fires set as
                      >> they were getting out of the area
                      >> not necessarily fires that may have
                      >> been set at earlier times in the
                      >> afternoon. Thanks

                      Yes. But don’t forget the ‘conundrum’ that we are still trying to work thru on this.

                      It can already be proven ( via other non-deleted photos and videos ) that if they made any moves to start fires in the Youth Camp area, for any reason, then they could not possible have even started doing that before about 4:20 PM, when the first ( strong ) wind gusts suddenly hit the Youth Camp area.

                      As long as anyone who saw the video claims the wind was ‘blowing the trees’… then 4:22 PM is still about the earliest possible time that video could have been filmed in that area.

                    • Woodsman says

                      My recollection of the video was not in high winds. It wasn’t “whipping” at all and it was not dark either. I believe it was earlier in the afternoon before the weather dramatically began its change. Low fuels: shrubs & grass, no timber.

                      I don’t think your assumption is correct on that at this juncture. There simply is not enough information available to make that leap.

                    • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

                      Reply to Woodsman post on
                      January 9, 2019 at 8:00 pm

                      >> Woodsman said…
                      >>
                      >> My recollection of the video was
                      >> not in high winds. It wasn’t “whipping”
                      >> at all and it was not dark either. I
                      >> believe it was earlier in the afternoon
                      >> before the weather dramatically
                      >> began its change.
                      >> Low fuels: shrubs & grass, no timber.
                      >>
                      >> I don’t think your assumption is
                      >> correct on that at this juncture.

                      Okay… then let’s ‘assume’, for a moment, that you really did see the same video that Sonny says he saw.

                      Now let’s forget, for a moment, that you are totally contradicting what HE says he is SURE he saw in that ( same ) video.

                      What TIME would YOU assign, as a guesstimate?

                      Keep in mind, however, the parameters of this conundrum.

                      The farther back you go in time from the 4:20 PM timeframe… the more existing ( non-deleted ) evidence there is that there was no ‘fire’ or ‘smoke’ ever ’emanating’ from the Shrine Road Youth Camp area.

                      That includes stuff like…

                      1. All the photos and videos the Blue Ridge Hotshots themselves took of the Youth Camp area as they were all getting back in their vehicles there at the Youth Camp.

                      2. All the photos that BR Hotshot Cory Ball took of the BR Hotoshots actually still WORKING out there on the dozer line, just a few hundred yards from where their vehicles were already parked at the Youth Camp. There is no ‘fire’ or ‘smoke’ ’emanating from either the Youth Camp area, OR anywhere on either side of the dozer line they are still actively ‘prepping’.

                      3. Christopher Mackenzie’s photos and videos ( may he rest in peace ) taken from a perfect vantage point out on the west ridge and looking straight back at the Youth Camp / dozer line.

                      Etc…. etc…

                      The earlier in the afternoon we get… the MORE evidence there is to contend with and have to ‘balance’ into any particular narrative.

                      It is ( as I said ) a ‘conundrum’.

                      >> Woodsman said…
                      >>
                      >> There simply is not enough
                      >> information available to make
                      >> that leap.

                      So WHEN do YOU think the video was filmed?

                      Are you thinking that some fire might have been laid down there… and then it went OUT?… to the point where it just doesn’t show up in lots of other ( existing, non-deleted ) photos and videos?

                    • Woodsman says

                      I’m not “totally contradicting” what Sonny claims to have seen in the youtube video. I’m like Norb, I focus on what I’m accustomed to seeing – wildland firefighters doing wildland firefighting things…like drip torches, number of personnel, the fuel break they’re burning off of, the fuels, the weather etc. There very well may have been an old block foundation in there but my brain wouldn’t concentrate on that.

                      The video that Sonny saw may not necessarily been the same one I saw. When things are happening, firefighters tend to break out the cell phone cameras – combination municipal/wildland folks do it more. Especially new people. I don’t take a lot anymore because, well, how many hundreds of pictures of fire do I need? But newer folks sure do. (especially aircraft ops) It’s probable more than one video was taken of “some action.” So we don’t really need to “assume” of “set aside for now” that Sonny and I are talking about the same exact video.

                      MY time estimate is certainly before everything went to shit because the sun was shining and it was not dark. The wind was not “whipping” is was low to moderate. The fuels were shrubs and grasses – no timber. (stated for the 3rd time now)So my estimate is some time well before the dramatic change in weather and associated burning intensity.

                      No, the fire didn’t go out. It changed behavior based on fuels, weather, and topographic influence.

                      I hear what you’re saying on the available evidence, I really do. I simply believe everything is not available to us at this time for final vetting of the scenario.

                      What I need is this:

                      A “simulated flyover” of the area of the Shrine and Youth camp travelling WSW toward and through the BSR, deployment zone, and ending on the saddle where the crew dropped in. I personally can take the fire progression map provided by the SAIR and crumple it up & file it into the round cabinet. I need before and after satellite images of the area to compare fuels and their burn intensities. I need a flyover showing topography of the entire area in a 3 dimensional rendition.

                      I NEEDED to interview everyone on the fire in person. I also NEEDED to walk the entire area within days of the incident in order to evaluate the physical evidence on the ground myself. But that was not available to me at the time so I’m working on this.

          • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

            Reply to Norb Szczurek post on January 8, 2019 at 12:21 pm

            >> Norb Szczurek said…
            >>
            >> Still curious about the “loop” fire perimeter around the Shrine
            >> area (thanks for location clarification)

            Below is a link to a video that makes it all clear.

            It’s a CROSSFADE video between the SAIT’s actual ( original ) Fire progression map, with a focus on the Shrine Road area and that strange ‘loop’ they had in the fireline there.

            It CROSSFADES from the SAIT map into an actual satellite view, showing that their little ‘loop’ only encompassed the Shrine of St. Joseph area, and NOT the Youth Camp further to the west.

            It also contains 2 aerial images taken immediately after the fire and showing the damage to the Shrine Road area. The aerial images are ‘annotated’ to show the exact location of the Shrine Road parking lot.

            What’s interesting about the aerial photographs is that it shows the SAIT didn’t even really get their own ‘fireline’ right. Yes… the Shrine of St. Joseph was partially spared… but the aerial photographs show that the fire went much further EAST on Shrine road than even their fire progression map indicated.

            Here’s a direct link to that ‘crossfade’ video ( also with aerial photos )…

            https://youtu.be/s4xUKhTT5cA

    • Charlie says

      WTKTT-Yes the wording could not but mean they were burning themselves out in a burn out–Otherwise he would have said something on the order of making sure they don’t get themselves burned up. Subtle difference but burning themselves out means they were doing some burning. It just adds to the evidence of the burn out in that area. However, the timing is the crucial thing to determine if it really had anything to do with trapping the GMHS. It is imperative to wait on more evidence to judge whether it did or not –yet with those high winds factored in and the idea that a burn out was preformed in there, it is certainly possible and should be addressed. A tribute to your ability to see the pertinent fine details.

    • Charlie says

      I know some of you love the retardant–it makes the plants grow like crazy so Yarnell will have a really nice wild fire down the line–we will see how that one is managed somewhere in the future. Remember the Alamo–Remember the Yarnell Wild Land Fire Fight–Grab your Pulaski and make boot tracks for Yarnell. So I hope you wild fire men don’t quit for Yarnell’s sake. They will be even bigger guinea pigs the next fire–But we will see how many lives are lost next time around from the after effects of the retardant.

      So here i go again about that retardant. Two things–It costs 2.50 -3.50 a gallon by my sources. So on the low end 500,000 gallons set the government via taxpayers a million and a quarter for the Yarnell Fire. Was the total overall cost at 7 million? I do know the cost is not cheap fighting these fires.

      What good did it do at Yarnell. I did stop Chief Ben Palms back burn during the Tenderfoot fire–but what about the windy fire of 2012? That fire went though those drops like water through a sieve. Ha, when Joy and I watched a drop early the morning of demise, it was from a small plane and so high up it scattered thin and later we learn it was in the wrong area anyway. That should not have mattered since it did no good except to upset Marsh as we were told.

      I doubt the use of retardant and its benefits and I have seen some wild fire superiors on line saying it is more a ploy to make the public happy. They enjoy seeing the orange and red drops and makes them think that these fires are really being retarded. That particular region manager said the drops were only of much use in sparse vegetation. Good Lord I can imagine the drops in that last California fire that killed so many citizens. So are these drops really doing that much. I wish they could have hit the GMHS with a drop but even then after what I hear, I doubt it would have sufficed to save them in that dense manzanita with those extreme wind conditions. Those flames were just too much and the winds fanned them–as one fire fighter said you might as well jump into a flaming chimney as to get in a canyon with a fire coming at you add 40 mph gusts and 30 mph steady.

    • calvin says

      Wtk.
      Could you take one of Rory Collins aerial photos from late in the day 6/30 that shows the shrine area, sesame Street area, etc and add some labels as to where important locations are.
      Like where blue ridge met up with Bucky, where the burnout operation supposedly occurred.
      It would be helpful to me, and from reading comments it could help others too.
      Thanks as always

      • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

        Reply to calvin post on January 9, 2019 at 4:02 am

        >> calvin said…
        >>
        >> Wtk.
        >> Could you take one of Rory Collins aerial photos from late in the
        >> day 6/30 that shows the shrine area, sesame Street area, etc and
        >> add some labels as to where important locations are.

        Done.

        New ‘crossfade’ video is here…

        https://youtu.be/BGyNWBVSaME

        Video Description:
        ————————————————————————————–
        A crossfade in/out of Air Attack Rory Collins’ photo named ‘LookingSE.jpg’ which he took at 2:41:48 PM on Sunday, June 30, 2013 while flying over the Yarnell Hill fire. The last half of the video is a ‘flyaround’ of the entire Yarnell area, including a closeup look at the Shrine Road / Youth Camp area. The yellow line on the ground in the video is the ‘dozer line’ that was pushed on the old road that connected the Shrine area and the Sesame Street area.
        ————————————————————————————–

        The ‘later’ afternoon photos taken by Rory Collins ( circe 3:40 PM ) were all shot looking south towards Yarnell while he was circling over the Peeples Valley area, so none of those are good ones to use to show the ‘Shrine area’ down there in Yarnell.

        I used that photo of his named ‘LookingSE.jpg’, which provides a pretty good aerial view of the Shrine / Harper Canyon area.

        That also happens to be the Rory Collins photo that you discovered was actually showing the Granite Mountain command vehicles ( Supt. and Chase trucks ) in the lower right corner, where they had been parked at the top of the Sesame clearing area right where the two-track out
        to the old grader starts.

        Just for reference… here is that post you made when you first discovered the GM vehicles in that ‘LookingSE.jpg’ photo…

        ————————————————————————————–
        On January 8, 2015 at 5:07 am, calvin said…

        I have a question concerning a Rory Collins photo that is numbered 45 of 49 and is titled LookingSE.jpg. There appears to be two trucks in the lower right corner of the image. There also appears to be a freshly cleared area around those two trucks. Are those the GM Supt and chase trucks?
        —————————————————————————————

        You were, of course, correct. Those ARE the GM ‘command vehicles’ seen parked there in the lower right corner of Collins’ aerial photo, complete with that ‘ring’ that Gary Cordes told ADOSH he had the dozer opertor push around the vehicles in case the fire showed up there.

        >> calvin also said…
        >>
        >> ( Locations )… Like where blue ridge met up with Bucky,

        Blue Ridge Hotshots Brian Frisby and Trueheart Brown ‘met up’ with Prescott National Forest employees Jason Clawson, KC ‘Bucky’ Yowell and Aaron Hulburd at 4:37 PM in the Shrine of St. Joseph parking lot.

        Frisby and Brown had just finished ‘chasing’ all of the other firefoghters out of the Youth Camp area and were now arriving at the Shrine of St. Joseph parking lot themselves, in their Polaris Ranger UTV.

        That’s when ( and where ) Trueheart Brown said ( to Yowell ), in response to his “How ya doin’, guy!” greeting…

        “Fuckin’ making sure idiots aren’t burning themselves out. God DAAAMN!

        That Shrine of St. Joseph parking lot location is clearly shown in the new video.

        >> calvin also said…
        >>
        >> …where the burnout operation supposedly occurred.

        In the video… that location ( at 100 yards west of where the pavement of Shrine road ends ) is marked with a RED balloon with the letter ‘W’ on it.

        The ‘W’ stands for “The Waltraud Property”, which is where those rock walls / foundations are located and where the multiple structures were before we SEE them burning down circa 5:30 PM in one of Aaron Hulburd’s videos.

        • Woodsman says

          WTKTT,

          Can you provide the distance between the SW edge of the Shrine parking lot and the deployment site?

          Refresh my memory on a link (or actual true data) to the RAWS weather observations for 6/30/13 between 1300 & 1530 hrs. What were the intervals in time on this data?

          An azimuth from the shrine to the BSR?

          Depending on some additional analysis and hopefully a few more details from you, I’m close to seeing something obvious.

          A reliably accurate aerial photo of the area you just made a video of both before and after (both being very close to 6/30/13) would be beneficial for what I need to look for.

          Thanks!

            • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

              Only the dozer ( Operator Paul Morin ),
              the HEQB/DOZB with him ( BR Hotshot Cory Ball )
              and the Blue Ridge Hotshots.

              They ( the BR Hotshots ) started ‘prepping’ that dozer line at 3:30 PM.

              Here is a photo of them as they were first ‘walking out’ onto the dozer line…

              At exactly 3:30:02 PM, HEQB/DOZB Cory Ball took the following photograph ( with his network-connected and time-correct iPhone 4S ) of the same dozer still there on that dozer line between the Sesame and Shrine area(s)…

              https://www.dropbox.com/sh/02ue6bnjp6nazkm/AAD72skvle6Io8jtO_DmLQn7a/Photos%20and%20Video/BlueRidgeHotshotsPhotosVideos/Ball?dl=0&preview=IMG_1883.JPG&subfolder_nav_tracking=1

              In that photo, taken looking northeast, the dozer is ‘blade up’ and just driving southwest, passing the Blue Ridge Hotshots who were about to start working there on the dozer line.

              Dozer operator Paul Morin was now possibly just heading back to where the dozer loboy trailer was staged down in Glen Ilah where the pavement of Lakewood and Manzanita ends.

              The Blue Ridge Hotshots only worked that line for about 30 minutes before being told ( by Brian Frisby ) to ‘pick it up’ and haul ass over to the BR Carriers parked over at the Shrine Youth Camp.

              One sawyer for BR said in his Unit Log that he only had time to use 1 tank of gas before being told to evacuate off the line.

          • Woodsman says

            Did GM’s lookout attempt to burnout around himself by the old grader while searching for a place to deploy his shelter? Was even 1 shred of fire put on the ground in this area? Please review the details concerning McDonough’s jam he found himself in while left to fend for himself. He was, after all, picked up by Brown and Frisby by chance and not by plan. What is McD’s actions that are known from the afternoon?

            • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

              Reply to Woodsman post on January 11, 2019 at 8:53 am

              >> Woodsman asked…
              >>
              >> Did GM’s lookout attempt to burnout around
              >> himself by the old grader while searching for
              >> a place to deploy his shelter?

              No.

              >> Woodsman also asked…
              >>
              >> Was even 1 shred of fire put on the ground in this area?

              No.

              All of the photographs taken by the GM Hotshots themselves from that ‘final rest spot’ up on the Weaver ridge ( and looking back towards Yarnell ) prove that.

              >> Woodsman also said…
              >>
              >> Please review the details concerning McDonough’s
              >> jam he found himself in while left to fend for himself.

              I did. He never put any fire on the ground. No way.

              >> Woodsman also said…
              >>
              >> He was, after all, picked up by Brown and
              >> Frisby by chance and not by plan.

              Brian Frisby was alone in the BR Polaris Range UTV when he ( in Frisby’s own words ) ‘stumbled across’ Brendan by the old-grader.

              Brown had gotten out of the Ranger to let Frisby go up and meet with Eric Marsh alone… and Brown was, at the moment Frisby ‘stumbled across’ McDonough… walking along on the dozer line and supervising things there.

              >> Woodsman also said…
              >>
              >> What is McD’s actions that are known from the afternoon?

              Spinning the weather, taking photographs and videos.

              McDonough shot some of the scariest known photos and videos of that ‘near collision’ between the VLAT and the Skycrane helicopter.

              He would occasionally ‘check in’ over the GM Crew-Net with Steed and Marsh… but even in his own ADOSH interviews he said he pretty much stopped doing that after a while because every time he tried to tell them something… they would say they could SEE it for themselves and didn’t need him to tell them about it.

              It was a worthless assignment… and it is still possible they just sent McDonough down there because he still wasn’t feeling well and just couldn’t keep up with everyone else that day.

              OR… he had been driving the rest of them crazy and they just wanted to relocate him and be rid of him for the day.

          • Woodsman says

            Who exactly was working at the BSR on the afternoon of 6/30/13? I know that they had a portable water tank setup there. What else was going on there?

            • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

              Reply to Woodsman post on January 11, 2019 at 8:56 am

              >> Woodsman asked…
              >>
              >> Who exactly was working at the BSR on the afternoon
              >> of 6/30/13?

              As far as we know… NO ONE.

              According to the front-gate security footage… some engines came and went… but none of them were ever ‘assigned’ to be working there.

              Lee and DJ Helm were not there ( at home ) in the morning, but they WERE there in the afternoon and DURING the burnover… and they have both testified on multiple occasions that they never, EVER saw ANY fireman that day.

              Not once. Zero. Zip. Nada.

              The first ‘fireman’ that DJ Helm ever saw that day was after the burnover, when Jason Clawson scared the shit out of her and came walking up to her after having been out at the deployment site.

              Jason Clawson was the one who informed her that there were now 19 dead bodies just 600 yards west of their property.

              >> Woodsman also said…
              >>
              >> I know that they had a portable water tank setup there.

              That got set up ( and filled with water ) the night before.

              >> Woodsman also said…
              >>
              >> What else was going on there?

              Not much. See above. Lee and DJ Helm NEVER saw ANYONE in the hours leading up to ( and during ) the burnover.

              • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

                Correction for above…

                I said…

                >> Lee and DJ Helm were not there ( at home ) in
                >> the morning, but they WERE there in the
                >> afternoon and DURING the burnover…

                Lee and DJ Helm WERE actually there, at home, on the morning of Sunday, June 30, 2013.

                They left at some point in the late morning to go up to Peeples Valley to see what the fire was actually doing.

                They left Peeples Valley around NOON, ran some errands in Yarnell, and then returned home ( to the Boulder Springs Ranch ) around 2:00 PM

                They remained there, at home, from 2:00 PM onward through the eventual burnover.

                They still say they never saw ANY fireman at their property that day, at any time they were home, until AFTER the burnover.

          • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

            Reply to Woodsman post on January 11, 2019 at 8:29 am

            >> Woodsman said…
            >>
            >> Can you provide the distance between the SW edge of the
            >> Shrine parking lot and the deployment site?

            2.40 kilometers
            1.49 miles
            2,624 yards
            7,872 feet

            >> Woodsman also said…
            >>
            >> Refresh my memory on a link (or actual true data) to
            >> the RAWS weather observations for 6/30/13 between
            >> 1300 & 1530 hrs.

            Wildfire Today
            Article Title: Weather conditions during the tragedy at Yarnell Hill
            Published: July 4, 2013 – By Bill Gabbert
            https://wildfiretoday.com/2013/07/04/weather-conditions-during-the-tragedy-at-yarnell-hill-and-where-do-we-go-from-here/

            Just below the following paragraph in the article, there is
            an actual IMAGE of the Stanton RAWS Weather Station ( 4 miles south of Yarnell Hill Fire ) Tablular Listing: June 29, 2013 – 18:01 through June 30, 2013 – 19:01 MST

            ———————————————————–
            From 10 a.m. until 4 p.m. local time at the Stanton RAWS weather station four miles south of the fire, the wind was from the south-southwest or southwest, but between 4:01 p.m. and 5:01 p.m. it began blowing from the north-northeast at 22 to 26 mph gusting up to 43 mph — a 180-degree change in the wind direction.
            ———————————————————–
            Stanton RAWS Weather Station ( 4 miles south of Yarnell Hill Fire )
            Tablular Listing: June 29, 2013 – 18:01 through June 30, 2013 – 19:01 MST

            ( IMAGE containing data in column format ).

            Column HEADINGS…

            Time (MST), Temperature, Dew Point, Relative Humidity, Wind Speed (mph), Wind Gust (mph), Wind Direction, Quality check, Solar Radiation, Precipitation accumulated ( inches ).
            ————————————————————–

            Here is a direct link to that ‘Stanton RAWS’ data image contained in that July 4, 2013 ‘Wildfire Today’ article…

            https://i2.wp.com/wildfiretoday.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/06/Data-from-Stanton-weather-station-near-Yarnell-AZ-June-30-2013.jpg?w=498&ssl=1

            ( Continued next ‘Reply’ due to 2-links-per-post limit )…

            • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

              >> Woodsman also said…
              >>
              >> What were the intervals in time on this ( weather ) data?

              One hour.

              >> Woodsman also said…
              >>
              >> An azimuth from the shrine to the BSR?

              The exact GPS coordinates for the same SW edge of the Shrine parking lot’ used in the distance calculation above…

              Decimal Latitude: 34.227189
              Decimal Longitude: -112.752858

              The exact GPS coordinates for the center of the roof of the main residence at the Boulder Springs Ranch…

              Decimal Latitude: 34.218868
              Decimal Longitude: -112.771080

              Online GPS-To-Azimuth calculator…

              https://www.omnicalculator.com/other/azimuth

              Results…

              Looking FROM the Shrine parking lot TOWARDS the BSR…

              Distance: 1.1892 miles
              Azimuth: 241.1 degrees

              Looking FROM the BSR back TOWARDS the Shrine parking lot…

              Distance: 1.1892 miles
              Azimuth: 61.08 degrees

    • Gary Olson says

      Fuckin’ A HAL 9000…you are on FIRE! I don’t have anything to constructive to add…I just wanted to point out how scary smart you are….again. Upgraded high speed microprocessor?

      • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

        Reply to Gary Olson post on January 10, 2019 at 7:41 pm

        >> Gary Olson said…
        >>
        >> Upgraded high speed microprocessor?

        Perhaps.

        Rumor has it that when I said something about not being able to survive a 12-gauge shotgun blast straight into the back at close range… some kind of upgrade was scheduled.

        The reason I’m not sure it happened is because they say there was a video of it… but I haven’t seen it myself… and I’m just trying to find out details about it.

        SOMETHING happened. I’m still just not sure, myself, what yet.

        • Gary Olson says

          Oh…well,..if you think “something” happened, I’m going to “shut the fuck up”: because if something did happen, we need to know what it was, that’s fer damn sure.

    • Charlie says

      Thanks, WTKTT for those details–whew a bunch of different Departments doing their thing in there so Trueheart’s words would be appropriate to a burning going on that would trap themselves or one of the other crews in there. It did not sound like the main fire coming at them but their own burning was on the dangerous side.

      • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

        Reply to Charlie post on January 11, 2019 at 10:11 pm

        >> Charile said…
        >>
        >> Thanks, WTKTT for those details–whew a bunch of different
        >> Departments doing their thing in there so Trueheart’s words
        >> would be appropriate to a burning going on that would trap
        >> themselves or one of the other crews in there. It did not
        >> sound like the main fire coming at them but their own
        >> burning was on the dangerous side.

        The ‘main fire’ WAS ‘coming at them’.

        It was coming over the north ridge.of the Harper Canyon / Youth Camp area.

        That’s why Blue Ridge Hotshots Frisby and Brown were actively
        ‘chasing’ those 3 crews OUT of the Shrine Youth Camp area.

        ——————————————————————————–
        Peeples Valley Fire Department
        1 Water Tender – T-64
        1 Brush Truck – E-54
        Four crewmen…
        Jacob Moder, Ronald Smith, Bob Brandon and Matthew Keehner

        Sun City Fire Department
        1 Type 6 Engine – Sun City Engine 103 – LIC# G-264EF
        Four crewman…
        Darby Starr ( Engine Boss ), Coy Boggler, Jarret White and James Flint

        Central Yavapai
        1 Type 6 Engine – E-59 – LIC# G-682DV – Front Plate: CEY-P59
        Four crewman…
        Charlie Reyes ( Engine Boss ), Ryan Ferris, Steve Emery, Matt Mcfadden
        ——————————————————————————–

        But it’s still hard to interpret what Trueheart Brown said to KC ‘Bucky’ Yowell any other way than AS Brown and Frisby were ‘chasing them out’… they witnessed one ( or more ) of these crews trying to do some kind of ‘last-ditch-effort’ burnout, but doing it VERY badly…. to the point where they were more likely to “burn THEMSELVES out” rather than accomplish anything useful.

        If that turns out to be all that really happened… it will remain unbelievable that we would only now be learning about it… but it still means that would definitely NOT have had anything to do with the eventual fate of the Granite Mountain Hotshots way over in the box canyon.

        • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

          Don’t forget…

          Even without any testimony about people putting any ‘fire’ on the ground in the Youth Camp area… there was still enough testimony and evidence about what a screwed up operation that was in ‘Youth Camp’ area alone that the The Arizona Division of Safety and Health ( ADOSH ) included this ‘possible entrapment’ situation in their ‘willful serious’ citations against Arizona Forestry.

          The ‘willfull serious’ citations issued by ADOSH totaled $545,000 ( the maximum allowed by law ), and included FOUR ‘entrapment’ situations on June 30, 2013…

          1. The near-fatal-entrapment of 30+ firefighters working for SPGS2 Darrell Willis up at the Double-Bar-A Ranch on Hays Ranch Road.

          2. The near-fatal-entrapment of those 3 Engine crews working for SPGS1 Gary Cordes and TFLD(t) Tyson Esquibel in the Harper Canyon / Youth Camp area.

          3. The near-fatal-entrapment of Brendan McDonough out by the old-grader.

          4. The actual fatal-entrapment of 19 Granite Mountain firefighters out in the box canyon.

          It’s a shame that ADOSH ended up SETTLING with Arizona Forestry over these citations and fines.

          If they had not… then there would have been a no-shit COURT ‘hearing/trial’… including calling witnesses UNDER OATH, and we would know so much more about what really happened with ALL of these ‘incidents’ at the Yarnell fire.

  9. WantsToKnowTheTruth says

    Reply to Charlie post on January 2, 2019 at 11:35 pm

    >> Charlie said…
    >>
    >> Well Joy has interviewed two different fire people that were
    >> in the Shrine Area including Prescott and Flagstaff firemen–so
    >> it could be that the Peeples Valley Fire Department did not
    >> do the burning because they were not qualified but it seems
    >> to me that people in that Yarnell incident were doing a lot
    >> of things they were not qualified at. I have no idea who they
    >> were but two things I am absolutely certain of is that there
    >> were men using drip torches in that video above the Shrine area

    Understood.

    All that remains, then, is to try and figure out what TIME ( on Sunday, June 30, 2013 ) that could have possibly been taking place.

    >> Charlie also said…
    >>
    >> …and I am also certain that Chief lied through his teeth at
    >> Peeples Valley concerning his crew being in the area when
    >> he consented to an interview with Joy and I was present.

    He must be quite the moron, then, if he was trying to deny he had a crew ( and 2 vehicles ) in the Shrine area that day… when that has ALWAYS been ‘public information’ and the details are contained in BOTH of the ‘official’ investigation reports.

    >> Charlie also said…
    >>
    >> If the wind shift could be so bad by 3:45 that day to cause
    >> the crews to evacuate the area …

    No one was ‘evacuating’ the Shrine Youth Camp area at 3:45 PM.

    That’s way too early.

    It would be another 37 minutes before that even started to happen.

    According to Esqubel’s own ‘Unit Log’ and ADOSH testimony…

    TFLD(t) Tyson Esquibel didn’t instruct his ‘Task Force 2’ crews working the Shrine Youth Camp area to even begin ‘evacuating’ that area until 4:22 PM, when the wind suddenly ‘picked up’ in the Youth Camp area ( in his own words ) “all of a sudden… from 0 to 45 mph” and ( also in his own words ) the visibility in that Shrine Youth Camp area dropped way down.

    It would then take another 8-10 minutes for them all to start heading out of the Youth Camp area, and they all ended up passing the Shrine of St. Joseph ( as seen in the Hulburd videos ) in the 4:35 PM timeframe.

    Blue Ridge Hotshots Brian Frisby and Trueheart Brown were the absolute LAST ones out of the Shrine Youth Camp area. They left there at 4:35 PM and then pulled up to the Shrine parking lot at exactly 4:37 PM… just 2 minutes before Jesse Steed’s first botched MAYDAY call would hit the radio at 4:39 PM.

    >> Charlie also said…
    >>
    >> …then that burn out certainly would have had time to trap the GMHS crew.

    If the ‘wind was whipping the trees’ in that video shot 100 yards west of where the Shrine Road pavement ends… then it really could not have been filmed any earlier than about 4:22 PM. That is ( apparently ) when that kind of ‘wind’ first started happening that day, in that exact area.

    Do you recall what the general ‘light levels’ were in that video?

    Was is getting all ‘dark’ and whatnot… or did it appear to be clear and/or even still some ‘sun’ shining?

    • Charlie says

      WTKTT– No it was not getting dark during the video as I remember the light level was so the video was clearly visible. The time they evacuated I gathered from Woodsman’s posting of 15:45 but I was not clear on that time. The video must have been taken along about that time frame.

      One thing after seeing how burnouts and back burns are decided, it would be obvious to me that it was a proper and needed procedure in that area. First at the time that would have been taking place the winds would have been blowing in the direction of Peeples Valley –NW. The area directly opposite the Shrine was a boulder mountain devoid of much vegetation. So a burnout or back burn, whatever term would be proper for what they were doing there, would clear that area with no danger to structures below the burn. However when the winds reversed to the SW, some of the Shrine and a few other structures there were all that were affected. The burn did protect Yarnell Proper but when it went out of the canyon it challenged Glen Isla and especially the funnel that took the winds up the death canyon and near Helms Ranch. Helms Ranch was by no means unaffected even with the defensible space they had made two weeks before the fire. The walls were scorched and certain old vehicles about the place had tires burned off with burn damage similar to what we saw at the old Grader. By the way, not only did the grader have its tires burned away but even the iron plate on the floorboards had turned blue due to the heat. Some old carnation cream cans had the lead melted out of the center-Joy took photos of those cans–oddly in the old days lead was used to seal the center of those cans. But it went to show that Donut was headed there to the grader since it had maybe 50 ft or so clear around it to make it what he thought would be a safe place to deploy. That showed how little those wild land fire fighters understood the heat release capacity of manzanita–something Wooten and Morrison in their paper said equaled the energy release of an atomic bomb Hiroshima size ever 15 minutes. Their review of the fire mentioned what I saw in action that day–any attempt of even an army to delay that fire would have been futile and as we saw the Jumbo Jet loads of retardant did nothing to delay the fire that day. Well they did on top of the mountain in sparse vegetation where it would have burned itself out anyway as it tried to go down the other side of the Weavers.

      So yes, I believe the experienced wild land fire fighters would agree that it would have been proper procedure to make a back burn in that Shrine Area. But it seems that just as the bosses Marsh and Steed did not know the potential of energy release they were attempting to outrun through the thickest of fuel they could be in, they also did not seem to understand that the wind would change despite them and us looking at the Thunderstorms to the NE in the higher elevations of Prescott and despite them receiving meteorological reports in regular and short intervals. They did not need the reports, they had visuals of the storm and with that and the fact you would be facing a “flaming front” releasing atom bomb energy you can see that their elite knowledge and fireman’s training had no effect on their common sense judgement. I saw it and perhaps my lack of training in that field saved my ass–shit who would want to endanger ones person by getting trapped in that entanglement of manzanita knowing that the winds would reverse at any moment? But those bossed did and not only that had the responsibility of their men at stake . I believe Marsh deserved to go it alone, but when he risked all those young lives needlessly then his actions spoke loudly as to his poor abilities as a wild land fire fire fighter. These of course are my own opinions and not the opinions of the elite wild land fire fighter commanders that managed that fire at Yarnell in June of 2013. If you let me hand out awards, I would give those bosses a failure of the century at wild land fire fighting award. But of course they do not want to accept such an award–You can paint over shit but the shit is still there and will even mix into the clean paint.

      Well I have a nice coating of icy snow out side. but already melting. Fortunately I am able to type well enough and keep my wood stoves burning (I have two for this long trailer but only burn one at night usually.) Well I do know how tough it would be to be a wild land fire fighter–sleeping out as they did in the rough and cutting and digging line while facing fires. I have experienced a lot of that myself–well the sleeping out on the ground part at least. I like the easier job of underground mining and never minded that work so I can understand if you have that kind of job how you could get attached to it. Maybe those young firemen and especially the wild land fire fighter bosses that are coming up will take notice of this incident if it ever comes public—the young wild land firefighter’s biggest danger would be his boss that if he has no business in that business can and will get you killed–unless you are savvy enough to protect your own life. Hard to do when you have a military type organization with bosses acting like they are secret elite men with no chance of error and higher bosses that willingly transform a bad and failed operation into a heroic effort worthy of awards.

      • Charlie says

        Yes WTKTT–Joy has evidence about the Shrine incident but good reason at this time not to report that or indicate where she obtained the testimonies. I am not privy to the information but if Joy says it is there then I can count on her integrity.

        Now I had remembered some of the wisdom of Gary Olson and his descriptions of the Amanda behavior. Of course he is much more familiar with that that I would be. My experience was cursory –that encounter I had by being in court when she made false accusations against Joy Collura. You could see that the Judge was in her favor only because of the grieving widow front and the good old camaraderie among the Prescott set. It brings to mind her status as Valedictorian of her graduating class –something my sister Betty also was in her high school graduating class–or perhaps it was Salutatorian of her Lordsburg Graduating Class. Either way it produces a person with very high self esteem–sometimes so high it is very hard for others to live up to their expectations. I see in the movie that Amanda was a pusher and had plenty of suggestions to get Eric to where he would form the GMHS group and get them certified.

        I know in my sisters case she became the head secretary in the very secret works at Los Alamos, NM involved in the government nuclear work. She actually hid me in the closet when a Physicist came to visit. I do not know why exactly (I was 19 at the time)–maybe because I was a ragged looking young cowboy and she did not want to be embarrassed by my presence in front of such an elite person? Well she finally divorced her husband Ted–(he was superintendent of roads there and I always liked him–he wasn’t a stuffed shirt at all.) But I think he could never meet her high expectations. I am still a country hick maybe near red neck status–I can use an outdoor shitter and still talk to any bat hided person without worry that he will look too far down on my status and if he does that is his problem, not mine. But what I could see with Amanda and her exposition in the movie, Eric was about to loose her and if you add that into the brew, he had turmoil in more than one direction. Whew he may have had a tough time fulfilling her expectations and his own with it. Some women have been known to drive their men totally insane.

        Well when we met him on the mountain he certainly seemed nice enough but to me almost detached from the world. He certainly kept his distance from the men but then I am not familiar with Hot Shot procedures The men as we passed them had a dreadful look–Joy has mentioned that I said they looked like they were on their death march as I passed them. Because of my poor hearing, I might have spoken louder than I should have. But they certainly were not fresh and Marsh did look and go like a determined person.

        We had heard that he had been off for some time and there was something about a bicycle accident he had suffered.. As it stands, it should have been and is important to have investigated the state of mind situation of Marsh at the time and immediately before the deaths of his crew and his suicide run to be with them.

        Gary has given some very insightful information on much of that situation. But I think there is plenty more that can be revealed. I know Joy in her FOIA from the Prescott Fire Department uncovered some very pertinent information about Marsh but by law could not report anything she learned. The type FOIA she obtained was such that lawfully she could not reveal those Marsh reports about behavior and demeanor.

        So the story goes on and rightfully so because only the surface has been scratched so far–much more to be revealed even at this late hour in the process.

        Oh my someone is saying–can’t you IM folks just go away and leave it alone. Just accept what has been said –Marsh and Steed were heroes doing what Willis said they had to do–Protect those structures and go though those manzanita and cactus where no ordinary citizen could go. Well not many of the old timers in wild land fire fighting have bought the story line put out–they are not happy with the bull crap and there are a few good citizens that support their views.

        We continue to seek more truth about the debacle and there are plenty truths that are still under wraps.

      • Charlie says

        It came to mind that some of the wild land fire fighters and others with information about the Yarnell Debacle would like to share but anonymously. If there is information you have about the fire it would be a good thing to get hold of Joy and her website. However, one of the commanders that had my phone number wanted to talk to me–gave me some tips. If there is anything you want posted without your name attached or you do not want your email on this site for reasons I could understand–retribution possibilities, feel free to email me at [email protected]. If you want to talk to me personally I will give you my phone number if I see you are legitimate.

        There is so much information out there and I have been with Joy on occasions where people did want to share but were in fear of having their identity exposed. Well some were threatened with their careers and no one want their career jeopardized. So be assured this old fellow will protect that and if you want to use a fictitious handle, fine with me. The more information that is verifiable, the better–but even if it is not, it is worth evaluating or thinking about.

        We are in this for the long run and anything that helps edge us toward the facts will help and eventually do some good to the folks that have suffered for this tragic work.

        My son received a million for his loss of arm–these folks barely got enough to buy a decent vehicle for their loss of their loved ones–a shame in itself. I believe all that should be reviewed because of false information that has been promoted to the general public. The old wild land fire fighters are not fooled and want the truth because it will help and save the new ones following their paths. They are all heroes doing good works for people and they deserve safe improved wild fire fighting that comes from knowing the truth about how these failed operations happened and how to change that.

        I farther feel the men are underpaid and pay at least for the grunt should at least be doubled with the billions that the government has laid aside. This is risky business and as an underground miner I was making 26 per hour back in the 70’s. That is now 49 years ago–miners now make upwards of $50 per hour. That is risky business also–I know from suffering a mine cave in myself–but fortunately and even though it put me out of the contract mining business, I was not burned to death because some faulty boss caused my death.. So to me $15 an hour is a pittance for the risk you fellows take and that settlement given people that lost their loved ones was a shame to the FS and the State of Arizona.

        I bid you good work and good fortune in the work you love. I did love mining and the rewards of doing good work there. I did not mind logging either or any of the jobs in life I have had the fortune to do. Cowboy was never good pay–back in the 60’s it was 5 a day and meals and having to work sun up to sun down–even to do dishes as a young cowboy. You got kicked out of the bunk house for shooting rats off the rafters. Well, but they did not mind the dead rats, just the holes in the old tin roof. 22’s make small holes. But even that has improved greatly these days. We are a rich country–take care of our first responders and our heroes fighting the dangerous wild fires.

    • Joy A Collura says

      REPLY IN CAPS:

      WantsToKnowTheTruth says

      JANUARY 3, 2019 AT 1:23 AM

      Reply to Charlie post on January 2, 2019 at 11:35 pm

      >> Charlie said…
      >>
      >> Well Joy has interviewed two different fire people
      TO BE FACTUAL “TWO” SHOULD BE “TOO MANY”…AND I AM TRYING TO FACT CHECK AND DO ALL MY AREA PROPERLY BEFORE I PRESENT THAT AREA.

      SOME WILL NOT LIKE ME ADDRESSING THEM TO THE WORLD TO THE POINT IT WILL CAUSE SOME REACTIONS
      .
      I HAVE TO ENSURE I NOTIFIED THEM FIRST HAND BEFORE I PROCEED THERE,.

      that were
      >> in the Shrine Area including Prescott and Flagstaff firemen–so
      >> it could be that the Peeples Valley Fire Department did not
      >> do the burning because they were not qualified but it seems
      >> to me that people in that Yarnell incident were doing a lot
      >> of things they were not qualified at. I have no idea who they
      >> were but two things I am absolutely certain of is that there
      >> were men using drip torches in that video above the Shrine area

      THE VIDEO WAS WITH A ROCK WALL…THE BEST DESCRIPTION I READ SO FAR WAS WOODSMAN WITH MUCH OF SONNY’S- THEY ARE SOUNDING TO ME LIKE SEPARATE VIDEOS SO I AM GOING TO ASK BOTH WOODSMAN AND SONNY- THE WIND SEEMS TO BE DIFFERENT BETWEEN YOU BOTH AND I AM GLAD I AM WORKING WITH SPECIALISTS IN METEOROLOGY AND ABOUT TO SEE THEM IN THE NEXT FEW DAYS IF I CAN GET LESS DEPLETED HERE….TRYING TO REST…

      MY MEETING WITH THEM IS TO COLLABORATE MY DATA WITH THEIRS TO ENSURE THIS SPECIFIC AREAS ARE DETAILED AND DOCUMENTED…

    • Joy A Collura says

      https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC6MgYQhLVBq92QwaOYVW_ig/videos

      >> Charlie also said…
      >>
      >> …and I am also certain that Chief lied through his teeth at
      >> Peeples Valley concerning his crew being in the area when
      >> he consented to an interview with Joy and I was present.

      He must be quite the moron, then, if he was trying to deny he had a crew ( and 2 vehicles ) in the Shrine area that day… when that has ALWAYS been ‘public information’ and the details are contained in BOTH of the ‘official’ investigation reports.

      THE AUDIO IS HERE: OB THAT LINK ABOVE ON ONE OF THESE 2 AREAS-
      Peeples Valley FD Chief Bob Heckman voicemails, phone conversations, and a meeting
      177 views
      4 months ago

      7:00
      Chief Bob Brandon Hangs Up On Eyewitness to Yarnell Hill Fire
      154 views
      4 months ago

      • Charlie says

        Thanks Joy–Oh I knew you had proof of everything–Your had that little recorder I gave you–I have since bought another but still never figured the damn thing out. Same with a browning game camera that set me back 150–shit with my bat hides you would think I could do technology. Well when I went back to the University I was using a slide rule to finish up math classes–the students said whats that? They were already programming computers by then.

        So I am not sure how the wind was blowing but it had to be west of the road since the trees were bending and by that time with that force it had already reversed. There is some question of time reversal. I felt it on the mountain–I think you did as well but I do not remember the exact time we topped the Weavers after I returned to where you were at the two track I wonder if at some point you remembered that I said one thing (besides having to live with a bad conscience and my worry about your safety) I told you well if I had not gone back the state would likely have charged me with murder. I had the experience that you did not have since much of my life had been spent outdoors living in tents, etc. and following my old prospector Dad.

        So with all the cover up and so forth with the truth so diligently hidden by the powers that ran the show at Yarnell, I have come up with another tack. Part of it involves a Justice program I had been watching on TV. Englands most prolific murder was a man named Peter Suscliff. He was finally captured after 13 murders of prostitutes and college women over a long period of time. His modus operand was to use a ball peen hammer to knock them out then stab them in the neck and chest multiple times–50 or more. He was given a life sentence in 1981 and later found to be schizophrenic so that it was determined that his murder habit was incurable so a judge decided he would have his sentence added so there would be no chance of parole. Serial Killers are like Burglars and Child Molesters–very few if any are cured and upon release you see a high recidivism rate in all those types. One of my courses was abnormal psychology and one of my thesis involved recidivism–actually publish in a psychological journal at the time–so that long time research paper gave me at least some insight into human abnormal behavior.

        Now Mr. Suscliff, the felon he was had also had also attempted to kill 7 other women so his tally would have been 2o had he been successful. He would have of course kept killing had he not been stopped by chance because an officer had seen him as suspicious and found that his license plate did not match his car. The presence of a ball peen hammer gave him away.

        So we fast forward from 1981 when those serial murders were found out to 2013 when a mass murder incident happened–I believe mass murder and suicide involving 19 men and one attempted murder beside. I say this because there was not one man that had long time wild land fire fighting experience and walked the area on the two track above the death canyon that said he would have taken his crew down there. I say it because you and I were on that two track some time before they got to where you were, then descended into that death trap that even I as a non-fire fighter recognized was a death trap if we were to decend dow there. You see, with your knowledge of fire fighter training you know he broke every rule in the book. Marsh had to have even known where the fire was, its rate of advance and exactly when the 45 mph winds were to be arriving. With every rule broken, he had to cajole and order Jesse Steed into doing the unthinkable. Steed had to believe he might be able to beat the less than 50-50 chance he had of getting his men through that dense brush with winds about to fiercely change direction right at them. At any rate we have all the facts and I have come to believe that Mr. Marsh would be highly suspect of a mass murder suicide because he knew what he was doing and even set himself up to die with the men.

        It would be interesting to run a psychological profile on Marsh–look at all his background, at what was going on with his superiors, and at the fact he may have been loosing his pride and joy–the crew he had so ardently worked to achieve as a recognized Hot Shot Crew. I do know there was some friction and apparently he was being worked out of the thing he had worked so hard at creating–the hybrid wild land fire fighting GMHS crew. Even Amanda’s take in the movie shows that intense desire he had to be that crew boss–to be recognized as the man of the year. When some people see the end of a position they so cherished, they go berserk. And what I saw and so many wild land fire fighters agree to was that you had to be berserk to have dropped off in that canyon. Many of them did not see the actual entanglement down there until they saw the photos Joy took on that very day and from almost the very spot they died.

        One thing should be done and that is a thorough investigation into what caused the insane actions of Marsh and how Steed could have been overpowered by his rant.

        I say as well that Marsh had left Donut in a place he was certain to be consumed by fire. Donut was as green as the manzanita he was surrounded by. Marsh left him there in the green with the fire changing and Marsh with his training had to know that Donut was in an absolute dead man situation. I could see that from the two track–Donut was no look out, he was on a knoll below the Weavers and where he was had no use whatsoever with the men already gone a canyon over and him just setting there waiting for the wind to reverse the fire and kill him. He escaped only because the Blue Ridge foreman had balls enough to risk his own life to save him. Brian Frisby, the man that saved Donut–did he get an award? He deserved it for saving last man of the crew that Marsh had positioned to die.

        These are my own musings–to me they make good sense. Maybe the new year has brought me around to looking at things from different perspectives.

        It is hard to get through the crap we were fed about the heroic efforts that were supposedly made to save Yarnell. That was bull crap–those wild land fire fighters know when to hold and they know when to fold. They know when the big dog eats you find a safe place and let it eat. Your job is just to watch–never think you are going to cut line around Yarnell with a Pulaski in a flaming front that is releasing energy that burns your pulaski and melts your chain saw in a wind that is laying 100 ft flames and tornadoes down near parallel to the surface fuel. And if you think I am dreaming these things up–maybe you have not talked to enough old wild land fire fighters that have been there for years and are in the know and have no agenda other than t
        o make sure future young lives are saved. The truth will greatly improve the odds.

        • Charlie says

          One thing about a Psychopathic personality is that they can present a beautiful veneer to cover what really lurks underneath. That is often why serial killers are so hard to find. Good examples are Ted Bundy and BTK –people that fit right in, likable and are able to gain trust before they unleash their real intentions. As far as mass murderers–sometimes physical defects but often there is an event that triggers their madness. Job problems has been one of the bigger factors in mass murder events but of course we have religion that can cause the mass murders as well. Look at Jim Jones and the Allah Akbar Arab terrorist sayers–all entangled in their religious ideas.

          It might be a good idea to do some psychological screening when you put someone in charge of so many young lives. This might save some lives since psychological testing has advanced to a degree that unstable individuals can be identified and kept from positions where lives are at stake.

          Here a Dr. Ted Putnam would be a good person to consult and work on situations concerning hiring practices and especially promotions to places certain individuals should never be allowed.

      • Charlie says

        I will pound on the burn out thing a bit more. Being around and hiking with some of the finest men retired but long time wild fire managers and bosses, I have to believe that most if not all would agree that a burn out in the Shrine area would be almost a mandatory thing to do–most certainly if the wind would be away from the dwellings in that area. Well to begin with the wind was toward Peeples Valley so there in that Canyon it would be a safe thing to do. You had a boulder mountain with little vegetation to the opposite side of the Shrine and with winds toward Peeples Valley that mountain was between where the fire would go and the few dwellings on the East side of that boulder hill. Then since they knew meterological reports were going to change the direction to the SW off of its NE direction, again that would be toward the empty box canyon and it would skirt North side of Glen Isla and perhaps take on the Helms Ranch but that was considered bomb proof since the Helms had made defensive space only two weeks before the fire and had actually built it to a great degree fireproof. So, common sense tells me that video was no fluke and whatever Joy has heard from witnesses rings true.

        When I realized Frizby and others were evacuating from the area, then I have to believe they were leaving from their own burn out there. Let me tell you that canyon was dense in dry vegetation and would have went up in a hurry, especially when the promised wind factor coming from the NE arrived. So what else would they have been doing up in that area? They certainly would not have been digging line since the dirt road was ample line.

        Now if Frisby fired out of there and that really was a reversal of the Peeples Valley main Fire edge then you can know that Donut should have already been dead. That Peeples Valley fire was quite a distance toward Peeples Valley even when we topped out on the Weavers. I think Frisby must have known that the burn would soon close off Sesame Street and he had to really buzz back around to the Sesame Street dirt path since there was no way to go to Donut by the canyon where the burn was taking place.

        He knew he had precious moments because no only was the fire reversing from the Peeples Valley toward Donut, there was a burn that by now a wind was carrying up toward the Death Canyon and Helms area and would soon close off his only access to Donut. His Adrenalin must have been in overload and his ATV motor wound up. Donut was only minutes and maybe seconds away from being burned and vehicles that were on Sesame Street were barely saved from the onslaught of that burn.

        Now I have been told that Brian Frisbee is not under a mum order. But has he said anything at all about a burn one way or another? No I have only heard he has been told to keep his mouth shut. His job and career are at stake. This is why we need a Congressional investigation because there he can talk his heart out and have no retribution.

        Did Brian get his award for risking his life to save Donut yet? I don’t remember hearing much of it only that he happened to save Donut.

        Five years now and Frisbee is still mum? Someone has heard his story by now but I do not know who and what he has said. The old fly on the wall thing–it will eventually buzz out and tell us.

        • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

          You are completely confused about when certain things happened.

          Brian Frisby first ‘stumbled’ across Brendan McDonough, out by the old grader, at 3:40 PM that afternoon.

          There was absolutely no ‘fire’ and/or ‘smoke’ in the Shrine Road Youth Camp area at that time.

          Christopher MacKenzie’s photos ( may he rest in peace ), taken from that vantage point up on the Weavers and looking back east towards town, also show absolutely no ‘fire’ or ‘smoke’ emanating from the Shrine Road Youth Camp right on through the 3:55 PM timeframe ( which is when Christopher took his final photo at that Weaver Ridge location ).

          After Frisby picked up McDonough, that started a long operation whereby the Blue Ridge Hotshots had to kick in and now MOVE all of the GM vehicles out of the Sesame Clearing area and over to the Youth Camp.

          That vehicle ‘convoy’ arrived over at the Shrine Road Youth Camp at 4:08 PM.

          There was still, at 4:08 PM, no ‘fire’ or ‘smoke’ coming from the Youth Camp area at that time.

          Minutes later, the rest of the Blue Ridge Crew was told to get off the Sesame-to-Shrine dozer line and get into their vehicles which were now parked at the Youth Camp.

          Tyson Esquibel ordered his ‘Task Force 2’ resources to get out of the Harper Canyon/Youth Camp area at 4:22 PM.

          That’s when the first wind GUSTS even started hitting the Youth Camp area, but there was still no ‘fire’ or ‘smoke’ emanating from that area even as late as 4:22 PM.

          Lookout Jerry Thompson, who was at the ‘Prescott Mining Company’ ( Pat Bernard ) location, took photos and videos from that vantage point looking back north at the Shrine Youth Camp area all the way up to 4:27 PM.

          Even as late as 4:27 PM ( and according to the Thompson photos and videos ), there was still no ‘fire’ or ‘smoke’ emanating from the Youth Camp area.

          At 4:35 PM, Frisby and Brown had already ‘chased’ everyone else out of the Youth Camp area and they started driving east themselves. They were the last ones to leave that area.

          At 4:27 PM, Frisby and Brown arrived at the Shrine of St. Joseph parking lot and were filmed speaking there with Prescott National Forest employees Jason Clawson, KC ‘Bucky’ Yowell and Aaron Hulburd.

          Two minutes later ( at 4:39 PM ), Jesse Steed’s first botched MAYDAY from out at the deployment site hit the radio.

          • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

            Typo up above.

            Frisby and Brown arrived at the Shrine parking lot at 4:37, not 4:27.

            End of post above should have read like this…

            —————————————————————————-
            At 4:35 PM, Frisby and Brown had already ‘chased’ everyone else out of the Youth Camp area and they started driving east themselves.

            They were the last ones to leave that area.

            At 4:37 PM, Frisby and Brown arrived at the Shrine of St. Joseph parking lot and were filmed speaking there with Prescott National Forest employees Jason Clawson, KC ‘Bucky’ Yowell and Aaron Hulburd.

            Two minutes later ( at 4:39 PM ), Jesse Steed’s first botched MAYDAY call from out at the deployment site hit the radio.
            —————————————————————————-

          • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

            By the way… when I used the word ‘stumbled’ up above to describe how Frisby accidentally came across Brendan out at the old grader… that is not my own description. That is exactly the way Brian Frisby himself described what happened when he was talking to Prescott National Forest employees Aaron Hulburd, KC ‘Bucky’ Yowell and Jason Clawson not even a full hour after the deployment.

            Frisby had no intentions of ‘rescuing’ Brendan when he set out in the BR Polaris Ranger to meet up with Eric Marsh circa 3:30 PM.

            Frisby literally just happened to ‘stumble’ across Brendan, at 3:40 PM, and only then decided that both of them needed to get the hell out of that old-grader area and head back EAST towards safety.

            Brendan McDonough told investigators that Frisby had specifically come out that way to ‘get him’… but that was never the case. It was a complete accident that Frisby just happened to encounter Brendan when he did, as Frisby was passing by the old-grader location on his way to meet up with Eric Marsh..

            Here is a transcript of that part of Aaron Hulburd’s video with filename M2U00271.MP4, which is still available at the following public YouTube link…

            https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=04MbkaiMTQk&feature=youtu.be

            This shows the part where Aaron Hulburd asks Brian Frisby, directly, how MANY of the GM Hotshots were still actually ‘in there’ when it blew up.

            Frisby then tries to explain what he knows to Hulburd, and how it came to be that McDonough was not with the others out at the deployment site…

            —————————————————————————-
            +0:13 ( 1729:13 / 5:29:13 PM )
            ( Aaron Hulburd ): How many were in there?

            +0:21 ( 1729:21 / 5:29:21 PM )
            ( Brian Frisby ): So they were sittin’ in… they were in black.

            +0:24 ( 1729:24 / 5:29:24 PM )
            ( Jason Clawson ): I totally heard “the black”.

            +0:25 ( 1729:25 / 5:29:25 PM )
            ( Aaron Hulburd ): So THAT’S what they were talking about? The LOOKOUT was in the black?

            +0:28 ( 1729:28 / 5:29:28 PM )
            ( Brian Frisby ): No. No. (He’s) in black…

            +0:30 ( 1729:30 / 5:29:30 PM )
            ( KC ‘Bucky’ Yowell ): ( Overlapping with Frisby ) Yea… I heard THAT…

            +0:31 ( 1729:31 / 5:29:31 PM )
            ( Brian Frisby ): …and Eric decided that the trail that kinda follows that ridge… in the green… ( ? that that’s the route )… and that lookout was down below… and I went in to go tie in with Eric… and that’s when it picked up. I just happened to stumble upon the lookout… without the… ( ? rest of ’em )… and I grabbed him… and then we got the rigs out.

            —————————————————————————–

            • Charlie says

              Thanks again WTKTT–it is so hard with so much disinformation released to ascertain the truth. Why we need some hard tack Congressmen and women to get these people on the stand and under oath. Donut may have believed that Marsh would have sent Frisby there? I mean did they not think of Marsh as Daddie?

              I have a beautiful Husky-German Shepard mix female dog that has 8 pups. She watches those pups like a hawk so that my other dogs do not even dare get close to her din. I have a door on the dog house and keep it heated with a lamp at all times, but that gal is a watcher and protector of those she has in her care and she is on to anything that might endanger her litter.

              It is disheartening when you consider that lower intelligent animals do better justice to those in their care than we as humans would sometimes allow to our own kind. What I saw at Yarnell with my own eyes was absolutely inexcusable and unexplained unless you factor in psychological factors–even mental derangement. Then to paint the picture as though it were a God thing and accident that involved men trying to do good works so the the truth and nothing but the truth could be revealed is a travesty of justice not only to those 19 dead souls but the future safety of the young men willing to follow in their work.

              So I have many things to do here today–but we shall never forget that tragedy nor fail to complain about the way that investigation and white wash job was played out.

              And my saying is nothing to it just do it for my own projects. One arm works good but a little slow yet Confucius said a thousand mile journey begins with the first step. It is completed one step at a time. Nothing to it just do it I say. And a cowboy without a pocket knife ain’t a cowboy.

              • Charlie says

                That should read so the truth could not be revealed–something that would be disastrous to the face of those involved in doing the worse fire fighting job in history. Here the FS and Honchos of the job have the advantage over the truth. They can lie all day long and they know the public will go along. You see the public is already mentally programmed so they want to believe that those that work in the fire fighting business are totally honest and can never make mistakes or pull shenanigans. The FS people can tell their fables and public will accept the garbage as if it were the sweet smell of flowers. But those in the industry and a few that have seen the actual events unfold know when they smell a skunk.

                Well maybe we need one of those milky toast preachers saying all is well–the bad is good and God fucked them over cause he had other plans. Any kind of confusing shit to add to the pot. No I like good old reality. If you had been shot in the back you might know what I mean–God did not pull the trigger, my dog fell off the seat and somehow dislodged the safety and fired the gun scratching his way back up. Yes the safety was on and it is sticking out such that it could be done. No Charlie had not learned how to shoot me on the internet nor did God direct his paws. And I did not call out to Jesus –I did call 911 but it was cause I would have left my dogs in the desert and likely they would have eventually died on that desert outback. I had accepted that I was a goner and how the hell I am writing today you might say well God had his hand in it. Maybe the Irish Gods, Jesus and ten angels as well. But for sure a truck load of first responders, a slow helicopter and doctors that put another hole in the front of me with a test tube that stayed in my lung for a month and 6 units of blood and maybe some prayers from a red socked priest brought me around.

                Facts are one thing but the public mind is easily fooled by the sometimes fools that worked the Yarnell Fire Investigation. I will exclude Brett and Brent–they fined the shit out of the FS. They hiked it and knew there was skulduggery.

    • Charlie says

      WTKTT–OK if Brian Frisby was there and the fire was upon them did not Brian Frisby rescue Donut? Now to get to Donut, Frisby would have had to go back out and come in the Sesame Street trail which extended up to the two track. A bull dozed path was now up to the old grader and only a short ways beyond that. Donut was just below the grader–he had something like a 100 yards from the knoll to where he would meet Brian on his ATV. Now how could the fire already be in the Shrine Area and they are saying it came around the North Ridge of that death canyon. You see if it was already in the Shrine Area, it should have been past where Donut was. It is quite a distance for Brian to have gone to save Donut. So if indeed as they are reporting the wind went from 0 to 45mph Brian would indeed have had only a very short time to retrieve Donut and still save his own life. In fact some witnesses that saw them coming out said they saw Donut and expressed that his eyes were so big that they knew they had been in deep shit and knew they would be expecting big trouble. The idea that the flame front had not arrived just yet to Donut, yet they were evacuating the Shrine Area makes me think Frisby must have known there was a burn out in the Shrine area and knew that where Donut was that he would have no escape route whatsoever since that burn out was now headed up toward the death canyon and the only thing between the Shrine burn and the death canyon was the Sesame Street dozed trail. That trail would have been useless in a 45 mph wind. Consider also that everything is uphill from the Shrine area to Helms and the death canyon.

      I do not know the meteorological reports but from where we were looking at the storms, lightening and dark clouds, their location in the NE from where we were on the two track, you knew that the wind would be headed to the SW. When that torching started a burn it would have gone directly from the Shrine area toward the Helms and The Diablo Muerte Canyon. The front coming at Donut would have been at a slower rate and longer distance than that from the Shrine location. The wind vector would have determined that and with what I understand of their escape, the timing involved to get Donut when the fire was upon them in the Shrine Area already, meant they likely had their whiskers already scorched and likely the ATV seat was hot as well. Brian Frisby would know the truth on this one–Is he still mumed up by the judicial orders? You can’t get any truth out of Donut so forget what he reports.

      • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

        Reply to Charlie post on January 4, 2019 at 10:51 am

        >> Charlie said…
        >>
        >> WTKTT–OK if Brian Frisby was there and the fire was upon them did
        >> not Brian Frisby rescue Donut? Now get to Donut- Frisby would have
        >> had to go back out and come in the Sesame Street trail which
        >> extended up to the two track. A bull dozed path was now up to
        >> the old grader and only a short ways beyond that. Donut was just
        >> below the grader–he had something like a 100 yards from the knoll
        >> to where he would meet Brian on his ATV. Now how could the fire
        >> already be in the Shrine Area and they are saying it came around
        >> the North Ridge of that death canyon. You see if it was already
        >> in the Shrine Area, it should have been past where Donut was.

        You are completely confused about when certain things happened.

        Brian Frisby first ‘stumbled’ across Brendan McDonough, out by the old grader, at 3:40 PM that afternoon.

        There was absolutely no ‘fire’ and/or ‘smoke’ in the Shrine Road Youth Camp area at that time.

    • Charlie says

      This incident begs a Congressional hearing–especially since there were torches being used in the Shrine area. I doubt Donut or any other fire person would take a chance at lying to those Congress people–pretty much a sure prison sentence to do so.

      I have to admit I have tried to somewhat detach myself–when you do such, you do not look at the details. But once I saw that Frisby was in the Shrine Area, then left like gang busters to retrieve Donut then I realized how desperate he was to get to Donut before any burn out would block him from getting to Donut. Actually he could have gone on up the two track and likely gotten to the black that way before the fire got to him and Donut but his experience told him he had just enough time to save his ass if his ATV did not quit on him. Fortunately the dozer road was relatively smooth from the area where he picked up donut–especially after the first couple hundred yards of it toward Yarnell. Whew, that man is a hero for sure risking himself like that after Marsh had left Donut for dead. I do not know how fast his ATV was going but people witnesses that knew big trouble was heading their way from Donuts expression said they were not grandma driving out of there. Neither were Joy and I grandma hiking–it was double time for us and fortunately we were not caught by that burn. You see it would have skirted the North End of Glen Isla and was headed directly to where we were coming out–In fact within minutes after we escaped in my jalopy the huge tree we had parked under burned completely. After getting Penny who was near hysterical, loading her dogs and birds, etc, we headed down toward Congress in a smoke you could barely see the tail lights ahead of you. The photos Joy took of the flying embers hitting our windshield from where she took the photos were arriving from a fire still about a mile away. So you see what the GMHS crew were entertaining at their location. No hope but I now surmise that these well educated and experienced bosses knew exactly what was going to happen–and it was Suicide and Murder incorporated from bad planning and bad hiring practices. Maybe you want to believe something else but with all I see at this point there lies my opinion and until a proper Congressional Investigation happens I can’t see changing that evaluation of the Yarnell Failure at Wild Land Fire Fighting of the Century.

      Yes if Amanda and company want to do the right thing–with her expertise and clout among so many elite citizens, representatives, judges, movie producers, etc., she would do just that–demand a Congressional Hearing. That would clear the thing up and verify her Version and the FS version of things if they be true–It would dry up the complaints we have for knowing we do not have the real story about the idea that some believe her husband would be the infamous killer of his crew. Do you think her and her supporters will do that? Do not hold your breath–but who knows she took the trouble to challenge Joy for no good reason–even calling Willis to the stand who really could not bear to lie and even later more or less apologized to Joy.

      (I hope I did not post this a second time but if I did it puts an exclamation mark on the need for a Congressional Investigation)

      • Charlie says

        Thank You–so I received a call from a wild land fire figher retired commander expressing his appreciation for my post. This person is someone any Congressman would listen to in a heart beat if an investigation were to open up. So let us hope that there are some high officials in government listening. A hearing could only expose factors that need to be addressed that involved the 19 deaths of GMHS wild land fire fighters and further will improve and establish procedures that can only save future wild land fire fighter lives. Those deaths at the Yarnell wild fire of June 30, 2013 were absolutely preventable and needless killings. And how can you skirt the issue that so many retired wild land fire fighters are unhappy with how the investigation was conducted and covered up as to the real truth of what happened at Yarnell?

        Those first responders and wild land fire fighters are the heroes of this country. Recently I was saved by first responders including firemen, sheriff and state policemen, ER responders and helicopter pilots all working in unison to get me to a trauma center. My life was balanced on precious moments this past October 24, 2018 when a point blank 12 -guage shotgun past busted through three ribs, my right lung and ended up shattering my collar bone as well–I have the shot all dispersed through my chest area–except one of the shot fell out when the nurse changed the dressing. I saw it and picked it up and taped it to my phone as a souvenir.

        Well yesterday I was getting a hair cut in Las Cruces when a deputy named Jesse walked in for his trim–as I was leaving I asked him was he one of the deputies that had driven the 25 miles out into the desert to drag me out from under the pick up and load me in the copter. He said he was–I did have to thank him and tell him I owe my life to him and the others that did their job efficiently and quickly. I know he was a bit surprised to see me alive and I am certain glad that he had helped. I am glad to see me alive as well. That is what we want for those young fire fighters as well–that procedures are put in place so that the Yarnell tragedy does not repeat for the same reasons it happened. If there are any Congress people who really care and understand the gravity of the loss of 19 very young lives then they will certainly do the right thing and investigate what so many experienced and retired wildland fire fighters have been screeming–the reports are not true as to the real reasons these men were needlessly killed. They will address the issues that need to be corrected.

    • Charlie says

      An addition to the fact that my son also was killed due to careless bosses. Certainly they cared and even visited him in the hospital. You know their niceness did not replace his arm and all the pain he went through over the years until he died at age 29 in the year 1999. He had several surgeries where nerves were removed from the back of both legs and attempts made to replace those into his arm. His arm never came back. The million dollar settlement did not bring back his life. It did go on to his daughter and I understand helped her to have a better life and get through college.

      But nothing could replace the emptiness I felt and still so often feel after his death. At the time I was making better than 2 grand a week selling gold when gold was only in the 300 dollar an ounce range. But I left that job and went onto the street life in Seattle, where he had learned his underwater welding. I had joined a veterans group that treated generally viet nam PTSD patients. I slept in an old Van parked here and there and generally where no one would dare venture–the doper areas near 21st and Washington. I carried an old Bible–maybe why I was never mugged by the black population on the streets in the area. Well once I returned to my old van and there was a bullet hole and I determined it came from a high rise apartment building across from where I was parked. But it took more than a year for me to make any sense out of life–how much it can hurt to loose a loved one as I loved my son Ted. Writing this still brings tears to my eyes–needlessly those events happened. Why we work so hard to clean up what needs to be cleaned and repair systems that are direct causes of these needless deaths. Thanks to all of you who do work so hard to get justice in the case of the 19. Somewhere you will be rewarded for your efforts–some child, mother, father, brother or sister or other loved one will be rewarded for your continued search to make things right.

    • Charlie says

      Before I retire tonight there is a question that perhaps someone can answer. If Brian knew where Donut was did he not also know where the GMHS crew were? It stands to reason that he would know and if he knew so did everyone else. I can not imagine Donut being totally out of touch with his crew especially since he was the official look out. Please do not tell me his radio and cell phone were out of order and that nobody gave a shit that he was abandoned in the worst possible place you could be alone in a wild fire–that is in the middle of a manzanita field that expanded for miles in all directions with a fire headed his way.

      Well one deputy did tell Joy and I that they knew all the time where the GMHS were but he said there was mass confusion–to put it mildly.

      • says

        Once a fire began in the Shrine corridor how could it be diverted to not affect GMHS and even if GMHS knew the “Shrine fire”was coming their way was there anything they could do? They seemed to be blocked with no way out.

        • Robert the Second says

          Diane,

          Once a burn out fire is lit in that chapparal fuel type there would be no way to divert it other than taking advantage of and using the weather and topography features.

          More importantly, the GMHS had no established lookout as they moved through the unburned fuels nor did they tell Air Attack (AA) their intentions and ask them to watch out for them.

        • Charlie says

          About the fire line Diane–Here shows what may be the fire line that what I am looking at appears to be the burnout line since that narrow fire could not have been the major fire. Joy sent this this morning so we will need the professionals to look at this and tell us what it really means. So hopefully Gary, Norb, Woodsman, RTS, WTKTT, and every wild land fire fighter here of any knowledge of maps will look. The video is very short but can be stopped easily enough and you will see the burn ends in the location where we saw the drip torch videos. This is a U tube video and may disappear since we know the FS and State habit of redaction. Please give your expert view and evaluation of the video–Thank you, Sonny
          Joy Collura
          11:52 AM (41 minutes ago)
          https://youtu.be/s4xUKhTT5cA

          • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

            Reply to Charlie post on January 10, 2019 at 12:42 pm

            >> Charlie said…
            >>
            >> About the fire line Diane–Here shows what may be
            >> the fire line that what I am looking at appears to be
            >> the burnout line since that narrow fire could not
            >> have been the major fire. Joy sent this this morning
            >> so we will need the professionals to look at this
            >> and tell us what it really means. So hopefully Gary,
            >> Norb, Woodsman, RTS, WTKTT, and every wild land
            >> fire fighter here of any knowledge of maps will look.
            >>
            >> Joy Collura
            >> 11:52 AM (41 minutes ago)
            >> https://youtu.be/s4xUKhTT5cA

            I’m a little confused.

            That YouTube video link you just posted is simply something that I posted just yesterday in response to some ‘curiosity’ that Norb Szczurek expressed recently when he said…

            >> On January 8, 2019 at 12:21 pm, Norb Szczurek said…
            >>
            >> Still curious about the “loop” fire perimeter around the Shrine
            >> area (thanks for location clarification)

            All that video does is show that the strange little ‘loop’ that the SAIT report document had in their ‘Fire Progesssion’ chart was centered around the Shrine of St. Joseph.

            The aerial photographs included in the video are just two of MANY ‘aftermath’ photos published by AZCENTRAL and other media outlets.

            They were taken in the days immediately FOLLOWING the Yarnell 2013 fire, and NOT on June 30, 2013.

            The show the extent to which the fire burned into town there on the north end of Yarnell.

            If you are trying to say they show something more specific… could you explain a little better?

    • Charlie says

      Yes it is quite possible I have some times wrong–most of which I have gleaned from sources here. If there is any question about when things happened check with Joy Collura–she kept record of all events and has proper times. Of course the times on the burn can not be yet determined although I am certain Joy has them discovered and knows when that burnout started and when they left.

      Five years has faded my memory on much of that so do consult Joy if you have any question as to when we did things and where and also even all else. If you are trying to insinuate that I might be confused as to the video and the burn or where it happened you would be wrong. I might not be able to use your google map to locate it but I would have no problem walking you right to the spot that was in the video and point out pretty close to where the drip torchers would have been working.

      My opinions of the actions of Marsh and that he may have committed suicide and murder I are my own. More will be revealed–RTS and Honda have already written of his carelessness with his crew involving getting into circumstances other crews had declined due to safety issues.

      Most of the times I noted, if they be off can be corrected by records and Joy has more foia’s coming so you can know if you need more evidence regarding burn out and times, please be patient. How terrible it is to get to the bottom of this thing when so much was redacted, so much withheld with the agenda to try to polish the Yarnell incident.

      My apologies if you have been confused by my errors in times. Much more will be revealed.

      0

      • Charlie says

        Just for the general interest I asked Joy how many times we hiked people together–she said I had gone 108 times and I believe 8 of those were up through the Shrine area to the two track. Joy says she has made a total of 918 hikes with people into the area to show them the path of the GMHS, etc. She would know just about every rock and cranny along the way–so if you want some good directions or to know the exact location say of that rock foundation–she could likely give you even the co ordinates.

        What I saw was pretty simple to view–Where Marsh ordered his men to go down every one of the retired bosses we hiked said it was an absolute no do situation. Now on the many other hikes Joy made with fire men and leaders she may have found some that said oh yes, Marsh was quite up in taking his men down in that death trap. But I have to doubt it. There is a big question in my mind and many others here the motive or motives Marsh was entertaining that day to do what he did.

        A cowboy once told me too many coincidences ain’t a coincidence. Marsh had a bunch of them.

      • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

        Reply to Charlie post on January 5, 2019 at 6:51 pm

        >> Charlie said…
        >>
        >> If you are trying to insinuate that I might be confused as to
        >> the video and the burn or where it happened you would be wrong.

        I’m not ‘insinuating’ anything.

        I’m just trying to work through this and find out how much can be known and/or discovered regarding this video.

        At least the WHERE has now been totally verified, and that just makes it easier to recheck other existing photos and videos to try and nail down the TIME.

        >> Charlie also said…
        >>
        >> Of course the times on the burn can not be yet determined …

        But at least we CAN know ( using already-existing photo and video evidence ) when it was NOT happening.

        That can only HELP nail down a timeframe when it COULD have been happening.

        >> Charlie also said…
        >>
        >> …although I am ‘certain’ Joy has them discovered and knows
        >> when that burnout started and when they left.

        Well… as far as just the simple TIME goes… that ‘certainly’ would seem to be an important piece of information that could be revealed WITHOUT naming any sources and/or putting anyone’s JOB at risk.

        >> Charlie also said…
        >>
        >> I might not be able to use your google map to locate it but I would
        >> have no problem walking you right to the spot that was in the video
        >> and point out pretty close to where the drip torchers would have
        >> been working.

        No need.

        Just 16 days ago, on December 20, 2018, Joy went to the exact location there 100 yards west of where the Shrine Road pavement ends and she filmed the following video…

        https://youtu.be/zn9Jpi4Lxyw

        Near the end of the video, she is standing right there by the WALTRAUD property location, where the driveway meets Shrine Road. That’s the place where all the structures were that can be seen burning in the Aaron Hulburd videos… and all the rock walls and foundations left there are visible in the video.

        At the very end of the video… Joy has panned back east towards the Shrine of St. Joseph area, and that concrete medallion in the center of Shrine road that is right there at her feet is visible in satellite imagery.

        It is exactly here…

        Decimal Latitude: 34.228109
        Decomal Longitude: -112.753673

        Just click the following link to see the exact location of that ‘concrete medallion’ in Joy’s video, right at her feet…

        https://www.google.com/maps/place/34%C2%B013'41.2%22N+112%C2%B045'13.2%22W/@34.228109,-112.753884,142m/data=!3m1!1e3!4m5!3m4!1s0x0:0x0!8m2!3d34.228109!4d-112.753673

        The same ‘concrete medallion’ is the ‘little white dot’ in the middle of the road, right there at the pointy part of the RED BALLOON that will appear in the satellite image.

        >> Charlie also said…
        >>
        >> My apologies if you have been confused by my errors in times.

        No apologies necessary. This is ( in general ) ‘confusing’ stuff.

        You saw what you saw. Thanks for ‘hanging in there’ on this.

        Let’s just keep at it and try and get this right.

        >> Charlie also said…
        >>
        >> Much more will be revealed.

        Looking forward to it.

      • Charlie says

        WTKTT It is an honor when you give note to my posts and do correct them. I certainly am humbled by your knowledge, wisdom and continued interest in the Yarnell Fire. Your wisdom and knowledge would stand next to Joy’s on this wild fire–I know you have been incessant at getting to the truth on all things about it. Of course we are accompanied by some of the most experienced and wise wild land fire fighting mangers that have been there and done that for many years. Experience is the greatest of teachers–I could have never been as good a miner as I was except for that long lived experience–both in how to keep alive (where possible) and how to be a highly productive miner.

        I give you a up scale right off the bat since you not only speak Irish, you could only be an Irish person. Well a good German would say the same to another good German as well, and so forth. I do think of you as a sort of Stephen Hawking–I wonder if you work from a wheel chair but no matter, your intelligence likely puts you in the Mensa class. My son Ted, that passed from the similar carelessness that we see in some bosses, was in the class (IQ above 140) and during his work at the University of Arizona he was working toward a degree in Chemical Engineering–I am proud to say a straight A student in something I would have had to work my ass off to get above a C average.

        Yes when we went to a fire agate mine I once owned–this was during the time he had lost use of his arm and was doing the college thing–he rattled off some formulas and questioned me about some Chemical reactions. He somehow thought I ought to know since I did have University Chemistry–But I was only a B student–not the brain he might have imagined.

        Ted had stopped near globe to give some black guy his sleeping bag and a $20–just the way Ted was put together so I still smile even though it cost us a long 50 mile trip back into Safford so we could get him another sleeping bag. Things happen so the best of plans are somehow interrupted. However we did spend three days together–even gathered a 5 gallon bucket of fire agate, that at the time we sold to a fellow who owned the Mercedes dealership in Tucson, Arizona. He was glad to get that 50 lbs of fire agate at $600 in those days. I tried to spit the money with Ted but he adamantly refused. He had plenty and he said he only wanted to get away from the hub bub of the city life for a few days–He had actually slept out many knights years before as a youngster (7 years old). Back then he would gather a small container of agate and make himself $30 for a few hours picking the stuff up. He was many times there when I would drill and blast just as I was when my Dad would do the same. So I always considered myself one of the Cassius Clays of miners. There were some better but not by much.

        I think it pertains to experience when I talk and hope it does not sound to braggadocios. So maybe I understand Gary Olson when he tells of how well he did his job. I smile and I believe it.

        One thing that I wonder is if you have ever set foot on the ground there at Yarnell to actually witness the footsteps those men took before their deaths. And if not I was curious as to why not? It can be a rude awaking to set there on the two track where Joy and I observed this humongous wild fire exactly where those men went down to their deaths, then visit the site itself by taking a now winding trail down to the deployment site. They have a shade there now (where Joy was trying to avoid the sun under a scrawny pinon tree), but then in the 106F heat of the day, Joy had her boots off and was resting–I thought mesmerized by the huge wild fire she was observing not too far in the distance. If you can imagine you might say no wonder Sonny cursed and said We got to get the hell out of here! You might also understand why Steed was in dispute with Marsh about going down into that canyon, and certainly if you looked at Joy’s photo of early morning that very day they died at the very place they were to die later that evening.

        I have to hand the trophy to Joy–she has made more than 900 hikes with concerned individuals-mostly fire fighters though of course plenty of media and authors. Boots on the ground means so much in understanding the situation there. I hope everyone who really has an interest in the situation that killed 19 young souls gets the opportunity to walk in their boots so to speak–even to where they were doing fire break. That trek can boggle the mind and imagination. It is a blessing to accompany her with her first hand knowledge of the fire and her acquaintance with so many fire fighters and citizens with direct or indirect knowledge of the fire. She knows much about it that most of us do not yet know and eventually she will, in her time, give us a better understanding from all her interviews and foias-(more are headed her way)

        So thanks WTKTT. I am pleased at all the good work you have done toward solving the whys and whos of this Yarnell Debacle.

        For myself–I just finished off a nice big sweet potatoe with butter roasted in the coals of my wood stove. Was very good and beat hell out of that Mac Donald Big Breakfast thing with greasy sausage, greasy eggs and hash browns. Why complain, it filled my belly when I was early in Cruces this morning.

        • Charlie says

          3:36 PM (2 hours ago)

          WTKTT It is an honor when you give note to my posts and do correct them. I certainly am humbled by your knowledge, wisdom and continued interest in the Yarnell Fire. Your wisdom and knowledge would stand next to Joy’s on this wild fire–I know you have been incessant at getting to the truth on all things about it. Of course we are accompanied by some of the most experienced and wise wild land fire fighting mangers that have been there and done that for many years. Experience is the greatest of teachers–I could have never been as good a miner as I was except for that long lived experience–both in how to keep alive (where possible) and how to be a highly productive miner.

          I give you a up scale right off the bat since you not only speak Irish, you could only be an Irish person. Well a good German would say the same to another good German as well, and so forth. I do think of you as a sort of Stephen Hawking–I wonder if you work from a wheel chair but no matter, your intelligence likely puts you in the Mensa class. My son Ted, that passed from the similar carelessness that we see in some bosses, was in the class (IQ above 140) and during his work at the University of Arizona he was working toward a degree in Chemical Engineering–I am proud to say a straight A student in something I would have had to work my ass off to get above a C average.

          Yes when we went to a fire agate mine I once owned–this was during the time he had lost use of his arm and was doing the college thing–he rattled off some formulas and questioned me about some Chemical reactions. He somehow thought I ought to know since I did have University Chemistry–But I was only a B student–not the brain he might have imagined.

          Ted had stopped near globe to give some black guy his sleeping bag and a $20–just the way Ted was put together so I still smile even though it cost us a long 50 mile trip back into Safford so we could get him another sleeping bag. Things happen so the best of plans are somehow interrupted. However we did spend three days together–even gathered a 5 gallon bucket of fire agate, that at the time we sold to a fellow who owned the Mercedes dealership in Tucson, Arizona. He was glad to get that 50 lbs of fire agate at $600 in those days. I tried to spit the money with Ted but he adamantly refused. He had plenty and he said he only wanted to get away from the hub bub of the city life for a few days–He had actually slept out many knights years before as a youngster (7 years old). Back then he would gather a small container of agate and make himself $30 for a few hours picking the stuff up. He was many times there when I would drill and blast just as I was when my Dad would do the same. So I always considered myself one of the Cassius Clays of miners. There were some better but not by much.

          I think it pertains to experience when I talk and hope it does not sound to braggadocios. So maybe I understand Gary Olson when he tells of how well he did his job. I smile and I believe it.

          One thing that I wonder is if you have ever set foot on the ground there at Yarnell to actually witness the footsteps those men took before their deaths. And if not I was curious as to why not? It can be a rude awaking to set there on the two track where Joy and I observed this humongous wild fire exactly where those men went down to their deaths, then visit the site itself by taking a now winding trail down to the deployment site. They have a shade there now (where Joy was trying to avoid the sun under a scrawny pinon tree), but then in the 106F heat of the day, Joy had her boots off and was resting–I thought mesmerized by the huge wild fire she was observing not too far in the distance. If you can imagine you might say no wonder Sonny cursed and said We got to get the hell out of here! You might also understand why Steed was in dispute with Marsh about going down into that canyon, and certainly if you looked at Joy’s photo of early morning that very day they died at the very place they were to die later that evening.

          I have to hand the trophy to Joy–she has made more than 900 hikes with concerned individuals-mostly fire fighters though of course plenty of media and authors. Boots on the ground means so much in understanding the situation there. I hope everyone who really has an interest in the situation that killed 19 young souls gets the opportunity to walk in their boots so to speak–even to where they were doing fire break. That trek can boggle the mind and imagination. It is a blessing to accompany her with her first hand knowledge of the fire and her acquaintance with so many fire fighters and citizens with direct or indirect knowledge of the fire. She knows much about it that most of us do not yet know and eventually she will, in her time, give us a better understanding from all her interviews and foias-(more are headed her way)

          So thanks WTKTT. I am pleased at all the good work you have done toward solving the whys and whos of this Yarnell Debacle.

          For myself–I just finished off a nice big sweet potatoe with butter roasted in the coals of my wood stove. Was very good and beat hell out of that Mac Donald Big Breakfast thing with greasy sausage, greasy eggs and hash browns. Why complain, it filled my belly when I was early in Cruces this morning.

          • Charlie says

            Apogies for the repeat–sometimes my uploads are so slow that I thought they were not posted Maybe I will do a Willis and say God intended the extra post for an exclamation mark.

    • Charlie says

      Here I go again–But it is perhaps a very good thing to pay attention especially to Dr. Ted Putnam–I call him Ted and I know he does not mind since we are both Sagatarians and I think I am only two days older than he or maybe he is the older gentleman.

      Ted was top investigator in the 14 deaths at Storm King and he on his own spent some years on the Man Gulch disaster that killed 13. I had mentioned this before–by what is interesting was that Ted on the Storm King felt it needed more time and had psychological factors that should have been addressed. Not signing off meant almost a total black balling for his career and despite that he had to be true to himself and refuse to sign an investigation the was incomplete and did not address some important issues in people and their behavior under stress. Things he had were issues that were highly important to the industry but the majority and those in a hurry to close the case were demanding from high positions that it be finished. We see the repeat of the scenario at Yarnell.

      What Dr. Ted wanted to address was how people are trained and some things that can save people in highly stressed situations. I can tell you that the men I passed were almost complete opposite to what I saw in Marsh that day. The faces at 9:30am or so (go to Joy for the exact time) I can tell you were faces of stressed men. They were not happy faces. They were not fresh as we had seen on Marsh.

      Yes they were in the term I have heard the fire fighters use–lockstep.

      What I have come to notice was for a long time after the deaths written on a board in Yarnell with all the photos of those deceased. Part of it that caught my undivided attention said to be a wild land fire fighter you must strictly take orders at all times.

      That took me back to my boot camp days at Ft. Bliss, El Paso, July 1967. We strictly took orders and they even had us doing push ups on the black top pavement–enough to blister your hands and if you know anything about the weather in July at El Paso, it gets above a hundred just about every day of July. Well of course the design is to toughen up the men and break them down enough they will listen to their leader–not run–nor do something on their own foolish enough to risk the lives of others in the group. Good enougjh in the military.

      But let us look at the wild land fire fighter. We are not having to engage the enemy in the same way. Even on front lines when you see you are overwhelmed, there can be a time to retreat–which we finally did and evacuated Vietnam.

      But in fire fighting how much power do you take away from the individual? We saw the with GMHS every rule was being broken and supposedly when a superior is having you do such, then you can refuse. Yet if there was any argument with the Marsh decision to break the rules it was Steed who did but the final was that he gave in to Marsh and took his men down. Marsh was asked his comfort zone but apparently Steed was not asked of if he was he said hell no and we have heard more than once. But the problem is that the men under Steed were so well schooled in the strictly take order bit that they were afraid to assert themselves to save their own lives. You have to be certain that some of them knew it was damn dangerous and knew they were doing the wrong procedures in risking their own lives and following the leader thing. It has to be hard to go against the grain of the group in a situation and it would be highly stressful to try to go against the bosses intentions. The point is, someone needs to listen to Dr. Ted Putnam and other Psychologists and plans put into place so these narcissistic type leaders are not allowed to kill their men. A narcissist thinks only of himself–say in this instance the bosses wanted to look good and were willing to risk those young lives to elevate themselves among their Honcho mentalities. So even though most wild land fire fighter foremen know when to fold and know when to hold they may risk their mens lives for their own selfish reasons. Say, Adosh was not wrong in fining the max fine for the careless manner there. When we hiked those two investigators Brett and Brent, Brett fell down–this before the FS built a neat little winding trail to the death site. He hurt pretty bad and you can bet a few of those GMHS had done the same coming off the two track before their death. So Brent and Brett got a taste of their ordeal and that was after the place looked like a moonscape. Joy’s photos showed them the real terror those men had to face.

      The point is that there is a need to teach the young ones how to empower themselves when they know they are facing unnecessary risk. That is where the psychology comes in and that is why I mention Dr. Ted Putnam. He and people of his study can work out a better system not only in hiring and especially promoting people so these disasters can be kept to a minimum.

      It can be done because I have experienced these situations where bosses wanted to risk my own life yet I was able to refuse. Sometimes it hurt because I had to pick up my check and me as well and leave the job permanently. In mining we were called tramp miners because we were the boss–and if a superintendent tried funny business we would tell him go to hell. Our shifters always made what was called days pay. If you were a miner and only made days pay it meant you were not a miner. Your pay should equal more than double days pay and if you were any good at all it should be 4-5 times days pay. But of course we have the problem where someone unwilling to make undue risk could be black balled in wild land fire fighting. Yet the dangers approximate the same and we miners looked as black and sootie as any wild land fire fighter. Especially uranium and coal mining–but all of it was dirty business.

      So we said in mining–shifters are a dime a dozen but a good miner is hard to find. And maybe that should somewhat apply to the man with the Pulaski. If it were fair, he would draw more pay than his immediate boss. You might say well all that grunt needs to know is how to make line. True, but how many men can you find to do all I have read that these guys go through to get the job done? I believe if you gave him fair pay above his immediate boss, you would also empower him to where he would be able to say no to certain situations. And if he did and the boss fired him then that boss would only be jeopardizing his own job.

      Mining is some different though–you get paid for what you do–not what you say. So much a foot on drifts or long holes, or so much a bolt on bolts and if you only make days pay, you are better off being a shifter. That way you could stay in the lunch shack all day and if you were like Bylon bring a bottle along and sleep it off most of the shift. Underground seldom did the superintendents show and if they did their lights would have been seen by Bylon for a long ways–unless he was passed out. But we loved Bylon and our crews were always the top preformers because he knew to stay away unless we needed a nipper. That was what shifters would up doing if they visited miners–we would send the for things we needed but they did have actual nippers to do that.

      So we understand there has to be some changes if the FS and Wild Land Fire Fighting Honcho’s want to save lives. It is sad to say they rather save face in incidences like Mann Gulch, Storm King, and Yarnell just to list a few of the many cases of a system that continues to deny instead of improve.

      Ted, I hope you post here sometime–your take on things would be good information–even save lives of the young ones. I know that to a man, all the retired men who ran crews at wild land fire fighting are in the fray because they are concerned of the way things are being done to cause these deaths. It hurts them to see these unnecessary risks being taken and most are willing to help change the things that will stop the type sacrificing we saw at Yarnell.

      Statements lie “thats what they do, protect structures” will not do to excuse these needless deaths. Shit, any strudture fighter will tell you we do not needless risk our lives when not necessary-but then a wild land fighter is the least equipped to protect structures–he has no fire engine and his Pulaski is about as useless as tits on a boar hog. The homeowner is better equipped if he has a garden hose. Quit putting out the garbage statements and tell the truth. It was a royal fuck up and certain individuals are strictly responsible for those deaths at Yarnell. We have named a couple of them but there are more due to the system and yes there are mitigating circumstances but someone wanted those men down there beside Marsh and his direct orders–my own opinion–

    • Charlie says

      Before I call it a night I could not help but chime in on the retardant dumps and how it affected Yarnell residents–the guinea pigs of the retardant dump of the century–a town inundated with retardant not once (I was told 500,000 gallons) the first round during the GMHS demise of June 30,2013 but also again during the Tenderfoot Fire of 2015 when Yarnell was again smitten with a heavy dose of retardant. I do not have the figures for the second dump but there was plenty of Orange right up against housing on the West Side and certainly more about and near Yarnell.

      I mention this because Joy has been having some serious chest pains. It happens we know that after the dumps there was a great upsurge in strokes, heart failure, lung problems, and cancer so that the death count of Yarnellites ran up to over 150 out of the 650 that lived there. Past tense is proper. I was one of the death counts from a heart attack that killed me right outside the cardiologist doctor’s office and in his VA parking lot, Prescott Az. Modern doctor miracles brought me back, although Joy took me off life support so I could come back to life. At that time the doctor said only many procedures they have were they able to revive me from the dead. He suggested I might have a year to live–but then that almost proved right after this last shot gun blast to my back. (well I think I have managed two or three years since then. No use keeping track if you have been on the dead list for a while.

      So it does goad me into thinking Joy is suffering from what I suffered and so many Yarnellites suffered–the RETARDANT SYNDROME. If you are a fish you would have died immediately–and a lot of heavy drinkers did fall dead after the retardant dumps. If you were a fish swimming in the water you and all your buddies died withing minutes.

      Hitler would have went apeshit with this stuff. It is a silent killer that most do not understand or look at. He would have loved that you could put 15% of a secret ingredient in that shit so he could have had his fun with the Jews and other dissidents to his system and especially the elderly that he saw as no longer productive to his war machine. Trump are you listening–I hope not cause this stuff might be used instead of the wall–but it too is damn expensive so I know you will weight that out. But the poor and elderly should beware, especially in towns such as Yarnell were there were both populations–mostly elderly there but some were considered of the poor classes–something that Trump believes people are there because they are lesser. Let me tell you I never thought I was poor until I met what were considered were poor Mexicans and I saw they had more material wealth that we. Well I still am poor in a way but rich of mind.

      Do beware of the dangers of the retardant. Do not believe the billion dollar retardant industry that say the retardant and its secret ingredients are safe to your health. They are not–I have enough research on that and the many Yarnell deaths are a good verification of that opinion. Do not believe the billion dollar tobacco companies either. The profit margin will go down if you stop believing their lies. And believe me too much MacDonalds is not conducive to health. But at least they do spend a little of their billions to help the sick. And even be careful about prescription drugs. I don’t know how they sell that shit once you see it advertised–your eyeballs will fall out and it still sells. So good luck and good watching–don’t kill yourself by breathing too much retardant and especially that that has fell upon burning embers. The resulting cyanide can be a killer.

    • Norb Szczurek says

      Captain Brown has an interesting choice of words. The other point of interest in this conversation is the fires shape on the fire perimeter map in this area (Youth Camp). The fires edge makes a distinct “loop” around what appears to me to be around the area of the Youth Camp. I am not a Fire Behavior Analyst but in my experience there are only a few explanations for this “loop”.

      1. The main fire ran out of available fuel (not the case here)
      2. Aggressive suppression action to push the main fire around this area (again not the case here, when the fire went to shit resources were evacuated)
      3. A firing operation prior to the arrival of the main fire in an attempt to keep the main fire out of the youth camp

      In my opinion number 3 is the explanation for the “loop” in the fires edge (your mileage may vary). Fires shapes typically don’t “loop” in that manner without human intervention.

      • Charlie says

        Thanks Norb and if people knew your qualifications like I do they would perk up their listening. I know that is an expert opinion and Joy says there is enough evidence to bear it out certain. Well I saw the video and that was enough for me to know they were burning in there with drip torches. And Gary Olson’s favorite line–that is what we do–burn baby burn. Add to that the common sense that a burn was needed in that area then you have to sense that video was removed for a reason.

        Now to Joy I tried to download the Thompson thing and so slow I will try at a different hour. I do remember Thompson–his wife was deathly ill after the fire and retardant dumps and he had moved from Yarnell after I think his home was completely burned away. We went straight to his home in Sun City I think and talked to him–he was angry about the situation.

      • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

        Reply to Norb Szczurek post on January 7, 2019 at 11:52 am

        >> Norb Szczurek said…
        >>
        >> The other point of interest in this conversation is
        >> the fires shape on the fire perimeter map in this
        >> area (Youth Camp). The fires edge makes a distinct
        >> “loop” around what appears to me to be around the
        >> area of the Youth Camp.

        If you are talking about the ‘fire perimeter’ maps that appeared in both the original SAIT and ADOSH documents… then that little ‘loop’ clearly seen on Shrine Road is NOT around the Youth Camp.

        It’s actually around the Shrine of St. Joseph itself… which was known to have only ‘partially’ burned that day.

        Basically… everything west of the Shrine of St. Joseph itself, and on out into the Youth Camp and Harper Canyon areas… got ‘mooscaped’ by the fire.

        • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

          Whoops. Typo above.

          “mooscaped”?

          No… now cows were involved.

          “,moonscaped”… “toasted”…. “burned up”… etc.

  10. WantsToKnowTheTruth says

    Reply to Woodsman post on January 1, 2019 at 8:54 pm

    >> Woodsman said…
    >>
    >> Yes but we don’t have public information to even get close to making
    >> a determination of whether an ignition (if it happened coordinated
    >> or not) could have impacted GM.

    Actually, we do ( always have ).

    There is LOTS of other video and photographic evidence in the public record that shows pretty clearly how ( and when ) the fireline that ended up killing the GM hotshots approached ( and then entered ) that box canyon.

    That includes the Jerry Thompson photos/videos… which still do NOT support any significant ‘fire’ coming FROM the Shrine area, at any time that day, other than when the naturally advancing fireline finally entered that area and then burned on into Yarnell.

    >> Woodsman also said…
    >>
    >> What laypeople would think is insane may not be to those in the business.
    >> I’ve literally ran down an interior forest road before with a drip torch
    >> in order to stop an advancing fire before. But when I did that I was
    >> 100% certain nobody was between us and the main fire.

    Ah… but when you did that… were there also a bunch of crews and vehicles right behind you and trying to use that same road as their escape route at the same time you were out ahead of them and ‘lighting it up’?

    Because that’s the scenario we are talking about here ( and what I was referring to as insane ).

    As we try to nail down the timing of this mysterious video, and include the detail that the ‘wind was whipping the trees’… the only timeframe that now fits is a ‘burnout’ taking place right there in the Shrine Youth Camp area WHILE everyone who was still working there was trying to evacuate.

    If not ‘insane’… that still sounds pretty ‘risky’.

    >> Woodsman also said…
    >>
    >> A task force leader trainee is not going to be calling the
    >> shots (not supposed to be) on a geographical section of
    >> fireline. That’s the division or group supervisors job.

    Tyson Esquibel says ( above ) that it was NOT ‘his plan’. He was just in charge of ALL the crews that would have been called upon to execute it if/when that ‘order’ came down from Cordes.

    But he says that never happened, and there was never enough TIME to even ‘start’ that ‘burnout plan’.

    I don’t know if that is a crock of shit, or not.

    As long as we are revisiting all this… I’m just telling you what he testified to.

    >> Woodsman also said.
    >>
    >> In this case Cordes. What did he claim in official interviews
    >> in this big ignition plan?

    Same as Esquibel.

    Cordes detailed ( to ADOSH investigators ) the same ‘burnout’ plan, and the fact that it was ALMOST completed, but then there wasn’t enough time to do it and Cordes ordered ALL of those resources to GET OUT of that Shrine Youth Camp / Harper Canyon area.

    SPGS1 Gary Cordes’ one ( and only ) interview with ADOSH is here…

    https://www.dropbox.com/sh/20inrene9tcx74a/AAAS6KScxLx9RPUBzGLR9wFwa/ADOSH%20Yarnell%20Hill%20Investigation/Central%20Yavapai%20Fire%20District/Transcripts?dl=0&subfolder_nav_tracking=1

    There is also the testimony from Brian Frisby that at about 4:10 PM,SPGS1 Gary Cordes checked with him to see if there was still any chance of burning any part of the two-track… and Frisby said NO.

    From Brian Frisby’s handwritten Unit Log…
    ———————————————————–
    Approximate time: 4:10 PM, June 30, 2013
    I then headed for the Supt truck ( parked at the end of Lakewood and Manzanita pavement, where the dozer loboy had been staged as well ) I met ( Ball ) there and I was called by ( SPGS1 Gary Cordes ) on Tac 1 and he asked if burning the two-track was still an option. I told him NO, and that if it hasn’t yet, it will burn over the two-track very quickly. He copied and ( Eric Marsh ) called and agreed with what I said and he said where the ( GM ) trucks were parked was all black.

    ———————————————————–

    >> Woodsman also said…
    >>
    >> You sound somewhat convinced it didn’t happen.

    I am NOT ‘convinced’ of anything.

    I am NOT even trying to play “devil’s advocate” on this.

    I’m just trying to find out what can be ‘discovered’ about this mysterious video and whether more details can ever be determined about it… but also ‘balanced’ against other existing ( conflicting? ) evidence.

    I never saw this mysterious video.

    I am totally relying on the people who say they did to try and recall as much as possible about what they saw.

    And you are one of those persons, right?

    ———————————————————-
    On December 18, 2018 at 11:14 am, Woodsman said…

    I also saw a video showing 2 firefighters performing a manual burnout that I have never been able to locate since. It was probably July of 2013 when I saw it. I reviewed the 3 videos wwtktt posted & none were it. I remember the wind direction was away from the road so it was a head fire not a fire backing into the wind. I may have seen a red type 6 in it but I can’t say for sure. 2 firefighters on the ground with torches I do recall. Hearsay evidence I came into tells me firefighters that have participated in staff rides have made comments amongst themselves (within earshot of others) talking about it. That’s the best I can do right now on that.
    ——————————————————————————————-

    So you say you remember the ‘wind direction’ was AWAY from the road.

    Do you also remember how HARD the wind was blowing?

    Was it ‘bending’ and/or ‘whipping’ the trees… like others have reported?

    If it was… then that really narrows down the TIME this video could have possibly been shot, if it was, indeed, shot on June 30, 2013.

    You have also never ‘chimed in’ regarding this rock wall/foundation thing, as seen in the video.

    Did YOU see any kind of rock wall/foundation, like others are reporting?

    Did you ever take a look at this video that Joy shot just over a week ago there at this supposedly ‘verified’ location where the burnout video was filmed?

    https://youtu.be/zn9Jpi4Lxyw

    Can YOU verify that this video Joy took shows the same location as the video YOU saw?

    >> Woodsman also said…
    >>
    >> I’m convinced it’s possible it did which depending on many
    >> factors, may have impacted the crew. I’m convinced it’s likely
    >> many have been deceitful in their interviews and provided
    >> erroneous or incomplete information to official investigators.

    Of course that is possible.

    Let’s keep the discussion going and try and see if we can PROVE it ( or not ).

    >> Woodsman also said…
    >>
    >> I want to know the truth.

    Me too.

    • Woodsman says

      Wtktt,

      I don’t recall seeing a rock wall or old foundation in the video way back when. The wind I remember as maybe 10-12 mph…not light not “whipping” just moderate. I recall 2 firefighters with drip torches & the wind direction right to left in the frame with the burnout on the left side of the road/dozer push, moving left in frame (away from the road. )

      I don’t recognize Joys video. The sky was not dark & the wind wasn’t whipping. One of the 3 videos you posted a few weeks ago that you said was always available looked close but the wind direction was wrong. It was low fuels shrubs & grass no timber.

      The one fire I talked about stopping a head fire with a backfire years ago was on our escape route. The rest of the firefighters on scene were positioned to get the heck out before we lit it. In fact I remember setting that one from the end where we would be trapped if it didn’t work towards the escape direction we would use to get the heck out anyway.

      Never underestimate people trying to do the right thing without realizing they are putting others in harm’s way because they think they know what they’re doing – but actually do not.

      Was it Bucky or Hulburd who said “why are they in there?” In there in front of What? The actual fire flame front or a set One? That’s one thing I’d like to know.

        • Woodsman says

          Possibly. It is difficult to recall in detail a video I saw over 5 years ago. Especially since I was combing the internet for anything that could help answer why this most unbelievable tragedy happened when it did. I still can’t hardly believe to this day how we could possibly lose an entire hotshot crew, save 1. I guess that’s what keeps me from giving up trying to figure it out.

          • Charlie says

            Woodsman, yes 5 years ago is a long time to remember details from, at least in my case. However you never forget the fact that drip torches were being used in that Shrine area on the left side of the road. With the wind going to the west it had to be sometime after the wind changed diredtions. When I topped the mountains at around noon I could already feel the air movement beginning to switch directions, although at that time the wind was very mild. It was one of the reasons I went back to get hold of Joy. Joy is a very determined personality and changing her mind his not an easy task once she has it made up. For instance early morning while the fire was still in the boulders atop the Weavers we were at the exact spot where the men perished later that day. I wanted to go straight up to the two track since it would have been a shorter, although much steeper route to get to the two track. In effect we would have had much less manzanita jungle to fight our way through. Instead Joy determined that we should go around the North ridge of the Death Canyon which meant about twice the distance of manzanita brush to manage but without the steep incline. Joy insisted that she had much more time hiking that area and knew the route was a better way that what I wanted to do. That was true since she had made many hikes in there for years before with Snake Man and others looking at mines, etc. So, it was either do my thing and let her do hers or take her route. It did not matter a lot at that point and I would not have felt good leaving her alone in that mess as it was. True to form, the long route in a gentle slope and does come out at the two track at the base of the steep part of the Weavers. It was quite a relief to me to find that two track since now there was a clear trail to the top.

            Yes ever since we saw the video and took pains to verify that they were using drip torches in the Shrine area I had always wanted to know more about it. But when we went back to find the video it had disappeared the same as that document laying aside a mapped half section of the area as extreme fire danger. Now I do not know why they would have mapped out an area and have a document signed and sealed about that area on June 16, 2013, two weeks before lightening struck the Weavers

            As I remember, It was a clear day that the lightening struck but it is known that lightening can strike miles away from a storm area. Several people had actually witnessed the strike–all we saw was the smoke and that was pointed out to us by Rhonda, Joys friend that was working at the Congress Gas Station. That is when Joy said we need to go there–she had hiked up in that area from the West side of the Weavers which is an arduous hike though lots of rock and boulder areas, however vegetation is sparse on that side of the Weavers–that fact easily seen by anyone leaving Congress toward Yarnell.

            So I do know it was a fact that they were torching the Shrine area on the west side of that dirt road. I know also it is a fact that Peeples Valley Chief did all he could to hide the fact that he or his crew had even been in the area. (Joy has his recorded interview and had spent more than a year trying to get FOIA records. To this day I do not know if she was ever successful–she had told the Chief she would file suit if necessary but whether her efforts ever succeeded I do not know. She would have to answer that question. I do know Joy uncovered the fact that there was also Flagstaff and Prescott firemen in the area on the day of the deaths. Nothing was ever said anywhere about that and if she got records from them I do not know. However I know she interviewed some of the people–men and women that were in the area, including firemen on those aforementioned crews.

            Now why would you hide information like that. Those reports should have been foremost in any investigation. Wild Land Firefighting is not an area that requires secrecy–it is not a war against Russia or the Viet Cong or the Terrorist Organizations we are dealing with these days. It is a war against the elements caused by nature or mankind and the interested citizens that pay the taxes that support these heroes and public servants that fight the fires deserve to have full details of their actions. And by law–something that Joy by know should know damn well with the many FOIA reports she has had to squeeze out of these public servants.

            So you can go along with the God theory and Oh those boys were just trying to save Yarnell theory all you want–but none of it adds up when details have been so redacted and hidden from public view that Fire people have been willing to lie or withhold information. (Donut a prime example there–but I was there when Eddie said he got a letter demanding he keep mum on anything he saw).

            The actions we have seen concerning the management of the Yarnell fire and the unfortunate killing of the 19 demands full details of events from every person, crew and witness concerning the Yarnell Death Fire.

            I do hope certain individuals of high esteem and positions get the Congressional hearing they are seeking. I want to see the likes of that Chief I mentioned and others lie to the Congressmen–I have noticed that even some high positioned people that have gone before Congress with their lies have been sent to prison. Not much tolerance there for liars.

            So yes, it is necessary to keep the thing alive concerning the Shrine Burn–It happened as sure as I am writing this — I saw it on video as did a number of other people that were researching the fire. I wonder if Wootson and Morrison saw the video–they wrote a good paper on the fire at Yarnell. But it satisified me just by seeing it on video and taking the time and energy not only to visit the area were the rock wall foundation thing is but also because we felt it such an important viewing that Joy and I even went to Peeples Valley and up the dirt roads there to see if there was a possible twin to the area that we might have missed. Sorry, but the burn out did happen–why it is hidden has yet to be revealed.

            I talked to a man today–Bob Roberts–whom I had purchased a guitar amp from. I want him to repair an acoustic guitar I purchased that was brand new and made in El Paso. The damn thing had the bridge and neck bridge so low that you could not fret it without the strings twanging against the frets. People are getting sloppy in their craftsmanship, although the guitar has a great look. As we were talking he mentioned how he was a drill sergeant during the Viet Nam era–two years older than I am and was drafted at 26. We got to talking and he at 16 had his kidneys shut down so he was facing death–doctors told him there was no way to heal. Well some old preacher prayed over him and a few months later a trip back to the doctors and he was totally healed–something they could not explain.

            It brought to mind the Yarnell deaths of the 19 and I mentioned it. He said well God must have had something else for those men. I said no, God if he is good would never snuff out young lives for the fun of it or because he needed to do that. I said at least two men, their bosses, were responsible for those deaths. They did everything wrong that a wild land fire fighter boss should know concerning keeping their men safe–they needlessly risked their crew’s lives and in doing so killed them. He said, you know, you would be right in that instance if that is the way it happened.

            He gave me a nice little thing he made up of a picture of the three crosses, a cowboy hat and a pair of worn snake hide cowboy boots with a saying “Las Cruces, New Mexico–The City of Three Crosses–Where no one stands alone.” Well it has a reistra of chilies in the picture as well.

            No one stands alone on the Investigative Media Site concerning the search for the truth either.

            • says

              Charlie,
              So glad to see you recovered well enough from your gunshot injury to share your memories of the burn in the Shrine area.
              I have been reading your comments and learning.
              At first I thought that GMHS left the black to go to Yarnell to protect structures and residents but now I am thinking that they could have been responding to the need to stop the fire from entering Glen Ilah and Yarnell by providing the expertise and manpower needed to properly execute this type of operation.
              Maybe the radio messages to “hurry up” were for this purpose. Firefighters on scene in the Shrine corridor may have waited as long as they could for GMHS and then carried out the burn themselves doing the best they could but it got out of control and burned through Glen Isla and caught GMHS.
              These are my thoughts at this point. I am not skilled in the firefighting industry. I am a retired teacher trying to make sense of this disaster.

              • Charlie says

                Thanks Diane and it is good to hear from you and yes quite a feat to survive that last incident. I really feel we would have survived the fire as well had we been that close to the boulder field but it seems after all there were other factors that had not been brought up.

                Like you, I have had a long learning curve. One thing is certain, the story that the men were headed there to protect structures is false. Any wild land fire fighter that was watching what Joy and I were seeing knew it would be fruitless to even attempt to detain a fire like that. Then knew there was absolutely no reason to drop down into that death canyon so thick that Willis described it as a place no ordinary citizen could transverse. Well he should have added no ordinary Bear either–unless they knew how to Bear Wallow. And there were wallowed places in the area.

                Way back the wild land fighters were saying that every rule in the safety book of wild land fire fighting were broken–and every wild land fire fighter–mostly commanders retired saw the situation and said hell no, I would never allow my crew to get trapped down there in that canyon with the fire about to change direction.

                Sad part is that Steed gave in to Marsh after some of Marsh’s cajoling. Why I do not know since Steed was a Marine and with his fire savvy he had to know that he had less than a 50-50 to make it to the Helms. He would have damn well known that you let the Big Dog Eat and you absolutely stay in the safety zone with those young lives at stake.

                If you had the view Joy and I had at 11:30 or thereabout, you would have immediately recognized that even an army of a thousand men would be useless against such a monster. Flames laying down parallel to the ground and tornadoes of fire that equal the release of an atom bomb every 15 minutes according to the reports of the fire specialists Wooten and Morrison–facts that these men had to know from their training. Never ever get uphill from a fire with a storm in the distance about to reverse winds on you and especially in a canyon that becomes a chimney funnel for the wind and fire. Fire advance doubles in velocity every ten degrees of slope and can you imagine winds of 45mph–something they had experienced before and knew the dangers.

                So with all these factors they knew what we citizens had to ferret out–fortunately Joy and I had hiked so many experienced wild land fire fighters we began to realize that there was plenty stink in the reports put out. Most of it does not make sense once you understand what Marsh did to kill the men and then you understand why you see so many commanders want a true take on the debacle.

                I do hope an FBI person gets hold of his and a thorough background check on Marsh and Steed proceeds. FBI has some of the world’s best profilers and to do justice, a psychological evaluation of those men all the way back to their childhood should be done and evaluated. Only madness on the part of Marsh can explain what he did to his crew–and it behooves us to know why Steed would give in to his demands despite knowing what he was going at a less than 50-50 chance to make it though that canyon.

                I hope this year brings some closure–Dr. Ted Putnam worked on the Man Gulch thing some 6 or 7 years–near Helena, Montana. He came to a startling conclusion on a cover up that occurred there killing I think 14 men and he also was head death investigator at the Storm King Fire in Colorado–31 deaths if I remember right–one he could not sign off on even though he was chief investigator.

                He sees the same things going on here and hopefully will be a big factor in the changes needed to prevent such tragedies

                Apologies for the long almost tirade at the system as it is. I did feel so much sadness and sometimes could not pass that monument without tears knowing that those young men were deprived of the best part of their lives needlessly. I feel compassion for the loved ones since I too lost a son–for the same reason–careless bosses..

                • Charlie says

                  Correct that 14 at Storm King fire –Yarnell has been the largest tragedy and 13 at Mann Gulch. I mistyped 31 when 19 has been the greatest number

                  • Bob Powers says

                    The Rattle Snake fire was the largest FF death 15 until the Yarnell Hill Fire of 19. For 60 years the Rattle Snake fire held the distinction. Not something any one should be proud of.

      • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

        Reply to Woodsman post on January 2, 2019 at 8:04 am

        >> Woodsman said…
        >>
        >> I don’t recall seeing a rock wall or old foundation in the
        >> video way back when.
        >>
        >> The wind I remember as maybe 10-12 mph…not light not
        >> “whipping” just moderate.
        >>
        >> I recall 2 firefighters with drip torches & the wind direction
        >> right to left in the frame with the burnout on the left side
        >> of the road/dozer push, moving left in frame (away from the road. )
        >>
        >> I don’t recognize Joys video.
        >>
        >> The sky was not dark & the wind wasn’t whipping.

        First and foremost… THANK YOU for hanging in there on this and for the straightforward, honest ( and coherent ) response(s).

        These kinds of responses are going to be the only way to ever get the cows anywhere near the barn on this issue.

        It’s starting to sound like you *may* have seen a completely DIFFERENT video than the one Joy and Sonny have been talking about with the ‘rock wall’ and the ‘wind blowing the trees’.

        It’s entirely possible that a number of different videos emerged publicly not long after the tragedy, and then they all might have ‘disappeared’ later on.

        Example: The YouTube user 4490red originally published about a number of different videos he took in Yarnell on June 30, 2013 on his public YouTube page… but then he removed them all when someone informed him they were being referenced and discussed here on this ongoing public forum.

        SIDENOTE: As has been reported on this forum some time ago… the ‘YouTube’ user with the name ‘4490red’ is actually Arizona Globe DOC Type 2 Crew Staff Officer Anthony Caulfield. He and his Globe DOC Crew were assigned to do structure protection on the north side of the fire, in Peeples Valley, on June 30, 2013. Following the deployment, they were ‘staged’ at the U-Store-It storage facility on the north side of Yarnell proper.

        >> Woodsman also said…
        >>
        >> One of the 3 videos you posted a few weeks ago that you said
        >> was always available looked close but the wind direction was
        >> wrong. It was low fuels shrubs & grass no timber.

        Those were the 3 videos that were shot by one of the Prescott National Forest FFs ( Jason Clawson, KC ‘Bucky’ Yowelll and Aaron Hulburd ) who were there on Hays Ranch Road with their ATVs while those burnouts were taking place.

        They were part of that original package of 21 videos that were eventually ‘popped loose’ from U.S. Forestry via an FOIA request from John Dougherty and InvestigativeMEDIA.

        Since you recall that it was sometime in July of 2013 when you saw the video, it’s actually highly UNLIKELY that it was one of those three ASFD videos eventually released by the Prescott National Forest and U.S. Forestry.

        That would have been ‘too soon’ for them to be appearing anywhere on a public website.

        Aaron Hulburd’s 21 videos were made available to the the original SAIT right away, following the incident, but then Mike Dudley, Jim Karels, Brad Mayhew, and the rest of the SAI team did everything they could to HIDE the videos and make sure they never saw the light of day.

        So that is why it’s highly unlikely that a video YOU might have seen ( publicly ) in July of 2013 was actually one of those ‘secret’ ASFD videos. It took a long time for them to ‘pop loose’ and become public.

        However… there were a LOT of firefighters who had been working out there at Hays Ranch Road and might have also been shooting videos of this same Hays Ranch Road burnout operation. I suppose it’s possible that one of THEM may have posted a similar video but then ended up removing it.

        >> Woodsman also said…
        >>
        >> Never underestimate people trying to do the right thing without realizing
        >> they are putting others in harm’s way because they think they know what
        >> they’re doing – but actually do not.

        That pretty much sums up the decision making that was going on in Yarnell on the afternoon of June 30, 2013… and especially the decision making on the part of Eric Marsh and Jesse Steed.

        Whatever was going on between THEM… and whatever THEY thought they might be trying to accomplish… they FORGOT ( or just din’t care ) how many OTHER lives they were gambling with that day.

        >> Woodsman also said…
        >>
        >> Was it Bucky or Hulburd who said “why are they in there?”

        It was KC ‘Bucky’ Yowell, at +1:53 in the Aaron Hulburd video M2U00266R, which was filmed on Shrine Road starting at 4:47 PM and is 5 minutes and 39 seconds long.

        Video M2U00266R
        https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-bfvu4xIbHU&feature=youtu.be

        Actual transcript from that part of the video…
        ——————————————————————————
        +1:37 ( 1649:06 / 4:49:06 PM )
        (Foreground: Aaron Hulburd): Probly in their shelters right now.

        +1:38 ( 1649:07 / 4:49:07 PM )
        (Background: OPS1 Todd Abel): Ah… any communication yet?

        +1:40 ( 1649:09 / 4:49:09 PM )
        (Background: Bravo 33 – John Burfiend): No. Negative. Ah… Tanker nine one zero thought… uh… he heard him but… uh… I haven’t been able to get anything.

        +1:41 ( 1649:10 / 4:49:10 PM )
        (Foreground: Jason Clawson): They weren’t in the black?

        +1:47 ( 1649:16 / 4:49:16 PM )
        (Foreground: KC ‘Bucky’ Yowell): Yea.

        +1:48 ( 1649:17 / 4:49:17 PM )
        (Foreground: Aaron Hulburd): They’re in here. Right… right here. Right behind here…

        +1:49 ( 1649:18 / 4:49:18 PM )
        (Foreground: KC ‘Bucky’ Yowell): Why did they…

        +1:51 ( 1649:20 / 4:49:20 PM )
        (Foreground: Aaron Hulburd): Yea.

        +1:52 ( 1649:21 / 4:49:21 PM )
        (Foreground: Jason Clawson): So they were in danger.

        +1:53 ( 1649:22 / 4:49:22 PM )
        (Foreground: KC ‘Bucky’ Yowell): ( With disbelief in his voice ) Yea. WHY?

        ————————————————————————————-

        >> Woodsman said…
        >>
        >> In there in front of What?
        >> The actual fire flame front or a set One?
        >> That’s one thing I’d like to know.

        At that point ( 4:49 PM ), Aaron Hulburd believed that the GM Hotshots had actually deployed just west of where they were standing, somewhere ‘behind’ what they could see standing there on Shrine Road.

        They had seen the GM buggies come out and pass them, going east on Shrine Road, and they all agreed that all they had seen were ‘drivers’ in the buggies.

        So Aaron Hulburd was assuming that their ‘work location’ had been somewhere back there on Shrine Road and they just didn’t make it out in their buggies.

        There is never any conversation between any of the Prescott National Forest FFs, ( in any of Aaron Hulburd’s videos that were shot on Shrine Road about any kind of ‘burnout’ there in that area.

        • Woodsman says

          Thanks for all of that rehash, WTKTT.

          I absolutely recall searching online right away when I found out about the loss of the crew for anything & everything I could find about what the frick just happened. Oh, to go back in time & save that stuff. I was in shock at the time. I searched daily & I remember just about blowing a gasket when I viewed the “SAIR” animated video of “We’ll never really know what happened ” fame. Pissed me off. Still does. Thanks

          • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

            Reply to Woodsman post on January 2, 2019 at 7:56 pm

            >> Woodsman said…
            >>
            >> Thanks for all of that rehash, WTKTT.
            >>
            >> I absolutely recall searching online right away when I found out
            >> about the loss of the crew for anything & everything I could find
            >> about what the frick just happened. Oh, to go back in time & save
            >> that stuff. I was in shock at the time. I searched daily & I remember
            >> just about blowing a gasket when I viewed the “SAIR” animated video
            >> of “We’ll never really know what happened ” fame.
            >>
            >> Pissed me off. Still does.

            Same here.

            Thanks again for hanging in there and answering some questions about the whole ‘video’ thing.

            I don’t know where it all goes from here… but at least the recent discussion has cleared up some details about what people did ( or did NOT ) see in the video(s).

            It will still probably take some people finally coming forward ( more than one? ) and admitting they participated in one of these ‘burnouts’ in order to clear up this ‘mystery’.

          • Charlie says

            Yes Woodsman–details 5 years ago–only the important thing someone was doing a burn out when two men were lighting up foilage in the Shrine video.

    • Charlie says

      Well one truth is there were drip torches being used in the Shrine area–time has to be determined. How the hell can videos be redacted–There must be someone that copied those and especially the person that posted them, then removed them. Whew, the military organization works its magic as it wants. How about that letter as well that we had seen and is now nowhere to be found? Very suspicious behavior when those things happen. We want to know who did it and why.

      • Charlie says

        Again WTKTT–I would stand before Congress or any Judge and swear on my Irish Gods and Mothers grave as to what I saw and that video was brought to my attention by Joy. We were both amazed to the point that we made the trip to the Shrine rock wall foundation thing to verify that was the area they were using Drip torches in the video. We also made a trip to Peeples Valley. Now explicit details other than firemen using drip torches might be brought up by hypnosis–it has been years. Perhaps Joy remembers more than I could have in my memory bank. Our problem was then that we did not know how crafty people that are in the fire cover up scheme of things, else I am certain Joy would have copied that video. You assume you can go back to it and as I remember we did but a short time after it disappeared.

        So in effect, there was a back burn or burn out–makes sense for the area there and that is what Gary Olson has said wild land fire fighters do–they burn. The video may never be found not the time proven but you can know it happened and I had no reason to lie, nor does Joy, Norb nor Woodsman and the tall lady that directed Joy to the video passed away. Joy knows her name. They saw what they saw–we saw it and made sure it was being done in the Shrine area. What it proves is that people in certain high positions can get things redacted and put out a story that matches their heroic job at Yarnell and God fucked up theory–well I mean needed those men somewhere else –wild fires in heaven?

    • Charlie says

      Woodsman, that July time 2013 would be confirmed since that was about the time we saw it as I remember–well we had been living in a basketball court on cots provided by Red Cross for 7 days before being allowed to go back in but it was some time we were there–maybe a week or two before the video was discovered–not by Joy but by another lady at the library who directed Joy to that and then Joy had me see it. The photo of the earlier paper putting that half section aside on June 16, 2013 I believe was discovered by Joy alone and then showed to me. The seal on it was impressive but when we went to try to find it again, that also was redacted.

      When FS or other State officials do such, it means they have something to hide in my opinion. Then you begin to mistrust the whole system.

      That is why I hope someone looks into the amount of retardant dumped and see if it is a true record or another fluke. A whistle blower gets 15% where people are stiffing the government. And that could add to millions for someone. If you can play games with the truth on a fire incident, how about where it is possible to line your pockets? But that would take someone on the inside who has access to the records and can show the malpractice.

  11. Woodsman says

    Well, well, well. What have we got here? On their homepage the Peeples Valley fire department shows beyond all doubt that they have driptorches in their inventory & they use them. Let the photos on their homepage scroll & focus on photo 15. Interesting.

    http://peeplesvalleyfire.org

    Check out all of the other wildland related photos on their website. Gotta have the VLAT photos & dirty blackened yellow shirts too….hey, they’re the real deal!

    I’m gettin a real bad feeling on this one. Anyone else feeling me? Something you wanna get off your chest, Mr. Brandon?

    • Woodsman says

      And I’m willing to bet that’s one of the newer red painted driptorches mounted on the bed of their type 6 engine on the drivers side behind the cab. It’s possible it’s a fire extinguisher but?

      Hurry & check out the photos before they’re scrubbed. Something stinks…stinks real bad.

      What other fire departments were known to be in the Shrine area?

    • Charlie says

      Thanks again Woodsman, I had to laugh at that one. Robert Brandon is the new Chief–after the Yarnell incident he had given a talk at the home of Dr. Anderson with several people in attendance. Dr. Anderson is now passed but gave a summary of what was said to Joy–he was after told to keep quiet no more talks.

      He knows plenty since he was in the Shrine area that day and had discussed his participation there–but I was not privy to what was said except Joy does know what was told to her from Dr. Anderson. I do not know if she will report on that —

      Yes they are experienced with those drip torches–I do not remember for sure if the drip torch guy wore white hats or yellow–but seeing the yellow now it seems to jog my memory that the hats were yellow. I will have to check with Joy — It was the burning that got my attention and I was not paying attention to their clothes, etc. but likely Joy did. We were interested to see the drip torches being used–and as I remember, it was not Joy that found the video–another person at the Yarnell library showed Joy the video as I remember Joy saying.

      At the time we were being chastised for looking into the fire–it was upsetting the Librarian because we were investigating everything about the fire at the time. So many people just wanted to go along with the flow and not question things we knew were out of order. There are still people that hate the idea that anyone would even question the way the investigation was played out.

    • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

      Reply to Woodsman post on December 31, 2018 at 10:47 pm

      >> Woodsman said…
      >>
      >> Well, well, well. What have we got here?
      >> On their homepage the Peeples Valley fire department shows beyond
      >> all doubt that they have driptorches in their inventory & they use them.

      Maybe NOW they do… but back in 2013 the Peeples Valley firefighters who were interviewed by both ADOSH and SAIT said they did NOT have “any skills” whatsoever to even assist with any ‘burnouts’.

      There’s never been any question which Peeples Valley firefighters ( and which of their vehicles ) had been assigned to the Shrine area on June 30, 2013.

      Both the SAIT and ADOSH investigation reports had those details.

      From the very top of the SAIT interview notes with the four Peeples Valley firefighters who had been assigned to the Shrine area…

      ————————————————————————————————–
      Interviewed Peeples Valley, Jacob Moder, Ronald Smith, Bob Brandon and Matthew Keehner on E54 and T64 FD units, structure protection working under Tyson TFLD (t)
      —————————————————————————————————

      Same information was repeated/confirmed in the ADOSH intervew with Peeples Valley FD…

      From PDF page 4 of document entitled “L3419 Notes redacted.pdf” in the ADOSH evidence folder.
      —————————————————————————————————
      7/29/2013 – ADOSH opening conference with Peeples Valley Fire Department

      I spoke with Shane Chaves today July 29, 2013. Mr. Chaves works for the Yavapai Sheriff’s Department and was the Acting Fire Chief with the Peeples Valley Fire Department during the Yarnell Hill Fire.

      Mr. Chaves stated that he had four firefighters and two engines assigned to the Yarnell Hill Fire (Structure Group 1) who were working off of Shrine Road west of Yarnell on the south end of a dozer line

      Employee interviews – spoke with Captain McCray and Fire Captain Jake Moder

      Four man crew and two engines were at the Yarnell Hill Fire assigned to Structural 1 protection and fire line construction and were working off of Shrine road waiting for a Dozer to arrive.

      The four man crew consisted of the following FFs…

      Fire Captain Jake Moder
      Fire Captain Ron Smith
      Bob Brandon
      Matt Keehner

      Spoke with Jake Moder.

      Captain Moder stated that Peeples Valley was assigned by BLM to the Yarnell Hill Fire on June 30, 2013 at 0400 and was to report to Model Creek School at 0730. A briefing was held at 0800, crew was assigned to Structure 1 protection in Yarnell. IC Task Force Leader was Trainee Tyson Esquibel from Peoria Fire Department. Crew was stationed on Shrine Road waiting for a Dozer. Dozer eventually dug a fireline that ended at a wash. Lots of chainsaw work being done by the crew to tie into ridge north of Yarnell. Made contact with a spotter from Central Yavapai Fire District.

      Matt Keehner was assigned to scout area and serve as a temporary lookout and was assisted by CYFD fire fighter.

      Wind shifted at 1545 and everyone immediately evacuated the area.
      ———————————————————————————————-

      ** PEEPLES VALLEY FIREFIGHTERS SAID THEY DID NOT HAVE
      ** THE ‘SKILLS’ TO DO ANY KIND OF BURNOUT ON JUNE 30, 2013

      According to the SAIT interview notes, the 4 Peeples Valley firefighters assigned to the Shrine area participated in a discussion, around 3:00 PM, about prepping and burning out the dozer line back to the Shrine area.

      But not only do the interview notes say this ‘burnout’ did NOT take place, the notes also say the Peeples Valley firefighters did NOT want to participate in the plan, even if initiated, because they did not have the (quote) “skills to do any kind of burning”.

      From the SAIT interview notes…
      —————————————————————————————————
      Central Yavapai + BR discuss prep and burn out to house to dozer line back to Shrine area, however they did not initiate the burn. Peeples discussion was they didn’t want to do it because they don’t have those skills to do any kind of burning, around 1500.
      —————————————————————————————————

      So… if it ever turns out that the Peeples Valley FFs were doing ANY kind of ‘burning’ on June 30, 2013 then they lied their asses off to BOTH the SAIT and ADOSH investigators.

      • Joy A Collura says

        shit- I am in a project
        I have to finish it in a few days

        then off to next conference

        Sorry

        I want to soooo bad jump off it to answer this iin FULL DETAIL

        but I am signed under another area

        man

        Bob Brandon just sent me data
        Wtkkt- remind me about this via email in 2 weeks

        shit

        I am on fire wanting to stop what I am doing but I cannot

        sigh

        remind me…I do have those public records where they state Peeples Valley’s able functions June 30, 2013

        man

        • Joy A Collura says

          I cannot even try to log in under another device

          shit

          YES- remind me soon ( 2 weeks back channel) because I actually HAVE the Peeples Valley documentation of their allowance in that area June 30, 2013

      • Woodsman says

        Thanks, WTKTT. The information in your posts creates more questions for me than answers. (I know you’re reporting on what ended up in the official investigation records, which I appreciate)

        So, different groups of firefighters from different agencies discussed burning out the Shrine area but apparently no one claims (on record) that they “initiated it?” I can read this testimony 2 ways:

        1. The discussed ground ignition in the Shrine area didn’t take place….”initiated ” started, etc.

        2. The discussed ground ignition in the Shrine area DID take place, started, performed, etc…..but members of Peeples VFD were not the “initiators” or the one’s who started the ignition.

        In essence, for me personally, the interview notes you posted is not sufficient evidence for me to be convinced ground ignition did not occurr in the Shrine area late afternoon on June 30, 2013. They simply claim they were not the ones to initiate it.

        Is it possible for an interpreter of the interview notes in this instance to place too much faith and trust as to the accuracy and truthfulness of the account? I mean, really, if what I’m saying may have occurred actually took place, the potential civil and/or criminal liability exposure to the participants would be effectively ‘through the roof,’ thus creating a fairly strong incentive for deception if not outright lying when questioned about it.

        What other personnel where in the Shrine area the afternoon of June 30, 2013?

        • Woodsman says

          I should restate: perceived civil and/or criminal liability exposure created an incentive to lie or deceive….because we know there is more to the story. Ie: the lack of coordination between forces potentially trapping a crew with an ignition, etc.

        • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

          Reply to Woodsman post on January 1, 2019 at 6:08 pm

          >> Woodsman said…
          >>
          >> What other personnel where in the Shrine area
          >> the afternoon of June 30, 2013?

          Everyone ( except Hotshot crews GM and BR ) who was ‘officially’ working in the Yarnell area the afternoon of June 30, 2013 was working under the direction of TFLD(t) Tyson Esquibel, whose direct supervisor was SPGS1 Gary Cordes.

          So any ‘official’ burnouts that might have taken place were under Esquibel’s direct command.

          Here is what TFLD(t) Tyson Esquibel told the ADOSH investigators when he was asked directly whether or not this ‘planned burnout’ was ever ( officially ) initiated…

          Q = Bruce Hanna, ADOSH investigator
          A = TFLD(t) Tyson Esquibel
          ——————————————————————————
          3189 A: I think we had a solid plan in place to complete this burnout…
          3190
          3191 Q: Mm-hm.
          3192
          3193 A: …and likely if that, uh, thunderhead wouldn’t have been right above us, we
          3194 probably could’ve been successful with that.

          3231
          3232 Q: That was the plan, though, huh?
          3233
          3234 A: That was the plan.
          3235
          3236 Q: High on this heel, dings – dozer line, and then what was gonna be done in
          3237 here? Nothing?
          3238
          3239 A: Well, we were gonna burn out around this part and just keep it completely out
          3240 of there.
          3241
          3242 Q: Did you guys ever burn it out?
          3243
          3244 A: No, sir. We didn’t have time.

          3245
          3246 Q: You were gonna fire that area, I guess?
          3247
          3248 A: Um, the plan was that evening or night, if we got it done and everything in
          3249 place.
          3250
          3251 Q: Okay. The fire was just too…
          3252
          3253 A: Proposed – it was proposed.
          3254
          3255 Q: Whose idea was that?
          3256
          3257 A: Um, I’m not sure. It – it probably came down from operations.
          3258
          3259 Q: Does it work.
          3260
          3261 A: Does – does burnouts work?
          3262
          3263 Q: Yeah.
          3264
          3265 A: Yes, definitely. They work very well.
          3266
          3267 Q: Even with all that extreme brush and fire and wind and…
          3268
          3269 A: Yeah, I think if we wouldn’t have got the strong winds, I think it would’ve
          3270 been a great plan.
          3271
          3272 Q: It would’ve worked?
          3273
          3274 A: Yes, sir.

          —————————————————————————-

          So if TFLD(t) Esquibel isn’t also lying his ass off… then anyone who may have started a coordinated drip-torch burnout in the Shrine Youth Camp area would have been totally ‘freelancing’ and doing that OUTSIDE of Esquibel’s command.

          ** TREES BLOWING IN THE WIND

          If one of the other well-described things seen in that mysterious video is that the ‘winds were blowing the trees’ really hard… then that helps put a TIME on when that video could have been filmed near that Shrine Youth camp, where ALL of the Task Force and GM and BR vehicles were parked.

          Tyson Esquibel testified that the wind didn’t ‘ramp up’ in that area ( to the degree that people have said the trees were seen blowing in the video ) until 4:22 PM that day.

          He actually wrote that time down in his own official ‘Unit Log’ and was referring to that written time during his ADOSH interview…

          Q = Bruce Hanna, ADOSH investigator
          A = TFLD(t) Tyson Esquibel
          ———————————————————————————
          2135 Q: Okay. So 1622, you said the winds have gone up to 45 miles an hour.
          2136
          2137 A: Yeah. I mean, it was, uh, a gust came out of the west, um, and it went from
          2138 zero to 45. It was no, uh, gradual.

          ———————————————————————————

          At 4:22 PM… the shit was already hitting the fan out at the Shrine Youth Camp, with ‘multiple spots’ igniting from the flames that were already cresting the northern ridge, and everyone who was out there was already hauling ass to evacuate east on Shrine road.

          It still seems unlikely anyone ( even if just freelancers ) would have ‘stopped’, at that point, to just light some stupid bushes up on the side of the road. That actually would have been an insane thing to do, at that point, since everyone was trying to use that exact corridor to get the hell out of there at that exact time.

          So getting the exact TIME nailed down for this mysterious video is still one of the ‘next steps’ to getting this all figure out.

          If it was BEFORE 4:22 PM… then the trees would not have been ‘whipping in the wind’.

          If it was AT or AFTER 4:22 PM… then regardless of how insane that might have been to be doing such a thing at that time, in that place, it really could not possibly have had anything to do with what eventually happened out in the box canyon.

          • Woodsman says

            Yes but we don’t have public information to even get close to making a determination of whether an ignition (if it happened coordinated or not) could have impacted GM. What laypeople would think is insane may not be to those in the business. I’ve literally ran down an interior forest road before with a drip torch in order to stop an advancing fire before. But when I did that I was 100% certain nobody was between us and the main fire.

            A task force leader trainee is not going to be calling the shots (not supposed to be) on a geographical section of fireline. That’s the division or group supervisors job. In this case Cordes. What did he claim in official interviews in this big ignition plan? Everyone is saying it didnt happen or pointing fingers elsewhere.

            You sound somewhat convinced it didn’t happen. I’m convinced it’s possible it did which depending on many factors, may have impacted the crew. I’m convinced it’s likely many have been deceitful in their interviews and provided erroneous or incomplete information to official investigators. I want to know the truth.

            • Woodsman says

              And let me be clear, a backfire CAN be a good call. It may be your only viable option to stop a fire that’s about impact structures depending on conditions one finds themselves in. If the fire is going to blow through there anyway, you have a chance to stop it with fire. BUT….timing is everything. Well, not everything but it’s crucial for timing to be spot on to be successful. Another major consideration is 100% coordination with all resources on scene. Everyone needs to be on the same page. So what some think is crazy is actually not. It can be the right call to make & the only option.

              It’s vitally important experienced and competent professionals perform these tactics. If I’m not mistaken, I think Rocksteady is an ignition specialist from the great white North. Ask him he’ll tell you I’m right.

              I’m telling you. This entire hybridization of municipal firefighters with drip torches is a really, really bad idea.

              • Joy A Collura says

                I have heard from on the YH Fire line – those folks to folks just in the Fire Industry say exactly what Woodsman is saying and I think Norb needs to do number six on this one of the fire orders – reevaluate – because what Woodsman is saying does not pertain to all hybrids but there is a larger number being groomed incorrectly – I will soon be training to be a hybrid so I will let you know soon enough HOW the current ways are training – yeah funny I have the key points memorized, eh…weather, observe, action, ER/SZ, Lookout, Reevaluate, Communication, Instructions, Control, Fight Fire Aggressively with Safety In Mind and the number seven matches the watchout seven and some corny ass humor (male energy) on six matching eight…and Instructions to uh-hum…ugh…and so any other helpful tips for the watch-outs and memorizing and learning them to heart- I would like to learn them now versus in March in a classroom…thanks…

                Rocksteady is one hell of an amazing person and I cannot tell you – ok I will – I never been so proud to know a person – he is solid and I hope he chimes in on this topic.

                As far as the hybrid stuff, Woodsman…the new word is coalition not hybrid..
                (better to manipulate the budget folks in administration into buying into that word)

                If done RIGHT – it can be done…

                I want you the world to meet Forest and Keegan Schaefer,

                Woodsman…I saw Forest when I was out hiking one day on the Weavers (I never met the man – never heard his name before that moment) – I kept seeing Norb too (mind you- neither men were there just something that happens to me)

                so I get home and I gently shared what I saw to Norb and guess what – Forest was a real fella not something I just saw and what I saw was real time shit…really..and I met Forest at the IAWF conference a few weeks back..- .15th International Wildland Fire Safety Summit and 5th Human Dimensions of Wildland Fire Conference and there is really solid hybrids out there but there is also some who should never even be a firefighter but they are because daddy wanted him to follow in his footsteps or some crock reason but they do not belong out there…no way!

                I met Tom Harbour who I did my post on awhile back
                Nice man.
                I told the man I really felt tempted to take down my post yet I have to keep bringing more of his email threads to the front as I reach the quiet months after I am an official firefighter this year…

                Bill wrote about him awhile back too:
                https://wildfiretoday.com/tag/tom-harbour/

                https://www.yarnellhillfirerevelations.com/single-post/2018/10/12/Fred-J-Schoeffler-the-USFS-Aerial-Firefighting-Use-and-Effectiveness-AFUE-Study-Was-Utilized-On-The-Yarnell-Hill-Fire-on-June-30-2013-and-recorded-Air-To-Ground-AG-radio-transmissions-that-exist-as-audio-and-written-transcripts-These-recordings-and-transcripts-3-ring-binder-are-being-withheld-and-denied-that-they-even-exist-I-just-came-across-a-few-key-public-records-basically-affirming-they-do-in-fact-exist-So-then-how-can-the-US-Forest-Service-ethically-and-legally-continue-to-deny-these-Public-Records-exist

                took a break from my project that will keep me up and into this day and probably the next with no sleep…staying awake until it is done…alot of uploading and typing…wish it was a post but just a Wildland Safety Project I am on a deadline…

            • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

              Reply to Woodsman post on January 1, 2019 at 8:54 pm

              >> Woodsman said…
              >>
              >> Yes but we don’t have public information to even
              >> get close to making a determination of whether
              >> an ignition (if it happened coordinated or not)
              >> could have impacted GM.

              Actually… we do. Always have.

              Running out of column space down here so see a longer ‘Reply’ up above left as a new parent-level comment…

              https://www.investigativemedia.com/please-begin-yarnell-hill-fire-chapter-xxvi-here/#comment-476068

          • Charlie says

            Where they were burning in the video had to be the last of their burn out procedure so that means whatever time it took to get there since that should have been the end point or very near it.

            • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

              …or it could have just been a very ‘specific’ structure-protection burnout only in that one location.

              Whoever was doing it might have just thought it was a last-ditch effort to try and protect those multiple structures there on the WALTRAUD property.

              Obviously that didn’t work.

              Less than an hour later all those structures were seen still burning down in one of Aaron Hulburd’s videos filmed at that same location.

      • Woodsman says

        And good point, wtktt. Just because Peeples FD shows pictures of them using drip torches on their own web page (and air tankers, wildland gear, fire shelters, etc etc) today doesn’t mean they had them in June of 2013. Maybe they did maybe they didn’t.

        It does show that the fire departments in Yavapai county AZ are not averse to the utilization of drip.torches in their wildfire operations today. In some parts of the country this simply doesn’t happen. Only the forestry agencies perform ignition during fire suppression. I expect this is prevalent in central Arizona because of the major interbreeding between wildland & municipal fire departments there.

      • Charlie says

        Well Joy has interviewed two different fire people that were in the Shrine Area including Prescott and Flagstaff firemen–so it could be that the Peeples Valley Fire Department did not do the burning because they were not qualified but it seems to me that people in that Yarnell incident were doing a lot of things they were not qualified at. I have no idea who they were but two things I am absolutely certain of is that there were men using drip torches in that video above the Shrine area and I am also certain that Chief lied through his teeth at Peeples Valley concerning his crew being in the area when he consented to an interview with Joy and I was present.

        If the wind shift could be so bad by 3:45 that day to cause the crews to evacuate the area then that burn out certainly would have had time to trap the GMHS crew. I detected the switch much earlier but it was a gentle breeze change at the top of the Weavers.

        This is why a Congressional Hearing would be in order. So damn much misinformation and lies to cover up what really happened. I do believe several people have solid evidence right not but are bidding their time to reveal it. It would bear down on whoever was running the show and knowing that the GMHS were headed down into the manzanita trap that had the burn out going –bad judgement somewhere –but that you can chalk up to the educated idiots that were running that show at Yarnell.

      • Charlie says

        WTKTT wrote wind Shifted at 15:45–military time converted to citizen time is 3:45, much earlier than 37 minutes later. Was this an official report or was there something signifying that it actually shifted later? Hell, I felt the wind shifts when we topped the Weavers before and later after I went back to get Joy off the two track–so somewhere around 1 PM or a bit later–Joy keeps record of the exact time–she even knew it took me 40 minutes to get back to her. She even knew the time she talked to Marsh–she had called her mom about that time and had that record on her phone. By then I knew it was get the hell off the Weavers–reason I cajoled Joy so much going down the other side–and in those temperatures I would have loved to just find a shady bush or tree to lie down under for a half hour. No, I knew damn sure that it was Drill Sergeant action–move out double time. I don’t think Joy understood the gravity of our predicament at the time but it came home to both of us when we arrived back at my bat mobile and were watching people getting the hell out of Dodge with flames and smoke down the street less than a quarter mile..

        There is always a calm before a storm, at least for sure in New Mexico where I grew up on the Desert and in those Burro Mountains. Back in the early 60’s on that desert west of Lordsburg, you would get a sudden calm, look to the west and see a huge cloud of dust that looked like the roller of a roller pin except it was vastly wide and reached an altitude of a mile or so. You knew you had about 15 minutes to tie the tent down good and gather up anything that would blow away. That had to be some years equaling the dust bowl era of the states like Oklahoma, Kansas, Texas Panhandle and such. It was such that you could barely see 50 ft. and standing in it you could literally turn your head to the side and feel sand falling out of your ear.

        Of course you would put a rag over your nose hoping to keep out some of the dirt and trying to avoid it by getting inside a car only made it worse. We accepted it and generally withing an hour or two a thunderstorm would follow, although not always with a shower.

        We never thought much of it since Dad was doing his mining/prospecting and Mom never complained. Maybe she knew it wouldn’t do any good. Dad would have said what the hell–he could cuss like a sailor–but that had to be a relief from how bad things could be from natural sources–well government as well since once he got built up everything was taken down with D-9 dozers–home, rock shop, partially built trading post and his huge collection of rocks and Indian matate’s now buried under that Gary Overpass to Nowhere, New Mexico.

        Don’t get me wrong–I am as much a proud American citizen as I am proud to have been of Irish decent. But it goes to show that people in high places are apt to make bad decisions just as we saw in Yarnell during the killing of the GMHS crew. You see, my Dad was a machine gunner in WW1 and even lied about his age so he could go fight for this country. When I got drafted he was against the Viet Nam war-I remember him saying Son you ought not go. Well I said look you served your country and so I will go. I was somewhat of a religious nut and registered as a consciencous objector. But I changed that idea once drafted and asked to be a machine gunner. Of course you do not tell the Army what you intend to do–you get the reply if we need any shit out of you we will squeeze your head. So I was relegated to the engineer core and given an MOS of Bulldozer operator because I had by this time been using a D-8 cable job on my agate claims near Hachita. I have never regretted my service time but I do regret seeing those young men dying and loosing limbs and other maiming that goes on screwing around with those sorry Terrorists in the Middle East countries. I rather think if we move out and let those bastards kill themselves our country would be less bothered by such things as we saw in the twin tower disaster. Personally I think Trump has the better idea of taking our men out of Syria and I would hope all those places like Afghanistan and Iraq.

        But for the wall and Mexico paying for it, that is phooey. Remember when Bush said Iraq will pay for the war with oil? That was a damn lie and the taxpayer ponied up and is still paying for those Middle East Wars. Are they protecting our Oil Supply–most out of Saudi Arabia? I don’t think so–we have plenty left here as well as solar and electric are in vogue to replace the polluting oil usage. Politics is so much scamming–well it is very interesting to read Investigative Media. At least you get a fresh breath of the truth from readers and posters here.

        I have no agenda to tell you I saw the drip torching near the Shrine. It happened but someone had and agenda to remove it from public view the same as the documented and sealed paper restricting that half section in the death canyon dated June 16, 2013. I do remember the date of the paper and at the time I was wondering why such a high restriction needing such a paper–was it to be a controlled burn-now called prescribed burn? It certainly needed one and don’t you just love the bullshit terms the FS comes up with. Defensible Space–crap –just say clean the fucking area out around your house if you want to keep it and especially if you don’t buy into insurance. I certainly do not like the bullshit jargon–tell it like it is. Clean the area say 25 ft or more around your home, trailer, tent or maybe sleeping bag. .

        • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

          Reply to Charlie post on January 3, 2019 at 11:14 am

          >> Charlie said…
          >>
          >> WTKTT wrote wind Shifted at 15:45–military time converted
          >> to citizen time is 3:45, much earlier than 37 minutes later.
          >> Was this an official report or was there something signifying
          >> that it actually shifted later?

          I never said the winds ‘shifted’ later than 3:45 PM.

          I was talking about the first reports of heavy wind GUSTS in the Shrine Youth Camp area… which is what would have caused the trees to the blowing in the wind the way you have repeatedly said you saw in the video.

          TFLD(t) Tyson Esquibel testified that the kinds of winds that you say you were seeing in the video only first ‘hit’ the Shrine Road Youth Camp area at exactly 4:22 PM. That’s what I meant by ’37 minutes after 3:45 PM’.

          There is no doubt that the winds began to ‘shift’ in the Peeples Valley and Yarnell area circa 3:45 PM. It became so obvious this was now happening that Air Attack Rory Collins was recorded talking to ‘Bravo 33’ pilot Thomas French about it at exactly 3:50 PM. Collins was making sure that French was AWARE the winds were now ‘shifting’ and that the fire was now headed straight for Yarnell.

          This is the exact transcript of that exchange between Air Attack Rory Collins and pilot Thomas French in lead planen ‘Bravo 33’ from the Air-To-Air channel video recording named 20130630_1628_EP…

          ——————————————————————————–
          +2:38 ( 1550.24 / 3:50.24 PM )
          (AA – Rory Collins): Bravo three three… Air Attack.

          +2:40 ( 1550.26 / 3:50.26 PM )
          (B33 – Thomas French): Go ahead Air Attack.

          +2:41 ( 1550.27 / 3:50.27 PM )
          (AA – Rory Collins): Okay… if ya haven’t noticed they got a heck of a wind shift here… ah… we’ve got a lot of fire headed over towards… ah… Yarnell. Ya wanna swing around and take a look at that we’re gonna have to check somethin’ there… either… shortly… I think. And also… uh… nine one one, I believe, is off… uh… about 20 minutes out.

          +2:58 ( 1550.44 / 3:50.44 PM )
          (B33 – Thomas French): Copy… we’re headed that way.

          +3:00 ( 1550.46 / 3:50.46 PM )
          (AA – Rory Collins): Ground contact out there… ahhhh… I was talkin’ to… Alpha

          +3:05 ( 1550.51 / 3:50.51 PM )
          (B33 – Thomas French): Ground contact Alpha.

          ———————————————————————————–

          So again… ( just to be clear )…

          The winds DID begin to ‘shift’ in the area circa 3:45 PM, and the fire began ‘rotating around’ and burning more towards Yarnell than Peeples Valley.

          But the wind GUSTS ( such as the ones that would have caused the trees to blow the way you saw them in the video ) came much later, when the thunderstorm OUTFLOW winds arrived in the area.

          And as for the earliest time those kinds of WIND GUSTS were first hitting the Shrine Road Youth Camp area ( where you say the video was filmed )… TFLD(t) Tyson Esquibel was so sure that time was 4:22 PM he wrote it down in his Unit Log.

          So I guess until more evidence comes up… we’ll have to trust Esquibel’s testimony and assume that the video you saw could not have been filmed any earlier than 4:22 PM.

          That would be only 17 minutes before Jesse Steed’s first botched MAYDAY call hit the radio at exactly 4:39 PM.

          SIDENOTE: If anyone has a better idea regarding how to nail down a possible TIME for this mysterious video… let’s hear it. I’m open to any path forward, at this point.

  12. Joy A Collura says

    Remember Matt-

    remember this

    as you name it a game…this YH Fire….

    you say “check” or whatever verbiage you want

    Those pieces may it be a pawn or the King end up in the same box at the end-

    please speak up.

    The current way is they say we the Forestry are the solution and ADOSH was there to find blame and that is not facts…ADOSH was never given the proper data and hit with touhy a lot. and so there is a lot that has not yet been discussed or revealed but in it this pony wall is not even a real focus.

    What I did note is Wtktt has access to vintage satellite imagery so in that – why not do a scan of the Corridor and post that for the world versus this pony wall. Why not post the orange gorilla of the spaces between Harper Canyon…Chung’s place…and show that area if you have access to vintage archival satellite images because last I knew they removed that access to the common folk…except a few lingering spots…Why not show the images from Saturday 10 to noon and Sunday 10 to 5pm.
    I do not ask for the source of where you get something just asking for the images to match up to what is shown…because you would be surprised just in that topic alone the redaction one can do in the highest levels so share to us if you will more satellite images from the year before – that year – the year after.

    I love the topic of 10 to noon Saturday the most…

    • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

      Reply to Joy A Collura post on December 22, 2018 at 10:22 am

      >> Joy A. Collura said…
      >>
      >> What I did note is Wtktt has access to vintage satellite imagery

      I do not have any kind of special “access to vintage satellite imagery”.

      The recently posted satellite images of that Shrine Road area taken at various past dates are simply screen shots from Google Earth, which allows you to ‘dial back’ on all available ( public ) satellite images for any location you are looking at in Google Earth.

      Google Earth is FREE.

      You can download it from this page ( scroll to bottom of page for Desktop version )…

      https://www.google.com/earth/versions/

      Once installed… it works just like Google Maps on the web, except now there is a ‘toolbar’ at the top of the satellite imagery which contains a button that lets you go BACKWARD in time and see all available satellite imagery for the location you are viewing.

    • Charlie says

      I happen to believe Joy has seen the Orange Gorilla and the Satellite images that were redacted yet certain individuals have access and copies of the same. The people that have the images for whatever reasons have requested anonymity and that we respect. These persons are former high ranking officers who had worked intelligence so they demand the respect and are bidding their time,.

      There is a time to laugh, a time to cry and then a time to reveal the truth of the Yarnell Cover up. So I respect their judgement–their expertise in these matters are respected.

      Just the idea that a man of the ilk of Dr. Ted Putnam has agreed with so many of the high ranking wild land fire fighting men who post on Investigative Media makes us amazed that such people as the movie makers and book writers did not use his wisdom on the matters of wild land fire death investigation of the 19 GMHS. But on the other hand we can understand when there is a cover up, you certainly do not want the experienced wild land fire fighter people that have bossed crews or seen the actions of such crews as GMHS giving their reviews of what caused the deaths and why that Yarnell effort to control a savage killer was a complete failure. Yes a failure in that it was allowed to kill 19 young lives and destroy a third of Yarnell and more of Glen Isla. Even the evacuation was near disaster since people were uninformed of the fire coming right at them or if they were informed it was at the very moment the fire was licking at their homes. Despite that, there were some that accepted awards as if they had actually saved some wandering elderly lady. The truth was given to Joy and I by the Smiths about the award and I think Joy had reported that. But if you are a fire fighter and someone offers an award, I suppose you might be a person that would accept it even if you did not deserve it. More awards might move you up the ladder so we can get a better view of the ass you are. I personally felt the only award given at Yarnell should have been the one saying the worst fire fighting effort ever–an example that ought to be put forward to all fire fighters of how not to do wild land fire fighting.

      Knowledge helps us to stay healthy and alive. One of the awards for heroism should be presented to Zack Ashoor, although sadly, post humorously. I met Zack when I was hiking from town back toward my camping area (at that time I was sleeping out on the ground in the Yarnell area–(Mary had kicked us out of the motel expecting rent to spike for people to reconstruct Yarnell). It was shortly after we were allowed to return to the Yarnell disaster. He was driving an old 4×4 Bronco and pulled up along the roadside where I was walking. He wanted to know how to get to the site where the men died. I told him that it was a restricted area and he would not be allowed to go there. He replied that he knew some of the wild land fire fighters and had cried when he had seen the news in a Phoenix cantina.

      Seeing the mans determination, I offered to hike him above the area where he could look down on the site. I got in his vehicle and we headed to where he could park his vehicle and straight away headed up the usual trail Joy and I had been hiking so many news people, fire fighters, writers and others interested to visit the area. We never charged for those hikes, but sometimes we would get a meal and now and again a good bottle of whiskey came my way.

      But Zack was a special case. I saw he had a breathing mechanism–for oxygen. He explained that he had asthma and that it necessary. He said he might not be able to keep a fast pace but I said he need not worry–I could do the turtle thing well enough. On the hike he said he was working on a thing for fire fighters–an oxygen source that would be so light they could have it on wild fires and it would be a life saver in certain situations. He said he had drank in bars with the GMHS and had befriended some of them–his interest to do the oxygen pack had no doubt led him there.

      Early on the retardant was fresh and we hiked through areas of orange and red colors, something you had to do to get to the two track. Once at the two track, I pointed out the location of where the men died.,. Zack said I am going down there to pay my respects. I said you might get arrested if any authority shows up, but he replied that he would stand before any judge if he did. He said nothing would stop him to go to the site. So we did drop down to the site–Joy and I had been there before and previous to the word being put out that it was restricted. She has a picture of me next to the flag pole near the location of their demise.

      But had I known and had Zack known the dangers of breathing the toxins that are emitted from retardant, perhaps we would not have hiked the area. You see, Zack was only 29 years of age, the same age Ted, my oldest son died. It was soon after that hike that Zack had called Joy and I with thanks and greetings. But only a few weeks after that call Zack deceased at the young age of 29. Saddly, Zack had joined the ranks of his friends in the GMHS crew He had been deprived of completing his goal to produce that oxygen device he had dreamed of producing to help save the fire fighter in his dangerous oxygen deprived environment. I have since felt that Zack was a casualty of the Yarnell incident with his already compromised lungs. The gases, especially the ammonia released from fire retardant is a lung killer. It kills fish quickly, but with humans it is a slow killer unless you are already compromised as would the elderly and people with lung problems such as Zack was suffering. To add to the problem, ammonium nitrates and phophates poured on embers creates another chemical and gas called cyanide. We have no idea what 5-15% of chemicals added to this chemical concoction dropped from airplanes would be. That part of the soup is trade secret only given out to a qualified medical person and he must keep his mouth shut as to the chemicals added else suffer a fine and possible jail time for revealing the trade secret. But with some study, those intelligent enough to give this a bit of study will certainly avoid the orange and red chemical soup drops’

      So if a Yarnell incident award should be presented, it would be to Zack for his brave hike to respect the friends he was so incessantly working to help. Another unsung hero that should be remembered for his efforts.

      • Charlie says

        Usually I do not mention typos because most of you are intelligent enough to decipher meanings, correct the King’s English and understand the use of proper punctuation, participles, etc. Many of those have bat hides of various labels, but sometimes it might be difficult to get the sentence going properly despite your improved college abilities. I use the spelling correction where possible–but when on a phone doing verbal input it sometimes becomes frustrating–especially when the damn thing can’t understand my English. Actually if I had my druthers, I would speak and write Irish instead of the King’s English. As you know I am not a fan of the Queen Bee of England and could care less who the Prince marries albeit we do know the Mayflower brought in the English as founders of this country. We are all people and sometimes forget our neighbors and their actual human relationship to us.

        Be kind to your neighbor and treat him well–that is if you want to be respected and treated well in return. Of course especially in this day and age that does not always hold true and certain societies have demonized other societies–well shown among Jews and Arabs and both look down on infidels (anyone not believing as they do). This can go for Christian and other religions as well. For instance I once belonged to a Saturday going Chruch of God that was under the dictatorship of Herbert W. Armstrong. The principles are right in most cases but he believe all but 144,000 were doomed to Hell (whatever that entails–dead forever no resurrection) so that only so many elite would make it to heaven. As a young man I thought I wanted to be among those 144,000 that the Bible speaks of –so I attended Ambassador College, his idea of a perfect College with mansion and all in Pasadena, California. In those days (early 60’s) the smog was so intense you sometimes would choke up–God forgot to have him locate in a decent area free of pollution. Be it as it was this young country boy was use to wide open spaces and clean air. I lasted a semester and that was that.

        But over time, education and life in general gave me a broader view of life. Young fellows are usually more easily controlled and fooled by the religious zealots and hoaxers but some do escape the nonsense and see the world more as it really is.
        I talk of Irish Gods, some like the Norse Gods (maybe Gary Olson) and some fall nicely into Christianity, Judaism and God forbid the Islam sects that want to kill all they consider Infidels.

        Evil doers can be found in all religions–perhaps degrees of it in all of us except most of us can avoid it, Still there is plenty temptation when you get up the ladder where the big bucks abound. What is amazing with the human mind is the ability it has to justify anything from grand theft to murder. Yet there are some individuals with the strictest moral concerns that they will go out of their way to expose these deluded individuals. It is among the people who communicate here on this that deserve that commendation. They are the watchers–ever wanting to expose the wrong doing that has seemed to permeate much of our society from the political arena to our public servant offices and especially among the industrial giants that provide products and services. Here is a small list of the watchers–John Daugherty, Joy Collura, Wants to Know the Truth, Gary Olson, Woodsman, Norb from Lake Tahoe, Fred Shoeffler, Mr. Honda, Dr. Ted Putnam, and just about all I have read on this site with concerns to the loss of life in the fire fighting profession and how to improve the safety and progress therein. These are by no means in order of importance since every person involved here is part of the whole and just as important in helping resolve the issues of safety, health, environmental pollution and the general well being and proper operation of wild land fire fighting as well as general issues related to public health and safety. JD works a general plan–well worth his awards. Joy I have know personally and over the years know of her good character and concerted efforts to expose the truth about the Yarnell debacle. We were there, we saw it, and you expert

        Money has corrupted and big business has entered into the fire fighting business including the retardant business. Undoubtedly there are some in the upper echelons that are bought and paid for. I saw it in Uranium mining where workers lives and health were blatantly compromised and knew that certain mine inspectors were being wined and dined and under table handed to keep the high grade Uranium flowing. These were culprits such as Standard Oil of Ohio, Kerr McGhee, Union Carbide and last but certainly not least United Nuclear. I had worked for all those companies as an underground Uranium miner–exception was Union Carbide where I worked at Tempaiute (Rachael, Nevada) in their tungsten mine. So I saw first hand the big business willingness to skirt health and safety issues concerning workers. Anything that slowed production cut into profits. Deaths and Maiming were down played and if they made news, it would be on back pages. A miner was killed? What else is news? Gary Olson lost his father because he had fallen down a 1200 ft shaft that I worked in–Sec. 30 out of Grants, New Mexico. That was a Uranium mine owned by Kerr McGhee and you can bet his dad died because someone had him doing a dangerous job in the wrong manner. No one falls down a shaft if proper safety measures are taken–there is a way to tie yourself off so you can hang off the side in a harness if you are working the sides of a shaft–but we do not have the particulars and if you do you can bet they were written up in such a way it was his fault

        I do know the sensation of falling off in a shaft–the one I fell into was the Johnny Bull mine west of Lordsburg. It was an 80 foot shaft that had previously killed a 7 year old girl previously who with her friend was near the shaft and slipped off into it. The ground around it was loose but there was a beautiful chrysocolla vein near the surface. (chrysocolla is similar in composition and looks like turquoise but much harder) There was a sill near the vein where you could get near enough to work out a few pieces without any safety measures. Cora Simonton had the mine so allowed my Dad and I to work in it. Years Later after my Dad passed, I went there alone and decided to work some of the gemstone loose from that vein. Fortunately I had a rope along so I tied myself off to a mesquite bush near the shaft. The area that was jutted off into the shaft and where I could stand gave way enough I slipped off into the shaft. There was something like ten foot of slack before I hit the end of the rope tied about my waist. There wasn’t time to get excited so for some reason I felt good swinging back and forth over that 80 foot shaft. The jutted part had kept me from hitting the side of the shaft but I realized I has barely missed pounding my head against the side as I swung. In those days I had no problem climbing back out but it must have hit me how fortunate I was not to have fallen to my death as that little girl had.

        Cora Simington was caring for the girls but she was elderly–not a person at her age you would want looking after your child around several mine shafts in the area–another disaster that was really not an accident but a case of a careless watcher.
        .
        Now the typo-post humus–no humor in the death of Zack.

        When will the movies do a documentary–accompany JD and his–but make a movie for all the nation and especially fire and first responders to view? Soon I hope while the iron is hot.

  13. Joy A. Collura says

    I think in this all the point I am trying to get across to Sonny

    we all saw a wall in the video with 2 FFs with drip torches not a structure right past the Shrine – that wall – not structure so there was no structure in the video but the wall matched to video and that does not mean structure was not there just not in the video just the pony wall was visible in video.

    I have asked the locals and none remember a structure there on June 30 2013 so I went direct and asked the owner and no reply yet

    I am not giving up until clarification is giving to this specific topic.

    • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

      Reply to Joy A. Collura post on December 22, 2018 at 9:52 am

      >> Joy A. Collura said…
      >>
      >> there was no structure in the video but the wall matched to video
      >> and that does not mean structure was not there just not in the video
      >> just the pony wall was visible in video.

      I suppose that is perfectly possible.

      Depending on the location of the camera person, and the camera ‘angle’ used in that original ‘burnout’ video… it’s possible that one of the walls/foundations on that WALTRAUD property appeared in the video, but the multiple structures that were there did not.

      >> Joy A. Collura said…
      >>
      >> I have asked the locals and none remember a structure there on
      >> June 30 2013 so I went direct and asked the owner and no reply yet

      There WERE multiple structures ( and a propane tank ) there on June 30, 2013.

      They are seen burning down at that exact location ( but not fully collapsed yet ) in THREE of the Aaron Hulburd videos he shot on June 30, 2013 between 5:29 PM and 5:34 PM

      >> Joy A. Collura said…
      >>
      >> I am not giving up until clarification is giving to this specific topic.

      At least we are ‘clarified’ ( and confirmed ) now on the EXACT LOCATION as seen in this original ‘burnout’ video, right?

      It was filmed right there by that WALTRAUD property, 100 yards west of where the pavement of Shrine Road ends.

  14. Joy A Collura says

    I see there is new comments as far as numbers (not yet looked at) but I need to focus time elsewhere so best thing I did was talk direct to the people in person and that area was on fire 4:10 to 4:30pm June 30 2013 and this is exact words how it was explained from five locals I met with yesterday and will meet more this week as I came home to do a few things but will get to this before I head out to next training and conference:

    they said:

    I can see the fire in the Corridor/Valley/Kenny’s when I was up on the Grotto Lookout. after 4pm

    I was on the roof of the trailer of Kenny Headricks on Saturday and they said BLM would not allow anyone out there (Kenny lives by Sesame area)

    Both our healths are heavily affected after the YH Fire. I have photos. I will try and send them to you. from that weekend (Neighbors to Jourdan Waltraud)

    There was no mop up in our area. They said we had to evacuate in a few hours (345pm) and one half hour later they said GO GO GO and all the equipment was removed off the Grotto and Shrine from Fire Industry Folks. (They got their prescriptions all together. They hit the corner and FFs said go to Prescott and they said no they will go to Surprise) . .( they said Mark Danielson left same time as them and in the 21 newly released Forestry videos there is Mark’s white truck leaving so what time was that?) (They spoke about the fire behavior over by Harper Canyon and as well over by Kenny Headricks- the dirt path that goes from Shrine to Sesame fire behavior so that is my SESAME TO SHRINE CORRIDOR or locals call it the dirt path or “valley”

    Jim and I took photos of all the fire behavior and retardant drops. The day we left I took alot of photos. I will look for you Joy.

    I always thought they were not totally equipped.

    there was a Flagstaff fire crew up at the lookout at the Grotto Lookout June 30 2013 410pm and this man said the leader of this crew bought his canoe for a FF discount from $300 to $200 the following Saturday and he said they were “deployed” in that area that June 30 2013 was what he was told…yes he used the word deployed he said…

    Now since I am short on time I did fact check and confirm there was no mop up or later burn…When I finally get all these owners accounts on my posts then it will make sense but like Sonny said there is above ground documentation that George Vargas stated they had but they told Mr. Schoeffler it does not exist…Once you begin to hear the YCSO radio nets and the 911 calls of who’s place was burning and when….just give me time because I am beyond drained….all I have done is fire stuff and I am only working on Mrs Robinson stuff this week then on to next conference…so I can only crack one thing at a time…then I have firefighting training coming before you know it and I have to remember 16 of the 18 watchout situations still…

    My brain needs a R and R

    so to answer you all—I am going to need WTKTT to take my upcoming emails and the videos and update you all on the wall topic but I do not have time to do that…ok…sorry

    • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

      Reply to Joy A Collura post on December 21, 2018 at 3:01 pm

      >> Joy A. Collura said…
      >>
      >> I am going to need WTKTT to take my upcoming emails and
      >> the videos and update you all on the wall topic.

      Two days ago, on December 20, 2018, you went out to the location under discussion ( at about 100 yards west of where the Shrine Road ends )… and you shot the following video…

      https://youtu.be/zn9Jpi4Lxyw

      Everything in your new video matches the still photos you took previously at that same location on June 11, 2015.

      And everything in your new video also matches the photos and satellite imagery contained in the following ‘slideshow’…

      https://youtu.be/ul0Brj0SK1k

    • Charlie says

      Thanks Joy–You have uncovered so many testimonies and facts–You deserve credit and awards for your incessant search and revelations of the facts about the Yarnell Debacle –Wild Land Fire Failure of the Century.

      I am privileged to have been along with you most of that journey–my contribution is minuscule next to yours. However I remain supporter of your efforts to get at the truth and should a FS award be given then it should be to you for never backing down on what you find to be the facts.

  15. Joy A Collura says

    World,

    Until further data is shown please remember the old verbiage fact check

    I do believe my time in this as an eyewitness will carry weight at the finish line.

    REMINDER- I never am doing a book or a movie.

    Remember WTKTT is basing comment on the public information and there is way too much information not public – for example – who was out there in that area that belonged to the Feds? Can you name them here for me. Who also was with Abel out of Northern Arizona where Abel was? Who is this lookout assigned that I have documented out in the Shrine.area? There is more but if I put the facts – they will cover it up – I now that for sure. Yet once some areas are all set in line – I believe soon I will not be the one telling this but the first hand folks will be doing just that.

    Have you ever noticed when any type of key points make it to IM then Gary or Wttkt fill the pages with long drawn out comments (almost seems like they had the post saved ready for times like such) so the key points are lost in the weeds

    Last night I dined with one of the people in the significant area where the key players were…I guarantee there is way too much being withheld. I know because I am in that same boat listening to so many that were there. After listening to him for several hours I have come to the conclusion there will soon be some revelations.

    Today is procedure day for so many so God Bless…and Sonny I hope they get all the cancer this time because in my time in person knowing you they took enough out that my nick name for you “skeleton” may not be far off after all the skin removals I have eye-witnessed. I hope you all have a safe Holiday week…Happy New Year…I am doing a project for Mikel so not able to come here for a bit but wanted to assure you I did make the appointed time to reach the direct people involved to have them first hand answer the blog inquiries.

    I am going to spend 15 minutes here after I post this to look at map since on a desktop to see if we have the same wall…

    brb

    • Joy A Collura says

      I cannot get to street view.

      tried Sonny

      I would have to re-pick this up in a few weeks

      I am just too loaded up each day with activities that in reality I am awaiting my own quiet time away from any type of worldly activities

      the wall I thought we emailed Gary and Wtktt the wall a long time ago when we took the walk that time.

      Sorry I am unable to remove myself from a serious project.

      Remind me again soon Sonny…mid to late January…k

      • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

        Reply to Joy A Collura post on December 19, 2018 at 9:33 am

        >> Joy A. Collura said…
        >>
        >> the wall I thought we emailed Gary and Wtktt the wall a
        >> long time ago when we took the walk that time.

        Are these the ‘wall’ photos you are talking about?…

        https://youtu.be/ul0Brj0SK1k

        That link is a SLIDESHOW containing 9 photographs.

        The first THREE photos are pictures you took of a ‘rock wall’, somewhere on Shrine Road. There was no GPS information embedded in the photos so still not sure exactly where they were taken.

        Are these actually photos of the ‘rock wall’ that has been under discussion at 100 yards west on Shrine Road from the point where the pavement turns to dirt?

        The other SIX photographs are all SATELLITE images, taken on various dates, of that exact spot on Shrine Road 100 yards west of where the pavement turns to dirt.

        They clearly show the ‘structures’ that were there at that parcel at that 100-yard distance point, and then the bare walls/foundations that were left after the structures burned down circa 5:30 PM on June 30, 2013.

        In each of the satellite photos, a RED BALLOON marks that exact 100-yard point.

        Photos in this ‘slideshow’…

        1. Rock wall/foundation. Photo taken 6/11/2015.
        2. Rock wall/foundation. Photo taken 6/11/2015.
        3. Rock wall/foundation. Photo taken 6/11/2015.

        4. Satellite image dated 04/01/2009
        5. Satellite image dated 09/09/2010
        6. Satellite image dated 05/14/2011 – Clearl shows two blue-roof structures.
        7. Satellite image dated 01/04/2014 – Post fire. Clearly shows foundations/walls.
        8. Satellite image dated 11/06/2015 – Also clearly shows foundations/walls.
        9. Satellite image dated 06/11/2017 – Ditto.

      • Charlie says

        the wall is an easy hike from the Shrine or even can drive right up to it before the fence and locked gate as the road is closed just beyond that. So perhaps someone visiting the Shrine will get a photo and post it.

        Well they did dig a couple holes in my head and one has a bunch of stitches –fortunately that Doctor said they got the one on the eye lid since she said that one could have gone into the eye. There are three more they did not take out because of the time limits to these two. I was there from 9:30 until 2 and they had to cut again on both since they did not get all the cancer on the first cut–but she said I was clear after they cut deeper and wider on both. I appreciate the Mohs Surgery since before they would send me home then two or three weeks later send a notice that you had to go back–they did not get all the cancer. That was after you pretty well had healed up–but now they can determine in half an hour or so whether they need to cut out more–and they usually do –much better since I know at least those two are gone. I got a face lift but only on the right side–that one she said yeah you will have that side pull the wrinkles out. Anything might improve my looks right now so I am not worried or vain about it.
        I deserve all this in a way–being a Uranium miner is now against my grain–back then I thought it was a good thing. But after looking at Chernobyl, Japan and all the pollution rained down on the Mormons and others in the Cedar City Area I realize it is akin to the way the retardant dumps are being made without the truth being known. Considering that neither of my sisters nor my brother have had cancers–none of them mined uranium–then you can see what it does. I have some lung issues now–but that has come on after our many hikes through the retardant. We did not know what we were doing to ourselves then–since then after we noticed how many people at Yarnell were dying and suffering lung issues, I started to study on what the retardant really is and what it will do to health. It is not hard to connect the retardant with deaths and lung, heart and cancer issues after the research. Yarnell and people there were truly guinea pigs but you can bet the FS honchos have turned a blind eye to the problem just as the Uranium Bosses did with worker contamination. Trouble is in both cases most of the bosses had and have in the case of retardant that it is harmless to human health. They do not want to look like the monkeys they are if the truth comes out–same with the deaths of the 19. Your work Joy will reveal a bunch of monkeys as far as the cover up at Yarnell. Do you want to do that–it can make apes out of monkeys.

        So in those days we did not know better but knowledge sets you free of the ignorance.

        I was just listening how this country has the greatest number of prisoners of any country–much of it related to dope–people were doing and still do long –even life sentences put out on such things as marijuana possession–the law is the law. But sometimes the law is made by monkeys as well–there is something wrong when people are being locked when treatment is a better option. Edgar Allen Poe would be doing hard time if he lived in this era–as would many people that used opium during those times.

        If you drive across Arizona there is some mighty long open spaces–but I thought Dolan Springs might be a good area to cordon off since there are already so many dopers in that area. (Texas is another wide open country for this as well). There dope and dopers could do their thing and if they got too sick, treatment would be available. You see the dope is cheap if you bring it in by the truck load–and this would stop all the drug king pins in their tracks, crime would be greatly reduced and it would be a cheap alternative to locking people up. Dopers would love it because they could go to these drug areas and do their thing without having to rob, steal and harm others to get their medicine. Include the prescription dope as well –but big Pharma would chime in on that I am certain.

        This is the modern world and dope is not going away–quit being the self righteous people we are–dopers are addicted and need that high much like an alcoholic need his booze. So your kid would be safe for the most part since all the dopers would be in doperville.

        I have never connected much with doper types–most non dopers do not get their life style–Why you need these doper camps. But that is my opinion–like it or not–Truchain.mp would rather use the Jack Boot Approach–He thinks everyone is weak if they are not filthy rich–very little compassion for those on the lower end of the food

        • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

          Reply to Charlie post on December 20, 2018 at 1:05 am

          >> Charlie said…
          >>
          >> the wall is an easy hike from the Shrine or even can drive
          >> right up to it before the fence and locked gate as the road
          >> is closed just beyond that. So perhaps someone visiting
          >> the Shrine will get a photo and post it.

          Sounds like you had a busy ( but good ) day and they knew what they were doing.

          Did you get a chance to look at those first THREE photos in that video ‘slideshow’ link posted above?

          Here is the link again…

          https://youtu.be/ul0Brj0SK1k

          Are those photos of the ‘rock wall/foundation’ you saw in the ‘burnout’ video?

          • Charlie says

            Not at all WTKTT. This is a rock wall but what I saw in the video is barely a foot or so in height and was a part of a foundation. We need a photo of the actual thing we saw. I never took one but someone will eventually get one and post it. Nothing like that photo I looked at on the site you posted.

            • Charlie says

              I am talking about the one photo that I can get with a tall wall–I could not see the others with my set up but one arrow looks about right for where the wall might be. If I can get up there I will get a photo of exactly what was in the video–the wall you showed in the first photo was not in that video clip.

      • Charlie says

        I think that foundation would be hard to see by satellite view–one hike we did it was covered with foliage to a good degree.

        I am absolute on the burn out that was being done in that area. What I wonder was how long would it take to drip torch for two miles. Walking is about three mph so a mile in 20 minutes walking –40 minutes for two miles–but doing a drip torch job? I thought maybe an hour to hour and a half might be a reasonable estimate but I have no experience in that area. So a good estimate would come from someone that knows that work and preferably some one that has actually drip torched areas. Woodsman, Norb, Gary, and so forth all would be reasonable sources for that information–maybe they would post and let us know.

        • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

          Reply to Charlie post on December 20, 2018 at 11:12 am

          >> Charlie said…
          >>
          >> I think that foundation would be hard to see by satellite

          Actually… it’s not.

          Here is that link ( again ) to the 9-photo ‘slideshow’ mentioned above…

          https://youtu.be/ul0Brj0SK1k

          Photo number 7 is a satellite image taken January 4, 2014, just several months after the Yarnell fire.

          It CLEARLY shows the ‘foundations’ and ‘walls’ that were there on that
          parcel at 100 yards west of where the pavement of Shrine Road turns to dirt.

          Also ( asking again )… are the FIRST THREE photos in that ‘slideshow’ pictures
          of the same rock wall/foundation you saw in the ‘burnout’ video?

          • Charlie says

            Thanks Rocksteady–I had not known that you could do a fast walk or even a slow jog–wow that says they could have done a two mile stretch in anywhere from about 40 minutes to less than thirty.

            With Joy attending so much schooling on wild fires I have begun to realize much of the technical side necessary in doing things like the burn out at the Shrine. I wonder would they use only drip torches or would they also cast things like flares as they torched? What about the wind–that video had the trees whipping so you knew it was up there above 20 mph. What would wind like that have to do with a burn out. Would it be more difficult to get it going or would it instead help the process?

            After I see how much education goes into the fire fighting profession, I wonder how come I had the good sense to get into a non-vegetative area and escape a fire I knew that was for sure going to change direction–I felt that change when I topped the Weavers–one of the good reasons to go back and drag Joy out of the area. We definitely had very little time span to escape even from the two track since it came up that canyon I believe even faster than 11 mph as the experts reported.

            Looking back I think what educated me was watching that fire eat its way toward Peeples Valley when I had Joy time it going up about a half mile to a mile of manzanita on a sloping hillside. Not much wind at all in that direction, but 14 minutes was much faster than you could get yourself through the tangled manzanita that it was eating. It took us about an hour a mile in that tangled mess to get through so anyone caught in there was going to go down. Well you can imagine several deer and javalina and other small animals succumbed to the fire. Joy has many photos of animals seriously burned that did escape–and remember the incident of a local illegally shooting a burned Javelina because he felt it was suffering too much. I don’t know if he made steaks later, but he should have.

            On the other hand I am glad someone did not put me out of my misery when I was shot though the back with three broken ribs, a punctured lung and a shattered clavicle. Instead I woke up several days later heavily sedated and here today –maybe the shooting cleared some of that retardant out of my lung–I seem to breath better than before the shooting. I have not recovered all of the use of my right arm yet but was able to chain saw myself some wood and even split it with an 8 pound mall, although carefully.

            At one time I was an avid hunter–survival involved, but I never saw the joy in killing animals or the need for trophies. I still rabbit hunt for the dogs but nothing is wasted and you know those dogs would kill over their piece of rabbit. They change from nice guys to ferocious animals when it comes to another dog messing with their share. So I think I will go out today and do a small hunt–the mama dog I was given birth to 8 pups and she doesn’t like regular dog food –even the expensive kind. What the hell do they put in it that dogs avoid it so, except for the last resort to keep alive? I do make it more palatable for them by mixing in a can of Beef. bacon, and cheese flavor Pedigree dog food with the dry. If they don’t like it, I doubt I would.

      • Charlie says

        Joy is excellent on those google maps so likely can walk right to the spot with the map. My download and upload rate is very slow since using my phone as a hot spot. They give you a very slow rate and even to get the map downloaded takes several minutes here.

      • Charlie says

        About the post describing the 6 hour hike to where we met Marsh–we were not at the fire edge at that point–it was about another 30 minutes to get to that point. And it might have been more like 3 miles as the crow flies from the point we started hiking at Glen Isla. Still that three miles if it were along a highway would amount to only an hour. I might add the slowest part of the journey was in the area the men deployed and across that bowl from Helms on up to where we met Marsh.

        It was no wonder Willis said regular people would not be able to transverse the canyon where GMHS were caught and died. Willis did not count us as regular people since we did cross that area, albeit with difficulty — but no more difficult than it would be for GMHS loaded down with equipment, packs and hot suits. So they were caught in a no win situation and had they done the doce fire then they would have known how difficult it is to get through tangled up manzanita, catclaw, and cactus. I do not see any advantage –even a disadvantage to have chain saws since it would take longer to cut through than work your way through the brush. The saws and turkey roasting blankets caused them a false sense of security so they cut out and packed more fuel about themselves–a greater disaster. But either way they were gonners–yet had they used their heads they would have positioned themselves close to the boulder field–and even where they were only 70 yards to a safe escape zone in the boulders. I do estimate from where they were they would have escaped to the boulders had they not taken time to cut out about themselves.

        Marsh or someone said nothing until the fire was upon them, yet they certainly had to see it coming from where they were since the fire was below them and to the NE unless there was also a burn coming from the Shrine area. That is only known if the facts come out about that burn and its timing–as Gary said doubtful–but then we have not information as to the time. One thing about wild fires and 45 mph winds–they do not move like hikers–they move like a crow and even skip ahead in winds like that–straight line, fast and skipping.

        We do see the faulty way this fire and the fire deaths were investigated. Joy and I were very experienced mountain hikers and in shape to do those type hikes. So the time we took light loaded as we were, you know must have at least equaled the time it would have taken for those men to do it loaded with equipment as they were. Those Pulaski’s won’t get you through the brush and they were going in the hottest part of the day–around 4 in Arizona is a burner. We went through in the cooler hours, although at 9:30 it was already up near 100F.

        If any kind of god was having anything to do with this incident it would be seeing if the GMHS wanted to play Russian Roulette–which they did and lost. I certainly believe they knew it–or at least Marsh and Steed would have known because they lived among the Manzanita–Prescott is surrounded by miles and miles of the stuff and it was the main substance of the Doce fire they had earlier fought.

        I did get no answer on how a Juniper tree could live thousands of years by itself and without being saved by any human group–well maybe the Indians hung around it and kept saving it before the white man came along. They had to catch hundreds of wild fires over those thousands of years. I am more inclined to think that was another promotional feat–kind of like the award giving for Ben Palm saving Yarnell–that never happened but they made it look that way, but even worse was the award giving after the Yarnell Fire that killed the GMHS crew. People go at all lengths to make themselves look good before the public. But the truth would have been a much better antidote to bad wild fire management. These opinions are my own and may not reflect the opinions of the FS, wild land fire fighter crews involved, and the general public that I opine has been rather craftily fooled.

      • Charlie says

        Happy New Year to Joy and the rest of the fire fighting community. I am looking forward to midnight and the beginning of 2019. Perhaps the 20 crew and the 19 is an omen that the Yarnell mystery will finally come to fruition if numerology means anything. One of our greatest geniuses, Tesla always thought it did and would not live in any address that was not a multiple of 3. He liked to walk three times around his building before entering. Some say carry the number 8 in your wallet and it will increase. Well there were 12 apostles, and generally we have 12 jurors for judging offenses. Tesla by the way was the actual inventor of radio but Marconi took credit even after using Tesla patents. Tesla lost financing for his system to create free electrical power for everyone. Financiers expect dollars from their investments–not too many that want to give away bundles of money–the Bill Gates types that are overloaded with cash and wish to find ways to benefit those in need and society in general. If you watch American Greed on TV you see that the Greedy play upon the greedy and elderly as well. There are plenty hucksters that use religion and religious people as their source of booty–usually through pyramid schemes they say God is going to benefit the contributor with great blessings. Old Jesus and his apostles were quite different–Paul if you read his accounts left a wealthy situation to become more or less a homeless type–suffered all sorts of beatings and deprivations. His story and the other apostles were quite different from the diamond studded preachers that collect big money from the parishioners. Many of those contributors donate hoping they will get a good shot at “heaven” and live the life of poverty while their preachers live it up with “Gods” blessings. For the new year I hope you are not fooled by them–support your Priest who has taken a vow of poverty–he is closer to God than all the god damned lying preachers that are found left on the plane alone when the ressurection occurs–if and when it does. I want some old Irish God or Goddes flying the plane when I am on it–he/she will make sure the thing is structurally sound and avoid those bumpy rides that people use puke bags on. Also make sure the plane has plenty of fuel–too many crashes where the plane is low fuel to save money or because some idiot forgot to fuel the thin. So don’t be fooled by what is said–instead investigate as we have seen done on the Yarnell disaster.

        By the way, my son Mark the RN did purchase a Tesla–he seems to be tickled pink with that black sleek dynamo. It was nothing to see that speedometer at 118 mph and there was more to go if I had not told him to get back down to 75–the limit on I-10. It was easy to get there and smooth as well. We do need an autobahn to go along with these new cars–some of these electric Tesla’s off the line will challenge any hemi out there and are beating up the hottest dragsters. They do it quietly as well–no noise pollution there. I had always known of electric power vehicles from the motors we used underground. Mortor is the term for the small train engines used to transport men and ore and muck. Not all mines used them–for instance United Nuclear had drifts that were 15 foot to the back (ceiling). In there they used diesel powered equipment–Three wheeled Young Buggies–single wheel in the back so you turned left to go right. First time I drove one of those things was in a Zinc mine at Mt. Hope, Nevada. I took out a string of timbers with that beast–I never did get good at one of those things, but then a miner did not usually drive one of those anyway. We had a jack leg (jack hammer attached to an air leg). Believe me you could not drill up without the air leg and in the Church Rock United Nuclear Mine you had to climb a ladder with that machine to get your back holes in. The back holes are the top drill holes. Something few knew was that Union Carbide also had a huge screw machine that men would operate where it was something like you see in the movies boring holes though the sandstone. Generally miners could outdo footage that thing did because it was broke down so often. I am certain the miners running it were breathing plenty of diesel smoke. Underground they had scrubbers to clean the smoke but I never saw them working right–you got to breathe the diesel smoke whether you liked it or not. These days I can not drive behind anything putting out diesel smoke–I absolutely have to pass or pull over since I get the sensation I am suffocating and the smell is atrocious.

        Anyhow I am certain some of the wild land fire fighters will want to try underground mining and I thought it nice to give you a little about it. I do consider myself fairly expert even in the old type mining. My Dad never knew about jack legs and all his work was by hand steeling. There he used an 8 pound single jack hammer to drive his drill steel through hard rock. A little douse of water once the hole was started and a muck stick to pull out the mud. He had a good rhythm–maybe from his banjo picking abilities–so that you could hear that steel sing for a mile down the canyon. It was strike, turn and so forth until the mud was thick enough to remove. His final steel was a four footer so rounds were four foot. While the dust and powder smoke were settling after a blast we were cooking and eating, then he took time to sharpen and temper the steel on a hand forge. Slow according to standards using a Jack Leg but he was a patient man and I saw some very deep shafts and drifts he had developed.

        So anyway, Ted Gilligan, my son wanted to become a miner and asked me to train him. His mom got wind of it and came down hard on me saying that she did not want her son doing that dirty dangerous type work. Well you know how a woman can throw a chink in someone’s plans–and she did. So Ted got together ten grand and went to diving school near Seattle. He had dived in the Navy so he must have taken a liking to it. He learned underwater welding–he already was a certified welder. But at first he was diving 100-150 foot for clams or something of the order. He finally landed the underwater welding job on one of the Houston off Shore Oil rigs. He had said the clam people were risking his life and health by bringing him up too quick–You can get the bends if certain procedures are not met to allow the accumulated nitrogen to dissipate over intervals. Ted was no dummy and knew what procedures should be done but those fishermen were in a hurry to make bucks and took those risks with their divers that should not have been taken. I was past 45 at the time but had thought to do that work myself until I learned I was above the age they would hire a diver. But you see, it wound up being a careless boss that killed Ted. Ted got wound up in a huge boat winch because the shut off valve was faulty–something the bosses knew but failed to replace. A young man will go ahead and work in a dangerous situation and the bosses did not want to take the time to replace that valve. It tore his arm loose from his body and all the nerves were disconnected so the arm atrophied–had no feeling there and had to learn to use his left to do everything–something I was doing for two months–still to some degree. I know the feeling and pain from this shattered clavicle and trying to use the right arm. Fortunately in my case the arm is coming back–I am getting some decent motion now–even able to hold up a chain saw.

        If you like danger where plenty of money is paid and the assholes that do not want to do the work but be honchos–then underwater welding and deep sea diving would be the card. I might have chosen it over mining but mining was in my blood. I know Ted’s income was above $100,000 for a 9 month stint as a beginner. Nowadays it would be much more and miners at the Gold Mine near Oatman, AZ were making about 50,000 per year some ten years ago.

        Ted never learned to swim worth a damn but knew how to float from the Naval training. He said you don’t need to swim as a diver–you only need to know how to sink.

        Well it does little good to swim among the sharks unless you are one. So try to remain in good straits for the new year–my resolution–stay alive for another year and if that happens, repeat the resolution for the next year.

        Let this be a special New Year and wild fire fighting to all–Blessing from the Irish Gods and Goddesses and your own gods, Gods, Jesus, Brahma, Confucius, Buddha or whatever entity fits your mind and budget.

    • Gary Olson says

      Joy wrote, “Have you ever noticed when any type of key points make it to IM then Gary or Wttkt fill the pages with long drawn out comments (almost seems like they had the post saved ready for times like such) so the key points are lost in the weeds”

      Your words cut like a 🔪 and sting like a 🐝

      And no, I have never noticed that because I don’t save anything to post except for those things that suit my own purposes, to wit; I get distracted and I sometimes delay in posting comments simply because I haven’t finished them, and then when I go to finish them, I can’t remember the point I was originally trying to make. And as a matter of fact, I still sitting on some comments right now, but I can’t remember where I filed them, in addition to my Last Chapter.

      But please keep in mind, that my words are like verbal 💎 that I share with you because I truly love and respect you so much…little Miss Collura! Wait….is that title patronizing, demeaning, insulting and misogynistic? I certainly hope so because that is the way I intended it.

      Meanwhile, back at the ranch, I just stopped by to wish everyone who either participates or reads this IM blog a very Merry Christmas 🎄🎁 and a Happy New Year 🥳

      • Joy Collura says

        You never patronize me

        I was the one being facetious

        My apologies to you both

        Merry Christmas and Happy New Year Gary…

        No political year in review for 2018?

        Last year we picked on RTS

        Guess it was my turn this year

        When I read your post it was like the adult voices in Charlie Brown Christmas episode
        be

        wa wa wa. wa wa wa

        https://youtu.be/U6Ewyb6AtWY

        ony would be proud…my big girl panties are on

        • Gary Olson says

          Again, your words…cut like a 🔪 and sting like a 🐝!

          And no…no more political commentary for me because it’s not funny any more.

          And why not pick on you? You’re a girl and you can’t fight back…can you?

          • Robert the Second says

            Gary,

            “You’re a girl and you can’t fight back…can you?” Are you kidding me?

            Looks like she is doing a pretty good job and holding her own just fine

              • Gary Olson says

                Okay…since I claimed ex hotshot pride on this one, I’m going to make try to get it right before RTS calls me out on it, because you know…he is a 🍆 👴🏻 and a ❄️! Sad. (And BOOM💥 goes the dynamite, with a double emoji insult)

                Wait…an ex hotshot quoting Julius Caesar in William Shakespeare’s tragedy, “Julius Caesar” from Act III, scene 1…in Latin?

                Now that…is a fuckin’ 🎤drop! 💋 ✌🏻

    • Charlie says

      Merry Christmas and Happy New Year and may Jesus and the Irish Goddesses and Gods make you a prosperous and safe new year for you and yours. I was given a German Shephard/ Husky mix dog I have named Lady. She is the Christmas Dog since I did not know she was to give birth to eight little fellows–some black like her and some white with spots.
      What mix they are is unknown-but it put me to fixing them a warm dog house and now I have plenty of Christmas puppies to attend to.

      Yes that is a simple short walk or drive right up to that wall/foundation thing—and by know Joy likely knows, maybe even dined with the drip torch persons. Well it is where peoples’s names can not be given out publicly else you jeopardize their jobs–they have families, responsibilities and want to keep their jobs in most instances. But over time some will

      There is a big question mark about the burn out that obviously the Drip Torch Men were doing. It becomes even a bigger question when the chief of Peeples Valley made denials that he even had a crew in the area and has done every possible thing to hide any of his records regarding his crew’s work on the Yarnell Fire. But Joy has uncovered the fact that other crews were also in the Yarnell area June 30, 2018. Some have already talked about their role there–but it is understandable that she is refraining from naming people–who wants to harm a persons occupation? And it is even better that they come forward on their own to tell the truth of what went down in the Shrine Area. We as public will have to be patient until the truth comes out.

      Even if a burn out is proven and time lines were to show that the Shrine burn might have caught the GMHS crew, no blame whatsoever could be laid to those crews–whoever was running the show and the immediate commanders demanding or suggesting comfort level shit to entice Marsh to be another paper tiger saving Juniper trees in a dream land where hundreds of wild fires over thousands of years did not burn that tree and now to be touted and awarded a get out of jail free card by killing his men doing an impossible mission–that is saving Yarnell from a raging wild fire exploding in a 45mile an hour wind and releasing the energy of the Atomic Heroshima Bomb Award–We tried but we died award.

      The hype goes on and on concerning the Yarnell fire and we wonder why so many people are fooled by the Command Posts. The devil looks good because he knows how to play the game and present before the public–and it is never the truth when it comes to the Yarnell Incident. More that 100 Wild Fire Experts will tell it as it was and do tell it here on Investigative Media–Yet the movies and book writers rather listen to people like Amanda Marsh and friends — especially those that had command posts and are up in the big G categories. They have reputations to maintain–a disaster that was the worlds worst boondoggle at fire fighting–probably ever– can not be laid at their feet if their efforts can prevent.

      So what do you do when you screwed up like was done at Yarnell during the Yarnell Killer Fire? You hand out awards and make Marsh, Steed, and Superiors look like saints. Hand out awards and say Marsh was just going to take his men and those Pulaski’s and dig out around Yarnell to save structures. Well they already knew that was Malarkey and impossible but seems like the publ;ic believed–they are so easily duped but get angry when they find they were.

      Then was the idea that God, the Devil or any other entity had anything to do with this fire. Maybe Thor struck that mountain with his thunder and lightening–but it was Yanell and Peeples Valley fire departments that failed to respond immediately. These folks knew full well the danger of that fire getting into the manzanita down below and had ample time to easily contain that strike–they get paid to protect you–so they had put up signs of extreme fire danger–anyone caught smoking or having a camp fire in the area would get a good reprimand and likely a ticket and fire for endangering the town. The state had even mapped out a half section in the Half Section including the death canyon where it was assigned the most extreme possible danger for a wild fire. That document had been made June 16, 2013, posted on internet and then disappeared as had the video of the two drip torch people in the Shrine area on June 30, 2013. There was urgent reason to contain anything from a smoker to a campfire to especially a lightening strike on the mountain with easy access considering a trail ran right to it withing 50 yards of the strike. An ATV 4×4 could have ran right to it and a couple good men with shovels should have had no problem containing it while it was in the boulders atop the Weavers.

      When Joy and I were atop the Weavers on June 30, 2013 I suggested that they really meant to burn out that Manzanita–It was obvious to me at the time that there was not really concerted effort to stop the fire. I believed a controlled burn was planned but Thor had sent that bolt of lightening a little early–but he screwed up the plan a bit–yet it was decided to let nature and Thor take the course. Burn baby burn and it did.

      It is imperative that the citizens take a look at this situation and how preventive measures would have prevented the death and destruction that took place–all needlessly when proper and quick action were in order. Maybe it will be a lesson learned for the Yarnellites as the manzanita will grow back quickly and thickly since it has been amply fertilized by hundreds of thousands of gallons of top grade fertilizer. If your local fire department does not do its job, your citizen group better hop to it. I can tell you it is can be done–I use to help my Dad do that very thing–clean out around burning trees hit by lightening so the fire did not spread–he and I did not have one bit of fire education or training but we prevented the spread of those fires we attended to.

      • Charlie says

        Perhaps I should explain why Dad would want to take immediate action to contain lightening strikes. We were living an a 12×12 army surplus tent to which he had constructed a board floor. He had a gold prospect and another he was driving a drift into in the immediate area. Any wild fire in that area would have taken out his tent house and driven him out of the area for some time. Sawmill Canyon in the Big Burro Mountains near Silver City is a very wild fire hazard area and was especially right in the area we were camped. We did not have a city to worry about with 650 residents–but you can bet if Dad were there at Yarnell he would have been onto that fire like a bee on honey flowers. Or maybe not–I believed like most–the local fire fighters would take care of an eminent danger and pronto.

  16. WantsToKnowTheTruth says

    Reply to Charlie post on December 14, 2018 at 5:41 pm

    >> Charlie said…
    >>
    >> WTKTT Tried to post earlier so will try again–Yes the rock wall
    >> is about 100 yards above the Shrine along where pavement turns
    >> to dirt. It is actually not a rock wall but part of a foundation
    >> where a building stood in years past. From the foundation up the
    >> dirt road farther about 50 to 100 yards (judgment off video we saw)
    >> was where they were using the drip torches.
    >>
    >> On December 14, 2018 at 10:22 pm, Charlie also said…
    >>
    >> If I were there I could step off the distance from the Shrine Parking
    >> Lot to the rock foundation. It would be close to a hundred yards
    >> from that lot so that if you could see the parking lot on satellite
    >> then you would look along the dirt road to the west side for the
    >> rock foundation. I termed it wall sometimes because it was about
    >> two feet above ground on the side facing the road but it was actually
    >> a foundation of an old dwelling. It the video it stood out as the
    >> marker we used to identify where we could locate the location of
    >> the zip torches being used. It has been several years now since
    >> I have been to that Shrine area–so going by memory on distance
    >> but that should not be far off.
    >>
    >> I do not know if google map can walk you to the wall.

    Yes. It can… and I see exactly what you are talking about now.

    Here are the GPS coordinates for the spot that is 100 yards west of where the Shrine Road pavement ends…

    Decimal Latitude: 34.227957
    Decimal Longitude: -112.753579

    Click the following link and RED BALLOON will be marking that exact spot ( with satellite view )…

    https://www.google.com/maps/place/34%C2%B013'40.7%22N+112%C2%B045'12.9%22W/@34.2278194,-112.7534933,143m/data=!3m1!1e3!4m5!3m4!1s0x0:0x0!8m2!3d34.227957!4d-112.753579

    In the lower right corner is the parking lot of the Shrine of St. Joseph.

    In the upper right corner is that ‘fork in the road’ with gated entrance to the Shrine Road Youth camp and the continuation of the dirt part of Shrine Road out to the west.

    In-between is that RED BALLOON that marks the spot that is exactly 100 yards west of where the pavement of Shrine Road ends and the dirt part begins, just at the west end of the Shrine of St. Joseph parking lot.

    If you were standing at that 100 yard mark ( the RED BALLOON ) and looking to the left ( the west side of Shrine Road ), then right in front of you is a rock wall and two foundations where there used to be structures.

    According to the Yavapai County Assessor’s office, that parcel of land which contains that rock wall and used to contain the two structures is Yavapai County Parcel number 203-11-209.

    It’s the WALTRAUD family property.

    The ‘owners’ from 1995 to 2005 were listed as: GOFFENA GEO MICHAEL & WALTRAUD M JT
    From 2006 to current ( 2018 ), the ‘owner name’ is: JOURDAN WALTRAUD M REVOCABLE LIV TRUST

    Yavapai County Tax summary link for parcel 203-11-209

    http://taxinquiry.yavapai.us/parcel/taxsummary?parcelNumber=203-11-109

    That Tax summary page shows…
    ———————————————————————————–
    Tax Summary for Yavapai County Parcel 203-11-109

    Current Owner Name & Mailing Address
    JOURDAN WALTRAUD M REVOCABLE LIV TRUST
    834 PRESCOTT HEIGHTS DR
    PRESCOTT, AZ 86301

    Legal Description: YARNELL HGTS LOTS 42 43 44 DIV 2
    ————————————————————————————-

    ** SAME POINT WHERE FRISBY AND BROWN PAUSED BEFORE ‘BREAKING THROUGH’

    As it turns out… that RED BALLOON on the Google map above, 100 yards from where the Shrine Road pavement ends, is also the exact same point where Blue Ridge Hotshots Brian Frisby and Trueheart Brown stopped, in their Polaris Ranger, before deciding to ‘break through’ to keep heading west to look for the Granite Mountain Hotshots following the deployment.

    Prescott National Forest employees Jason Clawson, KC ‘Bucky’ Yowell and Aaron Hulburd ( who was still filming all this ) were there with Frisby and Brown in their own ATVs at this same time.

    They all ‘paused’ there for 6 minutes, from exactly 5:29 PM to 5:34 PM, before deciding to ‘break through’ and continue west looking for the GM Hotshots.

    Aaron Hulburd filmed both of the structures at that property with the ‘rock-wall’ fully engulfed in flames at that time ( 5:30 PM ).

    This was almost an hour after the deployment, but the structures were still fully engulfed in flames and hadn’t even collapsed yet. The propane tank was still venting, but now ‘cooling off’ and venting less even while they stood there filming it.

    So whatever had set those 2 structures on fire at that exact location had to have been right at, or AFTER, the time of deployment. Any earlier than that and we wouldn’t still be seeing what we see in Aaron Hulburd’s 5:30 PM video taken at that location.

    • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

      Correction for above…

      That ‘fork in the road’ is in the upper LEFT corner of the satellite view, not the upper RIGHT.

      Sentence above should have read like this…

      “In the upper LEFT corner is that ‘fork in the road’ with gated entrance to the Shrine Road Youth camp and the continuation of the dirt part of Shrine Road out to the west.”

      https://www.google.com/maps/place/34%C2%B013'40.7%22N+112%C2%B045'12.9%22W/@34.2278194,-112.7534933,143m/data=!3m1!1e3!4m5!3m4!1s0x0:0x0!8m2!3d34.227957!4d-112.753579

    • The Truth Will Always Remain Elusive says

      So Sonny and Joy both said “rock wall”, which Sonny clarified to be an old rock foundation for a former home. So, IF they were doing a burnout before the deployment, and there was only a rock foundation in the video, how could there then be structures burning on those same foundations almost an hour AFTER the deployments??

      • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

        That’s the 19 dollar question, isn’t it?

        I suppose one theory would be that what was actually filmed in that mysterious video clip was some crew doing ‘mop up’ along Shrine road the NEXT DAY ( July 1, 2013 )… and using drip torches to basically just ‘clean up’ that area and prevent any flare ups.

        There were any number of Hot Shot crews that showed up to work in Yarnell the day AFTER the tragedy. Mopping up on Shrine Road might have been one of the assignments.

        • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

          ** SKETCHES OF THE BURNED STRUCTURES
          ** ON SHRINE ROAD PARCEL 203-11-109

          The Yavapai County Assessors office has no photos of the structures that we see engulfed in flames there on parcel 203-11-109… but they DO have ‘floorplan sketches’ that they used for property tax evaluation(s).

          ———————————————————————————–
          Yavapai County Parcel 203-11-109

          Parcel Physical Address: 16989 W Shrine Dr

          Current Owner Name & Mailing Address
          JOURDAN WALTRAUD M REVOCABLE LIV TRUST
          834 PRESCOTT HEIGHTS DR
          PRESCOTT, AZ 86301

          Legal Description
          YARNELL HGTS LOTS 42 43 44 DIV 2

          Building Sketches (1)
          2010 IMP 1 3-14-2011
          Sketch ( floorplan only ) of the buildings on the property circa 3/14/2011…

          https://gis.yavapai.us/docs/asr/apex//real/203/R000060709/2010_IMP_1_3-14-2011_203-11-109.jpg

          ———————————————————————————-

          Thanks to Aaron Hulburd’s filming on June 30, 2013… we know EXACTLY when both of these structures on parcel 203-11-109 were destroyed.

          They were fully engulfed in flames at exactly 5:30 PM ( but had still not fully collapsed ) almost an hour after the deployment on June 30, 2013.

          The EXACT time is known is because Blue Ridge Hotshot Trueheart Brown was standing right there, with his GPS unit still recording exact times and location. Captain Brown’s GPS data from his recording ALL DAY on June 30, 2013 has been verified over and over again to be 100 percent accurate as to TIMESTAMPS and LOCATIONS.

          • Joy Collura says

            I am travelling

            Heading to my Neuropathy specialist

            Try to post this week

            Same as Norb
            Hard to post via cell

            I notified
            Waltraud family to answer that.

            Too hard to type

        • Norb Szczurek says

          Wow, been trying to post f0r days. Hopefully this works. Several things to address

          First happy belated birthday to Sonny. I am glad you survived y9ur dogs hunting .trip. I have said it before and I stand firm that I did see the video that has since disappeared . We did walk by the rock wall ( foundation) on my first visit to the site, and I remember that. In the video I remember two FF’s with drip torches – don’t remember helmet colors but yellow shirts and green pants (of course).

          I totally respect all opinions on this site, but I will say based on my experience that structures burn well after the fire front has passed. Numerous times I have seen structures lost, not from the flaming front but from the residual low intensity residually fire as the responders are busy chasing the “dragon”, or the main fire front.

          I have no facts to prove this is what happened on Shrine Rd., but I also have nothing to prove that this is not what happened.

          • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

            When you saw this video clip… and ( apparently ) the same rock wall ( foundation ) there at 100 yards west of where the Shrine Road pavement ends… do recall seeing ANY ‘structures’ at ( or near ) this ‘wall’?

            Now that the location of this mysterious video has been VERIFIED… I guess the next step is to just try and figure out whether those structures at that location were actually THERE at the time the ‘mystery video’ was shot… or whether those 2 structures were ALREADY GONE.

            That will go a long ways towards finally establishing WHEN this ‘mystery video’ was taken… and whether whatever was seen happening could have possibly played any role at all in what happened out in the box canyon.

            • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

              Typo above. I left out the word “YOU”.

              Sentence above should have read like this…

              “When you saw this video clip… and ( apparently ) the same rock wall ( foundation ) there at 100 yards west of where the Shrine Road pavement ends… do YOU recall seeing ANY ‘structures’ at ( or near ) this ‘wall’?”

          • Charlie says

            Thanks Norb–It is great to hear from you–always welcome here if you get down this far as well–I have a place you can hook up water lights and sewer so you can spend plenty of time if you desire.

            Your testimony is worth 5 of mine because t Fire work was your business for many years until you retired and I know you bossed two crews of wild land fire fighters, so anyone can appreciate your expertise on these fire matters.

            It is quite strange so many of the people that contribute to this site were never consulted during the investigation. For example, we had to hike Dr. Ted because the FS, Sheriff Dept, the Yarnell Fire Department all refused–yet out of respect a man that was a `15 year smoke jumper, one of the nations top fire death investigators-a man that saved some lives on the line and with his Doctorate in Psychology– That man would be the absolutely respected and taken on a hike to the area so he could make an evaluation. And that goes for Norb and any other of the heroes we hiked that could not get an audience with the comrades in the area. Well their mistake since those types of missed opportunities will come back to haunt them.

            Yes surviving a point blank hit with a 12 guage that broke three ribs, punctured my right lung and shattered my clavicle was an ordeal –The lead shot is scatter throughout my chest area. They put 1% arsenic in lead shot so it will come out round–but then I mined arsenopyrite and gold in that Pine Valley Gold mine for two years–so a little more arsenic is not welcome–two poisons lead and arsenic–no wonder rabbits fall dead so quickly.

            Maybe the lead will encapsulate–but it has been known to travel about the body–Joy was counting shot and said she lost count at about two hundred in the xray photo. But you know what, I am getting myself back together–will go hunting rabbits–but have to lay off the Shot gun because of recoil. I did shoot a 22 and that was OK so the boys (my dogs) will be getting a rabbit meal now and again after all.

          • Woodsman says

            Norb,

            “I totally respect all opinions on this site, but I will say based on my experience that structures burn well after the fire front has passed. Numerous times I have seen structures lost, not from the flaming front but from the residual low intensity residually fire as the responders are busy chasing the “dragon”, or the main fire front.”

            Yes, this often how structures burn in the wildland urban interface. One firefighting tactic taught in Operations in the Wildland Urban Interface course S-215, is called “Fire Front Following.”

            Excellent point concerning the potential timing issues via ground ignition timelines as related to structures becoming involved and burning to the ground.

        • Charlie says

          NO mop up situation–the next day that area was all burned out. Would not make sense that they would be doing a burn our the next day.

      • Charlie says

        Yes I think we said rock wall but in fact it was not a wall but a part of the foundation to a previous structure–there was never a structure on that foundation even before the burn out–the structure had been removed many years before. That foundation looks like a rock wall because they built up a wall like structure on one side to account for the slope in the land there. You nearly have to go to the foundation to understand why we would use the term wall–it was actually as I remember maybe a foot and half to two feet high. If Joy gets up there she can maybe take a photo of it so you see what we are talking about. I suspect it had a wooden or log cabin above ground there at one time–likely 50 years or more ago.

        In the video it looks like part of a rock wall from the side view they were using–exactly as you would see it when you walk by it.

        So the new Year is soon to be here. The FS and others will come out with the truth and nothing but the truth in the new Year–(April 1, 2019). The next year has 20–the number in the crew and 19 the number that died. Something will give in this coming year.

        Yes there are some strange happenings in Arizona. Before I met Joy, I told her about the UFO situation near Dolan Springs. At that time I had ten acres and lived out of town some 3 and a half miles–so no street lights–there are none in Dolan Springs any way–the town consists of a bar, grocery store, laundry and about 100 residents. Don’t blink your eyes as you drive through else you don’t see the town.

        But about the UFO situation–and many there had seen the, but Joy came along and photographed a few. One had green lasers shooting out of it and another she enlarged the photo so then we could see smaller craft surrounding the central round object. I had witnessed some extremely high speed objects transverse the complete sky from one side of the earth to the other in seconds, then return in the opposite direction a few seconds later to do the same act. What those things were I do not know but always suspected they were government experiments of highly secretive nature. But then it may be the Irish Gods and Goddesses screwing around up there in their personal vehicles.

        One thing you read about are these cattle mutations. Pieces of hide are cut away with laser precision. Well I had a pit bull out there named Leroy. Leroy was a murderous dog–he would kill my other dogs one at a time while I was away in town. I would return and Leroy would act like an angel smiling at me but bloody as all hell and guilty with –first a dead blue healer I had and then another mix breed.
        He did allow a female dog to live, his pleasure was killing the males. But one day I came home and under his neck and on the front part of his torso was a piece of hide missing. It was the size of a silver dollar and as perfectly circular exposing the bare meat below where the hide had been That incident baffled me plenty and I never had an explanation of how that could be done. Leroy did not seem to be bothered by it and in time it healed into a round scar. But it made me think of the cattle mutations that had no reasonable explanation.

        So today I was in Las Cruces enjoying a Big Breakfast at MacDonalds if you can do that and noticed an Albuquerque Journal that had been left behind. There was an article about Father Chavez, a Catholic Priest who had been helping police in the investigations of other Priests involved in child molesting. He had been doing this at the Santa Fe Diocese for some 20 years but had broken a vow of silence he had signed to do these helps to the police to find and prosecuted offenders. He also gave me and I am sure some others some confidence in the Church to know that there are people in there doing the right thing despite the Chruch’s attempts to keep these offenses hidden. He said that when trying to locate an offender people were told that Priest had died some time ago. He in fact knew the man was alive and had been moved, yet the church was trying to protect its assets. Well this man is a hero in my book–risking a possibility of ex-communication–but still in good conscience doing the right thing. You can bet some of the higher ups–Bishoprics and such are gritting their teeth at his work–but maybe God, Jesus and Mary are happy to see that someone is on the up and up. I know there are many good priests in the church–yet they too have had their mouths sealed with superglue.

        What the article also did was to remind me that among all the good people that fought the Yarnell Fire, there are a few good men that will eventually come forward with more of their testimony to help us get past the white wash. Their good deed will, like Father Chavez, be a good work–for the truth can not and will not be hidden forever.

        Still I realize the President wants 4.9 billion laid aside for Fire Fighting money for the people in that industry. This year it is costing about 3 billion–a record year for cost of fighting wild fires. So there is big money to be laid out and yes a Congressional Investigation is proper–but the fellows spending the big money are friends of people in high places. So the motion against big money may be slower than some mesquite honey I had allowed to damn near crystallize. I had to set it next to my wood stove and allow it to feel the heat long enough that it is now back to normal.

        Thanks to WTKTT–my ancestors came out of Dublin–Irish Catholic–not a bad religion at all–Ted, my son was buried a Catholic with a Priest officiating. Religion is good and we need a few with pipe lines to gods. WTKTT has shown the map and how far they could go back to start the burn that was going on and was ending at the Shrine. Someone has already estimated the time it would take to get to that location from where they sensibly should have started a burn. I have no idea of the time but I am certain one of the fellows that was in the video would know exactly when and where they started the burn out. Maybe he will read the article about the Priest and do the right thing? I won’t hold my breath even in the smoke and mirrors. Thank you WTKTT–you have been great at getting us to look at the details.

      • Charlie says

        As I remeber there is only one foundation there and not two so are we looking at a different location. That is a small foundation as well and the structure that was there had been long gone years before. Joy and I had walked by that foundation several times before the fire and nothing was there except the foundation. Perhaps Joy will chime in on this since she would know what you have posted WTKTT, and whether that is the same rock foundation (wall Like) that we are identifying.

        She is in the area I am not. If I were I would go there and photograph the foundation so you could get a positive take on it.

        • Charlie says

          About the UFO, Leroy event–Joy also took a picture that had an apparition in it that we could not see but appeared in the photo. Maybe she posted that on her website–another strange thing. Maybe Willis was right–some god got a hold on Marsh and marched him and his men to their deaths and according to God’s will–they had other things to do in heaven. I hardly believe it but considering some of the things I have seen it could cause some to scratch their heads bald.

          • Charlie says

            Take your time Joy–do the project when you feel up to it. The best job is done when you want to do it–not when you are pressed but at your leisure and pleasure.

      • Charlie says

        I can’t tell anything by that map–that foundation is on the left or west side of the dirt road — that red marker is on the east? I think what you were looking at as far as the walls you showed were structures that burned but his is a small foundation from an old building. Well it will be there and someone will get a photo–you can’t miss it if you walk up the road. I still have property over that way so may get back there someday to get a photo of that foundation and then you will understand how it could be called a rock wall yet it is really part of a foundation. From that point up the dirt road a ways would be the drip torch area and they were on the same side as the foundation in the video. The foundation stood out as a reference point.

      • Charlie says

        If there were structures there burning almost an hour after the burn out that would go along with the sense that there was a burn out there. That main fire as we saw it was several miles to the north of the Shrine area. It turned back but was in a position to go west of the Shrine area in a wind reversal–why Donut was almost killed. If a burn out were going in the Shrine area and structures were burning there an hour later, if you can determine when the structures started burning then you can figure about when they were doing the drip torching there in that area.

        I am sorry I can not back down on seeing that video and I do believe it was on the very evening and was part of a later video that was filmed on the death day. I say this because the wind was up just as in the extended videos. I know what I saw and would not remember except we took special interest to locate the rock wall /foundation thing to prove the location. Joy has taken much time and effort–her memory and honesty impeccable and especially I can say in this matter, the facts have been hidden–who did the burn out –I believed it likely was Peeples Valley Fire Dept. but that was because they hid their information so much and denied even being in the area despite proof by the later video of their truck in there. Then Joy has posted another fire department in there had a look out at the Grotto next the Shrine. What do you make of this–I can tell you–If Joy has interviewed and seen actual evidence of the burn out despite the redaction of the actual drip torching–then it only adds to evidence there was a burn out there. I do not have the time it started but certainly Joy and others do know–Yet they will not reveal something that needs to be said by the actual participants. Joy nor I will jeopardize someones occupation and livelihood. However, it goes without saying that they were not lighting bushes up for the fun of it.

    • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

      ** THE AARON HULBURD VIDEOS TAKEN BETWEEN 5:29 PM and 5:34 PM

      Prescott National Forest ( PNF ) employee Aaron Hulburd actually shot THREE videos during that 5:29 PM to 5:34 PM timeframe while they were all ‘stopped’ there by that ‘rock wall’ 100 yards west of where the pavement of Shrine Road ends and the dirt part begins.

      Those three videos have the filenames…

      M2U00270.MP4 – Length: 44 seconds
      The PNF FFs and Frisby and Brown are ‘pulling up’ to where they will stop on Shrine road there near the ‘rock wall’ and two burning structures.

      M2U00271.MP4 – Length: 59 seconds
      The PNF FFs and Frisby and Brown have just ‘stopped’ there at that point 100 yards west of where the pavement of Shrine Road ends. Good closeup of the still-burning structures at the start of this video.

      M2U00272.MP4 – Length: 2 minutes and 5 seconds.
      The video where the PNF FFs are still with Frisby and Brown stopped near trying to figure out what to do next. Aaron Hulburd continues filming the structures that are fully engulfed in flame there on parcel 203-11-109. At + 1:18, Brian Frisby walks over towards the burninig structures to evaluate them. The propane tank continues to vent, but not as bad as earlier.

      And all three of these Aaron Hulburd videos are all still available on this public page at Arizona Forestry…

      https://dffm.az.gov/New-Video-Clips

      • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

        Just to make it easier… what follows are three DIRECT links to the three Aaro Hulburd videos mentioned above that he shot in the 5:29 PM to 5:34 PM timeframe 100 yards west of where the Shrine Road pavement ends.

        M2U00270.MP4 – Length: 44 seconds

        The PNF FFs and Frisby and Brown are ‘pulling up’ to where they will stop on Shrine road there near the ‘rock wall’ and two burning structures.

        https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IFSrLmTyNo8&feature=youtu.be

      • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

        M2U00272.MP4 – Length: 2 minutes and 5 seconds.

        The video where the PNF FFs are still with Frisby and Brown stopped near trying to figure out what to do next. Aaron Hulburd continues filming the structures that are fully engulfed in flame there on parcel 203-11-109. At + 1:18, Brian Frisby walks over towards the burning structures to evaluate them. The propane tank continues to vent, but not as bad as earlier.

        https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pQmDS908QnA&feature=youtu.be

        • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

          Reply to Charlie post on December 20, 2018 at 11:19 am

          >> Charlie said…
          >>
          >> At the time they were drip torching no vehicles as I remember
          >> for sure not next to the rock wall foundation thing.

          Copy that.

          Take a look at the FIRST THREE pictures in the following ‘slideshow’…

          https://youtu.be/ul0Brj0SK1k

          Are those FIRST THREE photos actually pictures of the “rock wall foundation thing” you saw in the original ‘burnout’ video?

  17. Joy A. Collura says

    Sonny and World-

    In the beginning I never believed the “burnout discussion” based on this video
    ( https://youtu.be/C65FcpAi_-4 ) at marker 8:58/18:48 (I see no smoke or fire) yet over time seeing other areas on the ground I had shelved the data over the years yet I am firm and I will not waiver on this – otherwise I would not have made a blog and placed disclaimers and began to unravel the documents to push those who do know to talk and if they do not eventually enough documents will be public but some fail to comprehend I never saved the data in a normal way and until you see it my data is 123 or “ab” so what is 123 or “ab” so I literally have to look at the document and then I re-label this time as I go through but I will get side tracked because I was on the Paul Morin topic and it vanished so I went to looking for the data again and I find YCSO radio net stuff then I save it then I accidentally moved it to an area I forgot so I am just like I will get to it when I do but there is NO CTRL F in this situation— it really is a nightmare so until the day I pass on I believe Craig when he tells me his brother was there by the Sesame to Shrine Corridor who is a FF and who the world will be shocked later to find out how many engines were never even reported to be there in any reports but they were for sure there. Yeah, I am positively sure I won’t stop pushing the data forward. The world does not realize as well I do not keep the data on me so I have to get to my FOIA storage and so it is not so easy as one thinks…it is not readily there 24/7 for me because I do protect it because I was told one time some areas I can never get again in Prescott due to a building fire destroyed all the records so yeah I do not even make it easy for myself to access never the less the world but I promise every chance able I am working on the next post or the next conference or the next Academy training. Yet I have a really good feeling someone is about to come to the front…and all I have to say is thank you…

    • Charlie says

      Good to hear Joy is back from North Carolina safe and sound. Yes reviewing the situation the burn would have started some two miles back from the Shrine Area. (How long does it take to walk with drip torches and burn bushes at the same time on a two mile back burn?) No I do not think the men knew that the GMHS crew had left the black and were not far and uphill from their location. Early on I had realized there was a burn going on there above the Shrine once Joy directed me to the video with men using drip torches in that area. With the winds going directly uphill to the Death Basin it certainly could be a factor in the deaths of the GMHS crew.

      When you can not get information and if there is much is redacted then one wonders if the truth will ever come out. We know they were burning in that area but Peeples Valley Chief said he was no where around that day, that they had no records of what they did during the fire, then that the State and FS had the records and so forth. Talk about evasion–and I did wonder what there was to hide. The record would say whether those men were Peeples Valley firemen or not and what time they started the burn and where they started it. Obviously it was not right there near the Shrine that this burn was started–So we estimate that it likely was two miles back in from the Shrine area. Talk about a dense canyon there–it had to go like gangbusters and with the winds at high velocity would have covered a mile and a half in minutes. Referring to what I have read, every ten degrees of slope doubles the fire velocity –one reason you do not want to get caught uphill from an advancing fire. Also a canyon acts as a chimney so that wind is funneled and increased in velocity as well. The cards were really stacked heavily against the GMHS crew with all that facing them–then to get into an entanglement of bear wallow bushes–that is another deal–no look out and not escape plan–did not trust the boulders, instead took the time to cut out in the middle of a fire that was releasing energy of a Heroshima type A bomb every 15 minutes. Did these men not know these things or are they just some slap happy people that have no clue. What was Marsh’s and Steeds training and awareness capacity when they were risking at terrible odds the lives of 17 young wild land fire fighters. Shoeffler, Honda and others pointed out the risk taking they had seen before as had others concerning Marsh. Seems like this man had no business being a wild land fire fighter boss. Perhaps he would have been a good man on the line–but to risk men like that and be known for it–who was responsible for allowing him to continue until he killed his crew?

      Yes, Joy has mentioned there were others at the Shrine beside the Peeples Valley crew. So maybe more is to come and someone of those men will come forward with the facts about the burn.

      But on second though–perhaps not. Too much flack if they talk and tell the truth.

      • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

        Reply to Charlie post on December 16, 2018 at 10:40 pm

        >> Charlie said…
        >>
        >> Yes reviewing the situation the burn would have started
        >> some two miles back from the Shrine Area.

        Two MILES?

        Which direction do you mean by ‘back from the Shrine Area’?

        Two miles due WEST of the ‘Shrine Area’ would put you on the top of the Weaver mountains, almost exactly at Granite Mountain’s ‘final rest spot’ where GM Hotshot Christopher Mackenzie shot all his final photos and videos.

        Two miles due NORTH of the ‘Shrine Area’ would put you only about 1000 yards south of Hays Ranch Road, all the way up in Peeples Valley.

        Two miles due SOUTH of the ‘Shrine Area’ would put you halfway down the mountain on Hwy 89 towards Congress.

        Two miles due EAST of the ‘Shrine Area’ would put you… well… you know… way out in the boondock east of Yarnell.

        Are you saying you believe the ‘burning’ seen in the video you saw was just the ‘tail end’ of some larger ( and more time consuming ) ‘burnout’ operation that started some distance ( back? ) from the Shrine Road Youth camp area?

        Again… which ‘direction’ are you referring to?

        >> Charlie also said…
        >>
        >> With the winds going directly uphill to the Death Basin it
        >> certainly could be a factor in the deaths of the GMHS crew.

        It still all depend on WHEN any kind of ‘manual burnout’ took place.

        All the Blue Ridge Hotshot photos and videos they took as they were ‘evacuating’ the Shrine Youth Camp area in the 4:27 PM to 4:30 PM timeframe show no ‘manual burnouts’ happening in that Shrine area. The fire was approaching fast from up over the ridge, but the Shrine road area itself, all the way from the Youth Camp back to the Shrine Road parking lot, was not ‘on fire’ at all ( yet ).

        That was just 9 minutes before Jesse Steeds first totally-botched MAYDAY call from out at the deployment site.

        Blue Ridge Hotshots Brian Frisby and Trueheart Brown were the last ones out of the Shrine Road Youth camp area… on purpose. They stayed behind to make sure ALL of the other firefighters who had been working back there had exited the area before they, themselves, drove their Polaris Ranger back east on the dirt part of Shrine road to the Shrine of St. Joseph’s parking lot.

        Frisby and Brown pulled up to that parking lot to meet ( and speak with ) PNF firefighters Jason Clawson, KC ‘Bucky’ Yowell and Aaron Hulburd ( who was still filming all this ) at 4:37 PM.

        There was still no ‘fire’ visible on either side of the Shrine Road, looking west from the Shrine of St. Joseph’s parking lot… and Frisby and Brown did not report having to drive through ( or by ) any ‘manual burnout’ as they exited from the Youth Camp circa 4:37 PM.

        That was ( now ) just TWO minutes before Jesse Steed’s first totally-botched MAYDAY call would hit the radio at exactly 4:39 PM.

        So if even just TWO minutes before the first botched MAYDAY call would be heard from the GM Hotshots there was still no evidence of any manual burnout(s) having been started in the ‘Shrine Road’ area… then it is not possible that any manual burnout that might have even been started AFTER that, in that Shrine area, could have possibly been any kind of “factor in the deaths of the GMHS crew.”

        Now that the LOCATION of this mystery video has been VERIFIED… it’s really all about figuring out WHEN that video was shot when it comes to whether it could have possibly had anything to do with what happened out in the box canyon.