Chapter I, Chapter II, Chapter II supplement, Chapter III, Chapter IV, Chapter V, Chapter VI, Chapter VII, Chapter VIII , Chapter IX, Chapter X, Chapter XI, Chapter XII , Chapter XIII, Chapter XIV, Chapter XV, Chapter XVI, Chapter XVII, Chapter XVIII, Chapter XIX, Chapter XX, Chapter XXI, Chapter XXII, Chapter XXIII, Chapter XXIV and Chapter XXV.
© Copyright 2018 John Dougherty, All rights Reserved. Written For: Investigative MEDIA
**
** THE PFINGSTON / HARWOOD PODCASTS ( CONTINUED )
**
** BRIAN FRISBY IS TALKING TO OTHER HOTSHOT CREWS
** ABOUT WHAT REALLY HAPPENED AT THE YARNELL FIRE.
Apparently, Blue Ridge Hotshot Superintendent Brian Frisby is sick and tired of beiing told he can’t discuss what he knows ( and has ALWAYS known ) about the Yarnell Hill Fire.
According to Deborah Pfingston and former GM Hotshot Doug Harwood… Frisby spoke to an entire California Hotshot crew just last summer about what REALLY happened in Yarnell, and whatever he told them was enough for them to realize the SAIT investigation was a total FARCE.
In their ‘introduction’ to their PODCAST Episode 8, published just 5 weeks ago on April 24, 2019, Harwood ‘reads’ an email they received from one of the firefighters on this Hotshot crew that Frisby spoke to.
Our Investigation, Our Truth
What Happened to the Granite Mountain Interagency Hotshots
PODCAST Episode 08: Your Changes, Our Changes
Published: April 24, 2019
https://anchor.fm/our-truth/episodes/Episode-8-Your-Changes–Our-Changes-e3qqcb
Episode 8, Part 1
+0:48
———————————————————————————————————–
Doug Harwood: We have a comment from a firefighter on a Hotshot crew in California. He says…
“My crew was lucky enough to work with Blue Ridge last summer. On one of the slow days the Blue Ridge supe ( Brian Frisby ) took time to speak to our whole crew about the events of that day. Between THAT conversation, and listening to your podcasts, I’m appalled by the FAILURE of our original investigation. Not only was it an injustice to the perished firefighters, it’s a disservice to our current firefighters as well. How are we supposed to learn ANY lessons from the tragedy if we don’t know exactly what happened?”
Doug Harwood: We want to thank that firefighter for his message.
Deborah Pfingston: Yes. Thank you so much.
———————————————————————————————————
And just for the sake of completeness…
Here again is that EMAIL that Joy Collura obtained showing Blue Ridge Hotshot Superintendent Brian Frisby officially telling U.S. Forestry Service ‘Human Factors Specialist’ Joseph Harris that the “human factors” at the 2013 Yarnell Hill Fire were defintely “off the charts”… and much of what happened that day HAS been “swept under the rug”…
———————————————————————————————————–
From: Frisby, Brian H -FS
Sent: Tuesday, April 12, 2016 10:08 AM
To: Harris, Joseph R -FS
Subject: Human Factors!
Good morning, Joe,
It sounds like you have had the opportunity to go through the Yarnell Hill staff ride and may have some questions about some of the human factors that contributed that day. Talking to ( Redacted ) it sound like the picture that is being painted is very different than what we remember. I have been invited to the operational staff ride on the 26th and 27th of this month, unfortunately any input is probably too late.
I can tell you that the human factors that day were off the charts.
We both know that the overall decision to leave the black was made by ( Eric Marsh ) but there was so much that went on that day that has been swept under the rug that may have affected the outcome.
I would love the opportunity to talk to you about it, I believe there is a lot to be learned from this event and if we are going to adopt this as an agency we need to get this right. Anyhow hope you and your family are doing well and I hope to hear from you. Thanks.
( USDA Logo ) ( U.S. Forestry Service Logo )
Brian Frisby
Blue Ridge IHC Superintendent
Coconino National Forest, Mogollon Rim Ranger District
p: 928-477-5023
c: ( Redacted )
bfrisby (at) fs.fed.us
8738 Ranger Road
Happy Jack, AZ 86024
http://www.fs.fed.us
( Twitter Icon ) ( Facebook Icon )
Caring for the land and serving people
———————————————————————————————————–
Oh yeah…I remember why I started down that road yesterday, I was giving a real world example to make the point that just like Shawna Legarza and Mike Dudley, I was offered the very same thing that they were offered to betray all of my values and morals as well.
But I can prove I am NOTHING like they are by the simple fact that I spent the first half of my career as a rock star and the entire second half never being promoted again. And that is because when I stood at the very same crossroads that they did, I choose the path they didn’t take. I found the hill that was worth dying on. They never did…fuck them and everyone like them.
Legarza and Dudley are really bad people who are putting wild land firefighters at an increased chance of dying on the line today because they failed to do the Right Thing. Legarza on the Battlement Creek Fire Disaster Staff Ride and the other management whore Dudley…who failed to do the right thing on the Yarnell Hill Fire Disaster Staff Ride. Like I wrote yesterday…they are both despicable human beings.
Oh…and one more thing. There is something I can do for the kids on the fire line today even though I failed to convince Legarza and her posse of sycophants and enablers that they needed to do the right thing for the kids on the fire line today.
I can tell them that the bodies of those hotshots who laid on the steep slope of Battlement Mesa surrounded by the brightly colored flagging that fluttered in the gentle breeze and bright sunshine on that beautiful day with clear blue skies…were really charred and blackened corpses who we referred to as crispy critters.
So…you shouldn’t ever be like them. No fuckin’ wildfire or shot of adrenaline is worth dying for…you should always go home to those who love you instead.
You guys know that JD moved us up to a new chapter, ey. Maybe not …
I carried over several of the Chapter XXVI posts on the YH Fire Staff Ride
( https://www.investigativemedia.com/please-begin-yarnell-hill-fire-chapter-xxvii-here/ )
No…I didn’t know. But that actually begs a very interesting question. Does it matter? That isn’t intended to be a flippant question. I would like to know what you think? Does it matter?
Gary, you are the genuine person and nothing to fear for people that listen or read your comments. unless they are phoney. You will always stand the hero you are in the fire fighting profession–your comments and instruction will save many who will listen. Those that balk at wisdom are also those that perish and make disaster for those such as the young GMHS victims.
Some say they went willingly along with the dictates of Marsh and Steed and those commanding from above. Yet they would say they had the trust in the abilities of those that commanded them to their deaths. Sadly the young trust commanders such as we saw at Yarnell, yet their trust would destroy them and cause insufferable turmoil and heartbreak to the families and loved ones involved. Many broke down and cried as Zack Ashoor said he did in the bar when he heard the news. Maybe the heartbreak killed him, he died a young 29 soon after the ordeal. . I too had shed my share of tears and heartbreak for the situation, eventhough I had never personally known or associated with any of them. Zack did. Those who could not understand the magnitude of killing 17 young wild land fire fighters and the death of their bosses as well would not understand how all suffered from this event.
Even with all the awards given and the cover ups and support for a few that did not want the truth out, it does finally come down to the importance of continued hammering at those that have hidden the facts. Page after page of facts have been redacted and hidden. And certainly it has maintained the good image of the wild land fire fighting profession. And indeed there would be above 90% deserving the image. Yet to deny the truth that caused the Yarnell GMHS deaths is at the peril of lives of future wild land fire fighters.
Since I had a son that also died an untimely death similar to the carelessness that I saw at Yarnell, I can only applaud those men and women that have steadfastly revealed the facts and reasons for those deaths. Certainly WTKTT, Gary, RTS, Hondo, Woodsman, Jd,, Norb, Joy and many others here have educated me with facts and I am grateful knowing that the people that need to know will know the actual reason their loved ones were killed.
Respect is one thing but Respect of the truth is the only way to Heaven Mr. Hall or anyone that had anything to do with the Yarnell Fire of 2013 and the Tenderfoot Fire at Yarnell of 2015.
Reply to Robert the Second (RTS) post on May 1, 2019 at 9:53 pm
>> RTS said…
>>
>> The reason that the Yarnell Hill Fire is not included on the Fireline Leadership
>> website and in that list is because it was an Arizona STATE Wildland Fire. All the
>> others are Federal fires.
>>
>> That is what the AZ Forestry Bill Boyd and OMNA International say…
And you BELIEVE them?
I thought you were smarter than that.
From PDF page 111 of the 2013 Yarnell Hill Fire Special Accident Investigation Report ( SAIR )…
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While the City of Prescott hosted the Granite Mountain IHC, it is CLEAR they were exclusively hired and trained as an Interagency Hotshot Crew. They operated within a much larger system, that of the NWCG where local, State and Federal firefighting agencies come together as part of the nation’s wildfire response.
————————————————————————————————–
From the actual Yarnell ‘wrongful death’ settlement agreement…
NOTE: These ‘actions’ were non-negotiable. It was the COURT saying what MUST be done…
————————————————————————————————–
Page 11 of 11 – Settlement Agreement and Release
USDC CV-14-02308-PHX
APPENDIX-A
What ASFD WILL do:
1. After all litigation is concluded, including appeals, ASFD will meet for a full day (8 hours) with the GMIHC families and their consultants/experts to review data and information and to answer questions posed by the families and their consultants/experts. Counsel for the State Forester and the survivors shall be present. To the extent possible,questions will be submitted in writing 2 weeks in advance of the meeting. This will be a facilitated learning process, and Forestry will provide a facilitator to assist with this experience. Plaintiffs may request that specific individuals from ASFD and others who were present during the Yarnell Hill Fire attend.
2. After all litigation is concluded, including appeals, ASFD will request a Lessons Learned product regarding the Yarnell Hill fire.
3. After all litigation is concluded, including appeals, ASFD will request that NWCG create a staff ride for the Yarnell Hill fire and will make its personnel and information it has collected available. In addition, ASFD will recommend that family members of the GMIHC crew be included in the process of developing the staff ride, and that NWCG review how this Fire relates to the Common Denominators in Fatality Fires and figure out if there is a common thread.
——————————————————————————————————
“ASFD will request that NWCG create a staff ride for the Yarnell Hill fire”
They did that ( as the court ordered them to do ).
The NWCG agreed… and ‘split no hairs’ about it being a STATE fire versus a FEDERAL one.
NWCG hired their usual staff-ride-development partner ‘Omna International’ to help the NWCG create the court-ordered Yarnell Hill Fire staff ride.
Omna International then, in turn, did their job and worked with NWCG to create the Yarnell Hill Fire Staff Ride documents, curriculum… and executed on the plan.
To this day… ( and even at this moment )… ‘Omna International’ considers the Yarnell Hill Fire Staff Ride that they developed FOR the NWCG to be one its premier accomplishments, along with the FOUR other wildland fatality Staff Rides they developed FOR the NWCG… and it is listed as such on their own website.
ALL of the ‘Staff Rides’ listed below, that were done by Omna International FOR the NWCG, are in the NWCG’s current ‘Library’ of staff rides… EXCEPT for the Yarnell Hill Fire Staff Ride…
https://www.theomna.com/events.html
——————————————————————–
Mann Gulch Fire Staff Ride
South Canyon Fire Staff Ride
Dude Fire Staff Ride
Thirtymile Fire Staff Ride
Yarnell Hill Fire Staff Ride
——————————————————————–
I repeat… no one ‘split hairs’ about it being a STATE versus FEDERAL thing when the Yarnell Hill Staff Ride WAS developed by the NWCG.
It is/was ALREADY DONE, and the end product was ALREADY “FULLY ENDORSED” by the NWCG.
From the NWCG Leadership site’s own ‘About our Staff Rides’ page…
https://www.fireleadership.gov/toolbox/staffride/index.html
——————————————————————————————————
The Staff Ride
The intent of this resource is to provide a library of information on significant wildland fire events.
The NWCG Leadership Subcommittee is the sponsor for this resource.
——————————————————————————————————
Keyphrase: “a library of information on significant wildland fire events.”.
Nothing about STATE versus FED. Only “significant wildland fire events”.
So where is the ( already done, already endorsed ) NWCG Yarnell Hill Fire Staff Ride product?
Why is it MISSING?
That is a really, really, really good question. I know that technically RTS is right and that the YHF Disaster was a state versus federal fire and I am pretty sure all of the other fires listed were federal fires.
But that is probably because no state agency has ever invested the kind of money it takes to create a staff ride before now and this one was only done because of a court order.
I would also say that RTS’ take would get more traction in my brain 🧠 if this
https://www.nwcg.gov/wfldp/toolbox/staff-ride
was a federal website run by say…the USFS. But…that isn’t the case, it is a website run by the NWCG.
And secondly, and just as important is the value that the USFS places on its relationships with its partner agency. which certainly includes all of the individual state FIRE programs.
It is also possible that the omission of the YHF Disaster Staff Ride is just an oversight and a disconnect in the NWCG between somebody and their webmaster?
But…I am going to go with HAL 9000 busted their asses and caught them playing fast and loose with doing the Right Thing, which for some reason they find it so very hard to do? I think they are trying to forget all about the YARNELL HILL FIRE DISASTER and they are counting the days until everyone else does as well.
And I’m pretty sure that if it weren’t for this blog, they would already be there except for special occasions like the 1, 5, 10, 25. 50 and 100 💯 year anniversaries that frankly won’t be remembered or cared about by very many people.
I’d love to see the NWCG have to answer to the families… who fought HARD ( and WON ) to make SURE there was a nationally-available staff ride learning product for Yarnell… and watch NWCG try to bullshit THEM about why that already-done-and-endorsed-by-NWCG product is not ‘available’ on their own public facing portal(s).
Yep. I’d love to see the NWCG have to face the families and watch what happens when they tell them they simply do NOT consider Yarnell to be a “significant wildland fire event”, as per their own published criteria for staff ride products.
I think you actually nailed the truth.
The NWCG simply does not WANT anyone ‘talking’ about Yarnell on any kind of ongoing basis… and any other petty reasons they might give for NOT including the already-done-and-fully-endorsed staff ride product in their learning library are simply bullshit.
Well…here is my epiphany moment from when I woke up this morning. “The Families” are in full support of the NWCG not making the Yarnell Hill Fire Staff Ride available to everyone on their website.
“The Families” have always been who the former Mrs. Eric Marsh and her posse say they are, meaning they are her friends and supporters.
Their staff ride, which they believe they own even though it was paid for by taxpayer money is being used by the powers that be in the way “The Families” want it to be used. And that is by a select group of WLF who take the course and agree with their production and if they don’t, they at least keep their opinions to themselves.
If it was put online through the NWCG Library Of Staff Rides, everyone could take the course and be free to not only critiquing how they created it, but to develop other more plausible alternatives to the company storyline and do so by using their own material and staff ride to do so.
Who would do such a thing? We would of course and we would be alone in doing so, but we have the talent, experience and brain power here on this blog to shred their fantasy fairy tale where the big bad fire appeared out of nowhere, took the crew because God called them home en masse and now they are where they are supposed to be because it was God’s will and so everything worked out fine in the end.
And they sure as hell don’t want anyone creating, publishing, or promoting any story other than that. This blog is the reason why the Yarnell Hill Fire Staff Ride is only being made available to a select few in order to promolgate “The Big Lie.”
And Joy complained about my distasteful tactics in this asymmetrical, unconventional war. We are fighting a superpower who has all of the conventional weapons in the control of both the State of Arizona and the federal government to reward their cronies and punish those whom they perceive to be their enemies.
And they perceive their enemies to be anyone who doesn’t buy into their story line and support the Eric Marsh Foundation and their goal to make him into one of the most respected WLF leaders in history who died a true American Heroes death trying to save his crew from a disaster that wasn’t of their own making.
I am at the point that I actually feel pity for the former Mrs. Eric Marsh and her posse of enablers, friends and supporters. I wouldn’t like planning every day for the rest of my life doing everything I could, to make sure the real lessons of the Yarnell Hill Fire aren’t recognized or accepted and therefore could be used to help save WLF lives in the future from a clear and present danger. And that danger is lurking out there waiting to strike again…for the fourth time in history.
And that is because once (The El Cariso Hotshots under Gordon King in 1966 on the Loop Fire) was an anomaly, twice (The Mormon Lake Hotshots under Tony Czak in 1976 on the Battlement Creek Fire) was a coincidence, but the third time (The Granite Mountain Hotshots under Eric Marsh in 2013 on the Yarnell Hill Fire) is definitely a pattern.
I hope they name the fourth fire in history that kills hotshots due to the criminally negligenne, reckless decisions and subsequent actions in honor of the person who will own it…”The Eric and Amanda Marsh Legacy Fire.” It will be a fitting tribute to those who will truly deserve the recognition and distinction.
I am a self taught semi skilled web master just as long as I don’t have to write code. If they ever give me access to all of their digitized Staff Ride material, I will be very tempted to build my very own YHF Disaster Alternative and Truthful Staff Ride in my own Lessons Kearned Toolbox Library for posterity. But…I’m pretty sure THEY already know all of that?
Teaching myself to become a webmaster was very hard because I had a student who was just like a goose and woke up in a new world everyday so it took several years.
My student also resembled a monkey trying to fuck a football for much of that time while trying to work with a computer, but I’m pretty fuckin’ good now…try me.
Good tidings to all. I did speak with Joy today–she is checking out the fire chief thing at Yarnell. I believe she would be an excellent chief and her credentials and long time familiarity with the Yarnell area and its people would add to the credentials she has established over the past 6 years. One thing the people of Yarnell could sleep well knowing she was on as chief–not of this allowing a small lightening strike or any other small fire left unattended as happened in 2013. She knows the terrain with over ten years hiking all about that region so she would know exactly how to get to a fire that needed to be attended to. Consider also, she barely escaped with her life during the 2013 wild fire that killed the GMHS crew. So she had plenty respect for wild land fires and would not be a balker to do the work necessary to protect the citizens. She is very up on defensible space and at my cabin there was right on top of getting the cabin properly fire safe. She also knows just about every wild land fire fighter and local fire personnel in Yarnell and surrounding communities and many even in Phoenix. Her managing skills are superb as well as her organizational abilities. The citizen would have no problem getting accurate and timely FOIA information from her. She has had the bad experience of trying to get FOIA’s, and with that it has her disgusted that so many Departments involving wild land fire work are so difficult to obtain information from. You can bet there would be no laxity on her part in supplying that information as required by law. So many seem to think they are above the law that handle FOIA’s, she is a stickler to observing the laws.
So I cast my vote for Joy as a grade A Fire Chief for Yarnell. I am certain many others in Yarnell would agree.
Joy has a web site involving the wild land fire situation–some who have visited there have given apologies to Joy. Certain people had slandered Joy saying they were afraid she would attack them. Yet once people knew Joy and attended to her site, they realized she could likely win the outstanding citizen of the decade award. I have witnessed her actions over about a decade. Her actions were always to get right in the thick of things when it comes to helping people. And I mean everything from pulling weeds for the elderly to distributing goods during the terrible loss of homes so many at Yarnell had.
McClain and Amanda do owe Joy an apology–their anger at her for staying in there to reveal all the facts she could muster doesn’t excuse their behaviour.
It has been a fiery day for me–I caught my telephone pole on fire–but then I did not stand there and watch it burn all night (such as did the Yarnell and Peeples Valley and Congress fire departments did while watching the lightning strike all night that triggered the fire that killed the GMHS crew) –I grabbed a bucket of water and promptly put it out. Grass is dry here but sparse and using the torch had started a miniature fire that spread to my pump telephone pole. The wind is a natural bellows and I was looking at a flaming bole at the base–and I could have used a garden hose as well.
So the stitch in time saves 9–well could have saved 19.
Update on Bret and Bruce–those investigators we thought did well to recommend the highest fine possible for the management the SFS did at Yarnell–Bruce and Bret moved on—well wouldn’t you know, you do not challenge the abilities of the men working a fire like Yarnell where it is a debacle worth the highest fine according to those investigators and give a truthful evaluation. Well what did it matter since the fine was paid from tax money moved from one hand to the other. The matter of course was the blight put on the actions of the SFS, albeit a good thing that Bret and Bruce did–evaluate in obvious truth–they are now out of that business of investigations. Hmmm. pda
WTKTT and Gary,
You definitely make valid points.
This is from a paper I am about to publish: “Wildfire fatalities continue to occur from the same causal factors. Staff Rides are a valuable asset in the “lessons learned” tool box to reduce them, however, when based on deceptive “investigations,” how valuable are those “lessons learned?” An overlooked statement: “ [they] should avoid being a recital of a single investigation report. Such reports rarely address the human factors that affect individual decision-making. … providing participants with a variety of information sources is important” [38]. (emphasis added) The YH Fire requires different “information sources” to be factual.”
Reference 38 is from the “NWCG: Wildland Fire leadership Development Program. The Staff Ride (2019). ( https:// http://www.fireleadership.gov/toolbox/staffride/index.html )
Speaking of ‘variety of information sources’….
Even the Yarnell Hill Fire Staff Ride Facilitator’s Guide ( as fully developed and endorsed by the NWCG ) refused to mention either the ADOSH investigation report OR the associated WFA report, even though the Wildland Fire Lessons Learned page for Yarnell still lists BOTH as valid ‘research’ documents with regards to the Yarnell Hill Fire.
And if the NWCG never had any intentions of making that final Yarnell Hill Fire Staff Ride product part of its library… the “Omna International” group that was contracted by NWCG and U.S. Forestry to actually DEVELOP the Yarnell HIll Staff Ride never got that memo.
Even now… “Omna International” is not only listing the Yarnell Hill Fire Staff Ride as one of their premier accomplishments ( on their home page, no less )… they are still listing it as one of their ‘Available Events’ that anyone can ‘schedule’.
From Omna International’s own “Available Events” page…
http://www.theomna.com/events.html
——————————————————
Mann Gulch Fire Staff Ride
South Canyon Fire Staff Ride
Dude Fire Staff Ride
Thirtymile Fire Staff Ride
Yarnell Hill Fire Staff Ride
——————————————————
And as for people “not getting the memo” that the Yarnell Hill Staff Ride product was headed for obscurity after it was finished…
…you can ( apparently ) count former Arizona State Forester Jeff Whitney on that list.
In an interview with the Prescott Daily Courier on April 29, 2016, the very week that another ‘dry run’ of the Yarnell Hill Staff Ride had just been performed, Whitney himself was hyping the ‘importance’ of it all as a “learning tool” for the entire WF industry, and also said that he expected it would be ‘conducted’ four times a year on an ongoing basis…
“Arizona Forster Jeff Whitney said he foresees the Yarnell Hill Fire being a learning tool for years to come, with as many as four staff rides a year conducted at the site.”
So somebody was bullshitting even “El Jefe”… while he was still actually working on it.
The Prescott Daily Courier
Article Title: Families, officials walk in final footsteps of the Hotshots
Published: April 29, 2016 6:02 a.m. – By Cindy Barks
http://dcourier.com/news/2016/apr/29/families-officials-walk-final-footsteps-hotshots/
From that article…
————————————————————————————-
PRESCOTT – When the State of Arizona and 12 families of fallen Granite Mountain Hotshots settled a wrongful death lawsuit in June 2015, the Arizona State Forestry Division agreed to do nine things.
Now, about 10 months later, a number of those points have been accomplished, and others are in the works, say officials with the State Forestry Division.
First on the list was a promise to conduct an eight-hour question-and-answer session with the Hotshot families to “review data and information and to answer questions posed by the families and their consultants/experts.”
Other points included the creation of “lessons learned” and “staff ride” documents to help prevent similar tragedies from happening in the future, as well as a number of steps toward improved training, technology, communications, and instruction on estate planning and family care plans.
Arizona State Forester Jeff Whitney points out that the staff ride process has been underway for months, and is expected to wrap up before the three-year mark of the Granite Mountain Hotshot tragedy (June 30, 2016).
Creation of a staff ride was a requirement of the Hotshot lawsuit settlement that was reached nearly a year ago (June 29, 2015).
The process also is integral to wildland firefighting, and was among the recommendations of the Yarnell Hill Fire Serious Accident Investigation that came out in September 2013.
As Whitney explains it, a staff ride is a multi-phase process that has its roots in the military. First comes a preliminary study of the incident or fire, then an extensive field study of the actual sites where the fire occurred, and finally, an opportunity to integrate the lessons learned from the fire into future firefighting efforts.
The draft staff ride document from April 2016 lists five goals. First among them: “Create a memorable learning experience that helps participants make better decisions supported by the application of recent and relevant history.”
For Whitney, who in 1990 was on the team battling the Payson-area Dude Fire during which six firefighters died, the “lessons-learned” aspect is crucial.
“How can we prevent this from happening?” he said. “It’s important work.”
Whitney came out of retirement in January 2015 to accept Gov. Doug Ducey’s appointment as director of the Arizona State Forestry Division. He was a part of the mediation that culminated with the June 2015 settlement of a wrongful death lawsuit that family members brought against the state.
He stresses that the staff ride is not intended to be an investigation into “what went wrong?” Rather, he said, the exercise puts wildland experts into the place of those who made the decisions during the fire.
“It’s important that we get some clarity around what occurred there,” Whitney said. “And it’s important that we try to do everything we possibly can to equip our current and future fire managers with more information, so they’re better able to do situation awareness and opportunity recognition.”
The 47-page April 2016 Yarnell Hill Staff Ride draft included a step-by-step schedule for the team. Among the defined stops: the Yarnell Fire Station; movement to the ridge top on Yarnell Hill; a “sense-making and communication” session at the top of the ridge; descending to the saddle, defined as “closing the window;” and the fatality site, which the document refers to as “realized ultimate reality.”
Along with background about the crew, the draft staff ride document includes situational information, and the tactical decisions that were made.
The document notes that participants in the exercise would be “tracing the route and decision-making of the (Granite Mountain Hotshots) and their colleagues as they faced a rapidly changing fire environment in an effort to manage the Yarnell Hill Fire.”
Whitney said the family involvement in the Yarnell Hill staff ride was somewhat unique, because of its place in the settlement agreement.
The 40 experts who participated this week came various agencies all over the country. Their feedback will go into the creation of the final staff ride document.
Whitney foresees the Yarnell Hill Fire being a learning tool for years to come, with as many as four staff rides a year conducted at the site. (He said access to the site is still being worked out).
Noting that staff rides usually take eight to 10 years to complete, Whitney said the Yarnell Hill exercise is well ahead of the norm.
“We’re going to have this done in three years,” he said. I’m extremely pleased with the progress to date. It redeems the commitment I made.”
———————————————————————————
WTKTT et al;
Part 1
IF I am correct and they, meaning Arizona State Forestry supported by the NWCG in general and the U.S. Forest Service in particular, do not intend to ever make the Yarnell Hill Staff Ride available in digitized format on-line in the NWCG Staff Ride Library, then you are missing the entire nuanced game they are playing. In other words, it is Check & Mate and you never even saw your opponent move their first pawn.
And like just about everything else you have been wrong about, it’s because you don’t understand, much less know how to play the game they play. I really shouldn’t use Chess analogies, because what they play really isn’t anything resembling chess.
So…I am going to make up a name for the game they have beat you at for the last six (6) years, let’s call it the “Bureaucratic Shell Game.”
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shell_game
And no matter how many times I tell you that they don’t actually have to do what you think they have to do based on our laws, rules and regulations unless you have the legal resources to sue them in federal court and have a federal judge rule your interpretation of what they should be doing is correct and even then you need to continually monitor them and periodically force them back into a court and prove to the judge they are violating his or her court orders, you always fall for their slight-of-hand tricks.
Of course I admire your commitment, belief, enthusiasm, values, ideals, morals, so on and so forth as a good citizen who believes in the rule of law and that public servants are duty bound to serve the public interest. So…I don’t want you to stop being you and fighting the good fight, I just want you to know when you are being fucked over and they aren’t even kissing you while they do it. This very same game is now being played out on a super sized grand scale never been seen before scale on the national level by the Trump Administration where they simply declare all of the federal laws that ostensibly govern our country don’t apply to them and if anyone thinks differently, they can hire a lawyer and sue them.in federal court. We as a nation are now waiting for that to happen and to find out if they will even follow the laws after federal judges order them to do so. Abd then we will find out if we are in a genuine and bonafide constitutional crisis or not? So far, they have done what they federal judges have ordered after they have lost in court, but that is certainly subject to change.
I truly don’t want this to sound insulting to you because I respect all of the features, capabilities and upgrades you were built with, but like all machines, you are incapable of computing nuanced thoughts, which is why in the end, no matter if you self replicate or not, you will never rule the world. We as humans will always be able to trick you because you live in a binary world of 1’s and 0’s, where the toggle switch is either off or on, there is good and bad, right and wrong, good guys versus bad guys and in the end…the good guys always win. I can tell you are an older model who was created when our world was…better.
You are like a child who I have told many times that there isn’t a Santa Claus that still believes there is in spite of all of the times that child has awoken early on Christmas morning and found their father eating the Christmas cookies they put out for Santa Claus in his underwear while their mother arranges the gifts around the tree that he just carried in from where they were hidden in the garage. You continue to believe and I think that is just ADORABLE! Naive…but very endearing and I have a great deal of respect for you because of those qualities.
You also don’t really understand how Staff Rides are conducted so here is the bottom line, Staff Rides are very expensive to put on because of they are very labor intensive and require the time and efforts of dozens of paid government employees to put them on in addition to the labor and efforts of quite a large number of “Subject Matter Exoerts” (SME) who were actually on the fire to staff all of the learning and discussion stations they call “stands.”
If these SME’s are government employees, you need them to get the permission of their supervisors in order for them to be gone for at least a week from their normal jobs, which can happen, but not a lot because their supervisors don’t really care about the success of your staff ride, they care about the work load they are responsible for and will be evaluated on at the end of the year. If they are retired, you have to get each one of them to donate their time to make your staff ride successful and if none of these people live in the immediate area, you need to either pay travel and per diem costs for them, or convince that same supervisor it is in their best interest to pay for those cost.
But in any case, you are going to need a “management code” that serves the same purpose as a credit card number and somebody on the other end of it that will actually process and then authorize everything to be paid for out of somebodies “hard” budget because Staff Rides aren’t like fires, there has to be real funds to pay for all of the travel vouchers, that are mailed to them with all kinds of receipts attached to them.
And if I understand why El Estupido isn’t the State Forester any more, it’s because he was really bad at doing budgeting and then following that budget to the tune of millions of dollars. Managers that continually (or sometimes just once) have budget shortfalls that somebody else has to make up for usually aren’t managers for very long.
That is why I got to go to the Battlement Creek Fire Staff Ride in spite of the fact that I was a giant pain-in-the-ass of the Staff Ride Coordinator Shawna Legarza. She needed me to stand at the point my fellow sawyer and two person backfire team member and I ignited our backfire from to describe what we did and what happened after that to individual groups of students who would come along periodically sheparded by course facilitators, all of who have to be paid, and who have to have their travel costs paid for as well.
I found out just how bad they needed me after I told them they could take their Staff Ride and shove it up their ass after the other Staff Ride committee members kept shitting on me every time I opened my mouth to say, “Wait a minute, it didn’t happen that way” or “ That isn’t right,” or “You have it all wrong.”
Especially since all of the other Staff Ride Committee members were high ranking FIRE Staff Officers from several different agencies across the country, several of whom were former Hotshot Crew bosses themselves…so they were definitely NOT impressed by my street creds, especially since I was part of an alien and much feared race to them…Special Agents. The only time they had ever had any contact with people like me was when they had been under an internal investigation forvsome seriuis wrong-doing, or at least had been accused of it. I wasn’t part of their tribe and as an outsider, they didn’t have any patience for me even if I would have shut the fuck up, which of course I didn’t do.
Once I figured all of that out, I called up my old buddies and said, “ Hey…do you want to meet me in Grand Junction where we can get drunk, have some laughs and take some walks down memory lane, all at the expense of the U. S. Forest Service?” And that was because I wasn’t going to that fuckin’ goat 🐐 ropin’ all by myself without some back up because there was ONE (1) really important thing I had learned while working in feral law enforcement.
If you even think there might be a gun fight or even some pushing, shoving and harsh language exchanged, take a bunch of guys, who all have a bunch of guns with you. We didn’t fuck around with playing fair…we played for keeps every time with every intention to, “Finish The Fight.” If you do that…you very rarely have to fight because even the worst hard asses piss on themselves when we showed up en masse. Patrol officers rarely get to pick the time and place of their gun fights, investigations usually get to plan theirs out in advance with an “Operations Plan”
Side Story…they interviewed a committed cop killer who had been stopped by an officer he didn’t kill, but he killed the next officer who stopped him. When he was asked, “Why didn’t you kill the first officer who stopped you? The convicted cop killer replied, “Because when I looked into his eyes, I knew he would kill me.” So I made a career out of always doing my very best to look like I had a plan to kill every mother fucker I came face to face with…dead, dead, dead, so dead that their mothers would puke when they saw what was left of them.
So anyway…of course my buddies said, “Fuck yes…got a management code?” And so I told Shawna she could count me in…IF she could get my old assistant crew boss (who had been a crew member on the Battlement Creek Fire) and who was the Helicopter Operations Manager on the Tongass National Forest in Southeast Alaska, and my fellow sawyer and backfire team member who was the Missoula Smokejumper Loft Foreman, to come with me. So Shawna called up their supervisors and persuaded them to send Bill and Hardy to Grand Junction and pay for all of their travel and per diem costs out of her budget, just because I wanted some fuckin’ back up and it was very sweet of her to do that for me. But then again…I know she had explicit orders to put up with my bullshit and get me to that staff ride from way up her chain-of-command and Shawna is above all else…a very good soldier.
Side Note; You can see photos of both Bill and Hardy here with me standing in front of the Grand Valley Fire Department Battlement Creek Memorial along I-70, with some photos of them from back in the day fighting fire here,
http://ourfiregods.com/happyjackhotshots.html
The Grand County Fire Department and the communities they serve are almost the only people who gave a fuck about what happened on the Battlement Creek Fire for 30 years until the U,S. Forest Service came up with this Staff Ride idea, but those people never stopped remembering or caring…God Bless Them.
You wrote, Even now… “Omna International” is not only listing the Yarnell Hill Fire Staff Ride as one of their premier accomplishments ( on their home page, no less )… they are still listing it as one of their ‘Available Events’ that anyone can ‘schedule’.
Part 2
Here are just some of the things “anyone” who wants to schedule a Yarnell Hill Fire Staff Ride needs;
1. A recognized land management agency who has wildfire management as their core mission or is affiliated with one who does. And who is in every situation I can think of…already a member of the National Wildfire Coordinating Group to be the sponsoring agency of said staff ride.
2. A Staff Ride Coordinator.
3. A Staff Ride Committee.
4. A “ management code” because almost everyone you ask, “ Hey…do you want to…..?”, you have to be prepared to recite it every time someone replies, “Sure…do you have a management code?”
5. Funding to pay for lots of things, even if everybody who participates either as a facilitator, SME, student, instructor, or grunt has their own management code and authorization to use it. FYI…grunts set up the signs, pick up people at the airport, set up the conference room, drive the vans that take people to the field exercise and at least a thousand other tasks that need to be done before, during and after every staff ride.
6. Funding to pay for at least a thousand other costs associated with sponsoring every staff ride before, during and after the event such as paying for the conference room where your meetings, tye training sessions, vans to transport everyone around with, banquet and “after action” session that will accomodate about 100 to 150 people.
7. Highly respected and recognized guest speakers in the wildfire management field to be lecturers during different parts of the staff ride. Dr. Putnam attended the staff ride I went on both as an SME, because he had been on the fire as a ‘single resource Smokejumper-at-large” who served as a “sector boss” to fill out the original Battlement Creek Fire Team and he was a guest speaker. At the staff ride I attended, they went around the room to every attendee and expected them to stand up, introduce themselves, and state why they came, and what they got out of the exercise. That certainly included myself as a SME. Shawna didn’t place any restrictions on what I said either to the groups of students who cycled through my ‘stand” or on what I said during my after dinner speech and I told it exactly how it happened, as did Dr. Putnam on his stand and during his official presentation speech. But of course whatever we said wasn’t memorialized and so it was either ignored, or soon forgotten by everyone outside of hearing what we said in that moment. And FYI…that took awhile since there were about 150 people in attendance although many just stood up and said I agree with what he/she said since most people attended in groups from common agencies that dinner and speech program took several hours. The table Bill, Hardy and I sat at was shared by a contingent of high ranking officers from the Los Angeles Fire Department. One interesting side note, most of the “grunts” who worked on the staff ride were members of either Shawna’s hotshot crew, the San Juan (National Forest) Hotshots or the current Mormon Lake Hotshot Crew who both attended in large groups. I don’t know if everyone from both crews were there, but there was a lot of them there. It was a big deal to have current Mormon Lake Hotshots there because their home district on the Coconino still lives the Battlement Creek Fire Disaster as part of their daily lives, in part because of their in- house memorial almost everyone passes on a daily basis. That fire isn’t ancient history there. And FYI…if you DON’T have two entire hotshot crews to use as grunts, good luck findinding all of the grunts you are going to need to put on a successful staff ride. The driver who was assigned to the van that was put at the disposal of Bill, Hardy and I for sight seeing and our private trip to the memorial sites at the Grand Junction Airport, the actual fire scar, and the Grand Mesa Fire Department one on I-70 was a current Mormon Lake Squad Boss.Shawna was a very gracious hostess who even took the three of us out to lunch and she bought while we told her we didn’t like a fuckin’ thing about how they were putting on the staff ride. Bill and I had to take Hardy outside half way through the lunch and talk him off the ledge because he was really pissed off, wheras I had had months to calm down and Bill just had a “fuck it…let’s just have a good time while we are here attitude.” Of course Hardy had worked for years and had been good friends with the “single resource Smokejumper” who had served as the Official Scapegoat, Fall Guy, and Sacrificial Lamb sector boss who had been assigned all of the blame for everyone else who fucked up on the fire and he went to his death as a broken hearted man who had been emotionally destroyed by the unfair blame that he had endured. So to Hardy…it was even more personal than it was to me, whereas Bill didn’t give a fuck in general he had see too much bullshit in his U.S. Forest Service career to let that nonsense get in the way of our three man reunion party and fuck off week. Bill always had been a party animal…even by hotshot standards.
8. I’m tired of typing on this post, just take my word for it, you need a really big pool of people to draw from to be students, SME’s, facilitators, and grunts and a really big pot of money to pay for lots of people and things. Most WLF who are at the middle grade and UP, in addition to “being somebody” from wherever they are from, might get to go to ONE (1) staff ride during their entire career if they are lucky and if they have it as part of their Training Plan for a few decades. I think the average staff ride costs several hundred thousand dollars of tax payer money once all expenses including lost time for wages is calculated in. The only criticism I have ever heard about Staff Rides is that they aren’t very cost effective in terms of their “cost to benefit” ratio since they reach only a very small numbers of trainees in a world that is starved for training dollars since training is the first thing that always gets cut out of every budget.
Anyway. I’m tired of typing on one of my trademarked Mother Of All Posts (MOAP) But I did cut and paste what Staff Ride facilitators need to be ready to do.
I am also going to find and probably cut and pasted an exempt from my book that is in a very rough draft that describes most of my own staff ride experience so you can kind of get an idea of what mine was like if you want to know. I think there is some serious misconceptions or misunderstandings of what a staff ride entails. There just isn’t any place for people like Joy or Sonny on a staff ride.. I say that because Joy has always thought she should have been invited to the first one…and every one after that. But…that just isn’t how things work in your government. Nobody who is anybody cares what Joy or Sonny experienced, saw or think about what they saw or experienced on the Yarnell Hill Fire.
So…to sum up HAL 9000, when El Jefe and Omna International say’s “anyone” can schedule a Yarnell Hill Fire Staff Ride…they didn’t mean you…or me. It’s just all part of the grand charade, you aren’t supposed to take most of what they say seriously, they are just giving the public a reach-a-round so they can feel good about the way all of their tax dollars being spent on Staff Rides.
Facilitator Tips
Individuals who plan to facilitate a staff ride should read the Wildland Fire Staff Ride Guide prior to conducting the event. This guide provides a thorough explanation of the logistical and instructional considerations for a successful event.
The following tips have been collected from facilitators of recent staff rides and should be considered a supplement to the complete Staff Ride guide. If you have a suggestion or tip, please submit it through the staff ride feedback feature.
Prior to the staff ride there are several preparation actions a facilitator should do:
Research a variety of information sources and become well-versed on the incident in order to be able to answer questions from participants.
Walk the ground at least once with all support cadre so that you know where the stands are and can accurately orient participants when you take the entire group to the site.
Provide “read-ahead” suggestions, the event schedule, and travel directions to the participants at least two to three weeks in advance.
While an investigation report is a primary source of information, it should not be the only source of information that is used. Facilitators are encouraged to rent and watch the movie Courage Under Fire. Although this movie is a fictional drama, it provides a good perspective on the barriers that can be encountered during an incident investigation.
During the staff ride some facilitation techniques to consider include:
Use a sand table or other terrain model to provide an orientation of the site and sequence of events prior to the start of the actual field visit.
If you have a large number of participants, break them into smaller conference groups of 10-12 individuals each. Provide a knowledgeable conference group leader for each of these smaller groups with an overall facilitator to coordinate movement and adherence to planned timeframes.
Manage the group by providing activity and departure time cues at the start of each “stand.”
Orient the group to key geographic features and review relevant events at the start of each “stand” so participants can build the overall picture of the incident in their mind.
Don’t get caught up in being a narrator–encourage group discussion, interaction, and debate. Tactical decision games (TDGS) are one method to do that. Facilitators should feel free to use any method that they are comfortable with. If you do use the TDGS, hand them out to the participants as you leave the “stand” – that is prior to the “stand” where the participants will respond to them. This will allow participants time to think about the dilemma.
Other facilitation methods to encourage interaction include presentations by first-hand witnessess from the incident, open-ended discussion questions designed for your target audience, and assigned participant briefings that require pre-study research.
Be sure to allow some discretionary time for participants to do some exploring on their own sometime during the staff ride.
It is very easy to run short of time at the end of the day. Make sure to save enough time at the end of the event for a final integration, allowing individuals to discuss and share their “takeaways” from their assessment of the event.
Have fun with the group.
FYI…I don’t want anyone to ever make the mistake of thinking Shawna Legarza is where she is at because she is a woman. Shawna is where she is at because she is really smart, really tough, she is a very good soldier, and she has exceptional command presence in spite of the fact she is only about 5 feet tall and she is a woman.
Shawna took all of the bullshit I threw at her and in the end she said, “You are more than welcome to have your opinion about what happened on the Battlement Creek Fire and express it to whom ever you would like to however you would like to express it, but for the purposes of this staff ride, we are going to follow the official investigative report.”
And by golly…I really respected her for how she told me and the others which included Dr. Putnam to fuck off. And she was performing in a position that normally would have been way over her pay grade as “just” a hotshot crew boss at the time.
Oh…and one more thing. The “cost to benefit” ratio is exactly why the YHF Staff Ride SHOULD be made available on-line for everyone to benefit from. It is possible and they intend WLF to be able to “attend” Staff Rides in the virtual cyber world and thereby increasing their cost to benefit ratio exponentially and thereby justify the enormous expense of creating them.
It is what I consider it be a CRIMINAL offense NOT to put the YHF Staff Ride on-line and is a real abuse of the power that is ENTRUSTED to the public servants who have made that decision, if that is in fact what they have done.
I didn’t even notice it wasn’t on the list the other day when I published the staff ride library link, WTKTT did. I have always just assumed the reason it wasn’t there yet, was because they were still finalizing it with their beta rides, whatever a beta ride is? Actually…I think I do know, Beta Rides are used to work out the bugs and kinks, but I think that window has now closed and it is way past time for it to be on-line along with all of the other Staff Rides that cost a small fortune in tax dollars to create.
Oh…and I was still working when I was first asked to participate on the Battlement Creek Fire Staff Ride. But since I was on the committee for several months before I finally got tired of those assholes taking turns shitting on me every time I said something and finally told them to take their staff ride and shove it up theirs asses. But…I was retired by the time the very first staff ride was put on and so I attended that as a retiree.
Anyway…the funny part of the story is when Shawna Legarza called up my supervisor, who was the Special Agent -in-Charge (SAC) for BLM Arizona (but all of us worked for the BLM Washington D.C. Office of Law Enforcement & Security) and convinced him it was in his best interest as the SAC to let his ASAC participate not only as a committee member for their staff ride but as a Subject Matter Expert as well.
Fortunately my supervisor and I went way back and so he just walked into my office one day with a puzzled look on his face to tell me about the strange telephone call he had gotten from someone named Shawna Legarza about a disaster fire from some 30 years earlier. And after I told him what was going on, he just said, “Yeah sure…call her back and tell her you can participate if that’s something you want to do and I will pay for it out of our budget if need be…no problem.”
But…that isn’t the response you will get from most supervisors when you ask them to take man hours or dollars out of THEIR program or budget in order to make your staff ride a success, even if the supervisors you call work for FIRE. It’s a dog eat dog world out there.
Actually…I told that story a little off, the very first person to talk to my supervisor about my help on their staff ride even before Shawna did, was the BLM Arizona FMO to lay the foundation for Shawna’s follow up call.
Clarification,
The Committee I am referring to was Shawna’s original staff ride development committee. That was the committee that developed the entire staff ride from nothing. That would have been the time to tell the truth, but none of those assholes were the slight bit interested in telling the truth. Although Shawna made me feel really good with the wrap-a-round sgphe gave me because she can really turn on the charm and she you is highly trained to, “Be alert. Keep calm. Think clearly. Act decisively.” and fuck you over every which way but loose with a smile on her face while never losing her cool 😎 so that in the end, you thank her for such s pleasant experience when she finally says, “Have a nice day!”
“I mean…say what you want about the tenets of National Socialism Dude, at least its an ethos.”
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=b_29yvYpf4w
I am so embarrassed 😞! Now that I think about it, maybe the plan all along was for Shawna to make me feel good while at the same time, her posse of former hotshot crew bosses beat me black and blue with the old bar soap in the sock treatment?
What a dumbass I was.
Whoops, I called what Shawna gave me a wrap-a-round in the previous post rather than using what she gave me the correct name, which is a reach-a-round. And if you don’t know what a reach-a-round is…forget I even used that term.
And by “Have a nice day.” I mean it to sound like some police officers do so that many police departments have made it a violation of departmental policy to ever say that to anyone after they finish their contact because they way in which they say it…can make people explode with anger and that gives the officers an excuse to arrest them or at least be able to laugh at them because the citizens go ape shit crazy on the officers dash cameras.
And my rough draft of the chapter about the Battlement Creek Fire Staff Ride was even rougher than I remember it and so I am going to try and work on it some and then post it for my adoring readers who just can’t wait for my tome to be finished and published. And that is because, in the final analysis, my experience on that on that staff ride was the reason I started writing a book in the first place. So it’s kinda important to me.
And just in case I got a little oblique there for my own good, I think Shawna made it to where she is at because she’s the whole package, a sycophant for management who was always willing to carry their AND she was a woman.
I know that there were many men who had the same damning predilection for betraying their values and principles in exchange for their professional advancement, but what put Shawna over the top in the end is that she was willing to do those things AND she checked the minority box.
Shawna charmed everyone she came into contact with so she could make her betrayal of the WLF on the fire line appear to be legitimate. She fucked me over. She fucked Ted over. And she fucked every one on my crew over and the Mormon Lake Hotshot Crew over.
Shawna betrayed herself and every one else she had to do as she sold her soul so that some day she would get the ultimate payoff to go as high as she could.
And in her case, it ended really high up as the Washington Office Director of Aviation and Fire Management. Promotions, baby. That’s how it works.
Shawna Legarza and all of the people like her (Mike Dudley) as truly despicable human beings.
And just in case I got a little oblique there for my own good, I think Shawna made it to where she is at because she’s the whole package, a sycophant for management who was always willing to carry their “water” AND she was a woman.
Shawna Legarza and all of the people like her (Mike Dudley) “are” truly despicable human beings.
Promotions above a certain level that is. And that “level” is normally defined as “field operations” and whatever that entails and duties that fit into that general job description depending on whatever the specific personnel series you want to talk about from Forestry Technician to Special Agent. The key is always the percentage of the job that is based on “field operations” which was a job description I never made it past. I was offered the prize, but at the critical moment in my career, I turned it down and I turned States evidence and went into the witness protection program instead. 🙂
Which by the way, was for the last 15 years of my career. I was never promoted again for the last 15 years I spent on the job.
But the good news is, I had plenty of time to rack up the within grade step increases and so I retired as a Step 8. There are only a only a total of 10 steps within each GS Grade. And the system is designed to take you an entire career (30 years) to earn all 10 steps even if you are never promoted up another grade again.
I was able to leap from a Step 1 to a final Step 8 over just 15 years because I received four (4) Quality Step Increases which is a really big award because each QSI bumps you up one step.
Every old time employee out there who reads this knows that four QSI’s over 15 years is a really big deal since each step is worth as much as $100,000 (or more) during the average career and subsequent retirement depending on lots of factors like your final hourly wage and how long you live.
15 fuckin’ years without ever being promoted again because I was blackballed by management. Life can be a real bitch (non gender specific) and then you die..
But…I have already written wayyyyy to much. 🙂
A GS-13 Step 8 that is.
And yes…I applied for lots of GS-14 jobs during that 15 year period. Management liked to consistently place me in the top 3 for the final interview just so they could fuck me over in the end. And I liked to keep applying for those jobs, and consistently making the top three and getting fucked over in the end just because I wanted them to know I wouldn’t ever give up.
By the end…most top managers didn’t even know why they were supposed to fuck me over because of the natural retirements of the older managers…they just did it because top management had been doing it for so many year and the reason didn’t matter any more.
And just FYI, most employees go for their entire careers without ever getting even one (1) QSI.
Especially those employees who work for the U.S. Forest Service. That is one of the cheapest fuckin’ agencies out there.
So…the bottom line is, go to work for the BLM if you can…you just have to be willing to work for an agency that in general lacks a moral center.
But…there are lots of upsides in the equation, they are a lot more generous with the QSI ‘s for one thing. 🙂
I bet I never would have gotten even one QSI myself if I had stayed with the USFS for my entire career.
But…I was very well aware of that fact (although not to the extent of it or just how bad it was) before I ever applied to the BLM for a job in the first place.
So…what does that say about me? Wait, don’t answer that…it was a rhetorical question.
Fuck me…how on earth did I ever start down this road? Never mind.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=OjYoNL4g5VgP
I mean…it’s not that I am counting or anything, well…I guess I just did.
But I went from a GS-3 Step 1 to a GS-13 in the first half of my career, which was 15 years.
And then I remained a GS-13 for the entire second half of my career, which was 15 years. I really fucked up someplace.
Actually, I remember that place in time so vividly…it’s like it just happened this morning.
But everyone who knows me well already knows the story. And if you don’t know the story by now…it doesn’t matter any more. 🙂
Although everyone who has participated in this thread for any length of time…knows that a very large portion of the U.S. Forest Service also lacks a moral center. So…I guess you just pick your poison and hope for the best.
All in all…I don’t have any complaints about how my career went, but I sometimes bitch (non gender specific) anyway just to stay in practice.
Okay…just one more little house cleaning chore regarding my entire somewhat bizarre written journey today.
I have written this before several years ago, but just as a refresher in case you aren’t current on all of my posts, the reason Shawna had strict orders to get me to the Battlement Creek Fire Staff Ride had absolutely nothing to do with my manning the training station or “stand” that I did. Staff Rides are designed to be fully functional without any Subject Matter Experts on scene, SME’s, who were actually on the fire are just nice to have if they happen to be available.
The reason Shawna had orders to get me to the staff ride if at all possible, was because one of my very closest friends at the time was the Director Of Fire Management and Aviation for Region 5, California and the Pacific Islands.
And as such, he was very influential in the FIRE world because his budget was bigger than all of the other nine regions budgets were…combined.
Anyway, this guy (Ed) had also been a hotshot crew boss in his youth on the Coconino National Forest, (the Blue Ridge Hotshots) as well and we were buddies for years while we both worked on the Santa Fe.
So…this same guy had been the Incident Commander on the Dude Fire Disaster so he had some PTSD demons of his own to deal with. And he thought that I had some PTSD issues as well from the Battlement Creek Fire Disaster, but he was wrong about that…I just had some anger management issues that were residual from the fire and living in my head rent free that he and I had discussed over the years…you know, mostly when we had been drinking and bullshitting each other.
Our fire gods had specifically ordered us not to give a fuck about what happened to the Mormon Lake Hotshots…so we didn’t. It may seen odd given how things are done today, but after one meeting with Bill Buck we first got home, the fire was never discussed by any of us ever again. and that included within our own crew at our home base.
It was like it had never even happened. For one thing, they had us mopping up the area where those guys had been killed the very next day. I can still vividly remember the brightly colored flagging that fluttered in the breeze that marked where each body had laid just a few hours earlier in the harsh glare of the sun.
It was an absolutely beautiful day with crystal clear blue skies, bright sunshine and a bengal breeze. The huge black scar of the fire and it’s fingers melted slowly into the vibrant green of the valley stretching below us all of the way down to the Grand Valley in the distance.
Anyway…he thought I needed to go to the staff ride as part of my healing process, but I just wanted to go to have a few laughs with my old buddies and take some walks down memory lane. But this same guy called in a favor and got his counterpart for Region 4, the Intermountain Region to tell Shawna to put up with my bullshit if it meant getting me to the staff ride as an SME.
Ed said I needed to go “for the kids on the fire line today.” And so I did…end of story. But in the end…I failed the kids on the fire line today because I couldn’t convince them that they needed to tell the truth about what really happened on the fire. So…
>> Gary Olson said…
>>
>> …it is way past time for it ( the Yarnell Hill Staff
>> Ride digital prodcut ) to be on-line along with
>> all of the other Staff Rides that cost a small
>> fortune in tax dollars to create.
It already IS. Has been for quite some time.
Just not where it ( normally ) SHOULD be… and THAT is what remains ‘bizarre’.
Thanks to John Dougherty and InvestigativeMEDIA… the actual ‘digitial product’ was obtained through a valid Open Records Request, and has always been sitting online ( in all of its bullshit glory ) at the following PUBLIC location(s)…
The 2013 Yarnell Hill Fire Staff Ride Facilitator’s Guide…
https://www.dropbox.com/s/m1etsyqrn1kt211/Yarnell%20Facilitator%20Guide.pdf?dl=0
Special version of the YHF Staff Ride Facilitator’s guide used for the ‘Family Input’ trial staff ride that took place on April 5, 2016…..
https://www.dropbox.com/s/j3pa53281pl6m9p/April%20Staff%20Ride%20Guide.pdf?dl=0
So ‘they’ can’t ever say it doesn’t exist or was never finished.. The only thing that remains to be learned is why ‘they’ are not PUBLISHING it and making it truly ‘available’ along with all the other staff ride products already bought-and-paid-for with taxpayer dollars.
No kidding…you are right once again, the entire staff rude is there. I guess they are betting on the fact hardly anyone knows it’s there? Otherwise, why not just go ahead and put it on line with all of the other Staff Rides in the library?
The staff ride sounds like a stiff ride. Stiff the taxpayer and play the game called house wins every time.
Gary gets it right and gives us the truth. Yes some claim to win after standing up to the juggernaut grant their heart doesn’t quit from the hassle and –after perhaps twenty plus years in courts and expending bundles of money. Justice is biased to those with the treasure and government has the bundle. If you have a good lawyer they have 150 to combine heads to defeat you and certain your delays will run into years and your hair will grey.
So yes, Gary knows the game–and we know the truth. Perhaps that is enough just to watch a few squirm–likely as far as our efforts will do. But that gives us a smile and to know that a few of the children and Moms and Dads and other friends and concerned people get the facts adds to the good citizen books.
And of course … the link is kinda important
( https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2019/04/why-accidents-like-notre-dame-fire-happen/587956/?utm_source=pocket-newtab )
RTS,
This article discusses theories that seem to support my positions on the 10, the 18, and LCES and undermine what you so strongly believe and that is all of those rules are important.
This article also appears to me to bolster one of the key criticism our critics have of our thread and our opinion of the SAIR written by the SAIT.
So…I’m curious as to why you would post this article and what it’s salient points are that you like?
What I got from it was RTS was saying have a duckey day😀
🌴It had both viewpoints is my takeaway🌴
🌞 🌞 🌞
Have the best day ever Gary😇🙏👍💪🙌🔥
Oh yeah Gary
Lets use our emoticons to tell a story
😶 (quiet for years)
🙌 (Gave it to God)
🙈🙉🙊 (the attitude of locals and county and state and federal)
🍀Irish God(s) shine on Tex🍀 ( Sonny always has been the shining light in this as he told me this day June 30, 2013.. “we gotta get the hell out of here”…I would not have been able to gather data all these years had he not kept at it that day…
The story is out in certain areas…some coroners know it…there is no turning back now…Gary, there is no joy in doing this but its the hardest thing to ever do knowing the whole enchilada.
😞
Well okay then…tell me already.
Reply to Joy Collura post on April 30, 2019 at 10:17 am
>> Joy Collura said…
>>
>> The story is out in certain areas… some coroners know it…
Coroners?
Well… if that doesn’t make a person sit up, pay attention, and say “Holy, coverups, batman!”…I guess nothing would.
Are you saying that even the ‘autopsy reports’ that were released ( including, perhaps, the ‘drug testing’ results? ) were… somehow…
What’s the right word?… “incomplete”?
Yes…I think it has two take-away points, both of which are antithetical to beliefs that RTS has previously stated. And I hope you have a ball of yarn day.🧶
Gary,
I think the author is fairly accurate on the fact that accidents and catastrophes like wildland fire fatalities are inevitable and a “part of life” as he states.
You’re going to have to be more specific on what you believe are “two take-away points, both of which are antithetical to beliefs that RTS has previously stated.”
Well..you answered my question by stating, “I think the author is fairly accurate on the fact that accidents and catastrophes like wildland fire fatalities are inevitable and a “part of life” as he states.”
And of course that is a philosophy shared by Dr. Putnam as well and I used to believe it also. But during the past 6 years as I have for the first time in my life really thought about WLF safety, especially every hotshot death on the Loop, Battlement Creek, South Canyon and Yarnell Hill Fires, I have come to realize that none of those deaths were an accident.
All of those deaths were caused by conscious decisions followed by subsequent deliberate actions and therefore were 100 % preventable deaths had four men who were in charge followed the standardized and universally accepted WLF safety rules.
And as I have stated before, I would bet the death of Brian Hughes of the Arrowhead Hotshots on the Ferguson Fire was preventable had best practices and standard safety protocols been followed such as the proper use of a spotter. I think the other hotshot deaths (I think there were two) in recent years from tree strikes may also been preventable had established safety procedures been properly followed.
I recall another death in recent years of a highly experienced smokejumper who was killed by a falling widow maker from a tree he was cutting down on a small fire and he wasn’t even wearing his hard hat. Which is exactly the kind of things smokejumpers do because they are so cool, the normal rules that govern most WLF just don’t apply to them.
Anyway, I have lost track of what I thought you thought, but here are the two salient points I was referring to.
1. Our very attempts to stave off disaster by introducing safety systems ultimately increase the overall complexity of the systems, ensuring that some unpredictable outcome will rear its ugly head no matter what.
And that is how I think of WLF safety rules to a great extent. And for others out there, I can tell you that all of the rules came into place after firefighters were killed on fires, they then made a rule that you they shouldn’t do that any more.
And it seems to me I have argued against all of the rules since Day 1 and you have argued for all of the rules since Day 1. For example, I think everything that needs to be covered is covered in the 10 Standard Firefighting Orders and the 18 Situations That Shout Watch Out should be abolished because they are unnecessary, redundant and in some cases just plain silly that were taught to me by cartoon characters.
I never needed a cartoon character to teach me that if you feel like taking a nap near the fire line, then that is a situation that shouts “Watch Out”. I would have hoped that if I had been the kind of WLF who needed to be told not to take naps near the fireline, or naps on fires anywhere, rather than teach me not to do that by making learn a rule against doing so by rote, they would just have made me seek other employment by firing me instead.
I know without knowing it, that the rule came into effect because somebody was killed because they were taking a nap near the fire line. In what parallel universe do WLF take naps while on the fire line anyway? I mean, hotshots often accidentally fall asleep for short naps during short breaks while cutting fireline because they have been awake for a couple of days but that is under the watchful eyes of crew or squad bosses and while sitting in tool order with everyone else.
Thankfully, BLM Alaska State Director Tom Allen, who was either co-chair to BLM Arizona State Director Les Rosenkrance or his deputy of the SAIT for the South Canyon Fire Disaster decided that WLF had enough rules and making more of them wasn’t the way to go, but to instead re-emphasize the rules that were already in place. I think they should just add a number 11 to the 10 standard rules.
11. Do not fight wildfire while you have your head up your ass.
2. What makes the Boeing disaster so frustrating is the relative obviousness of the problem in retrospect. Psychologists and economists have a term for this; it’s called “hindsight bias,” the tendency to see causes of prior events as obvious and predictable, even when the world had no clue leading up to them.
And like I said, I have lost track of where you are at on this, but that was what our detractors have accused us of since Day 1 and how the SAIT excused Marsh and Steed in their SAIR. They said we only knew it was a bad idea to hike down that chimney in front of a racing wild fire because of hindsight bias. And it looked like a reasonable decision to them and something they would have done as well because the Helms’ property looked “so close.”
I’m sorry, but that is simply not true. I know they shouldn’t have hiked down that chimney at any time mush less in front of a racing wild fire because everybody knows that is one of the worst things you can do on a wildfire. There was one of the widows who said her husband had told her that no one should ever go down a chimney, chute or canyon on a fire while they were deer hunting. The crew knew not to do that, they knew they were wrong, most, if not all of them didn’t want to go down that chimney. We know Steed argued against that idea three times.
There are many other professions out there that routinely kill their workers such as police and structural firefighters. Which other profession make up silly rules that are taught by cartoon characters every time they have some one killed on the job?
I mean…there have been cases where police officers have been shot in the head while either sitting in their cruisers asleep or doing paperwork at night. Did any police departments ever make up a rule that said, “If you feel like taking a nap while sitting upright in your patrol car at night…that is a situation that Shouts Watch Out!”
Nope.
You just can’t make up a rule to cover every possible way a WLF can get killed on a fire and for decades, we as an industry tried to do that. I guess I am of the Paul Gleason school of thought on speed because he made up a new rule whereas I just want to eliminate rules and do like Tom Allen said, re-emphasize teaching the basics which I thin are covered in the 10.
And just FYI to others out there, for most of my time as a hotshot there were just “13 Situations That Shouted Watch Out” and then over time they added five more, but I’m pretty sure they didn’t save any lives by doing so. It just made some managers feel better because they were able to say they adderessed the problem by writing new code to be programmed into the heads of WLF.
In fact, (I have posted this link before) I am of the Sgt. Phil Esterhaus School Of Thought who starred in my favorite training videos for the entire time I was majoring in Criminal Justice in college…”Hill Street Blues.”
Therefore, I think there should just be ONE (1) wild land firefighter rule, “Let’s Be Careful Out There.”
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=_pIkkzDagsY
Everything contained in the 10, the 18 and even Paul Gleason’s LCES should be hammered over and over again in wild land firefighter beginning, intermediate and advanced and in-service training courses, but not made into rules that need to be routinely memorized by rote.
I don’t know how they came up with this number exactly, but the instructor staff at the Federal Law Enforcement Training Center in Georgia like to tell their classes that they are responsible for teaching 1000 separate and specific things that have been identified to those who attend FLETC.
Even those who create and maintain the obsessively anal retentive and highly structured separate training programs at FLETC don’t try to create safety lists of things for students to learn to recite by rote.
They just hammer those things into their students heads over and over again and then they test on what they hammered over and over again and hammer it home one more time as they go over the weekly tests.
In other words, I think concentrating on making WLF specifically memorize the following rules is condescending, juvenile, insulting, comical, repetitive, and most importantly ignores other equally important basic WLF protocols while overemphasizing these select few simply because they were identified as being the primary causal factors in what otherwise were random deaths through what I think was probably an oversimplification of what really happened since no serious incident is ever the result of only one or two things but rather a series of poor choices resulting from a domino, cascading and Swiss Cheese effect many factors that are intertwined and inseparable.
Fire not scouted and sized up.
In country not seen in daylight.
Safety zones and escape routes not identified.
Unfamiliar with weather and local factors influencing fire behavior.
Uninformed on strategy, tactics, and hazards.
Instructions and assignments not clear.
No communication link between crew members and supervisors.
Constructing line without safe anchor point.
Building line downhill with fire below.
Attempting frontal assault on fire.
Unburned fuel between you and the fire.
Cannot see main fire, not in contact with anyone who can.
On a hillside where rolling material can ignite fuel below.
Weather gets hotter and drier.
Wind increases and/or changes direction.
Getting frequent spot fires across line.
Terrain or fuels make escape to safety zones difficult.
Feel like taking a nap near fire-line
But…if I was King For a Day I might keep the 10 Standard Firefighting Rukes just for old times sake.
Keep informed on fire weather conditions and forecasts.
Know what your fire is doing at all times.
Base all actions on current and expected behavior of the fire.
Identify escape routes and safety zones and make them known.
Post a lookout where there is possible danger
Be alert. Keep calm. Think clearly. Act decisively.
Maintain prompt communication with your forces, your supervisor, and adjoining forces.
Give clear instructions and insure they are understood
Maintain control of your forces at all times.
Fight fire aggressively, having provided for safety first
But seriously, do you think we really need to remind WLF supervisors they must “Be alert. Keep calm. Think clearly. Act decisively” and the nine others rules?
Or do you think we need to find new supervisions who don’t need lists to remind them they must, “Be alert. Keep calm. Think clearly. Act decisively?”
But most importantly, what I have learned over the past six (6) years in addition to what I already knew. is that I can’t believe or accept anything that is taught on this web site because if you lie to me once, I will always be looking for the next lie.
And that’s a real fuckin’ shame.
https://www.fireleadership.gov/toolbox/staffride/main_library.html
And of course I don’t know how widespread this belief is now, or even when I was on the fire line, but…I was under the impression from others who were wiser and more experienced than I was that all of the rules weren’t for the benefit of wild land firefighters.
I was taught that the rules were for the benefit of wild land firefighting management because whenever somebody was killed or seriously injured, they could go down the list an say it happened because they violated this rule or that rule, so nothing was management or the agency’s fault, and so blame the individual firefighter because we told them not to do that.
I now think that perception that the rules were just a CYA for management wasn’t completely fair and accurate, but I do think there is some truth to it.
It’s like everything…it’s complicated and heavily nuanced. And I am often conflicted and always happy I’m not in charge of anything anymore since I can just throw things against the wall to see what sticks without any real life consequences for getting it wrong.
Oh…and one more thing. The 1000 individual, distinct and separate tasks or things that FLETC says they have to teach every cadet, is just for the entry level non agency specific general course which is called “Police Training.” The number of things to teach and know goes up exponentially from that number for every advanced course after that one. But still…there are no lists to memorize by rote other than keep your head out of your ass while on the job.
Reply to Gary Olson post on
May 1, 2019 at 11:51 am
>> Gay Olson said…
>>
>> But most importantly, what I have learned
>> over the past six (6) years in addition to
>> what I already knew. is that I can’t believe
>> or accept anything that is taught on this
>> web site because if you lie to me once,
>> I will always be looking for the next lie.
>>
>> And that’s a real fuckin’ shame.
>>
>> https://www.fireleadership.gov/toolbox/staffride/main_library.html
From that page… the ‘Library’ to pick from…
——————————————————
– 1910 Idaho Fire
– Bar Harbor Fire
– Battlement Creek Fire
– Blackwater Fire
– Cart Creek Fire
– Cerro Grande Fire
– Dude Fire
– Loop Fire
– Mack Lake Fire
– Mann Gulch Fire
– Rattlesnake Fire
– Rock Creek Fire
– South Canyon Fire
– Thirtymile Fire
————————————————–
Yarnell isn’t even there.
Not even an ‘icon’ for it on their ‘interactive map’.
We only lost 19 at once. No big whoop, right?
Nothing to see ( or even learn ) there.
Move along.
And I should have said, “accept at face value” because a great deal of information from the staff rides listed on that website will be factual.
But that is the real problem and why their lies are so insidious, they are intermingled with the truth and therefore are much harder and in most cases, simply impossible to identify which leaves me disbelieving everything they say until I have confirmed their veracity by my own groundproofing which is impossible in almost every instance.
I mean…I was on the Battlement Creek Fire Disaster and witnessed most of what happened first hand and I still don’t know everything they are lying about. I have identified many of their lies and Dr. Putnam identified many more, but I seriously doubt we know everything they lied about.
The reason that the Yarnell Hill Fire is not included on the Fireline Leadership website and in that list is because it was an Arizona STATE Wildland Fire. All the others are Federal fires.
That is what the AZ Forestry Bill Boyd and OMNA International say …
Random Thoughts For The Day
1. Except for the slaughterhouse industry. I think the average Undocumented Alien (UDA) probably gets about the same amount of training in the average meat packing house as the average wild land firefighter does?
The biggest difference is that the companies pay for the UDA’s to receive that training and they get paid to attend. Whereas the FIRE agencies force WLF hopefuls to pay for their own training and attend that training put on by private contractors for free.
Is that the agencies fault? Nope. It’s YOU PEOPLES fault because you have allowed your political representatives to starve the FIRE agency budgets because YOU PEOPLE want a first class wild land firefighting force, but you don’t want to pay for it.
2. I really hate to give any traction to Sad Sacks and the GMIHC opinion that the WLF safety rules are “hillbilly” because every one of them was paid for by WLF lives, but…maybe they could use some updating?
I think in the really old days when the Forest Ranger emptied out the bars and rounded up all of the farmers and ranchers to go up on the mountain to fight forest fires..probably having farmer John lay down to take a nap near the fire line was a bigger problem than it is today?
I also think they could be gone through by the federal Department Of Redundancy Department for you know…some redundancy redundancy reduction?
Today’s workforce was raised on video games and TV 📺 after all and there should be some effort to at least try and hold their attention long enough to memorize the rules by rote, however silly some of them seem now because they aren’t silly, just their presentation and format is.
And some of them fit in the Knowledge, Skills and Abilitues section for WLF, not in the safety section.
Because like I said, during my formative years in the USFS my world view was pretty narrow. It didn’t reach beyond our Fire Base, our field work, airports, fire camps and fire lines.
But…I wasn’t taught the rules were for us, they were for THEM. And if that is still a problem along with the kids of today thinking they are Hillbilly, maybe some changes need to be made to accommodate idiots like Sad Sack, because he might not be alone in his thinking?
In fact, and just as a reminder, there wouldn’t have been a single hotshot death from being burned to death in the history of hotshots from had four men not made the very same bad decision on four separate fires.
But since all four men did make the very same bad decision on four separate fires, the total number of hotshot dead from being burned to death now totals 43.
And I only need one (1) digit in order to list the very same bad decision all four men made on the Loop. Battlement Creek, South Canyon, and Yarnell Hill Fires now that I am a student of all four fires.
Imagine that…zero hotshot deaths from being burned to death had this ONE (1) rule been followed. And that ONE (1) rule is:
1. Do not work or hike in canyons that are natural chimneys for wild fires either in front of, or above said fires…period, end of story.
That’s it…pretty fuckin’ simple.
Whoops,
I mischaracterized what Dr. Putnam has written in the past. He didn’t say that all WLF deaths aren’t preventable, he said that you can’t successfully fight wildfires and follow all of the wild land firefighting rules at the same time.
And I agree with the world’s foremost wildfire fatality investigator in these 2 extremely important points:
1. Wildland firefighter fatalities are preventable.
2. It’s impossible to follow every single rule all of the time & successfully fight fire. (the rules effectively serve as a guide to absolve management from any fault & create a convenient check-off list to use for placing all of the blame on firefighters instead of management )
http://www.investigativemedia.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/12/fire_safety_up_in_smoke.pdf
Story Time
I did go on a fire once and I was going lackadaisical, panic, have muddled thoughts, and be indecisive, but thank goodness I reviewed my 10 Standard Firefighting Orders and it said I should, Be alert. Keep calm. Think clearly. and Act decisively so I did that instead.
Although like I said, for the first time in my life I am giving WLF safety some serious thought. And now that I think about it, I don’t know of any other inherently dangerous profession that spends so little to train its people before it throws them into the gaping maw of a fiery dragon 🐉 up on the mountain 🏔, so maybe we need a few more lists?
Marsh definitely should have reviewed the 10, 18 and LCES prior to repeatedly ordering his crew to their deaths. I just trying to work through some things in my head. And that ain’t easy since I’m me.
Stay in a 400 plus Acer burned area or go down a brush filled canyon in front of a flaming front of a moving fire to a one acer cleared ranch Safety Zone????? I agree with you Gary it dose not take a Genius to figure that out with out the 10 and 18,
Where is your best safety????
**
** THE VANESSA PURDY PHOTOGRAPHS – NEW VIDEO CROSSFADES
Reply to Robert the Second ( RTS ) post on April 21, 2019 at 2:11 pm
>> RTS said…
>>
>> Both ( the Vanessa Purdy ) photographs indicate suggestive evidence
>> of the Sesame Street and Shrine Corridor firing operation on the
>> afternoon of June 30, 2013
I am still ‘neutral’ about what the two Vanessa Purdy photographs might be ‘indicating’ ( I am NOT an FBAN nor a smoke expert )… but here are TWO new video ‘crossfades’ which at least show EXACTLY what the ‘fields of view’ are for BOTH of those Vanessa Purdy photographs.
For BOTH photographs… a ‘crossfade’ takes place into the equivalent Google Earth view… and the LEFT side and RIGHT side SIGHTLINES are indicated with ‘white lines’ extending off into the distance.
So at least we can now see, with a high degree of accuracy, EXACTLY WHERE the ‘smoke’ in those photographs COULD ( or COULD NOT ) have been at the time the photographs were taken.
NOTE: Both photographs are assumed to have been taken circa 4:30 PM that day.
** PURDY PHOTO 1
YouTube Video Title: Yarnell Hill Fire – 2013 – Purdy Photo 1
YouTube Video Link: https://youtu.be/LeAUmxUVS2s
** PURDY PHOTO 2
YouTube Video Title: Yarnell Hill Fire – 2013 – Purdy Photo 2
YouTube Video Link: https://youtu.be/u7UldNlKd3I
WTKTT,
Fine work once again. Thank you.
Two points of clarification are necessary:
(1) Why are the sightlines of the two photographs taken from approximately the same area dissimilar, i.e. one broad and one narrow? I thought sightlines were from the perspective of the photographer or from the perspective of the one / thing being photographed.
(2) How did you conclude the photos were taken around 4:30 PM (1630)?
Reply to Robert the Second (RTS) post on
April 27, 2019 at 8:25 pm
>> RTS said…
>>
>> Two points of clarification are necessary:
>>
>> (1) Why are the sightlines of the two photographs taken from approximately
>> the same area dissimilar, i.e. one broad and one narrow? I thought
>> sightlines were from the perspective of the photographer or from
>> the perspective of the one / thing being photographed.
>>
>> (2) How did you conclude the photos were taken around 4:30 PM (1630)?
** RE (1)
It’s legitimate to use the ‘sightline’ approach used in these two videos, whereby you concentrate on the LEFT EDGE ( vertical ) and the RIGHT EDGE ( vertical ) sightlines… and then extrapolate them off into the distance. Notice in each photo that the WHITE ‘sightline’ marks are, in fact, equal to the VERTICAL edge of the photographs when viewed from the origin point and the ‘perspective’ of the camera. In other words… if you put VERTICAL lines on both the LEFT and RIGHT edges of a photograph that correspond to the EDGES of the photo… and you extrapolate those into the distance… there really can’t be anything OUTISDE those lines that could have possibly been captured by the camera.
Hence… you now have the complete “field of view” for that photograph.
When you can’t actually SEE ‘landmarks’ that are far in the distance in order to determine ‘sightlines’ ( such as in this case, when all the distant landmarks are obscured by smoke, etc. )… this VERTICAL EDGE approach might not be perfect… but it’s still valid and the results can be considered ‘accurate’.
That being said… the FIRST Purdy photo actually DOES have one small ‘distant landmark’ that verifies the LEFT sightline, and the actual orientation of the camera.
I’m talking about the ‘thin’ orange line on the left side of that photograph after it fades down. Maybe this actually the ‘broad’ versus ‘narrow’ line thing you were actually referring to?
That thin / narrow ‘orange’ line is showing you that there is/was this one small spot just above the roof of the trailer where a ‘distant’ point on the Weaver Mountain ridge actually IS still ‘visible’ in the photograph.
Just watch the fade again on that PURDY 1 photo… then watch as the ‘orange line’ appears. It is pointing to the top of the roof and that one, small smoke-free section where you can actually see an identifiable ‘ridge point’ way out there on the Weavers.
Since the sky was ‘clear enough’ at that moment ( over the roof ) to actually SEE that distant point on the Weavers… the ‘orange line’ in the Google Earth view then shows you the farthest extent of ANY smoke and where the ‘clear air’ still was at that time.
** RE ( 2 )
As far as the TIME goes… the reason I have only said ‘circa 4:30 PM’ is because the time(s) for these photos has NOT yet been verified.
But ( at this moment ) I think it can be assumed they were both taken ‘circa’ that time… maybe a little earlier… but I’d still put money on a 4:24 PM to 4:30 PM ‘window’ for the following reasons…
1. I compared both photos to OTHER known photos of the same area taken in this 4:24 PM to 4:30 PM timeframe ( Byron Kimball photos, Blue Ridge photos, etc. )… and they seem to ‘jive’ with those other known photos and known timestamps.
2. One of the articles containing one of the photos actually SAID that ( according to Vanessa Purdy herself ) it was taken “just a few minutes after receiving an emergency 911 evacuation order”. Depending on what “a few minutes” means… it would still ( generally ) put the TIME into that same 4:24 PM to 4:30 PM ‘window’.
3. When I alerted you ( down below ) about the existence of that SECOND Purdy photo sitting on a public web page… I also pointed out that the actual FILENAME of that second Purdy photo sitting on that web server has a TIME of ‘4:30 PM’ harcoded in the filename itself.
What I actually said ( down below ) was…
—————————————————————————————-
On April 20, 2019 at 6:46 pm WantsToKnowTheTruth says
Here is a DIRECT LINK to that SECOND ‘Vanessa Purdy’ photo which accompanies the article listed above..
Notice the ‘timestamp’ of 4:30 PM in the image filename itself….
http://outdoorstorms.com/images/YarnellFireImages/YarnellSequence_FireSpread_430PM_TDolan.jpg
—————————————————————————————-
So, until more information emerges, we can ‘take a leap’ and assume that the author of that article ( Dolan? ) actually ‘verified’ the time with either Purdy herself, or some other way, before putting that “430PM” timestamp into the FILENME itself.
Maybe he had access to an ‘original copy’ of that photo… and that actually IS the TIMESTAMP embedded in the EXIF metadata itself…. and it’s accurate.
Followup…
Apologies… only after hitting ‘Send’ did I actually fully ‘grok’ the question you were actually asking above.
You said…
>> (1) Why are the sightlines of the two photographs taken from
>> approximately the same area dissimilar, i.e. one broad and
>> one narrow?
Because one of the photos is a RECTANGLE and the other is a SQUARE.
“PURDY 1” is a normal-ratio rectangle, and so the ‘sightlines end up being a ‘wider wedge’ that if it wasn’t.
“P”URDY 2” ( the annotated version of it found on that public website ) is more of a SQUARE… so the “field of view” wedge has to end up being SMALLER ( narrower ) that it would for a normal rectangular ‘aspect ratio’.
FOOTNOTE: The ‘PURDY 2’ photo is not truly a SQUARE… but it IS ‘smaller’ ( narrower ) than the ‘PURDY 1’ photo… so that’s why the ‘field of view’ for ‘PURDY 2’ also comes out ‘smaller’ ( narrower ).
“Seems to jive” doesn’t work for me on time. Sorry.
You’ve, once again, done amazing things with analysis and scenario recreation with the best tools and available evidence, BUT, we don’t have solid, factual, complete, and irrefutable information on TIMES nor are we certain we have all available evidence for analysis.
Therefore, the possibility of firing operations as a primary causal factor in the crew entrapment , much to the consternation of the powers that be, is still on the table. It’s still on my table until proven otherwise.
The Woodsman
Just “solid” and “factual” and “complete” and “irrefutable information on TIMES” and that’s all you expect?
Are you sure there’s no more?
Oh wait. There’s also “all available evidence for analysis.”
Only that too? Are you sure there is nothing else?
Well, since you asked, I want the whole truth & nothing but the truth unredacted written statements from every single person involved the Yarnell Hill fire, signed under their full commercial liability as public employees. I’d like certified copies mailed to mail sealed with tamper-proof tape so I’m the 1st one to open the package.
Option 2: A secure office space where I can witness the signed complete honest factual accounts by each and every person involved in the Yarnell Hill fire after I individually interview them in person. I want box lunches provided to me & spring water/unsweetened tea with lemon as this will be a no time limit, multi-day procedure. Also a place to pitch my shelter and access to a hot shower.
If I think of anything else, I’ll let you know. Thanks!
Correction: should be “mailed to ME…” not mailed to “mail.”
Let me know when you make this happen so I can clear my calendar. Thanks!
And for option 2, I want Gary Olson with me.
I’ll be there. My calender is pretty much already cleared…you know, all of the time.
Woodsman,
Such an idealist you are.
You posted that you want “the whole truth & nothing but the truth unredacted written statements from every single person involved the Yarnell Hill fire, signed under their full commercial liability as public employees. I’d like certified copies mailed to mail sealed with tamper-proof tape so I’m the 1st one to open the package.”
I think everyone that wants to know the truth about the YH Fire wants that as well. And those that do not want that want just the opposite. Good luck on the “certified copies sealed with tamper-proof tape.” Is there even such a thing as tamper proof-tape?
And then there is your “Option 2: A secure office space where I can witness the signed complete honest factual accounts by each and every person involved in the Yarnell Hill fire after I individually interview them in person. I want box lunches provided to me & spring water/unsweetened tea with lemon as this will be a no time limit, multi-day procedure. Also a place to pitch my shelter and access to a hot shower.”
OMG! A true whining Liberal at its finest.
Do you want your bread buttered or plain?
Are you sure you want just “access to a shower” and not the actual shower itself? Or would you prefer instead of a nice bubble bath?
And definitely, if you think of anything else, let you know.
Here’s a good one for you that I just came across that supports the accidents are inevitable and normal.
“When Making Things Better Only Makes Them Worse
Our very attempts to stave off disaster make unpredictable outcomes more likely.”
Apr 26, 2019 by Erik Larson is an entrepreneur and former research scientist at the University of Texas at Austin, where he specialized in machine learning and natural language processing. He is the author of The Myth of Artificial Intelligence forthcoming from Harvard University Press.
And of course … the link
( https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2019/04/why-accidents-like-notre-dame-fire-happen/587956/?utm_source=pocket-newtab )
RTS,
Which part of my requests made you the most uncomfortable?
Woodsman,
What do you think … the box lunches
What I think is that it wasn’t the box lunches, beverages, the access to a shower, or the tamper-proof tape. I think it’s something else.
I just want to say you know, can we…can we all just get along, can, can we get along? Can we stop making it horrible for the old people like me? We are on a countdown now to the truth about the YHF Disaster?
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=1sONfxPCTU0
Oh…and one more thing. And I don’t even want box lunches at all because those almost always suck. I want executive lunch hours so we can go to restaurants.
Okay, Rodney. I’ll try to be good…but there’s just so much material…okay, okay.
Story Time
The Tonto was infamous fit delivering frozen sack lunches by helicopter because they were afraid they would rot in the heat I guess?
I always specified the sandwiches had to be made out of wheat bread when I did my local preplanning contracts firveverything from sack lunches to heavy equipment as every Forest does as part of their FIRE plan.
Anyway…the Tonto was found of letting their contractors exclusively really cheap white bread for their sack lunches that we had to break open because they were frozen and then lay them on rocks in the sun to melt which of course didn’t take long given the ambient temperatures in the sun would be well over 100 degrees.
And yes…you are right, the result would be almost inedible goo of white mush with green meat, gooey cheese and the worst apples or oranges money could buy.
The chips and cookies (or whatever) were okay though.
But even on their best day, box or sack lunches sucked back in my day. There was zero quality control over how local cafes put those things together and the attitude was always…you’re lucky to get anything at all, so shut the fuck up and eat what we give you.
Of course for local family cafes in small towns, having hundreds and sometimes thousands of WLF showing up completely unexpected and almost overnight that need to be fed is always problematic….I imagine?
But once they have a few days to get FIRE contract caterers into a fire camp, there was always good food, even the sack lunches were good. But…they have the experience and their logistics all figured out ahead of time and with them, that is their business so there is quality control because they want to keep their contracts as Tory travel from fire camp to fire camp.
It works the same with shower contractors. They haul in huge shower trailers with everything they need. It always amazed me how small cities that support hundreds or even thousands of WLF can be built in the middle of nowhere in just a couple of days. Most people probably don’t realize just how much logistical work goes into fighting wildfires by lots of people who never even see the fire.
Oh…and one more thing. I am a whiney bitch (non gender specific) and damn proud of it. It’s part of my rite of passage into the geriatric class, kinda like my discount for a movie ticket.
In fact, usually we would arrive at a staging area and then be immediately sent to the fire for our first shift that could last up to 36 hours or more as gas often been said on this thread.
But…by the time we made it back to the same staging area where nothing had been, there would be a small city set up to provide for our every need, including a police force…amazing.
Well if the time is 4:24-4:30 how long had that fire been set before that to make that smoke stack? So Joy and I had talked to Howard and Bruce and they had seen smoke in that area much earlier. They were right on the NW edge of Glen Isla and their testimony indicated around 3:30. I am not sure Joy retrieved any photos from them but I was in Phoenix area where we hunted Howard up and after loosing everything he was glad to be out of the area. His wife was ill as well–so many fell ill after the massive retardant dumps.
Bruce did not want to talk much about the fire–I saw him in the American Legion and also at his yard sale where Joy interviewed him. He did not have his house burn but he had a direct view of all the smoke toward the Helms off his back Yard.
Of course the investigators never interviewed either one of them and I suspect the would not like their testimony.
I suspect Joy will come up with evidence of the actual times of photos, testimonies and so forth. I have a hunch those photos are much earlier and jive with what Howard and Bruce said.
Reply to Woodsman post on April 28, 2019 at 4:50 pm
>> Woodsman said…
>> “Seems to jive” doesn’t work for me on time. Sorry.
The EXACT ‘times’ for those photos is most likely going to change, as more becomes known about these photographs… but just based on comparing things to other photos… it will probably remain ‘late afternoon’ on June 30, 2013.
The “fields of view” will, however, probably NOT change.
However many photographs were taken at that location, at whatever time(s), at least there will now be a ‘base reference’ for SIGHTLINES.
>> Woodsman also said…
>>
>> You’ve, once again, done amazing things with analysis
>> and scenario recreation with the best tools and available
>> evidence, BUT, we don’t have solid, factual, complete,
>> and irrefutable information on TIMES
Nope. Not yet.
>> Woodsman also said…
>>
>> nor are we certain we have all available evidence for analysis.
Correct.
>> Woodsman also said…
>>
>> Therefore, the possibility of firing operations as a primary
>> causal factor in the crew entrapment , much to the
>> consternation of the powers that be, is still on the table.
>> It’s still on my table until proven otherwise.
Of course it is still “on the table”… but your statement still has TWO parts to it…
(1) The possibility of a firing operation
(2) as a PRIMARY causal factor in the crew entrapment
If (1) didn’t happen… then (2) also did not… but even if it can be PROVEN that (1) happened… that doesn’t automatically ( also ) confirm (2).
It’s complicated.
Agreed. Thanks.
Well a lot of this is becoming more clear in my mind thanks to WTKTT, Gary Olson, Woodsman, RTS, Norb, and even Holly Niel. Holly’s article pointed out the stobs–something to be seen very close to the Helms but hundreds of yards–maybe 700 or 800 yards away from the stobs at the death site where GMHS had cut around themselves in a futile attempt to save their lives. So maybe Holley will come on and tell us more–Amanda permitting–about the truth of why those stobs were located where they were.
You see Howard and Bruce that lived right along the area–Bruce almost adjacent to the Helms 40 acre ranch had told us about seeing smoke in that area as early as about 3;30 PM that day. Now that I have had some education here about these things such as burn outs, It stands to reason that someone was actually cutting line there at the Helms where these stobs that Holley points out were located. If indeed they were cutting line through that Manzanita brush, they with Gary’s input, it would be burn–“that is what the wild land fire fighter does”. And there would be no other good reason to cut line in there since Helms was already “bomb proof” and considered by the fire elites to be a safety zone. So the torchers would have an very close proximity to a safe zone if they were doing line and a burn in there.
With all the evidence and what I would surmise if I were Sherlock Holmes, those men had set a burn right in there–The Purdy photos would verify that–those were not ember spot fires at all in the photo and unless you see the actual time line of the photos, it would not have been 4:30 but much earlier at the same time Howard, Bruce, and some others told Joy and I they saw smoke in there.. A burn in that area would make sense to protect Glen Isla if they knew that the GMHS were not on their way down into the death trap box canyon and believed them to be still in the black. I can not imagine anything different at this point. Perhaps Joy can come up with some provable time frames–yet we have competent witnesses testimony as to time frames of the smoke stacks in the area including the Shrine–much earlier than the 4:30 PM stated for the Purdy photos.
You see I hiked right through there and know where the stobs are located: however, since Holly spent 11 days with the Helms, her testimony as to the exact situation concerning the stobs might be an aid to understanding and that depends upon how much she wants to follow the lead of Amanda. It is so hard to get dependable evidence from those involved with Amanda concerning the facts of the fire itself–though you might learn a lot of personal information as we saw in the movie.
Perhaps Holly, Joy or someone else will post the article for all to review concerning the stobs.
Jeff that is Yarnell Fire Chief might be in for a run for his money. Joy with all her training–she is getting even more in California this week–has been having thoughts of becoming the Yarnell Fire Chief. Well she knows just about every soul there and has been there for well over ten years. It would be a hard thing to turn her down considering her value in helping prove the truth of what killed the men and how and now with her qualifications as a wild land fire fighter–what less could she deserve as a job as Yarnell Fire Chieftress. For sure she would not be lax in putting out wild land fires near Yarnell even if they are lightening strikes. She would also make sure people kept up on their defensible space and I know how many times she pulled weeds freely for the elderly and disabled–so that would be a given.
I miss Bret Yodel–He passed a few months after the fire –long time quadriplegic from a car accident-I still have the Gibson that I bought at the Yard Sales his relatives were having. It has SG on it–my initials- it is a SG Gibson electric, well used but perfect sounding–and I play it quite often. Maybe I will sing a sad song and some get over the heart break of the death of those youngsters. I will be coming up on 76 but did get those telephone poles in the air and that porch put in except the screening in. The right arm does not work as well after the gunshot but the left is getting stronger. I built the steps to the porch (it is up 3-4 ft on 36 ancient railroad ties (some nails dated 1922) that I cut and buried more that two ft. in the ground. The roof is supported by telephone poles that hold up 20 foot telephone poles that I set the rafters on. I put plywood down then heavy metal rooffing so I have a surround porch with 2×6 and 2×4 flooring. So if you weigh even 700 pounds you won’t fall through. Now I have 20 375 wat solar panels to piss ant up the ladder and mount on the roof of this porch—8×40 foot wrap around but the way a miner and mucker does it–I lost the bad part. But one thing for sure if the water gets high, I am dry. Well the logging helped too–a faller–but woodsman selling fire wood for quite a number of years–probably could carve Ice like Joy does with a chain saw. (I only dropped the saw on my leg once–when I changed bar lengths–it cut a nasty hole in my leg but I never bothered to go get it sewed up so I have a nice long scar there to go along with that big burn scar caused by that Fire Chief in Las Cruces when he put a glass jug on a wood stove my dad kept at his Gas Station. Mom saved my life (4 year old) by dunking me into the ice coke box–those days the cokes were kept cold by ice and water and the old Coca Cola Boxes were quite large and ample room to dunk a 4 year old. Skin graphs helped that scar to not look as bad as it could have. Well life can be dangerous-you realize that when you dog shoots you in the back with your 12 gauge. That right arm is coming back but a pain to reach up high with it. Yet in all the strange incidents of life I feel damn happy and fortunate to be alive–and looking at what happened to the young 17 under the care of their bosses, you have to watch out even for the more intelligent things in your life. Too bad when men begin to look out for their own personal aggrandizement while forgetting the most precious asset they are in command of–that is the lives of those young heroes they killed due to their negligence and lack of due regard to the lives of their crew.
But then last night I watched the Holocaust movie and see how good German men would take orders to commit genocide–and even confronted they found excuse for their actions. Mainly pass the buck upstairs if they did not say they were doing the world a favor by eliminating human beings that were of different ethnic and religious leanings. Of course we want to believe the actions that killed the GMHS youngsters was not deliberate, but even that is questionable considering the way every common sense rule that boss firefighters know were broken and no matter how much they say as Willis did–those men had to protect structures–thats what they do—It boggles the mind that anyone of good sense and intelligence would believe that. Hey the bosses knew the gravity of the situation–waving a pulaski at a wild land fire of ultimate and extreme magnitude equal to atom bomb energy every 15 minutes and laying down 100-200ft flames where all the jumbo jet retardant they could supply and even an army of men –would be like a mouse trying to mate with an Elephant–as the joke went when the Elephant let out that humongous roar–did I hurt you honey? No the excuses and imaginations of people making up these stories are listened to by the public because of their ignorance of wild land fire fighting–but if they knew what the wild land fire fighters know there was no way they would encounter the danger of flanking a fire in extreme wind and weather changes just to take care of a few abandoned buildings. Yet the public does not know and the fire fighting honchos do not want the press in there to educate people as to what is really going on. That carte blanche public tax money to fight fires and the hero worship might diminish and greatly in some cases.
Well there is more to the story for certain. Now that I see the photos as posted I see there were more than just the Shrine burn and with three smoke stacks early on there was burning going on at more than just the Helms area. What the hell was Marsh thinking–something that creates the wonder was he directing his own demise and his crew along with him? There is just to much evidence that gives me the willies about this. Why I say use an FBI profiler–use the men that have not degraded themselves into positions of delusion and methods of deluding the public and even the loved ones where they have been deprived of the facts that killed their loved ones.
to be continued
Joy has let me know there is more to be revealed and she has it stored and under wraps–just getting permissions and doing things the right way so people that have these photos and proof of these burns placated. She does not want to loose people’s confidence and therefore dry up her sources. But the facts are coming out soon and I am assured we will not be long in getting them. I
I assured her that many will not like the truth out there. Yet the loved ones deserve it and perhaps not now early on but in time we all must know why when we loose someone cherished in our hearts. It does make things some better knowing, yet the loved one is always remembered and heart felt in sorrow. If there is a Catholic Jesus Ted Gilligan, my son, is looking down–and some day I will meet him and know why he died before his time.
But I am a Universalist in Religion, all good if the principles are–bad if you are of the mind to say kill Infadels because they won’t bonk their heads five times a day–and the green object in the sky that Joy just photographed, perhaps she will share a link to it and more photos. It might well be the Irish Gods in their green space craft checking up on earth. I wish she would also share the photo of that apparition that appeared at Aguila, Arizona one moonlighted night right on my 5 acres north of town. So yes to psychic abilities and yes to scientists who estimate there should be according to math some 500,000 planets with life in this Galaxy alone. And just because you think there is no way to go those long distances in space then you are like the men who said there was no way man could ever fly or go to the moon. We are at the beginning of knowledge and know nothing much about 11 dimensions beyond our own and parallel universes right in our own time. Well known that Einstein proved that if you took off at the speed of light and returned some 50 years later earth time, most of your buddies would have aged 50 years if they were alive and you still would only be minutes older to greet them. So the time warp is just a fact that we know little of except that it is a fact of physics and mathematics that does exist.
I have 20 Solar panels to haul up–I have not much time left on this earth but it is well to get away from green house gasses. Of course it took energy to make the panels but over time I think the panels win the race to keep the earth CO2 down some. The Chinese are on board with this thought, Trump says it is phoey. But plastics, retatdant, and all other pollutants are benefiting the makers much and doing the environment irreparable harm. Trump might say well we need to rid the planet of all these poor people-=-but his heart is hard like the Hitler was with human life and I mean not only the Jews–he caused the death of millions of non Jews, his own armies of men and other civilians. So wear the Swastika if you like but I grant in my way of thinking you are another case of ignorance and hubris. And can pride be a good thing? Only if it bears good and is founded upon truth and reason.
You would think 75 years on this planet I would know something. But if it is how to get money rich, not so. But I do feel rich looking at the apricot trees budding with small green apricots, a garden that has tomatoes, potatoes, spices and chillies and some other things growing. No weed in my case but it is likely a good medicine for some things. And a heart that is rich in life’s experiences. Thoreau was an Englishman that looked down on Irishmen. But he had some good things to say–he said a man ought to be able to build himself a home. I have done that and followed his example of independent living. An Irishman American listens to an Englishman? Well not often, but many of the English are of the finest people. It is the politicians that blight things in any country. Generally the English would never have stood by and watch the Irish die like flies from starvation during the potatoe famine of 1845–but the leaders–King and political subjects delighted in it. But they did not know that they were Blessing America with so many Irish. Yet don’t expect them to be driving Deloreans.
Good tidings and blessing to all, especially to those contributing here and my hiking pal Joy–a case and a hero in my way of thinking.
On Mon, Apr 29, 2019 at 5:49 PM Arizona.Desert.Walker wrote:
Well…once again, absolutely amazing work that brings so much clarity to the event. In fact, the work WTKTT did with these photographs make it very hard for me to visualize or comprehend how a backfire out of the Shrine area could have possibly have been a significant factor in the deaths of the crew given the distance, and topography versus time. I am prepared to be schooled…but I remain a skeptic.
Then You have not paid attention…the THEME always has been the chutes and chimneys Sesame to Shrine corridors not just the Shrine…the areas spurred all around that leads into the DZ
It entailed laying fire on areas without even any anchor point
Sorry but I alerted JD and he was cool I back channel to have some assistance and so far that person is just busy doing other stuff I reckon but there is much more and because I saw no interest back channel I stopped emailing more data as I planned when I awoke today. I felt THAT PERSON must have a busy day so I will make mine such way too.
I await your revelations with great anticipation and an appropriate degree of gratitude and level of awe for everything you have done in furtherance of the truth and to make the scales fall from my eyes, God Bless and God speed.
Oh…and one more thing. I deeply regret I did not add “against overwhelming odds” to my previous post because you are indeed, the real life model for the Energizer Bunny because you just keep going and going and going and going and going and going and going and going and going and going and going and going and going and going and going and going and going and going and going and going and going and going and going and going and going and going and going and going and going and going and going and going and going and going and going and going and going and going and going and going and going and going and going and going and going and going and going and going and going and going and going and going and going and going and going and going and going and going and going and going and going and going and going and going and going and going and going and going and going and going and going and going and going and going and going and going and going and going and going and going and going and going and going and going and going and going and going and going and going and going and going and going and going and going and going and going and going and going and going and going and going to infinity and beyond!
Whoops, 😬
“To infinity and beyond!” (Buzz Lightyear, Toy Story)
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=yejqDshtyLA
FYI…I don’t really think the loss of THAT person will be detrimental to your plans, So…
The TIMES for those two PUBLIC / PUBLISHED Vanessa Purdy photos will probably change, as more is learned… but I believe those “fields of view” are totally accurate, and that won’t change.
Since these TWO photographs are simply the ones known to have been ‘released’ by Vanessa Purdy to public media outlets… they are simply ‘copies’ of the originals reformatted to fit on a web page. So they are NOT the ‘originals’ and there is no relevant EXIF metadata ( like TIMESTAMPS or DEVICE NAME ) in those PUBLIC copies of the photographs.
Since she ( Vanessa Purdy ) was perfectly fine with allowing these TWO photographs to be publicly published, ( along with her name and the location where they were taken ) she obviously isn’t all that concerned with being ‘anonymous’ or anything… so maybe more photographs ( original copies? ) will emerge.
That location where she was taking these photographs really is/was the absolute CLOSEST residence to the Boulder Springs Ranch, there at the far western edge of Glen Ilah… so ( obviously ) ANY photographs taken from that location are very important and deserve to part of the PUBLIC evidence record.
Should the proof of several back burns and burn outs prove to be the case then it should be no surprise. I was thinking of the Deputy B. who did say he was there and he knew there was communication yet the situation was total chaos. Seems no crew knew exactly what other crews were doing and you had people in charge even walking off the job. It appears groups were doing what they thought were procedures sensible for the occasion. And if I were to look at all the possible back burns and burn outs and their locations, I would say they make sense. I think even the crew bosses would agree that while winds were directed away from Glen Isla and away from the Helms Ranch, a back burn would be a given. Now I am not a wild land fire fighter so I am certain to hear something about my civilian way of thinking.
But this is not what brought me to the computer–What came to mind was Raul and Teresa as we knew them before the fire some years. Teresa and Raul were regulars to the Yarnell Library–Both were healthy and very vibrant people. Teresa had retired from some official joy fot the state–always healthy and always in a conversation with Joy. Raul was more reserved but healthy. But within a few months after the 2013 Yarnell Fire and the massive retardant dumps things began to go down hill. People Joy and I had the pleasure to dine with as guests in their home had soon deteriorated in their health so that Raul could barely get to the mail box and the Vibrant and always smiling and positive Teresa was in such bad health that she could not leave her home. She could no longer make her visits to the library. This saddens me greatly because these outstanding people with tremendous vitality for their ages you would never expect to be seen in this condition, yet this is only one example of the many cases Joy and I know of and personally are witnesses to.
The Yarnell deaths of the young wild land fire fighters together with the almost 200 deaths out of 650 Yarnell residents after the two massive retardant dumps of 2013 and 2015 is a horror story that defies imagination and possibilities. Even people I did not know were dying, and as we stopped at the post office there you would ask why are they selling things–the guy behind the post office had died of a heart attack. It was almost a daily death tally and Joy mentioned 9 had passed in a weeks time.
You see, Joy knew practically every soul on a personal basis that has passed. The horror story has to be something that bears on her. Yarnell to me came to be a doomsday town and the only thing that I could connect to the situation was the massive retardant dumps. There had been others that were complaining of the detrimental effects on the environment and health problems related to the retardant dumps–yet until I went and researched the matter I could not see how what I believed to be a harmless chemical solution could be instead a deadly pollutant with devastating effects not only upon the environment and aquatic life but upon the human organisms. Ammonium gas and the production of cyanide gases due to ammonium phosphates applied to extreme fires such as that was at Yarnell are health hazards in the extreme for elderly. But we have no idea what the secret ingredients are that accompanied the retardant drops. Of course cyanide gas was the killer constituent of Zyclon B, Hitlers extermination gas of the Jews and only 1/60th of a teaspoon is enough to kill a 140 pound person. So some spy people would carry a small capsule for suicide in case of capture.
Yes the deaths of the young firefighter heroes tears at the heart. But so to the horrible and needless deaths of the elderly due to these chemicals. And if you have a better explanation for all the sudden illness and deaths of the Yarnellites after the massive orange retardant dumps then let me know.
Joy is busy right now seeking more qualifications, but perhaps she will honor some of the many deaths that are part of the horror story at Yarnell.
I can only tell you that my own heart attacks–the second one that killed me was at Prescott some months after the fire. But it was in Helena, Montana that I had the first heart attack and that was only a few months after the fire. Since I have had several attacks and near death from them so that it has resulted in six heart stints. I went in just before my dog shot me in the back because I was in chest pain and could barely walk across the parking lot without being out of breath. About a month before at William Beaumont Army Hospital the doctors had run a catheter to my heart because of these sympotoms yet determined that I was OK despite the pains and lack of breath. But something had to be wrong, why I went back to the hospital, this time I limped into the hospital at Las Cruces. Again the Cardioligist made an emergency look at my heart with the catheter. Damn he did not use enough pain medication and I felt that one even at my heart–but I needed to know and would you not know my veins were clear but he said he could see the stents and they were good as well.
However a subsequent MRI found something on the left lung. The dog shot the other one out about a month later.
I say this because too many people at Yarnell have suffered the same and most have not made it back from the hospital. And those that suffered the most are of my age category–older folk beyond their 50’s–though Joy has been battling some symptoms at her younger years–I will live the age disclosure to her.
I do hope someone finally investigates what is going on with this retardant. I do know it is applied as though it is a harmless chemical, yet scores have passed at Yarnell after its application and I personally have seen people deteriorate in heath and happiness within a short time span after the proud pilots had been ordered to surround and inundate Yarnell with it–not once in 2013 but also again during the Tenderfoot Fire of 2015.
Joy remains the person to name those who were victims of the retardant dumps.
Oh…and one more thing. What El Jefe” AKA El Estupido and “Mrs. Pity-me-please” were doing ‘behind the scenes’ is even worse than at first glance… because that ‘Family Staff Ride’ was a COURT ORDERED event.
Jeff Whitney himself SIGNED that legal settlement agreement on June 29, 2015, on behalf of Arizona Forestry and the State of Arizona… thereby agreeing to act in ‘good faith’ and uphold ALL the terms of the settlement agreement.
He (El Estupido) is lucky the judge in the case didn’t find out about these back-channel shenanigans at the time.
He/She could have VOIDED the entire fucking settlement agreement upon learning about what was going on.
Jeff Whitney ( “El Jefe” ) was tapped to be the director of Arizona Forestry for one reason only… to placate the ‘families’ and make their ‘wrongful death’ lawsuits ‘go away’.
It’s still a shame that the families folded.
The ONE thing that Arizona Forestry could NOT let happen was to let ANY of those ‘wrongful death’ lawsuits make it to trial… because that’s when actual legal ‘discovery’ is allowed, and ‘under oath’ depositions get taken and ( eventually ) people have to testify “under oath”.
There was no way Arizona Forestry was going to allow that to happen.
But now we see that even after actually signing the settlement agreement… Whitney was conspiring with others to ‘shape’ things that were COURT ORDERED by the agreement itself.
What a piece of work this guy was/is.
WTKTT,
When I talked with Jeff Whitney on the morning of the April 2016 Family Staff Ride, Whitney indicated that I was unwelcome. He later told me that he quit a good job in order to accept the AZ Forestry Director position because he wanted to be a major part of the YH Fire “healing process” through the YH Fire Staff Ride development. I felt that he was very sincere in his declaration and intentions about why he came to the AZ Forestry.
At the Pioneer Cemetery after the Staff Ride, he told me that he was glad that I had come and participated
What followed afterwards in the text messages between him and AM that Joy provided is interesting and yet disturbing for me
And…
And it looks to me like you fell asleep in the middle of posting your thought? I would like to know the rest of it.
In addition, I just looked up El Estupido and it looks like he was canned as State Forester some time back. Does anybody know what happened?
Gary,
On the contrary, I think you’re the one that fell asleep.
Joy posted about all that back awhile ago.
( https://www.investigativemedia.com/please-begin-yarnell-hill-fire-chapter-xxvi-here/#comment-475650 )
( https://www.investigativemedia.com/please-begin-yarnell-hill-fire-chapter-xxvi-here/#comment-476665 )
Gary,
On the contrary, I think you were the one that fell asleep because Joy posted on this awhile back.
On in December 2018 and one in January 2019.
( https://www.investigativemedia.com/please-begin-yarnell-hill-fire-chapter-xxvi-here/#comment-475650 )
Yes, you are correct Sir…I missed all of that, my bad. Geez, and I thought I was ratting 🐀 out the current State Forester for misusing the power if his office, how embarrassing for me.
BUT…in my defense, this is a very complicated story line. And in fact..I maintain that if someone wrote it up and presented it in Hollywood, it would be rejected immediately for “jumping the shark” to many times and for its implausibility.
This is a very complicated case, Maude. You know, a lotta ins, lotta outs, lotta what-have-you’s. And, uh, lotta strands to keep in my head, man. Lotta strands in old Duder’s head. Luckily I’m adhering to a pretty strict, uh, drug regimen to keep my mind, you know, limber.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=HjJhbnz8YX0
Gary,
“Implausibility is not a reason to completely dismiss empirical findings, but impossibility is. It is up to authors to interpret the effect size in their study, and to show the mechanism through which an effect that is impossibly large, becomes plausible. Without such an explanation, the finding should simply be dismissed.”
So saith Daniel Lakens, an experimental psychologist at the Human-Technology Interaction group at Eindhoven University of Technology, The Netherlands.
The 20% Statistician – A blog on statistics, methods, and open science. Understanding 20% of statistics will improve 80% of your inferences.
Monday, July 3, 2017 – “Impossibly hungry judges”
( http://daniellakens.blogspot.com/ )
The sheer number of photos revealing separate and distinct smoke columns (plumes) in the areas of the Sesame Street and Shrine Fuel / Fire Break Corridor meet the plausibility standard noted by author Daniel Lakens.
Correction: The above should read as follows:
The sheer number of photos revealing separate and distinct smoke columns (plumes) in the areas of the Sesame Street and Shrine Fuel / Fire Break Corridor strongly indicating a firing operation and therefore meet the plausibility standard noted by author Daniel Lakens.
Reply to Robert the Second (RTS) post on
April 27, 2019 at 1:11 pm
>> RTS said…
>>
>> When I talked with Jeff Whitney on the morning of the
>> April 2016 Family Staff Ride, Whitney indicated that
>> I was unwelcome.
>>
>> ( Fast forward a few hours )
>>
>> At the Pioneer Cemetery after the Staff Ride, he told me that
>> he was glad that I had come and participated
So what do you think ( or know? ) happened just in the course of
those few hours for “El Jefe” to “change his tune” 180 degrees?
That’s some “turnaround” just in the course of 1 afternoon.
WTKTT,
I guess because we go “way back” as Hot Shots. We were on the Dude Fire together on June 26, 1990.
And I believe that he realized we were basically on the same side as far as the entire YH Fire and GMHS debacle.
Not so much on the report though, because I had to go before him and his AZ State Forestry Board in 2016 to get approval to do a wildland fire refresher about the human factors influencing the YH Fire and GMHS fatalities on June 30, 2013.
However, it seemed to me that he was obviously sucking up to AM on the whole Staff Ride thing with the text messages
Yes…and I think “sucking up” is the biggest understatement on this thread to date.
RTS on those spot fires you recently posted did you have a time frame for the photos? I oriented myself and actually hiked right through the area with one of the loved ones so I know exactly where that spot fire was located. That might clarify some things in my thinking.
tried to post a few times….try again
to put it another way…
That is how Gary the past 24 hours placed it on IM
His spin not mine.
I gave him and RTS the text thread between Jeff Whitney and a loved one and when I said
“Gary and RTS- I am going to email you what Jeff Whitney wrote about you with a loved one- you deserve to know that….what you both do with it i[s] up to you but I am tired of holding on to certain areas.”
My area was to show them the distastes behind the scenes that have gone on for years
-not at all what he wrote or alleged or implied.is how I feel
yet it was part of that text thread.which he quoted so he is sharing a perception I never even grasped nor thought it could be assumed such way.
I was alerted about it and I am heading for more training so I cannot look to this area to “babysit” what another took and perceived so if that is how Gary felt – I can publicly state I did not express that public or private and I do not feel such way
but indeed I do have a lot of receipts and records and indeed it was right to let RTS and Gary see how their old pal Jeff interacts behind close doors.
Thank God for super technology capabilities. or Gary and RTS would never know what was being said behind their backs that is rather important.
Didn’t you catch that data Gary?
A person trying to ensure you were not allowed to be somewhere?
I found it distasteful and unprofessional- you did not Gary?
You went another direction with the content.
Then you wonder why IM gets the descriptions it does….
Gary, I am not perfect-
How could I have sent that to you where you would have focused to the content on you not being allowed to be somewhere-
???
I mean it was harsh what you said about a few areas…and then mixing me in…I get it…
I annoy you, say dumb things so why not…
but listen if the light bulb burns out in your laundry room- what do you do Gary? Buy a new light bulb…skate thru in the daylight in that area?…buy a new home that comes with a new bulb?
Just curious…I know you were having fun with the data but you should have walked away with someone trying to limit where you were allowed and the question is WHY??? I have no clue how you got where you got-
I know you are not here to build names on a Christmas list roster- I get that.
I just wanted to get the whole lingo
Do you know what love even is?
You spoke about it last night,
Love has so many languages- I know…right
But when you truly love someone you may be out hiking or on the pc or riding in your jeep but you ensure to communicate in some way to let that person know hey you are on my mind …
Love is…
I find it’s good company…a person to vibe with…laugh with…not in any rush to label how you are to another…oh and feelings have a lot to do with love…
We all perceive differently. I came on just to state I do not perceive what I shared to you and RTS the same way.
Somebody told me we were to meet up and share scripture today- that person dissed me and I am finding myself re-evaluating my days to come…I do not like when someone says stuff than texts they are out having a beautiful day and just blew me off. I only came here to state I do not support your take on what I gave you.
That’s all.
I am not just saying that…I mean it.
I thought you would have been shocked by Jeff not being professional and stand up for you.
You did not deserve that.
Joy,
The email speaks for itself. Everyone hears what they want to hear, but I hear what it says…exactly what it says. One of your greatest strengths is your naivety and sweetness. One of your greatest weaknesses is your naivety and your sweetness.
People like you who are the sheep 🐑, can exist in this world 🌎 in relative security among the wolves 🐺 like Jefe and the former Mrs. Eric Marsh, because of people like me…who are the sheepdogs 🐕.
Sometimes what we do to defend you is ugly and you shouldn’t watch. But…In your darkest hour when your demons come call on me, sister and we will fight them together.
Political corruption is the use of powers by government officials or their network contacts for illegitimate private gain. … Forms of corruption vary, but include bribery, extortion, cronyism, nepotism, parochialism, patronage, influence peddling, graft, and embezzlement.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Political_corruption
Arizona Department of Forestry and Fire Management State Forester Jeff Whitney is guilty of public corruption because he used his official office and the powers of that office for corrupt purposes.
Send me the all of the emails and I will put everything on my website in context so that everyone can see how Jefe and the former Mrs. Eric Marsh conspired to use the power of his office to deprive both RTS and myself of a benefit we were entitled to receive because I had been invited to attend that staff ride as the guest of the mother of one of the dead hotshots. Every family was allowed to invite one guest to accompany them and she invited me.
But in the end…I asked RTS to attend in my place because I felt he knew the players, the lay of the land, and the current issues far better than I did.. Criminals don’t have to be successful when they conspire to break the law, because being successful at committing a crime isn’t an element of the conspiracy statute. So…
El Jefe is lucky the statute of limitations has either run out or will soon run out on his crime of conspiracy, or I would give him something to worry about that is much bigger than just being publicly shamed for using the power of his official office to tap our dead hotshot brother’s wife in her hour of need.
And that need was to be vindictive and punish those whom she perceived were her enemies because they were telling the truth about how her former husband was responsible for killing his hotshot crew through his criminally negligent decisions and actions.
That and the fact no state law enforcement agency in Arizona would acceptor investigate my valid complaint. 🙁
“…accept or investigate…
Oh…and one more thing. I don’t even have to file a complaint for El Jefe’s criminal acts to be investigated. I have now done my duty, I have alerted the State of Arizona to the fact that public corruption occurred. The crime wasn’t against me…El Jefe and the former Mrs. Eric Marsh)s crimes were against the people of Arizona. All of the evidence they would need to prosecute those crimes is contained in those email strings.
I wrote thousands of official emails during my career and I never wrote any like the ones El Estúpido wrote. What a stupid fuck!
Hey RTS…I’m not being to “squishy” for you now am I?
Joy,
What those people did was offensive and distasteful to you because you are a good person.
But because you are a good person and naive, you didn’t realize that what they did was actually commit and least three felonies.
And those are public corruption, conspiracy and wire fraud because they used the internet to commit their criminal acts.
And let’s not forget that…
…that ain’t legal either.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=oovqYtMy1BI
I mean…the Great State Of Arizona didn’t even investigate the deaths of 19 people who were killed as the result of criminally negligent acts, much less conspiracy to use the power of a public office in an attempt to deprive both RTS and I of a benefit (thing of value) we were entitled to receive. Am I right?
Gary,
A bit too crass and disrespectful of the dead for me even though we agree – and allege – that Marsh’s actions and decisions were causal factors to the deaths of their men on June 30, 2013.
And for those that require a bit of education for because you know little or nothing of what Gary is referring to above, read the article in the link below.
“Book Excerpt: On Sheep, Wolves, and Sheepdogs” (Police One – June 3, 2008)
“If you want to be a sheepdog, you must make a conscious and moral decision every day to dedicate, equip and prepare yourself to thrive in that toxic, corrosive moment when the wolf comes knocking at the door”
( https://www.policeone.com/police-products/training-products/articles/1709289-Book-Excerpt-On-Sheep-Wolves-and-Sheepdogs/ )
I know RTS…we established that you are a better person than me a long time ago.
But then again…you didn’t do the things I did in your name for 18 years so you aren’t in a position to judge me are you?
And a lot of people are sheepdogs who never served in the military or law enforcement. You are a sheepdog.
RTS,
I just read the article at the link you provided and when I got to the end and read the name of the author, Dave Grossman.
And then I remembered that is where I first heard the theory of sheep, wolves and sheepdogs. I attended a law enforcement conference (in Prescott at the old Sheraton) where Lt. Colonel Grossman lectured us. He is a very captivating speaker.
But my old friend…you are one of the strongest and most capable sheepdogs I have ever served beside. So you know…keep up the good work. 👍🏻
My comment is awaiting moderation take Ii.
Oh yeah, I forgot about the impact the criminal acts of Jefe and the former Mrs. Eric Marsh would have had on the other person who was involved in that scenario.Mrs. Marcia McKee whose son Grant McKee was killed with the other Granite Mountain Hotshots.
El Jefe and the former Mrs. Eric Marsh did everything they could in an attempt to defraud Mrs. McKee of the one emotional support person she chose to accompany her on the Yarnell Hill Staff Ride.
So…I don’t really want to hear about how mean I am for doing the little I can to extract some accountability from two really bad people. I have my own sheep to do what I can to protect.
And as a matter of fact, I believe I am speaking and acting for many of the crew who were killed by an egomaniac and now their legacy of making a positive contribution to wild land firefighter safety is being destroyed by the Yavapai County FIRE Cosa Nostra and the former Mrs. Eric Marsh’s posse of enablers.
So yes…my tactics are distasteful at times, but this is asymmetrical and non conventional warfare. I use the weapons that are available to me. But people know who I am and what my position is…right?
Although Fred and Joy are the ones who keep walking into the lair of the wolves and facing them down.
Gary Says: Although Fred and Joy are the ones who keep walking into the lair of the wolves and facing them down.
My Reply- thank you for the explanations-
I just never saw it the way you placed it out.using unusual words like “tap” or “cold”….those areas seem harsh-
Yes, I did think about the McKee family when I sent it to you and RTS and that was my concern. that they were not shown the proper respect. I did not even say that out loud but I was thinking it as I shared-
Sorry Gar-
Fred. and I (as well as many others here on this thread like THE Woodsman and HAL 9000) are playing three dimensional chess ♟, the Cabal is playing checkers and Joy is either playing Tiddlywinks or Battleship? Who the fuck knows?
You don’t have to be sorry about anything Joy, this world needs a lot more people like you…and a few like me. 🙂
You are indeed a National Treasure just like Sonny is!
And you know I was just joking with you about the Tiidlywinks.
But all joking aside, the former Mrs. Eric Marsh replaced him pretty fast in her life.
Mrs, Marcia McKee can’t replace Grant. Amanda lost her husband…Marcia lost her son, who I believe was her only child.
But Mrs. McKee never drank the Yavapai County FIRE Cosa Nostra Kool Aid and everyone there treated her horribly and completely disrespectfully.
You send me the rest of that material you have from El Jefe, and I will do everything I can to settle the score, at least a little bit for what Mrs. McKee was put through by a lot of really bad people that included yelling at her to try and force her to sign documents. They also used uniformed police officers in that setting to intimidate her.
And in the process they withheld logistical financial assistance and compensation from her to punish her that they paid to everyone who did drink their KOOL Aid.
What a fucked up place that nest of vipers is. And Amanda Beno Marsh Lohman is the queen pit viper.
But…she is really good at manipulating people to get her way and she runs her very own Pity Industry to promote the memory of the man who killed his crew through criminally reckless negligence.
And of course she loves to be the center of attention. And she has done a great job, she has the rest of those bitches (non gender specific) following her every whim as their command. It is sick…sick…sick!
Oh…and one more thing. RTS did a great job being a friend and support person for Marcia McKee and he helped her negotiate what was a very difficult thing for her to do.
Especially while being surrounded by either strangers or unfriendly people who were drinking the Kool Aid.
So…shame, shame, shame on both El Estupido and the former Mrs. Eric Marsh for conspiring to use his public office of authority and trust to defraud Mrs. McKee the same right everyone else had to have the emotional support person of her choice help her make it through a heartbreaking ordeal.
Gary,
Thanks for the kudos about the YH Fire / GMHS Family Staff Ride.
It was rough indeed and felt that it was WAY too early for that kind of event.
The deck was clearly stacked against me as well with most of the cadre and several of the GMHS family, friends, and loved ones making it clear that I was unwelcome there
In spite of all that, I felt it was a worthwhile experience because I was able to clarify some key details at several of the Decision Points during the day
Gary,
Thank you for the kudos about the YH Fire / GMHS Family Staff Ride.
It was rough indeed and felt that it was WAY too early for that kind of event.
The deck was clearly stacked against me as well with most of the cadre and several of the GMHS family, friends, and loved ones making it clear that I was unwelcome there
In spite of this, I felt it was a worthwhile experience because I was able to clarify some key details at several of the Decision Points during the day
Thanks Joy for that link to the Irish wild land fire going on in Northwest Ireland. You see that hundreds of Irish citizens went out to fight the fire–that is they were not hindered by a legal system –no one got hurt but that fire covered a large area. I could not help but think if Yarnell had been an Irish town how soon that fire would have been out. You know that the Irish would have got up onto that fire like gang busters and had it out whether the local Fire Fighting educated fire fighters would do it or not. There would have been no hesitancy on the part of the Irish to defend their property and well being–no such thing as letting something get out of hand just because the dummies at Yarnell could not agree whether it ought to be taken care of or not. That should have been a given–and just as in Ireland where the people are just as involved in taking care of a fire as their firefighter crews. Maybe I saw that attitude in my dear old Dad–he did not jump in his truck and drive to town to hunt up a fire fighter to ask if they would take care of lightening strikes that were ready to expand into a full fledged wild fire. As soon as he saw smoke, he yelled at me to grab a shovel and pick and we were on our way up the mountain to take care of those lightening strikes, and we did.
So now we know the rest of the story is going to come out–the facts that those videos did not lie–and I am ever reminded of Gary’s statement–that’s what we do we burn. And that makes the sense except who would have known that Marsh would go against all good reason and order his crew down into the trap despite all good reason. He had to have known those burns were going on and so did every other boss with the radios blaring. So Donut was seeing sparks across the road and those winds were whipping the trees and driving those embers up the mountain with the advance in expressway speed.
I should think that if indeed the back burns did kill those GMHS, the guys doing the burning had no idea that Marsh would be attempting to outrun the fire with his crew. That the truth was and is being hidden from public view is the greatest tragedy. One thing it robbed the loved ones of their right to know and it also caused them to accept meager sums for the wrongful death of their loved ones. The state was not only pinching pennies it was attempting to keep the truth hidden so the FS would come out in the best of public view. It took some nerve to give out awards for that Yarnell performance by the men in charge.
And Mrs .Marsh, though had no fault in the actions of her ex, she did keep up the front–but I do think she must have been privy to the real truth. That will bear hard upon her to have to admit to living the lie–but who is to say–people sometimes become so deluded they believe their own BS–and especially those that want to live the life as a victim. Well she got her 15 minutes of fame–too bad it was not living in the truth of that disaster–same goes for Donut? Who among all these has not gained from their delusions?
It sounds like Joy is ready to unleash — the cat is screaming to get out of the bag and that is the way it should be. It would be that even I had some guilt at the death of those men–I thought damn, we were right there where they went down–could I have said stay the hell out of that death trap? I do realize that would have been a joke–a citizen trying to tell those educated and trained wild land fire fighters what to do. A laugh to be sure. Yet that cowboy McKensie, who had lived the area for fifty years did just that. He told them that morning now you boys don’t get trapped down there in that manzanita when that fire takes off. He did not need the education and training to know better than getting trapped–it was a useless and stupid action with a fire that an army could not have halted.
Yet those those that knew Marsh was a risktaker must carry some burden of conscience unless they had made a report of his devious behaviour. I say devious because to risk your crew’s lives needlessly and carelessly with only regard to aggrandizement is a devious situation. But I am not one to say except it was obvious he was in the wrong occupation.
Joy is a fighter–she won’t be bullied–for that I am certain. Her Irish genes give her stamina and the will to survive against all odds. I certainly have a smile on my face to those that are dumb enough to take her on. They will end in defeat–truth always wins and old Karma comes after those that follow the crooked path.
To add a bit to the story early on one of the fire bosses posted that Sonny and Joy ought to be sent to the penitentiary for being up there on the fire edge. I wonder how many Irish in Ireland would laugh at him because he would have to send half of Ireland to the Penitentiary for being on the fire lines. The Irish must see things a bit differently since hundreds went out to fight the fire in Northern Ireland. I suspect that very fire boss is one of those that believes a citizen has no right or purpose to stop wild land fires. But I am of the opinion that in a free America if it stands to reason and a person wants to risk his ass in helping to stop a fire–as long as it is his own–go to it. I know Joanna of Prescott News had a thing against one of the reporters because he would hike in and take video of the men working–Hell yes I say–what are the FS and Hot Shot Bosses afraid the public might see? The right of the press was infringed at Yarnell–it was said that some of the Yarnellites did not want their homes burnt down exposed to the public eye. What rubbish to keep out the press–and the FS and State Officials are more than willing to neglect the rights of press to keep themselves from being exposed.
Consider that Joanna’s husband was or is a fire fighter–how they influence the press. How about a little unbiased press be allowed to operate. But then I could understand why the Prescott news was eager to promote the GMHS–their homeboys that could do no wrong.
Charlie,
You make many good points on the blatant (mis)management of the YH Fire in general and the GMHS specifically.
I agree with you that “… now we know the rest of the story is going to come out.” Yes we do know that.
However, the SAIT-SAIR noted in several pages quite the contrary. This statement from one of the many SAIT Subject Matter Experts (SMEs) in August 2013 is interesting and verifies .
“ We have so much evidence that we cannot and will not ever release” about the YH Fire and the GMHS stated a highly experienced YH Fire Investigation SME (August 2013)
These are the many SAIT-SAIR excerpts on the SAIT arrogantly confident shielding the truth from the FFs, WFs, and the American public.
“Because we do not know, and will never know , many of the precise details surrounding the final movements and motivations of the Granite Mountain IHC …” (SAIT-SAIR p. 45) (emphasis added)
“Although we will never know for sure, we considered how the Granite Mountain IHC might have reasoned …” (SAIT-SAIR p. 47) (emphasis added)
“Although we will never know the answer to this question, it is worth asking: …” (SAIT-SAIR p. 48) (emphasis added)
“We will never know for sure, but we wondered whether the Granite Mountain IHC’s decision to hike through the green might have seemed to them to be a decision to operate in the green just like everyone else.” (SAIT-SAIR p. 52)
(emphasis added)
“We will never know if the crew understood that this route of travel required that they sacrifice some of their capacity to serve as their own lookouts.” (SAIT-SAIR p. 54) (emphasis added)
“We will also never know if they understood the calculated risk involved in traversing the final distance to the Ranch without the level of situational awareness that a different vantage point might have afforded.” (SAIT-SAIR p. 54) (emphasis added)
The truth is coming out little by little, so stand by because we WILL know the “who, what, when, where, and why”
It is very heart warming to know that RTS, Joy, Gary, Woodsman, Norb, WTKTT, John D.,just to name a few of the heavy hitters have begun to unravel the SAIT-SAIR lies and cover up. Omission and half truths have been their “NEVER KNOW” and “INFORMATION WE WILL NEVER RELEASE” and is equivalent to conspiracy and I would imagine the Rico Act. Gary would know the legal possibilities they should face. The truth is obviously held back to defraud the loved ones and to placate certain individuals determined to make their failure at Yarnell look like a heroic and outstanding effort by the FS and its Firefighting regime.
It is indeed sad when you have men in an occupation bound to investigate and tell the truth that the Loved Ones, the Public, and all Firefighters and Citizens should know. But it is wonderful to see that the best of the best among wild land fire fighters and concerned citizens have exposed the ugly coverup. I do not know what more the FBI, Congressmen, and people of high standard need to go after these buggers.
Thanks RTS for those photos you recently posted–that is in the area right below the Helms there and at 4:24–was that about a half hour before the men were killed? Good Lord, if so then it stands to reason from my view that the spot fires were either from the Shrine burn or they were actual burn outs in progress right there. I can see why the FS does not want the Media watching–their fuck ups are royal and deadly. Should they be exposed then they would have to make some extreme changes including demoting, expelling and even criminally charging a number of the culprits.
Of all the investigators- there were two that did seem above board –those two we hiked and later recommended the highest fine to those responsible for this great boondoggle that resulted in the deaths of the GMHS crew. You can bet the system moved them out of the investigative business. Bruce should have sued them for getting hurt on the job. Bret was I understand moved to a desk job–he was an excellent hiker and they both deserved promotions.
RTS thanks for the video post on the Taliban incident killing the 7 young soldiers. There is so much similarity –good Lord–abandon the high ground to situate in a trap just as the GMHS crew abandoned the high and in the black to take up a death trap. Who could not know that the camp situation was where they could easily be surrounded by the Taliban on the high ground and in a situation outpost that was as needless and useless as the men of the GMHS would be at attempting to protect houses with an Atomic Bomb energy burning situation they were in complete observance of all morning long. It defies logic and good sense –the doe doe that takes a knife into a gun battle.
To many leaders are thoughtless when it comes to how to keep their men alive. Certain in all cases of Battle the men controlling the high ground have the advantage in a battle zone. Yes we planted the flag at Iwo Jima but look at the cost in lives to get that high ground. Stay in the black when the odds are against you and your men are apt to die. Houses are a poor excuse for killing men–those Pulaski’s do well making line but once the Fire Devil and Big Dog Eat–time to move to Safety.
Sonny,
You make many good points on the blatant (mis)management of the YH Fire in general and the GMHS specifically.
I agree with you that “… now we know the rest of the story is going to come out.” Yes we do know that.
However, the SAIT-SAIR noted in several pages quite the contrary. This statement from one of the many SAIT Subject Matter Experts (SMEs) in August 2013 is interesting and verifies .
“ We have so much evidence that we cannot and will not ever release” about the YH Fire and the GMHS stated a highly experienced YH Fire Investigation SME (August 2013)
These are the many SAIT-SAIR excerpts on the SAIT arrogantly confident shielding the truth from the FFs, WFs, and the American public.
“Because we do not know, and will never know , many of the precise details surrounding the final movements and motivations of the Granite Mountain IHC …” (SAIT-SAIR p. 45) (emphasis added)
“Although we will never know for sure, we considered how the Granite Mountain IHC might have reasoned …” (SAIT-SAIR p. 47) (emphasis added)
“Although we will never know the answer to this question, it is worth asking: …” (SAIT-SAIR p. 48) (emphasis added)
“We will never know for sure, but we wondered whether the Granite Mountain IHC’s decision to hike through the green might have seemed to them to be a decision to operate in the green just like everyone else.” (SAIT-SAIR p. 52)
(emphasis added)
“We will never know if the crew understood that this route of travel required that they sacrifice some of their capacity to serve as their own lookouts.” (SAIT-SAIR p. 54) (emphasis added)
“We will also never know if they understood the calculated risk involved in traversing the final distance to the Ranch without the level of situational awareness that a different vantage point might have afforded.” (SAIT-SAIR p. 54) (emphasis added)
The truth is coming out little by little, so stand by because we WILL know the “who, what, when, where, and why”
Joy has some new information and is fact checking now for veracity. Good to be like WTKTT and Joy–strict attention to details and fact. I deal in lots of suppositions–maybe it is part of enjoying the twilight zone–I do think the Psychics have something going and we do have an intuition that keeps some of us on our toes and alive–at least as long as this life will allow. Sadly when some of us begin to mature it is just when the grim reaper comes knocking at our door. The Leprichaun, Karma, and the Reaper are all in Cahoots while the Irish Gods and Jesus, et. al. stand by and watch the show to see how things play out.
But the intuition that day was in me and my urgency was a life saver. So many things we did not know that were going on, yet it has to be a certainty that Marsh and Company had to have the input data. There is a value in instinct and intuition–it has saved me in many instances and listening to your gut feelings can be a valuable trait. There were several times when working as an underground miner I had instinctively jumped back just enough to keep myself from being transferred into a non-edible pancake. You can kill me but you can’t eat me. So I believe it was with Steed that day. He did not want to take his men down yet he let his gut instinct be overridden by a forceful Marsh, again et. al. I do surmise. The fire gods and goddesses are not to be questioned.
Well if Joy does much good, she also sometimes leaves me in suspense–I must continue the novel, though it is written in blood of young wild land fire fighters, to see how it plays out. I have been a side-liner on the bench but then that is where I belong–willing to enter the fray yet not capable or with the abilities of the main players here on Investigative Media. But I can cheer them on since I am of heavy heart for the deaths of those young heroes and I do know the concerns of the men who are the mentors of the young ones doing their job in the danger zone. They indeed are veterans at war as much as the warrior facing Isis in a fire fight.
There will be closure and no matter how well the truth is hidden for so many years, there are youngsters coming of age. Most will not tolerate the lies and BS that has abounded to cover up the true reasons for the deaths of their parent. There are a few parents that are not fooled as well. If there is one thing investigators enjoy, it is that they have a part in the revelation of truth and the closure it brings to the loved ones. No matter how much loved ones might say they just want to move on and let the FS and Fire fighting profession be seen through rose colored glasses, the truth is–in the recesses of their minds they want to know the real reasons for their loved ones tragic ending.
Gary burned a thought in my mind–that is what we wild land fire fighters do–we burn. Yes burn baby burn, so I was thinking of how many crews that were involved in the Yarnell Incident–I am certain you would need more than ten fingers to count them. Maybe Joy has a count–and how many were involved in back burns that day? I would be thinking as Trueheart had been noted by WTKTT–Trueheart’s obvious worry they would get themselves caught in a deadly burning situation–right in the questioned Shrine burn out area. I have no question that is what he meant, I saw the video of the drip torching in that area and if they were doing it near the Shrine in plain sight, then Gary’s statement–that’s what we do stands true.
Those that failed to keep the wrongdoing hidden are coming to exposure. But then it is only a matter to man up and change the way things have evolved into such habits of pasting glitter over these deadly incidents rather than exposing each one in truth so that the system improves–and now if you think the system is working well enough then you are the dummy–not the “hillbilly” Cowboy that said do not get trapped in that Manzanita with that fire nearby.
Donut’s referral to the rules as “hillbilly” was a misnomer. A “hillbilly” Mr. Donut , with a hole in your head, had better sense than to disregard the rules, –he advised to follow the rules and stay in the safe zone where there was no sensible and safe alternative. But then you can educate men–for example Marsh and Steed with the finest of teachers–RTS or Gary–and the training and education goes in one ear and out the other of such folk–they have their own ideas and stubbornly adhere to them without regard to proven wisdom–until they kill their crews and even themselves as shown in the Yarnell incident.
FYI…I am dumbfounded and speechless about what I learned last night and dumbfounded. So…I have to go back on sabbatical and write some more on my book because you know…the fuckin’ thing isn’t going to write itself. And think about things because I’m dumbfounded and speechless and dumbfounded.
You know…that all indicators right now point to the fact that a friendly backfire may have killed our crew.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=QGEdc6HxhVA&list=RDQGEdc6HxhVA&start_radio=1
Or perhaps you’re in the mood for something a little more upbeat? “Sadness like water raining down…raining down”
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=1b9-pjEgEZc&list=RDQGEdc6HxhVA&index=18
Negative. Both too squishy for me
Among other things, mostly my faith and trust in Jesus Christ, these are some of the videos and testimony that inspire me to carry on to reveal the truth about the YH Fire and the GMHS
“Medal of Honor recipient, and the battle that stays forever”
( https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6GDANpZrulk )
“Michael Thornton, Medal of Honor, Vietnam War”
( https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tc1KrzKavns )
the kindness and generosity I have seen from the fire industry- the intelligence – the integrity – I hope it shows as the rest pours out…
I know when I am called home…I know I had the chance to be taught and to laugh—
thank you for that. ...
I have no fear going forward…
My advice to this generation:
Tell the truth…. to yourself first …then to the world
Kayiden, good luck on your meeting – SHINE
that is a lot of people to speak in front of no matter who you are or no matter the topic…
Engage lovingly, thoughtfully and faithfully …
stay away from backward telescopes…
Do not get flummoxed as my pops would say when on that stage.
for anyone who was figuring why I stayed in this thus far…
accountability before God and about how God may work that accountability through human beings…
when I saw peoples’ motions quickly and antiseptically towards me on the aftermath of the YHFire…and also when I hiked them – as some murmured their thank-yous and scuttled the hell away..I knew people came to this aftermath with much judgments…These people did not want to know more about me. They wanted to talk at me and about me and pray at me. Prayer should be a loving act, not a weapon of discounting one another….
There is too much ugliness because of the venom spewed from others which are false.
Gary and RTS- I am going to email you what Jeff Whitney wrote about you with a loved one- you deserve to know that….what you both do with it i up to you but I am tired of holding on to certain areas.
Thank you so much.
Although since Jeff and I are both not only alumnus hotshots from the Mighty Coconino, we are both former Coconino Hotshot Crew Bosses. so…I’m sure it will all be good?
Oh fuck me! Does everyone remember how bitterly I complained years ago because people are always spelling my last name OlsEn?
Do I look Norwegian to you? Well do I? Of course not…because I am obviously SWEDISH!
Far too many people think all of us PEOPLE, you know….Scandinavian Nordic types look alike. What’s up with that?
And you really need to work on your photo resolution Joy. I mean, I really appreciated your efforts but…
It looks like they spelled Fred’s last wrong too. But you know…that’s certainly understandable. Am I right?
I mean, C’mon…Schoeffler? That’s perfectly understandable.
Now I have to figure out how to post this info on my website.
Although based on a quick read…it looks like (Namaste) Jefe was trying to tap that…know what I mean?
I mean…Hotshot Crew Boss Brother Eric Marsh was barely cold in the ground. What’s up with that?
In fact…I strongly suspect Namaste Jefe DID tap that, know what I mean?
OMGosh…Joy said, “remember I pulled everything…I even have Whitney’s dining and hotel and etc receipts and so when I pulled everything even texts and emails you get to learn the BEHIND THE SCENES…sad that Amanda placed false stuff out on you and RTS”
Joy…as I have written many times…you are indeed a national treasure! And just like the Energizer Bunny, you just keep going and going and going…
God Bless America! 🇺🇸
It’s a great day to be me!
I mean…is this a great country or what? The Arizona Department of Forestry and Fire Management – Office of the State Forester Jeff Whitney…civil service at its finest!
Okay…this was a royal pain in the ass because I transfer words slow and type even slower, but since all of you are indeed among my closest friends and confidants…I did this one special for you so you didn’t have to wait for me to get everything on my website.
“Thank you for sharing Amanda, so noted. Pls do not feel embarrassed nor apologetic for your feelings particularly in view of your sense of place where you and Eric celebrated and where curiously we found ourselves last night. You know I support you and value your friendship. Namaste, Jefe”
OMGosh…I think I found the real life model for Wild Heat (Hot Shots: Men of Fire Book 1) Kindle Edition
by Bella Andre (Author)
4.4 out of 5 stars
Logan Cain is Jefe Whitney in real life!
“Wild Heat” $20.17 (from Amazon, also available on Audiobooks and Kindle)
The love that Jefe Whitney and Mrs. Eric Marsh shared…priceless.
HE’S A HOTSHOT FIREFIGHTER ADDICTED TO RISK. SHE’S THE SULTRY BEAUTY HE NEVER SAW COMING.
Maya Jackson doesn’t sleep with strangers. Until the night grief sent her to the nearest bar and into the arms of the most explosive lover she’s ever had. Six months later, the dedicated arson investigator is coming face to face with him again. Gorgeous, grinning Logan Cain. Her biggest mistake. Now her number-one suspect in a string of deadly wildfires.
Risking his life on a daily basis is what gets Logan up in the morning. As leader of the elite Tahoe Pines Hotshot Crew, he won’t back down from a blaze-or from beautiful, lethal Maya Jackson. She may have seduced him with her tears and her passion, but it’ll be a cold day in hell before Logan lets down his guard again. Until Maya’s life is threatened. With his natural-born hero instincts kicking in, Logan vows to protect the woman sworn to bring him down. And as desire reignites, nothing-not the killer fire or the killer hot on their trail-can douse the flames….
https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/6060450-wild-heat
What a World Class Dildo…Whitney co-opted the title of;
El Jefe (f. La Jefa) is a Spanish term meaning “the chief” or “the boss” and may refer to: “El Jefe”, a less-common nickname for former Cuban President Fidel Castro (deriving from his title as Comandante en Jefe or “Commander-in-Chief” of the Cuban Armed Forces)
El Jefe – Wikipedia
To use as his nickname and to play off his name…Jeff, because you know, he’s “the Chief” or “the Boss”, or maybe both at the same time…get it? How fuckin’ clever he is, what a smart little man!
What a Dick Wad Guy: Hey did you see that dude over there? Me: Yeah. He’s a dick wad · #jerk#asshole#mean# douche#no.
https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=dick%20wad
Oh…and one more thing Joy, you know I was just teasing you, it all looks great! Thank you a million times over!
Memo 📝 to the Chief, El Jefe:
You know Jefe…sometimes if you fuck with the bull…you get the horn.!
In other words;
A veces, si follas con el toro el jefe, obtienes la bocina.
Or better yet El Jefe;
A veces si follas con el toro, obtienes el cuerno! Estúpido (Asshole)
you are welcome.
Neither one of you deserved to be spoken about like that. Shame on them.
Hallelujah! Can I get an amen?
SOME of their thread? C’mon…the reading was just getting good. Please…please….please, pretty please…with sugar on it!
welcome to my world Gary.
As I began to peel the layers of this I was confused especially certain entities connections
why?
I then knew if it was all revealed on IM- it could vanish so I made sure if I am alive or the others involved that if something was to happen to me or them- it will be from external others or my health is and has not always been the best…I mean who last resorts to drinking actual Timber Rattlesnake and Bushmaster venom three times a day as I have this year. But either way it is coming out even if they harm me or others around me. I already set the dominoes to do just that.
I have asked many on so many levels to help those who will be affected and forgive them.
This was always done to gain facts and truths and I always got WTKTT on what is laid publicly out there but there is so much behind the scenes I have said over time that it sickens me they can sleep at night.
The information that comes out will be actions firefighters normally do that was done June 30 2013 –
when a guy asks the right questions and gets a strange answer let that be watchout number 30…
it is up to 30 now if you have been out of the loop…PJ Lingley (Bear Jaw Hotshot Asst Sup/My S130 S190 instructor) had a few add-ons to the 18 and since more have added to it…when Community Risk Reduction Division Chief Don Devendorf stated to me May 5, 2016 13:00pm “it means as an industry we made note of another five ways to injure or kill wildland firefighters.”
I agree with Don Devendorf… I am bold enough to walk the walk and get the changes to happen versus keep adding numbers to a list. Unless the number is to my Christmas List which for 2019 Gary is on my list. (weird wink….question mark)
I am sorry Pfingston has to see her name on IM like such…it would seem it is enough to lose a son than to have email content placed to the world. I have a lot in my records on the loved ones and I currently am having it fed to the legal system how some of the areas can be presented to the world so people of the social media misrepresenting can be shown to the world what has gone on behind the scenes…So even though this was placed out without me knowing there is much more information to still come out involving the behind the scenes of certain select people tied to the GMHS.
I pray that person(s) cease the behaviors public and private because the rest is coming out even if someone on the SAIT recently stated to me outside the conference less than a minute event happened and if he is telling YOU something different this is exactly what happened- Hey “SAIT GUY”, why did you spew at “him” like that.” and he replies six seconds later “I am not having this conversation.” and I stated “you do know I am coming out with the rest of the story, right” and a few seconds later quickly he stated twice “I am not having this conversation.” within ten seconds he says in fast tone motion “I am asking you to leave me alone”…”leave me alone” as I am overlapping his words saying “okay I get that- but don’t spew in a public fashion (he repeats over my voice calmly “leave me alone”…and he said quickly stated “did you hear me say that?”…”leave me alone” “do I need to get a restraining order against you?” as I overlapped and said “you have no right.” as he looked at a FF (leave his name out) and said “did you hear me ask her how many times.” I replied “No, you did not have to say it redundantly in two seconds- come on “SAIT guy” …”wait until it all comes out and you look like a fool…” as I walked away I mention some DC content so he is in the loop….I did nothing to this man and this freaking topic of Restraining Orders in the aftermath of the Yarnell Hill Fire has been used and abused my way inappropriately and it ends. I will not be bullied by these silly tactics and people being ok to place that on my record- that’s on them but hey it is wrong. What judge would take that above content which was reality…and tap me with a restraining order? This fella one year ago gleefully wanted to hike with me at same conference. It was the next conference after that where it shifted Hmmm….wonder if a certain person helped that shift? The topic he spewed off about – one presenter said what data would one like to see in reports and I will let RTS give his 1st hand reply/experience and then I was told at the bay shore that this man in back of room said Bullshit Fred when Fred said THE TRUTH is what’s lacking in reports…I prefer to leave the SAIT guy’s name out but Fred is his own person and I will not guide him but I keep it out for my sharing experience. I do not need the bullshit but that is what happened since the fella seems to think that less than 1 minute public talk deserves me to get a restraining order…so sad.
Again…all the bullying is over. Everything is set to happen… You want to tell your story than the time is now because once I do officially I have said on IM for a long time you had your chances and I never hood winked one person…they are all in the loop. I gave you all the chance and I did that because it really belongs to YOU to tell it purely and tell it purely because I documented this well and placed all data in right spot that if at any time they went rummaging on me…the data is not on me. A trick my pops taught me when he worked for Sheriff Joe A.-
Trying to orient myself –where exactly are those spot fires RTS posted? Would they be toward the Shrine area. I had to chuckle about Joy and her straightforward manner–tough girl to deal with when someone wants to hide what she knows. What in the world would make you think those fellows that lied will own up to it? They are guilty of omission and commission but with their feathers in their hats and many awards for good deeds, how would you think they could man up to the truth when they have so adamantly adhered to the lies–for example Marsh is a hero? Well perhaps to a dud wild land fire fighter who believes that the proper thing is to call the rules of safety “hillbilly” and the real heroes do as they damn please without regard to the safety of their “Greek God” total confidence man to lead them down into hell. Jim Jones had people brain washed enough to take poison and die with him so they could met Jesus in Heaven–if they did I wonder what Jesus had to say.
So good luck Joy, but I know you were confident the people in the wrong that you confronted would develop a distaste for your exposure of the game of lies and deception and that also would put you in the black out zone among certain circles–something you have had from the beginning.
For instance I never understood how you were kept for support and information involving the movie–your photos above 1500, unrivaled knowledge of the events that killed the GMHS crew and your direct contacts with not only the many wild land fire fighters you interviewed and hiked, as well as personal friendship and acquaintance with nearly every citizen of Yarnell should have made you one of the most important consultants to any movie or book for that matter. But then too the journey of the wild land fire incident to the major powers that be has never been a journey of truth-but it instead had degraded into a journey of egotistical bastards willing to commit perjury at the expense of wild land fire fighter safety. Not enough can be said to shame the coverup when so many people were willing to go along with the lies and follow the Amanda story as the grieving widow–understandable but do it with the truth about Mr. Marsh and how he did carelessly kill his crew.
Human Factors excerpts worth considering.
“The great risk management guru of the 1940’s, Dr. Archand Zeller stated: “The human does not change. During the period of recorded history, there is little evidence to indicate that man has changed in any major respect. Because the man does not change, the kinds of errors he commits remain constant. The errors that he will make can be predicted from the errors he has made.”
From Gordon Graham FBINAA Continued Training http://www.lexipol.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/07/Rickover-FBI-NAA-14.pdf
“Good judgment comes from experience, and experience comes from bad judgment.”
Barry LePatner
“A review of fatal avalanche accidents involving avalanche-aware victims in the 1990’s shows that human factors are not just a contributor to the accidents but are the primary factor in fatal accidents.” In addition, judgment or lack thereof was the most common human error in both aviation and avalanche incidents.
“The problem is not a lack of information regarding wildland fire fuels, weather, and topography, but is instead the problem is how that information is processed. What interfered with the decision-makers’ judgment at the crucial moment?”
Beighley, M., 1995. Beyond the Safety Zone: Creating a Margin of Safety. Fire Management Notes. Volume 55, Number 4. 21-24.
I”n Psychology, there is a common theory called the Principle of Commitment and Consistency. If people commit (verbally or in writing) to an idea or goal, they are more likely to follow through with it. That is the essence of the Principle of Commitment and Consistency. Humans will often agree to do something if they have already shown evidence that they believe this way. Even if the original incentive or motivation is removed after the agreement, humans will continue to follow through.”
David Goleman (2012) Ten Things You Should Know About Your Brain And Leadership
http://www.thespacesproject.org/ten-things-you-should-know-about-your-brain-and-leadership
Here is a transcript copy of the letter obtained from a Public Records Request and discussed below at these links:
( https://www.investigativemedia.com/please-begin-yarnell-hill-fire-chapter-xxvi-here/#comment-478025 )
( https://www.investigativemedia.com/please-begin-yarnell-hill-fire-chapter-xxvi-here/#comment-478037 )
“From: Deborah Pfingston [email address]
Sent: Thursday January [28 or 29], 2015 7:53 AM (time ?)
To: Reuben Orozco
Subject: Re: Yarnell Fire
“Thank you for including me on all you and your group’s hard work. We have been very busy trying to right some injustices and it has been a battle.
“In this section in your closing you state:
“’In closing, we would like to consider the unofficial rumor that GMHS were coerced into leaving a good black safety zone to move to the ranch. Had the GMHS been adequately trained in reading the fire’s next dangerous move, they would not have made the fateful decisions that led to their deaths. If all the firefighters had been equipped with the proper assessment training, Marsh or anyone else would not have been able to convince them to make the choice that they did.’” (THIS ENTIRE PARAGRAPH WAS ALL BOLDED AND IN QUOTES IN THE ORIGINAL RECORD)
“I am not sure how comfortable I am with the comment about ‘adequately trained’ because I know that GMHS had not received all of the weather information. No matter how much training you have if you are not given all the facts it can lead to mishap. I will leave the ‘coerced’ fact to the Lord – I pray He convicts the men’s hearts who know the truth.
“I do have a request (if possible) I know that there is a software program that can build then show fire progression based on input. Would it be possible to work with this software and put in the fire information that we have about Yarnell and see if it predicts the growth of this fire [that] they state?
“I stand firm that there was a back burn that came up that canyon. It was this fact along with the weather change that the IC never sent out because they were busy evacuating that caused the death of Granite Mountain. Yes there were all the facts that your group has so brilliantly shown but please lets not lose sight that we are still fighting for the complete truth.”
“If you have any questions or need anything further let me know. I look forward to the opportunity to see the software.
“God is so good – [may] His peace guide you,“
Thanks for the background. Even if they don’t have it figured out, that sounds like one powerhouse group of FIRE brain power and experience. I mean…they don’t have HAL 9000, but still…
And are you saying you that believe that Pfingston has it figured out with this bold statement, or she only thinks she has it figured out? Because if you are saying you believe she has it figured out, you are confirming you believe without equivocation that a back fire did kill the crew and not the main fire?
“I stand firm that there was a back burn that came up that canyon. It was this fact along with the weather change that the IC never sent out because they were busy evacuating that caused the death of Granite Mountain.”
Because you know…I think YOU know everything that happened that day, so if you are saying you believe Pfingston has it figured out without equivocation, ergo I’m pretty much going to take that check to the bank to at least see if it bounces or not?
Elementary my Dear Watson!
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=lag22Hl2RQw
So…have I finally built a cage around you, you slippery guy you!
I guees that shoukd have been a question mark and not an exclamation mark…just you know…FYI!
Wow! I GUESS that SHOULD have been a question mark and not an exclamation mark! My proof reader has got to go!
Ye Olde Gary,
I need your help. I could use the assistance of a former Senior Special Agent, Supervisor.
Since I believe a crime or crimes took place surrounding the events of 6/30/13, and the standard for prosecution is beyond a reasonable doubt because it’s a criminal matter and not civil, which standard would be the preponderance of evidence (51%), I need help explaining myself.
There is direct and indirect forms of evidence which can corroborate the existence of events which occurred as material facts in a case. Since I’m dusting off my recollection of the rules of evidence, can you help put into simpler terms what I’m speaking of?
My train of thought is that “the big bad fire did not come & get them” nor do ” bad things sometimes happen to good people.” Overt acts and/or negligent acts occurred which killed 19 firefighters on a wildfire in the single worst disaster on record.
Beyond the criminal matter is of course civil liability, which I believe is also a significant elephant in the room.
Please help me hash this out. Your assistance is greatly appreciated!
Hmmm. This is going to require some serious thought 💭
She stated many things that we have been abiding by and heeding in order to discover and reveal the many hidden truths about the YH Fire and the GMHS:
“I will leave the ‘coerced’ fact to the Lord – I pray He convicts the men’s hearts who know the truth.”
“Yes there were all the facts that your group has so brilliantly shown but please lets not lose sight that we are still fighting for the complete truth.”
The “complete truth” is often very difficult for some to deal with it and – in the end – it’s still the truth, as painful as it may be.
WE have been and “are still fighting for the complete truth.”
Woodsman put it quite right because it is “calling a spade a spade. … A lack of independent free-thinkers in our business has led to what we still have today: cognitively dissonant cowards & hypocrites enabling managers protecting their own interests and burying firefighters while wrecking loved ones lives. The dim view of life is astonishing.”
“In order to properly deal with something you must call it what it is.”
Gary,
Based on all that I know so far, I do believe and hereby allege that the GMHS were killed by “friendly fire” from a firing operation for many reasons dealing with the Lookouts, Communications, and Escape Routes components of LCES.
Her recently revealed statement as “fact” merely strengthens that firing operation account with her: “I stand firm that there was a back burn that came up that canyon. It was this fact …” She is pretty convinced herself with both “I stand firm” AND “It was this fact …”
The rest of her statement: “… along with the weather change that the IC never sent out because they were busy evacuating that caused the death of Granite Mountain” is what I disagree with.
The “weather change” was a minor causal factor. They had the best view of the fire, the weather, the fire behavior, EVERYTHING – except Air Attack. However, AA had all those aircraft radio distractions visually and audibly in their headsets and all around and below them.
For sure, the GMHS had their own distractions …
But they friggin’ argued and discussed “their options” and watched the fire below them for at least “52 minutes” —- “52 MINUTES!” — while the incrementally increasing fire weather intensely increased the fire behavior EXPONENTIALLY – and according to Air Attack Bravo 33 – the fire burned through that death bowl and up through that saddle above them more intensely than he had ever witnessed in his career.
( https://www.nwcg.gov/committee/6mfs/escape-routes1 )
RTS,
“Based on all that I know so far, I do believe and hereby allege that the GMHS were killed by “friendly fire” from a firing operation for many reasons dealing with the Lookouts, Communications, and Escape Routes components of LCES.”
I appreciate you calling a spade a spade. You went for it. A lack of independent free-thinkers in our business has led to what we still have today: cognitively dissonant cowards & hypocrites enabling managers protecting their own interests and burying firefighters while wrecking loved ones lives. The dim view of life is astonishing. Thank you for doing the right thing and dealing with what you have to to do it.
“In order to properly deal with something you must call it what it is.”
Well okay then…I guess that pretty much lays it out? And all I can think of to say right now is…OMGosh!
Oh…and one more thing.
Thank you.
And no…even if it is proved to be a 100% accurate fact that satisfies even WTKTT’s fact based conclusion process, there is nothing that can ever absolve Eric Marsh of his ultimate responsibility for the deaths of his crew due to his reckless and criminally negligent decisions and subsequent actions.
And by the same logic…Jesse Steed is guilty of the same crime except if I were on the jury, I would use my prerogative to declare “not guilty” based on jury nullification. And jury nullification can happen due to a lot of factors that have nothing to do with guilt or innocence of the accused. It can be a factor simply because a jury member does not like the law, or the color of tie the prosecutor wore during his closing argument.
And if we get down into the weeds, there remains the fact that Steed was the crew boss and not Marsh at the time the fatal decision was made, therefore Steed is guilty but Marsh isn’t, but I maintain Marsh never relinquished control of the crew to Steed because he was Eric Marsh and everything that entailed.
I’ve reconsidered addressing the “S” prong of LCES above, so I’ll do it here.
This is from a paper titled: “It Could Not Be Seen Because It Could Not Be Believed on June 30, 2013” regarding the “lunch spot” causal factors on several fatality wildfires.
( https://link.springer.com/chapter/10.1007/978-3-319-94391-6_22 )
“2.2 Consequences of Inattention – Fatality Fires and ‘Lunch Spot’ Nexus Theory
“Additionally, the multi-fatality South Canyon (1994), 30-Mile (2001), and YH (2013) Fires shared a common element when the WF disengaged to a designated ‘Lunch Spot’. In this setting, due to numerous physiological and psychological circumstances, e.g. fatigue, stress, dehydration, alcohol-related impairment (hangovers), diversions, distractions, interruptions, etc. – time essentially stood still. In each of these above noted tragic wildfires, when the WF reengaged, they were evidently unmindful of basic wildland firefighting training and evident fire weather and fire behavior markers favored staying put. They were so engrossed with “discussing their options” of staying put or reengaging, they ceased observing more pressing tasks, like weather. They let go of strategic management for less serious, less vital events, i.e. strategy omission [20].
“Credible research on attention found when someone is otherwise engaged, at times they fail to “see” otherwise noticeable, fully visible, – yet unexpected objects or events, i.e. ‘inattentional blindness’ (IB)”. A likely severe result is that it can sometimes lead one to miss items that one wanted or, more importantly, needed to experience [21], [22]. If one’s attention is set for a certain number of primary-task items and the offered items meet their expectation, the individual may be more likely to exhibit IB for an unforeseen and yet likely critical visual event [21], [22].
“This may help make some sense of why the GMHS and others faced and then reacted to this obscure hazardous phenomenon.”
The Wildland Fire Non-Lessons Learned Center actually posted on this very same “Lunch Spot” issue, however, with a slightly different, more subtle angle.
“The Lunch Spot Spring 2014, Volume 4, Issue 1” (never have been able to get the WLFLLC links to work on IM)
“When the smoke is churning and we’re slamming line, the physical location of the Lunch Spot often coincides with a decision point. It’s commonly a spot offering a safe place to take a tactical pause. It might not always take place while the crew is eating, but the decisions made in those moments can literally determine life and death.”
“So What?
“So what? Is this moment in time on a fire even significant? Obviously, with hindsight, we can argue it is significant. It might not go down exactly as described or always take place while the crew is eating, but these conditions and the decisions made in those moments can literally determine life and death. So what usually happens? Maybe a conscious decision about strategy is made or a casual request for assistance comes across the radio. Maybe we just notice a way we could be of use—and BAM—the afternoon action is on.
“The Conscious Decision
“The conscious decision about strategy sounds something like:“Hey, let’s gear up and head back to the trucks; looks like we are going big box on this thing.”That usually gets a few hoots and a grin or two—the likelihood of big burn shows and 16’s just went way up. We’ll prep anything you want for a chance at the torch.
“Obviously, the conscious decision could come in all different forms. … Either way, it’s an intentional action—based on the observed conditions. Often times, a change in strategy calls for a tactical relocation. In those moments we think about efficiency and how we can contribute. We weigh options and make a decision based on what we currently know.Maybe we head off to a ranch. Usually we make it to the ranch, sometimes we barely make it to the ranch, and once in a great while we become proof that this work environment is way more complex and dangerous than we are willing to acknowledge.”
______
“Because of our history, those two words have come to represent a critical decision point. It’s the small window we have to put real thought into: What we’re facing; What really matters; and What we’re willing to risk. So let’s use it.
“Are We Heading Off to Repeat History?
After the shock of Yarnell Hill and all the other tragedies of 2013, we—as the Wildland Fire Service—are currently at the “Lunch Spot”.
________
“I’m terrified we’re not acknowledging the gravity of the situation, not using this pause to genuinely take stock of what we are facing. Does what we’re doing make sense? I’m afraid we’re going to gear-up with good intentions and unknowingly head off to repeat history.”
Really? “Terrified we’re not acknowledging the gravity of the situation”
The vast majority of WFs have acknowledged it, are not terrified, and continue to carry on safely and efficiently doing their “inherently dangerous” jobs very effectively.
Like I said, I consider them the the Non-WLFLLC because of this kind of fatalistic attitude and conclusions.
And that’s what happens when we have Incomplete Lessons Learned from cover-ups and lies instead of Complete Lessons Learned based on fact and the truth of what Human Factors and Human Failures caused these wildland fire fatalities.
It certainly was NOT fuels, weather, topography, and fire behavior. There are a lot of people that get it and they are definitely making ore of a positive impact that the Non-WLFLLC.
Check out Matt Holmstrom’s Common Denominators on Tragedy Fires – Updated for a New (Human) Fire Environment.
( https://www.iawfonline.org/article/common-denominators-tragedy-fires-updated/ )
Reply to Robert the Second ( RTS ) post on April 22, 2019 at 1:09 pm
>> RTS said…
>>
>> Here is a transcript copy of the letter obtained from a Public Records Request
————————————————————————————————-
From: Deborah Pfingston [email address]
Sent: Thursday January [28 or 29], 2015 7:53 AM (time ?)
To: Reuben Orozco
Subject: Re: Yarnell Fire
( snip )
I stand firm that there was a back burn that came up that canyon.
It was this fact along with the weather change that the IC never sent out because they were busy evacuating that caused the death of Granite Mountain. Yes there were all the facts that your group has so brilliantly shown but please lets not lose sight that we are still fighting for the complete truth.
( snip )
————————————————————————————————–
It is absolutely NO SECRET that Deborah Pfingston ( biological mother of deceased GM Hotshot Robert Caldwell ) has always believed there was a manual ‘back burn’ that took place in Yarnell on Sunday, June 30, 2013.
She came onto this ongoing public discussion way back on April 12, 2014 and flat-out said so.
https://www.investigativemedia.com/yarnell-hill-fire-chapter-vi-comments/#comment-24173
—————————————————————————————————
On April 12, 2014 at 8:11 am, Deborah Pfingston said…
Thank you for doing this digging for me.
I have theory – of which I have had many but discover they won’t work –
I really think there was a back burn set possibly by the trailers.
Thoughts!
—————————————————————————————————
She then went on to ask for any information about ‘crews’ or ‘engines’ that might have been out at the extreme west end of ‘West Way’, by the Jerry Thompson lookout location.
She also said she had (quote) “lots of research” of her own on this ‘burn out’ possibility.
The only mysteries have always been what HER ‘original sources’ were… and if she ended up discovering things herself that are still not ( yet ) publicly known.
** APOLOGY
Okay… REALLY bad TYPO ( and brain fart ) in the message just above.
Deborah Pfingston is the biological mother of GM hotshot Andrew Ashcraft… and NOT Robert Caldwell.
My sincere apologies for that.
I do wish we could ‘edit’ these posts after hitting ‘send’.
WTKTT,
Thank you for the post and the opportunity to go back to former 2014 posts with photos and videos from Dropboxes as well. LOTS of good discussion and good information for what we know now.
Pfingston posted: “I really think there was a back burn set possibly by the trailers.”
I’m not quite sure what she means by “the trailers” other than those FFs and / or WFs that were trailing behind the rest of the other FFs and / or WFs performing (manual) hand ignitions.
AZ Forestry Jake Guidiana (sp?) stated in March 2019 that they watched the June 30, 2013, smoke columns from those alleged burn outs all day.
Moreover, also learned in March 2019, that the “one other” noted in the SAIT-SAIR is / was BRHS Will Trahain (p?) that worked with BRHS HEQB Cory Ball that day.
So…RTS my old friend, surely you know that you are indeed one of my dearest and best friends from back in the day? I’m sure you remember how close we were at one time and I for one…would like to see that close relationship blossom yet once again before this veil of tears is finally lifted you and I can pass to dwell in the eternal fire camp together, at least once in a while for old times sake?
That being said…I’m sure you will agree that no important or meaningful matter should remain a secret between us when it comes to our shared passion and of course our common desire and commitment to see truth, justice and the American way rule the day when it comes to the YHF Disaster? And even though I have debated greatly within my own soul whether or not to dare to ask this question, I have decided that I must because you are so plugged in to the WLF Matrix due to the fact you are so respected as the longest serving and assuredly one of the living legends and great hotshot crew bosses of all time, you know…for the ages.
Is the reason you keep coming back to the possibility that a friendly backfire may have emerged from the Shrine area, in addition to your commitment to not only endorsing but giving your full, enthusiastic, and unqualified support while rising to not only defend but to promote our precious Joy’s important and impressive work on her website, in spite of WTKTT’s negative response to date just because he insists there is no evidence to support her insistence that such a backfire did in fact not only occur, but that dreadful event was actually responsible for the deaths of our crew because you know that it be true from your reliable and trustworthy sources of information (SOI’s) within the WLF community and you have been trying your best to communicate that to us, in spite of my recalcitrant and inexcusable attitude and failure to get with the program, which of course I apologize for and feel terrible about, without actually coming right out and saying as much so as to maintain your vow of confidentiality to your SOI’s and that is the Great Secret…Hmmm? Well…is it old friend?
Oh…and one more thing. I just want you to know that I have turned my life around and I now fully support our President…Donald J. Trump and wish him all the best while I spit on progressives and the Mueller Report except for the parts where it fully exonerates our Dear Leader, no collusion…no conspiracy. God Bless America!
Whoops…I fucked up the messaging and talking points, my bad!
No Collusion…No Obstruction! God Bless America and President Donald J. Trump! 🇺🇸
Gary,
Thanks for the kudos My Friend. Not so sure on the well respected part from many WFs because of my stance on the YH Fire and the GMHS. “Just let it go, leave it alone, you’re dishonoring the dead, etc.” is what I often hear.
This has got to be THE longest sentence I have ever read: “Is the reason you keep coming back to the possibility that a friendly backfire may have emerged from the Shrine area, in addition to your commitment to not only endorsing but giving your full, enthusiastic, and unqualified support while rising to not only defend but to promote our precious Joy’s important and impressive work on her website, in spite of WTKTT’s negative response to date just because he insists there is no evidence to support her insistence that such a backfire did in fact not only occur, but that dreadful event was actually responsible for the deaths of our crew because you know that it be true from your reliable and trustworthy sources of information (SOI’s) within the WLF community and you have been trying your best to communicate that to us, in spite of my recalcitrant and inexcusable attitude and failure to get with the program, which of course I apologize for and feel terrible about, without actually coming right out and saying as much so as to maintain your vow of confidentiality to your SOI’s and that is the Great Secret…Hmmm?”
Did you even take a breath on that one?
The June 30, 2013, Sesame Street and Shrine Corridor Firing Operation is and was a very real, very probable event that occurred and was viewed and documented by many.
I was referring to the WLF who value the lives of the next hotshot crew who will eventually join our dead from the El Cariso (12) Mormon Lake (3) and Prineville Hotshots (9). And now, those from the worst disaster in hotshot history, the dead NINETEEN Granite Mountain Hotshots more than they do, well…I’m not sure what the others could possibly value more than the lives of our dead from the next crew who will eventually join our hotshot disaster roster?
I have found a certain clarity and appreciation for life did come with the years that I would like to share with others I love and pray can can eventually join us. Because being a retired WLF is really a good life. 🙂
(People are only so interested in hearing my story and when they ask…I claim WLF status because that is always were my heart has been).
Because there is one thing I am very sure of…once is an anomaly, twice is a coincidence, but three times is definitely a pattern. There will be a next time…it’s just a question of when it will happen not if it will happen. 🙁
Historical Footnote, I like to include the 9 Prineville Hotshots who were burned to death on the South Canyon Fire which is commonly called the Storm King Mountain Fire so we don’t forget them. But they were under the direct supervision of the Incident Commander who was the [Smoke] Jumper-in Charge of the fire at the time of the disaster. Hotshot culture doesn’t give Squad Bosses the status to directly challenge Incident Commanders, especially when they are also the JIC since the WLF culture does give so much deference to smokejumpers.
And yes, I really outdid myself with that run on sentence…I think I might have set a new personal best? 🤔
Thank goodness we have been joined by so many people (non WLF) who care as much as we do and have contributed so much to this historical record.
Oh…and one more thing. Thank goodness for John Dougherty and Investigative Media because without him, we would not have had a voice. I do believe most of the answers are here on this thread and I have to believe before it is all over…all of the answers will be here for future generations. 🇺🇸
And just one more thing. I don’t know which WLF you are referring to Fred, but the world is full of people who talk the talk, but you walked the walk no one else did and very few WLF who have ever saddled up to hump up the mountain could have walked. So…fuck them and the ponies they rode in on. This is for them…dry. 🍆
There are lots of WFs with that attitude.
I feel that we are honoring the fallen by revealing the truth and exposing the lies while “they” and their ilk are dishonoring them with their cover-ups and whitewashes and blatantly false, predetermined conclusions.
After all, “The Team found no indications of negligence, reckless actions, or violations of policy or protocol” in their “Factual” Serious Accident Investigation Report (September 28, 2013 SAIT-SAIT page 10 ) where the readers are told to come to their own conclusions.
What a sick and twisted joke …
Joy A Collura says
APRIL 20, 2019 AT 1:40 PM
Your comment is awaiting moderation.
Please use this link to participate in keeping the site existing by donating here:
htt ps: //ww w.investigativemedia.c om/
Please support independent investigative journalism by making tax-deductible contributions to the Arizona Center for Investigative Journalism, an IRS-approved nonprofit corporation.
h ttp: //arizonawatch.org/donate/
Sometimes his link is down but I strongly suggest to contact him and let him know if that happens.
https://ww w.investigativemedia.co m/contact/
also—
WHAT ARE THESE?
I see them on every page?
Why have you not joined that Gary to pull your own webpage to here with the ad slots?
In the history of IM I have donated a lot of funds and I have no income.
How about the pension of yours— help keep the page not just afloat but going strong.
Also what is this:
Your ads will be inserted here by
Easy Plugin for AdSense.
Please go to the plugin admin page to
Paste your ad code OR
Suppress this ad slot.
Reply to Joy A Collura post on
April 20, 2019 at 5:08 pm
>> Joy A Collura asked…
>>
>> Also what is this:
>>
>> Your ads will be inserted here by
>>
>> Easy Plugin for AdSense.
>>
>> Please go to the plugin admin page to
>> Paste your ad code OR
>> Suppress this ad slot.
That just means that a recent software upgrade is now automatically inserting a ‘template’ that COULD be used to display an ‘AdSense’ advertising image in that ‘square’… but it has not been ‘implemented’.
As it says…
“Paste your ad code OR Suppress this ad slot”.
No ‘ad code’ has been implemented… AND the ‘ad slot’ has NOT been supressed. The same template that now comes with the software upgrade is still just sitting there visible on the page.
Hallelujah! Can I get an amen? AMEN!
Reply to Robert the Second ( RTS ) post on April 19, 2019 at 12:51 pm
>> RTS said…
>>
>> The June 30, 2013, Sesame Street and Shrine Corridor Firing
>> Operation is and was a very real, very probable event that
>> occurred and was viewed and documented by many.
Which is it? Very REAL… or still just very PROBABLE?
Those are actually two incompatible “levels of verification”.
Has to be one or the other.
You have stated your reasons for “protecting your sources” many times, and I totally respect them… but you know me… always ready to “probe around the edges” and see what ( if anything ) can be publicly known.
So I have a question.
If there really is actual “documentation” regarding this event… can you simply confirm what TIME it took place that day?
WTKTT,
You make a valid point on the “Very REAL… or still just very PROBABLE” question. I agree with you that they are “actually two incompatible ‘levels of verification'” and that it “Has to be one or the other.”
I mentioned the probable based on what some FFs, WFs, and other people have concluded based on the suggestive evidences presented by the multiple photo and video images of separate and distinct smoke columns (plumes).
Based on metadata from June 30, 2013, photos and videos as well as FF and WF anecdotes of those on the fire, the best estimates on the timing of the Sesame Street and Shrine Corridor Firing Operation were sometime after 1615 (4:15 PM).
This is also based on the Brian Lauber photo series (1629 – 4:29 PM) and the recently discovered ABC News 15 photo at 1631 (4:31 PM).
And the fact that the only other evidences of that firing operation were based upon the July 2013 Yarnell Hill Fire Library video witnessed by over 20 WFs, FFs, and citizens indicating actual firefighters ‘wearing Nomex and using drip torches, and in an area in The Shrine where the rock wall was visible.’ This was also viewed on YouTube for a time until BOTH of these mysteriously disappeared (as so many YH Fire records have).
The “real” evidence is based upon those sources that wish to remain protected (i.e. FFs, WFs, and citizens) that were actually involved and / or provided evidences in the form of photos, videos, audios, and / or anecdotes.
Hopefully, some of these folks will feel comfortable enough at some point to change their minds about their anonymity and / or there will be more FFs, WFs, and citizens that were involved or have records and evidences that come forward and begin posting on this IM site.
I have no idea where this will post because I clicked on the reply link below your post and it to the bottom of the Chapter XXVI.
This is a newly discovered Arizona Republic / azcentral photo that I came across that adds to the plethora of suggestive evidence.
Here is a link to an article written in August 25, 2013 that clearly shows a photo of separate and distinct smoke columns in the Sesame Street and Shrine Corridor. It’s near the very bottom of the article.
“Vanessa Purdy took this picture of the Yarnell Hill fire approaching her home just minutes before she received an immediate evacaution notice on the reverse 911 system.”
( https://archive.azcentral.com/news/arizona/articles/2013 0807yarnell-hill-fire-rebuild-hope.html# )
Hopefully, this link will work because the one I originally posted did not.
( https://archive.azcentral.com/news/arizona/articles/20130807yarnell-hill-fire-rebuild-hope.html# )
Reply to Robert the Second (RTS) post on
April 20, 2019 at 11:31 am
>> RTS said…
>>
>> Hopefully, this link will work because the
>> one I originally posted did not.
>>
>> https://archive.azcentral.com/news/arizona/articles/20130807yarnell-hill-fire-rebuild-hope.html#
That link works. Thanks.
Yes… I have seen that photo before… at the ‘last house’ in Glen Ilah right alonside the driveway that leads out to the Boulder Springs Ranch. The Purdy home was completely lost in the fire.
There is a SECOND ‘Vanessa Purdy’ photo taken from that exact same location, at that exact same time, looking even more ‘northward’ than the first one ( and back towards the Shrine Road area ).
That ‘second’ Vanessa Purdy photo is still here, accompanying this article…
OUTDOORSTORMS.COM
Article Title: Yarnell Hill Fire
Published: ( Unknown date )
Last Modified: 05/21/2017
By: Tom Dolan
http://outdoorstorms.com/yarnellhillfire.htm
That ‘second’ Vanessa Purdy photo is the TWELFTH one down, in the series of photos that appear under the article.
Here is a DIRECT LINK to that SECOND ‘Vanessa Purdy’ photo which accompanies the article listed above..
Notice the ‘timestamp’ of 4:30 PM in the image filename itself….
http://outdoorstorms.com/images/YarnellFireImages/YarnellSequence_FireSpread_430PM_TDolan.jpg
Also notice the FIFTH photo ( from the top down ) in that article above.
It is credited to ‘Kurt Florman’, and it shows the fireline coming across that ‘middle bowl’ at exactly 3:36 PM, just 5 minutes after Byron Kimball’s SECOND weather alert over the TAC channel.
It was taken from an elevated vantage point in Glen Ilah, looking BACK north at the fireline now ‘racing’ south across that ‘middle bowl’ and straight for Yarnell and Glen Ilah.
And YES… those ARE the two ‘white’ Granite Mountain Crew Carriers there in the lower left corner of the photo, still sitting where they were parked in the Sesame clearing area.
Just moments after this photo was taken, Brian Frisby would then accidentally ‘stumble’ across Brendan McDonough evacuating his lookout position ( obviously in the nick of time )… and the process of then MOVING those Granite Mountain Crew Carriers began.
Here is a DIRECT LINK to that ‘FIFTH from the top’ photo I’m talking about now…
http://outdoorstorms.com/images/YarnellFireImages/YarnellSequence_FrontReversal_336PM_TDolan.jpg
WTKTT, thanks for the additional Yarnell resident photos indicating a firing operation.
This is an interesting addition to the verification of an actual firing operation.
I came across this from a Public Rescords Request about a January 28, 2015, email from Deborah Pfingston to Reuben Orozco “RE: Yarnell Fire” where she acknowledges that there was in “fact” a firing operation (no telling where she got her information}
“I STAND FIRM THAT THERE WAS A BACK BURN THAT CAME UP THAT CANYON. IT WAS THIS FACT ALONG WITH THE WEATHER CHANGE THAT THE IC NEVER SENT OUT because they were busy evacuating that caused the death of Granite Mountain. YES THERE WERE ALL THE FACTS that your group has so brilliantly shown but please LETS NOT LOSE SIGHT THAT WE ARE STILL FIGHTING FOR THE COMPLETE TRUTH.” (EMPHASIS ADDED)
Citing from IM article: Yarnell Hill Fire Investigation Ignored Major Mistakes by the State. October 17, 2013 By John Dougherty
“The report “is a shell game in so many ways that it does a disservice to what we know about fire management,” says Paul Orozco, a retired U.S. Forest Service fire-management officer who participated in the investigation into the deaths of four firefighters in the 2001 Thirtymile Fire near Winthrop, Washington.”
Orozco was a member of a group of former WFs addressing the issues of the YH Fire in order to prevent any further WF fatalities.
Reply to Robert the Second (RTS) post on
April 21, 2019 at 9:19 am
>> RTS said…
>>
>> WTKTT, thanks for the additional
>> Yarnell resident photos
>> indicating a firing operation.
I ( me, personally ) am in no way ‘suggesting’ that is what the photograph(s) ‘indicate’. I was just making sure you were aware that there has always been more than just ONE photograph taken at that Vanessa Purdy residence/location the afternoon of June 30, 2013.
>> RTS also said…
>>
>> This is an interesting addition
>> to the verification of an
>> actual firing operation.
It is, in fact, an ‘interesting’ photograph… but again… I ( me, personally ) do not know WHAT it may or may not ‘indicate’ and/or ‘verify’.
The annotated text on the photograph itself says it indicates how (quote) “Spot fires quickly developed ahead of the main fire”..
Whether that is based on actual eyewitness information coming from the person who took the photograph… or just a ‘guess’ on the part of the person publishing the photograph… I ( me, personally ) do not know.
WTKTT,
Both photographs indicate suggestive evidence of the Sesame Street and Shrine Corridor firing operation on the afternoon of June 30, 2013
Deep-six entirely your use of the term “suggestive evidence” for sheer weakness & inaplicability. It’s junk.
Work within the terms corroborating & circumstantial in order to make meaningful progress in the development of the theory. Repeated use of “suggestive” makes you sound like you don’t have much confidence in your position and isn’t used in these situations anyway.
Woodsman,
Yes sir. Copy that. And point well taken on the use of that feckless term.
It was one I borrowed from Alan Sinclair at the March2016 Central Arizona Wildfire Response Team (CAWRT) RT-130 Refresher
( http://johnmacleanbooks.com/yarnell/sinclair.shtml )
Please forgive me for my indiscretion. I must have been caught up in the moment or something
Any other points of preference that you’d like to bring up … just let it on out Brother
Does anybody know who Reuben Orozco’s group is and where their information is stored? For some reason Deborah Pfingston thinks they have it figured out.
Thanks for understanding that I’m trying to help. I’d just say go for it. The photo showing 2 distinct fire fronts is a whopper. Clearly 2 separate fire fronts came from somewhere. They both can’t be the main fire front. Therefore one is a ground ignition (which is reasonable & known common practice in wildland firefighting). No suggestion required – it’s corroborating evidence of ground ignitions.
The multitude of personnel documented in the area in question with the tools and capability of initiating ground ignitions is strong circumstantial evidence. The statement from True in the video of “making sure people arent burning themselves out, GD!” is more strong circumstantial evidence of ground ignitions having occurred in the area.
And so on and so forth.
Thanks, friend.
Gary,
A quick post here to advise that I will post an answer above since this has no more “reply” options left other than how we’re doing it
Moreover, Orozco’s group has no official name. It was / is a group of six retired USFS Fire Staff, Managment Officers, and two Hot Shot Crew Superintendents with each one having over 30 years of wildland fire experience.
I question whether this group had it “figured out.”
However, I do believe the Pfingston has it figured out with this bold statement:
“I stand firm that there was a back burn that came up that canyon. It was this fact along with the weather change that the IC never sent out because they were busy evacuating that caused the death of Granite Mountain.”
Interesting article with a chart showing the number of WLF fatalities in the U.S. from 2007 – 2016.
https://qz.com/1470741/the-blazes-californias-wildland-firefighters-are-battling-now-are-the-future-of-the-golden-state/
Although on closer examination, it looks like their chart is way off for 2013 even though they quote the National Interagency Fire Center statistics, so I have to question the rest of the article. For one thing, they say all hotshot crews work for the U. S. Forest Service…so never mind.
Although I am going to order this book since the guy is a professor of Sociology now and a former WLF who did his thesis on the crew he worked on. So…it should be accurate and enlightening?
On the Fireline: Living and Dying with Wildland Firefighters
Matthew DesmondNovember 15, 2008
University of Chicago Press
1
Buy as GiftAdd to Wishlist
Free sample$4.20 $3.40 Rent$28.00 $15.12 Ebook
In this rugged account of a rugged profession, Matthew Desmond explores the heart and soul of the wildland firefighter. Having joined a firecrew in Northern Arizona as a young man, Desmond relates his experiences with intimate knowledge and native ease, adroitly balancing emotion with analysis and action with insight. On the Fireline shows that these firefighters aren’t the adrenaline junkies or romantic heroes as they’re so often portrayed.
An immersion into a dangerous world, On the Fireline is also a sophisticated analysis of a high-risk profession—and a captivating read.
“Gripping . . . a masterful account of how young men are able to face down wildfire, and why they volunteer for such an enterprise in the first place.”—David Grazian, Sociological Forum
“Along with the risks and sorrow, Desmond also presents the humor and comaraderie of ordinary men performing extraordinary tasks. . . . A good complement to Norman Maclean’s Young Men and Fire. Recommended.”—Library Journal
COLLAPSE
ABOUT THE AUTHOR
Matthew Desmond is a doctoral student in the Department of Sociology at the University of Wisconsin–Madison.
FYI, the two previous posts aren’t the non sequitur they appear to be because the book is mentioned in the article I told you “never mind” about reading.
The author even has a Chapter titled, “The Incompetent Dead”, which kinda reflects my thinking except for truly random accidents that are anomalies. I think almost all deaths and seriuis injuries can be traced back to human error, even if that human error was made when they received deeply flawed training in the case of the current fire shelter training.
And like RTS and Bob like to write, if people followed the rules, they wouldn’t end up dead except for very rare occasions.
Book Review/Compte Rendu
Matthew Desmond, On the Fireline: Living and Dying with Wildland Firefighters. Chicago: University of Chicago Press, 2007, 368 pp. $US 24.00 hardcover (978-0-226-14408-5)
In the wake of 9/11, firefighters became popular heroes. In addition to whatever role they, as one of several paramilitary occupational groups (police, border guards, coast guard), play in what Althusserians referred to as the repressive state apparatus, they also serve a protective function that requires that the mostly working-class men who typically fill such jobs willingly step into situations that everyone else should and does, at least if they are able, flee. How this happens, why such individuals ac- cept and deal with this kind of risk, is the central issue of this book. In the wake of 9/11 one might fear that this is going to be another celebration of unsung American heroes. There is no need to worry. Desmond’s pres- entation is full of respect for the men that were his research participants, but it is a thoughtful and at times critical analysis of the interactions be- tween the structuring structures of a specific masculine habitus, the per- ception and management of risk by the firefighters, and the bureaucratic cultures and institutions in which they are enmeshed.
On the Fireline is explicitly situated as an analysis of risk, especially how it is perceived and managed by rural working class men who fight forest fires in the hot, dry, American southwest. At its core is a focus on what the author calls country masculinity and how this fits in an al- most totalizing manner with the US Forest Service’s wildland firefight- ing bureaucracy. At one level the argument is quite simple. The answer to the question “why do wildland firefighters take such a risky job?” is that the country masculinity of the firefighters that Desmond worked with, studied, and writes about provides them with the dispositions, the habitus, that the firefighting bureaucracy needs. They find themselves reflected in the “organizational common sense” of the Forest Service. The institution itself does not have to work very hard to socialize these men into a reality in which firefighting is not perceived as overly risky if the rules of engagement are followed. It only needs to tweak them a little. Their combination of practical, technical skill, physical toughness, sense of individual responsibility, love of wild rurality, and eschewal of the etiquette of polite urban society comprises many of the values that are essential to being a successful wildland firefighter. Interestingly, Desmond emphasizes that the young men are not reckless on the job. They do not celebrate foolish acts of supposed bravery. They do, however, largely accept the notion that death and injury are for the most part the result of individual error.
The book succeeds on several levels. It is a highly readable, at times funny, very insightful, Bourdieu-inspired ethnography of country mas- culinity, and as such very useful for courses on masculinity. It is a fine example of how to apply structuration theory and, therefore, a good re- source for classes in social theory. It also offers a penetrating examina- tion of the logic of bureaucratic organization and the way it creates a common sense world in which blame is always individualized and thus diverted from the structural and institutional factors that may lead, in the case of wildland firefighters at least, to unnecessary injury and death.
Indeed, Chapter 8, a deconstruction of the official explanation of the death of a colleague from burn injuries caused by being caught in a fire is a great case study in critical thinking, as well as an indictment of the common sense understanding of a firefighter’s death within the US For- est Service. Finally, the book as a whole is a detailed exposition of the view that risk is a context-dependent concept.
The key theoretical concept employed by Desmond is Bourdieu’s habitus. It has, of course, proven to be very useful but it is well known that even though Bourdieu argued that any particular habitus had to be historicized, the concept lends itself more to synchronic than to dia- chronic analyses. This book does not totally escape the problems this generates. Marxian-influenced thinkers have held that one of the features of working-class culture that distinguishes it from bourgeois dispositions is its collective rather than individualist orientation. The country mas- culinity of Desmond’s rural working-class men is shot through with a kind of individualism, one that easily falls prey to blame-the-victim ex- planations. Some discussion of the characteristics of the political econ- omy of rural America that produces this perhaps unique working-class individualism would help here. Details of the family backgrounds of the key informants and workmates that form the subjects of the book are of- fered but some broader social, political and economic contextualization of country masculinity would add some dynamism to the interpretation. Contemporary country masculinity emerged from and in a particular set of circumstances and will transform as the circumstances evolve. The appeal of dangerous jobs to rural working-class men is undoubtedly somewhat influenced by the labour market opportunities open to them, as well as by their culture. In Distinctions Bourdieu argued that working- class culture was marked by necessity; ndividuals come to prefer that to which they are in any case limited. Some discussion of the limitations of the rural United States that generated the tastes and dispositions of Des- mond’s key informants would make their habitus seem less sui generis and free floating.
None the less, On the Fireline offers a thick and rich take on a par- ticular version of rural, masculine, working-class culture in the United States and how it fits with an institutional setting that requires young men to do dangerous work. It offers another example of how social sys- tems are unconsciously reproduced and thus helps us understand how and why young men willingly put themselves in harm’s way.
Wow…even though I have a minor in Sociology, this book might give me a headache to try and read it? Although if I am tracking the book review correctly and the book review tracks the book correctly, I think the author might be right on target?
Just…FYI.
Repeat…awaiting moderation?
And that is because as I have written many times. as a student of the Loop, Battlement Creek, South Canyon and Yarnell Hill Fies, I can track all of the hotshot deaths in history to the criminal negligent incompetence of three men, El Cariso Hotshot. Crew Boss Gordon King, Mormon Lake Hotshot Crew Boss Tony Czak, and Granite Mountain Hotshot Crew Boss Eric Marsh, in addition to the gross incompetence of South Canyon Incident Commander Don Mackey. All of whom were killed in addition to the hotshots they were responsible for killing through their incompetence except for King.
And of course in addition to the same exact primary cause of all the deaths in question, there were many contributing factors, most of which shared a commonality with every other fire. These included fire management, agency management, time of year, month and time of day, topography, weather, communications, and fuel to name just a few.
There were also the usual suspects present on every fire that included the Swiss Cheese Model, the Domino Effect, the Abilene Paradox, deeply flawed training, and most of all…hotshot hubris.
I really like the description of blue collar working class young men being attracted to WLF, I sure as hell know that is what I was and I still am in spite of the fact I managed to hold down a white collar (and BDU collar) job for 18 years
Although at least half of every hotshot crew I was on were either college students or college graduates, most of whom went on to white collar jobs themselves in just about every profession you can name. And many of those who didn’t, went on to make a career out of FIRE within the WLF community…AKA FIRE Industrial/Commercial Complex. 🙂
And many…just ended up getting ground up by The Machine. 🙁
Gary,
Thank you for augmenting and clarifying your post on the 2007 to 2016 WF deaths article.
This is an interesting and thought provoking video hosted by the North Atlantic Fire Science Exchange Published on Mar 5, 2018 titled:
“Are Firefighter Fatalities Normal Accidents?’” presented by Lloyd C. Irland, The Irland Group and Matt Carroll, U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service
( https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qd3bRYDiYB0 )
They talk about the comparable thread of similarities in military, maritime, and wildland fire accidents and incidents.
They conclude that the trend has been steady in spite of technology and other “things” to supposedly prevent them.
Wildland fire fatalities – like all fatalities – are inevitable due to human factors, human errors, and human failures. They can never be entirely prevented.
However, they can be reduced. They posit “A call to do something different, not the same thing better.”
The warrior quote at the end is insightful and derives from this book:
Blue On Blue: A History Of Friendly Fire
by Geoffrey Regan from New York: Avon Books. 258 pages, C$15.00 (paperback); Reviewed by Major the Rev. Arthur Gans
( http://www.journal.forces.gc.ca/vo4/no3/book-livre-06-eng.asp )
And an interesting parallel is the YH Fire rogue firing operation that several of us confidently allege that took place in the Sesame Street and Shrine as seen in the July 2013 Yarnell, AZ library video and on YouTube (both mysteriously and quickly vanished), former Yarnell Fire Chief Pete Anderson’s video confidently stating that this corridor was to be utilized “in case there was a burnout like this” (1:52 to 1:54)/
“In case there was a burnout like this.”
He knew there was a burnout and so do many others there that day! FFs, WFs, and citizens alike!
( https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UFObh-fNOl8 ), and numerous photos and videos posted on Joy A. Collura’s website
( http://www.yarnellhillfirerevelations.com ) as strong suggestive evidence indicated by very clearly identified separate and distinct smoke columns (plumes).
So then, when you think about it, it’s now worth considering that the GMHS may very well have been killed from a “friendly fir[ing]” operation that was not communicated to supervisors or adjoning forces.
Both Fire Order 7 and Watch Out 7 were compromised. However, you will notice that “adjoining forces” is not included in Watch Out 7.
Right on…I will check it out, thank you!
And while I am at it, I am going to pontificate while I chew on another favorite bone of mine as I expand on another one of my theories…or opinions.
And that is when the author of the above discredited article repeated the all to common literary trope by describing hotshots by writing, “At the top of the wildland firefighting hierarchy are the US Forest Service’s “hotshot” teams, the profession’s equivalent of military special forces.”
And if anyone has been following my thought process over the past few years (sigh…years!) you will know I object to describing hotshots as the “equivalent of military special forces.”
And this may seem like an unnecessary nuanced trip down into the weeds, but I think it is important because it goes to the very core of a hotshot crew’s mission while fighting wildfires, IMHO.
And that is because that erroneous analogy actually detracts from the very hard and complex work hotshot crews actually do, while at the same time, attributing the work of “nut sack lickers” i.e., smokejumpers, to hotshot crews.
I think smokejumpers are the “Special Forces” of the wild land firefighting world and hotshots are the “Army Rangers.” Now…that being said, no comparison of WLF to military units is ever accurate because as I have stated many times, fires can’t think or shoot back and they have to follow all of the laws of nature all of the time and therefore, wildfires are completely predictable and therefore we should win every time by everyone going home safely barring random, bizarre, freak accidents that are truly anomalies and not the norm.
But…most people including me use military comparisons when describing fighting wild fires all of the time, and those analogies are fair just as long as those who are making them, understand the nuances and can explain those slight differences to those to whom they are communicating. And none of them ever do understand what they are writing or saying…they just repeat the false descriptions they have already heard or read others incorrectly misuse.
And for the first time since hotshot crews were created, hitshots are getting a lot of press. I think it is due to the deaths of 19 hotshots on the Yarnell Hill Fire Disaster and all of the news coverage, books and movie that came in the aftermath, which is a horrible way to finally get the recognition hotshots deserve since they have been laboring in the shadow of smokejumpers for decades.
So…here is the bottom line, “The Ranger Regiment is the United States’ premier light infantry fighting force, specializing in raids and assault missions deep inside enemy territory.”
Whereas, Green Berets are referred to as the Army’s Special Forces and are less likely than are Rangers to participate in large scale missions or operations. Also included in this group of warriors are Navy SEALS and Marine Raiders who all fall into the category of “Special Operators”…I think?
Therefore, Special Operators are to the U.S. Military what smokejumpers are to the wild land FIRE Industrial Complex because they typically work in small teams on unconventional firefighting assignments in small teams.
And furthermore…Army Rangers are to the U.S. Military what hotshots are to the wild land FIRE Industrial Complex because they work in much larger groups up to what would be the equivalent of Battalions size strength on conventional large scale firefighting assignments.
In other words, smokejumpers typically fight the small inconsequential fires (unless they get away) whereas hotshots are reserved for the large fires that are callled either “Project” or “ Campaign” fires. Or at least that is what large complex fires were called back in my day.
There…I think I have officially beaten that horse to death, for the record. And now tye next time you either read or hear some author or journalist describe hotshots, they will compare them to Navy SEALS or Special Forces. Marine Raiders are a family new force and they are having their own recognition issues in the U.S. SOCOM.
And FYI…I do consider it my job on this thread to keep repeating, “Eric Marsh killed his crew as a direct result of his criminally negligent acts and decisions on the YHF Disaster.”
“Look, I have one job on this lousy thread. It’s stupid, but I’m going to do it, okay?”
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=YKjo9dldp2g
So…you are saying I may owe both Joy and Sonny big apologies for NOT buying into the “friendly backfire out of the shrine” concept?
“This is a bummer, man. That’s a, that’s a bummer.”
https://m.youtube.com/watch?t=0h0m0s&v=z-m9WgAdflY
Man…I really like that book reviewer I quoted above.
He wrote, “The book succeeds on several levels. It is a highly readable, at times funny, very insightful, Bourdieu-inspired ethnography of country mas- culinity, and as such very useful for courses on masculinity. It is a fine example of how to apply structuration theory and, therefore, a good re- source for classes in social theory. It also offers a penetrating examina- tion of the logic of bureaucratic organization and the way it creates a common sense world in which blame is always individualized and thus diverted from the structural and institutional factors that may lead, in the case of wildland firefighters at least, to unnecessary injury and death.”
Which is the same thing I mean to say when I write, “Life on the Happy Jack Hotshots at the Long Valley Ranger Station was like Animal House meets Lord Of The Flies at a Special Operations Forward Operating Base.”
You know…except he says it way better than I do.
Oh…and The Woodsman as well? He has been a big proponent of the “Friendly Backfire” theory as well.
See…yet another adaptation of the military analogy of “friendly fire.”
And may as well include this one as well since it has been discussed before in various forms.
“Sergeant Davis’s Stern Charge: The Obligation of Officers to Preserve the Humanity of Their Troops”
Shannon E. French (2009)
Journal of Military Ethics, 8:2, 116-126,
DOI: 10.1080/15027570903037926To link to this article: https://doi.org/10.1080/15027570903037926
“ABSTRACT: This article examines what it might mean for officers to be held responsible forsafeguarding not just the lives of their troops, but also the humanity of their troops. How shouldsuch a charge be understood, and can it be justified? Arguably, any experience of combat is anassault on the participants’ humanity. The idea that officers should try to shield their troops fromcombat altogether, however, is untenable, for reasons that are discussed (including the danger ofselective conscientious objection). Nor, it is argued, can officers guarantee or ensure that they willnever lead troops in conflicts thatviolate jus ad bellum criteria. If officers are to be held responsiblefor protecting their troops in any way beyond the physical, it must be against specific, severe threatsto their humanity that occur in the course of waging war. Candidates for threats of this kind areconsidered, leading to the conclusion that the greatest threats arise from jus in belloviolations thatdehumanize thevictim and degrade the perpetrator. The question is then raised whether officers infact can protect their troops from committing suchviolations, and the argument is advanced thatthe command climate officers create in their units plays a significant role in encouraging ordeterring serious transgressions of the warrior’s code.”
.You would owe me no apologies about the back fire at the Shrine–You know many times more about these things than I do but I did see that video and after I saw how the firemen do things it only stands to reason that area would have been back fired. Also the photos posted of two smoke stack separated by some distance and what I had seen where the fire had advanced too as we went over the Weaver’s makes me believe there was a backfire. I do not know if you had been to the Shrine, but if you had it would be nice to see what you might think a less educated wild land fire fighter would do considering the wind direction and need to clear that forage while the wind was away from Yarnell. That Ben Palm did just that on the east side and soon after he got his men stationed–Joy and I watched that one and she even attempted to go right to the fire edge as they were back fireing.
This may not post–seems I try to post and not sure if they are going somewhere since I do not see them after the post
Clarification,
I have learned almost everything I know about SOCOM from watching movies, so…
But, that being said, I think most Special Forces (Green Berets) are tasked to train friendly military units in Third World countries.
So…I think the direct equivalent of Navy SEALS is the 1st Special Forces Operational Detachment-Delta, commonly referred to as Delta Force, Combat Applications Group, “The Unit”, Army Compartmented Element, or within JSOC as Task Force Green, is an elite special mission unit of the United States Army, under operational control of the Joint Special Operations Command from the base next to my former home town, Joint Base Lewis McCord, which is the next door neighbor to Olympia, Washington.
So…I think the correct analogy would be to compare the smokejumpers to SEALS, Delta Force or Marine Raiders, although I certainly DO NOT MEAN TO IMPLY THOSE MILITARY UNITS ARE NUT SACK LICKERS LIKE THE SMOKEJUMPERS ARE…it’s…nuanced.
In any case, hotshots are the equivalent of “light infantry”, who are usually reserved for and utilized in, large scale, complex, interagency operations and campaign engagements, or Project Fires…IMHO.
Sonny,
I have a clarification question on what you posted here: “That Ben Palm did just that on the east side and soon after he got his men stationed–Joy and I watched that one and she even attempted to go right to the fire edge as they were back fireing.”
Are you referring to the June 30, 2013, YH Fire or the Tenderfoot Fire in June 2016?
Sonny,
Hopefully, you’ll be able to find this since it’s likely gonna post far away from your original post.
I have a clarification question on what you posted here: “That Ben Palm did just that on the east side and soon after he got his men stationed–Joy and I watched that one and she even attempted to go right to the fire edge as they were back fireing.”
Are you referring to the June 30, 2013, YH Fire or the Tenderfoot Fire in June 2016?
No…I would owe everyone an apology who has put that theory forward because I didn’t think it was possible.
But…I think I was wrong, After almost 6 years I now think anything was possible.
There is ONE thing I do know for sure though. The Yarnell Hill Fire Disaster left a lot of damaged people in its aftermath.
Here’s a research paper from the author that Gary cites above titled: Making Firefighters Deployable” by Matthew Desmond in 2010 in Qualitative Sociology (2011) 34: 59–77 DOI 10.1007/s11133-010-9176-7
( https://scholar.harvard.edu/files/mdesmond/files/pdf_0_0_1.pdf )
( https://scholar.harvard.edu/mdesmond/publications/making-firefighters-deployable )
“Abstract: Although sociologists have devoted a considerable amount of research to exploring high-risk organizations, they have not yet developed an adequate explanation as to why individuals working within such organizations place themselves in harm’s way and how organizations ensure they remain there. This article addresses this gap by analyzing how the United States Forest Service motivates wildland firefighters to participate in lifethreatening activity. Drawing on ethnographic research and content analyses of official documents, it describes the process by which firefighters come to develop a specific disposition towards risk taking, a disposition through which they view firefighting as an activity void of danger, and how this disposition maintains its shape, and even grows stronger, after confronting its biggest challenge: the death of a firefighter.”
“Keywords: Firefighting. High-risk organizations. Risk. Human error. Death”
“Since 1910, the year the Great Fires of Idaho and Montana killed 72, over nine hundred wildland firefighters have died fighting fire; most of them burned to death. [FN 1] From 12 to 22 wildland firefighters die every year. [FN 2] After a firefighter’s death, one question seems to
resonate above all others: What went wrong? Sociologists (e.g., Driessen 2002; Vaughan 1997), psychologists (e.g., Weick 1993, 1996), and journalists (Maclean 1992, 1999) have pursued this question, attempting to understand why firecrews break down. This article, by contrast, pursues a more fundamental set of questions: How are individuals working in hazardous occupations socialized by their host organizations to perceive safety, danger, and death? In this specific case, how are firefighters socialized to risk by the Forest Service, and what can that teach us about how high-risk organizations motivate workers to undertake life-threatening tasks? [FN 3]
_____________________________________________________________
“’So why do you think we have the Ten and Eighteen?” “For reason to fall back on,” J.J. observed. “Say somebody got burned, well, there’s an excuse. ‘Oh, it was broke,’ you know. ‘That’s why they burned up, ‘cause they broke the Ten and Eighteen.’ It’s an excuse to fall back on. You’ll never hear them say, you know, so and so burned up, you know, because of the truth. They’re not gonna say, ‘Well this person burned because we fucked up.’ They are gonna say, ‘Ah, they burned because there are all these rules, and they didn’t abide by the rules, therefore he burned.’ They’re not gonna admit they messed up, you know. No, they are gonna find an excuse. That way, they can get their ass out of trouble.’” [Footnote 9]
[Footnote 9] “Supervisors never criticized the Ten and Eighteen in this manner. In fact, the elites whom I observed and interviewed seemed to believe in the importance of these rules just as much as (perhaps more than) seasonal firefighters.”
______________________________________________________________
“Discussion
Firefighters prize competence and control above all other attributes and (contrary to most accounts) view aggression and courage as negative qualities. The distinctive mark of a good firefighter is his ability to know—not to test—his limits. Far from understanding risk as an avenue to a euphoric “adrenaline rush” or a route to acquiring masculine character, firefighters are socialized to view risk as something that can be tamed, safety as something for which they are personally responsible, and death as completely avoidable through competence. Although there is a long tradition of theorizing commonsense (Bourdieu 2000 [1997]; Geertz 1983), there are relatively few actual empirical accounts of the cultivation of collections of commonplaces deeply recognized, albeit rarely specified, that allow organizations to run smoothly and secure worker compliance. I have attempted to offer one here, demonstrating that the Forest Service acclimates firefighters to the perils of their profession by cultivating within them a belief that their job is no more dangerous than the next. When this belief meets its ultimate challenge—the death of a firefighter—the Forest Service reacts by minimizing hazards and exaggerating deviance, thereby allowing firefighters to distance themselves from the dead and the objective dangers of their job.” [Footnote 10]
The author is M. Desmond – Society of Fellows, Harvard University, 78 Mount Auburn Street, Cambridge, MA 02138,
Matthew Desmond is later sourced in the second link above as a John L. Loeb Associate Professor of the Social Sciences; 33 Kirkland Street, Cambridge, MA 02138.
Definitely a good article worth delving into and reading with good sources for future research.
it’s gonna be interesting where this post shakes out
I was looking for information on Fred Schoeffler’s lawsuit against the Forest Services for the (air-to-ground voice recordings and transcripts).
Is there any news on this? Is the lawsuit still in motion or did the “Big Green Pickle” shoot it down?
**
** IN ADDITION TO THE 30 FIREFIGHTERS KILLED IN CHINA, SEVEN
** OTHERS HAD TO “JUMP OFF A CLIFF” TO SURVIVE.
Still not a lot of details emerging from China regarding the recent horrific loss of 30 wildland firefighters all-at-once in Sichuan province, but we do know a LITTLE more.
1. The firefighters were not originally ‘airlifted’ up to the fire. They hiked in.
2. Apparently, the 30 firefighters died not while they were directly engaging the fire… but while they were simply ‘moving’ from one place to another ( just like Yarnell ).
3. In addition to the 30 wildland firefighters that were just killed all-at-once… it turns out that SEVEN other WFs had to “jump off a cliff” in order to survive the same burnover.
The following article about the additional SEVEN firefighters also has a good photo at the top of what the fire looked like from the nearest village, the morning they all ‘hiked up there’.
ECNS Wire
Article Title: Firefighters jump off cliff while battling blaze in Sichuan
Published: 2019-04-02 11:46:55 – By Gu Liping
http://www.ecns.cn/cns-wire/2019-04-02/detail-ifzfwnmy4091148.shtml
From that article…
—————————————————————————————————–
(ECNS) – Seven firefighters were forced to jump off a cliff as fire burst from a burning forest in the Liangshan Yi Autonomous Prefecture, Sichuan Province.
Sources from the Ministry of Emergency Management said 27 firefighters and three locals have been confirmed dead after battling the forest fire, which broke out Saturday at a remote spot in the mountains at an altitude of more than 3,800 meters.
A firefighter told the Beijing News that he was with a crew of seven members when a sudden change in wind direction caused the outburst.
“I couldn’t find words to describe the fierce blaze.”
Firefighters had to jump off a cliff to the other side of a mountain and several people were injured during the escape, he said.
A team sent by the ministry has arrived to coordinate rescue efforts.
—————————————————————————————————
**
** MEMORIAM
Hang on to your hat. The LIST below is heartbreaking.
Here are all the NAMES of the 30 wildland firefighters who just died, listed in AGE order from the youngest to the oldest.
Average age: 23 years old.
5 were younger than 20 years old.
Youngest: 18 years old.
May they ALL Rest In Peace ( and hopefully something has been LEARNED )….
———————————————————————————————–
Wang Fojun
Firefighter.
Born in July, 2000 – Age: 18 years, 8 months.
From Gannan prefecture, Minnan.
Xu Penglong
Firefighter.
Born in March, 2000 – Age: 19 years.
From Linyi in Shandong province.
Zhao Yongyi
Firefighter.
Born in December, 1999 – Age: 19 years, 3 months.
From Linyi in Shandong province.
Zhang Shuai
Firefighter.
Born in June, 1999 – Age: 19 years, 9 months.
From Linyi in Shandong province.
Guo Qi
Firefighter.
Born in June, 1999 – Age: 19 years, 9 months.
From Gannan prefecture, Minnan.
Kang Rongzhen
Firefighter.
Born in March, 1999 – Age: 20 years.
From Linyi in Shandong province.
Meng Zhaoxing
Firefighter.
Born in March, 1999 – Age: 20 years old.
From Jinchang in Gansu province.
Zhang Chengpeng
Firefighter.
Born in February, 1999 – Age: 20 years, 1 month.
From Binzhou in Shandong province.
Chen Yibo
Deputy Squad Leader.
Born in December, 1998 – Age: 20 years, 3 months.
From Qujing in Yunnan province.
Xìng Geng
Firefighter.
Born in October, 1998 – Age: 20 years, 5 months.
From Qujing in Yunnan province.
Li Linghong
Firefighter.
Born in November, 1997 – Age: 21 years, 4 months.
From Chengdu in Sichuan province.
Zhao Yaodong
Firefighter.
Born in October, 1997 – Age: 21 years, 5 months.
From Dingxi in Gansu province.
Zhou Peng
Deputy Squad Leader.
Born in July, 1997 – Age: 21 years, 8 months.
From Yichun in Jiangxi province.
Yang Ruilun
Firefighter.
Born in July, 1997 – Age: 21 years, 8 months.
From Southeast Guizhou province.
Ding Zhenjun
Firefighter.
Born in April, 1997 – Age: 21 years, 11 months.
From Luzhou in Jiangxi province.
Cha Weiguang
Firefighter.
Born in February, 1997 – Age: 22 years, 1 month.
From Dali in Yunnan province.
Cheng Fangwei
Squad Leader.
Born in January, 1997 – Age: 22 years, 2 months.
From Nanchuan district, Chongquing.
Gu Jianhui
Firefighter.
Born in January, 1997 – Age: 22 years, 2 months.
From Ganzhou in Jiangxi province.
Liu Daixu
Platoon Leader.
Born in October, 1996 – Age: 22 years, 5 months.
From Chengdu in Sichuan province.
Dai Jinkai
Firefighter.
Born in September, 1995 – Age: 23 years, 6 months.
From Chengdu in Sichuan province.
Wang Yaofeng
Deputy Squad Leader.
Born in September, 1993 – Age: 25 years, 6 months.
From Xiaochang in Hubei province.
Gao Jiyu ( Jiwei )
Squad Leader.
Born in August, 1993 – Age: 25 years, 7 months.
From Hanzhong in Shaanxi province.
Tang Boying (Li)
Deputy Squad Leader.
Born in July, 1993 – Age: 25 years, 8 months.
From Younchuan district, Chongquing.
Zhang Hao
Squad Leader.
Born in June, 1990 – Age: 28 years, 9 months.
From Xichang in Sichuan province.
Kong Xianglei
Firefighter.
Born in February, 1990 – Age: 29 years, 1 month.
From Honghe in Yunnan province.
Jiang Feifei
Squad Leader.
Born in January, 1990 – Age: 29 years, 2 months.
From Nanchong in Sichuan province.
Zhao Wankun
Instructor.
Born in December, 1980 – Age: 38 years, 3 months.
From Suining in Sichuan province
Local firefighting personnel…
Zouping ( Chuanlin V )
Staff.
Born in June, 1976 – Age:42 years, 9 months.
From Dazhu in Sichuan province.
Yang Dawa
Director of Forestry and Grassland Bureau of Muli County.
Born in August, 1972 – Age: 46 years, 7 months.
From Muli in Sichuan province.
Tuojin
Volunteer
Born in July, 1970 – Age: 48 years, 8 months.
From Muli in Sichuan province.
———————————————————————————————–
Horrors again–a dreaded reminder of the Yarnell deaths, young souls with their lives snuffed out like so many of their fellow wild land fire fighters.
I had been working on my screened porch– I am done with the corners so I can tomorrow do more–Now my strength wanned so am going to shower and mess with this computer this evening. . Did you notice the hundreds of towns in California that are listed and in deadly fire zones–it is a given that many of those homes will burn and more people will die–people are in harms way out there in too many places and truth is the homes will have to go–they best live in trailers. That way they can move their shit ever now and again when the fire danger is high or else let it burn an not worry too much.
The fire thing is a sham for the most part–you have to let the fires burn until they burn out especially when you have manzanita and other overgrowth that can not be stopped when in a wild fire burn.. It is absolute stupidity to risk men under orders where they are young and too naive to balk and when some of their bosses are apt to make stupid moves. Marsh and Steed knew better but went ahead and killed their men and themselves anyway. But that is men trying to make a name for themselves or perhaps on Marsh’s account he was intending to kill the men–all evidence of what he did against all good judgement and protestation by Steed, and that by doing what was known to be a killer act, something he would have known if he was a true hot shot fire fighter points to him as a mass murderer. Of course that is only a possibility and my opinion, but either way he should have went down in the books at minimum charged with negligent homicide of 18 men–Steed with 17 men and perhaps Marsh with suicide and homicide due to wreckless acts that killed his crew..
I know it is hard for some to swallow but the facts are out there proving that all safety rules were knowingly broken–that hundreds of wild land fire witnesses that have visited the area say that it indeed was not the proper proceedure and against good and reasonable action and should have been prevented.
These fires are now in the extreme -and common sense says that it is prudent to let nature take its course because it will anyway. Needless risking of men is a sham and show for the public eye and too much pleasing the public and trying to be the limelight hero is leading to unecessary killing of the young and naive wild land fire fighter.
Followup…
Something else that is now also known about the deadly Sichuan fire…
According to Shenzhen Daily, authorities have now said the CAUSE of the deadly fire was ( just like Yarnell ) a lightning strike.
Same article also reports that the original fire has now RESTARTED in the same area.
Shenzen Daily
Article Title: Forest fire in Sichuan Province starts again
Published: 2019-04-08 08:53
http://www.szdaily.com/content/2019-04/08/content_21605979.htm
From that article..
———————————————————————————–
A FOREST fire that killed 27 firefighters and three locals in Southwest China’s Sichuan Province a week ago started to burn again Saturday afternoon, local authorities said yesterday.
The 30 victims have been approved for recognition as martyrs by the Ministry of Emergency Management and the Sichuan Provincial Government.
Around 5 p.m. Saturday, the fire was found to have started in the northeastern part of the forest, according to the sources with Muli County, Liangshan Yi Autonomous Prefecture.
So far, 350 firefighters are battling the fire and an other 440 locals from neighboring towns have rushed to the site.
The area burnt by the fire is estimated to be 5 to 10 hectares, and is spreading due to windy weather.
The forest fire first broke out at around 6 p.m. March 30 at a remote spot in the mountains in Muli County at an altitude of over 3,700 meters. Local authorities dispatched more than 600 people to put out the blaze. After engulfing about 15 hectares of forest, the blaze was initially extinguished Tuesday.
A lightning strikehas been confirmed as the cause of the fire, local authorities said earlier.
The resurgence of the fire was caused by strong wind in the area, sources said.
———————————————————————————–
WTKTT,
Thanks for posting about this Chinese wildland fire that would likely have otherwise been missed.
Below are some excerpts from an article about their training, experience, and safety attitudes while “human factors” are mentioned as one of the causal factors by one official.
Veteran firefighter Liu Hutang, the former head of Forest Fire Prevention Command in Hainan province, south China, wrote in an essay on Tuesday which went viral on Weibo – China’s microblogging platform – that the government “prioritised fighting fires over the safety of [firefighting] personnel”.
“I have always called for the safety of personnel to be put first when fighting a forest fire disaster,” Liu wrote in the essay, which has now been removed from Weibo by censors. “A tree can regrow after it is burned down, but a person cannot be resurrected after they die.”
“Even though the Sichuan fire was caused by nature, human factors heavily influenced the outcome of the tragedy,” Liu told the South China Morning Post.
“I believe that it is the Chinese system which caused this [loss of life]. In democratic and law-abiding foreign countries, human rights are respected and they put human lives first. But our country puts economic profits in first place and human lives at the bottom.”
Another mainland fire services professional criticised the “culture of bravery” within the industry in an anonymous interview with WeChat media platform The Intellectual on Wednesday, saying it led people to overlook specialist safety training that could help save more lives.
“The biggest problem right now is that the investment is big and the equipment is good, but the training cannot catch up,” the firefighter said, adding that improved equipment may make some firefighters less aware of the risks of entering a fire zone.
The head of the Forestry Bureau in Muli county, where the blaze happened, Yang Renkui, told news site Kankan on Tuesday that all the “professional” firefighters who had been sent there had received “specialist training”. The county’s two firefighting units were set up in 2001.
However, Yang had complained to the more senior forestry bureau in Liangshan prefecture only last year that it was impossible to attract new talent to replace ageing firefighters, and that the equipment and firefighting techniques they used were outdated, Kankan reported.
China has about 130,000 firefighters according to the Ministry of Public Security, but the vast majority are contract workers who often leave the profession due to the high risks, gruelling working conditions and low pay.
The rest were military police officers who served a two or three-year stint with the fire service, Liu said, whereas full-time professional firefighters were employed in foreign countries. Beijing’s municipal government only started hiring full-time government firefighters in 2017, but the roughly 600 employed were just a drop in the ocean in a city with a population of more than 20 million.
Many of the firefighters who died on Sunday came from the military police, with several having only joined two years ago. But one of the commanders of the firefighting unit who died had been a firefighter for 19 years.
“The [firefighters from the armed police] have only just finished training and have not acquired enough experience to do this highly specialised job well before they go somewhere else,” Liu said. “So these firefighters’ experience will never be enough.
( https://www.scmp.com/news/china/society/article/3004865/deadly-forest-blaze-china-sparks-debate-over-numbers-and )
Thanks for that article.
When it comes to wildland firefighting, looks like training issues, misplaced priorities, trying to save a buck, “acceptable losses” and trying to keep the whole thing running by marketing the whole “culture of bravery” thing are obviously GLOBAL issues and not just confined to the U.S. of A.
As it turns out… the DEATH TOLL for that Sichuan incident now stands at 31.
Apparently, there was another ( fourth ) ‘local volunteer’ who was killed, and didn’t make it into the official memorial service(s).
Can’t find his name anywhere… and no word yet on whether this additional firefighter was one of the one of the seven who had to jump off the cliff, or whether he was with the main group of 30 that got caught in the burnover.
The Washington Post
Article Title: China says lightning caused forest fire that killed 31
Published: April 5, 2019 ( Via the Associated Press, China division )
https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/asia_pacific/china-says-lightning-caused-forest-fire-that-killed-31/2019/04/05/5119cd68-5808-11e9-aa83-504f086bf5d6_story.html?noredirect=on&utm_term=.7a25d749454f
From that article…
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BEIJING — Lighting sparked a forest fire in mountainous western China last month that killed 27 firefighters and FOUR local helpers in one of the country’s deadliest days for first responders, investigators said.
Acting on accounts of eyewitnesses in Sichuan province’s Muli county, investigators located an 18-meter (59-foot) pine tree split by lightning that they identified as the fire’s origin point. They said that after igniting the tree, the fire spread to the thick layer of decomposed plant material on the ground known as humus lying in a remote area at an altitude of around 3,800 meters (12,500 feet.)
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I did a little Education on the Kern River Ranger District. Use to be The Cannel Meadow RD.
Consolidated with the Hot Springs RD. So it is Huge. Has two Hot Shot Crews (IR). The Fulton HS established in 1964. The Breckenridge HS established 20+ years ago. That means there are several Heavy Eng. and several Prevention Patrols. From what I read Abby was the Batt. Chief or the old in my head Asst. Dist. FMO in charge of the Fire Prevention on the Dist. Another ADFMO would be in charge of the Eng. crews Maybe 6 Eng. And the DFMO would possibly be in charge of the IRHS and the Two Asst.
So a lot of overhead on this Dist. Which may be part of the problem. The Batt. Chiefs would be GS-9s along with the Superintendents.
The Hume Lake Dist. Has the other crew The Horseshoe Meadows HS.
The Old Tule River Ranger Dist. took over the Other Half of the old Hot Springs Dist.
Like I said a lot of changes since I worked there. We got the job done with one hell of a lot less people and grade levels. OLD SCHOOL
Thanks for the info!
I still wish BC Abby Bolt had ‘elaborated’ ( in her resignation letter ) on what she said were obvious “human factors” issues in that district that she was also strongly suggesting could easily lead to “fatalities”… and that no one was willing to do anything about it.
That could mean a lot of things.
Was she ( possibly ) suggesting that one ( or more? ) of those “crews” based in that district are just ( currently ) an “accident looking for a place to happen”?
Could be hard to say what the hiring and qualifications are any more. I know they have gone to a Collage degree for GS9s and above. Fire Qualifications soso.
Like I said it aint what it use to be. If you are a graduate Forester you can apply for Supervisory Fire jobs.
Below are some of the specific references from BC Abby Bolt’s resignation letter that describe that USFS Ranger District as a “nightmare”, and a “dangerous environment”, filled with “hazardous behavior” and “hazardous human factors” that can lead to DEADLY outcomes ( fatalities )… and that she was ( and is still ) in FEAR for the PHYSICAL SAFETY of employees there.
This all seems to be a totally separate issue from whatever “harassment” she has been experiencing on that same “nightmare” USFS district.
ALL of these quotes from her resignation letter seem to be raising another total RED FLAG and suggesting that people are very likely to get KILLED on that Ranger District if someone doesn’t “do something” about the situation there.
But she didn’t elaborate. I wish she would… before people DO get killed.
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“Had I not held a deep motivation to hang on and fight, I would have silently promoted up and out of this disastrous work environment long ago at the suggestion of many leaders who reached out to recruit me in order to get away from the continuous HAZARDOUS behavior within this Forest.”
“But is that what you want? Quality individuals to leave DANGEROUS work environments because they know that option is safer than speaking up? ”
“Many HAZARDOUS supervisors are being protected and retained by the mantra, “we must protect the agency” instead of corrected or removed after their behaviors are reported.”
“Many things I have experienced the last few years have been similar to the ‘stuff’ FATALITY investigations are made of.”
“I have tried repeatedly to share my concerns and relate them to HAZARDOUS human factors and actions that play a part in the Swiss Cheese Model which can lead to DEADLY outcomes.”
“I stood up for my employees and their SAFETY.”
“There WERE, and more than likely still ARE, blatant SAFETY issues not being addressed and dismissed altogether.”
“I fear for the PHYSICAL and emotional SAFETY of those working on the Kern River Ranger District.”
This District is an absolute mess, a NIGHTMARE for those who serve and have served under the current regime. It doesn’t take a genius to figure out why people have left or are leaving.”
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Hey Fred! You will be able to find the next WLF discrimination complaint somewhere in this book! There are HUGE problems with management and there is systemic gender discrimination in tye WLF community, but PBS was way off target🎯 you know…IMHO.
https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/6060450-wild-heat
Oh…and one more thing. We need those Terminal Assholes to stop covering up fire disasters and do honest and professional SAIR’s by honest and professional SAIT’s, but conflating the issues isn’t the answer. IMHO.
OMGosh!!! This is a MUST read!
Wild Heat
(Hot Shots: Men of Fire #1)
by Bella Andre (Goodreads Author)
3.99 · Rating details · 5,481 ratings · 278 reviews
HE’S A HOTSHOT FIREFIGHTER ADDICTED TO RISK. SHE’S THE SULTRY BEAUTY HE NEVER SAW COMING.
Maya Jackson doesn’t sleep with strangers. Until the night grief sent her to the nearest bar and into the arms of the most explosive lover she’s ever had. Six months later, the dedicated arson investigator is coming face to face with him again. Gorgeous, grinning Logan Cain. Her biggest mistake. Now her number-one suspect in a string of deadly wildfires.
Risking his life on a daily basis is what gets Logan up in the morning. As leader of the elite Tahoe Pines Hotshot Crew, he won’t back down from a blaze-or from beautiful, lethal Maya Jackson. She may have seduced him with her tears and her passion, but it’ll be a cold day in hell before Logan lets down his guard again. Until Maya’s life is threatened. With his natural-born hero instincts kicking in, Logan vows to protect the woman sworn to bring him down. And as desire reignites, nothing-not the killer fire or the killer hot on their trail-can douse the flames…. (less)
OMGosh…I found MORE! This book just keeps getting better and better. I have already ordered my copy.
Auntee rates it…⭐️⭐️⭐️⭐️
Who doesn’t love a brave, hunky firefighter? This new series by Bella Andre is all about firefighters, but not the kind we are familiar with who fight structure fires, but the kind who fight wildfires. They’re called wildland firefighters, or Hotshots, and they battle blazes like forest fires continuously off and on for about nine months out of the year, mainly out West. This series sounded promising to me, so I had high expectations, and for the most part, it delivered. Sure, there were some predictable moments (why do the heroines always sleep with the heroes and then think “Whoops, that was a mistake. I don’t want to fall for this guy and risk losing another person I love to a dangerous job–my heart can’t take it!”), and a few moments where I rolled my eyes and said “What?”, but I decided to go with it and have fun. And I did. Of course it helped that the H/H were so hot together that they nearly spontaneously combusted (pun intended)!
Maya Jackson’s an arson investigator for Cal Fire, but she’s in Lake Tahoe, Nevada on personal business. She’s come to pick up the belongings of her younger brother Tony, a firefighter who was killed in an apartment fire and died a hero a few days earlier. Overcome with grief at losing yet another member of her family (her beloved father, a former firefighter, had recently died), Maya feels like she needs some liquid courage to face the sad task ahead of her. So she heads off down the street from her brother’s cottage, looking for a bar or restaurant. Tahoe Pines Bar & Grill–that will do. Darn, it’s closed–the sign says come back at 5 pm. After pounding on the door, a sinfully sexy guy with shoulders out to here takes pity on her and lets her in. After a couple of whiskeys and a few answered questions, Maya is overcome with something (grief, lust?) grabs the guy and plants one on him. Things progress to the point of “Oh God”, what have I done?” and the next thing you know, Maya’s out the door, before Mr. Sexy can get her name or number.
Fast forward six months, and Maya’s back in Tahoe. Still looking for answers into the fire that killed her brother, Maya requests for a chance to work on the Desolation Wilderness wildfire, as it will keep her in the Lake Tahoe area. This fire’s origins look suspicious and may be arson, and all signs are pointing to fireman Logan Cain as the prime suspect. Even though Logan has had an outstanding career as a Hotshot, heroically saving many lives and expensive real estate in his 15 year career, that all means nothing when you’re reported to be in the wrong place at the right time, and an anonymous tipster fingers you as an arsonist. So Maya comes to check this guy out, and watches as he and another firefighter narrowly outrun a rampaging fire to rescue one of their crew members. When Maya gets close enough to interview him about the Desolation Wilderness wildfire, she realizes he’s the same guy she had her way with at the Tahoe Pines Bar & Grill! Can you say conflict of interest?
Well, of course Logan remembers Maya (he thought she was the sexiest woman he’d ever been with), and he’s not through with her. He knows there’s something there, and the feeling is mutual. But Maya’s got a job to do, finds out some rather incriminating stuff in Logan’s past, and since Logan is guilty until proven innocent, he’s suspended from his job. Logan professes his innocence, and Maya wants to believe him, and after talking to his co-workers and hearing nothing but good things about the man he’s become, she starts thinking of other possibilities. Does somebody have it in for Logan? Is someone trying to frame him?
After a couple of attempts on her and Logan’s life, it’s clear that Logan is not the arsonist. Maya and Logan work together to figure out who could be doing this. Working together in close contact heats up the passion between them, and soon Maya and Logan heat up the bedroom. Very erotic, but very confusing for Maya. Does she want to risk her heart on a man who could go to work one day and never return to her? Is she strong enough for that? Can she afford to say those three little words that Logan wants to hear?
This was a sexy read. Maya was a pretty brave, strong woman, and a smart cookie. Thankfully she didn’t keep pursuing Logan as a suspect because even I could see that he was being framed. The author throws out a handful of possible suspects and of course at first I guessed wrong! I’m not sure I was totally sold on the reasons the real arsonist acted the way they did (this is when I said “What?”), and at times I was thinking “this is a little preposterous” during the final showdown between Maya and this wacko, but what the heck, I went with it. And if it brought Maya and Logan together, so much the better.
Of course the best part of the story was the relationship between Maya and Logan, and whenever they were together the pages came alive. Although I wanted to check Maya’s head for rocks a few times when she considered walking away from Logan–this guy was the complete package, and only a fool would give him up!
So to sum up, this was a good beginning to the series (which shows a lot of promise because there’s plenty of hot firefighters who were introduced). A little suspense, a hot romance, and I learned something about wildland firefighters (very brave guys). I’m looking forward to the next installment of this series, titled Hot as Sin A Novel, about Logan’s buddy Sam MacKenzie. 4 stars. (less)
OMGosh…MORE?!!?
Shawna rates it…4 ⭐️ ⭐️⭐️⭐️
I was eagerly anticipating the first book, “Wild Heat”, in the new ‘Hot Shots: Men of Fire’ series about wildland firefighters because a) who doesn’t love a heroic hot-as-sin firefighter?, b) it’s classified as romantic suspense, and c) author Bella Andre writes some fairly steamy sex scenes. The fact that the series focuses on wildland firefighters who battle dangerous forest fires for 6-9 months out of the year is a